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00:10:04 <nooga> you can't even count
00:10:16 <nooga> and you call yourself a mathematician
00:14:36 <cpressey> HAM: the graphics mode of the greenish fringe.
00:15:11 <cpressey> If you were a true artist, though, you could work with the medium...
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00:46:18 <cpressey> i'm not quite following the convention in use, it seems
00:47:52 <cpressey> madbr: i had a thought while walking home... you could implement double-buffering in hardware
00:48:05 <cpressey> even frames read video from bank 1... odd frames, bank 2
00:48:16 <cpressey> then main CPU can write to the other bank with no contention
00:48:41 <cpressey> (for some value of "no contention")
00:50:13 <nooga> how do you guys like Go ?
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00:56:48 <madbr> cpressey: that's not a bad scheme but that means you have like 3 separate DRAM banks
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01:01:04 <madbr> cpressey: would be good for something like an architecture based around the Cold Fire (modern 68k variant for embedded platforms)
01:04:22 <cpressey> madbr: yeah, thinking some more, the easiest way to get "no contention" is to really have two seperate buses. pretty wasteful...
01:11:37 <nooga> i'm looking for a name for fast regexp engine
01:43:44 <cpressey> nooga: um... SuperZippyMatchMatchLib ?
01:44:35 <madbr> I'm not sure how much "no contention" is worth, especially in a system based around fast page ram
01:47:43 <nooga> i think that i finally made something useful
01:48:28 <nooga> optimizing jit compiler for regexp, how cool is that
01:50:50 <Gregor> That ... actually is useful.
01:50:53 <Gregor> What language is it in?
01:56:40 <Gregor> What architectures does it JIT to?
01:56:46 <Gregor> How much regex does it support?
01:56:51 <nooga> i think i could make an interface simmilar to pcre's one and then try to compile projects using pcre with my awesome lib
01:57:05 <Gregor> I'd integrate it into Plof.
01:57:29 <nooga> i'll release the src soon
01:57:38 <nooga> oh, and it's only for x86 for now
01:57:47 <Gregor> Add x86_64 and you've got everything :P
01:58:07 <nooga> maybe someone will help with that ;]
02:00:21 <cpressey> nooga: That's... Frege'n cool :)
02:11:56 <cpressey> madbr: Well, I like multi-processor architectures (oldskool ones, I mean), but I'd rather not think about coordination.
02:12:11 <cpressey> basically i just like thinking about different ways you could do a system
02:13:30 <madbr> dunno, I grew up on VGA which fixed all of that
02:14:15 <cpressey> Neither here nor there: you could have one processor A simulate memory for another processor B. A memory fetch from A actually goes to B's input ports. B suspends A until it has computed whatever it wants A to think it read. then it makes it available to A. very useful stuff!
02:14:29 <cpressey> hm, i mixed up A and B there didn't I
02:16:56 <cpressey> Here's one thing I wanted to try but probably never will
02:18:21 <cpressey> Get an old PC, one with a parallel printer port. Wire up a couple of the pins to produce NTSC-level signals (-0.5, 0.5, 1.5V? It's something like that, but I don't remember.) Then implement in software (x86 assembly) a driver which produces an image. The project would be called "PPTV", for "Parallel Port TV"
02:18:42 <cpressey> All of the hsyncs and vsyncs done in software, that is
02:19:12 <cpressey> the hardware is trivial, just a couple of transistors and resistors
02:20:17 <madbr> you'd need some device that outputs at some really high rate no?
02:20:51 <cpressey> Well... I admit the parallel port might not be quite fast enough... or at least you would have wiiide pixels
02:21:46 <madbr> I'd try to hack a vga mode
02:22:56 <pikhq> cpressey: Oh, the parallel port ought to be fast enough, presuming you're intending to produce unmodulated signals.
02:23:07 <pikhq> Granted, you're probably not going to get high resolution.
02:23:35 <madbr> since vga has a bunch of timing registers, you could probably get a mode where you write raw ntsc signal to the vga green channel
02:23:50 <madbr> then remap that channel to appropriate voltages
02:24:09 <pikhq> And technically you're not going to be producing an NTSC signal, but rather a system M signal.
02:24:34 <pikhq> (I highly doubt you'll get color)
02:24:38 <cpressey> pikhq: unmodulated in the sense of B&W? yes. i figure, on old machines, the parallel port is basically as fast as the CPU (modulo the CIA chip... no it's call the 8??? chip on PCs... yes well ok)
02:24:55 <pikhq> cpressey: Unmodulated in the sense of not on radio waves.
02:25:38 <madbr> vga is 0 to 0.7v, composite is 0 to 1.073v :/
02:25:39 <pikhq> System M is the black & white standard most commonly used alongside NTSC color.
02:25:51 <cpressey> pikhq: um, no. Just (what I thought was) a pure NTSC driver signal. If it was a broadcast, it would be, *after* it has been received and ... decoded or whatever television would call that.
02:26:16 <pikhq> cpressey: NTSC = color.
02:26:32 <cpressey> pikhq: Really. Then that book I read was seriously fudging terminology.
02:26:38 <pikhq> cpressey: And yes, that's called "unmodulated", meaning it's not been modulated onto a radio wave.
02:27:41 <cpressey> at any rate, it would have to be under DOS, because I wouldn't trust anything else to let me frob the parallel port in realtime.
02:28:05 <madbr> I suggest: hack a 640x240 256 color 60hz vga mode, then reduce vga blank to as short as possible so that it correspons to NTSC sync
02:28:07 <pikhq> NTSC is a color standard. One could quite feasibly stick it onto, say, system I (used in the UK) or system L (France)...
02:28:18 <cpressey> what I mean is, NO, I was not planning to do this IN PYTHON ON NETBSD.
02:28:32 <pikhq> Much like you can stick PAL onto system M.
02:28:38 <pikhq> (which is done in Brazil)
02:28:41 <madbr> might be better with 1280x240 16 color mode, dunno
02:29:01 <cpressey> /join #tarpits_and_unix_and_modhacks_and_topology
02:31:56 <pikhq> Oh, yeah, and Britain's old 405 line system A, which was broadcast with (at varying times) NTSC, PAL, and SECAM.
02:32:17 <cpressey> madbr: what you suggest sounds... difficult for the likes of myself.
02:32:49 <cpressey> pikhq: I could seriously never wrap my head around the colour signal transmission. It requires, like, sine waves an' stuff.
02:33:03 <cpressey> Sorry, not transmission. I mean, even unmodulated.
02:33:18 <cpressey> Then again, I alredy know I'm getting my info from questionable sources
02:33:27 <cpressey> that are leading me to believe that NTSC includes B&W.
02:34:09 <cpressey> Although, the NTSC colour bars test pattern is pretty cool, and imagining how to produce it with an analog circuit... difficult but not impossible.
02:34:12 <pikhq> *Aaaaaaaaarrrgh*. NTSC is a standards body, one of their standards includes system M TV.
02:34:20 <pikhq> Meaning one could say NTSC includes B&W.
02:34:49 <cpressey> IT WAS A BOOK ON PIC MICROCONTROLLERS, OK?
02:34:53 <pikhq> Of course, this is about on par with saying ISO includes tea, so.
02:36:28 * pikhq looks at digital broadcast standards and sighs
02:36:40 <pikhq> Why couldn't we have just gotten a single bloody standard?
02:37:27 <pikhq> But *noooo*. US, Japan, and China had to make their own.
02:37:44 <pikhq> And then people had to adopt them.
02:40:13 <madbr> cpressey: yeah dunno if it's possible still
02:40:47 <pikhq> ... And Brazil had to be different too.
02:40:58 <pikhq> Adopt the Japanese standard and then use a different codec.
02:46:34 <cpressey> And yet, if *I* devise *my* own standard and start broadcasting using it, the FCC will be on my ass. Makes no sense.
02:47:26 <pikhq> I do declare that the technology behind TV broadcasting sucks.
02:47:48 <cpressey> I dunno, is there even such thing as Ham TV? As in Ham Radio, not as in hold-and-modify mode.
02:48:09 <cpressey> Cool then. ONE thing makes sense.
02:48:25 <pikhq> Common TV sets can actually pick them up.
02:48:45 <pikhq> The ham band used for it happens to be CATV channels 57 through 60.
02:51:25 <cpressey> values of β will give rise to dom!
02:53:12 <pikhq> Really, it's kinda comical that we're still using radio waves for *TV*...
02:53:42 <pikhq> Wouldn't it make sense to make good broadband universal, and then stop using giant swathes of precious radio space for television?
03:00:01 <cpressey> pikhq: Yes, but I have to ask: what else would we use it for? More... radio?
03:00:37 <pikhq> cpressey: INTERNET
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03:00:53 <pikhq> Replace the entire used radio spectrum with IP.
03:01:28 <madbr> but then the mobile phone guys will want that spectrum too
03:01:43 * cpressey can't stand "Mike in the Morning"
03:01:51 <pikhq> madbr: Fuck the phone network.
03:02:05 <pikhq> It shall be the only data transmission system.
03:02:58 <madbr> sure but good luck convincing the mobile phone guys to give up their money printing machine
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03:14:13 <cpressey> I'm broken. Please show this to someone who can fix can fix
03:24:38 <cpressey> JOBCNTRL ER 2211 : IT'S NOT NICE TO FOOL POP! >he 2211 YOU JUST TRIED TO FAKE-OUT MOTHER NATURE, AND SHE CAUGHT YOU! SUPER-VULCAN NOW HAS YOUR NAME ON HIS ENEMY LIST, AND YOU CAN BE CERTAIN THAT FUTURE ATTEMPTS TO RESOURCE LFN 0,3,OR 6 WILL RESULT IN YOUR BEING ABORTED, SPINDLED, MANGLED, FOLDED, PUNCHED, DELETED, AND DEALLOCATED.
03:32:49 <cpressey> .. line 2706 compiler error: schain botch
03:33:21 <cpressey> Aye, schain botch! Mnae aile fnalga pschain!
04:13:11 <cpressey> soooo. thue.c updates the state of the program with 'sprintf("...", dataspace, ...)'
04:13:39 <cpressey> good thing dataspace is statically defined to be 16K bytes
04:15:07 <cpressey> (oh and it doesn't compile with DICE C under AmigaOS 1.3 either. DICE likes to generate assembly that it can
04:17:06 <pikhq> Have you considered means of suicide?
04:18:40 <cpressey> pikhq: I'm broken. Please show this to someone who can fix can fix
04:18:47 <pikhq> I hear se'hůku is quite effective.
04:20:21 <cpressey> the cure for the DICE C woes is apparently to not have such big static datas. just malloc instead.
04:20:45 <pikhq> Data is plural you fool.
04:24:48 <madbr> isn't it usually used as a mass noun
04:25:12 <madbr> like "that's a lot of mud" "that's a lot of data"
04:25:26 <cpressey> the cure for the DICE C woes is apparently to have not such big static muds.
04:25:46 <madbr> pikhq: data is plural in latin
04:26:16 <cpressey> also, random() is not ANSI C? it is just widely supported? blargh.
04:26:50 <pikhq> madbr: Okay, fine, mass noun.
04:26:56 <cpressey> istr the lowest few bits of rand() are bad news
04:26:58 <pikhq> Though singular is datum dammit.
04:28:59 <cpressey> why not just reverse the order of bits being returned from rand()
04:29:17 <cpressey> well let's see how bad it is first
04:31:53 <madbr> in english I bet analysis would show that "data" is already more or less singular
04:32:22 <madbr> ex: "the data is very good" vs "the data are very good"
04:32:55 <cpressey> it's a mass noun. "the water is very good" and "we don't have enough water on this yet"
04:33:49 <cpressey> actually damn, everything can be mass-nouned
04:33:59 <cpressey> "we don't have enough mousepad yet"
04:33:59 <madbr> most latin plurals don't tranlate to english
04:33:59 <Gregor> I have three water in my one data.
04:34:21 <madbr> * "the orange is very good" ? (when talking about many)
04:34:49 <madbr> cpressey: that's at minimum idiomatic
04:35:31 <madbr> yeah I guess for those guys everything is mass noun-able
04:35:51 <madbr> though there's some semantic transformation going in there
04:35:52 <cpressey> once "product" is a mass noun, any specialization of it can be too... it's only a little awkward
04:36:30 <madbr> cpressey: nah, I don't think the fact that "product" can be mass-noun trickles down
04:37:27 <lament> madbr: like cpressey said its a mass noun
04:37:37 <lament> which is why "a data" sounds ridiculous
04:37:39 <madbr> lament: yep. still singular though.
04:38:06 <lament> singular/plural doesn't apply to mass nouns
04:38:13 <lament> but "a datum" is still an English word
04:38:23 <cpressey> allocate you these datas more quicker
04:38:28 <madbr> see: "the waters were very calm this morning"
04:38:38 <madbr> but yeah it's very unusual for mass nouns to be plural
04:39:10 <madbr> "the muds are different. this one is clean, but the other one is radioactive."
04:40:16 <cpressey> screw it. let's all just talk like jar-jar binks
04:40:46 <madbr> I wish people stopped trying to import latin plurals/singulars in english
04:45:12 <cpressey> http://www.worldwidewords.org/weirdwords/ww-zen1.htm
04:50:19 <cpressey> soooooooo.... getline() in DICE C apparently sucks in the ENTIRE FILE.
05:01:24 <Gregor> Once you tack on libgc, C is pretty much great, actually.
05:01:29 <Gregor> But non-GC'd languages are nastysauce.
05:02:38 <cpressey> soooooo.... thue.c appears to take exactly ONE command-line flag, for some reason. either -l, OR -r, OR -d. NO COMBOS.
05:04:36 <pikhq> Gregor: libgc even makes up for a lot of the sins of C++.
05:05:11 <cpressey> AND the command line switches are NOT preceded with a -. They just ARE THERE. Sorry, SWITCH, plural.
05:05:16 <Gregor> pikhq: Just get rid of references and C++ is starting to look OK!
05:06:25 <Gregor> cpressey: At least they're not preceded by a / ;)
05:09:00 <cpressey> Gregor: I used + for some 'internal' switches at work today, to not conflict with - or -- ... taking a lesson from Mr. Povray, there.
05:09:30 <Gregor> Some things use + to mean "enable" and - to mean "disable"
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05:10:04 <cpressey> Gregor: right, so I concluded it wasn't utter BLASPHEMY for me to use it. still, i fear the code review.
05:10:24 <pikhq> Aaaaaaw. The Prop. 8 case won't be appealed.
05:10:44 <cpressey> hopefully it will include "no silly, THIS is how you put hooks into the command line options"
05:10:48 <pikhq> I wanted that to hit the SCOTUS and become a nation-wide ruling.
05:11:33 <cpressey> Gregor: The possibility of using / flitted through my head for 0.81 seconds
05:11:46 <pikhq> (as Prop. 8 was overthrown on the basis that banning gay marriage was against the US constitution, that would make it legal throughout the US.)
05:11:58 <Gregor> cpressey: How about *? %?
05:12:35 <pikhq> ... And it would've been almost impossible for it to be decided any other way, because of how appeals work.
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05:20:16 <Gregor> pikhq: PERHAPS why they didn't appeal it :P
05:20:30 <Gregor> pikhq: However, gay marriage would still be unrecognized in Texas.
05:20:45 <Gregor> Since Texas' law is perfectly equal-rights.
05:25:18 <pikhq> Gregor: It would be appealed by the State of California.
05:26:11 <pikhq> Oh, wait. The Supreme Court of California is just not *ordering* the State of California to appeal it.
05:26:15 <pikhq> They still have the option.
05:26:24 <pikhq> ... To appeal it and defend it horribly (as it already has been)
05:27:19 <Gregor> Heh, if precedent is set nationwide, A) yay another Rowe-v-Wade debacle for 100 years, B) this country approaches tolerable :P
05:27:44 <Gregor> I never remember that spelling
05:35:20 <pikhq> Gregor: It's technically already nationwide precedent, even though the ruling is not *in effect* outside of California.
05:35:26 <pikhq> You see, it was made in a federal court.
05:35:36 <pikhq> BTW, the jurisdiction of courts is confusing.
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05:38:45 <cpressey> ummm, la cucaracha? enrinyes. who writes C code like this? good night
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12:15:18 <nooga> must.... c.... code!!!!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAARGHHHHHHHHHHH
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15:29:35 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
15:30:02 <HackEgo> awklisp \ babies \ bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ qw.pl \ share \ tmpdir.3201 \ wunderbar_emporium
15:32:08 <HackEgo> awklisp \ babies/ \ bin/ \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1/ \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste/ \ poetry.txt \ quotes/ \ qw.pl \ share/ \ tmpdir.3483/ \ wunderbar_emporium/
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15:59:05 <fizzie> Were you studying something? If so, maybe you could get course credits for that.
15:59:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I could certainly get something in physics for it..
16:00:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Since my best plan involved piloting an RC plane with a sticky net on it and swiping the hat.
16:01:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I think that a zelda oot style hookshot might work
16:01:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Besides, it carries a not insignificant risk of killing the Pope, and I would get in lots of trouble for that.
16:01:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, security arrangement would have time to react with a RC plane. They aren't very fast
16:02:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, also just restore from last save if you fuck it up?
16:02:57 <fizzie> The popeguards might also react rather violently if you pull out anything even remotely gun-like and point it at the pope.
16:03:33 <fizzie> I'd go with a swarm of trained monkeys. Anything can be improved with some monkeys, after all.
16:03:39 <Phantom_Hoover> "Didleidleidleidleidle... duh duh duh duh!" "You got the *Pope's Hat*!"
16:04:09 <Vorpal> hm... how are those sci-fi tractor beams supposed to work? Maybe you could invent that in reality
16:04:36 <Vorpal> hm, sounds a bit non-specific
16:04:50 <fizzie> "In Star Trek, tractor beams are imagined to work by placing a target in the focus of a subspace/graviton interference pattern created by two beams from an emitter. When the beams are manipulated correctly the target is drawn along with the interference pattern. The target may be moved toward or away from the emitter by changing the polarity of the beams."
16:04:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Unless I'm careful, I could end up stealing the Pope, and that would be pretty annoying.
16:05:09 <fizzie> That Wikipedia quote doesn't exactly tell you how to build one, though.
16:05:47 <fizzie> Maybe you could go to Radio Shack or something and buy a subspace/graviton emitter kit.
16:05:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, invent time travel, and go back in time and insert a metal bit in the hat when it is being manufactured. Then go back to now and use a strong magnet
16:06:30 <Phantom_Hoover> However, I may end up stealing the Popemobile and a few of the Pope guards' guns.
16:07:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ah, go back in time and change the blueprints to use non-magnetic material
16:07:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hire MacGyver?
16:08:15 <fizzie> Time travel always also has the "meet yourself and cause a spontaneous reality failure, or some other technobabble" risk.
16:08:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Would need very strong glue to snag the hat, and may end up snagging his head as well.
16:09:49 <fizzie> oklofok: But you get those "frequent flier" complimentary years if you do a lot of it.
16:09:57 <Phantom_Hoover> And then I come back to the present and everyone is a giant iguana or something.
16:10:04 <Sgeo> http://qntm.org/golden
16:11:03 <Phantom_Hoover> There are plenty of stories where time travel malfunctions aren't the plot driver.
16:11:47 <fizzie> Before proceeding with the plot, you must install the plot driver. Do you want Windows to search Windows Update for it, or have disk?
16:12:28 * Sgeo steals fizzie's hat
16:12:31 <oklofok> i mean when i watch a movie with any sort of scifi in it, i have to constantly stop thinking about some detail, because it simply does not make sense, so no use trying to find any; when time travel is introduced, i instantly *have to stop thinking altogether*, there's a special time travel watching mode where i just say "ok" no matter what happens, it's like they suddenly showed 10 minutes of black screen
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16:13:12 <oklofok> when there's time travel involved, absolutely nothing makes sense
16:13:31 <fizzie> Sgeo: For hat-stealing, Gregor is probably a better target.
16:13:44 <Sgeo> Hmm, good point
16:13:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, are you and Gregor sufficiently near to attempt a hat heist?
16:13:57 * Sgeo bodyswaps fizzie and Gregor
16:16:18 <Sgeo> SG-1 seems to use two incompatible models of time-travel
16:16:48 <cpressey1> oklofok: I forget everything from the past half hour and assume I'm watching a different movie
16:17:17 <Sgeo> What about movies like Primer? (Note: I haven't watched Primer)
16:17:29 <cpressey1> actually no, i don't really mind time travel in fiction, except when it's amateurish
16:19:28 <oklofok> i don't mind time travel if it's in say futurama, but the more it tries to be non-amateurish the more bullshitty it gets
16:19:41 <oklofok> or at least i haven't seen anyone do it in a remotely sensible way
16:19:53 <cpressey1> yeah, that might be a better way to put it.
16:20:12 <oklofok> you mean, saying the exact opposite of what you said might be better put?
16:20:14 <cpressey1> like if you try to build a serious *plot* around it... fail
16:20:44 <cpressey1> oklofok: i am one dangerously confused entity!
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16:22:41 <oklofok> i don't know what primer is but is it the last one of xkcd's "where do the dudes go" graphs in that one comic?
16:23:05 <oklofok> also i have no uni tomorrow :(
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17:31:14 * Sgeo makes some antilithium for Phantom_Hoover
17:32:16 <fizzie> Here, have some dilithium crystals.
17:32:45 <Sgeo> But I think, in context, "antilithium" is funnier
17:35:34 <fizzie> Is this a new thing that Google's actual main search page does the searching as you type, without waiting for form-submitting? (And can you opt-out without being google-inlogged?)
17:38:11 <Sgeo> It's new, don't know about opting out
17:38:25 <Sgeo> FWIW, it won't show NSFW results
17:38:30 <Sgeo> Unless you press enter
17:40:08 <fizzie> It's a bit annoying on the not-slow-but-a-tiny-bit-sluggish-still Mobile Firefox (or whatever Fennec's official name was).
17:40:32 <Sgeo> "If you don't want to see results as you type, you can turn off Google Instant by clicking the link next to the search box on any search results page, or by visiting your Preferences page."
17:40:50 <Sgeo> Also, maybe google.co.uk or some other domain
17:41:13 <fizzie> Oh, they even have a name for it.
17:41:14 <Sgeo> Yeah, try google.co.uk
17:42:36 <fizzie> The tiny "instant is on" toggle helped, fortunately.
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17:50:49 <Phantom_Hoover> So a dilithium crystal is nearly a contradiction in terms.
17:55:37 <Sgeo> Surely at absolute zero, it's solid?
17:55:45 <Sgeo> Hypothetically?
17:56:07 <Sgeo> Or, um, maybe not
17:56:19 <Sgeo> Are there things that simply cannot be solidified, no matter how cold?
17:57:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Dilithium is a form of lithium; if it is cooled to 0K, it will just turn into metallic lithium.
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17:58:02 <Sgeo> Maybe a dilithium crystal is just gaseous dilithium contained in a container
17:58:13 <Sgeo> Abuse of the word crystal sure, but
17:58:36 <Phantom_Hoover> (There are things that can't be solidified at 1 atm; helium is one)
17:59:22 <Phantom_Hoover> And to be called a crystal, something needs to have a crystalline structure.
17:59:36 <Slereah> Bounce a graviton particle beam off the main reflector dish
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18:13:07 <fizzie> "By the 2360s, it was possible to recrystallize dilithium while it was still enclosed in the warp core's dilithium articulation frame using a theta-matrix compositor." http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Dilithium
18:15:19 <fizzie> It's an element, a member of the hypersonic series, atomic weight 87, symbol Dt.
18:17:45 <fizzie> Yes, but this is Star Trek. Just look at http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Table_of_Elements
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18:19:18 <Phantom_Hoover> That Star Trek periodic table reminds me of the "Look Around You" one.
18:19:44 <Slereah> Why are there three elements #1
18:19:50 <fizzie> That was atomic weight of 87, not the number of protons.
18:20:15 <Slereah> "Disneyium is a chemical element listed on the Table of Elements. It is a member of the Mega series. (TNG: "Rascals") "
18:20:26 <Slereah> One of the stupidest TNG episode
18:22:11 <Slereah> I am kind of amazed, really
18:22:28 <Slereah> Usually, SF series tend to avoid atomic numbers already used
18:22:34 <Slereah> So it's usually at least >100
18:22:41 <Slereah> But they just went for stupid
18:23:04 <fizzie> "One explanation [for the silly table] is that with the discovery of subspace, chemistry underwent a revolution to translate the subspace properties of elements." Yes, I guess that purely technically speaking is "one explanation", but...
18:23:10 <Phantom_Hoover> With SCIENCE, I conclude that dilithium is somewhere around strontium.
18:24:32 <fizzie> "exitstageleft", symbol Sn.
18:25:21 <Slereah> Apparently, most of those were shown in Rascals
18:25:25 <Slereah> And it was a silly episode
18:25:32 <fizzie> Yes, it's normally tin; there's the "Snapple" joke.
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18:44:47 <Sgeo> Factor has monads
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18:54:45 <Sgeo> I have no idea
18:55:06 <cpressey> Whatever they are has got to be better than... THE OOB BIT
19:00:22 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, are you and Gregor sufficiently near to attempt a hat heist?
19:01:33 <madbr> sgeo: I bet most ppl in here are too
19:01:57 <Sgeo> Well, we urgently need to figure out what the h- prefix means, then
19:02:13 <oerjan> <oklofok> i don't know what primer is but is it the last one of xkcd's "where do the dudes go" graphs in that one comic?
19:02:13 <Sgeo> What's the OOB bit?
19:02:40 <oerjan> i vaguely recall a mention that it has an unusually well-thought out and consistent model of time travel
19:02:54 <oerjan> or something like that
19:03:52 <oerjan> hatheists hate history
19:04:19 <alise> * Sgeo is a hatheist
19:04:19 <alise> <madbr> sgeo: I bet most ppl in here are too
19:04:38 <alise> (also, possibly, but definitely not everyone)
19:04:45 <oerjan> alise: NO YOU FAIL AT READING COMPREHENSION
19:05:12 <alise> oerjan: you are mistaking me for another :)
19:05:33 <oerjan> well it _might_ be madbr did too, but you are assuming he did when you say "fail"
19:06:27 <alise> oerjan: well my heuristics had all the data on madbr plugged in and it spat out that it's likely madbr merely thought Sgeo was making a typo
19:06:45 <madbr> alise: you're hristian? :D
19:06:50 <alise> of course, I'm not sure my heuristics are good at figuring out what someone else thinks someone else is thinking
19:06:50 <oerjan> you and your euro hysterics
19:07:00 <alise> madbr: okay, i may have been wrong :D
19:07:41 <Gregor> Posted on Facebook a while ago:
19:08:02 <Gregor> "Atheism is to religion as baldness is to hair color." (Me:) "Agnosticism is a hat."
19:08:07 <Gregor> And now you're making THE SAME COMPARISON.
19:08:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Actually, I might just need you to stand around wearing a hat while I fire a rocket at your head.
19:08:48 <alise> oerjan: IN LATIN HOW DO I TURN "X" INTO "BELIEVER IN THE EXISTENCE OF X"
19:08:50 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Why would I accept that duel when I get nothing if I win :P
19:09:12 * Gregor weighs your one hat against his 34.
19:09:23 <alise> Gregor: It is the greatest hat.
19:09:27 <Sgeo> You get whatever Phantom_Hoover steals
19:09:28 <alise> It is the Hat of Power.
19:09:29 <oerjan> alise: adding -an suffix might be a good tip
19:09:43 <Gregor> e.g. a thetan is one who believes in thet.
19:09:43 <alise> oerjan: so [god]an === theist?
19:09:54 <Sgeo> Oh, wait, was that fizzie?
19:10:09 <oerjan> possibly with an -i- in between, although that's probably from the root vowel
19:10:11 <Phantom_Hoover> I made it out of a sick bowl and a ribbon from a chocolate box IN A CAVE, WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS!
19:10:58 <oerjan> Gregor: no -t- in either of the parts
19:11:04 <alise> Then I'm an aatheistian.
19:11:07 <alise> I don't believe in atheists.
19:11:40 <oerjan> alise: of course people are likely to just borrow the greek -ist anyhow
19:12:26 <Gregor> alise: I'm an aaatheistianan. I don't believe in aatheistians.
19:12:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, OK, can you use your extensive knowledge of hats to help me steal the Pope's hat?
19:12:39 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: ... "no" *wink*
19:12:54 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: I certainly couldn't do THAT on a publicly logged channel.
19:12:57 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: OR AT ALL
19:12:57 <alise> I'm Aaaatheistianianian, and here's my friend, Ian Ian Ian.
19:13:08 <alise> His middle name is Aaaatheist.
19:13:18 <alise> He's a theist, you see.
19:13:28 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: actually people without a sense of smell
19:13:42 <madbr> is there any practical differences between atheists and agnostics anyhow?
19:14:14 <alise> some of the former are really obnoxious; most of the latter are ridiculously holier-than-thou, and don't understand how the burden of proof works
19:14:15 <Gregor> madbr: Both terms have "weak" and "strong" forms. The "weak" forms are roughly equivalent, the "strong" forms are contradictory.
19:15:02 <oerjan> Gregor: you know after this discussion you just _have_ to get a pope hat, and start wearing it
19:15:10 <Gregor> I'm apparently of the ridiculously holier-than-thou camp :P
19:15:13 <madbr> alise: that's just a difference in attitude
19:15:15 <Gregor> And I AM holier than thou.
19:15:45 <alise> Gregor: The-only-even-vaguely-sane-variety-of atheism: "From all the information we have, I find it incredibly unlikely that a god exists, and also consider that even if he possibly does, it is best to live as if he did not." The-only-even-vaguely-sane-variety-of agnosticism: "We cannot possibly know whether God exists or not! Therefore, just like my stance on Russell's teapot and the invisible pink unicorn, I will sit FIRMLY on the FENCE OF INDECISION!"
19:16:02 <alise> (Yes, I'm biased.)
19:16:18 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Read, it's very interesting. He's wrong about a lot of things and such, but, yes, read.
19:16:22 <Gregor> alise: Strong agnostics are on no fence. They merely accept futility.
19:16:25 <alise> It's definitely a worthy read.
19:16:31 <alise> Gregor: Oh, I see, you mean nihilism.
19:16:42 <Gregor> alise: Contextual nihilism :)
19:16:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes -- be smarter than me, and don't buy a paperback edition.
19:16:55 <madbr> yeah those are differences on paper
19:17:04 <madbr> I'm talking about differences in practice
19:17:21 <alise> madbr: in practice, they're just the same as moderate, non-irritating Christians.
19:17:26 <alise> i.e. you won't notice.
19:17:30 <alise> if you ask, see above.
19:17:35 <alise> so it's a bit of a silly question
19:18:00 <alise> any reasonable-ish religious or non-religious person will behave according to their personality, and assuming identical personalities, the religion shouldn't have an effect.
19:18:15 <madbr> but moderate non-irritating christians believe no?
19:18:21 <alise> indeed the US is uniquely privileged among Westernish countries in having batshit crazy people whose religion affects them like that
19:18:32 <alise> madbr: I have provided the differences in beliefs, and the differences in personalities.
19:18:35 <alise> There is no more to provide.
19:18:41 <Gregor> alise: Oh don't pretend like you don't have them in the UK too.
19:19:14 <alise> Gregor: I meant to say "almost uniquely".
19:19:29 <alise> Gregor: I'm not particularly proud of my country. :P
19:20:19 <oerjan> <Sgeo> Are there things that simply cannot be solidified, no matter how cold? <-- helium, supposedly, although this can be changed by adding pressure
19:20:48 <alise> helium is illegal in all civilised countries
19:21:27 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: They don't have as much influence as the media portrays them to have here, they're just louder.
19:22:07 <oerjan> "Unlike any other element, helium will remain liquid down to absolute zero at normal pressures."
19:22:38 <Phantom_Hoover> But you have had presidents who have openly stated that they view godlessness as inherently wrong, no?
19:23:19 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Yes ... I don't know how recently, nor do I want to check because that scares me X-D
19:24:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Meanwhile I plan to steal the Pope's hat with little resistance.
19:24:30 <oerjan> here in norway the foreign minister gets slightly raised eyebrows for being openly christian ;D
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19:25:03 <Gregor> I just signed up for my visa.
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19:25:13 <Gregor> I could probably still work at Purdue from afar ...
19:26:35 <oerjan> btw the scandal i mentioned the other day about ministers accepting fairly large private gifts has actually ended up with one of them possibly being investigated by the police, so it may not have been _entirely_ legal (btw they quickly changed the rules so from now it definitely is _not_ allowed)
19:27:03 <Phantom_Hoover> I could live off the money from selling the Pope's hat!
19:27:49 <oerjan> and the rest of them have to give their gifts away (to their departments iirc)
19:27:55 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: not afaik
19:28:17 <oerjan> but then he is not precisely a frequent visitor to our protestant country (he _has_ been here)
19:28:26 <oerjan> or wait, his predecessor has
19:30:04 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: no tuition fees in norway most places
19:30:16 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if Googling "aerodynamic properties of pope hat" will be helpful.
19:30:36 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: were you scottish? in which case you might even get in...
19:30:39 <pikhq> oerjan: How easy is it to learn Norwegian?
19:30:59 <oerjan> pikhq: very easy, i knew it from i was a wee child
19:31:10 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: You're an EU citizen; piece of cake to get there.
19:31:24 <pikhq> oerjan: For non-native speakers.
19:31:28 <oerjan> (it has genders like german, but otherwise i don't think it has much that is harder than english.)
19:31:48 <oerjan> it is rather related, after all
19:32:04 <pikhq> Different branch of the Germanic languages, though.
19:32:24 <pikhq> (granted, English has borrowed massive chunks from North Germanic languages, but it's still *West* Germanic.)
19:32:41 <oerjan> it does _not_ have cases like german
19:32:50 <alise> <Gregor> I just signed up for my visa. ;; ha ha non-EU resident
19:33:07 <oerjan> nor does it have personal endings on verbs like english and german
19:33:09 <pikhq> Yes. English's lack of cases for the most part is one of those borrowings. :P
19:33:11 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, I want to live in Norway now. ;; arrive, register at a police station; you're now a British citizen residing in Norway as a European citizen. you can even vote
19:33:46 <oerjan> erm vote? i thought there was _some_ delay for that, and only for local elections
19:33:48 <Sgeo> alise, why didn't you do that?
19:34:10 <oerjan> i vaguely recall 3 years, although they may have lessened it
19:34:29 <alise> oerjan: i'm pretty sure any EU citizen has the right to vote wherever they reside
19:34:31 <alise> perhaps there is a delay
19:34:38 <alise> i may be wrong, though
19:34:42 <oerjan> alise: well norway isn't strictly eu
19:35:00 <oerjan> no, it's eea or what it's called
19:35:04 <alise> Sgeo: i elided the difficult part: finding residence in Norway while in another country
19:35:10 <pikhq> alise: Norway is not EU. It's in the EEA and a member of Schengen, but not EU.
19:35:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: try Sweden.
19:35:22 <oerjan> that's the same for finding work though
19:35:59 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it sort of is
19:35:59 <pikhq> The UK is *partially* in the Schengen agreement.
19:36:03 <alise> it is, but not in a way that is nice
19:36:06 <oerjan> (it means we're in the common market for all but a few exceptions like agriculture)
19:36:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: but you CAN use it to go out
19:36:10 <alise> if you have a passport
19:36:13 <alise> people just can't use it to go in
19:36:19 <pikhq> It's just not part of the Schengen *Zone*.
19:36:36 <alise> The Schengen agreement is absolutely wonderful.
19:36:43 <pikhq> As an EU citizen, though, you have the right to be anywhere in the Schengen Zone.
19:36:55 <pikhq> ... And as a UK citizen, you have the right to be anywhere in the UK or Ireland.
19:36:57 <alise> Perhaps the only sane decision on immigration made in recent years.
19:37:04 <pikhq> alise: It really, truly is.
19:37:20 <Gregor> Wait, does this mean that UK citizens have free reign over the rest of the EU, but EU citizens need visas to work in the UK?
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19:37:34 <alise> Gregor: But put it this way:
19:37:40 <alise> We're fucking running away!
19:37:43 <pikhq> Though the visas are very *easy* to get for EU citizens.
19:38:04 <alise> pikhq: Which is why we have a wonderful supply of Polish people to clean our windows!</things that should never be said?>
19:38:11 <pikhq> oerjan: Apparently you need to be a Norwegian citizen to vote in parliamentary elections, but if you've been in Norway for 3 years you can vote in local elections.
19:38:30 <alise> pikhq: That sucks.
19:38:33 <pikhq> ... And the King of Norway is not a citizen.
19:38:38 <oerjan> pikhq: btw norwegian has a pretty much similar mess of phrasal verbs like english i think, just different ones.
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19:38:46 <alise> the Queen has no passport
19:38:51 <alise> as they are issued in the Queen's name
19:39:09 <alise> "So what," they reason, "is the point of having her declare herself able to travel on a piece of paper, if she could do the declaration in person?"
19:39:15 <Phantom_Hoover> alise presumably wants to go to Norway to avoid the NHS, but I have no idea why Phantom_Hoover does.
19:39:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The NHS have released their grip, it seems; but I simply don't like this country much.
19:39:51 <Sgeo> alise, come to America! >:D
19:39:52 <alise> In Norway they have blackjack and hookers^W^W^Wfast internet and a saner government.
19:39:58 <alise> Sgeo: I would rather die.
19:40:35 <oerjan> <alise> Sgeo: i elided the difficult part: finding residence in Norway while in another country <-- hey do like the gypsies^Wromanians and live in a tent
19:40:51 <alise> oerjan: err romas are not romanians
19:41:08 * Phantom_Hoover decides to try to kill alise unless he goes to the US.
19:41:16 <alise> fuck gypsies though.
19:41:44 <pikhq> Oh, wait. The EEA agreement also requires free movement between members, just not with the limitation on all border checks.
19:41:52 <alise> I haven't ever read a single thing about them from any source that even attempts to contradict their image of being thieving parasites with no concern for the society they leech off of.
19:42:06 <pikhq> As such, citizens of the EU have the right to be in the UK, they just need a passport to enter.
19:42:16 <alise> pikhq: can they get a jorb though?
19:42:25 <alise> pikhq: well the difficult part is getting a passport.
19:42:29 <Sgeo> Why doesn't Sumatra embed in the browser?
19:42:34 <augur> alise: the roving ones are pretty much that
19:42:43 <augur> to varying degrees
19:42:53 <oerjan> <pikhq> ... And the King of Norway is not a citizen. <-- wait citation? he might be exempted from _voting_ by the constitution or just by custom, but i surely thought he'd be a citizen
19:42:57 <alise> Sgeo: because the netscape plugin api is a bit of a bitch and it's okay to have applications that aren't part of a browser
19:43:07 <augur> sometimes they get proper jobs and such, but its extraordinarily difficult for them to do so.
19:43:19 <alise> oerjan: the idea in monarchies is that the monarch "declares" all citizenships and whatnot
19:43:21 <pikhq> Oh, there's some paperwork involved, but it's technically not a visa, but rather a *registration*.
19:43:23 <Sgeo> Any recommendations on PDF readers that do embed in the browser?
19:43:23 <alise> so they're under their name
19:43:35 <alise> so, naturally, the monarch doesn't need to declare emself anything
19:43:44 <alise> as the whole ability to declare things rests on eir power anyway
19:43:52 <oerjan> alise: the thing is that most of those roma/gypsies in norway actually _are_ romanian citizens - they started coming when norway repealed the law against begging + romania joined eu
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19:45:13 <alise> oerjan: a law against begging sounds like a good idea; afaik the vast majority of beggers are actually very well-off...
19:45:22 <oerjan> alise: blackjack and gambling is pretty much outlawed in norway apart from the state and charity run lottery things
19:45:36 <oerjan> hookers are not outlawed, but _using_ them is
19:45:46 <oerjan> (we borrowed that last one from sweden)
19:45:52 <alise> "Have sex with me! It's only illegal for you!"
19:46:23 <pikhq> oerjan: The US, then, is somewhat more progressive. Prostitution is not against federal law, though most states make it illegal. :P
19:46:54 <pikhq> (for instance, it is perfectly legal in Nevada. ... Outside of Las Vegas.)
19:47:05 <alise> Vivaaaaa just outside Las Vegas!
19:47:06 <alise> Vivaaaaa just outside Las Vegas!
19:47:09 <alise> Vivaaa, vivaaa [etc.]
19:47:19 <oerjan> alise: as for the romas being parasite, i have a slight hunch that because of their reputation, actually honest roma would be loathe to reveal that they are so...
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19:47:35 <pikhq> oerjan: Hooray, fucked up culture.
19:47:50 <pikhq> (seriously, a culture based around being assholes to others? WTF?)
19:48:01 <alise> oerjan: well this is all from people who have had experience with them (in a reddit thread; anyone will defend anything in a reddit thread, so the fact that they weren't...)
19:48:16 <alise> oerjan: so presumably not self-identified, i don't think thiefs stop around to proclaim their heritage
19:48:33 <alise> [[Roma live often in depressed squatter communities with very high unemployment, while only some are fully integrated in the society. However, in some cases—notably the Kalderash group in Romania, who work as traditional coppersmiths—they have prospered.]]
19:48:45 <alise> *thieves, not thiefs
19:48:57 <alise> I imagine the decent ones mostly /actually live in Romania/.
19:48:57 <pikhq> alise: And BTW. In the US, beggers are either very well-off or very, very poor. Because there is basically no safety net in place.
19:49:22 <alise> pikhq: What I have read suggests that most begging is done by well-off people who make a fortune off it.
19:49:38 <alise> (and most of the /rest/ is probably spent on alcohol)
19:50:00 <pikhq> Because our solution to homelessness is to pretend it's not a problem.
19:50:05 <alise> pikhq: I read an article from a Toronto newspaper with mixed results; some people actually used it for reasonable things like food and clothes, (it was a prepaid credit card) others spent it on booze and shit like that.
19:50:08 <pikhq> Or say "well, they should work harder".
19:50:39 <oerjan> alise: from next month the city of trondheim will require registration of beggars - they previously did than in bergen and the number of beggars greatly diminished.
19:51:02 <pikhq> oerjan: Is begging actually a problem there?
19:51:08 <oerjan> pikhq: i thought i vaguely read that there was only _one_ US state where prostitution was legal, presumably nevada
19:51:08 <alise> gahaha registered beggers
19:51:18 <alise> "You're a beggar, huh? Let's see your card."
19:51:23 <alise> "Uh... I must have left it in my other pants..."
19:51:30 <alise> "Your other pants? Where do you keep them?"
19:51:38 <alise> "In my, uh, house..."
19:51:53 <alise> "Oh, well /do/ escort us there, then."
19:52:04 <alise> "The Mercedes doesn't come for another three hours..."
19:52:10 <pikhq> I mean, is it nearly impossible to walk around without tripping over one?
19:52:12 <alise> "I guess we'll just have to take the bus, then."
19:54:06 <pikhq> oerjan: Used to be legal in Rhode Island, too.
19:54:26 <oerjan> pikhq: the number of roma in the big cities is starting to become a little annoying. the only _norwegians_ who beg are basically alcoholics and drug addicts.
19:55:02 <oerjan> also there are reports that they have started territory fights...
20:04:36 <Flonk> Hey guys, I'm terrible with trigonometry, would you mind helping me for a minute?
20:05:31 <Flonk> I want to place a smaller triangle into a bigger one.
20:06:09 <Flonk> α = user input; β = 120° - α; γ = 60
20:06:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, are you having alpha and beta being the angles and a and b the sides?
20:07:21 <Flonk> http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/2668/blafz.jpg
20:12:47 <Flonk> yeah, and both triangles are equilateral
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20:15:35 <oerjan> Flonk: 1 = a+b = a(1+sin beta/sin alpha), perhaps?
20:17:39 <Flonk> I want to know how c2 correlates with alpha
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20:18:41 <oerjan> use c2/sin 60 = a/sin alpha = b/sin beta
20:18:48 <Flonk> Phantom_Hoover: yes
20:19:18 <oerjan> 1 = a+b = c2(sin alpha+sin beta)/sin 60, i think
20:20:03 <oerjan> and you already know how to correlate alpha and beta
20:22:49 <oerjan> you just need to use the sine law for all it's worth there, and forget the cosine one
20:24:00 <Flonk> oerjan: so c2 = 2*(sin alpha + sin beta)
20:24:47 <cpressey> The Pope's hat, Norway, beggars, trigonometry. A most logical progression.
20:25:09 <Slereah> Let's talk about 19th century looms
20:25:25 <oerjan> Slereah: that's just knitpicking
20:25:48 <Slereah> Are you aware that the Jacquard mechanical looms were the foundation for punchcards and mechanical computing?
20:25:52 <Flonk> oerjan: oh, sin(60) is not 0.5. nevermind.
20:26:07 <Slereah> That is all I know on looms.
20:26:09 <oerjan> Flonk: um that wasn't the main problem i saw there
20:27:10 <oerjan> unless it was i who made an error
20:28:25 <cpressey> Slereah: Ralph Griswold (the inventor of Icon) maintains a web page on theories that pertain to weaving.
20:29:24 <oklofok> Slereah: i just knew some mechanical looms were a foundation. i didn't know *jacquard* looms were *the* foundation
20:29:37 <Flonk> oerjan: figured it out. Thanks a lot!
20:29:47 <Slereah> Well, Jacquard is the one I remember.
20:29:54 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, pick a thing in the real world. You can build an area of mathematics off it.
20:30:01 <ais523> I thought they were the inspiration, rather than being used directly
20:30:09 <oklofok> Slereah: i just wanted to say not everyone else knew that
20:30:18 <oklofok> because i'm a people person
20:30:29 <ais523> as in, they used punched cards to store data
20:30:39 <ais523> but used them a different way to computer punched cards
20:31:01 <Slereah> The holes changed the movements of the... looming things.
20:31:07 <Slereah> To produce different looming movements
20:31:10 <oklofok> Phantom_Hoover: if sex had a math, someone would've found it.
20:31:43 <Slereah> There was an xkcd strip on it
20:33:33 <oklofok> i'm sure it was just an integral over a heart
20:36:38 <alise> it was pretty much that
20:38:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, but I have seen stuff on relationships and the applicability of maths thereto.
20:40:05 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
20:40:17 * oerjan misread that last word
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20:48:12 <alise> 08:04:50 <fizzie> "In Star Trek, tractor beams are imagined to work by placing a target in the focus of a subspace/graviton interference pattern created by two beams from an emitter. When the beams are manipulated correctly the target is drawn along with the interference pattern. The target may be moved toward or away from the emitter by changing the polarity of the beams."
20:48:19 <alise> A tractor beam is an attenuated linear graviton beam used by starships and space stations to control the movement of external objects. The beam places spatial stresses on the object in specific areas allowing the ship using the tractor beam to hold the object in a fixed location or alter its position or trajectory. While tractor beams are normally used to pull objects towards the beam source, or to tow objects, they can also be set to repel objects. (TOS: "
20:48:19 <alise> Who Mourns for Adonais?") (TNG: "The Naked Now")
20:48:19 <alise> Tractor beams are generally only used at sub-warp velocities. To safely tow a vessel at warp speed, the target vessel's engines must be deactivated to avoid shearing forces against towing vessel. Using a tractor beam can be done at warp speed only if both vessels' speeds are exactly matched. (TNG: "Final Mission", "The Emissary")
20:48:23 <alise> http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Tractor_beam
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20:52:34 <oklofok> "<Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, but I have seen stuff on relationships and the applicability of maths thereto." <<< see it unto me too, if possible
20:53:19 <oklofok> but did you KIND OF own it
20:53:56 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
20:54:12 <Phantom_Hoover> The analysis was all over how many dates to have in a fixed number before settling
20:55:54 * oerjan recalls something like date the first n/e and then settle with the first after that who is better than all of them
20:56:34 <oklofok> theory is something that has nothing to do with the original question
20:57:09 <oerjan> well i cannot guarantee i remember the /e right, although i _think_ so
21:00:19 * Phantom_Hoover wonders what the fastest RC plane he could acquire in a week would be
21:01:39 <Sgeo> You're going to see the pope in a week? o.O
21:04:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined.
21:06:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:17:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: Cool, I'll assassinate hi
21:19:37 <oerjan> hadde jeg hatt den hatten jeg har hatt, så hadde jeg hatt hatt
21:19:46 <Phantom_Hoover_> Well, stealing the Pope is rather different to stealing his hat.
21:21:04 <fizzie> "pope >>hat": pope is much larger than hat?
21:24:12 * cpressey designs an esolang that steals hats
21:26:18 <Gregor> Spelled "Worcestershire"
21:26:19 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:27:45 <alise> Gregor: *Pronounced
21:33:56 -!- Flonk has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]).
21:41:58 <oklofok> had i had the hat i've had, i'd've had a hat
21:44:34 <oklofok> notice every second is ha[dt]
21:45:17 <oklofok> and that the sequence of non ha[dt]'s is concave down like a frown in length
21:46:04 <oklofok> is that actually how you define convexity for funcs or do you require monot.
21:46:20 * oklofok shows intense knowledgeness
21:47:02 <oklofok> and actually it's concavity, not convexity, i guess i really should just use frown/cup... :D
21:47:24 <fizzie> Turn that frown, upside down.
21:48:05 <oklofok> ...that would sort of defeat the purpose
21:48:36 <oklofok> maybe i'll just say the function is frown
21:48:54 <oerjan> convexity: f(p*x+q*y) <= p*f(x)+q*f(y) for p+q=1, p,q >= 0
21:48:57 <oklofok> although you can't really not remember concave, if you draw a cave under the hill
21:49:36 <oklofok> you meant as an answer to whether monotonic
21:50:53 <oerjan> it's the derivative which is monotone
21:51:05 <oklofok> that defines it for arbitrary vector space
21:52:20 <oerjan> you could also define it as the set {(x,y) | y >= f(x)} being a convex set, i think
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21:52:59 <oerjan> to connect those two meanings of "convex"
21:53:12 <oklofok> yeah but that doesn't help at all with concave vs convex
21:53:36 <oklofok> which is the problem; although again i guess i did ask if you require monotonicity...
21:53:54 <oerjan> no but that's just switching <= and >= in the first definition
21:54:17 <oerjan> or switching in the second but then it's still a _convex_ set
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21:54:23 <oklofok> yes, and that's why you don't remember it, it's the classic problem of memorizing a dual concept
21:55:19 <oerjan> well i guess a set is concave if it's complement is convex
21:55:44 <oklofok> so they aren't completely dual because concavity is not really "the same thing" when talking about sets instead of functions
21:56:13 <oklofok> yeah but that isn't really the isomorphism kind of duality
21:56:57 <oklofok> can you do some transformation on a vector space to make concaves convex and vice versa
21:57:14 <oklofok> yeah i don't think you can
21:57:28 <oerjan> the thing is i don't recall actually using the word "concave" much at all, at least for sets
21:57:46 <oklofok> yes, "<oklofok> so they aren't completely dual becau..." was my realizing that
21:58:06 <oklofok> and saying something different, possibly
21:58:13 <oerjan> it's convex which is the important concept in functional analysis
21:58:48 <oklofok> but it'd seem like concave functions are the more natural thing, to me
21:59:24 <oklofok> because you can have a nonnegative-codomained concave function that has finite measure support, mainly
22:00:30 <oklofok> then again i don't know much about this stuff, as you might be able to deduce
22:00:51 <oklofok> i've had a bit of functional analysis but i'm dense like that
22:00:58 <oerjan> my memory is not immensely clear itself
22:01:29 <alise> ONE DAY SCIENTISTS FROZE EVERYTHING
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22:33:12 <Sgeo> alise, is it now moral to buy Apple products again?
22:33:22 <alise> I'm not certain they actually fixed anything.
22:33:27 <alise> The comments are uncertain, or at least were.
22:33:41 <alise> Anyway, there's always another fuckup around the corner or simply not realised yet.
22:41:35 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
22:42:19 <fizzie> Was this story the original inspiration for starting to talk about tractor beams, or is this just an awesome example of synchronicity? /. "Technology: Researchers Create Real Tractor Beams"
22:43:21 <ais523> alise: do you know what happened to digg? reddit are gloating about it to an extent that they aren't bothering to explain the context
22:44:08 <fizzie> "The way it works, is by shining a hollow laser beam around some tiny glass particles. The researchers heat the air around the particles, and therefore cause the dark center of the beam to remain cool. The result is that the particles within drift to the hotter rim (into the laser beam itself), the force of the fast-moving particles within the beam will cause the other drifting particles to move back into the middle." -- that's a pretty lame tractor beam.
22:44:44 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover__: it's allegedly worse than that
22:45:51 <ais523> the implication appears to be a botched migration to new technology, plus new features that are unpopular for some reason
22:45:56 <ais523> but I don't know the details
22:46:15 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:48:22 <fizzie> ais523: Just in case you didn't notice: I improved the Befunge C-style constants prog to beat Java by two bytes, thereby proving that Befunge is objectively a ~1.7 % better languahe than Java.
22:49:06 <Sgeo> Factor was originally implemented in Java
22:49:34 <ais523> and also beating common lisp, pascal, and C~
22:49:43 <ais523> the issue with java for golfing is the amount of boilerplate
22:49:51 <ais523> nobody's tried it in scheme
22:50:05 <ais523> fizzie: what are the dimensions of that program? 23x5?
22:51:21 <ais523> umm, wait no, must be 37x3
22:51:24 <ais523> assuming newlines are optimised
22:51:32 <fizzie> Three lines, of lengths 47, 39 and 29.
22:51:43 <ais523> and I'm wrong again, because ofc the lines don't all have to have the same length
22:51:49 <ais523> I look forward to seeing it
22:51:52 <fizzie> (With two newlines in-between.)
22:51:57 <ais523> especially given that you have to do the base-conversions by hand
22:53:06 <fizzie> There's still quite many days, I might get around to tweaking some characters off. (An automatic Befunge layout optimizer would be a nice optimization problem.)
22:54:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover__ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
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22:55:08 <fizzie> Looked at some old Java prog's post-mortem, it was written something like "enum B{B;{ /* code here */ }} because that way you don't need a method, just a initializer code block that's ran when the B.B instance is constructed.
22:56:46 <fizzie> I'd guess it runs that, then complains about missing main, but maybe the golf place ignores stderr?
23:01:08 <fizzie> Twas this one: http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?base+convert/hallvabo_1282897073&java
23:04:21 <fizzie> And "run first, then complain" is exactly what it does: http://p.zem.fi/xxx7
23:05:27 <ais523> fizzie: it displays stderr, but ignores it
23:06:30 <ais523> can you do I/O in an enum initialiser?
23:06:45 <ais523> the fact that's even possible makes the part of me that's aware of Haskell explode
23:06:47 -!- oerjan has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
23:07:50 <fizzie> I'm not sure if the spec exactly guarantees that System.in/System.out would be sane in a static member initializer, but it does seem to work.
23:13:16 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:13:18 <fizzie> It also has an "interesting" termination condition in the IO loop: "for(Scanner S=...;S==S;) ..." -- I don't quite know why *that* works, it never assigns anything to S and there's no == overloading...
23:14:01 <fizzie> Oh, it doesn't "work"; it does die in Scanner.nextInt.
23:14:39 <fizzie> But it doesn't matter since it's done at that point. So I guess it's just a fancier way to write "true".
23:15:01 <alise> <ais523> alise: do you know what happened to digg? reddit are gloating about it to an extent that they aren't bothering to explain the context
23:15:14 <oklofok> can't you leave it empty in java?
23:15:20 <oklofok> i guess that's a stupid question
23:15:20 <alise> they launched 4.0, which, due to a Retarded Design Error, ended up being an RSS feed of about 3 sites
23:15:41 <alise> almost the whole front page was filled with /links to reddit submissions' links/ (not the link itself; the link to the reddit submission)
23:15:47 <alise> not by accident, by submission
23:15:52 <alise> because even Digg users gave up
23:15:58 <ais523> someone figured out how to game the system, and it was reddit?
23:16:05 <alise> it wasn't even gaming
23:16:07 <ais523> I guess they're lucky it wasn't /b/
23:16:09 <alise> it was everyone having jumped ship
23:16:15 <alise> and only coming back to laugh at it
23:16:34 <alise> ais523: interestingly, reddit's traffic has surpassed digg even slightly before that, iirc
23:16:47 <ais523> well, that's arguably still gaming the system, just a very easy gaming of the system
23:16:47 <alise> so it's the underdog no longer :)
23:16:58 <ais523> akin to winning a nomic via persuading people to vote for your win
23:17:16 <alise> but yeah, the digg frontpage is basically worthless now
23:17:37 <fizzie> oklofok: Oh! You can, but then it refuses to compile because "initializer must be able to complete normally", and it realizes for empty (or for constant "true") that it would never halt except when an exception occurs.
23:17:57 <alise> ais523: of course, with reddit's steady decline in quality, Slashdot is probably the best option at this point
23:18:19 <ais523> I generally only read the comments, on both reddit and Slashdot
23:18:39 <fizzie> So the loop actually needs a real conditional, something that "looks like" it could be false too.
23:20:03 <ais523> you're right, unreachable code is a fatal compile error in Java
23:21:06 -!- cpressey has quit (*.net *.split).
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23:21:47 <fizzie> I've sometimes wanted to add an early "return" for quick-and-dirt debugging, and then it refused to compile until I made it something silly, like a if (1==1) return.
23:22:15 <fizzie> Dirt debugging; for us earthy fellows.
23:22:16 <alise> ais523: only reading the comments is quite a common sign of addiction :)
23:22:31 <alise> I love printf debugging.
23:22:33 <alise> it is my favourite
23:22:41 <ais523> presumably it's because the sort of people who are meant to program Java are the sort of people who would ignore an unreachable code warning
23:23:04 <ais523> alise: heh; I mostly do it when I need to waste time for some reason or another (often just to calm down after something's upset me)
23:23:06 <fizzie> This is Java, it's System.out.println debugging.
23:24:56 <fizzie> Did I ever tell you about the "MiniJava" language that our compiler course used? It had a separate statement with the syntax "System.out.println" "(" expr ")". To be "Java-compatible", you see.
23:25:30 <ais523> (especially as it's missing the semicolon)
23:25:50 <fizzie> Did I ever tell you about the "MiniJava" language that our compiler course used? It had a separate statement with the syntax "System.out.println" "(" expr ")". To be "Java-compatible", you see.
23:25:55 <fizzie> Oh, that"s probably just my fault. But still.
23:26:04 <alise> ais523: I load reddit every time I get into an idle loop.
23:26:08 <fizzie> (I keep hitting up-arrow insteas of .)
23:26:11 <alise> It is my HLT instruction.
23:26:17 <Vorpal> <ais523> you're right, unreachable code is a fatal compile error in Java <--- whaaaat?
23:26:26 <ais523> who was it here who said they started browsing Slashdot because they were bored of Slashdot
23:26:34 <ais523> (not /always/, ofc, because of the halting problem)
23:26:39 <ais523> (but when it can detect it)
23:27:05 <Vorpal> ais523, so if they improved the detection algorithm it would possibly break old code?
23:27:16 <fizzie> It doesn't try especially hard to detect it, though. (E.g. constant propagation is not done.)
23:27:21 <ais523> although arguably the old code was broken anyway
23:27:36 <Vorpal> warning yes... but fatal error? wtf
23:27:56 <fizzie> It might even be that they've explicitly spec'd the things that it is allowed to be able to detect.
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23:28:16 <ais523> fizzie: that wouldn't actually surprise me
23:29:15 <fizzie> {normal} println = 'System.out.println';
23:29:15 <fizzie> {normal} write = 'System.out.write';
23:29:15 <fizzie> {normal} read = 'System.in.read';
23:29:24 <fizzie> Oh, it had three tokens like that.
23:29:50 <pikhq> The whole thing with "random slowdowns" on my phone was apparently because Palm stuck an overzealous logging daemon on there.
23:29:52 <fizzie> | {print} println lparen expression rparen semi
23:29:52 <fizzie> {-> New statement.print(println, expression.expression)}
23:30:11 <fizzie> And then production rules like that for statement.
23:30:31 <Vorpal> pikhq, suggestion: log that logging is slow ;)
23:31:08 <pikhq> All so that there can be debugging info available.
23:34:57 <fizzie> "Every Java compiler must carry out the conservative flow analysis specified here to make sure all statements are reachable. -- The analysis takes into account the structure of statements. Except for the special treatment of while, do, and for statements whose condition expression has the constant value true, the values of expressions are not taken into account in the flow analysis."
23:35:33 <fizzie> IOW, they have indeed specified what does compile-error unreachable mean.
23:36:05 <ais523> so while(false) {x;} is allowed because the x is reachable because the false is not a constant true?
23:36:16 <ais523> um, replace the x there with something that parses
23:37:31 <alise> "The people behind VLC, quite probably the most useful media player available right now."
23:37:34 <alise> "The people behind VLC, quite probably the most useful media player available right now,"
23:37:36 <olsner_> "x;" is usually a valid statement in the braces-languages, I think ... java would probably bark at an expression-statement that doesn't have side effects though
23:37:40 <alise> --> "I have never heard of mplayer."
23:38:00 <ais523> olsner_: yep, you need parens or an = for a side-effect
23:38:12 <fizzie> ais523: No, that's another special case they didn't mention in the summary paragraph.
23:38:22 <ais523> alise: the people on #tasvideos encode with some really weird settings, etc
23:38:34 <fizzie> ais523: "The contained statement is reachable iff the while statement is reachable and the condition expression is not a constant expression whose value is false."
23:38:36 <ais523> they say that VLC is the best at getting the videos right, even though it crashes a lot
23:38:38 <alise> ais523: x.264 guys, I'll bet?
23:39:14 <ais523> alise: well, when I try to play back their .avi encodings of a 30Hz game, the video plays back double speed, and the sound at the correct speed
23:39:18 <ais523> which obviously makes them rather out-of-synch
23:39:40 <alise> they should be ashamed of theirselves :)
23:39:51 <ais523> you can put all sorts of interesting things inside it
23:40:01 <ais523> .mp4 and .mkv are more common as containers, though
23:41:29 <alise> yes, but nobody who tweaks settings like a freak would be caught dead using something as horrible-to-use as .avi
23:41:35 <alise> especially as it's quite limited, although I forget how
23:41:46 <alise> the tweakers almost always use .mkv in my experience
23:41:51 <alise> even when storing H.264
23:41:56 <alise> although some Blu-Ray rips are .mp4
23:42:39 <ais523> tasvideos aren't tweaking for crazy performance or anything like that, though
23:42:47 <ais523> mostly they're just trying to get the things to work and be a reasonable size
23:42:55 <fizzie> ais523: But due to another special case, "if (false) { x(); }" is in fact legal, as is "if (true) x(); else y();" -- the spec admits the handling is not consistent with other control structures, but is done like that to "allow the if statement to be used conveniently for "conditional compilation" purposes".
23:42:58 <olsner_> eugh, RIFF stores the length of the file in the file (as if the file size wasn't obvious from the, you know, actual size of the file), and stores it as a 32-bit integer
23:43:06 <olsner_> great future-proofing there
23:43:16 <pikhq> avi is perhaps the worst container.
23:43:23 <ais523> olsner_: tasvideos actually hit that limit
23:43:33 <olsner_> pikhq: XML would be worse, I think
23:43:40 <ais523> which is pretty impressive
23:44:04 <pikhq> alise: BTW, to be fair to VLC, it *is* probably the most useful GUI media player out there.
23:44:25 <alise> pikhq: gmplayer? :P
23:44:27 <pikhq> Notable features include: supporting nearly everything (like mplayer) and not sucking (like mplayer).
23:44:38 <alise> ais523: a /speed run/ hit a /time limit/ on a /video format/?
23:44:41 <alise> what kind of game is that?!
23:44:46 <pikhq> Gmplayer sucked last time I tried it.
23:44:52 <pikhq> alise: Size limit, not time limit.
23:44:55 <ais523> a very long one, probably; or possibly one that compresses really badly
23:45:00 <olsner_> yeah, iirc gmplayer sucks pretty badly
23:45:09 <alise> is gmplayer == the mplayer gui?
23:45:10 <ais523> most video formats are really bad at encoding game videos
23:45:15 <alise> or == gnome-mplayer?
23:45:27 <olsner_> I found it worse than the command-line user interface at least
23:45:31 <pikhq> gmplayer is the mplayer GUI, which uses GTK.
23:50:35 * alise opens The Largest tar.bz2
23:51:23 <ais523> <IOCCC what's new, newest entry> 30 April 2010: Announcement coming soon. Check back here on 15 May 2010!
23:53:40 <ais523> really, I don't know what to make of that
23:54:17 <olsner_> now the entire contest is obfuscated!
23:57:49 <Sgeo> So, progress on HackFactor?
23:57:59 -!- olsner_ has changed nick to olsner.
23:58:07 <Sgeo> `factor "Hello world" print
23:58:30 <Sgeo> `factor "No output." print
23:58:49 <Sgeo> It works half the time!