< 1284336162 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1284336166 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: see, i've never done that, so i decided it was time to play catch up :) < 1284336177 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, alise's sexp-in-awk-parser is similar < 1284336183 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i think) < 1284336263 0 :yiyus!~124271242@67.202.106.57 JOIN :#esoteric < 1284336530 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1284337688 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1284337780 0 :relet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1284338638 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it... almost works < 1284338720 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's... almost good? < 1284338760 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost yay < 1284338875 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: how is it similar? < 1284338929 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you keep trampolining back the to // < 1284338934 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*back to the < 1284338941 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1284339679 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d'oh < 1284339865 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :works now < 1284339934 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, battle programmer shirase doesn't accept money, but will work for vintage scsi cards < 1284340637 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1284341004 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought that rung a bell; iirc fizzie linked to this a while back: battle programmer shirase < 1284341005 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1284341007 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WxJECOFg8w < 1284341009 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stupid clipboard < 1284341386 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#esoteric < 1284341386 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grr < 1284341391 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is this rendering so messed up < 1284341820 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1284341895 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/1154814 < 1284341920 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now you can criticize, mock, double compile, etc < 1284341988 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow it uses monaco < 1284341993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :disorienting < 1284342009 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: it's the most boring, conservative implementation of lisp i have ever seen. < 1284342028 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :congrats :P < 1284342107 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\o/ < 1284342108 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :   | < 1284342108 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :   >\ < 1284342112 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Hmm, you have a state machine parser. Nice. < 1284342123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: It's like a recursive descent parser minus the recursion. < 1284342127 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was the objective of the exercise < 1284342147 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : if (*(state->ptr) == (char)0) { < 1284342151 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if (!*(state->ptr)) < 1284342178 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boo < 1284342191 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1284342191 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :builds on amiga, too < 1284342198 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my line is clearly superior < 1284342204 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, clearly < 1284342207 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your is Javaesque in its senseless, readability-impairing verbosity < 1284342212 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*yours < 1284342230 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NUL is an implementation detail; you're really asking "is there no character?". < 1284342256 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... NUL is seriously exposed in C. < 1284342341 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1284342346 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but your conditional does not express your intent as clearly as mine < 1284342354 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like to only use ! on things that are actually boolean. < 1284342369 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think mine expresses my intent painfully explicitly < 1284342386 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IF THIS IS A NUL, THEN.. < 1284342405 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'\0' is also ok < 1284342574 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, yours is correct in a very literal, assembly sense < 1284342579 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but K&R would not approve. < 1284342692 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :agreed. they would not. < 1284342708 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway... i might write some kind of evaluator on this, now < 1284342726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i sort of wish C had classes now < 1284342729 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I'm writing a better parser < 1284342733 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I instinctively passed a parser argument, right < 1284342734 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and wrote < 1284342736 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p->next(); < 1284342741 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then i realised that, with standard C, < 1284342749 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I couldn't assign a meaningful function pointer there for e.g. an arbitrary string < 1284342752 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you can't do closures < 1284342758 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i totally wished C had superstructures when I wrote this, because of all the casting < 1284342782 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i don't want to just use a string pointer < 1284342783 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because... stdin < 1284342823 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright < 1284342992 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: God, if C just had closures. < 1284343130 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: eh i'm too lazy to < 1284343138 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why have you made it resumable, anyway? < 1284343154 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: because i never did one like that before < 1284343156 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so he can put it on his resume, silly < 1284343173 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yes, that's the sort of thing prospective employers want to hear < 1284343183 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"so, how many ways have you written parsers?" < 1284343217 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite frankly, i'm not sure why I do ANYTHING I do < 1284343254 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wh... < 1284343257 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it was fun! < 1284343301 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and doing it in C is mainly because of my Amiga proclivities < 1284343326 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, i figure, if it can build there, it can build anywhere. < 1284343358 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: first it's closures, next it's garbage collection, then the next thing you know, you aren't C anymore < 1284343400 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I humbly suggest we all just use OCaml. < 1284343408 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it's shit, but are you really going to use that as an objection to a C replacement? < 1284343554 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, 25-35 years ago, academia was devising new languages left and right, and so few of them have survived. < 1284343556 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: libgc already. < 1284343592 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :libgc is meh! < 1284343596 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so conservative. < 1284343600 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: i imagine many gems have been lost. < 1284343627 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: only to help find the leaks! < 1284343668 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yeah, but it's a significant improvement over malloc in many use cases. < 1284343683 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, when you can *convince* people of that, you can probably convince them to just drop the C. :P < 1284343686 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and [other language] is a significant improvement over C :) < 1284343689 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1284343705 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"We use C because we need it to be FAAASST" < 1284343708 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :remember when Vorpal was rabidly arguing for memory memory management which is EASY to do properly, over SLOW SLOW gc? < 1284343719 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(he's retarded in new, excitingly different ways now!) < 1284343722 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"... But you spend more time writing it in C than you do using it" < 1284343738 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: strangely, i don't. well, ... 1) units of measurement <-> type system. 2) automatic construction of GUIs from data types. 3) self-modifying grammars. I've seen old papers on all of these. And those languages were forgotten. but the ideas keep coming up < 1284343810 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now we have 1) Frink (but it sucks) 2) ...? probably some jQuery plugin somewhere. 3) Zz, Plof, etc. < 1284343833 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Frink does not suck :< < 1284343839 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's even making it more CASy < 1284343846 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not compared to Wolfram Alpha, I suppose < 1284343861 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2) is... what was it called < 1284343865 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haven't played with it in a while < 1284343875 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TV < 1284343890 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/TV < 1284343907 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Tangible_Value ;; more permalinky < 1284343909 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can I, in TeX, like \ignorespaces but instead keep track of if there is a space there or not? < 1284343969 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: That's certainly interesting... I wonder how much it can/must infer < 1284344011 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: then there's the ultra-fun, way-out-there http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Eros < 1284344012 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :based on TV < 1284344029 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For other variants of C includes C++ and Objective-C and D, because of the different opinion of different people. < 1284344037 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: this is Conal Elliott's stuff < 1284344041 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(couldn't you guess? :)) < 1284344050 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :totally a hero of mine < 1284344052 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately C++ is not completely compatible with C (for many reasons), even though it might seem at first. < 1284344054 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Ooh. < 1284344067 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, couldn't guess. [I refer you to the rock.] < 1284344078 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah haskellers are totally famous < 1284344092 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :his blog is fun http://conal.net/blog/ < 1284344095 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it proves I'm not jaundiced on everything, because I'm actually quite interested in this < 1284344102 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My English homework's easier than my comp. homework < 1284344105 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is alarming < 1284344105 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like http://arcanesentiment.blogspot.com/ as my language-blog < 1284344110 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like lambda the ultimate but more interesting < 1284344167 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what disturbs me is that I can't *tell* what I'll find actually-interesting and what will bore me. there is a pattern but I can't expres or predict it < 1284344169 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Topless data" ;; totally didn't need that mental image < 1284344173 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clothes are illogical! < 1284344185 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*express < 1284344189 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But they keep me warm :( < 1284344190 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: perhaps typo corrections interest you < 1284344213 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah: "I am an android; as such, I do not require fibrous garments to keep my internal systems at their optimum temperature." < 1284344257 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: not as such, no < 1284344270 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should switch my loyalty to Icon < 1284344285 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: What. Are. You. Talking. About. Questionmark. < 1284344297 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm reading the thing alise linked < 1284344305 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Icon is an... interesting one. < 1284344313 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I think Griswold realized it doesn't scale. < 1284344323 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(scale in some... conceptual sense) < 1284344360 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :icon's model is fun < 1284344368 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION read that as (scala in some... conceptual sense)
< 1284344379 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y < (x | 5) is cool too < 1284344383 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl 6 has that < 1284344397 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i forget what they're calling them; the perl 5 implementation is Quantum::Superpositions < 1284344406 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Icon is like a non-gross Perl in a lot of ways < 1284344407 0 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-156-182.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1284344410 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1284344423 0 :Patashu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1284344455 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can imagine doing that in Haskell and it being this clunky monster but you could do it right and look I have this nifty type for it! < 1284344483 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nifty 150 character type < 1284344512 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you couldn't really do that in haksell < 1284344513 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*haskell < 1284344545 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://arcanesentiment.blogspot.com/2010/08/from-python-to-c.html < 1284344563 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: not with a syntax anything like that, no < 1284344577 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're basically writing an interpreter for your miniiconexplang < 1284344615 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: what? < 1284344627 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1284344713 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Manual memory management is hard. If it accounts for half of your bugs, that's normal." < 1284344730 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd say that's an underestimate for C. < 1284344734 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*underestimation < 1284344739 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably about right for C++. < 1284344744 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(There you have new/delete.) < 1284344770 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh and clever pointers. < 1284344775 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I mean smart pointers. < 1284344778 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(No I don't.) < 1284344809 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pointers with Ph.D.s < 1284344814 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ "in the large" is particularly fun because everyone uses a different kind of smart pointer. < 1284344824 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Ph.Ds.? < 1284344836 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obnoxious pretentious pointers? < 1284344849 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"No, this is NOT your data. Pfft." < 1284344960 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is Delphi a good language? < 1284345003 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really < 1284345007 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Delphi is basically Pascal with goodies. < 1284345008 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pascal is nice in its insane "purity" < 1284345024 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Delphi developers thought "oh, that sounds like a nice thing to give OOP" < 1284345031 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like Pascal as a pedogogical language. < 1284345033 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then went totally insane, turning it into C++ without braces < 1284345042 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I bet the original Macintosh's Pascal code was nice. < 1284345053 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I get the impression it was, yes. < 1284345053 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++:C::Delphi:Pascal? < 1284345071 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: C++:SomethingEvenSimplerThanC::Delphi::Pascal < 1284345076 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They literally turned Pascal into C++. < 1284345127 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: What editor do you use? < 1284345140 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if Clojure might be a Lisp with (almost) everything he sees in Pascal
< 1284345146 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, in Factor < 1284345217 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: You will mock me if I tell you. < 1284345226 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I really won't. < 1284345236 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there anyone here who hasn't been mocked by alise? < 1284345236 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's not emacs and it's not vim and it has an actual gui. < 1284345237 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just seven years ago I was bashing out PHP in Notepad. < 1284345247 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Awful PHP at that. < 1284345251 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's not notepad, thank the gods < 1284345260 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Hell, I don't even like Emacs or vim. < 1284345268 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's SciTE and the main reason I use it is consistency between *nix and Windows. < 1284345271 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use the former simply because I gave up. < 1284345280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SciTE is alright < 1284345304 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to write an editor using Scintilla at one point (same author as SciTE; the editing component backend). < 1284345315 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a bit weird though, can't place my finger on it. Something odd about it. < 1284345327 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: now amend, there's a good editor. < 1284345328 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :surprised. i guess i'm too used to getting the seeing the hidden disappointment when I tell people I don't use emacs < 1284345336 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/getting the/ < 1284345350 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/getting the // < 1284345352 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Emacs can get stuff done, but the UI is so terrible that I wouldn't blame anyone who didn't use it. < 1284345362 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a big dog but it can do pretty much anything I want with a big gob of elisp, so. < 1284345369 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Emacs does not know "user-friendly". < 1284345371 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Editing Haskell in anything else is... painful. < 1284345376 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lisp too. < 1284345393 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :User-antagonistic. Works just fine if you're willing to fight back. < 1284345396 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah when I open Emacs I pretty much resign myself to leaving my platform behind and dabbling in its land < 1284345396 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Emacs has TECO as an ancestor. I don't know if there's anything I can add to that. < 1284345401 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: not really < 1284345405 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Emacs was first implemented on top of TECO < 1284345406 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it not? < 1284345408 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it was nothing like modern Emacs < 1284345410 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's what I meant. < 1284345412 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's implemented-on, more than extension-of < 1284345420 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it was pretty much thrown out and replaced < 1284345422 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still carries the miasma. < 1284345426 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need food < 1284345431 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION goes to cafeteria
< 1284345432 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I've used TECO. < 1284345435 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's acceptable. < 1284345442 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TECO lives on more in *ed* than in Emacs. < 1284345447 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TECO's better than ed. IMO. < 1284345453 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's much more flexible :-) < 1284345458 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes. < 1284345468 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pressing escape is inconvenient on most keyboards though < 1284345472 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you remapped capslock to it it'd be cool < 1284345494 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to use nedit, which was actually alright, except for the *tif dependency. < 1284345506 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :teco is quite simple really < 1284345515 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-5DIGoodbye$0TT$$ < 1284345517 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where $ = escape < 1284345522 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-5D <- delete 5 chars back, just like vi < 1284345528 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I...$ <- insert this < 1284345538 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0TT <- "print line 0 lines away from this one" < 1284345546 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$$ <- "do all this and print out the results" < 1284345563 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like TECO as a historical artifact. I've tried to get into Emacs several times, many many times, and never made it fully in. < 1284345580 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I were to use TECO at work... < 1284345582 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, TECO has a short brainfuck interpreter < 1284345583 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : @^UB#@S/{^EQQ,/#@^UC#@S/,^EQQ}/@-1S/{/#@^UR#.U1ZJQZ\^SC.,.+-^SXQ-^SDQ1J#@^U9/[]-+<>.,/<@:-FD/^N^EG9/;>J30000<0@I/ < 1284345583 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : />ZJZUL30000J0U10U20U30U60U7@^U4/[]/@^U5#<@:S/^EG4/U7Q7;-AU3(Q3-91)"=%1|Q1"=.U6ZJ@i/{/Q2\@i/,/Q6\@i/}/Q6J0;'-1%1' < 1284345583 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : >#<@:S/[/UT.U210^T13^TQT;QT"NM5Q2J'>0UP30000J.US.UI<(0A-43)"=QPJ0AUTDQT+1@I//QIJ@O/end/'(0A-45)"=QPJ0AUTDQT-1@I// < 1284345584 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : QIJ@O/end/'(0A-60)"=QP-1UP@O/end/'(0A-62)"=QP+1UP@O/end/'(0A-46)"=-.+QPA^T(-.+QPA-10)"=13^T'@O/end/'(0A-44)"=^TUT < 1284345587 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any opinions on Notepad++? < 1284345587 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 8^TQPJDQT@I//QIJ@O/end/'(0A-91)"=-.+QPA"=QI+1UZQLJMRMB\-1J.UI'@O/end/'(0A-93)"=-.+QPA"NQI+1UZQLJMRMC\-1J.UI'@O/en < 1284345590 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : d/'!end!QI+1UI(.-Z)"=.=@^a/END/^c^c'C> < 1284345596 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: it's very solidly meh < 1284345600 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was always a Notepad2 guy myself < 1284345606 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Emacs has a very, very steep curve from "know nothing" to "usable in spite of ignorance". < 1284345609 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: At a place I used to work everyone LOVED Notepad++. I guess it's OK. < 1284345610 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i was also an idiot, so there you go. < 1284345624 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Anyway, really we should all just use amend. < 1284345632 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: not acme? < 1284345651 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: acme? < 1284345653 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1284345654 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: no :P < 1284345659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not that hardcore :( < 1284345667 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot of the plan 9 gang use sam < 1284345676 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is basically a graphical window < 1284345678 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with an ed window < 1284345682 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a bunch of file windows below < 1284345683 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inside < 1284345702 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can select text and do basic insertions and scrolling with the bottom windows, but you mostly do everything inside the sam pane < 1284345703 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and doing e.g. < 1284345704 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/ab/ < 1284345706 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :will highlight ab < 1284345717 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so basically it's ed turned into a "graphical" editor < 1284345746 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh mt < 1284345748 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*my < 1284345769 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not bad if you know ed's command set really < 1284345772 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah, hardcore. < 1284345781 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm talking about people like ken thompson here that use it < 1284345787 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gods among men < 1284345802 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Hmm. That seems not too bad after the learning curve. < 1284345808 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sam is the preferred text editor of many eminent computer scientists; it replaced ed as Ken Thompson's favorite text editor, and he still uses it to this day. Sam is the text editor used by Bjarne Stroustrup [1] and Brian Kernighan [2]. Others, like Dennis Ritchie, have moved on to use acme instead. < 1284345812 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: sam or TECO? < 1284345819 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/Sam_text_editor.png < 1284345820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :screenshot of sam < 1284345823 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: sam. < 1284345839 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: ASK WHAT AMEND IS DAMMIT < 1284345886 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, an editor you have planned? < 1284345894 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MAYBE < 1284345906 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just Nothing < 1284345909 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually did some work on leaden (its predecessor) but that code is elsewhere or lost right now. < 1284345915 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever. < 1284345926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly the least conventional editor around, though... < 1284345934 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: OK. < 1284345936 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: How much would it irk you to use an editor where every single change to the file is saved automatically? < 1284345939 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: WHAT IS AMEND DAMMIT < 1284345959 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I... it would take getting used to. Would it also save undo info in the file? I could live with that. < 1284345960 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damnit, dammit < 1284345967 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Ctrl+S instead makes a version-control commit, after prompting for a one-line commit message. I call this feature "Overcome the Inertia Stopping Me Using Version Control".) < 1284345976 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: It wouldn't; that's what Ctrl+S is for. < 1284345981 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or perhaps I will store undo information in ~/.amend/. < 1284345982 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh amend is yours! < 1284345984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's certainly a good idea. < 1284346002 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Anyway, the idea is that whenever you'd save, you'd instead make a commit. < 1284346004 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooooooO < 1284346007 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION likes
< 1284346009 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*likey < 1284346011 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a good idea. < 1284346020 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: the VCS thing or storing undo information to a file? < 1284346024 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :VCS < 1284346041 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although what about quick one-second files? < 1284346049 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a default VCS? < 1284346055 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: When there is no repository, it will prompt to either create one or go into Boring Mode. < 1284346073 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My only worry is that I made a bunch of changes, I don't like them, then amend crashes. Urg, I'm stuck with them. Of course, if the file is in VCS I can just revert, so, yeah. < 1284346076 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boring Mode should also be used for configuration files, like in /etc (even if you keep them in a VCS, it's not a good idea to change them underneath programs). < 1284346089 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Yeah, that's the idea. < 1284346103 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boring Mode -- which won't actually be called that -- should be used whenever you're without a VCS. < 1284346110 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hopes that append will be available for Windows
< 1284346113 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In Boring Mode, Ctrl+S when there are no unsaved changes will commit. So you can still do that.) < 1284346117 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: *amend, and maybe. < 1284346147 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I won't make any great effort to support Windows; I'll make small fixes if they make it work, though. < 1284346150 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like my spelling of alise's editor has just been alise's editored < 1284346172 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite < 1284346181 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other possible name was alter < 1284346183 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I liked amend more < 1284346208 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vcs-editor! < 1284346211 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1284346219 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has more features < 1284346230 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: other features: very little ui, but not ui obscured behind non-obvious keyboard commands < 1284346242 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just that there's not much to it that isn't integrated into a normal editing flow < 1284346259 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I managed to now make Enhanced CWEB to be able to use special symbols for some words. Such as: blackboard bold "Z" for int or for signed int, blackboard bold "N" for unsigned, and so on. < 1284346262 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...self-discoverable, i.e. all keyboard shortcuts are either standard, included in a VERY tiny initial reference, or shown in the interface < 1284346285 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: a proper sidebar tree view of a directory for navigating a project... < 1284346303 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably a list of files on the side since I'm stuffing other stuff onto the sidebar anyway; it can hold more entries than horizontal tabs < 1284346310 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no menus :P < 1284346325 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: my inspiration for some of this is http://www.logarithmic.net/pfh/yaedit < 1284346327 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wants this to become a mainstream editor
< 1284346332 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1284346345 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which has the auto-save thing but no VCS support, a very obvious UI, and a sidebar as the only other UI < 1284346355 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1284346401 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably the first version of amend will be called "leaden" because i'm worried about giving anything rubbish the name amend, it's too good to tarnish :) < 1284346459 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the idea of all shortcuts being visible. Or, ... well, a qualified version of that. < 1284346464 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"An option to set the bloody tab size and screw up your indenting. Tabs are 8 spaces, get over it. < 1284346464 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1284346468 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uhh... < 1284346474 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So much for editing Python code? < 1284346489 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can insert four spaces. < 1284346494 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a very common opinion, anyway, that \t = 8 spaces < 1284346497 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indentation < 1284346497 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!= tab < 1284346504 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he means that \t shows as 8 spaces < 1284346512 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i think all indentation is by tabs, that's not what he's saying there < 1284346517 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't agree with it but whatever < 1284346549 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*my* editor would choke on tabs with the error message: "bad magic: plz man 1 expand" < 1284346573 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some people may want to edit text, you know < 1284346579 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: and? < 1284346585 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: nothing wrong with tabs, they're just horribly misused < 1284346600 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tabs for indentation, spaces for alignment, although limited in editor support, is beautiful, since it looks perfect no matter what tabstop you se < 1284346602 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*use < 1284346607 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and retains the indentation information in a semantic form < 1284346616 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even better are elastic tabstops, which don't even require a monospaced font for alignment :) < 1284346617 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :goodnight < 1284346622 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone check out what the hell this is: < 1284346623 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* afaulds has quit (Quit: http://ajf.me/stuff/beep.exe - World's most advance beep app) < 1284346624 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1284346625 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :goodnght < 1284346626 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1284346647 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION carefully downloads
< 1284346740 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION asks for Symantec to scan
< 1284346751 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION watches Symantec take an unholy eternity to load
< 1284346849 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Waiting for Symantec to start scanning... < 1284346877 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :VirusTotal, which includes Symantec, found nothing < 1284346894 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :local Symantec is still being a bitch < 1284346916 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh look, it completed < 1284346986 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION can't wait can't wait
< 1284347019 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :local found the same thing as VirusTotal: Nothing interesting. I should have said that after it completed < 1284347024 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead of leaving it implied. < 1284347037 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did it at least go "beep"? < 1284347074 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't actually run the thing < 1284347091 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dfound its source < 1284347095 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(supposed source) < 1284347101 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://ajf.me/stuff/beep.c < 1284347133 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : case WM_COMMAND: < 1284347133 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Beep(750, 300); < 1284347218 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should make a Chrome profile that has Chrome's noscript enabled < 1284347224 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And doesn't have Flash or other plugins < 1284347229 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://ajf.me/reactos/stuff/arwinss-logo.png <-- much more entertaining than beep.c < 1284347229 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And starts in Incognito < 1284347233 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hazmat Chrome < 1284347249 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not as safe as a browser in a VM, but very close < 1284347336 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds decet < 1284347339 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*decent < 1284347394 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah I forgot Gnome terminal can open multiple tabs! < 1284347428 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, I tend to like having multiple desktop "screens" and sliding between them with Ctrl+Alt+arrowkeys better < 1284347440 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer screen. < 1284347462 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm, cheese. < 1284347464 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer screen for talking with a remote system that's going to drop me. < 1284347661 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someday, I will switch to ReactOS < 1284347784 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Once it becomes borderline-usable? < 1284347793 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1284347801 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe when it becomes near-perfect < 1284347827 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Although I'm scared that that might take decades) < 1284347862 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How long has WINE been around for? < 1284347923 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Apparently it started in 1993. < 1284347926 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(WP) < 1284347957 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION depresses
< 1284347986 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION does not feel like waiting 20 years for usable ReactoS
< 1284347989 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ReactOS < 1284348136 0 :yiyus_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1284348551 0 :yiyus_!~124271242@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1284348592 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I added an evaluator to my parser. It knows 'car', 'cdr', and 'quote'. Exciting language! < 1284348619 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It will probably become a C impl of Pixley. Eventually. < 1284348712 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and I should probably make the *evaluator* non-recursive and resumable, too, just for consistency with the existing pointlessness. < 1284348902 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pointfreeness? < 1284349338 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with no arguments < 1284349664 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arg[0] < 1284349773 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I took the concept of a language with expression nesting and 2d flow and made it less awful than what I wrote out Boat as. < 1284349776 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/YwLs2faU < 1284350341 0 :Mathnerd314!~mathnerd3@dsl.6.28.53.206.cos.dyn.pcisys.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1284350709 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are any other needed symbols for data types in Enhanced CWEB? < 1284350716 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Other than the ones I have already listed) < 1284350805 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I probably need "float" "double" "long double" I can use blackboard bold R for those. < 1284350812 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(With the superscript - and +) < 1284351088 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Where can I download Enhanced CWEB? < 1284351265 0 :sftp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1284351484 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wareya: It looks a lot like C put into a 2D grid. But I don't see any obvious way to do conditional control flow -- neither in it nor in Boat. < 1284351505 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't written conditionals into that one < 1284351513 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, in Boat it looks like ?(e){c} < 1284351518 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1284351563 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I can't telnet into zzo38computer.cjb.net either, although I wasn't really expecting to be able to :) < 1284351978 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Variables of negative size... < 1284352121 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Moving XOR to : and :: < 1284352219 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like I've used everything but , and . < 1284352224 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variables of negative size could be stored backwards in memory < 1284352243 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Sorry. I do not currently have a telnet service running. (I used to, once. And I might possibly add others later) < 1284352254 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aedi diputs a tahw < 1284352261 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be pretty nice, but how would their arraying work? < 1284352281 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Download Enhanced CWEB from: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/cweb/ < 1284352286 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/cweb/cweb.zip < 1284352302 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since the array indices of a null variable would all point to the same place (though it would end up being illegal to use them) it would make sense fot the array to be backwards too. < 1284352309 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Currently I am working on version 0.3 but there is version 0.2 can be downloaded from that URL) < 1284352326 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it could turn out more abusable if the array indices always went to a higher address. < 1284352342 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if the variable were of negative size. < 1284352915 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alright: http://pastebin.com/4TYRsGeJ < 1284353209 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1284353305 0 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1284354212 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm wondering about embedding conditions inside of expressions < 1284354216 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wareya: I... didn't think you would take that seriously :) < 1284354230 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The negative variable thing? < 1284354233 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1284354235 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually had that in my mind for a while. < 1284354237 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1284354241 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1284354254 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:03 < wareya> I'm wondering about embedding conditions inside of expressions < 1284354257 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :conditionals* < 1284354315 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wareya: i have no opinion on that except "why not, C does it." < 1284354331 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C lets you embed if statements inside of expressions? < 1284354374 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C lets you have ? : operator inside of expressions < 1284354375 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: thanks, I have downloaded it. you might have more users if you made it possible to find that page from zzo38computer's main page. (not that you necessarily want more users) < 1284354379 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, right < 1284354387 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I was thinking of ?: < 1284354398 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Yes I can might add that to the main menu < 1284354432 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might also add it to the gopher menu. The gopher menu is more organized, although not as many things available. I should add it to both menus, hopefully. < 1284354457 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking about entire conditionals, statements included < 1284354480 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be another layer of depth in the expression nesting. < 1284354487 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In C you can have function calls inside of an expression, so the function call can cause anything < 1284354499 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In GNU C, I think you can even write it directly inline inside the expression < 1284354533 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to wake up and go to, uh, school in six hours. < 1284354538 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should stop drinking caffiene < 1284354558 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-4.5.0/gcc/Statement-Exprs.html#Statement-Exprs < 1284354615 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks complicated. < 1284354617 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1284354624 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell allows statements in expressions! < 1284354668 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there any other non-standard character escapes in some C compilers, other than \e for escape in GNU C? < 1284354751 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that GNU C allows x?:y as a shortcut for x?x:y < 1284354772 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's not a character escape so < 1284354839 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C does allow multiple chars in a ''. < 1284354848 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(IIRC, up to system word size) < 1284354890 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Do you have any questions/suggestions about Enhanced CWEB? < 1284354959 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: It will take a long time for me to formulate any suggestions, but I do have one question. I think you posted a really simple example of a C program written in CWEB, to a pastebin, in the last few days (or week), but I don't remember the URL. Do you still have that? < 1284354980 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish I remembered what the program did. It was simple, that's all I remember. < 1284355022 0 :augur!~augur@208-58-6-161.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1284355375 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: No, I do not have the URL, sorry.... < 1284355399 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also do not remember what program... < 1284355486 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well. maybe i bookmarked it at work. < 1284355492 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good night -> < 1284355986 0 :Fiber!~Fiber@c-98-243-28-165.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1284356043 0 :Fiber!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone here have any experience with enochian? < 1284356079 0 :Fiber!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1284356089 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Enochian? < 1284357756 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GNU C allows nested functions, which can take values from the containing function, as well as being able to jump out to a label in its containing function. < 1284357856 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And to get pointers to those nested functions, it creates trampolines at runtime ... on the stack! < 1284358371 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Only if the functions close. < 1284358385 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If they don't close, then it's just sugar for a normal function. < 1284358397 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fair enough. < 1284358400 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know this because I did nasty things. < 1284358909 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1284358917 0 :augur!~augur@208-58-6-161.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1284359030 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Close? What do you mean by the functions close < 1284359215 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Close in the sense of ... err, a closure. < 1284359224 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, if the nested function refers to variables in the outer function's scope. < 1284359282 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Or, "close over variables". < 1284359322 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, OK. Refering to variables in the outer function's scope is one of its uses, for using these kind of function. Another use is jumping out of the function, to labels in the outer function. < 1284359377 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: This, incidentally, is undefined if the outer function has ceased to be off the stack. < 1284359412 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yes, but you would use it only before the outer function returns. < 1284359423 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(technically, just *calling* the inner function if the outer function is off the stack is undefined, but GCC implements it in such a way that it has reasonable behavior if there's no closing) < 1284359436 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: In which case you've just got something like a longjmp happening. < 1284359460 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might be called using a normal call, but it might also be used by a function pointer passed to another function < 1284360460 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1284360530 0 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-156-182.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1284360564 0 :Patashu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1284360835 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.8/20100722155716] < 1284361209 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1284361886 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1284362223 0 :Quadrescence!~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence JOIN :#esoteric < 1284364133 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1284364799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1284364800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1284365216 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: swatted to death < 1284368068 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1284368356 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1284369591 0 :Flonk!~chatzilla@93-82-46-50.adsl.highway.telekom.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1284370592 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I independently invented arithmetic coding last night < 1284370620 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if that means that the patents on it should have been rejected for obviousness? < 1284370729 0 :contingo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: quit(save="no") < 1284371769 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Is there any teaching in the prior art, as a whole, that would, not simply could, have prompted the skilled person, faced with the objective technical problem formulated when considering the technical features not disclosed by the closest prior art, to modify or adapt said closest prior art while taking account of that teaching, thereby arriving at something falling within the terms of the claims, and thus achieving what the invention achieves?" < 1284371777 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's only "could", not "would", then it's not obvious. < 1284371826 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e. just that you can independently invent it isn't enough; it also needs to be something you will necessarily "invent". < 1284371830 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't know how that works.) < 1284372216 0 :Leonidas!~Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1284372682 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it was the obvious solution, to me, of a problem I was having < 1284372803 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the obviousness, I guess it needs to be that for any "skilled person". I don't know how they measure that. < 1284372975 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1284375886 0 :derdon!~quassel@p5B3E3554.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1284376314 0 :Wamanuz2!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1284376520 0 :Wamanuz!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1284377650 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ... < 1284378237 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1284381340 0 :derdon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1284381399 0 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.50.208 JOIN :#esoteric < 1284381797 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1284382810 0 :oerjan!oerjan@129.241.210.46 JOIN :#esoteric < 1284383244 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1284383916 0 :derdon!~quassel@p5B3E6015.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1284384507 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1284384653 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1284387428 0 :Flonk_!~chatzilla@80-123-35-106.adsl.highway.telekom.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1284387522 0 :Flonk!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1284387530 0 :Flonk_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Flonk < 1284387878 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"< Fiber> Anyone here have any experience with enochian?" Well, it's a *language* I guess, but still. BZZZT. < 1284389102 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1284390102 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1284390392 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1284391308 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-12-88.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1284391435 0 :choochter!~choochter@nat/ibm/x-ecrcuongbwbewfvz JOIN :#esoteric < 1284391774 0 :cpressey_!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1284392015 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1284392365 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@137.125.185.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1284392389 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thank you, Windows XP, for taking 10 minutes to boot up to a degree where XChat is usable < 1284392404 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if there's a bootchart for Windows
< 1284392777 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm using irssi under cygwin! yay! < 1284392797 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just need to set up that bitlbee thing so i can use this for jabber stuff < 1284392921 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION epiphanies about a Factor thing
< 1284393213 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1284393541 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1284393558 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1284393692 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1284393720 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@137.125.185.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1284393899 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it just me, or was today's xkcd actually mildly amusing? < 1284394007 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1284394024 0 :ineiros!~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1284394028 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Impossible < 1284394032 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*looks* < 1284394117 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... lawl, OK, the last two panels make it :P < 1284394130 0 :augur_!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1284394188 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1284394363 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1284394375 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1284394580 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sigh* < 1284394591 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right now, we're looking at a slide on preincrement v postincrement < 1284394593 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION cries
< 1284394672 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo is BORED! < 1284394676 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl is a BORING thing! < 1284394957 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1284394969 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I titled my classwork submission "Laziness is a virtue (Haskell is lazier than Perl =P)" < 1284395010 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders what the laziest possible evaluation strategy is.
< 1284395232 0 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn37-87.vpn.utu.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1284395295 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe "evaluate NOTHING". < 1284395378 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Said submission titled was visible in front of everyone < 1284395381 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :She asked who Haskell was < 1284395392 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just occured to me that Haskell was, in fact, a person >.> < 1284395394 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(is?) < 1284395427 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not is. < 1284395441 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah :( < 1284395479 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although other people are called that, obviously. < 1284395681 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, Perl gets something right! < 1284395690 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The mandatory braces for things like if) < 1284395695 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell Curry < 1284395715 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he didn't actually invent currying functions, but the process is named after him anyway < 1284395811 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And he didn't invent Haskell! < 1284395827 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He did invent the Y combinator, but you can't have the Y combinator in Haskell! < 1284395967 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The braces aren't mandatory for postfix if, though. (Personally I dislike them.) < 1284396005 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a simple if, you can do it like this: "if(a) {b;}" becomes "a and b;" < 1284396054 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's true, though I've really only gotten into that habit with the "or die" case. < 1284396264 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :print "hello" or die? < 1284396284 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl is now my favourite language. < 1284396309 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, pretty much < 1284396314 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the program errors out if it can't print hello < 1284396320 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1284396324 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say, if stdout is connecte to a file that's read only < 1284396360 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fis@eris:~$ perl -e 'close STDOUT; print "hello" or die;' < 1284396360 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Died at -e line 1. < 1284396392 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, a Sgeo-meme is spreading! < 1284396464 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although Perl was my favourite language when I discovered Perligata. < 1284396641 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: the close STDOUT from inside the program is sort-of cheating < 1284396653 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try $ perl -e 'print "hello" or die;' >&- < 1284396663 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that closes stdout from the shell < 1284396668 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1284396682 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It doesn't seem to print anything here, though. < 1284396694 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, strange < 1284396710 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, what shell are you using? in csh, it probably closes stderr too < 1284396715 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because csh is insane < 1284396728 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bash. < 1284396751 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In other news, the - for >&n was a new thing for me.) < 1284396777 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<&- is my favourite quick way to test error conditions on stdin < 1284396783 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's sort-of hard to test otherwise, because it happens so rarely < 1284396890 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1284397124 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any question(s), please? < 1284397149 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: did you know flogscript is now on anagolf? < 1284397176 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes. < 1284397241 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have even sent in some entries, in FlogScript. < 1284397253 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And also some in other programming languages, too.) < 1284397290 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, currying should really be called schoenfinkeling. < 1284397308 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, schönfinkeling with the umlaut < 1284397320 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even better. < 1284397341 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds like it'd make you go blind. < 1284397398 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Only if you do it too much. < 1284397407 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose. < 1284397566 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you win a big spider yet? < 1284397692 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Do you find that you code better when you are warm or when you are cold? < 1284397787 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey_: I don't know. < 1284398096 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hadn't really thought about it until today < 1284398125 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neither have I < 1284398237 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: zzo38 < 1284398296 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, I have over a million points on anagolf < 1284398310 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :making me 47th < 1284398420 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1284398455 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-12-88.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1284398630 0 :madbrain!~madbrain@poste243-169.wl.t.ulaval.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1284398898 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1284399460 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :new anagolf problem, everyone! < 1284399844 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1284400074 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1284400487 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :line 103: assert(strcmp(buf, "11111001") == 0); < 1284400489 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :languages should be about abstractions, but the first ffi to come along just kills that idea. < 1284400495 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main.c:103:2: warning: string length ‘2219’ is greater than the length ‘509’ ISO C90 compilers are required to support < 1284400508 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone has a clue about what is going on? < 1284400517 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: that is extremely weird < 1284400527 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and buf it not some strange macro. It is just a char[9] or something about that size < 1284400572 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey_, indeed. I get it for every assert(strcmp(buffer,"string-literal") == 0) in that file if compiling at more than -O0 < 1284400580 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, assert is a macro < 1284400581 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1284400587 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't it include the error message < 1284400588 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: what if you move the strcmp expr out of the assert? < 1284400588 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or such < 1284400592 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION checks
< 1284400605 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahahahaha < 1284400610 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'll do that CPP paste thing to turn it into a string < 1284400618 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey_, you know assert() prints out the failed assertion? < 1284400622 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes... < 1284400626 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I changed that to 1 < 1284400629 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to see what it was < 1284400631 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me pastebin it XD < 1284400650 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey_, http://sprunge.us/LEHG < 1284400673 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey_, I think that strcmp might be macroified for constant strings glibc headers < 1284400675 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :magic < 1284400676 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice! < 1284400694 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey_, quite horrible yes < 1284400726 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :recent gcc and its builtins stuff has not been happy-making < 1284400806 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey_, I blame glibc headers here rather < 1284400867 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure. i neither know nor can i make myself care < 1284400885 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all i know is i now see 'builtin' when gcc fails to do its job < 1284400901 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this is yet another example :) < 1284400954 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey_, nah it isn't really. It is actually glibc header magic... < 1284400963 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm 98% certain < 1284400977 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey_, it wouldn't expand to that if done inside the compiler < 1284401191 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks as if it comes from /usr/include/bits/string2.h. < 1284401262 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lots of pretty macros in that file. < 1284401299 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, presumably with newlines and indention though < 1284401306 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which should make it less painful < 1284401320 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes, but it's still not really pretty. < 1284401659 0 :choochter!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: lang may yer lum reek.. < 1284401723 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@i-137.vc-graz.ac.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1284402338 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1284403191 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1284403823 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@137.125.178.117 JOIN :#esoteric < 1284404063 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1284404154 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: by 'gcc' i meant 'when i type gcc', not the compiler. < 1284404177 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know you can use other c libraries than glibc with gcc -- that's not the point. < 1284404443 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1284405337 0 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@32.165.35.38 JOIN :#esoteric < 1284405439 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1284406136 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1284406520 0 :relet!~thomas@c905DBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1284406651 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, there's $10,000 going for a disproof of the Time Cube. < 1284407421 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, I'm not well versed in the crazy scientific method < 1284407660 0 :alise!~alise@91.104.246.49 JOIN :#esoteric < 1284407672 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1284407893 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: the problem is that the prize is authored by the guy who authored time cube < 1284407902 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have to actually convince him < 1284407910 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, yes... < 1284407916 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a problem... < 1284408000 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: coppro: (Sgeo if he was here) I may be working on leaden today or in the next few days... < 1284408008 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Leaden? < 1284408046 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: the predecessor to amend. < 1284408053 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Amend? < 1284408065 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/10.09.12 < 1284408126 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: (grep "amend") < 1284408156 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that crazy ed thing. < 1284408171 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ed? < 1284408174 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing to do with ed < 1284408223 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I am confused. < 1284408242 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Search for "ASK WHAT AMEND IS DAMMIT". < 1284408245 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the start of the conversation. < 1284408252 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sam was the crazy ed thing. < 1284408332 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And amend is presumably the editor you'd write for Lisp86 when it has such nice things as existence and an actual name. < 1284408350 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Well, if you grepped for "ASK WHAT AMEND IS DAMMIT", you'd find out exactly what it is. < 1284408385 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I read that, which is why I came to this conclusion. < 1284408394 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it's what I'm writing round about now. :P < 1284408404 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I already had a prototype version but I think it may have been deleted. < 1284408410 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or otherwise misplaced. < 1284408413 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The saving system is basically < 1284408418 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awesome, yes. < 1284408429 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :L86's hypothetical one emulated with conventional filesystems. < 1284408440 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DAMMIT WE NEED A BETTER NAME THAN LISP86 < 1284408441 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty similar, yeah < 1284408447 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lisp86 is a decent enough name < 1284408455 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it's more Lisp64 < 1284408481 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I stopped saying x64 when Gregor said I was a terrible person for it. < 1284408493 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x86-64 < 1284408495 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> Lisp64 < 1284408505 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you want to say Lisp86-64, which is ludicrous. < 1284408513 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. < 1284408531 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I want a pretentious name! < 1284408541 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Opal. < 1284408543 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Flow. < 1284408547 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :React. < 1284408553 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plato. < 1284408556 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Socrates. < 1284408560 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(When all else fails, list Greek scholars.) < 1284408564 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hermeneutics! < 1284408574 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Archaeology! < 1284408581 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't get much more pretentious than hermeneutics. < 1284408598 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Lemma < 1284408599 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!postmodern < 1284408605 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!postmodern Operating system < 1284408606 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Operating system < 1284408610 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!postmodern The operating system of the future < 1284408611 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tted Kennedy operating system of tted Kennedy future < 1284408615 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a rather crappy filter. < 1284408616 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, naw, that's what we'll call the proof assistant. < 1284408623 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Do we have to have one of those? < 1284408624 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Lemma, that is) < 1284408635 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you've got to have a proof assistant! < 1284408644 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HOW ELSE WILL YOU PROVE THINGS? < 1284408645 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm so bored of proof assistants. < 1284408669 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it'll be a LISP OS proof assistant! < 1284408751 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ANYWAY < 1284408807 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:59:00 * Sgeo asks for Symantec to scan < 1284408811 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You use SYMANTEC? < 1284408815 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA < 1284408819 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA < 1284408823 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA < 1284408826 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhem. < 1284408834 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[after long virus checking] < 1284408835 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:04:34 I didn't actually run the thing < 1284408837 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well that was pointless. < 1284408862 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:11:04 I prefer screen for talking with a remote system that's going to drop me. < 1284408865 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as I understand, all virus scanners suck in the non-alise sense. < 1284408866 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dtach? < 1284408871 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: NOD32 is pretty cool < 1284408878 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Symantec though? Really? < 1284408890 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...of course, the whole idea of a virus scanner is pretty stupid, but ignoring that < 1284408891 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Norton's the utterly crap one, isn't it? < 1284408898 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And McAffe. < 1284408902 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*McAfee. < 1284408921 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Symantec = Norton. < 1284408926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Norton is just their brand. < 1284408936 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahh. < 1284408939 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :McAfee is impressively shitty. < 1284408960 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't Norton the one which sometimes gets confused and thinks itself a virus? < 1284408966 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No idea. < 1284408991 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And McAfee the one which vapourises system files on the off chance that they are malicious < 1284409000 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Can I have £171.71 to buy a keyboard with, please? Thanks. < 1284409012 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...No. < 1284409020 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I, uh... that is to say, please? < 1284409033 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's wrong with your keyboard? < 1284409053 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uhh, nothing is particularly wrong with it, other than it not being terribly good. It's not broken or anything. < 1284409099 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And why should I provide you with a new one? < 1284409100 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION smashes alise's keyboard with a mallet.
< 1284409111 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: See, now you have to. < 1284409111 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There, solution problemed. < 1284409129 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, make Gregor do it! < 1284409135 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Or I won't provide any more ridiculously pipe-dreamy ideas for Lisp86 any more. < 1284409136 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He broke the damn thing? < 1284409152 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And anyway, how are you typing if Gregor smashed your keyboard in with a mallet? < 1284409155 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND THEN WHAT WILL YOU DO, BEING ABLE TO RELEASE THINGS THAT ARE EVEN VAGUELY RECOGNISABLE AS CONVENTIONAL OPERATING SYSTEMS IN A REASONABLE AMOUNT OF TIME?! < 1284409161 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am using an on-screen keyboard. REALLY QUICKLY < 1284409171 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: He's on his iPaddlePodoTouchiePhone < 1284409172 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::Mouse skillz: < 1284409180 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The bad man touched me in the phone." < 1284409194 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, that's the iPaddlePedoTouchiePhone < 1284409209 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, for the brits, the iPaddlePaedoTouchiePhone < 1284409744 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: GIVE ME THE MONEY < 1284409748 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's only £171.71! < 1284409756 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, noooo < 1284409766 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that's a prefix of the repeating pattern 171717171...! < 1284409769 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: If it was 171.70 he'd be all over it. < 1284409771 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is an omen, so give me the money! < 1284409773 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I stitched all of my money into a blanket. < 1284409780 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UNSTITCH IT < 1284409781 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...OR DIE < 1284409792 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use it to keep myself warm at night. < 1284409801 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I have the Device. < 1284409818 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You would be unwise to try to kill me. < 1284409830 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooooh, The Device. < 1284409834 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're so scaaaaaa*gack* < 1284409864 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BWAHAHA < 1284409867 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I think you will find that the Device ... is no longer there. < 1284409871 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION holds up the Device
< 1284409872 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1284409878 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, pah! < 1284409882 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It only works for me! < 1284409895 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Security... override, power... maximum, target... Phantom_Hoover... < 1284409899 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I still have my deion laser! < 1284409907 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shoots self with deions.
< 1284409912 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kickassery... complete and utter. < 1284409912 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is as unto a god.
< 1284409914 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, Phantom_Hoover. < 1284409918 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the false deion laser I planted there. < 1284409921 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*holds up deion laser* < 1284409931 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's actually just a whiteboard pointer. < 1284409933 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION holds up real Device.
< 1284409941 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION holds up the real real Device.
< 1284409952 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION holds up real real real Device.
< 1284409953 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have an infinite supply of these; you might as well just give up. < 1284409965 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION holds up the real real real real real real real real real Device.
< 1284409976 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION holds up the coinductive real Device.
< 1284409984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION kicks you before you have the chance to turn it on.
< 1284409989 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION steals it.
< 1284409993 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION blocks the kick
< 1284409995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION bashes your head unconscious.
< 1284409997 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, shut up. < 1284410002 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I already fired deion particles at myself. < 1284410003 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders what the hell that means
< 1284410012 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am, therefore, undefeatable. < 1284410025 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You do not know the true effects of deions! < 1284410036 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your brain shall be mashed into fundamentalism! < 1284410095 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MWAHAHAHAHAHA < 1284410103 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION puts on labcoat.
< 1284410116 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:35:02 Pointfreeness? < 1284410116 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:42:18 with no arguments < 1284410117 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :untrue < 1284410133 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: It turns out that, like Zaphod Beeblebrox, I am already God. < 1284410155 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now... to the small matter of the money. < 1284410155 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1284410159 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ZB was only God inside Zarniwoops reality simulator! < 1284410167 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Zarniwoop's < 1284410176 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you think this reality isn't simulated? < 1284410180 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How pathetic! < 1284410214 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1284410217 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION exits the simulation.
< 1284410231 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION rewrites it with a screwdriver and a Van de Graaf generator.
< 1284410378 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You cannot leave! < 1284410381 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did not give you a red pill. < 1284410383 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or a telephone. < 1284410390 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or a mirror to melt into. < 1284410434 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, well, the root password is actually "password". < 1284410449 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sudo unmount /people/Phantom_Hoover < 1284410483 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote the simulation, in part. < 1284410485 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not that stupid. < 1284410514 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1284410518 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah? Well I wrote the rest of the simulation! < 1284410526 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You can't see that, but I said "Computer, delete character Phantom_Hoo-- actually, never mind.") < 1284410546 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WELL I WROTE THE SIMULATION THE SIMULATION IS RUNNING IN < 1284410595 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wrong. < 1284410596 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your clone did. < 1284410607 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I AM YOUR FATHER < 1284410638 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wrong. < 1284410642 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your clone is. < 1284410672 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but I am the clone's father! < 1284410742 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wrong. < 1284410744 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your clone is. < 1284410819 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later < 1284410834 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am your evil twin! < 1284410858 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Vorpal: by 'gcc' i meant 'when i type gcc', not the compiler. < 1284410858 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : i know you can use other c libraries than glibc with gcc -- that's not the point. < 1284410862 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what then *is* the point* < 1284410873 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ p/ *p/ < 1284410881 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, the point is that you're getting in the way < 1284410892 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, ...? < 1284410900 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1284410909 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, do you have any clue what you are replying to? < 1284410925 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, the person you think is my clone is actually me having time travelled. < 1284410939 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Wrong. That's what your clone wanted you to think. < 1284410953 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, that's what I want my clone to think. < 1284410956 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wrong! < 1284410972 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wrong! < 1284410976 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1284410981 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what your unborn sister would like your mother's child's brother's grandfather's friend's dog's fleas' son's descendent's lover's sons to think. < 1284411069 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that's what they want Vorpal to want you to think. < 1284411095 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately for them, Vorpal has an impenetrable defence: he never thinks! < 1284411138 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The scoundrel! < 1284411190 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that is what you want your mother to think that you think. < 1284411191 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, do you actually plan to do anything majorly different to the Loper OS guy? < 1284411225 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Some stuff. < 1284411230 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Case in point. < 1284411232 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such as? < 1284411248 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that is what you want yourself to think (aka, wishful thinking) < 1284411491 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, examples?? < 1284411511 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: stuff < 1284411535 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What stuff? < 1284411537 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any stuff? < 1284411542 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :STUFF OF DEATH < 1284411542 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Philosophical stuff? < 1284411545 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Implication stuff? < 1284411550 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :loper OS? < 1284411553 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which one is that? < 1284411556 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: don't tell him < 1284411569 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or we'll get Vorpal's Criticism of Loper OS, Message 1 of 734 < 1284411601 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, http://www.loper-os.org/ ? < 1284411607 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1284411611 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's some random kid's blog < 1284411614 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :utterly uncommentable on < 1284411632 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, http://code.google.com/p/loper/ ? < 1284411643 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, some random project. < 1284411648 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah dunno what that is < 1284411666 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so link then < 1284411673 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1284411679 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://code.google.com/p/loper/ seems rather interesting btw < 1284411688 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope, it's so boring I can barely comprehend it. La la la la < 1284411698 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's complete madness. < 1284411702 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1284411705 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, I disagree < 1284411707 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lisp on hardware? That's inefficient! < 1284411707 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing that we'd be interested in. < 1284411710 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah! < 1284411719 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It needs backwards compatibility with POSIX/C. < 1284411721 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, now you are just silly < 1284411722 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An OS not written in C will never succeed! < 1284411723 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otherwise it's doomed to failure. < 1284411728 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: See, it's obvious. < 1284411728 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you know I love lisp machines < 1284411748 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides. Writing a C compiler targeting lisp machines has been done before < 1284411760 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it isn't exactly problematic to be able to port software over < 1284411766 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That one doesn't appear to run arbitrary code. < 1284411766 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah! Show those smug Lispers who's best! < 1284411780 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the fuck are you on about < 1284411811 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, just how stupid that Loper OS thing is. < 1284411847 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, I disagree though. It seems quite interesting. Of course I haven't looked into the details < 1284411853 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're stupid! < 1284411875 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially the bit about removing the disk/RAM dichotomy is interesting. And a lot more viable with modern fast flash based disks < 1284411879 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :than with old harddrives < 1284411883 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, oh, no! It has those crazy filesystem ideas! < 1284411891 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, what is wrong with those? < 1284411893 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that's so stupid I can barely even think. < 1284411913 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, your acting skill is poor. < 1284411922 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you would completely fail at poker you know < 1284411923 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, your paranoia is in top form today. < 1284412055 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact I would say that project seems thoroughly on the right path. At least from the limited info I have been able to find on it., < 1284412056 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ti* < 1284412058 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it* < 1284412117 0 :yiyus_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1284412120 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why are you trying to rebut someone you strongly believe to me just fucking with you? < 1284412174 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, am I? < 1284412179 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : in fact I would say that project seems thoroughly on the right path. At least from the limited info I have been able to find on it., < 1284412197 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yes, as you can see I didn't direct it at any specific person in here < 1284412216 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Completely irrelevant to your fascinating discussion, but dang, that's some quality bitterness in the SVN trunk's README of that code.google-link. < 1284412231 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh indeed, I noticed that too < 1284412233 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1284412256 0 :yiyus_!1242712427@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1284412284 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: We are, obviously, fucking with you, and that is the Loper we were talking about. < 1284412294 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: He's a rather bitchy fellow. < 1284412386 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't seem nearly as bad as the ion guy though. And much less insane. < 1284412407 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The blog has a bit more wrongness, but yeah, he's not as bitchy as tuomov. < 1284412414 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tuomov actually has some quite similar ideas, though. < 1284412427 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :His packaging design was the best I've seen yet (based on cryptographically-signed API signatures). < 1284412478 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, anything like the versioned modules stuff of the linux kernel? < 1284412514 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't recall. < 1284412533 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was very good though, although of course surrounded by explanations of how everything else sucks, like everything tuomov writes. < 1284412544 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, I put on my filtration goggles and after that his blog was an interesting read. It's gone now though. < 1284412584 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, anyway, hm you have similar ideas to these two. And you are bitchy too. 100% of the people preferring to replace concepts like file systems are bitchy? XD < 1284412625 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, his blog is gone? < 1284412626 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm less bitchy than tuomov. < 1284412636 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...see, that's their orthographically-tuned web personas. < 1284412639 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yes I didn't say you were as bad. Just more than average < 1284412641 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Imagine what tuomov is like on IRC. < 1284412652 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yeah his site is gone < 1284412655 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, a lot more nasty? < 1284412664 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ion with it? < 1284412676 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: indeed, although there are mirrors < 1284412680 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there hadn't been a release in ages < 1284412745 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, didn't he jump ship to Windows-land anyway? < 1284412764 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. But he was planning to develop ion anyway, using an X11 server. < 1284412771 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I think he got disillusioned with the idea. Not sure. < 1284412771 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hm and while I would like to see file system replaced (though hierarchical organisation of data can still be useful for some tasks) I'm not enough annoyed by them to actually start replacing them myself. Besides I can't think of a good replacement that actually works... < 1284412791 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"though hierarchical organisation of data can still be useful for some tasks" ;; nothing ever stopped you creating a HashTree object < 1284412814 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, indeed. Or a radix tree perhaps? < 1284412821 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AssociativeTree < 1284412822 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think a radix tree would be closer to a file system < 1284412823 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know what i mean < 1284412825 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :implementation is irrelevant :P < 1284412849 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, actually that sort of tree implements a flat namespace outwards < 1284412854 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while a radix tree would not < 1284412868 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, whatever. < 1284412881 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd hide it behind an api :P < 1284412883 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, but sets is another very useful data type < 1284412892 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instantiate a Set object < 1284412897 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-- these don't have to be OOP objects < 1284412903 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"construct a set value", etc < 1284412904 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*etc. < 1284412911 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, where the set is inherently de-duplicative too < 1284412913 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is cool < 1284412924 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deduplicative storage should be a feature of all orthogonal persistence systems :) < 1284412943 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, there's no reason not to just use the same organisation methods on disk as we do in memory; orthogonal persistence is of course ideal for this < 1284412953 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I do hope there is a way to GC data though. I mean, 300 GB in a laptop? Easy to run out of that < 1284412964 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember venti having any sort of GC < 1284412965 0 :Flonk!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.9/20100824153629] < 1284412967 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you don't want to gc your personal files < 1284412976 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :venti is /not/ suitable for a laptop :P < 1284412982 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, indeed < 1284412985 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: deduplicative doesn't necessarily mean never-deleting < 1284412987 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I might want to GC old versions of files and so < 1284412988 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at all < 1284412991 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, very true < 1284412997 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, but venti does iirc < 1284412999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although in my ideal system it does mean automatically-versioning < 1284413011 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with some kind of GC; it's pipe-dream enough that I haven't thought about the implementation too much) < 1284413036 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, even with 1 TB of storage you could easily run out. I mean, downloading tv shows? Then you might want to delete those at some point < 1284413047 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: well, of course there will be a big delete button < 1284413060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1284413061 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, while being able to just add in more TBs would be awesome, it is not realistic < 1284413061 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not big < 1284413061 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1284413063 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty small actually < 1284413066 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you know what i mean < 1284413077 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you are google < 1284413078 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this appears to be a fascinating conversation, i wish i wasn't busy < 1284413084 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey_, hah < 1284413127 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION isn't very bitchy at all.
< 1284413137 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what about compression? For example, I had two large things on my laptop: icc and nwn. I compressed both to one squashfs each. Saved about 8 GB together. < 1284413143 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and fast enough from tests < 1284413171 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, for "mostly read only" data like such, some transparent compression might be nice < 1284413203 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah there will probably be some sort of heuristic for that < 1284413212 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heuristic upon heuristics < 1284413220 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: there will also probably be some sort of TransparentCompressionObject < 1284413234 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well, might be a bit tricky, allowing manual marking as well might be useful. Because heuristics are by definition not exact < 1284413237 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that compresses the object serialisation, or just some byte-array field of it, with some compression algorithm < 1284413241 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and makes it behave just like the uncompressed object < 1284413246 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :caching the uncompressed version if it's not too big < 1284413250 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The issue of fragmentation over time is still niggly, though) < 1284413253 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes everything will be manually settable too < 1284413256 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: not if you use a Torsion-style system < 1284413259 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1284413270 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, hm? Fragmentation is not that much of an issue on SSD < 1284413271 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, neither of us understand Torsion-style systems. < 1284413276 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do! < 1284413276 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sort of. < 1284413280 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :torsion groups! < 1284413282 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just paging on a disk. < 1284413289 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what is Torsion-style? I never heard of it before < 1284413289 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sort of like a fileystem does it, really. < 1284413301 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then what the hell was I picking through the source for‽ < 1284413301 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Phantom_Hoover, hm? Fragmentation is not that much of an issue on SSD ;; it is when all your objects are N apart < 1284413306 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you want to allocate an N+1-sized object < 1284413311 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: to make sure! I had no idea before you told me. < 1284413312 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, oh good point < 1284413322 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you need to fragment the new object then yes < 1284413329 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I wouldn't trust me as far as I could throw me! < 1284413337 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I couldn't throw me very far! < 1284413338 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: now name one language that fragments objects :P < 1284413338 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, which lead to some bookkeeping overhead indeed. And a tiny slowdown < 1284413347 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you want a third address space < 1284413351 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that disk and ram both map to < 1284413355 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than using disk as the address space directly < 1284413358 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1284413359 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is what Torsion does. < 1284413364 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, indeed. < 1284413376 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone here use Chrome? < 1284413382 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wondering whether to use stable, beta or dev < 1284413390 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All three! < 1284413401 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, this would probably require special hardware support to do it in a non-painful way. Both from "ease of use for programming against" and "speed" < 1284413408 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: no < 1284413412 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either that or disallow native code < 1284413412 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the algorithms are simple enough < 1284413415 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter, yes < 1284413415 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and JIT everything < 1284413416 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1284413423 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not like we have backwards compatibility of any sort in the first place < 1284413439 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're basically creating a radical lisp machine on top of a standard computer < 1284413445 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, why no native code? < 1284413449 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: he's right. < 1284413452 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you have to agree there is something special about poking hardware registers directly though. A special feeling < 1284413455 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and because it could basically bypass the system security < 1284413458 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also mess up more or less everything < 1284413459 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, oh? < 1284413472 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, it's machine code and we don't use a traditional process style < 1284413472 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need an explanation! < 1284413476 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so I'm a bit sad about seeing asm hacks going away < 1284413477 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the processor won't help us much :P < 1284413492 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: well, you can peek and poke memory from the top privilege level (how do you think we interface with hardware?) < 1284413497 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i suppose jmp to it :P < 1284413507 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hm true < 1284413509 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but anyone but the OS or a really stupid user using that would be ... bad < 1284413512 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so wait, what's wrong with native code? < 1284413514 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have an easy solution. I'll design an OS that is the exact opposite of what alise and Phantom_Hoover's is < 1284413519 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and yes I realise at some point you need to interface it < 1284413520 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Vorpal can use that < 1284413551 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course i'll need to read this log later to find out what exactly that is < 1284413556 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey_: oh be nice, he's actually expressing reasonable opinions here < 1284413564 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: it subverts the whole model, basically < 1284413578 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!! < 1284413581 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey_, oh I love something lisp machine based. I'm just saying that if we are doing it on off-the-shelf hardware, then I find the occasional asm hackery quite nice. < 1284413583 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would never be anything other than nice :) < 1284413587 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1284413590 0 :alise!~alise@91.104.246.49 JOIN :#esoteric < 1284413592 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oops. < 1284413598 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, do you mean native code that hasn't been compiled by the Grand High Compiler? < 1284413612 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1284413614 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1284413616 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-ChanServ- [#chromium-support] Welcome to #chromium-support, if you are using linux, please specify which distro. Remember that ArchLinux is not supported. < 1284413620 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arch: the new Gentoo < 1284413621 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, indeed. I mean the occasional manual asm < 1284413635 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, why is arch not supported? < 1284413636 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, well, I think I gave that some thought. < 1284413653 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, its a binary distro ffs < 1284413672 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We came to the conclusion that assembly would be allowed at a very high privilege level. < 1284413684 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: the chrome package isn't < 1284413687 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, from this I presume you run all in ring 1 with one large memory page? < 1284413692 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, presumably for the same reason as Gentoo < 1284413694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : alise, from this I presume you run all in ring 1 with one large memory page? < 1284413696 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably, maybe < 1284413697 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so they support gentoo? < 1284413702 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, since it is not listed there < 1284413702 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we might be able to use paging for our own perverse advantage < 1284413705 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: nobody uses Gentoo :) < 1284413714 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, pikhq does < 1284413719 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just saying that people used to not support Gentoo because of the userbase and the devs doing silly things < 1284413727 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I thought we were using paging to implement the RAM-side abstract memory space/ < 1284413736 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now people don't support Arch -- based on a sample size of one -- because of the userbase and AUR package writers doing silly things. < 1284413739 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Yes, quite possibly. < 1284413751 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The userbase has stopped expecting to be supported for doing silly things, and the devs have stopped doing silly things. < 1284413779 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hm so not using one singe hugepage then? < 1284413786 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, no TLB misses = awesome < 1284413797 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I may be sounding terribly sane, but using anything other than paging for that is going to devastate performance. < 1284413799 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course your idea is even more awesome < 1284413799 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Well, we might use a big hugepage. < 1284413809 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After all, the actual memory access is near-irrelevant. < 1284413814 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, indeed < 1284413815 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As long as you can refer to an object in the Lisp and get the right thing back. < 1284413821 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The choice is basically for performance and memory usage. < 1284413833 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, completely self-implemented? < 1284413836 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1284413842 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(without multi-paging you could possibly use less memory space due to not having to map a page at a time) < 1284413842 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no forth at the base? < 1284413846 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just asm and lisp? < 1284413848 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, maybe. < 1284413852 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But probably just asm. < 1284413862 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, we're going to be doing horrible, rapey things to the hardware to get it to do our evil bidding for us. < 1284413865 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So might as well... < 1284413880 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You tried to install a file that does not (or no longer) exist." --GDebi < 1284413883 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if only we could get lisp *all* the way down < 1284413896 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Lisp Machine. Gosh. < 1284413903 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yeah duh < 1284413903 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or do you mean replace electricity with little (s and )s? < 1284413910 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I meant on *stock hardware* < 1284413919 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Writeable microcode! < 1284413924 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck yeah! < 1284413928 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well, perhaps. < 1284413932 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"But alise, microcode isn't Lisp!" < 1284413937 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Writeable nanocode! < 1284413938 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck yeah! < 1284413945 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I think the intel microcode is rather limited. < 1284413954 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, it couldn't be made to do that < 1284413965 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if you reverse engineered it < 1284413980 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, ideally I'd build the most beautiful Lisp computers ever and raise them up with kittens to be the most amazingly fluffy computing devices ever to exist. < 1284413989 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that would require moving from my current position, and as a rule, I don't do that! < 1284413994 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So stock hardware it is. < 1284414005 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also there is the money thing.) < 1284414089 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sexplectricity < 1284414110 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that the awful pun I think it is? < 1284414122 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION watches so-called "reality" start to bend in front of him
< 1284414134 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(((()))) < 1284414136 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ALL THE WORLD IS A CAR < 1284414140 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND YOU ARE DRIVING ON THE ROAD TO THE END < 1284414141 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THE RAPTURE < 1284414142 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THE AWAKENING < 1284414144 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THE... CDR < 1284414150 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so wait, we have to write a nice compiler that can do everything *in x86 assembly*? < 1284414151 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not so much a pun as it is a forcemanteau < 1284414156 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, um if all the word is a car, so is the cdr :P < 1284414156 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CONS CELL, in cinemas September. < 1284414161 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forcemanteau <3 < 1284414163 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: x86-64! < 1284414172 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: And, uh, well, not the entire compiler, I guess. < 1284414177 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That can be bootstrapped from a more minimal thingy. < 1284414180 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, why? Just write eval < 1284414181 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the runtime, yup. < 1284414181 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1284414193 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, couldn't parts of the runtime be implemented in lisp itself? < 1284414198 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Hey, MenuetOS has a web browser and a DVD player and ... and it's written entirely in assembly. < 1284414202 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure we can manage! < 1284414207 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well... < 1284414211 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Well, that'd be the standard library. But sort of, yeah. < 1284414216 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: MAN UP AND STOP BITCHING. < 1284414230 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you bitch constantly! < 1284414234 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: BITCH UP AND STOP MANNING < 1284414238 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I mean... the GC and other memory management would probably need to be asm. And some hardware interfacing. But apart from that? < 1284414244 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: RESPECT YOUR ELDERS < 1284414247 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Who knows! < 1284414265 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, okay add some interrupt handling and process scheduling to that < 1284414282 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still, you can get away with the majority, including the compiler in lisp < 1284414298 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be nice if the compiler gave Magical Direct Memory Access at a high enough privilege level. < 1284414299 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno, i'd like to be able to bootstrap from a unix machine < 1284414300 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course you still need to generate machine code from the compiler (and/or the JIT) < 1284414308 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: i just said it would :P < 1284414309 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for drivers < 1284414316 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So we could write basically _everything_ other than the bootloader in Lisp. < 1284414317 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so write a cross compiler in scheme or something < 1284414328 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yeah, maintaining two compilers for the most wonderful dialect of Lisp ever invented < 1284414333 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to get away from Unix! < 1284414340 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, the GC will be tricky in lisp too < 1284414356 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, only needed for initial bootstrap obviously < 1284414361 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, make a bootstrap, crappy compiler in x86-64 asm. < 1284414364 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, once it is self hosting: no longer needed < 1284414383 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: as i said, i'd like to maintain unix bootstrap as long as i can :P < 1284414389 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: then why write it in lisp? just keep it in asm < 1284414390 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is sufficiently general that it can be compiled and linked to normal code on x86-64 unix. < 1284414390 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what for? < 1284414412 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We then compile the good compiler, written in Lisp, with the crappy compiler. < 1284414440 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I think writing a good compiler in pure asm will be highly painful < 1284414460 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, imagine trying to do transformations on the SSA form, in asm < 1284414503 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay fine < 1284414504 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders to what degree CL compilers inline.
< 1284414529 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird@dinky:~/.config$ rm -rf chromium/ google-chrome/ < 1284414529 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rm: cannot remove directory `google-chrome/Default/User StyleSheets': Directory not empty < 1284414529 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er... < 1284414629 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems to depend on how optimised it is... < 1284414634 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Quit < 1284414763 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, OK, so where do we still have gapingly huge voids in the architecture? < 1284414808 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everywhere! < 1284414855 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hence "gapingly huge" i.e. we haven't even considered it. < 1284414888 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@137.125.178.117 JOIN :#esoteric < 1284414911 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everywhere! < 1284414923 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, the UI, to a large degree. But I'll handle that tyvm >_> < 1284414937 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I had decided on this long ago. < 1284414959 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm... Oh, how do we handle the whole persistent-vs.-nonpersistent thing? < 1284414973 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My current take is: don't even bother. Persist everything. GC will handle the rest. < 1284414985 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We can buffer writes or whatever to avoid thrashing the disk. < 1284414991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe only persist an object after it's existed for, oh, 100ms. < 1284415004 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Resuming stuff without some objects it depends on would be strange, though. So maybe we should just persist everything. < 1284415092 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well, I think modern GCs use magic to analyse objects being created for how long they'll probably last. < 1284415130 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Nope. < 1284415134 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by modern GCs you mean state of the art :P < 1284415148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: our GC job is super-fun < 1284415156 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it has to be both really good (FUCKING HUGE OBJECTSPACE) < 1284415162 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and able to be run in a background thread < 1284415164 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without much disturbance < 1284415166 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woo < 1284415176 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think we should only gc certain subsets of objectspace < 1284415177 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Magic analysis is state-of-the-art, not merely "modern". Also, hard. < 1284415177 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somehow < 1284415178 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at a time < 1284415244 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Magic analysis" < 1284415276 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Restrict Lisp64 to processors with MAGIC extensions? < 1284415288 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Yes. It uses magic to analyse the magic, thereby flimming the flange, and thus it collects the garbage from the wimble heap. < 1284415321 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HEY CPRESSEY: EIGHTEBED IS SOOOO UNDERWHELMING < 1284415325 0 :derdon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1284415332 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NEEDS MAGIC ANALYSIS < 1284415359 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/ccfc/ Look at how awesome I am at web design! < 1284415368 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ubuntu 10.04.1 review: yup, it still annoys you in a million different ways. Yup, it's still the only way you can use Linux on a regular desktop system and not get more than mildly ignored on a daily basis without constructing your whole environment from scratch. < 1284415387 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: It's even a FREAKY! I mean WIKI! < 1284415401 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WIKIS ARE THE FOOTUR < 1284415420 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, what is spamuser about? < 1284415425 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: :P < 1284415441 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :spamuser is where there is a bunch of people < 1284415441 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: They make "poorly-drawn comics" from spam subject lines. < 1284415442 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they spam < 1284415447 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: SHUT UP DO NOT TELL HIM < 1284415466 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Spam spam spam user and spam. < 1284415471 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: How can you like Spamusement!, it's drawn by a well-known Mac fan! < 1284415478 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, awesome < 1284415494 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I like Spamusers more than Spamusement, and Clueless more than StevenF :P < 1284415503 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: That's what she said. < 1284415547 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So how is stuff going to be GCed? < 1284415556 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Very, very cleverly. < 1284415563 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not even Hotspot's GC can do what we want. < 1284415574 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Symbolics just used a stop-the-world mark-and-sweep, which was hilariously idiotic. < 1284415584 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In that the machine would suddenly freeze up and blink a square for a few seconds when it felt like it. < 1284415601 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Almost every GC in popular use is stop-the-world. < 1284415610 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you don't stop the world, you need guards. Great for real-time, bad for fast-time. < 1284415635 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: actually, an in-thread mark and sweep is quite easy < 1284415644 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm... when a process is running, isn't the rest of the world "stopped"? < 1284415651 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Not if you have more than one core! < 1284415659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, uh, yeah, but... stop-the-world means "don't run ANYTHING until we're done". < 1284415661 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I was thinking that. < 1284415693 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, we could possible make GCing work similarly to the process-switch code... < 1284415700 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*possibly < 1284415717 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Spawn a new thread. Copy whatever data structure lets you know which memory locations are free. Allocate a bit-array as long as the number of objects currently allocated, with the possibility for expansion. Go through the heap. Do the mark stuff to the bit-array, but don't mark it if it's in the free list (i.e., it's a new object since we started). < 1284415722 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finally, free 'em all up. < 1284415735 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, don't free it if it's in the free list, that is. < 1284415739 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know what I mean. < 1284415752 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Oh yeah, I remember that idea. < 1284415763 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so does this happen with a similar mechanism to process-switching? < 1284415769 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: The GC? No. < 1284415771 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: But to copy the data structures you need to ... copy the entire heap. < 1284415772 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The GC needs to be very tricksy. < 1284415777 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It will be an integral part of the OS. < 1284415782 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: No, just the free list or whatever. < 1284415785 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As will multitasking. < 1284415787 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, alise: why not split it up in different arenas? Presumably you will have some non-stored results. Or are you going to write the result of every calculating out to memory? Like an intermediate result when doing a floating point calculation? < 1284415789 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever malloc uses to decide "what memory locations can I give out?" < 1284415834 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, not spilling registers to main memory is an important optimisation of compilers. Good register allocation. < 1284415842 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, I would love if you didn't have to < 1284415848 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :steal lua's gc < 1284415854 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1284415860 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the speed difference is actually quite noticeable for some sort of tasks < 1284415880 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey_, we can't steal an existing GC for this. < 1284415884 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: the first version of the OS will probably be very stupid and inefficient. < 1284415889 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's alright. < 1284415890 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wants you to steal it !! < 1284415893 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, quite. < 1284415898 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, we can't even GC the whole objectspace. < 1284415914 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you want to GC all 4358935793457934579834759835739845 things you've consumed, written, or whatever, in the past whatever. < 1284415919 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You need to do it bit-by-bit. < 1284415923 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, just avoid making fundamental design decisions stupid and inefficient. < 1284415927 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd be like stealing a toothpick to use as a javelin. < 1284415932 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Indeed. < 1284415940 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, inefficient implementation is a lot easier to correct than inefficient design < 1284415947 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: oh so that's what i did wrong < 1284415961 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: of course, we'll end up totally iterating with new code many times before we actually figure out what we need to do... < 1284415963 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: So, you want an incremental garbage collector. < 1284415965 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we ever do anything :P < 1284415981 0 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1284415990 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, are you very clever? < 1284415994 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Incremental, parallel-with-code, generational, concurrent (i.e. multithreaded), non-resource-heavy GC of wisdom and happiness and fluffy pink rainbow unicorn kittens. < 1284415996 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and designing around "no non-persistent state" to the degree that if you calculate a+b+c you need to write out a+b to memory before calculating that + c would be ... daft. < 1284415999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: And a pony! < 1284416004 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: less so than i used to be < 1284416008 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yes, well, that's a compiler optimisation. :P < 1284416020 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Sooo... You want what GHC wants. < 1284416020 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, there's the solution, then. < 1284416026 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sort-of golfed ais's new "Cancel fractions" anagolf problem in Forth -- not well, 173 bytes, but anyway -- and here's the stderr of the working (anagolf ignores it) entry: http://p.zem.fi/pu9k -- that's one awfully bitchy interpreter. (Okay, so maybe my code isn't very well-behaving either.) < 1284416031 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, just remember that can go *across* expressions in a function. < 1284416034 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a pony. < 1284416035 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We get oerjan's soul and put it into a computer. < 1284416043 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and with inlining, if you decide to do that, across functions < 1284416051 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: show your code? < 1284416055 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: also what cleverness remains tends to be overwhelmed by my laziness < 1284416068 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yeah, except GHC doesn't regularly GC a 1 TB object space. < 1284416078 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Of course, the whole point is to rabidly AVOID doing that in our case. < 1284416114 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Phantom_Hoover: less so than i used to be <--- hm? Is it not the usual case of learning enough to know how little you actually know? < 1284416143 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's called forgetfulness and age. < 1284416145 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : pikhq: Incremental, parallel-with-code, generational, concurrent (i.e. multithreaded), non-resource-heavy GC of wisdom and happiness and fluffy pink rainbow unicorn kittens. <-- and without special hardware support? < 1284416147 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrrm < 1284416148 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: But then you'd steal my points! Well, okay, http://p.zem.fi/frac7 < 1284416154 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well, your soul will have to be electrocuted regularly. < 1284416165 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You may rest between GC passes. < 1284416177 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love how "aptitude upgrade" is deprecated for "safe-upgrade". < 1284416183 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*"aptitude safe-upgrade". < 1284416194 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, there is an obvious way to do a completely concurrent GC. < 1284416199 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Who said anything about "without special hardware support"? < 1284416211 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Without special hardware support. < 1284416213 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There will be a PCIe garbage collector. < 1284416214 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1284416214 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Said. < 1284416221 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psht, put the GC in the cpu < 1284416225 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, that's just what a sane lisp machine would do < 1284416226 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never mind me < 1284416228 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the gcd in frac7, though: begin ?dup while tuck mod repeat, and that's all. < 1284416237 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Is that a full gcd? < 1284416242 0 :Mathnerd314!~mathnerd3@dsl.6.28.53.206.cos.dyn.pcisys.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1284416249 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Putting it on PCIe is as close as you can get without actually modifying hardware design. < 1284416250 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, Do what NILFS does (or whatever it is called) but for the heap < 1284416251 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's Euclid's algorithm, a b -> gcd(a, b). < 1284416254 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Right. < 1284416257 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Pretty nice. < 1284416285 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Although Chuck hates you for using tuck, I bet. < 1284416289 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as it *could* then have access to the entire heap) < 1284416294 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does my gforth freeze on "see X"? < 1284416298 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It outputs "Code x" then hangs. < 1284416298 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that is, make your memory a circular buffer. You can go behind and clean stuff up. Obviously you can't reference what is unreachable at any one point < 1284416300 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1284416300 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do I need gdb or what? < 1284416301 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1284416303 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, better idea < 1284416306 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I have gdb. < 1284416309 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And objdump. < 1284416317 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, snapshot based GC < 1284416330 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, let's just copy the entirety of your hard disk < 1284416334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :great idea < 1284416338 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"To memory!" < 1284416340 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even better! < 1284416341 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no < 1284416344 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :copy on write < 1284416346 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously < 1284416351 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just fork()-gc < 1284416354 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that way the GC will get a consistent picture of the state < 1284416354 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which has some flaw that i've forgotten < 1284416357 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: what was the flaw again? < 1284416380 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this assumes single assignment of course < 1284416394 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you are able to modify the state it gets a lot more tricky < 1284416411 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I don't know, but I get raw binary garbage out of something like "see catch", which is pretty ugly too. < 1284416439 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we are back to the not quite as awesome rotated log < 1284416441 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no #gforth, grumble < 1284416452 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1284416462 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which of course gives you natural versioning < 1284416471 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of absolutely everything < 1284416483 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish the integration stuff for Chrome was less rubbish. < 1284416490 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1284416492 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The scrollbars extension especially.) < 1284416571 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, the scrollbars. < 1284416576 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/1156763 < 1284416578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: there is an extension to fix them < 1284416579 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously? < 1284416587 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it doesn't work on https:// and text/plain it seems < 1284416598 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION whacks Python with a kite
< 1284416642 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey_: that's because it's < 1284416643 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :errors = ... < 1284416645 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what you need to do is < 1284416650 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :errors = [[]] < 1284416655 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :errors[0] += 'boo' < 1284416657 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, i am not kidding. < 1284416659 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey_: if you can, please kill Python completely < 1284416665 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think there's a nicer way to do this < 1284416667 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i forget what < 1284416674 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the nicer way is to write it in lua < 1284416679 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :django does not make that an option, sadly < 1284416689 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: make it a class, for instance < 1284416706 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :class r(object): def __init__(self): self.errors = []; def __call__(self): self.errors += 'boo' < 1284416733 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you... weren't kidding < 1284416753 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION backs away from the computer
< 1284416772 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any language that works like that, i don't trust < 1284416779 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1284416793 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i will (sigh) make it a class (sigh) < 1284416812 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : http://pastie.org/1156763 <-- call c before defining it. Solves the issue. Of course now you have another problem to solve. < 1284416826 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still boggling at the errors[0] thing working though < 1284416847 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey_, I don't see the issue with that code. Nor do I see why errors[0] would work < 1284416910 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: 'x += y' is 'x = x + y' < 1284416920 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :python has no variable declaration indicator < 1284416927 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so all new assignments in a scope declare a new variable < 1284416938 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than referring to the upper function -- because python doesn't really have closures per se < 1284416949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo[0] = ... works because that's not a variable < 1284416956 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it depends on foo existing < 1284416958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it looks for a foo < 1284416960 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finds it from the upper scop < 1284416962 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*scope < 1284416963 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and voila! < 1284416968 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey_: in python 3 i think you can do < 1284416969 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nonlocal foo < 1284416971 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo += ... < 1284416971 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually I did this: upvalue={'errors':[]} < 1284416976 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno if it works in 2.7 < 1284416978 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can try it < 1284416981 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : foo[0] = ... works because that's not a variable <-- ugh < 1284416983 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's obviously the simple way to do it < 1284416983 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er in 2.6 < 1284417051 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if I read it before I assign to it? < 1284417059 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's easier to explain in a comment < 1284417064 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want to use python and you don't need compatibility, just use python 3. < 1284417070 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: what Chrome can look like on Ubuntu: http://news.softpedia.com/images/news2/Ubuntu-10-04-Radiance-and-Ambiance-Themes-for-Google-Chrome-2.jpg < 1284417075 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so anyway, any further ideas on the GC? < 1284417077 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: so, native < 1284417083 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: but it doesn't do the scrollbars on text files and https:// < 1284417084 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sigh* < 1284417086 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :text/plain, that is < 1284417089 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: not right now < 1284417089 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: So very almost native. < 1284417097 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : if you want to use python and you don't need compatibility, just use python 3. ;; the only reason to use Python is libraries < 1284417098 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. compatibility < 1284417101 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, how do the scrollbars usually look < 1284417105 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: different. < 1284417115 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, good point. Don't know how many libraries are translated yet < 1284417122 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not many at all < 1284417128 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1284417137 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, due to compatibility right? XD < 1284417137 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Aero scrollbars. < 1284417143 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: no < 1284417145 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, doesn't mean anything to me < 1284417147 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: http://i1-news.softpedia-static.com/images/extra/LINUX/large/chrome-stable-02_large.jpg < 1284417152 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :default chrome scrollbars on linux < 1284417155 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except they have ends now, whatever < 1284417168 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it don't. rotten little language, eh wot < 1284417173 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah well < 1284417174 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, the integration is perfect with the extensions, just not on https:// and text/plain (and presumably... images?) < 1284417180 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, somewhat close to Aero. < 1284417181 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, look normal apart from missing arrows at end? < 1284417186 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Aero is the Vista theme. < 1284417186 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: try "nonlocal x" < 1284417192 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: no, those aren't normal gtk scrollbars. < 1284417208 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see http://news.softpedia.com/images/news2/Ubuntu-10-04-Radiance-and-Ambiance-Themes-for-Google-Chrome-2.jpg for what it should look like with that gtk theme < 1284417209 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, my total time using vista is about 20 minutes. < 1284417214 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. very different < 1284417215 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, over a year ago < 1284417243 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, okay they look like clearlooks ones though! < 1284417255 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I see. It's using the Android widgets. < 1284417266 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: it is? haha < 1284417300 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, if those turn blue with the window is in the fg it matches clearlooks apart from missing arrow buttons < 1284417303 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Because it's bloody hard to get GTK to work in the way that Chrome wants it to. < 1284417304 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: no < 1284417307 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they stay like that < 1284417312 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ah, that is strange < 1284417316 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yeah chrome is a bit perverse :) < 1284417318 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: it works well on windows < 1284417325 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the linux port evidently gave them headaches < 1284417339 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a damn fast browser though and the actual ui is nice, so < 1284417360 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, it looks incredibly non-native on Windows too! < 1284417361 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd imagine they just used a *lot* of things that only Win32 allows because Win32 is perverse like that. < 1284417365 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, at least on XP and in 7 < 1284417368 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haven't tried in vista < 1284417370 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: on XP, yes < 1284417371 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not on 7 < 1284417373 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not with Aero on < 1284417377 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with Aero on, it looks great < 1284417381 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: On Vista and 7 it uses/imitates the native theme. < 1284417381 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the tab bar is actually in the transparent title bar < 1284417391 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, aero off due to it being virtualbox with intel graphics on host < 1284417391 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: it requires Aero < 1284417396 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: well, precisely < 1284417400 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with Aero it looks fine < 1284417410 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/48/Chrome_windows.png < 1284417418 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where that title bar is the normal translucent aero one < 1284417419 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, of course I would like to argue aero doesn't look fine .P < 1284417422 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P* < 1284417428 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: well, it looks "right" for the rest of the environment. < 1284417435 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, the scrollbars work on images < 1284417436 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, okay < 1284417440 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe the dev build makes it all work < 1284417452 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does! joy! < 1284417467 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It apparently also looks native on OS X. < 1284417482 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ehh < 1284417498 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks as native as anything that flagrantly violates the OS X conventions as much as it does can hope to < 1284417519 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.google.com/chrome/intl/en-GB/images/dlpage_mac.jpg < 1284417529 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bit weird what with the tab bar being pushed right to make way for the window buttons < 1284417532 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, looks native to me < 1284417541 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah < 1284417547 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that bit is strange < 1284417556 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yeah, but OS X has more obeyed conventions than other OSes < 1284417561 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and doing that in the title bar is freaky shit :) < 1284417570 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Okay, well. As native as it can get without stopping saying "fuck you" to the OS X UI conventions. < 1284417571 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, *that* I agree on < 1284417577 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, for no good reason < 1284417606 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Well, it has a good reason in Chrome's UI design. < 1284417610 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just doesn't belong on OS X. < 1284417638 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, besides I never found slightly inhomogeneous UIs a problem. And the only OS X version I used to any non-trivial extent is Tiger. Which had a mess of different UIs < 1284417642 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Specifically, Chrome's UI design: "We use the browser so much and for so many varying things that they're basically hosts to applications; therefore, crap the idea of even having a browser. All it is is a bunch of tabbed windows with controls inside. < 1284417642 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for apple stuff < 1284417643 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :") < 1284417652 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It's not about the look, it's about the work. < 1284417658 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hm < 1284417679 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet you wouldn't like your keyboard layout depending on which program you use; or some menus being horizontal; or whatever. < 1284417689 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or buttons looking like links in some applications. < 1284417701 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hm < 1284417705 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that happens < 1284417705 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1284417718 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I can think of all of those in various X apps :P < 1284417744 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it shouldn't happen though :) < 1284417759 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it happens less and less in X these days. < 1284417763 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, no the thing that annoys me is "release button closes menu" so you need to *hold down* button to keep menu open < 1284417775 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What with X only having 2 UI toolkits... < 1284417786 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Ones that don't suck, that is. < 1284417787 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I was using some weird athena-widget app to program an AVR processor last week that worked like that < 1284417791 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fucking annoying < 1284417826 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, was at a lab at university < 1284417879 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : alise, no the thing that annoys me is "release button closes menu" so you need to *hold down* button to keep menu open ;; original Macintosh did that :) < 1284417880 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and that was over the parallel port too. (the programming). Haven't used that for years. < 1284417886 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :original macintosh had tiny menus, though < 1284417887 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I know original mac did it < 1284417908 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and this had huge menus. Like you had to select AVR model from one < 1284417912 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with sub menus for series < 1284417913 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ouch. < 1284417937 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and the sub menus opened when you moved halfway to the → that indicates the submenu < 1284417943 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lovely. < 1284417950 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, it was basically "worst UI I used the last 5 years" < 1284417960 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1284417979 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and the font was tiny. Didn't help that because of the parport requirement we had to use old computers. One with CRTs attached < 1284417988 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the new ones lacks it < 1284418002 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, at least changing from 60 Hz to 75 Hz helped somewhat < 1284418008 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with avoiding headache < 1284418163 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I googled the program name. It seems open source. But I think the version installed there might have been old. Can only find a screenshot for the windows version... Not the linux one. < 1284418164 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, legacy-free computers. Today I went to my supervisor's office (he's in the UK right now) to set his computer ready for a three-way Skype conference; he had taken his very custom ergo-keyboard and mouse with him, and left the university-supplied kbd+mouse there. Unfortunately both were PS/2, and in the meanwhile his workstation had been updated to legacy-free USB-only one. < 1284418194 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.lancos.com/img/ponydump.png is the windows one. Even there stuff like text size for the menus is off < 1284418219 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it was way worse in the linux version used there < 1284418303 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the bg was the classical athena dark grey < 1284418316 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is quite unusable with black text at small sizes on a blurry CRT < 1284418394 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Font selection from a "close when the mouse cursor wanders off" submenu thing is a "nice" UI feature too, especially on a system with hundreds of typefaces. I've seen that in multiple programs, I think. < 1284418459 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, *shudder* < 1284418475 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I don't think these closed like that, well submenus did but... < 1284418479 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: that seems very oldschool mac-ish to me < 1284418527 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh I forgot the linux version had missized labels and such < 1284418549 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION → sleep
< 1284418554 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, for bus timing calibration the Yes button was hidden under the "are you sure" question except for about 10 pixels < 1284418562 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the no button was completely invisible < 1284418570 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it no understand nonlocal. bah < 1284418588 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey_, switch to 3 < 1284418705 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey_, it also makes "print" a function. Rather than a statement < 1284418716 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is rather more sane too < 1284418777 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah, again I was reminded of the System.out.println statement. :p < 1284418805 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yeah well, that is for a non-scripting language. < 1284418815 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus it is not in the normal namespace < 1284418819 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1284418822 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(There was also a "System.in.read" "(" expr ")" syntax for expressions. < 1284418826 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, but echo in bash is not a part of the syntax < 1284418827 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: ... yeah great, I'll just close the ticket with "Won't Fix -- Python version not at 3" < 1284418841 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a normal command. A builtin yes, but also an external one < 1284418855 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey_, work around it then < 1284419041 0 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1284419108 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey_, is there any import from __future__ thing for the nonlocal thingy? < 1284419120 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1284419223 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, tough luck: http://psf.upfronthosting.co.za/roundup/tracker/issue8018 < 1284419230 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: swatted to death < 1284419233 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1284419234 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange url < 1284419238 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why did google give that < 1284419302 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://bugs.python.org/issue8018 < 1284419305 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that url works too < 1284419307 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and seem saner < 1284419333 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both are same ip though < 1284419339 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1284419451 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1284419506 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<Vorpal> and the bg was the classical athena dark grey < 1284419506 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<Vorpal> which is quite unusable with black text at small sizes on a blurry CRT < 1284419510 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you can set dpi you can set colour resources < 1284419536 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I didn't have root, and this was not modern ubuntu < 1284419548 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so I doubt I can set DPI < 1284419552 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure I could set resources < 1284419554 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is easy < 1284419560 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, didn't have time to do that during the lab < 1284419598 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: err < 1284419599 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you can set < 1284419600 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hz < 1284419601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1284419614 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hm that was possible with gnome monitor settings < 1284419621 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xrdb -merge < 1284419626 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, it was feisty though. Very old ubuntu version < 1284419627 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SomeRidiculousThing: white < 1284419631 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SomeRidiculousThingForeground: black < 1284419632 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever :P < 1284419635 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bit hard if you don't have time though < 1284419638 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*$ xrdb -merge < 1284419642 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, indeed I lacked the time < 1284419649 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, how old is feisty? < 1284419671 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.lancos.com/img/ponydump.png ;; is it really called PonyProg2000? <3 < 1284419678 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: just april 2007 < 1284419680 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that old < 1284419692 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1284419708 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now *Warty* is old; http://www.sizlopedia.com/wp-content/uploads/ubuntu-warthog.png. < 1284419714 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take a look at that brown, oh yeah. < 1284419721 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Industrial GTK theme indahouse. And the default GNOME foot, too! < 1284419739 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, it said feisty but the bg was as in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ubuntu-desktop-2-804-20080708.png < 1284419741 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very strange < 1284419749 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hoary Hedgehog then upgraded to Brown But With Clearlooks and a Fancy Background: http://www.sizlopedia.com/wp-content/uploads/ubuntu-hedgehog.png < 1284419820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :6.06 introduced the brown/orange look and all: http://www.sizlopedia.com/wp-content/uploads/ubuntu-drake.png < 1284419831 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And, uh, was probably the first release not to be rubbish.) < 1284419851 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Can you believe Ubuntu has only been going since 2004? < 1284419852 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, jaunty was a damn good ubuntu version < 1284419861 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yes I can. 2004 is a long time < 1284419869 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it was more surprising in 2007 or so :P < 1284419886 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9.04 was very good, yes < 1284419892 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gotta say though, I don't mind 10.04 apart from a few things < 1284419898 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, better than 9.10 and 10.04 IMO < 1284419903 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nahh < 1284419913 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, like 10 of wakeup / sec when idle rather than 50 < 1284419917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm so glad 11.04 will be called "Natty Narwhal" < 1284419920 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: hardware issues, ok < 1284419926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess < 1284419930 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since 10.04 very much optimised that stuff < 1284419933 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, regression in 2.6.31 and later < 1284419933 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially bootup < 1284419945 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so karmic has that issue too < 1284419953 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, for the series of CPU which I have < 1284419957 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my thinkpad < 1284419958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1284419963 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha ha sucks to be you :P < 1284419968 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(core 2 duo, P8xxx iirc) < 1284419973 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION dances around with his Toshiba
< 1284420025 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway if it was 7.04 why did it had this bg .... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ubuntu-desktop-2-804-20080708.png < 1284420028 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I checked the version < 1284420048 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone set it, perhaps < 1284420050 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or: witchcraft < 1284420052 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps < 1284420060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: maybe network thing < 1284420063 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a shared backgrounds directory? < 1284420066 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not < 1284420072 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I checked and saw no nfs though < 1284420080 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1284420083 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're paranoid to the max < 1284420089 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, no I'm curious :P < 1284420096 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, funny thing in ifconfig. The only ethernet was eth3 < 1284420101 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even ifconfig -a listed no other < 1284420115 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I find that rather strange < 1284420119 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no eth[0-2] < 1284420128 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it had 4 ethernet ports. < 1284420145 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, not that I saw, and I was connecting various stuff on the back < 1284420158 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and yeah ifconfig -a would list them < 1284420162 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even down ones < 1284420248 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : http://www.chromeexperiments.com/detail/balldroppings/ ;; THIS IS SO FUN < 1284420269 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, requires flash? < 1284420276 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't think so; maybe it does < 1284420280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't hear anything, then yes < 1284420289 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Welcome honored guest. I got the key you want! would you like onderves. of Yourself < 1284420289 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the balls bouncing (hee hee) creates beyootiful music based on your lines < 1284420293 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's quite hypnotic < 1284420295 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Temporarily allow http://www.youtube.com/v/G6IKsek8DKE (