00:00:22 <Vorpal> olsner, 100 kr hm. Tja, gör nog det.
00:00:55 <olsner> hur funkar det med kårhus och sånt? får man komma in på fester etc utan att vara medlem i kåren?
00:01:09 <Vorpal> olsner, jag går inte på festerna!
00:01:20 <Vorpal> olsner, jag bor två mil utanför stan
00:01:37 <olsner> fail, fail och fail :)
00:02:18 <alise> you know, i can just translate all of that
00:02:34 * pikhq no longer has long hair. Feels a bit odd.
00:02:39 <Vorpal> alise, fine. the reason I switched was because I have no clue wtf "kåravgiften" is in English
00:02:52 <alise> Vorpal: translates "student union fees" here
00:02:55 <alise> <Vorpal> [...] And our corps sucks.
00:03:00 <alise> <olsner> *our corps sucks :)
00:03:13 <alise> Google Translate: bad at translating foreign errors in language!
00:03:22 <alise> <olsner> jag skulle betala kåravgift tror jag -> <olsner> I would pay student union fees, I think
00:03:34 <alise> Vorpal: IT'S TOTALLY CORPS (says Google)
00:03:36 <alise> pikhq: Ugh fix it.
00:03:44 <alise> pikhq: Your neck is cold and your ears painfully exposed.
00:03:52 <alise> <Vorpal> Olsner, I read well the hell not linguistics: P
00:04:02 <Vorpal> olsner, oh "Uppdatering: PayEx har nu fått alla uppgifter från banken och kan därför i samarbete med Montania starta igång medlemssystemet i början på nästa vecka!"
00:04:06 <pikhq> alise: Bald spot + long hair = vomit
00:04:07 <Vorpal> I can't pay it yet it seems
00:04:15 <alise> <olsner> how it works with the student union building and stuff? you may enter at parties etc but to be a member of the Corps?
00:04:15 <alise> <Vorpal> Olsner, I'm not at the party!
00:04:15 <alise> <Vorpal> Olsner, I live two mil out of town
00:04:15 <alise> <Vorpal> And I am a teetotaler
00:04:15 <alise> <olsner> fail, fail and fail:)
00:04:30 <Gregor> <pikhq> alise: Bald spot + long hair = vomit // THIS WILL BE ME
00:04:48 <alise> cpressey: olsner actually said "fail".
00:04:57 <alise> Vorpal: close enough that i grokked the meaning enough to know you were being your usual boring self
00:04:58 <pikhq> Gregor: Yes, but you definitely give absolutely no credence to any other person's tastes in your personal apperance.
00:05:09 <Vorpal> cpressey, or rather, culture imperialism :P
00:05:11 <alise> Translation: <pikhq> Gregor: You're hideous.
00:05:12 <pikhq> To the point of having actually painful colors. :P
00:05:25 <Gregor> alise: That was my understanding.
00:05:37 <olsner> Vorpal: men det är lite coolt att vara nykterist ändå, jag brukar tänka mig att nykterister är det för att de har dolda ninjaskills som skulle vara alldeles för farliga om de släppte på hämningarna
00:05:44 <pikhq> alise: Actually, it's just that he manages to select precisely the wrong colors intentionally. It's kinda cool, though.
00:06:00 <olsner> "ninjaskills" - translate *that*!
00:06:02 <Vorpal> <pikhq> To the point of having actually painful colors. :P <-- I like Gregor doing it that way
00:06:15 <alise> so does going naked everywhere
00:06:22 <alise> olsner: "ninja skills"
00:06:26 <alise> THAT WAS DIFFICULT
00:06:32 <cpressey> Vorpal: indeed. bow down to our king
00:06:35 <pikhq> Instead of merely not caring about matching and stuff, he actually goes out and unmatches.
00:06:40 <cpressey> the king of the english language empire
00:06:52 <olsner> alise: OMG YOU CRACKED IT
00:06:59 <alise> Kuk-sugande jäveln tik skit fitta!
00:07:04 <alise> I LOVE GOOGLE TRANSLATE
00:07:06 <Vorpal> olsner, hm, men kom ihåg vem som kan köra hem efter festen!
00:07:57 <Vorpal> alise, tik? That is "female dog" but it is in no way an insult
00:08:06 <olsner> yep, bitch is 'bitch' in swedish, "tik" just means a female dog
00:08:13 <Vorpal> it would be rather incomprehensible as an insult
00:08:21 <Vorpal> olsner, bitch is not a Swedish word!
00:08:47 <olsner> it's used as a swedish word, thus it must be one
00:08:51 <alise> Enligt min åsikt i hermeneutik i alltihop har vi förlorat en känsla av eller riktning. En viss rening av bajs däck skall vara ordnade, så att vi kan automatisera vissa overaller bara.
00:09:17 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneutics
00:09:42 <Vorpal> alise, and why do you want to "automatisera vissa overaller bara"
00:10:01 <alise> That was "alls" :P
00:10:06 <alise> It was something like
00:10:06 <Vorpal> no it wasn't in Swedish
00:10:11 <Vorpal> it turned into "overalls"
00:10:35 <alise> In my opinion, with the hermeneutics of everything we have lost a sense or direction. A degree of [purification?] on the poop deck blah blah so we can aut...
00:10:37 <alise> basically it was nonsense
00:10:57 <alise> "icecream" -> "glass"
00:11:00 <alise> Google Translate \o/
00:11:04 <Vorpal> alise, yes what about it
00:11:09 <cpressey> oh, nonsense, i've heard of that
00:11:10 <Vorpal> for single words it works okay
00:11:11 <alise> wait, is it actually glass?
00:11:25 <Vorpal> alise, what else would it be?
00:11:31 <olsner> yep, glass is icecream, glas is glass
00:11:55 <cpressey> following that pattern, gla is iron
00:12:05 <Vorpal> cpressey, järn is iron
00:12:29 <Vorpal> <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneutics <-- tl;dr
00:12:39 <Vorpal> alise, glad is happy yes.
00:12:58 * cpressey itchin' for more extrapolatin'
00:12:58 <alise> i need a word starting "gla" that means some sort of person or being
00:13:01 <Vorpal> cpressey, as far as I know: nothing
00:13:27 <Vorpal> just do a concatenation of some sort
00:13:48 <Vorpal> I leave it as an exercise to the reader
00:13:54 <alise> google translate doesn't know how to do that.
00:14:21 <Vorpal> actually getting gla that way could be tricky
00:14:25 <alise> Vorpal: Glass glas glasyrer glasartade glad glasidioter.
00:14:44 <Vorpal> glasyrer <-- coating on pottery afaik
00:14:58 <alise> "Ice cream glass glazes glassy glad glass morons"
00:15:02 <alise> then concatenated the last two words
00:15:19 <Vorpal> meaning morons made of glass
00:15:39 <olsner> sounds nonsensical to me, but it's perfectly alright to make up your own words
00:15:41 <Vorpal> alise, at least that is how I would interpret it
00:16:08 <Vorpal> non-sensical and I just went with the default interpretation if none other is standard.
00:16:27 <Vorpal> olsner, I assume you end up with the same meaning as I did?
00:17:04 <alise> OH! Och spetsen ner ... fortfarande, härskaren av den och den är inte säker. Alltså: är inte säker på vad, varför, när, vilka eller hur, eller något annat ärende som gäller ärenden som händer med ärendet omkring honom. "Oavsett", sade han: helt fel. Som, ofokuserad, närmade sig kameran honom flyttade han snabbt så att den inte en skymt av honom ... och misslyckades, så var det.
00:17:28 <Vorpal> alise, not grammatically correct
00:17:33 <alise> Vorpal: what does it read as?
00:17:41 <alise> with in-head grammatical correction
00:17:44 <cpressey> oh, nonsense, i've heard of that
00:18:01 <Vorpal> "Overhead! and the tip down ... still"
00:18:08 -!- Gregor has set topic: Welcome to #esoteric, the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - #esoteric is not associated with the joke language Perl, for that language please visit www.perl.org or #perl - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
00:18:09 <olsner> cpressey: gladd would be the perfect participle of glädja (make happy)
00:18:22 <Vorpal> OH = overhead in Swedish, Åh = Oh
00:18:44 <cpressey> olsner: oh gosh, that doesn't make it easy. iron, happy, make happy...
00:18:46 <Vorpal> alise, can't be bothered to translate the rest
00:19:13 <cpressey> the next term in the series must be...: spontaneous combustion
00:19:23 <Vorpal> olsner, oh indeed it would. Not common really
00:19:37 <Vorpal> but that is about all I can think of
00:19:47 <Vorpal> and that is probably even more convoluted class
00:19:53 <Vorpal> than just perfect participle
00:20:15 <Vorpal> and I can't translate that
00:20:18 <olsner> preteritum, apparently
00:20:19 <alise> "Vad är det här jävla idiotiskt skitsnack?" kom rasande och såg buller of the Beast kapten - tredje division, fullt bepansrade, lastade hela tiden, primade med en detonator, du vet hur det är i dessa dagar. (Hur som helst, funderade han, att formulera mer skulle vara meningslös, skulle för sin publik inte förstår orden. Så fruktansvärt att behöva vara så krass ... men då han blev påmind om sin vrede, och den facklas. Hur som helst ...) Han iv
00:20:19 <alise> äg på sin nyfunna resa, han skulle gå till ...
00:20:45 <Vorpal> alise, nonsense after the second "
00:20:57 <alise> you mean the closing quote?
00:21:04 <alise> olsner: you interpret it
00:21:07 <alise> you're more forgiving
00:21:15 <Vorpal> alise, you need to do it shorter
00:21:55 <alise> google translate translates it back ... sort of okay :P
00:21:58 <Vorpal> "skulle för sin publik inte förstår orden" was rather fitting though
00:22:35 <alise> olsner: Vilken godhet-förbaskad fitta!
00:23:12 <Vorpal> alise, "goodness-damned" I think is the best backtranslation
00:23:17 <alise> Yeah, that's what I wrote.
00:23:21 -!- Sgeo has joined.
00:23:22 <alise> gosh-darned just translated as gosh-darned.
00:23:29 <alise> I assume gosh doesn't mean gosh.
00:23:51 <alise> Vorpal: is there an equivalent of an -ing suffix?
00:23:59 <Sgeo> A parens-less stack-based language that mixes prefix and postfix
00:24:04 <alise> and a -s suffix? (on verbs; make -> makes)
00:24:06 <Vorpal> alise, presens is generally used
00:24:12 <alise> Vorpal: "FOOpresens"?
00:24:16 <alise> Also, aww, what do I do in that case?
00:24:18 <olsner> gosh would be jösses, I think
00:24:21 <Vorpal> alise, no as in the presens form
00:24:23 <Sgeo> I just want to give some examples right now
00:24:30 <Vorpal> like "read" rather than "reading"
00:24:46 <alise> but is there a way around it?
00:24:52 <alise> it's for a good cause!
00:24:57 <Vorpal> alise, we have a sort of -ing form but... it is rarely used, a subset of the English cases.
00:25:07 <alise> I'm trying to translate "Verbing weirds language."
00:25:15 <Vorpal> well. could be in stats
00:25:21 <olsner> verbande konstigar språk
00:25:33 <oerjan> alise: that's not the same -ing as for progressive
00:25:40 <Sgeo> These all print 10:
00:25:44 <Vorpal> is not -s as in third person
00:26:01 <Sgeo> This does not print 10:
00:26:02 <alise> Vorpal: the-act-of-verbing makes-weird language
00:26:14 <alise> except makes-weird must be expressed as "[weird as adjective][-s]"
00:26:24 <Vorpal> alise, "verbande konstifierar språk"
00:26:26 <oerjan> alise: i vaguely recall the norwegian translation from my old Tommy & Tigern magazines was "Verbing sprøer språket"
00:26:35 <olsner> I still vote for verbande, but makes-weird is hard to find a good word for I think
00:26:36 <Sgeo> + . 5 5 does NOT print 10
00:26:36 <Vorpal> olsner, what do you think about that one?
00:26:52 <alise> well it has to be [weird][suffix]
00:26:55 <alise> rather than using the proper form
00:26:57 <olsner> weirdifies ... could be worse
00:27:06 <alise> olsner: Vem är du som säger att det finns ingenting som du kan säga som inte redan sagts av en annan?! AAAAAAAAAA
00:27:11 <alise> oerjan: Tommy & Tigern xD
00:27:19 <Sgeo> Am I the only person on topic?
00:27:20 <Vorpal> alise, why can't it be the proper form
00:27:32 <alise> Vorpal: because that removes the humour
00:27:33 <oerjan> alise: basically for _that_ meaning norwegian uses -ing, and i suspect swedish as well
00:27:38 <olsner> Sgeo: we're on topic! it's just that our topic is different from yours
00:27:41 <alise> Vorpal: http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/.a/6a00df351e888f88340115706740f4970b-800wi
00:27:46 <Vorpal> alise, not sure it can be translated to Swedish
00:27:56 <oerjan> alise: english conflated the two meanings in its history, it used to have -ind vs. -ing iirc
00:27:58 <olsner> hmm, skulle vara verbning isåfall
00:27:59 <alise> Sgeo: bibbles means nothing
00:28:02 <Sgeo> Maybe I should write up a spec and ask for opinions
00:28:49 <Vorpal> <oerjan> alise: basically for _that_ meaning norwegian uses -ing, and i suspect swedish as well <-- which meaning?
00:28:52 <alise> olsner: Vorpal: Han härmade hans enda telefon över nedskärningen. Detta, då, var hans fostret.
00:29:10 <Vorpal> alise, s/hans/sin/ perhaps?
00:29:13 <alise> bah it translated fetus->baby
00:29:20 <alise> Vorpal: it's "He aped his only telephone at the cut. This, then, was his fetus."
00:29:25 <Vorpal> alise, no fostret = fetus
00:29:32 <Vorpal> it was the backtranslation that failed
00:29:36 <alise> google makes it baby the other way around
00:29:40 <alise> what would hans->sin do
00:29:50 <alise> google gives same backtranslation
00:30:00 <Vorpal> alise, no... nedskärningen = cut in the sense of "govt cuts funds for ..."
00:30:11 <Vorpal> alise, not in the sense of cut a cable
00:30:43 <Vorpal> alise, anyway the first hans should be "sin"
00:31:00 <Vorpal> alise, and I can't explain it. You use the same word in English
00:31:05 <Vorpal> it just sounds wrong in Swedish
00:31:17 <Vorpal> like pointing to the wrong "his"
00:31:21 <oerjan> Vorpal: the noun-making meaning of english -ing, as opposed to the participle-making one
00:31:22 <Vorpal> like in a previous sentence
00:31:45 <Vorpal> oerjan, hm. bråkning (flaxen preparation process iirc?)
00:32:00 <alise> "---!!!! Den hop arga anhängare av post-term aborter närmar! Jag kan inte --" var hans sista ord! Glädjas glädjas glädjas! ÅH! Åh lyckligaste dag! Varför? Varför? Nej varför: bara lycklig. Lycklig Lycklig Lycklig! Glädjas glädjas glädjas!
00:32:13 <olsner> Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflexive_pronoun
00:32:23 <oerjan> Vorpal: norwegian is less consistent about whether to insert an -n- in between (there are semantic differences too iirc)
00:32:43 <Vorpal> olsner, can you explain the hans/sin difference there to alise
00:32:47 <alise> "---!!!! Pöbeln av arga supportrar efter sikt aborter närmar! Jag kan inte --" var hans sista ord! Glädjas glädjas glädjas! ÅH! Åh lyckligaste dag! Varför? Varför? Nej varför: bara lycklig. Lycklig Lycklig Lycklig! Glädjas glädjas glädjas!
00:32:51 <alise> may be a better translation
00:33:05 <oerjan> Vorpal: e.g. bygging vs. bygning (the act of building vs. the result)
00:33:18 <Vorpal> oerjan, we don't have the first
00:33:29 <Vorpal> oerjan, the latter would mean, something
00:33:33 <alise> [["---!!!! Den hop arga anhängare av post-term aborter närmar! Jag kan inte --" var hans sista ord! Glädjas glädjas glädjas! ÅH! Åh lyckligaste dag! Varför? Varför? Nej varför: bara lycklig. Lycklig Lycklig Lycklig! Glädjas glädjas glädjas!]] backtranslates better
00:33:36 <alise> not sure that means much, though
00:33:39 <Vorpal> oerjan, the result would be "byggnad" (building)
00:34:06 <oerjan> Vorpal: we have -nad too but not for that verb
00:34:32 <alise> pikhq: 黒人の有権者は常に同じです。
00:34:56 <alise> "Negro voters always have the same it."
00:36:27 <olsner> about hans/sin: if we take "tom gave peter his book" and replace the 'his' with 'hans' then it must refer to peter's book, but if you use 'sin' then it would be tom's book instead
00:36:38 <oerjan> alise: "sin" is the possessive pronoun used to refer back to the subject of the sentence, "hans" is used to refer to other males
00:36:51 <oerjan> (sin = reflexive possessive pronoun)
00:36:57 <olsner> oerjan's explanation is much more specific :)
00:36:58 <alise> having a word for subject vs. generic-person-mentioned is good
00:37:39 <Sgeo> I suppose just writing out a spec in here isn't that great an idea
00:37:47 -!- fungot has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
00:37:49 <alise> Sgeo: use a text file
00:38:34 <alise> THE OFFICIAL TINY FONT COMPETITION IS NOW OVER
00:38:35 <olsner> alise: "den arga hopen", and you need a better translation of post-term abortion
00:38:42 <alise> Design a font smaller than 4x8. You get prizes.
00:38:49 <alise> (4x8 is Already Done: http://gnu.ethz.ch/linuks.mine.nu/atari/)
00:39:07 <Sgeo> Trying to clean out some gunk on my " key, and I'm not bothering to get a paperclip
00:39:12 <oerjan> alise: it only applies if the subject is in the 3rd person btw. i recall in czech své applies even with other persons
00:39:19 <alise> Sgeo: ' key, surely
00:39:24 <alise> oh, unless you have shift+' = "
00:40:16 <Sgeo> The key isn't reattaching
00:40:37 <Sgeo> There we go. ''''''''''''
00:40:43 <Sgeo> Now it's sunk in
00:41:00 <Sgeo> Now it feels weak
00:41:06 <Sgeo> '''''''''''''''''//]
00:41:38 <olsner> and, "glädjas" is probably the wrong translation there, you can't use it for exclamations of joy
00:42:12 <olsner> alise: hmm, and "nej varför ..." comes from something like "Not why: just happy"?
00:42:24 -!- comex_ has changed nick to comex.
00:42:39 <oerjan> alise: btw -s in english ~ -r in scandinavian languages, for both present of verbs and plural of nouns. i think they were confused by the fact that in english verbs in means 3rd person singular + present, while in scandinavian languages it means all persons
00:42:59 <alise> olsner: yes (to that last one)
00:43:19 <Sgeo> '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''['[''''''';;;'''''''''l/.;[;;;''///////l;'';;';;;;p;;;;;;;;;;;;'';''';''''';;;;;'''''''''''[[['''/?{//'[;]----.;ppp/p[/;'mkk'';'m';''''''''''''
00:43:39 <Sgeo> ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''/'[[[[[[[[[[[[[[['['''''''''''
00:44:22 <oerjan> the attack of the keyboard gunk
00:44:43 <Sgeo> '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
00:44:59 <olsner> alise: nej is no, not not
00:45:03 <olsner> (alltså ska det vara inte, inte nej)
00:45:05 <cpressey> Sgeo: I think I had that thought once
00:45:15 <cpressey> the RPN/FPN one, not the bibbles or the gunk ones
00:45:30 <cpressey> if i did, i never did anything with it
00:45:31 <alise> you can easily do it with negotiation
00:46:01 <olsner> hmm, but "no why: just joy" would be "inget varför: bara glädje"
00:46:22 <cpressey> i hope some of these show up in peoples' quit messages
00:46:33 <alise> evaluate all expressions in a function call. get all their types. find one that's a function type. look up in the function's record what types it accepts and outputs. continue for all the functions. pick the one that most precisely matches (subclasses match better than superclasses, etc., optional arguments match worse than non-optional arguments), and call it with the others in the relevant positions.
00:46:37 <alise> this allows totally free word order
00:46:57 <alise> assuming 'x' is a character and "x" is a string,
00:47:09 <oerjan> totally free world order
00:47:56 <oerjan> cpressey: spoilsport :D
00:48:14 <Sgeo> My idea allows infix too
00:48:22 <cpressey> oerjan: invent associative subtraction already!
00:48:27 <oerjan> now we just lack circumfix
00:48:39 <alise> so absically it's like mine but not as cool
00:48:45 <alise> cpressey: the order you specify would take precedence in such matters
00:48:53 <alise> because it can't negotiate the two; so it uses the source order
00:49:03 <oerjan> cpressey: *commutative (although you want associative too, with more arguments)
00:49:07 <alise> Pluvo does something similar to this.
00:49:09 <Sgeo> The plastic on this key has been mashed
00:49:16 <alise> commutative subtraction is just |x-y|
00:49:21 <alise> associative is difficult
00:49:41 <Sgeo> I have permanently damaged my ' key :(
00:50:37 <alise> somebody ask me what Pluvo is
00:51:18 <alise> Pluvo is http://inamidst.com/pluvo/, anyway.
00:51:53 <Sgeo> My ' key is now liable to fall off randomly
00:51:59 <cpressey> oh god not another programming language
00:52:14 <alise> hey andrew cooke commented on it cool
00:52:16 <alise> (first comment on http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/1598)
00:52:22 <alise> pluvo is just an experimentally thing anyway
00:52:34 <oerjan> Sgeo: so basically it is now a catastrophe key?
00:52:49 <alise> http://inamidst.com/pluvo/doc/guide coordination stuff
00:53:17 <Sgeo> Maybe I can use superglue
00:54:44 * Sgeo should make a '" free language
00:54:55 <cpressey> my experimental language will be a great and superior language in the future when it gets out of the experimental stage
00:55:25 <oerjan> the ultimate in vapor-based computing
00:55:27 * Sgeo ponders ways to make . 5 5 + work
00:55:59 <alise> anyway that's my joke-idea from a few days ago
00:56:11 <alise> <Sgeo> Maybe I can use superglue ;; on a keyboard? uh, no.
00:56:22 <alise> putting scissor-switch keys back on is a bitch
00:56:28 <alise> Sgeo: ha ha sucks to be you
00:56:30 <alise> try and fit it in again
00:56:33 <alise> it's possible but... barely
00:56:40 <Sgeo> The plastic key is BROKEN
00:56:40 <alise> oerjan: PN/RPN mixing
00:56:44 <Sgeo> It won't stay on
00:56:46 <alise> Sgeo: then yeah, a tiny amount of superglue
00:56:53 <alise> it's in two pieces?
00:57:05 <Sgeo> But the ... thingy that holds it in place is chipped
00:57:24 <Sgeo> Before I realized what it was for, I chipped it further, thinking that it wouldn't go on because its deformity blocked it
00:58:09 <cpressey> uhhh... i wonder, does it make any sense to intern bigints?
00:58:14 <Sgeo> I seem to have misplaced the actual key, minutes after my dad told me not to lose it
00:59:23 <cpressey> if i say 'problem' there is a good chance i will say 'problem' again sometime. if i say 3,617,217,282...
00:59:59 <cpressey> well it depends right? but, yeah, no.
01:00:15 <olsner> why not just intern *everything*?
01:00:41 <cpressey> olsner: optimal sharing hash consing!
01:01:27 <olsner> yes! whatever that is!
01:01:51 <olsner> well, what is "optimal" sharing? isn't everything always shared if you're hash-consing?
01:02:08 <cpressey> optimal sharing = hash consing, i was being sloppy
01:02:28 <cpressey> unless there's some really really technical difference i'm not aware of
01:05:35 <olsner> I should really build a language with hash-consing some day
01:07:59 <olsner> not lisp-like though, more like a simplified haskell with at least some of the nice type-system features and basic polymorphism
01:08:50 <cpressey> idea before i forget: a language with dynamic "aspect-oriented" self-weaving of some kind, like we can eval a routine as a string and it can insert code around everywhere some pattern matches in the rest of the program
01:09:41 <cpressey> this could be seen as a generalization of "dynamic come from"
01:15:57 <cpressey> olsner: you should do that. and you should name it "Jonguilexiphonaugh"
01:16:10 <cpressey> and if you don't want to use that name... may I?
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01:22:03 <Sgeo> And I must scream
01:22:11 <Sgeo> I can't find my dang ' key
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01:22:49 <Sgeo> So much for using any language other than Underload or Brainfuck
01:24:22 <Sgeo> It was on the table...
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01:28:22 * Sgeo imagines stacks and substacks
01:29:17 <Sgeo> So far, prefix notation can be used from within postfix notation, but not visa versa
01:29:22 * Sgeo wants the visa versa
01:31:52 <Sgeo> It does allow for a comfortable infix notation, at least
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01:37:40 <oerjan> cpressey: i point you to /// which basically does _nothing_ but the two things you mention ;D
01:38:11 <oerjan> (that doesn't mean it's anything like what you meant)
01:38:16 <Sgeo> So far, easiest explanation of my thoughts:
01:38:28 <Sgeo> Normally, it's postfix
01:38:40 <Sgeo> But when there's stack underflow, it goes into a prefix-like mode
01:38:55 <Sgeo> Where the starved word waits for things to fill the stack before executing
01:38:59 <oerjan> <Sgeo> So much for using any language other than Underload or Brainfuck <-- also unlambda :)
01:39:11 <Sgeo> 1 + is an underflow, thus, it waits
01:39:17 <Sgeo> Then 1 fills what + needed
01:39:24 <Sgeo> + is an underflow
01:40:56 <Sgeo> So 1 + 1 and 1 1 + do the same thing
01:41:10 <Sgeo> And 1 1 + is not a stack underflow
01:42:45 <Sgeo> Maybe , could tell the next word that there's nothing on the stack
01:42:55 <Sgeo> To force prefix notation
01:45:19 <Sgeo> And ' causes the next single stack push to not count towards fulfilling an underflow until a word executes that causes the substack to have 1 element again
01:45:35 <Sgeo> So this would be valid:
01:46:06 <Sgeo> That leaves a 4 on the stack
01:47:11 <Sgeo> ' is "The next word does not satisfy the condition needed to fulfil..."
01:49:49 <cpressey> btw, it's not possible to find that page on esolangs.org by searching
01:50:57 * Sgeo seriously has homework he needs to do :/
01:51:02 <Sgeo> Might need to boot into ubunto
01:51:18 <oerjan> (Slashes in case you didn't find it at all)
01:51:43 <cpressey> i did, eventually, by browsing.
01:51:51 <cpressey> self-modifying string-rewriting system, is what that is
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01:53:34 <Sgeo> No thoughts on my thoughts?
01:56:20 <cpressey> given your lack of a ' key, why did you choose ' as a language element?
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01:58:50 <Sgeo> As the opposite of ,
01:59:04 <cpressey> my $debug = ($#ARGV >= 0 and $ARGV[0] =~ m/^-d([1-2]?)$/ and shift and ($1 || 1));
01:59:07 <Sgeo> I decided it's not worth letting my terminal keyboard issues interfere with the language
01:59:11 <cpressey> "You had me at 'and shift and'"
02:00:23 <cpressey> Sgeo: I wasn't aware you had a ,
02:01:35 <Sgeo> Actually, that , is unnecessary
02:01:46 <Sgeo> Since the second + is in a substack
02:02:02 <Sgeo> erm, also, it's wrong
02:02:45 <Sgeo> The , makes it such that the + doesn't see the two 1s on the stack
02:03:04 * Sgeo might just scrap , and '
02:04:44 <Sgeo> Maybe I should use combinators for those weirdities
02:04:53 <Sgeo> Although that would screw up the flow
02:05:26 <Sgeo> I should consider what happens if words pushed themselves onto the stack, or some such weirdity
02:05:40 <Sgeo> That might let me include postfix within prefix, by forcing reliance on correct types
02:05:51 <Sgeo> This is not a fleshed out idea yet, though
02:06:40 <cpressey> Sgeo: don't words already push themselves onto the stack?
02:07:02 <Sgeo> Not.. as such, no
02:07:18 * cpressey kind of wants to implement /// in C now
02:08:03 <cpressey> I keep wanting to write something in R
02:10:34 * Gregor dives in his R grant money.
02:14:31 <Sgeo> Would \ as a time travel word be too much
02:14:53 <Sgeo> As a "Hey wait, that last word wasn't meant to fulfil the underflow!"
02:15:27 <cpressey> R --slave --file=your_script.R
02:15:40 <Sgeo> Hmm, what happens then when one word potentially fulfills a bunch of underflows
02:15:42 <cpressey> yes, you have to specify 'slave', or R will spam your output with prompts and such
02:16:29 <cpressey> "The R Language Definition" does not appear to include the word "comment" anywhere in it
02:17:11 <cpressey> # they are the boring usual ones
02:19:11 <cpressey> Sgeo: how would that happen? maybe i'm not following closely enough
02:19:52 <Sgeo> That last one fulfills the second +
02:19:56 <Sgeo> Resulting in a 1
02:20:00 <Sgeo> Which fulfills the first +
02:20:15 <Sgeo> I don't think I elaborated on the substacks enough for it to be comprehensible
02:20:22 <oerjan> cpressey: R is in violation of the universal declaration of human rights!
02:20:49 <Sgeo> Wait, _why_ do I have substacks?
02:21:21 <oerjan> Sgeo: subconsciously introduced?
02:21:38 <Sgeo> I think I thought I needed them to be able to next prefix
02:21:43 <Sgeo> Now, I'm not sure
02:23:18 <Sgeo> For the terminally confused, I was reading + 1 + 1 1 as (+ 1 (+ 1 1))
02:23:49 <Sgeo> When probably (+ (1 + 1)) with an extra 1 makes more sense given what I've explained
02:27:36 <Sgeo> The language started in my mind initially as a stack-based parensless prefix, before I decided to make it mixfix
02:29:46 <cpressey> Sgeo: I guess it depends on whether operations which don't have enough values 'grab' values as soon as they can, or wait for there to be as many as they need
02:30:19 <Sgeo> What's the difference between those?
02:31:50 <cpressey> if you have + 1 * 2 3, is that (1+2)*3, or 1+(2*3) ?
02:32:34 <Sgeo> The latter, I think
02:32:37 <cpressey> if it's "eager" it's the latter, but if operators are "patient" it's the former
02:33:08 <Sgeo> There's a stack underflow at *
02:33:39 <cpressey> I assume both + and * "hang around" waiting for more values
02:33:58 <Sgeo> I may need to change some or all of this
02:34:09 <Sgeo> Because I really, really want to allow postfix within prefix
02:34:33 <Sgeo> Hmm, another interpretation might be + (1 * 2) 3
02:36:47 <Sgeo> Is there anything useful about that interpretation?
02:37:06 <Sgeo> It allows postfix in some circumstances...
02:37:28 <Sgeo> But the postfix can't be used to fulfil the last one that a prefix is waiting for
02:37:46 <Sgeo> Is there any way to next prefix in that interpretation?
02:37:48 <cpressey> postfix within prefix will take guts and sweat and days without food
02:38:01 <Sgeo> As far as I can see, not without something like ,
02:38:30 <Sgeo> I think we should try to avoid operators like that though
02:38:38 <cpressey> + 1 2 * 3 is very ambiguous that way
02:39:03 <Sgeo> How is that at all ambiguous?
02:39:14 <cpressey> you could nondeterministically parse every possible interpretation, and then pick one based on an optimality-theoretic tableau
02:39:15 <Sgeo> + 1 2 becomes 3, then 3 * 3
02:39:38 <cpressey> if you want postfix within prefix, as you said
02:40:36 <Gregor> Is 'ea' in creative a diaeresis? Sure it is, right?
02:40:40 <Gregor> Of course it is, I'm being silly.
02:44:42 <cpressey> it might even be a triaeresis or quadraeresis
02:44:59 <cpressey> when i say it slowly it sounds like there are a whole lot of different vowel sounds in there
02:45:46 <Gregor> There should be three, but it's a diaeresis since two form a diphthong.
02:46:17 <cpressey> i may just be imagining the eh
02:46:34 <Gregor> You're either imagining it or the 'ah', depending on your accent :P
02:48:21 <Gregor> I should just start using þorn ... I wonder if I could get enough people to stop using T-H þat þe momentum would actually change language. Probably not, technology would kill it.
02:48:34 <Sgeo> I guess for postfix in prefix, I'd need an operator
02:50:01 <Gregor> cpressey: Þat's not a capital þorn.
02:50:34 <Gregor> cpressey: Oh, unless you're advocating for two different letters for þe voiced and unvoiced form.
02:50:58 <Gregor> Þat's not how it worked in English by þe time þorn died. Eiþer way, you want ð, not þat.
02:51:27 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to TheAnnoyer.
02:54:01 <Gregor> Hm, maybe I could get myself to use boþ þorn and eþ ...
02:54:22 <Gregor> I þink ðat would be too tricky for Random Idiot X...
02:55:40 <cpressey> so this is where the taxpayers' R grant money is going, eh.
02:56:23 <oerjan> it concerns Random Idiots, and is therefore _clearly_ statistical
03:15:43 -!- TheAnnoyer has changed nick to Sgeo.
03:27:38 <cpressey> Apparently the Student's t-distribution and t-test were developed for the Guinness brewery (the guy wrote under the pen name "Student")
03:29:13 <oerjan> yeah the inventor of that cannot have been quite sober
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03:33:12 <Sgeo> It's a calamari!
03:33:19 * Sgeo is learning to survive without a ' key
03:35:20 <Sgeo> Because I broke mine after trying to put it back after cleaning out gunk in the hopes that it would work better
03:36:27 <calamari> if I unplug my keyboard and plug it back in, the layout changes to international and I can no longer type ' or "
03:37:08 <calamari> so then I have to go change the layout.. really annoying, but I suppose I could fix it if I really wanted so, since kde is open source
03:55:57 <HackEgo> 10|<oerjan> what, you mean that wasn't your real name? <Warrigal> Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that. 14|<reddit user "othermatt"> So what you're saying is that I shouldn't lick my iPhone but instead I should rub it on my eyes first and then lick my eyeballs? 42|<ais523> after all, what are DVD players for? 81|<apollo>
03:59:49 <Sgeo> I need substacks for decent nesting of prefix
04:10:20 <HackEgo> 132|<dtsund> For those who don't know: INTERCAL is basically the I Wanna Be The Guy of programming languages. Not useful for anything serious, but pretty funny when viewed from the outside. 139|<ais523> let's put that in the HackEgo quotes files, just to completely mystify anyone who looks back along them in the future
04:10:55 * Sgeo fails to be mystified
04:11:01 <HackEgo> 38|<Dylan> speaking of pants <Dylan> harry potter movie
04:11:07 <HackEgo> 138|<ais523> so a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.com might be self-relative, but a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com always means a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com.?
04:13:05 <HackEgo> 140|<fax> oklopol geez what are you doing here <oklokok> ...i don't know :< <oklokok> i actually ate until now, although i guess i also did other things...
04:13:32 <oerjan> ...i guess that last one was pretty mystifying
04:13:51 <Sgeo> We should grep the esologs
04:14:00 <Gregor> May not have come from #esoteric.
04:14:34 <Sgeo> True, but ais523 is not a Siner
04:14:35 <oerjan> impossible. all other channels are illusions!
04:15:28 <Sgeo> Surely the quote's been repeated in channel before, but I can't find it in logs
04:15:44 <Sgeo> Also, the quote itself is pretty mystifying
04:17:38 <oerjan> `addquote <Gregor> It's impossible to add fake quotes.
04:17:40 <HackEgo> 224|<Gregor> It's impossible to add fake quotes.
04:29:31 <Gregor> "Hey, I didn't add that!" "Sure you did, you said right there it's impossible to add fake quotes."
04:30:37 <oerjan> and who should know better than the bot's creator
04:36:20 <Sgeo> How important is sensible prefix-in-prefix?
04:38:11 <Sgeo> Ugh, I _still_ want postfix-in-prefix
04:38:33 <Sgeo> I can use types
04:38:36 <Sgeo> Let's say I have someword
04:38:42 <Sgeo> It accepts only a boolean
04:39:01 <Sgeo> someword 'A' capital?
04:39:13 <Sgeo> The 'A' does not satisfy someword's requirement
04:39:18 <Sgeo> But the capital? does
04:40:36 <Sgeo> Maybe an >unsat that makes whatever's on the stack into a special class of types that doesn't satisfy for these purposes
04:40:58 <Sgeo> How does satisfiability work with postfix, though?
04:49:21 <cpressey> make @ take a value and 'decorate' it to be unprefixsyntaxusablein
04:50:16 <cpressey> wants Sgeo @prefix @postfix in
04:50:51 <cpressey> @ is ugly, just off the top of my head. pick something prettier
04:51:08 <pikhq> Curious. I have been deemed "attractive".
04:51:42 <oerjan> gravitationally speaking, that just means fat
04:51:45 <coppro> pikhq: I have been deemed 'hot' before, which is odd
04:52:14 <pikhq> coppro: I'm merely finding it curious that a change in hair style produces such a result.
04:52:43 <Sgeo> I've been called 'hot', then almost immediately found out that that wasn't serious
04:53:09 <coppro> Sgeo: nope, was serious
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06:08:00 <pikhq> calamari: Rather short hair, instead of having the headbanger look going.
06:09:57 <pikhq> Too short to part.
06:14:34 <Sgeo> I got short hair recently, and my step-mother said it looked hideous
06:14:39 <Sgeo> Then again, it was soldier-short
06:14:46 <Sgeo> Also, I don't trust my step-mother
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06:16:22 <pikhq> Sgeo: Mine is, in fact, soldier-short.
06:16:32 <pikhq> I disbelieve in undramatic changes in appearance.
06:16:58 <Sgeo> I'm considering just taking advice from a female friend of mine who said she'd like to help
06:18:08 <pikhq> To solider-short from long-enough-to-hypothetically-braid.
06:18:22 <pikhq> About as dramatic as it gets with hair, really.
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06:51:21 <Vorpal> <olsner> hmm, but "no why: just joy" would be "inget varför: bara glädje" <--- really?
06:52:07 <Vorpal> <alise> this allows totally free word order <-- what about for exp(double, double) ? XD
06:55:14 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> Before I realized what it was for, I chipped it further, thinking that it wouldn't go on because its deformity blocked it <-- idiot
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08:52:57 <fizzie> Vorpal: Heh, the university shell servers keep getting more and more ridiculous; this one lists 24 cores in /proc/cpuinfo. (Though I think it's just a 2-cpu 6-core Xeon, with the 12→24 duplication because of HyperThreading.)
08:53:42 <fizzie> (Also seems to have an even hundred gigabytes of memory.)
08:55:16 <fizzie> (Or 96.5, apparently; I'm not quite sure where the .5 comes from.)
08:58:57 <olsner> oh, I would like me one of those
09:01:20 <fizzie> And that box is pretty much dedicated to run a few hundred (or maybe a thousand) irssi/alpine/mutt/etc. screens, nothing more.
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09:34:08 <olsner> dedicated to run 24 of your own gcc processes, you mean?
09:34:28 <olsner> or whatever cpu-intensive project you're up to :)
09:37:32 <fizzie> I think they have some sort of automation to catch people who do long-running CPU-intensive tasks.
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14:49:47 <cpressey_> "Tricky," he said. "But can you do it?" cried Loonquawl.
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15:15:15 <oklofok> oerjan: i need your peer reviewing skills
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16:07:28 <cpressey_> pshaw. if oerjan said it you'd lol
16:12:23 <Gregor> cpressey_: That's because we WURRRRRRRRVE the oerj (pronounced "werj")
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16:34:05 <cpressey_> Phantom_Hoover: he who is slowly becoming my nemesis it seems
16:34:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Damn, you can't make that dound appropriately dramatic.
16:34:58 <cpressey_> doesn't like where i live, underwhelmed by the languages i design, and now hissing at my oerjan-level punning just 'cos it'd not coming from oerjan himself
16:35:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Actually, when it comes round to hating things, my money's on alise.
16:36:40 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I know you're logreading this, so please don't take offence.
16:37:59 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey_: well, I always thought you and Gregor would end up at odds with each other.
16:38:19 <Phantom_Hoover> You both occupy the same quantum state in my head, and it's not big enough for the both of you.
16:40:38 <cpressey_> Phantom_Hoover: well, he's only my nemesis so far. i think it would take an alise or a zzo38 to be my *arch*-nemesis. :D
16:42:22 <cpressey_> Phantom_Hoover: you could be Q. Not the Star Trek one, the James Bond one. 'coz, you know, you have The Deevice. and that Deity Ray thing
16:42:41 <cpressey_> although Deevice looks kind of cool too
16:43:14 <cpressey_> Phantom_Hoover: I am not opposed to Lisp64 although I don't know if I'm in a state to help it
16:43:48 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey_: well, you just need to be able to make crazy engineering suggestions.
16:48:07 <Phantom_Hoover> FUN FACT: I have watched neither the classic James Bond films nor TNG,
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17:17:48 <alise> Vorpal: how many wakeups/sec do you get on ubuntu?
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17:23:45 <alise> 20:13:32 <oerjan> ...i guess that last one was pretty mystifying
17:25:26 <alise> 20:52:43 <Sgeo> I've been called 'hot', then almost immediately found out that that wasn't serious
17:25:32 <alise> i'm considered a rather cute female.
17:25:49 <alise> maybe if i cut my hair i can one day fulfil my dream of being just like pikhq
17:26:11 <alise> 22:52:07 <Vorpal> <alise> this allows totally free word order <-- what about for exp(double, double) ? XD
17:26:15 <alise> source order takes precedence, as i said
17:26:38 <alise> 22:55:14 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> Before I realized what it was for, I chipped it further, thinking that it wouldn't go on because its deformity blocked it <-- idiot
17:26:46 <alise> it is often a reasonable course of action.
17:27:26 <oklofok> i'm not going to comment on that, because i don't know what it's about, so it would be stupid
17:27:37 <oklofok> hello alise, what's a hello
17:28:30 <alise> a hello is a murder
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17:35:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Closer to CL than Scheme, but not CL for obvious reasons?
17:38:49 <Phantom_Hoover> But CL is *way* too huge and carries far too much baggage from lesser OSes to use for this.
17:39:14 <alise> Let's just make the perfect Lisp. k.
17:39:40 <cpressey_> Phantom_Hoover said I can make crazy engineering suggestions so I shall promote using Pixley
17:40:28 <cpressey_> oh wow, irssi in a cygwin bastardized dos window does not handle resizing and scrolling well
17:41:37 <cpressey_> Phantom_Hoover: to be slightly more serious, I would want a pure and reasonably small core, howevermuch wise that may or may not be
17:41:53 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> alise: yes, so what's in that perfect Lisp? ;; cool things
17:42:34 <cpressey_> as the only way to violate the pure
17:42:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, the behaviour of the compiler changes depending on the namespace.
17:42:48 <alise> cpressey_: mayyybe
17:44:48 <cpressey_> oh, ^L redraws. yes. good. sanity again
17:45:58 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: how does that fit with the current architecture?
17:47:21 <Phantom_Hoover> *Some* code will need to me impure, like device drivers etc.
17:47:48 <alise> I'm not getting all caught up about purity here. That's for alise OS.
17:47:58 <cpressey_> Phantom_Hoover: I read a paper once on "hardware access monads" and their use in an academic Haskell OS
17:48:51 <cpressey_> also, only expressing my opinion, which may or may not reflect those of Lisp864 and its sponsors.
17:49:13 <Gregor> Void where prohibited.
17:49:16 <cpressey_> actually, as long as i've got a way to statically analyze the code and tell me what's pure and what might not be, i'm good
17:52:00 <alise> Lisp86 is my vehicle to use Phantom_Hoover to create something like my perfect world-dominating vision in finite time!
17:52:04 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: so anyway, I think we can restrict the actual language primitives to a tiny set of direct memory access ones.
17:52:20 <alise> That's sort of like kind of exactly Forth.
17:54:23 <cpressey_> lambda, cons, car, cdr, at least, i assume?
17:54:46 <alise> I know! Leave all the design to me, Phantom_Hoover; you can code the x86-75
17:54:53 <alise> I know! Leave all the design to me, Phantom_Hoover; you can code the pages upon pages of x86-64 assembly.
17:54:56 <cpressey_> that's as "direct" as memory access classically gets in lispies, though i can see wanting to go lower
17:55:10 <alise> cpressey_: there will be some sort of service offering memory poking for drivers.
17:55:18 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: I thought assembly was going to be kept to a completely bare minimum.
17:55:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Except for all the runtime, the GC, the various OS facilities now part of the runtime...
17:56:01 <alise> (Not many facilities, admittedly.)
17:56:48 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: pages on pages of assembly are not something I am even vaguely good at.
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17:58:16 <alise> cpressey_ is good at assembly!
17:58:22 <alise> We can put Vorpal in an agony booth!
17:58:54 <cpressey_> cpressey_ is okay at assembly. hardly the best one here, i'm sure.
17:59:14 <cpressey_> also: i have never done anything remotely >286ish.
17:59:17 <alise> All the others are either in asylums or not stupid enough.
17:59:24 <alise> You will be assimilated.
17:59:37 <alise> Resistance is -- where did you go...?
18:00:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: You're the kidnapper in this crime ring!
18:00:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Fiine.
18:00:47 <alise> Now go kidnap cpressey.
18:00:57 <alise> But ... keep him away from a computer.
18:01:52 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey_, Vorpal, get plane tickets straight to Edinburgh. You'll only need one way. Failure to comply will be met with use of the Device.
18:02:26 * cpressey_ cleverly swaps places with Gregor somehow
18:03:04 <alise> It's okay, we can just poke Gregor with a rusty stick.
18:03:10 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Kidnap Gregor -- who is actually cpressey.
18:03:19 <Gregor> alise has discovered the nature of THE DEVICE
18:03:20 <alise> DO NOT poke "Gregor" (cpressey) with a rusty stick;
18:03:28 <alise> DO poke "cpressey" (Gregor) with a rusty stick.
18:03:37 <alise> The device is the RUSTIEST STICK.
18:03:43 <alise> Never before has bark been so rusty.
18:04:59 <alise> Gregor, cpressey_, into the plain.
18:05:04 <alise> Now they cannot resist.
18:06:21 <cpressey_> oh man, this is gonna be the best os EVER!
18:07:08 <alise> oh i said plain by mistake
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18:08:15 <Phantom_Hoover> So now that I have kidnapped some developy people can I help design?
18:08:52 <cpressey_> I would actually be willing to try coding some *small corner* of the OS if it is *well defined*. Which in practice means no.
18:09:35 <cpressey_> or it means you actually have to design shit instead of just playing around with cool ideas
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18:16:44 <alise> cpressey_: grumpy grumpy
18:17:35 <cpressey_> you would be too if you were just kidnapped! by use of the Device, no less
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18:20:44 * cpressey_ rewrites his traversal function a *third* time
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18:41:20 <alise> [[SAN FRANCISCO — In describing the motivation behind Intel's recent purchase of McAfee for a packed-out audience at the Intel Developer Forum, Intel's Paul Otellini framed it as an effort to move the way the company approaches security "from a known-bad model to a known-good model." Otellini went on to briefly describe the shift in a way that sounded innocuous enough--current A/V efforts focus on building up a library of known threats against which they
18:41:20 <alise> protect a user, but Intel would love to move to a world where only code from known and trusted parties runs on x86 systems. It sounds sensible enough, so what could be objectionable about that?]]
18:41:26 <alise> aren't they AWESOME!
18:41:29 <alise> best processors ever
18:41:44 <alise> i love how they eat up so much power and get so hot for the same performance, and I'm buying one now
18:43:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Tachyons are solutions to the SR equations that have imaginary mass, although I suppose they could have reverse causality.
18:43:50 <alise> they are usually assumed to
18:44:07 <alise> i mean, they move faster than light, which to Joe McLayman...
18:46:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Which is sqrt(1-v^2/c^2), so for velocities over c, the time dilation is imaginary.
18:46:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Having negative time dilation would seem to be impossible, actually.
18:47:22 <alise> "Pros: This CPU should be my last in this lifetime [I am 80 and expect this will be more than sufficient to get me into my 90's!] The amazing factor to me [apart from the speed] is how cool it runs on the stock Intel heatsink and fan; I have the fan set on low!"
18:47:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Although because of the FtL-implies-time-travel thing, you could probably still use them to violate causality.
18:47:32 <alise> -- Newegg review of Core i7-980X Extreme Edition
18:47:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: not tachyons
18:47:52 <alise> According to the contemporary and widely accepted understanding of the concept of a particle, tachyon particles are too unstable to be treated as existent.[4] By that theory, faster than light information transmission and causality violation with tachyons are impossible.
18:47:53 -!- alise has left (?).
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18:48:05 <Phantom_Hoover> <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, assuming no interaction with matter.
18:49:21 <alise> "Because the total energy must be real" PAH, UNNECESSARY
18:52:37 <pikhq> Firstpersondonewithtest VICTORY
18:54:36 <Vorpal> alise, Phantom_Hoover: whatever that highlight was about: tl;dr, and bbl for a few hours again
18:54:59 <alise> Vorpal: how many wakeups/sec do you get
19:02:12 <Vorpal> alise, .30, .31 or stock lucid? All on lucid. Varies widely between those
19:02:35 <alise> are the custom ones much better?
19:02:47 <Vorpal> alise, only because of less buggy with my hardware :P
19:03:05 <Vorpal> alise, .27 (stock) on *jaunty* I got less than 10. Even with .27 on lucid I get more. Like 15 per seconds.
19:03:13 <Vorpal> With stock above 50 / sec all the time
19:03:32 <Vorpal> .31 around 10-30, varies quite widely
19:03:37 <alise> how many should a non-insane person aim for?
19:03:47 <Vorpal> .30 around the same as .27 with lucid (15 or so)
19:04:19 <Vorpal> alise, well... hard to say. With lucid I don't think you can get to the levels of jaunty. Probably user space changes
19:04:33 <Vorpal> with stock: depends on if you have an intel core 2 duo
19:05:35 <Vorpal> alise, well depending on stepping you might hit the same bug I do. Which is that load balacing ticks sky rocket
19:05:45 <Vorpal> basically due to a race condition as far as I understand the bug
19:05:57 <Vorpal> where one core tries to sleep but wakes the other or something like that
19:06:27 <Vorpal> alise, which is why you get no lower than 50 / sec when idle. And average 100-140 / sec
19:07:30 <Vorpal> alise, .31 doesn't have that bug (karmic had .31 iirc?) but it is still somewhat worse than .27 of jaunty. Probably a combination of user space and other kernel stuff
19:07:39 <Vorpal> but at least not nearly as bad for battery time
19:08:19 <Vorpal> alise, anyway, something else that will save power is turning off bluetooth if not used. Same goes for wlan. With turning off I mean rfkill or whatever you need to make it stop using it's antenna and so on
19:09:23 <alise> I could just click "Turn Off Bluetooth".
19:09:48 <pikhq> Hey, HDCP is finally actually cracked now.
19:09:49 <Vorpal> alise, well yeah hopefully yes. But I heard about some laptops where that isn't enough. On my thinkpad the GUI ways work
19:09:55 <pikhq> Surprised it took this long.
19:10:21 <pikhq> A simple matter of watching the HDMI bus on 40 devices and solving a system of equations.
19:10:36 <Vorpal> pikhq, don't they realise that as long as they put the keys for encryption in *user accessible* hardware any DRM is futile in the long run?
19:10:52 <alise> I am attempting to disable Wi-Fi...
19:10:53 <pikhq> Vorpal: No, they don't.
19:10:54 <Vorpal> I mean, you don't have physical security, just attach a logic probe
19:11:08 <pikhq> Vorpal: And they also really, really suck at doing encryption anyways.
19:11:30 <Vorpal> unless you do it all in one IC... In which it can still be done, just significantly trickier than if you can tab between two ICs
19:11:36 <pikhq> Vorpal: HDMI had "encryption" with a *linear function*.
19:11:44 <pikhq> *Linear. Fucking. Function.*
19:12:00 <Vorpal> pikhq, that is only safe assuming a non-repeating key
19:12:06 <pikhq> Find 40 coefficients and all possible keys are yours.
19:12:08 <Vorpal> which is obviously not the case here
19:12:19 <Vorpal> pikhq, wait, this sounds worse than WEP?
19:12:28 <pikhq> Why yes, yes it is.
19:12:44 <Vorpal> alise, right click the network manager thingy
19:12:53 <Vorpal> the icon in the menu bar I mean
19:12:55 <alise> Vorpal: I mean in hardware.
19:13:10 <Vorpal> alise, ah well, for me doing it from there disables it the hw too
19:13:35 <Vorpal> alise, of course, it might not
19:13:53 <Vorpal> in which case you want /sys/something/something/rfkill/rfkill1/something
19:13:59 <Vorpal> well replace the 1 there
19:14:04 <Vorpal> with the relevant number
19:14:44 <Vorpal> alise, in worst case rmmod of the module ought to disable the wlan
19:15:16 <Vorpal> alise, if you don't know the name work backwards from mac*802 (whatever the numbers are)
19:15:28 <Vorpal> which your wlan module will depend on directly or indirectly
19:15:40 <Vorpal> alise, hm. Physical rfkill switch would I assume
19:15:54 <alise> i mean for wakeups
19:16:20 <Vorpal> alise, is hdaps running? (the daemon that uses the accelerometer to unload hd head)?
19:16:45 <Vorpal> alise, it causes lots of wakeups, and if you have it on a stable table you could probably turn it off.
19:16:55 <Vorpal> alise, err hdapsd I think
19:17:04 <alise> it's on a ... stable-ish table.
19:17:35 <Vorpal> alise, another thing that helps for me is unloading tg3 (ethernet module). Because networkmanager keeps polling it
19:17:54 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ pgrep hdapsd
19:17:57 <Vorpal> alise, well yes. I switch
19:18:33 <alise> 646 ? 00:00:00 bluetooth
19:18:33 <alise> 659 ? 00:00:00 bluetoothd
19:18:37 <Vorpal> alise, other than that, powertop gives you suggestions. Checking those might be worth the job
19:19:02 <alise> i'm always plugged in so this is just or my amusement
19:19:07 <alise> and in case i ever take it off power
19:19:17 <fizzie> HDCP's actual encryption is with a perfectly sane stream cipher, not a "linear function". They had a linear key exchange thing, which means you could figure out the master key from 40 device keys, and therefore circumvent the key revocation mechanism, which is I guess what has now been done.
19:19:34 <Vorpal> alise, I thought you previously wanted long battery life because you were mobile a lot?
19:20:10 <pikhq> fizzie: Ah, right, it was just the key setup that was retarded.
19:20:20 <Vorpal> alise, another thing that helps for reducing wakeups is usually suspend 2 ram ;P
19:20:30 <Vorpal> suspend 2 disk helps even more with power usage
19:21:02 <pikhq> Still, what sort of *moron* does linear key exchange?
19:21:20 <pikhq> Apparently the sort that tech companies hire for DRM.
19:21:30 <Vorpal> pikhq, I think I have an answer.
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19:22:13 <Vorpal> pikhq, the techies that design this hate DRM. But their managers want it. The managers are stupid and don't know enough about this stuff. Thus they can just insert poor DRM
19:22:31 <Vorpal> we should be happy that they aren't competent
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19:24:33 <alise> Vorpal: powertop shows one report then freezes my syste,m
19:24:37 <alise> not even reisub recoverable
19:24:54 <Vorpal> alise, I have it running as root on my thinkpad atm
19:25:11 <Vorpal> show72 / sec. But that is due to firefox running
19:25:15 <fizzie> I seem to recall I had one box too where powertop managed to hang things up badly. Not sure which one it was.
19:25:25 <Vorpal> hm empty firefox window gives you 40 wakeups / sec?
19:25:50 <alise> 08:36:40 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I know you're logreading this, so please don't take offence.
19:25:50 <alise> i just laughed at the idea of cpressey rabidly hating me :)
19:25:59 <Vorpal> killing of firefox: around 40 wakeups / s
19:26:09 <Vorpal> but network is not completely idle
19:26:19 <Vorpal> sshfs is mounted so some keepalive sent I assume
19:27:36 <Vorpal> alise, anyway, very strange that powertop issue. Was it possible to ssh in from another host? Did sysrq work?
19:28:18 <alise> i said reisub didn't work, and you really think i'm going to try the former?
19:29:00 <alise> "Oh, my machine has frozen. Thankfully, I have an ssh server running on my personal box, so I will just boot up the slow computer next to me and try to connect. Maybe after that, I will hard-reboot! But only after writing a journal article and three poems about it."
19:33:54 <Vorpal> <alise> i said reisub didn't work, and you really think i'm going to try the former? <-- um. I have done that
19:34:08 <fizzie> I always try the SSH thing, too, usually from the phone.
19:34:12 <Vorpal> and yes, in general I do have one running at home
19:34:33 <alise> fizzie: Even if the cause is /obvious/?
19:34:38 <Vorpal> don't run it on laptop at university.
19:34:39 <alise> Why? To salvage my... Chrome window?
19:35:18 <Vorpal> And even if I forgot it running it would still be secure (key auth only, no pw) and only listens to a specific ip on eth0 and iptables filter all IPs but my desktop
19:35:38 <Vorpal> alise, if it works, it would help tell what crashed
19:35:40 <fizzie> alise: Even if; doing the hard powercycling feels somehow dirty, I want to exhaust all possible remedies.
19:35:43 <Vorpal> like, maybe only X locked up
19:35:58 <alise> powertop is broken
19:36:04 <alise> i very much doubt it just crashed X
19:36:10 <alise> solution: don't run powertop
19:36:18 <Vorpal> alise, not broken for me
19:36:21 <alise> i have no reason to boot up the slow machine and ssh in (and go back in time and start sshd)
19:36:23 <alise> Vorpal: broken for me.
19:36:25 <Vorpal> alise, must be your hardware it doesn't like
19:37:55 <Vorpal> alise, hm I can think of a few ways that powertop could cause issues: 1) ACPI by reading C-state/P-state. 2) reading timer list. A way to test for this is to click battery icon in gnome, select first alternative. Then in the window that pops up select "processor" in the list on the side
19:38:05 <Vorpal> that checks the timer list that powertop uses for the main display
19:38:16 <Vorpal> alise, but it doesn'd do the c-state/p-state stuff
19:38:30 <Vorpal> alise, so if that doesn't crash you have limited possible causes
19:39:06 <alise> gnome power display thing works, so i guess it's not 2
19:39:18 <alise> (I knew this already)
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19:54:01 <Vorpal> alise, cpufreq-info works?
19:54:14 <Vorpal> not sure how to read C-states and P-states though
19:54:19 <Vorpal> for cpufreq-info run it as root
19:54:25 <Vorpal> otherwise it will not be quite the same
19:55:24 <Vorpal> $ sudo cpufreq-info | grep -i 'current CPU'
19:55:24 <Vorpal> current CPU frequency is 800 MHz (asserted by call to hardware).
19:55:27 <Vorpal> $ cpufreq-info | grep -i 'current CPU'
19:55:27 <Vorpal> current CPU frequency is 800 MHz.
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20:03:51 <Vorpal> hm TFTs are not really digital are they? How does it change intensity? Analog value sent to something or digital?
20:04:01 <Vorpal> I mean at the actual liquid crystal level or whatever
20:12:50 <Gregor> Apparently I use aptosid now ...
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20:17:44 <fizzie> How much light passes through one pixel depends, AFAIK, on applied voltage, so in that sense you could say it's an analog device.
20:17:54 <cpressey_> Phantom_Hoover: is Lisp86 allergic to C? I mean, the non-Lispy parts will be ugly anyway, right?
20:20:37 <Vorpal> <Gregor> Apparently I use aptosid now ... <-- aptosid?
20:20:53 <Gregor> Vorpal: sidux changed its name. In an overly dramatic way.
20:21:31 <cpressey_> I AM COLENOL APTOSID OF THE BLURGUX EMPIRE. SUBMIT.
20:21:46 <Gregor> Wow, the nick "Gregor" was still free on OFTC, now I have it on both Freenode AND OFTC ... sweet :P
20:25:11 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey_, I'm not really sure why using C is verboten, although ideally the OS won't actually have enough ultra-low-level code to *need* C.
20:27:16 <Gregor> "ultra-low-level" doesn't imply C ... well, it didn't before ~1977 anyway :P
20:35:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, yes, but the whole point is that non-ultra-low code is in Lisp.
20:39:49 <Gregor> I haven't actually been following this, but why do we like Lisp?
20:40:53 <Gregor> Lisp has the same fault as Forth: For all the beauty of the language design, programmers are human beings. People in #esoteric are not.
20:42:16 <cpressey_> By that logic, Formula One race cars are faulty.
20:42:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor is a heretic against the holy name of Lisp! KILL HIM!!
20:42:37 <Gregor> cpressey_: They are if you're going to give them to Random American X.
20:43:09 <cpressey_> Phantom_Hoover: are we going to give this OS to Random American X?
20:43:26 <Gregor> OK, so it's a /research/ OS. In that case, enjoy :P
20:43:42 <cpressey_> By that logic, Formula One cars are research vehicles.
20:43:50 <cpressey_> Which is true, in a sense, I suppose.
20:44:13 <Gregor> cpressey_: No, by that logic, both are special-purpose, and the special purpose I have chosen to imagine your OS is assigned to is research.
20:46:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, well, the fundamental Lispiness won't be exposed to Joe Bloggs.
20:46:49 <Gregor> OK, then enjoy; I sort of figured this was supposed to be "everything's Lisp from the ground up", since that's exactly what a Lisper would do X-P
20:47:24 <Gregor> By "from the ground up" I mean "to the shell and all apps"
20:47:28 <cpressey_> The discussion about using Lisp Hardware took place yesterday IIRC and came to the conclusion that it's not feasible.
20:51:45 <cpressey_> Phantom_Hoover: The reason I ask about GC is that it's clearly not *ultra* low level but it's also somewhat tricky to do in Lisp (you need to bootstrap it. in practice you would have an inital version written in something else.)
20:52:00 <cpressey_> And, like, do it in assembly? Maybe but ugh.
20:53:30 <cpressey_> Gregor: I think the most reasonable assumption about nigh all projects discussed in this channel is that they are for entertainment rather than production or research. That's one reason I chose the analogy I did with the race car. But maybe that's just me.
20:54:04 <Gregor> cpressey_: Yeah, I'm just being a jerk :P
20:54:13 <Gregor> cpressey_: Since alise was actually being compliant, I had to be the jerk.
20:56:21 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey_, yeah this is why we're kidnapping you, Gregor and Vorpal to actually code it for us.
20:56:35 <Gregor> Why meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
20:57:56 <Gregor> Your Device doesn't scare me!
20:59:56 <Gregor> You're not pointing it at me, but suuuuuuure it is.
21:04:19 <Gregor> No, I actually am in Indiana :P
21:04:45 <Gregor> I probably can't name all fifty :P
21:05:30 -!- Flonk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:05:57 <Gregor> There's a helicopter here with my name on it.
21:06:35 -!- augur has joined.
21:06:49 <Gregor> Actually, upon further inspection, it's an autogyro.
21:08:57 <Gregor> Actually, I'm not sure what this is, but I think it's something one gets ON, not IN.
21:09:23 <alise> i can name a lot of us states but not nearly all
21:09:52 <Gregor> alise: Can you name all the states of the UK?!
21:10:15 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: I don't know how to "inspect" a thing.
21:10:30 <alise> Gregor: I can't name all counties of England.
21:10:57 <Gregor> Poor Isle of Man and Gibraltar!
21:11:04 <Gregor> Actually I have no idea what their statuses are :P
21:11:17 <alise> cpressey_: Those are not states :P
21:11:18 * cpressey_ wants to hold an esoconference in Kergeulen
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21:11:50 <alise> "There are no indigenous inhabitants, but France maintains a permanent presence of 50 to 100 scientists, engineers and researchers."
21:12:13 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: now they're... members of the commonwealth, apart from india.
21:12:20 <Gregor> alise: Surely there must be a plumber or two :P
21:12:28 <alise> Gregor: NO PLUMBERS
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21:14:04 <Gregor> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=31417429&l=cd8ecd0e3f&id=1055580469
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21:14:19 <cpressey_> Phantom_Hoover: All's I know is that we still have a portrait of the Queen in every hockey rink.
21:15:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, I thought there was a spiffy little rotate button in Preview?
21:15:39 <Vorpal> alise, I realised that when you remove the ram/disk distinction you might as well take the next natural step
21:15:40 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, but it didn't work.
21:15:53 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Apparently Facebook ignores the EXIF rotate tag X_X
21:16:01 <cpressey_> Vorpal: remove the 0/1 distinction?
21:16:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, closer!
21:16:36 <Vorpal> alise, remove the "host" distinction. A cluster would be little more than an extreme NUMA system.
21:16:48 <Vorpal> sure, you still want to limit this, you don't trust all hosts
21:16:57 <alise> Vorpal: already been done
21:17:06 <alise> ram is cache of disk is cache of global networked magic
21:17:15 <alise> Vorpal: uhh no specific links
21:17:23 <Vorpal> alise, well, any name of project then?
21:17:23 <alise> Vorpal: C Guy Yarvin has it in his ultra-abstract Urbit system
21:17:31 <alise> iirc Stanislav of Loper OS is toying with similar ideas
21:17:42 <alise> afaik, nobody's been crazy enough to actually do it /yet/
21:17:44 <alise> i am probably wrong though
21:17:51 <cpressey_> i don't think it's ever been done *successfully*, but so many people are trying that it's kind of boring imo
21:17:51 <Vorpal> alise, Inferno still had the mem/fs distinction right?
21:17:59 <alise> it's basically plan 9 in a vm
21:18:00 <alise> Vorpal: the problem is zooko's triangle
21:18:03 <Vorpal> alise, of course Inferno was right in other bits, like the JITing
21:18:10 <alise> you have to identify one object in a sea of seven hundred billion trillion
21:18:16 <alise> this has to be decentralised
21:18:25 <Vorpal> alise, sure, you need some efficient algorithms for it
21:18:29 <alise> but you also want human-meaningful; i.e. memorable
21:18:39 <alise> rather than a huge meaningless string of IPs and rubbish
21:18:43 <Vorpal> alise, and security, hm, ethernet cluster? Could be completely trusted
21:18:45 <alise> since objects can be so much more than data calculations
21:18:49 <Vorpal> alise, why run IP over it
21:18:56 <alise> Vorpal: nonono, you use internet here; anyway, it was just an example
21:19:00 <alise> an object can be an application
21:19:02 <alise> now if someone tells you
21:19:08 <Vorpal> alise, not sure latency and bw is acceptable over internet
21:19:14 <alise> "Go to ieuf98es7wyf89w3y598yh985yf983q2y5c982q3hjc9832qur98qhy98rq3h498fhc9q83h5c98h435c, it's the coolest mumble jumble application ever to fumble."
21:19:17 <Vorpal> of course depends on how you use it
21:19:23 <alise> that's not very nice
21:19:26 <alise> so you run into http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zooko's_triangle
21:19:37 <alise> and you basically have to cheat somehow
21:19:40 <alise> which is the hard part
21:19:45 <Vorpal> alise, I was thinking cluster-scale rather than global-scale
21:19:48 <alise> cpressey_: it's cool because it's part of the wider design
21:19:48 <Phantom_Hoover> My god, there was a man with "Zooko" as his last name.
21:19:52 <Vorpal> alise, at which this is not really an issue
21:19:53 <alise> Vorpal: global scale is cooler --
21:20:04 <alise> Vorpal: you get to encrypt all your own stuff by default
21:20:07 <alise> so that anyone can download your stuff
21:20:09 <Vorpal> alise, of course, but learning to crawl before flying and so on
21:20:09 <alise> it's just that they can't decrypt it
21:20:18 <alise> this also allows source-independent networking
21:20:22 <alise> networking without a sender header
21:21:02 <alise> this is cool and even one of the designers of TCP/IP says it's the right way :P
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21:22:46 <Vorpal> alise, tricky as hell though
21:23:09 <Vorpal> alise, what happens in the face of offline usage here though
21:23:29 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I had some question I really wanted to ask but I've forgotten it.
21:23:41 <Vorpal> alise, like, say, I'm somewhere with no connection whatsoever, except satellite phone
21:23:48 <Vorpal> alise, say, polar expedition
21:28:16 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I think it may have had something to do with Gregor's comments.
21:28:57 <alise> Vorpal: that's why disk caches the interwebnets
21:29:03 <alise> or rather, the bits you access
21:29:18 <alise> this is a bit more tricky than caching disk in ram since the net isn't so much of a permanent storage mechanism :)
21:29:25 <alise> and it's hard to tell what to cache, which would be a slower process
21:29:36 <alise> definitely something for the pipe-dream-from-the-position-of-an-already-pipish-dream OS
21:29:40 <alise> not the pipe-dream OS
21:32:20 <Gregor> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=31417429&l=cd8ecd0e3f&id=1055580469 Fix't :P
21:33:49 <Vorpal> <alise> this is a bit more tricky than caching disk in ram since the net isn't so much of a permanent storage mechanism :) <-- indeed
21:34:22 <Vorpal> alise, I would suggest aiming for local, then cluster level. Before even attempting global scale
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21:34:48 <Vorpal> alise, anyway, what do you think of the JIT model of inferno?
21:34:57 <Vorpal> alise, is it something like that you aim for?
21:35:08 <Vorpal> (it seems like a sane way to do it)
21:37:07 <alise> Vorpal: probably something like that.
21:39:00 <alise> I want to make a tablety touchscreeny computer now.
21:39:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: latter
21:39:08 <alise> Gregor made no OS comments.
21:39:22 <alise> <alise> I want to make a tablety touchscreeny computer now. ;; primarily for the OS, that is.
21:42:52 <Gregor> I want to see a nonsucky OS for such a device :P
21:43:04 <Gregor> Or really, I want to see a nonsucky interface.
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21:43:08 <Gregor> The OS is kind of uninteresting.
21:44:02 <alise> Gregor: Well, yeah, that's what I mean.
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21:44:50 <alise> Gregor: It'd probably be Linux-based, just for the geek-out factor. And, uh, the massive amount of applications factor.
21:44:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:45:09 <alise> (Tweaking Chromium excessively rated as far easier than writing a new browser from scratch)
21:45:19 <alise> Gregor: With water in it?
21:45:21 <Gregor> I don't know if you're going to get the massive amount of applications factor if the interface is new and unique
21:46:31 <alise> Gregor: Well, they'd look remarkably like an ugly Linux application stuffed into fullscreen with a tiny bit of UI around it.
21:46:50 <alise> But if they're like, say, an editor, where you have a toolbar and shit and then just a big expanse of text that is fine being stretched, it'd be fine.
21:46:56 <alise> Or even an IRC client.
21:47:17 <alise> Form factor is important. Requires thinking.
21:47:21 <cpressey_> olsner: thanks for your question! i've filed it in the queue.
21:47:32 <alise> Gregor: I'm not sure how much X11 will like an overlayed touchscreen keyboard, but there's only one way to find out!
21:48:00 <Gregor> alise: Idonno, Matchbox seems to have managed it, though that's now very olde.
21:48:02 <alise> (It'll have Bluetooth and maybe some way to use USB so don't whine about not being able to use a real keyboard kthx.)
21:48:16 <alise> USB would be via an adapter though, otherwise it'd be way too thick.
21:48:27 <alise> Gregor: Hee, Openmoko.
21:48:31 <Gregor> Just have an OTG port.
21:48:33 <alise> So wonderfully shit.
21:48:36 <olsner> I'm going to try something weird now: going to bed on the right side of midnight
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21:48:51 <Gregor> I'm not saying matchbox is a good interface (Openmoko used matchbox?), I'm saying it had on-screen keyboards :P
21:49:03 <alise> Openmoko used Matchbox on the Neo 1973.
21:49:25 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/1112FIC326x550.jpg
21:49:30 <alise> Dig that brushed metal UI.
21:49:39 <alise> (Note: By "dig" I mean "vomit".)
21:49:47 <alise> Guess when it was released?
21:49:54 <alise> Two thousand and fucking seven they released this.
21:50:01 <alise> How amazing is that?
21:50:10 <Gregor> But ... that doesn't look like Matchbox to me :P
21:50:15 <Gregor> I guess it could be a very customized Mathcbox.
21:50:20 <alise> They probably ruined it, like they ruined everything in existence ever.
21:50:27 <Vorpal> alise, with abstracting away fs/memory distinction, how do you handle stuff like cds and usb sticks? Would still be useful to communicate with other systems
21:50:38 <alise> They even kept that ludicrous form factor for the successor phone.
21:50:47 <alise> That wasn't so orange/metally, though. So there's an improvement. A single improvement.
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21:50:53 <alise> No 3G because 3G isn't ~FREE AS IN FIEFDOM~
21:51:14 <alise> Vorpal: Those are just objects! Like everything :P
21:51:23 <Gregor> I'll bet the browser sucked foot.
21:51:32 <Vorpal> alise, objects wrapping file systems?
21:51:36 <alise> Gregor: Probably more than foot.
21:51:40 <alise> Vorpal: Oh, you mean filesystems.
21:51:59 <alise> Vorpal: Uhh... probably it'll have some sort of filesystem compatibility API if we stoop so low to allow that kind of rabble.
21:52:00 <Vorpal> alise, well yes, if I want to get some data stored on an ISOwhatever
21:52:13 <alise> Otherwise it'll happily ask you if you want to format it to store objects!
21:52:18 <Vorpal> alise, or what if I want to load images from my camera's flash card
21:52:32 <Vorpal> alise, these images I would store into a set
21:52:33 <alise> (Although saying "yes" would be a sign of insanity, as there are guaranteed to be no other systems that can read it on your continent.)
21:52:55 <alise> Vorpal: Yeah, it'd probably have a FAT32-as-nested-tree compatibility layer or whatever.
21:53:01 <alise> FAT32-as-nested-tree-with-extra-filesystem-functions, and whatnot.
21:53:08 <Vorpal> alise, would be useful yes
21:53:26 <alise> cpressey_: You became interested when I wsa boring and old?
21:53:38 <Vorpal> alise, FAT12/16/32 is about what is needed I think. Oh and ISOwhatever & UDF for cds.
21:53:41 <alise> Gregor: There's a OTG *micro* plug!
21:53:45 <alise> It's even smaller than a mini plug!
21:53:52 <Vorpal> alise, don't really need any support for other file systems
21:53:57 <alise> SO SMALL IT IS ACTUALLY INVISIBLE TO THE NATIVE EYE
21:54:08 <Gregor> alise: ... "native"? :P
21:54:11 <alise> Anyone who wants to read a Linux filesystem is a FAG.
21:54:21 <alise> Natives have been known to be naked!
21:54:35 <alise> Gregor: Can OTG still deliver the same amount of power?
21:54:52 <alise> Gregor: In specific?
21:54:52 <Vorpal> alise, how will the actual object storage be done? Got any relevant links or such to read?
21:55:06 <cpressey_> alise: I became interested imagining how filesystems-as-we-know-them and your objectspace could seamlessly coexist
21:55:09 <alise> The device will have batteries made of magic unicorns and use 0.0004 W, so.
21:55:12 <Gregor> alise: I think that's an implementation question, not a standards question. That is, a given OTG implementation may choose to do better.
21:55:16 <alise> We have power spare!
21:55:43 <Gregor> But in general they refuse to provide more than whatever the default minimum is (100mA?)
21:55:46 <Vorpal> alise, and will the language for your OS use dependant typing and so on?
21:55:59 <alise> Vorpal: Naive form: Pick binary object serialisation format. Set up some sort of on-disk paging mechanism to map The Address Space to disk. Allocate spaces on disk when you allocate objects (of a reasonable lifespan, perhaps, blah blah).
21:56:12 <alise> Serialise dirty objects -- or have them serialise themselves -- every (small interval).
21:56:22 <alise> Vorpal: Uh, the Dream Ideal OS? Who nkws
21:56:29 <alise> It's so perfect that I don't know what it is.
21:56:43 <cpressey_> just tell me where to start coding
21:56:45 <Vorpal> alise, hm, but how will we keep track of the objects. I mean, If I want to find some text I wrote about something before
21:56:57 <Vorpal> alise, with an FS I have the obvious root to start at
21:57:07 <Vorpal> then walk to wherever I want to
21:57:17 <alise> Vorpal: well obviously you can browse object space with queries and such
21:57:22 <alise> but most likely you'd have an indexing server
21:57:28 <alise> set to index stuff created as normal text or whatever
21:57:33 <alise> (rather than as a transient calculated object)
21:57:42 <alise> it's hard to be certain about any of this before it's tried out
21:57:47 <alise> but it's clearly /workable/
21:58:21 <Vorpal> alise, well lets say I just want to go back to that university-assignment-object that I worked on yesterday (but I closed it for some reason, never mind what). What would be the most likely way to re-locate it
21:58:53 <alise> Vorpal: [Magic Search Keybinding] yesterday whatever-your-university-is-called-or-a-segment-of-the-essay-title-or-whatever.
21:59:05 <alise> (The "ultra-quick magic search" interface that you start off with will magically interpret specific words, most likely.)
21:59:11 <alise> (You could finetune it afterwards.)
21:59:27 <Vorpal> alise, interesting. Would there be some sort of tags to group all assignments together
21:59:37 <Vorpal> to create something like the views of gmail or such
21:59:39 <alise> If you want, I guess.
21:59:50 <alise> Remember that this is all random ramblings by someone who, like everyone, hasn't done it yet :)
22:00:18 <Vorpal> alise, I believe it could be done though. And should be done. What is going on with loper OS for example?
22:00:22 <alise> but I think I've thought about it enough to know that there is a solution
22:00:24 <Vorpal> alise, also it reminds me of smalltalk
22:00:26 <alise> i'm just not certain what it is yet
22:00:29 <alise> Vorpal: that is one of my top inspirations
22:00:44 <alise> it's a great shame Smalltalk the OS was never pursued further
22:01:02 <Vorpal> alise, so a lot of the parts are around, just not in one place and at an OS level?
22:01:14 <alise> Vorpal: Loper OS -- Stanislav is busy fantasising about building an FPGA Lisp Machine and masturbating to his Symbolics machines.
22:01:19 <alise> (Restate that less crudely if you desire.)
22:01:21 <alise> Oh, and writing blog posts.
22:01:24 <Vorpal> alise, I want a concept compositing operator :P
22:01:34 <alise> Wouldn't that be nice.
22:02:01 <cpressey_> alise: do you realize what i could do to your house with only $50 worth of dynamite? jeez
22:02:09 <alise> Vorpal: You know, if any of this had come up in 2007/2008, I bet you'd be defending REAL PROPER UNIX over these insane unworkable systems :-D
22:02:14 <Vorpal> like smalltalk . lisp . haskell . dependant typing
22:02:19 <alise> cpressey_: Are you _entirely_ sober?
22:02:30 <cpressey_> alise: it's re the latest post on the loper os blog
22:02:54 <alise> Vorpal: We've poisoned you! Mwahahaha!
22:02:55 <Vorpal> alise, however, I bet you will continue using *nix based systems for years to come. Rather than actually do this
22:03:00 <cpressey_> alise: Stanislav is a little... out of perspective sometimes
22:03:07 <alise> Vorpal: Oh, I'll do it if I can.
22:03:10 <alise> I just won't use it.
22:03:12 <alise> I'll iterate forever. :)
22:03:19 <Vorpal> alise, um? why not use it?
22:03:24 <alise> Because it isn't perfect yet!
22:03:41 <Vorpal> alise, you can't have second system syndrome until you have a *first* system
22:03:45 <alise> ...I have rather less free time than as of this time last year, so who knows how quickly progress will go.
22:03:48 <Vorpal> unless unix is the first system
22:03:50 <alise> Vorpal: the first system is everything else!
22:04:00 <alise> technically unix is like
22:04:01 <Vorpal> it is second system syndrome
22:04:13 <alise> the first and second systems were on the right track
22:04:16 <alise> unix came and ruined it all
22:04:16 <Vorpal> alise, well yes, but not for you personally
22:04:20 <alise> and now it's fourth system syndrome
22:04:28 <alise> trying to improve on the first and second without having them
22:04:51 <Vorpal> alise, the first and second ones being?
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22:05:09 <alise> Vorpal: ehh -- lisp machines, some aspects of Multics...
22:05:15 <alise> there are others, I've just forgotten them.
22:05:20 <Vorpal> hm I'd love to just be able to pull up an inspector on anything, just like in genera, or squeak. Genera more so iirc.
22:05:29 <Vorpal> like my browser window
22:05:30 <alise> Vorpal: yes. very.
22:05:55 <alise> Vorpal: as the system will be source-only and obviously have a nice debugger, that's easy
22:05:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, pretty useless for most apps here
22:06:06 <Vorpal> no symbolic info relevant to it and so on
22:06:07 <alise> you'll be able to fiddle about with anything
22:06:13 <alise> modify code on the fly
22:06:20 <alise> change the web page it's rendering underneath it
22:06:27 <Vorpal> alise, how useful would this be to non-geeks I wonder
22:06:39 <alise> well... ideally the user/programmer distinction should be eliminated
22:06:47 <alise> since a programmer is just a sufficiently advanced user
22:06:49 <Vorpal> alise, you think that is realistic?
22:06:52 <alise> unfortunately: no.
22:06:55 <alise> not right now, at least.
22:06:56 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, so compilation will just be a cache for certain things
22:07:05 <alise> Vorpal: maybe when this generation has its kids.
22:07:07 <Vorpal> alise, I mean, look at the average user
22:07:14 <fizzie> Er, ignore those numbers.
22:07:27 <alise> I think we're getting better at adjusting to change, due to its accelerating rate.
22:07:28 <Vorpal> alise, I doubt it. Look at those in your age. Most aren't geeks
22:07:37 <Vorpal> alise, you are aiming for 2 generations ahead at least
22:07:39 <alise> Vorpal: no, but they can use a computer, and more importantly, they're better at adjusting to change
22:07:56 <Vorpal> alise, at this age. Everyone gets more set in their ways as they grow older
22:07:56 <alise> so they'll be more up-to-date when they're raising their kids, giving their kids a better bootstrap
22:08:05 <alise> Vorpal: but not really:
22:08:10 <alise> this is not true of everyone, certainly not
22:08:23 <alise> there are incredibly flexible, high-tech, intelligent old people
22:08:30 <alise> and i think this is becoming more common
22:08:35 <Vorpal> alise, certainly. The majority though? nah
22:08:36 <alise> the rate of change is accelerating and i believe we're adapting.
22:08:45 <alise> humanity isn't a constant
22:08:59 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i never said this generation could do that in particular
22:09:11 <alise> i'm just saying we're adapting to become better adapters :)
22:09:25 <alise> Anyway, this is rambling.
22:09:56 <alise> Vorpal: I believe the system will not be useful to non-geeks because it will be totally unlike anything they've learned, making people hate it,
22:10:07 <alise> and also because it won't have the backwards-compatibility of their current machines.
22:10:12 <Vorpal> alise, I despair watching most other CS students of my year program. One or two manage yes. But out of maybe 15 or so only a few are anything near my level. And these are not your average people. They are after all second year CS students. Which implies that all have some interest in the area and managed the first year...
22:10:16 <alise> Although web apps are making that less prevalent, what's the point of running this just for a browser?
22:11:29 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I must agree with Vorpal here; very very very few people are good programmers.
22:11:33 <Vorpal> alise, true backwards compat likely will be whatever-you-call-a-killer-feature-that-isn't-there
22:11:59 <Phantom_Hoover> And they tend to go for less boring careers in mathematics or the sciences, I think.
22:12:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, perhaps.
22:12:22 <alise> Vorpal: A mother-feature!
22:13:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, basically I feel like I'm surrounded by morons there. Sure, morons that try as far as their ability allow them to. But still morons. There just just one other person I could discuss topics covered in this channel with really.
22:13:53 <Vorpal> and not all of those topics
22:14:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and he previously worked at a call center. Poor him.
22:14:16 <Phantom_Hoover> (I think societal pressures contribute largely to this, though.)
22:14:37 <alise> Vorpal: it has to be said that #esoteric is a rather above-average sample.
22:14:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Actually showing any extracurricular interest in computing results in you being branded a nerd and being ostracised...
22:15:03 <Vorpal> <alise> Vorpal: it has to be said that #esoteric is a rather above-average sample. <-- true
22:15:13 <alise> Gregor: Hmm, crazy keyboard idea:
22:15:26 <Vorpal> alise, even the worst people in here are above average. And I'm not naming any names. But virtual worlds comes to mind.
22:15:28 <alise> Gregor: There's a little eject button that prolapses^Wlets out a keyboard shoved inside the machine's body.
22:15:41 <alise> It has a hinge that can somehow support it, so you can basically turn it into a pretty-strange horizontal laptop.
22:15:50 <alise> With a bit of a small screen.
22:16:10 <alise> Vorpal: Sgeo's right here
22:16:20 <alise> And he may be a necrophiliac and think PSOX is a good idea but he's not stupid :P
22:16:21 <Vorpal> alise, who? No I didn't mention any names
22:16:27 <alise> Oh, the /other/ virtual worlds fan!
22:17:03 <Vorpal> alise, actually I meant the two other fans
22:17:13 <Vorpal> I'm sure some of our idlers
22:17:27 <alise> We have an awful lot of idlers.
22:17:33 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Actually showing any extracurricular interest in computing results in you being branded a nerd and being ostracised... <-- I haven't seen that so much actually
22:17:34 <alise> For a very small channel that is nonetheless active.
22:17:47 <alise> I'd say there are maybe 10 people who talk more than once every three plus months.
22:17:52 <alise> And that's an overestimate, I'd wager.
22:18:09 <Vorpal> alise, I think it sounds like a pretty good estimate
22:18:19 <cpressey_> Does Megazeux count as a virtual world?
22:18:22 <alise> I need a screen that can shrink.
22:18:33 <Vorpal> alise, few talk like me and you though. fizzie should make one of them graphs again
22:18:39 <Vorpal> with data from the last year
22:18:45 <alise> So you get a smallish laptop with a keyboard, slide the keyboard back in, press the magic button, and it turns into a handheld tablet.
22:19:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, me, alise, Sgeo, cpressey_, coppro, ais523, augur, fizzie, Gregor, nooga, oerjan, oklopol, pikhq at least/
22:19:05 <alise> Vorpal: And nobody talks like me with the same amount of intelligence in every line!
22:19:14 <Vorpal> <alise> Gregor: There's a little eject button that prolapses^Wlets out a keyboard shoved inside the machine's body. <-- you mean like thinkpad with butterfly keyboard?
22:19:18 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Wow, that's fourteen.
22:19:28 <ais523> meanwhile, I've been working on a new compression algorithm
22:19:36 <alise> Vorpal: Imagine an iPad (I assume you at least know what one /looks/ like; if not, imagine a big iPhone)
22:19:48 <alise> Vorpal: Now imagine a little pushed-in-slot on the side with an eject button.
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22:20:02 <alise> When you press it, it spits out a physical keyboard from inside the device, and snaps into position when it is taken fully out.
22:20:12 <Vorpal> alise, I know what an ipad looks like, though not in detail (as in I seen photos, and I presume it as a power button hidden somewhere and a few such things)
22:20:13 <alise> Now imagine that somehow there's a hinge-type dealie which can support this in a laptop position.
22:20:45 <alise> (Now imagine that the thing is bigger, so that it's a regular style laptop, except it has a button which shrinks it to sanely-holdable-like-an-iPad size if the keyboard is in.)
22:20:45 <fizzie> Hey, me. I don't have time for that right now, but I'll keep that in mind and try to remember to make some more up-to-date graphs.
22:20:47 <Vorpal> alise, but it would have to be a very flat keyboard
22:20:50 <alise> That last bit is a bit fantastical.
22:20:58 <alise> Vorpal: Yeah, well, it's already magical, you can't expect miracles.
22:21:00 <Vorpal> alise, I don't think getting a model m feeling would be realistic
22:21:15 <alise> Vorpal: You can make scissor-switches quite pleasant. But hey, it's better than a touchscreen keyboard by far.
22:21:26 <alise> ...besides, if you want a Model M:
22:21:39 <alise> Buy a Unicomp with a USB port (Model M power requirements are ludicrous even when adapted to USB).
22:21:43 <Vorpal> alise, model M *terminal edition* ;P
22:21:47 <alise> Get a USB<->USB On-The-Go cable.
22:21:52 <alise> Plug in to device.
22:21:57 <alise> Enjoy lugging around forever.
22:22:02 <alise> Contemplate waste of life.
22:22:12 <Vorpal> alise, yeah, sadly it is not realistic
22:22:20 <alise> Vorpal: Pfft, Model F indahouse.
22:22:38 <alise> Sure, it had the strangest layout imaginable, but that magnetic hall-effect thing?
22:22:41 <alise> Best keyfeel ever!
22:22:43 <alise> (I've never used one.)
22:22:52 <alise> Vorpal: the keyboard that is better than the model M and predates it
22:22:55 <Vorpal> alise, link or something? I get completely irrelevant hits
22:23:02 <alise> the hardcore keyboard fans of the Model M-type disposition love it
22:23:07 <Vorpal> alise, and magnetic hall effect is awesome everywhere
22:23:07 <alise> Vorpal: http://geekhack.org/
22:23:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Possibly-relevant fact: at my old school, all computing classes stopped completely at 13-14.
22:23:13 <Vorpal> alise, my joystick uses it
22:23:15 <alise> If it's a geeky keyboard, geekhack, always.
22:23:24 <alise> Vorpal: Well, every key on the Model F is that.
22:23:36 <alise> It's an even heavier press than the Model M, I think.
22:23:38 <Vorpal> alise, where on there is the "search"
22:23:49 <alise> Vorpal: I think you might have to log in.
22:23:53 <alise> http://geekhack.org/forumdisplay.php?f=38
22:23:58 <alise> On the header of that forum.
22:24:03 <alise> There's a search link.
22:24:08 <alise> Probably you just want to search in reviews and pictures.
22:24:33 <alise> Name the three letter acronym of a common computer interface used for peripherals such as keyboards and mice."
22:24:42 <alise> PSF! (The F is for Forwardslash Two)
22:25:06 <alise> Vorpal: http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=10909
22:25:23 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey_, wait, surely you'd heard me bitch about my schools idiotic computing course before/
22:25:30 <alise> And yes, Ctrl is in what some people consider the Right Place.
22:25:34 <alise> And yes, Alt is where Ctrl is on modern keyboards.
22:25:37 <Vorpal> alise, argh why does it show full size in the thread
22:25:42 <alise> Vorpal: try refreshing
22:25:49 <alise> Vorpal: yes it's a pain
22:25:51 <ais523> mice used to be serial back when I first started using them
22:26:01 <alise> hmm, that model F porn is actually just one picture
22:26:06 <ais523> and keyboards used a DIN interface, that's another
22:26:17 <ais523> I don't know of that one
22:26:22 <alise> Although it did say "common".
22:26:29 <alise> ais523: the beautiful original Apple bus
22:26:36 <alise> ais523: used S-Video cables
22:26:40 <alise> very, very simple protocol
22:26:41 <fizzie> ais523: Or LPT. Though that also is not so terribly "common".
22:26:49 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Desktop_Bus
22:26:56 <ais523> fizzie: LPT was rarely used for things like keyboard and mice
22:26:58 <Vorpal> alise, http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?s=0c174c8b14d11bdf94a6cd991f87bc4e&t=10987&highlight=Model
22:27:10 <alise> Vorpal: and you find your new favourite keyboard. :P
22:27:15 <ais523> you have to do all sorts of weird things with it to be able to both send and receive, normally LPT was for send-only devices like printers
22:27:18 <fizzie> ais523: Rarely, but still used. Especially for DIY keyboardy adapters.
22:27:24 <Vorpal> alise, non-clickly I presume
22:27:31 <alise> Vorpal: no, clicky
22:27:36 <alise> imagine the model m feel
22:27:39 <alise> except while model m is 8
22:27:42 <Vorpal> alise, in which way does it use the hall effect?
22:27:46 <ais523> (I seem to remember duplex-parallel worked by reversing the directions of four of the data lines; you needed hardware support to pull that off)
22:27:49 <alise> i think it's hall-effect
22:28:00 <alise> it's a really expensive insanely authentically clicky method
22:28:07 <alise> and people love it
22:28:20 <fizzie> ais523: Anyway, parallel port was used for pretty fast bidirectional data transfer, c.f. LapLink.
22:28:35 <alise> Vorpal: while you fawn over the idea of a 122-keyboard, I wish I had enough money to buy http://elitekeyboards.com/proddata/images/th/pdkb400wn_iso_th620x400.jpg :P
22:28:39 <fizzie> ais523: Did you happen to notice me Forthing your "cancel fractions" task? (Though not very well.)
22:29:03 <alise> ($265! But they ARE Topre keyswitches... and it DOES have DIP switches on the back for configuration...)
22:29:11 <Vorpal> alise, I couldn't fit a 122 key keyboard :(
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22:30:35 <alise> Vorpal: geekhack is a great way to waste hours if you're a keyboard nerd, or to develop a keyboard nerdiness if you don't already possess one
22:30:47 <alise> you go around thinking "oh, buckling springs are absolutely fine for me" and then BOOM
22:30:49 <fizzie> ais523: I also wrote a sort of a "in the spirit of it" Befunge implementation, which "works" for some values of "works": it's just that the Befunge-93 playfield only stores characters, not full-stack-cell-width numbers, and storing in multiple playfield cells would've taken far too much space; and the only built-in number output forcibly puts that space after it, which is not so good when it needs "nnn/mmm".
22:31:04 <alise> they start talking about the nuances and tweaking of tiny little switches made of individually-hand-carved, living gnomes
22:31:05 <Vorpal> alise, alas I do find that I like one that doesn't require too much force. Model M feeling but less force would be perfect
22:31:11 <alise> with little velvet cussions at the bottom
22:31:32 <alise> Vorpal: Cherry MX Blue (if you like the insipid, unuseful "click") or Brown (if you don't; they still clack, just not an actual TIC! type of click)
22:31:50 <Vorpal> alise, I prefer less sound in fact
22:31:53 <alise> Vorpal: or Topre, which is like typing on silk and velvet with tactile feedback; very gentle switches, expensive as hell. Capacitative!
22:32:13 <alise> They're made of a rubber dome-style membrane, and /underneath/ they have a spring on top of the circuit.
22:32:25 <alise> The circuit is capacitative.
22:32:33 <alise> You can imagine how much they cost.
22:32:36 <Vorpal> alise, but F24 would be just awesome. I would design programs that required you to use those keys to operate. Just to mess around with people
22:32:42 <fizzie> ais523: Oh, and thirdly for Forth it didn't accept my version that outputted a " " after some of the lines (the ones that had "n/m" instead of just "n"), don't quite know why. I guess it's conceivable that "ignore trailing space in line" only applies when there is trailing space in all the lines, or something.
22:32:52 <alise> you can't use it on ascii systems
22:33:13 <alise> Vorpal: there's a lovely keyboard design with every fucking keyboard rolled into one by one of the geekhack members, think i've linked it here before
22:33:20 <Vorpal> alise, why not go for full Chinese keyboard?
22:33:36 <alise> Vorpal: complete unicode
22:33:42 <alise> Complete \mathbb{N} keyboard
22:33:45 <alise> Complete \mathbb{Z} keyboard
22:33:48 <alise> Complete \mathbb{Q} keyboard
22:33:50 <alise> Complete \mathbb{R} keyboard
22:33:53 <alise> Complete \mathbb{C} keyboard
22:33:56 <alise> Complete \mathbb{2^R} keyboard
22:34:03 <alise> err not 2^ as blackboard bold ofc
22:34:07 <Vorpal> that would be quite tricky to use
22:34:14 <alise> every two keys have a little door between them, see
22:34:20 <alise> and you push it apart with two fingernails
22:34:23 <alise> and it expands into stairs
22:34:26 <alise> leading down to a room
22:34:32 <alise> with all the numbers between those two numbers
22:34:35 <alise> and so on, forever
22:34:44 <alise> then you walk all the way back up to your infinitely-long computer room
22:34:57 <alise> sometimes, the lighting goes out.
22:35:20 <Vorpal> alise, as long as the magic is not based on electricity you should be fine
22:35:25 <Vorpal> if it is it sounds lethal
22:35:39 <alise> nope, it's just your average TARDIS-technology door
22:35:41 <fizzie> I was once thinking of a 256+8-key BMP keyboard; have a 16x16 grid to select the low eight bits, and 8 toggle-style keys that you use to "program" in the higher eight bits. Then you can comfortably keep all the toggles off when you're writing regular ASCII text. (And then you can do the million-dollar version that updates the keycap pictures whenever the toggles are changed).
22:35:42 <alise> ("It's bigger on the inside.")
22:36:07 <alise> fizzie: 64+9-key would be rather more practical.
22:36:25 <alise> One-handed keying is quite popular, anyway.
22:36:37 <alise> And we don't need to speculate on the reasons why, to nip that topic in the proverbial bud.
22:36:55 <alise> (I say one-handed keying because 64 isn't the whole standard keyboard set, of course.)
22:37:06 <alise> Most likely you'd have the alphabet + common punctuation on the first "plane".
22:37:32 <cpressey_> I wonder... if I covered the walls of my cubicle with keyswitches...
22:37:56 <cpressey_> Sure, I'd have to reach further. But the sheer number of switches could start to compenstate for that.
22:38:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't think tiny LCDs would cost millions?
22:39:04 <fizzie> Vorpal: That was just some hyperbolism.
22:39:12 <alise> fizzie: So, have a 16 wide by 4 high main keying area, plus a 3x3 modifier pad.
22:39:22 <alise> Hmm, 16 wide is a bit much.
22:39:34 <alise> Then you could type everything two-handed!
22:39:43 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> alise, oerjan told me R^2 was bijectable to R!
22:39:47 <alise> this is true of any infinite set
22:39:52 <alise> although i think it depends on the axiom of choice...
22:40:06 <oerjan> <Vorpal> alise, even the worst people in here are above average. And I'm not naming any names. But virtual worlds comes to mind. <-- "But you ruin _one_ keyboard..."
22:40:15 <alise> For another indication of the controversy that initially surrounded the Axiom of Choice, consider this anecdote (recounted by Jan Mycielski in Notices of the AMS vol. 53 no. 2 page 209). Tarski, one of the early great researchers in set theory and logic, proved that AC is equivalent to the statement that any infinite set X has the same cardinality as the Cartesian product X x X. He submitted his article
22:40:15 <alise> to Comptes Rendus Acad. Sci. Paris, where it was refereed by two very famous mathematicians, Fréchet and Lebesgue. Both wrote letters rejecting the article. Fréchet wrote that an implication between two well known truths is not a new result. And Lebesgue wrote that an implication between two false statements is of no interest. Tarski said that he never again submitted a paper to the Comptes Rendus.
22:40:24 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I mean
22:40:31 <fizzie> Vorpal: Just for the reference, the Optimus Maximus, which I think has the regular set of ~100 keys and a 48x48 pixel 64k-color display on each key, costs 1400 eur here in Finland.
22:40:44 <alise> |A^2| = |A| for |A| >= Aleph_0
22:40:59 <alise> fizzie: The Optimus Maximus is so silly.
22:41:04 <alise> I bet it doesn't even use nice keyswitches.
22:41:15 <fizzie> Oh, I'm sure it has horrible feel to it.
22:41:26 <alise> "10 frames per second minimum"
22:41:33 <alise> you just know they were going for the ridiculous-keyboard-movie aspect there
22:41:39 <alise> not their thinly-veiled excuse for a purpose
22:41:47 <alise> "viewing angle: 160°"
22:41:53 <alise> Viewing angle of a keyboard.
22:42:01 <alise> System requirements
22:42:02 <alise> At least 256 MB of RAM.
22:42:09 <Vorpal> alise, 160° doesn't seem too bad
22:42:14 <alise> The keyboard is just THAT POWERFUL.
22:42:32 <Vorpal> alise, nah, their drivers are that sucky :P
22:42:48 <alise> "Why isn’t there any Linux software?
22:42:49 <alise> Because first we want to let 95% of people to work with the keyboard."
22:42:56 <alise> Because 95% of people can afford, and are stupid enough to buy, it.
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22:43:44 <alise> [[What happens if I spill coffee, coke or wine on the keyboard?
22:43:44 <alise> The keyboard will likely break down. Just as a laptop, a TV or the Imperial State Crown in a similar situation.]]
22:43:45 <fizzie> Oh well, there's the OpenOptimus project Linux driver.
22:43:51 <Vorpal> alise, would get hard to see, fingerprints
22:43:51 <alise> Comparing your keyboard to the Imperial State Crown. Amazing.
22:43:54 <Vorpal> I mean you can't avoid themn
22:44:01 <fizzie> I guess it only supports the three-key model, though. :p
22:44:10 <alise> Vorpal: Oleophobic coating (like the iPhone 3G S has).
22:44:23 <alise> fizzie: http://en.wiki.gg.st/w/images/Openoptimus_interface_screenshot.png
22:44:25 <Vorpal> alise, also lifting keycaps to clean them sounds tricky
22:44:30 <alise> fizzie: I like the blabla placeholder text.
22:44:37 <alise> Vorpal: Oleophobic is the Japanese name for fear of Oreo cookies.
22:44:50 <alise> Vorpal: But instead, I will let Bill Nye the Science Guy explain.
22:44:51 <alise> http://gizmodo.com/5302097/giz-bill-nye-explains-the-iphone-3gss-oleophobic-screen/gallery/
22:44:53 <alise> http://gizmodo.com/5302097/giz-bill-nye-explains-the-iphone-3gss-oleophobic-screen/
22:45:01 <alise> Also known as "the only reason to ever open Gizmodo".
22:45:01 <fizzie> "BUGS: Still need to find out how to prevent the OLED Mini Three from powering off (it does shutdown automatically after a few seconds)."
22:45:12 <fizzie> Well, that's a minor issue.
22:47:00 <alise> [[A lipophobic coating is used on the touchscreens of the Apple iPhone 4[1] and iPad[2], and HTC Touch HD2[citation needed] and Hero[citation needed] to repel fingerprint oils.]]
22:47:26 <alise> [[In the future we are planning to offer keyboards where some buttons will have no displays (passive type). So you will be able to replace these buttons with those with displays.]]
22:47:46 <alise> "We are planning to make more keyboards that require you to give us more money than you just already gave us to get the 'advantage' of the only reason you bought it."
22:47:55 <alise> [[Tactile sensations are good: we use mechanical micro-keyswitches with a key travel of 2.5 mm. The activation force is, if you are interested, 50 ± 20 g.]]
22:48:00 <alise> Well, at least that's okay.
22:48:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:48:03 <alise> What the hell is a /micro/ keyswitch, though?
22:48:46 <alise> Vorpal: [[First of all, the feel of Model M isn't so great compared to the Model F. Well, at least, compared to my hand-me-down Model M. With my Model M, the end of the keystroke is a kind of "thud", because of the contact with the membrane of the keyboard. With the Model F, the keystroke is sharper, and more pronounced, as the little platters attached to each key are directly hitting the PCB of the keyb
22:48:46 <alise> oard. Each keystroke has a distinct "ping" that the Model M just can't really match.]]
22:49:24 <Vorpal> alise, platters? hitting PCB? no hall effect there
22:49:33 <alise> Vorpal: i forget exactly what it is :)
22:49:38 <alise> it's not buckling spring though
22:49:40 <alise> it's more ingenious
22:49:49 <alise> i'm sure i read hall effect somewhere
22:50:02 <Vorpal> alise, hall effect is sensing current without touching
22:50:38 <alise> oh, i seem to remember now
22:50:38 <Vorpal> magnetism is also related to it
22:50:44 <Vorpal> or involved in it rather
22:50:44 <alise> i think it has some magnets or something, the Model F
22:50:47 * cpressey_ uses a theremin as an input device
22:50:47 <alise> which then cause something to strike the PCB
22:50:51 <alise> rather than it hitting directly
22:50:53 <alise> something clever like that anyway
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22:53:16 <alise> listening to keyboard sounds is addictive
22:53:22 <alise> the taps are so relaxing!
22:54:48 <fizzie> Speaking of keyboards, engadget mobile had this newspost about... well, to quote:
22:54:59 <fizzie> "The company's [InputDynamics] developed a piece of software called TouchDevice that uses a phone's embedded microphone to analyze the acoustics inside, reacting to your finger's impact on the surface with a touchscreen-like input on the device. New Scientist reports that's not all, as the algorithms can also be fine tuned for detect scratches and swipes for scrolling and zoom, --"
22:55:04 <alise> Vorpal: Look at this lovely thing with a real TrackPoint in it: http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:4917
22:55:07 <fizzie> Sounds like something unlikely to work very well.
22:55:10 <alise> Unfortunately, the product was cancelled.
22:55:24 <alise> like voice recognition for fingers
22:55:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, how reliable is it?
22:55:46 <Vorpal> I mean a phone doesn't have one in each corner
22:55:50 <fizzie> Vorpal: That's anyone's guess; but my personal guess is "not very".
22:57:27 <fizzie> "The software can identify the point of contact to within about 1 square centimetre."
22:57:37 <Vorpal> <alise> Vorpal: Look at this lovely thing with a real TrackPoint in it: http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:4917 <-- no arrow keys? :(
22:57:44 <alise> Vorpal: oh stop whining, it's awesome
22:57:49 <alise> you use emacs anyway
22:57:53 <alise> man up and learn the ctrl shortcuts
22:58:05 <Vorpal> alise, more keypresses
22:58:08 <alise> besides, it's in a case made out of fucking aluminium
22:58:14 <alise> Vorpal: err, hand travel is much more significant
22:58:19 <Vorpal> alise, anyway, wrong shape of enter key :P
22:58:19 <alise> considering you press thousands of keys a minute
22:58:38 <alise> Gregor: I hire you as a consultant on the Slate.
22:58:39 <Vorpal> alise, well I don't I'm not a typist.
22:58:49 <alise> Which will be the name of my hypothetical tablet right up until Slate magazine sues me.
22:59:00 <alise> Vorpal: How fast can you type?
22:59:04 <Vorpal> alise, anyone programming spends more time thinking than writing. At least for most languages
22:59:09 <Gregor> alise: Watch out or it'll become LCARS :P
22:59:14 <oerjan> <alise> although i think it depends on the axiom of choice... <-- in fact it's equivalent to it
22:59:16 <alise> Gregor: I am watching out.
22:59:40 <alise> Gregor: You: find me something that has an ARM chip on it and also USB OTG.
22:59:51 <alise> that's what i meant
22:59:54 <alise> and i quoted it after
23:00:04 <alise> Gregor: What GHz is it again?
23:00:20 * oerjan is typing far up in the backscroll in case you didn't guess
23:00:28 <alise> I mean, this is going to be powering a decent-resolution (well, for a small thing) screen with X11 on Linux running some sort of modern browser :)
23:00:40 <alise> http://beagleboard.org/hardware-xM
23:00:45 <alise> Hmm, Cortex-A8 at 1 GHz.
23:00:55 <alise> Just 512 MiB of RAM, though. And DDR, too.
23:00:57 <alise> Well, the amount is fine.
23:01:01 <alise> The DDR part... not so much.
23:01:23 <alise> Gregor: Do you know what the Beagleboard's OTG power supply is like?
23:01:33 <Gregor> alise: 100mA no matter what.
23:01:36 <alise> Could it power a fancy mouse or keyboard?
23:01:57 <Gregor> alise: I've cheated by buying a USB hub with secondary power and plugging the secondary power into a cheap USB battery.
23:02:00 <alise> Gregor: So many LEDs it's like turning the basement light on.
23:02:02 <Gregor> I did not cause explosions by doing this.
23:02:17 -!- augur has joined.
23:02:21 <alise> What about the Optimus Shittus Maximus? :P
23:02:39 <GreaseMonkey> i love this: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/IRP
23:02:52 <alise> GreaseMonkey: 2005 welcomes you!
23:03:19 <alise> I LOVE HAVING SEX WITH MEN!
23:03:25 <alise> AS MUCH AS I LOVE 2005
23:03:28 <alise> AND I REALLY HATED 2005.
23:03:40 <alise> 2005 WAS THE FIRST TIME I HAD SEX WITH A MAN.
23:03:46 <GreaseMonkey> but yeah, what was that C subset language or am i just imagining things?
23:03:49 <alise> SO OBVIOUSLY I HATE IT
23:03:54 <alise> to less capitally pastures
23:03:58 <alise> GreaseMonkey: dunno.
23:04:05 <Gregor> GreaseMonkey: Uhhh, there are lots of C subset languages ...
23:04:50 <alise> <Gregor> alise: I've cheated by buying a USB hub with secondary power and plugging the secondary power into a cheap USB battery.
23:04:53 <pikhq> Including the preprocessor!
23:05:06 <alise> also, i wonder if we can hook up the fancy battery to two things at once
23:05:10 <alise> to supply usb power
23:05:15 <Gregor> alise: Bluetooth adapter.
23:05:15 <alise> i.e. have everything on a hub
23:05:18 <Gregor> alise: Oh, and a mouse.
23:05:20 <alise> although it'd be hard to stuff it all in
23:05:30 <alise> we'd have built-in bluetooth :P
23:05:55 <alise> Gregor: do you think the pop-out keyboard with hinge idea is feasible?
23:06:00 <alise> I really hope it is, because that would be kickass.
23:06:18 <Gregor> What's wrong with sliding or something else more ... conventional?
23:06:50 <Gregor> I mean, I don't think that's infeasible, I just think it's not appreciably better than more achievable alternatives :P
23:06:58 <alise> "Oh hello, I'm just tapping on my EVEN BETTER THAN IPAD. Look at my seamless multitasking of fancy things and hardcore Linux applications. LOOK AT IT. I am typing in a terminal. Whoops! I just put it on the table. And took out a keyboard. And hinged it up. Oh hello, I'm just typing on my AWESOME NETBOOK."
23:07:05 -!- cheater99 has joined.
23:07:06 <alise> Gregor: Sliding keyboard == tiny keyboard.
23:07:31 <alise> Gregor: I guess I am basically proposing a sliding keyboard, except it's inside the casing.
23:07:48 <Gregor> So I'm just splitting hairs for effectively no reason.
23:07:52 <cpressey_> GIGANTIC SLIDING KEYBOARD CRUSHES LOCAL MAN - page 3
23:07:53 <Gregor> So yeah, E_WORKSFORME.
23:08:04 <alise> Gregor: Sweet. Now figure out how to get the whole hinge thing working.
23:08:07 <pikhq> alise: Imagine a keyboard on the iPad. That comes on a hinge. Hey, it'd be a laptop! AWESOME
23:08:13 <alise> Well, pop-out mini-stand I guess.
23:08:30 <alise> Without feeling weird in your hands all the time and popping out at the most inopportune times.
23:08:33 <Gregor> pikhq: Yes, it halves the retardedness of the iPad by making it usable for non-retarded things.
23:08:48 <ais523> don't typical hinged keyboards work by lifting up the screen to reveal a keyboard below, then rotating the screen 180 degrees so it faces the keyboard?
23:08:50 <pikhq> Gregor: Stick a proper OS on it and it ceases to be retarded.
23:08:51 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:09:16 <alise> pikhq: The OS will be proper... although obviously designed for primarily touch usage.
23:09:27 <alise> Actually that's a good point, you'd look like a dickwad touching the screen then typing.
23:09:30 <ais523> alise: what's your opinion on Android?
23:09:33 <alise> But a touch interface with a mouse would be weird. Hm.
23:09:36 <alise> ais523: Uhh, it's a mobile OS.
23:09:40 <pikhq> (is there any reason for the iPad not to have actual OS X?)
23:09:46 <alise> ais523: It's... fine?
23:09:52 <alise> pikhq: Good luck hitting targets that small.
23:09:58 <ais523> I was wondering if you were going to rant against it, or something like that
23:10:02 <alise> Also, the iPad OS is pretty good. Just not the App Store.
23:10:11 <alise> ais523: It's too boring to have an opinion on.
23:10:24 <pikhq> alise: With a better UI.
23:10:26 <GreaseMonkey> uh, someone needs to delete some spam: http://esolangs.org/forum/kareha.pl/1252908587/l50
23:10:31 <pikhq> Say, iOS except less crippled.
23:11:11 <alise> pikhq: I'm thinkin "totally-integrated UI to application selection and filesystem navigation", and "no concept of an 'open' application exposed".
23:11:28 <alise> That is, the switcher just shows a list of applications, ordered by last use; the more recently use, the brighter the icon, say.
23:11:55 <alise> And applications that can save their state and quit seamlessly get automatically closed after a certain amount of idle time.
23:12:26 <ais523> hmm, that's how Android works
23:12:40 <ais523> you switch away from an application, it keeps running in the background for a while, and might get garbage-collected later
23:12:44 <alise> ais523: i think it still has an open-app-switcher thing
23:12:52 <alise> so you still know what's open or not, so to speak
23:12:57 <ais523> and it's an application's responsibility to persist state no matter how it ends up being switched back to
23:13:01 <alise> rather than there being no concept of opening and closing applications
23:15:16 <alise> i think there'll be a tab bar of some sorts to serve as the taskbar...
23:15:27 <alise> maybe i can hack up chrome to open a new window for each tab so that that blends in
23:15:47 <alise> Gregor: I don't suppose the Beagleboard has 3G hardware? :P
23:15:58 <ais523> alise: would you ever close browser tabs?
23:15:59 <Sgeo> alise, no, I don't think it does have an open-app-switcher
23:16:09 <ais523> or would they stay open forever, just sliding down to the end of the list?
23:16:14 <pikhq> alise: The phone companies are *ridiculously* paranoid about letting custom hardware on their networks.
23:16:19 <alise> ais523: that's what i don't know :)
23:16:22 <alise> i think closing would be possible
23:16:24 <alise> just to mean "go away"
23:16:45 <alise> pikhq: it's a total shame because non-3G mobile internet is shit
23:16:49 <alise> EDGE is half-acceptable, but...
23:16:56 <pikhq> If you don't mind a lack of voice access, though, you could probably figure out a way to get a 3G modem hooked up.
23:17:02 <oerjan> GreaseMonkey: i suspect only graue has access to delete stuff on the forum
23:17:02 <ais523> I like the idea of a web page and an application being indistinguishable, on that sort of system
23:17:07 <alise> pikhq: oh, no telephone capabilities
23:17:10 <ais523> even though it's one of the things I hate about IE8 on Windows 7
23:17:13 <alise> ais523: I think Jolicloud does that
23:17:15 * pikhq would *love* to homebrew a cell phone
23:17:33 <alise> pikhq: It's just a tiny tablet PC with telephone equipment :P
23:17:41 <alise> I mean I agree I would too, but...
23:17:45 <alise> I never actually use the phone part of my phone.
23:17:52 <pikhq> I do, but not often.
23:17:59 * Sgeo once, a long time ago, saw a kit on building your own cell phone
23:18:00 <ais523> hmm... I'm busy discovering that bubble sort really is /that/ inefficient
23:18:02 <alise> If I really needed to call someone, I would be happy using Skype.
23:18:05 <Sgeo> I think it was for kids
23:18:06 <ais523> what's the best way to sort a linked list? mergesort?
23:18:14 <alise> Sgeo: it was probably just "Put the case on!"
23:18:16 <alise> ais523: i think so
23:18:22 <pikhq> Nor do I use the mobile Internet *much*. (typically use WiFi)
23:18:26 <alise> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/algorithms/listsort.html
23:18:30 <alise> first result for "sort a linked list"
23:18:33 <alise> WikiAnswers - How would you sort a linked list
23:18:34 <alise> Computer Terminology question: How would you sort a linked list? using merge sort.http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/algorithms/listsort.html.
23:18:36 <alise> Merge sort - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
23:18:36 <alise> Merge sort is often the best choice for sorting a linked list: in this situation it is relatively easy to implement a merge sort in such a way that it ...
23:19:03 <ais523> yep; I can sort-of see how it would be implemented
23:19:04 <alise> mergesort is my favourite sorting algorithm
23:19:08 <alise> ais523: click that link to see how :P
23:19:16 <alise> (by the PuTTY developer)
23:19:23 <alise> also by the coroutines-in-C macros "developer"
23:19:35 <alise> "Enigma: a block-pushing puzzle game. Originally invented by a friend; converted to a curses-based Unix game by me."
23:19:38 <alise> got confused there
23:19:42 <alise> thought it was the other Enigma
23:20:15 <Sgeo> What was it orignally?
23:20:15 <oerjan> GreaseMonkey: also that spam is several months old, there isn't _really_ enough to bother, it's just there are even _less_ real posts :D D:
23:20:23 <Sgeo> Before being a UNIX game?
23:20:30 <alise> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/enigma/
23:20:34 <alise> I can't claim credit for inventing Enigma; the game rules were devised by somebody else, who also designed the twelve original levels. He wishes to remain anonymous, so he has donated the levels to the public domain. This reimplementation of the game engine is done in C, from scratch, by me.
23:20:56 <alise> ais523: you're the Insanity Consultant for Slate
23:21:01 <alise> your job is to keep everyone else sufficiently insane
23:21:28 <Sgeo> Time to watch The Guild
23:21:30 <ais523> alise: there are quite a few games called Enigma, IIRC
23:21:43 <alise> Gracenotes: "It has elements of Boulderdash and elements of Sokoban"
23:21:43 <cpressey_> alise: why does he get scare quotes around "developer"?
23:21:50 <Sgeo> Counting the ex-game?
23:21:56 <alise> cpressey_: It's the same guy; and because they're only a few lines long really.
23:21:58 <alise> It's more an article.
23:23:10 <oerjan> ais523: i'm pretty sure ghc uses merge for it's sort implementation, for example
23:23:16 <Sgeo> alise, the contest in Agora
23:23:20 <Sgeo> Before contracts died
23:23:29 <alise> Sgeo: ...the marble game that ais523 has made levels for
23:23:36 <alise> Gregor: ais523: I suggest we base the OS on Windows CE.
23:23:49 <ais523> there's at least one shareware game with that name too, because someone posted to the marble-game mailing list talking about it
23:24:03 <ais523> alise: wouldn't that require paying for licenses just to get started on development?
23:24:05 <Sgeo> alise, learn to ais523lineread?
23:24:07 <alise> heh, I thought for a second the list was actually called marble-game, as a historical relic
23:24:19 <ais523> and also restrict the hardware to not run on a Befunge machine?
23:24:24 <Sgeo> <ais523> alise: there are quite a few games called Enigma, IIRC
23:24:25 <Sgeo> <ais523> at least three
23:24:30 <alise> ais523: We can virtualise.
23:24:44 <ais523> do windows CE licenses allow virtualisation?
23:24:52 <alise> ais523: We'll make a business deal with Microsoft.
23:25:02 <ais523> surely you'd need a viable product first?
23:25:15 <alise> ais523: Microsoft don't have one.
23:25:20 <alise> Look where they are!
23:25:29 <ais523> xbox 360 has just started to make money, IIRC
23:25:48 <ais523> and their mouse-rebranding business is doing quite well too, I think
23:26:22 <ais523> hmm, I just remembered that I implemented a linked-list heapsort already, to the horror of anyone who knows anything about algorithms
23:28:51 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:30:53 <GreaseMonkey> well, let's say that I typed IllegalArgumentExpression by mistake.
23:33:06 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
23:34:00 <oerjan> GreaseMonkey: ...i vaguely recall that you want an IDE with autocompletion for Java. not that i've ever used one. or written anything in Java beyond the Hello World level.
23:34:49 <GreaseMonkey> the former displays garbage once you hit 2000 lines
23:35:01 <GreaseMonkey> the latter just craps out badly for no apparent reason
23:35:18 <GreaseMonkey> (it runs fine and then after some time it decides to break)
23:44:25 <alise> Gregor: pikhq: Awesome idea warning!
23:44:50 <alise> Let's not even have a concept of installed application. You have favourite applications or whatever, and opening an application for the first time just downloads it.
23:44:59 <alise> Non-favourite applications that you don't use in a while get baleeted.
23:45:19 <alise> These applications all being from the repo, that is.
23:46:53 <alise> My main fear is wrangling Linux/X11 into all this. :)
23:47:23 <oerjan> baleeted: thrown to the whales
23:47:26 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:47:32 <alise> The whales of /dev/null.
23:49:18 <alise> Gregor: pikhq: Tell me I'm an idiot or something! At least comment. :P
23:51:21 <alise> iPad: 190 x 243 mm
23:51:46 <alise> A5: 148 x 210 mm, for comparison.
23:52:07 <alise> US Letter: 216 x 279 mm
23:52:25 <alise> Conclusion: The iPad is... not any particular paper size.
23:53:06 <oerjan> !haskell (243/190, phi)
23:53:13 <alise> Just keep the comments rolling, totally.
23:53:22 <alise> oerjan: i doubt it
23:54:06 <alise> for the A# it's sqrt(2) ofc
23:54:25 <alise> "With a soft microfibre interior and reinforced panels to provide structure, the iPad Case is the perfect way to carry around your iPad. And it does double duty. It folds in just the right places to act as a stand that holds iPad at an ideal angle for watching videos and slideshows or for typing on the onscreen keyboard."
23:54:28 <alise> Gregor: They stole OUR IDEA.
23:54:44 <alise> Except, wait, not actually with the keyboard part.
23:54:54 <oerjan> !haskell (243/190, (sqrt 5 + 1)/2)
23:55:24 <oerjan> dead as a doornail, so it wasn't just phi being undefined
23:55:31 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
23:55:49 <alise> !haskell main = putStrLn "rabies"
23:56:11 <alise> oerjan: I fixed it.
23:56:18 <alise> !haskell (243/190, phi)
23:56:27 <oerjan> i said phi isn't defined
23:56:31 <alise> <EgoBot> /tmp/input.520.hs:2:0: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
23:56:38 <oerjan> just a braino, since pi is
23:56:38 <alise> !haskell (243/190, (sqrt 5 + 1)/2)
23:56:41 <EgoBot> (1.2789473684210526,1.618033988749895)
23:56:47 <alise> I am such a genius for fixing that.
23:58:03 <Sgeo> When will HackEgo have Factor [language]?
23:58:14 <alise> sdoifjodfjoidjgoigfjh
23:58:16 <oerjan> Sgeo: when you add it?
23:58:22 <alise> oerjan: it needs divine intervention
23:58:25 <alise> Sgeo: he SAID he removed it
23:58:29 <alise> because it slowed down the VCS too much
23:58:36 <Sgeo> I didn't realize
23:58:37 <alise> unless you send him patches to fix the VCS it's not happening
23:58:44 <oerjan> (it's possible, in principle)
23:59:00 <oerjan> wait VCS? why is that a problem?
23:59:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:59:51 <alise> oerjan: something like that