< 1284940810 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If they don't publish their methods, you cannot know what the experiment means at all, if in fact there is one, which there might not be! < 1284940812 0 :Sgeo|Empathy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should I format the external HD? < 1284940815 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if 10000 independent groups all reproduced those results, all without publishing the methods? < 1284940822 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10,000 drunk hobos. < 1284940846 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i don't see how you can argue in that case that the result has not been independently verified < 1284940866 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's 10,000 completely different experiments which claim to be the same. < 1284940867 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the basic structure of the experiment is the same, and it is that structure that makes the desired argument < 1284940880 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :None of which can be reproduced. < 1284940889 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, indeed, could be quite easily *made up*. < 1284940894 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As such, 10,000 drunk hobos. < 1284940908 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're talking about my plots the answer is "no, because I just went to sleep". (The features those plots used also need quite a lot of comments before they start to make sense at all.) < 1284940918 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they can only be *made up* if 10000*x test subjects can all be convinced to lie < 1284940925 0 :Sgeo|Empathy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'll format the HD first < 1284940932 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed. And perhaps they could. < 1284940937 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thx fizzie < 1284940942 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or perhaps those test subjects don't exist. < 1284940949 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps, in fact, it's merely claimed they exist. < 1284940962 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, and they're all actually sock puppets? < 1284940986 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if you're going to argue that, then seeing the logs of the conversations will not convince you either < 1284940987 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I certainly couldn't test it with real people myself, because *I don't even know what they claimed to do*. < 1284940994 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it would just be someone talking to himself < 1284941007 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, with logs of the conversations just about anyone could *do it themselves*. < 1284941029 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There could, in fact, be someone testing it and going "That's weird, absolutely *none of that* happened." < 1284941031 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless their subjects had also seen such logs and as such were not fooled < 1284941053 0 :Sgeo|Empathy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So don't let the subjects see the logs! < 1284941070 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"We tested that gravity exists. Yes." This is as equally valid as this experiment. Namely, *it's a fucking hobo*. < 1284941099 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or perhaps you would prefer "We tested that gravity exists. In fact, it's God." < 1284941122 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, do you think that every published experiment that you have not, as yet, independently tried yourself, is nonsense? < 1284941131 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sure you take a leap of faith somewhere < 1284941149 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. However, it's complete and utter nonsense unless I could, in fact, *decide not to take it on faith*. < 1284941159 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Such a statement "We tested that gravity exists. In fact, it's God." is not even meaningful statement. It explains nothing about gravity or about God, or about the experiment you have performed. < 1284941170 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: My point. < 1284941188 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: OK. < 1284941201 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: you could probably do that in this case anyway. just ask them what the methods used were on pain of death if you reveal them, and try them out < 1284941223 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: But not necessarily. < 1284941224 0 :Sgeo|Empathy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :External harddrives are huge < 1284941240 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As such, it's not science, but A MOTHERFUCKING HOBO. < 1284941261 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as such, you clearly don't care whether or not it is a hobo, since you haven't tried < 1284941270 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even care if every single thing said hobo says turns out to be true, ITS STILL A FUCKING HOBO. < 1284941283 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :personally, i care < 1284941293 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I shall beat you with the full disclosure stick. < 1284941298 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if a drunken hobo has the secret to a GUT, i want to know about it < 1284941304 0 :Sgeo|Empathy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The sky is blue. I know this because magical unicorns told me so. < 1284941318 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Learn. About. Science. NOW. < 1284941340 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if there are enough reasons to believe that the hobo is not a crock of shit, i will go ask the hobo myself < 1284941350 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: LEARN ABOUT SCIENCE NOW < 1284941370 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boy did i get you wound up... < 1284941379 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. Morons do that. < 1284941397 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now learn about science or forevermore sound like a moron who thinks 2+2=þ < 1284941421 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2+2 does equal thorn. < 1284941424 0 :Sgeo|Empathy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: The sky is, at least sometimes, blue. Grass is often green. < 1284941427 0 :Sgeo|Empathy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am God. < 1284941457 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Oh, right, I forgot about your 123þ counting system. :P < 1284941519 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Just part of my base-ð numbering system. < 1284941585 0 :Sgeo|Empathy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm < 1284941594 0 :Sgeo|Empathy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can store the logfile right on the new HD < 1284941649 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see the semantic difference between our definitions of valid now. you're talking about results being validated to the general science community, whereas i'm talking about an experiment being valid as a thing-in-itself. the latter is the precursor to the former with transmutation occurring upon publication of methodologies. < 1284941688 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Okay, so I'm talking about the useful definition and you're talking about the irrelevant one. < 1284941777 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's it. Time to make a stand. < 1284941801 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :Welcome to #esoteric, the international hub for esoteric topics in computing and programming languages | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1284941807 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A stand on a completely unrelated topic. < 1284941817 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH MY I CANT BELIEVE YOU DID THAT < 1284941822 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or rather, a stand on a completely unrelated issue. < 1284941846 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Henceforth I decree that #esoteric is for esoteric topics in computing, not just esoteric programming languages :P < 1284941944 0 :Sgeo|Empathy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok < 1284941952 0 :Sgeo|Empathy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you awake? < 1284941959 0 :Sgeo|Empathy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-n to get the easy stuff first < 1284941970 0 :Sgeo|Empathy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then once that's done, -r3 to attempt the error-laden stuff? < 1284942042 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hurray! < 1284942068 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: it's a useful distinction to make nonetheless < 1284942107 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Yes, the distinction between a hobo saying correct things and a scientist saying correct things. < 1284942114 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please, don't encourage the hobos. < 1284942149 0 :augur!~augur@208-59-167-26.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1284942294 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: not the distinction i was going for here, but an interesting strawman < 1284942476 0 :Sgeo|Empathy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, BRB < 1284942481 0 :Sgeo|Empathy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wish me and my HD luck < 1284942489 0 :Sgeo|Empathy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1284942569 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1284942604 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be clearer in the future, i shall refer to the yudkowsky experiments as "validatable" rather than "valid" < 1284942837 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm playing gramophone diagonally < 1284942850 0 :alise!~alise@91.104.246.49 JOIN :#esoteric < 1284942857 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno what that means < 1284942858 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi alise < 1284942866 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:33 < nooga> i'm playing gramophone diagonally < 1284942931 0 :SgeoN2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1284942956 0 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1284942970 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:45:48 Extrapolating Moore's law infinitely as evidence for a singularity seems... dodgy. < 1284942974 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only Kurzweil does that < 1284942991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:47:25 And the fact that the good old laws of thermodynamics have *already* started to cap processor clock speeds. < 1284943001 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :general consensus is that any sane seed AI is going to convert itself to nanotech asap < 1284943008 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:48:28 I mean, we can probably push quite a bit further, but not indefinitely. < 1284943012 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't need infinite power. < 1284943024 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vinyl records are awesome < 1284943025 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:49:26 adiabatic computing could go a long way toward stepping past current heat-related limitations < 1284943028 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stop it! Stop it! Stop it! Stop it! < 1284943028 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stop trying to boot from the HD! < 1284943029 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION cries
< 1284943030 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WARNING: Adiabatic computing is quackery < 1284943043 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psychedelic metal on vinym records is doubly awesome < 1284943055 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vinyl* < 1284943088 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone got any idea how "error: unable to fork: Cannot allocate memory" could happen with plenty of memory? < 1284943089 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Argh < 1284943101 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: too many procs? < 1284943107 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :limited memory space allocated to proc table? < 1284943135 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Help me alise,! < 1284943144 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: A mere 56 procs running. < 1284943150 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :56?! < 1284943156 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've got 2 running < 1284943162 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: No, you don't. < 1284943170 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :htop says that < 1284943177 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your system is *definitely* running more than 2. < 1284943185 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if your current *shell* is not. < 1284943189 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's randomly refusing to boot into the USB! < 1284943189 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, 1 running < 1284943193 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: ps -A < 1284943200 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :308 total < 1284943206 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-.- ubuntu < 1284943216 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should boot from CD? But then, if Ubuntu, there's even more delay installing ddrescuee < 1284943218 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with apache stack < 1284943226 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n'shit < 1284943235 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION turns off nested paging in VirtualBox
< 1284943266 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Help me! < 1284943275 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: Hi. < 1284943285 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope, that didn't do it. < 1284943287 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boot from CD. < 1284943325 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shall try qemu
< 1284943344 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that could only have resulted in more damage to the hd < 1284943345 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on TV program "I've Got a Secret": [[GSN ran a revival from April 17 to June 9, 2006 with an all-gay panel.]] < 1284943350 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Putting in CD now < 1284943358 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Let's revive 'I've Got a Secret'... but with GAY." < 1284943385 0 :EOF!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1284943386 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many virtualboxen can one nest on a reasonable system before losing interactivity in the inner containers? < 1284943387 0 :EOF!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1284943406 0 :EOF!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a few < 1284943410 0 :EOF!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what OSes < 1284943451 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: With the virtualisation extensions, "a lot". < 1284943577 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finally found the Ubuntu CD < 1284943579 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1284943597 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the comp justsied < 1284943600 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Died < 1284943611 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:50:37 We'll be right with some things, but wrong with many, many more. < 1284943621 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why the Singularity is defined at precisely the point where we have no fucking idea what will happen < 1284943633 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(by definition, when a seed AI surpasses human intelligence) < 1284943664 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think a lot of our guesses are ace though < 1284943673 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have the external mount < 1284943680 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The HD is inside the cokputee < 1284943682 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AI-controlled super-economies moving at the speed of light < 1284943688 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :qemu is rather slow without virtualisation extensions. And I'm too lazy to get KVM set up. < 1284943691 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that involves rebooting) < 1284943698 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :humans becoming happy complacent pawns in a machine they don't understand < 1284943700 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'll be great < 1284943730 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll need to install ddrescue < 1284943730 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, this may actually be *too slow*. < 1284943764 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which requires putting in the wireless password, which requires x, unless you can give me a tutorial right now about doing that from the commandline < 1284943814 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alise, any lightning fast tutorial? < 1284943820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: Of? < 1284943824 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: New kernel! < 1284943839 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Connecting to wifi from commandline < 1284943846 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: Plug in an Ethernet cable. < 1284943853 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :N/m < 1284943859 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is basically impossible to do without a graphical tool. < 1284943912 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This things ability to boot from USB is sporadic at beat < 1284943941 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you mean 0 matching items??????? < 1284943943 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: You have no idea what parts of the disk are valuable, right? < 1284943957 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :package is "ddrescue" < 1284943978 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: economies? < 1284943979 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whataoctwareaour e < 1284943981 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a post-scarce world? Why? < 1284943986 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What software source? < 1284943988 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*post-scarcity? < 1284944003 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: Wait, it may actually be gone. < 1284944004 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope. < 1284944008 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :universe < 1284944038 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: How old is the drive? < 1284944043 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: post-scarcity? wtf? there are always limitations on material, and a lot of material will be needed to fuel the AI overlords' need for memory and compute power < 1284944044 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1284944055 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From 2006 or so < 1284944069 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: The AI can sustain itself; nobody else needs those resources. < 1284944076 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ubuntu is set to spin down disks when unneeded. Wait, no it's not < 1284944089 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: are you assuming a single AI? < 1284944103 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: That is the only possible outcome. < 1284944114 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think even a single AI, sufficiently distributed, would compete with itself for resources < 1284944133 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there are two Friendly AIs, they will merge. If there are two un-Friendly AIs, we're fucked anyway. If there is a Friendly AI and an un-Friendly AI, whichever started first or improved faster wins. < 1284944144 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After an AI has established power, it will be able to prevent another AI from being created. < 1284944154 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: Is it installed? < 1284944156 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh < 1284944163 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ddrescue is not autocompleting < 1284944172 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: This is more important first. < 1284944176 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: What media are you going to back up to? < 1284944176 0 :EOF!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1284944178 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, do I really want DD_rescue? < 1284944178 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: what if friendly AIs get lonely not having other higher intelligences to philosophize with? < 1284944181 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1284944183 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You really want ddrescue. < 1284944184 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :External hd < 1284944186 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You really, really want ddrescue. < 1284944187 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :File on < 1284944190 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: It is big enough, right? < 1284944203 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And not _ ? Ok < 1284944206 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1284944210 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: You are anthropomorphising. There is no reason an AI would have any desire to do those things. < 1284944219 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: Mount the external HD. DO NOT MOUNT THE BROKEN HD. < 1284944253 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: dd_rescue != ddrescue, btw < 1284944255 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-173-201-34.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1284944257 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm assuming we're using GNU ddrescue here. < 1284944262 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gddrescue then < 1284944276 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever. < 1284944283 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-n to get the easy stuff, -r3 for the rest, right? < 1284944286 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: Am I right in thinking you have no idea where the valuable stuff is? < 1284944289 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, I'm trying to help you here. < 1284944298 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, are you in the mounted external HD? < 1284944311 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1 < 1284944318 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you are deanthropomorphizing, there is no reason a human-created AI wouldn't have those tendencies grandfathered in < 1284944328 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Physically, or directorywise? < 1284944334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Coding an AI to feel loneliness would be a near-fatal mistake. < 1284944339 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, in general, there is no reason an AI would NOT have those desires < 1284944340 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it would certainly not be Friendly. < 1284944342 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: Directorywise. < 1284944351 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have some idea < 1284944351 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Please read "Creating Friendly AI". Thanks. < 1284944356 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: What? < 1284944368 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it's long. ijust started but i don't have time tonight < 1284944378 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Documents and Settings, and one or two files in the root, I think < 1284944388 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CWEB treats words like "elif" which are preprocessor commands as reserved words, but are they reserved words? < 1284944390 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Well, your opinion about loneliness is very wrong. I suggest finishing CFAI :P < 1284944402 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: That's not helpful; you need to know sectors and shit. Okay, right, so, cd into the external HD. < 1284944405 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in any case, there are other reasons an AI might want multiple versions of itself, or independent copies simultaneously running competing for resources etc. < 1284944421 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You said directorywise < 1284944423 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok < 1284944431 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: I meant directorywise as far as cding. < 1284944437 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1284944439 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: Okay, so, < 1284944443 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :loneliness was a stupid way of putting it. i was simplifying an uber-intelligences motivations for a human audience < 1284944446 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: It is partitioned, right? The rescuable disk. < 1284944457 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: Or not? < 1284944457 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I know what to do < 1284944461 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I guess not. < 1284944466 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: Erm, let's stick to the plan here. < 1284944468 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ddrescue -n oldhd imgfile logfile < 1284944469 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could permanently break your disk. < 1284944480 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: It is sda, right? < 1284944481 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The drive? < 1284944492 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: ... < 1284944502 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ddrescue -r3 Oldfield mewing logfile < 1284944503 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rifht < 1284944504 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With a semicolon in betweeen? < 1284944505 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1284944512 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: Please answer my question. < 1284944518 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure < 1284944522 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hold on < 1284944523 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ls /dev/sd* < 1284944529 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Run that, please. < 1284944532 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to know if it's partitioned. < 1284944583 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: ? < 1284944592 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Crap < 1284944598 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I typed stuff in, dammit < 1284944600 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*CLAP CLAP CLAP* < 1284944609 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant into irc < 1284944612 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1284944635 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : /Dev/sda1 /Dev/sea /Dev/sda4 < 1284944651 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sda < 1284944655 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o_O < 1284944661 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, let's just rescue the entire thing. < 1284944664 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your partition table looks fucked. < 1284944665 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait a sec. < 1284944667 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ^ < 1284944670 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just checking pikhq agrees. < 1284944680 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's wrong with the ddrescue commands I typed? < 1284944695 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, definitely don't run them automatically after another, and the latter one is wrong. < 1284944698 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you just be patient? < 1284944698 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your partition table looks weird. < 1284944701 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1284944704 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: So let's just rescue the whole disk? < 1284944705 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's *valid* but weird. < 1284944708 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not the individual partitions. < 1284944710 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I'd say "yeah". < 1284944711 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, he has dropped the thing. < 1284944718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: Okay, type this very precisely and hit enter: < 1284944719 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See what ddrescue gets. < 1284944729 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sudo ddrescue --no-split /dev/sda imagefile logfile < 1284944733 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Veeery precisely. < 1284944745 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It will flag up a ton of errors, I bet. < 1284944747 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's fine. < 1284944757 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't put the euro in < 1284944761 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'm at a root prompt < 1284944768 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sudo < 1284944785 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doit. < 1284944789 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1284944796 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1284944799 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i < 1284944800 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: Euro? < 1284944804 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, do it. < 1284944808 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'ma have to leave now or forever hold my lameness < 1284944814 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: wat < 1284944818 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gypped sudo < 1284944823 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have work to do < 1284944829 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :need to not procrastinate anymore < 1284944890 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: Is it going? < 1284944905 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's doing stuff < 1284944905 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And errors are coming up < 1284944908 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good. < 1284944922 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Expected. < 1284944931 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How long will this take? < 1284944942 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anywhere from hours to days. < 1284944955 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a function of how fucked up the drive is. < 1284944972 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok then. What do I do when it's done? What was wrong with NY second command? < 1284944973 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: And now, BOOKMARK THIS URL IN YOUR MOBILE BROWSER: < 1284944974 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/1169085.txt?key=cmgt84evfis2qjczs7cg < 1284944982 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has all the instructions for after that, very precisely written out. < 1284945005 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This will get you a drive in your hand that has your old drive on it. < 1284945007 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1284945063 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except with more of the data readily accessible. < 1284945070 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can I proceed to use Ubuntu normally in the meantime? < 1284945101 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1284945108 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1284945119 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No Vorpal here? < 1284945125 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, sleeping < 1284945145 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yes, just don't touch the drive. < 1284945147 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and if you ever need to restart the job, just rerun the ddrescue command. It'll pick up from where it left off. < 1284945147 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1284945151 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1. < 1284945154 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What pikhq said. < 1284945157 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's not how you deal with errors. < 1284945169 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: Type this URL in your Ubuntu browser very carefully then put it on the desktop or whatever so you don't lose it: < 1284945172 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it's just how you deal with "I need to shut off my computer". < 1284945173 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/1169085.txt?key=cmgt84evfis2qjczs7cg < 1284945177 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want a shorter URL i can get that. < 1284945187 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: < 1284945192 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://bit.ly/bmW8YW < 1284945194 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PUT THIS ON YOUR DESKTOP. < 1284945214 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's wrong with leaving it on the phone? < 1284945259 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: Well, that works too. < 1284945266 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just thought it'd be easier to copy-and-paste from the main machine. < 1284945459 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1656 kB/s < 1284945482 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is going to take a while, isn't it? < 1284945565 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: How big is the drive? < 1284945574 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :100GB < 1284945607 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: 17.59 hours. < 1284945613 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: I assume it's still spewing errors? < 1284945623 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep < 1284945627 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: If so, then that won't be the end of it, since you'll still have the second and maybe even the third command to run. < 1284945632 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you might even have to increase the retries on that. < 1284945634 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the average speed keeps going down < 1284945647 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: You can, as pikhq said, just terminate it and continue it later using *exactly the same* command. < 1284945653 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Check the logs if you do so do get it exact.) < 1284945666 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Might be prudent to overnight it, though. < 1284945671 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: How big's the external drive? < 1284945699 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, I can keep using the computer while it goes, so what's the problem? Just don't take the computer on my lap < 1284945706 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :250GB < 1284945773 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: Will you be awake in 17 hours? < 1284945782 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1284945784 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, yeah, keep the computer SEATED AT A TABLE FOREVER. < 1284945787 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably not < 1284945872 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i have an idea < 1284945882 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's stop enforcing Graue's ludicrous category policy < 1284945886 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1284945937 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is having Ubuntus thing to spin down disks when posssble acceptable? < 1284946007 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION swats alise -----###
< 1284946022 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: well, hey, it's an idea. < 1284946027 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: don't worry. that disk will never get spun down. < 1284946033 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it being spinned down is good < 1284946050 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: given how annoying i just found out it was _renaming_ a category, let's not < 1284946099 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to have access to a VMS system < 1284946222 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any ideas on what I can do to explore it? < 1284946271 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Average rate went down to 707 < 1284946279 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :683 < 1284946402 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: you might try the help command < 1284946441 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION recalls it was wonderfully hierarchical
< 1284946488 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For all I know, this is what runs the school's main ... styff < 1284946501 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Bye < 1284946524 0 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1284946550 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it even included individual commands for some programming languages < 1284946568 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cobol < 1284946602 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION recalls there was a lisp
< 1284946619 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :568 < 1284946689 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :538 < 1284946753 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it was pascal that had the individual command thing < 1284946758 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is going to take a very long time, isn't it? < 1284947400 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Sweden is screwed < 1284947729 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :About 3 and a half days < 1284947792 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most of the data I don't honestly care about < 1284947812 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any way to, say, use TestDisk and just take only what I really care about? < 1284947965 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maaybe. I'd just do this. < 1284948018 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if my professor would be ok with me not bringing my laptop in on Monday < 1284948027 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can still do work from my phone < 1284948135 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the average goes down to 3.3 KB/s or so, may I give up? < 1284948180 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow. It is estimated the LSD of marijuana is 1500 *pounds*. < 1284948188 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1284948191 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LD50 < 1284948194 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not LSD < 1284948199 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Amusing slip there. < 1284948201 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FREUD! < 1284948261 0 :alise_!~alise@91.105.70.176 JOIN :#esoteric < 1284948343 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so basically it's lethal only by crushing the victim? < 1284948360 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Or via carbon monoxide. < 1284948369 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Afaict, so far, 99.5% of the data is being saved < 1284948373 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Bye < 1284948384 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes, suffocation < 1284948396 0 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1284948426 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1284948467 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1284948486 0 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1284948669 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :goodnight < 1284948669 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1284948670 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1284948689 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Awesome. Ubuntu thinks it's Puppy Linux < 1284948689 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With Flash crashing every two seconds < 1284948689 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Night alise < 1284948717 0 :iamcal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1284948743 0 :augur!~augur@208-59-167-26.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1284948780 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4.3 days < 1284948808 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1284948814 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@209.59.220.33 JOIN :#esoteric < 1284948967 0 :SgeoN2!~AndChat@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1284948968 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1284948975 0 :cal153!~cal@c-24-4-207-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1284949506 0 :SgeoN2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1284949666 0 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@32.166.11.124 JOIN :#esoteric < 1284949741 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How long a wait is too long? < 1284949767 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :42 years < 1284949782 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It occurs to me that I have an ancient computer that I could devote to the task < 1284949786 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two, actually < 1284949879 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You forgot the rule of two and a half < 1284949887 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1284950232 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And also the rule of five!! < 1284950762 0 :tswett!~Warrigal@arch06.cis.gvsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1284950770 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who invented kilgame? Was it lament? < 1284950796 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION thought he hadn't seen warrigal for a while
< 1284950804 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi, oerjan. < 1284950810 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I don't think you've seen me for a while. < 1284950811 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, what's kilgame < 1284950848 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kilgame was this IRC game where you had a "kill" command so that you could shoot people, and you can only shoot once every 60 seconds, and once you're shot by two different people you're out of the game. < 1284950888 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION doesn't recall ever seeing it
< 1284950962 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly you are an evil tswett from an alternate dimension < 1284950974 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, definitely not! < 1284950988 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you _would_ say that < 1284951001 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would I do such a thing? < 1284951010 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't believe you'd accuse me of this. < 1284951049 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well since kilgame doesn't exist in this universe (although there are other games by the same name), that is the only reasonable explanation. < 1284951100 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact ""kilgame" irc" gives _no_ google hits < 1284951116 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(nor does ""kilgame" site:tunes.org") < 1284951167 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" oklopol: I see you've managed to get #kilbot." < 1284951184 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was... whatever day 07.07.06 is. < 1284951202 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WB warrihal < 1284951204 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Warrigal < 1284951210 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi Sheo. < 1284951213 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>.> < 1284951217 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assuming it is you... < 1284951223 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep, it's me. < 1284951244 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm connected from arch06.cis.gvsu.edu; who else could it be? < 1284951246 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is close to falling asleep
< 1284951258 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A hallucinogen < 1284951279 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brought about by lack of restfulbsleep < 1284951283 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Being close to falling asleep is a fun hallucinogen. < 1284951309 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION attempts to determine oklopol's real name.
< 1284951313 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If Agora doesn't know, nobody knows. < 1284951317 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm in a pizza place < 1284951325 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I want to just take a nap < 1284951384 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: ok that does help your case somewhat < 1284951399 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION still has onokki somewhere
< 1284951417 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course i haven't really deleted anything since then, so not surprising < 1284951661 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: see msg (he doesn't really want it in the open iirc) < 1284951927 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is currently projected to take 7.5 weeks..... < 1284951966 0 :SgeoN2!~AndChat@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1284951971 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: you should start getting _really_ worried when it says INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR MEANINGFUL ANSWER < 1284951978 0 :SgeoN2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, 7 weeks and half a day < 1284951996 0 :SgeoN2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lol < 1284952035 0 :augur!~augur@208-59-167-26.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1284952039 0 :SgeoN2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The guiding motive for the Singularity AI is recovering my data < 1284952181 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1284952329 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1284952385 0 :SgeoN2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the speed at all a function of other stuff that I'm doing with the computer? < 1284952438 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it just senses your fear of it stalling < 1284952498 0 :SgeoN2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm more afraid of it taking years < 1284952514 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THEN THAT'S WHAT IT WILL DO < 1284952631 0 :SgeoN2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :flash keeps crashing < 1284952641 0 :SgeoN2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if it's an old version < 1284952668 0 :SgeoN2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e. whatever Puppy Linux ships with < 1284952754 0 :SgeoN2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's fun to crash in Sgeo's face! Come on just do segfault; crash in Sgeo's face < 1284952772 0 :SgeoN2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, it's the newest version < 1284952959 0 :SgeoN2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now that I closed a bunch of stuff, it's speedinbhp < 1284952998 0 :SgeoN2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tremendously < 1284953082 0 :SgeoN2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can just Ctrl-C this, right? < 1284953083 0 :SgeoN2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Bye < 1284953117 0 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1284953130 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I appear to be unable to end it < 1284953143 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There we go < 1284953189 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ddrescue --no-split /dev/sda imagefile logfile < 1284953260 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh look, everything works now < 1284953284 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ill reissue the command before I go to sleep < 1284953296 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a way to be certain that the HD is spun down? < 1284953319 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any easy way to check? < 1284953347 0 :calamari-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can smartmon tell you? < 1284953400 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Command not found < 1284953454 0 :calamari-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I was expecting you to look into it a bit more than issuing a command lol < 1284953471 0 :calamari-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the package is smartmontools < 1284953491 0 :calamari-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :checking < 1284953608 0 :calamari-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, smartmontools is only for ata < 1284953614 0 :calamari-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not for sat < 1284953617 0 :calamari-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sata < 1284954309 0 :calamari-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: sudo hdparm -C /dev/sda < 1284954378 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :active/idle < 1284954398 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I take it that that is not, in fact, spun down? < 1284954411 0 :Quadlex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey eso < 1284954423 0 :calamari-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah probably not < 1284954442 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um. I think ill take the HD out then just set up my old comp < 1284954445 0 :calamari-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do a -B 1 to have aggressive power saving < 1284954479 0 :calamari-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Check the current IDE power mode status, which will always be < 1284954479 0 :calamari-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : one of unknown (drive does not support this command), < 1284954479 0 :calamari-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : active/idle (normal operation), standby (low power mode, drive < 1284954479 0 :calamari-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : has spun down), or sleeping (lowest power mode, drive is com‐ < 1284954479 0 :calamari-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : pletely shut down). The -S, -y, -Y, and -Z flags can be used to < 1284954480 0 :calamari-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : manipulate the IDE power modes. < 1284954489 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The reason I want it spun down is to avoid damaging it further < 1284954514 0 :calamari-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you might as well unplug it < 1284954615 0 :calamari-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries -Y just for the hell of it
< 1284954691 0 :calamari-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it worked, but since the machine is probably writing tothe drive all the time, it just powered back up immediately.. cool tho < 1284954762 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This thing will boot from USB only when it wants to < 1284954961 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't figure out why it wont boot < 1284954982 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a way to have the Ubuntu LiveCD check the USB for data files < 1284955532 0 :augur!~augur@208-59-167-26.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1284955825 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1284956087 0 :augur!~augur@208-59-167-26.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1284956394 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1284956622 0 :augur!~augur@208-59-167-26.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1284956908 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like the \outer command < 1284956956 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1284956971 0 :trinithis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.thathigh.com/story/2776983/ < 1284957122 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something I found out about TeX, is that the \csname command will cause the named control sequence to be equivalent to \relax is that control sequence is currently undefined. < 1284957412 0 :augur!~augur@208-59-167-26.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1284957518 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1284957599 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What the fuck? < 1284957611 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How is it almost Monday already? < 1284957627 0 :trinithis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very carefully. < 1284957637 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean "almost", you bloody american < 1284957676 0 :trinithis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3:20 hours left < 1284957679 0 :trinithis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :till mon < 1284957700 0 :trinithis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1284957700 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1284957721 0 :trinithis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if augur can forsee his own quitting
< 1284957727 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The fricking fuck. It felt like Friday or Saturday < 1284957785 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had hoped to take a shower on the wekend, (no hot water in this house) < 1284957812 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know I'd I even have clean clothing < 1284957815 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bibble < 1284957904 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sio < 1284958281 0 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1284958942 0 :augur!~augur@208-59-167-26.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1284958985 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1284959310 0 :bsmntbombdood_!~gavin@97-124-203-86.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1284959320 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do I see what processes are using a filesystem? < 1284959452 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :N/m < 1284959491 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1284959656 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wuzzup? < 1284959776 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, Sgeo is discovering the magic of lsof < 1284959790 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also use it to find who's listening on which port you know < 1284960203 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have idea, of a new programming language with similar use as C, but different syntax, and that takes things from: TeX, C, Forth, WEB, and assembler. < 1284960230 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :explain plox < 1284960267 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From C: Data types, structures, preprocessor macros, preprocessor include, unions, pointers, function pointers, storage classes, arrays. < 1284960291 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From TeX: Category codes (and the ability to change them during compile time), and penalties (which you can insert anywhere in the program). < 1284960344 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From Forth: reverse polish notation, immediate words, ability to create new control structures like Forth, ability to create parsers for reading a few extra words after a command. < 1284960393 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does casper-rw not work anymore? < 1284960395 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, and also explicit command to tell it you want to retrieve the value of a variable, by writing @ sign after the address (or name of variable, or something else). < 1284960503 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From assembly language: Ability to enter direct CPU instructions/registers/etc, and things close to it but that might be more cross-platform. < 1284960524 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1284960646 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the goal to produce something really usable? < 1284960766 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Yes it would be usable. < 1284960785 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it would also have commands to have a lot of control over the optimizer and other things if needed. < 1284960847 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could be interesting < 1284961643 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When programming in TeX, I often find it useful to change category codes in the middle of the file, sometimes conditionally. < 1284961668 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i, uh, just use the conference-provided templates >.> < 1284961692 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: What conference-provided templates? < 1284961728 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends on the conference/journal < 1284961738 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NIPS has a pretty nice one < 1284961750 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :APA use the same one for all their journals i think < 1284961752 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AMS too < 1284961791 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. I don't write TeX documents for conferences or journals, I write them for myself, so I just use Plain TeX, and then add whatever macros and other things are needed for the file I am writing. < 1284961821 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like to use LaTeX, because I prefer Plain TeX. < 1284961882 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sometimes find it very useful to change category codes temporarily for use with the \read and \write commands, and sometimes have a file include itself. < 1284961922 0 :mycroftiv!~ircguy@h69-128-47-242.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1284961942 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the minimum one would need to do to make plain TeX turing-complete? < 1284961971 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :add a brainfuck eval() via an escape sequence < 1284961984 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe thats not the type of answer you were looking for though < 1284962015 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems like far too much to add < 1284962027 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the thing you are adding is turing-complete in itself < 1284962038 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its a deliberately degenerate solution < 1284962063 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: TeX is turing complete. You just have to know how to program it! < 1284962068 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sweet! < 1284962072 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how? < 1284962093 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :postscript is turing complete also, isnt it? < 1284962240 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could write a brainfuck interpreter in TeX, or other things, if I wanted to. You can also see the yesweb codes for an example of a full program in TeX. < 1284962280 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/BYYJ < 1284962324 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is yesweb supposed to do? < 1284962331 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This program shows a lot of techniques of programming in TeX. < 1284962390 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here is an example file using yesweb: http://sprunge.us/aADQ < 1284962419 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This example file generates two things: a printed document, and a C source code file. < 1284962448 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: Yes, Postscript is < 1284962451 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TC < 1284962464 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i recall a cute story from a friend who had a job doing university IT < 1284962487 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is yesweb some kind of macro system built on top of TeX? < 1284962492 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some clever comp sci student decided to print out tickets to some event that had a lot of algorithmically generated using postscript < 1284962504 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually this example file generates a printed document and two C source files, "hello.c" and "goodbye.c". < 1284962516 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Yes, yesweb is a kind of macro system built on top of TeX. < 1284962525 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the IT lab printer seemed to be 'frozen' for hours and then suddenly came to life printing out tickets where each ticket had a huge amount of unique data procedurally generated < 1284962528 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is implemented entirely in TeX. < 1284962682 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does a few strange things, such as temporarily making the lowercase "n" into a comment character (like "%" is normally). < 1284962701 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird < 1284962767 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The stuff between \z and @z is verbatim text, everything there treats all characters as normal characters. < 1284962829 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The exception is the \webescape character, which must be doubled if you want to include that character verbatim. (Normally an at sign, but it can be changed using the \webescape command.) < 1284962875 0 :bsmntbombdood_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1284962914 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does looping work? < 1284962968 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The stuff in between \z and @z will be printed in monospace text with a border around it, and will also be copied to the output files (which in this case have the ".c" extension, but they don't have to be C codes, they can be any text files). < 1284962971 0 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1284962978 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looping works in TeX using the \loop ... \repeat commands. < 1284963017 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can have like \loop\ABC\iftrue\XYZ\repeat so you can have codes both before and after the condition. < 1284963099 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is how you can do loops in TeX. < 1284963139 0 :sftp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1284963383 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You might like to know that loops are not built-in to primitive TeX. Plain TeX is a macro package implemented in primitive TeX, and Plain TeX defines the commands for loops. < 1284963601 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but Plain TeX is written entirely in TeX? < 1284963772 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1284963784 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the macros that TeX ships with to make it at least *somewhat* usable. < 1284963798 0 :bsmntbombdood_!~gavin@97-124-203-86.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1284964038 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://stashbox.org/729975/nooooo.jpg < 1284964058 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oooooblubblub...blub < 1284964067 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Primitive Tex doesn't have loops but loops can be made in it? Is this similar to if else then not being builtin to Forth? < 1284964172 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: Very much so. < 1284965065 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: Yes, like that. < 1284965091 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Some Forth systems do have IF ELSE THEN built-in, others do not. In the ones that do not, you can implement them.) < 1284965554 0 :augur!~augur@208-58-6-161.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1284965883 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMtZfW2z9dw < 1284966002 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1284966150 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yesweb contains various strange things, but it is how TeX works. It changes category codes a lot, changes output routines, has macros that redefine themself and other macros, macros that call themself, macros that define macros that define macros that define other macros, the \expandafter command and \csname commands are used a bunch of times..... < 1284966171 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I find the \expandafter and \csname commands useful when using TeX. < 1284966201 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How often do *you* use those commands? < 1284966408 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Vorpal: you awake? <-- morning < 1284966412 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1, ^ < 1284966462 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, never I think < 1284966472 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, never used them in LaTeX < 1284966484 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and I don't use plain text directly) < 1284966488 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plain tex* < 1284966583 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: OK. But I must say I find Plain TeX *much* better than LaTeX. I also find LaTeX bloated and stuff. < 1284966646 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh, sleep now < 1284966669 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I wanted to ask something about the HD issue < 1284966695 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But right now, it's again out of the comp, will be using old computer to do the stuff < 1284966701 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ninight < 1284966703 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Bye < 1284966917 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1284966919 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: zzo38 < 1284968080 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1284968889 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a free market communist < 1284968986 0 :Sgeo!~ubuntu@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1284969005 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1284969034 0 :Sgeo!~ubuntu@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1284969039 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1284969599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1284969600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1284969697 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1284969716 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Ex-Chat < 1284969754 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: swatted to death < 1284970021 0 :bsmntbombdood_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1284970646 0 :cheater99!~cheater@ip-80-226-229-237.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1284971006 0 :calamari-!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1284971056 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1284971567 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1284972706 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1284973678 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1284973689 0 :augur!~augur@208-58-6-161.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1284973865 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:47:01 which is why the Singularity is defined at precisely the point where we have no fucking idea what will happen ← true, but you presuppose many things about it which aren't as certain as made out. < 1284974127 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1284974417 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1284974678 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1284976960 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoa, why hadn't I seen the awesomeity of http://www.visual6502.org/JSSim/index.html before? (Caution: is probably not the fastest thing ever if you actually want to run something.) < 1284977181 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1284978131 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl29-2-0-cust326.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1284982506 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1284982606 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl29-2-0-cust326.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1284982801 0 :atrapado!~ro@193.144.79.241 JOIN :#esoteric < 1284983037 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1284983734 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, here are typical sentences from alise and Vorpal: < 1284983736 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>>> str(h_a.sampleSingle(50)) < 1284983736 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'celt fstuooslk cikmwpe boaa,stblgcneinn, Ahu-onrts' < 1284983736 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>>> str(h_v.sampleSingle(50)) < 1284983736 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"olsbioa1ce btkdus aeae boeee fh rie> w)ne 2n'l wec" < 1284983883 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To what end are you doing this? < 1284984151 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why, for fun, of course. < 1284984700 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To make alisebot? < 1284984770 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, for classificationary purposes. < 1284984780 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though it doesn't work really *that* well. < 1284984898 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whom do you plan to classify? < 1284984902 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those same h_a/h_v models that generated that nonsense up there classified 61% of alise-comments as alise, and 71% of Vorpal-comments as Vorpal; that's not very much better than random chance. But at least it does something sensible for a single comment, unlike the book-authorship statistics, which need bazillion lines before they can make any sort of sensible decisions at all. < 1284984995 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could try with a lot larger models, there's certainly enough training data. Those were 14-state discrete-emission HMM's with this sort of constrained structure -- http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/hmm.png -- and initial transition probs; and uniform-distribution emissions in each state before training. < 1284985018 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the "Ahu-onrts" bit, though. < 1284988849 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1284988931 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1284989100 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is living in the future so boring?? < 1284989125 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, you would have thought someone would have made some kind of jetpack, but noooooo. < 1284989281 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1284989501 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1284989515 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: What do you mean they haven't made jetpacks? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jetpack -- "Jet pack T-73, flight time 9 minutes, max distance 11 miles, ~83 mph, $200,000 incl. training". < 1284989631 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Not that they actually sell one anywhere, but still.) < 1284989675 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay! < 1284989739 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, where's the moon base? < 1284989770 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the moon? < 1284989776 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(What a silly question.) < 1284989989 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1284990161 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1284990216 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, where on the moon? < 1284990233 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They don't tell that sort of info to us civilians. < 1284990707 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1284990942 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well, launching a mission to the moon is hardly low-key. < 1284990992 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ticket To The Moon. < 1284991091 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1284991259 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION → walk
< 1284991296 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Walk To The Moon? < 1284991506 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1284991647 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1284992161 0 :nooga!~nooga@194.116.253.238 JOIN :#esoteric < 1284992178 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gagag < 1284993892 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1284995698 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1284995811 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1284995821 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1284996334 0 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.50.208 JOIN :#esoteric < 1284996427 0 :Sgeo!~ubuntu@137.125.185.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1284996665 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just did my laundry, feels good < 1284996678 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that means i can program a washing machine! < 1284996862 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aww < 1284996873 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XChat-GNOME doesn't automatically set me away when I go away from the thingy < 1284996945 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1284996949 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOD DAMMIT JOSIAH STOP SNEEZING. I WANT COFFEE < 1284996988 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1284997488 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq has jumped the sneeze < 1284998076 0 :webquint!8fd77d0b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.143.215.125.11 JOIN :#esoteric < 1284998126 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-2-137.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1284998226 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1284999172 0 :Sgeo!~ubuntu@137.125.185.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1284999189 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :&fsckperl < 1284999210 0 :alise!~alise@91.105.70.176 JOIN :#esoteric < 1284999270 0 :augur_!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1284999276 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1284999319 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well motherfucking hell. My car battery died. < 1284999339 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll have to wait for parents to get home so I can actually get a new one. < 1284999352 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My battery car died. < 1284999357 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I can't drive my battery to places. < 1284999372 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm missing a test today. Here's hoping my prof. lets me do the test at a later date. < 1284999372 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Any luck with NixOS? I have the LiveCD working on USB. < 1284999376 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I can install it, theoretically. < 1284999382 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I've got it installed in a VM. < 1284999387 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not done anything with it, though. < 1284999389 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: How boring. < 1284999395 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The solution to all my problems was to use qemu. < 1284999416 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: With qemu, it runs unbelievably slowly for me. < 1284999421 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you have virtualisation support. < 1284999448 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:03:00 Wow. It is estimated the LSD of marijuana is 1500 *pounds*. < 1284999449 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This class is _far_ more convenient to do with Ubuntu than Windows < 1284999454 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most confusing phrase EVER. < 1284999463 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Everything is etc. < 1284999464 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yeah, I've got it using KVM. < 1284999466 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1284999472 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Fuck you and your good hardware >:( < 1284999480 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: You could use kqemu. < 1284999483 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Can I have your virtualisation module to plug into my processor? < 1284999486 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: kqemu no longer exists. < 1284999492 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Because fuck you." < 1284999500 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait what? < 1284999500 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, Gentoo must be patching its qemu, then. < 1284999507 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What happened to kqemu? < 1284999511 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Deprecated. < 1284999514 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Apparently KVM. < 1284999517 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not on the site any more, not in the latest release. < 1284999519 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, what pikhq said. < 1284999523 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which requires virtualisation support. < 1284999531 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because my life is worthlooooh, it can use Xen. < 1284999534 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does Perl have first-class functions? < 1284999538 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can Xen do stuff without virtualisation support? < 1284999538 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Yes. < 1284999541 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :&foo < 1284999549 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, wait. < 1284999550 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1284999552 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, yes. < 1284999553 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My professor didn't seem to understand what I was asking when I said "store subroutine in a variable" < 1284999554 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But not like that. < 1284999555 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ask ais523. < 1284999564 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: well that's a stupid way of putting it :) < 1284999576 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Get a reference to a subroutine". < 1284999584 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: it has first-class references to subroutines < 1284999598 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can store those in variables < 1284999617 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what's the syntax? < 1284999619 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not &foo < 1284999623 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and as subroutines are read-only (although you can create the things dynamically using lambdas), a reference to a subroutine is equivalent to the subroutine itself, except in terms of syntax < 1284999624 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*foo? < 1284999626 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and \&foo < 1284999628 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh < 1284999631 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a reference to subroutine foo < 1284999637 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like \$foo would be a reference to scalar foo < 1284999638 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: not \foo because that's sort of ambiguous, right? < 1284999645 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's more meaningless than ambiguous < 1284999650 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because foo() is just shorthand for &foo(), right? < 1284999658 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it passes arguments differently < 1284999674 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's more than just whether you can do it before or after being defined? < 1284999677 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION headaches
< 1284999679 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :old-fashioned subroutine call: @_ = ("arg1, "arg2"); &foo; < 1284999687 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :new subroutine cal: foo("arg1","arg2") < 1284999691 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*call < 1284999694 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Heh, here are typical sentences from alise and Vorpal: < 1284999694 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : >>> str(h_a.sampleSingle(50)) < 1284999694 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 'celt fstuooslk cikmwpe boaa,stblgcneinn, Ahu-onrts' < 1284999694 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : >>> str(h_v.sampleSingle(50)) < 1284999694 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "olsbioa1ce btkdus aeae boeee fh rie> w)ne 2n'l wec" < 1284999696 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err? < 1284999699 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think she's showing us old-fashioned < 1284999700 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and @_ is managed for you, it even restores the original value < 1284999706 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, wait < 1284999713 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : old-fashioned subroutine call: @_ = ("arg1, "arg2"); &foo; < 1284999718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely even old perl didn't make you do that < 1284999721 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, just old-fashioned using it, not old-fashioned subroutine call < 1284999723 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yes, it did < 1284999727 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: :-D < 1284999732 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, using @_ may have just been convention < 1284999744 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : DB<1> @_ = ("Hello, world!\n"); &print; < 1284999745 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Undefined subroutine &main::print called at (eval 6)[/usr/share/perl/5.10/perl5db.pl:638] line 2. < 1284999747 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bah. < 1284999749 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How racist. < 1284999751 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :print isn't a subroutine < 1284999754 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know. < 1284999755 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How racist. < 1284999756 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a builtin function < 1284999758 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :augur < 1284999768 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of all the days, I had to miss class on the day of a test. < 1284999771 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Old-fashioned use of @_ within the body < 1284999774 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: would NixOS paravirtualise properly? < 1284999779 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: also, no public transport? < 1284999780 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even more fun, you had to scope @_ yourself < 1284999783 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: err < 1284999786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not old-fashioned < 1284999787 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It's the US. < 1284999791 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's how you do arguments in perl < 1284999794 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it had a rather useful "local" keyword, which means "change the value now, restore it at the end of the block" < 1284999799 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: lol @ your country sucks < 1284999804 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"local" still exists, but "my" is used more often, as it does actual scoping < 1284999808 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than just INTERCAL-style stashing < 1284999816 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, NixOS ought to paravirtualise properly. It's only the kernel that's involved in that. < 1284999824 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think Sgeo may need some therapy to realise that you manually shift @_ to do arguments in regular Perl. < 1284999834 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: How hellish is setting up Xen? < 1284999839 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not very. < 1284999849 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: well, it's very flexible < 1284999851 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It isn't only INTERCAL that stashes/retrieves variables in that way, dc also has a command to do something similar. < 1284999855 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds hellish to me. < 1284999856 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps more-so on not-Gentoo, though. < 1284999867 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you stick to conventions, it's just the same as normal argument passing < 1284999872 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd *imagine* the only painful bit would be setting up bridging. < 1284999875 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Nix's single-configuration-mechanism thing is /so cool/. < 1284999886 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'd *imagine* the only painful bit would be setting up bridging. ;; that's the thing, QEMU can use Xen < 1284999892 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sub foo {my $a = shift; my $b = shift;} < 1284999893 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somehow! < 1284999904 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tailcalls are done by setting up @_ by hand, then doing goto &foo; < 1284999911 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: heh < 1284999913 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but most people write < 1284999914 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: That's only for the virtualisation extensions. < 1284999916 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my ($a, $b) = @_; < 1284999918 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: osidjfoij < 1284999928 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: really? I haven't seen that very often < 1284999928 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Got a kqemu source package? < 1284999933 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: o_O < 1284999943 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I have never seen a single person manually shift every argument like you've written. < 1284999951 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have universally seen my ($args, $here) = @_; < 1284999956 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, =shift is standard in TAEB, and it has some of the sanest Perl code in existence < 1284999962 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Random example: http://www.cs.cf.ac.uk/Dave/PERL/node61.html < 1284999976 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Random example: http://automatthias.wordpress.com/2007/01/19/perl-argument-passing-weirdness/ < 1284999978 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :occasionally it refers to elements of @_ directly, when it needs extreme performence < 1284999982 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Hmm. Use qemu pre-0.9.1 and http://wiki.qemu.org/download/kqemu-1.3.0pre11.tar.gz . < 1284999988 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Random example: http://stuff.mit.edu/iap/perl/slides/sub_arguments.html (just one parameter, but still) < 1284999988 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*performance < 1285000011 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: if it even has functions it's not Ultra Clean Insane Perl ;-) < 1285000015 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(when it needs even /more/ extreme performance, it refers to the internals of objects in an encapsulation-breaking manner, but only once and with huge warnings in a comment next to it) < 1285000023 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You need MooseX::Declare for that, which has actual method signatures with names. < 1285000034 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Or just install it on real hardware... < 1285000070 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Alex Smith (ais523)" --TAEB blog. I thought you were still paranoid about that. < 1285000097 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It upsets me that TAEB plays Nethack better than I do. < 1285000109 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least with chess I can claim it's a genuinely very difficult game. < 1285000141 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: How far has Planar got? < 1285000150 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you say it gets into Sokoban, I presume it goes through the Mines first? < 1285000159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If not, HA HA I AM BETTER THAN TAEB < 1285000162 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: no, sorear and I were working on TAEB in parallel < 1285000172 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: err? < 1285000176 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he was working on a mines-completing version of the AI, I was working on a Sokoban-completing version < 1285000176 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant the name/nick association < 1285000178 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it never does both < 1285000180 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1285000185 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I'm guessing people have figured it by now < 1285000185 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: was < 1285000186 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1285000201 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: well, neither of us have worked on it for a while < 1285000207 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not sure how deep sortaeb523 ever got < 1285000209 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dormant? < 1285000225 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dormant, not abandoned < 1285000232 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dlvl 11, it sems < 1285000234 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(thanks Rodney!) < 1285000282 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Incidentally, Planar always asks for more information, if it’s available and doesn’t cost a turn, in order to analyse the situation as well as possible; for instance, if the material the golem was made of (relevant because it determines how dangerous it is) were undeducible from its colour on-screen, it would ask the framework to request NetHack to give more details, in this case by sending a farlook command to examine it remotely in detail." < 1285000283 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this automatic? < 1285000293 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Planar, yes; in TAEB, no < 1285000299 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd hide it all behind a VeryCleverNethackScreen interface < 1285000309 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where all information is available, just sometimes it has to request (and cache it) < 1285000318 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can pretend you have 4D vision, or something, and the depth tells you the farlook info < 1285000320 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1285000321 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3D < 1285000349 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I seem to remember that there was a huge flamewar on the subject a while ago < 1285000354 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o_O < 1285000355 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? < 1285000367 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :part of the reason is that some TAEB AIs are content with guesses < 1285000368 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Incidentally, Alt-F9 on NixOS has an inexplicable Rogue game always started. < 1285000376 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? Who knows, maybe they just like Rogue. < 1285000385 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: then they don't need to request the information < 1285000390 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, that's stupid < 1285000392 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :farlook isn't exactly cheating < 1285000410 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"taking the worst-case scenario; Planar is just as scared of the Random Number Generator as any human would be" < 1285000412 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it's not to do with cheating, it's to do with saving time < 1285000414 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps it should take risks upon occasion? < 1285000423 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: farlook doesn't take a turn or more than a few ms of realtime... < 1285000424 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone dislikes the "\$betty" that the professor is printing < 1285000432 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: TAEB's designed for online play < 1285000432 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And asks "Why not just print betty"? < 1285000439 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it takes a few hundred ms to farlook something < 1285000443 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: fail < 1285000445 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :over telnet < 1285000453 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: meh < 1285000464 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: a proper nethack server would send down all such information with the frame :) < 1285000469 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and have the local client display it upon request < 1285000493 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"nHackbot owned the (known) high mark for score and dungeon depth for quite some time, achieving a score 18,432 and maximum depth of 10." < 1285000498 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, presumably as far as bots go, not players < 1285000502 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1285000519 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1285000519 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Intrigued by nHackBot and itching to do something similar, Shawn Moore started nhbot in December 2005, using Perl. While nHackBot sought to eventually be a complete bot, nhbot had no such aspirations. It solved the screen parsing problem by not parsing the screen at all, opting instead to read just the top line. Rather than calculating where to move next, it walked around randomly. Eventually, it did gain the ability to read the bottom line in order to kno < 1285000519 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :w when to engrave Elbereth, but that was the extent of nhbot's sight. nhbot did remarkably well for being so near-sighted, posting a high score of 15,185. However, it did not descend very far, making it only to dungeon level 3." < 1285000523 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Top line as in the first one of the screen??? < 1285000525 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's usually blank < 1285000535 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it contains messages < 1285000539 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like "the jackal hits!" < 1285000541 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1285000544 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what a retarded bot < 1285000561 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"GreyKnight" -- /that/ GreyKnight? < 1285000578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, i don't know a greyknight < 1285000580 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thought i did < 1285000606 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I need a translator < 1285000626 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :She fails to understand what I'm saying. She thinks I had no clue what was going on, when I just wanted to point something out < 1285000645 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, heraldic ensignia of Agora? < 1285000658 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: not the same guy, he had a wikipedia page < 1285000667 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if it is him < 1285000670 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then he used to come here too < 1285000690 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait no < 1285000691 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is him < 1285000706 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(he'd changed his user page; I found the copy I remember in the history.) < 1285000837 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you use a reference? < 1285000851 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cleverly. < 1285000868 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that a joke, or are you trying to give me a nightmare, or... < 1285000870 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I hereby defer horrible Perl questions to ais523, the poor thing. Actually, scratch that; it'll just scare him off.) < 1285001021 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, nice that your typical line is "celt fstuooslk cikmwpe boaa,stblgcneinn, Ahu-onrts'". A bit of fine tuning and we could replace you with a bot! < 1285001052 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Ahu-onrts'! CELT FSTUOOSLK!!! < 1285001060 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, XD < 1285001091 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Translation: "Don't you EVER say that about my mother again, you [UNTRANSLATABLE] [UNTRANSLATABLE]!!!" < 1285001096 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I have but one reply to that: lsbioa1ce btkdus aeae boeee fh rie> w)ne 2n'l wec < 1285001120 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ææ *bœee < 1285001127 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Get your orthography right, you cikmwpe boaa. < 1285001132 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, no that isn't thypical of me < 1285001135 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION headaches at array coerced into scalar vs $#somearray
< 1285001138 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: extra sigil at the start < 1285001147 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I almost never use æ except when discussing the char itself < 1285001149 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be sensible if they were the same. They're not < 1285001152 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, $reference is a scalar holding a reference, $$scalar is the scalar it points to < 1285001154 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: You're always so bloody thypical, you stblgcneinn. < 1285001160 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :likewise, %$scalar is the hash it points to, etc < 1285001167 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ah < 1285001168 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*$$reference, %$reference < 1285001189 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if $reference isn't a reference, or the wrong sort of reference, it causes a run-time warning < 1285001193 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl isn't big on the idea of run-time errors < 1285001205 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why you should always turn warnings on (-w command-line option, or "use warnings;" in the program) < 1285001209 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hrrm. You might have spoken enough lines in here that fizzie could make a fungot language model for you < 1285001209 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: the masamune! ride again! < 1285001218 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, not sure if I have spoken enough as well < 1285001222 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I've spoken more than enough. < 1285001224 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, oh? the sword? < 1285001224 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: shall we get back to the present? he's been known. we reptites will rule the world in a mere door that keeps us bound, hand, foot...and tongue kid? ...oh, it's you, isn't this morbid? the great adventurer toma levine rests in a grave to the north. it's a great place for a picnic! heard that magus's place... < 1285001240 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl's random quirks are maddening < 1285001240 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The YouTube corpus, for instance, is quite small. Because asiekierka wasn't smart enough to do anything more than manually copy and paste YouTube comments out. < 1285001241 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, right. It would be interesting :) < 1285001246 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: are English's? < 1285001252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It's already been done. < 1285001255 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grep logs for "virtuehird". < 1285001261 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ah, about when? < 1285001267 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :About then. < 1285001267 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I'm on laptop atm < 1285001268 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been speaking English as a little kid. I'm used to it < 1285001273 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I was still ehird, at least. < 1285001273 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I don't have full logs locally < 1285001276 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a bit late to learn Perl as a little kid < 1285001279 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: DB. < 1285001289 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :select * from logs where type=0 and nick="virtuehird"; < 1285001290 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yeah but ssh has a latency > 2 seconds < 1285001294 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boo hoo hoo. < 1285001295 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl's quirks are mostly intentionally the same sorts of quirks you get in natural languages < 1285001296 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :accessing it over ssh would be painful < 1285001302 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not many lines. < 1285001309 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, it works fine for irc but interactive stuff? no. < 1285001314 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: ssh has a much lower latency than that < 1285001318 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people play roguelikes over it < 1285001324 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, not when you are on EDGE < 1285001326 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : alise, it works fine for irc but interactive stuff? no. < 1285001329 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just quoted for posterity < 1285001339 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, bluetooth to phone, which has only EDGE atm, not 3G < 1285001340 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually < 1285001340 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote alise, it works fine for irc but interactive stuff? no. < 1285001350 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, irc because I run the client locally < 1285001352 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :225| alise, it works fine for irc but interactive stuff? no. < 1285001357 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still funny. < 1285001369 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1285001378 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are much less funny things in the QDB. < 1285001378 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so you admitted I was funny < 1285001379 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1285001394 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the same way that things Bush says are funny. < 1285001399 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah < 1285001404 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer my original interpretation < 1285001447 0 :trinithis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Vorpal should do "/me Sword") < 1285001456 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*/me sword < 1285001459 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no, he shouldn't < 1285001462 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that wouldn't be amusing < 1285001466 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway yes ssh over local ethernet has less lag. So does ssh from university. Just not ssh over mobile tethered by bluetooth on GSM/EDGE. < 1285001475 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :trinlthis < 1285001478 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trinithis, fairly boring joke < 1285001478 0 :trinlthis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hur hur
< 1285001480 0 :trinlthis!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :alise < 1285001489 0 :trinithis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1285001492 0 :trinithis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a clone! < 1285001499 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :had* < 1285001499 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stupidity: < 1285001501 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird@dinky:~/Documents/#esoteric/logs$ grep --colour=force -ri 'virtuehird' | less < 1285001512 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trinithis: new? or a regular who's changed nick yet again? < 1285001517 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :new. < 1285001531 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, besides the signal indicator on the phone is at 2 out of 4.... < 1285001534 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice to see new people < 1285001539 0 :trinithis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hahah. As they say, imitation is the best form of flattery < 1285001541 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: signal indicators are pretty meaningless... < 1285001560 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh? just for phones or in general? < 1285001586 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :phones in general < 1285001609 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yeah, it is pretty reliable for wlan (well I don't know if it is for wlan on phones, since my phone can't do wlan) < 1285001627 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apple's original response to the iPhone signal strength issues was to release an OS patch to increase the signal strength meter < 1285001660 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1285001671 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so why can't they make the meter more reliable simply? < 1285001700 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: phones normally know the exact signal strength in dBm, but don't display it to the user for fear of confusing them < 1285001716 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"why is my signal strength a negative number? why is it so much lower than my friend's, while I get better reception?" < 1285001736 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does Perl have dynamically-scoped variables? < 1285001757 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: lexical scoping: {my $variable; do stuff;} < 1285001765 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dynamical scoping: {local $variable; do stuff;} < 1285001785 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"my" is nearly always better < 1285001808 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you need the semantics of "local" for some reason, or you're trying to scope something like $/ where you need to temporarily modify the original $/ rather than create a new one < 1285001815 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, why not just change the sign of it and call it something else < 1285001826 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: because higher numbers are better < 1285001832 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Vorpal: < 1285001836 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just that the numbers are negative < 1285001846 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could add a constant, I suppose < 1285001867 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: +100 sounds like a safe enough constant to add. < 1285001885 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: might need to be a bit more, strength can go below 100dBm on occasion with some antennas < 1285001896 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly, it's hard to pick the signal up at that level, but it's possible < 1285001912 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's only a problem if you don't want it to ever be negative. < 1285001918 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what would be really nice would be for phones to display signal/noise ratio, but I'm not sure how feasible it is to calculate that on the fly < 1285001937 0 :webquint!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1285001941 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm higher numbers are better, yeah inverting sign wouldn't work, since that would make lower better < 1285002091 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to freaking *remove the driver's side wheel* in order to replace the battery. WHAT THE HELL < 1285002095 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway it should be plausible to make a scale from worst to best with a bit of margin based on the antenna. Presumably you have a weakest-working-signal as well as a best-plausible-signal for a given phone. Then you could just add a bit of margin as required (probably mostly/only at the top end) and then make a scale from worst to best based on that? < 1285002104 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either linear, or something more complex < 1285002111 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Given how an absurd amount of computation there is in the audio codecs like amr-nb/amr-wb, I doubt a SNR estimate would really be felt at all. They might even already be doing that sort of stuff; especially for any VOIP codecs, for comfort noise generation and VAD. < 1285002119 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that way you should get reasonable good indicator < 1285002119 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :best-plausible-signal can be really high, though < 1285002130 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're right next to the mobile phone mast, and that's entirely plausible in some built up areas < 1285002157 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so show "it's off the scales" or something like that. Will get some laughs < 1285002165 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just make it non-linear < 1285002174 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0-9000 and OVER 9000? < 1285002182 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah XD < 1285002187 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd be non-linear anyway, it's the use of a logscale that makes the values negative in the first place < 1285002193 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm wondering if you'd have to log twice, or something < 1285002283 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, or just do it so that from a scale 0-100, then you give 98% for very-good-not-next-to-tower signal and then use the remaining bit for the extreme case < 1285002317 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I mean, non-linear scales to increase detail in some areas and reduce it in others isn't exactly uncommon. Just look at sRGB < 1285002432 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway phones doesn't provide instant response to signal strength changes. So doing log twice wouldn't be an issue, it isn't like it is done more than every few seconds... < 1285002440 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the display that is < 1285002452 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps it calculates dBm more rapidly internally < 1285002473 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doing log twice would lead to pretty much no change for very different signals at the low end, though < 1285002482 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe just sqrt(log(x))? < 1285002500 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :logarithms take next to no time nowadays, especially if you use a lookup table < 1285002549 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just suggesting a general idea, exactly how you scale it is a fudge factor and would require being able to test it to see how it works out < 1285002574 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway you need more than just signal strength, you need SNR as well < 1285002578 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it'd need to be scaled in a consistent way across phones for signal strengths to be comparable across phones < 1285002592 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I mentioned SNR already as being more meaningful than strength < 1285002596 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1285002605 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, or what about measurements in theoretical maximum bits per second? < 1285002611 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that depends on the SNR < 1285002614 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but excellent SNR and weak signal isn't very usable either < 1285002621 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it is < 1285002626 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm okay < 1285002630 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming you take internal noise in the phone into account in the SNR < 1285002680 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: NO CARRIER < 1285002682 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Me: There are some languages that are more than just syntax < 1285002686 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Student: Like assembly < 1285002690 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Me: Like Haskell < 1285002697 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what if you have basically no noise? (unrealistic I know!) but a signal so weak that the electrical current or whatever from it can't be detected by the circuits in the phone? < 1285002697 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Student: Like I said, low-level languages < 1285002714 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: if there is no noise, it can be detected, by definition < 1285002786 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, could it not fall below the range of whatever sort of electronic thingy that the phone uses to pick up the signal from the antenna? A/D converter perhaps? < 1285002809 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: just put an amplifier in there < 1285002818 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the noise from the amplifier /counts towards the SNR ratio/ < 1285002829 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes but if there isn't one, couldn't what I suggested happen? < 1285002842 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: no, because then the SNR increases < 1285002853 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>>> str(h_f.sampleSingle(50)) < 1285002853 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"iraa dsolh tesheshts c'eoe :ldeonshol: luece fh We" < 1285002853 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That's what I sound like.) < 1285002858 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if you can't detect a signal, then it is below the noise floor by definition < 1285002860 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm I guess you get quantum noise at some level < 1285002866 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can never get actual 0 noise < 1285002871 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :correct < 1285002872 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1285002877 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's known as shot noise < 1285002882 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally, thermal noise is much larger, though < 1285002895 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially at room temperature < 1285002899 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, which is good, divisions by zero in nature sounds so awkward ;) < 1285002961 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, why shot noise? < 1285002977 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it seems so nonsensical... compared to quantum noise. < 1285002988 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's a particular cause of noise < 1285002995 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something to do with it tending to come all at once < 1285003019 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Shot noise is a type of electronic noise that occurs when the finite number of particles that carry energy (such as electrons in an electronic circuit or photons in an optical device) is small enough to give rise to detectable statistical fluctuations in a measurement. It is important in electronics, telecommunications, and fundamental physics. < 1285003037 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://dinnerinabottle.com/ < 1285003038 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MEATWATER < 1285003043 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love how I didn't have to install anything to use the wifi < 1285003044 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1285003049 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can buy gelfite fish water. Seriously. < 1285003057 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, how is that surprising? < 1285003060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Me: There are some languages that are more than just syntax < 1285003060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Student: Like assembly ;; wat < 1285003078 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: well, you usually do on Windows < 1285003080 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless it comes preinstalled < 1285003094 0 :moo8!~shawn@142.204.209.179 JOIN :#esoteric < 1285003105 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aren't most languages "more than just syntax"? Depends on what you actually mean with it. It isn't terribly clear. < 1285003127 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I guess some esolangs might start out as only syntax < 1285003143 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The student was complaining about the way that this language was being taught < 1285003143 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then you invent the other parts < 1285003151 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, closing comp < 1285003156 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Vorpal: well, you usually do on Windows <-- hm okay < 1285003159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: windows does wifi fine by default ime < 1285003161 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*IME < 1285003163 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, asm doesn't even have a single standard syntax < 1285003167 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: preinstalled? < 1285003168 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'll depend on your hardware, of course < 1285003181 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Ex-Chat < 1285003186 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, it has wifi support... < 1285003189 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the Windows desktop I use doesn't do wifi < 1285003190 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since XP < 1285003192 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe even 2002 < 1285003193 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1285003194 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2000 < 1285003199 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although that's hardly surprising, given that it doesn't have a wifi card < 1285003208 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, linux has way better hw support than windows. Though most manufactures provide drivers for windows to make up for that < 1285003218 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but Windows even takes time to install USB stick drivers when you plug in a USB stick, it takes around a minute the first time < 1285003231 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, a minute? More like half a minute < 1285003238 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I guess that depends on the computer < 1285003249 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also it sometimes takes time if you just use another usb port < 1285003252 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :than last time < 1285003260 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is just weird < 1285003268 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yes, it has to install the drivers separately for each manufacturer of USB sticks, and each physical port on the computer < 1285003276 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes me think abstraction fail < 1285003286 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and each port on an external hub. I tested that some years ago < 1285003287 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you plug a USB stick in port 1 then port 2, you can plug it back into 1 again without waiting < 1285003288 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was on xp < 1285003290 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: haha < 1285003304 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if you plug the external hub into a different port, then reuse a port on the hub? < 1285003320 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, doesn't it need to install drivers for the hub iirc? < 1285003326 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and um I don't remember what happened then < 1285003337 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't have any computer handy to test with currently < 1285003352 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows always simultaneously frustrates and amuses me whenever I have to use it nowadays < 1285003354 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just so slow < 1285003368 0 :moo8!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: moo8 < 1285003393 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I survive when I have to use it mostly. Mostly because all the lab computers at uni are core 2 quad at 2.6 GHz or such iirc < 1285003405 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and run xp < 1285003458 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course it has it's own quirks. Like profile not propagating between all labs (while "my documents" does). < 1285003474 0 :moo8!~Shawn@142.204.209.179 JOIN :#esoteric < 1285003480 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I can survive it < 1285003483 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's still frustrating < 1285003512 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want some more fun, a network glitch at the University made directory listings take half an hour to load, during which you couldn't do anything else < 1285003514 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yeah just have to store the theme to a file and reload it if you get the default bg when logging in. Oh except that internet explorer takes a bit more time to get sane < 1285003520 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find it hard to imagine what sort of OS glitch could manage that < 1285003525 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no firefox or such < 1285003535 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(we literally lost half an hour of a three-hour class due to that) < 1285003538 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hereby hates relatively recent American cars
< 1285003565 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THE MOTHER-FUCKING WHEEL NEEDS TO BE TAKEN OFF TO REPLACE THE BATTERY < 1285003577 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THE HELL < 1285003578 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I think the rules require us to ask for permission to install software. But we are free to compile our own in visual studio for courses and such. So I can only conclude that it is okay to write your own browser and run it, but not okay to just install firefox :D < 1285003609 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : if you want some more fun, a network glitch at the University made directory listings take half an hour to load, during which you couldn't do anything else <-- had that recently < 1285003611 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does Firefox install in Visual Studio? < 1285003613 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*compile in < 1285003616 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea < 1285003625 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, login took 20 minutes that day < 1285003668 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and um while I tried to move a file explorer.exe crashed with " at 0x00000000" iirc < 1285003670 0 :moo8!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1285003675 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "For doing development on the CVS trunk (Mozilla 1.9 or higher), the standard compiler is Microsoft Visual C++, version 8." < 1285003678 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi moo8 < 1285003685 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, msvc took a few minutes to compile hello world < 1285003687 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CVS? < 1285003692 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously? < 1285003698 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it does that < 1285003706 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well it doesn't normally < 1285003710 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it was just that day < 1285003714 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, OK < 1285003717 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that's moz? not firefox? < 1285003749 0 :moo8!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1285003758 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, after all they are core 2 quad with 4 GB ram each, on gbit ethernet. Oh and internet was fast, it was just anything on network shares, and since almost everything is on network shares.... < 1285003769 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It's the whole project; but only 1.9, so up to FireFox 3. They've switched to Mercurial for 1.9.1/FireFox 3.5. < 1285003778 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1285003808 0 :moo8!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello? < 1285003819 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi moo8 < 1285003833 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's possible that I can hear you but you can't hear me, I suppose < 1285003836 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's unusual on IRC < 1285003842 0 :moo8!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1285003861 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Their build system is, I think, a bit hairy. < 1285003864 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In addition to Visual Studio, you must install MozillaBuild, a bundle of software including just the right versions of bash, GNU make, autoconf, Mercurial, and much more." < 1285003901 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1285003908 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they call this non-esoteric? < 1285003913 0 :moo8!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am bored < 1285003924 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, now I want an esolang that has really precise dependencies on exact versions of things < 1285003928 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think gcc-bf might count already < 1285003932 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "official compiler" is still VC8 for FF 3/3.5/3.6/4 all, but apparently all those versions also build with VC9, versions <=3.5 in VC7.1, and versions >=4 in VC10. < 1285003971 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :moo8: you could try writing an esoprogram or two, that helps avoid boredom < 1285003992 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or go to anagolf and try to solve some of the problems there (golf.shinh.org) < 1285004005 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, actually I'm not surprised. I seen similar bundles of software in specific fragile versions before for windows. For other open source projects < 1285004011 0 :moo8!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so bored < 1285004011 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think supertux used to have one < 1285004054 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, someone actually did a cheat submission for "cancel fractions", it seems < 1285004062 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I have no idea how, clearly it isn't embed-style cheating or rand-style cheating < 1285004070 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and supertux didn't use msvc, it uses msys + mingw. < 1285004093 0 :moo8!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: moo8 < 1285004116 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn < 1285004119 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was gonna unbored him < 1285004166 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm the obvious way to implement it would be with that 's algorithm which uses gcd < 1285004177 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Euclid's? < 1285004182 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yeah could be < 1285004222 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, which one is the cheat one? < 1285004237 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one where someone resubmitted a "nocheat" version, which was longer < 1285004253 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah hm < 1285004255 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my Perl submission there, incidentally, semi-cheats by using a rationals library < 1285004264 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1285004265 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I consider that to be genuine because it actually solves the problem < 1285004268 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably it's faster to do by hand < 1285004282 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl food < 1285004399 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, the other Perl submissions used the same library as me, but used eval rather than parsing by hand < 1285004403 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why didn't I think of that? < 1285004501 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow at the Scheme solution (which three people found): "(port-map print read)" < 1285004507 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the challenge? < 1285004507 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION reads the WP summary of the Epic of Gilgamesh and can't help but think of Turkish Star Wars.
< 1285004526 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1285004532 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523? < 1285004544 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, doesn't work in plt-r5rs for me. < 1285004546 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cancel fractions < 1285004548 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In order to determine how to accomplish the goal in question, strategic planning basically does routing in plan-space, again using Dijkstra’s algorithm." ;; genius < 1285004562 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: nowadays it uses a modified A* < 1285004566 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i was about to say < 1285004569 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm, might yours not be better? < 1285004571 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your magical one < 1285004579 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus my routing algorithm for when it actually corresponds to routing on the map < 1285004592 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's Ais' Magical Routing Algorithm? < 1285004599 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's... complicated < 1285004615 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like dijkstra's algorithm modified to cache really well < 1285004617 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Complicated is fun! < 1285004619 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A* < 1285004632 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and beats A* after a while due to A* needing to be recalculated each time < 1285004641 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1285004643 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you do enough routings on similar maps, and Planar does < 1285004648 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any new data structures? < 1285004658 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asymptotically better than dijkstra's on fib heap? < 1285004665 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "In order to determine how to accomplish the goal in question, strategic planning basically does routing in plan-space, again using Dijkstra’s algorithm." ;; genius <-- what are you talking about? < 1285004673 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: TAEB::AI::Planar < 1285004676 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1285004683 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only recognised the concept because alise was quoting me < 1285004741 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1285004760 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha; the C solution I'm looking at to "cancel fractions" needs to use a string twice < 1285004776 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and instead of repeating the string or assigning it to a variable, it writes the string once, and ""-6 once < 1285004797 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, is there a reason for that < 1285004797 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :relying on the merging of constant strings that gcc does to make the trailing NULs of the two strings the same < 1285004804 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it's shorter, and it's a gold competition < 1285004811 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1285004816 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*golf < 1285004836 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who cares that it's ridiculously fragile, ranking for golf competitions only depends on the program running correctly once, normally < 1285004838 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, wait, gcc doesn't merge constants unless they actually are constant < 1285004843 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can't write to constants < 1285004843 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are < 1285004852 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't write to it at all, just offsets from it < 1285004858 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"six characters before a null string" < 1285004864 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't modify the null string < 1285004871 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damnit, why can't I watch Futurama in the UK < 1285004901 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how does it know it can write there at all < 1285004912 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, chances are it might be in a read only page? < 1285004913 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't writing there < 1285004916 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is in a read only page < 1285004920 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh okay < 1285004927 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you do not be able to write to what a pointer points to to subtract from the pointer < 1285004953 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"What's the memory address for 6 characters before the start of your stack frame?" "You can't write there!" < 1285004956 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :non sequitur... < 1285004974 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I misunderstood you as it was writing there < 1285004977 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(admittedly the address might not /exist/ due to virtual memory and paging, but writability doesn't affect existence) < 1285004985 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I read " it doesn't write to it at all, just offsets from it" as " it doesn't write to it at all, just to offsets from it" < 1285004989 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note the extra word < 1285005016 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : import java.util.*;enum C{C;int a,b,n,d,t;{for(Scanner S=new Scanner(System.in).useDelimiter("/|\n");b<1;System.out.println(d>a?n/a+"/"+d/a:n/a))for(a=n=S.nextInt(),b=d=S.nextInt();b>0;a=b,b=t%b)t=a;}} < 1285005024 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that really says a lot about Java < 1285005049 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that you can make it as messy as you want but there will still be quite a few long function names in it you can't avoid? < 1285005051 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is that supposed to do? < 1285005063 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cancel fractions, like all the other submissions to the golf competition in question < 1285005066 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it actually succeeds at it < 1285005072 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's a lot longer than the submissions in most other langs < 1285005083 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't know about said competition < 1285005100 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, I see how the golfscript competition cheats < 1285005106 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*golfscript entry cheats < 1285005110 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it contains embedded Ruby < 1285005114 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, huh? < 1285005135 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :golfscript's interp is written in Ruby, and someone added an "embed ruby" command to the lang, presumably on a whim < 1285005139 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but exec was denied? < 1285005143 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay < 1285005147 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: are there any plans to make TAEB less cautious? < 1285005147 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, no exec < 1285005153 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems that always taking the worst-case damage isn't a good idea < 1285005157 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd be better to figure out the distribution < 1285005162 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and perhaps pick the most common, plus a bit < 1285005167 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(while taking into account the worst case) < 1285005172 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: no, because it's so easy to pretty much avoid damage, in most cases < 1285005188 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bots have no issue with spamming Elbereth everywhere, and it's probably the best strategy < 1285005201 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey guys. any of y'all have a thought on whether this is computable: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Bigot < 1285005203 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, doing that feels a bit like cheating :/ < 1285005206 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1285005207 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ^ < 1285005217 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Elbereth is a bit lame < 1285005221 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AceHack should remove it ;-) < 1285005234 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: not Ace, that's not compatible with its goals < 1285005238 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BAH < 1285005239 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either Spork or Un (or maybe both) do something to Elbereth already. < 1285005242 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AliseHack < 1285005256 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spork nerfs Elbereth; Un plans to, but I'm not sure if it has yet < 1285005269 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's interesting that they both decided to nerf it rather than remove it outright < 1285005272 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, nah, a better fix would be to remove it for writing in dust/engraving, that would make it more expensive. One charge from a wand of fire or such < 1285005275 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"TAEB, on seeing this frame, makes a couple of damaging inferences: < 1285005275 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The lower half of the level has turned into solid rock." :D < 1285005287 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: nerf? < 1285005294 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, nerf? < 1285005296 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, un? < 1285005302 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, unnethack < 1285005303 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: make a lot less powerful, it's a common gaming perjorative < 1285005317 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not down wit da LINGO < 1285005321 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reference is if you replace a real gun with a nerf gun < 1285005322 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well okay I know a lot of it < 1285005324 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1285005330 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "TAEB, on seeing this frame, makes a couple of damaging inferences: The lower half of the level has turned into solid rock." :D <-- eh what? < 1285005345 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: if you try parsing the screen before the game finishes rendering < 1285005363 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't actually infer that the level is half-rock, but rather that it's fallen into another level with the same number in a different branch < 1285005366 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is arguably worse < 1285005368 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you could just wait for the relevant line to be output? < 1285005375 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: no you couldn't? < 1285005392 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, wait for the HP lines and such to be output < 1285005396 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the game's rendering order isn't consistent enough / tagged well enough to do that < 1285005399 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1285005400 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1285005407 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, Un had made Elbereth not work on major demons, but hadn't nerfed it any more; but they added that "ctrl-e engraves Elbereth" quick-key, which is a bit... much. < 1285005413 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: can't you just store the order as it is in the code? :P < 1285005414 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so it arrives out of order in the byte stream? < 1285005427 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: ha < 1285005430 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Ace is going to map Elbereth-writing to . < 1285005430 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ctrl+E Ctrl+E Ctrl+E Ctrl+E Ctrl+E Ctrl+E Ctrl+E Ctrl+E < 1285005436 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: noooo < 1285005437 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then reflavour it, to be less arbitrary < 1285005439 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck that < 1285005444 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Elbereth should be painful to do < 1285005449 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as punishment :P < 1285005451 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: the idea is to keep the same gameplay mechanics as NetHack, but make the interface better < 1285005454 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I use . to wait, anyway < 1285005456 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although usually s < 1285005460 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it's more helpful < 1285005468 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, keep using . to wait and have Elbereth protection in the meantime < 1285005479 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I think my suggestion above that it would only work with burning, not with writing in dust/engraving should make it a lot more expensive < 1285005484 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aw, no-one did a better fraction-canceler in Forth than my somewhat crappy quickly done obvious gcd+output solution. < 1285005487 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and perhaps even the burned one could wear out over time < 1285005488 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in practice, Elbereth-writing tends to be control-shift-V anyway < 1285005498 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ais523: what game/challenge does the previous discussion refer to? < 1285005507 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i use . to hack puddings < 1285005509 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, shift? < 1285005510 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Cancel+fractions < 1285005515 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater: pudding farmer! < 1285005518 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just one of many on anagolf < 1285005522 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: and proud of it < 1285005525 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm caring about it more than others as I submitted it < 1285005533 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: just look at his/her nick < 1285005538 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that pudding farming /is/ cheating, just boring < 1285005541 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater: ,-_|_ < 1285005553 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, worst middle-finger ASCII art ever. < 1285005556 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: (__(_)__) < 1285005569 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I love the quote -- < 1285005575 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I interpreted the _|_ as bottom from Haskell < 1285005576 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater, I find pudding farming gives too little, I tend to go for death farming instead < 1285005577 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i was already looking at that, but i have no idea how elbereth, spork, etc. applies to it < 1285005578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The DevTeam has arranged an automatic and savage punishment for pudding farming. It's called pudding farming." < 1285005580 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, i thought it was a unary operator evaluated on Bottom < 1285005583 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's why I added the ,- thumb :P < 1285005583 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as it's the normal ASCII representation < 1285005591 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i gave alise an ascii art of a closure. < 1285005593 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yes, I was trying to figure out the value of , < 1285005602 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1285005602 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that you were subtracting bottom from < 1285005611 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I suppose the value's irrelevant, because the sum as a whole has no value < 1285005633 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :..|. is a nice, minimalistic finger. < 1285005633 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: isn't death farming pointless apart from ascending with weird stuff? < 1285005642 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?C+style+constants has almost a day left, it's another one I set < 1285005654 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: death farming's the fastest way to accumulate score < 1285005655 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well if you want to max score, or get negative score, it is also somewhat useful < 1285005658 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're trying to max out the score counter < 1285005664 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boring < 1285005676 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of the monsters that give higher scores are difficult to farm < 1285005694 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I managed to get exactly 0 for score once with death farming and some careful planning in general < 1285005700 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise is bored by EVERYTHING < 1285005704 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: on NAO? < 1285005710 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, no. Too much lag from here < 1285005718 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it is basically unplayable for me < 1285005721 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, do it in devnull some year, and troll all the people aiming for minimum score < 1285005726 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has servers all over the world < 1285005727 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, Haskell has an empty type as standard? < 1285005731 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: yes < 1285005735 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, maybe, when is devnull? < 1285005735 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: this isn't helping me understand where you are death farming and where the monsters lurk < 1285005739 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how else would you create a function that didn't return a value < 1285005743 0 :atrapado!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Abandonando < 1285005744 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: every November < 1285005745 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, !haskell example? < 1285005748 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, () < 1285005750 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*? < 1285005754 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ah, I have university and such then, tricky < 1285005759 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you probably want to put it in a monad so it can actually /do/ something < 1285005764 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, the game in question lasted about half a month < 1285005772 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell :t putStrLn "Hello, world!" < 1285005779 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And anyway, lazy semantics make non-returning functions basically pointless. < 1285005783 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :putStrLn "Hello, world!" :: IO () < 1285005785 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :() is not empty. < 1285005787 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: that's rather a while for death farming < 1285005789 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :() is the unit type. < 1285005797 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Wait, Haskell has an empty type as standard? < 1285005797 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Phantom_Hoover: yes < 1285005798 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :liar < 1285005809 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I'm muddling terminology, aren't I? < 1285005810 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather, misinformer < 1285005811 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I was doing extinctionism as well < 1285005813 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that isn't lying, though, just being wrong < 1285005813 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or misinformed < 1285005816 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes < 1285005816 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: ah, I see < 1285005821 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|()| = 1 < 1285005822 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|Void| = 0 < 1285005828 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Void -- requires extension to H'98 < 1285005836 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I think I missed water devils though < 1285005841 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, a type with no values at all, such that you know any function that returns it doesn't return? < 1285005850 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C should have one of those, IMO < 1285005900 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, like a combination of void and __attribute__((noreturn)) ? < 1285005903 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, void < 1285005909 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yep < 1285005912 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: that has one value < 1285005920 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a 0-bit number < 1285005923 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC WP gives void as the closest analogue to the empty type. < 1285005931 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :void's a unit type < 1285005941 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, non portable solution: #define noretvoid __attribute__((noreturn)) void < 1285005947 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :void stuff(); < 1285005950 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever you want to call it < 1285005954 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, then use that as a return type < 1285005955 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x = stuff; < 1285005956 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should work < 1285005961 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surely that's not legal C? < 1285005966 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*stuff() < 1285005977 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, as ais523 said, void is an unit type < 1285005987 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the value> < 1285005989 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's "void stuff()", then stuff itself is of type void(*)() < 1285005991 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :void < 1285005997 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which has quite a lot of possilbe values < 1285005998 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*possible < 1285006007 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that's pointer to the func though? < 1285006020 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: the name of a function is a pointer to it < 1285006020 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that's the type of the function, not its value. < 1285006047 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well yeah < 1285006075 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, yes I have to agree here < 1285006081 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Current WP view on C void is: "Note that despite the name, in all of these situations, the void type serves as a unit type, not as a zero or bottom type, even though unlike a real unit type which is a singleton, the void type comprises an empty set of values, and the language does not provide any way to declare an object or represent a value with type void." < 1285006087 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And void x; gives compiler errors. < 1285006129 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, |void| = 1 or 0? < 1285006132 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :void's defined as an incomplete type that cannot be completed < 1285006144 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so via the definition, it's a perfect encapsulation for some type with no way to access it < 1285006148 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it has no values, it is an empty type. < 1285006161 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can assume it's the type defined by the HQ9++ program ++ < 1285006210 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: void quite possibly has values, even multiple values, but there's no way to access them except via type punning < 1285006214 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, doesn't gcc support void as a special type? Like for stack marker something or such < 1285006228 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you used it in gcc-bf iirc? < 1285006228 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no way to create them except via type punning either < 1285006250 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, C99 does say "The void type comprises an empty set of values; it is an incomplete type that cannot be completed." -- so if you go by literal verbiage, I guess it'd be empty, but then it doesn't really make sense as a return value type. < 1285006255 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: oh, you can dereference a pointer to void inside a goto, to jump to that memory address < 1285006272 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's just because extensions need to, according to the standard, fit into stuff that's undefined behaviour in other interps < 1285006277 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, code snippet? < 1285006282 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, maybe it is overloaded in a manner similar to "static" < 1285006313 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: {void* x; label: ; x = &&label; goto *x;} < 1285006318 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinite loop via gcc extensions < 1285006352 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Wouldn't it be a more elegant as {void *x; x = &&label; label: goto *x;} -- now you keep setting x all the time. < 1285006353 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Extensions, though, hence not standard C. < 1285006372 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: it'd be more elegant as an actual noncomputed loop, so it could be optimized < 1285006375 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, exactly, which is why it doesn't affect our argument < 1285006388 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc-bf's use of it is along the lines of "goto *(void *)0;" < 1285006405 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is completely nonportable even within gcc, but I know that gcc-bf handles it correctly < 1285006426 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is an example of the general principle that you can do what the hell you like in system libraries and headers, and generally have to < 1285006466 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another part of C99 says, of void: "The (nonexistent) value of a void expression (an expression that has type void) shall not be used in any way, and implicit or explicit conversions (except to void) shall not be applied to such an expression." < 1285006494 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's empty? < 1285006503 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: you can create an effective void value via type punning, though < 1285006511 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then you need to type-pun /again/ to determine what it is < 1285006520 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you just get the same result as if you'd done the type punning in one step < 1285006536 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But really, it's a terminology quibble; you could as well argue that since "type funcname();" returns a value of type, and you can legally say "void funcname();" and have that return, it can't be empty. < 1285006557 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : this is an example of the general principle that you can do what the hell you like in system libraries and headers, and generally have to <-- no you can't but you have to because you can't < 1285006582 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, with that I mean that to avoid messing up for user code you often have to that sort of weird stuff < 1285006584 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you can, because nothing in the standards constrains system headers/libraries, apart from semantics < 1285006602 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the standards don't even require the standard #includes to actually be files < 1285006616 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#include could just set an internal compiler flag, for instance, in a hypothetical implementation < 1285006618 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you can't define stuff that could collide with the app, and you must be prepared to survive a lot of strange #define (up to a point) < 1285006727 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: if implementing the headers in C, correct < 1285006735 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing forces system headers to be in C! < 1285006788 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm... have you seen any such system? < 1285006818 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1285006827 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's quite a lot of latitude in the C standards that has probably never been used < 1285006900 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I don't know about GCC but iirc clang sets up the initial #defines by passing a number of strings like "#define __clang__ 1" to the parser before starting to parse the actual files < 1285006908 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than just setting it up directly in some internal table < 1285007217 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clang's cool < 1285007395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: taeb's code is unreasonably well-architectured! < 1285007421 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: heh < 1285007436 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"NetHack bot" sounds like something that ought to be a real mess. < 1285007452 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least two of the devs were using it as a test that the principles behind Moose were useful in practice < 1285007457 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TAEB < 1285007460 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*? < 1285007466 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, a test of the concept, rather than a test of the implementation < 1285007470 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something that's rarely done < 1285007471 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: yep < 1285007484 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is TAEB? < 1285007508 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: some of the devs were complaining that my code was hacky, and I said that it was trying to emulate a hack in NetHack's code itself correctly, so there wasn't much else you could do < 1285007630 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : at least two of the devs were using it as a test that the principles behind Moose were useful in practice <-- Moose? < 1285007639 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Perl object-orientation library < 1285007661 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's rather indicative of how Perl works that you /can/ have a library that adds a new OO system < 1285007748 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :POOP < 1285007757 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I often get transmission errors when copying data from/to my phone over bluetooth, I wonder why. Often I get like half an image, and then it works on next try. Nowdays I always check both size once after transfer and sha512sum twice < 1285007763 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a library that changes syntax < 1285007768 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that really shouldn't be needed < 1285007774 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: not really < 1285007785 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can have a library that preprocesses the code, but that's not quite the same < 1285007803 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's what lacks in other langs < 1285007806 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, TAEB is what has been discussed the past half screen < 1285007829 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, it should be clear from the context < 1285007847 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: TAEB is a NetHack bot framework, written in Perl < 1285007855 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :combining it with an AI gives you a NetHack bot < 1285007864 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahh. < 1285007866 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the AIs are written as Perl libraries < 1285007920 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway what is the last thing that nethack prints when drawing the screen? < 1285007946 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's the lowest-right character that actually changed < 1285007957 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not counting some characters that are drawn at other points in the sequence < 1285007966 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so it doesn't print the HP stuff unless it needs to? < 1285007977 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how curious < 1285007979 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why < 1285007989 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should take less code to just redraw the whole thing < 1285007991 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Speaking of which (not that we were speaking of anything, this is a non sequitur), I took some panoramish (more like just stitched wide-angle) things from this water tower: http://zem.fi/~fis/watertower.jpg -- there's a restaurant on top of it and so on. < 1285007993 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to save terminal bandwidth, I think < 1285007997 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1285008019 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and where is that pano? < 1285008020 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: there are bits of code which clearly aren't assuming that terminal bandwidth is near-unlimited, like it is on modern computers < 1285008025 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Being stitched. < 1285008030 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also: nice water-tower < 1285008034 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even an option to create time delays via excess NULs in output < 1285008042 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, very unusual design < 1285008077 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, err what? that would waste bw? < 1285008093 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: deliberately, in order to create a time delay < 1285008107 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lynx or screen or some-such did some pretty heavy screen-scrolling optimization; sometimes when you scrolled down a whole page, if it happened to have enough repeated structure in it, it'd just move some regions around the screen, since you can do region-to-region copies cheaply. (The way it moved things around was pretty visible on the vt510 at 9600 bps.) < 1285008109 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it used to be the standard method < 1285008144 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: The tower seems to have a Wikipedia page, though it's a bit stub-y: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haukilahti_water_tower < 1285008202 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, why the time delay? excessive null bytes just wastes bw... < 1285008303 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: because there's a limit to how fast characters can be sent to a terminal < 1285008312 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1000 NULs would create a noticeable delay on most old-fashioned terminals < 1285008320 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to the time it took to send them all down the line < 1285008352 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so you mean the *pipe* wasn't the limit? < 1285008365 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the internal buffer of the terminal at the end? < 1285008365 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the speed of the connection was the limit < 1285008373 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it tended to be a serial connection at 2400 baud or so < 1285008380 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: First set, out of three: http://zem.fi/~fis/hp1.jpg -- that's about 129 degrees, horizontally. < 1285008384 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sending a kilobyte at 2400 baud will take a while no matter what the data is < 1285008395 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, then those NUL would just waste that bw of the connection!? this makes no sense < 1285008421 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the terminal hardware wasn't the limit, but the connection was < 1285008425 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then the NULs make no sense < 1285008426 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It's for when you actually want to make a fixed-time delay. < 1285008443 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To animate a twiddly thing, for example, or something. < 1285008445 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm < 1285008450 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That you don't want to twiddle too fast.) < 1285008452 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, in nethack? < 1285008471 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: there are fixed-time delays in NetHack, yes < 1285008474 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess there it could be the other animations. < 1285008487 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :things like shift-direction < 1285008492 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which shows you at each location you move past < 1285008518 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh hm I never noticed that < 1285008535 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's an option to turn a) the delay, b) the intermediate rendering off < 1285008942 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, nice pano < 1285008951 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, (took a while to load) < 1285008987 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, no way to get to the absolute top and do a spherical pano? < 1285008989 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1285009074 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It's the upload pipe again. The second one is at http://zem.fi/~fis/hp2.jpg and it's a bit larger (2.2M vs. 1.3M in bytes) so it'll probably take even longer. < 1285009127 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a pile of antennas and such up there in the middle, so I'm sure it's technically speaking possible to get there, but it's not open to the public, no. < 1285009232 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm the antennas would block the view < 1285009240 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would need to remove them while taking the pano < 1285009431 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In hp2.jpg there's the Otaniemi (where TKK's... sorry, Aalto University School of Science and Technomancy's campus is) water tower sort-of visible, though you pretty much have to know what you're looking for. It's a bit strange octagonal-ish shape too. < 1285009501 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.muuka.com/finnishpumpkin/towers/2/img/vote5.jpg is a google-searched image of it. < 1285009520 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that has a bit more than 8 sides, but polygonal anyway. < 1285009555 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION realises he has never seen a water tower.
< 1285009584 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, wait, is hl2 not from the water tower? < 1285009609 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, whaaat? < 1285009631 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We just... don't have them in Scotland. < 1285009643 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, so they use powerful pumps instead? < 1285009644 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: They're both from the same place, just different directions. < 1285009651 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least, not in the bits I've seen... < 1285009653 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: much of Scotland is rather mountainous < 1285009656 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :including most of the water sources < 1285009661 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ah I see < 1285009664 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I imagine they can mostly just use gravity < 1285009674 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, Edinburgh has the Pentlands right next to it. < 1285009683 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so they just put reservoirs uphill? < 1285009685 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1285009688 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uhu. < 1285009705 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember doing a school trip to one ages ago. < 1285009937 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is one city near here that as a water tower that looks a bit like a mushroom in shape. It's officially named "The mushroom" (Svampen). There is some cafe near the top < 1285009943 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svampen,_%C3%96rebro has an image of it < 1285009964 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the trees are actually quite near < 1285009971 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is taller than it looks from the image on wikipedia < 1285010034 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :says it is 58m tall < 1285010079 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like I'm missing out. < 1285010093 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, I thought Scandinavia had mountains aplenty? < 1285010106 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: http://zem.fi/~fis/hp3.jpg -- and there's the third (last) one. It has a bit problematic exposure, mostly towards sunlight, but anyway. (Also shaped a bit differently, took it in two rows of five pics.) < 1285010116 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finland is very lacking in the mountains department. < 1285010127 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I must say, all of these water tower designs remind me of Edinburgh Airport's control tower. < 1285010150 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are some fells up north, but they're rather... lackluster, so to say. < 1285010165 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/Edinburgh_Airport_Control_Tower.jpg < 1285010173 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Wait, I thought Scandinavia had mountains aplenty? <-- not uniformly < 1285010178 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah Finland lacks that < 1285010194 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, and it's very flat in the part of Sweden that I live < 1285010216 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Norway's a bit more edgy. < 1285010226 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, like a wormhole about to close < 1285010234 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, I would be scared to travel up that ;) < 1285010260 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, nice last pano < 1285010341 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Water towers here are usually just pretty boring "tall, slender cyliner, with a bit wider cylinder up top" designs; the Haukilahti UFO and Otaniemi nut-and-bolt styles are the exceptions. < 1285010346 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, your panoramas are much nicer than Vorpal's. < 1285010354 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal's break my computer < 1285010358 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and there's a silly-looking one in Espoonlahti: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_UnH8iNDl81s/SV4vLcBaRnI/AAAAAAAAAOY/jx2AkN5cZwM/s1600-h/IMG_0512.JPG < 1285010366 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: ITYM s/nicer/smaller/. :p < 1285010396 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Truly, Scotland has severely missed out on this font of architectural weirdness. < 1285010415 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So wait, do they use towers in England? < 1285010461 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's another UFO in Lauttasaari: http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiedosto:Lauttasaari_water_tower.JPG < 1285010480 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That one looks more mushroomy. < 1285010493 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's been decommissioned, also; there's no water up there, or anything else. < 1285010497 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With the gill-like structures on the bottom. < 1285010510 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They've planned all sorts of stuff, like a wall-climbing place, but nothing has materialized. < 1285010530 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Vorpal's break my computer <-- that's your computer's issue < 1285010534 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not my fault < 1285010579 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : That one looks more mushroomy. <-- well, that depends on your point of view < 1285010642 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, oh, and the Hanko water tower has inexplicably a fish-shaped weather vane on top: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/Hankoo_water_tower_July_10_2005.JPG < 1285010649 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what's the story on that one. < 1285010708 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&biw=1614&bih=685&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=Svampen+%C3%96rebro&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai= < 1285010716 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, there are some more pictures there < 1285010734 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus for unknown reason the Örebro Castle < 1285010745 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks decidedly less mushroomy from that angle. < 1285010758 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, from which one? < 1285010776 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, I think the side view is quite nice < 1285010796 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All of the ones other than fizzie's. < 1285010800 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, like an UFO parked on top of a giant concrete mushroom < 1285010852 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, and the one fizzie linked was a different water tower < 1285010863 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1285010925 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, mine was in Finland. < 1285010942 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Haukilahti UFO is also lit up so that it looks even more UFOy at night. I can't seem to find a nice high-resolution photo, but http://www.fonecta.fi/images/stillpics///files/343303.fonecta.client/1236243011351_1_large.jpg < 1285010985 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, they light up Svampen too. And sometimes in neon colours < 1285011005 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah, and there's this one in Lahti, Finland: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_UnH8iNDl81s/SVe3phDYq7I/AAAAAAAAAMo/l9xbqWAA5SI/s1600-h/IMG_0445.JPG < 1285011020 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For some reason I cannot comprehend, the relief map of Scotland I found on Google has "ALBANIA" written on it. < 1285011023 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks like it's some sort of low-polygon approximation. < 1285011039 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember reading that Svampen was built top to bottom, using cranes to suspend the upper parts < 1285011041 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1285011046 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while the lower ones were being build < 1285011048 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :built* < 1285011062 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : It looks like it's some sort of low-polygon approximation. <-- indeed < 1285011095 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently Albania is not in southeastern Europe as previously believed, but in the Highlands. < 1285011101 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm would fit right into darwinia! < 1285011262 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: There's a tiny little swamp (formerly a village, now there's something like three farms) near Lieksa (where our summer places are) called "Egyptinkorpi", lit. "Egypt's woods/wilderness/backwoods" (the "korpi" part is a bit tricky to translate). < 1285011274 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've always wondered about the name when driving past the road-sign pointing that way. < 1285011303 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-4-153.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1285011306 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As close as I can determine, there's nothing whatsoever "egyptian" about the place. < 1285011333 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It's right next to the Russian border, but I don't see how that would be relevant either.) < 1285011339 0 :MigoMipo_!~John@84-217-4-153.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1285011349 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what about the "Klockrike" somewhere near Linköping in Sweden? < 1285011353 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a pretty strange one too < 1285011392 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :translates to something like "Country of Clocks" or such, a bit hard to translate the actual meaning. < 1285011398 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, the named one village "Hörhö", which is the Finnish word for, well, "crackpot". < 1285011408 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe "Country of bells" < 1285011415 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hard to tell, same word < 1285011420 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hi, where are you from?" "Oh, uh, well.. the crackpot-land, actually..." < 1285011451 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, could be of Swedish origin? < 1285011462 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hör = hear, hö = hay < 1285011470 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not very sensible, but better < 1285011483 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that would be more likely on the western side, but I guess it's always a possibility. < 1285011518 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, "hörö" I would have said was a lot more likely as a Swedish place name, since ö = island < 1285011541 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it isn't exactly uncommon for place names to end in -ö < 1285011564 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1285011577 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's quite a lot of -ö's in Finland, too. Especially since most of our islands tend to be in the more-or-less Swedish-speaking areas. < 1285011676 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1285012014 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've got brown cheese from norway/1 < 1285012121 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga, as opposed to norway/2? < 1285012129 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that version number? arity number? division? < 1285012187 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, opened in openstreetmap approximately the middle third of the coastline between Helsinki and Hanko: it shows 24 place-names, and ten of those end in -ö. (Strömsö, Storramjö, Skämmö, Jakobramsjö, Vålö, Stora Fagerö, Svinö, Kalvö, Lilla Svartö, Träskö. And I guess you can count Kyrkogårdsön too. And there's Mallholmen and five "-landet"s. And only three that end in "-saari" (fi:island).) < 1285012210 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1285012239 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm assuming osm is showing the "primary" names here; many have names both in Finnish and Swedish.) < 1285012310 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, the one ending in -sjö is "lake" not "island" < 1285012318 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it doesn't make sense splitting it elsewhere) < 1285012360 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, -landet is a strange ending < 1285012386 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and -holmen translates to "island" too I think. Basically same idea anyway < 1285012405 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :norway/1 = norway, doesn't it? < 1285012414 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1285012453 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1285012514 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga, depends on what / is. And if it *is* division, what if it is floating point: who knows, especially on pentiums < 1285012706 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: outokumpu < 1285012728 0 :Wamanuz2!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1285012743 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: Lit. translated: "weird bump". < 1285012766 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or maybe "weirdhill", but I like the word "bump" more.) < 1285012794 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wiktionary says (of kumpu): "A hummock, hillock (small natural elevation of earth, generally smaller than kukkula (“hill”), larger than kumpare (“knoll”))." < 1285012812 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And "outo" is weird, strange.) < 1285012824 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Strangehill sounds like someone's name. < 1285012917 0 :Wamanuz!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1285013548 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1285013648 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@bas5-toronto47-2925351899.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1285014003 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, my sister's P1 teacher was called Mrs Strange. < 1285014123 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just somehow was reminded of Mr Underhill. < 1285014255 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: swatted to death < 1285014293 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1285014564 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bacl < 1285014596 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I had a Nethack bot idea. < 1285014625 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear < 1285014642 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Are you saying "oh dear" just to be negative? < 1285014672 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a typical response to ideas < 1285014674 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: is that an "oh dear, I hope it doesn't manage to find a way to recursively self-improve and take over the world?" < 1285014683 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if so, thanks for the compliment! < 1285014708 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1285014718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: are you interested in hearing it? it's okay if not < 1285014726 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1285014888 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the idea is basically to be stupid. The bot knows how to move around, and what keys are actually valid actions; it knows how to respond to prompts, and it knows how to use menus and the inventory. But... nothing else. It has no idea that q quaffs, for instance. How does it find out? Simple! Everything is quantified, like in Planar, into a resource: HP, gold, etc. Things which are bad are resources that are always negative: for instance, every item w < 1285014888 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ould have a negative inventory-space, every action would have a negative turns-gained, and so on. To start with, apart from when it wants to move somewhere, it acts completely at random. Every time it chooses an action, it notes some subset -- I'm not sure which yet -- of its environment, and the effects it had on all resources. < 1285014918 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then it becomes a case of "each turn, sort all possible actions by how richer they make me; if two items are equal, sort them randomly. Then pick the top action, and do it." < 1285014919 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, you're trying to come up with a new AI algo, based on learning? < 1285014926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Pretty much. But the key here is: < 1285014928 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the issue is that what an action does depends on context so much < 1285014932 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would save this state in a file. < 1285014938 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that's obvious... < 1285014938 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it could die, and play again, and die, and play again, and learn. < 1285014946 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, no, because it's not obvious that it persists across games < 1285014949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the important thing < 1285014960 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :learning algos normally persist... < 1285014973 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also not obvious that it does any learning :) < 1285014974 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, whatever. < 1285014991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm not sure what context to give. < 1285015003 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither am I < 1285015007 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why it's a problem < 1285015026 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think perhaps a neighbourhood -- say two to three squares out? -- of cells, plus any special states: hunger, burden, and so on. < 1285015032 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and for things like quaffing it would note what object it was, of course. < 1285015059 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, this is fundamentally probabilistic in the end; it may do something obviously stupid simply because it was never stupid before, and that's unavoidable. Still, stupid heuristics have surprisingly high success rates, I find... < 1285015095 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: psht, TAEB cheats at Telnet negotiation < 1285015104 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should clearly use a CPAN Telnet module which makes every part of it object-oriented < 1285015111 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and tell that object what it will and won't do < 1285015118 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: IO::Telnet::HalfDuplex is on CPAN... < 1285015126 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly, it was invented for TAEB, but it's still useful < 1285015132 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however: < 1285015139 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://github.com/sartak/TAEB/blob/master/lib/TAEB/Interface/Telnet.pm < 1285015144 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1285015145 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://github.com/sartak/TAEB/blob/master/lib/TAEB/Interface/Telnet.pm#L149 < 1285015150 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :github.com/sartak/TAEB/blob/master/lib/TAEB/Interface/Telnet.pm#L149 < 1285015154 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it cheats at the actual negotiation < 1285015274 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: do you think the architecture has any hope of working: < 1285015276 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*working? < 1285015283 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got this strange thing from rosegarden "libgcc_s.so.1 must be installed for pthread_cancel to work" < 1285015284 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously it'd have to be a melee fighter, not a wizard or anything < 1285015287 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that file exists < 1285015288 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since that requires too large a range < 1285015289 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so wtf XD < 1285015314 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rosegarden actually works < 1285015317 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think if you ran it for a month or two, automatically respawning, it could do something sane. < 1285015320 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just tells me that at exit < 1285015327 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you'd have to have level-increase as a positive resource. < 1285015460 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think the chances of it ever ascending are zero, but I bet it could figure out the mines. < 1285015468 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sokoban... mmmmmmmnope. < 1285015478 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you cheated and had a built in resource called made-sokoban-closer-to-complete. < 1285015484 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then it might be able to learn. < 1285015643 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1285015648 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if Moose is more comprehensive than CLOS? < 1285015654 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's inspired in many ways by CLOS, so... < 1285015673 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might just be equal. < 1285015702 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1285015740 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : alise: IO::Telnet::HalfDuplex is on CPAN... <--- half duplex??? < 1285015750 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can telnet operate in anything except full duplex? < 1285015828 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly. < 1285015842 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I'm just so utterly astonished! < 1285015876 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, since tcp inherently provides full duplex it seems very strange < 1285015975 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you tried gobolinux iirc? < 1285015985 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yeah. NixOS is cooler. < 1285015986 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what was your opinion on it? < 1285015997 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like GoboLinux but rollbackable! And awesome! And it has 64-bit support! < 1285016007 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, sure nixos is cooler, but I still wonder about gobolinux < 1285016009 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it doesn't use irritatingly sentence-cased directories! < 1285016030 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, sentence cased? As in "Binaries"? < 1285016031 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Well... it's better than the usual organisation, but the community just isn't there to make it work nicely, you know? So it lags behind. < 1285016036 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NixOS is more actively developed and, moreover, cooler. < 1285016041 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: /Programs/KDE-Libs/ < 1285016047 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, have you tried nixos more than just livecd? < 1285016057 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I'm going to install it if all goes according to plan < 1285016060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, it ships stock packages < 1285016068 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i already now how Nix itself works < 1285016072 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i already know what it is :P < 1285016075 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ah, figured out issue with complex configs in etc? < 1285016079 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't find from docs < 1285016087 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :configuration is done in configuration.nix < 1285016104 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yes sure, and there was that sshd.start or whatever < 1285016109 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and filesystems < 1285016118 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm pretty sure < 1285016122 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1285016124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forget that last line < 1285016131 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, but what if you want to set sshd configs like: < 1285016131 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was writing something but train of thought got derailed < 1285016138 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Match User anoncvs < 1285016144 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : X11Forwarding no < 1285016151 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AllowTCPForwarding no < 1285016159 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : other complex options < 1285016162 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I believe that will also be handled. < 1285016170 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can take a peek at the manual to see. < 1285016183 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I checked the manuals on the website, and the wiki, and found nothing < 1285016189 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It is probable that many packages still have regular configuration files somewhere. < 1285016202 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, #nixos does exist, you know, and they are friendly. They're Haskell folk. < 1285016215 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://hydra.nixos.org/build/639152/download/1/nixos/manual.html "Example 4.1" has complex configuration < 1285016223 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a cron job, for instance < 1285016225 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, basically, I would consider the whole thing flawed beyond use if you can't do everything that you can do in normal sshd_config < 1285016231 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"shows the configuration file for the locate service" < 1285016234 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure you may say most doesn't care, I do however < 1285016242 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course you can. don't be an idiot. < 1285016252 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, good < 1285016257 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1285016267 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you couldn't, I imagine they'd just make it use the default config file format, for instance < 1285016272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boot.extraModprobeConfig < 1285016272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any additional configuration to be appended to the generated modprobe.conf. This is typically used to specify module options. See modprobe.conf(5) for details. < 1285016272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Default: "" < 1285016272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Example: "options parport_pc io=0x378 irq=7 dma=1\n" < 1285016272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there < 1285016281 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can always, e.g., just say "oh and here's some strings to append" < 1285016313 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I have custom ports and interfaces to listen to, and a lot more < 1285016318 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for sshd < 1285016388 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://svn.nixos.org/viewvc/nix/nixos/trunk/modules/services/networking/ssh/sshd.nix?revision=23872 appears to not have an append option, but i presume that's just because it's early days -- and nothing at all stops you from just making your own version of that file with such an option < 1285016426 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, there are a few config files that are often customised a lot and are very expressive. HTTPd and DNSds come to mind. As do radvd, ipsec stuff and sshd < 1285016451 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s write your own service file that just writes the right config file :P < 1285016452 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*so < 1285016460 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from a config setting < 1285016471 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1285016494 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, does the config do heredocs? sshd config would be non-trivial without that since it uses indention for blocks < 1285016506 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'''...''' < 1285016511 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1285016514 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :''...'' < 1285016520 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as seen in https://svn.nixos.org/viewvc/nix/nixos/trunk/modules/services/networking/ssh/sshd.nix?revision=23872 < 1285016528 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah nice < 1285016546 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway yeah that file is too limited for me < 1285016577 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, for now I stay on arch, but nixos seems like an interesting distro, especially when it matured a bit < 1285016616 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's existed for two years or so :P < 1285016621 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah, early days < 1285016625 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it started out as academic < 1285016629 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arch is quite mature in a paradoxical way. < 1285016643 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On one hand it uses bleeding edge software, on the other hand the distro itself, the configuration stuff, and the community is quite mature < 1285016661 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:17:11 flash keeps crashing < 1285016662 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:17:21 I wonder if it's an old version < 1285016664 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it just does that < 1285016672 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: the community is immature :) < 1285016675 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure mature as in age but the people... < 1285016681 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, depends which part of it < 1285016685 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : can telnet operate in anything except full duplex? <-- actually yes, but it doesn't work properly with curses < 1285016701 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Duplex? < 1285016708 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, why? telnet runs over tcp, tcp provides full duplex < 1285016711 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but IO::Telnet::HalfDuplex is designed to take a full-duplex telnet connection < 1285016715 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and make it half-duplex < 1285016720 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1285016721 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1285016726 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by working out when the other side has finished sending < 1285016730 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1285016742 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, google < 1285016762 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: "sending and receiving", in this concept < 1285016764 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two-way? < 1285016766 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1285016769 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :full duplex does both at once, half duplex does one at the time < 1285016770 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*in this context < 1285016782 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, how tricky would it have been to use google < 1285016787 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about null-duplex? < 1285016814 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it had any meaning I think it would be "disconnected" < 1285016848 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to use google < 1285016912 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, btw I looked at urbit and my first reaction was "wtf", the next one was "okay, the guy who designed that is a theorist, something like a+b looks like it would need O(n)..." < 1285016949 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Urbit? < 1285016955 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, well, you are manifestly not the target audience. < 1285016957 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, if I was about to design a language to actually be practically usable I wouldn't start out with lambda calculus and try to write an optimising compiler for it. < 1285016969 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: a manifesto in two parts: < 1285016970 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well sure it isn't exactly lambda calculus < 1285016971 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://moronlab.blogspot.com/2010/01/nock-maxwells-equations-of-software.html < 1285016972 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://moronlab.blogspot.com/2010/01/urbit-functional-programming-from.html < 1285016974 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but about as efficient < 1285016977 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as I can tell < 1285016978 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, you have no VISION < 1285016979 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it isn't even vaguely like the lambda calculus. < 1285016989 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: he's right in that addition is O(n) or something like it. < 1285016991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, read the two posts. < 1285016997 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the networking stuff is close to bang on. the rest is at least mind-expanding. < 1285017006 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, using the standard unary definition? < 1285017007 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and multiplication is about O(n^2) at least < 1285017011 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not worse < 1285017029 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm it's decrement that's difficult < 1285017034 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: it has integers built in; anyway, just give them a read :P < 1285017045 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and yes, decrement I have no clue how to do < 1285017050 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :keep a list of integers? < 1285017052 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1285017065 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :considering his challenge for basic competency is to construct decrement, you're definitely losing < 1285017067 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, does it use Church numerals or their approximants? < 1285017077 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: it has native integers. < 1285017089 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: he explains how to do it efficiently with jets in the Urbit post. < 1285017094 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, not church numerals, but it has a successor function but no addition or such < 1285017103 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no predecessor iirc < 1285017117 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so yeah, doing it in the compiler basically < 1285017122 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, an innovator sees an idea and thinks "in what ways is this interesting?", not "in what ways is this flawed?" < 1285017123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: no. < 1285017129 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: i will field no further loaded questions on the subject. < 1285017131 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1285017134 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1285017137 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, \(_,x) -> (x, S x) is the easiest way in the pure LC. < 1285017159 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, this is not LC. I only said it looked about as efficient for practical implementation. < 1285017167 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is "not very" < 1285017215 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, loaded? huh. Whatever. < 1285017230 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and I think it is interesting. Just utterly impractical :P < 1285017240 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, as an esolang it would be quite cool < 1285017655 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1285017947 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's LC? < 1285017992 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambda c < 1285017996 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the rest is obvio < 1285017996 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1285018019 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've got a chair hat < 1285018019 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, Lambda C99 < 1285018020 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1285018029 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, or... lambda C++! < 1285018031 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1285018075 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my friend asked me did I ever coded in A and B languages < 1285018089 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i told him that i don't know such langs < 1285018099 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :B does exist, at least < 1285018112 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then he started talking total bullshit about them < 1285018122 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably he was completely making everything up < 1285018128 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"" < 1285018130 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no A, though. < 1285018140 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A is even harder than C man" < 1285018140 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there probably is, but it's likely unrelated < 1285018144 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's also a D < 1285018148 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and various other letters < 1285018149 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :B was preceded by something else iirc? < 1285018153 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: BCPL < 1285018153 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :B.. < 1285018155 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, BCPL < 1285018155 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1285018158 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that's it < 1285018162 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the new lang was called B so as to save three bytes < 1285018167 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1285018173 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I think was a joke, even though memory was tight at the time < 1285018187 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :B is probably more familiar to you than BCPL. < 1285018202 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, good thing we didn't get the zero length string as a language < 1285018211 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would have been awkward < 1285018214 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it looks like a K&R C with even less type safety) < 1285018216 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :great esolang name idea! < 1285018226 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1285018237 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but how would we put it on the wiki < 1285018251 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, btw why did you name feather "feather"? < 1285018253 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :under a different name, probably < 1285018257 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and because it's lightweight < 1285018261 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1285018261 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compared to Smalltalk < 1285018267 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1285018268 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1285018273 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so feather is smalltalky < 1285018279 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I can't say I have dealt enough with smalltalk to know how heavy it is < 1285018338 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Light, except that it is on a virtual machine. < 1285018370 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, you can make lightweight virtual machines < 1285018381 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, and is there any specific reason you can't compile smalltalk to native code? < 1285018418 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps the same reason as Lisp? < 1285018435 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, you can compile some lisps < 1285018441 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1285018444 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But not others. < 1285018480 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, yes, scheme for example because you could suddenly redefine + to mean something else on the fly, which would hugely complicate compiling < 1285018524 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Smalltalk needs a heavy standard library to function correctly < 1285018531 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least, in a smalltalky way < 1285018537 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that can't be implemented in Smalltalk itself < 1285018546 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :things like class classes, etc < 1285018691 0 :Sgeo!~ubuntu@137.125.178.117 JOIN :#esoteric < 1285018711 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, hm I should put up an image just to see how you will react... < 1285018715 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Smalltalk is kinda set up assuming that it *is the system*. You *could* compile it, but it's not very Smalltalky. < 1285018720 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, can you stay for maybe 5-10 minutes? < 1285018734 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, huh? < 1285018740 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You confuse me. < 1285018761 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may have to drag benuphoenix in here < 1285018782 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, who? < 1285019097 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: did you answer my question about my "AI"? sorry, i've lost track of backlog < 1285019141 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, I have verified that this doesn't crash my browser, can't know if it crashes your of course. It shouldn't. http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/tmp/test.png < 1285019159 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all it is just 16 kB < 1285019174 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually 13 < 1285019182 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(was using du -sh not du -bsh) < 1285019186 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What an impressively stupidly empty image. < 1285019189 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No crash here < 1285019191 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, indeed < 1285019196 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was that really what you sent Phantom_Hoover two vague messages about? < 1285019197 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really? < 1285019198 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, i just want to test a theory < 1285019209 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, he said he crashed on my panoramas < 1285019223 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I want to test if it is large image file or large image size that does it < 1285019234 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, anyway it isn't empy < 1285019245 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, check the two outermost pixles on left and right < 1285019273 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>Sgeo< CTCP VERSION < 1285019273 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-Sgeo- VERSION xchat 0.26.1 Linux 2.6.32-24-generic [i686 < 1285019276 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... < 1285019286 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though < 1285019291 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover seems to have timed out eh? < 1285019292 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1285019299 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: what? < 1285019299 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_, so what happened? < 1285019302 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, I HOPE YOU'RE HAPPY YOU BASTARD < 1285019311 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The weirdly low-looking version < 1285019324 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_, a few questions: What OS? What browser (and version)? How much RAM? < 1285019326 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: that's xchat-gnome's version? < 1285019330 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1285019330 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1285019332 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: you don't have to answer that. < 1285019333 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_, I'm trying to help you here, diagnosing the cause! < 1285019334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: *. < 1285019335 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not ? < 1285019339 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But someone might think it's plain XChat < 1285019348 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Oh noooooooooooo < 1285019362 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And think it's an absurdly low version < 1285019372 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo < 1285019373 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_, I can see how it would cause issues if you have 128 MB RAM < 1285019377 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but anything modern? No < 1285019380 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, Ubuntu 10.04 64-bit. Firefox 3.6. 3GB. < 1285019395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AH THE PROBLEM IS UBUNTU < 1285019415 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_, then your system is broken. It works fine on my ubuntu of same version, 64-bit, Firefox 3.6 with just 2 GB RAM < 1285019424 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it works fine on my desktop with 1.5 GB RAM < 1285019446 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_, I tested in firefox. Firefox got slow for about 5 seconds on my old sempron CPU then showed the image < 1285019450 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. Your system is broken. That is the only explanation. You are inadequate. < 1285019492 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yes because it doesn't happen to anyone else and he has more RAM than me (and RAM is the only real potential issue). This leaves firefox or the system being broken. < 1285019504 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_, perhaps it is some firefox addon that causes this? < 1285019511 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it used to happen to me. < 1285019532 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, do you remember what changed when it stopped happening? < 1285019550 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope. < 1285019573 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1285019605 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_, it might be worth trying firefox in safe mode on that page < 1285019623 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be: firefox -safe-mode < 1285019646 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is xtrlock acceptable? < 1285019647 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe xlockmore < 1285019680 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, what do they do? < 1285019706 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, x screen lockers? then I suggest using whatever the DE uses by default or slock < 1285019715 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe I should just set a password < 1285019728 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, you should have a password on your user of course < 1285019732 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I presumed you already did < 1285019743 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm using a LiveUSB-like thingy < 1285019749 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should switch to Knoppix < 1285019761 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Might be easier to boot from CD and read data from USB < 1285019766 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With Knoppix < 1285019772 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: slock < 1285019778 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, no, it's not. < 1285019780 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Keep using Ubuntu. < 1285019829 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does Ubuntu have that Knoppix doesn't, besides GNOME and installability? < 1285019832 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BRB < 1285019837 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_, did you hear the disk access a lot during the freeze? < 1285019847 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_, indicating swap trashing < 1285019851 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, GNOME's lock screen thingy doesn't work < 1285019869 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, the disk access light was off. < 1285019883 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_, hrrm < 1285019887 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it blinked occasionally, but not often. < 1285019897 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(At least, I assume it's the disk access light.) < 1285019903 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_, did sysrq work? could you switch to a terminal with ctrl-alt-F1? < 1285019930 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_, I assume you tried both < 1285019934 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes to the first, no to the second. < 1285019938 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, answer please? < 1285019962 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_, hm < 1285019978 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_, anyway, can you wget it and open it in gimp without issues? That shouldn't crash. < 1285019983 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: what? < 1285019988 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, there is no plausible way it could < 1285019990 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, surely those two things are pretty good. < 1285019996 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does Ubuntu have that Windows doesn't? < 1285020002 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no reason to arbitrarily pick an inferior option merely because it is different. < 1285020027 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_, oh and what GPU? I'm considering if it could be some obscure hw double buffer size thingy limit, but firefox probably doesn't do zooming in opengl, so unlikely < 1285020091 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, a) I didn't try to zoom; b) my GPU is whatever crap Intel glued to the motherboard. < 1285020097 0 :Sgeo|irssi!~ubuntu@137.125.178.117 JOIN :#esoteric < 1285020102 0 :Sgeo|irssi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i3lock != slock? < 1285020104 0 :Sgeo|irssi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION now hates alise
< 1285020106 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SLOCK JUST USE SLOCK DAMMIT < 1285020113 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i never said i3lock < 1285020114 0 :Sgeo|irssi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: There was no slock package < 1285020116 0 :Sgeo|irssi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just i3lock < 1285020121 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So fucking compile it! < 1285020125 0 :Sgeo|irssi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which was supposedly an improved version of slock < 1285020126 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's one make! < 1285020131 0 :trinithis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1285020132 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_, works for me on intel crap so hm < 1285020135 0 :Sgeo|irssi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X seems to be frozen < 1285020135 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, what's wrong with it? < 1285020139 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You type your password in the screen. < 1285020140 0 :Sgeo|irssi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do I unfreeze i3lock? < 1285020144 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You type your password. < 1285020154 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, i3lock != slock < 1285020158 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a fork < 1285020159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of slock < 1285020162 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just looked it up < 1285020164 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1285020174 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|irssi, there is no password prompt, type password, hit enter < 1285020176 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was never a prompt to type it < 1285020177 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1285020179 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|irssi, that's all < 1285020185 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, i3lock uses pam. and supports backgrounds. and beeps on wrong passwords (pointless). and uses PAM < 1285020188 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how crappy < 1285020208 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's so wrong with backgrounds? < 1285020211 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, pam has the advantage of supporting stuff like ldap < 1285020212 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and such < 1285020221 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but pam sucks :P < 1285020227 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: slock is minimalist code. < 1285020237 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, sure, but there is no other alternative that exists today < 1285020238 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know you've never heard of minimalism, but there you go < 1285020243 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: not using LDAP < 1285020249 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, true, kerberos then < 1285020256 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I've heard of minimalism! < 1285020259 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: not using kerberos < 1285020260 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1285020261 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: *Sgeo: < 1285020266 0 :trinithis!~trinithis@99-7-56-119.lightspeed.davlca.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1285020266 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait < 1285020268 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Phantom_Hoover_: < 1285020269 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever < 1285020271 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you all suck < 1285020280 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I resent that remark! < 1285020280 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think pam is moderately useful < 1285020283 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's all < 1285020326 0 :Sgeo|irssi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~/exit < 1285020328 0 :Sgeo|irssi!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1285020328 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: *resemble < 1285020329 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I'm sure you wouldn't want plain shadow auth if you had to admin a network of 200 workstations with hundred of users where everyone could log in at any computer < 1285020332 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1285020335 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, say, university network < 1285020343 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, then you might see the point of network auth < 1285020343 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, *represent < 1285020344 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1285020348 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yeah, well, sysadminning is hell. < 1285020351 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why only the stupid do it < 1285020359 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, of course < 1285020370 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, but I'm just saying *network auth is sometimes useful* < 1285020375 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blah blah blah robots < 1285020388 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and *there exists no other good alternative to pam currently for this* < 1285020404 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not saying I like pam, I don't < 1285020408 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it is a mess < 1285020417 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :robots < 1285020419 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah, until someone written an alternative it is useful < 1285020423 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, robots how? < 1285020424 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DOes ActiveDirectory do something similar? < 1285020426 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Does < 1285020429 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :botorobotatics < 1285020440 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, activedirectory is iirc ldap + MS extensions < 1285020546 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, PAM is very much like unix: it isn't perfect, but it works (of course, in many other senses it is very different, such as "keep it simple", pam doesn't) < 1285020561 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very much like Windows in that way too. < 1285020567 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, indeed < 1285020574 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, very much like x86! < 1285020587 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, heck it is very much like mostly everything mainstream < 1285020637 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:48:09 The reason I want it spun down is to avoid damaging it further < 1285020642 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't spin it down and rescue it at the same time... < 1285020669 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I gave up on rescuing it for the moment < 1285020704 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will leave further disk rescue help to you alise. I will have a hard time explaining the indention on my face matching the couture of the front of my desk. < 1285020733 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i defer future disk rescue help to Vorpal < 1285020737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how convenient < 1285020738 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, you have just been acting too stupidly through all this to get any further help from me. < 1285020742 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now night → < 1285020777 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.O < 1285020812 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have another computer that I think I'm going to use for this < 1285020975 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:52:22 what's the minimum one would need to do to make plain TeX turing-complete? < 1285020976 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it already is < 1285020979 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My understanding is that I could, in fact, pause it < 1285021075 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1285021076 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise? < 1285021112 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can, but doing it across machines is dumb. and your drive is losing data every time you touch it, which is why you try and avoid doing anything but recovering it as soon as it happens. < 1285021117 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, i defer to Vorpal. < 1285021119 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hypothesis: all operating system ads are so obnoxious that the rage of people watching them could be used for power. Discuss. < 1285021129 0 :MigoMipo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1285021154 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't realize it would take that long < 1285021170 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Leaving it would have meant needing to pause it before Mondays and Wednesdays, and resuming when I got back < 1285021264 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to get ready to go home, I think < 1285021267 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye for now all < 1285021289 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Ex-Chat < 1285021330 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: There are several people rolling in their graves right now; that's more efficient. < 1285021335 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget who my main idea was. < 1285021578 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a non-obnoxious OS ad? < 1285021598 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. one which actually makes you think "hey, I might install this." < 1285021749 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1285021761 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well some of the proposed linux ones were funny but they didn't win < 1285021878 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Link? < 1285022035 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :long lost it by now < 1285022208 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION → sleep
< 1285022211 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1285022829 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1285023215 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1285023700 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :welll < 1285023811 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ia Atat a nice name? < 1285024193 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for? < 1285024303 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: is "Student-Friendly Summary" allowed on Wikipedia?... < 1285024306 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_conditions_for_temperature_and_pressure < 1285024314 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like Here We Do Your Homework In The First Paragraph < 1285024330 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a library < 1285024348 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: doing? < 1285024377 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :regex < 1285024424 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: sane style or stupid style? < 1285024491 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stupid < 1285024515 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1285024695 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: that doesn't really sound like it fits the style guides... < 1285024704 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I haven't read them for years < 1285024716 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the link has it; I'm just pondering whether to remove it with a chainsaw or not < 1285024728 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Standard conditions for atmosphere and pressure]] < 1285025887 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sigh* the US. < 1285025898 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :budzilla < 1285025900 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where auto ownership is nearly mandatory. < 1285026813 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yet radio ownership continues to be optional. Hard to conceive, isn't it. < 1285026820 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1285026953 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, there's a proposed law in the US government (I'm not sure which branch, offhand) to make FM radios mandatory on mobile phones < 1285026961 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt it'll get very far, it's so ridiculous... < 1285027176 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: The RIAA was advocating that the FCC mandate it. < 1285027189 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, the RIAA, bastion of retardedness. < 1285027190 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh