00:01:38 <oerjan> <alise> yeah oerjan realised that you dipshit <-- well strictly speaking i only realized it after putting it into HackEgo
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00:05:23 -!- augur has joined.
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00:15:42 <Vorpal> <oerjan> argh the logs cut off about an hour and a half ago <-- someone mail the guy to fix clog, it's broken
00:15:55 <Vorpal> oerjan, I don't have his mail
00:16:33 <Vorpal> <ais523> for instance, for a while there was a standard request for passengers to shift their weight to the left, because otherwise the doors wouldn't close <-- awesome
00:16:53 * Sgeo doesn't particularly have much weight to shift
00:17:05 * Sgeo is 111 lbs last he checked
00:17:32 <Vorpal> Sgeo, what is that in the SI system units?
00:18:27 * pikhq is something like 80kg
00:18:59 <pikhq> Vorpal: 180 cm or so
00:19:08 <Vorpal> ah, so you are short :P
00:19:26 <pikhq> For certain definitions of "short", perhaps. Ones set by giants, for instance.
00:20:05 <Vorpal> pikhq, I wish I had grown to 190 cm. 189.5 is *soo close*
00:20:41 <pikhq> What annoys me is non-SI units.
00:21:14 <pikhq> Especially ambiguous ones.
00:21:57 <pikhq> A pound of feathers is heavier than a pound of gold.
00:23:20 <Vorpal> pikhq, what about a pound of pounds?
00:23:22 <pikhq> A pound of feathers is 454g. A pound of gold is 373g.
00:23:25 <Vorpal> does that count as gold?
00:23:44 <pikhq> Because precious metals are measured in troy weights, not avoirdupois weights.
00:23:50 <pikhq> But both use the same names for their units.
00:24:38 <Vorpal> pikhq, "avoirdupois weights" <-- really? is it different from normal pounds of other stuff?
00:25:06 <pikhq> The avoirdupois system of weight units is the typical one.
00:25:13 <pikhq> Troy is used for precious metals.
00:26:13 <pikhq> But, an ounce of feathers is lighter than an ounce of gold.
00:26:46 <pikhq> 28 g and 31g, respectively.
00:27:02 <Vorpal> pikhq, is this what you use? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:English_mass_units_graph.svg
00:27:20 <pikhq> 16 avoirdupois ounces to the avoirdupois pound, 12 troy ounces to the troy pound.
00:28:40 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, except that ony avoirdupois and troy units are in common use today, and the grain, scruple, pennyweight, shilling, mark, dram, clove, nail, stone, quarter, tod, hundredweight, and sack are obnoxious archaicisms in the US.
00:29:19 <Vorpal> pikhq, you should start using those, just to annoy people. With metric prefixes
00:29:56 <pikhq> Vorpal: Oh, it gets worse. The ounce is also a couple units of volume.
00:30:14 <Vorpal> about how large is it in metric units
00:30:32 <pikhq> Vorpal: An ounce of water != 1 ounce of ice, in volume.
00:30:42 <Vorpal> I have no mental picture of the magnitude of these units
00:30:53 <Vorpal> which i do have for the SI system
00:31:33 <Vorpal> pikhq, "decisack", the word is awesome
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00:33:04 <pikhq> Vorpal: Because the fluid ounce is 29.5 ml, and the dry ounce is 31 ml.
00:33:19 <pikhq> (note: dry units of volume not in common use)
00:33:31 <pikhq> (aside from the peck & the bushel)
00:34:06 <pikhq> Used for measuring agricultural yields.
00:34:17 <pikhq> For instance, bushels of wheat, pecks of fruit.
00:34:26 <Vorpal> pikhq, iirc mostly m^3 here
00:35:00 <pikhq> Oh, and a barrel of oil is not the same volume as a barrel of water, which is not the same volume as a barrel of wheat.
00:35:13 <pikhq> 158L, 119L, 115L, respectively.
00:35:28 <Vorpal> pikhq, you are so crazy
00:35:36 <Vorpal> why do you keep using that system
00:35:44 <pikhq> Vorpal: People claim it makes more sense.
00:36:08 <pikhq> Oh, also: 1 mile on land is not the same distance as a mile on sea.
00:36:30 <Vorpal> pikhq, yes but people write "nautical mile" when they mean it
00:36:31 <pikhq> 1.6km and 1.8km, respectively.
00:36:34 <Vorpal> they don't call it mile
00:36:55 <Vorpal> at least in aviation nm is used as the unit on instruments and such
00:37:05 <Vorpal> since it is not nanometer
00:38:34 <pikhq> I should note that there is no convenient conversion between cubic inches & units of volume.
00:39:01 <Vorpal> only to be expected with a system that wasn't designed but grew over time
00:39:06 <pikhq> (unlike how 1L = 1dm)
00:39:29 <pikhq> There *is* an easy conversion between units of volume and masses of water, though.
00:39:47 <pikhq> 1 fl oz. of water is about 1 oz. of water
00:39:59 <pikhq> (it used to be exact before redefining the units in terms of SI)
00:41:21 <pikhq> Much like how 1L used to be 1kg of water before the SI units were defined more exactly.
00:42:21 <pikhq> Oh, you want even more of a headache?
00:42:44 <pikhq> Each Commonwealth nation using customary units has their own definitions of them.
00:43:11 <pikhq> Oh, s/Commonweatlh/
00:43:40 <pikhq> A tablespoon in Canada is 15ml. In US, 14.79ml. According to the FDA (a US government agency), 15ml. In Australia, 20ml.
00:44:00 <pikhq> A US gallon is 3785ml. A UK gallon is 4546ml.
00:44:20 <Vorpal> that's quite a large difference
00:45:02 <pikhq> Fortunately, the length and weight units were fixed by international treaty, so the only distinctions there are land/nautical and avoirdupois/troy.
00:45:35 <Vorpal> btw, I should start using kiloseconds, it makes a lot more sense than minutes and hours
00:45:57 <pikhq> ... No, wait, the weight units are *almost* the same. A UK hundredweight is 112lb, and a US hundredweight is 100lb.
00:46:17 <pikhq> And in both, a ton is 20 hundredweights.
00:46:22 <pikhq> So close and yet so far.
00:46:33 <Vorpal> pikhq, over here a ton is 1000 kg. And a mile is 10 km
00:46:44 <pikhq> Vorpal: That's the metric ton.
00:46:52 <Vorpal> pikhq, and a scandinavian mile
00:46:59 <pikhq> The Us also uses metric tons.
00:47:24 <pikhq> The only thing we abhor more than sane units is consistent units!
00:48:20 <Vorpal> pikhq, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_mile
00:48:28 <Vorpal> quite a nice unit, if anyone else used it
00:48:40 <Vorpal> it is a nice size to be useful
00:48:48 <pikhq> Quite a reasonable unit.
00:49:02 <Vorpal> pikhq, and useful on the distances found in Sweden
00:49:07 <pikhq> Even if it is hectometer.
00:49:17 <Vorpal> like, two mil to university for me
00:49:24 <Sgeo> The data on my HD is degrading as we speak?
00:49:44 <pikhq> DONT FUCKING SCREW UP POWERS OF 10
00:49:54 <Sgeo> And don't yell at me, yell at my dad on my behalf please
00:50:15 <pikhq> Why aren't there SI prefixes for every power of 10 in a useful range?
00:50:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, because um, imagine having name for everything between giga and yotta, instad of just a few
00:51:11 <Vorpal> pikhq, result: even sillier names than "yotta"
00:51:11 <pikhq> Vorpal: It's powers of 1000.
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00:52:32 * oerjan points out that nautical mile actually _is_ a logical unit. well approximately.
00:52:54 <pikhq> Vorpal: It gets worse if you start trying to do physics using traditional units.
00:53:07 <Vorpal> Sweden used to use metric units for flight, we don't any longer because no one else does
00:53:18 <oerjan> it's originally the length of one minute of arc of a meridian, useful for sea maps
00:53:22 <olsner> you can always combine deka/deci and hecto/centi with the standard prefixes
00:53:27 <Vorpal> basically it screwed up for altitude calculations with about everyone else
00:53:59 <Vorpal> oh Soviet was completely metric too
00:54:25 <oerjan> olsner: by "you can always" you mean "it's not actually permitted to" afaik
00:54:44 <Vorpal> oerjan, dekakilometer?
00:54:55 <pikhq> Vorpal: ft^2°Fh/BTU, anyone?
00:54:56 <olsner> not actually permitted? who has the power to forbid this?
00:54:58 <Vorpal> or kilodekameter perhaps
00:55:21 <oerjan> it's not part of the standard, anyway
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00:55:40 <pikhq> Vorpal: That's a unit of thermal resistance. The foot-squared degree Fahrenheit hour per British Thermal Unit.
00:55:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, still flight use two units of pressure, and instruments are commonly marked with both SI units (hPa iirc) and inHg
00:56:15 <Vorpal> pikhq, what is the SI unit for it?
00:56:45 <Vorpal> pikhq, what is "British Thermal Unit" exactly?
00:57:40 <Vorpal> pikhq, now if SI could just get rid of the kg prototype
00:57:46 <pikhq> (1055.05585262 in the UK)
00:57:56 <Vorpal> define it in terms of some natural constants or such
00:58:08 <oerjan> it's the heat production corresponding to one second of british parliament discussion
00:58:12 <Vorpal> like has been done for all the other prototypes
00:58:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, shouldn't "British termal unit" refer to UK always?
00:58:59 <pikhq> That would make sense!
00:59:02 <Vorpal> I mean, "UK British termal unit" is absurd
00:59:05 <augur_> Vorpal: they _have_ gotten rid of the kg prototype, i think
00:59:13 <pikhq> augur_: No, it's the remaining prototype.
00:59:22 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur.
00:59:37 <pikhq> There's currently debate over what possible replacement definition to use.
01:00:16 <pikhq> The ones I like most involve defining the Avogadro constant exactly.
01:03:39 <oerjan> number of atoms in a standard avocado
01:05:41 <lambdabot> [-Infinity,0.0,1.0,2.718281828459045,15.154262241479262,3814279.104760214,I...
01:06:02 <augur> pikhq: do you have any interest in physics?
01:06:30 <pikhq> More practically, I am taking a physics course ATM, and as such have to care. :P
01:07:09 <augur> pikhq: check out some of Julian Barbour's work (links to follow)
01:07:16 <augur> The Case for Geometry: http://pirsa.org/index.php?p=media&url=http://streamer.perimeterinstitute.ca/Flash/9a93c428-c616-4dca-8713-915277e28056/viewer.html&pirsa=10050060&type=Flash%20Presentation
01:07:38 <augur> The deep and suggestive principles of Leibnizian philosophy: http://platonia.com/barbour_hrp2003.pdf
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01:17:52 <alise> <augur_> Vorpal: they _have_ gotten rid of the kg prototype, i think
01:17:56 <alise> amusingly, it's actually getting lighter
01:18:07 <augur> alise: well, magic and all.
01:18:15 <augur> but wait.. HOW DO THEY KNOW?!
01:18:28 <augur> (i know how they know but it was funny to say XP)
01:18:41 <Vorpal> augur, correction "lighter relative it's replicas"
01:18:41 <pikhq> EVERYTHING ELSE IS GETTING HEAVIER
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01:18:48 <alise> augur: their 1kg weights started getting lighter
01:18:50 <Vorpal> which is indeed not absolute lighter
01:19:07 <alise> Vorpal: IT WAS A FUCKING JOKE
01:19:16 <Vorpal> alise, ah, I just read about this :P
01:19:17 <alise> i was saying that everything weighing 1kg in the world got lighter
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01:21:10 <augur> see you in a bit, peeps.
01:21:18 <alise> lament: why thank you
01:21:47 <oerjan> quark mating can be a bit up and down, you know
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01:24:17 <alise> coppro: if I wrote a comprehensive, referenced errata for that ed in Python post, would it get published? or would i languish here in my infinite pit of despair, envying pizza
01:24:31 <oerjan> but it has its strange charm
01:25:22 <Sgeo> alise, you desire recognition!
01:25:40 <Sgeo> (Or, well, for what you work on to be useful)
01:25:44 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
01:25:54 <alise> it'd be the most worthless piece of text ever written!
01:26:04 <oerjan> lament: do you mean i should quit while on top, or that i've already hit rock bottom?
01:26:06 <alise> a dry analysis of something probably written in three minutes for the hell of it!
01:26:24 <pikhq> Why does my computer insist that it's 19:26 while everything else insists it's 18:26?
01:26:27 <alise> <lament> /kick oerjan ;; Ha, ha, our op is retarded and can't type two /s.
01:26:37 <alise> pikhq: Your other computer is actually in a wormhole bubble across a timezone.
01:26:43 <Sgeo> Some clients don't use two //
01:26:47 <lament> oerjan: i mean i'm gonna beat you up red, green and blue
01:26:49 <Sgeo> Some clients also don't know of /say
01:26:54 <alise> pikhq: You will notice that if you eject the CD-ROM drive, it will disappear half-way through.
01:27:02 <alise> coppro: excellent, i shall get writing immediately
01:27:02 <Sgeo> And typing /msg #esoteric /whatever can be a prick
01:27:24 <alise> coppro: I cannot let this ridiculous Canadian sloppiness go uncorrected
01:27:33 <alise> Sgeo: "can be a prick"? Seriously?
01:27:35 <oerjan> lament: well i guess should expect being met with strong force
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01:28:01 <pikhq> ... Because my timezone got set wrong. Fuuuccck.
01:28:03 <Sgeo> I still don't swear like a sailor?
01:28:16 <alise> pikhq: No. Wormholes.
01:28:28 <alise> Sgeo: I don't think ANYBODY says that :P
01:28:33 <alise> Or if they do, they shouldn't.
01:28:47 <Sgeo> I say it. Happy?
01:30:47 <Vorpal> oerjan, I guess the mating quarks find each other charming? Though I guess it is a very strange topic to humans.
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01:31:06 <Sgeo> alise, watched Sintel?
01:31:24 <oerjan> Vorpal: well sometimes they're just meson around
01:31:31 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRsGyueVLvQ
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01:31:39 <Vorpal> Sgeo, not just the trailer?
01:31:48 <alise> coppro: [[Errata for the article "Python Implementation of ed" by *null, as
01:31:48 <alise> printed in issue 114.1 of the University of Waterloo Faculty of
01:31:49 <alise> Mathematics Student Newspaper mathNEWS.]]
01:31:53 <Sgeo> Is the trailer 14 minutes long?
01:31:54 <alise> If you want this title to be more precise, it can be.
01:32:14 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I thought youtube videos were limited to 10 minutes?
01:32:28 <Sgeo> This one is 14:48 somehow
01:32:36 <Vorpal> dbelange, a lot of us do
01:32:37 <alise> Sgeo: not for registered thingybobs.
01:32:49 <Sgeo> alise, it's Vorpal who asked
01:33:08 <Vorpal> [download] Destination: eRsGyueVLvQ.video <-- wtf is .video
01:33:08 <Sgeo> But I didn't realize BlenderFoundation was a registered thingy
01:33:33 <Vorpal> $ file eRsGyueVLvQ.video
01:33:34 <Vorpal> eRsGyueVLvQ.video: ISO Media, MPEG v4 system, version 2
01:33:49 <Vorpal> "Your video output acceleration driver does not support the required resolution: 2048x872 pixels. The maximum supported resolution is 2046x872."
01:34:35 <dbelange> Vorpal: I was wondering if Befunge is related to Bungie?
01:34:45 <dbelange> Is this mischan should I ask #alephone
01:34:56 <Vorpal> dbelange, I have no idea what bungie is
01:35:03 <Vorpal> so I can't answer that
01:35:29 <Sgeo> This is the right chan for Befunge questions
01:35:33 <Sgeo> Wrong one for Bungie questions
01:35:50 <dbelange> Thats what I'm asking is, there a relation
01:36:05 <lament> probably not since nobody here knows what bungie is ??
01:36:13 <Sgeo> Considering that none of us have heard of Bungie, pro.. what lament said
01:36:15 <dbelange> I know Pfhortran is related with Bungie
01:36:19 <Sgeo> It rings a bell though
01:36:22 <lament> other than stretchy rope
01:36:29 <coppro> alise: don't submit to me
01:36:31 <lament> are you talking about stretchy rope dbelange
01:36:40 <Sgeo> Some video game dev?
01:36:50 <alise> coppro: i am merely asking for feedback, you... you worthless bear-mauler
01:37:04 <Sgeo> Aha! Proof that several video games are made in Befunge!
01:37:09 <Sgeo> It can't be a coincidence
01:37:10 <alise> dbelange: wait, the company?
01:37:19 <dbelange> Yeah I'm wondering pretty much about video game developing in Befunge
01:37:23 <alise> Sgeo: bungie make marathon and halo
01:37:31 <dbelange> since it is pretty much a game already
01:37:36 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to GlennBeck.
01:37:37 <alise> dbelange: no relation whatsoever
01:37:39 -!- GlennBeck has changed nick to Sgeo.
01:37:41 <lament> you're in luck befunge is pretty much designed for video game development
01:37:41 <alise> wait, how is it even a game...
01:37:43 <Sgeo> Ok, that nick is registered
01:37:49 <dbelange> alise: But they did make Pfohrtran
01:37:57 <alise> it is -- hunt the wumpus!
01:38:15 <alise> dbelange: of which google knows nothing
01:38:27 <lament> didn't someone have like chess in befunge
01:38:59 <dbelange> Anyway befunge is like a basic RPG
01:38:59 <Sgeo> Ah, it's a language designed for video game stuff
01:39:11 <Vorpal> [0x1d378b0] avcodec decoder error: more than 5 seconds of late video -> dropping frame (computer too slow ?)
01:39:27 <Vorpal> *goes to sintel website and downloads lower res*
01:39:36 <Vorpal> still now I get way less than my monitor
01:40:15 <Sgeo> I haden't even heard of Sintel until a celebrity tweeted about it :/
01:40:18 <alise> <dbelange> Anyway befunge is like a basic RPG ;; what?
01:40:24 <alise> Sgeo: why do you follow celebrities
01:40:56 <Sgeo> Felicia Day, to be specific
01:41:03 <Sgeo> Not someone like Brittany Spears
01:41:14 <dbelange> alise: Well you have a man who moves
01:41:35 <dbelange> and there are registers (could be HP, gold, ....)
01:41:42 <dbelange> Maybe this is a better example http://alfedenzia.com/scuttle/scuttle.html
01:42:23 <oerjan> dbelange: i guess you _could_ ask the inventor cpressey if he was inspired by RPGs, he sometimes comes here
01:43:01 <dbelange> Im wondering mostly tonight though (lol) about making befunge into a game
01:43:13 <dbelange> or bringing out its Inner Game XD
01:43:16 <lament> there's that other languague
01:43:17 <Sgeo> I'd love it if someone just came in here and asked about PSOX
01:43:26 <lament> with mouses and cheese and stuff
01:43:30 <oerjan> well why not, we've already made brainfuck into a game at least twice :D
01:44:11 <Sgeo> I'm partial to Taxi
01:44:20 <Sgeo> When it comes to those sort of langs
01:44:28 <dbelange> So like increment is treasure chest, decrement is orcs, ... etc
01:44:30 <lament> dbelange: http://catseye.tc/projects/hunter/doc/website_hunter.html
01:44:55 <oerjan> ah yes same author too
01:45:42 <alise> i am pretty sure dbelange is just fucking with us.
01:46:30 <oerjan> alise: um it's not a weirder idea than many others around here...
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01:47:10 <dbelange> alise: fwiw my intentions are more noble than comp games
01:47:35 <lament> the reason dbelange is fucking with us is that he's not actually going to implement this
01:48:02 <Sgeo> Townsburg! http://www.bigzaphod.org/taxi/map-big.png
01:48:04 <dbelange> lament: I want to make befunge into a game for didactical reasons
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01:50:03 <dbelange> Any way I think that a computer game that teaches kids to think in terms of universal machines (TM or s-exps say) would be beneficial no?
01:50:36 <dbelange> I think most games that have been made with this goal in mind have only done regular languages or SOMETIMES context-free
01:51:21 * oerjan is reminded of http://worrydream.com/AlligatorEggs/
01:52:52 * Sgeo would love to see turing machines kidified
01:53:02 <dbelange> so for a regular language you might have robot games, or a tower defence
01:53:50 <dbelange> but I think a 2d TM or stack-based thing (like befunge) where registers are HP or caches of trasure
01:54:00 <dbelange> and decrementers are orcs and traps
01:54:18 <dbelange> would be beneficial to kids learning to think
01:55:03 <Sgeo> But decrement isn't evil
01:55:17 <dbelange> it is if the stack is empty rofl
02:00:11 <Vorpal> Sgeo, wrt sintel: meh, not what I expected
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02:03:54 <lament> augur: hey we got another fag in the channel
02:04:19 <Vorpal> lament, nasty thing you did there
02:04:20 <augur> so thats 100% of the channel still, then, ey?
02:05:05 <Vorpal> dbelange, also pop on empty stack in befunge is just pop 0. If that is what you meant.
02:05:25 <Vorpal> anything on empty stack acts as if it popped 0
02:05:36 <pikhq> Lé sigh. US poverty rates hit 14% of the population.
02:05:49 <Vorpal> pikhq, I read that as "USB poverty" first XD
02:06:06 <Vorpal> dbelange, um you mean exit? @
02:06:20 <Vorpal> dbelange, or in befunge-98 you can use q, which pops an exit code
02:06:34 <Vorpal> both befunge93 and befunge98 has @
02:06:35 <dbelange> no I think some crash would be better
02:06:37 <Vorpal> which takes no parameter
02:06:46 <lament> http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2004
02:07:03 <Vorpal> dbelange, hopefully not, since I maintain a befunge-98 implementation
02:07:39 <Vorpal> dbelange, anyway, you might want to design a fungoid then
02:08:58 <dbelange> No I don't want to build it from the ground "up"
02:10:18 <dbelange> I just think with the proper interpertation and tileset (or diablo style gfx) it would be useful
02:10:51 <Vorpal> you plan on displaying the running program?
02:11:02 <Sgeo> You'd also want an implementation that displays ongoing internals probably
02:11:13 <Vorpal> what is wrong with ASCII graphics?
02:11:25 <Sgeo> Kids might not like it, I guess
02:11:35 <dbelange> Vorpal have you read the Diamond Age
02:11:38 <Vorpal> also how do you display ongoing internals? Befunge-98 has at least 2^32 * 2^23
02:11:45 <Vorpal> you can't display that
02:11:52 <dbelange> the key is to slowly develop it more and more so that at first it's like 3d
02:12:09 <Vorpal> I never heard of "diamond age"
02:12:11 <Sgeo> I meant the stack (there's a stack, right?)
02:12:30 <lament> dbelange: and then it's just 0000000
02:12:42 <dbelange> The display is centered on the player, liek diablo
02:12:48 <oerjan> um i think for this limiting fungespace to screen size is ok. or maybe panning...
02:13:31 <oerjan> dbelange: there are a number of avid nethack players in the channel
02:14:18 <Vorpal> I seem to remember reading that diablo was inspired by nethack
02:14:35 <oerjan> a 2d game with ascii graphics, afaiu. but otherwise very complicated.
02:14:40 <dbelange> Probably the other way around, diablo is pretty old
02:14:49 <Vorpal> dbelange, no. nethack is older
02:15:17 <Vorpal> still developed of course
02:15:22 <Vorpal> for some values of developed
02:15:46 <alise> coppro, our inside man
02:15:54 <Vorpal> coppro, yeah that last comment basically made me label him mentally as "newbie and/or troll"
02:15:55 <pikhq> Nethack's 10 years older than Diablo.
02:15:56 <alise> exposing the true nature of the criminals
02:16:33 <alise> Vorpal: /msg about the fish plan
02:16:45 <pikhq> Diablo's not even the oldest game *from Blizzard*.
02:17:03 <dbelange> It says nethack was released in 2003??
02:17:12 <Vorpal> dbelange, last version of it
02:17:12 <alise> dbelange: try 1987
02:17:15 <Vorpal> not the original version
02:17:17 <dbelange> Neither "1980s" nor "active developing"
02:17:25 <alise> NetHack is a single-player roguelike video game originally released in 1987. It is a descendant of an earlier game called Hack (1985), which is a descendant of Rogue (1980).[2] Salon describes it as "one of the finest gaming experiences the computing world has to offer."[2]
02:17:36 <alise> and it's really just a modified Hack, which is 1982
02:17:52 <alise> Hack was created in 1982 by Jay Fenlason with the assistance of Kenny Woodland, Mike Thome, and Jonathan Payne. A greatly extended version was posted on Usenet in 1984 by Andries Brouwer. It is licensed under a 3-clause BSD-like license.[1]
02:17:58 <alise> 1985 is the release of Hack that NetHack is based on
02:17:59 <dbelange> It is a descendant of an earlier game called Hack (1985),
02:18:14 <Sgeo> NetHack doesn't really center on the character. YOu know what does? Crawl
02:18:19 <Sgeo> alise hates me now
02:18:19 <alise> Hack (1982) --> another Hack release (1985) --> NetHack (1987) --> ... -> NetHack (2003)
02:18:25 <alise> dbelange: ^ i drew you a nice diagram
02:18:42 <dbelange> Fine, so now that you're done arguing about things that dont matter
02:18:45 <coppro> I find it difficult to believe that anyone with a taurine host hasn't heard of nethack
02:18:49 <Sgeo> Then again, the levels in NetHack aren't freakishly huge
02:18:55 <pikhq> And Hack's more an improvement on Rogue, which is from 1980.
02:19:28 <coppro> moreover, I find it much easier to believe that a CSCer is trolling
02:20:16 <alise> coppro: yes, but drawing diagrams is fun
02:20:29 <alise> pikhq: hack's a total other game :P
02:20:44 <lament> you're in a club the membership in which implies you know Nethack
02:20:50 <alise> dbelange just set his groping option to fag
02:21:23 <oerjan> wait what is this Fag category
02:21:39 <oerjan> and what is the Grp --> Fag functor
02:21:40 <alise> i was thinking categories there yeah
02:21:46 <alise> dbelange: is that meant to be haskell?
02:21:53 <Sgeo> WTF is --> ?????
02:22:02 <alise> wow it's actually quite fun to see Sgeo this confused
02:22:12 <Sgeo> dbelange, ....
02:22:26 -!- dbelange has left ("Until next time").
02:22:33 <alise> i do believe there is some --> thing
02:22:33 <pikhq> Sgeo: Clearly an interesting type-level operator.
02:22:36 <oerjan> but Grp isn't a monad, you need an Eq restriction
02:22:46 <alise> well Sgeo got trolled
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02:24:14 <Sgeo> I feel guilty about driving someone away, even if that someone is a complete and utter moron
02:24:26 <Sgeo> And I still think that the thoughts about Befunge for kids might be a good idea
02:24:39 <Sgeo> Although Turing Machine for kids would be better imo
02:24:48 <oerjan> poe's law for esolangs :D
02:25:24 <alise> Sgeo: dude, he's not a moron, he was trolling
02:27:08 <Vorpal> alise, hey, what I'm supposed with the 200 kg salmon that arrived. UPS claims you are the sender!
02:29:07 <alise> Vorpal: no, seriously ... what?
02:29:18 <alise> oh. ohhhhhhhhhhhh.
02:29:26 <alise> i have too much of a headache to get that
02:29:38 <oerjan> wait trolls are not a subset of morons?
02:29:53 <alise> oerjan: most trolls are intelligent people pretending to be morons
02:30:11 <Vorpal> there are however a few morons that are trolls
02:30:18 <Vorpal> often rather failed ones
02:30:20 <alise> none are any good :P
02:30:54 <Sgeo> What would it look like if I were to troll #esoteric ?
02:31:31 <Sgeo> Spiritual gunk, then when told otherwise, try to combine spirituality and computer science?
02:31:46 <Vorpal> nah, that's just pathetic
02:42:25 <oerjan> i have discovered something alise will surely find disturbing http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/dlsks/simon_peyton_jones_ghc_7_status_update_video/c115tsm
02:43:03 <alise> oerjan: stop distracting me, I have a mathNEWS article to write by Monday!
02:43:09 <alise> i'm totally getting paid for this you know
02:43:16 * oerjan watches alise's worldview shatter into incompatible pieces
02:44:18 <oerjan> or i would if he hadn't applied such hard-handed evasion tactics
02:45:35 <Sgeo> Even I find it disturbing
02:46:57 <Vorpal> oerjan, what's so earth shattering about it, I can't watch that link
02:47:46 <Vorpal> oerjan, I don't have flash...
02:48:18 <oerjan> reddit uses flash? mind you i haven't even looked at the video, just the comments
02:48:29 <Vorpal> oerjan, no the linked to page
02:48:39 <Vorpal> oerjan, but I don't see that anywhere?
02:49:01 <oerjan> well it's a comment _about_ the video, obviously
02:49:46 <Vorpal> oerjan, but "[...] or Reddit communities."?
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02:50:33 * oerjan wonders what the heck Vorpal is actually seeing on his screen
02:50:44 <oerjan> i just linked to a reddit comment sub-thread...
02:52:24 <alise> lol Vorpal is stupid
02:53:50 <GreaseMonkey> make a flash player before you recommend it to anyone
02:54:28 <oerjan> Vorpal: also Jameshfisher is obviously being sensationally argumentative like a lot of redditors, i just found what he pointed out amusing
02:56:40 <oerjan> the "[...] or Reddit communities." is just to complain about being downvoted
03:00:02 -!- hailtothethief has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
03:18:40 <Sgeo> Obviously, hailtothethief is in fact Vorpal
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03:26:39 <oerjan> it's that time of year again http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-11447095
03:28:27 * oerjan likes the Management Prize
03:29:56 <Sgeo> FUCK FIREFOX FUCK FLASH FUCK THE LACK OF SWAP SPACE
03:30:27 <GreaseMonkey> Sgeo: make a big file on your harddisk and then do swapon to it
03:31:12 <Sgeo> My harddisk is a 2GB USB stick, with just 1GB of user data space, and .. about 100MB left
03:33:33 <Sgeo> Maybe I should learn to play with Blender at some point
03:34:26 <coppro> oerjan: yeah, I want to see that paper
03:40:42 <Sgeo> Flash just crashed in the middle of me watching something
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03:54:41 <Sgeo> The crashes are happening much more now
03:57:23 <Sgeo> Maybe an update of Firefox etc. will help?
03:58:04 <Sgeo> Ooh, Gwibber gets OAuth
03:58:11 <Sgeo> I can now actually use it
03:59:27 <Sgeo> Needs too much disk space to update everything
03:59:31 <Sgeo> I'm going to cry
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04:23:54 <SgeoN1> Maybe I should try Puppy Linux again or something
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04:26:28 <SgeoN1> USB stick might not have been in tightly enough
04:26:48 <SgeoN1> I wonder if that could be the cause of the incessant crashing
04:41:12 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_errata my favourite page
04:41:22 <alise> it gets truly hilarious a bit lower down
04:41:27 <alise> especially all the names
04:42:57 <alise> "For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted God, adorned themselves, being in subjection to their owl husbands."
04:43:03 <pikhq> I'm quite fond of "Thou shalt commit adultery".
04:44:13 <oerjan> alise: a fowl fate indeed
04:45:09 <alise> "Their Owl Husbands" would be a good band/novel name/title.
04:45:57 <oerjan> straight from the howly book
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04:53:23 <Gregor> Somebody should print a version of the bible that has every error ever known to be printed in a bible.
04:55:46 <Sgeo> http://cowbirdsinlove.com/980
04:56:22 <Gregor> "Christ condemneth the poor widow" // Christianity is a very capitalistic religion
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04:59:35 -!- zzo38 has set topic: Are the mating habits of quarks really the subject of ephemeral ontologists? Or would they be more wealthy discussing http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D ?.
05:00:43 <zzo38> I don't even know what this topc message means
05:05:14 <Gregor> I don't think it's actually meaningful.
05:05:41 <zzo38> I also don't think it is actually meaningful.
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05:06:40 <Gregor> It's amusing though :P
05:07:42 <pikhq> Well, it certainly doesn't lack unmeaning.
05:08:03 <zzo38> What is ephemeral ontologists?
05:08:21 <Gregor> Presumably people who study short-lived things.
05:08:39 <pikhq> Or people who are short-lived studying things.
05:10:37 <pikhq> Why am I so good at not doing anything?
05:11:07 <pikhq> I'm too busy doing fuck-all!
05:11:22 <Gregor> That's a lot of stuff to fuck! (All stuff)
05:11:26 <zzo38> I did find the problem in the Enhanced CWEB, which I have now fixed. The problem was inserting discretionary breaks after \BIS
05:11:50 <pikhq> Gregor: I'm like Wowbagger with more sex.
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06:14:07 <pikhq> "Im looking for a bento box, it cant be pinku (thats japanese for pink) or any girl color. It has to be of 2 or more kotoba (thats japanese for 2 compartments) and has be be chibi(small) sized"
06:14:21 <pikhq> My faith in humanity is dying.
06:15:24 <pikhq> "kotoba" is Japanese for "word" and "chibi" is a slang term for a cutesy drawing style.
06:15:42 <pikhq> From "chiisai hito", I think.
06:15:44 <Gregor> What's actual-Japanese for pink?
06:16:09 <Gregor> Uhh, that's presumably an import from English. What's pre-English Japanese for pink then? >_>
06:16:32 <oerjan> PRE-ENGLISH JAPANESE WERE TOO AWESOME FOR PINK
06:16:54 <Gregor> Is that just "light red" compressed or something?
06:17:29 <pikhq> Or momoiro. Peach color.
06:17:43 <pikhq> Pinku is by far the most common, though.
06:18:10 <pikhq> oerjan: Yes, same morpheme.
06:19:26 <pikhq> Also, I had to look up ones that weren't "pinku".
06:20:12 <oerjan> pinku shirtu, domo arigato
06:20:42 <pikhq> oerjan: pinku shâtsu wo kudasai; domo arigatô. I think you mean.
06:21:04 <pikhq> Erm, dômo arigatô.
06:21:49 <oerjan> especially if shâtsu is an english loanword
06:22:22 <pikhq> It refers to button-up shirts.
06:23:38 * oerjan shouldn't talk - the original word "kortbukser" is almost completely replaced by "shorts" in norwegian
06:23:40 <pikhq> Or perhaps you mean: hįnnku siȳâtu wo kutàsai; tồmo arikàtô.
06:25:05 * oerjan wouldn't know, you know
06:25:26 <pikhq> Or perhaps you mean "domo arigato, Mr. Robato".
07:12:53 <pikhq> Ò ḥóẅ Ɨ ♥ çőḿṗốŝę.
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07:32:06 <cheater99> http://www.bitrebels.com/geek/this-pool-creates-waves-in-the-shape-of%E2%80%A6anything/
07:34:43 <pikhq> cheater99: Awesome.
07:36:03 <Gregor> It's a good thing they got Japan Kramer to check it out.
07:37:17 <cheater99> actually japan kramer is the guy who made it.
07:37:35 <Gregor> I DON'T SPEAK JAPANALANG
07:37:41 <pikhq> All that for safety testing.
07:38:01 <pikhq> They are using that to figure out how to make better safety testing procedures for boats. Seriously.
07:38:12 <Gregor> I thought it was Japan Business Suit Guy
07:38:25 <Gregor> (The guy who made it, that is)
07:38:49 <pikhq> He talked more like a businessman than anything else.
07:43:08 <pikhq> I'm not sure what's up with Japan Kramer there.
07:43:36 <Gregor> Especially since he's crazy-Euromerican-looking.
07:43:57 <pikhq> Yeah, I got nothing, and I understood the video.
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08:04:28 <Gregor> Did you understand EVERY WORD?
08:04:38 <pikhq> No, but I understood most of it.
08:04:48 <Gregor> Maybe encoded into one seeming-innocuous unrecognized word was a lengthy exposition on the role of each of the people in the video.
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08:40:43 <Phantom_Hoover> I just noticed that the logs cut off halfway through yesterday.
08:44:38 * coppro must figure out how to get a log
08:44:44 <cheater99> YYYYEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!
08:44:46 <coppro> becase dbelange was in here
08:52:29 <Phantom_Hoover> By my calculations, we have 2 hours before the next log fetch.
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09:07:16 <coppro> calculate wronger then
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09:17:05 <Vorpal> * coppro must figure out how to get a log <-- your own irc client logs
09:17:21 <Vorpal> if you don't have them: your own issue
09:18:40 <Vorpal> I could of course share mine, but why
09:20:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Because we don't have any others and we're not always online?
09:24:44 <coppro> Vorpal: specifically, I meant to figure out how to get my client to dump logs
09:25:00 <coppro> it has logs of some length
09:25:11 <coppro> usually about a day and a half in here
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09:44:16 <Vorpal> <coppro> Vorpal: specifically, I meant to figure out how to get my client to dump logs <-- hm...
09:44:31 <Vorpal> -coppro- VERSION irssi v0.8.12 <-- okay, no clue
09:44:36 <Vorpal> but it should be possible
09:44:46 <Vorpal> not sure about dumping scrollback though
09:44:54 <Vorpal> which is different from logging I think
09:45:03 <Vorpal> logging starts from the point you activate it
09:45:37 <Vorpal> coppro, still I could give you logs I guess, they are in a custom xchat-like format and are in the CEST timezone
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09:58:44 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not in general, just for coppro specific usage I meant
09:59:33 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, if coppro wants the logs I will paste the link in the channel.
09:59:58 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but I see no point in helping you, you seem to hate me usually.
10:06:40 <Vorpal> coppro, since you were just interested in the bit where dbelange was in here, that is all I will include. But now, bbl for a few hours
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10:49:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Where was that thought experiment with the sphere of air that approximated the Poincaré hyperbolic model?
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11:28:34 <yorick> how many have come here this week asking for the smallest way to initialize cells in brainfuck to 67, 100 and 111?
11:31:30 <Vorpal> yorick, none that I know of, why?
11:31:35 <Vorpal> $ grep -Ev '^#|[0-9]+/(tcp|udp|sctp|dccp)' /etc/services
11:31:35 <Vorpal> cuelink 5271/tdp # StageSoft CueLink messaging
11:31:50 <Vorpal> I googled and it seems IANA itself lists it as tdp too
11:31:59 <Vorpal> so not just a typo in my local copy
11:32:01 <yorick> Vorpal: because it's part of the dutch informatics olympiad :P
11:32:25 <Vorpal> sounds like cheating helping you then
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11:33:21 <yorick> Vorpal: tag distribution protocol
11:33:29 <yorick> Vorpal: I'm not asking :)
11:33:44 <Vorpal> yorick, or it could be a typo for either udp or tcp
11:33:54 <Vorpal> yorick, after all it is the only tdp port listed there
11:34:03 <yorick> http://www.protocols.com/pbook/tag.htm#TDP
11:34:03 <Vorpal> cuelink 5271/tdp # StageSoft CueLink messaging
11:34:03 <Vorpal> cuelink-disc 5271/udp # StageSoft CueLink discovery
11:34:32 <yorick> the d is not far from the c
11:34:48 <Vorpal> yorick, assuming qwerty
11:35:03 <Vorpal> probably a safe assumption though
11:35:04 <yorick> most people have qwerty
11:36:31 <Phantom_Hoover> yorick, you know there's a huge table of constants on the esolangs wiki?
11:37:12 <yorick> Phantom_Hoover: I know that, but I need something smaller :P
11:38:46 <Vorpal> yorick, if you are taking part in this competition it seems like cheating to help you
11:39:13 <yorick> Phantom_Hoover: stop helping me
11:39:44 <yorick> cells are unsigned 8-bit
11:44:30 <Vorpal> 'Note that even very well-known de facto uses of EtherTypes are not always recorded in the IEEE list of EtherType values. For example, EtherType 0x0806 (used by ARP) appears in the IEEE list only as "Symbolics, Inc., Protocol unavailable."'
11:45:35 <yorick> Phantom_Hoover: anything lower than 74
11:46:14 <yorick> (the idea is to print a string "CodeCup")
11:46:48 <EgoBot> 80 +++++++++++[>+++++++++>++++++>++++++++++>+<<<<-]>>+.>+.<<+.+.>.>++++++.-----.>-. [400]
11:46:49 <Vorpal> that will iirc include a newline
11:46:56 <Vorpal> and it is rather stupid
11:47:04 <Vorpal> yeah, doesn't help you much
11:47:18 <yorick> that's 74 without the \n
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11:48:53 <Vorpal> yorick, anyway there are obvious ways to make that shorter, due to the competition nature of the thing I won't help you with that though
11:49:09 <Phantom_Hoover> yorick, I can get 67,100,111 in 47 characters, but that's probably not enough.
11:54:31 <yorick> I am reusing the C already
12:02:58 * yorick should put an ignore on that line
12:07:55 <yorick> I should somehow be able to take advantage of the fact that they are all one more than a multiple of 11
12:08:49 <Vorpal> indeed you should. And 11 is probably shorter as a a calculation of something else
12:09:54 <yorick> +++++[>++<-]+ <-- that's 13
12:10:08 <yorick> well...its size is 13, it calculates 11
12:10:25 <yorick> +++[>+++<-]++ <-- that's also 13
12:14:33 <fizzie> There is that list of constants at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_constants but of course for a longer string it most likely is not sensible to just concatenate those.
12:16:09 <fizzie> The text generator used by the bot can do it in 73 characters with the "-t 3" flag and no newline.
12:20:31 <fizzie> (I sure hope I didn't accidentally help.)
12:21:45 * yorick will not look at the textgenerator
12:21:49 <yorick> and I already knew about the constants
12:27:14 <yorick> I also have it in 73 chars :/
12:32:10 <fizzie> The text generator is limited to programs of that very simple form, so it's not going to figure out anything very clever. (No nested loops or anything.)
12:32:22 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: HMMMMM!
12:32:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor's hg repository for the esologs cuts of at the exact same byte as clog's!
12:33:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, um, it fetches from clog afaik
12:33:41 <Vorpal> it is just his way to store clog data
12:34:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, your own client may log
12:34:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, same goes for your bouncer
12:34:20 <fizzie> I don't know of any other public logs.
12:34:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, maybe time to set up something yourself?
12:34:42 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm interested in the logs from when I was offline and my computer off.
12:34:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so use a bouncer on a vps :P
12:35:37 <fizzie> Spare no expense! What's more important, your next lunch or adequate #esoteric log coverage?
12:35:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, a VPS? No. Or rather: depends. Not for general use though, and I have my own bouncer on a server on my lam
12:36:10 <Vorpal> but there are reasonable free public shell services. A few at least.
12:36:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Do you have logs for last night, and will you give them to me?
12:36:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, 1) yes I have them 2) why should I, you have been acting like a jerk towards me most of the time
12:36:52 <fizzie> Didn't you go through this already? At least I think I saw something like that in the logs.
12:37:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, why should I trust you? ehird has too much influence over you. And he promised similar things in the past for me providing some info only I had....
12:37:54 <Vorpal> and um that didn't exactly work out well
12:38:05 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Here's an idea: reform as a cube.
12:38:17 <Vorpal> more people should do that
12:38:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Phantom_Cuber.
12:39:40 <fizzie> Phantom_Cuber: You should put that in your CV, that's a really nice way of putting it.
12:39:53 <fizzie> "I'm not that much of a jerk." Definite hiring potential.
12:39:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Cuber, how old are you now again?
12:40:13 <Vorpal> what? really? I thought you refused to tell people?
12:40:29 <fizzie> 6227020800 years; an ancient.
12:40:34 <Vorpal> if you are that desperate for logs, you are addicted or something, can't be healthy :P
12:42:47 <Vorpal> okay I will filter out private info from logs
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12:43:57 <Phantom_Cuber> I suppose I should point out that I'm not actually 13.
12:44:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Cuber, so how old are you really?
12:45:49 <Vorpal> I hope that you really stop being so much of a jerk though, probably not likely, but oh well...
12:46:17 <Vorpal> http://sprunge.us/CXgQ
12:46:38 <Vorpal> Phantom_Cuber, and why did you not consider asking fizzie? It is well known he keeps logs after all
12:47:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Cuber, why what?
12:47:45 <Vorpal> 11. Security Considerations
12:47:45 <Vorpal> This document is about security; as such, there are no additional
12:47:45 <Vorpal> security considerations.
12:48:00 <Vorpal> a bit silly to even need to include such a section in an RFC
12:48:24 <Vorpal> (from "RFC 5062 - Security Attacks Found Against the Stream Control Transmission Protocol (SCTP) and Current Countermeasures")
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12:52:01 <Flonk> Guys, whats your HTML Editor of choice (Windows)? I've tried Dreamweaver for some days now, but its just too heavy.
12:53:12 <Vorpal> (but I use a text editor with syntax highlighting for html, I don't know any windows apps, but surely something like emacs has been ported)
12:56:35 <fizzie> There's a Windows port of gvim, that's not too shabby. It's not exactly an "HTML Editor" though.
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13:49:47 <yorick> yay, I got a solution in 70 *O*
13:53:25 <Zuu> Ohnoes! a solution!
13:53:53 * Zuu mixes in some chemicals in an attempt to neutralize the solution
13:54:28 <yorick> Zuu: a solution to the "make the smallest possible BF code that prints "CodeCup""
13:55:05 * Zuu looks at his selection of chemicals ...
13:55:21 <Zuu> Yeah.. i dont have what it takes to neutralize that :/
13:55:49 <yorick> +++++++++++[->+++[->++>+++>+++<<<]>>+<<<]>>+.>+.>+.+.<<.>++++++.-----. yay
13:59:09 <Zuu> so what does this give: ++++++++[>++[->++++++<<]>><<]>>.>+>++.<.>++++----. ?
14:01:48 <yorick> it gives 0x7 0x2 0x7 0x2
14:02:07 <Zuu> Pretty close, eh?
14:03:04 <Zuu> Thats probably my first and last attempt at writing anything that remotely resembles BF source
14:05:06 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
14:05:49 <yorick> Zuu: http://pastebin.com/drd9hPyE (give it input C) was my first attempt
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15:03:20 <Zuu> cant say my attempt was very honest since i really just took what you pasted, and removed random characters :P
15:05:40 <yorick> are genetic algorithms any great for bf code generation?
15:07:27 <quintopia> languages that work well for local search techniques for problem solving are ones that have a semi-continuous solution space
15:07:55 <quintopia> the subset of BF including +,-,., and , have this property
15:07:57 <Zuu> While it might not work well for BF i think it works far better for BF than so so many other languages
15:08:15 <quintopia> the whole [] construct doesn't really
15:08:51 -!- alise has joined.
15:09:28 <alise> Anyone have a copy of the logs?
15:10:19 <yorick> quintopia: a testrun of http://code.google.com/p/bf-code-generation/ reveals that you are right
15:10:25 <Zuu> its just a amtter of transforming the loop construct into a [[[[[[[[[ construct, where the number of ['s tells how many of the following characters are supposed to be looped
15:10:33 <quintopia> alise: i was in the room, but i may or may not have logged it >.>
15:11:17 <Zuu> i dont know what the < and > means in bf though
15:11:33 <quintopia> so that only primitive recursive functions can be generated?
15:11:54 <Zuu> quintopia, no its simply a syntactical change
15:12:10 <quintopia> well, i mean, that's cool and all, most biological computers (people for instance) can only compute primitive recursive functions anyway. . .
15:12:32 <Zuu> aaa[xxxxxx]bbb would be written aaa[[[[[[[xxxxxxbbb
15:13:03 <quintopia> yeah, i don't think that changes anything really about the difficulty of GA on it
15:13:28 * alise sends off an email to Faré
15:13:34 <alise> asking him to restart clog
15:15:07 <quintopia> is clog supposed to be more a pun on what happens to drains or shoes that make sounds?
15:15:24 <alise> i think the former.
15:15:46 <alise> knowing Faré's political opinions he'll probably ask me to pay for the restart ;)
15:16:17 <quintopia> alise: i have about 24 hours worth of logs for sure. you want anything recent?
15:16:41 <alise> quintopia: every line after
15:16:41 <alise> 14:25:25 * Sgeo murders Flash
15:16:41 <alise> 14:25:39 <ais523> I think the stdlib version loops once per bit
15:16:47 <alise> (those timestamps may be wrong for you)
15:16:51 <alise> to when I joined would be nice :)
15:17:01 <alise> to reconstruct the timeline later if I ever get around to creating a full log DB
15:19:53 <quintopia> you were in the chan until midnight my time. don't you have logs of that?
15:20:31 <alise> quintopia: i left the channel a few times accidentally though
15:21:02 <alise> loading this 2.6 mb log file is fun
15:21:32 <alise> quintopia: yeah, okay, I only need my quit to my join
15:21:45 <Zuu> whops wrong window
15:22:58 <yorick> http://pastebin.com/UVXyzY2t <-- is this really horrible? it generates BF code from desired-string input :)
15:23:59 <quintopia> I actually have a full log of this channel for the entire time i've been here
15:24:11 <alise> yorick: how does that work for sufficiently big numbers?
15:24:15 <quintopia> but i have a file containing just the last 24 hours for you here...
15:24:24 <alise> quintopia: filebin.ca?
15:24:45 <alise> the timestream must be preserved!
15:24:47 <yorick> alise: it generates code wrong a string between "A"-"z"
15:24:53 <yorick> so no need for anything bigger
15:25:33 <alise> it should totally use dynamic programming or something!
15:26:17 <yorick> alise: it should, that's part 3 of the challenge :P
15:26:50 <quintopia> http://filebin.ca/xnyacp/furalise.txt
15:26:55 <yorick> alise: dutch informatics olympiad
15:27:05 <alise> yorick: laaaaaaaaaaaaaaawl
15:27:08 <yorick> alise: so don't help me :)
15:27:17 <alise> yorick: shouldn't you be coding :)
15:27:22 <alise> quintopia: groan @ filename
15:27:35 <alise> quintopia: 10:23 < alise> oerjanerer ;; you know, i have all that logged
15:27:41 <yorick> alise: just finished part 2...still thinking/planning
15:27:46 <alise> up to 00:55 -!- alise [~alise@91.105.114.37] has quit [Quit: Leaving] :-P
15:28:42 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:28:53 <quintopia> alise: with irssi, it's easier to just dump the entire scrollback buffer to a file
15:28:53 <yorick> part one was make a normal bf code generator, part 2 was make something small yourself, part 3 is make a size-optimizing code generator
15:29:09 <alise> quintopia-2010-10-02-03; what a terrible filename
15:29:30 <alise> ideally some day I'll get a hold of Vorpal's private logs and merge them with the clog ones :P
15:29:58 <alise> i'm too anal to not give it a meaningful name!
15:37:03 * yorick goes looking for something on dynamic programming
15:37:25 <alise> yorick: does it really say dynamic programming?
15:37:32 <alise> i was joking, but i guess it could help
15:37:43 <alise> yorick: genetic programming is usually what is done for this
15:37:57 <alise> !bf_textgen yorick
15:38:08 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes chaos chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc decisionengine drawl drome dubya echo eehird ehird fudd funetak google graph gregor he hello id jethro kraut num ook pansy pi pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh simpleacro slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg
15:38:11 <EgoBot> 44 ++++++++++[>+++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>++.-..+.>. [282]
15:38:13 <yorick> alise: it just says "write something that generates a size-optimized bf-code for a random string"
15:38:35 <yorick> alise: I looked at genetic programming, it appears to be horrible
15:38:38 <alise> yorick: genetic programming will help a ton. dynamic programming won't. the above uses genetic programming, so does everything else
15:38:40 <alise> that's all i'll say :)
15:38:57 <alise> yorick: oh, you don't, like, genetically program from nothing to the string
15:39:15 <alise> i think you start with a regular RLE'd one, and then start mutating that in ways that make it smaller
15:39:17 <alise> i could be totally wrong though
15:39:20 <alise> so maybe ignore me
15:39:48 <alise> yorick: i'd link you to the one egobot uses but *uh* pretty sure that's against your rules
15:40:13 <quintopia> i should think a dynamic programming solution would do pretty well...
15:40:22 <alise> 03:44 < coppro> crap
15:40:24 <yorick> does it use the java thing?
15:40:30 <alise> quoted for prosperity
15:40:35 <alise> yorick: uhh, yes, it does use some sort of java thing
15:40:51 <yorick> does it use the "bf-code-generation" java thing?
15:41:01 <alise> i don't know; however i can link you.
15:41:20 <yorick> the link would contain it
15:41:30 <alise> yorick: no -- egobot has its own copy of everything.
15:41:39 <alise> http://codu.org/projects/trac/egobot/export/114%3A1fe97d50a1d8/multibot_cmds/interps/bf_txtgen/textgen.tar.gz
15:41:58 <alise> no, wait, just .class :D
15:42:04 <alise> yorick: i distinctly recall it was in a cvs repository
15:42:07 <alise> but it *could* have just evolved into that
15:42:49 <alise> yorick: how are they bowlderising "brainfuck"? :)
15:42:59 <yorick> https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/index.cgi/file/1fe97d50a1d8/multibot_cmds/interps/bf_txtgen
15:43:19 <nooga> yorick: hmm, are you Dutch?
15:43:49 <nooga> yorick: did you work on OTS ?
15:43:54 <alise> yorick: booring :)
15:44:03 <alise> <yorick> https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/index.cgi/file/1fe97d50a1d8/multibot_cmds/interps/bf_txtgen ;; this is just egobot's launcher for it
15:44:23 <alise> i'm not sure how dynamic programming would help.
15:44:43 <yorick> alise: I found the .java already :/
15:44:59 <alise> yorick: ohh, right, it's .java
15:45:02 <alise> i was thinking .class
15:45:05 <alise> sorry, i'm dumb :)
15:45:23 <alise> 03:49 < Phantom_Hoover> Wait, doesn't one of Gregor's bots keep logs?
15:45:28 <alise> no, that just mirrors clog
15:45:42 <alise> 04:17 < Vorpal> if you don't have them: your own issue
15:45:42 <alise> 04:18 < Vorpal> I could of course share mine, but why
15:45:48 <alise> "*that* would decrease my average overall snottiness!"
15:46:32 <alise> yorick: that has nothing to do with the algorithm :P
15:46:56 <yorick> alise: it makes it about 28% less readable
15:47:00 <alise> 04:59 < Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, if coppro wants the logs I will paste the link in the channel.
15:47:00 <alise> 04:59 < Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but I see no point in helping you, you seem to hate me usually.
15:47:05 <alise> it's that time of month again for Vorpal!
15:47:22 <alise> at least it doesn't have any malloc()s, sure Java is ridiculously verbose, but you should easily be able to figure out the algorithm
15:47:28 <alise> yorick: oh, i thought that C was yours
15:47:45 <alise> (note: I hate Java, C and Python, so you cannot rebut >_>)
15:54:05 <alise> yorick: congratulations, that's the worst language you've named so far! :D
15:55:05 <alise> yorick: is fucked up in strange ways. But at least it's based on Scheme..
15:59:32 <alise> Vorpal: i was wondering why warzone 2100 was so polished, then i googled it and found out it was originally a commercial game
16:02:07 <yorick> !bf_textgen -g 200 -t 3 abcdefg
16:02:21 <alise> yorick: doesn't it do "$foo" in the launcher script?
16:02:25 <alise> one may want to run it locally.
16:02:34 <yorick> alise: it works locally :)
16:02:49 <yorick> ++++++++++++[>++++++++>><<<-]>+.+.+.+.+.+.+. <-- it brings the world things like this :)
16:03:27 <alise> yorick: yeah >><< is a special kind of stupidity :)
16:03:31 <alise> yorick: just run a BF->BF optimiser on it
16:03:35 <alise> not difficult to elide things like that at all
16:03:55 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined.
16:04:19 <yorick> hmm I should study it, forget all about it and write my own :)
16:04:36 <quintopia> doesn't egobot's do that automatically?
16:04:48 <Sgeo> []........[elidable]
16:04:58 <yorick> quintopia: it should :P
16:05:27 <alise> 07:21 * yorick will not look at the textgenerator
16:05:37 <nooga> http://www4.kingdomofloathing.com/createplayer.php?
16:05:47 <nooga> in KoL are sooooooo awesome
16:06:12 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
16:06:57 <yorick> alise: that was for writing my codecup text thing
16:07:00 <yorick> this is a generator :P
16:16:58 <Sgeo> I see a red robe and I want to turn it black
16:17:35 <quintopia> I want to put it on with my wizard hat
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16:28:11 <alise> 07:37 < Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, why should I trust you? ehird has too much influence over you. And he promised similar things in the past for me providing some info only I had....
16:28:20 <alise> Phanty, you have been CORRUPTED! You HORRIBLE BASTARD!
16:30:03 <alise> 07:45 < Vorpal> I hope that you really stop being so much of a jerk though, probably not likely, but oh well... ;; he's only a jerk when you are
16:34:33 <yorick> are people in this channel generally emotionally instable?
16:35:41 <Vorpal> yorick, only a few of them
16:36:08 <yorick> Vorpal: does that include you?
16:36:38 <Vorpal> yorick, well personally I don't think so, or at least there are far worse people in here.
16:36:49 <Vorpal> yorick, rather it is that I and alise don't get along at all
16:37:06 <alise> yorick: no no it's very simple
16:37:09 <alise> everyone in here is cool except Vorpal ;)
16:37:50 <Vorpal> I would say instead that everyone in here apart from alise, and to some degree phantom_hoover, are cool
16:42:19 <Vorpal> alise, besides you don't get along with Quad*r*e*scence (* to avoid highlight), and a few more people. So your statement was exaggerated presumably
16:42:47 <alise> he's just a troll. and never talks.
16:42:50 <alise> so that doesn't really count
16:44:19 -!- oerjan has joined.
16:46:19 <fizzie> oerjan: E's been plungered.
16:46:43 <alise> oerjan: i have logs
16:47:00 <alise> and, unlike Vorpal (watch carefully yorick -- this is how a professional does it), i won't argue with you before linking them
16:47:09 <alise> http://filebin.ca/xnyacp/furalise.txt, props to quintopia
16:47:49 <oerjan> I MAY STILL HAVE TO BAN YOU FOR THAT
16:48:11 <alise> It's funny because oerjan has ops and never uses them!
16:48:34 <fizzie> "Never" indeed; more oftener than, say, I, I'd say.
16:48:36 <oerjan> those logs seem incomplete as well
16:48:48 <alise> they are complete up until when i got in here
16:49:15 <alise> i can give you those if you want
16:49:35 <oerjan> well unless someone pinged me, never mind
16:50:02 -!- Phantom_Cuber has joined.
16:51:21 <oerjan> < Vorpal> not sure about dumping scrollback though <-- i did manage to do that and start logging into the same file once, but it was a pain i thought
16:52:50 <oerjan> two different commands, and not a common format for choosing a file i think
16:55:20 <oerjan> < yorick> how many have come here this week asking for the smallest way to initialize cells in brainfuck to 67, 100 and 111? <-- we have a wiki page for that, brainfuck constants
16:56:12 <oerjan> the wrapping versions are afaik minimal
16:56:54 <yorick> oerjan: I have found my solution already :)
16:57:15 <yorick> oerjan: and I know about the wiki page, needed something smaller
16:58:25 <oerjan> oh you mean to initialize to all three at once? i guess that might be smaller than combining the separate algorithms.
16:59:18 <yorick> +++++++++++[->+++[->++>+++>+++<<<]>>+<<<]>>+.>+.>+.+.<<.>++++++.-----. it is :)
16:59:46 <yorick> it prints "CodeCup" :)
16:59:56 <oerjan> > map chr [67,100,111]
17:00:59 <oerjan> that looks a little more complicated than what EgoBot's program does
17:01:02 <yorick> (part of the dutch informatics olympiad)
17:01:52 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
17:02:17 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes chaos chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc decisionengine drawl drome dubya echo eehird ehird fudd funetak google graph gregor he hello id jethro kraut num ook pansy pi pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh simpleacro slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg
17:02:43 <oerjan> i cannot see it in the list :(
17:02:44 <EgoBot> 82 ++++++++++[>++++++++++>+++++++>+++++++++++>+<<<<-]>>---.>+.<<.+.>.>++++++.-----.>. [135]
17:02:51 <oerjan> oh maybe it's separate from both
17:02:53 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
17:03:36 -!- FireFly has joined.
17:03:42 <alise> yeah it's an actual interp
17:03:46 <oerjan> it doesn't make nesting loops of course, it's a rather simple algorithm
17:03:57 <alise> because it takes command-line arguments and stuff and blah
17:04:03 <alise> oerjan: yeah i want to make my own now...
17:04:16 <yorick> and I *have* to make my own now
17:04:19 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:04:23 <alise> Zuu's idea of [^n meaning next n instructions are in a loop is interesting... but not that exact syntax
17:04:28 <alise> since that stops you doing [[ (BF)
17:04:41 <alise> not sure how to do it though
17:04:46 <oerjan> yorick: well you seem to have beat it already
17:05:01 <yorick> oerjan: I have not made my own generator
17:06:32 * alise decides to enable viewing window contents when resizing, this *is* 2010...
17:07:40 <yorick> alise: my windows actually scale while resizing
17:07:52 <yorick> and change size when done
17:07:52 <myndzi> hee, i still have that option off
17:08:00 <alise> yorick: i tried that once, it was godawful
17:08:10 <alise> it makes you *think* you have some perception of what it'll look like and you decide how to resize it based on that
17:08:27 <alise> X11 really sucks at resizing though, especially with browsers
17:08:30 <alise> it's quite pathetic
17:09:07 <alise> of course with real resizing the window border flashes. lol.
17:09:21 <oerjan> < yorick> but stop helping me <-- IT'S IN OUR BLOOD
17:09:24 <alise> Linux graphics: Think you know how much it sucks? Nope! More than that!
17:09:37 <yorick> oerjan: but then I'll have cheated :/
17:09:51 <alise> no, no, just credit us as ... creative assistants!
17:10:15 <alise> oerjan: I like how helping people is the deep, dark, horrible flaw in our blood.
17:10:22 <yorick> alise: I cannot actually do that :/
17:10:27 <alise> yorick: we're joking :)
17:11:00 <yorick> the actual live resizing is horrible :)
17:11:00 <oerjan> alise: IT'S NOT PROPER CAPITALISM. well unless we charge i guess.
17:11:33 <alise> yorick: only on X11 :P
17:11:50 <alise> and that's just because X11 is the most hilariously 80s thing ever dreamt of
17:12:08 <quintopia> more hilariously 80s than back to the future?
17:12:13 <alise> let's buy one million dollar server and five gajillion $5 monitors and keyboards!
17:12:30 <oerjan> it cannot be much of an olympiad if you're actually capable of _contacting the outside world_ during the contest...
17:12:31 <yorick> alise: but it has nice ssh forwarding :)
17:12:33 <alise> quintopia: well. in software :P
17:12:36 <quintopia> more hilariously 80s than everything about the show "everybody hates chris"?
17:12:41 <yorick> oerjan: this is just the first round
17:12:43 <alise> yorick: yeaah but toolkits should do that really
17:12:50 <alise> if it just sent down gtk messages and local gtk rendered it
17:12:52 <alise> it'd be much nicer
17:12:56 <quintopia> alise: tell that to my old TRS-80 games :D
17:13:04 <alise> quintopia: fine! late 80s!
17:13:20 <yorick> alise: but then you'd need _toolkits_
17:13:24 <alise> <oerjan> it cannot be much of an olympiad if you're actually capable of _contacting the outside world_ during the contest... ;; "We will now seal you inside a Faraday cage. There will be no food."
17:13:34 <alise> yorick: because you program in pure X-over-socket? :)
17:14:06 <quintopia> that sounds like a brilliant set up
17:14:37 <yorick> and then I'll secretly DLAN over it :/
17:14:48 <alise> yorick: no, no, you get a hole in the wall with a computer in it
17:15:02 <yorick> alise: I'll hack the computer!
17:15:03 <alise> just a keyboard -- without those pesky unneeded F keys and the like -- and a monitor, running only a compile/run button and an editor
17:15:09 <alise> plus some paper on the wall telling you what to do
17:15:13 <alise> good luck getting past that
17:15:24 <alise> oh yeah and it's all baked into the wall so you can't get any of it out
17:15:31 <yorick> it's the part that allows you to run your own code :)
17:15:39 <alise> yorick: in a qemu VM
17:15:56 <yorick> qemu has been proven unsafe
17:16:02 <alise> yorick: qemu inside virtualbox inside ...
17:16:04 <alise> without virtualisation
17:16:11 <alise> oh yeah and the editor is custom and only supports arrow keys, backspace/delete, and typing
17:16:38 <yorick> I somehow don't think this is gonna happen
17:23:06 <oerjan> * Zuu mixes in some chemicals in an attempt to neutralize the solution
17:23:30 <oerjan> A NEUTRALIZED SOLUTION IS STILL A SOLUTION
17:24:03 <oerjan> you probably want to make it precipitate
17:25:55 * quintopia mixes in some chemicals to precipitate the solution
17:28:12 <oerjan> well it _could_ be he doesn't mind solutions, as long as they're not too basic
17:29:22 <quintopia> apparently 2-subscript is unicode. I don't transmit unicode.
17:34:55 <alise> pikhq: You know you're anal when you decode FLAC files just to re-encode them with --best.
17:38:31 -!- Kordalien has joined.
17:39:21 <alise> pikhq: ...how the hell is this .flac file smaller than a --best re-encoding?
17:42:01 <oerjan> alise: ALIEN TECHNOLOGY
17:42:08 <oerjan> it's the only possible answer
17:42:43 <alise> LOLZ NOW I HAVE TO FIND A TRACK THAT'S ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO
17:43:31 <quintopia> does there exist a turing-complete language in which a program's inverse is just that program written backwards? is that even possible?
17:43:50 <oerjan> quintopia: Kayak comes close
17:44:36 <alise> quintopia: i thought about that once.
17:44:48 <alise> oerjan: only close?
17:44:58 <alise> because we don't know whether it's TC or not?
17:45:14 <oerjan> you also have to switch to the other matching bracket
17:45:28 <alise> that's fixable, surely?
17:45:29 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: yes
17:45:33 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: they're jawesome
17:46:07 <oerjan> well yeah you could have a matching system where ) ... ( and ( ... ) are both possible
17:46:20 <quintopia> alise: it's easily fixable in fact. just make it so that at the top level either ordering is equivalent
17:46:21 <oerjan> but i don't recall that kayak does that
17:46:33 <alise> quintopia: how, with nesting?
17:46:43 <quintopia> of course, once below the top level, you have to use the convention you chose at the top level
17:46:46 <alise> you need whitespace-sensitivity :D
17:46:57 <alise> did that with <> and ><
17:47:06 <oerjan> alise: the first ) matches the previous ( because there _is_ a previous ( to match, simply
17:47:25 <alise> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/nopol.txt unfortunately lacks any examples
17:47:34 <alise> hmm wait that ><> ending sequence might have one
17:48:33 <oerjan> kayak is TC iirc. but not all programs actually _halt_, in which case reversing it isn't really _that_ meaningful
17:48:40 <alise> jesus, it would be easier to buy the fucking single and extract the track off at this point
17:48:56 <alise> "kayak is TC iirc. but not all programs actually _halt_"
17:48:59 <alise> oerjan: there is no tc tag on the page
17:49:01 <alise> i imagine it is unknown
17:49:10 <alise> "kayak is TC iirc. but not all programs actually _halt_" <-- just love the redundancy of this
17:49:14 <quintopia> oerjan: well, that's good enough. We only care about reversibility for halting computations.
17:49:38 <oerjan> also you sometimes need to include a bit bucket for tossing information into, if two inputs give the same output
17:49:53 <quintopia> which is something any reversible TC language requires
17:49:56 <alise> quintopia: it could ununhalt unforever!
17:50:01 <quintopia> a place to store unnecessary information
17:50:23 <quintopia> because all function have to be bijections for invertibility to make sense
17:51:39 <quintopia> but "the set of all functions with finite output" is equivalent to "the set of all bijections, possibly with some of the output discarded"
17:52:39 <quintopia> errr.. . ."finite output" should probably be "output sized as a function of input size"...
17:55:07 <quintopia> one thing i don't like about kayak (and other reversible languages like befreak) is they include arbitrary rules just to force reversibility
17:55:22 <quintopia> like "In addition, code must result in an empty temporary register when the structure is exited."
17:56:03 <quintopia> it would be nice if the limitations on the language fell out of the semantics of provided instructions rather than externally imposed limitations.
17:57:19 * oerjan once pondered how to do reversible jumps in a way that didn't depend on a jump target having to be a jump itself
17:57:38 <quintopia> Phantom_Cuber: Burro has some neat constructs, but reversible brainfuck pulled off the whole "set of programs form a group under concatenation" thing better IMO
17:58:26 <oerjan> that's similar. i thought you could have jump flag, which was toggled by the jump instruction. if the target wasn't an instruction toggling the jump flag, the machine would just _keep on_ jumping
17:58:38 <alise> don't count as "reversible"
17:58:43 <alise> f(x,y) = (x+y, x-y)
17:58:45 <oerjan> it could even have a delay for pipelining
17:59:29 <oerjan> a sort of "you cannot change the jump countdown if it is between -N and N"
17:59:42 <quintopia> alise: or f(x,y)=(x,x+y) or (y,x+y)
18:00:44 <oerjan> quintopia: the simple version with just a flag, or the pipelining version?
18:01:08 <quintopia> i'm guessing the flag thing is like unto Burro's implicit loop?
18:01:33 <alise> now if i buy the single, i need a usb optical drive
18:02:14 <alise> yeah but this is all for the sake of having a flac version rather than mp3 :)
18:02:21 <oerjan> you'd have a program counter as usual, and then a jump destination register. if at the end of an instruction the jump flag is set, then those two registers are switched
18:02:29 <alise> (that's for a SINGLE! on CD!)
18:02:39 <quintopia> you mean like a jump with offset instead of a jump to destination directly?
18:02:57 <oerjan> it doesn't have to be an offset
18:03:13 <oerjan> it _could_ be that instead, of course
18:03:51 <quintopia> so you store the destination to jump back to in your main register before toggling the jump flag
18:04:51 <oerjan> oh and the jump flag is _not_ toggled by the jumping itself
18:04:59 <oerjan> that's essential for reversibility
18:05:01 <alise> can someone *please* explain to me how on earth a CD single can cost £76.95 :)
18:05:35 <oerjan> but if the destination address contains an instruction toggling the jump flag, everything works as expected
18:06:11 <quintopia> hard to see what makes it reversible
18:07:07 <oerjan> then after the destination instruction has been performed, since the jump flag is still set, the program counter and the destination register are switched _again_
18:07:58 <oerjan> you'd essentially keep jumping back and forth every other instruction until something toggles the flag, i think
18:08:20 <oerjan> (the usual increment of program counter would apply as well, of course)
18:09:05 <quintopia> so the jump jumps to what was in the dest register BEFORE or AFTER swapping?
18:09:24 <oerjan> you could also include a flag for reversing execution direction in this, that's useful for "cascades" which compute something, store the result then uncompute again to save memory
18:09:50 <oerjan> quintopia: AFTER swapping the program counter _is_ the old destination register
18:10:11 <oerjan> jumping is just changing the program counter, after all
18:10:24 <quintopia> so you're swapping the PC with the dest register
18:11:30 <quintopia> so what if i want to jump from A to B then from B+6 to C? how does that look in the reversed version?
18:13:21 <oerjan> well after unperforming instruction C, presumably the destination register will contain B+7, and the jump flag is set, so it is swapped with the PC, which is then decremented, the B+6 instruction un-unloaded, etc.
18:13:56 <oerjan> the B+6 instruction should toggle the flag, as should the B instruction
18:14:17 <oerjan> well all of those instructions mentioned need to toggle the flag
18:14:27 <quintopia> oh because they had to toggle it to begin with, they'll toggle it now too
18:14:40 <quintopia> so where's the language based on this?
18:15:22 <quintopia> so what does the pipelined version do?
18:17:27 <oerjan> you'd have a jump preparation flag and a jump countdown register instead of just a jump flag
18:18:32 <oerjan> er call that jump countdown flag
18:19:08 <oerjan> while the JCF is set, the JCR is decremented after each instruction. when JCR=0 swap as above.
18:20:33 <oerjan> the pipelining is effected by some additional restrictions: you can only toggle the JCF when JCR is _outside_ some [-N,N] interval, and you can only change the JCR explicitly when the JCF is off, and never to a value in [-N,N]
18:21:10 <oerjan> this prevents all changing of scheduled jumps that are within a too short distance
18:22:46 <oerjan> whether this would be very useful is another question
18:22:49 <quintopia> so you write a program that knows when it is going to jump so that it can put the branch instruction into the pipeline in advance?
18:23:18 <oerjan> yeah, and so it can load instructions at the destination in advance as well
18:23:31 <oerjan> because it knows in good time when it will switch over
18:26:22 <oerjan> "bf2kayak.pl is a Brainfuck-to-Kayak compiler, written in Perl. I haven't tested it carefully, but it works with some simple programs. I hope this will resolve any lingering doubts as to the Turing-completeness of Kayak."
18:26:41 <oerjan> (from http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/kayak/doc/kayak.html)
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18:32:31 <zzo38> What is wrong with the log program?
18:33:16 <zzo38> Today's file is there, but empty.
18:34:40 <zzo38> Perhaps if they did it like how CthulhuIRCd does the log, it might work better, but I don't know for sure.
18:35:17 <zzo38> (i.e. on the server side)
18:35:42 <quintopia> http://filebin.ca/qfbjap/zzo38.txt this is the last ~24 hours
18:36:41 <zzo38> quintopia: Well, it is a bit different format than the clog
18:37:00 <zzo38> It is also a different timezone
18:37:38 <quintopia> well forgive me for not being perfect
18:38:19 <zzo38> I am just mentioning that the format is different.
18:43:18 <zzo38> This is another kind of IRC log format (so that you will not get mixed up with timezones): http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/textfile/miscellaneous/SIRCL
18:44:28 <alise> quintopia: not that old school, they only offered redirection way back right?
18:44:34 <alise> whereas that points to zzo38's actual computer afaik
18:45:16 <quintopia> they've been doing dns for years too
18:46:01 <Phantom_Cuber> zzo38, incidentally, did anyone else express their displeasure with the addition of Dottyweb to articles?
18:46:39 <alise> i dunno if i got around to saying so on the talk page
18:46:40 <zzo38> Phantom_Cuber: No. Nobody expressed anything about the addition of Dottyweb to articles. (Although I did put it in the summary text so that you can complain on the Talk page)
18:46:52 <alise> zzo38: can i be lazy and complain here?
18:47:21 <alise> i'd be fine with it if we had a discussion about it first and agreed on it
18:47:22 <zzo38> alise: You can, but that won't affect my decision unless you complain on the Talk page.
18:47:37 <alise> i'm not going to complain in one specific place just because you want me to...
18:47:42 <zzo38> And then we can have a proper discussion about it with everyone else on the wiki at any time.
18:48:03 <alise> generally the discussion comes before the change
18:48:11 <zzo38> alise: It does not have to be on a specific Talk page, just put your complaints in any wiki page that is relevant.
18:49:12 <alise> i don't mind a discussion on the wiki, but i don't think i should have to initiate it, as i didn't make the changes
18:50:34 <zzo38> OK, I will initiate the discussion on the page of the wiki instead, though. http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Help_talk:Dottyweb
18:50:43 <zzo38> Is that sufficient?
18:50:54 <alise> Sure, I'll write some sort of reply.
18:54:01 <alise> zzo38: I have added a comment, and so has Phantom_Cuber.
18:55:43 <alise> coppro: am I in time for mathNEWS?
18:56:45 <alise> coppro: how long do I have? :P
18:56:49 <coppro> you have at least 30 more hours
18:57:28 <alise> coppro: oh, it's assembled on Monday, not Sunday?
18:57:39 <alise> i thought monday was just when you guys printed it or whatever
18:58:21 <coppro> Monday is the writing/proofing night, then the editors spend Tuesday doing layout and Wednesday it gets sent to the printer
18:58:27 <coppro> Friday it gets released
18:59:02 <alise> oh, that's much more time than I thought, then
18:59:17 <alise> I thought Sunday was a crazy day of proofing and layout and Monday it was sent to the printer, from what you said
19:00:39 <alise> did you get my link to the draft? i'm not sure whether i've got my crazyML right :)
19:01:03 <zzo38> I will stop adding the {{.file| templates to things that I did not write myself. (If you think it should be removed from the other pages that I did not add it to, please do so yourself.)
19:01:59 <coppro> alise: I did, but I have not read it
19:02:08 <coppro> and I do not have time right now. I have to go sort boardgames
19:08:58 <zzo38> I would like to know if there is any other IRC software that does channel log on the server.
19:09:41 <alise> zzo38: cmeme used to
19:09:43 <alise> but then it dieded
19:10:48 <alise> lambdabot doesn't; nor fungot or EgoBot or HackEgo
19:10:48 <fungot> alise: oh. what'd he want?
19:10:50 <alise> just clog and botte
19:11:11 <fizzie> I don't think any of those are IRC servers that do server-side logging, which is what I think was asked.
19:11:34 <Phantom_Cuber> Oh, look. TV Tropes continues its march towards formal bureaucracy.
19:11:35 <fizzie> Based on the earlier thing about CthulhuIRCd.
19:11:39 <fizzie> But I might misinterpret.
19:11:39 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes it is what I ask
19:11:54 <Phantom_Cuber> Please don't list it on a work's page as a trope. Examples can go here. " This is on the Crazy Awesome page.
19:12:35 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: :'(
19:12:47 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: If it depresses you, browse WardsWiki a bit.
19:12:50 <alise> It cheers anyone up.
19:12:55 <alise> Well, any hopeless programming nerd.
19:13:06 <alise> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki I even clickified it for you!
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19:17:04 <quintopia> dear #esoteric: who wants me to document Hofstadter's typogenetics on the wiki?
19:21:31 <quintopia> i will do it if two more people respond
19:22:20 <Phantom_Cuber> I want to know what it is, so I suppose that's a "yes".
19:24:00 <Phantom_Cuber> OK, Nightmare Fuel is now classified as a subjective trope.
19:24:11 <Phantom_Cuber> i.e. it shouldn't be listed on the articles for works.
19:24:57 <lambdabot> forall a. (Integral a) => a -> a -> a
19:25:13 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: xDDD
19:25:18 <alise> quintopia: is that the TNT stuff?
19:25:28 <alise> quintopia: make sure to use the proper unicode though... at least i think he used some non-ASCII stuff
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19:25:47 <Phantom_Cuber> alise, the whole subjective trope list is depressing.
19:26:01 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Changing host).
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19:26:07 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: Who runs the thing, anyway?
19:26:12 <alise> Not even http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_Tropes lists.
19:26:31 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: truly depressing
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19:26:36 <alise> TV Tropes is not Wiipedia!
19:27:26 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: stop it. stop.
19:27:31 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: is Big Bad on there
19:27:36 <alise> morals aren't objective!
19:27:39 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: put it on
19:29:04 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: LET'S FORK IT! (no)
19:29:47 <alise> TV Tropes: It's popular, now it sucks.
19:29:50 <Phantom_Cuber> Which is *about the fandom's reaction*, not the work itself.
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19:33:38 <alise> MAGNIFICENT BASTARD IS SUBJECTIVE?
19:33:41 <alise> EVERY FUCKING THING IS SUBJECTVIE!!!!
19:35:16 <Phantom_Cuber> Fast Eddie seems to have something to do with this.
19:36:19 <quintopia> alise: TNT is not a programming language per se. it has no imperative element to it.
19:36:57 <quintopia> typogenetics is the programming language designed to model the complexity of DNA/RNA/proteins
19:37:29 <alise> quintopia: oh that one
19:37:37 <alise> quintopia: also, many languages have no imperative element.
19:37:41 <alise> such as the lambda calculus
19:38:30 <quintopia> they usually have some implicit imperative element though
19:38:47 <alise> even if they don't...
19:38:48 <quintopia> like "evaluate this function by name"
19:38:49 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: [[Works for a major videogame producer as a hackist. Which is why he never goes into the Videogames section. Ever.
19:38:49 <alise> About to be fired unless he starts doing more matrix-algebraic hackitation than Tropering.]]
19:38:52 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: IRRITATING USE OF HACK
19:38:57 <alise> quintopia: that's a model in an imperative universe
19:38:59 <alise> not the language itself
19:39:26 <Phantom_Cuber> alise, never trust someone who actually calls themselves a hacker.
19:39:33 <quintopia> alise: no, but it is an imperative element of the universe in which the language finds itself
19:40:00 <quintopia> TNT on the other hand is in a universe purely dreamed of for the declaration and specification of theorems
19:40:03 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: Or is Eric S. Raymond.
19:40:13 <quintopia> not for the specification of algorithms to decide them
19:40:24 <alise> quintopia: i think you're wrong but whatever, it's irrelevant :P
19:40:25 <Phantom_Cuber> alise, that's the Fundamental Theorem of Trustworthiness.
19:41:09 <quintopia> alise: do you draw any line between "programming language" and "formal system for typographic manipulation"?
19:41:29 <alise> from a page he links:
19:41:33 <alise> "Irish Travellers are not Gypsies, yet they are often called so by Gadjo (non-Gypsies)."
19:41:34 <coppro> alise: the code paragraphs are indented
19:41:40 <alise> quintopia: not really. maybe. bleh, whatever
19:41:44 <alise> coppro: the code paragraphs aren't
19:42:00 <alise> coppro: or, are you actually testing with the system or something?
19:42:21 <coppro> no, I was just looking at the previous issue
19:43:03 <alise> coppro: oh, right, i see
19:43:09 <alise> coppro: is the "print" line indented?
19:43:11 <alise> beyond the while statement
19:44:04 <alise> (also, is it actually shown as monospaced??)
19:54:56 <alise> coppro: bah! busy sorting board games no doubt
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19:57:10 <zzo38> Are you mad that I put too much money in your tea?
19:58:23 <alise> Yes, I like my tea to be cheap.
20:01:08 -!- iGO has joined.
20:01:36 <quintopia> what if the money is made of . . .tea leaves?
20:01:46 <flippo> Money is filthy, teaming with germs
20:02:25 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:02:59 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
20:04:31 <Phantom_Cuber> alise, incidentally, today's top story in the Edinburgh Evening News:
20:05:19 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: do they like the trams or not
20:05:47 <Phantom_Cuber> Where normal tabloids have pedos, the EEN has trams.
20:06:10 <alise> Link me to this site
20:06:22 <Phantom_Cuber> "TRAM BOSSES HAVE NO PLANS TO REPAIR CRACKED FOUNDATIONS"
20:06:41 <Phantom_Cuber> "TRAM WARS AS GERMAN CONTRACTOR WALKS OFF THE JOB"
20:08:09 <alise> "TRAM SHIFTS FOR POPE"
20:08:14 <zzo38> I played D&D game a few days ago, I try to win without making anyone else dead, I already managed to avoid kill the mindflayer and to sabotage the bell, now we can convince them the god Mask is dead
20:09:03 <zzo38> Many people do not like this kind of game they prefer to kill everyone and to avoid too much complicated ideas
20:09:23 <Phantom_Cuber> At one point they talked about the dangerous level of carbon given off by tram works.
20:10:11 <alise> zzo38: I prefer to kill everyone in real life.
20:10:11 <flippo> Seem to be a lot of quotes from tories.
20:10:24 <Phantom_Cuber> "OWN GOAL FOR COMPUTER GAMES FAN ROBBED OF NEW TITLE WITHIN MINUTES"
20:10:39 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: what xD
20:11:00 <zzo38> alise: O, you prefer to kill everyone in real life? Include you?
20:11:14 <alise> zzo38: Yes; me after everyone else.
20:11:17 <alise> Canada is next on my list.
20:11:18 <Phantom_Cuber> alise, not one paragraph in that article is more than a sentence long.
20:11:27 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: Do link. Before you die.
20:11:44 <Phantom_Cuber> http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/Own-goal-for-computer-games.6562082.jp
20:12:02 <alise> Or Java Page? Who knows.
20:12:22 <Phantom_Cuber> "GIRLS WHO LEAVE SCHOOL EARLY MISSING OUT ON VITAL CANCER JAB"
20:12:26 <zzo38> I play D&D game try to don't kill everyone, is more interesting than the other way, isn't it?
20:12:46 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: CANCER jab???? What
20:12:51 <alise> zzo38: Yes. But in real life...
20:13:21 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: lawwwl
20:13:31 <zzo38> The people may be the biggest problem in real life, but that doesn't mean it is one that ought to be fixed. (At least not for another million years or so, if ever)
20:14:46 <alise> zzo38: Too late, I am already doing so.
20:15:32 -!- augur has joined.
20:15:57 <alise> A new 2D Worms game for the PC.
20:16:08 <alise> The day, I saw thought, never.
20:16:45 <alise> LESS TRAMS MORE WORMS
20:18:19 <quintopia> alise is making better nonsense than the newspaper
20:18:34 <alise> quintopia: Only nonsense to the uninformed, my friend!
20:19:04 <quintopia> "The day, I saw thought, never." this makes no sense to anyone informed or not
20:19:57 <quintopia> it's still not a very good sentence
20:20:04 <alise> Well, you know what I mean. :P
20:22:27 <Phantom_Cuber> This is obviously the catastrophe the Mayans predicted!
20:30:25 -!- ehird has joined.
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20:32:54 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: quintopia: was that you?
20:33:24 * Sgeo is not that evil
20:33:38 <Sgeo> Unless I said something like "This isn't actually ehird"
20:35:08 <quintopia> but i just walked into the kitchen and somehow i've got a really tasty spice smell on my fingers now
20:36:41 <alise> Who wants to give me lot sof money?!
20:37:13 <alise> did anyone whois that ehird when it was online?
20:37:34 <Sgeo> * ehird (d55ec16e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.94.193.110) has joined #esoteric
20:37:44 <Sgeo> If that's any help
20:39:55 -!- Flonk has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914125854]).
20:43:48 <fizzie> There's the IP, though; a hotel in Dublin.
20:44:35 <quintopia> that sounds hard to fake, but useless for identification
20:50:01 <quintopia> check this out: https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=1xMe6RAsshEhAfbyrJQggLZV6-buMvZFYCj-v9N-uGE6nphQm_Iw2rw5IulhV&hl=en&authkey=CO78idQG
20:52:53 <fizzie> Aw, the name *was* in use, then! (Re the "Grasp" draft at http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Fizzie I sketched.)
20:55:49 <Phantom_Cuber> Why are there so few languages that look nice when printed?
20:56:41 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: Because.
20:58:05 <Phantom_Cuber> Wait, someone announced that Duke Nukem Forever was going to be released?
20:59:35 <Phantom_Cuber> <ais523> So, I got that Feather spec and implementation finished.
21:00:50 <Phantom_Cuber> Stallman: "Hey guys! The HURD is finished! Now stop using that silly Linux thing."
21:01:12 -!- comex has changed nick to TheLastPOPE.
21:01:15 <quintopia> fizzie: the major flaw with the spec i linked that i commented on to the authors when i first read it last year was that it didn't have the property you specify in your sketch
21:01:33 <quintopia> fizzie: in particular, i would love to see a merging of your idea and the ideas in the above spec
21:02:06 -!- TheLastPOPE has changed nick to comex.
21:02:26 <alise> <Phantom_Cuber> Wait, someone announced that Duke Nukem Forever was going to be released? ;; it is
21:02:35 <alise> comex: The past elope.
21:03:01 <Phantom_Cuber> Duke Nukem Forever's nonexistence has been a constant for as long as I have particularly cared!
21:03:31 <quintopia> fizzie: also, your methods for implementing your "main idea" bear a striking resemblance to the methods the authors of Illumination Software Creator use.
21:04:46 <Phantom_Cuber> I still want to do that "FSM in a planar graph with one storage module" idea...
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21:06:15 <Phantom_Cuber> Wherein some form of network transmission protocol would have to be implemented.
21:10:57 <alise> <quintopia> fizzie: also, your methods for implementing your "main idea" bear a striking resemblance to the methods the authors of Illumination Software Creator use.
21:11:00 <alise> that is NOT a good thing :D
21:16:06 * Phantom_Cuber wonders how one would perform subgraph matching in Prolog.
21:16:22 <quintopia> alise: just pointing out how hard it is to be original when creating languages
21:16:43 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: wut
21:16:52 <quintopia> they are different enough in this case that a small modification would give them a lot of merit
21:17:48 <alise> what's a subgraph in this context?
21:22:36 <pikhq> alise: BTW, flac -f --best
21:22:45 <alise> pikhq: I did that.
21:22:48 <pikhq> alise: That decodes and reëncodes, preserving metadata
21:22:51 <alise> pikhq: It ended up *bigger* somehow
21:22:57 <alise> Actually I piped decode to encode
21:23:00 <alise> But somehow the output was actually bigger
21:23:03 <alise> So they must have done something crazy
21:27:23 <alise> pikhq: So, how much would you rage if the only copy you could find of something was an MP3?
21:27:27 <alise> All over the internet.
21:27:48 <pikhq> alise: I currently have a lot of rage because of that.
21:27:51 <alise> pikhq: Also, how about it has the same title as an album by the same band, so you can't search easily?
21:27:54 <alise> ARE YOU FEELING THE FUCKING PAIN
21:28:03 <alise> And how about a new copy of a CD it's on is over seventy fucking pounds?
21:28:08 <alise> (Used for less, but STILL.)
21:29:38 <alise> pikhq: ARE YOU FEELING THE LOVE
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21:31:16 <quintopia> i think you have been here before but not since i have been here
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21:35:08 <Sgeo> Phantom_Cuber, hmm?
21:35:36 <Phantom_Cuber> Sgeo, you just *try* finding a UK channel that shows it.
21:36:13 <pikhq> Phantom_Cuber: I suggest torrenting it.
21:36:13 * Sgeo tends to look for websites :/
21:36:22 <quintopia> Phantom_Cuber: has a TC machine with planar FSM and single infinite storage module not already been done somewhere?
21:36:45 <pikhq> That's the solution to most TV, in fact.
21:36:54 <quintopia> i seem to recall the strong wire-crossing hypothesis being pretty much busted (rule 110 a counterexample?)
21:36:59 <pikhq> Phantom_Cuber: Very yes.
21:37:08 <quintopia> so i feel like it must have been done by now
21:37:12 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: If you don't download the largest filesize option in all cases I will murder you.
21:37:18 <alise> quintopia: it's not totally killed yet
21:37:41 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: KWALITEE
21:37:51 <pikhq> Hmm. Invader Zim ISO dumps. Highly tempting.
21:38:28 <pikhq> (I'm picky about my encodes, mmkay?)
21:38:41 <Sgeo> Fullscreen Flash outside of YouTube is failing HARD
21:39:27 <Sgeo> I get to hear the audio of an episode without any video!
21:39:29 <alise> [[What we're avoiding
21:39:29 <alise> sprintf() breaking in PHP]] --definition of Perl Kwalitee
21:39:32 <alise> what the hell does that mean?
21:39:35 <Phantom_Cuber> pikhq, incidentally, is there a nice way to schedule the torrent?
21:39:55 <Phantom_Cuber> I'd like to watch them in the appropriate order, rather than getting all of the episodes after a long time.
21:42:43 * pikhq fetches some freaking DVD dumps of Invader Zim just to encode them properly
21:43:27 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: Not really.
21:43:39 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: BitTorrent is inherently you-get-random-data, basically.
21:43:44 <alise> You CAN do it, manually, but it won't work well.
21:43:47 <alise> And other clients will hate you.
21:43:51 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: Just download season 1 first...
21:43:55 <alise> It won't take that long.
21:44:08 <Phantom_Cuber> Is there a way of telling it "prioritise the earlier episodes if you see a bit of data"?
21:44:15 <Sgeo> Phantom_Cuber never saw Futurama?
21:44:21 <Sgeo> Also, there are websites >.>
21:44:44 <Phantom_Cuber> Sgeo, I understand this, but it was just never relevant.
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21:46:03 * pikhq also deletes some shitty movies that won't ever get watched again
21:46:37 <pikhq> Oh, and inexplicable 4:3 cropped rips of movies.
21:46:46 <pikhq> Rather gouge out my eyes than watch those.
21:48:02 * Phantom_Cuber notes that all of the major British channels have some sort of online catchup service.
21:50:36 <alise> <Phantom_Cuber> Is there a way of telling it "prioritise the earlier episodes if you see a bit of data"? ;; this makes no sense
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21:58:45 <Phantom_Cuber> So wait, how would you do the subgraph matching in Prolog?
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22:17:11 <Gregor> Somebody needs to make an MMO in the style of adventure games like King's Quest.'
22:24:40 <impomatic> I can't get TclRobots running on ActivestateTcl for Windows :-(
22:27:53 <Gregor> Then what you really need is somebody who uses both Tcl and Windows, innit? :P
22:28:53 <pikhq> Windows is pain and agony.
22:30:11 <impomatic> I'll try it on Linux when I get chance
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22:32:14 * pikhq vomits at the quality of one of the series on his hard drive
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22:33:15 <pikhq> 720p, encoded at a lower bitrate than I do for DVD rips.
22:33:30 <pikhq> I get that h264 is good, but it's not *that* good.
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22:59:15 <zzo38> If you have large capacity disk to store a video, you can store uncompressed video by converting a NTSC or PAL signal to a digital file.
23:00:51 -!- augur has changed nick to augur[reading.
23:00:54 -!- augur[reading has changed nick to augur[reading].
23:04:59 <pikhq> zzo38: That's pretty ridiculous, though.
23:05:29 <pikhq> Especially when you consider that with video, there's generally already been tons of generation loss.
23:13:05 <zzo38> How many mathematical symbols do you need to write whatever article you are writing? Computer Modern contains many, we probably don't need a lot of other ones, but some of the symbols in WEBMATH are I design that might be used in mathematics, such as blackboard bold, therefore sign, alternate empty set,
23:13:42 <zzo38> which others are common enough to include? Probably many can just be composed from overlapping and arranging other characters in Computer Modern and WEBMATH combined, using various commands in TeX.
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23:22:08 <fungot> Phantom_Cuber: i thought you'd be better at playing a gay vampire. and i do believe it's time for my medicine!
23:23:12 <olsner> fungot, whence the need for medicine?
23:23:12 <fungot> olsner: that's right. no. no fucking way.
23:23:58 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa* speeches ss wp youtube
23:24:47 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: Why aren't you better at playing a gay vampire?
23:26:36 <alise> "Helloth for everyone! How are you all, my thweet guestth? [pops out fangs] Ah, that's better."
23:26:45 <alise> IT'S FUNNY BECAUSE GAY PEOPLE LISP
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23:31:29 <Phantom_Cuber> ais523, in response to the recent announcement of the immanent completion of Duke Nukem Forever, do you plan to complete the spec for Feather?
23:31:44 <ais523> Phantom_Cuber: not today, I'm busy in RL
23:33:40 <alise> pikhq: Are you anal enough to purchase releases unavailable online in FLAC solely to correct this injustice?
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23:35:45 <oerjan> assuming it was really imm_a_nent, i wouldn't put _too_ much importance on it ;D
23:36:07 <oerjan> 'of a mental act performed entirely within the mind; "a cognition is an immanent act of mind"'
23:36:19 <pikhq> alise: No, but only due to lack of expendable funds.
23:36:49 <alise> pikhq: But you can get a used CD for like ... like £3-£5!
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23:37:18 <alise> pikhq: Actually £8.99 BUT WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE
23:37:45 <alise> What I'm saying is: Public duty.
23:38:51 -!- augur[reading] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:40:01 <pikhq> alise: Except when what you're missing is obscure.
23:40:43 <alise> pikhq: No, there is an actual item for £8.99 in this case.
23:41:25 <alise> pikhq: Therefore FIX THE UNIVERSE
23:41:42 <oerjan> yeah _someone_ better fix it
23:41:59 <alise> pikhq: DO YOU AGREE
23:42:11 * pikhq hates US jury selection
23:42:19 <alise> pikhq: You cannot avoid your destiny
23:43:10 <oerjan> he _could_ say he is fundamentally against the concept of punishment, the prosecutors would probably through him out :D
23:43:38 <pikhq> oerjan: No, I'm not actually selected for jury duty, I'm just hating how we go about choosing jurors.
23:44:18 -!- Phantom_Cuber has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:44:22 <pikhq> Notable properties include that for any capital cases, jurors opposed to a death sentence are summarily removed from the jury pool.
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23:44:41 <oerjan> ...that was sort of what i was alluding to
23:45:04 <pikhq> Keep in mind that we have a civil law system, wherein the jurors opinions *can in fact set law*.
23:45:30 <ais523> IIRC, you can refuse to accept the notion that the judge sets what information is and isn't admissable for the jury to hear
23:45:36 <ais523> as in, they ask you whether you accept that notion or not
23:45:45 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure what happens if you say no
23:45:59 <pikhq> Also, being aware of jury nullification gets you thrown out.
23:46:43 <ais523> in the UK, jury selection's a lot more determined; they take the first 12 people selected at random, unless there's a really strong reason why they shouldn't judge that trial
23:46:50 <ais523> such as being related to one of the witnesses or defendants
23:46:54 <pikhq> ais523: See, that would be sane.
23:47:01 <ais523> or a member of a particular ancient order of lighthouse-keepers
23:47:27 <pikhq> But here, if you are aware that you can rule against the law & evidence because you find it unjust to do so, *you cannot be in a jury*.
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23:49:03 <pikhq> If you personally try to inform a jury of this ability in court, *they have to select a new jury*.
23:49:07 <pikhq> It is so very fucked up.
23:49:31 <ais523> I've been following the SCO v Novell transcripts, one of them was of the jury selection
23:50:01 <pikhq> Makes a farce of the whole court system if you ask me.
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23:52:01 <alise> <alise> pikhq: You cannot avoid your destiny ;; I mean the music
23:52:21 <pikhq> "n 2001, a California Supreme Court ruling on a case involving statutory rape led to a new jury instruction that requires jurors to inform the judge whenever a fellow panelist appears to be deciding a case based on his or her dislike of a law."
23:53:01 <pikhq> What the hell is the *point* of a jury if they cannot have an opinion on the law?
23:54:02 <ais523> pikhq: the law is written by lobbyists; a majority of 12 random people tend to not be lobbyists
23:54:08 <alise> pikhq: the US is a country based on ignoring its founding principles
23:54:15 <ais523> thus they are not competent to decide what the law is
23:54:56 <cheater99> USA is a country based on COGNITIVE DISSONANCE
23:55:05 <pikhq> ais523: Yeah, fuck the lobbyists with a chainsaw.
23:55:43 <Ilari> Satutory rape... That would be real good source of cases where "not guilty" verdict would be right thing to do.
23:57:52 <pikhq> cheater99: You realise *statutory* rape is consensual sex, right?
23:57:59 <Ilari> That wouldn't change what was the right thing to do.
23:58:46 <pikhq> s/children/17 year and 364 day olds/ :P
23:59:05 <ais523> in the UK, they go to real lengths to protect the jurors
23:59:06 <Ilari> Might also get some talking to, but that's not matter of law.
23:59:14 <ais523> it's illegal to record their faces, for instance
23:59:51 <ais523> photography's banned in courtrooms; it is legal to make a /painting/ of a court in session, but the artist needs to arrange things such that the jurors' faces can't be seen, normally by conveniently putting a handrail or something in the way
23:59:58 <pikhq> ais523: So... You guys actually have juries as a matter of fact, rather than as a body to delegate the judge's opinion onto.