00:01:38 yeah oerjan realised that you dipshit <-- well strictly speaking i only realized it after putting it into HackEgo 00:05:05 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:05:23 -!- augur has joined. 00:05:28 -!- pikhq has joined. 00:15:42 argh the logs cut off about an hour and a half ago <-- someone mail the guy to fix clog, it's broken 00:15:50 oerjan, you do it 00:15:55 oerjan, I don't have his mail 00:16:07 neither do i 00:16:15 who do then 00:16:17 does* 00:16:33 for instance, for a while there was a standard request for passengers to shift their weight to the left, because otherwise the doors wouldn't close <-- awesome 00:16:53 * Sgeo doesn't particularly have much weight to shift 00:17:05 * Sgeo is 111 lbs last he checked 00:17:32 Sgeo, what is that in the SI system units? 00:17:53 Vorpal: ~50kg 00:18:00 ah 00:18:05 that's tiny indeed 00:18:11 * Vorpal is closer to 85 kg 00:18:18 but then I'm tall 00:18:27 * pikhq is something like 80kg 00:18:36 pikhq, 189.5 cm 00:18:59 Vorpal: 180 cm or so 00:19:08 ah, so you are short :P 00:19:14 (well not really) 00:19:26 For certain definitions of "short", perhaps. Ones set by giants, for instance. 00:19:39 pikhq, indeed! 00:20:05 pikhq, I wish I had grown to 190 cm. 189.5 is *soo close* 00:20:09 it is annoying me 00:20:41 What annoys me is non-SI units. 00:21:14 Especially ambiguous ones. 00:21:57 A pound of feathers is heavier than a pound of gold. 00:22:02 Why! 00:23:06 pikhq, what 00:23:20 pikhq, what about a pound of pounds? 00:23:22 A pound of feathers is 454g. A pound of gold is 373g. 00:23:25 does that count as gold? 00:23:44 Because precious metals are measured in troy weights, not avoirdupois weights. 00:23:50 But both use the same names for their units. 00:24:38 pikhq, "avoirdupois weights" <-- really? is it different from normal pounds of other stuff? 00:25:06 The avoirdupois system of weight units is the typical one. 00:25:13 Troy is used for precious metals. 00:26:13 ah 00:26:13 But, an ounce of feathers is lighter than an ounce of gold. 00:26:46 28 g and 31g, respectively. 00:27:02 pikhq, is this what you use? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:English_mass_units_graph.svg 00:27:20 16 avoirdupois ounces to the avoirdupois pound, 12 troy ounces to the troy pound. 00:27:23 Uuugggh. 00:28:17 haha 00:28:40 Vorpal: Yes, except that ony avoirdupois and troy units are in common use today, and the grain, scruple, pennyweight, shilling, mark, dram, clove, nail, stone, quarter, tod, hundredweight, and sack are obnoxious archaicisms in the US. 00:29:02 pikhq, :D 00:29:19 pikhq, you should start using those, just to annoy people. With metric prefixes 00:29:26 The kilograin? :D 00:29:27 like a kiloclove 00:29:34 pikhq, or that! 00:29:56 Vorpal: Oh, it gets worse. The ounce is also a couple units of volume. 00:30:02 heh 00:30:08 what is the mark? 00:30:14 about how large is it in metric units 00:30:32 Vorpal: An ounce of water != 1 ounce of ice, in volume. 00:30:42 I have no mental picture of the magnitude of these units 00:30:53 which i do have for the SI system 00:31:33 pikhq, "decisack", the word is awesome 00:32:48 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:33:04 Vorpal: Because the fluid ounce is 29.5 ml, and the dry ounce is 31 ml. 00:33:12 ugh 00:33:18 pikhq, why on earth 00:33:19 (note: dry units of volume not in common use) 00:33:31 (aside from the peck & the bushel) 00:33:43 "peck & the bushel"? 00:34:06 Used for measuring agricultural yields. 00:34:13 heh 00:34:17 For instance, bushels of wheat, pecks of fruit. 00:34:26 pikhq, iirc mostly m^3 here 00:35:00 Oh, and a barrel of oil is not the same volume as a barrel of water, which is not the same volume as a barrel of wheat. 00:35:13 158L, 119L, 115L, respectively. 00:35:23 wtf 00:35:28 pikhq, you are so crazy 00:35:36 why do you keep using that system 00:35:44 Vorpal: People claim it makes more sense. 00:35:47 Honest to God. 00:36:08 Oh, also: 1 mile on land is not the same distance as a mile on sea. 00:36:30 pikhq, yes but people write "nautical mile" when they mean it 00:36:31 1.6km and 1.8km, respectively. 00:36:34 they don't call it mile 00:36:39 True, but still. 00:36:55 at least in aviation nm is used as the unit on instruments and such 00:36:59 which is kind of fun 00:37:05 since it is not nanometer 00:37:10 but nautical mile 00:38:34 I should note that there is no convenient conversion between cubic inches & units of volume. 00:39:01 only to be expected with a system that wasn't designed but grew over time 00:39:06 (unlike how 1L = 1dm) 00:39:29 There *is* an easy conversion between units of volume and masses of water, though. 00:39:47 1 fl oz. of water is about 1 oz. of water 00:39:59 (it used to be exact before redefining the units in terms of SI) 00:39:59 "about" 00:40:05 ah 00:41:21 Much like how 1L used to be 1kg of water before the SI units were defined more exactly. 00:42:17 indeed 00:42:21 Oh, you want even more of a headache? 00:42:32 heh, go ahead 00:42:44 Each Commonwealth nation using customary units has their own definitions of them. 00:43:11 Oh, s/Commonweatlh/ 00:43:12 how nice 00:43:15 Erm. Anyways. 00:43:40 A tablespoon in Canada is 15ml. In US, 14.79ml. According to the FDA (a US government agency), 15ml. In Australia, 20ml. 00:44:00 A US gallon is 3785ml. A UK gallon is 4546ml. 00:44:20 that's quite a large difference 00:45:02 Fortunately, the length and weight units were fixed by international treaty, so the only distinctions there are land/nautical and avoirdupois/troy. 00:45:35 btw, I should start using kiloseconds, it makes a lot more sense than minutes and hours 00:45:57 ... No, wait, the weight units are *almost* the same. A UK hundredweight is 112lb, and a US hundredweight is 100lb. 00:46:17 And in both, a ton is 20 hundredweights. 00:46:22 So close and yet so far. 00:46:33 pikhq, over here a ton is 1000 kg. And a mile is 10 km 00:46:44 Vorpal: That's the metric ton. 00:46:46 :) 00:46:52 pikhq, and a scandinavian mile 00:46:59 The Us also uses metric tons. 00:47:24 The only thing we abhor more than sane units is consistent units! 00:48:20 pikhq, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_mile 00:48:28 quite a nice unit, if anyone else used it 00:48:40 it is a nice size to be useful 00:48:48 Quite a reasonable unit. 00:48:52 indeed 00:49:02 pikhq, and useful on the distances found in Sweden 00:49:07 Even if it is hectometer. 00:49:17 like, two mil to university for me 00:49:19 Erm. 00:49:20 Megameter. 00:49:21 or about that 00:49:24 The data on my HD is degrading as we speak? 00:49:32 Erm. 00:49:34 THINK JOSIAH 00:49:44 DONT FUCKING SCREW UP POWERS OF 10 00:49:54 You have: 10 km 00:49:54 You want: megameter 00:49:54 * 0.01 00:49:54 And don't yell at me, yell at my dad on my behalf please 00:50:15 Why aren't there SI prefixes for every power of 10 in a useful range? 00:50:20 You have: 10 km 00:50:20 You want: hectometer 00:50:20 * 100 00:50:59 pikhq, because um, imagine having name for everything between giga and yotta, instad of just a few 00:51:11 pikhq, result: even sillier names than "yotta" 00:51:11 Vorpal: It's powers of 1000. 00:51:17 and that would be bad 00:52:04 Anyways. 00:52:11 -!- augur_ has joined. 00:52:32 * oerjan points out that nautical mile actually _is_ a logical unit. well approximately. 00:52:46 oerjan, oh? 00:52:54 Vorpal: It gets worse if you start trying to do physics using traditional units. 00:53:07 Sweden used to use metric units for flight, we don't any longer because no one else does 00:53:18 it's originally the length of one minute of arc of a meridian, useful for sea maps 00:53:22 you can always combine deka/deci and hecto/centi with the standard prefixes 00:53:27 basically it screwed up for altitude calculations with about everyone else 00:53:59 oh Soviet was completely metric too 00:54:04 for flight 00:54:11 but that was about it 00:54:25 olsner: by "you can always" you mean "it's not actually permitted to" afaik 00:54:44 oerjan, dekakilometer? 00:54:45 XD 00:54:55 Vorpal: ft^2°Fh/BTU, anyone? 00:54:56 not actually permitted? who has the power to forbid this? 00:54:58 or kilodekameter perhaps 00:55:01 pikhq, what? 00:55:21 it's not part of the standard, anyway 00:55:29 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 00:55:40 Vorpal: That's a unit of thermal resistance. The foot-squared degree Fahrenheit hour per British Thermal Unit. 00:55:59 pikhq, still flight use two units of pressure, and instruments are commonly marked with both SI units (hPa iirc) and inHg 00:56:15 pikhq, what is the SI unit for it? 00:56:22 Km^2/W 00:56:24 ah 00:56:45 pikhq, what is "British Thermal Unit" exactly? 00:57:17 1055.056 J 00:57:21 aha 00:57:25 how silly 00:57:40 pikhq, now if SI could just get rid of the kg prototype 00:57:46 (1055.05585262 in the UK) 00:57:56 define it in terms of some natural constants or such 00:58:08 it's the heat production corresponding to one second of british parliament discussion 00:58:12 like has been done for all the other prototypes 00:58:50 pikhq, shouldn't "British termal unit" refer to UK always? 00:58:55 Vorpal: Nope! 00:58:59 That would make sense! 00:59:02 I mean, "UK British termal unit" is absurd 00:59:05 Vorpal: they _have_ gotten rid of the kg prototype, i think 00:59:13 augur_: No, it's the remaining prototype. 00:59:19 really 00:59:20 interesting 00:59:22 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur. 00:59:37 There's currently debate over what possible replacement definition to use. 01:00:16 The ones I like most involve defining the Avogadro constant exactly. 01:03:39 number of atoms in a standard avocado 01:05:40 > iterate exp (-1/0) 01:05:41 [-Infinity,0.0,1.0,2.718281828459045,15.154262241479262,3814279.104760214,I... 01:06:02 pikhq: do you have any interest in physics? 01:06:17 augur: Vague. 01:06:30 More practically, I am taking a physics course ATM, and as such have to care. :P 01:07:09 pikhq: check out some of Julian Barbour's work (links to follow) 01:07:16 The Case for Geometry: http://pirsa.org/index.php?p=media&url=http://streamer.perimeterinstitute.ca/Flash/9a93c428-c616-4dca-8713-915277e28056/viewer.html&pirsa=10050060&type=Flash%20Presentation 01:07:38 The deep and suggestive principles of Leibnizian philosophy: http://platonia.com/barbour_hrp2003.pdf 01:14:12 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:17:52 Vorpal: they _have_ gotten rid of the kg prototype, i think 01:17:56 amusingly, it's actually getting lighter 01:18:07 alise: well, magic and all. 01:18:15 but wait.. HOW DO THEY KNOW?! 01:18:28 (i know how they know but it was funny to say XP) 01:18:41 augur, correction "lighter relative it's replicas" 01:18:41 EVERYTHING ELSE IS GETTING HEAVIER 01:18:45 -!- lament has joined. 01:18:48 augur: their 1kg weights started getting lighter 01:18:49 EVERYWHERE 01:18:50 which is indeed not absolute lighter 01:18:58 alise, no 01:19:07 Vorpal: IT WAS A FUCKING JOKE 01:19:16 alise, ah, I just read about this :P 01:19:17 i was saying that everything weighing 1kg in the world got lighter 01:20:07 nice topic 01:20:56 -!- theoros has joined. 01:21:02 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 01:21:06 ok im off 01:21:10 see you in a bit, peeps. 01:21:13 <3 01:21:14 bye augur 01:21:18 lament: why thank you 01:21:27 lament, hi! 01:21:47 quark mating can be a bit up and down, you know 01:22:40 -!- theoros has left. 01:24:17 coppro: if I wrote a comprehensive, referenced errata for that ed in Python post, would it get published? or would i languish here in my infinite pit of despair, envying pizza 01:24:31 but it has its strange charm 01:25:11 /kick oerjan 01:25:22 alise, you desire recognition! 01:25:40 (Or, well, for what you work on to be useful) 01:25:41 no i don't 01:25:44 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 01:25:47 Sgeo: useful? 01:25:54 it'd be the most worthless piece of text ever written! 01:26:04 lament: do you mean i should quit while on top, or that i've already hit rock bottom? 01:26:06 a dry analysis of something probably written in three minutes for the hell of it! 01:26:24 Why does my computer insist that it's 19:26 while everything else insists it's 18:26? 01:26:27 /kick oerjan ;; Ha, ha, our op is retarded and can't type two /s. 01:26:37 pikhq: Your other computer is actually in a wormhole bubble across a timezone. 01:26:43 Some clients don't use two // 01:26:43 alise: probably both 01:26:47 oerjan: i mean i'm gonna beat you up red, green and blue 01:26:49 Some clients also don't know of /say 01:26:54 pikhq: You will notice that if you eject the CD-ROM drive, it will disappear half-way through. 01:27:02 coppro: excellent, i shall get writing immediately 01:27:02 And typing /msg #esoteric /whatever can be a prick 01:27:24 coppro: I cannot let this ridiculous Canadian sloppiness go uncorrected 01:27:33 Sgeo: "can be a prick"? Seriously? 01:27:35 lament: well i guess should expect being met with strong force 01:27:37 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:27:39 *i should 01:27:55 alise, what? 01:28:01 ... Because my timezone got set wrong. Fuuuccck. 01:28:03 I still don't swear like a sailor? 01:28:16 pikhq: No. Wormholes. 01:28:28 Sgeo: I don't think ANYBODY says that :P 01:28:33 Or if they do, they shouldn't. 01:28:37 oerjan, XD 01:28:47 I say it. Happy? 01:30:29 Sgeo: No. 01:30:47 oerjan, I guess the mating quarks find each other charming? Though I guess it is a very strange topic to humans. 01:30:51 -!- dbelange has joined. 01:31:06 alise, watched Sintel? 01:31:18 Sgeo, is it released? 01:31:24 Vorpal: well sometimes they're just meson around 01:31:25 Yes 01:31:31 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRsGyueVLvQ 01:31:33 oerjan, :D 01:31:36 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 01:31:39 Sgeo, not just the trailer? 01:31:48 Does anyone know befunge 01:31:48 coppro: [[Errata for the article "Python Implementation of ed" by *null, as 01:31:48 printed in issue 114.1 of the University of Waterloo Faculty of 01:31:49 Mathematics Student Newspaper mathNEWS.]] 01:31:53 Is the trailer 14 minutes long? 01:31:54 If you want this title to be more precise, it can be. 01:32:14 Sgeo, I thought youtube videos were limited to 10 minutes? 01:32:24 There we go. 01:32:27 dbelange, yes 01:32:28 This one is 14:48 somehow 01:32:32 Sgeo: no. 01:32:36 dbelange, a lot of us do 01:32:37 Sgeo: not for registered thingybobs. 01:32:49 alise, it's Vorpal who asked 01:33:08 [download] Destination: eRsGyueVLvQ.video <-- wtf is .video 01:33:08 But I didn't realize BlenderFoundation was a registered thingy 01:33:33 $ file eRsGyueVLvQ.video 01:33:34 eRsGyueVLvQ.video: ISO Media, MPEG v4 system, version 2 01:33:35 huh 01:33:49 "Your video output acceleration driver does not support the required resolution: 2048x872 pixels. The maximum supported resolution is 2046x872." 01:33:51 yeargh 01:34:03 almost 01:34:30 lament, indeed 01:34:35 Vorpal: I was wondering if Befunge is related to Bungie? 01:34:45 Is this mischan should I ask #alephone 01:34:47 why is dixon banned? 01:34:56 dbelange, I have no idea what bungie is 01:35:03 so I can't answer that 01:35:10 Anyone else 01:35:13 lament: ^ 01:35:27 wtf is bungie 01:35:29 This is the right chan for Befunge questions 01:35:33 Wrong one for Bungie questions 01:35:50 Thats what I'm asking is, there a relation 01:36:05 probably not since nobody here knows what bungie is ?? 01:36:13 Considering that none of us have heard of Bungie, pro.. what lament said 01:36:15 I know Pfhortran is related with Bungie 01:36:19 It rings a bell though 01:36:22 other than stretchy rope 01:36:28 lament lol 01:36:29 alise: don't submit to me 01:36:31 are you talking about stretchy rope dbelange 01:36:36 * Sgeo Googles 01:36:40 Some video game dev? 01:36:50 coppro: i am merely asking for feedback, you... you worthless bear-mauler 01:37:04 Aha! Proof that several video games are made in Befunge! 01:37:09 It can't be a coincidence 01:37:10 dbelange: wait, the company? 01:37:19 Yeah I'm wondering pretty much about video game developing in Befunge 01:37:23 Sgeo: bungie make marathon and halo 01:37:31 since it is pretty much a game already 01:37:36 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to GlennBeck. 01:37:37 dbelange: no relation whatsoever 01:37:39 -!- GlennBeck has changed nick to Sgeo. 01:37:41 you're in luck befunge is pretty much designed for video game development 01:37:41 wait, how is it even a game... 01:37:43 Ok, that nick is registered 01:37:47 lament: xD 01:37:49 alise: But they did make Pfohrtran 01:37:57 it is -- hunt the wumpus! 01:38:15 dbelange: of which google knows nothing 01:38:27 didn't someone have like chess in befunge 01:38:40 alise: Pfhortran 01:38:59 Anyway befunge is like a basic RPG 01:38:59 Ah, it's a language designed for video game stuff 01:39:11 [0x1d378b0] avcodec decoder error: more than 5 seconds of late video -> dropping frame (computer too slow ?) 01:39:13 aaaargh 01:39:27 *goes to sintel website and downloads lower res* 01:39:36 still now I get way less than my monitor 01:40:15 I haden't even heard of Sintel until a celebrity tweeted about it :/ 01:40:18 Anyway befunge is like a basic RPG ;; what? 01:40:24 Sgeo: why do you follow celebrities 01:40:50 ...not sure 01:40:56 Felicia Day, to be specific 01:41:03 Not someone like Brittany Spears 01:41:13 Or whoever 01:41:14 alise: Well you have a man who moves 01:41:35 and there are registers (could be HP, gold, ....) 01:41:42 Maybe this is a better example http://alfedenzia.com/scuttle/scuttle.html 01:42:23 dbelange: i guess you _could_ ask the inventor cpressey if he was inspired by RPGs, he sometimes comes here 01:42:44 Oh ok 01:43:01 Im wondering mostly tonight though (lol) about making befunge into a game 01:43:13 or bringing out its Inner Game XD 01:43:16 there's that other languague 01:43:17 I'd love it if someone just came in here and asked about PSOX 01:43:21 what was it called 01:43:24 Grainfimple? 01:43:26 with mouses and cheese and stuff 01:43:30 well why not, we've already made brainfuck into a game at least twice :D 01:43:36 Oh 01:43:50 lament: Hunter? 01:43:55 Hunter, yes 01:44:11 I'm partial to Taxi 01:44:20 When it comes to those sort of langs 01:44:28 So like increment is treasure chest, decrement is orcs, ... etc 01:44:30 dbelange: http://catseye.tc/projects/hunter/doc/website_hunter.html 01:44:55 ah yes same author too 01:45:42 i am pretty sure dbelange is just fucking with us. 01:46:10 :( 01:46:30 alise: um it's not a weirder idea than many others around here... 01:46:35 -!- Harpyon has quit (Quit: Harpyon). 01:47:04 -!- flippo has joined. 01:47:10 alise: fwiw my intentions are more noble than comp games 01:47:35 the reason dbelange is fucking with us is that he's not actually going to implement this 01:47:54 *noble*? 01:48:02 Townsburg! http://www.bigzaphod.org/taxi/map-big.png 01:48:04 lament: I want to make befunge into a game for didactical reasons 01:48:11 have you read the Diamond Age 01:49:28 -!- bavarious has joined. 01:50:03 Any way I think that a computer game that teaches kids to think in terms of universal machines (TM or s-exps say) would be beneficial no? 01:50:36 I think most games that have been made with this goal in mind have only done regular languages or SOMETIMES context-free 01:51:21 * oerjan is reminded of http://worrydream.com/AlligatorEggs/ 01:51:48 Is Taxi TC? 01:52:52 * Sgeo would love to see turing machines kidified 01:53:02 so for a regular language you might have robot games, or a tower defence 01:53:50 but I think a 2d TM or stack-based thing (like befunge) where registers are HP or caches of trasure 01:54:00 and decrementers are orcs and traps 01:54:18 would be beneficial to kids learning to think 01:55:03 But decrement isn't evil 01:55:17 it is if the stack is empty rofl 01:58:56 rofl ololo 02:00:11 Sgeo, wrt sintel: meh, not what I expected 02:02:33 -!- augur has joined. 02:03:54 augur: hey we got another fag in the channel 02:04:01 * lament points at dbelange 02:04:19 lament, nasty thing you did there 02:04:20 so thats 100% of the channel still, then, ey? 02:04:58 what 02:05:05 dbelange, also pop on empty stack in befunge is just pop 0. If that is what you meant. 02:05:25 anything on empty stack acts as if it popped 0 02:05:31 well ok 02:05:36 Lé sigh. US poverty rates hit 14% of the population. 02:05:38 then how do you die 02:05:49 pikhq, I read that as "USB poverty" first XD 02:05:53 pikhq: hooray! 02:06:04 puberty rates 02:06:06 dbelange, um you mean exit? @ 02:06:20 dbelange, or in befunge-98 you can use q, which pops an exit code 02:06:34 both befunge93 and befunge98 has @ 02:06:35 no I think some crash would be better 02:06:37 which takes no parameter 02:06:41 parameters* 02:06:44 befunge must have bugs 02:06:46 http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2004 02:07:03 dbelange, hopefully not, since I maintain a befunge-98 implementation 02:07:39 dbelange, anyway, you might want to design a fungoid then 02:08:58 No I don't want to build it from the ground "up" 02:10:18 I just think with the proper interpertation and tileset (or diablo style gfx) it would be useful 02:10:23 eh 02:10:25 what 02:10:37 tileset? 02:10:39 huh 02:10:51 for graphics... 02:10:51 you plan on displaying the running program? 02:10:53 interesting 02:11:02 You'd also want an implementation that displays ongoing internals probably 02:11:13 what is wrong with ASCII graphics? 02:11:25 Kids might not like it, I guess 02:11:35 Vorpal have you read the Diamond Age 02:11:38 also how do you display ongoing internals? Befunge-98 has at least 2^32 * 2^23 02:11:41 for the funge space 02:11:45 you can't display that 02:11:47 you just can't 02:11:52 the key is to slowly develop it more and more so that at first it's like 3d 02:11:57 but then it is ascii 02:12:04 and then it is 1010101 02:12:09 I never heard of "diamond age" 02:12:11 I meant the stack (there's a stack, right?) 02:12:30 dbelange: and then it's just 0000000 02:12:42 The display is centered on the player, liek diablo 02:12:42 and then it's just Om 02:12:48 um i think for this limiting fungespace to screen size is ok. or maybe panning... 02:13:00 or ultima 02:13:31 dbelange: there are a number of avid nethack players in the channel 02:13:44 what is nethack 02:13:57 .... 02:14:18 I seem to remember reading that diablo was inspired by nethack 02:14:35 a 2d game with ascii graphics, afaiu. but otherwise very complicated. 02:14:40 Probably the other way around, diablo is pretty old 02:14:47 like the oldest 02:14:49 dbelange, no. nethack is older 02:14:54 dbelange, 1980s 02:15:17 still developed of course 02:15:22 for some values of developed 02:15:24 lol dbelange 02:15:46 coppro, our inside man 02:15:54 coppro, yeah that last comment basically made me label him mentally as "newbie and/or troll" 02:15:55 Nethack's 10 years older than Diablo. 02:15:56 exposing the true nature of the criminals 02:16:33 Vorpal: /msg about the fish plan 02:16:45 Diablo's not even the oldest game *from Blizzard*. 02:17:03 It says nethack was released in 2003?? 02:17:12 dbelange, last version of it 02:17:12 dbelange: try 1987 02:17:15 not the original version 02:17:17 Neither "1980s" nor "active developing" 02:17:25 NetHack is a single-player roguelike video game originally released in 1987. It is a descendant of an earlier game called Hack (1985), which is a descendant of Rogue (1980).[2] Salon describes it as "one of the finest gaming experiences the computing world has to offer."[2] 02:17:36 and it's really just a modified Hack, which is 1982 02:17:43 1985 02:17:48 no 02:17:52 Hack was created in 1982 by Jay Fenlason with the assistance of Kenny Woodland, Mike Thome, and Jonathan Payne. A greatly extended version was posted on Usenet in 1984 by Andries Brouwer. It is licensed under a 3-clause BSD-like license.[1] 02:17:58 1985 is the release of Hack that NetHack is based on 02:17:59 It is a descendant of an earlier game called Hack (1985), 02:18:14 NetHack doesn't really center on the character. YOu know what does? Crawl 02:18:19 alise hates me now 02:18:19 Hack (1982) --> another Hack release (1985) --> NetHack (1987) --> ... -> NetHack (2003) 02:18:25 dbelange: ^ i drew you a nice diagram 02:18:42 Fine, so now that you're done arguing about things that dont matter 02:18:45 I find it difficult to believe that anyone with a taurine host hasn't heard of nethack 02:18:46 how about Befunge?? 02:18:49 Then again, the levels in NetHack aren't freakishly huge 02:18:55 And Hack's more an improvement on Rogue, which is from 1980. 02:19:28 moreover, I find it much easier to believe that a CSCer is trolling 02:20:16 coppro: yes, but drawing diagrams is fun 02:20:19 so why not? 02:20:29 pikhq: hack's a total other game :P 02:20:31 ha ha dbelange 02:20:32 Set --> Grp --> Fag 02:20:44 you're in a club the membership in which implies you know Nethack 02:20:50 dbelange just set his groping option to fag 02:20:58 Hawt. 02:21:00 discuss 02:21:23 wait what is this Fag category 02:21:33 alise :: Fag --> Top 02:21:38 --> 02:21:39 and what is the Grp --> Fag functor 02:21:40 ?????? 02:21:40 i was thinking categories there yeah 02:21:46 dbelange: is that meant to be haskell? 02:21:53 WTF is --> ????? 02:22:01 it is a monad 02:22:02 wow it's actually quite fun to see Sgeo this confused 02:22:12 dbelange, .... 02:22:15 * Sgeo facepalms 02:22:26 -!- dbelange has left ("Until next time"). 02:22:33 i do believe there is some --> thing 02:22:33 Sgeo: Clearly an interesting type-level operator. 02:22:36 but i forget what 02:22:36 but Grp isn't a monad, you need an Eq restriction 02:22:46 well Sgeo got trolled 02:23:17 -!- Kordalien has joined. 02:24:14 I feel guilty about driving someone away, even if that someone is a complete and utter moron 02:24:26 And I still think that the thoughts about Befunge for kids might be a good idea 02:24:39 Although Turing Machine for kids would be better imo 02:24:48 poe's law for esolangs :D 02:25:24 Sgeo: dude, he's not a moron, he was trolling 02:25:27 successfully, too 02:26:51 very successfully 02:27:08 alise, hey, what I'm supposed with the 200 kg salmon that arrived. UPS claims you are the sender! 02:28:35 alise, ??? 02:28:47 Vorpal: what 02:29:07 Vorpal: no, seriously ... what? 02:29:12 alise, fish plan.... 02:29:18 oh. ohhhhhhhhhhhh. 02:29:19 * Vorpal facepalms 02:29:26 i have too much of a headache to get that 02:29:36 hm okay 02:29:38 wait trolls are not a subset of morons? 02:29:53 oerjan: most trolls are intelligent people pretending to be morons 02:30:11 there are however a few morons that are trolls 02:30:18 often rather failed ones 02:30:20 none are any good :P 02:30:28 indeed 02:30:54 What would it look like if I were to troll #esoteric ? 02:31:08 it wouldn't work 02:31:10 NO ONE ANSWER THAT 02:31:18 oerjan, okay 02:31:31 Spiritual gunk, then when told otherwise, try to combine spirituality and computer science? 02:31:46 nah, that's just pathetic 02:42:25 i have discovered something alise will surely find disturbing http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/dlsks/simon_peyton_jones_ghc_7_status_update_video/c115tsm 02:42:45 oh my 02:43:03 oerjan: stop distracting me, I have a mathNEWS article to write by Monday! 02:43:09 i'm totally getting paid for this you know 02:43:16 * oerjan watches alise's worldview shatter into incompatible pieces 02:44:18 or i would if he hadn't applied such hard-handed evasion tactics 02:45:35 Even I find it disturbing 02:46:57 oerjan, what's so earth shattering about it, I can't watch that link 02:47:22 sorry it's secret 02:47:46 oerjan, I don't have flash... 02:48:18 reddit uses flash? mind you i haven't even looked at the video, just the comments 02:48:29 oerjan, no the linked to page 02:48:32 oerjan, oh that 02:48:39 oerjan, but I don't see that anywhere? 02:48:44 maybe in the video 02:48:47 but not on the page 02:49:01 well it's a comment _about_ the video, obviously 02:49:05 hm 02:49:46 oerjan, but "[...] or Reddit communities."? 02:49:55 -!- bavarious has left ("bye"). 02:50:22 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 02:50:33 * oerjan wonders what the heck Vorpal is actually seeing on his screen 02:50:44 i just linked to a reddit comment sub-thread... 02:50:50 oerjan, *oh* 02:52:24 lol Vorpal is stupid 02:52:26 also lacks flash 02:53:50 make a flash player before you recommend it to anyone 02:54:28 Vorpal: also Jameshfisher is obviously being sensationally argumentative like a lot of redditors, i just found what he pointed out amusing 02:56:40 the "[...] or Reddit communities." is just to complain about being downvoted 02:56:54 ah right 02:56:59 night 02:57:09 night 03:00:02 -!- hailtothethief has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 03:18:40 Obviously, hailtothethief is in fact Vorpal 03:19:49 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:26:39 it's that time of year again http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-11447095 03:28:27 * oerjan likes the Management Prize 03:29:56 FUCK FIREFOX FUCK FLASH FUCK THE LACK OF SWAP SPACE 03:30:27 Sgeo: make a big file on your harddisk and then do swapon to it 03:30:36 i THINK you can do that 03:31:12 My harddisk is a 2GB USB stick, with just 1GB of user data space, and .. about 100MB left 03:31:20 But ty 03:33:25 Hmm 03:33:33 Maybe I should learn to play with Blender at some point 03:33:35 3d games 03:34:26 oerjan: yeah, I want to see that paper 03:40:42 Flash just crashed in the middle of me watching something 03:40:56 how surprising 03:46:16 -!- jane1 has joined. 03:47:48 hi jane1 03:50:00 -!- jane1 has left. 03:52:48 -!- jane1 has joined. 03:52:54 hi jane1 03:53:03 hi a;ise 03:53:21 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:53:34 -!- augur has joined. 03:53:50 a;ise 03:54:15 sorry,alise 03:54:24 :P 03:54:41 The crashes are happening much more now 03:56:44 Sgeo: the end is nigh 03:57:00 * Sgeo cries 03:57:23 Maybe an update of Firefox etc. will help? 03:58:04 Ooh, Gwibber gets OAuth 03:58:05 Good 03:58:11 I can now actually use it 03:59:27 Needs too much disk space to update everything 03:59:31 I'm going to cry 04:01:48 -!- jane1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:16:18 -!- jane1 has joined. 04:22:38 -!- jane1 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 04:23:54 Maybe I should try Puppy Linux again or something 04:25:17 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 04:26:28 USB stick might not have been in tightly enough 04:26:48 I wonder if that could be the cause of the incessant crashing 04:41:12 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_errata my favourite page 04:41:22 it gets truly hilarious a bit lower down 04:41:27 especially all the names 04:42:57 "For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted God, adorned themselves, being in subjection to their owl husbands." 04:43:03 I'm quite fond of "Thou shalt commit adultery". 04:44:13 alise: a fowl fate indeed 04:45:09 "Their Owl Husbands" would be a good band/novel name/title. 04:45:57 straight from the howly book 04:46:02 shut up :P 04:46:07 -!- Sgeo has joined. 04:49:34 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:49:51 -!- augur has joined. 04:53:23 Somebody should print a version of the bible that has every error ever known to be printed in a bible. 04:55:46 http://cowbirdsinlove.com/980 04:56:22 "Christ condemneth the poor widow" // Christianity is a very capitalistic religion 04:58:48 -!- zzo38 has joined. 04:59:35 -!- zzo38 has set topic: Are the mating habits of quarks really the subject of ephemeral ontologists? Or would they be more wealthy discussing http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D ?. 05:00:43 I don't even know what this topc message means 05:02:56 s/topc/topic/ 05:05:14 I don't think it's actually meaningful. 05:05:41 I also don't think it is actually meaningful. 05:05:44 -!- jane1 has joined. 05:06:40 It's amusing though :P 05:06:59 OK 05:07:42 Well, it certainly doesn't lack unmeaning. 05:08:03 What is ephemeral ontologists? 05:08:21 Presumably people who study short-lived things. 05:08:39 Or people who are short-lived studying things. 05:08:43 Or --- yeah :P 05:08:45 OK 05:10:37 Why am I so good at not doing anything? 05:10:51 RARGH READ FYTHE SPEC 05:11:07 I'm too busy doing fuck-all! 05:11:22 That's a lot of stuff to fuck! (All stuff) 05:11:26 I did find the problem in the Enhanced CWEB, which I have now fixed. The problem was inserting discretionary breaks after \BIS 05:11:50 Gregor: I'm like Wowbagger with more sex. 05:16:38 -!- jane1 has left. 05:19:03 -!- jane1 has joined. 05:20:39 -!- jane1 has left. 05:39:49 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Quit: Bye). 05:55:14 -!- zeotrope_ has joined. 05:55:36 Goodnight. 05:55:37 Bye. 05:55:45 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:57:40 -!- zeotrope has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:14:07 "Im looking for a bento box, it cant be pinku (thats japanese for pink) or any girl color. It has to be of 2 or more kotoba (thats japanese for 2 compartments) and has be be chibi(small) sized" 06:14:21 My faith in humanity is dying. 06:14:56 "pinku" X-D 06:15:24 "kotoba" is Japanese for "word" and "chibi" is a slang term for a cutesy drawing style. 06:15:42 From "chiisai hito", I think. 06:15:44 What's actual-Japanese for pink? 06:15:52 pinku 06:16:09 Uhh, that's presumably an import from English. What's pre-English Japanese for pink then? >_> 06:16:32 PRE-ENGLISH JAPANESE WERE TOO AWESOME FOR PINK 06:16:39 D-8 06:16:40 tankôshoku 06:16:54 Is that just "light red" compressed or something? 06:17:19 Faint red color. 06:17:29 Or momoiro. Peach color. 06:17:43 Pinku is by far the most common, though. 06:17:58 momotaro 06:18:10 oerjan: Yes, same morpheme. 06:19:26 Also, I had to look up ones that weren't "pinku". 06:20:12 pinku shirtu, domo arigato 06:20:42 oerjan: pinku shâtsu wo kudasai; domo arigatô. I think you mean. 06:21:04 Erm, dômo arigatô. 06:21:08 POSSIBLY 06:21:49 especially if shâtsu is an english loanword 06:21:55 It is. 06:22:22 It refers to button-up shirts. 06:23:38 * oerjan shouldn't talk - the original word "kortbukser" is almost completely replaced by "shorts" in norwegian 06:23:40 Or perhaps you mean: hįnnku siȳâtu wo kutàsai; tồmo arikàtô. 06:25:05 * oerjan wouldn't know, you know 06:25:26 Or perhaps you mean "domo arigato, Mr. Robato". 06:26:19 CERTAINLY NOT 07:12:53 Ò ḥóẅ Ɨ ♥ çőḿṗốŝę. 07:20:00 hiiii 07:28:34 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:32:06 http://www.bitrebels.com/geek/this-pool-creates-waves-in-the-shape-of%E2%80%A6anything/ 07:34:43 cheater99: Awesome. 07:36:03 It's a good thing they got Japan Kramer to check it out. 07:37:04 lol 07:37:17 actually japan kramer is the guy who made it. 07:37:35 I DON'T SPEAK JAPANALANG 07:37:41 All that for safety testing. 07:38:01 They are using that to figure out how to make better safety testing procedures for boats. Seriously. 07:38:12 I thought it was Japan Business Suit Guy 07:38:25 (The guy who made it, that is) 07:38:39 Too suit-y. 07:38:49 He talked more like a businessman than anything else. 07:43:08 I'm not sure what's up with Japan Kramer there. 07:43:36 Especially since he's crazy-Euromerican-looking. 07:43:57 Yeah, I got nothing, and I understood the video. 07:59:37 -!- clog has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:04:28 Did you understand EVERY WORD? 08:04:38 No, but I understood most of it. 08:04:48 Maybe encoded into one seeming-innocuous unrecognized word was a lengthy exposition on the role of each of the people in the video. 08:13:07 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 08:32:48 -!- Kordalien has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:39:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:40:25 Where's clog? 08:40:43 I just noticed that the logs cut off halfway through yesterday. 08:44:30 crap 08:44:32 the pipes are probably... 08:44:35 * cheater99 puts on sunglasses 08:44:37 clogged. 08:44:38 * coppro must figure out how to get a log 08:44:44 YYYYEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!!!!!!!! 08:44:46 becase dbelange was in here 08:48:36 Who? 08:49:17 Wait, doesn't one of Gregor's bots keep logs? 08:49:37 https://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/ 08:52:05 Bah, it doesn't log anything interesting. 08:52:10 At the moment. 08:52:29 By my calculations, we have 2 hours before the next log fetch. 09:00:48 -!- Zuu has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:07:16 calculate wronger then 09:17:02 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 09:17:05 * coppro must figure out how to get a log <-- your own irc client logs 09:17:21 if you don't have them: your own issue 09:18:40 I could of course share mine, but why 09:20:26 Because we don't have any others and we're not always online? 09:24:44 Vorpal: specifically, I meant to figure out how to get my client to dump logs 09:25:00 it has logs of some length 09:25:11 usually about a day and a half in here 09:25:24 sometimes less 09:29:58 -!- iGO has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:33:16 coppro, XChat? 09:37:22 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:44:16 Vorpal: specifically, I meant to figure out how to get my client to dump logs <-- hm... 09:44:31 -coppro- VERSION irssi v0.8.12 <-- okay, no clue 09:44:36 but it should be possible 09:44:46 not sure about dumping scrollback though 09:44:54 which is different from logging I think 09:45:03 logging starts from the point you activate it 09:45:37 coppro, still I could give you logs I guess, they are in a custom xchat-like format and are in the CEST timezone 09:45:45 (which is UTC+2) 09:54:10 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 09:55:15 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:58:26 Vorpal, yes, please. 09:58:44 Phantom_Hoover, not in general, just for coppro specific usage I meant 09:59:03 We all want the logs! 09:59:33 Phantom_Hoover, if coppro wants the logs I will paste the link in the channel. 09:59:58 Phantom_Hoover, but I see no point in helping you, you seem to hate me usually. 10:00:08 Touché. 10:00:51 bbl 10:01:52 coppro, quick, ask for logs! 10:06:40 coppro, since you were just interested in the bit where dbelange was in here, that is all I will include. But now, bbl for a few hours 10:12:19 -!- zeotrope_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:43:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 10:43:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:45:50 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: Welcome honored guest. I got the key you want! would you like onderves. of Yourself). 10:48:25 -!- tombom has joined. 10:49:07 Where was that thought experiment with the sphere of air that approximated the Poincaré hyperbolic model? 11:14:19 -!- Harpyon has joined. 11:27:16 -!- Zuu has joined. 11:27:16 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host). 11:27:16 -!- Zuu has joined. 11:27:37 -!- yorick has joined. 11:28:34 how many have come here this week asking for the smallest way to initialize cells in brainfuck to 67, 100 and 111? 11:31:30 yorick, none that I know of, why? 11:31:32 btw: 11:31:35 $ grep -Ev '^#|[0-9]+/(tcp|udp|sctp|dccp)' /etc/services 11:31:35 cuelink 5271/tdp # StageSoft CueLink messaging 11:31:38 wtf is tdp? 11:31:50 I googled and it seems IANA itself lists it as tdp too 11:31:59 so not just a typo in my local copy 11:32:01 Vorpal: because it's part of the dutch informatics olympiad :P 11:32:25 sounds like cheating helping you then 11:32:46 -!- Salemakoum_ has joined. 11:33:21 Vorpal: tag distribution protocol 11:33:29 Vorpal: I'm not asking :) 11:33:34 hm 11:33:44 yorick, or it could be a typo for either udp or tcp 11:33:54 yorick, after all it is the only tdp port listed there 11:34:01 and: 11:34:03 http://www.protocols.com/pbook/tag.htm#TDP 11:34:03 cuelink 5271/tdp # StageSoft CueLink messaging 11:34:03 cuelink-disc 5271/udp # StageSoft CueLink discovery 11:34:05 that looks suspect 11:34:12 it does 11:34:13 one tdp and one udp 11:34:32 the d is not far from the c 11:34:48 yorick, assuming qwerty 11:35:03 probably a safe assumption though 11:35:04 most people have qwerty 11:36:31 yorick, you know there's a huge table of constants on the esolangs wiki? 11:36:42 If they're clever enough, they'll find that. 11:36:57 * Phantom_Hoover continues to wrestle with DCGs. 11:37:12 Phantom_Hoover: I know that, but I need something smaller :P 11:38:32 Are you restricted beyond what passes for BF's spec? 11:38:46 yorick, if you are taking part in this competition it seems like cheating to help you 11:39:10 true :/ 11:39:13 Phantom_Hoover: stop helping me 11:39:31 I'm not likely to be able to help. 11:39:44 cells are unsigned 8-bit 11:43:25 Wrapping? 11:43:37 What kind of length are you aiming for? 11:44:30 'Note that even very well-known de facto uses of EtherTypes are not always recorded in the IEEE list of EtherType values. For example, EtherType 0x0806 (used by ARP) appears in the IEEE list only as "Symbolics, Inc., Protocol unavailable."' 11:44:31 XD 11:45:35 Phantom_Hoover: anything lower than 74 11:45:51 For each number or in total? 11:46:04 in total 11:46:14 (the idea is to print a string "CodeCup") 11:46:23 hm 11:46:38 !bf_txtgen CodeCup 11:46:48 80 +++++++++++[>+++++++++>++++++>++++++++++>+<<<<-]>>+.>+.<<+.+.>.>++++++.-----.>-. [400] 11:46:49 that will iirc include a newline 11:46:56 and it is rather stupid 11:47:04 yeah, doesn't help you much 11:47:18 that's 74 without the \n 11:47:46 -!- Salemakoum_ has quit (Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://www.roomsapp.mobi). 11:48:13 hm 11:48:53 yorick, anyway there are obvious ways to make that shorter, due to the competition nature of the thing I won't help you with that though 11:49:09 yorick, I can get 67,100,111 in 47 characters, but that's probably not enough. 11:50:15 And that was just concatenating the wiki's constants. 11:50:45 that gives 76 11:52:07 Concatenating and reusing the C? 11:52:31 And adding one for the e? 11:53:01 And the p? 11:54:13 So 'C'.>'o'.>'d'.+.<<.>>>'u'.<<+. 11:54:31 I am reusing the C already 11:55:43 but stop helping me 11:58:08 Alas, poor Yorick. I knew him, Horatio! 11:59:51 Oh, well. That only gets it down to 79. 12:02:58 * yorick should put an ignore on that line 12:03:42 It's not even terribly good... 12:07:55 I should somehow be able to take advantage of the fact that they are all one more than a multiple of 11 12:08:49 indeed you should. And 11 is probably shorter as a a calculation of something else 12:09:30 it isn't 12:09:45 mhm 12:09:54 +++++[>++<-]+ <-- that's 13 12:10:08 well...its size is 13, it calculates 11 12:10:25 +++[>+++<-]++ <-- that's also 13 12:14:33 There is that list of constants at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_constants but of course for a longer string it most likely is not sensible to just concatenate those. 12:16:09 The text generator used by the bot can do it in 73 characters with the "-t 3" flag and no newline. 12:20:31 (I sure hope I didn't accidentally help.) 12:21:45 * yorick will not look at the textgenerator 12:21:49 and I already knew about the constants 12:27:14 I also have it in 73 chars :/ 12:32:10 The text generator is limited to programs of that very simple form, so it's not going to figure out anything very clever. (No nested loops or anything.) 12:32:16 HMM/ 12:32:22 Phantom_Hoover: HMMMMM! 12:32:39 Gregor's hg repository for the esologs cuts of at the exact same byte as clog's! 12:32:43 Hidden Markov Models? 12:33:02 So last night effectively never was. 12:33:35 Phantom_Hoover, um, it fetches from clog afaik 12:33:41 it is just his way to store clog data 12:33:53 Are there no other logs? 12:34:06 Phantom_Hoover, your own client may log 12:34:11 Phantom_Hoover, same goes for your bouncer 12:34:20 I don't know of any other public logs. 12:34:22 Phantom_Hoover, maybe time to set up something yourself? 12:34:42 I'm interested in the logs from when I was offline and my computer off. 12:34:53 Phantom_Hoover, so use a bouncer on a vps :P 12:35:10 Vorpal, do you have one of these? 12:35:37 Spare no expense! What's more important, your next lunch or adequate #esoteric log coverage? 12:35:43 Phantom_Hoover, a VPS? No. Or rather: depends. Not for general use though, and I have my own bouncer on a server on my lam 12:36:10 but there are reasonable free public shell services. A few at least. 12:36:15 Do you have logs for last night, and will you give them to me? 12:36:46 Phantom_Hoover, 1) yes I have them 2) why should I, you have been acting like a jerk towards me most of the time 12:36:52 Didn't you go through this already? At least I think I saw something like that in the logs. 12:37:04 Vorpal, I'll reform! 12:37:47 Phantom_Hoover, why should I trust you? ehird has too much influence over you. And he promised similar things in the past for me providing some info only I had.... 12:37:54 and um that didn't exactly work out well 12:38:05 Phantom_Hoover: Here's an idea: reform as a cube. 12:38:12 fizzie, good idea 12:38:17 more people should do that 12:38:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Phantom_Cuber. 12:38:24 See? 12:38:41 I'm a changed platonic solid! 12:39:22 Vorpal, I'm not that much of a jerk anyway! 12:39:40 Phantom_Cuber: You should put that in your CV, that's a really nice way of putting it. 12:39:53 "I'm not that much of a jerk." Definite hiring potential. 12:39:57 Phantom_Cuber, how old are you now again? 12:40:01 13! 12:40:13 what? really? I thought you refused to tell people? 12:40:29 6227020800 years; an ancient. 12:40:30 I've reformed, remember! 12:40:34 if you are that desperate for logs, you are addicted or something, can't be healthy :P 12:41:01 hm 12:41:06 I want to know who the mystery person is! 12:42:47 okay I will filter out private info from logs 12:43:12 -!- Harpyon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:43:45 -!- Harpyon_ has joined. 12:43:57 I suppose I should point out that I'm not actually 13. 12:44:11 Since I'm not *that* much of a jerk. 12:44:16 See! Reformedish! 12:44:20 Phantom_Cuber, hm 12:44:25 Phantom_Cuber, so how old are you really? 12:44:47 As old as the winds blowing in the trees... 12:45:49 I hope that you really stop being so much of a jerk though, probably not likely, but oh well... 12:46:17 http://sprunge.us/CXgQ 12:46:38 Phantom_Cuber, and why did you not consider asking fizzie? It is well known he keeps logs after all 12:46:53 fizzie, WHYYYY 12:47:14 Phantom_Cuber, why what? 12:47:30 Why anything? 12:47:45 11. Security Considerations 12:47:45 This document is about security; as such, there are no additional 12:47:45 security considerations. 12:47:46 heh 12:48:00 a bit silly to even need to include such a section in an RFC 12:48:24 (from "RFC 5062 - Security Attacks Found Against the Stream Control Transmission Protocol (SCTP) and Current Countermeasures") 12:48:29 -!- Flonk has joined. 12:52:01 Guys, whats your HTML Editor of choice (Windows)? I've tried Dreamweaver for some days now, but its just too heavy. 12:52:22 wrong channel... 12:53:11 alright. 12:53:12 (but I use a text editor with syntax highlighting for html, I don't know any windows apps, but surely something like emacs has been ported) 12:56:35 There's a Windows port of gvim, that's not too shabby. It's not exactly an "HTML Editor" though. 13:19:07 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 13:23:54 * Phantom_Cuber → things 13:28:03 -!- Phantom_Cuber has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 13:49:47 yay, I got a solution in 70 *O* 13:53:25 Ohnoes! a solution! 13:53:53 * Zuu mixes in some chemicals in an attempt to neutralize the solution 13:54:28 Zuu: a solution to the "make the smallest possible BF code that prints "CodeCup"" 13:55:05 * Zuu looks at his selection of chemicals ... 13:55:21 Yeah.. i dont have what it takes to neutralize that :/ 13:55:49 +++++++++++[->+++[->++>+++>+++<<<]>>+<<<]>>+.>+.>+.+.<<.>++++++.-----. yay 13:59:09 so what does this give: ++++++++[>++[->++++++<<]>><<]>>.>+>++.<.>++++----. ? 14:01:48 it gives 0x7 0x2 0x7 0x2 14:02:07 Pretty close, eh? 14:02:16 :P 14:03:04 Thats probably my first and last attempt at writing anything that remotely resembles BF source 14:05:06 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 14:05:49 Zuu: http://pastebin.com/drd9hPyE (give it input C) was my first attempt 14:20:38 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 14:49:49 -!- Flonk_ has joined. 14:53:04 -!- Flonk has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:53:17 -!- Flonk_ has changed nick to Flonk. 14:54:31 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:59:09 -!- sftp has joined. 15:02:15 ok 15:03:20 cant say my attempt was very honest since i really just took what you pasted, and removed random characters :P 15:04:27 heh 15:05:40 are genetic algorithms any great for bf code generation? 15:05:56 PROBABLY NOT 15:06:31 WHY NOT? 15:07:27 languages that work well for local search techniques for problem solving are ones that have a semi-continuous solution space 15:07:55 the subset of BF including +,-,., and , have this property 15:07:57 While it might not work well for BF i think it works far better for BF than so so many other languages 15:08:15 the whole [] construct doesn't really 15:08:51 -!- alise has joined. 15:09:23 Soooo... 15:09:28 Anyone have a copy of the logs? 15:10:19 quintopia: a testrun of http://code.google.com/p/bf-code-generation/ reveals that you are right 15:10:25 its just a amtter of transforming the loop construct into a [[[[[[[[[ construct, where the number of ['s tells how many of the following characters are supposed to be looped 15:10:33 alise: i was in the room, but i may or may not have logged it >.> 15:11:17 i dont know what the < and > means in bf though 15:11:19 zuu: you mean a bounded loop? 15:11:33 so that only primitive recursive functions can be generated? 15:11:54 quintopia, no its simply a syntactical change 15:12:10 well, i mean, that's cool and all, most biological computers (people for instance) can only compute primitive recursive functions anyway. . . 15:12:30 oh i get it 15:12:32 aaa[xxxxxx]bbb would be written aaa[[[[[[[xxxxxxbbb 15:12:36 you're dropping the ] 15:13:03 yeah, i don't think that changes anything really about the difficulty of GA on it 15:13:14 well 15:13:19 it may make it slightly better 15:13:28 * alise sends off an email to Faré 15:13:34 asking him to restart clog 15:15:07 is clog supposed to be more a pun on what happens to drains or shoes that make sounds? 15:15:24 i think the former. 15:15:46 knowing Faré's political opinions he'll probably ask me to pay for the restart ;) 15:16:17 alise: i have about 24 hours worth of logs for sure. you want anything recent? 15:16:41 quintopia: every line after 15:16:41 14:25:25 * Sgeo murders Flash 15:16:41 14:25:39 I think the stdlib version loops once per bit 15:16:43 (yesterday) 15:16:47 (those timestamps may be wrong for you) 15:16:51 to when I joined would be nice :) 15:16:58 okiedoke 15:17:01 to reconstruct the timeline later if I ever get around to creating a full log DB 15:17:01 thanks 15:19:53 you were in the chan until midnight my time. don't you have logs of that? 15:20:22 oh, true 15:20:31 quintopia: i left the channel a few times accidentally though 15:21:02 loading this 2.6 mb log file is fun 15:21:32 quintopia: yeah, okay, I only need my quit to my join 15:21:35 thanks :) 15:21:38 Hehe 15:21:45 whops wrong window 15:22:58 http://pastebin.com/UVXyzY2t <-- is this really horrible? it generates BF code from desired-string input :) 15:23:59 I actually have a full log of this channel for the entire time i've been here 15:24:11 yorick: how does that work for sufficiently big numbers? 15:24:15 but i have a file containing just the last 24 hours for you here... 15:24:18 where shall i send it? 15:24:24 quintopia: filebin.ca? 15:24:28 kk 15:24:33 thanks 15:24:45 the timestream must be preserved! 15:24:47 alise: it generates code wrong a string between "A"-"z" 15:24:53 so no need for anything bigger 15:25:08 yorick: oh. 15:25:12 boring :P 15:25:33 it should totally use dynamic programming or something! 15:26:17 alise: it should, that's part 3 of the challenge :P 15:26:46 challenge? 15:26:50 http://filebin.ca/xnyacp/furalise.txt 15:26:55 alise: dutch informatics olympiad 15:27:05 yorick: laaaaaaaaaaaaaaawl 15:27:08 alise: so don't help me :) 15:27:17 yorick: shouldn't you be coding :) 15:27:22 quintopia: groan @ filename 15:27:35 quintopia: 10:23 < alise> oerjanerer ;; you know, i have all that logged 15:27:41 alise: just finished part 2...still thinking/planning 15:27:46 up to 00:55 -!- alise [~alise@91.105.114.37] has quit [Quit: Leaving] :-P 15:28:42 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:28:53 alise: with irssi, it's easier to just dump the entire scrollback buffer to a file 15:28:53 part one was make a normal bf code generator, part 2 was make something small yourself, part 3 is make a size-optimizing code generator 15:29:01 ah 15:29:09 quintopia-2010-10-02-03; what a terrible filename 15:29:30 ideally some day I'll get a hold of Vorpal's private logs and merge them with the clog ones :P 15:29:36 a log of our PMs? 15:29:43 no 15:29:45 that txt 15:29:51 (furalise) 15:29:58 i'm too anal to not give it a meaningful name! 15:30:35 what is the 03 at the end for? 15:30:37 oh 15:30:42 the 2nd to the 3rd 15:30:43 i get it 15:30:51 yeah precisely :P 15:31:08 i liked my filename better 15:34:59 mopr 15:37:03 * yorick goes looking for something on dynamic programming 15:37:25 yorick: does it really say dynamic programming? 15:37:32 i was joking, but i guess it could help 15:37:43 yorick: genetic programming is usually what is done for this 15:37:48 !bf_txtgen poop 15:37:57 !bf_textgen yorick 15:38:05 bit slow though 15:38:08 !userinterps 15:38:08 Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes chaos chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc decisionengine drawl drome dubya echo eehird ehird fudd funetak google graph gregor he hello id jethro kraut num ook pansy pi pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh simpleacro slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg 15:38:11 44 ++++++++++[>+++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>++.-..+.>. [282] 15:38:13 alise: it just says "write something that generates a size-optimized bf-code for a random string" 15:38:35 alise: I looked at genetic programming, it appears to be horrible 15:38:38 yorick: genetic programming will help a ton. dynamic programming won't. the above uses genetic programming, so does everything else 15:38:40 that's all i'll say :) 15:38:57 yorick: oh, you don't, like, genetically program from nothing to the string 15:39:15 i think you start with a regular RLE'd one, and then start mutating that in ways that make it smaller 15:39:17 i could be totally wrong though 15:39:20 so maybe ignore me 15:39:34 * yorick will look into that 15:39:48 yorick: i'd link you to the one egobot uses but *uh* pretty sure that's against your rules 15:40:13 i should think a dynamic programming solution would do pretty well... 15:40:22 03:44 < coppro> crap 15:40:24 does it use the java thing? 15:40:30 quoted for prosperity 15:40:35 yorick: uhh, yes, it does use some sort of java thing 15:40:51 does it use the "bf-code-generation" java thing? 15:41:01 i don't know; however i can link you. 15:41:10 then it's not it :) 15:41:20 the link would contain it 15:41:30 yorick: no -- egobot has its own copy of everything. 15:41:39 http://codu.org/projects/trac/egobot/export/114%3A1fe97d50a1d8/multibot_cmds/interps/bf_txtgen/textgen.tar.gz 15:41:43 there's the code 15:41:58 no, wait, just .class :D 15:42:04 yorick: i distinctly recall it was in a cvs repository 15:42:07 but it *could* have just evolved into that 15:42:49 yorick: how are they bowlderising "brainfuck"? :) 15:42:59 https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/index.cgi/file/1fe97d50a1d8/multibot_cmds/interps/bf_txtgen 15:43:02 alise: "BF" 15:43:19 yorick: hmm, are you Dutch? 15:43:26 nooga: yes 15:43:49 yorick: did you work on OTS ? 15:43:54 yorick: booring :) 15:43:56 nooga: no 15:44:03 https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/index.cgi/file/1fe97d50a1d8/multibot_cmds/interps/bf_txtgen ;; this is just egobot's launcher for it 15:44:12 ask Gregor 15:44:12 :P 15:44:23 i'm not sure how dynamic programming would help. 15:44:43 alise: I found the .java already :/ 15:44:59 yorick: ohh, right, it's .java 15:45:02 i was thinking .class 15:45:05 sorry, i'm dumb :) 15:45:23 03:49 < Phantom_Hoover> Wait, doesn't one of Gregor's bots keep logs? 15:45:28 no, that just mirrors clog 15:45:42 04:17 < Vorpal> if you don't have them: your own issue 15:45:42 04:18 < Vorpal> I could of course share mine, but why 15:45:48 "*that* would decrease my average overall snottiness!" 15:45:53 meh @ java 15:46:32 yorick: that has nothing to do with the algorithm :P 15:46:56 alise: it makes it about 28% less readable 15:47:00 04:59 < Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, if coppro wants the logs I will paste the link in the channel. 15:47:00 04:59 < Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but I see no point in helping you, you seem to hate me usually. 15:47:05 it's that time of month again for Vorpal! 15:47:09 yorick: than *C*? 15:47:22 at least it doesn't have any malloc()s, sure Java is ridiculously verbose, but you should easily be able to figure out the algorithm 15:47:22 alise: than *python* 15:47:28 yorick: oh, i thought that C was yours 15:47:32 Python is lame :P 15:47:33 alise: it is too 15:47:45 (note: I hate Java, C and Python, so you cannot rebut >_>) 15:47:53 C++! 15:54:05 yorick: congratulations, that's the worst language you've named so far! :D 15:54:34 alise: javascript! 15:55:05 yorick: is fucked up in strange ways. But at least it's based on Scheme.. 15:55:19 true :) 15:55:21 I like JS 15:55:32 visual basic! 15:58:18 yorick: >_< 15:59:32 Vorpal: i was wondering why warzone 2100 was so polished, then i googled it and found out it was originally a commercial game 15:59:33 how surprising :P 16:02:07 !bf_textgen -g 200 -t 3 abcdefg 16:02:21 yorick: doesn't it do "$foo" in the launcher script? 16:02:25 one may want to run it locally. 16:02:34 alise: it works locally :) 16:02:49 ++++++++++++[>++++++++>><<<-]>+.+.+.+.+.+.+. <-- it brings the world things like this :) 16:03:01 BancSTAR! 16:03:18 APL! 16:03:27 yorick: yeah >><< is a special kind of stupidity :) 16:03:31 yorick: just run a BF->BF optimiser on it 16:03:35 not difficult to elide things like that at all 16:03:50 I know 16:03:55 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 16:04:19 hmm I should study it, forget all about it and write my own :) 16:04:23 []......[ 16:04:36 doesn't egobot's do that automatically? 16:04:37 Oh wait 16:04:41 cuz that would be the smart thing 16:04:41 Oh no 16:04:48 []........[elidable] 16:04:58 quintopia: it should :P 16:05:27 07:21 * yorick will not look at the textgenerator 16:05:37 http://www4.kingdomofloathing.com/createplayer.php? 16:05:39 classes 16:05:47 in KoL are sooooooo awesome 16:06:12 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 16:06:19 alise: shhh 16:06:57 alise: that was for writing my codecup text thing 16:07:00 this is a generator :P 16:16:58 I see a red robe and I want to turn it black 16:17:35 I want to put it on with my wizard hat 16:18:08 -!- Harpyon_ has quit (Quit: Harpyon_). 16:19:17 pastamancer 16:26:47 -!- tombom_ has joined. 16:26:47 -!- tombom_ has quit (Changing host). 16:26:47 -!- tombom_ has joined. 16:28:04 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:28:11 07:37 < Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, why should I trust you? ehird has too much influence over you. And he promised similar things in the past for me providing some info only I had.... 16:28:20 Phanty, you have been CORRUPTED! You HORRIBLE BASTARD! 16:30:03 07:45 < Vorpal> I hope that you really stop being so much of a jerk though, probably not likely, but oh well... ;; he's only a jerk when you are 16:34:33 are people in this channel generally emotionally instable? 16:35:41 yorick, only a few of them 16:36:08 Vorpal: does that include you? 16:36:38 yorick, well personally I don't think so, or at least there are far worse people in here. 16:36:49 yorick, rather it is that I and alise don't get along at all 16:37:06 yorick: no no it's very simple 16:37:09 everyone in here is cool except Vorpal ;) 16:37:15 Vorpal: I see 16:37:50 I would say instead that everyone in here apart from alise, and to some degree phantom_hoover, are cool 16:42:19 alise, besides you don't get along with Quad*r*e*scence (* to avoid highlight), and a few more people. So your statement was exaggerated presumably 16:42:47 he's just a troll. and never talks. 16:42:50 so that doesn't really count 16:43:06 =D 16:44:19 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:45:36 no clog, even :( 16:46:19 oerjan: E's been plungered. 16:46:43 oerjan: i have logs 16:47:00 and, unlike Vorpal (watch carefully yorick -- this is how a professional does it), i won't argue with you before linking them 16:47:09 http://filebin.ca/xnyacp/furalise.txt, props to quintopia 16:47:49 I MAY STILL HAVE TO BAN YOU FOR THAT 16:48:11 It's funny because oerjan has ops and never uses them! 16:48:20 "never" 16:48:34 "Never" indeed; more oftener than, say, I, I'd say. 16:48:36 those logs seem incomplete as well 16:48:48 they are complete up until when i got in here 16:49:02 ah 16:49:15 i can give you those if you want 16:49:35 well unless someone pinged me, never mind 16:50:02 -!- Phantom_Cuber has joined. 16:51:21 < Vorpal> not sure about dumping scrollback though <-- i did manage to do that and start logging into the same file once, but it was a pain i thought 16:52:50 two different commands, and not a common format for choosing a file i think 16:55:20 < yorick> how many have come here this week asking for the smallest way to initialize cells in brainfuck to 67, 100 and 111? <-- we have a wiki page for that, brainfuck constants 16:56:12 the wrapping versions are afaik minimal 16:56:54 oerjan: I have found my solution already :) 16:57:15 oerjan: and I know about the wiki page, needed something smaller 16:58:25 oh you mean to initialize to all three at once? i guess that might be smaller than combining the separate algorithms. 16:58:53 if you're lucky 16:59:18 +++++++++++[->+++[->++>+++>+++<<<]>>+<<<]>>+.>+.>+.+.<<.>++++++.-----. it is :) 16:59:46 it prints "CodeCup" :) 16:59:56 > map chr [67,100,111] 16:59:57 "Cdo" 17:00:59 that looks a little more complicated than what EgoBot's program does 17:01:02 (part of the dutch informatics olympiad) 17:01:07 huh 17:01:51 !help languages 17:01:52 languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh. 17:02:17 !userinterps 17:02:17 Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes chaos chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc decisionengine drawl drome dubya echo eehird ehird fudd funetak google graph gregor he hello id jethro kraut num ook pansy pi pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh simpleacro slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg 17:02:25 !bf_textgen CodeCup 17:02:31 !bf_txtgen CodeCup 17:02:43 i cannot see it in the list :( 17:02:44 82 ++++++++++[>++++++++++>+++++++>+++++++++++>+<<<<-]>>---.>+.<<.+.>.>++++++.-----.>. [135] 17:02:51 oh maybe it's separate from both 17:02:52 !help 17:02:53 help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . 17:02:56 heh 17:03:36 -!- FireFly has joined. 17:03:42 yeah it's an actual interp 17:03:46 it doesn't make nesting loops of course, it's a rather simple algorithm 17:03:57 because it takes command-line arguments and stuff and blah 17:04:03 oerjan: yeah i want to make my own now... 17:04:16 and I *have* to make my own now 17:04:19 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:04:23 Zuu's idea of [^n meaning next n instructions are in a loop is interesting... but not that exact syntax 17:04:28 since that stops you doing [[ (BF) 17:04:41 not sure how to do it though 17:04:46 yorick: well you seem to have beat it already 17:05:01 oerjan: I have not made my own generator 17:05:05 (that's the next one) 17:05:23 ok 17:06:32 * alise decides to enable viewing window contents when resizing, this *is* 2010... 17:07:40 alise: my windows actually scale while resizing 17:07:52 and change size when done 17:07:52 hee, i still have that option off 17:08:00 yorick: i tried that once, it was godawful 17:08:10 it makes you *think* you have some perception of what it'll look like and you decide how to resize it based on that 17:08:11 but then OOPS NO 17:08:27 X11 really sucks at resizing though, especially with browsers 17:08:30 it's quite pathetic 17:09:07 of course with real resizing the window border flashes. lol. 17:09:21 < yorick> but stop helping me <-- IT'S IN OUR BLOOD 17:09:24 Linux graphics: Think you know how much it sucks? Nope! More than that! 17:09:37 oerjan: but then I'll have cheated :/ 17:09:51 no, no, just credit us as ... creative assistants! 17:10:15 oerjan: I like how helping people is the deep, dark, horrible flaw in our blood. 17:10:22 alise: I cannot actually do that :/ 17:10:27 yorick: we're joking :) 17:11:00 the actual live resizing is horrible :) 17:11:00 alise: IT'S NOT PROPER CAPITALISM. well unless we charge i guess. 17:11:33 yorick: only on X11 :P 17:11:39 alise: true 17:11:50 and that's just because X11 is the most hilariously 80s thing ever dreamt of 17:12:08 also true 17:12:08 more hilariously 80s than back to the future? 17:12:13 let's buy one million dollar server and five gajillion $5 monitors and keyboards! 17:12:18 and NETWORK! 17:12:30 it cannot be much of an olympiad if you're actually capable of _contacting the outside world_ during the contest... 17:12:31 alise: but it has nice ssh forwarding :) 17:12:33 quintopia: well. in software :P 17:12:36 more hilariously 80s than everything about the show "everybody hates chris"? 17:12:41 oerjan: this is just the first round 17:12:43 yorick: yeaah but toolkits should do that really 17:12:50 if it just sent down gtk messages and local gtk rendered it 17:12:52 it'd be much nicer 17:12:56 alise: tell that to my old TRS-80 games :D 17:13:04 quintopia: fine! late 80s! 17:13:20 alise: but then you'd need _toolkits_ 17:13:24 it cannot be much of an olympiad if you're actually capable of _contacting the outside world_ during the contest... ;; "We will now seal you inside a Faraday cage. There will be no food." 17:13:34 yorick: because you program in pure X-over-socket? :) 17:13:46 alise: possibly! 17:14:06 that sounds like a brilliant set up 17:14:10 except for the food thing 17:14:28 I'll still need power 17:14:37 and then I'll secretly DLAN over it :/ 17:14:48 yorick: no, no, you get a hole in the wall with a computer in it 17:15:02 alise: I'll hack the computer! 17:15:03 just a keyboard -- without those pesky unneeded F keys and the like -- and a monitor, running only a compile/run button and an editor 17:15:09 plus some paper on the wall telling you what to do 17:15:13 good luck getting past that 17:15:24 oh yeah and it's all baked into the wall so you can't get any of it out 17:15:31 it's the part that allows you to run your own code :) 17:15:39 yorick: in a qemu VM 17:15:44 :) 17:15:47 with no devices 17:15:56 qemu has been proven unsafe 17:16:02 yorick: qemu inside virtualbox inside ... 17:16:04 without virtualisation 17:16:11 oh yeah and the editor is custom and only supports arrow keys, backspace/delete, and typing 17:16:38 I somehow don't think this is gonna happen 17:23:06 * Zuu mixes in some chemicals in an attempt to neutralize the solution 17:23:30 A NEUTRALIZED SOLUTION IS STILL A SOLUTION 17:24:03 you probably want to make it precipitate 17:25:55 * quintopia mixes in some chemicals to precipitate the solution 17:28:12 well it _could_ be he doesn't mind solutions, as long as they're not too basic 17:28:16 coppro: ping 17:28:56 * quintopia freezes the solution with LN? 17:29:01 *LN2 17:29:22 apparently 2-subscript is unicode. I don't transmit unicode. 17:34:34 why not? 17:34:38 the rest of us do 17:34:55 pikhq: You know you're anal when you decode FLAC files just to re-encode them with --best. 17:38:31 -!- Kordalien has joined. 17:39:21 pikhq: ...how the hell is this .flac file smaller than a --best re-encoding? 17:42:01 alise: ALIEN TECHNOLOGY 17:42:08 it's the only possible answer 17:42:43 LOLZ NOW I HAVE TO FIND A TRACK THAT'S ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO 17:43:31 does there exist a turing-complete language in which a program's inverse is just that program written backwards? is that even possible? 17:43:50 quintopia: Kayak comes close 17:44:36 quintopia: i thought about that once. 17:44:48 oerjan: only close? 17:44:58 because we don't know whether it's TC or not? 17:45:14 you also have to switch to the other matching bracket 17:45:19 ah 17:45:25 Should I continue trying to wrestle with DCGs? 17:45:28 that's fixable, surely? 17:45:29 Phantom_Cuber: yes 17:45:33 Phantom_Cuber: they're jawesome 17:45:36 *jawsome 17:45:47 They are, but they're rather irritating. 17:46:07 well yeah you could have a matching system where ) ... ( and ( ... ) are both possible 17:46:20 alise: it's easily fixable in fact. just make it so that at the top level either ordering is equivalent 17:46:21 but i don't recall that kayak does that 17:46:33 quintopia: how, with nesting? 17:46:35 oh, hm 17:46:37 but 17:46:42 (foo )bar( quux) 17:46:43 of course, once below the top level, you have to use the convention you chose at the top level 17:46:46 you need whitespace-sensitivity :D 17:46:53 like nopol 17:46:57 did that with <> and >< 17:47:06 alise: the first ) matches the previous ( because there _is_ a previous ( to match, simply 17:47:14 oerjan: right. 17:47:25 http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/nopol.txt unfortunately lacks any examples 17:47:34 hmm wait that ><> ending sequence might have one 17:47:35 maybe not 17:47:46 Has Burro been mentioned yet? 17:47:55 Burro doesn't qualify 17:48:17 It doesn't, but it's relevant. 17:48:17 is Kayak TC? 17:48:33 kayak is TC iirc. but not all programs actually _halt_, in which case reversing it isn't really _that_ meaningful 17:48:40 jesus, it would be easier to buy the fucking single and extract the track off at this point 17:48:56 "kayak is TC iirc. but not all programs actually _halt_" 17:48:59 oerjan: there is no tc tag on the page 17:49:01 i imagine it is unknown 17:49:10 "kayak is TC iirc. but not all programs actually _halt_" <-- just love the redundancy of this 17:49:14 oerjan: well, that's good enough. We only care about reversibility for halting computations. 17:49:38 also you sometimes need to include a bit bucket for tossing information into, if two inputs give the same output 17:49:53 which is something any reversible TC language requires 17:49:56 quintopia: it could ununhalt unforever! 17:50:01 a place to store unnecessary information 17:50:06 oerjan, Burro manages TCness with antiprograms. 17:50:23 because all function have to be bijections for invertibility to make sense 17:51:39 but "the set of all functions with finite output" is equivalent to "the set of all bijections, possibly with some of the output discarded" 17:52:39 errr.. . ."finite output" should probably be "output sized as a function of input size"... 17:55:07 one thing i don't like about kayak (and other reversible languages like befreak) is they include arbitrary rules just to force reversibility 17:55:22 like "In addition, code must result in an empty temporary register when the structure is exited." 17:56:03 it would be nice if the limitations on the language fell out of the semantics of provided instructions rather than externally imposed limitations. 17:56:32 yeah 17:57:19 * oerjan once pondered how to do reversible jumps in a way that didn't depend on a jump target having to be a jump itself 17:57:38 Phantom_Cuber: Burro has some neat constructs, but reversible brainfuck pulled off the whole "set of programs form a group under concatenation" thing better IMO 17:58:20 oerjan: is it possible? 17:58:25 i love how 17:58:26 that's similar. i thought you could have jump flag, which was toggled by the jump instruction. if the target wasn't an instruction toggling the jump flag, the machine would just _keep on_ jumping 17:58:27 f(x) = x+y 17:58:28 and 17:58:30 f(x) = x-y 17:58:32 erm 17:58:34 f(x,y) = x+y 17:58:35 and 17:58:36 f(x,y) = x-y 17:58:38 don't count as "reversible" 17:58:39 but 17:58:43 f(x,y) = (x+y, x-y) 17:58:43 does 17:58:45 it could even have a delay for pipelining 17:59:29 a sort of "you cannot change the jump countdown if it is between -N and N" 17:59:37 and at 0 you jump 17:59:42 alise: or f(x,y)=(x,x+y) or (y,x+y) 17:59:56 quintopia: yeah 18:00:24 oerjan: i'm not following 18:00:44 quintopia: the simple version with just a flag, or the pipelining version? 18:01:08 i'm guessing the flag thing is like unto Burro's implicit loop? 18:01:13 explain better 18:01:14 :D 18:01:17 that could be 18:01:33 now if i buy the single, i need a usb optical drive 18:01:55 usb optical drives r p cool dewds 18:02:13 oh wait 18:02:14 yeah but this is all for the sake of having a flac version rather than mp3 :) 18:02:21 you'd have a program counter as usual, and then a jump destination register. if at the end of an instruction the jump flag is set, then those two registers are switched 18:02:21 and 18:02:22 1 new from £76.95 18:02:24 never mind! 18:02:29 (that's for a SINGLE! on CD!) 18:02:35 (HOW) 18:02:39 you mean like a jump with offset instead of a jump to destination directly? 18:02:57 it doesn't have to be an offset 18:03:13 it _could_ be that instead, of course 18:03:13 oh i see 18:03:51 so you store the destination to jump back to in your main register before toggling the jump flag 18:04:03 yeah 18:04:21 what makes that reversible? 18:04:26 er minus the "back" 18:04:51 oh and the jump flag is _not_ toggled by the jumping itself 18:04:59 that's essential for reversibility 18:05:01 can someone *please* explain to me how on earth a CD single can cost £76.95 :) 18:05:35 but if the destination address contains an instruction toggling the jump flag, everything works as expected 18:06:03 hmm 18:06:11 hard to see what makes it reversible 18:06:15 what happens if it doesn't? 18:07:07 then after the destination instruction has been performed, since the jump flag is still set, the program counter and the destination register are switched _again_ 18:07:58 you'd essentially keep jumping back and forth every other instruction until something toggles the flag, i think 18:08:20 (the usual increment of program counter would apply as well, of course) 18:09:05 so the jump jumps to what was in the dest register BEFORE or AFTER swapping? 18:09:24 you could also include a flag for reversing execution direction in this, that's useful for "cascades" which compute something, store the result then uncompute again to save memory 18:09:50 quintopia: AFTER swapping the program counter _is_ the old destination register 18:10:11 jumping is just changing the program counter, after all 18:10:24 so you're swapping the PC with the dest register 18:10:40 makes more sense 18:11:30 so what if i want to jump from A to B then from B+6 to C? how does that look in the reversed version? 18:13:21 well after unperforming instruction C, presumably the destination register will contain B+7, and the jump flag is set, so it is swapped with the PC, which is then decremented, the B+6 instruction un-unloaded, etc. 18:13:56 the B+6 instruction should toggle the flag, as should the B instruction 18:14:17 well all of those instructions mentioned need to toggle the flag 18:14:27 oh because they had to toggle it to begin with, they'll toggle it now too 18:14:32 yeah 18:14:34 yeah i think that works 18:14:40 so where's the language based on this? 18:14:52 nowhere, alas :D 18:15:01 EXACTLY 18:15:22 so what does the pipelined version do? 18:17:27 you'd have a jump preparation flag and a jump countdown register instead of just a jump flag 18:18:32 er call that jump countdown flag 18:19:08 while the JCF is set, the JCR is decremented after each instruction. when JCR=0 swap as above. 18:20:33 the pipelining is effected by some additional restrictions: you can only toggle the JCF when JCR is _outside_ some [-N,N] interval, and you can only change the JCR explicitly when the JCF is off, and never to a value in [-N,N] 18:21:10 this prevents all changing of scheduled jumps that are within a too short distance 18:22:46 whether this would be very useful is another question 18:22:49 so you write a program that knows when it is going to jump so that it can put the branch instruction into the pipeline in advance? 18:23:18 yeah, and so it can load instructions at the destination in advance as well 18:23:31 because it knows in good time when it will switch over 18:26:22 "bf2kayak.pl is a Brainfuck-to-Kayak compiler, written in Perl. I haven't tested it carefully, but it works with some simple programs. I hope this will resolve any lingering doubts as to the Turing-completeness of Kayak." 18:26:41 (from http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/kayak/doc/kayak.html) 18:28:18 anyway, later 18:28:21 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 18:32:16 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:32:31 What is wrong with the log program? 18:33:02 It died under mysterious circumstances. 18:33:16 Today's file is there, but empty. 18:34:40 Perhaps if they did it like how CthulhuIRCd does the log, it might work better, but I don't know for sure. 18:35:17 (i.e. on the server side) 18:35:42 http://filebin.ca/qfbjap/zzo38.txt this is the last ~24 hours 18:36:41 quintopia: Well, it is a bit different format than the clog 18:37:00 It is also a different timezone 18:37:38 well forgive me for not being perfect 18:37:48 it's eastern daylight time 18:37:52 convert it in your head 18:38:12 That's OK. 18:38:19 I am just mentioning that the format is different. 18:38:34 GMT-4 iirc 18:38:45 i mean 18:38:48 UTC-4 18:38:52 GMT-5 18:39:27 OK 18:39:55 Is there an open-source APL-alike? 18:43:18 This is another kind of IRC log format (so that you will not get mixed up with timezones): http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/textfile/miscellaneous/SIRCL 18:43:49 hahah 18:43:51 oh man 18:43:55 cjb 18:43:57 old school 18:44:28 quintopia: not that old school, they only offered redirection way back right? 18:44:34 whereas that points to zzo38's actual computer afaik 18:44:43 so dns 18:45:16 they've been doing dns for years too 18:46:01 zzo38, incidentally, did anyone else express their displeasure with the addition of Dottyweb to articles? 18:46:31 i did 18:46:34 well 18:46:39 i dunno if i got around to saying so on the talk page 18:46:40 Phantom_Cuber: No. Nobody expressed anything about the addition of Dottyweb to articles. (Although I did put it in the summary text so that you can complain on the Talk page) 18:46:52 zzo38: can i be lazy and complain here? 18:47:21 i'd be fine with it if we had a discussion about it first and agreed on it 18:47:22 alise: You can, but that won't affect my decision unless you complain on the Talk page. 18:47:37 i'm not going to complain in one specific place just because you want me to... 18:47:42 And then we can have a proper discussion about it with everyone else on the wiki at any time. 18:48:03 generally the discussion comes before the change 18:48:11 alise: It does not have to be on a specific Talk page, just put your complaints in any wiki page that is relevant. 18:48:45 zzo38, IRC is better for discussions. 18:49:12 i don't mind a discussion on the wiki, but i don't think i should have to initiate it, as i didn't make the changes 18:50:34 OK, I will initiate the discussion on the page of the wiki instead, though. http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Help_talk:Dottyweb 18:50:43 Is that sufficient? 18:50:54 Sure, I'll write some sort of reply. 18:51:01 It should suffice. 18:51:41 OK 18:54:01 zzo38: I have added a comment, and so has Phantom_Cuber. 18:55:18 alise: pong 18:55:43 coppro: am I in time for mathNEWS? 18:56:36 yes 18:56:45 coppro: how long do I have? :P 18:56:49 you have at least 30 more hours 18:57:28 coppro: oh, it's assembled on Monday, not Sunday? 18:57:39 i thought monday was just when you guys printed it or whatever 18:58:21 Monday is the writing/proofing night, then the editors spend Tuesday doing layout and Wednesday it gets sent to the printer 18:58:27 Friday it gets released 18:59:02 oh, that's much more time than I thought, then 18:59:17 I thought Sunday was a crazy day of proofing and layout and Monday it was sent to the printer, from what you said 18:59:41 ah, no 19:00:39 did you get my link to the draft? i'm not sure whether i've got my crazyML right :) 19:00:41 (yesterday) 19:01:03 I will stop adding the {{.file| templates to things that I did not write myself. (If you think it should be removed from the other pages that I did not add it to, please do so yourself.) 19:01:11 zzo38: Okay. 19:01:59 alise: I did, but I have not read it 19:02:06 OK. 19:02:08 and I do not have time right now. I have to go sort boardgames 19:02:16 A mammoth task. 19:02:54 indeed 19:08:58 I would like to know if there is any other IRC software that does channel log on the server. 19:09:41 zzo38: cmeme used to 19:09:43 but then it dieded 19:09:45 botte does 19:09:46 >_> 19:10:13 lambdabot, not you, I suppose? 19:10:48 lambdabot doesn't; nor fungot or EgoBot or HackEgo 19:10:48 alise: oh. what'd he want? 19:10:50 just clog and botte 19:11:11 I don't think any of those are IRC servers that do server-side logging, which is what I think was asked. 19:11:34 Oh, look. TV Tropes continues its march towards formal bureaucracy. 19:11:35 Based on the earlier thing about CthulhuIRCd. 19:11:39 But I might misinterpret. 19:11:39 fizzie: Yes it is what I ask 19:11:53 "This is based on opinion. 19:11:54 Please don't list it on a work's page as a trope. Examples can go here. " This is on the Crazy Awesome page. 19:12:17 There was no problem with that in trope listings. 19:12:35 Phantom_Cuber: :'( 19:12:47 Phantom_Cuber: If it depresses you, browse WardsWiki a bit. 19:12:50 It cheers anyone up. 19:12:55 Well, any hopeless programming nerd. 19:13:06 http://c2.com/cgi/wiki I even clickified it for you! 19:14:03 -!- lament has joined. 19:17:04 dear #esoteric: who wants me to document Hofstadter's typogenetics on the wiki? 19:18:34 quintopia: I do. 19:21:31 i will do it if two more people respond 19:21:58 Typogenetics? 19:22:20 I want to know what it is, so I suppose that's a "yes". 19:24:00 OK, Nightmare Fuel is now classified as a subjective trope. 19:24:11 i.e. it shouldn't be listed on the articles for works. 19:24:13 what 19:24:56 @type div 19:24:57 forall a. (Integral a) => a -> a -> a 19:25:13 Phantom_Cuber: xDDD 19:25:18 quintopia: is that the TNT stuff? 19:25:19 if so, sure 19:25:28 quintopia: make sure to use the proper unicode though... at least i think he used some non-ASCII stuff 19:25:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Changing host). 19:25:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 19:25:47 alise, the whole subjective trope list is depressing. 19:26:01 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Changing host). 19:26:01 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 19:26:07 Phantom_Cuber: Who runs the thing, anyway? 19:26:08 "So Bad It's Good" 19:26:12 Not even http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_Tropes lists. 19:26:16 *says. 19:26:31 I have no idea. 19:26:31 Phantom_Cuber: truly depressing 19:26:35 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:26:36 TV Tropes is not Wiipedia! 19:26:38 *Wikipedia! 19:27:17 Complete Monster. Adaptation Decay. 19:27:26 Phantom_Cuber: stop it. stop. 19:27:31 Phantom_Cuber: is Big Bad on there 19:27:33 please say yes 19:27:33 Jumping The Shark. 19:27:36 It's not. 19:27:36 morals aren't objective! 19:27:39 Phantom_Cuber: put it on 19:28:09 Nightmare Fuel and its relatives. 19:28:15 But not Fetish Fuel. 19:28:24 Moral Event Horizon. 19:28:31 Sequelitis. 19:28:51 Crowning Moment Of Awesome is thankfully not. 19:28:58 The Wesley. 19:29:04 Phantom_Cuber: LET'S FORK IT! (no) 19:29:07 Unfortunate Implications. 19:29:14 Tear Jerker. 19:29:25 I hate my life. 19:29:37 It's Popular, Now It Sucks. 19:29:47 TV Tropes: It's popular, now it sucks. 19:29:50 Which is *about the fandom's reaction*, not the work itself. 19:30:31 Wait... 19:30:39 There are categories. 19:31:05 The Momentipelago is in them. 19:31:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Changing host). 19:31:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 19:31:26 As is Fetish Fuel. 19:31:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Changing host). 19:31:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 19:31:46 Magnificent Bastard. 19:31:49 Large Ham. 19:33:29 I should stop this. 19:33:38 MAGNIFICENT BASTARD IS SUBJECTIVE? 19:33:41 EVERY FUCKING THING IS SUBJECTVIE!!!! 19:33:44 Apparently. 19:35:16 Fast Eddie seems to have something to do with this. 19:35:25 He is one of the 3 founders AFAIK. 19:36:19 alise: TNT is not a programming language per se. it has no imperative element to it. 19:36:57 typogenetics is the programming language designed to model the complexity of DNA/RNA/proteins 19:36:59 quintopia, wha..? 19:37:08 Aaaah. 19:37:29 quintopia: oh that one 19:37:37 quintopia: also, many languages have no imperative element. 19:37:41 such as the lambda calculus 19:38:30 they usually have some implicit imperative element though 19:38:47 even if they don't... 19:38:48 like "evaluate this function by name" 19:38:49 Phantom_Cuber: [[Works for a major videogame producer as a hackist. Which is why he never goes into the Videogames section. Ever. 19:38:49 About to be fired unless he starts doing more matrix-algebraic hackitation than Tropering.]] 19:38:52 Phantom_Cuber: IRRITATING USE OF HACK 19:38:57 quintopia: that's a model in an imperative universe 19:38:59 not the language itself 19:39:26 alise, never trust someone who actually calls themselves a hacker. 19:39:32 And is less than 40. 19:39:33 alise: no, but it is an imperative element of the universe in which the language finds itself 19:40:00 TNT on the other hand is in a universe purely dreamed of for the declaration and specification of theorems 19:40:03 Phantom_Cuber: Or is Eric S. Raymond. 19:40:13 not for the specification of algorithms to decide them 19:40:24 quintopia: i think you're wrong but whatever, it's irrelevant :P 19:40:25 alise, that's the Fundamental Theorem of Trustworthiness. 19:41:09 alise: do you draw any line between "programming language" and "formal system for typographic manipulation"? 19:41:29 from a page he links: 19:41:33 "Irish Travellers are not Gypsies, yet they are often called so by Gadjo (non-Gypsies)." 19:41:34 alise: the code paragraphs are indented 19:41:40 quintopia: not really. maybe. bleh, whatever 19:41:44 coppro: the code paragraphs aren't 19:41:46
 is not 

19:42:00 coppro: or, are you actually testing with the system or something? 19:42:21 no, I was just looking at the previous issue 19:43:03 coppro: oh, right, i see 19:43:09 coppro: is the "print" line indented? 19:43:11 beyond the while statement 19:44:04 (also, is it actually shown as monospaced??) 19:54:56 coppro: bah! busy sorting board games no doubt 19:55:43 -!- lament has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:57:10 Are you mad that I put too much money in your tea? 19:58:07 Indeed! 19:58:23 Yes, I like my tea to be cheap. 19:59:14 How can I drink my tea with all this money in it? 19:59:17 HOW? 20:00:17 take the money out 20:00:18 drink 20:00:29 But you can't put money in tea! 20:00:29 spend the money on more tea 20:00:35 It destroys the flavour! 20:01:08 -!- iGO has joined. 20:01:36 what if the money is made of . . .tea leaves? 20:01:46 Money is filthy, teaming with germs 20:02:06 Listen to he who flips. 20:02:12 [teeming] 20:02:25 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:02:59 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 20:04:31 alise, incidentally, today's top story in the Edinburgh Evening News: 20:04:45 "CITY SET TO RIP UP TRAM CONTRACT" 20:05:19 Phantom_Cuber: do they like the trams or not 20:05:28 They *HATE* trams. 20:05:47 Where normal tabloids have pedos, the EEN has trams. 20:05:56 Searching "tram" on their site: 20:06:04 "TRAM ROW GOES INTERNATIONAL" 20:06:08 :D 20:06:10 Link me to this site 20:06:12 It sounds amazing 20:06:22 "TRAM BOSSES HAVE NO PLANS TO REPAIR CRACKED FOUNDATIONS" 20:06:41 "TRAM WARS AS GERMAN CONTRACTOR WALKS OFF THE JOB" 20:07:02 "TRAM BOSSES DEFEND 'SCANDALOUS' EXPENSES" 20:07:10 Phantom_Cuber: <3 20:07:20 http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/ 20:07:31 It's a bundle of awful tabloid journalism. 20:07:50 Search for "council": 20:08:01 "MEETING QUESTIONS SNUBBED AT COUNCIL MEETING" 20:08:09 "TRAM SHIFTS FOR POPE" 20:08:14 I played D&D game a few days ago, I try to win without making anyone else dead, I already managed to avoid kill the mindflayer and to sabotage the bell, now we can convince them the god Mask is dead 20:09:03 Many people do not like this kind of game they prefer to kill everyone and to avoid too much complicated ideas 20:09:23 At one point they talked about the dangerous level of carbon given off by tram works. 20:09:45 The comments are pretty fun as well. 20:10:11 zzo38: I prefer to kill everyone in real life. 20:10:11 Seem to be a lot of quotes from tories. 20:10:24 "OWN GOAL FOR COMPUTER GAMES FAN ROBBED OF NEW TITLE WITHIN MINUTES" 20:10:39 Phantom_Cuber: what xD 20:10:49 IT MAKES NO SENSE 20:11:00 alise: O, you prefer to kill everyone in real life? Include you? 20:11:14 zzo38: Yes; me after everyone else. 20:11:17 Canada is next on my list. 20:11:18 alise, not one paragraph in that article is more than a sentence long. 20:11:27 Phantom_Cuber: Do link. Before you die. 20:11:39 It is a thing to behold. 20:11:44 http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/Own-goal-for-computer-games.6562082.jp 20:11:46 .jp? 20:11:58 It's Japanese! 20:12:02 Or Java Page? Who knows. 20:12:22 "GIRLS WHO LEAVE SCHOOL EARLY MISSING OUT ON VITAL CANCER JAB" 20:12:26 I play D&D game try to don't kill everyone, is more interesting than the other way, isn't it? 20:12:46 Phantom_Cuber: CANCER jab???? What 20:12:51 zzo38: Yes. But in real life... 20:12:57 The HPV jab. 20:13:21 Phantom_Cuber: lawwwl 20:13:31 The people may be the biggest problem in real life, but that doesn't mean it is one that ought to be fixed. (At least not for another million years or so, if ever) 20:14:11 "JUNGLE TRIP ASHLEY CAUGHT IN UPRISING" 20:14:38 SO, WORMS! 20:14:46 zzo38: Too late, I am already doing so. 20:15:32 -!- augur has joined. 20:15:57 A new 2D Worms game for the PC. 20:16:08 The day, I saw thought, never. 20:16:37 "TEAR UP TRAMS CONTRACT, DEMAND CRITICS" 20:16:45 LESS TRAMS MORE WORMS 20:18:19 alise is making better nonsense than the newspaper 20:18:34 quintopia: Only nonsense to the uninformed, my friend! 20:19:04 "The day, I saw thought, never." this makes no sense to anyone informed or not 20:19:13 Rearrange it. 20:19:43 "Never thought I saw the day?" 20:19:57 it's still not a very good sentence 20:20:04 Well, you know what I mean. :P 20:22:11 Ceefax will end in 2012! 20:22:27 This is obviously the catastrophe the Mayans predicted! 20:28:11 Phantom_Cuber: NO 20:30:25 -!- ehird has joined. 20:30:46 hi 20:32:04 -!- ehird has quit (Client Quit). 20:32:25 that was not me. 20:32:54 Phantom_Cuber: quintopia: was that you? 20:33:15 'Twasn't me. 20:33:24 * Sgeo is not that evil 20:33:38 Unless I said something like "This isn't actually ehird" 20:34:44 um 20:34:44 nope 20:34:45 not me 20:35:08 but i just walked into the kitchen and somehow i've got a really tasty spice smell on my fingers now 20:36:41 Who wants to give me lot sof money?! 20:36:57 the government! 20:37:06 nope :P 20:37:13 did anyone whois that ehird when it was online? 20:37:34 * ehird (d55ec16e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.94.193.110) has joined #esoteric 20:37:44 If that's any help 20:39:55 -!- Flonk has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914125854]). 20:40:54 it means he used webchat 20:40:59 aka zero help 20:43:48 There's the IP, though; a hotel in Dublin. 20:44:06 s/in/around/ 20:44:35 that sounds hard to fake, but useless for identification 20:50:01 check this out: https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=1xMe6RAsshEhAfbyrJQggLZV6-buMvZFYCj-v9N-uGE6nphQm_Iw2rw5IulhV&hl=en&authkey=CO78idQG 20:52:53 Aw, the name *was* in use, then! (Re the "Grasp" draft at http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Fizzie I sketched.) 20:55:49 Why are there so few languages that look nice when printed? 20:56:41 Phantom_Cuber: Because. 20:56:43 Fortress! 20:57:14 I've never been able to get Fortress working... 20:58:05 Wait, someone announced that Duke Nukem Forever was going to be released? 20:58:07 IMPOSSIBLE 20:59:35 So, I got that Feather spec and implementation finished. 21:00:25 Evening News: "FORTH BRIDGE PAINTING COMPLETED" 21:00:50 Stallman: "Hey guys! The HURD is finished! Now stop using that silly Linux thing." 21:01:12 -!- comex has changed nick to TheLastPOPE. 21:01:15 fizzie: the major flaw with the spec i linked that i commented on to the authors when i first read it last year was that it didn't have the property you specify in your sketch 21:01:33 fizzie: in particular, i would love to see a merging of your idea and the ideas in the above spec 21:02:06 -!- TheLastPOPE has changed nick to comex. 21:02:26 Wait, someone announced that Duke Nukem Forever was going to be released? ;; it is 21:02:35 comex: The past elope. 21:03:01 Duke Nukem Forever's nonexistence has been a constant for as long as I have particularly cared! 21:03:08 What will I believe in now?? 21:03:31 fizzie: also, your methods for implementing your "main idea" bear a striking resemblance to the methods the authors of Illumination Software Creator use. 21:04:46 I still want to do that "FSM in a planar graph with one storage module" idea... 21:05:39 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 21:05:51 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 21:06:15 Wherein some form of network transmission protocol would have to be implemented. 21:10:57 fizzie: also, your methods for implementing your "main idea" bear a striking resemblance to the methods the authors of Illumination Software Creator use. 21:11:00 that is NOT a good thing :D 21:16:06 * Phantom_Cuber wonders how one would perform subgraph matching in Prolog. 21:16:22 alise: just pointing out how hard it is to be original when creating languages 21:16:43 Phantom_Cuber: wut 21:16:52 they are different enough in this case that a small modification would give them a lot of merit 21:17:37 alise, for Eodermdrome. 21:17:48 what's a subgraph in this context? 21:17:53 oh right 21:22:36 alise: BTW, flac -f --best 21:22:45 pikhq: I did that. 21:22:48 alise: That decodes and reëncodes, preserving metadata 21:22:51 Oh, okay then. 21:22:51 pikhq: It ended up *bigger* somehow 21:22:54 pikhq: Well 21:22:57 Actually I piped decode to encode 21:23:00 But somehow the output was actually bigger 21:23:03 So they must have done something crazy 21:23:10 Odd. 21:27:23 pikhq: So, how much would you rage if the only copy you could find of something was an MP3? 21:27:25 Literally. 21:27:27 All over the internet. 21:27:48 alise: I currently have a lot of rage because of that. 21:27:51 pikhq: Also, how about it has the same title as an album by the same band, so you can't search easily? 21:27:54 ARE YOU FEELING THE FUCKING PAIN 21:28:03 And how about a new copy of a CD it's on is over seventy fucking pounds? 21:28:08 (Used for less, but STILL.) 21:29:38 pikhq: ARE YOU FEELING THE LOVE 21:29:45 Fek 21:29:56 -!- impomatic has joined. 21:30:03 Hi :-) 21:30:52 hallo 21:31:07 WHY CAN I NOT WATCH FUTURAMA 21:31:16 i think you have been here before but not since i have been here 21:31:16 IT BURNS WITH A FIRE WITHIN ME 21:32:38 * Phantom_Cuber ponders simply torrenting it. 21:34:14 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:35:08 Phantom_Cuber, hmm? 21:35:36 Sgeo, you just *try* finding a UK channel that shows it. 21:36:13 Phantom_Cuber: I suggest torrenting it. 21:36:13 * Sgeo tends to look for websites :/ 21:36:22 Phantom_Cuber: has a TC machine with planar FSM and single infinite storage module not already been done somewhere? 21:36:26 pikhq, OK. 21:36:34 quintopia, not sure... 21:36:45 That's the solution to most TV, in fact. 21:36:54 i seem to recall the strong wire-crossing hypothesis being pretty much busted (rule 110 a counterexample?) 21:36:54 pikhq, should I start at series 1? 21:36:59 Phantom_Cuber: Very yes. 21:37:08 so i feel like it must have been done by now 21:37:12 Phantom_Cuber: If you don't download the largest filesize option in all cases I will murder you. 21:37:18 quintopia: it's not totally killed yet 21:37:25 alise, ... 21:37:41 Phantom_Cuber: KWALITEE 21:37:51 I'll murder you, and your little dog too! 21:37:51 Hmm. Invader Zim ISO dumps. Highly tempting. 21:38:26 How do you watch so much TV? 21:38:28 (I'm picky about my encodes, mmkay?) 21:38:41 Fullscreen Flash outside of YouTube is failing HARD 21:39:18 Awesome! 21:39:27 I get to hear the audio of an episode without any video! 21:39:29 [[What we're avoiding 21:39:29 sprintf() breaking in PHP]] --definition of Perl Kwalitee 21:39:32 what the hell does that mean? 21:39:34 Grrrrr 21:39:35 pikhq, incidentally, is there a nice way to schedule the torrent? 21:39:55 I'd like to watch them in the appropriate order, rather than getting all of the episodes after a long time. 21:42:43 * pikhq fetches some freaking DVD dumps of Invader Zim just to encode them properly 21:43:27 Phantom_Cuber: Not really. 21:43:39 Phantom_Cuber: BitTorrent is inherently you-get-random-data, basically. 21:43:43 :( 21:43:44 You CAN do it, manually, but it won't work well. 21:43:47 And other clients will hate you. 21:43:51 Phantom_Cuber: Just download season 1 first... 21:43:55 It won't take that long. 21:44:08 Is there a way of telling it "prioritise the earlier episodes if you see a bit of data"? 21:44:15 Phantom_Cuber never saw Futurama? 21:44:21 Also, there are websites >.> 21:44:44 Sgeo, I understand this, but it was just never relevant. 21:45:40 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 21:46:03 * pikhq also deletes some shitty movies that won't ever get watched again 21:46:37 Oh, and inexplicable 4:3 cropped rips of movies. 21:46:46 Rather gouge out my eyes than watch those. 21:48:02 * Phantom_Cuber notes that all of the major British channels have some sort of online catchup service. 21:50:36 Is there a way of telling it "prioritise the earlier episodes if you see a bit of data"? ;; this makes no sense 21:50:54 Probably not. 21:54:28 -!- Harpyon has joined. 21:58:45 So wait, how would you do the subgraph matching in Prolog? 22:05:47 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:06:30 -!- wareya has joined. 22:08:31 -!- augur has joined. 22:10:42 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:17:11 Somebody needs to make an MMO in the style of adventure games like King's Quest.' 22:22:52 Anyone use Tcl? 22:23:52 * pikhq 22:24:40 I can't get TclRobots running on ActivestateTcl for Windows :-( 22:27:53 Then what you really need is somebody who uses both Tcl and Windows, innit? :P 22:28:53 Windows is pain and agony. 22:30:11 I'll try it on Linux when I get chance 22:32:10 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:32:14 * pikhq vomits at the quality of one of the series on his hard drive 22:32:31 -!- augur has joined. 22:32:37 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: Welcome honored guest. I got the key you want! would you like onderves. of Yourself). 22:33:15 720p, encoded at a lower bitrate than I do for DVD rips. 22:33:30 I get that h264 is good, but it's not *that* good. 22:35:46 -!- Harpyon has quit (Quit: Harpyon). 22:36:23 -!- Phantom_Cuber has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:40:42 night 22:40:46 → 22:51:12 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:51:34 -!- augur has joined. 22:55:12 -!- Phantom_Cuber has joined. 22:59:15 If you have large capacity disk to store a video, you can store uncompressed video by converting a NTSC or PAL signal to a digital file. 23:00:51 -!- augur has changed nick to augur[reading. 23:00:54 -!- augur[reading has changed nick to augur[reading]. 23:04:59 zzo38: That's pretty ridiculous, though. 23:05:29 Especially when you consider that with video, there's generally already been tons of generation loss. 23:13:05 How many mathematical symbols do you need to write whatever article you are writing? Computer Modern contains many, we probably don't need a lot of other ones, but some of the symbols in WEBMATH are I design that might be used in mathematics, such as blackboard bold, therefore sign, alternate empty set, 23:13:42 which others are common enough to include? Probably many can just be composed from overlapping and arranging other characters in Computer Modern and WEBMATH combined, using various commands in TeX. 23:15:25 -!- tombom_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:18:01 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:22:08 fungot, is clog still deaD? 23:22:08 Phantom_Cuber: i thought you'd be better at playing a gay vampire. and i do believe it's time for my medicine! 23:22:12 *dead 23:22:19 Eeeeeew... 23:23:12 fungot, whence the need for medicine? 23:23:12 olsner: that's right. no. no fucking way. 23:23:58 ^style 23:23:58 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa* speeches ss wp youtube 23:24:08 Ahhh. 23:24:25 hmm? 23:24:47 Phantom_Cuber: Why aren't you better at playing a gay vampire? 23:25:24 I'm terrible at roleplay. 23:26:36 "Helloth for everyone! How are you all, my thweet guestth? [pops out fangs] Ah, that's better." 23:26:45 IT'S FUNNY BECAUSE GAY PEOPLE LISP 23:28:08 -!- ais523 has joined. 23:29:00 Hi ais523. 23:29:27 hi alise 23:31:29 ais523, in response to the recent announcement of the immanent completion of Duke Nukem Forever, do you plan to complete the spec for Feather? 23:31:44 Phantom_Cuber: not today, I'm busy in RL 23:31:55 Baaah. 23:33:40 pikhq: Are you anal enough to purchase releases unavailable online in FLAC solely to correct this injustice? 23:33:49 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 23:34:14 -!- FireFly has joined. 23:35:45 assuming it was really imm_a_nent, i wouldn't put _too_ much importance on it ;D 23:36:07 'of a mental act performed entirely within the mind; "a cognition is an immanent act of mind"' 23:36:19 alise: No, but only due to lack of expendable funds. 23:36:21 Imminent? 23:36:29 Effing homophones. 23:36:49 pikhq: But you can get a used CD for like ... like £3-£5! 23:36:51 (Of it.) 23:36:57 -!- FireFly has quit (Client Quit). 23:37:18 pikhq: Actually £8.99 BUT WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE 23:37:45 What I'm saying is: Public duty. 23:38:51 -!- augur[reading] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:40:01 alise: Except when what you're missing is obscure. 23:40:08 * Phantom_Cuber → sleep 23:40:43 pikhq: No, there is an actual item for £8.99 in this case. 23:40:49 Ah. 23:41:25 pikhq: Therefore FIX THE UNIVERSE 23:41:42 yeah _someone_ better fix it 23:41:52 maaaan 23:41:57 i have enjoyed myself today. 23:41:59 pikhq: DO YOU AGREE 23:42:11 * pikhq hates US jury selection 23:42:19 pikhq: You cannot avoid your destiny 23:43:10 he _could_ say he is fundamentally against the concept of punishment, the prosecutors would probably through him out :D 23:43:15 (iiuc) 23:43:26 *throw 23:43:38 oerjan: No, I'm not actually selected for jury duty, I'm just hating how we go about choosing jurors. 23:44:18 -!- Phantom_Cuber has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:44:22 Notable properties include that for any capital cases, jurors opposed to a death sentence are summarily removed from the jury pool. 23:44:27 -!- FireFly has joined. 23:44:41 ...that was sort of what i was alluding to 23:45:04 Keep in mind that we have a civil law system, wherein the jurors opinions *can in fact set law*. 23:45:30 IIRC, you can refuse to accept the notion that the judge sets what information is and isn't admissable for the jury to hear 23:45:36 as in, they ask you whether you accept that notion or not 23:45:45 I'm not entirely sure what happens if you say no 23:45:50 (this is in the US) 23:45:59 Also, being aware of jury nullification gets you thrown out. 23:46:43 in the UK, jury selection's a lot more determined; they take the first 12 people selected at random, unless there's a really strong reason why they shouldn't judge that trial 23:46:50 such as being related to one of the witnesses or defendants 23:46:54 ais523: See, that would be sane. 23:47:01 or a member of a particular ancient order of lighthouse-keepers 23:47:27 But here, if you are aware that you can rule against the law & evidence because you find it unjust to do so, *you cannot be in a jury*. 23:47:27 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 23:48:53 pikhq: I'm aware 23:49:03 If you personally try to inform a jury of this ability in court, *they have to select a new jury*. 23:49:07 It is so very fucked up. 23:49:31 I've been following the SCO v Novell transcripts, one of them was of the jury selection 23:50:01 Makes a farce of the whole court system if you ask me. 23:51:57 -!- EgoBot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:51:58 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:51:59 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 23:52:01 pikhq: You cannot avoid your destiny ;; I mean the music 23:52:21 "n 2001, a California Supreme Court ruling on a case involving statutory rape led to a new jury instruction that requires jurors to inform the judge whenever a fellow panelist appears to be deciding a case based on his or her dislike of a law." 23:53:01 What the hell is the *point* of a jury if they cannot have an opinion on the law? 23:54:02 pikhq: the law is written by lobbyists; a majority of 12 random people tend to not be lobbyists 23:54:08 pikhq: the US is a country based on ignoring its founding principles 23:54:12 the end 23:54:15 thus they are not competent to decide what the law is 23:54:47 NO ALISE 23:54:56 USA is a country based on COGNITIVE DISSONANCE 23:55:05 ais523: Yeah, fuck the lobbyists with a chainsaw. 23:55:43 Satutory rape... That would be real good source of cases where "not guilty" verdict would be right thing to do. 23:57:26 what if it were your daughter 23:57:52 cheater99: You realise *statutory* rape is consensual sex, right? 23:57:59 That wouldn't change what was the right thing to do. 23:58:18 but children can't consent to sex 23:58:46 s/children/17 year and 364 day olds/ :P 23:59:05 in the UK, they go to real lengths to protect the jurors 23:59:06 Might also get some talking to, but that's not matter of law. 23:59:14 it's illegal to record their faces, for instance 23:59:51 photography's banned in courtrooms; it is legal to make a /painting/ of a court in session, but the artist needs to arrange things such that the jurors' faces can't be seen, normally by conveniently putting a handrail or something in the way 23:59:58 ais523: So... You guys actually have juries as a matter of fact, rather than as a body to delegate the judge's opinion onto.