00:00:16 <Vorpal> zzo38, link to enhanced cweb?
00:00:59 <zzo38> Vorpal: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/cweb/cweb.zip http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/cweb/webmath.zip
00:01:11 <zzo38> (First link is the program itself; second link is the fonts)
00:02:13 <zzo38> Vorpal: Not yet. The gopher server does not automatically index, I make them manually, so it will take a while. Things are usually found on HTTP first. And then later, on both protocols.
00:02:41 <elliott> <catseye> elliott: Sigh. I am downloading the NetBSD 5.0.2 install ISO, via torrent.
00:02:45 <zzo38> However I plan to add it now, just because of reminded
00:02:59 <elliott> <zzo38> You are expected to complain about version 0.3 of Enhanced CWEB now, so that I can fix it and also answer question, please.
00:03:23 <Vorpal> zzo38, some gopher servers does index automatically though
00:04:12 <zzo38> Vorpal: Yes, but then you won't get descriptions and stuff. I do have a auto index script for the stuff in textfile/
00:04:24 <zzo38> (The stuff in textfile/ has no descriptions on its menus)
00:06:44 <catseye> elliott: You talked me into it! Well, not really.
00:06:59 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:07:22 <zzo38> Vorpal: I have now added it to gopher. It is now available over two protocols
00:09:31 <Vorpal> I have to agree with catseye about it though
00:09:56 <zzo38> (It is my intention that most of my stuff will be available over both protocols; however there is some things only useful for one or the other protocol, so I won't make everything listed on both)
00:14:06 <zzo38> Vorpal: Do you have the same complains about Enhanced CWEB that catseye? But catseye tried only normal CWEB at first?
00:16:42 <zzo38> Play solitaire card and win a big spider 2.9 times as big as you and then change their name to AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!
00:18:21 <oerjan> ...which reminds me, it seems like the new neighbors possibly named their dog "Taxi".
00:18:29 <zzo38> (Even if you don't want to, I do want to. Even trade?)
00:20:25 <zzo38> oerjan: What have you heard? Have the neighbors told you they named their dog "Taxi"? Is that for normal reason or for confusing reason, or for the other reason?
00:20:47 * oerjan wants to respond "even so" but fears that might be considered acceptance of the trade
00:21:05 <oerjan> well one of their kids shouted that to it
00:21:50 <oerjan> the evidence isn't yet very reliable
00:22:52 <zzo38> oerjan: You cannot accept the trade. There is currently nothing to trade and anyways it is by computer, so we can't.
00:23:30 <zzo38> But if someone in near here win the big spider 2.9 times as big as me and change their name to AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!! then if I win something else as big, it can trade with you if the other thing is the things you wanted.
00:24:24 <elliott> zzo38: I tried to use Enhanced CWEB but a spider 2.9 times as big as me mauled me.
00:24:30 <elliott> I am currently bleeding profusely and may die soon.
00:25:05 <oerjan> ...land arthropods don't get that big, anyway
00:26:03 <oerjan> though there was this giant sea scorpion or something in the paleozoic, i recall
00:26:05 <zzo38> elliott: Sorry. No refund, since the program doesn't cost any money, therefore the money cannot be refunded. But perhaps be more careful next time, please.
00:26:13 <elliott> zzo38: I'm suing you, then!
00:26:16 <elliott> catseye: still downloading?
00:26:20 <elliott> catseye: add some WEB SEEDS
00:26:33 <catseye> elliott: no, downloading is done. backing up still in progress. also noms
00:26:58 <elliott> catseye: how's the backup going, i don't want to miss the netbsd action
00:27:48 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurypterid
00:28:02 <zzo38> elliott: I can refund the cost of the bet that you win a big spider, but I cannot refund the cost of the Enhanced CWEB program. Sorry.
00:28:03 <catseye> elliott: any significant action of netbsd will probably be tomorrow.
00:28:21 <catseye> (test booting it off the usb stick)
00:28:23 <elliott> catseye: what timezone are you in?
00:29:28 <elliott> catseye: what local times are you usually doing crazy computer shit (i'm going to see if i'll MISS THE ACTION or not)
00:29:29 <oerjan> last weekend in october hasn't been yet
00:29:53 <zzo38> elliott: Fine, OK, but perhaps I can refund the bet. But you can't sue me for the program; the program is provided you are responsible for your own use.
00:29:59 <elliott> "12:29am Sunday (BST) - Time in London, United Kingdom"
00:30:06 <elliott> zzo38: i saw no such disclaimer
00:30:31 <oerjan> elliott: wait it doesn't distinguish DST?
00:30:45 <oerjan> it definitely should still be DST across europe
00:30:47 <elliott> oerjan: in britain we call it BST
00:30:50 <zzo38> elliott: Then you didn't look; it is on line seven.
00:30:51 <elliott> we have a different system i think
00:31:01 <elliott> oerjan: British Summer Time
00:31:03 <oerjan> um what do you call it in winter then?
00:31:17 <elliott> oerjan: we don't have DST in winter
00:31:40 <elliott> oerjan: *annoyingly* there is no acronym to refer to "whatever it is in britain right now"
00:31:44 <elliott> oerjan: so you get to say "British time" or whatever
00:31:51 <catseye> elliott: i have nothing much to do tomorrow. i don't know when i'll get up. with luck, i might be ready to install around noon, but who knows/
00:31:56 <zzo38> % It is distributed WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY, express or implied.
00:32:09 <elliott> catseye: that's 6am for me here! >_>
00:32:36 <zzo38> elliott: You can sue whoever you bet the big spider at.
00:32:37 <catseye> elliott: i'll wait til i see you, then. unless i get bored.
00:32:52 <catseye> i might try installing something else first if i don't see you.
00:32:58 <elliott> catseye: i will probably be on at 8-9 pm your time :P
00:33:24 <elliott> catseye: otoh, i will most likely be here at 10/11am your time (4/5am for me)
00:33:45 <zzo38> elliott: If you are as big as me, send a big spider to me and then I will figure out how much money to refund for that. (Please note this is not a refund for the computer program; but it is still a refund for the same amount of money; so why complain?)
00:34:06 <elliott> zzo38: How am I meant to post you a gigantic spider?
00:34:29 <Vorpal> <zzo38> Vorpal: Do you have the same complains about Enhanced CWEB that catseye? But catseye tried only normal CWEB at first? <-- so did I
00:35:22 <zzo38> elliott: I don't know how. Perhaps call the service that is specifically for that purpose.
00:35:36 <elliott> zzo38: are you *sure* you're not on lsd?
00:35:56 <zzo38> elliott: Yes, I am sure I am not on LSD. I only simulate it.
00:36:08 <pikhq> elliott: Aaah, time zones. How little sense they make.
00:36:25 <Vorpal> elliott, are you talking about one of his games?
00:36:33 <pikhq> elliott: BTW, I highly doubt you use GMT.
00:36:40 <elliott> pikhq: no, we actually do.
00:36:57 <elliott> pikhq: it is possible, I suppose, that all the GMT clocks secretly count leap seconds.
00:37:07 <pikhq> elliott: ... You use the mean solar time at the Royal Observatory?
00:37:09 <elliott> pikhq: but it is *definitely* universally referred to as GMT, no matter what
00:37:14 <zzo38> Vorpal: I think elliott is not, but I am talking about one of Damian Yerrick's game, called: Tetanus on Drugs, or, Lockjaw: The Overdose.
00:37:24 <elliott> pikhq: ok it seems to now be an alias
00:37:27 <elliott> Greenwich Mean Time (GMT) is a term originally referring to mean solar time at the Royal Observatory in Greenwich, London. It is arguably the same as Coordinated Universal Time (UTC) and when this is viewed as a time zone the name Greenwich Mean Time is especially used by bodies connected with the United Kingdom, such as the BBC World Service,[1] the Royal Navy, the Met Office and others.
00:37:28 <elliott> Before the introduction of UTC on 1 January 1972 Greenwich Mean Time (also known as Zulu time) was the same as Universal Time (UT) which is a standard astronomical concept used in many technical fields. Astronomers no longer use the term "Greenwich Mean Time".
00:37:28 <elliott> In the UK, GMT is the official time only during winter; during summer British Summer Time is used. GMT is the same as Western European Time.[2]
00:38:04 <elliott> pikhq: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/Greenwich_clock.jpg
00:38:26 <zzo38> (You don't need to be drunk to play Tetris; the computer can make it drunk for you.)
00:38:33 <pikhq> elliott: Apparently, under the Interpretation Act, it is *literally* GMT.
00:38:34 <Vorpal> elliott, err, 5s of seconds?
00:38:35 <elliott> "British yard" "Two feet" "One foot" "six inches"
00:39:09 <Vorpal> elliott, those roman numerals
00:39:16 <pikhq> elliott: It is literally the mean solar time at the Royal Observatory.
00:39:27 <oerjan> elliott: you're living in the WET zone
00:39:35 <elliott> pikhq: ok, but *nobody* uses GMT to mean that.
00:39:44 <elliott> pikhq: not the BBC, not the Met Office...
00:40:05 <zzo38> I dislike using roman numbers for 24-hour clock; roman numbers should be used for 12-hour clock.
00:40:06 <Vorpal> pikhq, timezones actually make a lot of sense in that people want to be awake when it is daylight. But sure you could start using UTC everywhere and then refer to midday as 22:00 and such
00:40:08 <pikhq> elliott: But de jure, it is.
00:40:17 <elliott> pikhq: de jure yet even the government ignores it :P
00:40:20 <elliott> hey, like the US Constitution!
00:40:22 <Vorpal> elliott, oh a 24h clock
00:40:23 <pikhq> Vorpal: The specific implementations suck.
00:40:37 <elliott> Vorpal: there are timezones that aren't even UTC+n.5
00:40:43 <elliott> N hours and 12 minutes off
00:40:52 <elliott> China has one timezone all the way
00:40:53 <Vorpal> elliott, they are exceptions though
00:41:13 <zzo38> Vorpal: Yes that was one of my ideas too; have no DST or anything like that, just change what is called the first hour of the day at DST, instead of changing what is called eight o'clock
00:41:14 <Vorpal> elliott, yes most countries suck
00:41:16 <elliott> proposal: instead of dividing the globe into discrete sections for timezones
00:41:19 <pikhq> Vorpal: Daylight savings time, being *entirely* arbitrarily drawn, aaand bizarre offsets.
00:41:31 <elliott> i.e. moving one planck length changes your timezone proportionally
00:41:39 <Vorpal> elliott, that would be confusing for most people
00:41:50 <catseye> Driving west, your car's clock would slow down
00:41:51 <elliott> at 1 timezone second per second
00:41:56 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/Timezones2010.png See, the lines chosen suck.
00:42:05 <zzo38> You could have UTC time and sundial time, if that is necessary.
00:42:13 <zzo38> We don't need DST.
00:42:30 <elliott> you know what really sucks?
00:42:33 <elliott> international waters aren't free.
00:42:36 <elliott> freedom of the seas my ass
00:42:40 <elliott> because of "international jurisdiction"
00:42:51 <elliott> if you do something we think's really horrible in international waters, we'll come and get you just because we can!
00:43:11 <pikhq> Note that it has nothing to do with the actual solar time in the region, and sometimes doesn't even vaguely correspond to political boundaries.
00:43:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, yes spain fails at it
00:43:49 <Vorpal> pikhq, Sweden manages quite okay
00:44:16 <pikhq> Why in the *world* is Spain on UTC+1?
00:44:18 <Vorpal> heck I almost live where it is correct
00:45:48 <pikhq> I happen to live right along the UTC+7 meridian. It's a bit of a rarity for North Americans to live close to the meridian for their time zone...
00:45:48 <elliott> 12:00 is whenever the sun rises, no matter what :D
00:45:54 <elliott> 11:59 gets extended until the sun rises
00:46:24 <pikhq> Look at Canada: the UTC+6 meridian happens to be the *border* of the UTC+6 time zone there!
00:46:32 <pikhq> Well, for a decent chunk of it.
00:47:46 <Vorpal> elliott, you are aiming for awkward aren't you?
00:48:07 <elliott> Vorpal: would fit in nicely with eternal september though
00:48:31 <pikhq> Iceland's UTC+0 but is in the ideal UTC+1 and UTC+2 zones...
00:48:46 <elliott> "It's September 65257, 1993, 11:59:7889231."
00:49:08 <pikhq> Oh, and China. Ideal UTC+5 over to ideal UTC+9, but it's all on UTC+8.
00:49:19 <Vorpal> elliott, wait there is one place offset 14?
00:49:29 <elliott> pick a number, it's there.
00:49:35 <elliott> catseye: how's that backup doing :| you are my entertainment
00:49:38 <Vorpal> elliott, 14 > 12 though
00:50:51 <Vorpal> pikhq, actually Sweden is on +2 atm, due to DST
00:51:48 <elliott> catseye: HOW IS IT GOIIIING
00:52:00 <pikhq> And God, the US has so many time zones.
00:52:10 <pikhq> It exists in 11 time zones.
00:52:37 <elliott> Yo momma's so fat, she's in 11 different time zones.
00:52:52 <oerjan> the sun never sets on the US empire
00:52:59 <elliott> pikhq: wait 11? time.gov suggests fewer
00:53:43 <pikhq> elliott: There's two US islands without *legally* defined timezones; they thus are defined by nautical time.
00:54:01 <pikhq> Baker Island & Howland Island are UTC-12, and Wake Island is UTC+12.
00:54:05 <elliott> pikhq: speaking of nautical lament the nonexistence of the freedom of the seas
00:55:59 <catseye> elliott: It's going. I have backed up my windows partition (with exception of some files in the Windows directory that it hangs on copying. I just decided I do not need to retain my Windows directory. Seems sane enough.) I am now copying over my files from Ubuntu
00:56:11 <elliott> catseye: not just copying ~?
00:56:25 <catseye> Most of ~, yes. I think that's all
00:56:40 <catseye> not the whole ubuntu install, that's... no
00:57:04 <catseye> (for windows, though, you're never really sure where it's saving your stuff)
00:58:17 <elliott> catseye: if i were you i'd put the netbsd manual on another usb stick (assuming you have two usb ports...)
00:58:32 <elliott> btw iirc the netbsd installer cd has no option to go to a console, but ^C does it
00:58:40 <elliott> (the software selection is very limited though, i'd just install it)
00:58:52 <elliott> catseye: at least the networking stuff was a bit "wut" when i tried in a vm
00:59:53 <elliott> Mathnerd314: that has been mentioned before. (1) we've been here since december 2002, freenode can go fuck itself,
01:00:04 <elliott> and (2) nobody owns esotericness, so nobody has a real claim to #esoteric, only ##esoteric
01:00:10 <catseye> I OWN ESOTERIC well kind of
01:00:19 <elliott> since nobody's being, or can possibly be, disadvantaged
01:00:27 <elliott> catseye: yeah you invented brainfuck
01:01:02 <elliott> catseye: do you realise that by coming in here and acting all normal you've ruined your deity^Wcelebrity status :)
01:01:16 <catseye> not that it was an extremely un-obvious choice
01:01:42 <elliott> catseye: well at least among the sillier esotericers (i.e. most of us)
01:02:27 <elliott> catseye: i'm pretty sure everyone was convinced you had a complete understanding of what the funge-98 specification was meant to say, and there was only one possible interpretation
01:02:30 <pikhq> Hah. In Alaska, the days between October 6, 1867 and October 18, 1867 never existed.
01:02:34 <elliott> IF ONLY WE COULD MEET THE MAN
01:03:00 <oerjan> THE DAMN RUSSIANS STOLE THEM
01:03:23 <elliott> pikhq: "The British calender act of 1751 / declared the day after Wednesday / September 2nd, 1752 / Would be Thursday, September 14"
01:03:29 <catseye> elliott: glad to be of disillusioning service, i guess
01:03:48 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4Zf1eyWYFs
01:03:51 <Vorpal> <elliott> catseye: i'm pretty sure everyone was convinced you had a complete understanding of what the funge-98 specification was meant to say, and there was only one possible interpretation <-- I suspected it was not the whole truth, what with the behaviour of t
01:03:55 <elliott> (the song that quote's from)
01:04:05 <pikhq> The US purchase of Alaska became effective October 6, 1867, 24:00:00 local time. In doing so, Alaska switched from the Julian calendar to the Gregorian, *and* went to the other side of the International Date Line.
01:04:20 <elliott> pikhq: julian -> gregorian was the name for that quoted change too
01:04:24 <elliott> but lol @ international date line
01:04:52 <catseye> Copying 14x,xxx files, one hour twenty-eight minutes remaining
01:05:07 <pikhq> Oh, and it went from Friday to Friday.
01:05:40 <pikhq> Yes, the day after Friday, October 6 was Friday, October 18.
01:05:59 <elliott> that would make better lyrics
01:06:01 <elliott> catseye: all the way across the sky?
01:07:51 <elliott> *Would be Thursday, September 14 / 1752"
01:08:11 <pikhq> Wow. Many Eastern Orthodox churches still use the Julian calendar.
01:08:20 <pikhq> Because the Gregorian was invented by a Catholic Pope.
01:08:36 <elliott> catseye: not recommended over netbsd, that's for sure. i'm considering installing it myself now
01:08:42 <elliott> sure it's ports but... urggh
01:09:07 <elliott> catseye: oh btw pkg_add doesn't work out of the box in netbsd. you have to set a mirror environment variable. it's explained in the big ol' manual ... you probably know all this, i'm just relaying some issues i had
01:09:11 <catseye> Because I'm going to need an understudy in case NetBSD gets in a traffic accident
01:09:23 <pikhq> Same reason Protestant countries in Europe were reluctant to switch.
01:09:31 <elliott> catseye: You /could/ install 10.10, but you'd want to start hating it and aiming to replace it quickly.
01:09:36 <elliott> Otherwise you become complacent.
01:09:45 <catseye> elliott: I know nothing. But I might be able to use my awesome BSD intuitions developed in previous escapades
01:10:10 <elliott> catseye: "Also, FreeBSD offers a nice alternative interface to NetBSD Manual Pages."
01:10:29 <elliott> catseye: Put this on another USB stick: http://netbsd.org/docs/guide/en/netbsd.html
01:10:35 <elliott> That's the entire NetBSD guide in one HTML file.
01:10:48 <catseye> elliott: ports kind of is awful. pkgsrc is kinda sorta ok but also has same root in awful as ports. what pkg manager for Kitten?
01:10:53 <elliott> Mathnerd314: nothing OpenBSD is the best
01:11:04 <elliott> catseye: it's the bees bollocks. wait...
01:11:10 <catseye> elliott: WHAT UNIX SYSTEM AM I SUPPOSED TO MAN THAT AT
01:11:37 <elliott> catseye: btw you have to download pkgsrc in netbsd :D
01:11:52 <elliott> seriously recommend downloading that html file. i had quite a few "wtf" moments
01:11:56 <elliott> and it always explained them
01:12:02 <pikhq> elliott: ... It gets worse.
01:12:14 <pikhq> elliott: They use a *Revised* Julian Calendar.
01:12:14 <elliott> catseye: pkg(8) is basically the most awesome package manager you can imagine, ever.
01:12:23 <pikhq> elliott: Sorry, *many* of them do.
01:12:29 <catseye> gnome desktop froze for a moment
01:12:38 <pikhq> elliott: Move the calendar back 13 days and then use a slightly different leap year rule.
01:12:42 <elliott> pikhq: "In 2800 the two calendars will diverge again, though more slowly than the Julian and Gregorian do."
01:12:43 <catseye> halfway bwteen two virtual desktops
01:13:01 <elliott> catseye: totally install xfce next time. or. maybe assemble your own if you're crazy enough
01:13:05 <elliott> from scattered window managers
01:13:11 <elliott> actually what WM did you use when you used bsd?
01:13:22 <catseye> elliott: I used blackbox most of the time
01:13:27 <elliott> coppro was so promising before he discovered all that shitty software everyone loves
01:13:32 <elliott> catseye: i can't stand the *boxes
01:13:37 <elliott> catseye: they're so... "1337 hax0r"
01:14:06 <catseye> it was not something i was fond of, just something that worked
01:14:09 <elliott> coppro: amend will never forgive you
01:14:19 <coppro> elliott: if you ever finish it, I'm willing to try it
01:14:23 <elliott> catseye: pekwm is a pretty nice minimalish-but-works-normally WM
01:14:28 <coppro> in the meanwhile, I will be happy powerusing with vim and xmonad
01:14:34 <catseye> elliott: i will totally go to a tiling wm if i can
01:14:47 <elliott> catseye: nice idea in theory. but trust me. they're terribly designed
01:14:48 <coppro> tiling wms increase efficiency
01:14:51 <coppro> it's as simple as that
01:14:54 <catseye> i try that at work (ON WINDOWS 7 -- it's a blast, man)
01:15:06 <elliott> coppro: you're either trolling or stupid enough to think making an assertion like that makes it true without justification
01:15:09 <coppro> elliott: terribly designed in what sense?
01:15:09 <catseye> coppro: they CAN SOMETIMES if THINGS WORK
01:15:24 <elliott> catseye: modern tiling wms - "Stop wasting time on window management! Waste time pressing our hotkeys instead because it never gets it right the first time."
01:15:31 <elliott> catseye: if you're hardcore try http://www.jfc.org.uk/software/lwm.html
01:15:44 <coppro> elliott: you've make some great assertions without justification. I thought I'd join the party
01:15:59 <elliott> coppro: i was having a conversation with catseye clearly expressing an opinion
01:16:01 <coppro> catseye: I have had no issues getting xmonad to work. I have no experience with other tiling wms.
01:16:03 <catseye> elliott: I just want a billion jillion virtual desktops and intuitive navigation between them and the ability to make some things like chat windows highly notifivisible.
01:16:14 <Vorpal> elliott, you dislike tiling wms?
01:16:18 <elliott> catseye: lwm has exactly 1 desktop, so :P
01:16:23 <coppro> 20:14 < elliott> catseye: nice idea in theory. but trust me. they're terribly designed
01:16:28 <elliott> Vorpal: no -- my favourite WM is a tiling WM. unfortunately nobody has implemented it yet
01:16:35 <elliott> coppro: "catseye:", "trust me" (i.e. my opinion)
01:16:37 <Vorpal> elliott, what about dwm?
01:16:43 <elliott> maybe i'll take it to /msg instead.
01:16:48 <Vorpal> elliott, you can't say suckless software sucks!
01:16:53 <elliott> Vorpal: dwm is cool, sure, but i wouldn't use it :P
01:16:58 <coppro> elliott: "trust me" does not sound like an opinion. It sounds like "I am right and will not waste time explaining it"
01:17:02 <elliott> Vorpal: dwm is at least saner than most tiling WMs
01:17:09 <elliott> coppro: and "literally" often means "NOT LITERALLY AT ALL"
01:17:16 <elliott> WHAT IS IT WHAT IS IT WHAAAAT
01:17:23 <coppro> elliott: I mean from normal usage
01:17:28 <coppro> that is what people use "trust me" to mean
01:17:34 <elliott> catseye: no, it's me mostly agreeing with Vorpal's joke and it's coppro picking stupid nits
01:17:36 <coppro> regardless of its denotative meaning
01:17:39 <Vorpal> elliott, I will start using figuratively to mean "as written"
01:17:42 <elliott> coppro: only idiots. i hope you realise i'm not an idiot
01:18:05 <coppro> elliott: uh, no, that's the standard connotative meaning of the phrase
01:18:08 <coppro> at least where I come from
01:18:19 <elliott> coppro: "trust me" basically means nothing really
01:18:27 <catseye> So, at work, I use a tiling "window manager" for Windows called "bug.n" (great name huh), and it *kind of* works. But, Windows' window GUIs are rarely designed with tiling in mind.
01:18:42 <catseye> So I will just reiterate what I said about a billion jillion virtual desktops.
01:19:13 <elliott> catseye: do you use subpixel smoothing? if so be prepared to stop doing so; other stuff doesn't ship with the patched freetype that makes it non-hideous
01:19:19 <elliott> and i mean hideous (blue. everywhere.)
01:19:29 <elliott> catseye: the website is a bit strange
01:19:31 <elliott> A fork of dwm 5.8, a dynamic window manager for X, incuding the flextile patch.
01:19:32 <elliott> Written inAutoHotkey script
01:19:32 <elliott> Operating systemMicrosoft Windows
01:19:39 <elliott> apparently fork means rewrite loosely based on
01:19:42 <elliott> catseye: do you use ubuntu?
01:19:55 <elliott> right you don't, no need to worry
01:19:55 <catseye> OH! AutoHotKey script is a FANTASTIC language, just like NSIS Installer language is FANTASTIC.
01:21:01 <elliott> coppro: so how goes my article publication HUH
01:21:25 <pikhq> It sucks being sick.
01:21:40 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
01:21:51 <elliott> catseye: oh btw the difference between FFSv1 and FFSv2 is that FFSv1 uses 32-bit inodes and FFSv2 doesn't. so if you have a partition >1 Tb... :P also only FFSv2 has journaling. it might be worth using just for that
01:22:00 <elliott> UFSv2 = FFSv2, and none of the other filesystems are worth using
01:22:10 <elliott> catseye: THAT IS WHAT I HAVE LEARNED.
01:22:40 <coppro> you know I'm not an editor, and you're getting annoying.
01:22:54 <coppro> (read: I may /ignore you if you ask again)
01:23:05 <pikhq> elliott: Gentoo's had a patent violation USE flag for ages now. :)
01:23:17 <elliott> coppro: SORRY I WILL REFRAIN FROM JOKING IN FUTURE PLEASE FORGIVE ME
01:23:23 <elliott> pikhq: of course it can be done it's just more of a pain
01:23:35 <elliott> pikhq: and if you're not crazy like you or me, it's easier just to turn it off
01:23:46 <coppro> pikhq: yes it does suck :(
01:23:54 <pikhq> elliott: Yeah. That sort of thing happens to be one of the few things that I genuinely *absolutely adore* about Gentoo.
01:23:55 <coppro> I got food poisoning last week. :( What's wrong with you?
01:24:11 <elliott> pikhq: USE flag proliferation is irritating
01:24:16 <catseye> yeah i do not have anything > 1 tb but thanks for letting me know
01:24:20 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: i don't know and i really don't care
01:24:24 <elliott> catseye: yes but journaling is nice
01:24:27 <Mathnerd314> coppro, pikhq: for me, being sick means I get to stay home and do fun stuff :-)
01:24:28 <pikhq> You are given the ability to flip off patent and trademark laws within the constraints of the package manager.
01:24:35 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: It's the weekend.
01:24:42 <elliott> pikhq: the patent is only valid in the us
01:24:45 <pikhq> coppro: Like a flu or something.
01:24:57 <elliott> it's really just all the US users who are breaking the law
01:25:05 <elliott> catseye: Netcraft confirms it.
01:25:07 <pikhq> elliott: Said patent expired, anyways.
01:25:08 <GreaseMonkey> Kirk McKusick and Poul-Henning Kamp extended the FreeBSD FFS and UFS layers to support a new variant, called UFS2, which adds 64-bit block pointers (allowing volumes to grow up to 8 zettabytes), variable-sized blocks (similar to extents), extended flag fields, additional 'birthtime' stamps, extended attribute support and POSIX1.e ACLs. UFS2 became the default UFS version starting with FreeBSD 5.0.
01:25:11 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: well, maybe it'll last until monday or tuesday
01:25:25 <elliott> catseye: FFSv1 is still the default NetBSD filesystem
01:25:36 <elliott> catseye: but it's probably worth going FFSv2 just for the journaling
01:25:46 <coppro> Mathnerd314: that's not sick
01:26:01 <coppro> that's society being hypochondriac
01:26:08 <elliott> catseye: although http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/PH_Kamp.jpg that tshirt is dangerously furry, do you want to risk another AROS?!
01:26:15 <elliott> HE CO-INVENTED FFSV1 BE VERY AFRAID
01:26:27 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: I'm too sick to genuinely *enjoy* doing stuff.
01:26:33 <elliott> catseye: I WANT TO HEAR STORIES
01:26:39 <pikhq> Well, anything that requires thought. Or action.
01:26:45 <elliott> catseye: although i have him down as a cool dude
01:26:46 <catseye> maybe i will just not use computers from now on
01:26:49 <coppro> Mathnerd314: hahahahaha
01:26:57 <elliott> catseye: freebsd jails, Varnish cache, popularised "bikeshedding"??
01:27:06 <coppro> Mathnerd314: have you ever had a flu?
01:27:20 <elliott> catseye: what's wrong with him, honest question
01:27:27 <catseye> elliott: he is probably not a bad guy, he is just a vortex of drama
01:27:51 <elliott> catseye: apparently he only contributed bits of the FFSv2 *implementation* SO YOU SHOULD BE FINE
01:27:52 <catseye> really there are other freebsd'ers who i would be pointing fingers at
01:27:57 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Sleeping is somewhat difficult when you have difficulty breathing.
01:27:59 <elliott> or you could just stick with the defaults
01:28:06 <catseye> if it came to "problem personalities"
01:28:08 <elliott> and just hope it never crashes leaving you wanting journalling
01:28:15 <GreaseMonkey> <catseye> FAT12 or nothing, baby! <-- the only real file system i've ever coded a driver for
01:28:19 <elliott> catseye: colin percival is fun, i like him, despite his ego being unspeakably immense
01:28:29 <pikhq> GreaseMonkey: You could probably get FAT16 or FAT32 going easily from there.
01:28:41 <catseye> i remember when colin percival was accepted as a committer. he was SOOOOOOOOOOO EXCITED
01:28:55 <elliott> catseye: well he's probably aspergers or something.
01:29:04 <pikhq> GreaseMonkey: No, FAT32 is just FAT with 32 instead of 16.
01:29:15 <pikhq> GreaseMonkey: The long filename stuff is a FAT extension that works on all variants.
01:29:26 <catseye> elliott: i ... must have been around 2001
01:29:32 <Mathnerd314> coppro, pikhq: my experience has always been that lying in bed, hiding under the covers, it's warm and humid and dark enough to a) stop my nose and b) let me use my computer
01:29:54 <GreaseMonkey> pikhq: no if you've looked at FAT32 you would have noticed that it uses more than just the first block for info and treats the root directory differently.
01:30:28 <catseye> he had just presented his paper on an exploit based on... i don't remember
01:30:34 <elliott> catseye: he did a reddit "ask me questions" type thing a while back, someone asked him whether he thought he'd change the world and he said that he'd basically accepted that he would end up doing so no matter what
01:30:47 <elliott> yeah he's... he... timing, yeah
01:31:01 <coppro> Mathnerd314: if you tried that with a proper flu, you'd have a computer covered in vomit
01:31:06 <pikhq> Oh, it does have another structure.
01:31:09 <coppro> and you'd still feel awful
01:31:18 <coppro> (ever had hot-cold cycles?)
01:31:19 <elliott> it runs on puters. also vomit
01:31:22 <catseye> but if we're gossiping, then, oh yes, dag-erling smorgrav and kris whatshisname, THEY made the freebsd experience ENTIRELY pleasant.
01:31:34 <GreaseMonkey> Below are years 2004 and 2005 public logs provided by clog (an IRC channel logging "bot") for #esoteric on the Freenode (formerly known as Open Projects (formerly known as Linpeople)) IRC network.
01:31:34 <Vorpal> <GreaseMonkey> it can also be safely ignored <-- what exactly is vfat
01:31:46 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, iirc fat file systems list as vfat when I mount them
01:32:05 <Mathnerd314> coppro: usually I can tell at least 10-20s before I'm going to vomit
01:32:06 <pikhq> GreaseMonkey: The FAT32 information structure seems pretty simple.
01:32:19 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, can't be ignored safely then :P
01:32:23 <coppro> Mathnerd314: then you have not had a flu
01:32:23 <GreaseMonkey> pikhq: yeah, but it is a little more than just "change 16 to 32"
01:32:40 <pikhq> Whereas FAT16 is just that.
01:32:47 <elliott> <GreaseMonkey> latest log: 10.10.16
01:32:49 <GreaseMonkey> Vorpal: actually you can ignore them, i think it's a weird combination of the disk label flag and some other flag
01:33:09 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, will mess up the fs if you move stuff around, no?
01:33:21 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: that's because hcf jumped off a bridge in 2005
01:33:23 <elliott> or rather stopped maintaining clog
01:33:24 <catseye> I should try this unetbootin
01:33:26 <pikhq> Vorpal: It was horribly hacked such that if used with an implementation that doesn't know about it, you just get 8.3 filenames.
01:33:37 <elliott> catseye: you can't if you're backing up can you?
01:34:15 <elliott> i know nothing about FSes -- can a file be multiple inodes?
01:34:21 <elliott> i.e. non-continuous across the disk?
01:35:13 <pikhq> Vorpal: It adds entries into the directory entry that are marked volume label, system, hidden, read only, *and* point to completely empty files.
01:35:22 <catseye> elliott: gonna see how it works. i can create the install usb on one port while backing up? i think?
01:35:31 <elliott> catseye: yes. but not test it obviously
01:35:39 <pikhq> Vorpal: Which makes ignorant filesystem drivers just ignore them.
01:35:45 <elliott> catseye: just open the program, put the ISO in, check that the ISO box is the chosen one
01:35:51 <elliott> catseye: pick the USB drive device
01:36:00 <elliott> catseye: oh if you already have stuff on the stick just delete the files
01:36:22 <elliott> catseye: (don't zero out the stick, it needs a fat partition to work)
01:36:30 <elliott> it *won't* automatically delete the files for you
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01:36:35 <catseye> using newwww stick for nwo
01:37:00 <elliott> catseye: OTOH this means that you can put http://netbsd.org/docs/guide/en/netbsd.html and http://netbsd.org/docs/pkgsrc/index.html on before or after using unetbootin
01:37:10 <elliott> although you might have to mount it manually afterwards
01:37:13 <elliott> actually i'd just put them on another stick
01:37:19 <pikhq> Oh, and the long filenames are always UTF-16, even if the system code page isn't Unicode.
01:37:37 <pikhq> (normal FAT filenames are based on the system code page)
01:38:05 <catseye> one is already on my other "main" stick. the pkgsrc index, i don't have, might come in handy
01:38:43 <catseye> elliott: um that's just the toc
01:39:01 <elliott> "The pkgsrc guide - for users and developers of pkgsrc, the centralized package build and management system . Available formats for download: PostScript and PDF"
01:39:06 <elliott> postscript and pdf won't help ofc
01:39:32 <elliott> catseye: http://www.netbsd.org/docs/pkgsrc/pkgsrc.html
01:40:18 <GreaseMonkey> did you know that the ISO standard for PDF is downloadable in the PDF format
01:40:28 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: that's not really that amusing
01:40:34 <elliott> it's not like you're going to try and implement pdf without a reader :)
01:40:44 <elliott> although it is a self-describing document
01:43:03 <elliott> catseye: anyway yes, if you get it working i will be very happy and consider switching myself
01:43:13 <elliott> catseye: i think if you can get networking working you should be good to go.
01:43:27 <Gregor> Give him the stick DON'T GIVE HIM THE STICK
01:43:47 <catseye> 5Cwow badly machined USB stick
01:44:44 <catseye> elliott: Was a bitch to "open" it so the USB connector is out; and when it's out, it's crooked
01:44:50 <elliott> (2,147,483,648 bytes, on the other hand, is 2 GiB.)
01:44:59 <elliott> ais definitely knows this.
01:45:14 <catseye> let's just hope it works ok
01:45:18 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: your history is laughably inaccurate.
01:45:27 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: gigawatt. gigahertz.
01:45:35 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: the prefix is G.
01:45:37 <elliott> computing wasn't there first.
01:45:46 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: PREFIXES DO NOT CHANGE DEPENDING ON THE UNIT
01:45:49 <elliott> that's the whole POINT of prefixes!
01:45:52 <GreaseMonkey> yeah, but when computing came out, division was EXPENSIVE
01:45:54 <Sgeo> Isn't there something with HD manufacturers using the Non GiB?
01:46:09 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: it's nothing to do with division
01:46:11 <elliott> you're just making shit up
01:46:17 <elliott> it's because memory is addressed in silicon
01:46:23 <elliott> and our CPUs are based on bits
01:46:27 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: see http://www.tarsnap.com/GB-why.html
01:46:31 <elliott> This is all a conspiracy by hard drive manufacturers who want to cheat us out of the disk space we're paying for!
01:46:31 <elliott> We all love good conspiracy theories... but really, this isn't about evil megacorporations trying to cheat you. Hard drive prices are determined almost entirely by competition between manufacturers, so if hard drives were labelled in GiB instead of being labelled in GB, we'd be paying the same number of dollars for the same number of bytes anyway — if this really was a global conspiracy, it would be one of the dumbest conspiracies ever.
01:46:46 <catseye> elliott: you will consider *switching*? heh... ok
01:46:54 <elliott> catseye: wait, what's so amusing?
01:46:58 <elliott> catseye: i mean from ubuntu to netbsd
01:47:09 <GreaseMonkey> i say metric GB when i mean they use the SI unit or something
01:47:21 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: I'm not going to shut up just because you can't think of a response.
01:47:32 <elliott> Especially not after you invented about 10 explanations because I told you the previous ones were wrong.
01:47:40 <Sgeo> elliott, I think the idea is that it's more of a psychological thing
01:47:48 <elliott> Your laptop uses 2048 non-metric mebibytes.
01:48:03 <elliott> Sgeo: seriously. there is no conspiracy. there is no trickery.
01:48:07 <catseye> elliott: i just never considered running netbsd as a "main" OS before, i guess
01:48:18 <elliott> catseye: it's what you're crazy enough to be doing, isn't it?
01:48:21 <GreaseMonkey> <elliott> Your laptop uses 2048 non-metric mebibytes. <-- NOW you're wrong
01:48:38 <catseye> well, with any luck, dual-boot windows and netbsd. so i have an "out" of sorts
01:48:41 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: What? It really doesn't.
01:48:50 <elliott> You're crazy. RAM is sold in powers of two.
01:49:13 <Sgeo> Likely to be reported by OSes as MB
01:49:22 <elliott> 2 GiB of RAM = 2048 MiB of RAM = 2'147'483'648 bytes
01:49:30 <catseye> and each one multiplies the space by 2
01:49:30 <GreaseMonkey> it wouldn't change the number of address lines
01:50:03 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: they. really. don't.
01:50:14 <elliott> hell, even see that dreaded page again:
01:50:17 <elliott> [[You're right: If you buy a "1GB" stick of RAM, it will hold 2^30 bytes of data.]]
01:50:27 <Sgeo> http://thanksants.com/alise
01:50:46 <elliott> Thanks Elliott... Thelliott.
01:50:53 <Sgeo> If by metric MB you mean 10^whatever bytes... you're insane
01:51:13 <GreaseMonkey> if this were measured in GiB that would be 1.9GiB
01:51:23 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: when it says KB
01:51:30 <elliott> because that's what most things mean by KB
01:51:41 <elliott> 2001772 KiB = 2049814528 bytes
01:51:59 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: ok, something is rounding it.
01:52:04 <elliott> you *do not* get RAM in that size
01:52:09 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: what reports that?
01:52:16 <elliott> it may be reserving some RAM for itself
01:52:33 <Vorpal> could be used by graphics circuits
01:52:36 <GreaseMonkey> <elliott> GreaseMonkey: ok, i'm at risk of being wrong
01:52:55 <Vorpal> elliott, not most likely, it would use an even number of MB
01:53:08 <Vorpal> elliott, most probably it would
01:53:10 <elliott> Vorpal: it's more likely than RAM is being sold in non-powers of two, which *does* *not* *happen*
01:53:14 <elliott> Vorpal: bios reserves some too iirc
01:53:40 <GreaseMonkey> elliott: they sell flash memory in non powers of two
01:53:48 <GreaseMonkey> what's to stop them selling RAM in non powers of two?
01:53:58 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: no they don't
01:54:01 <elliott> at least not that i've seen
01:54:06 <elliott> if they do, it'll just have some inaccessible
01:54:09 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: ok, here's a challenge
01:54:12 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: http://newegg.com/
01:54:15 <elliott> find me some non-power-of-two RAM
01:54:24 <Vorpal> elliott, my system have a total of 1502 MiB RAM on my desktop. Not shared with gpu since gpu has it's own
01:54:30 <fizzie> You can look at the physical memory map in dmesg; there's all kinds of messiness there.
01:54:48 <elliott> Vorpal: so what you said contradicts nothing i said :)
01:54:52 <Vorpal> elliott, nominally it has 1.5 GB/GiB
01:54:59 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: dear god, he doesn't, i was there when you said it
01:55:00 <Sgeo> What happens if you put in a 512MiB stick and a 1GiB stick?
01:55:10 <GreaseMonkey> and while ais can get annoying i have more respect for him than you
01:55:56 <GreaseMonkey> or should i revert to "drivemakers' gigabytes"?
01:56:20 <elliott> it is rare for most people in this channel to be abject morons who grasp at straws and use ideas of respect to dismiss facts.
01:56:41 <Vorpal> elliott, it does not seem to be a power of two
01:56:44 <GreaseMonkey> elliott: no, you're just insanely loud and opinionated
01:56:53 <Vorpal> elliott, should be 1512 really
01:56:53 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: only when people like you make sweeping statements
01:56:57 <elliott> i like to annoy them. works doesn't it?
01:57:25 <elliott> Vorpal: something's reserved somewhere obviously
01:57:30 <elliott> it's rather non-exact in my experience
01:57:37 <elliott> but the ram is still always sold as powers of two, which is the point
01:57:48 <Vorpal> elliott, "sold as" != "is" ;P
01:57:49 <elliott> a "2G" stick of ram is always 2 GiB
01:57:56 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: oh seriously, fuck off.
01:58:01 <Vorpal> elliott, even memtest doesn't think I have exactly 1512 MB
01:58:12 <elliott> Vorpal: but i'm talking about sold as here.
01:58:18 <catseye> Vorpal | MemTotal: 1539008 kB
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01:58:37 <elliott> Vorpal: I swear to never be awful to you ever again. Now I know how bad it could be.
01:58:47 <elliott> Vorpal: You are an angel of perfection.
01:59:29 <catseye> I seem to have MemTotal: 1023972 kB
01:59:41 <elliott> catseye: were you asking what pkg(8) was before btw?
01:59:44 <elliott> i can explain the basic design if you want
01:59:51 <catseye> but there is no guarantee that is all of the ram in the system, is there?
01:59:54 <Vorpal> elliott, I would force you to watch graphs of statistics about panoramas all day long :P
02:00:00 <catseye> just the total that the OS sees
02:00:09 <GreaseMonkey> how would i find out how much RAM was allocated to the GPU?
02:00:16 <elliott> Vorpal: Lovely. Sounds wonderful. I'll look at it with my 4 GiB of non-metric RAM.
02:00:28 <elliott> catseye: are you sure you want the whole boring story??? 'cuz i totally have it lined up man
02:01:07 <Vorpal> elliott, that would reserve some memory
02:01:09 <catseye> elliott: right now might not be the BEST time for me to absorb it, but, package managers have always been an annoyance to me, so i will probably recognize a lot of it.
02:01:19 <Vorpal> elliott, while BIOS stuff would be visible to the OS
02:02:14 <elliott> catseye: Packages are built on layers of abstraction; a package for a "typical" autotools thing will just use some autotools library and be maybe 10-15 lines. More complicated stuff would be longer, obviously. Because, you know, building on abstractions. This is CS 101.
02:02:24 <elliott> catseye: We have "metapackages" -- actually just packages but it's a semi-useful distinction.
02:02:29 <elliott> catseye: Basically packages can take arguments/options.
02:02:33 <catseye> well, ports builds on abstractions and is STUPID
02:02:39 <elliott> catseye: Also every package can be given --arch and be compiled for that architecture.
02:02:46 <catseye> because its language is MAKE, fuckin MAKE man!
02:02:59 <elliott> It gets put into /arch/THEARCH-netbsd-netbsd/ as a root.
02:03:13 <elliott> e.g. /arch/i686-netbsd-netbsd/bin/ls
02:03:18 <Vorpal> <elliott> catseye: Also every package can be given --arch and be compiled for that architecture. <-- surely there are some arch specific packages?
02:03:20 <elliott> Obviously if you have x86_64 you can run this without issues.
02:03:27 <elliott> Vorpal: There is a list of supported architectures you can set in each package.
02:03:33 <elliott> catseye: Something like a cross-compiler.
02:03:39 <elliott> catseye: A Canadian cross would look like this:
02:04:06 <elliott> # pkg ins --arch=ppc --build=arm --target=x86
02:04:20 <Vorpal> elliott, no package name?
02:04:26 <elliott> # pkg ins gcc-cross --arch=ppc --build=arm --target=x86
02:04:48 <elliott> catseye: This would mean "on a PPC architecture (this will work if you have some sort of automatic PPC emulator configured), build a gcc cross compiler that is an ARM executable, that spits out x86 executables."
02:04:51 <Vorpal> elliott, can you do canadian cross for llvm hm
02:04:55 <elliott> obviously normally you'd omit --arch because...
02:05:01 <elliott> well because it only controls the build process
02:05:05 <elliott> so usually you'd want it to be native
02:05:07 <catseye> cool unetbootin supports floppy i could make befos boot usb!
02:05:07 <elliott> anyway that'd then install in
02:05:15 <elliott> /arch/arm-netbsd-netbsd/...
02:05:22 <Vorpal> elliott, that isn't what --build means iirc?
02:05:27 <elliott> Vorpal: i forget. whatever. --host.
02:05:31 <Vorpal> elliott, isn't --build the system used to build the cross compiler
02:05:36 <Vorpal> --host is where it runs
02:05:38 <elliott> Vorpal: shut up you get the idea :D
02:05:39 <elliott> catseye: Also, we use the package manager for system configuration.
02:05:41 <Vorpal> and --target is what it compiles to
02:05:49 <elliott> catseye: for instance: say we have some default X configuration files that start "the default window manager".
02:05:58 <catseye> elliott: this does not seem to be addressing my own particular pet peeves but ok
02:05:59 <elliott> catseye: # pkg ins default-x11-wm --wm=pekwm
02:06:08 <elliott> catseye: this would conflict with all other arguments to --wm so you could only have one at a time
02:06:12 <elliott> catseye: so we do a lot of configuration with this
02:06:19 <elliott> catseye: i probably have addressed your peeves -- name them
02:06:20 <catseye> wait the last might part i'm not sure
02:06:22 <Vorpal> catseye, what are your pet peeves then?
02:06:23 <elliott> i'll tell you if i've thought of them
02:06:58 <catseye> package managers are imperative stomp stomp there it's installed should be declarative what packages ARE or ARE NOT on system
02:07:14 <Vorpal> catseye, oh, you mean like that nixos thingy?
02:07:19 <elliott> catseye: there will be a slight functional bent to it. of course.
02:07:31 <Vorpal> elliott, why not as far?
02:07:33 <catseye> i have never heard of nixos and will soon accuse you of MAKING it UP
02:07:34 <elliott> catseye: it will be more functional than you might think though
02:07:41 <elliott> Vorpal: because i want to maintain a distro, not an entirely new configuration of everything :D
02:07:48 <elliott> Vorpal: same reason i'm not sandboxing everything
02:08:01 <Vorpal> catseye, it isn't made up
02:08:35 <Vorpal> elliott, oh, when do you think this will be implemented? Before or after DNF?
02:08:58 <elliott> Vorpal: as soon as school stops taking up 90% of my time. so, maybe you can expect work to start in the half-term holiday.
02:09:11 <elliott> if i don't end up watching youtube for the entire duration
02:09:21 <elliott> Vorpal: it's deliberately not quite as ambitious as my real goals
02:09:25 <elliott> merely because ubuntu is irritating.
02:09:27 <Vorpal> elliott, and when do we get the capability-based-or-whatever-os-the-current-fad elliottOS?
02:09:45 <elliott> Vorpal: hey elliottOS is not faddish, it's more curmudgeonly, most of the stuff i want isn't in fashion :P
02:09:56 <elliott> also, that project is and always has been a platonic ideal. if anything it will be my life's work.
02:10:07 <Vorpal> elliott, okay, but your own fad
02:10:09 <elliott> i do not anticipate calling anything 1.0 even in the next decade.
02:10:16 <Vorpal> elliott, one day it is smalltalk and capabilities
02:10:27 <Vorpal> elliott, the next it is lisp and one bit address space
02:10:29 <elliott> Vorpal: note: i have never said i will use a certain language for elliottOS
02:10:35 <catseye> i so totally should have bought corn chips when i was at whole foods. oh well
02:10:36 <elliott> one address space has always been a goal
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02:10:41 <elliott> capabilities have always been a goal
02:10:47 <elliott> the language has always been and will always be in total flux :)
02:10:56 <Vorpal> elliott, their relative importance changed a lot
02:11:10 <elliott> well, what's the point of vague design if you can't change your mind day-to-day? :)
02:11:30 <Sgeo> "One address space"?
02:11:37 <Vorpal> elliott, still I think you and zzo should join efforts :P
02:11:48 <elliott> Sgeo: no ram/disk dichotomy
02:11:52 <catseye> VORPAL HAVE YOU EVER PLAYED ZORK
02:11:54 <Sgeo> I assume anything attempting to access memory it shouldn't have access to gets an error of some .... OH
02:12:01 <Sgeo> There are reasons for that
02:12:13 <Sgeo> Well, maybe not for filesystems
02:12:14 <elliott> no there aren't. not like you think.
02:12:17 <Sgeo> But HDs are slower
02:12:24 <catseye> because if not you totally should
02:12:26 <elliott> that is well accounted for
02:12:28 <Vorpal> catseye, alas no, I played collosal cave of course
02:12:38 <catseye> gah collosal cave! 2nd rate
02:12:43 <Sgeo> At the very least, programs need to know whether a block of memory is RAM or HD
02:12:48 <Vorpal> catseye, it was the first!
02:12:50 <elliott> also there are no programs
02:12:55 <elliott> the design is much less simplistic than you think
02:13:02 <elliott> (multics did a form of it iirc)
02:13:12 <catseye> Vorpal: yes it has that. but it's not as cool.
02:13:26 <Vorpal> catseye, being first makes it quite cool
02:13:30 <catseye> "dungeon" is the best thing to ever come out of MIT.
02:13:49 <Sgeo> So when a thingy accidentally uses HD for something very volatile and constantly changing, what then?
02:13:57 <elliott> Sgeo: they don't get the choice.
02:13:58 <catseye> Vorpal: the very very eary versions where it was just a text-based spelunking simulator: THOSE would be cool.
02:14:02 <elliott> memory and HD are managed for them. properly.
02:14:09 <catseye> but i don't know if they exist anymore.
02:14:18 <Sgeo> The OS determines what changes quickly and what doesn't?
02:14:19 <elliott> catseye: well there's the first official one
02:14:26 <elliott> before fantasy-type stuff got added
02:14:28 <elliott> Sgeo: it's not that naive.
02:14:36 <elliott> Sgeo: also, volatile stuff is still saved. for a reason.
02:14:41 <catseye> elliott: really? if that's available i want to see it
02:14:45 <elliott> catseye: hey, one of the questions on the ECDL test involved zork (in a minor way)
02:15:13 <elliott> (ECDL = really basic IT qualification; I'm doing it at school...)
02:15:22 <catseye> European Computer Driving Licence
02:15:30 * Sgeo makes a note to self to only use EhirdOS on systems with solid-state storage
02:15:34 <catseye> HEY WAIT computers sholdn't be allowed to drive!
02:15:49 <Sgeo> catseye, they already do
02:16:22 <elliott> Sgeo: you don't understand the design at all.
02:16:25 <elliott> also you miscapitalised my name
02:17:01 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to SGeo.
02:18:13 <elliott> Crowther had explored the Mammoth Cave in the early 1970s, and created a vector map based on surveys of parts of the real cave, but the text game is a completely separate entity, created during the 1975-76 academic year [5] and featuring fantasy elements such as an axe-throwing dwarf and a magic bridge.
02:18:13 <elliott> Crowther/Woods Adventure (1977) running on a PDP-10
02:18:13 <elliott> The version that is best known today was the result of a collaboration with Don Woods, a graduate student who discovered the game on a computer at Stanford University[6] and made significant expansions and improvements, with Crowther's blessing. A big fan of Tolkien, he introduced additional fantasy elements, such as elves and a troll.
02:18:18 <catseye> elliott: i Now haff NetBSD on a USB stuck. in some Esotericke Formatte. I need to test this
02:18:21 <elliott> catseye: so it still had some fantasy stuff but less
02:18:27 <elliott> catseye: explore the usb stick in GNOME
02:18:31 <elliott> catseye: the files should all be there
02:19:27 <elliott> Crowther's original source code for Adventure (as recovered from Don Woods's student account at Stanford)
02:19:28 <elliott> http://jerz.setonhill.edu/if/crowther/
02:20:18 <elliott> catseye: so you'll want adv{f4,dat}.77-03-11
02:20:25 <elliott> for the earliest possible experience
02:20:30 <elliott> catseye: btw that's the same don woods as intercal
02:20:33 <elliott> but you probably knew that
02:21:45 <elliott> # sudo aptitude install fortran77-compiler
02:22:21 <elliott> catseye: maybe i need to cat the data and source files
02:23:29 <catseye> probably no code survives from the stage when it was just the spelunking simulator -- no fantasy. but it doubtless passed through that state
02:24:05 <catseye> i have no idea about teh fortan. it would be A Project.
02:24:58 <elliott> catseye: be careful with that partitioner btw
02:25:01 <quintopia> i wonder if crowley considered himself a spelunker or a caver back then
02:25:05 <elliott> also, when your selection doesn't seem to be accepted
02:25:10 <elliott> and it just moves to the next-installer-thing
02:26:05 <elliott> if (islower (opt )) opt = toupper (opt );
02:27:09 * catseye goes off all pomp and circumstance like
02:27:12 -!- catseye has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.2.6).
02:31:47 <pikhq> All of a sudden it's cold.
02:31:51 <pikhq> It was hot but now it's cold.
02:33:18 <elliott> pikhq: All of a sudden I want to design a filesystem...
02:33:19 * SGeo sticks a thermometer in pikhq
02:33:44 <pikhq> elliott: But it would have files.
02:33:53 <pikhq> elliott: And be insufficiently awesome.
02:34:01 <SGeo> How about a moneysystem
02:34:03 <pikhq> Unless you make it sufficiently awesome?
02:34:03 <SGeo> So we have money
02:34:45 <elliott> pikhq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_File_System#History_and_evolution Read this and tell me it doesn't make you want to design a nice little FS.
02:35:34 <SGeo> No hierarchies!
02:36:03 -!- catseye has joined.
02:36:10 <catseye> Right, so, "it supports NetBSD"
02:36:46 <catseye> "Did you bring the chicken wire and calcium carbonate?" "No Karl, I thought YOU were going to bring the chicken wire and calcium carbonate!" "Doh!"
02:37:00 <elliott> catseye: Restate that more coherently.
02:37:19 <SGeo> No, it's coherent. It just needs context.
02:37:23 <catseye> It needs the name of the kernel to load. If you just select an ISO from your disk, it doesn't know that.
02:37:46 <catseye> So, I guess you need to know that, although, I don't know how it knows how to read FFSv1.
02:38:00 <catseye> Back to the docs in more closer examination time!
02:38:05 <elliott> It supports Linux better than that.
02:38:12 <elliott> catseye: Maybe the NetBSD download option does something fancy. How quickly did the iso download?
02:38:18 <catseye> Also continuing to DL 10.10
02:38:38 <catseye> The ISO was not too fast but not too bad. Like 10, 15 minutes?
02:39:24 <elliott> catseye: *groan*, the NetBSD option in unetbootin is 4.0.
02:39:25 <catseye> "supply your own Linux .iso file" that is maybe a hint
02:39:32 <elliott> catseye: yes, but it has bsds in the list of the things
02:39:54 <catseye> yes, i thought it would be general enough to do "if this ISO boots and can handle the fact it isn't a CD, it'll go
02:40:05 <elliott> catseye: wait, i have an idea.
02:40:16 <elliott> catseye: you know that partition of the usb stick?
02:40:34 <elliott> catseye: then dd if=netbsd.iso of=/dev/sdb bs=8k (assuming /dev/sdb is your usb drive)
02:40:42 <elliott> since it uses the floppy emulation stuff
02:41:06 <catseye> Oh jeez. Let me see if anyone has mentioned this
02:41:16 <elliott> catseye: Hey, you can always undo it.
02:41:26 <elliott> Just fdisk the stick, add a partition, mkfs.vfat; tada, back to normal.
02:42:00 <catseye> http://www.bsdnexus.com/NetBSD_onastick/install_guide.php if you're already running NetBSD, great. lemme translate
02:42:35 <elliott> catseye: *yes* no that won't work.
02:42:46 <catseye> Do you want to change our idea of what BIOS thinks?
02:42:51 <elliott> i'm not an idiot, that is the most likely thing to work from linux
02:42:52 <catseye> that alone makes me hate bsd all over again
02:43:02 <catseye> elliott: i don't doubt it will probably work
02:43:11 <elliott> press eject next to partition in gnome
02:43:14 <elliott> $ sudo dd if=netbsd.iso of=/dev/sdb bs=8k
02:43:20 <elliott> it'll take like three minutes
02:43:56 <elliott> catseye: make sure netbsd.iso is the actual name and make sure /dev/sdb is your usb stick
02:44:01 <elliott> (basically pick the highest /dev/sd*...)
02:44:09 <elliott> wiping your HD with a netbsd iso would be nasty
02:46:01 <elliott> sdb1 won't work in this case
02:46:13 <elliott> and you must eject the partition or NO WORKY am i yelling enough
02:47:06 <elliott> $ sudo dd if=NETBSD_ISO_NAME of=/dev/sdb bs=8k
02:47:26 <catseye> while transmission downloads 10.10 incase i can't get this to work
02:49:22 <catseye> what is threads? what is "caver"? BYE
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02:49:34 <pikhq> Aaagh. So, I've got this video I want to encode, right? It's hard telecined. But *strangely*.
02:50:53 <pikhq> Near as I can tell, it's got an atypical telecine pattern.
02:51:04 * pikhq starts single-stepping to see what's going on.
02:51:29 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
02:52:17 <elliott> pikhq: the main FPSes are 24, 25 and 29.97, right?
02:52:22 -!- catseye has joined.
02:52:41 * catseye <insert picture of post-explosion Wile E. Coyote here>
02:52:48 <elliott> catseye: did it even try and boot? :p
02:53:03 <catseye> I press F5 to boot from USB like usual, and am greeted by a shrill BEEEP through speakers.
02:53:13 <elliott> catseye: you know what? do you have a CD or DVD of any sort
02:53:21 <pikhq> elliott: 24, 24000/1001 25, 30000/1001, 30.
02:53:27 <catseye> Um I have a lot of blank DVDs that are useless t me
02:53:44 <elliott> catseye: Do you have a piece of equipment that can put bits onto discs?
02:53:53 <catseye> NO I DO NOT that is part of the motivation for this
02:54:06 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, wait, there's more, but those are digital only, so hey.
02:54:07 <catseye> This DVD/R is borked, at least under Ubuntu
02:54:12 <pikhq> elliott: NTSC-M is either 30000/1001 or (telecined) 24000/1001, system M is either 30 or (telecined) 24.
02:54:22 <catseye> I haven't tried butning a CD, but expect same result
02:54:29 <elliott> it's better than this crap!
02:54:37 <catseye> I've tried it like five times
02:55:04 <catseye> It always tells me "operation not supported" or some crap. But it has worked on this OS once in the past.
02:55:10 <pikhq> (digital TV standards, BTW, should support directly: 24, 24000/1001, 25, 30000/1001, 30, 50, 60.)
02:55:39 <catseye> I am going to 10.10 since ubutniknetboo understands linux. THEN I might try NetBSD.
02:56:11 <elliott> catseye: Hmm. If burning works on that Ubuntu, that will be good.
02:56:24 <elliott> catseye: btw the installer sucks for partitioning
02:56:26 <catseye> I can try it again, but my hopes are nil.
02:56:32 <elliott> catseye: choose to install updates when installing, and partition manually
02:56:37 <elliott> just put an ext4 partition in for /
02:56:43 <catseye> elliott: the 10.10 installer? ok
02:57:12 <catseye> have another hour before the 10.10 download completes
02:57:20 -!- augur has joined.
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02:57:42 <elliott> pikhq: I suggest that every analogue recording should have a test pattern for a second or so that hardware viewers skip past.
02:57:55 -!- augur has joined.
02:57:56 <elliott> pikhq: So that it can be seen how it differs from the original signal.
02:57:59 <catseye> because i... resuming an interrupted http download does never work
02:58:02 <elliott> catseye: add some web seeds
02:58:39 <catseye> keep in mind i have old retarded transmission w/o File menu
02:58:47 <elliott> oh it might even predate web seeds then
02:58:50 <pikhq> Okay, it seems to *mostly* be 2:3 pulldown, but *parts* of it seem to be doing 1:3 pulldown or 1:4 pulldown.
02:59:45 <catseye> how come other irc channels are never this cool?
03:00:43 <catseye> #scheme i'm guessing NOT on that list
03:00:45 <quintopia> you people are lame and would ruin my cool hangouts.
03:00:51 <elliott> catseye: "THEY'RE ALL PRIVATE HURR"
03:00:57 <elliott> we're cool because we have injokes
03:01:00 * pikhq sees how FUCKING CRAZY mplayer's divtc filter can be
03:01:09 <catseye> oh then they're totally yeah ok
03:01:10 <elliott> that is the true ~irc~ way
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03:03:21 <elliott> pikhq: try mplayer's pullup?
03:03:25 <elliott> it can do crazy things i think
03:03:42 <pikhq> elliott: Not crazy enough.
03:03:45 <catseye> djb should write a roguelike
03:04:01 -!- Akeelah has joined.
03:04:01 <Akeelah> [Global-announcement] Fuck you! This spam was brought to you by #freenode, remember, node freely!
03:04:02 -!- Akeelah has left (?).
03:05:00 <catseye> well whatever, spose i can't expect inteligence from that sort
03:05:30 <catseye> I still have no grasp of this "#freenode is spamming you" meme, though.
03:05:56 <elliott> catseye: because it makes people be stupid in #freenode
03:06:03 <elliott> and then they themselves go in and say "WHY FREENODE SPAMMING"
03:06:10 <elliott> basically it wastes staffer time in #freenode
03:06:11 <catseye> These people need to watch "Airplane" or maybe "Pee-Wee's Playhouse"
03:06:42 <elliott> "pee-wee's playhouse" has to be the most worrying title for anything ever
03:06:42 <catseye> Maybe level up their humorbone, if that's possible.
03:07:34 -!- augur has joined.
03:07:45 <catseye> It is pretty worrying. That Herman fellow was very strange, very strange indeed.
03:08:17 <elliott> My mental association for Herman is Herman Toothrot.
03:08:36 <elliott> http://media.photobucket.com/image/herman%20toothrot/ATMachine/mimisc/mi1amiga8.png
03:08:50 <elliott> he looks better in the pc version though.
03:08:54 <elliott> http://www.scummbar.com/images/dep/mi1characters/fullQ.gif
03:09:03 <SGeo> I guess it's funny for the spammer to watch/
03:09:57 <SGeo> Anyone want to help me label these somehow?
03:09:59 <SGeo> http://daychilde.com/midiguy/
03:11:49 <elliott> it is *impossible* to describe how little i want to help you label those
03:12:30 <SGeo> That means you must want to help a little. "Not at all" is perfectly describable
03:12:45 <elliott> SGeo: i want to help negative amounts
03:12:56 <pikhq> Seems the least awful way to do this is going to be following pullup with a deinterlacer.
03:13:07 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
03:13:14 <catseye> SGeo: whe... where did you get those and why do they need labelling
03:13:39 <SGeo> From BYOND, many years ago. It caches stuff, including MIDIs from games, and randomizes the names
03:13:52 <catseye> "takefive.mid" is probably Take Five (WILD GUESS)
03:14:05 <elliott> isn't that Lummox JR's stupid fucking piece of crap?
03:14:07 <SGeo> What's your guess for 87b672a2.mid
03:14:18 <catseye> OOoh, "zoot_suit_riot.mid"
03:14:25 <SGeo> elliott, it's LummoxJR's, yes
03:14:37 <elliott> the guy who hates linux because ... actually he never made a coherent argument
03:14:43 <catseye> let me see if i can play em
03:15:28 <elliott> catseye: i love how take five was written in ye olden days when 5/4 was CRAZY AND WILD
03:16:18 <catseye> SGeo: "Will You Be Mine in the Twilight of Unlambda"
03:16:49 <elliott> an esoteric album would be excellent
03:16:51 <catseye> i'm guessing ais523 left himself logged in
03:17:10 <elliott> no ais523 is probably awake
03:17:16 <elliott> his sleep schedule is worse than mine
03:19:01 <SGeo> Oh, the ones that don't need labels aren't from BYOND
03:19:10 <SGeo> Those are from AW mostly, a few from Worlds.com
03:19:43 <SGeo> If it looks like a bastardized URL, it's from AW. Doesn't have to be URLish to be from AW though
03:19:56 <SGeo> And zelda_mario I labelled myself
03:20:43 <quintopia> lol...take five isn't that old is it? dave brubeck is still around right?
03:22:11 <catseye> quintopia: It's older than Mandlebrot
03:23:10 <catseye> Brubeck is 90 this year, looks like
03:23:34 <SGeo> Some of the ones that look labeled need better labels
03:23:44 <SGeo> I'm certain lerf.mid is not the original name
03:23:47 <SGeo> Same with stheme
03:25:09 <SGeo> Dc4 is Light My Fire
03:25:15 <catseye> "When I Come Around" in MIDI is so... yeah
03:25:52 <SGeo> I don't think I've ever heard it not a MIDI
03:26:15 * coppro enjoys this assignment
03:26:21 <catseye> Not to push my musical tastes on you buy
03:26:31 <SGeo> Whenever I hear the real version of some of these songs, I just get giddy with joy
03:26:37 <ais523> catseye: if I'm online overnight, I'm nearly always awake
03:26:40 <SGeo> (The AW ones from the AWGate)
03:26:40 <ais523> but rarely paying attention
03:26:55 <catseye> If you were referring to "Light My Fire", then BUY ANY DOORS COMPILATION
03:26:59 <SGeo> when_i_come_around is one of them
03:27:09 <SGeo> catseye, I was referring to when_i_come_around
03:27:33 <elliott> <SGeo> Whenever I hear the real version of some of these songs, I just get giddy with joy ;; you're crazy :p
03:29:14 <catseye> Dear god you cannot half of these as midi is just preposterous MOST MUSIC IS NOT HELLO
03:29:45 <SGeo> catseye, try to be coherent?
03:29:51 <catseye> AHHHHHH Blondie's "RAPTURE" in MIDI
03:30:10 <catseye> Now, I am all for video-game music. So don't get me wrong.
03:30:19 <catseye> Most of what I write is video-game music.
03:30:21 <SGeo> That would be another AWGate song
03:30:28 <SGeo> I've never heard it outside of MIDI
03:30:28 <Gregor> "Some of my best friends are video-game music!"
03:30:34 <catseye> But that's the thing. If it was *written* as video-game music, it's alight.
03:31:06 <catseye> Well, there's a grey area, but the point is:
03:31:14 <catseye> EVERY TIME YOU TAKE AN ARBITRARY ROCK SONG AND PUT IT INTO MIDI, A MUSE DIES.
03:31:39 <catseye> A muse of something. Could be the muse of modern science fiction. WHo knows.
03:31:55 <elliott> I'd love to see some modern progressive in MIDI. That would just be... it... I would laugh.
03:33:08 <catseye> SGeo: My opinion of AW has now fallen from "undefined" to "AUUUGGGGH", based entirely on the music thing.
03:33:10 <elliott> Where dose one obtain midis these days?
03:33:21 <SGeo> catseye, they stopped
03:33:51 <catseye> At least these midis serve as source code, in a sense, if you wanted to cover them.
03:34:20 <coppro> elliott: When you make your Linux distro, will you make sure that true and false are each 45 bytes?
03:35:22 <catseye> SGeo: Here, get giddy with joy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCaU8LcwGTA
03:35:38 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ ls -lh /bin/true /bin/false
03:35:38 <elliott> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 23K 2010-06-11 08:24 /bin/false
03:35:38 <elliott> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 23K 2010-06-11 08:24 /bin/true
03:35:50 <SGeo> I like the MIDI version of Kiss from a Rose better than the real version
03:35:57 <elliott> true can be 0 bytes, obviously
03:36:00 <catseye> coppro: That is totally a zzo38 question.
03:36:07 <elliott> false can be 'exit 1\n' = 6 bytes
03:36:14 <coppro> elliott: not the source
03:36:30 <coppro> 23K is hardly a minimal implementation
03:36:33 <elliott> coppro: that was a binary.
03:36:47 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ chmod +x mytrue
03:36:47 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ ./mytrue; echo $?
03:36:59 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ echo 'exit 1' >myfalse
03:37:00 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ chmod +x myfalse
03:37:00 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ ./myfalse; echo $?
03:37:12 <elliott> coppro: they get interpreted as shell scripts, obviously
03:37:13 <SGeo> Language where the source for true and false is both 2 bytes
03:37:16 <elliott> you'd want a #!/bin/sh at the top really, but
03:37:30 <elliott> coppro: so why 45 bytes :p
03:37:33 <coppro> that's unportable though, isn't it?
03:37:33 <elliott> the smallest elf was 42 bytes
03:37:48 <coppro> if the default shell uses a different convention, particularly with the exit line
03:38:03 <coppro> also, 45 is the smallest elf
03:39:20 -!- augur has joined.
03:39:24 <coppro> or if there is some configuration that causes it to not work
03:40:42 <elliott> http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/teensy.html
03:40:56 <elliott> coppro: note: it doesn't work any more
03:40:59 <elliott> and it breaks every standard ever
03:41:15 <elliott> coppro: anyway, not linux.
03:42:22 <coppro> elliott: you've talked about making your distro among other things
03:44:15 <SGeo> I'm bringing a friend in here
03:44:21 <SGeo> He has questions that I don't know the answers to
03:44:51 <catseye> SGeo: we will totally poison his mind.
03:45:35 -!- SGeo has changed nick to Sgeo.
03:46:40 -!- hyper_cube has joined.
03:48:17 <elliott> hyper_cube: Learn to type English or go away.
03:48:19 <hyper_cube> how a program would communicate with some thing physical
03:48:21 <Sgeo> I'm not familiar with accessing arbitrary hardware
03:48:28 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
03:49:20 <hyper_cube> that should be your gold is to turn a light bulb off and on with writing code
03:50:28 <hyper_cube> i guess this what they call under ground
03:50:29 * Sgeo is utterly unfamiliar with that sort of hardware interaction, while most of the people here understand everything in their sleep
03:50:56 <Sgeo> Um, how exactly is the light bulb connected?
03:51:15 <elliott> oerjan: was that +o for me?
03:52:05 <catseye> there is a #usb channel; granted there are only two people in it.
03:52:17 <Sgeo> I.. don't know much about USB, and everyone else seems hostile, thought oerjan seems more hostile to the hostile person. I know nothng about USB :(
03:52:21 <Gregor> But it is the OFFICIAL channel of USB.
03:52:30 <Gregor> Just like we're the OFFICIAL channel of ... esoteric.
03:52:51 * oerjan doesn't know about hardware, alas
03:53:15 <catseye> otherwise not well defined.
03:53:19 <Sgeo> Esotericn generally refers to unusual. This channel is about esoteric programming languages.
03:53:23 <elliott> hyper_cube: this channel is about esoteric programming languages and related computing topics and the people who love them.
03:53:29 <elliott> are you one of these people?
03:53:40 <Sgeo> Languages that are interesting to thinnk about/work with/etc, but generally not practical
03:53:41 <Gregor> "confined to and understandable by only an enlightened inner circle"
03:53:50 <Sgeo> hyper_cube, not just one
03:53:59 <Sgeo> A variety, and it's often fun to make new ones
03:54:16 <Sgeo> Brainf*ck, for exampe
03:54:32 <elliott> there is a disturbing proliferation of people who have no interest in esoteric programming languages here
03:54:58 <Sgeo> elliott is ... smart, but caustic
03:55:10 <elliott> "you not quite there are u" -- i can't even attempt to parse a meaning from this. seriously. no joke.
03:55:56 <elliott> hyper_cube: i was in a mental institution for 6 months or so.
03:56:04 <elliott> bothered by them for anywhere between 11 months to two years. depending on your definition.
03:56:11 <elliott> the half-joke is manifestly not appreciated.
03:56:22 <elliott> hyper_cube: wow, go fuck yourself
03:56:42 <Sgeo> hyper_cube, um
03:56:50 <elliott> you're a moron and an asshole. this is great.
03:57:15 * Sgeo starts singing "Maybe, This Was a Bad Idea"
03:57:18 <Sgeo> Oooooooooh, no
03:57:31 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*4859958e@*.72.89.149.142.
03:57:58 <elliott> i think if i say that it was unexpected to me too, i'll be next
03:58:02 <catseye> a delightful divertimento for the evening, what?
03:58:06 <elliott> so i'll utilise the use-mention distinction in the above line
03:58:32 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
03:58:50 <Sgeo> Seriously, I know nothing about USB
03:58:50 * Gregor just feels confused :P
03:59:07 <Sgeo> And he's asking questions about USB, and I want to help
03:59:10 <Sgeo> And I'm utterly clueless
03:59:32 <elliott> So tell him you don't know?
03:59:40 <elliott> Although I am... not sure ... that would stop him ... yeah.
03:59:53 <Sgeo> Then I mentioned a place that I thought would know
04:00:50 <Sgeo> I need to write up some guidelines to give to people before bringing them here
04:01:04 <elliott> Sgeo: To be absolutely frank...
04:01:11 <elliott> I'm not sure he would have comprehended them.
04:01:14 <elliott> Or listened to them if he did.
04:01:18 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
04:01:22 -!- elliott has changed nick to Frank.
04:01:24 <Frank> Absolutely this dude.
04:01:26 -!- Frank has changed nick to elliott.
04:02:08 -!- catseye1 has joined.
04:02:27 <oerjan> i do wish elliott would have been more polite to a newbie until he _proved_ himself rude. i was tempted to kickban both.
04:02:52 <elliott> oerjan: i have enough experience with sgeo's friends. ok so the first "goodbye" was unwarranted
04:03:02 <elliott> <hyper_cube> u dont have any code idea
04:03:14 <elliott> "so u dont have any ideas for the usb interface code?"
04:03:34 <elliott> but...no, sorry, i just can't imagine anyone even vaguely worthwhile saying that line.
04:03:45 <elliott> feel free to kickban me, i'm collecting them
04:04:11 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that he might have assumed that I already described what he wanted before he came here
04:05:01 -!- catseye has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
04:05:12 -!- catseye1 has changed nick to catseye.
04:06:53 <catseye> well, on some level, it is sad that modern computers have such high-level interfaces to the outside world that you cannot start to use unless you buy some communicator package, or understand an overcomplicated spec
04:07:35 <catseye> on the other hand, so what
04:08:05 <catseye> if you want to control hardware, learn PIC
04:09:18 <catseye> lots of good books on microcontrollers, and the smell of solder is unbeatable!
04:09:38 <elliott> catseye: are you drunk or tired?
04:09:57 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Anyway, _I'm_ tired. Good night.).
04:10:01 <catseye> also, i miss the smell of solder
04:11:21 <catseye> yer just lucky i haven't waxed poetical about adventure games. OH 10.10 still has... a half hour??? bah.
04:11:55 <catseye> they had to make it the full 650M.
04:12:08 <catseye> couldn't stop at 250M like netbsd.
04:12:10 <elliott> catseye: kitten will be, like, 100 mb livecd. :p
04:12:32 * pikhq really needs to eat
04:12:54 <elliott> catseye: it'll basically just be the core + the default-ish configuration of programs constituting the "desktop environment" (or maybe just xfce :P) + a browser + the installer tool
04:13:03 <elliott> catseye: it doesn't have to include all the packages in the system, because they're installed from the network
04:13:09 <elliott> (which also means it always installs the latest version)
04:13:10 <Sgeo> Someday I'm going to introduce someone who won't be a trainwreck in this channel
04:13:20 <catseye> i think i used xfce once, after blackbox.
04:13:23 <elliott> so basically it just has to be the default graphical environment, a browser of some sort, and the installer.
04:13:39 <catseye> elliott: if only X wasn't an architectural nightmare.
04:14:03 <elliott> catseye: there's smallx/tinyx but that's not really... maintained at all and it's ancient
04:14:06 <elliott> but it was a proof of concept
04:14:11 <elliott> catseye: there's kdrive which i'll probably use by default
04:14:16 <elliott> catseye: which is now part of xorg, but:
04:14:21 <catseye> elliott: i tried to fork svgalib once, but it was already obsolete (my ostensible goal was to get it working on dfly, and to clean it up)
04:14:22 <elliott> catseye: basically every server has one set of drivers
04:14:33 <elliott> and has a generic keyboard/mouse drive
04:14:37 <elliott> and it's pretty damn small
04:14:42 <elliott> or you have Xfbdev, uses the framebuffer
04:14:48 <elliott> and then there's Xfoo for a handful of cards
04:14:54 <elliott> but not like nvidia or ati or intel or anything that needs full X.org
04:15:02 <elliott> but i'll probably ship xvesa as the default
04:15:07 <elliott> a lot of the bloat comes from libx11 though
04:15:09 <catseye> the X windows protocol reminds me of the optic nerve (er, what R.D. said about the optic nerve in... the blind watchmaker, i think)
04:15:27 <elliott> never seen "R.D." before :)
04:15:30 <catseye> "you'd never design it that way, but that's what evolved, so that's what we have
04:15:42 <catseye> (finding it hard to type :)
04:15:43 <elliott> catseye: but X11 was designed!
04:16:06 <elliott> catseye: on his livejournal stanislav posted that he was switching majors to biology
04:16:08 <Sgeo> Has anyone ever had anything good to say about X?
04:16:14 <elliott> because he could accept useless complexity from nature
04:16:25 <elliott> Sgeo: yes. they were all on crack at the time
04:16:35 <elliott> and they called it the X11 specification meeting
04:16:42 <Ilari> Is X11 so bad? Yes, most client implementations are bad...
04:16:51 <elliott> Ilari: As is the server architecture.
04:16:54 <elliott> As is the network protocol.
04:17:13 <Sgeo> What.. how does Windows work>
04:17:21 <elliott> Sgeo: It has the GUI in the kernel.
04:17:22 <Ilari> Most X11 clients synchronize way way too much.
04:17:37 <elliott> The kernel has window management functionality in a separate GUI module, and also GUI widget functions that draw inside these windows.
04:17:40 <elliott> It's all done at kernel level.
04:17:51 <elliott> This is also why Windows' GUI is -- well, was -- fast and responsive.
04:17:54 <elliott> Especially compared to X11.
04:17:56 -!- catseye1 has joined.
04:18:20 <Sgeo> That also means no choice
04:18:26 <Sgeo> No changing to a different window manager
04:18:35 <elliott> Sgeo: well there's windowblinds. ha!
04:18:51 <catseye1> I wonder why that keeps happening
04:19:33 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wusGIl3v044 dear GOD.
04:20:13 -!- catseye has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
04:20:21 <elliott> they're going to murder me.
04:20:51 -!- catseye1 has changed nick to catseye.
04:20:59 <Sgeo> http://www.theonion.com/articles/cyclist-friend-explains-necessity-of-35-socks,18259/
04:21:01 <catseye> my internet has decided to be ass tonight, it seems
04:21:40 <catseye> thankfully i am not AT work, at 10:21PM on a Saturday...
04:22:32 <Sgeo> Well, never know if any easily offended children snuck on here recently
04:22:41 <catseye> I am in the midwest. It is available, free, from metal boxes, on the street corners.
04:22:59 <elliott> Sgeo: then i hope they get offended
04:23:16 <elliott> catseye: the onion start with the title and write with the article, and by god does it show.
04:23:38 <elliott> "HOLY SHIT, MAN WALKS ON FUCKING MOON" was excellent though.
04:26:57 <elliott> catseye: anyway software sucks. isn't that something?
04:27:29 <catseye> I was going for something more Douglas-Adams-like, but that was... what came out.
04:28:51 -!- augur has joined.
04:29:27 <elliott> eh invites mrons to chanell and doesnt afraid of anything?
04:30:12 <elliott> catseye: explain why these aren't in C:
04:30:14 <elliott> #define ITEMS(a) (sizeof(a) / sizeof((a)[0]))
04:30:14 <elliott> #define FOREACH(i,a) for ((i) = 0; (i) < ITEMS(a); (i)++)
04:30:39 <elliott> quintopia: Seriously? You say how your channels that you won't tell us about are better then you call someone less elitist than us for inviting an abject moron?
04:30:59 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
04:31:17 <catseye> elliott: because you can #define them?
04:31:40 <elliott> catseye: you can #define an awful lot of stuff in C :P
04:31:51 <catseye> C is pretty cool, but not perfect. but imperfect in a way that is... dealable-with.
04:32:13 <quintopia> elliott: come on? i'm already here, and yep you summed up my position pretty accurately.
04:32:34 <elliott> quintopia: The hypocrisy is immense.
04:32:37 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
04:33:07 <elliott> "You're not cool enough for us" -- elitism; "He's less elitist than you guys, he invited an idiot who couldn't spell and insulted people rather than saying anything coherent" -- an insane level of anti-elitism
04:33:09 -!- augur has joined.
04:33:45 <quintopia> yeah, you mischaracterized it that time
04:34:03 <quintopia> the "not cool enough" should be "too assholish and argumentative"
04:35:24 <elliott> quintopia: did you even see the guy who came in?
04:35:49 <elliott> are you seriously saying we should have talked to him? despite the fact that he didn't say anything coherent or even vaguely on-topic and just came in because Sgeo had no idea what to do with him?
04:37:24 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
04:37:43 <SgeoN1> Shall I mention that I know him irl?
04:38:15 -!- hyper_cube has joined.
04:38:24 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
04:38:42 <elliott> hyper_cube: you were banned.
04:38:46 <elliott> you are circumventing a ban.
04:39:01 <elliott> ok. let me repeat this in words you can understand
04:39:04 <SgeoN1> Hyper, please don't get into this argument
04:39:04 <elliott> hyper_cube: fuck off you moron.
04:39:14 * catseye has not the number of faces nor the number of palms sufficient for this situation
04:39:20 <SgeoN1> Please, I'm begging you, don't insult the regulars
04:39:55 <SgeoN1> For what it's worth, elliott regularly runs circles around me mentally
04:40:11 <SgeoN1> Evading bans is not co sidered smart here
04:40:22 <catseye> FWIW, this is not about smart. This is about civil and sane. OK?
04:41:09 <coppro> evading bans is a sign of a) nonzero intelligence and b) zero social skill
04:41:20 <SgeoN1> Was hyper banned? Or just kicked?
04:41:23 <elliott> coppro: non-zero perhaps, but not non-infinitesimal
04:41:29 <pikhq> hyper_cube: You must be a moron.
04:41:33 <elliott> * oerjan sets ban on *!*4859958e@*.72.89.149.142
04:41:33 <elliott> * oerjan has kicked hyper_cube from #esoteric (hyper_cube)
04:41:41 <catseye> I mean there are certain minimum levels of smart involved in "civil", but you get the idea.
04:41:43 <elliott> pikhq: that has been proved to excess earlier.
04:41:56 <hyper_cube> thats wierd sgeo bye technology is here to be hornase and share do
04:42:08 -!- hyper_cube has quit (Client Quit).
04:42:09 <coppro> elliott: infinitesimals don't exist :(
04:42:10 <elliott> hyper_cube: can you hurry up with the going away thing?
04:42:11 <ais523> since when did dotted quads have four dots?
04:42:12 <elliott> also the never going back thing
04:42:33 <elliott> coppro: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-standard_analysis
04:42:46 <elliott> the way more beautiful expression of calculus etc :)
04:42:49 <Sgeo> *harnessed and *shared I think
04:43:03 <elliott> now taking bets on how long until he comes back
04:43:15 <Sgeo> For the record, I did not ask him to come back
04:43:16 <quintopia> yeah that guy is annoying. sgeo is not as annoying as that guy. how did you find a guy like that sgeo?
04:43:25 <pikhq> If you're evading a ban, you are *certainly* missing the point. If you want back in the channel, demonstrate to an op that you will behave. Otherwise, fuck off.
04:43:46 <elliott> pikhq: i've evaded bans here! admittedly the bans were ones i asked an op for after +o came and my insanity set in.
04:44:02 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, but that's different.
04:44:49 <coppro> I know a person who asked for a ban a very long time ago in a channel and it's enforced to this day. He attempts to join every now and then and gets kbed by the bot.
04:45:11 <elliott> coppro: has he asked an op to revoke it?
04:45:17 <elliott> if so, then i conclude that the ops are basically dicks.
04:45:25 <coppro> elliott: AFAIK he has not
04:45:41 <coppro> but no op has gone "oh that ban was dumb let's remove it"
04:45:48 <elliott> so hey coppro HOW IS MY MATHNEWS ARTICLE DOING IN THE PIPELINE
04:46:18 <catseye> was about to ask him how many vertices he had.
04:46:23 <elliott> [coppro has an epileptic fit and implodes]
04:46:28 <catseye> but, that's the wrong direction to go.
04:46:44 <elliott> took me a while to get that
04:47:45 <Gregor> Bleh. I made a new recording of Op. 10 but it didn't come out very well >_>
04:48:53 * pikhq hands Gregor a time machine so that there can *be* an Op. 0
04:49:31 <ais523> I know I once did something really stupid in a channel
04:49:35 <catseye> Gregor: music has been redefined as "any action". Start tossing pillowcasefuls of ball bearings onto construction sites plz
04:49:42 <ais523> said it was stupid enough to be kickbanned, asked for ops and they gave it to me
04:49:56 <ais523> (and I did actually kickban myself with them, but someone unbanned me soon after)
04:50:09 <elliott> ais523: whatdidyoudowhatdidyouDO
04:50:22 <ais523> set a puzzle for which the intended answer was incorrect
04:50:34 <elliott> since when is that kickban-worthy :P
04:50:44 <ais523> and as a result, missed it when people got the actually right answer
04:53:47 <pikhq> I am sick enough to make reading a book a hard task. God dammit.
04:54:03 <pikhq> My options are: waste time web browsing.
04:54:09 <pikhq> I do too much of that when I'm healthy!
04:54:27 <catseye> elliott: software sucks because two reasons. one it is intrinsically hard because of hating poblem ETC. two, people are jerkasses who don't care if they've done right.
04:54:39 <ais523> read the entirety of TV Tropes so you never have to waste time on it again
04:55:01 <pikhq> It's not just TV Tropes.
04:55:02 <Sgeo> Do IRC bans expire?
04:55:05 <pikhq> Though that's a major problem.
04:55:07 <ais523> I like the concept of a hating problem
04:55:12 <ais523> Sgeo: no, they have to be removed by an op
04:55:18 <ais523> or by services, but services don't unless they're told to
04:55:29 <ais523> some really large channels have an opbot whose main purpose is expiring bans
04:55:33 <elliott> catseye: so Robin, how long until it's implemented
04:55:48 <catseye> ais523: yeah, i liked the hating problem too.
04:56:29 <catseye> elliott: well, a long time probably, although you might have guessed, pixley + message passing + modules is what i'm now thinking about for a base language.
04:57:08 <elliott> catseye: you might want to take the route of "it's an OS with its own little simulated memory space and display but it's running in user space" thing. i find that a bit weird, but
04:57:12 <catseye> i mean, if Nock can be considered a decent core language (though it can't be, really, can it??), then...
04:57:21 <elliott> i guess it does let you prototype high-level OS ideas really easily
04:57:31 <elliott> catseye: well with Nock you have jets which are basically cheating, but :)
04:57:49 <ais523> catseye: sounds like a standard example in Ramsey theory
04:58:18 <catseye> well, once you are able to import symbols and send messages to and from processes which (to you) are just interfaces, you have what are effectively "jets" too, so...
04:58:43 <catseye> (that would be how i would handle that, anyway)
04:59:22 <elliott> <ais523> catseye: sounds like a standard example in Ramsey theory
04:59:29 <catseye> Tho to be *made* of fail is actually something of a feat, so yeah!
04:59:32 <Gregor> When the cord on my headphones is giving out, causing them to switch to mono left channel (AKA bass channel), the treble sucks!
04:59:44 <catseye> was just about to google Ramsey theory actually
05:00:11 <catseye> BUT WAS DISTRACTED BY GIMME SLOW PIZZA VIDEO AARGH
05:01:38 <elliott> ais523: what sounds like that
05:01:50 <elliott> catseye: ramsey theory gave us graham's number
05:02:33 <ais523> elliott: oh, you have six people, each pair either loves each other or hates each other
05:02:40 <ais523> prove that there's some set of three people that mutually love or mutually hate
05:02:43 <elliott> ais523: oh hating problem ok
05:02:48 <ais523> I think that is /the/ standard Ramsey theory example
05:04:34 <catseye> ok, i get that much, but yes, what sounds like this? an OS based on a sliver of scheme with some toys pasted in?
05:05:11 <catseye> toys = comminication mechanisms, really
05:05:33 <elliott> catseye: he never said anything looked liek that
05:05:40 <elliott> catseye: link me to robin again?
05:06:03 <catseye> "ais523 | catseye: sounds like a standard example in Ramsey theory" unclear what this is in reference to
05:06:10 <catseye> elliott: it's out of date! but i can try to find it again
05:06:20 <elliott> catseye: to "hating theory"
05:06:26 <elliott> I HAVE EXPLAINED THIS N TIMES
05:06:42 <catseye> hating theory, friends, strangers. OH KAY!
05:07:03 <ais523> catseye: you saying you liked the hating problem too
05:08:20 <catseye> elliott: http://catseye.tc/lab/robin/robin.html WAY out of date but there you go
05:08:53 <catseye> ais523: as a mathematician, what do you see as more fundamental: multiplication, or addition?
05:09:03 <elliott> multiplication makes more sense than addition!
05:09:15 <elliott> catseye: ais523 isn't exactly a mathematician, is he...
05:09:23 <Gregor> Multiplication is multiset addition over the multisets of prime factors.
05:09:27 <catseye> well i'm extracting his mathematician aspect
05:09:28 <elliott> ais523: you're doing electrical engineering right?
05:09:35 <ais523> elliott: computer science nowadays
05:09:37 <elliott> because you're crazy and masochistic
05:09:41 <elliott> ais523: oh you came over to the light side
05:09:44 <ais523> the electronic engineering is finished, I'm qualified in that now
05:10:02 <ais523> as a computer scientist, multiplication feels more fundamental
05:10:11 <ais523> it's much easier to implement in terms of Church numerals, for instance
05:10:23 <elliott> you have to decompose the number on the right
05:10:25 <elliott> and stack it on to the left
05:10:25 <ais523> (in fact, with Church numerals, even exponentiation is easier than addition)
05:10:28 <elliott> whereas multiplication is just...
05:10:34 <elliott> you don't feel like you're deconstructing them
05:10:42 <elliott> you're using the one on the right (or left, whatever) as a loop
05:10:47 <catseye> yeah, i'm on the side of multiplication too. even in an abstract setting. which is a little weird, since it can be defined with addition.
05:11:09 <elliott> whereas with addition... you basically have to phrase it as taking little Ses off a peano numeral and stacking them on to another
05:11:14 <Sgeo> VLC manages to put buttons in the taskbar preview thingy?
05:11:40 <elliott> catseye: so you've given up on ρ?
05:11:46 <catseye> plus, fundamental theory of arithmetic, and all. it's like there are two ways to get to any integer. but one is boring and the other is exciting.
05:12:09 <catseye> elliott: well, sort of. i mean, it has spun off a number of interesting sub-projects.
05:12:29 <elliott> "Like GRAVITY and EVILUTION."
05:12:40 <elliott> catseye: is stupidernestine still there?
05:12:54 <catseye> haven't thought about that in a while
05:13:09 <Sgeo> If a+b = ln [e^a * e^b], what's a?b = ln [e^a + e^b]
05:13:18 <Sgeo> How does ? behave?
05:13:41 <elliott> it behaves like ln(e^a + e^b)
05:13:59 <Sgeo> I think it's base dependent. The multuplication thing works just as well in other bases
05:14:04 <catseye> that would have taken me a while, but yes it behaves something like that
05:14:37 <Sgeo> You guys are no fun
05:15:05 <catseye> Sgeo: I don't think it's "clean"
05:15:36 <Sgeo> Any chance that addition is just repeated ?
05:16:14 <catseye> well, take a = 1 and b = 1
05:18:44 <elliott> 10?50 = 10 + log(1 + e^40)
05:19:11 <elliott> a?b = a + log(1 + e^(b-a))
05:19:43 <Sgeo> How would you get there from the defintion?
05:20:20 <Sgeo> Can we prove it?
05:20:37 <Sgeo> Or is this a weird true but unprovable thing?
05:20:40 <catseye> probably. properties of log?
05:20:41 <elliott> of course we can prove it.
05:20:49 <elliott> true but unprovable things are 345897589375x more complicated than this and rare.
05:21:06 <catseye> yes but "we" are easily distracted
05:21:38 <elliott> Sgeo: anyway uh, i can't think of a useful use for this operation
05:21:39 <Sgeo> ln(e^a + e^b) = ln(2e^a +e^b-e^a)
05:21:42 <elliott> but that isn't to say there isn't one
05:21:53 <Sgeo> I learned it as ln
05:22:01 <Sgeo> log is base 10
05:22:36 <elliott> ln is freaky engineering talk
05:23:06 <Sgeo> I wanted something "below" addition, so to speak
05:23:19 <elliott> coppro: i'd say ln is only common in the rubbish, software-engineering brand of CS.
05:23:19 <coppro> in CS, log is normally to base 2 because that's the one that matters
05:23:43 <coppro> elliott: well, it just so happens that log_e is not very useful in CS. But it would be called ln whenever that occurs
05:23:59 <coppro> elliott: the running time of mergesort is O(n * log n) etc.
05:24:15 <elliott> who needs log when you have kolgomorov complexity! (what?)
05:24:16 <Sgeo> But in O notation, the base is irrelevant
05:24:51 <coppro> Sgeo: true, but not for other bound notations, and by convention log is base 2 in those as well
05:25:33 * Sgeo doesn't know the other notations :(
05:27:47 <catseye> 2 is more "natural" than that 2.7 thing, in CS :0
05:28:36 * coppro is going to start referring to sinusoidal time on the basis that O(x) = O(sin x)
05:28:37 * Sgeo is glad humans live on timescales where basic computation doesn't take up our natural lives
05:28:46 <ais523> computers should use base e!
05:28:56 <Sgeo> How does O(x) = O(sin x)?
05:29:33 <pikhq> So... It varies between 1 and 0 time sinusoidally?
05:29:33 <catseye> i mean, they totally SHOULD
05:29:57 <pikhq> It can sometimes do time travel.
05:30:19 <coppro> big-O defines equivalence classes, which is cool
05:30:29 <coppro> as it so happens, sin x and x are in the same such class
05:30:38 <elliott> O(sin x), i approve of this
05:30:44 <Sgeo> How are they the same such class?
05:30:48 <elliott> make an algorithm with that complexity
05:31:07 <Sgeo> Finding an item in a linked list.
05:31:07 <coppro> Sgeo: it follows simply from the definition of big-O
05:31:19 <pikhq> Sgeo: Constant factors are irrelevant by definition.
05:31:23 <Sgeo> <coppro> as it so happens, sin x and x are in the same such class
05:31:37 <elliott> O(sin x) has certain connotations.
05:31:58 <coppro> yes, but math doesn't care
05:32:00 <coppro> that's why it's amusing
05:32:09 <pikhq> But big-O says you're wrong and that yo mamma so fat that she has O(x^x) complexity.
05:32:27 <coppro> (although actually the algorithmic notations were invented for things other than algorithms)
05:32:34 <elliott> O(n^934873489374983749347934)
05:32:39 <Sgeo> Does it make sense to talk about n complexity or sin n complexity, without the O?
05:33:14 <pikhq> Sgeo: It'll probably be considered a shorthand for big-O notation.
05:33:14 <coppro> the problem is it's ambiguous
05:33:23 <coppro> probably it will be assumed to be big-O
05:33:24 <pikhq> But, yeah, it's ambiguous.
05:33:26 <Sgeo> There. We want an algorithm with a complexity of the form a + b sin c*n
05:33:32 <coppro> but it could just as easily be big-Omega
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05:33:38 <catseye> You're getting into the area of "This program executed this many instructions on this architecture"
05:33:57 <pikhq> catseye: I want *that* to be sinusoidal.
05:34:02 <Sgeo> I thought I just abstracted that away!
05:36:36 <catseye> The only one there besides me is ChanServ'
05:37:59 <Sgeo> Your "besides me" implies something that happens to be false -- namely, your presense there
05:39:45 <catseye> Sgeo: my presence there was not false. and I don't see how "besides me" implies something false.
05:40:06 <Sgeo> Bleh, I guess at the time you said it you were there
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05:42:53 <catseye> wow, there is an ##electronics
05:43:26 <catseye> and it has a million jillion users
05:45:18 <catseye> Gregor knows about the bananas.
05:57:31 <coppro> Sgeo: I apologize, I made a typo earlier
05:57:47 <coppro> it is not x and sin x are not in the same big-O complexity class
05:57:50 <coppro> rather, sin x and 1 are
05:57:54 <coppro> which is what I meant all along
05:58:06 <catseye> time to test 10.10-on-a-usb-stick.
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06:06:06 <DrNinja> it totally works. i am booted into ubuntu 10.10 right now.
06:06:31 <DrNinja> so... i need to consider what to do next.
06:06:39 <DrNinja> oh, it thinks it's 5:06 AM.
06:06:53 <Gregor> AT&T Unix SysV bootable USB disk!
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06:08:18 <pikhq> 忍者医師？(ninnsìȳaisi?)[ninjaishi?]{Dr. Ninja?}
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06:13:15 <pikhq> I need more enclosing punctuation.
06:14:11 <pikhq> Hmm. On my keyboard, just (){}[]<>. Adding compose, I get... “”‘’‹›«», I think.
06:14:26 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to BenFranklin.
06:14:28 <Gregor> Don't have compose keys for Japanese quotes?
06:15:47 <pikhq> Hmm. IME... 「」【】『』〔〕〈〉＜＞《》（）｛｝
06:16:03 <pikhq> zzo38: IT COMES UP
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06:22:34 <SgeoMcSgeo> THERE WAS AN AXE COP/DR. MCNINJA CROSSOVER?
06:36:01 <zzo38> Do you know why Enhanced CWEB does not work on FreeBSD, apparently?
06:36:58 <zzo38> It does work fine on Windows and on Linux, but apparently it does not work on FreeBSD. I hope to correct this problem.
06:38:45 <zzo38> pikhq: Can you give the example why more enclosing punctuation is needed? Depending what you do, perhaps things like <|....|> or (|....|) can be used?
06:54:44 <ais523> zzo38: those sorts of punctuation are usable in perl 6 for user-defined sorts of parentheses
06:54:50 <ais523> to avoid clashes with the built in parentheses
06:54:55 <ais523> that is, () [] {} <> «»
06:55:26 <zzo38> ais523: Can you use other unicode enclosing punctuations?
06:55:40 <ais523> yes, they just don't have default meanings like those five do
06:55:45 <ais523> so you need to define them explicitly
06:56:09 <ais523> oh, there's also '' "" // but those aren't exactly enclosing
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13:18:47 <oerjan> * catseye has not the number of faces nor the number of palms sufficient for this situation
13:19:03 * oerjan pictures catseye looking like an indian god
13:23:03 <Vorpal> oerjan, what as the context?
13:23:38 <oerjan> the person i banned came back to gloat
13:26:43 <oerjan> fortunately he eventually listened to Sgeo, who knows him
13:39:06 <oerjan> 21:24:51 <coppro> Sgeo: true, but not for other bound notations, and by convention log is base 2 in those as well
13:39:09 <oerjan> 21:25:29 <coppro> such as little o
13:39:27 <oerjan> um the base is quite irrelevant for o as well. constant multiplier.
13:40:57 <oerjan> 21:30:19 <coppro> big-O defines equivalence classes, which is cool
13:40:57 <oerjan> 21:30:29 <coppro> as it so happens, sin x and x are in the same such class
13:41:43 <oerjan> only for limits at zero. not for complexity, which uses limits at infinity.
13:43:02 <oerjan> or, certainly not if it's to hold for all x, large and small
13:47:33 <oerjan> <coppro> rather, sin x and 1 are
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14:26:10 <elliott> wikilawyering at its best:
14:26:10 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion#Template:Two_other_uses
14:43:15 <elliott> "One Is Enough, a 2D platform game in which a communist ball needs to convert capitalist balls into fellow communist balls. More and more capitalist balls will be issued by the bank, creating new enemies."
14:44:51 <quintopia> speaking of 2D platform games, i played through a flash game called "The Tall Stump" last night. It was quite challenging.
14:48:58 <quintopia> apparently if you play all the way through without pausing, you can submit your time to the high score list
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14:49:29 <quintopia> and if you find all the hats, you can unlock the wearable clock, which deducts a minute if you finish wearing it
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15:08:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, which was the multicast daemon you recommended? was it mrd6 or some other?
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15:25:33 <fizzie> Yes, mrd6; I've heard of it, though not tried it out.
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15:42:19 <elliott> interesting kolgomorov complexity question:
15:42:41 <elliott> can a program that outputs (a program that outputs X) be smaller than the smallest program that outputs X?
15:43:43 <elliott> (language may vary but nothing tweaked specifically to make this true)
15:44:07 <elliott> obviously you could have a "zoop" instruction that outputs for(i=0;i<1000;i++){print("hi")}
15:49:26 <quintopia> for instance, if you are writing the program for the GoL UCC that replicates the same
15:49:56 <quintopia> the program that builds the program into the machine is necessarily much smaller than the machine itself by any reasonable definition
15:50:17 <elliott> quintopia: well kolgomorov complexity is not well-defined there.
15:50:28 <elliott> "smaller than the *smallest* program that outputs X" is important
15:50:48 <elliott> it's saying: K(X where run(X) = Y) < K(Y)
15:50:54 <elliott> which is an interesting property about the language
15:51:15 <quintopia> i was not offering a proof, just an intuition that leads me to believe it is possible
15:51:16 <elliott> of course, any X can be used there
15:51:18 <Vorpal> aaaaargh this makefile makes me want to headdesk. It uses @strip in the rule for linking the program. So that is why make CFLAGS='-g' did not work....
15:51:21 <elliott> even a super-long program that outputs Y
15:51:30 <Vorpal> and the @ is especially nasty
15:51:32 <elliott> as long as the program outputting X is smaller than the *smallest* program outputting Y
15:51:49 <elliott> Vorpal: makefiles should have DEBUG flags
15:51:55 <elliott> DEBUG=1 turns off optimisation, turns on -g and doesn't strip
15:52:30 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah and well, programs shouldn't strip at all when compiling them, only perhaps when installing them
15:52:43 <elliott> Vorpal: well. i like to think of installs as just a copy
15:52:45 <Vorpal> elliott, and it should never ever call strip and hide it from output with @
15:52:49 <elliott> i.e. if you can make it run from inside the build tree, it should work the same
15:52:56 <elliott> strpping on a non-debug compile is reasonable methinks
15:52:58 <elliott> Vorpal: but yeah the @ thing is evil
15:53:14 <elliott> which is quite common in makefiles
15:53:30 <Vorpal> elliott, it isn't even consistent in hiding calls to gcc and such
15:53:46 <Vorpal> elliott, sorry. I was wrong:
15:53:50 <Vorpal> CC:= @echo "[Compiling] $$@"; $(CC)
15:53:54 <Vorpal> that is so utterly stupid
15:54:14 <elliott> Vorpal: and assigning it to CC, wow.
15:54:25 <Vorpal> elliott, that only works thanks to :=
15:54:27 <elliott> what happened to "CC file"
15:54:33 <elliott> did we need to make it longer :P
15:54:41 <Vorpal> elliott, since otherwise CC would resolved at use
15:54:47 <Vorpal> := forces it to resolve it at assignment
15:55:13 <Vorpal> elliott, as a "side effect" := will also prevent make CC=clang or such from working
15:55:23 <Vorpal> elliott, since it is used in the override
15:55:52 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway clang doesn't work on that. It complains about unknown option -fshort-enums
15:55:58 <Vorpal> and well, you can't just ignore that option
15:56:16 <Vorpal> WARNS= -W -Wall -pedantic -Wshadow -Wpointer-arith -Wcast-align -Wwrite-strings -Waggregate-return -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes -Wmissing-declarations -Wredundant-decls -Wnested-externs -Winline -Wbad-function-cast -fshort-enums -fstrict-aliasing -fno-common -Wpacked -Wpadded
15:56:26 <Vorpal> it is ABI changing stuff too
15:56:51 <Ilari> Vorpal: What is this program with such WTF-class makefile?
15:56:52 <Vorpal> -fno-common? seriously
15:58:29 <Vorpal> Ilari, ecmh. A ipv6 MLDv1/v2 multicast routing daemon, which according to some googling is what sixxs recommends for POPs that can do multicast but aren't connected directly to m6bone, mrd6 apparently doesn't work very well there.
15:59:05 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't in general, and I think I'm going to give mrd6 a try and see if it can be made to work with it
15:59:27 <Vorpal> maybe whatever bug made it fail before is now fixed
16:00:13 <elliott> Vorpal: remind me to switch to Bogons sometime
16:00:33 <elliott> just wish they were cheaper!
16:00:45 <Vorpal> elliott, oh btw, where you here when I got ipsec tunneling to work?
16:01:07 <quintopia> elliott: let's say you have a program A that outputs "Hello World" and the listing of program B and program B outputs "Hello" and a listing of program A. Is there any reason to believe that the shortest programs that satisfy this description are the same length?
16:01:18 <Vorpal> elliott, ah, well, it is crazy under linux. You would expect most tunnels to use some sort of "pseudo interface" or such right?
16:02:01 <elliott> Vorpal: linux uses a daemon? a kernel module pretending to be a daemon?
16:02:15 <Ilari> Well, Linux has TUN and TAP interfaces...
16:03:22 <Vorpal> elliott, linux uses some strange routing policy rules and no pseudo interfaces for ipsec tunnels. If you use wireshark on eth0 (assuming that is where the tunnel comes in to you) it will show the packages twice: once as the encrypted package and then a second time as the decrypted one.
16:03:50 <Vorpal> note that for plain old transport mode wireshark just sees the encrypted packages
16:04:05 <Vorpal> (and of course, wireshark on a third host just sees encrypted for both cases)
16:05:17 <Vorpal> elliott, there is a route like "<other-endpoint's-ip-inside-tunnel> via <my normal standard gateway> metric 0 proto static". Thanks to the magic policy stuff this nonsense route somehow works
16:05:47 <Vorpal> so completely and utterly crazy
16:06:35 <Vorpal> elliott, oh and if you use the network manager vpn thingy on the client, you need to add that route by hand
16:06:41 <Vorpal> it didn't get added, it did for the server
16:07:15 <Vorpal> elliott, oh and talking to the rest of the lan is of course doomed unless you set up a route via the VPN server on each computer. I have to figure out how to do that.
16:07:40 <Vorpal> Ilari, the daemon adds/removes it as needed. Except that fails with network-manager
16:07:55 <elliott> it's the Elliott nmaps His Router time again!
16:07:57 <Vorpal> Ilari, since it neither adds nor removes it
16:08:03 <elliott> i refuse to let that proprietary piece of crap beat me
16:08:08 <Vorpal> elliott, is it one of those that likes to crash from that?
16:08:13 <elliott> Vorpal: it didn't last time! i think.
16:08:27 <elliott> Vorpal: I know that my previous router, the Orange Livebox, was hackable by:
16:08:32 <elliott> - Downloading a backup of the configuration
16:08:38 <elliott> - XORing all the bytes with a magic number
16:08:41 <elliott> - Unpacking it (it's a tar!)
16:08:44 <elliott> - Modifying the init script
16:08:58 <elliott> - Upload the "backed up configuration"
16:09:05 <elliott> *put - Re-pack as a tar above the XORing it the other way step
16:09:05 <Vorpal> elliott, when I nmap mine it often decides to introduce random malfuction in the wlan. Like refusing DHCP from some wlan clients, or sending bogus responses
16:09:12 <elliott> Vorpal: I got files on to the system but never got dropbear working.
16:09:21 <Vorpal> elliott, and that was nmaping from the ethernet side
16:09:38 <elliott> anyway this thing has a configuration backup/restore too
16:09:43 <elliott> so hopefully there's something i can do
16:09:50 <Ilari> Vorpal: Is that standard IPSec or some propiteriary VPN crap?
16:09:58 <Vorpal> elliott, last I remember it decided it wanted to send the completely wrong standard gateway info to any wlan nics from intel
16:10:13 <Vorpal> elliott, which is just an absurd failure mode
16:10:13 <elliott> Well hello there, what's this then?
16:10:27 <elliott> Oh, it looks like it exposes the http configuration interface to the web
16:10:38 <elliott> (You can configure what IP can access it though!)
16:11:01 <Vorpal> elliott, "to the web"?
16:11:09 <Vorpal> do you mean to the wan?
16:11:29 <elliott> password-protected and you can select that only one given IP can view it
16:11:30 <Vorpal> elliott, as opposed to "to the gopher"?
16:11:36 <elliott> Vorpal: ...it's an HTTP web interface.s
16:11:47 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I think "to the web" is weird :P
16:11:58 <Vorpal> elliott, do you mean "to non-LAN"?
16:12:45 <Vorpal> elliott, which is what I meant with "to the wan"
16:12:56 <elliott> "BRN E1" -- near the end of the backup file
16:13:24 <elliott> doesn't look like a shifted tar header or anything
16:13:46 <Vorpal> elliott, wan is the common technical term for external interface of a customer-premises router
16:14:27 * elliott wonders if nmap uses this by default
16:14:52 <Vorpal> elliott, why would it, it scans tcp normally
16:15:12 <Vorpal> just udp of course, how could it do both?
16:15:22 <elliott> by scanning tcp and then udp...?
16:15:27 <Vorpal> elliott, default is -sS if root, otherwise -sT
16:15:35 <Vorpal> elliott, well that would be two separate scans
16:15:52 <elliott> $ sudo nmap -v -A -sV 192.168.1.1
16:16:00 <Vorpal> -sV is badly named iirc
16:16:10 <Vorpal> since it isn't really a port scan in that sense
16:16:16 <Vorpal> it isn't used to detect open ports
16:16:17 <elliott> i just want as much info as i can get
16:16:22 <elliott> Vorpal: no, i did it to detect
16:16:23 <Vorpal> it is used to probe open ports to find what they are
16:16:40 <Vorpal> elliott, yes, but it shouldn't be -s<something> then
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16:16:49 <Vorpal> since all the other -s<something> are to detect open ports
16:17:01 <Vorpal> elliott, and OS scan is not -sO
16:17:14 <Vorpal> yeah, just illogical name of option name
16:17:25 <elliott> Scanning 4 services on SE572 (192.168.1.1)
16:17:36 <elliott> last time i tried this iirc it gave wild guesses that turned out to be totally wrong
16:17:43 <elliott> as to what the ports have on them
16:18:00 <Vorpal> elliott, also fun thing: it tries to detect IRC by faking a connection and then quitting, with the realname field "nmap wuz here"
16:18:25 <elliott> bet some servers try and autoban that :))
16:18:40 <elliott> Completed Service scan at 16:17, 119.42s elapsed (4 services on 1 host)
16:18:41 <elliott> Well you didn't freaking tell me what they are!
16:19:00 <elliott> do i have to wait until the end?
16:19:06 <elliott> "TCP/IP fingerprint:" fun fun
16:19:25 <elliott> 10000/tcp open snet-sensor-mgmt?
16:19:25 <elliott> what is tcpwrapped, anyway?
16:19:27 <Vorpal> elliott, I saw this yesterday when an oper managed to auto-zline himself when trying to scan our servers for open ports. It tried too many times to quickly and server added a zline for 15 minutes. I guess he will be more careful when doing the security testing next time ;)
16:19:45 <elliott> wait, how did it not identify 80 as http?
16:20:17 <elliott> ok :9000 is http. inexplicably.
16:20:24 <Vorpal> elliott, tcpwrapped... hm.... I very very much doubt that. Unless it runs linux
16:20:45 <elliott> Vorpal: they both seem to be http
16:20:57 <elliott> in fact :9000 seems to be a crazy-slow version of :80
16:20:57 <elliott> (or i trashed its network stack by probing it...)
16:21:17 <elliott> now port 10000, that sounds interesting.
16:21:18 <Vorpal> elliott, tcpwrapped is related to the hosts.deny/hosts.allow files
16:21:55 <Vorpal> stuff like denyhosts and fail2ban and similar auto-block-bruteforce-login-attempts use it for example
16:22:12 <Vorpal> well that is an iirc for fail2ban, I only used denyhosts personally
16:22:27 <elliott> fail2ban always fails to ban
16:22:49 <Vorpal> elliott, a strange name for the software I always thought
16:23:13 <Vorpal> hm fail2ban seems to do iptables updates too
16:23:41 <Ilari> Or maybe "tcpwrapped" is printed if connection opens but remote end resets it immediately afterwards?
16:23:46 <elliott> bogons.net's LLU plans have reasonable usage limits :<
16:23:53 <elliott> well ok you can get it without
16:23:56 <elliott> but it's £10 more a month!
16:24:19 <elliott> and the non-LLU plans cap out at 8 Mb/s
16:25:07 <Vorpal> elliott, some googling (not a reliable source but meh, the suggestion seems plausible): http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-security-4/how-does-nmap-determine-a-port-is-tcpwrapped-773983/
16:25:07 <elliott> Vorpal: lol apparently you're not allowed to run irc bots on sixxs, only humans can chat
16:25:19 <elliott> (although even that's grudgingly...)
16:26:10 <Ilari> The route gives other endpoints IP inside tunnel even if its different from the one tunnel goes to?
16:26:23 <elliott> cool, guy got banned from sixxs for saying on their forums that opennic now does ipv6
16:26:56 <elliott> Vorpal: have you used hurricane electric's tunnel broker?
16:27:53 <elliott> Vorpal: omg, i've lagged my connection to hell by nmapping
16:28:34 <elliott> Vorpal: question. why don't freenode offer cloaks with a bot?
16:28:35 <Vorpal> elliott, no CTCP PING reply?
16:31:22 <elliott> Vorpal: i just got your ping now
16:31:22 <elliott> TOTALLY RESTARTING ROUTER OK
16:32:51 <elliott> LOAD THE REBOOT PAGE FASTER
16:33:40 <Vorpal> + Ping reply from elliott: 191.75 second(s)
16:33:41 <Vorpal> + Ping reply from elliott: 180.60 second(s)
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16:39:41 <Ilari> Vorpal: According to docs I have found, Linux IPSEC system itself decides when to encapsulate and does not require normal IP routes (except normal connectivity to remote end of tunnel)...
16:40:01 <Vorpal> Ilari, yes but you needed those absurd routes to make the ip go anywhere
16:40:19 <Vorpal> Ilari, otherwise it wouldn't even get as far as the ipsec subsystem
16:40:49 <Ilari> Dunno about tunnel mode... Transport mode definitely doesn't have any weird routes.
16:40:57 <Vorpal> Ilari, indeed, transport mode is sane
16:41:12 <Vorpal> Ilari, but not very useful for my use case
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16:42:32 <Ilari> Vorpal: BTW: There's joke that IPSec has been sabotaged by NSA.
16:43:52 <Slereah> http://209.222.11.132/media/flash/d/discosquirrels.swf
16:44:54 <Vorpal> Ilari, well If I would need to keep something really secret I wouldn't use a system based on x.509 at all. I would go for openssh
16:47:45 <Ilari> I don't mean sabotage that made it insecure, but sabotage that made it difficult to use...
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16:48:12 <elliott> and it didn't start the lan
16:48:52 <elliott> Vorpal: ...apparently my router's certificate is for "bear" now
16:50:00 <elliott> "If you're thinking about getting a generic cloak, though, please consider instead making a donation to Peer-Directed Projects Center. PDPC is the not-for-profit entity which runs the network. If you donate, you'll get a nice cloak by way of acknowledgement and have the satisfaction of knowing that you've helped the network and PDPC continue to grow."
16:50:31 <elliott> Vorpal: they so do not offer cloaks via bot.
16:52:07 <Vorpal> elliott, I thought you meant *to* bot
16:52:45 <Vorpal> + Ping reply from elliott: 191.75 second(s)
16:52:45 <Vorpal> + Ping reply from elliott: 180.60 second(s)
16:53:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, important issue with mrd6: while the daemon and the controlling tool for it are documented, the actual daemon configuration file format is not
16:53:38 <elliott> -NickServ- Insufficient parameters for LANGUAGE.
16:53:38 <elliott> -NickServ- Valid languages are: en ru
16:54:33 <Vorpal> elliott, since over a year by now iirc
16:54:46 <elliott> ok. too bad i don't see a single reason to use ssl!
16:54:56 <Vorpal> elliott, why did you ask then
16:54:58 <elliott> it would totally encrypt all my publicly-logged conversations here
16:55:02 <elliott> Vorpal: i almost thought i did
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16:56:02 <Ilari> Just to annoy FRA&co? :-)
16:56:49 <elliott> <elliott> i just ask a staffer for a cloak, right?
16:56:58 <elliott> Vorpal: what is it with these crazy fuckers who don't use tab complete?
16:57:09 <elliott> i think i regret using this nick :D
16:59:16 <Vorpal> elliott, or they have irc clients that use caps maybe?
16:59:29 <elliott> unless their irc client also chops off the last letter.
17:00:36 <Vorpal> eeLLLLIIOOTTTT, yeah it looks strange with just one t
17:01:05 <Vorpal> elliott, also I thought you already had a cloak?
17:01:06 <elliott> "Hi Elliot!" "It's two Ts dammit!" "Oh, sorry! Hi Eliott!"
17:01:15 <elliott> TOTALLY NEW EXPERIENCE FOR ME YOU UNDERSTAND
17:01:24 <Vorpal> elliott, did you read the guidelines?
17:01:35 <Vorpal> elliott, you need to have elliott_ linked to your main nick in nickserv
17:01:47 <Vorpal> elliott, says their faq yes
17:01:47 <elliott> like no choice about it? iirc that was just a recommendation.
17:02:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I think it was more than a recommendation for getting cloaks
17:02:12 <Vorpal> or used to be at least
17:02:12 <elliott> Vorpal: well. i'll do it afterwards
17:02:19 <elliott> don't want to switch nick when a staffer's about and i've already asked
17:02:24 <elliott> let's hope they don't notice :p
17:04:04 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host).
17:04:04 -!- elliott has joined.
17:04:56 <elliott> Vorpal: i might add ghosting to my autoconnect :p
17:05:03 <elliott> ghost elliott, nick elliott, identify
17:05:11 <elliott> voila, no need for elliott_!
17:05:15 <elliott> Vorpal: although i have nick protection on
17:05:18 <elliott> so it's not like they'd last long anyway
17:05:43 <elliott> <lolcat93> mquin: I am 12. Will I get klined?
17:05:59 <elliott> Troll or bizarre? We report, you decide!
17:06:22 <elliott> Vorpal: QUICK should I work on leaden or botte
17:07:04 <Vorpal> elliott, uh, what was the difference?
17:07:27 <Vorpal> elliott, leaden. it will cause less disarray in this irc channel
17:07:56 <pikhq> elliott: Y'know what'd be nice? Enough hard drive space to make *remuxing* a DVD a practical archival method.
17:08:09 <elliott> Vorpal: but, but, FUN disarray!
17:08:26 <elliott> pikhq: dvd pfff dvd is for LOSERS
17:08:32 <Vorpal> elliott, well, do you want botte to be the first project coded inside leaden or not?
17:08:39 <pikhq> Vorpal: Taking the bitstream out of a DVD ISO and sticking it into, say, mkv.
17:08:44 <Vorpal> elliott, if not, then you can do botte first
17:09:01 <Vorpal> pikhq, so, how much space does that need?
17:09:07 <Vorpal> pikhq, surely just a few GB
17:09:15 <pikhq> Vorpal: 4 to 8 gigs per disc.
17:09:24 <elliott> Vorpal: do you think i'm crazy enough to trust my editor with my code?!
17:09:35 <elliott> <mquin> lolcat93: not unless we have cause to <lolcat93> mquin: Aren't I breaking freenode policy?
17:09:37 <pikhq> Vorpal: Which actually isn't *terrible*, but it's still a bit much for 720x480 video.
17:09:51 <elliott> REMUX BLURAY FUUUUUUUUUCK YEAH
17:10:06 <pikhq> Vorpal: Of course, you might get it smaller if there's a lot of extra content you don't care about.
17:10:10 <Vorpal> pikhq, only temporary I presume?
17:10:30 <pikhq> Vorpal: ... That's the permanent storage space of a remuxed DVD.
17:10:35 <Vorpal> elliott, um, otherwise what would the point be. Of course, I would only trust it once it seemes somewhat stable
17:10:36 <pikhq> Just like a normal DVD.
17:10:40 <elliott> <mquin> lolcat93: you don't appear to be <lolcat93> mquin: I allready stated I am 12! <lolcat93> 12 years old! <lolcat93> But I have to go visit my ex
17:10:47 <elliott> Vorpal: do you realise how crazy my ideas are? i'm not *stupid* :-D
17:11:08 <Vorpal> pikhq, is it more than the original dvd!?
17:11:11 <elliott> <Ramius> lolcat93: But you aren't registered <Ramius> You need to be registered to break the policy, ergo, you're not breaking it ;; <-- this guy must be a nomic player
17:11:28 <pikhq> But DVDs take a lot of space.
17:12:11 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm I think that you discovered the DRM of the future. Make the things so high-def that pirating them becomes impractical
17:12:24 <Vorpal> of course it fails because you could just make it somewhat less high-def
17:12:40 <elliott> Vorpal: *wow,* it's actually policy that you have to be 13 or over to register with nickserv
17:12:45 <elliott> but it's alright to use the network at any age
17:12:54 <elliott> since when is an email address personal information?
17:13:00 <elliott> also this stops people going into channels that require registration
17:14:15 <Ilari> Yeah, stupid "think of the children!" laws...
17:14:24 <elliott> Vorpal: :D "Shame they don’t allow auto-identification using client-side SSL certificates, like OFTC does."
17:14:59 <Ilari> Because that would be too complicated?
17:15:13 <pikhq> GAH THIS DVD IS SO RETARDEDLY ENCODED
17:15:19 <elliott> Freenode is basically OFTC's retarded cousin
17:15:22 <Vorpal> elliott, oftc fails in some other aspects
17:15:37 <Vorpal> elliott, such as #esoteric not being there
17:15:48 <elliott> Vorpal: that's just because of hysterical raisins though :)
17:15:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, how is it encoded then
17:15:58 <elliott> (OFTC only being a year old at the time, for instance)
17:16:12 <elliott> Vorpal: the true, original esoteric channel is #esoterica on EFNet
17:16:22 <elliott> lament was the one who told andreou to move it to #esoteric on freenode
17:16:23 <Vorpal> elliott, that sounds like the other type of esotericness
17:16:25 <elliott> so we're all using an imitation!
17:16:29 <elliott> #esoteric was taken or something iirc :)
17:16:39 <elliott> see the 2002 Q4 mailing list archives
17:16:53 <pikhq> Vorpal: It's a TV series collection. It has all the episodes in a single title, with 31 chapters.
17:16:59 <Vorpal> elliott, is there anything left in the old channel
17:17:05 <Vorpal> elliott, also: what about logs for it back then
17:17:11 <elliott> Vorpal: probably not. also, none.
17:17:19 <elliott> and probably lament came in... once
17:18:03 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
17:18:10 <elliott> Vorpal: Wanna try and FIGURE OUT HOW MY ROUTER ENCODES ITS KEY TO FREEDOM?!?!8375389E5W8347F
17:18:26 <Vorpal> elliott, is "8375389E5W8347F" the key?
17:18:33 <Vorpal> elliott, also key to freedom in what sense?
17:18:43 <elliott> Vorpal: the configuration backup file
17:18:49 <elliott> i.e. almost certainly a tar with terrible XOR-encryption
17:18:49 <Vorpal> elliott, what about it
17:19:12 <elliott> by unpacking, adding stuff, repacking, and using it as the configuration to restore
17:19:26 <Vorpal> elliott, from my router backing up the config gives you an ini file. Trying to load it back will almost certainly fuck up the router and require a hard reset and then doing all the settings manually
17:19:30 <Vorpal> so a very very bad backup
17:20:05 <Vorpal> elliott, also hm, it has an sshd?
17:20:43 <elliott> Vorpal: that's why i'll put one in the initscript
17:20:57 <elliott> Vorpal: i.e. in the initscript, i'll have it download dropbear and start it
17:21:03 <elliott> Vorpal: i'll put dropbear in /etc
17:21:08 <Vorpal> elliott, uh. chances of that working?
17:21:13 -!- Sgeo has joined.
17:21:17 <elliott> it worked for the livebox folks
17:21:26 <Vorpal> elliott, someone compiled dropbear for that arch?
17:21:35 <elliott> Vorpal: uhh, it'll just be mips or something.
17:21:48 <Vorpal> elliott, mine is probably not linux
17:21:53 <elliott> nmap doesn't identify the OS
17:21:56 <elliott> but routers do freaky shit anyway
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17:22:29 <Vorpal> elliott, I suspect mine is vxworks, not sure though
17:22:45 <elliott> >>> rs = [''.join(chr(ord(c)^r) for c in list(x)) for r in range(0,256)]
17:22:54 <elliott> this may take a little while
17:23:04 <Vorpal> elliott, what are you doing
17:23:06 <elliott> or KB, dunno what Gnome reports it as
17:23:09 <elliott> Vorpal: trying all possible XORs
17:23:19 <Vorpal> elliott, and looking for what?
17:23:21 <elliott> then e.g. i'll look at all the ones that contain the string "sh"
17:23:31 <Vorpal> elliott, it could be compressed
17:23:42 <elliott> the livebox was just a plain tar
17:23:46 <elliott> Vorpal: takes up space on the router
17:23:55 <elliott> it's not like it's being transferred over a slow network
17:24:00 <Vorpal> elliott, the xor routine takes up space too
17:24:12 <elliott> Vorpal: to stop people doing what i'm doing.
17:24:20 <elliott> also, xoring every byte in a string is like
17:24:23 <Vorpal> elliott, also it could use a multi-byte key
17:24:24 <elliott> 10 bytes of machine code :P
17:24:35 <elliott> anyway, shut up, this is just my first avenue of investigation
17:24:42 <Vorpal> elliott, google not helpful on it?
17:24:58 <elliott> >>> rs_ = filter(lambda y: 'sh' in y, rs)
17:25:18 <elliott> >>> rs_ = filter(lambda y: '/sh' in y, rs)
17:25:40 <elliott> '\xaa)\x1f*K\x19\x85u49\xee\x81\xbb\xef\\cV\x7f \xff0\x99\x82\\~'
17:25:45 <Vorpal> elliott, I know mine is near impossible to replace firmware on. Google has a lot on it. But it boils down to "while the firmware file is obfuscated with xor and such, there is one thing we can't get past, an 1024-bit RSA signature"
17:25:57 <Vorpal> elliott, mine is hackable with jtag though
17:26:03 <Vorpal> elliott, but that requires soldering
17:26:31 <Vorpal> elliott, well it is an ADSL modem
17:26:35 <Vorpal> elliott, not just a router
17:26:40 <elliott> Vorpal: linksys sell one of those too :P
17:26:47 <elliott> also you could disable all the settings and plug it into a good router
17:26:55 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm not sure how well my ISP would like not using one of theirs
17:27:05 <elliott> your isp probably has bigger issues :P
17:27:27 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but mine actually mostly do sane things, and it is not locked to that ISP. I could change to use a different ISP with it
17:28:21 <elliott> "XS4ALL teams up with Pirate Party International to launch ISPs in various countries"
17:28:23 <Vorpal> elliott, I have an ISP who *are actually working on implementing IPv6 for last-mile* and have *fully ipv6 supporting backbone since mid-2006*
17:28:37 <Vorpal> elliott, not as good as bogons or xs4all, but better than average
17:28:48 <elliott> Vorpal: right now i'm with Orange
17:28:50 <elliott> who are one of the big ones here
17:28:53 <elliott> and they're basically terrible.
17:29:10 <elliott> at least I get 800 KiB/s predictably
17:29:15 <elliott> <Scandinavia> Ha ha ha ha ha
17:29:17 <Vorpal> elliott, mine is one of the old ones. As in, the original one after it went "not just academical".
17:29:38 <Vorpal> well, original but it changed name
17:29:44 <Vorpal> still it uses the old name in some places
17:29:53 <Vorpal> even though it changed name in like 1995
17:29:59 <elliott> <Scandinavia> 800 KiB/s? Yeah, once all our cities were wiped out by nuclear bombs and we had to cope with 800 KiB/s for an hour.
17:30:10 <Vorpal> elliott, mail server was on old domain until last year!
17:30:18 <elliott> ISP mail! Yay! Who would ever use it?
17:30:31 <Vorpal> elliott, err, that was common back then
17:30:50 <Vorpal> elliott, and well, my dad had the same email since 1994 :P
17:30:57 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:31:32 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway there wasn't much choice to ISP email
17:31:41 <Vorpal> until, like, the past 5-7 years
17:32:39 <elliott> it sads me that gmail isn't quite all it could be
17:32:44 <elliott> i just want to run my own qmail
17:33:12 <elliott> do you recognise this header?
17:33:25 <Vorpal> elliott, err, not really
17:33:37 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah I was wondering why you didn't just use that
17:33:52 <Vorpal> elliott, also, did the xor take that long?
17:34:06 <elliott> well about 10 seconds. to do all 256 possible xors of a 110 KiB file.
17:34:08 <elliott> bear in mind this is python.
17:34:10 <Vorpal> elliott, xor is like, one of the fastest operations possible on a modern CPU
17:34:21 <elliott> Vorpal: it also converted from a one-byte string to a character
17:34:39 <Vorpal> elliott, why didn't you just use haskell?
17:35:00 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/Downloads$ file ~/sdff
17:35:00 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/Downloads$ file SE572_backup.bin
17:35:13 <Vorpal> elliott, generate all the variants as files
17:35:13 <elliott> the firmware upgrade may be a better route, but i see no way to test it
17:35:17 <elliott> other than dissecting a previous upgrade
17:35:51 <Vorpal> elliott, what is the brand/model?
17:36:06 <elliott> it appears to be Orange-specific.
17:36:13 <elliott> maybe another model rebranded for orange
17:36:46 <Vorpal> elliott, oh and I know someone who uses a cisco router at home. Because he had a spare one. It has the same CPU model as my desktop. (Sempron 3300+, 64-bit). And a CD-reader.
17:36:52 <Vorpal> I wish I had such a router
17:36:58 <Vorpal> would be power hungry I bet though
17:36:58 <elliott> /home/elliott/xyz219: Sendmail frozen configuration - version \332\254\274\016\362v\236\007O*\024]\241\351\006
17:37:10 <Vorpal> elliott, misdetection I suspect
17:37:21 <elliott> http://pastie.org/pastes/1227893/text?key=smb0pibj6th7rrkanurvg
17:37:27 <elliott> i like how it detects things as com
17:37:30 <elliott> like, everything is a valid com :P
17:37:32 <Vorpal> elliott, grep -v data is bad
17:37:38 <Vorpal> elliott, data could exist inside other ones
17:37:50 <elliott> /home/elliott/xyz254: DBase 3 data file
17:38:01 <elliott> /home/elliott/xyz126: DBase 3 data file with memo(s) (1554788450 records)
17:38:08 <elliott> lol at 1554788450 records though
17:38:14 <Vorpal> elliott, a lot of weird stuff is detected as "DBase 3 data file" in my experience
17:38:35 <Vorpal> elliott, what is "SysEx File"?
17:38:46 <elliott> Vorpal: MIDI stuff, I think
17:39:24 <Vorpal> elliott, hm "MIPSEL-BE Ucode"?
17:39:42 <Vorpal> elliott, you could try strings on all those files
17:39:50 <Vorpal> elliott, and look for plausible things
17:40:03 <Vorpal> elliott, it could be a custom format
17:40:14 <Vorpal> elliott, look for known strings, like the configured SSID or whatever
17:40:28 <elliott> i think i might have given up :D
17:40:32 <elliott> good idea for that ssid though
17:40:49 <Vorpal> elliott, try finding SSID in the original file too
17:40:54 <Vorpal> it could be un-encrypted
17:41:27 <elliott> Vorpal: i'll give you access if you want to try and mess it up for me >:p
17:41:38 <Vorpal> elliott, to the config or the router?
17:41:55 <elliott> router, that'd let you download the config too... although actually no, i don't trust you
17:42:05 <Vorpal> elliott, I might take a quick look at the config, I doubt I'm in position to hijack your wlan from here
17:42:55 <elliott> Vorpal: well i am not entirely sure it does not store my password unencrypted.
17:43:00 <Vorpal> unless you have a very very very very very very very good directed antenna aimed at Sweden (and assuming that the signals bounce against the ionosphere, which I doubt)
17:43:04 <elliott> i could change it and diff the two files
17:43:05 <Vorpal> elliott, grep for it ;P
17:43:15 <Vorpal> elliott, that would certainly be interesting
17:43:25 <Vorpal> elliott, also: back it up again without changing
17:43:28 <Vorpal> elliott, there might be timestamps
17:43:36 <Vorpal> so you need to look for that as well
17:44:18 <elliott> Binary files SE572_backup.bin and new differ
17:44:25 <elliott> is there a bdiff designed for human use?
17:44:28 <elliott> wait i can diff the hexdump
17:44:42 <Vorpal> elliott, diff <(od < foo) <(od < bar)
17:45:03 <elliott> Vorpal: there are a ... lot of changes.
17:45:10 <Vorpal> elliott, only after a certain point?
17:45:14 <elliott> Vorpal: sure, it has rebooted since then, and the password has changed, but, a lot of changes.
17:45:18 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/Router$ diff <(hexdump -C SE572_backup.bin) <(hexdump -C new) | wc -l
17:45:42 <elliott> oh, and the passwords were the same length
17:45:51 <Vorpal> elliott, are they all after some specific point?
17:46:07 <Vorpal> elliott, and after that point, nearly everything has changed?
17:46:23 <elliott> that means it's using actual encryption
17:46:27 <Vorpal> with IV chaining probably
17:46:38 <elliott> Vorpal: this is where i give up, yes?
17:47:07 <Vorpal> elliott, this is where you fetch the screwdriver and the soldering iron and the oscope!
17:47:20 <elliott> Vorpal: This is where I switch ISPs!
17:47:30 <Vorpal> elliott, remember to use digital probes, not analogue ones
17:47:44 <elliott> `addquote <Vorpal> elliott, remember to use digital probes, not analogue ones
17:47:49 <elliott> context is futile. uh, irrelevant.
17:48:06 <elliott> Vorpal: i'm going to fetch the hammer
17:48:09 <elliott> it's quite small, made of plastic
17:48:22 <Vorpal> elliott, look for jtag connectors on it
17:48:36 <Vorpal> elliott, a lot of things have jtag in fact
17:48:48 <Vorpal> elliott, probably just holes for the connectors though
17:48:57 <Vorpal> no need to put an actual contact there
17:49:17 <Vorpal> elliott, jtag. You know what it is right?
17:49:28 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, probably just holes for the connectors though
17:49:29 <elliott> <Vorpal> no need to put an actual contact there
17:49:52 <Vorpal> elliott, well, a lot of consumer crap crap stuff has jtag. Both for debugging faulty units and for debugging during development of the model.
17:50:16 <Vorpal> elliott, but they don't put the actual physical connectors in retail units
17:50:30 <Vorpal> elliott, there is just the holes in the PCB left where it would have gone
17:50:50 <elliott> Vorpal: maybe i'll just get a device capable of dispensing specific electrical shocks
17:50:50 <Vorpal> elliott, ST585 (which I have) is such a case
17:50:53 <elliott> and operate directly on the pcb
17:51:20 <elliott> "Okay... so if I cause this bit to flip...right...now! it'll corrupt the disk in the right way that if I..."
17:51:34 <Vorpal> elliott, I doubt it has a "disk"
17:51:43 <elliott> Vorpal: I CAN MODIFY ROM DAMMIT
17:51:49 <Vorpal> elliott, raw access to a flash controller is more likely
17:51:50 <elliott> it'll have some sort of flash storage
17:52:16 <Vorpal> elliott, it will be low level access to it. Not any sort of SATA or IDE interface to it
17:52:31 <elliott> wonder if anyone's written an fltk binding for scheme
17:53:11 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, if there aren't anything jtagish on there, you will have to resort to using a scope
17:53:19 <pikhq> You *might* be an obsessive freak about video quality when you go and grab DVD ISOs for the sole purpose of getting better encodes.
17:53:39 <pikhq> elliott: It's not ON Blu-ray!
17:53:53 <Vorpal> elliott, I wonder when we will get UV-ray
17:53:53 <elliott> <incog> i would like to report myself for multiple kline evasions :)
17:54:06 <pikhq> Nor has it ever been aired in higher than 480p!
17:54:25 <elliott> WATCH A DIFFERENT FILM INSTEAD
17:54:34 <Vorpal> wait, why is bluetooth called "bluetooth"
17:55:02 <pikhq> elliott: TV series.
17:55:03 <elliott> The word Bluetooth is an anglicised version of Danish/Swedish Blåtand, the epithet of the tenth-century king Harald I of Denmark and parts of Norway who united dissonant Danish tribes into a single kingdom. The implication is that Bluetooth does the same with communications protocols, uniting them into one universal standard.[2][3][4]
17:55:12 <Vorpal> oh harald blåtand, right
17:55:14 <elliott> pikhq: Which series? Also: WATCH A DIFFERENT SERIES
17:55:19 <pikhq> elliott: Invader Zim.
17:55:35 <pikhq> elliott: Nobody's gone out and refilmed the animation cells, sadly.
17:55:38 <elliott> I don't watch anything that hasn't been aired or released in 1080p.
17:56:03 <pikhq> elliott: So, Doctor Who came into existence this year?
17:56:24 <elliott> pikhq: Quite interesting in medias res beginning.
17:56:29 <Vorpal> elliott, what?! how can you accept 2160p!?
17:56:36 <elliott> pikhq: I mean, this Doctor -- who is he? Where is he from? What is he doing?
17:56:45 <Vorpal> elliott, that's absurdly bad quality!
17:56:46 <elliott> I think it might be a psychological thriller.
17:56:50 <Vorpal> elliott, 4000p at least
17:56:53 <pikhq> elliott: And how's he the eleventh?
17:57:02 <elliott> pikhq: I think we are up for a FUCKTON of flashbacks.
17:57:16 <elliott> Vorpal: I only watch continuous video frames.
17:57:33 <elliott> Vorpal: That is, the frame is a function from [0,1] to [0,1]^3 (RGB).
17:57:35 <pikhq> elliott: They might air it in 576i for a retro feel, though.
17:57:39 <pikhq> elliott: And wouldn't that be awful?
17:57:45 <elliott> pikhq: Not if it's INTENTIONAL
17:57:58 <elliott> Vorpal: Although RGB is a bit insufficient.
17:58:01 <Vorpal> elliott, oh? So you are keeping your eyes closed all the time then? (quantum... discrete!)
17:58:04 <elliott> Vorpal: BUT I'LL JUST HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT
17:58:08 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, oh? So you are keeping your eyes closed all the time then? (quantum... discrete!)
17:58:13 <Vorpal> elliott, oh, not in time
17:58:36 <Vorpal> elliott, I only watch continuous *in time*
17:59:19 <elliott> Vorpal: In conclusion, I watch ([0,1]^3)^(R * [0,1]^2).
17:59:47 <Vorpal> elliott, but since the real world isn't continuous in time... Lets just say it explains why I don't have a lot of scrollback, it would need a huge braille terminal!
18:00:39 <Vorpal> elliott, I only watch those that have only imaginary colours
18:00:47 <elliott> Vorpal: Ah yes, like the Discworld movies.
18:00:54 <elliott> My display reproduces octarine perfectly.
18:01:28 <Vorpal> elliott, and lets not just get started on my audio requirements!
18:02:16 <elliott> Vorpal: I hope you don't use a silly notion of bits and kHz.
18:02:24 <elliott> You seem like the kind of man who would use [0,1]^R.
18:02:39 <elliott> A continuous signal of infinite bits!
18:05:33 <Vorpal> elliott, perfect binaural of course
18:08:03 * Sgeo leaves the hot water in the sink running for 7min
18:08:22 <Sgeo> To be sure that it will stay hot
18:08:31 <Sgeo> The house is breaking down
18:08:45 <Sgeo> If it stays hot, maybe I can take a shower in my house!
18:08:52 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
18:08:59 <Sgeo> (not from the sink water)
18:10:15 <elliott> Vorpal: "It's useful, but not required, to have an alternate nick grouped to your account. For example, if your primary nick is foo:
18:10:16 -!- elliott has changed nick to foo_.
18:10:20 -!- foo_ has changed nick to elliott.
18:10:27 <elliott> you can imagine the next line
18:11:29 <Sgeo> They actually said "whoops :D"?
18:17:25 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
18:20:18 <asiekierka> only so i can get Windows for Workgroups 3.11 run from an USB thumbdrive
18:20:26 <asiekierka> and 386 Win3x support requires a special kernel compile
18:20:55 <pikhq> That's a bit bizarre. :)
18:23:40 <elliott> pikhq: "We will probably, but not definitely, end up working in Java." -- Eliezer Yudkowsky, ages ago, on the Seed AI project, making present Eliezer Yudkowsky very embarrassed indeed
18:24:06 <pikhq> How incredibly embarassing.
18:24:30 <elliott> I think that's the first time I've ever seen you typo.
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18:25:02 <elliott> pikhq: I'm just lovin' the thought that a standard-ish computer could be expected to run *Java* code fast enough to... to anything.
18:25:21 <pikhq> elliott: I typo somewhat often, IMO.
18:26:06 <pikhq> I'm going to guess you get the impression that I never typo simply because I actually try to spell things right (like most programmers). :P
18:26:26 <elliott> pikhq: I just never see you use anything other than perfect English. Thinkos, yes, but not typos.
18:26:41 <elliott> I try and spell correctly but grammar I am much less concerned about :p
18:27:02 <elliott> grammar i get right, i just tend to omit... punctuation
18:27:07 <pikhq> I do mistype things fairly often.
18:27:20 <pikhq> And spelling, eh, I sometimes forget. Maybe once or twice a day.
18:29:30 <pikhq> It's very very annoying to try and get things set up to be easily encodable when you're having to dump the VOB stream for episodes FROM THE FREAKING CHAPTERS of a single title.
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18:30:04 <elliott> pikhq: dd bs=[whatever] if=/dev/cdrom of=movie.iso
18:30:21 <pikhq> elliott: See, I've got the ISOs already.
18:30:31 <pikhq> elliott: I want them in h264'd mkvs.
18:30:47 <pikhq> mplayer dvd://chapter/path-to-iso.iso
18:31:13 <elliott> pikhq: just keep it like that then :D
18:31:26 <pikhq> It works just fine, but it's kinda annoying. Especially when you're going to need to do some processing to make the video not suck.
18:32:02 <pikhq> (invert the 2:3 pulldown, deinterlace the random chunks of not 2:3 pulldown... Ugh.)
18:32:21 <pikhq> Oh, and probably completely omit the Spanish audio track.
18:32:32 <elliott> pikhq: why not just pirate it from the start?
18:32:36 <elliott> ais523: have you had any esolang ideas recently?
18:32:38 <pikhq> elliott: I pirated the ISOs.
18:32:59 <pikhq> Because all the other encodes had INSUFFICIENT AUDIO QUALITY
18:33:10 <ais523> you lose track after a while
18:33:33 <ais523> I've been spending more time recently trying (and failing) to exploit a buffer overflow in NetHack
18:33:35 <pikhq> Most encodes are going to have sane audio quality; you're generally going to just copy the AC3 stream.
18:33:50 <elliott> ais523: Vorpal saw you on NAO, I think
18:33:51 <ais523> because a stupid full stop keeps getting in the way
18:33:53 <elliott> killing yourself repeatedly?
18:33:59 <ais523> elliott: no, wouldn't have been me
18:34:09 <elliott> ais523: he said you wrote the bot though; probably he just meant TAEB
18:34:10 <pikhq> (192kbps for stereo AC3? What's the *point* in transcoding it?)
18:34:22 <ais523> well, I haven't run TAEB523 recently either
18:34:33 <elliott> ais523: Vorpal probably grossly overestimates how much of TAEB you wrote
18:34:42 <elliott> ais523: it was killing itself repeatedly on dlvl 1 by kicking a wand of wishing, apparently
18:34:57 <Vorpal> elliott, I know he wrote one of those AIs only
18:35:09 <ais523> that was a) only three kills, and b) years ago
18:35:15 <elliott> ais523: no, it was days ago
18:35:23 <Vorpal> <elliott> killing yourself repeatedly? <-- deathrobin?
18:35:30 <ais523> Vorpal: has someone been doing wowdeath again?
18:35:31 <elliott> Vorpal: you said a few days ago
18:35:36 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, I've also got this thing about retaining things like audio commentary; most people don't.
18:35:37 <Vorpal> ais523, not that I know of
18:35:39 <elliott> kicking a wand of wishing repeatedly
18:35:42 <elliott> ... yes you did, you said it
18:35:45 <Vorpal> ais523, I haven't connected to nao for weeks
18:35:54 <ais523> elliott: I think it's just a timescale confusion, somehow
18:36:00 <Vorpal> elliott, you are mixing me up with someone else
18:36:01 <elliott> 22:36:03 <pikhq> Someone reverse engineered Nethack's PRNG... And then logged onto a public server, killed himself on the first level by kicking a wand of wishing, three times a day.
18:36:06 <ais523> (I was surprised, because the bug wowdeath exploited was fixed)
18:36:09 <elliott> 22:36:25 <Gregor> pikhq: Uhhhhh
18:36:09 <elliott> 22:36:33 <pikhq> http://alt.org/nethack/player-all.php?player=WowDeath Yes.
18:36:09 <elliott> 22:36:46 <pikhq> Gregor: He could have done a bunch of ascensions, but that's funnier.
18:36:09 <elliott> 22:38:47 <pikhq> Oh, whaddya know. ais523 developed the bot that does that.
18:36:15 <ais523> (and later, the bug Adeon exploited was fixed too)
18:36:25 <elliott> i don't know where he got your name from though
18:36:55 <elliott> "On the WowDeath account, I killed myself by kicking wands of wishing on the first level — three times in one day." --sartak, TAEB blog
18:37:07 <elliott> pikhq: did you think ais523 wrote all the TAEB code or something? :p
18:37:08 <pikhq> It was linked to from the TAEB blog, which listed ais523 as one of the developers.
18:37:11 <ais523> elliott: I wrote one of the AIs for TAEB; Sartak, who owned WoWdeath, was the original author for TAEB
18:37:26 <elliott> ais523 had no part in it actually :P
18:37:30 <pikhq> elliott: No, I just misphrased it. I should have said something like "ais523 was *a* developer for the bot that does that."
18:37:36 <elliott> pikhq: TAEB didn't do it, though.
18:37:40 <ais523> pikhq: I /am/ one of the developers for TAEB, but TAEB wasn't involved in the RNG exploit
18:37:44 <elliott> It was another bot by someone else who happens to develop TAEB.
18:37:48 <pikhq> Oh, I misinterpreted.
18:37:48 <elliott> (Well, was the original developer of. But.)
18:37:54 <Vorpal> I played deathrobin once for the fun of it. I got a new one iirc. IIRC I was first with something along the lines of "dying from jumping out of beartrap while punished and hallucinating"
18:37:58 <ais523> Sartak's been missing for a while
18:38:03 <Vorpal> most saner ones were already done
18:38:08 <elliott> ais523: literally missing?
18:38:19 <ais523> elliott: hasn't turned up in #nethack or #interhack
18:38:39 <ais523> I'm not sure offhand; probably around a year
18:38:57 <elliott> ais523: that's very worrying
18:39:07 <ais523> elliott: we think he just moved on to other projects
18:39:13 <elliott> hmm, he works for best practical
18:39:22 <elliott> so you'd probably hear if he died or something
18:39:31 <ais523> and his twitter account's still being used, that's a quick way to check
18:39:39 <elliott> ais523: ah, he's committed to github recently
18:39:42 <elliott> to the bestpractical account
18:40:14 <ais523> yep, I doubt he's vanished off the face of the Earth
18:40:18 <ais523> just from the NetHack community
18:40:30 <pikhq> Alright, got the vob streams dumped.
18:41:34 <pikhq> Now to experiment with how best to get the video to not suck
18:41:45 <ais523> elliott: it's kind-of annoying, because he owns the machine on which my TAEB repo is hosted
18:41:56 <ais523> and although the machine still works, my SSH key doesn't, and the account doesn't have a password
18:41:59 <elliott> ais523: btw, i'm about to give you a flashback
18:42:29 <elliott> did your vision go greyscale? did events repeat?! did they:?!?!?!
18:43:10 <ais523> elliott: my vision goes greyscale whenever there's insufficient light for my cones to function correctly
18:43:35 <ais523> (which doesn't happen all that often, given the amount of light in the modern-day world even at night)
18:43:35 <elliott> ais523: wow, you approached zzo38 a bit there
18:43:56 <elliott> ais523: zzo38, btw, is now planning to make his own implementation of *TeX*
18:44:01 <elliott> to include in his linux distribution
18:44:03 <ais523> elliott: heh, most people can be like that; it's just zzo38 who does it as a way of life
18:44:26 <ais523> elliott: you just have to wait for him to reimplement the rest of the userland and the kernel too
18:44:28 <elliott> gotta meet him IRL before i die.
18:44:30 <ais523> and then we'll have a new free OS
18:45:26 <elliott> Vorpal: invented TAEB, did wowdeath
18:45:43 <elliott> chronology of the first two may be backwards
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18:46:55 <Vorpal> elliott, sure about the chronology of the third?
18:47:14 <elliott> as ais523 has said, he's not in nethack channels any more.
18:47:39 <Vorpal> elliott, well, then I guess there is a chance time travel was not involved
18:47:43 <ais523> wow, this conversation has degenerated into pointlessness pretty rapidly
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18:48:41 <Vorpal> ais523, you slept too well then (not tired enough to think rather silly and not really funny things are funny)
18:48:52 <ais523> Vorpal: I'm rarely /that/ tired
18:49:38 <ais523> although your observation then explains a lot
18:49:41 <Vorpal> ais523, oh. Happens to be on regular basis. I guess the individual tiredness threshold differs
18:49:43 <ais523> especially if s/tired/drunk/
18:49:50 <Vorpal> ais523, I'm a teetotaller
18:50:05 <elliott> ais523: he just gets drunk on boring
18:50:10 <ais523> (um, that's a semantic s///, not a textual substitution one)
18:50:12 <elliott> his boring accumulates over the course of a day
18:50:19 <elliott> leading tot he observed effects
18:50:21 <ais523> elliott: I'm a teetotaller too, but am still capable of getting effectively drunk
18:50:37 <Vorpal> elliott, you promised to never be mean to me, remember?
18:50:39 <ais523> or occasionally just on vapour
18:50:50 <elliott> Vorpal: only when GreaseMonkey was around
18:51:17 <Vorpal> elliott, retroactively adding clauses is cheating
18:51:54 <ais523> where does that myth come from, fiction?
18:52:05 <Vorpal> ais523, I was just thinking of asking the same thing
18:52:07 <elliott> ais523: what, crossing fingers?
18:52:18 <ais523> elliott: for the purpose of making a signature invalid?
18:52:29 <Vorpal> ais523, how does it make sense?
18:52:31 <elliott> crossing fingers for luck, don't know
18:52:42 <elliott> Vorpal: it makes about as much sense as cooties
18:53:00 <ais523> come to think of it, if there was proof that a) you did cross your fingers while signing, and b) the other person should have interpreted it as a sign that you weren't really agreeing to the contract or whatever
18:53:06 <ais523> then the contract probably isn't correctly agreed
18:53:27 <Vorpal> oh yeah that makes no sense
18:53:33 <elliott> (but the other party can look first, so you have to e.g. cross your toes)
18:54:02 <Vorpal> elliott, is crossing toes valid?
18:54:03 <ais523> playground law is famous for a) making no sense at all, and b) being inconsistent from person to person
18:54:06 <ais523> it leads to really bizarre arguments
18:54:17 <elliott> Vorpal: well. probably. but people will hate you
18:54:46 <elliott> ais523: clearly, we need playground judges
18:55:01 <Vorpal> ais523, btw, do you know how insane the linux ipsec tunnel implementation is?
18:55:21 <ais523> I'm guessing from the fact you asked the question that it's insane, though
18:55:29 <Vorpal> ais523, would you expect it to use some of pseudo-interface, such as a tun interface?
18:55:46 <ais523> Vorpal: I wouldn't really expect anything, due to caring insufficiently about the details
18:56:38 <pikhq> Seems that the pullup filter does wonderful, wonderful things to this video.
18:57:00 <pikhq> Namely, it gets out sane, 24fps video.
18:57:28 <Vorpal> ais523, well, it doesn't use one. Instead it uses some kind of ipsec policy and weird route. Weird route like: "<ip of other endpoint in tunnel> via <your normal standard gateway> metric 0 proto static" (otherwise the packet wouldn't get far enough to be redirected to the tunnel).
18:57:56 <ais523> hmm, sometimes the only difference between Vorpal and zzo38 is that Vorpal gives you the context
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18:58:00 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure which way I like better
18:58:08 <Vorpal> ais523, and doing wireshark at either tunnel end point makes the packages show up twice, once as encrypted and once as decrypted (I verified with a third computer that was not actually sent over the wire)
18:58:42 <elliott> ais523: <Vorpal> ais523, well, it doesn't use one. Instead it uses some kind of ipsec policy and weird route. Weird route like: "<ip of other endpoint in tunnel> via <your normal standard gateway> metric 0 proto static" (otherwise the packet wouldn't get far enough to be redirected to the tunnel).
18:58:42 <Vorpal> ais523, is that bad or good?
18:58:45 <elliott> ais523: is pretty close to a zzo line...
18:59:07 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't use *quite* as awkward grammar.
18:59:17 <Vorpal> elliott, and he is in here you know
18:59:22 <ais523> Vorpal: I wasn't thinking about the grammar at all
18:59:47 <Vorpal> elliott, "if you rephrased what you just said, you could make it sound like someone else, but you don't need to do that, if you don't want to, that is"
19:00:13 <elliott> Vorpal: you are completely missing the non-grammatical aspects of zzo's personality...
19:00:16 <ais523> still, one of the joys about IRC and/or Usenet is that you can basically talk about anything
19:00:23 <pikhq> Aaaaw, not *quite*.
19:00:27 <elliott> ais523: usenet -- as long as it's spam
19:00:27 <ais523> and one of the other joys is that you don't necessarily have to listen
19:00:30 <Vorpal> elliott, well I know about them too, but they don't stand out quite as much as the grammatical ones
19:00:55 <Vorpal> elliott, that sounded very much like someone else.
19:01:02 <Vorpal> elliott, someone from xkcd I think
19:01:12 <ais523> elliott: mentally filtering out Usenet spam isn't too hard, around as hard as mentally filtering out email spam
19:01:20 <elliott> ais523: do you have a spam filter?
19:01:25 <ais523> slightly harder than mentally filtering out adverts
19:01:42 <ais523> elliott: for email, there are two competing spam filters checking my email, neither of which is under my control
19:01:54 <Vorpal> I have yet to come across a good usenet spamfilter. I guess no one really cares about writing one
19:02:14 <ais523> and I assume the yahoo account is also spam-filtered, although perhaps not (the "spam" folder rarely gets anything, and when it does it's generally a legit email)
19:02:44 <ais523> Vorpal: apparently, most Usenet servers other than Google Groups are pretty good at filtering it
19:02:51 <elliott> has anyone used a BSD in a VM?
19:03:02 <ais523> elliott: it would be implausible if they hadn't
19:03:05 <quintopia> ais523: the primary joy of irc is that you can talk about nothing
19:03:18 <Vorpal> ais523, yes, the one I use drastically lowered spam amount about half a year ago
19:03:27 <Vorpal> ais523, but there are no good client-integrated ones
19:03:30 <ais523> (I'm assuming that second nickping was a joke, rather than a mistake?)
19:03:32 <Vorpal> as there are in many email clients
19:03:51 <Vorpal> <elliott> has anyone used a BSD in a VM? <-- yes
19:04:02 <elliott> Vorpal: which (BSD and VM)?
19:04:25 <Vorpal> elliott, I used freebsd (64-bit) in virtualbox (with Intel's VT stuff) about 4 months ago9
19:04:35 <Vorpal> elliott, don't have the install around any longer it seems
19:04:51 <elliott> i'm trying to do 32-bit netbsd and i don't have vt.
19:05:03 <elliott> neither virtualbox nor qemu can boot it OOTB
19:05:05 <Vorpal> elliott, well, you need vt for the 64-bit stuff in virtualbox
19:05:12 <elliott> but then i get network issues
19:05:33 <Vorpal> elliott, I never got network to work under qemu for any OS. Never tried very hard though
19:05:54 <elliott> hell, i got it working in NT 4 for MIPS.
19:06:04 <Vorpal> elliott, didn't with plan9, which was the last thing I used under qemu
19:06:20 <elliott> it would probably have if you tweaked the plan9 config
19:06:20 <ais523> Vorpal: it works pretty trivially (I can't remember whether it needs a command-line option or not), but you don't get an externally visible IP
19:06:24 <ais523> I think it does some sort of NATing
19:06:36 <elliott> ais523: no option needed; it has a default
19:06:51 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah, but well then venti decided to lock up and I had other stuff to do :P
19:06:55 <Vorpal> so I never got that far
19:07:02 <elliott> mknod segfaults when booting netbsd livecd in virtualbox
19:07:20 <Vorpal> ais523, virtualbox NATs too by default
19:07:30 <Vorpal> elliott, your system is jinxed
19:07:51 <Vorpal> elliott, I used netbsd (again 64-bit) about a year ago under virtualbox (again intel vt stuff)
19:08:19 <elliott> also, vt is slower than virtualbox software emulation iirc :)
19:08:22 <elliott> or at least it was a few years ago
19:08:25 <Vorpal> elliott, depends on the OS
19:08:42 <Vorpal> elliott, in my experience it varies widely from case to case which is fastest
19:09:04 <Vorpal> elliott, and it is required for 64-bit guests, so...
19:09:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I hate to say it, but the only OS I found "snappy" under virtualbox was 64-bit xp pro.
19:09:53 <Vorpal> elliott, it is fast enough to feel like "almost native"
19:10:15 <elliott> the bsds have always sucked at VMs :
19:10:33 <elliott> and i am almost certain it will not like all my hardware, so i'm not about to install it without playing first
19:10:47 <Vorpal> elliott, oh yes, I remember freebsd was a pain to get working back in vmware server (this was before virtualbox existed, or before it was widely known at least)
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19:11:20 <pikhq> Okay, it *seems* that what's happening is that this video is occasionally using the wrong field order.
19:11:53 <Vorpal> pikhq, is it interlaced or something?
19:12:08 <pikhq> Vorpal: It's telecined poorly.
19:13:23 <pikhq> I'm *trying* to get mplayer's filters to do the "right thing".
19:15:05 <Vorpal> pikhq, btw, you said it would be nice to be able to store dvds remuxed. And said about 8 gb for each. I just thought about that number.... That means a 128 on a 1 TiB disk.... You would need a large RAID array to be able to store any decent number of dvds that way
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19:15:49 <elliott> Vorpal: you have more than 128 dvds?
19:16:13 <Vorpal> elliott, no, but I don't think pikhq is average. After all he said he had all SNES roms :P
19:16:44 <olsner> you can get at least 2TB disks nowadays, that'd be 256 DVD:s per disk
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19:16:55 <elliott> I plan to build a huuuuge RAID at one point
19:17:09 <elliott> like 5-10 TiB, preferably enough to have that mirrored too
19:17:14 <elliott> disk is only getting cheaper!
19:17:27 <elliott> think of the unholy racket those disks will make!
19:17:32 <Vorpal> elliott, well, I think I finally reached a system that will last for more than one year before it starts to get cramped
19:17:34 <olsner> wow, a 5 disk raid array, that's huuuuge
19:17:44 <elliott> olsner: well, no, it'd be 10
19:17:49 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, I have more than 600 GB unallocated!
19:17:50 <elliott> assuming 1 TiB disks and mirroring
19:17:54 <elliott> olsner: and that *is* huge for home usage
19:18:06 <elliott> ...i guess i could network it somewhere so i don't have to see or hear it, but then access time would suffer
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19:18:49 <Vorpal> elliott, I talked to someone yesterday who recently installed a 60 TB RAID thingy. Hardware RAID, iSCSI, infiband. You name it.
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19:19:02 <Vorpal> elliott, sadly not for home usage
19:19:11 <elliott> Vorpal: if it was for home usage I'd... just want to punch him
19:19:19 <Vorpal> elliott, no that would be bad
19:19:23 <elliott> because 60 TiB for home usage is wasteful to the max :)
19:19:29 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, you would be a prime suspect when it goes missing!
19:19:41 <elliott> Vorpal: HEY I WOULD DIVIDE IT INTO SIX AND DISTRIBUTE IT AMONG THE PEOPLE
19:20:28 <Vorpal> elliott, I doubt it, would need reconfiguring. And iirc it used 2 redundant RAID controllers, not 6
19:20:37 <Vorpal> well, for the top level that is
19:20:47 <Vorpal> it was of course multi-layered
19:20:55 <Vorpal> you just don't run plain RAID6 on that :P
19:21:22 <elliott> it is actually ridiculous how cheap disk is getting
19:22:31 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah well, you wouldn't use desktop disks in such an array
19:22:36 <elliott> you can get 5 TB at 5400 rpm for $300
19:22:50 <elliott> <elliott> because 60 TiB for home usage is wasteful to the max :)
19:22:56 <Vorpal> elliott, you would use server disks, which are smaller, generally higher RPM, lasts longer, and more expensive
19:23:04 <elliott> not for a home system though :)
19:23:14 <elliott> how much disk does RAID 5 get you again?
19:23:45 <elliott> smallest_size * (drives - 1)
19:23:52 <elliott> pikhq: you disagreed with that last time, didn't you?
19:23:57 <Vorpal> well, yeah you don't use different sized drivers in general
19:24:23 <elliott> anyway, then, you can get 4 TB of RAID 5'd 5400 rpm storage for $300
19:24:26 <elliott> going by the wikipedia article
19:24:55 <Vorpal> elliott, btw, if you do software raid (you almost certainly will), and don't care about RAID1 for swap. Don't do RAID0 for those partitions. That is just wasteful and also messes with suspend to disk.
19:25:05 <Vorpal> elliott, what you do is assign both same priority in fstab
19:25:11 <Vorpal> then the kernel will interleave writes
19:25:13 <elliott> Vorpal: this wouldn't be an OS drive
19:25:17 <elliott> it'd be an additional mounted drive
19:25:22 <elliott> *probably* over the network
19:25:33 <ais523> elliott: you want a massive drive just for spare storage purposes?
19:25:37 <elliott> is there a way to do a local network storage device without using nfs or anything of the sort?
19:25:48 <elliott> i just want the equivalent of a really long cable :)
19:25:51 <elliott> ais523: no, it'd be for bulk storage
19:26:08 <ais523> elliott: that's pretty much what I meant
19:26:08 <elliott> ais523: e.g. media (movies, tv series, etc.), large data sets
19:26:14 <ais523> I suppose it could make sense for some people
19:26:20 <elliott> ais523: well, i wouldn't really go for 5 TiB unless i needed it
19:26:30 <ais523> although I grew up on floppy disks, and am horrified at the large file sizes of today
19:26:33 <elliott> but 1 TB i can see myself usnig up
19:26:35 <Vorpal> elliott, do you realise that you want two NICs then?
19:26:46 <elliott> pikhq: you disagreed with wikipedia last time
19:26:46 <Vorpal> elliott, you want a dedicated SAN
19:26:57 <olsner> I use CIFS for my networked storage
19:26:58 <elliott> when wikipedia said that it would give smallest_drive * (num_of_drives - 1)
19:27:02 <elliott> ais523: oh, i dislike large filesizes for no reason
19:27:05 <pikhq> elliott: It should be smallest_size * (drives - 1) for RAID 5, yeah...
19:27:10 <Vorpal> elliott, you don't want this over your normal ethernet. because as far as I remember, it is not friendly to other traffic
19:27:12 <elliott> ais523: but e.g. HD video is large because it's high quality
19:27:24 <Vorpal> I wonder how badly swap over iSCSI would work
19:27:35 <ais523> elliott: "high quality"? HD is 1024x768, isn't it?
19:27:39 <Vorpal> it seems likely that if kernel is trying to swap because lack of memory that would be a really really bad idea
19:27:51 <elliott> ais523: 720p, the lowest HD, is 1280x720
19:28:04 <elliott> ais523: 1080p, i.e. something that actually looks high-definition, is 1920x1080
19:28:32 <pikhq> And 1080i is a monstrosity.
19:28:32 <elliott> ais523: now consider that you use a high quality video format, like H.264, encoded with a good codec with settings optimised for quality, like x264...
19:28:37 <Vorpal> elliott, idea: iSCSI + distributed network filesystem (several computers can access the same *physical* storage unit at once, writing to the same file system. And no, not like nfs.
19:28:46 <ais523> elliott: well, I think that all existing video codecs suck
19:28:46 <elliott> ais523: and you get a movie that takes up quite some gigabytes
19:28:54 <ais523> especially at things they aren't designed for
19:28:57 <Vorpal> you need one of those cluster FSes
19:29:01 <elliott> ais523: x264 is designed very well
19:29:07 <Vorpal> like. ocfs2 or whatever the other one was called
19:29:07 <elliott> for live action and animation video
19:29:12 <ais523> idling #tasvideos, you get lots of discussions about how to get computer games looking as realistic as possible
19:29:15 <elliott> Dark Shikari is basically obsessive about it
19:29:17 <Vorpal> ais523, elliott, 4000p!
19:29:20 <ais523> and x264 is an awful codec for those
19:29:25 <elliott> ais523: right, well, that's not what it's designed for
19:29:33 <ais523> I imagine MNG would be better, but nobody really supports it
19:29:37 <elliott> live action and animated TV/movies it encodes superbly
19:29:44 <elliott> it's pretty much the highest you can get
19:29:55 <elliott> i mean, there's a reason the highest-quality blu-ray releases use H.264
19:29:57 <ais523> elliott: it tends to disintegrate with fast-moving backgrounds
19:30:01 <elliott> and x264 is by far the best H.264 codec
19:30:11 <elliott> ais523: maybe pixely ones.
19:30:14 <pikhq> ais523: Believe me, other lossy codecs are worse.
19:30:24 <ais523> elliott: things like tickertape falling from the ceiling
19:30:24 <Vorpal> ais523, why use a lossy codec?
19:30:26 <ais523> pikhq: oh, I believe you
19:30:30 <pikhq> ais523: Also, what bitrate are you guys trying this at?
19:30:35 <ais523> Vorpal: because lossless leads to insane filesizes?
19:30:35 <elliott> Vorpal: you have no idea how big lossless video is.
19:30:42 <elliott> pikhq: oh, i've heard ais523 talking about these guys
19:30:46 <elliott> pikhq: they're serious encoder dudes
19:30:49 <elliott> like tweaking settings all day
19:30:56 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I do. Several TB for a normal movie.
19:30:57 <elliott> so i don't doubt that x264 fails at what they're doing
19:31:09 <ais523> pikhq: they produce videos encoded in such an insane way that only VLC can handle the resulting videos
19:31:12 <elliott> Vorpal: In HD... probably ... like... 50 TiB.
19:31:12 <pikhq> elliott: For pixellated sources, I'd *imagine* that lossless would be at tolerable size.
19:31:22 <elliott> *Not even movie editing is done losslessly*.
19:31:27 <elliott> They use a very high-quality lossy codec.
19:31:35 <elliott> As soon as they start editing it on a computer.
19:31:43 <elliott> And even *that* requires insane RAID to store.
19:31:50 <Vorpal> elliott, I read about digital editing systems for those multi-IMAX-on-a-sphere cinemas.
19:32:02 <pikhq> ais523: Most Linux media players use the same video handling routines; libavcodec is pretty much THE way to play video.
19:32:05 <elliott> Vorpal: wait, how are you supposed to see everything?
19:32:05 <pikhq> IIRC even VLC uses it.
19:32:10 <elliott> what if someone gets murdered behind you? :p
19:32:14 <Vorpal> elliott, err, half-sphere
19:32:30 <ais523> pikhq: well, I know that Totem at least fails on the things with variable video framerates but constant audio framerates
19:32:35 <elliott> pikhq: "Many of VLC's codecs are provided by the libavcodec library from the FFmpeg project, but it uses mainly its own muxer and demuxers."
19:32:36 <Vorpal> elliott, there is one in Stockholm. Pretty impressive.
19:32:43 <elliott> the muxers and demuxers would matter in ais523's example there
19:32:44 <Vorpal> elliott, ever been to one?
19:32:50 <elliott> Vorpal: no -- not even an IMAX
19:33:03 <pikhq> ais523: mplayer fails at *encoding* such things, but I'm pretty sure it handles them just fine.
19:33:11 <Vorpal> elliott, the one in stockholm have like 7 separate IMAX-projectors with special lenses.
19:33:13 <pikhq> elliott: Well, it's actually just *barely* possible to get lossless compressed video going on normal hardware... For SD.
19:33:50 <Vorpal> elliott, and speakers spread out all over behind the half-sphere thingy
19:34:38 <ais523> elliott: I'm personally unconvinced that DCT is a sensible way to encode video
19:35:01 <ais523> it makes sense for low-frequency images, but there are better ways to encode segments of images that you know are low-frequency
19:35:08 <elliott> clearly we should use a Slow Fourier Transform
19:35:11 <pikhq> (I, for kicks, did that with Elephant's Dream. They distribute PNG-per-frame for it... 21G for 10 minutes of video.)
19:35:29 <elliott> pikhq: please tell me you made it into an MNG
19:35:32 <pikhq> Oh, wait. That's the 1080p.
19:35:38 <ais523> for high-frequency images, the results it produces don't really correspond to the original
19:35:54 <elliott> pikhq: so a 100 minute movie could be only 210G?
19:36:09 <pikhq> elliott: If *compressed losslessly*, yes.
19:36:25 <pikhq> And that's for 1080p.
19:36:28 <elliott> pikhq: but that'll be the result, which will have been edited
19:36:30 <pikhq> That's actually entirely practical.
19:36:33 <ais523> really, the descriptions of DCT I see - decompose the image into frequency components, delete the ones with low amplitude - in practice effectively becomes "decompose the image into frequency components, ignore the high-frequency ones"
19:36:35 <Vorpal> ais523, do professional movie productions try to avoid it or something?
19:36:53 <pikhq> Slightly painful, sure, but it's entirely practical to do lossless video editing.
19:36:56 <ais523> Vorpal: no, because all JPEG-like codecs are based on it, effectively
19:37:00 <ais523> for both images and video
19:37:03 <elliott> pikhq: the images that the png are
19:37:07 <elliott> will be frames from a lossy video
19:37:10 <elliott> in a high-quality lossy codec
19:37:13 <elliott> that the film was edited in
19:37:21 <Vorpal> ais523, I meant, try to avoid stuff where it gives bad results
19:37:32 <pikhq> elliott: No, no, no. The Elephant's Dream 1080p PNG files are the *output from the 3D renderer*.
19:37:39 <elliott> pikhq: oh. fair enough then :D
19:37:56 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/JPEG_JFIF_and_2000_Comparison.png jpeg 200: worse than jpeg!
19:38:07 <ais523> wouldn't the input to the 3D renderer be considerably smaller?
19:38:13 <ais523> that would make a better codec in that example
19:38:22 <elliott> ais523: but decompression would take many, many hours
19:38:23 <ais523> except for the fact that it would take too long to decode
19:38:24 <Vorpal> elliott, what is the point of that format
19:38:31 <elliott> Vorpal: jpeg 2000? it's the official successor to jpeg
19:38:39 <pikhq> ais523: Yes. They distribute *that* on the DVDs.
19:38:47 <pikhq> Along with the actual DVD video.
19:38:54 <Vorpal> elliott, is that just a worst-case image? Or is that representative of the general results?
19:38:59 <elliott> Vorpal: well it is a small image
19:39:03 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JPEG_2000
19:39:20 <elliott> "JPEG 2000 has many design commonalities with the ICER image compression format that is used to send images back from the Mars rovers."
19:39:26 <ais523> now, you can imagine something larger than the actual sources, but similar
19:39:50 <Vorpal> elliott, no one uses jpeg 2000, and it has been around for years
19:39:52 <ais523> something like a 3D input format that's partially rendered
19:40:14 <ais523> hmm, theory: is it possible to cache things between frames when 3D rendering?
19:40:22 <ais523> I see no theoretical reason why it /wouldn't/ be, at least in some cases
19:40:40 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICER
19:40:58 <ais523> hmm, theory: is it possible to cache things between frames when 3D rendering?
19:41:11 <Vorpal> ais523, you asked that already
19:41:18 <ais523> *(it's this sort of reasoning that lead to me working on that roguelike routing algorithm)
19:41:28 <ais523> Vorpal: I know; if I repeat a line unexpectedly, it's almost always due to a typo
19:41:33 <ais523> my IRC client makes that typo rather easy
19:41:42 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway. Depends on illumination model I would guess.
19:41:47 <elliott> "APNG hides the subsequent frames in PNG ancillary chunks in such a way that APNG-unaware applications would ignore them, but there are otherwise no changes to the format to allow software to distinguish between animated and non-animated images."
19:42:11 <elliott> "Mozilla Firefox added support for APNG in version 3 trunk builds on March 23, 2007.[5] However, because libpng is the PNG Group's reference implementation of the official specification, APNG support can never be supported in the main libpng distribution so long as it remains unratified by the Group. Consequently, Iceweasel 3 does not support APNG.[6]"
19:42:23 <Vorpal> ais523, with raytraceing, moving anything could change how light reflects and that could give effects way later in the path of the photon
19:42:34 <elliott> Iceweasel vs GNU IceCat: discuss
19:42:36 <pikhq> elliott: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:2d41d737527e809d7511d0643b49bdfae5e6ad8e YOU KNOW YOU WANT TO.
19:42:47 <Vorpal> ais523, effects of a local change _could_ be global
19:42:49 <ais523> Vorpal: indeed; but full raytracing is rarely actually used
19:43:03 <ais523> and even then, you can cache parts of the calculation that aren't illumination
19:43:04 <elliott> pikhq: OH MY GOD WHY WOULD YOU LINK ME TO AN IMAGE OF A BEAR KICKING A CAT AND A PUPPY
19:43:19 <Vorpal> ais523, go to the examples on povray's website ;P
19:43:19 <ais523> elliott: I actually prefer the name Iceweasel
19:43:20 <pikhq> elliott: It's about 21 gigs of PNGs. :)
19:43:27 <ais523> Vorpal: I know it's been done
19:43:27 <elliott> ais523: ditto, it's also less GNU, which helps
19:43:34 <Vorpal> ais523, and the results are often awesome
19:43:40 <ais523> that doesn't make it actually often used, though
19:43:49 <ais523> it's just too CPU-intensive with modern technology
19:43:57 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway, even with more everyday-raytracing, you could get global effects from local changes
19:44:02 <Vorpal> just somewhat less risk
19:44:05 <elliott> "GNU IceCat is available as a free download for the IA-32 and PowerPC architectures. Both binaries and source are available, though the current build is available only for GNU/Linux."
19:44:25 <pikhq> elliott: From xiph.org's test media. :)
19:44:34 <elliott> pikhq: can't get any peers. sorry
19:44:43 <Vorpal> ais523, radiosity, not sure how global that is
19:45:10 <ais523> Vorpal: you are missing my point
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19:45:28 <ais523> even if, say, illlumination can't be cached, things like shaders often could be
19:45:44 <elliott> "Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come." --Friedrich Nietzsche
19:45:50 <pikhq> Oh, wow. *Raw* 480p of Elephant's Dream is just 7.5GB.
19:45:55 <pikhq> That's *without any compression at all*.
19:46:08 <ais523> elliott: please tell me that's a genuine quote
19:46:20 <ais523> somehow, it looks like one of those "nonsense attributed to a famous person to make it amusing" quotes
19:46:27 <elliott> ais523: it is if you wrap it in another layer of quotes and append "--Matt Groening" to the end
19:47:10 <elliott> ais523: Debian so need to put that in the about box
19:47:16 <elliott> or about:mozilla, if it still exists and shows the silly fake Bible thing
19:47:24 <elliott> (i bet mozilla.org removed that because of OFFENCE)
19:47:26 <Vorpal> ais523, isn't shaders mostly used for rendering on GPUs? Which means it wouldn't be pre-rendered anyway
19:47:53 <Vorpal> I may be completely wrong
19:48:18 <ais523> Vorpal: shaders are used for everything
19:48:50 <ais523> put it this way: out of the things usually used in a graphics pipeline, shaders are the TC bit
19:49:12 <elliott> pikhq: There are no good panel applications for X11. Please rectify this.
19:49:36 <Vorpal> ais523, the wp article on shaders is bad. It doesn't seem to mention it in the context of rendering for movies and such at all. Just for the GPU context.
19:49:56 <ais523> Vorpal: well, a shader is basically a bit of code that runs on the GPU
19:50:04 <ais523> modifying either vertices or pixels in arbitrary ways
19:50:23 <ais523> you'd do much the same thing for, say, smoke effects in a 3D movie
19:50:29 <Vorpal> ais523, so they are not used when you render something in blender or povray?
19:50:56 <ais523> it almost certainly depends on what you're rendering
19:51:11 <ais523> povray probably doesn't use them because it's insane; I expect blender would, though
19:51:38 <elliott> One reason why lwm is excellent: Its original developer is "elliotth".
19:51:52 <elliott> That "elliotth" happens to maintain an editor which is inspired by Plan 9's acme.
19:51:59 <elliott> Clone, right? SORRY NO HE USES JAVA.
19:52:09 <Vorpal> ais523, traditionally "offline" rendering software did not use the GPU at all
19:52:27 <elliott> The h actually stands for hughes, regrettably. But whatever.
19:52:43 <Vorpal> ais523, it just goes about raytracing on the CPU, until it is done
19:53:10 <ais523> but GPUs are faster for that sort of calculation
19:54:31 <Vorpal> ais523, well yes, it would use it as GP-GPU though, you don't want opengl/directx rendering look to it. You want something that looks way more realistic
19:56:32 <Vorpal> elliott, would work yes
19:56:46 <ais523> adanaxis uses shaders in order to get 4D rendering
19:56:55 <ais523> presumably, it has a 4D->3D projection shader as a vertex shader
19:57:23 <ais523> and then lets the graphics lib handle 3D->2D
19:57:24 <elliott> i think adanaxis would break my brain
19:57:35 <ais523> it's not that bad, really
19:57:35 <Vorpal> ais523, also blender for offline rendering still worked on sucky GPUs last I checked
19:57:43 <elliott> ais523: i am really terrible at envisioning higher dimensions
19:57:50 <elliott> was so bad it wasn't even funny
19:57:53 <Vorpal> ais523, such as old on-board intel in laptop
19:57:58 <elliott> ais523: how does it represent 4d?
19:58:04 <Vorpal> old enough to probably not have very advanced shaders
19:58:07 <ais523> elliott: strangely, with adanaxis I can't visualise where everything is, but I can visualise how I need to move to get there
19:58:26 <Vorpal> ais523, was it free or? I don't remember
19:58:33 <ais523> and via color, and with coordinates of everything relative to your current heading marked on it
19:58:34 <elliott> Vorpal: gpl with some commercial data available, it seems
19:58:36 <elliott> "But other objects are rendered, very roughly, as projections of 4D objects on the 2D screen.[6] In the game manual, the author says he didn’t yet figure out how to implement real 4D and 4D explosions without making the game require a thousand times more processing power.[1]"
19:58:37 <pikhq> *Finally* figured out how I'm going to do this. pullup followed by the yadif deinterlacer.
19:58:43 <elliott> "The game is distributed under the Mushware Software License version 1.4, which refers to the GNU GPL v2, the public domain, proprietary and a number of other licenses."
19:58:53 <ais523> Vorpal: there's a GPL version, which is the main version minus all the proprietary stuff
19:59:00 <ais523> it's the version I use, but it's only available for Linux
19:59:14 <Vorpal> ais523, well, I'm going to use linux definitely
19:59:30 <Vorpal> ais523, I can't find the source download
19:59:40 <ais523> Vorpal: what distro are you on?
19:59:47 <Sgeo> What's this about 4D?
19:59:48 <Vorpal> ais523, arch linux, 64-bit
19:59:52 <pikhq> It's imperfect, but best I can do.
19:59:57 <Vorpal> ais523, they only have .deb and .rpm
19:59:57 <ais523> it's in the repos on Ubuntu (and presumably Debian)
20:00:09 <Vorpal> ais523, and I definitely don't want to play this on on-board intel graphics :P
20:00:11 <ais523> Vorpal: is there a source .deb?
20:00:17 <elliott> i'm sure it'll work with intel
20:00:19 <ais523> also, onboard Intel graphics is what I use to play it
20:00:28 <ais523> I get intel graphics deliberately, because they work well with Linux
20:00:32 <Vorpal> elliott, probably but smaller screen and such
20:00:47 <elliott> Vorpal: well, i have the same system as him except with 1366x768
20:00:53 <ais523> Vorpal: the game isn't massively intensive
20:01:00 <Vorpal> elliott, I doubt I could get 4xAA with it. I can with my desktop though
20:01:03 <ais523> elliott: "except"? mine is also 1366x768, IIRC
20:01:13 <elliott> Vorpal: is your enjoyment of a game directly enhanced by that extra AA?
20:01:19 <elliott> ais523: i thought you had the 11 inch version
20:01:32 <elliott> ais523: damn you and your higher ppi!
20:01:34 <ais523> the pixels are smaller, I think
20:01:37 <ais523> elliott: and take that back?
20:01:40 <elliott> ais523: no, just closer together
20:01:44 <elliott> ais523: bah, fine, i take it back
20:01:49 -!- yiyus_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:01:55 <elliott> i only wish you to be tortured for a billion years because of ppi, not eternity
20:02:13 <elliott> ais523: i can understand how "damn you" is insulting if you're religious and believe in hell
20:02:25 <Vorpal> wait, there is one saying "control demo 0.0.1, source files" and one saying "rendering demo 0.0.1, source files"
20:02:25 <elliott> but how can me saying it be offensive, as i absolutely do not believe that any such thing will or should happen?
20:02:45 <Vorpal> "If you'd like to build from source, GPL releases will be along towards the end of July 2007. These will contain source code but not the commercially-sourced graphics and audio (because of the distribution terms of that content). "
20:02:50 <Vorpal> seems like that didn't happen
20:02:54 <ais523> elliott: well, insults can be offensive even if you don't need them
20:03:03 <ais523> Vorpal: I have that versoin /installed/
20:03:08 <elliott> so of course source is available
20:03:09 <Vorpal> ais523, the source one?
20:03:29 <Vorpal> elliott, look at, http://www.mushware.com/portal.php?page=10 notice it says 1.1.4 and such?
20:03:44 <Vorpal> elliott, then look at the version numbers on http://www.mushware.com/dload.php?action=category&cat_id=7&sid=b132c2cf9fa05a3a16320b70609bc36e
20:03:52 <elliott> Vorpal: look harder. debian would never package non-free software.
20:04:33 * coppro plots out course plans for the coming years
20:04:35 <Vorpal> elliott, hm I guess I could download the source from debian.
20:04:37 <elliott> Vorpal: failing that, get the source from debian.
20:04:45 <Vorpal> elliott, hah, 2 seconds before you ;)
20:04:50 <ais523> elliott: I just did that, uploading to filebin.ca now
20:04:58 <ais523> so three people have the same idea
20:05:13 <elliott> ais523: err, why upload it?
20:05:18 <elliott> it's available from 438593745934578934578934598345 mirrors already
20:05:33 <ais523> presumably it'll be in a package
20:05:41 <ais523> I extracted the orig.tar.gz from the .deb, and am uploading that
20:05:45 <elliott> "[adanaxisgpl_1.2.5.dfsg.1.orig.tar.gz]"
20:05:49 <elliott> see packages.debian.org/stable/adanaxisgpl
20:06:07 <ais523> the dfsg in the version number is pretty interesting
20:06:15 <ais523> presumably, Debian had to modify it to make it open source
20:06:18 -!- quintopia has left (?).
20:06:58 -!- catseye has joined.
20:06:58 <elliott> "The documentation for this package is supplied in a PDF file named
20:06:59 <elliott> data-adanaxis/About_Adanaxis_GPL.pdf"
20:07:02 <ais523> aha, reading the copyright you know what happened?
20:07:17 <ais523> let's see... an empty directory isn't preserved in .zip files
20:07:37 <ais523> so in order to make sure the distro unpacked properly, the Adanaxis added an empty file to it, as normal
20:07:47 <ais523> anyway, they somehow managed to specify that the empty file in question wasn't GPL
20:08:35 <ais523> I think, it's quite hard to follow what happened
20:09:08 <elliott> ais523: with another empty file?
20:09:13 <catseye> Gregor: while your Persistent Pessimism Principle serves well, in this case it did not hold, as it was overridden by Laziness ("what is the least we must do to reinstall Windows on this laptop" resolved to "only touch the Windows partition")
20:09:24 <ais523> elliott: with a comment saying /* this is GPL */ or something along those lines, I think
20:09:47 <ais523> I may have misinterpreted this
20:09:52 <ais523> but I hope I haven't, as it's hilarious
20:10:18 <ais523> what happened was that the source was split into GPL/PD/proprietary
20:10:30 <ais523> with filename conditions to tell which was which
20:10:49 <ais523> and after removing the proprietary stuff, they had to add a stub to get it to compile
20:10:57 <ais523> with the same filename as what was there
20:11:39 <ais523> and so there's a big exception saying that despite the license, the file in question is actually GPL
20:12:50 <ais523> despite being, basically, an empty file
20:13:14 <Vorpal> debian/rules sets that
20:13:28 <ais523> C-INTERCAL uses "-Wl,-z,muldefs"
20:13:34 <ais523> in order to delete redundant copies of main()
20:13:39 <Vorpal> Disallows undefined symbols in object files. Undefined symbols in shared libraries are still allowed.
20:13:59 <Vorpal> ais523, hope it deletes the right one then
20:14:06 <ais523> Vorpal: they're all identical anyway...
20:14:48 <catseye> that's very computery of it
20:15:08 <Vorpal> ais523, which one is the first one?
20:15:12 <ais523> normally it errors out, but when you specifically tell it not to, it has to do something else
20:15:24 <ais523> Vorpal: first on the command line, first in the archive as a tiebreak, I imagine
20:15:30 <Vorpal> ais523, why did someone decide to add an option to not error out on that
20:15:46 <ais523> (proof that it's useful: I used it)
20:16:02 <Vorpal> ais523, uh, c-intercal is not very normal so...
20:16:10 <ais523> Vorpal: that doesn't mean it isn't useful, though!
20:16:18 <ais523> "isn't normally used" != "not useful"
20:16:21 <Vorpal> I mean, the normal case would be handled by the compiler marking it as common or such
20:16:34 <Vorpal> not for functions though
20:17:17 <elliott> ais523: does that mean you can put definitions in header files?
20:17:39 <ais523> elliott: I suppose so, although it would screw with whole-program optimization
20:17:55 <ais523> and seems rather like a bad idea
20:18:11 <ais523> you could even put int x = 5; in a different header file
20:18:42 <Vorpal> configure: Verdict was:
20:18:42 <Vorpal> configure: CPPFLAGS= -I/usr/include/SDL -D_GNU_SOURCE=1 -D_REENTRANT -I${srcdir} -I${srcdir}/API -DNDEBUG -I${srcdir}/Platform/X11
20:19:01 <Vorpal> oh and it also lists LDFLAGS and LIBS there
20:19:32 <catseye> THAT FOX HAS NO TAIL AND IT IS HUGGING THAT PLANET
20:19:58 <elliott> catseye: You mean the... Firefox logo?
20:20:11 <elliott> Its body is sort of a tail.
20:20:15 <elliott> It doesn't make much anatomical sense.
20:20:36 <Vorpal> catseye, why now. I mean, it been around for a numbers of years...
20:20:37 <Sgeo> Shower in 10min :D:D:D<3
20:21:03 <pikhq> elliott: Y'know the perfect solution to the various framerates out there? High-quality CRT HDTV that handles them all. DONE.
20:21:14 <Vorpal> Sgeo, err... why :D:D:D
20:21:16 <ais523> elliott: I remember a discussion I saw online about how to replace people's browsers with Firefox without them noticing
20:21:33 <Vorpal> I'm sure we all love to maintain hygiene, but.... wtf :P
20:21:34 <ais523> someone said that they left both an IE and a Firefox icon on the desktop, /both/ opening Firefox
20:21:35 <catseye> Anyway, good to know that is a logo and not a psychotic delusion on my part.
20:21:37 <ais523> that seems a bit overkill
20:21:38 <Sgeo> Vorpal, it marks me taking daily showers again
20:21:57 <Vorpal> err yes and? That is quite common
20:22:29 <elliott> "It is Fedora's policy to close all
20:22:30 <elliott> bug reports from releases that are no longer maintained."
20:22:49 <Sgeo> As opposed to weekly showers
20:22:56 <Sgeo> And as opposed to having to go elsewhere
20:22:58 <catseye> stupid unmaintained bug reports
20:23:14 <Vorpal> elliott, I guess they think "well, people will mark them as affecting other releases as well, or reopen them in worst case"
20:23:28 <elliott> Vorpal: it's still stupid :p
20:23:38 <elliott> relevant: http://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html
20:23:47 <Vorpal> elliott, well, what are they going to do? Delete them? leave them open forever?
20:23:55 <elliott> Vorpal: leave them open until they're fixed
20:23:58 <Vorpal> elliott, after all, if they don't affect the next release, the thing is fixed
20:24:03 <Vorpal> from their point of view
20:24:03 <elliott> then it should be marked as fixed
20:24:07 <elliott> because it was fixed and marked in the bug tracker
20:24:10 <elliott> not because "oh, i hope it just went away"
20:24:14 <Vorpal> elliott, the real issue is that they are not doing rolling release
20:24:21 <Vorpal> elliott, with rolling release it would be no issue
20:24:31 <elliott> Vorpal: you can't rolling-release Gnome...
20:24:35 <elliott> (it was Fedora, but still)
20:24:44 <Gregor> Close them automatically after N time.
20:24:46 <Gregor> That's what Mozilla does.
20:24:51 <Vorpal> elliott, .... I meant for distro
20:24:56 <Vorpal> please read what I said
20:25:07 <elliott> i was saying that it only applies in one very specific case
20:25:12 <Vorpal> elliott, I never claimed it would be relevant for a non-distro
20:25:24 <Vorpal> elliott, though I know of rolling release non-distros
20:25:44 <Vorpal> elliott, mrd6 seems to be that way for example
20:25:55 <elliott> rolling release software is generally an excuse not to bother to mark certain commits as stable :)
20:26:04 <elliott> "Trunk? Sure, it'll probably work!"
20:26:12 <elliott> "Please let it work. Please let it work. Please let it work."
20:26:25 <catseye> It works for everything *I* care about.
20:26:25 <elliott> "Well, you DID use the development tree release!"
20:26:34 <elliott> "What can you expect from a git repository?! Silly boy."
20:26:57 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway, bogons does multicast :D
20:26:58 <catseye> (Hey why wouldn't it / of course it doesn't) work
20:27:24 <elliott> Vorpal: i... don't know what that is :<
20:27:55 <Vorpal> elliott, well, if it isn't hooked up to m6bone it isn't very useful as the situation currently stands. Google it.
20:28:06 <Vorpal> elliott, wp has a useful article on it
20:28:07 <elliott> where's the list of nodes?
20:28:23 <elliott> Vorpal: wikipedia has no "m6bone" article
20:28:47 <catseye> i assume it's like the MBONE for IPv6 or something
20:29:07 <elliott> A November 1994 Rolling Stones concert at the Cotton Bowl in Dallas with 50,000 fans was the "first major cyberspace multicast concert." Mick Jagger opened the concert by saying, "I wanna say a special welcome to everyone that's, uh, climbed into the Internet tonight and, uh, has got into the M-bone. And I hope it doesn't all collapse."
20:29:15 <elliott> ^ I APPROVE OF THIS SO HARD
20:29:25 <Vorpal> catseye, indeed. And unlike mbone it is still active, though currently the activity is shrinking
20:29:35 <elliott> Vorpal: link me to the WP article
20:30:00 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:30:01 <Vorpal> elliott, well maybe it was mentioned in some other article there
20:30:09 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway, is there a list of who's connected to ti?
20:30:31 <elliott> bah, the top two services I can get from bogons:
20:30:39 <Vorpal> elliott, not sure. sixxs has a list of POPs and lists which ones are connected
20:30:43 <elliott> 8 Mb/s download, 448 Kb/s upload, £60 setup, £35/mo
20:30:49 <elliott> 8 Mb/s download, 832 Kb/s upload, £60 setup, £45/mo
20:30:56 <Vorpal> elliott, mine is not directly connected there
20:31:07 <Vorpal> it does limited multicast though
20:31:16 <catseye> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6bone
20:31:32 <elliott> Vorpal: i can either get shitty, fast, reasonably-priced broadband or excellent, sort-of-midway-fast, expensive as hell broadband!
20:31:36 <Vorpal> elliott, the latter matches my speed pretty well. The price is about twice of mine
20:31:37 <elliott> YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY
20:31:47 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah but bogons are like
20:31:59 <elliott> probably more business customers
20:32:14 <elliott> Vorpal: one of the... two staff members is the one who originally registered bbc.co.uk :)
20:33:10 <elliott> Vorpal: ok so where's the list of connected people >_>
20:33:19 <Vorpal> elliott, it wasn't creating by the academics thinking "oh dear, we seem to have more commercial customers than universities hooked up now, maybe we should split that off or something"
20:33:26 <Vorpal> which was how the ISP I use came to be
20:33:32 <Vorpal> back in 1992 or 1993 iirc
20:33:43 <Vorpal> elliott, m6bone != 6bone
20:33:45 <elliott> When it became obvious that the availability of IPv6 top level production prefixes was assured, and that commercial and private IPv6 networks were being operated outside the 6bone using these prefixes, a plan was developed to phase out the 6bone (see RFC 3701).
20:33:46 <elliott> The phaseout plan called for a halt to new 6bone prefix allocations on 1 January 2004 and the complete cessation of 6bone operation and routing over the 6bone testing prefixes on 6 June 2006. Addresses within the 6bone testing prefix have now reverted to the IANA, and should no longer be used.
20:33:49 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:33:54 <elliott> and i trust catseye with my HEART
20:34:00 <Vorpal> elliott, well. They are different
20:34:01 <catseye> there doesn't seem to BE an "m6bone"
20:34:10 <elliott> Vorpal: so *give me the list of things on m6bone*!
20:34:15 <Vorpal> http://www.m6bone.net/
20:34:17 <elliott> catseye: http://www.m6bone.net/
20:34:19 <elliott> catseye: most useless site ever
20:34:33 <Vorpal> elliott, googling m6bone: "About 203,000 results (0.07 seconds) "
20:34:48 <elliott> i can't find a fucking list of ISPs that are fucking conn fucking ected!
20:34:51 <Vorpal> elliott, http://www.sixxs.net/faq/connectivity/?faq=multicast
20:35:05 <Vorpal> elliott, well I don't know of such a list eithyer
20:35:10 <elliott> Vorpal: ...then how the hell am i meant to know?
20:35:23 <Vorpal> elliott, I asked because I presumed they would list it
20:35:44 <elliott> "Optional included extras: [...] Multicast and/or IPv6 routing over ADSL"
20:36:08 <Vorpal> adanaxis takes forever to compile btw
20:36:12 <elliott> "Optional routed IP (/29 or /30 from us)" only £2/month, awesome
20:36:13 <Vorpal> oh, says g++ in the output
20:36:18 <oerjan> <elliott> can a program that outputs (a program that outputs X) be smaller than the smallest program that outputs X?
20:36:33 <Vorpal> oerjan, sounds like compression
20:36:47 <elliott> oerjan: i realise that if you have eval
20:36:48 <Sgeo> Oh wow didn't notice the time
20:36:51 <Sgeo> Shower time :D
20:36:59 <elliott> eval(that program) could be shorter than the others
20:37:01 <elliott> but assume you don't have eval
20:37:05 <oerjan> i don't know but it reminds me and may be related to a result that there are theorems P such that provable(P) has a much shorter proof than P
20:37:07 <elliott> also assume that the language doesn't cheat
20:37:16 <elliott> where F outputs "QQQQQQQQQ"
20:37:57 <Vorpal> elliott, would it be correct to state that if (size of xz + size output of "xz -9 -e otherprogram") < size of otherprogram
20:38:01 <oerjan> also even if you don't have eval you should be able to implement it with little overhead
20:38:03 <Vorpal> then your condition is true?
20:38:25 <elliott> Vorpal: let's consider xz and xz^-1 as two functions instead
20:38:42 <elliott> and Q == the implementation of xz and xz^-1
20:38:48 <Vorpal> elliott, if you are picky add a shell script wrapper that includes an embedded xz binary and the compressed data
20:39:07 <elliott> so you're saying basically that
20:39:12 <elliott> |Q| + |xz(P_0)| + C <= P_1
20:39:19 <elliott> where C is the constant overhead of actually calling xz^-1 on it
20:39:34 <Vorpal> a few bytes rather, but yeah
20:39:34 <elliott> |Q| + |xz(P_0)| + C <= P_0
20:39:39 <elliott> |Q| + |xz(P_0)| + C <= |P_0|
20:39:41 <elliott> then yes, that would meet the condition
20:40:02 <Vorpal> elliott, for a sufficiently large P_0 it should be true
20:40:10 <elliott> P_0 has to be the smallest possible program that outputs whatever it does
20:40:24 <elliott> Vorpal: you're talking about an output of many, many random bits
20:40:24 <Vorpal> elliott, err, well, then that is trickier
20:40:26 <elliott> and guess what xz can't compress?
20:40:45 <elliott> (P_0 has to be basically an output statement for its output to be random like that)
20:40:47 <Vorpal> elliott, random, hm. is pseudorandom okay?
20:40:54 <elliott> Vorpal: not for kolgomorov complexity
20:40:54 <Vorpal> wait, wouldn't help much
20:41:04 <elliott> i'm deferring to oerjan who can explain things much less confuzzledly than me :D
20:41:24 <Vorpal> elliott, hm.... define "smallest possible program"
20:41:34 <elliott> Vorpal: um, do you know what kolgomorov complexity is?
20:41:49 <elliott> smallest program that outputs X is the program P such that |P| <= |Q| for all Q that output X
20:41:58 <elliott> where K is kolgomorov complexity
20:42:14 <elliott> completely random data can't be generated algorithmically, so basically we have a print statement followed by all the data
20:42:24 <elliott> so K(X) = |X| + C if X is truly random
20:42:27 <elliott> C just being the "print" overhead
20:42:35 <Vorpal> elliott, well, it could be smaller on a different system.
20:42:50 <elliott> you are *such* a fucking software engineer
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20:43:11 <elliott> lambda calculus represented as binary doesn't change :p
20:43:35 <oerjan> Vorpal: any particular string can be compressed smaller on a particular system, but _most_ strings cannot be compressed (in the kolmogorov or most other senses)
20:43:58 <elliott> kolgomorov complexity is really deep and beautiful imo
20:44:10 <elliott> it's like half of information theory right there :P
20:44:25 <oerjan> also for two different TC systems there's always a bound to how different their kolmogorov complexities can be - just simulate each in the other
20:44:27 * pikhq has redone his x264 encoding options
20:44:30 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway what about this: We have a architecture where the minimal way to output "foo" is 14 instructions long. There is another, single, instruction however, which outputs this sequence of 14 instruction
20:44:39 <pikhq> -x264encopts preset=slow
20:44:41 <elliott> Vorpal: i already said HQ9+F is not allowed
20:44:45 <elliott> where F outputs a bunch of Qs
20:44:52 <elliott> Vorpal: we can think of different systems
20:44:56 <elliott> but i mean something like the lambda calculus
20:45:00 <Vorpal> elliott, well, it could have lots and lots of more instructions apart of those.
20:45:06 <pikhq> Thank you, x264, for adding presets since I last did the configuration for all that.
20:45:11 <elliott> devising a system which allows this can be interesting, but only if it emerges from the definition
20:45:24 <elliott> and really i'm asking about things like the binary lambda calculus / ski / turing machine / etc.
20:45:34 <Vorpal> elliott, so what you are asking is really "are there any existing languages that allow this"?
20:45:52 <elliott> i'm asking an open-ended question to explore in interesting ways.
20:45:58 <elliott> if this concept is foreign to you i apologise.
20:46:18 <oerjan> a more interesting question could be if _all_ TC languages allow this
20:46:35 <elliott> oerjan: so, your intuition is that K(P) < K(X) where P outputs X probably exists in lambda calculus or whatever?
20:46:41 <elliott> but it might be, I suppose
20:46:46 <Vorpal> elliott, it isn't very well defined though, and I'm coming up with solutions based on what I know about the question, and you keep adding restrictions (that I didn't see mentioned above)
20:46:55 <elliott> although it feels like getting that result would be so dangerously close to K(X) < K(X) :)
20:47:06 <Vorpal> elliott, if you think I'm going to go back and log read the original convo you are wrong
20:47:09 -!- yiyus_ has joined.
20:47:11 <elliott> oerjan: add one new element to the language, just eval
20:47:18 <Vorpal> it seems to have been ages ago
20:47:26 <elliott> oerjan: then, if the program that outputs P is more than one instruction shorter th--
20:47:30 <elliott> that just changes it for that language
20:47:48 <oerjan> well my intuition is that if there is some generic construction in some TC language with arbitrarily large difference in the sizes, then it can probably be converted to any other TC system
20:47:48 <elliott> Vorpal: i'm not adding restrictions, i'm rejecting your uninteresting answers
20:47:55 <Vorpal> elliott, huh, adanaxis uses *.tiff in the data files it installs
20:48:05 <elliott> oerjan: well i'm finding it hard to think of e.g. a python example, as a practical matter
20:48:12 <elliott> oerjan: but then, you can't really measure python in bytes
20:48:15 <Vorpal> elliott, define "interesting"
20:48:23 <elliott> Vorpal: everything that is not you.
20:48:26 <catseye> i think it's similar to compressing a compressed file.
20:48:34 <Vorpal> elliott, so anything I say you will just reject?
20:48:40 <elliott> catseye: you don't have to output the smallest program to output X
20:48:44 <elliott> you just have to output any old program to output X
20:48:53 <elliott> as long as the program that outputs that any old program is shorter than the *shortest* program that outputs X
20:49:00 <oerjan> elliott: or wait, the fact that you can embed an interpreter for the language itself probably means you _cannot_ have arbitrarily large size difference
20:49:03 <elliott> K(P) < K(X) where P outputs X
20:49:12 <elliott> but the program that provides the length for K(X) does not need to be P
20:49:17 <elliott> it can be a vastly-shorter-than-P Q
20:49:30 <elliott> Vorpal: maybe if you start being interesting like catseye and oerjan and not proposing HQ9+F i will listen
20:49:47 <elliott> oerjan: establishing upper bounds sounds fun (although very difficult)
20:50:13 <Vorpal> elliott, I thought the question was "is this possible". And it seems like a valid way to note "yes possible, but perhaps not usefully so"
20:50:18 <elliott> oerjan: of course, if you have an eval instruction, then however much overhead just evalling is, is an upper bound
20:50:34 <elliott> Vorpal: it's very obviously possible...
20:51:00 <elliott> oerjan: hmm, consider a language that, when a program results in a string that's a valid program, evals it, and repeats until it's an invalid program
20:51:09 <elliott> oerjan: we can't do this in that language, since the program it outputs would eval itself, etc.
20:51:19 <elliott> oerjan: i guess we could encode it actually
20:51:23 <ais523> elliott: that's an ingenious way to make a quineless language
20:51:31 <ais523> although ofc it isn't then capable of arbitrary output
20:51:46 <elliott> oerjan: but otoh, i very much doubt that ANY program outputting a goedel-or-similar-encoded program can be shorter than the *shortest program* program outputting the same thing in the native format
20:52:11 <elliott> oerjan: so i *think* those languages might be counterexamples
20:52:28 <elliott> oerjan: *every* x in K(x) would have to be something-encoded in this language
20:52:39 <elliott> since otherwise K would be ... partial, and that makes no sense at all
20:52:44 <elliott> oerjan: so no, disregard that, not a counterexample
20:52:52 <oerjan> <elliott> Vorpal: maybe if you start being interesting like catseye and oerjan and not proposing HQ9+F i will listen <-- hey _I_ added X to it, not that different :D
20:53:07 -!- wareya_ has joined.
20:53:12 <elliott> oerjan: well that was in your regrettably-misspent youth.
20:53:36 <Vorpal> fuck, adanaxis, it refuses windowed mode and also refuses native resolution
20:53:42 <Vorpal> ais523, any idea how to fix that?
20:53:50 <ais523> Vorpal: it does the same to me, I just play in 1024x768
20:53:51 <Vorpal> can it be made to do windowed mode in some hidden way
20:53:53 <ais523> the screen can manage it
20:54:02 <Vorpal> ais523, I have 1680x1050
20:54:09 <elliott> it's a separate resolution
20:54:12 <Sgeo> That was unpleasant
20:54:12 <catseye> my guess is, if there is a shorter "generator generator" than a generator, it's only shorter by a "+ C" if you know what I mean
20:54:14 <elliott> for all windowed resolutions
20:54:17 <Sgeo> The water failed to stay hot
20:54:26 <elliott> catseye: but that's the thing
20:54:39 <elliott> catseye: we could have a 3-byte program that outputs "print X; print X; print X" a billion times
20:54:44 <elliott> catseye: and a 4-byte program that outputs X a billion times
20:54:51 <elliott> the 3-byte program doesn't output the 4-byte program
20:54:51 -!- wareya_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:54:52 <Vorpal> elliott, 800x600 windowed? yeargh that is small
20:54:54 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:54:56 <elliott> but it outputs a program that *outputs the same thing*
20:55:06 <catseye> elliott: i understand that.
20:55:27 <elliott> catseye: it seems like the kind of thing that you can prove and then when you try and derive an example it turns out to be five gigabytes big :)
20:55:36 <Vorpal> elliott, it doesn't go above the tiny 800x600 for windowed mode!
20:55:40 <oerjan> catseye: yes, as i said the difference cannot be more than the length of wrapping the generator in a self-interpreter implementation
20:55:41 <Sgeo> When was the last time I disagreed with elliott about something?
20:55:46 <elliott> i think that this would only occur at quite long bit lengths. but then the generator-generator would have to be bigger...
20:55:58 <elliott> Sgeo: are you doing so now?
20:56:02 <Vorpal> elliott, hm is there any tutorial?
20:56:07 <Sgeo> I don't even know the topi
20:56:10 <elliott> Vorpal: for kolgomorov complexity?
20:56:18 <catseye> oerjan: right, i basically came to that conclusion too... you can write any program of any length you want onto your tape then interpret that.
20:56:29 <elliott> Sgeo: K(x) = length of shortest program that outputs x, "kolgomorov complexity"
20:56:38 <elliott> Sgeo: in some fixed language L
20:57:18 <Sgeo> I thought the maximal complexity is when x is random
20:57:26 <elliott> oerjan: this is terribly interesting.
20:57:34 <elliott> K(x) = |x| + C when x is random
20:57:41 <elliott> the C is the length of "print this string"
20:57:55 <elliott> that's for almost all random strings
20:58:03 <elliott> of course your language could cheat or whatever for a few of them
20:58:08 -!- wareya has joined.
20:58:09 <elliott> almost all strings are incompressible
20:58:15 <elliott> is it just me or is debian.org down?
20:58:35 <Gregor> elliott: It's not down.
20:58:49 <elliott> Oops! Google Chrome could not find www.debian.org
20:58:49 <elliott> Try reloading: www. debian. org
20:58:52 <catseye> elliott, oerjan : in a sense, "print" is just the simplest interpreter there is :)
20:59:08 <elliott> catseye: interpreter for the cat language
20:59:12 <zzo38> What is quantum disco?
20:59:21 <elliott> K(x) = |x| for all x in the cat language!
20:59:33 <elliott> and every program is a quine!
21:00:22 <Sgeo> What does it mean for an output to be negative?
21:00:23 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blum%27s_speedup_theorem seems analogous
21:00:31 <elliott> Sgeo: |x| = cardinality/length of x
21:00:36 <Vorpal> ais523, wait, adanaxis only has x,y,z for aiming? That is just 3D, not 4D?
21:00:47 <elliott> or, well, it can be anything abstract really but
21:00:51 <elliott> a string is the concrete one to go for
21:00:54 <Sgeo> Oh, right, K(x) is a number
21:00:56 <ais523> Vorpal: they're directoin angles
21:00:56 <oerjan> zzo38: never heard of it
21:00:58 * Sgeo facepalms self
21:00:59 <elliott> Vorpal: right click mouse button and move left/right
21:01:09 <elliott> Sgeo: a natural number, to be precise
21:01:09 <Vorpal> ais523, how do you move yourself though?
21:01:11 <ais523> if you're aiming at something in 2D, you only need one angle to describe the direction
21:01:18 <ais523> Vorpal: w and s go forwards and backwards
21:01:21 <Sgeo> Does 0 count as natural?
21:01:29 <catseye> ... i had not considered facepalming someone *else* before now.
21:01:40 <catseye> sounds like some kind of monk martial arts move
21:01:42 * elliott puts his palm on catseye's face
21:01:47 <olsner> Sgeo: facepalm implies self, I think
21:01:48 <Vorpal> ais523, no thrust in other axises?
21:01:49 <ais523> a and d strafe horizontally; q and e can be used for the rotations that you can't easily do with the mouse
21:01:58 <elliott> catseye: surprise, we're now in a civil union according to the laws of all civilised countries!
21:02:03 <ais523> the thrust is always /forwards/, except with a and d
21:02:06 <elliott> CIVIL UNIONS: DESTROYING MARRIAGE?
21:02:08 <Vorpal> ais523, in which dimensions do q and e move
21:02:37 <Sgeo> I was facepalming *about* myself, as opposed to at someone else's stupidity
21:02:39 <ais523> to move in a particular direction, use the mouse to face in that direction (moving it for two direction axes, right-drag for third), then press w
21:02:45 <Vorpal> ais523, what about strafing vertically or <whatever you call the extra dimension>?
21:02:47 <elliott> http://www.demolinux.org/en/ecrans/version-debian-gnome.jpg
21:02:52 <ais523> and q and e rotate the current fourth dimension onto the forwards direction, IIRC
21:03:02 <ais523> hmm, no, not that, that's what rightdrag does
21:03:09 <ais523> Vorpal: rotate, then strafe
21:03:27 <ais523> (btw, the usual fourth dimension terminology is ana/kata for the extra dimension)
21:03:54 <elliott> Gregor: Have you ever used DEBIAN STABLE as your main desktop OS?
21:04:02 <elliott> Gregor: Being a Debian zealot surely you have.
21:04:06 <zzo38> ana/kata? I have heard of it before..... OK, I suppose we can use that, then.
21:04:07 <Vorpal> ais523, why those words, I thought kata was related to material arts?
21:04:11 <Gregor> Debian Stable == Debian Obsolete
21:04:17 <Gregor> I've used stable for servers.
21:04:21 <elliott> Gregor: But I thought Debian is RIGHT.
21:04:24 <ais523> Vorpal: they're Greek prefixes, IIRC
21:04:30 <Vorpal> ah, different kata then
21:04:36 <Gregor> elliott: It is, but you don't need that kind of stability for a desktop.
21:04:49 <Gregor> elliott: It's right because it gives you such awesome choices ;)
21:04:54 <elliott> Gregor: But unstable has no obviously-linked installer!
21:04:59 <elliott> Do you support SUBVERTING the design of debian.org?
21:05:04 <ais523> elliott: install stable, upgrade?
21:05:05 <elliott> Saying that its choices are not RIGHT?
21:05:14 <ais523> also, does anyone actually use Debian Testing for anything but testing Debian?
21:05:20 <ais523> it's sort-of like Unstable, except bugs persist longer
21:05:25 <elliott> ais523: every Debian user users testing
21:05:27 <Vorpal> ais523, the "read game info" link from the main menu is weird, it opens the pdf in firefox....
21:05:39 <Vorpal> sh: kfmclient: command not found
21:05:39 <Vorpal> sh: galeon: command not found
21:05:39 <Vorpal> sh: opera: command not found
21:05:39 <Vorpal> sh: mozilla: command not found
21:05:41 <Gregor> ais523: Debian Testing = the actual stable Debian
21:05:41 <elliott> ais523: stable is a dinosaur and sid breaks things
21:05:45 <Vorpal> until it tries firefox
21:05:46 <ais523> hmm, the advice I heard from a Debian user friend of mine was "always use stable or unstable"
21:05:55 <Gregor> ais523: Your Debian user friend is a retard.
21:05:57 <elliott> ais523: bear in mind that most debian users are idiots. >:)
21:06:00 <Vorpal> it tries konqueror, epiphany and netscape as well before firefox
21:06:35 <elliott> Gregor: So is your marriage triangle going to be called Grebian?
21:06:39 <Vorpal> "Weapon upgrades and ammunition are found by collecting the boxes shown below." oh god no. Not one of those games.
21:06:44 <elliott> (THAT JOKE IS INSENSITIVE, IAN AND DEB BROKE UP)
21:06:58 <elliott> (Lesson: Never mention your spouse. EVER)
21:07:02 <Vorpal> I prefer games with a complex planet-based economy for buying upgrades, rather than random boxes in the void
21:07:11 <olsner> they should've hyphenated the name or something to commemorate that
21:07:13 <Sgeo> Vorpal, Worms uses boxes...
21:07:17 <elliott> Sorry it wasn't complex enough for you.
21:07:19 <elliott> Sgeo: Worms isn't set in space.
21:07:43 <Vorpal> how would it change my statement about what I prefer
21:07:56 <elliott> Sgeo: Vorpal: both of you shut up :P
21:08:06 <catseye> welcome to my random-box-based economy
21:08:20 <olsner> or -deb+ian? depending on who left who, and which one of them (if any) sticks to the debian project
21:08:31 <elliott> [[Should I use sid on my server?
21:08:35 <elliott> olsner: deb never had anything to do with debian
21:08:45 <elliott> ian just named his distro debian because he was being a ~lovefag~
21:08:53 <Gregor> And neither of them stuck to the project :P
21:09:00 <elliott> Gregor: ian still uses debian i think
21:09:04 <elliott> and still posts stuff about it on his blog
21:09:20 <elliott> "He wrote the Debian Manifesto in 1993 while a student at Purdue University"
21:09:23 <elliott> So THAT'S why Gregor likes it!
21:09:35 <elliott> [[On joining Sun, he led Project Indiana, which he described as "taking the lesson that Linux has brought to the operating system and providing that for Solaris", making a full OpenSolaris distribution with GNOME and userland tools from GNU plus a network-based package management system.]]
21:09:52 <elliott> olsner: they divorced in 2007
21:09:59 <elliott> probably the same day he joined sun to start working on an opensolaris distro >:)
21:10:07 <elliott> "This time, I'll just call it Ian!"
21:10:16 <elliott> on emerging platforms and the power of aggregation and integration"
21:10:16 <Gregor> elliott: Ian joined sun and went all OpenSolaris-happy. I don't know what happened after he quit when Oracle bought Sun.
21:10:26 <elliott> Gregor: He blogs about emerging platforms and the power of aggregation and integration.
21:10:41 <Sgeo> What's Debra doing?
21:10:58 <catseye> aggregation and integration, together at last
21:11:14 <elliott> catseye: Aggregation + Integration = Aggregration!
21:11:16 <Gregor> catseye: I've been so tired of my unintegrated aggregate too!
21:11:38 <elliott> Integration + Aggregation = Integation!
21:11:44 <elliott> Aggregration and Integation.
21:12:06 <Sgeo> Aggregation - Integration = Diffregation
21:12:59 <elliott> Gregor: Seriously, debian.org HTTP is down.
21:13:20 <elliott> Gregor: lol freeze has been frozen
21:13:39 <Sgeo> I'm fully able to access www.debian.org
21:13:41 <zzo38> elliott: Use FTP then?
21:13:48 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
21:13:49 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Client Quit).
21:13:55 <elliott> <poisonbit> elliott, try google translate or any other proxy
21:14:37 <Sgeo> I had thoughts about that when I was a kid. Also about websites over email
21:14:41 <zzo38> elliott: No, I mean download the files you need over FTP, if they have FTP and if HTTP doesn't work.
21:14:43 <Sgeo> And websites in registry
21:14:50 <elliott> I typed http://debian.org/ into Google's Arabic -> English translator.
21:14:56 <elliott> It decided to transliterate it to حطب://إبن.عرج/.
21:15:00 <elliott> Firewood: / / son. Claudication /
21:15:08 <elliott> firewood://son.claudication/
21:17:57 <zzo38> Now you have to use the FIREWOOD protocol if the other protocols do not work
21:18:40 <zzo38> (And if it doesn't exist, you would have to invent that protocol first before it can be used.)
21:18:47 <elliott> zzo38: You have to invent it.
21:18:57 <zzo38> elliott: OK. Maybe I will.
21:19:05 <elliott> I think "son.claudication" should be some sort of representation of a path, where the words are the result of hashing some sort of data.
21:19:19 <elliott> Like, that could mean "org.debian", where debian is some integer allocated to Debian and org is the standard namespace.
21:19:47 <elliott> oerjan: heh, r.e.s. has a lot of messages on [[Talk:Kolgomorov complexity]] on Wikipedia
21:21:54 <Vorpal> ais523, I just realised that with my joystick I have enough analogue axises to make this quite a lot easier
21:22:06 <Vorpal> ais523, I mean, it got like 10 of them
21:22:26 <Vorpal> ais523, sure, some are not very usable for this purpose (think hat switch or such)
21:22:43 <catseye> why, you could fly three planes at once with such a control!
21:22:47 <Vorpal> and if that isn't enough I have 3 more in my rudder pedals
21:22:56 <Vorpal> catseye, or one harrier
21:23:32 <Vorpal> catseye, it is nice being able to control the thrust vectoring easily when you need it to land safely :P
21:24:38 <Vorpal> anyway, you need 4 for a basic plane (pitch, yaw, roll, thrust), so that doesn't give me 3 of then.
21:25:09 <elliott> Vorpal: umea (probably an o on top of one of those letters) -- how crazy/stupid are they?
21:25:18 <elliott> Umeaboy in #debian is being stupid right now, I want to know the commonality of this
21:25:28 <Vorpal> and that assumes a jet engine anyway, on many (but not all) propeller planes you had mixture and feathering controls as well
21:25:54 <Vorpal> elliott, Umeå was the -50°C place I mentioned a few days ago.
21:26:04 <elliott> his brain must have frozen then
21:26:15 <Vorpal> elliott, though, it is quite nice up there in the early summer
21:26:38 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, it is not -50 every year, it is too close to the coast for that.
21:26:58 <Vorpal> so it gets a.... ehrm. "mild" climate. Of course that is in relative terms
21:27:05 <elliott> Vorpal: can you give me the ip of cdimage.debian.org?
21:27:09 <elliott> my dns for debian.org is bust or something
21:27:20 <Vorpal> $ host cdimage.debian.org
21:27:20 <Vorpal> cdimage.debian.org is an alias for ftp.acc.umu.se.
21:27:32 <elliott> Vorpal: hmm. so they should have it in the same place.
21:27:41 <Vorpal> elliott, that might be a geodns though
21:27:48 <elliott> Vorpal: i was looking at that mirror anyway
21:27:56 <elliott> just thought that daily builds were only on the main server since i couldn't find it
21:27:59 <Vorpal> elliott, how comes, it can't be local to you
21:28:09 <elliott> Vorpal: in the UK, swedish servers get very good times
21:28:18 <pikhq> 100% CPU usage. HOORAY.
21:28:23 <Vorpal> elliott, huh, better than UK mirrors?
21:28:24 <elliott> Vorpal: probably a combination of not too close to us -- so our paths to them aren't clogged with other people
21:28:32 <elliott> Vorpal: and the fact that you guys have fast interwebs
21:28:56 <Vorpal> elliott, well, you know mirrors.kernel.org can easily max out my connection. They use geodns and they have one in Sweden
21:29:05 <Vorpal> I use that as my arch linux package mirror
21:29:23 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah i use the se.mirrors.kernel.org or whatever as my package mirror on ubuntu
21:29:24 <Vorpal> better than those that are listed as Swedish mirrors in the mirror listing
21:29:39 <elliott> mirrorservice.org in the uk also gets good speeds but the swedish ones are more consistently good
21:30:18 <Vorpal> elliott, hey, don't steal our bw. then we will be just as slow as everyone else. After all, it is only right and proper that a country with a fraction of the population of UK and a larger surface area gets a lot more bw :P
21:30:52 <Vorpal> not sure how the numbers look like when you look at the total bw
21:31:24 <elliott> Vorpal: "how the numbers look" is idiomatic
21:32:10 <Vorpal> elliott, sounds like it should be "what the numbers look like" in English?
21:32:19 <elliott> anyone know google's dns servers? >_>
21:32:24 <elliott> Vorpal: that is also valid
21:33:59 <olsner> hmm, how ... look, what ... look like, same difference in swedish really
21:34:46 <elliott> four eights and two eights two fours
21:35:47 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Connection reset by peer review).
21:35:56 -!- elliott has joined.
21:36:17 <elliott> <Bushmills> Umeaboy, what advantage would as GUI installation have for, say, a server? or a low-resource machine?
21:36:18 <elliott> <Umeaboy> Bushmills: A newly started company that wants to make every computer-installation by themselves their own way.
21:36:23 <elliott> Vorpal: swedish people are retarded.
21:37:15 <olsner> damn, looks like denmark has twice the bandwidth per capita of sweden
21:38:01 <olsner> hmm, these numbers were from 2004
21:38:17 <elliott> DAAAMNN YOUUU DENNMAAAARRRKKK
21:38:27 * elliott installs Debian testing in a VM
21:39:00 <elliott> Vorpal: lol, a guy in #debian already has him on ignore from mandriva channels
21:39:05 <elliott> (he said he uses mandriva too)
21:39:16 <elliott> Umea: Sweden's village of idiots!
21:39:31 <elliott> (They spell it Umea there because they can't type the o thing.)
21:39:44 <elliott> for the amount of stuff it can do
21:40:17 <Vorpal> elliott, err, end of Swedish upper qwerty row: uiopå
21:40:28 <Vorpal> that joke fails so horribly thus
21:40:30 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, they're retarded, you see
21:40:37 <elliott> they don't know what that key does
21:40:46 <elliott> in school they're taught the alphabet
21:40:56 <elliott> conveniently, that's Umea backwards
21:40:59 <elliott> which is how it got its name
21:41:10 * Sgeo has a low resource machine that he wants a GUI install on
21:41:12 <Vorpal> you are just too far fetched to be funny
21:41:21 <elliott> Vorpal: and you quote Monty Python?
21:41:28 <Sgeo> Let me clarify: My previous statement is NOT in support of Umeaboy
21:41:40 <elliott> Sgeo: you can't use a text installer? seriously?
21:41:57 <Sgeo> ..Oh, _GUI Installer_ is the question?
21:42:07 <Sgeo> I thought it was "To install X and related stuff, or not"
21:42:13 <elliott> he just downloaded mini.iso
21:42:15 <elliott> which is the tiny tiny ISO
21:42:19 <elliott> which of course only has a textual install.
21:42:25 <elliott> the debian graphical installer is very nice.
21:43:02 <Sgeo> Can I set up Debian to be suitable for ancient laptop? I guess I'd be choosing packages myself
21:43:32 <elliott> debian will run on just about anything.
21:43:42 <Vorpal> ais523, I found adanaxis near impossible and a bit too fast paced to play
21:43:45 <elliott> you could be adventurous and try ~NETBSD~
21:43:53 <Vorpal> ais523, even on easy the AI is very very good
21:44:00 <Sgeo> I want it to be easy to use
21:44:23 <Sgeo> I have not the foggiest idea
21:44:30 <Sgeo> Is NetBSD even supported?
21:44:31 <ais523> Vorpal: get used to strafing
21:44:38 <elliott> it powers a good portion of the internet.
21:44:38 <ais523> the AI is good, but its weapons aren't particularly good
21:44:45 <Gregor> Sgeo: Of course it runs NetBSD.
21:44:47 <ais523> so if you spend a lot of time dodging, they mostly can't hit you
21:44:51 <catseye> put X and Gnome Desktop and whatever on it and there you go, easy to use
21:44:52 <ais523> also, your weapons have a /very/ long range
21:44:56 <elliott> Sgeo: it's more supported than Linux.
21:44:56 <Vorpal> ais523, hm, how do you strafe in the 4th dimension?
21:45:02 <elliott> i'll even be so bold to say
21:45:07 <Vorpal> ais523, is it q + a and d then?
21:45:09 <ais523> Vorpal: who cares; you can dodge in any direction you like
21:45:16 <catseye> elliott: sure, what the hell
21:45:19 <ais523> just use a and d to strafe, and the mouse to change which directions those mean
21:45:27 <Vorpal> ais523, yes that isn't the issue as much as the AI dodging me
21:45:39 <ais523> your weapons are homing; as long as you're locked on when you fire, you won't be dodged
21:45:40 -!- Sgeo has left (?).
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21:45:47 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:45:47 <ais523> you can tell you're locked on because the fire cursor changes
21:45:57 <Sgeo> Now that I have a notebook, Ancient Laptop doesn
21:45:58 <Vorpal> ais523, really? that pdf didn't agree on that completely
21:46:00 <ais523> and potentially hit from a very long distance, as long as you aim well enough to get the lock
21:46:03 <Sgeo> doesn't seem cute anymore
21:46:04 <ais523> Vorpal: it depends on which weapon you use
21:46:11 <ais523> the machine gun doesn't, for instance, so only really works at short range
21:46:14 <ais523> but the basic weapon homes just fine
21:46:18 <Vorpal> ais523, I don't know, I never seen any weapon boxes
21:46:30 <Vorpal> ais523, so I haven't been able to pick any up
21:47:45 <catseye> weapon boxes considered harmful
21:48:02 <ais523> you don't get weapon boxes on the first few levels
21:48:07 <ais523> shield and health boxes come up earlier
21:48:20 <Sgeo> Is there a way to coerce Win98 to understand WiFi USB thingies?
21:48:23 <Vorpal> ais523, I don't seem to have more than the green weapon?
21:48:26 <Sgeo> That might be the best
21:48:57 <elliott> only with a zombie raccoon
21:49:01 <ais523> Vorpal: green just means you're misaiming it
21:49:13 <ais523> the weapons are all white, but they go green if they go offcourse into the fourth dimension
21:49:16 <Vorpal> ais523, no I meant in the lower right corner
21:49:18 <elliott> quick, someone name my Debian VM
21:49:25 <ais523> oh, that's always green no matter what weapon you're using
21:50:04 <Vorpal> ais523, manual says I'm using the "Plasma Spitter"
21:50:07 <Vorpal> by matching up the image
21:50:42 <Vorpal> ais523, what about the blue mode? no chance to hit then?
21:51:21 <ais523> Vorpal: blue and red are the lock-on mode
21:51:29 <ais523> hold down the mouse button, and eventually you'll blow up what you're aiming at
21:51:30 <Sgeo> Puppy Linux should work, right?
21:51:58 <catseye> Sgeo: just lay down newspaper first
21:52:09 <elliott> i was thinking matryoshka for the nestedness
21:52:14 <Vorpal> ais523, sometimes it doesn't want to fire even when blue or red
21:52:24 <Vorpal> ais523, and no it isn't empty ammo
21:52:29 <Vorpal> I checked that of course
21:52:38 <Vorpal> ais523, mostly when the distance is long
21:52:40 <ais523> it fires no matter what sort of crosshairs you have
21:52:49 <ais523> but the bullets take a while to actually hit
21:52:57 <ais523> it's not an instant-hit weapon like the laser
21:53:58 <elliott> any suggestions other than marzipan?
21:54:14 <Vorpal> ais523, I never heard the gun sound or saw any bullets leaving
21:54:22 <Vorpal> ais523, surely that means "not fired"
21:54:34 <catseye> Dear Racket installer for Windows, you are the only remaining Windows installer that creates one of the "backdrop" windows to block out the rest of the screen. Congratulations on your anachronismus. Sincerely, C.
21:54:36 <ais523> sure you aren't muddling ammo and health?
21:54:41 <ais523> the ammo regenerates over time, health doesn't
21:54:56 <Vorpal> ais523, pretty sure yes
21:55:25 <ais523> in that case, I'm not sure
21:55:36 <elliott> catseye: Are you seriously just going to use windows?
21:57:23 <elliott> ais523: name my box, please, just to save me from the marzipan
21:57:36 <ais523> elliott: you want a hostname?
21:57:51 <elliott> ais523: well, yes. for my Debian testing installation inside a VM
21:58:02 <ais523> I don't see what's wrong with marzipan in that case...
21:58:11 <elliott> ais523: forget I even said marzipan :P
21:58:16 <ais523> or pick a random word from Wiktionary
21:58:24 <ais523> it's not like it's important, for a hostname in a VM, which can be changed later
21:58:36 <elliott> it's a pain to change though
21:58:41 <ais523> Wiktionary says "insinuates", btw
21:58:55 <elliott> ais523: a non-noun/adjective as a hostname?
21:59:06 <ais523> you could change the part of speech easily enough
21:59:10 <ais523> "insinuation" or whatever
22:01:29 <Sgeo> Would NetBSD be easy to use for someone not used to using computers?
22:01:37 <elliott> when you translate to latin in google translate
22:02:01 <ais523> Sgeo: it'd be much like, say, Nexenta
22:02:03 <elliott> Sgeo: maybe if you stuck gnome on it and taught them how to use it carefully with a strong understanding of HCI and how people interact with computers
22:02:18 * ais523 tries to give a useless question (that's missing far too much context to be useful) a useless answer
22:02:21 <elliott> Sgeo: if you don't have such an understanding, then you can't help them.
22:02:33 <elliott> and if you give them a computer you'll get 1,000,000,000,000 questions a day
22:03:59 <olsner> and that's a million million questions!
22:04:21 <fizzie> It's the million dollar question.
22:05:12 <olsner> a million dollars each? that's a lot of dollars
22:05:43 <elliott> That's as much as four tens.
22:06:14 <elliott> fizzie: save me from the marzipan
22:07:07 <oerjan> <ais523> the ammo regenerates over time, health doesn't <-- way to revert reality :D
22:07:31 <ais523> really, HP are an abstraction
22:09:31 <fizzie> elliott: Call it debian_testing_in_a_vm. That's a really imaginative name.
22:09:43 <elliott> catseye: that's what Gregor probably calls his machines
22:09:55 * oerjan averts overtly answering
22:10:27 <Gregor> elliott: Nope, my machines are of the form G[r]<machine-type>gor
22:10:32 <catseye> elliott: call it Ipsekhiphtl
22:11:30 <Gregor> machine-type is the CLASS of machine, not the ARCHITECTURE.
22:11:36 <Gregor> e.g. gdeskgor, glapgor
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22:12:54 <elliott> Inexplicable things: Debian still defaults to ext3.
22:13:04 <ais523> is ext4 properly tested yet?
22:13:11 <elliott> ais523: it's the default in Ubuntu
22:13:14 <elliott> and has been for a few releases
22:13:18 <Gregor> But it doesn't taste like butterflies.
22:13:23 <ais523> yep, but Ubuntu changed the default to ext4 before it was working properly
22:13:30 <ais523> which is, I suppose, rather typical for Ubuntu...
22:13:31 <elliott> "On 15 January 2010, Google announced that it would upgrade its storage infrastructure from ext2 to ext4."
22:13:39 <ais523> I wasn't sure if it had been fixed since
22:13:41 <elliott> Dear God is it stable if Google are switching to it.
22:13:46 <elliott> catseye: too late, marzipan'd
22:13:56 <elliott> Yet even the testing installer defaults to ext4.
22:13:57 <ais523> catseye: I like the concept of facepalming someone else, btw
22:15:02 <ais523> elliott: not relatime?
22:15:14 <elliott> atime is basically useless
22:15:19 <elliott> no reason not to just disable it
22:15:34 <ais523> IIRC, relatime disables setting it in all situations except the ones that people actually occasionally use
22:16:05 -!- augur has joined.
22:16:06 <elliott> afaik nobody actually uses it even then
22:16:42 <Sgeo> http://i.imgur.com/5HoE6.png
22:16:45 <ais523> atime is hilariously useless on Windows, btw
22:16:51 <Sgeo> .....I think my code tends to look like that
22:16:55 <ais523> because in order to display it, it access the file
22:16:56 <olsner> oh, adanaxis really failed with multiple monitors
22:16:59 <ais523> so it always shows the current time
22:17:10 <elliott> Sgeo: it's very obvious that the lines about ugly code
22:17:22 <elliott> the highlighted line, and the "(WTF IS READABILITY???)" line
22:17:32 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:17:34 <elliott> the first because of the different capitalisation and obvious "i'm a virgin" insult
22:17:36 <elliott> the second for the same reason
22:17:39 <elliott> also, the code isn't actually that unreadable
22:17:43 -!- augur has joined.
22:17:55 <Sgeo> Ok. Because I can imagine my code looking a bit like that
22:17:58 <elliott> (although another image suggests it has an XSS in it that the developer acknowledged in a comment :) )
22:18:41 <elliott> Namesys is now officially "suspended" as a corporation
22:18:55 <elliott> [[Their website has not been accessible since November 2007. Edward Shishkin, a Namesys employee, was quoted in a January 2008 CNET article as saying that "commercial activity of Namesys has stopped".[3]]]
22:21:22 <Sgeo> elliott, that's not an XSS
22:21:43 <Sgeo> Well, I suppose SQL Injection could be used for that for some weird reason
22:21:57 <Sgeo> Well, not ... /me forgot the exact definition of XSS
22:22:04 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:22:24 <Sgeo> I know it involves putting malicious stuff in the page that someone else sees and seems to come from a trusted source
22:22:27 <Sgeo> Stealing cookies etc.
22:22:40 <Sgeo> But would such a thing inserted via SQL Injection count?
22:22:50 <Sgeo> It wouldn't really be "cross-site"
22:22:54 -!- wareya has joined.
22:28:54 <fizzie> Sgeo: In addition to the (probable) sql injection bit, it also uses "state" directly as part of the generated page; you can stick a script in there, that's something that would be considered XSSy, I would think.
22:29:55 <Vorpal> elliott, ais523: I did nm -C on adanaxis... and looked for the longest prototype. It is 1281 chars long!
22:30:48 <Vorpal> that is some templately thing from libstdc++
22:31:46 <Vorpal> hm it isn't the longest one when you look at the mangled name for it
22:33:17 <Vorpal> ah yeah, the standard types have shorthands in iirc
22:39:59 <catseye> so, um. looks like i can't download the JDK without a user account, now?
22:40:20 <catseye> or is it just that oracle mucked up the site?
22:44:50 -!- catseye has quit (Quit: leaving).
22:46:09 <Vorpal> why not just use openjdk?
22:46:42 <elliott> Gregor: Explain this monstrosity: http://imgur.com/JWR4K.png
22:48:10 <Gregor> elliott: Somewhere I have a screenshot of OpenSolaris' install where it lets you select "no language"
22:48:26 <elliott> Gregor: I actually have on fucking idea which option to select.
22:48:34 <elliott> It's totally not my problem distro. I didn't even select the advanced install.
22:48:39 <elliott> Do whatever you feel's best, man.
22:48:42 <ais523> Gregor: what does that correspond to? C locale?
22:48:44 <Gregor> Remember, ignoring it is always the right option.
22:48:57 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah, but, I'm not convinced it's selected a UK layout.
22:49:08 <ais523> it might be better expressed as "program default language (usually English)"
22:49:11 <Gregor> Then select a keymap from the full list.
22:49:32 <Gregor> ais523: This was what to set $LANG to by default, so that doesn't QUITE make sense.
22:49:47 <ais523> set it, by default, to the default
22:49:51 <ais523> that makes sense, doesn't it?
22:50:10 <elliott> I just wouldn't even offer an option to use C as $LANG.
22:50:18 <elliott> Is that *ever* a good idea for a system-wide setting?
22:50:36 <Vorpal> elliott, is that the debian installer?
22:50:44 <oerjan> <Gregor> elliott: Somewhere I have a screenshot of OpenSolaris' install where it lets you select "no language" <-- i now imagine an OS where all messages are given as interpretive dance videos
22:50:44 <elliott> Vorpal: but it's the nightly build
22:50:45 <Vorpal> elliott, for debian linux?
22:50:48 <elliott> so ic an forgive the unusability
22:50:50 <Vorpal> elliott, or debian/hurd?
22:50:59 <Vorpal> elliott, then "wtf" :P
22:51:02 <elliott> but no way does it have a graphical install
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22:51:10 <elliott> Vorpal: well it's a nightly build of the installer
22:51:18 <Vorpal> elliott, could be debian/somebsd
22:51:35 <Vorpal> elliott, select from full list probably
22:51:53 <Vorpal> elliott, since the "select keymap from arch list" is missing there
22:52:05 <Vorpal> elliott, well if you have US international it probably works
22:52:19 <elliott> also, i set United Kingdom as my location before, so
22:52:22 <Vorpal> elliott, thought that was some header
22:52:59 <Vorpal> elliott, the selection played tricks on the apparent colour of the first element
22:53:03 <elliott> I think debian-installer is the only program that pulls off using the exact same interface on the console and graphically.
22:53:03 -!- wareya has joined.
22:53:06 <Vorpal> elliott, it looked like the background is darker
22:53:09 <elliott> Surprisingly it's not hideous.
22:53:15 <Vorpal> elliott, optical illusion I think
22:53:29 <elliott> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/309724/optical/same-color-illusion.png
22:53:30 <Vorpal> elliott, but only at a specific distance from the screen
22:53:39 <elliott> possibly the most striking optical illusion of all
22:53:57 <elliott> and still impossible to believe without verifying
22:53:58 <Vorpal> elliott, yes, why dropbox?
22:54:12 <elliott> No, Debian, I don't want the graphical desktop environment.
22:55:09 <elliott> <roOoty> btw, i don't want to have that clonky large font size look and fell in the terminal, i want the ubuntu one! how can i achieve it?
22:55:10 <elliott> <jpinx-eeepc> roOoty: just get logged in first
22:55:10 <elliott> <roOoty> jpinx-eeepc: yes, but i want to know if it is worht all the logging in or if it would be better to stick with ubuntu or something :)
22:55:12 <elliott> i have learned something today
22:55:16 <elliott> #debian makes me want to stab people
22:55:29 <Gregor> elliott: btw, the text install asks that question in a very different way, and I never use the graphical installer, which is why I have no answer :P
22:55:30 <elliott> specifically, any Ubuntu or Mandriva user who comes into #debian will then proceed to be maximally imbecilic
22:55:43 <oerjan> elliott: i thought everywhere did that to you
22:55:44 <elliott> Gregor: No, no, there's the same questions in both.
22:55:50 <elliott> Gregor: This will just be a nightly-build issue/thing.
22:55:55 <elliott> Gregor: Or perhaps a NEW INSTALLER FEATURE
22:56:03 <elliott> i like most people in #esoteric!
22:56:11 <elliott> even Vorpal i wouldn't stab. probably.
22:56:18 <elliott> Gregor: I'd already told it my location, so.
22:57:03 <Vorpal> elliott, you have in the past iirc
22:57:18 <Vorpal> elliott, oh, over irc I meatn
22:57:23 <elliott> I am truley sorry for your lots.
22:57:42 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:58:31 <elliott> Wait. It surely can't have netinstalled already.
22:58:40 <elliott> I guess it installed all the packages before asking that silly question.
22:59:06 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:59:16 <Vorpal> elliott, did that other elliott use the nick "elliott" or ?
22:59:18 <Sgeo> " The malicious spreadsheet would find it very hard to get access to ".ssh": why would the user choose ".ssh" if Gnumeric opened a powerbox out of the blue without a good reason?"
22:59:25 <elliott> Vorpal: elliottcable and ec
22:59:25 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm upgrading the nick normalising regexp
22:59:26 <Sgeo> Because users are clueless
22:59:31 <Vorpal> elliott, ah no collision then
22:59:41 <Sgeo> If the dodgy spreadsheet can pop up a dialog claiming to go to this or that file...
22:59:44 <elliott> wow! I think Debian has...
22:59:47 -!- wareya has joined.
22:59:51 <elliott> I think Debian automatically installed the VirtualBox drivers.
23:00:03 <elliott> I appear to have mouse integration *on the console*.
23:00:09 <elliott> Gregor: Hey, how old is that new console font?
23:00:16 <elliott> The thin-ish one with the fancy g.
23:00:21 <ais523> elliott: is this stable, unstable, or testing?
23:00:26 <elliott> And the strangely short p.
23:00:31 <elliott> ais523: aka squeeze right now
23:00:33 <Gregor> elliott: On a scale from one to ten, I have no fucking clue.
23:00:36 <Sgeo> "A piece of text that can be displayed in the powerbox window to describe why the application wants to be granted some authority.
23:00:37 <elliott> which is frozen, and will become the stable release in like 349587345 years
23:00:40 <Sgeo> That makes it even easier
23:01:02 <ais523> this explains why they removed C-INTERCAL, at least
23:01:06 <elliott> ais523: You should use testing when it's thawed, too...
23:01:21 <ais523> it made sense, I was just wondering "why then"
23:01:26 <ais523> no, I'm not bitter, I agree with the decision
23:02:31 <Vorpal> ais523, why did they remove it?
23:03:45 -!- catseye has joined.
23:03:49 <Sgeo> Are there any easy-to-use distros that use Plash by default? If not, there should be.
23:04:37 <elliott> I hate the part where things don't use sudo by default.
23:04:43 <elliott> Gregor: You use sudo, right? See, that's a bad thing about Debian.
23:04:48 <elliott> It doesn't use sudo by default because it's run by nazis.
23:05:10 <pikhq> Sgeo: You straight-up can't use it on anything but Debian (or Debian-based).
23:05:24 <pikhq> elliott: Debian didn't automatically install the VirtualBox drivers for *me*.
23:05:39 <pikhq> Sgeo: Because Plash does fucking *crazy* shit that's Debian-specific.
23:05:40 <Gregor> pikhq: I'm sure with sufficient hackery you COULD use it on other distros, but it wouldn't be fun.
23:05:44 <elliott> pikhq: I may be hallucinating, but VirtualBox definitely told me it saw sum of dat mouse integration support. On the *console*.
23:05:53 <pikhq> elliott: Holy fuck that's awesome.
23:05:56 <Vorpal> elliott: select count(*) from irc.logs_na where type = 1 and nick = 'elliott' and body like 'stabs %'; yields 24. Apart from one case of stabbing RMS and one case of stabbing your own eye (using a rake), they were all nicks in the channel at that point of time.
23:06:07 <elliott> i received root's mail just there
23:06:08 <pikhq> elliott: Which Debian and which install media?
23:06:10 <Vorpal> elliott, the first one happened one year and two days ago
23:06:11 <elliott> (sudo warning that i'm not in sudoers)
23:06:14 <Sgeo> Why does it do Debian specific stuff?
23:06:19 <elliott> and this is after i rebooted
23:06:26 <pikhq> elliott: Same; didn't see that after rebooting.
23:06:30 <elliott> "one case of stabbing your own eye (using a rake)"
23:06:45 <Vorpal> elliott, sorry, the first one happened in 2008
23:06:50 <Sgeo> Nono, he stabbed the RAKE
23:07:01 <elliott> Sgeo: No, that was catseye.
23:07:42 <Vorpal> Sgeo, the body of the CTCP action was "stabs his eyes out with a rake"
23:08:05 <Vorpal> the UTC-normalised timestamp is "2008-08-09 16:02:45" if anyone cares
23:08:06 <elliott> ais523: what happened to Gobuntu?
23:08:18 <ais523> elliott: I don't know, I wasn't keeping track
23:08:27 <elliott> it appears to have spontaneously ceased to exist before ever being released
23:08:37 <ais523> perhaps they decided they were being outcompeted by Debian or something
23:08:44 <catseye> OK! Now for the *experiment*
23:09:22 <Sgeo> So, some thingy based off of Ubuntu, forked and pushed with Plash preconfigured
23:09:36 <elliott> Basing things on Ubuntu: the best way to quickly show you have no idea what anything.
23:09:48 <Sgeo> Base it on Debian, then
23:09:50 <Vorpal> elliott, what was gobuntu?
23:09:57 <elliott> Vorpal: http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/taking-freedom-further
23:10:06 <elliott> I could explain it to you, but that comic does it perfectly well, and funnier.
23:10:22 <Sgeo> Plash wants Debian. I want easy-to-use
23:10:30 <elliott> Sgeo has never used Debian. Or Plash.
23:11:04 <elliott> It is obscene how many drivers come with X.org on Debian.
23:11:18 <Sgeo> elliott, true...
23:11:30 <Vorpal> elliott, ever looked how many are installed on ubuntu?
23:11:37 <elliott> Vorpal: I think it is best for my sanity that I do not.
23:11:38 <Vorpal> elliott, a shitload as well
23:12:01 <catseye> Sgeo: what OSes have you used?
23:12:05 <Vorpal> elliott, about 20 video drivers and 10 or so input drivers
23:12:31 <Vorpal> elliott, that is, number of separate packages
23:12:32 <oerjan> <elliott> Gregor is eating nerds. <-- more filling than babies, i assume
23:12:36 <Vorpal> elliott, not number of supported chipsets
23:12:39 <elliott> Do not put the nerd in the mouth.
23:12:41 <Sgeo> Windows, um, you want a list of Linux distros? Ubuntu, Freespire
23:12:41 <Vorpal> which would be way higher
23:12:53 <catseye> oerjan: unless they are baby nerds. or nerd babies?
23:13:16 <Vorpal> elliott, why are you installing debian?
23:13:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, why not netbsd!?
23:13:37 <Vorpal> it is soooooo much better isn't it
23:13:39 <elliott> Vorpal: NetBSD hates my VMs!
23:13:46 <elliott> With QEMU there's no networking, far as I can tell.
23:13:51 <elliott> With VirtualBox it *segfaults* trying to boot up.
23:13:57 <olsner> so kitten will be a debian fork then? great...
23:14:03 <Sgeo> Freespire is dead?
23:14:17 <oerjan> catseye: can you detect nerdiness in babies?
23:14:19 <elliott> Sgeo has like the worst taste in everything.
23:14:31 <elliott> olsner: I've only installed Debian to do some LeanDE mockups.
23:14:31 <Vorpal> Sgeo, freespire? what, is that like taking the shitty linspire and removing everything that made it different?
23:14:52 <elliott> olsner: (LeanDE = a few pieces of software + configurations for them, constituting a desktop environment that sucks ever so slightly less.)
23:15:03 <Sgeo> Hey, there was a Linux distro that I hated once
23:15:07 <Sgeo> Linux XP, iirc
23:15:09 <elliott> Vorpal: The only good thing about the Linspire folks is that they used Haskell for a lot of their system software.
23:15:18 <Vorpal> elliott, that is actually nice
23:15:46 <Sgeo> Kept asking me for money. Looked like crap. Don't remember if it behaved like crap
23:15:49 <elliott> heh, Debian's default X11 configuration no longer uses twm
23:15:53 <elliott> it's just a gigantic, white-on-black xterm
23:15:56 <elliott> covering the entire screen
23:15:57 <Vorpal> elliott, hm would it be a good idea to switch to writing security sensitive software in haskell? Such as su and sudo.
23:16:12 <elliott> Vorpal: probably not. because you have to trust GHC
23:16:21 <Vorpal> elliott, ah good point
23:16:25 <Vorpal> elliott, you want a much smaller runtime
23:16:27 <elliott> you want to get the password
23:16:31 <elliott> and then GET RID OF IT IMMEDIATELY
23:16:37 <elliott> you can do that in haskell by using pointers and stuff but
23:16:38 <Vorpal> elliott, very good point
23:16:46 <elliott> of course there could be a nice abstraction for that but there isn't one yet
23:16:56 <elliott> so as it stands, no, i wouldn't trust haskell with such things
23:17:01 <elliott> utilities and package managers though, sure
23:17:01 <Vorpal> elliott, you want to mlock() the password too
23:17:23 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:17:26 <Vorpal> elliott, the issue is trusting C with this....
23:17:41 <elliott> Vorpal: well C itself is perfectly trustable, it's the C coding itself
23:17:49 <catseye> potentially you could hash it as it comes in and discard each character after it's hashed. ha
23:17:56 <olsner> in C, it would probably be simple enough that you can read it and determine that it looks safe :)
23:17:57 <elliott> Vorpal: and I bloody hope sudo's password handling code is careful
23:18:15 <elliott> hahahaahahahahahahahahahahaa
23:18:19 <elliott> Ahahahahaahahahahahahahaaaaaaaa
23:18:53 <olsner> ... and from that day, elliott spoke only in combinations of 'a' and 'h'
23:19:03 <Vorpal> elliott, hm "* tusho stabs ais523's eyes out", not very nice
23:19:16 <zzo38> catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream
23:19:26 <elliott> `addquote <zzo38> catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream
23:19:32 <elliott> Vorpal: HE PROBABLY DESERVED IT
23:20:01 <Gregor> Vorpal, elliott: The real question is why su and friends aren't compiled with compcert :P
23:20:08 <Vorpal> elliott, "* ehird stabs oerjan repeatedly with the Ancient Staff of http://www.google.com/chrome"
23:20:11 <zzo38> Does `addquote still work?
23:20:13 <Vorpal> that is quite absurd XD
23:20:27 <elliott> Gregor: compcert only compiles to ppc :P
23:20:37 <elliott> Vorpal: i believe he mentioned using IE
23:20:43 <Gregor> elliott: Nope, it supports x86 now.
23:20:45 <elliott> Gregor: We could use qemu.
23:20:47 <elliott> Gregor: To run the ppc code.
23:21:06 <elliott> Vorpal: formally verified C compiler
23:21:17 <elliott> Gregor: So you like compcert then. So I guess you like academic, purely functional, sub-TC languages.
23:21:28 -!- calamari has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
23:21:29 <elliott> Vorpal: because you can't trust gcc and friends to compile code correctly.
23:21:32 <elliott> You can trust compcert in this way.
23:21:46 <olsner> "[09/2010] Version 1.8 of the Compcert C compiler is available. It includes [..] a new port generating x86-32 bits code"
23:22:06 <elliott> I was wrong, the xterm doesn't cover the screen
23:22:08 <Vorpal> elliott, well... that depends on the reasoning about x86 code being correct
23:22:10 <elliott> it's just that the screen is black, too
23:22:16 <elliott> Vorpal: it's formally verified. with Coq.
23:22:40 <elliott> oh, compcert is actually programmed in Caml
23:22:42 <Vorpal> elliott, yes, but that means whoever told coq about what the asm did had better not typo :P
23:22:45 <olsner> oh, have they removed the insanely ugly checkerboard pattern in X?
23:22:57 -!- EgoBot has joined.
23:22:58 <elliott> Vorpal: i don't think you quite understand
23:22:59 -!- HackEgo has joined.
23:23:06 <Gregor> elliott: You have no faculty to understand that ":P" means "I am not being serious here!"
23:23:10 <elliott> `addquote <zzo38> catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream
23:23:24 <elliott> Gregor: You have clearly never conversed with Vorpal before.
23:23:39 <zzo38> O, that must be why it didn't work.
23:23:49 <elliott> hmm, how does stuff set the default X11 resolution in this bright new xorg.conf-less age?
23:23:54 <Gregor> zzo38: Thanks for pointing out that it was down.
23:23:58 <Vorpal> elliott, ";P" means "not being serious". ":P" means either that or "hah, take that"
23:24:03 <Vorpal> at least when I use them
23:24:27 <elliott> <elliott> hmm, how does stuff set the default X11 resolution in this bright new xorg.conf-less age?
23:24:27 <catseye> I *can* burn DVDs under Windows.
23:24:30 <zzo38> And yet it still seems slow?
23:24:37 <elliott> catseye: NetBSD. Burn. Go.
23:24:50 <Vorpal> elliott, gnome-monitor-settings or something ;P
23:24:56 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, what do *they* do?
23:24:59 <pikhq> elliott: Whaddya mean, "stuff"?
23:25:01 <Gregor> zzo38: It always takes a long time the first time.
23:25:05 <Vorpal> elliott, call xrandr maybe?
23:25:10 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, that. MAAAGIIIC
23:25:16 <elliott> Vorpal: What, and have X11 switch to a bad resolution even beforehand?
23:25:27 <Vorpal> elliott, oh that. Magic
23:25:42 <pikhq> elliott: I'm pretty sure that you create an xorg.conf.
23:25:52 <Vorpal> elliott, you are asking about deep black magic.
23:25:56 <Vorpal> elliott, what do you expect.
23:26:07 <Sgeo> So, what's my epic misunderstanding about Plash?
23:26:15 <elliott> Apparently to X11, white means "another kind of checkerboard".
23:26:31 <elliott> I just used -fg instead of -solid.
23:26:49 <zzo38> Gregor: What does it have to do, make a telephone call? Copy an entire hard drive? Request permission from a million servers? Make slow magic spell?
23:27:01 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't think anyone except a handful of select initiates that passed the rite of being X developers know how you set the defaults any more
23:27:03 <elliott> Gregor: It is totally broken my friend.
23:27:41 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't think there's a single person left in the world who likes X11 now.
23:28:05 <HackEgo> 244|<zzo38> catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream
23:28:40 <pikhq> Not even the X11 devs.
23:29:04 <Vorpal> elliott, http://sprunge.us/gKWJ
23:29:27 <Sgeo> I have never stabs anyone1
23:29:42 <elliott> Minimalist xorg.conf = contradiction
23:29:55 <Sgeo> Is type=1 /me?
23:30:05 <Vorpal> Sgeo, yes, and you fail at sql syntax too
23:30:14 <Sgeo> That would make sense, especially since there can't be text at the beginning
23:30:19 <Sgeo> Other than stabs
23:30:24 <catseye> all options for accessing linux parts from windows vista seem a bit unwholesome, so I'm going to boot into Ubuntu and copy to here instead
23:30:45 * Sgeo stabs procrastinatory tiredness
23:30:49 <elliott> pikhq: AARGH. It seems that what most things do is just *make gdm/whatever run xrandr -s*.
23:30:58 <Vorpal> elliott, oh and postgresql is way faster than sqlite at queries
23:31:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, you might find that useful to know as well
23:31:24 <zzo38> Once HackEgo started working, now it works faster, it is no longer as slowly.
23:31:31 <Sgeo> So it's shift-click that's the annoying fucking prick
23:31:32 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
23:31:41 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Client Quit).
23:32:18 -!- catseye has quit (Quit: staaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaab.).
23:32:27 <Sgeo> Oh... I think I just remembered why I generally gon't get IRC stabby
23:33:37 <zzo38> I tried changing things in .fmt files for TeX, to see what happens.
23:34:28 <elliott> http://www.auto-west.blogspot.com – It over driven with steam vehicles, was thought already in XVII in. Priest from Flanders, Ferdinand Verbiest, such driven with steam vehicle had in 1678 allegedly to introduce Chinese emperor, however there are no no proofs on this. Therefore it for first constructor of car recognise Nicolas – Joseph Cugnot which presented in 1769. Next important period such car in history of car are summer about 1870. Sieg
23:34:28 <elliott> fried Marcus constructed first car driven with petrol then. It was can not be sure who first engine about burning constructed internal. It recognise that this made almost simultaneously several German engineers, independently from me. Karl Benz constructed in 1885 first car in Mannheim, patent soon later received and he in 1888 began production. Gottlieb Daimler together with from Wilhelmem Maybachem in 1889 in Stuttgarcie designed acting on simi
23:34:39 <zzo38> Including making category codes that are not in range, and making a macro with expansion that has unbalanced {}
23:35:26 <Vorpal> <elliott> http://www.auto-west.blogspot.com – [...] <-- url fail
23:35:33 <Vorpal> "Sorry, the blog you were looking for does not exist. However, the name auto-west is available to register! "
23:36:03 <Vorpal> elliott, where did you find that
23:36:11 <elliott> http://tuxicity.wordpress.com/2006/12/02/configure-your-resolution-in-ubuntu-and-debian/
23:36:58 <Vorpal> elliott, for me it automagically uses best resolution
23:37:18 <oerjan> <HackEgo> 244| [...] <-- that took _five_ minutes?
23:37:19 <elliott> here it chooses one that gives me *scrollbars* in the vm window
23:37:19 <Vorpal> elliott, oh good question
23:37:29 <elliott> i could just X -configure but blergh
23:37:50 <Vorpal> oerjan, the VM is overloaded I think
23:37:50 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
23:38:15 <Vorpal> Gregor, why is codu.org timing out?
23:38:37 <Gregor> Vorpal: Trac or everything else?
23:38:52 <Vorpal> Gregor, the repo listed in `help
23:39:50 <Gregor> Yeah, lots of things have been going weird recently :(
23:40:03 <Vorpal> Gregor, the metadata in http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/dbc0ae026888/quotes/quote.db looks outdated
23:40:10 <Vorpal> it was changed more recently than that
23:40:12 <Vorpal> `run stat quotes/quote.db
23:40:36 <Vorpal> Gregor, check top, is it overloaded?
23:40:46 <elliott> pikhq: What is XFCE's official display manager?
23:40:47 <Gregor> Vorpal: Right now it most certainly is, I'm poking at it and doing shit :P
23:40:50 <Vorpal> Gregor, if not, then your xen host is overloaded and you need to change
23:40:51 <HackEgo> File: `quotes/quote.db' \ Size: 28672Blocks: 56 IO Block: 4096 regular file \ Device: ca01h/51713d Inode: 1551941 Links: 1 \ Access: (0644/-rw-r--r--) Uid: ( 5000/ UNKNOWN) Gid: ( 0/ UNKNOWN) \ Access: 2010-10-17 22:40:08.000000000 +0000 \ Modify: 2010-10-17 22:40:08.000000000 +0000 \ Change:
23:41:16 <Vorpal> `run file quotes/quote.db
23:41:22 <HackEgo> quotes/quote.db: SQLite 3.x database
23:41:28 <Vorpal> `run du -sh quotes/quote.db
23:41:39 <Vorpal> `run sqlite3 quotes/quote.db VACUUM
23:41:47 <Vorpal> `run du -sh quotes/quote.db
23:41:49 <elliott> pikhq: Okay: if XFCE released a LiveCD, what display manager would it use?
23:42:16 <elliott> Vorpal: Or anything, as far as you know :P
23:43:00 * Gregor proceeds to aptitude full-upgrade Codu as if that's a solution.
23:43:00 <Vorpal> elliott, was that the command?
23:43:12 <Vorpal> elliott, your quote adding seems like it didn't get registered
23:43:20 <Vorpal> elliott, which is why I tested something on the db
23:43:22 <HackEgo> 243|<fungot> ais523: my nose feels like a bad heuristic
23:43:38 <Vorpal> Gregor, why did "<HackEgo> 244|<zzo38> catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream" never get registered
23:43:38 <elliott> Gregor: full-upgrade. ANOTHER command?
23:43:57 <Gregor> elliott: It's equivalent to dist-upgrade.
23:44:05 <elliott> Gregor: i thought safe-upgrade was thet hing.
23:44:18 <elliott> `addquote <zzo38> catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream
23:44:18 <Gregor> Vorpal: Presumably it failed to merge.
23:44:24 <olsner> upgrade was unsafe, safe-upgrade was too conservative, dist-upgrade upgrades everything?
23:44:29 <Gregor> elliott: safe-upgrade is upgrade.
23:44:37 <HackEgo> 244|<zzo38> catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream
23:44:37 <olsner> I wonder why upgrade couldn't just be fixed
23:44:43 <elliott> Bleh, I have no idea about any of these stupid commands.
23:45:24 <elliott> pikhq: I just want a decent display manager!
23:45:34 <elliott> xdm is nice but you have to configure it tons with -- ugh -- Xresources.
23:45:41 <HackEgo> 244|<zzo38> catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream
23:46:20 <Vorpal> elliott, please stop that
23:46:28 <elliott> Vorpal: What, all two of them?
23:46:29 <Vorpal> elliott, the system is overloaded anyway
23:47:02 <Vorpal> I wonder what the load averages will be
23:48:07 <elliott> <HackEgo> 243|<fungot> ais523: my nose feels like a bad heuristic
23:48:08 <fungot> elliott: it's hard to debug havoc on your mirror if you accidentally hit r, then a character could be multiple words long, depending on the task.
23:48:08 <Vorpal> elliott, btw I'm waiting for the Routing Information Protocol to be superseded. Know why?
23:48:20 <Vorpal> elliott, so I can say "RIP RIP"
23:48:40 <oerjan> fungot: you're relevant as always
23:48:41 <fungot> oerjan: what's different? it seems pointless to have vector-set! and vector-ref. ( hm, this button should be about 100 mbps both directions. at least, i think
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23:49:30 <Vorpal> `addquote <fungot> elliott: it's hard to debug havoc on your mirror if you accidentally hit r, then a character could be multiple words long, depending on the task.
23:49:30 <fungot> Vorpal: sounds pretty cool. very similar, and i'd like to see source code.) good stuff. i just think it would
23:49:49 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, please stop that
23:49:49 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, the system is overloaded anyway
23:50:06 <Gregor> I'm lovin' how while I'm doing a dist-upgrade and super-overloading the system everybody wants to use it :P
23:50:07 <Vorpal> elliott, it is a sucky system too
23:50:45 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, my system is was more responsive than that when dist-upgrading from jaunty to karmic and karmic to lucid
23:51:02 <elliott> I'll just defer to Gregor here.....
23:52:03 <elliott> http://www.togaware.com/linux/survivor/Wajig_Overview.html Wow.
23:52:06 <elliott> That is a lot of commands.
23:52:09 <HackEgo> 22:52:03 up 19 days, 4:27, 0 users, load average: 15.92, 12.08, 8.42
23:52:14 <Gregor> It's not, but recently it's been pretty bad. I don't know if it's an issue with prgmr or me.
23:52:27 <elliott> http://wajig.togaware.com/gjig-screenshot.jpg lol
23:52:36 <elliott> Gregor: well prgmr are full
23:52:36 <HackEgo> 210|<alise> I love logic, especially the part where it makes no sense.
23:52:54 <zzo38> When they run out of letters for Ubuntu codenames and don't want to repeat anymore, then they will use letters from other language and make it up themself
23:52:59 <elliott> "We added 3 new servers so far this month, and have gotten through the waiting list. Ordering is open for now and more parts are on order. we will try our best to keep up with demand. Right now, there is a 24 hour backlog to do provisioning."
23:53:06 <elliott> zzo38: no they won't, they'll just start from the first letter or change the name
23:53:12 <elliott> also, there's a decade or two before that will happen.
23:53:25 <HackEgo> 22:53:24 up 19 days, 4:29, 0 users, load average: 10.93, 11.53, 8.53
23:53:31 <Vorpal> elliott, what is http://www.togaware.com/linux/survivor/Wajig_Overview.html really?
23:53:37 <elliott> Vorpal: a frontend to apt and stuff.
23:53:38 <Vorpal> elliott, it says how it works but not what it is
23:53:46 <elliott> package management and shit.
23:53:50 <Vorpal> elliott, okay, nothing wrong with apt-get and aptitude
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23:54:04 <elliott> well some of the commands look useful
23:54:06 <Vorpal> elliott, (apt-get because aptitude source won't work, while apt-get source will!)
23:54:17 <elliott> Vorpal: no aptitude in latest ubuntu :)
23:54:19 <elliott> you have to install it yourself
23:54:29 <elliott> (it's to save ~megabytes~ on disc so they can put shitty applications there instead)
23:54:35 <elliott> (it's to save ~megabytes~ on disc so they can put shitty applications there instead)
23:54:39 <elliott> apparently it saves like 13 MiB
23:54:39 <HackEgo> 245|<fungot> elliott: it's hard to debug havoc on your mirror if you accidentally hit r, then a character could be multiple words long, depending on the task.
23:54:43 <Vorpal> elliott, yes it arrived same second :P
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23:55:01 <elliott> Gregor: prgmr supports netbsd which is cool CAN YOU TELL I WANT TO USE NETBSD
23:55:02 <Vorpal> elliott, but apt-get is still there?
23:55:25 <HackEgo> 22:55:24 up 19 days, 4:31, 0 users, load average: 6.87, 10.18, 8.43
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23:57:21 <zzo38> I need to make commands in TeX for modifying the eqtb[] and various other things directly, so that you can write \the\equiv\basethe\catcode0
23:58:09 <zzo38> And also \dvibinary to send arbitrary binary data into the DVI file, and trick the page position