00:00:16 zzo38, link to enhanced cweb? 00:00:59 Vorpal: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/cweb/cweb.zip http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/cweb/webmath.zip 00:01:11 (First link is the program itself; second link is the fonts) 00:01:22 zzo38, not on gopher? 00:02:13 Vorpal: Not yet. The gopher server does not automatically index, I make them manually, so it will take a while. Things are usually found on HTTP first. And then later, on both protocols. 00:02:36 back 00:02:41 elliott: Sigh. I am downloading the NetBSD 5.0.2 install ISO, via torrent. 00:02:43 why sigh? 00:02:45 However I plan to add it now, just because of reminded 00:02:59 You are expected to complain about version 0.3 of Enhanced CWEB now, so that I can fix it and also answer question, please. 00:03:01 zzo38, I see 00:03:03 Expected by you, maybe. 00:03:23 zzo38, some gopher servers does index automatically though 00:04:12 Vorpal: Yes, but then you won't get descriptions and stuff. I do have a auto index script for the stuff in textfile/ 00:04:24 (The stuff in textfile/ has no descriptions on its menus) 00:06:44 elliott: You talked me into it! Well, not really. 00:06:59 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:07:22 Vorpal: I have now added it to gopher. It is now available over two protocols 00:09:07 heh 00:09:31 I have to agree with catseye about it though 00:09:56 (It is my intention that most of my stuff will be available over both protocols; however there is some things only useful for one or the other protocol, so I won't make everything listed on both) 00:14:06 Vorpal: Do you have the same complains about Enhanced CWEB that catseye? But catseye tried only normal CWEB at first? 00:16:42 Play solitaire card and win a big spider 2.9 times as big as you and then change their name to AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!! 00:17:53 AAAAAAAAAA! 00:18:21 ...which reminds me, it seems like the new neighbors possibly named their dog "Taxi". 00:18:29 (Even if you don't want to, I do want to. Even trade?) 00:20:25 oerjan: What have you heard? Have the neighbors told you they named their dog "Taxi"? Is that for normal reason or for confusing reason, or for the other reason? 00:20:47 * oerjan wants to respond "even so" but fears that might be considered acceptance of the trade 00:21:05 well one of their kids shouted that to it 00:21:50 the evidence isn't yet very reliable 00:22:52 oerjan: You cannot accept the trade. There is currently nothing to trade and anyways it is by computer, so we can't. 00:23:30 But if someone in near here win the big spider 2.9 times as big as me and change their name to AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!! then if I win something else as big, it can trade with you if the other thing is the things you wanted. 00:23:39 catseye: how goes it 00:24:24 zzo38: I tried to use Enhanced CWEB but a spider 2.9 times as big as me mauled me. 00:24:30 I am currently bleeding profusely and may die soon. 00:24:33 I want a refund. 00:25:05 ...land arthropods don't get that big, anyway 00:25:39 they do in Bosnatia 00:26:03 though there was this giant sea scorpion or something in the paleozoic, i recall 00:26:05 elliott: Sorry. No refund, since the program doesn't cost any money, therefore the money cannot be refunded. But perhaps be more careful next time, please. 00:26:11 elliott: a bit slow 00:26:13 zzo38: I'm suing you, then! 00:26:16 catseye: still downloading? 00:26:20 catseye: add some WEB SEEDS 00:26:33 elliott: no, downloading is done. backing up still in progress. also noms 00:26:40 Also... noms? 00:26:46 nom nom nom 00:26:58 catseye: how's the backup going, i don't want to miss the netbsd action 00:27:48 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurypterid 00:28:02 elliott: I can refund the cost of the bet that you win a big spider, but I cannot refund the cost of the Enhanced CWEB program. Sorry. 00:28:03 elliott: any significant action of netbsd will probably be tomorrow. 00:28:08 though i may test tonight 00:28:21 (test booting it off the usb stick) 00:28:23 catseye: what timezone are you in? 00:28:29 zzo38: I'm suing you. 00:28:38 elliott: CDT 00:28:39 oerjan: new nightmare 00:29:00 great old nightmares 00:29:06 is it bst right now??? 00:29:08 >_> 00:29:28 catseye: what local times are you usually doing crazy computer shit (i'm going to see if i'll MISS THE ACTION or not) 00:29:29 last weekend in october hasn't been yet 00:29:40 so it shouldn't be 00:29:52 apparently it is bst 00:29:53 elliott: Fine, OK, but perhaps I can refund the bet. But you can't sue me for the program; the program is provided you are responsible for your own use. 00:29:59 "12:29am Sunday (BST) - Time in London, United Kingdom" 00:30:06 zzo38: i saw no such disclaimer 00:30:31 elliott: wait it doesn't distinguish DST? 00:30:35 ? 00:30:45 it definitely should still be DST across europe 00:30:47 oerjan: in britain we call it BST 00:30:50 elliott: Then you didn't look; it is on line seven. 00:30:51 we have a different system i think 00:31:01 oerjan: British Summer Time 00:31:03 um what do you call it in winter then? 00:31:07 oerjan: normal time? 00:31:07 GMT 00:31:12 huh 00:31:13 Greenwich Mean Time 00:31:17 oerjan: we don't have DST in winter 00:31:21 obviously 00:31:27 if that's what you meant 00:31:35 ok 00:31:40 oerjan: *annoyingly* there is no acronym to refer to "whatever it is in britain right now" 00:31:44 oerjan: so you get to say "British time" or whatever 00:31:51 elliott: i have nothing much to do tomorrow. i don't know when i'll get up. with luck, i might be ready to install around noon, but who knows/ 00:31:54 *? 00:31:56 % It is distributed WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY, express or implied. 00:32:01 catseye: hell naw 00:32:09 catseye: that's 6am for me here! >_> 00:32:20 catseye: IT IS THEATRE OK 00:32:36 elliott: You can sue whoever you bet the big spider at. 00:32:37 elliott: i'll wait til i see you, then. unless i get bored. 00:32:52 i might try installing something else first if i don't see you. 00:32:58 catseye: i will probably be on at 8-9 pm your time :P 00:33:24 catseye: otoh, i will most likely be here at 10/11am your time (4/5am for me) 00:33:45 elliott: If you are as big as me, send a big spider to me and then I will figure out how much money to refund for that. (Please note this is not a refund for the computer program; but it is still a refund for the same amount of money; so why complain?) 00:34:06 zzo38: How am I meant to post you a gigantic spider? 00:34:29 Vorpal: Do you have the same complains about Enhanced CWEB that catseye? But catseye tried only normal CWEB at first? <-- so did I 00:34:35 was a few weeks ago 00:34:48 bbl 00:35:22 elliott: I don't know how. Perhaps call the service that is specifically for that purpose. 00:35:36 zzo38: are you *sure* you're not on lsd? 00:35:56 elliott: Yes, I am sure I am not on LSD. I only simulate it. 00:36:05 wtf 00:36:08 elliott: Aaah, time zones. How little sense they make. 00:36:09 zzo38: Constantly. 00:36:25 elliott, are you talking about one of his games? 00:36:33 elliott: BTW, I highly doubt you use GMT. 00:36:36 Vorpal: nope. 00:36:40 pikhq: no, we actually do. 00:36:44 pikhq: not UTC. 00:36:45 elliott, ouch 00:36:47 pikhq: well. 00:36:57 pikhq: it is possible, I suppose, that all the GMT clocks secretly count leap seconds. 00:37:07 elliott: ... You use the mean solar time at the Royal Observatory? 00:37:09 pikhq: but it is *definitely* universally referred to as GMT, no matter what 00:37:14 Vorpal: I think elliott is not, but I am talking about one of Damian Yerrick's game, called: Tetanus on Drugs, or, Lockjaw: The Overdose. 00:37:24 pikhq: ok it seems to now be an alias 00:37:27 Greenwich Mean Time (GMT) is a term originally referring to mean solar time at the Royal Observatory in Greenwich, London. It is arguably the same as Coordinated Universal Time (UTC) and when this is viewed as a time zone the name Greenwich Mean Time is especially used by bodies connected with the United Kingdom, such as the BBC World Service,[1] the Royal Navy, the Met Office and others. 00:37:28 Before the introduction of UTC on 1 January 1972 Greenwich Mean Time (also known as Zulu time) was the same as Universal Time (UT) which is a standard astronomical concept used in many technical fields. Astronomers no longer use the term "Greenwich Mean Time". 00:37:28 In the UK, GMT is the official time only during winter; during summer British Summer Time is used. GMT is the same as Western European Time.[2] 00:37:30 zzo38, I see 00:38:04 pikhq: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/Greenwich_clock.jpg 00:38:13 XXIII, O, I, ... 00:38:18 *..., XXIII, O, I, ... 00:38:26 (You don't need to be drunk to play Tetris; the computer can make it drunk for you.) 00:38:33 elliott: Apparently, under the Interpretation Act, it is *literally* GMT. 00:38:34 elliott, err, 5s of seconds? 00:38:35 "British yard" "Two feet" "One foot" "six inches" 00:38:37 "? inches" 00:38:43 "[incomprehensible]" 00:38:44 *Six 00:38:50 elliott, err minutes* 00:38:51 pikhq: Alright then. 00:38:56 pikhq: UTC, you mean? 00:38:58 Vorpal: ? 00:39:06 elliott: No. 00:39:09 elliott, those roman numerals 00:39:11 elliott, wtf 00:39:16 elliott: It is literally the mean solar time at the Royal Observatory. 00:39:17 Vorpal: it's hours 00:39:21 XXIII = 23 00:39:24 23:00 00:39:27 elliott: you're living in the WET zone 00:39:35 pikhq: ok, but *nobody* uses GMT to mean that. 00:39:44 pikhq: not the BBC, not the Met Office... 00:40:05 I dislike using roman numbers for 24-hour clock; roman numbers should be used for 12-hour clock. 00:40:06 pikhq, timezones actually make a lot of sense in that people want to be awake when it is daylight. But sure you could start using UTC everywhere and then refer to midday as 22:00 and such 00:40:08 elliott: But de jure, it is. 00:40:17 pikhq: de jure yet even the government ignores it :P 00:40:20 hey, like the US Constitution! 00:40:22 elliott, oh a 24h clock 00:40:23 Vorpal: The specific implementations suck. 00:40:29 pikhq, how so? 00:40:37 Vorpal: there are timezones that aren't even UTC+n.5 00:40:40 there's one that's like 00:40:43 N hours and 12 minutes off 00:40:44 or something 00:40:45 elliott, oh indeed 00:40:52 China has one timezone all the way 00:40:53 elliott, they are exceptions though 00:40:54 even though it's like 00:40:56 5 billion lightyears long 00:40:57 most are +n 00:41:03 a few are +n.5 00:41:13 Vorpal: Yes that was one of my ideas too; have no DST or anything like that, just change what is called the first hour of the day at DST, instead of changing what is called eight o'clock 00:41:14 elliott, yes most countries suck 00:41:16 proposal: instead of dividing the globe into discrete sections for timezones 00:41:19 divide it continuously 00:41:19 Vorpal: Daylight savings time, being *entirely* arbitrarily drawn, aaand bizarre offsets. 00:41:31 i.e. moving one planck length changes your timezone proportionally 00:41:32 :D 00:41:39 elliott, that would be confusing for most people 00:41:42 Vorpal: BUT AWESOME 00:41:45 you could travel in time 00:41:47 just by running forwards 00:41:50 Driving west, your car's clock would slow down 00:41:51 at 1 timezone second per second 00:41:52 well 00:41:53 stay in time 00:41:55 rather 00:41:56 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/Timezones2010.png See, the lines chosen suck. 00:42:01 catseye: yes yes yes 00:42:02 it's like 00:42:05 You could have UTC time and sundial time, if that is necessary. 00:42:05 relativity for the layman 00:42:13 We don't need DST. 00:42:30 you know what really sucks? 00:42:33 international waters aren't free. 00:42:36 freedom of the seas my ass 00:42:40 because of "international jurisdiction" 00:42:51 if you do something we think's really horrible in international waters, we'll come and get you just because we can! 00:43:11 Note that it has nothing to do with the actual solar time in the region, and sometimes doesn't even vaguely correspond to political boundaries. 00:43:29 pikhq, yes spain fails at it 00:43:49 pikhq, Sweden manages quite okay 00:44:16 Why in the *world* is Spain on UTC+1? 00:44:18 heck I almost live where it is correct 00:44:21 pikhq, no clue 00:45:40 new proposal 00:45:48 I happen to live right along the UTC+7 meridian. It's a bit of a rarity for North Americans to live close to the meridian for their time zone... 00:45:48 12:00 is whenever the sun rises, no matter what :D 00:45:54 11:59 gets extended until the sun rises 00:46:04 11:59:129 00:46:09 now imagine the poles :) 00:46:12 not the polish people. 00:46:23 11:59:123478632478346 00:46:24 Look at Canada: the UTC+6 meridian happens to be the *border* of the UTC+6 time zone there! 00:46:32 Well, for a decent chunk of it. 00:46:37 wait that's 00:46:47 3,913 millenia 00:46:50 not that many seconds :D 00:47:46 elliott, you are aiming for awkward aren't you? 00:47:52 maybe 00:48:07 Vorpal: would fit in nicely with eternal september though 00:48:31 Iceland's UTC+0 but is in the ideal UTC+1 and UTC+2 zones... 00:48:32 Just. Gah. 00:48:46 "It's September 65257, 1993, 11:59:7889231." 00:49:08 Oh, and China. Ideal UTC+5 over to ideal UTC+9, but it's all on UTC+8. 00:49:19 elliott, wait there is one place offset 14? 00:49:22 it looks like it 00:49:26 Vorpal: probably 00:49:29 pick a number, it's there. 00:49:35 catseye: how's that backup doing :| you are my entertainment 00:49:38 elliott, 14 > 12 though 00:49:40 elliott, it is weird 00:49:48 Vorpal: Yes. 00:49:49 Vorpal: UTC+24 00:50:03 hah 00:50:51 pikhq, actually Sweden is on +2 atm, due to DST 00:50:59 Vorpal: Silly. 00:51:03 pikhq, agreed 00:51:35 elliott: :p 00:51:48 catseye: HOW IS IT GOIIIING 00:52:00 And God, the US has so many time zones. 00:52:10 It exists in 11 time zones. 00:52:37 Yo momma's so fat, she's in 11 different time zones. 00:52:41 Simultaneously. 00:52:52 the sun never sets on the US empire 00:52:59 pikhq: wait 11? time.gov suggests fewer 00:53:04 9 there 00:53:31 well nearly 00:53:43 elliott: There's two US islands without *legally* defined timezones; they thus are defined by nautical time. 00:53:51 pikhq: awesome. 00:54:01 Baker Island & Howland Island are UTC-12, and Wake Island is UTC+12. 00:54:05 pikhq: speaking of nautical lament the nonexistence of the freedom of the seas 00:55:59 elliott: It's going. I have backed up my windows partition (with exception of some files in the Windows directory that it hangs on copying. I just decided I do not need to retain my Windows directory. Seems sane enough.) I am now copying over my files from Ubuntu 00:56:11 catseye: not just copying ~? 00:56:25 Most of ~, yes. I think that's all 00:56:40 not the whole ubuntu install, that's... no 00:57:04 (for windows, though, you're never really sure where it's saving your stuff) 00:58:17 catseye: if i were you i'd put the netbsd manual on another usb stick (assuming you have two usb ports...) 00:58:32 btw iirc the netbsd installer cd has no option to go to a console, but ^C does it 00:58:40 (the software selection is very limited though, i'd just install it) 00:58:52 catseye: at least the networking stuff was a bit "wut" when i tried in a vm 00:59:26 maybe this should be ##esoteric 00:59:53 Mathnerd314: that has been mentioned before. (1) we've been here since december 2002, freenode can go fuck itself, 01:00:04 and (2) nobody owns esotericness, so nobody has a real claim to #esoteric, only ##esoteric 01:00:07 so it doesn't matter 01:00:10 I OWN ESOTERIC well kind of 01:00:19 since nobody's being, or can possibly be, disadvantaged 01:00:27 catseye: yeah you invented brainfuck 01:00:40 i chose the word 01:00:51 heh 01:01:02 catseye: do you realise that by coming in here and acting all normal you've ruined your deity^Wcelebrity status :) 01:01:16 not that it was an extremely un-obvious choice 01:01:22 elliott: um... no 01:01:29 no i do not realize that 01:01:42 catseye: well at least among the sillier esotericers (i.e. most of us) 01:02:21 ......... 01:02:27 catseye: i'm pretty sure everyone was convinced you had a complete understanding of what the funge-98 specification was meant to say, and there was only one possible interpretation 01:02:29 :D 01:02:30 Hah. In Alaska, the days between October 6, 1867 and October 18, 1867 never existed. 01:02:34 IF ONLY WE COULD MEET THE MAN 01:02:40 catseye: i'm exaggerating 01:02:42 stop dotting 01:03:00 THE DAMN RUSSIANS STOLE THEM 01:03:23 pikhq: "The British calender act of 1751 / declared the day after Wednesday / September 2nd, 1752 / Would be Thursday, September 14" 01:03:29 elliott: glad to be of disillusioning service, i guess 01:03:33 *calendar 01:03:48 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4Zf1eyWYFs 01:03:51 catseye: i'm pretty sure everyone was convinced you had a complete understanding of what the funge-98 specification was meant to say, and there was only one possible interpretation <-- I suspected it was not the whole truth, what with the behaviour of t 01:03:55 (the song that quote's from) 01:04:05 The US purchase of Alaska became effective October 6, 1867, 24:00:00 local time. In doing so, Alaska switched from the Julian calendar to the Gregorian, *and* went to the other side of the International Date Line. 01:04:20 pikhq: julian -> gregorian was the name for that quoted change too 01:04:24 but lol @ international date line 01:04:52 Copying 14x,xxx files, one hour twenty-eight minutes remaining 01:05:07 Oh, and it went from Friday to Friday. 01:05:37 heh 01:05:40 Yes, the day after Friday, October 6 was Friday, October 18. 01:05:56 DOUBLE FRIDAY!! 01:05:59 that would make better lyrics 01:06:01 catseye: all the way across the sky? 01:07:51 *Would be Thursday, September 14 / 1752" 01:08:11 Wow. Many Eastern Orthodox churches still use the Julian calendar. 01:08:19 elliott: How was 10.10? 01:08:20 Because the Gregorian was invented by a Catholic Pope. 01:08:36 catseye: not recommended over netbsd, that's for sure. i'm considering installing it myself now 01:08:42 sure it's ports but... urggh 01:09:07 catseye: oh btw pkg_add doesn't work out of the box in netbsd. you have to set a mirror environment variable. it's explained in the big ol' manual ... you probably know all this, i'm just relaying some issues i had 01:09:11 Because I'm going to need an understudy in case NetBSD gets in a traffic accident 01:09:13 pikhq: <3 that 01:09:23 Same reason Protestant countries in Europe were reluctant to switch. 01:09:31 catseye: You /could/ install 10.10, but you'd want to start hating it and aiming to replace it quickly. 01:09:36 Otherwise you become complacent. 01:09:45 elliott: I know nothing. But I might be able to use my awesome BSD intuitions developed in previous escapades 01:10:10 catseye: "Also, FreeBSD offers a nice alternative interface to NetBSD Manual Pages." 01:10:13 --netbsd.org/docs 01:10:29 catseye: Put this on another USB stick: http://netbsd.org/docs/guide/en/netbsd.html 01:10:35 That's the entire NetBSD guide in one HTML file. 01:10:41 aren't OpenBSD man pages the best? 01:10:48 elliott: ports kind of is awful. pkgsrc is kinda sorta ok but also has same root in awful as ports. what pkg manager for Kitten? 01:10:53 Mathnerd314: nothing OpenBSD is the best 01:10:56 catseye: pkg(8) 01:11:04 catseye: it's the bees bollocks. wait... 01:11:10 elliott: WHAT UNIX SYSTEM AM I SUPPOSED TO MAN THAT AT 01:11:14 catseye: kitten 01:11:21 * catseye hellfire etc 01:11:37 catseye: btw you have to download pkgsrc in netbsd :D 01:11:39 it's a tarball 01:11:44 beauty 01:11:52 seriously recommend downloading that html file. i had quite a few "wtf" moments 01:11:56 and it always explained them 01:12:02 elliott: ... It gets worse. 01:12:05 pikhq: OH NO 01:12:14 elliott: They use a *Revised* Julian Calendar. 01:12:14 catseye: pkg(8) is basically the most awesome package manager you can imagine, ever. 01:12:18 ok WHOA 01:12:23 elliott: Sorry, *many* of them do. 01:12:24 catseye: what 01:12:25 pikhq: xD 01:12:29 gnome desktop froze for a moment 01:12:38 elliott: Move the calendar back 13 days and then use a slightly different leap year rule. 01:12:42 pikhq: "In 2800 the two calendars will diverge again, though more slowly than the Julian and Gregorian do." 01:12:43 halfway bwteen two virtual desktops 01:12:46 elliott: Yup. 01:12:48 it was scary 01:12:49 catseye: FREAKY MAN 01:13:01 catseye: totally install xfce next time. or. maybe assemble your own if you're crazy enough 01:13:05 from scattered window managers 01:13:11 actually what WM did you use when you used bsd? 01:13:11 ha 01:13:12 xmonad ftw 01:13:22 elliott: I used blackbox most of the time 01:13:27 coppro was so promising before he discovered all that shitty software everyone loves 01:13:28 catseye: ew 01:13:32 catseye: i can't stand the *boxes 01:13:37 catseye: they're so... "1337 hax0r" 01:13:44 especially fluxbox 01:13:55 elliott: lol 01:14:06 it was not something i was fond of, just something that worked 01:14:09 coppro: amend will never forgive you 01:14:19 elliott: if you ever finish it, I'm willing to try it 01:14:23 catseye: pekwm is a pretty nice minimalish-but-works-normally WM 01:14:28 in the meanwhile, I will be happy powerusing with vim and xmonad 01:14:29 no panel though :P 01:14:34 elliott: i will totally go to a tiling wm if i can 01:14:39 well, maybe not 01:14:40 catseye: ugh -- you too? 01:14:47 catseye: nice idea in theory. but trust me. they're terribly designed 01:14:48 tiling wms increase efficiency 01:14:51 it's as simple as that 01:14:54 i try that at work (ON WINDOWS 7 -- it's a blast, man) 01:15:06 coppro: you're either trolling or stupid enough to think making an assertion like that makes it true without justification 01:15:09 elliott: terribly designed in what sense? 01:15:09 coppro: they CAN SOMETIMES if THINGS WORK 01:15:19 which they DON'T 01:15:24 catseye: modern tiling wms - "Stop wasting time on window management! Waste time pressing our hotkeys instead because it never gets it right the first time." 01:15:31 catseye: if you're hardcore try http://www.jfc.org.uk/software/lwm.html 01:15:35 no buttons, but it's cool 01:15:36 i used it for a time 01:15:44 elliott: you've make some great assertions without justification. I thought I'd join the party 01:15:59 coppro: i was having a conversation with catseye clearly expressing an opinion 01:16:01 catseye: I have had no issues getting xmonad to work. I have no experience with other tiling wms. 01:16:03 elliott: I just want a billion jillion virtual desktops and intuitive navigation between them and the ability to make some things like chat windows highly notifivisible. 01:16:04 try to understand this. 01:16:14 elliott, you dislike tiling wms? 01:16:18 catseye: lwm has exactly 1 desktop, so :P 01:16:23 20:14 < elliott> catseye: nice idea in theory. but trust me. they're terribly designed 01:16:28 Vorpal: no -- my favourite WM is a tiling WM. unfortunately nobody has implemented it yet 01:16:35 coppro: "catseye:", "trust me" (i.e. my opinion) 01:16:37 elliott, what about dwm? 01:16:43 maybe i'll take it to /msg instead. 01:16:48 elliott, you can't say suckless software sucks! 01:16:53 Vorpal: dwm is cool, sure, but i wouldn't use it :P 01:16:58 elliott: "trust me" does not sound like an opinion. It sounds like "I am right and will not waste time explaining it" 01:17:00 19 minutes left! 01:17:02 Vorpal: dwm is at least saner than most tiling WMs 01:17:02 elliott, right 01:17:09 coppro: and "literally" often means "NOT LITERALLY AT ALL" 01:17:13 OMG MODERN ENGLISH SLANG 01:17:14 oh boy, wm "debate" 01:17:16 WHAT IS IT WHAT IS IT WHAAAAT 01:17:23 elliott: I mean from normal usage 01:17:28 that is what people use "trust me" to mean 01:17:34 catseye: no, it's me mostly agreeing with Vorpal's joke and it's coppro picking stupid nits 01:17:36 regardless of its denotative meaning 01:17:39 elliott, I will start using figuratively to mean "as written" 01:17:42 coppro: only idiots. i hope you realise i'm not an idiot 01:18:05 elliott: uh, no, that's the standard connotative meaning of the phrase 01:18:08 at least where I come from 01:18:19 coppro: "trust me" basically means nothing really 01:18:21 like "like" ;) 01:18:27 So, at work, I use a tiling "window manager" for Windows called "bug.n" (great name huh), and it *kind of* works. But, Windows' window GUIs are rarely designed with tiling in mind. 01:18:42 So I will just reiterate what I said about a billion jillion virtual desktops. 01:19:00 wow that's impressive 01:19:02 bug.n that is 01:19:13 catseye: do you use subpixel smoothing? if so be prepared to stop doing so; other stuff doesn't ship with the patched freetype that makes it non-hideous 01:19:15 bug.n is error. 01:19:19 and i mean hideous (blue. everywhere.) 01:19:29 catseye: the website is a bit strange 01:19:31 A fork of dwm 5.8, a dynamic window manager for X, incuding the flextile patch. 01:19:32 Written inAutoHotkey script 01:19:32 Operating systemMicrosoft Windows 01:19:33 i... don't think I do 01:19:39 apparently fork means rewrite loosely based on 01:19:42 catseye: do you use ubuntu? 01:19:47 did you turn it off? 01:19:48 oh wait 01:19:52 you're on an old version 01:19:55 right you don't, no need to worry 01:19:55 OH! AutoHotKey script is a FANTASTIC language, just like NSIS Installer language is FANTASTIC. 01:21:01 coppro: so how goes my article publication HUH 01:21:25 It sucks being sick. 01:21:40 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 01:21:51 catseye: oh btw the difference between FFSv1 and FFSv2 is that FFSv1 uses 32-bit inodes and FFSv2 doesn't. so if you have a partition >1 Tb... :P also only FFSv2 has journaling. it might be worth using just for that 01:22:00 UFSv2 = FFSv2, and none of the other filesystems are worth using 01:22:04 (just an alias) 01:22:10 catseye: THAT IS WHAT I HAVE LEARNED. 01:22:24 elliott: dunno 01:22:40 you know I'm not an editor, and you're getting annoying. 01:22:54 (read: I may /ignore you if you ask again) 01:23:05 elliott: Gentoo's had a patent violation USE flag for ages now. :) 01:23:17 coppro: SORRY I WILL REFRAIN FROM JOKING IN FUTURE PLEASE FORGIVE ME 01:23:23 pikhq: of course it can be done it's just more of a pain 01:23:35 pikhq: and if you're not crazy like you or me, it's easier just to turn it off 01:23:46 pikhq: yes it does suck :( 01:23:52 what does freebsd use? 01:23:54 elliott: Yeah. That sort of thing happens to be one of the few things that I genuinely *absolutely adore* about Gentoo. 01:23:55 I got food poisoning last week. :( What's wrong with you? 01:24:11 pikhq: USE flag proliferation is irritating 01:24:16 yeah i do not have anything > 1 tb but thanks for letting me know 01:24:20 GreaseMonkey: i don't know and i really don't care 01:24:24 catseye: yes but journaling is nice 01:24:27 coppro, pikhq: for me, being sick means I get to stay home and do fun stuff :-) 01:24:28 You are given the ability to flip off patent and trademark laws within the constraints of the package manager. 01:24:32 it says ufs but i think it might be a variant 01:24:33 istr FFSv2 01:24:35 Mathnerd314: It's the weekend. 01:24:42 pikhq: the patent is only valid in the us 01:24:45 coppro: Like a flu or something. 01:24:46 canonical is a UK company 01:24:47 so... 01:24:49 THE *BSDS ARE DYING 01:24:57 it's really just all the US users who are breaking the law 01:25:05 catseye: Netcraft confirms it. 01:25:07 elliott: Said patent expired, anyways. 01:25:08 Kirk McKusick and Poul-Henning Kamp extended the FreeBSD FFS and UFS layers to support a new variant, called UFS2, which adds 64-bit block pointers (allowing volumes to grow up to 8 zettabytes), variable-sized blocks (similar to extents), extended flag fields, additional 'birthtime' stamps, extended attribute support and POSIX1.e ACLs. UFS2 became the default UFS version starting with FreeBSD 5.0. 01:25:11 pikhq: well, maybe it'll last until monday or tuesday 01:25:25 catseye: FFSv1 is still the default NetBSD filesystem 01:25:36 catseye: but it's probably worth going FFSv2 just for the journaling 01:25:38 maybe 01:25:45 FAT12 or nothing, baby! 01:25:46 Mathnerd314: that's not sick 01:26:01 that's society being hypochondriac 01:26:08 catseye: although http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/PH_Kamp.jpg that tshirt is dangerously furry, do you want to risk another AROS?! 01:26:15 HE CO-INVENTED FFSV1 BE VERY AFRAID 01:26:15 oh god 01:26:24 PHK is... oh god 01:26:27 Mathnerd314: I'm too sick to genuinely *enjoy* doing stuff. 01:26:33 catseye: I WANT TO HEAR STORIES 01:26:39 Well, anything that requires thought. Or action. 01:26:43 pikhq: you can enjoy napping 01:26:45 catseye: although i have him down as a cool dude 01:26:46 maybe i will just not use computers from now on 01:26:49 Mathnerd314: hahahahaha 01:26:57 catseye: freebsd jails, Varnish cache, popularised "bikeshedding"?? 01:27:06 Mathnerd314: have you ever had a flu? 01:27:20 catseye: what's wrong with him, honest question 01:27:27 elliott: he is probably not a bad guy, he is just a vortex of drama 01:27:51 catseye: apparently he only contributed bits of the FFSv2 *implementation* SO YOU SHOULD BE FINE 01:27:52 really there are other freebsd'ers who i would be pointing fingers at 01:27:57 Mathnerd314: Sleeping is somewhat difficult when you have difficulty breathing. 01:27:59 or you could just stick with the defaults 01:28:01 and know it will work 01:28:06 if it came to "problem personalities" 01:28:08 and just hope it never crashes leaving you wanting journalling 01:28:15 FAT12 or nothing, baby! <-- the only real file system i've ever coded a driver for 01:28:19 catseye: colin percival is fun, i like him, despite his ego being unspeakably immense 01:28:29 GreaseMonkey: You could probably get FAT16 or FAT32 going easily from there. 01:28:41 i remember when colin percival was accepted as a committer. he was SOOOOOOOOOOO EXCITED 01:28:45 FAT16 would theoretically be a tad easier 01:28:49 FAT32 has more stuff though 01:28:55 catseye: well he's probably aspergers or something. 01:29:03 probably. 01:29:04 GreaseMonkey: No, FAT32 is just FAT with 32 instead of 16. 01:29:06 catseye: when was that? 01:29:11 he's only 27/28 now 01:29:15 GreaseMonkey: The long filename stuff is a FAT extension that works on all variants. 01:29:26 elliott: i ... must have been around 2001 01:29:32 coppro, pikhq: my experience has always been that lying in bed, hiding under the covers, it's warm and humid and dark enough to a) stop my nose and b) let me use my computer 01:29:48 or maybe 2003? 01:29:53 i don't remember 01:29:54 pikhq: no if you've looked at FAT32 you would have noticed that it uses more than just the first block for info and treats the root directory differently. 01:30:00 catseye: 19 or 21 then 01:30:04 VFAT is available for all FATs. 01:30:07 i know that. 01:30:15 it can also be safely ignored 01:30:28 he had just presented his paper on an exploit based on... i don't remember 01:30:33 something clever 01:30:34 catseye: he did a reddit "ask me questions" type thing a while back, someone asked him whether he thought he'd change the world and he said that he'd basically accepted that he would end up doing so no matter what 01:30:36 lol'd at that 01:30:37 about timings, probably 01:30:47 yeah he's... he... timing, yeah 01:30:55 GreaseMonkey: Um? 01:31:01 Mathnerd314: if you tried that with a proper flu, you'd have a computer covered in vomit 01:31:06 Oh, it does have another structure. 01:31:09 and you'd still feel awful 01:31:13 coppro: VOMITPUTER 01:31:18 (ever had hot-cold cycles?) 01:31:19 it runs on puters. also vomit 01:31:22 but if we're gossiping, then, oh yes, dag-erling smorgrav and kris whatshisname, THEY made the freebsd experience ENTIRELY pleasant. 01:31:34 Below are years 2004 and 2005 public logs provided by clog (an IRC channel logging "bot") for #esoteric on the Freenode (formerly known as Open Projects (formerly known as Linpeople)) IRC network. 01:31:34 it can also be safely ignored <-- what exactly is vfat 01:31:41 latest log: 10.10.16 01:31:46 GreaseMonkey, iirc fat file systems list as vfat when I mount them 01:31:48 Vorpal: VFAT == LFN support for FAT 01:31:55 GreaseMonkey, LFN? 01:32:04 long file name 01:32:05 coppro: usually I can tell at least 10-20s before I'm going to vomit 01:32:06 GreaseMonkey: The FAT32 information structure seems pretty simple. 01:32:08 GreaseMonkey, ah 01:32:19 GreaseMonkey, can't be ignored safely then :P 01:32:23 Mathnerd314: then you have not had a flu 01:32:23 pikhq: yeah, but it is a little more than just "change 16 to 32" 01:32:28 True. 01:32:40 Whereas FAT16 is just that. 01:32:47 latest log: 10.10.16 01:32:48 so? 01:32:49 Vorpal: actually you can ignore them, i think it's a weird combination of the disk label flag and some other flag 01:32:49 coppro: whatever, I'll sit and be happy 01:32:50 what of it 01:32:51 (... 12 to 16) 01:33:02 elliott: it says 2004 and 2005 01:33:09 GreaseMonkey, will mess up the fs if you move stuff around, no? 01:33:12 GreaseMonkey: oh 01:33:21 GreaseMonkey: that's because hcf jumped off a bridge in 2005 01:33:23 or rather stopped maintaining clog 01:33:24 well for reading they're safe to ignore 01:33:24 I should try this unetbootin 01:33:26 Vorpal: It was horribly hacked such that if used with an implementation that doesn't know about it, you just get 8.3 filenames. 01:33:29 thaaang 01:33:37 catseye: you can't if you're backing up can you? 01:33:45 pikhq, hmn 01:33:49 hm* 01:33:59 and yes, RIP benoit mandelbrot 01:34:15 i know nothing about FSes -- can a file be multiple inodes? 01:34:21 i.e. non-continuous across the disk? 01:35:13 Vorpal: It adds entries into the directory entry that are marked volume label, system, hidden, read only, *and* point to completely empty files. 01:35:22 elliott: gonna see how it works. i can create the install usb on one port while backing up? i think? 01:35:31 catseye: yes. but not test it obviously 01:35:36 elliott: yes. 01:35:39 Vorpal: Which makes ignorant filesystem drivers just ignore them. 01:35:45 catseye: just open the program, put the ISO in, check that the ISO box is the chosen one 01:35:51 catseye: pick the USB drive device 01:35:52 and click go 01:36:00 catseye: oh if you already have stuff on the stick just delete the files 01:36:22 catseye: (don't zero out the stick, it needs a fat partition to work) 01:36:30 it *won't* automatically delete the files for you 01:36:32 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:36:35 using newwww stick for nwo 01:36:38 *now 01:36:42 not the NEW WORLD ORDER 01:36:44 pikhq, hm 01:37:00 catseye: OTOH this means that you can put http://netbsd.org/docs/guide/en/netbsd.html and http://netbsd.org/docs/pkgsrc/index.html on before or after using unetbootin 01:37:04 catseye: *on the stick 01:37:10 although you might have to mount it manually afterwards 01:37:13 actually i'd just put them on another stick 01:37:16 simpler that way 01:37:19 Oh, and the long filenames are always UTF-16, even if the system code page isn't Unicode. 01:37:19 and more likely to work 01:37:37 (normal FAT filenames are based on the system code page) 01:37:48 pikhq, heh 01:38:05 one is already on my other "main" stick. the pkgsrc index, i don't have, might come in handy 01:38:43 elliott: um that's just the toc 01:38:51 catseye: er right sec 01:39:01 "The pkgsrc guide - for users and developers of pkgsrc, the centralized package build and management system . Available formats for download: PostScript and PDF" 01:39:02 fuck 01:39:06 postscript and pdf won't help ofc 01:39:31 aha 01:39:32 catseye: http://www.netbsd.org/docs/pkgsrc/pkgsrc.html 01:39:40 ty 01:40:18 did you know that the ISO standard for PDF is downloadable in the PDF format 01:40:28 GreaseMonkey: that's not really that amusing 01:40:34 it's not like you're going to try and implement pdf without a reader :) 01:40:44 although it is a self-describing document 01:40:47 which is always nice 01:43:03 catseye: anyway yes, if you get it working i will be very happy and consider switching myself 01:43:13 catseye: i think if you can get networking working you should be good to go. 01:43:27 Give him the stick DON'T GIVE HIM THE STICK 01:43:47 i believe i've managed to get netbsd working 01:43:47 5Cwow badly machined USB stick 01:43:55 although i used packages 01:43:59 catseye: what? 01:44:07 ran it off a 2GB USB stick 01:44:08 erm 01:44:10 2 metric GB 01:44:19 GreaseMonkey: *2 GB 01:44:31 G = 1,000,000,000 01:44:44 elliott: Was a bitch to "open" it so the USB connector is out; and when it's out, it's crooked 01:44:47 elliott: well you'll be fighting with ais 01:44:50 (2,147,483,648 bytes, on the other hand, is 2 GiB.) 01:44:55 GreaseMonkey: what? 01:44:59 ais definitely knows this. 01:45:01 it was always 1MB = 2^20B 01:45:07 until someone decided to be a smartarse 01:45:14 let's just hope it works ok 01:45:18 GreaseMonkey: your history is laughably inaccurate. 01:45:22 seems to 01:45:26 i'm pretty sure it was anyway 01:45:27 GreaseMonkey: gigawatt. gigahertz. 01:45:34 yeah but those aren't bytes 01:45:35 GreaseMonkey: the prefix is G. 01:45:37 computing wasn't there first. 01:45:46 GreaseMonkey: PREFIXES DO NOT CHANGE DEPENDING ON THE UNIT 01:45:49 that's the whole POINT of prefixes! 01:45:52 yeah, but when computing came out, division was EXPENSIVE 01:45:54 Isn't there something with HD manufacturers using the Non GiB? 01:46:09 GreaseMonkey: it's nothing to do with division 01:46:11 you're just making shit up 01:46:17 it's because memory is addressed in silicon 01:46:23 and our CPUs are based on bits 01:46:27 GreaseMonkey: see http://www.tarsnap.com/GB-why.html 01:46:31 This is all a conspiracy by hard drive manufacturers who want to cheat us out of the disk space we're paying for! 01:46:31 We all love good conspiracy theories... but really, this isn't about evil megacorporations trying to cheat you. Hard drive prices are determined almost entirely by competition between manufacturers, so if hard drives were labelled in GiB instead of being labelled in GB, we'd be paying the same number of dollars for the same number of bytes anyway — if this really was a global conspiracy, it would be one of the dumbest conspiracies ever. 01:46:46 elliott: you will consider *switching*? heh... ok 01:46:52 elliott: please shut up 01:46:54 catseye: wait, what's so amusing? 01:46:58 catseye: i mean from ubuntu to netbsd 01:47:09 i say metric GB when i mean they use the SI unit or something 01:47:21 GreaseMonkey: I'm not going to shut up just because you can't think of a response. 01:47:25 heck, my laptop uses 2048 metric MB of *RAM* 01:47:30 also I HAVE SEEN THAT PAGE BEFORE 01:47:32 Especially not after you invented about 10 explanations because I told you the previous ones were wrong. 01:47:40 elliott, I think the idea is that it's more of a psychological thing 01:47:48 Your laptop uses 2048 non-metric mebibytes. 01:47:51 It is not metric at all. 01:47:55 Sgeo: it isn't. 01:48:03 Sgeo: seriously. there is no conspiracy. there is no trickery. 01:48:07 elliott: i just never considered running netbsd as a "main" OS before, i guess 01:48:14 nothing saying you can't 01:48:18 catseye: it's what you're crazy enough to be doing, isn't it? 01:48:21 Your laptop uses 2048 non-metric mebibytes. <-- NOW you're wrong 01:48:33 it uses metric MB 01:48:38 well, with any luck, dual-boot windows and netbsd. so i have an "out" of sorts 01:48:41 which in your terms is MB, *NOT* MiB 01:48:41 GreaseMonkey: What? It really doesn't. 01:48:50 You're crazy. RAM is sold in powers of two. 01:48:51 i.e. MiB. 01:48:55 ok, i'll check again 01:49:02 elliott: they could save a few transistors 01:49:13 Likely to be reported by OSes as MB 01:49:16 um... address lines 01:49:22 2 GiB of RAM = 2048 MiB of RAM = 2'147'483'648 bytes 01:49:23 come in singles 01:49:25 and what catseye said 01:49:30 and each one multiplies the space by 2 01:49:30 it wouldn't change the number of address lines 01:49:47 but i believe they use metric MB 01:49:54 in my laptop's RAM 01:50:03 GreaseMonkey: they. really. don't. 01:50:14 hell, even see that dreaded page again: 01:50:17 [[You're right: If you buy a "1GB" stick of RAM, it will hold 2^30 bytes of data.]] 01:50:23 everybody knows this... 01:50:27 http://thanksants.com/alise 01:50:46 Thanks Elliott... Thelliott. 01:50:53 If by metric MB you mean 10^whatever bytes... you're insane 01:50:55 2001772 KB total as reported by top 01:51:13 if this were measured in GiB that would be 1.9GiB 01:51:21 1.9090... actually 01:51:23 GreaseMonkey: when it says KB 01:51:24 it means KiB 01:51:30 because that's what most things mean by KB 01:51:32 on a computer 01:51:41 2001772 KiB = 2049814528 bytes 01:51:56 wait, what? 01:51:56 elliott: 2001772.0/1024/1024 = 1.9090...... 01:51:59 GreaseMonkey: ok, something is rounding it. 01:52:04 you *do not* get RAM in that size 01:52:09 GreaseMonkey: what reports that? 01:52:10 Windows? 01:52:13 linux 01:52:16 it may be reserving some RAM for itself 01:52:19 whatever the OS 01:52:33 could be used by graphics circuits 01:52:36 GreaseMonkey: ok, i'm at risk of being wrong 01:52:37 ah yes, most likely 01:52:38 that hapens 01:52:45 oh, right 01:52:52 how much would that use, btw? 01:52:55 elliott, not most likely, it would use an even number of MB 01:53:01 Vorpal: not necessarily 01:53:08 elliott, most probably it would 01:53:10 Vorpal: it's more likely than RAM is being sold in non-powers of two, which *does* *not* *happen* 01:53:14 Vorpal: bios reserves some too iirc 01:53:40 elliott: they sell flash memory in non powers of two 01:53:48 what's to stop them selling RAM in non powers of two? 01:53:58 GreaseMonkey: no they don't 01:54:01 at least not that i've seen 01:54:06 if they do, it'll just have some inaccessible 01:54:09 GreaseMonkey: ok, here's a challenge 01:54:12 GreaseMonkey: http://newegg.com/ 01:54:15 find me some non-power-of-two RAM 01:54:16 go! 01:54:24 elliott, my system have a total of 1502 MiB RAM on my desktop. Not shared with gpu since gpu has it's own 01:54:30 You can look at the physical memory map in dmesg; there's all kinds of messiness there. 01:54:32 Vorpal: "MiB" 01:54:34 it's not metric MB 01:54:37 like GreaseMonkey says 01:54:38 actually it seems to something rather 01:54:38 it's MiB 01:54:41 elliott, indeed 01:54:48 Vorpal: so what you said contradicts nothing i said :) 01:54:52 elliott: that's the term ais uses 01:54:52 elliott, nominally it has 1.5 GB/GiB 01:54:59 GreaseMonkey: dear god, he doesn't, i was there when you said it 01:55:00 What happens if you put in a 512MiB stick and a 1GiB stick? 01:55:03 he mentioned it once 01:55:10 and while ais can get annoying i have more respect for him than you 01:55:56 or should i revert to "drivemakers' gigabytes"? 01:56:00 elliott: 01:56:01 $ cat /proc/meminfo 01:56:02 MemTotal: 1539008 kB 01:56:07 this should be exact 01:56:20 it is rare for most people in this channel to be abject morons who grasp at straws and use ideas of respect to dismiss facts. 01:56:23 you are a rare treasure. 01:56:26 Vorpal: right 01:56:41 elliott, it does not seem to be a power of two 01:56:44 elliott: no, you're just insanely loud and opinionated 01:56:53 elliott, should be 1512 really 01:56:53 GreaseMonkey: only when people like you make sweeping statements 01:56:57 i like to annoy them. works doesn't it? 01:57:04 elliott, is 1502.9375 01:57:25 Vorpal: something's reserved somewhere obviously 01:57:30 it's rather non-exact in my experience 01:57:37 but the ram is still always sold as powers of two, which is the point 01:57:48 elliott, "sold as" != "is" ;P 01:57:49 "obviously"[weasel word] 01:57:49 a "2G" stick of ram is always 2 GiB 01:57:56 GreaseMonkey: oh seriously, fuck off. 01:58:01 elliott, even memtest doesn't think I have exactly 1512 MB 01:58:04 or MiB 01:58:04 your plan has backfired 01:58:08 Vorpal: right. 01:58:12 Vorpal: but i'm talking about sold as here. 01:58:18 Vorpal | MemTotal: 1539008 kB 01:58:25 -!- Harpyon has quit (Quit: Harpyon). 01:58:37 Vorpal: I swear to never be awful to you ever again. Now I know how bad it could be. 01:58:47 Vorpal: You are an angel of perfection. 01:58:50 elliott, err :P 01:58:55 elliott, oh hah 01:59:29 I seem to have MemTotal: 1023972 kB 01:59:41 catseye: were you asking what pkg(8) was before btw? 01:59:44 i can explain the basic design if you want 01:59:51 but there is no guarantee that is all of the ram in the system, is there? 01:59:54 elliott, I would force you to watch graphs of statistics about panoramas all day long :P 02:00:00 just the total that the OS sees 02:00:09 elliott: yes i was! 02:00:09 how would i find out how much RAM was allocated to the GPU? 02:00:16 Vorpal: Lovely. Sounds wonderful. I'll look at it with my 4 GiB of non-metric RAM. 02:00:28 catseye: are you sure you want the whole boring story??? 'cuz i totally have it lined up man 02:00:52 oh right 02:00:59 elliott, SMM 02:01:07 elliott, that would reserve some memory 02:01:09 elliott: right now might not be the BEST time for me to absorb it, but, package managers have always been an annoyance to me, so i will probably recognize a lot of it. 02:01:19 elliott, while BIOS stuff would be visible to the OS 02:01:24 SMM might not 02:01:26 I'm not sure 02:02:14 catseye: Packages are built on layers of abstraction; a package for a "typical" autotools thing will just use some autotools library and be maybe 10-15 lines. More complicated stuff would be longer, obviously. Because, you know, building on abstractions. This is CS 101. 02:02:24 catseye: We have "metapackages" -- actually just packages but it's a semi-useful distinction. 02:02:29 catseye: Basically packages can take arguments/options. 02:02:33 well, ports builds on abstractions and is STUPID 02:02:39 catseye: Also every package can be given --arch and be compiled for that architecture. 02:02:46 because its language is MAKE, fuckin MAKE man! 02:02:59 It gets put into /arch/THEARCH-netbsd-netbsd/ as a root. 02:03:01 If it's non-native. 02:03:13 e.g. /arch/i686-netbsd-netbsd/bin/ls 02:03:18 catseye: Also every package can be given --arch and be compiled for that architecture. <-- surely there are some arch specific packages? 02:03:20 Obviously if you have x86_64 you can run this without issues. 02:03:27 Vorpal: There is a list of supported architectures you can set in each package. 02:03:29 catseye: Now. 02:03:33 catseye: Something like a cross-compiler. 02:03:33 elliott, right 02:03:39 catseye: A Canadian cross would look like this: 02:04:06 # pkg ins --arch=ppc --build=arm --target=x86 02:04:20 elliott, no package name? 02:04:22 erm 02:04:26 # pkg ins gcc-cross --arch=ppc --build=arm --target=x86 02:04:37 *i686 02:04:38 you get the idea 02:04:41 it'd actually be triples 02:04:42 but whatever 02:04:48 catseye: This would mean "on a PPC architecture (this will work if you have some sort of automatic PPC emulator configured), build a gcc cross compiler that is an ARM executable, that spits out x86 executables." 02:04:51 elliott, can you do canadian cross for llvm hm 02:04:55 obviously normally you'd omit --arch because... 02:05:01 well because it only controls the build process 02:05:05 so usually you'd want it to be native 02:05:07 cool unetbootin supports floppy i could make befos boot usb! 02:05:07 anyway that'd then install in 02:05:15 /arch/arm-netbsd-netbsd/... 02:05:22 elliott, that isn't what --build means iirc? 02:05:27 Vorpal: i forget. whatever. --host. 02:05:29 you know what i mean. 02:05:31 elliott, isn't --build the system used to build the cross compiler 02:05:32 or --build, or. 02:05:36 --host is where it runs 02:05:38 Vorpal: shut up you get the idea :D 02:05:39 catseye: Also, we use the package manager for system configuration. 02:05:41 and --target is what it compiles to 02:05:49 catseye: for instance: say we have some default X configuration files that start "the default window manager". 02:05:58 elliott: this does not seem to be addressing my own particular pet peeves but ok 02:05:59 catseye: # pkg ins default-x11-wm --wm=pekwm 02:06:08 catseye: this would conflict with all other arguments to --wm so you could only have one at a time 02:06:12 catseye: so we do a lot of configuration with this 02:06:19 catseye: i probably have addressed your peeves -- name them 02:06:20 wait the last might part i'm not sure 02:06:22 catseye, what are your pet peeves then? 02:06:23 i'll tell you if i've thought of them 02:06:58 package managers are imperative stomp stomp there it's installed should be declarative what packages ARE or ARE NOT on system 02:07:12 catseye: see NixOS 02:07:14 catseye, oh, you mean like that nixos thingy? 02:07:19 catseye: there will be a slight functional bent to it. of course. 02:07:24 but not as far as NixOS 02:07:31 elliott, why not as far? 02:07:33 i have never heard of nixos and will soon accuse you of MAKING it UP 02:07:34 catseye: it will be more functional than you might think though 02:07:41 Vorpal: because i want to maintain a distro, not an entirely new configuration of everything :D 02:07:48 Vorpal: same reason i'm not sandboxing everything 02:08:01 catseye, it isn't made up 02:08:35 elliott, oh, when do you think this will be implemented? Before or after DNF? 02:08:45 (your distro that is) 02:08:58 Vorpal: as soon as school stops taking up 90% of my time. so, maybe you can expect work to start in the half-term holiday. 02:09:11 if i don't end up watching youtube for the entire duration 02:09:21 Vorpal: it's deliberately not quite as ambitious as my real goals 02:09:25 merely because ubuntu is irritating. 02:09:27 elliott, and when do we get the capability-based-or-whatever-os-the-current-fad elliottOS? 02:09:45 Vorpal: hey elliottOS is not faddish, it's more curmudgeonly, most of the stuff i want isn't in fashion :P 02:09:56 also, that project is and always has been a platonic ideal. if anything it will be my life's work. 02:10:07 elliott, okay, but your own fad 02:10:09 i do not anticipate calling anything 1.0 even in the next decade. 02:10:16 elliott, one day it is smalltalk and capabilities 02:10:27 elliott, the next it is lisp and one bit address space 02:10:29 Vorpal: note: i have never said i will use a certain language for elliottOS 02:10:34 elliott, true 02:10:35 i so totally should have bought corn chips when i was at whole foods. oh well 02:10:36 one address space has always been a goal 02:10:37 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 02:10:41 capabilities have always been a goal 02:10:47 the language has always been and will always be in total flux :) 02:10:56 elliott, their relative importance changed a lot 02:11:10 well, what's the point of vague design if you can't change your mind day-to-day? :) 02:11:18 true 02:11:30 "One address space"? 02:11:37 elliott, still I think you and zzo should join efforts :P 02:11:48 Sgeo: no ram/disk dichotomy 02:11:52 VORPAL HAVE YOU EVER PLAYED ZORK 02:11:54 I assume anything attempting to access memory it shouldn't have access to gets an error of some .... OH 02:11:57 Awes.. wait 02:12:01 There are reasons for that 02:12:13 Well, maybe not for filesystems 02:12:14 no there aren't. not like you think. 02:12:17 or mit dungeon 02:12:17 But HDs are slower 02:12:22 indeed. 02:12:24 because if not you totally should 02:12:26 that is well accounted for 02:12:28 catseye, alas no, I played collosal cave of course 02:12:32 err % typos 02:12:38 gah collosal cave! 2nd rate 02:12:43 At the very least, programs need to know whether a block of memory is RAM or HD 02:12:48 no they don't 02:12:48 catseye, it was the first! 02:12:50 also there are no programs 02:12:55 the design is much less simplistic than you think 02:12:57 and existed in the 60s 02:13:02 (multics did a form of it iirc) 02:13:12 Vorpal: yes it has that. but it's not as cool. 02:13:17 at least, not imho. 02:13:26 catseye, being first makes it quite cool 02:13:30 "dungeon" is the best thing to ever come out of MIT. 02:13:48 okay 02:13:49 So when a thingy accidentally uses HD for something very volatile and constantly changing, what then? 02:13:52 night → 02:13:57 Sgeo: they don't get the choice. 02:13:58 Vorpal: the very very eary versions where it was just a text-based spelunking simulator: THOSE would be cool. 02:14:02 memory and HD are managed for them. properly. 02:14:03 *early 02:14:09 but i don't know if they exist anymore. 02:14:18 The OS determines what changes quickly and what doesn't? 02:14:19 catseye: well there's the first official one 02:14:26 before fantasy-type stuff got added 02:14:28 Sgeo: it's not that naive. 02:14:36 Sgeo: also, volatile stuff is still saved. for a reason. 02:14:41 elliott: really? if that's available i want to see it 02:14:45 catseye: hey, one of the questions on the ECDL test involved zork (in a minor way) 02:15:13 (ECDL = really basic IT qualification; I'm doing it at school...) 02:15:22 European Computer Driving Licence 02:15:25 says google 02:15:30 * Sgeo makes a note to self to only use EhirdOS on systems with solid-state storage 02:15:34 HEY WAIT computers sholdn't be allowed to drive! 02:15:42 *moo 02:15:49 catseye, they already do 02:15:58 MADNESS 02:16:17 Sgeo: no. 02:16:22 Sgeo: you don't understand the design at all. 02:16:25 also you miscapitalised my name 02:16:37 EHird 02:17:01 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to SGeo. 02:18:10 catseye: well@ 02:18:11 *well: 02:18:13 Crowther had explored the Mammoth Cave in the early 1970s, and created a vector map based on surveys of parts of the real cave, but the text game is a completely separate entity, created during the 1975-76 academic year [5] and featuring fantasy elements such as an axe-throwing dwarf and a magic bridge. 02:18:13 Crowther/Woods Adventure (1977) running on a PDP-10 02:18:13 The version that is best known today was the result of a collaboration with Don Woods, a graduate student who discovered the game on a computer at Stanford University[6] and made significant expansions and improvements, with Crowther's blessing. A big fan of Tolkien, he introduced additional fantasy elements, such as elves and a troll. 02:18:18 elliott: i Now haff NetBSD on a USB stuck. in some Esotericke Formatte. I need to test this 02:18:21 catseye: so it still had some fantasy stuff but less 02:18:27 catseye: explore the usb stick in GNOME 02:18:31 catseye: the files should all be there 02:19:09 yup :) 02:19:27 Crowther's original source code for Adventure (as recovered from Don Woods's student account at Stanford) 02:19:28 http://jerz.setonhill.edu/if/crowther/ 02:19:32 good luck playing it! 02:19:38 fortran code + data 02:19:51 :DDDDD 02:20:18 catseye: so you'll want adv{f4,dat}.77-03-11 02:20:25 for the earliest possible experience 02:20:30 catseye: btw that's the same don woods as intercal 02:20:33 but you probably knew that 02:20:36 yup 02:21:45 # sudo aptitude install fortran77-compiler 02:22:21 catseye: maybe i need to cat the data and source files 02:22:22 hmm 02:22:26 together, that is 02:23:16 catseye: it liketh it not 02:23:29 probably no code survives from the stage when it was just the spelunking simulator -- no fantasy. but it doubtless passed through that state 02:24:05 i have no idea about teh fortan. it would be A Project. 02:24:14 i have saved it though 02:24:21 ok, now to test 02:24:32 bbiabbiabbiabbiabbiabbiab 02:24:39 catseye: wait 02:24:44 catseye: it's backed up? 02:24:58 catseye: be careful with that partitioner btw 02:24:59 it's a bitch 02:25:01 i wonder if crowley considered himself a spelunker or a caver back then 02:25:05 also, when your selection doesn't seem to be accepted 02:25:10 and it just moves to the next-installer-thing 02:25:12 it's actually accepted 02:25:18 catseye: good luck sir 02:26:05 if (islower (opt )) opt = toupper (opt ); 02:26:07 *facepalm* 02:26:42 elliott: it's backed up 02:26:45 "caver"? 02:26:50 anyway bbl 02:26:51 catseye: good luck sir 02:26:54 i salute you 02:27:09 * catseye goes off all pomp and circumstance like 02:27:12 -!- catseye has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.2.6). 02:31:47 All of a sudden it's cold. 02:31:51 It was hot but now it's cold. 02:33:12 pikhq: :( 02:33:18 pikhq: All of a sudden I want to design a filesystem... 02:33:19 * SGeo sticks a thermometer in pikhq 02:33:44 elliott: But it would have files. 02:33:49 pikhq: Well yeah, but 02:33:53 elliott: And be insufficiently awesome. 02:34:01 How about a moneysystem 02:34:03 Unless you make it sufficiently awesome? 02:34:03 So we have money 02:34:13 ysy 02:34:22 ysys 02:34:27 ysyst 02:34:45 pikhq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_File_System#History_and_evolution Read this and tell me it doesn't make you want to design a nice little FS. 02:35:34 No hierarchies! 02:36:03 -!- catseye has joined. 02:36:10 Right, so, "it supports NetBSD" 02:36:46 "Did you bring the chicken wire and calcium carbonate?" "No Karl, I thought YOU were going to bring the chicken wire and calcium carbonate!" "Doh!" 02:36:57 MEANING 02:37:00 catseye: Restate that more coherently. 02:37:19 No, it's coherent. It just needs context. 02:37:23 It needs the name of the kernel to load. If you just select an ISO from your disk, it doesn't know that. 02:37:46 So, I guess you need to know that, although, I don't know how it knows how to read FFSv1. 02:38:00 Back to the docs in more closer examination time! 02:38:01 catseye: Hmmm. 02:38:05 It supports Linux better than that. 02:38:12 catseye: Maybe the NetBSD download option does something fancy. How quickly did the iso download? 02:38:18 Also continuing to DL 10.10 02:38:19 *ISO 02:38:38 The ISO was not too fast but not too bad. Like 10, 15 minutes? 02:38:43 catseye: Sec. 02:39:24 catseye: *groan*, the NetBSD option in unetbootin is 4.0. 02:39:25 "supply your own Linux .iso file" that is maybe a hint 02:39:32 catseye: yes, but it has bsds in the list of the things 02:39:54 yes, i thought it would be general enough to do "if this ISO boots and can handle the fact it isn't a CD, it'll go 02:39:57 " 02:39:59 but alas 02:40:05 catseye: wait, i have an idea. 02:40:16 catseye: you know that partition of the usb stick? 02:40:18 unmount it in gnome 02:40:23 >:( 02:40:34 catseye: then dd if=netbsd.iso of=/dev/sdb bs=8k (assuming /dev/sdb is your usb drive) 02:40:37 WHAt is IDEA 02:40:39 this might work 02:40:42 OH uhhh 02:40:42 since it uses the floppy emulation stuff 02:40:44 maybe 02:41:06 Oh jeez. Let me see if anyone has mentioned this 02:41:16 catseye: Hey, you can always undo it. 02:41:26 Just fdisk the stick, add a partition, mkfs.vfat; tada, back to normal. 02:42:00 http://www.bsdnexus.com/NetBSD_onastick/install_guide.php if you're already running NetBSD, great. lemme translate 02:42:35 catseye: *yes* no that won't work. 02:42:38 try my dd command 02:42:46 Do you want to change our idea of what BIOS thinks? 02:42:51 i'm not an idiot, that is the most likely thing to work from linux 02:42:52 that alone makes me hate bsd all over again 02:43:02 elliott: i don't doubt it will probably work 02:43:11 or at least, "proceed" 02:43:11 press eject next to partition in gnome 02:43:14 $ sudo dd if=netbsd.iso of=/dev/sdb bs=8k 02:43:16 just do it dammit :P 02:43:20 it'll take like three minutes 02:43:37 ok, one sec 02:43:56 catseye: make sure netbsd.iso is the actual name and make sure /dev/sdb is your usb stick 02:44:01 (basically pick the highest /dev/sd*...) 02:44:09 wiping your HD with a netbsd iso would be nasty 02:44:30 it's uh 02:44:34 lemme check 02:45:10 sdb1 02:45:19 hate all unix now 02:45:53 catseye: no 02:45:54 not sdb1 02:45:55 sdb 02:45:56 that's important 02:46:01 sdb1 won't work in this case 02:46:03 has to be sdb 02:46:13 and you must eject the partition or NO WORKY am i yelling enough 02:46:13 ok 02:46:25 eject the partwhat ok 02:46:31 BLINKING! 02:46:53 UMOUNTED! 02:46:58 catseye: okay! 02:46:59 now 02:47:02 dding 02:47:06 $ sudo dd if=NETBSD_ISO_NAME of=/dev/sdb bs=8k 02:47:07 gogogo 02:47:10 MORE BLINKING! 02:47:10 this might joust work!!!1 02:47:11 *just 02:47:16 and waiting 02:47:26 while transmission downloads 10.10 incase i can't get this to work 02:47:31 *in case 02:48:31 IT FINISH-ED 02:48:38 i guess i try reboot now 02:48:43 gimme minute 02:48:47 this is fun :) 02:49:22 what is threads? what is "caver"? BYE 02:49:23 -!- catseye has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.2.6). 02:49:34 Aaagh. So, I've got this video I want to encode, right? It's hard telecined. But *strangely*. 02:50:06 pikhq: Soft telecine! 02:50:12 Hard and soft telecine. 02:50:14 Medium telecine. 02:50:16 Ahem. 02:50:17 pikhq: Okay. 02:50:53 Near as I can tell, it's got an atypical telecine pattern. 02:51:04 * pikhq starts single-stepping to see what's going on. 02:51:29 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 02:52:17 pikhq: the main FPSes are 24, 25 and 29.97, right? 02:52:22 -!- catseye has joined. 02:52:27 catseye: No worky? 02:52:41 * catseye 02:52:48 catseye: did it even try and boot? :p 02:53:03 I press F5 to boot from USB like usual, and am greeted by a shrill BEEEP through speakers. 02:53:07 cool 02:53:13 catseye: you know what? do you have a CD or DVD of any sort 02:53:15 that can be written to 02:53:16 at all 02:53:21 elliott: 24, 24000/1001 25, 30000/1001, 30. 02:53:27 Um I have a lot of blank DVDs that are useless t me 02:53:28 pikhq: oh, fuck off :D 02:53:32 catseye: Writable? 02:53:38 Well presumably 02:53:44 catseye: Do you have a piece of equipment that can put bits onto discs? 02:53:45 By a writer 02:53:53 NO I DO NOT that is part of the motivation for this 02:54:05 catseye: okay 02:54:06 elliott: Oh, wait, there's more, but those are digital only, so hey. 02:54:07 This DVD/R is borked, at least under Ubuntu 02:54:12 elliott: NTSC-M is either 30000/1001 or (telecined) 24000/1001, system M is either 30 or (telecined) 24. 02:54:14 catseye: hmm 02:54:22 I haven't tried butning a CD, but expect same result 02:54:22 catseye: are you sure? 02:54:26 catseye: try it :P 02:54:29 it's better than this crap! 02:54:32 if you have a CD 02:54:37 I've tried it like five times 02:55:04 It always tells me "operation not supported" or some crap. But it has worked on this OS once in the past. 02:55:10 (digital TV standards, BTW, should support directly: 24, 24000/1001, 25, 30000/1001, 30, 50, 60.) 02:55:39 I am going to 10.10 since ubutniknetboo understands linux. THEN I might try NetBSD. 02:56:11 catseye: Hmm. If burning works on that Ubuntu, that will be good. 02:56:24 catseye: btw the installer sucks for partitioning 02:56:26 I can try it again, but my hopes are nil. 02:56:32 catseye: choose to install updates when installing, and partition manually 02:56:37 just put an ext4 partition in for / 02:56:39 and some swap if you want 02:56:43 elliott: the 10.10 installer? ok 02:57:12 have another hour before the 10.10 download completes 02:57:20 -!- augur has joined. 02:57:22 catseye: ah 02:57:28 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:57:28 catseye: bittorrent? 02:57:35 elliott: yes 02:57:42 pikhq: I suggest that every analogue recording should have a test pattern for a second or so that hardware viewers skip past. 02:57:55 -!- augur has joined. 02:57:56 pikhq: So that it can be seen how it differs from the original signal. 02:57:59 because i... resuming an interrupted http download does never work 02:58:02 catseye: add some web seeds 02:58:13 elliott: ok maybe how? 02:58:18 lemme look it up :D 02:58:39 keep in mind i have old retarded transmission w/o File menu 02:58:47 oh it might even predate web seeds then 02:58:50 Okay, it seems to *mostly* be 2:3 pulldown, but *parts* of it seem to be doing 1:3 pulldown or 1:4 pulldown. 02:58:54 maybe not 02:59:45 how come other irc channels are never this cool? 03:00:03 catseye: we're awesome 03:00:07 they are. frequently. cooler. 03:00:20 quintopia: orly? 03:00:23 quintopia: NAMES? 03:00:43 #scheme i'm guessing NOT on that list 03:00:45 you people are lame and would ruin my cool hangouts. 03:00:51 catseye: "THEY'RE ALL PRIVATE HURR" 03:00:57 we're cool because we have injokes 03:01:00 * pikhq sees how FUCKING CRAZY mplayer's divtc filter can be 03:01:07 and are elitist 03:01:09 oh then they're totally yeah ok 03:01:10 that is the true ~irc~ way 03:02:47 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 03:03:21 pikhq: try mplayer's pullup? 03:03:25 it can do crazy things i think 03:03:42 elliott: Not crazy enough. 03:03:45 djb should write a roguelike 03:04:01 -!- Akeelah has joined. 03:04:01 [Global-announcement] Fuck you! This spam was brought to you by #freenode, remember, node freely! 03:04:02 -!- Akeelah has left (?). 03:04:32 it's AKELA, bitch 03:05:00 well whatever, spose i can't expect inteligence from that sort 03:05:30 I still have no grasp of this "#freenode is spamming you" meme, though. 03:05:37 I mean, ... 03:05:56 catseye: because it makes people be stupid in #freenode 03:06:03 and then they themselves go in and say "WHY FREENODE SPAMMING" 03:06:10 basically it wastes staffer time in #freenode 03:06:11 These people need to watch "Airplane" or maybe "Pee-Wee's Playhouse" 03:06:42 "pee-wee's playhouse" has to be the most worrying title for anything ever 03:06:42 Maybe level up their humorbone, if that's possible. 03:07:34 -!- augur has joined. 03:07:45 It is pretty worrying. That Herman fellow was very strange, very strange indeed. 03:08:17 My mental association for Herman is Herman Toothrot. 03:08:36 http://media.photobucket.com/image/herman%20toothrot/ATMachine/mimisc/mi1amiga8.png 03:08:40 Amiga, catseye! Amiga! 03:08:50 he looks better in the pc version though. 03:08:54 http://www.scummbar.com/images/dep/mi1characters/fullQ.gif 03:09:03 I guess it's funny for the spammer to watch/ 03:09:57 Anyone want to help me label these somehow? 03:09:59 http://daychilde.com/midiguy/ 03:11:04 g'narr 03:11:39 no way. 03:11:49 it is *impossible* to describe how little i want to help you label those 03:12:30 That means you must want to help a little. "Not at all" is perfectly describable 03:12:32 wtf 03:12:41 SGeo: shut up. 03:12:45 SGeo: i want to help negative amounts 03:12:45 catseye: ? 03:12:56 Seems the least awful way to do this is going to be following pullup with a deinterlacer. 03:13:07 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:13:14 SGeo: whe... where did you get those and why do they need labelling 03:13:39 From BYOND, many years ago. It caches stuff, including MIDIs from games, and randomizes the names 03:13:52 "takefive.mid" is probably Take Five (WILD GUESS) 03:14:05 isn't that Lummox JR's stupid fucking piece of crap? 03:14:07 What's your guess for 87b672a2.mid 03:14:18 OOoh, "zoot_suit_riot.mid" 03:14:25 elliott, it's LummoxJR's, yes 03:14:37 the guy who hates linux because ... actually he never made a coherent argument 03:14:43 let me see if i can play em 03:15:28 catseye: i love how take five was written in ye olden days when 5/4 was CRAZY AND WILD 03:15:30 or something 03:16:18 SGeo: "Will You Be Mine in the Twilight of Unlambda" 03:16:49 an esoteric album would be excellent 03:16:51 i'm guessing ais523 left himself logged in 03:17:10 no ais523 is probably awake 03:17:16 his sleep schedule is worse than mine 03:19:01 Oh, the ones that don't need labels aren't from BYOND 03:19:10 Those are from AW mostly, a few from Worlds.com 03:19:41 ALPHAMAN 03:19:43 If it looks like a bastardized URL, it's from AW. Doesn't have to be URLish to be from AW though 03:19:56 And zelda_mario I labelled myself 03:20:10 *ZeldaMario 03:20:43 lol...take five isn't that old is it? dave brubeck is still around right? 03:21:03 shaddup :P 03:21:06 catseye: WHOA: 03:21:08 ^scramble mauve 03:21:09 mueva 03:21:11 ...wait. 03:21:12 never mind 03:21:59 what? 03:22:09 <3stheme 03:22:11 quintopia: It's older than Mandlebrot 03:22:21 *Mandelbrot 03:23:10 Brubeck is 90 this year, looks like 03:23:23 impressive... 03:23:34 Some of the ones that look labeled need better labels 03:23:44 I'm certain lerf.mid is not the original name 03:23:47 Same with stheme 03:23:52 The sthemes 03:24:01 the newages 03:25:09 Dc4 is Light My Fire 03:25:15 "When I Come Around" in MIDI is so... yeah 03:25:52 I don't think I've ever heard it not a MIDI 03:26:00 * catseye jaw drops 03:26:05 SGeo: BUY DOOKIE 03:26:15 * coppro enjoys this assignment 03:26:21 Not to push my musical tastes on you buy 03:26:27 *but 03:26:31 Whenever I hear the real version of some of these songs, I just get giddy with joy 03:26:37 catseye: if I'm online overnight, I'm nearly always awake 03:26:40 (The AW ones from the AWGate) 03:26:40 but rarely paying attention 03:26:55 If you were referring to "Light My Fire", then BUY ANY DOORS COMPILATION 03:26:59 when_i_come_around is one of them 03:27:00 ais523: hello then! 03:27:09 catseye, I was referring to when_i_come_around 03:27:33 Whenever I hear the real version of some of these songs, I just get giddy with joy ;; you're crazy :p 03:29:14 Dear god you cannot half of these as midi is just preposterous MOST MUSIC IS NOT HELLO 03:29:45 catseye, try to be coherent? 03:29:51 AHHHHHH Blondie's "RAPTURE" in MIDI 03:30:10 Now, I am all for video-game music. So don't get me wrong. 03:30:19 Most of what I write is video-game music. 03:30:21 That would be another AWGate song 03:30:28 I've never heard it outside of MIDI 03:30:28 "Some of my best friends are video-game music!" 03:30:34 But that's the thing. If it was *written* as video-game music, it's alight. 03:31:05 *alright 03:31:06 Well, there's a grey area, but the point is: 03:31:14 EVERY TIME YOU TAKE AN ARBITRARY ROCK SONG AND PUT IT INTO MIDI, A MUSE DIES. 03:31:39 A muse of something. Could be the muse of modern science fiction. WHo knows. 03:31:55 I'd love to see some modern progressive in MIDI. That would just be... it... I would laugh. 03:33:08 SGeo: My opinion of AW has now fallen from "undefined" to "AUUUGGGGH", based entirely on the music thing. 03:33:10 Where dose one obtain midis these days? 03:33:21 catseye, they stopped 03:33:51 At least these midis serve as source code, in a sense, if you wanted to cover them. 03:34:20 elliott: When you make your Linux distro, will you make sure that true and false are each 45 bytes? 03:35:22 SGeo: Here, get giddy with joy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCaU8LcwGTA 03:35:37 coppro: 03:35:38 elliott@dinky:~$ ls -lh /bin/true /bin/false 03:35:38 -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 23K 2010-06-11 08:24 /bin/false 03:35:38 -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 23K 2010-06-11 08:24 /bin/true 03:35:40 Sure, but... why? 03:35:50 I like the MIDI version of Kiss from a Rose better than the real version 03:35:57 true can be 0 bytes, obviously 03:36:00 coppro: That is totally a zzo38 question. 03:36:07 false can be 'exit 1\n' = 6 bytes 03:36:14 elliott: not the source 03:36:15 the binary 03:36:30 23K is hardly a minimal implementation 03:36:33 coppro: that was a binary. 03:36:46 elliott@dinky:~$ >mytrue 03:36:47 elliott@dinky:~$ chmod +x mytrue 03:36:47 elliott@dinky:~$ ./mytrue; echo $? 03:36:47 0 03:36:59 elliott@dinky:~$ echo 'exit 1' >myfalse 03:37:00 elliott@dinky:~$ chmod +x myfalse 03:37:00 elliott@dinky:~$ ./myfalse; echo $? 03:37:00 1 03:37:04 elliott: whoa 03:37:12 coppro: they get interpreted as shell scripts, obviously 03:37:13 Language where the source for true and false is both 2 bytes 03:37:16 you'd want a #!/bin/sh at the top really, but 03:37:18 elliott: oh, right 03:37:30 coppro: so why 45 bytes :p 03:37:33 that's unportable though, isn't it? 03:37:33 the smallest elf was 42 bytes 03:37:37 coppro: it is? why 03:37:48 if the default shell uses a different convention, particularly with the exit line 03:38:03 also, 45 is the smallest elf 03:39:20 -!- augur has joined. 03:39:24 or if there is some configuration that causes it to not work 03:40:42 http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/teensy.html 03:40:48 oh wait 03:40:52 it returned 42 03:40:56 coppro: note: it doesn't work any more 03:40:59 and it breaks every standard ever 03:41:15 coppro: anyway, not linux. 03:41:20 when did i say linux 03:42:03 * catseye gets maudlin 03:42:15 adventure games 03:42:19 ok, never mind 03:42:22 elliott: you've talked about making your distro among other things 03:42:28 coppro: indeed i have. 03:42:33 coppro: and? 03:44:15 I'm bringing a friend in here 03:44:21 He has questions that I don't know the answers to 03:44:44 SGeo: NO 03:44:46 NO YOU FUCKING DON'T 03:44:46 NEVER 03:44:47 EVER 03:44:47 NO 03:44:48 NO 03:44:48 NO 03:44:51 NO 03:44:51 SGeo: we will totally poison his mind. 03:44:53 NO 03:44:55 NO 03:44:57 NO 03:44:59 NOP 03:45:01 NO 03:45:35 -!- SGeo has changed nick to Sgeo. 03:46:40 -!- hyper_cube has joined. 03:46:45 Hi hyper_cube 03:46:53 hi 03:47:00 hyper_cube: goodbye 03:47:09 goodbye 03:47:27 so sgeo 03:47:55 u dont have any code idea 03:48:10 ... 03:48:17 hyper_cube: Learn to type English or go away. 03:48:19 how a program would communicate with some thing physical 03:48:21 I'm not familiar with accessing arbitrary hardware 03:48:28 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan. 03:48:39 i know my english is poor 03:49:20 that should be your gold is to turn a light bulb off and on with writing code 03:49:24 big step 03:50:28 i guess this what they call under ground 03:50:29 * Sgeo is utterly unfamiliar with that sort of hardware interaction, while most of the people here understand everything in their sleep 03:50:34 underground? 03:50:56 Um, how exactly is the light bulb connected? 03:51:06 usb 03:51:15 oerjan: was that +o for me? 03:51:28 yes 03:51:32 heh. 03:52:05 there is a #usb channel; granted there are only two people in it. 03:52:17 I.. don't know much about USB, and everyone else seems hostile, thought oerjan seems more hostile to the hostile person. I know nothng about USB :( 03:52:21 But it is the OFFICIAL channel of USB. 03:52:30 Just like we're the OFFICIAL channel of ... esoteric. 03:52:51 * oerjan doesn't know about hardware, alas 03:52:53 what is the def of esoteric 03:52:59 by the way 03:53:05 opposite of exoteric. 03:53:12 catseye: Thank you :P 03:53:15 otherwise not well defined. 03:53:19 Esotericn generally refers to unusual. This channel is about esoteric programming languages. 03:53:23 hyper_cube: this channel is about esoteric programming languages and related computing topics and the people who love them. 03:53:29 are you one of these people? 03:53:40 Languages that are interesting to thinnk about/work with/etc, but generally not practical 03:53:41 "confined to and understandable by only an enlightened inner circle" 03:53:42 and what languAGe would that be 03:53:50 hyper_cube, not just one 03:53:59 A variety, and it's often fun to make new ones 03:54:16 Brainf*ck, for exampe 03:54:17 give me some example 03:54:18 *example 03:54:22 brainfuckety fuck fuck 03:54:32 there is a disturbing proliferation of people who have no interest in esoteric programming languages here 03:54:44 elliott you not quite there are u 03:54:58 elliott is ... smart, but caustic 03:55:10 "you not quite there are u" -- i can't even attempt to parse a meaning from this. seriously. no joke. 03:55:14 what did you mean to say? 03:55:39 u need come back on your meds ? 03:55:52 how smart are u 03:55:56 hyper_cube: i was in a mental institution for 6 months or so. 03:56:04 bothered by them for anywhere between 11 months to two years. depending on your definition. 03:56:11 the half-joke is manifestly not appreciated. 03:56:16 see i reveal your true color 03:56:22 hyper_cube: wow, go fuck yourself 03:56:37 lol 03:56:42 hyper_cube, um 03:56:50 you're a moron and an asshole. this is great. 03:56:51 know you are becoming normal 03:57:07 *face-ueber-plam* 03:57:09 *palm 03:57:15 * Sgeo starts singing "Maybe, This Was a Bad Idea" 03:57:18 Oooooooooh, no 03:57:20 Sgeo: i warned you 03:57:26 oh whatever 03:57:31 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*4859958e@*.72.89.149.142. 03:57:45 That was unexpected. 03:57:58 i think if i say that it was unexpected to me too, i'll be next 03:58:02 a delightful divertimento for the evening, what? 03:58:06 so i'll utilise the use-mention distinction in the above line 03:58:32 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:58:33 * Sgeo feels torn 03:58:50 Seriously, I know nothing about USB 03:58:50 * Gregor just feels confused :P 03:58:59 who does? 03:59:07 And he's asking questions about USB, and I want to help 03:59:10 And I'm utterly clueless 03:59:32 So tell him you don't know? 03:59:36 I did 03:59:40 Although I am... not sure ... that would stop him ... yeah. 03:59:53 Then I mentioned a place that I thought would know 04:00:29 Tisk tisk :P 04:00:50 I need to write up some guidelines to give to people before bringing them here 04:01:04 Sgeo: To be absolutely frank... 04:01:11 I'm not sure he would have comprehended them. 04:01:14 Or listened to them if he did. 04:01:18 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan. 04:01:22 -!- elliott has changed nick to Frank. 04:01:24 Absolutely this dude. 04:01:26 -!- Frank has changed nick to elliott. 04:02:08 -!- catseye1 has joined. 04:02:27 i do wish elliott would have been more polite to a newbie until he _proved_ himself rude. i was tempted to kickban both. 04:02:52 oerjan: i have enough experience with sgeo's friends. ok so the first "goodbye" was unwarranted 04:02:55 but then he used "u" 04:03:01 well 04:03:02 u dont have any code idea 04:03:06 if he had said like 04:03:14 "so u dont have any ideas for the usb interface code?" 04:03:34 but...no, sorry, i just can't imagine anyone even vaguely worthwhile saying that line. 04:03:45 feel free to kickban me, i'm collecting them 04:04:11 It occurs to me that he might have assumed that I already described what he wanted before he came here 04:05:01 -!- catseye has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:05:08 i have? 04:05:10 oh 04:05:12 -!- catseye1 has changed nick to catseye. 04:06:53 well, on some level, it is sad that modern computers have such high-level interfaces to the outside world that you cannot start to use unless you buy some communicator package, or understand an overcomplicated spec 04:07:16 hyperintegration. 04:07:35 on the other hand, so what 04:08:05 if you want to control hardware, learn PIC 04:09:18 lots of good books on microcontrollers, and the smell of solder is unbeatable! 04:09:38 catseye: are you drunk or tired? 04:09:44 elliott: a bit of both. 04:09:57 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Anyway, _I'm_ tired. Good night.). 04:10:01 also, i miss the smell of solder 04:10:35 catseye: how goes 10.10 04:11:21 yer just lucky i haven't waxed poetical about adventure games. OH 10.10 still has... a half hour??? bah. 04:11:55 they had to make it the full 650M. 04:12:08 couldn't stop at 250M like netbsd. 04:12:10 catseye: kitten will be, like, 100 mb livecd. :p 04:12:13 maybe 200 mb 04:12:16 mib that is 04:12:17 whatever 04:12:19 that would be nice! 04:12:32 * pikhq really needs to eat 04:12:54 catseye: it'll basically just be the core + the default-ish configuration of programs constituting the "desktop environment" (or maybe just xfce :P) + a browser + the installer tool 04:13:03 catseye: it doesn't have to include all the packages in the system, because they're installed from the network 04:13:09 (which also means it always installs the latest version) 04:13:10 Someday I'm going to introduce someone who won't be a trainwreck in this channel 04:13:20 i think i used xfce once, after blackbox. 04:13:23 so basically it just has to be the default graphical environment, a browser of some sort, and the installer. 04:13:25 so. 04:13:27 100 - 200 mib. 04:13:39 elliott: if only X wasn't an architectural nightmare. 04:13:40 probably closer to 100. 04:13:42 150? 04:13:43 catseye: ugh, yeah. 04:14:03 catseye: there's smallx/tinyx but that's not really... maintained at all and it's ancient 04:14:06 but it was a proof of concept 04:14:11 catseye: there's kdrive which i'll probably use by default 04:14:16 catseye: which is now part of xorg, but: 04:14:21 elliott: i tried to fork svgalib once, but it was already obsolete (my ostensible goal was to get it working on dfly, and to clean it up) 04:14:22 catseye: basically every server has one set of drivers 04:14:24 you have Xvesa 04:14:27 which just uses vesa 04:14:33 and has a generic keyboard/mouse drive 04:14:34 *driver 04:14:37 and it's pretty damn small 04:14:42 or you have Xfbdev, uses the framebuffer 04:14:48 and then there's Xfoo for a handful of cards 04:14:54 but not like nvidia or ati or intel or anything that needs full X.org 04:15:02 but i'll probably ship xvesa as the default 04:15:07 a lot of the bloat comes from libx11 though 04:15:08 :/ 04:15:09 the X windows protocol reminds me of the optic nerve (er, what R.D. said about the optic nerve in... the blind watchmaker, i think) 04:15:27 never seen "R.D." before :) 04:15:30 "you'd never design it that way, but that's what evolved, so that's what we have 04:15:35 (Richard Dawkins0 04:15:42 (finding it hard to type :) 04:15:43 catseye: but X11 was designed! 04:15:44 that's the worst thing 04:15:49 elliott: YES. 04:16:06 catseye: on his livejournal stanislav posted that he was switching majors to biology 04:16:08 Has anyone ever had anything good to say about X? 04:16:10 at least we have vesa. 04:16:14 because he could accept useless complexity from nature 04:16:16 but not from people 04:16:19 *pointless, whatever 04:16:25 Sgeo: yes. they were all on crack at the time 04:16:35 and they called it the X11 specification meeting 04:16:42 Is X11 so bad? Yes, most client implementations are bad... 04:16:51 Ilari: As is the server architecture. 04:16:54 As is the network protocol. 04:16:56 As are the two libraries. 04:17:13 What.. how does Windows work> 04:17:15 ? 04:17:21 Sgeo: It has the GUI in the kernel. 04:17:22 Most X11 clients synchronize way way too much. 04:17:28 BLIBBER 04:17:37 The kernel has window management functionality in a separate GUI module, and also GUI widget functions that draw inside these windows. 04:17:40 It's all done at kernel level. 04:17:51 This is also why Windows' GUI is -- well, was -- fast and responsive. 04:17:54 Especially compared to X11. 04:17:56 -!- catseye1 has joined. 04:18:06 hi catseye1 04:18:20 That also means no choice 04:18:26 No changing to a different window manager 04:18:35 Sgeo: well there's windowblinds. ha! 04:18:51 I wonder why that keeps happening 04:19:02 catseye1: zionists 04:19:17 elliott: AND "nordics" 04:19:33 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wusGIl3v044 dear GOD. 04:20:13 -!- catseye has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:20:21 they're going to murder me. 04:20:51 -!- catseye1 has changed nick to catseye. 04:20:59 http://www.theonion.com/articles/cyclist-friend-explains-necessity-of-35-socks,18259/ 04:21:01 my internet has decided to be ass tonight, it seems 04:21:02 NSFW 04:21:40 thankfully i am not AT work, at 10:21PM on a Saturday... 04:22:02 Sgeo: TEXT CANNOT BE NSFW 04:22:20 also, onion is onion 04:22:32 Well, never know if any easily offended children snuck on here recently 04:22:41 I am in the midwest. It is available, free, from metal boxes, on the street corners. 04:22:59 Sgeo: then i hope they get offended 04:23:16 catseye: the onion start with the title and write with the article, and by god does it show. 04:23:38 "HOLY SHIT, MAN WALKS ON FUCKING MOON" was excellent though. 04:24:07 elliott: yeah. 04:26:57 catseye: anyway software sucks. isn't that something? 04:27:09 elliott: Zoombah! 04:27:20 i ... totally 04:27:29 I was going for something more Douglas-Adams-like, but that was... what came out. 04:27:38 "Freeow." 04:27:54 Or maybe "Foop." 04:28:51 -!- augur has joined. 04:28:52 sgeo is a p cool dude 04:29:27 eh invites mrons to chanell and doesnt afraid of anything? 04:30:05 eh seems less elitist and..etc. 04:30:12 catseye: explain why these aren't in C: 04:30:14 #define ITEMS(a) (sizeof(a) / sizeof((a)[0])) 04:30:14 #define FOREACH(i,a) for ((i) = 0; (i) < ITEMS(a); (i)++) 04:30:15 catseye: go! 04:30:39 quintopia: Seriously? You say how your channels that you won't tell us about are better then you call someone less elitist than us for inviting an abject moron? 04:30:41 I mean... come on. 04:30:59 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:31:17 elliott: because you can #define them? 04:31:40 catseye: you can #define an awful lot of stuff in C :P 04:31:51 C is pretty cool, but not perfect. but imperfect in a way that is... dealable-with. 04:32:13 elliott: come on? i'm already here, and yep you summed up my position pretty accurately. 04:32:34 quintopia: The hypocrisy is immense. 04:32:37 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:33:07 "You're not cool enough for us" -- elitism; "He's less elitist than you guys, he invited an idiot who couldn't spell and insulted people rather than saying anything coherent" -- an insane level of anti-elitism 04:33:09 -!- augur has joined. 04:33:45 yeah, you mischaracterized it that time 04:34:03 the "not cool enough" should be "too assholish and argumentative" 04:34:12 (not all of you!) 04:35:24 quintopia: did you even see the guy who came in? 04:35:49 are you seriously saying we should have talked to him? despite the fact that he didn't say anything coherent or even vaguely on-topic and just came in because Sgeo had no idea what to do with him? 04:37:24 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 04:37:43 Shall I mention that I know him irl? 04:38:15 -!- hyper_cube has joined. 04:38:24 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 04:38:30 sgeo 04:38:34 are u there 04:38:39 ... 04:38:42 hyper_cube: you were banned. 04:38:46 you are circumventing a ban. 04:38:47 cease. 04:38:50 i am smarten then u 04:38:57 elli 04:39:01 ok. let me repeat this in words you can understand 04:39:02 \dont be suprise 04:39:04 Hyper, please don't get into this argument 04:39:04 hyper_cube: fuck off you moron. 04:39:14 * catseye has not the number of faces nor the number of palms sufficient for this situation 04:39:20 Please, I'm begging you, don't insult the regulars 04:39:38 okay i will leave 04:39:49 i just illustrtating how smart i am 04:39:55 For what it's worth, elliott regularly runs circles around me mentally 04:40:08 * elliott runs in circles 04:40:10 Like a DAWG. 04:40:11 Evading bans is not co sidered smart here 04:40:22 FWIW, this is not about smart. This is about civil and sane. OK? 04:40:36 yes. that 04:41:09 evading bans is a sign of a) nonzero intelligence and b) zero social skill 04:41:20 Was hyper banned? Or just kicked? 04:41:23 coppro: non-zero perhaps, but not non-infinitesimal 04:41:25 SgeoN1: banned. 04:41:29 hyper_cube: You must be a moron. 04:41:33 * oerjan sets ban on *!*4859958e@*.72.89.149.142 04:41:33 * oerjan has kicked hyper_cube from #esoteric (hyper_cube) 04:41:41 I mean there are certain minimum levels of smart involved in "civil", but you get the idea. 04:41:43 pikhq: that has been proved to excess earlier. 04:41:47 It could have expired 04:41:52 SgeoN1: no it couldn't 04:41:54 and besides 04:41:56 thats wierd sgeo bye technology is here to be hornase and share do 04:41:57 he's on a webchat 04:42:04 *the webchat 04:42:08 -!- hyper_cube has quit (Client Quit). 04:42:09 elliott: infinitesimals don't exist :( 04:42:10 hyper_cube: can you hurry up with the going away thing? 04:42:11 since when did dotted quads have four dots? 04:42:12 also the never going back thing 04:42:13 yay 04:42:19 *coming 04:42:21 coppro: sure they do 04:42:33 coppro: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-standard_analysis 04:42:35 "exist". 04:42:46 the way more beautiful expression of calculus etc :) 04:42:49 *harnessed and *shared I think 04:43:03 now taking bets on how long until he comes back 04:43:15 For the record, I did not ask him to come back 04:43:16 yeah that guy is annoying. sgeo is not as annoying as that guy. how did you find a guy like that sgeo? 04:43:25 If you're evading a ban, you are *certainly* missing the point. If you want back in the channel, demonstrate to an op that you will behave. Otherwise, fuck off. 04:43:46 pikhq: i've evaded bans here! admittedly the bans were ones i asked an op for after +o came and my insanity set in. 04:44:02 elliott: Yes, but that's different. 04:44:49 I know a person who asked for a ban a very long time ago in a channel and it's enforced to this day. He attempts to join every now and then and gets kbed by the bot. 04:45:11 coppro: has he asked an op to revoke it? 04:45:17 if so, then i conclude that the ops are basically dicks. 04:45:25 elliott: AFAIK he has not 04:45:41 but no op has gone "oh that ban was dumb let's remove it" 04:45:48 so hey coppro HOW IS MY MATHNEWS ARTICLE DOING IN THE PIPELINE 04:45:53 >:) 04:46:18 was about to ask him how many vertices he had. 04:46:23 [coppro has an epileptic fit and implodes] 04:46:28 but, that's the wrong direction to go. 04:46:42 catseye: heh 04:46:44 took me a while to get that 04:47:45 Bleh. I made a new recording of Op. 10 but it didn't come out very well >_> 04:48:00 Gregor: re-record op 13 04:48:09 elliott: ... 04:48:40 Re-record Op. 0 04:48:53 * pikhq hands Gregor a time machine so that there can *be* an Op. 0 04:49:31 I know I once did something really stupid in a channel 04:49:35 Gregor: music has been redefined as "any action". Start tossing pillowcasefuls of ball bearings onto construction sites plz 04:49:42 said it was stupid enough to be kickbanned, asked for ops and they gave it to me 04:49:56 (and I did actually kickban myself with them, but someone unbanned me soon after) 04:50:09 ais523: whatdidyoudowhatdidyouDO 04:50:22 WHAT HAS TOBE DONE??? 04:50:22 set a puzzle for which the intended answer was incorrect 04:50:34 since when is that kickban-worthy :P 04:50:44 and as a result, missed it when people got the actually right answer 04:53:47 I am sick enough to make reading a book a hard task. God dammit. 04:54:03 My options are: waste time web browsing. 04:54:09 I do too much of that when I'm healthy! 04:54:27 elliott: software sucks because two reasons. one it is intrinsically hard because of hating poblem ETC. two, people are jerkasses who don't care if they've done right. 04:54:39 read the entirety of TV Tropes so you never have to waste time on it again 04:54:44 *halting problem. 04:55:01 It's not just TV Tropes. 04:55:02 Do IRC bans expire? 04:55:05 Though that's a major problem. 04:55:07 I like the concept of a hating problem 04:55:12 Sgeo: no, they have to be removed by an op 04:55:18 or by services, but services don't unless they're told to 04:55:26 By an op. 04:55:29 some really large channels have an opbot whose main purpose is expiring bans 04:55:33 catseye: so Robin, how long until it's implemented 04:55:48 ais523: yeah, i liked the hating problem too. 04:56:29 elliott: well, a long time probably, although you might have guessed, pixley + message passing + modules is what i'm now thinking about for a base language. 04:56:43 catseye: oh ha. 04:57:08 catseye: you might want to take the route of "it's an OS with its own little simulated memory space and display but it's running in user space" thing. i find that a bit weird, but 04:57:12 i mean, if Nock can be considered a decent core language (though it can't be, really, can it??), then... 04:57:21 i guess it does let you prototype high-level OS ideas really easily 04:57:31 catseye: well with Nock you have jets which are basically cheating, but :) 04:57:49 catseye: sounds like a standard example in Ramsey theory 04:58:18 well, once you are able to import symbols and send messages to and from processes which (to you) are just interfaces, you have what are effectively "jets" too, so... 04:58:43 (that would be how i would handle that, anyway) 04:58:56 ARGH 04:58:57 I AM MADE OF FAIL 04:59:10 Gregor: Concurred. 04:59:22 catseye: sounds like a standard example in Ramsey theory 04:59:23 ? 04:59:29 Tho to be *made* of fail is actually something of a feat, so yeah! 04:59:32 When the cord on my headphones is giving out, causing them to switch to mono left channel (AKA bass channel), the treble sucks! 04:59:44 was just about to google Ramsey theory actually 05:00:11 BUT WAS DISTRACTED BY GIMME SLOW PIZZA VIDEO AARGH 05:01:18 GIMMEEEE PIZZAAAAAAAAA 05:01:22 *stares into your soul* 05:01:38 ais523: what sounds like that 05:01:40 ais523: (example) 05:01:50 catseye: ramsey theory gave us graham's number 05:02:33 elliott: oh, you have six people, each pair either loves each other or hates each other 05:02:40 prove that there's some set of three people that mutually love or mutually hate 05:02:43 ais523: oh hating problem ok 05:02:48 I think that is /the/ standard Ramsey theory example 05:04:34 ok, i get that much, but yes, what sounds like this? an OS based on a sliver of scheme with some toys pasted in? 05:05:11 toys = comminication mechanisms, really 05:05:33 catseye: he never said anything looked liek that 05:05:35 *like 05:05:36 just "hating problem" 05:05:40 catseye: link me to robin again? 05:06:03 "ais523 | catseye: sounds like a standard example in Ramsey theory" unclear what this is in reference to 05:06:10 elliott: it's out of date! but i can try to find it again 05:06:20 catseye: to "hating theory" 05:06:21 like VERY out ofd ate 05:06:23 *PROBLEM 05:06:26 OHHH 05:06:26 I HAVE EXPLAINED THIS N TIMES 05:06:42 hating theory, friends, strangers. OH KAY! 05:07:02 *PROBLEM too 05:07:03 catseye: you saying you liked the hating problem too 05:08:20 elliott: http://catseye.tc/lab/robin/robin.html WAY out of date but there you go 05:08:53 ais523: as a mathematician, what do you see as more fundamental: multiplication, or addition? 05:09:03 multiplication makes more sense than addition! 05:09:05 it hink 05:09:06 *i think 05:09:15 catseye: ais523 isn't exactly a mathematician, is he... 05:09:23 Multiplication is multiset addition over the multisets of prime factors. 05:09:27 well i'm extracting his mathematician aspect 05:09:28 ais523: you're doing electrical engineering right? 05:09:35 elliott: computer science nowadays 05:09:37 because you're crazy and masochistic 05:09:41 ais523: oh you came over to the light side 05:09:44 the electronic engineering is finished, I'm qualified in that now 05:10:02 as a computer scientist, multiplication feels more fundamental 05:10:11 it's much easier to implement in terms of Church numerals, for instance 05:10:19 yeah addition is like 05:10:23 you have to decompose the number on the right 05:10:25 and stack it on to the left 05:10:25 (in fact, with Church numerals, even exponentiation is easier than addition) 05:10:28 whereas multiplication is just... 05:10:30 the numbers are atomic 05:10:34 you don't feel like you're deconstructing them 05:10:42 you're using the one on the right (or left, whatever) as a loop 05:10:47 yeah, i'm on the side of multiplication too. even in an abstract setting. which is a little weird, since it can be defined with addition. 05:10:50 "M, N times" 05:11:09 whereas with addition... you basically have to phrase it as taking little Ses off a peano numeral and stacking them on to another 05:11:12 which is just weird. 05:11:14 VLC manages to put buttons in the taskbar preview thingy? 05:11:40 catseye: so you've given up on ρ? 05:11:46 plus, fundamental theory of arithmetic, and all. it's like there are two ways to get to any integer. but one is boring and the other is exciting. 05:12:05 *theorem, presumably 05:12:09 elliott: well, sort of. i mean, it has spun off a number of interesting sub-projects. 05:12:19 yes *theorem 05:12:22 "It's only a theory!" 05:12:29 "Like GRAVITY and EVILUTION." 05:12:40 catseye: is stupidernestine still there? 05:12:54 haven't thought about that in a while 05:13:09 If a+b = ln [e^a * e^b], what's a?b = ln [e^a + e^b] 05:13:18 How does ? behave? 05:13:39 Hmm 05:13:41 it behaves like ln(e^a + e^b) 05:13:59 I think it's base dependent. The multuplication thing works just as well in other bases 05:14:04 that would have taken me a while, but yes it behaves something like that 05:14:37 You guys are no fun 05:15:05 Sgeo: I don't think it's "clean" 05:15:36 Any chance that addition is just repeated ? 05:15:37 ? 05:16:14 well, take a = 1 and b = 1 05:16:26 exp(1)+exp(1) 05:16:28 5.4365636569180902 05:16:38 log(exp(1)+exp(1)) 05:16:39 1.6931471805599452 05:16:46 that's what you get 05:17:09 1 ? 1 ~= 1.7 05:17:14 it's not + 05:17:23 That sucks 05:17:35 it's APPROXIMATITION 05:18:04 2?2 = 2 + log(2) 05:18:19 10?10 = 10 + log(2) 05:18:21 see a similarity? 05:18:44 10?50 = 10 + log(1 + e^40) 05:19:00 10?12 = 10 + log(1 + e^2) 05:19:01 Sgeo: conclusion: 05:19:11 a?b = a + log(1 + e^(b-a)) 05:19:43 How would you get there from the defintion? 05:19:50 but is it *safe* 05:19:55 Sgeo: wolfram alpha 05:20:00 plug in random valuse 05:20:01 *values 05:20:03 see the alternate form 05:20:04 notice pattern 05:20:20 Can we prove it? 05:20:37 Or is this a weird true but unprovable thing? 05:20:40 probably. properties of log? 05:20:41 of course we can prove it. 05:20:49 true but unprovable things are 345897589375x more complicated than this and rare. 05:21:06 yes but "we" are easily distracted 05:21:13 indeed. 05:21:38 Sgeo: anyway uh, i can't think of a useful use for this operation 05:21:39 ln(e^a + e^b) = ln(2e^a +e^b-e^a) 05:21:42 but that isn't to say there isn't one 05:21:44 also, say log, not ln 05:21:46 ln is for losers 05:21:53 I learned it as ln 05:22:01 log is base 10 05:22:04 no 05:22:06 it really isn't 05:22:36 ln is freaky engineering talk 05:23:02 or CS 05:23:06 I wanted something "below" addition, so to speak 05:23:19 coppro: i'd say ln is only common in the rubbish, software-engineering brand of CS. 05:23:19 in CS, log is normally to base 2 because that's the one that matters 05:23:38 i dunno about that 05:23:41 i'd say log_2 05:23:43 elliott: well, it just so happens that log_e is not very useful in CS. But it would be called ln whenever that occurs 05:23:59 elliott: the running time of mergesort is O(n * log n) etc. 05:24:05 coppro: true. 05:24:15 who needs log when you have kolgomorov complexity! (what?) 05:24:16 But in O notation, the base is irrelevant 05:24:51 Sgeo: true, but not for other bound notations, and by convention log is base 2 in those as well 05:25:29 such as little o 05:25:33 * Sgeo doesn't know the other notations :( 05:27:47 2 is more "natural" than that 2.7 thing, in CS :0 05:28:36 * coppro is going to start referring to sinusoidal time on the basis that O(x) = O(sin x) 05:28:37 * Sgeo is glad humans live on timescales where basic computation doesn't take up our natural lives 05:28:46 computers should use base e! 05:28:47 Wait, what? 05:28:56 How does O(x) = O(sin x)? 05:29:06 coppro: O(sin x) *weird* 05:29:19 ALGORITHMS DO NOT DO THAT 05:29:33 So... It varies between 1 and 0 time sinusoidally? 05:29:33 i mean, they totally SHOULD 05:29:44 pikhq: 1 and -1! 05:29:50 Ah, right. 05:29:54 O(2 + sin x) 05:29:57 It can sometimes do time travel. 05:30:01 Sgeo: same set 05:30:06 err 05:30:08 equivalence class 05:30:19 big-O defines equivalence classes, which is cool 05:30:29 as it so happens, sin x and x are in the same such class 05:30:38 O(sin x), i approve of this 05:30:44 How are they the same such class? 05:30:45 Make it happen. 05:30:48 make an algorithm with that complexity 05:31:07 Finding an item in a linked list. 05:31:07 Sgeo: it follows simply from the definition of big-O 05:31:07 DONE 05:31:16 Sgeo: ...what? 05:31:19 Sgeo: Constant factors are irrelevant by definition. 05:31:20 how is that O(sin x) 05:31:21 at all 05:31:23 as it so happens, sin x and x are in the same such class 05:31:30 yes, but 05:31:37 O(sin x) has certain connotations. 05:31:39 to someone who sees it. 05:31:58 yes, but math doesn't care 05:32:00 that's why it's amusing 05:32:09 But big-O says you're wrong and that yo mamma so fat that she has O(x^x) complexity. 05:32:27 (although actually the algorithmic notations were invented for things other than algorithms) 05:32:34 O(n^934873489374983749347934) 05:32:36 coppro: indeed 05:32:39 Does it make sense to talk about n complexity or sin n complexity, without the O? 05:32:55 Sgeo: you *can* 05:33:01 no one *does* 05:33:08 or, at least, rarely 05:33:14 Sgeo: It'll probably be considered a shorthand for big-O notation. 05:33:14 the problem is it's ambiguous 05:33:23 probably it will be assumed to be big-O 05:33:24 But, yeah, it's ambiguous. 05:33:26 Goodnight. 05:33:26 There. We want an algorithm with a complexity of the form a + b sin c*n 05:33:28 Bye. 05:33:32 but it could just as easily be big-Omega 05:33:33 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Connection reset by peer review). 05:33:38 You're getting into the area of "This program executed this many instructions on this architecture" 05:33:57 catseye: I want *that* to be sinusoidal. 05:34:02 :D 05:34:02 I thought I just abstracted that away! 05:36:26 I just joined #inform 05:36:36 The only one there besides me is ChanServ' 05:37:59 Your "besides me" implies something that happens to be false -- namely, your presense there 05:38:30 Sgeo: am big confused 05:39:45 Sgeo: my presence there was not false. and I don't see how "besides me" implies something false. 05:40:06 Bleh, I guess at the time you said it you were there 05:40:11 -!- augur has joined. 05:42:43 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:42:53 wow, there is an ##electronics 05:43:23 Mmmm. 05:43:25 Bananas. 05:43:26 and it has a million jillion users 05:45:18 Gregor knows about the bananas. 05:45:51 I have the power! 05:45:53 The power of /list! 05:57:31 Sgeo: I apologize, I made a typo earlier 05:57:47 it is not x and sin x are not in the same big-O complexity class 05:57:50 rather, sin x and 1 are 05:57:54 which is what I meant all along 05:58:06 time to test 10.10-on-a-usb-stick. 05:58:17 -!- catseye has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.2.6). 05:59:09 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: Welcome honored guest. I got the key you want! would you like onderves. of Yourself). 06:00:42 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:05:41 -!- DrNinja has joined. 06:06:00 Dr. MCNinja? 06:06:06 it totally works. i am booted into ubuntu 10.10 right now. 06:06:31 so... i need to consider what to do next. 06:06:39 oh, it thinks it's 5:06 AM. 06:06:47 STUPID MACHINE. 06:06:53 AT&T Unix SysV bootable USB disk! 06:07:10 maybe but also no. 06:07:11 -!- DrNinja has quit (Client Quit). 06:08:18 忍者医師?(ninnsìȳaisi?)[ninjaishi?]{Dr. Ninja?} 06:11:21 -!- zzo38 has joined. 06:13:15 I need more enclosing punctuation. 06:13:40 Why? 06:14:11 Hmm. On my keyboard, just (){}[]<>. Adding compose, I get... “”‘’‹›«», I think. 06:14:26 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to BenFranklin. 06:14:28 Don't have compose keys for Japanese quotes? 06:15:47 Hmm. IME... 「」【】『』〔〕〈〉<>《》(){} 06:16:03 zzo38: IT COMES UP 06:19:07 70%! 06:20:51 -!- BenFranklin has changed nick to SgeoMcSgeo. 06:22:34 THERE WAS AN AXE COP/DR. MCNINJA CROSSOVER? 06:22:41 WHY WAS I NOT INFORMED OF THIS? 06:36:01 Do you know why Enhanced CWEB does not work on FreeBSD, apparently? 06:36:58 It does work fine on Windows and on Linux, but apparently it does not work on FreeBSD. I hope to correct this problem. 06:38:45 pikhq: Can you give the example why more enclosing punctuation is needed? Depending what you do, perhaps things like <|....|> or (|....|) can be used? 06:54:44 zzo38: those sorts of punctuation are usable in perl 6 for user-defined sorts of parentheses 06:54:50 to avoid clashes with the built in parentheses 06:54:55 that is, () [] {} <> «» 06:55:26 ais523: Can you use other unicode enclosing punctuations? 06:55:40 yes, they just don't have default meanings like those five do 06:55:45 so you need to define them explicitly 06:56:09 oh, there's also '' "" // but those aren't exactly enclosing 07:18:24 -!- augur has joined. 07:47:06 -!- SgeoMcSgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:08:33 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:04:32 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:08:31 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (Quit: Reconnecting). 09:08:40 -!- Ilari has quit (Quit: Reconnecting). 09:10:28 -!- Ilari has joined. 09:11:03 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined. 09:12:07 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:12:46 -!- augur has joined. 09:38:31 -!- Ijophone has joined. 09:40:32 -!- Ijophone has left (?). 10:13:44 -!- Wamanuz4 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:14:08 -!- Wamanuz4 has joined. 10:38:42 -!- asiekierka has joined. 10:38:44 hello 10:59:13 -!- FireFly has joined. 11:24:19 -!- tombom has joined. 11:43:32 -!- EgoBot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:47:43 -!- HackEgo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 11:49:55 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:13:05 -!- Gregor has joined. 12:13:32 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Guest32752. 13:10:22 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:18:47 * catseye has not the number of faces nor the number of palms sufficient for this situation 13:19:03 * oerjan pictures catseye looking like an indian god 13:23:03 oerjan, what as the context? 13:23:38 the person i banned came back to gloat 13:24:25 after i went to sleep 13:26:43 fortunately he eventually listened to Sgeo, who knows him 13:39:06 21:24:51 Sgeo: true, but not for other bound notations, and by convention log is base 2 in those as well 13:39:09 21:25:29 such as little o 13:39:27 um the base is quite irrelevant for o as well. constant multiplier. 13:40:57 21:30:19 big-O defines equivalence classes, which is cool 13:40:57 21:30:29 as it so happens, sin x and x are in the same such class 13:41:43 only for limits at zero. not for complexity, which uses limits at infinity. 13:43:02 or, certainly not if it's to hold for all x, large and small 13:47:33 rather, sin x and 1 are 13:47:36 ah. 13:52:56 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:01:57 iwc XD 14:02:53 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 14:07:59 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 14:16:50 -!- Quadresce` has joined. 14:16:52 -!- Quadresce` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:19:38 -!- elliott has joined. 14:20:56 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 14:21:56 xR 14:21:59 whoops 14:26:10 wikilawyering at its best: 14:26:10 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion#Template:Two_other_uses 14:43:15 "One Is Enough, a 2D platform game in which a communist ball needs to convert capitalist balls into fellow communist balls. More and more capitalist balls will be issued by the bank, creating new enemies." 14:44:51 speaking of 2D platform games, i played through a flash game called "The Tall Stump" last night. It was quite challenging. 14:46:13 so you were stumped? 14:47:14 nah i beat it 14:47:23 i only found 3 hats though 14:48:58 apparently if you play all the way through without pausing, you can submit your time to the high score list 14:49:28 -!- Wamanuz5 has joined. 14:49:29 and if you find all the hats, you can unlock the wearable clock, which deducts a minute if you finish wearing it 14:52:12 -!- Wamanuz4 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 14:53:16 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:53:28 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 15:03:13 hm 15:05:02 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 15:08:37 fizzie, which was the multicast daemon you recommended? was it mrd6 or some other? 15:19:57 mrd6 i believe, yes. 15:19:58 check logs. 15:23:06 -!- wareya has joined. 15:25:33 Yes, mrd6; I've heard of it, though not tried it out. 15:26:32 -!- wareya_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:30:53 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 15:36:08 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 15:42:19 interesting kolgomorov complexity question: 15:42:41 can a program that outputs (a program that outputs X) be smaller than the smallest program that outputs X? 15:43:43 (language may vary but nothing tweaked specifically to make this true) 15:44:07 obviously you could have a "zoop" instruction that outputs for(i=0;i<1000;i++){print("hi")} 15:48:24 i believe this to be possible 15:49:26 for instance, if you are writing the program for the GoL UCC that replicates the same 15:49:56 the program that builds the program into the machine is necessarily much smaller than the machine itself by any reasonable definition 15:50:17 quintopia: well kolgomorov complexity is not well-defined there. 15:50:28 "smaller than the *smallest* program that outputs X" is important 15:50:48 it's saying: K(X where run(X) = Y) < K(Y) 15:50:54 which is an interesting property about the language 15:51:15 i was not offering a proof, just an intuition that leads me to believe it is possible 15:51:16 of course, any X can be used there 15:51:18 aaaaargh this makefile makes me want to headdesk. It uses @strip in the rule for linking the program. So that is why make CFLAGS='-g' did not work.... 15:51:21 even a super-long program that outputs Y 15:51:30 and the @ is especially nasty 15:51:32 as long as the program outputting X is smaller than the *smallest* program outputting Y 15:51:33 quintopia: ok 15:51:43 Vorpal: nasty. 15:51:47 elliott, indeed 15:51:49 Vorpal: makefiles should have DEBUG flags 15:51:55 DEBUG=1 turns off optimisation, turns on -g and doesn't strip 15:51:57 make DEBUG=1 15:52:30 elliott, yeah and well, programs shouldn't strip at all when compiling them, only perhaps when installing them 15:52:43 Vorpal: well. i like to think of installs as just a copy 15:52:45 elliott, and it should never ever call strip and hide it from output with @ 15:52:49 i.e. if you can make it run from inside the build tree, it should work the same 15:52:56 strpping on a non-debug compile is reasonable methinks 15:52:58 Vorpal: but yeah the @ thing is evil 15:53:02 unless it's doing 15:53:07 @echo STRIP foo 15:53:09 @strip ... foo 15:53:12 elliott, it isn't 15:53:14 which is quite common in makefiles 15:53:14 right 15:53:30 elliott, it isn't even consistent in hiding calls to gcc and such 15:53:33 just strip 15:53:36 >_< 15:53:42 err wait 15:53:46 elliott, sorry. I was wrong: 15:53:50 CC:= @echo "[Compiling] $$@"; $(CC) 15:53:54 that is so utterly stupid 15:54:03 [Compiling]? seriously? 15:54:09 what happened to "CC" 15:54:14 Vorpal: and assigning it to CC, wow. 15:54:16 elliott, see the end 15:54:16 i'm gonna barf now 15:54:22 i mean 15:54:25 elliott, that only works thanks to := 15:54:27 what happened to "CC file" 15:54:28 as the output 15:54:33 did we need to make it longer :P 15:54:41 elliott, since otherwise CC would resolved at use 15:54:47 := forces it to resolve it at assignment 15:54:48 >_< 15:55:13 elliott, as a "side effect" := will also prevent make CC=clang or such from working 15:55:17 well, here it works 15:55:19 hate 15:55:23 elliott, since it is used in the override 15:55:27 it will work here 15:55:28 but yeah 15:55:52 elliott, anyway clang doesn't work on that. It complains about unknown option -fshort-enums 15:55:58 and well, you can't just ignore that option 15:56:00 it would break ABI 15:56:16 WARNS= -W -Wall -pedantic -Wshadow -Wpointer-arith -Wcast-align -Wwrite-strings -Waggregate-return -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes -Wmissing-declarations -Wredundant-decls -Wnested-externs -Winline -Wbad-function-cast -fshort-enums -fstrict-aliasing -fno-common -Wpacked -Wpadded 15:56:17 what the fuck 15:56:22 it isn't only warns 15:56:26 it is ABI changing stuff too 15:56:33 and uh, why 15:56:51 Vorpal: What is this program with such WTF-class makefile? 15:56:52 -fno-common? seriously 15:58:29 Ilari, ecmh. A ipv6 MLDv1/v2 multicast routing daemon, which according to some googling is what sixxs recommends for POPs that can do multicast but aren't connected directly to m6bone, mrd6 apparently doesn't work very well there. 15:58:41 if you trust sixxs. 15:59:05 elliott, I don't in general, and I think I'm going to give mrd6 a try and see if it can be made to work with it 15:59:27 maybe whatever bug made it fail before is now fixed 16:00:03 i would like ipv6. 16:00:13 Vorpal: remind me to switch to Bogons sometime 16:00:16 thx :P 16:00:33 just wish they were cheaper! 16:00:45 elliott, oh btw, where you here when I got ipsec tunneling to work? 16:00:50 elliott, for VPN 16:00:50 no. 16:01:07 elliott: let's say you have a program A that outputs "Hello World" and the listing of program B and program B outputs "Hello" and a listing of program A. Is there any reason to believe that the shortest programs that satisfy this description are the same length? 16:01:18 elliott, ah, well, it is crazy under linux. You would expect most tunnels to use some sort of "pseudo interface" or such right? 16:01:46 quintopia: hmm. no. 16:02:01 Vorpal: linux uses a daemon? a kernel module pretending to be a daemon? 16:02:02 a walrus? 16:02:15 Well, Linux has TUN and TAP interfaces... 16:03:22 elliott, linux uses some strange routing policy rules and no pseudo interfaces for ipsec tunnels. If you use wireshark on eth0 (assuming that is where the tunnel comes in to you) it will show the packages twice: once as the encrypted package and then a second time as the decrypted one. 16:03:50 note that for plain old transport mode wireshark just sees the encrypted packages 16:04:05 (and of course, wireshark on a third host just sees encrypted for both cases) 16:05:17 elliott, there is a route like " via metric 0 proto static". Thanks to the magic policy stuff this nonsense route somehow works 16:05:47 so completely and utterly crazy 16:05:55 * quintopia --> 16:06:16 Vorpal: lawl 16:06:35 elliott, oh and if you use the network manager vpn thingy on the client, you need to add that route by hand 16:06:41 it didn't get added, it did for the server 16:07:12 proto static? 16:07:15 elliott, oh and talking to the rest of the lan is of course doomed unless you set up a route via the VPN server on each computer. I have to figure out how to do that. 16:07:18 Ilari, yes 16:07:40 Ilari, the daemon adds/removes it as needed. Except that fails with network-manager 16:07:45 HEY GUYS 16:07:55 it's the Elliott nmaps His Router time again! 16:07:57 Ilari, since it neither adds nor removes it 16:08:03 i refuse to let that proprietary piece of crap beat me 16:08:08 elliott, is it one of those that likes to crash from that? 16:08:13 Vorpal: it didn't last time! i think. 16:08:17 hah 16:08:27 Vorpal: I know that my previous router, the Orange Livebox, was hackable by: 16:08:32 - Downloading a backup of the configuration 16:08:38 - XORing all the bytes with a magic number 16:08:41 - Unpacking it (it's a tar!) 16:08:44 - Modifying the init script 16:08:53 - XORing it the other way 16:08:58 - Upload the "backed up configuration" 16:09:05 *put - Re-pack as a tar above the XORing it the other way step 16:09:05 elliott, when I nmap mine it often decides to introduce random malfuction in the wlan. Like refusing DHCP from some wlan clients, or sending bogus responses 16:09:12 Vorpal: I got files on to the system but never got dropbear working. 16:09:21 elliott, and that was nmaping from the ethernet side 16:09:25 heh 16:09:38 anyway this thing has a configuration backup/restore too 16:09:43 so hopefully there's something i can do 16:09:50 Vorpal: Is that standard IPSec or some propiteriary VPN crap? 16:09:58 elliott, last I remember it decided it wanted to send the completely wrong standard gateway info to any wlan nics from intel 16:10:10 Remote Management 16:10:10 16:10:10 Remote management:On Off 16:10:13 elliott, which is just an absurd failure mode 16:10:13 Well hello there, what's this then? 16:10:27 Oh, it looks like it exposes the http configuration interface to the web 16:10:28 L O L 16:10:38 (You can configure what IP can access it though!) 16:11:01 elliott, "to the web"? 16:11:09 Vorpal: as in 16:11:09 do you mean to the wan? 16:11:11 on my ip 16:11:13 no 16:11:14 to the web 16:11:19 as [myip]:8080 16:11:29 password-protected and you can select that only one given IP can view it 16:11:30 elliott, as opposed to "to the gopher"? 16:11:36 Vorpal: ...it's an HTTP web interface.s 16:11:38 stop benig stupid 16:11:40 s/s$// 16:11:47 elliott, yes I think "to the web" is weird :P 16:11:58 elliott, do you mean "to non-LAN"? 16:12:04 I MEAN TO THE WEB 16:12:06 BECAUSE IT EXPOSES IT 16:12:10 NOT ON 192.168.1.1:80 16:12:14 ah 16:12:19 BUT 91.104.104.157:8080 16:12:20 >_< 16:12:45 elliott, which is what I meant with "to the wan" 16:12:49 wide area network 16:12:53 yes, but still 16:12:56 "BRN E1" -- near the end of the backup file 16:13:12 hmm 16:13:24 doesn't look like a shifted tar header or anything 16:13:46 elliott, wan is the common technical term for external interface of a customer-premises router 16:13:53 yeah i'ma nmap this shit. 16:13:54 Vorpal: meh 16:14:23 -sU: UDP Scan 16:14:27 * elliott wonders if nmap uses this by default 16:14:28 probably 16:14:45 no 16:14:52 elliott, why would it, it scans tcp normally 16:14:53 not udp 16:14:58 does -sU scan both? 16:14:59 or just udp 16:15:12 just udp of course, how could it do both? 16:15:22 by scanning tcp and then udp...? 16:15:27 elliott, default is -sS if root, otherwise -sT 16:15:35 elliott, well that would be two separate scans 16:15:52 $ sudo nmap -v -A -sV 192.168.1.1 16:15:53 bring't on 16:16:00 -sV is badly named iirc 16:16:10 since it isn't really a port scan in that sense 16:16:12 is it? oh well. 16:16:16 it isn't used to detect open ports 16:16:17 i just want as much info as i can get 16:16:22 Vorpal: no, i did it to detect 16:16:23 it is used to probe open ports to find what they are 16:16:24 service/version info 16:16:25 right 16:16:26 that's what i want 16:16:28 that's what it said :) 16:16:40 elliott, yes, but it shouldn't be -s then 16:16:48 -!- asiekierka has joined. 16:16:49 since all the other -s are to detect open ports 16:17:01 elliott, and OS scan is not -sO 16:17:14 yeah, just illogical name of option name 16:17:25 Scanning 4 services on SE572 (192.168.1.1) 16:17:26 hum de dum 16:17:32 that can take ages 16:17:36 last time i tried this iirc it gave wild guesses that turned out to be totally wrong 16:17:43 as to what the ports have on them 16:18:00 elliott, also fun thing: it tries to detect IRC by faking a connection and then quitting, with the realname field "nmap wuz here" 16:18:06 i approve 16:18:25 bet some servers try and autoban that :)) 16:18:40 Completed Service scan at 16:17, 119.42s elapsed (4 services on 1 host) 16:18:41 Well you didn't freaking tell me what they are! 16:19:00 do i have to wait until the end? 16:19:00 ah yes indeed 16:19:06 "TCP/IP fingerprint:" fun fun 16:19:25 80/tcp open tcpwrapped 16:19:25 443/tcp open https? 16:19:25 9000/tcp open tcpwrapped 16:19:25 10000/tcp open snet-sensor-mgmt? 16:19:25 what is tcpwrapped, anyway? 16:19:27 elliott, I saw this yesterday when an oper managed to auto-zline himself when trying to scan our servers for open ports. It tried too many times to quickly and server added a zline for 15 minutes. I guess he will be more careful when doing the security testing next time ;) 16:19:45 wait, how did it not identify 80 as http? 16:19:59 Vorpal: heh 16:20:17 ok :9000 is http. inexplicably. 16:20:24 elliott, tcpwrapped... hm.... I very very much doubt that. Unless it runs linux 16:20:45 Vorpal: they both seem to be http 16:20:49 :80 definitely is 16:20:49 and :9000 is too 16:20:57 in fact :9000 seems to be a crazy-slow version of :80 16:20:57 (or i trashed its network stack by probing it...) 16:21:17 now port 10000, that sounds interesting. 16:21:18 elliott, tcpwrapped is related to the hosts.deny/hosts.allow files 16:21:55 stuff like denyhosts and fail2ban and similar auto-block-bruteforce-login-attempts use it for example 16:22:12 well that is an iirc for fail2ban, I only used denyhosts personally 16:22:27 fail2ban always fails to ban 16:22:49 elliott, a strange name for the software I always thought 16:23:13 hm fail2ban seems to do iptables updates too 16:23:41 Or maybe "tcpwrapped" is printed if connection opens but remote end resets it immediately afterwards? 16:23:46 bogons.net's LLU plans have reasonable usage limits :< 16:23:53 well ok you can get it without 16:23:56 but it's £10 more a month! 16:24:06 Ilari, perhaps 16:24:19 and the non-LLU plans cap out at 8 Mb/s 16:25:07 elliott, some googling (not a reliable source but meh, the suggestion seems plausible): http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-security-4/how-does-nmap-determine-a-port-is-tcpwrapped-773983/ 16:25:07 Vorpal: lol apparently you're not allowed to run irc bots on sixxs, only humans can chat 16:25:19 impressively... retarded 16:25:19 (although even that's grudgingly...) 16:26:10 The route gives other endpoints IP inside tunnel even if its different from the one tunnel goes to? 16:26:23 cool, guy got banned from sixxs for saying on their forums that opennic now does ipv6 16:26:56 Vorpal: have you used hurricane electric's tunnel broker? 16:27:53 Vorpal: omg, i've lagged my connection to hell by nmapping 16:27:53 stupid router 16:28:08 elliott, heh 16:28:34 Vorpal: question. why don't freenode offer cloaks with a bot? 16:28:35 elliott, no CTCP PING reply? 16:28:36 answer: no reason! 16:28:45 elliott, err they do? 16:31:22 Vorpal: i just got your ping now 16:31:22 and three messages 16:31:22 TOTALLY RESTARTING ROUTER OK 16:32:51 LOAD THE REBOOT PAGE FASTER 16:33:40 + Ping reply from elliott: 191.75 second(s) 16:33:41 + Ping reply from elliott: 180.60 second(s) 16:33:55 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Connection reset by peer review). 16:35:47 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:39:41 Vorpal: According to docs I have found, Linux IPSEC system itself decides when to encapsulate and does not require normal IP routes (except normal connectivity to remote end of tunnel)... 16:40:01 Ilari, yes but you needed those absurd routes to make the ip go anywhere 16:40:19 Ilari, otherwise it wouldn't even get as far as the ipsec subsystem 16:40:49 Dunno about tunnel mode... Transport mode definitely doesn't have any weird routes. 16:40:57 Ilari, indeed, transport mode is sane 16:41:12 Ilari, but not very useful for my use case 16:41:36 -!- Guest32752 has changed nick to Gregor. 16:41:56 Stupid disco-nection. 16:42:32 Vorpal: BTW: There's joke that IPSec has been sabotaged by NSA. 16:43:46 What about the 16:43:51 DISCO SAUNA 16:43:52 http://209.222.11.132/media/flash/d/discosquirrels.swf 16:44:54 Ilari, well If I would need to keep something really secret I wouldn't use a system based on x.509 at all. I would go for openssh 16:47:45 I don't mean sabotage that made it insecure, but sabotage that made it difficult to use... 16:48:03 -!- elliott has joined. 16:48:07 lol 16:48:09 i rebooted it 16:48:12 and it didn't start the lan 16:48:13 just the wlan 16:48:20 I THE WHAT 16:48:52 Vorpal: ...apparently my router's certificate is for "bear" now 16:48:53 GO FIGURE 16:48:55 it never was before 16:50:00 "If you're thinking about getting a generic cloak, though, please consider instead making a donation to Peer-Directed Projects Center. PDPC is the not-for-profit entity which runs the network. If you donate, you'll get a nice cloak by way of acknowledgement and have the satisfaction of knowing that you've helped the network and PDPC continue to grow." 16:50:31 Vorpal: they so do not offer cloaks via bot. 16:52:02 elliott, oh *via* bot 16:52:07 elliott, I thought you meant *to* bot 16:52:11 no, via bot. right. 16:52:40 elliott, btw: 16:52:45 + Ping reply from elliott: 191.75 second(s) 16:52:45 + Ping reply from elliott: 180.60 second(s) 16:52:49 Vorpal: yuup. 16:52:57 ah you saw that then 16:53:37 fizzie, important issue with mrd6: while the daemon and the controlling tool for it are documented, the actual daemon configuration file format is not 16:53:38 -NickServ- Insufficient parameters for LANGUAGE. 16:53:38 -NickServ- Valid languages are: en ru 16:54:10 does freenode do ssl yet? 16:54:33 elliott, since over a year by now iirc 16:54:38 elliott, port 7000 16:54:46 ok. too bad i don't see a single reason to use ssl! 16:54:56 elliott, why did you ask then 16:54:58 it would totally encrypt all my publicly-logged conversations here 16:55:02 Vorpal: i almost thought i did 16:55:05 but then changed my mind 16:55:08 also, curiosity 16:55:11 brb trying identification 16:55:13 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Connection reset by peer review). 16:55:22 -!- elliott has joined. 16:55:27 woo it works. 16:56:02 Just to annoy FRA&co? :-) 16:56:21 Ilari: FRA&co? 16:56:49 i just ask a staffer for a cloak, right? 16:56:50 Elliot: Yes 16:56:58 Vorpal: what is it with these crazy fuckers who don't use tab complete? 16:57:01 and are illiterate? 16:57:09 i think i regret using this nick :D 16:59:16 elliott, or they have irc clients that use caps maybe? 16:59:23 Vorpal: one t 16:59:28 elliott, ? 16:59:29 unless their irc client also chops off the last letter. 16:59:32 Vorpal: COMPARE: 16:59:34 Elliott 16:59:34 oh that 16:59:34 Elliot 16:59:37 right 17:00:36 eeLLLLIIOOTTTT, yeah it looks strange with just one t 17:01:05 elliott, also I thought you already had a cloak? 17:01:06 "Hi Elliot!" "It's two Ts dammit!" "Oh, sorry! Hi Eliott!" 17:01:11 Vorpal: nope. never had. 17:01:15 TOTALLY NEW EXPERIENCE FOR ME YOU UNDERSTAND 17:01:24 elliott, did you read the guidelines? 17:01:35 elliott, you need to have elliott_ linked to your main nick in nickserv 17:01:40 you do? 17:01:47 elliott, says their faq yes 17:01:47 like no choice about it? iirc that was just a recommendation. 17:02:03 elliott, I think it was more than a recommendation for getting cloaks 17:02:12 or used to be at least 17:02:12 Vorpal: well. i'll do it afterwards 17:02:19 don't want to switch nick when a staffer's about and i've already asked 17:02:24 let's hope they don't notice :p 17:04:04 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host). 17:04:04 -!- elliott has joined. 17:04:19 HAHA THEY DIDN'T NOTICE 17:04:23 I AM BREAKING THE RULES 17:04:56 Vorpal: i might add ghosting to my autoconnect :p 17:05:03 ghost elliott, nick elliott, identify 17:05:07 hm 17:05:11 voila, no need for elliott_! 17:05:15 Vorpal: although i have nick protection on 17:05:18 so it's not like they'd last long anyway 17:05:43 mquin: I am 12. Will I get klined? 17:05:59 Troll or bizarre? We report, you decide! 17:06:22 Vorpal: QUICK should I work on leaden or botte 17:07:04 elliott, uh, what was the difference? 17:07:08 xD 17:07:10 leaden edits 17:07:11 botte bots 17:07:27 elliott, leaden. it will cause less disarray in this irc channel 17:07:56 elliott: Y'know what'd be nice? Enough hard drive space to make *remuxing* a DVD a practical archival method. 17:08:08 pikhq, remuxing? 17:08:09 Vorpal: but, but, FUN disarray! 17:08:26 pikhq: dvd pfff dvd is for LOSERS 17:08:32 elliott, well, do you want botte to be the first project coded inside leaden or not? 17:08:39 Vorpal: Taking the bitstream out of a DVD ISO and sticking it into, say, mkv. 17:08:44 elliott, if not, then you can do botte first 17:09:01 pikhq, so, how much space does that need? 17:09:03 Vorpal: OH TOUCHÉ 17:09:07 pikhq, surely just a few GB 17:09:15 Vorpal: 4 to 8 gigs per disc. 17:09:24 Vorpal: do you think i'm crazy enough to trust my editor with my code?! 17:09:35 lolcat93: not unless we have cause to mquin: Aren't I breaking freenode policy? 17:09:37 Vorpal: Which actually isn't *terrible*, but it's still a bit much for 720x480 video. 17:09:51 REMUX BLURAY FUUUUUUUUUCK YEAH 17:10:06 Vorpal: Of course, you might get it smaller if there's a lot of extra content you don't care about. 17:10:10 pikhq, only temporary I presume? 17:10:30 Vorpal: ... That's the permanent storage space of a remuxed DVD. 17:10:35 elliott, um, otherwise what would the point be. Of course, I would only trust it once it seemes somewhat stable 17:10:36 Just like a normal DVD. 17:10:40 lolcat93: you don't appear to be mquin: I allready stated I am 12! 12 years old! But I have to go visit my ex 17:10:47 Vorpal: do you realise how crazy my ideas are? i'm not *stupid* :-D 17:11:08 pikhq, is it more than the original dvd!? 17:11:11 lolcat93: But you aren't registered You need to be registered to break the policy, ergo, you're not breaking it ;; <-- this guy must be a nomic player 17:11:16 No, it's less. 17:11:28 But DVDs take a lot of space. 17:12:11 pikhq, hm I think that you discovered the DRM of the future. Make the things so high-def that pirating them becomes impractical 17:12:13 ;P 17:12:24 of course it fails because you could just make it somewhat less high-def 17:12:40 Vorpal: *wow,* it's actually policy that you have to be 13 or over to register with nickserv 17:12:45 but it's alright to use the network at any age 17:12:48 what the fuck? 17:12:51 elliott, huh 17:12:54 since when is an email address personal information? 17:13:00 also this stops people going into channels that require registration 17:14:15 Yeah, stupid "think of the children!" laws... 17:14:24 Vorpal: :D "Shame they don’t allow auto-identification using client-side SSL certificates, like OFTC does." 17:14:28 OFTC += awesome 17:14:59 Because that would be too complicated? 17:15:12 Too AWESOME 17:15:13 GAH THIS DVD IS SO RETARDEDLY ENCODED 17:15:19 Freenode is basically OFTC's retarded cousin 17:15:22 elliott, oftc fails in some other aspects 17:15:24 Who lives in the basement 17:15:37 elliott, such as #esoteric not being there 17:15:48 Vorpal: that's just because of hysterical raisins though :) 17:15:50 pikhq, how is it encoded then 17:15:58 (OFTC only being a year old at the time, for instance) 17:16:04 Vorpal: besides 17:16:12 Vorpal: the true, original esoteric channel is #esoterica on EFNet 17:16:22 lament was the one who told andreou to move it to #esoteric on freenode 17:16:23 elliott, that sounds like the other type of esotericness 17:16:25 so we're all using an imitation! 17:16:26 Vorpal: nope 17:16:29 #esoteric was taken or something iirc :) 17:16:35 err 17:16:38 why are we in it then 17:16:39 see the 2002 Q4 mailing list archives 17:16:41 Vorpal: I said efnet. 17:16:43 TRY TO READ 17:16:44 ah 17:16:45 before speaking 17:16:53 Vorpal: It's a TV series collection. It has all the episodes in a single title, with 31 chapters. 17:16:59 elliott, is there anything left in the old channel 17:17:05 elliott, also: what about logs for it back then 17:17:11 Vorpal: probably not. also, none. 17:17:13 it existed for like 17:17:14 a day 17:17:18 ah 17:17:19 and probably lament came in... once 17:17:23 otherwise just andreou 17:18:03 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 17:18:10 Vorpal: Wanna try and FIGURE OUT HOW MY ROUTER ENCODES ITS KEY TO FREEDOM?!?!8375389E5W8347F 17:18:15 pikhq: Or YOU?! 17:18:26 elliott, is "8375389E5W8347F" the key? 17:18:29 WHO KNOWS 17:18:33 elliott, also key to freedom in what sense? 17:18:43 Vorpal: the configuration backup file 17:18:49 i.e. almost certainly a tar with terrible XOR-encryption 17:18:49 elliott, what about it 17:18:51 like the livebox 17:18:52 i.e. 17:18:53 elliott, oh 17:18:54 it has initscripts 17:18:54 i.e. 17:18:58 i can use it to get ssh 17:19:12 by unpacking, adding stuff, repacking, and using it as the configuration to restore 17:19:26 elliott, from my router backing up the config gives you an ini file. Trying to load it back will almost certainly fuck up the router and require a hard reset and then doing all the settings manually 17:19:30 so a very very bad backup 17:20:05 elliott, also hm, it has an sshd? 17:20:38 Vorpal: no 17:20:43 Vorpal: that's why i'll put one in the initscript 17:20:57 Vorpal: i.e. in the initscript, i'll have it download dropbear and start it 17:21:00 Vorpal: failing that -- 17:21:03 Vorpal: i'll put dropbear in /etc 17:21:06 as part of the tar 17:21:08 elliott, uh. chances of that working? 17:21:13 -!- Sgeo has joined. 17:21:14 high 17:21:17 it worked for the livebox folks 17:21:19 low 17:21:26 elliott, someone compiled dropbear for that arch? 17:21:35 Vorpal: uhh, it'll just be mips or something. 17:21:38 probably linux. 17:21:40 elliott, linux? 17:21:42 well 17:21:45 likely 17:21:46 well 17:21:48 elliott, mine is probably not linux 17:21:53 nmap doesn't identify the OS 17:21:56 but routers do freaky shit anyway 17:22:13 -!- zzo38 has joined. 17:22:29 elliott, I suspect mine is vxworks, not sure though 17:22:45 >>> rs = [''.join(chr(ord(c)^r) for c in list(x)) for r in range(0,256)] 17:22:47 (x is the backup) 17:22:48 ho hum. 17:22:54 this may take a little while 17:22:59 it's 110 KiB :) 17:23:04 elliott, what are you doing 17:23:06 or KB, dunno what Gnome reports it as 17:23:09 Vorpal: trying all possible XORs 17:23:19 elliott, and looking for what? 17:23:21 then e.g. i'll look at all the ones that contain the string "sh" 17:23:23 or similar 17:23:26 or /sh 17:23:29 or /bin/sh 17:23:30 or #! 17:23:31 elliott, it could be compressed 17:23:31 or whatever 17:23:37 Vorpal: well. unlikely. 17:23:41 elliott, gzip? 17:23:42 the livebox was just a plain tar 17:23:46 Vorpal: takes up space on the router 17:23:48 and what's the point? 17:23:55 it's not like it's being transferred over a slow network 17:24:00 elliott, the xor routine takes up space too 17:24:03 and what is the point 17:24:12 Vorpal: to stop people doing what i'm doing. 17:24:20 also, xoring every byte in a string is like 17:24:23 elliott, also it could use a multi-byte key 17:24:24 10 bytes of machine code :P 17:24:28 Vorpal: unlikely. 17:24:35 anyway, shut up, this is just my first avenue of investigation 17:24:42 elliott, google not helpful on it? 17:24:58 >>> rs_ = filter(lambda y: 'sh' in y, rs) 17:24:58 >>> len(rs_) 17:24:58 203 17:24:58 lawl 17:25:00 Vorpal: nope, tried that 17:25:18 >>> rs_ = filter(lambda y: '/sh' in y, rs) 17:25:19 >>> len(rs_) 17:25:19 1 17:25:39 >>> rs_[0][0:25] 17:25:40 '\xaa)\x1f*K\x19\x85u49\xee\x81\xbb\xef\\cV\x7f \xff0\x99\x82\\~' 17:25:41 that, uh 17:25:45 elliott, I know mine is near impossible to replace firmware on. Google has a lot on it. But it boils down to "while the firmware file is obfuscated with xor and such, there is one thing we can't get past, an 1024-bit RSA signature" 17:25:45 doesn't look very useful 17:25:46 wait 17:25:48 \xaa) 17:25:50 that ) rings a bell 17:25:51 maybe? 17:25:55 Vorpal: :D 17:25:57 elliott, mine is hackable with jtag though 17:26:03 elliott, but that requires soldering 17:26:07 Vorpal: lolinksys 17:26:12 elliott, not linksys 17:26:12 (or d-link) 17:26:15 elliott, speedtouch 17:26:18 or netgear 17:26:20 Vorpal: no i meant 17:26:23 solution is linksys :P 17:26:27 elliott, ah 17:26:31 elliott, well it is an ADSL modem 17:26:35 elliott, not just a router 17:26:40 Vorpal: linksys sell one of those too :P 17:26:47 also you could disable all the settings and plug it into a good router 17:26:55 elliott, I'm not sure how well my ISP would like not using one of theirs 17:26:57 oh well 17:27:05 your isp probably has bigger issues :P 17:27:27 elliott, yes but mine actually mostly do sane things, and it is not locked to that ISP. I could change to use a different ISP with it 17:28:08 headline i want to see: 17:28:21 "XS4ALL teams up with Pirate Party International to launch ISPs in various countries" 17:28:23 elliott, I have an ISP who *are actually working on implementing IPv6 for last-mile* and have *fully ipv6 supporting backbone since mid-2006* 17:28:37 elliott, not as good as bogons or xs4all, but better than average 17:28:48 Vorpal: right now i'm with Orange 17:28:50 who are one of the big ones here 17:28:53 and they're basically terrible. 17:28:54 mhm 17:28:55 in every way. 17:29:10 at least I get 800 KiB/s predictably 17:29:15 Ha ha ha ha ha 17:29:17 elliott, mine is one of the old ones. As in, the original one after it went "not just academical". 17:29:27 Vorpal: ah 17:29:38 well, original but it changed name 17:29:44 still it uses the old name in some places 17:29:53 even though it changed name in like 1995 17:29:54 :D 17:29:59 800 KiB/s? Yeah, once all our cities were wiped out by nuclear bombs and we had to cope with 800 KiB/s for an hour. 17:30:10 elliott, mail server was on old domain until last year! 17:30:18 ISP mail! Yay! Who would ever use it? 17:30:31 elliott, err, that was common back then 17:30:45 yeah yeah :P 17:30:50 elliott, and well, my dad had the same email since 1994 :P 17:30:57 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:31:32 elliott, anyway there wasn't much choice to ISP email 17:31:41 until, like, the past 5-7 years 17:32:39 it sads me that gmail isn't quite all it could be 17:32:44 i just want to run my own qmail 17:33:06 Vorpal: anyway 17:33:10 \xaa)\x1f* 17:33:12 do you recognise this header? 17:33:21 wait 17:33:23 i have file(1) 17:33:23 duh! 17:33:25 elliott, err, not really 17:33:37 elliott, yeah I was wondering why you didn't just use that 17:33:46 lawl 17:33:52 elliott, also, did the xor take that long? 17:34:06 well about 10 seconds. to do all 256 possible xors of a 110 KiB file. 17:34:08 bear in mind this is python. 17:34:10 it is slow. 17:34:10 elliott, xor is like, one of the fastest operations possible on a modern CPU 17:34:14 elliott, ah, python 17:34:21 Vorpal: it also converted from a one-byte string to a character 17:34:24 and back 17:34:30 elliott, why on earth 17:34:37 string[x] is-a string 17:34:39 elliott, why didn't you just use haskell? 17:34:40 of length 1 17:34:45 Vorpal: don't recall :D 17:35:00 elliott@dinky:~/Downloads$ file ~/sdff 17:35:00 /home/elliott/sdff: data 17:35:00 elliott@dinky:~/Downloads$ file SE572_backup.bin 17:35:00 SE572_backup.bin: data 17:35:01 well, fuck. 17:35:13 elliott, generate all the variants as files 17:35:13 the firmware upgrade may be a better route, but i see no way to test it 17:35:17 other than dissecting a previous upgrade 17:35:22 Vorpal: yeah, i will 17:35:51 elliott, what is the brand/model? 17:36:02 siemens gigaset se572 17:36:06 it appears to be Orange-specific. 17:36:13 maybe another model rebranded for orange 17:36:46 elliott, oh and I know someone who uses a cisco router at home. Because he had a spare one. It has the same CPU model as my desktop. (Sempron 3300+, 64-bit). And a CD-reader. 17:36:52 I wish I had such a router 17:36:58 would be power hungry I bet though 17:36:58 /home/elliott/xyz219: Sendmail frozen configuration - version \332\254\274\016\362v\236\007O*\024]\241\351\006 17:37:10 elliott, misdetection I suspect 17:37:17 indeed 17:37:21 http://pastie.org/pastes/1227893/text?key=smb0pibj6th7rrkanurvg 17:37:27 i like how it detects things as com 17:37:30 like, everything is a valid com :P 17:37:32 elliott, grep -v data is bad 17:37:38 elliott, data could exist inside other ones 17:37:38 Vorpal: oh, indeed 17:37:50 /home/elliott/xyz254: DBase 3 data file 17:37:51 i doubt 17:38:01 /home/elliott/xyz126: DBase 3 data file with memo(s) (1554788450 records) 17:38:02 yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaano 17:38:08 lol at 1554788450 records though 17:38:11 and that's it 17:38:14 elliott, a lot of weird stuff is detected as "DBase 3 data file" in my experience 17:38:35 elliott, what is "SysEx File"? 17:38:46 Vorpal: MIDI stuff, I think 17:39:04 oh, yeah 17:39:24 elliott, hm "MIPSEL-BE Ucode"? 17:39:42 don't look at me 17:39:42 elliott, you could try strings on all those files 17:39:50 elliott, and look for plausible things 17:40:03 elliott, it could be a custom format 17:40:14 elliott, look for known strings, like the configured SSID or whatever 17:40:28 i think i might have given up :D 17:40:32 good idea for that ssid though 17:40:42 nope 17:40:49 elliott, try finding SSID in the original file too 17:40:54 it could be un-encrypted 17:41:04 nope 17:41:05 no occurrences 17:41:07 i give up :p 17:41:09 hm 17:41:27 Vorpal: i'll give you access if you want to try and mess it up for me >:p 17:41:38 elliott, to the config or the router? 17:41:55 router, that'd let you download the config too... although actually no, i don't trust you 17:42:05 elliott, I might take a quick look at the config, I doubt I'm in position to hijack your wlan from here 17:42:55 Vorpal: well i am not entirely sure it does not store my password unencrypted. 17:43:00 unless you have a very very very very very very very good directed antenna aimed at Sweden (and assuming that the signals bounce against the ionosphere, which I doubt) 17:43:04 i could change it and diff the two files 17:43:05 elliott, grep for it ;P 17:43:06 that might be interesting 17:43:15 elliott, that would certainly be interesting 17:43:25 elliott, also: back it up again without changing 17:43:28 elliott, there might be timestamps 17:43:36 so you need to look for that as well 17:44:18 Binary files SE572_backup.bin and new differ 17:44:19 asdgdfg 17:44:25 elliott, how much? 17:44:25 is there a bdiff designed for human use? 17:44:28 wait i can diff the hexdump 17:44:42 elliott, diff <(od < foo) <(od < bar) 17:44:45 elliott, :P 17:45:03 Vorpal: there are a ... lot of changes. 17:45:10 elliott, only after a certain point? 17:45:14 Vorpal: sure, it has rebooted since then, and the password has changed, but, a lot of changes. 17:45:18 elliott@dinky:~/Router$ diff <(hexdump -C SE572_backup.bin) <(hexdump -C new) | wc -l 17:45:18 14060 17:45:21 a lot of changes. 17:45:33 hm 17:45:42 oh, and the passwords were the same length 17:45:43 made sure of that 17:45:51 elliott, are they all after some specific point? 17:46:07 elliott, and after that point, nearly everything has changed? 17:46:08 000000b0 onwards 17:46:13 it seems 17:46:13 but yes, ah 17:46:14 you are right 17:46:18 ugh! 17:46:21 elliott, block chiper 17:46:23 that means it's using actual encryption 17:46:27 with IV chaining probably 17:46:38 Vorpal: this is where i give up, yes? 17:47:07 elliott, this is where you fetch the screwdriver and the soldering iron and the oscope! 17:47:20 Vorpal: This is where I switch ISPs! 17:47:24 And buy a new router! 17:47:30 elliott, remember to use digital probes, not analogue ones 17:47:44 `addquote elliott, remember to use digital probes, not analogue ones 17:47:49 context is futile. uh, irrelevant. 17:47:52 elliott, :P 17:48:06 Vorpal: i'm going to fetch the hammer 17:48:09 it's quite small, made of plastic 17:48:10 i can take it 17:48:22 elliott, look for jtag connectors on it 17:48:28 i...i doubt. 17:48:36 elliott, a lot of things have jtag in fact 17:48:48 elliott, probably just holes for the connectors though 17:48:57 no need to put an actual contact there 17:49:02 saves money 17:49:07 wat. 17:49:17 elliott, jtag. You know what it is right? 17:49:28 elliott, probably just holes for the connectors though 17:49:29 no need to put an actual contact there 17:49:29 saves money 17:49:30 that was the wat bit 17:49:52 elliott, well, a lot of consumer crap crap stuff has jtag. Both for debugging faulty units and for debugging during development of the model. 17:50:16 elliott, but they don't put the actual physical connectors in retail units 17:50:30 elliott, there is just the holes in the PCB left where it would have gone 17:50:35 heh 17:50:50 Vorpal: maybe i'll just get a device capable of dispensing specific electrical shocks 17:50:50 elliott, ST585 (which I have) is such a case 17:50:53 and operate directly on the pcb 17:51:02 elliott, hah 17:51:20 "Okay... so if I cause this bit to flip...right...now! it'll corrupt the disk in the right way that if I..." 17:51:34 elliott, I doubt it has a "disk" 17:51:43 Vorpal: I CAN MODIFY ROM DAMMIT 17:51:49 elliott, raw access to a flash controller is more likely 17:51:50 it'll have some sort of flash storage 17:51:51 yeah 17:52:16 elliott, it will be low level access to it. Not any sort of SATA or IDE interface to it 17:52:31 wonder if anyone's written an fltk binding for scheme 17:53:11 elliott, anyway, if there aren't anything jtagish on there, you will have to resort to using a scope 17:53:19 You *might* be an obsessive freak about video quality when you go and grab DVD ISOs for the sole purpose of getting better encodes. 17:53:20 s/isn't/ 17:53:25 argh sed fail 17:53:31 pikhq: BLU-RAAAAAAAY 17:53:39 elliott: It's not ON Blu-ray! 17:53:53 elliott, I wonder when we will get UV-ray 17:53:53 i would like to report myself for multiple kline evasions :) 17:54:06 Nor has it ever been aired in higher than 480p! 17:54:22 pikhq: UNSATISFACTORY 17:54:25 WATCH A DIFFERENT FILM INSTEAD 17:54:34 wait, why is bluetooth called "bluetooth" 17:54:52 after the guy. 17:55:02 elliott: TV series. 17:55:03 The word Bluetooth is an anglicised version of Danish/Swedish Blåtand, the epithet of the tenth-century king Harald I of Denmark and parts of Norway who united dissonant Danish tribes into a single kingdom. The implication is that Bluetooth does the same with communications protocols, uniting them into one universal standard.[2][3][4] 17:55:12 oh harald blåtand, right 17:55:14 pikhq: Which series? Also: WATCH A DIFFERENT SERIES 17:55:16 ONE WITH HIGHER QUALITY 17:55:19 elliott: Invader Zim. 17:55:24 HIGHER 17:55:25 QUALITY 17:55:25 REQUIRED 17:55:35 elliott: Nobody's gone out and refilmed the animation cells, sadly. 17:55:38 I don't watch anything that hasn't been aired or released in 1080p. 17:55:53 Preferably 4096p. 17:56:03 elliott: So, Doctor Who came into existence this year? 17:56:05 Sorry 17:56:07 2160p 17:56:12 pikhq: Yes. 17:56:24 pikhq: Quite interesting in medias res beginning. 17:56:29 elliott, what?! how can you accept 2160p!? 17:56:29 Hahahah. 17:56:36 pikhq: I mean, this Doctor -- who is he? Where is he from? What is he doing? 17:56:41 Who's these other people? 17:56:42 I mean, what? 17:56:45 elliott, that's absurdly bad quality! 17:56:46 I think it might be a psychological thriller. 17:56:50 elliott, 4000p at least 17:56:53 elliott: And how's he the eleventh? 17:56:57 is my minimum! 17:57:02 pikhq: I think we are up for a FUCKTON of flashbacks. 17:57:16 Vorpal: I only watch continuous video frames. 17:57:33 Vorpal: That is, the frame is a function from [0,1] to [0,1]^3 (RGB). 17:57:35 elliott: They might air it in 576i for a retro feel, though. 17:57:39 elliott: And wouldn't that be awful? 17:57:45 pikhq: Not if it's INTENTIONAL 17:57:50 That's like RETRO 17:57:53 :D 17:57:58 Vorpal: Although RGB is a bit insufficient. 17:58:00 Hmm. 17:58:01 elliott, oh? So you are keeping your eyes closed all the time then? (quantum... discrete!) 17:58:04 Vorpal: BUT I'LL JUST HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT 17:58:08 elliott, oh? So you are keeping your eyes closed all the time then? (quantum... discrete!) 17:58:09 wut :p 17:58:13 elliott, oh, not in time 17:58:19 *[0,1]^2 17:58:20 as the input 17:58:21 obviously 17:58:23 elliott, right. 17:58:28 3d video! :P 17:58:36 elliott, I only watch continuous *in time* 17:58:45 Well duh, me too. 17:59:19 Vorpal: In conclusion, I watch ([0,1]^3)^(R * [0,1]^2). 17:59:40 Or, equivalently, 17:59:47 elliott, but since the real world isn't continuous in time... Lets just say it explains why I don't have a lot of scrollback, it would need a huge braille terminal! 17:59:51 (([0,1]^3)^([0,1]^2))^R 18:00:39 elliott, I only watch those that have only imaginary colours 18:00:47 Vorpal: Ah yes, like the Discworld movies. 18:00:54 My display reproduces octarine perfectly. 18:00:56 elliott, touche 18:01:28 elliott, and lets not just get started on my audio requirements! 18:01:58 err, grammar fail 18:02:16 Vorpal: I hope you don't use a silly notion of bits and kHz. 18:02:24 You seem like the kind of man who would use [0,1]^R. 18:02:39 A continuous signal of infinite bits! 18:04:48 elliott, indeed. 18:05:33 elliott, perfect binaural of course 18:06:06 no i have mono ears 18:08:03 * Sgeo leaves the hot water in the sink running for 7min 18:08:11 ...why? 18:08:22 To be sure that it will stay hot 18:08:31 The house is breaking down 18:08:45 If it stays hot, maybe I can take a shower in my house! 18:08:52 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:08:59 (not from the sink water) 18:10:15 Vorpal: "It's useful, but not required, to have an alternate nick grouped to your account. For example, if your primary nick is foo: 18:10:16 -!- elliott has changed nick to foo_. 18:10:20 -!- foo_ has changed nick to elliott. 18:10:22 whoops :D 18:10:27 you can imagine the next line 18:10:27 " 18:11:29 They actually said "whoops :D"? 18:14:35 ... 18:17:25 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 18:20:04 my god 18:20:08 i just recompiled the freedos kernel 18:20:18 only so i can get Windows for Workgroups 3.11 run from an USB thumbdrive 18:20:26 and 386 Win3x support requires a special kernel compile 18:20:28 let's see if it works... 18:20:55 That's a bit bizarre. :) 18:23:40 pikhq: "We will probably, but not definitely, end up working in Java." -- Eliezer Yudkowsky, ages ago, on the Seed AI project, making present Eliezer Yudkowsky very embarrassed indeed 18:24:06 How incredibly embarassing. 18:24:25 *embarrassing :| 18:24:30 I think that's the first time I've ever seen you typo. 18:24:34 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:25:02 pikhq: I'm just lovin' the thought that a standard-ish computer could be expected to run *Java* code fast enough to... to anything. 18:25:21 elliott: I typo somewhat often, IMO. 18:25:33 I nver tpyo. 18:26:06 I'm going to guess you get the impression that I never typo simply because I actually try to spell things right (like most programmers). :P 18:26:26 pikhq: I just never see you use anything other than perfect English. Thinkos, yes, but not typos. 18:26:41 I try and spell correctly but grammar I am much less concerned about :p 18:26:49 well 18:26:51 orthography, really 18:26:52 Aaah. 18:27:02 grammar i get right, i just tend to omit... punctuation 18:27:05 and capitalisation 18:27:07 I do mistype things fairly often. 18:27:20 And spelling, eh, I sometimes forget. Maybe once or twice a day. 18:29:30 It's very very annoying to try and get things set up to be easily encodable when you're having to dump the VOB stream for episodes FROM THE FREAKING CHAPTERS of a single title. 18:29:56 Aaah well. 18:30:01 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:30:04 pikhq: dd bs=[whatever] if=/dev/cdrom of=movie.iso 18:30:08 of=series.iso, whatever 18:30:09 hi ais523 18:30:21 elliott: See, I've got the ISOs already. 18:30:27 pikhq: mplayer foo.iso 18:30:30 iirc this works. 18:30:31 elliott: I want them in h264'd mkvs. 18:30:38 hi elliott 18:30:47 mplayer dvd://chapter/path-to-iso.iso 18:31:08 right. 18:31:13 pikhq: just keep it like that then :D 18:31:26 It works just fine, but it's kinda annoying. Especially when you're going to need to do some processing to make the video not suck. 18:32:02 (invert the 2:3 pulldown, deinterlace the random chunks of not 2:3 pulldown... Ugh.) 18:32:21 Oh, and probably completely omit the Spanish audio track. 18:32:32 pikhq: why not just pirate it from the start? 18:32:36 ais523: have you had any esolang ideas recently? 18:32:38 elliott: I pirated the ISOs. 18:32:45 pikhq: heh 18:32:56 elliott: probably 18:32:59 Because all the other encodes had INSUFFICIENT AUDIO QUALITY 18:33:02 Erm. 18:33:04 ais523: *probably*? 18:33:04 Video. 18:33:10 you lose track after a while 18:33:33 I've been spending more time recently trying (and failing) to exploit a buffer overflow in NetHack 18:33:35 Most encodes are going to have sane audio quality; you're generally going to just copy the AC3 stream. 18:33:50 ais523: Vorpal saw you on NAO, I think 18:33:51 because a stupid full stop keeps getting in the way 18:33:53 killing yourself repeatedly? 18:33:58 no wait 18:33:59 elliott: no, wouldn't have been me 18:34:00 that was a RNG hack 18:34:09 ais523: he said you wrote the bot though; probably he just meant TAEB 18:34:10 (192kbps for stereo AC3? What's the *point* in transcoding it?) 18:34:22 well, I haven't run TAEB523 recently either 18:34:33 ais523: Vorpal probably grossly overestimates how much of TAEB you wrote 18:34:42 ais523: it was killing itself repeatedly on dlvl 1 by kicking a wand of wishing, apparently 18:34:56 oh, wowdeath? 18:34:57 elliott, I know he wrote one of those AIs only 18:35:09 that was a) only three kills, and b) years ago 18:35:15 ais523: no, it was days ago 18:35:18 ask Vorpal 18:35:23 killing yourself repeatedly? <-- deathrobin? 18:35:25 what? 18:35:30 Vorpal: has someone been doing wowdeath again? 18:35:31 Vorpal: you said a few days ago 18:35:35 you saw something on NAO 18:35:36 elliott: Oh, I've also got this thing about retaining things like audio commentary; most people don't. 18:35:37 ais523, not that I know of 18:35:39 kicking a wand of wishing repeatedly 18:35:42 ... yes you did, you said it 18:35:45 ais523, I haven't connected to nao for weeks 18:35:46 pikhq: heh 18:35:54 elliott: I think it's just a timescale confusion, somehow 18:35:55 months probably 18:35:59 oh 18:35:59 it was pikhq 18:36:00 elliott, you are mixing me up with someone else 18:36:01 22:36:03 Someone reverse engineered Nethack's PRNG... And then logged onto a public server, killed himself on the first level by kicking a wand of wishing, three times a day. 18:36:06 (I was surprised, because the bug wowdeath exploited was fixed) 18:36:09 22:36:25 pikhq: Uhhhhh 18:36:09 22:36:33 http://alt.org/nethack/player-all.php?player=WowDeath Yes. 18:36:09 22:36:46 Gregor: He could have done a bunch of ascensions, but that's funnier. 18:36:09 22:38:47 Oh, whaddya know. ais523 developed the bot that does that. 18:36:09 22:38:54 Awesome. 18:36:15 (and later, the bug Adeon exploited was fixed too) 18:36:20 so, yes, years ago 18:36:25 i don't know where he got your name from though 18:36:55 "On the WowDeath account, I killed myself by kicking wands of wishing on the first level — three times in one day." --sartak, TAEB blog 18:36:56 ais523: ^ 18:37:07 pikhq: did you think ais523 wrote all the TAEB code or something? :p 18:37:08 It was linked to from the TAEB blog, which listed ais523 as one of the developers. 18:37:11 elliott: I wrote one of the AIs for TAEB; Sartak, who owned WoWdeath, was the original author for TAEB 18:37:16 ais523: indeed 18:37:20 pikhq: right 18:37:26 ais523 had no part in it actually :P 18:37:30 elliott: No, I just misphrased it. I should have said something like "ais523 was *a* developer for the bot that does that." 18:37:36 pikhq: TAEB didn't do it, though. 18:37:40 pikhq: I /am/ one of the developers for TAEB, but TAEB wasn't involved in the RNG exploit 18:37:44 It was another bot by someone else who happens to develop TAEB. 18:37:48 Oh, I misinterpreted. 18:37:48 (Well, was the original developer of. But.) 18:37:54 I played deathrobin once for the fun of it. I got a new one iirc. IIRC I was first with something along the lines of "dying from jumping out of beartrap while punished and hallucinating" 18:37:58 AND misphrased. 18:37:58 Sartak's been missing for a while 18:38:03 most saner ones were already done 18:38:08 ais523: literally missing? 18:38:13 or just not arond much? 18:38:14 *around 18:38:19 elliott: hasn't turned up in #nethack or #interhack 18:38:22 bbl food 18:38:28 ais523: define "while 18:38:30 *"while" 18:38:39 I'm not sure offhand; probably around a year 18:38:51 ais523: a *year*? 18:38:57 ais523: that's very worrying 18:39:07 elliott: we think he just moved on to other projects 18:39:13 hmm, he works for best practical 18:39:22 so you'd probably hear if he died or something 18:39:31 and his twitter account's still being used, that's a quick way to check 18:39:39 ais523: ah, he's committed to github recently 18:39:42 to the bestpractical account 18:40:04 eight hours ago 18:40:14 yep, I doubt he's vanished off the face of the Earth 18:40:18 just from the NetHack community 18:40:27 well... it happens 18:40:30 Alright, got the vob streams dumped. 18:40:39 (why :( ) 18:41:34 Now to experiment with how best to get the video to not suck 18:41:45 elliott: it's kind-of annoying, because he owns the machine on which my TAEB repo is hosted 18:41:56 and although the machine still works, my SSH key doesn't, and the account doesn't have a password 18:41:59 ais523: btw, i'm about to give you a flashback 18:42:02 ais523: rutian 18:42:14 that's a while ago 18:42:29 did your vision go greyscale? did events repeat?! did they:?!?!?! 18:42:30 *no : 18:43:10 elliott: my vision goes greyscale whenever there's insufficient light for my cones to function correctly 18:43:35 (which doesn't happen all that often, given the amount of light in the modern-day world even at night) 18:43:35 ais523: wow, you approached zzo38 a bit there 18:43:38 be careful 18:43:56 ais523: zzo38, btw, is now planning to make his own implementation of *TeX* 18:44:01 to include in his linux distribution 18:44:03 elliott: heh, most people can be like that; it's just zzo38 who does it as a way of life 18:44:26 elliott: you just have to wait for him to reimplement the rest of the userland and the kernel too 18:44:28 gotta meet him IRL before i die. 18:44:30 and then we'll have a new free OS 18:44:35 would be an... experience 18:45:00 "sartak"? 18:45:26 Vorpal: invented TAEB, did wowdeath 18:45:28 disappeared 18:45:33 ^ complete bio 18:45:33 elliott, ah 18:45:43 chronology of the first two may be backwards 18:45:44 dunno 18:46:40 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 18:46:55 elliott, sure about the chronology of the third? 18:47:09 uh, yes. 18:47:14 as ais523 has said, he's not in nethack channels any more. 18:47:39 elliott, well, then I guess there is a chance time travel was not involved 18:47:43 wow, this conversation has degenerated into pointlessness pretty rapidly 18:47:49 ais523: fun, isn't it? 18:48:07 not particularly 18:48:37 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 18:48:41 ais523, you slept too well then (not tired enough to think rather silly and not really funny things are funny) 18:48:52 Vorpal: I'm rarely /that/ tired 18:49:38 although your observation then explains a lot 18:49:41 ais523, oh. Happens to be on regular basis. I guess the individual tiredness threshold differs 18:49:43 especially if s/tired/drunk/ 18:49:50 ais523, I'm a teetotaller 18:50:05 ais523: he just gets drunk on boring 18:50:10 (um, that's a semantic s///, not a textual substitution one) 18:50:12 his boring accumulates over the course of a day 18:50:16 and he gets drunk on it 18:50:16 ais523, err 18:50:19 leading tot he observed effects 18:50:21 elliott: I'm a teetotaller too, but am still capable of getting effectively drunk 18:50:21 *to the 18:50:34 via lack of sleep 18:50:37 elliott, you promised to never be mean to me, remember? 18:50:39 or occasionally just on vapour 18:50:50 Vorpal: only when GreaseMonkey was around 18:51:17 elliott, retroactively adding clauses is cheating 18:51:25 i had my fingers crossed 18:51:54 where does that myth come from, fiction? 18:52:05 ais523, I was just thinking of asking the same thing 18:52:07 ais523: what, crossing fingers? 18:52:13 it comes from schoolkids 18:52:18 elliott: for the purpose of making a signature invalid? 18:52:19 ah, makes sense 18:52:29 ais523, how does it make sense? 18:52:31 crossing fingers for luck, don't know 18:52:42 Vorpal: it makes about as much sense as cooties 18:53:00 come to think of it, if there was proof that a) you did cross your fingers while signing, and b) the other person should have interpreted it as a sign that you weren't really agreeing to the contract or whatever 18:53:02 * Vorpal googles that word 18:53:06 then the contract probably isn't correctly agreed 18:53:13 ais523: you can hide them 18:53:17 and it's still valid 18:53:27 oh yeah that makes no sense 18:53:33 (but the other party can look first, so you have to e.g. cross your toes) 18:53:42 common playground law :) 18:54:02 elliott, is crossing toes valid? 18:54:03 playground law is famous for a) making no sense at all, and b) being inconsistent from person to person 18:54:06 it leads to really bizarre arguments 18:54:17 Vorpal: well. probably. but people will hate you 18:54:24 mhm 18:54:46 ais523: clearly, we need playground judges 18:54:50 to establish precedent 18:55:01 ais523, btw, do you know how insane the linux ipsec tunnel implementation is? 18:55:06 Vorpal: on 18:55:07 *no 18:55:21 I'm guessing from the fact you asked the question that it's insane, though 18:55:29 ais523, would you expect it to use some of pseudo-interface, such as a tun interface? 18:55:46 Vorpal: I wouldn't really expect anything, due to caring insufficiently about the details 18:56:38 Seems that the pullup filter does wonderful, wonderful things to this video. 18:57:00 Namely, it gets out sane, 24fps video. 18:57:28 ais523, well, it doesn't use one. Instead it uses some kind of ipsec policy and weird route. Weird route like: " via metric 0 proto static" (otherwise the packet wouldn't get far enough to be redirected to the tunnel). 18:57:56 hmm, sometimes the only difference between Vorpal and zzo38 is that Vorpal gives you the context 18:57:56 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:58:00 I'm not entirely sure which way I like better 18:58:08 ais523, and doing wireshark at either tunnel end point makes the packages show up twice, once as encrypted and once as decrypted (I verified with a third computer that was not actually sent over the wire) 18:58:26 ais523: wow, yes 18:58:29 s/packages/packets/ 18:58:42 ais523: ais523, well, it doesn't use one. Instead it uses some kind of ipsec policy and weird route. Weird route like: " via metric 0 proto static" (otherwise the packet wouldn't get far enough to be redirected to the tunnel). 18:58:42 ais523, is that bad or good? 18:58:45 ais523: is pretty close to a zzo line... 18:59:07 elliott, I don't use *quite* as awkward grammar. 18:59:11 yes, but... 18:59:14 if you rephrased it 18:59:17 elliott, and he is in here you know 18:59:22 Vorpal: I wasn't thinking about the grammar at all 18:59:22 and? 18:59:47 elliott, "if you rephrased what you just said, you could make it sound like someone else, but you don't need to do that, if you don't want to, that is" 18:59:59 elliott, your point? 19:00:13 Vorpal: you are completely missing the non-grammatical aspects of zzo's personality... 19:00:16 still, one of the joys about IRC and/or Usenet is that you can basically talk about anything 19:00:23 Aaaaw, not *quite*. 19:00:27 ais523: usenet -- as long as it's spam 19:00:27 and one of the other joys is that you don't necessarily have to listen 19:00:30 elliott, well I know about them too, but they don't stand out quite as much as the grammatical ones 19:00:35 Vorpal: Yes. Yes they do. 19:00:55 elliott, that sounded very much like someone else. 19:01:02 elliott, someone from xkcd I think 19:01:12 elliott: mentally filtering out Usenet spam isn't too hard, around as hard as mentally filtering out email spam 19:01:20 ais523: do you have a spam filter? 19:01:25 slightly harder than mentally filtering out adverts 19:01:42 elliott: for email, there are two competing spam filters checking my email, neither of which is under my control 19:01:54 I have yet to come across a good usenet spamfilter. I guess no one really cares about writing one 19:02:14 and I assume the yahoo account is also spam-filtered, although perhaps not (the "spam" folder rarely gets anything, and when it does it's generally a legit email) 19:02:44 Vorpal: apparently, most Usenet servers other than Google Groups are pretty good at filtering it 19:02:51 has anyone used a BSD in a VM? 19:03:02 elliott: it would be implausible if they hadn't 19:03:05 ais523: the primary joy of irc is that you can talk about nothing 19:03:07 ais523: anyone *here* 19:03:08 ais523: 19:03:11 relatively recently 19:03:18 ais523, yes, the one I use drastically lowered spam amount about half a year ago 19:03:19 quintopia: alas 19:03:27 ais523, but there are no good client-integrated ones 19:03:30 (I'm assuming that second nickping was a joke, rather than a mistake?) 19:03:32 as there are in many email clients 19:03:35 such as thunderbird 19:03:40 ais523: 19:03:47 yep 19:03:51 has anyone used a BSD in a VM? <-- yes 19:04:02 Vorpal: which (BSD and VM)? 19:04:25 elliott, I used freebsd (64-bit) in virtualbox (with Intel's VT stuff) about 4 months ago9 19:04:27 ago* 19:04:35 elliott, don't have the install around any longer it seems 19:04:39 but, it just worked 19:04:51 i'm trying to do 32-bit netbsd and i don't have vt. 19:04:52 joy 19:05:03 neither virtualbox nor qemu can boot it OOTB 19:05:05 wait 19:05:05 elliott, well, you need vt for the 64-bit stuff in virtualbox 19:05:07 qemu can install netbsd 19:05:12 but then i get network issues 19:05:33 elliott, I never got network to work under qemu for any OS. Never tried very hard though 19:05:46 it usually just works. 19:05:54 hell, i got it working in NT 4 for MIPS. 19:06:04 elliott, didn't with plan9, which was the last thing I used under qemu 19:06:20 it would probably have if you tweaked the plan9 config 19:06:20 Vorpal: it works pretty trivially (I can't remember whether it needs a command-line option or not), but you don't get an externally visible IP 19:06:23 like everything :p 19:06:24 I think it does some sort of NATing 19:06:36 ais523: no option needed; it has a default 19:06:51 elliott, yeah, but well then venti decided to lock up and I had other stuff to do :P 19:06:55 so I never got that far 19:06:55 sweet 19:07:02 mknod segfaults when booting netbsd livecd in virtualbox 19:07:06 ooh, now an abort trap 19:07:07 (wut???) 19:07:20 ais523, virtualbox NATs too by default 19:07:25 it is sort of fucked up. 19:07:30 elliott, your system is jinxed 19:07:33 no 19:07:35 just virtualbox 19:07:51 elliott, I used netbsd (again 64-bit) about a year ago under virtualbox (again intel vt stuff) 19:08:11 vt changes a lot. 19:08:16 elliott, true 19:08:19 also, vt is slower than virtualbox software emulation iirc :) 19:08:22 or at least it was a few years ago 19:08:25 elliott, depends on the OS 19:08:42 elliott, in my experience it varies widely from case to case which is fastest 19:09:04 elliott, and it is required for 64-bit guests, so... 19:09:32 elliott, I hate to say it, but the only OS I found "snappy" under virtualbox was 64-bit xp pro. 19:09:53 elliott, it is fast enough to feel like "almost native" 19:10:15 the bsds have always sucked at VMs : 19:10:16 *:/ 19:10:33 and i am almost certain it will not like all my hardware, so i'm not about to install it without playing first 19:10:47 elliott, oh yes, I remember freebsd was a pain to get working back in vmware server (this was before virtualbox existed, or before it was widely known at least) 19:11:14 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 19:11:20 Okay, it *seems* that what's happening is that this video is occasionally using the wrong field order. 19:11:33 pikhq, eh, what 19:11:53 pikhq, is it interlaced or something? 19:12:08 Vorpal: It's telecined poorly. 19:13:23 I'm *trying* to get mplayer's filters to do the "right thing". 19:15:05 pikhq, btw, you said it would be nice to be able to store dvds remuxed. And said about 8 gb for each. I just thought about that number.... That means a 128 on a 1 TiB disk.... You would need a large RAID array to be able to store any decent number of dvds that way 19:15:05 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 19:15:49 Vorpal: you have more than 128 dvds? 19:16:13 elliott, no, but I don't think pikhq is average. After all he said he had all SNES roms :P 19:16:44 you can get at least 2TB disks nowadays, that'd be 256 DVD:s per disk 19:16:46 -!- sebbu has joined. 19:16:55 I plan to build a huuuuge RAID at one point 19:17:09 like 5-10 TiB, preferably enough to have that mirrored too 19:17:10 pipe dream, but :P 19:17:14 disk is only getting cheaper! 19:17:22 the problem is 19:17:27 think of the unholy racket those disks will make! 19:17:32 elliott, well, I think I finally reached a system that will last for more than one year before it starts to get cramped 19:17:34 wow, a 5 disk raid array, that's huuuuge 19:17:44 olsner: well, no, it'd be 10 19:17:49 elliott, I mean, I have more than 600 GB unallocated! 19:17:50 assuming 1 TiB disks and mirroring 19:17:54 olsner: and that *is* huge for home usage 19:18:06 ...i guess i could network it somewhere so i don't have to see or hear it, but then access time would suffer 19:18:30 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:18:49 elliott, I talked to someone yesterday who recently installed a 60 TB RAID thingy. Hardware RAID, iSCSI, infiband. You name it. 19:18:53 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 19:19:02 elliott, sadly not for home usage 19:19:11 Vorpal: if it was for home usage I'd... just want to punch him 19:19:19 elliott, no that would be bad 19:19:23 because 60 TiB for home usage is wasteful to the max :) 19:19:29 elliott, I mean, you would be a prime suspect when it goes missing! 19:19:31 in a really crazy way 19:19:41 Vorpal: HEY I WOULD DIVIDE IT INTO SIX AND DISTRIBUTE IT AMONG THE PEOPLE 19:19:44 COMMUNISM! 19:20:28 elliott, I doubt it, would need reconfiguring. And iirc it used 2 redundant RAID controllers, not 6 19:20:37 well, for the top level that is 19:20:47 it was of course multi-layered 19:20:55 you just don't run plain RAID6 on that :P 19:21:22 it is actually ridiculous how cheap disk is getting 19:22:31 elliott, yeah well, you wouldn't use desktop disks in such an array 19:22:36 you can get 5 TB at 5400 rpm for $300 19:22:50 because 60 TiB for home usage is wasteful to the max :) 19:22:53 *TB probably :P 19:22:56 elliott, you would use server disks, which are smaller, generally higher RPM, lasts longer, and more expensive 19:23:00 yeah 19:23:04 not for a home system though :) 19:23:14 how much disk does RAID 5 get you again? 19:23:18 compared to the raw space 19:23:37 ah 19:23:45 smallest_size * (drives - 1) 19:23:52 pikhq: you disagreed with that last time, didn't you? 19:23:57 well, yeah you don't use different sized drivers in general 19:24:23 anyway, then, you can get 4 TB of RAID 5'd 5400 rpm storage for $300 19:24:26 going by the wikipedia article 19:24:32 not bad at all 19:24:55 elliott, btw, if you do software raid (you almost certainly will), and don't care about RAID1 for swap. Don't do RAID0 for those partitions. That is just wasteful and also messes with suspend to disk. 19:25:05 elliott, what you do is assign both same priority in fstab 19:25:11 then the kernel will interleave writes 19:25:13 Vorpal: this wouldn't be an OS drive 19:25:17 it'd be an additional mounted drive 19:25:18 elliott, ah 19:25:22 *probably* over the network 19:25:33 elliott: you want a massive drive just for spare storage purposes? 19:25:34 elliott, the SAN? 19:25:37 is there a way to do a local network storage device without using nfs or anything of the sort? 19:25:47 elliott, iSCSI 19:25:48 i just want the equivalent of a really long cable :) 19:25:51 ais523: no, it'd be for bulk storage 19:25:52 elliott, but uh... 19:26:08 elliott: that's pretty much what I meant 19:26:08 ais523: e.g. media (movies, tv series, etc.), large data sets 19:26:14 I suppose it could make sense for some people 19:26:20 ais523: well, i wouldn't really go for 5 TiB unless i needed it 19:26:27 *TV 19:26:29 *TB 19:26:30 although I grew up on floppy disks, and am horrified at the large file sizes of today 19:26:33 but 1 TB i can see myself usnig up 19:26:34 *using 19:26:35 elliott, do you realise that you want two NICs then? 19:26:38 elliott: ? 19:26:41 Vorpal: lawl 19:26:42 pikhq: RAID 5 19:26:46 pikhq: you disagreed with wikipedia last time 19:26:46 elliott, you want a dedicated SAN 19:26:57 I use CIFS for my networked storage 19:26:58 when wikipedia said that it would give smallest_drive * (num_of_drives - 1) 19:26:58 space 19:27:02 ais523: oh, i dislike large filesizes for no reason 19:27:05 elliott: It should be smallest_size * (drives - 1) for RAID 5, yeah... 19:27:10 elliott, you don't want this over your normal ethernet. because as far as I remember, it is not friendly to other traffic 19:27:12 hm 19:27:12 ais523: but e.g. HD video is large because it's high quality 19:27:14 pikhq: OK 19:27:16 *Okay 19:27:22 or even *ok 19:27:24 I wonder how badly swap over iSCSI would work 19:27:35 elliott: "high quality"? HD is 1024x768, isn't it? 19:27:39 it seems likely that if kernel is trying to swap because lack of memory that would be a really really bad idea 19:27:41 ais523: er, no. 19:27:51 ais523: 720p, the lowest HD, is 1280x720 19:28:04 ais523: 1080p, i.e. something that actually looks high-definition, is 1920x1080 19:28:32 And 1080i is a monstrosity. 19:28:32 ais523: now consider that you use a high quality video format, like H.264, encoded with a good codec with settings optimised for quality, like x264... 19:28:37 elliott, idea: iSCSI + distributed network filesystem (several computers can access the same *physical* storage unit at once, writing to the same file system. And no, not like nfs. 19:28:46 elliott: well, I think that all existing video codecs suck 19:28:46 ais523: and you get a movie that takes up quite some gigabytes 19:28:54 especially at things they aren't designed for 19:28:57 you need one of those cluster FSes 19:29:01 ais523: x264 is designed very well 19:29:07 like. ocfs2 or whatever the other one was called 19:29:07 for live action and animation video 19:29:12 idling #tasvideos, you get lots of discussions about how to get computer games looking as realistic as possible 19:29:15 Dark Shikari is basically obsessive about it 19:29:17 ais523, elliott, 4000p! 19:29:20 and x264 is an awful codec for those 19:29:25 ais523: right, well, that's not what it's designed for 19:29:33 I imagine MNG would be better, but nobody really supports it 19:29:37 live action and animated TV/movies it encodes superbly 19:29:44 it's pretty much the highest you can get 19:29:55 i mean, there's a reason the highest-quality blu-ray releases use H.264 19:29:57 elliott: it tends to disintegrate with fast-moving backgrounds 19:30:01 and x264 is by far the best H.264 codec 19:30:11 ais523: maybe pixely ones. 19:30:14 ais523: Believe me, other lossy codecs are worse. 19:30:24 elliott: things like tickertape falling from the ceiling 19:30:24 ais523, why use a lossy codec? 19:30:26 pikhq: oh, I believe you 19:30:30 ais523: Also, what bitrate are you guys trying this at? 19:30:35 Vorpal: because lossless leads to insane filesizes? 19:30:35 Vorpal: you have no idea how big lossless video is. 19:30:40 ais523, oh right 19:30:42 pikhq: oh, i've heard ais523 talking about these guys 19:30:46 pikhq: they're serious encoder dudes 19:30:49 like tweaking settings all day 19:30:56 elliott, yes I do. Several TB for a normal movie. 19:30:57 so i don't doubt that x264 fails at what they're doing 19:31:05 Vorpal: In SD. 19:31:09 pikhq: they produce videos encoded in such an insane way that only VLC can handle the resulting videos 19:31:12 Vorpal: In HD... probably ... like... 50 TiB. 19:31:12 elliott: For pixellated sources, I'd *imagine* that lossless would be at tolerable size. 19:31:16 ais523: Doubtful. 19:31:17 Vorpal: Consider this: 19:31:22 *Not even movie editing is done losslessly*. 19:31:27 They use a very high-quality lossy codec. 19:31:35 As soon as they start editing it on a computer. 19:31:43 And even *that* requires insane RAID to store. 19:31:50 elliott, I read about digital editing systems for those multi-IMAX-on-a-sphere cinemas. 19:31:54 elliott, insane :D 19:32:02 ais523: Most Linux media players use the same video handling routines; libavcodec is pretty much THE way to play video. 19:32:05 Vorpal: wait, how are you supposed to see everything? 19:32:05 IIRC even VLC uses it. 19:32:10 what if someone gets murdered behind you? :p 19:32:14 elliott, err, half-sphere 19:32:18 elliott, typo 19:32:20 right 19:32:30 pikhq: well, I know that Totem at least fails on the things with variable video framerates but constant audio framerates 19:32:35 pikhq: "Many of VLC's codecs are provided by the libavcodec library from the FFmpeg project, but it uses mainly its own muxer and demuxers." 19:32:36 elliott, there is one in Stockholm. Pretty impressive. 19:32:43 the muxers and demuxers would matter in ais523's example there 19:32:44 elliott, ever been to one? 19:32:50 Vorpal: no -- not even an IMAX 19:33:03 ais523: mplayer fails at *encoding* such things, but I'm pretty sure it handles them just fine. 19:33:11 elliott, the one in stockholm have like 7 separate IMAX-projectors with special lenses. 19:33:13 elliott: Well, it's actually just *barely* possible to get lossless compressed video going on normal hardware... For SD. 19:33:50 elliott, and speakers spread out all over behind the half-sphere thingy 19:34:38 elliott: I'm personally unconvinced that DCT is a sensible way to encode video 19:35:01 it makes sense for low-frequency images, but there are better ways to encode segments of images that you know are low-frequency 19:35:08 clearly we should use a Slow Fourier Transform 19:35:11 (I, for kicks, did that with Elephant's Dream. They distribute PNG-per-frame for it... 21G for 10 minutes of video.) 19:35:29 pikhq: please tell me you made it into an MNG 19:35:32 Oh, wait. That's the 1080p. 19:35:38 for high-frequency images, the results it produces don't really correspond to the original 19:35:49 pikhq: wait 19:35:54 pikhq: so a 100 minute movie could be only 210G? 19:36:09 elliott: If *compressed losslessly*, yes. 19:36:16 i approve highly 19:36:20 ais523, indeed. 19:36:25 And that's for 1080p. 19:36:26 Dang. 19:36:28 pikhq: but that'll be the result, which will have been edited 19:36:30 That's actually entirely practical. 19:36:30 at lossy quality 19:36:33 really, the descriptions of DCT I see - decompose the image into frequency components, delete the ones with low amplitude - in practice effectively becomes "decompose the image into frequency components, ignore the high-frequency ones" 19:36:35 ais523, do professional movie productions try to avoid it or something? 19:36:35 probably 19:36:53 Slightly painful, sure, but it's entirely practical to do lossless video editing. 19:36:56 Vorpal: no, because all JPEG-like codecs are based on it, effectively 19:36:57 \o/ 19:37:00 for both images and video 19:37:00 pikhq: no 19:37:03 pikhq: the images that the png are 19:37:07 will be frames from a lossy video 19:37:10 in a high-quality lossy codec 19:37:13 that the film was edited in 19:37:14 that's my bet 19:37:21 ais523, I meant, try to avoid stuff where it gives bad results 19:37:29 oh, possibly 19:37:32 elliott: No, no, no. The Elephant's Dream 1080p PNG files are the *output from the 3D renderer*. 19:37:39 pikhq: oh. fair enough then :D 19:37:56 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/JPEG_JFIF_and_2000_Comparison.png jpeg 200: worse than jpeg! 19:38:07 wouldn't the input to the 3D renderer be considerably smaller? 19:38:13 that would make a better codec in that example 19:38:22 ais523: but decompression would take many, many hours 19:38:23 days, even 19:38:23 except for the fact that it would take too long to decode 19:38:24 elliott, what is the point of that format 19:38:27 elliott: indeed 19:38:31 Vorpal: jpeg 2000? it's the official successor to jpeg 19:38:39 ais523: Yes. They distribute *that* on the DVDs. 19:38:47 Along with the actual DVD video. 19:38:54 elliott, is that just a worst-case image? Or is that representative of the general results? 19:38:54 yep, makes sense 19:38:59 Vorpal: well it is a small image 19:39:03 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JPEG_2000 19:39:20 "JPEG 2000 has many design commonalities with the ICER image compression format that is used to send images back from the Mars rovers." 19:39:26 now, you can imagine something larger than the actual sources, but similar 19:39:32 elliott, hah 19:39:50 elliott, no one uses jpeg 2000, and it has been around for years 19:39:52 something like a 3D input format that's partially rendered 19:40:14 hmm, theory: is it possible to cache things between frames when 3D rendering? 19:40:22 I see no theoretical reason why it /wouldn't/ be, at least in some cases 19:40:40 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICER 19:40:58 hmm, theory: is it possible to cache things between frames when 3D rendering? 19:41:09 MNG vs APNG 19:41:10 fight! 19:41:11 ais523, you asked that already 19:41:18 *(it's this sort of reasoning that lead to me working on that roguelike routing algorithm) 19:41:28 Vorpal: I know; if I repeat a line unexpectedly, it's almost always due to a typo 19:41:33 my IRC client makes that typo rather easy 19:41:42 ais523, anyway. Depends on illumination model I would guess. 19:41:47 "APNG hides the subsequent frames in PNG ancillary chunks in such a way that APNG-unaware applications would ignore them, but there are otherwise no changes to the format to allow software to distinguish between animated and non-animated images." 19:41:47 lame 19:42:11 "Mozilla Firefox added support for APNG in version 3 trunk builds on March 23, 2007.[5] However, because libpng is the PNG Group's reference implementation of the official specification, APNG support can never be supported in the main libpng distribution so long as it remains unratified by the Group. Consequently, Iceweasel 3 does not support APNG.[6]" 19:42:23 ais523, with raytraceing, moving anything could change how light reflects and that could give effects way later in the path of the photon 19:42:34 Iceweasel vs GNU IceCat: discuss 19:42:36 elliott: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:2d41d737527e809d7511d0643b49bdfae5e6ad8e YOU KNOW YOU WANT TO. 19:42:47 ais523, effects of a local change _could_ be global 19:42:49 Vorpal: indeed; but full raytracing is rarely actually used 19:43:03 and even then, you can cache parts of the calculation that aren't illumination 19:43:04 pikhq: OH MY GOD WHY WOULD YOU LINK ME TO AN IMAGE OF A BEAR KICKING A CAT AND A PUPPY 19:43:19 ais523, go to the examples on povray's website ;P 19:43:19 elliott: I actually prefer the name Iceweasel 19:43:20 elliott: It's about 21 gigs of PNGs. :) 19:43:27 Vorpal: I know it's been done 19:43:27 ais523: ditto, it's also less GNU, which helps 19:43:30 pikhq: oh, fuck you :P 19:43:34 ais523, and the results are often awesome 19:43:40 pikhq: no peers yet! 19:43:40 that doesn't make it actually often used, though 19:43:49 it's just too CPU-intensive with modern technology 19:43:57 ais523, anyway, even with more everyday-raytracing, you could get global effects from local changes 19:44:02 just somewhat less risk 19:44:05 "GNU IceCat is available as a free download for the IA-32 and PowerPC architectures. Both binaries and source are available, though the current build is available only for GNU/Linux." 19:44:14 We don't need no 64-bit! 19:44:17 It not FREE. 19:44:25 elliott: From xiph.org's test media. :) 19:44:34 pikhq: can't get any peers. sorry 19:44:43 ais523, radiosity, not sure how global that is 19:44:45 Aaaw. 19:45:10 Vorpal: you are missing my point 19:45:17 -!- calamari has joined. 19:45:28 even if, say, illlumination can't be cached, things like shaders often could be 19:45:44 "Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come." --Friedrich Nietzsche 19:45:44 ais523, hm perhaps. 19:45:50 Oh, wow. *Raw* 480p of Elephant's Dream is just 7.5GB. 19:45:55 That's *without any compression at all*. 19:46:08 elliott: please tell me that's a genuine quote 19:46:20 somehow, it looks like one of those "nonsense attributed to a famous person to make it amusing" quotes 19:46:23 PRACTICAL! 19:46:27 ais523: it is if you wrap it in another layer of quotes and append "--Matt Groening" to the end 19:46:34 but, alas, no 19:47:10 ais523: Debian so need to put that in the about box 19:47:16 or about:mozilla, if it still exists and shows the silly fake Bible thing 19:47:24 (i bet mozilla.org removed that because of OFFENCE) 19:47:26 ais523, isn't shaders mostly used for rendering on GPUs? Which means it wouldn't be pre-rendered anyway 19:47:29 aren't* 19:47:53 I may be completely wrong 19:48:01 (I'm not 3D expert) 19:48:04 no* 19:48:18 Vorpal: shaders are used for everything 19:48:50 put it this way: out of the things usually used in a graphics pipeline, shaders are the TC bit 19:49:12 pikhq: There are no good panel applications for X11. Please rectify this. 19:49:36 ais523, the wp article on shaders is bad. It doesn't seem to mention it in the context of rendering for movies and such at all. Just for the GPU context. 19:49:56 Vorpal: well, a shader is basically a bit of code that runs on the GPU 19:50:04 modifying either vertices or pixels in arbitrary ways 19:50:23 you'd do much the same thing for, say, smoke effects in a 3D movie 19:50:29 ais523, so they are not used when you render something in blender or povray? 19:50:56 it almost certainly depends on what you're rendering 19:51:11 povray probably doesn't use them because it's insane; I expect blender would, though 19:51:38 One reason why lwm is excellent: Its original developer is "elliotth". 19:51:52 That "elliotth" happens to maintain an editor which is inspired by Plan 9's acme. 19:51:55 hah! 19:51:59 Clone, right? SORRY NO HE USES JAVA. 19:52:03 But, you know. 19:52:06 It's better than nothing! 19:52:09 ais523, traditionally "offline" rendering software did not use the GPU at all 19:52:27 The h actually stands for hughes, regrettably. But whatever. 19:52:43 ais523, it just goes about raytracing on the CPU, until it is done 19:53:10 but GPUs are faster for that sort of calculation 19:53:11 *Hughes, 19:54:31 ais523, well yes, it would use it as GP-GPU though, you don't want opengl/directx rendering look to it. You want something that looks way more realistic 19:56:13 no shit 19:56:16 you do that as shaders 19:56:32 elliott, would work yes 19:56:46 adanaxis uses shaders in order to get 4D rendering 19:56:55 presumably, it has a 4D->3D projection shader as a vertex shader 19:56:56 haha 19:57:23 and then lets the graphics lib handle 3D->2D 19:57:24 i think adanaxis would break my brain 19:57:35 it's not that bad, really 19:57:35 ais523, also blender for offline rendering still worked on sucky GPUs last I checked 19:57:43 ais523: i am really terrible at envisioning higher dimensions 19:57:46 tried a 4d maze game once 19:57:50 was so bad it wasn't even funny 19:57:53 ais523, such as old on-board intel in laptop 19:57:58 ais523: how does it represent 4d? 19:58:04 old enough to probably not have very advanced shaders 19:58:07 elliott: strangely, with adanaxis I can't visualise where everything is, but I can visualise how I need to move to get there 19:58:26 ais523, was it free or? I don't remember 19:58:33 and via color, and with coordinates of everything relative to your current heading marked on it 19:58:34 Vorpal: gpl with some commercial data available, it seems 19:58:36 "But other objects are rendered, very roughly, as projections of 4D objects on the 2D screen.[6] In the game manual, the author says he didn’t yet figure out how to implement real 4D and 4D explosions without making the game require a thousand times more processing power.[1]" 19:58:37 *Finally* figured out how I'm going to do this. pullup followed by the yadif deinterlacer. 19:58:43 "The game is distributed under the Mushware Software License version 1.4, which refers to the GNU GPL v2, the public domain, proprietary and a number of other licenses." 19:58:53 Vorpal: there's a GPL version, which is the main version minus all the proprietary stuff 19:59:00 it's the version I use, but it's only available for Linux 19:59:03 aah 19:59:14 ais523, well, I'm going to use linux definitely 19:59:30 ais523, I can't find the source download 19:59:40 Vorpal: what distro are you on? 19:59:42 Wait 19:59:47 What's this about 4D? 19:59:48 ais523, arch linux, 64-bit 19:59:51 hmm 19:59:52 It's imperfect, but best I can do. 19:59:57 ais523, they only have .deb and .rpm 19:59:57 it's in the repos on Ubuntu (and presumably Debian) 20:00:09 ais523, and I definitely don't want to play this on on-board intel graphics :P 20:00:11 Vorpal: is there a source .deb? 20:00:17 i'm sure it'll work with intel 20:00:19 also, onboard Intel graphics is what I use to play it 20:00:19 ais523, no 20:00:20 ais523 has intel 20:00:28 I get intel graphics deliberately, because they work well with Linux 20:00:32 elliott, probably but smaller screen and such 20:00:36 as well 20:00:47 Vorpal: well, i have the same system as him except with 1366x768 20:00:53 Vorpal: the game isn't massively intensive 20:01:00 elliott, I doubt I could get 4xAA with it. I can with my desktop though 20:01:03 elliott: "except"? mine is also 1366x768, IIRC 20:01:11 I'd get dizzy 20:01:13 Vorpal: is your enjoyment of a game directly enhanced by that extra AA? 20:01:13 yep, just checked 20:01:19 ais523: i thought you had the 11 inch version 20:01:25 same screen res 20:01:26 smaller screen 20:01:29 ah, found it I think 20:01:32 ais523: damn you and your higher ppi! 20:01:34 the pixels are smaller, I think 20:01:37 elliott: and take that back? 20:01:40 ais523: no, just closer together 20:01:44 ais523: bah, fine, i take it back 20:01:49 -!- yiyus_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:01:55 i only wish you to be tortured for a billion years because of ppi, not eternity 20:01:57 >_> 20:02:13 ais523: i can understand how "damn you" is insulting if you're religious and believe in hell 20:02:25 wait, there is one saying "control demo 0.0.1, source files" and one saying "rendering demo 0.0.1, source files" 20:02:25 but how can me saying it be offensive, as i absolutely do not believe that any such thing will or should happen? 20:02:34 not the same demo 20:02:45 "If you'd like to build from source, GPL releases will be along towards the end of July 2007. These will contain source code but not the commercially-sourced graphics and audio (because of the distribution terms of that content). " 20:02:46 well. 20:02:50 seems like that didn't happen 20:02:54 elliott: well, insults can be offensive even if you don't need them 20:02:58 Vorpal: yes it did 20:02:59 afaik 20:02:59 ppi? 20:03:01 it's in debian 20:03:03 Vorpal: I have that versoin /installed/ 20:03:08 so of course source is available 20:03:09 ais523, the source one? 20:03:12 ais523: "need"? 20:03:13 well 20:03:15 Sgeo: pixels per inch 20:03:21 elliott: *mean 20:03:29 elliott, look at, http://www.mushware.com/portal.php?page=10 notice it says 1.1.4 and such? 20:03:44 elliott, then look at the version numbers on http://www.mushware.com/dload.php?action=category&cat_id=7&sid=b132c2cf9fa05a3a16320b70609bc36e 20:03:52 Vorpal: look harder. debian would never package non-free software. 20:03:55 like that 20:04:33 * coppro plots out course plans for the coming years 20:04:35 elliott, hm I guess I could download the source from debian. 20:04:37 Vorpal: failing that, get the source from debian. 20:04:45 elliott, hah, 2 seconds before you ;) 20:04:50 elliott: I just did that, uploading to filebin.ca now 20:04:58 so three people have the same idea 20:05:13 ais523: err, why upload it? 20:05:18 it's available from 438593745934578934578934598345 mirrors already 20:05:33 presumably it'll be in a package 20:05:41 I extracted the orig.tar.gz from the .deb, and am uploading that 20:05:43 no 20:05:45 "[adanaxisgpl_1.2.5.dfsg.1.orig.tar.gz]" 20:05:49 see packages.debian.org/stable/adanaxisgpl 20:05:50 ah, OK 20:05:52 * ais523 cancels 20:06:07 the dfsg in the version number is pretty interesting 20:06:15 presumably, Debian had to modify it to make it open source 20:06:17 indeed 20:06:18 -!- quintopia has left (?). 20:06:58 -!- catseye has joined. 20:06:58 "The documentation for this package is supplied in a PDF file named 20:06:59 data-adanaxis/About_Adanaxis_GPL.pdf" 20:07:00 it's not there :D 20:07:01 hi catseye 20:07:02 aha, reading the copyright you know what happened? 20:07:03 what OS? 20:07:09 ais523: ? 20:07:17 let's see... an empty directory isn't preserved in .zip files 20:07:19 elliott: Windows Vista! 20:07:27 /kick catseye 20:07:33 m00f 20:07:37 so in order to make sure the distro unpacked properly, the Adanaxis added an empty file to it, as normal 20:07:47 anyway, they somehow managed to specify that the empty file in question wasn't GPL 20:08:13 "the Adanaxis"? 20:08:20 *Adanaxis person 20:08:28 so Debian replaced it 20:08:35 I think, it's quite hard to follow what happened 20:09:08 ais523: with another empty file? 20:09:13 Gregor: while your Persistent Pessimism Principle serves well, in this case it did not hold, as it was overridden by Laziness ("what is the least we must do to reinstall Windows on this laptop" resolved to "only touch the Windows partition") 20:09:24 elliott: with a comment saying /* this is GPL */ or something along those lines, I think 20:09:47 I may have misinterpreted this 20:09:52 but I hope I haven't, as it's hilarious 20:10:10 oh, I am wrong 20:10:18 what happened was that the source was split into GPL/PD/proprietary 20:10:30 with filename conditions to tell which was which 20:10:49 and after removing the proprietary stuff, they had to add a stub to get it to compile 20:10:57 with the same filename as what was there 20:11:39 and so there's a big exception saying that despite the license, the file in question is actually GPL 20:12:08 haha 20:12:50 despite being, basically, an empty file 20:13:03 DFLAGS="-Wl,-z,defs" 20:13:04 err 20:13:06 LDFLAGS* 20:13:14 debian/rules sets that 20:13:19 I wonder what it does 20:13:28 C-INTERCAL uses "-Wl,-z,muldefs" 20:13:34 in order to delete redundant copies of main() 20:13:39 defs 20:13:39 Disallows undefined symbols in object files. Undefined symbols in shared libraries are still allowed. 20:13:49 ais523, hah 20:13:59 ais523, hope it deletes the right one then 20:14:06 Vorpal: they're all identical anyway... 20:14:13 ah 20:14:19 that's... nice 20:14:28 what if they weren't? 20:14:31 it just picks one? 20:14:36 the first one, IIRC 20:14:48 that's very computery of it 20:15:08 ais523, which one is the first one? 20:15:12 normally it errors out, but when you specifically tell it not to, it has to do something else 20:15:24 Vorpal: first on the command line, first in the archive as a tiebreak, I imagine 20:15:30 ais523, why did someone decide to add an option to not error out on that 20:15:42 because it's useful? 20:15:46 (proof that it's useful: I used it) 20:16:02 ais523, uh, c-intercal is not very normal so... 20:16:10 Vorpal: that doesn't mean it isn't useful, though! 20:16:18 "isn't normally used" != "not useful" 20:16:21 I mean, the normal case would be handled by the compiler marking it as common or such 20:16:34 not for functions though 20:16:42 well, exactly 20:17:17 ais523: does that mean you can put definitions in header files? 20:17:20 that is int x = 3; 20:17:39 elliott: I suppose so, although it would screw with whole-program optimization 20:17:55 and seems rather like a bad idea 20:18:11 you could even put int x = 5; in a different header file 20:18:42 configure: Verdict was: 20:18:42 configure: CPPFLAGS= -I/usr/include/SDL -D_GNU_SOURCE=1 -D_REENTRANT -I${srcdir} -I${srcdir}/API -DNDEBUG -I${srcdir}/Platform/X11 20:18:46 nice way to phrase it 20:19:01 oh and it also lists LDFLAGS and LIBS there 20:19:32 THAT FOX HAS NO TAIL AND IT IS HUGGING THAT PLANET 20:19:58 catseye: You mean the... Firefox logo? 20:20:11 Its body is sort of a tail. 20:20:15 It doesn't make much anatomical sense. 20:20:25 Wait, I meant, no legs. 20:20:35 It's sort of ALL tail. 20:20:36 catseye, why now. I mean, it been around for a numbers of years... 20:20:37 Shower in 10min :D:D:D<3 20:21:03 elliott: Y'know the perfect solution to the various framerates out there? High-quality CRT HDTV that handles them all. DONE. 20:21:07 :P 20:21:14 Sgeo, err... why :D:D:D 20:21:16 elliott: I remember a discussion I saw online about how to replace people's browsers with Firefox without them noticing 20:21:33 I'm sure we all love to maintain hygiene, but.... wtf :P 20:21:34 someone said that they left both an IE and a Firefox icon on the desktop, /both/ opening Firefox 20:21:35 Anyway, good to know that is a logo and not a psychotic delusion on my part. 20:21:37 that seems a bit overkill 20:21:38 Vorpal, it marks me taking daily showers again 20:21:57 err yes and? That is quite common 20:22:29 "It is Fedora's policy to close all 20:22:30 bug reports from releases that are no longer maintained." 20:22:49 As opposed to weekly showers 20:22:56 And as opposed to having to go elsewhere 20:22:58 stupid unmaintained bug reports 20:23:14 elliott, I guess they think "well, people will mark them as affecting other releases as well, or reopen them in worst case" 20:23:28 Vorpal: it's still stupid :p 20:23:38 relevant: http://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html 20:23:47 elliott, well, what are they going to do? Delete them? leave them open forever? 20:23:55 Vorpal: leave them open until they're fixed 20:23:58 elliott, after all, if they don't affect the next release, the thing is fixed 20:24:03 from their point of view 20:24:03 then it should be marked as fixed 20:24:07 because it was fixed and marked in the bug tracker 20:24:10 not because "oh, i hope it just went away" 20:24:14 elliott, the real issue is that they are not doing rolling release 20:24:21 elliott, with rolling release it would be no issue 20:24:31 Vorpal: you can't rolling-release Gnome... 20:24:35 (it was Fedora, but still) 20:24:44 Close them automatically after N time. 20:24:46 That's what Mozilla does. 20:24:51 elliott, .... I meant for distro 20:24:56 please read what I said 20:25:02 i did. 20:25:07 i was saying that it only applies in one very specific case 20:25:12 elliott, I never claimed it would be relevant for a non-distro 20:25:24 elliott, though I know of rolling release non-distros 20:25:44 elliott, mrd6 seems to be that way for example 20:25:55 rolling release software is generally an excuse not to bother to mark certain commits as stable :) 20:26:03 hah :P 20:26:04 "Trunk? Sure, it'll probably work!" 20:26:07 "I hope!" 20:26:12 "Please let it work. Please let it work. Please let it work." 20:26:18 -- "Um, it doesn't work." 20:26:25 It works for everything *I* care about. 20:26:25 "Well, you DID use the development tree release!" 20:26:34 "What can you expect from a git repository?! Silly boy." 20:26:57 Vorpal: anyway, bogons does multicast :D 20:26:58 (Hey why wouldn't it / of course it doesn't) work 20:27:06 Vorpal: (ipv6 of course) 20:27:10 elliott, m6bone? 20:27:24 Vorpal: i... don't know what that is :< 20:27:55 elliott, well, if it isn't hooked up to m6bone it isn't very useful as the situation currently stands. Google it. 20:28:06 elliott, wp has a useful article on it 20:28:07 where's the list of nodes? 20:28:19 elliott, nodes of? 20:28:23 Vorpal: wikipedia has no "m6bone" article 20:28:47 i assume it's like the MBONE for IPv6 or something 20:28:54 ah 20:29:07 A November 1994 Rolling Stones concert at the Cotton Bowl in Dallas with 50,000 fans was the "first major cyberspace multicast concert." Mick Jagger opened the concert by saying, "I wanna say a special welcome to everyone that's, uh, climbed into the Internet tonight and, uh, has got into the M-bone. And I hope it doesn't all collapse." 20:29:15 ^ I APPROVE OF THIS SO HARD 20:29:25 catseye, indeed. And unlike mbone it is still active, though currently the activity is shrinking 20:29:35 Vorpal: link me to the WP article 20:29:38 I can find none 20:30:00 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:30:01 elliott, well maybe it was mentioned in some other article there 20:30:09 Vorpal: anyway, is there a list of who's connected to ti? 20:30:29 i see it not 20:30:31 bah, the top two services I can get from bogons: 20:30:39 elliott, not sure. sixxs has a list of POPs and lists which ones are connected 20:30:43 8 Mb/s download, 448 Kb/s upload, £60 setup, £35/mo 20:30:49 8 Mb/s download, 832 Kb/s upload, £60 setup, £45/mo 20:30:56 elliott, mine is not directly connected there 20:31:02 £35 = 370 kr 20:31:06 closer to 371 20:31:07 it does limited multicast though 20:31:12 £45 = 476 kr 20:31:16 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6bone 20:31:27 no "M" 20:31:32 Vorpal: i can either get shitty, fast, reasonably-priced broadband or excellent, sort-of-midway-fast, expensive as hell broadband! 20:31:36 elliott, the latter matches my speed pretty well. The price is about twice of mine 20:31:37 YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY 20:31:47 Vorpal: yeah but bogons are like 20:31:49 hideously competent 20:31:51 and they have like 20:31:56 10 home customers 20:31:59 probably more business customers 20:32:01 but, very small company 20:32:05 elliott, right. 20:32:14 Vorpal: one of the... two staff members is the one who originally registered bbc.co.uk :) 20:32:17 when working at the BBC 20:32:24 well okay 20:32:53 see, cool people! 20:33:10 Vorpal: ok so where's the list of connected people >_> 20:33:19 elliott, it wasn't creating by the academics thinking "oh dear, we seem to have more commercial customers than universities hooked up now, maybe we should split that off or something" 20:33:22 erm 20:33:25 6bone is being phased out 20:33:26 which was how the ISP I use came to be 20:33:32 back in 1992 or 1993 iirc 20:33:43 elliott, m6bone != 6bone 20:33:44 duh 20:33:45 When it became obvious that the availability of IPv6 top level production prefixes was assured, and that commercial and private IPv6 networks were being operated outside the 6bone using these prefixes, a plan was developed to phase out the 6bone (see RFC 3701). 20:33:46 The phaseout plan called for a halt to new 6bone prefix allocations on 1 January 2004 and the complete cessation of 6bone operation and routing over the 6bone testing prefixes on 6 June 2006. Addresses within the 6bone testing prefix have now reverted to the IANA, and should no longer be used. 20:33:47 Vorpal: well 20:33:49 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:33:50 catseye linked it 20:33:54 and i trust catseye with my HEART 20:33:55 and soul 20:34:00 elliott, well. They are different 20:34:01 there doesn't seem to BE an "m6bone" 20:34:03 and splanch 20:34:10 Vorpal: so *give me the list of things on m6bone*! 20:34:11 i cannot find it 20:34:15 http://www.m6bone.net/ 20:34:17 catseye: http://www.m6bone.net/ 20:34:19 catseye: most useless site ever 20:34:21 Vorpal: yes, and? 20:34:33 elliott, googling m6bone: "About 203,000 results (0.07 seconds) " 20:34:38 ...so?! 20:34:41 i did a fucking search 20:34:48 i can't find a fucking list of ISPs that are fucking conn fucking ected! 20:34:50 simple as that! 20:34:51 elliott, http://www.sixxs.net/faq/connectivity/?faq=multicast 20:35:00 An FAQ entry! Wonderful 20:35:05 elliott, well I don't know of such a list eithyer 20:35:06 either* 20:35:10 Vorpal: ...then how the hell am i meant to know? 20:35:23 elliott, I asked because I presumed they would list it 20:35:44 "Optional included extras: [...] Multicast and/or IPv6 routing over ADSL" 20:35:52 well *shrug* 20:36:08 adanaxis takes forever to compile btw 20:36:12 "Optional routed IP (/29 or /30 from us)" only £2/month, awesome 20:36:13 oh, says g++ in the output 20:36:15 that explains it 20:36:18 can a program that outputs (a program that outputs X) be smaller than the smallest program that outputs X? 20:36:33 oerjan, sounds like compression 20:36:47 oerjan: i realise that if you have eval 20:36:48 Oh wow didn't notice the time 20:36:51 Shower time :D 20:36:52 then e.g. 20:36:59 eval(that program) could be shorter than the others 20:37:01 but assume you don't have eval 20:37:05 i don't know but it reminds me and may be related to a result that there are theorems P such that provable(P) has a much shorter proof than P 20:37:07 also assume that the language doesn't cheat 20:37:13 like HQ9+F 20:37:16 where F outputs "QQQQQQQQQ" 20:37:57 elliott, would it be correct to state that if (size of xz + size output of "xz -9 -e otherprogram") < size of otherprogram 20:38:01 also even if you don't have eval you should be able to implement it with little overhead 20:38:03 then your condition is true? 20:38:11 err 20:38:13 your question 20:38:15 Vorpal: well. uh. 20:38:25 Vorpal: let's consider xz and xz^-1 as two functions instead 20:38:42 and Q == the implementation of xz and xz^-1 20:38:48 elliott, if you are picky add a shell script wrapper that includes an embedded xz binary and the compressed data 20:39:07 so you're saying basically that 20:39:12 |Q| + |xz(P_0)| + C <= P_1 20:39:19 where C is the constant overhead of actually calling xz^-1 on it 20:39:24 like, only a few bits 20:39:29 yeah 20:39:32 erm 20:39:34 a few bytes rather, but yeah 20:39:34 |Q| + |xz(P_0)| + C <= P_0 20:39:35 of course 20:39:39 |Q| + |xz(P_0)| + C <= |P_0| 20:39:40 that is 20:39:41 then yes, that would meet the condition 20:40:02 elliott, for a sufficiently large P_0 it should be true 20:40:04 Vorpal: but remember 20:40:10 P_0 has to be the smallest possible program that outputs whatever it does 20:40:14 so basically 20:40:24 Vorpal: you're talking about an output of many, many random bits 20:40:24 elliott, err, well, then that is trickier 20:40:26 and guess what xz can't compress? 20:40:27 random bits! 20:40:30 so no, that doesn't work 20:40:45 (P_0 has to be basically an output statement for its output to be random like that) 20:40:45 uh 20:40:46 basically 20:40:47 elliott, random, hm. is pseudorandom okay? 20:40:54 Vorpal: not for kolgomorov complexity 20:40:54 wait, wouldn't help much 20:41:04 i'm deferring to oerjan who can explain things much less confuzzledly than me :D 20:41:24 elliott, hm.... define "smallest possible program" 20:41:34 Vorpal: um, do you know what kolgomorov complexity is? 20:41:49 smallest program that outputs X is the program P such that |P| <= |Q| for all Q that output X 20:41:51 then K(X) = |P| 20:41:58 where K is kolgomorov complexity 20:42:14 completely random data can't be generated algorithmically, so basically we have a print statement followed by all the data 20:42:24 so K(X) = |X| + C if X is truly random 20:42:27 C just being the "print" overhead 20:42:35 elliott, well, it could be smaller on a different system. 20:42:37 but e.g. 20:42:41 Vorpal: what? 20:42:43 you mean like 20:42:45 for some fixed language L 20:42:46 on a different computer? 20:42:49 elliott, ppc vs x86 20:42:50 you are *such* a fucking software engineer 20:42:51 is what I mean 20:42:52 i hate you to death 20:42:52 for some fixed language L 20:42:54 please 20:42:56 what catseye said 20:42:59 mhm 20:43:08 -!- wareya has joined. 20:43:11 lambda calculus represented as binary doesn't change :p 20:43:19 elliott, true 20:43:34 or e.g. specific UTM 20:43:35 Vorpal: any particular string can be compressed smaller on a particular system, but _most_ strings cannot be compressed (in the kolmogorov or most other senses) 20:43:58 kolgomorov complexity is really deep and beautiful imo 20:44:06 i mean 20:44:10 it's like half of information theory right there :P 20:44:25 also for two different TC systems there's always a bound to how different their kolmogorov complexities can be - just simulate each in the other 20:44:27 * pikhq has redone his x264 encoding options 20:44:30 elliott, anyway what about this: We have a architecture where the minimal way to output "foo" is 14 instructions long. There is another, single, instruction however, which outputs this sequence of 14 instruction 20:44:39 -x264encopts preset=slow 20:44:41 Vorpal: i already said HQ9+F is not allowed 20:44:42 That's it. 20:44:45 where F outputs a bunch of Qs 20:44:52 Vorpal: we can think of different systems 20:44:56 but i mean something like the lambda calculus 20:45:00 elliott, well, it could have lots and lots of more instructions apart of those. 20:45:03 i don't care 20:45:06 Thank you, x264, for adding presets since I last did the configuration for all that. 20:45:11 devising a system which allows this can be interesting, but only if it emerges from the definition 20:45:14 rather than being a cheat 20:45:24 and really i'm asking about things like the binary lambda calculus / ski / turing machine / etc. 20:45:34 elliott, so what you are asking is really "are there any existing languages that allow this"? 20:45:43 Vorpal: no. 20:45:52 i'm asking an open-ended question to explore in interesting ways. 20:45:58 if this concept is foreign to you i apologise. 20:46:18 a more interesting question could be if _all_ TC languages allow this 20:46:35 oerjan: so, your intuition is that K(P) < K(X) where P outputs X probably exists in lambda calculus or whatever? 20:46:38 i'm not so sure 20:46:41 but it might be, I suppose 20:46:46 elliott, it isn't very well defined though, and I'm coming up with solutions based on what I know about the question, and you keep adding restrictions (that I didn't see mentioned above) 20:46:55 although it feels like getting that result would be so dangerously close to K(X) < K(X) :) 20:47:00 in fact 20:47:02 it basically is 20:47:06 elliott, if you think I'm going to go back and log read the original convo you are wrong 20:47:09 -!- yiyus_ has joined. 20:47:11 oerjan: add one new element to the language, just eval 20:47:18 it seems to have been ages ago 20:47:26 oerjan: then, if the program that outputs P is more than one instruction shorter th-- 20:47:26 no wait 20:47:30 that just changes it for that language 20:47:48 well my intuition is that if there is some generic construction in some TC language with arbitrarily large difference in the sizes, then it can probably be converted to any other TC system 20:47:48 Vorpal: i'm not adding restrictions, i'm rejecting your uninteresting answers 20:47:55 elliott, huh, adanaxis uses *.tiff in the data files it installs 20:48:05 oerjan: well i'm finding it hard to think of e.g. a python example, as a practical matter 20:48:12 oerjan: but then, you can't really measure python in bytes 20:48:15 elliott, define "interesting" 20:48:23 Vorpal: everything that is not you. 20:48:26 i think it's similar to compressing a compressed file. 20:48:32 catseye: no, not quite 20:48:34 elliott, so anything I say you will just reject? 20:48:37 how nasty 20:48:40 catseye: you don't have to output the smallest program to output X 20:48:42 not quite similar? 20:48:44 you just have to output any old program to output X 20:48:53 as long as the program that outputs that any old program is shorter than the *shortest* program that outputs X 20:48:54 that is 20:49:00 elliott: or wait, the fact that you can embed an interpreter for the language itself probably means you _cannot_ have arbitrarily large size difference 20:49:03 K(P) < K(X) where P outputs X 20:49:12 but the program that provides the length for K(X) does not need to be P 20:49:17 it can be a vastly-shorter-than-P Q 20:49:30 Vorpal: maybe if you start being interesting like catseye and oerjan and not proposing HQ9+F i will listen 20:49:35 oerjan: indeed 20:49:47 oerjan: establishing upper bounds sounds fun (although very difficult) 20:50:13 elliott, I thought the question was "is this possible". And it seems like a valid way to note "yes possible, but perhaps not usefully so" 20:50:18 oerjan: of course, if you have an eval instruction, then however much overhead just evalling is, is an upper bound 20:50:34 Vorpal: it's very obviously possible... 20:50:59 mhm 20:51:00 oerjan: hmm, consider a language that, when a program results in a string that's a valid program, evals it, and repeats until it's an invalid program 20:51:09 oerjan: we can't do this in that language, since the program it outputs would eval itself, etc. 20:51:13 oerjan: and uh 20:51:19 oerjan: i guess we could encode it actually 20:51:19 goedel-style 20:51:23 elliott: that's an ingenious way to make a quineless language 20:51:31 although ofc it isn't then capable of arbitrary output 20:51:46 oerjan: but otoh, i very much doubt that ANY program outputting a goedel-or-similar-encoded program can be shorter than the *shortest program* program outputting the same thing in the native format 20:52:11 oerjan: so i *think* those languages might be counterexamples 20:52:12 maybe 20:52:19 oerjan: wait 20:52:28 oerjan: *every* x in K(x) would have to be something-encoded in this language 20:52:39 since otherwise K would be ... partial, and that makes no sense at all 20:52:44 oerjan: so no, disregard that, not a counterexample 20:52:52 Vorpal: maybe if you start being interesting like catseye and oerjan and not proposing HQ9+F i will listen <-- hey _I_ added X to it, not that different :D 20:53:07 -!- wareya_ has joined. 20:53:12 oerjan: well that was in your regrettably-misspent youth. 20:53:36 fuck, adanaxis, it refuses windowed mode and also refuses native resolution 20:53:42 ais523, any idea how to fix that? 20:53:50 Vorpal: it does the same to me, I just play in 1024x768 20:53:51 can it be made to do windowed mode in some hidden way 20:53:53 the screen can manage it 20:54:02 ais523, I have 1680x1050 20:54:06 windowed works for me 20:54:09 it's a separate resolution 20:54:12 in the options 20:54:12 That was unpleasant 20:54:12 my guess is, if there is a shorter "generator generator" than a generator, it's only shorter by a "+ C" if you know what I mean 20:54:14 for all windowed resolutions 20:54:16 elliott, oh *looks* 20:54:16 Sgeo: what? 20:54:17 The water failed to stay hot 20:54:26 catseye: but that's the thing 20:54:28 like a rounding error 20:54:39 catseye: we could have a 3-byte program that outputs "print X; print X; print X" a billion times 20:54:44 catseye: and a 4-byte program that outputs X a billion times 20:54:51 the 3-byte program doesn't output the 4-byte program 20:54:51 -!- wareya_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:54:52 elliott, 800x600 windowed? yeargh that is small 20:54:54 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:54:56 but it outputs a program that *outputs the same thing* 20:55:01 which is what's important 20:55:06 elliott: i understand that. 20:55:09 right 20:55:27 catseye: it seems like the kind of thing that you can prove and then when you try and derive an example it turns out to be five gigabytes big :) 20:55:36 elliott, it doesn't go above the tiny 800x600 for windowed mode! 20:55:40 catseye: yes, as i said the difference cannot be more than the length of wrapping the generator in a self-interpreter implementation 20:55:41 When was the last time I disagreed with elliott about something? 20:55:46 i think that this would only occur at quite long bit lengths. but then the generator-generator would have to be bigger... 20:55:47 bleh 20:55:58 Sgeo: are you doing so now? 20:56:02 No 20:56:02 elliott, hm is there any tutorial? 20:56:07 I don't even know the topi 20:56:09 topic 20:56:10 Vorpal: for kolgomorov complexity? 20:56:15 elliott, for adanaxis 20:56:18 oerjan: right, i basically came to that conclusion too... you can write any program of any length you want onto your tape then interpret that. 20:56:19 Vorpal: first mission 20:56:20 i haven't played 20:56:22 elliott, ah 20:56:29 Sgeo: K(x) = length of shortest program that outputs x, "kolgomorov complexity" 20:56:38 Sgeo: in some fixed language L 20:57:18 I thought the maximal complexity is when x is random 20:57:26 oerjan: this is terribly interesting. 20:57:29 Sgeo: well. basically. 20:57:34 K(x) = |x| + C when x is random 20:57:41 the C is the length of "print this string" 20:57:44 obviously 20:57:51 well 20:57:55 that's for almost all random strings 20:58:03 of course your language could cheat or whatever for a few of them 20:58:05 but you get the idea 20:58:08 -!- wareya has joined. 20:58:09 almost all strings are incompressible 20:58:15 is it just me or is debian.org down? 20:58:35 elliott: It's not down. 20:58:49 Oops! Google Chrome could not find www.debian.org 20:58:49 Try reloading: www. debian. org 20:58:51 http sure is 20:58:52 elliott, oerjan : in a sense, "print" is just the simplest interpreter there is :) 20:59:05 catseye: \x.x 20:59:08 catseye: interpreter for the cat language 20:59:12 What is quantum disco? 20:59:21 K(x) = |x| for all x in the cat language! 20:59:33 and every program is a quine! 21:00:14 |x|? 21:00:22 What does it mean for an output to be negative? 21:00:23 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blum%27s_speedup_theorem seems analogous 21:00:31 Sgeo: |x| = cardinality/length of x 21:00:36 cardinality for sets 21:00:36 ais523, wait, adanaxis only has x,y,z for aiming? That is just 3D, not 4D? 21:00:38 Oh 21:00:42 x is a string 21:00:47 or, well, it can be anything abstract really but 21:00:51 a string is the concrete one to go for 21:00:54 Oh, right, K(x) is a number 21:00:56 Vorpal: they're directoin angles 21:00:56 zzo38: never heard of it 21:00:58 * Sgeo facepalms self 21:00:59 Vorpal: right click mouse button and move left/right 21:01:01 or something 21:01:02 ais523, oh right. 21:01:02 Sgeo: indeed 21:01:09 Sgeo: a natural number, to be precise 21:01:09 ais523, how do you move yourself though? 21:01:11 if you're aiming at something in 2D, you only need one angle to describe the direction 21:01:18 Vorpal: w and s go forwards and backwards 21:01:21 Does 0 count as natural? 21:01:29 ... i had not considered facepalming someone *else* before now. 21:01:31 Sgeo: yes 21:01:40 sounds like some kind of monk martial arts move 21:01:42 * elliott puts his palm on catseye's face 21:01:45 THIS IS OUR BOND 21:01:47 Sgeo: facepalm implies self, I think 21:01:48 ais523, no thrust in other axises? 21:01:49 a and d strafe horizontally; q and e can be used for the rotations that you can't easily do with the mouse 21:01:53 ah 21:01:58 catseye: surprise, we're now in a civil union according to the laws of all civilised countries! 21:02:03 the thrust is always /forwards/, except with a and d 21:02:05 MBLEH 21:02:06 CIVIL UNIONS: DESTROYING MARRIAGE? 21:02:08 ais523, in which dimensions do q and e move 21:02:37 I was facepalming *about* myself, as opposed to at someone else's stupidity 21:02:39 to move in a particular direction, use the mouse to face in that direction (moving it for two direction axes, right-drag for third), then press w 21:02:45 ais523, what about strafing vertically or ? 21:02:47 http://www.demolinux.org/en/ecrans/version-debian-gnome.jpg 21:02:52 and q and e rotate the current fourth dimension onto the forwards direction, IIRC 21:02:52 blast from the past 21:02:53 gotta be honest though 21:02:56 i like that colour scheme 21:03:02 hmm, no, not that, that's what rightdrag does 21:03:09 Vorpal: rotate, then strafe 21:03:18 ais523, I see 21:03:27 (btw, the usual fourth dimension terminology is ana/kata for the extra dimension) 21:03:54 Gregor: Have you ever used DEBIAN STABLE as your main desktop OS? 21:04:02 Gregor: Being a Debian zealot surely you have. 21:04:04 It's STABLE! 21:04:06 ana/kata? I have heard of it before..... OK, I suppose we can use that, then. 21:04:06 Nope. 21:04:07 ais523, why those words, I thought kata was related to material arts? 21:04:11 Debian Stable == Debian Obsolete 21:04:17 I've used stable for servers. 21:04:21 Gregor: But I thought Debian is RIGHT. 21:04:24 Vorpal: they're Greek prefixes, IIRC 21:04:30 ah, different kata then 21:04:36 elliott: It is, but you don't need that kind of stability for a desktop. 21:04:49 elliott: It's right because it gives you such awesome choices ;) 21:04:54 Gregor: But unstable has no obviously-linked installer! 21:04:59 Do you support SUBVERTING the design of debian.org? 21:05:01 Testing, man! 21:05:02 TESTING! 21:05:04 elliott: install stable, upgrade? 21:05:05 Saying that its choices are not RIGHT? 21:05:09 Gregor: I meant testing. 21:05:09 Sorry. 21:05:14 also, does anyone actually use Debian Testing for anything but testing Debian? 21:05:20 it's sort-of like Unstable, except bugs persist longer 21:05:20 ais523: yes 21:05:25 ais523: every Debian user users testing 21:05:27 ais523, the "read game info" link from the main menu is weird, it opens the pdf in firefox.... 21:05:27 *uses 21:05:29 pretty much 21:05:34 actually: 21:05:39 sh: kfmclient: command not found 21:05:39 sh: galeon: command not found 21:05:39 sh: opera: command not found 21:05:39 sh: mozilla: command not found 21:05:40 and so on 21:05:41 ais523: Debian Testing = the actual stable Debian 21:05:41 ais523: stable is a dinosaur and sid breaks things 21:05:45 until it tries firefox 21:05:46 hmm, the advice I heard from a Debian user friend of mine was "always use stable or unstable" 21:05:55 ais523: Your Debian user friend is a retard. 21:05:57 ais523: bear in mind that most debian users are idiots. >:) 21:06:00 it tries konqueror, epiphany and netscape as well before firefox 21:06:02 Why? 21:06:04 Because they use Debian! 21:06:13 [mauled by Gregor] 21:06:15 * Gregor <3 Debian 21:06:35 Gregor: So is your marriage triangle going to be called Grebian? 21:06:39 "Weapon upgrades and ammunition are found by collecting the boxes shown below." oh god no. Not one of those games. 21:06:44 (THAT JOKE IS INSENSITIVE, IAN AND DEB BROKE UP) 21:06:58 (Lesson: Never mention your spouse. EVER) 21:07:02 I prefer games with a complex planet-based economy for buying upgrades, rather than random boxes in the void 21:07:11 they should've hyphenated the name or something to commemorate that 21:07:13 Vorpal, Worms uses boxes... 21:07:17 Sorry it wasn't complex enough for you. 21:07:19 Sgeo: Worms isn't set in space. 21:07:25 Well, arguably it is. 21:07:28 But... no. 21:07:36 and even if it was 21:07:43 how would it change my statement about what I prefer 21:07:44 olsner: Deb minus Ian 21:07:47 Sgeo, ? 21:07:56 Sgeo: Vorpal: both of you shut up :P 21:08:06 welcome to my random-box-based economy 21:08:20 or -deb+ian? depending on who left who, and which one of them (if any) sticks to the debian project 21:08:31 [[Should I use sid on my server? 21:08:31 Are you insane? No!]] 21:08:35 olsner: deb never had anything to do with debian 21:08:45 ian just named his distro debian because he was being a ~lovefag~ 21:08:53 And neither of them stuck to the project :P 21:09:00 Gregor: ian still uses debian i think 21:09:04 and still posts stuff about it on his blog 21:09:20 "He wrote the Debian Manifesto in 1993 while a student at Purdue University" 21:09:23 So THAT'S why Gregor likes it! 21:09:34 elliott: oh, haha 21:09:35 [[On joining Sun, he led Project Indiana, which he described as "taking the lesson that Linux has brought to the operating system and providing that for Solaris", making a full OpenSolaris distribution with GNOME and userland tools from GNU plus a network-based package management system.]] 21:09:36 heh 21:09:52 olsner: they divorced in 2007 21:09:59 probably the same day he joined sun to start working on an opensolaris distro >:) 21:10:07 "This time, I'll just call it Ian!" 21:10:15 "Ian Murdock’s Weblog 21:10:16 on emerging platforms and the power of aggregation and integration" 21:10:16 elliott: Ian joined sun and went all OpenSolaris-happy. I don't know what happened after he quit when Oracle bought Sun. 21:10:17 dear god. 21:10:26 Gregor: He blogs about emerging platforms and the power of aggregation and integration. 21:10:41 What's Debra doing? 21:10:54 Being non-CS-related. 21:10:54 Sgeo: weeping 21:10:58 aggregation and integration, together at last 21:11:14 catseye: Aggregation + Integration = Aggregration! 21:11:16 catseye: I've been so tired of my unintegrated aggregate too! 21:11:22 wait 21:11:23 it has no r 21:11:31 oh wait 21:11:33 what i said was right 21:11:38 Integration + Aggregation = Integation! 21:11:44 Aggregration and Integation. 21:12:06 Aggregation - Integration = Diffregation 21:12:09 integraggregation 21:12:59 Gregor: Seriously, debian.org HTTP is down. 21:13:20 Gregor: lol freeze has been frozen 21:13:22 enjoy your cryogenic OS 21:13:26 No it's not? 21:13:39 I'm fully able to access www.debian.org 21:13:41 elliott: Use FTP then? 21:13:48 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 21:13:49 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Client Quit). 21:13:55 elliott, try google translate or any other proxy 21:13:56 Do they have FTP? 21:14:03 zzo38: Website over FTP? 21:14:05 You are crazy. 21:14:37 I had thoughts about that when I was a kid. Also about websites over email 21:14:41 elliott: No, I mean download the files you need over FTP, if they have FTP and if HTTP doesn't work. 21:14:43 And websites in registry 21:14:50 I typed http://debian.org/ into Google's Arabic -> English translator. 21:14:56 It decided to transliterate it to حطب://إبن.عرج/. 21:14:58 Translation: 21:15:00 Firewood: / / son. Claudication / 21:15:08 firewood://son.claudication/ 21:17:57 Now you have to use the FIREWOOD protocol if the other protocols do not work 21:18:40 (And if it doesn't exist, you would have to invent that protocol first before it can be used.) 21:18:47 zzo38: You have to invent it. 21:18:50 It is your duty. 21:18:57 elliott: OK. Maybe I will. 21:19:05 I think "son.claudication" should be some sort of representation of a path, where the words are the result of hashing some sort of data. 21:19:19 Like, that could mean "org.debian", where debian is some integer allocated to Debian and org is the standard namespace. 21:19:47 oerjan: heh, r.e.s. has a lot of messages on [[Talk:Kolgomorov complexity]] on Wikipedia 21:21:54 ais523, I just realised that with my joystick I have enough analogue axises to make this quite a lot easier 21:22:06 ais523, I mean, it got like 10 of them 21:22:09 heh 21:22:26 ais523, sure, some are not very usable for this purpose (think hat switch or such) 21:22:31 but enough are 21:22:43 why, you could fly three planes at once with such a control! 21:22:47 and if that isn't enough I have 3 more in my rudder pedals 21:22:56 catseye, or one harrier 21:23:32 catseye, it is nice being able to control the thrust vectoring easily when you need it to land safely :P 21:24:38 anyway, you need 4 for a basic plane (pitch, yaw, roll, thrust), so that doesn't give me 3 of then. 21:25:09 Vorpal: umea (probably an o on top of one of those letters) -- how crazy/stupid are they? 21:25:18 Umeaboy in #debian is being stupid right now, I want to know the commonality of this 21:25:28 and that assumes a jet engine anyway, on many (but not all) propeller planes you had mixture and feathering controls as well 21:25:54 elliott, Umeå was the -50°C place I mentioned a few days ago. 21:26:01 Vorpal: ah. 21:26:04 his brain must have frozen then 21:26:15 elliott, though, it is quite nice up there in the early summer 21:26:38 elliott, anyway, it is not -50 every year, it is too close to the coast for that. 21:26:58 so it gets a.... ehrm. "mild" climate. Of course that is in relative terms 21:27:05 Vorpal: can you give me the ip of cdimage.debian.org? 21:27:09 my dns for debian.org is bust or something 21:27:20 $ host cdimage.debian.org 21:27:20 cdimage.debian.org is an alias for ftp.acc.umu.se. 21:27:24 elliott, :D 21:27:32 Vorpal: hmm. so they should have it in the same place. 21:27:40 ah inded 21:27:41 elliott, that might be a geodns though 21:27:41 *indeed 21:27:44 I don't know 21:27:44 they have a /cdimage 21:27:48 Vorpal: i was looking at that mirror anyway 21:27:56 just thought that daily builds were only on the main server since i couldn't find it 21:27:59 elliott, how comes, it can't be local to you 21:28:09 Vorpal: in the UK, swedish servers get very good times 21:28:11 ais523 uses them too 21:28:18 100% CPU usage. HOORAY. 21:28:23 elliott, huh, better than UK mirrors? 21:28:24 Vorpal: probably a combination of not too close to us -- so our paths to them aren't clogged with other people 21:28:26 Vorpal: yep 21:28:32 Vorpal: and the fact that you guys have fast interwebs 21:28:56 elliott, well, you know mirrors.kernel.org can easily max out my connection. They use geodns and they have one in Sweden 21:29:05 I use that as my arch linux package mirror 21:29:07 840 KiB/s now 21:29:07 awesome speed 21:29:08 from that server 21:29:23 Vorpal: yeah i use the se.mirrors.kernel.org or whatever as my package mirror on ubuntu 21:29:24 better than those that are listed as Swedish mirrors in the mirror listing 21:29:39 mirrorservice.org in the uk also gets good speeds but the swedish ones are more consistently good 21:30:18 elliott, hey, don't steal our bw. then we will be just as slow as everyone else. After all, it is only right and proper that a country with a fraction of the population of UK and a larger surface area gets a lot more bw :P 21:30:24 per person that is 21:30:52 not sure how the numbers look like when you look at the total bw 21:31:06 err, Swedishism 21:31:24 Vorpal: "how the numbers look" is idiomatic 21:31:26 without the like 21:31:28 in english 21:32:10 elliott, sounds like it should be "what the numbers look like" in English? 21:32:19 anyone know google's dns servers? >_> 21:32:24 Vorpal: that is also valid 21:32:25 not me 21:33:59 hmm, how ... look, what ... look like, same difference in swedish really 21:34:30 ah 21:34:46 four eights and two eights two fours 21:34:47 (google dns) 21:35:47 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Connection reset by peer review). 21:35:56 -!- elliott has joined. 21:36:17 Umeaboy, what advantage would as GUI installation have for, say, a server? or a low-resource machine? 21:36:18 Bushmills: A newly started company that wants to make every computer-installation by themselves their own way. 21:36:23 Vorpal: swedish people are retarded. 21:37:15 damn, looks like denmark has twice the bandwidth per capita of sweden 21:37:35 olsner: wolfram alpha eh? 21:38:01 hmm, these numbers were from 2004 21:38:17 DAAAMNN YOUUU DENNMAAAARRRKKK 21:38:27 * elliott installs Debian testing in a VM 21:39:00 Vorpal: lol, a guy in #debian already has him on ignore from mandriva channels 21:39:05 (he said he uses mandriva too) 21:39:16 Umea: Sweden's village of idiots! 21:39:31 (They spell it Umea there because they can't type the o thing.) 21:39:40 debian-installer is nice 21:39:44 for the amount of stuff it can do 21:40:17 elliott, err, end of Swedish upper qwerty row: uiopå 21:40:28 that joke fails so horribly thus 21:40:30 Vorpal: yes, they're retarded, you see 21:40:37 they don't know what that key does 21:40:46 in school they're taught the alphabet 21:40:51 a, e, m, u 21:40:56 conveniently, that's Umea backwards 21:40:57 ... 21:40:59 which is how it got its name 21:41:05 whatever 21:41:10 * Sgeo has a low resource machine that he wants a GUI install on 21:41:12 you are just too far fetched to be funny 21:41:21 Vorpal: and you quote Monty Python? 21:41:28 Let me clarify: My previous statement is NOT in support of Umeaboy 21:41:40 Sgeo: you can't use a text installer? seriously? 21:41:57 ..Oh, _GUI Installer_ is the question? 21:42:00 yes 21:42:07 I thought it was "To install X and related stuff, or not" 21:42:08 and debian has one 21:42:13 he just downloaded mini.iso 21:42:15 which is the tiny tiny ISO 21:42:19 which of course only has a textual install. 21:42:25 the debian graphical installer is very nice. 21:43:02 Can I set up Debian to be suitable for ancient laptop? I guess I'd be choosing packages myself 21:43:32 debian will run on just about anything. 21:43:42 ais523, I found adanaxis near impossible and a bit too fast paced to play 21:43:45 you could be adventurous and try ~NETBSD~ 21:43:47 unlike catseye 21:43:53 ais523, even on easy the AI is very very good 21:44:00 I want it to be easy to use 21:44:13 Sgeo: and netbsd isn't? 21:44:23 I have not the foggiest idea 21:44:30 Is NetBSD even supported? 21:44:31 Vorpal: get used to strafing 21:44:33 Sgeo: what? 21:44:38 it powers a good portion of the internet. 21:44:38 the AI is good, but its weapons aren't particularly good 21:44:43 a good good portion. 21:44:45 Sgeo: Of course it runs NetBSD. 21:44:47 so if you spend a lot of time dodging, they mostly can't hit you 21:44:50 and many embedded devices 21:44:51 and uh 21:44:51 put X and Gnome Desktop and whatever on it and there you go, easy to use 21:44:52 also, your weapons have a /very/ long range 21:44:56 Sgeo: it's more supported than Linux. 21:44:56 ais523, hm, how do you strafe in the 4th dimension? 21:44:58 applies to any OS 21:44:58 Oh wow 21:45:02 i'll even be so bold to say 21:45:07 ais523, is it q + a and d then? 21:45:08 catseye: even windows? :P 21:45:09 Vorpal: who cares; you can dodge in any direction you like 21:45:16 elliott: sure, what the hell 21:45:19 just use a and d to strafe, and the mouse to change which directions those mean 21:45:27 ais523, yes that isn't the issue as much as the AI dodging me 21:45:39 your weapons are homing; as long as you're locked on when you fire, you won't be dodged 21:45:40 -!- Sgeo has left (?). 21:45:45 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 21:45:47 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:45:47 you can tell you're locked on because the fire cursor changes 21:45:57 Now that I have a notebook, Ancient Laptop doesn 21:45:58 ais523, really? that pdf didn't agree on that completely 21:46:00 and potentially hit from a very long distance, as long as you aim well enough to get the lock 21:46:03 doesn't seem cute anymore 21:46:04 Vorpal: it depends on which weapon you use 21:46:11 the machine gun doesn't, for instance, so only really works at short range 21:46:14 but the basic weapon homes just fine 21:46:18 ais523, I don't know, I never seen any weapon boxes 21:46:30 ais523, so I haven't been able to pick any up 21:47:45 weapon boxes considered harmful 21:48:02 you don't get weapon boxes on the first few levels 21:48:07 shield and health boxes come up earlier 21:48:20 Is there a way to coerce Win98 to understand WiFi USB thingies? 21:48:23 ais523, I don't seem to have more than the green weapon? 21:48:26 whatever that is 21:48:26 That might be the best 21:48:51 Sgeo: uhh. 21:48:53 Sgeo, unlikely 21:48:57 only with a zombie raccoon 21:49:01 Vorpal: green just means you're misaiming it 21:49:13 the weapons are all white, but they go green if they go offcourse into the fourth dimension 21:49:16 ais523, no I meant in the lower right corner 21:49:16 or red the other way 21:49:18 quick, someone name my Debian VM 21:49:25 oh, that's always green no matter what weapon you're using 21:49:26 PSOX 21:49:31 oh 21:49:42 elliott: marzipan 21:49:50 catseye: ...why 21:49:58 192MB RAM 21:50:00 elliott: HungFarLo 21:50:01 WHY, he asks. 21:50:04 ais523, manual says I'm using the "Plasma Spitter" 21:50:07 by matching up the image 21:50:07 Intel Celeron 21:50:28 Gregor: I... what? 21:50:42 ais523, what about the blue mode? no chance to hit then? 21:50:47 Sgeo: that's not ancient! 21:50:49 on the cursors I mean 21:50:51 err 21:50:53 cross hair 21:50:54 whatever 21:51:21 Vorpal: blue and red are the lock-on mode 21:51:29 hold down the mouse button, and eventually you'll blow up what you're aiming at 21:51:30 Puppy Linux should work, right? 21:51:43 Sgeo: 4 will 21:51:52 catseye: maybe marzipan 21:51:58 Sgeo: just lay down newspaper first 21:52:09 i was thinking matryoshka for the nestedness 21:52:09 but 21:52:11 it's too long 21:52:13 and too russian 21:52:14 ais523, sometimes it doesn't want to fire even when blue or red 21:52:24 ais523, and no it isn't empty ammo 21:52:29 I checked that of course 21:52:38 ais523, mostly when the distance is long 21:52:40 it fires no matter what sort of crosshairs you have 21:52:49 but the bullets take a while to actually hit 21:52:57 it's not an instant-hit weapon like the laser 21:53:58 any suggestions other than marzipan? 21:54:14 ais523, I never heard the gun sound or saw any bullets leaving 21:54:22 ais523, surely that means "not fired" 21:54:30 hmm, perhaps 21:54:34 Dear Racket installer for Windows, you are the only remaining Windows installer that creates one of the "backdrop" windows to block out the rest of the screen. Congratulations on your anachronismus. Sincerely, C. 21:54:36 sure you aren't muddling ammo and health? 21:54:41 the ammo regenerates over time, health doesn't 21:54:56 ais523, pretty sure yes 21:55:25 in that case, I'm not sure 21:55:36 catseye: Are you seriously just going to use windows? 21:56:24 elliott: not just 21:57:23 ais523: name my box, please, just to save me from the marzipan 21:57:36 elliott: you want a hostname? 21:57:51 ais523: well, yes. for my Debian testing installation inside a VM 21:58:02 I don't see what's wrong with marzipan in that case... 21:58:11 ais523: forget I even said marzipan :P 21:58:16 or pick a random word from Wiktionary 21:58:24 it's not like it's important, for a hostname in a VM, which can be changed later 21:58:36 it's a pain to change though 21:58:37 but bah, fine 21:58:41 Wiktionary says "insinuates", btw 21:58:44 which is kind-of cool 21:58:55 ais523: a non-noun/adjective as a hostname? 21:58:56 are you crazy? 21:59:06 you could change the part of speech easily enough 21:59:10 "insinuation" or whatever 22:01:28 haha wow 22:01:29 Would NetBSD be easy to use for someone not used to using computers? 22:01:37 when you translate to latin in google translate 22:01:40 it sets it in marble 22:02:01 Sgeo: it'd be much like, say, Nexenta 22:02:03 Sgeo: maybe if you stuck gnome on it and taught them how to use it carefully with a strong understanding of HCI and how people interact with computers 22:02:18 * ais523 tries to give a useless question (that's missing far too much context to be useful) a useless answer 22:02:21 Sgeo: if you don't have such an understanding, then you can't help them. 22:02:33 and if you give them a computer you'll get 1,000,000,000,000 questions a day 22:03:59 and that's a million million questions! 22:04:21 It's the million dollar question. 22:05:12 a million dollars each? that's a lot of dollars 22:05:43 That's as much as four tens. 22:05:45 And that's terrible. 22:06:14 fizzie: save me from the marzipan 22:06:16 i need a hostname 22:07:07 the ammo regenerates over time, health doesn't <-- way to revert reality :D 22:07:21 oerjan: *invert? 22:07:31 really, HP are an abstraction 22:09:31 elliott: Call it debian_testing_in_a_vm. That's a really imaginative name. 22:09:31 elliott: call it Moxie 22:09:43 catseye: that's what Gregor probably calls his machines 22:09:55 * oerjan averts overtly answering 22:09:59 elliott: call it Falcon 22:10:27 elliott: Nope, my machines are of the form G[r]gor 22:10:32 elliott: call it Ipsekhiphtl 22:10:42 elliott: luftspeiling 22:11:09 Gregor: Seriously? 22:11:12 Grx86gor? 22:11:15 Grintelgor? 22:11:23 Or Grellgor? 22:11:30 machine-type is the CLASS of machine, not the ARCHITECTURE. 22:11:36 e.g. gdeskgor, glapgor 22:11:58 gpadgor 22:12:20 grtoastergor 22:12:36 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:12:54 Inexplicable things: Debian still defaults to ext3. 22:13:02 ext4, guys? Heard of it? 22:13:04 is ext4 properly tested yet? 22:13:08 ais523: very much so 22:13:11 ais523: it's the default in Ubuntu 22:13:14 and has been for a few releases 22:13:18 But it doesn't taste like butterflies. 22:13:23 yep, but Ubuntu changed the default to ext4 before it was working properly 22:13:30 which is, I suppose, rather typical for Ubuntu... 22:13:31 "On 15 January 2010, Google announced that it would upgrade its storage infrastructure from ext2 to ext4." 22:13:36 Yes, it's stable. 22:13:39 I wasn't sure if it had been fixed since 22:13:39 elliott: call it facepalm 22:13:41 Dear God is it stable if Google are switching to it. 22:13:46 catseye: too late, marzipan'd 22:13:46 yep, agreed 22:13:56 Yet even the testing installer defaults to ext4. 22:13:57 catseye: I like the concept of facepalming someone else, btw 22:13:57 *ext3. 22:14:06 * elliott switches to ext4 22:14:48 * elliott sets noatime... 22:15:02 elliott: not relatime? 22:15:10 ais523: no 22:15:14 atime is basically useless 22:15:19 no reason not to just disable it 22:15:34 IIRC, relatime disables setting it in all situations except the ones that people actually occasionally use 22:16:05 -!- augur has joined. 22:16:06 afaik nobody actually uses it even then 22:16:42 btrfs will be cool 22:16:42 http://i.imgur.com/5HoE6.png 22:16:45 atime is hilariously useless on Windows, btw 22:16:51 .....I think my code tends to look like that 22:16:55 because in order to display it, it access the file 22:16:56 oh, adanaxis really failed with multiple monitors 22:16:59 so it always shows the current time 22:17:10 Sgeo: it's very obvious that the lines about ugly code 22:17:12 are from someone else 22:17:22 the highlighted line, and the "(WTF IS READABILITY???)" line 22:17:32 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:17:34 the first because of the different capitalisation and obvious "i'm a virgin" insult 22:17:36 the second for the same reason 22:17:39 also, the code isn't actually that unreadable 22:17:43 -!- augur has joined. 22:17:55 Ok. Because I can imagine my code looking a bit like that 22:17:58 (although another image suggests it has an XSS in it that the developer acknowledged in a comment :) ) 22:18:36 hmm 22:18:41 Namesys is now officially "suspended" as a corporation 22:18:44 since this year 22:18:55 [[Their website has not been accessible since November 2007. Edward Shishkin, a Namesys employee, was quoted in a January 2008 CNET article as saying that "commercial activity of Namesys has stopped".[3]]] 22:19:26 brb 22:21:22 elliott, that's not an XSS 22:21:43 Well, I suppose SQL Injection could be used for that for some weird reason 22:21:57 Well, not ... /me forgot the exact definition of XSS 22:22:04 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:22:24 I know it involves putting malicious stuff in the page that someone else sees and seems to come from a trusted source 22:22:27 Stealing cookies etc. 22:22:40 But would such a thing inserted via SQL Injection count? 22:22:50 It wouldn't really be "cross-site" 22:22:54 -!- wareya has joined. 22:28:54 Sgeo: In addition to the (probable) sql injection bit, it also uses "state" directly as part of the generated page; you can stick a script in there, that's something that would be considered XSSy, I would think. 22:29:55 elliott, ais523: I did nm -C on adanaxis... and looked for the longest prototype. It is 1281 chars long! 22:30:48 that is some templately thing from libstdc++ 22:31:46 hm it isn't the longest one when you look at the mangled name for it 22:33:17 ah yeah, the standard types have shorthands in iirc 22:34:54 oh oh almost done 22:39:59 so, um. looks like i can't download the JDK without a user account, now? 22:40:20 or is it just that oracle mucked up the site? 22:40:27 perhaps even both 22:44:33 wonderful 22:44:48 bbl 22:44:50 -!- catseye has quit (Quit: leaving). 22:46:09 why not just use openjdk? 22:46:17 windows 22:46:28 he's on windows 22:46:42 Gregor: Explain this monstrosity: http://imgur.com/JWR4K.png 22:48:10 elliott: Somewhere I have a screenshot of OpenSolaris' install where it lets you select "no language" 22:48:26 Gregor: I actually have on fucking idea which option to select. 22:48:34 It's totally not my problem distro. I didn't even select the advanced install. 22:48:35 Neither do I :P 22:48:39 Do whatever you feel's best, man. 22:48:42 Gregor: what does that correspond to? C locale? 22:48:44 Remember, ignoring it is always the right option. 22:48:47 ais523: Yup. 22:48:57 Gregor: Yeah, but, I'm not convinced it's selected a UK layout. 22:49:08 it might be better expressed as "program default language (usually English)" 22:49:11 but that's a bit long 22:49:11 Then select a keymap from the full list. 22:49:32 ais523: This was what to set $LANG to by default, so that doesn't QUITE make sense. 22:49:47 set it, by default, to the default 22:49:51 that makes sense, doesn't it? 22:50:10 I just wouldn't even offer an option to use C as $LANG. 22:50:18 Is that *ever* a good idea for a system-wide setting? 22:50:36 elliott, is that the debian installer? 22:50:39 Vorpal: yes 22:50:44 elliott: Somewhere I have a screenshot of OpenSolaris' install where it lets you select "no language" <-- i now imagine an OS where all messages are given as interpretive dance videos 22:50:44 Vorpal: but it's the nightly build 22:50:45 elliott, for debian linux? 22:50:48 so ic an forgive the unusability 22:50:50 elliott, or debian/hurd? 22:50:50 Vorpal: yes... 22:50:52 linux 22:50:55 i'm not that crazy. yet 22:50:58 well i tried it 22:50:59 elliott, then "wtf" :P 22:51:02 but no way does it have a graphical install 22:51:04 it's ancient 22:51:05 (hurd) 22:51:09 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:51:10 Vorpal: well it's a nightly build of the installer 22:51:12 installing latest testing 22:51:13 SO EYAH 22:51:14 *YEAH 22:51:18 elliott, could be debian/somebsd 22:51:24 but yeah 22:51:26 well 22:51:28 strange 22:51:35 elliott, select from full list probably 22:51:49 i just left it as-is 22:51:53 elliott, since the "select keymap from arch list" is missing there 22:52:04 er? 22:52:05 elliott, well if you have US international it probably works 22:52:05 no it's not 22:52:07 it's the first option 22:52:10 in the list 22:52:10 oh 22:52:11 waiht 22:52:19 also, i set United Kingdom as my location before, so 22:52:22 elliott, thought that was some header 22:52:24 hopefully it's not dumb 22:52:26 Vorpal: ah 22:52:59 elliott, the selection played tricks on the apparent colour of the first element 22:53:03 I think debian-installer is the only program that pulls off using the exact same interface on the console and graphically. 22:53:03 -!- wareya has joined. 22:53:06 elliott, it looked like the background is darker 22:53:08 than for those below 22:53:09 Surprisingly it's not hideous. 22:53:11 Vorpal: heh 22:53:15 elliott, optical illusion I think 22:53:18 I still see it 22:53:29 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/309724/optical/same-color-illusion.png 22:53:30 elliott, but only at a specific distance from the screen 22:53:34 that one's the worse 22:53:39 possibly the most striking optical illusion of all 22:53:45 elliott, old 22:53:48 yes 22:53:50 but famous 22:53:57 and still impossible to believe without verifying 22:53:58 elliott, yes, why dropbox? 22:54:03 first google image result 22:54:12 No, Debian, I don't want the graphical desktop environment. 22:54:20 I'm ASSEMBLING MY OWN YAY 22:55:09 btw, i don't want to have that clonky large font size look and fell in the terminal, i want the ubuntu one! how can i achieve it? 22:55:10 roOoty: just get logged in first 22:55:10 jpinx-eeepc: yes, but i want to know if it is worht all the logging in or if it would be better to stick with ubuntu or something :) 22:55:12 i have learned something today 22:55:16 #debian makes me want to stab people 22:55:29 elliott: btw, the text install asks that question in a very different way, and I never use the graphical installer, which is why I have no answer :P 22:55:30 specifically, any Ubuntu or Mandriva user who comes into #debian will then proceed to be maximally imbecilic 22:55:43 elliott: i thought everywhere did that to you 22:55:44 Gregor: No, no, there's the same questions in both. 22:55:50 Gregor: This will just be a nightly-build issue/thing. 22:55:55 Gregor: Or perhaps a NEW INSTALLER FEATURE 22:55:56 oerjan: well yes but. 22:56:03 i like most people in #esoteric! 22:56:07 Ah. 22:56:11 even Vorpal i wouldn't stab. probably. 22:56:18 Gregor: I'd already told it my location, so. 22:57:03 elliott, you have in the past iirc 22:57:11 Vorpal: In... real life? 22:57:18 elliott, oh, over irc I meatn 22:57:20 meant* 22:57:23 I am truley sorry for your lots. 22:57:42 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:58:31 Wait. It surely can't have netinstalled already. 22:58:32 Huh. 22:58:32 It did. 22:58:40 I guess it installed all the packages before asking that silly question. 22:58:46 I approve. 22:58:56 Welcome to GRUB! 22:59:06 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:59:16 elliott, did that other elliott use the nick "elliott" or ? 22:59:18 " The malicious spreadsheet would find it very hard to get access to ".ssh": why would the user choose ".ssh" if Gnumeric opened a powerbox out of the blue without a good reason?" 22:59:25 Vorpal: elliottcable and ec 22:59:25 elliott, I'm upgrading the nick normalising regexp 22:59:26 Because users are clueless 22:59:31 elliott, ah no collision then 22:59:41 If the dodgy spreadsheet can pop up a dialog claiming to go to this or that file... 22:59:44 wow! I think Debian has... 22:59:47 -!- wareya has joined. 22:59:51 I think Debian automatically installed the VirtualBox drivers. 22:59:57 Indeed. 23:00:03 I appear to have mouse integration *on the console*. 23:00:09 Gregor: Hey, how old is that new console font? 23:00:16 The thin-ish one with the fancy g. 23:00:21 elliott: is this stable, unstable, or testing? 23:00:26 And the strangely short p. 23:00:28 ais523: testing 23:00:31 ais523: aka squeeze right now 23:00:33 elliott: On a scale from one to ten, I have no fucking clue. 23:00:36 "A piece of text that can be displayed in the powerbox window to describe why the application wants to be granted some authority. 23:00:37 " 23:00:37 which is frozen, and will become the stable release in like 349587345 years 23:00:40 That makes it even easier 23:00:53 oh, frozen testing 23:00:53 Fast bootup, though. 23:01:02 this explains why they removed C-INTERCAL, at least 23:01:06 ais523: You should use testing when it's thawed, too... 23:01:07 heh 23:01:17 ais523: bitter are we? :p 23:01:21 it made sense, I was just wondering "why then" 23:01:26 no, I'm not bitter, I agree with the decision 23:02:31 ais523, why did they remove it? 23:02:41 unmaintained 23:02:52 at Debian, that is 23:03:45 -!- catseye has joined. 23:03:49 Are there any easy-to-use distros that use Plash by default? If not, there should be. 23:04:37 I hate the part where things don't use sudo by default. 23:04:43 Gregor: You use sudo, right? See, that's a bad thing about Debian. 23:04:48 It doesn't use sudo by default because it's run by nazis. 23:05:06 *eh* 23:05:10 Sgeo: You straight-up can't use it on anything but Debian (or Debian-based). 23:05:15 o.O 23:05:23 Why? 23:05:24 elliott: Debian didn't automatically install the VirtualBox drivers for *me*. 23:05:39 Sgeo: Because Plash does fucking *crazy* shit that's Debian-specific. 23:05:40 pikhq: I'm sure with sufficient hackery you COULD use it on other distros, but it wouldn't be fun. 23:05:44 pikhq: I may be hallucinating, but VirtualBox definitely told me it saw sum of dat mouse integration support. On the *console*. 23:05:47 (I have no X.org.) 23:05:48 GO FIGS 23:05:53 elliott: Holy fuck that's awesome. 23:05:56 elliott: select count(*) from irc.logs_na where type = 1 and nick = 'elliott' and body like 'stabs %'; yields 24. Apart from one case of stabbing RMS and one case of stabbing your own eye (using a rake), they were all nicks in the channel at that point of time. 23:06:05 hmm 23:06:05 Why? 23:06:07 i received root's mail just there 23:06:08 elliott: Which Debian and which install media? 23:06:10 elliott, the first one happened one year and two days ago 23:06:11 (sudo warning that i'm not in sudoers) 23:06:14 Why does it do Debian specific stuff? 23:06:16 pikhq: testing, netinst 23:06:18 err wait 23:06:19 and this is after i rebooted 23:06:21 it wasn't sorted 23:06:25 * catseye stabs a rake 23:06:26 elliott: Same; didn't see that after rebooting. 23:06:29 with his eye 23:06:30 "one case of stabbing your own eye (using a rake)" 23:06:33 I... okay. 23:06:45 elliott, sorry, the first one happened in 2008 23:06:50 Nono, he stabbed the RAKE 23:07:01 Sgeo: No, that was catseye. 23:07:05 just now 23:07:42 Sgeo, the body of the CTCP action was "stabs his eyes out with a rake" 23:08:05 the UTC-normalised timestamp is "2008-08-09 16:02:45" if anyone cares 23:08:06 ais523: what happened to Gobuntu? 23:08:18 elliott: I don't know, I wasn't keeping track 23:08:27 it appears to have spontaneously ceased to exist before ever being released 23:08:37 perhaps they decided they were being outcompeted by Debian or something 23:08:44 OK! Now for the *experiment* 23:08:57 Mmmmm, nerds. 23:09:16 Gregor is eating nerds. 23:09:22 So, some thingy based off of Ubuntu, forked and pushed with Plash preconfigured 23:09:28 the candy, i assume 23:09:36 Basing things on Ubuntu: the best way to quickly show you have no idea what anything. 23:09:48 Base it on Debian, then 23:09:50 elliott, what was gobuntu? 23:09:53 Trubuntu 23:09:57 Vorpal: http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/taking-freedom-further 23:10:06 I could explain it to you, but that comic does it perfectly well, and funnier. 23:10:22 Plash wants Debian. I want easy-to-use 23:10:30 Sgeo has never used Debian. Or Plash. 23:11:04 It is obscene how many drivers come with X.org on Debian. 23:11:09 elliott, hah 23:11:18 elliott, true... 23:11:30 elliott, ever looked how many are installed on ubuntu? 23:11:37 Vorpal: I think it is best for my sanity that I do not. 23:11:38 elliott, a shitload as well 23:12:01 Sgeo: what OSes have you used? 23:12:05 elliott, about 20 video drivers and 10 or so input drivers 23:12:31 elliott, that is, number of separate packages 23:12:32 Gregor is eating nerds. <-- more filling than babies, i assume 23:12:36 elliott, not number of supported chipsets 23:12:39 Do not put the nerd in the mouth. 23:12:41 Windows, um, you want a list of Linux distros? Ubuntu, Freespire 23:12:41 which would be way higher 23:12:53 oerjan: unless they are baby nerds. or nerd babies? 23:13:16 elliott, why are you installing debian? 23:13:32 elliott, I mean, why not netbsd!? 23:13:37 it is soooooo much better isn't it 23:13:39 Vorpal: NetBSD hates my VMs! 23:13:46 With QEMU there's no networking, far as I can tell. 23:13:51 With VirtualBox it *segfaults* trying to boot up. 23:13:57 so kitten will be a debian fork then? great... 23:14:02 olsner: hell naw! 23:14:03 Freespire is dead? 23:14:04 :( 23:14:17 catseye: can you detect nerdiness in babies? 23:14:19 Sgeo has like the worst taste in everything. 23:14:31 olsner: I've only installed Debian to do some LeanDE mockups. 23:14:31 Sgeo, freespire? what, is that like taking the shitty linspire and removing everything that made it different? 23:14:52 olsner: (LeanDE = a few pieces of software + configurations for them, constituting a desktop environment that sucks ever so slightly less.) 23:14:59 elliott: aha, I see 23:15:02 oerjan: at age 18 months! 23:15:03 Hey, there was a Linux distro that I hated once 23:15:07 Linux XP, iirc 23:15:09 Vorpal: The only good thing about the Linspire folks is that they used Haskell for a lot of their system software. 23:15:18 elliott, that is actually nice 23:15:46 Kept asking me for money. Looked like crap. Don't remember if it behaved like crap 23:15:49 heh, Debian's default X11 configuration no longer uses twm 23:15:53 it's just a gigantic, white-on-black xterm 23:15:56 covering the entire screen 23:15:57 elliott, hm would it be a good idea to switch to writing security sensitive software in haskell? Such as su and sudo. 23:16:07 Vorpal: well. 23:16:12 Vorpal: probably not. because you have to trust GHC 23:16:14 's runtime 23:16:21 elliott, ah good point 23:16:23 Vorpal: and, like 23:16:24 with sudo 23:16:25 elliott, you want a much smaller runtime 23:16:27 you want to get the password 23:16:27 hash it 23:16:31 and then GET RID OF IT IMMEDIATELY 23:16:37 you can do that in haskell by using pointers and stuff but 23:16:38 elliott, very good point 23:16:46 of course there could be a nice abstraction for that but there isn't one yet 23:16:56 so as it stands, no, i wouldn't trust haskell with such things 23:17:01 utilities and package managers though, sure 23:17:01 elliott, you want to mlock() the password too 23:17:06 right 23:17:23 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:17:26 elliott, the issue is trusting C with this.... 23:17:41 Vorpal: well C itself is perfectly trustable, it's the C coding itself 23:17:49 potentially you could hash it as it comes in and discard each character after it's hashed. ha 23:17:56 in C, it would probably be simple enough that you can read it and determine that it looks safe :) 23:17:57 Vorpal: and I bloody hope sudo's password handling code is careful 23:17:59 i'm dreaming 23:18:04 olsner: hahahaha 23:18:12 olsner: AHAhaahahaha 23:18:15 hahahaahahahahahahahahahahaa 23:18:19 Ahahahahaahahahahahahahaaaaaaaa 23:18:53 ... and from that day, elliott spoke only in combinations of 'a' and 'h' 23:19:03 elliott, hm "* tusho stabs ais523's eyes out", not very nice 23:19:16 catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream 23:19:26 `addquote catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream 23:19:32 Vorpal: HE PROBABLY DESERVED IT 23:20:01 Vorpal, elliott: The real question is why su and friends aren't compiled with compcert :P 23:20:08 elliott, "* ehird stabs oerjan repeatedly with the Ancient Staff of http://www.google.com/chrome" 23:20:11 Does `addquote still work? 23:20:13 that is quite absurd XD 23:20:19 zzo38: Yes. Slowly. 23:20:27 Gregor: compcert only compiles to ppc :P 23:20:37 Vorpal: i believe he mentioned using IE 23:20:42 Gregor: WAIT 23:20:43 elliott: Nope, it supports x86 now. 23:20:44 elliott, mhm 23:20:45 Gregor: We could use qemu. 23:20:47 Gregor: To run the ppc code. 23:21:00 elliott, compcert? 23:21:06 Vorpal: formally verified C compiler 23:21:08 written in Coq 23:21:10 elliott, ah 23:21:17 Gregor: So you like compcert then. So I guess you like academic, purely functional, sub-TC languages. 23:21:18 elliott, wow err, why 23:21:20 Gregor: Y'know, like Coq. 23:21:28 -!- calamari has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 23:21:29 Vorpal: because you can't trust gcc and friends to compile code correctly. 23:21:32 You can trust compcert in this way. 23:21:46 "[09/2010] Version 1.8 of the Compcert C compiler is available. It includes [..] a new port generating x86-32 bits code" 23:22:06 I was wrong, the xterm doesn't cover the screen 23:22:08 elliott, well... that depends on the reasoning about x86 code being correct 23:22:10 it's just that the screen is black, too 23:22:16 Vorpal: it's formally verified. with Coq. 23:22:21 Vorpal: read the papers 23:22:31 I do like Coq. 23:22:40 oh, compcert is actually programmed in Caml 23:22:42 elliott, yes, but that means whoever told coq about what the asm did had better not typo :P 23:22:44 Gregor: You like O'Caml? 23:22:45 oh, have they removed the insanely ugly checkerboard pattern in X? 23:22:50 olsner: well, Debian have 23:22:57 -!- EgoBot has joined. 23:22:58 Vorpal: i don't think you quite understand 23:22:59 -!- HackEgo has joined. 23:23:06 elliott: You have no faculty to understand that ":P" means "I am not being serious here!" 23:23:10 `addquote catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream 23:23:24 Gregor: You have clearly never conversed with Vorpal before. 23:23:39 O, that must be why it didn't work. 23:23:44 zzo38: Yup :P 23:23:49 hmm, how does stuff set the default X11 resolution in this bright new xorg.conf-less age? 23:23:54 zzo38: Thanks for pointing out that it was down. 23:23:58 elliott, ";P" means "not being serious". ":P" means either that or "hah, take that" 23:24:03 at least when I use them 23:24:15 Experiment successful! 23:24:27 hmm, how does stuff set the default X11 resolution in this bright new xorg.conf-less age? 23:24:27 I *can* burn DVDs under Windows. 23:24:27 :| 23:24:30 And yet it still seems slow? 23:24:37 catseye: NetBSD. Burn. Go. 23:24:50 elliott, gnome-monitor-settings or something ;P 23:24:52 whatever 23:24:56 Vorpal: Yes, what do *they* do? 23:24:58 elliott: Soon. 23:24:59 elliott: Whaddya mean, "stuff"? 23:25:01 zzo38: It always takes a long time the first time. 23:25:05 elliott, call xrandr maybe? 23:25:10 elliott: Oh, that. MAAAGIIIC 23:25:16 Vorpal: What, and have X11 switch to a bad resolution even beforehand? 23:25:18 pikhq: wat. 23:25:27 elliott, oh that. Magic 23:25:30 ... 23:25:36 I, uh. 23:25:38 What? 23:25:42 elliott: I'm pretty sure that you create an xorg.conf. 23:25:49 pikhq: Ubuntu doesn't. 23:25:50 But MINIMAL! 23:25:52 elliott, you are asking about deep black magic. 23:25:54 badrelution 23:25:56 elliott, what do you expect. 23:26:07 So, what's my epic misunderstanding about Plash? 23:26:15 Apparently to X11, white means "another kind of checkerboard". 23:26:23 elliott, hah 23:26:26 OHH wait no. 23:26:31 I just used -fg instead of -solid. 23:26:32 SILLY ME. 23:26:49 Gregor: What does it have to do, make a telephone call? Copy an entire hard drive? Request permission from a million servers? Make slow magic spell? 23:27:01 elliott, I don't think anyone except a handful of select initiates that passed the rite of being X developers know how you set the defaults any more 23:27:03 Gregor: It is totally broken my friend. 23:27:41 Vorpal: I don't think there's a single person left in the world who likes X11 now. 23:28:05 244| catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream 23:28:40 Not even the X11 devs. 23:29:04 elliott, http://sprunge.us/gKWJ 23:29:27 I have never stabs anyone1 23:29:31 OSHI- 23:29:39 Ffff 23:29:41 hackego is slow 23:29:42 Minimalist xorg.conf = contradiction 23:29:48 Oh wait 23:29:55 Is type=1 /me? 23:30:05 Sgeo, yes, and you fail at sql syntax too 23:30:08 for matching the body 23:30:14 That would make sense, especially since there can't be text at the beginning 23:30:19 Other than stabs 23:30:24 all options for accessing linux parts from windows vista seem a bit unwholesome, so I'm going to boot into Ubuntu and copy to here instead 23:30:45 * Sgeo stabs procrastinatory tiredness 23:30:49 pikhq: AARGH. It seems that what most things do is just *make gdm/whatever run xrandr -s*. 23:30:58 elliott, oh and postgresql is way faster than sqlite at queries 23:31:21 Ah 23:31:22 fizzie, you might find that useful to know as well 23:31:24 Once HackEgo started working, now it works faster, it is no longer as slowly. 23:31:31 So it's shift-click that's the annoying fucking prick 23:31:32 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 23:31:41 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Client Quit). 23:31:48 DIE SGEO_ DIE 23:31:57 * Sgeo stabs Sgeo_ 23:32:18 -!- catseye has quit (Quit: staaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaab.). 23:32:27 Oh... I think I just remembered why I generally gon't get IRC stabby 23:33:13 what 23:33:37 I tried changing things in .fmt files for TeX, to see what happens. 23:34:28 http://www.auto-west.blogspot.com – It over driven with steam vehicles, was thought already in XVII in. Priest from Flanders, Ferdinand Verbiest, such driven with steam vehicle had in 1678 allegedly to introduce Chinese emperor, however there are no no proofs on this. Therefore it for first constructor of car recognise Nicolas – Joseph Cugnot which presented in 1769. Next important period such car in history of car are summer about 1870. Sieg 23:34:28 fried Marcus constructed first car driven with petrol then. It was can not be sure who first engine about burning constructed internal. It recognise that this made almost simultaneously several German engineers, independently from me. Karl Benz constructed in 1885 first car in Mannheim, patent soon later received and he in 1888 began production. Gottlieb Daimler together with from Wilhelmem Maybachem in 1889 in Stuttgarcie designed acting on simi 23:34:29 lar principle vehicle. 23:34:39 Including making category codes that are not in range, and making a macro with expansion that has unbalanced {} 23:35:26 http://www.auto-west.blogspot.com – [...] <-- url fail 23:35:33 "Sorry, the blog you were looking for does not exist. However, the name auto-west is available to register! " 23:35:33 indeed :D 23:35:39 it's some spam 23:35:44 ah 23:35:45 old spam 23:36:03 elliott, where did you find that 23:36:11 http://tuxicity.wordpress.com/2006/12/02/configure-your-resolution-in-ubuntu-and-debian/ 23:36:29 ah 23:36:58 elliott, for me it automagically uses best resolution 23:37:01 as in the native one 23:37:10 Vorpal: VM 23:37:18 244| [...] <-- that took _five_ minutes? 23:37:19 here it chooses one that gives me *scrollbars* in the vm window 23:37:19 elliott, oh good question 23:37:29 i could just X -configure but blergh 23:37:33 `help 23:37:50 oerjan, the VM is overloaded I think 23:37:50 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 23:37:51 fail 23:38:15 Gregor, why is codu.org timing out? 23:38:27 hm now it works 23:38:37 Vorpal: Trac or everything else? 23:38:52 Gregor, the repo listed in `help 23:38:54 was timing out 23:39:45 `stat quotes/quote.db 23:39:50 Yeah, lots of things have been going weird recently :( 23:40:03 Gregor, the metadata in http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/dbc0ae026888/quotes/quote.db looks outdated 23:40:10 it was changed more recently than that 23:40:12 `run stat quotes/quote.db 23:40:36 Gregor, check top, is it overloaded? 23:40:46 pikhq: What is XFCE's official display manager? 23:40:47 Vorpal: Right now it most certainly is, I'm poking at it and doing shit :P 23:40:50 Gregor, if not, then your xen host is overloaded and you need to change 23:40:51 No output. 23:40:51 File: `quotes/quote.db' \ Size: 28672Blocks: 56 IO Block: 4096 regular file \ Device: ca01h/51713d Inode: 1551941 Links: 1 \ Access: (0644/-rw-r--r--) Uid: ( 5000/ UNKNOWN) Gid: ( 0/ UNKNOWN) \ Access: 2010-10-17 22:40:08.000000000 +0000 \ Modify: 2010-10-17 22:40:08.000000000 +0000 \ Change: 23:41:16 `run file quotes/quote.db 23:41:21 Gregor, okay... 23:41:22 quotes/quote.db: SQLite 3.x database 23:41:28 `run du -sh quotes/quote.db 23:41:31 28Kquotes/quote.db 23:41:32 elliott: N/A 23:41:39 `run sqlite3 quotes/quote.db VACUUM 23:41:44 No output. 23:41:47 `run du -sh quotes/quote.db 23:41:48 28Kquotes/quote.db 23:41:49 pikhq: Okay: if XFCE released a LiveCD, what display manager would it use? 23:41:53 meh, didn't save much 23:42:16 Vorpal: Or anything, as far as you know :P 23:42:25 elliott, indeed 23:42:54 `quote 244 23:42:57 No output. 23:43:00 * Gregor proceeds to aptitude full-upgrade Codu as if that's a solution. 23:43:00 elliott, was that the command? 23:43:08 Vorpal: indeed. 23:43:12 elliott, your quote adding seems like it didn't get registered 23:43:20 `quote 243 23:43:20 elliott, which is why I tested something on the db 23:43:22 243| ais523: my nose feels like a bad heuristic 23:43:38 Gregor, why did " 244| catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream" never get registered 23:43:38 Gregor: full-upgrade. ANOTHER command? 23:43:57 elliott: It's equivalent to dist-upgrade. 23:44:05 Gregor: i thought safe-upgrade was thet hing. 23:44:09 quick, take backup 23:44:18 `addquote catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream 23:44:18 Vorpal: Presumably it failed to merge. 23:44:24 upgrade was unsafe, safe-upgrade was too conservative, dist-upgrade upgrades everything? 23:44:25 Gregor, err, okay 23:44:29 elliott: safe-upgrade is upgrade. 23:44:34 Gregor: Oh. 23:44:37 244| catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream 23:44:37 I wonder why upgrade couldn't just be fixed 23:44:43 Bleh, I have no idea about any of these stupid commands. 23:45:20 `quote 244 23:45:24 pikhq: I just want a decent display manager! 23:45:34 xdm is nice but you have to configure it tons with -- ugh -- Xresources. 23:45:41 244| catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream 23:46:07 `quote 23:46:08 `quote 23:46:20 elliott, please stop that 23:46:28 Vorpal: What, all two of them? 23:46:29 elliott, the system is overloaded anyway 23:46:40 I can read. 23:46:46 `uptime 23:47:02 I wonder what the load averages will be 23:47:38 `quote 243 23:48:07 243| ais523: my nose feels like a bad heuristic 23:48:08 elliott: it's hard to debug havoc on your mirror if you accidentally hit r, then a character could be multiple words long, depending on the task. 23:48:08 elliott, btw I'm waiting for the Routing Information Protocol to be superseded. Know why? 23:48:14 Vorpal: why? 23:48:20 elliott, so I can say "RIP RIP" 23:48:40 fungot: you're relevant as always 23:48:41 oerjan: what's different? it seems pointless to have vector-set! and vector-ref. ( hm, this button should be about 100 mbps both directions. at least, i think 23:48:43 `run uptime 23:49:19 -!- catseye has joined. 23:49:30 `addquote elliott: it's hard to debug havoc on your mirror if you accidentally hit r, then a character could be multiple words long, depending on the task. 23:49:30 Vorpal: sounds pretty cool. very similar, and i'd like to see source code.) good stuff. i just think it would 23:49:49 elliott, please stop that 23:49:49 elliott, the system is overloaded anyway 23:49:51 :p 23:49:55 elliott, oh yeah 23:50:06 I'm lovin' how while I'm doing a dist-upgrade and super-overloading the system everybody wants to use it :P 23:50:07 elliott, it is a sucky system too 23:50:16 Vorpal: what, codu? 23:50:18 not it isn't... afaik 23:50:45 elliott, I mean, my system is was more responsive than that when dist-upgrading from jaunty to karmic and karmic to lucid 23:51:02 I'll just defer to Gregor here..... 23:52:03 http://www.togaware.com/linux/survivor/Wajig_Overview.html Wow. 23:52:06 That is a lot of commands. 23:52:09 No output. 23:52:09 No output. 23:52:09 22:52:03 up 19 days, 4:27, 0 users, load average: 15.92, 12.08, 8.42 23:52:14 It's not, but recently it's been pretty bad. I don't know if it's an issue with prgmr or me. 23:52:27 http://wajig.togaware.com/gjig-screenshot.jpg lol 23:52:36 Gregor: well prgmr are full 23:52:36 210| I love logic, especially the part where it makes no sense. 23:52:38 although they usually are 23:52:41 oh boy 23:52:43 here comes the output 23:52:44 slowly 23:52:47 :P 23:52:54 When they run out of letters for Ubuntu codenames and don't want to repeat anymore, then they will use letters from other language and make it up themself 23:52:57 Gregor: oh no wait 23:52:59 "We added 3 new servers so far this month, and have gotten through the waiting list. Ordering is open for now and more parts are on order. we will try our best to keep up with demand. Right now, there is a 24 hour backlog to do provisioning." 23:53:06 zzo38: no they won't, they'll just start from the first letter or change the name 23:53:12 also, there's a decade or two before that will happen. 23:53:25 22:53:24 up 19 days, 4:29, 0 users, load average: 10.93, 11.53, 8.53 23:53:31 elliott, what is http://www.togaware.com/linux/survivor/Wajig_Overview.html really? 23:53:37 Vorpal: a frontend to apt and stuff. 23:53:38 elliott, it says how it works but not what it is 23:53:46 package management and shit. 23:53:50 elliott, okay, nothing wrong with apt-get and aptitude 23:53:52 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 23:54:03 Power outage yay! 23:54:04 well some of the commands look useful 23:54:06 elliott, (apt-get because aptitude source won't work, while apt-get source will!) 23:54:07 installrs for instance 23:54:17 Vorpal: no aptitude in latest ubuntu :) 23:54:19 you have to install it yourself 23:54:29 (it's to save ~megabytes~ on disc so they can put shitty applications there instead) 23:54:31 elliott, why on earth 23:54:35 (it's to save ~megabytes~ on disc so they can put shitty applications there instead) 23:54:39 apparently it saves like 13 MiB 23:54:39 245| elliott: it's hard to debug havoc on your mirror if you accidentally hit r, then a character could be multiple words long, depending on the task. 23:54:43 elliott, yes it arrived same second :P 23:54:52 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 23:55:01 Gregor: prgmr supports netbsd which is cool CAN YOU TELL I WANT TO USE NETBSD 23:55:02 elliott, but apt-get is still there? 23:55:23 `uptime 23:55:25 22:55:24 up 19 days, 4:31, 0 users, load average: 6.87, 10.18, 8.43 23:55:30 ah 23:55:39 -!- HackEgo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:55:41 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:57:12 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:57:21 I need to make commands in TeX for modifying the eqtb[] and various other things directly, so that you can write \the\equiv\basethe\catcode0 23:58:09 And also \dvibinary to send arbitrary binary data into the DVI file, and trick the page position