00:00:03 Sgeo: And? 00:00:06 elliott, btw, further bad language ideas: coqtalk 00:00:14 Sgeo: How do you know the syntax isn't flexible enough to do that with a library function? 00:00:15 Maybe I'm taking "any" too literally 00:00:31 Hmm, good point 00:00:33 Sgeo: Do they need to know how while is implemented? 00:03:16 Sgeo: It was not written by a native English speaker, so, yes, you are/ 00:03:41 Am I inadverdantly causing this channel to like a language? 00:03:47 * Sgeo feels like he has a superpower 00:05:10 "A Picture viewer and media player, which is designed for some GPS handhold device." -- 00:05:16 we're not sure which one 00:05:33 * Sgeo is not entirely sure what the difference between = and <- is 00:05:36 Sgeo: no, we hate it 00:05:40 just you hate it for the wrong reasons 00:05:44 *we* hate it because it's not Apex 00:05:52 It has got on my (Other) List 00:05:56 right, cpressey's dolphin-mermaid god-wife cunningly disguised as cpressey? 00:06:05 * elliott meddling kid 00:06:25 no more banana pepper ice cream floats before bedtime for you! 00:06:32 There are no examples of -> 00:06:55 cpressey: BUT DAD ;_; 00:07:26 "active mobile native persistent" 00:07:27 Oooh 00:07:38 It has some sort of builtin OO DB? 00:10:04 elliott: what was the name of that minimal python editor in python, again? 00:11:07 cpressey: sec 00:11:25 cpressey: http://www.logarithmic.net/pfh/yaedit 00:11:28 this is why i don't use bookmarks 00:11:36 I found that just by remembering "logarithmic.net" 00:11:44 cool thanks 00:11:49 cpressey: I tried it out and it's totally cool but it has deficiencies. 00:12:00 cpressey: For instance while it does the auto-save thing it has no VCS support making it a bit of a bitch. 00:12:05 cpressey: Also no auto-indent. 00:12:11 cpressey: Well, there's copy-indent-of-last-line. 00:12:13 But that's bullshit. 00:13:46 well, i figured i wanted to try it, at least 00:14:14 cpressey: What you need to use is leaden! 00:14:24 cpressey: Which I am either going to code, or Kayak, right now! 00:14:46 Is Kayak your web browser? The log was way too long for me to dig through 00:15:21 * Sgeo needs a tutorial on Haskell zippers, other than that one with that greek gaming company 00:15:35 cpressey: Yes 00:15:41 cpressey: It displays web pages! 00:16:29 Kayak (Mozilla/5.0; Gecko; WebKit/531.2+; Safari/531.2+; Version/5.0) 00:16:35 cpressey: And it has this unbelievable user agent! 00:16:43 Yes, well 00:16:55 Sgeo: ??? 00:17:08 I need food. And after the Jeff Atwood-related Horrors experienced here, drink. Much drunk. 00:17:08 Any good tutorial other than http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell/Zippers 00:17:11 *drink 00:17:18 Last time I looked at it, it gave me a headache 00:17:22 though the fruedieanness of that is inarguable 00:17:33 *freudian-slipperyness 00:17:47 cpressey: zomg wait 00:17:49 cpressey: is it JUICY atwood bullshit 00:18:05 elliott: No, it is CREEPY atwood bullshit. 00:18:24 cpressey: wait wait 00:18:26 cpressey: elaborate slightly 00:19:15 elliott: OK: "I consider the Wumpus my power animal" -- Jeff Atwood 00:19:18 NOTE: GRAPHICAL WUMPUS 00:19:21 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 00:19:30 cpressey: old 00:19:32 cpressey: seen before 00:19:35 not to ME 00:20:47 thankfully he never had my respect in the first place 00:20:50 so nothing lost, there 00:25:57 cpressey: leaden or kayak, which should I work on 00:26:02 kayak already has some code done :p 00:26:06 (leaden did but it is lost) 00:28:19 -!- augur has joined. 00:30:37 elliott: vagrant! rewrite it in Fuxi! 00:30:49 and so forth, and so on. 00:30:57 if you were looking for anything like a serious opinion, 00:31:05 I would get more use out of leaden, probably. 00:31:09 but for now, I food. 00:31:14 -!- cpressey has changed nick to cpressey|away. 00:31:15 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:31:42 -!- augur has joined. 00:48:36 I preordered the Barbie Computer Engineer doll, and every month Mattel emails me to tell me it's still not available. ... in spite of the fact that the site said it wouldn't be available 'til late November ANYWAY. Thanks for the utterly redundant emails there, Mattel. 00:48:52 cool? 00:48:58 -!- Sasha2 has changed nick to Sasha. 00:49:01 Gregor: whoa, wasn't it decided on like last year? 00:49:14 Gregor: How hard is it to create barbies :P 00:49:22 elliott: They create them for the "holiday season" 00:49:35 For all those girls BEGGING for a computer engineer doll 00:49:38 elliott: They only start selling them once they become Christmas gifts :P 00:49:40 YES 00:49:46 The COOL girls. 00:49:54 Gregor: or more likely unwashed middle-age men who will do HORRIBLE HORRIBLE THINGS to them 00:50:02 * elliott worst mental vision ever aaargh 00:50:15 Horrible, pointy things. 00:50:19 Coming soon to a basement near you: "...sheesh, that's not even *vaguely* anatomically correct! :(" 00:50:25 "...oh well *fap fap fap fap fap*" 00:50:32 -!- Sasha has changed nick to Chachi. 00:59:45 It still amazes me that a Congress-critter wanted to enact a law that would allow for the removal of citizenship of "terrorists". 01:00:22 I can't remember who the moron was, but still, how fucking ignorant of how anything works do you have to be to make that seem like a good idea? 01:03:08 12:07:44 elliott for the logs, other people who are interested: there's a currenty hilarious proggit submission http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/dwtou/stack_overflow_how_do_i_leave_my_site_vulnerable/ about an XSS vulnerability in Stack Overflow; one of the Stack Overflow admins posted to say they'd corrected it (and were annoyed at the way it was disclosed), and someone replied to him using Jeff Atwood's account saying 01:03:09 12:07:46 "I've tried being white hat with an SO employee before. All he did was change his password on one site but not any others." 01:03:09 LOL 01:03:15 I didn't see "Jeff"'s reply 01:03:19 But I saw the other one and commented on it here 01:03:21 The original post 01:03:31 And presumably he was completely ignorant of how statelessness works, as well. 01:03:41 FWIW, the deleted account's name was "codinghorror" 01:03:51 (if you become stateless, you get essentially automatic asylum status ANYWHERE.) 01:03:51 For some reason, it displays on Reddit is Fun 01:04:10 ... Yes, this does in fact imply that someone who lost US citizenship could claim asylum status *in the US*. 01:04:11 pikhq, I was ignorant about that until just now 01:04:31 Sgeo: *That* is something not many people know. 01:04:58 12:27:37 Well, I'd wager he's a very good programmer, but he's really a brilliant programming philosopher. 01:04:58 12:27:58 He knows what programmers need to make them awesome at what they do. 01:04:59 *Atwood*? 01:05:00 But quite true. International treaties on statelessness make it so. 01:05:00 Seriously? 01:05:05 FUCKIN' NUTS MAN 01:05:32 pikhq: It's not something states *want* people to know, I would guess. 01:05:52 I suppose. 01:05:59 Gregor, can you recommend me a good tutorial on Haskell Zippers? 01:06:08 But surely a Congresscritter would be told about it pretty quickly. 01:06:15 Oh, right. Congress. Morons. 01:06:16 pikhq, can you recommend Sgeo a good tutorial on Haskell zippers? 01:06:30 Gregor: No. 01:06:35 Sgeo: No. 01:07:01 I just know it's some sort of fancy list-like datastructure. ... Yeeeahh, that's not helpful at all. :) 01:09:04 Something to do with keeping track of where you are in a datastructure, I think 01:09:36 Sgeo: CAN YOU RECOMMEND ME A GOOD TUTORIAL ON *H*ASKELL *Z*IPPERS?!?!?!2 01:10:58 My goodness that's amusing. Because the PRC and the ROC both claim each other, de jure each citizen of either country is citizen of both. 01:11:28 pikhq: They both want defectors that much too. 01:11:45 pikhq: for some definition of de jure involving two different authorities at once 01:11:55 I'll try the stupid Wikibooks thing again 01:12:02 the only de jure position any entity can hold is that every citizen of either landmass/authority is the citizen of only one of them 01:12:11 as you can't recognise both of them at once 01:12:16 technically, you could recognise one of them, I suppose 01:12:20 but that would be silly 01:12:39 Gregor: De facto, citizens of the ROC are citizens of the PRC but not the other way around. 01:13:19 pikhq: I don't think the PRC has police working in the ROC. 01:13:20 The ROC does. 01:13:24 Therefore your definition of de facto sucks ass :P 01:13:27 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:13:30 Because the ROC makes a distinction between the area occupied by the PRC and that occupied by the ROC. People from the area occuppied by the PRC do not have right of abode in the ROC. 01:13:39 elliott: It's ROC law that makes it that way, not PRC law. 01:13:58 * elliott gives up on reading/understanding that 01:15:03 elliott: The ROC has a notion of citizenship that applies to people in the PRC as well. But all the usual rights of citizenship are instead bestowed upon "nationals". 01:15:55 Which is an entirely seperate classification that basically applies to people in the area governed by the ROC and their descendents. 01:16:06 "Nota Bene: this is not a public access server. Unless you are duly authorised, you are required to disconnect immediately. All your transactions are logged and monitored. If you disagree with this, disconnect immediately. In the interest of security, we reserve the right to scan your machine automatically and aggressively (including OS detection, port scanning and other intruder detection aids at our 01:16:06 discretion). If you do not concede to any of this, disconnect immediately." -- a *web page* 01:16:28 Good thing I'd already disconnected by then! 01:17:30 Aaand travel between the PRC, ROC, Hong Kong and Macau is determined by internal passports issued by the governments in question. SUCH A HEADACHE. 01:17:40 < elliott> *Atwood*? <-- I just assumed evincar is a master of deadpan. 01:17:58 catseye: I... hope so 01:18:38 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 01:19:37 catseye: WebKit(Gtk)'s API is weiiird 01:19:53 catseye: The icon-loaded signal gives you the URI to the favicon even if the favicon doesn't exist, not, say, an image or NULL 01:20:00 That's... totally not helpful WebKit(Gtk) 01:20:08 elliott: yeah! i believe it! i had to dig through it(Cocoa) a bit today 01:20:23 elliott: If I was to forceably normalize a site to use just one font, what would be the least offensive, most redistributable font I could use? This being if I were to even lose sans/serif/mono information for instance. 01:20:31 catseye: oh the webkitgtk api in general is nice and simple (something cocoa is allergic to) 01:20:38 Gregor: Try not to lose such information :P 01:20:51 Gregor: But uh *thinks* 01:21:06 Well, we'll step up from there on keeping sans and serif :P 01:21:20 Gregor: (To imagine what kind of question you just posed me, imagine someone asking "What computer should I buy and what language should I program in on it?" and when asked for further detail can't give any) 01:21:28 Gregor: (Or rather, gives the detail "for ALL USES") 01:21:40 So, it's easier to move from the ROC to the PRC than vice versa... Weird. 01:21:50 Gregor: I assume it has to be Free as in Fucking, not just, say, free-to-redistribute-but-totally-proprietary-licensed? 01:21:50 elliott: Well, the great thing about this use (WebSplat, duh) is that it kinda doesn't matter how readable it is. They're just platforms. 01:21:59 Well yeah, but metrics :P 01:22:00 elliott: Ideally. 01:22:37 Gregor: Okay -- Liberation (Sans|Serif|Mono) or Free(Sans|Serif|Mono). Liberation Sans' "J" is freaky so I'd go for the Free ones, but whatever. 01:22:48 Gregor: Metric-compatibility with Microsoft fonts is the reason. 01:22:58 Gregor: Shitty sites whose layout breaks without the right metrics will still function :P 01:23:16 Wow, I didn't even know there were fonts that aimed for that level of compatibility. 01:23:17 Gregor: Liberation Serif is classier than FreeSerif, but I'd go for the same family if you do distinguish. 01:23:30 Gregor: The Nimbus fonts also do that but they're beyond hideous. 01:23:39 (At least when browsers render them) 01:24:09 Gregor: Oh, Free* = GPL3. 01:24:15 Gregor: So, uh, you may want to avoid them. As unto fire. 01:24:41 And iff, due to the fact that it's not always clear what serifness is appropriate, I were to lose that information in SOME cases, should I prefer sans or serif? Keeping in mind again that they're platforms :P 01:24:41 Gregor: Liberation is GPL(2, presumably) with font embedding exception. 01:25:14 Gregor: Well, browsers default to serif. So there's always that. But >50% sites that do set a font set it to sans, I would imagine. (Although not >50% of well-designed websites.) 01:25:26 Gregor: So it's totally your call; I'd test to see which is less ugly. 01:25:37 I am incapable of making that distinction. 01:25:47 Gregor: Give me alpha versions and I'll tell you :P 01:25:51 Gregor: If the Serif or Sans of whichever family you choose is less ugly than the other, that'd probably be the one to go for. 01:25:54 * pikhq has the font default to sans... 01:26:09 pikhq: Nobody else does. 01:26:10 :P 01:26:27 elliott: I'll use serif fonts the day I get a 600dpi monitor. 01:26:33 Shaddup 01:26:41 elliott: Probably goin' with Liberation, and defaulting to sans simply because I feel a (slightly) simpler font would distract less, since you're not supposed to be reading it :P 01:26:45 pikhq: You already *have* a higher PPI monitor than you think due to subpixel rendering. 01:26:51 Gregor: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/FreeSansDemonstration.png Stunning grammar here from the FreeSans people 01:26:55 a font, in mixed case isn't 01:26:56 Now I just have to normalize on window width and things SHOULD be consistent >_> 01:26:57 a font VERY MADE BOLD 01:27:02 Gregor: 800x600 plz 01:27:08 Gregor: Or slightly wider/taller but not 1024x768 01:27:10 elliott: Insufficiently! 01:27:13 Some of us have screens that are x768 >_> 01:27:24 elliott: Height doesn't matter much. Why not 1024? 01:27:37 Gregor: Well, sure, 1024 would be fine. 01:27:45 Gregor: 1024x700? 01:28:09 Gregor: Just tried that with Kayak and it's a nice size although dangerously close to my taskbar. 01:28:12 (I couldn't have two panels like that.) 01:28:36 Gregor: 1024x650 is also good although very widescreen. 01:28:53 Gregor: 1024x675 strangely seems less widescreen. 01:28:59 elliott: Err, lemme be more clear: My hope is to lie to the renderer and tell WebSplat the truth. So you could use any size, it'll just look more and more weird the farther your actual window size is from the lied one. 01:29:08 elliott: It would even work with a smaller size, you'll just scroll more. 01:29:18 Gregor: Ah. 01:29:21 the normalization, she is for the multiplayer, yes? 01:29:26 catseye: Si. 01:29:26 Gregor: Then you won't specify a height at all. 01:29:31 elliott: No. 01:29:32 Gregor: Or, well, the renderer has to report one. 01:29:40 Gregor: So just say 600 :P 01:29:44 elliott: Right. 01:29:49 elliott: It can be more-or-less arbitraryish. 01:29:49 Gregor: But make the default window size 1024x675 :P 01:30:03 How about I make the default window size whatever you set it to :P 01:30:11 Gregor: But you need a stock default! :P 01:30:23 Gregor: Also, btw, pywebkitgtk is very nice. 01:30:29 It *is* Python, and it *is* gtk, but... 01:30:36 It's ridiculously trivial to get something going. 01:30:40 Is there a pywebkitqt? 01:30:46 Gregor: Not that I know of. 01:30:56 Gregor: But get over it, you already have Gtk on your system :P 01:30:57 Also, I'm almost certain I'll have to hack at WebKit proper to lie in the ways I need to >_> 01:31:02 Unless you're a software hermit. 01:31:05 Gregor: Perhaps not. 01:31:11 Gregor: http://webkitgtk.org/reference/index.html 01:31:20 Gregor: (The same API applies to pywebkitgtk except you stick .s in :P) 01:31:21 There ... is a webkitgtk.org ... 01:31:23 Gregor: there's a pyqt w/webkit unless i'm mistaked 01:31:23 *brain explodes* 01:31:29 Gregor: The Gtk thing is actually a port 01:31:34 Ohright, WebKit is officially part of Qt. 01:31:34 *port. 01:31:43 Gregor: Right, but that involves writing C++. 01:31:43 elliott: But ... GTK support is in WebKit trunk ... 01:31:45 And nobody likes writing C++. 01:31:56 elliott: I've hacked at WebKit. A lot. :( 01:31:59 Gregor: Yes, well, this gives a GTK-flavoured API or something? 01:32:06 Gregor: I don't know. It's what has a Python binding. 01:32:17 Gregor: And you can just put it in a GtkScrolledWindow and everything works :P 01:32:19 I'm just blathering at this point :P 01:32:48 Gregor: http://sprunge.us/SFHj pywebkitgtk example 01:32:55 Gregor: (Including my code to figure out how favicon notification works!) 01:33:02 FEEL THE GUIDO-ESQUE SIMPLICITY 01:33:13 Gregor: BTW, I'd steal my user agent-setting code. 01:33:18 Gregor: And *yes* all that is required. 01:33:23 *Yes* I tested N subsets of that. 01:33:28 *No* they did not fool many common websites. 01:33:35 Such as Google, Google Images, and GMail. 01:33:36 elliott: PyQt involves writing Python. 01:33:37 *Gmail. 01:33:43 pikhq: It has no WebKit binding. 01:33:46 AFAIK 01:33:52 pikhq: Besides, PyQt is ... ugly. 01:33:56 SIGNALS AND SLOTS WOOOOOOOO 01:34:00 More like signals and sluts. 01:34:02 elliott: I've built that sucker. It damned well has a WebKit binding. 01:34:20 i believe i side with pikhq here 01:34:24 pikhq: While Qt's UI may be nicer than Gtk, its Python API is not. 01:34:31 Yes, GTK is ugly as fuck in C. 01:34:37 some dude @work is using pyqt for webkit 01:34:37 But when you put it in a language with actual objects... 01:34:50 The only upside of GObjects is that it's easy to bind. 01:34:54 Gregor: Also I refuse to do font decisions if you don't use WebKitGtk. 01:34:55 OH SNAP 01:34:59 Imma let you guys duke it out 'cuz I'd be perfectly happy slapping shit together in C++ X-D 01:35:06 And that's the *principle* downside of C++... 01:35:08 pikhq: Qt has a motherfucking compiler from extended C++ to C++. 01:35:19 pikhq: And its own Makefile generator. 01:35:22 pikhq: A motherfucking compiler is the worst kind of compiler. 01:35:23 elliott: Which only makes things worse. 01:35:24 pikhq: And its own EVERY FUCKING CLASS EVER 01:35:25 "extended C++ 01:35:27 "? 01:35:31 catseye: See moc 01:35:35 catseye: It extends C++. 01:35:35 oh dear 01:35:37 catseye: For SIGNALS AND SLUTS 01:35:38 *SLOTS 01:35:40 yes well 01:35:57 What I'm saying is: Don't get GObject's C usage fool you, Gtk has a way nicer API :P 01:35:58 catseye: Qt has used a superset of C++ from, like, day one. 01:36:23 elliott: Eh, Qt's not bad in C++. 01:36:23 pikhq: maybe that's why it always makes me feel icky 01:36:29 pikhq: Yes it is. 01:36:29 elliott: It just doesn't fit anywhere else. 01:36:34 or maybe it's opera 01:36:35 pikhq: IT HAS ITS OWN STRING CLASS 01:36:54 elliott: Yes, welcome to the pain of C++ idioms. 01:36:54 elliott: So does WebKit :P 01:37:00 Gregor: YEAH WELL 01:37:02 elliott: Have you seen WebKit's wtf? 01:37:14 Gregor: Please tell me that stands for WebKit Template Framework 01:37:16 elliott: I've seen single-file C++ programs with their own file class. 01:37:19 elliott: It does. 01:37:25 Gregor: Please tell me that's deliberate 01:37:25 elliott: Name extremely intentional. 01:37:27 <3 01:37:28 <333 01:37:54 Gregor: I always knew I liked that... uh, person whose nick starts with a "b" and then another letter that totally can't be pronounced after "b" who works on WebKit at Apple and is on IRC and reddit. 01:39:43 well let's try out this lil' browser then 01:40:17 i... have not installed python yet? 01:40:30 X-D 01:40:32 too busy rebuilding mah kernel, yeah! 01:40:33 catseye: You'll also need to install pygtk and pywebkitgtk :P 01:40:39 catseye: Also: No URL entry field. 01:40:44 GOOD LUCK USING IT RIGHT NOW 01:41:28 Well, Debian has Python bindings to both Qt and GTK WebKit. 01:41:34 However, python-webkit-dev is GTK 01:41:41 Therefor GTK is the correct decision. 01:41:55 wow! pkgsrc will not allow me to install it 'cos it's got vulnerbilties. 01:42:14 Gregor: Indeed. 01:42:18 catseye: :D 01:42:24 cvs up might fix! 01:42:30 Gregor: Also, you can rip off my code example. Note: Code example licensed under ISC license 01:42:44 (As of now) 01:42:44 I Sue Competitors? 01:42:47 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISC_license 01:42:49 It's like BSD2, but shorter. 01:42:57 Which is like MIT, but shorter :P 01:43:01 Also like BSD3, but shorter 01:43:04 Which is like BSD4, but not retarded. 01:43:44 What's the useful distinction from the MIT/X11 license? 01:44:03 Gregor: It's shorter. 01:44:06 Looks like there is none, MIT/X11 is just more specific. 01:44:13 Gregor: Also, it doesn't duplicate the Berne convention. 01:44:19 should say AUTHOR(S) 01:44:29 catseye: The author is then multiple people. 01:44:36 Gregor: Really though I don't care about what license you use :P 01:44:37 can authors DO that? 01:44:42 Gregor: (As long as it's ISC) 01:44:48 Gregor: I'm just joking, it's public domain. 01:44:53 Gregor: But if it isn't ISC or MIT licensed I will eat your soul. 01:44:57 OK, I'll go with GPL3 with literally every option. 01:44:59 Souleatery. 01:45:55 GPL3 *and* cede the copyrights to the Free Software Foundation. 01:46:26 catseye: I wonder what would happen if you assigned some copyright to FSF without them wanting it :P 01:46:28 I so hope that's possible 01:46:36 ChildPornSearchDeluxe will be all Stallman's in a few weeks 01:46:54 See, they're like the DTCC. In order for software to be traded efficiently, electronically, they must hold it all in escrow, for you. 01:47:53 -!- augur has joined. 01:48:32 elliott: Make it the Creative Commons Public Domain License. 01:48:35 catseye: Indeed, they must, in that, I trust. 01:48:38 pikhq: No. 01:48:55 elliott: In countries with the notion of public domain it's public domain, in countries without it's a completely restrictionless license. 01:49:07 pikhq: I am well aware. 01:49:12 Okay. 01:49:14 I also don't give a shit as I don't believe my code can be copyrighted. 01:49:22 And if it can be, I also don't give a shit and don't consider it copyrighted. 01:49:30 Gregor could easily win any court case with this log :P 01:49:49 Hah. 01:50:09 THIS WORK IS COPYRIGHTED ONLY IF IT IS NOT COPYRIGHTED (Q) 01:50:31 catseye: (Q) <-- <3 01:50:42 NOW HOW DO I LOAD A FAVICON FROM THE WEB AND GIVE IT TO GTK 01:51:06 elliott: With beer. And hookers. 01:51:22 Gregor: *blackjack 01:51:37 Damn it, I knew it wasn't beer, but I couldn't remember what it was so I improvised :P 01:51:38 i don't remember gtk liking any image format except horrible ones (yes, i know .ico is horrble, but it is not gtk-horrible) 01:52:09 It only supports PPM and GIF 01:52:29 Gregor: Back in the day it only supported .xpk 01:52:31 no 01:52:34 something like that 01:52:39 C CODE, BASICALLY 01:52:42 catseye: .xpm/.xbm 01:52:46 that's it 01:52:52 it's C code! 01:52:56 in image form! 01:53:01 or something 01:53:01 yes 01:53:03 well 01:53:06 it's an image! 01:53:08 in C code form! 01:53:11 BETTER 01:53:19 #include "tux.xpm" 01:53:38 catseye: So this is, what, in the GTK1 days? :P 01:53:44 Gregor: PPM is like XPM but lame :P 01:53:50 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b3/Screenshot-xterm-linux.xpm-GVIM.png 01:53:54 Look, vim can display PPM images! 01:54:00 With the magic of syntax highlighting! 01:54:03 *XPM 01:54:11 catseye: Warning: ^ is beautiful 01:54:31 Wow, that's pretty epic. 01:56:07 Gregor: GTK1 is AWESOME. 01:56:11 Gregor: Combine with something like Emacs' various drawing modes and TADA 01:56:17 1.2, 1.3, where-ever it stopped. 01:56:55 1.999999999999 01:57:09 elliott: I approve 01:57:15 GTK 2 IS REALLY GTK 1 01:57:17 (of image) 01:57:18 GTK 1.9 RECURRING 01:58:55 ok, i have built kernel! how to instal??!? 01:59:01   s.summary = "DO NOT INSTALL THIS GEM. IT WILL DELETE YOUR FILES." 01:59:02   s.description = "This gem attempts to delete everything in /. If you install it with sudo, you will be really, really fucked." 01:59:04 catseye: make install! 01:59:27 catseye: ruby's package manager is so awesome that anyone who has the appropriate permissions on rubyforge.org (not much, basically) can wipe your drive if you use the package manager as root ^ 01:59:31 or your ~ if you run it as a user 01:59:32 HOW AWESOME IS THAT 01:59:53 http://github.com/wmorgan/killergem/blob/master/extconf.rb lawl it doesn't actually do it 01:59:54 WIMP-OUT 02:00:14 pretty awesome 02:00:37 so ok make install installed a few things then bombed I AM CONCERNED OF MY SYSTEM NOW but will proceed 02:00:47 gently 02:00:57 like a rhinoceros making change 02:01:28 catseye: best. analogy. ever 02:01:42 WOOOH MYTHBUSTERS 02:01:54 bythmusters 02:01:56 is this the fan shit episode Gregor 02:02:10 catseye: No, that was last week :P 02:02:46 I dearly hope that episode involved someone sitting on a desktop fan while it was running (horizontally) and then shitting directly on it. 02:03:08 elliott: It did not :P 02:03:23 Gregor: LAME 02:04:46 *jawdrop* 02:05:02 # mv /netbsd /netbsd.old 02:05:04 # mv netbsd / 02:05:12 catseye: I, uh, that works? 02:05:12 to install new kernel 02:05:16 Oh, /netbsd isn't a directory. 02:05:19 that;'s what they tell you to do 02:05:26 catseye: That could so easily be a make rule :P 02:05:57 it could! i don't like the BSDs system build system anyway though 02:06:07 MAKE IS NOT A PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE STOP PLEASE STOP 02:06:47 catseye: WE SHOULD STOP WRITING TELEGRAMS STOP PLEASE STOP JUST STOP AND THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE DOING PLEASE STOP STOP 02:08:36 Make is TC, isn't it? 02:08:40 (Idonno, maybe it's not) 02:09:02 Actually, never mind, no recursion or iteration except in the the underlying shell. 02:09:17 Gregor: Well... 02:09:23 which make is MORE than happy to do! 02:09:31 Gregor: If you have a rule for the makefile currently running, it will execute if any of the dependencies are out-of-date. 02:09:38 Gregor: And then re-run make after you do that. 02:09:49 elliott: Heynow! That's like the CPP trick :P 02:09:54 Gregor: Yup :P 02:10:07 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:10:09 Gregor: (Which I'm not convinced works without something that expands to \n) 02:10:22 Neither am I, but I'm not willing to believe that it's not yet :P 02:10:34 -!- augur has joined. 02:10:36 Gregor: Well, repeated regexps are TC. 02:12:00 Gregor: (Proof: Imagine a regexp that executes, say, a single step of brainfuck except instead of [] you have | which pushes the code after it to a stack, ; which stops executing, : which pops off stack and executes, and ? which runs the next instruction iff !=0) 02:12:09 Gregor: Pretty easy to imagine, and then just iterate that. 02:12:24 I'm sure cpressey can confirm :P 02:12:58 Well a "regexp" only matches a string. If you mean an s/// replacement thingy, sure. Just write a Tag system and be done with it. 02:13:10 catseye: Well, yeah. 02:13:26 catseye: s/// with proper, regular regexps and just $n in the replacement. 02:13:34 well -- do you mean, *only one* regexp, repeated? 02:14:10 The jury may still be out on that. 02:14:19 One regex to rule them all. One regex to make an extremely tired and overused reference. 02:15:55 I cannot believe how long Pringles has gotten away with advertising nothing but the shape of their packaging. The chips are actually pretty good, but all they ever advertise is that they come in a friggin' tennis ball tin. 02:16:24 heh 02:16:35 Gregor: They're alright but they leave me feeling emptier than when I started gorging on them. 02:16:41 It's impossible to get at the chips at the bottom 02:16:45 Which is probably why once you pop you can't stop, you're getting *hungrier!* 02:16:54 elliott: That's because it takes so much effort to get 'em out of the friggin' tennis ball tin :P 02:17:02 well -- do you mean, *only one* regexp, repeated? 02:17:02 The jury may still be out on that. 02:17:04 well, no, but 02:17:06 see BCT :P 02:17:10 but uh, i agree, jury's out 02:17:16 Gregor: :D 02:18:38 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 02:20:14 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 02:20:42 elliott: I just built myself a new kernel, and installed it. It is... about 1200 bytes smaller than the old one. Shall I try reboot for SELF-HOSTED GOODNESS? 02:20:50 catseye: did you use -Os 02:20:52 IT COULD BE EVEN SMALLER 02:21:10 No, just the standard whatever they supply -- quite surprised that it is not the same size, but 02:21:16 not too worried I guess 02:21:26 ok, more like 1500 bytes smaller 02:21:44 i'm going to memorize the recovery instructions then reboot 02:21:56 also if this works, i am going to customize the bastard 02:22:57 ta 02:22:59 -!- catseye has quit (Quit: leaving). 02:23:17 -!- storkbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:23:39 I DISBELIEVE IN WATCHING LIVE TV WHEN WAITING A WHILE GETS BETTER VIDEO. 02:23:48 pikhq: SO YOU'VE SAID, EXTENSIVELY 02:23:58 elliott: ANALOG TV SUCKS. 02:24:10 pikhq: ANALOGUE TV IS BECOMING NONEXISTENT IN US 02:24:11 NO? 02:24:16 OR EVEN HAS BECOME ENTIRELY 02:25:08 elliott: Tell that to the cable company. 02:25:18 -!- catseye has joined. 02:25:25 Self-hosted goodness. 02:25:30 Which still has a good 70 channels of analog and a small handful of HD channels. 02:25:53 pikhq: analogue != SD 02:26:11 catseye: It's not true self-hosting until you built the processor. 02:26:20 catseye: Also, you have to build the universe that the processor runs in. 02:26:54 elliott: It's 70 channels of analog NTSC-M and a hundred of low-quality digital SD video and a handful of HD video. 02:27:11 *SD video 02:27:17 Yes. 02:27:50 And I'm pretty sure the digital signals are QAM-modulated ATSC, if it matters. 02:29:33 Gaaah, why must NTSC-M live on? 02:31:18 -!- catseye has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:31:58 -!- myndzi\ has joined. 02:35:51 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:37:38 pikhq: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=105844179616633553359.00047b81468e20e376792&z=12 02:38:20 pikhq: Record of an actual journey :D 02:38:26 (via GPS) 02:39:01 Nice. 02:39:09 -!- catseye has joined. 02:39:13 hi 02:39:18 invalid MIT-MAGIC-COOKIE 02:39:31 just thought I'd share that with you. 02:39:31 catseye: quite 02:39:40 <3 Xauthority 02:40:05 i think i need to rm something 02:40:14 catseye: .Xauthority 02:40:17 in your ~ 02:40:18 elliott: TY 02:40:26 also: next time: reboot while X is running: NO 02:40:27 catseye: in future, don't run gui apps as root like that 02:40:31 oh, you didn't 02:40:31 ok 02:40:33 i wasn't root 02:40:37 catseye: clearly it's german "with magic cookie" 02:40:38 i.e. 02:40:38 i just sudo reboot'ed 02:40:40 "cookie, with magic" 02:40:42 catseye: ok don't do that 02:40:43 ever 02:40:43 yes! 02:40:44 :P 02:40:57 catseye: i've kexec'd from a gnome terminal 02:40:58 that was fun 02:41:02 worked thohugh 02:41:02 i'm used to it giving me a safety zone 02:41:03 *though 02:41:08 damn you, ... seatbelts 02:41:09 catseye: a what 02:41:22 a... oh, maybe i am thinking of "shutdown now" 02:41:34 it shuts down cleanly 02:41:57 -!- catseye has quit (Client Quit). 02:42:31 on linux iirc reboot = shutdown -r now 02:42:37 but probably not elsewhere 02:43:14 -!- catseye has joined. 02:43:19 rm .Xauthority* 02:43:21 the * matters 02:43:26 apparently 02:43:56 http://images.fastcompany.com/upload/urchin-1000.jpg 02:43:56 this 02:43:57 forever 02:46:50 Gregor: So how goes the Platform Edition :P 02:46:58 Haven't even started. 02:47:03 Gregor: BUT 02:47:04 BUT 02:47:05 DAMN YOU! 02:47:59 i like the maze 02:48:43 OK SO 02:48:49 i'm going to try CVS again 02:49:00 if the Lag: 716 (??) starts appearing that's why 02:49:30 :D 02:49:41 Is there a non-horrible way to put a website's favicon in the gtk window icon? The gtk icon setting methods seem to want either image objects or icon names and the like, and all webkitgtk appears to give is a URI. 02:49:43 [silence] 02:49:43 i should check the log to see if you actually saw that 02:49:44 -- #webkit-gtk 02:49:47 catseye: i did 02:49:50 catseye: do you see this 02:50:03 elliott: i see it 02:50:21 catseye: Yeah, you do need the * after .Xauthority. 02:50:33 catseye: Yes, the maze is the best part :P 02:50:41 (catseye: I'm just fucking with you) 02:50:41 elliott: kayak should handle webpages that are .exe's by loading them in dosbox 02:50:45 catseye: no 02:51:07 it's not a security risk. unless dosbox contains a flaw. 02:51:15 catseye: just no :P 02:51:25 ok, MY browser will totally do that, then. 02:51:27 catseye: i like that, 02:51:33 i just need python bindings for dosbox 02:51:35 or something 02:51:39 "blah, unless a large piece of software has a bug" 02:52:04 Cthulhu exists, unless Firefox has bugs. 02:52:57 updated pkgsrc through cvs! still won't let me near python unless i do awful things. 02:53:05 catseye: tell me what it says 02:53:06 i gotta know 02:53:21 ===> Checking for vulnerabilities in python26-2.6.6nb2 02:53:21 Package python26-2.6.6nb2 has a denial-of-service vulnerability, see http://secunia.com/advisories/41279/ 02:53:24 ERROR: Define ALLOW_VULNERABLE_PACKAGES in mk.conf or IGNORE_URL in pkg_install.conf(5) if this package is absolutely essential. 02:53:27 *** Error code 1 02:53:32 same for python25 02:53:38 i guess i could try python24 02:53:39 catseye: i like how they haven't bothered packaging python 2.7 yet 02:53:50 well why should they? 02:53:54 catseye: true, too RECENT 02:53:55 jeez i mean 02:54:00 too much of a BAD SECURITY RECORD 02:54:02 BANNED 02:56:00 "The vulnerability is caused due to incorrect error handling within the "accept()" method of the asyncore module, which can lead to unexpected exceptions being raised or unexpected types being returned, potentially resulting in crashes of e.g. Python server applications using the module." 02:56:09 and i am so going to be running python servers 02:56:20 i am going to be running python servers SO HARD on this machine 02:56:28 * catseye sets the fucking env var 02:56:44 *mk.conf var 02:56:45 sigh 02:58:05 We are doing science SO HARD right now. 02:59:17 elliott: there's a #webkit. ask there! 02:59:31 they pointed me at -gtk 02:59:32 :p 02:59:32 NOTE: this may not help 02:59:34 oh ok 03:00:08 waaaay too many people in #webkit 03:00:37 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:01:16 ERROR: python26-2.6.5nb1 is already installed - perhaps an older version? 03:01:21 watchoo talkin' about netbsd 03:05:16 oh fantastic 03:05:30 it's rebuildinging all the python-related packages 03:09:51 (this includes subversion fsr) 03:10:37 Is NetBSD the Gentoo of the BSD world? 03:10:49 Sgeo: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Zipper 03:10:56 Sgeo: No. They all do this. 03:11:58 I think I get it 03:12:06 But I'm very curious about the Generic Zippe 03:12:08 Zipper 03:12:57 I was just looking at that 03:13:50 but, damn. delimited continuations. BALK 03:14:14 i mean, i'm sure they're not so bad once you warm up to them, but initially? BALK 03:14:56 * Sgeo doesn't know what a delimited continuation is 03:15:03 But the Zipper-based FS sounds cool 03:15:39 Having a bit of trouble grasping the lambda as directory 03:15:54 uhhhh 03:16:00 http://www.cs.rutgers.edu/~ccshan/recur/recur.pdf 03:16:10 iirc that has some delimited continuation stuff in it 03:16:22 IF NOT, it is a classic paper in a field I do not totally understand 03:16:23 so enjoy! 03:16:58 * Sgeo decides to read the pdf about zipperfs 03:18:13 "one can cd into a file" 03:18:17 * Sgeo still has a headache 03:19:01 Vitejte na FTP serveru Welcome to the FTP server of 03:19:01 Fakulty informatiky Faculty of Informatics 03:19:01 Masarykovy univerzity v Brne Masaryk University, Brno 03:20:44 "It has a cycle ... you can do that in Unix, if you are root" 03:23:23 I think generic zipper is a pretty cool guy. eh provides constant-time access to a focus point in an arbitrary functional data structure that has a defined traversal interface and doesn't afraid of anything 03:25:26 -!- p_q has joined. 03:25:38 https://www.cs.indiana.edu/~adamsmd/papers/scrap_your_zippers/ 03:26:10 this is all very haskelly and i don't know what to make of it 03:26:47 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 03:26:53 * Sgeo doesn't know what Scrap Your Boilerplate is 03:27:35 neither do I. I've heard of it, but have never known. 03:27:58 -!- augur has joined. 03:29:16 http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/simonpj/papers/hmap/ 03:29:19 I still don't know 03:29:26 (I can't read PDFs yet) 03:31:14 if oerjan were here he'd know 03:31:28 Data and Typable apparently 03:32:03 tells me very little. i can infer something, but it's guesswork, and i don't like what i think it is 03:32:25 http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Scrap_your_boilerplate 03:33:14 yeah i was there 03:33:29 I think I'm going to run back to Smalltalk or Factor 03:36:22 Sgeo: in that case I vote for Factor 03:36:26 Smalltalk is cool, but 03:36:50 Factor is concatenative 03:37:00 although this actually makes it uncool sometimes 03:37:06 but whatever. 03:37:18 if is one of the more annoying things 03:37:40 Well, maybe not "more" 03:37:48 can you write decent video games in Factor! 03:38:27 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:38:48 I 03:38:51 I've never tried 03:44:05 http://www.pkgsrc.org/pkgsrcCon/2006/slides/presentations/why-pkgsrc-sucks.html 03:45:53 * catseye blinks 03:47:29 catseye$ which python2.6 03:47:29 /usr/pkg/bin/python2.6 03:47:32 pkgviews 03:47:39 oh, pkgviews 03:47:44 ok, why do you not set up 03:50:36 no, apparently not 03:51:44 and yet, i swear i was using python just yesterday 03:52:00 Sgeo: fall in love with C#! 03:52:18 C# is bland 03:52:24 Decent, but not sexy 03:52:35 Far better than Java, at any rate 03:53:56 "Far"? I dunno... they seem so similar to me 03:54:29 catseye: C# is basically Java with fewer mistakes, in my estimation. 03:54:35 pikhq++ 03:54:55 Gregor++ 03:55:21 Sgeo++ 03:58:06 sigh. pkgsrc subversion depends on the Perl, Python, and Ruby bindings to subversion. Stupid. 03:59:32 One package depends on three different bindings to single library? 04:01:20 One package depends on three different bindings to *itself*. Yes. 04:02:15 Because if you use subversion at all, you clearly need to use it programatically from three different languages. 04:03:54 Maybe parts of it are written in those three languages 04:04:03 Um 04:04:18 That would admittedly be weird 04:07:24 No, I'm sure that's not the thought pattern, here 04:08:07 The thought pattern here is "CONVENIENCE" 04:08:16 It's so stupid 04:09:36 "This function takes a string to be processed, or if it's a filename that file will be processed, or if it's a URL that file will be downloaded and processed, or if it's a filehandle that file will be read and that will be processed," etc 04:09:46 so 04:10:19 If you install subversion, you also want the Perl binding to subversion, and the Python binding, and the Ruby binding, and you want Apache 2 because you'll be using that to serve your subverison repo etc etc 04:11:31 Presumably to localhost if nowhere else? :-) 04:12:41 I use the svn protocol; I've never done the svn-over-apache thing, even on localhost. 04:14:49 * Ilari does not use svn protocol, but just about every git smart transport protocol variant ever designed... :-) 04:15:03 Including few custom ones... :-) 04:16:34 -!- augur has joined. 04:16:57 git://, git:// over TLS, git:// over TLS (another variant), ssh://, file://... 04:26:12 also... no... SciTE packages in pkgsrc, at *all*? 04:27:26 that's... just not right 04:27:40 PLEASE DON'T MAKE ME USE EMACS 04:30:44 * catseye installs "yudit"! 04:31:22 vim, man! 04:31:23 VIM! 04:31:44 pfah! 04:31:48 "Vim"! 04:32:15 THAT'S JUST VI WITH IMPROVEMENTS 04:36:46 yudit, on the other hand, will clearly increase my productivity 04:38:02 *decrease 04:40:24 * Gregor looks at vim's name. 04:40:26 Good lord! 04:40:29 It IS vi with improvements! 04:41:46 :) 04:48:23 vim is vi improved SO HARD 04:50:12 http://www.npr.org/blogs/deceptivecadence/2010/10/27/130860735/strange-arrangements-beethoven-with-a-salsa-beat This ... is so awesome. 04:51:29 Unfortunately it's become dynamically uninteresting. All of the big dynamic shifts in the original are flattened :( 04:53:31 (SDL needs *yasm* to build? wtf?) 04:53:33 It's the backing percussion that really ruins it for that. 04:53:38 They never shut up. 04:54:16 * catseye has awful flashbacks of "Hooked on Classics" and refused to follow that link. 04:54:23 *refuses 04:55:28 wait, wtf is *gedit* bringing in SDL? no... oh, it's dosbox i'mbuilding. ok 04:57:48 "settings". discuss. 04:59:29 Qt vs Gtk+: No-Holds Barred Build Race. 05:07:39 I think GTK+ will win that by a landslide. 05:07:45 I mean, Qt is not just C++, but augmented C++. 05:08:07 Also, I ^C'ed Qt. 05:08:22 Because tying up my machine with both of them seemed... rude. 05:09:02 Your poor Pentium 4. 05:09:48 Celeron M! 05:09:52 Like that's better. 05:10:24 Hew, I just want to know why my X windows mouse pointer is now an "X" at all times. 05:11:13 Other cursors are for the weak. 05:12:06 yay i have gforth installed. i will never use it 05:18:11 last I checked, the FreeBSD ports system lets you say 'make install' at the top level, and it will try to install ALL the packages. 05:18:35 kind of like if you could say "sudo apt-get install '*'" 05:18:35 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:18:46 except built from source. 05:19:04 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:20:19 -!- wareya has joined. 05:35:34 -!- storkbot has joined. 05:35:45 storkbot: are u gonna crash on me agin 05:35:45 -!- storkbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:35:48 yup 05:37:50 -!- storkbot has joined. 05:38:00 storkbot: is you reformed 05:38:00 catseye: ?SYNTAX ERROR 05:38:06 storkbot: pretty close 05:38:06 catseye: ?SYNTAX ERROR 05:38:15 |tell catseye I can take notes too 05:38:15 catseye: Consider it noted. 05:38:20 so yeah 05:38:21 catseye: catseye told me to tell you: I can take notes too 05:38:36 quel piece of machinery 05:40:12 |help 05:40:20 storkbot: i need to teach you that one 05:40:20 catseye: ?SYNTAX ERROR 05:40:42 storkbot: no, really, you need to know it 05:40:42 catseye: ?SYNTAX ERROR 05:40:57 storkbot: what's your other ysntax error message? 05:40:57 catseye: omg u errored teh syntax!!1! 05:41:03 good timing. 05:44:48 So, a HackBot wannabee with 100% more "actually up" :P 05:45:30 oh it is SO far from being HackBot you wouldn't believe 05:46:41 how could I even do that? Can't run plash, and I don't think jails exist on NetBSD -- just FreeBSD 05:47:54 Then I guess you're punked 8-D 05:48:53 -!- EgoBot has joined. 05:49:08 * Gregor has decided that EgoBot is safe enough, since it does very little I/O. 05:49:11 wooooo 05:49:55 HackBot would probably be fine too if I pruned its FS. 05:50:10 # dd if=/dev/zero of=test.big bs=1M count=10 conv=fdatasync 05:50:10 10485760 bytes (10 MB) copied, 2.90703 s, 3.6 MB/s 05:50:13 Approaching tolerable! 05:51:21 !python print "hi" 05:52:07 !help 05:52:08 help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . 05:52:19 !help language 05:52:20 Sorry, I have no help for language! 05:52:21 !help languages 05:52:22 languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh. 05:52:37 !forth 32 dup + . 05:52:38 64 05:53:13 Gregor: I note 'asm' is both 'Esoteric' and 'Other' and what assembly language *is* it, anyway? 05:53:45 x86_64 AT&T 05:53:55 joyous. 05:54:04 Note that "perl" is esoteric but not other :P 05:54:29 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 05:54:31 $ du -hs env-old-2010-10-28/ env/ 05:54:31 25M env-old-2010-10-28/ 05:54:31 308K env/ 05:54:34 Yeah. 05:54:35 !sh echo "$PATH" 05:54:36 /usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/games 05:54:47 !sh ls /usr/games 05:54:48 banner 05:54:59 a mini-HackEgo we have here? 05:55:07 !sh banner YESH 05:55:08 #### 05:55:14 .... close enough./ 05:55:58 Gregor: totally needs minischeme, which I am now deciding is the coolest scheme. 05:56:14 after DrScheme went all Racket on the world. 05:57:08 catseye: EgoBot's !sh is limited by having no persistent store. 05:57:23 catseye: Whereas HackBot's ` is limited by people putting huge fucking files in its persistent store :P 05:58:05 -!- HackEgo has joined. 05:58:15 `quote 05:58:16 69| oklofok: I'm a tad over-apologetic. I apologize. 05:58:22 Looka how fast that was! 05:58:32 Gregor: you rebuilt its store? 05:58:35 Yup. 05:58:38 Removed all the cruft. 05:58:45 Hence my 25MB -> 308K message above. 05:59:14 What I'd really like to do is implement this via a clever unionfs ... 05:59:17 i... suspected, but did not know fer sure, that was what it was. 05:59:52 `addquote * Gregor bashes his head into the wall that is Sgeo. 05:59:58 247|* Gregor bashes his head into the wall that is Sgeo. 05:59:59 `addquote elliott: Do not trust a computer you cannot throw out of a window. Including the window too far from the rope. 06:00:07 `addquote fizzie: got my dead keys back". 06:00:09 247| elliott: Do not trust a computer you cannot throw out of a window. Including the window too far from the rope. 06:00:09 248| fizzie: got my dead keys back". 06:00:09 Gregor: madam president, in order to achieve the planned strong increase in jobs in the french overseas departments martinique, guadeloupe and french guiana. as you know, in any case would leave unsolved the problems which will face us, but it cannot protect the health of consumers is one of the european parliament! it is all we need is more working opportunities, more resources, up to now cannot be regarded as waste but can be 06:03:43 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:09:24 -!- augur has joined. 06:13:22 ^style 06:13:22 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl* ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 06:13:39 ^style irc 06:13:40 Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams) 06:13:49 (not a fan of europarl) 06:14:07 fungot: this is much better, RIGHT? 06:14:09 catseye: banging your head against one problem really hard until you hit enter and it closes to match the integration of common lisp, by fnord. 06:14:22 totally. 06:21:33 |tell Phantom_Hoover Henry Freeman will give me hop! 06:21:33 catseye: Consider it noted. 06:22:33 Unfortunately HackEgo can't handle `tell, as it can only react on ` 06:24:32 storkbot sees all, but understands very little. 06:24:50 i changed the control character from @ to | based on oerjan saying that overlap with lambdabot is unwise 06:25:12 Somebody should bring a bot with a control character in the range [A-Za-z]. 06:25:17 So it'll fire for no obvious reason. 06:25:27 Fantastic. Yes. 06:32:21 I reserved the [a-z] range already two weeks ago. 06:32:28 But [A-Z] is still free, I think. 06:32:39 (There was a discussion on bot control characters.) 06:32:58 -!- storkbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:34:24 -!- storkbot has joined. 06:34:28 |help 06:34:38 |source 06:34:42 storkbot: help 06:34:49 >:( 06:35:38 -!- storkbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:40:59 -!- storkbot has joined. 06:41:33 |help 06:41:34 catseye: Help is available for: assignment expressions print goto 06:41:42 |help print 06:41:42 catseye: To print a string, issue the command 'print string'. 06:41:45 |print hello 06:41:45 catseye: hello 06:41:50 |source 06:41:50 catseye: http://pastie.org/1254707 06:42:07 |tell Phantom_Hoover Henry Freeman will give me hop! 06:42:07 catseye: Consider it noted. 06:44:58 (messages should probably be a magic queue in the user's variable space. but, not yet.) 06:45:04 'night. 06:57:47 * pikhq would like to applaud The Daily Show for using having the freaking President on the show correctly. 06:57:53 Half-hour interview. 06:57:58 That, there, is how it's done. 06:58:56 as opposed to? 06:59:54 coppro: It's America. The norm would be a 5 minute interview preceded by 25 minutes of penis jokes. 07:00:05 ah 07:00:16 And of those 5 minutes, most people would only see 30 seconds. 07:00:43 As it is, most people will *still* only see 30 seconds. God damned soundbites. 07:03:07 And now to struggle to convince myself to sleep. 07:12:34 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:13:38 -!- augur has joined. 07:31:21 -!- FireFly has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:32:44 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:33:16 -!- augur has joined. 08:38:54 -!- atrapado has joined. 08:39:04 -!- ais523_ has joined. 08:39:07 -!- ais523_ has quit (Changing host). 08:39:07 -!- ais523_ has joined. 08:39:07 -!- ais523_ has quit (Changing host). 08:39:07 -!- ais523_ has joined. 08:48:46 -!- ais523 has joined. 08:56:14 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 08:57:08 -!- augur has joined. 09:20:08 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 09:21:03 -!- augur has joined. 09:24:41 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:50:21 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:51:24 -!- augur has joined. 10:02:12 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 10:21:34 -!- tombom has joined. 10:26:17 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:27:17 -!- augur has joined. 10:53:01 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 10:53:38 -!- augur has joined. 11:45:19 -!- sshc_ has joined. 11:45:56 -!- sshc has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 11:49:27 hi 11:49:35 really cool sliding window demo: http://www3.rad.com/networks/2004/sliding_window/ 12:22:48 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 12:23:29 -!- augur has joined. 12:46:50 Hah... From one mail: "To be blunt, I feel is being subject to a DoS attack[...]"... And then in reply (not by me): "I note you don't say a DDoS attack.". 12:48:57 That mailing list is good example of that there are trolls far more dangerous than the garden-variety ones... :-/ 12:53:22 indeed 12:53:37 that sort of trolling can be pretty impressive, as long as it doesn't disrupt anything important 12:54:37 Actually, I feel that person has an agenda to sabotage the efforts... 12:59:22 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 13:00:06 -!- augur has joined. 13:00:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:04:33 Hah (roughly translated): "After wasting food, the worst way to play with food is process it for no apparent reason, e.g. by removing health from healthy butter and milk and replacing it with additives causing digestive problems and blood vessel blockages.". 13:06:20 Hah... I wouldn't want to see somebody getting transistent global amnesia attack (one major cause is statins (cholesterol drugs)) while driving a car... :-) 13:08:52 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 13:20:50 15:52:57 I think I'm going to uninstall my web browser and then act like people should have to provide me content without having one. ← There are an obnoxiously huge number of people with that exact attitude. 13:20:50 Phantom_Hoover: catseye told me to tell you: Henry Freeman will give me hop! 13:21:07 Did he now? 13:22:12 21:59:52 `addquote * Gregor bashes his head into the wall that is Sgeo. ← when did he say that? 13:26:29 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 13:27:18 -!- augur has joined. 13:45:02 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 13:45:35 -!- fizzie has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 13:51:18 Phantom_Hoover, sometime before 21:59:52 :P 13:55:07 > select serial,tstamp,nick,type,body from irc.logs where body ilike '%bashes his head into the wall that is Sgeo.%'; 13:55:07 serial | tstamp | nick | type | body 13:55:07 ---------+---------------------+----------------+------+---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13:55:07 1895410 | 2010-10-25 03:55:10 | Gregor | 1 | bashes his head into the wall that is Sgeo. 13:55:09 1895412 | 2010-10-25 03:55:24 | elliott | 0 | `addquote * Gregor bashes his head into the wall that is Sgeo. 13:55:13 Phantom_Hoover, there is the answer 14:11:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 14:25:55 "A dolphin from another stovepipe sells a steam engine to the self-loathing tornado. A canyon befriends a short order cook toward a chain saw. Most people believe that a turn signal related to the formless void reaches an understanding with a tuba player near a globule, but they need to remember how single-handledly a polka-dotted fundraiser beams with joy. A formless void related to a vacuum cleaner senator related to a skyscrape 14:26:01 spam gets better all the time :) 14:40:14 wat 14:52:25 -!- fizzie has joined. 15:12:06 ais523_: fungot's day job 15:12:44 What? 15:13:14 Look what you did: now I have to peru7se th logs. 15:13:32 fizzie: I'll repost to save you the trouble 15:13:41 "A dolphin from another stovepipe sells a steam engine to the self-loathing tornado. A canyon befriends a short order cook toward a chain saw. Most people believe that a turn signal related to the formless void reaches an understanding with a tuba player near a globule, but they need to remember how single-handledly a polka-dotted fundraiser beams with joy. A formless void related to a vacuum cleaner senator related to a 15:13:46 spam gets better all the time :) 15:16:54 incidentally, US legal system weirdness I encountered reading Groklaw today: Oracle are claiming that Google can't legally claim their patents invalid, because they currently employ their inventors 15:18:02 I am 99% sure that won't work as a legal argument. 15:19:16 Of course, that hardly matters 15:19:28 Especially in patent law 15:20:16 Where it's mainly a war of attrition 15:26:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 15:29:30 spam gets better all the time :) <-- indeed! 15:29:49 ais523_, I presume you have "text only" on just like me? 15:32:45 yep 15:35:44 also I wonder what happened, I should have gotten an invoice from the mobile phone carrier by now... 15:36:07 no it wouldn't have got lost in the mail because it is an electronic invoice... 15:52:38 -!- sftp has joined. 15:54:11 catseye: There's a far better argument out there. 15:54:46 catseye: Java is GPLv3'd. Thus, Oracle has given a copyright license for derivative works of Java *and* a patent license for related patents they hold. 15:55:04 catseye: Making everything Oracle claims moot. 15:55:13 (they're now claiming copyright violation, BTW) 15:56:17 -!- cpressey|away has changed nick to cpressey. 15:57:54 So, I do belive Oracle has become the new SCO. 16:04:27 radical, baby 16:04:46 is SCO still the old SCO? 16:06:11 -!- fizzie has quit (Quit: jumpin' jumpin'). 16:11:21 -!- fizzie has joined. 16:19:42 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 16:23:25 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:23:59 -!- elliott has joined. 16:24:20 -!- augur has joined. 16:28:46 waaaay too many people in #webkit 16:29:08 yeah it's at the point where the probability of a non-insignificant portion of the channel having no idea about webkit is 1 16:31:47 19:37:48 can you write decent video games in Factor! 16:31:52 unfortunately, *yes* 16:31:56 it has very competent opengl bindings 16:32:01 therefore sgeo will port The Shit to it tomorrow 16:32:09 although i guess that probably actually does no rendering itself 16:33:03 19:58:06 sigh. pkgsrc subversion depends on the Perl, Python, and Ruby bindings to subversion. Stupid. 16:33:10 i'd just keep them all in one package if i was going to do that :p 16:33:15 especially as that's probably how it's distribute 16:33:18 *distributed 16:33:19 with subversion 16:33:41 20:26:12 also... no... SciTE packages in pkgsrc, at *all*? 16:33:41 20:27:26 that's... just not right 16:33:42 YAEDIT! 16:33:46 IT MAKES PIXIES SCREAM 16:34:12 elliott: i have a weird python setup here, or i'd be using it already 16:34:27 cpressey: is it really that much harder just to fucking compile python? 16:34:30 i should try to fix my weird python setup 16:34:41 it IS compiled, FOR SPECIAL 16:34:54 cpressey: i mean from the tarball. 16:35:08 i mean, I compiled it. 16:35:42 20:54:16 * catseye has awful flashbacks of "Hooked on Classics" and refused to follow that link. 16:35:43 because 2.6.6 broke and/or fixed Unicode in a way where one of our unit tests fails. 16:35:45 god no it is awesome i swear 16:36:12 cpressey: You're on an older version of Python because *one of your unit tests is broken*? 16:36:23 I love your company. What company do you work at so that I can NEVER USE ITS PRODUCTS EVER? 16:37:01 I'm on an older version of Python because *no one knows if the unit test is right or not* and *Python changed its Unicode behaviour* 16:37:11 "older" being 2.6.4 16:37:14 21:10:24 Hew, I just want to know why my X windows mouse pointer is now an "X" at all times. 16:37:16 it's the default! 16:37:20 xsetroot can probably help you with that 16:37:30 cpressey: couldn't you just make it work with 2.7 16:38:08 elliott: you have no idea how slow and painful upgrades are in real production systems 16:38:17 and neither does Vorpal 16:38:22 cpressey: I thought you guys were Agile. 16:38:26 cpressey: i know, i really do 16:38:31 AGILE MEANS NOTHING, YOU KNOW THAT 16:38:34 i'm just taking the piss out of your shit company :p 16:38:38 :D 16:38:38 and how soul-crushing your job is 16:38:49 comparatively, this is heaven 16:38:56 comparatively to *what* :D 16:39:02 to my previous jobs 16:39:05 did you do a stint at Microsoft non-Research? 16:39:08 or, or, GNU?! 16:39:19 wages: Stallman's foot-pickings 16:39:38 i will clam up now, leaving this entirely to your imagination. 16:40:20 21:18:35 kind of like if you could say "sudo apt-get install '*'" 16:40:22 going to do this *now* 16:40:36 cpressey: is your company relatively well-known? I MUST KNOOOOW 16:40:51 zsh is able to tab-complete on APT packages, so you might be able to hack that in. 16:41:23 -!- fizzie has quit (Quit: jumpin' jumpin'). 16:41:28 -!- fizzie has joined. 16:41:31 $ aptitude search $(aptitude search . | awk '{print $2}') 16:41:35 Phantom_Hoover: Or I could just do this. 16:41:42 Annoyingly, tab-complete ability rarely translates to glob integration. 16:41:54 [ 65%] ?name("abcmidi"): Filtering packages 16:42:01 this is going to take fifty years 16:42:04 -!- fungot has joined. 16:42:10 cpressey: do you have ANY IDEA how many conflicts this will cause 16:42:21 iirc someone found out the largest set of installable debian packages 16:42:23 i should use that instead 16:42:36 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 16:43:35 21:49:08 * Gregor has decided that EgoBot is safe enough, since it does very little I/O. 16:43:36 dude 16:43:40 !sh echo happy 16:43:41 -!- augur has joined. 16:43:46 happy 16:43:50 `echo happier 16:43:58 happier 16:44:06 ^echo happiest! 16:44:06 happiest! happiest! 16:44:16 (He's... special.) 16:44:26 21:58:05 --- join: HackEgo (~HackEgo@codu.org) joined #esoteric 16:44:32 `wl no lutefisk 16:44:33 Oct 28 00:54:06 $ du -hs env-old-2010-10-28/ env/ 16:44:33 Oct 28 00:54:06 25M env-old-2010-10-28/ 16:44:33 Oct 28 00:54:06 308K env/ 16:44:43 Lutefisk 16:44:46 yay 16:44:56 Gregor: if you removed wl i would scrape your soul from its bowls and then eviscerate it 16:44:59 just fyi 16:45:05 especially since i don't have it locally :p 16:45:30 22:00:07 16:45:36 How about getting all the quotes I tried to add in the meantime? :P 16:46:06 Oh, that's actually it. 16:47:07 Uh Gregor? Greggy? 16:47:09 21:59:58 247|* Gregor bashes his head into the wall that is Sgeo. 16:47:10 22:00:09 247| elliott: Do not trust a computer you cannot throw out of a window. Including the window too far from the rope. 16:47:15 `quote 247 16:47:16 247| elliott: Do not trust a computer you cannot throw out of a window. Including the window too far from the rope. 16:47:18 `quote 246 16:47:19 246| syntax is the least important part of a programming language other than Python 16:47:20 `quote 248 16:47:22 No output. 16:47:28 Gregor: Greggy, things went bad. 16:47:49 `help 16:47:50 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 16:47:54 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:47:57 Quick repo-surgery time. 16:48:14 `revert 0 16:48:14 Done. 16:48:23 `addquote * Gregor bashes his head into the wall that is Sgeo. 16:48:24 248|* Gregor bashes his head into the wall that is Sgeo. 16:48:30 `addquote elliott: Do not trust a computer you cannot throw out of a window. Including the window too far from the rope. 16:48:31 249| elliott: Do not trust a computer you cannot throw out of a window. Including the window too far from the rope. 16:48:36 `addquote fizzie: got my dead keys back". 16:48:37 elliott: so that you can implement your own 16:48:38 250| fizzie: got my dead keys back". 16:48:40 There. 16:48:42 `quote 247 16:48:43 247| elliott: Do not trust a computer you cannot throw out of a window. Including the window too far from the rope. 16:48:48 ... 16:48:50 * elliott boggles 16:48:52 `revert 0 16:48:52 Done. 16:48:56 `quote 247 16:48:57 247| elliott: Do not trust a computer you cannot throw out of a window. Including the window too far from the rope. 16:49:00 Okay. 16:49:02 `quote 246 16:49:03 246| syntax is the least important part of a programming language other than Python 16:49:04 `quote 248 16:49:05 248|* Gregor bashes his head into the wall that is Sgeo. 16:49:10 `quote 249 16:49:11 249| elliott: Do not trust a computer you cannot throw out of a window. Including the window too far from the rope. 16:49:17 Gregor: You, uh, `revert doesn't work. 16:49:22 `revert 1 16:49:23 Done. 16:49:26 `quote 247 16:49:27 247|* Gregor bashes his head into the wall that is Sgeo. 16:49:44 `revert cf08cd8327ce 16:49:45 Done. 16:49:47 `quote 247 16:49:48 247|* Gregor bashes his head into the wall that is Sgeo. 16:49:50 Gregor: wat 16:50:46 -!- tombom has joined. 16:57:50 -!- augur has joined. 17:00:09 -!- evincar has joined. 17:00:58 21:18:35 kind of like if you could say "sudo apt-get install '*'" going to do this *now* <-- does it work? 17:01:11 it's still busy figuring. out. everything 17:01:14 [ 64%] ?name("libccs-perl"): Filtering packages 17:01:17 and this is only the first stage 17:01:21 this is the stage that is usually not even visible 17:01:23 oh wait 17:01:24 holy shit 17:01:26 lol 17:01:31 aptitude search $(aptitude search . | awk '{print $2}') 17:01:32 spot the error 17:01:53 elliott@dinky:~$ sudo aptitude install $(aptitude search . | awk '{print $2}') 17:01:53 elliott@dinky:~$ 17:01:58 "Fuck you." --aptitude 17:02:07 * elliott tries apt-get 17:02:10 elliott, I don't remember output format of aptitude search 17:02:12 apt-get does the same 17:02:15 Vorpal: it's irrelevant 17:02:16 Vorpal: look again 17:02:30 elliott: some packages conflict with each other 17:02:33 elliott, not regex? 17:02:38 ais523_, there is that too 17:02:38 Vorpal: ... 17:02:39 Vorpal: LOOK AGAIN 17:02:46 are you really sure you want to install multiple bootloaders simultaneously? 17:02:54 ais523_: yes, they do; there was an email i read about the largest set of installable package managers. 17:02:55 erm 17:02:57 ais523_: yes, they do; there was an email i read about the largest set of installable packages in Debian. 17:03:08 ais523_: which probably took ages to compute, but still, there's only 20k of them 17:03:14 elliott, assuming aptitude search . | awk '{print $2}' works, that line looks ok 17:03:15 and conflicts aren't very common 17:03:27 Vorpal: how about looking all the parts that aren't that 17:03:35 aptitude search $(aptitude search . | awk '{print $2}') 17:03:37 spot the error 17:03:55 *looking at 17:03:56 elliott: I spotted it a while ago 17:04:01 elliott, oh I thought you *wanted* to test performance there first using search for all the packages 17:04:02 ais523_: yes, but Vorpal is dense :) 17:04:05 Vorpal: ... 17:04:08 ais523_: yes, but Vorpal is super-dense :) 17:04:15 now I'm trying to find a second error out of spite 17:04:31 ais523_: WHAT IF APTITUDE SEARCH CHANGED ITS DISPLAY WHAT *THEN* 17:04:37 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 17:04:50 ais523_, well it's obvious 17:04:50 elliott: what if you were on DOS, and it exceeded the maximum command line limit? 17:05:03 ah yes xargs 17:05:09 |load 17:05:10 cpressey: ?SYNTAX ERROR 17:05:11 ais523_, wait, Debian/DOS? 17:05:34 ais523_, obvious error: he will be reinstalling packages already installed presumably 17:05:44 ais523_, should use dpkg to filter the output 17:05:50 that's not an error, aptitude interprets that as a request to update the package to the latest version 17:05:56 Vorpal: no, not xargs 17:06:10 because it has to work out dependencies 17:06:14 xargs breaks the command up into multiple commands, which you might not want in this case 17:06:15 good point 17:06:24 really, i should just find that largest set of installable packages post 17:06:26 hmm, what about using GNU parallel to parallelise the installation amongst multiple computers, to save time? 17:06:28 and run whatever script it has 17:06:29 and install those 17:06:36 bonus points if they don't share a filesystem 17:07:31 elliott: did you logread my post about Jeff Atwood and reddit, btw? 17:07:46 ais523_: yes, and logreplied 17:07:56 ah, I'll look there 17:07:59 having wireless issues... 17:08:02 ais523_: might be a day ago or so 17:08:09 ais523_: just grep // :P 17:08:23 -!- Wamanuz4 has joined. 17:09:09 elliott: I'm lucky to even have grep installed on this computer 17:09:12 ais523_: hmph, parallel seems like another one of those tools that seem to make things so easy except surprise surprise, they only work on embarrassingly parallel problems 17:09:21 ais523_: "grep" is a verb meaning "search (perhaps for regexp)" 17:09:25 also, hatred of Thunderbird: you can't open it simultaneously on two computers that share a /home 17:09:31 in this case, grepping a log is / or Ctrl+F 17:09:44 ais523_: ooh, that's interesting 17:09:47 I'd have to search for then, I suppose, I talked that day too 17:09:56 ais523_: hmm, no 17:09:58 ais523_: i have timestamps 17:10:00 elliott: Firefox complains, and doesn't save bookmarks, etc, but at least lets you try 17:10:04 ais523_: or rather clog does 17:10:06 and i quoted it from clog 17:10:20 ais523_: try , I probably talked before you 17:10:23 anyway, stop talking about it and go do it :P 17:10:31 ais523_: anyway, most single-instance applications use DBus or the like 17:10:36 not a file in /home... 17:10:39 hmm, if there's a flamewar I could really get into (other than darcs vs. git), it would be Evolution vs. Thunderbird 17:10:42 or does it *specifically* check for that? 17:10:53 ais523_: but *both* are unfixable pieces of shit! 17:11:48 -!- Wamanuz3 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 17:11:50 05:20:50 15:52:57 I think I'm going to uninstall my web browser and then act like people should have to provide me content without having one. ← There are an obnoxiously huge number of people with that exact attitude. 17:11:55 Note that it happened just after. 17:12:09 (Vorpal expecting a non-Flash link from cpressey after Vorpal pointed out he doesn't have Flash) 17:12:16 *what it happened just after. 17:12:39 06:25:55 "A dolphin from another stovepipe sells a steam engine to the self-loathing tornado. A canyon befriends a short order cook toward a chain saw. Most people believe that a turn signal related to the formless void reaches an understanding with a tuba player near a globule, but they need to remember how single-handledly a polka-dotted fundraiser beams with joy. A formless void related to a vacuum cleaner senator related to a skyscr 17:12:39 ape 17:12:40 dude yes 17:12:56 ais523_: can you forward that spam to me? it is amazing 17:13:11 let me look for it 17:13:39 ais523_: I wonder what they generate it with... I want their babble software. 17:13:59 Err http://security.debian.org squeeze/updates Release.gpg 17:13:59 Could not resolve 'security.debian.org' 17:14:01 how reassuring! 17:14:02 I'll pastebin it 17:14:30 the amazing thing is, most modern computers have enough disk to have all those packages installed at once 17:14:36 and even the ones that aren't installed as .debs 17:14:45 but your debian menu might get ever so slightly horrific 17:14:46 http://pastebin.ca/1975603 17:15:03 ais523_: thanks (that might get removed for spamming :)) 17:15:06 (I'm not forwarding it, because the email firewall here would go crazy if I started forwarding spam, it's that sort of firewall) 17:15:19 ais523_: did it come with the quoting? 17:15:31 "Any flavored hell can pee on the pig pen, but it takes a real football team to throw a slyly optimal formless void at a hole puncher." 17:15:35 no, I did that mostly by mistake, then by laziness 17:15:47 ais523_: was it just all on one line? or just simply wrapped? 17:15:51 as long as i'm not missing any fun formatting :P 17:16:15 newlines were preserved, it seems 17:16:20 so not particularly fun formatting, just simple wrapping 17:16:38 `addquote [spam] Any flavored hell can pee on the pig pen, but it takes a real football team to throw a slyly optimal formless void at a hole puncher. 17:16:40 248|[spam] Any flavored hell can pee on the pig pen, but it takes a real football team to throw a slyly optimal formless void at a hole puncher. 17:16:50 quotes.db is slowly turning into a fortune database :P 17:16:53 I did snip out the URLs that came before and after it 17:17:14 Any nation can lazily negotiate a prenuptial agreement with a shabby bottle of beer, but it takes a real skyscraper to overwhelmingly give secret financial aid to some cargo bay. 17:17:16 this is just beyond amazing 17:17:17 and something that looks vaguely like MIME encoding, but broken 17:17:53 ais523_: ok, this has to be a person pretending to be a spambot 17:17:54 has to be 17:18:07 "the college-educated cargo bay" 17:18:15 nah, it looks to me like it was generating grammatically-correct sentences recursively 17:18:28 much like interfuzz generates syntactically correct INTERCAL expressions 17:18:37 there's no meaning there, juts a lot of random stuff that parses correctly 17:18:42 ais523_: but they're awesome sentences 17:18:49 the ingenuity is presumably in the provided wordlist 17:19:07 elliott, a lot of "any can but it takes a real to " in that spam 17:19:08 ais523_: I'm totally seeing a dolphin crossing stovepipe boundaries to sell a steam engine to the tornado busy cutting itself. 17:19:22 Vorpal: Indeed. 17:19:42 ais523_: "A diskette from a particle accelerator is fried." <-- this makes sense 17:19:47 Put a diskette in a particle accelerator, shit happens 17:19:58 wow, not only are there two different spamcheckers on the system (thus explaining the [SPAM?] [spam?] in the title), but they both provided a full explanation in the headers 17:20:11 "Any minivan can find subtle faults with the tornado over an inferiority complex, but it takes a real power drill to greedily operate a small fruit stand with a dust bunny beyond the cargo bay." 17:20:13 elliott, 5 or 3 inch? 17:20:28 the main reason for marking it as spam was that the sender was blacklisted 17:20:29 Vorpal: That's a personal question! Also, have you stopped beating your wife? 17:20:38 ais523_: heh 17:20:40 elliott, :P 17:20:46 ais523_: maybe this is spammer's plans to get trusted? 17:20:56 elliott, I meant for the diskette :P 17:20:57 It looks like something generated from a PCFG; one does wonder whether it has been handcrafted or induced, though. 17:21:02 ais523_: fill up inboxes with unique nonsense that nonetheless looks non-spammy, and then start reeling off spam 17:21:07 also, +2.0 total for not being sent from a real name, and for containing text sized to less than 2px 17:21:09 fizzie, PCFG? 17:21:09 Vorpal: You haven't answered my question yet! 17:21:14 elliott, mu 17:21:16 ais523_: wow, not sending from a real name is a penalty? 17:21:24 elliott: 1/5 of the threshold 17:21:28 Vorpal: It's like a context-free grammar but with probabilities for each production. 17:21:32 it wouldn't be nearly enough to bump it over the threshold without other stuff 17:21:35 ais523_: that's crappy 17:21:40 fizzie, hm 17:21:40 :p 17:21:49 I was a little surprised, though 17:22:10 ais523_: WTF of the Day: 17:22:13 DIAGNOSTICS 17:22:13 apt-get returns zero on normal operation, decimal 100 on error. 17:22:39 perhaps that was to make it slightly easier to port to VMS? 17:22:53 ais523_, uh.. it wouldn't would it? 17:23:13 (VMS famously uses even numbers for failure, odd numbers for success; the libc special-cases 0 by swapping it with some other value, but 0 for success, 1 for failure is just wrong on VMS as 1 means something else and it isn't translated) 17:23:25 (this is, incidentally, what the EXIT_FAILURE constant is for) 17:24:05 ais523_: oh, really? 17:24:11 ais523_: I'd better start using it then for all those VMS users! 17:24:17 (Maybe no VMS support is a feature.) 17:24:46 I do sometimes when what I'm writing doesn't have any POSIX in, and I remember 17:25:08 ais523_: No self-respecting C compiler that purported to compile POSIXy sources wouldn't translate, anyway :P 17:25:33 well, who'd dare purport to compile POSIXy sources on VMS? 17:26:01 OTOH, a compiler that simply purported to compile C89 quite possibly wouldn't translate anything but 0, due to EXIT_SUCCESS == 0 being a requirement 17:26:15 ais523_: ha 17:26:23 ais523_: what about the Actually C Shell? 17:26:29 ais523_: in C, returning 0 indicates an error! 17:26:39 no it doesn't 17:26:50 0 = success, >0 = error is standard in nearly all POSIXy stuff 17:26:59 including both programs themselves, and much of the stdlib 17:27:19 (some of the stdlib has <0 = error, >= 0 = success, if they want to give a different piece of info at the same time) 17:28:25 ais523_: well, ok 17:28:29 but if (!foo()) 17:28:33 is very common to check for a libc error 17:28:38 err, no? 17:28:44 if(foo()) is very common to check for a libc error 17:28:46 ais523_: what libc function returns 0 on success? 17:28:50 except when foo() returns a pointer 17:29:01 elliott: all the ones that return errno on failure 17:29:21 ais523_: name a few? I'm not doubting you, it's just that I write things like if (!foo()) all the time 17:29:31 the issue is, I can't remember 17:29:33 io functions, ok, those tend to do freaky stuff 17:29:39 ais523_: I think returning errno is rare. 17:29:43 most of the ones I'm spotchecking tend to return nonnegative on success, negative on failure 17:30:08 ais523_: right 17:30:11 elliott, IO ones are famous for such things indeed. 17:30:14 ais523_: those tend to be IO ones 17:30:16 hmm, mknod(2) returns 0 on success, -1 on error 17:30:23 ais523_: IO 17:30:28 and everyone knows stdio was designed by crack monkeys on crack :) 17:30:33 well, I'm talking about POSIX here 17:30:38 what's in POSIX but not C89, yet isn't IO? 17:30:42 elliott, no, that leaves no words to describe the C++ IO 17:30:59 ais523_: I generally count C as including POSIX because all non-POSIX C platforms are godawful :) 17:31:04 ais523_: Or rather POSIX as including C which it... does. 17:31:07 ais523_: But I don't know. 17:31:07 oh, I see, we're thinking differently 17:31:23 the thing is, most functions which aren't I/O aren't side-effecting 17:31:28 so the only real reason to use them is for their return value 17:31:33 elliott, I coded for pure C platforms quite a lot. 17:31:41 elliott, mostly embedded systems 17:31:42 -!- augur has joined. 17:31:46 embedded systems should not be running C. 17:31:53 at least not if they're *really* embedded 17:32:14 (rather than, say, smartphone-embedded, which means "as fast as a slow desktop PC") 17:32:24 and *those* should probably run posix 17:32:35 ais523_: well, I don't count exit() as IO 17:32:36 elliott, well, RCX, some AVR stuff at university and so on 17:32:54 elliott: and what exactly is the return value of exit()? 17:33:01 that's a pretty bad example for a different reason 17:33:06 ais523_: I wasn't using it as an example. 17:33:12 ais523_: I'm refining my definition of "IO" for you. 17:33:13 I suppose you could argue setjmp/longjmp too 17:33:17 ais523_, um, memcpy, strcpy, strcat, strncat, snprintf, ... 17:33:19 the list goes on 17:33:24 ah, OK 17:33:27 ais523_: basically, if you imagined POSIX merging into C, then anything you could put into stdio.h is IO 17:33:34 things like exit and string.h functions aren't 17:33:39 nor are, say, time functions 17:33:41 Vorpal: memcpy returns a pointer 17:33:52 and likewise for most of the rest of that family 17:33:55 or stdlib.h, either 17:34:02 (snprintf is pretty much I/O) 17:34:02 ais523_, indeed, I just pointed out "non-IO but side-effects" 17:34:19 Vorpal: that's not really side-effects, if it's the main purpose of the function 17:34:33 but I see what you mean in that it's affecting the params, so the return value could be used for something else 17:34:42 that's a different pattern, I think: pointer manipulation returns one of the arguments 17:34:46 ais523_, I thought you meant side effect in the sense of functional programming 17:35:03 where abs() would be side effect free (ignoring the undefined behaviour for INT_MIN) 17:35:14 Vorpal: well, in, say, OCaml, memcpy is side-effect free 17:35:16 ais523_: heh -- you know people who rage at the sight of strlen in a for loop condition? 17:35:19 ais523_, hm 17:35:28 elliott: surely it depends on the context? 17:35:35 ais523_: well, as a way to loop through a string 17:35:37 ais523_: or similar 17:35:49 hmm, well I rage at that sometimes, especially if the string isn't null-terminated 17:35:52 elliott, if the string is modified then it would be utterly stupid 17:35:53 but I know what you mean 17:35:55 ais523_: well, they have a bone to pick with K&R: 17:35:57 ais523_: for (i = 0, j = strlen(s)-1; i -- "reverse", The C Programming Language 17:36:18 elliott: that doesn't have a strlen in the condition 17:36:19 Vorpal: and indeed, s is modified 17:36:20 elliott, you fail :P 17:36:21 in fact, it explicitly caches it 17:36:24 ais523_: oh, lawl 17:36:26 Why is it so reviled? 17:36:26 * elliott can't read 17:36:34 Phantom_Hoover: because it's inefficient 17:36:43 for (i=0; i == 17:36:48 for (i=0; s[i]; i++) 17:36:50 Phantom_Hoover: it makes the loop O(n^2) at least, whereas in most cases it would be O(n) if you cached the length 17:36:53 Phantom_Hoover, it could turn an algorithm from O(n) into O(n²) 17:37:02 ais523_, damn you beat me to it 17:37:04 Phantom_Hoover: and if your compiler doesn't constant-fold strlen(s) -- which it can't always, say if s is modified -- 17:37:12 Phantom_Hoover: then it goes through the string on *every single iteration* 17:37:23 elliott, of if *s is modified 17:37:26 (gcc will move the strlen code outside the loop in most cases, but this is still less inefficient) 17:37:29 Vorpal: you know, I would get annoyed at that sentence, but it isn't even grammatically correct, and thus meaningless 17:37:31 Vorpal: well i was considering s as a char[] here. 17:37:39 ais523_: "damn, you beat me to it" 17:37:44 elliott: I know 17:37:48 ais523_: also, do you get angry at "damn you" just to have something to be angry about? :) 17:37:52 ais523_, XD 17:37:53 try expanding the abbreviations, it doesn't come to anything 17:38:05 what abbreviation? 17:38:09 elliott: no, I get angry at it because it's offensive, even if it isn't meant that way 17:38:14 what abbreviation? 17:38:17 elliott: well, not exactly abbreviation 17:38:20 but "damn" is a transitive verb 17:38:20 ais523_, it was a missing comma after damn indeed 17:38:25 ais523_: MONKEY DAMN YOU ARTICHOKE VELVETY MISTRANSLATION 17:38:28 thus it makes no sense using it as a clause 17:38:28 ais523_: also meaningless 17:38:36 Vorpal: well i was considering s as a char[] here. <-- ah okay, not as a char* then 17:38:39 ais523_: wow, you are such a prescriptivist 17:38:47 Vorpal: or as a char *; K&R used "char s[]" as the argument to reverse 17:38:53 Vorpal: hooray autoconversion 17:39:13 elliott, well, modifying s = s++ or such to me. modifying *s would mean changing the value it points to 17:39:14 hmm, I'm reminded of Hofstatder's sentence "this sentence has cabbage six words" 17:39:31 Vorpal: modifying s[] :P 17:39:34 Vorpal: perhaps it's an in-place reverse 17:39:41 elliott, I guess I have worked too much with frama-c recently, it makes that distinction 17:39:56 ais523_, uh... ? 17:39:58 ais523_: Envelope damn you to hell axiom. 17:40:02 ais523_: HOW FAR CAN I GO 17:40:04 ais523_, wrt the cabbage that is 17:40:17 Vorpal: you're missing the point 17:40:32 ais523_: (Note: correct parsing is "Envelope, damn you; to hell, axiom!".) 17:40:33 ais523_, oh. right. then that makes meta-sense 17:40:42 elliott: oh wow, that does actually parse 17:40:49 ais523_: UNINTENTIONALLY, I assure you 17:41:19 ais523_: I take it back anyway just to avoid any even greyish pigments on your pure white soul 17:41:47 elliott, err are you claiming that "Envelope damn you to hell axiom." does parse as it is written there? 17:42:12 It's obviously "envelope, damn you; to hell, axiom". 17:42:17 elliott, well yes 17:42:20 OBVIOUSLY 17:42:28 elliott, well the ; is not that *obvious* 17:42:31 "This sentence contains one nonstandard English flutzpah" 17:42:33 but the commas are 17:42:49 Envelope-damn you to hell-axiom. 17:42:57 ais523_: You've got some nonstandard English chutzpah. 17:43:04 "This sentence contains multiple nonsklarkish English flutzpahs, but the overall pluggandzip can be glorked from context" 17:43:06 fizzie, hah 17:43:18 Hofstatder was so good at confusing self-referential sentences... 17:43:24 It refers to Mr. Envelope's Damn-You-to-Hell Axiom. 17:43:57 interesting seeing these alternative interpretations 17:44:16 Jargon File puts that as "This gubblick contains many nonsklarkish English flutzpahs, but the overall pluggandisp can be glorked [sic] from context", since it's in the entry for 'glark' and it says 'glork' there. 17:44:28 ais523_, it is made easier by "glorked" being quite near "gorked" 17:44:32 err 17:44:37 groked* 17:44:46 fizzie: Cheap plastic imitation of the Jargon File, or the Jargon File? 17:44:50 Gorky'd. 17:44:56 (Note: rms maintains the cheap plastic imitation of the Jargon File.) 17:44:56 fizzie: well, you wouldn't expect me to have it exactly memorised, would you? 17:45:06 elliott: did you just muddle esr and rms? 17:45:10 elliott, I thought it was esr that did? 17:45:12 Er, yes. 17:45:13 *esr 17:45:17 hahaha 17:45:22 It's three lowercase letters; same person! 17:45:23 Any TLA is good enough. 17:45:41 fizzie: http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/mundane-name 17:45:50 * ais523_ wonders what sort of hatred you engender from what sort of fanboy for mixing up those two 17:46:08 elliott, next you will confuse rms and djb. And that will be a sad dauy 17:46:09 day* 17:46:18 Anyway, yes, I quoted "that" version: it's the one that googles fastests. 17:46:22 Vorpal: I vow to commit seppuku if that ever happens. 17:46:27 elliott, good 17:46:36 [ais523_ suddenly gets irrationally worried] 17:46:41 elliott: do you actually own a wakizashi? 17:46:46 XD 17:46:48 ais523_: I can always obtain one! 17:46:53 If the need arises. 17:46:59 indeed it is jwz who maintains the REAL jargon file (in his pluggandzip) 17:47:02 ais523_, you are apparently quite predictable :D 17:47:15 cpressey: wat 17:47:17 elliott, what if you mix up djb and jwz? 17:47:17 Vorpal: most people are 17:47:21 Vorpal: no, that was not what i expected 17:47:23 ais523_, well yes 17:47:24 i expected "please don't" 17:47:30 elliott, ah 17:47:31 Vorpal: well djb and jwz are both cool 17:47:34 so no biggie 17:47:34 elliott: any tla 17:47:46 elliott: see, I have two separate predictable responses to that statement 17:47:49 cpressey: DUDE #rho 17:47:53 so you can at least have the fun of guessing which I'll use 17:48:01 ais523_: I don't think your other response was predictable; it was not worrying. 17:48:07 Hmm...idea. 17:48:12 elliott, so as long as none of {esr,rms} are confused with {djb,jwz} you will not commit seppuku? 17:48:17 Esolang using only four-letter words. 17:48:18 Vorpal: Whatever :P 17:48:23 It would be poetic and nice, mostly. 17:48:24 evincar: Four long talk. 17:48:32 evincar: that's just an esolang with 26^4 instructions max 17:48:35 what's so interesting? 17:48:37 ais523_: Or as we say in our department, you have a bimodal prior for the response. 17:48:48 evincar: It is more fun as a talk that you have to say out loud. 17:48:49 cpressey: Are you saying that's a good name for it, or that it already exists? 17:48:51 ais523_: I would, however, be very good at the Assign Names to a Random Snippet of Text From #esoteric Semi-Recently (e.g. 2007 onwards?) 17:49:06 ais523_: Where I only get, e.g. #1, #2 and #3 to represent each participant and I have to assign names to each of them. 17:49:21 elliott: Additional restrictions would make it more interesting. 17:49:24 ais523_: Some people make that game super-easy though, e.g. zzo38 and oklopol :) 17:49:26 Which reminds me of a recent fun one: http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive/phd102010s.gif 17:49:34 elliott, esolangs using only 1-bit instructions 17:49:36 evincar: Four Long Talk is the name of a talk that ... does be... in my mind. 17:49:48 hm 17:49:55 BCT right? 17:49:56 elliott: that would be an interesting game, I think 17:49:59 Four or Less Long may be a more good way to name this talk. 17:50:00 Vorpal: quite a lot 17:50:09 cpressey: Forlorntalk 17:50:19 hmm, did I mention Sansology in here yet? I think I did, but without a lot of detail 17:50:21 ais523_: yes, I think so too; I'm going to code it when I get botte going 17:50:23 evincar: A long time ago, me and a guy who I knew made it up. 17:50:30 ais523_: since it'll have the appropriate semantic logging machinery to do it easily :) 17:50:31 sansology? 17:50:32 cpressey: Less than four, your talk. Mine just four. 17:50:41 evincar: Your talk much more hard. 17:50:47 elliott: it's like a cross between 1L and Sansism 17:50:55 Mine very much more hard, true. 17:51:38 2D language with a BF-like tape, two commands: G rotates the IP left if the current tape element isn't 0, not-G corresponds to the BF commands + - < > going up down left right respectively 17:51:42 cpressey: Have you seen the page of atom in four? 17:51:46 cpressey: http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/txt/al.html 17:51:53 Vorpal: quite a lot <-- hm? 17:51:57 (of atom, adj. of physics) 17:52:01 or even 17:52:02 elliott: Yes. And of [relativity] 17:52:05 (of atom, n. of physics) 17:52:08 if the IP starts at the top-left going downwards, and the tape is bignum and initialised to 1 everywhere, I think it's TC, although am not completely sure 17:52:12 cpressey: See, I didn't cheat like you! :P 17:52:21 cpressey: "page of atom" -> "physics page" 17:52:33 not implemented yet or even specced, but who cares, it's tarpitty enough that that description's all you need 17:52:36 [cheat] 17:53:08 elliott: That's quite an entertaining read. It also has good rhythm, as a four-letter word can only be at most two syllables. 17:53:22 cpressey: I say that with five dots to the word, [this would be much easier] 17:53:34 evincar: It would be nice to see Tom Lehrer do it. 17:53:48 More easy it will be. Less Yoda like. 17:53:57 hmm, how can people ask me about a lang, then not react at all when I tell them? 17:53:57 "Okay, yes, it's a dumb idea, but just go with it." <-- this would be one of the spoken bits 17:54:00 it's kind-of disappointing 17:54:05 ais523_: I didn't notice it yet 17:54:14 ah 17:54:20 ais523_: I tend to mentally filter out only relevant comments when there's activity I'm participating in and then go back 17:54:27 hmm, interesting 17:54:28 so as not to be too slow to reply 17:54:33 Gone to get... food at the mid part of the day. (Blah!) 17:54:36 I tend to just participate in both conversations simultaneously 17:54:38 2D language with a BF-like tape, two commands: G rotates the IP left if the current tape element isn't 0, not-G corresponds to the BF commands + - < > going up down left right respectively 17:54:42 this already exists, I think 17:54:44 or at least *very* closely 17:54:54 elliott: yep, 1L 17:55:00 right 17:55:08 ais523_: presumably G is ascii 32 i.e. space 17:55:10 I was trying to make 1L's instruction set a bit more logical 17:55:12 otherwise it's fugly 17:55:29 you could just use the 1L convention of "whatever's in the topleft of the program is one command" 17:55:32 ais523_: or perhaps G is the char 17:55:41 but G == G is what Sansism does 17:55:48 ais523_: and then not-G can be space 17:55:56 ais523_: G should be * i think, since it looks like an arrow pointing in all directions :) 17:56:05 G is meant to look like a clockwise arrow 17:56:24 (if it doesn't, blame Safalra, not me) 17:56:24 catseye: Mid time food? Ah yes, at noon. 17:56:32 ais523_: it... yeah no :P 17:56:55 it looks very like that in some fonts (IIRC The Impossible Quiz exploited that at one point) 17:57:12 ais523_: you enabled *Flash* to play that? 17:57:17 ais523_: or just heard about it? :p 17:57:26 oh, I don't /play/ it 17:57:31 ais523_: how did I guess 17:57:51 and actually, I do have Flash enabled, I just use an entirely separate browser for it 17:58:04 it's the only real way to prevent it completely dominating an attempt to use the Web normally 17:58:27 (locked down Firefox, non-locked-down Epiphany) 17:59:02 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:59:08 ais523_: Why not use U+2940, anticlockwise closed circle arrow? 17:59:31 evincar: presumably Safalra wanted to keep the code easy to parse 17:59:31 (Massive delay due to looking up character.) 17:59:35 and involving Unicode is not that 18:00:13 It is reasonable to require a particular encoding for source files. 18:00:24 And even just supporting UTF-8 and UTF-16 would be reasonable. 18:00:30 evincar: or you could just use bytes 18:00:37 and have 30 fewer lines of code 18:00:42 and have people actually program in it due to it not being hellish to do so 18:01:17 meh, just use Emacs or something and write a sansism-mode that maps g to C-q 2 9 4 0 RET 18:01:32 lawl 18:01:34 Hellish isn't so much of an issue for me. Usability sort of goes out the window when considering esoteric languages. If it's usable, then bully. If not, well, I hadn't got my hopes up. 18:01:39 (note: C-q in Emacs is annoying, it defaults to octal, most sane people customise it) 18:01:40 ais523_: esolang programs are rare enough :) 18:01:53 elliott: I have an esolangs.el on my laptop somwhere 18:01:58 I'm pretty sure I've posted it to this channel before 18:02:09 I know. 18:02:11 I used it once. 18:02:13 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Abandonando). 18:02:33 elliott: Once as in once upon a time, or once as in one time? 18:02:57 heh, it wasn't even me who originally wrote intercal.el (or intercal.vim) 18:02:58 (*Multiple times upon a time?) 18:03:03 evincar: both 18:04:00 "once upon a time" is one of those phrases which defies the normal rules of grammar 18:04:03 elliott: You remind me of how dangerous it can be to ask a computer scientist "or". 18:04:14 evincar: not really, i just answered the truth 18:04:38 elliott: I know, but I'm allowed to associate freely. 18:04:39 it isn't "computer scientists" who do that, or at least if it is it's just CS morons pretending they know anything about formal logic 18:04:46 it's mostly just irritating people who don't have anything interesting to say :p 18:04:55 elliott: what if you're incredibly pedantic, and also happen to be a computer scientist? 18:04:57 ais523_: Japanese just has "mukashimukashi", meaning basically "in the past". 18:05:04 s/you're/I'm/ 18:05:05 ais523_: then you know that in language, or means XOR 18:05:07 ais523_: not OR 18:05:12 ais523_: either that, or list elements 18:05:15 (in a multiple-choice question) 18:05:16 it doesn't actually mean either 18:05:26 ais523_: well, it means XOR but you can subvert it with "both" 18:05:30 -!- Slereah has joined. 18:05:32 it creates a sort of ternary logic which includes "both" 18:05:36 ais523_: well, right 18:05:41 ais523_: but whatever it is, "yes" is never the answer 18:05:43 True, false, file not found. 18:05:44 (this is around the time that I mention that VHDL has 9 different logic levels) 18:05:59 elliott: what about a yes-or-no question? 18:06:15 ais523_: aaaaargh, stop it 18:06:17 also, with evincar around, I've discovered that my finger-memory uses a one-letter completion for "elliott" and "ehird" 18:06:18 ais523_: you know what i mean 18:06:28 ais523_: you're "ai" 18:06:31 and have had to correct the tab-complete a lot 18:06:38 elliott: I nearly always do do two chars before completing 18:06:42 evincar is ev, it seems 18:06:47 perhaps the issue is that e and l are at opposite ends of the keyboard 18:06:48 Slereah is Sl 18:06:56 Vorpal is Vo 18:06:58 hmm, is your tab-complete case-sensitive? 18:06:58 cpressey is cp 18:07:00 I sense a pattern 18:07:09 ais523_: hmm, no 18:07:14 ais523_: perhaps i don't always capitalise it 18:07:14 Yeah, two characters is my minimum. 18:07:19 ais523_: introspection is impossible, dammit! stop it :) 18:07:38 Sometimes I find it unfortunate that I can't tab-complete long words while writing in English. 18:07:47 you and everyone else 18:07:50 except for me 18:07:59 Although editors can make your life easier. i18n^J, anyone? 18:07:59 a cool IRC client would display these unique prefixes on request 18:08:02 evincar: time me: 18:08:02 evincar: so do I; I actually change nick for that reason on occasion 18:08:06 antidisestablishmentarianism 18:08:09 evincar: time me again: 18:08:11 antidisestablishmentarianism 18:08:14 evincar: time me a final time: 18:08:17 antidisestablishmentarianism 18:08:25 * elliott checks clog 18:08:31 ais523_: seriously? :D 18:08:35 elliott: hmm... can you type that word faster or slower than you can copy-paste it? 18:08:41 elliott: I've done it in this channel before now 18:08:48 but I can answer both yes and no to your question 18:08:52 ais523_: so, copy it and paste it after I press enter here? 18:08:53 antidisestablishmentarianism 18:08:56 i used the mouse though 18:09:06 yes, in that I was serious in that I change nick for that reason on occasion, no, in that every time I have done the change I wasn't serious 18:09:14 so, observation: it takes me about three seconds to type antidisestablishmentarianism and hit enter 18:09:18 four seconds when i'm not prepared 18:09:22 that's pretty good if you ask me 18:09:26 indeed 18:09:27 I'm going to try for the record: 18:09:29 whoops 18:09:34 false start :D 18:09:35 I'm going to try for the record: 18:09:38 antidsiestablishemtnarismn 18:09:39 ouch 18:09:42 this is not my word 18:09:43 hey, "whoops" is much shorter than "antidisestablishmentarianism" 18:09:50 Okay, let's try again. 18:09:52 antidisestablkuishemntanraism 18:09:54 jesus christ 18:09:58 also, I spent a couple of seconds there correcting typos 18:10:10 * elliott ok: 18:10:13 (strange that I initially typed "connecting" there) 18:10:14 urgh 18:10:16 * elliott ok: 18:10:19 antidisestablishmentariannsnim 18:10:20 aww 18:10:21 so close 18:10:30 three seconds all the same, though 18:10:32 * elliott ok: 18:10:35 antidisestablishmentariasnnism 18:10:43 wow, i am terrible at this 18:10:48 -- 18:10:50 antidisetsablishmentarianism 18:10:53 i giveu p 18:10:55 *give up 18:11:15 heh, I do better when I'm not watching the screen for some reason 18:11:39 I'm on my laptop, so I'm not even going to try. 18:11:44 so am i (but i have a keyboard) 18:11:46 fop: 18:11:47 Give me a Model M and I'll beat any of you. 18:11:48 antidisestablishmentarianssims 18:11:52 fop: 18:11:54 antidisetsblishmentarianism 18:11:57 awww 18:11:57 fop: 18:12:00 antidisetsbalishmentarianism 18:12:02 :| 18:12:03 fop: 18:12:05 antidisetsablishmentarianism 18:12:09 fop: 18:12:11 antidisetwsabolishmentarianism 18:12:12 harder to read than write antidisestablishmentarianism apparently 18:12:13 oh jesus 18:12:48 Whelp, time to move. 18:12:52 hmm, I actually like my keys to have hardly any travel 18:12:57 -!- evincar has quit (Quit: All bee bark.). 18:12:59 this desktop keyboard, they go down a bit too far 18:13:51 I suppose it's a consequence of using laptops for ages 18:16:41 ais523_: there's a lot more to travel than one figure 18:17:01 well, I suppose so 18:17:17 but can I not give a nontechnical viewpoint on something? 18:17:20 ais523_: there's how much you can physically press the key down until it hits the bottom, there's how much you need to press until the key gets send to the computer, and on a tactile keyboard, there's how much you need to press before it pushes back (usually shortly after the key actuates) 18:17:29 ais523_: well, it's actually important :) 18:17:36 for usage 18:18:05 before I spent a couple of years with a laptop, I spent years hotdesking 18:18:17 so I'm even more used to using whatever settings the computer I'm on happens to have 18:18:23 (I suppose this is why I like sane defaults) 18:18:50 * elliott tries to think whether leaden will have any configuration 18:18:51 don't think so! 18:19:03 except maybe indentation width. *maybe* 18:19:18 Let's play the GUESS HOW RETARDED JAVASCRIPT IS GAME! 18:19:19 8, no exceptions 18:19:24 var x = 3; x.y = 4; 18:19:26 ais523_: even when using spaces? 18:19:30 Gregor: yep, works 18:19:33 1) Does this crash? 2) If not, what is the value of x.y? 18:19:38 oh, don't you just type those by hand? 18:19:42 Gregor: (1) no (2) 3? 18:19:45 ais523_: and you know that I vehemently disagree with you on tabs 18:19:45 elliott: Just had a bug in our instrumentation framework related to this, made me remember :P 18:19:51 elliott: Nope, undefined! 18:19:55 ais523_: so you're just trolling 18:20:00 Gregor: my next guess was 42 18:20:02 well, perhaps 18:20:03 Gregor: then "the window object" 18:20:04 X-D 18:20:23 Gregor: then "the exception that should be thrown when you assign a property to a number" 18:20:28 :P 18:20:29 but there's a genuine question here: say you're using 2-space indentation (for whatever reason), and your editor knows it; you want to indent a level, do you type space space or tab? 18:20:45 I WANT BRAUN AW20 WIRSTWATCH! 18:20:47 ais523_: depends on the editor 18:20:47 ais523_: Usually, my editor automatically indents at the start of a block for me so I don't have to type anything. 18:20:50 ais523_: But in that case, I'd type tab. 18:21:02 Tab-the-key means "indent this". 18:21:04 ais523_: and the text 18:21:05 Tab-the-character means flamewar. 18:21:09 Space-the-character means flamewar. 18:21:13 Space-the-key means "put a space in". 18:21:30 vertical tabs forever, man 18:21:38 I seem to only use tab-the-key in Emacs to mean "recalculate this line's indentation", as that's what it means there; when typing indentation by hand, I tend to use space 18:21:54 partly because it's a pain to keep adjusting editor settings for different tab widths 18:22:14 (when editing other people's code, you want to keep to their spacing conventions) 18:22:20 ais523_: In the previous version of leaden, tab did different things depending where in the line you were :) 18:22:23 Gregor: that's not retarded, it's dynamic! Integer values are "black hole containers". 18:22:49 elliott: interesting issue: some of the code I edit (NetHack, C-INTERCAL, etc.) is generally written with the indent=4 spaces, 2 indents=1 tab convention 18:22:56 and yet I change it entirely to spaces when I edit things 18:23:04 elliott: You've just inspired me to change JavaScript. It's famous for basically never crashing (but instead causing crazy behavior); we can make this even more true by just replacing undefined with the window object! 18:23:12 ais523_: That's "emacs indentation". 18:23:13 I'm trying to figure out whose philosophies I'm violating here 18:23:16 ais523_: It is *pure, liquid evil*. 18:23:21 ais523_: (what nethack does) 18:23:38 I refuse to get involved in this discussion on tabs because everyone else is wrong. 18:23:40 hmm, is it really Emacs' fault? I wouldn't be surprised if Hack predated Emacs 18:23:40 Not only does it make incorrect assumptions about tab -- I'm not interested ais523_, you're wrong, and besides it means "move to next 8-column", not "8 spaces", even historically -- 18:23:48 But it also wastes space in the file with spaces for no apparent reason at all, 18:23:54 and completely misses the reason for using tabs (adjustable indentation). 18:23:56 And it's just... 18:23:58 elliott: I agree with the move to next 8-column 18:23:58 Everybody hates it. 18:24:00 Seriously. 18:24:06 It is the one thing everyone in the spaces/tabs flamewar agrees on. 18:24:07 and the reason for using tabs is to make tables line up on a typewriter 18:24:08 Emacs indentation is just lol. 18:24:21 (in QBASIC, tab = move to a multiple of 12, or was it 14?) 18:24:25 ais523_: http://www.emacswiki.org/pics/static/TabsSpacesBoth.png 18:24:27 ais523_: (relevant comic) 18:24:31 If it only ever meant "move to next 8-column" and everyone knew that and respected it and didn't change it, it would be acceptable. 18:24:34 However. 18:24:42 ais523_: and that's on *emacswiki* 18:24:52 cpressey: it shouldn't mean that 18:24:57 cpressey: that's what it means in all of GNU coreutils 18:25:04 elliott: It is only ever meant YOUR MO- 18:25:10 *If it 18:25:11 (I was reading the docs for those recently) 18:25:13 cpressey: the whole purpose of using tabs in a modern area -- and ais523_ just don't even bother replying, I'm uninterested -- is to mean "N spaces", where N is configurable as you desire 18:25:22 cpressey: not only does tab then mean "1 block of indentation", 18:25:26 cpressey: it's flexible too 18:25:33 and again, ais523_, totally not interested in a flamewar 18:25:35 elliott: what does tab in the middle of a line mean? 18:25:40 ais523_: it means you're a moron 18:25:43 elliott: So then it's a shitty form of RLE for text files. Not interested. 18:25:44 ais523_: (not you specifically) 18:25:55 cpressey: Way to ignore half of my argument. 18:25:59 "one is a moron", I imagine 18:26:06 ais523_: that's what i was thinking about typing :p 18:26:18 elliott: You seemed to miss all of mine. 18:26:41 cpressey: I get elliott's point: the idea is that you treat tabs like HTML elements, and the editor like CSS 18:26:47 ais523_: ...??? 18:26:53 which would be OK, I suppose, if the world worked like that 18:26:56 ais523_: stop trying to argue for an argument you disagree with it makes no sense at all 18:27:07 cpressey: the whole point is that it has literally no disadvantages over spaces; it's backwards-compatible with bad tools (they just show it as 8-column moves or 8 spaces or whatever), and in almost every modern editor you can set it to, say, four. 18:27:21 elliott: well, the concept of tabs as semantically delimiting a block, and having a separate method of saying how to represent that onscreen 18:27:25 cpressey: Over this, spaces... are less flexible for no reason and take up more space in the file for no reason. (yes filesize is irrelevant, but come on) 18:27:28 The disadvantage is that tabs look different to different people. 18:27:40 Making text files that include them look different to different people. 18:27:40 cpressey: I presume you mandate code be viewed in a certain font, too? 18:27:53 And ban everyone from reformatting it and then formatting back when editing? 18:28:02 elliott: well, what would your opinion be of someone who formatted code with Comic Sans? 18:28:08 Probably tabs won't work in a modern idiotic corporate environment. 18:28:14 Thankfully I don't give a shit about such environments. 18:28:23 ais523_: if their code is good, they're just crazy; otherwise, they're an idiot 18:28:38 If whoever had first decided that ASCII needed a tab character had refrained from doing so, this conversation would not be happening :P 18:28:49 I know there are some good coders who advocate a non-monospaced font for coding 18:28:51 Gregor: and we'd be worse-off 18:29:08 I'm not interested in a flamewar, I'm just trying to fight off the idiotic ignorance that has set in after spaces somehow won 18:29:15 really, code needs a sort of general depythonisation 18:29:24 as in, replace indentation with increase-indent, decrease-indent chars 18:29:31 that'd make it diff much better, for one thing 18:29:47 ais523_: really code needs to stop being stored as bytes 18:29:57 I do appreciate Python's attempt to remove redundancy between the braces and indentation 18:30:00 (I'm unconvinced on the benefits of AST editing, but c'mon, you don't have to store it like that.) 18:30:07 but it'd have been better to do it via removing indentation, than via removing braces 18:30:23 a sufficiently good editor should be able to reconstruct the indentation for editing purposes 18:30:35 ais523_: do you know how to feed apt-get/aptitude a text file instead of arguments? 18:30:40 I, uh, argument list limit. 18:30:56 elliott: IIRC there is a way, but this computer runs CentOS so I can't read the manpage 18:31:19 would using @ then a filename work? that's the usual workaround on DOS, some UNIX programs picked it up too 18:31:38 elliott: I was only pointing out a disadvantage, to correct your statement that there were no disadvantages. Not "mandating" anything. 18:32:00 cpressey: I'm saying that the disadvantage isn't. 18:32:15 Files look different to different people! Indeed! But it's still indented properly, so what does it matter? 18:32:30 And if they're the type to configure their editor, they'll see it in the indentation width they like, too. Kittens for everyone. 18:32:38 elliott: Two megabytes of arguments should be enough for everyone. (getconf ARG_MAX here.) 18:32:43 Yes, perhaps some idiots with stupid editors will edit it and get the formatting badly, but they shouldn't be coding anyway. 18:32:46 elliott: if you don't know the indentation width readers will use, how can you prevent lines getting longer than 80 characters? 18:32:53 fizzie: Yeah, I think it was another issue I had. 18:33:24 I mean, some programs even have blocks nested 10 deep, reading that with less or something would mean that the line didn't even start on the screen 18:33:24 ais523_: You can't. The best you can do is getting it 80 or under with an 8-width tab. But honestly, 80 characters is beyond outdated. Even vim can wrap text nicely now. 18:33:36 ais523_: And you can always use a tiny perl oneliner to do it for you if you're really using a physical vt100. 18:33:40 ais523_: Programs shouldn't have blocks nested 10 deep. 18:33:50 that doesn't change the fact that sometimes they do 18:33:55 fizzie: 18:33:56 elliott@dinky:~$ sudo aptitude install -- $(cat packages) 18:33:56 elliott@dinky:~$ 18:34:05 fizzie: packages is a \n-separated list of packages in debian 18:34:08 ais523_: Irrelevant. 18:34:08 and wrapping text changes the meaning if you have to-end-of-line comments 18:34:12 ais523_: Such programs should be refactored. 18:34:23 ais523_: I am uninterested in arguing about the formatting of badly-formatted programs. 18:34:26 and wrapping text changes the meaning if you have to-end-of-line comments 18:34:31 not if you provide an indicator in the gutter or similar 18:34:34 like emacs does 18:34:36 and probably vim too 18:35:33 beh, how do you insert beyond the last character of a line in vim? 18:35:44 ais523_: A 18:35:48 it's making it unreasonably difficult, as you can't move the cursor there 18:35:53 ais523_: but, uh, nice wrapping isn't enabled by default in vim 18:35:54 ais523_: err 18:35:55 ais523_: $a 18:35:57 ais523_: is another way 18:35:58 and it's ridiculously unvimlike to need a separate command 18:36:01 i inserts at point, a inserts after point 18:36:03 ais523_: A = $a 18:36:05 hmm, OK 18:36:10 ais523_: it's just a shortcut 18:36:26 ais523_: consider the duality ^i $a 18:36:32 anyway, no "text wrapped" indication as far as I can tell 18:36:36 elliott: hmm, reasonable 18:36:43 ais523_: also ^a $i which insert at start-but-one and end-but-one 18:36:44 except that I don't see why i and a aren't the same command 18:36:46 historical reasons? 18:36:50 ais523_: i inserts at point, a inserts after point 18:36:52 insert vs. append 18:36:56 no, design reasons 18:37:02 they behave differently, for a reason 18:37:09 ais523_: you can't move the cursor beyond the end of line because there's no character there 18:37:09 point's always in two places one character apart? 18:37:16 in normal mode the cursor is always on a character 18:37:19 ais523_: no 18:37:23 what if your document has no characters? 18:37:25 ais523_: "a" inserts after the cursor 18:37:36 ais523_: that doesn't mean the cursor's in a different place 18:37:42 ais523_: any more than / means that the cursor is everywhere at once 18:37:46 what if your document has no characters? 18:37:49 it always has one \n :) 18:37:59 hmm, well maybe not 18:38:03 (after testing in vim) 18:38:05 I know, I'm just pointing out that thinking of the cursor as being on one individual character, rather than in one location between characters, is a bit of a weird design decision 18:38:10 because it needs special cases 18:38:14 ais523_: not really 18:38:16 you can't even put the cursor on a \n in vim 18:38:18 ais523_: it makes using vim nicer 18:38:19 despite it being a character 18:38:29 because vim is line-oriented 18:38:37 well, *vi 18:38:43 probably even *ed 18:38:46 a cursor on a character is a selection 18:38:48 ais523_: remember, it's ed-extended plus graphical 18:38:52 indeed 18:38:54 cpressey: not in vim afaik 18:38:57 *vi 18:39:03 sort of in ex, I guess 18:39:10 the concept of vi is a good one, and the way it was adapted to vim also good (although a little dubious in places) 18:39:17 but some of the historical hiccups are annoying 18:39:50 ais523_: a is not a historical hiccup! 18:39:53 a is intentional design 18:40:06 ais523_: sometimes I think you troll intentionally... 18:40:11 anyway, after finally managing to write multiple lines of text, it seems vim doesn't indicate that a line's wrapped at all 18:40:21 "a is a special case!" "No, it's by design." "[ignores you, continues complaining about a being a special case]" 18:40:25 elliott: I'm pretty good at unintentional trolling 18:40:27 anyway, after finally managing to write multiple lines of text, it seems vim doesn't indicate that a line's wrapped at all 18:40:28 by default 18:40:30 I *told* you that 18:40:31 right at the start 18:40:33 normally, when I really want to like something, but nevertheless don't 18:40:35 but you didn't listen# 18:40:38 s/#$// 18:40:52 as for you claiming it's by design, I've seen no evidence of that, nor an obvious reason 18:41:00 anyway, it does 18:41:04 try line movement chars on the wrapped line 18:41:05 or ^ and $ 18:41:08 ^ and $ being more reasonable 18:41:24 no visual indication 18:41:28 ais523_: by default 18:41:37 * elliott is uninterested in this circular conversation; refuses to reply further 18:41:46 elliott: here's one for you, then: why are dh and dl asymmetrical? 18:42:00 dh deletes the char before the cursor, dl deletes the char under the cursor 18:42:21 ais523_: I white-lied when I said the cursor is on a character, the cursor is actually between two characters, i think 18:42:23 ais523_: Because 'd' mirrored is 'b' and 'h' has a little line drawn off the backwards 'l' 18:42:26 *I 18:42:33 yes, indeed 18:42:39 ais523_: it is before the highlighted character 18:42:54 ais523_: "set showbreak=x" will put 'x' -- typically in a different color -- in front of lines that are wrapped continuations of the previous line; but I'm not sure if there's anything to indicate it at the end of the line. 18:43:20 elliott: that's what I was suggesting would make more sense; in which case, why can't you put the cursor after the last character (when not in insert mode, which you shouldn't be in if you're moving the cursor)? 18:43:36 ais523_: because there's no character after it to be the character that dl would delete 18:43:40 ais523_: it can't be before nothing! 18:43:54 (empty file *is* a special case, I think, but an unimportant one; I'd have to check nvi source to be sure) 18:43:56 dl should probably delete the newline in that context 18:44:01 ais523_: newline isn't part of the line 18:44:03 vi is line-oriented 18:44:05 there are no newlines 18:44:09 only a list of lines 18:44:20 ais523_: this is also why you can't backspace beyond a line by default in vim 18:44:27 (you can make it with a config option that everyone uses) 18:44:42 ais523_: try it; iabc[n]def[backspace past def] 18:44:49 where [n] is newline 18:45:06 hmm, I don't see any reason to doubt you on that 18:45:18 I mean, I'm not disputing the reasons, just the reasons for the reasons 18:45:18 apart from my general untrustworthiness? :) 18:45:56 speaking of vi, % is really nice and leaden should really have it and holy shit my laptop isn't plugged in 18:45:57 ais523_: Also, ":set virtualedit=onemore" to make it possible to move the cursor to that magical place. It may make other things break, though. 18:46:43 (Also not very 'vi'ish.) 18:47:09 * elliott wonders what to bind % to in leaden 18:47:15 the vi %, that is 18:47:27 is leaden an editor you're writing? 18:47:44 ais523_: leaden's an editor i wrote and then lost 18:47:55 and now i'm trying to find the code and becoming increasingly resigned to the fact that i'm going to have to rewrite it 18:48:07 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 18:48:11 ais523_: it had nice features, like no save function 18:48:25 that'sa feature? 18:48:33 ais523_: yes (note: it still saves files) 18:48:39 oh, did it constantsave with backups? 18:48:50 ais523_: constantsave without backups; you use a VCS 18:48:55 ais523_: which is also why Ctrl+S means "VCS commit" 18:49:00 aha 18:49:01 ais523_: (prompting you for the summary) 18:49:06 ais523_: it's a VCS-usage motivator :) 18:49:13 it also supports using it with a terminal 18:49:15 ... eww. 18:49:18 since you can test changes immediately 18:49:28 Gregor: why does everyone think they're the target market for my software? 18:49:28 hmm, how would that work with git? the staging area would seem to screw things up 18:49:31 you aren't. deal with it 18:49:46 ais523_: eh? you edit the file in your working copy, and it saves it automatically 18:49:48 it'd work pretty amazingly with scapegoat, though, if I ever get round to writing it 18:49:50 then when you're happy, Ctrl+S 18:49:54 which commits 18:49:58 elliott: Why are you mentioning it here if the only person you want comments from is you? 18:50:06 Gregor: note "ais523_:" 18:50:12 TOUCHE SIR 18:50:15 elliott: I mean, what would control-S do? stage, then commit? what if you have another file edited at the time? what if you have anoher file staged? 18:50:15 * Gregor goes back to paying no attention :P 18:50:17 Gregor: perhaps if "... eww" had any reasoning I would reply to it, but, it didn't 18:50:26 ais523_: It would just run "git commit" with your summary. 18:50:33 ais523_: but yes, if you have edited other files they'll be committed too 18:50:37 ais523_: it does have backups in a way, anyway 18:50:42 it has unlimited undo 18:50:46 and the undo persists across program invocations 18:50:54 that'd be kind of pointless, given that if you're just doing "git commit" then the file you just edited isn't actually committed 18:50:55 (it's saved in ~/.cache/ or whatever the directory is these days) 18:51:05 ais523_: git commit -a 18:51:06 you get the idea 18:51:10 ais523_: or possibly just git commit file 18:51:16 I'll have to see which is more useful in practice before I decide 18:51:19 *practise 18:51:34 I need a different tool 18:51:39 what would make scapegoat really work amazingly would be if it was integrated with the editor so that it actually knew what, say, had been copied, etc., so it could do merges correctly 18:51:46 ais523_: probably more likely -a, since you shouldn't really commit to anything you're doing if you can't run it locally and have it work 18:51:46 and the editor could just use it as undo info 18:51:52 (which might be why you don't want -a, only one file works) 18:51:53 I don't know what it is yet, but it's something between a "file explorer" and grep 18:52:00 it's a fractal VCS, in that it changes are made out of lumps of smaller changes 18:52:28 and eventually you get down to the level of "this addition of the string 'hello' was made by adding 'h' 'e' 'l' 'l' 'o'" 18:52:35 cpressey: graphical clicky file list with backwards/forwards/up functions and also a small terminal underneath that lets you select files and have them become part of the argument list, or if you type * e.g. all the files in the upper pane are highlighted? 18:52:38 that's something i've wanted a while 18:52:41 *wanted for a while 18:52:49 although it probably still does diffs at line granularity, because below that merging gets really counterintuitive sometimes 18:52:55 ais523_: I'd be happy to add scapegoat support whenever it comes out :P 18:53:11 I just mean, I'm surprised our visions are so similar on this 18:53:22 right 18:53:38 ais523_: technically i stole that vision from yaedit, which did the save-on-every-keypress thing but not the VCS thing, which is just stupid 18:53:58 I like the fractal structure, because it really cuts down on the number of commands you need to manage things 18:54:00 although the author says you're supposed to use it with a terminal, so you could commit there, still. 18:54:10 making a tag and making a commit are exactly the same concept, for instance 18:54:20 ais523_: please tell me commands take a --zoom argument which tells them how many layers of fractalness to descend before operating 18:54:21 which is the same concept as saving a file 18:54:35 elliott: I haven't quite decided on the syntax for that yet 18:54:43 but you'll certainly be able to do something like that 18:54:50 ais523_: perhaps nested parens! :D 18:55:02 $ scapegoat '((((commit))))' 18:55:06 elliott: I... don't think that's it exactly 18:55:17 cpressey: It would be cool, though. Gotta admit that. 18:55:26 You could also do things like, uh 18:55:30 find ... | show 18:55:34 And have those appear in the top pane. 18:55:41 cpressey: Really I just piggybacked on your idea to plug my idea. 18:55:53 elliott: yes, I notice you do that quite a bit. 18:56:19 cpressey: I don't know whether to be offended or flattered. 18:56:21 $ scapegoat '****commit' seems like a potential idea 18:56:32 ais523_: that makes me think of a correction 18:56:36 although, really, it'd need more information about what to do with the argument 18:56:40 ais523_: I'd just use a repeated flag 18:56:41 ais523_: say, 18:56:47 $ scapegoat -zzzz commit 18:56:49 for zoom 18:56:59 where the code for -z handling is zoom++ 18:57:03 ais523_, this scapegoat thingy sounds awesome 18:57:29 well, the concept of -z would be "instead of operating on this change, operate on all changes it bundles" 18:57:35 ais523_: quick, explain it to Vorpal more so he starts hating it 18:57:42 well, the concept of -z would be "instead of operating on this change, operate on all changes it bundles" 18:57:43 right 18:57:46 then repeat it, etc. 18:57:50 yep 18:57:52 ais523_, but I don't think it would be easy to use " $ scapegoat '****commit' seems like a potential idea" would work very well unless there are very few layers 18:58:10 there wouldn't be many layers at all, I imagine 18:58:22 ais523_: maybe give -z a cousin, z^ 18:58:22 also, you probably wouldn't want to mass-operate on the lower layers, you just could if you wanted to 18:58:23 -z^3 18:58:24 :p 18:58:36 ais523_, ah then it could work just fine, otherwise you would run into the issue "how many of those * are there" 18:58:40 elliott: I think what I'm thinking of is basically incremental grep -r, with the results immediately displayed in something like a folding editor pane 18:58:58 hmm, apart from the "incremental" Emacs almost does that already 18:58:58 but also throw some directory lists in there 18:59:10 cpressey: ah, like, show a file tree? 18:59:14 ais523_: yeah, i sort of thought it did 18:59:15 cpressey: well that's a leaden feature! :P 18:59:23 leaden is basically two tightly-integrated programs 18:59:27 - a file tree viewer 18:59:28 - an editor 18:59:38 - a Towers of Hanoi simulation 18:59:38 admittedly, all i ever did was the start of the latter one 18:59:47 ais523_, XD 18:59:54 ais523_: but hey, it automatically inserted and removed 4-space indentations for python code very early on :) 19:00:01 and it self-hosted after it was like 19:00:02 40 lines 19:00:11 (I did all its development in itself after that until I lost it) 19:00:22 which was fun when i accidentally deleted huge swathes of code, thank god for not closing it and Ctrl+Z 19:00:44 i hadn't persisted undos yet :) 19:00:44 elliott, pesumably you kept it in git? 19:00:48 no 19:00:55 it would also be nice to have a shell that automatically captured the result of each command in a buffer, and let you navigate through buffers. emacs does this too, i bet 19:00:56 i rarely version-control things until they're at about 1.0 19:00:59 well, not 1.0 19:01:02 but, like, the first useful release 19:01:02 elliott, huh 19:01:03 cpressey: M-x shell 19:01:12 it's pretty good, but its command repeat is somewhat suspect 19:01:18 oh curse it all, don't make me use emacs 19:01:23 Vorpal: especially as i basically hate the usual workflow of version control which is *why* i'm using leaden as a vehicle to fix that 19:01:26 elliott, I'm the kind of guy who starts by creating a repo, then starts coding 19:01:34 i am well aware 19:01:34 (i'm addressing the Fates, not anyone here) 19:01:39 (for bonus points, the same mode works just fine, for say, ghci) 19:01:43 it is merely one of numerous thinsg horribly wrong with you :p 19:01:46 *things 19:01:56 I have one 'lab' repo. 19:02:04 ais523_: not as well as inferior-haskell thouh 19:02:05 Once projects mature, they get their own repo. 19:02:05 *though 19:02:10 that exists? 19:02:17 ais523_: so does haskell-mode! 19:02:17 I must try it some time 19:02:19 and haskell-indentation-mode! 19:02:23 I know about haskell-mode 19:02:31 ais523_: try C-x C-l sometime 19:02:32 or whatever it was 19:02:34 in a haskell buffer 19:02:37 inferior-haskell will pop up 19:02:39 probably C-c C-l 19:02:41 just sayin', i need no encouragement to use version control. I've been burnt enough times by disk failures etc. 19:02:51 ais523_: it's not *that* good, you can get it to hang if you C-c C-l after trying to and getting a syntax error 19:03:00 ais523_: but it does highlight errors in red and let you click them to go to that location in the file 19:03:04 (hang = hang emacs) 19:03:07 (solution: don't do that) 19:03:09 M-x flymake-mode? 19:03:16 ais523_: with haskell? good luck! 19:03:26 it works with C, somehow 19:03:27 ais523_: you probably want http://projects.haskell.org/haskellmode-emacs/ 19:03:31 not whatever packaged version 19:03:43 ais523_, what bugs me with M-x shell is that up key doesn't go up in history 19:03:54 ais523_: install instructions: put it somewhere, (load "THERE/haskell-site-file") 19:03:55 hmm, flymake-mode plus clang could be impressive 19:03:55 (add-hook 'haskell-mode-hook 'turn-on-haskell-doc-mode) 19:03:56 (add-hook 'haskell-mode-hook 'turn-on-haskell-indentation) 19:04:01 ais523_: that turns on all the fancy things 19:04:06 Vorpal: as I said, its command repeat is rather suspect 19:04:09 doc-mode just shows you the signatures of functions in the modeline as you type them 19:04:12 ais523_, indeed 19:04:17 indentation does the super-fancy indentation which most people love and some people hate 19:04:22 elliott: my packaged haskell-mode does both of those 19:04:24 (note: press tab to cycle between possible indentations) 19:04:27 ais523_: ok 19:04:32 ais523_: a lot of packages are out of date 19:04:38 ais523_: anyway, yes, C-c C-l should Just Work 19:04:40 also, it isn't the modeline, it's the minibuffer 19:04:44 "- Interaction with inferior Haskell interpreter: just hit C-c C-z or C-c C-l." 19:04:46 or C-c C-z! 19:04:49 ais523_: er, right 19:04:52 you know what i mean 19:05:01 modeline is plausible in that context, just wrong 19:05:04 ais523_, also pgup/pgdown maps to emacs, not to shell 19:05:11 ais523_, I use them for "search in history" 19:05:17 ais523_: it would be perverse to do that in the modeline :) 19:05:29 Vorpal: control-R makes a better "search in history" in bash, at least 19:05:37 and happily works in M-x shell as well 19:05:56 ais523_, um, why is it better? 19:05:57 anyone: do you have leaden's source code? 19:06:06 I don't think I ever put it on the interwebs :( 19:06:13 Vorpal: incremental search 19:06:19 "\e[5~": history-search-backward 19:06:19 "\e[6~": history-search-forward 19:06:25 ais523_, I'm used that that 19:06:27 plus repeated tapping of control-R to get a different entry from history 19:06:38 ais523_, repeated tapping pgup is easier 19:06:52 no it isn't 19:06:59 that's almost as stupid as liking numpad in nethack 19:07:01 no it isn't, the pgup key is tiny and confined to a small corner of the laptop 19:07:04 elliott, I find it easier. *shurg* 19:07:06 in fact, I haven't even memorised wher eit is 19:07:08 *where it is 19:07:13 ais523_, on a laptop yes 19:07:16 no it isn't, the pgup key is normal-sized and confined to the Block of Nearly Useless Keys in the middle 19:07:18 I'm using a full size PC keyboard 19:07:19 of the keyboard 19:07:23 I press /SysRq/ more often than I press PgUp 19:07:25 well, counting the main part as the same size as the numpad 19:07:30 ais523_, I don't 19:07:33 ais523_: I like where pgup/down is on this keyboard 19:07:42 well, counting the main part as the same size as the numpad 19:07:44 right 19:07:47 ais523_: ctrl win menu alt spaaaaaaaaaace altgr pgup pgdown ctrl 19:07:48 on this desktop keyboard I happen to be using, it's in a pretty weird place 19:07:59 ais523_: it's nice because i can easily scroll through things with my thumb 19:08:02 without moving my hand 19:08:03 which is really nice 19:08:11 I use it a lot in IRC to see more scrollback 19:08:14 it's in the Block Of Nearly Useless Keys, but in the centre-right (it's, abnormally, a 3x3 block) 19:08:25 I used to hit it a lot by mistake but I've adjusted now 19:08:41 I find pgup/pgdown useful but Ctrl+R is easier to type, yse. 19:08:43 ais523_, what are the 3 extra keys then? 19:08:43 *yes. 19:08:45 above the Block in question is a Block Of Totally Useless Keys, with icons of Internet Explorer (6, by the look of it), Outlook Express, and a moon 19:09:01 and the three extra keys in the Block are used for the keys normally above the Block 19:09:10 ais523_: we need a better key-combo notation, one that handles both "press this *after* this" and "press this *with* this", and also handles pathological things like control minus and alt minus well 19:09:13 also, End is physically touching Up, presumably because the Block is bigger 19:09:14 ais523_, moon would be suspend to disk presumably 19:09:19 Vorpal: probably to RAM 19:09:23 ais523_, or that 19:09:27 and the other two have obvious meanings, just probably not while running Linux 19:09:32 * ais523_ presses the IE key to see what happens 19:09:38 nothing, apparently 19:09:51 ais523_: also, which is short to type 19:10:20 I've been using - for "simultaneously" and , for "consecutively", and parens 19:10:36 ais523_: with simultaneously, how do you notate control minus? 19:10:37 Control--? 19:10:39 that's just confusing 19:10:51 ais523_: or, with a + system, control plus 19:10:52 Control++ 19:11:02 e.g. "to shut down my old laptop by hand, type alt-((fn-sysrq),r,(fn-sysrq),e,(fn-sysrq),i,(fn-sysrq),s,(fn-sysrq),u,(fn-sysrq),b) 19:11:04 ais523_: "Control -" and "Control +" are nicer, but that leaves the problem of sequential keys 19:11:13 I used control-- because it's unambiguous 19:11:30 e.g. "to shut down my old laptop by hand, type alt-((fn-sysrq),r,(fn-sysrq),e,(fn-sysrq),i,(fn-sysrq),s,(fn-sysrq),u,(fn-sysrq),b) 19:11:33 that is perverse :D 19:11:36 incidentally, this is why putting sysrq behind fn is really annoying 19:11:47 it took me ages to find that /particular/ way of typing it 19:11:49 ais523_: that's wrong 19:11:55 you have to hold down sysrq while typing such commands 19:11:56 i think 19:11:57 maybe not 19:12:02 nope, you have to hold down alt 19:12:05 ais523_: also, it isn't fn-sysrq 19:12:05 but you can release sysrq 19:12:11 it's fn-whatever-you-use-with-fn-to-get-sysrq 19:12:20 but you can release sysrq ;; oh, emergency rebooting now will be so much easier :D 19:12:28 ais523_: also, yours doesn't shut down 19:12:29 ais523_, sysrq is a bit buggered on my laptop in that respect too. 19:12:30 it restarts 19:12:34 err, yes 19:12:41 replace Boring with Ominous for a shutdown 19:12:46 ais523_, but shouldn't using prtsc work, since normally they are on the same key 19:12:52 ais523_: i... 19:12:55 you have mnemonics? 19:12:55 often not on a laptop 19:12:58 *a mnemonic? 19:13:03 elliott: I don't need the mnemonic 19:13:09 what is the mnemonic> 19:13:11 *mnemonic? 19:13:13 in fact, knowing the command sequence makes the mnemonic easier to memorise 19:13:22 but it's the usual Raising Elephants Is So Utterly Boring one 19:13:30 I just memorised REISUB, pronounced "reesub" or "raysub" 19:13:38 it took... zero effort :p 19:13:51 elliott: well, I encountered the mnemonic before I encountered the sequence 19:14:06 in fact, the first mnemonic I encountered had S before E, but I dislike that order of doing things 19:14:17 in fact, knowing the command sequence makes the mnemonic easier to memorise <-- thus the mnemonic can be considered rather failed? 19:14:21 what if a program decides to write autosave data to disk in response to SIGTERM? 19:14:34 ais523_: hmm, it seems that you should probably press i a few seconds after e 19:14:37 I usually type it out as one word 19:14:42 albeit not quite as quickly 19:14:45 you should wait a few seconds between every pair 19:14:47 to avoid errors 19:14:48 ais523_: ha 19:14:52 oh well, i've never had an issue 19:14:54 except arguably U to B, because setting disks readonly doesn't take long 19:14:57 * elliott cowboy 19:15:00 ais523_: surely not after R 19:15:02 that's an instant operation 19:15:10 I always break to press control-alt-f1 after R 19:15:12 "Call oom_kill, which kills a process to alleviate an OOM condition" 19:15:14 ais523_: dare me to do this now 19:15:16 just to see if it was the keyboard controller that was borked 19:15:20 let's see what dies! 19:15:29 elliott: if you're not doing anything important, you may as well see what happens 19:15:34 ais523_: certainly 19:15:35 make sure you save your work first, etc. etc. 19:15:39 * elliott alt+sysrq+f 19:15:48 ais523_: nothing happened; how disappointing 19:15:53 check syslog to see what it killed 19:16:07 Oct 28 19:15:18 dinky kernel: [10781.698175] SysRq : This sysrq operation is disabled. 19:16:07 ais523_, personally I remember it by the order of the commands, like raw "tErm kIll Sync Unmount reBoot" 19:16:09 maybe nothing /visible/ happened 19:16:13 hmm 19:16:13 ais523_, I find that easier 19:16:17 ais523_: thank you, big brother linux! 19:16:20 Vorpal: can you really not memorise "reisub"? 19:16:22 err " ended up in wrong place 19:16:23 your memory is broken 19:16:26 Vorpal: well, it takes random letters from each word 19:16:32 elliott, well it would be easy, but also pointless 19:16:42 I hadn't even memorised the reason for the letters, just "E = terminate", etc 19:16:46 ais523_, only for term and kill 19:16:48 ais523_: how on earth and why was that disabled, I wonder? 19:16:58 I mean, would you /guess/ that Shutdown was O? 19:17:10 elliott: I wonder too 19:17:10 ais523_, no 19:17:11 which distro? 19:17:16 ais523_: Debian 19:17:17 (I take it from context you're on Linux) 19:17:17 ais523_: how on earth and why was that disabled, I wonder? <-- /proc/sys I presume 19:17:28 * elliott pokes around /proc/sys 19:17:31 i forgot how awful /proc is 19:17:34 elliott, check sysctl.conf 19:17:38 elliott, or sysctl.d 19:17:39 elliott@dinky:/proc/sys/kernel$ cat sysrq 19:17:40 438 19:17:41 I BET IT'S A BITMASK 19:17:42 it is usually there 19:17:48 elliott, what 19:17:52 I never seen it that way before 19:17:59 i was just poking around 19:18:11 bitmask seems plausible for such an apparently random number 19:18:15 $ sysctl kernel.sysrq 19:18:15 kernel.sysrq = 1 19:18:15 Vorpal: nothing sysrq in my sysctl.conf 19:18:21 I thought it was a *boolean* 19:18:31 Vorpal: wow @ sysctl, you use a program to do cat and echo for you? 19:18:39 what a sad summary of current unix practice 19:18:40 elliott, shorter to type :P 19:18:42 *practise 19:19:03 elliott, also on *bsd /proc/sys doesn't exist 19:19:05 linux: manages to copy a plan 9 concept (/proc), take away all the useful things from it, and then get rid of the whole point of it 19:19:19 * elliott just uses /sys 19:19:29 elliott, /sys doesn't have this 19:19:33 which isn't the same thing 19:19:33 joy 19:19:43 elliott: I disagree; linux /proc might not work as well as plan9 /proc, but it's still useful 19:19:53 ais523_, indeed 19:19:58 ais523_: well, ok, but vastly less so 19:19:58 for one thing, it's responsible for ensuring that all inodes have filenames 19:20:11 ais523_, what? 19:20:13 * elliott enables sysrq 19:20:21 Vorpal: think about it 19:20:28 ais523_: please try and make him figure it out for once... 19:20:42 hmm, am I not allowed to be helpful? 19:20:56 ais523_: not for something so easily figurable out, surely? Vorpal asks what every five minutes 19:20:56 What are we making Vorpal figure out now? 19:20:59 well there is an obvious solution, but that seems a rather stupid definition 19:21:07 cpressey: how /proc makes sure every inode has a filename 19:21:09 why /proc is responsible for ensuring that all inodes have filenames 19:21:10 if you refer to /proc//fd/ 19:21:15 Vorpal: It's a sort of a silly boolean-bitmask hybrid: 0 is off, 1 means "all values enabled", and any other non-zero values work as a bitmask. 19:21:17 those are symlinks 19:21:18 "It's stupid because... because it's stupid!" 19:21:20 not actual filenames 19:21:22 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:21:28 so it doesn't actually work out at all 19:21:28 Vorpal: they're only sort-of symlinks 19:21:31 ais523_: ok, i've enabled it now 19:21:32 time to test 19:21:36 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:21:47 Yeah, I have no idea why or how it does that, so OK. 19:21:47 -!- elliott has joined. 19:21:48 ais523_, yes but they have different inode numbers afaik 19:21:50 ais523_: what are the chances? 19:21:52 ais523_: it killed *xchat* 19:21:55 they *couldn't* have the same ones 19:22:00 if the file's been deleted, they stat as broken symlinks, but can be read from anyway 19:22:05 ais523_: :-D 19:22:06 elliott: it doesn't seem that implausible 19:22:11 ais523_: time to try again 19:22:13 ais523_, true 19:22:15 I figured what had happened straight off 19:22:17 Oct 28 19:21:49 dinky kernel: [11172.905065] Killed process 1939 (pidgin) 19:22:34 Oct 28 19:22:05 dinky kernel: [11188.911397] Killed process 1928 (xfce4-menu-plug) 19:22:44 you're using xchat and pidgin simultaneously? 19:22:51 ais523_: yes, pidgin is beyond awful for IRC 19:22:53 ais523_, but they can't have the same inodes since they if the same inode number existed on two different file systems and both were open, /proc would break badly 19:23:04 ais523_: *I* am too :) 19:23:05 thus not all inodes have names 19:23:05 I know people who use it on Windows; it doesn't seem as bad as mIRC 19:23:10 ais523_: what? 19:23:13 well, irssi, not xchat 19:23:16 ais523_: mIRC is a pretty damn good client 19:23:20 pidgin is utterly terrible 19:23:27 ais523_: pidgin treats IRC rooms like small IM-protocol group convos 19:23:34 which is just hilariously brokem 19:23:35 *broken 19:23:35 mIRC's really annoying for anyone else in the channel at the same time 19:23:39 why? 19:23:47 nonstandard formatting 19:23:49 it keeps barfing up green shit, man 19:23:51 what? 19:24:00 it keeps sending random control codes followed by numbers 19:24:01 it needs to see a doctor about that 19:24:07 ais523_, oh that. Only due to control codes 19:24:08 followed by setting a white foreground 19:24:15 ais523_: maybe ancient versions... 19:24:23 ais523_, and user stupidity 19:24:27 white foreground on colored background = what client encourages people to think that's a good idea? 19:24:30 yeah i'll chalk that down to user stupidity 19:24:35 ais523_: it doesn't! 19:24:37 mirc has never done that for me 19:24:41 ais523_: you're *very* good at FUD 19:24:48 I've been in channels where nearly all the users are mIRC users 19:24:51 can you not immediately attribute things to other things without making sure first? 19:25:10 It hasn't ever been sending color codes for me either without specifically asking for them. Various mIRC *scripts* are another thing, though. 19:25:15 oh, the people ask for them 19:25:25 ais523_: then those people are stupid 19:25:28 PEBKAC 19:25:40 but still, why does it have an option to send codes that only other people who use the same client understand? and assume that other clients will interpret it the same way? 19:25:43 ugh, pebkac on google images gives userfriendly comics 19:25:48 ais523_: mirc colours is oooold 19:25:50 like 90s old 19:25:53 between keyboard and computer 19:25:59 cpressey: *and chair :p 19:26:07 mine's funnier 19:26:15 I totally sit in front of my keyboard 19:26:27 hmm, I wonder if that can be fixed by holding the keyboard behind me, so that it's the air that's to blame? 19:26:29 elliott, yeah that is a problem right there! 19:26:38 Vorpal: ? 19:26:43 elliott, ergonomics joke. 19:26:52 oh, your joke is "that's not ergonomic!" 19:26:54 you're hilarious. 19:26:56 truly hilarious 19:26:59 a shining wit 19:27:22 elliott, "problem exist [in the fact in] sitting between keyboard and chair" 19:27:28 err 19:27:31 keyboard and computer 19:27:33 XD 19:27:42 oh, I see 19:27:45 that is actually a valid pun 19:27:52 ais523_, indeed! 19:27:53 it just requires so much explanation to get, that it probably wasn't worth it 19:28:00 i wonder if humour on a level as terrible as Vorpal's is genetic 19:28:09 if so, i had better start promoting eugenics in sweden 19:28:22 [takes it seriously] 19:28:32 ais523_: are you going to /nick ais523? like ever? :p 19:28:45 elliott: but then the wireless might start working and kick me off from this connection 19:28:58 haha 19:29:00 (note, I actually stopped trying after an hour or so) 19:29:03 ais523_: x_x 19:29:19 ais523_: it's unlikely to do that if your client doesn't automatically ghost 19:29:24 I wonder if it would be feasible to become a citizen of every country that allows for multiple citizenship. 19:29:40 elliott: I know it doesn't; instead, it'd pick the name ais523_ 19:29:43 and that would just be confusing 19:29:46 because /I'm/ ais523_ 19:29:47 pikhq, that would certainly be interesting 19:29:51 ais523_: I... hate you 19:29:52 ais523_: >_< 19:29:53 :p 19:30:13 Not to mention awesome. 19:30:27 pikhq, indeed, can you make a list of which countries these are 19:30:28 "Show me your passport?" "Which? I've got dozens!" 19:30:56 it might be quite hard 19:31:02 pikhq, you would need a suitcase for just the passports! 19:31:11 one of my friends at school was simultaneously New Zealandish and English 19:31:15 04:38:13 there's a rather clear separation into the 99% of esolangs that are fun syntax ideas, and the 3% that someone actually put some thought into. 19:31:21 `addquote there's a rather clear separation into the 99% of esolangs that are fun syntax ideas, and the 3% that someone actually put some thought into. 19:31:23 249| there's a rather clear separation into the 99% of esolangs that are fun syntax ideas, and the 3% that someone actually put some thought into. 19:31:45 ais523_: New... Zealand...ish? 19:31:46 and she talked about the difficulty of trying to maintain the genetic balance of nationalities within her family so as to not lose one citizenship or the other 19:32:01 elliott: well, any alternative I could come up with would have been misleading 19:32:08 so I just tried to be precise but incorrect 19:32:08 ais523_: Uuuuh, that's not how citizenship works. 19:32:15 pikhq: apparently, it is in New Zealand 19:32:26 Note to self: LOL NEW ZEALAND CUR-AAZEY 19:33:42 New Zealand citizenship is jus solis, and UK citizenship is jus sanguinis and jus solis. 19:34:01 * Gregor hugs HackEgo 19:34:03 French citizenship is au jus. 19:34:11 pikhq, what does that mean 19:34:33 Vorpal: Citizenship by being born there for jus solis, citizenship by being born a decendant for jus sanguinis. 19:34:40 pikhq, ah 19:34:59 pikhq, and what about citizenship by moving there and applying for it? 19:35:05 Vorpal: That's naturalisation. 19:35:08 jus pretty please 19:35:13 elliott, XD 19:35:26 Modification of jus soli has been criticized as contributing to economic inequality, the perpetuation of unfree labour from a helot underclass, and statelessness. 19:35:27 Vorpal: I was only discussing automatic forms of citizenship. 19:35:33 elliott, you actually made a funny joke! 19:35:36 elliott, how rare 19:35:55 I suspect elliot considers eir own joke to be unfunny in that context 19:35:59 that one wasn't funny 19:36:02 *elliott 19:36:03 French citizenship is au jus. 19:36:04 this was 19:36:05 I know I do 19:36:11 Oh, New Zealand also has jus soli citizenship. 19:36:19 elliott, so why did you say it 19:36:28 Vorpal: maybe i wanted to bait you into saying that 19:36:31 Erm, jus sanguinis... 19:36:42 elliott, I doubt it. Besides I stand for my point of view 19:36:52 But limited. 19:37:03 Anyways, it wouldn't be too hard to pass down UK and New Zealand citizenship. 19:37:18 pikhq, what about Sweden? (And where do you find this info) 19:37:46 Vorpal: Wikipedia! 19:37:46 pikhq: presumably one of the restrictions against citizenship tourism was that if you married someone of a different nationality and your parents didn't come from there, you lost it again 19:37:52 pikhq, hm 19:37:55 also, Wikipedia was an obvious place to check 19:37:56 pikhq, okay 19:38:02 I mean, I went there without being prompted 19:38:54 There is someone's (very vague) plan for getting a 13-fold citizenship without naturalization (just some selective breeding) at http://archives.conlang.info/bhi/dardan/dhiaghaencal.html but I haven't seen any actual attempts at. 19:39:18 ais523_: Actually, the restrictions against citizenship tourism are, in New Zealand, as with most other places, that the citizenship gets transferred by descent if one parent is not citizen soley by descent, except if there would be no other citizenship. 19:39:31 you'd need to find a large number of famillies willing to crossbread to make it work, wouldn't you? 19:39:50 pikhq: hmm, perhaps my friend's parents were just worried about the nationality of her children 19:39:56 ais523_: Well, in that plan "parent 2: born in Taiwan, parents a) Russian and b) Romania-living ethnic German" might not be completely trivial to find. 19:40:14 well, you could presumably engineer it 19:40:20 "Wow... complicated stuff. Just out of curiosity, why do you want to 19:40:21 know? Intellectual exercise?" 19:40:22 psht! 19:40:26 ais523_: And with the UK, if you wouldn't get the citizenship automatically, due to your parents being citizens soley by descent, you can *register* as a citizen. 19:40:29 no, actually a ridiculously comprehensive getaway plan 19:40:29 but you'd need quite a lot of families to cooperate into arranged marriages 19:40:35 pikhq: there's even an exam 19:40:44 it was the subject of quite a bit of public ridicule at the time, IIRC 19:41:04 nowadays they purport to teach citizenship in schools 19:41:05 ais523_: Which consists of: living in the UK for 5 years, and informing the government that you are now a citizen. 19:41:11 but nobody takes it seriously, not even the teachers 19:41:22 pikhq: are you sure that hasn't been changed since the source you're reading? 19:41:23 ais523_: no, they don't, that's pshserhe now i think 19:41:28 it was in the last few years it changed, IIRC 19:41:37 elliott: PSE/PSHE and Citizenship were different subjects 19:41:43 well, are 19:41:49 this is after I left school, so quite recently 19:41:54 (Personal Social Horticultural Seafaring Ecclesiastical Rambunctious Health Education) 19:42:08 ais523_: Uuh, I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about. 19:42:14 pikhq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_citizenship#British_citizenship_by_naturalisation 19:42:25 ais523_: Registration is different from naturalisation. 19:42:28 ais523_: thought: DOS would be so much nicer without that pesky shell and API 19:42:37 * cpressey has a fun syntax idea 19:42:42 ais523_: like, if it was just something that could load and execute a COM from an FS, and had filesystem routines. 19:42:49 pikhq: ah; seems you have to be a British national already to pull that one off 19:43:02 elliott: it has an interrupt for malloc 19:43:09 that one always amused me 19:43:16 ais523_: see, this is why DOS sucks! 19:43:18 (because I learnt other OSes before I learnt DOS) 19:43:19 ais523_: Or a member of a few different other things. 19:43:24 ais523_: wait, why is that amusing 19:43:41 ais523_: DOS ought to be: a driver for floppies and disks, filesystem routines for these, and a COM loader 19:43:41 ais523_: Such as being a child of a British citizen. 19:43:47 other than interrupts being generally amusing 19:43:48 cpressey: API level clash 19:43:49 ais523_: it would be the perfect OS 19:44:01 I mean, OSes like UNIX have sbrk() as the system call, not malloc() itself 19:44:27 elliott: presumably, you could still use BIOS interrupts for I/O, etc? 19:44:30 ais523_: I... suppose. One of several distinctions that DOS just kind of... obviates. 19:44:35 ais523_: yep 19:44:42 ais523_: or, more likely, just use the DOS routines 19:44:58 ais523_: it can provide a drive access API, a filesystem API, and a COM loader API; just nothing else 19:45:15 You could strip down FreeDOS fairly easily 19:45:16 ais523_: a command shell could add screen printing functions if it wanted, I suppose 19:45:23 ais523_: but otherwise you'd just use VGA memory 19:45:26 which is trivial 19:45:28 hmm, it seems you can renounce British citizenship whenever you want 19:45:38 -!- cheater99 has joined. 19:45:41 by declaring it to the Home Secretary 19:45:44 ais523_: indeed 19:45:50 ais523_: but not quite 19:45:55 ais523_: you have to have citizenship of another state to do so 19:46:03 and then put FreeDOS into Bochs and then turn that into a web browser where pages are boot disk images 19:46:03 ais523_: Also fun, it's really easy to pull off Irish/UK dual citizenship. Be born in North Ireland, and then go to Ireland and perform an action that only Irish citizens can perform. 19:46:06 so you couldn't just go to the home secretary now and say "yo, decitizenise me" 19:46:13 he'd go "no ud have nowher to go" 19:46:13 nope, just intend to get it in the next 6 months 19:46:16 ais523_: really? 19:46:17 ais523_: omg 19:46:18 ais523_: Thereby instantly becoming a citizen of Ireland. 19:46:20 ais523_: i can become stateless 19:46:24 TOO AWESOME 19:46:25 if your citizenship bid fails, you get UK citizenship back 19:46:28 ais523_: oh 19:46:36 becoming stateless is not particularly awesome, btw 19:46:40 ais523_: but what if you just keep applying for, say, kazakhergidstan citizenship 19:46:42 ais523_: it has its sticky bit set 19:46:46 and keep renouncing UK citizenship 19:46:52 to be a citizen for, like, one day every six months 19:46:53 WHAT THEN 19:47:00 and then put FreeDOS into Bochs and then turn that into a web browser where pages are boot disk images 19:47:01 apparently they don't have to give it back the second time 19:47:03 i hate you :) 19:47:08 ais523_: awesome 19:47:10 elliott: The Japanese consititution has enumerated rights. Among these rights is the right to cease to be a Japanese citizen for *any reason at all*. 19:47:18 ais523_: what i'd really like to be is an EU citizen 19:47:20 but you can't do that 19:47:23 well 19:47:25 a European citizen 19:47:25 elliott: You are an EU citizen. 19:47:29 pikhq: yes, but 19:47:30 pikhq: couldn't you then legally ask for asylum in Japan, if you were a Japanese citizen beforehand? 19:47:31 with no other citizenship 19:47:36 ais523_: Yes. 19:47:44 i.e. wherever you are in the EU, you are the type of citizen EU citizens are if they go abroad to the EU now 19:47:46 there is something very screwy about this 19:47:46 ais523_: You can also get citizenship back instantly. 19:48:20 pikhq: so, hypothetically, if you wanted to commit a crime and Japan lacked laws to punish foreigners who commit crimes... 19:48:30 cpressey: you hardly need to hack freedos, though 19:48:32 "From 1 January 2004, all new applicants for British citizenship by naturalisation or registration aged 18 or over if their application is successful must attend a citizenship ceremony and either make an affirmation or take an oath of allegiance to the monarch, and also make a pledge to the United Kingdom." 19:48:34 elliott: Victory. 19:48:40 cpressey: IDE routines are a page of asm 19:48:46 cpressey: FAT routines are a page or two of asm 19:48:49 cpressey: COM loading is a few bytes of asm :P 19:48:54 that doesn't really make sense, Labour were in power then 19:48:57 elliott: everything is easy etc etc 19:48:59 and it's the sort of thing the Conservatives would do 19:49:12 cpressey: well, you could do it in like three to four pages of asm, total 19:49:28 elliott: if you wanted to rewrite it yourself and debug what you wrote, yes 19:49:43 apparently, before 2004, they didn't have a ceremony, and the oath of allegiance was verified by a lawyer 19:49:49 cpressey: oh come on, IDE routines have little room for failure 19:50:01 cpressey: http://www.colorforth.com/ide.html 19:50:15 elliott: in something as complex as Visual Studio or Eclipse? 19:50:26 COM loading is literally reading a file from disk to a memory location and then jmp 19:50:26 pikhq, "Be born in North Ireland, and then go to Ireland and perform an action that only Irish citizens can perform." <-- that action being? 19:50:28 ais523_: not that kind of IDE 19:50:29 (note: Vorpal may accidentally mistake this for a good joke) 19:50:32 oh 19:50:33 lawl 19:50:41 so let's see 19:50:44 Vorpal: being shot after sunset? 19:50:57 ais523_, ... I don't get the joke here 19:50:59 ais523_: [joke detector] BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP 19:51:06 cpressey: so let's see, IDE reading is http://colorforth.com/ide.html super-simple, COM loading is literally reading a file from disk to a memory location and then jmp 19:51:07 elliott: you seem to think i'm arguing against rewriting it 19:51:10 (there's a city somewhere which still hasn't repealed a law which allegedly makes it legal to shoot Irishmen after sunset under certain conditions) 19:51:13 cpressey: the potential for error is in FAT routines entirely :P 19:51:19 ais523_, hah 19:51:38 ais523_: it's legal to shoot scots with a bow and arrow in northerly areas, I think 19:51:41 something like that, anyway 19:51:50 cpressey: LET'S REWRITE IT (you can do the hard parts) 19:52:02 presumably dating from the days when a) target practice was mandatory, and b) all english hated all scottsih 19:52:03 did DOS use FAT12 or FAT16? 19:52:06 *scottish 19:52:12 elliott: FAT16, I think, but I'm not sure 19:52:20 DOS 1 hardly had a filesystem at all, it didn't have directories 19:52:26 they were one of the innovations in DOS 2 19:52:28 elliott: both, no? 19:52:36 ais523_: is there any reason for FAT16 to exist apart from volumes above 32 megs? 19:52:51 that's quite a reason 19:52:53 elliott: there are no hard parts 19:52:54 ais523_: FAT16 was added around 3.something, because I remember having to split the 40-meg HD. 19:53:00 ais523_: "Transparent encryption: Per-volume only with DR-DOS" 19:53:02 hmm, good to konw 19:53:04 *know 19:53:25 Vorpal: An example of such an action would be voting. Or asking for a passport. 19:53:38 Vorpal: Yes, you would become a citizen of Ireland *the instant you tried to vote*. 19:53:41 hmm, so attempting to vote in Ireland makes you Irish? 19:53:45 and thus, able to vote? 19:53:48 elliott, would you really get away with it if you tried today (bow and arrow to shoot a scot) 19:53:49 ais523_: If you are entitled to Irish citizenship. 19:53:55 ah 19:53:56 presumably the law would finally be repelled then 19:54:06 ais523_: People born on the *island* of Ireland are entitled to such, for instance. 19:54:09 Vorpal: it's likely overridden by subsequent legislation 19:54:13 elliott: you KNOW i have to turn this thing into a web browser somehow 19:54:23 ais523_, ah 19:54:33 cpressey: then run JSMIPS in it, and a simulation of DOS on there? 19:55:02 http://catseye.tc/index.dsk 19:55:06 Vorpal: Yes, you would become a citizen of Ireland *the instant you tried to vote*. <-- would that not cause some general confusion with the person supposed to register the vote? 19:55:15 There seems to have been an "initial FAT-16" from 3.0 to 3.2 which didn't actually increase the volume size limits (from 32 MB), just the maximum cluster count -- so smaller clusters = less space-wastage -- and then 3.31 introducing the real FAT-16 which can do up to 2 GB. 19:55:25 Vorpal: Well, it works somehow. 19:55:29 pikhq, heh 19:55:41 Oooh. Irish citizenship by descent can last forever *easily*. 19:55:42 pikhq, why do they do this though? 19:55:48 cpressey: What, 404! 19:56:16 Just a matter of notifying Ireland of each birth, and voila. Perpetual Irish citizenship. 19:57:09 Vorpal: ... Northern Ireland is effectively just Ireland, but happens to be in the UK. 19:57:15 pikhq, hah 19:57:36 pikhq: you could probably start a war with that statement 19:57:44 Vorpal: the situation with Northern Ireland is incredibly complicated 19:57:53 ais523_, right 19:58:01 ais523_, I gathered that much 19:58:08 there are very strong opinions in Northern Ireland about whether it should be part of Ireland or the UK, mostly split along religious lines 19:58:29 ais523_, yes I know that much 19:58:36 ais523_, we have newspapers here 19:58:43 it even used to erupt into civil war now and again, although it's been pretty peaceful for ages and everyone's getting along relatively nicely 19:58:50 Vorpal: which talk about Northern Ireland? 19:58:54 http://catseye.tc/index.dsk 19:58:58 404 *sniff* 19:59:36 and there are something like five or six political parties representing a large range of viewpoints, which sit on both a special Northern Ireland assembly, and also the UK Government 19:59:38 it even used to erupt into civil war now and again, although it's been pretty peaceful for ages and everyone's getting along relatively nicely 19:59:38 ais523_, well, the war before, then not full war but still conflicts and nowdays usually just a few times every year some demonstrations causing general irritation 19:59:40 except when it doesn't 19:59:46 and then MOLOTOV COCKTAILS 20:00:02 We only have Åland, who I think sort-of wanted to be part of Sweden, and vice-versa; and no-one actually bothers any more to get all emotional about it. 20:00:18 All because catholics and protestants find it hard to get along for... Stupid reasons. 20:00:23 (although it's a bit of a habit for the strongly anti-UK parties to refuse to attend the UK Houses of Parliament ever, even though they've technically been elected; people trying to work out coalition maths have to keep correcting for this) 20:00:26 fizzie, not just sort of. They fully wanted it 20:00:42 Seriously, the whole thing with Ireland & Northern Ireland is just a demonstration of the power of stupidity. 20:00:44 Vorpal: Only 96.2 % of them. :p 20:00:44 fizzie: Sweden wanted to be part of Åland? 20:00:45 fizzie, they are still not part of EU though 20:00:56 fizzie, that is quite a large majority! 20:00:59 ais523_++ 20:01:05 ais523_, :P 20:01:13 I note that Vorpal hasn't corrected fizzie yet. 20:01:20 (HA HA FUCK YOU FIZZIE ENJOY YOUR CORRECTION) 20:01:22 elliott, I didn't notice the typo 20:01:32 (although it's a bit of a habit for the strongly anti-UK parties to refuse to attend the UK Houses of Parliament ever, even though they've technically been elected; people trying to work out coalition maths have to keep correcting for this) 20:01:39 did Sinn Faen or however you spell it ever actually get used? 20:01:48 *Sinn Féin 20:01:58 they generally have around 3 seats, but never turn up as a point of principle 20:02:08 it seems that to be allowed in there you have to swear allegiance to the Queen, or something 20:02:15 one of these old formalities that's been around for ages 20:02:17 and they refuse to 20:02:40 heh 20:02:56 this technically disenfranchises the constituencies who vote for them, but somehow I don't think they care 20:03:19 catseye: argh, how can you make me want to code 386 assembly? 20:03:37 It shall be called DOS, the Dork's Operating System. 20:03:40 elliott: better, do 8086 20:03:45 Or the Dumbfounded Operating System. 20:03:48 ais523_: what did DOS 1 run on? :p 20:03:55 also, use the binary-coded-decimal operations as much as possible 20:04:02 elliott: I don't actually know, I've only read the manual, not actually used it 20:04:36 DOS 1 ran on the IBM PC, of course. 20:04:47 oh, right 20:05:03 so I should write 8088 asm 20:05:14 what was the first DOS not to run on the IBM PC, and what did it run on? :P 20:05:28 ais523_: MS-DOS was a renamed form of 86-DOS — informally known as the Quick-and-dirty Operating System or Q-DOS [2] — owned by Seattle Computer Products, written by Tim Paterson[2]. Microsoft needed an operating system for the then-new Intel 8086 but it had none available, so it licensed 86-DOS and released a version of it as MS-DOS 1.0[2]. Development started in 1981, and MS-DOS 1.0 was released with the IBM PC in 1982[2]. 20:05:42 heh: [[Worried by possible legal problems, in June 1981 Microsoft made an offer to Rod Brock, the owner of Seattle Computer, to buy the rights for 86-DOS. An agreement to release all rights to the software was signed in June 1981. The total cost was $75,000.[3][n 2]]] 20:05:45 Seattle Computer got fucked 20:06:20 elliott: hmm, what do you think of ? it's a document filed by Oracle comparing source code in Oracle Java and Android Java 20:06:45 I'm trying to figure out if it's copying, or just coincidence of one obvious way to do it 20:07:01 ais523_: I think that the a priori probability of Oracle being full of shit when attacking Google is very close to 1, based on Oracle being dickheads and Google not being nearly as dickheaded, and the fact that Sun never did it. 20:07:10 I'm not sure when (or even if) they dropped 8088 support; though you can't run all components (emm386, say) on pre-386. 20:07:17 (Well not *that* close to 1, but you know.) 20:07:30 elliott: well, yes, but I'm still curious as to the point they're making there in the abstract 20:07:31 fizzie: Probably just worth supporting 386, then, isn't it. 20:07:46 perhaps I'll send it to the other Java tutors as an exercise in detecting plagiarism 20:07:58 ais523_: ugh, they didn't embed their monospaced font 20:08:11 so it shows as the unreadable default PDF sans font for me, with added spacing to make it monospaced 20:08:14 it's Oracle, what do you expect? 20:08:17 and it looks condensed 20:08:22 ais523_: I, literally, find ita lmost impossible to read this 20:08:40 hmm, it isn't even actually monospaced 20:08:45 the lines don't line up from one to the next 20:08:48 it's just pretending to be monospaced 20:08:50 *it almost 20:09:05 ais523_: hm? 20:09:18 it looks monospaced at a glance 20:09:24 but it actually isn't, the lines don't line up 20:09:38 ais523_: my current thoughts on these: "it probably isn't copied, but even if it is, this shouldn't be copyrightable at all..." 20:09:48 oh, it's monospaced, but the tab isn't an integral number of characters 20:09:58 * ais523_ wonders what effect that has on elliott's tabs theory 20:10:02 ais523_: my eyes hurt 20:10:09 my theory is that i hate oracle 20:10:30 The indents look 4-chars here, but I haven't looked very closely. 20:10:46 ais523_: heh, I just realised that my DOS wouldn't have a simple way to support universal piping 20:10:48 and redirection 20:10:56 because you'd basically rely on the shell to provide putchar and the like 20:11:17 Uh, or more correctly: the indents look like four characters in the right column, but not in the left one. 20:11:26 to me, the property names are looking more similar than I'd expect them to be by chance, but the code isn't 20:11:35 OTOH, you'd expect Oracle to pick the best example they could 20:11:41 ais523_: the property names are probably mandated by Java 20:11:57 they're private, but I suppose they might be anyway 20:11:59 ais523_: I mean, the library is standardised... 20:12:04 ais523_: well, they're probably listed in the spec 20:12:08 even if not mandated 20:12:43 Anything that has a directly named public getter will at least cause identical names for the underlying private properties. 20:12:48 anyone know a nice 86 assembler? 386 or 8086 or whatever, i don't care :p 20:13:00 nice and simple. also, simple 20:13:07 i don't need executable format support 20:13:49 There was a rather large x86 assembler comparison article somewhere, but I didn't save the URL anywhere. 20:13:53 I'd just go with NASM. 20:14:15 It's not like it's slow, and you can just ignore the features you don't like; but if for ideological reasons that's no go... 20:14:28 fizzie: NASM? *So* Linux. 20:14:30 I'm totally DOSing here. 20:14:39 Maybe I'll use FASM. 20:14:56 That's very DOSy. 20:15:19 gas! 20:15:25 NASM runs in DOS just fine; it's what I used back then, there. 20:15:29 elliott: use the Borland assembler 20:15:32 no, better 20:15:35 ais523_: no :P 20:15:36 use DEBUG.EXE 20:15:41 fizzie: No, but, I want DOS philosophy! 20:15:45 ais523_: does that even have mnemonics? 20:15:48 you can write asm straight into memory, then save the resulting executable as a file 20:15:54 it does indeed 20:15:54 Well, I have done a bit of TASM, but that's really not simple. 20:16:00 it's how I've written ASM before now 20:16:08 (Also commercial, of course.) 20:16:13 it's a pain to edit if you want to insert lines, though, you have to move the whole block of code by hand 20:16:20 and even though it has mnemonics, it doesn't have labels 20:16:21 ais523_: maybe i'll implement the DEBUG.COM assembly language in C to use on the host 20:16:28 ais523_: and then provide my own DEBUG.COM-alike for the OS 20:16:36 I'm reasonably certain you could run DOS 7 on an original IBM PC. 20:16:39 oh, is it a .COM? 20:16:47 ais523_: in older DOS :P 20:16:56 Someone please tell me FreeDOS supports x86-64. 20:17:12 elliott: DOS programs can be x86-64 only, yes. 20:17:17 <3 20:17:38 The OS itself should still run on a basic IBM PC, but programs have no such restriction. 20:17:42 ais523_: hmm, does 8086 have the long/far/whatever pointer architecture? 20:17:54 elliott: indeed 20:18:01 ais523_: what's the oldest thing that doesn't? :p 20:18:09 I am more than a bit allergic to anything that has more than one kind of pointer. 20:18:13 a long pointer can point to a different segment, a short pointer points to the current segment 20:18:36 elliott: Microprocessor or CPU architecture in general? 20:18:45 pikhq: architecture 20:18:48 and a far pointer is identical to a long pointer, except arithmetic operations on it are more expensive to handle overflow from one segment to the 4096th-next correctly 20:18:54 but if you give something unhelpful i'll ask microprocessor :) 20:19:01 *i'll ask for microprocessor :) 20:19:06 ais523_: heh 20:19:24 I'm inclined to go with EDVAC. 20:19:30 pikhq: >_< 20:19:32 pikhq: 8086-derived 20:19:32 If you mean the first x86 that you can run in a (mostly) non-segmented way, that'd be 386 in protected mode; if you mean something else, then something else. 20:19:42 elliott: Oh. 20:19:47 fizzie: But, but I want real mode! 20:19:58 (correct far pointer overflow: 0x0001FFFF + 3 = 0x01010002) 20:20:01 Then you get segments and offsets and silly pointers. 20:20:01 elliott: Counting things the 8086 is derived *from*? 20:20:06 pikhq: NO 20:20:10 fizzie: ;__; 20:20:11 fizzie: realmode always has both near and far poitners 20:20:14 fizzie: But I don't wanna. 20:20:20 gas! <-- afaik gas doesn't do real-mode 20:20:23 elliott: Butbutbut 4-bit CPU! 20:20:41 Vorpal: of course it does, how do you think you get into protected mode? 20:20:44 pikhq, which one was that? 20:20:53 Vorpal: The Intel 4004. 20:20:59 elliott, using some hand written machine instructions 20:21:00 Vorpal: The first microprocessor. 20:21:05 wait, am I muddling far and huge? 20:21:15 Vorpal: ... no you don't 20:21:19 pikhq, 4 bits... that is a very limited address space 20:21:22 Vorpal: Gas has a .code16 directive nowadays; I don't think it's very real-mode-oriented, though. 20:21:24 elliott, okay 20:21:24 Vorpal: you can easily get into protected mode with gas 20:21:30 er 20:21:31 anyway, there are three sorts of pointer (16-bit, "32"-bit, "32"-bit with arithmetic corrected), the names keep changing around inconsistently 20:21:31 i think 20:21:34 i forget :D 20:21:49 elliott: gas uses a bizarre hack for that. 20:21:54 ais523_: bleargh. 20:22:08 "MS-DOS Debug can only access conventional memory,[2] which is the first 640K in an IBM PC." 20:22:08 :D 20:22:22 elliott: 10 segments is all you need! 20:22:28 ais523_: the author of DEBUG also wrote EDLIN <3 20:22:37 Vorpal: Yes, it is very very limited. 20:22:44 oh, and he wrote 86-DOS :P 20:22:47 elliott: they're very similar programs 20:23:05 pikhq, did it have banks or such? 20:23:14 Vorpal: It was a Harvard architecture. 20:23:24 ais523_: now he races rally cars, probably to forget about DOS 20:23:30 pikhq, only helps a tiny bit 20:24:02 Vorpal: Aaah. It had a wider address space, but 4-bit words. 20:24:22 Vorpal: it was the first (commercial) microprocessor 20:24:26 Vorpal: and also the first CPU on a chip 20:24:30 I don't think very many "8-bit" processors go with an 8-bit address space either. 20:24:43 Vorpal: 10 μm, 740 kHz 20:24:47 BCD 20:24:58 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/KL_National_INS4004.jpg 20:24:58 pic 20:25:17 hm 20:25:24 elliott, why BCD 20:25:30 Vorpal: it was common 20:25:35 ubiquitous, even 20:25:45 Anyway, what's this about a bizarre hack for going to protected mode with Gas? At least Linux header.S looks like regular 16-bit code with .code16, and I don't see why you couldn't continue all the way up to protected mode. (It does do the horrible C + gcc + .code16gcc trick, but that's beside the point here.) 20:25:47 elliott, yes but the space waste back then was utterly silly 20:26:42 Vorpal: It doesn't waste space if you just make all the corresponding number range limits smaller. 20:26:56 (And of course there's the trivial conversion to-fro decimal.) 20:27:00 So is any retro hackery doomed to segment hell? 20:27:07 I don't understand segments and I don't want to. 20:27:16 They're not *that* strange. 20:27:18 elliott: Segments are actually incredibly simple. 20:27:23 Yes, but still! 20:27:27 Okay fine, explain segments to me in a non-stupid way. 20:27:28 :P 20:27:33 Just remember that 0000:0010 is also 0001:0000, that's all. 20:27:40 fizzie, what 20:28:02 ais523_: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/SealGUI.png 32-bit dos gui 20:28:04 it's very simple, you have 8 hex digits 20:28:06 l o l 20:28:08 the last 4 is the number of 1s 20:28:08 fizzie, overlapping segments? 20:28:14 the first 4 is the number of 16s 20:28:16 Vorpal: That's what x86 real mode is. 20:28:22 ais523_: impressive (awful) 20:28:34 wow 20:28:35 Vorpal: (segment << 4) + offset, with 16-bit segments and offsets. 20:28:40 ais523_: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c1/QubeOS.png 32-bit multitasking FreeDOS GUI 20:28:58 fizzie, aaah 20:29:16 pikhq: Wait. IDE routines wouldn't need to worry about segments. Nor would FAT routines. 20:29:23 pikhq: Would even COM loading need to worry about it? 20:29:49 elliott: In effect, the 8086 has a 20-bit address space. As an optimization, you can use only 16 bits of address, with the rest coming from the segment register. The normal address is achieved from (segment << 4) + 16-bit-address. 20:29:50 elliott: It does have the nice feature that two far pointers to the same byte in memory may compare unequal if they use a different equivalent representation. 20:30:12 pikhq: is the segment register initialised to anything? 20:30:15 elliott: As a de-optimisation, when you want a larger pointer, instead of just using a normal address you just give the segment in addition to the 16-bit address. 20:30:23 elliott: If you're willing to restrict yourself to 64k of memory, you don't need to consider segments at all. 20:30:29 elliott: At what point? 20:30:36 elliott: By DOS? By the BIOS? By the CPU? 20:30:38 fizzie, some mmap() tricks could have that effect on a normal OS as well 20:30:39 pikhq: OS load 20:30:43 pikhq: my OS load, taht is 20:30:44 *that 20:30:45 fizzie: Well, COMs are 64k minus a few bytes, right? 20:30:55 elliott: Pretty sure the segment registers are 0. 20:31:01 elliott: the entire COM is blitted into memory, in a single segment 20:31:05 elliott: There's a code and a data segment register. 20:31:06 ais523_: right 20:31:10 and cs, ds, es, ss are all set to that segment 20:31:11 so I don't even need to worry about segments :) 20:31:16 really 20:31:21 it starts at 0x100 in the segment 20:31:27 ais523_: hmm, did people run out of .COM space often? 20:31:31 the first 0x100 is used for CP/M compatibility 20:31:32 Oh, and a stack segment register and a I-don't-remember register... 20:31:39 elliott: I did on occasion 20:31:46 "Extra segment." 20:31:46 ais523_: did people use the first 0x100 bytes? 20:31:59 probably, so long as they didn't need the CP/M emulation 20:32:01 ais523_: i mean, i have less than zero CP/M compatibility :) 20:32:05 elliott: There's a reason that .EXE was invented. 20:32:12 ais523_: and DOS compatibility for that matter 20:32:14 here's a bit of amazingness, if you have a COM file that is just a RET command 20:32:16 (At least I've always assumed E in ES is for Extra.) 20:32:23 ais523_: so I'm just wondering if loading stuff at 0 would be ok for programs 20:32:26 running it pops the 0 that DOS adds to the stack, so jumps to location 0 20:32:26 i mean, not those programs 20:32:28 but new prorgams 20:32:29 *programs 20:32:32 does it restrict any hackery? 20:32:35 pikhq: yeah -- bloated software :D 20:32:37 then that contains the INT command to exit the program 20:32:50 ais523_: i... love that 20:32:54 elliott: well, the program has to load at 0x100 in order for jumps to hit the right location 20:32:59 elliott: so do I 20:33:00 ais523_: wait, why would DOS push0 to the stack? 20:33:05 elliott: well, the program has to load at 0x100 in order for jumps to hit the right location <-- yes, but i have no compatibility 20:33:06 elliott: because otherwise that wouldn't work 20:33:12 i'm just asking if it opened up any fun trickery 20:33:13 *push 0 20:33:16 ais523_: for that sole reason? :D 20:33:19 ye[ 20:33:21 *yep 20:33:31 I exploited that 0 in SUUDA 20:33:40 ais523_, suuda? 20:33:40 ais523_: hmm, DOS couldn't run a program inside another program, right? 20:33:45 so exiting a program was basically "jmp shell" 20:33:45 blanking registers by popping it into them, then pushing it back 20:33:46 no? 20:33:55 elliott: it could system() style, but not fork() style 20:34:02 ais523_: hm, really? interesting 20:34:05 *hmm, 20:34:06 just by picking an unused segment and putting it there 20:34:11 DOS has a separate "terminate and stay resident" thing, though. 20:34:12 DOS handled adjusting the segment registers 20:34:15 ais523_: what if you ran out of segments? :D 20:34:17 fizzie: fuck that shit :) 20:34:20 Vorpal: self uu-decoding applications 20:34:24 ais523_, ah 20:34:27 ais523_: surely that was in a relatively recent DOS 20:34:31 much like the concept of self-unzipping applications 20:34:38 ais523_: not in DOS 1, 2 20:34:43 elliott: well, I wrote it with reference to a manual that covered DOS 1,2,3 20:34:49 ais523_: ugh 20:34:51 and I think it was a DOS 1 compatible prorgam 20:34:53 *program 20:34:56 ais523_: i'm trying to get a 3-page plus CMD os here! 20:35:10 elliott, don't go for DOS then 20:35:17 Vorpal: well i'm not implementing DOS 20:35:19 I'm implementing DOS 20:35:24 XD 20:35:28 the Dork's/Dumbfounding Operating System 20:35:34 if you want existing .COM files to run, load them at 0x100 just so that hardcoded JMP statements go to the right locations 20:35:39 ais523_: hmm, question: what does 0x4D 0x5A do in x86? 20:35:42 as machine instructions 20:35:44 >:D 20:35:54 ais523_: existing COM files won't run, they'll try all sorts of silly interrupts 20:36:05 elliott: Well, newer DOSes might well try loading the program into high memory (ZOMG 32BIT)... 20:36:24 elliott: IIRC, crashes the program 20:36:26 pikhq: no no no no no 20:36:31 elliott: dec bp, pop dx. 20:36:34 ais523_: darn 20:36:35 or at least, something implausible and undefined 20:36:38 ais523_: (it's the header for DOS executables) 20:36:47 MZ, initials of Mark Zbikowski, designer 20:36:49 I know, part of the reason it was picked was that nobody was likely to have used it deliberately 20:36:53 right 20:36:55 the other reason was that it was the person's initials 20:37:01 but they happened to not be particularly meaningful 20:37:07 ais523_: what about EH? :p 20:37:15 * ais523_ remembers that SUUDA executables always started XP_W 20:37:19 elliott: disassemble it, see what it does 20:37:25 ais523_: with *what*? 20:37:28 elliott: inc bp, dec ax. 20:37:30 most capital letters are stack manipulation commands, IIRC 20:37:33 Does DOSBox have DEBUG? 20:37:39 fizzie: Useful at all? :p 20:37:43 elliott, you could use gdb or objdump? 20:37:47 not by default, you can run it but it doesn't come with it 20:37:59 Vorpal: haha 20:38:01 really, there are loads of disassemblers around, thoguh 20:38:03 elliott: Probably not at the beginning of a program, no. 20:38:10 elliott, well objdump would work just fine 20:38:11 just echo -n EH > eh.com, then disassemble it 20:38:20 Vorpal: if you like using objdump... 20:38:28 elliott, nothing wrong with it? 20:38:33 fis@eris:~$ echo -n EH | ndisasm /dev/stdin 20:38:33 00000000 45 inc bp 20:38:33 00000001 48 dec ax 20:38:35 Like that. 20:38:43 I could sprunge objump --help now, but I won't. 20:38:45 fizzie: bah :P 20:38:50 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:39:00 elliott: the trick with objdump is, you only use one of the infinity options at a time 20:39:05 * elliott tries to convince objdump to read COMs 20:39:07 I could sprunge objump --help now, but I won't. <-- I know it, could be better, but nothing majorly wrong 20:39:07 (In related news, "disassemble stdin" is a bit silly command.) 20:39:13 so it doesn't take too much scanning to figure out the one you need 20:39:26 it thinks eh.com is truncated, so clearly i need to inform it of the format 20:39:31 hmm, inc bp dec ax is just changing uninitialised registers to other uninitialised values 20:39:52 elliott, well yes 20:39:55 (actually, I wouldn't be surprised if bp at least was initialised explicitly, and ax had a set value by coincidence due to the implementation of invoking programs) 20:40:01 Vorpal: care to tell me how? :p 20:40:07 elliott, sure 20:40:23 * elliott wonders how Vorpal interpreted that 20:40:41 hey, dubya wrote a book! 20:41:03 elliott: http://p.zem.fi/objdump-disasm 20:41:05 elliott, -b and -m iirc 20:41:24 Vorpal: my objdump has neither option 20:41:28 I'm not sure how to make it treat it as 16-bit code, though. 20:41:35 oh wait 20:41:35 it does 20:41:43 (Also it can't read /dev/stdin.) 20:41:50 (It's "not an ordinary file".) 20:41:52 ok, now how do I get it to output asm code in the sane syntax 20:41:53 :) 20:41:53 objdump -m i8086 -b binary -D tmp.com 20:41:54 elliott: objdump -i gives a list of supported input formats, but none of them seem to be DOS .COM, at least on this Linux system 20:41:56 elliott, that works for me 20:41:57 fizzie: i love how gnu tools do that 20:42:03 "it's not an ordinary file! aieee!" 20:42:06 ais523_: well, .COM has no format 20:42:13 Vorpal: still outputs in the bad format 20:42:17 ais523_, .com = binary 20:42:21 elliott, what bad format? 20:42:25 Vorpal: AT&T 20:42:26 Vorpal says "binary", that seems like a plausible name (this objdump doesn't support it) 20:42:27 elliott: "-M intel" 20:42:44 * elliott tries to remove the other cruft it outputs, gives up, fizzie: what was that one you used called? 20:42:52 ais523_: "-b binary -m i386 -M intel" gives intel-syntax 32-bit x86 asm out of a binary file. 20:42:54 What language is Sgeo in love with right now? 20:42:58 elliott, --help and see -M 20:42:59 Phantom_Hoover: undecided 20:43:03 elliott: ndisasm, it's part of nasm. 20:43:04 Vorpal: i used --help. 20:43:09 elliott, supposedly there is -M intel-mnemonic 20:43:12 * Vorpal tries 20:43:13 ais523_: do you think it'd be possible to write a DOS-ish kernel entirely with printable? :) 20:43:20 Vorpal: I've said "-M intel" twice already. 20:43:20 yep 20:43:29 elliott: obviously, SUUDA made /arbitrary executables/ printable 20:43:29 fizzie, he presumably ignores you 20:43:31 Well, thrice now. 20:43:35 lol 20:43:41 i like how Vorpal thinks fizzie was saying i didn't notice it 20:43:47 rather than fizzie saying that Vorpal didn't notice it 20:43:53 fizzie, ndisasm is helpful if you want to bother tinkering with offsets and a complete lack of knowledge of the object structure. 20:43:56 actually, I used it to make a simple text-printing loop with appended data printable 20:43:59 to make it true uudecoding 20:44:00 also: assuming i'd /ignore fizzie, despite him being high on the list of coolest and least annoying people here 20:44:11 elliott, I didn't notice it either. but nor did you I think 20:44:19 elliott: obviously, SUUDA made /arbitrary executables/ printable 20:44:24 ais523_: does it work without an OS underneath, though? 20:44:27 (and it wasn't really uucode; to keep things simple, it operated via a 6-bits-2-bits encoding) 20:44:28 you'd need that for a kernel 20:44:30 Phantom_Hoover: Well, that's exactly what is wanted here: direct disassembly of sequences of bytes. 20:44:31 Vorpal: I did 20:44:32 Vorpal: I used it 20:44:37 elliott, ok 20:44:38 I saw no reason to reply, you just kept going on. 20:44:42 elliott: it would have done, there were no system calls except the actual output of the letters 20:44:46 and that bit could easily have been changed 20:44:48 fizzie: ndisasm also accepts - 20:44:51 it was just pure 8086ism 20:44:52 fizzie, ah. 20:44:54 ais523_: Cool. 20:45:01 elliott, what are you up to? 20:45:03 fizzie: also ndisasm <(echo -n foo) :P 20:45:04 Phantom_Hoover: DOS! 20:45:11 ais523_, got a link to SUUDA? 20:45:12 err 20:45:17 yeah that was the spelling 20:45:20 Vorpal: not on this computer 20:45:30 let me see if the wireless is working on the other one yet 20:45:32 fizzie: now all I need is the documentation of a mnemonic to appear to the right of the diassembly :) 20:45:41 ais523_, you could easily type it over from there :P 20:45:48 I was going to 20:46:20 elliott, download intel pdfs? 20:46:28 really, I should have designed the thing to ignore newlines 20:46:31 Vorpal: those are huge and confusing, i just want a one-line summary 20:46:32 e.g. 20:46:32 but I didn't 20:46:33 elliott, or AMD, they have better docs 20:46:38 mov a, b -- move b to a 20:46:38 elliott, AMD docs are better 20:46:44 jmp a -- jump to a 20:46:46 of course i know those 20:46:48 but other ones 20:46:52 mov a, b -- move b to a 20:46:53 um 20:46:55 (note: it's self-modifying code, because none of the jump instructions happen to be printable) 20:46:55 and you 20:46:57 complain 20:47:01 elliott, nasm /used/ to have a fantastic one in appendix B of the docs. 20:47:01 about AT&T syntax 20:47:07 elliott, you FAIL :P 20:47:10 ffff it was a typo 20:47:11 shut up 20:47:25 Vorpal: wait what?: 20:47:27 that's intel 20:47:31 mov x, y -- x = y 20:47:34 i.e. move y to x 20:47:36 *you* fail 20:47:37 s/:$// 20:47:38 elliott, yes but see the comment 20:47:40 < elliott> I'm totally DOSing here. 20:47:41 Phantom_Hoover: used to? 20:47:42 But they stripped it out at some point around when they added 64-bit support. 20:47:44 elliott, you wrote "move b to a" 20:47:44 then use SP\ASM 20:47:48 Vorpal: indeed i did 20:47:49 elliott, that is the AT&T order 20:47:51 cpressey: wat 20:47:54 hmm, it's a bit long to retype 20:47:55 Vorpal: no it isn't 20:48:01 really, I should have written it in asm 20:48:03 which is an 8-line BAT file that I wrote, which calls DEBUG.COM 20:48:09 in Intel, "mov a, b" is "a = b" 20:48:13 is "move b to a" 20:48:18 yes 20:48:20 It used to be complete enough that you could basically hand-assemble with only appendix B, but now it just gives a table of instructions with no documentation. 20:48:20 cpressey: lawl 20:48:26 elliott, but the comment is written as AT&T order 20:48:30 elliott, the comment itself 20:48:32 Vorpal: ...no it isn't 20:48:37 elliott: http://catseye.tc/projects/sp_asm-1998.0716.zip 20:48:40 note: might not be 8 lines 20:48:42 i forget 20:48:45 it's short, is the point 20:48:58 elliott, yes writing it intel order would be "move to a from b" 20:48:59 cpressey: you crashed my archiver! /me unzips manually 20:49:05 Vorpal: asm != english 20:49:10 excellent 20:49:12 *burns 20:49:22 elliott, indeed, and AT&T syntax is closer to English 20:49:41 cpressey: non-zipbomb, interesting :p 20:49:49 Vorpal: so english is a nice basis for a programming language? enjoy your Perl 20:50:04 cpressey: do you strictly have to TYPE THE PROGRAM IN UPPERCASE 20:50:05 what we need is an IRC-friendlier asm syntax, for EgoBat/HackEgo 20:50:05 elliott, I prefer Plain English ;) 20:50:16 elliott: not strictly but THIS IS DOS SO YES 20:50:16 cpressey: it already does *gas magick* 20:50:19 just s/;/\n/ :P 20:50:25 Vorpal, AT&T syntax is such a horrible syntax for multiple reasons which are apparent to all those of us with even a molecule of sense. 20:50:28 cpressey: wow, asm.bat is terrible 20:50:35 but here's a printable Hello, World: XP_W^VH%35%DCPYXPH%=5%=CP[]UM#(UX%??t&* * * * ZR 1() !GFF=\ouU0_0<0^3L1L0^292L1^1I2L0Y1D1\3R3P0:031101013A0D0o313p21030D1J2@@A5 20:50:39 cpressey: it prints even when it works! that's so ununix! ;) 20:50:40 I hope I typed that correctly... 20:50:49 ais523_: if you didn't, nobody will begrudge you, dude :P 20:50:59 the A5 at the end is my initials 20:51:04 heh 20:51:09 ais523_: is it there for any reason? 20:51:22 yep, needed to pad one byte to make room for the initial stack even if memory was almost full 20:51:30 so that it crashes noisly rather than silently 20:51:35 cpressey: is empty.com one of those files that existed in every directory? 20:51:35 the @@ before that is a string terminator 20:51:40 oh, no, it comes with spasm 20:51:47 elliott: iirc empty.com is required for it to work 20:51:48 it's just zeroes, you zany flitwick 20:51:53 i think shelta has something like that 20:51:55 too 20:51:55 um does qemu run dos? 20:51:57 probably 20:52:00 anyone have a dos disk for me? 20:52:03 :p 20:52:07 FreeDOS? 20:52:11 but that's *illegal!* 20:52:12 Phantom_Hoover: boring 20:52:18 oh yeah. empty.com is the "buffer" into which the binary is written 20:52:27 cpressey: nope 20:52:30 cpressey: it runs debug on the new com 20:52:40 cpressey: basically, your program makes an empty com file 20:52:42 did mistype it, I just compared hashes 20:52:43 well, maybe it copies it to use it as a base 20:52:45 then does debug com log 20:52:51 why it doesn't just print out the log is beyond me 20:53:04 ais523_: heh 20:53:07 there must be *some* reason (note: this is fallacious) 20:53:26 cpressey: it does, but does debug really require a padded executable? 20:53:28 that would be absurd 20:53:33 ais523_: quick, what was the last great DOS? 20:54:11 no idea 20:54:19 cpressey: quick, what was the last great DOS? 20:54:37 elliott: you could try in DOSBox 20:54:43 and hopefully find the typo 20:54:52 ais523_: i could, but how boring is that? also i was going to try debug, not your silly thing, but ok :P 20:55:10 DOS 6.22 was pretty popular; it's the last pre-win9x one. 20:55:23 fizzie: "the last X" is rarely "the last great X" 20:55:35 I don't think it's ever been especially "great". 20:55:36 fizzie, why MS-DOS 20:55:44 DOS IS THE GREATEST 20:55:52 elliott: the last great DOS was Windows 3.11 20:55:53 by which i mean my dos ofc 20:55:58 cpressey: my other toyota is a car 20:56:03 ...wow, that was surprisingly awesome 20:56:17 Well, DOS Shell appeared in 4.0, and everyone agrees that it's very awesome. 20:56:24 ais523_: for a typo'd program, it sure executes properly 20:56:31 ais523_: "Hello, world!" 20:56:45 fizzie: what definition of awesome? :P 20:56:58 fizzie, what did DOS use before that? 20:56:58 oh, I did type it right 20:57:06 ais523_: newline problem when hashing? 20:57:08 stupid tcsh was stripping exclamation marks inside single-quoted strings 20:57:09 fizzie, why not PC-DOS or such? 20:57:20 ais523_: lawl tcsh 20:57:23 that doesn't even make sense, to anyone who knows how UNIX shells should work... 20:57:26 elliott: not my computer... 20:57:50 ais523_: in its defence, try [[echo "!x"]] in bash sometime 20:57:53 ok, that's double-quoted, but still 20:58:07 ais523_: also: note how it gets expanded *in the freaking command history* 20:58:09 elliott, bash doesn't do that in single quotes! 20:58:12 ais523_: so that you can't fix it 20:58:13 and you can turn it off 20:58:14 Vorpal: yes, but still... 20:58:36 anyway, all this needs now is an unzip algorithm and a shorter frontend 20:58:44 and it might actually be a useful method of packaging DOS executables 20:59:03 things that dosbox fails at: directories changing while it's running 20:59:11 elliott: indeed, in multiple ways 20:59:12 it doesn't notice new files are there even if you run a program... 20:59:16 it causes crazy timestamp skew 20:59:20 (such as "hello2" just now) 20:59:27 because it's not running fullspeed, so its clock gets out of synch with the filesystem around it 20:59:34 ha 20:59:46 ais523_: i think dosbox is pretty badly designed 20:59:47 elliott, why not use dosemu instead 20:59:53 Vorpal: who knows if that will work? 20:59:56 elliott: so do I 21:00:01 elliott, well it might 21:00:07 it does work, but with so many UI frustrations you wish for something better 21:00:14 * elliott tries dosemu 21:00:37 ais523_: I used to use it to play Monkey Island and ScummVM is so much better it isn't even funny. 21:00:51 cool, dosemu uses freedos. 21:00:52 elliott: I use it for compiling C-ITNERCAL 21:00:59 eww it's so fancy and bad 21:01:00 *INTERCAL 21:01:06 lol 21:01:12 alt-tabbing into it makes it press the tab key in the dos 21:01:13 not joking 21:01:17 ais523_, awesome typo 21:01:23 Vorpal: not really 21:01:26 Vorpal: not really 21:01:30 elliott: snap 21:01:31 ais523_, way it aloud 21:01:35 elliott, no need to echo him 21:01:41 Vorpal: it's still not particularly awesome 21:01:44 ais523_: i only typed those exact words because you did, tbh 21:01:47 just hard to pronounce 21:01:57 sometimes Vorpal needs a nuclear holocaust of "not really" 21:02:00 |goto print It's not hard to pronounce ITNERCAL 21:02:00 cpressey: It's not hard to pronounce ITNERCAL 21:02:11 |goto? 21:02:11 ais523_: omg u errored teh syntax!!1! 21:02:12 |goto archaeologists 21:02:12 elliott: omg u errored teh syntax!!1! 21:02:17 |goto print death 21:02:17 elliott: death 21:02:18 |goto quit 21:02:18 elliott: ?SYNTAX ERROR 21:02:22 I DISLIKE THIS BOT 21:02:35 hmm, what lang is ?SYNTAX ERROR from? 21:02:36 Forth? 21:02:40 ais523_: BASIC 21:02:44 omg, i just had the best 21:02:45 best 21:02:46 ever 21:02:46 which dialect? 21:02:50 hackego, right 21:02:51 but in DOS 21:02:53 discuss. 21:02:54 BASIC and FORTRAN will always be capitalized in my heart. 21:03:03 ais523_: Um... Applesoft, at least 21:03:13 there are hundreds, maybe thousands 21:03:16 so I have to ask 21:03:21 I grew up with BBC Basic 21:03:24 cpressey: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortran#Code_examples the reasonability of this code example actually scares me 21:03:27 I'm pretty sure not just Applesoft 21:03:28 and its beautiful error message "Mistake" 21:03:30 it manages to look nicer than C 21:03:39 which actually meant something along the lines of "Unknown identifier" 21:03:42 ais523_: i approve 21:03:49 ais523_: it implicitly makes all bugs into features 21:03:55 ais523_: I... may have to steal that one 21:04:01 * elliott looks at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortran#Code_examples again, shivers 21:04:04 FORTRAN IS MEANT TO SUCK 21:04:07 it had others too, but that was the most memorable one 21:04:20 although i'm not exactly sure what "write (*,'(a,g12.4)')" means 21:04:28 oh, formatting specifier 21:04:29 looks like 21:04:44 cpressey: I like how spasm programs need to end with Q 21:05:09 elliott, I find " real, dimension(:), allocatable :: points" a bit weird but apart from that it is indeed very straight-forward 21:05:12 eventually I'd like you to be able to configure the error messages storkbot'll send you, so you can reign in the annoyance 21:05:37 |~/errmsgs=silent 21:05:37 cpressey: silent 21:05:43 Vorpal: not really 21:05:46 doesn't do anything yet obv 21:05:50 elliott: FORTRAN (and the newer variant Fortran) are actually dying nowadays, due to C99 replacing them 21:05:55 Vorpal: dimension(:) obviously means "1D array" or so 21:05:59 elliott, hm 21:05:59 allocatable obviously means dynamically allocated 21:06:12 I'd expect dimension(::) for a 2D array, or something 21:06:13 in fact, at least one (possibly more) C99 feature exists only for the purpose of tempting FORTRAN users to use C99 instead 21:06:18 ais523_: *sniff* 21:06:18 elliott: yea SP\ASM is fantastic awful 21:06:20 ais523_: (what is it?) 21:06:25 elliott: the restrict keyword 21:06:25 cpressey: i dunno, i quite like it, i mean 21:06:29 cpressey: you could have documentation after q 21:06:29 elliott, I didn't say it was unintelligible. Just weird 21:06:34 ais523_: ha 21:06:39 compare the C99 types of memcpy and memmove, that makes it pretty obvious what it does 21:06:45 (if you didn't know already) 21:06:50 ais523_: BUT THAT'S LIKE OPTIMISATION DUDE 21:06:51 well, "fantasticawful" should maybe be a newspeakish protmanteau for what i mean 21:06:53 YOUCAN'T INSULT OUR OPTIMISATION 21:06:54 but it lets C optimise to the level that Fortran was optimising 21:07:02 yeah i do not like dosmeu 21:07:04 *dosemu 21:07:17 cpressey: what dos did you write sp\asm on? :p 21:07:26 elliott: i.... Windows 95 21:07:33 srsly 21:07:35 cpressey: Son, I am disappoint. 21:07:40 so like DOS 7.0 technically or something 21:07:49 elliott: fun question: in Fortran, assuming rand() is a function that returns a random float, what's the value of rand()/rand()? 21:07:57 cpressey: 6, IIRC 21:07:57 ais523_: 1 21:08:02 elliott: indeed 21:08:09 ais523_: if it was something random, you wouldn't have said that :) 21:08:10 textually identical subexpressions are only evaluated once 21:08:14 ais523_: i like it 21:08:19 -!- MF_Williams has joined. 21:08:27 i mean, i actually do like it, but moreso in a language without rand() 21:08:28 hi MF_Williams 21:08:48 -!- augur has joined. 21:08:50 Fortran seems to have a culture of doing unsafe optimisations and making them the users's fault if they break things 21:08:58 ais523_, hah 21:09:03 ha, DOS is up to 8.0 21:09:07 and was last released in late 2000 21:09:12 elliott, heh 21:09:17 elliott, was 8.0 for ME? 21:09:20 Vorpal: presumably with Windows Me 21:09:21 hi 21:09:23 *Me 21:09:26 (to you) 21:09:32 MS-DOS 8.0 21:09:32 elliott, hah a few seconds before you :P 21:09:32 ais523_: I'm tempted to ask about if rand() happens to return 0. 21:09:32 Version 8.0 (WinME) - Integrated drivers for faster Windows loading. 21:09:33 Version 8.0 (WinXP) - DOS boot disks created by XP and later contain files from WinME. The internal DOS is still 5.0 21:09:39 hi 21:09:39 Vorpal: still 5.0 inside :) 21:09:46 fizzie: I don't actually know 21:09:46 6 appears to just be 5 + software 21:09:46 im new on linux 21:09:50 :( 21:09:50 Vorpal: but with long file names, fat32, etc. 21:09:55 MF_Williams: ok 21:09:59 MF_Williams: do you know what this channel is about? 21:10:04 MF_Williams: you'll either get used to it in a while, or use something else, it's not a big issue 21:10:14 i got a problem with windows xp pro 21:10:35 what? 21:10:40 "Below you'll find several different bootable CD images in ISO format for MS-DOS." 21:10:42 that's just wrong 21:10:49 MF_Williams: this channel is about esoteric programming languages 21:10:54 MF_Williams: out of curiosity, what made you think it was about linux? 21:10:59 -!- MF_Williams has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:11:06 looks like we'll never know 21:11:11 ais523_: DOS3.3.iso (1.6 MB) 21:11:15 ais523_: discuss how utterly wrong this is 21:11:21 elliott: that's a very small CD... 21:11:35 MS-DOS 4.x            - includes a graphical/mouse interface. 21:11:36 Version 4.01 (OEM) - IBM patched Version 4.00 before Microsoft released it. 21:11:37 dammit IBM! :p 21:11:47 elliott: You say "and software" so disparagingly: it's not just any software! There's DBLSPACE (well, DRVSPACE after the... unpleasantness), the best way to break a win3.1 installation. 21:11:49 and really, it's the BIOS that determines whether to boot off a floppy or CD 21:11:57 fizzie: oh, I remember that 21:11:57 fizzie: bah, 5.0 represent! 21:12:10 fizzie: it included the full-screen editor and NO ONLINE HELP/DISK COMPRESSION/ANTIVIRUS 21:12:15 what sort of compression software compresses parts of different files together sometimes, then has editing one of them also edit the other? 21:12:20 fizzie: also, 6.21 removed DBLSPACE 21:12:39 the documentation suggested copying and deleting both files in order to un-crosslink them 21:12:43 elliott: Yes, but 6.22 brought back DRVSPACE. 21:12:57 fizzie: I don't suppose you have a floppy marked MS-DOS 5.0? 21:13:02 On your computertron. 21:13:03 Cough./ 21:13:06 s/\/$// 21:13:28 hmm, I visit microsoft.com with Firefox on Linux, and it advertises IE8 to me 21:13:37 never mind, i've found 5.0 21:13:40 and then /that/ page advertises Windows 7 to me, so that I can run IE8 21:13:40 on three floppies 21:13:42 I don't think so; I have images of some different 6.x versions. There might be a physical floppy somewhere, but no drives. 21:13:58 6.22 came on three floppies too, I think. 21:14:00 dear xfce: it is not your right to put files in my ~ that do not start with a . 21:14:03 cease immediately 21:14:12 i sometimes think people come on irc actually expecting to not converse 21:14:15 elliott@dinky:~$ rm -rf Music/ Pictures/ Public/ Templates/ Videos/ Downloads/ Documents/ Desktop/ 21:14:24 and Desktop magically reappears 21:14:25 fuck that 21:15:15 wow, crosslinks are such an ancient problem that even via Google I can't find a description of what they are, any more 21:15:23 ais523_: heh 21:15:29 elliott: rename it to lowercase by mistake, I did that once 21:15:46 [[Yes, the "Desktop" directory will still be there, but it won't be displayed. You're not forced to use it. Just remove it's contents and it'll be nothing more than an empty directory.]] 21:15:53 Ubuntu decided that as it couldn't find /home/ais523/Desktop, what it should really use instead was /home/ais523/ 21:15:56 what is it with these morons thinking that ~ means desktop-environment-share? 21:15:58 which was an interesting decision 21:16:08 ais523_: interesting, that works! 21:16:18 ais523_: next step: mv desktop /dev/null :) 21:16:22 hmm, wait 21:16:23 elliott: it blows up on your next boot 21:16:24 wow, crosslinks are such an ancient problem that even via Google I can't find a description of what they are, any more <-- any idea of what they used to be? 21:16:26 I don't know 21:16:31 if I hardlink Desktop to /dev/null... 21:16:33 Vorpal: a sort of filesystem problem 21:16:37 ais523_: ugh, no, Desktop just reappeared 21:16:47 elliott: can you even hardlink to a character special? 21:16:53 ln: creating hard link `Desktop/null' => `/dev/null': Invalid cross-device link 21:16:54 ais523_: :( seems not 21:16:59 * elliott tries a softlink 21:17:05 ais523_, any more details? 21:17:07 elliott: you could mknod a /dev/null clone there 21:17:07 elliott@dinky:~$ ln -s /dev/null Desktop 21:17:14 ais523_: Desktop is a directory, think about this for a second and tell me why 21:17:19 Vorpal: not really; they tended to happen on compressed drives, but I'm not sure why 21:17:31 ais523_, heh 21:17:40 elliott: are you referring to the fact that you created the link /in/ the directory? 21:17:41 Win95 came on 13 floppies; something like Office came on an absurd number of 'em (>20?). 21:17:48 "For info on modifying the XDG_DESKTOP_DIR, see http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/xdg-user-dirs .  All of this is set in the default xinitrc for Xfce, located @ /etc/xdg/xfce4/xinitrc" 21:17:49 aha 21:17:59 Vorpal: also, you could fix them by hand by copying both linked files, then deleting the originals, then renaming them back into place 21:18:23 this gives some clue as to what the error actually was, but not enough 21:18:35 ais523_: I DBLSPACEd my win3.x system disk, and it made win.com just show the logo, eat a little chunk off the corner, then hang. 21:19:02 aha, here we go: http://cquirke.mvps.org/9x/scandisk.htm#Crosslink 21:19:23 ais523_: you put everything in ~/research, right? third-party 21:19:27 I wonder how on earth a filesystem can get into that state in the first place 21:19:29 elliott: yep 21:19:36 unless I modify it so extensively that it's effectively mien 21:19:38 *mine 21:19:45 ais523_: "Note: To disable a directory, point it to the homedir." 21:19:45 oh, also, unless it's binary-only 21:19:46 yes! 21:19:51 ais523_: yet another example of stellar freedesktop.org design... 21:19:52 i am running modplug tracker under linux 21:19:55 i feel at home again. 21:19:56 -+( a r c a d i a )+- 21:20:01 necros was always good 21:20:05 whoops, i forgot to readd my ignores 21:20:09 e.g. Neverwinter Nights is ~/nwn, not ~/research/nwn 21:20:15 there we go 21:20:16 noise removed 21:20:19 how cute 21:20:20 ais523_: heh 21:20:27 ais523_: I'd put that in ~/local/neverwinter-nights 21:20:37 ais523_: or even /opt/neverwinter-nights 21:20:51 ~/research is for thirdparty source, and binaries I compile myself 21:20:56 but that's still most of the thirdparty stuff I own 21:21:04 ais523_: my architecture is a bit different 21:21:07 I tried to run OpenCP for cubic playe nostalgisms, but it kept crashing. 21:21:09 ~/saved/YYYY-MM 21:21:11 ais523_: everything goes in there 21:21:19 or maybe ~/keep, it depends 21:21:26 ais523_: everything that i didn't make, that is 21:21:33 installation ISOs, source trees... 21:21:53 (a good example: Enigma's at ~/research/enigma/svn/enigma/trunk/..., but my "dot directory" for the development version's at ~/enigma-devel, with the stable version having its config at ~/.enigma) 21:21:54 fizzie: Playe! 21:22:04 elliott: Rrrr. 21:22:23 elliott: I also have a separate category ~/research/bulky for things that are very large and don't really need backing up, like gcc tarballs 21:22:37 or my compiletree for clang 21:22:43 ais523_: I am still gawping at this: "Note: To disable a directory, point it to the homedir." 21:23:08 elliott: if you do that for the desktop, it just projects your homedir onto the desktop 21:23:32 ais523_: i don't have my desktop visible 21:23:44 # Format is XDG_xxx_DIR="$HOME/yyy", where yyy is a shell-escaped 21:23:44 # homedir-relative path, or XDG_xxx_DIR="/yyy", where /yyy is an 21:23:44 # absolute path. No other format is supported. 21:23:45 WJW 21:23:47 not even real globs 21:24:00 wait, why would your desktop be a glob? 21:24:04 ais523_: i mean 21:24:07 not even real variable expansion 21:24:11 you can't say /foo/$HOME/... 21:24:12 it's just a cheat 21:24:30 elliott: probably because the variables aren't sanely known when they need to be 21:24:42 heh, you can set xfce to show minimised windows as icons on the desktop 21:24:42 what happens if you change your homedir in /etc/passwd while logged in, I wonder? 21:24:51 elliott: win3.1 did that 21:25:00 in fact, it was the only thing on the desktop, but the backgroudn 21:25:02 *background 21:25:37 the help file advised you used a little 16x16 repeating black and (insert one other color here) pattern as the background; you could use an image, but it might make you run out of memory 21:25:44 homedir on desktop is not all that bad; I used to have that under intrepid 21:25:54 but to force you to do it is weird 21:25:58 you must have a much neater homedir than me 21:26:00 ais523_: new shells will be affected 21:26:12 ais523_: why one other colour? 21:26:13 cheater99: hmm, only new login shells? 21:26:16 ais523_: it encourages me to keep it tidy! 21:26:16 ais523_: everything in linux userspace runs under a shell, as i understand. 21:26:19 elliott: you could choose which 21:26:21 ais523_: but why? 21:26:24 ais523_: checkerboards are ugly :P 21:26:31 cheater99: yep, but shells can choose whether they're login shells or not 21:26:39 ais523_: doesn't matter 21:26:46 really, it rereads $HOME every time? 21:26:49 ais523_: existing shells are existing shells, they have an $HOME 21:26:56 well it's an env variable 21:26:56 There was also a nice pixel-twiddler pattern editor for the background. 21:26:59 why wouldn't it generatei t? 21:27:02 *it 21:27:03 |goto print (print x) 21:27:03 elliott: (print x) 21:27:07 hmm, that doesn't make sense, I've done a sudo -u to a different user before now without changing $HOME 21:27:17 so it's inheriting $HOME, not rereading it from /etc/passwd 21:27:30 fizzie: I spent hours with that thing 21:27:30 |print (print hi) 21:27:30 elliott: (print hi) 21:27:30 i think you want su 21:27:33 |goto goto print (print hi) 21:27:33 elliott: (print hi) 21:27:35 cheater99: no I don't 21:27:41 the account I'm sudoing to doesn't have a password 21:27:43 ais523_: why are you feeding the troll? 21:27:45 so su wouldn't accomplish anything 21:27:46 not sure what you're trying to do then 21:27:57 elliott: because syfm! 21:28:03 cheater99: how would you suggest opening a shell as, say, www-data? going via root? 21:28:09 (and/or extreme idiot, it doesn't particularly matter which) 21:28:11 ais523_: just a sec 21:28:41 cpressey: so let's see, @foo is a server variable? 21:28:45 "sudo -u www-data" bash is the easy method 21:28:51 elliott: yes 21:28:53 umm, "sudo -u www-data bash" 21:28:54 |print @foo 21:28:54 elliott: @foo 21:28:54 |@bar 21:28:55 cpressey: 21:29:00 ah 21:29:01 # su netdisco 21:29:01 netdisco@laptop:/home$ 21:29:03 |@foo=3 21:29:03 elliott: 3 21:29:03 |print [@foo] 21:29:03 cpressey: 3 21:29:03 |@foo 21:29:04 elliott: 3 21:29:12 |@foo=goto print hi 21:29:12 elliott: goto print hi 21:29:12 cheater99: you were root, that's cheating 21:29:18 |[@foo] 21:29:18 elliott: hi 21:29:20 cpressey: :D 21:29:25 |@foo=print [@foo] 21:29:25 elliott: print goto print hi 21:29:27 $ cd ~ 21:29:27 netdisco@laptop:~$ pwd 21:29:28 /home/netdisco 21:29:29 |@foo=goto print [@foo] 21:29:29 elliott: goto print print goto print hi 21:29:31 cpressey: disapprove 21:29:35 |@foo=goto print [ 21:29:35 elliott: goto print [ 21:29:41 |@bar=@foo] 21:29:41 elliott: @foo] 21:29:43 |@foo@bar 21:29:44 elliott: omg u errored teh syntax!!1! 21:29:45 ais523_: just saying, that shows how it doesn't "inherit" $HOME 21:29:48 |[@foo][@bar] 21:29:49 elliott: goto print [ 21:29:51 |~storkbot/BRA 21:29:51 cpressey: [ 21:29:52 bah 21:29:54 |~storkbot/KET 21:29:54 cpressey: ] 21:29:55 cheater99: well, exactly, it's /su/ that sets $HOME 21:30:00 |~storkbot/BRA=foo 21:30:00 elliott: ?SYNTAX ERROR 21:30:02 aww 21:30:04 and the shell inherits it from su 21:30:12 elliott: you can't set others' variables! 21:30:16 that would be HACKING! 21:30:16 cpressey: BAH 21:30:16 ais523_: is it? 21:30:29 |hd 1 2 3 21:30:29 elliott: 1 21:30:32 |tl 1 2 3 21:30:32 elliott: 2 3 21:30:40 By default, `su' does not change the current directory. It sets the environment variables `HOME' and `SHELL' from the password entry for USER, and if USER is not the super-user, sets `USER' and `LOGNAME' to USER. By default, the shell is not a login shell. 21:30:45 copied straight from "info su" 21:30:46 elliott: oh, you're reading the source! 21:30:50 cpressey: how the fuck did you quine the pastie number? 21:30:59 cpressey: make a pastie, use the number after that, pastie, hope it worked? 21:31:00 elliott: pastie lets you edit 21:31:03 lol 21:31:04 cheat 21:31:14 elliott: that's why it's not lua-formatted :( 21:31:15 yes, when i do sudo -u netdisco bash, it uses the outer user's $HOME 21:31:19 cpressey: ooh, i just realised something 21:31:19 you can only use the std formats on edit 21:31:22 bastards! 21:31:32 but i was wondering if sudo is actually what sets variables 21:31:34 hmm 21:31:35 cpressey: in my hash-pastebin, that'd be equivalent to finding a string containing its own hash :D 21:31:42 cpressey: of course, you could just do read($0).hash 21:31:46 to get the URL from inside the source 21:32:02 cpressey: or even build a quine, and then hash that, in case you don't have file IO 21:32:04 and then run it, ofc 21:32:14 elliott: I wonder if there are any known attacks to, say, find strings that contain their own md5 21:32:19 cpressey: there's an api 21:32:23 cpressey: you could probably post the form manually :P 21:32:28 Note that the default behavior for the environment is the 21:32:28 following: 21:32:28 The $HOME, $SHELL, $USER, $LOGNAME, $PATH, and $IFS environment 21:32:28 variables are reset. 21:32:29 ais523_: i would very much like that 21:32:32 that seems to be a sort of hash-breaking that isn't normally studied 21:32:38 i don't think that exactly means "su sets $HOME" 21:32:40 ais523_: there was some reddit-esque idiocy a while back where people tried to find hex-hash quines 21:32:46 cheater99: that's what the -l option does 21:32:48 ais523_: apparently thinking that hashes natively outputted hex 21:32:56 ais523_: and that this was at all feasible to do if we just SEARCHED REALLY HARD 21:33:01 but that was just a quine, not a quine plus extra 21:33:06 < elliott> ais523_: apparently thinking that hashes natively outputted hex 21:33:06 ais523_: no 21:33:11 ais523_: that's written further down 21:33:12 There's a sudo flag (-h) to set $HOME to the target user's home; otherwise it doesn't touch it. 21:33:13 ah 21:33:22 perhaps we have different su implementations 21:33:28 Sorry, -H. 21:33:28 cpressey: well they didn't bother to try and hex a base-256 version of it 21:33:33 which is probably more likely to work 21:33:36 i'm on ubunix 21:33:36 fizzie: which su are you talking about? 21:33:44 (ubuntu) 21:33:45 this one's on CentOS 21:33:51 ais523_: fizzie said sudo 21:33:56 ah, misread 21:34:05 CAVEATS 21:34:05 This version of su has many compilation options, only some of which may 21:34:05 be in use at any particular site. 21:34:07 that makes sense, sudo doesn't set $HOME in my experience 21:34:24 sudo doesn't set anything fwik 21:34:24 ais523_: sudo not setting $HOME is the cause of the .Xauthority problem, I think 21:34:33 hmm, perhaps 21:34:46 ais523_: because it puts it in the wrong place and now root ownz yur X 21:34:46 although it makes sense that www-data or whatever can't pop up windows on /my/ desktop 21:34:51 so, if i have this funny little application switcher panel in ubuntu at the bottom 21:34:54 ais523_: no, that works fine 21:34:58 ais523_: it's just that stuff can break afterwards 21:35:03 due to your ~/.Xauthority being written to 21:35:04 is there a way to tile it up vertically and have a small paner with launcher icons? 21:35:05 but owned by another user 21:35:10 like in windows? 21:35:12 which can break X on the next boot 21:35:17 i'm not sure exactly, I just know it's retarded 21:35:28 i could *never* figure out how to do it. 21:35:35 gah, ~/Desktop magically reappeared even after configuring everything 21:35:47 cheater99: the launcher icons you can do just by dragging them from the main menu onto the space just to the left of the application switcher (you have to be pretty accurate); the rest, I don't know how to do 21:36:01 let's try that 21:36:02 thanks 21:36:41 elliott: write a 0-byte file there and chmod 000 it 21:36:54 that'll learn xfce 21:36:54 elliott: did you try mknodding /dev/null onto the location? 21:36:58 ahh ok 21:37:12 ais: ok it sort of works, however: my panel is 5 rows high 21:37:22 and this makes the icons super-big, and they line up in 1 row only 21:37:30 not small and on top of each other 21:37:43 hmm, I'm not sure what to do about that either; configurability was never GNOME's strongpoint 21:37:49 ais523_: no, I tried to set the xdg thing manually 21:37:51 it seems to have listened now 21:37:52 thank god 21:37:57 elliott: mknod ~/Desktop b 1 3 21:38:04 create your own /dev/null wherever you like! 21:38:16 ais523_: that seems a little... severe 21:38:35 i'd feel like i was walking in a minefield 21:38:36 (note: this may require root privileges; typing the wrong numbers may end up overwriting random partitions, so make sure you get the right ones first) 21:38:37 does anyone know a bash function to output the current prompt? 21:38:41 umm, probably c 1 3 21:38:42 not $PS1, that doesn't "render" it 21:38:47 elliott: newline 21:38:54 ais523_: ...to stdout 21:39:06 that's stdout, isn't it? 21:39:15 ais523_: it's not something i can capture from within bash 21:39:23 start a new bash 21:39:27 capture that 21:39:31 aha, -i seems to help 21:39:33 using... script 21:39:42 yeah, gnome is sort of crappy like that 21:39:44 cpressey: I was about to say that 21:39:44 elliott@dinky:~$ echo echo hi | bash -i 2>&1 | head -n -1 | cat -v 21:39:45 ^[]0;elliott@dinky: ~^Gelliott@dinky:~$ echo hi 21:39:45 hi 21:39:53 now to filter out the gunk 21:40:00 aha 21:40:02 ais523_: I used to run a "dd if=/dev/full of=/dev/null" for a while every now and then to balance things out, but it never seemed to help. 21:40:02 TERM=dumb 21:40:05 cheater99: probably the easiest way to discover is to start a GNOME vs. KDE flamewar, somewhere, and use it as an example of KDE's superiority 21:40:21 haha 21:40:22 :-)) 21:40:32 what was that gnome configuration app? 21:40:36 |@foo=foo 21:40:37 cpressey: foo 21:40:41 cheater99: gconf-editor 21:40:43 |tl[tl[@foo]] 21:40:43 cpressey: o 21:40:49 |@foo=fox 21:40:49 cpressey: fox 21:40:51 |tl[tl[@foo]] 21:40:51 cpressey: x 21:40:51 yeah, just came up with it =) thanks 21:40:54 you have to put the { on a different line to the foo () to declare a function in bash, right? 21:40:55 because Gnome thinks Windows-style registries are, despite all appearances, a good idea 21:41:05 ais523_: so does xfce, although lessso 21:41:06 ais523_: also kde 21:41:10 if it ever really catches on, we'll have malicious adverts advertising gconf cleaners 21:41:12 ais523_: (kde's just happens to serialise to plain text) 21:41:20 elliott: so does Windows' 21:41:21 ais523_: (but modifying it is lol) 21:41:29 ais523_: true 21:41:46 elliott: argh, I've just been reminded of the worst hack in my life 21:41:48 this thing is SO much like windows registry 21:41:57 they should have named it gregistry 21:42:13 when I was young, and Innocent, and Microsoft was all I knew, and I had a buggy 32-bit compiler 21:42:16 ais523_: haha, i hadn't read your comment before i said that 21:42:32 sprunge-cmd () { 21:42:33 echo "$1" | TERM=dumb bash -i 2>&1 | head -n -1 | sprunge 21:42:33 } 21:42:33 behold 21:42:34 I was writing 16-bit programs, and Excel programs, and 32-bit programs, which needed to communicate with each other 21:42:41 ugh, syntax error 21:42:55 ais523_: what sort of music are you into? 21:43:11 ais523_: uh oh 21:43:25 and instead of using the normal IPC methods, I used system() equivalents (go go WinExec()!) and passed arguments and return values either in win.ini, or the registry 21:43:39 haha 21:43:41 nice! 21:43:45 cheater99: generally classical, and computer game music 21:44:02 dear god 21:44:10 elliott: ? 21:44:18 ais523_: your hack 21:44:23 yes, it was that awful 21:44:28 Things the world needs: An ANSI-colour-supporting pastebin. 21:44:32 fizzie: Get on it! :P 21:44:35 in my state of youthful innocence, I was sort-of worried it would burn a hole in the hard disk, though 21:44:59 elliott: What's especially great about your sprunge-cmd is that if you want to cancel, it's really effing difficult. 21:45:07 oh no, it's worse, I just remembered what I used it /for/ 21:45:57 elliott: I can add that to zpaste if you wish, but it's not exactly a public service. Also, so many programs tend to disable colors when they sniff the output isn't to terminal. (I guess most have flags for it, though.) 21:46:04 I was writing a computer game (in Excel; I was once better at VBA than any mortal should be, not that that's a particularly high bar...), and wanted a multiplayer mode 21:46:14 but both people were playing at the same computer, both watching the screen 21:46:26 fizzie: Yeah, that's irritating though :P 21:46:39 Gregor: Why would you want to cancel, apart from being a nazi? 21:46:46 ais523_: ahahahhhh 21:46:50 so the program in question made those images that can only be seen through a red/blue filter and pasted them onto the clipboard 21:46:54 elliott: ls ~/allMyGayPorn OH SHIT NOOOO 21:46:55 ais523_: i like you 21:46:56 ais523_: a.ma.zing. 21:47:05 and Excel pasted them from there, the idea was that only one of the people would have a red filter, the other would have a blue filter 21:47:13 Gregor: So don't publicise the URL :P 21:47:18 but it didn't really work, because all the blue filters I had access to were crappy and you couldn't see the text anway 21:47:45 it was still a nice, although faintly ridiculous, idea, though 21:47:49 ais523_: you are a bad person 21:48:15 (other uses involved extracting the volume label of the hard disk for trivial-DRM purposes, which apparently can be done via Win32 but not Win16) 21:48:22 elliott: I could have a "run-in-zpaste" thing that'd allocate a pseudo-tty and paste that, maybe; then you'd just "zpaste --run ls" instead of "ls | zpaste". I'll try to remember to think of it at a more opportunate moment. 21:48:43 fizzie: So basically script(1). :P 21:48:51 fizzie: It's okay, my pastebin will be totally better. 21:49:01 It'll have blackjack. 21:49:09 ais523_: In win16, couldn't you just run the dos command to get the label, and pipe that to a temporary file? 21:49:09 and hookers 21:49:16 Actually, screw the pastebin. 21:49:25 omg, i'm going to #linux 21:49:26 what's the program that copies stdin to the X clipboard? 21:49:30 i bet this will be terrible 21:49:31 fizzie: this is the sort of disaster that happens when you grow up without knowing of the existence of pipes 21:49:35 Gregor: Indeed, that is what it will let you do. That is the purpose of the hookers. 21:49:42 really, people say that UNIX is bad, it has nothing on Windows 21:49:50 you don't even think "surely there's a better way", it's all you're used to 21:49:50 -!- Velmont has joined. 21:50:01 Velmont is Knuth himself 21:50:06 you can tell by the hostname 21:50:18 wouldn't the knuth be ~before~ the @ in that case? 21:50:19 ais523_: i'm doing exactly what you told me 21:50:25 ais523_: expect, i'll use windows 21:50:26 also, I have no idea what the emphasis there is 21:50:27 since windows can do that 21:50:30 NO SHUSH 21:50:40 since when did I use tildes for emphasis? 21:50:44 ais523_: come to #linux 21:50:58 aha, xsel, thanks nobody for telling me 21:51:03 ais523_: Knuth is so badass he has his own hostname. Which isn't much of an accomplishment, but ignore that. 21:51:05 elliott: lol 21:51:18 -!- augur_ has joined. 21:51:29 elliott: if you're not careful, I'll start surrounding all my comments with hyphens again 21:51:32 augur_ is Agent 129. You can tell by the IP address. 21:51:43 ais523_: wait what 21:51:53 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:51:57 (this has been verified by experiment to be one of the creepiest things you can do on IRC without actual real-world knowledge of someone's circumstances) 21:52:05 Oklopol is here. 21:52:13 ais523_: ohh, that, yes 21:52:22 ais523_: -You're sitting on a chair.- 21:52:23 Velmont: not obviously 21:52:34 Velmont is in .no 21:52:47 so perhaps Velmont is a Norwegian friend of oklopol's 21:52:53 elliott: The correct name is .nolandia 21:52:54 hmm, perhaps 21:52:58 although, really, someone who capitalises the o in oklopol can't be oklopol's friend 21:52:59 oklopol is great, just not here right now 21:53:01 that's too horrible 21:53:04 and offensive 21:53:05 and wrong 21:53:08 and Velmont should feel bad 21:53:09 Perhaps oklopols fly to Norway for winter. 21:53:10 ais523_: what's creepy about hyphens? 21:53:11 elliott: perhaps oklopol capitalises it in real life? 21:53:20 olsner: -just read several pages of someone doing this- 21:53:21 ais523_: Oklopol Howeveryouspellhislastname 21:53:27 even in his realname field he had it lowercase 21:53:27 -it has a sort of ominous feel to it- 21:53:28 Gregor: no no, im agent 128 21:53:32 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur. 21:53:33 Oklopol: like INTERPOL, except it's only for Oklahoma. 21:53:34 ais523_: you have to capitalise and punctuate. 21:53:36 elliott: omniovorol, IIRC 21:53:42 olsner: -Just read several pages of someone doing this.- 21:53:44 Oklo Pol, son of Klo Pol. 21:53:49 olsner: -It has a sort of ominous feel to it.- 21:53:59 olsner: -elliot and I have both done it, it just gets creepier and creepier as time goes on- 21:54:03 I only know his real name, I asked him for his nick and he didn't tell me about the capitalization. 21:54:05 *-elliott- 21:54:06 ais523_: yeah but i spelled it wrong last i checked 21:54:09 ais523_: I HATE YOU FOR MY NAME EVER 21:54:17 Velmont: what's his real name again? I forget 21:54:27 elliott: double t at the end of a word is hard to type... 21:54:33 ais523_: for some definition of hard 21:55:43 No, I guess that would be OKLAPOL. 21:55:55 Homapol 21:57:12 yay i finally got my commands working 21:57:13 http://sprunge.us/eALI 21:57:19 got that url in my clipboard by: 21:57:21 elliott@dinky:~$ sprunge-cmd tree -I esoteric | copy 21:57:44 there is something so wrong-seeming about having that copy command 21:57:58 ais523_: FUCK YOU DOS 21:58:00 clipboard's a GUI thing, not a shell thing, in my mind 21:58:06 ais523_: it's useful, though 21:58:09 terribly useful 21:58:17 ais523_: as is "paste" 21:58:21 $ paste | cat -v 21:58:22 or whatever 21:58:32 who are the cat-v people again? 21:58:37 ais523_: it goes a small way to integrating the silly GUI rubbish into the nice linguistic command processing stuff 21:58:42 (also, less > cat-v for viewing binaries) 21:58:46 ais523_: cat-v.org is uriel, Plan 9 + libertarian + etc 21:58:49 *etc. 21:58:55 oh right, uriel 21:59:00 ais523_: I don't like -v, but I use "cat -v" as a single atomic command 21:59:10 ais523_: I might alias it to "vis", which was the 8th Edition Unix name for it 21:59:11 it's very ironic to name a Plan 9 website after cat -v , isn't it? 21:59:18 ais523_: (except it output it slightly different -- \xxx in octal -- but whatever) 21:59:29 ais523_: well the "name" of the site is "cat -v Considered Harmful" 21:59:36 Velmont, do you like coding in Python? 21:59:36 sorry, *cat-v 21:59:40 which is even more self-referential 21:59:49 ais523_: and the "harmful" section is titled "cat -v" 21:59:53 one of these names that means the opposite when abbreviated? 21:59:59 ais523_: so i think there's more than a bit of irony/just plain reference going on here. 21:59:59 cpressey: Yes. 22:00:05 wow, a genuine crazy person 22:00:07 hi Velmont! 22:00:28 but Python is brilliant! 22:00:33 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:00:35 hmm, tha's a really bad way of pretending it's not me saying it 22:00:39 *that's 22:00:47 ais523_: it serves 22:00:57 ais523_: you need 22:00:58 duh 22:00:58 :P 22:01:06 and no need for , because that's what all your lines start with 22:01:15 -Python is brilliant- 22:01:19 everything's implicitly closed at end-of-line, obviously 22:01:21 elliott: I know, it doesn't really work 22:01:21 or rather, reset to defaults 22:01:23 cpressey: aargh, stop it! 22:01:24 -Don't you agree?- 22:01:36 ais523_: I can see how that could get awful. 22:02:28 it's a reference to The Baron, who was a player in an email game that elliott and I each also used to play 22:02:36 he did that in every message he sent, it was really creepy 22:02:48 -!- wareya has joined. 22:02:57 ais523_: http://quick-lounge.sourceforge.net/screenshots.html ! 22:03:21 ais523_: wasn't it A Nomic he played in? 22:03:24 maybe not 22:03:35 ais523_: another similarly horrible thing: 22:03:38 -!- elliott has changed nick to Eliezer_Yudkowsk. 22:03:39 cheater99: you know I block links, right? even though I'm not on my usual computer or my usual client, so I can see the link perfectly well 22:03:43 cpressey: Why? 22:03:44 * Eliezer_Yudkowsk says, "This is how he talked in all the AI Box emails." 22:03:45 I'm still not following it out of principle 22:03:50 * Eliezer_Yudkowsk says, "Seriously." 22:03:54 what, really? 22:03:55 -!- Eliezer_Yudkowsk has changed nick to elliott. 22:03:57 ais523_: yep 22:03:58 that's ridiculous 22:04:03 ais523_: clearly an ex-MUDder or soemthing 22:04:06 ais523_: no 22:04:10 ais523_: why do you? 22:04:16 I've invented a language called rainduck. 22:04:17 not just that, it's an ISIDTID violation 22:04:22 cheater99: because they're annoying, and mostly not useful 22:04:22 * Gregor says, "This is how all the cool kids talk." 22:04:29 Velmont: is it a BF derivative, by any chance? 22:04:38 ais523_: here we go: http://www.sl4.org/archive/0207/4689.html 22:04:43 ais523_: this is something that does what i described 22:04:43 ais523_: ooh, he actually did 22:04:46 * elliott says to bar: "Blah." 22:04:50 ais523_: rather than "bar: blah" 22:04:52 ais523_: Yes, but very different. It's based on ducks instead of numbers. 22:05:11 It has duck typing. 22:05:20 hmm, sounds like a good start 22:05:34 also, sounds like it badly needs an FFI to HOMESPRING, although I don't know how ducks would interact with salmon 22:05:46 (or how you write a nontrivial HOMESPRING program anyway, I'm not even convinced it's TC) 22:05:55 ais523_: ISIDTID ? 22:06:06 cpressey: "I say I do, therefore I do" 22:06:08 I don't trust ducks. They always look like they're planning something. I'm not sure it's a good idea to give them language capabilities. 22:06:28 imagine going into a shop, and buying something, but instead of giving the shopkeeper money, you just say, out loud, "I give you money" 22:06:48 it's pretty ludicrous in RL, yet people manage the equivalent all the time in online games 22:06:49 fizzie: I have no idea how to put Daffy Duck's laugh into text, but imagine that text is here: _____ 22:07:19 `addquote I don't trust ducks. They always look like they're planning something. I'm not sure it's a good idea to give them language capabilities. 22:07:22 cheater99, what would the point be of that software? 22:07:22 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:07:31 250| I don't trust ducks. They always look like they're planning something. I'm not sure it's a good idea to give them language capabilities. 22:07:32 Gregor: lol 22:07:34 it slowly 22:07:38 Gregor: it very slowly. 22:07:42 well not that very 22:07:42 elliott: I didn't say it would be fast, just that it would work. 22:07:45 as slowly as David's ears, in fact! 22:07:45 Vorpal: gnome doesn't do the things it does, on its own 22:07:51 Vorpal: look at the screenshots section 22:07:53 umm, that's slightly, isn't it? 22:07:57 Gregor: but it's slowing down, maybe something's badness 22:07:57 cheater99, yes I looked. And? 22:08:02 ais523_: ooh, i forgot about them! 22:08:04 cheater99, I utterly fail to see the use of it 22:08:28 oh, both slowing and slighting were involved 22:08:36 cheater99, I have some quick launching icons in the top menu bar. To be specific: firefox, thunderbird, gnome-terminal, emacs, kate 22:08:42 Vorpal: that's your problem, then. 22:08:51 cheater99, there are loads of space left over 22:08:59 Vorpal: gnome-terminal, emacs, /and/ Kate? something seems a bit fishy about that 22:09:08 Vorpal likes kate because he has no taste 22:09:09 :p 22:09:12 even though it's a combination I use, it just feels wrong 22:09:16 (I haven't used Kate for a while, actually) 22:09:20 ais523_, depends on which language I'm coding in 22:09:27 ditto 22:09:36 since they are like 24x24 pixels 22:09:43 and this is a 24" widescreen monitor 22:09:50 although when you're up to the stage of lua in gedit, Perl in Kate, C in Emacs, it gets a little silly 22:09:51 I have absolutely no lack of space 22:10:05 ais523_, why gedit 22:10:06 I'm mostly a Perl in Emacs person, but Emacs' Perl support isn't great and sometime I have to use Kate instead 22:10:22 Vorpal: because it's low-tech, for that notepad feel 22:10:27 ais523_, C in kate for me, erlang, lisp and haskell in emacs 22:10:32 and sometimes I just like to edit by hand 22:10:38 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:10:46 ais523_: gedit has tons of plugins and crap it's far from low-tech 22:10:52 and sometimes I just like to edit by hand <-- ed? magnetic needle? 22:10:52 it's just bad when extended like that, though :P 22:10:55 elliott: I mean, the way I have it set up 22:10:58 ais523_: LEADEN is low-tech! 22:11:05 it doesn't even do autoindentation, just old Turbo Pascal-style 22:11:06 -!- lilja_ has joined. 22:11:22 ais523_, I fail to see why you would want to use that then 22:11:24 but meh 22:11:27 hmm 22:11:32 evidence that oklopol is there grows 22:11:37 Vorpal: are you not a Real Programmer (windows 3.1 version)? 22:11:44 elliott, hm? 22:11:52 ahh but you can do that with normal gnome too 22:11:52 amazing 22:11:57 Vorpal: lilja_ lends evidence to the proposition that oklopol is wherever Velmont is 22:11:59 ais523_, no. I grew up with classical mac OS 22:12:11 elliott, errr. how so? 22:12:23 * elliott lets Vorpal puzzle it out himself 22:12:30 how is young elliott? 22:12:39 only 74 years. 22:12:48 it's only young in my mind *sniff* 22:12:59 oh, /me misread that 22:13:09 note the .no 22:13:12 yes 22:13:21 Velmont: already noted :p 22:13:25 lots of .no indeed 22:13:33 Velmont: i take it oklopol doesn't think we're cool enough to talk to :'( 22:13:35 elliott, but what has that got to do with oklopol? 22:13:44 elliott, maybe you meant oerjan? 22:13:48 Vorpal: no. 22:13:56 okay 22:14:07 elliott, is oklopol in Norway now or something? 22:14:21 Velmont: please explain to Vorpal... 22:15:01 Vorpal: He's here with me. 22:15:09 ais523_: "It's raining but I don't think it is." 22:15:20 cpressey: ? 22:15:28 Velmont, oh 22:15:35 ais523_: cpressey is riffing on ISIDTID, I would presume 22:15:37 Velmont, why is he in Norway then? 22:15:38 that's as bad as me resolving a paradox by maintaining publically that my own position, while correct, was unreasonable 22:15:38 ais523_: an example of linguistics that your ISIDTID reminded me of 22:15:43 ah, yes 22:15:46 *from linguistics 22:15:56 elliott, ISIDTID? 22:16:08 Vorpal: read scrollback 22:16:16 Vorpal: Because lilja_ is doing work for her masters degree here. 22:16:21 There is actually a context where it makes sense -- when you are narrating past events that happened to you, but using present tense 22:16:34 "It's 4AM, Thursday. I wake up. It's raining, but..." 22:16:48 cpressey: "I say I do, therefore I do" <-- hm okay 22:27:46 -!- elliott has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:46 -!- storkbot has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:46 -!- HackEgo has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:46 -!- catseye has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:47 -!- wareya has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:47 -!- myndzi\ has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:47 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:47 -!- Velmont has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:48 -!- tombom has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:48 -!- fungot has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:48 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:48 -!- mycroftiv has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:48 -!- ais523_ has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:48 -!- EgoBot has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:48 -!- cal153 has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:48 -!- dbc has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:49 -!- Zuu has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:49 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:49 -!- Ilari has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:49 -!- Vorpal has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:49 -!- sshc_ has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:49 -!- FireFly has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:49 -!- p_q has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:49 -!- ineiros has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:49 -!- comex has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:49 -!- coppro has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:49 -!- yiyus_ has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:50 -!- Wamanuz4 has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:50 -!- fizzie has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:50 -!- pikhq has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:50 -!- cpressey has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:50 -!- olsner has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:50 -!- yiyus has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:50 -!- Slereah has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:50 -!- jix has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:50 -!- SimonRC has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:50 -!- cheater_ has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:50 -!- mtve has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:50 -!- lilja_ has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:50 -!- jcp has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:50 -!- Gregor has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:51 -!- Deewiant has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:51 -!- augur has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:51 -!- aloril has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:51 -!- Quadlex has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:51 -!- sftp has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:51 -!- sebbu has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:51 -!- Decarabia has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:52 -!- distant_figure has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:52 -!- Chachi has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:52 -!- Leonidas has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:52 -!- Sgeo has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:52 -!- cheater99 has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:52 -!- Quadrescence has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:52 -!- nooga has quit (*.net *.split). 22:27:52 -!- rodgort has quit (*.net *.split). 22:28:06 -!- lilja_ has joined. 22:28:06 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:28:06 -!- wareya has joined. 22:28:06 -!- augur has joined. 22:28:06 -!- Velmont has joined. 22:28:06 -!- cheater99 has joined. 22:28:06 -!- elliott has joined. 22:28:06 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 22:28:06 -!- Slereah has joined. 22:28:06 -!- Wamanuz4 has joined. 22:28:06 -!- tombom has joined. 22:28:06 -!- fungot has joined. 22:28:06 -!- fizzie has joined. 22:28:06 -!- sftp has joined. 22:28:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:28:06 -!- sshc_ has joined. 22:28:06 -!- ais523_ has joined. 22:28:06 -!- FireFly has joined. 22:28:06 -!- storkbot has joined. 22:28:06 -!- HackEgo has joined. 22:28:06 -!- EgoBot has joined. 22:28:06 -!- p_q has joined. 22:28:06 -!- catseye has joined. 22:28:06 -!- myndzi\ has joined. 22:28:06 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:28:06 -!- distant_figure has joined. 22:28:06 -!- aloril has joined. 22:28:06 -!- nooga has joined. 22:28:06 -!- Chachi has joined. 22:28:06 -!- Zuu has joined. 22:28:06 -!- cpressey has joined. 22:28:06 -!- ineiros has joined. 22:28:06 -!- jcp has joined. 22:28:06 -!- comex has joined. 22:28:06 -!- cal153 has joined. 22:28:06 -!- Decarabia has joined. 22:28:06 -!- Gregor has joined. 22:28:06 -!- dbc has joined. 22:28:06 -!- olsner has joined. 22:28:06 -!- coppro has joined. 22:28:06 -!- sebbu has joined. 22:28:06 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined. 22:28:06 -!- Ilari has joined. 22:28:06 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 22:28:06 -!- jix has joined. 22:28:06 -!- SimonRC has joined. 22:28:06 -!- mycroftiv has joined. 22:28:06 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 22:28:06 -!- cheater_ has joined. 22:28:06 -!- Vorpal has joined. 22:28:06 -!- yiyus_ has joined. 22:28:06 -!- yiyus has joined. 22:28:06 -!- Deewiant has joined. 22:28:06 -!- rodgort has joined. 22:28:06 -!- mtve has joined. 22:28:06 -!- Leonidas has joined. 22:28:06 -!- Quadlex has joined. 22:28:12 outside of illicit channels, I know of no way to get a copy of MS-DOS 22:28:12 wow, "(nef@" 22:28:12 wb clog 22:28:12 an actual ident server? 22:28:16 and why not? 22:28:24 ais523_: just, surprising 22:28:47 it's the INTERCAL way 22:28:52 follow standards everyone else has forgotten 22:28:58 make things work where others don't bother 22:29:06 then ruin it all by putting an inexplicable cap on the value of constantas 22:29:08 *constants 22:29:15 MS dos 4 01 uk 5,25\" 360Kb » applications other os 22:29:17 ais523_: wow ^ 22:29:22 so useful! :p 22:29:27 Someone tell me how much energy U-235 fission gives off. 22:29:34 Phantom_Hoover: 4, I'm not sure which units 22:30:06 4 neutrons, or what? 22:30:11 4 joules? 22:30:13 4 ergs? 22:30:15 Phantom_Hoover: 42, I'm not sure which units but you can convert from ais523's to mine like this: 42x/4 22:30:27 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 22:30:54 * elliott just downloads DOS 6.22 instead 22:31:02 hmm, MS-DOS might still be included in the MSDN cd set 22:31:30 at least it was 10 years ago, last time I saw one of those 22:31:32 -!- p_q has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:31:53 olsner: heh 22:31:59 olsner: iirc MSDNA or whatever it is has it 22:32:01 the academic thing 22:32:05 *MSDNAA? 22:32:05 Vorpal mentioned it 22:32:09 *MSDNAA 22:32:10 right 22:32:13 I could sign up to that in theory, I think 22:32:20 but I don't, because it'd be useless unless I ran Windows 22:32:34 ais523_, works in wine 22:32:43 and you get a windows license too, of course 22:32:46 ais523_: but you can get all sorts of ridiculous software for free! 22:32:57 also exact offering varies between universities 22:33:00 elliott: that's pointless unless I want to actually /use/ it 22:33:07 ais523_: no it isn't! FUN 22:33:12 also, it'd take ages reading the EULA, Microsoft's is really quite long 22:33:22 ais523_: you even *read actual EULAs*? 22:33:28 yes 22:33:30 like, the ones that are 10 pages printed in 12pt? 22:33:39 I'm not going to pretend that I'm surprised that other people don't, because I know they don't 22:33:43 but don't be surprised that I do 22:33:55 i guess it's for the best 22:33:57 (admittedly, if I recognise the EULA, I don't reread the duplicate copies) 22:34:10 if ais523_ was redesigned without the eccentricities, he would probably take over the world 22:34:11 there are some really weird sections in some of them 22:34:18 one of the section's in Microsoft's is in French 22:34:36 I think the situation would be better for everyone if there was actually *no-one* reading those things 22:35:02 ais523_, maybe it only applies to France then? 22:35:14 olsner: in the UK a while ago, EULAs were ruled unenforceable because nobody actually read them, thus a contract wasn't formed 22:35:23 (to be more precise, because they were designed to discourage being read) 22:35:24 ais523_, awesome 22:35:27 Vorpal: it only applies to Canada, I think 22:35:32 ais523_, ah 22:35:52 ais523_: so why do you read them? :p 22:36:06 elliott: so I know whether to accept them or not 22:36:13 * elliott sees MP3 being referred to as "Layer III", lols 22:36:16 ais523_: but they're not binding 22:36:25 I don't care, I respect Microsoft anyway! 22:36:36 elliott, the two lower layers being? 22:36:41 Vorpal: MP1 and MP2 22:36:47 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-1_Audio_Layer_I 22:36:48 and the one above is MP4 22:36:51 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-1_Audio_Layer_II 22:36:53 elliott, aren't they outdated formats 22:36:56 Vorpal: yes 22:37:03 elliott, as opposed to *layers* 22:37:07 Vorpal: no, they're layers. 22:37:10 that's the technical terminology 22:37:13 elliott: I suppose I just don't like lying, even to a computer 22:37:16 Vorpal: because they're all MPEG 22:37:18 elliott, yes but not on top of each other 22:37:22 they are different versions 22:37:24 Vorpal: i hate you 22:37:24 of the same layer 22:37:30 elliott, what? 22:37:32 were I wrong? 22:37:36 were I wrong? 22:37:38 yes 22:37:42 you was very wrongs. 22:37:45 *was 22:37:47 elliott, so they go on top of each other? 22:38:00 THEY'RE DIFFERENT VERSIONS OF THE *AUDIO LAYER* OF AN MPEG FILE 22:38:12 elliott, yes that is what I said 22:38:16 ais523_: what would you do if a dialogue box popped open saying: 22:38:18 elliott, yes but not on top of each other 22:38:18 they are different versions 22:38:23 "What did you not answer this question with? 22:38:29 [ This answer ] [ This other answer ]" 22:38:31 ais523_: and no close box? 22:38:32 elliott: depends on the context 22:38:47 Vorpal: the mpeg file has an audio layer 22:38:52 elliott, correct 22:38:52 I have less trouble lying in contexts where it's obvious that I'm potentially going to lie 22:38:55 Vorpal: it can be of the format audio layer 1, audio layer 2, etc. 22:38:59 elliott, but layer III is wrong 22:39:01 the audio layer 1 format, audio layer 2 format 22:39:02 NO IT'S NOT 22:39:04 playing certain games, for instance 22:39:08 ais523_: not a game 22:39:08 elliott, it is a version number 22:39:13 ais523_: it's just a program you decided to run 22:39:14 elliott, not like layer in the OSI model 22:39:16 (I am, incidentally, rather bad at lying, even when I try) 22:39:24 elliott, that is all I ever disputed 22:39:25 ais523_: (presumably intended to have another purpose of that; say the title is "To use this program, please answer the following") 22:39:30 Vorpal: X_X 22:39:48 elliott, MP3 doesn't go on top of MP2. That is all I said all along 22:39:56 nobody said it does 22:39:57 ever 22:39:57 elliott: I'd assume such a program was playing games with me; if it was allegedly serious, I'd assume it was some sort of practical joke) 22:40:03 elliott, correct! 22:40:03 ais523_: but what would you do? 22:40:05 umm, s/\)$// 22:40:21 elliott: depends on the context, but likely kill the process under the assumption that the program was malicious 22:40:40 wouldn't that be what you'd conclude if apparently serious software started doing that? 22:40:48 ais523_: you ran a reliable virus scanner/analyser on it and it reported that the program only used create_dialogue_box and duplicate_file 22:40:52 (say, it's a file duplication program) 22:41:04 you can make malicious dialog boxes! 22:41:11 (and duplicate files in malicious ways!) 22:41:11 ais523_: it also gives arguments 22:41:13 oh, it's malicious 22:41:15 pernicious 22:41:19 create_dialogue_box purely brings up that box, according to the arguments 22:41:21 also, why would I be using a file duplication program other than a cp variant? 22:41:25 all around delicious. 22:41:29 ais523_: and duplicate_file's first argument is always user input 22:41:33 ais523_: also, because you decided to. 22:41:38 ais523_: are you sure you kill it? 22:41:51 elliott, if that happened to me I would react pretty much as ais523_ and then file a bug :P 22:41:52 elliott: at this stage, I need so many nested hypotheticals that it's hard to envisage what I'd do 22:42:15 ais523_: also, in this world, the sky is pink 22:42:23 cpressey++ 22:42:24 and paper is made from frogs 22:42:31 (I think the sort of questioning you were trying there was a TDWTF meme for a while, after someone tried it in an interview) 22:42:32 ais523_: and frogs are actually illegal 22:42:35 cpressey, AWESOME! 22:42:45 frogpaper would be sweet, gotta admit 22:42:51 hmm, name a common hard drive size > 100 megs but < 1 gig 22:42:56 elliott: dangling SHALL, there 22:43:02 do you mean that people SHALL NOT own frogs? 22:43:04 a > 100 meg HD size you might see used with MS-DOS 22:43:07 elliott, you mean frogper 22:43:09 ais523_: no, frogs are just illegal 22:43:12 that's what the law says 22:43:14 "Frogs are illegal." 22:43:22 I'm not sure what it means for a noun to be illegal, as opposed to a verb 22:43:30 ais523_: and nobody has dared test it in court yet 22:44:02 my guess would be that it would be a method for the government to arbitrarily declare activities to potentially involve frogs 22:44:10 in order to create an excuse to arrest people they didn't like 22:44:14 heh 22:44:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:45:00 a > 100 meg HD size you might see used with MS-DOS 22:45:04 nobody wanna take the bait? :( 22:45:21 200 metric MB would seem plausible, or maybe 240 22:45:27 but that's just a guess 22:45:38 ais523_: anything bigger? 22:45:52 400 metric MB, perhaps? 22:45:53 I'm still guessing 22:45:54 "240 meg hard drive" "Did you mean: 240 gig hard drive" 22:45:56 no google, i didn't 22:45:59 do you want me to guess some larger numbers? 22:46:04 also, I love that correction 22:46:05 ais523_: not really 22:46:09 Quantum 240MB 3.5 inch IDE Hard Drive ProDrive LPS GM24A013 22:46:09 $331 - 4 stores 22:46:12 elliott, well you could go bigger but what would be the point 22:46:14 heh 22:46:18 wow that's expensive 22:46:21 Vorpal: so 240 do you think? 22:46:31 elliott, well, hard to say 22:46:33 ais523_: well, it's old and no longer produced 22:46:35 hmm, I'm having issues visualising that 22:46:41 expensive because it's hard to obtain, presumably? 22:46:41 ais523_: ? 22:46:44 ais523_: yes 22:46:47 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:46:50 ais523_: they were popular when they existed 22:46:52 then Quantum disappeared 22:46:54 etc. 22:47:08 that's probably selling them at their retail price at the time or something 22:47:09 who knows? 22:47:14 elliott, why did they disappear? 22:47:23 didn't they merge with/get bought by seagate? 22:47:23 Vorpal: someone observed them 22:47:30 ais523_, observed? 22:47:33 as in, watching? 22:47:33 Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_Corporation 22:47:41 Vorpal: yes, Heisenberg Corporation 22:47:48 elliott, XD 22:47:59 why are you XDing me, i was trying to see how stupidly unaware of ais523_'s joke you could get 22:48:00 XD ais523_ 22:48:09 elliott: you gave it away too quickly 22:48:18 ais523_: he'd just give up, though 22:48:25 'twould have worked better if I'd got in before olsner's sensible answer, though 22:48:36 it rather gave away the existence of a joke 22:49:07 (incidentally, this channel seems to use jokes as weapons to prove other people's stupidity/denseness, rather than for actual humour, which is possibly missing the point somewhat) 22:49:33 'twould have worked better if I'd got in before olsner's sensible answer, though <-- yes it would have worked then 22:49:37 as it was now, it didn't 22:50:18 bbl 22:50:19 woo, MS-DOS 6.22 install! 22:50:35 are you going to run printable hello world programs on it? 22:50:47 ais523_: yes, and also write my own, far superior DEBUG.COM-based batch file assembler 22:50:55 ais523_: and hopefully assemble my DOS 1 on it 22:51:09 yay, it supports UK keyboards! 22:51:13 `quote 247 22:51:14 247|* Gregor bashes his head into the wall that is Sgeo. 22:51:18 wait /what/? 22:51:23 `quote 248 22:51:24 248|[spam] Any flavored hell can pee on the pig pen, but it takes a real football team to throw a slyly optimal formless void at a hole puncher. 22:51:30 `quote 247 22:51:31 247|* Gregor bashes his head into the wall that is Sgeo. 22:51:38 what happened to the zzo quote? 22:51:39 `quote 246 22:51:40 246| syntax is the least important part of a programming language other than Python 22:51:45 ais523_: tl;dr hackego sucks at reverting 22:51:51 and apparently gregor didn't bother to do anything about it 22:51:53 when i pinged him about it 22:51:57 http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/10/28/carl-paladino-brushes-off-poll-numbers-on-long-island/ 22:51:57 ais523_: hmm, is DOS Y2K compatible? 22:52:01 [16:46] 22:00:09 247| elliott: Do not trust a computer you cannot throw out of a window. Including the window too far from the rope. 22:52:02 I hate humanity 22:52:04 ais523_: yes 22:52:06 ais523_: i reverted it and shit 22:52:09 ais523_: not everything worked 22:52:10 ah 22:52:14 ais523_: and shit, uh, basically, it got messed and still is 22:52:15 I wonder if FreeDOS can do UTF8. 22:52:16 I'm trying to figure out what that quote means 22:52:35 elliott: I was using win3.1 past 2000 22:52:37 DOS worked fine 22:52:42 ais523_: but did it think it was 1910? 22:52:45 pikhq: probably 22:52:48 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 22:52:49 but File Manager printed years as 19:0 for 2000 22:52:53 woo, C:\DOS! 22:52:54 ais523_: ha 22:52:57 Clearly, he doesn't really want to let his computer be destroyed 22:53:02 ais523_: I mean, DOS has recognised it's /10 22:53:08 ais523_: I'm just not sure *which* /10 it thinks it is 22:53:08 22:53:10 * elliott inserts disk 2 22:53:26 Sgeo: even with that explanation, I don't understand 22:54:03 "a window", taken literally? /em isn't ssure 22:54:03 ais523_: tie computer to short rope, throw out window, retrieve computer with impossible strength 22:54:18 "including"? 22:54:19 * Sgeo triplefails 22:54:22 ais523_: interestingly, i never noticed that quote doesn't make sense until you pointed it out 22:54:30 ais523_: "Never use a computer if not X or not Y". 22:54:42 ais523_: "Including" meaning "the previous condition is violated in this additional case:" in zzo38 22:54:48 elliott: I'd expect zzo38 grammar to generally be insanely pedantically correct 22:54:59 ais523_: it isn't, if you look closely 22:55:04 and aren't windows windows even if they're too far from the rope? 22:55:27 They could be only marginally connected thoughts 22:55:50 I've done that before 22:56:31 I makes total sense when you decode into it 22:57:16 It's infecting cpressey! 22:57:57 and aren't windows windows even if they're too far from the rope? 22:58:20 ais523_: yes, but you should never use a computer that you can't throw out of a window, or even if you can throw it out of the computer, you shouldn't unless the rope is close enough to the window 22:58:25 ais523_: perhaps rope = power cord 22:59:23 They used power coords in the old days to hang people 22:59:31 Some coords came through a time vorte 22:59:32 t 22:59:38 Best use of them was hanging 22:59:54 * Sgeo is in a giggly mood 23:00:01 YOU ARE ALWAYS IN A GIGGLY MOOD 23:00:03 so am I, and have been for the last several hours 23:00:12 this channel's been so amazing, if not exactly ontopic 23:00:19 really? 23:00:25 I didn't notice any additional amazingness 23:00:27 I need to relax somehow 23:00:32 ais523_: what's SMARTDRV and why is MS-DOS running it? 23:00:39 and why isn't it booting up further X_X 23:01:10 elliott: SMARTDRV is disk caching 23:01:15 DOS doesn't cache at all 23:01:17 is it useful at all? :p 23:01:19 SMARTDRV.SYS does 23:01:25 but yeah it has frozen my flrtirt 23:01:26 dfksdfj 23:01:28 stupid dos 23:01:30 stupid stupiding 23:01:31 and yes if your memory is faster than your disk, so no because you're on a virtualised system 23:01:37 http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/cgi-bin/pdilemma.perl 23:01:38 .perl 23:01:40 perl 23:01:41 ais523_: err, the HD is still a file 23:01:45 Sgeo: quite common 23:01:50 bleh 23:01:58 well, you have caching on your own disk, don't you? 23:02:10 if the outside OS is caching, pointless for the inside OS to be caching too 23:02:18 or you'd be caching caches 23:02:18 ais523_: indeed 23:02:28 ais523_: more to the point, DOS doesn't work! sad 23:02:44 both DOSBox and JPC-RR work fine for me 23:02:54 ais523_: *MS-DOS 23:02:56 (although both are rather slow; JPC-RR is /incredibly/ slow) 23:03:04 ais523_: i want original authentic DEBUG.COM! 23:03:12 is that in the same zipfile as QBasic? 23:03:18 ais523_: i very much doubt it 23:03:22 anyway, i want real dos, so nyah 23:03:55 blink tags 23:04:06 Why did it have to be blink tags? 23:04:23 ais523_: to be honest, i'd rather use ms-dos 5, before stinky CD distribution 23:04:25 but there you go 23:04:58 apparently, was originally added as a joke 23:05:05 and people liked the feature and wanted it to be kept in 23:05:16 really? 23:05:17 heh 23:05:20 ("apparently" meaning "on some webpage I can't remember, and I'm not sure how reliable it was") 23:05:29 i thought that was javascript! 23:05:32 * Sgeo remembers reddit linking to it 23:05:36 "Current date is Thu 10-28-2010 23:05:40 Enter new date (mm-dd-yy):" 23:05:44 err, no DOS, you got it right 23:06:00 apparently 10-28-10 is an invalid date :) 23:06:05 oh, -2010 works 23:06:08 despite it being -yy 23:06:10 maybe it wanted -110 23:06:24 so how to I tell Ubuntu that my FAT32 filesystems should behave as +x on all files be default, like it used to 23:06:30 ais523_: wow, DOS 3.3 (1987) didn't show :\ in the prompt 23:06:31 A> 23:06:36 *grambar 23:06:39 http://www.montulli.org/theoriginofthe%3Cblink%3Etag 23:06:43 cpressey: it's probably an option in /etc/mtab, if I've remembered the name correctly 23:06:46 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/cmaam/i_would_like_to_publicly_state_that_at_no_time/ 23:06:49 ais523_: fstab 23:06:51 elliott: it didn't show the directory at all 23:06:52 Sgeo: what a terrible url 23:06:57 ais523_: yup 23:06:58 in DOS, you use cd to print the current directory 23:07:00 ais523_: 3.3 sux P:P 23:07:01 *:P 23:07:12 which is confusing if you're used to the pwd-prints-cd-homes behaviour of UNIX 23:07:22 elliott: no, it's mtab. 23:07:28 thx ais523_ 23:07:34 cpressey: ? 23:07:39 it's really not 23:07:42 cpressey: mtab is the current state 23:07:44 modifying it won't work 23:07:55 no? 23:08:03 well fstab only lists permanent fs's 23:08:06 this is a flash drive 23:08:19 how to say "when you mount this", etc 23:08:22 >? 23:08:27 "In the end, the thing that I am truly sad about, is that Lynx never did get to blink." 23:08:29 THAT CAN BE FIXED 23:08:33 ouch, that's pretty complex 23:08:36 cpressey: fstab 23:08:38 also, is Lynx still developed? 23:08:41 cpressey: i think you can tell it not to automount 23:08:47 ais523_: what's pretty complex? 23:08:54 ais523_: also, yes; last stable release was in June 23:08:57 last development release too 23:09:02 changing default settings for USB stick mounting 23:09:16 ais523_: windows drive, not usb stick 23:09:18 ais523_: that's... great 23:09:28 as in, I don't know a simple way to do it 23:09:36 elliott: *mine* is a usb stick 23:09:45 you could remount it with different settings, once it's mounted 23:09:53 oh, okay 23:09:55 FAT, I guess 23:09:56 -!- lilja_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:10:01 I can't remember how to do that either, but it's relatively easy IIRC 23:10:02 cpressey: why not just format it as ext3 >:) 23:10:14 ais523_: ok, 4.01 is also evilly old 23:10:17 1988 too 23:10:18 elliott: user numbers are different on different systems you take it to 23:10:26 ais523_: clearly we need asciifs 23:10:28 which uses usernames 23:10:29 elliott: not as old as NetHack, then 23:10:32 and, also, no non-printable chars 23:10:35 it's like shar but for filesystems 23:10:38 elliott: no, because usernames can differ too 23:10:44 ais523_: ah, shaddap 23:10:45 it's like shar but for filesystems! 23:10:45 it should just magically know 23:10:50 even better: it's actually a shell script 23:10:56 that said, sharfs is a great concept 23:10:57 preferably one that recreates the directory tree, permissions and all 23:11:04 of course, in a fixed format 23:11:07 (not running sh in the kernel! :P) 23:11:18 having sh in the kernel would be nice for crash recovery 23:11:30 ais523_: yes, but, don't mount the filesystem that way 23:11:34 just parse the shell script according to a fixed format 23:11:41 ais523_: this would actually be nice for loopback 23:11:46 ais523_: you can either 'sh foo.sh' and get a foo/ directory 23:11:48 or mount it loopback 23:11:50 hmm, it would actually be a quine, wouldn't it? 23:11:54 ais523_: how? 23:11:58 running foo.sh on a sharfs system 23:12:03 would create a copy of its source 23:12:10 ais523_: well, it'd... eh? 23:12:19 ais523_: foo.sh, when *run*, would create the filesystem on any filesystem 23:12:22 with cat, chmod, etc. 23:12:23 exactly 23:12:26 http://cheese.blartwendo.com/web21-demo.html 23:12:26 ais523_: right 23:12:28 if that filesystem is sharfs itself 23:12:29 ais523_: if you did 23:12:31 it's making a copy of itself 23:12:35 # mount /dev/foo foo 23:12:38 so the new sharfs filesystem is the same as the old one 23:12:38 # cd foo 23:12:41 # sh /dev/foo 23:12:47 then you'd get 23:12:55 foo/(files) 23:12:57 and foo/foo/(files) 23:13:15 ais523_: how to back up your drive: 23:13:27 # sh /dev/foo && tar-and-compress-etc . 23:13:37 WARNING: peak scalar flow in deep node 23:13:58 elliott: I'm suggesting # mount /dev/foo2 /mnt # cd /mnt # sh /dev/foo 23:14:02 WARNING: also, bad magic. check log for warnings 23:14:09 now, /dev/foo2 is a copy of /dev/foo, assuming it's sharfs 23:14:19 ais523_: oh, right, it writes changes back 23:14:19 so /dev/foo is a quine 23:14:20 ais523_: yes, yes 23:14:22 ais523_: glorious 23:14:26 also, I should go home 23:14:28 bye everyonr 23:14:33 ais523_: aww 23:14:34 ais523_: bye 23:14:34 -!- ais523_ has quit (Quit: Page closed). 23:14:36 :) 23:14:39 cpressey: wat 23:16:40 elliott: WARNING: logic not configured 23:16:47 WARNING: also, too many statements in exp 23:16:52 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 23:17:45 debugging this thing is making me a bit mashuga 23:18:21 cpressey: rewrite storkbot in |-lang 23:18:25 |with nc -e! 23:18:25 elliott: omg u errored teh syntax!!1! 23:19:02 Pipe-lang? 23:19:09 I haven't invented that yet 23:19:12 cpressey: well 23:19:12 |this 23:19:12 elliott: ?SYNTAX ERROR 23:19:29 cpressey: use @ and ~/ for all the variables and stuff and add conditionals and whatnot 23:19:44 I'm planning to make that "Unknown command (for a more interesting response, set ~/snark=1.) 23:20:05 oh rewrite storkbot in the language storkbot implements? 23:20:14 cpressey: yes 23:20:24 cpressey: write a storklang implementation then write storkbot in storklang 23:20:25 that'll... not anytime soon 23:20:30 and the original dream you had will be COMPLETE 23:20:57 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi. 23:21:48 http://nastynets.com/secretstash/blogstuff/2010/10/fingeruser.png 23:22:28 |~/b=[~storkbot/BRA] 23:22:28 cpressey: [ 23:22:34 |~/b 23:22:34 cpressey: [ 23:22:35 -!- Ilari has quit (Quit: Reconnecting). 23:23:06 |~/k=[~/storkbot/KET] 23:23:06 cpressey: omg u errored teh syntax!!1! 23:23:06 cpressey: 23:23:15 |~/k=[~storkbot/KET] 23:23:15 cpressey: ] 23:23:17 cpressey: oh is that why those exist? heh 23:23:19 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has changed nick to Ilari. 23:23:20 cpressey: shouldn't they be global 23:23:21 ? 23:23:23 @BRA and @KET 23:23:31 elliott: if they were global you could HACK them! 23:23:45 cpressey: oh 23:23:49 cpressey: make a sys account 23:23:56 cpressey: wait. 23:24:01 -!- Ilari_ has joined. 23:24:01 cpressey: what variables do you have again? 23:24:17 -!- Ilari has changed nick to Ilari_antrcomp. 23:24:19 |~/foo=goto [~/b]~/foo[~/k] 23:24:19 cpressey: goto [~/foo] 23:24:21 -!- Ilari_ has changed nick to Ilari. 23:24:28 |goto [~/foo] 23:24:29 cpressey: Out of stack space! Well no, but I stopped it anyway. 23:24:33 :D 23:24:44 |help var 23:24:45 cpressey: Help is available for: assignment expressions print goto 23:24:51 |help ass 23:24:51 cpressey: Assign a user-scope variable with ~/foo=1. Assign a server-scope variable with @bar=1. 23:24:54 |[=[ 23:24:54 elliott: ?SYNTAX ERROR 23:24:57 |(=[ 23:24:57 elliott: ?SYNTAX ERROR 23:25:00 {=[ 23:25:02 |{=[ 23:25:02 elliott: omg u errored teh syntax!!1! 23:25:03 http://nastynets.com/secretstash/blogstuff/2010/10/fingeruser.png <-- uh yes? I mean the sexual jokes about that are *old*... 23:25:07 cpressey: your language sucks ass 23:25:12 Vorpal: Yes, but the specific wording is just too much. 23:25:22 elliott, true it is a bit over the top 23:25:32 Vorpal: Considering it's real. 23:25:38 elliott, yes I know 23:25:45 elliott: if by "sucks ass" you mean "rules the ircwaves, too bad it's not documented", I agree 23:25:49 |~/{=[ 23:25:49 elliott: ?SYNTAX ERROR 23:25:50 elliott, the Swedish translation of OS X is quite harmless 23:25:55 |~/B=[ 23:25:55 elliott: [ 23:25:59 |~/K=] 23:25:59 elliott: ] 23:26:09 huh 23:26:15 cpressey: make ~/ implicit :P 23:26:15 i didn't yhink that would work 23:26:21 elliott: i mgiht 23:26:27 might* 23:26:27 it is a mouthful 23:26:29 |~/loop=goto [~/B]~/loop[~/K] 23:26:29 elliott: goto [~/loop] 23:26:31 |~/loop 23:26:31 elliott: goto [~/loop] 23:26:31 fingerful 23:26:35 |[~/loop] 23:26:35 elliott: Out of stack space! Well no, but I stopped it anyway. 23:26:44 needs more cowbell 23:26:45 cpressey: goto is basically a retarded [] 23:26:46 and 'if' 23:27:00 |~/loop=[~/B][~/B]~/loop[~/K][~/K] 23:27:01 elliott: [[~/loop]] 23:27:03 |goto help 23:27:03 cpressey: Help is available for: assignment expressions print goto 23:27:05 |[~/loop] 23:27:05 elliott: ?SYNTAX ERROR 23:27:08 elliott, why was it called finger in the first place? 23:27:12 |goto ~/loop 23:27:12 elliott: [[~/loop]] 23:27:14 Vorpal: who knows? 23:27:23 |~/loop=[~/B]~/loop[~/K] 23:27:23 elliott: [~/loop] 23:27:25 |[~/loop] 23:27:25 elliott: ?SYNTAX ERROR 23:27:28 cpressey: ??? 23:27:30 |~/loop 23:27:30 elliott: [~/loop] 23:27:33 |goto [~/loop] 23:27:33 elliott: omg u errored teh syntax!!1! 23:27:37 elliott, whoever called it that presumably knows, unless he/she was drunk at the time or similar 23:27:37 cpressey: why is that an error? 23:27:51 elliott: []-expansion is shallow, i think 23:28:01 cpressey: make it deep! 23:28:07 cpressey: then you can get rid of goto :p 23:28:12 |goto ~/loop 23:28:12 elliott: [~/loop] 23:28:19 cpressey: or get rid of [] 23:28:21 |goto foo 23:28:21 Vorpal: omg u errored teh syntax!!1! 23:28:23 doesn't goto do it all for you? 23:28:23 |~/m=help 23:28:23 cpressey: help 23:28:26 |goto ~/foo 23:28:26 Vorpal: 23:28:29 uh 23:28:29 |~/loop=goto ~/loop 23:28:29 elliott: goto ~/loop 23:28:30 |goto [~/m] 23:28:30 cpressey: Help is available for: assignment expressions print goto 23:28:33 |goto ~/loop 23:28:33 elliott: goto ~/loop 23:28:34 so what does it do? 23:28:35 |[~/m] 23:28:35 cpressey: Help is available for: assignment expressions print goto 23:28:36 |goto [~/loop] 23:28:36 elliott: goto ~/loop 23:28:52 |@x=3 23:28:52 elliott: 3 23:28:54 |@X 23:28:54 elliott: 23:28:55 |@x 23:28:55 elliott: 3 23:29:01 |@x 23:29:01 Vorpal: 3 23:29:04 |help assignment 23:29:04 elliott: Assign a user-scope variable with ~/foo=1. Assign a server-scope variable with @bar=1. 23:29:06 |help expressions 23:29:06 elliott: All items in [brackets] are replaced by their value, in a recursive, depth-first manner. 23:29:07 |help print 23:29:07 elliott: To print a string, issue the command 'print string'. 23:29:08 |help goto 23:29:08 elliott: To evaluate a string as a command, issue 'goto command'. This discards control context. 23:29:19 |goto ~elliott/loop 23:29:19 cpressey: goto ~/loop 23:29:33 your loop would go to mine if... ach 23:29:33 cpressey: ooh, it doesn't rename variables? naughty naughty! 23:29:46 "rename"? "variables"? these are all just strings 23:30:07 the contents of ~elliott/loop is "goto ~/loop" 23:30:45 cpressey: yeah yeah :P 23:30:49 cpressey: it should auto-replace :D 23:31:25 Is this some sort of ZipperFS bot? 23:32:02 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:33:28 Sgeo: ?? 23:33:33 hmmm, i'm not sure how the "task grouping" in gnome panel's app switcher works together with scroll-wheel browsing of open apps 23:33:38 this sort of sucks 23:33:49 i would expect the separate groups to expand dynamically when i'm doing that 23:33:52 "one can cd into a lambda-term in bash" this is why oleg is hot 23:33:58 Sgeo: ......................... NO 23:34:22 Sgeo probably doesn't mean the oleg thing. 23:34:30 "… the zipper-based file system looks almost the same as the Unix file system. Unlike the latter, however, we offer: transactional semantics; undo of any file and directory operation; snapshots; statically guaranteed the strongest, repeatable read, isolation mode for clients; built-in traversal facility; and just the right behavior for cyclic directory references. 23:34:30 We can easily change our file server to support NFS or 9P or other distributed file system protocol. We can traverse richer terms than mere finite maps with string keys. In particular, we can use lambda-terms as our file system: one can cd into a lambda-term in bash." 23:34:31 Sgeo: Just because you read about ZipperFS and just because my bot uses a vaguely unix-homedir-like syntax does NOT mean... 23:35:01 "one can cd into a lambda-term in bash" this is why oleg is hot 23:35:05 That's what I meant 23:35:08 elliott: Sgeo was reading about it last night, so... 23:35:15 natural assumption 23:35:27 oh, okay. 23:37:11 cpressey, natural assumption for Sgeo you mean? 23:37:25 ... 23:37:34 no, natural assumption that the ZipperFS he was referring to was the one he was reading about 23:37:43 cpressey, ah 23:37:50 the other assumption here is highly unnatural imo 23:37:58 cpressey, yes that is what I meant too 23:38:01 perhaps it was more wishful thinking 23:38:07 cpressey, indeed 23:38:09 *more of a case of 23:38:10 Well, I saw goto somecommand 23:38:27 |goto goto 23:38:27 Vorpal: omg u errored teh syntax!!1! 23:38:34 aww 23:38:52 |goto goto print x 23:38:52 Vorpal: x 23:38:54 ah 23:39:01 |~/foo=goto [~/b]~/foo[~/k] 23:39:01 cpressey: goto [~/foo] 23:39:07 |alias goto ls 23:39:08 Sgeo: ?SYNTAX ERROR 23:39:09 |goto [~/foo] 23:39:09 cpressey: Out of stack space! Well no, but I stopped it anyway. 23:39:36 cpressey, you spent a lot of time on the error messages eh? 23:39:50 And by ls I obviosly meant cd 23:39:52 Vorpal: I plan to spend more 23:40:02 cpressey, link to source? 23:40:04 and by obviosly I obviosly meant obviously 23:40:17 I... this isn't a filesystem, they're just variable scopes that have syntax inspired by a filesystem 23:40:21 |help ass 23:40:21 cpressey: Assign a user-scope variable with ~/foo=1. Assign a server-scope variable with @bar=1. 23:40:31 |source 23:40:31 cpressey: http://pastie.org/1254707 23:40:33 cpressey: shouldn't it be /bar 23:40:43 elliott: for global: yes, it probably should 23:40:57 product. of. evolution. 23:41:10 if it do that, i might as well simulate a filesystem, with ls and cd and all 23:41:22 cpressey: i approve 23:41:27 cpressey: have /source be one of the files there 23:41:29 :P 23:41:43 there was also supposed to be message-level scope, but nothing is complex enough to use that yet 23:41:44 cpressey: make changing it -- which root (you) can do -- reload the code in the Storklang implementation 23:41:49 and channel-level scope 23:42:11 elliott: that will be... not so straightforward yet 23:42:30 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 23:42:36 i have totally changed the way i work with linux. now the launchers are not at the top bar, they're at the bottom left in a grid. i feel like i'm upside down and a little weird. 23:42:44 http://www.smbc-comics.com/?db=comics&id=1994#comic this is amazing 23:43:09 (protip for those who haven't read SMBC before: hover over red button) 23:44:21 cpressey: dude have you got MS DOS 5 give it to me or die 23:44:31 or i could just convert the IMAs 23:46:40 WOO I GOT MS DOS 5 23:47:06 "An .IMA file contains a raw dump of the content of a disk. This format is not compatible with the Disk Copy Fast format but is supported by multiple software vendors, and is the same format as IMG." 23:47:07 that explains it 23:47:28 oh right it doesn't extract 23:47:47 oh i need the non-free version 23:48:32 * Sgeo remembers his mirror matter fantasies 23:49:31 Sgeo: you fantasise about way too much 23:49:56 It isn't sexual fantasies! 23:50:01 It's sci-fi fantasy! 23:51:05 and? 23:51:28 There's nothing wrong with having an active imagination. 23:51:56 and i never said that 23:52:21 elliott, this shows the difference to xkcd quite well: http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2006#comic 23:52:32 elliott, xkcd could have done it, but the punchline would have been missing 23:52:50 Vorpal: for once you said something amusing and intelligent! you are accepted into the club. but on a provisional basis only 23:53:47 elliott, I guess I went over your head most of the other times ;P 23:53:52 Vorpal: also, i reiterate, hover over the red button (you have no idea how many people don't notice this) 23:54:30 hah 23:55:17 Does UK English really spell it "fantasise"? That looks way odd 23:57:53 yes 23:57:57 -ize is always -ise 23:58:17 cpressey: also, it doesn't have ambiguity with sizing cans of Fanta 23:58:23 got a point you've gotta admit