00:01:08 <Vorpal> elliott, should be sise not size of course
00:01:29 <elliott> cool ms-dos installation crashed
00:01:35 <Vorpal> but of course, English is not logical
00:02:06 <cpressey> elliott: MS-DOS on bare metal?
00:02:12 * elliott is installing MS-DOS 5.0! The best MS-DOS!
00:02:22 <elliott> Instant startup, all the features, NO VERSION 6 BULLSHIT
00:03:15 <Quadlex> Is working in a role that's purely maintenance bad for your career?
00:03:31 <Quadlex> I think it might be, after all the best way to develop skills is to watch others and practice
00:03:50 <Quadlex> As a full time maintenance dev, I neither get to write new code OR get to read best practice code
00:03:54 <elliott> Quadlex: This is hardly the best place to find people who think the professional programming "career" is any fun or worthwhile at all.
00:04:09 <elliott> Quadlex: Because we're all cynical bastards?
00:04:13 <Quadlex> I would think that this channel is the best place to get considered opinions
00:04:15 <elliott> And also because it generally is awful.
00:04:17 <Quadlex> That's why I'm asking you.
00:04:21 <cpressey> Quadlex: I can tell you what I think "they" think
00:04:32 <elliott> I think cpressey is the only active one who has programming as a career.
00:04:38 <elliott> And I'm pretty sure he hates everyone. :P
00:04:42 <Quadlex> Optimistic people tend to think that "Every problem is an Opportunity in Disguise!"
00:04:44 <elliott> SimonRC too but he isn't active
00:04:49 <Quadlex> Those people are fuckwits in disguise
00:04:52 <cpressey> Quadlex: "they" think yes, it is bad for your career, so you should volunteer to help out on a project that is writing new code, or something.
00:05:11 <elliott> Quadlex: more importantly, code maintenance sounds like the soul-suckingest job *ever*
00:05:16 <elliott> and it would kill any human
00:05:21 <Quadlex> I don't mind it where I work ATM
00:05:31 <Quadlex> Because there's a LOT of different systems here
00:05:45 <Quadlex> So I've got lots of new stuff to satisfy my ADD
00:06:09 <elliott> that's your only criterion?
00:06:43 <cpressey> And since "they" think this is true, and "they" are probably a major factor in whether your career goes anywhere, in that sense, it's probably true.
00:07:00 <cpressey> However, it is of course completely fucked logic.
00:07:36 <Quadlex> But it's not because I'm doing maintenance
00:07:42 <Quadlex> IT's because the management treat us like children
00:07:49 <Quadlex> And laud the useless fuckwits on the team
00:08:37 * Sgeo is currently looking at a career in programming
00:08:46 <Sgeo> Unless I abruptly switch to med school
00:09:12 <elliott> Sgeo: CS curriculum, academia, some twisted definition of profit
00:11:03 <cpressey> Quadlex: then the way to succeed in your career is to act like a useless fuckwit :)
00:11:44 <Gregor> Truly, people are the worst kind of people.
00:12:09 * coppro doesn't know what he'll do as a career
00:12:21 * Sgeo wonders if a programming job could help pay his way through medschool
00:12:33 <Sgeo> So I wouldn't have to rely on my dad's money
00:12:46 <elliott> fizzie: MS-DOS Shell: my god what is this
00:13:06 <elliott> Sgeo: I, uh, please don't go into anything medical.
00:13:35 <elliott> Nothing personal, I just don't want you anywhere near my body in any kind of even semi-dangerous situation :P
00:14:36 <cpressey> Sgeo: You like C#; this is a substantial advantage in the job market. moreso if you've actually undertaken a sizeable project in it.
00:15:13 <Sgeo> A lot of people like the "industry" languages
00:16:41 <cpressey> Quadlex: what language are you maintaining stuff in?
00:17:42 <Sgeo> And my relationship with C# isn't quite "like" as it is "lack of disdain"
00:18:14 <cpressey> Sgeo: browse through dice.com sometime to get a feel for what's out there. it might help you decide.
00:18:32 <cpressey> tech job ads are written by the lowest rung of humanity, btw
00:18:51 <cpressey> Spelling? Grammar? Non-contradictory objectives? Who needs THOSE?
00:19:28 <Sgeo> "I have a client in San Jose who needs a strong C# developer, but not from a UI perspective, it is more on the back end. This is a 3-4 month project"
00:19:40 <Sgeo> (as a bullet point)
00:21:14 <cpressey> Yes. I should have added "Context? Relevancy?"
00:22:01 <Sgeo> Another ad has "Exception handling" (expert) as a required skill
00:22:10 <cpressey> Interview pattern for hiring developers: 1) "How deep is your experience?" 2) Random, vaguely technical trivia questions 3) Personality test
00:23:20 <cpressey> Sgeo: And they probably keyword-search for that to winnow down the 1000's of resumes they receive. Result: AWESOMENESS.
00:23:55 <cpressey> Because, you know, someone who lists "Exception handling" as one of their skills on their resume has got to be quite awesome.
00:24:33 <cpressey> Oh, you can't go wrong with tech job ads if you're looking for WTFs.
00:25:35 <Sgeo> Is this supposed to repulse me from a career programming?
00:25:39 <Quadlex> cpressey: The job would be java
00:25:43 <Quadlex> So, another kiss of death:P
00:26:27 <Sgeo> "Must come from a named school with a degree in a related field. "
00:26:30 <Quadlex> But frankly I don't care, I can learn other languages
00:26:37 <Quadlex> Unlike most career programmers
00:26:39 <Sgeo> Yeah, my school is the school that must not be named
00:27:04 -!- pikhq has joined.
00:27:14 <Sgeo> pikhq, do you come from a named school?
00:27:16 <cpressey> Quadlex: Java, yeah, is, like, special.
00:27:58 <Quadlex> I'm still amazed, daily, by how many career programmers can't solve problems or learn new things
00:28:34 <Sgeo> I prefer to find solutions online rather than attempt to reinvent the wheel, but I will if I have to
00:28:41 <cpressey> Even C# seems less... cloistered?... than Java. You can go to places that are flexible, look for smarts, reward creativity, etc, then look at their division that uses Java and it's just this -- flatline.
00:29:44 <Sgeo> I love learning new things, though
00:29:48 <Sgeo> I live and breath learning
00:30:16 <pikhq> Sgeo: Whaddya mean?
00:30:34 <cpressey> pikhq: from a job ad that Sgeo found: < Sgeo> "Must come from a named school with a degree in a related field. "
00:30:47 <Sgeo> http://seeker.dice.com/jobsearch/servlet/JobSearch?op=302&dockey=xml/1/8/1837ca6a9fa320660a3471828346955f@endecaindex&source=19&FREE_TEXT=C%23&rating=99
00:30:56 <pikhq> cpressey: The pfargtle?
00:31:02 <augur> πwe should play some games together some time
00:31:38 -!- cpressey has changed nick to cpressey|away.
00:32:36 <augur> that was addressed to you, πkhq.
00:33:18 <pikhq> augur: Why, pray tell, do you insist on calling me πkhq?
00:33:48 <augur> because i tried to tab complete your name before but i forgot that pi for me tab completes as the pi symbol
00:33:52 <Sgeo> I don't have my compose key any more!
00:34:07 <pikhq> hį'ke'tikiȳû, I could understand. But that?
00:34:20 <augur> what language is that
00:34:53 <Chachi> how do I rig a key on my keyboard to be a compose key?
00:34:59 <pikhq> Surely you could pattern match my completely bizarre diacritics by now. :P
00:35:12 <augur> thats not japanese.
00:36:41 <pikhq> ピッケッチキュー There, in a more normal orthography.
00:38:28 <Vorpal> Chachi, the normal way
00:38:44 <Chachi> Explain further, I am not so great with hardware/
00:38:58 <Vorpal> Chachi, I assume you use linux or *bsd
00:38:59 <pikhq> (¸ maps to the 半濁点, ` maps to the 濁点, ^ maps to 長音符, and ¯ indicates a 拗音)
00:39:13 <Vorpal> Chachi, so what window manager or desktop environment?
00:39:32 <Chachi> I am a user of Windows
00:39:40 <Vorpal> Chachi, don't think it is possible then
00:39:49 <pikhq> pikketchikyû, if you *must* use a more pedestrian romanisation scheme.
00:40:13 <Vorpal> Chachi, well that is what you get from using such a crappy OS :P
00:40:28 <augur> oh thats a handakuten not dakuten
00:40:58 <pikhq> What, you've not noticed me talking about or using my bizarro personal romanisation scheme for Japanese before?
00:41:00 <augur> now i vaguely understand your romanization schema
00:42:11 <Vorpal> pikhq, why do you use a non-standard one?
00:42:21 <pikhq> Vorpal: Because I dislike the standard ones.
00:42:31 <pikhq> Especially the primary standard, Hepburn.
00:42:38 <Vorpal> pikhq, on what grounds?
00:42:42 <pikhq> Which is actually *ambiguous*...
00:43:19 <augur> under hook on the vowel to indicate handakuten on the associated kana, apostrophes for small tsu, macron over y's to denote small versions of the associated kana
00:43:27 <augur> and a fairly standard carat for vowel length
00:43:43 <pikhq> augur: And grave on the vowel for dakuten.
00:44:46 <augur> aww not just, completely and utterly.
00:46:08 <pikhq> Vorpal: Hepburn and Kunrei-shiki (ISO 3602) make no distinction between づ and ず or between ぢ and じ. Nihon-shiki (ISO 3602 strict) is the only mainstream scheme that doesn't possess such an ambiguity for common Japanese text.
00:46:13 <Sgeo> elliott, I will, in fact, in some emergency situations, do CPR
00:46:48 <Sgeo> In dangerous situations, I may end up near your body. Hypothetically, I mean
00:46:50 <pikhq> Vorpal: They *all* suffer from inadequacies when attempting to encode somewhat less common uses of kana.
00:47:24 <pikhq> Vorpal: Especially noticable with transcriptions of non-Japanese words into Japanese.
00:50:32 <pikhq> Vorpal: Random, contrived example: the transcription of "fabric" into Japanese script could not then be re-transcribed into the Roman alphabet using any of those schemes.
00:50:51 <Gregor> "That's a rat hat?" "And poorly made one. Even by rat hat standards."
00:51:05 <pikhq> Vorpal: Whereas in mine, it's: huāhùri'ku.
00:51:26 * Sgeo breaks elliott's ribs
00:51:41 <elliott> Sgeo: Is that just so you could get close to me?
00:52:07 <pikhq> elliott: "Just a bit."
00:52:31 <elliott> <augur> aww not just, completely and utterly.
00:52:34 <elliott> that's what i didn't understand
00:52:54 <pikhq> I dunno what's so cute about it, myself.
00:53:30 <elliott> what's "kawaii ne" in it :P
00:53:54 * elliott notes that oerjan has been absent for quite a while
00:54:06 <pikhq> elliott: kawaî ne.
00:54:33 <elliott> pikhq: so hepburn:xx = pikhq:^x?
00:54:49 <pikhq> elliott: Only for the vowel i.
00:54:59 <pikhq> elliott: Hepburn uses ^ or ¯ for the other vowels.
00:55:05 <pikhq> (depending on revision)
00:55:31 <elliott> i like how zzo38 goes on about unicode romanisations being useless
00:55:41 <elliott> when all of them are non-latin :)
00:55:43 <pikhq> elliott: And common use of Japanese words in English omit the diacritics from Hepburn.
00:56:09 <pikhq> elliott: For instance, it's Tôkyô in Hepburn but Tokyo in English.
00:56:22 <elliott> pikhq: I think you'll find *Tōkyō.
00:56:59 <pikhq> elliott: There's three different forms of Hepburn. Traditional, revised, and modified.
00:57:14 <elliott> pikhq: is Kunrei-shiki better than Nihon-shiki, or?
00:57:27 <elliott> oh, apparently ISO 3602 = Kunrei-shiki
00:57:39 <elliott> pikhq: I want to learn Japanese. :p
00:58:02 <elliott> pikhq: oh, or are both ISO 3602?
00:58:02 <pikhq> Kunrei-shiki is Nihon-shiki except not making any distinctions between a few phonemes that are no longer distinguished in spoken Standard Japanese.
00:58:14 <pikhq> (they *are* distinguished in writing and in some accents of Japanese)
00:58:22 <pikhq> elliott: Nihon-shiki is ISO 3602 Strict.
00:58:46 <elliott> and kunrei-shiki is ISO 3602 Lax, so to speak :P
00:59:09 <pikhq> Aaargh. Wait, ^ has never been used for long vowels in Hepburn.
00:59:17 <pikhq> That's only ISO 3602.
00:59:26 <elliott> I have never seen Tokyo written that way before.
00:59:35 <elliott> Yay, I have DOS 5.0 in QEMU! ^_^
00:59:37 <pikhq> It's entirely valid Nihon-shiki.
00:59:54 <pikhq> And it's tôkiȳô in pikhq.
01:00:02 <Sgeo> elliott, what's so great about DOS 5.0 over DOS 6.whatever?
01:00:15 <elliott> Sgeo: DOS 6 seems to start up a bit slower for me
01:00:36 <elliott> Version 6.0 (Retail) - Online help through QBASIC. Disk compression and antivirus included.
01:00:36 <elliott> Version 6.2 (Retail) - Microsoft and IBM alternate versions, IBM has 6.1, 6.3
01:00:36 <elliott> Version 6.21 (Retail) - Stacker-infringing DBLSPACE removed.
01:00:36 <elliott> Version 6.22 (Retail) - New DRVSPACE compression.
01:00:56 <elliott> Sgeo: tl;dr "Stupid help system! Disk compression thing that broke Windows entirely. Probably-useless antivirus."
01:01:18 <elliott> Sgeo: Whereas 4 lacks the full-screen EDIT program.
01:01:51 <pikhq> Hepburn is a pretty strange Romanisation scheme.
01:02:06 <elliott> pikhq: designed by a christian missionary. figures
01:02:36 <pikhq> elliott: And it only makes sense at all for English speakers.
01:03:18 <elliott> pikhq: "Microsoft's licensing spokesperson "Rich H." told me, on 2-8-00, that anyone with a valid license to use any recent version of Microsoft's operating systems (Windows 95/98, NT) is also licensed to use any older version of Microsoft DOS products, and can obtain DOS 6.22 media for nominal cost from their supplemental materials unit. I haven't heard this before, so you should confirm this for your
01:03:20 * Sgeo should go to sleep soon
01:03:45 <elliott> pikhq: therefore downloading and not uploading an old DOS version is perfectly OK if you have Windows
01:04:15 <Gregor> elliott: Yes, because the license conditions in 2000 are clearly identical to the license conditions in 2010.
01:04:32 <elliott> Gregor: They can't exactly *revoke* licenses retroactively.
01:04:44 <elliott> Gregor: If you have Windows 95, 98 or NT, you have a license to use older DOS versions.
01:04:51 <Sgeo> I might have a 98 license lying around
01:05:06 <Gregor> elliott: Well, for one they can in fact revoke licenses retroactively, but for two Idonno if we've established what licenses pikhq has :P
01:05:10 <Sgeo> That's assuming that the rumor is true
01:05:22 <elliott> you mean quote from microsoft spokesman
01:05:24 <Sgeo> And I'm going to be learning CPR tomorrow
01:05:26 <Gregor> More to the point: Nobody effing cares 8-D
01:05:30 <pikhq> If you have Windows 95, 98, ME, NT, 2000, XP, you already *possess* DOS.
01:05:34 <elliott> Gregor: (1) well, yes, but (2) i never said pikhq had those licenses :P
01:05:34 <Gregor> Also, FreeDOS is better.
01:05:38 <elliott> pikhq: Old, shitty DOS that can't boot.
01:05:40 <Sgeo> elliott, quote from someone claiming to quote a Microsoft spokesman
01:05:52 <elliott> http://www.emsps.com/oldtools/msdosv.htm you can see how shady this website is
01:05:54 <elliott> it's probably a 9/11 jew conspiracy
01:06:03 <pikhq> elliott: Uh, no, it's actually entirely bootable.
01:06:19 <elliott> pikhq: You can't boot XP without any Windows components, can you?
01:06:23 <pikhq> elliott: It's the "create a boot disk" option in the GUI formatter. Honest-to-god.
01:06:34 <elliott> pikhq: But the boot disks lack most DOS tools.
01:06:43 <pikhq> elliott: It still installs DOS onto a disk.
01:06:57 <elliott> pikhq: DOS the kernel + COMMAND.COM
01:07:20 <Gregor> What is it you're trying to do that needs MS-DOS and not FreeDOS anyway? :P
01:07:37 <elliott> OH LOOK, MS-DOS 5 has no "move" command
01:07:46 <Sgeo> Gregor, what is it you're trying to accomplish by making a new programming language?
01:07:49 <elliott> Gregor: FreeDOS scares me! It is too bloated and too unfun.
01:07:59 <elliott> Gregor: Can't a man want simplicity in his life?
01:08:15 <elliott> ...seriously Sgeo that was a *terrible* analogy
01:08:32 <Sgeo> I refuse to think so
01:08:36 <Gregor> elliott: If you install a "full" version of FreeDOS, yes, it's bloated, but the subset of FreeDOS that is equivalent to MS-DOS isn't appreciably bigger ... perhaps even smaller.
01:08:36 <Sgeo> Both of them are just for fun
01:08:44 <elliott> Gregor: But also entirely less fun.
01:09:03 <elliott> Gregor: I mean, dude, you know why I'm doing this? So I can use DEBUG.COM to assemble my DOS (Dumbfounding Operating System) kernel.
01:09:07 <Sgeo> Unless Plof is meant to be srs bsns
01:09:18 <elliott> Gregor: You don't get that kind of authenticity with FreeDOS!
01:09:32 <Gregor> Except that there IS a compatible DEBUG.COM that comes with FreeDOS.
01:09:43 <Gregor> I ... have used it >_>
01:09:46 <elliott> Gregor: Compatible, yes. But not authentic.
01:09:57 <elliott> Gregor: Like watching Casablanca in colour.
01:11:14 <Sgeo> When will Microsoft name something .org ?
01:11:45 <elliott> Sgeo: Y would they do that?
01:12:19 * Sgeo doesn't get it :(
01:12:27 <elliott> Sgeo: What happens when you .org the Y?
01:12:42 <Sgeo> elliott, you're turning into me
01:12:45 <elliott> Sgeo: Another program that might be in org format is the ASM assembler.
01:13:05 <elliott> (In the grim future Windows, file extensions come before the filenames.)
01:13:06 <Sgeo> Except elliott's jokes are funnier
01:13:18 <elliott> Well, barely. Only compared to yours.
01:13:51 <elliott> Gregor: But dude, 6.22 is so much slower to start than 5 :(
01:13:59 <elliott> 5 is instant! 6.22 takes whole SECONDS!
01:14:12 <elliott> Gregor: Who needs extended memory?!
01:14:32 <Gregor> Extended memory? Who needs directories? *installs DOS 1*
01:14:52 <elliott> Gregor: I'd be fine with HIMEM if it didn't try and check all my memory at bootup :P
01:15:03 * elliott disables SMARTDRV; no need to cache when my OS does that for me
01:15:44 <Sgeo> Why anyone would use vi is beyond me
01:15:56 <Sgeo> I mean, besides to use a non-bloated editor
01:16:15 <Sgeo> Maybe on extremely low memory systems or something
01:17:04 <elliott> Sgeo: I hate you and think you should die.
01:17:07 <elliott> Gregor: Join the chant with me!
01:17:17 <elliott> Sgeo: also lol at the idea that vim isn't bloated
01:17:47 <Sgeo> So instead of little point to vim's existence, there's none! What about vi? Isn't there some sort of difference?
01:17:51 <elliott> "FILES=30" I really hope this is the maximum number of files on disk.
01:18:06 <elliott> Sgeo: You're retarded and have no idea what you're saying, how editors are designed, and how to use them.
01:18:32 <Sgeo> There's something wrong with being an emacs person?
01:18:41 <elliott> Sgeo: Do you actually use Emacs all the time?
01:18:54 <Sgeo> If I'm at a console, yes
01:18:55 <elliott> And no, but there's something very wrong with not *understanding* why vi is like it is, and why that's a good thing.
01:19:04 <elliott> lol @ the idea that emacs is a console editor
01:20:47 <catseye> unlimited virtual desktops + HUD of all desktops + a frame that stays on all desktops (never overlaps other windows) + hotkey brings you to most-used desktop
01:21:41 <elliott> catseye: not as good as my infinite virtual space
01:22:07 <catseye> elliott: well, obviously. nothing's as good as your tools
01:22:20 <elliott> http://www.xs4all.nl/~maribu/zeurkous/download/mirror/dosidle/DOSIDLE.ASM i cannot like any assembler with a struct syntax
01:22:29 <pikhq> I love how DOS is entirely capable of running 64-bit programs.
01:22:32 * elliott gets the feeling that catseye is starting to hate him :)
01:22:39 <elliott> almost tried to wget in dos, lol
01:22:53 <Sgeo> elliott, use a font you're not used to?
01:22:53 <elliott> pikhq: do you know how to expand a qcow2 to a raw image?
01:22:56 <Sgeo> Might that help?
01:23:01 <pikhq> elliott: What, you dislike masm and/or nasm?
01:23:22 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that the DOS font is likely not changable
01:23:28 <pikhq> elliott: qemu-img's man page should have something.
01:23:40 <elliott> pikhq: actually my real question is: how can i get a file from ~ to DOS oh i could make a floppy image
01:23:43 <elliott> thanks for reminding me pikhq!
01:23:46 <pikhq> Sgeo: That is, in fact, how locales work.
01:23:59 <elliott> pikhq: how do i make mkfs.vfat(1) use fat-16 :p
01:24:26 <pikhq> elliott: mkdosfs -F 16
01:24:37 <elliott> pikhq: were floppies 16 or 12? i forget
01:25:15 <pikhq> But DOS *should* handle a FAT-16 filesystem on a floppy disk just fine, so long as it's new enough to *have* FAT-16 support.
01:25:45 <Sgeo> When I was a little kid, I imagined "COS" -- Computer Operating System
01:25:53 <Sgeo> As a contrast to Disk Operating System
01:26:43 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:28:16 <catseye> Chachi: there is a way to set up entry of non-ascii characters in Windows -- i think they call them "input modes"? Youll have to research it with Google, though.
01:29:10 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/dos$ /sbin/mkfs.vfat -F 12 host.img
01:29:10 <elliott> mkfs.vfat 3.0.9 (31 Jan 2010)
01:29:38 <elliott> <Vorpal> Chachi, don't think it is possible then
01:29:41 <elliott> compose is possible on windows
01:29:49 <elliott> but his site is down so i can't link it :P
01:30:28 <elliott> Vorpal: it actually supported regular XCompose files
01:30:40 <elliott> Vorpal: it was a Lua script that translated XCompose to AutoHotKey_L (unicode fork of autohotkey)
01:30:47 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah, well, what else can capture keys like that :P
01:31:00 <Vorpal> elliott, well the windows API presumably allows it
01:31:13 <elliott> Vorpal: there's a reason AutoHotKey and the like exist: that's a bitch.
01:31:22 <Vorpal> (of course that is not *terribly* useful)
01:34:03 <Sgeo> I don't even want to think about the stupidity that allows this to exist http://www.sboobies.com/?cmd&file=./../../../../../../../../etc/shadow (NSFW)
01:34:08 <elliott> thanks for the ASCII penis.
01:34:30 <elliott> Sgeo was googling for boobies but he decided that /etc/shadow was hotter
01:34:41 <Sgeo> It was linked in a comment on Reddit
01:35:26 <Sgeo> Somehow I failed to notice that the link was real when I wrote a reply
01:35:40 <elliott> pikhq: "File allocation table bad, drive A"
01:35:57 <elliott> pikhq: the floppy disk is too big i think
01:36:14 <Gregor> (That's what she said)
01:36:51 <elliott> Gregor: worst floppy-related innuendo ever
01:37:21 <elliott> Gregor: (that's what she said)
01:37:46 <pikhq> Oh baby, /etc/shadow.
01:38:31 <elliott> "Oh baby, etc shadow." "But it's only three and a half inches floppy."
01:39:07 <pikhq> Twelve inches floppy baby.
01:39:10 <catseye> I am totally installing Falcon from source on this NetBSD box, BITCH.
01:39:27 <catseye> (directed, again, at no one here -- rather, the Fates.)
01:39:40 <Sgeo> RIP catseye's sanity
01:39:57 <elliott> pikhq: I would like to see that floppy .............. diskette, because it sure is big.
01:39:58 <catseye> They will punish me by making me be the pkgsrc maintainer for lang/falcon, when it comes to be
01:40:20 <pikhq> elliott: Yes. But when he was 1, his mom killed his dad in front of him, and he has been insane ever since.
01:40:24 <elliott> NOTE: WE HAVE ALL THE MATURITY OF A TWO-YEAR-OLD
01:40:52 <elliott> I wonder what WINA20.386 is.
01:40:55 <pikhq> elliott: Such a shame floppies only went up to 8 inches.
01:40:58 <elliott> It looks suspiciously Windows and floppy.
01:41:06 <elliott> pikhq: But with viagra [...]!
01:41:45 <pikhq> WINA20.386? That's what lets Windows go into protected mode and run the virtual Windows machine and several virtual DOS machines.
01:42:02 <catseye> < elliott> catseye: Confirm/deny?
01:42:22 <elliott> pikhq: Then I don't need it, yup?
01:42:36 <elliott> Also: Moving things to C:\DOS -- smart or stupid?
01:43:14 <catseye> elliott: Yes, you see, I was making fun of your simple question by play-implying that I am not very mature.
01:43:25 <elliott> catseye: MINE WAS META-HUMOUR
01:43:29 <pikhq> elliott: Solidly meh, actually.
01:43:35 <elliott> Because I never met one of the four or so humors I didn't like.
01:43:39 <elliott> Or was it humours even then?!
01:43:47 <elliott> pikhq: Why is it solidly meh? XD
01:44:00 <pikhq> elliott: Doesn't matter. At all.
01:44:18 <elliott> pikhq: Would YOU move DOSIDLE.EXE there?!?!??!?!
01:44:23 <elliott> Would you STEAL a KITTEN?!
01:44:43 <pikhq> Bweheheh. The 8 inch floppy was marketed in terms of the number of punchcards you could put on there.
01:44:50 <pikhq> elliott: No, but I would download a kitten.
01:44:59 <elliott> pikhq: Would YOU move DOSIDLE.EXE there?!?!??!?!
01:45:04 <pikhq> elliott: Sure, I guess.
01:45:13 <elliott> THAT'S LIKE DOWNLOADING A KITTEN ;__;
01:45:24 <pikhq> elliott: I'd also download a Kitten.
01:45:33 <elliott> pikhq: WHOOPS YOU CAN'T LOL
01:46:05 <Sgeo> I should do some homework
01:46:11 <Sgeo> Then do something resembling sleep
01:46:29 <pikhq> elliott: うん、可愛さがあるね。
01:46:33 <catseye> I am so going to hack blackbox to add the Gnome virtual desktop slidey keys to it
01:46:43 <pikhq> (yes, it possesses cuteness.)
01:46:50 <catseye> I am so going to install rxvt-unicode so I can see what pikhq is saying
01:46:57 <elliott> catseye: Or just a graphical client
01:47:02 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Bweheheh. The 8 inch floppy was marketed in terms of the number of punchcards you could put on there. <-- awesome! How many was it?
01:47:04 <elliott> catseye: (or you could just use uxterm)
01:47:28 <Vorpal> elliott, I would have expected like, 20 or so
01:47:46 <Vorpal> ah you were making it up
01:47:59 <pikhq> Vorpal: Pretty sure 20 was the number, but I can't find the actual number ATM.
01:48:03 <elliott> I love how common Apache 1.3.37 is.
01:48:22 <Vorpal> pikhq, heh, I guess I'm good at guessing
01:48:45 <elliott> Vorpal: to be fair it's like 1/4 the size
01:48:54 <elliott> so for a punch card-sized bunch of floppies you're getting like
01:49:02 <Vorpal> they should market hdds in number of punchcards!
01:49:27 <elliott> Vorpal: "My car gets 40 rods to the hogshead and that's the way I likes it."
01:49:47 <Vorpal> elliott, archaic units I presume
01:49:59 <Vorpal> elliott, I never heard of them though
01:50:19 <pikhq> A 3½" floppy disk is not 3.5 inches.
01:50:27 <catseye> I... Falcon doesn't build on NetBSD
01:50:40 <catseye> /home/catseye/build/Falcon-0.9.6.6/engine/signals_posix.cpp:119: error: 'SIGRTMIN' was not declared in this scope
01:50:52 <Vorpal> first floppy listed by wikipedia is "8-inch - IBM 23FD (read-only)"
01:51:14 <elliott> Vorpal: It's 504 gallons per mile.
01:51:23 <catseye> this is apparently POSIX, though
01:51:26 <pikhq> Not to mention a 1.44MB floppy disk only stores 1.40 MiB.
01:51:38 <Vorpal> 79.7 kiB, first read-write was 175 kB
01:51:44 <elliott> Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Simpson said it, anyway.
01:51:52 <elliott> Frink's web interface is down.
01:53:08 <catseye> |tell Phantom_Hoover I AM HACKING AT FALCON'S SOURCE CODE!
01:53:39 <Vorpal> catseye, how horrible is it?
01:53:50 <Sgeo> catseye, why would you deliberately do this?
01:54:59 <elliott> catseye: ew, dosidle switches start with -!
01:55:21 <elliott> catseye: proposal: "tell" becomes something like
01:55:29 <elliott> |append ~Phantom_Hoover/inbox Hello, world!
01:55:29 <storkbot> elliott: omg u errored teh syntax!!1!
01:55:37 <pikhq> elliott: Fun fact: / is a valid path seperator on DOS.
01:56:05 <pikhq> elliott: And has been as long as it's had path seperators.
01:56:15 <Vorpal> elliott, that syntax is a bit cumbersome
01:56:27 <elliott> Vorpal: but storkbot isn't about uncumbersomeness!
01:56:34 <catseye> Vorpal: I am. Vorpal: I only looked long enough to add #include <signal.h> to a file. Sgeo: Because I am crazy. elliott: fascinating
01:56:35 <elliott> |~Phantom_Hoover/inbox+=Hello, world!
01:56:36 <storkbot> elliott: omg u errored teh syntax!!1!
01:56:36 <Vorpal> elliott, but if our goal isn't about being practical, then fine
01:57:10 <elliott> http://h3g3m0n.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/qemu-win3111.png
01:57:14 <catseye> Vorpal is on the PGM team for storkbot
01:57:15 <Vorpal> elliott, weird, I thought I typed "the goal"
01:57:18 <Quadlex> I should get some work done
01:57:43 <Vorpal> Quadlex, REFERENCE NOTED :P
01:58:26 <Vorpal> elliott, invent backstory for minesweeper
01:58:32 <elliott> catseye: Ironic that SP\ASM's zip isn't 8.3, and when expanded it results in a directory which isn't 8.3.
01:58:36 <catseye> Vorpal: Program Management.
01:58:47 <Sgeo> Why are you here?
01:58:48 <Vorpal> elliott, yes, it would be so silly
01:58:48 <catseye> The "G" might stand for something too. I forget.
01:59:05 <elliott> Program -- Great -- Management!
01:59:52 <Vorpal> elliott, you are a soldier, send out to clear a mine field. However your detection equipment is very poor. You have a probe you stick into the ground and it gives you a crude proximity value. If too close it has a big chance of setting off the mine.
01:59:58 <Vorpal> Like the plot/backstory?
02:00:20 <catseye> /usr/include/sys/signal.h:#define SIGRTMIN 33 /* Kernel only; not exposed to userland yet */
02:00:32 <elliott> pikhq: there's even a "port" of it to modern windows classic themes :D
02:00:36 <catseye> Falcon only builds on "real time" OSes.
02:00:59 <catseye> Well, it requires SIGRTMIN, which is a Posix "real time" signal of some sort.
02:01:10 <elliott> catseye: I thnk SP\ASM is the WORST SOFTWARE EVER
02:01:13 <catseye> In NetBSD, for whatever reason, ONLY THE KERNEL CODE KNOWS THIS SIGNAL.
02:01:33 <elliott> catseye: just #define SIGRTMIN 33 in a falcon header somewhere and get on with life :P
02:01:36 <elliott> Sgeo: you don't want to know
02:01:41 <Vorpal> Sgeo, slow with clicking links eh?
02:01:43 <catseye> conclusion: Must Deeper Hack!
02:01:47 <Vorpal> elliott, it is quite absurd indeed
02:02:08 <Vorpal> elliott, uh <elliott> http://h3g3m0n.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/qemu-win3111.png
02:02:12 <Sgeo> I just found the link
02:02:20 <Sgeo> It wasn't labelled as Hotdog Stand
02:02:23 <pikhq> elliott: You are an ordinary man, trying to live your life after the great Mine Wars. Unfortunately, your only hint of mines is the bizarre Mine Numbers, which a crazy scientist for the Reds invented via genetic engineering.
02:02:38 <pikhq> elliott: If you can clear the area of mines, then you have a chance of getting a good night's sleep tonight.
02:02:53 <elliott> You start a new game after that.
02:02:56 <elliott> EVERYONE MUST BE PROTECTED
02:03:05 <Vorpal> pikhq, awesome idea too
02:03:12 <pikhq> elliott: That's the next day's work.
02:03:17 <catseye> http://pastie.org/1256956 (WARNING FALCON CODE)
02:03:32 <catseye> they put the #ifdef in stupid place.
02:03:41 <catseye> i could submit this change as a PATCH to them
02:04:43 <Sgeo> Surely the practical effect of fixing it is incredibly limited
02:04:57 <Sgeo> Unless every single nanosecond counts
02:04:57 <catseye> Sgeo: the practical effect of the whole file seems pretty limited
02:05:10 <catseye> it is introducing builtin identifiers which don't seem to be implemented yet
02:05:27 <elliott> catseye: just try and convince me that DEBUG isn't the best program ever
02:05:53 <catseye> elliott: i'm afraid i can't do that, dave
02:07:51 <Vorpal> elliott, the size difference is stunning: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Floppy_Disk_Drive_8_inch.jpg
02:08:21 <catseye> Sgeo: No, I'm wrong; that's not what it does.
02:08:29 <elliott> Vorpal: omg i want that so fucking much
02:08:38 <elliott> floppies feel crap, you know?
02:08:46 <elliott> but that... i would totally not feel bad about putting that in a drive and using it
02:08:55 <Vorpal> elliott, the large one. But which way should you mount it in your computer?
02:08:58 <catseye> Sgeo: The practical effect of fixing it is to get it to build on NetBSD (outside the kernel)
02:09:02 <elliott> Vorpal: PROBABLY VERTICALLY
02:09:09 <elliott> catseye: FALCON KERNEL MODULE
02:09:56 <Vorpal> elliott, dude, think of the little sanity he has left
02:10:27 <elliott> how do you use DEBUG to disassemble? :P
02:14:01 <elliott> ...doesn't work in NT cmd though :)
02:14:04 <elliott> type null >foo works there
02:14:07 <catseye> where do they get off calling David Livingstone "Mr."?
02:14:30 <Vorpal> elliott, SEE THE INSANITY YOU CAUSED!
02:15:01 <Vorpal> elliott, <catseye> where do they get off calling David Livingstone "Mr."?
02:15:27 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Livingstone
02:16:44 <catseye> Vorpal: YES THEY CALL HIM 'Mr.' IN THEIR EXAMPLE CODE ON THEIR WEBPAGE
02:17:06 <catseye> "Mr. Livingstone, I presume?" THIS IS SO WRONG, YOU SEE?
02:17:12 <Sgeo> catseye, um... why would it make a difference?
02:17:16 <Sgeo> Compiler complaints?
02:17:34 <catseye> Sgeo: Yes. See above. NetBSD SIGRTMIN etc etc.
02:17:39 <Vorpal> catseye, file a bug report
02:18:16 <catseye> Maybe I'll let Phantom_Hoover file the bug report.
02:25:41 <elliott> catseye: How bizarre; it seems that what you do with PL\ASM *is* required.
02:25:51 <elliott> You can't write to a zero-byte COM properly with debug.
02:26:00 <catseye> elliott: imagine that, me doing something necessary to accomplish a goal
02:26:16 <elliott> catseye: EVERYTHING YOU DO IS WRONG
02:26:24 -!- catseye has changed nick to catseye_.
02:26:30 <elliott> catseye_: MORESO WITH THE UNDERSCORE
02:28:19 <pikhq> catseye_: How dare you.
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02:29:01 * Quadlex hands Vorpal his card, Quadlex, esq; Grue and Snark Hunter Extrodinare; {Boojums Extra}
02:29:40 <elliott> catseye: âêérty;A@~ææ@ł¹²³
02:29:41 <catseye_> I can't get their falcon bot to run because it can't find the regex libs.
02:29:55 <catseye> Uh, so yeah, I don't think urxvt works.
02:30:08 <catseye> Unless you're messing with me.
02:30:59 <elliott> C:\>debug C:\DOS\DEBUG.EXE
02:31:08 <elliott> catseye: ¹²³ is superscript 123
02:31:27 <catseye> Might need font, might need, who knows, I don't care.
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02:32:08 <elliott> catseye: the xfce terminal is pretty lightweight andn ice
02:32:55 <elliott> hmm, debug seems useless for debugging but nice for everything else :)
02:32:58 <elliott> now to try and get it to disassemble
02:33:25 <catseye> you have to configure it during build to build the regex "feather" for Falcon
02:33:39 <catseye> i overuse the word horrible, too.
02:33:59 <elliott> but i'm trying to cut down on it
02:34:03 <elliott> i use it a ludicrous amount
02:36:49 <elliott> catseye: did you ever use SP\ASM for any actual program?
02:38:05 <elliott> catseye: surely you could hack up labels
02:38:46 <elliott> catseye: I mean from within debug :)
02:38:52 <Gregor> Making the code I wrote at Microsoft run on Linux: Pretty epic?
02:39:02 <catseye> yeayeah soon i'll have falcon with FEATHERS!
02:39:12 <elliott> Gregor: Other things developed at Microsoft Research that run on Linux: GHC
02:39:25 <elliott> Gregor: I like how we've all given up on WebSplat.
02:39:43 <Gregor> elliott: I haven't but I have lots and lots of other things to do. Also, GHC wasn't DEVELOPED at MSR, it was folded into MSR.
02:39:51 <elliott> It IS developed at MSR, though.
02:39:59 <Gregor> Well, yeah, but it didn't start there :P
02:40:07 <elliott> Gregor: And even then it's more like "people at MSR are paid to develop it", not "it is now an MSR project" :P
02:42:15 <Gregor> I'm surprised by how compatible Mono is with Visual Studio's "solution" format.
02:44:20 <pikhq> Doesn't Microsoft Research have a few patches in Linux?
02:44:37 <elliott> pikhq: SSSSH DON'T LET THE LAWYERS HEAR YOU
02:45:07 <Gregor> You guys are totally not helping my triumph :P
02:45:31 <elliott> Gregor: for maximum dissonance release it under the gpl3
02:45:40 <elliott> hmm, i say "the gpl" but "gpl[23]"
02:45:41 <Gregor> elliott: That I do not have the right to do :P
02:47:02 <pikhq> Gregor: What license?
02:48:31 <elliott> pikhq: Microsoft Public Sperm-Ownership License
02:49:07 <catseye> ERROR:terminal-app.c:1450:terminal_app_init: assertion failed: (app->default_profile_id != NULL)
02:49:07 <Gregor> pikhq: This Microsoft Research License Agreement
02:49:16 <Gregor> Err, THE bleh bleh bleh
02:49:25 <elliott> catseye: gtk apps fail assertions all the time
02:49:39 <catseye> elliott: no starty, no worky.
02:49:41 <Gregor> pikhq: It's only licensed to me and my advisor.
02:49:46 <catseye> [2] Abort trap (core dumped) gnome-terminal
02:49:50 <elliott> Gregor: I LIKE HOW MICROSOFT OWNS YOUR SHIT
02:50:05 <Gregor> elliott: I did write it at Microsoft. While being paid by them. Paid a lot.
02:50:05 <elliott> catseye: maybe you should use Debian/kFreeBSD instead or something
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02:50:34 * Gregor forgets his scruples while rolling in piles of money.
02:50:38 <catseye> yay falbot found the regex libs and managed to crash on its OWN code instead!!!
02:51:02 <catseye> i'm just swimming in fail here right now
02:51:03 <Gregor> pikhq_: It's a "Microsoft Research License Agreement"
02:51:12 <Gregor> pikhq_: It's only licensed to me and my advisor.
02:51:14 <catseye> elliott: xfce will save my soul!
02:51:20 <elliott> catseye: just install xfce entirely
02:51:38 <pikhq_> Gregor: That explains why I can't find details — it's not a Shared Source license at all.
02:51:40 <elliott> "all Jumps must be to hexadecimal addresses (no labels can be used)"
02:51:47 <catseye> elliott: YOU CALLED IT BORING
02:51:54 <elliott> catseye: it sort of is! but in an excellent way
02:52:03 <elliott> i mean it sucks of COURSE but it's also nice.
02:53:16 <pikhq_> catseye: XFCE is definitely the best desktop environment out there right now.
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02:53:55 <pikhq> Primarily because it doesn't do anything completely and utterly retarded.
02:54:07 <pikhq> Which, surprisingly, goes a long way in software.
02:54:17 <catseye> catseyecatseyecatseye$ falcon ./falbot.fal
02:54:17 <catseye> ERROR: error while scanning directory
02:54:22 <elliott> pikhq: It does have its own configuration database though. Sigh.
02:54:27 <catseye> NEVER MIND why my prompt has my username x3
02:54:28 <elliott> catseye: please tell me that's your actual prompt
02:54:38 <catseye> elliott: that is the result of . ~/.shrc twice
02:54:45 <elliott> catseye: maybe it does like
02:54:46 <catseye> elliott: sorry to break your heart
02:55:04 <elliott> catseye: oh, so that $ vs # is preserved
02:55:05 <pikhq> elliott: Yeah, well, ... That's actually pretty stupid.
02:55:27 <pikhq> elliott: What's wrong with using files on "everything is a file" fucking UNIX?
02:55:38 <elliott> pikhq: nothing's been a file since networking and ioctl came along
02:55:41 <catseye> catseyecatseyecatseye$ falcon ./falbot.fal
02:55:42 <elliott> also, every process function
02:55:42 <catseye> ERROR: error while scanning directory /home/pnema/dev/falcon/falcon-website/live/data
02:55:50 <catseye> yes i'd say this software is usable
02:55:59 <pikhq> elliott: Still the motto, even if it is a bit of a lie.
02:56:22 <elliott> pikhq: linux is maybe 2x "everything is a file" as windows is
02:56:24 <elliott> which is still pretty terrible
02:56:26 <catseye> good things about Falcon: makes Python look acceptable.
02:56:55 <pikhq> elliott: Yeah, yeah, the only true implementation of that these days is Plan 9.
02:57:21 <elliott> hmm, I wonder how Plan 9 does file permissions? I've actually never checked
03:13:11 <catseye> for pkg in `pkg_info | awk '{ print $1 }'`; do (pkg_info -R $pkg | grep 'Required' >/dev/null) || echo $pkg; done
03:13:37 <catseye> ^ list of all leaf packages (no depedents) insalled from pkgsrc
03:16:49 <catseye> elliott will certainly find way to improve it when he somes back. Then he will deride Sgeo
03:18:39 <catseye> mmmmm back to building Qt from source
03:25:17 <catseye> I should "improve" my "bot" while I eat "cold cereal"
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04:02:28 <benuphoenix> Off-Topic: I need advice: Should I give my dog her own e-mail address?
04:03:03 <pikhq> However, she *should* have her own UUID.
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04:12:13 <benuphoenix> catseye: Usually, the topic of a channel is not related to asking about pet email accounts
04:13:23 <catseye> benuphoenix: Anyway, I agree with pikhq. Your bitch does not need an e-mail address; that's old media! Get with the times and open a Facebook account for her.
04:14:41 <benuphoenix> i'll have to make an email address for her first...
04:16:48 <benuphoenix> i'll use my own domain so that I won't have to lie about her age
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04:23:27 <Sgeo> Tomorrow I go to learn stuff that I hope I never need to use
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04:33:23 <pikhq> 忍者医師が来た！(ninnsìȳaisi kà kita!)
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04:55:07 <Gregor> I want to find some economic predictor that uses the price of tea in china as a reference.
04:55:17 <Gregor> So when people say "But what's that got to do with the price of tea in China?"
04:56:55 <storkbot> catseye: Unknown command. Type '|help' for help.
04:57:43 <catseye> should probably be .errmsgs
05:00:34 <storkbot> catseye: Assign a user-scope variable with ~/foo=1. Assign a server-scope variable with /bar=1. Assign a channel-scope variable with #baz=1.
05:01:48 <benuphoenix> Juno (The dog) sent her first test email, asking to be pet. Now, I have to give her a facebook
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05:12:51 <Gregor> benuphoenix: How did you find my other network? :P
05:17:44 <benuphoenix> Gregor: I learned about this channel during my days in Agora.
05:18:07 <elliott> benuphoenix: hmm, what name did you play under again?
05:18:26 * elliott tries to connect what benuphoenix just said about agora with Gregor talking about presumably-irc networks
05:18:41 <elliott> catseye: it should be #/foo not #foo
05:18:47 <elliott> catseye: then you can do ##php/morons and the like
05:19:09 <Gregor> benuphoenix: There is a FALCON roosting in my CHIMNEY.
05:19:43 <elliott> benuphoenix: ok, seriously. why don't you use tab complete?
05:20:32 <catseye> Gregor: But will you hire a PLUMBER to feed it SCALLIONS? *wink*
05:20:56 <elliott> catseye: I'm almost at a loss wrt labels in SP\ASM :P
05:21:29 <storkbot> catseye: {{msg="hi",from="catseye"}}
05:22:07 <elliott> |~/msgs = {{msg="hi",from="your mom"}}
05:22:08 <storkbot> elliott: {{msg="hi",from="your mom"}}
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05:22:16 <catseye> elliott: that is a lua table and you can't manipulate it
05:22:24 <elliott> catseye: dude you suck make it syntax
05:22:24 <Gregor> catseye: That would cost too FEW of the CALENDARS.
05:23:01 <elliott> catseye: go to hell asswipe, omg thanks you're awesome
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05:25:17 <elliott> catseye: wait, debug outputs the locations as it assembles to them
05:25:24 <elliott> |~/msgs = {{msg="hi",from="your mom"}}
05:25:24 <storkbot> elliott: {{msg="hi",from="your mom"}}
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05:26:13 <elliott> <elliott> |tell elliott dojgidfg
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05:26:26 <elliott> catseye: we have different definitions of broken
05:26:44 <Gregor> `echo I haven't broken yet! Although it will take me a while to reply.
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05:27:13 <HackEgo> I haven't broken yet! Although it will take me a while to reply.
05:27:14 <catseye> elliott: not really. it's more accurate to say i was lying.
05:27:24 <elliott> catseye: yeah well FUCK ALL LIARS
05:27:34 <elliott> |tell elliott magic happens
05:27:36 <storkbot> elliott: elliott told me to tell you: magic happens
05:27:58 -!- elliott has changed nick to asjdasjd.
05:28:01 <storkbot> asjdasjd: {{msg="artichokes",from="elliott"}}
05:28:09 <asjdasjd> catseye: ONLY SMRT AS SMRT CAN DO
05:28:14 -!- asjdasjd has changed nick to elliott.
05:28:19 <elliott> |~elliott/msgs=can't touch this
05:28:19 <storkbot> elliott: elliott told me to tell you: artichokes
05:28:19 <storkbot> elliott: Unknown command. Type '|help' for help.
05:29:00 <catseye> i suppose it should, but, meh
05:29:04 <storkbot> elliott: Unknown command. Type '|help' for help.
05:29:21 <elliott> catseye: is there any way to execute one command and then another command?
05:29:25 <elliott> JUST A WISHLIST ENTRY Y'KNOW
05:29:36 <storkbot> catseye: Help is available for: assignment expressions print goto tell source errors
05:29:52 <elliott> catseye: I AM UNDERWHELMED SIR
05:30:17 <elliott> i like this hate thing you and me are developing
05:31:26 <catseye> i should probably not hang out here so much
05:31:30 <catseye> i would get a lot more done
05:31:37 <elliott> catseye: but a lot less hating done
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05:37:21 <catseye> elliott: NetBSD. I use it now. So install it.
05:38:05 <catseye> Alright, I'll let it slide *this* time.
05:38:29 <elliott> catseye: besides, a lot of linux distros don't even support this ethernet card(!)
05:38:33 <elliott> for instance, Tiny Core Linux
05:38:38 <elliott> catseye: I *very* much doubt NetBSD will :)
05:39:52 <elliott> "reenfeoffing" -- best word in the english language?
05:40:09 <catseye> then i reserve the right to switch this back to Maverick. Possibly repartitioning so's I can have a FreeDOS partition too.
05:40:22 <elliott> catseye: i thought maverick annoyed you
05:40:27 <elliott> anyway, /me is rocking debian here
05:40:44 <elliott> catseye: freedos? pah, install DOS 6
05:40:54 <catseye> only where it gets commercial. also, it IS slower than NetBSD, even factoring out the GUI
05:40:56 <benuphoenix> Sgeo: Juno now has a functioning facebook.
05:41:21 <elliott> benuphoenix: please tell me beowulf.benuphoenix.com is an actual beowulf cluster
05:41:28 <elliott> catseye: it totally is, stick with netbsd FOREVER
05:42:03 <catseye> elliott: give me ntfs filesystem access here, and i totally would probably maybe
05:42:13 <elliott> catseye: it has fuse does it not?
05:42:24 <elliott> benuphoenix: http://www.google.com/search?q=beowulf%20cluster
05:42:25 <catseye> ...does it? oh, it may indeed
05:42:30 <elliott> catseye: it does have FUSE, yes.
05:42:37 <elliott> catseye: you may need to install the stuff somehow
05:42:43 <elliott> catseye: it probably has an ntfs-3g package
05:42:44 <catseye> that means ntfs-3g can run in userspace, right?
05:42:50 <elliott> catseye: that's how ntfs-3g is designed, yes
05:42:52 <elliott> catseye: it's what ubuntu uses
05:43:13 <elliott> catseye: "NTFS-3G is an open source cross-platform implementation of the Microsoft Windows NTFS file system with read-write support. NTFS-3G often uses the FUSE file system interface, so it can run unmodified on many different operating systems. It is runnable on Linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD, ..."
05:43:14 <catseye> the bsd people are allergic to gpl code in the kernel, so yay! that's finally solved around
05:43:25 <elliott> also in that list is Haiku
05:43:46 <catseye> elliott: OK, I *may* stay with this.
05:43:56 <elliott> MWAHAHA MY EVIL PLAN WORKED (what's my evil plan again?)
05:44:04 <elliott> catseye: have you installed xfce yet?
05:44:11 <elliott> that will probably make things a whole loss less painful, yeah.
05:44:23 <elliott> catseye: bsds were gentoo before gentoo :)
05:44:28 <catseye> i need to... make X use it
05:44:31 <elliott> or is it more Linux From Scratch...
05:44:51 <elliott> you *could* install a fancy graphical login manager
05:44:55 <elliott> but i have a feeling that's not your thing
05:45:25 <catseye> I used to run... a login manager (not fancy though). don't recall its name
05:45:53 <elliott> catseye: xdm is supremely ugly but you can actually configure it to... not be
05:46:00 <elliott> catseye: we're talking X11 checkerboard-grey background ugly
05:46:19 <elliott> catseye: what's up with the rube license?
05:46:27 <elliott> [[a "freely redistributable" licence (not open source, but not closed source either.)]]
05:46:41 <elliott> * Freely redistributable unmodified for non-commmercial purposes.
05:46:45 <elliott> still, what's up with that :p
05:48:20 <catseye> elliott: what's up with it is just what it says is up with it...
05:48:52 <elliott> catseye: i just mean, it'd be vaguely irritating to rewrite all that for SuperRUBENowWithNetworking
05:49:15 * elliott has never quite been able to understand "look but don't touch" licenses tbh
05:49:17 <catseye> it would be worse to hack it; have you looked at the code?
05:49:24 <elliott> catseye: well. yes. i did notice that
05:49:40 <catseye> also, it is to piss off someone who wanted it to be open source, but who was an asshole about it, tbh.
05:52:21 <elliott> Gregor: do *you* remember seeing that page about maximal sets of installable debian package?
05:52:40 <elliott> Gregor: the guy used a script or something to find the largest set of debian packages such that no package can be added to it as it would cause a conflict
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05:52:53 <elliott> Gregor: thus constituting a list of the most debian packages you can have installed at once
05:53:08 <Gregor> elliott: I don't remember that list, but that's pretty awesome.
05:53:13 <Gregor> Wonder how many TB that would be.
05:53:20 <elliott> Gregor: Uhh, try a few gigs.
05:53:27 <elliott> Gregor: The entire Debian distribution is only a few DVDs.
05:53:34 <elliott> Gregor: And there's no way it was all of Debian.
05:53:36 <Gregor> EXAGGERATION FOR EMPHASIS
05:53:50 <elliott> Gregor: Anyway, yes, it was awesome, and I want to install it.
05:53:57 <elliott> Gregor: Just to see what my menu would look like at the end of it.
05:54:03 <Gregor> elliott: PLAY THE VIOLIN, JOHNNY
05:54:19 <elliott> Gregor: Bonus: You develop a Pavlovian dread at any mention of upgrading computers.
05:54:37 <elliott> "I just upgraded" "NO! NO! OH GOD THE NETWORK USAGE, OH GOD THE BREAKAGE"
05:56:13 <elliott> Gregor: I *think* it might have been Kragen Sitaker.
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06:02:29 <elliott> Gregor: Apparently all the (free) i386 binaries for Debian amount to 18.5 GiB.
06:02:34 <elliott> Gregor: (The source, interestingly, is only 16.8 GiB.)
06:02:57 <elliott> Gregor: So actually, if you have the time to download stuff, whatever subset is maximal would be pretty feasible to install.
06:03:10 <elliott> catseye: I'm talking about every single piece of software for i386 in their repositories.
06:03:26 <catseye> yet a single modern disk dwarfs it
06:03:52 <elliott> catseye: Hell, I could store it on five of these little dirt-cheap 4 gig USB sticks.
06:04:06 <elliott> And have 1.5 GiB left over to store, I don't know, photographs.
06:04:12 <Gregor> elliott: 18.5 GiB of packages or installed?
06:04:30 <elliott> Gregor: I am not sure; it is from http://lists.canonical.org/pipermail/kragen-tol/2010-October/000928.html, as I am searching that list to find the post.
06:04:36 <elliott> | Current Debian stable source (5.0.6) | 16.8GB | lots of free software |
06:04:37 <elliott> | Debian i386 binaries | 18.5GB | same, but compiled |
06:04:37 <elliott> |--------------------------------------+--------+-----------------------|
06:04:51 <catseye> hhhhhhh i just started xfce4-session while blackbox was still running ok no this is so wrong
06:04:54 <elliott> Gregor: He also listed Wikipedia both compressed and uncompressed.
06:04:57 <elliott> catseye: yeah no don't do that
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06:05:34 <elliott> Gregor: If I can't find it, I'll just write my own stuff to do it.
06:05:46 <elliott> Gregor: I mean, conflicts are relatively rare compared to how many packages there are. So it can't be *that* hard, surely? :)
06:06:03 <Gregor> elliott: It's certainly NP-hard, but if conflicts are sufficiently rare that MAY be OK with a good heuristic :P
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06:06:18 <elliott> Gregor: I want the provably maximal set of Debian packages! Raaawr!
06:06:19 <Gregor> s/certainly/probably, although I have no evidence except that it tastes so,
06:06:43 <catseye> nicely fucked up xfce has snazzy terminal but no way to move or resize it
06:06:53 <elliott> catseye: are you sure you installed xfce
06:06:57 <elliott> Gregor: I'm not sure though. Uhh, hmm.
06:07:01 <catseye> the "window management" part must be missing
06:07:07 <Gregor> http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/UnNews:Post-structuralist_engineer_blamed_for_bridge_disaster
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06:08:20 <elliott> Gregor: Is there a more efficient way to do "for pkg in $(aptitude search . | awk '{print $1}'); do (aptitude show $pkg | grep -c '^Conflicts:' >/dev/null) && echo $pkg; done"? :P
06:08:37 <elliott> Woo, that doesn't even work.
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06:09:32 <elliott> $ for pkg in $(aptitude search . | awk '{if ($2 == "A") { print $3 } else { print $2 }}'); do (aptitude show $pkg | grep -c '^Conflicts:' >/dev/null) && echo $pkg; done
06:09:35 <elliott> there, i think that should work
06:09:48 <elliott> Gregor: Anyway, I imagine the result is rather short.
06:10:37 <elliott> Gregor: Dear god it is so slow :P
06:13:25 <elliott> Gregor: There are rather more conflicting packages than I imagined X-P
06:13:52 <elliott> Gregor: If you're daring, just list out every package and send it to aptitude install. (Note: When I did this, aptitude and apt-get both exited without giving me any diagnostics.)
06:14:31 <elliott> WHAT ON GOD'S EARTH COULD AEWM CONFLICT WITH
06:14:38 <elliott> Gregor: Of course this is only packages that directly conflict.
06:14:43 <elliott> Gregor: Anything that *depends* on these... ho ho ho.
06:14:56 <elliott> THAT DOES TOTALLY NOT COUNT GUYS
06:14:59 <elliott> YOU SUCK AT PACKAGE MANAGEMENT
06:15:26 <elliott> Gregor: Most of these conflicts are just setting minimum versions on non-dependencies :P
06:16:35 <catseye> erk. blackbox is written in C++
06:17:09 <elliott> catseye: xfwm! defender of the galaxyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
06:17:25 <catseye> elliott: i'm looking for one i can hack on easily
06:17:33 <elliott> catseye: or aewm, but lwm is better
06:17:39 <elliott> catseye: http://www.jfc.org.uk/software/lwm.html
06:18:04 <elliott> catseye: you will have to make an .Xresources/.Xdefaults to make it click-to-focus if you like that sort of thing
06:18:13 <elliott> catseye: and if that doesn't load, xrdb -merge .that in your .xinitrc ofc
06:18:19 <elliott> X resources are insane shit.
06:19:21 <elliott> Gregor: it's totally on to listing the ars
06:19:41 <Gregor> elliott: G'luck with that.
06:19:49 <elliott> Gregor: i am... probably sleeping before this is done
06:19:56 <elliott> Gregor: but can you IMAGINE the menu?
06:20:12 <elliott> Gregor: "I'm gonna start the GIHOOOOOOLY SHIIIIIIIT"
06:20:40 <elliott> "ok, emacs... ema<TAB> Did you mean: emasculate?"
06:22:09 <elliott> <rww> elliott: do you plan on installing this monstrosity?
06:22:09 <elliott> <rww> because I'd be vaguely interested in how many hours that takes to boot :\
06:22:12 <elliott> Gregor: THAT'D BE ANOTHER ISSUE WOULDN'T IT
06:22:17 <elliott> Starting hot-babe-daemon...
06:22:33 <catseye> elliott: you are mentioned in the lwm sources
06:22:45 <elliott> catseye: that is but one Elliott Hughes, who is cool and also originally wrote lwm
06:22:53 <elliott> catseye: his username is elliotth. not shitting you
06:23:11 <elliott> catseye: he also maintains an editor/IDE/thing that's based on plan 9's acme!
06:23:19 <elliott> catseye: but it's written in java, so. i don't like him *too* much
06:23:28 <elliott> http://software.jessies.org/
06:24:50 <catseye> /* Lasciate ogni speranza voi ch'entrate... */
06:25:43 <elliott> catseye: i actually used lwm for a while!
06:26:11 <elliott> catseye: you should totally add alt+right-mouse-drag for resizing if you want to make me happy.
06:26:17 <catseye> O XWindows. O, thou art not to be trifled with.
06:26:21 <elliott> catseye: oh, also hackable is http://www.6809.org.uk/evilwm/
06:26:31 <elliott> catseye: which, while probably too minimalist for your tastes, is certainly a base.
06:26:43 <elliott> catseye: (it lacks, say, window borders.)
06:27:00 <elliott> catseye: warning, lwm packages are sometimes inexplicably out of date
06:27:07 <elliott> also warning: latest stable lwm is newer than development lwm, i think
06:30:45 <elliott> catseye: well if you want fun go evilwm
06:30:50 <elliott> catseye: you get to write your own window decorations
06:31:03 <elliott> catseye: you could try aewm... dunno what license it's under
06:31:12 <elliott> that's based on 9wm but 9wm has no window decorations beyond a border
06:31:16 <elliott> so aewm is probably a nicer base
06:31:20 <elliott> <fishcooker> what's the benefit core i3 to the gnu/linux?!
06:31:25 <elliott> oh, #debian, thou art so retarded.
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06:34:22 <elliott> fritzthecat_: You should be called fittsthecat. It's more ergonomic.
06:37:30 <elliott> fritzthecat_: do you know what this channel is about?
06:37:32 <elliott> many people who come in here don't
06:38:22 <catseye> it's about the real hell (see topic)
06:38:48 <fritzthecat_> i think paranormal things like telepathie and so
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06:40:08 <elliott> fritzthecat_: you think'st wrong!
06:40:26 <elliott> fritzthecat_: this channel is about esoteric programming languages; computer programming languages designed to be strange or interesting, out of the norm.
06:40:48 <elliott> fritzthecat_: freenode is an IRC network for open projects, usually technical in nature; you are unlikely to find what you seek here.
06:41:00 <elliott> well. erlang isn't quite esoteric, but yes.
06:41:55 <fritzthecat_> so i think this room is also interesting for me ;-)
06:42:17 <elliott> fritzthecat_: yes, that is quite likely.
06:42:19 <pikhq> Alas, he haþ yet to leave. Faſcinating.
06:42:22 <elliott> very rare we get someone who knows anything about both.
06:42:29 <catseye> elliott: evilwm has an accretion of MIT-esque licenses
06:42:31 <elliott> pikhq: are you *trying* to drive people away? :)
06:42:36 <elliott> catseye: ok i have a solution
06:42:43 <elliott> catseye: throw it all away and start from scratch
06:42:55 <elliott> pikhq: hey, he said the actual purpose of this place is relevant to his interests
06:42:58 <elliott> no point driving him away :p
06:43:02 <catseye> elliott: no, no, evilwm is good for me to learn from by modifying.
06:43:15 <elliott> catseye: YOU'RE NOT GOING TO RELEASE IT?! i can hardly believe it.
06:43:38 <elliott> catseye: http://www.freenet.org.nz/python/evilwm/ or how about a python version? dear god.
06:43:51 <catseye> no please no argh no ouch no please
06:43:53 <elliott> catseye: http://incise.org/tinywm.html this is the best wm anyway
06:44:05 <elliott> catseye: it's like 30 lines long! not reparenting! no borders at all!
06:44:23 <elliott> catseye: focus-follows-mouse but a keybinding to raise!
06:45:10 <elliott> also notable for being licensed under http://www.opensource.org/licenses/fair.php, which is possibly the shortest OSI approved license
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06:45:45 <elliott> (they don't even say anything about it on http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html)
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06:46:46 <elliott> pikhq: X Hotdog Stand: http://www.bio.ifi.lmu.de/~steiner/linux/ctwm.jpg
06:46:58 <elliott> this is an argument for not supporting themes.
06:47:11 <pikhq_> US media are criticising Jon Stewart for... Referring to Obama as "dude".
06:47:34 <pikhq_> Because Nazi fascist muslim jewish communist tyrant is just fine, but dude is too damned far.
06:48:07 <elliott> pikhq_: i totally want to see obama and jon stewart just chillin'
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06:48:36 <pikhq_> elliott: Well, last night's episode was a half-hour interview with Obama.
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06:49:24 <elliott> too much serious talking, not enough laid-backness
06:49:30 <pikhq_> elliott: Legalise pot and it might happen.
06:49:46 <elliott> pikhq_: obama is too chill to care about laws man
06:49:52 <elliott> what have they ever done for him
06:50:16 <elliott> If you are contemplating writing a new license, please also contact us at <licensing@fsf.org>. The proliferation of different free software licenses is a significant problem in the free software community today, both for users and developers. We will do our best to help you find an existing free software license that meets your needs.
06:50:27 <elliott> pikhq_: does this read like an "if you are considering committing suicide" paragraph to you, too?
06:51:08 <elliott> http://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/html_node/License-Notices-for-Other-Files.html
06:51:15 <elliott> pikhq_: GNU do an actually-free license ^
06:51:22 <catseye> Do you sometimes feel awkward at parties? The FSF can help you with that.
06:51:53 <catseye> Here, take one of the FSF's free personality tests.
06:51:56 <pikhq_> catseye: Yes, with the RMS course in socialising you can feel awkward at all times.
06:52:31 <elliott> pikhq_: have you seen the video where he's answering a question, and he *picks stuff off his bare feet*, and then he *eats it*?
06:52:39 <elliott> it's... it's, yeah, it's... yeah
06:52:46 <pikhq_> elliott: No, but I've heard of it.
06:52:54 <elliott> pikhq_: don't watch it, it's vomiticious
06:53:21 <pikhq_> elliott: He has basically no understanding of social norms.
06:53:26 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
06:53:48 <elliott> pikhq: he doesn't NEED to, he's a VISIONARY
06:54:03 <elliott> pikhq: he SINGLE-HANDEDLY managed to convince people that "free" meant "heavily-restricted"
06:54:54 <pikhq> Problem is that acting like a negative stereotype of geeks (... Going all the way down to the carnival performer) is not exactly the best way to win people over. :)
06:55:02 <elliott> "When MIT's Laboratory for Computer Science (LCS) installed a password control system in 1977, Stallman found a way to decrypt the passwords and sent users messages containing their decoded password, with a suggestion to change it to the empty string (that is, no password) instead, to re-enable anonymous access to the systems. Around 20% of the users followed his advice at the time, although passwords
06:55:02 <elliott> ultimately prevailed. Stallman boasted of the success of his campaign for many years afterward."
06:55:12 <pikhq> (*has* he bit the head off of chickens?)
06:55:33 <elliott> pikhq: "I broke a password encryption algorithm and then emailed EVERYONE with their password. About 20% of people were crazy enough to decide that the solution was to have no password at all. I WIN!"
06:55:52 <elliott> [[When Brian Reid in 1979 placed time bombs in Scribe to restrict unlicensed access to the software, Stallman proclaimed it "a crime against humanity."[18] He clarified, years later, that it is blocking the user's freedom that he believes is a crime, not the issue of charging for the software.[19]]]
06:55:56 <catseye> fprintf(stderr, "It must be the warlock Krill!\n"); /* :-) */
06:56:15 <elliott> "Do you have ANY IDEA how many corps fund the FSF now, just to keep us spouting ridiculous shit so that the entire open source community looks ridiculous and proprietary software bloom?"
06:56:46 <elliott> catseye: what codepath? :p
06:57:06 <elliott> catseye: 9wm, btw, is a bit out of date; it lives on as Plan 9 from User Space's rio(1)
06:57:09 <elliott> but as a basis i guess it's good
06:57:17 <catseye> "void circulatereq(e)" -- i think it's a message they don't bother handling?
06:57:22 <elliott> catseye: you'll TOTALLY LOVE my WM! it does EVERYYYTHIIIIING
06:57:25 <pikhq> elliott: The FSF has done a decent number of good things. Buuut they are definitely the far out there fringe of the free/open source software movement...
06:57:39 <elliott> catseye: really it's just my vague attempt at turning unix into plan 9.
06:57:47 <elliott> catseye: which involves making lots of files.
06:58:04 <elliott> pikhq: Presumably you mean code-wise.
06:58:09 <elliott> pikhq: GCC *no*. Coreutils *no*.
06:58:10 <catseye> i can at least read 9wm's source alright, easier than lwm and evilwm fsr
06:58:49 <elliott> pikhq: Emacs *was basically made into what it is by other people, but ok, rms did start it*.
06:59:00 <catseye> yes, while the others suffice with *no*, gdb does deserve a full *eurgh.
06:59:20 <elliott> what happens when you try to make people hate debuggers
06:59:26 <elliott> by giving them a worthless UI
06:59:41 <pikhq> elliott: You want to suffer from infinite pain and agony?
06:59:44 <elliott> "Can you help us modify NoScript so it can detect and block nontrivial nonfree JavaScript code?" --gnu.org
07:00:02 <pikhq> elliott: *All this was an improvement over the commercial UNIXes at the time*.
07:00:06 <elliott> [[Nontrivial JavaScript code is defined in The JavaScript Trap as "if it makes an AJAX request, and consider it nontrivial if it defines methods and either loads an external script or is loaded as one."]]
07:00:12 <elliott> pikhq: are you sure? BSD existed, man
07:00:29 <elliott> pikhq: it had vi... ok, emacs was an improvement, but most of what makes emacs emacs was not done by rms at all
07:00:40 <elliott> pikhq: it had... a kernel, unlike Hurd which is an insanity.
07:00:47 <elliott> pikhq: it had BSD userland.
07:00:48 <catseye> i can't get the footpicking out of my head now. thanks.
07:00:49 <pikhq> elliott: BSD wasn't commercial, and it wasn't legal for people who didn't have a license directly from AT&T until the early 90s.
07:00:52 <elliott> pikhq: ok the debugger i have no idea about
07:01:00 <elliott> pikhq: how much did a license cost?
07:01:14 <pikhq> elliott: It wasn't generally available.
07:01:27 <elliott> pikhq: but universities had it and that's what matters :)
07:01:41 <elliott> pikhq: minix originated 1987
07:01:52 <elliott> pikhq: Sun OS wasn't that bad was it?
07:01:52 <pikhq> elliott: GNU predates it.
07:02:07 <elliott> pikhq: i mean sure it sucked, but....
07:02:12 <pikhq> elliott: Sun OS was and is *revolting*.
07:02:36 <elliott> pikhq: well, maybe i'd have more sympathy if GNU was BSD: The Free Reimplementation Project
07:02:55 <elliott> instead of the let's-see-how-much-we-can-make-Unix-suck project
07:03:40 <pikhq> elliott: GNU was considered wonderful for doing such things as handling lines over 80 characters long.
07:04:01 <pikhq> elliott: Anything with a line buffer.
07:04:15 <elliott> fine, fine, look, i just hate gnu ok :)
07:04:24 <elliott> it stopped making sense as soon as BSD became widely-available
07:04:33 <elliott> http://www.systhread.net/texts/2009xvishist-img/twm-adv.png <-- twm, fuck yeah!
07:04:59 <pikhq> elliott: And if Linus had known about BSD, GNU would still languish in obscurity except for Emacs and probably GCC.
07:05:10 <elliott> pikhq: well he knew bsd existed... 386bsd just didn't exist
07:05:49 <elliott> pikhq: of course his fucking "let's make a simple hobby os" bullshit stopped him manning up and doing the work required to get bsd booting on x86, which was not that much :)
07:05:59 <catseye> My impression was that AT&T looked the other way if you had a BSD you didn't pay for, because they wanted penetration. I could be misremembering.
07:06:09 <elliott> That's what she s-- sorry.
07:07:07 <catseye> what can i say, marketers are perverts
07:08:06 <elliott> catseye: have you used plan 9 ever?
07:09:00 <catseye> elliott: i tried. it wouldn't install
07:09:12 <elliott> catseye: well *yeah* it's designed to run on 386s
07:09:17 <elliott> catseye: that's why you run it in a vm :)
07:09:22 <elliott> almost no modern machines can run it
07:09:50 <elliott> catseye: but it is rather mind-expanding; I thought the Unix philosophy barely existed and was a worthless piece of crap, then I tried Plan 9
07:10:09 <elliott> catseye: and i realised that the worthless pieces of crap are actually everything after unix originated :)
07:10:40 <elliott> catseye: the UI is very nice, and blends textual, linguistic pipey stuff with point-and-clickery
07:10:46 <elliott> and everything really is a file, it's really nice.
07:11:27 <fizzie> From: Mentifex <mentifex@myuw.net>
07:11:27 <fizzie> Newsgroups: comp.lang.objective-c,comp.lang.forth,comp.lang.javascript,comp.lang.lisp
07:11:27 <fizzie> Subject: anybody want to help create mentifex-class AI for iPad?
07:11:27 <fizzie> -- now *there's* a project worth supporting! Thinking iPads!
07:11:51 <fizzie> "You are hereby authorized to go ahead and create, market and sell such an AiApp in the interest of the evolution of AI Minds"
07:11:52 <elliott> fizzie: do you just have a grep for mentifex running 24/7? :)
07:12:04 <elliott> fizzie: I wonder how long until the Mentifexularity.
07:12:09 <fizzie> No, I just read intriguingly titled messages in comp.lang.forth.
07:12:34 <catseye> forth, javascript, and lisp -- the three big AI languages
07:12:50 <catseye> oh AND objC, i missed that
07:13:03 <elliott> catseye: Mentifex's AI is in FOOOOOORTH
07:13:08 <fizzie> "The time is ripe for a massive, Cambrian-explosion-style efflorescence of AI Mind prototypes diverging on a grand scale. When only the Apple iPhone was available, I did not think of creating an AiApp because of the visibly small iPhone screen. Now that the wide-screen iPad is succeedingly wildly, naturally I would like to see an AI for iPad."
07:13:10 <elliott> http://www.systhread.net/texts/2009xvishist-img/e16_adv.png
07:13:20 <elliott> this is everything that's wrong with enlightenment
07:13:25 <fizzie> See, you can't do an AI for the iPhone, the screen is too small.
07:13:26 <elliott> (pointless matrix scroller...)
07:13:39 <elliott> seriously, wow at that gtk font.
07:13:53 <catseye> fizzie: the thought patterns behind that paragraph... oh, where to begin?
07:14:06 <elliott> pikhq: HAHAHAHA Xfce was originally a CDE imitator
07:14:07 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.systhread.net/texts/2009xvishist-img/xfce1.png
07:15:08 <elliott> catseye: hey our sleep schedules are sort of almost synchronised!
07:15:58 <elliott> Gregor: 700 packages that have conflicts up to fxload
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07:16:41 <fizzie> "Page last updated: Nov 26, 2001" -- aw, fvwm95 isn't going so strong.
07:17:07 <fizzie> http://fvwm95.sourceforge.net/screenshot-full.gif -- the awesome.
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11:40:11 <Vorpal> * Quadlex hands Vorpal his card, Quadlex, esq; Grue and Snark Hunter Extrodinare; {Boojums Extra} <-- indeed
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12:26:31 <Vorpal> ais523_, which one is the other one?
12:26:50 <ais523_> but both connections are legit
12:26:59 <Vorpal> ais523_, so wlan works today?
12:26:59 <ais523_> ais523's on a really dodgy wireless connection, though
12:27:03 <ais523_> Vorpal: after around 8 tries
12:27:16 <Vorpal> ais523_, got the code for that uudecode thingy around today?
12:29:40 <ais523> http://pastebin.ca/1976252
12:30:02 <ais523_> for some reason, I have an obfuscated version, but not the original
12:30:05 <Vorpal> ais523, I thought you said it was a human readable COM file?
12:30:15 <ais523_> that's the program that creates the printable COM files
12:30:41 <ais523_> I can't remember what the input and output are; I think they're both specified on the command line
12:30:52 <Vorpal> ais523_, it recursively calls main() =
12:32:34 <ais523_> yes, what's wrong with that?
12:34:13 <fizzie> Why is there an escape sequence for ? (the "\?" there)?
12:35:01 <ais523_> fizzie: becaus two question marks in a row have a special meaning in C
12:35:07 <ais523_> so you have to escape the second one
12:35:20 <ais523_> this means, if you're writing an obfuscated program, you can escape question marks just to confuse people
12:35:25 <Vorpal> ais523_, trigraphs or digraphs?
12:35:36 <Vorpal> ais523_, which of them I meant
12:35:38 <ais523_> (digraphs don't use question marks, incidentally)
12:39:10 <fizzie> I don't think digraphs even work in string literals; they're replaced at a different level. (Trigraph replacement is done in translation stage 1 just after character set mapping, whereas digraphs are just alternative spellings for some punctuation tokens.)
12:41:02 <ais523> you can even use ??/ followed by a newline to break a line in the middle of a keyword
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15:08:52 <catseye> According to my dream last night, monks are brusque and officious, and when you go to Ikea on your lunch break they ask to see ID.
15:09:14 <catseye> they = Ikea "coworkers". Not monks. They were in the other part of the dream.
15:09:30 <Vorpal> catseye, you have very strange dreams :D
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15:17:19 <catseye> this one actually seemed more coherent than most. I had to make an appointment with a monk for some reason -- the monk on the other end of the phone answered with "Name of monk, time, reason" in a kind of pissed-off voice. Also, there was something about taking the cover off of a USB stick so that it could fit into some hand-held device.
15:18:05 <catseye> (I had an Atari cartridge that came out of its case once, but still worked -- it was kind of like that.)
15:19:06 <catseye> So it's not like I was a bowl of pudding and the planets were chasing me because I interrupted their Christmas play, or anything. That would be much stranger.
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15:44:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, or he dreamt that was the case at least
15:44:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes and?
15:45:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, most instructions for assembling non-IKEA stuff is like that too
15:45:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, you're from Sweden. Make up some Ikea instructions, then.
15:45:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ever assembled a table fan?
15:46:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, IKEA instructions aren't that special
15:46:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the special bit is the horde of hex keys you will have if you have lots of IKEA stuff
15:47:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, saves on translation
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15:47:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, "sexkantsnyckel" here (six corner key)
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15:54:35 <cpressey|away> < Phantom_Hoover> Well, they aren't actually _written_, for a start.
15:54:39 -!- cpressey|away has changed nick to cpressey.
15:54:57 <elliott> cpressey: LEGO instructions, dear god
15:55:40 <cpressey> Regardless, I propose the Erlang manual be rewritten in this form.
15:55:42 <elliott> cpressey: so since we're both having strange yet coherent dreams and my last one involved you, i'm sorry about the upcoming holocaust i will unleash on your next one
15:55:54 <elliott> diagrammatic erlang manual
15:59:01 <Vorpal> <cpressey> Like LEGO instructions!
15:59:01 <Vorpal> <cpressey> Also from Sweden!
15:59:12 <Vorpal> as Phantom_Hoover said
15:59:13 <elliott> <cpressey> Also from Sweden!
15:59:13 <elliott> <elliott> cpressey: LEGO instructions, dear god
15:59:13 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> Denmark, you fool!
15:59:26 <cpressey> Yes, thank you Vorpal, correction has already been submitted and processed.
15:59:29 <Vorpal> elliott, Some errors just need multiple corrections
15:59:54 <cpressey> No Swede would want those... those... PLASTIC TOYS accidentally associated with their Nation, I take it.
15:59:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, typo for ki
16:00:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: lazy select and middle-click-paste.
16:00:22 <Vorpal> cpressey, hah, lego is in fact awesome
16:00:45 <Vorpal> <cpressey> Regardless, I propose the Erlang manual be rewritten in this form. <-- oh my
16:00:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, so you have an inferiority complex because the best you could do was a furniture retailer?
16:01:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you forgot we have lots more
16:01:33 <elliott> Saunas! No, wait, that's the Finns.
16:01:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, ah, so the best you could do was *lots* of furniture retailers?
16:01:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, one the major companies in the world that makes mining equipment for example
16:01:56 <elliott> Mining! Yes! Such innovation!
16:02:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, elliott: also erlang
16:02:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh and Agda
16:02:48 <elliott> erlang is a blight, not an achievement >:)
16:02:59 <elliott> now what line am i gonna use for agda
16:03:05 <elliott> i exhausted that one on erlang, which i don't actually mind
16:03:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, OK, a furniture retailer, mining supplies, an unremarkable language and a crappy one which thinks it's a proof assistant.
16:04:04 <elliott> Erlang isn't unremarkable, it's just not *that* amazing :)
16:04:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and, well, olsner?
16:04:36 <Phantom_Hoover> (Actually, Agda is all right as an experimental dependently-typed language, but for some reason people think it can be used to prove things.
16:04:49 <elliott> Vorpal: you should have used Minecraft
16:04:58 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, also surströmming and smörgåsbord. Which shows we can be as nefarious as anyone else.
16:06:26 <elliott> http://paradoxdgn.com/junk/avatars/trollface.jpg
16:06:28 <Vorpal> elliott, I used the Swedish spelling
16:06:32 <elliott> http://paradoxdgn.com/junk/avatars/trollface.jpg
16:07:15 <Vorpal> elliott, hm? Is it worth checking logs for that url? Yesterday evening I started filtering URLs, ais523 had a great idea there.
16:07:35 <elliott> ais523 doesn't filter links any more.
16:07:44 <elliott> And it was such a great idea that you dedicated the next few months to whining about it.
16:08:01 <Vorpal> elliott, he did yesterday, but not his desktop
16:08:15 <elliott> He filters links to remove their clickability.
16:08:21 <elliott> Links are still shown in their entirety.
16:08:36 <Vorpal> elliott, well, lets ask him when he gets back
16:08:45 <elliott> Vorpal: If you want to know, check the freaking logs, he told me himself.
16:09:07 <Vorpal> elliott, sure, I don't care enough to check that however
16:09:20 <elliott> I think Vorpal is now intentionally trying to irritate people.
16:18:20 <cpressey> Vorpal: You forgot the ULTIMATE Swedish export.
16:21:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, Saab too
16:22:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, um they are still going
16:22:19 <Vorpal> saying "going strong" would be a bit exaggerated however
16:22:25 <Vorpal> Saab *never* went strong
16:22:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought there was a mysterious incident in the factory and everyone inside was found dead?
16:22:44 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, no. That was in Norway probably
16:23:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, well known for its mysterious automotive manufacturing incidents.
16:24:04 <elliott> Maybe we should cause there to be a mysterious accident in Sweden and everyone inside would be found dead.
16:24:17 <elliott> We can ship the cool people in here out first. (not Vorpal)
16:24:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes indeed. Very mysterious since officially they don't have any!
16:24:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Nuclear bomb launched from the UK mysterious
16:24:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: VERY MYSTERIOUS
16:24:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: George Bush
16:25:05 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought the UK's arsenal was almost all submarine-carried.
16:26:24 <cpressey> Which would make sense, since the UK is only really at war with Atlantis.
16:28:27 <Vorpal> cpressey, you know that while they are fired from submarines they will go up in the air right?
16:29:47 <cpressey> What would be the point of *that*? Atlantis is on the ocean floor!
16:30:05 <Vorpal> cpressey, confusing the enemy perhaps?
16:30:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, oh, have you been around a nuclear sub lately?
16:30:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, indeed
16:30:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm interesting
16:31:47 <elliott> cpressey did the punchline and you're all ruining it now
16:32:09 <Vorpal> elliott, you fail at meta-humour
16:32:32 <Vorpal> elliott, and who are you to decide that?
16:32:54 <elliott> Vorpal*!*@* added to ignore list. (look ma, i can announce ignores too)
16:33:13 <Vorpal> hm, that should make the place saner
16:33:34 <Vorpal> or at least more on topic
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16:39:24 <elliott> We need oerjan here to tell me how unrealistic my plans are.
16:39:31 <elliott> Actually, we just need oerjan in here full stop.
16:39:59 <elliott> 10.10.22:06:12:31 --- join: oerjan (oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no) joined #esoteric
16:39:59 <elliott> 10.10.22:07:18:00 --- quit: oerjan (Quit: leaving)
16:40:07 <elliott> 10.10.21 was the last time he spoke
16:44:14 -!- Vorpal has set topic: My life with you, Meredith. That's the real hell. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | 8 days since oerjan was last seen.
16:45:17 -!- elliott has set topic: oerjan probably DEAD, real-life NONEXISTENT, 8 WHOLE DAYS without our GLORIOUS PRESENCE | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
16:45:27 <elliott> I refuse to accept any reality that is not #esoteric.
16:46:03 -!- Vorpal has set topic: oerjan likely DEAD, real-life NONEXISTENT, 8 WHOLE DAYS without our GLORIOUS PRESENCE | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
16:46:20 -!- elliott has set topic: oerjan almost certainly DEAD, real-life NONEXISTENT, 8 WHOLE DAYS without our GLORIOUS PRESENCE | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
16:46:33 -!- Vorpal has set topic: oerjan almost certainly DEAD, real-life definitely NONEXISTENT, 8 WHOLE DAYS without our GLORIOUS PRESENCE | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
16:47:21 -!- elliott has set topic: oerjan: 8 days since last oerjan sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
16:47:29 <elliott> ^ul (That's the format that was used for me and I'm stickin' to it.)S
16:47:29 <fungot> That's the format that was used for me and I'm stickin' to it.
16:47:40 <elliott> ^ul (When I, a bot, went missing. Indeed.)S
16:47:40 <fungot> When I, a bot, went missing. Indeed.
16:47:47 -!- Vorpal has set topic: oerjan: 8 whole days since last oerjan sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
16:48:23 <fizzie> I think we should have some sort of daily updated "it's been X days since our last Vorpal-elliott ignore-skirmish" thing in the topic.
16:48:29 -!- elliott has set topic: 8 days since last oerjan sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
16:48:45 <elliott> ^echo (THAT'S EXACTLY THE FORMAT THAT WAS USED FOR ME, YOU ARE DESTROYING THE FABRIC OF THE TOPIC IF YOU VIOLATE ITS PURITY)S
16:48:46 <fungot> (THAT'S EXACTLY THE FORMAT THAT WAS USED FOR ME, YOU ARE DESTROYING THE FABRIC OF THE TOPIC IF YOU VIOLATE ITS PURITY)S (THAT'S EXACTLY THE FORMAT THAT WAS USED FOR ME, YOU ARE DESTROYING THE FABRIC OF THE T ...
16:49:01 <elliott> ^echo (ALSO: oerjan was the one who invented that format. QED)S
16:49:01 <fungot> (ALSO: oerjan was the one who invented that format. QED)S (ALSO: oerjan was the one who invented that format. QED)S
16:49:04 -!- Vorpal has set topic: 8 days since last oerjan sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | 100 % pure topic.
16:49:09 <elliott> Why bother running it through ^ul?
16:49:10 -!- Vorpal has set topic: 8 days since last oerjan sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | 100% pure topic.
16:49:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, funny think is I don't have elliott ignored
16:49:49 <Vorpal> so why is he doing that
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17:18:56 <elliott> ais523_: and he last spoke a day before that
17:19:18 <ais523_> perhaps he's off to do something more serious
17:19:53 <elliott> ais523_: are you *sure* about that? :p
17:20:11 <ais523_> elliott: well, few things are /less/ serious than #esoteric
17:20:25 <elliott> ais523_: yes, but oerjan hasn't been away to do something more serious in...forever
17:22:13 <elliott> ais523_: hmm, I have a theory
17:22:21 <elliott> ais523_: the Windows API is designed to be used from assembly
17:22:37 <ais523_> it's designed to be used from 16-bit C
17:22:43 <elliott> ais523_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netwide_Assembler#Examples_of_programs_for_various_operating_systems
17:22:53 <elliott> ais523_: the second example there is a windows program that outputs a hello world message box
17:22:59 <elliott> ais523_: it sure looks a lot cleaner than C :)
17:23:16 <ais523_> MessageBoxA is incredibly simple, as the Win32 API goes
17:23:26 <ais523_> it's also incredibly uncustomisable
17:23:54 <elliott> ais523_: meh, i like my thought anyway
17:23:56 <ais523_> (it's what's responsible for Windows error messages being so bad; you can either throw up a MessageBox or write hundreds of lines of code, so you just throw up a MessageBox and hope the user can guess what OK and Cancel mean)
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17:24:43 <ais523_> the Windows asm example doesn't even go into a message loop, and most nontrivial Windows programs do
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17:26:54 <ais523_> in fact, I'm not entirely convinced it even links the libc (after all, it doesn't need to, it's calling nothing but Windows API functions)
17:27:17 <cpressey> I've seen some Windows code in asm before. By a crazy person, sadly
17:27:33 <cpressey> A whole Windows app written in asm would be more impressive.
17:27:48 <elliott> cpressey: nod32, for instance.
17:28:06 <elliott> Probably the best Windows antivirus, it also has all those fancy UI boondoggles, and it's written entirely in x86 asm.
17:28:07 <ais523_> the equivalent C89 program would be along the lines of WinMain() {MessageBoxA(0,"Hello","Hello, world!",0); ExitProcess(0);}
17:28:21 <elliott> cpressey: http://www.polzer-sw.com/files/pictures/stories/2007/nod32-30/eset-nod32-30-02.png
17:28:25 <elliott> cpressey: Assembly code backs that screen.
17:28:27 <ais523_> hmm, actually I think it's just MessageBox in C
17:28:34 <ais523_> the import libraries do name-mangling
17:29:05 <cpressey> I suppose there might be some advantage to that, although it's more likely simply that, if you're familiar with viruses, you're familiar with asm, and you code in what you're familiar with :)
17:29:25 <elliott> cpressey: There is an advantage. It has the lowest memory and CPU usage of all the even vaguely-known Windows virus scanners.
17:29:31 <elliott> cpressey: And scans the quickest.
17:29:36 <cpressey> OK, I meant besides the *obvious* advantages :)
17:29:39 <elliott> (It also has basically the best coverage, but that's a separate issue.)
17:32:37 <Vorpal> cpressey, a bit tricky to port to 64-bit windows though
17:32:45 <Vorpal> since it probably uses kernel drivers anyway
17:34:20 <elliott> cpressey: Urgh, what have you done? I have to install Plan 9 now.
17:40:39 <elliott> 11:13:14 <Gregor> Ohhey, ehird is gone?
17:40:39 <elliott> 11:13:17 <Gregor> Didn't even notice that.
17:40:39 <elliott> 11:14:54 <Gregor> That's actually a bit distressing. He's been more or less constantly present for a long time.
17:40:43 <elliott> Gregor: BET YOU REGRET SAYING THAT NOW
17:41:50 <fizzie> cpressey: There's also that one Windows screen saver package that's I think pure asm.
17:42:11 <fizzie> (Maybe that was the win3.1 days, though.)
17:43:11 <elliott> 11:33:51 <fizzie> The thing with the ".seen" command was apparently a bot nicknamed "Endeavour", and I don't remember it at all; and it's been here pretty much only in 2008-04, and twice in 2009-01.
17:43:18 <elliott> (Logreading from February? WHY NOT)
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17:49:14 <cpressey> elliott: No, you have to install NetBSD now. And write a driver for your network card!
17:49:36 <elliott> cpressey: I could try the Jibbed NetBSD LiveCD; if networking works there, I might give it a go.
17:49:49 <elliott> cpressey: But seriously, pkgsrc? Okay, I'll make a deal with you. I'll do it if I can get apt to work.
17:49:59 <elliott> (Debian/kFreeBSD packages better work on NetBSD!)
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17:53:06 <elliott> cpressey: Do you accept these terms? :P
17:58:11 <elliott> Unfortunately, the latest NetBSD removed the message line from cpressey's IRC client due to security vulnerabilities.
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17:59:25 <cpressey> < elliott> cpressey: But seriously, pkgsrc? Okay, I'll make a deal with you. I'll do it if I can get apt to work.
17:59:36 <cpressey> That would be Kitten, wouldn't it? So yeah!
17:59:43 <elliott> cpressey: Kitten use apt? Ahahahaha no.
18:00:36 <elliott> cpressey: So, how likely is it for an arbitrary FreeBSD binary to run on NetBSD?
18:01:00 <cpressey> elliott: I think it's unlikely.
18:01:11 <ais523_> hmm, I wonder what the simplest possible useful package manager is?
18:01:13 <elliott> cpressey: That... but whyyy
18:01:27 <cpressey> They're only ABI compatible with older versions of themselves on a good day. Each other?
18:01:39 <ais523_> elliott: I'm not aware of how that one works
18:01:39 <elliott> ais523_: It complains if you don't have the dependencies (I think), it has install scripts, and it installs files.
18:01:42 <elliott> ais523_: I think it can even uninstall.
18:01:49 <elliott> ais523_: It does *not* handle dependencies itself, however.
18:01:55 <elliott> ais523_: And It Never Will.
18:02:04 <cpressey> Wait, heh, k*Free*BSD you said.
18:02:06 <elliott> ais523_: it doesn't tell you if dependencies are missing
18:02:33 <elliott> cpressey: Failing that I could try building stuff from source. Or make it /kLinux and rely on the compatibility!
18:02:44 <cpressey> elliott: There are binary pkgsrc packages, I'm sure you realize this so why am I saying it? ok
18:02:47 <ais523_> hmm, even autotools does uninstall nowadays
18:03:01 <ais523_> elliott: "kLinux" doesn't really make sense, Linux /is/ a kernel
18:03:03 <elliott> ais523_: So all it is is a compressed tarball with an install/ directory containing slack-desc, which is a description, and doinst.sh, which runs commands to install it after the tarball is unpacked.
18:03:09 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
18:03:13 <elliott> ais523_: Debian's naming system for non-Linux releases is Debian/kKernel.
18:03:29 <cpressey> In my experience, the binary pkgs are good for to bootstrap your environment to a point where you can use it to build what you need from source.
18:03:37 <ais523_> yep, because FreeBSD is an operating system, kFreeBSD is the name used for its kernel
18:04:02 <elliott> cpressey: I'm going to try all this on the Jibbed LiveCD and if it doesn't work, I'm not grabbing the iso. :p
18:04:08 <ais523_> likewise, if you made a Windows-based Debian, it would be Debian/NT, because NT is the name of the Windows kernel
18:04:27 <elliott> cpressey: Oh OR I could install DragonFly.
18:04:41 <elliott> ais523_: I'm not sure whether to hate you or hate you for that mental image.
18:04:48 <cpressey> elliott: LiveCD is probably a good approach. If it doesn't work -- I'm becoming happier with NetBSD, so I won't hold you to it :)
18:05:01 <ais523_> elliott: it'd never happen for political reasons
18:05:05 <elliott> cpressey: Oh, I'll probably keep hacking on it.
18:05:10 <elliott> ais523_: It totally could though with Cygwin!
18:05:13 <ais523_> but I see no technical reason why you couldn't pull it off
18:05:23 <elliott> ais523_: What would that be, Debian/Cygwin?
18:05:37 <ais523_> Cygwin doesn't have a kernel, it's just a translation layer
18:05:41 <cpressey> Windows + Cygwin - Windows = FANTASTIC
18:05:44 <elliott> Probably Debian/Cygwin, as Cygwin relies on, e.g. newlib, not glibc.
18:05:44 <ais523_> so Debian/Cygwin/NT, presumably
18:05:52 <elliott> ais523_: Cygwin *only* runs on NT (well, now it does).
18:06:02 <elliott> ais523_: And if you used an older Cygwin, Debian/Cygwin would probably also run on 9x.
18:06:05 <ais523_> elliott: it almost runs on WINE
18:06:06 <elliott> Since it'd just be using Cygwin.
18:06:15 <elliott> ais523_: Wine is an NT implementation :)
18:06:24 <elliott> NT + Windows API implementation.
18:06:26 <cpressey> I vote for Debian/Cygwin/NT, as Cygwin is more of translation layer than anything.
18:06:26 <ais523_> that's like saying that OpenSolaris is a Linux implementation
18:06:29 <elliott> NT API, really, but you know what I mean.
18:06:39 <elliott> cpressey: right, but if you used Cygwin 1.5, it'd run on 9x too!
18:06:56 <elliott> ais523_: Cygwin can run programs that call the NT kernel API, can it not?
18:07:00 <elliott> ais523_: Wine can run programs that call the NT kernel API, can it not?
18:07:08 <cpressey> Well, but you have to decide what kernel to ship, right, otherwise you could just say */Cygwin/*
18:07:09 <ais523_> only the bits that are implemented
18:07:18 <ais523_> also, the kernel doesn't really have much of a direct API
18:07:34 <ais523_> you're supposed to do everything via {user32,system32,gdi32}.dll
18:07:41 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:07:44 <ais523_> (although not GDI nowadays as it's deprecated)
18:08:17 <elliott> cpressey: you wouldn't ship the kernel
18:08:23 <elliott> it'd just come as an installer, presumably
18:08:35 <elliott> either linked with Cygwin or to be run on a Cygwin installation
18:08:54 <cpressey> elliott: OK, so in this case, only Microsoft can do that. But normally...
18:10:02 <elliott> cpressey: well, normally you wouldn't ship anything on top of Cygwin/NT because that's fucking stupid :)
18:10:12 <elliott> Debian/Cygwin though, that would be sweet.
18:10:32 <cpressey> Hm, can you build a program that uses both the POSIX and NT kernel APIs, then run it on Cygwin?
18:10:57 <ais523_> #include <windows.h> #include <unistd.h>
18:11:10 <cpressey> I'm used to using mingw if you want to talk directly to Windows, but there is no requirement to do that.
18:11:34 <cpressey> I'm sure you can also use the APIs in a way that they interfere with each other!
18:11:54 <cpressey> I'm also pretty sure, on the basis of odds, someone has done this already!
18:12:36 <elliott> cpressey: Okay, I have Jibbed.
18:12:41 <elliott> Now to put it onto this USB stick.
18:13:17 <elliott> cpressey: how did you get netbsd running from a usb stick again? Or did you?
18:14:09 <elliott> cpressey: i... not reassuring, I have no optical drive
18:14:14 <cpressey> I managed to get my CD burner working before I got to that point.
18:14:28 <elliott> cpressey: What's the command to bring the network up, just so I know?
18:14:36 <cpressey> unetbootin is... highly magical, sadly
18:15:03 <cpressey> it should just contain some kind of ISO-knowing layer
18:15:08 <elliott> <elliott> cpressey: What's the command to bring the network up, just so I know?
18:15:49 <cpressey> Uh... I didn't need one, actually. Once I disabled ACPI, it saw my nic, I ran dhclient, all was fine.
18:16:26 <cpressey> but in theory it's like "ifconfig up rl0" or whatever
18:17:03 <ais523_> you generally don't need to bring the network up manually unless you brought it down manually
18:17:04 <cpressey> actually I set the rc.conf variable which makes it run dhclient for you then rebooted, but yes.
18:19:07 <cpressey> I would like to propose employing "or whatever" as the standard coda for all technical explanations.
18:19:37 <cpressey> "Therefore by structural induction no list is equal to its own tail or whatever"
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18:21:25 <elliott> cpressey: god this better work
18:21:40 <elliott> cpressey: it's copying /dev/foo files to a FAT-32 filesystem, not reassuring
18:23:21 <cpressey> reassuring, no. entertaining, yes.
18:24:21 <elliott> cpressey: unetbootin is doing this to jibbed
18:24:36 <cpressey> hey... I might be able to build a NetBSD "live USB stick" and ship the image of it to you somehow
18:24:42 <cpressey> I mean, this weekend, not right now
18:25:04 <cpressey> You can build these things from under NetBSD, apparently; it;s the cross-building which is guh
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18:25:18 <elliott> cpressey: "stand/usr.zfs" I like zfs.
18:25:21 <cpressey> I'm not sure how one would best extract/install the image, though
18:25:37 <elliott> cpressey: ship the image... you mean, like, uploading it to filebin.ca? :P
18:25:51 <elliott> cpressey: if you make the stick, then just dd if=stick of=foo, upload foo, and i can do the reverse obviously
18:25:57 <elliott> cpressey: although it better be under 4 gigs.
18:26:15 <elliott> cpressey: otoh, if you want to physically send a usb stick you prepared, that would be super-awesome and be sure to autograph it X-P
18:26:25 <elliott> It could be valuable one day! When you're DEAD!
18:26:59 <cpressey> I'll consider it. Meanwhile, dd+filebin.ca seems fine.
18:26:59 * elliott hides secret plans to murder cpressey and profit from the aftermath
18:27:24 <cpressey> I can bz2 up the image and upload it there
18:28:05 <cpressey> Or, THIS HAS BEEN DONE BEFORE RIGHT? because I know I'm not unique
18:28:12 <cpressey> Well, ok, I am unique in some sense
18:28:22 <cpressey> But not in the likes-to-build-things-that-boot-things sense
18:28:34 <cpressey> I just don't know how rare I am in that sense
18:28:38 <elliott> cpressey: it probably has been done but i couldn't find it
18:28:48 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, so, if you like ZFS, do you hate the GPL for making it impossible to add it to Linux?
18:29:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You already know I dislike the GPL.
18:29:17 <elliott> Of course the CDDL is fucked up too, and the fact that ZFS is now in Oracle's clutches is not good.
18:29:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I am too tired to be angry at anything.
18:29:47 <elliott> cpressey: What is it with filesystems being OS-specific?
18:30:10 <elliott> cpressey: Is it so hard to write a bunch of portable code to handle the actual FS tasks and then have small OS-specific patches of code to hook this into their filesystem layers?
18:30:14 <elliott> cpressey: I mean, come on.
18:30:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I don't mean "why are new filesystems made for new OSes?".
18:30:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I mean "why are new filesystems almost always OS-specific, even open-source ones?".
18:31:23 <elliott> cpressey: "Installing syslinux to /dev/sdb1 - 33%". Sure hope it unfreezes.
18:32:13 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:32:22 <cpressey> What is it with computers being aware of filesystems? Seems like it would be useful to have disks that just know what you mean when you say /var/foo/bar.log.
18:33:32 <cpressey> < elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I mean "why are new filesystems almost always OS-specific, even open-source ones?".
18:34:46 -!- elliott has joined.
18:34:52 <elliott> cpressey: OMG IT COMPLETELY WORKED (not)
18:35:21 <cpressey> elliott: did your internal speaker go BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP when it tried to boot from something completely not bootable from?
18:35:30 <cpressey> you gots to love it when that happens
18:35:31 <elliott> cpressey: nope, it got to the unetbootin menu
18:35:36 <elliott> but it didn't recognise the netbsd kernel
18:35:37 <ais523_> elliott: what were you trying to boot from?
18:35:43 <elliott> ais523_: a usb stick of a netbsd livecd called jibbed
18:37:08 <elliott> cpressey: so is /boot the bootloader and /netbsd the kernel?
18:38:00 <elliott> cpressey: don't suppose either of them are multiboot-enabled? :)
18:38:14 <cpressey> also, i was wrong: bsd on a usb stick => obscure, it looks like.
18:38:33 <cpressey> elliott: i don't know what that means so NO OF COURSE THEY ARE NOT MULTI_BOOT ENABLED WHAT?
18:38:49 <elliott> cpressey: i guess multiboot is too gnu eh? :)
18:38:50 <cpressey> i should find out what that means
18:39:03 <elliott> The Multiboot Specification is an open standard originally created in 1995 and developed by the Free Software Foundation. The specification describes a method of loading various multiboot kernels using a single compliant boot loader. GNU Hurd, VMware, Xen, and L4 microkernels all need to be booted using this method. GNU GRUB is the reference implementation used in the GNU operating system.
18:40:22 <cpressey> Good grief, why do people not standardize where it counts?
18:40:41 <elliott> cpressey: Multiboot is actually pretty damn nice.
18:40:44 <cpressey> I mean, it's not like booting is something where you have a strategic advantage over the competition.
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18:41:00 <cpressey> elliott: Yes, I was thinking it's a good concept at the very least
18:41:26 <elliott> cpressey: You can get a kernel booting with like 20 lines of trivial asm (you don't even need to know asm) and a C function.
18:41:29 -!- Wamanuz5 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:41:38 <elliott> cpressey: http://wiki.osdev.org/Bare_bones#loader.s
18:41:56 <elliott> cpressey: Basically you have a multiboot header, then you just set up the stack, push the stuff multiboot gives you as C arguments, and call your kernel.
18:42:32 <cpressey> Yes this seems like something silly to not have your kernel support.
18:44:50 <cpressey> So... one way to make a USB stick bootable is to give it a FAT filesystem with a bootblock.
18:45:17 <cpressey> Having NetBSD run off of a FAT filesystem... well, it might be possible. Grand hack, though, i'd think/
18:48:27 <cpressey> I guess as long as it has a bootblock, it doesn't matter what kind of filesystem it has though right?
18:48:29 <elliott> cpressey: aha, /bootxx_cd9660 works in unetbootin
18:48:36 <elliott> cpressey: but it does nothing :-D
18:49:12 <cpressey> If I can get a FFS2 FS + boot block on a USB stick, that should be enough to start.
18:49:54 <cpressey> Wait wait I found it again http://www.bsdnexus.com/NetBSD_onastick/install_guide.php
18:50:00 <elliott> cpressey: /dev/foo can be fdisk'd.
18:50:06 <elliott> cpressey: You can partition it just like a hard drive.
18:50:16 <elliott> cpressey: The *hard part* is getting the OS to read from the USB stick as /.
18:51:21 <cpressey> I know dfly (heh) had a magic "this is the partition you booted from" partition identifier, inherited from freebsd
18:51:30 <elliott> cpressey: Oh, I've seen that guide.
18:51:46 <elliott> cpressey: Problem is, do those generated CDs have the installer on?
18:52:05 <elliott> cpressey: Really Jibbed would be the nicest as I can check that X works and everything before committing...
18:52:17 <cpressey> I don't know. The installer is just another program though, basically, so it can't be too hard, though you might have to start it manually.
18:52:52 <cpressey> elliott: Lack of optical drive sucks.
18:53:02 <elliott> cpressey: Hey, don't knock it. This laptop is awesome.
18:53:13 <elliott> cpressey: Battery lasts ages, ridiculously lightweight, nice screen...
18:54:58 <quintopia> optical drive = useless paperweight most of the time. external is better.
18:55:17 <elliott> Toshiba T150 or something.
18:55:34 <cpressey> config netbsd root on sd0a type ffs <-- THAT is how it knows your stick is / :)
18:56:02 <elliott> TrackPoints are usually rubbish.
18:56:05 <elliott> Only the IBM ones are any good.
18:56:16 <quintopia> well, those are the ones i have experience with
18:56:31 <elliott> Lenovo makes terrible laptops.
18:56:37 <elliott> model name: Genuine Intel(R) CPU U4100 @ 1.30GHz
18:56:59 <quintopia> my bad for not keeping up to the date
18:57:06 <quintopia> last one i tried was when ibm=lenovo
18:57:18 <elliott> Lenovo bought the ThinkPad brand from IBM.
18:57:33 <elliott> They then proceeded to make laptops far worse than their IBM predecessors.
18:57:37 <quintopia> i used one that was branded with both i thought
18:57:45 <elliott> quintopia: Yes, IBM let them put the IBM logo on their laptops.
18:57:50 <elliott> Because they don't care about their reputation.
18:58:02 <elliott> (Lenovos are still a lot better than a lot of the crap out there, but I'd take an older IBM ThinkPad any day.)
18:58:12 <elliott> (I don't think they've changed the TrackPoints though.)
18:58:26 <elliott> quintopia: Well, uh, the T60 didn't suck.
18:58:34 <quintopia> aha, i think that's the one i used
18:58:51 <elliott> quintopia: ...apart from the widescreen version.
18:58:55 <elliott> Which sucked by virtue of being widescreen.
18:59:22 <elliott> Oh yeah, they made a tablet out of it.
18:59:41 <fizzie> They're all made (for some values of "made") by Quanta anyways. ("Quanta Computer Incorporated -- largest manufacturer of notebook computers in the world -- customers include Acer, Alienware, Apple Inc., Cisco, Compaq, Dell, Fujitsu, Gateway, Gericom, Hewlett-Packard, Lenovo, Maxdata, MPC, Sharp Corporation, Siemens AG, Sony, Sun Microsystems, and Toshiba --")
19:00:07 <quintopia> Asus is conspicuously missing from that list
19:00:22 <quintopia> I remember back when Asus made good laptops/netbooks too
19:00:33 <elliott> I've used an Eee PC. I hate its guts.
19:00:57 <elliott> A computer with an unusable keyboard and a tiny screen is far inferior to a computer without a keyboard and with a larger screen (i.e., a tablet of some kind).
19:01:37 <quintopia> i got used to the keyboard, and the screen is big enough if you configure things properly to save screen real estate
19:02:10 <elliott> Gee, that's so worth the less than a kilogram difference from this, my only and main computer.
19:02:17 <quintopia> the trade-off for lightweight/tiny size/superlong battery is totally worth it
19:02:35 <elliott> I have used the Eee PC. Its battery is not superlong. Mine is competitive with it.
19:02:49 <elliott> It is also about as lightweight; the weight is distributed across a larger size, so it feels only slightly heavier.
19:02:59 <elliott> And I'll take the 13" screen and full-sized keyboard, thanks.
19:03:13 <elliott> I can actually get shit done on it, rather than just visit stupid webpages and use a horizontal scrollbar every two seconds.
19:03:23 <elliott> It might not be ZOMG KAWAII but it's an actually useful computer.
19:03:24 <fizzie> Asus might manufacture their own; they're a Taiwanese firm too, like Quanta. (And of course it's not so clear-cut like that: HP for example has their notebooks built -- well, in 2004-2005, anyway -- by Foxconn, Compal, Inventec, Arima, Quanta and Wistron.)
19:03:50 <fizzie> I like the name "eee".
19:04:38 <fizzie> "Eeee, you have a PC?!"
19:04:50 <quintopia> my eee is my main computer now also. i'm using it right now with an external monitor, keyboard, and mouse (desktop mode for me). it's productive in this mode as any computer. in netbook mode, portability is the prime and only concern, and it has that too.
19:05:07 <elliott> I have no comment but hahahaha
19:05:48 <quintopia> i eventually hope to get my desktop working again as a main computer for the added speed and memory and stuff, but for now i have to do it this way
19:06:44 <fizzie> A friend has what I think is an Aspire One, and the SSD is pretty horribly slow; the whole machine goes all io-wait-unusable (might be partly a driver/config/whatever problem too) whenever something disk-intensive is happening.
19:09:13 <fizzie> ata2.00: ATA-0: ELITE PRO CF CARD 16GB, Ver2.19K, max UDMA/100 <-- that is also not an especially fast "disk" that I have here.
19:09:50 <fizzie> Also called the poor man's SSD.
19:09:58 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, that is a common problem with SSDs, related not to disk throughput but random access and shit.
19:10:18 <quintopia> i use my 32g SD as a "hard drive extension" for non-executable files and stuff i want to be readily available should my computer fail.
19:11:30 <quintopia> i don't use it for everyday stuff tho cuz it has a bad habit of becoming read-only without any provocation
19:11:38 <quintopia> any help with that issue would be appreciated...
19:13:10 <fizzie> Same thing as https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/438379 ?
19:15:01 <quintopia> and also it happens without ever suspending
19:17:29 <elliott> seems my machine is actually a T130
19:17:54 -!- cheater99 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:17:57 <elliott> "Toshiba is now recalling thousands of T130 series laptops owing to overheating concerns, the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission announced Thursday"
19:20:05 <Vorpal> elliott, didn't ais523_ one melt or something?
19:20:17 <elliott> Uhh, he has one. No idea about it melting :P
19:20:30 <ais523_> Vorpal: it was the power supply that caught fire due to a short circuit
19:20:46 <Vorpal> ais523_, you said it smelled molten plastic iirc?
19:20:55 <elliott> apparently my UUID is 601BF387-1BAE-DE11-AD86-00269E431DF4
19:20:58 <ais523_> Vorpal: well, it was an insulated wire that shorted...
19:22:22 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ qemu-system-x86_64 -m 512 -fda /home/elliott/keep/2010-10/M64-095C/M64-095C.IMG
19:23:02 <elliott> Sure is slow in qemu though.
19:23:10 <elliott> The 32-bit one might go faster.
19:25:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:32:54 <elliott> cpressey: menuetos, it's this os programmed entirely in x86 and x86-64 assembly
19:32:58 <elliott> both 32-bit and 64-bit versions
19:33:02 <elliott> cpressey: it even has a web browser
19:33:24 <elliott> window transparency and preview (like this: http://www.menuetos.net/086c.png)
19:33:52 <elliott> DVD/MP3/Digital TV player (!) costs because of liecnsing concerns but still
19:34:07 <elliott> cpressey: also, has FASM port
19:34:56 <elliott> wait how did Vorpal's ignore disappear?
19:35:34 <elliott> too much work to add it back in
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19:37:18 <elliott> wtf, that one is broken too?
19:37:21 <elliott> or maybe xchat doesn't ignore /joins
19:38:00 <quintopia> xchat does have some major lameness about it i hear
19:38:10 <quintopia> i cannot say for certain as i have not tried it
19:38:54 <quintopia> cpressey: objective comparison to irssi possible?
19:38:58 <fizzie> I ran it for 15 minutes before it segfaulted.
19:39:22 <cpressey> quintopia: objective? not by me, certainly
19:39:46 <fizzie> It looked not too different from irssi, actually. Architecture-wise maybe more modularistic, maybe not.
19:40:01 <quintopia> the only thing i have heard about it was extremely biased towards it
19:40:23 <quintopia> say it was saner, mroe easily configured, and better laid out than irssi
19:40:29 <fizzie> UI-wise there's some vertical window-splitting action in the curses UI if you want user/channel lists.
19:40:34 <quintopia> and also somethign about python being better than perl
19:41:34 <fizzie> /set there says "344 configuration options found"; and it doesn't really look at least much simpler.
19:42:04 <fizzie> Oh, and some /help texts were pretty incomplete.
19:42:52 <cpressey> quintopia: it worked for me. irssi works for me. i do not have strong feelings about irc clients.
19:43:18 <quintopia> then i'll just assume "they're about the same" and go on with my life
19:43:50 <elliott> http://sites.google.com/site/shaunsite/matrix-wmii.png what i hate about arch users, #17
19:44:01 <elliott> MONOSPACED GREEN ON BLACK MEANS IT'S EXPERT
19:44:08 <elliott> ESPECIALLY IF THE FONTS ARE TINY
19:44:14 <fizzie> Oh, it has that funky "show a line below of which are all the new messages in this window since you last looked at it" thing. (I'm sure someone's scripted that in irssi too, though.)
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19:44:29 <quintopia> fizzie: i'm using said script in fact
19:44:43 <elliott> fizzie: xchat does that but i disabled it, it's irritating
19:45:04 <cpressey> elliott: have that screen, in a non-contrived, day-to-day setup
19:45:25 <fizzie> elliott: I've thought it useful every now and then, but for some reason the xchat implementation seems to behave inconstantly every now and then.
19:45:32 <elliott> cpressey: the matrix too, i mean come on
19:45:35 <fizzie> Every now and then, every now and then.
19:45:48 <quintopia> elliott: that little line that connects commands to the next line to set off the commands from their output is a nice deal though. i'd like to have that in my term...
19:46:21 <quintopia> (searching back through output for the place where the output began is annoying, especially when you weren't expecting so much output)
19:46:38 <elliott> cpressey: i should TOTALLY WRITE MY OWN WM
19:46:56 <cpressey> quintopia: i blast out a color bar above my prompt to help with that
19:47:27 <elliott> cpressey: but it would be a good wm.
19:47:49 <fizzie> elliott: Why not just use fvwm95? It looks just like Windows 95, you'd feel like at home!
19:48:42 <quintopia> also, if weechat has nicks aligned by default, i dun want. i don't get thinking that's useful.
19:48:49 <fizzie> My First Linux(tm), the (broken) Slackware 3.2 that came with a local PC magazine, had fvwm95 in it.
19:49:35 <fizzie> The nicks are right-justified by default, yes.
19:49:42 <elliott> My first Linux was, uh, PCLinuxOS.
19:49:48 <elliott> It didn't support my winmodem so I gave up on it.
19:50:08 <cpressey> quintopia: I set PS1 to spit out VT100 background-colour-changing codes and print out a bunch of hyphens before the rest of the prompt.
19:50:08 <fizzie> Actually, given the nick alignment and the user list and the "new messages" line, it sort-of looks like midway between xchat and irssi.
19:51:50 <elliott> cpressey: what you need is a terminal that you can set to hold the scrolling :)
19:51:51 <cpressey> also, i use high energy verbs like "blast" and "spit" to describe the process, to make it sound really exciting!
19:52:13 <cpressey> elliott: when the output is typically many pages, i don't see how that would help
19:52:13 <fizzie> cpressey: It annihilates the background color and fuses some hyphens in.
19:52:29 <elliott> cpressey: disable scrolling with a keypress, send the command off
19:52:34 <elliott> read through it starting at the prompt
19:52:44 <elliott> suddenly PAGER=cat becomes worthwhile
19:52:47 <Vorpal> <elliott> wait how did Vorpal's ignore disappear? <-- I never ignored you?
19:52:55 <elliott> Vorpal: i ignored you though
19:53:18 <Vorpal> elliott, I just like to point out that going via ^ul was completely un-needed ;P
19:53:32 <elliott> Vorpal: i went by ^echo after that!
19:53:49 <elliott> cpressey: ok then, use a non-backwards terminal that actually has an understanding of this stuff and lets you do things like collapse command output
19:53:56 <elliott> note: no such terminals exist yet due to stupidity
19:54:24 <Vorpal> elliott, also not needed ;P
19:54:25 <elliott> cpressey: but i so want to write one, how surprising is that?!
19:58:34 <fizzie> What I'd like in xchat is "move to next channel with unread stuff" key, but I don't suppose it has one.
20:00:02 <Vorpal> <elliott> cpressey: what you need is a terminal that you can set to hold the scrolling :) <-- scrolllock?
20:00:15 <elliott> i was thinking rio's text windows.
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20:00:37 <elliott> which can get annoying but which is really nice for man(1) and the like
20:01:10 <Vorpal> elliott, annoying for normal interactive usage indeed
20:01:21 <elliott> less so with the usual plan 9 model of things though :)
20:02:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:02:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It hates your guts.
20:02:55 <Phantom_Hoover> It hangs irreparably whenever I ask it to do anything more intensive than render a cube.
20:03:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it is starting to feel a urge to pine for the fjords
20:03:16 <cpressey> < elliott> cpressey: ok then, use a non-backwards terminal that actually has an understanding of this stuff and lets you do things like collapse command output
20:03:23 <cpressey> for some value of this statement, emacs probably can do this\
20:03:31 <cpressey> \\\\\\ hi i like backslashes \\\\\
20:03:36 <Phantom_Hoover> And, most annnoyingly, it only started doing this when I upgraded to either Karmic or Lucid.
20:03:38 <elliott> cpressey: for some value of any statement emacs can probably do it
20:04:14 <cpressey> emacs can do anything lisp hooked up to a pty can do
20:04:18 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, some crappy Intel Advanced Core Blatant Lies onboard thing.
20:04:22 <elliott> cpressey: are you crazy enough to give me an ssh account on your machine so I can see if apt will work on NetBSD?
20:04:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: also, can I have a million pounds?
20:04:41 <elliott> fizzie: while I'm at it, i require your unborn child
20:04:42 <fizzie> A million pounds of flax.
20:04:45 <cpressey> elliott: I am much, much too crazy to do that.
20:04:50 <elliott> and you, ais523_, I require your brain.
20:05:17 <elliott> Anyone else use NetBSD?!?!!?!?!?!!!?
20:05:32 <elliott> cpressey: NETBSD DOESN'T EVEN WORK IN QEMU DUDE ;_;
20:05:41 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Are you using the GPU-driven desktop magical motion effects?
20:06:01 <ais523_> elliott: but I need it too...
20:06:11 <elliott> ais523_: Not as much as I do!
20:06:33 <cpressey> elliott: http://www.netbsd.org/ports/emulators.html#setup
20:06:42 <Phantom_Hoover> It can run FGFS tolerably, but above that and it's screwed.
20:06:45 <elliott> cpressey: network doesn't work
20:06:51 <elliott> cpressey: and *yes* i tried
20:07:04 <elliott> love how bochs is their first suggested emulator
20:07:21 <Phantom_Hoover> And it screws my X server with it, so I have to reboot.
20:07:31 <cpressey> wonder why they do not test the amiga port on uae
20:07:34 <elliott> cpressey: what if i paid you a bajillion dollars and you did it in the chroot
20:07:57 <cpressey> elliott: look, if you're so desperate, i can try, for kicks, this weekend, but uh, why do you think it would work?
20:08:11 * coppro might make a clang-compiled FreeBSD VM
20:08:38 <cpressey> also, due to my Internets coming from the phone company, it is probably not possible to ssh into my machine by mortal means
20:08:57 <coppro> cpressey: do you have an IP?
20:09:06 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
20:09:12 <cpressey> coppro: Yes. It starts with 192.168.
20:09:32 <coppro> cpressey: your /ISP/ actually gives you one of those?
20:09:34 <elliott> cpressey: do you have a router?
20:09:40 <coppro> or do you just have a router?
20:09:48 <elliott> coppro: cpressey was obviously joking
20:10:03 <elliott> cpressey: even the shittiest routers have port forwarding configs and from there it's just putting in the ssh port
20:10:25 <elliott> cpressey: anyway, i think it would work because even if kFreeBSD packages don't work, the Linux ones might
20:10:26 <fizzie> Hey, back in dialup days giving private-range IPs to clients wasn't especially special.
20:10:34 <elliott> cpressey: and failing that, apt can do things from source, too :)
20:10:47 <elliott> wow, fritzthecat was in here yesterday, and now Fritz the Cat is wikipedia featured article
20:11:20 <fizzie> At least our SLIP link wasn't very public-internets-connected back then. The later PPP connections probably were.
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20:12:54 <fizzie> Now I can't get this weeweechat to crash again, how annoying. I may actually have to give it the old college try. (What does that even mean?)
20:12:54 <cpressey> I do not, in fact, have a router; just a DSL modem.
20:14:01 <cpressey> elliott: I don't know what linux compat is like on net; on free it was OK, but iffy. building from source is, of course, more manly.
20:14:24 <fizzie> If it's an external, ethernet-connected DSL modem, it might essentially be a router with one LAN port and one WAN port; that's what my zyxel box is.
20:15:04 <fizzie> It does bridge mode, but it also does "I take your internet-visible IP and provide DHCP nonsense to your computer" thing, and probably forwards ports too.
20:16:02 <elliott> cpressey: Try http://192.168.1.1/.
20:16:05 <elliott> You might just get something.
20:16:08 <fizzie> In other news, where have all the PCI ADSL cards gone? I haven't seen anyone using one of those in (probably) years.
20:18:27 <cpressey> elliott: iirc I get my cable modem's configuration page. I've had to go in there to reset the password several times, with the phone company's help, because it keeps "forgetting" it.
20:18:47 <elliott> cpressey: It may well have port forwarding.
20:19:07 <elliott> cpressey: Oh hell, you know what? Got any ports open? I'll see if I can get them.
20:19:35 <cpressey> thanks but no I'm pretty sure I don't.
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20:20:43 <elliott> cpressey is TOO TUNED-IN to my attempts to root his box
20:21:58 <fizzie> And ISDN! Where did that go? In Germany you could -- for a small amount of time -- get a 16 kbps Internet connection with no phone charges, because only the use of the 64 kbps data ("B") channels was charged, and you could keep the 16kbps signaling channel ("D") open and send data over that.
20:22:51 <fizzie> All ISDN4Linux documentation was also only in German; that's one ISDNy country.
20:27:02 <elliott> fizzie: CONVINCE ME NOT TO WRITE MY OWN BOOTLOADER
20:27:29 <fizzie> Okay: you shouldn't write a bootloader, because you'd end up with an AWESOME one, and no-one wants that.
20:27:38 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: the above may not be true.)
20:27:46 <fizzie> (Any parts of it, in fact.)
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20:30:01 <elliott> fizzie: OKAY I TOTALLY WILL
20:30:05 <elliott> WHAT ASSEMBLER SHOULD I USE TO ADD TO THE AWESOME
20:31:00 <fizzie> Or HLA, it's fr-fr-freaky.
20:31:39 <elliott> fizzie: Shouldn't that be f-f-freaky?
20:33:26 <elliott> cpressey: It's... 386ASM or something, zzo's.
20:34:00 <elliott> fizzie: HLA is indeed freaky though.
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20:34:38 <elliott> stdout.put( "Hello World" nl );
20:34:41 <elliott> fizzie: Can you FEEL the assembly?
20:35:53 <elliott> fizzie: Grep /(rather lengthy)/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Level_Assembly#Macro_system
20:36:00 <elliott> fizzie: It's so beautiful.
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20:39:27 <elliott> cpressey: Could that actually work?
20:41:33 <cpressey> elliott: It could. Doing it in any way that wasn't just inline assembly (in DECIMAL) would incur overhead though
20:41:48 <elliott> cpressey: http://catseye.tc/projects/shelta/lib/8086/gupi.she?
20:42:08 <cpressey> I think GUPI uses the dos interrupts, so not that, but otherwise yes
20:42:08 <elliott> cpressey: I do want this to fit into the boot sector though.
20:43:04 <cpressey> I mean, the Shelta compiler fits in the boot sector :) The one written in x86, that is. The one written in Shelta does not. It's like 2 or 4K.
20:43:28 <elliott> cpressey: I was basically planning to use the BIOS to read the kernel into RAM and then jmp there.
20:43:32 <elliott> Surely that can't be so hard? :)
20:43:37 <elliott> I'm not interested in booting other OSes, really.
20:43:49 <elliott> Oh, I wouldn't mind printing "Booting..." or something either.
20:44:00 <elliott> cpressey: Doesn't the FreeBSD bootloader fit into the boot sector?
20:44:04 <cpressey> And yeah I think Shelta might only talk BIOS interrupts; I don't remember
20:44:39 <elliott> cpressey: Hmm, can I rely on the BIOS to be able to read from floppies/CDs/HDs with the same interrupt?
20:44:45 <fizzie> Remember to print "Booting..." with each character interspersed with different actions, so that your users get to diagones problems based on whether it printed "Bo" or "Boo".
20:44:46 <cpressey> elliott: the terminology always confuses me... boot0 fits into the MBR. But all boot0 does is call the boot sector of the selected disk/part
20:44:58 <elliott> Like, if the bootloader is on a given medium, it pretends that medium's a hard disk.
20:45:06 <cpressey> elliott: depends on your hardware. but you hope for that, i believe.
20:45:25 <elliott> I guess it'd do it for USB drives, too.
20:45:35 <elliott> All I have to do now is learn Shelta and BIOS interrupts. :P
20:45:40 <elliott> cpressey: There is a dos.she. :-P
20:45:44 <elliott> I could write a DOS-based bootloader.
20:45:53 <elliott> Official bootloader: FreeDOS with BOOTOS in the autoexec.
20:46:03 <cpressey> Hm, the shelta compiler might make some "I'm writing a .COM file" assumptions, now that I think about it
20:46:10 <Phantom_Hoover> I am so happy I gave up on amateur OS design right now.
20:46:24 <elliott> cpressey: Well, uh, .COM files are pretty plain :P
20:46:33 <elliott> cpressey: All I'd have to do is strip the zeroes off the end.
20:46:45 <elliott> cpressey: Oh, and insert $55 $AA at the end.
20:46:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Or fasm! But yes, probably.
20:46:55 <cpressey> elliott: If the bootblock expects to be at 0x0100 then there should be no problem, agreed.
20:46:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: For the bootloader, though, Shelta! If I can get away with it.
20:47:14 <elliott> cpressey: The boot sector is loaded to 0x7C00. So yeah.
20:47:35 <cpressey> Yeah I don't know if Shelta can do that.
20:48:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, sort of. It also runs on Linux. And it's lower-level than NASM.
20:48:31 <elliott> Hey, MenuetOS is written in it. :P
20:48:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That is plain wrong.
20:49:10 <elliott> nasm has plenty of mnemonics that translate to various different instructions.
20:49:16 <elliott> (Do you have any idea how many instructions "mov" actually is?)
20:49:20 <elliott> fizzie: Unreal mode is what I wanted for my DOS!
20:49:44 <elliott> I'm totally going to write my OS in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_Management_Mode
20:50:39 <Gregor> `echo How slow am I today?
20:50:45 <elliott> "FASM is a low-level assembler. It does not support as many high-level statements as MASM or TASM." Straight from the mouth of Wikipedia!
20:51:05 <fizzie> MASM and TASM are very high-level, though.
20:51:39 <cpressey> elliott: Printable boot block!
20:51:43 <fizzie> All kinds of calling convention / function-epilogue/prologue things they do, unless I misremember. Optionally, of course.
20:52:04 <storkbot> cpressey: Unknown command. Type '|help' for help.
20:52:06 <elliott> !c printf("%c%c\n",0x55,0xAA);
20:52:16 <Phantom_Hoover> But one of NASM's design goals was to make it possible to work out what the opcode for a given line was easily.
20:52:24 * Gregor begins to be concerned ...
20:52:56 <cpressey> Of course, my machine isn't doing anything but, uh, running storkbot right now, so such amazing speed is no sign.
20:52:58 <elliott> cpressey: OK, 0x55 is "U", but 0xAA is unprintable.
20:53:09 <fizzie> ^echo I'm not slow at all.
20:53:09 <fungot> I'm not slow at all. I'm not slow at all.
20:54:21 <fizzie> "You not", not too bad.
20:54:26 <elliott> cpressey: So, not quite possible in the strictest sense, but maybe close...
20:54:39 <elliott> Use ais523's auto-uudecoding thing, replace print with jmp.
20:54:45 <elliott> Write teeny tiny bootloader.
20:54:46 <Gregor> # dd if=/dev/zero of=test.big bs=1M count=10 conv=fdatasync
20:54:46 <Gregor> 10485760 bytes (10 MB) copied, 53.2281 s, 197 kB/s
20:56:15 <fizzie> elliott: Technically speaking if this is the MBR you're talking about, with the 0x55 0xaa signature, it also should have the table of primary partitions, and one byte there (the bootable flag) can only legally be either 0x00 or 0x80. But of course that's only if you actually care.
20:56:16 <cpressey> elliott: The bootloader lives in the first block of the particular partition, correct?
20:56:55 <fizzie> Right before the signature.
20:56:56 <cpressey> Yeah, isn't it the MBR that needs the 0x55 0xaa? Does each part's bootblock need that too?
20:57:06 <fizzie> So there's only 446 bytes for the code.
20:57:10 <elliott> Hmm, can USB drives have as big a bootloader as they want?
20:57:16 <cpressey> fizzie: I remember that bit, yeah.
20:57:22 <elliott> Just by... having shit at the start? No?
20:57:44 <cpressey> BIOS probably pretends they're a floppy, to start
20:58:10 <elliott> Okay then, floppy bootsectors.
20:58:19 <elliott> Let's pretend I don't care about disks right now. :P
20:58:41 <fizzie> CD boot-up is completely freaky too: you can put disk images and it does some kind of magical floppy emulation, but it's also possible to boot without.
20:59:25 <cpressey> Um, I think floppy bootsectors are just like HD bootsectors. I could be wrong.
20:59:50 <cpressey> Best bet: download one and examine it with a hex editor.
21:00:38 <elliott> cpressey: Right, but I don't need to care about the partition table, yeah?
21:00:55 <cpressey> Some info in tables here: http://www.nu2.nu/mkbt/
21:02:04 <fizzie> You don't need to care about the partition table anyway if you just put your boot loader to the start of a partition and rely on the "default" MBR code to chainload the first active partition; but that might not be quite what you want.
21:02:17 <cpressey> ISTR MBR and bootsector are very similar (MBR evolved from the floppy format, just adding the partition table.)
21:03:26 <elliott> cpressey: Should I write it in... SP\ASM?!
21:03:28 <cpressey> I am so going to fuck up my machine this weekend playing with this shit. Note to self: install bochs and do it there instead
21:03:44 <fizzie> The special things (parameter blocks and such) in that floppy boot sector table are FAT-specific and could in theory be ignored. (That's why there's the three bytes for jump at the start.)
21:04:03 <elliott> cpressey: Also, YOU CAN'T MESS IT UP I NEED TO GET APT WORKING
21:04:57 <elliott> bochs is more useful for osdev but hell to configure
21:06:24 <elliott> $ python -c "print ''.join(chr(x) for x in xrange(256))" | ndisasm -
21:06:35 <elliott> except for lock up the system
21:06:40 <benuphoenix> I had to ask my java professor a question via email. Was I wrong to also ask which compiler he used, so that I wouldn't hand in something that wouldn't compile on his end?
21:06:48 <fizzie> cpressey: Did you see how well qemu-system-sparc booted the latest OpenBSD for me? http://zem.fi/~fis/sparc-3.png (As sparc-4.png shows, OpenBSD 3.5, which I have in my basement sparc, worked a whole lot better.)
21:08:44 <elliott> fizzie: Maybe I WILL write it in HLA.
21:09:07 <elliott> cpressey: I'm not seeing any COM-specificity in sheltas.she.
21:13:58 <cpressey> elliott: It's possible there's not. How do you set the ORG then though?
21:15:05 <cpressey> Otherwise how do the jump instructions know where the first instruction is? I don't think I was so clever as to use indirect addressing allwhere
21:15:34 <elliott> cpressey: it has to be mentioned that i can't read sheltas.she :)
21:15:37 <cpressey> I really think it assumes the first instruction is at 0x0100
21:15:53 <cpressey> elliott: try reading the nasm version
21:17:19 <elliott> cpressey: gotta say, nasm or something is looking appealing :)
21:17:39 <cpressey> "Ask any long-time assembly programmer about HLA and they'll probably tell you that it's a terrible assembler."
21:17:52 <cpressey> I haven't read the rest of the article yet
21:18:26 <elliott> cpressey: well, the only instance of 100 in shelta86.s is in the first org statement, fwiw :P
21:18:40 <fizzie> cpressey: Don't skip over the "You should be aware that, as an author of one of the assemblers I am discussing here (HLA), there is no way that this discussion is going to be unbiased" part.
21:18:53 <fizzie> (Still, it's reasonably fair.)
21:19:12 <fizzie> (This was, in fact, the x86 assembler comparison article I was referring to few days ago.)
21:19:27 <cpressey> fizzie: so here i am randomly googling for the phrase "terrible assembler" and yeah
21:20:19 <cpressey> Now, I don't know if I am accurately recalling what Terse is, but if I am, BOY HOWDY.
21:20:57 <elliott> cpressey: http://www.terse.com/howdoes.htm
21:21:02 <elliott> eax - 10 ? =={ eax = 1; },{ eax = 0; };
21:21:25 <cpressey> '+' is now an imperative action
21:21:54 <Vorpal> <fizzie> cpressey: Did you see how well qemu-system-sparc booted the latest OpenBSD for me? http://zem.fi/~fis/sparc-3.png (As sparc-4.png shows, OpenBSD 3.5, which I have in my basement sparc, worked a whole lot better.) <-- both look strange?
21:22:39 <cpressey> fizzie: oh, i missed when you said that
21:23:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: They start to look just fine as soon as the lower-level boot messages have scrolled away, leaving just the black-on-white actual framebuffer console in place. (Well, except that sparc-3.png isn't going anywhere.)
21:23:22 <elliott> "Look for the terse Optomized Performance (TOP) logo (pictured below) on the software products you buy."
21:23:25 <elliott> http://www.terse.com/pics/topyello.gif
21:23:25 <cpressey> fizzie: is that good or bad? i assume bad.
21:23:47 <Vorpal> elliott, is it a joke?
21:24:13 <cpressey> Vorpal: the price is very reasonable for such an advanced piece of technology!
21:24:23 <fizzie> cpressey: I would think "ttttttttttttttt tcx0: ... using wskbd0data fault: pc=0xfdd" is quite a giveaway.
21:24:26 <Vorpal> "The word OPTOMIZED, the name TERSE, and the TERSE logo are Trademarks of Jim Neil. "
21:24:34 <elliott> [[op-to-mize vt [Gk optos + ISV -mize] : to make as aesthetically perfect, effective, or functional to the eye as possible.]]
21:24:39 <elliott> it appears to be... a neologism?
21:25:39 <cpressey> fizzie: I can never tell with OpenBSD!
21:25:45 <cpressey> everything looks like an error anyway
21:25:56 <elliott> "A complaint I've heard once or twice is that HLA does not support segments, 16-bit addressing modes, and you can't write DOS programs with it. These are valid complaints. If you need to do all of these things, HLA is not the language for you. HLA was designed exclusively for use with flat-model 32-bit operating systems. I make no apologies for that design decision."
21:26:04 <Vorpal> `addquote <cpressey> fizzie: I can never tell with OpenBSD! <cpressey> everything looks like an error anyway
21:26:17 <Vorpal> HackEgo, were art thou?
21:26:18 <HackEgo> 251|<cpressey> fizzie: I can never tell with OpenBSD! <cpressey> everything looks like an error anyway
21:26:25 <elliott> <Vorpal> HackEgo, were art thou?
21:26:33 <Vorpal> elliott, intentionally so
21:26:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Things that are more awesome than they have any right to be: Stonehenge.
21:26:48 <Vorpal> elliott, it was a reference to a shoddy translation
21:26:52 <Vorpal> elliott, in an old game
21:27:05 <Vorpal> for mac iirc. I think it was translated from italian
21:27:10 <Vorpal> forgot the name for it
21:27:14 <Vorpal> was like, for system 7
21:27:32 <fizzie> cpressey: Okay, the "installer" does look pretty inscrutable, I grant you that. And the boot messages in general tend to involve lots of hex numbers. But still!
21:30:42 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: "Certaine mighty and unwrought stones,..upon the heads of which, others like ouerthwart peeces do beare and rest crossewise,..so as the whole frame seemeth to hang: whereof we call it Stonehenge."
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21:32:50 <elliott> fizzie: *"Stonehenge! Where the demons dwell / Where the banshees live and they do live well / Stonehenge! Where a man's a man / And the children dance to the pipes of Pan"
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21:34:00 <elliott> cpressey: You should totally make SHELTA: The Freestanding Edition.
21:34:31 <cpressey> elliott: I have considered a "Shelta 2"-like project, but it would be... very different.
21:34:36 <fizzie> elliott: "Ac arst was þe king ybured..Wiþinne þe place of stonheng."
21:35:05 <cpressey> fizzie: I tried installing it once. It was fun.
21:35:35 <cpressey> For any BSD, you want to have paper and pen handy; for OpenBSD, have a calculator too.
21:35:47 <Vorpal> cpressey, what is/was shelta?
21:36:29 <cpressey> Vorpal: a sort of Forth-ish language which I designed to be bootstrapped. Then I bootstrapped it.
21:37:17 <Vorpal> augh can't type easily, the hiccugh
21:39:51 <fizzie> cpressey: Yeah, installing it on an SPARCstation 5, which had only SCSI disks -- and I didn't have any other SCSI-capable hardware to pre-stick anything on the disks -- and no removable storage devices was also quite an adventure. (The only supported way for netbooting is to run a reverse-ARP server in the network; it will broadcast a rarp query, take the first address it gets, and then try to fetch with TFTP from the rarp server's address the file "xxxxxxxx.SU
21:39:52 <fizzie> N4C", where xxx is the assigned IP address in hex.)
21:40:17 <fizzie> (It's pretty awkward if you'd want to, say, have the TFTP server and the rarpd on different machines.)
21:41:21 <fizzie> (And in any case... reverse-ARP? It's not even BOOTP.)
21:41:40 <cpressey> reverse something that's for sure
21:41:52 <fizzie> "RARP is described in Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) publication RFC 903.[1] It has been rendered obsolete by the Bootstrap Protocol (BOOTP) and the modern Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol (DHCP), which both support a much greater feature set than RARP."
21:41:52 <cpressey> possible the polarity of the neutron flow
21:42:10 <fizzie> For example, the feature to, you know, tell the box where to get the boot image from.
21:47:48 <elliott> cpressey: i'll write it in GAS!
21:48:07 <fizzie> Oh, and the OpenBSD kernel needs a bootp server to get an IP and find the root filesystem; so you need to run rarpd + tftpd for OpenBoot to get IP and the kernel, then the kernel will just ignore those -- it doesn't know how to read them -- and ask with BOOTP for another IP and a (NFS) location to use as the root.
21:48:45 <fizzie> It will also do swap-over-NFS, unless I misremember.
21:49:37 <elliott> fizzie: swap-over-NFS. Lovely.
21:50:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, I'm utterly stunned by your description of the netbooting
21:50:22 <elliott> Q: Is the sourcecode available ?
21:50:22 <elliott> A: Yes, full fasm sourcecode is available to members of the DexOS Dev team.
21:50:22 <elliott> Q: Why is it, only available to DexOS Dev team ?
21:50:22 <elliott> A: If you do not want to Dev for DexOS, why do you need the code.
21:50:35 <fizzie> Vorpal: Isn't it elegant?!
21:51:27 <fizzie> I think if you boot real sunos with it, it will (at least) use the IP (and server address) it got at the boot stage with rarp, and not require the BOOTP parts.
21:51:32 <elliott> hmm, is there any great difficulty in booting another OS from DOS?
21:51:47 <elliott> you can just load your OS wherever it needs to be and jmp there, right? what about the interrupts?
21:52:10 <fizzie> Well, loadlin does it; it's easier to escape from DOS than a real OS, at the very least.
21:52:38 <cpressey> elliott: I was going to suggest gas earlier but I didn't feel like getting stabbed
21:52:58 <elliott> hmm do you just override the interrupts table like a normal boot?
21:53:19 <cpressey> elliott: no shame in using nasm. just so you know.
21:53:31 <elliott> cpressey: yasm made sense when nasm had a terrible license :P
21:54:21 <cpressey> swap-over-NFS sounds like the most insane thing ever
21:55:17 <cpressey> < elliott> A: If you do not want to Dev for DexOS, why do you need the code.
21:55:22 <fizzie> cpressey: It might be that the installer can enable a local swap partition pretty early in the process, hopefully before you end up needing much swap space.
21:55:33 <cpressey> Because you can't be trusted with it because you think Dev is a verb?
21:56:26 <cpressey> elliott: oh. not the sense i meant but that can work too
21:56:34 <elliott> cpressey: what did you mean then?
21:57:10 <cpressey> Whoever 'A' is I need to keep them the hell away from the code, so they should give me, like, the only copy.
21:57:49 <elliott> But I guess you knew that.
21:58:33 <cpressey> Whoever is playing the role of 'A' in this little production in this little insane INSANE theatre of the mind...
21:59:21 <Vorpal> cpressey, godot played that role (he finally arrived)
22:00:38 <cpressey> and now he's in deadlock waiting for himself
22:02:06 <elliott> cpressey: i'm totally designing my own shelta-alike (why why why)
22:03:41 <Vorpal> elliott, because you decided to
22:03:56 <Vorpal> elliott, well that I don't know
22:04:33 <Vorpal> elliott, so stop doing it then
22:05:00 <elliott> what does that have to do with ocd?
22:05:05 <Vorpal> elliott, OCD in language design
22:05:09 <elliott> what does that have to do with ocd?
22:05:31 <Vorpal> obsessive compulsive disorder to write weird esolangs?
22:05:48 <Vorpal> and not knowing a good reason for why'
22:07:20 <elliott> cpressey: TELL HIM SHELTA ISN'T ESOTERIC
22:08:28 <cpressey> Shelta is more like bytewise masonry than a language
22:09:27 <Vorpal> elliott, so we are *gasp* off topic?
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22:13:33 <elliott> http://awos.wilcox-tech.com/ ooh an actual AWOS site (cpressey)
22:14:31 <elliott> Vorpal: oh it's from *that* place.
22:15:04 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm not familiar with it's code or such
22:15:10 <elliott> Vorpal: i just mean the people.
22:15:26 <elliott> Vorpal: i know where you know awilcox from
22:15:40 <Vorpal> elliott, oh yes, another irc network
22:15:48 <elliott> Vorpal: Huh? I was thinking ##socialites.
22:15:55 <cpressey> topic? should we be speculating about where oerjan is?
22:16:13 <elliott> Vorpal: lol he also contributes to http://www.j30ad.org/
22:16:14 <Vorpal> cpressey, waiting for oerjan
22:16:28 <elliott> which i can't figure out what it is
22:16:41 <Vorpal> elliott, and to that snowflake-OS thingy in ocaml iirc
22:16:52 <fizzie> I speculate a møøse-related incident.
22:17:15 <elliott> "Although AWOS cannot run a desktop environment, the lead developer recommends real X11 applications over a desktop environment (i.e. xfm is preferred over Konqueror or Nautilus)."
22:17:17 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, you know, they can be pretty nasty.
22:17:26 <elliott> http://linuxmint.com/software/pictures/screenshots/1152/Xfm.jpg xfm
22:17:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes bit why now
22:17:38 <elliott> It's not real if they use libraries!
22:18:07 <Vorpal> elliott, if you hope that attacks on him will work against me you are utterly wrong
22:18:09 <cpressey> Why would you ever write your own OS just to have it run the monstrosity that is the X Window system?
22:18:26 <elliott> stop being so self-centred
22:18:37 <elliott> cpressey: BECAUSE IT'S POSIX ENGINEERING TECHNOLOGY(TM)(TM)(R)(TM)
22:18:37 <Vorpal> elliott, you highlighted me
22:18:41 <Vorpal> "<elliott> Vorpal: oh it's from *that* place."
22:18:49 <elliott> Vorpal: because it was relevant to you having said you knew awilcox
22:18:51 <elliott> and then not specifying why
22:19:05 <elliott> cpressey: omg i get to use the a20 line
22:19:08 <elliott> cpressey: how awesome is that
22:19:15 <Vorpal> elliott, well I knew him from another irc network before he first showed up in ##socialites
22:19:59 <cpressey> elliott: using-both-x-and-y-inputs-of-an-oscillator awesome
22:20:26 <elliott> cpressey: yes, THAT awesome.
22:20:34 <Vorpal> elliott, I just looked at the license of AWOS. It seems to be BSD style
22:20:58 <Vorpal> not apache 1 any more at least
22:20:59 <cpressey> Vorpal, Even though it is a full-featured operating environment, AWOS is completely free and open-source.
22:21:15 <Vorpal> cpressey, hah. It's a hobby OS as far as I can tell
22:21:15 <cpressey> add quotes to that as you see fit
22:21:21 <fizzie> cpressey: You've seen that "Youscope" demo?
22:21:53 <elliott> Vorpal: a lot of hobby os developers like to pretend it's something more.
22:22:14 <Vorpal> elliott, well, that's his problem
22:22:33 <elliott> <Vorpal> cpressey, hah. It's a hobby OS as far as I can tell
22:22:37 <cpressey> awilcox, What are your computer's specs? Does it have a name?
22:23:09 <elliott> cpressey: quick name my OS
22:23:11 <Vorpal> I think he had a mac mini?
22:23:37 <fizzie> cpressey: It it at least in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1eNjUgaB-g -- made with a sound card and a computer, so it's a bit of a cheat, but still.
22:23:38 <Vorpal> cpressey, awesome name
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22:25:11 <Vorpal> elliott, no, Yak-MATIC
22:25:45 <Vorpal> elliott, that is why I didn't highlight fizzie :P
22:26:23 <Vorpal> I seen youscope long ago
22:27:18 <Vorpal> elliott, vector display right?
22:27:49 <cpressey> fizzie: that is the coolest thing i have seen in months
22:28:07 <elliott> cpressey: tempo -- perfect boring name for an os or perfect boring name for an os?
22:28:08 <fizzie> elliott: Maybe the vector display question was in re your OS.
22:28:21 <elliott> fizzie: i thought it might be, but decided to ignore that possible meaning intentionally.
22:28:55 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTApvwqZ_TM Doom on an oscilloscope! ...but it's just a PC with a real monitor in there, so fuck that shit.
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22:29:27 <Vorpal> <fizzie> elliott: Maybe the vector display question was in re your OS.
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22:30:06 <Vorpal> classical oscopes in x/y mode are vector displays right?
22:30:50 <Vorpal> elliott, so extremely high "DPI" then so to speak
22:30:56 <Vorpal> awesome, we should all use such instead
22:31:43 <elliott> fizzie: can you beat TEMPO??? maybe YAK-MOOSE?
22:32:17 <Vorpal> elliott, TIME SIGNATURE
22:32:41 <fizzie> elliott: Why not TempOS, the temporary OS -- aren't all OSes governmentally obligated to have "OS" in the name? (You know, like SunOS, OS-X, BeOS, MenuetOS, uh.. LinOSx, WindwOS, OSpenBSD, FrOSBSD, HOSrd, QOSNX...)
22:33:20 <fizzie> MicrOSoft, though -- maybe that already counts.
22:34:58 <fizzie> SGI OSirix, with the Egyptian theme.
22:35:22 <elliott> is emacs any good at intel-syntax asm?
22:36:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: with what mode?
22:36:20 <fizzie> I have a crummy nasm-mode, I think I advertised it already. It's a bit annoyingly automatic when it comes to indentation and such though, being tweaked to my own use.
22:36:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Not very good at assembler-specific syntax, in my experience.
22:36:35 <elliott> fizzie: How do you indent? :P
22:37:50 <fizzie> elliott: Well, there's stuff like when you write in a : that ends a label (at the beginning of line), it auto-adds either a tab or a newline+tab if the label is too long.
22:38:05 <fizzie> And there was some trickery with comments.
22:38:14 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:38:23 <elliott> fizzie: But, but what about functions? You have their names on the same line? :P
22:39:24 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
22:39:36 <fizzie> Sometimes I just add a newline for clarity; it auto-adds one tab of indent if the previous non-empty line had one (or was a label).
22:40:07 <elliott> fizzie: And strips off the indent from the last line?
22:40:24 <elliott> fizzie: Also, are we talking real tabs here or cheap plastic imitations of tabs (i.e. spaces)?
22:40:45 <fizzie> I actually based it on someone else's mode which was even more full of automation (kept reindenting comments based on whether they had 1/2/3 comment-start-chars in front.
22:41:16 <fizzie> Real tabs, at least with that use-tabs setting (I forget the name) on.
22:41:22 <elliott> Editors that do things not directly related to the keys I press scare me a bit, but I think I could handle that label stuff.
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22:41:35 <elliott> fizzie: Okay, hit me up with the .el :P
22:42:04 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/nasm-mode.el unless I typoed something.
22:42:46 <fizzie> But again, it wasn't really written for public consumption, so I take no responsibility if it annoys you to the point of spontaneous combustion.
22:43:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, does it support SSE4.2?
22:43:42 <Vorpal> elliott, I see some SSE instructions there
22:43:50 <elliott> fizzie: It works! But what's the magic to associate file extensions with a certain mode again?
22:43:52 <Vorpal> elliott, so stop laughing at that question
22:44:00 <elliott> Vorpal: I was ha ha haing at using SSE.
22:44:11 <Vorpal> "cvtdq2pd" "cvtdq2ps" "cvtpd2dq" "cvtpd2pi" "cvtpd2ps" "cvtph2ps"
22:44:11 <Vorpal> "cvtpi2pd" "cvtpi2ps" "cvtps2dq" "cvtps2pd" "cvtps2ph" "cvtps2pi"
22:44:16 <Vorpal> elliott, from that file ^
22:44:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Did I ever deny that?
22:44:29 <elliott> You're really good at (probably unintentional) strawman arguments.
22:44:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: I'm not sure; I took the instruction lists from the NASM manual, but not sure which version.
22:45:38 <fizzie> elliott: I just put "-*- mode: nasm -*-" in my nasm sources, since I have both .s and .asm files of different types too. But it was something like that.
22:46:02 <elliott> fizzie: Did you base it on this? http://onegeek.org/~tom/software/the_bin/nasm-mode.el
22:46:07 <elliott> Apparently there's an existing nasm-mode besides.
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22:47:45 <fizzie> elliott: I don't think I used that; can't recall what I used.
22:48:02 <Vorpal> xsha256 must he fairly new
22:48:21 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Or maybe I just didn't notice; "rel" is there.
22:48:30 <elliott> fizzie: What, no instruction highlighting?
22:48:57 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, for when you need addresses with respect to rip or something.
22:49:15 <fizzie> elliott: It does have; try closing and reopening. I think Emacs just gets confused by the huge lists.
22:49:37 <elliott> nop got highlighted there but only in strange circumstances.
22:49:42 <elliott> fizzie: Uh, and it'll work after that, right?
22:50:17 <elliott> fizzie: Oh, everything has to be in a label.
22:51:04 <elliott> fizzie: And, uh, sometimes it just doesn't highlight.
22:51:22 <fizzie> Well, it seems to be confused by editing at unpredictable times; I don't quite see how that could be my bug, since I just basically list the keywords.
22:51:48 <fizzie> The 6502 mode, with its lot smaller list of opcodes, works much better. :p
22:51:51 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm going to use recursive make just to spite you.
22:52:01 <elliott> fizzie: Some regexp issue?
22:52:04 <Vorpal> elliott, err. I never hated it that much
22:52:11 <Vorpal> I do slightly dislike it
22:52:18 <elliott> cpressey: I'm going to use recursive make just to spite you.
22:52:54 <fizzie> elliott: Feel free to fix it; I use regexp-opt to construct the highlight regexps from those large lists.
22:53:42 <elliott> fizzie: Hmm, is "bits 16" the default?
22:53:49 <elliott> org 0 definitely is, though.
22:54:08 <fizzie> Or maybe the default bits depends on the output format.
22:54:19 <elliott> fizzie: It defaults to raw, right?
22:55:07 <fizzie> Yes. Well, "bin" as they call it.
22:55:24 <elliott> fizzie: And I'm thinking I should probably specify this in the .s anyway just for clarity...
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22:57:27 <elliott> Hmm, er, my org stuff doesn't seem to be working
22:58:48 <elliott> 00000001 E9FCFF jmp word 0x0
22:58:51 <elliott> That is definitely not what should be happening.
22:59:08 <elliott> Vorpal: REVERSE RECURSIVE MAKEFILE
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22:59:32 <Vorpal> uh just about to turn off monitor
22:59:35 <Vorpal> elliott, wtf does that mean
22:59:43 <elliott> Vorpal: the makefile in each subdirectory
22:59:48 <elliott> Vorpal: just calls the makefile in the parent directory
22:59:56 <elliott> Vorpal: (possibly with the directory it's in prepended to the target)
22:59:58 <Vorpal> elliott, interesting idea
23:00:14 <elliott> Vorpal: Actually I'm just going to have a bunch of Makefiles for each component and a single Makefile that includes them all.
23:00:16 <Vorpal> elliott, awesomely evil idea
23:00:40 <fizzie> elliott: If you ndisasm the bin, you need to "ndisasm -o 0x1234" to tell it where it is, otherwise it gets relative stuff (like jumps) wrong.
23:00:53 <elliott> fizzie: Oh. Well that explains it, then.
23:01:08 <elliott> SO WHAT'S YOU GUYS' FAVOURITE SYNTAX FOR HEX
23:01:26 <elliott> $F00, 0xF00, or F00h? I just wanna spark a religious war, is that so wrong?
23:02:35 <fizzie> I write 0xf00 in nasm, $f00 in z80asm/ca65 and "10h" for the x86 "int 10h" instruction, nowhere else.
23:02:52 <Vorpal> elliott, 16#f00, but that is erlang syntax
23:03:04 <elliott> fizzie: 0xF00 seems so strange in asm to me.
23:03:19 <Vorpal> 0xfoo is what I prefer of the alternatives
23:03:27 <Vorpal> elliott, with lowercase letters of course
23:03:31 <elliott> your opinion is irrelevant
23:03:36 <fizzie> Just don't put in "0hfoo", that's just wrong. (NASM will eat that too.)
23:03:42 <elliott> anyway but $f00 is so pretty and nice, is it not fizzie?
23:04:18 <fizzie> It's not a fizzie, that's true. It's perfectly okay, of course.
23:05:36 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, TV Tropes' Main.FetishFuel article now redirects to TroperTales.FetishFuel.
23:07:02 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: But can you write anything in TroperTales.FetishFuel if it doesn't happen to be your own fetish?
23:08:44 <Phantom_Hoover> They actually had a point when they started cleaning up Nightmare Fuel; it has drifted from its original meaning. But this is blasphemy! This is madness!
23:12:00 <Phantom_Hoover> It wouldn't even be as bad if the Troper Tales pages weren't so atrociously coloured.
23:16:11 <elliott> Anyone know how to get the directory of the current Makefile as a make variable?
23:17:07 <elliott> Or even just the full path.
23:17:14 <elliott> Or the argument to -f, say.
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23:19:47 <quintopia> iirc you can execute arbitrary bash commands in a makefile, yes?
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23:24:35 <zzo38> When I program the VANSPEC database on BBL/Abundance Forth system, I can write like: HERE 0 , HERE - DUP ALLOT -1 * CONSTANT CELLSIZE
23:25:50 <elliott> zzo38: what's that assembler you use/wrote?
23:26:45 <zzo38> elliott: I made a assembler 888ASM, for x86, mostly only 16-bits. However I might make a improved one later, if I need a x86 assembler program again.
23:27:03 <elliott> zzo38: But I'm going to write my bootloader in it!
23:28:32 <zzo38> elliott: You can use 888ASM for now, I guess, if you want to; but there are some things which isn't very good, so I can rewrite a new one, which can work better, such as including both 16-bits and 32-bits mode, and some other things too.
23:28:46 <elliott> I'm probably actually just going to use nasm :P
23:29:50 <elliott> zzo38: Why do you have str_equal? It's the same as !strcmp(x,y).
23:29:55 <zzo38> elliott: OK use nasm if you want to. But I just wrote my own. (If I write a new one, I plan it should be (mostly) compatible with 888ASM)
23:30:07 <elliott> zzo38: Also str_find is literally strchr.
23:30:16 <zzo38> elliott: Yes, if I write a new one that is one thing I can fix. I can also fix it to have dynamic memory allocation, and other things, too.
23:31:40 <zzo38> Maybe new one can be called 889ASM instead! And it can support the same .asm files as 888ASM, but 889ASM files would not necessarily work with 888ASM, though.
23:33:26 <zzo38> (Note to anyone using my internationalization.wi program: It is suggested to add all translatable strings to the index.)
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23:34:01 <Sgeo> Where is my computer security book?
23:34:08 <Sgeo> I need it for homework due today
23:34:14 <Sgeo> Which I had a month to do, but whatever
23:34:18 <zzo38> Sgeo: Which computer security book?
23:34:28 <Sgeo> I don't remember the name
23:34:31 <Sgeo> The one for my class
23:35:47 <zzo38> You probably lost the other book under the bed, also.
23:36:42 <Sgeo> There are a lot of things under my bed
23:36:52 <Sgeo> My textbook, sadly, is not among those things
23:37:00 <zzo38> 888ASM uses only hexadecimal numbers. If I make 889ASM, it will use hexadecimal numbers by default, too, but I might have some codes to select decimal or octal as well.
23:37:08 <zzo38> Sgeo: What thing is under your bed? The floor?
23:37:09 <Sgeo> At least, as far as I can tell
23:37:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:37:58 <Sgeo> Some underwear, a nasal spray, some paper, a plastic bag, some envelope of something addressed to me
23:38:29 <Sgeo> Some wrapper for a snack that I do not eat
23:38:48 <Sgeo> ^^not an all inclusive list
23:39:46 <elliott> No seriously though, anyone with Makefile-fu?
23:40:07 <zzo38> I don't know much about Makefile. I don't write Makefile
23:42:55 * Sgeo decides to pirate the book
23:43:02 <Sgeo> They have my money anyway
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23:50:32 <elliott> root=$(shell dirname $(lastword $(MAKEFILE_LIST)))/..
23:50:32 <elliott> include $(root)/include.make
23:50:42 <elliott> Shroten this, receive prize.
23:50:46 -!- catseye has set topic: All your BASIC are belong to us | 8 days since last oerjan sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
23:51:58 <catseye> Is the prize a spider three times as big as me? NOTE: The awesome thing about such spider is, no matter how big you are, it is BIGGER
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23:54:31 <catseye> < Vorpal> elliott, so extremely high "DPI" then so to speak
23:54:39 <catseye> yes, except no, because there is... only one dot.
23:56:47 <zzo38> When reading the book "TeX: The Program", I can already see many things which can be improved.
23:56:54 <catseye> fizzie: I am henceforth going to refer to it as WindwOS.