00:01:33 Gregor: More seriously, I think it'll be pretty cool. Although would you be freaked out by programs you compile ending up using a different libc to the rest of the system? 'Cause if so, well. 00:01:46 libc is just another library :P 00:01:48 Gregor: (Static linking = just because a new libc comes out, doesn't mean I'm recompiling every fucking package) 00:02:01 (but I will package the new libc) 00:02:10 (so, you know, feel free) 00:02:16 (to recompile the entire system) 00:02:39 I'll only like it if you use something like my Separated Packages System :P 00:02:45 so what epic argument did I join in the midst of? 00:02:49 cal153: none at all 00:02:53 Gregor: Link me to that again, I forget the specifics. 00:03:00 Do I have a link for it? X-D 00:03:05 Gregor: It had a web page! 00:03:16 Gregor: With at least ONE example! 00:03:21 http://codu.org/projects/trac/sps/ 00:03:30 Gregor: It was not Trac! It in fact had no CSS at all! 00:03:34 Gregor: But this will do :P 00:03:52 Yeah, I have actually updated it since then. I rewrote it from scratch at least once. 00:03:55 Gregor: Right, that horrible piece of bloat :) 00:03:55 -!- nooga has joined. 00:04:20 Gregor: More seriously, I don't think I'll have a /usr. So, you know, you'll be messing with what / is. Which is, good luck. 00:04:30 Yeah, needs a /usr :P 00:04:40 Gregor: Well, feel free to create a /usr. And run SPS on it. I might even package it. 00:04:51 Gregor: You'll have to port it from apt-get though, which should be trivial :P 00:05:00 Gregor: Semi-relevant: 00:05:01 $ ls /opt 00:05:01 bash-4.1 emacs-23.2 nginx-0.8.53 ruby-1.9.2-p0 00:05:01 CLC-INTERCAL-1.-94.-2 ick-0.-2.0.29 perl-5.12.2 zsh-4.3.10 00:05:01 egobf-0.7.1 nasm-2.09.03 Python-2.7 00:05:13 Gregor: All installed from HTTP URLs to tarballs and nothing else :P 00:05:19 (inst(1)) 00:05:24 Hey, it's versioned! 00:05:33 http://www.nongnu.org/sps/ this was the page 00:05:50 Gregor: At least you've abandoned D. 00:05:59 Gregor: I note that your source repository is remarkably empty for SPS. 00:06:02 Notably, it lacks: SPS. 00:06:10 It's a good language with a community that's shit itself. 00:06:28 elliott: Uhh, you mean http://codu.org/projects/sps/hg/ ? 00:06:52 What language? 00:06:54 Gregor: It's a bad language with a bad toolchain and a community that has been blinded by the gigantic ejaculate of shittiness so that they can no longer see how crap their whole environment is, and patiently explain how to massage the crap into something vaguely usable to anyone who asks. 00:07:08 Gregor: No, I meant the Trac source viewer, which inexplicably has files in it :P 00:07:11 It's a GOOD language. At least D1 was. 00:07:18 Gregor: 'Snot. 'S like C++. 00:07:25 'snot! 00:07:26 Gregor, what language? 00:07:31 Gregor: Okay, that IS the repo I was seeing. 00:07:34 And it has no SPS :P 00:07:34 Sgeo: D. 00:07:39 Indeed! :P 00:07:45 Ignore SPS X-P 00:09:10 Gregor: To be honest, SPS is entirely useless for libraries because of static linking :P 00:10:36 Gregor: As far as needing various versions of *binaries*, well... how often do you actually have that need, seriously? Enough to build an entire system around? :P 00:10:48 Gregor: (Is putting a symlink named "gcc" somewhere in a temporary $PATH so difficult?) 00:11:11 elliott: It's spiritually based on a system they used at Intel. 00:11:16 For a normal system it's totally useless :P 00:11:36 Gregor: Yeah, I'm sure systems as fucked up as Intel will migrate to Kitten right away :P 00:11:42 And expect everything to work out of the box, too! :D 00:12:06 I <3 the mountains 00:12:12 coppro: I <3 poop 00:12:21 wrong answer 00:12:28 coppro: Says the coprophiliac. 00:13:01 http://bits.ohloh.net/attachments/5031/logo-caca.png 00:13:12 That is indeed libcaca's logo. 00:14:08 used to be 00:14:20 Oh, they changed it. Slightly. 00:15:32 Gregor: I just realised the Kitten release day will be plagued by your silly complaints :P 00:17:34 link to Kitten? 00:17:39 Gregor: (Unless you like it and promise to use it forever, and then I'll just have to deal with your bug reports) 00:17:54 calamari: file:///home/ehird/mind-fifo 00:17:58 (Also ~/kitten for stuff I'm hacking on) 00:18:03 lol 00:18:03 Err, not fifo. Device file. 00:18:09 calamari: http://www.webdesign.org/img_articles/7072/BW-kitten.jpg 00:18:36 did you kill it? :( 00:18:47 No, God did. 00:18:57 :D 00:21:33 so if Huckabee wins and puts God into the constitution, what does that mean for us godless sinners? 00:21:48 calamari: It means no kittens. 00:21:55 Also, nothing (apart from the ones who live in the US). 00:22:04 Gregor: How STRONG is your hate for ksh? 00:22:23 calamari, I would hope that Congress wouldn't vote any such amendment in 00:22:43 00:22:58 elliott: Less than bash or zsh, more than csh? 00:23:11 Erm 00:23:11 yeah well I'd hope that the president can't choose to kill any citizen he wants to with no oversight, but that can happen 00:23:12 Gregor: You... hate ksh more than csh? 00:23:13 :-P 00:23:14 That was all backwards 00:23:22 elliott: More than bash or zsh, less than csh? 00:23:24 Gregor: ?hsc naht... no, I still don't get it. 00:23:47 Gregor: WELL TOUGH! cuz it totally (will) (use)[s] pdksh by default. 00:23:57 Gregor: or emacs :-D 00:24:02 The Pretty Damn Kute Shell 00:24:38 public domain ksh actually :P 00:24:46 shit shell is still supreme 00:24:54 Gregor: Well, actually, it's more likely to be the portable version of the OpenBSD ksh. 00:25:11 Gregor: (Or mksh) 00:26:04 http://www.delilinux.de/oksh/ 00:26:04 https://github.com/dryfish/openbsd-pdksh 00:26:05 http://www.wormhole.hu/~ice/ksh/ 00:26:07 Oh the choices... 00:26:57 "To use mksh, you only need the C runtime (and any supplemental libraries the binary was linked against) and, optionally, /bin/ed" 00:27:21 "The first example is using BSD paxtar (MirOS BSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD®), or 00:27:21 “bsdtar” (DragonFly); the second and third use cpio(1) or pax(1) and are 00:27:21 for most operating systems; the fourth is for Debian." ;; there are exactly three examples listed 00:31:21 Gregor: Aw man, I'll definitely have to include GNU make. 00:31:49 MUAHAHAHAHA 00:31:58 Gregor: Unless you know of a make that's gompatible :P 00:32:13 "pymake: A mostly GNU-compatible python implementation of `make`" 00:32:17 GOOGLING THIS REASSURES ME 00:32:27 Oh, it's for Mozilla. 00:32:31 Okay, slightly more inspired :P 00:32:34 "# Parallel builds (-j > 1) are not yet supported" 00:32:36 Inspiration utterly drained 00:34:11 │ This option makes grep, sed etc handle rare corner cases │ 00:34:11 │ (embedded NUL bytes and such). This makes code bigger and uses │ 00:34:11 │ some GNU extensions in libc. You probably only need this option │ 00:34:11 │ if you plan to run busybox on desktop. │ 00:34:19 I like how I want that but can't if I'm not going to use glibc :P 00:35:03 WJW: 00:35:04 │ Store usage messages in compressed form, uncompress them on-the-fly │ 00:35:05 │ when --help is called. │ 00:36:24 Why would... maybe I shouldn't bother being part of this channel 00:36:45 But why would things like handling embedded NUL bytes require extens... Oh. C string suckiness. Right 00:38:36 Gregor: I certainly can't find the option to have all applets as separate binaries. 00:39:52 │ Line editing code uses on-stack buffers for storage. │ 00:39:52 │ Symbol: FEATURE_EDITING_MAX_LEN [=1024] │ 00:39:58 x_x 00:40:44 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:42:04 elliott, bought minecraft yet? 00:42:15 Vorpal: Ehm, too busy Kittening. Which would you prefer? :P 00:42:30 Vorpal: Right now I'm trying to coerce busybox to build a lot of little binaries rather than one gigantic one. 00:42:52 elliott, I would prefer that you made a giant kitten model in minecraft. Or implemented kitten on that ALU in minecraft! 00:42:57 Which appears impossible 00:43:02 Vorpal: There's a CPU now. 00:43:07 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:43:08 elliott, ah 00:43:20 Vorpal: It had a whopping 8 bytes of RAM, which is apparently going to be doubled. 00:43:32 elliott, could take a lot of work 00:43:37 also chunk issues 00:43:45 Vorpal: Not really, it's just tedious (copying the blocks). 00:43:48 Of course if you used an editor... 00:43:57 hah indeed 00:44:02 elliott: You should exclusively support x86_64. 00:44:16 pikhq: And then what of all the other machines? 00:44:24 Screw them. 00:44:32 pikhq: You do realise that all good ThinkPads were 32-bit? 00:44:44 what about ARM 00:44:54 Vorpal: screw ARM. no really, screw ARM :P 00:44:57 Vorpal: Everyone knows there can only be one architecture. 00:45:02 pikhq, hah 00:45:06 Vorpal: You can't make "an ARM OS", you have to make 50 ARM OSes pretending to be one. 00:45:39 elliott, um you could just put the custom code in one place? 00:45:46 "a minimal static blog generator written using old-school unix tools (make, ksh, m4, awk, procmail and a pinch of elisp)" 00:45:54 make okay, ksh okay, m4 okay, awk okay, ... procmail?! 00:45:56 ... elisp?!?!?! 00:45:57 -!- zzo38 has joined. 00:46:00 Vorpal: ? 00:46:20 elliott, I mean, linux pretends to be not only x86 and x86_64, but also ARM and what not 00:46:23 elliott: ! 00:46:33 Vorpal: I do not understand your words. :P 00:47:00 Gregor: Gaah, why did you make my brain believe BusyBox would be nice and simple; the damn thing has an implementation of dpkg! 00:47:04 Vorpal: You can't make "an ARM OS", you have to make 50 ARM OSes pretending to be one. <-- so linux is more than 50 OSes (remember the other arches) pretending to be one? 00:47:14 elliott: I never intended to imply it was simple at all :P 00:47:15 It's not. 00:47:27 Vorpal: Except that ARM is wildly inconsistent since it's, like, the most popular CPU around and isn't even one consistent architecture :P 00:47:39 And at least x86/64 implies something vaguely like an IBM PC in some ways. 00:47:40 elliott, hm true 00:47:48 (that meaning x86/x86_64) 00:47:49 elliott, there were non-PCs 00:47:55 elliott, based on x86 00:47:56 Yes, but you can't boot i386 Linux on them :P 00:48:08 elliott, it supports some of them 00:48:09 iirc 00:48:28 elliott, some weird 32-bit NUMA system and so on 00:48:48 Xen :P 00:49:06 well, that is special 00:49:13 anyway, night → 00:49:15 UML! 00:49:16 Gregor: Fuck BusyBox, I already have one hellishly deep configuration set to work out (Linux) :P 00:50:09 Gregor: Now you are legally required to point me to something that isn't BusyBox (or gnu coreutils) :P 00:50:29 http://www.google.com/search?q=heirloom+toolchest 00:50:35 elliott: You can boot i386 Linux on those odd-ball architectures. 00:50:41 elliott: You just have to build the kernel for them. 00:50:47 Gregor: Yeah, I know what Heirloom is. It's what Sgeo would do, if he grew up on UNIX. 00:50:56 Gregor: I am not aiming for nostalgia, old Unix sucked and that's the truth :P 00:51:06 (I would like to claim the UNIX typo there was intentional.) 00:52:27 Well, then BSD. 00:52:38 -rwxr-xr-x 1 elliott elliott 937K Nov 10 00:50 busybox 00:52:40 Look at that crap! 00:52:43 (Okay, so that's dynamic glibc.) 00:52:45 (And gcc.) 00:52:55 (And it probably contains all sorts of useless crap I didn't have the patience to disable.) 00:53:04 What's the point of keeping the old algorithms (which are somewhat invisible) intact, but removing some nostalgia-inducing limitations? 00:53:17 Gregor: I tried compiling the FreeBSD core utilities on OS X once -- the same damn OS, you will recall. 00:53:21 Gregor: FIRE AND MOTHERFUCKIN' BRIMSTONE. 00:53:27 That code is soooooooo not portable. 00:53:35 Oh wait, this is actually for "real work"? 00:53:41 elliott: How 'bout NetBSD! 00:53:45 * Sgeo mindboggles 00:53:46 "Linux: Of course it runs NetBSD!" 00:53:54 :P 00:54:01 ^faq Linux 00:54:04 ^netbsd Linux 00:54:06 Hmm. 00:54:07 ^help 00:54:07 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 00:54:17 fizzie: What did I call that command, again? 00:54:30 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:54:40 -!- HackEgo has joined. 00:54:50 -!- EgoBot has joined. 00:56:45 TIME FOR A VOTE 00:56:48 Shoo-in or shoe-in? 00:56:58 I think the latter, like "shoe in the door" 00:57:04 But apparently other people think the former. 00:57:14 Gregor: I thought it was the latter but apparently "not" http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/shoe-in.html 00:57:19 A race horse so fast that you can merely shoo it across the finish line rather than having to urge it on with stronger measures is a “shoo-in”: an easy winner. It is particularly unfortunate when this expression is misspelled “shoe-in” because to “shoehorn” something in is to squeeze it in with great difficulty. 00:57:39 I think shoe-in has overtaken in the public consc... consciousness of the small portion of the public that says that. 00:57:47 shoot-in 00:58:14 elliott: That description of unfortunateitude makes no sense, since it ignores the expression "shoe in the door" ... 00:58:30 Gregor: THARS PRESCRIPTIVISM FOUR YAR 00:59:05 Prescriptivists suck. And not in the good way. I'm spelling it "shoe-in" just to be anti-prescriptivist ... in a prescriptivist kind of way. 00:59:20 I'll prescribe YOUR ivist. 01:02:48 Gregor: Wikipedia trying to counter our argument for little-endian systems because of some misguided notion of neutrality: "On the other hand, in some situations it may be useful to obtain an approximation of a multi-byte or multi-word value by reading only its most-significant portion instead of the complete representation; a big-endian processor may read such an approximation using the same base-addr 01:02:48 ess that would be used for the full value." 01:02:52 I wonder if anyone has ever used that ever :P 01:03:53 Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, nice nonsense hypothetical there :P 01:12:01 Sgeo: your wiki reign is finally over 01:12:05 Sgeo: nethackwiki just moved off wikia 01:12:11 onto the NAO server 01:12:39 now let's watch wikia do their usual thing and try and split the community 01:12:57 Nethackwiki should totes be a Hackiki :P 01:13:18 [[Wikia staff members (ie Sannse) have been deleting ANY post which mentions eyestrain or headaches on the community blogs. There have been several ophthalmologists from Britain who've posted that the skin has caused eyestrain to those who have dominant right eyes, and that the eyestrain could easily cause a headache. All posts were deleted with the reason being "spam".]] 01:13:23 It is absolutely insane, Wikia. 01:13:28 First it was "wiki host". 01:13:32 elliott, I'm an admin there too 01:13:34 Then it was "we made a new skin. FUCK YOU, YOU WILL LIKE IT." 01:14:05 Then it was "don't like it? Moving off? We refuse to give you anything, and we WILL continue using your URL and name and promoting it over yours. Also, we registered [yourwiki].com because fuck you. You can't have it. [This actually happened]" 01:14:19 Now it's "Expert? Think we're damaging eyes? FUCK. YOU." 01:14:29 Also, I did get someone more experienced with such moves to help contribute advice 01:14:37 And elliott still has me blocked 01:14:46 * Gregor plays websplat on the Nethack wiki. 01:15:08 Gregor, get elliott to either unignore me or read the logs of just now 01:15:09 What, http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Main_Page? 01:15:13 Hardly many images. 01:15:16 Gregor: any new havenworks scores? 01:15:29 elliott: None better than what'd been done before :P 01:15:43 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to CheckLogs. 01:15:46 -!- CheckLogs has changed nick to Sgeo. 01:15:54 Sgeo: Nice attempt :P 01:15:56 Gregor: Did Mr. Inhuman play again? 01:15:59 Actually, I saw that nick change. 01:16:03 Why, I'm not sure. 01:17:27 (15:56:29 * Sgeo is just glad humanity hasn't been sterilized <-- wut) 01:17:46 SG-1 "2010" reference 01:17:48 15:36:59 A ... geeky person I know seems to have found an issue with common definitions of turing-complete 01:17:56 I added two configured channels now 01:17:58 Hardly; ais523 has been over all these ambiguities with his proof. 01:18:11 That's as far as I'm reading :P 01:18:27 I was hoping you'd be reading my response to the wiki stuff >.> 01:18:48 17:18:27 I was hoping you'd be reading my response to the wiki stuff >.> 01:18:49 You said one line 01:19:09 2 01:19:35 Is elliott having trouble counting without Captain Obvious? 01:20:00 elliott should take some C&O lessons 01:20:19 coppro: ? 01:20:36 elliott: combinatorics & optimization 01:20:37 a field of math 01:20:45 Gregor: [[In Related languages section, after the phrase "Many people at various times have tried to extend brainfuck to make it easier to program in", I would like to delete "but such efforts have been compared to trying to make a luxury car by gluing parts onto a skateboard" and put in this place "BrainSub is the first one to achieve this goal in 2007"; unless someone have reasons to not to do this c 01:20:46 hange. What do you think? Aacini 03:50, 18 July 2007 (UTC)]] 01:20:49 coppro: Yes, I am not sure why you said that. 01:20:51 He needs to learn to count first 01:21:15 elliott: laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawl 01:21:31 Sgeo: no, that's where he goes to learn to count 01:21:42 oh right, elliott has Sgeo on /ignore 01:21:47 that's why he doesn't get it 01:22:11 Oh :P 01:22:36 This BrainSub person is an idiot :P 01:23:01 No shit :P 01:23:09 GERDNIGHT; FLUTBAI 01:23:11 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:24:56 Let's put COBOL in a modern runtime! Oh, wait, that's been done for real. For serious reasons. 01:25:21 COBOL.NET and BrainSub were made by the same person! 01:25:29 Can't you see? 01:28:14 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:31:50 I think Gregor has his ignore list hardlinked to elliott's 01:32:04 Nope 01:32:11 Acting like it sometimes though 01:53:24 * Sgeo catches the end of Time's Arrow 02:02:20 -!- Sasha has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:05:23 -!- Sasha has joined. 02:10:14 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.12/20101026210630]). 02:16:04 * Sgeo immediately notes an averted trope in this SGU episode 02:16:12 Well, hmm 02:17:28 B0NERS? 02:19:01 The ship did not stop moving when engines went off 02:19:14 I need to watch this season 02:19:22 when is the hiatus? 02:20:22 hmm? Not sure 02:22:43 * coppro wikipedias it 02:23:25 hmm.. 3 weeks from now 02:23:30 * coppro debates torrenting now vs. then 02:29:59 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 02:32:01 Is it possible to torrent now, and then later only the relevant episodes? 02:33:27 That sentence makes no sense, but I THINK you're talking about downloading only particular files via *torrent, which you can do with certain clients. 02:33:36 Such as most clients, for example. 02:41:41 This episode is somewhat painful 02:42:02 Just.. plot hole wise. Or maybe I don't remember some previous episodes well enough 02:45:47 Sgeo: it is 02:45:52 but that requires getting two torrents 02:47:22 Wow. Car manufacturers design 3 different versions of their cars: US, rest of the world right-hand-drive, rest of the world left-hand-drive. 02:47:59 Because, just to be contrary (honest, *just to be contrary*), our safety standards are completely different from every other countries'. 02:48:14 (and incompatible) 02:49:04 waitwhat 02:49:18 actually just to be incompatible? 02:49:22 Yes. 02:49:34 that sounds so very american 02:49:35 The world safety standards came *before* the US ones. 02:49:40 examples of incompatibilities? 02:50:00 The types of headlights mandated in the rest of the world are banned in the US. 02:50:08 hahaha 02:50:12 wow 02:51:35 Also, US safety standards are based around increasing safety without increasing cost appreciably. 02:51:39 And yet these Zenon (or whateverTV) bulbs are allowed? 02:51:39 Oh wait, are they actually Xenon? 02:51:42 Like, actual Xenon? 02:51:52 What's bad about Xenon? 02:51:54 I thought it was just some brand name, never occurred to me that it may not be X-D 02:52:25 Oh, the ultra bright bulbs? 02:52:31 Sgeo: Xenon bulbs are so fucking bright that they blind everyone unlucky enough to be in their path. So the driver may be able to see the pedestrian (unless he's blinded by the glare), but the pedestrian is blind. 02:53:36 You're only supposed to use them in certain conditions, I think 02:53:45 Although, drivers being drivers... 02:53:59 Gregor: In the rest of the world, such headlights require lens cleaners and automatic beam levelling for the purpose of reducing the glare and blinding. 02:54:06 Gregor: In the US, such things are optional. 03:01:47 SGU SPOILER IN TRAILER FOR NEXT EPISODE FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU 03:02:46 My memory 03:02:52 lol 03:02:54 never watch those 03:03:04 's already editing it to make me wonder if I misremembered and maybe they said something else 03:03:25 And of course, it's possible that what I heard happen doesn't happen for "real" 03:03:35 Oh, and US safety standards also have the effect of reducing fuel efficiency *while* decreasing safety. 03:03:38 Bravo. Bravo. 03:03:47 pikhq, how so? 03:03:54 pikhq: but it costs no more, right? 03:04:00 that's what's important! 03:04:39 Sgeo: The safety standards require less safe and less fuel-efficient designs. 03:04:57 Stargate Wiki: FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUU even more 03:05:05 Sgeo: LOL 03:05:10 you aren't caught up 03:05:13 and you went to a wiki 03:05:14 WHY 03:05:14 In particular, our mandate for 1940s headlight designs up until the early 90s made creating aerodynamic cars almost impossible. 03:05:17 I am caught up 03:05:25 oh 03:05:31 then wth did the wiki do? 03:05:37 We motherfucking hate logic. 03:05:53 "**** will have a *-episode story arc" 03:06:06 Sgeo: ah 03:06:25 Although actually, the given number doesn't quite match ... um, actuality 03:06:28 AFAICT 03:06:34 I think 03:07:24 Wait, n-episode might mean she's not involved in every episode 03:07:25 Hmm 03:07:35 So the n only includes episode's she's in? 03:08:04 * Sgeo is confused 03:08:22 Still, I heard what I heard. And that n is a small number 03:08:36 Crud 03:08:43 I gave away more than I intended to 03:10:44 US classification of weapons makes no fucking sense. 03:11:24 All GPS receivers capable of functioning above 18km altitude and 515 m/s are considered weapons under US law. 03:11:52 hahah 03:11:59 * Sgeo has no use for such a devic... _capable_? 03:11:59 what about Galileo receivers? 03:12:14 As such, all consumer GPS receivers have code for disabling that. 03:12:29 Sgeo: Yes, *capable*. 03:13:04 I had this missile lying around, and I wanted to target a specific location, so I got a GPS. Sadly, they disabled the ability to work under the conditions I need. 03:13:08 coppro: No such stupidity. 03:13:18 Sgeo: Doesn't stop cruise missiles. 03:13:27 Sgeo: Just ballistic missiles. 03:13:42 I'm pretty sure someone with a ballistic missile could make a GPS receiver. 03:13:49 Indeed 03:14:14 Doesn't the military have the ability to disable GPS or something? 03:14:24 That was removed iirc 03:14:27 Sgeo: Yes. 03:14:51 coppro: Actually, they just disabled the feature that gives the military higher accuracy than consumer devices. 03:15:04 ah 03:15:15 coppro: They can still selectively *disable* GPS in a region except for the US military. 03:15:31 a 03:20:15 Oh, awesome. Soviet Russia did a global navigation satellite system as well. 03:20:18 It still functions. 03:20:28 of course it does 03:20:32 nobody took it down 03:20:53 It fell into disrepair in the 90s, but Russia committed to restoring it by 2010 back in 2000. 03:22:12 Did they succeed? 03:22:38 Sgeo: It covered the world once again in September. 03:22:50 Had full coverage of Russia earlier. 03:23:54 How do sattelites manage to have full coverage of exactly one area of the globe for a significant period of time? 03:23:55 They're also about to launch more satellites that will broadcast on the same frequencies as GPS, GALILEO, Compass, et al. 03:24:14 (so that a multistandard receiver would be easier) 03:24:53 Hypothetically, could someone launch a satellite that sends fake GPS or GALILEO signals? 03:25:44 Sgeo: Actually, it's more that each satellite has coverage of a *path*. Full coverage in an area involves being able to access more than one satellite at the same time 24/7, by having the paths intersect just right. 03:26:15 Ah 03:26:39 Sgeo: Not very well. One of the things that those satellites do is broadcast information about *all* the satellites (rough orbital path, general system health, etc.). 03:29:46 And how they actually get the positioning down is by each satellite having an atomic clock and broadcasting a time signal. 03:31:24 Account for the speed of light, you get the distance from each satellite, triangulate, voila. 03:31:44 And I assume the receiver calculates where each sattelite should be? Where does that part occur? 03:32:25 It knows the orbital path of each satellite. 03:32:35 Because it got told by all the satellites. 03:33:00 you said "rough" orbital path 03:33:55 The satellite also broadcasts its own orbital path as accurately as can be measured. 03:34:34 Ah 03:35:11 Does the receiver have much use for the excess information (path of other satellites)? 03:35:40 Makes it easier to find the other satellites. 03:36:04 And know if some satellites are bogus. 03:44:54 Defintion of "weapon of mass destruction" is also quite bad. Certainly more broad than the classical definition of "ABC". 03:48:07 Or even the extended defintion of CBRN... 03:50:06 And why is encryption a form of weaponry? 03:50:14 Fuck the US. 03:50:15 Wonder if the GPS receivers are hardened against bogus data (systems receiving "trusted" data might not be)... 03:50:51 I'd imagine consumer receivers aren't, but military receivers are. 03:51:05 There was some STB that could be hung quite badly by sending random garbage as data... 03:51:36 Intentionally bogus data is even worse than random garbage. 03:52:20 The reason for that guess is simple: the military gives a shit about their systems always working, and consumer electronics manufacturers give a shit about saving pennies. 04:01:05 Surely it's a matter of software to do some checking? 04:01:30 Although I guess development time does cost money, so 04:01:53 I don't see how it's not basically a one-time cost though 04:04:03 Remember: business is run by cheap-ass bastards. 04:05:52 *cheap ass-bastards 04:07:08 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:07:11 I wonder if you could dye your hair a color that no human has, but is subtle enough the people wouldn't immediately recognize it as fake. 04:08:51 -!- augur has joined. 04:14:28 * Sgeo learns about the Nuclear Football 04:17:30 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:21:56 -!- zzo38 has joined. 04:52:48 Hello. Welcome to ;jaljsdfa;lsjfwijf.0wjt.4wtj42q3t1t3ji0gjehjNO CARRIERljq3;4tlj,,v;tc.-0935-91324`;skv a,ijgrntwerjk; 05:14:44 -!- Ilari_an1rcomp has joined. 05:16:17 -!- yiyus__ has joined. 05:16:29 -!- Ilari_ has joined. 05:16:41 -!- mycrofti1 has joined. 05:17:10 -!- fungot has quit (*.net *.split). 05:17:10 -!- yiyus_ has quit (*.net *.split). 05:17:10 -!- fizzie has quit (*.net *.split). 05:17:10 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (*.net *.split). 05:17:10 -!- Ilari has quit (*.net *.split). 05:17:10 -!- mycroftiv has quit (*.net *.split). 05:17:11 -!- fizzie` has joined. 05:18:14 -!- Ilari_an1rcomp has changed nick to Ilari_antrcomp. 05:18:15 -!- Ilari_ has changed nick to Ilari. 05:25:14 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:39:58 Can GraphicsMagick with with MIFF format? 05:48:04 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:56:33 -!- augur has joined. 06:10:21 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:19:58 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:30:23 -!- augur has joined. 06:40:12 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 06:44:23 -!- FireFly has joined. 06:50:31 -!- fizzie` has changed nick to fizzie. 07:30:22 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 07:36:39 -!- Slereah has joined. 07:40:03 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 07:41:35 -!- jcp has joined. 07:43:19 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:51:29 -!- wareya_ has joined. 07:54:08 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:05 elliott (for log reading): yellow text: "NP is not in P!" XD 08:00:13 I doubt he has proof 08:00:49 and if he did, would it give him more money to write the paper or work on minecraft? 08:01:20 bbl 08:03:58 The Millennium prize for "P ? NP" is $1M; minecraft.net says "579053 purchases" at the moment, so with 9.95 EUR/purchase, that's gross profits of about $7.9M. Of course it's anyone's guess how large a percentage of that will be burned by the startup company; probably pretty large. 08:04:20 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.12/20101026210630]). 08:27:23 fizzie, heh 08:28:51 fizzie, NP has a strange name considering it isn't known to not be in P 08:29:40 I'unno, it's not N for "non", after all. 08:31:38 ah wait, I'm still half asleep 08:31:44 that explains it 08:35:25 well, bbl (university) 08:36:07 http://www.salon.com/technology/how_the_world_works/2010/11/09/john_shimkus_god_and_noah 08:36:11 pikhq: your government is fucked up 08:36:50 Heh... If there is problem in NEXPTIME that's not in EXPTIME, then NP does not equal P. 08:59:18 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:00:12 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 09:04:05 -!- Slereah has joined. 09:23:14 -!- Decarabia has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:25:52 -!- Decarabia has joined. 10:59:29 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 11:02:22 -!- Deewiant has joined. 13:27:24 -!- sftp has joined. 13:52:46 -!- nooga has joined. 14:09:13 fizzie: Actually it is "non" ... non-deterministic anyway :P 14:09:37 Well, if you want to be a PEDANTIC PEDANTY PEDAN about it. 14:09:52 Pee-dan. 14:11:18 *pedo 14:20:54 -!- elliott has joined. 14:21:07 21:39:58 Can GraphicsMagick with with MIFF format? 14:21:08 Yes. 14:21:25 00:00:05 elliott (for log reading): yellow text: "NP is not in P!" XD 14:21:26 link 14:21:41 00:03:58 The Millennium prize for "P ? NP" is $1M; minecraft.net says "579053 purchases" at the moment, so with 9.95 EUR/purchase, that's gross profits of about $7.9M. Of course it's anyone's guess how large a percentage of that will be burned by the startup company; probably pretty large. 14:21:46 PayPal take a LOT of it. 14:25:52 19:50:06 And why is encryption a form of weaponry? 14:25:52 19:50:14 Fuck the US. 14:25:54 non-US countries have that 14:27:55 PayPal merchant rate says it's (2.9 %+$0.30) per transaction by default, (1.9%+$0.30) for the "merchant rate" with >$100k monthly payments. Then there's a +1% cross-border fee, and +2.5% currency-conversion fee that I guess quite often would apply to someone in Sweden accepting money in EUR. And maybe other hidden fees; still, I don't think they can conceivably eat more than, say, a third. 14:28:15 Rich bastard :) 14:28:52 I think quite a few indie-ish game-developers are feeling the envy. I know at least one. :p 14:33:04 fizzie: Hell, I'm jealous of my indie-game-developer-blah friend, and he only makes on the order of thousands. 14:33:15 (But then his games take a lot less work to make than Minecraft. :P) 14:36:41 "A ′′symmetric algorithm′′ employing a key length in excess of 56 bits" is part of the EU-wide export control restrictions; see the 269 pages of Regulation 428/2009 at http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2009/june/tradoc_143390.pdf 14:37:13 How to deal with crypto export laws when publishing open source software on the Internet: Ignore them. :p 14:37:20 There are all kinds of exceptions, of course. 14:37:27 (Although put some kind of "If this is illegal for you then, welp" notice there.) 14:37:57 You are allowed to put strong encryption into a DVB set as long as it is "exclusively used for sending the billing or programme-related information back to the broadcast providers". 14:38:32 Also okay are things that are "specially designed and limited for banking use or ’money transactions’". 14:39:24 A subnote of 5A002 Note d clarifies that "settlement of fares" is a type of money transaction. 14:40:49 And mobile phones as long as they can only talk directly into the network operator's hardware, and can't do end-to-end encryption. 14:40:55 Heh. 14:41:35 Also good: "Portable or mobile radiotelephones and similar client wireless devices for civil use, that implement only published or commercial cryptographic standards (except for anti-piracy functions, which may be non-published) and also meet the provisions of paragraphs b. to d. of the Cryptography Note ..." 14:41:36 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:42:10 It's a long long document. 14:42:37 fizzie: "Crypto is weaponry, unless you use it for things you'd use crypto for." 14:42:41 Summaris'd 14:42:45 (Summarise'd?) 14:43:05 "Personal area network" things that involve only "published or commercial" standards are exempt as long as "the cryptographic capability is limited to a nominal operating range not exceeding 30 metres according to the manufacturer’s specifications". 14:43:24 "Sorry, you can't ship this: the crypto goes three metres too far." 14:43:46 :D 14:46:37 Plan: Hijack fizzie's laptop server. Use copious disk space to store Kitten packages. 14:46:38 -!- FireFly has joined. 14:46:48 (TODO: Find out how much disk fizzie's laptop server has.) 14:46:58 (TODO: Avoid law enforcement.) 14:47:37 I went to do a df for you, but apparently the vserver stuff messes that up a bit. 14:47:45 Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on 14:47:45 /dev/hdv1 5.0G 971M 3.8G 21% / 14:48:12 fizzie: That's quite alright! Just do a ... whatever command creates one of them servers ... for me1 14:48:13 *me! 14:48:51 I don't think I'm going to start server-hosting, sowwy. 14:49:02 fizzie: No, you see, I'll be hijacking. 14:49:07 So you'd have no official position at all! 14:50:10 In actual reality the external USB disk thing has 233G, of which 151G is used. Why is there so much stuff in there, in fact? 14:50:28 fizzie: Yeah, that thing could store far more Kitten packages. 14:51:16 "Suppliers wishing to apply for authorisation should contact the competent national authorities for details of what information must be supplied." But what if everyone in my country is incompetent? 14:51:42 fizzie: Join the EU! 14:51:48 (I am not quite sure what political opinion that makes.) 14:52:00 -!- jcp has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 14:52:02 Also there's the obvious nonsensicalness of it all. 14:52:10 Being that it's circular. 14:52:28 Also the page on how export control is derived from UN resolutions is titled "How to prevent proliferation of horrific weapons, weapons of mass destruction?" 14:52:38 HORRIFIC, I tell you. 14:52:47 HORRIFIC 35-meter-range personal area networks. 14:53:19 fizzie: I like the repetition. 14:53:33 HORRIFIC WEAPONS. EWAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION! 14:54:40 Ewoks of mass destruction. 14:58:05 -!- jcp has joined. 14:59:14 Gregor: Wait, non-GNU/Linux has a serious problem: what binutils? 14:59:20 I don't know of any maintained ones apart from the GNU ones. 15:10:09 [in #pcc] 15:10:12 gnu/linux is about the worst host OS for it 15:10:12 their system headers are *so* incompatible… 15:10:12 gcc and glibc specifc, and all that 15:10:12 (non-GNU)/Linux actually :-) 15:10:12 ah 15:10:13 then good luck 15:10:17 People as crazy as me! Whoo! 15:18:39 Gregor: apparently in the EU interfaces aren't copyrightable 15:35:56 │ The amount of time saved by this optimization is actually too small to │ 15:35:57 │ measure. The linker just had to search the library path to find the │ 15:35:57 │ linker script, so the dentries are cache hot if it has to search the │ 15:35:57 │ same path again. But it's what glibc does, so we do it too. │ 15:38:14 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:38:17 1. Compile uClibc (with gcc). 2. Compile pcc (with gcc and uClibc). 3. Compile uClibc (with pcc). 4. Compile pcc (with new uClibc and pcc). 15:49:39 Oh well, utter fail; seems my gcc is not friends with uClibc. And I don't feel like building gcc right now. 15:49:52 build clang instead? 15:52:33 Awesome 15:52:41 I lost two points on a subjective question 15:52:46 well done 15:52:56 coppro: no :) 15:52:57 coppro: i like pcc 15:53:05 coppro: (I'll probably use clang for C++ programs) 15:53:21 -!- augur has joined. 15:53:24 And before you say clang has substandard C++ support, it's not nearly as substandard as pcc's C++ support, because it has none. 15:53:25 "What sort of tasks is pattern matching useful for? Name three" 15:53:27 My answer: 15:53:49 http://pastie.org/1287296 15:53:57 coppro: I could just build a gcc made to work with uClibc, but I'm trying to get away from gcc and its build system, dammit! (I could just use buildroot but I think it wanted me to build a Linux kernel and I like doing that myself thankyouverymuch). 15:54:42 "# Supports several hundreds of packages for userspace applications and libraries: X.org stack, Gtk2, Qt, DirectFB, SDL, GStreamer and a large number of network-related and system-related utilities and libraries are supported." 15:54:44 lawl 15:55:12 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:55:16 elliott: 1. Compile clang (with gcc). 2. Compile uClibc (with clang). 3. Compile clang (with clang and uClibc). 4. Compile uClibc (with clang) etc. 15:55:17 -!- nooga has joined. 15:55:19 coppro, 15:55:28 coppro: step 4 is unnecessary 15:56:03 coppro: also, i know how to build clang, i just don't want to :) Besides, I bet you that the clang you build in step 1 won't be able to build uClibc programs properly. 15:56:16 elliott: why do you say that? 15:56:41 coppro: because my gcc can't, and my gcc is just a regular one, like the regular clang you build in step #1 15:56:53 elliott: why can't it? 15:56:58 coppro: resulting programs segfault 15:57:05 Oo 15:57:44 coppro: plus -nostdlib -nostdin -Lblahblah -Iblahblah blahblah/{crt1.o,libc.a} is a bit of a mouthful. it is possible i did something wrong out of laziness :) 16:02:51 -!- Sasha has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:04:26 elliott: well, clang won't compile uclibc anyways :( 16:04:41 stupid inline assembly 16:04:54 coppro: I am not that hopeful that pcc will compile uClibc either. :) 16:05:02 coppro: wait, clang supports inline asm right? 16:05:14 elliott: yeah, but there are some weird gcc-only magicks 16:05:23 I imagine pcc will choke on them too 16:05:25 coppro: you can disable them 16:05:29 in the menuconfig 16:05:36 at the cost of some speed, but what's that for anti-gcc purity? 16:05:36 too many questions 16:05:49 coppro: you have to make menuconfig to use uclibc anyway :) it makes some silly decisionsb y default 16:05:51 *decisions by 16:06:01 it can't decide whether the default config is for desktopish things or embedded devices 16:07:32 I am pretty sure that I can't avoid binutils :( 16:15:52 Almost half of the people got the true/false The string "syf" matches the regular expression "sn?yf" wrong 16:17:12 /usr/bin/gcc -c -I/home/elliott/kitten/buildroot-2010.08/output/host/include -I/home/elliott/kitten/buildroot-2010.08/output/host/usr/include -DIN_GCC -DCROSS_DIRECTORY_STRUCTURE -W -Wall -Wwrite-strings -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes -Wcast-qual -Wold-style-definition -Wc++-compat -Wmissing-format-attribute -pedantic -Wno-long-long -Wno-variadic-macros -Wno-overlength-strings -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -I. -I. -I/home/elliott/kitten/buildroot 16:17:12 -2010.08/output/toolchain/gcc-4.4.4/gcc -I/home/elliott/kitten/buildroot-2010.08/output/toolchain/gcc-4.4.4/gcc/. -I/home/elliott/kitten/buildroot-2010.08/output/toolchain/gcc-4.4.4/gcc/../include -I/home/elliott/kitten/buildroot-2010.08/output/toolchain/gcc-4.4.4/gcc/../libcpp/include -I/home/elliott/kitten/buildroot-2010.08/output/toolchain/gmp/include -I/home/elliott/kitten/buildroot-2010.08/output/toolchain/mpfr/include -I/home/elliott/kitten 16:17:13 /buildroot-2010.08/output/toolchain/gcc-4.4.4/gcc/../libdecnumber -I/home/elliott/kitten/buildroot-2010.08/output/toolchain/gcc-4.4.4/gcc/../libdecnumber/dpd -I../libdecnumber /home/elliott/kitten/buildroot-2010.08/output/toolchain/gcc-4.4.4/gcc/gcov-dump.c -o gcov-dump.o 16:17:28 coppro: Unix and C, aren't they so simple and lean and wonderful and crisp? 16:17:28 I'd spam elliott in relatiation, but... 16:17:33 :p 16:21:05 "Tinycc can already rebuild itself (for x86 and arm targets), and has previously built a modified subset of an older (2.4) linux kernel. I'm upgrading it to work on more hosts (such as my x86-64 laptop), support more targets (x86-64, mips, powerpc...), and to build more software (especially a current unmodified 2.6 Linux kernel). 16:21:05 This project is on hold. I need to replace its code generator with TCG from QEMU, and break it up into a swiss-army-knife binary that can be called as "cc", "ld", "as", "strip", and so on, as appropriate." 16:21:09 http://www.landley.net/code/tinycc/ ... but he gave up 16:26:33 -!- Zuu has joined. 16:39:18 Is there a concept of smallest regex that matches all and only strings within a set of strings? 16:39:41 probably 16:41:53 coppro: probably? 16:42:06 elliott: I imagine it exists 16:42:11 coppro: imagine what exists? 16:42:13 oh right 16:42:14 Sgeo etc. 16:42:18 oh 16:43:20 -!- coppro has set topic: Number of times elliott has been confused because he /ignored Sgeo: 3 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 16:43:33 names 16:44:27 -!- elliott has set topic: Number of times elliott has been confused because he /ignored Sgeo: 3 | Number of times elliott has avoided banging his head against a brick wall because he /ignored Sgeo: countless | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 16:45:06 priceless imo 16:45:53 * Sgeo pushes elliott's head against a brick wall 16:46:20 ll 16:46:22 *lol 16:46:49 priceless imo 16:46:51 what's priceless 16:47:29 It's a more recognizable word for what you meant. You know the MasterCard commercials... then again, it's not like number of times confused is a price 16:47:58 I'd say that was a Captain Obvious thing, but since elliott didn't get it 16:49:31 coppro: oh you mean the topic? 16:49:36 "priceless" makes no sense in that context 16:50:02 echo "Welcome to Buildroot" > /home/elliott/kitten/buildroot-2010.08/output/target/etc/issue 16:50:37 *ugh* and i'm left with a useless pile of disorganised software 16:56:10 coppro: HAHAHA IT WORKED FUCK YOU 16:56:45 elliott: Sgeo explained it... oh wait 16:57:01 coppro: increment the counter and you die :) 16:57:08 coppro: I assume it's a mastercard ad reference 16:57:16 coppro: but, uhh, "priceless" makes no sense there. 16:57:29 -!- Gregor has set topic: Number of times elliott has been confused because he /ignored Sgeo: 3 | Number of times elliott has avoided banging his head against a brick wall because he /ignored Sgeo: countless | Number of days without oerjan's passionate embrace: 19 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 16:57:59 -!- elliott has set topic: Number of times elliott has been confused because he /ignored Sgeo: 3 | Number of times elliott has avoided banging his head against a brick wall because he /ignored Sgeo: countless | Number of days without oerjan's passionate embrace: 19 | Number of days since the topic last changed: 39 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 16:58:20 -!- elliott has set topic: Number of times elliott has been confused because he /ignored Sgeo: 3 | Number of times elliott has avoided banging his head against a brick wall because he /ignored Sgeo: countless | Number of days without oerjan's passionate embrace: 19 | Number of days since the topic last changed: 39 | Number of days the channel has been logged in the new clog directory: See http://tunes.org/~nef/log. 16:58:23 aww 16:58:28 -!- elliott has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D: 34. 16:58:41 -!- elliott has set topic: 42: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 16:58:58 -!- Sgeo has set topic: 42: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | number of times elliott has changed the topic: countless. 16:59:17 -!- Sgeo has set topic: 42: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | number of times elliott has changed the topic: countless (not technically). 16:59:23 -!- elliott has set topic: ASIEKIERKA FOREVER | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 17:00:54 -!- Sgeo has set topic: ASIEKIERKA FOREVER | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | amount of topic spam: uncountably infinite. 17:01:13 Obviously, that's a deliberate lie. Then again, so is infinite 17:01:27 -!- Gregor has set topic: Welcome to #esoteric, the international hub for the occult, voodoo, crystal healing, esoteric topics in computation and programming languages, magick, astrology and spiritual projection | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 17:01:37 Gregor: That upsets ais523 :P 17:01:39 You don't upset ais523. 17:01:44 E_DONTCARE 17:01:45 -!- elliott has set topic: praise be unto ais523 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 17:01:54 Gregor: WE CAN'T GO ON WITHOUT OERJAN *OR* AIS523 17:02:29 -!- Gregor has set topic: Welcome to #esoteric, the international hub for the occult, voodoo, crystal healing, esoteric topics in computation and programming languages, magick, astrology and spiritual projection | Praise be unto the enlightened one, Zendu, who currently possesses the mind and being of ais523 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 17:02:47 -!- elliott has set topic: THERE IS NO AIS523. THERE IS ONLY ZUUL. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 17:03:03 I THINK I WIN OK 17:03:04 00:00:05 elliott (for log reading): yellow text: "NP is not in P!" XD link <-- link how? 17:03:08 -!- Gregor has set topic: Welcome to #esoteric, the international hub for the occult, voodoo, crystal healing, esoteric topics in computation and programming languages, magick, astrology and spiritual projection | Praise be unto the enlightened one, Zenduul, who currently possesses the mind and being of ais523 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 17:03:10 Vorpal: link to whatever page had that 17:03:11 elliott, it was on the screen in minecraft 17:03:14 ohh 17:03:27 -!- elliott has set topic: THERE IS NO ZUUL. THERE IS ONLY GREGOR'S UNWASHED BEARD. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 17:03:27 ah the update was release 17:03:30 released* 17:03:38 -!- elliott has set topic: THERE IS NO ZUUL. THERE IS ONLY GREGOR'S UNWASHED BEARD. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 17:03:53 Dude. 17:03:56 I can't grow a beard. 17:04:00 Gregor: PRECISELY 17:04:12 Gregor: All purple bananas are poisonous. All Gregor's beards are unwashed. 17:04:23 elliott, on the minecraft wiki version history. "Known bugs: Pressing F4 spawns a portal to the Nether near the player's location. This is probably debug code that Notch forgot to remove before the release." 17:04:25 XD 17:04:29 Vorpal: Useful! 17:04:37 elliott, a bit like cheating though 17:04:43 Vorpal: Probably near = nearest multiple of 8. 17:04:56 possibly 17:04:56 Vorpal: Since otherwise you could get overlapping portals by making one, moving to the right a little bit, and making another. 17:05:07 also texture pack support h,m 17:05:08 hm* 17:05:09 Both would go to the same place; where would you end up if you went into the single Nether one? 17:05:11 (Or would they overlap?) 17:05:38 Vorpal: 17:05:39 elliott@dinky:~/kitten$ ./buildroot-2010.08/output/staging/usr/bin/x86_64-unknown-linux-uclibc-gcc -static hello.c -o hello 17:05:39 elliott@dinky:~/kitten$ ls -lh hello 17:05:39 -rwxr-xr-x 1 elliott elliott 11K Nov 10 17:05 hello 17:05:56 Haven't configured uClibc much or anything, and it's typical bloated gcc code. But I'm going to use this to bootstrap pcc and uClibc. 17:05:58 :) 17:06:52 "Still, two more weeks to try to finish stuff up, so I'm building packages as fast as I can. One of them is gnu libiconv. Its configure stage says: 17:06:52 checking for iconv... (cached) no, consider installing GNU libiconv" 17:07:02 lawl 17:07:27 If it was ghc, telling you to install ghc... that wouldn't be a lie. 17:07:32 (At least SBCL can build with CMUCL and CLISP.) 17:07:36 (And others, I think.) 17:08:16 elliott, "near" seems to be "on top of you" 17:08:23 Vorpal: xD 17:08:27 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 17:08:33 elliott@dinky:~/kitten/pcc/pcc$ CC=$HOME/kitten/buildroot-2010.08/output/staging/usr/bin/x86_64-unknown-linux-uclibc-gcc LDFLAGS="-static" ./configure --prefix=$HOME/kitten/stage1 17:08:36 elliott, or rather: around you 17:08:47 So you end up... inside the portal? 17:08:54 /home/elliott/kitten/buildroot-2010.08/output/staging/usr/bin/x86_64-unknown-linux-uclibc-gcc -DLIBEXECDIR=\"/home/elliott/kitten/stage1/libexec/\" -DGCC_COMPAT -DINCLUDEDIR=\"/home/elliott/kitten/stage1/include/\" -DPCCINCDIR=\"/home/elliott/kitten/stage1/lib/pcc/x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu/0.9.9/include/\" -DPCCLIBDIR=\"/home/elliott/kitten/stage1/lib/pcc/x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu/0.9.9/lib/\" -Dos_linux -DTARGMACH=amd64 -Dmach_amd64 -I../.. -I../ 17:08:54 ../os/linux -I../../mip -I../../arch/amd64 -g -O2 -Wall -Wmissing-prototypes -Wstrict-prototypes -Wshadow -Wsign-compare -c cc.c 17:08:56 Dear god. 17:09:05 ./mkext 17:09:05 make[2]: ./mkext: Command not found 17:09:06 LULZ 17:09:28 Protip: Use LDFLAGS 17:09:34 * elliott puts -static in CFLAGS 17:10:16 pcc compiled! 17:10:31 BUT WILL IT BLEND^Wwork with uClibc? 17:10:40 elliott: LDFLAGS is a wonky concept in modern times anyway; are ldflags the flags passed to ld, or are they flags used for linking? Since they don't accept the same input, it's a sticky situation. There's no "correct" use of LDFLAGS. 17:10:48 Gregor: Indeed. 17:10:50 huh, why did this one back to earth spawn deep below the ground 17:10:52 Gregor: Did I mention fuck software? 17:10:55 I thought they spawned on the surface? 17:10:59 ("Software that FUCKS!") 17:11:00 elliott: (Literally) 17:11:12 Yes, I mention-fucked software. 17:11:44 I... fucked it with... mentions. 17:14:56 elliott@dinky:~/kitten$ ./stage1/bin/pcc -nostdinc -nostdlibs -I/home/elliott/kitten/buildroot-2010.08/output/toolchain/uClibc_dev/usr/include -I/home/elliott/kitten/buildroot-2010.08/output/toolchain/gcc-4.4.4/include -L/home/elliott/kitten/buildroot-2010.08/output/toolchain/uClibc_dev/usr/lib hello.c -o hello 17:14:57 /home/elliott/kitten/buildroot-2010.08/output/toolchain/uClibc_dev/usr/include/stdio.h:34: error: cannot find 'stddef.h' 17:14:58 LOLZ 17:15:13 elliott@dinky:~/kitten/buildroot-2010.08/toolchain$ find . -name stddef.h 17:15:13 elliott@dinky:~/kitten/buildroot-2010.08/toolchain$ 17:15:15 LOZL 17:15:32 Oh, it's a Linux include :P 17:23:50 Oh 17:23:53 -nostdlib, not -nostdlibs 17:24:51 elliott@dinky:~/kitten$ ls /home/elliott/kitten/buildroot-2010.08/output/toolchain/uClibc_dev/usr/lib/ 17:24:51 crt1.o crti.o crtn.o libc.so libm.so 17:24:52 fffffffffffff 17:25:27 ./stage1/bin/pcc -nostdinc -nostdlib -static -I/home/elliott/kitten/stage1/lib/pcc/x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu/0.9.9/include -I$TC/uClibc_dev/usr/include -I$TC/linux/include/linux -L$TC/uClibc_dev/usr/lib hello.c $TC/uClibc-0.9.31/lib/libc.a -o hello 17:25:29 When in doubt, cheat. 17:25:34 elliott@dinky:~/kitten$ ./hello 17:25:34 Hello, world! 17:25:34 Segmentation fault 17:40:33 aaaargh I think these portals are cross connected 17:41:13 as in, if I go through A in nether and then back I end up at B. If I go through B in nether and back I end up at A 17:41:49 :D 17:41:53 Vorpal: that is AWESOME. 17:41:58 Vorpal: CAN I HAVE THE UPDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 17:42:00 D 17:42:08 * elliott mauled by a wild pack of bears 17:43:38 elliott, upd? 17:43:42 Vorpal: 8 17:43:47 what do you mean 17:44:04 I was saying "can I have the update" which you have stated you won't give; it was therefore a joke :P 17:44:06 * elliott buys Minecraft 17:44:15 ah 17:44:18 Vorpal: Quick, copy your jars away so you can have portal-spawning action when it's fixed. 17:44:58 Vorpal: Holy shit, the Minecraft purchase page is in Swedish X-D 17:45:33 * elliott fixes 17:47:19 Vorpal: Give me a good reason not to set up an OpenGenera partition. 17:47:50 elliott, you mean.. native? 17:47:57 elliott, which page is in Swedish? 17:53:31 Hm; I also built two portals in the real world -- for faster traffic between my two buildings -- and even though they've spaced pretty far apart, something like at least a hundred steps, they both mapped to the same portal. But for me it works so that if I go into Nether from either, I get out of the single portal, but if I go in, I always end up in just one of the portals, the one I made first. 17:54:00 So as a fast-traffic system, it only works unidirectionally. 17:54:01 Thank you for purchasing Minecraft! Your status should update soon, or within a week if you paid by e-check. 17:54:01 If it doesn't, send me an email (include the transaction ID and username) and we'll sort it out. 17:54:05 Vorpal: The PayPal page, by default. 17:56:22 Vorpal: Yay! It works! 17:58:44 Vorpal: All I need now is a better graphics card to go with it. :p 17:59:51 Nether is cool. 18:02:01 Vorpal: fancy rendering is actually quite fast for me 18:10:55 `echo How slow am I today? 18:11:14 How slow am I today? 18:11:24 `echo How slow am I now? 18:11:26 How slow am I now? 18:11:53 Vorpal: 1. Find tiny little rock -- well, grass patch -- in a little passage of water between two islands 18:11:58 2. Put all your blocks down on one square 18:12:00 3. Night time 18:12:02 4. SEA TOWER SHELTER 18:12:29 5. Watch spiders and shit on the islands below 18:13:29 Vorpal: I'm going to F4 in the day on top of this tower :) 18:13:49 elliott, hm 18:14:18 (The shelter thing actually works well, but you have to find a square of buildableness on water close to wherever you are now) 18:14:19 mhm 18:14:39 WhatTF is so compelling about Minecraft anyway. 18:14:40 You can't have said mhm to what I just said, you said it right as I did :P 18:14:44 Gregor: You know Lego? 18:14:54 elliott: Yes, they're delicious. 18:15:17 Gregor: Now imagine doing Lego with huge, life-sized blocks in an endless interesting pretty sandbox. 18:15:19 elliott, did you know that furnaces continue to operate while you close the dialog for them? 18:15:24 Gregor: Also, monsters. And you can dig. 18:15:29 elliott, meaning you can run several at the same time 18:15:36 Vorpal: I haven't done furnaces yet :P 18:16:25 I think the creepers have all figured out that I'm in the water 18:16:53 elliott, also wrt running game while tabbed away: open inventory, furnace or crafting bench then just move pointer out of the window 18:17:20 Vorpal: I've been opening inventory and then alt-tabbing away, yes. But it's hard to see what's going on if you do that (say, watching stuff at night). 18:17:50 elliott, well I'm indoors and running 6 furnaces in parallel atm... 18:29:08 In multiplayer games, you can press 't' to open the "talk dialog", which is just a prompt at the bottom of the screen: that doesn't obscure things so much than inventories/furnaces/such. 18:29:20 But t doesn't do anything in a single-player session, so it's no help there. 18:29:29 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:29:40 fizzie: Now how do I make nights go faster? 18:29:54 -!- madbr has joined. 18:30:07 I don't know: I'm sure there's some sort of a hack for that. 18:30:27 I usually just do some mining at night: it's dark under-ground anyway. 18:30:38 fizzie: I'm on top of a pole. :p 18:32:21 Hey, someone finally got around to making an Emacs-esque thing that actually has a real browser in it. (And IRC too; it seems to embed gtk stuff.) In Haskell! http://www.flickr.com/photos/48809572@N02/ Bit strange though. 18:32:28 Still ... tempting ... 18:33:02 I wonder how expensive chip pins were in the 90s 18:33:29 Vorpal: totally gonna spawn a portal on this pole now 18:33:40 like, if you make your mem bus 32bits instead of 16bits, that's 16 more pins of cpu and 16 more dram pins and 16 more copper tracers etc 18:33:45 Vorpal: Suddenly, nothing happened :P 18:33:53 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:33:54 Vorpal: OMG 18:33:59 Vorpal: I just made a portal appear on top of another portal. 18:34:07 Vorpal: Step 1. Go up a tall pole. Step 2. Press F4 a lot. 18:34:49 (but then again you have twice the ram bandwidth...) 18:36:17 Vorpal: Want screenshots? 18:38:39 Vorpal: 18:38:43 http://imgur.com/8C2v8.png 18:38:43 http://imgur.com/El0iP.png 18:38:49 http://imgur.com/CU5CA.png 18:38:53 http://imgur.com/z03kU.png 18:38:55 fizzie too. 18:39:16 Eventually they started spawning right next to my pole (on water, even?) and then one spawned on top of me and I walked off the pole to my death by mistake. 18:40:00 * Gregor still has no comprehension of what the appeal of this game is. 18:40:08 it's like lego 18:40:13 I've been told that. 18:40:36 I was never much for legos unless I had something very utilitarian to do :P 18:40:52 Gregor: Well, you could drum up a fake sense of superiority to all the Lego fans or you could just accept that it appeals to everyone else* but you. 18:40:55 *for some definition of everyone else 18:40:56 dunno, it's creative, open ended, looks nice 18:41:10 madbr: Has GODDAMN TERRIFYING SPIDER HISSES. 18:41:11 I prefer a fake sense of superiority. 18:41:21 not if you play multiplayer 18:41:33 let's wait for OpenMinecraft 18:42:00 There are enemy-spawners in multiplayer too -- in dungeons -- and the enemies they create are unkillable, except by fire. 18:43:23 fizzie, is it a bug? 18:43:53 hm 18:43:56 Yes, a very general sort of bug, the server doesn't track health for anyone. 18:44:00 So the players are unkillable too. 18:44:02 ah 18:44:30 fizzie, so the enemies cause no real harm then 18:45:40 Creepers still blow stuff up. 18:45:43 That can be annoying. 18:46:18 so can players with tnt :D 18:46:22 fizzie, obsidian. I'm making the lower parts of the walls of this fort I'm working on in obsidian 18:46:40 fizzie, only week point now is the doors 18:46:56 hm not sure how to deal with that 18:47:02 Obsidian is a bit boring to mine for. 18:47:10 Well, doors don't work in multiplayer either. :p 18:47:31 fizzie, true, it takes ages 18:47:37 fizzie, also I play locally 18:47:54 Do creepers blow up iron doors? 18:47:59 no idea 18:48:14 fizzie, so far I used peaceful mode because I have been learning how the game works. 18:48:39 -!- augur has joined. 18:48:46 fizzie, seems TNT is able to blow it up 18:48:53 Then creepers will too, I guess. 18:48:55 let's wait for OpenMinecraft 18:48:56 fizzie, indeed 18:49:02 I've done a bit of obsidian farming, but that's pretty slow too. 18:49:08 Unlike you, nooga, we're really not that concerned about the price of four packs of cigarettes. 18:49:23 Or at least I'm not. 18:49:48 Vorpal: Stacked a portal on top of a portal yet? 18:49:58 I'm trying to get one close to me so that I can see what happens if you go into an airportal. 18:50:01 Spawn in the Nether air? 18:50:11 Probably it just maps to a single Nether portal. :/ 18:50:49 Netcraft is currently in development, btw 18:51:25 elliott, no I don't want a silly looking game world :P 18:51:33 " Is there a concept of smallest regex that matches all and only strings within a set of strings?" <<< you are given a finite set of strings, and you ask whether there's a smallest size of regex that can be used to match exactly those strings? 18:51:36 coppro: MineBSD is dead, Netcraft confirms it. 18:51:40 elliott, I actually play in a serious way 18:51:46 Vorpal: Suuure you do. 18:51:47 elliott: ... MineBSD??? 18:51:52 fizzie: You don't know that! 18:51:54 elliott, I plan, construct, build and so on. 18:51:56 bbl food 18:51:57 or are you hoping for a minimality result like the one for DFA's 18:51:58 Gregor: Yes. It's BSD by Minecraft players. 18:52:05 lololol 18:52:21 So, BSD implemented in a buggy Java framework? :P 18:52:30 where can I find info on designing a cpu instruction set 18:52:32 * coppro had to google it so that he could be 100% sure it doesn't actually exist 18:52:49 Gregor: Since when is it buggy? 18:52:58 madbr: Look up the details on MIPS' instruction set. Expand. 18:53:10 fizzie: Interesting choice of portal placement -- it seemingly ate up some of my huge tower and put a portal there. 18:53:16 Well, it's close to me. 18:53:18 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 18:53:27 elliott: A friend of mine told me that he checked for exception handlers and MineCraft catches an obscene number of NullPointerExceptions. 18:53:36 *Minecraft, whatever 18:53:43 gregor: doesn't the MIPS need cache to run fast 18:53:51 I can think of a billion reasons for that and they're all to do with third-party libraries, Gregor :P 18:53:53 Netcraft is implemented mostly in C, but with C++ to interface with Bullet 18:53:59 is/will be 18:54:06 madbr: All real CPUs need a cache to run fast. 18:54:06 i had a dream that Gregor was in turku, and we agreed to meet, he said "you are the only pervert from the internet i'm ever going to meet irl" 18:54:31 madbr: this is because they're lame 18:54:42 they can't do quantum either 18:54:44 No, I meet lots of perverts I know from the webertubes. 18:54:58 gregor: yes 18:55:13 fizzie: Okay, gone in an airy one and arrived at a Nether portal. 18:55:22 (btw, quantum computing is insane. And awesome. And insane. etc.) 18:55:28 * Gregor vaguely wonders if JSMIPS would run faster with some kind of caching :P 18:57:12 gregor: hmm 18:57:32 Gregor: Wouldn't that just come out to an array access to cache an array access? :P 18:57:47 elliott: YES. 18:57:47 Unless you have 32 thousand variables or so. And even then it'd be variable access vs. array access. :P 18:58:37 In fact it would be more like array access to cache /map/ access. 18:58:53 Since my vmem ended up having to be a map. 18:58:58 how hard to design are caches anyways 18:59:31 madbr: You lurched wildly from "instruction set" to "actual chip" here :P 18:59:40 well 19:00:13 it's hard to design an instruction set that runs fast if you don't know what sort of memory architecture you're dealing with :D 19:00:22 what is netcraft 19:00:24 ? 19:00:48 netcraft = gratis minecraft 19:00:55 who does it? 19:01:19 a bunch of guys here 19:01:24 gregor: my goal would be something that can do fast resampling 19:01:25 who 19:01:32 I predict a 30% chance of actually getting something decent 19:01:42 nooga: a bunch of people 19:01:47 for stuff like texture mapping, music playing... 19:01:58 who is in this bunch then? 19:02:07 just zeeze guyz, you know? 19:02:21 why do you care so much> 19:02:22 like, if you can do fast enough resampling and multiplication and mixing, you don't need any real sound hardware 19:02:22 ? 19:02:52 i'm joking 19:03:01 madbr: Can't help ya :P 19:04:16 like, that's the problem with amigas, 286s, 386s... it has to load every instruction from DRAM and you have extra wasted instructions for managing the loop, incrementing variables etc 19:06:45 whereas RISC instruction set makes plenty sense when the loop instructions are all cached, the DRAM access patterns come out in blocks which is ideal for stuff like EDO (ie on a Pentium or something like that) 19:08:10 but if you don't have cache, instructions like add register, [memory] make sense 19:08:51 coppro: cloning minecraft shouldn't be hard 19:08:59 or even weird string instructions like STOSB 19:09:02 nooga: yes it should 19:09:06 minecraft is pretty complex by now 19:09:17 like what? 19:09:19 crafting? 19:09:22 ... 19:09:24 red stone logics? 19:09:28 Vorpal: please list the things you can do in minecraft to nooga 19:09:33 infinite, procedural maps? 19:09:53 carts & tracks? 19:09:59 minecraft does infinity really dumb-like 19:10:11 coppro: it's been made less dumbly as of recently, no? 19:10:13 nooga: making a good procedural map generator isn't easy. especially biomes. also, multiplayer 19:10:19 nooga: also, good caverns and shit. 19:10:19 elliott: by necessity, smoewhat 19:10:28 nooga: also, the things you list aren't exactly trivial. 19:10:29 it is 19:10:33 coppro: smoe what? 19:10:34 gregor: Mostly I'm hesitating between 16bit design where you know how much cycles everything takes so you can play off that, and with lots of Amiga-like effects but there's less memory bandwidth 19:10:37 OR 19:10:42 nooga: no, it isn't; the old minecraft generators are not nearly as good as the new ones 19:10:47 bunch of CAs 19:10:53 and you're done 19:11:05 * Gregor lawls at reading nooga's line as madbr's line. 19:11:19 lool :D 19:11:38 :) 19:11:40 elliott: the server originally just retained the whole thing in memory 19:11:50 so if you went farther and farther, it would just slow down and slow down 19:12:00 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:12:02 or 32bit-ish design with something like fast-page or EDO dram and a frame buffer 19:12:08 My understanding is that optimizations have been made, but this is still fundamentally a problem 19:13:35 Paging would help with that if it wasn't Java 8-D 19:14:10 nooga: maybe you could use sand automata for the beaches? 19:14:21 netcraft's approach could still be exploited, but is far less dumb 19:14:31 what's his approach 19:14:43 basically it stores the generator, the seed, and a diff 19:14:57 so simply venturing out into infinity leaves no trace in memory 19:15:30 (and I assume the diff is appropriately compressed so the only way to run up the memory usage is to actually make a large number of changes) 19:15:31 but if things are forgotten, a lot of the funness of the game is forgotten too 19:15:43 oklopol: no, changes are retained in the diff 19:15:47 oh ohh 19:15:52 yeah sry i stupidet 19:17:36 hi oklopol 19:17:41 hi cheater99 19:17:58 how are things? 19:18:04 well, fine i guess 19:18:19 i got my maturity exam thingie done for my bachelor's 19:18:26 so now i can switch to math 19:18:28 ... "maturity exam?" 19:18:31 :) 19:18:56 that's what they call it, i don't know what it's official translation is 19:19:04 definitely not that one 19:19:05 :D 19:19:37 in britain it's a-levels 19:19:55 it's this simple test where they check you did your bachelor's yourself, and know finnish. 19:20:05 or the language the thing was written in 19:20:05 coppro: that's what i would do 19:21:17 also i'm gonna get my first publication i think, but it's just proceedings 19:21:49 u? 19:22:00 still a perverted faggot? 19:22:01 coppro: i would be fun too make slopes as seen in TTD 19:22:38 oh that's not a-levels then 19:22:42 yeah 19:22:56 i think they call it review 19:23:03 did you think of matriculation exam or smth? 19:23:06 i don't know what a-levels is 19:23:12 a-levels is at the end of high school. 19:23:19 yeah that's called matriculation here 19:23:19 oklopol: a-levels = high school exams, as I understand it 19:23:23 ok 19:23:31 it's called diploma exams in my home province 19:23:46 so who's seen this new lang 19:23:50 http://gosu-lang.org/comparison.shtml 19:24:06 I thought that was a joke 19:24:36 hah, I like the last one 19:24:44 wtf happened to my ignores? 19:24:46 oh, damn 19:24:54 also lol at 'reified generics' 19:24:57 missed a * after cheater 19:25:00 sounds like a wonderful way to make generics suck more 19:25:05 yeah he's sneaky like that 19:25:11 oklopol: absolutely. 19:25:15 i hadn't changed my nick in months 19:25:24 cheater99: sure, but you'll have to pay me 19:25:27 coppro: I am tired of tables that have all "Y"s on the product in question. 19:25:36 coppro: could there be a more obvious example of bias? 19:25:41 elliott: yes 19:25:42 and yet alise keeps on taking me off ignore and then pretending she forgot to add some bit. 19:25:42 Put some shit you don't have yet in there! 19:25:47 they could also have all Ns for the other stuff 19:25:48 coppro: "Gosu rawks"? :P 19:25:57 oklopol: a-levels = high school exams, as I understand it 19:25:57 yeah 19:26:13 elliott: the server originally just retained the whole thing in memory 19:26:16 who plays minecraft on servers 19:26:17 (losers) 19:26:23 it's paged out to disk now :p 19:26:31 coppro: with "chunks" 19:26:35 basically it stores the generator, the seed, and a diff 19:26:35 so simply venturing out into infinity leaves no trace in memory 19:26:37 still bad 19:26:37 you're very wrong 19:26:41 it now saves the chunks to disk 19:26:43 oh 19:26:45 netcraft 19:26:45 right 19:26:52 coppro: plz see http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Chunks 19:27:14 elliott: right 19:27:17 it does that chunking thing 19:27:20 cheater99: WOW that's where i draw the line! 19:27:21 but if you leave a chunk 19:27:26 that chucnk stays around 19:27:28 entirely intact 19:28:02 Sgeo: yes 19:28:17 Sgeo: how insightful 19:28:22 oklopol: line? 19:28:32 oklopol: what's going on? 19:28:43 this is going all wrong. 19:28:51 It amuses me greatly that fuel efficiency can be measured in square meters. 19:28:52 Sgeo: absolutely very insightful; cheater99: you too 19:28:58 u confyouz me. 19:29:04 (1L/100km = 0.01m^2) 19:29:12 :D 19:29:20 @ pikhq 19:29:28 wait 19:29:34 right 19:29:36 ofc 19:29:50 Vorpal: please list the things you can do in minecraft to nooga 19:29:51 hm 19:29:54 too long 19:29:56 Hooray, base SI units. 19:29:58 help 19:30:00 are there any ops 19:30:02 elliott, I delegate this to you and to fizzie 19:30:08 Vorpal: no :P 19:30:12 elliott is msging me with cusswords 19:30:14 :( 19:30:26 cheater99: i took you off ignore. nice try 19:30:27 what was Bullet? 19:30:33 so, if you took a cylinder containing the fuel of the length you can drive, it'd be the cylinder's thingie area 19:30:37 elliott: i know 19:30:40 nooga: physics engine 19:30:51 My understanding is that optimizations have been made, but this is still fundamentally a problem <-- I believe it will unload chunks that are some distance away 19:31:00 so actually i don't think it's at all funny anymore 19:31:01 coppro: is netcraft closed-source? 19:31:28 because that's what's being measured, "how much fuel you need to move one differential forward" 19:31:31 btw 19:31:32 nooga: source will be released when it's ready for first release, is my understanding 19:31:41 netcraft's approach could still be exploited, but is far less dumb <-- netcraft? 19:31:42 has anyone ever run a turing machine on a GOL? 19:31:49 Vorpal: a clone of minecraft 19:31:53 coppro: good to know they're, uh, being creative 19:31:56 coppro: even in their naming 19:32:14 i've seen some GOL's that had the name "turing machine" etc, of course the proof eluded me. i'm not much into GOL. 19:32:17 elliott, oh. googling netcraft just gives netcraft.com results. Which are not very relevant here 19:32:20 personally i couldn't have thought of "Let's make a game that's like Minecraft... and... yes." 19:32:36 elliott, got a link to netcraft? 19:32:49 it's people at coppro's uni 19:32:52 demonstrating how creative they are 19:33:25 cheater99: they were turing machines 19:33:42 Erm, wrong order of magnitude. 19:33:44 0.01 mm^2. 19:33:52 Or 1*10^-8 m^2. 19:33:58 demonstrating how creative they are <-- XD 19:34:10 oklopol: have you ever looked into the problem of running turing machines on GOL's more in-depth than just looking at GOL presets? 19:34:20 Vorpal: well could you have thought of the idea "it's like minecraft, but we take the mine bit off and add net"?! 19:34:45 cheater99: certainly not 19:34:50 elliott, so no mining? 19:34:54 GOL*'s*? 19:34:55 what 19:34:59 ;P 19:35:00 's GOL then 19:35:10 oklopol: JCGOL? 19:35:23 Vorpal: no you just net things up 19:35:25 like a butterfly net 19:35:31 elliott, ah 19:35:31 and then craft them into hideous corpse art 19:35:32 john conway's game of life. 19:35:35 NETCRAFT! 19:35:39 i don't know JCGOL, same rules? 19:35:44 Vorpal: (i'm lying) 19:35:44 oh 19:35:47 elliott, like the zombie pigmen ;P 19:35:50 ... Bweheheh. That is, of course, the integral of V(x) from 0 to distance travelled, with respect to x. It makes some amount of sense, too! 19:35:51 Victory! 19:35:58 cheater99: what else is there? 19:36:06 there's only that. 19:36:12 right 19:36:50 anyway, still no 19:37:05 well 19:37:11 it does seem like fairly useful research 19:37:16 i might if there was a high-level explanation, but most of it consists of guns etc so actually you could probably just look at it 19:37:23 well it's really not 19:37:33 i mean 19:37:37 but the thing is the single cells are so very very simple 19:37:46 they're even simpler than transistors you'd think 19:38:08 Erm, no. 19:38:13 don't need address lines etc 19:38:30 they usually just need connection to some neighbour cells 19:38:51 which could mean, you make a cpu which just has those simple cells, and that's that 19:39:03 surely it's interesting, but proofs that things can simulate turing machines aren't usually considered very important 19:39:16 because they can always do that 19:39:27 "always" is a bit much 19:39:41 a rubik's cube can't simulate a turing machine. 19:39:41 yes 19:39:58 i think GOL could be an interesting processor architecture 19:40:09 sure, you need several cells to signify a single bit 19:40:15 but those cells could be so much smaller 19:40:18 well, maybe. probably no 19:40:19 t 19:40:28 like, almost single molecules probably 19:40:37 you're doing a lot of useless stuff, guns and all that, and still the rule is complicated 19:40:57 even wireworld would be better 19:41:33 but you could probably come up with something crazy like say growing peptide crystals where each molecule strand is neatly crafted into the network and represents a single GOL cell. 19:41:41 -!- Zuu has joined. 19:41:56 this is just pure sci-fi, but i wouldn't be surprised if it were possible 19:42:07 in gol, you have signal crossing *everywhere* 19:42:11 btw 19:42:14 ? 19:42:18 what do you mean? 19:42:25 the neighborhood already forces it 19:42:29 ? 19:43:08 cheater99, ... transistors don't need address lines... 19:43:11 well, you know, you can't put down tiles on the plane so that they are gol-connected 19:43:50 RAM needs it 19:44:01 because a's connection to its bottom-right crosses a's right neighbor's connection to bottom-left 19:44:02 Vorpal: minecraft just got updated 19:44:06 Vorpal: wanna bet f4 no longer works? 19:44:24 elliott, well I have a copy, anyway I have heaps of obsidian 19:44:35 Vorpal: no, newer than that 19:44:37 Vorpal: i was thinking of FPGAs there for a second 19:44:37 literally, since today 19:44:48 elliott, I have a copy of the one where f4 works I mean 19:44:50 Vorpal: since normal CPUs are not as programmable as a GOL board 19:44:53 but FPGAs are 19:44:58 right 19:45:08 indeed f4 disabled 19:45:12 cheater99, sure they are. But only during design 19:45:22 Vorpal: wow, there's *two* minepedias... 19:45:24 http://minepedia.net/index.php?title=Main_Page 19:45:29 minepedia? 19:45:34 what's a GOL board? 19:45:42 elliott, that one I haven't seen 19:45:44 game of life board. 19:45:48 me neither 19:46:04 *either 19:46:10 elliott, anyway I get connection error to minecraft.net 19:46:21 i did but don't now 19:46:21 what, someone did a game of life simulator with lots of parallelism on some custom arch? 19:46:21 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:46:23 overloaded server i guess 19:46:24 * Vorpal clicks play offline 19:46:24 hi ais523 19:46:41 madbr: no 19:46:55 madbr: we're considering gol AS the arch 19:49:38 "here is the kicker, lava produces heat, energy at a certain frequency that is harmful to us, just as we can see light because we perceive things through this 4x box, of 3 dimensions of space, and 1 dimension of time. 19:49:38 Quantum, we understand that waves and particles are one in the same, that particles are waves. So lets just say that monsters are made of of particles that are exist in a certain frequency that is not effected by the same frequency as heat." 19:49:39 what 19:49:42 (comment on minecraft blog) 19:50:47 what 19:51:06 "Now, you might think that is silly, because it is heat. I mean, every burns at a high enough temperature, right? wrong. Since heat is bound by the existence of time, thus the bound by the speed of light and all the energy required by it. As things get hotter and hotter, eventually they start producing gamma rays and such, etc, but it gets to a point where the energy required to make more heat goes off to infinity when you get temperatures that h 19:51:06 ave energies that have frequencies near the speed of light, so thus, things that are made up of particles that are smaller than light can perceive and such, can be non effected by heat, as heat will have to break out of the existence of time before it can effect these particles... but if it breaks out of time, then it is not longer heat, per say." 19:51:12 "So lets just say that monsters are made up of atomic, subatom, etheric, and subetheric particles that exist on a frequency where, quantumly, they are visible by light, and can effect physical objects, but their physical existence is outside the bounds of our reality and heat do not effect them. 19:51:12 I am not saying this is the reason, I am just saying that when you look into things from a quantum mechanical level, everything becomes waves and probabilities. everything is possible. =) 19:51:14 enjoy, minecraft is awesome." 19:51:16 well that made sense! 19:51:38 i have a better explanation: you can punch trees, therefore lava doesn't harm ghasts Q.E.D. 19:51:42 elliott: you know, if he'd just said that monsters were transparent to infrared, it would have been a lot simpler 19:51:51 ais523: heh 19:52:05 even though that reasoning doesn't really deal with conducted or convected heat... 19:52:08 hi ais 19:52:53 ais523: it doesn't help his quantum pseudo-reasoning that you can bash them with swords, either :) 19:53:40 -!- augur has joined. 19:53:48 that was the biggest bundle of crazy nonsensicality i've seen this week 19:53:55 i've been ircing too little :( 19:54:02 Vorpal: HAHA -- one of the possible names for Nether was "Norway" 19:54:03 heh 19:54:10 oklopol: :D 19:54:14 elliott, :D 19:54:45 Vorpal: ,D 19:55:13 Vorpal: http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/dx88i/notch_if_you_read_this_please_leave_the_fire/c13mm12?context=1 19:55:30 oklopol, ,D 19:56:37 "I think you should call is Steve." "That would be the funniest damn thing he could do. Construct menacing portal...enter menacing portal....'You have entered....STEVE"" 19:56:49 THIS IS AN ULTIMATE GAME 19:57:08 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSOQGazo7Oo 19:57:52 oklopol: ? 19:58:06 oh, I see 19:58:16 I'm still on just-online mode, when I try to do about 8 things at once and so does my computer 19:58:52 ais523: YOUR COMPUTER WILL RUN FASTER WITH KITTEN 19:59:14 ais523: It's got static linking. That's what plants crave! 19:59:15 `translate Hey guys, mimi fasta kutafsiri amri. 19:59:16 Hey guys, I fixed the translate command. 19:59:22 `wl 19:59:29 You get NOTHING! You LOSE! Good DAY sir! 19:59:30 `wl sv smorgasbord 19:59:33 Smörgåsbord 19:59:35 Gregor: Translate is LAME :P 19:59:39 wl 4 eva 19:59:47 `translateto sv smorgasbord 19:59:49 smörgåsbord 20:00:06 `translateto sv elliott's translation method is so rife with lame. 20:00:09 Elliotts översättning metoden är så fulla av lama. 20:00:12 `translateto it Dirty Hungarian Phrasebook 20:00:13 Dirty frasario ungherese 20:00:17 `wl en it Dirty Hungarian Phrasebook 20:00:18 You get NOTHING! You LOSE! Good DAY sir! 20:00:21 ...? 20:00:27 elliott: is static linking actually faster? 20:00:28 `wl en it Dirty_Hungarian_Phrasebook 20:00:29 computer translation is getting pretty scary, because they are making less and less errors in grammar, but just... completely misunderstand everything 20:00:30 Il frasario ungherese 20:00:34 Gregor: HAHA IW IN 20:00:35 *I WIN 20:00:38 Anyway, translatefromto actually uses the Google APIs now :P 20:00:39 Yours doesn't translate "dirty" 20:00:39 so it's like reading the translation of a native retard 20:00:42 No more trying to parse HTML. 20:00:51 ais523: the linker is a lot simpler, so it's faster, and starting executables is much faster 20:01:01 ais523: (since it doesn't have to load all the libraries) 20:01:01 I'd expect it to be slower because it couldn't keep libc in the cache 20:01:08 although I suppose it depends on how often it context-switches 20:01:15 ais523: Uhh... you do realise Linux does sharing of all the libcs? 20:01:15 perhaps it starts faster and runs slower? 20:01:20 `wl en pl dirty hungarian phrasebook 20:01:22 You get NOTHING! You LOSE! Good DAY sir! 20:01:24 You never have two copies of libc functions in RAM with static linking. 20:01:25 elliott: indeed, but how can it do that with static linking? 20:01:27 ah 20:01:28 ;D 20:01:39 that's pretty ingenious, actually 20:01:47 sort-of dynamic unstaticing 20:01:51 ais523: I'm not sure at what granularity Linux does it, but it's good enough 20:02:19 ais523: but yes, linker is a lot faster, starting executables is a lot faster, runtime is the same really 20:02:22 *linking 20:02:44 "You never have two copies of libc functions in RAM with static linking." Well this smells like total BS. 20:03:13 well function may be false 20:03:17 but there is most definitely sharing. 20:03:24 I know that Plan 9 does pervasive sharing 20:03:32 Aren’t statically linked executables consuming more memory? 20:03:33 We believe that due to the small size of the base system the opposite will be the case. First of all, the kernel will load each static executable’s .rodata, .data, .text and .comment sections only once for all instances into memory. Second, because each static binary has only been linked with the object files necessary, it has already been optimised at linkage time for memory consumption. When loading it, we don’t require the kernel to map al 20:03:33 l dependent dynamic libraries into memory from which our binary might only use 5% of the functions they provide. So, in reality, the memory footprint is becoming less, and the dead code hold in memory (or paged) reduces overall consumption. This is also true for programs, like surf, which don’t use all webkit/gtk/glib functions. 20:03:36 --sta.li 20:03:50 ok, so less sharing than plan 9 20:03:53 but still 20:04:01 ais523: also, more will fit into cache as the libc is a lot smaller than glibc :p 20:04:17 http://9fans.net/archive/2002/02/21 plan 9 sharing 20:04:25 Yes, it will share each INSTANCE of the SAME program, but it won't share bits of it across programs. 20:04:26 elliott: the plan 9 statement there seems to imply that it shares .rodata and .text, etc., for two programs with the same executable, not any two programs 20:04:29 Gregor: right 20:04:37 ais523: right 20:04:37 sharing between two different programs would be rather harder 20:04:40 i do recall systems with more sharing 20:04:58 especially as, given static linking, the functions aren't going to be in the same relative positions in memory in the two programs 20:05:06 ais523: anyway, i don't know of any reports saying static linking has slower runtime performance. 20:05:21 ais523: and it seems unlikely to me, especially when your libc is *much* more compact than glibc 20:07:06 maybe i should read linux from scratch :) 20:07:20 hmm, really, there should be a two-tier libc 20:07:28 ...? 20:07:32 one that does everything that C99 and POSIX require, the other for all the GNU extensions 20:08:18 elliott: Not much of LFS is actually special information for building a base Linux system, BTW. 20:08:26 ais523: you can do the latter with gcc: just append "|| rm *.c" to the command line, without the quotes 20:08:30 pikhq: I can't parse your sentence 20:08:41 elliott: Most of it is just "here's how you build foo". 20:09:09 elliott: Basically, after you've got the toolchain up and running you're just installing exceptionally common dependencies. 20:09:20 (e.g. Perl) 20:10:17 pikhq: ISTR some part of recent perls depend on static linking :) 20:10:19 *dynamic linking 20:10:27 elliott: I don't see how deleting all C files if the compile fails would help 20:10:33 elliott: And LFS has you build a conventional glibc system. 20:10:37 pikhq: right. 20:11:03 ais523: it removes the GNU dependencies from all the .c files in the directory 20:11:14 meanwhile, a sign of Slashdot strangeness: I've just metamoderated two of the comments I've just moderated 20:11:15 (assuming your compile is failing because of missing gnu extensions) 20:11:32 in other words, I'm currently keeping tabs on my own behaviour 20:11:41 elliott: that's not what I want 20:11:47 ais523: Who moderates the moderatormen? 20:11:52 the GNU extensions are often useful, but they should be in a separate library 20:11:59 that's different from arbitrarily deleting programs that use GNU extensions 20:12:06 usually the gnu extensions are useful ideas, implemented terribly and with a terrible api :) 20:12:11 nobody really uses them apart from gnu though. 20:12:17 (especially as gcc is entirely capable of compiling programs that use them...) 20:12:29 elliott: the course on C I'm teaching uses GNU extensions 20:12:35 not by my choice, incidentally 20:12:39 ais523: ugh 20:12:42 it makes a lot of other dubious decisions, too 20:12:56 I think GNU have managed to successfully embrace-and-extend C 20:13:00 elliott: Linux's sharing works *precisely* the same as Plan 9's. The only stuff that isn't shared (and even that, I'm pretty sure, is COW) is stuff that's writable. 20:13:05 pikhq: Ah. Okay. 20:13:15 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:13:26 ais523: too many people are complacent with bad design and tactics just because they're perceived as supporters of freedom 20:13:43 who calls out GNU for encouraging people to go beyond the standards and write code that isn't portable to non-GNU systems? 20:13:46 nobody 20:13:55 And it functions just the same for dynamic libraries. The only gain dynamic libraries get you is that there's only a single copy of each symbol floating around, rather than a single copy per program using it. 20:14:03 elliott: I'm not even sure /how/ to call them out 20:14:08 pikhq: Right. But if the symbols are tiny, it doesn't make any sense. 20:14:15 ais523: you can't, really; any anti-gnu site would just be dismissed as FUD 20:14:25 ais523: I have become rather cynical towards GNU. 20:14:35 erm 20:14:38 pikhq: Right. But if the symbols are tiny, it doesn't make any difference. 20:14:56 pikhq: For instance, a system running dynamically-linked glibc executables will use the same or more memory than one using statically-linked uClibc executables. 20:14:58 Which makes whether or not you get a benefit from dynamic or static linking, well, complex. 20:15:08 elliott: the advertising clause in the GPLv2 is pretty bad (not nearly as bad as the one in the GFDL...) 20:15:19 ais523: it has an *advertising clause*? 20:15:23 pikhq: You get benefits, just maybe not memory ones. 20:15:37 elliott: if you modify a non-interactive GPLv2 program to become interactive 20:15:43 then it has to put up a GPL blurb when it loads 20:15:44 elliott: Well, yes. I was just concerning myself with the memory and disk usage for this. 20:15:45 ais523: ah, yes 20:15:50 ais523: does v3 have that? 20:15:53 I can't remember 20:15:55 let me check 20:16:05 pikhq: Disk space is definitely a win, measure static uClibc vs. dynamic glibc sometime. (Okay, browsers are bigger.) 20:16:38 pikhq: But still, I have disk. And RAM. Do you? 20:16:39 elliott: If you've got a lot of static binaries, there *might* be a benefit from dynamic linking. 20:16:58 Using the precise same libraries, of course... 20:16:59 ais523: have you read the new chapters in "learn you a haskell"? 20:17:00 elliott: yes to some extent, but it's been toned down from v2's 20:17:06 cheater99: not recently; I read the one about zippers 20:17:23 Glibc ends up producing gigantic dynamic libraries compared with uClibc's static libraries, of course. 20:17:27 ais523: it has monads now! 20:17:37 An interactive user interface displays "Appropriate Legal Notices" to the extent that it includes a convenient and prominently visible feature that (1) displays an appropriate copyright notice, and (2) tells the user that there is no warranty for the work (except to the extent that warranties are provided), that licensees may convey the work under this License, and how to view a copy of this License. If the interface presents a list of user 20:17:38 commands or options, such as a menu, a prominent item in the list meets this criterion. 20:18:19 if you're interested, that clause (in v2 and v3) has only triggered twice in me writing GPL programs: C-INTERCAL and jettyplay (both of which were based on previous GPL code) 20:18:23 "prominent" 20:18:58 C-INTERCAL handles it with a license blurb when starting up the debugger; jettyplay has a comment about the GPL as the default status bar when it loads 20:19:10 ais523: how long did it take to write c-intercal? 20:19:18 cheater99: I didn't write it from scratch 20:19:25 I think esr wrote the original version in a weekend, but it didn't actually work 20:19:31 I've spent years on it, but not continuously 20:19:35 yea but what you were doing with it 20:19:37 ok 20:19:41 ais523: If you are the copyright holder, you can add an additional permission allowing for you to not do that with GPLv3. 20:19:53 does anyone know if xchat can be set to ignore mentions of a name too? 20:19:59 or at least addressed messages 20:20:03 pikhq: I'm not the only copyright holder for either of the programs in question 20:20:12 C-INTERCAL has loads of copyright holders, jettyplay has 3 IIRC 20:20:36 (the copyright holder on a GPLv3 work may add any number of additional permissions; these permissions can be removed by anyone at will.) 20:20:52 oh, 5 20:21:39 12:11:59 that's different from arbitrarily deleting programs that use GNU extensions 20:21:39 12:12:17 (especially as gcc is entirely capable of compiling programs that use them...) 20:21:46 not library extensions, if you don't use glibc 20:21:48 the bzip2 library was originally BSD, but I relicensed it as GPLv2 to simplify the license for the program as a whole 20:22:11 elliott: not to mention, it deletes all C files in the current directory, rather than the files you were compiling, which might or might not be in the current directory 20:22:20 also, the files you're compiling need not end with the .c extension 20:22:24 ais523: sry will never joke ever :P 20:23:04 incidentally, GPLv3 is /much/ saner than GPLv2, despite its many detractors 20:23:14 I discovered this due to reading GPLv3 incessantly while testing azip 20:23:25 (it's one of the two test files I'm using) 20:24:08 ais523: CAN I HAZ AZIP LOLRZL 20:24:16 elliott: oh right, I got it working again 20:24:20 let me see if I got unazip working too 20:24:31 ais523: Yeah, the GPLv3 is genuinely a better license, FUD aside. 20:24:46 are licenses that important 20:25:05 madbr: they can be, it depends on what you're doing 20:25:05 madbr: yes. 20:25:07 madbr: Because we live in a society where copyright law has gone crazy: YES. 20:25:41 There isn't much more important than freedom. (Have I really turned into a freetard? Oh well, at least I still dislike the GPL.) 20:25:46 elliott: I'm just testing it atm, I'll send it to you if it's working, and otherwise check what's wrong 20:25:58 ais523: i didn't expect you to actually send it, but sure :P 20:26:12 anyway, I can't see much of a reason why you'd choose GPLv2 over GPLv3, except compatibility with other GPLv2 things, which is pretty large 20:26:19 A programmer is basically forced to be a bit of a lawyer to not get sued for all the money in this day and age. 20:26:21 I can see why you'd choose, say, BSD3 over GPLv3 20:26:33 BSD3 is obsolete :) 20:26:42 what was it obsoleted by? 20:26:44 BSD2 20:26:51 I think I disagree, there 20:27:29 I'd also say that BSD2 was obsoleted by ISC but there you go :P 20:27:36 The endorsement clause of BSD3 is a noöp. 20:27:45 depends on which country you're in, I think 20:28:26 ais523: Berne convention, I think 20:29:05 elliott: http://pastebin.ca/1987512 20:29:05 Yeah. 20:29:16 try using the -t option to see what it's doing 20:29:41 And nations that haven't signed that don't recognise foreign copyright at all, so it's a moot point. 20:29:43 ais523: your typical copyright terms, I presume? (I can't do anything without asking you) -- just checking :P 20:29:52 well, apart from modifying it locally of course... 20:29:59 elliott: copyright currently undecided, thus it's all-rights-reserved by defaut 20:30:01 *default 20:30:21 if it actually turns out to be useful, I'll license it under something more permissive 20:30:28 * pikhq should eat 20:30:36 ais523: ugh, now I have to write a shell one-liner to split that into two files, as is my duty 20:30:38 note: statistically speaking, it's likely to infringe at least 1000 US patents 20:30:51 due to being a) software, b) a compression algorithm 20:31:15 elliott: it was a shell one-liner to join them into one file 20:31:22 I love using more for things like that 20:31:30 ais523: you used *more* for that? 20:31:32 I've done things like "more * | less" before now 20:31:48 elliott: that's what more does if you give it multiple files and stdout isn't a terminal 20:33:18 ais523: now I just need unmore! 20:33:20 ais523: ooh! 20:33:29 ais523: I know! I'll use sed to turn it into a shell script that outputs those two files! 20:33:37 (what's the sed to merge the next line with this one again?) 20:33:40 er, keeping the \n in the buffer 20:34:18 ais523: so have you made an azip quine yet? 20:36:15 ah, N is the command I wanted 20:39:28 elliott: no, I haven't tried 20:39:31 pikhq: gah, uClibc doesn't support leap second 20:39:32 *seconds 20:39:39 ais523: how can you make me code sed like this 20:39:42 *write 20:39:54 it'd be pretty awkward due to the way the encoding changes all the time 20:39:59 as bad as trying to write a bzip2 quine 20:43:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:44:16 That topic confuses me immensely. 20:44:36 ais523: I give up; I'm extracting the files manually. 20:47:14 elliott, hm 20:47:28 Vorpal: ? 20:47:40 ais523: filebin converts to DOS line endings, jesus christ 20:47:54 elliott, wrt last highlight of me :P 20:47:57 Vorpal: i forget 20:48:06 ais523: can't you just uuencode a tarball to sprunge.us? :) 20:48:11 elliott, reddit thread 20:48:16 Vorpal: ah 20:48:29 Vorpal: specifically, the post and notch's reply 20:48:33 (which i highlighted) 20:49:28 Vorpal: btw, why do I get &e0 when i die without points? 20:49:30 strange way of saying 0 :P 20:49:48 -!- digimunk has joined. 20:50:07 * elliott wonders whether anyone other than dreamhost employees ircs from dreamhost 20:50:12 elliott, "&e0"? 20:50:17 elliott, also uh points? 20:50:29 Vorpal: umm yes you get told your # of points when you die 20:50:54 I am not an employee of dreamhost 20:50:55 elliott, http://i.imgur.com/YDI84.png (no I didn't take this one, but abuse of F4!) 20:51:01 seen it 20:51:07 digimunk: why would you irc from dreamhost? 20:51:19 I tunnel out of work through dreamhost 20:51:25 Vorpal: http://i.imgur.com/yBRWd.png 20:51:26 digimunk: heh 20:51:42 but it is banned from a lot of servers ;) 20:51:49 elliott, issue is they probably all go to the same portal at the other end 20:51:52 and it is fairly useless 20:51:54 Vorpal: yeah :( 20:52:03 digimunk: just use tor :p 20:52:06 banned from even more! 20:52:26 tor's a bit slow 20:52:45 http://i.imgur.com/YDI84.png < p0rtals? 20:53:01 ais523: do you know which of -O3/-Os is faster? 20:53:09 nooga: "p0rtals"? seriously? you replace o with 0? in 2010? 20:53:11 :p 20:53:15 digimunk: more than a bit :) 20:53:16 HAHA 20:53:29 r0de3ntz live! 20:53:35 2010 20:53:53 Vorpal: http://i.imgur.com/F8mY0.png this guy did what i did but moreso and, uh, creepers 20:55:21 elliott, anyway creating portals from the real world seems to like to end up in the same place. Need to create all but the first portal from within nether, or it doesn't work well 20:55:24 which is very backwards 20:55:31 Vorpal: heh 20:55:36 since distances are shorter in nether, not the other way around 20:55:46 Vorpal: yes, but one nether pixel = 8 world pixels 20:55:49 elliott, and quite far from each other 20:55:57 so if you create nearby portals in the real world 20:56:02 they can all map to a single nether point 20:56:04 like 100 blocks in nether 20:56:11 Vorpal: http://i.imgur.com/Q3z6K.jpg portal bridge 20:56:16 elliott, dude I walked about 300 tiles in the real world 20:56:21 Vorpal: true. 20:56:32 elliott, I doubt that bridge is very walkable! 20:57:06 Hmm, is there an easy way to stop Minecraft updating apart from disconnecting? 20:57:21 elliott, no clue 20:57:28 elliott, entering wrong username? 20:57:31 apart from iptables :p 20:57:36 what is nether? 20:57:59 Vorpal: indeed 20:58:01 nooga: hell 20:58:18 I just saw someone say elsewhere that providing free education for all is selfish elitism. 20:58:21 i mean what is it in Minecraft 20:58:36 This annoys me in a poorly-expressable way. 20:58:59 nooga, it is a hell like word in minecraft 20:59:06 nooga, elliott did answer you 20:59:25 and why 1 nether pixel = 8 rw pixels? 20:59:38 Phantom_Hoover: why is it selfish elitism? 20:59:55 oklopol, because the stupid should be allowed to go to university too! 21:00:27 and if they can get there for free, they can't go? 21:00:33 i'm not sure i'm following the logic 21:00:41 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:00:57 oklopol, no, the person said something idiotic about the "less intellectually able subsidising the educated elit 21:00:58 elliott, isn't it more fun to do the portals the proper way anyway? 21:01:07 *elite." 21:01:22 ah 21:01:29 okay i get it 21:01:32 The fact that they were saying this on the internet was lost on them. 21:01:46 elliott, btw I think the posting times on twitter are way off... http://twitter.com/notch the top one said "less than 20 seconds" half an hour ago for me... 21:01:50 and it still does 21:01:54 I cleared cache and such... 21:02:00 Phantom_Hoover: lost on me too 21:02:17 Vorpal: server-side cache presumably 21:02:26 oklopol, huh 21:02:28 *? 21:02:31 here too though 21:02:45 Phantom_Hoover: where was it 21:02:53 and why 1 nether pixel = 8 rw pixels? <-- well blocks, not pixels. And it is to use it for fast travel... 21:02:55 elliott, elsewhere. 21:02:58 Vorpal: what editor have you been using to look at the level? 21:03:00 that works on linux 21:03:03 Phantom_Hoover: i don't get how it's ironic to say that on the internet 21:03:04 Phantom_Hoover: that's not an answer 21:03:07 if that's what you meant 21:03:13 oklopol, guess who made the internet. 21:03:16 elliott, you mean the map I posted before? was a map viewer, not an editor 21:03:21 Clue: it wasn't a hairdresser. 21:03:25 Phantom_Hoover: people who paid for their uni courses? 21:03:30 Or hairdressers. 21:03:32 Vorpal: well ok, that. 21:03:46 in any case i don't think that's all that ironic 21:03:52 elliott, it is kind of hugely slow once the world becomes larger than about 20 MB 21:03:53 maybe it's a bit 21:04:01 as in, taking minutes to load 21:04:25 elliott, anyway, it was "Minutor" (see http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Programs_and_Editors#Map_Viewers) 21:04:32 I was more asking if there was a name for the size of the smallest regex, I guess 21:04:43 Sgeo: there is not afaik 21:04:47 elliott, I tried "Minecraft X-Ray" too, but kind of useless 21:04:49 it's not unique 21:04:52 -!- Zuu has joined. 21:04:53 slow and hard to use 21:05:04 Well, smallest regexes.. 21:05:17 elliott, using a dedicated mapper (generates images basically) might work better 21:05:17 The min() of all the sizes of all relevent regexes 21:05:24 (ab)*a and a(ba)* for instance 21:05:38 Sgeo: yeah no, i don't see how that would be very useful anyway 21:05:46 Vorpal: heh only linux-compatible alpha *editor* is shareware 21:05:49 really it's rather coincidental which ones are minimal 21:05:50 well, more like donateware but whatever 21:05:59 elliott, indeed, and requires python 2.6 21:06:06 Vorpal: not 2.7? 21:06:09 elliott, indeed 21:06:15 elliott, it has *.pyo files 21:06:16 Vorpal: lame 21:06:16 Illustrating the difference between, say, elliott and eliott vs elliott and ehird 21:06:18 Vorpal: uhh 21:06:20 you can rm the .pyos 21:06:25 elliott, no, there are no .py 21:06:26 Vorpal: oh. 21:06:27 so you can't 21:06:36 Vorpal: what a load of crap. 21:06:38 elliott, anyway, my system has 2.7 so... 21:06:39 well 21:06:43 kind of tricky to use 21:07:01 Although the size of the regex varies directly with the size of the strings, so 21:07:05 wonder if anyone's written docs on the format 21:07:17 elliott, there is on the wiki iirc 21:07:18 also 21:07:20 I guess I sort of wanted a string difference like thing that works on more than two strings to give a single number 21:07:30 elliott, wine + a windows editor might work 21:07:31 also? 21:07:34 worth a try 21:07:34 Vorpal: maybe. 21:07:39 i don't think i care enough to do that 21:07:42 elliott, I'm not really interested in editors though 21:07:54 Vorpal: Bet it'd expect it to be in the Minecraft folder for Windows. 21:08:10 I only want an editor to make the game engine suffer :) 21:08:27 elliott, uh I think it goes into Application Data/.minecraft on windows or something 21:08:39 elliott, presumably you could figure out where wine puts that and then symlink 21:08:45 meh :P 21:08:57 elliott, anyway, saw it listed somewhere on the wiki 21:10:20 :C 21:10:35 CURSE YOU ALL! 21:10:57 i have shit tons of work to do and i'm just sitting here and staring at the terminal 21:11:07 nooga, your own fault 21:11:13 just close the irc client 21:11:27 Vorpal does not understand akrasia 21:11:28 i'm procrastinating 21:12:03 elliott, I'm sure I will once I read the wikipedia article! 21:12:20 besited 21:12:20 Vorpal: [[Akrasia is the state of acting against one's better judgment. Examples of akrasia include procrastination and inability to form strong cooperating communities.]] 21:12:22 it's hopeless 21:12:27 http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Akrasia 21:12:35 if i close the irc client i will move to facebook or some other shit 21:12:37 like digg 21:12:45 digg? haha 21:12:55 i'd laugh even before the upgrade, but seriously? 21:13:01 no 21:13:05 digg = corporate spam site 21:13:06 joking 21:13:09 k 21:13:11 i've never been there 21:13:22 elliott, really? 21:13:23 ;d 21:13:25 I never knew... 21:13:34 Phantom_Hoover: yeah the update ... fucked things up 21:13:38 and caused a mass digg->reddit exodus 21:13:47 Phantom_Hoover: basically stuff is no longer posted by users, it's posted by sites. 21:13:54 that's not strictly true for all cases, but 21:13:58 it's a large part of it 21:14:30 elliott, of course, reddit will go down the bad path at some point too. It is kind of built in in that type of site I think... 21:14:33 It smacks a little of the inability of Facebook users to deal with the change of a single pixel... 21:14:55 Phantom_Hoover: lol 21:15:01 Phantom_Hoover: the fact that some complaints are bullshit 21:15:01 Phantom_Hoover, hm? 21:15:06 does not imply that all complaints are bullshit, ok? 21:15:14 i remember the whole last.fm upgrade bullshit. it wasn't like that 21:15:18 digg is, quite literally, a graveyard. 21:15:27 OK, but what broke? 21:15:31 Kevin Rose's brain 21:15:54 Phantom_Hoover: let's put it this way: a few days after the Digg upgrade, the majority of front page links linked to *reddit threads* instead of the link directly. that's literally how much it had fallen, the top links were all people linking to reddit 21:16:04 HA 21:16:08 great\ 21:16:13 now my gf asks me out 21:16:17 elliott, OK, I just want to know what made people leave/ 21:16:24 forwardslashes did 21:16:30 how could I resist 21:16:44 Phantom_Hoover: i can't find a summary of the changes, and don't have the patience to blab about it 21:16:49 as i've never been a digg user 21:17:15 I only thought it was trivial since that's how the changes seemed when I looked it up. 21:17:25 Some minor graphical redesigns, and some downtime. 21:17:56 no, nothing like that 21:18:02 the whole submission structure was changed 21:18:13 Vorpal: i have pumpkins everywhere. wat 21:19:27 Vorpal: btw realworld->nether translation isn't literal; it won't spawn you on lava, for instance 21:20:35 Vorpal: or on water, the other way 21:21:12 Vorpal: or on water, the other way <-- on ice though 21:21:40 elliott, what it should do is spawn you on a small platform 21:21:57 like 3x3 21:22:05 or maybe 5x5 or such 21:22:10 with the portal in the middle 21:22:21 and a few tiles above the lava 21:22:25 or at sea-level (if water) 21:23:10 Vorpal: Fun thing to do: Get to a place where F4 will spawn you into a portal. Do so. Step back a bit so you don't get sucked in. Press F4 a lot. You get stuck in block and lose health rapidly, but then jumping somehow evaporates it and you end up in a box of portals. 21:24:11 elliott, I don't want to mess up my map I told you 21:24:14 better screenshot it 21:24:31 Vorpal: So make a new world :P 21:24:37 elliott, meh 21:25:12 -!- TLUL has joined. 21:25:41 TLÜL 21:26:07 n00ga 21:26:16 Vorpal: It's awesome because you can run quickly through the portals, but if you end up at a dead end... NETHER 21:26:34 elliott, screenshot I told you 21:26:38 elliott, also nether is no dead end 21:26:52 screenshotted but nowhere to put them, feel free to offer scp 21:26:53 elliott, with a pickaxe you can get elsewhere and make a portal and go back 21:27:20 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:27:25 elliott, what about http://imageshack.us/ ? 21:27:45 btw holding F3 shows stats 21:28:00 elliott, also I can offer scp but only if you set up an ipsec tunnel with X.509 certs to me. Send me your local root CA cert ;P 21:28:00 Vorpal: i use imgur.com, which is like imageshack.us but not run by an asshole. but it's tedious to upload multiple images 21:28:17 btw holding F3 shows stats <-- well known 21:28:27 just sayin' 21:28:45 elliott, you can lock it on by pressing alt after iirc 21:28:46 or something 21:28:48 nether transition should be smoother :( 21:28:59 elliott: Fortunately, it seems very likely that the leap second will be abolished. 21:29:25 pikhq: really? 21:29:27 elliott, should yes 21:30:59 elliott: The IERS vote on the issue will be finished in 2011. If 70% of member nations agree, then the leap second will cease to be. 21:31:13 pikhq: I *like* the leap second. 21:31:41 It's more pain than it's worth, IMO. 21:31:57 The main problem with it is that it's not algorithmically computable. 21:32:44 Instead, you just have about 6 months notice about whether or not there will be one. 21:33:56 -!- madbr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:34:47 pikhq, simulate the people who tell you about it. 21:36:00 Phantom_Hoover: Impractical without a very good means of measuring DUT1. 21:36:07 (the difference between UT1 and UTC) 21:36:16 pikhq: simulate the universe 21:36:19 see what they say in that universe 21:36:21 TADA 21:36:31 elliott, way to steal my idea. 21:36:36 elliott: No, it's much easier than that... 21:36:40 mine was better poophead 21:37:53 elliott: You need to simply be able to observe UT1 (the mean solar time at the meridian through Greenwich), and see if the difference between UT1 and UTC would go above or below 0.9s in the next 6 months. 21:40:23 Suppose we get rid of the leap second. How much time until it becomes an issue? I suppose technically it's not determinable given our lack of ability to actually determine long enough in advance when leap seconds should be, but an approximation 21:42:20 pikhq: If Greenwich ever gets nuked we are so fucked. 21:42:30 pikhq: Congratulations! You are now the Kitten toolchain consultant. 21:42:59 Huh. 21:43:09 pikhq: Your job is to get a working pcc/uClibc where the uClibc was compiled with pcc and the pcc was compiled with pcc and statically-linked with uClibc -- on Linux. 21:43:15 pikhq: Good luck! 21:43:16 Actually, the Prime Meridian no longer goes directly through the Greenwich observatory. 21:44:00 -!- madbr has joined. 21:45:49 pikhq: I said good luck! 21:46:16 elliott: Nein. 21:46:20 pikhq: YEIN 21:48:42 The Prime Meridian is 5.31 arcseconds east of the meridian going through the transit circle at Greenwich, rather than going straight through. 21:48:53 Because of an accident when setting up GPS. 21:48:58 :D 21:49:30 And they chose to change the definition of the Prime Meridian rather than change the satellites. 21:50:06 Is that within walking distance? 21:50:08 Ah, sorry, when setting up TRANSIT, which was the very first satellite navigation system. 21:50:31 Sgeo: It's 102.5 meters at the latitude of the Royal Observatory. 21:52:09 pikhq: what's your rate for getting insane linux toolchains to work 21:52:22 i'll pay up to 3p a day 21:54:16 elliott: 10g of ¹⁹⁷Au per hour. 21:54:35 pikhq: Done. Get workin' 21:54:45 I doubt you can pay that. 21:54:59 pikhq: Sheesh, I might charge for Kitten if nobody else does any drudge work at all :P 21:56:11 In that case, I should charge for PSOX! 21:57:38 pikhq, any reason you don't want the other isotope in your gold? 21:58:30 * Sgeo double-checks something 21:59:57 * Sgeo fails to find it online 22:01:02 pikhq: and THEN what would you do! 22:01:06 -!- elliott has left (?). 22:01:59 -!- elliott has joined. 22:02:00 whoops 22:02:09 so can gparted resize partitions mounted on / yet? 22:02:15 or is linux still lagging behind os x in that aspect :) 22:03:48 pikhq: and if you say use LVM i'll kill myself 22:04:28 Swap: 7431 1 7430 22:04:31 * elliott gets rid of swap 22:05:05 7 gigs should be enough for a kitten base install methinks 22:05:06 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 22:05:32 elliott, I demand that I get Kitten for free? 22:05:43 *. 22:05:44 Phantom_Hoover: That's not a question. 22:05:48 I know that. 22:05:53 Phantom_Hoover: Well, you have to do drudge work, then. 22:06:02 But I missed a question mark a while ago. 22:06:17 * Phantom_Hoover does not do drudge work. 22:06:24 Phantom_Hoover does not get Kitten for free! 22:06:25 I do get others to do it! 22:06:31 Phantom_Hoover: Not successfully. :P 22:06:59 pikhq: NOW IS YOUR CHANCE TO CHANGE THE HISTORY FUTURE: JFS or btrfs? 22:07:10 Gregor, fizzie, Vorpal, drudge. 22:07:16 Would I be able to do any of the druge work? 22:07:21 I mean, if I wasn't ignored? 22:07:24 Sgeo, you can be the threat. 22:07:28 Phantom_Hoover: pinging people like that is irritating and will get you ignored 22:07:37 Drudge, or I shall get Sgeo to SING! 22:07:53 elliott, OK, I'll stop. 22:07:57 Sgeo: maybe, have you ever compiled anything ever? 22:08:08 I think so 22:08:15 Make that a yes 22:08:20 Sgeo: on linux? 22:08:24 Yes 22:08:40 Sgeo: do you have linux installed? 22:08:57 Not at this very moment, no, but I do have access to my school's Linux system 22:09:30 Sgeo, it takes, what, 5 minutes to install it/ 22:09:33 Sgeo: Have you ever debugged problems with the C stdlib initialisation files (crt1.o) etc. on Linux? 22:09:33 *? 22:09:38 Phantom_Hoover: but it doesn't run active worlds! 22:09:42 also more like 10 22:09:44 elliott, OF COURSE! 22:09:59 I've WRITTEN crt before. 22:10:09 elliott, no :( 22:10:10 Phantom_Hoover: You won't do drudge work. 22:10:15 Not terribly difficult, but anyway... 22:10:23 Phantom_Hoover: (Drudge work = compiling uClibc and pcc twice or so, sorting out problems.) 22:10:31 Phantom_Hoover: (This involves recompiling pcc with pcc and uClibc.) 22:10:41 Phantom_Hoover: (Also probably compiling a cross-compiling gcc, so that uClibc works.) 22:10:43 And V*rpal just said that it didn't ount. 22:10:47 -!- Sasha2 has joined. 22:10:51 elliott, ah. 22:10:52 *count 22:10:58 what didn't count? 22:11:58 Sgeo: Then I can't think of anything you can do except test it, which would involve... installing it. 22:12:02 Also using it. 22:12:03 My crt.o. 22:12:52 Phantom_Hoover: Why not? 22:12:54 Since it was for Microcosm, and apparently despite the fact that *he had said the ABI was x86-64 UNIX* he claimed that the ABI hadn't been picket. 22:12:56 And not count as what? 22:12:57 *picked 22:13:03 Ah. 22:13:13 Microcosm is just a lame version of my user-space POSIX project, anyway. :P 22:13:36 QUICK 22:13:40 MAKE WORDS WITH TTIASACRMMMILLHTMITEHIT 22:14:21 (Disclosure: I'm doing this for Reddit stuff) 22:15:20 Sgeo: Too wimpy to install it? :p 22:15:34 elliott, maybe over the weekend when I have time 22:15:53 Also, can I install in user-space? 22:16:04 True; terrible Italians always scrape along crevasses. Remember, multi-meters militantly inject legumes litigiously, having tried mayonnaise. I tried eating hare, I think. 22:18:25 Sgeo: ...how the hell would you be able to install in user-space? 22:18:28 Other than, uh, Wubi. 22:18:47 Depends on what exactly is being installed. 22:18:54 OS stuff, obviously not 22:18:59 Sgeo: Actually you'll probably only be able to install from Linux to start with... as I haven't written an installer. 22:19:31 Sgeo: You realise that Kitten is an OS? 22:19:46 Now I do 22:20:35 Sgeo: ... it's a Linux distro. 22:22:31 Sgeo: So, seems I have to look elsewhere for a drudger :p 22:22:41 Phantom_Hoover: So want to do the drudge-work?! That isn't actually drudgy?! 22:22:44 Or just wait until I have some free time 22:23:06 elliott, the maximum amount of work I'm doing is "sh drudge.sh". 22:23:22 Phantom_Hoover: Oh come on, compiling stuff is fun! 22:23:34 elliott, noooooo 22:23:41 ザルゴイットカームズ!ヒーフーウェイツビハインドザワルズ! 22:24:08 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:24:49 pikhq: You get to compile, then! 22:25:43 elliott: sàrukò i'to kâmusù? hî hû uēitu hìhaintò sà warusù? 22:25:49 drgdfg 22:26:03 pikhq, what's this about the loogoid? 22:26:11 pikhq: So, JFS or btrfs, which do you want to see? 22:26:13 Or other. 22:26:22 elliott: Definitely ZFS. 22:26:41 pikhq, also, your vowel extension lines are MISPLACED! 22:26:52 Phantom_Hoover: They're not lines. 22:26:59 They're pikhq's own romanisation scheme. 22:27:05 pikhq: You... do realise that the native ZFS port is not yet released? 22:27:10 pikhq: And FUSE, no. 22:27:16 elliott, that's re his katakana. 22:27:29 pikhq: Oh look: "This project solves the licensing issue by distributing ZFS as a separate kernel module users will have to download and build for themselves." 22:27:35 pikhq: So no, I cannot use ZFS. Pick again. 22:27:48 elliott: I'm aware, I was being unhelpful. 22:27:51 pikhq: [[There's still some major work to be done, so this is not production-ready code. The ZFS Posix Layer has not been implemented yet, therefore mounting file systems is not yet possible; direct database access, however, is. Supposedly, KQ Infotech is working on this, but it has been rather quiet around those parts for a while now.]] 22:27:52 :P 22:28:04 pikhq: I won't even make you work on it! Just offer opinions, dammit :p 22:28:24 elliott: Btrfs seems significantly more awesome. 22:28:53 pikhq: btrfs is also still labelled as "WILL DESTROY YOUR DATA FUCKING FUCK FUCKSHIT", and is not part of any official stable kernel release. 22:29:07 pikhq: Also, btrfs needs a separate /boot. 22:29:10 pikhq, what are you going on about the Loogoid for? 22:29:55 pikhq: Whereas JFS is insanely stable, "fsck" takes less than a second if there's nothing wrong and a second or two for excellent recovery if there is, has many of the advanced XFS features without the unreliability, and is generally awesome. The *single* downside to JFS is that it doesn't support resizing on Linux. IIRC it does on OS/2. 22:30:22 Phantom_Hoover: ... Loogoid? What? 22:30:26 Phantom_Hoover: That was Zalgo. 22:30:32 pikhq, ah. 22:30:40 pikhq: Oh, and btrfs is under Oracle control. 22:30:45 pikhq: And FUCK ORACLE. 22:30:45 Phantom_Hoover: You suck at reading kana, apparently. 22:30:52 elliott: Wait, seriously? Fuck Oracle. 22:30:55 pikhq, I didn't read that... 22:31:03 I got my Japanese friend to do it. 22:31:07 pikhq: Yes; it is an Oracle project. The lead developer works on it at Oracle. 22:31:10 Phantom_Hoover: Then... He sucks. :P 22:31:19 Phantom_Hoover: Or just doesn't handle English-in-kana well. 22:31:27 Very possibly. 22:31:27 (which, granted, is completely screw.) 22:31:30 (screwy) 22:31:32 pikhq: You will now whine about how JFS doesn't support resizing. 22:32:16 elliott: Well, then JFS isn't an option either. 22:33:05 pikhq: Personally the lack of resizing doesn't bother me too much. But obviously it's a deal-breaker for many. So, tell me: what do you suggest? :P 22:33:27 elliott: Resizing is a very nice thing. 22:33:48 Sufficiently so that I consider filesystems not supporting it a non-option. 22:33:50 Resizing? 22:34:01 Phantom_Hoover: Just that. 22:34:09 Being able to resize a partition. 22:34:17 pikhq: Come on then, I'm waiting :) 22:34:46 pikhq: ReiserFS isn't an option for obvious reasons. XFS is a bit prone to data loss, apparently. 22:35:05 pikhq: Apparently Linux supports the FFS BSD filesystem, but really now, no :P 22:35:22 elliott, because it causes uxicide? 22:35:29 Phantom_Hoover: ? 22:35:36 elliott: Namesys is somehow still functioning. 22:35:40 elliott, wificide! 22:35:41 pikhq: Err, no. 22:35:46 Phantom_Hoover: Indeed 22:35:49 pikhq: The future of the company fell into doubt after Reiser was found guilty of murder and announced plans to sell the company to pay for his legal defense.[2] Their website has not been accessible since November 2007. Edward Shishkin, a Namesys employee, was quoted in a January 2008 CNET article as saying that "commercial activity of Namesys has stopped".[3] 22:35:59 elliott: They get funding from DARPA. 22:36:00 pikhq: Namesys is dead, dead, dead and ReiserFS with it. 22:36:03 elliott: Honest. 22:36:15 pikhq: ReiserFS 4 development is still stopped. 22:36:21 pikhq: And I don't want to use ReiserFS, so there :P 22:36:22 elliott: Why Hans hasn't sold it is beyond me. 22:36:33 pikhq: ...can he? He's in jail, you recall. 22:36:36 Wait 22:36:38 elliott: And they're trying to get Reiser4 into the kernel... 22:36:42 pikhq: Also, he's hardly a sane man. 22:36:48 Sgeo: ? 22:36:51 elliott: Yes, you can still sell stock ownership in jail. 22:37:01 pikhq: See my note about his sanity :P 22:37:05 If he was found guilty, what's he hoping for wrt the legal defense? Less jail time or avoiding of capital punishment? 22:37:13 Sgeo: ...he's already in jail. 22:37:29 On September 5, 2008, Hans Reiser arrived at San Quentin State Prison to begin serving his sentence. Reiser tried to appeal his second-degree murder conviction on October 30, 2008. The request was denied by Judge Larry Goodman on November 13, 2008.[50][51] On January 10, 2009, it was reported that Reiser was recovering after having been beaten by several prisoners.[52][53] On January 28, 2009, he was transferred to Mule Creek State Prison.[54] 22:37:31 So what can he be hoping for in terms of legal defense? 22:37:42 Sgeo: ...why would he be hoping for any legal defence at this point? 22:37:47 He confessed, he's in jail, 15 years to life. 22:37:57 "The future of the company fell into doubt after Reiser was found guilty of murder and announced plans to sell the company to pay for his legal defense" 22:38:18 Sgeo: ...not recently. 22:38:21 "Reiser cannot appeal his conviction or sentence as a result of his plea bargain." 22:38:25 Before he confessed, Sgeo. 22:38:41 pikhq: Picked a filesystem yet? :P 22:39:07 elliott: Fuck filesystems. 22:39:20 pikhq: WELL THAT SOLVES THE PROBLEM 22:39:35 ext5 22:39:52 ext1337 22:40:12 The ext series' obsolescence is planned; Ted Ts'o says that ext4 is a stopgap measure, and the future is btrfs. 22:40:28 Therefore ext5 will not exist; ext4 is the last version, before a transition to btrfs. 22:40:37 rename it ext5, plobrem sloved 22:41:05 So not only will we have to time travel, but we'll have to go to a different universe 22:41:07 olsner: Except that all the other ext filesystems are related. 22:41:08 Problem solved 22:41:23 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:41:29 why are there so many linux filesystems :D 22:41:51 Most of the filesystems Linux supports were designed for other OSes... 22:41:52 madbr: there aren't that many. 22:41:53 a lot of them are ports. 22:41:55 most of them even 22:41:58 xfs, jfs: ports 22:42:02 at the very least 22:42:14 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep 22:42:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:42:30 pikhq: Maybe I'll use venti. :P 22:42:52 Ones for Linux in particular are: extfs, btrfs, ReiserFS. That I can think of. 22:42:56 pikhq: Maybe I'll use fossil, I mean. :P 22:43:06 pikhq: You'd need a ported fossil server in your initramfs, and 9P support in the kernel. 22:43:18 pikhq: ext is an extended version of the Minix filesystem. 22:43:19 elliott: :P 22:43:28 pikhq: Wait, seems not. 22:43:37 pikhq: You're right, ext is Linux-specific. 22:43:53 And the other ext filesystems are patches on that. 22:43:57 pikhq: Maybe I'll use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiafs, ext2's competitor. 22:44:08 "The maximum size of a file was 64 MiB and the maximum size of a partition was 2 GiB." 22:44:34 ... Wow, I'm pretty sure FAT16's better than that. 22:44:44 pikhq: Apparently that's *better* than ext. 22:44:47 ext must have been terrible. 22:44:56 No, FAT16 is precisely that. 22:45:01 Heh. 22:45:06 pikhq: ext -- worse than FAT16! 22:45:19 (Or, I guess, it might be the same as ext and have improved other things. Maybe.) 22:45:35 pikhq: If you like specific bootloaders, now's the time to demand one. 22:45:43 (As part of the default package set, that is.) 22:45:50 fat16 handles large files no? 22:45:52 elliott: Eh, Grub2's not bad it seems. 22:45:57 pikhq: Nope. 22:46:04 pikhq: Pick again. (I already know what my favourite is.) 22:46:11 elliott: I don't care that much, to be honest. 22:46:23 pikhq: Correct! The answer is: LILO. 22:46:31 pikhq: I am not joking. 22:46:41 elliott: I mean, a bootloader runs for all of a few hundred clock cycles. Doesn't matter in the slightest. 22:46:50 LIIIIIIIIIIIIILOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 22:47:12 ... Waaaitt. 22:47:23 pikhq: Waaaait? 22:47:26 madbr: FAT16 handles up to 4GB files. 22:47:33 madbr: But only up to 2GB filesystems. 22:47:43 haha, wtf 22:47:49 X-D 22:47:53 pikhq: LIIIILOOOOOOO 22:48:11 Likewise for FAT12, which handles up to 4GB files, but only up to 32MB filesystems. 22:48:19 elliott: The LInux LOader certainly works. 22:48:32 pikhq: It can also chainload! It can even read JFS partitions! 22:48:34 And doesn't do much more than that. 22:48:40 Surely it's just an accidental feature that it theoretically handles files up to that size? 22:48:45 * Sgeo should read the specs 22:49:06 Actually 22:49:15 What's a good first filesystem to read about? 22:49:16 pikhq: http://i.cbsi.com.au/story_media/339303370/slackware-131_7.jpg Doesn't look bad if you ask me. 22:49:20 Sgeo: FFS. 22:49:27 Sgeo: (Not exasperation.) 22:49:39 pikhq: Different design with multiple OSes: http://www.designlegion.com/linux/screenshots/lilobmp.jpg 22:49:53 Sgeo: The file size is stored as 4 bytes. 22:50:06 Sgeo: On all FAT filesystems. 22:51:08 pikhq: Question. Does any filesystem split files into multiple inodes? 22:51:11 Or meta-inodes, whatever. 22:51:59 elliott: Why would it? An inode is just metadata. 22:52:00 So what happens if a Windows user tries to ... oh, FAT 22:52:04 NTFS != FAT 22:52:13 Does anyone still use FAT? 22:52:20 Yes. 22:52:23 But they use FAT-*32*. 22:52:23 Sgeo: Most flash drives. 22:52:26 on my win98 box, yeah 22:52:26 Not -16. 22:52:36 Sgeo: And a lot of consumer electronics. A *lot*. 22:52:37 pikhq: If two files share the same N byte chunk... would be nice to share their storage? Eh, I dunno. 22:52:57 but is the added complexity of that worth it? 22:52:59 elliott, Amiga Fast File System? 22:53:00 elliott: So, you're asking about deduplicative storage. 22:53:02 Or something else? 22:53:03 madbr: Probably not. 22:53:07 Sgeo: Unix/BSD Fast File System. 22:53:12 Sgeo: Wikipedia it. 22:53:26 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_FFS ? 22:53:31 Yes. 22:53:31 ty 22:53:46 Sgeo: Read it all, the history is quite informative. 22:53:58 pikhq: Well, yes. A lookup tree from some hash to where it's stored. Only problem there is that you have to not only do a lookup but then a compare of N bytes to make sure... 22:54:30 -!- cheater99 has joined. 22:54:39 elliott: ZFS. 22:54:53 pikhq: ZFS does that? 22:54:53 (fuck Oracle) 22:54:56 Yes. 22:55:06 pikhq: How big are the chunks? Configurable? (Default?) 22:55:13 (I want some kind of citation before I believe that 4GB file-size limit for FAT12) 22:55:30 olsner: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_Allocation_Table 22:55:33 olsner: table at right 22:55:36 Max file size 4 GB minus 1 byte (or block size if smaller) 22:55:39 for FAT-12, FAT-16, FAT-32 22:55:41 elliott: Filesystem block level. 22:55:48 pikhq: how big are those typically again? 4k? 22:55:55 olsner: so FAT-12 can store 4 GB files but only 32 MB volumes :D 22:55:57 Typically. 22:56:10 elliott: yeah, I saw that, but I want proof that it's also true 22:56:17 olsner: well, imagine if it only used two bytes 22:56:19 olsner: 64k file max 22:56:23 olsner: and a non-power-of-two is ... iffy 22:57:11 a ... non-power-of-two-times-eight power of two 22:57:16 elliott: Buut by default it just trusts the hash. 22:57:21 olsner: wat 22:57:32 (SHA256) 22:57:42 olsner is questioning what's so iffy about 3 bytes 22:57:45 pikhq: Urgh. 22:57:46 -!- TLUL has left (?). 22:57:55 For the size thing 22:57:56 if you mean it goes 2 -> 4 -> 8 bytes, then you have 2^(8*2^n) 22:58:13 olsner: 2^1 = 2. 2^2 = 4. 2^3 = 8 22:58:21 elliott: Though deduplication is not enabled by default. 22:58:35 elliott: And you can tell it to verify a lack of collision with a filesystem option. 22:58:40 pikhq: I can't put my faith in an filesystem that I can't trust to always work if my hardware is OK. 22:58:47 And verification sounds slow. 22:59:03 elliott, see "pig carting" on http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Saddle 22:59:07 sounds fun 22:59:39 elliott: Eh, involves reading or looking in the filesystem cache to verify. 22:59:53 elliott: that's the storage size in bytes, what I referred to was the maximum size you can store 23:00:09 olsner: err, surely it just gives a start pointer and file size 23:00:12 i don't see why it wouldn't 23:00:23 Vorpal: heh 23:00:24 elliott: And it'd have to do a disk access anyways; with deduplication your blocks are reference-counted. 23:00:27 Woohoo1 23:00:35 Sgeo: ...? 23:00:37 Learn You A Haskell now has a chapter on zippers! 23:00:44 fuck. 23:00:51 elliott: also, I'm still talking about the formulas for non-iffy sizes 23:00:56 not about FAT12 anymore 23:00:58 olsner: you confuse me 23:01:02 yes, I do 23:01:07 olsner: i'm saying that 23:01:20 olsner: the maximum file size in these is controlled entirely by the file size field 23:01:26 which any sane person would size as a power of two 23:01:34 in fat, it's 4 bytes. 23:01:42 olsner: a power of two number of bytes, that is 23:01:46 olsner: what's the C type for 3 bytes? 23:02:48 elliott: But in FAT-12 the actual filesystem pointers are 12 bits. I think they were mad. 23:02:55 elliott, there isn't one? 23:02:57 obviously :P 23:02:59 Vorpal: ...no shit 23:03:00 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 23:03:06 elliott, why do you need one? 23:03:07 I'm just saying that if the field size grows as 2^n, the file sizes you can store in that field grows as 2^(8*2^n) 23:03:15 Vorpal: READ CONTEXT OR DON'T REPLY AT ALL FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF 23:03:17 olsner: right 23:03:29 elliott, calm down, after all I did for you 23:03:36 Vorpal: ffffffffff 23:03:48 olsner: or, 2^(2^(n+3)) :P 23:03:53 Vorpal: k :p 23:03:57 elliott: But in FAT-12 the actual filesystem pointers are 12 bits. I think they were mad. <-- um, do they use the remaining 4 bytes up to the 16 byte boundary for anything else? 23:03:57 indeed 23:04:08 Vorpal: No. 23:04:11 Vorpal: THE FIRST FEW BYTES OF THE FILE CLEARLY 23:04:12 :P 23:04:40 pikhq, ... wtf 23:04:49 elliott, well it could be used for flags or some such 23:04:52 Vorpal: 12 bits plus 4 bytes? that's 44 bits 23:04:54 elliott, like "is read only" 23:04:59 olsner, 4 bits I meant 23:05:03 and 16 bits 23:05:17 obviously 23:05:18 vorpal: they pack them together 23:05:20 Vorpal: Erm. Well, yeah, it's not 0-filled after the 12. 23:05:28 pikhq, ah, what is it used for? 23:05:40 madbr, ... what 23:05:44 Vorpal: Depends on where in the structs... 23:05:44 so it codes 2 entries over 3 bytes 23:05:52 madbr, aaaaah 23:06:01 madbr: :D 23:06:17 elliott, actually you can do this in C. bitfield 23:06:22 floppies are nasty 23:06:25 Vorpal: not packing though 23:06:26 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:06:32 Vorpal: All on-disk file pointers are 12 bits, and the whole thing is a bunch of linked lists... 23:06:42 if you use 25% less space for the FAT, you're saving on the reading speed 23:06:42 This looks vaguely like it would benefit from being a monad 23:06:45 Plus metadata. 23:06:51 pikhq, ah 23:07:03 pikhq, as long as they don't cdr-encode XD 23:07:25 pikhq: I am so tempted just to use ext3. 23:07:34 pikhq: Or FFS. 23:07:43 most floppy drives are ridiculously slow 23:08:45 elliott, anything wrong with ext4? 23:09:10 Vorpal: The curmudgeon inside me sees no point to extents. 23:09:19 Vorpal: Or this fancy allocation tricky thingamajig. 23:09:29 elliott: It has benefits. 23:09:36 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c5/E2fsck-uninit.png 23:09:38 Or short fscks. 23:09:42 Fine! ext2. 23:09:50 Keep talkin', keep gettin' my shit. 23:10:48 UFSv2 uses 16k blocks by default cuz its MODERN 23:10:51 also extents 23:10:56 elliott: Okay, eventually we'll have you only supporting FAT12. 23:10:57 elliott, well it is useful when you have huge files 23:11:06 -o optimization 23:11:07 (space or time). The file system can either be instructed to try 23:11:07 to minimize the time spent allocating blocks, or to try to mini‐ 23:11:07 mize the space fragmentation on the disk. If the value of min‐ 23:11:07 free (see above) is less than 8%, the default is to optimize for 23:11:07 space; if the value of minfree is greater than or equal to 8%, 23:11:09 the default is to optimize for time. See tunefs(8) for more 23:11:10 elliott, like virtualisation disk images 23:11:11 details on how to set this option. 23:11:13 Nay, CP/M. 23:11:13 OPTOMISED! 23:11:32 $ sudo mkfs.ufs -J /dev/sda2 23:11:33 elliott, from where is that? 23:11:36 pikhq: Just made your damn decision for you. 23:11:40 Vorpal: mkfs.ufs(8) 23:11:46 pikhq: We're using the motherfucking BSD filesystem. 23:11:48 elliott, ah *bsd again 23:11:56 Vorpal: I'm doing this on Linux though :) 23:12:04 Vorpal: UFS is fully supported in Linux. 23:12:08 elliott, ufs support on linux is read-only iirc 23:12:11 And mkfs.ufs is just the BSD newfs. 23:12:20 Vorpal: Not that I know of. Hell, I just created one in Linux, I should hope it can write it. 23:12:38 elliott, uh, I thought it was badly broken as well. Hm 23:12:58 elliott, and not UFS2 support of course 23:13:02 Vorpal: Yes, UFS2 support. 23:13:07 Or at least, I just created a UFSv2 file system. 23:13:15 Aaand it won't mount. 23:13:20 elliott, as expected 23:13:20 [31980.209605] ufs was compiled with read-only support, can't be mounted as read-write 23:13:22 I told you so 23:13:25 Vorpal: Nope, it does UFSv2. 23:13:27 Vorpal: It can even RW. 23:13:31 Vorpal: It was just COMPILED not to. 23:13:34 FUCK DEBIAN 23:13:45 elliott, the kernel option says "Read write UFS support (DANGEROUS BROKEN!)" or some such 23:13:48 lawl 23:14:04 elliott, I told you it wouldn't work... 23:14:16 Vorpal: Interestingly I don't take your statements as certain fact. 23:14:23 Especially when you put "I thought" in front of them. 23:14:39 pikhq: I might just use XFS and never upgrade it. 23:14:43 elliott, my word is of course law ;P 23:15:16 I think ZFS is probably the coolest file system right now 23:15:37 olsner: ZFS is (1) under Oracle control and (2) unsupported under Linux 23:15:46 yes, unfortunate accidents 23:15:57 -!- digimunk has left (?). 23:15:59 olsner: Not only does the Linux native port lack things such as "mounting a filesystem" (POSIX layer hasn't been implemented), I can never *ship* a kernel with it as that would be a license violation. 23:16:10 olsner: btrfs is also out the window because of Oracle control. 23:16:34 btrfs is oracle-filth? 23:17:05 olsner: yeah -- it's an Oracle "product" and the lead developer works on it at Oracle 23:17:16 oh joy, "Developer: Oracle Corporation" says wikipedia 23:17:31 olsner: even if they don't corrupt it, I'm uninterested in using anything Oracle puts out. 23:18:48 http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/intelligentdesignsort.html 23:18:58 :D 23:19:23 Well, that didn't teach me stuff I didn't know 23:22:32 You are not permitted to learn. 23:22:52 "My fear that Oracle would buy Sun only to let it die are becoming reality. I can't help but envision the corpse of Sun lying inert while a cloven-hoofed Larry Ellison dances around it, cackling -- such a tragedy." 23:24:36 olsner: ...quite the vision 23:25:24 collecting and piling the corpses, dancing around, cackling 23:25:33 hard work 23:25:39 olsner: SO WHICH FISLESYSTEM SHOULD I USE 23:25:55 Sgeo: i'm so sad you won't test kitten sniff sniffle sniffle 23:26:07 elliott, if I had time I would 23:26:09 Hmm 23:26:17 Let me get VirtualBox working 23:26:18 Sgeo: You spend an awful lot of time IRCing :P 23:26:23 Sgeo: No, VirtualBox testing isn't useful. 23:26:26 I have VirtualBox myself :P 23:26:26 elliott: btw, if something starts boiling again, remind me that it's supposed to 23:26:32 What I don't have is various different hardware configurations. 23:26:32 olsner: k 23:26:36 Ah 23:26:46 -!- madbr has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:26:49 So, you want me to install some OS you made? 23:26:56 Sgeo: It's Linux :P 23:27:01 You can easily put it on another partition. 23:27:07 Although doing that might actually require Linux. Ho hum. 23:27:11 You could still be doing malicous things 23:27:21 malicious 23:27:26 * Sgeo can't spell today 23:27:26 Sgeo: I really have better things to do than try and fuck up your computer. 23:27:46 * Sgeo doesn't have time right now. Maybe tomorrow 23:27:55 Sgeo: Hell, it's not ready today. 23:27:57 Or tomorrow. 23:28:01 Ah 23:28:19 Sgeo: Try a few weeks to a month :P 23:29:30 pikhq: " The U.S. Justice Department accused Oracle Corp. of defrauding the federal government on a software contract that involved more than $1 billion in sales." 23:29:33 *"The 23:29:35 --WSJ but still. 23:31:10 -!- Sasha2_ has joined. 23:31:47 Hey, lame story about me being related to some quasi-famous thing in some way 23:32:04 * Sgeo has become self-aware! 23:32:10 wut. 23:32:23 -!- Sasha2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:33:07 -!- Sasha2_ has changed nick to Sasha2. 23:34:01 elliott, .... ... http://www.worldofminecraft.com/ 23:34:26 the name 23:34:49 ha 23:35:13 * Sgeo hits Vorpal with a High-Tech Hand 23:35:37 Sgeo, what? 23:35:39 Vorpal: I assume you've seen: 23:35:43 Vorpal: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/9/17/ 23:35:44 Vorpal: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/9/20/ 23:35:45 Sgeo, what do you mean? 23:36:00 elliott, no I haven't. *reads* 23:36:02 There was a Creatures fansite called The High-Tech Hand 23:36:03 (thanks) 23:36:14 Sgeo, uh? creatures as in? 23:36:20 The game 23:36:29 (Well, series of games) 23:36:46 elliott: what can you turn sticks into? 23:36:59 olsner: ALL SORTS OF THINGS (when paired with wood) 23:37:06 Sgeo, and what has that got to do with anything? 23:37:18 Vorpal, the weird name for a site 23:37:30 literally every sort of thing? 23:37:38 Sgeo, okay... 23:37:49 olsner, nah. Just a huge number of things 23:38:15 olsner, various tools, torches, weapons, fishing rod, lots more 23:38:34 and also not just with wood 23:38:36 with wood 23:38:51 well that would be for low quality tools/weapons 23:38:56 you want rock later on 23:39:01 and then iron 23:39:16 perhaps, if you are lucky and find some, diamond 23:39:18 elliott, have you been reading Sam Hughes's NaNoWriMo stuff? 23:40:11 oh no... there was a plot twist but I missed it, now I have to backtrack to find out when it twisted and why 23:40:22 olsner, in what? 23:40:30 The Event 23:40:41 also, don't distract me :) 23:41:36 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 23:42:35 Sgeo, isn't he still ignoring you? 23:43:24 oh, now I get it, the cuts that looked like they were from a parallel story was actually the cuts that explained the plot twist 23:43:47 Vorpal, um, no? 23:43:56 Unless he was obsessively reading logs 23:53:40 -!- elliott has joined. 23:53:43 Vorpal: Write a filesystem. (You'd be good with drudge work like that, I feel.) 23:57:29 elliott, ouch. I'd hate to do that 23:57:42 elliott, I'd just use zfs except for it's license 23:57:48 Vorpal: + oracle control 23:57:56 Ugh, but then I don't want to use ext4, because fscking is so slow compared to jfs... 23:58:02 elliott, yeah but with a saner license it wouldn't be in such control 23:58:05 pikhq: When was the last time you resized a partition? 23:58:07 elliott, jfs? 23:58:12 Vorpal: it'd still need a fork for me to trust it. 23:58:15 Vorpal: (btrfs has the same problem) 23:58:22 elliott, to trust jfs? 23:58:23 Vorpal: what do you mean "jfs?" 23:58:28 no, to trust ZFS 23:58:29 elliott, I suggest using jfs! 23:58:41 Vorpal: Absolutely perfect of course, except that it doesn't support resizing partitions. 23:58:43 elliott, Sam Hughes NaNoWriMo 23:58:47 Sgeo: ? 23:58:48 Have you been reading it? 23:58:49 elliott, it supports growing iirc 23:58:54 Sgeo: Not really. Why? 23:58:58 elliott, not shrinking though 23:59:00 Vorpal: not that I know of 23:59:10 JFS includes a rather unusual partition-resizing ability: It's built into the kernel's JFS driver. You can use this feature to increase, but not to decrease, the size of the filesystem. As with most other partition-resizing tools, you must modify the partition size first by using fdisk to delete the partition and then recreate it with a larger size. After you've done this, you should mount the partition as you normally do and then issue the follo 23:59:10 wing command: 23:59:12 oh, indeed 23:59:23 elliott, man mount 23:59:26 Just wondering. Also, there's at least one story that you'd have some shnaudenfraud over imagining me in it 23:59:33 Sgeo: i have seen it. 23:59:36 spelling fail 23:59:45 * Sgeo is aware of the fail 23:59:47 elliott, I suggest just using gparted