00:00:34 <Vorpal> Ilari, true but some faster than others. I would suspect butter becomes bad in doeses smaller than, say, vitamin C. :P
00:01:04 <Vorpal> iirc vitamin C is quite hard to take too much of
00:01:17 <Ilari> 10 grams of butter is nothing. 10g of vitamin C is quite a lot...
00:01:28 <Vorpal> Ilari, I meant compared to normal
00:01:34 <Vorpal> Ilari, as in 200% of normal
00:01:47 <Vorpal> Ilari, not in absolute weight
00:01:47 <oklopol> can you actually take visible amounts of it? are c vitamin pills actually just... c vitamin?
00:03:13 <pikhq> oklopol: Some people suggest a 6 to 18 gram dose. (the efficacy of this has not been shown in clinical trials)
00:03:40 <oklopol> okay, that's what i thought
00:04:08 <oklopol> for some reason "vitamin" sounds like something you only take one microgram a week
00:04:10 <pikhq> Which, incidentally, *has* been shown to have negative side effects.
00:04:40 <Vorpal> for rats LD_50 of vitamin C is "11.9 grams per kilogram of body weight" according to wikipedia. Which seems rather non-toxic
00:04:54 <Vorpal> it is unknown for humans
00:05:35 <pikhq> Vorpal: Lethal dosage is generally well above where negative side effects appear...
00:05:37 <Vorpal> oklopol, I refuse to believe that statement!
00:06:06 <pikhq> Anyways. People can clearly get away with taking freaking grams of Vitamin C.
00:06:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, yep, you need quite a bit for indigestion. Which seems to be the main side effect for large doses
00:06:28 <Ilari> Wonder what LD_50 of linolic acid would be to rats...
00:06:54 <pikhq> Not that it's a good idea — people can also get away with eating kilograms of just fat, but it's not exactly a good idea.
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00:08:01 <Ilari> Overeating is not a good idea (fortunately, it isn't easy to do)...
00:08:37 <Vorpal> pikhq, also wikipedia notes that the method of death in rats by vitamin C is unknown, with speculation about it being "more mechanical than chemical"
00:09:05 <elliott> Yeah, it jams up their brain.
00:09:33 <Vorpal> elliott, well I presume it means something less literal than that :P
00:10:37 <Ilari> Whacky ways to die: Some chemical that disturbs mitochondrial proton storage (for ATP synthethis): Overdose on it and death is because body cooks itself with all the heat from metabolism...
00:10:43 <elliott> # sleep 1 ensures that xargs will have time to start up
00:10:43 <elliott> # this makes pslist less prone to random jitter
00:10:43 <elliott> pslist=`{ sleep 1; ps -A -o comm=; } | xargs`
00:10:49 <pikhq> Vorpal: So, something similar to how water has an LD50 because it can cause cells to burst via osmosis.
00:11:03 <elliott> pikhq: water can fuck up your something-something balance
00:11:17 <pikhq> Too much water can fuck up a lot of things.
00:11:17 <elliott> ais523 said he drunk something that was specifically balanced so that LD50 = infinity :P
00:12:38 <pikhq> Is called "saline".
00:12:50 <elliott> pslist=`{ sleep 1; ps -A -o comm=; } | xargs`
00:13:01 <elliott> I love how, naively read, this duplicates every process :)
00:13:04 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Vorpal: So, something similar to how water has an LD50 because it can cause cells to burst via osmosis. <-- presumably
00:13:09 <elliott> pikhq: No, it was actually *really* impossible to overdose on.
00:13:12 <elliott> Vorpal: Torrent done. brb.
00:14:08 <Vorpal> elliott, otherwise you are a douchebag to all the other peers
00:16:21 <Ilari> Heh... I don't remember what was LC_50 for freons... Something really high.
00:16:37 <Ilari> IIRC, something like 13%...
00:16:52 <Vorpal> Ilari, uh... freons? Well do you include the ozone hole then?
00:20:14 <Vorpal> you could presumably calculate a planet wide LD_50
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00:30:15 <coppro> oklopol: they are annoying to work with imo
00:30:23 <coppro> and I say that because I'm working with them right now
00:30:28 <coppro> and they're annoying :X
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00:47:46 <elliott> Vorpal: I will. Although there will be obvious computer-turned-off outages.
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00:50:06 <elliott> Anyone experienced with Kbuild (i.e. make menuconfig style systems)?
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00:58:39 <elliott> Vorpal: "WARNING : Ethernet adapter, which is assigned to CHARON, must not be used by third-party programs."
01:01:36 <gm|lap> i read that as CHACARON
01:02:53 <elliott> pikhq: BTW, BusyBox lowdown: It can build everything dynamically linked to a library, but it can't build that library statically yet.
01:03:02 <elliott> pikhq: Apparently patches are accepted :P
01:03:11 <elliott> pikhq: But I'll have to add a setting to the Kbuild... and I have no idea how to.
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01:15:01 <dbelange> http://ask.slashdot.org/story/10/11/13/1742253/Which-Language-To-Learn
01:15:52 <elliott> coppro: is that the guy or is that the other guy
01:16:00 <elliott> god, it's so hard to tell you canadians apart, why can't there be only one of you?
01:18:05 <elliott> coppro: have you got sticks and rocks?
01:18:10 <elliott> or will we have to settle for rocks and sticks
01:20:30 <coppro> elliott: rocks and tree
01:20:44 <elliott> coppro: Tress *and* trees?
01:21:32 <elliott> coppro: But what about the tress?
01:21:40 <coppro> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asqWMKju-0A
01:24:18 <elliott> <coppro> elliott: rocks and tree
01:24:24 <elliott> coppro: I'm asking about the tress.
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01:29:57 <elliott> pikhq: Let's hear it for dup2! Best system call in all the land!
01:31:08 <elliott> pikhq: Hmm. Opinion: Services should be run with >log 2>&1, not having stderr to a separate file.
01:31:20 <elliott> Justification: What kind of service prints to stdout, anyway? And it's useful to see the ordering.
01:34:14 <elliott> --w----r-T 1 elliott elliott 3 Nov 14 01:33 log
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01:48:46 <coppro> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cDFB00iVp0
01:49:12 <coppro> (and yes, the physics is wrong. The person responsible for the comments has informed me of this)
01:52:26 <elliott> coppro: It's like a spinning top but AWESOME.
01:52:44 <elliott> Never mind, it's just awesome.
01:53:02 <coppro> yeah, it's actually floating
01:53:39 <coppro> all the reasearch going into HTSCs for maglevs could make the best trains ever
01:53:53 <coppro> I also love how superconductors basically make holes in magnetic fields
01:59:32 <elliott> right now, i'm debugging my service manager. 's integer printing function
01:59:51 <coppro> also really cool are maglev systems that require no electromagnets
02:00:02 <elliott> i should just use libowfat or something
02:00:33 <coppro> the track consists of copper coils, and the train has permanent magnets. The train's motion induces a sufficient magnetic field to levitate it
02:00:48 <coppro> downside is there's a lot of electromagnetic drag
02:00:59 <coppro> and you'd need some serious engines (jet engines, anyone?)
02:02:24 <elliott> what's wrong with electromagic :
02:02:31 <elliott> (fucking magnets, how do they work?)
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02:09:35 <pikhq> Wow. That's awesome. Liquid nitrogen is apparently used to work on pipes...
02:09:52 <pikhq> When there's not an off-valve, they'll use it to freeze the pipe so that water won't flow through it.
02:13:10 <coppro> elliott: electromagnets require power
02:13:45 <coppro> elliott: But if you have a permanent magnet, you have more power to spend
02:14:53 <coppro> well, that would be needed if you wanted to go really fast, yes
02:15:04 <pikhq> Or just a vaccuum.
02:15:50 <coppro> although it would be really cool to have a train that ran in an evacuated tube
02:16:00 <coppro> the efficiency would be mindboggling
02:16:43 <coppro> (but the construction costs would be obscene, and safety would be a massive concern
02:16:58 <pikhq> Works better if you move everyone TO THE MOON
02:17:10 <pikhq> Problem: now you need to have not-vaccuum.
02:17:26 <coppro> you could even use maglev in a vacuum
02:17:34 <pikhq> Darned hypercorrection.
02:17:39 <coppro> and if you use alternative electromagnetic propulsion...
02:33:25 <elliott> <coppro> although it would be really cool to have a train that ran in an evacuated tube
02:33:29 <elliott> i can see problems with entering the tube...
02:41:18 <dbelange> You can enter my tube any time ;)
02:41:48 <dbelange> Or: I can see problems with entering your mom's tube (chlamydia)
02:41:59 <elliott> dbelange: Sure, we can put a gigantic train in your urethra.
02:45:33 <coppro> google hits for "have sex with my life": 3
02:45:53 <coppro> google hits for "fuck my life": 6770000
02:46:34 <elliott> googly hits for "engage in sexual intercourse with my sentient existence": 0
02:49:13 <coppro> yeah, that language sucks
02:49:16 <elliott> dbelange: ML is a perfectly cromulent language!
02:50:31 <coppro> the scary thing is the dbelange fits right in
02:51:27 <elliott> dbelange is dead, netcraft confirms it
02:52:08 <elliott> coppro: i was going to argue, but yeah :P
02:52:55 <elliott> (Imagine a Beowulf cluster of dbelanges.)
02:59:06 <elliott> wtf, why does my program work when writing to stdout but not this file...
03:03:31 <coppro> elliott: because you lol
03:05:52 <elliott> coppro: but my code am perfect
03:14:38 <elliott> coppro: mayn't amn't is't?
03:21:11 <elliott> coppro: no i swear to god, "pid" changes depending on what file i write it to
03:24:59 <elliott> coppro: BUT THAT MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL
03:25:13 <elliott> it's 9389 or similar when fd=1
03:25:20 <elliott> but 0, always, when fd=thefile
03:26:24 <elliott> coppro: wow, posix requires pid_t to be signed
03:26:28 <elliott> coppro: them negative pids
03:29:05 <elliott> coppro: I swear to god, this writes "0\n" to the file and the right pid to stdout.
03:29:08 <elliott> I DON'T GET IT FFFFFFFFFFF
03:35:21 <elliott> coppro: this is literally driving me insane explain it
03:35:35 <coppro> elliott: dbelange's mother
03:35:46 <elliott> coppro has been taken over by dbelange
03:37:55 <elliott> coppro: no seriously, what???
03:38:10 <elliott> it isn't an io problem, i checked
03:38:17 <elliott> the integer is literally 0 then and only then
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03:38:53 <coppro> elliott: you're a loser
03:39:08 <Gregor> Oh pooppy, why ya gotta be so mean?
03:39:45 <elliott> Gregor: HOW CAN WRITEL SEE PID AS 0 IN THE SECOND CALL, AND IN *NO OTHER CALL*?
03:39:51 <elliott> I *checked*, it is actually seeing it as 0.
03:39:55 <elliott> int writel(int fd, long i)
03:39:57 <elliott> char s[(sizeof(long)*CHAR_BIT)/3];
03:39:57 <elliott> if (!i) return writes(fd, "0");
03:40:00 <elliott> That bit of code *gets executed*.
03:40:45 <coppro> argh damn you perfect numbers!
03:45:52 <coppro> also <3 <3 <3 metroid music
03:47:29 <elliott> If pid is negative but not (pid_t)-1, sig will be sent to
03:47:29 <elliott> all processes whose process group ID is equal to the abso-
03:47:29 <elliott> lute value of pid and for which the process has permission
03:49:09 <elliott> http://thehiawathatriad.org/home/?page_id=1780 "Web 4.0, IPv8 & Exploration"
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04:41:08 <zzo38> What does this mean? sdIv:;aL{l*h?[?Q4-xiYf9QSi3U&7edDCVZ3z<t
04:42:48 <zzo38> I saw a request "CONNECT 213.92.8.7:31204 HTTP/1.0" on the log file (this request was denied; I do not allow that method to be used on my server), but when I try to connect to it, that is the strange message I get.
04:43:37 <zzo38> I also get a lot of requests that seem like they were probably meant for other servers.
04:43:56 <zzo38> Such as this one: "GET /m/search?site=images&q=true+blood+cover HTTP/1.1"
04:45:08 <zzo38> I also get many proxy requests.
04:49:38 <zzo38> And what request is this? "GET /img8/components/com_google_maps/google_maps.php?mosConfig_absolute_path=http://musicadelibreria.net/footer?? HTTP/1.1"
04:50:21 <zzo38> Or the even more strange one that inserts /?S=D/ between /img8/ and /components/
04:52:54 <zzo38> I also seem to get many requests for Mario Fan Games Galaxy Wiki. Well, too bad; my computer does not serve that wiki.
04:54:47 <olsner> in other news, brussel sprouts are slightly bitter
04:55:27 <zzo38> If you do not like it, then do not eat it. But if you like it despite slightly bitter, then please eat it anyways.
04:57:02 <olsner> I don't not like it so I won't not eat it, and since I do like it I will eat it anyways.
04:57:17 <olsner> incidentally I just ran out of sprouts
04:57:43 <zzo38> Well, TOO BAD NOW YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT
04:57:50 <olsner> and the holy mountain is a mighty weird movie
04:58:08 <zzo38> Then write a review of it.
04:58:36 <olsner> No. That's not a thing I do.
04:58:54 <zzo38> Then someone else can write a review of it.
04:59:08 <olsner> they probably already have
04:59:36 <olsner> OK. We're in agreement then.
05:00:24 <olsner> this movie features a dwarf with no legs and no arms
05:04:54 <zzo38> Why do I get all of these strange requests on my HTTP server?
05:05:00 <zzo38> I even got this: "\xf9\xee\xe8\x1clg\x9e\xbe\xf7\xbcI\xf6\xa6\x9f\xc3\xb9\xcdV\xce\xabF\x82\xf3\x1e)\xf0"
05:07:57 <pikhq> http://yfrog.com/i3offmodelandersonp That's one amazing mouth.
05:08:12 <pikhq> It's, all, 90° to the right of the face.
05:59:11 <Ilari> zzo38: What host do those strange requests have?
06:35:59 <zzo38> Ilari: They come from various sources
06:36:13 <zzo38> I do not know what Host: header or any other headers
06:36:29 <zzo38> (The headers and POST data are not logged)
06:36:46 <zzo38> (But the response code is logged, and the response length is also logged)
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08:35:40 <ais523> ugh, Evolution has managed to screw up in a really crazy way I haven't seen before
08:35:54 <ais523> there are a huge number of messages in a folder, but it isn't displaying any but one of them no matter what I do
08:36:20 <ais523> (the messages themselves are still there; I managed to import the folder into Evolution by referencing it by filename and they all came back again, and checked against a backup to make sure)
08:36:55 <ais523> also, the folder in question is impossible to delete, because it tries to delete "all messages" in the folder, missing the 1672 that aren't shown, then complains the folder isn't empty
08:37:15 <ais523> I tried overwriting the only differing file with one from my backup, but Evolution just changes it back
09:01:18 <ais523> local mbox, getting the messages via POP3
09:01:39 <ais523> well, that particular mbox is getting the messages via me moving them from elsewhere
09:05:02 <ais523> I know what triggered the glitch, too: me pressing return in a search box with no text in it
09:05:12 <ais523> I won't do that again...
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09:36:27 <Ilari> Heh... Reminds me of trying to open maildir in mutt that is missing some of the required subdirectories...
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12:02:01 <oklopol> don't some trains already levitate? or maybe i just saw that in a dream.
12:02:27 <Phantom_Hoover> They do if they're maglev, but that doesn't really count.
12:03:07 <coppro> it's just so much cooler with a superconductor
12:03:13 <coppro> it's literally a floating hunk of rock
12:03:24 <Phantom_Hoover> I have a great temptation to redo my Newtonian simulator with relativistic mechanics...
12:03:45 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: fine. metal
12:04:22 <Phantom_Hoover> And you need to have a massive cooling apparatus next to it, which detracts from the awesome somewhat.
12:04:45 <coppro> all you need is liquid nitrogen
12:04:46 <coppro> incidentally, my school apparently leaves access open to the N_{2(\ell)} and CO_{2(\ell)}
12:05:31 <Phantom_Hoover> My parents did some stuff with liquid nitrogen when I was little, although the reason we had it was rather prosaic.
12:05:50 <coppro> you can do tons of cool stuff with liquid N2
12:06:23 <coppro> (I should mention that the liquid CO2 is very dangerous as it's at high pressure)
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12:08:26 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: make YBCO superconduct, for one thing!
12:08:29 <Phantom_Hoover> It would either solidify or evaporate when you let it out of its high-pressure environment.
12:09:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Doing a relativistic simulator could be tricky, though...
12:10:13 <Phantom_Hoover> For one thing, you can't really escape having a fixed frame of reference easily.
12:10:29 <Phantom_Hoover> And then the FP calculations will screw everything up.
12:12:59 <coppro> I wonder if it's possible to physically touch supercritical CO2 without killing yourself... no, actually, it must be
12:13:18 <coppro> but you'd need a hyperbaric chamber and the wait would probably be far more than it's worth
12:13:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Since I set \delta{t} to be 0.1, so the timekeeping gets steadily less accurate.
12:13:49 <Phantom_Hoover> You know, we really need to make a plugin for XChat which renders LaTeX.
12:24:15 <coppro> use infinity precision
12:24:45 <coppro> (and symbolic math, of course)
12:29:54 <coppro> you model the entire system as a gigantic DE
12:35:36 <Ilari> Special Relativistic or General Relativistic?
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13:39:34 <Ilari> Could be fun to write planetary orbit simulator that allows to choose between few different models of gravity...
13:43:57 <Ilari> Like, more than just newtonian and GR (there are more models than that...)
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13:48:29 <Ilari> I don't know more worthwhile-to-implement motion models than newtonian and SR. With gravity, it gets more diverse...
13:56:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, doing GR would be a start towards the non-Euclidean raytracer.
13:59:04 <elliott> Seriously, I *cannot* figure out what is wrong with this C.
14:00:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://sprunge.us/iZJa
14:00:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The same number in the nine-thousands (for me) is written twice to stdout. This is the PID.
14:00:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But to the logfile, "0\n" is ALWAYS written.
14:00:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: My if (!i) code path IS being executed; I have changed what it outputs and it outputs those things.
14:01:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: HOW is i different for the writel call -- literally, it becomes a different value -- when all I change is the fd argument, and it works after with fd=1???
14:01:31 <elliott> no, gdb makes me cry, but i might.
14:01:46 <elliott> i know what syscalls it executes
14:01:52 <elliott> the wrong ones :) well, wrong arguments
14:06:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It works when run under gdb. I am not kidding you.
14:06:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It does not when run normally.
14:07:32 <elliott> if ((fd = creat("pid", 0644)) < 0) diewith("creat", errno);
14:07:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It would be fairly hard not to initialise fd there.
14:08:01 <elliott> char s[(sizeof(long)*CHAR_BIT)/3];
14:08:04 <elliott> This is uninitialised, but I do
14:08:07 <elliott> return write(fd, t, sizeof(s) - (t-s));
14:08:16 <elliott> and I've initialised t to t+(that length)-1
14:09:29 <elliott> Just checked writel; yes, even outside of gdb, it gets the right argument.
14:09:32 <elliott> It just does the wrong thing with it.
14:10:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You won't believe this, but it was a mistake I had with fork().
14:10:44 <elliott> if (!(pid = fork())) run();
14:10:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: See the issue here? *My run() finishes*.
14:11:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So since fork() returns 0 for the subprocess, since that's how it signals that, pid = 0 for that and the subprocess just happens to write to pid quicker...
14:14:57 <elliott> if ((fd = open("/dev/null", O_WRONLY)) < 0) diewith("open", errno);
14:14:58 <elliott> if (dup2(fd, 1) < 0) diewith("dup2", errno);
14:14:58 <elliott> if (dup2(fd, 2) < 0) diewith("dup2", errno);
14:15:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: C -- because >/dev/null 2>&1 should take three lines of code!
14:24:31 <elliott> pikhq: I would like to express an opinion.
14:24:46 <elliott> pikhq: WHY DOESN'T THE STANDARD UNIX API HAVE AN EASY WAY TO DETECT WHEN A FILE'S PERMISSIONS CHANGE
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14:30:33 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, find the permissions and see if they've changed?
14:30:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: In a tight loop?
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14:35:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So -- "poll every N seconds".
14:35:16 <elliott> I will just defer to Vorpal here because his hate of this is one thing he's actually right about.
14:38:22 <elliott> gamin better have a nice api
14:39:01 <elliott> http://swoolley.org/man.cgi/3/fam ha ha ha
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14:39:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: a file monitoring implementation
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14:41:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Uhh, if I monitor the file I can get a notification when its permissions change...
14:43:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Write svmg, like all the previous times :P
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14:54:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Manage services.
14:56:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: AKA "Let's see how much we can directly reimplement daemontools and runit with hopeless naïvety and not be a total ripoff".
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15:16:09 <elliott> "Users, especially administrators, who are associated, or suspected of association, with sites which are hypercritical of Wikipedia can expect their Wikipedia activities as well as their activities on the hypercritical website, to be closely monitored."
15:19:13 <Gregor> elliott: lawl, where's that from?
15:19:26 <elliott> Gregor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/MONGO#Karma
15:19:34 <elliott> Gregor: Amusingly not a single one of those motions got a single negative vote
15:19:48 <elliott> Gregor: DEMOCRACY OF THE SMALL HIVEMIND!
15:20:44 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EncyclopediaDramatica.png I wonder how many days it took to wait for the ED front page to be SFW enough to include
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15:32:57 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbFz--GCkOM In which a Winnie the Pooh film is made that, contrary to all expectations anyone may have had, is not 3D. Or ugly.
15:34:02 <Gregor> Does it have that bitch instead of Christopher Robin? :P
15:36:12 <elliott> Gregor: "this new movie is an adaption of five A. A. Milne Pooh stories which Disney hasn't used before" --reddit
15:36:17 <elliott> Gregor: It actually looks really good :P
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15:56:38 <oklopol> so i heard there are now brain reading hats you can buy
15:56:48 <oklopol> could someone link me to one
15:58:47 <elliott> oklopol: well there are mind-control interfaces for computers. they sort of work
15:59:16 <elliott> oklopol: you could do this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BrainGate!
15:59:38 <elliott> oklopol: mind-control gaymin interface: http://www.ocztechnology.com/products/ocz_peripherals/nia
15:59:52 <Phantom_Hoover> I went to a university with one of them. It didn't work too well, although I don't think the system was that sophisticated.
16:00:09 <Gregor> elliott: Looks comfortable and stylish.
16:00:22 <elliott> Gregor: BrainGate or nia? :P
16:01:15 <Phantom_Hoover> The one I saw worked by monitoring your occipital lobe.
16:01:16 <oklopol> i don't care what it looks or how much it costs, as long as i can write binary without moving
16:01:38 <Gregor> elliott: Also, I think you typo'd "gay men" in the link to nia.
16:01:56 <Gregor> As it is clearly a gay men interface. ... the best kind of interface? :P
16:02:00 <Phantom_Hoover> You looked at a blinking light, and it did a Fourier transform on the brainwaves and checked for a frequency component.
16:02:23 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: And what if you're blind? Or stupid?
16:02:49 <Phantom_Hoover> If you don't have a signal coming from your occipital lobe, it doesn't work.
16:03:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I say "your" inaccurately. It wouldn't have been possible to clear using it on me with an ethics board, apparently.
16:03:56 <elliott> Gregor: I was going for "gaymen" without being completely opaque :P
16:04:04 <elliott> oklopol: http://www.ocztechnology.com/products/ocz_peripherals/nia
16:04:13 <elliott> oklopol: it even comes with windows-based configuration
16:04:31 <oklopol> i hope it's easy to get the data out of that
16:04:35 <elliott> oklopol: "By translating facial expressions, eye movements and concentrated brainwave activity into PC game keyboard and mouse controls, nia opens new." so just make sure it only listens to the brainwaves
16:04:39 <elliott> oklopol: sure, it presses keys
16:04:43 <elliott> so just read a key at a time
16:04:50 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, you could write binary in the visual one easily enough.
16:04:56 <elliott> oklopol: hopefully you can disable the facial expressions/eye movements stuff, although gotta say, this'll be very few bits per second :P
16:04:59 <elliott> oklopol: or... a few seconds per bit
16:05:25 <Phantom_Hoover> And you could probably expand it to pairs of bits, if not triplets.
16:05:41 <oklopol> elliott: few seconds per bit for you maybe.
16:06:03 <oklopol> anyway all i want to do is get binary output and train myself fast at it
16:06:06 <elliott> oklopol: good luck :P apparently people have managed to play games with it, although it is a bit unpredictable
16:06:16 <elliott> oklopol: and i imagine they had it looking at facial expressions / eye movements too
16:06:26 <elliott> dunno if you can disable that. hopefully :P
16:06:52 <oklopol> hopefully you will actually get the data it reads out unprocessed
16:06:54 <elliott> Gregor: i forget, do string buffers go first or last in C
16:07:02 <elliott> like if you're converting foo to string, string is first or last
16:07:40 <Gregor> I have no idea what you mean by what you just said :P
16:07:51 <elliott> char *footostr(foo x, char *buf);
16:07:54 <elliott> char *footostr(char *buf, foo x);
16:07:57 <elliott> Gregor: i forget which is the done thing
16:08:07 <Gregor> The "to" is always first usually.
16:08:54 <elliott> char *t = s + DECIMALOF(long) - 1;
16:08:58 <elliott> #define DECIMALOF(t) ((sizeof(t)*8)/3)
16:09:02 <elliott> Gregor: i sorta totally blame you for this :)
16:09:48 <elliott> EISDIR An ELF interpreter was a directory.
16:10:00 <elliott> ENOENT The file filename or a script or ELF interpreter does not exist,
16:10:01 <elliott> or a shared library needed for file or interpreter cannot be
16:10:19 <elliott> Oh well, what kind of shithead uses shared libraries, anyway.
16:14:04 <oklopol> yeah that thing's too hard to buy, i wish there was a page where i could just pour 10 times the money a thing costs and they'd just send it to me
16:14:20 <oklopol> i don't want to look at fucking retarded webpages
16:15:10 <oklopol> preferably not a page, more like a shop, so i could walk instead of browsing
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16:17:25 <elliott> oklopol: it's called a shop
16:17:45 <elliott> oklopol: amazon ships to you guys right?
16:19:03 <elliott> oklopol: http://www.amazon.com/OCZ-OCZMSNIA-NIA-Impulse-Actuator/dp/B00168VU4U
16:20:27 <oklopol> oh that thing's on amazon, i searched with a few stupid queries and all i got was books
16:21:40 <elliott> oklopol: i don't know if you can disable the eye movement stuff and the like so uh
16:21:43 <elliott> close your eyes and be very still
16:21:56 <elliott> (use headphones to listen to the output, just record yourself saying "zero" and "one" and have your program play them)
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16:23:54 <Sgeo> Dear Hulu/Syfy (I don't know who to swear at): You said I'd be able to watch episodes 30 days after airing. Did you just flat out forget?
16:24:16 <oklopol> well i'll buy it just in case it is cool.
16:24:23 <elliott> oklopol: can i have some money
16:24:27 <elliott> since you don't care about it
16:24:32 <elliott> oklopol: in return i'll be awesome??
16:24:35 <elliott> oklopol: BUT WHAT IF I'M AWESOME
16:24:41 <elliott> oklopol: not yet i don't :P
16:24:54 <oklopol> no i mean because of clicking
16:24:59 <elliott> oklopol: that was *not* 50
16:25:25 <elliott> oklopol: i'll accept £25 instead of £50 since that's my debt
16:25:32 <elliott> also since you're probably really poor
16:25:57 <oklopol> it's probably easier for both our accounting if i pay 50 and you pay me the 25 later
16:27:19 <oklopol> then maybe i can buy a wheelchair and make it move and talk when i think
16:28:40 <elliott> <oklopol> it's probably easier for both our accounting if i pay 50 and you pay me the 25 later
16:28:44 <elliott> what kind of accounting is *that*
16:29:00 <elliott> oklopol: anyway still two years - 3 months before you have to pay
16:33:18 <elliott> oklopol: or we could just write off both of our debts, which is profitable to you (assuming you lose it which... you will)
16:34:19 <oklopol> okay i ordered the thingie
16:34:30 <oklopol> probably it'll suck ass but i'm optimistic.
16:42:31 <elliott> oklopol: that's what she asid
16:42:37 <oklopol> maybe i ordered their last piece because the page doesn't have the product anymore...
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16:51:13 * Zuu gives elliott a 'do it yourself'-kit consisting of a hammer and a chisel :D
16:54:36 <elliott> Zuu: but see i get my error from execl which is in the FORKED process
16:54:43 <Zuu> It's funny how conplex stuff has become... there was a time where everything could be fixed with a hammer and a chisel
16:54:45 <elliott> but i need the error in the parent, see
16:54:49 <elliott> so how can i DO that?!?1/1
16:55:48 <Zuu> the entire set of solutions is classified as some kind of ipc, so if you dont want that there is no other solution :)
16:56:15 <elliott> Zuu: i could do a call that lets me see the error from the parent instead
16:56:20 <elliott> even though that call is execl
16:56:27 <elliott> and if it succeeds, well, there goes my process
17:09:36 <Sgeo> So reddit's "popular choices" on the submission page is pretty much a list of subscribed-to reddits
17:09:48 <Sgeo> I don't think NoPDubClub is that popular
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17:26:40 <elliott> " On typical PC servers a reboot is
17:26:40 <elliott> quite lengthy: the BIOS takes two minutes, the kernel takes 20 seconds, and
17:26:40 <elliott> the boot scripts take 30-90 seconds."
17:26:45 * elliott wonders what kind of bios takes that long
17:29:52 <elliott> admittedly this is from 2004, but still
17:30:29 <Vorpal> elliott, do you happen to know if python lists are arrays or cons-style lists?
17:30:42 <Vorpal> elliott, how do you get linked lists in python then?
17:30:52 <olsner> someone had made a modified linux thingy with a power-on to init delay of less than 1s
17:31:05 <Phantom_Hoover> There's a word for those lumpy bits on sci-fi spaceships.
17:31:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, nodules?
17:31:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what lumpy bits?
17:31:56 <elliott> Vorpal: a question of my own: what's the simplest, dirt cheap way on unix/linux to make a call that will block until a file's permissions change? It is okay if it returns sometimes when that doesn't happen, too (I'm just trying to not poll every second).
17:32:03 <elliott> Vorpal: I would rather avoid fam and the like.
17:32:08 <Phantom_Hoover> The article has a picture of a greebled cube which should make it clear.
17:32:51 <Vorpal> elliott, uh... Not sure. But it might be worth checking if epoll or inotify can do that
17:32:58 <Vorpal> elliott, inotify probably can
17:33:36 <elliott> Vorpal: Anything more portable? :P
17:33:44 <elliott> I wish you could just select() on a filesystem entry or something.
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17:33:57 <Vorpal> elliott, perhaps kqueue on *bsd
17:34:06 <Vorpal> but no, nothing portable I think
17:34:16 <elliott> Vorpal: so gamin then. bleh
17:34:21 <elliott> Vorpal: i'm just going to poll every few seconds :)
17:34:23 <Vorpal> elliott, you could use some wrapper library such as gamin yes
17:34:33 <Phantom_Hoover> http://web.archive.org/web/20060214091217/http://battletech-movie.com/html/tutorials/comments_about_greebling.php is a long article about greebles.
17:34:33 <elliott> at least it's not doing anything intensive
17:34:38 <Vorpal> elliott, but that would hopefully just map to inotify on linux
17:34:42 <elliott> ("fork, execl, failed for this specific reason? wait another few seconds")
17:34:58 <elliott> hmm or i could do it inside svmg(8)
17:34:59 <Vorpal> elliott, ouch my battery :P
17:35:14 <elliott> Vorpal: patches that don't use gamin welcome :)
17:35:23 <Vorpal> elliott, oh gamin is fine
17:35:27 <elliott> Vorpal: (looked at the fam api, pretty big added complexity considering how tiny my program is right now)
17:35:34 <elliott> Vorpal: (it doesn't even use stdio)
17:35:39 <Vorpal> elliott, so inotify then
17:35:47 <elliott> Vorpal: but i hate linux-centrism :)
17:36:09 <Vorpal> elliott, what about this then: detect-poll.c detect-inotify.c
17:36:15 <Vorpal> then select the best one at compile time
17:36:21 <Vorpal> and you could easily add other ones
17:36:31 <elliott> Vorpal: otoh, i prefer linux-centrism to *that* :)
17:36:52 <elliott> Vorpal: added complexity of {shitty impl + good impl}
17:36:55 <elliott> where nobody really wants the first
17:37:08 <Vorpal> elliott, because polling would ruin it for laptops
17:37:39 <Vorpal> IN_ATTRIB Metadata changed, e.g., permissions, timestamps, extended attributes, link count (since Linux 2.6.25), UID, GID, etc. (*).
17:37:45 <Vorpal> elliott, seems almost exactly like what you want
17:37:48 <elliott> maybe i could do it in an ENTIRELY NEW WAY :)
17:37:52 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah, i'll look into it
17:38:03 <Vorpal> elliott, inotify is scheduled to be replaced btw
17:38:44 <Vorpal> elliott, there is a new one that unifies dnotify and inotify. fsnotify. Currently it is not exposed to user space, but in 2.6.36 inotify and dnotify are implemented in terms of it
17:39:12 <elliott> Vorpal: i can barely. contain. my excitement.
17:39:14 <Vorpal> elliott, iirc they couldn't agree on an user space API before 2.6.36 release
17:39:24 <Vorpal> so that is why it is currently kernel only
17:39:52 <elliott> Vorpal: maybe i'll just use SYSV IPC!!11
17:40:07 <Vorpal> elliott, what is this?
17:40:22 <Vorpal> but I meant more specifically
17:40:38 <Vorpal> elliott, surely you aren't using this to calculate the dependency graph for example
17:40:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, SIG = signal SEG = segmentation V = vfault?
17:40:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, good question
17:41:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, joke :P
17:41:08 <elliott> Vorpal: no, in this case it's waiting for ./run to become +x
17:41:11 <Vorpal> elliott, right ras rususal
17:41:16 <elliott> Vorpal: because +x = "run this service" -x = "don't"
17:41:26 <elliott> Vorpal: would have the same problem if it was presence of "down" file or not to represent that
17:41:31 <elliott> so not a permission-specific problem
17:41:31 <Vorpal> elliott, right. That was an useful answer :P
17:42:08 <Vorpal> elliott, though if you think of a way to use this for dependency calculation you win the price of being (mostly) on topic :P
17:42:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: oh, of course
17:42:47 <elliott> Vorpal: The price of being on topic. It is incalculable.
17:43:06 <Vorpal> elliott, modulo typos :P
17:43:13 <Vorpal> elliott, it's the same word in Swedish
17:43:29 <elliott> "Here's your price." "But I don't HAVE a million dollars to pay you." "We're giving YOU the million dollars!"
17:43:35 <Vorpal> elliott, pris for both
17:43:40 <elliott> "Here's your price." "I'm up for SALE?"
17:44:25 <Vorpal> elliott, the first one doesn't work. "Här är ditt pris" is unambig. for "here is your price"
17:44:34 <Vorpal> it isn't really ambig. in English either
17:45:05 <Vorpal> elliott, well, no one would interpret it that way. You might have heard of it. Context.
17:45:17 * Sgeo remembers that movie
17:45:30 <elliott> Sgeo has finally lost all semblance of rational thought, appends 1 to arbitrary things, speaks out of context, and is driven only by nostalgia.
17:45:42 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> elliott, the first one doesn't work. "Här är ditt pris" is unambig. for "here is your price" <-- s/price/prise/
17:45:47 <Sgeo> elliott, I'm watching the Nostalgia Critic
17:45:54 <Vorpal> elliott, your language is confusing
17:46:07 <Vorpal> elliott, you use fewer/less but more/more
17:46:15 <elliott> Vorpal: Actually fewer is dying out a bit...
17:46:17 <elliott> Vorpal: "10 items or less"
17:46:24 <elliott> Vorpal: "Less than three people"
17:46:33 <Vorpal> elliott, and inflammable means "likely to catch fire" unlike what the in- prefix normally means.
17:46:37 <elliott> Vorpal: Probably for the better although the prescriptivists of course whine about it to hell and back.
17:46:43 <elliott> Inflammable has a justification. I think.
17:46:52 <elliott> Vorpal: [[The word “inflammable” came from Latin “'inflammāre” = “to set fire to,” where the prefix “'in-”' means “in” as in “inside”, rather than “not” as in “invisible” and “ineligible”. Nonetheless, “inflammable” is often erroneously thought to mean “non-flammable”. To avoid this safety hazard, “flammable”, despite not being the proper Latin-derived t
17:46:52 <elliott> erm, is now commonly used on warning labels when referring to physical combustibility.[1]]
17:47:02 <Vorpal> elliott, inaudible should mean "very loud" then :P
17:47:12 <elliott> Vorpal: "to set audible to"?
17:47:21 <elliott> [[From Latin as if *inflammabilis < inflammare (“to set on fire”) < in (“in, on”) + flamma (“flame”).]]
17:48:09 <Vorpal> elliott, actually inflammable doesn't mean "to set fire to" today. It means "burns easily".
17:48:48 <elliott> <elliott> Vorpal: [[The word “inflammable” came from Latin “'inflammāre” = “to set fire to,” where the prefix “'in-”' means “in” as in “inside”, rather than “not” as in “invisible” and “ineligible”. Nonetheless, “inflammable” is often erroneously thought to mean “non-flammable”. To avoid this safety hazard, “flammable”, despite not being the proper Latin
17:48:48 <elliott> <elliott> erm, is now commonly used on warning labels when referring to physical combustibility.[1]]
17:48:53 <elliott> it has always meant burns easily
17:49:26 <elliott> inflammāre = inflammABLE, as in able to be inflammāre'd, as in able to be set fire to
17:49:52 <Vorpal> elliott, so you mean inaudibleable would be the right form?
17:50:23 <Vorpal> elliott, (I was joking)
17:50:50 <Vorpal> olsner, that would mean quiet according to that logic :P
17:52:13 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, I looked at inotify API. What is so bad about it? It is somewhat large due to supporting waiting for many different features. But given it's feature set it seems quite sane
17:52:45 <Vorpal> perhaps writing to the fd would have been a better way to tell it about stuff you wanted though
17:52:59 <elliott> Vorpal: I would have settled for blockuntilchanged("run"); :P
17:53:12 <elliott> Or even blockuntilchanged("run", BUC_PERM);
17:53:20 <Vorpal> elliott, well tricky for many files at once
17:53:34 <elliott> Vorpal: fork() and call blockuntilchanged() a lot
17:54:12 <elliott> Vorpal: well, hey, this is basically why svrun(8) exists
17:54:17 <elliott> Vorpal: because waitpid only takes one pid :)
17:54:17 <Vorpal> elliott, I believe upstart uses inotify btw. Also using gamin is probably a bad idea for a service supervisor. What if someone installs fam instead and then makes that start with the supervisor? ;P
17:54:52 <Vorpal> elliott, err, init *needs* to wait()
17:55:08 <Vorpal> elliott, otherwise you will gets lots of processes with status Z.
17:55:14 <elliott> Vorpal: well, yes. but i mean -
17:55:19 <elliott> it doesn't wait() to manage its services
17:55:24 <elliott> svrun(8) does that, one per service
17:55:32 <elliott> i am becoming less and less convinced of this design thanks to you, but
17:55:35 <elliott> it's more modular! totally! :P
17:55:50 <Vorpal> The wait() system call suspends execution of the calling process until one of its children terminates. The call wait(&status) is equivalent to:
17:55:50 <Vorpal> waitpid(-1, &status, 0);
17:55:57 <Vorpal> elliott, so you could use waitpid :P
17:56:20 <elliott> Vorpal: can i just say that setsid() and friends are the craziest thing ever?
17:57:39 <Vorpal> elliott, is that for process group?
17:57:59 <elliott> Vorpal: which are just... ugh
17:58:10 <Vorpal> I actually don't know what process groups are for, except that shell job control uses it
18:00:18 <elliott> Vorpal: to do with wait() and things, I *think*
18:00:33 <Vorpal> elliott, init needs to wait for any process though
18:00:58 <Vorpal> elliott, so I don't think init needs to care about it as such.
18:01:02 <elliott> Vorpal: In POSIX-conformant operating systems, a process group denotes a collection of one or more processes. Process groups are used to control the distribution of signals. A signal directed to a process group is delivered individually to all of the processes that are members of the group.
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18:01:16 <elliott> "Blah blah blah special case crap crap."
18:01:44 <Vorpal> elliott, well. who knows. It isn't something init needs to deal with I think.
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18:01:58 <elliott> Vorpal: although shutdown does
18:02:07 <elliott> Vorpal: it has to become process leader
18:02:12 <elliott> at least, well, some of them
18:02:17 <elliott> i've seen one shutdown that does it :D
18:02:21 <elliott> Vorpal: because otherwise it'd kill its parent
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18:02:46 <Vorpal> elliott, idea: check if existing init, shutdown and so on uses it, if no: ignore it. if yes: check to see what it does, and if it seems reasonable, do the same.
18:02:54 <Vorpal> elliott, for shutdown it seems reasonable for example
18:03:13 <elliott> Vorpal: well it's different with a service manager
18:03:16 <elliott> you can't just kill everything blindly
18:03:22 <elliott> so you have to kill stuff in the right order
18:03:40 <Vorpal> elliott, shouldn't shutdown simply tell the supervisor to do an ordered shutdown?
18:03:58 <elliott> Vorpal: no reason why the service manager should have anything to do with system halting
18:04:25 <elliott> Vorpal: shutdown is many things: "stop all services, sync, make filesystems read-only, kill all processes, tell the kernel to reboot"
18:04:25 <Vorpal> elliott, well, it needs to bring stuff down in an ordered fashion. chmod -x would be a bad idea because that would mess up the next boot
18:04:32 <elliott> Vorpal: the only one that has anything to do with the service manager is the first one
18:04:34 <Vorpal> so you need some other way to stop it respawning
18:04:41 <elliott> Vorpal: well, yes, so you kill svmg
18:04:44 <elliott> which kills all the svruns
18:04:53 <Vorpal> elliott, if it runs as pid 1 you get into problems :P
18:04:54 <elliott> which kills all the services
18:04:59 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, indeed - i thought of this
18:05:02 <elliott> Vorpal: I think I'm planning to do:
18:05:11 <Vorpal> elliott, separate init and supervisor?
18:05:17 <elliott> if (getpid() == 1) { if (fork()) hang_forever(); }
18:05:19 <elliott> Vorpal: no, just that in svmg
18:05:29 <elliott> sure you could make init a simple program that just forks and execs the service manager
18:05:38 <Vorpal> elliott, well init still must wait()
18:05:52 <elliott> Vorpal: well true. shut up i haven't figured out what to do yet :D
18:05:56 <elliott> Vorpal: this is rapidly turning into daemontools :)
18:06:01 <Vorpal> elliott, hang_forever() could be a wait() loop
18:06:26 <elliott> or runit, the sv(8) interface is basically identical to runit's...
18:06:32 <Vorpal> elliott, and well, if that wait detects that the fork has exited: "whops"
18:07:01 <elliott> Vorpal: the service management interface
18:07:09 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean that you do stuff like chmod -x ?
18:07:24 <elliott> # sv r tty1 (d then u (up))
18:07:31 <elliott> Vorpal: well it's just a frontend :
18:07:41 <Vorpal> elliott, what? A command wrapping a file system operation‽‽‽ How systemV-ish!
18:07:47 <elliott> Vorpal: sv d foo = chmod -x /sv/foo/run && kill $(cat /sv/foo/pid)
18:07:56 <elliott> Vorpal: well no, it does more than the plain fs operations! see above line :P
18:08:45 <Vorpal> elliott, presumably so does the the queue thingy. Like locking to prevent two users queueing something to print at the same time messing up stuff
18:09:05 <elliott> at least with mine it's easy to do manually
18:09:27 <Vorpal> elliott, well, if it isn't then it isn't just a file system command :P
18:10:54 <elliott> Vorpal: 3 seconds away from "fuck it i'm making init a shell script"
18:15:56 <elliott> Vorpal: blame gregor: #define DECIMALOF(t) ((sizeof(t)*8)/3)
18:17:33 <Vorpal> elliott, a shell script?
18:18:09 <elliott> Vorpal: char s[DECIMALOF(long)]; -- now s can hold the decimal representation of any long
18:18:11 <elliott> well, in this case unsigned long
18:18:16 <Vorpal> elliott, /sbin/init: ignore SIGKILL, spawn service manager, go into wait loop.
18:18:17 <elliott> Vorpal: including terminating 0
18:18:20 <Vorpal> that is about all for pid 1
18:18:22 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, /sbin/init: ignore SIGKILL, spawn service manager, go into wait loop.
18:18:36 <elliott> /sbin/init: start service programs, ignore SIGKILL, go into wait loop
18:18:41 <Vorpal> elliott, yes pid 1 can ignore sigkill
18:18:50 <elliott> <elliott> Vorpal: including terminating 0
18:19:16 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: char s[DECIMALOF(long)]; -- now s can hold the decimal representation of any long <-- ah cool
18:19:27 <elliott> Vorpal: tl;dr ((sizeof(t)*8)/3) is log_10(2^(t*8)) + 1 + a bit
18:19:32 <Vorpal> it should use CHAR_BITS
18:19:34 <elliott> where a bit increases every time
18:19:38 <elliott> it did in the previous one
18:19:56 <elliott> Vorpal: now tell me why pid_t is signed
18:20:02 <Vorpal> elliott, every time I use CHAR_BIT I first get a compile time error because CHAR_BITS is undefied :P
18:20:06 <elliott> (it is *required* to be signed)
18:20:42 <Vorpal> elliott, well how else would you be able to use negative values to mean special things :P
18:20:47 <Vorpal> (note: not saying this is a good idea)
18:20:53 <Vorpal> (but it is what is done iirc)
18:21:03 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah e.g. waitpid(-1, ...)
18:21:08 <elliott> Vorpal: why not do it like getchar
18:21:14 <Vorpal> elliott, and -1 from fork to mean "couldn't fork" iirc
18:21:23 <elliott> could be smaller than PID_T_MAX
18:21:34 <elliott> what is it with c's obsession of using special values
18:21:40 <elliott> what's wrong with multiple functions
18:21:56 <Vorpal> elliott, getchar returns a signed int though
18:22:14 <elliott> Vorpal: but a signed int can definitely store a char in its positive values
18:22:15 <Vorpal> elliott, in fact char is signed on my systems at least.
18:22:18 <elliott> i love how char can be signed
18:22:30 <Vorpal> <elliott> i love how char can be signed <elliott> ugh <elliott> fuck unix
18:22:37 <Vorpal> changed your mind in the middle?
18:22:47 <Vorpal> or just sarcastic to begin with?
18:23:13 <elliott> Vorpal: you can tell these posix people were all -- oh, let's be accepting, who knows what exciting futuristic systems will appear using this leeway?
18:23:20 <Vorpal> elliott, actually char being signed is the most consistent option. Since int and long are signed
18:23:20 <elliott> Vorpal: and then they go and restrain it in far less trivial matters
18:23:23 <elliott> thus making the whole thing moot
18:23:29 <elliott> because they're idiots, see.
18:23:40 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, actually char being signed is the most consistent option. Since int and long are signed
18:23:48 <elliott> ok but have uchar be the type of char IO stuff
18:23:57 <Vorpal> elliott, I agree on that
18:24:08 <Vorpal> elliott, typedef unsigned char uchar; I guess
18:24:20 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah. and while we're at it, can we have iN mean intN_t?
18:24:30 <elliott> uN for uintN_t? just trying to get some more readability in here...
18:24:36 <Vorpal> elliott, typedef is your friend
18:24:46 <Vorpal> elliott, that and stdint.h from C99
18:24:52 <elliott> Vorpal: sure, and it should be the POSIX/C committees' friend too
18:24:55 <olsner> elliott: some do use that convention, yes
18:25:02 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, I meant, have iN instead of intN_t and the like
18:25:10 <elliott> Vorpal: really what we need to do is s/char/byte/
18:25:19 <elliott> biggest mistake of them all it hink
18:25:21 <Vorpal> elliott, well. they couldn't add it outside a header, that would break stuff
18:25:34 <elliott> Vorpal: i'm speaking from a time machine perspective
18:25:37 <elliott> go back in time, fix shit before it happens
18:26:20 <elliott> printf("spawned pid %d\n",p);
18:26:26 * elliott wonders wtf this program is doing in minit
18:26:26 <Vorpal> elliott, erlang gets it right there. Strings have nothing to do with byte arrays. Nor does it with lists as such. You can use a byte array to encode a string of course, But that is quite different from byte arrays being strings
18:26:52 <elliott> Vorpal: the problem with unicode is that it's fucked up to use, not even codepoints = actual characters
18:27:04 <elliott> and with arabic, just give up and shoot yourself
18:27:10 <Vorpal> "foo" is [$f, $o, $o ] (where $f means ascii value of f and so on) <<"foo">> would be a byte array of foo
18:27:14 <elliott> it's more everyone else's fault rather than unicode :)
18:27:35 <Vorpal> elliott, without combining stuff they would get combinatorial explosion
18:27:52 <elliott> Vorpal: some would argue they already have :)
18:28:31 <Vorpal> elliott, yes, for compatibility in a lot of the cases.
18:28:52 <Vorpal> which you need. Otherwise no one will use the thing.
18:29:00 <Vorpal> because it would be too much work.
18:29:22 * elliott forgot to seed tru64, restarts it (ratio = 0.77)
18:29:38 <elliott> Vorpal: found an alpha emulator that works?
18:29:45 <elliott> CHARON-AXP is enterprisey to the max and i couldn't get it going
18:30:26 <elliott> heh, fefe actually replaced /bin/sh in minit because it's slow
18:32:36 <elliott> write something to /proc/1/fd/3 and read answer from /proc/1/fd/4"
18:32:40 <elliott> now that's IPC i can get behind
18:35:05 <olsner> nice, $1000 to $8000 to extend your tru64 license to charon-axp
18:36:25 <elliott> olsner: go find an alpha emulator that works that we can either pirate or get free
18:39:05 <olsner> shouldn't there be a bunch of open-source emulators with alpha support?
18:39:23 <Vorpal> elliott, had no time to check for one
18:39:25 <elliott> olsner: i have not found one yet.
18:39:27 <Vorpal> elliott, been writing a report today
18:39:34 <elliott> olsner: qemu-alpha exists but not qemu-system-alpha
18:40:35 <elliott> olsner: i.e. qemu can run alpha linux binaries
18:40:35 <Vorpal> elliott, the course uses python. But I think the teacher dislikes the language. At one point in a lecture he paused and said "or am I mixing that up with haskell?" about some behaviour (forgot which behaviour)
18:40:38 <elliott> but not emulate an alpha system
18:41:30 <Vorpal> elliott, oh and we have another course using C++, but it is quite apparent that the teacher prefers something else, objc style or such I suspect. But orders from higher up it seems...
18:41:52 <elliott> Vorpal: compile a haskell implementation to python somehow
18:41:59 <olsner> hmm, plus points for referring to haskell, but how the hell can you mix up haskell and python?
18:41:59 <elliott> submit all assignments written in haskell bundled with that
18:42:10 <elliott> olsner: "about some behaviour"
18:42:30 <Vorpal> olsner, I don't know. He was saying something about range() being lazy or some such iirc. And then that comment.
18:42:52 <Vorpal> elliott, no it isn't. Only python 3 on lab computers
18:43:03 * Vorpal waits for elliott to explode
18:43:45 <Vorpal> elliott, most of them run windows so I doubt it.
18:44:31 <Vorpal> elliott, btw, during the first lecture the teacher in the course using python said "I would have preferred LISP but then half the course would have been spent learning it first"
18:45:20 <Vorpal> true, he didn't actually shout it :P
18:45:39 <olsner> so instead you spend half the course learning python? :)
18:46:01 <elliott> olsner: it's so inchewittive
18:46:56 <Vorpal> elliott, also he has the beefiest laptop (though I hesitate to call a 17" that) I have ever seen. It has huge air exhausts on the back. He said something about that he has a course using GPU programming as well though. So that might be why.
18:47:18 <elliott> or he's just a gaming loser :P
18:48:39 <Sgeo> elliott, should I learn Common Lisp?
18:49:08 <Vorpal> elliott, he doesn't look like the type
18:49:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, can you PLEASE make your mind up about SOMETHING just once, ever?
18:49:16 <elliott> Sgeo: how about we try this magical thing where
18:49:21 <elliott> you think about a decision
18:49:28 <elliott> and then decide it paying NO ATTENTION AT ALL to who agrees or not
18:49:33 <Phantom_Hoover> You know, we aren't you're personal thinking assistant.
18:49:36 <elliott> instead using logic and your judgement
18:49:45 <elliott> because opinions don't matter if they're wrong
18:50:03 <Vorpal> elliott, but that laptop looks like the only step up would be a w700ds or whatever the insane lenovo model is called. And even then it would only be a step up in insanity. It would be a step down in air exhaust size
18:51:00 <Vorpal> elliott, you how 12 cell batteries? The air exhaust thingy sticks out about as much behind the monitor. If only I knew the brand...
18:51:07 <Vorpal> acer or asus or some such I think
18:52:58 <Vorpal> <elliott> because opinions don't matter if they're wrong <-- are you saying your opinions *are* wrong?
18:53:43 <elliott> Vorpal: if they're wrong, then yes.
18:53:50 <elliott> they probably aren't though, 'cuz i'm a genius
18:53:52 <Vorpal> elliott, alternatively: <Sgeo> Hm good idea. ... I decided to not make more decisions and start asking everyone again!
18:54:16 <elliott> if Sgeo ever lost his internet connection and was like
18:54:20 <Vorpal> elliott, or alternative alternatively: <Sgeo> Should I make up my own mind?
18:54:36 <elliott> <Sgeo> I decided that based on evidence A, B, and C, that D. Is this correct?
18:55:11 <Vorpal> elliott, would be funny. But just waaay to unrealistic. Too sensible :P
18:56:30 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway that more/more vs. less/fewer thing bothers me in English. Swedish is consistent there. Separate words for both.
18:56:46 <elliott> I don't think I can get a silent computer of the power I want even if I empty my account :P
18:56:56 <elliott> Vorpal: i'd prefer more/more less/less to be honest
18:57:02 <Vorpal> elliott, uh easy solution: kvm extended
18:57:03 <elliott> even if it does sound a bit odd
18:57:16 <elliott> Vorpal: lame, i want to twiddle bits
18:57:22 <Vorpal> elliott, so you put it in the next room. Unless you have paper walls...
18:57:56 <Vorpal> elliott, well, reset button shouldn't be required. And isn't very often. When it is you could get up and walk 10 steps :P
18:57:56 -!- Decarabia has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
18:57:58 <elliott> "next room" is the landing
18:58:06 <elliott> i can't really think of anywhere it would go without HUEG CABLE
18:58:09 <Vorpal> elliott, btw did you see tru64 to 1.0 ratio or better?
18:58:16 <elliott> Vorpal: bah! that would ruin my figure
18:58:28 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
18:58:29 <Vorpal> elliott, ah good. I seeded to 1.50
18:58:30 <elliott> forgot to put it on this morning, restarted it a while ago like i said
18:58:38 <Vorpal> elliott, hm missed that you said that
18:59:12 <elliott> hmm, regular desktop/gamer ram isn't ECC is it?
18:59:15 <elliott> I'll have to buy server RAM
18:59:35 <Vorpal> elliott, regular desktop mobos often don't make good use of ECC according to djb
18:59:51 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah, i've seen. but not from the reliable manufacturers, i don't think
18:59:53 <Vorpal> elliott, as in they detect it and run with it.
18:59:59 <elliott> Vorpal: e.g. I'd expect an ASUS board that claims to support ECC to work fine
19:00:04 -!- Decarabia has joined.
19:00:10 <Vorpal> elliott, you probably don't want a server mobo though
19:00:11 <elliott> Vorpal: he was more singling out a few manufacturers i'd never heard of, probably cheapy sorta stuff
19:00:15 <elliott> Vorpal: also that page is quite old
19:00:46 <Vorpal> elliott, I know someone who bought a server mobo. Performance was awesome but sound level of the fans required? uh...
19:01:08 <elliott> Vorpal: and the BIOS takes 2 minutes!</reference>
19:01:14 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
19:01:16 <Vorpal> elliott, yes they often do
19:01:21 <Vorpal> elliott, but what is the reference?
19:01:27 <Vorpal> elliott, I seen that behaviour myself
19:01:43 <Vorpal> so it seems more like a fact rather than a reference
19:02:10 <elliott> 09:26:40 <elliott> " On typical PC servers a reboot is
19:02:11 <elliott> 09:26:40 <elliott> quite lengthy: the BIOS takes two minutes, the kernel takes 20 seconds, and
19:02:11 <elliott> 09:26:40 <elliott> the boot scripts take 30-90 seconds."
19:02:11 <elliott> 09:26:45 * elliott wonders what kind of bios takes that long
19:02:11 <elliott> 09:29:25 <olsner> a server bios? :)
19:02:11 <elliott> 09:29:33 <elliott> olsner: still! :)
19:02:13 <elliott> 09:29:52 <elliott> admittedly this is from 2004, but still
19:02:15 <elliott> 09:30:16 <Vorpal> elliott, hi.
19:02:38 <Vorpal> elliott, I even saw one that displayed system information and then did a 30 second count down waiting for you to press keys to enter bios setup before continuing boot!
19:02:54 <Vorpal> elliott, couldn't be turned off
19:03:18 <elliott> yup seems Desktop Memory newegg category has no ecc
19:03:31 <Vorpal> elliott, but IPMI or whatever it is called is nice
19:03:38 <elliott> "But dude, server RAM is *slow*!"
19:03:40 <Vorpal> elliott, you actually get *names* for the sensors
19:03:51 <elliott> i love how you can get fast ram. just hilarious
19:04:00 <Vorpal> rather than temp1, temp2, temp3, fan1, fan2, fan3
19:04:40 <Vorpal> elliott, because the names are provided by the board.
19:05:04 <Vorpal> elliott, why would server ram be slow?
19:05:07 <elliott> Vorpal: i would buy a motherboard called smörgåsbord
19:05:16 <elliott> Vorpal: it isn't, it's just that desktop ram (can be) "fast"
19:05:18 <elliott> CAS latency, timings, blah blah blah
19:05:43 <Vorpal> elliott, hm I should manufacture one then price it very high
19:05:48 <Vorpal> because it was one of a kind :P
19:06:04 <Vorpal> still, should give me a nice profit since you did a blanket statement there
19:06:29 <elliott> cheapest amd processor: " AMD Sempron 140 Sargas 2.7GHz Socket AM3 45W Single-Core Processor SDX140HBGQBOX
19:06:47 <Vorpal> elliott, I wonder how much cache non-semprons have then
19:06:56 <Vorpal> elliott, considering that is a lot more than my old sempron has
19:07:08 <Vorpal> less than the core2 duo in my laptop
19:07:12 <elliott> Vorpal: not as much per core actually for the phenoms!
19:07:14 <elliott> Vorpal: but then they have l3 cache
19:08:02 <Vorpal> elliott, even that old p3 I have has twice as much cache
19:08:06 <elliott> someone oughta go into business selling processors that aren't intel and don't suck
19:08:28 <Vorpal> elliott, well, sempron is their cheap line
19:08:37 <Vorpal> elliott, a phenom would suck less
19:08:52 <elliott> Vorpal: oh, i meant in general
19:08:58 <elliott> phenoms suck because they're really hot and power-consuming
19:09:12 <elliott> well so are the lower end ones
19:09:17 <elliott> but the phenoms even moreso
19:09:24 <Vorpal> elliott, so get a supermegaultraextraspecialplus
19:09:51 <Vorpal> I can't think of more words like that to add
19:10:03 <elliott> Vorpal: supermegaultraextraspecialplus *what*?
19:10:21 <Vorpal> elliott, joking about silly name for the megahalem replacement
19:10:44 <elliott> Vorpal: the problem is airflow, even if you have the biggest heatsinks ever, if they're too close and no air is blowing...
19:10:46 <elliott> this is why you use heatpipes
19:11:31 <Vorpal> elliott, or hm... hook it up the the AC of the building? If it has that
19:11:55 <elliott> Vorpal: this is britain, why would we need *cooling down*? :)
19:11:58 <Vorpal> I'm sure this is a terrible idea, but I can't think of why
19:12:21 <Vorpal> elliott, here we could just put a heatsink on the roof for all but 3 months of the year
19:12:43 <Vorpal> of course, you could do it all year around. Doesn't it rain over there almost always?
19:12:55 <elliott> Vorpal: absolutely, in fact we're permanently wet
19:13:00 <elliott> usually we just drench our carpets so we feel like we fit in
19:13:16 <Vorpal> hm, actually snow is a good insulator iirc. So the roof thing wouldn't work very well
19:13:16 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway no reason you can't just put the heatsink on the roof in the summer time
19:13:27 <elliott> it's away from the components, that's what's important
19:13:28 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed not in the summer
19:13:29 <elliott> doesn't matter how hot it is
19:13:46 <elliott> Vorpal: i mean, as long as you're not totally overtaxing it
19:13:53 <elliott> but if you get a big enough radiator, it shouldn't be an issue
19:13:55 <Vorpal> elliott, wouldn't it be too hot. You know. What would make the heat travel?
19:14:04 <Vorpal> elliott, the temperature difference
19:14:16 <Vorpal> and if the "cool" end isn't very cool...
19:14:24 <Vorpal> it couldn't work very well
19:15:26 <Vorpal> elliott, say it is 30 C outside in the shadow (this happens for about 1 week in late July or early August in Sweden most summers). Then if it is on the roof and the sun is shining directly on it, it will be considerably hotter.
19:15:44 <Vorpal> which means cooling wouldn't really work
19:16:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm thinking heatpipes and passive heatsink here
19:16:25 <Vorpal> during the winter it would work very well probably
19:17:22 <elliott> Vorpal: well ok it does need to cool
19:17:27 <elliott> 30 C is probably not workable
19:17:41 <elliott> Vorpal: but if you have a heatsink on the roof why not just put a gigantic fan on it...
19:18:32 <Vorpal> elliott, because I'm on the upper floor and it would be just 2-3 meters away
19:18:49 <elliott> Vorpal: have it go at like 2rpm :P
19:19:11 <Vorpal> elliott, wouldn't do anything much then would it?
19:19:51 <elliott> Vorpal: could just watercool
19:19:54 <elliott> Vorpal: put the pump on the roof
19:20:01 <elliott> Vorpal: i doubt any pump could be loud enough to hear from 2-3 meters away
19:20:49 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway with the 45 degree slope on this roof it would be tricky
19:21:50 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway is water cooling loud or?
19:22:02 <elliott> Vorpal: if you use fans yes. if you don't, no
19:22:20 <elliott> Vorpal: "passively", you have a big radiator, and a pretty quiet pump
19:22:30 <Vorpal> elliott, and no air in the system
19:22:32 <elliott> Vorpal: away from the pump, the only "noise" is coolant passing through the soft circular pipes
19:22:38 <elliott> Vorpal: which i'm sure you'll agree is noiseless :P
19:23:21 <Vorpal> elliott, depends. running the water tap on full certainly isn't silent in the next room
19:23:22 <fizzie> But it's still a moving part.
19:23:31 <elliott> Vorpal: hardly the same situation
19:23:33 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, how would that help actual cooling as such?
19:23:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But it's still etc.
19:24:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it needs the opposite end to be cool
19:24:12 <Vorpal> anyway passive is more fun
19:24:56 <Vorpal> elliott, somehow some core2 duo cpus manage to make a tiny high pitched noise when entering C4
19:25:17 <elliott> Vorpal: capacitor noise and shit.
19:25:25 <elliott> Vorpal: in fact people who silence their computers end up hearing *LCD whine* (not kidding)
19:25:39 <Vorpal> elliott, hah. I heard the cpu noise sometimes on my thinkpad
19:25:45 <elliott> Vorpal: after they solve that, well... some purport to hearing the capacitors, but who can tell between that and tinnitus?
19:26:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I can tell by watching powertop that it is related to wakeups from C4
19:26:37 <Vorpal> and that with thousand of wakeups per second from deeper sleep state it sounds kind of like a CRT
19:27:41 <Vorpal> elliott, also some usb stuff cause it
19:28:00 <fizzie> You could also just deliberately deafen yourself.
19:28:10 <elliott> Tinnitus + deaf. HELL YEAH
19:28:33 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm sure it isn't tunnitus. well known mobile Core 2 Duo issue
19:28:56 <Vorpal> elliott, and limiting deepest cstate with the boot parameter works
19:29:00 <fizzie> Could you theoretically speaking build some sort of concatenated-peltier-elements tube to move heat far enough away?
19:29:20 <olsner> hmm, the Blue Waters supercomputer will total around 9.6TB of on-die L3 cache
19:29:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, possibly but you would need a hell of a lot of cooling at the remote end I think
19:29:49 <Vorpal> olsner, how many CPUs?
19:29:57 <elliott> olsner: now make it persistent!
19:30:04 <olsner> Vorpal: that's 300000 times 32MB
19:30:15 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, you could do Peltier cooling. But... not very practical.
19:30:20 <Vorpal> olsner, 300 000 CPUs!?
19:30:32 <Vorpal> olsner, how many dedicated power plants?
19:30:56 <fizzie> elliott: Were're going solid-state with disks, why not cooling too. Just out of principle, I mean.
19:31:09 <Vorpal> elliott, liquid nitrogen cooling. Don't forget to refill though
19:31:19 <elliott> fizzie: Yes... we're talking about solid-state coolers.
19:31:21 <elliott> fizzie: Copper heatpipes + radiator.
19:31:26 <elliott> fizzie: Far more practical than Peltier.
19:31:35 <elliott> fizzie: And done in practice, too, many times.
19:31:56 <elliott> Can I just say that hyperthreading is genius?
19:32:00 <Vorpal> elliott, peltier has been done in practise. So has liquid nitrogen
19:32:17 <elliott> "Darn, we have all this time when the CPU is just hung waiting for IO." "Uhh... can't we just run other code while that happens?" "...sure, why not."
19:32:25 <Vorpal> <elliott> Can I just say that hyperthreading is genius? <-- except that it doesn't work very well iirc
19:32:47 <elliott> Vorpal: most of the flames against it were from idiots
19:32:54 <Vorpal> elliott, so why wasn't it in core 2 duo?
19:32:58 <elliott> Vorpal: basically if what you're doing is CPU-bound, of course it won't help
19:33:03 <elliott> Vorpal: if what you're doing is IO-bound, it helps immensely
19:33:09 <elliott> since all that time waiting for IO is spent running code
19:33:12 <Vorpal> elliott, memory bound too
19:33:27 <elliott> Vorpal: well, Pentium 4 was single-core
19:33:32 <Vorpal> IO bound: doubt it would help much. It would be up to system calls anyway
19:33:32 <elliott> Hyperthreading is more useful with multiple cores, I'd say
19:33:38 <elliott> since it's mainly helpful for parallel tasks
19:33:46 <elliott> anyway Core 2 had a lot of things and didn't have a lot of other things
19:33:52 <elliott> I don't think hyperthreading worked very well in the Pentium 4
19:33:55 <elliott> like most things about the P4
19:33:57 <Vorpal> elliott, core 2 was damn good though
19:34:15 <elliott> one of the best processor innovations i can remember
19:34:25 <Vorpal> elliott, very good performer. The mario of CPUs. (see tvtropes if you have no idea what I'm talking about)
19:34:43 <elliott> Vorpal: btw, Core 2 is being discontinued this year
19:34:53 <elliott> [[With the launch of 32 nm processors in the upcoming months, Intel has scheduled to discontinue some Atom, Celeron, Pentium, Core 2, and even Core i7 models. The Core 2 Quad Q8200, Q8200S, Q9400, and Q9400S are scheduled to be discontinued in 2010.[9] Intel may also rebadge some Core 2 processors in the E7xxx, E8xxx, Q8xxx, Q9xxx and Wolfdale series as Core i3 processors, together with new Core i3 pro
19:34:55 <elliott> cessors using the 45 nm Nehalem microarchitecture.[10][11]]]
19:34:59 <Vorpal> elliott, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheMario
19:35:02 <elliott> Vorpal: eh. Nehalem is better
19:35:12 <elliott> Vorpal: but stop buying Intel! :)
19:35:44 <elliott> no, instead deal with crappy processors
19:35:44 <Vorpal> elliott, I haven't bought Intel for desktop for years
19:35:48 <elliott> because your illusion of freedom is REAL!
19:35:55 <elliott> (note: illusion of freedom actually illusory.)
19:36:09 <Vorpal> elliott, opencores or something
19:36:36 <elliott> Vorpal: well, Sun opened up those SPARC processors
19:36:37 <elliott> and they're actually useful
19:36:46 <Vorpal> elliott, before oracle I assume?
19:37:22 <elliott> Four fully open source implementations of the SPARC architecture exist.
19:37:24 <elliott> * LEON, a 32-bit, single-thread SPARC Version 8 implementation, designed especially for space use. Source code is written in VHDL, and licensed under the GPL.
19:37:24 <elliott> * RAMP Gold, a 32-bit, 64-thread SPARC Version 8 implementation, designed for FPGA-based architecture simulation. RAMP Gold is written in ~36,000 lines of Systemverilog, and licensed under the BSD licenses.
19:37:24 <elliott> * OpenSPARC T1, released in 2006, a 64-bit, 32-thread implementation conforming to the UltraSPARC Architecture 2005 and to SPARC Version 9 (Level 1). Source code is written in Verilog, and licensed under many licenses. Most OpenSPARC T1 source code is licensed under the GPL. Source based on existent open source projects will continue to be licensed under their current licenses. Binary programs are
19:37:26 <elliott> licensed under a binary software license agreement.
19:37:29 <elliott> o S1, a 64-bit Wishbone compliant CPU core based on the OpenSPARC T1 design. It is a single UltraSPARC v9 core capable of 4 way SMT. Like the T1, the source code is licensed under the GPL.
19:37:31 <elliott> * OpenSPARC T2, released in 2008, a 64-bit, 64-thread implementation conforming to the UltraSPARC Architecture 2007 and to SPARC Version 9 (Level 1). Source code is written in Verilog, and licensed under many licenses. Most OpenSPARC T2 source code is licensed under the GPL. Source based on existent open source projects will continue to be licensed under their current licenses. Binary programs are
19:37:35 <elliott> licensed under a binary Software License Agreement.
19:37:36 <olsner> the interesting parts are probably patented, just in case anyone manages to do something useful with the opencore thing
19:37:37 <elliott> opensparc are the sun ones
19:37:42 <elliott> # UltraSPARC T1 – Sun's first multicore and multithread CPU (code-named "Niagara")
19:37:44 <elliott> # UltraSPARC T2 – The successor to T1
19:37:46 -!- elliott has left (?).
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19:38:07 <Vorpal> elliott, "The [Peltier] effect is used in satellites and spacecraft to counter the effect of direct sunlight on one side of a craft by dissipating the heat over the cold shaded side, whereupon the heat is dissipated by thermal radiation into space."
19:38:27 <fizzie> I'm sure open-source in hardware design will really get going as soon as they make it possible to reify designs with the press of a button. Maybe with some sort of progammable Star Trek replicator.
19:38:57 <olsner> I thought fpga:s already did that?
19:39:10 <Vorpal> elliott, this is quite interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_cooling#Uses
19:39:41 <elliott> Field Programmable Gates Array
19:40:00 <Vorpal> what he said was correct
19:40:10 <elliott> Vorpal: e.g. plural of Surgeon General isn't Surgeon Generals
19:40:11 <Vorpal> and who cares about them
19:40:23 <elliott> A is Array, an adjective (the field programmable gates are array)
19:40:29 <elliott> so it's field programmable gates array
19:40:34 <Vorpal> elliott, he used the Swedish construct to make plural of abbreviations
19:40:47 <Vorpal> it would be FPGA:er in Swedish
19:41:08 <elliott> i like how Vorpal is listening to me
19:41:17 <Vorpal> elliott, no I have a silly filter :P
19:42:09 <elliott> all plurals should be like Surgeons General really
19:42:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about that open thingy to make stuff in plastic
19:42:29 <elliott> (FEAR... #esoteric's member)
19:42:43 <Vorpal> elliott, what is suregons general?
19:43:05 <elliott> Vorpal: Surgeons General is the plural of Surgeon General.
19:43:17 <fizzie> Vorpal: I've forgotten the name also, but it still has some way to go before you can print a processor with it.
19:43:18 <elliott> For instance, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surgeon_General_of_the_United_States
19:43:20 <elliott> Vorpal: no, it actually is
19:43:24 <elliott> "Surgeon Generals" is incorrect
19:43:25 <Vorpal> elliott, I guess it is due to military word order?
19:43:39 <elliott> Vorpal: Surgeon General = the General Surgeon
19:43:43 <fizzie> There was a hand-built "3D printer" at one stand at Altparty, I think.
19:43:43 <Vorpal> elliott, sane word order would be "General Suregons" yeah
19:43:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I KNOW BUT SHUT UP
19:43:59 <elliott> fizzie: They got it to print circuits.
19:44:19 <Vorpal> and what was the name?
19:44:36 <Vorpal> has everyone forgot the name?
19:44:43 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.google.com/search?q=self-replicating+3d+printer
19:44:59 <elliott> Vorpal: "courts martial" too
19:45:13 <Vorpal> elliott, yes you are insane
19:45:21 <Vorpal> not you as in first person
19:45:40 <Vorpal> not you as in second person *singular*
19:46:53 <fizzie> The first-person you, for all you out-of-body travellers.
19:47:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, or time travelers
19:48:07 <elliott> Vorpal: There is no second person plural in English, however in many variant languages -- mainly American -- "y'all" is.
19:48:10 <Vorpal> izzie, or time travellers
19:48:44 <fizzie> Izzie sounds very lizardy.
19:49:00 <Vorpal> I couldn't see what I was typing :P
19:49:15 <Vorpal> so up arrow and then wtf
19:49:40 <Vorpal> elliott, doesn't English have second person plural = second person singular
19:50:09 <elliott> "y'all" is unambiguous but hicky :)
19:52:04 <elliott> Vorpal: hick-esque. of or akin to the manners of a hick
19:52:24 <Vorpal> hm reprap is version 2 now.
19:52:30 <Vorpal> a lot more interesting than the old one indeed
19:54:43 <fizzie> Vorpal: Incidentally, here's the underground tree I mentioned: http://zem.fi/~fis/subtree1.png http://zem.fi/~fis/subtree2.png
19:55:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, very nice. Do you need the torches as well, or would the sunlight be enough?
19:55:48 <fizzie> I think it should be enough for it to grow.
19:55:55 <fizzie> But of course then it'd be pretty dark down there at night-time.
19:56:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, the waterfall doesn't go all the way up?
19:56:28 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, incidentally, FS2 no longer crashes my computer.
19:56:34 <fizzie> No, it comes out of the wall at one point.
19:56:41 <fizzie> You can swim up it, of course.
20:01:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: The 3D printer at altparty was in fact a built RepRap, it seems.
20:01:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, version 1 or 2?
20:04:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: It was made by the folks of Helsinki Hacklab, which is this 100-square-metres apartment filled with tools and other such stuff, for people who like to build stuff but don't have suitable spaces in their homes.
20:05:12 <fizzie> It also "almost works".
20:05:51 <fizzie> They had it with them at Assembly, and it didn't work there; at Altparty it I think sort-of maybe worked.
20:05:55 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreeSpace_2_Source_Code_Project
20:05:57 <elliott> Platform(s) Linux, Mac OS X, Windows
20:06:21 * Vorpal puts it on queue of cool things to try
20:06:32 <Phantom_Hoover> They're not DRMed or anything, though, so torrenting is trivial
20:06:45 <elliott> fizzie: http://zem.fi/~fis/subtree2.png Not that deep! :P
20:07:12 <Vorpal> elliott, uh, looks like 10 above the bedrock or such?
20:07:22 <fizzie> Something like 10, right.
20:07:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, pretty near the sea level at the top right?
20:07:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: No, it's actually pretty far up.
20:07:47 <elliott> fizzie: Why not build the tree on bedrock? :P
20:08:04 <fizzie> Vorpal: A moment and I'll screen-shot.
20:08:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, also how did you dig that? I found vertical shafts a pita to dig without risk of dying
20:08:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, also lots of pickaxes for 4x4 that long
20:09:05 <fizzie> Vorpal: No health-checks in multiplayer. :p
20:09:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes but emptying it is kind of tricky I found. Even if starting from the top
20:09:26 <fizzie> (Though I built a 5x5 vertical shaft with no falls. It's not like you have to dig blocks below yourself.)
20:09:34 <fizzie> Also infinite diamond pickaxes.
20:09:43 <fizzie> 8 blocks from top of bedrock to the tree.
20:09:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, I tried multiplayer yesterday but I hit a sheep, saw the wool fall and then couldn't pick the wool up
20:10:03 <elliott> Multiplayer for Vorpal here means single-player multiplayer.
20:10:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, then later another sheep turned into a pig and then back into a sheep
20:10:17 <fizzie> Yes, it's not very finished yet.
20:10:19 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I tried local server, because I didn't know any good one
20:10:38 <elliott> I'm sure fizzie will be glad to have you on his server!
20:11:05 <Phantom_Hoover> You know, maybe I should just stop using a laptop for everything.
20:11:52 <fizzie> elliott: I don't run it, I don't know how that goes.
20:12:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Do you ever actually move it?
20:12:31 <Vorpal> you could use a beefed up laptop and external monitor
20:12:50 <elliott> Vorpal: eliminates portability
20:12:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I don't actually think this laptop *can* be beefed up.
20:13:41 <Vorpal> laptops seldom can be beefed up much compared to when you buy them very much apart from adding more ram or replacing hdd.
20:13:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I already have a portable laptop, so getting another and then making it stationary seems like overkill.
20:13:54 <Vorpal> service manual stuff tends to be about replacing with same
20:14:06 <Vorpal> and replacing with better is unlikely to wkrk
20:14:18 <fizzie> Vorpal: Okay, maybe "far up" was a bit of an exaggeration: http://zem.fi/~fis/subtree3.png (The blue thing in the corner is sea-level, and the glass thing is the roof of the tree place, so that's about 20-25 blocks above sea.)
20:14:26 <Vorpal> elliott, the keys are diagonally next to each other :P
20:14:46 <elliott> I would buy a supercomputer just to get the highest-quality Minecraft.
20:15:07 <Vorpal> somehow I read that as
20:15:18 <elliott> fizzie: Looks very high up to me. Cloud-level.
20:15:19 <elliott> fizzie: Looks very high up to me. Cloud-level.
20:15:39 <Vorpal> I thought cloud was above the max altitude...
20:15:47 <Vorpal> just above the max altitude
20:15:50 <fizzie> You can go pretty far above clouds.
20:15:54 <elliott> I've been above a cloud before.
20:16:06 <elliott> Just -- the cloud was at, like, leg level.
20:16:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, is it random between games or?
20:16:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, because I was at max altitude and clouds were just above me I know...
20:16:58 <fizzie> I think it's different between singleplayer/multiplayer.
20:17:05 <fizzie> It might also be randomized for single-player games.
20:17:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, don't play any single player
20:18:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: Not much. This is how far up you can build, at least on this server: http://zem.fi/~fis/subtree4.png
20:19:07 <fizzie> Okay, it's pretty hard to judge distances down, I don't think that other house peak is at maximum level.
20:19:34 <Vorpal> eh. Doesn't look like altitude is 127 above bedrock there
20:19:40 <Vorpal> unless your ocean is very high
20:20:37 <elliott> fizzie's name is Fizzie Fizzie.
20:20:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: 'cuz itz rad
20:21:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, also why do you build wooden houses that large? I get the point for early game shelter
20:21:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I bought it. So yes.
20:21:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, it can burn easily though
20:21:39 <fizzie> Some people prefer more natural, living materials.
20:21:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, what? reeds? cactuses?
20:22:15 <fizzie> I have in my single-player game a 2x2 log-trunk in the middle of my otherwise-stone building.
20:22:34 <elliott> <fizzie> Some people prefer more natural, living materials.
20:22:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, personally I go for "creeper-proof" which means I test with TNT just outside to make sure it is safe. Which means obsidian for the lower parts of the walls
20:23:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes but that doesn't risk the whole thing burning down :P
20:24:19 <Vorpal> what I would like is moving structures, like a drawbridge or such
20:24:20 <fizzie> Vorpal: This is a maximum-height shaft on that server: http://zem.fi/~fis/subtree5.png -- the platform the picture was taken from is 3 blocks down from the highest possible build altitude, and the platform at bottom is about 4 blocks above top of bedrock.
20:24:26 <fizzie> (It's a landing platform for jumping down.)
20:24:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, you need to add water there when notch implements health :P
20:25:08 <fizzie> I'm waiting for a cloud to pass through the tower so that I can count how much higher the top of the tower is from the clouds; I just missed getting a screenshot of one.
20:25:33 <Vorpal> *through* the tower. Hah
20:25:41 <Vorpal> In any other game it would be considered a bug
20:25:42 <fizzie> Well, they don't bother going around.
20:25:56 <fizzie> It's a bit annoying, actually, they reduce the visibility by quite a lot.
20:26:47 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, how did you pay? Surely you don't have a credit card?
20:27:11 <Vorpal> hm that's an interesting question indeed
20:27:37 <elliott> I might patent "a system by which a credit card is permitted to be used to purchase goods in exchange for the total cash sum of the purchase."
20:27:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: Oh, I have a rooftop tree too: http://zem.fi/~fis/subtree6.png
20:27:54 <elliott> (Well, I do have a "card", one of those Switch or Solo or whatever it is, but it's not as if anything accepts it.)
20:28:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, what happens if you place a sapling at max alt?
20:28:23 <fizzie> Vorpal: No idea. Maybe it won't grow much. Maybe it will crash the game.
20:28:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: Incidentally, there's a cloud now: the max alt is ~15 blocks from the top of the cloud.
20:28:54 <Vorpal> hm someone with nice bw and memory should start an esoteric minecraft server. Except that we have too many people not interested in that type of gameplay
20:29:17 <Vorpal> or not inside the tower?
20:29:25 <fizzie> I didn't happen to be inside.
20:29:29 <Sgeo> Building a BF interpreter in Minecraft?
20:29:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah, gave up waiting?
20:29:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: Went to take that rooftop tree picture.
20:30:16 <elliott> <elliott> I might patent "a system by which a credit card is permitted to be used to purchase goods in exchange for the total cash sum of the purchase."
20:30:25 <elliott> <Vorpal> hm someone with nice bw and memory should start an esoteric minecraft server. Except that we have too many people not interested in that type of gameplay
20:30:29 <elliott> I'll put it on the server once I get it going...
20:30:40 <elliott> I doubt it requires *that* much memory :P
20:31:03 * Sgeo bibbles at reddit downness
20:31:04 <fizzie> Vorpal: The brick chimney there goes straight down to my fireplace; it looks pretty interesting when seen from the top: http://zem.fi/~fis/subtree7.png
20:31:14 <fizzie> (Part of it is stone since it's the outer wall of the building.)
20:31:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, don't fall whatever you do
20:31:29 <Sgeo> Can you die? What happens if you do?
20:31:37 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, it's not like the fire would *hurt* you; again, multiplayer. :p
20:31:39 <Vorpal> Sgeo, not in multiplayer yet
20:31:50 <Vorpal> and you respawn, inventory lost
20:31:58 <Vorpal> respawn at the spawn point that is
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20:33:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It turns out that parental overlords often possess instruments of payment.
20:33:09 <elliott> It also turns out that I can afford Minecraft.
20:33:24 <fizzie> Vorpal: Though falling down would be a bit annoying, since you can't get out without breaking the fireplace, since the gap between the floor/fire and start of the chimney is just one block high: http://zem.fi/~fis/subtree8.png
20:33:27 <elliott> This is not exactly some esoteric magick.
20:33:46 <pikhq> elliott: Þou fooliſh knave! Þere be no ſecond perſon *ſingular* pronoun!
20:34:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, hey, I did buy an album with that Switch or Solo or whatever but it's expired by now and I'm lazy.
20:34:35 <Vorpal> elliott, can't you get visa electron or such? I got that when I was like 15 iirc. then got full visa when I was like 20 (could have got it at 18 but, meh, didn't bother changing card until I needed something that worked in those "not connected to the system" payment systems. Like on trains and such.
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20:34:52 <elliott> Vorpal: It's something "like" that, as I said it's called Switch or Solo or something.
20:34:57 <elliott> Vorpal: But there are a lot of places that don'at accept it...
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20:35:17 <Vorpal> elliott, but the electron thingy works in a lot of places. Like on the buses (but not on the trains)
20:35:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, you could easily replace it? brick is broken into brick after all
20:35:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, and you would be standing close enough it couldn't catch fire
20:36:02 <Vorpal> and would it even catch fire? Or is that just lava?
20:36:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I have a card of some form, but I have no idea where it is.
20:37:21 <fizzie> Vorpal: Did you notice my absurdly extravagant "solid block of diamond as a torch-holder" thing there?-)
20:37:57 <fizzie> Not like I'd have much use for it since things don't wear out.
20:37:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, and wtf. How can you get that much diamond
20:38:11 <fizzie> It's just 9 gems to get a block.
20:40:31 <Vorpal> in single player: boat I was in fell 50 blocks and landed on rock. Didn't break
20:40:46 <Vorpal> it missed the water pool at the bottom
20:41:05 <Vorpal> yet boats are fragile when they hit the shore too fast
20:41:33 <elliott> Vorpal: think non-newtonian fluid
20:42:19 <fizzie> Speaking of beefing up laptops (all the way back up there), I recall there was some talk on external graphics cards, like that ATI XGP (external box with Mobility Radeon HD 3870/HD 5870/some sort of dual-GPU thing, connected with a proprietary "external 16x PCI-E"; I suppose those haven't gotten really popularized yet?
20:42:44 <elliott> Athlon IIs are just cheaper Phenom IIs, right?
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20:46:31 <elliott> "AMD Phenom II X4 910e Deneb 2.6GHz 4 x 512KB L2 Cache 6MB L3 Cache Socket AM3 65W Quad-Core Desktop Processor HD910EOCGMBOX"
20:48:55 <Phantom_Hoover> I think I might as well just get a proper desktop computer, since I've been meaning to get one for a while.
20:49:48 <Sgeo> The music of the last phase of the final boss fight of Aquaria is epic
20:51:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Don't buy a premade one.
20:52:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I can totally get you a list of parts! I'd say that bsmnt is a happy customer who I can get an endorsement from, but I doubt it would be fruitful. Also his cost $1,600.
20:52:29 * Phantom_Hoover starts composing his "things to do over Christmas" list,
20:52:49 <elliott> NAME A BUDGET AND I'LL PROBABLY GET YOU THE BEST COMPUTER FOR THAT PRICE! PROBABLY!
20:53:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It was a while ago. Right now it's £991.
20:53:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But then, he had 4 cores (8 threads), 12 GiB of RAM, and 2 TiB of disk I think.
20:53:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So: TOTALLY FLEXIBLE HERE
20:54:03 <fizzie> elliott: Just produce for him a function that returns the best possible computer, given a price; then put that into a GUI with a slider he can twiddle around.
20:54:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Lower than £800 would probably be my loosest condition...
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20:55:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I managed to piece together components for a decent-ish computer for, like, £150 once.
20:55:30 <elliott> (Decent-ish: two core, AMD, I think 2 GiB of RAM.)
20:56:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No such thing. But there is... a scale of workingness.
20:57:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'm likely to assemble a parts list even if you don't want me to out of sheer compulsiveness, so: Quad-core or dual-core? You probably want to say Quad, but if you're on an *extreme* budget no. (£799 is not an extreme budget.)
20:58:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What's the maximum price you wouldn't feel "rrk" about paying?
20:59:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, yes, and that's a fact. Try and find a computer of the specs I made for $1,600.
20:59:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Did I mention it included an 80 GiB Intel SSD?
20:59:30 <Sgeo> I think consensus is that they are an expensive thing
20:59:33 <Sgeo> For the same specs
20:59:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: When they were still $400 or something?
20:59:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Also, they're generally... not well put-together.
20:59:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And the components are only Linux-optimal if you're extremely lucky.
21:00:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Is £500 okay? :P
21:01:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Are you a silence freak like me? (Say no.)
21:01:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Can you withstand the noise of a constant jet engine?
21:01:58 <elliott> Note: Extreme exaggeration in place.
21:02:08 <elliott> Yeah, it won't be anything like that :P
21:02:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Nvidia or ATI? (The answer to your next question is "depends on the phase of the moon".)
21:03:16 <elliott> As I understand it, right now the open-source ATI drivers are better than the open-source Nvidia drivers, and the proprietary Nvidia drivers are the best of all.
21:03:21 <elliott> With the proprietary ATI drivers being decent.
21:03:34 <elliott> ATI have opened their specs, so they're less of an ENEMY OF FREEDOM.
21:03:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Nvidia then.
21:04:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I think we should just all switch to ZFCR and stop fussing over that hypothesis.
21:04:22 <elliott> Not like I have great faith in ZFC's consistency to start with.
21:04:36 <fizzie> "Game"-class GPUs and silence seems to be a bit tricky thing to get; the out-of-the-box passively cooled parts are really low-end; stock cooling solutions are incredibly horrible when it comes to noise; and at least back few years ago third-party cooling on graphics cards was a lot iffier project -- due to completely non-standard sizes and shapes of things -- than third-party CPU cooling.
21:04:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm. It'll never be proven insoluble, so that'll never be a satisfactory option...
21:05:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: If R turns out to be false, switch to ZFC~R. If you reject R you *already* throw out a LOT of modern mathematics.
21:05:35 <elliott> So it's practically an axiom already.
21:05:51 <elliott> fizzie: Well, Phantom_Hoover is using a laptop; it's nice like he needs *extreme* graphics power.
21:05:58 <elliott> fizzie: The passively-cooled GPUs do CUDA and everything nowadays...
21:06:10 <elliott> But yeah, the active coolers are *really* loud.
21:06:47 <fizzie> They do all the same things, they just don't do as much of it. And if you have a truu gamer, it's all about polygons. (Okay, shader pipelines or whatever now; but it was polygon fill rates back in the Voodoo days.)
21:08:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover gets what he gets for his meagre budget and likes it.
21:09:16 <elliott> It'll beat your Intel GPU. :P
21:10:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But don't expect to be playing Crysis at full settings!
21:11:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Every card is. More or less.
21:11:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: They're all X.Org drivers...
21:13:11 <elliott> "Cons: The heatsink is so big that it blocked 2 pci cards on my motherboard. Horribly dissapointed, will be returning tomorrow."
21:13:27 <elliott> "Cons: Quickly goes over 60deg C according to SpeedFan after bootup and has gone as high as 67deg C in limited use."
21:13:31 <elliott> "Cons: As mentioned by others, the heat sink rises above and wraps around the top of the card. I couldn't get the door on my case to close with the card installed, will have to modify the ventilation cowl on the door."
21:13:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Your ears -- how tolerant are they of white noise?
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21:14:48 <fizzie> There's that old Dan's Data review of a cat, which has a pro/con comparison table between the set of {kitten, puppy, baby, new video card}, with those things scoring 11, 6, 2 and 3 points, respectively.
21:14:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That is kind of hard without calibrating your volume...
21:14:52 <fizzie> http://www.dansdata.com/kitten.htm
21:14:53 <Vorpal> elliott, what is that monster fan?
21:15:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Which monster fan?
21:15:13 <Vorpal> elliott, the one you listed cons for
21:15:27 <Vorpal> which monster heatsink
21:15:29 <elliott> Vorpal: No, graphics card.
21:15:37 <elliott> It's not that big. Just big for a graphics card.
21:15:50 <elliott> fizzie: dan's data is my favourite site ever
21:15:56 <elliott> Vorpal: I've gone off the page now.
21:16:16 <elliott> Vorpal: Here: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814500155
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21:17:07 <fizzie> Both of my passively-cooled GPUs -- Geforces 7600something and 8600something -- have rather huger heatsinks than that; fortunately I don't have very much stuff inside the chassis. (One of them has a rather silly thing that can be adjusted to a 90-degree angle.)
21:17:41 <elliott> "Note that kittens in standby mode still emit noticeable heat. This is normal; no efforts to cool the kitten with fans, heat sinks, water jackets or chilled Fluorinert immersion should be made."
21:18:08 <Vorpal> elliott, passive or what+
21:18:26 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, it's a passively cooled kitten.
21:18:28 <elliott> "NOTE: Kittens do not have any computer-compatible ports. Don't try to plug anything into them. I'm serious."
21:18:47 <Vorpal> elliott, about the GPU :P
21:19:01 <fizzie> It looks like this thing, except more so: http://www.techfuels.com/attachments/everything-else/7232d1225013048-asus-en7600gt-video-card-asus-en7600gt-video-card.jpg -- the thing there is supposed to be rotated 90 degrees so that it's airflowly speaking cooled better.
21:19:04 <elliott> Unless you meant "passive /or what/"
21:19:04 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I have come to the conclusion that I am tolerant of white noise.
21:19:18 <Vorpal> elliott, hm perhaps I did. If that is the right answer :P
21:19:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Spoken like someone who has never heard a GPU fan.
21:19:26 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway I saw nothing saying kitten on that page
21:19:29 <elliott> Vorpal: "X or WHAT?" i.e. "Very X!"
21:19:32 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.dansdata.com/kitten.htm
21:19:43 <elliott> "Herewith, a rundown of the relative merits of four options for the computer enthusiast - a kitten, a puppy, a baby, and (as a representative example of the more usual kind of home information technology purchase) a new video card."
21:19:47 <fizzie> Oh, and here's the passively-cooled 8600gt I have: http://techreport.com/r.x/12962_Gigabyte_Silent_Pipe_3_finds_redemption/gigabyte-silent-gt.jpg
21:19:49 <Vorpal> elliott, I meant the newegg link...
21:20:04 <fizzie> Or at least it's in the same style.
21:21:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: While doing things
21:22:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, GPU fans are not exactly pure white noise...
21:22:15 <elliott> Imagine a hoover's noise. You should be familiar with them, being one.
21:22:26 <fizzie> Do phantom hoovers make a noise, I wonder?
21:22:32 <fizzie> Maybe it's just some sort of ghostly clanking.
21:23:01 <oklopol> even i don't like hoover noise :o
21:23:26 <oklopol> and i love drilling, hammering and all kinds of motors
21:23:35 <fizzie> I don't like the Roomba noise, and despite all prior evidence (youtube), our cat just simply refuses to ride on it.
21:24:34 <Vorpal> what is wrong with "vacuum cleaner"?
21:24:38 <elliott> fizzie: Does it actually work?
21:24:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh come on, you know the answer to that.
21:24:49 <elliott> fizzie has multiple personality disorder.
21:25:03 <elliott> (It is utterly unthinkable that anyone in #esoteric would ever be in any kind of relationship ever. Unless it's with a dog or something.)
21:25:06 <oklopol> yeah, fizzie married his alter ego fizziet
21:25:12 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, fizzie's married to his multiple personality?
21:25:18 <elliott> It's fizzie, and fizzie fizzie.
21:25:38 <Vorpal> elliott, that counts as a relationship. Even if with himself
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21:25:50 <Phantom_Hoover> It is also inconceivable that someone here is even vaguely related to a female.
21:25:50 <Vorpal> elliott, as long as he isn't a dog or something it isn't possible
21:26:03 <oklopol> augur: all kinds of uninteresting stuff!
21:26:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, we've had three females in here over our entire history.
21:26:07 <Phantom_Hoover> How many confirmedly female people have there been here?
21:26:09 <augur> oklopol: oh? do tell!
21:26:31 <oklopol> well i just ate some stuff and watched family guy
21:26:49 <fizzie> elliott: Well, it's not as thorough as a human vacuumerizer, and takes quite a lot longer, but it does take care of most of the dust and cat-fur conglomerations. This place would actually be pretty clean if we just bothered to run that thing every few days, but I'm too lazy to move the heavy dining table chairs out of its way that often.
21:26:57 <Phantom_Hoover> How did we ever manage such a ridiculous demographic thing?
21:27:05 <oklopol> also i'm giving this talk in a CA conference
21:27:20 <elliott> `addquote <oklopol> well i just ate some stuff and watched family guy <oklopol> and i own a piano <oklopol> and i'm not wearing socks
21:27:24 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
21:27:29 <HackEgo> 259|<oklopol> well i just ate some stuff and watched family guy <oklopol> and i own a piano <oklopol> and i'm not wearing socks
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21:29:35 <oklopol> ais523: did you hear i'm not wearing socks
21:30:04 <fizzie> Hey, unless my /who is lying, this unknown "aloril" person is also a .fi one; has the hypothetical Finnish channel domination plan taken one more step ahead?
21:30:55 <fizzie> Maybe he's a she! (I was trying to look for female-sounding realnames; out of 54 surely there should be at least one.)
21:31:08 <augur> oklopol: no socks?!
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21:31:47 <fizzie> fungot: Which gender are you?
21:31:47 <fungot> fizzie: hmmm... apache/ 1.3.33 is hard to spell because it's had so many machines ( suns) it collapsed.... like nuns in the street
21:31:53 <elliott> <fizzie> Hey, unless my /who is lying, this unknown "aloril" person is also a .fi one; has the hypothetical Finnish channel domination plan taken one more step ahead?
21:31:59 <elliott> I *know* I've heard of a related aloril lately.
21:32:45 <elliott> Let me tally up the female hominids whose names I remember... Sukoshi, lilja.
21:33:05 <elliott> I know for sure there is one more that's been in here. fax I just won't even get into after what happened the last time I referred to it as any sort of gender.
21:33:08 <fizzie> Google seems to suggest just Computer Go.
21:33:13 <elliott> Yes, our oestrogen levels are off the charts.
21:33:25 <fizzie> elliott: For "aloril".
21:33:32 <elliott> It rings *such* a bell though
21:33:49 <fizzie> elliott: Well, also some things in a game of life context.
21:34:18 <augur> oklopol: dont worry, i was gentle
21:34:22 <Vorpal> <fungot> fizzie: hmmm... apache/ 1.3.33 is hard to spell because it's had so many machines ( suns) it collapsed.... like nuns in the street <-- eh, good try at ryhme. suns, nuns...
21:34:23 <fungot> Vorpal: modulo 350? *l*) fnord in python the true and false in that definition
21:34:35 <augur> i beat mirror's edge earlier today :T
21:34:39 <elliott> Vorpal: "It collapsed like nuns in the street" -- my favourite line of all lines.
21:35:44 <Vorpal> elliott, you forgot the ...
21:35:52 <fizzie> Unsupported street nuns are prone to collapse.
21:35:54 <elliott> Vorpal: It was "....", actually.
21:36:14 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
21:36:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, like minecraft sand?
21:36:22 <elliott> Vorpal: Minecraft and reddit: Good career moves. "You know that guy that built a computer on minecraft? He got a job because some company saw it on reddit. A freaking job."
21:36:45 <Vorpal> elliott, are you sure it is true?
21:36:57 <Vorpal> elliott, also what type of job
21:37:03 <elliott> Vorpal: Well-publicised YouTube video... so I'd guess so.
21:37:06 <elliott> (And the same person on reddit.)
21:37:10 <elliott> Vorpal: Type of job - probably programmer...
21:37:18 <elliott> Vorpal: "Would you please stop, and just come to work for me?
21:37:23 <elliott> "If you're within a couple hundred miles of Athens, GA when I finish my degree, look me up."
21:37:25 <Vorpal> elliott, could be hw designer :P
21:37:25 <elliott> "We are in downtown Atlanta, specializing in massive multiplayer games."
21:37:31 <Vorpal> elliott, if it was I would be scared
21:37:48 <elliott> "Hey now, I created an ALU, plus the rest of a fully functioning CPU in LogicWorks when I was in University, and no one offered me a job!"
21:37:52 <elliott> [same company guy] "Send me your resume."
21:39:52 <elliott> Everyone who continues the tradition of referring to me as "she" for the purpose of opinion (is there anyone left?): Try "it". It's 10x so.
21:40:17 <fizzie> elliott: I think I saw him refer to you as "he or she" the other day.
21:40:26 <elliott> fizzie: No, that's standard ais523.
21:40:50 <fizzie> Does he do that for known-gender targets too? Well, why not, I guess.
21:41:20 <elliott> fizzie: Mostly "e" though. Well. On Agora.
21:42:05 <Vorpal> over (and a smidgen to the left).
21:42:34 <Vorpal> (I love that word, very seldom you get a chance to use it though)
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21:49:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: Here's the multiplayer "I can see right through you" bug; happened to be walking by, got a shot: http://zem.fi/~fis/subtree9.png (If you'd go nearer to the edge, you'd probably see a huge pile of lava caves. The missing blocks have already appeared, though.)
21:51:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, subtree seems to stretch it a bit :P
21:51:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, and I saw that on the local server I tested
21:51:56 <fizzie> Yes, I should've probably started with a more generic name.
21:52:00 <Vorpal> persisted for a minute
21:52:11 * pikhq feels like vomiting
21:52:43 <fizzie> I don't blame you: graphics glitches make me pretty nauseous too.
21:53:27 <Phantom_Hoover> God, I really can't handle other people with the same name as me...
21:54:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Okay, Nick.
21:54:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Okay, George.
21:54:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Okay, Richard.
21:54:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Okay, John.
21:54:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Okay, Harry.
21:55:51 <pikhq> John Jacob Jingleheimershmit?
21:56:01 <elliott> pikhq: Hey. That name is my name too!
21:56:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Indianajones (one word).
21:56:19 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Valentinez Alkalinella Xifax Sicidabohertz Gombigobilla Blue Stradivari Talentrent Pierre Andri Charton-Haymoss Ivanovici Baldeus George Doitzel Kaiser III?
21:56:26 <pikhq> elliott: What an astounding coincidence.
21:56:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Ronjeremy-Mozart.
21:56:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: El-ahrairah.
21:57:09 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Love Symbol #2?
21:57:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Big Fucking Edward?
21:57:32 <pikhq> So's Love Symbol #2.
21:57:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So's Big Fucking Edward.
21:57:49 <elliott> ais523: can you *believe* rutian still exists?
21:58:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: [symbol naming the artist formerly known as Prince]
22:00:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Actually, augur knew it at one point, but I'll kill him if he speaks.
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22:03:02 <pikhq> elliott: The name of the symbol is Love Symbol #2. Or, if someone puts it into Unicode, LOVE SYMBOL 2
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22:05:06 <elliott> augur, what's phanty's name?
22:07:51 <elliott> Linux rutian 2.6.16.29-xen #1 SMP Sun Sep 30 04:00:13 UTC 2007 x86_64
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22:16:58 <ais523> <elliott> ais523: can you *believe* rutian still exists? <--- I'd be quite surprised that nobody had unVMed it by now
22:17:16 <elliott> ais523: I don't understand your statement.
22:17:40 <olsner> elliott: have you seen http://www.es40.org/ES40_Emulator?
22:18:32 <elliott> olsner: seems imperfect :)
22:18:46 <elliott> http://www.es40.org/Running_Tru64_UNIX_in_the_Emulator
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22:20:09 <olsner> this palcode thing alphas have seems pretty neat
22:20:48 <olsner> eugh, "Timing problems introduced with the new threading model (needs research)"
22:21:10 <elliott> Gregor: Is prgmr still crap?
22:21:20 <olsner> it's like a library of subroutines you can load into the cpu as your own assembly instructions
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22:21:35 <olsner> or "microcode", but you write them in alpha assembly afaict
22:21:44 <Gregor> elliott: It's mostly gone back to normal. I never measured the disk speed before, so I don't really have the right baseline, I feel like it's a BIT slower, but not horribly slow...
22:22:04 <elliott> Gregor: Would you recommend it? :P
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22:22:25 <elliott> Gregor: ...with the kind of problems you've had?
22:22:28 <Gregor> What I would NOT recommend is web coding for fun.
22:22:33 <Gregor> elliott: That is the ONLY problem I've had.
22:22:42 <elliott> Gregor: Pretty long and big problem :P
22:23:17 <Gregor> elliott: It only seemed like a big problem from the perspective of #esoteric since I had to kill the bots :P
22:23:28 <elliott> Gregor: Dude, you pasted dd output :P
22:23:47 <Gregor> Idonno, it just sort of faded away X-P
22:24:17 <elliott> Gregor: How long was it that bad? :P
22:24:23 <zzo38> Do any computers allow dynamically changing microcodes while the program is running?
22:24:41 <Gregor> elliott: Probably about two weeks.
22:24:50 <elliott> Gregor: Doesn't inspire confidence, man :P
22:25:13 <Gregor> elliott: Why did you even ask me if you've already decided they suck?
22:25:45 <elliott> Gregor: I haven't; I *did* recommend them to you. I'm trying to figure out how you don't consider this a deal-breaker.
22:26:10 <Gregor> Because they halved my rent for the month things were bad? X-P
22:26:29 <elliott> Gregor: Fair 'nuff; server-wide problem then? :P
22:26:41 <Gregor> Err, yes, where "server" = box.
22:26:42 <elliott> Gregor: Universe hates you?
22:27:30 <Gregor> The universe wurves me :P
22:27:47 <elliott> Gregor: Which vips do you haev agaein?
22:28:53 <elliott> Gregor: HRY THAT'S WHAT IM GETTING WE'REER LIKE VPS SEOUL MAYTZ
22:28:58 <pikhq> zzo38: The N64's GPU and audio processor was designed around that.
22:29:19 <pikhq> As were the two vector units on the Playstation 2.
22:29:26 <elliott> Gregor: Is the RAM ... usable? :P
22:29:31 <pikhq> (so many fucking processors on that SOB)
22:30:06 <Gregor> elliott: It seems to be quite sufficient for everything I do *shrugs*
22:30:19 <elliott> Gregor: LIKE MINECRAFT SERVERS AMIRITGH
22:30:37 <elliott> Gregor: Y'know, it'd run a hell of a lot better with
22:30:56 <Gregor> It's Xen, install whatever you want to.
22:31:13 <zzo38> Is it possible to make computer hardware such that a processor can have the NMI handler in a fixed location in ROM but that the other interrupt handlers are RAM?
22:31:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Absolutely!*
22:31:51 <elliott> Gregor: Ah, but you see, I need YOUR AXE.
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22:32:03 <elliott> Gregor: (Does it let you use a completely fucked-up kernel?)
22:32:06 <Phantom_Hoover> But it's a kitten with a tinfoil had with a USB lead attached!
22:32:09 <elliott> Gregor: (We're talking no modules here.)
22:32:27 <Gregor> elliott: So long as it's compiled for Xen and has the Xen virtual HD support etc.
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22:32:56 <Phantom_Hoover> It also purrs when it gets to some heavy-duty rendering.
22:33:01 <elliott> Gregor: That sounds BEYOND BORING* *Is that easy to do?
22:33:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ^_______________________^ can i buy it
22:33:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, my cat is a) male and b) neutered, so we're short of supply right now.
22:33:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Sex change + ovary transplant.
22:34:49 <zzo38> Is there a Windows driver for USB devices that use Plan 9 protocol? Is there a Linux driver for USB devices that use Plan 9 protocol?
22:35:07 <elliott> zzo38: Well, uh, Linux has 9P support...
22:35:46 <zzo38> elliott: Can you mount a USB device that can communicate to the computer by using 9P?
22:35:49 * comex annotates CFJs for the ruleset
22:36:38 <elliott> comex: vote for my porpoise^Wproposal
22:36:44 <comex> yeah that's why I clicked this channel
22:36:50 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, also, the kitten chases after the things it's rendering.
22:37:00 <Gregor> elliott: MORE LIKE DEMON CRAP
22:37:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ;_; why do youd o this to me
22:39:13 <Phantom_Hoover> It can serve as a sound card too, but its range of outputs are limited.
22:39:42 <elliott> I would love to hear a kitten output Never Gonna Give You Up.
22:40:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Mewmew mewmew mew mew purrr, mewmew mewmew mew mew purrr, mewmew mewmew...
22:41:36 <elliott> That so does not translate X-P
22:41:45 <Phantom_Hoover> If you give it a dish of milk you can get a temporary boost in performance.
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22:41:57 <zzo38> Instead of installing USB devices on /dev/sdb and so on, it should install USB devices on /dev/usb/00.d and so on. (And give the file timestamp according to when the device is connected)
22:43:58 <Phantom_Hoover> It has long periods of downtime, however, and a habit of blocking the fan vent.
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23:51:02 <elliott> Vorpal: I reject your epoll!
23:51:22 <elliott> Vorpal: And substitute my FORKING. Because I'm NONCONFORMIST.
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