< 1289779424 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what epoll? < 1289779467 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: for servers < 1289779512 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well it depends on what sort of server < 1289779522 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: httpd in this case :P < 1289779524 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it wouldn't work for IRC. Then you would need IPC < 1289779530 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yeah, indeed < 1289779546 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I just saw some pointless mini-httpd benchmarks and it was amazing what did well < 1289779553 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: for instance, the top performer was using select() < 1289779555 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for portability < 1289779558 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this on linux) < 1289779564 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: and there was another top one that forked, iirc < 1289779570 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :worth a try right? :P < 1289779608 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1289779627 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: ignoring Connection: close -- what could possibly go wrong? (parsing headers is hard!) < 1289779691 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, err < 1289779695 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, why is it hard? < 1289779705 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why would you ignore that one? < 1289779719 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: TAKES TIME (and because it's MORE FASTER if i keep the connection open forever) < 1289779724 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note: header parsing is on the todo :P < 1289779736 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1289779737 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, like, finding out what file to get? ;P < 1289779741 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1289779744 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :constant right now < 1289779745 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for SPEED < 1289779748 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1289779764 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, good for "sorry main server broken" but that is all < 1289779784 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OR FOR SERVING ONE FILE A LOT < 1289779791 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't even read() < 1289779804 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott@dinky:~/Code/httpd$ nc localhost 8080 < 1289779806 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott@dinky:~/Code/httpd$ < 1289779806 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm. < 1289779812 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1289779813 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lawl < 1289779860 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: ITW ORKS < 1289779861 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*IT WORKS < 1289779900 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well duh since you are not parsing anything it is easy :P < 1289779950 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: http://91.105.107.242:8081/ < 1289779951 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: TELL ME HOW FAST IT IS < 1289780005 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: just realised you could implement cat with sendfile X-D < 1289780031 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: That server seems to not care about the request, and always sends headers and a HTML file. < 1289780040 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Quickly, though! < 1289780059 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, a few seconds to load < 1289780071 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: to be fair, this is a dsl connection in the uk :P < 1289780080 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Only if you don't mind being able to cat only mmapable files into sockets, at least on Linux. < 1289780082 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It is sufficiently fast < 1289780085 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, indeed. Which will dominate for all servers < 1289780097 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Well, true. < 1289780169 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is the slightly more general splice(2) mechanism, but even that requires at least one pipe, since it's basically just pipe buffer management. < 1289780170 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about splice? < 1289780178 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It ought to read the request at least to determine whether or not to send headers (or if it should send only headers). And it isn't very useful if there is only one file on there, anyways. < 1289780178 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, aargh you beat me to it by one second < 1289780222 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: What if the file was the best file of all files? < 1289780259 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It doesn't matter; there still needs multiple files. < 1289780266 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, note: zzo doesn't work that way. < 1289780307 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: ..."work that way"? xD < 1289780330 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, indeed. You will have to figure it out < 1289780342 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He doesn't run on batteries. < 1289780371 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: swatted to death < 1289780384 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Solaris 10 sendfile(2) can copy a source "regular file" into a destination that can be either "regular file" or af_inet/af_inet6 sock_stream socket. So you can do cp(1) with sendfile. < 1289780390 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, an astute and accurate observation. < 1289780398 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hah < 1289780476 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1289780518 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Solaris sendfile also can send a buffer instead of a file by using SFV_FD_SELF as the source fd. It's not very clear to me how that's an improvement over just write()ing the buffer. < 1289780550 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aww, http://localhost:8081/ is frozen on one page. < 1289780590 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, read a thread about someone explaining a (now fixed) griefing method on the minecraft forums. Using big O notation to explain why it was a problem (O(n) placing, O(n²) cleanup). This comment was really sad: "anyway 0(n) always equals 0 because 0 x (n) is like 0 times 1 or 0 times a centilion its still 0 your math makes no sense" < 1289780614 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone missed 0 != O < 1289780616 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I would pulverise their skull. < 1289780624 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, who? < 1289780629 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Whoever wrote that. < 1289780631 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you need simplicity and somehow you need to send only one file (I am unsure why), you do not need to use HTTP at all, you can use the gopher protocol, and assuming it is a binary file and that the server does not wait for the selector string, it will be easy to download: nc x.example.org 70 > the_file < 1289780645 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, indeed. I don't think they took university math though < 1289780660 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, probably US education or Swedish education < 1289780663 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, no special software is needed; just netcat is good enough to download this file. < 1289780664 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both are shit :P < 1289780668 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It is one thing to be ignorant; it is another entirely to assume that you are more knowledgeable. < 1289780676 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, indeed. < 1289780679 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: i didn't write netcat though. < 1289780684 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: you should write your own nethack < 1289780688 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1289780690 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: you should write your own netcat < 1289780695 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: You should be able to write a simple netcat program if needed < 1289780704 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : int i = rand() % 4; < 1289780709 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And perhaps I can also write a netcat program if needed, too < 1289780712 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now why is this seemingly always 3... < 1289780836 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ha, my server is beyond broken now. < 1289781307 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I would pulverise their skull. <--- I approve < 1289781317 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: link me? < 1289781435 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: did you get an explanation for the slow disk performance, out of curiosity? < 1289781458 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just that the other users on my system were overutilizing. < 1289781522 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad users < 1289781604 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I <3 /r/tipofmytongue < 1289781605 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/tipofmytongue/comments/e5z1f/tomt_series_of_books_about_kids_on_an_island/ < 1289781647 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=15497 <-- but it won't work any more < 1289781663 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: i just meant for stupid :) < 1289781665 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, somewhere in that thread < 1289781668 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure where < 1289781673 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :page 2 or 3 or such < 1289781688 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, grep for the string I copied < 1289781690 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Noahic deluge" :D < 1289781707 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where's the O() :P < 1289781716 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Thanks for posting this and teaching future griefers how to do it. =/" itt: full disclosure < 1289782005 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://2dcraft.net/ lawl < 1289782012 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" -- 1.6GHz CPU (Anything more than one core makes no difference) < 1289782013 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-- DirectX 9 capable graphics card. With (at least) Pixel Shader 1." < 1289782015 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's 2d you moron < 1289782020 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't need directx 9 < 1289782118 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: got to the post gave up on life < 1289782301 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hah < 1289782326 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: those forums are 99% noise. < 1289782366 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, indeed. The first few posts are the only stuff worth reading on most threads < 1289782380 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: needs moar mailing list :) < 1289782385 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reminder to self: rewriting systems. < 1289782387 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ < 1289782388 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| < 1289782388 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| < 1289782392 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am going up to the topic bar < 1289782393 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :toodles < 1289782394 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1289782400 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, and well, the redstone logic threads, and massive minecart/redstone-logic transportation networks are saner < 1289782402 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn he left < 1289782411 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bruce Coville owns my childhood. < 1289782721 0 :augur!~augur@208.58.6.161 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289782969 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: zzo38 < 1289783037 0 :sftp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1289783224 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why must it be cold? < 1289783243 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because you never read Bruce Coville < 1289783264 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, just found out that he authored many of the books I read as a kid < 1289783625 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1289783768 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1289783978 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... The recent major adjustment in IPv4 depletion timing bought the two major models much closer together... < 1289784044 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, about seven week diffrence was brought down to about three weeks... < 1289784115 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Estimating X-day is basically estimating when RIPE and APNIC grab their next block... < 1289784141 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pick the later of the two estimates, and that is the X-day estimate. < 1289784161 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many blocks are left? < 1289784170 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you saying there are only 2 blocks? < 1289784173 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :6+5. < 1289784219 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARIN is going to grab soon. It is RIPE and APNIC that are going to grab the last 4 blocks. But question is, when the latter of those grabs happens? < 1289784297 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, large surprise allocations could skew it... < 1289784855 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1289784878 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, what that AFRINIC allocation did is to transfer the uncertainity from AFRINIC (which doesn't seem to be handled too well by the models) into well-handled APNIC and RIPE. < 1289784964 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1289785190 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, one large suprise allocation probably wouldn't skew it too much, because there is need for two RIRs to allocate after ARIN. Even RIPE taking surprise allocation moving its date a lot would only move the estimate by about 2 weeks (because APNIC would have to allocate). < 1289785243 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Barring major surprises, the end-game is clear: ARIN, APNIC and RIPE will each allocate 2 blocks and last of those three will exhaust the pool. < 1289785740 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, the only thing that can move X day a lot is "run on the bank" scenario. < 1289785787 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or both APNIC and RIPE taking huge allocations. < 1289786055 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1289786088 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, on X-Day < 1289786091 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What happens? < 1289786110 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do we finally start seeing IPv6 adaption? < 1289786158 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1289786847 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nobody really knows... On the worst case, panic allocations start... < 1289786996 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I expect IPv6 adoption to only really start on RIR pool depletion, as people finally realise that they *actually need to do it*. < 1289787527 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :These are two seperate things... IPv4 pool depletion and IPv6 adaption... < 1289787809 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And IPv6 adoption will be mandatory in a bit over a year's time, it looks like. < 1289793633 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1289793862 0 :Decarabia!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1289794399 0 :Decarabia!~root@S010600240171528a.ed.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1289795157 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliot: So, you said that Echoes was the only good part of Meddle... How convenient that that's half the album. < 1289795172 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the album is 46 minutes, Echoes is 23 minutes) < 1289797129 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And too bad the IPv6 "last mile" stuff looks real mess... < 1289797192 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By which I presume you mean "Dear God, Comcast is the *only* US ISP even trying." < 1289797243 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@bas5-toronto47-1176440478.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1289797247 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't there some french ISP that has IPv6 in *production* use. < 1289797268 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not testing like Comcast). < 1289797345 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NTT (in Japan) has offered IPv6 at home since *2000*. < 1289798908 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1289798923 0 :Diarrhea!~fireclown@166.137.15.237 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289799125 0 :Diarrhea!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1289799267 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure if any isp in nz actually supplies it < 1289799274 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we get ours through a tunnel broker < 1289799548 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1289799570 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1289799573 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1289799605 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1289799616 0 :aloril!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1289799623 0 :Wamanuz4!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1289799627 0 :Wamanuz3!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1289799713 0 :fizzie!~fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1289799886 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@xdsl-83-150-123-242.nebulazone.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1289800054 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289800326 0 :aloril!~aloril@84.249.126.153 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289800592 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.12/20101026210630] < 1289801531 0 :Wamanuz5!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1289801616 0 :Wamanuz4!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1289802321 0 :JoeyA!~joeyadams@208.96.182.115 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289802586 0 :JoeyA!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just wondering, has anyone formulated a syntax for closures in LOLCODE? < 1289802624 0 :cal153!~cal@c-24-4-207-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1289802727 0 :JoeyA!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking GIMMEH A FOR TO < 1289802803 0 :JoeyA!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nvm...bed < 1289802805 0 :JoeyA!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1289802808 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1289802857 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1289803981 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@j-91.vc-graz.ac.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1289804752 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-8-237.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1289805643 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Quit < 1289805878 0 :FireFly!~firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1289805879 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1289805879 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1289807101 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah... xine SIGSEGVs if you unlink file that is on the playlist and then attempt to to play it. < 1289807142 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1289807187 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, now it just threw an error dialog. < 1289807999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1289808000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1289808856 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: swatted to death < 1289814899 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289815650 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1289816065 0 :Slereah!~butt@ANantes-259-1-139-214.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1289817774 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1289818406 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ilua < 1289819224 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh... I tried guessing the amount of energy in McDonalds Quater Pounder. I guessed 600kcal, reality is 535kcal (not that calories count). Now, what's the amount of calories in most calorie-loaded product Starbucks sells? :-) < 1289819356 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fun fact: People can quite accurately estimate the number of calories in fast food. But ask them to estimate number of calories in food sold by "more upscale" places, and the estimates will be _WAY_ low. < 1289820279 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289820492 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Crowdsourcing cancels out random errors, but it does not cancel out systematic bias. < 1289820767 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you just need a better crowd. < 1289820910 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there's also the case where true answer lies in the extreme. Then the errors can't cancel out. < 1289820954 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that is, one can't guess any higher/lower than the true answer because such answer wouldn't make any sense). < 1289821808 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1289821845 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1289822131 0 :Sasha!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1289825543 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1289828307 0 :augur!~augur@208.58.6.161 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289829160 0 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289829711 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1289829990 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1289832269 0 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.33 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289833519 0 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.50.208 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289833979 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-9-91.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1289834405 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@137.125.188.14 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289834512 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: Most calories in their most calorie-loaded? Well, their drinks are huge. I'm going with ~700 kcal (or ~29200 kJ). < 1289834567 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1289834572 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(2920 kJ) < 1289834891 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1289834985 0 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.33 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289835113 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Venti Iced Double Chocolaty Chip Frappuccino with whipped cream: 800 kcal. (Note: based on a very heuristic search for calories, not an exhaustive browsing of the menu.) < 1289835199 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, I was only a hundred short. < 1289835202 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And damn. < 1289835207 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just damn. < 1289835323 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Granted, "Venti Iced" *is* 24 oz (or apparently 0.7 litres). < 1289835516 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, the venti is gigantic. < 1289835585 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And people reguarly obtain it. < 1289835711 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's not even that good of coffee. < 1289836226 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? which company? < 1289836260 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Starbucks. < 1289836272 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1289836282 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gigantic things of shitty coffee. < 1289836594 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION thinks the existence of http://www.amazon.com/review/R403HR4VL71K8/ref=cm_cr_rdp_perm is hilarious; Peter Norvig wrote a review of SICP on Amazon < 1289836819 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, hm the review is good and sensible as far as I can tell. So that means you probably think it is hilarious due to who wrote it. < 1289836911 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1289837126 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1289837239 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: actually, I think it's the location that's hilarious < 1289837239 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I got kicked out of maths today for disagreeing with the teacher over whether 0 \in N. < 1289837243 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in addition to who wrote it < 1289837256 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: never use N the set, use restrictions of Z instead < 1289837262 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mathematicians don't generally agree on how to define N < 1289837264 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, hm okay < 1289837286 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, as I discovered to my cost. < 1289837381 0 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.33 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289838659 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1289838667 0 :sftp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1289838695 0 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.50.208 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289839437 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tried to help someone with their regex issues < 1289839440 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Couldn't figure it out < 1289839450 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turns out that they actually typed a newline into their string < 1289839454 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It wasn't wordwrap < 1289839675 0 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1289839746 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Disease sucks. We should wipe out all other life-forms so that I can live without microbial diseases. < 1289839783 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about KITTENS? < 1289839826 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :konekotatikàarukamosirann… < 1289839971 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dammit, I don't have Japanese Friend available! < 1289839985 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wouldn't help you anyways. < 1289839995 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, "There's probably kittens". < 1289840011 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(子猫たちがあるかもしらん) < 1289840069 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: i'm up for wiping out non-sentient lifeforms if we can make it beneficial :P < 1289840125 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the KITTENS < 1289840132 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:25:57 elliot: So, you said that Echoes was the only good part of Meddle... How convenient that that's half the album. < 1289840132 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:26:12 (the album is 46 minutes, Echoes is 23 minutes) < 1289840137 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Indeed! In fact it's one side. < 1289840151 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: So you could buy it and fashion the other side into a sculpture or something. < 1289840166 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:00:47 Isn't there some french ISP that has IPv6 in *production* use. < 1289840166 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:01:08 (not testing like Comcast). < 1289840171 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: Bogons.net offer it in the UK. < 1289840179 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:29:46 Just wondering, has anyone formulated a syntax for closures in LOLCODE? < 1289840182 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DIE DIE DIE < 1289840188 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alt.language.lolcode.die.die.die < 1289840229 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:56:34 * ais523_ thinks the existence of http://www.amazon.com/review/R403HR4VL71K8/ref=cm_cr_rdp_perm is hilarious; Peter Norvig wrote a review of SICP on Amazon < 1289840233 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but has he read his SICP today? < 1289840244 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I doubt he needs to, I suspect he's already completed the whole thing < 1289840256 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: (meme) < 1289840256 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :08:07:36 Phantom_Hoover: never use N the set, use restrictions of Z instead < 1289840256 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :08:07:42 mathematicians don't generally agree on how to define N < 1289840261 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the review itself is sane, I'm just amused at the person/book/location combo < 1289840264 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: strongly disagree, N is universally agreed to include 0 < 1289840266 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty much < 1289840269 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm aware it's a meme, I just don't see how it's a relevant one < 1289840271 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless mathematicians are much less sane than i thought < 1289840274 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like FUD to me < 1289840279 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, not according to Mathworld or WP/ < 1289840290 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it's far from universal, it's been around 50-50 for the mathematicians I've seen < 1289840301 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I myself refuse to use it due to ambiguity, unless either definition would work fine) < 1289840301 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: wrt SICP: It's a /prog/ meme, they don't have to be relevant, you just pattern-match on the word < 1289840307 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't Peano start with zero? < 1289840307 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't actually know what the teacher said in response, since she kicked me out of the lesson. < 1289840320 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, yes, but it doesn't actually define what 0 is. < 1289840323 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: what, before saying something in response? < 1289840333 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally, you get told why you're being thrown out before you're thrown out < 1289840335 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How odd at Wikipedia's intro. < 1289840347 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, which way round did you have it, which way round did the teacher have it? < 1289840352 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, well, I had just been told to shut up. < 1289840361 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: EDUCATION! < 1289840364 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: anyway, with zero is the obvious way to do it < 1289840373 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I was firmly in favour of 0 being in N. < 1289840375 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: e.g. for the 0 = {}, S(x) = x union {x} definition < 1289840379 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: and Peano numbers < 1289840388 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: I don't know of any nice construction that starts with < 1289840390 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: I don't know of any nice construction that starts with 1 < 1289840417 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you exclude 0, division is eas.. no it's not < 1289840419 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: fundamental theorem of arithmetic gets screwed up by 0 (although it has to special-case 1 too) < 1289840439 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: i quote your parenthesis in response < 1289840442 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ais523_: i quote your parenthesised statement in response < 1289840451 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: although, someone arguing that 1 isn't in N would be great < 1289840505 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you actually *define* multiplication without 1? < 1289840517 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: sure, just special case *2 < 1289840520 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x*2 = x+x < 1289840523 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x*(y+1) = x + x*y < 1289840541 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: ha, according to a comment on Norvig's review of SICP, The God Delusion is *less controversial* than SICP for ratings < 1289840543 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: that involves 1 < 1289840554 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: well, I was going to write S(y) < 1289840556 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean x*2 = x+x, x*3 = x+x+x, x*(y+2) = x + x + x*y < 1289840559 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then realised it might not be successor-based < 1289840560 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, that < 1289840563 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: heh < 1289840572 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"None of the major unix vendors (including Apple) have donated a dime to the makers of their ssh tool (they are called out in the last paragraph)" < 1289840579 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's open source software, guys. < 1289840594 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people who license their software under BSD, then complain when people use it commercially without compensation < 1289840598 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You use the BSD because you want shit like that to happen. Your project is one of the most vitrolic BSD advocates. < 1289840605 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So shut the fuck up. < 1289840618 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: "In the 10 years since the inception of the OpenSSH project, these companies have contributed not even a dime of thanks in support of the OpenSSH project (despite numerous requests)." < 1289840632 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: I wonder what a Theo de Raadt donation request looks like. < 1289840641 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Give me some fucking money or I'll shut down the CVS repository again?" < 1289840650 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I seem to remember Theo de Raadt has a famous personality, but I can't remember what it is < 1289840650 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(incidentally: great argument for distributed version control, the fact that he's done that twice after having a fit) < 1289840659 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: "major asshole" < 1289840675 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, fair enough < 1289840680 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the one hand, that's kinda sad — OpenSSH is good work, and they could do with some cash for it. On the other hand: them's the breaks, Theo. Sometimes, you'll do a bunch of hard work and only have the satisfaction of knowing that it's good work. < 1289840683 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: he flames almost everyone, has regular hissy fits, and has shut down the entire CVS repository (!) twice, in 2002 and 2010, just because he wasn't happy with how the developers were being. < 1289840704 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: there's a reason the NetBSD guys fired him :) < 1289840715 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently (with the usual Reddit-related meaning of "apparently"), he insisted donations were made to him personally rather than the BSD projects as a whole < 1289840717 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, we've got slightly asshole companies and a complete whiny bastard developer. < 1289840718 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even Torvalds thinks he's a pain < 1289840727 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: heh, I even *predicted* that a few lines ago < 1289840735 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523_: I wonder what a Theo de Raadt donation request looks like. < 1289840735 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "Give me some fucking money or I'll shut down the CVS repository again?" < 1289840739 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*again"? < 1289840747 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, is Linux GPLv2+, or GPLv2=? I can't remember < 1289840753 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: GPLv2 only. < 1289840759 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, makes sense < 1289840760 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: GPLv2= with some GPLv2+ parts. < 1289840777 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: I think GPLvN+ is *always* a mistake. < 1289840787 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you really honestly trust the FSF to *never* screw up the GPL, ever. < 1289840790 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With a GPLv3 migration *possible* if Torvalds sees an actual benefit in doing so. < 1289840801 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: linus has been pretty opposed to it < 1289840804 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: they've been pretty good at sticking to their own ideals so far < 1289840809 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: also, there are so many copyright holders that that would be almost impossible < 1289840818 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I trust them to do that, when I select the GPL as a license < 1289840822 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yes, but he's not unilaterally opposed to it — if it needed to happen, he'd make it happen. < 1289840825 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :proxied-GPLv3+ seems to make sense, anyway < 1289840831 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: I will never understand GPL users. :) < 1289840836 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Very relevant: http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/sandals-not-flip-flops < 1289840840 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(IIRC, it's the license Vorpal uses for his own projects) < 1289840843 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: And, yeah, doing so would probably involve *gigantic* labor. < 1289840871 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"My guess is that TiVo don’t actually do any DRM in the Linux kernel and that it’s all done in their proprietary user-space software. So, assuming they don’t use any GPL3 licensed code in that, the anti-DRM measures shouldn’t affect them." < 1289840872 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Massive license auditing and rewriting everything without the ability to relicense. < 1289840883 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is the kind of thing Gregor argues with me about :) < 1289840894 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I've thought about licensing things under AGPL to make it simultaneously a) open-source, and b) incompatible with everything < 1289840909 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TiVo signs the kernel; the anti-DRM measures would effect them. < 1289840922 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: AGPL isn't considered OSS by the opensource.org folks. < 1289840930 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: AGPL is the absolutely correct direction for the GPL position. That's why I dislike it. < 1289840935 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: hmm, I suppose not < 1289840961 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: you are a liar < 1289840963 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: [[The Open Source Initiative approved the GNU AGPLv3[3] as an open source license in March 2008 after Funambol submitted it for consideration.]] < 1289840969 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or just didn't do any research) < 1289840977 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ^ < 1289840984 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: picking a license is often pretty tricky, although I don't have objections to crazily-copyleft licenses like some people do < 1289840986 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://opensource.org/licenses/agpl-v3.html < 1289840987 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa I could've SWORN they explicitly said no at some point. < 1289840987 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: thanks for the correction < 1289841002 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Haven't we already established your memory is beyond useless? :P < 1289841002 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the AGPL? < 1289841020 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: GPL, plus a clause that you must disclose the source to anyone you allow to interact with the program via a network connection < 1289841024 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yes, but it's all I've got ;) < 1289841026 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: "GPL, except if you make the software's function available over a network service -- e.g., imagine running an AGPL-licensed reddit clone -- you must offer the source" < 1289841033 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: you have google < 1289841035 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1289841038 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinite memory and knowledge < 1289841040 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Affero General Public License. GPL plus a clause that you must disclose the source to anyone accessing it over the network. < 1289841041 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: What's Google? < 1289841048 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: It's this thing. < 1289841052 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, so... it would't even be possible to use Linux with it? < 1289841063 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: ??? < 1289841063 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I too would give you a description, because you haven't gotten enough, but blah blah blah. < 1289841065 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least, with binary-only drivers on the server. < 1289841067 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Trying to explain better: < 1289841078 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Say some reddit clone software was licensed under the AGPL. < 1289841084 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I think that would count as the OS rather than the application itself < 1289841086 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since the function of a driver is arguably exposed to the network. < 1289841087 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: You modify it to your delirious, insane wishes and start a website with it. < 1289841099 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: You MUST offer your modifications as AGPL, unlike with the GPL. < 1289841117 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, hyperinfectious. < 1289841126 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION stabs anyone who calls *GPL "infectious" < 1289841132 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : proxied-GPLv3+ seems to make sense, anyway (IIRC, it's the license Vorpal uses for his own projects) <-- only some of them. < 1289841135 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you don't like the license, DON'T USE IT, nobody's forcing you to. < 1289841148 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: here's an interesting anecdote: DCSS recently wanted to change its license from GPLv1 with one word changed, to a saner license (GPLv2+) < 1289841151 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, mostly due to lack of standard wording for the boilerplate < 1289841155 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they emailed every contributor asking if they agreed to the change < 1289841164 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I relicensed my contribution as public domain (as it was only two lines) < 1289841172 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, and then? < 1289841177 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The AGPLv3 is less crazy than the AGPLv1, at least. < 1289841180 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the and then hasn't happened yet < 1289841180 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: hmm, I'd have asked you to explicitly license it < 1289841188 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, ah, no punchline then < 1289841193 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: due to the uncertainty of public domain < 1289841211 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: actually, I did an "I release this code to the public domain, or if this is not legally possible, to the GPLv2+" with more legalesey language < 1289841213 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: also, gah, I keep reading DCSS as DeCSS < 1289841231 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1289841233 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it was a fun subversion on the usual public domain legality safeguard < 1289841254 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: BTW, if the FSF did crazy shit with the GPL, there would be some astounding lawsuits. The contract given with each and every copyright assignment requires them to make any licensing free software. < 1289841257 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, sorry, but I don't think there's a better word for stuff like that. < 1289841265 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm not entirely convinced my suggestion is copyrightable at all, as it was adding a couple of elements to a list) < 1289841285 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: By their definition of Free. < 1289841293 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: By the definition of Free in the contract. < 1289841305 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * It should be noted that the "0" in the above definition need not correspond to what we normally consider to be the number zero. "0" simply means some object that when combined with an appropriate successor function, satisfies the Peano axioms. All systems that satisfy these axioms are isomorphic, the name "0" is used here for the first element, which is the only element that is not a successor. For example, the < 1289841306 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: The GPL *is* viral. < 1289841308 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is their definition of Free, but not-mutable. < 1289841316 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interpreted as the natural number 1, the symbol S(0) as the number 2, etc. In fact, in Peano's original formulation, the first natural number was 1. < 1289841317 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: It probably allows for a lot of crazy. < 1289841332 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: yeah but clearly peano was a moron < 1289841369 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: No one is forcing you to link against something under the GPL. You can always just NOT do that. Viruses do not give you a choice. < 1289841372 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: my guess is that it would be financial suicide for the FSF to ever release a GPLv4 which was anything other than a typically Stallmanesque strong-copyleft license < 1289841390 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the word "viral" is pretty useless in this context < 1289841396 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: like the FSF have any money < 1289841412 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: Gigantic lawsuit if it was non-free, and the FSF would cease to be if it were anything but a copyleft license. < 1289841413 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the GPL gives you additional rights, which you can use only under certain defined conditions which involve making other things GPL too < 1289841415 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: And viral marketing doesn't force you to watch this thinly-veiled advert for Doritos Incarnadine Splodge, either. < 1289841425 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Shut up and accept the loosened definition of the term. < 1289841448 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: what's your opinion on the wiki clause in the GFDL? < 1289841453 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: fun fact, the FSF offers unpaid internment^Winternships < 1289841457 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder who on earth would want to. < 1289841470 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm personally a supporter of it, but it's the sort of thing which might well scare people off < 1289841487 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: in my opinion, it's both a good thing because the GFDL is shitty and Wikipedia shouldn't use it, but also, it's the PERFECT evidence for why trusting the FSF to update the license on your code is a TERRIBLE TERRIBLE IDEA < 1289841516 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well, to me, it's an example of how the FSF can be trusted to act much like the FSF < 1289841525 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Which is why the GPLv3 *has* the damned proxy clause. < 1289841525 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a sensible solution to an unforeseen issue with the license < 1289841533 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably the best bit in it. < 1289841540 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1289841559 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: what issue? "it sucks"? < 1289841564 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I like the one that lets you correct a licensing mistake within 30 days of being notified < 1289841577 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe the AGPL says only over a network, but I think it should be more general than that. < 1289841580 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it's clearly designed for hefty books, not individual articles < 1289841600 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it works fine for, say, the C-INTERCAL manual (which I chose GFDL for after some thought), but not for Wikipedia's lists of Pokémon < 1289841605 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: it's bad there too :) < 1289841616 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: what would you recommend instead? CC-by-sa? < 1289841618 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: I'm really sad that the Pokémon articles got deleted < 1289841624 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: they were really good quality... < 1289841624 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they were merged, mostly < 1289841630 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: into lists, and then stripped down immensely < 1289841635 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the issue wasn't that they weren't good quality, but that they were all basically identical < 1289841646 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1289841646 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should be apply to any software you communicate with, so if it is not running on your computer; a network doesn't matter. < 1289841657 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: err, any communication is a network < 1289841662 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if it's just a network of two < 1289841677 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, are you saying that someone who runs fortune(1) for you and snail mails you the output must be required to include its source code? < 1289841681 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, well, offer it < 1289841683 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: But the AGPL ought to apply to a kiosk computer as well. < 1289841695 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: fortune(1) is an example of something that isn't sensible to have under AGPL < 1289841703 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I am not saying that someone runs a program for you and mails you the result manually) < 1289841707 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: hmm, an interesting point, you're entirely correct there if you consider the spirit of the license < 1289841718 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: indeed; i'd have to write my own if i wanted pithy homepage quotes :P < 1289841737 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose an AGPL-spirit kiosk computer should probably sell CDs with its own source code on at cost < 1289841842 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: but stallman could never afford that, it costs money! < 1289841860 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: who said it had to be RMS owning the kiosk? < 1289841888 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: well, he probably wants a copy of all GPL'd source just out of principle < 1289841897 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: I meant he could never afford a CD < 1289841902 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a copy of all the GPL source in the world would be kind-of useful < 1289841907 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1289841910 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm pretty sure Stallman isn't that personally ppor < 1289841912 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*poor < 1289841920 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: are you *sure*? < 1289841922 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it'd mean you wouldn't have to be online to obtain programs < 1289841931 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: no, but if he was a tramp, I'd probably have heard of it < 1289841941 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: well, he doesn't own a house. < 1289841950 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless that's changed recently < 1289841961 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds like the sort of thing he'd do via personal choice, actually < 1289841961 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, let's say maybe it is a kiosk computer that sells programs on USB, or that receives files on USB and sells a printing service, or something. In that case, perhaps another way is to have choice to copy the source files to USB at no extra cost (only the cost of the service the kiosk is selling is paid). < 1289841963 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does he rent one? < 1289841974 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: indeed, that would be a sensible option < 1289841976 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: no, hotels < 1289841980 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: he has no permanent residence < 1289841990 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: He's been unemployed for 25 years. < 1289841995 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who? < 1289841995 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: someone too poor to burn a CD wouldn't live in hotels < 1289841998 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're more expensive than renting < 1289841999 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: RMS < 1289842000 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: rms < 1289842004 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: his name is lowercase < 1289842018 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: And his permanent residence is the office space MIT offers him for hysterical raisins. < 1289842020 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: djb, rms, esr (order deliberate) < 1289842028 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: oh, I didn't know that < 1289842039 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, so Stallman's expenses are ... zero < 1289842043 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1289842045 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're food. < 1289842051 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@137.125.188.14 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289842053 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably the office space has internet of some sort < 1289842060 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: that sounds like the sort of life I'd live if I had the choice, actually < 1289842065 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except I'd stay at home < 1289842090 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: the genius with no work ethic, how cliché < 1289842115 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's also gotten $500,000 from the MacArthur Fellowship, which is probably enough to cover food costs. < 1289842125 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: heh < 1289842125 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I dislike structured work, it ruins my productivity, among other things < 1289842157 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, he doesn't usually stay in hotels; instead, he prefers to crash on someone's couch when he travels. < 1289842159 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: my current plan is to figure out a way to be able to have a "company" that's basically a lab doing esoteric stuff and somehow have it turn over a profit < 1289842163 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: and then hire everyone in here < 1289842170 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: gotta be possible, right?!?! < 1289842174 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somehow turning a profit is the difficult part < 1289842201 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: maybe it could just sell VPSes/dedicated hosting, it's not like it wouldn't have a bunch of computers and a network pipe anyway < 1289842215 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly, system administration is not exactly a barrel of fun < 1289842219 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: margins there are likely very tight < 1289842228 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: sure, but prgmr does it :) < 1289842232 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus profits low unless you scale up massively < 1289842235 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and turns a healthy profit < 1289842260 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: meh, i've got enough time to figure out the fiddly details < 1289842271 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: could just get regular research grants on insane esoteric things :) < 1289842304 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wondering about that < 1289842307 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: To keep a privately held business going you don't *need* massive profits. < 1289842311 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it might be kind-of hard to justify a grant < 1289842316 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just need to keep a balanced budget. < 1289842330 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: indeed; but to actually gain enough money from it to make a living, you need massive profits before you pay your employees < 1289842336 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: hey, people in academia make a living off of doing silly things in haskell < 1289842342 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: I'm sure it's possible :P < 1289842346 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the key is "privately held"; get stockholders involved and everything goes to shit) < 1289842357 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds like the sort of life I'm destined to end up in unless I really try to make myself a different one < 1289842361 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Paying employees is not part of your profits. < 1289842365 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's expenditure. < 1289842371 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes < 1289842373 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: well, my backup plan is to just get a Ph.D. in CS and do research < 1289842378 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which doesn't sound all that awful < 1289842381 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: heh, that's what I'm doing atm < 1289842419 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: as far as I'm concerned, the idea would be to try and combine expenses that lead to profit with expenses that we want; e.g. buying a bunch of servers and sticking them in a data centre to sell VPSes on also lets them be used for any computation that might be needed < 1289842423 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(assuming they don't get full) < 1289842430 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders why people pay RMS to do speeches. < 1289842437 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: because he's a celebrity < 1289842445 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, people pay /Tony Blair/ to do speeches < 1289842450 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I think it is ok for authors (please let's not call them creators, they are not gods) to ask for money for copies of their works (please let's not devalue these works by calling them content) in order to gain income (the term compensation falsely implies it is a matter of making up for some kind of damages)." --Stallman the Pedant < 1289842462 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: people pay *George W. Bush* to do speeches < 1289842465 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: The thing is, his speeches are precomposed, set speeches that he's been giving for years. < 1289842467 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quick, name your favourite GWB speech < 1289842470 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every once in a while he makes a new one. < 1289842476 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now name your favourite GWB speech mistake < 1289842487 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yet people still pay for them < 1289842489 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*That* is why I wonder why people pay him to do speeches. < 1289842507 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Also, Stallman avoids use of a key card to enter the building where his office is.[71] Such a system would track doors entered and times." < 1289842544 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's an interesting point < 1289842549 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unsurprising, though. < 1289842553 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people nowadays tend to do more tracking than a sane society would sensibly need < 1289842563 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, that doesn't necessarily mean that avoiding it for the sake of it is sane either < 1289842573 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given that he doesn't own a cell phone for the same reason. < 1289842612 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: I think he's trying to avoid disclosing that he never leaves :) < 1289842623 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/disclosing/reword the sentence better/ < 1289842627 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*more better like < 1289842799 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1289842959 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1289843028 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, the kerning on this browser is so bad that sometimes later letters end up before earlier ones < 1289843038 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can change where it happens by selecting bits of text < 1289843043 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which browser? < 1289843047 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Firefox on CentOS < 1289843058 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: gnome? < 1289843064 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :configure fonts or something. it ... might help < 1289843075 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, this is the crazy "gnome configured to act like KDE" public computer lab < 1289843302 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, an interesting topic being discussed on Reddit: glibc changed memcpy to increase the performance, and this changed its behaviour in the case where src and dest overlap (undefined behaviour for memcpy, you're supposed to use memmove there instead) < 1289843313 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the argument's about if they should have broken broken applications like that < 1289843436 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :relevant: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=638477#c31 (by Linus Torvalds, commenting on the valgrind output from Flash) < 1289843439 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.johnsphones.com/store/johns-phone-business/item45 <-- why is the "world's simplest cell phone" 80 friggin euros ... < 1289843454 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it a joke? Is it just a bad idea? < 1289843481 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: I wonder what eglibc will do. < 1289843491 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Tell adobe." LOL < 1289843503 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: cuz itz DESIGNER < 1289843515 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: eglibc's designed for embedded systems, I imagine it wouldn't use an optimized memcpy because that makes no sense on its typical target platforms < 1289843521 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: ...lol < 1289843524 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the issue probably wouldn't come up there < 1289843526 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: You do realise Debian and Ubuntu use eglibc, not glibc? < 1289843536 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: due to disagreeing with the maintainer of glibc < 1289843537 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: And that eglibc is just as designed for desktops as glibc? < 1289843544 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: It's not less optimised or anything... < 1289843547 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the e stands for "embedded", though, doesn't it? < 1289843548 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: It just has embedded support AS WELL. < 1289843554 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1289843556 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: i.e. additional architectures and the ability to compile less. < 1289843567 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: They also sync with upstream. So it is entirely possible they will use this new memcpy. < 1289843582 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :optimising for embedded hardware's different from optimising for desktops, though < 1289843596 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@137.125.188.14 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289843597 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nokia 4000 series < 1289843597 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Series skipped (see here) as a sign of politeness from Nokia towards East Asian customers. See tetraphobia. < 1289843599 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: they don't < 1289843602 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1289843623 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: listen, all the x86/x86-64 code is identical to glibc apart from maintenance, they just maintain it like usual < 1289843643 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1289843646 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: the *only* differences are (1) support for more embedded architectures and (2) slightly more modularity in what you can not compile < 1289843647 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :project name's a bit misleading, then < 1289843650 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i.e. you can disable more components) < 1289843653 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but fair enough < 1289843660 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: if you want to use glibc on an embedded platform, you use eglibc < 1289843669 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just that you use eglibc if you hate Drepper, too (and who doesn't?) :) < 1289843705 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Presumably Red Hat. < 1289843718 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I'm still not sure why Red Hat actually employ Drepper < 1289843727 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nor am I. < 1289843744 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: as far as I can tell, there are plenty of viable glibc maintainers that aren't huge assholes, and all he *ever* causes is public dislike, which isn't good for Red Hat < 1289843809 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can i just say that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraphobia is the most hilarious thing ever? < 1289843833 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, someone later on in that thread said they'd run a script that patched the binary of Flash to replace memcpy with memmove everywhere < 1289843839 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a pretty hilarious way to patch the bug < 1289843848 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: heh < 1289843850 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: hmm, "most hilarious thing ever" has a lot of competition < 1289843855 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, Ulrich Drepper has NIH! Ulrich Drepper has NIH! < 1289843857 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[I am currently working on a new set of binary utilities. They are meant to replace GNU binutils at least on my machine. The goal is to have all the commonly used functionality which is important on and for Linux available. Plus: fewer limitations (and bugs) when it comes to ELF file handling. < 1289843857 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GNU binutils suffer from supporting all kinds of binary formats and from what I consider mistakes in the development.]] < 1289843896 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"And for portability: this code is only meant for Linux. I don't give a rat's a** about non-ELF platforms. And platforms without the Linux API are not important either." < 1289843918 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: hey, I reimplemented binutils for gcc-bf < 1289843928 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly because I was completely ripping out the format of everything < 1289843937 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: NIH is a good thing! it's just funny because he's probably a jerk about it < 1289843986 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Stallman scored 1597 on the SAT (800 Math, 797 Verbal)." < 1289843990 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stallman's good at standardised tests; discuss. < 1289844001 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol: [[The article begins with : Richard Matthew Stallman (born March 16, 1953), often abbreviated "rms", and uses his homepage at stallman.org as a reference where he mentions : "Richard Stallman" is just my mundane name; you can call me "rms". Just because he refers to himself as "rms" does not mean it should be included, I think hes just trying to be friendly to visitors of his website. If publications or other reliable sources refer to hims a < 1289844001 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s "rms" then I agree it should be mentioned. --GateKeeperX (talk) 08:24, 13 November 2008 (UTC)]] < 1289844005 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia talk pages are hives of idiocy < 1289844032 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wretched ones, too. < 1289844042 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you got the specs for that computer? < 1289844044 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[I think I saw this guy in a James Bond movie as a hacker. It was the one about Rupert Murdoch taking over the world by making China go to war with the UK. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Peacekeep (talk • contribs) 02:07, 17 July 2008 (UTC)]] < 1289844051 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Jesus christ, I've been busy! :P < 1289844069 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You BETRAYED me! < 1289844080 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I hope that post was satirical. < 1289844101 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: hmm, it wasn't Rupert Murdoch, but Mr. Carver (I can't remember his first name) < 1289844104 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: nope < 1289844113 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O.o < 1289844118 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i don't think < 1289844149 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: [[ * "Stallman recommends not owning a mobile phone,[69] as he believes the tracking of cell phones creates harmful privacy issues.[70] Also, Stallman avoids use of a key card to enter the building where his office is.[71] Such a system would track doors entered and times. For personal reasons, he does not actively browse the web from his computer; rather, he uses wget and reads the fetched pages from his e-mail mailbox.[70]" < 1289844149 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can someone verify or present additional sources for these absurd claims? Some of the sources seem either falsified, out-of-context or just purely comical in nature. I find it hard to believe these were anything but bad jokes.76.67.111.164 (talk) 22:52, 2 May 2010 (UTC)]] < 1289844160 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stallman: So weird, nobody can believe Wikipedia about him. < 1289844173 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well, I don't have a mobile, but for a different reason < 1289844184 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[I think I saw this guy in a James Bond movie as a hacker. It was the one about Rupert Murdoch taking over the world by making China go to war with the UK. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Peacekeep (talk • contribs) 02:07, 17 July 2008 (UTC) < 1289844184 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Nope, that was Ricky Jay, playing the character of Henry Gupta in Tomorrow Never Dies. Though they do share some superficial similarity. // Meneth (talk) 00:03, 16 December 2008 (UTC)]] < 1289844185 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're reachable 24 hours a day, people try to reach you 24 hours a day < 1289844186 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :full quote < 1289844189 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see the superficial similarity. < 1289844196 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: while you're sleeping? < 1289844209 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: apparently, based on conversations with other people with mobiles < 1289844212 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although not all that often) < 1289844212 0 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.33 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289844234 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: I think that is not very common :P Not unless you have a lot of time zone-ignorant or ... what's the w- nocturnal, friends. < 1289844248 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: I'd like a mobile that doesn't have a phone. (Although it'd need a good typing mechanism, somehow.) < 1289844273 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it seems that the calls that you get around 4am or so are generally from drunk people < 1289844278 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1289844286 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps you have no friends who regularly get drunk? < 1289844287 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: or drunkard friends, i guess. < 1289844290 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1289844301 0 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.33 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289844311 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: nobody really calls me much, I'm speaking from second-hand collected experience here < 1289844322 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is obviously flawed and biased in numerous ways < 1289844339 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I could find oodles of citations on stallman.org for those. < 1289844395 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ideal wikipedia article is a single logical statement that is a theorem in almost all logical systems, and then a long list of references proving this in hundreds of them, published in respected journals < 1289844418 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott: it seems that the calls that you get around 4am or so are generally from drunk people <-- you can turn a phone off during the night. Or put it on silent. < 1289844478 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: indeed < 1289844486 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, I only ever get calls from family. SMS from everyone else who have my phone number. And never during night. Even when I forgot to turn it off during night (I usually do turn it off) < 1289844493 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although there's increasing social pressure, nowadays, for phone owners to leave it on whenever they can < 1289844505 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: not at night... < 1289844507 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: presumably, you're sensible enough to be careful in who you give your number to, rather than, say, posting it on Facebook < 1289844523 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, well, who cares about social pressure? I put it on offline mode during lectures for example < 1289844539 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: most people do, even if you and I mostly don't < 1289844541 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, I don't have facebook to begin with :P < 1289844547 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find it hard to believe that ais523_'s friends are stupid enough to get annoyed at him for turning his phone off. < 1289844552 0 :Zuu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, if anyone ever express that expectation, you just call them in the middle of the night ;) < 1289844554 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, indeed < 1289844554 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine they're far more irritated that he has no phone at all :) < 1289844561 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, my friends don't get annoyed from that either < 1289844565 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they do the same mostly < 1289844589 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, indeed. SMS is a great invention. < 1289844595 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and cheap. < 1289844597 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: SMS is obsolete < 1289844605 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, no one I know uses MMS < 1289844610 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: MMS is stillborn. < 1289844611 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if that is what you mean < 1289844619 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, then what is the replacement you suggest < 1289844638 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I hardly have any friends, so it's mostly irrelevant < 1289844639 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: also, SMS isn't cheap, it's grossly oversold; the cost of sending an SMS for the networks is 0; counting costs of infrastructure, it's, like, 0.001p < 1289844644 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, everyone I know use SMS for communicating within the group of friends. < 1289844646 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Email is the replacement. < 1289844653 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and IRC >>>> SMS < 1289844654 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, uh. I get 5000 free / month on my plan. < 1289844660 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: IRC is realtime < 1289844661 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that is a *data* plan mostly < 1289844665 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: exactly < 1289844669 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you're in Sweden :) < 1289844673 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you really need to say something to someone out-of-bound, use email < 1289844675 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: there's social pressure to respond quickly < 1289844678 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*out-of-ban < 1289844679 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: also, agreed w/ emial < 1289844680 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*out-of-band < 1289844681 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*email < 1289844683 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: on SMS, too < 1289844686 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: SMS is just limited email < 1289844687 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, most I sent during a month: 78 < 1289844691 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that was one extreme case < 1289844699 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I texted you and you never replied!" is the sort of thing you overhear in corridors all the time < 1289844711 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: oh, over here, it's common for people to have long SMS conversations, IRC-style < 1289844724 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, well perhaps. But not on keypad phones I bet :P < 1289844746 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: even on keypad phones < 1289844747 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is still very common < 1289844749 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1289844752 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, huh < 1289844758 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got unlimited SMS. < 1289844759 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you not know about predictive texting? < 1289844762 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you have no idea how fast people type on keypad phones < 1289844770 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :their thumbs would like to secede from their bodies < 1289844774 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, it picks only the number sequences that correspond to actual words < 1289844779 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and go somewhere with more freedom < 1289844784 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, the dictionary certainly helps indeed < 1289844784 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a button to change between other words that happen to collapse to the same number sequence < 1289844787 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it works pretty well < 1289844791 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal knows what predictive texting is :P < 1289844792 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though it's probably overcharged. (I don't pay the bill, so I don't know) < 1289844809 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I use the dictionary. Means one key press per letter of the word < 1289844814 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: I had to get my mother to start to use predictive texting, it was painful watching her thumb slowly give up on life. < 1289844816 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless other phones are more advanced < 1289844816 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: = predictive texting < 1289844833 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it annoys me it can't complete the word if there is just one alternative < 1289844842 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: ? < 1289844845 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like when you are writing a long one where the ending is more or less given at that point < 1289844845 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it can < 1289844851 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, not on my phone < 1289844856 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you mean tab-complete-like? < 1289844859 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, yes < 1289844863 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most words can be pluralised or changed to end -ing, etc < 1289844868 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there's nearly always at least two alternatives < 1289844892 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, well, fairly limited range. And it could complete up to the point of diverging < 1289844979 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: hmm, actually, the KDE file selection dialogs do that, and it's really annoying < 1289844983 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it breaks your muscle memory < 1289844991 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: ugh, I hate that dialogue < 1289844998 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should have to hit the equivalent of tab to move on < 1289845010 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, KDE file selection fails badly when I want to type the directory name in the list. to find it. It finds it. But doesn't select it < 1289845014 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you know what I mean < 1289845031 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, and sure, tab would work < 1289845039 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: hmm, I think that for anything longer than a few words, taking a laptop out of your bag, opening the lid, clicking an email client and clicking Compose might actually result in a quicker message-sending time, due to the full-sized keyboard < 1289845041 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that lacks from my phone < 1289845054 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, depends on what phone < 1289845057 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, awesome feature of Kate: you can return-complete words even in plain-text documents < 1289845072 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: any phone with a keypad < 1289845073 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it looks for long words you've used more than once or twice, and adds them to an internal return-completion dictionary < 1289845074 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iPhone is arguable < 1289845080 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends if you're superhuman or not < 1289845090 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, n900 should manage fairly well though < 1289845094 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a damn good iPhone typist now, after having fast-paced #esoteric'd with it for a lot of months < 1289845103 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: err, it lacks a keyboard, right? < 1289845105 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I couldn't reasonably type on a laptop while balancing it on my other hand < 1289845110 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: get a bench :P < 1289845110 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, n900 has slide out < 1289845114 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, small one < 1289845114 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the mobile phone scenario doesn't assume the presence of a nearby desk < 1289845117 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not full sized < 1289845121 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so still slower than a laptop < 1289845138 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: oh, too-small keyboards are worse than touchscreens < 1289845144 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are probably the worst < 1289845151 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even worse than keypads < 1289845152 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it has touchscreen as well < 1289845155 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it's resistive < 1289845161 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, yes so it works with gloves < 1289845161 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good luck typing well on a resistive, non-multitouch touchscreen < 1289845166 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(hint: impossible) < 1289845178 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: good luck typing with gloves on any touchscreen at all ever even in the year 5 million... < 1289845229 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, true. But you could still use it to dial :P when it is -15 C and a hard wind. < 1289845245 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to call about the bus having got stuck or something < 1289845284 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: there was a Slashdot submission about a new type of glove designed specifically to work on capacitative touchscreens... < 1289845285 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, basically if you can't dial from the phone with your gloves on during the darkest period of the Swedish winter I'm not interested. < 1289845294 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, whatever happened to styluses? < 1289845298 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, for keypad, backlit keys are a must < 1289845316 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: they're lame, obviously < 1289845331 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, sure but they aren't that easy to get out in bad condition :P < 1289845339 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: well, I use them on touchscreens (but then, I don't own a mobile) < 1289845341 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc n900 has a stylus in it < 1289845346 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to make more sense than getting the screen greasy < 1289845369 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They have capacitive styluses too. < 1289845389 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, indeed. But not having to fiddle with that to make a call is a big plus < 1289845401 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not all of us live in sunny climates :P < 1289845404 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people use phones to make /calls/ nowadays? < 1289845427 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I use landlines for that very occasionally < 1289845447 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I even have a reverse-charge payphone number, although it's rarely used due to the general absence of payphones) < 1289845460 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They should rename EGLIBC to NonDrepperGLIBC < 1289845510 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1289845517 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, you don't make calls? Or SMS? < 1289845533 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and SMS with gloves on is tricky even on keypad < 1289845535 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I have a perfectly good rotary phone! < 1289845538 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I make calls on a landline occasionally, usually to other landlines < 1289845549 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: touchtone, but relatively old < 1289845553 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, well.. I do it from my mobile every now and then < 1289845553 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : If it was good enough for 1901, damn it it's good enough for me! < 1289845575 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, probably it will last longer than my mobile :P < 1289845583 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(non-smartphone) mobile phones are massively overpriced for what they do, I don't see why people are willing to pay for them < 1289845585 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :build quality was better back then < 1289845597 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: In the US, they're not. < 1289845605 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Sweden they aren't that much < 1289845605 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: They are however willing to lock themselves into long contracts ;) < 1289845619 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, only if you buy them from carrier < 1289845627 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can buy that stuff separately < 1289845630 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: In the US, you buy them from the carrier :P < 1289845640 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, Why on earth < 1289845656 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Hell, half our carriers don't even use GSM, and the ones that do are on a different band than the rest of the world, and they all have different 3G bands. < 1289845664 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm on a non-GSM carrier *shrugs* < 1289845695 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: the US phone situation looks insane from the UK, but I imagine vice versa as well < 1289845712 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: I don't know anything about the UK phone situation :P < 1289845718 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :advertising feature genuinely used by a mid-sized mobile phone operator: if you top your phone up £10, you get £30 of credit < 1289845722 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the US phone situation IS insane. < 1289845742 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: it's insane on both sides, but in completely different ways < 1289845746 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm aware of the US phone situation) < 1289845765 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I have a whoopdidoo smartphone :P < 1289845765 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the UK situation, generally speaking, is that you get a phone independent of any contract, and get a SIM card, nowadays generally also independent of any contract < 1289845766 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finland tends to be somewhat pricey place when it comes to consumer electronics, but I don't think our dumbphones cost very much. You can get a reasonable basic phone for <30 EUR (< 25 GBP) from the store; at least a while ago buying any phones from the carrier was pretty rare. Er, except for the one-carrier-exclusive iPhone, of course. < 1289845804 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in order to actually be able to make calls, you "top up" the phone by sending money to the owners of the SIM card; it used to be done at supermarkets and grocery stores, but nowadays it's often done via ATMs instead < 1289845817 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : advertising feature genuinely used by a mid-sized mobile phone operator: if you top your phone up £10, you get £30 of credit <-- can you extract that somehow and then start a new cycle? :D < 1289845821 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then that money can be spent to make calls or texts, at rather extortionate rates < 1289845824 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: nope < 1289845836 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, aww. Their lawyers are too smart < 1289845840 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, the amount of "credit" you have is just an arbitrary number, even if it's normally expressed as money < 1289845845 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: So they're all pay-as-you-go, no monthly rate and/or contract plans? No unlimited plans? < 1289845854 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"and get a SIM card, nowadays generally also independent of any contract" < 1289845856 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I'm getting to that bit < 1289845856 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1289845861 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, how would that work? < 1289845869 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean < 1289845870 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, generally speaking you can opt into all sorts of plans < 1289845871 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who makes them < 1289845878 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: the SIM card doesn't work until you pay the manufacturer < 1289845879 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some generic SIM card company? < 1289845882 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: A pre-paid thing, I believe. < 1289845886 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh < 1289845888 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: There are lots of no-contract plans here too, just they come with a SIM card in a shitty phone rather than just a SIM card :P < 1289845890 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just pre-paid plan? < 1289845893 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay < 1289845895 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they're made via the individual phone manufacturers < 1289845912 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, typical phone plans would offer X in return for topping up at rate Y < 1289845925 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. you'd get 5000 free texts per month as long as you topped up at least £10 a weak < 1289845962 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1289845975 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : it seems to make more sense than getting the screen greasy < 1289845978 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oleophobic < 1289845989 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, unused credit tends to disappear after a certain length of time < 1289845996 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: nah, it just makes the text hard to read < 1289846022 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I'll bbiab, changing computer < 1289846024 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1289846024 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: fail < 1289846030 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(at understanding) < 1289846037 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1289846052 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Due to the configuration error GitHub's production database was destroyed then re-created." < 1289846070 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, no normal style contracts? Like mine, one year binding time, student-discount, free data traffic, but if you pass 2 GB / month it will be throttled to a rather lower speed. 5000 free SMS per month. Calls slightly more expensive than landline. 98 SEK / month, though 29 SEK until the end of the year (special offer) < 1289846088 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh he left < 1289846118 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, err.. They had no backup? < 1289846122 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Here, like in all messages, I will be sure to demonstrate Swedish superiority with piercing accuracy to demonstrate how superior our technological economics is. I will pretend this is normal and act surprised at your backwards, non-Swedish nations when it turns out not to be. < 1289846125 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, and what did it contain? < 1289846125 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: who said that? < 1289846129 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: they restored from a backup < 1289846142 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it contained... GitHub < 1289846146 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not the git repositories < 1289846149 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ah < 1289846149 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but all the fluff around them < 1289846155 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In other news, fate has smiled upon me and I got a new cardy thing. < 1289846156 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, right. Could have been waaaay worse then < 1289846156 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1289846163 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yeah < 1289846167 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shall attempt to see if I can get MineCraft with it soonish. < 1289846167 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oleophobic wasn't referring to you < 1289846168 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The SMS thing is also very crazy; "free data traffic" except if you want to send 140-character 7-bit messages, then it's not free. < 1289846169 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: they exist, but they aren't very common < 1289846178 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the iPhone 3G S onwards use oleophobic screens, which means that fingerprints don't stick to them < 1289846181 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was this recent Nielsen study -- in the US, I think -- that girls in the [13, 17] age group send on average 4050 text messages per month; assuming 30 days of 6 hours of sleep (18 awake), that's 7.5 messages per hour. < 1289846189 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it just gets slightly grubby, and a single wipe gets them all off < 1289846191 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the sort of people who buy them are traditionalists < 1289846196 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, actually I'm surprised your don't have something like that plan I mentioned. I would expect slightly more expensive. Say 2000 free SMS / month. and maybe 1.5 GB data < 1289846202 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and somewhat higher price < 1289846209 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes I would expect something along similar lines < 1289846220 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: *you < 1289846224 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my iPhone contract has... 500 free texts < 1289846228 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and N free minutes for some N < 1289846232 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: that reminds me of a study a while ago, where it turns out that the average length of time people spending Facebook is now so high it's significant even if you average across the entire population of the word < 1289846233 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and unlimited data usage < 1289846238 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's £30/month or so < 1289846241 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also the 7-bit SMS charset gets people killed. < 1289846242 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I forget the exact amount) < 1289846242 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, N=-3. < 1289846244 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's rather awful < 1289846254 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1289846256 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me convert < 1289846262 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, the 7-bit charset is the ASCII, isn't it? < 1289846272 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :331 SEK < 1289846276 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: No, at least in GSM networks it's a different encoding. < 1289846277 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay that's quite expensive < 1289846291 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSM_03.38 < 1289846304 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, also SMS uses unicode nowdays iirc? < 1289846311 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Can. < 1289846314 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: smartphone plans are generally saner than the pay-as-you-go dumbphone plans < 1289846319 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Probably for the iPhone. I didn't say 7-bit, fizzie did. < 1289846321 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yes and does so by default since... years? < 1289846325 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but much more expensive < 1289846326 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ah right < 1289846330 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the contract plans are saner than the pay-as-you-go ones, yet they're really unpopular for some reason < 1289846331 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I hate technology. < 1289846344 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well, you'd expect it to be more expensive as it's a much higher bandwidth requirement < 1289846362 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it costs something like twice as much as the residential broadband connectino < 1289846364 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*connection < 1289846374 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems reasonable < 1289846380 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, not really < 1289846386 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: see, e.g. Sweden :P < 1289846387 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Only if your handset manufacturer bothers, which might not be the case for the cheapest possible phone. < 1289846387 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, every carrier I checked with allows tethering in Sweden. But warns that due to technical issues it won't work with iphone. < 1289846397 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc in US they don't allow that < 1289846407 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: The iPhone's tethering got nuked when the carriers decided they didn't want people using it. < 1289846413 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It's still in there, just not in the US. < 1289846415 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You can unlock it.) < 1289846419 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Regarding "gets people killed", I was referring to http://gizmodo.com/382026/a-cellphones-missing-dot-kills-two-people-puts-three-more-in-jail though I guess it's more of a phone-software issue. Still. < 1289846421 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@137.125.180.96 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289846424 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, err handset? err? < 1289846429 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Awesome. Wifi works here but not next to my classroom < 1289846435 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a pay-as-you-go thing on my phone. < 1289846436 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: AT&T's business model, you see, is "Dammit, our network sucks! I blame the iPhone users for trying to use the Internet, like they pay us exorbitant rates to do." < 1289846448 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hah < 1289846448 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: "We can't upgrade it because it's NOT OUR FAULT, you're the ones trying to use it." < 1289846450 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I haven't used it since forever, so... < 1289846466 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the business model for every Internet provider in the US. < 1289846484 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :US telecommunication is insane < 1289846495 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so is Sweden. But in a different way < 1289846498 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(FRA, and so on) < 1289846499 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yes, handset. If your phone can input only the characters in the mandatory GSM 7-bit alphabet, it probably doesn't much help if your network would in theory be able to support messages encoded in UTF-16. < 1289846535 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, err. I know my phone has an option for "use unicode" in some menu < 1289846539 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for SMS < 1289846550 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, but why do you call it handset, not phone? < 1289846554 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the US cellphone providers (I forget which) had an easily-accidentally-pressed button on their phone homepage which would try to access a data page and then charge you at ridiculous rates at data usage; if you asked them to cancel your data plan so that it wouldn't happen, pressing the button instead popped up a page saying you had your data plan turned off - over the Internet - then charged you for the bandwidth for that < 1289846556 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is what I'm confused about < 1289846560 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget which, but it would fit with any of them < 1289846582 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: is there any industry anywhere in the world that /isn't/ insane? < 1289846601 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION reappears. < 1289846607 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, "phone homepage"? Wouldn't that require a data plan to reach? < 1289846609 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My Sprint 3G is faster than my home cable internet :P < 1289846658 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so you should be secure from that simply by not being able to reach it < 1289846663 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Often they have a sort of whitelist of free pages. < 1289846666 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: as I said, if you didn't have a data plan it reached a page saying you didn't have a data plan, then charged you for the data needed to reach it < 1289846679 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1289846683 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It's a common term. Cf. the Open Handset Alliance, the group who make mobile phones. < 1289846695 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but that would require you to open the browser on the phone first? < 1289846697 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or? < 1289846704 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A handset is any device that is held in the hand. However, in these days, the term handset describes a mobile phone device." (Telecom Dictionary) < 1289846748 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hah. I shall start calling a screwdriver a handset :P < 1289846750 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: indeed, but it was easy to do by accident < 1289846754 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm < 1289846759 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, very weird < 1289846767 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also, couldn't you change the home page? < 1289846772 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it made a lot of money for the carrier, why was that not weird? < 1289846773 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A telephone transmitter and receiver combined in a single instrument." (OED) < 1289846778 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't know the details to that level < 1289846785 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, because it would scare away customers < 1289846785 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Vorpal: it made a lot of money for the carrier, why was that not weird? < 1289846789 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maliciousness deserves to be weird < 1289846789 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-not presumably < 1289846802 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad PR and so on < 1289846802 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OED is one stroke away from QED < 1289846814 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it's not like phone companies have any karma to start with < 1289846823 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: "Alternatively, the press could ask for banning knives from the homes of demonstrably stupid people." X-D < 1289846829 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How's it going with WAP, anyway? Still alive? < 1289846840 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1289846844 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, so dead. < 1289846853 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1289846885 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_Application_Protocol#Commercial_status -- not dead in Asia, despite some i-mode competition. < 1289846984 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'm big in Japan. < 1289847051 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't that an Alphaville song? < 1289847073 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is.. < 1289847096 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone's .mod rendition was possibly my first-ever piece of tracker music I ever got: there was an ALPHAVIL.MOD on some floppy. (Or maybe .s3m.) < 1289847134 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Godzilla's big in Japan. Also, everywhere. < 1289847198 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1289847371 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, here's contents of the 8 floppies of Finnish-localized Excel 5 for Windows 3.1. There's an "asenna.exe", since fi:asenna is the second-person imperative form of en:install. < 1289847429 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And MAGELINK.ZIP, very useful if you have two DOS computers in an IPX network and need to move data between them. It is good to keep all this important stuff. < 1289847545 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:16:58 ais523: can you *believe* rutian still exists? <--- I'd be quite surprised that nobody had unVMed it by now < 1289847549 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, ais is gone < 1289847556 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have no idea what he was trying to say there < 1289847777 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Switched to a non-tiling window manager yet? I need to adopt my opinions from *someone* and you're conveniently the last non-me person to talk. < 1289847840 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I'm still Awesome, sorry. < 1289847847 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: More like LAMESOME. < 1289847852 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the inertia of it. < 1289847911 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, rutian? < 1289847916 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds familiar < 1289847931 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: that little IP that I wiped every few months < 1289847937 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think you've used it < 1289847946 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it hosted eso-std and other stuff. < 1289847949 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1289847976 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I don't think I used it though. Except for looking at the web page < 1289848103 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I think you did, once. < 1289848105 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget why. < 1289848109 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aww, tusho.eso-std.org has not been archivated. < 1289848163 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, surely you have a local backup? < 1289848183 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: uhh, maybe on the iMac. somewhere. < 1289848193 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it held exactly one (1) blog post, once < 1289848220 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it was a (single-user) wiki with embedded code! < 1289848224 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: and it edited in my editor! < 1289848229 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: The way it did this was pure EVIL. < 1289848251 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Every page on tusho.eso-std.org had an "Edit" link on it, which linked to e.g. http://localhost:8080/edit?page=page-title. < 1289848276 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I ran a webserver locally that, upon loading /edit, looked at the page parameter, started my editor with /path/to/site/page-title.markdown, and then *redirected to whatever the browser said the Referer was*. < 1289848288 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@78.104.81.105 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289848288 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1289848289 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I'd click it, my editor would appear, and the page would stay there. Ingenious! Horrible. But ingenious. < 1289848392 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was a rather pointless hack, come to think of it. < 1289848402 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Vorpal: and it edited in my editor! <-- which one? < 1289848406 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not leaden I presume < 1289848415 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: at the time I used TextMate, because Emacs on OS X was really irritating < 1289848422 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1289848486 0 :MigoMipo_!~John@84-217-8-99.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1289848689 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1289848746 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, what happened to n=foo in hostnames? < 1289848795 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, turned into the more conventional ~ < 1289848798 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, some time ago < 1289848805 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably around change to ircd-seven < 1289848944 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:41:36 --- topic: set to 'the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Oh god it smells of java.' by optbot < 1289849010 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:58:55 fizzie: i think i can compile BF into it < 1289849010 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:59:09 optbot: BF into what? NURRR so confused. < 1289849010 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:59:09 fizzie: lament! < 1289849030 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:00:35 fizzie: it's sauna, bye for a while.. < 1289849331 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah, plan9port doesn't seem to have a separated dial(). < 1289850252 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this approximation of peach melba is quite tasty < 1289851180 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1289851284 0 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.33 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289852025 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "\0366\0/66\0/24\0/42\0177} < 1289852027 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lolbroken < 1289852584 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: my C program is slow! and broken! < 1289852593 0 :digimunk!~david.man@prague.dreamhost.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1289852608 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you're doing it wrong < 1289852622 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :write it faster, right it write < 1289852628 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"right it write" :D < 1289852632 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :intentional or ironic? < 1289852639 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both, I'd say < 1289852642 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: in this case, my sin appears to be using write() to do things one char at a tim < 1289852644 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*time < 1289852665 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, the downside of write, it doesn't do any buffering but translates to one syscall per call < 1289852695 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: yeah, thankfully i can do this simply < 1289852698 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by simply having an output buffer < 1289852907 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: for the record, I do not recommend C for scripting tasks < 1289852908 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1289852932 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Noted. :) < 1289853068 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: but now it runs instantly! < 1289853081 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sweet, O(0)? < 1289853083 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, will Mitosis Lisp be 1? < 1289853085 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep! < 1289853088 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: ? < 1289853090 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, heh? < 1289853094 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: oh. yes. probably :) < 1289853097 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: if it even is lisp! < 1289853101 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: "instantly!" < 1289853101 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, a Lisp-1? < 1289853103 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, ah < 1289853109 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: aniway O(0) is reddundant < 1289853111 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dats 0(0) < 1289853114 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an 0 x 0 = 0 < 1289853114 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what else could it be‽ < 1289853125 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slightly faster than O(1) < 1289853129 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: A Lisp-Smalltalk hybrid? (Note: Smalltalk is a good language despite Sgeo.) < 1289853135 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: datz 1 cuz 1 x n = n < 1289853136 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lisptalk! < 1289853141 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sry < 1289853142 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: datz 1 cuz 1 x n = 1 < 1289853147 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: i lernt dis in math scool < 1289853150 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Lalk. < 1289853150 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My god, the pun is strong with that idea. < 1289853170 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Lisp-Induced Social Awkwardness Following an Abortive Attempt at Small Talk < 1289853177 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: ^ language name (LISAFAAST for short) < 1289853181 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aka "Lisa Fast" < 1289853202 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: things I do recommend: storing your data files as part of the program < 1289853205 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it'll use Smalltalk's OO-ness with Lisp's syntax and macros? < 1289853236 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Something like that! Although I actually like syntax a bit... but nothing an editor can't be a genius about, so no syntax-changing macros or anything. (Lisp-style macros are fine.) < 1289853236 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever. < 1289853241 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's all in the clouds, as they say. Do they say that? < 1289853260 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the proper expression is "air" < 1289853273 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yep, it's teh win, at least if you have the data in a form you can use right away and the data doesn't require relocation < 1289853305 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I wonder if that relro thingy allows relocated data to be shared between processes < 1289853313 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I was reading that nomad minecraft blog. Looking at the map of the first 20 days. :D 848x16880 pixels Yes that is very very tall < 1289853355 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hmm, so you'd define a new read function for new syntaxes? < 1289853375 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: wow < 1289853378 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: must be a huge save :) < 1289853394 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Or just not have new syntaxes? < 1289853410 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, but you can't not use Lisp syntax for everything! < 1289853414 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I mean, editors that you can click any part of the program and get docs about them and cross-reference them and... is the whole point of all this. < 1289853417 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It wouldn't be LISP then! < 1289853418 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well, 6.1 MB png iirc < 1289853418 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I may just use Lisp syntax for everything :) < 1289853420 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Lisp < 1289853422 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the map < 1289853422 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not LISP :P < 1289853425 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: save file, though < 1289853427 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, anyway that was 20 days into it < 1289853435 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, those were EMPHASIS caps! < 1289853445 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well. Yes. To some degree. It is not nearly as wide as my save though < 1289853451 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, rand() is automatically seeded on a modern system, right? < 1289853469 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, link? < 1289853478 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://towardsdawns.blogspot.com/2010/10/recap-first-20-days.html < 1289853482 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on there < 1289853486 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he put it on megaupload < 1289853496 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so direct link to map would be impossible < 1289853531 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lines.c:183889:79: warning: trigraph ??! ignored, use -trigraphs to enable < 1289853533 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: THIS IS GOING GREAT < 1289853555 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: trigraphs!? wtf are you doing? < 1289853565 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: it just so happens that my data strings include "??!" < 1289853568 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: which is, as it happens, a trigraph < 1289853574 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so gcc... warns me about it < 1289853575 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks gcc! < 1289853620 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, so when you compile on a compiler that silently supports trigraphs, you'll have your data corrupted :) < 1289853634 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does ??! turn into? < 1289853639 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: | < 1289853654 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: foo??!??! exit(1); // Gotta love the WTF operator. < 1289853661 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trigraphs: the worst idea ever. < 1289853673 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BEST IDEA < 1289853675 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: yep < 1289853681 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do hope pikhq only knew that because he looked it up after reading elliott's line < 1289853683 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: i could just escape them, but fuck that < 1289853724 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: No. < 1289853741 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have used trigraphs for insanity. < 1289853744 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lines.c:103227: warning: left-hand operand of comma expression has no effect < 1289853746 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the FUCK. < 1289853769 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Digraphs are much much better. < 1289853772 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I... do not understand this. < 1289853781 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: stupid me, I should've expected as much from someone #esoteric... < 1289853786 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+in < 1289853788 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(they are only handled during tokenization) < 1289853806 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does gcc do digraphs by default? < 1289853813 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess not < 1289853844 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: "If rand is called before any calls to srand have been made, the same sequence shall be generated as when srand is first called with a seed value of 1." < 1289853868 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know what, you could write (or find) a silly utility that converts binary data to elf files directly < 1289853892 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: groan < 1289853895 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least convert everything to reliable data like \xXX or list of decimals :) < 1289853914 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: -rw-r--r-- 1 elliott elliott 79M Nov 15 20:44 lines.c < 1289853921 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: I think anything that is more reliable would also be FAR TOO FUCKING BIG < 1289853938 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: What, like stick the binary data as a symbol in there? < 1289853943 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: *Easy*. < 1289853959 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: exactly < 1289853965 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : *bp++ = '\\'; < 1289853966 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : *bp++ = ((*ip >> 6) & 7) + '0'; < 1289853966 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : *bp++ = ((*ip >> 3) & 7) + '0'; < 1289853966 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : *bp++ = (*ip & 7) + '0'; < 1289853975 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone plz tell me why this doesn't convert to a valid octal escape sequence < 1289853981 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm dumb enough that my mind is broken < 1289854024 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is ip a signed type? or even "char"? < 1289854031 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: ip is char < 1289854038 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should probably make it unsigned < 1289854039 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by default that's signed on gcc < 1289854041 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What *do* you get into bp, then, if not a valid? < 1289854045 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1289854050 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: \7xx and other shit < 1289854065 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otoh, the &7 should pretty much fix that < 1289854074 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah well let's see < 1289854086 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: it now appears to work fine < 1289854090 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using unsigned chars and: < 1289854093 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : *bp++ = (*ip >> 6) + '0'; < 1289854093 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : *bp++ = ((*ip >> 3) & 7) + '0'; < 1289854093 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : *bp++ = (*ip & 7) + '0'; < 1289854101 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, gcc doesn't exactly process the file fast. < 1289854117 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: in fact, it would be like 500x quicker to do this at runtime, but THAT WOULD REQUIRE PARSING A FILE < 1289854121 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can probably just pre-create a static elf header with the right symbol name, and replace the size of that symbol with the actual size from a binary < 1289854127 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, my binary would be less than 70 megs < 1289854132 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that is unacceptable < 1289854137 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Well, right-shifting signed, negative numbers is implementation-defined, and could sign-extend, leading to 7s in the first number, instead of zero-extending it properly. < 1289854178 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: I could be pragmatic and not include lines.c in the main C file and just link it separately < 1289854180 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT WHY? < 1289854194 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Note: I will have to do this really soon or I shall go insane.) < 1289854216 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"[...] I shall go insane." < 1289854233 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well, that's why, right there < 1289854242 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha lines.c crashes emacs for a bit < 1289854259 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the same time you start compiling it separately you can just as well fix that binary-file magic < 1289854276 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: I could just write an actual parser. < 1289854435 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It certainly does seem to enable digraphs by default: < 1289854436 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ echo 'int foo(int a<::>) <% return a<:42:>; %>' | gcc -xc -c -o test.o - && echo okay < 1289854436 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1289854472 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: X_X even with -std=c89 < 1289854473 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1289854478 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because digraphs are a c99 feature < 1289854496 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not with that. < 1289854505 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::1: error: expected ‘;’, ‘,’ or ‘)’ before ‘<’ token < 1289854505 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::1: error: expected identifier or ‘(’ before ‘%’ token < 1289854505 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, there is: http://tigcc.ticalc.org/doc/gnuasm.html#SEC97B in gas - perhaps a bit of global inline assembly would be the perfect way of embedding that binary file < 1289854568 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That could work, if you just add a label and an extern-declaration if you're going to refer to whatever you're incbin'ing. < 1289854582 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Label in the inline asm before .incbin, that is.) < 1289854605 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: doesn't split it up < 1289854661 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you need to split it up? < 1289854669 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, also. I demand that all components of Mitosis be biologically-named. < 1289854689 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: yep < 1289854691 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: no < 1289854700 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, WHY < 1289854701 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also they should all end in "osis" < 1289854708 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, no.. < 1289854816 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289854823 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ok, maybe you should just go ahead and write that parser < 1289854872 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: i have < 1289854874 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ $// < 1289854877 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: it just happens to output C < 1289854885 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523, I'm compiling a 70 meg c file with gcc < 1289854941 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, why won't you use my naming convention? < 1289854956 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHYYYYY < 1289854970 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: with or without optimisation? < 1289854974 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: -Os < 1289854983 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: note: the majority of the 70 megs is a big array of strings < 1289854990 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, OK < 1289855002 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my experience with compiling ick is that large files needed to be split up < 1289855019 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in order to avoid thrashing on occasion < 1289855051 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this was with -O2, which is much the same as -Os optimization-difficulty-wise < 1289855055 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: can't really, in this case. I should just parse it at runtime, but where's the fun in that? :) < 1289855062 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(incidentally, why does -O1 even exist? what purposes are there for using it?) < 1289855069 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, do you have -fmerge-strings on? and would it help? < 1289855070 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: btw, the non-70 megs is just a few lines of actual C < 1289855080 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: -fmerge-strings... does that merge identical substrings or something? < 1289855081 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: if there isn't a lot of code involved you could output assembly of course, might be less gruesome to compile afterwards < 1289855085 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I think so < 1289855094 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't remember if it's on by default or not < 1289855095 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it *might* help, but not immensely; also the thrashing would be insane < 1289855101 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt it's on by default < 1289855266 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, it's -fmerge-constants < 1289855271 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's on by default at -O1 and higher < 1289855278 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(including -Os) < 1289855369 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : fizzie: groan <-- why groan about srand() < 1289855372 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1289855387 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because srand() is boring < 1289855392 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i have to pass it a seed < 1289855403 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which involves using the clock or someth' < 1289855414 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :time(NULL) + getpid() /* OH NOOOOOSE */ < 1289855423 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : olsner: -rw-r--r-- 1 elliott elliott 79M Nov 15 20:44 lines.c <--- what *is* that? < 1289855426 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: ugh it's like the holocaust < 1289855435 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except specially for me < 1289855474 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: C code, 79MB of it < 1289855477 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In case there's any amateur #esoteric historians, here's a logfile I just ran across from Dec 7th 2002 to Jan 3rd, 2003; it's the one file that wasn't in that "old logs from fizzie" set in Gregor's log-repo. http://zem.fi/~fis/esoteric-2002-12-fizzie.txt < 1289855483 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, yes. But how can you get that much < 1289855493 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It's from the system I had my IRC on before I moved it to from where the Gregor repo logs start from.) < 1289855496 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you generate it, obviously < 1289855505 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, what does the file represent? < 1289855509 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the only sane way to get properly insane amounts of code < 1289855529 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: In case there's any amateur #esoteric historians, here's a logfile I just ran across from Dec 7th 2002 to Jan 3rd, 2003; it's the one file that wasn't in that "old logs from fizzie" set in Gregor's log-repo. http://zem.fi/~fis/esoteric-2002-12-fizzie.txt < 1289855546 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it represents happiness < 1289855546 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yes, I was already highlighted what with my name appearing in his message. < 1289855555 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: But it had 's after it! < 1289855558 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your client could SUCK! < 1289855599 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you are being unintentionally unhelp you know < 1289855603 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: was clog logging then? < 1289855606 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what does that code do? < 1289855610 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: clog started in 2003 < 1289855613 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: smiles < 1289855613 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I already have this log under the name "more-days.log" < 1289855618 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Oh! < 1289855627 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ..................................................................................................... < 1289855628 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I assumed those were LESS days. < 1289855643 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: The file size was so big, I didn't look at it. < 1289855650 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X-D < 1289855656 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never you mind, then. < 1289855685 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1289855709 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: not even with head(1)? < 1289855717 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something like less(1) that can load the file lazily? < 1289855724 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't have it here locally, I was just looking at his web hg thing. < 1289855764 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mind you, this file is an incredible 220K :P < 1289855775 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's large? < 1289855783 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If your browser supports gzip, it's probably 1/10th that in bandwidth. < 1289855825 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, turns out my computer budget was considerably larger than I thought. < 1289855831 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: What is it? < 1289855834 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go back to the original upper bound. < 1289855842 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: $799? < 1289855854 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1289855882 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: That's like over half a C64 floppy. < 1289855883 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I'll totally get on it as soon as I get this code working. < 1289855895 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1289855907 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strlen(foo[n]) for "char *foo[]" should work... properly, right? < 1289855913 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in not return inexplicably more... < 1289855919 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is it in fact over whole? I guess those were 170k single-sided things. < 1289855928 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I typically spend around £400 on computers < 1289855947 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$799 is IIRC a bit more than that < 1289855950 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH < 1289855951 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lawl < 1289855959 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: why are you buying computers in dollars? < 1289855969 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, that was in pounds. < 1289855983 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, £799 is quite a bit more than $799 < 1289855996 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :£799 is basically the "if you go over this, GET RID OF EVERYTHING". < 1289856014 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :personally, I'd choose to spend rather less than that < 1289856017 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :£400 is a comfortable target, really. < 1289856020 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it really depends on what you want from a computer < 1289856044 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :₤799, if it existed still, would be quite a bit less. < 1289856051 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Assuming ITL for the symbol.) < 1289856064 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, Phantom_Hoover is building his own desktop and has, inexplicably, delegated the task to me < 1289856073 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: presumably based on my prior happy customer or just my innate charm < 1289856079 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the task = component selection) < 1289856088 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so he gets what he gets and if it includes a nuclear power station, so be it < 1289856111 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1289856115 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you do "cc -Os foo.c -o foo" < 1289856118 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it know that everything is static? < 1289856155 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can stick in that -fwhole-program just in case. < 1289856177 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though one would think that it'd be smart enough to grok it's going to link it to a finished product. < 1289856182 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well, I do have a nuclear-obsessed friend. < 1289856196 0 :optbot!~optbot@91.105.107.242 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289856196 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric?C=M;O=D | interesting error < 1289856202 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(This is the same as the Japanese and aviation friends.) < 1289856223 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YESIREE < 1289856224 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THE ONE < 1289856225 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THE ONLY < 1289856235 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FORMERLY KNOWN AS "OERJAN'S TERRIBLE PUNS" < 1289856240 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND ALSO FORMERLY KNOWN AS "OTPBOT" < 1289856243 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WE PRESENT TO YOU < 1289856245 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THE GLORIOUS < 1289856247 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-- THE RECODED! -- < 1289856252 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-- THE NOT QUITE COMPLETE YET -- < 1289856254 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OPTBOT!!!!!!! < 1289856261 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :optbot, say things. < 1289856266 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOT GOOD ENOUGH < 1289856268 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ladies and gentlemen, thank you, and may we always live in an era with more than one babble bot to talk to. < 1289856275 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I haven't re-added that yet :P < 1289856280 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact fungot's babble is a knockoff of optbot's. < 1289856282 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1289856292 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot? < 1289856303 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot isn't here. < 1289856303 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUUUUUUNNNGOOOOOOOOOT! < 1289856305 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because he sucks. < 1289856341 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, do fork()'d processes share stdout? < 1289856346 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if so, can their output get mingled? I would guess yes < 1289856347 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1289856369 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really regret doing this in C... < 1289856373 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: and that's what lines.c is < 1289856378 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: everything ever said in #esoteric that clog caught. < 1289856383 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The inevitable effect of doing anything in C. < 1289856389 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: jumpin' jumpin' < 1289856394 0 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1289856403 0 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1289856410 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speaking of terrible bots... < 1289856414 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot! < 1289856414 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: i've heard srfi-27 is " sources of random content of the array. < 1289856417 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're alive! < 1289856491 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: fork()'d processes share all file descriptors, including stdin/stdout/stderr. < 1289856545 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know what? < 1289856546 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck C. < 1289856550 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm writing it in rc. < 1289856588 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, what's the simplest way to get a random number in non-bash? < 1289856604 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :File descriptors (well, assuming no FD_CLOEXEC flags) even survive over execve; irssi has that funky "re-exec() a new binary without disconnecting" thing. < 1289856748 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably depends on what you want to depend on. < 1289856785 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what aren't you writing in C? < 1289856790 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :svmg? < 1289856807 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: optbot < 1289856808 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :v2 < 1289856810 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hah < 1289856811 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :electric boogaloo < 1289856812 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, but why < 1289856817 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1289856819 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: optbot v2! < 1289856824 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I decided that parsing files was for fuckheads. < 1289856832 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note: I have since become a fuckhead. < 1289856839 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you had to parse it to turn it into C? < 1289856841 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION attempts to learn how to use AUCTeX; fails. < 1289856847 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: well yes, but that was ... easier < 1289856850 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: i forget why < 1289856854 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: it's easy < 1289856855 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Primarily due to having a poor grasp of LaTeX at best. < 1289856856 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: you type shit < 1289856859 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then you use the keys. < 1289856865 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, in minecraft: if you *do* come across ice, how do you get it in your inventory? I heard you could get water into nether this way so... < 1289856945 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, yeah, but I'm not sure what to type. < 1289856956 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: latex < 1289856970 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And here we reach the crux of the problem. < 1289857089 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, can dc output a random number? < 1289857141 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1289857147 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless it's completely undocumented < 1289857152 0 :Mathnerd314!~mathnerd3@dsl.6.28.53.206.cos.dyn.pcisys.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1289857158 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Well, you can implement a PRNG in it... < 1289857168 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what about reading /dev/urandom ? < 1289857181 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, tr to strip everything but digits < 1289857182 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or such < 1289857192 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the difference between /dev/random and /dev/urandom? < 1289857210 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the documented one. Which is that urandom will not block. < 1289857218 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to how it is implemented < 1289857367 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: /dev/random will wait until there's enough entropy to give a true-random number (although a friend of mine at University semi-reliably informs me that it overestimates how much entropy it has); /dev/urandom will substitute a cryptosecure random number if there isn't enough entropy for a true-random one, so it always returns instantly < 1289857383 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the result is that for basically anything, /dev/urandom is good enough and the one you should use < 1289857391 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does it know how much entropy it has? < 1289857431 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: in fact, even for crypto purposes, /dev/urandom is preferable < 1289857438 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know this because I READ IT! < 1289857439 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it increases it a small amount whenever it mixes in a random source < 1289857446 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I wouldn't be surprised at that < 1289857457 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, /dev/random is no worse than /dev/urandom apart from being substantially slower < 1289857484 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you have a gigantic cluster of entropy generators on your computer. < 1289857502 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say, replacing the state of Kansas with a set of Geiger counters. < 1289857545 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: that sounds like overkill < 1289857566 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup! < 1289857729 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do freenode's pings look like? < 1289857799 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, it only pings if you don't talk for a while < 1289857807 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC, though, it's PING :server < 1289857817 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where server is the name of the server you're connected to < 1289857833 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although that could have been a different ircd, it was so long since I checked that < 1289857947 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, seems loggic didn't log pings, I checked < 1289857951 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it logged everything /else/...) < 1289857998 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no biggie < 1289858118 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, TNT canons in minecraft look fun < 1289858122 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dangerous too < 1289858167 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pachelbel's canon in TNT, that does sound a bit dangerous < 1289858175 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaargh < 1289858178 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cannon* < 1289858209 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, also argh: why it is a good piece, why do people think of that every time someone days canon. There are many others. < 1289858261 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it's olde and Bach liked it. < 1289858313 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And in spite of the fact that it's an obscenely repetitive piece of garbage (even for a canon), hey, Bach liked it :P < 1289858346 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Our mere opinions pale in the face of Bach's! < 1289858355 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exactly! < 1289858517 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I don't have any idea how to actually get ice, except by trickery. < 1289858561 0 :Sasha!~WHAT@97-124-34-128.phnx.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1289858689 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As for random numbers, you can take them out of awk, with something like awk 'BEGIN{print int(16*rand());}' < /dev/null for an integer in the [0, 15] range. I'm sure there's something simpler too, and I haven't checked if that works for plain-POSIX awk. < 1289858728 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or the random devices, of course.) < 1289858760 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: rand()*BIG isn't very well-distributed though. < 1289858874 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"od -An -N3 -i /dev/urandom" gives you a decimal integer in the range [0, 2^24-1], with some whitespace in front; no messing around with uglily filtering only digits out of the random bytes. < 1289858898 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm < 1289858921 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"od -An -N4 -tu4 /dev/urandom" will give one in [0, 2^32-1]. < 1289858970 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Now get me one in [0, 1728038] :P < 1289858979 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish dc just had a random instruction. < 1289858983 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just take the modulo, it's well-enough distributed. < 1289859001 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume you have something that can compute. :p < 1289859129 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What *is* the difference between TeX and LaTeX? < 1289859133 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :echo `od -An -N8 -tu8 /dev/urandom` 1728038%p | dc < 1289859140 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That seems like reasonably workingy thing. < 1289859143 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TOPIC #esoteric :156 :is :unimplemented :145 :is :unimplemented :1263442 :save:args :165 :is :unimplemented :156 :is :unimplemented :stack :empty :155 :is :unimplemented :empty :stack :155 :is :unimplemented :145 :is :unimplemented :156 :is :unimplemented :164 :is :unimplemented :145 :is :unimplemented :165 :is :unimplemented :156 :is :unimplemented :155 :is :unimplemented :empty :stack :155 :is :unimplemented :145 :is :unimplemented :156 :is :un < 1289859143 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :implemented :164 :is :unimplemented :145 :is :unimplemented :3 < 1289859145 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except +1 since you wanted that range. < 1289859164 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Actually not +1 there. < 1289859181 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, so you want [0, 1728038) then. < 1289859182 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: LaTeX is a macro package on top of TeX. TeX itself is very imperative and layout-concerned. LaTeX is more semantic. < 1289859191 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Yeah. Or something. < 1289859230 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :; n=`{echo `{od -An -N8 -tu8 /dev/urandom} $linecount % p | dc} < 1289859231 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :; echo $n < 1289859231 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stack empty 8846169905319014834 < 1289859232 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1289859261 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds like an empty $linecount there, but who knows. < 1289859282 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, indeed. < 1289859285 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :; n=`{echo `{od -An -N8 -tu8 /dev/urandom} $linecount'%p' | dc} < 1289859285 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :; echo $n < 1289859285 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :543812 156 is unimplemented 145 is unimplemented 543812 < 1289859286 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1289859295 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :; echo `{od -An -N8 -tu8 /dev/urandom} $linecount'%p' < 1289859295 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1867614512691035130 1728038%p lines%p < 1289859296 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahhhh. < 1289859338 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: sed $n'p;'$x'q;d' Thank you for your OpenBSD Order! In case of problems or questions about this order, please contact austin@openbsd.org Order number 2010/11/15-10:40:25-20640: Your order currently is: USD $20.00 [DON] DONATION to the OpenBSD Project Total: USD $20.00 + Shipping. < 1289860125 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since when did donations charge shipping? < 1289860161 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-93-15.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1289860208 0 :MigoMipo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Quit < 1289860223 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are still 336 $10,000 bills in circulation. :D < 1289860248 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, at least as far as the US Treasury knows) < 1289860363 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt people would exactly circulate a $10,000 bill < 1289860405 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, yes, you'd sell it at auction instead. < 1289860415 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still legal tender. < 1289860439 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"legal tender" has a very specific meaning < 1289860441 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: The paypal donation link at openbsd.org/donations.html has "&no_shipping=1" in the URL; their own custom order system (which is primarly meant if you want to combine a donation and a regular order of openbsd fluff) probably just can't handle such fanciness. < 1289860450 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it turns out, for instance, that Scottish currency is not legal tender in Scotland < 1289860469 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no legal tender in Scotland. < 1289860477 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: indeed < 1289860490 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I thought it would be something like that, but it's still hilarious < 1289860494 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the US, federal reserve notes are legal tender, even if they *were* issued over a century ago. < 1289860507 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(legal tender is something that you have to accept to settle a debt, if it's of the right value) < 1289860535 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I know. $10,000 bills are legal tender.) < 1289860547 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and worth more than face value besides) < 1289860621 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: in the UK, the Royal Mint let people pre-order £5 coins nowadays, on the basis that they nearly always end up being worth more than face value < 1289860637 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Wow. < 1289860639 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they make a profit on them too, on the basis that the materials for them cost less than £5 and they basically never end up in general circulation < 1289860646 0 :gm|lap!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1289860649 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus it doesn't screw up inflation or anything like that < 1289860676 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are £5 coins just commemorative releases or something? < 1289860678 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1289860696 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(presumably, they aren't legally allowed to sell them for any value other than £5) < 1289860806 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Closest the US has to that is the series of bullion coins. < 1289860839 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which are worth significantly more than their face value as raw materials alone. < 1289860840 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, have I previously professed my utter bafflement at MathML? < 1289860899 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance, the American Buffalo coin has a face value of $50. And is about $1510 worth of gold. < 1289860905 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1289860946 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Yes. < 1289860969 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think they're actually legal tender though, in spite of being made by the US Mint. < 1289860997 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (legal tender is something that you have to accept to settle a debt, if it's of the right value) < 1289860999 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: you'd be insane to /not/ accept one to settle a $50 debt... < 1289861011 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope, they are *actually* legal tender for their face value. < 1289861011 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: please tell me that this means in Scotland, you could refuse to accept Scottish money to settle a debt < 1289861017 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yes. < 1289861026 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: indefinitely? < 1289861039 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Okay, sir, I have your money!" "Bugger off." "But I want to clear my d-" *slam* < 1289861042 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: presumably, you wouldn't be able to actually /claim/ on the debt if you'd repeatedly rebuffed attempts to pay you < 1289861050 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the courts tend to look down on that sort of thing < 1289861057 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Not common law. ;) < 1289861146 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from #plan9 < 1289861147 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 01:29:18] 9965 GNU, an asteroid named after the GNU Project < 1289861147 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : [01:29:53] I hope that's the one that hits earth and extinguishes all life < 1289861147 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : [01:30:03] the last words on my dying lips will be "I told you so" < 1289861179 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's an asteroid named after GNU? < 1289861191 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9965_GNU < 1289861194 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9965 GNU is a C-type main belt asteroid. It orbits the Sun once every 3.76 years.[2] < 1289861194 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Discovered on March 5, 1992 by Spacewatch, it was given the provisional designation "1992 EF2". It was later renamed "GNU" after the GNU project, whose software is important to academic computing.[3] < 1289861198 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other free-software-related asteroid names: < 1289861198 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * 9885 Linux < 1289861198 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * 9793 Torvalds < 1289861198 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * 9882 Stallman < 1289861216 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: there's so many asteroids that they practically give away the names for free :) < 1289861297 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, indeed < 1289861302 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they must be rather short of inspiration < 1289861309 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there an asteroid called Microsoft? < 1289861312 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's hope not < 1289861332 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: there are two pest insects named after Bush and Cheney IIRC, but it was meant as a homage :( < 1289861346 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(species, that is) < 1289861395 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: four were named at the same time, three after prominent Republicans, and one after Darth Vader < 1289861408 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: heh < 1289861414 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I know the Bush/Cheney ones were confirmed to be a homage, though < 1289861421 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, that's what they said < 1289861432 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they could be lying for obvious reasons < 1289861455 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1289861548 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1289861597 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are quite a few dinosaur species up there, too; though I guess that's a sensible name for a big thing. < 1289861681 0 :cheater99!~cheater@g229028252.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1289861728 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then there's that whole set of consecutively 9617 Grahamchapman, 9618 Johncleese, 9619 Terrygilliam, 9620 Ericidle, 9621 Michaelpalin and 9622 Terryjones. < 1289861795 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1289861804 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spacewatch has also discovered and named the 9548 Fortran; maybe we should petition for Brainfuck or Befunge or something next? < 1289861842 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brainfuck would be a great asteroid name < 1289861872 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ... yes. < 1289861989 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Oracle appear to be spamming everyone who has ever given their email to Sun < 1289861991 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Dear Customer, < 1289861991 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oracle University UK would like to extend a warm welcome to you! < 1289861991 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We are doing our very best to ensure the transition from Sun Learning Services to Oracle University goes as smoothly as possible. In order to facilitate this transition we would like to provide you with some basic information to help you.]] < 1289861998 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least, me :) < 1289862011 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and Knuth has his own rock too (21656 Knuth). < 1289862017 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Oracle University UK"? < 1289862047 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the Java API is now on oracle.com rather than sun.com (although they've put redirects in for every page, fortunately) < 1289862058 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it felt so strange linking there for my students < 1289862100 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "Oracle University UK"? < 1289862105 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some Oracle docs site or something < 1289862127 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what a pretentious name < 1289862226 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it is /Oracle/ < 1289862440 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Donate to stop
the blinking!
--openssh.com < 1289862466 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ... no way ... < 1289862472 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Yes way. < 1289862485 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zomg, there it is. < 1289862490 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll bet it's bad at tracking that :P < 1289862571 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: they probably link you to a member's only copy of the site without that :P < 1289862580 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmmmmmmmmm < 1289862582 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1289862589 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: < 1289862590 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:40:04 AnMaster: pirate it. < 1289862590 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:40:11 tusho, I don't do that... < 1289862590 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:40:35 I don't break the law like that < 1289862593 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: HOW FAR YOU HAVE SUNK < 1289862610 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://openssh.com/?donated=yes -- aww, it didn't stop the blinking. :/ < 1289862621 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe admin=yes, then... < 1289862623 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Or maybe you get an account on openssh.com, and you have to use ssh to set up ssh forwarding so that http://localhost:8080/ points to the site (only served on openssh.com's localhost) without the blinking. < 1289862626 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Dogfooding! < 1289862672 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X-D < 1289862700 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Or maybe donating gets you the instructions "Access the blink-less site with: $ lynx openssh.com" < 1289862703 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Is lynx GPL?) < 1289862736 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it was. < 1289862770 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Google's excerpt from the Wikipedia article on Lynx says yes < 1289862776 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the article itself doesn't, though < 1289862787 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: heh < 1289862809 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It says to me, in the infobox. < 1289862855 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :citation is to http://lynx.isc.org/lynx2.8.7/lynx2-8-7/COPYHEADER < 1289862862 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[e]links[ 2] is better :P < 1289862865 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: ah; still, the infobox has different wording from the Google quote < 1289862870 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I like w3m < 1289862899 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: There seems to be no current links that supports JS, and neither does w3m (although w3m has images by some bizarre magic) < 1289862932 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think we took a look at how w3m (was it w3m?) does images; it was pretty bizarre indeed. < 1289862938 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: it makes images into links that spawn an external image viewer, IIRC < 1289862959 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yeah, but how does it know where to put them? < 1289862969 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Even if you're using e.g. konsole, it draws the image at the right place. < 1289862985 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: There was a really kludgy heuristic for the offsets. < 1289862988 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I never noticed it was putting them in the right places < 1289862993 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Yowza. < 1289863050 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Uh, I'm pretty sure Elinks supports Javascript. < 1289863060 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I *know* it depends on SpiderMonkey. < 1289863064 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't be sure it was exactly w3m; but we did take a look at one text-mode browser that magicked images on top of console sort-of in the right places. < 1289863076 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: It doesn't work with recent SpiderMonkey. < 1289863080 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: That's w3m. < 1289863082 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Aaaw. < 1289863101 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: And Links 2, which had its own interpreter, has it all commented out now X-D < 1289863128 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: "it recognizes the text part of the terminal window by looking for a child window that has a width and height of at least 0.7 times the actual window; and then it does: if (attr.x <= 0 && attr.width < 30 && attr.height > wop->height * 0.7) /* scrollbar of xterm/kterm ? */ wop->offset_x += attr.x + attr.width + attr.border_width * 2;" < 1289863150 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: do you use w3m as a pager too? < 1289863150 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Holy fuuuuuuuuuuuck X-D < 1289863152 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's meant to be :-P < 1289863158 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: no, I generally use less < 1289863160 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Vorpal said it breaks in his terminal. < 1289863163 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Gregor: "it recognizes the text part of the terminal window by looking for a child window that has a width and height of at least 0.7 times the actual window; and then it does: if (attr.x <= 0 && attr.width < 30 && attr.height > wop->height * 0.7) /* scrollbar of xterm/kterm ? */ wop->offset_x += attr.x + attr.width + attr.border_width * 2;" < 1289863166 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A W E S O M E < 1289863181 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: The most horrifying thing is that it works. < 1289863182 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: w3m can't load non-regular files, alas < 1289863355 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1289863357 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. < 1289863369 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, normally tunes.org logs open just fine as plaintext, but the day for that w3m discussion -- http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/10.05.02 -- has a lot of \x0f's from myndzi near the top, so at least my browser wants to save it since it's obviously a binary file. (Even though it still comes with content-type: text/plain.) < 1289863377 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :w3m is short for "WWW wo miru" (WWWを見る). < 1289863386 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did not realise. < 1289863414 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: That happens to me, too. < 1289863432 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I don't follow where the "3" came from for that. < 1289863433 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another tidbit of magic: "It also finds the terminal window by looking what window has the input focus." < 1289863434 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: botte, of course, will have nicely-formatted clog logs. Also your logs. Also anyone else's logs I can merge in. Also botte's own logs. < 1289863437 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Phantom_Hoover: A Lisp-Smalltalk hybrid? (Note: Smalltalk is a good language despite Sgeo.) < 1289863446 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I CAN'T HEAR YOU < 1289863448 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I CAN'T HEAR YOU < 1289863449 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I CAN'T HEAR YOU < 1289863451 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: w3 = www < 1289863452 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The way you talk about it, you'd think that I was more than a fan < 1289863458 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: So where did the "wo" go? < 1289863463 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Disappeared. < 1289863469 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Just like you drop "of" and the like in English abbreviations. < 1289863476 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :First, it's a grammatical particle, so nobody cares. < 1289863484 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm, I was trying to interpret it like i18n X-P < 1289863486 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Related pages < 1289863486 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * Sakamoto Hironori's Homepage < 1289863486 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : The best contributer's page. < 1289863488 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--w3m.sf.net < 1289863496 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All the other contributors suck. < 1289863506 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That somehow Phantom_Hoover might think that my liking a language automatically means it's bad < 1289863511 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"W3m has many siblings/friends." < 1289863520 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I thought we were just friends, but then she became my sister. < 1289863554 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: What's scarier is when you run something in an xterm and it somehow has images: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/W3m-wikipedia.png < 1289863557 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HOWWWW < 1289863567 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ... that's what we were talking about like five minutes ago. < 1289863573 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Second, it's Hepburn-romanised as "o", anyways. < 1289863573 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Third, it can be considered a suffix, rather than a seperate word. < 1289863573 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's a fairly arbitrary designation, though) < 1289863580 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I thought we were just talking about where it knew to start the image viewer. < 1289863590 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :External, that is. < 1289863593 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that made no sense to me either. < 1289863612 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :God damn cable getting unplugged. < 1289863620 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It puts the window-frame-free image viewer at the correct location for the terminal emulator and screen. < 1289863631 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: ...and then moves it around? < 1289863636 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup < 1289863644 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: That is the best worst thing ever X-D < 1289863649 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1289863657 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: It'd be better with xterm's Tektronix emulation. < 1289863661 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That can embed graphs, at least. < 1289863707 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if it can do the same on vt1 with fbdev :) < 1289863711 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: If my memory is correct, it does actually draw the image by itself, instead of using a separate program for that; and the code was too messy for me to tell whether it just acquired somehow a graphics context to the terminal window (which is what it *looked* like it was doing) or just did the more reasonable (well, relatively speaking) thing of opening a popup-styled window and put it in the right place. < 1289863730 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: "There's similar code for linux framebuffer, to draw directly into it. I think elinks or links2 or something supported the framebuffer like that too." < 1289863738 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSs < 1289863739 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, we covered everything you might wonder. < 1289863760 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: links2 just draws everything with the framebuffer, w3m uses normal text mode for everything but graphics, making w3m far more magical :P < 1289863769 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Please tell me it supports using libcaca when you just have bytes and that's it. < 1289863780 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Elinks and links2 can just do graphical rendering. < 1289863784 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: God I hope so. < 1289863795 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Uhhh, elinks can't do graphics. < 1289863797 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :libcaca == aa-like thing? < 1289863798 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, w3m has a man replacement. < 1289863800 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(w3mman) < 1289863802 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder why. < 1289863828 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OMG < 1289863830 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Headers are links to the header file < 1289863834 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Nor can it do JS right now *sobblecopter* < 1289863836 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Manpages are links to the pages < 1289863843 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :w3mman is the BEST THING EVER except it doesn't scroll nicely < 1289863845 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Argh, so it can't. < 1289863855 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Please record the noise of a sobblecopter. < 1289863858 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure about libcaca; I've used it as an external image-viewer for something, but I'm not sure it can use it to draw on page. < 1289863869 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I was looking into this just recently to see if I could add *links* to http://js.codu.org/ :P < 1289863886 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WTF Reddit is hallucinating on me < 1289863900 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you enable images in w3m ;_; < 1289863905 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have it enabled in the options < 1289863914 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Requires a "plugin" or something, w3m-img or whatever it's called. < 1289863929 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had a phantom orangered < 1289863976 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Already installed bitch < 1289863982 0 :Hiant!~Person@pool-71-255-199-126.bltmmd.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1289863985 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Then Idonno :) < 1289864007 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lawl it wants a w3mimgdispaly command which ivn't got < 1289864018 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you list files in a package again < 1289864032 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dpkg-query -L < 1289864069 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/lib/w3m/w3mimgdisplay < 1289864073 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fucking debian shoving shit into /usr/lib < 1289864095 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, should be /usr/libexec < 1289864103 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: should be /usr/bin :p < 1289864117 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/libexec forevars < 1289864132 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Maximum processes for parallel image loading" < 1289864135 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is this a setting :D < 1289864148 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Holy shit < 1289864164 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: It... raped my terminal. < 1289864170 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8-D < 1289864171 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: http://i.imgur.com/q0dDC.png < 1289864179 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Anyway, http://p.zem.fi/x11-w3mimg.c (see w3mimg_x11open at the bottom) and then http://p.zem.fi/w3mimgdisplay.c what it uses to keep the image synced. < 1289864184 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1289864188 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Gahaha, minimise and unminimise and it disappears until you scroll or something. < 1289864194 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Oh wow, it goes over my menu bar. < 1289864205 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is the least reliable thing EVER < 1289864218 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Dear god, if you uncomment out the JS it could do websplat. < 1289864224 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: HORRIBLY < 1289864244 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Minus its obscene lack of necessary features ... < 1289864248 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Hey, there *is* a rather comprehensive survey of how different terminals arrange their subwindows in x11_w3mimg.c. < 1289864257 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: It has images, it has JavaScript. What more do you need? < 1289864264 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Actual DOM features. < 1289864266 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Who implemented this and where do I send hugs X-D < 1289864273 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Fiine, just port V8 to it. < 1289864276 0 :Wamanuz!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1289864279 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: v8 != DOM < 1289864293 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Just port Chrome to w3m < 1289864306 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Should I make that sentence more ridiculous? :P < 1289864310 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yes. < 1289864322 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Just port Linux to w3m, problem solved < 1289864329 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO WAIT < 1289864331 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Just port X11 to w3m, problem solved < 1289864356 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Probably the most "feasible" system would be to run a graphical browser headless and "serialize" its DOM to a textual view. < 1289864370 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, Linus uses Chrome. < 1289864374 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : prompt$ LD_PRELOAD mymemcpy.so /opt/google/chrome/google-chrome & < 1289864380 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-- https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=638477#c38 < 1289864385 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: <3 < 1289864392 0 :Hiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539] < 1289864408 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"(and I tested the Daughtry thing too, although I am not convinced it < 1289864408 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds all that much better without the sound corruption)" < 1289864506 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Anyway, the code is too messy for me to actually figure out, but it really *looks* as if it were just acquiring a graphics context to the terminal window and drawing directly on top of that, but I guess it still does the reasonable (well, relatively) thing of creating a frameless popup window on top. < 1289864510 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It's just that it does XCreateGC(xi->display, xi->window, ..) and earlier xi->window has been initialized with XGetInputFocus; it really doesn't seem to actually *create* a window anywhere.) < 1289864530 0 :Wamanuz5!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1289864597 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a) The cat must vacate my room < 1289864597 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Well, XGetInputFocus and then some walking of the window tree to get to the actual text container in some cases.) < 1289864607 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :b) This applies to all rules where the cat is present in my room < 1289864612 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c) The cat must vacate its bowels < 1289864684 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EVIL ARCHAEOLOGY < 1289864688 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of source code < 1289864695 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :practised by... evil programmer indiana jones < 1289865088 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Looks like Google's spriting bit you. < 1289865104 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yes. I am radioactive now! < 1289865128 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: They use a single image containing all the images on their page and use CSS to display the relevant portions. < 1289865182 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I'm also Spider-Man. < 1289865219 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Woots. < 1289865275 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Argh, yes, that kills WebSplat too >: ( < 1289865283 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, not kills, but makes wonky. < 1289865329 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean, WebSplat doesn't include its own ... actually, I have only a vague idea of what I wanted to say. < 1289865332 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: swatted to death