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00:27:52 <pikhq> And Mormonism is Abrahamic American Exceptionalism, the religion.
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00:36:37 <elliott> pikhq: that has good meter
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01:18:59 <Sgeo> So, function that is 1 on all rational numbers, 0 on irrational numbers
01:19:10 <Sgeo> I think there's a name for some function along those lines
01:19:35 * Sgeo googles for weird mathematical functions
01:20:24 <Sgeo> http://www.domesatreview.com/weird-functions fuck you, study guide
01:20:29 <Sgeo> That's not what I need
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01:53:11 <Sgeo> Anyone want to fix the mindfuck that is" The first three of these characterizations can be proved equivalent in ZermeloFraenkel set theory without the axiom of choice, but the equivalence of the third and fourth cannot be proved without additional choice principles."
01:53:23 <Sgeo> On http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncountably_infinite
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02:15:18 <Sgeo> The wiki page on ZFC keeps talking about the background logic
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02:36:44 <Sgeo> Do axiom schemata specify a _countably_ infinite number of axioms?
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02:43:29 * Sgeo fantasizes about proving ZF from within ZF
02:45:59 <Sgeo> Wait, the Godel sentence is not just an abstraction?
02:46:08 <Sgeo> If I google for ZF's Godel sentence, I will find it?
03:22:49 * pikhq kinda wishes that Apple kept Classic working on Intel Macs
03:23:33 * Sgeo decides to relearn Scala
03:23:54 <Sgeo> I think the biggest thing that scared me about Scala is the idea of learning Java libraries
03:23:56 <pikhq> Thereby never once breaking ABI.
03:24:14 <Sgeo> Oh, and I was learning it in the context of Android iirc
03:25:44 <Sgeo> elliott would correctly assume I'm demented if I mentioned the reason I'm thinking about Scala right now
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04:19:31 <Gregor> !c printf("Does this still work?")
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04:29:43 <Chapati> oh this is a programming chan?
04:29:50 <Chapati> was hoping for something more cultish
04:33:51 -!- Gregor has set topic: Welcome to #esoteric, the international hub for the occult, voodoo, crystal healing, esoteric topics in computation and programming languages, magick, astrology and spiritual projection | Praise be unto the enlightened one, Zenduul, who currently possesses the mind and being of ais523 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
04:34:20 <Gregor> People get pissed when I do that, what with it being completely unrelated to the actual topic of the channel :P
04:34:23 <Sgeo> I'm sure to many people, computers seem like magic
04:34:57 <pikhq> Sgeo: *neko neko chibi mahō
04:34:59 <Sgeo> Chapati, Chapa'ai?
04:35:48 <Sgeo> Sorry, I just said the only bit of goa'uld that I know
04:36:06 <Chapati> i just said something I just made up
04:36:07 <pikhq> Sgeo: That's one of like 5 phrases that exists, so you're good.
04:37:22 <Sgeo> Should I avoid Clojure like the plague?
04:37:40 <Sgeo> OTOH, the stuff about STM seems tempting
04:47:01 <pikhq> If you want STM use Haskell.
04:47:46 <Gregor> Or any other pure, functional language ;)
04:48:34 <pikhq> Gregor: So, Haskell.
04:49:02 <pikhq> Hooray, legitimate killer features. :P
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05:05:31 <Sgeo> What's Clojure's STM like/
05:08:42 <Gregor> I'm sure it's as good as an STM can be in an impure imperative language, which is to say really terrible unless you're very, very careful.
05:09:46 <pikhq> Though it certainly works better in a relatively modern impure imperative language, such as Clojure, than it would in, say, C++.
05:09:55 <pikhq> (I have heard mention of such a thing. It frightens me.)
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05:12:01 <pikhq> It appears Closure has the one (huge) restriction that your STM values must be immutable.
05:12:28 <pikhq> No, there's another.
05:12:35 <pikhq> No side effects in a transaction.
05:12:54 <Gregor> I mean, not that much lawl, since that just means that the authors new the realistic limitations of STM and didn't think it was magic *shrugs*
05:13:22 <pikhq> So: code in Haskell, without the compiler telling you when you fuck it up.
05:13:44 <pikhq> AKA the best possible implementation of STM without purity and strong typing.
05:18:38 <Sgeo> Shall I stick with Scala?
05:19:00 <pikhq> You shall not use any language but Haskell!
05:19:18 <Gregor> You shall not use any language but C!
05:19:39 <Sgeo> You shall not use any language but Falctorn!
05:20:44 <pikhq> You shall not use any language but the untyped lambda calculus!
05:20:48 <pikhq> Evaluated by Church!
05:23:47 <Gregor> You shall not use any language but Turing Machine descriptions!
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05:24:27 <pikhq> You shall not use any language!
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06:21:45 <Sgeo> The thing that keeps getting me about Scala is its statically-checkable duck-typing
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06:50:45 <coppro> http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive/phd091606s.gif
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08:37:42 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: HOW FAR YOU HAVE SUNK <-- quite a bit it seems
08:38:50 <Vorpal> <fizzie> I think Vorpal said it breaks in his terminal. <-- yes, it displays stuff on top of the menu of my terminal and such
08:38:56 <Vorpal> also places it in the wrong position
08:58:32 <fizzie> I've re-looked at the code, and it really looks as if it just draws directly into the terminal window, not into a frameless pop-up thing on top. I didn't know you could XCreateGC someone else's window like that.
09:12:21 <fizzie> Creates a drawing context for a window.
09:12:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, the security implications of that are scary
09:12:53 <Vorpal> what if some app did that to gtksu or such
09:14:47 <fizzie> Well, you could still probably fake it with the frameless popup window thing if it were disabled.
09:16:16 <fizzie> In any case there is no security as soon as you can connect to the X server: it'll let you keylog and generate input events and whatnot, anyway. Still, painting all over someone else's window like that sounds so impolite. It's like spray-painting someone's wall or something.
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09:31:34 <Vorpal> idea: panoramic comic. "no fourth wall" takes on a new meaning then
09:36:07 <fizzie> Sounds interesting; maybe you should do a sqrt(-garfield) with that concept.
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14:52:00 <elliott> 17:53:11 <Sgeo> Anyone want to fix the mindfuck that is" The first three of these characterizations can be proved equivalent in Zermelo–Fraenkel set theory without the axiom of choice, but the equivalence of the third and fourth cannot be proved without additional choice principles."
14:52:10 <elliott> 18:43:29 * Sgeo fantasizes about proving ZF from within ZF
14:52:15 <elliott> congrats, you can hit no lower point.
14:52:22 <elliott> 18:46:08 <Sgeo> If I google for ZF's Godel sentence, I will find it?
14:52:34 <elliott> You can generate it at least for constructive logics but it's way too big to print out.
14:52:40 <elliott> Maybe if you borrowed the LHC's disk.
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14:54:46 <elliott> 01:16:16 <fizzie> In any case there is no security as soon as you can connect to the X server: it'll let you keylog and generate input events and whatnot, anyway. Still, painting all over someone else's window like that sounds so impolite. It's like spray-painting someone's wall or something.
14:54:50 <elliott> Yeah, X is terribly insecure.
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15:24:12 <elliott> http://turton.co.za/chordingKeyboard/chordingKeyboard.html (http://trevors-trinkets.blogspot.com/2007/07/five-finger-keyboards.html)
15:29:16 <Ilari> There's untrusted mode (unusable: breaks just about every app) and there is XACE... Oh and of course SE-X (or what it is called nowadays...)
15:30:31 <elliott> Ilari: SELinux is too crazy to get near any box I run...
15:30:45 <elliott> Ilari: I'm all for capability-based security, but gluing it onto Linux is just... no.
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15:56:16 <elliott> http://distractionware.com/blog/?p=193 1x5 font
15:57:14 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/RY75R.png middle one may be easier to read
15:57:31 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/wslXu.jpg
16:00:48 <elliott> pikhq: Hey, you know that Sita Sings the Blues thing? The creator is one of them VHEMT people X-D
16:01:00 <elliott> (My internet is such an echo chamber, I keep reading about the exact same things.)
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16:18:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Can I just say that mmap() is a wonderful thing?
16:19:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's like orthogonal persistence except lame!
16:19:29 <elliott> Which is high praise for Unix.
16:19:33 <elliott> And hey, look, GHC 7.0.1 is out.
16:19:58 <elliott> GHC now defaults to the Haskell 2010 language standard
16:19:59 <elliott> On POSIX platforms, there is a new I/O manager based on epoll/kqueue/poll, which allows multithreaded I/O code to scale to a much larger number (100k+) of threads
16:20:03 <elliott> GHC now includes an LLVM code generator which, for certain code, can bring some nice performance improvements
16:20:05 <elliott> The type checker has been overhauled, which means it is now able to correctly handle interactions between the type systemextensions
16:21:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Not really.
16:21:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Be aware that compiling GHC takes 2, 4, 6 hours depending on the phase of the moon.
16:21:58 <elliott> It is probably not 6, they've redone the build system.
16:22:01 <elliott> But still, it's no quickie.
16:22:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, and you'd have to do the fun jig which is "keep the apt package, compile, uninstall it, install the new one".
16:22:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: When compiling GHC I tend to wipe everything, get a 6.8.2 binary, don't install it, and just point the new GHC to the path it's at for compilation purposes.
16:22:59 <elliott> Of course, it may be better with the new build system...
16:30:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Huh -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISLISP
16:30:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ISO-standard Lisp X-D
16:30:20 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Sounds interesting; maybe you should do a sqrt(-garfield) with that concept. <-- yeah, perhaps. Too lazy though.
16:30:51 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> idea: panoramic comic. "no fourth wall" takes on a new meaning then
16:31:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw I was making a sphere pano in mindcraft. damn clouds moving so fast
16:32:07 <Vorpal> while I did have parallax I chose my position so it was all far away
16:32:18 <Vorpal> not done yet. 10 images still to add control points to
16:32:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, also didn't you say FOV was like 70°?
16:33:22 <elliott> Vorpal: I am rebellious! I name C macros lowercase names! Mwahahaha!
16:33:30 <Vorpal> elliott, ITYM: ncurses
16:33:46 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, no, ncurses does it hideously. I name macros that do actually crazy things uppercase.
16:33:58 <elliott> Vorpal: But macros that *could* be implemented as functions, I just don't see the point naming uppercase things.
16:34:12 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean like #define clear() ... ?
16:34:20 <Vorpal> iirc ncurses does something like that
16:34:33 <elliott> Vorpal: As well as things like "#define writes(fd, s) write(fd, s, sizeof(s)-1)" where the only reason you can't do it as a function is because C sucks and is clueless about ararys.
16:34:51 <elliott> (Where s is a string literal.)
16:35:13 <Vorpal> elliott, why are you using C strings?
16:35:38 <Vorpal> elliott, it is perfectly possible to use saner representations in C. A bit tricky to make string constants into that of course
16:35:40 <elliott> Vorpal: Because writes(1, "Hello, world!\n"); is simpler than writes(1, STR("Hello, world!\n")) :-)
16:35:51 <elliott> Vorpal: (And I don't have to reimplement the libc, much as I would like to.)
16:36:01 <elliott> (reimplement -- as in string.h and the like)
16:36:20 <Vorpal> elliott, you could turn string constants into... Hm... Use a preprocessor to do it automatically :D
16:36:40 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, gcc substitutes \p for the length of the rest of the string if it comes first.
16:36:50 <elliott> Vorpal: At that point I stop using C and give up on the project by trying to figure out what language to wr--
16:37:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, interesting extension...
16:37:22 <Vorpal> must be some pascal compat
16:37:28 <elliott> Vorpal: \p for pascal presumably
16:37:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Let me guess, \P does it as two bytes instead.
16:38:17 <elliott> #define smallint(x) (((x)<<1)|1)
16:38:22 <elliott> Wonder whether |1 is "faster" than +1. :-)
16:38:26 <Vorpal> it should be if you strings are
16:38:55 <Vorpal> elliott, smallint? I don't get the name here
16:39:22 <elliott> Vorpal: pointer ends in 0 due to byte alignment. 63-bit integers can be stored in a 64-bit pointer by setting the least significant bit.
16:39:31 <elliott> Vorpal: Everything larger is a bignum and thus a pointer.
16:39:52 <Vorpal> elliott, that doesn't work if you are indexing into a string or such. Then pointers can be odd
16:39:57 <Vorpal> and not sure about string constants
16:40:16 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, I don't use C strings. ;-
16:40:38 <elliott> Vorpal: Strings are either going to be symbols or cons cells of integers or something silly like that.
16:40:43 <Vorpal> anyway or would on hw level be faster due to lack of need to carry anything
16:41:13 <Vorpal> that assumes you don't expand the function add
16:41:32 <Vorpal> as in, making a big Kaurnaugh diagram for the adder. :D
16:43:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No. Heavens that I should do something so practical.
16:46:19 <elliott> http://code.google.com/speed/webp/
16:46:42 <elliott> In which Google decide to try and compete with JPEG, in what can only be either insanity or genius, but definitely ultimate egoism.
16:49:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: v53.7996 in the optimized .pto. I play in an approximately 960x1200 window, though, which is a bit... vertical.
16:49:45 <Gregor> elliott: http://gmailblog.blogspot.com/2008/10/new-in-labs-stop-sending-mail-you-later.html <-- in which Google decides to try to compete with beer.
16:49:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, must be a strange experience
16:50:07 <elliott> Vorpal: That thing talking about tiny text in the opening screen -- what resolution did it say?
16:50:22 <Vorpal> elliott, hm it said 1080p
16:50:23 <elliott> Vorpal: Whichever it says, that's the official resolution and all FOVs should be measured with that :-)
16:50:50 <elliott> Vorpal: 960x540 would work, as it's exactly half of 1080p and is more likely to actually fit on your display.
16:50:53 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway that doesn't make sense.
16:50:57 <elliott> It may be the default resolution, for all I know.
16:51:06 <Vorpal> elliott, FOV depends on what you actually used to take the screenshot
16:51:17 <Vorpal> which is what matters when stitching the pano
16:51:18 <Gregor> OK, seriously, I know I post old things sometimes WHEN THEY ARE RELEVANT, but "Gregor: Old" is a nonsense response X_X
16:51:54 <Vorpal> isn't he less than 30?
16:51:56 * Gregor shakes his cane at elliott
16:51:59 <Vorpal> 30 is the point where you get old
16:52:13 <elliott> <Ten-year-old Vorpal> You're 20? Wow, you're OLD.
16:52:16 <Vorpal> (that will be revised when I become 27 or so)
16:52:32 <elliott> <Baby Vorpal> Goo goo ga ga [translation: 10 years old? Holy fucking shit! You'll be kicking the bucket soon, nigga.]
16:52:50 <elliott> (All babies talk like this.)
16:54:03 <elliott> <Vorpal T minus ten years> [REDACTED]
16:54:06 <Gregor> Y'know, my original plan was to make sure I had my PhD by 30, but that's waaaay too simple. Instead I should aim to have tenure by 30.
16:54:24 <elliott> Ph.D. by 30, Gregor is so ambitious
16:54:33 <elliott> Tenure is the most awesomely fucked thing ever.
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16:56:11 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I can find mention of -fpascal-strings (disabled by default) and the \p escapes only in the OS X Developer Tools documentation for gcc-4.0.1; it's not in e.g. the official gcc-4.0.4 manual. Are you sure that's not another screwy Apple thing again?
16:56:30 <fizzie> The documentation for it in the Apple place also says "Pascal-style literals are useful for calling external routines that expect Pascal strings as arguments, as is true with some Apple MacOS Toolbox calls. "
16:58:23 <elliott> Hahaha, I just had the stupidest idea.
16:58:35 <elliott> Say "is a symbol" is worked out by (tag&1).
16:58:43 <elliott> Say "is a cons" is (tag&2).
16:58:48 <elliott> Then nil's tag is 3, and it's both.
17:10:02 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
17:10:12 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
17:11:29 <Vorpal> elliott, idea: chess with hitpoints and rolling of d10s
17:12:07 <Vorpal> elliott, it is an interesting idea, no?
17:12:44 <elliott> Vorpal: Tell me I'm evil for packing strings into words.
17:13:26 <Vorpal> elliott, I got this idea after hearing about a rpg/minesweeper mix. The numbers showing total levels of monsters next to the square instead. And you had to level up to beat higher level monsters. By beating quite a few level 1 ones first. And so on
17:13:37 <Vorpal> someone mentioned a flash game like that today.
17:13:45 <Vorpal> haven't played it myself. Sounded fun though
17:14:23 <elliott> Vorpal: wow, multi-char char constants work in gcc
17:14:34 <Vorpal> so I started thinking about interesting mixes. And since we had just had a lecture discussing search tree for game solving algorithms (using chess as an example) it was the natural one to start with
17:14:35 <elliott> don't know if they get endianness right though
17:14:55 <Vorpal> elliott, aren't they for multibyte?
17:15:06 <elliott> Vorpal: probably. I'm trying to pack a string "nasm style"
17:15:13 <Vorpal> elliott, and how does it do it?
17:15:31 <elliott> Vorpal: like CPUID "GenuineIntel"
17:15:52 <elliott> For instance, on a GenuineIntel processor values returned in EBX is 0x756e6547, EDX is 0x49656e69 and ECX is 0x6c65746e. The following code is written in GNU Assembler for the x86-64 architecture and displays the vendor ID string as well as the highest calling parameter that the CPU supports.
17:15:56 <Vorpal> elliott, which is just putting the string in the registers iirc Had it written it to memory it would have been perfectly normal
17:16:03 <elliott> Vorpal: no, because it packs, see above
17:16:19 <Vorpal> elliott, packed more than byte after byte?
17:16:22 <elliott> as we see, C packs differently
17:16:24 <elliott> <elliott> For instance, on a GenuineIntel processor values returned in EBX is 0x756e6547, EDX is 0x49656e69 and ECX is 0x6c65746e. The following code is written in GNU Assembler for the x86-64 architecture and displays the vendor ID string as well as the highest calling parameter that the CPU supports.
17:16:24 <elliott> <elliott> For instance, on a GenuineIntel processor values returned in EBX is 0x756e6547, EDX is 0x49656e69 and ECX is 0x6c65746e. The following code is written in GNU Assembler for the x86-64 architecture and displays the vendor ID string as well as the highest calling parameter that the CPU supports.
17:16:25 <elliott> <elliott> For instance, on a GenuineIntel processor values returned in EBX is 0x756e6547, EDX is 0x49656e69 and ECX is 0x6c65746e. The following code is written in GNU Assembler for the x86-64 architecture and displays the vendor ID string as well as the highest calling parameter that the CPU supports.
17:16:29 <elliott> <elliott> For instance, on a GenuineIntel processor values returned in EBX is 0x756e6547, EDX is 0x49656e69 and ECX is 0x6c65746e. The following code is written in GNU Assembler for the x86-64 architecture and displays the vendor ID string as well as the highest calling parameter that the CPU supports.
17:16:33 <elliott> well, you didn't read it...
17:16:50 <Vorpal> and afaik it is just union { 32-bit register; char[4]; }
17:16:56 <Vorpal> not sure about endianness
17:17:04 <Vorpal> but that was the basic idea last I checked
17:17:18 <Vorpal> elliott, so I fail to see what is so amazing about it
17:17:21 <elliott> right, but i can't really do this packing from within c at compile-time
17:17:26 <elliott> i never said anything was amazing about it. wtf?
17:17:35 <elliott> I'm just saying that 'Genu' doesn't give the same results in gcc
17:18:03 <Gregor> !c printf("%d", sizeof('Genu'))
17:18:23 <Vorpal> elliott, well a string is also packed. Just do something like union { uint32_t i[2]; char c[8]; } ? then assign to c
17:18:24 <Gregor> !c printf("%d", sizeof('Genuine '))
17:18:31 <fizzie> That doesn't prove much, since single-character literals are also ints too.
17:18:45 <Gregor> !c printf("%d", sizeof('G'))
17:18:50 <elliott> Vorpal: "assign to c" I don't believe you can do this properly at compile time.
17:18:54 <elliott> Vorpal: Especially since my strings run *backwards*
17:19:03 <Vorpal> elliott, oh that backwardness might be an issue
17:19:10 <fizzie> The "character literals are of type int" is standard, but multi-character literals are implementation-defined.
17:19:14 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway you can assign there with C99
17:19:17 <elliott> Where || means "pointer is here".
17:19:22 <Vorpal> since you can tell it which member in the union
17:19:28 <Vorpal> but who uses C89 nowdays anyway
17:19:29 <elliott> Except that of course I want to pack 0 L I N into one word or so.
17:19:47 <Vorpal> elliott, well sucks to be you then. Easy to assign there at compile time with C99 :P
17:20:06 <Vorpal> the backwardness is an issue
17:20:10 <Vorpal> elliott, are you doing befunge or?
17:20:30 <Vorpal> elliott, why do they run backwards then?
17:20:34 <elliott> I'm arranging the objects so that NIL can be both a cons cell and a symbol.
17:20:37 <fizzie> What GCC does is: "The compiler evaluates a multi-character character constant a character at a time, shifting the previous value left by the number of bits per target character, and then or-ing in the bit-pattern of the new character truncated to the width of a target character. The final bit-pattern is given type int, and is therefore signed, regardless of whether single characters are signed or not."
17:21:00 <elliott> 0 [name of the symbol backwards ...] || [binary value ending with "0"]
17:21:04 <elliott> where || means "pointer is to here"
17:21:17 <elliott> || [binary value ending with "1x" for any x] [pointer to car] [pointer to cdr]
17:21:34 <elliott> 0 L I N || 0b10 [pointer to ||] [pointer to ||]
17:21:48 <elliott> <elliott> 0 [name of the symbol backwards ...] || [binary value ending with "1"]
17:21:50 <Vorpal> elliott, Seems a rather complex solution
17:21:53 <elliott> 0 L I N || 0b11 [pointer to ||] [pointer to ||]
17:22:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Not really, it's just a little bit of arranging and lets me avoid a ton of conditionals checking for x==NIL.
17:22:19 <elliott> Vorpal: It would probably be simpler if cons cells ran backwards since they have a fixed number of fields.
17:22:23 <elliott> Then the symbol names could run forwards.
17:22:35 <elliott> Vorpal: Of course all this has to be aligned so that the || pointer ends with 0.
17:22:47 <Vorpal> elliott, so how large is your cons cell? If it isn't 2*sizeof(void*) you are doing something wrong
17:23:11 <Vorpal> elliott, the tag is usually in that :P
17:23:13 <elliott> Vorpal: I could keep the tag in the pointer but I think it would waste 2 or 3 bits.
17:23:21 <elliott> No it's not usually in that...
17:23:25 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, why else would you end up with 21 bit integers in lisp and such
17:23:30 <Vorpal> which is rather common
17:23:39 <elliott> Vorpal: Silly type proliferation. :)
17:24:15 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway why does it need to store the name of the symbol every time?
17:24:23 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, I would prefer to have one tag distinguishing symbol vs. cons and then have the pointer tag just be smallint/pointer; that way, smallints can be 63-bits (on x86-64), and while you can have symbol-and-a-cons, you can't have symbol-and-a-cons-and-a-smallint which is just silly.
17:24:25 <Vorpal> couldn't you use a GCed symbol table?
17:24:29 <elliott> Vorpal: Also, uh, this is the symbol object.
17:24:35 <elliott> Of course every reference to it is just a pointer to it ...................
17:24:52 <elliott> (GCing them would be difficult to say the least.)
17:25:10 <Vorpal> elliott, well if you don't you get a silly situation. Like that of erlang. Where you can run out of atoms in theory.
17:25:14 <elliott> picolisp has "transient symbols" that are GC'd and they are used in place of strings... and also sometimes in macro
17:25:23 <elliott> syntax is "foo" but it's displayed in the REPL as underlined foo
17:25:39 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
17:25:42 <Vorpal> (the limit is rather high, and unless you are converting user input strings to atoms all the time you are probably safe)
17:26:56 <elliott> * sym: *tag_sym, name, 0 */
17:27:00 <elliott> * sym: *tag_sym, name, 0 */
17:28:20 <elliott> struct { cell x; cell y; cell tag; char name[1]; }
17:28:20 <elliott> nils = { nil, nil, tag_sym|tag_pair, "nil" };
17:28:33 <elliott> Vorpal: This would work, except (nils+2) has to be aligned to 0...
17:28:44 <elliott> Vorpal: (by nils+2 I mean &(nils.tag))
17:30:02 <Vorpal> elliott, awkward to not have everything the same size
17:30:14 <Vorpal> unless you put them in a special pool
17:30:19 <elliott> Vorpal: Suggestions welcome. :P
17:30:54 <Vorpal> elliott, forbid long names? If 4 letters is enough for befunge fingerprints then it is enough for you :P
17:31:43 <elliott> Vorpal: I could go for 16 or 24-char names.
17:31:50 <elliott> Vorpal: Problem is that if I use these for strings...
17:32:02 <elliott> Vorpal: I could always make symbols just conses of smallints.
17:32:06 <Vorpal> elliott, depending on what the size of cell is, and if it is 64-bit. Then you will have 3 or 7 bytes of padding after "struct { cell x; cell y; cell tag; char name[1]; }"
17:32:07 <elliott> Vorpal: (97 98) is 'ab :-)
17:32:26 <elliott> Vorpal: also, remember that char name[1] is actually a C89-style VLA :P
17:32:37 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, yes, 64-bit is the main target here.
17:33:05 <Vorpal> if so you would have 7 bytes of padding after the end of that array. That could be used for extending the name into
17:33:13 <Vorpal> so 8 bytes total for the name
17:33:34 <elliott> Vorpal: You do realise that name could be as long as I want?
17:33:39 <elliott> char name[1] is C89 phrasing of char name[].
17:33:43 <Vorpal> elliott, NOT IN MY SOLUTION :P
17:33:52 <Vorpal> elliott, which would allocate them end on end
17:34:03 <Vorpal> thus solving memory fragmentation
17:34:24 <Vorpal> and make allocation simple
17:35:14 <elliott> Vorpal: 8 bytes name does not sound fun :p
17:35:34 <elliott> Vorpal: Unless I Huffman-coded printable ASCII.
17:36:56 <Vorpal> elliott, also, it will make indexing into an array of those (not that you would need that) fast. Since it would then be a power of two in size
17:37:29 <Vorpal> elliott, indexing into an array where the elements are a power of two in size is just a bitshift.
17:37:54 <elliott> Vorpal: You have single-handedly managed to make me abandon this project :P
17:38:10 <Vorpal> elliott, what? I was just pointing out something interesting about pointers
17:38:16 -!- Sasha2_ has joined.
17:38:18 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah, but it happened anyway. :P
17:38:25 <Vorpal> elliott, well not my fault
17:38:48 <elliott> Oh look, the Beatles have made it on to iTunes. Now all those millions of iTunes users that have been holding out on listening to the Beatles because it's not on iTunes can experience the joy. Wait, what?
17:39:13 <Vorpal> elliott, so they no longer need to pirate it then?
17:39:19 <Vorpal> or use spottify (if it has it)
17:39:37 <Vorpal> elliott, that sounds a bit far fetched
17:40:04 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:40:05 -!- Sasha2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:40:51 <elliott> Vorpal: [[“I am particularly glad to no longer be asked when the Beatles are coming to iTunes,” said Ringo Starr.]]
17:40:59 <elliott> Translation: "Will you finally fuck off already?"
17:41:04 <elliott> I love how that's in the actual press release.
17:57:19 -!- Sgeo has joined.
17:57:30 <Sgeo> "Researchers who have spent months reverse-engineering the Stuxnet code say its level of sophistication suggests that a well-resourced nation-state is behind the attack."
17:57:38 <Sgeo> So, which #esoteric-er was it?
18:07:14 <elliott> 17:03:20 <ais523> ehird: that dwm source is clearly golfed
18:07:14 <elliott> 17:03:28 <ais523> it's doing things like fitting entire loops into the head of a for loop
18:07:14 <elliott> 17:03:44 <ais523> which is always possible, but only used for golfing and showing off AFAIK
18:07:20 <elliott> not really, to reply to April the First, 2009
18:13:37 <elliott> 19:15:53 <ais523> (if AnMaster were alive, he'd probably complain that _T infringes on implementation namespace or something like that...)
18:13:40 <elliott> Unfortunately AnMaster is dead.
18:14:38 <elliott> 19:44:51 <bsmntbombdood> oh, who was that girl who hung out in here?
18:14:38 <elliott> 19:44:59 <bsmntbombdood> liked manga, slept like 2 hours per night
18:14:38 <elliott> 19:45:06 <oerjan> razorX, aka sukoshi
18:14:38 <elliott> 19:45:29 <bsmntbombdood> ah, yes
18:14:47 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
18:14:49 <elliott> I like the implication that bsmntbombdood monitors and tracks everyone's sleep schedules.
18:14:55 <elliott> And now I should probably stop log-responding to last year.
18:16:30 <Sgeo> Didn't I act like an idiot one of these past April 1sts?
18:18:20 <elliott> 01:18:15 <ais523> in theory, sending a packet to 255.255.255.255 sends it to the entire Internet
18:18:20 <elliott> 01:18:21 <ais523> in practice, any sane router will drop it
18:18:25 <elliott> Sgeo: I'm not sure how to tell.
18:21:18 -!- augur has joined.
18:22:14 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, besides the insane O() thing, what's your opinion of Clojure?
18:23:40 <Sgeo> My migration to Scala 2.0.0:
18:23:48 <Sgeo> * I still use COBOL or equivalent
18:24:11 <Sgeo> I typed that by hand due to browser being a bitch
18:24:28 <elliott> You... usually copy version numbers?
18:24:58 <Sgeo> I would have copied the poll question and that option
18:25:11 <Sgeo> It's an actual poll on the Scala website
18:25:43 <Gregor> browsershots.org has volunteers donating compute time to make browser snapshots. You can pay the guy who runs the site an absurd monthly fee to get priority processing. I wonder if any of that money goes to the volunteers who run the screenshot boxes ... I'm betting no. Seems pretty unethical.
18:26:26 <elliott> Gregor: browsershots.org is pretty crappy in my experience.
18:26:33 <elliott> Gregor: Some of those Linux browsers are VERY INTERESTINGLY configured.
18:26:42 <Gregor> elliott: Yes, it is, but browsershots.org + js.codu.org = best idea ever ;)
18:26:55 <elliott> Gregor: Make sure Lynx is included :P
18:27:15 <Gregor> Lynx has no JS. And in spite of common misconception, neither do any of the .*Links.* browsers.
18:27:23 * Sgeo decides to try it on Wikipedia
18:27:28 <elliott> Gregor: Shut up. Include it.
18:27:32 * Sgeo doesn't realize that it will take a while
18:28:02 <elliott> Gregor: I suggest you fork w3m into w3m-js :P
18:28:13 <elliott> Gregor: w3m-html5. It even supports <canvas>, <audio> and <video>!
18:28:50 <Gregor> elliott: In all honesty, I think the only way we could get to a usable text-based browser that's borderline-modern is by having a headless graphical browser do the real work and then intelligently rerender its results in text.
18:30:38 <elliott> Gregor: What you're saying is, we need a libwww that does everything, including layout, except display.
18:31:12 <Gregor> elliott: Pretty much. Something you can plug a renderer into, and then have that renderer HAPPEN to be text based and do a bunch of approximation for pixels->cells.
18:31:22 <elliott> pikhq: You just registered for Agora.
18:31:28 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Abandonando).
18:31:38 <elliott> Gregor: I approve and suggest you do all the work.
18:31:53 -!- sebbu has joined.
18:31:55 <Gregor> elliott: That's funny, 'cuz I approve and suggest YOU do all the work!
18:32:12 <elliott> Gregor: I'm a centrist! Let's each do 50% of the work!
18:32:34 <Gregor> elliott: I'm a sadist, let's pikhq do 115% of the work.
18:33:51 <elliott> Gregor: I'm a masochist, let's I do 75% of the work and you do 25%.
18:35:15 <Gregor> elliott: I'm a sadomasochist, let's everybody do 115% of the work, then throw it all away.
18:36:04 <elliott> sshc cuts himself every night thanks to Phantom_Hoover.
18:36:23 <Gregor> (He used to cut himself during the day)
18:36:31 <Sgeo> When elliott said that, I thought pikhq was the anti-uorygl
18:36:45 <elliott> Gregor: I'm your boss, you do the work.
18:36:57 <Gregor> elliott: I'm THE boss. Tony Danza.
18:37:10 <elliott> Gregor: I'm a dominatrix-to-be. Pay for my sex change.
18:37:20 <Sgeo> elliott, before I checked Agora, I thought you were saying pikhq accidentally registered
18:37:35 <elliott> Gregor: I think we have reached maximum ridiculousness :P
18:37:35 <Sgeo> Which is the opposite of accidentallly deregistering
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18:55:15 <olsner> elliott: building ghc is not that bad actually, I've closed that terminal window now but pretty sure it took less than 30min
18:56:26 <Vorpal> <elliott> 19:15:53 <ais523> (if AnMaster were alive, he'd probably complain that _T infringes on implementation namespace or something like that...) <-- what?
18:56:40 <Vorpal> elliott, that would be pointless. You know about it and still ignore it. :P
18:57:09 <Vorpal> elliott, good question :P
18:57:14 <Vorpal> (alternatively: your mom)
19:15:16 * Sgeo downloads Ubuntu Desktop edition
19:23:47 * Sgeo wonders if Kubuntu is decent these days
19:24:10 <Sgeo> Although there is a lot of KDE4 hate here
19:24:22 <Gregor> That would be because KDE4 is made of fail.
19:24:28 <elliott> Kubuntu is basically dead.
19:24:39 <elliott> I think it will cease to be official in a few releases' time.
19:25:08 <Sgeo> What is this opinion based on?
19:25:27 <Sgeo> Last time I used Kubuntu was many many years ago. Things liked crashing
19:27:29 <Sgeo> If I install Desktop edition, I should be able to install Unity later if I want, right?
19:28:26 <elliott> I am establishing a policy: I refuse to answer any of Sgeo's questions that could be easily and objectively answered by Google.
19:28:31 <elliott> I suggest everyone else does the same.
19:29:40 <Sgeo> Does "Google it" count as an answer?
19:30:09 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
19:30:35 <elliott> Sgeo: And nor does linking you to goatse.
19:30:54 * Sgeo already did on your prompting
19:31:39 * Sgeo self-alarms at the "on your prompting" bit though
19:32:13 <elliott> Nee-naw, nee-naw, nee-naw, nee-naw. I am the external alarm actuator.
19:41:14 <Sgeo> Going to install Ubuntu
19:41:34 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:42:11 -!- SgeoN2 has joined.
19:48:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Use it to approximately interpret http://esolangs.org/wiki/Gravity programs! (Note: Don't.)
19:49:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Adding charge is literally a matter of defining *k* to be -1, then adding a charge number to point masses.
19:52:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: *\varepsilon! \epsilon is ugly. :-P
20:00:15 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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20:01:06 <SgeoN2> How close could an approximate Grand iTunes interpreter get? For a hypothetical program where all point masses stay at 1, a naive approximator that just looks at a finite playing field gets it wildly wrong
20:01:37 <SgeoN2> Gravity. Not grand iTunes
20:01:52 <coppro> also, I always use \epsilon
20:02:38 <elliott> coppro: \epsilon is ugly and you are a horrible person.
20:02:51 <elliott> Admittedly redefining \epsilon to \varepsilon is better than kludging the name in all the time.
20:03:07 <elliott> http://code.google.com/p/libass/
20:03:48 <SgeoN2> So they want to subtitle my ass?
20:04:12 <Phantom_Hoover> SgeoN2, gravity is IIRC one of those things with asymptotic precision on a Turing machine.
20:05:45 * SgeoN2 wonders if the Ubuntu installer will putt the acupuncture=no thing
20:05:51 <SgeoN2> And tuck you autocorrect
20:10:16 * SgeoN2 wonders why there are 3 windows options in grub
20:10:36 <SgeoN2> And why 2 failed to work, and the third is creeping me out
20:10:59 <elliott> * SgeoN2 wonders if the Ubuntu installer will putt the acupuncture=no thing
20:11:01 <Phantom_Hoover> "Sgeo... come with us into the bootloader... come... join us..."
20:11:20 <SgeoN2> No, I don't want to do system recovery!
20:12:00 <SgeoN2> Ubuntu seems to have some trouble booting
20:12:22 <elliott> SgeoN2: Protip: Restart the installation, this time choose to use the entire hard disk.
20:12:26 <elliott> This will get rid of irritating Windows.
20:15:12 <SgeoN2> Some windows thing is attempting to repair disk errors, and saying it might take over an hour to complete
20:15:43 <SgeoN2> Chances of it obliterating GRUB?
20:16:26 <elliott> SgeoN2: 333% unless you ditch goddamn windows.
20:17:53 <elliott> SgeoN2 is too young to drink alcohols
20:17:59 <SgeoN2> Grub not obliterated. PH, in the past
20:18:12 <SgeoN2> Elliott, actually, I'm not
20:18:38 <elliott> There is no possible way you are 21.
20:19:18 <SgeoN2> Windows is working again
20:19:28 <SgeoN2> Now to try to get Ubuntu to work
20:19:57 <Phantom_Hoover> SgeoN2, the man eternally battling to keep two OSes afloat amid a sea of nostalgia.
20:21:00 <elliott> Wow, like Atlas if it was two OSes rather than the world.
20:21:04 <elliott> Also if Atlas was nostalgic.
20:21:25 <olsner> Also if Atlas was the one holding up the world.
20:21:47 <olsner> he didn't until someone made a book of maps in like the 1900's
20:22:10 <elliott> Also if olsner was beaten to death by a crow before he ever got the chance to say that.
20:22:32 <olsner> I've been told he did hold up the sky though, so "rather than the sky" would work
20:22:39 <elliott> olsner: the heavens, it seems
20:22:43 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/MAN_Atlante_fronte_1040572.JPG
20:22:49 <elliott> "Farnese Atlas, a 2nd century Roman copy of a Hellenistic work (Naples)"
20:22:52 <SgeoN2> Now, just need to edit the grub file
20:22:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You're not a crow.
20:23:06 <elliott> SgeoN2: You're not meant to do that. Use grub-update.
20:24:34 <SgeoN2> But I need to edit the damn thing!
20:25:02 <elliott> I wouldn't mind you asking things incessantly nearly as much if you FOLLOWED ADVICE WHEN GIVEN IT.
20:26:19 <SgeoN2> I did it. It just did its own useless thing
20:26:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, he's been tying himself to Windows for the sake of a single application for years now. If he wanted our input, he would have taken it.
20:27:08 <SgeoN2> Man update-grub doesn't hint at any options
20:27:48 * SgeoN2 tries man grub-mkconfig
20:27:54 <olsner> oh my... you were almost fun there for a short while, then you turned boring again
20:28:04 <elliott> SgeoN2: You are now on indefinite ignore until you cease doing at least one of these things: (1) Asking questions incessantly when they are not interesting and easily answerable by Google. (2) Ignoring advice when given it. When you cease doing at least one of these things, you may ignore-evade in any way you wish in order to communicate this fact to me. Do not evade the ignore for other reasons. The ignore will be reinstated if you start doing w
20:28:05 <elliott> hat you claimed to have ceased again.
20:28:34 <elliott> olsner: i blame you. also, society
20:28:40 <SgeoN2> But your damn "advice" is useless here!
20:29:15 <olsner> elliott: blame all you want
20:29:27 <elliott> olsner: did you not destroy Atlas
20:29:59 <olsner> nope, you already did long ago by giving him false attributes, I undestroyed him for you
20:30:17 <elliott> SgeoN2: To respond to your last pre-ignore messages, you are allowed to cease asking incessant questions of the type I described, instead of ceasing to follow advice when given.
20:31:48 <SgeoN2> Wait, what? Did Elliott just suggest that one option is to stop following given advice?
20:33:36 <SgeoN2> Somehow, I don't have a /boot/grub/menu.lst
20:33:50 <elliott> SgeoN2: No. (I feel it bad karma to tell you things without at least checking for replies.) The two options are:
20:33:58 <elliott> (1) Asking questions incessantly when they are not interesting and easily answerable by Google. (2) Ignoring advice when given it.
20:34:13 <elliott> I don't believe (2) is the best thing to stop doing, really, and it does not appear to be what you want to do.
20:35:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, well, it was more an accumulation.
20:35:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: If Sgeo stops (1) he knows how to tell me. fungot is, after all, present.
20:36:14 <SgeoN2> Well, Google found me an answer of what to do to get update-grub to do what I want
20:37:26 <SgeoN2> Ah, it mentioned some package
20:38:16 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, apparently Golly didn't work properly on Fedora.
20:38:18 <SgeoN2> Is elliott aware that I didn't cause fungot to say that?
20:38:19 <fungot> SgeoN2: that would be ( load " /syntax-case") to " 6566676869707172"?? haha
20:38:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Since it assumed that an Ubuntu-only symbol was in libz.so.
20:38:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Ubuntu-only symbol? Presumably Debian-only but still, I don't think they tend to change APIs...
20:39:14 <SgeoN2> Well, that was useless
20:39:16 <elliott> Oh, I thought fungot was relaying a Sgeo message. Heh.
20:39:17 <fungot> elliott: until i find the tendency to minimize attractive... in a sense... " fnord" would sound: really stupid.
20:39:25 <elliott> Fnord does indeed sound really stupid.
20:40:15 <elliott> I don't think Debian tends to change APIs, but whatever.
20:40:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Indeed! :-P
20:40:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Except that I imagine the compilation would have failed on Fedora instead...
20:40:37 <elliott> If you tried to compile it on Fedora.
20:40:54 <Phantom_Hoover> I'd assume they were using the prebuilt binary, but still...
20:41:40 <Phantom_Hoover> But the reason that binary wasn't compatible across distros was SHARED LIBRARIES!
20:44:19 <SgeoN2> Found what I needed on Ubuntu Wiki's grub2 page
20:44:22 -!- aloril has joined.
20:45:11 <pikhq> "720x400" WHY WOULD YOU EVER SCALE A VIDEO TO THAT RESOLUTION. EVER.
20:45:58 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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20:51:38 <olsner> "Are you obsessed with incest or something?" "Yeah, I have a sister."
20:51:53 <Vorpal> <elliott> Oh, I thought fungot was relaying a Sgeo message. Heh. <-- you have him on ignore or?
20:51:54 <fungot> Vorpal: stalin does, but that's easy to do and
20:52:08 <Vorpal> stalin vs. martians I presume
20:52:09 <elliott> <elliott> SgeoN2: You are now on indefinite ignore until you cease doing at least one of these things: (1) Asking questions incessantly when they are not interesting and easily answerable by Google. (2) Ignoring advice when given it. When you cease doing at least one of these things, you may ignore-evade in any way you wish in order to communicate this fact to me. Do not evade the ignore for other reasons. The ignore will be reinstated if you sta
20:52:09 <elliott> <elliott> hat you claimed to have ceased again.
20:52:48 <elliott> Vorpal: Ha, Stalin vs. Martians got terrible reviews: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin_vs._Martians
20:53:21 <Vorpal> elliott, wasn't it done as a parody of bad games or something?
20:53:33 <elliott> <olsner> "Are you obsessed with incest or something?" "Yeah, I have a sister."
20:54:40 <elliott> <olsner> "Are you obsessed with incest or something?" "Yeah, I have a sister."
20:54:40 <elliott> <Vorpal> <elliott> Oh, I thought fungot was relaying a Sgeo message. Heh. <-- you have him on ignore or?
20:54:41 <fungot> elliott: 2 razor-x: ps ( thread-id 5)
20:54:56 <HackEgo> 201|<alise> So basically we're having an awful lot of very dangerous intercourse. <alise> Involving open wounds. <coppro> I'm going to take a shower
20:54:56 <HackEgo> 98|<fungot> ehird: every set can be well-ordered. corollary: every set s has the same diagram used from famous program talisman with fnord windows to cascade, someone i would never capitalize " i"
20:54:56 <HackEgo> 147|<ais523> (still, whatever possessed anyone to invent the N-Gage?)
20:55:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover said it thrice.
20:55:51 <HackEgo> 15|<Lil`Cube> wouldn't that be considered pedophilia? <Quas_NaArt> No. They all go by stage names.
20:55:52 <HackEgo> 112|<Dylan> Warrigal is the Harlem Globe Frotter
20:55:53 <HackEgo> 125|Note that quote number 124 is not actually true.
20:56:06 <elliott> `quote 124 -- it's inevitable
20:56:10 <HackEgo> 124|<Warrigal> I cannot eat meat that isn't flat.
20:56:23 <elliott> !sh for i in $(seq 10); do echo '`quote; done
20:56:27 <elliott> Oh, wait, that won't work.
20:56:40 <olsner> haha, read that as "I cannot eat meat that's gone flat"
20:56:41 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.30719: line 1: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `''
20:56:49 <olsner> like you can only eat carbonated meat
20:56:56 <elliott> i want to try carbonated meat now
20:58:04 <olsner> remember, you can only eat until it goes flat
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20:59:03 <olsner> "Indeed." is such a nice sentence
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21:03:00 <Vorpal> elliott, btw in my storage room in minecraft. I hate signs for all chests. Most are stuff like "Dirt" "Cobblestone" or such. Some chests ended up containing more than one thing due to not having very much of anything. I Like the sign saying "Safety/TNT" :D
21:03:36 <Vorpal> (safety = various stuff like fences, ladders and such)
21:05:07 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah and I only realised the sillyness of that sign after I placed it
21:05:20 <elliott> *silliness, English nonsensicality ahoy!
21:06:20 <elliott> basically y->i when doing that :P
21:06:27 <Vorpal> also due to using one sign between 4 chests I have to use one row per chest. Which leads to stuff like "<- Au/Fe/Gem" (can't use C, because C could be coal as well as diamond. And coal is in another chest)
21:06:28 <elliott> when putting a suffix after it, I guess
21:08:30 <Vorpal> elliott, issue with using lightstone in the ceiling: the floor above looks rather silly
21:08:43 <Vorpal> hm perhaps I could somehow put them under wall for most of the time...
21:08:58 <elliott> Vorpal: btw, jack-o-lanterns are really nice and cheap
21:09:19 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but that depends on finding pumpkins. I have extremely few in this world.
21:09:41 <Vorpal> so far I found 5. There are about 3 more according to some mapping tools. Spread out in remote and hard to reach places
21:09:53 <Vorpal> that is, on the generated chunks
21:10:04 <Vorpal> presumably there are way more if I were to explore the whole world
21:10:47 <Vorpal> elliott, and I found a lot of easy to reach lightstone
21:11:01 <elliott> Vorpal: Hmm, true, pumpkins are rare, but often I start a game and quickly come across a patch of them.
21:11:33 <Sgeo> fungot, say hi
21:11:34 <fungot> Sgeo: ( although he was pretty much the only thing you can call me something different".
21:11:35 <Vorpal> elliott, wouldn't last very far for this castle
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21:14:03 <Sgeo> `ul (I will try to not ask easily-Googleable and stupid questions)S
21:14:48 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
21:15:02 <Sgeo> `echo I will try to not ask easily-Googleable and stupid questions
21:15:03 <HackEgo> I will try to not ask easily-Googleable and stupid questions
21:19:01 <Sgeo> `echo Would that count as a stupid question? Admittedly, not easily Googled, but easily log-determinable
21:19:02 <HackEgo> Would that count as a stupid question? Admittedly, not easily Googled, but easily log-determinable
21:19:51 <elliott> Also, you can stop that now, I can see your messages.
21:21:42 * Sgeo goes to install unity for some reason
21:21:53 <elliott> Sgeo: You really don't want Unity, but be my guest...
21:22:16 <elliott> Sgeo: It may be too slow, as well, depending on your graphics card.
21:22:33 <Sgeo> That reminds me, I should install the restricted drivers
21:23:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Unity is the one they're putting Wayland on, isn't it?
21:24:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What wrong reasons are there? As far as I can tell it's "X sucks", which it does.
21:24:29 <elliott> Also, they're putting Unity on Wayland.
21:24:33 <elliott> You got it the wrong way around.
21:24:39 <elliott> If so, there are no restricted drivers.
21:24:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What wrong reasons?
21:25:01 <Sgeo> elliott, some ATI card
21:25:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Unity exists for netbooks. It will exist for desktops because GNOME Shell is going to be awful.
21:25:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It could have been good but its flaws are too numerous, I feel. Perhaps they will fix it.
21:26:22 <Phantom_Hoover> So, to sum up: KDE, screwed; GNOME, to be screwed; XFCE, to join GNOME in its screwedness.
21:26:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes. Say goodbye to the panel.
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21:26:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Xfce are probably too bass-ackwards to ever change anything. :)
21:27:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: They're good enough in the WIMP system. The real problem is that GNOME's replacement is just stupid and no I won't tell you, google GNOME Shell.
21:28:07 <Sgeo> Why would they make GNOME Shell a default thing?
21:28:21 <Sgeo> Why not make it "Oh, here's this experimental thing we want to play with"?
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21:29:06 <elliott> Sgeo: Because they think it's better, and GNOME 3 is meant to revolutionise EVERYYYYTHIIIIIIIIIIING
21:29:14 <elliott> They don't see it as a plaything.
21:29:29 <Phantom_Hoover> So wait, if you want to do *anything*, you have to move the mouse to the corner and go into GUI subspace?
21:30:05 <Sgeo> Be back soonish
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21:30:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's called buy a Lisp Machine. (And before you argue, note that @'s compatibility will hardly be better. All you need to code is an IRC client and a web browser really.)
21:30:41 <olsner> wtf: "move the mouse to the corner and go into GUI subspace?"
21:30:44 <olsner> what's that even mean?
21:31:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Existing systems :P
21:31:27 <elliott> olsner: Google GNOME Shell.
21:31:40 <elliott> olsner: Explaining it is a tedious process when a fancy video can impart its shittiness quiet adequately.
21:31:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Couldn't you write some @ code to interface with Ye Olde Filesystemes?
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21:33:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Sure; Genera can already access filesystems. Well, Open Genera can via NFS; I'm sure Genera has NFS too. Or if not, it won't be too hard to code it. Probably. Since Genera actually has a filesystem.
21:34:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But yes, @ will have olde filesystem access sometime. It will not be all *that* integrated and I have no plans of making it so, but it will be functional.
21:34:18 <elliott> And I'm not going to support writing to NTFS :-)
21:35:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (You should buy a Lisp Machine anyway. Even if the shipping of a 3620 to London is $900.)
21:35:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (I suppose you could just buy a MacIvory, if you're lame and want the Lisp Machine to be an expansion card of a 68k Macintosh that you bring up Genera on by opening a Mac OS application.)
21:35:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (Those are cheaper to ship, I think, but more expensive. Probably cheaper overall.)
21:36:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Or you could just dedicate a partition to Ubuntu 7.10 with snap4 set up to run Open Genera for free.
21:36:30 <elliott> You could even set up X11 without a window manager and start Open Genera on boot. Seamless!
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21:48:49 <Sgeo> I can no longer mouse up to the top of the screen to click a tab :(
21:49:46 <elliott> And so Sgeo discovers Fitt's Law.
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21:53:07 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought that was "people can click big things more easily than small things".
21:54:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Uhh... more refined than that. It's also "Things at the edges of the screen are easy to click because they're infinitely high/wide. Corners are the absolute easiest things to click, since they're both."
21:54:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's actually a formula with parameters, but it yields this result.
21:55:24 <pikhq> And it's fairly obvious when stated plainly — after all, you can overshoot the edges by any amount and still be at the edge.
21:56:01 <Phantom_Hoover> I'd heard of both, but I hadn't realised they were both the same law.
21:56:51 <Sgeo> Someone should make some thing where the cursor keeps moving past the edge
21:56:54 <Sgeo> Just to be a prick
21:58:05 <Vorpal> elliott, do you want to see some images of the castle I have been working on? Note: not finished yet. Took quite a lot of time what with the lower walls being obsidian.
21:58:28 <Vorpal> elliott, okay will take some. I believe it is several chunks in size
21:59:03 <elliott> Vorpal: ...aren't chunks huge?
21:59:24 <Vorpal> elliott, I believe it is 4x4 chunks or such
21:59:44 <Vorpal> elliott, photos will have to wait 10 minute or so. Nothing much to see atm...
21:59:55 <elliott> http://www.google.com/recaptcha/api/image?c=03AHJ_VutELgGQ23UEOR4UMo73E5ZtPQujY1tbYuonaG8cfhiJ7qzTRCPSV1nYXXP_9VmMqtEIR9tNvV2Jm5wXMrROAxdbuUf8WHxcanzn9ggGTl4ndwuvAhjeJ275UQdtPTxzguqat0U8VcALxAob8qvAfBgVeNi9DA
22:00:22 <Vorpal> elliott, I doubt I could load it atm. Opening firefox = swaptrash
22:00:27 -!- Sasha2_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
22:00:39 <elliott> Vorpal: Awful, that's what.
22:01:00 <elliott> Vorpal: "A method used by Notch to divide infinite maps in the alpha release. They are 16*128*16 blocks."
22:01:21 <elliott> Vorpal: So, more than that!
22:01:34 <elliott> Vorpal: Haha, imagine if you ran the generator with a clean slate for every chunk.
22:01:46 <Vorpal> elliott, it is just that if you load the game while standing inside, it takes a few seconds until the remote walls show up
22:01:56 <elliott> "Terrain generated in infdev has the potential to be almost 235 petabytes, which is 240,640 terabytes, in size when stored in memory, due to the sheer size of the map (several times the surface area of the Earth)."
22:02:28 <elliott> Vorpal: It appears the world is not actually infinite.
22:02:44 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway: long term goal: make ground floor obsidian as well. Due to the size that is a long term goal. it has been done around the doors however
22:02:45 <elliott> "The world folder may have up to 64 subfolders, each with up to 64 additional subfolders each."
22:03:00 <elliott> Probably coordinates are 64-bit or something.
22:03:10 <elliott> Vorpal: And you stay in this thing every night?
22:03:16 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm not sure of the size. But I think it is like 50x30 or something like that
22:03:28 <Vorpal> elliott, well nah, peaceful *still* so I build on it
22:03:52 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh come on, disable peaceful :P
22:03:54 <Vorpal> elliott, but that is the plan. Going to build defences outside. I have a catus farm going near the beech outside
22:03:54 <elliott> Vorpal: You have no excuse by now.
22:04:04 <elliott> Vorpal: There is no way anything could get inside that castle :P
22:04:18 <Vorpal> elliott, excuse: stairs into place are not well protected. Think of creepers
22:04:49 <Vorpal> elliott, also yes spiders could still jump on top. Which is where I'm building the second floor atm (stone. Why stone.... smelting cobblestone all the time...)
22:05:00 <elliott> Vorpal: Creepers haven't got that much patience :P
22:05:05 <Vorpal> (it looked better but I'm starting to regret the decision...)
22:05:31 <elliott> Vorpal: Make sure to build a spire all the way to the top.
22:05:31 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:05:48 <elliott> Vorpal: Make a spiral staircase that finishes at the absolute top with, say, a 4x4 platform. You know you want to.
22:05:59 <elliott> Well, maybe absolute top but one, so you can have protecting walls on the outside so you don't fall off.
22:06:06 <elliott> Also you probably want walls around the staircase in case you fall.
22:06:12 -!- wareya has joined.
22:06:15 <elliott> And I don't have to do any work either!
22:07:21 <elliott> Vorpal: (Or just use a vertical boat.)
22:07:27 <elliott> Also build it out of OBSIDIAN because that's PRACTICAL.
22:07:44 <elliott> Vorpal: Eventually your castle will be so big that you'll have to navigate it with the Nether.
22:08:11 <Vorpal> elliott, btw next time I build something like this I will use a small obsidian tower, maybe 10 high. Then build a fort on top of that. Would look improbable. But less obsidian needed
22:08:14 <elliott> Vorpal: Hey, put minecarts in the Nether and have, like, signs at various places of interest. That would eliminate the need to build underground railways, and it'd be faster, too.
22:08:19 <Vorpal> and a misplaced obsidian HURTS to correct
22:08:58 <Vorpal> elliott, btw I plan on a moat of fire and cactus around (fire using netherstone, of which I have *two* chests filled).
22:09:18 <Vorpal> but getting lava would take longer
22:09:47 <Vorpal> elliott, oh btw I build this around a nether portal.
22:09:51 <elliott> Vorpal: How about just hoping for a Nether biome and building inside that :P
22:10:04 <elliott> Vorpal: (Nether biome = huge solid cube, as you know.)
22:10:11 <elliott> You'd just need a door to the inside :P
22:10:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: a (Nether biome)
22:10:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, like heather. Only less so
22:11:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, buy the game :P
22:11:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's only £9 :P
22:11:42 <Phantom_Hoover> I got some piece of bank-related plastic in the post yesterday.
22:15:06 <Vorpal> hm. How to build a protected dock
22:15:25 <Vorpal> you can't completely close it. placing a door on a square = no water on it
22:15:42 <Vorpal> thus, how do I build a secure dock connected to this house?
22:16:51 <elliott> Vorpal: You mean, water couldn't flow past the door?
22:17:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps I can get money from it. But is it electric money?
22:17:08 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean that it will create a hole
22:17:13 <elliott> Vorpal: Can enemies pass through a 1x1x1 hole on the ground?
22:17:14 <Vorpal> let me take a screenshot of the effect
22:17:22 <Vorpal> elliott, I believe spiders could
22:17:27 <elliott> Vorpal: If not: Let there be a hole with water flowing through on the "ground level". Board the rest up.
22:17:34 <elliott> Vorpal: OK, then, can spiders destroy a 1x1x1 block?
22:17:54 <Phantom_Hoover> It also says "Mr", and then my real name, which shows that it's from a bank.
22:17:56 <elliott> Vorpal: If not: Have an easily-destroyed block. Destroy it to open the "door". Put it back afterwards.
22:18:06 <Vorpal> elliott, and a boat need 2x3 to pass through (2 wide, 3 high)
22:18:13 <Vorpal> elliott, or perhaps 2x2
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22:18:24 <Vorpal> it can't go through 1 wide anyway
22:18:36 <Vorpal> and you will need it 3 high to get out
22:18:46 <Vorpal> not sure if 2 high is enough if you are sitting down
22:18:56 <elliott> Vorpal: OK, how about accepting that the dock might get invaded, and just protecting the house with a door?
22:19:06 <elliott> Then just prepare to FIGHT when you open the door to the dock.
22:19:17 <elliott> Just leave the smallest hole you can for boats in the actual dock.
22:19:40 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway my minecart system is secure. :D
22:19:40 <elliott> Vorpal: I mean, if it's next to a sea, I doubt you'll see anything swim there and then go through the small hole.
22:19:46 <elliott> Vorpal: And then stay there for the rest of the night.
22:19:52 <Vorpal> elliott, skeletons can walk under water iirc
22:19:54 <elliott> Vorpal: Besides, you could easily fight it off.
22:19:57 <Vorpal> elliott, and won't burn then
22:21:05 <elliott> Vorpal: I still think you should build a minecart system inside a big block of Nether.
22:21:08 <Vorpal> elliott, btw I would build some of those TNT defense cannons except they seem to have a tendency to sometimes explode in the wrong way (that is, destroying the canon)...
22:21:10 <elliott> Vorpal: (Overground Nether has monsters)
22:21:15 <elliott> Vorpal: That'd be faster and more fun!
22:21:58 <Vorpal> elliott, there is no over-ground in nether. Also not all stations I want to get to have portals. Even though I tried they just end up pointing elsewhere
22:22:27 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, but I mean...
22:22:33 <elliott> You know how you sometimes spawn on a really huge, really tall block in Nether?
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22:26:44 <Vorpal> aargh there is a cave system there!?
22:26:51 <Vorpal> just 20 meters from my fort
22:26:58 <Vorpal> lots of coal and iron. Nice
22:27:06 <Vorpal> oh well. Will need to do something about it
22:27:48 <Vorpal> elliott, preparing to upload screenshots
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22:30:19 * Sgeo wants to boot from ISO (Note that I'm not asking if it's possible: I'm about to Google)
22:31:21 <Vorpal> elliott, first: water + door = http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/minecraft/screenshots/2010-11-16_23.18.41.png
22:31:30 <elliott> Sgeo: There is support in GRUB 2.
22:31:35 <elliott> Sgeo: But the OS has to support it.
22:31:47 <Vorpal> elliott, see what I mean?
22:31:48 <elliott> Sgeo: Think about it -- the OS, even if its kernel is loaded, has to find where all the the files are on its /. So it has to mount it.
22:32:01 <elliott> Sgeo: And it isn't going to go mount another partition and look for an ISO. (Not unless you added support for that.)
22:32:14 <elliott> Sgeo: Some Linux distro does it.
22:32:36 <elliott> Vorpal: But does it work if you open it?
22:32:41 <Vorpal> elliott, there are those that boot from disk images indeed. Never heard of booting from the iso case though
22:32:45 <Vorpal> elliott, it stays a hole
22:32:45 <elliott> Vorpal: If not, can the boat survive a bumpy start like that?
22:33:00 <Vorpal> elliott, and well, I know it can survive with *one* side that way
22:33:04 <Vorpal> it is the standard dock
22:33:30 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway it would be too low to get throygh... Hm can you stack doors I wonder...
22:33:35 <elliott> (Eh? I don't get it. But okay.)
22:34:46 <elliott> TOPIC #esoteric :http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
22:34:48 <Vorpal> elliott, you would suffocate by getting your head in the stone. The door is 2 blocks high. the lower half is in the "water" (or rather: it isn't... thanks to the screwy physics). So one block above the water
22:34:50 <elliott> TOPIC #esoteric :http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | 10 MAYBE 30 ELSE 15 : 15 MAYBE 40 ELSE 20 : 20 MAYBE 10 ELSE 25 : 25 MAYBE 40 ELSE 30 : 30 MAYBE 10 ELSE 35 : 35 MAYBE 20 ELSE 40 : 40 MAYBE 20 ELSE 45 : 45 MAYBE 30 ELSE 10
22:35:31 <Vorpal> elliott, when you sit in boat your head is in block 2 above the water I think
22:35:45 <Vorpal> thus: suffocation risk
22:35:50 <Vorpal> or just not getting through
22:35:58 <Vorpal> elliott, fort photos: http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/minecraft/screenshots/fort/
22:36:17 <Vorpal> elliott, btw did I mention the spherical pano from mine craft that I was working on. Should get that done
22:36:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I thought "Fort Fuck You Mine Is bigger"
22:37:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, walls are dark blue
22:37:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, err the stuff below is below the floor
22:37:38 <Vorpal> below the dark blue walls
22:38:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and the stone above the lower level is just the start of the walls for the second level
22:38:49 <elliott> Vorpal: wat @ http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/minecraft/screenshots/fort/2010-11-16_23.12.46.png
22:38:59 <elliott> Or is that the second floor?
22:39:03 <Vorpal> elliott, that is the second one
22:39:13 <Vorpal> elliott, and the stairs up to the future third one
22:39:17 <elliott> http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/minecraft/screenshots/fort/2010-11-16_23.13.04.png What's that pathway for?
22:39:46 <Vorpal> elliott, it marks where my mine cart system goes. So I could plan it out. And know where to turn.
22:39:54 <Vorpal> elliott, and also figure out how deep below the water it needed to go
22:40:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Please tell me your fort has a way to go underground to the minecart system.
22:40:04 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, it is no fun if you get flooded while building
22:40:12 <Vorpal> elliott, oh indeed. It is on the first floor
22:40:13 <elliott> Vorpal: And then all you have to do is build forts at every stop, and you NEVER HAVE TO LEAVE YOUR HOUSE.
22:40:40 <Phantom_Hoover> You could run an underground system of tunnels and build up from that!
22:41:05 <Vorpal> elliott, actually the next stop (this fort is an end station currently) is into a cavern/mine. The upper part and very closed off. There are doors to the actual caverns from there
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22:41:57 <Vorpal> elliott, and the next stop after that is the spawn point. And then a house next to the farming area. Then the end stop at the other end, which is just outside the first deep cavern system I found.
22:42:05 <Vorpal> should be more built in
22:42:08 <Vorpal> when I get around to it
22:42:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, you have such a cool surname and you're WASTING IT
22:42:48 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway I believe the sea is at level 60 or something. And the first leg from the fort of the mine cart system is at level 40. So quite deep
22:42:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh? What is it?
22:43:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, MacHover?
22:44:03 <Sgeo> Grr at screencast with scrollbars
22:44:25 <Sgeo> The video is too large for the browser, so I see scrollbars
22:44:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Phantom_McHoover.
22:45:30 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway. I'm not sure how much time it would take to build the second floor roof. I think the third floor will actually be some castle-like thingies. Towers in the corners. Open to the air. Perhaps the entire third floor dotted with light stones? Hm
22:45:41 <Vorpal> and also provide nice light for the level below
22:46:46 <Vorpal> elliott, like the idea?
22:47:18 <Vorpal> elliott, going to work on pano now
22:47:44 <Vorpal> hugin: error while loading shared libraries: libexiv2.so.6: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
22:47:58 <Vorpal> I'm going to have to recompile it
22:49:14 <Vorpal> sent 25 bytes received 290285 bytes 25244.35 bytes/sec
22:49:14 <Vorpal> total size is 15800000 speedup is 54.42
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22:53:09 <Phantom_McHoover> Vorpal, incidentally, did you make the obsidian by casting lava?
22:54:44 <elliott> <Vorpal> hugin: error while loading shared libraries: libexiv2.so.6: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
22:54:47 <elliott> Hey, shared libraries suck.
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22:55:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_McHoover, I used water on still lava yes
22:58:50 <gm|lap> someone called donald needs to make a minecraft server
22:58:55 <gm|lap> and call it McDonald's
22:59:20 <gm|lap> extra kudos if it's donald knuth
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23:14:37 <Sgeo> For no good reason, I am trying again
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23:20:28 <Vorpal> elliott, fizzie: http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/minecraft/minecraft_pano_test1.jpg
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23:21:01 <Vorpal> also needs to be straightened a bit
23:21:20 <Vorpal> this goes 360 degrees to the top
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23:27:01 <fizzie> I have that Descent-level-to-Blender exporting thing; maybe I could construct a Minecraft-to-Blender version too. (Though I'm sure there already are ways to render Minecraft worlds with third-party toolery.)
23:28:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, there is but they don't render the same mostly
23:28:34 <Vorpal> no clouds. Mostly shows ores instead
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23:32:10 <elliott> http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/minecraft/minecraft_pano_test1.jpg
23:32:14 <elliott> minecraft has weird geometry
23:32:59 <Vorpal> elliott, blame 360° in left-right and 180° in up-down
23:33:04 <Vorpal> elliott, just due to panorama.
23:33:07 <elliott> Vorpal: like the lands are tilted
23:33:17 <Vorpal> elliott, minecraft does however have strange *geography*
23:33:22 <Vorpal> but not strange geometry
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23:34:03 <Vorpal> elliott, that is with the new generator. You seen the location before btw
23:34:15 <elliott> Vorpal: It's always winter in a winter biome
23:34:15 <Sgeo> Last time I played with VirtualBox, I remember having less than a fun time switching virtual CDs
23:34:20 <elliott> Always spring/summer in the ... regular biome
23:34:32 <elliott> Just right click the CD icon and pick a new one.
23:35:10 <Vorpal> elliott, well notch might add seasons
23:35:16 <Vorpal> it would be cool if he did
23:35:23 <Vorpal> need to be short ones though
23:35:27 <Vorpal> or it would get boring
23:35:28 <elliott> Vorpal: I think I read about plans for weather.
23:35:40 <Vorpal> well weather is shorter scale
23:35:40 <elliott> Vorpal: On the Biomes wiki page or something.
23:35:55 <Sgeo> Ooh, VirtualBox has 3d accel
23:36:04 <elliott> Sgeo: "Good luck with that."
23:36:16 <Vorpal> elliott, but I mean. Winter for a few hundred days = boring
23:36:20 <elliott> Sgeo: I doubt Active Worlds is intensive enough to require it anyway :P
23:36:36 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, it would take a whole 33 hours :P
23:36:46 * Sgeo wants to try various Linux distros.. and any 3d effects they might have
23:36:47 <Vorpal> elliott, 33 whole *playing* hours
23:36:53 <elliott> Sgeo: Compiz is useless crap.
23:37:01 <Vorpal> elliott, which is a bit longer. You don't play for 33 hours straight
23:37:23 <elliott> Vorpal: I still think you should be able to let the game time go on unattended; if you, say, get into a shelter, it'd be safe.
23:37:49 <elliott> Like, click "start unattended", Minecraft exits, next time you start it up, it simulates the world for as many seconds as it's been down.
23:37:55 <Vorpal> elliott, you can. open inventory. Switch away
23:38:08 <elliott> Vorpal: That doesn't work if you shut down your computer.
23:38:21 <Vorpal> elliott, ah you are doing something wrong there :P
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23:39:17 <Sgeo> This installation is supposed to reset my network connection
23:39:40 <elliott> Sgeo: You are using the one from the repositories right?
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23:39:50 <elliott> Not downloading it manually?
23:39:51 <Sgeo> elliott, right now I'm on Windows
23:40:08 <elliott> Sgeo: Trust me, you either want Debian or Ubuntu.
23:40:19 <elliott> The others suck immensely :P
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23:41:15 <Sgeo_> I remember OpenSUSE looking cool in one screenshot I saw
23:41:41 <sshc> Archlinux is great too
23:41:44 <Vorpal> you can make any distro look like any other in general :P
23:42:03 <elliott> Sgeo_: You do realise that default configurations are irrelevant?
23:42:09 <elliott> Sgeo_: You do realise that flashiness is IRRELEVANT?
23:42:49 <elliott> sshc: what Arch would like to be is nice enough. what Arch actually is, is a community of people who think that small monospaced fonts in a semi-transparent terminal constitutes "minimalism"
23:43:29 <sshc> I like small monospaced fonts in a tabbed tiling WM.
23:43:29 <Sgeo_> Yes, adding CDs in VirtualBox is still a prick
23:43:34 <sshc> I use Debian to flush my toilets for me.
23:43:42 <sshc> Unfortunately, it doesn't always work.
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23:45:03 <elliott> sshc: Have fun with anything that uses the "python" executable inexplicably not working because your distro is run by people who think that the "future" involves breaking things for the sake of higher version numbers.
23:45:05 <Vorpal> elliott, actually that thing about small monospaced font in semi-transparent isn't default. Would need to be setup.
23:45:12 <elliott> Vorpal: Arch users are all about setup!
23:45:26 <Vorpal> elliott, and every distro with a reasonable sized user base will have idiots
23:45:29 <elliott> Vorpal: In fact, their average day involves installing a new window manager and configuring it to be pretty but impossible to use.
23:45:34 <elliott> Vorpal: Sure, but have you SEEN the Arch forums?
23:45:40 <elliott> They're almost worse than Ubuntu's!
23:45:45 <Vorpal> elliott, no I'm not interested in forums :P
23:46:00 <elliott> Vorpal: At least the idiots on the Ubuntu forums aren't package maintainers.
23:46:11 <Vorpal> elliott, There was one guy who packaged lots of ocaml stuff on aur for example. And frama-c/why
23:46:21 <Vorpal> elliott, so obviously there are smart people out there
23:46:40 <Vorpal> (as in, I'm not the only smart arch user)
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23:46:59 <elliott> Vorpal: Sure... but they have reached critical mass.
23:47:36 <elliott> on the territory of the bozos
23:47:39 <Vorpal> squatter? Not the domain sense presumably?
23:48:26 <Vorpal> elliott, EISDOWNSTAIRS ETOOFAR
23:48:41 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, a few years ago the sane developers decided to ignore Gentoo users' complaints because they were usually clueless ricers and because the maintainers generally didn't give too much of a shit about how badly they broke stuff.
23:48:54 <Vorpal> elliott, EMINECRAFTPRECLUDESRUNNINGBROWSER
23:49:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Nowadays, it's Arch. And the maintainers to ignore are instead AUR packagers, meaning that the quality is even lower.
23:50:08 <Vorpal> I would probably use gentoo if I could skip the compilation time
23:50:33 <Vorpal> of course, only debian stable would be more outdated...
23:50:47 <Vorpal> at least arch has quite recent packages
23:50:55 <elliott> Vorpal: I love how Gentoo manages to be bleeding-edge in its sheer unreliability and dinosauric in its outdatedness.
23:51:21 <Vorpal> elliott, it used to be much more up-to-date in stabe
23:51:25 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, the answer to all this is to use Kitten. Which, I swear, is being worked on.
23:51:38 <Vorpal> elliott, rolling release?
23:51:48 <Vorpal> elliott, also it needs to package what I want
23:51:52 <Vorpal> which is quite a lot of packages
23:51:55 <elliott> Vorpal: What do you want? :P
23:52:09 <Vorpal> $ ls /var/lib/pacman/local/ | wc -l
23:52:11 <elliott> Vorpal: Making a package should be really trivial if anything isn't packaged, for what it's worth. But I'll include the obvious stuff.
23:52:17 <Vorpal> elliott, I will pastebin the list :P
23:52:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Firefox, for instance (note: it won't be called Firefox because Mozilla are jerks :P)
23:52:34 <Vorpal> elliott, here: http://sprunge.us/PiCK
23:52:52 <elliott> I mean, sure, I could just refrain from making ANY MODIFICATION AT ALL, but I'd also be distributing not-really-Free software if I did that.
23:52:53 <Vorpal> elliott, package is called firefox here, but browser is called namoroka
23:53:03 <elliott> Vorpal: I'll just call it Iceweasel, since everyone else does. Probably.
23:53:15 <Vorpal> elliott, well, here it uses the code name for it
23:53:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Namoroka will change by the next Firefox, which is vaguely irritating.
23:53:31 <elliott> Vorpal: Man, you have aalib installed.
23:53:41 <Vorpal> elliott, huh. I have no clue
23:53:54 <Vorpal> Required By : gstreamer0.10-good-plugins mplayer
23:54:05 <elliott> Vorpal: Also, note that that installed package count is inflated; for instance, you won't need libraries most of the time, due to static linking.
23:54:07 <Vorpal> elliott, somewhat crazy packaging perhaps
23:54:14 <elliott> Vorpal: Of course the "libfoo" packages will include the libraries for development.
23:54:20 <Vorpal> elliott, they do on arch
23:54:29 <elliott> Vorpal: What does on Arch?
23:54:35 <elliott> Vorpal: Need the libraries?
23:54:48 <Vorpal> elliott, libfoo includes what is needed to compile stuff against them
23:54:48 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, but static linking. You don't *need* libfoo.a at any point other than linking, see?
23:54:56 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway you can't do completely static
23:54:58 <elliott> Vorpal: But you won't see a runtime dependency on libfoo.
23:55:03 <Vorpal> elliott, everything loading plugins will
23:55:14 <elliott> Vorpal: I will probably include a dynamic linker for such programs.
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23:55:27 <Vorpal> elliott, openoffice can't be linked statically
23:55:33 <elliott> Vorpal: The stali people are working on a "dynamic linker" that actually injects the libfoo.a; I might use that when it gets working.
23:55:50 <elliott> Vorpal: OpenOffice isn't really supported :P But sure, it's not "hard" to include a dynamic linker if you really need it.
23:55:57 <Vorpal> elliott, also what if there is an urgent security fix in glibc. Have fun recompiling everything. (Never mind that you would have to anyway due to glibc stupidity)
23:56:06 <sshc> So I heard that Debian users have collaborated on designing a stimulated universe in which pleasure is more intense and suffering doesn't exist.
23:56:07 <Vorpal> (other libraries aren't as stupid)
23:56:14 <elliott> Vorpal: Firstly, see your parenthical remark. Secondly, I don't use glibc.
23:56:29 <Vorpal> elliott, if libpng needs security updates: everything linked against it would be recompiled
23:56:42 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah, but it's not that big of a deal.
23:56:56 <elliott> Vorpal: I can easily automate that. And I'll probably offer binary diffs for packages.
23:56:59 <Vorpal> elliott, might be for stuff like zlib which half the system links against
23:57:24 <Vorpal> elliott, getting the update out would take a while. Unless you get a compile farm
23:57:45 <elliott> Vorpal: Fun fact: pcc compiles things really quickly.
23:57:54 <Vorpal> elliott, and how is runtime performance?
23:57:58 <Vorpal> elliott, compared to clang and to gcc
23:58:03 <sshc> Quite wonderful, sir.
23:58:10 <elliott> Vorpal: pcc is good at optimisation. Not mega-clang-optimisation, but it's good.
23:58:25 <elliott> Vorpal: Competitive with gcc -O2, I'd say. But I'm going to compile the system with -Os, because it tends to be faster than any other kind of optimisation.
23:58:32 <Gregor> sshc: Have you written our generic pluggable-rendering version of WebKit and text-based browser yet?
23:58:38 <elliott> Vorpal: pcc isn't some newcomer, remember; it's been developed from 1970 onwards. :P
23:58:58 <elliott> Vorpal: Also, stuff that can't be done with pcc will be done with clang or gcc. gcc will definitely be a package.
23:58:59 <Vorpal> elliott, might want to do libc.a or such with clang then. And possibly stuff like compression libraries. (zlib and such).
23:59:05 <Gregor> No, it's been developed from 1970 to ~1990, then 2009ish onwards :P
23:59:25 <Sgeo_> elliott, I would obviously prefer to install from repos where possible, but what's so terrible about not doing so in the case of VirtualBox?
23:59:25 <sshc> Yes! However I formatted my harddrive.
23:59:27 <elliott> Vorpal: libc is going to be either dietlibc if things will work with it, or uClibc.
23:59:35 <Sgeo_> Or is it a general "You should be installing from repos" thing?
23:59:37 <Vorpal> elliott, having a fast strlen would be quite nice and so on :P
23:59:40 <elliott> Vorpal: uClibc must be built with gcc. But I got dietlibc compiling with pcc with just a few patches.
23:59:55 <elliott> Vorpal: I think dietlibc has an assembly strlen. I forget.