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00:05:35 <Hiant> Accursed dc'ing, one day I will conquer you!
00:14:50 * Sgeo vaguely wonders why he's trying to relearn Scala
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00:54:26 <Sgeo> elliott, you're in my state?
01:00:47 <pikhq> No. Nor is he in York.
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01:50:51 <Sgeo> infinity = Succ infinity
01:51:02 <Sgeo> That... I can imagine how it's legal, I guess
01:51:09 <Sgeo> But it's still a bit of a headache
01:51:31 <Sgeo> I guess it's no more unreasonable than infinite lists
01:52:28 <pikhq> let 0 = succ 0 in ...
01:57:15 <Sgeo> Does anyone ever write zero = Zero
01:57:27 <Sgeo> So they have consistency with other assigned constants?
01:57:31 <Sgeo> Such as infinity?
02:00:48 <Sgeo> "That condition is never going to pass, so lyingSearch going to keep taking the Succ branch forever, thus returning infinity"
02:01:01 <Sgeo> How does it do that in a finite amount of time?
02:01:06 <Sgeo> http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/2010/11/17/searchable-data-types/
02:29:40 <pikhq> Presumably it runs on an Infinity Machine.
02:34:25 <Ilari> Hmm... Somebody should write DNSSEC system simulator that simulated a domain, its upstream and clients trying to resolve. Then it would let you do various things and warn if those things would break stuff... :-)
02:35:04 <coppro> Sgeo: Because it's lazy
02:35:25 <coppro> and also because the result of lyingSearch is indistinguishable from infinity
02:35:38 <coppro> both are Succ $ Succ $ Succ $ Succ ad nauseam
02:46:41 <Sgeo> Anyone want to attempt to prove/disprove Goldbach?
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02:47:36 * Sgeo meant twin primes, but I'm sure both are not easily determinable via this mechanism
02:51:02 * Sgeo now wants a detailed explanation on why
02:52:42 <coppro> Because this mechanism does not produce infinite calculations
02:52:54 <coppro> it merely exploits a trick to make two values indistinguishable
03:09:20 <pikhq> It's shorter by about a hundred miles to drive from England to Iran than to drive from Washington to Georgia.
03:09:49 <coppro> puts it in perspective, eh?
03:10:39 <pikhq> Yeah — the US is really, truly, positively huge.
03:10:50 <coppro> not as big as Canada, though!
03:11:09 <pikhq> Yeah, but much less of Canada has notable population.
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03:12:16 <pikhq> (I mean, really, how many people actually live in Nunavut, Yukon, or the Northwest Territories?)
03:14:35 <pikhq> Course, on the other hand: how many people actually live in fucking Alaska?
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03:16:16 <Sgeo> I should try Losethos
03:16:36 * Sgeo has a weird definition of "should" sometimes
03:17:28 <Sgeo> "Emulators are
03:17:28 <Sgeo> like running on pathetic hardware, so run it directly or use VMWare. It's not
03:17:28 <Sgeo> very power efficient for laptops, either."
03:17:56 <Sgeo> I do want a nice programming OS to play with
03:19:47 <pikhq> Loſeþos, sadly, has an extra dose of crazy.
03:21:15 <Sgeo> "LoseThos requires a 64-bit capable processor"
03:21:21 <Sgeo> Isn't that what I'm emulating?
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03:48:57 <Sgeo> Dear Windows validation: Thanks for not checking that I'm actually using a version of Windows that allows me to use XP Mode
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06:01:09 * Sgeo downloads House
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06:09:15 <Sgeo> And... I want a manual
06:11:20 * Sgeo is amused by how ungoogle-able House is unless you have some idea of the context
06:11:33 <Sgeo> http://programatica.cs.pdx.edu/House/
06:12:33 <Sgeo> Oh, there is a manual
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07:42:32 <Guest3160> i was typing a response and bam irssi broke
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09:13:55 <evincar> Well, entertain me, gents.
09:18:57 <cheater99> evincar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYV_-QnWBoA&feature=related
09:22:13 <cheater99> you wrote that after reading the description.
09:22:27 <evincar> I did, but it doesn't make it any less true.
09:22:41 <evincar> It is characteristic of the year it came out. So sue me.
09:23:28 <evincar> I've been awake for a while.
09:25:39 <cheater99> i hate you and everything you stand for, evincar
09:26:01 <evincar> cheater99: Liar from the past!
09:27:15 <cheater99> indeed, i had travelled from the past to this specific moment in time. how come you knew??
10:29:19 <evincar> cheater99: I'll be back some day to banter with you at a time when my wit reserves aren't so depleted.
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13:13:38 <cheater99> while(true); do cat wget.log | awk '{if(($0~/\.\./)&&($0~/%/)){ got_line = 1; line=$0; } else { if(got_line == 1) { print line; got_line=0 } print $0;}}' | tail -n 100; sleep 0.01; done;
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13:18:15 <fizzie> Nice Useless Use of Cat there, too.
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13:22:31 <cheater99> fizzie: i replaced it with tail -n10000
13:23:20 <cheater99> fizzie: usually i prefer not to pass the file argument to awk, for clarity
13:23:27 <cheater99> otherwise, this code would become unintelligible.
13:23:34 <cheater99> and we wouldn't want that, now would we.
13:28:03 <fizzie> What's the logic there? If there's a % and a .. on a line, then repeat that before the next line?
13:29:05 <cheater99> concatenate lines that look like this:
13:29:06 <cheater99> 0K .......... .......... .......... .......... .......... 2% 247K 9s
13:29:06 <cheater99> 50K .......... .......... .......... .......... .......... 4% 25.2K 48s
13:29:06 <cheater99> 100K .......... .......... .......... .......... .......... 6% 21.5K 64s
13:29:06 <cheater99> 150K .......... .......... .......... .......... ..
13:30:18 <fizzie> Oh, right, the latter print $0 is inside the else. So keep only the last line like that, right.
13:30:45 <cheater99> "print line" prints the last line like that
13:30:53 <cheater99> "print $0" prints lines that are not like that.
13:38:06 <fizzie> sed -e '/\.\..*%/{h;d};H;s/.*//;x;s/^\n//'
13:38:14 <fizzie> See, that's much more comprehensible than some inscrutable awk expression.
13:38:43 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: it might not completely work.)
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14:03:57 <cheater99> while(true); do s=`du -chs . | grep total`; t=`date +%s`; while(true); do cat wget.log | awk '{if(($0~/\.\./)&&($0~/%/)){ got_line = 1; line=$0; } else { if(got_line == 1) { print line; got_line=0 } print $0;}}' | tail -n 100; echo $s; echo $t; u=`date +%s`; if [ "$u" -gt "$t" ]; then break 1; fi; sleep 0.01; done; done;
14:07:10 <fizzie> I just said "might not completely work"; it did work in my tests.
14:07:39 <cheater99> i prefer my iterative method to your functional method
14:08:07 <fizzie> I don't see what's functional about it; there's even a jump in the middle and all.
14:13:12 <fizzie> "du -hs ." prints out just a single-line total for current-directory, so you don't need to grep there.
14:13:25 <fizzie> And "while true" is better since "while (true)" involves true being unnecessarily started in a subshell.
14:22:44 <cheater99> but i'll keep it this way because it adds the word "total" which is nice
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14:23:23 <cheater99> removing that dot from du would be painful i think, still requires a grep
14:23:46 <Vorpal> hm in minecraft I found out two major cavern systems (major means: huge, and goes all the way between the surface and the bedrock) that I thought were separate (due to being quite far from each other) were actually connected deep down. That ruins my path notation system which marks the way up with 3 torches when there are branches that would make it confusing otherwise.
14:24:18 <Vorpal> oh well I guess I will have to switch to proper signs
14:27:18 <Vorpal> (why 3 torches rather than signs? Lots of reasons: Torches stack in your inventory, You need them anyway while exploring caverns. Plenty of coal down there but not much wood, and signs uses quite a lot of wood compared to torches.)
14:28:54 <fizzie> $ t=`du -hs .`;echo total: ${t%.}
14:29:02 <fizzie> That's not very painful.
14:29:52 <fizzie> ${foo%blah} removes the longest matching trailing instance of "blah". (It can have ?* style wildcards.)
14:30:26 <fizzie> Uh, or actually it was the shortest matching.
14:30:41 <fizzie> It's ${foo%%blah} for the longest case. I always forget which one is which.
14:32:14 <fizzie> There's also corresponding ${foo#blah} and ${foo##blah} forms that remove prefixes, and ${foo/blah/bleh} which replaces the first blah with bleh. (Simplified.)
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15:24:40 <elliott> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_rJ4QOxacA0U/Syxx8VXhIMI/AAAAAAAAAEg/KvSxckiK6rs/s1600-h/Screenshot.png
15:31:28 <elliott> ^ sed script to convert file of lines to fortune db
15:32:56 <fizzie> perl -e 'print join "%\n", <>;' <-- Perl script to do the same, just for giggles.
15:33:35 <fizzie> (Will load the whole file in memory, though.)
15:36:16 <elliott> fizzie: in this case it was a 70 meg file (entire clog #esoteric logs), so my solution is nicer
15:36:22 <elliott> although it's not that big a deal
15:36:38 <elliott> fizzie: also, does that handle when the file ends
15:36:58 <fizzie> Yes, the join only puts %s between the lines.
15:37:33 <fizzie> Instead of dividing by lines, though, you should divide it into short, semantically meaningful snippets. (With a sed oneliner.)
15:37:45 <cheater99> aja, i've fixed the screen glitches.
15:38:05 <elliott> fizzie: Well, the point was to use fortune to power optbot, since it's designed to spew out a given random snippet.
15:38:24 <elliott> fizzie: So I stripped away dates and names, and even names before the first :, but some people use "," which it doesn't catch. Whatever.
15:38:30 <cheater99> sometimes "echo" would take just long enough to cause the listing to jump around
15:38:36 <fizzie> Oh, I thought you were going to use that, well, for fortune.
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15:39:26 <fizzie> Getting something insightful like "<elliott> %" as a random message at login would certainly brighten anyone's day!
15:40:32 <elliott> fizzie: Absolutely. (Hmm, I just ensured that this can't possibly work if you strip off names, by sending "%" as a message.)
15:40:46 <elliott> (Nice job breaking it, hero.
15:41:15 <fizzie> Heh. Did fortune database format have some sort of quoting?
15:42:35 <cheater99> while true; do s=`s=\`du -hs .\` ; echo ${s%.} total`; t=`date +%s`; while true; do (cat wget.log; echo; echo; echo $s; echo $t) | awk '{ out = ""; if(($0~/\.\./)&&($0~/%/)){ got_line = 1; line=$0; } else { if(got_line == 1) { out = line "\n"; got_line=0 } out = out $0; print out}}' | tail -n 100; u=`date +%s`; sleep 0.01; if [ "$u" -gt "$t" ]; then break; fi; done; done;
15:43:23 <cheater99> well... one thing i could do is to add an adaptive low-pass filter to measure the speed, but meh
15:44:47 <elliott> Hmm, is there a fancier elisp for (getenv "HOME")? I know it has /tmp as a verbosely-named directory.
15:48:35 <fizzie> (expand-file-name "~") is fancy.
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16:05:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I hereby approve of ido-mode and flymake.
16:05:58 <elliott> Note this down in your textbook.
16:06:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No; scrawl on your textbook.
16:20:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh dear, now my ~/.emacs is huge; how did that happen?
16:28:38 <elliott> Now I actually want that in-Emacs browser X-D
16:29:29 <elliott> "Unix directories get bigger as you add files, but, oddly, don’t get smaller when you delete those files"
16:34:25 <fizzie> FAT directories do the same, since deleting a file from a FAT filesystem equals replacing the first byte of the file name with 0xe5.
16:34:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_rJ4QOxacA0U/Sqs9y8eDJ1I/AAAAAAAAACE/F4cN6N1rTgE/s1600-h/Screenshot.png
16:34:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_rJ4QOxacA0U/Syxx8VXhIMI/AAAAAAAAAEg/KvSxckiK6rs/s1600-h/Screenshot.png
16:36:39 <elliott> Man, I love how crazy svk is.
16:36:43 <elliott> (Distributed subversion. Seriously.)
16:37:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's not really usable yet (last I heard text input doesn't work any way other than using the middle mouse button to paste).
16:37:16 <elliott> Admittedly ezbl would hide the suckiness :P
16:38:40 <elliott> "The Distributed Concurrent Versions System (DCVS) is a distributed revision control system that enables software developers working on locally distributed sites to efficiently collaborate on a software project. DCVS is based on the well known version control system Concurrent Versions System. The code is freely distributable under the GNU and BSD style licenses."
16:43:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The thing in the two screenshots I linked.
16:43:12 <elliott> An Emacs-patched-with-XEmbed-support interface to uzbl.
16:44:46 <elliott> I need a global hotkey that switches to emacs :P
16:46:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Can you link me to that post about colours I linked you a while back? I've lost it.
16:50:11 <Vorpal> <elliott> Man, I love how crazy svk is. <-- iirc I tried it once and conclusion was "rather broken as well"
16:50:18 <Vorpal> was several years ago though
16:50:39 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, Best Practical use(d) it for everything, so it's not like it's untested.
16:50:42 <elliott> Vorpal: Let's say "fucked up" :P
16:51:06 <Vorpal> elliott, is "Best Practical" a project or something?
16:51:17 <Vorpal> elliott, that is the only way to get that sentence to parse :P
16:51:31 <elliott> Vorpal: Best Practical is a Company with a capital C. They make the RT "request tracker" (bug tracker) system that Perl uses, for instance.
16:51:41 <elliott> Pretty much famous for that :P
16:51:53 <elliott> Well, did; it's abandoned.
16:52:07 <Vorpal> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_rJ4QOxacA0U/Sqs9y8eDJ1I/AAAAAAAAACE/F4cN6N1rTgE/s1600-h/Screenshot.png http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_rJ4QOxacA0U/Syxx8VXhIMI/AAAAAAAAAEg/KvSxckiK6rs/s1600-h/Screenshot.png <-- uh.. the first one doesn't look like w3m-el to me. The second one? Huh?
16:52:19 <elliott> Vorpal: I love all these little strange VCS systems -- arch, DCVS (seriously), svk, Monotone, Codeville -- although, well, that's really two categories: the insane (arch, DCVS, svk) and the merely interesting.
16:52:21 <Vorpal> so what is that thingy
16:52:26 <Vorpal> (in those screenshots)
16:52:34 <elliott> Vorpal: Nowhere did I ever claim they are w3m-el. If you read onwards you will see that I already explained; I won't repeat myself.
16:52:45 <elliott> Vorpal: The latter has an "Emacs in a web browser" thing opened.
16:52:51 <elliott> Vorpal: i.e. a web-based editor that shares some superficial keybindings
16:52:52 <Vorpal> elliott, arguably you could say that monotone belongs to the rather insane category too. And not in a good sense.
16:53:11 <elliott> Vorpal: I know you have this really strange opinion of Monotone but it's actually well-engineered from what I've seen.
16:53:24 <elliott> Paranoid with its hashes... sure. You're paranoid too :)
16:53:47 <elliott> Vorpal: Also, remember that git, mercurial, Bazaar -- are all years younger than Monotone. So the user experience hadn't been standardised as much then.
16:54:00 <elliott> Darcs was the first thing to have a UI similar to current tools, in 2002. (Second ever DVCS).
16:54:03 <elliott> But even it's odd in some ways.
16:54:08 <Vorpal> true. That is a major reason for the wtfness of monotone
16:54:36 <Vorpal> elliott, arguably svn inspired the current ones as well to some degree when it comes to user interface.
16:54:42 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, yes, but it wasn't distributed.
16:55:18 <elliott> I started writing a DVCS once. Never did finish it. I should!
16:55:21 <elliott> Or maybe just merge it with ais523's.
16:55:40 <elliott> Vorpal: Real irritant for me: you can't make Emacs start up maximised.
16:55:40 <Vorpal> elliott, and I wouldn't say that darcs is very similar to the current major ones. bzr/hg st is something like darcs whatsnew iirc
16:55:46 <elliott> (You can make it fill the screen but not "properly".)
16:55:57 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, no, but it has close analogues to just about every command.
16:56:12 <elliott> Vorpal: (Although its cherry picking is sorely missed in all other current offerings.)
16:56:40 <Vorpal> I guess only haskell people can wrap their head around making it work. IIRC I heard it was somewhat tricky to implement.
16:57:00 <Vorpal> wrt emacs: are you sure it doesn't expose any way to do it from elisp?
16:57:05 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah, well... it takes a physicist to design darcs. That isn't a saying but it should be.
16:57:08 <elliott> Vorpal: Also, yes, I'm sure.
16:57:15 <elliott> I've googled extensively, and everyone's just calculating pixels to set it to.
16:57:24 <elliott> But that rounds to the nearest line.
16:57:30 <Vorpal> elliott, but that isn't the same, semantically..
16:57:34 <elliott> Thus leaving an ugly space to the right and bottom of the Emacs window.
16:57:45 <Vorpal> try moving a maximised window vs. one that happens to fill the screen
16:58:01 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway that ezbl thing needs a patched Emacs :)
16:58:14 <elliott> Vorpal: But it *is* very cool, and it also furthers my True Emacs WM idea.
16:58:18 <Vorpal> elliott, but that ymacs thingy, is it a screenshot filling that screenshot?
16:58:22 <elliott> Vorpal: Which is: Have X windows be actual Emacs buffers.
16:58:32 <elliott> Vorpal: see http://www.ymacs.org/demo/
16:58:35 <elliott> Vorpal: it's just that, loaded in Emacs
16:58:51 <Vorpal> elliott, huh. My first thought was "oh god, someone implemented a VNC client in emacs". It looks like a window inside a window :P
16:59:12 <elliott> Vorpal: well with the xembed patch you could easily do vnc
16:59:16 <elliott> Vorpal: it's just getting input to the window
16:59:22 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway True Emacs WM would be awesome
16:59:25 <Vorpal> elliott, is this patch going official?
16:59:53 <Vorpal> err ymacs is written in js
16:59:59 <Vorpal> does it use lisp at all?
17:00:11 <Vorpal> like implementing an interpreter for lisp
17:00:45 <elliott> Vorpal: it's lame, but the screenshot is just meant to be silly :P
17:00:49 <Vorpal> elliott, hm how flexible is it?
17:00:58 <elliott> Vorpal: "not at all" i would guess
17:01:14 <elliott> Vorpal: but hey, click the maximised thing
17:01:17 <Vorpal> elliott, just make emacs work on jsmips then use that
17:01:19 <elliott> you can drag ymacs around!!
17:01:29 <elliott> Vorpal: emacs would already work on jsmips, it has C
17:01:32 <Vorpal> elliott, can you create more windows?
17:01:37 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't think so :P
17:01:45 <Vorpal> elliott, emacs uses a lot more system calls than vi I think
17:02:10 <Vorpal> elliott, since jsmips is not feature complete afaik, I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't work
17:02:14 <elliott> Vorpal: Very Ibloated Meditor
17:02:28 <elliott> Vorpal: VIM = Very I-bloated M-editor :P
17:02:41 <Vorpal> elliott, the M confused me :P
17:02:48 <elliott> That's right bitches, I'm even a minimalist snob about vi!
17:03:10 <elliott> Oh wow, jsmips' ls is now coloured X-D
17:03:13 <Vorpal> elliott, vi? bah. Too large
17:03:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Don't suggest ed, I actually use ed sometimes.
17:03:32 <Vorpal> elliott, no I suggest dd/sh :P
17:03:34 <elliott> Vorpal: Say, does your fort have any glass windows? If not, why not?
17:03:38 <elliott> Vorpal: there's an editor implemented in dd/sh
17:03:47 <Vorpal> elliott, thats off topic here really :P
17:03:53 <elliott> Vorpal: http://dd-sh.intercal.org.uk/ex1/
17:04:00 <elliott> Vorpal: specifically, it was the first ever dd/sh program in 1998 or something
17:04:20 <Vorpal> elliott, I meant using dd/sh raw as your editor of course. dd-ex is bloated ;P
17:04:44 <elliott> Vorpal: But dd-ex is supported by famous science fiction author Charlie Stross! http://www.metafilter.com/67661/Words-words-words-And-symbols#1954503
17:04:58 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Stross
17:05:29 <elliott> Author of Singularity Sky and Halting State! Publisher of the ridiculously popular blog post about the Lord who purported to have talked to a group that wanted to buy the British government recently!
17:05:31 <Vorpal> elliott, err, it says: "I use vi. This is because I am a clueless luser, unlike the fellow responsible for THIS."
17:05:43 <elliott> IN THIS WORLD WE HAVE HYPERLINKS IN OUR BROWSERS
17:05:50 <Vorpal> elliott, but he says he use vi not dd-ex :P
17:05:57 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, but he says that dd-ex is superior.
17:06:01 <elliott> Vorpal: By calling himself a clueless luser.
17:06:14 <elliott> Vorpal: Compare "I use Windows because I'm a hopeless gamer, unlike the real men who use OS/2!"
17:06:24 <elliott> (BET YOU DIDN'T EXPECT THAT ENDING)
17:06:48 <elliott> Hmm, Emacs needs an eval-after-both-loaded.
17:06:58 <elliott> I'm putting requires in my .emacs.
17:07:07 <Vorpal> elliott, "real man". There is only one OS/2 user left :P
17:07:23 <elliott> THE EMACS POLICE ARE GONNA KILL ME FOR NOT USING AUTOLOAD
17:08:06 <Vorpal> elliott, autoload is only useful for stuff you only need sometimes afaik
17:08:24 <elliott> (Emacs-Lisp Paredit ElDoc) -- could editing code in the possibly the worst Lisp ever even possibly *be* more comfortable???
17:08:30 <elliott> I have perfected mediocrity!
17:08:37 <Vorpal> elliott, so if you will use that one every time, I fail to see why autoload would be useful
17:08:48 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, you have appreciated my EmacsWM idea insufficiently.
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17:09:00 <Vorpal> elliott, hasn't it been done already?
17:09:06 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, but -- not Properly.
17:09:18 <elliott> Vorpal: It's just some elisp that uses emacs as the root window and talks to X11.
17:09:30 <elliott> Vorpal: In *mine*, the various windows are actually *Emacs buffers*.
17:09:38 <elliott> C-x b to change a window. Tile at will with C-x 1, 2, 3, etc.
17:10:06 <Vorpal> elliott, uh okay. So it renders everything, rather than letting X11 do it? or?
17:10:31 <elliott> Vorpal: Just position the windows so that they appear inside the buffer area.
17:10:31 <Vorpal> elliott, why not write an X server in emacs? :D
17:10:44 <elliott> Vorpal: (But that has the issue that you can't use Emacs commands inside the buffer.)
17:11:01 <Vorpal> elliott, can you with xembed?
17:11:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Really the main issue here is that Emacs commands clash with just about everything else, so you have to figure out where to send each keypress. :)
17:11:17 <elliott> Vorpal: The problem exists with XEmbed, too, but at least Emacs can *see* the keypresses like that. (I think.)
17:12:13 <Vorpal> elliott, I hate to suggest it, but emacs/client modes. Could use ctrl-alt or such. Though that would clash with stuff that uses that for ungrabbing pointer
17:12:44 <Vorpal> elliott, what about the logo key? Nothing really uses that
17:12:50 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, I hate to suggest it, but emacs/client modes. Could use ctrl-alt or such. Though that would clash with stuff that uses that for ungrabbing pointer
17:13:03 <elliott> You mean bind a specific key prefix to mean "give this to Emacs"?
17:13:05 <Vorpal> elliott, it feels too much like vim with those two modes :P
17:13:20 <elliott> Vorpal: The problem is that you'd want to use C-x b, C-x {1,2,3} all the time.
17:13:27 <Vorpal> elliott, well I thought hit emacs attention key, then give key combo to emacs
17:13:31 <elliott> Vorpal: And, well, "C-x" is a rather common keybinding, if you know what I mean.
17:13:33 <Vorpal> hit it again to go back
17:13:58 <Vorpal> elliott, logo key or menu key should be suitable for this. Though I have menu bound to compose and logo to super
17:14:06 <elliott> Vorpal: Now what we really need is an OS whose interface is an Emacs-on-steroids to begin with, so that everything is already integrated and the interfaces are written to be in this kind of interface from the start...
17:14:09 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh wait, that's called @.
17:14:49 <elliott> Vorpal: @ is pronounced the same as however the name of ElliottOS will be when it is released is pronounced.
17:16:02 <elliott> Vorpal: It is entirely possible that I refuse to rename [whatever I call the prototype versions of ElliottOS] to a final name because it will never be perfect. :P
17:19:15 <elliott> Vorpal: Still, at least my ideas about the system are coming together...
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17:23:16 <Vorpal> elliott, until you hear about something else. Then a complete overhaul will take place
17:23:36 <elliott> Vorpal: it would be difficult for me to expand my horizons beyond what i already have :)
17:23:41 <elliott> Vorpal: maybe gimme a journal subscription
17:23:52 <Vorpal> elliott, journal? what journal?
17:24:10 <Vorpal> and how could I possibly give you a subscription...
17:24:31 <elliott> Vorpal: i dunno, wherever all this interesting stuff gets published. "computer systems" journals i guess. except only backissues, they probably have crap in them nowadays. also CS for the heck of it, why not, maybe there'll be something relevant in there. also computer graphics, there were a lot of UI papers published in them way back
17:24:49 <elliott> Vorpal: I just meant if one wants to expand my horizons further, one would have to give me a journal subscription to achieve this :P
17:25:14 <Vorpal> elliott, so wait until you start studying at a university. Then use their access for it
17:25:38 <elliott> Vorpal: like i'll have the time /then/
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17:51:44 <fizzie> ACM Digital Library, which equals quite an impressive pile of journals, is just $200/year. ($42/year for "students", but that's >= high school.)
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17:53:42 <oklopol> elliott: if you had the patience to do things in batch mode, i could always dl you stuff.
17:53:56 <oklopol> (but you have to wait for me to be online)
17:54:39 <elliott> oklopol: i could always just google to find specific ones :P
17:54:42 <elliott> oklopol: i just meant like
17:54:50 <oklopol> i don't have access to everything, but most CS stuff at least
17:54:53 <elliott> a huge list of old papers in random obscure vaguely systems-related journals
17:54:59 <elliott> well, and non-obscure, but still
17:55:09 <oklopol> yeah, given a list, i can dl and send
17:55:11 <elliott> <fizzie> ACM Digital Library, which equals quite an impressive pile of journals, is just $200/year. ($42/year for "students", but that's >= high school.)
17:55:21 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, because... I'm 13 or under and therefore not in high school.
17:55:31 <elliott> fizzie: Thanks for your crushing clarification :P
17:55:35 <elliott> oklopol: ok here's the list
17:55:50 <elliott> oklopol: (by a huge list i meant i wanted access to a huge list, not i wanted huge-list-in-papers-out)
17:56:21 <oklopol> that's harder because i do have to dl things manually
17:56:40 <oklopol> i can give you all the stuff i've read for instance, but i doubt that'll interest you much
17:58:09 <oklopol> at least it's mostly cs tho
17:58:21 <elliott> oklopol: i thought you'd given up on cs crap
17:58:47 <oklopol> well. cs includes a lot of interesting math. the math i do is considered cs in most unis
17:59:06 <elliott> oklopol: well i have never paid attention to your ramblings so
17:59:11 <elliott> i have no idea what you've studied :)
17:59:14 <oklopol> my interests are rather more mathematical than most people's in our group tho
17:59:32 <oklopol> our group being the group at uni i mean
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18:01:47 <fizzie> The ACM journals are pretty well browsable even without access -- you get abstracts and all that fluff. So you could just collect interesting things from there and then send that to the oklopol batch download service.
18:02:11 <oklopol> that was actually what i thought might happen, but didn't realize elliott might not even know that
18:02:26 <elliott> i mean i'm just lazy and stuff
18:02:50 <elliott> ideally i wouldn't even have to care about the journals, I'd just have a huge html page with tens/hundreds of thousands of papers from 1960 to today
18:02:53 <oklopol> the laziness is why i figured you might not actually ever read anything if you had to go through oklobatch
18:03:23 <oklopol> maybe i should give you access my university account
18:03:34 <elliott> that would be an excellent idea! i see no possible issues whatsoever.
18:04:07 <oklopol> fizzie: what's your official status at uni
18:04:26 <elliott> he just turns up every day
18:04:29 <elliott> eats some of the food without paying
18:04:34 <elliott> nobody has the heart to kick him out
18:04:43 <elliott> also he usually sleeps there too
18:04:53 <oklopol> i'm applying for tohtorikoulutettava tomorrow, they changed assistentti to that, but apparently i can still apply for it even though i'm just starting my master's
18:05:02 <oklopol> i don't know if these have the same meanings there but i assume so
18:05:03 <elliott> tothorthortoajrothoaohrotirtioartjiorjvwuerto
18:05:18 <oklopol> surely you know what tohtori is
18:06:00 <elliott> c'mon HackEgo, i believe in you
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18:06:19 <elliott> `wl fi tohtorikoulutettava
18:06:20 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
18:06:30 <elliott> oklopol applied to have his hovercraft filled with eels
18:06:43 <olsner> if I had a hovercraft I would also apply!
18:07:48 <fizzie> oklopol: I don't know, really; my payment receipts just read "Researcher", but that's just work-wise.
18:08:03 <fizzie> It used to be "Research assistant" before graduating, though.
18:08:44 <oklopol> assistentti has to do shit like supervise exams
18:09:37 <oklopol> researchers are much cooler
18:09:42 <oklopol> they can just chill around
18:10:01 <elliott> can i pay someone to convert the elisp in http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~psilord/blog/28.html to work with some less ugly scheme
18:11:44 <fizzie> oklopol: Actually with our conversion to Wave University, they also mandated 56 (or so) hours per year of "teaching duties" also to all us non-teaching research personnel.
18:12:17 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais523\unfoog.
18:12:23 <oklopol> 56 hours per year isn't a very huge amount tho
18:12:32 <fizzie> 3.5% of the yearly 1600 hours.
18:13:31 <oklopol> so every hour of every day, you'll be teaching for about 136 seconds
18:13:47 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: don't, that just reminds me of Worms, where you can get kicked out of a casual /online game
18:13:53 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: don't, that just reminds me of Worms, where you can get kicked out of a casual online game just because you're not in a clan
18:13:59 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: (or even just because you don't put a clan in your nick)
18:14:07 <ais523\unfoog> well, I can't have different nicks in different channels
18:14:07 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: is this in #nethack or elsewhere? i wanna watch (is it on NAO?)
18:14:14 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: I mean don't as in <ais523\unfoog> we take clan membership very seriously
18:14:22 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: as in, don't say that :)
18:15:01 <ais523\unfoog> they don't have watching facilities themselves for various reasons, but several people are termcasting their games
18:15:35 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: what are the various reasons? also, I was joking too
18:15:47 <elliott> not sure which sounds more retro
18:15:57 <elliott> hmm, clearly they're not termcasting on termcast.org
18:16:12 <ais523\unfoog> they are, although there might not be too many people playing right now, and not everyone termcasts
18:16:37 <ais523\unfoog> MarvinTV is from the tournament, but I think it's recorded rather than live
18:16:47 <ais523\unfoog> apart from that, there don't seem to be many active games; normally there are 3 or 4 more than that
18:17:20 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: have you played yet? i guess not if you just changed your nick
18:17:39 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: indeed, I have, I already have an ascension
18:17:49 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: what, in one day?
18:17:54 <elliott> (note: I have no idea how long the tournament lasts)
18:18:10 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: well that's less impressive then :-P
18:18:13 <elliott> ok, three days is pretty impressive
18:18:23 <ais523\unfoog> it's pretty much exactly median for wins tournament
18:18:35 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: you have to remember that i'm terrible
18:18:45 <elliott> I would be interested in a recording but I don't care greatly.
18:19:43 <oklopol> hmm, my brainreader has arrived, unfortunately i don't know where the post office it's in is
18:20:22 <olsner> I think it's in finland
18:21:17 <elliott> i like how blasé oklopol is about this :)
18:21:32 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: get one = ascension? or recording?
18:21:35 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: also, what kind of a name is "unfoog"?
18:22:07 <ais523\unfoog> but I met the unfoog people last year (when I was running my own clan that did pretty well), and was very impressed by them
18:22:56 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: you are all completely crazy
18:23:57 <ais523\unfoog> TODO: find a naming system for my recordings that doesn't sort by day of the week
18:24:24 <oklopol> elliott: i have nothing between indifferent about X and incredibly hyper about X, and brainreading is not today's thing.
18:24:50 <oklopol> well, actually sleeping removed that, so hopefully today will have multiple things
18:25:05 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: gamenumber-YYYY-MM-DD-HH-MM?
18:25:08 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: where gamenumber is sequential
18:25:13 <elliott> and, say, zero-padded to five digits
18:25:13 <olsner> oklopol: MULTIPLE THINGS? IN ONE DAY?
18:25:28 <ais523\unfoog> but my recording script that I set up in a hurry sets the filename to the literal output of date(1)
18:25:49 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: well, in this case "00341-2010-11-18-18-24.ttyrec" would be if you started playing your 341st right now
18:25:56 <elliott> (you might have played it previously, too)
18:25:58 <elliott> admittedly, it is a bit ugly
18:26:08 <ais523\unfoog> also, it's hard for the script to know which file belongs to which game
18:26:11 <elliott> perhaps 00341_2010-11-18_18-24.ttyrec
18:26:18 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: well, you only ever have one game at a time going on, right?
18:26:26 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: so just have ~/nethack/game be a file with a number in
18:26:40 <elliott> "n=$(cat ~/nethack/game); echo $((n+1) >~/nethack/game"
18:26:49 <oklopol> how does a nethack tournament work
18:27:06 <oklopol> and was nethack the huge rogue, or was that adom
18:27:13 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: unfortunately, that seems not to be the case
18:27:17 <elliott> oklopol: well both are roguelikes
18:27:22 <ais523\unfoog> and one game can be split across multiple recordings
18:27:23 <oklopol> yeah but which one is huge
18:27:29 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: what seems not to be the case?
18:27:44 <elliott> oklopol: nethack doesn't have like hundreds of levels
18:27:57 <oklopol> i thought one of them had about a million times more of everything
18:28:00 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: well, if you don't, you're defying nethack(1)'s wishes :)
18:28:20 <elliott> oklopol: presumably, a nethack tournament works by everyone playing nethack
18:28:25 <elliott> and whoever gets the most points wins or wahtever
18:29:09 <olsner> oh, but it *is* multiplayer since there are several players playing the game
18:29:10 <oklopol> you'd have to wait for everyone to move
18:29:15 <elliott> oklopol: or just break the game completely
18:29:37 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: oh well, i don't mind
18:29:42 <elliott> oklopol: how about using relativity
18:29:48 <elliott> oklopol: like anyone can move at any time
18:29:51 <elliott> oklopol: and it has all the effects
18:30:01 <elliott> oklopol: but the effects don't propagate to anyone else until they take like N turns
18:30:08 <elliott> oklopol: so if you log back on and somebody's spawned 1000 monsters in your room
18:30:11 <elliott> you have some turns to get out of the room
18:30:14 <elliott> before that becomes "your" world
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18:32:39 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: here's an implementation of cat in awk: "1"
18:32:55 <elliott> even supports multiple files to concatenate!
18:45:07 <elliott> "emacs23-common-non-dfsg" -- debian codeword for "Emacs manual"
18:46:21 <Phantom_Hoover> The non-dfsg means it doesn't comply with their freeness guidelines, doesn't it?
18:46:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes. In this case it is because the Emacs manual is under the GFDL.
18:46:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And uses "invariant sections".
18:46:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Specifically, you are not allowed to distribute the Emacs manual or any work based on it unless you include the GNU manifesto.
18:47:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: This is, of course, non-Free. (rms doesn't seem to care as he's blinded by ideology.)
18:51:36 <cheater99> that Peping guy is following me around channels
18:54:22 <cheater99> <Peping> cheater99: you're on #esolang too :) I remember you
18:54:23 <cheater99> <reisio> kuku: yum search rename.ul
18:54:23 <cheater99> * Peping (~Peping110@fw3.khfree.net) has left ##linux
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19:18:35 <elliott> Gregor: Did you ever get an offline HTML 5 validator running?
19:19:09 <elliott> Gregor: Darn, I want to integrate it with flymake-mode :P
19:19:29 <Gregor> $ cat bin/quickvalidate
19:19:29 <Gregor> if [ ! "$1" ] ; then exit ; fi
19:19:29 <Gregor> curl -F uploaded_file=@"$1" -F output=soap12 http://validator.w3.org/check 2> /dev/null | grep m:validity
19:19:46 <elliott> Gregor: Why that instead of validator.nu? :P
19:19:54 <elliott> Gregor: (Also, lawl @ soap)
19:20:01 <Gregor> Because validator.nu sucks face.
19:20:21 <Gregor> IIRC, I couldn't find an interface that returned something slightly more greppable than arbitrary HTML :P
19:21:09 <elliott> Gregor: In this case I need line and column numbers so's that flymake can ANGRY COLOUR all the bits I got wrong :P
19:23:09 <elliott> Gregor: Here's some relevant WTF of the day: http://rebuildingtheweb.com/en/irresponsible-to-advocate-html5/
19:23:26 <elliott> Gregor: "It's irresponsible to advocate HTML 5 because HTML Tidy breaks pages that use new features of HTML 5."
19:23:50 <elliott> Gregor: haha, wow, grep /HTML5/ http://rebuildingtheweb.com/en/
19:23:54 <elliott> Gregor: This guy REALLY hates HTML 5 :P
19:23:59 <elliott> "Will HTML5 make the Web even more invalid?"
19:24:05 <elliott> "Why is the HTML specification a failure?"
19:24:23 <Gregor> "Will HTML5 rape my wife? My kids? My husband? 'cuz it's rapin' everybody out here."
19:24:38 <elliott> "So it's not existing authoring tools that must support HTML5 (which is impossible), it's HTML5 that must support existing authoring tools!"
19:24:53 <elliott> I remember when XHTML 1.0 came out, and every authoring tool worked withi t.
19:25:09 <elliott> 'cuz they were so careful not to introduce backwards-incompatible changes like /> for self-closing elements.
19:26:48 <Gregor> elliott: How's your kitten?
19:27:00 <cheater99> heheh: man wget | grep -A 17 '^\s*\-\-random-wait'
19:27:16 <elliott> Gregor: Progressing well, actually, you NAYSAYER (okay, so you might not actually be a naysayer).
19:27:29 <elliott> Gregor: I'm working on the service manager, and got a dietlibc/pcc toolchain.
19:27:40 <elliott> Gregor: Fully bootstrapped, that is: dietlibc built by pcc, pcc built by pcc and linked with dietlibc.
19:27:56 <elliott> Gregor: And I only had to patch both dietlibc and pcc to do it! :P
19:28:10 <elliott> Although to be fair, the pcc one was a bug. (expecting malloc(0) to point to something)
19:28:11 <Gregor> I legitimately would like to see a (almost-)no-GNU-Linux, but that doesn't mean I'd use it :P
19:28:42 <elliott> Gregor: The "woop, give me X11 and some stuff" installation will probably include GNU Emacs :P
19:28:55 <elliott> Gregor: BUT THAT DOESN'T MATTER because who wants that anyway, just use the base install.
19:28:57 <Gregor> Fine fine, but I just mean in the basic functional core.
19:29:15 <Gregor> Basically coreutils and below should be Free-free.
19:29:15 <elliott> Gregor: Well, I don't know how to avoid GNU binutils.
19:29:29 <elliott> Oh, well coreutils and below doesn't include development.
19:29:42 <elliott> Gregor: BSD-licensed software is Free too, and I'm not avoiding the GPL :P
19:30:02 <elliott> Gregor: Well... lessee: Linux, dietlibc, busybox.
19:30:11 <elliott> Gregor: Assuming busybox links with dietlibc... tada, coreutils and below free of free.
19:30:15 <elliott> Gregor: Hell, busybox even includes dpkg!
19:30:24 <elliott> And HOLY FUCK IT'S SO BLOATED.
19:31:42 * Gregor drums his fingers trying to think of a binutils replacement.
19:31:49 <Gregor> That's a bizarre thing to be irreplaceable.
19:31:58 <elliott> Gregor: I could use Drepper's unreleased elf-utils!!1111 (no)
19:32:30 <elliott> Gregor: I think you have made an error there... either you missed a full stop... or gasm is actually called "gas".
19:32:41 <elliott> Gregor: (Damn you for making me take that long to figure out a sentence with "or gasm" in it X-P)
19:32:46 <Gregor> Yes, it's "gas", but that joke isn't as funny as "gasm" :P
19:32:56 <elliott> Gregor: I say, I say, that's a joke, son.
19:33:19 <elliott> Gregor: Well let's see, the only parts of binutils we REAAAAAAAAALLY need are as, ld and ar.
19:33:27 <elliott> Everything else... like say nm and strip... are just niceties.
19:33:47 <elliott> Gregor: I'm sure there's gotta be a non-GNU ld. (Does gold count? It's part of binutils but was written at Google :P)
19:33:52 <elliott> Gregor: ar isn't difficult.
19:34:02 <elliott> And as there are others, but none that support the retarded AT&T syntax.
19:35:36 <Gregor> Yeah, ar and ld should be easily-replaceable, and AT&T syntax rawx my sawx, and GCC supports Intel syntax as a backend so lawl, and maybe there's an at&t->intel converter that doesn't suck?, and blarf.
19:36:50 <fizzie> AT&T: Advanced Tungeons & Tragons.
19:37:07 <elliott> Gregor: Please tell me that rawx my sawx is sarcastic :P
19:38:39 <Vorpal> elliott, a lot of stuff wants strip
19:38:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Here's my implementation of strip:
19:39:26 <fizzie> "The optimized strip."
19:39:42 <Vorpal> elliott, but don't you love stripping debug symbols to separate symbol files?
19:40:00 <elliott> fizzie: Okay, here's my new strip:
19:40:23 <fizzie> What, not the tiny-elf true?-)
19:40:40 <elliott> Blargh all the multiple major modes things in Emacs are PAIN to use.
19:41:11 <Vorpal> elliott, that way the kernel will know they are the same and won't need to cache the same code twice
19:41:17 <elliott> Vorpal: Dude, do you have any idea how slow following symlinks is???
19:41:22 <elliott> Vorpal: ln /bin/true strip
19:41:27 <Vorpal> elliott, okay hardlink it then
19:41:54 <Vorpal> only works on same partition though
19:41:57 <fizzie> "Why did your system break when I put my /usr on a separate partition?" "Oh, our /usr/bin/strip is a hardlink to /bin."
19:42:19 <Vorpal> and no one sane would use same partition for those
19:42:28 <Vorpal> unless you have a tiny disk
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19:42:42 <erclliott> If I'm going to be an Emacs weenie, I have to use ERC, right?
19:42:51 <Vorpal> erclliott, erc is not the only one
19:42:56 <Vorpal> erclliott, there is rice too
19:43:01 <Vorpal> and possibly some more
19:43:07 <Vorpal> erclliott, rice is pretty popular too
19:43:22 <erclliott> Hmm, is there a [C-x o] that goes in the "other direction"?
19:43:39 <erclliott> I'm currently rocking .emacs, #esoteric and *shell* at once and typing C-x o twice sucks :P
19:43:42 <Vorpal> personally I'm switching away from erc. I'm working on my own irc client currently
19:43:58 <Vorpal> erclliott, reason is that I dislike elisp
19:44:39 <Vorpal> erclliott, currently I'm in design phase. And language will be erlang or haskell. Probably erlang since network stuff seems easier than in haskell
19:44:56 <erclliott> Vorpal: Networking is easy in Haskell... it has sockets.
19:45:07 <erclliott> Vorpal: Anyway, you should just use *my* client instead; it's perfect and all.
19:45:17 <Vorpal> erclliott, true. But compared to the nice abstraction erlang uses I meant
19:45:20 <erclliott> Vorpal: BTW, you can write a non-elisp program and still have an elisp interface pretty easily.
19:45:24 <Vorpal> erclliott, as for UI: not sure yet
19:45:43 <erclliott> Vorpal: Read s-expressions on stdin, print out s-expressions on stdout; don't need to be complicated. Then just write the UI in elisp, which is less painful than writing the whole client like that.
19:45:46 <Vorpal> erclliott, possibly gtk. Possibly tk. Possibly ncurses.
19:46:02 <erclliott> Vorpal: If you use Tk, you'll have a hard time doing it in C.
19:46:06 <erclliott> You'd probably have to write the GUI in Tcl.
19:46:10 <Vorpal> erclliott, why would I use C?
19:46:16 <Vorpal> erclliott, erlang have Tk bindings
19:46:22 <erclliott> Vorpal: Does it have Tile bindings?
19:46:27 <erclliott> Vorpal: Tk still looks like Motif unless you use Tile.
19:46:37 <Vorpal> erclliott, I like the motif look :P
19:46:45 <erclliott> Vorpal: No you don't. I refuse to let you create a program that looks like that.
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19:46:50 <Vorpal> erclliott, I don't really like the wxwidgets bindings of erlang. They look complicated.
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19:47:13 <fizzie> "ERC Version 5.3 - an IRC client for emacs (http://emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/ERC (mailing list: erc-discuss@gnu.org))" -- wow, that's a noisy CTCP version reply.
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19:47:27 <elliott> I like how it leaves its vomited buffers everywhere, too.
19:47:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, your is noisier!
19:47:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, it's three different clients. I just closed the ERC one.
19:47:59 <elliott> Has anyone edited HTML with embedded CSS in Emacs?
19:48:02 <fizzie> But compared to those other three, it was the huge.
19:48:06 <Gregor> My VERSION reply is far more noisy.
19:48:08 <elliott> fizzie: *two clients and a bouncer
19:48:21 <elliott> Gregor: Only 2 gigs of RAM for Windows 8?
19:48:25 <elliott> Gregor: That's rather tightly packed.
19:48:33 <fizzie> elliott: If you want to be such a PEDERANT about it.
19:48:34 <Gregor> Bahahaha, "You are being CTCP flooded from Vorpal, ignoring *!*@unaffiliated/anmaster"
19:48:50 <Vorpal> Gregor, you got one ctcp from me
19:48:58 <Gregor> Vorpal: You mean my client fails :P
19:49:07 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah IRC# 2011 has a lot of bugs.
19:49:11 <elliott> Gregor: Try the 2012 prerelease.
19:49:12 <Vorpal> what is that bip client?
19:49:29 * Gregor logs in on his phone to get another version in there :P
19:49:33 <fizzie> Hm, my xchat doesn't put that uname thing in, it seems; it just says "xchat 2.8.8 Ubuntu".
19:49:36 <Vorpal> elliott, how does it compare to znc feature-wise?
19:49:50 <olsner> Gregor: wait a minute, how can you have more than one client?
19:49:52 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't use it; how should I know? It's an irssi addon thing, I think.
19:50:05 <fizzie> No, bip is not an irssi add-on.
19:50:14 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh, indeed. http://bip.milkypond.org/
19:52:00 <fizzie> It's reasonably featureful; though doing the multi-network thing by just listening to one port and then differentiating based on the password (in a "user:pass:netname" format) is a bit on the strange side, and confuses irssi a bit. (It doesn't/didn't like to connect to identical server:port multiple times.)
19:52:05 <Vorpal> elliott, annoying page. Get invalid security cert notification all the time...
19:53:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, that user/pass/netname is common. znc uses user/pass then one user per network. Personally I would make it pass/netname :P
19:54:06 <Vorpal> elliott, actually my idea for irc client is somewhere in between a bouncer+client and a two-part irc client
19:54:41 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes; I too have had such stupid ideas.
19:54:41 <Gregor> elliott: I'm trying to remember how long ago I added that Microsoft IRC# line to my VERSION :P
19:54:55 <Vorpal> elliott, why do you say that
19:55:06 <elliott> Vorpal: Instant incompatibility with any client other than my own? Of course applying hubris makes these worries disappear :)
19:55:19 <elliott> *sigh* Why does Emacs fail at Luxi Mono so much?
19:55:42 <elliott> Vorpal: I did get a wonderful half-way solution.
19:56:16 <elliott> Vorpal: I modified the OS X client LimeChat so that the messages that come in from my bouncer looked "normal"; I parsed the times off the end and made the client think they came in at that time, and also prettified the "starting/ending playback" messages so they looked like client messages.
19:56:20 <Vorpal> elliott, but then I intend to run both on same computer and just make use of this (if I go with gtk gui or such) to not have to restart the thing if I restart X
19:56:23 <elliott> Vorpal: That was nice; just looked like extra scrollback and copied properly too.
19:56:44 <Vorpal> elliott, those are nice features of this system indeed
19:56:53 <elliott> Vorpal: You could base your client on ii (http://tools.suckless.org/ii/).
19:56:55 <Vorpal> elliott, still somewhat messy to do
19:57:05 <elliott> Vorpal: That way you could just write a GUI on top of some simple filesystem manipulations.
19:57:05 <Vorpal> elliott, uh you know, I don't think I want that style of client :P
19:57:08 <elliott> Vorpal: That way you could just write a GUI on top of some simple filesystem manipulations.
19:57:18 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm just saying that it's easier than implementing the protocol from scratch.
19:57:20 <Vorpal> elliott, hm also from what I remember it doesn't support advanced irc networks very well
19:57:36 <Vorpal> elliott, multi-target msg?
19:57:45 <elliott> Why would you even do that x_x
19:58:17 <Vorpal> elliott, why would anyone ever want multicast...
19:58:31 <elliott> That is not even remotely the same thing as multicast.
19:58:54 <Vorpal> elliott, it is. multicast over irc. Though done through the spanning tree point-to-point connections
19:59:12 <elliott> Vorpal: If you're messaging less than 10 channels, it doesn't really matter, and you can implement it at UI-level.
19:59:18 <elliott> Vorpal: If you're messaging more than 10 channels, stop spamming everyone
19:59:42 <Vorpal> elliott, mostly private /msg. And to inform a group of people about things.
20:00:01 <Vorpal> elliott, also I don't remember it supporting getting server log notices in a nice way
20:00:10 <elliott> Vorpal: Fine, write your own client :P
20:00:17 <Vorpal> so yeah I will implement protocol from scratch. It is a trivial protocol anyway
20:00:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Just expose a filesystem interface the same; suddenly scripting is a lot less painful and can be done from any language.
20:00:25 <elliott> Well, any language that has file access.
20:00:42 <Vorpal> elliott, probably I will do that
20:00:54 <elliott> Vorpal: And if it's based on FUSE I will kill you :P
20:01:01 <Vorpal> elliott, anything wrong with fuse?
20:01:11 <Vorpal> elliott, I would probably just create fifos and open them
20:01:35 <Vorpal> and would probably be annoying in erlang
20:01:43 <elliott> Vorpal: Although surely the channel log should be a regular file, rather than a FIFO.
20:02:12 <Vorpal> while fifos would be like a native C function to wrap mkfifo (unless it has it in the file module already, I don't think it does, but not sure)
20:02:23 <Vorpal> elliott, the bouncer part of the client will handle logging :P
20:02:54 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm pretty sure I will do a two-part client but with a protocol very similar to the standard one
20:03:05 <Vorpal> just some markers for log playback and such
20:03:20 <Vorpal> which will do nothing in other clients
20:03:27 <Vorpal> (due to how I would implement it)
20:04:39 <elliott> Vorpal: Just write a bouncer :P
20:04:54 <elliott> Vorpal: The bouncer part should handle the FS stuff too, duh.
20:05:01 <Vorpal> elliott, well obviously
20:05:12 <elliott> Vorpal: And by "channel log" I just meant "file with the scrollback in" :P
20:05:40 <Vorpal> I have a lot file format already and tools to parse it
20:05:47 <Vorpal> I will thus use the same
20:06:04 <elliott> Vorpal: Good thing it's worse than my client, then.
20:06:30 <Vorpal> elliott, well it will be custom made for me. I doubt you would like it
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20:33:26 <elliott> Are there any zany fvwm users here?
20:34:59 <elliott> Vorpal: Have you *seen* how flexible fvwm is? Have you *seen* how 90s every fvwm configuration ever is? :)
20:36:15 <Vorpal> elliott, no I haven't checked the configs :P
20:36:25 <Vorpal> but yes I remember seeing screenshots looking like 90s
20:36:47 <ais523> hi elliott; switched to wired as wireless wasn't working
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20:38:35 <elliott\funoog> Vorpal: http://ompldr.org/vNjgwbA, through the door on the right: http://ompldr.org/vNjgwbw
20:38:41 <elliott\funoog> specifically the last one is the impressive one, but it makes no sense without the former
20:39:16 <Vorpal> elliott\funoog, I have long stairs like that too?
20:39:37 <Vorpal> elliott\funoog, just had no clue you would be impressed by them
20:40:10 <Vorpal> elliott\funoog, well I have straight stairs from bedrock to sea level in one place
20:40:38 <Vorpal> elliott\funoog, or actually: just below sea level. then some ladders to keep the water out :D
20:40:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, it's at 60 blocks down right now; getting to the bedrock will be trivial
20:40:43 <elliott\funoog> ais523\unfoog: what use does anyone have for real life?
20:40:56 <elliott\funoog> Vorpal: do one from the absolute top of the map to bedrock
20:40:58 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it anything interesting on your way down?
20:41:14 <Vorpal> elliott\funoog, too much work. Better to do a boatlevator then :P
20:41:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, just mud, rock and the occasional coal and iron ore seam.
20:41:22 <Vorpal> elliott\funoog, I generally do that for vertical transport nowdays
20:41:38 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, nice. Lucky you didn't hit a lava lake then
20:42:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, expand horizontally outwards around, say, 17-20 tiles up if you want to run a chance/risk of hitting caverns
20:42:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Although the Law Of Dramatic Irony dictates that the last step will hit a lava lake.
20:42:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, lava maybe. Lava lake would be at 8-16 iirc
20:42:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Fortunately, this shelter is near the spawn point, and fairly easy to spot.
20:43:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and I hope you stored away most of your inventory in those chests
20:43:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, for extra self sufficiency farm wheat and trees indoors
20:43:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, early game then
20:44:21 <fizzie> I started my first single-player staircase mine with a staircase 8 blocks wide, and 5 blocks high: that's 40 blocks of stone to remove for each step down.
20:44:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, after a while you will have a room full of double chests. With signs like "dirt" "cobblestone" and so on
20:44:43 <fizzie> It only goes down a 20 blocks or so, though, since I hit a cavern structure at that point.
20:44:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, I generally do 2 wide and 3 high
20:45:08 <Vorpal> depends on if I plan to add stairs
20:45:38 <fizzie> It feels like I keep banging my head to the roof if it's less than 5 and going down.
20:45:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm that must have taken quite a bit of rock. for those stairs
20:46:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, indeed. And it actually slows you down. I timed
20:46:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, because you do hit the remote side
20:46:32 <fizzie> Stairs are cheap, it's 6 blocks of stone to four stair-blocks.
20:46:44 <Phantom_Hoover> I maxed the stair count, then went backwards lining the shaft.
20:46:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, steps are 3->3 right?
20:47:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, so technically they are cheaper
20:47:47 <fizzie> The to-bedrock staircase I have in the multiplayer game is 3 wide and 6 high; that's 18 blocks per single level of descent.
20:48:37 <elliott\funoog> What kind of pickaxes do you guys have that that isn't hideously tedious? :P
20:49:08 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/subtree10.png
20:49:26 <Phantom_Hoover> I've used two irons, but I am innately stingy with resources.
20:49:46 <fizzie> I use stone too, except that in multiplayer I use diamond, since they don't have durability tracking.
20:50:16 <fizzie> I only take up the iron pick when there's gold/diamonds/redstone to pick up.
20:50:34 <elliott\funoog> Are they significantly less tedious to use than the wood ones?
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20:51:21 <fizzie> Well, you need at least stone to get iron or anything out, don't you?
20:52:06 <fizzie> And, well, it's not like there's actually any reason not to use stone, it's not like you're going to run out of it.
20:52:13 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/subtree11.png
20:52:18 <fizzie> There's a bit of stone there.
20:52:20 <elliott\funoog> fizzie: Note that I've never actually come into possession of stone as far as I know.
20:52:25 <Vorpal> <elliott\funoog> What kind of pickaxes do you guys have that that isn't hideously tedious? :P <-- stone, iron and diamond are the ones I use
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20:52:30 <Vorpal> depends on what I'm cutting through
20:52:33 <fizzie> Cobblestone makes pickaxen.
20:52:51 <elliott> fizzie: I never see much cobblestone.
20:53:05 <fizzie> Stone turns into cobblestone when you axe it.
20:53:06 <Vorpal> elliott, you get cobblestone from picking stone
20:53:13 <elliott> "There is a L shape on the Cobblestone's default skin that always point at the north as illustrated there. It's very useful to find your way especially in The Nether, where Compasses don't work."
20:53:27 <fizzie> Even with the wooden one.
20:53:36 <fizzie> (Otherwise it'd be pretty hard to get started.)
20:53:44 <Vorpal> you can get stone back by smelting cobblestone, not that that makes much sense
20:53:59 <fizzie> I've smelted quite a lot of stone, since I built that house out of it.
20:54:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, elliott: http://sprunge.us/dQfW
20:54:28 <elliott> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> [...] I'm just widening the shaft to be 4x2 or so.
20:54:41 <HackEgo> 261|<Phantom_Hoover> [...] I'm just widening the shaft to be 4x2 or so.
20:54:59 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: that isn't particularly funny or interesting
20:55:11 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: therefore, it fits perfectly in with the rest of HackEgo's quote database
20:55:24 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: you were claiming to me a while ago that it was mostly funny/interesting
20:55:31 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: I was lying through my teeth
20:56:02 <HackEgo> 126|<Warrigal> Ah, vulva. <Warrigal> What is that, anyway?
20:56:13 <HackEgo> 113|<xan> if you watch jaws backwards it's a movie about a giant shark that throws up so many people they have to open a beach
20:56:16 <HackEgo> 72|<ehird> ignore me, i'm full of bullshit
20:56:19 <HackEgo> 76|<Sgeo_> I had an idea for an AskReddit, but I forgot
20:56:20 <HackEgo> 207|<fungot> pikhq: it was fragrant with the scent of abomination. hear a speech declaring a holy war, is the man insane? some idiot missionary gets himself killed, some man writes some gibberish about the shape of a dragon, wonse?"
20:56:32 <elliott> [[it was fragrant with the scent of abomination. hear a speech declaring a holy war, is the man insane? some idiot missionary gets himself killed, some man writes some gibberish about the shape of a dragon, wonse?]]
20:56:32 <HackEgo> 224|<fizzie> It's like mathematicians, where the next step up from "trivial" is "open research question". <fizzie> "Nope... No...This problem can't be done AT ALL. This one--maybe, but only with two yaks and a sherpa. ..."
20:56:34 <elliott> I hope that isn't literal.
20:56:42 <HackEgo> 77|<ehird> no Deewiant <Deewiant> No?! <Deewiant> I've been living a lie <ehird> yep. <Deewiant> Excuse me while I jump out of the window ->
20:56:48 <HackEgo> 91|<oklopol> actually just ate some of the dog food because i didn't have any human food... after a while they start tasting like porridge
20:56:54 <HackEgo> 75|* ehird disables javascript
20:57:04 <HackEgo> 96|<fax> im the worst person in the world
20:57:18 <HackEgo> 185|<AnMaster> oerjan, can you ever get any number higher than 3 at the start of "ordinary" [look-and-say sequences]? <ais523> it's not clear from the RFCs
20:57:20 <fizzie> elliott: I don't even know which style it's from.
20:57:25 <HackEgo> 225|<Vorpal> alise, it works fine for irc but interactive stuff? no.
20:57:30 <HackEgo> 112|<Dylan> Warrigal is the Harlem Globe Frotter
20:57:31 <elliott> fizzie: Easy way to find out!!*
20:57:39 <HackEgo> 138|<ais523> so a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.com might be self-relative, but a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com always means a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com.?
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20:57:47 <HackEgo> 83|<Madelon> yay fire! * Madelon combusts spontaneously.
20:57:49 <HackEgo> 51|* Dylan devides by Zorro
20:57:50 <HackEgo> 114|<Eeyore> I used to have salt licks for my horses. They would make cool abstract sculptures with them.
20:57:51 <HackEgo> 125|Note that quote number 124 is not actually true.
20:57:52 <fizzie> Well, I could grep the token files for rare words.
20:57:53 <oklopol> elliott: please stop spamming
20:57:57 <HackEgo> 8|<Warrigal> GKennethR: he should be told that you should always ask someone before killing them.
20:58:06 <elliott> oklopol: please stop spamming
20:58:06 <HackEgo> 49|<ehird> is there a problem with it being carbonized :D <augur> yes: carbonized coffee bean is known more commonly as "charcoal"
20:58:11 <HackEgo> 188|<fungot> CakeProphet: reading herbert might be enlightening in one hand he held a long worm can be greased. twice i got it nearly there, and the protector of cattle. mars is also mentioned as a rainbow. as a seated baboon sometimes with its head.
20:58:11 <HackEgo> 123|[Warrigal] `addquote <Dylan> hahaha, Lawlabee is running windows <Lawlabee> 'cuz it's pretty awesome. [Lawlabee] Warrigal: :(
20:58:14 <HackEgo> 121|<fedoragirl> My mascot is a tree of broccoli.
20:58:17 <fizzie> Apparently abomination exists in {discworld,europarl,irc,jargon,lovecraft,speeches,ss,youtube}, though.
20:58:19 <HackEgo> 174|<fungot> [...] i'm a law student so i am loving my bread machine
20:58:26 <elliott> Law students are great fans of bread machines.
20:58:47 <oklopol> that's not what i was thinking
20:58:48 <Vorpal> you *can* use /msg to it
20:58:56 <oklopol> yeah but then other's can't see it
20:59:10 <oklopol> i've have to paste everything here anyway
20:59:19 <fizzie> The word "wonse" is in ct and discworld, and it doesn't sound like literal either, definitely not ct.
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21:36:42 <olsner> ah, another filler episode
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21:37:10 <olsner> same shit as last time :) naruto shippuuden
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21:38:14 <elliott> my .emacs is exactly 100 lines
21:38:14 <Vorpal> elliott, http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/minecraft/world1.png http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/minecraft/world2.png
21:38:31 <elliott> Vorpal: which one is your main world?
21:38:48 <Vorpal> elliott, well, both. I have the largest boatlevator in world2
21:39:02 <Vorpal> elliott, world2 I play on easy rather than peaceful
21:39:20 <Vorpal> elliott, also it is all post-halloween mapgen
21:39:25 <elliott> Vorpal: meanwhile, in my exasperation at being unable to find ANY DAMN COAL AT ALL, I dug a 2x2 square into a cave and then repeated.
21:39:27 <Vorpal> which makes for a less jarring map
21:39:33 <elliott> I then boarded up the end I came in when it started getting dark.
21:39:40 <elliott> I am not sure if it is night or day. :P
21:39:51 <fizzie> The torch-based route-marking makes for nice maps, that's for sure.
21:40:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, and easy to find your paths too
21:40:37 <fizzie> I'd like the reappearing-block bug fixed for multiplayer, could get back to that at some point then.
21:40:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, the extremely straight lines of torches in map 1 is for surveying
21:41:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, to be specific surveying path for minecart transit system
21:41:19 <Vorpal> as in, what does it do
21:41:40 <fizzie> Multiplayer game blocks tend to reappear after mining, often takes at least two attempts to finally actually get rid of a block.
21:41:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, do you get dropped stuff every time?
21:42:09 <elliott> Vorpal: how deep is this tunnel???
21:42:20 <Vorpal> elliott, which one? for mine carts?
21:42:41 <Vorpal> elliott, how would I know how deep stuff is in *your* game?
21:42:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: I couldn't really tell; probably not.
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21:43:46 <elliott> aha, this looks like the end
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21:44:31 <Vorpal> elliott, why not go back the way you came?
21:44:44 <elliott> Vorpal: i don't get why that's no issue
21:44:48 <elliott> i've dug all the way through
21:45:03 <Vorpal> elliott, also get a lock. (1 redstone, 4 gold ingots)
21:45:29 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah, SO not at that stage yet :P
21:45:31 <Vorpal> or use a timer, set it to 10 minutes when you see the sun set
21:45:54 <elliott> Remember, this was driven by there being NO COAL AT ALL outside.
21:45:59 <elliott> I got exactly one piece of coal before entering.
21:46:06 <elliott> I now have 13, which is fewer than I'd like.
21:46:42 <Vorpal> I have... uh... which chest? :D
21:46:44 <elliott> I appear to have misplaced the entrance to my holyfuck tunnel :P
21:46:53 <fizzie> 13 coal already makes for 52 torches; that's not too shabby.
21:47:10 <Vorpal> some 500+ in various chests
21:47:25 <elliott> Only I can dig all night and then forget where the tunnel is :P
21:47:43 <fizzie> The single-player box here has 219 pieces of coal too, but it's not like I could send that anywhere.
21:47:44 <Vorpal> elliott, that is why you use torches to mark your path
21:48:00 <elliott> Vorpal: I've moved maybe 10 blocks away.
21:48:04 <fizzie> Notch has tweeted that multiplayer will have portals that send people to different ip:ports.
21:48:26 <elliott> Can any of those mapping things show me torches underground?
21:48:38 <Vorpal> 3 in a straight line on a wall next to an opening = to exit (used in caverns when you have ambiguous branches or a quite well hidden passage)
21:49:48 <Vorpal> 3 in a straight line on the floor across your path "dead end/exit is VERY well hidden to one of the sides around here, look for 3 torches on some wall"
21:50:19 <fizzie> 5 in a pentagram: about to summon Cthulhu real soon.
21:50:31 <Vorpal> this breaks down sometimes. Mostly when you find out that cavern 1, cavern 2 are connected
21:50:57 <Vorpal> but the torch system saves wood
21:51:04 <Vorpal> and also it lights up your path
21:51:12 <Vorpal> plus it stacks in inventory
21:51:22 <fizzie> Won't (light up permanently) for long, though.
21:51:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, old torches will be converted
21:51:59 <fizzie> Probably a good idea to build 512 or so torches before updating. :p
21:52:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, and if the lightstone speculations are accurate: I have tons of it by now
21:52:30 <fizzie> Well, it's pretty easy to find in Nether.
21:52:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, also what about the jack-o-lantern
21:52:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, a bit hard to reach though.
21:52:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw I have a nether panorama mostly done
21:53:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, you can't see all the remote walls on far in that cavern
21:53:22 <fizzie> As you probably saw from the screenshot file names, I call that underground tree "subtree"; can't help smiling whenever I think of it. I put a "<-- TO THE SUBTREE" sign at the bottom of that from-max-altitude-to-bedrock shaft, since there's multiple exits at the bottom.
21:53:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, you did that just now or?
21:54:24 <fizzie> Well, few hours ago while looking at something else, but still.
21:54:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, also that server you play on. Private you said. What group is invited there?
21:54:43 <elliott> Woo! I've dug myself my first real home.
21:55:12 <fizzie> You'd have to ask ineiros about that, it's his box. Not that I think he follows this channel especially well.
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21:55:24 <fizzie> There's not really anyone there ever, so it's not very "multiplayer" like that.
21:55:33 <Vorpal> elliott, I think a submarine site would be a highly attractive location for fort allotments
21:55:50 <Vorpal> if on the floor of the ocean, monsters wouldn't be much of an issue
21:55:59 <Vorpal> unless notch add marine enemies
21:56:06 <elliott> Vorpal: Why put doors on the outside again?
21:56:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, I just wondered who were the target group
21:56:51 <elliott> fizzie: Vorpal wants in on your subtree fun.
21:56:55 <Vorpal> elliott, I'll let fizzie explain it
21:57:07 <fizzie> I assume it's in Finland, yes.
21:57:16 <Vorpal> elliott, I would like to have a look at that map I have to admit. It looked quite cool.
21:57:32 <Vorpal> elliott, not *on* the outside, *from* the outside :P
21:57:46 <fizzie> If you stomp the door in from the outside, it will get placed to the outer edge, and then you can stand safely behind it and hit enemies.
21:58:03 <ineiros> Indeed, I don't follow this channel very actively.
21:58:06 <fizzie> As opposed to the other way around; having enemies hit you while you stand next to your door.
21:58:08 <Vorpal> elliott, just don't hit your door too much
21:58:10 <elliott> Well, it's too late now -- it's dark outside already.
21:58:19 <elliott> So I'll wait 'till morning to fix it.
21:58:29 <Vorpal> elliott, why did you place it the wrong way? You knew the proper way
21:58:38 <elliott> Vorpal: I forgot, and it was already getting dark at the time.
21:58:41 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, I have TWO doors.
21:58:45 <elliott> Vorpal: Wanna know why? Makeshift window.
21:58:50 <elliott> Don't have the resources to do glass yet.
21:59:20 <elliott> It's unlikely I'll ever get a window, since I'm *nowhere* near a beach.
21:59:30 <fizzie> Vorpal: In the single player game, I have my main structure in the middle of the ocean; started with a 5x5 (well, 7x7 if you count the walls) rectangle, emptied out one level of water with a bucket, built one more level of walls, and so on to the bottom of the sea.
21:59:38 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway presumably you will expand your empire?
21:59:44 <elliott> Vorpal: Sure, but I'm not ready for that quite yet.
21:59:50 <Vorpal> elliott, you seem to start new games all the time
21:59:56 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm going to mine first, using the patented Phantom_Hoover "Door from house to mining shaft" method.
22:00:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Hey, this game I'm actually trying! :p
22:00:10 <fizzie> (Felt pretty silly, emptying the sea with a bucket.)
22:00:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, sounds like a chore. I done that for some deep clay deposits...
22:00:37 <Vorpal> (when diving became impractical)
22:00:43 <Vorpal> and yeah quite a chore
22:00:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, especially with the currents
22:01:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, I would probably start by building from below. Placing reeds or ladders to get air pockets
22:01:30 <fizzie> Yeah, they're a bit annoying. But at least you can "place" a bucketful of water into any "spring" block without having any sort of effect, so it's easy to empty up the bucket.
22:02:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, you can't dump into the ocean? You need to be within "range" of the ground iirc
22:02:09 <Vorpal> or some other block behind the water
22:02:30 <fizzie> Yes, but I had the walls there. It was always just the last water block on each level that I had to carry up.
22:02:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, still having somewhere to stand tends to be a problem
22:03:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, got a screenshot of that structure? If it isn't glass I will be sad ;P
22:03:33 <Vorpal> okay. Still screenshot
22:03:37 <Vorpal> but glass would have been cooler
22:03:39 <fizzie> Oh, and having the tower there in the middle meant that when I removed the single-block cobblestone "pier" I had to get something to start building from -- something like 40 blocks long -- it didn't "fill up" properly, and then I had to fill it bucket by bucket from a 2x2 pond.
22:04:01 <fizzie> I can cover it with glass and then remove the cobblestone at some point. But you're right.
22:04:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, it doesn't fill up if there is water blocks below it indeed. That is to avoid O(n) griefing with O(n²) cleanup
22:05:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, presumably enemies are no issue out there in the ocean?
22:05:59 <elliott> I wish people would stop using the word "griefing".
22:06:13 <Vorpal> elliott, well I just used the term they use on the wiki and so on
22:06:13 <elliott> (1) We have a word for that, it's called "trolling". (2) If it's actually causing you grief, you have issues.
22:06:15 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:06:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah, I know, I just find it irritating.
22:06:23 <Vorpal> elliott, true it is trolling
22:06:38 <Vorpal> elliott, but trolling that messes up your game world
22:06:50 <Vorpal> sure backups, but you can't have minute-by-minute backups
22:07:17 <elliott> Vorpal: If you're on a multiplayer server, the whole point is that it's kinda free-for-all IMO.
22:07:48 <Vorpal> elliott, some servers might have "do not destroy each other stuff intentionally just to troll" rules or such.
22:07:58 <Vorpal> maybe you don't see the point of that though
22:08:45 <Vorpal> elliott, and then trolls/vandals who join can cause a lot of annoyance
22:08:48 <elliott> Vorpal: I like the EVE Online solution for this; "if you don't want shit to happen, build better defences; everything goes". :p
22:09:02 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:09:04 <Vorpal> elliott, well that is easy to get past in minecraft :P
22:09:04 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: you need a pretty well-designed gameworld for that to work properly
22:09:16 <Vorpal> elliott, it is closer to vandalism than trolling in minecraft
22:09:28 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: have you *seen* EVE Online?
22:09:55 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: It's completely real-world, it just happens to take Star Trek as canon. :)
22:10:03 <fizzie> Vorpal: Okay, the starting point of the shaft: http://zem.fi/~fis/thing1.png -- peek inside: http://zem.fi/~fis/thing2.png -- you can sort-of see it in this underwater shot: http://zem.fi/~fis/thing3.png -- and here's the overall structure: http://zem.fi/~fis/thing4.png
22:10:16 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: (Other things it takes as canon: "Everyone has infinite CPU, GPU and memory")
22:10:17 <ais523\unfoog> I should go home, anyway, I procrastinated far too long today and ended up working into the night
22:10:28 <elliott> fizzie: Stop taunting me with your glass and proximity to the beach.
22:10:36 <elliott> fizzie: I'm in the middle of things with no sand and thus no glass.
22:10:46 <fizzie> Should make the underwater tube out of glass though, that's true.
22:10:59 <elliott> Is there any other way to get glass?
22:11:11 <elliott> fizzie: Wait, how come your shaft goes upwards?
22:11:28 * ais523\unfoog logs off before any further memory lapses befall him
22:11:31 -!- ais523\unfoog has quit (Quit: Page closed).
22:11:58 <elliott> fizzie: See http://zem.fi/~fis/thing4.png.
22:11:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, does it go to max alt?
22:12:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, also I see a portal inside. Nice
22:12:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: Not quite yet.
22:12:44 <oklopol> "<elliott> fizzie: Wait, how come your shaft goes upwards?" <<< is this an erection joke
22:12:46 <fizzie> elliott: It's meant to be an observatory tower.
22:13:05 <elliott> oklopol: Well, I didn't explicitly avoid one; blame miners, not me. :P
22:13:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, does it go above the clouds?
22:13:06 <oklopol> "<fizzie> elliott: It's meant to be an observatory tower." <<< how about this then?
22:13:33 <Vorpal> elliott, that was intentional right?
22:13:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, how far down does it go? to the bedrock?
22:15:03 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, it joins my general tunnel system, it doesn't go directly down more than maybe ten blocks under the seafloor.
22:15:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, your tunnel system use minecarts I hope?
22:15:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, any issues with creepers btw?
22:15:43 <fizzie> Well, I've built some amount of tracks, but it's not completely covered. And it's still peaceful. :p
22:17:06 <fizzie> Cows keep going for a swim near there, for some reason: http://zem.fi/~fis/thing5.png -- and the top of the tower is inside the cloud level: http://zem.fi/~fis/thing6.png -- and there's a two blocks wide step-staircase inside, fortunately steps are cheap: http://zem.fi/~fis/thing7.png
22:17:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think peaceful is more fun than non-peaceful btw
22:17:41 <Vorpal> having played one game of each
22:17:56 <fizzie> Well, many people disagree. I guess I'm just weird this way.
22:17:59 <Vorpal> you can focus on building awesome stuff
22:18:23 <fizzie> Probably going to have to play un-peaceful if our benevolent server admin goes that way when server-side health gets implemented. :p
22:18:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, idea before an accident happens: water pool at the bottom of that shaft
22:19:06 <elliott> that laugh was definitely evil
22:19:17 <Vorpal> ineiros, who is your server open to btw?
22:20:01 <fizzie> I've probably screenshotted all the interesting bits already. :p
22:20:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm. Not quite the same as walking around it
22:20:25 <ineiros> Vorpal: I think I could reveal the address for more people.
22:20:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, besides your screenshots are small. And weird aspect ratio
22:20:55 <Vorpal> ineiros, well if Finnish is the language spoken there I wouldn't be of much use (Since I'm from Sweden)
22:21:03 <fizzie> No-one speaks there. :p
22:21:15 <ineiros> Exactly. And it's empty most of the time anyway.
22:21:19 <fizzie> I think it's been approximately thrice that I've happened to be there at the same time as ineiros.
22:21:28 <fizzie> I haven't ever seen the guy who supposedly built the wooden house.
22:21:58 <oklopol> maybe the house was generated there
22:22:11 <Vorpal> also I wonder if it would be as slow as playing over the gbit lan here :P
22:22:19 <fizzie> And my screenshots are weird-shaped because I have that tiling window manager and for some reason tend to keep it only half-screen-sized.
22:23:13 <ineiros> fizzie: It's a friend of mine from the ass of Finland (Turku).
22:23:44 <Vorpal> ineiros, oh and if you see a random string joining starting with BC<some stuff> then it is me. My first choice wasn't available as user name so I used my random string script
22:24:17 <fizzie> If I use a regular-sized aspect ratio, the UI elements get scaled up to hugeness, whereas with the vertical-sorty thing they stay nice and small and don't block the view so much.
22:24:36 * Sgeo dedicates this channel to the memory of a time when the channel wasn't dedicated to the memory of a time when the ...
22:24:58 <fizzie> (I guess it scales based on width or something? Anyway, the scaling seems really weird; sometimes it doesn't want to fill the whole window. Might be an OpenJDK thing, of course.)
22:25:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, huh, what is that thing next to the spawn point. It looks man made. And I didn't know you could place coal ore?
22:25:59 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think it's a lava-trap by ineiros.
22:26:19 <fizzie> Vorpal: (It's filled with crunchy caramel, I mean, lava, that will come open if you break it. If it's the thing I remember.)
22:26:44 <fizzie> And he probably placed coal ore by /give'ing it to himself with the server-admin cheatery.
22:26:46 <ineiros> fizzie: Damn, you spoiled the surprise. :P
22:26:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, err, were does one go from there to see the great sights?
22:26:59 <fizzie> I put some torches to mark the way.
22:27:03 <fizzie> They should start pretty nearby.
22:27:16 <fizzie> Unless someone's taken them out, of course.
22:27:47 <ineiros> Vorpal: I can teleport you directly to fizzie, if you wish.
22:27:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, does it go over the sand?
22:27:56 <Vorpal> ineiros, nah this is more fun
22:28:53 <ineiros> Vorpal: In that case, I could teleport you to my location, which is on the bottom of a large pit quite quite far from the spawn point. :)
22:31:24 <fizzie> ineiros: Come to think of it, I've never even seen your pit. (No, that's not a teleportation request.)
22:32:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:32:45 -!- kar8nga has joined.
22:37:57 <Sgeo> Is it possible to use the ST monad to cheat and give a functional interface to a non-functional data structure?
22:38:48 -!- Hiant has joined.
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22:43:04 * Sgeo decides to get back to learning Scala
22:43:42 <elliott> Sgeo: I'm so sorry that Haskell doesn't let you break the semantics of the language.
22:46:03 <Sgeo> Or maybe I should learn Clojure
22:46:15 <Sgeo> Hey, at least I'd be learning a Lisp, albeit a despised one
22:46:29 <elliott> It's not really much of a Lisp at all.
22:46:54 * Sgeo would also love to know what PH was going on about wrt Clojure designers not realizing that O(log_32 n) = O(ln n)
22:47:36 <elliott> They said that O(log_32 n) != O(log n) "when the algorithm is run on a computer".
22:47:49 <elliott> (Not direct since I'm not gonna look at the logs.)
22:48:03 <Sgeo> "when the algorithm is run on a computer" is just... that just makes it more facepalmy
22:48:07 <elliott> Not all of them were designers of the language.
22:48:11 <elliott> I imagine that statement was not by one of them.
22:48:18 <elliott> Sgeo: But someone who was a developer did agree.
22:48:28 <elliott> Developer of Clojure, that is.
22:49:56 <Sgeo> I still don't quite ... how does one represent one step of an algorithm taking 1ms vs taking 100 years... obviously not in O notation, but...
22:50:44 <elliott> You say "this one takes ~1ms * items in the array" and the other one 100 years.
22:51:12 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that they may not have realized that log_b x = log_c x / log_c b
22:51:21 <Sgeo> (Unless I got that backwards myself)
22:52:09 <Sgeo> Which would make it more of a logarithm comprehension fail than a big O notation comprehension fail
22:53:58 <elliott> Sgeo: Anyway, they agreed that it was true "in theory", just not "in practice".
22:55:05 <elliott> Sgeo: One of them said that in a "perfect mathematical universe" they would be equal.
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22:55:21 <Sgeo> Maybe they just didn't know how to state their intuition that big-O notation doesn't give the whole story
22:57:17 <Sgeo> Maybe they're assuming that by writing down O(log_32 n) instead of O(log n), the difference, while not stricly speaking existing, helps tell a story outside of O notation
22:57:25 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:58:02 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
22:59:47 <elliott> Sgeo: Maybe they're fucking retarded.
23:02:12 -!- Hiant has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]).
23:02:16 <elliott> Vorpal: I haven't figured out this mine shaft thing.
23:04:03 <oklopol> hey this conversation is actually happening
23:04:10 <oklopol> i've been reading a log and feeling sad because i can't comment
23:04:15 <oklopol> but now i can so here goeas
23:04:35 <oklopol> 'O(log_32 n) != O(log n) "when the algorithm is run on a computer".' :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
23:04:45 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
23:04:50 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
23:04:53 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
23:04:56 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
23:04:57 <elliott> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
23:05:00 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
23:05:10 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
23:05:36 <Sgeo> I'm still convinced that they mean that by writing it like that they mean to describe something outside of O notation
23:05:48 <elliott> Sgeo: Because you love defending idiots.
23:05:57 <oklopol> well, yes, surely they have no idea what O means
23:06:32 <elliott> Vorpal: wait never mind the crisis is over i forgot
23:06:38 <elliott> Vorpal: but uh i still don't understand mind shafts
23:06:40 <Vorpal> elliott, also I have an amusing screenshot of fizzie commenting on his custom texture :P
23:06:44 <Vorpal> elliott, will upload it in a bit
23:07:02 <elliott> Vorpal: can you explain the way of the shaft :|
23:07:07 <elliott> i have started digging stairs downwards
23:07:19 <fizzie> (To be honest, I don't quite look that rectangular in real life.)
23:07:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, aww, don't spoil it
23:07:49 <ineiros> 2010-11-19 00:32:18 [INFO] <fizzief> Oh, yes, it does. The chat is pretty rudimentary.
23:07:52 <ineiros> 2010-11-19 00:32:23 [INFO] <fizzief> Right, I made it look a bit more like myself.
23:07:55 <ineiros> 2010-11-19 00:32:35 [INFO] <fizzief> In the "blond hair, mostly black-ish clothing" sense.
23:08:06 <fizzie> ineiros: You're quite a spoiler.
23:08:37 <Sgeo> Is there a notation where constants do make a differ... then you'd probably have to get all fiddly with units
23:08:48 <elliott> no my internal model of fizzie doesn't have blond hair
23:08:49 <Vorpal> okay now I have some coal. Now to get up to the top
23:09:01 <Vorpal> this is tricky to climb to say the least
23:09:03 <elliott> ineiros: can I join the party and kill Vorpal^W^W^W
23:09:15 <elliott> mere MILES away from you guys
23:09:43 <Vorpal> he is in UK. And I have no idea what he would do
23:09:58 <ineiros> Just gave him the address. :)
23:10:18 <Vorpal> ineiros, hope you have backups
23:10:38 <Vorpal> elliott, now I claimed the mountain south of the wood house. Just so you don't think that is free
23:10:46 <elliott> Erm, is there meant to be a huge transparent pa- nope it loaded, eventually.
23:10:46 <Vorpal> there is a nice one over east
23:11:25 <elliott> Now where *are* those torches...
23:11:44 <elliott> Vorpal: What wooden house?
23:12:00 <ineiros> If somebody makes a mess, I can kick them out (and restore from backups); but I'd rather not.
23:12:05 <Vorpal> elliott, the south one
23:12:32 <fizzie> The spawn-point to subtree route is very unclearly marked; I just stuck in some torches to help myself, not for general guidance.
23:12:32 <elliott> Vorpal: Wish I knew which way south was :)
23:14:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, is the map generated pre-halloweeen?
23:15:00 <Vorpal> it doesn't look biomeistic
23:15:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, is getting cloth from sheep broken?
23:16:35 <fizzie> Though based on Notch's tweets, he has it sort-of working and it will be in next patch.
23:16:50 <fizzie> Or at least killing animals on the server.
23:19:17 <elliott> ineiros: So which is more interesting, wherever Vorpal is or that lovely pit? :-)
23:20:15 <ineiros> elliott: Probably the former. The pit is quite deep and rather dull. And I don't know the direction it is in, because I walked there quite a long time.
23:20:17 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm outside interesting area. Building a first small house
23:20:35 <Vorpal> elliott, so just quite empty around me atm. Going to fetch stone
23:20:43 <elliott> Vorpal: Still, closer than I am. :P
23:20:50 <fizzie> There's a "fizzie's temporary hut" near my mountain home. :p
23:21:01 <fizzie> (It has a sign saying that.)
23:21:19 <Sgeo> If I got Minecraft, would you all just run?
23:21:19 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:21:49 <elliott> Sgeo: Well, you don't know the server address. Yet!
23:22:14 <Vorpal> elliott, I'd leave spreading it to the server admin
23:22:38 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah, but ineiros even let *me* in.
23:23:01 <Vorpal> elliott, mysterious are the ways of the server admin
23:23:02 <Sgeo> What, exactly, could a malicious player do?
23:23:12 <Sgeo> Besides make a huge flood
23:23:20 <Vorpal> Sgeo, cause all sorts of issues. flooding lava over stuff that burns
23:23:34 <elliott> Gah, that lava trap is such a tease, with the coal.
23:24:50 <Vorpal> elliott, you opened it?
23:25:22 <Vorpal> elliott, how did you know it was a trap then?
23:25:23 <elliott> Ello there, what's this then. An opening with torches.
23:25:26 <ineiros> elliott: Feel free to. I can always build a better one. :)
23:25:29 <elliott> Vorpal: It was mentioned in here... :P
23:25:57 <elliott> ineiros: Oh, if you *insist*.
23:26:10 <ineiros> I didn't even test if it works.
23:28:01 -!- TLUL has changed nick to TLUL|afk.
23:28:12 <elliott> Anyone who wants to watch me do something really stupid should ask ineiros to teleport to me round about now. :P
23:29:52 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't want to stand near you when it happens
23:30:03 <Vorpal> elliott, do take a screenshot however
23:30:06 <elliott> ineiros: Unfortunately, the blocks of coal ore are indestructible.
23:30:23 <Vorpal> elliott, do you have a pickaxe?
23:30:28 <ineiros> elliott: They shouldn't be. Do they disappear and then reappear?
23:30:37 <elliott> ineiros: I've tried mining them twice in a row.
23:30:50 <Vorpal> elliott, then just hold a few seconds after they go away
23:30:52 <ineiros> elliott: That happens sometimes. It's some kind of a bug. Sometimes related to the connection.
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23:31:46 <fizzie> There's more "unable to mine things" multiplayer bugs than just the recent one.
23:31:56 <elliott> ineiros: OK, and *now* I just placed a workbench to make a new pickaxe with since my old one ran out, and it *disappeared*!
23:32:05 <fizzie> Can't quite recall what fixed one.
23:32:35 <elliott> Stuff this, I'm going to fizzie's subtree emporium.
23:33:25 <fizzie> elliott: If you want, you can have a spare diamond pickaxe; there should be two in the chest that's on the right wall, further away from the door, at my house.
23:33:45 <ineiros> fizzie: Can you still "recharge" the items?
23:33:45 <fizzie> I'd go and throw it at you but the N900 doesn't yet have a client.
23:33:56 <elliott> fizzie: Unfortunately I have no idea where your house is! Also, there's no more torches leading to the subtree.
23:34:02 <elliott> I mean -- they cut off at one point.
23:34:07 <elliott> More accurately: I can't find the next one.
23:34:21 <fizzie> They should continut far enough that you can see the structures.
23:34:32 <fizzie> Have you swam across the ocean yet?
23:34:39 <elliott> True, I see some structures.
23:34:44 <elliott> fizzie: Does "ocean" mean "very short bit of water"?
23:34:49 <Vorpal> I placed a furnace and then it changed the direction it faced a few seconds later
23:34:52 -!- aloril has joined.
23:34:58 <elliott> fizzie: Okay, I see some really tall thing.
23:35:03 <elliott> fizzie: I guess that's where I gotta go.
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23:35:27 <fizzie> I'd come and give you a tour but the N900 doesn't yet have a client.
23:35:34 <elliott> <fizzie> I'd go and throw it at you but the N900 doesn't yet have a client.
23:35:35 <elliott> <fizzie> I'd come and give you a tour but the N900 doesn't yet have a client.
23:35:46 <elliott> I'd have saved your parents but then N900 doesn't yet have a client.
23:36:04 <fizzie> ineiros: Yes, but server-side health is coming in the next patch, which will probably fix that too.
23:36:12 <elliott> Vorpal: You never told me how hilariously inaccurate ladder-climbing is!
23:36:19 <fizzie> Forgot I actually said that thing.
23:36:51 <elliott> fizzie: I have this really terrible urge to break a little bit of glass above that really high drop thing above that thing.
23:36:54 <fizzie> Anyway, the small hut near the tall thing has the entrance to the mines; subtree is near the bottom of that staircase.
23:37:22 <fizzie> Yes, but that's a bit impolite. (I had the same urge, though.)
23:37:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I thought you knew about ladders
23:37:33 <elliott> Who made it, so I can confess my sins to them?
23:37:46 <elliott> ^W^W^W^Wextort them into^W^W^Wconfess my sins
23:42:17 <fizzie> I wasn't there when it was made.
23:42:42 <Sgeo> "<someone in #clojure> Sgeo: There was no "debacle". Just people being more or less rigorous with their notation :P"
23:43:38 <Sgeo> Is it wrong to think of Haskell as a stepping-stone to Scala, rather than the other way around as I've seen recommended?
23:43:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, fall through where?
23:43:54 <Sgeo> Learn pure FP first, then mix-and-match as appropriate for the situation
23:44:20 <elliott> Sgeo: You clearly have no idea what it means to be "appropriate for the situation"...
23:44:23 <elliott> Vorpal: That big glass thing.
23:44:38 <elliott> Does glass turn into glass when picked?
23:44:51 <Vorpal> elliott, it disappears
23:44:57 <ineiros> elliott: What? The ladder?
23:45:07 <elliott> ineiros: Erm -- You know that really tall glass... chimney for a better word?
23:45:14 <elliott> Just the huge glass wall with a huge glass spire on top.
23:45:32 <Vorpal> ineiros, there, made a torch path up to where I am working and put up signs saying "this place is under development by vorpal
23:45:35 <Sgeo> elliott, I'm still not entirely convinced that it's appropriate to implement a queue as a purely-functional data structure
23:45:35 <ineiros> elliott: So, how much did you break?-)
23:45:52 <elliott> ineiros: Nothing! I'm just trying to figure out who I ask for permission to break one little piece of glass so I can have a huge fall. :)
23:46:04 <elliott> Sgeo: Chris Okasaki hates you.
23:46:28 <elliott> Sgeo: Go buy Purely Functional Data Structures or something.
23:46:30 <ineiros> elliott: Well, at least if you replace it later, I guess removing a piece won't hurt much. :)
23:46:38 <Sgeo> elliott, I'm aware that it's possible
23:47:13 <elliott> ineiros: How long can I take a loan out for on a piece? :-P
23:47:22 <Sgeo> But... why? Unless there's a demonstration that purely-functional data structures can always be made as efficient as the non-functional equivalent
23:47:55 <ineiros> elliott: Until someone who cares notices that it's missing. ;)
23:48:05 <fizzie> I can't see any holes in that thing.
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