00:00:36 -!- Goosey has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:01:00 Goosey is a Fooneticer 00:01:33 -!- Goosey has joined. 00:01:36 elliott, that cavern connects to most of the caves in that area. 00:01:47 Phantom_Hoover__: It does? Ha. 00:01:55 Phantom_Hoover__: There are two massive caverns, I think. 00:01:58 I found two while mining. 00:02:18 olsner: protip: using bios = shorter code :P 00:02:25 It's extremely large; I started exploring it a short distance from the end of the tunnel. 00:02:44 Phantom_Hoover__: I end up getting stuck in circles before I get to too many places. 00:02:49 (It is big even then, though.) 00:03:01 Phantom_Hoover__: Also, which tunnel? 00:03:06 The Tunnel to Hoover? 00:03:09 Yes. 00:05:20 brb 00:05:43 I'd want to place a few torches outside to melt the snow :P 00:08:23 elliott, Phantom_Hoover__: hah IF you know what to look for you can find part of my easter egg on the topo map 00:08:36 but if you didn't know where to look and what to look for: not a chance 00:09:32 Vorpal, OK. I can't be bothered playing your little guessing game. I don't really care about pandering to your ego for your little terraforming project. 00:10:09 Phantom_Hoover__, you completely misinterpret it 00:10:27 i concur with ph 00:10:32 cut it out 00:11:03 of course you would concur with him. It is only to be expected. 00:11:27 bawwwwwwwwwwww ;_; 00:11:47 oh, oh. It's a sheep right? 00:12:37 Vorpal, if you've put work into something, show it to us, rather than annoying us. 00:12:56 Phantom_Hoover__, I am however sure that ehird would hate it 00:13:11 Vorpal, OK, /msg it to me. 00:13:16 then stop nickpinging me 00:13:23 Phantom_Hoover__, besides it isn't done. :/ 00:13:29 Phantom_Hoover__, the completion time is erratic 00:13:35 Phantom_Hoover__, since trees are involved 00:13:58 Hey, who mounted the expedition to the east? 00:14:03 And west? 00:14:12 Vorpal. 00:14:16 Phantom_Hoover__, look on topo map :P 00:14:24 Phantom_Hoover__, nice marker to west 00:14:49 Phantom_Hoover__, since you called your direction "frigid north" I go for "wild west" and "exotic east" 00:15:24 w=w, e=e. why? because f=n 00:16:08 elliott, well no. Wild west because well you know 00:16:19 I'm assuming that you made a tower in the west. 00:16:21 and then what was the classical connotation of the east 00:16:23 Phantom_Hoover__, so I did 00:16:30 Phantom_Hoover__, it is 1x1 with a platform 00:16:37 Phantom_Hoover__, I made no torch trail there 00:16:43 Phantom_Hoover__, that is why I marked it with a tower 00:16:53 And your Soopir Sekrit Project? 00:17:04 Phantom_Hoover__, what? 00:17:12 Where is it? 00:17:39 I'll tell when it is complete 00:17:56 stfu about it until then, then 00:17:58 I'm assuming north or northwest, since you've mentioned snow and there's obviously been exploration that way. 00:19:01 elliott, bah, part of it is performance art. That part is code named iHype 00:19:21 should release some leaks soon ;P 00:22:07 Vorpal, this is seriously stupid. We don't really care what you're doing, since we have no idea what it is. 00:22:44 Phantom_Hoover__, I'll let you in on it then. You might be able to help too 00:22:44 Stop being annoying about it; finish it in silence, then reveal it, or let us openly follow its development. 00:25:41 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:36:08 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:37:37 -!- TLUL has joined. 00:39:11 * Phantom_Hoover__ → sleep 00:39:28 NO SLEEP FOR YOU 00:39:28 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 00:40:47 -!- TLUL_ has joined. 00:40:58 oerjan, duh that is a type signature 00:43:08 -!- Goose has joined. 00:43:29 ಠ_ಠ 00:43:41 -!- Goose has changed nick to Guest43641. 00:44:06 oerjan, what: " [0CA0]_[0CA0]" 00:44:15 oerjan, that was no utf-8 00:44:22 apparently not even my own terminal shows that correctly (but it's fine in the logs) 00:44:33 -!- Quadlex has quit (Write error: Broken pipe). 00:44:34 -!- jix_ has quit (Write error: Broken pipe). 00:44:34 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:44:35 -!- Goosey has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:44:42 -!- jix has joined. 00:44:43 oerjan, I can't load them atm 00:44:52 -!- TLUL has quit (Disconnected by services). 00:44:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:44:56 -!- TLUL_ has changed nick to TLUL. 00:45:09 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 00:45:51 um it's supposed to be utf-8. look of disapproval from reddit (technically some indian characters i think) 00:46:14 My terminal shows it as an unknown unicode character. 00:46:38 yeah it's common not to have it in your fonts, afaiu 00:47:55 (PuTTY (the terminal I use for IRC) displays invalid UTF-8 codes differently than unicode characters that are not available in the font.) 00:48:08 -!- Sgeo has joined. 00:48:13 Dear Laptop: Fuck you 00:48:19 i also use putty, it just showed a blank space. font is courier new. 00:49:17 although it is set to do that recoding/translation stuff, so maybe it is trying to correct somehow. 00:49:42 but still, IE shows it correctly in the logs, and claims the page is utf-8 00:50:17 um it's supposed to be utf-8. look of disapproval from reddit (technically some indian characters i think) 00:50:19 yes, kannada 00:50:22 (that recoding means i still see things nicely when people are actually using iso-8859-1, i think 00:50:27 ) 00:50:42 usually the irc client converts to utf-8 not the termainl 00:50:43 *terminal 00:50:52 * elliott wonders if oerjan has somehow managed to not realise i'm ehird 00:51:01 let's go with yes, that's more amusing than no 00:51:04 * oerjan swats elliott -----### 00:51:32 i suppose the annoyingness gives it away huh 00:51:35 -!- Leonidas_ has changed nick to Leonidas. 00:52:03 hmph, why does this not work 00:52:32 elliott: well yeah it's obviously irssi converting iso-8859-1 on the channel into utf-8 on my screen 00:53:19 or well it should, i'm not sure i've seen it working since i changed my terminal to utf-8 00:53:46 it did convert both to iso-8859-1 as best it could before 00:54:21 oerjan: My font is also Courier New, but it shows not a blank space but a empty square often used for replacement of unknown unicode characters. 00:55:25 Huh. Squeeze to support ZFS root. 00:55:29 oh well. at least Phantom_Hoover's → showed up nicely. 00:56:31 pikhq: With fuse? lol. 00:56:39 elliott: How else? 00:56:56 pikhq: There's a native port going on that is totally illegal to distribute a binary of. (They haven't bothered porting the POSIX layer yet though :P) 00:57:15 ineiros_: Reliable way to get a server error and disconnect: Hit (in my case with a sword) a minecart you're in. 00:57:50 elliott: Mmm, illegal. 00:57:53 pikhq: It occurs to me that a FUSE / is the stupidest idea ever. 00:57:56 Also, not illegal when distributed as source. 00:58:03 Could perfectly well go into Gentoo. 00:58:08 It'll certainly go into Gentoo. 00:58:24 They already offer things that are illegal to distribute as binaries, after all. 00:58:26 What makes it illegal to distribute the binary? 00:58:48 zzo38: The license for ZFS is GPL-incompatible. 00:59:13 Because Oracle (formerly Sun) hates progress. 00:59:41 And it would be highly impractical to implement ZFS from scratch. 01:00:33 -!- olsner has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:00:50 Shame, too. 01:00:55 ZFS is *ridiculously* good. 01:01:30 so basically Oracle is the current Most Evil Company? 01:01:42 of the large contenders, anyway 01:02:05 oerjan: They have always been, really. 01:02:06 -!- Sasha has joined. 01:02:20 Well, most evil tech company. 01:02:37 Monsanto and Dow blow all the tech companies away when it comes to evil. 01:03:14 * oerjan hadn't even heard of Dow before now 01:03:46 -!- Sasha2_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 01:03:50 I haven't heard of either 01:04:33 Vorpal: They both manufactured Agent Orange. 01:04:40 pikhq: Sun were actually one of the nicer tech companies. 01:04:47 Which makes their acquisition all the more depressing. 01:04:54 Vorpal: you don't know who monsanto are? lol. 01:05:02 also even I knew who Dow are... 01:05:09 Dow Chemical is also notable for the worst industrial accident ever: Bhopal. 01:05:14 elliott, the name is familiar 01:05:21 Some 16,000 died from that. 01:05:25 -!- Guest43641 has changed nick to Goose124. 01:05:36 monsanto makes genetically engineered food, modified in such a way that you _have_ to buy new seeds from them every season. probably other evil things, too. 01:05:45 "@wikileaks Speaking as Wikipedia's co-founder, I consider you enemies of the U.S.--not just the government, but the people." -- Larry Sanger, Citizendium founder! (Also Wikipedia co-founder, but let's just try and forget that ever happened.) 01:05:51 ah 01:06:08 oerjan: they also do bad things to farmers who refuse to buy from them :p 01:06:10 oerjan: They're also a notable chemical manufacturer. 01:06:18 ah. 01:06:38 They produce the herbicides and the seeds that are resistant to them. 01:07:27 pikhq: They sell water from Bhopal now: http://theyesmen.org/blog/dow-runs-scared-from-water 01:07:33 pikhq: (I would link to the actual site but -- alas -- it is down.) 01:07:55 Oh, they've also done DDT. 01:08:31 ... And they had plans to eliminate all non-genetically-engineered members of species they do genetic engineering on. 01:08:39 if they were responsible for bhopal i guess must have heard the name, it's just so forgettable. 01:08:45 *i must 01:08:57 So, yeah, they're ridiculously evil. 01:09:02 I do not use herbicides and pesticides and those kind of generic engineering, they will mess up everything and I do not need it. 01:09:36 zzo38: what if you were in an area with a shitload of mosquitos 01:11:06 elliott: Wear protection. 01:12:48 zzo38: a full body suit? 01:13:51 ye olde burka 01:15:29 elliott: Not necessarily. 01:15:37 zzo38: what then 01:16:15 Of course that is a bad area to be in, in general; regardless of pesticides, full body suit, or anything else. 01:17:34 the northernmost county of norway is notorious for swarms of mosquitos. fortunately they don't have malaria, though. 01:17:56 oerjan, similar for north Sweden 01:18:00 oerjan: Then that is good. Since they don't have malaria! 01:18:05 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 01:18:38 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/Malaria_geographic_distribution_2003.png It's hard to avoid malaria. 01:19:49 oh all of US is free? actually i'd guess some chemical companies would take the honor for that ;D 01:20:08 Yes, that's genuinely courtesy of DDT. 01:21:14 "@wikileaks Speaking as Wikipedia's co-founder, I consider you enemies of the U.S.--not just the government, but the people." -- Larry Sanger, Citizendium founder! (Also Wikipedia co-founder, but let's just try and forget that ever happened.) <-- what caused him to say that? 01:21:23 i am assuming with norway and many other of the green countries it is simply the cold. although i'm sure Italy had it once... the _name_ is from there after all 01:21:39 Vorpal: "hurr revealing it puts the people at risk" 01:21:43 I think Wikileaks is the good idea 01:21:46 Vorpal: presumably because of, i dunno, TERRISTS or something 01:22:26 elliott, well I meant: anything specific lately 01:22:33 no 01:22:38 oerjan: Indeed, it was actually eradicated from Western Europe, the US, and Australia. Other places just never had it. 01:22:41 it was in reply to an unrelated thing on the wikileaks twitter 01:22:47 I thought Vorpal was asking about his distancing himself from Wikipedia 01:23:12 Sgeo, ... no? 01:23:22 you completely misread that 01:23:35 look where the quotes are 01:24:16 Also, the risk is pretty close to nil outside of sub-Saharan Africa, anyways. 01:24:33 Oh 01:25:22 mhm 01:26:00 oh major document release coming up tomorrow 01:26:01 elliott, ^ 01:26:07 that is what caused it I presume 01:26:11 yes 01:26:12 probably 01:26:12 that "Speaking as Wikipedia's co-founder" just makes him sound desperate, naturally 01:26:26 oerjan: especially as he basically hates wikipedia now :) 01:26:31 desperate for attention 01:27:09 hmph why can't i use the bios putstr after using my vga memory cls... 01:28:44 IMO, it depends on what's being released, and how much is being redacted 01:29:26 Sgeo: It really doesn't. 01:29:37 Sgeo: If they redact anything I consider that a blight upon Wikileaks. 01:30:18 elliott, individual names of people whose lives may be at risk if their names are publicised? 01:30:37 Sgeo: Killed by who? The US government? 01:30:42 You realise how blatantly transparent of them that would be? 01:31:50 elliott, diplomatic cable messages it seems 01:31:55 Maybe persons who've been cooperative with the US who infiltrate whoever? I'm not referring specificially to the upcoming release, I don't know what it's about 01:32:01 I'm saying in genral 01:32:02 general 01:32:10 elliott, like the embassies sending messages home 01:32:12 Sgeo: If you restate that in a way that's actually coherent maybe you'll have a point. 01:32:14 Vorpal: right 01:32:24 Vorpal: will be interesting to see. 01:32:39 elliott, I'm sure this can cause some well needed embarrassment for some 01:32:55 :) 01:33:27 some news articles seem to indicate that israel was briefed about potential embarrassment by the US today. Ha. Ha. 01:33:36 Vorpal: Admittedly the Wikileaks name is unfortunate; it used MediaWiki but was not much of a wiki. (And they've taken that down due to bandwidth, it seems, as well as all the pre-Iraq War logs leaks.) 01:33:43 (Although the "Collateral Murder" video is probably still there.) 01:33:55 Vorpal: yeah, the US have been telling everyone "You won't like this!" and not much else 01:34:05 elliott, indeed 01:34:20 Vorpal: meanwhile, your government still has a warrant out for Assange's arrest, and recently sentenced everyone in the Pirate Bay case to jail time. 01:34:22 shame on you :P 01:34:23 elliott, no, all _we_ know is that the US is saying "You won't like this" 01:34:30 elliott, yes it sucks 01:34:37 Sgeo: oh yeah i'm sure just that was leaked and nothing else 01:35:16 elliott, the release hasn't happened yet, has it? 01:35:31 elliott, Israel are still denying having nuclear weapons right? 01:35:46 Sgeo: If you restate that in a way that's actually coherent maybe you'll have a point. <-- now you're just being dense on purpose. 01:36:04 elliott, one thing to hope for then is that this contains proof for that 01:37:06 Sgeo: no 01:37:13 Sgeo: i mean the fact that they were briefing others 01:37:24 oerjan: not really, his statement was too vague to constitute much of an objection 01:38:22 elliott: yet you understand perfectly that there _may_ be people at risk - it was a major issue in previous leaks after all 01:38:33 *with previous leaks 01:39:13 although those were more directly concerned with war zones 01:39:40 oerjan: well yes, if it was a war log thing i'd listen to that complaint more. but embassy messages? 01:39:43 oerjan: and the like 01:39:46 (well may be. we don't know what will be leaked.) 01:39:47 oerjan: besides afaik nobody has actually died. 01:39:50 oerjan: yes we do 01:39:56 elliott, hence me saying in general 01:40:05 oerjan: "Wikileaks to release 251,287 cables and 8,000 diplomatic directives, 1966-present, none classified as "top secret", only "secret"" --Der Spiegel 01:40:14 (indirect quote via reddit :P) 01:40:20 elliott: embassy messages can contain things about informants, surely 01:40:59 oerjan: sure, but nothing on the level of war logs. 01:41:12 oerjan: and again i don't know that anyone's actually died. 01:41:24 i think it's rather unlikely 01:41:25 also we may not know whether anyone has died, i'm sure the taliban and the like kill people on suspicion all the time 01:41:40 oerjan: sure, but we'd expect to hear about it. usually. 01:41:44 Still, anything with an informant's name should be redacted. Just the name. And other material containing enough detail to identify someone, perhaps 01:41:53 oerjan: anyway i agree that care needs to be taken in sensitive situations. 01:42:02 but definitely don't redact anyone not at risk 01:42:06 and don't redact any high-profile figures 01:43:36 why would we hear about it? it may have been some nobody from a remote village who only spoke to someone once too much 01:43:39 NetHack needs a FooTV and Sequell equivalent 01:44:31 Was it confirmed that there were informant names present? 01:45:21 My primary complaint with Wikileaks is this: almost all of the information they've leaked is information that should never have been classified in the first place. 01:46:11 Or, even if it should have been, should not have been classified long. 01:46:44 pikhq: But that is why they leak it, isn't it? 01:47:03 zzo38: Yes. 01:47:21 zzo38: I'm just damned annoyed that there's anything *to leak*. 01:47:38 pikhq: That's not really a complaint about Wikileaks :P 01:47:42 Sgeo: No. 01:47:42 pikhq: Ah, are you annoyed by the government? 01:47:58 elliott: It's more concerning their existence than *about* them, yeah. 01:48:00 zzo38: Yes. 01:48:06 pikhq: "My main complaint about Wikileaks is that the Iraq war should never have happened!" 01:48:09 pikhq: bit of a weird thing to say 01:48:27 elliott: Yeah, well, it's true. Fuck Bush so hard. 01:48:52 pikhq: Obama isn't exactly perfect either :P 01:49:07 elliott, better than Bush by far thouh 01:49:10 though* 01:49:24 elliott, also: pulling out *is* tricky 01:49:34 Vorpal: Should have warn a war condom. Wait, what? 01:49:36 *worn 01:49:52 elliott, wait, what indeed 01:49:53 Vorpal: And sure, "by far", but really it's a tiny step to the left and people scream "communist". 01:50:03 Fuck that, we know what real communists are and they're not Obama. 01:50:18 elliott, indeed mostly done 01:50:20 Obama is a right-wing corporatist, and so was Clinton. And so was just about every modern US president ever. 01:50:24 elliott, but I meant to get here 01:50:34 Vorpal: right 01:50:51 night → 01:51:33 My character in D&D game is ettercap; so, now they can make "secret society of those who kill ettercap" and some will be found in the game. 01:52:59 elliott: I don't think Obama's great. Bush was just a right bastard. 01:56:20 pikhq: Yeah. 01:58:33 Why the fuck is my computer beeping at me 01:58:55 hm obviously cognate with norwegian "edderkopp" - but is ettercap an old english word? 02:00:08 oerjan: It's a network tool :P 02:00:24 "An ettercap is one of a race of bestial spider-men aberrations in the Dungeons & Dragons game." 02:00:25 Please tell me if you think this ANSI program is wrong? http://sprunge.us/jTaA 02:00:27 even ettercap -windows -dungeons -sniff -monster gives no google hits not about either the tool or the d&d monster 02:00:30 The name is derived from the Danish word for spider, edderkop, and is related to attercop, an archaic word for poisonous spider, used in J.R.R. Tolkien's The Hobbit.[citation needed] 02:00:38 oerjan: see ^ 02:00:50 ok so it's been mangled 02:01:11 So, it's a Tolkienism. 02:01:20 well not exactly that either 02:02:02 MZM is a zzo38 thing? 02:02:14 Sgeo: MZM is a format used by MegaZeux. 02:07:58 I have suggested this "secret society" to the dungeon master (I prefer "referee", the term used in Icosahedral RPG) 02:08:35 Different games use different terms 02:08:44 Guess I wasn't aware there was a term besides DM and GM 02:08:48 Sgeo: Yes. 02:10:29 i think i recall some game used "Storyteller" 02:10:53 oerjan: I suppose that term also works. 02:11:06 I still prefer "referee" 02:11:25 I think most prefer to go with the term closely associated with the game 02:11:32 DM for D&D, GM for Paranoia, etc 02:11:46 DM for Paranoia really doesn't make sense, it's not a dungeon 02:11:48 arguably 02:11:58 World of Darkness, it seems 02:12:11 It is not always the dungeon in D&D, either. It is only sometimes. 02:13:14 I just spent an hour and a half tuning my melodica. Huge pain in the arse, but totally worth it, it sounds so much better now. 02:15:03 I like to make my character is monster character in D&D game. I also like to do the other strange thing with D&D game. 02:16:42 Do you like the other strange thing in D&D game? 02:21:24 I found out where the beeping is coming from 02:21:41 Sgeo: Where is it coming from? 02:21:47 A flash chat 02:21:58 That I wasn't paying any attention to 02:23:59 Gregor: "tuning" your "melodica" 02:24:13 elliott: ... yes. Only without the quotes, since I was in fact tuning my melodica. 02:24:47 Gregor: Yes. You were "tuning" "your" "melodica". 02:24:50 Gregor: Or rather, you "were". 02:24:54 "You" "were". 02:27:45 "Uoy" "were". 02:28:03 "Uoy" "where". 02:28:26 "Gregor:" "You" "were" "tuning" "your" "melodica""." 02:28:51 By which I mean "Aardvarks make such tasty bedtime snacks." 02:31:43 Next time my character is also monster character, but perhaps a different one, and perhaps a class I invent, with strange things not in the book. 02:33:42 What else could you mean? 02:34:13 pikhq: Maybe you could mean "This is not 'This is not a pipe'." 02:38:12 This is how it goes: Ettercap: "I am going to put a spell on you." Human: "What spell?" Ettercap: "I am going to put a 'This is not a pipe' spell on you." Real estate agent: "This is not 'This is not a pipe'." 02:38:27 See? 02:39:25 The melodica's a cool dude 02:40:22 elliott: "Now" you are being "silly". By which i mean nearly always, and completely nuts. 02:40:24 This is how I play the game (where my character is the ettercap and your character is human) 02:40:31 oerjan: "", by which I mean . 02:40:46 elliott: Yes, exactly. Is that, too, please. 02:40:50 pikhq: ha ha, i just wanted dependent typing in haskell. 02:42:50 This is not "Dette er ikke 'Dies ist kein "Ceci n'est pas une pipe"'" 02:43:04 Now I have to invent a "This is not a pipe" spell. (Do you have idea?) 02:43:30 yes. each invocation has to be in a different language. 02:43:32 oerjan: Yes, that is the better way, I think. 02:45:36 pikhq: ha! I faked dependent types 02:46:31 When I invent this spell, then I can put this spell on someone/something, in the game. 02:46:38 HAEC NON EST PIPA 02:46:49 (note: pipa is apparently very vulgar latin) 02:47:32 My character does know many different languages, including ones they cannot speak but can write. 02:47:47 well if you put it on a pipe, the effect should be obvious. but does it have any effect on things that are already not pipes? 02:48:22 oerjan: Maybe it does, but I do not know what it is (yet). (Because the spell is not written, yet) 02:52:31 oerjan: pipa pipa pipa 02:54:26 * oerjan assumes elliott realizes that was a pun on the fact that "vulgar" in "vulgar latin" is not quite the same as its modern meaning 02:54:31 (But, the other guy I put the spell on is not necessarily human, they might even be also ettercap, for instance. Or, even a normal animal or a inanimate object, or the air, or on another of my own spell.) 02:54:51 oerjan: i know, i know. 02:55:24 although given the word in question, it probably has attracted the modern sense too 03:00:28 When I say the spell is called "This is not a pipe", I do not necessarily mean that its target will be not a pipe, what I do mean is that that spell itself is not a pipe. 03:01:20 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 03:01:20 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Changing host). 03:01:20 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 03:01:27 ah. 03:01:54 a very self-conscious spell. 03:04:28 (Maybe it could mean a pipe similar to how it means a pipe in UNIX.) 03:05:02 i was sort of thinking it could use the widest possible sense of "pipe", so yeah 03:05:46 oerjan: Yes, use the widest possible sense of "pipe". 03:06:45 havoc might be had if someone managed to find a sense in which the spell actually _was_ a pipe 03:07:17 oerjan: Yes, and that is (part of) the effect of this spell, I guess? 03:07:29 indeed 03:07:57 GOAL: Write a specialiser for the lambda calculus. PARTIAL RESULT: 39 lines of implementing the "Fin n" type in Haskell. 03:08:32 now 33. yay, progress 03:08:34 s/specialiser/spellcaster/ 03:08:42 in fact only really 18, since the rest are just helper functions. but still 03:08:46 zzo38: no :P 03:09:01 elliott: Correct, I was just joking, plese. 03:09:11 oky. 03:09:24 CORRUPTO LAMBDAM 03:12:41 Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: n = S n 03:12:42 ;_; 03:13:42 YOUR FAKE TYPES FOOL NO ONE 03:14:05 Isn't there some extension that bypasses that? 03:14:27 i don't _think_ so 03:16:10 Sgeo: no, that would completely break the type system 03:16:24 * oerjan appears to have shifted his puzzle addiction from killer sudoku to light up 03:17:10 i don't think it's so much that it would break as that it would make a _lot_ of things accidentally type correctly which you wouldn't want to 03:17:26 oerjan: same thing :P 03:17:36 oerjan: i think it actually makes the system unsound, not sure 03:17:38 after all, ocaml _does_ have a a switch to turn it off 03:17:39 maybe not 03:17:49 oerjan: i distinctly recall coding something impossible using ocaml's switch to do that 03:18:00 oh? 03:18:32 oerjan: i don't recall how :D 03:18:47 i am probably misremembering 03:18:48 *-a 03:19:27 i used it in my unlambda "compiler" with afaik no ill effect 03:19:42 of course i wasn't trying to break anything 03:20:21 -!- Goosey has joined. 03:20:40 and anyway haskell has newtypes which give you the same efficiency in the compiled program 03:20:41 Expected type: Fin (S n) -> LC (S t1) -> t -> LC (S n1) 03:20:41 Inferred type: Fin n -> t -> LC t1 -> t2 03:20:49 haskell: 99% typechecking, 1% coding! 03:20:59 now to figure out what i actually did wrong 03:21:06 oh 03:21:08 parameter order wrong 03:21:11 a simple problem for once :D 03:21:21 nope another issue! 03:21:36 oerjan: convince me not to write this in coq 03:21:49 * oerjan doesn't see why he should 03:22:21 oerjan: because dude, coq. 03:22:47 i don't even really know coq, anyway 03:25:09 oerjan: and you know haskell! all the more reason 03:25:17 -!- Goosey has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:25:47 -!- Goose124 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:26:22 lol, writing this out i just realised i essentially have a >= condition in my type 03:26:25 *fail* 03:27:12 fianna fail 03:30:23 {-# LANGUAGE GADTs, EmptyDataDecls, ScopedTypeVariables, MultiParamTypeClasses #-} 03:30:27 translation: your program will never work 03:30:34 ever 03:31:19 -!- Goosey has joined. 03:31:21 of course it will work, just avoid IncoherentInstances >:) 03:32:16 oerjan: you know, if i didn't bother with all this type-level stuff and just allowed my programs to barf on invalid lambda calculus programs, this would work fine 03:32:18 but nooooooooo 03:32:21 i have to have it correct 03:41:51 -!- wxl has joined. 03:44:33 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 03:44:50 can someone explain to me why the Fugue cat example is equivalent to 2(?!) in Prelude and not ?(?!) or ?(!?) {equivalent to brainfuck ,[.,]} 03:46:11 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 03:46:14 to revise the question, i don't get why pushing 2 makes it work. ?(?!) has equivalent function, yet pushing two and asking for input certainly isn't equivalent. 03:46:39 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 03:48:41 wxl: i doubt we have any experts on prelude here :D 03:49:10 wxl: perhaps it isn't equivalent and someone made a mistake? 03:49:14 well it's a single voice program which makes it a little more approachable 03:49:23 well they both work, which is what's odd 03:49:31 wxl: You can also post the question on the wiki, as well. 03:50:02 ah there's a thought 03:52:05 wxl: i think 2(?!) is equivalent to ?(!?) 03:52:30 oerjan: explain? 03:52:44 or wait 03:52:53 -!- Sasha has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:53:21 i think 2(?!) is equivalent _except_ that it doesn't stop on character 0 03:54:45 because the 2 is always what remains on the stack when checking the loop 03:55:36 so dependent on how the implementation treats eof, it might happen to/seem to work 03:55:45 ahhh 03:56:46 lol subst is the most fucked up function ever why 03:57:31 -!- Sasha has joined. 03:57:34 oerjan: they both seem to have no problem with eof.. of course, as you said, the implementation may have something to do with it 03:58:04 subst :: (Peano n) => LC n -> LC (S n) -> LC n 03:58:05 subst r (Lam e) = Lam (subst r e) 03:58:10 why the heck does this fail... 03:58:54 oh, ha 03:59:04 i note that the eof behavior was one of the ambiguities resolved in the http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/w/index.php?title=Prelude&diff=7938&oldid=6758 edit 04:00:23 so maybe one or more of the implementations is older than that 04:01:53 i guess that's part of the joy of esolangs: the esoteric, uh ness. 04:02:22 wxl: you could also try asking lament, he is on freenode just not presently on this channel 04:02:36 (the language author) 04:03:14 he doesn't come here very often these days 04:03:54 i will read http://www.itu.dk/people/sestoft/pebook/ soon 04:04:06 oerjan: i already told him to :) 04:04:09 that's why he's still here :P 04:04:24 oh 04:06:48 grrrrr, why is haskell inadequate for this 04:06:52 i just wanna write a specialiser 04:08:09 fuck it, i'll accept invalid programs 04:16:47 Many computer baseball game, but there is not one of cricket? Probably to make a computer cricket game, the accurate physics would be much more important. 04:25:13 http://www.eliteskills.com/z/149741 04:26:03 elliott: Specialisers are hard. 04:26:18 pikhq: in this case it was problems with haskell's inadequate type system :) 04:26:38 zzo38: also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Cricket_video_games 04:27:22 pikhq: anyway, specialising the untyped lambda calculus, what could be easier, it's basically beta reduction's retarded cousin :) 04:27:33 Ah. :) 04:27:53 oerjan: Is it true that accurate physics are more important? Or not? 04:28:35 zzo38: i don't know cricket. 04:29:48 Actually all the games have unrealistic physics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Beach_Sports 04:30:12 I do not know how good the physics compares with the Bocce game in the book "More BASIC Computer Games". 04:30:50 -!- wxl has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 04:33:23 hmm, does Y Y reduce to Y Y or does it grow forever? 04:33:30 (ignoring the obvious equivalence, I mean under standard simplifications) 04:37:12 pikhq: ok i underestimated the difficulty of a good specialiser 04:38:13 i recall in 0x29A the SII(SII) equivalent grew indefinitely 04:38:41 and that it was basically because Ix wasn't simplified to x other than in head position 04:41:01 oerjan: that's not quite Y Y though :P 04:41:21 oerjan: simplify :: LC -> LC is one of the gnarliest operations ever 04:41:26 it might depend on the order of your reductions anyway 04:41:30 it's basically eval, except you can't do anything that might not terminate. great! 04:41:38 gnarliest as in 04:41:39 horrible. 04:41:41 whether you ever get to all that you _could_ have reduced 04:42:03 oerjan: is that a deep philosophical treatise 04:42:31 my specialiser is too dumb to be able to specialise iszero on zero to true :D 04:42:47 no, but you see if you have something like Ix deep inside your term you _could_ reduce it immediately but you don't need to just to get a correct evaluation 04:43:25 and if you only reduce lazily, you probably won't 04:44:49 SII(SII) -> I(SII)(I(SII)) -> SII(I(SII)) -> I(I(SII))(I(I(SII))) -> I(SII)(I(I(SII))) -> SII(I(I(SII))) -> I(I(I(SII)))(I(I(I(SII)))) 04:44:54 etc. etc. 04:45:41 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:47:03 oerjan: right 04:47:22 otoh the LC version of that doesn't have that problem: (λx.xx)(λx.xx) -> (λx.xx)(λx.xx) 04:47:22 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 04:47:28 oerjan: the problem, of course, being that a specialiser is basically just a simplifier of ((\x. E) y); i.e., id is a perfectly "good" specialiser 04:47:34 so all this stuff ends up actually mattering :) 04:47:39 and there's no clear definition of how to "simplify" something 04:49:35 elliott: have you looked at my unlambda improved abstraction eliminator in scheme? it basically did only simplifications that shrink the result, iirc. mainly ignoring evaluating Sxyz, i think 04:49:49 oerjan: no -- got a link? i guess i could grep your website 04:49:59 oerjan: lambda expressions of course make this a lot harder :) 04:50:24 http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/ulify2.scm 04:50:40 it's based on an earlier one in the distribution 04:51:48 oh and it uses some hairy unlambda specific stuff like `d`k... 04:52:19 oerjan: wow @ this program 04:52:22 it, uh 04:52:23 readable :D 04:53:00 er is that sarcasm or not? :D 04:53:24 oerjan: yes. yes it is. :P 04:53:37 * oerjan swats elliott -----### 04:53:41 oerjan: hey, it uses inertness like i do! 04:53:45 that's, uh, not much of an achievement 04:53:54 also, ow. 04:55:22 oerjan: now my TRUE plan is of course to first write a specialiser for the lambda calculus written in haskell outputting lambda calculus, and then write a specialiser for the lambda calculus in haskell outputting C, and then write an interpreter for the lambda calculus in the lambda calculus 04:55:40 oerjan: and then running specialiserToC interpL interpL 04:55:57 oerjan: thus giving me an efficient interpreter of the lambda calculus in C! MWAHHAHA 04:56:15 oerjan: then I shall write a language sitting atop of the lambda calculus, and reimplement my two specialisers in that. 04:56:29 O KAY 04:56:36 oerjan: then i shall do, in my language, (specialiserToC specialiserToC specialiserToC) 04:56:50 this will create a C program that, uh 04:57:09 are you doing pure lambda calculus? in which case inertness would just be termination, no? 04:57:22 oerjan: this will create a C program that takes an interpreter for a language written in a lambda calculus, and results in a compiler for that language written in C 04:57:40 oerjan: and then -- and THEN -- I will write an operating system in the lambda calculus. and it will be efficient, dammit. 04:58:15 oerjan: well yes but 04:58:20 oerjan: I use inert to mean "not an application" 04:58:25 i.e. a lambda or a variable reference 04:58:37 i was going to suggest a MWAHAHA there but i see you already did one 04:58:50 oerjan: so if eval x == x, then if it's inert, the final evaluation result is that; otherwise you just infinite-loop forever 04:58:56 (if they aren't equal you continue evaluating like normal obviously) 04:59:18 oerjan: eval being one step there 05:02:24 oerjan: anyway all of this falls down because the lambda calculus is too much of a goddamn lambda-and-application soup to do any decent simplification/optimisation/compilation of :) 05:03:53 i'm thinking about linearity, specifically functions that only use their arguments once. simplifying those is guaranteed to terminate 05:04:04 *once or less, actually 05:04:21 this would at least allow simplifications of things involving i and k 05:04:44 Do you think this is good so far? Any opinion/changes? http://sprunge.us/UZCN 05:05:40 zzo38: that license is terrible, it seems incredibly shaky. 05:06:37 elliott: What would you suggest to change it so that it works? 05:07:10 * oerjan generally assumes than one shouldn't try to write a license unless one is a lawyer 05:07:41 zzo38: Not using the GPL3 with a linking exception? Just use the LGPL... 05:08:09 Assumptions shouldn't be made in licenses 05:08:14 That's how you get fucked. 05:08:18 elliott: But I only want to allow this kind of linking in certain circumstances! 05:08:48 zzo38: enter law school 05:09:14 zzo38: Enter law school, or at least read copyright law. 05:09:16 (as I have) 05:09:28 If I cannot work this exception, I will probably just remove it and have the proper GNU GPL v3 in effect. 05:09:47 20$ no one will even care about it anyways. 05:09:49 pikhq: If you have done so, can you make any suggestions regarding this license exception? 05:09:50 Thanks, give me my money. 05:09:59 zzo38: MIT it. 05:10:11 BSD it. 05:10:14 Public domain it. 05:10:29 And lol. I was thinking befunge for a second, that's a lot of ends... 05:11:07 pikhq: OK those are some suggestions, but I do not think I will do so. I will just remove the exception and use the GPLv3. 05:11:26 (Unless any better suggestions regarding the exception come) 05:11:39 Or at a minimum, read the GPLv3 and the LGPLv3's additional clause... 05:11:50 Especially the part about additional permissions. 05:11:59 OK I will read that. 05:12:43 Basically what I want, is to allow someone to use a part of a code for another roguelike to build a front-end for Secrets of SoS. 05:12:56 Even if that other code is not GPL'd. 05:13:23 Why, exactly, are you so adamant about it being GPL'd 05:13:25 ? 05:13:29 zzo38: what if it's like that except they wrote the code? 05:13:32 and it isn't gpl'd 05:13:54 LGPL is really truly what you want. You may not realise it, but it is what you want. 05:14:12 (or, of course, a more permissive license) 05:14:49 or a kitten 05:15:30 elliott: It does not matter who wrote the code. I am also OK with it if someone wants to write a front-end but does not like the GPL. 05:15:42 zzo38: then you want the LGPL, basically 05:16:05 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:17:10 Just add a clause "The Software should be used for Good, not Evil." That way, it'll look good, but actually nobody'll be legally allowed to use it at all. 05:17:37 Maybe I will look at LGPL, then. But I am not quite sure that I want *all* additional permissions of the LGPL. 05:17:44 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 05:17:58 Gregor: I do not want such a clause. It is not even sensible, nor properly meaningful. 05:18:12 zzo38: No, it isn't, it's totally stupid and horrible :P 05:18:21 zzo38: Douglas Crockford uses it for some software because he's an idiot :P 05:18:49 zzo38: The LGPL offers *an* additional permission, IIRC. 05:19:18 Gregor: concur w/ Douglas Crockford being an idiot 05:19:26 Gregor: dunno why he's so popular 05:19:40 Gregor: his most famous invention is the literals of another language :) 05:19:46 Gregor: I do agree that that "Good, not Evil" clause is stupid and evil, though. 05:19:48 Yup :P 05:21:17 What if I write "This program is licensed by LGPL, but modified versions must be licensed under GPL unless the original author gives you permission to license under LGPL and this version is still licensed under LGPL (but you have a modified version under GPL, you may not relicense it under LGPL under any circumstances)"? 05:21:54 s/and evil/and horrible/ 05:21:56 Then that's not the LGPL. 05:22:22 zzo38: "2+2=4 but 2+2≠4" makes as much sense. 05:22:28 zzo38: what 05:22:29 I'd recommend something more like licensing it under the GPL disjuncted with a license that allows redistribution in any form but no modification. 05:22:41 I'd recommend LGPL. 05:22:53 pikhq: Well, I mean to accomplish this particular strange goal ;) 05:23:03 I wouldn't actually recommend that :P 05:23:40 Obviously, I'm trying to give sane recommendations, not satisfy zzo38's NIH when it comes to licensing. 05:23:40 Gregor: I suppose that is one way. (I have seen programs, that while not the GPL, do have a license that give explicit permissions separately both for modified and for unmodified versions.) 05:23:47 (In a similar way) 05:24:01 zzo38: I think your software does not meet the FSF's definition of Free. 05:24:14 Or Debian's, so you can't have your program included in Debian. 05:24:17 Or Fedora's. 05:24:17 pikhq: I understand that; that is OK. 05:24:34 elliott: Sure it does, it's GPL in the worst case. 05:24:45 Gregor: hmm, true 05:24:46 elliott: I think it does meet the FSF's definition of Free. You may relicense under the GNU GPL v3 and therefore it is properly Free. 05:24:47 Gregor: well it shouldn't >:) 05:24:56 It would, however, make Debian very angry at you. 05:25:01 Likewise with Gentoo. 05:25:32 Just make a disjunct license so that the distros can choose to use it under GPL if they please. Trying to make weird compound licenses is a bad idea. 05:25:48 pikhq: Then let Debian change the license to the GNU GPL only if somebody wants to maintain a package of this program for Debian. 05:25:51 Just have it be under the GPL, or some modified version of say BSD that disallows further modification unless you redistribute under exclusively the GPL. 05:26:25 Gregor: That is an idea. 05:26:34 (Note: disjunctive licensing is not a compound license, it is a choice of licenses :P ) 05:26:34 I can try that. 05:26:52 This is actually not the worst licensing idea I've ever heard. 05:27:01 LGPL it, please. What you want to do is wrong. 05:27:09 Gregor: Why, do you talk to rms on a daily basis? 05:27:15 Much more wrong than parsing HTML with regexps. 05:27:23 Gregor: "I've been thinking about requiring people to distribute a copy of the GNU Manifesto with every GPLv4'd program..." 05:27:25 Gregor: I understand at least that much about compound license (I think). 05:27:27 pikhq: Dood, I parse HTML with regexps EVERY DAY 05:27:33 NERD 05:27:34 ASPIE 05:27:36 Gregor: May God have mercy on your soul. 05:27:36 RAAAAAAAAAGE 05:27:42 [bothers Gregor for the next 700 yeras] 05:27:44 *years] 05:27:51 YOU KNOW IT'S INEVITABLE 05:27:58 elliott: HTML is impossible to parse with regexps. The pain and agony he suffers from it should suffice. 05:28:08 I'm going to dedicate myself to learning 5 of the most esoteric languages 05:28:14 other than bf 05:28:21 Goosey: The 5 best, or the 5 most esoteric? 05:28:28 most 05:28:32 befunge will be one 05:28:32 Homespring. 05:28:33 elliott: If the GNU Manifesto must be distributed with every GPLv4'd program, then just make it part of the license. And then it already says you have to distribute the license and that is good enough. But what about a problem in case it makes the license too long, then? 05:28:40 You must learn Homespring. 05:28:43 Goosey: 5 classics: INTERCAL, Underload, Unlambda, Befunge-93, [insert a language]. 05:28:44 very well 05:28:53 lol 05:28:58 elliott: Homespring! 05:28:59 I'll add them to the list to try 05:29:09 I'll learn befunge for sure 05:29:10 Goosey: 5 most esoteric: Some kind of 2L/1L, Bitwise Cyclic Tag, Homespring, not sure what else. 05:29:21 /// ! 05:29:34 oerjan: ah yes 05:29:39 Goosey: and Thue 05:29:48 mmk 05:30:18 oerjan: now i want to write a self-interpreter in /// :D 05:30:37 heh 05:30:45 I cant find /// 05:30:46 :/ 05:30:47 oerjan: which, ow, just hurts my brain 05:30:51 Goosey: Slashes 05:30:55 Goosey: 05:30:56 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Slashes 05:31:40 elliott: you probably want to use Itflabtijtslwi 05:31:59 oerjan: i don't see why, your BCT interpreter didn't 05:32:28 Y'know what I don't get? The licenses of jQuery and Mozilla. 05:32:29 well true but then you need to encode the interpreted program into it 05:32:44 Having disjunctive licenses where one is strictly more restrictive than another is nonsense. 05:32:52 Gregor: compatibility? 05:32:53 i dunno :P 05:32:55 Slashes is awesome looking 05:33:10 Gregor: jquery is mit/gpl, wtf. but mozilla is mpl/gpl/apache iirc 05:33:15 which makes more sense since they're all crazy 05:33:18 elliott: Mozilla is MPL/GPL/LGPL 05:33:20 oerjan: even more fun! 05:33:27 oerjan: just escape everything :P 05:33:28 elliott: It's the GPL/LGPL part that's nonsense. 05:33:32 Gregor: lawl 05:33:52 Goosey: it took several years to find out that /// actually was turing complete 05:34:01 lol 05:35:21 what can BCT do? 05:35:47 elliott: sure it's just that Itflabtijtslwi is powerful enough to do that initial escaping for you 05:35:58 Goosey: well, it's probably the esolang with the simplest semantics. or close. 05:36:03 I think perhaps the GPL v4 should allow you to have a work licensed under the LGPL with the original author / copyright holder allowed to add rules indicating under what conditions you are allowed to keep the LGPL for modified versions; otherwise you must switch to GPL. 05:36:05 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:36:06 and afaik nobody's actually written a program in it to do anything 05:36:14 ok, collatz sequence 05:36:27 I also think the GPL v4 should have something that makes it work a bit better for literate programming. 05:36:55 (Literate programming is when the covered work is both a book and a program simultaneously) 05:37:08 Goosey: BCT cannot _do_ much, but it's turing complete and extremely simple to implement in other things 05:37:22 BCT IS TURING COMPLETE? 05:37:34 * Sgeo wikis 05:37:42 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 05:37:43 yep. that's how i showed /// was, by implementing BCT in it 05:38:06 I think that copyright law should cease to be. 05:38:17 And then GPLv4 will never be. 05:38:50 i think that irur 05:38:58 pikhq: I am OK with that if copyright law ceases, as long as patent law also ceases. 05:39:30 Patent law doesn't need *removed*, it just needs rewritten by non-morons. 05:40:04 pikhq: patents are less useful than copyright 05:40:15 i don't see any reason to keep them and abolish copyright 05:40:25 I think patent law does need to be removed, regardless of whether or not copyright law is removed. 05:41:00 elliott: Patents still possess some validity in the modern day and age. On physical inventions. Though the length of the patent grant is absurdly long. 05:41:22 Copyright, however, is completely and utterly outmoded by cp(1). 05:41:38 nah, i cba for patents 05:41:40 they're worthless 05:42:07 Software, "idea", and genetic patents, though, are worse than worthless. 05:42:13 They genuinely hold back industry. 05:42:33 *** note to self http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/ftpdir/reports/2003/YCST/04/YCST-2003-04.pdf lazy specialisation 05:42:35 But trademark is good thing. Patent is bad thing. 05:42:37 i need a bookmarking sysstem 05:42:38 *system 05:42:50 http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/2009/07/07/emphasizing-specialization/ also 05:42:56 zzo38: Trademark is not merely a good thing, but the *laws* on it are mostly good as well! 05:43:00 http://thyer.name/phd-thesis/ 05:43:02 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:43:12 lazy specialisation is probably The One True Type of Language Implementation 05:43:20 The only problem is that it goes through the court system. 05:43:22 "It is demonstrated that a completely lazy evaluator is capable of eliminating towers of interpreters." 05:43:30 And the courts are highly flawed ATM. 05:43:37 pikhq: Yes. 05:43:51 -!- wareya has joined. 05:45:47 http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/2009/07/07/emphasizing-specialization/#comment-863 ooh. 05:45:50 bye 05:45:52 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:49:06 The LGPL is what I want except that I want modified versions only under the GPL. 05:50:04 (That is, no extensions of exceptions.) 05:51:23 Holy shit 05:51:29 dimensifuck looks awesome :D 05:51:31 xD 05:54:00 Goosey: Thank you. 05:54:15 lolwut? 05:54:30 I'm Josiah "pikhq" Worcester. 05:54:33 :) 05:54:53 * Sgeo wonders if Goosey will come across PSOX 05:55:01 holy shit 05:55:04 you kidding me? 05:55:18 You made df :D 05:55:32 Yeah. What can I say, high school was boring. 05:55:52 hmm 05:55:59 I can't find any interpreters :( 05:56:01 * Sgeo wonders if Goosey's head will explode when he meets zzo38 05:56:05 Another difference with literate programming is the way header files work (see section 3 of the LGPL). 05:56:05 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:56:42 -!- TLUL has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 05:56:53 who's zz038 o-o 05:57:07 That's a letter o 05:57:21 Sgeo made PSOX huh :D 05:57:35 Goosey, yeah, not my proudest moment 05:57:44 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 05:58:24 so who's zzo38 05:58:43 A guy with the most awesome case of NIH you'll ever meet. 05:59:05 holy shit 05:59:13 he's made a bit of stuff 05:59:30 Yeah. 06:00:01 Goosey: seems the dimensifuck implementations are not even on wayback machine yet, though they sometimes take time to make it available 06:00:01 One of his languages refers to one of my languages 06:00:23 Goosey: zzo38 is right here too you know :D 06:00:32 oh hey df is actually not completely retarded 06:00:33 Lol 06:00:41 oerjan: Yes. 06:00:56 pikhq: sorry for always thinking df was bf with an infinite dimensional tape :D 06:01:39 oklopol: Nope, infinite dimensional code space. At least *somewhat* interesting. :) 06:01:43 pikhq: do you have copies of any dimensifuck implementation? 06:01:58 oerjan: I can check. 06:02:11 give me it to me too :P 06:02:42 Haha, divzeros 06:03:10 http://sprunge.us/CWiJ Okay, here's a quick Python library that implements it. 06:03:23 Uh, to actually use it... 06:03:45 http://sprunge.us/dVaX 06:03:46 Thar. 06:03:57 you're a fast coder and uploader 06:03:57 cool 06:04:02 No kidding :P 06:04:12 oklopol: Copyright © 2006... 06:04:17 shh : 06:04:18 :P 06:04:26 And not even my code. :P 06:04:33 Sgeo: Which refers to one of your languages? (Now I forgot) 06:04:44 He forgot :( 06:04:46 GrainFimple refers to BF-RLE 06:04:56 Sgeo: Ah, OK. 06:05:01 Thanks. 06:05:05 yw 06:05:18 Actually many of the esolangs I wrote refer to other people's esolangs. 06:05:25 Although BF-RLE is no more a separate language than Ook! is, so 06:05:32 is sprunge.us suitable for linking to from the wiki? 06:05:34 Just BF-RLE has a purposes besides looking weird 06:05:51 Reverse-ReverseFuck 06:05:54 oerjan: Pretty sure they recycle pastes. 06:05:59 shouldn't you just call it ForwardFuck 06:06:02 :/ 06:06:13 oerjan: Yes but they should be replaced by different links as soon as possible 06:06:13 I need a web host. 06:06:32 Goosey: If you read the description of Reverse-ReverseFuck, you can see why I shouldn't just call it ForwardFuck. 06:06:50 Yeah, I read it, I just thought that sounded pretty good. :P 06:06:58 it seems cool 06:07:13 anyone here who can upload to the esoarchive? 06:07:40 I can upload to my DiagonalFish space 06:07:54 Cya later guys. 06:08:17 Bye Goosey 06:08:28 Goosey: And (just so you know if you want) I have written many other things too besides esolang 06:08:41 -!- Sgeo has left (?). 06:08:45 -!- Sgeo has joined. 06:08:57 A web browser, an IRC client 06:09:12 Sgeo: I think the message after PART is not logged in the clog? 06:09:19 i once wrote an EMAIL 06:09:33 zzo38 Cool, I'll be back tomorrow :) 06:09:40 22:08:41 --- part: Sgeo left #esoteric 06:09:40 22:08:45 --- join: Sgeo (~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net) joined #esoteric 06:09:40 22:08:57 A web browser, an IRC client 06:09:43 Goosey: OK 06:10:00 Sgeo: Yes, the "Leaving" part is not logged there. 06:10:07 Huh 06:10:23 -!- Sgeo has left (?). 06:10:26 -!- Sgeo has joined. 06:10:38 on the other hand reverse-reversefuck is not something i would call not completely retarded 06:10:51 -!- Sgeo has left (?). 06:10:51 -!- Sgeo has joined. 06:11:07 Sgeo: Yes I guess that is one way posting a message viewable anyone by the channel and not appear in the logs. 06:11:10 pikhq: the dimensifuck page also contains a broken link to pikhq.nonlogic.org 06:11:38 oerjan: Yeah, nonlogic has been down for a couple years now. 06:11:54 How nonlogical 06:12:00 hey i just implemented a language it's called rot13weird and basically it's you write a program and then it's rot13'd and run as wierd code 06:12:08 However, CthulhuIRCd logs exactly what is sent to every client on the channel, with a timestamp. (Hence the rule in SIRCL requiring line-endings to be CRLF even on UNIX) 06:12:28 Creepy 06:12:35 numbers are rot13'd by adding |N|/2 modulo |N| 06:12:37 It is the requirement of SIRCL that the logs are logged in that way. 06:12:44 \mathbb{N} 06:12:58 Remind me not to give you my password in SIRCL 06:13:06 oklopol: NUMBERS DON'T WORK THAT WAY 06:13:11 Or tell you my deep dark evil secrets 06:13:17 oerjan: what do you mean? 06:13:33 SIRCL: Why would you ever do that anyways? There is no need to give me your password in SIRCL. 06:13:36 i have an exam on ERGODIC THEORY tomorrow, i think i know how numbers work. 06:13:42 and they work like that 06:13:51 zzo38, it was a joke, I was not seriously planning on giving you any password 06:13:52 you cannot add \mathbb{N}/2 to them and expect that to be a bijection 06:13:56 s/SIRCL:/Sgeo:/ 06:13:57 -!- Goosey has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 06:14:05 actually i can expect it to be any kind of jection i want 06:14:11 you just need some math skillz 06:14:23 * oerjan swats oklopol -----### 06:14:33 finally 06:14:34 :D 06:14:40 You do not give someone your password (or secrets) on *any* IRC channel, logged or not! 06:14:43 Have I ever been swatted? 06:14:50 * oerjan swats Sgeo -----### 06:14:51 NO 06:14:53 SIRCL is simply one kind of log format for IRC. 06:15:59 You mean I shouldn't tell you that when I was younger 06:16:00 I 06:16:01 -!- Sgeo has quit (Quit: Leaving). 06:16:05 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:16:47 pikhq: that license on that python file looks about as bad as zzo38's attempts, here... 06:17:06 -!- Sgeo has joined. 06:17:15 oerjan: ... What the fuck did I do. 06:17:16 oerjan: Okay. 06:17:27 oerjan: I hereby relicense it under the first license in the file. 06:17:37 oerjan: Which is... 3-clause BSD. 06:17:44 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 06:18:01 poiuy_qwert can't be here without me obviously. 06:18:35 pikhq: hm that's compatible with gpl, isn't it? so perhaps that's somehow consistent anyhow 06:18:47 oerjan: It's consistent, yes. 06:18:54 oerjan: But weird. 06:19:43 Do you have any opinion about the file I posted, other than the licensing? 06:20:39 well i'm just putting the sprunge.us links on the wiki for now. 06:23:13 What's wrong with sprunge.us ? 06:23:32 We're not sure if they're permalinks. 06:24:15 In my opinion, it is OK to use it, but they should be replaced as soon as possible and reasonable to do so. 06:28:08 Is sprunge.us a zzo38 invention? 06:28:11 It looks awesome 06:29:39 Sgeo: No, it's just awesome. 06:30:39 I should probably install cygwin at some poin 06:30:41 point 06:33:35 Sgeo: I did not invent it but I do like it 06:36:05 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:37:41 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 06:43:13 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:56:05 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:57:44 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 07:02:15 mmm, pickled herring 07:03:24 Why, your Norwegianness is showing. 07:03:50 (though that sounds like it could be quite good.) 07:03:55 it is 07:04:51 it's considered christmas food here 07:05:42 of course that might not be considered a convincing argument by most foreigners (see: lutefisk) 07:06:37 Less horrifying than rotten shark, though. 07:07:19 Iceland frightens me. 07:07:37 ... Okay, so does Japan sometimes. Natto. *gag* 07:08:39 i think pickled herring is sort of sushi like, although i wouldn't know because i've never dared to try _real_ sushi 07:09:02 More like what sushi developed out of. 07:10:27 ...i guess you wouldn't want to eat raw untreated fish until your civilization had developed a certain degree of hygiene and refrigeration 07:11:12 Sushi was originally fermented fish (hence the name, "sushi", or "sour"). The fermentation time shortened as preperation techniques made the fermentation less necessary, and it eventually went away. 07:11:27 ah 07:11:38 And rice is involved because it was fermented in rice. 07:11:46 what i've been eating is called "sursild" in norwegian, literally sour herring 07:12:16 Nowadays, the only remnant of that is that the rice has some vinegar in it. 07:12:20 except this is sour because it contains vinegar and stuff, not because it's spoiled in any way 07:12:22 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:13:22 hm i guess that means the norwegian variant maybe fermented at one time too... 07:14:40 There's very few fermented foods that actually disturb me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natt%C5%8D This. 07:14:56 hm apparently pickling is considered a form of fermentation 07:15:15 Acetic acid is produced via fermentation during pickling. 07:16:37 http://www.wellnowwhat.net/blog/?p=434 07:18:04 hm it seems salting is also considered pickling. 07:18:33 pikhq: natto just looks nasty 07:18:49 like some sort of insect egg mass 07:19:19 augur: Yuh. 07:20:18 its not even that its fermented 07:20:21 its just that its slimey 07:20:22 actually the norwegian sursild i think is usually produced by _first_ salting the herring and afterwards changing to a vinegar solution 07:20:25 thats the nasty part 07:20:40 fermented soybean /paste/ 07:20:54 well thats different, thats just miso mix and it looks like bean mush 07:21:04 and the just salted herring (spekesild) may also be considered a delicacy on its own 07:22:45 and i read that natto is supposedly healthy and there is a form of vitamin (K something?) that only exists in it... 07:23:40 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 07:23:56 oerjan: Doubtful. There's a lot of fermented soybean foods out there. 07:24:13 For instance, miso. 07:24:21 http://www.nattopharma.com/ actually norwegian company 07:24:43 You grind the soybeans and mix it with a few other things *before* fermenting to get miso. 07:24:49 And it makes a delicious broth. 07:25:09 Well, combined with dashi. 07:25:38 -!- TLUL_ has joined. 07:26:12 -!- TLUL_ has changed nick to TLUL. 07:34:34 pikhq: Is miso soup just miso and water? 07:34:42 Gregor: No. 07:34:46 Err, I mean just the broth :P 07:34:51 Obviously there are solids in there too :P 07:34:57 Gregor: It's miso and dashi. 07:35:08 Oh, you even said that. Huzzah! 07:35:26 "just miso and water" is kind of .. non-trivial 07:35:33 since miso is not "just" any one thing 07:35:56 thats like asking if ramen is "just" ramen powder, noodles, and water 07:36:03 or if cake is "just" cake batter thats been baked 07:36:32 Or if cake is "just" flour and water. 07:36:33 augur: Congratulations, you've declared that "just" shall never be used. 07:36:38 (what with the claim being wrong. :P) 07:36:55 it can be, but the issue is that its vacuous here 07:37:28 Though that *is* the recipe for hardtack. 07:37:30 augur: What with mud being /just/ a complex assortment of organic and inorganic molecules some of which are dissolved into and others of which are suspended in water. 07:38:11 sure, its just miso and water, but miso is everything in the soup that isnt water, basically. dashi is just a kelp-and-tuna broth 07:38:24 Gregor: thats my point tho, right 07:38:28 augur: WRONG. 07:38:36 pikhq: wikipedia disagrees. 07:38:45 augur: There's more to typical miso soup than just the miso paste. 07:38:57 yeah, theres also dashi, ok. 07:39:02 * Gregor does a jig. 07:39:10 but like i said, dashi is kelp and tuna broth 07:39:13 Could you please fight over something CSey instead? At least I have some chance of comprehending 07:39:15 ok maybe you throw in so tofu too 07:39:20 Even if not much 07:39:27 Sgeo: hey, i tried to bring up Reader monads 07:39:30 You can throw in a variety of ingredients. 07:39:32 dont blame me if it aint there 07:40:24 The miso paste is just the characteristic ingredient of miso soup. :) 07:41:00 miso and dashi are really all you need for miso soup 07:41:18 Y'know what people? Curry chicken is JUST chicken and curry powder. SUCK IT. 07:41:29 well thats false 07:41:36 By that same notion water and flour are really all you need for bread. 07:41:48 pikhq: depends on the kind of bread. 07:41:57 augur: Depends on the kind of curry chicken :P 07:42:05 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:42:18 Gregor: no, it doesnt. curry chicken needs at least some sort of liquid. 07:42:22 Maybe my curry chicken is just chicken patted down with curry powder. 07:42:36 Water and flour suffices for getting something that counts as bread, just like miso and dashi suffices for getting something that counts as miso soup. 07:42:42 Gregor: then thats not curry chicken. 07:42:47 augur: Curry chicken ≠ chicken curry. 07:43:00 yes, it does = chicken curry 07:43:06 augur: Curry chicken is chicken with a curry flavor, not a curry made with chicken. 07:43:13 augur: Also, if that's not curry chicken, then flour+water is definitely not bread. 07:43:14 no, its not 07:43:21 i know because im a linguist! 07:43:42 "Stand back! I'm a LINGUIST!" 07:43:44 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 07:43:53 Gregor: nope sorry. lots of breads are made from just flour and water 07:43:57 Linguistics has little to do with cuisine. 07:43:58 and this is recognized as being a kind of bread 07:44:03 My father is a linguist (in the has-a-linguistics-degree sense). The most important lesson he ever taught me is not to be a linguist. 07:44:09 augur: Uh, *just* flour and water? 07:44:15 but coating chicken with curry powder is not recognized by anyone except you as curry chicken 07:44:17 pikhq: yes 07:44:20 augur: The only such bread I know of is hardtack. 07:44:41 When you do that, you get insanely hard bread. 07:44:49 lots of unleavened bread is like this 07:44:51 usually you fry it. 07:45:07 indian bread is often just water and flour 07:45:30 thats not to say it doesnt get /better/ with some other stuff 07:45:34 Ah, sure enough. 07:45:59 Figured they'd have something to make it not so hard in there. 07:46:18 you gotta cook it right 07:46:18 Perhaps it's just more water in the mix, so they get a bit more steam leavening. 07:46:52 and the tandoori. exposing it to fire does different things that normal ovens 07:47:34 thus we've proven that linguistics DOES have something to do with cuisine 07:47:34 :D 07:47:40 Anyways, I'm pretty sure that curry chicken is curry-adj. chicken-noun. 07:47:56 Because this is Not. Fucking. French. 07:48:06 (in spite of what fixed phrases would tell you) 07:48:16 its a noun-noun compound 07:48:35 but even so, that doesnt change anything 07:48:37 The ordering of which, I'm fairly certain, matters. 07:49:04 a Brown Cow is a rootbeer float made with chocolate icecream 07:49:08 its still adj-noun 07:49:14 non-compositionality, bitches 07:49:17 get used to it 07:49:40 It's still parsing as chicken which is curry, not curry with chicken. 07:49:51 so? 07:49:59 chicken that-is-curried means cooked in curry 07:50:10 ... That is, chicken with a curry flavor. 07:50:25 not the most people. 07:50:44 pikhq: where are you again? 07:50:47 britland? 07:50:51 US. 07:50:51 * Gregor continues to read but not participate in this conversation while munching on curry potato chips. 07:50:53 oh, well 07:51:05 Gregor: Which are clearly not curry made with potato chips. 07:51:06 go to an indian restaurant with lots of white people 07:51:20 pikhq: That would be pretty gross! 07:51:21 ask them if curry chicken can be just chicken coated with curry then fried 07:51:27 bet you the answer will be no. 07:51:52 augur: That's conflating meaning with preferences. 07:51:58 no, its not 07:52:10 "curry chicken" is simply non-compositional 07:52:14 augur: If you ask them that, they'll say no because it offends their sensibilities, not because it wouldn't be classified as "curry chicken" 07:52:16 it means the same thing as chicken curry 07:52:23 Gregor: prove it 07:52:29 Why? 07:52:34 because you're asserting it. 07:52:36 and you're wrong 07:52:41 you think you're right, show me. 07:52:42 I really couldn't care less what your opinion is, or really about this conversation at all *shrugs* 07:52:42 " My father is a linguist (in the has-a-linguistics-degree sense). The most important lesson he ever taught me is not to be a linguist." <<< same with my father and philosophy 07:53:04 your fathers are lame. 07:53:09 Gregor, your dads a linguist, huh 07:53:12 who where 07:53:41 "in the has-a-linguistics-degree sense" 07:53:41 C++/CLI has a USE? 07:53:44 * Sgeo dies inside 07:53:52 His masters in linguistics does little good to his accounting job. 07:53:57 oh, i see 07:53:59 s/to/for/ 07:54:01 so hes not a linguist 07:54:05 On Reddit, people are talking about tying together managed and unmanaged code 07:54:06 hes an accountant who couldnt hack linguistics 07:54:08 Hence the parenthetical. 07:54:12 I. want. to. die. 07:54:16 He has a degree, he hacked it that much. 07:54:22 He couldn't hack a job in it :P 07:54:28 what did he do 07:55:19 AFAIK he got a linguistics degree because linguistics interested him but with no real ambition, then he went "wait I don't actually want to be a professor" and (after getting a masters in a field he couldn't use) became an accountant. 07:55:36 right, but what did he do when he was getting his degree 07:55:45 I have no idea, you'd have to ask him *shrugs* 07:55:57 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/eco8t/when_programming_ccli_this_is_all_that_keeps_me/c174b92 07:56:52 * oerjan euthanizes Sgeo with the saucepan ===\__/ 07:56:55 he thought being an accountant would be more fun than being a professor? 07:57:20 oklopol: Again, you'd have to ask him :P 07:57:45 i'll just assume he is insane 07:57:51 Fair enough. 07:58:05 no other explanation exists 07:58:12 But it fits well with my backstory if I ever want to be a Jewish comedian. 07:58:29 are u jeqish 07:59:01 I'm part-Ashkenazi, and nobody cares whether you're religiously Jewish for you to be a Jewish comedian anyway :P 07:59:20 is it possible to both be religiously Jewish and a Jewish comedian? 07:59:25 i thought jews are like the OPPOSITE of nazis 07:59:27 All I have to do is stand in profile (and maybe hide my hyper-anglo hair) and anybody will be convinced I'm Jewish :P 07:59:33 i thought ardent atheism was a prerequisite for being a jewish comedian 07:59:39 augur: Mmmmm ... yeah, I think so. 07:59:46 Gregor: PROFILE PICS NAO 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:12 I don't think I have one, but I think I have a picture sufficiently revealing of the relevant characteristic. 08:00:13 or is that like a pun, ask-a-nazi 08:00:21 http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30473177&l=32c78c515d&id=1055580469 08:00:26 maybe you can use that in your act 08:00:30 oklopol: Ashkenazi is a race. 08:00:42 o right 08:00:47 This is why people just say they're Jewish :P 08:01:03 nah, you could be german-hungarian too 08:01:17 you look a bit like one of my relatives who's german-hungarian 08:01:44 augur: Most Ashkenazis would have such traits... 08:01:49 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 08:01:53 pikhq: wouldnt doubt it. 08:02:15 What with spreading from Germany to Eastern Europe. 08:02:19 Including Hungary. 08:02:26 Yeah, I was about to say that German-Hungarian could very well be Ashkenazi :P 08:02:56 Gregor: you don't really resemble anything i've ever seen, ever 08:03:10 Anywho, it's all very silly, really I wouldn't care one lick about racial heritage except that the Jewish side of my family does X-D 08:03:44 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 08:03:54 oklopol: Ashkenazi 08:03:59 Plus Brit 08:04:00 I suppose. 08:04:10 Ding ding ding :P 08:04:40 i've been to britland, but i don't know where ashkenazistan is 08:04:56 They moved it to Israel. 08:05:04 I'm actually of surprisingly few heritages for a person whose family on both sides has been in the US for more than a century. 08:05:08 pikhq: X-D 08:05:14 i don't really believe you can say anything about a person's race just from looking at their face 08:05:43 oklopol: "I suspect by the color of that person's skin that they're of a European or Slavic race." 08:05:50 well right color 08:05:54 that i partially believe 08:05:59 Races are defined by physical characteristic, deal with it *shrugs* 08:06:00 And I'm of surprisingly specifically-general heritage set. 08:06:02 because it's very hard to ignore 08:06:06 Just about every Germanic heritage.] 08:06:12 just like your nose 08:06:24 ...which i still don't believe proves anything 08:07:18 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 08:08:00 " Races are defined by physical characteristic, deal with it *shrugs*" <<< i just don't believe humans have the ability to infer things from these characteristics, because i'm not good at it myself 08:08:23 if i'm not good at it, the world should stop talking about it 08:08:30 Some people are, otherwise you just get stereotypes that happen to be true sometimes :P 08:08:42 And this is why the world should stop talking about physical activities. 08:08:51 yes! 08:09:04 We should transcend beyond these physical shackles of bodies and exist as beings of pure energy. 08:09:08 well i'm not particularly bad at those i guess, but they are rather uninteresting 08:09:18 Gregor: yes! 08:09:37 when's the first mass suicide meeting of #esoteric 08:11:06 Ohhh, you missed it. 08:11:13 The rest of us are IRCing from the Next Level. 08:11:18 :( 08:11:20 oh shit! 08:11:43 and somewhere, a bunch of pure energy beings are saying, "fuck this boring mental enlightenment stuff, let's make ourselves some bodies!" 08:12:40 "Hey, you, other energy being in this endless void ... wanna fuck?" "I can't. I have no body." "... shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit." 08:13:14 can't you like mindfuck each other 08:13:17 "Wanna cyber?" 08:13:20 yeah 08:13:35 also you could look at humans have sex and mentalbate 08:13:56 Sorta not the same though, innit X-P 08:14:02 i'm getting hungry -> 08:18:30 I should sleep. 08:22:05 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:23:44 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 08:24:01 Why am I a pope? 08:27:52 how should i know, Mr. Ratzinger? 08:33:29 Sgeo: because some cardinals got together in a room and voted. 08:42:05 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:43:41 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 08:50:08 -!- Sasha2 has joined. 08:52:22 -!- Sasha has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 08:53:58 -!- TLUL has quit (Quit: *disappears in a puff of orange smoke*). 08:57:51 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 08:58:29 -!- oklopol has joined. 09:00:48 That was the most useless Windows Update... 09:01:09 Malware Removal thingy (not that useless I guess) and Live updates 09:02:05 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:03:41 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 09:14:35 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:22:04 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:23:41 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 09:24:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:30:45 Ah, snow. 09:30:59 In late November, too. 09:31:53 lotsa snow here too 09:32:08 snow: check 09:32:31 i can't really see outside 09:32:47 wait actually i can see that there's snow even through the curtains 09:37:06 -!- kar8nga has joined. 09:42:05 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:43:41 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 09:43:52 oklopol: http://www.wellnowwhat.net/blog/?p=434 09:43:58 oerjan too 09:57:09 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 09:58:14 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:58:15 -!- yiyus__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:59:05 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 09:59:06 -!- wareya_ has joined. 10:00:02 -!- yiyus_ has joined. 10:01:30 oklopol, oerjan, ah, but you both live in the frigid northlands. 10:02:05 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:02:06 Meanwhile I live in Edinburgh, which has the most boring climate in Britain. 10:02:10 -!- jix has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:02:11 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:02:11 -!- augur has joined. 10:02:18 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:02:19 -!- jix_ has joined. 10:02:32 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:02:43 -!- yorick has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 10:02:54 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 10:03:30 Hmm, now it seems to have switched to heavy hail. 10:03:44 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 10:04:05 CLEARLY THE WEATHER TOOK YOUR COMMENT AS A CHALLENGE 10:04:15 -!- jix_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:04:20 EXPECT YOUR ROOF TO CAVE IN SOON 10:04:42 -!- jix has joined. 10:08:01 -!- wareya has quit (*.net *.split). 10:08:52 -!- yorick has joined. 10:09:33 there it is again, that strange desire to quote shakespeare 10:17:09 Hmm, now my breath is fogging indoors. 10:19:10 Phantom_Hoover, very cold? 10:19:27 Phantom_Hoover, turn on the radiators then? 10:19:47 Radiators are decadent and capitalist! 10:19:59 Phantom_Hoover, any fireplace? 10:20:10 Also decadent and capitalist! 10:20:24 ... 10:20:33 Phantom_Hoover, why? 10:20:45 Because! 10:22:04 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:23:45 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 10:28:16 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 11:16:37 OK, I am going to make a stand! 11:16:54 The standard Minecraft textures for glass are terrible and I want better ones! 11:18:07 -!- yorick has left (?). 11:33:53 are they too decadent and capitalist 11:35:56 Phantom_Hoover, a stand in what sense? 11:36:04 -!- FireFly has joined. 11:36:09 a concession stand, obviously 11:36:27 made of glass 11:36:31 perhaps 11:53:10 -!- cheater99 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:13:47 oklopol, no, they have some pixels stuck in the middle that completely ruins the view. 12:14:05 yeah 12:14:12 you'd like it to be invisible? 12:14:22 Or have only frames. 12:14:31 ah yes 12:15:35 The current texture is particularly jarring as I have a room with 3 walls and the floor made entirely of glass, and it just looks messy by default. 12:19:02 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: ilua). 12:20:02 Phantom_Hoover: That Painterly texpack has quite a few glass alternatives: http://painterlypack.net/materials.html 12:20:25 Indeed, that is what I am using. 12:49:42 -!- yorick has joined. 12:52:43 I'm going to assume that Fine Structure either isn't finished or that it ends rather abruptly. 12:59:59 中华人民共和国 (testing) 13:01:10 hm was afraid of that 13:03:49 putty apparently allows choosing only _one_ font name globally, which means it is impossible to support even all the characters i _do_ have some font for 13:05:04 hangul, chinese and japanese seem to only be available in separate fonts, say 13:05:36 *support simultaneously 13:06:20 well i guess it might be a mess to support when it wants characters to be the same fixed size, anyway 13:07:08 oh and that kannada thing from yesterday i have no monospace font for, so putty cannot show it at all. 13:25:41 * Phantom_Hoover tries to work out what the hell was going on in the last chapter. 13:38:43 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 13:44:05 -!- yorick has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 13:55:50 -!- yorick has joined. 14:43:35 -!- elliott has joined. 14:46:17 22:05:32 is sprunge.us suitable for linking to from the wiki? 14:46:19 Yes. 14:46:22 22:05:54 oerjan: Pretty sure they recycle pastes. 14:46:24 Not that I know of. 14:46:29 ok then 14:47:30 22:12:08 However, CthulhuIRCd logs exactly what is sent to every client on the channel, with a timestamp. (Hence the rule in SIRCL requiring line-endings to be CRLF even on UNIX) 14:47:31 22:12:28 Creepy 14:47:32 what 14:47:36 22:12:37 It is the requirement of SIRCL that the logs are logged in that way. 14:47:37 22:12:58 Remind me not to give you my password in SIRCL 14:47:39 what??? 14:48:10 22:15:59 You mean I shouldn't tell you that when I was younger 14:48:10 22:16:00 I 14:48:11 22:16:01 --- quit: Sgeo (Quit: Leaving) 14:48:13 that was a wise decision 14:49:12 23:05:42 of course that might not be considered a convincing argument by most foreigners (see: lutefisk) 14:49:16 oerjan: don't say that word! 14:49:57 lutefisk lutefisk lutefisk 14:50:03 (also, mmm) 14:50:50 oerjan: you horrible person 14:53:04 * oerjan _likes_ lutefisk (http://www.airshipentertainment.com/mythcomic.php?date=20100928) 14:53:48 haha, i was about to chastise cpressey for linking directly to his homepage on his userpage without using the template, but he DID use the template 14:54:51 oerjan: no you don't, you've just gone into shock every time you've eaten it 14:54:59 and your body has made you think you like it as a self-defence mechanism 14:55:19 _could_ be 14:55:40 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:58:32 * oerjan recommends reading the menu in that comic 14:59:06 oh wait didn't notice pikhq was online 14:59:10 i memoserv'd him :P 15:02:36 oerjan: it would be very easy to implement slashes in a language like slashes but with regexps :D 15:02:56 "very easy" but still 15:02:57 easi-ER 15:03:40 perhaps 15:07:09 "My son (5) tried to pinch-zoom a photo on my wife's laptop. She explained scrollbars and + and - buttons. He left." --seen randomly on twitter 15:09:34 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:11:10 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 15:29:34 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:30:55 * elliott designs the only font less than a pixel wide! 15:30:59 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 15:31:36 this font would be the standard output format for Turkey Bomb, i assume 15:32:55 oerjan: indeed so 15:33:13 oerjan: (it's actually 2 wide by 3 high, it's just that you can pack 3 subpixels (uglily) into one pixel on an LCD) 15:33:29 oerjan: so each character takes up 2/3 of a pixel... of course you'll want at least one bit of space, so a character+space takes up 3 pixel 15:33:43 oerjan: if you want 2 spaces, that's even more fun because the alignment of the pixels changes each character 15:33:59 see http://distractionware.com/blog/?p=193 :P 15:34:08 but that's 3-wide and 5-high 15:34:15 (when expanded from subpixels to pixels) 15:34:37 * Phantom_Hoover realises suddenly that he didn't read most of "Last Ergs" and hence was utterly confused for the last chapter. 15:35:44 Phantom_Hoover: Ha ha! (No spoilers I haven't read nearly that far.) 15:36:00 Phantom_Hoover: Now you get to read http://qntm.org/ed. 15:36:04 How on earth did I manage to do that... 15:36:34 I mean, it's not as if I could have clicked accidentally or anything, or skipped over it, and I read the first subsection. 15:37:21 * oerjan swats elliott for rickrolling him -----### 15:37:31 just for the principle of it 15:38:17 Phantom_Hoover: You were abducted during that time. 15:40:06 Perhaps I befell the 15:40:26 Phantom_Hoover: Just don't. 15:40:33 I really want to enjoy what I have left to read of it. 15:40:34 I won't. 15:40:40 Where are you right now? 15:41:45 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-11837939 15:41:47 picture is so. perfect. 15:41:58 Phantom_Hoover: I reached the end of The Story So Far. My reading has taken... a hiatus. 15:43:09 elliott, oh, the insanity of trademark law. 15:43:31 Phantom_Hoover: In this case it's not *overly* insane since it'd only apply to social networky things. But yes, the claim should be denied. 15:43:41 Trademark law is the sanest and probably the only justifiable such law. :p 15:44:16 elliott: patent law makes 100% sense in some sectors 15:44:25 it's overstepped its bounds though 15:45:19 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:45:42 coppro: you know we disagree, so why bother presenting your opposing opinion, which i already know, as fact? 15:45:50 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 15:45:57 elliott: because the economic analysis 15:46:08 has been done 15:46:12 many times 15:46:29 coppro: also note that i said "probably" the only, not "the only". 15:46:40 noted 15:46:47 and you know fine well simply saying "No, you're wrong, [my opinion again]!" won't do a single thing, so why take the effort? 15:47:37 because I know more about microeconomics now 15:50:23 coppro: but you're still not presenting me with anything new and it's moer irritating than anything else 15:51:13 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 15:51:37 I also just enjoy pissing you off 15:56:09 -!- zasada has joined. 15:58:15 всем привет 15:59:14 zasada: bcem npnbet 15:59:27 coppro: ah, the good old hate-hate relationship 16:03:03 hmm, the adverts for Windows Phone 7 are actually really good 16:03:14 it doesn't really tempt me to want to buy a smartphone, though, especially not one running Microsoft software 16:03:31 -!- zasada has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:03:48 hmm, anyone here who uses Windows? What should I do on a system whose anti-virus software needs upgrading, but where Firefox seems incapable of downloading executables from the Internet? 16:04:11 (as in, first try with any file, it aborts, second try, the progress bar goes up to 100% and it reports the download as having worked, but the file isn't saved anywhere?) 16:06:45 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:06:49 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 16:07:31 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:09:34 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:11:13 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 16:12:25 -!- Leonidas has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 16:12:39 hmm, the adverts for Windows Phone 7 are actually really good 16:12:41 er, really? 16:12:56 the one i saw was social networking-oriented, and I doubt *that* is your thing 16:13:04 hmm, anyone here who uses Windows? What should I do on a system whose anti-virus software needs upgrading, but where Firefox seems incapable of downloading executables from the Internet? 16:13:06 um, try IE? 16:14:00 carefully aiming IE only at sites knowng to be correct 16:14:07 hmm, might work 16:14:15 ais523: you do realise that modern IE isn't really insecure? 16:14:32 ais523: you'd have to try fairly hard to get infected with it, especially if you have any antivirus (even an old one) 16:14:49 yep, it's just that it's hard enough to teach people "never use IE" 16:14:56 ais523: what AV is it, anyway? 16:14:57 I'm more concerned about why Firefox is failing to download executables 16:15:05 and AVG, up-to-date virus database, but not engine 16:15:10 ugh, AVG 16:15:13 and the engine's almost going to not get new databases, it's so old 16:15:27 I'm entirely willing to install a different one, though, given how annoying AVG's been getting 16:15:49 ais523: I've heard good things about avast!, but I seem to recall its sound-effects when it finds a virus are pretty scary :) 16:16:06 ais523: NOD32 is the best antivirus by far but it's only a trial and after that you either have to infringe on copyright or pay, so yeah. 16:16:36 ais523: oh, there's also been a lot of good things said about http://www.cloudantivirus.com/en/ and it may well be good apart from cashing in on the "cloud" terminology 16:16:45 apparently it's very out-of-the-way 16:17:05 * elliott watches their video, gets rapidly irritated 16:17:19 I was wondering about just MSE, on the basis that it's less irritating than many of the others 16:17:26 do you know of a strong reason not to use it? 16:17:55 ais523: when I last used MSE it wasn't being hyped up yet, just sort of a first release 16:17:59 it's probably decent enough, yes 16:18:18 ais523: why are you using windows, btw? 16:18:20 it's never really been hyped up, but I can't find people with bad things to say about it, which is very out-of-character for Microsoft software 16:18:25 and I'm not, this is someone else's computer 16:19:02 and they're panicking due to the virus database updates going to stop soon, and no obvious way to update the AV 16:20:02 ok, panda cloud antivirus's advert tries to describe how it works; obviously simplified, but the simplified version is, at least, *really* stupid 16:20:16 ("it learns about viruses from your web browsing in the GLOBAL INTERNET COMMUNITY! no need for a virus lab!") 16:21:57 ais523: ok, round about now you have to stop me doing what i'm doing 16:23:15 ais523: please? :p 16:23:43 YOU ARE DOOMED 16:25:14 oerjan: i should never have entered this rabbit hole 16:26:26 elliott, is AVG the one noted for confusing the Windows system files for viruses? 16:28:14 Phantom_Hoover: dunno; it's noted for being so mediocre it's bad in my book 16:29:34 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:30:57 hmm, seems like there might actually be decent experimental evidence for precognition; oh joy, look at that worldview go 16:31:13 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 16:32:08 um is that about those recent Bem experiments (which i thought were pretty swiftly discredited) 16:33:02 Wait, there's a new version of Golly! 16:33:08 MUST GET 16:33:45 basically Bem doesn't seem to understand/care that you have to form the hypothesis to test _before_ doing the actual experiment to test it 16:34:04 oerjan: ah, it is; the article is too old to mention that it was discredited 16:34:49 oerjan: I still think retropsychokinesis is pretty likely (although probably not p>=0.5) due to the results of http://www.fourmilab.ch/rpkp/ 16:35:50 although actually 16:36:00 * elliott checks the updates to see if he did find it to be statistically significant after all 16:37:15 "For example, a recent article by James Spottiswoode in the Journal of Scientific Exploration suggests that anomalous cognition events occur with an enhanced probability at times close to 13:30 hours Local Sidereal Time." 16:37:16 X-D 16:37:53 i saw that mentioned in the recent reddit threads about Bem's experiment 16:38:35 oerjan: that quote, or the retropsychokinesis project? 16:38:57 the sidereal time connection 16:38:59 i don't really believe at all in non-retropsychokinetic precognition, since it's really that causality doesn't seem so solid to me :) 16:42:39 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 16:45:03 elliott, wait, the results you got yourself? 16:45:25 Phantom_Hoover: no, the results of the project in total 16:45:34 What were they? 16:46:56 Phantom_Hoover: see the link 16:47:01 cba to read them :P 16:47:24 fourmilab is an awesome site btw, john walker of autocad fame 16:48:24 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 16:54:50 Vorpal: you were right, ElliottOS just got redesigned 16:54:56 it's better now though! 16:55:33 elliott, redesigned how? (just major points, I don't have time for half an hour of discussion) 16:55:37 Phantom_Hoover: guess what just became even further away from completion? :P 16:55:53 Would it be @, by any chance? 16:56:03 Vorpal: well, really it was more like I was holding two separate design paths for an OS in my head, and I'd selected a Lispy, impure one as ElliottOS because the other one sounded like A Scary Pain. 16:56:31 What was the other one? 16:56:45 -!- Leonidas_ has joined. 16:56:49 Vorpal: Now I'm reading the Synthesis paper, thought "hmm, yeah, specialisation could actually work", read up on the Futamura projections, read up on lazy specialisation, and then read (I've seen it before, but re-read) how lazy specialisation lets you implement pure Functional Reactive Programming without the infamous space leak 16:57:02 and now suddenly the OS is purely functional, specialiser-based, and sits on FRP. 16:57:23 -!- Leonidas_ has changed nick to Leonidas. 16:57:59 elliott, FRP? 16:58:45 Vorpal: The Holy Grail. The IO monad, although it sits in a pure language, is impure; it has effects, and state; IO operations are not composable units obeying mathematical laws like pure, denotational functions are. 16:59:13 Vorpal: Functional reactive programming drags the rest of the universe into the opalescent pool of purity. 16:59:19 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_reactive_programming 16:59:33 Vorpal: It's pretty similar to event-based systems, except easier to use, and purely functional. 16:59:34 sounds impressive. *bookmarks for future reading* 16:59:36 It is very nice. 16:59:47 Vorpal: Well, the reading is mostly papers, and a lot of them have ideas that their authors now consider seriously out of date :-) 17:00:02 Vorpal: http://conal.net/blog/ and http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/ are worth reading for "the latest thing", most likely. 17:00:09 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:00:10 Conal's especially. 17:02:20 Vorpal: basically "there are implementations of FRP that work, but they're not *general* to all uses of FRP; general implementations tend to have serious problems like space leaks. It is not clear why it is easy to implement one use of FRP, but difficult to implement it in general." -- so obviously the reading material is a bit tangled 17:02:51 Vorpal: sort of like physics; there are plenty of theories that work in their domain -- quantum mechanics, relativity -- but for some reason it's very hard to make something that puts it all together 17:03:17 mhm 17:03:23 Vorpal: but, guess what, lazy specialisation seems to actually solve the problem and allow a very simple, general FRP implementation without space leaks. :) Of course, the problem is implementing the lazy specialiser. 17:03:25 -!- yorick has joined. 17:03:54 the last section of http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/2009/07/07/emphasizing-specialization/ shows specialisation making FRP work 17:04:08 elliott, I really don't have time to read lot of stuff atm 17:04:11 elliott, bbl 17:04:16 Vorpal: just linkdumping 17:05:41 -!- augur has joined. 17:05:44 Oh, and http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/2009/07/07/emphasizing-specialization/#comment-863 is especially interesting; augustss doing specialisation for work in Actual Practice, specialising to LLVM 17:06:22 Of course a useful specialiser-based system requires runtime code generation, and it just so happens that it all neatly fits together if you do it as an OS :) 17:10:02 You and your weird OS talk. 17:10:19 Phantom_Hoover: Says Mr. Lisp86. 17:10:23 "Lazy specialisation". What is this? 17:10:29 Phantom_Hoover: Complicated. 17:11:14 Phantom_Hoover: A specialiser is a piece of code in language A that takes a function written in language B, and a value written in language B, and outputs a program in language C that acts like the function written in language B, except with one less argument. 17:11:33 You could say that it compiles (f x), but in fact it *rewrites* f's code so that all mentions of x are eliminated, replaced with the argument, and then the resulting program is simplified and optimised. 17:11:39 Lazy specialisation is that, except lazy. 17:11:55 Phantom_Hoover: This is a lovely, accessible introduction to specialisers, and why they're so awesome: http://blog.sigfpe.com/2009/05/three-projections-of-doctor-futamura.html 17:12:01 Phantom_Hoover: Read it. Read it now. :p 17:12:13 I keep parsing "Futamura" as "Futurama". 17:12:18 Of course you can set A=B=C if you want and all that. 17:12:21 (for the languages) 17:12:24 Phantom_Hoover: You and everyone else. 17:14:54 Phantom_Hoover: Oh, and all of this is proof that the esoteric will inherit the earth; if you squint a bit, running specialisers on themselves is an awful lot like writing a quine. 17:15:33 Those fools in the practical computing world laughed at us! But we shall show them all! 17:16:27 Phantom_Hoover: Yes! Now keep reading. 17:16:33 Mwahaha rabbit hole 17:19:32 * Phantom_Hoover runs away from the rabbitt. 17:19:36 *rabbit 17:20:32 Phantom_Hoover: No! Keep reading! YOU MUST 17:20:47 I've read the whole article already, silly. 17:20:59 Now I'm trying to stop myself from reading the book. 17:21:34 -!- Goosey has joined. 17:21:59 Phantom_Hoover: And now *lazy* specialisation: http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/2009/07/07/emphasizing-specialization/ 17:22:10 Nooooooo 17:22:39 Phantom_Hoover: By the way, PyPy, the Python implementation in Python, strays very close to specialisation; they automatically generate their JIT from their interpreter. 17:22:51 Mhm. 17:22:53 Phantom_Hoover: In fact, they have code that transforms any interpreter written in their restricted variant of Python, RPython, into a JIT, IIRC. 17:22:58 And the JITs perform well. 17:23:12 [[The interpreter implements the full Python language in a restricted subset, called RPython (Restricted Python). Unlike standard Python, RPython is statically typed, to allow efficient compilation.[2] 17:23:13 The translator is a tool chain that analyzes RPython code and translates it to a lower-level language, such as C, Java bytecode or Common Intermediate Language. It also allows for pluggable Garbage collectors as well as optionally enabling Stackless. Finally it includes a JIT generator which builds a just-in-time compiler into the interpreter, given a few annotations in the interpreter source code. The generated JIT compiler is a tracing JIT[3].]] 17:23:15 A JIT compiler or code? 17:23:22 Phantom_Hoover: ? See above. 17:23:39 Ah. 17:23:52 Phantom_Hoover: So, basically, the PyPy people decided not to bother writing a fast Python compiler of any sort. 17:24:35 Phantom_Hoover: They just decided to define a restricted variant of Python, RPython, write a translator from RPython to (various low-level languages), and then write a translator from a lightly-annotated interpreter of a language written in RPython, to a JIT compiler for that language. 17:24:51 And then they implemented a Python interpreter in RPython, and applied the JIT-maker to it. 17:24:59 Very, very close to specialisation. 17:25:17 Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, read http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/2009/07/07/emphasizing-specialization/ and you'll NEVER WRITE A COMPILER AGAIN EVER even if you never have. 17:26:36 hey :) 17:26:36 -!- Goosey has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:26:59 -!- Goosey has joined. 17:27:36 What's up? 17:28:20 Goosey: insanity! 17:28:33 Again? 17:28:42 Yes! 17:28:49 Oh well, I'm trying to devise an insane esolang. 17:28:57 something based off of brainfuck 17:29:14 maybe each element is actually a stack :P 17:29:19 but I want it to be useful 17:29:24 *more* 17:29:28 without making it easier 17:29:39 Goosey: Protip: "brainfuck derivative" and "useful", as two goals, produce 99% of the stuff on the wiki. 17:29:45 The wiki is a ... deluge of mostly uninteresting languages. 17:29:51 I suggest relaxing one of the goals :P 17:29:53 Lol 17:30:06 Thought that might be the case :P 17:30:32 Goosey: I suggest relaxing the "useful" goal, who needs that :) 17:30:38 Yeah 17:30:41 esolangs are for fun 17:30:54 Not usefulness! ;P 17:30:58 People who bloat *Brainfuck* confuse me to no end. 17:31:13 alternatively 17:31:33 Crazy idea: an interpreter.... for MATHEMATICS. 17:31:45 Phantom_Hoover: wat. 17:31:46 I want to make the pointers be able to move based on what's in the current element 17:31:55 phantom, they already have that :/ 17:31:58 elliott, I said it was crazy. 17:32:06 Goosey: they do? 17:32:09 Goosey, proof-checkers? No, they don't count. 17:32:14 he probably means mathematica 17:32:20 :/ 17:32:27 Goosey: what then? 17:32:44 It would have the GUT embedded in it, and stuff would be interpreted by operating on that within a wider context. 17:32:53 well 17:33:01 It's not as extended as I guess you want :/ 17:33:11 Goosey: what were you thinking of, though? 17:33:18 Cadabra is one 17:33:32 OK, it's a CAS. 17:33:41 Seems to be field-theory oriented. 17:33:50 I guess you odnt want scilab then xD 17:34:11 Field theory is proper mathematics. Look at all of the Greek letters! 17:34:31 Also I have this mathomatic thing 17:34:38 calculates polynomials and other stuff 17:34:38 Phantom_Hoover: http://www.math.rutgers.edu/~zeilberg/pj.html, http://www.math.rutgers.edu/~zeilberg/GT.html 17:34:55 Phantom_Hoover: most of the proofs in the former are generated with Maple programs, the entire latter book was generated with a Maple program searching for geometric proofs (source is available) 17:34:55 Fun fact: the ratio of Latin to other symbols determines how proper a given piece of mathematics is. 17:34:58 Phantom_Hoover: not quite what you want, but COOL. 17:35:30 Zeilberger is the ultra-ultra-ultrafinitist, yes? 17:36:04 Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but don't let that bother you; those two pages are really awesome. 17:36:28 Phantom_Hoover: "Shalosh B. Ekhad" is what he calls the author of his program-written stuff. 17:36:30 (It's his computer.) 17:37:15 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if Coq can even /handle/ ZFC. 17:37:32 It can't on some levels, since it hates general recursion. 17:37:55 Phantom_Hoover: Yes, it can. 17:37:59 I am not sure what you think general recursion has to do with it. 17:38:07 Phantom_Hoover: A model of ZFC comes with Coq. 17:38:31 Phantom_Hoover: http://coq.inria.fr/V8.2pl1/contribs/ZFC.html 17:38:31 It was a munged thought squeezed through my brain into unrecognisability. 17:38:52 Gyaah, I hate multi-file Coq libraries. 17:38:58 I never know where to start. 17:39:20 Phantom_Hoover: Axioms is probably a good place. 17:39:26 Actually, that extends to multi-file /anythings/ 17:39:32 elliott, I shouldn't think so. 17:39:36 Phantom_Hoover: Just click a random file, then click on its includes until you get to a file without includes. 17:39:39 Phantom_Hoover: In this case, that's http://coq.inria.fr/V8.2pl1/contribs/ZFC.Sets.html. 17:39:41 Then go out from there. 17:39:56 Thanks. 17:41:19 * Phantom_Hoover remembers the pain of wrestling with LTac... 17:41:29 Theorem tout_vide_est_Vide : 17:41:33 LOL FRENCH 17:41:48 As well as the weirdness of seeing normal functions defined using it 17:44:18 Urgh, Cadabra is written in C++. 17:44:27 We won't be having any of that, now. 17:44:48 [[simple induction 1]] 17:44:58 There's simple induction??? 17:45:18 Is "1" a reference to the first argument? 17:45:30 * Phantom_Hoover decides to reduce his confusion with ProofGeneral steppery. 17:49:18 SO MANY TACTICS 17:50:18 SO LITTLE TIME 17:51:20 -!- zzo38 has joined. 17:52:02 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:55:05 lol 17:55:07 man 2 kill 17:58:59 What? 18:00:45 Do you have any question/opinion about that manual page? Or, what is it? 18:01:32 Phantom_Hoover: I've invented a vaguely horrible thing. 18:01:46 elliott: What did you invent? 18:01:51 And how vague is it? 18:02:05 zzo38: Meansort and mediansort, and it's not vague at all, just vaguely horrible. 18:02:28 That is what I meant, how vague is it horrible? 18:02:37 And can you show what you have? 18:03:53 Sure. 18:04:08 http://sprunge.us/fJJC Replace the calls with mean with calls to median to get another kind of sort. 18:04:13 mediansort is probably faster. 18:04:17 In fact it is, objectively. 18:05:30 ha! it doesn't sort properly 18:05:31 Median doesn't compute the median 18:05:42 Deewiant: INDEED sir 18:05:58 Deewiant: in fact median is completely unworkable in this case since it requires sorting the list to do it simply :D 18:06:07 ok let's pretend median isn't there 18:06:13 still doesn't work 18:06:14 wooo 18:06:27 65150, 87, 6319, 15206, 26202, 52131, 17404, 59691, 54273, 61926, 63389, 3098, 6615, 25222, 60300, 1027, 26110, 33019, 51582, 62569, 13940, 24634, 51787, 54117, 55077, 18:06:28 pathetic 18:06:33 oh wait 18:06:34 return msort(a) + msort(b) 18:06:35 lolz stupid 18:06:56 recursing msort() around that breaks python's recursion limit :) 18:07:12 $ python avgsort.py 18:07:12 Segmentation fault 18:07:13 $ 18:07:17 ok raising that limit is not a good idea 18:07:37 It does not seem the best kind of sorting algorithm, there are a few problems with its ways. 18:07:39 So much for Python 18:07:46 Deewiant: C implementations welcome :p 18:08:28 Are those the only two options? 18:08:33 Yes, I think in C it could be done better, but it is still unsure if it is better than anything else and if so in what ways, what data? 18:08:41 Deewiant: no, you can do it in haskell too. 18:09:07 wait i had an infinite loop 18:09:08 duh 18:09:12 well infinite recursion 18:09:13 Like, you can make the C program to calculate the mean while partitioning. 18:09:17 i think i give up on this thing :) 18:09:29 (Or just the sum; the mean is not needed.) 18:10:13 true 18:11:11 But the code looks like it will work badly if the length of the list is not a power of two. 18:12:58 But I cannot know for sure. 18:19:55 elliott, I just remembered that you asked me to remind you of something 18:20:03 (been too busy to remember it before) 18:20:18 Vorpal: what was it 18:20:27 elliott, "mine from torch marked cave" iirc 18:20:38 Vorpal: already done :P 18:20:52 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 18:20:57 elliott, ah 18:28:47 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 18:29:20 I removed the license exception now, and made a few other changes. http://sprunge.us/fHTJ 18:30:48 I would also like you to tell me if you think there is anything wrong with the ANSI emulation in the anstomzm.w program. 18:36:07 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 18:36:34 Therefore, it must be a different timezone, I think!! 18:38:39 7:38 pm there apparently 18:38:43 but he is on a 25 hour day 18:39:52 Why is 25 hours? Does it have anything to do with daylight saving time? 18:40:19 elliott: If you want a Haskell version of your non-working sort http://sprunge.us/ggef 18:40:43 zzo38: No, it's oerjan's fucked up sleep schedule 18:40:59 Deewiant: I think you win the Most Involved Way of Implementing a Broken Sort Algorithm of the Year. 18:41:02 award. 18:41:19 How's that 18:41:34 elliott: And you can win the Broken Sort award, then? 18:42:15 Is the longest day of the year, when we have to switch off daylight saving time? 18:42:16 Deewiant: Wasting vectors on that :P 18:42:57 elliott: Too painful to see something like partition running on linked lists :-P 18:43:03 Now the real question is to figure out some actual purpose of this algorithm (or a variation), other than sorting! 18:43:21 Scrambling! 18:43:25 It's quite bad at that too. 18:43:45 Yes, I think so! 18:45:24 It is bad at that, too! 18:53:59 x87? 18:54:04 What the hell is that.. 18:54:44 Goosey: The floating point coprocessor on the x86. 18:54:51 Now integrated into the CPU. 18:54:59 Oh I see 18:55:25 The wikileaks leak is out. 18:57:05 Among other things, it reveals that the US embassies form a global espionage network. 18:57:46 lol 18:57:58 "Wow! Automated equational theorem proving for (a subset of) Haskell: http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~ws506/tryzeno/ -- the future yet nearer 18:57:58 I think that is what embassies are usually for... 18:57:58 <3 18:58:13 oh my god this is awesome 18:58:15 pikhq: http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~ws506/tryzeno/ this this this 18:58:17 Goosey: No, they are *not meant for espionage on everybody and everything*. 18:58:48 elliott: :D 18:58:55 pikhq: That has been my concern always, a bit. 18:59:39 pikhq: prop_reverse_idem xs = 18:59:39 reverse (reverse xs) === xs 18:59:41 pikhq: And it just proves it. 18:59:55 elliott: :) 19:01:59 pikhq: It's a conspiracy man, they are.... 19:02:32 Goosey: are you aware of the definition of "conspiracy" 19:02:35 Goosey: quick -- who did 9/11? 19:02:41 Aliens 19:03:04 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:03:05 I'm fucking with you, I don't buy any of that bullshit. :/ Just so you know.. 19:03:09 Goosey: just checking :P 19:03:13 Goosey: It's not much of a crazy conspiracy theory if the evidence for it *is coming from leaks of internal communications*. ;) 19:03:25 Though it could quite possibly be an actual conspiracy. :P 19:03:28 No! Terrorists did 9/11 attack but after the attack, the government made up a secret conspiracy to do things about it that do not work, because it is a conspiracy for something else! 19:03:51 zzo38: They didn't keep it all that secret. They just convinced the public at large that it works. 19:03:53 zzo38: now do you actually believe that 19:04:55 Those plans apparently existed before 9/11 happened, but 9/11 was convient excuse to take them into use... And I wouldn't rule out intentional fsckup (a'la Pearl Harbor)... 19:04:59 Well, it is partially because of stupid government agencies, but also because of conspiracy, too. Of course the things they try to do to stop terrorism, mostly is completely wrong and useless and does not even make sense. 19:05:20 Ilari: Yes, that. 19:06:27 My anstomzm program has a "jokes" entry in the index. 19:06:32 "Mogensen gives a very elegant partial evaluator in pure lambda calculus, which optimize as expected with the Futamura projections (see Dan’s post). This partial evaluator works on higher order abstract syntax, taking and returning descriptions of terms rather than the terms themselves. Essentially all it is is (very simple) machinery describing how to evaluate under a lambda." links to http://tinyurl.com/cnyyph, behind paywall 19:07:40 http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/2009/05/04/lazy-partial-evaluation/ in general... 19:08:18 "We are currently under a mass distributed denial of service attack." -- Wikileaks. 19:09:22 pikhq: " fib = lub [\0 -> 0, \1 -> 1, \n -> assuming (n >= 2) $ fib (n-1) + fib (n-2) ] -- valid, reasonably efficient #haskell (using Data.Lub)" 19:09:28 http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/lub/0.1.6/doc/html/Data-Lub.html 19:10:02 elliott: The leak from Wikileaks has gone out via various news organizations because of that DOS. 19:10:15 DoS? 19:10:18 right? 19:10:25 Goosey: DDoS. 19:10:35 Goosey: why? 19:10:37 same thing :P 19:10:54 Anyways I couldnt get on it either :/ 19:12:20 It is almost time for Hypernet -- no denial of service attacks, no need for unique addresses, and it works even if the government takes away your internet. 19:12:35 "Here is a statement from Hillary Clinton, who ordered a secret intelligence campaign targeting the leadership of the UN, including the secretary general, Ban Ki-moon and the permanent security council representatives from China, Russia, France and the UK." 19:12:42 zzo38: And what exactly is hypernet? 19:13:08 elliott: Gotta admit, the US has balls. 19:14:25 elliott: I have idea, and have think of it much, but do not know exactly. But it must use strong security, non-centralized, hash code, non-physical addressing, and transfer over any medium (including ham radio and barcodes, as well as internet). 19:14:26 No, the US is just being ran by idiots 19:14:46 Goosey: they're not stupid, they're very competent... and they're not exactly evil, they really believe what they're doing is best. 19:14:49 they're deluded and wrong. 19:15:04 They're naive. 19:15:07 and dangerous. 19:15:14 I do not think the government even knows everything about itself. 19:15:40 Goosey: Their actions are certainly not that of idiots, *in general*. 19:15:58 But rather a bunch of people who believe that the fourth reich is a good idea. 19:16:22 Not really, the actions are good sometimes, but they are trying to reach a goal which is idiotic in itself.. 19:16:40 I'm thinking of Obama specifically 19:16:55 "As a hypothetical hacker who might enjoy wikileaks, I may consider the possibility that my attacks on wikileaks would be both obviously ineffective in stopping this release, and simultaneously increase the hype surrounding the release of the information, to its benefit." 19:17:18 meh, this is boring, let's talk about computing 19:17:41 -!- cheater00 has joined. 19:17:43 Oh, Obama's not significantly different from most of the other Presidents we've had. It honestly feels like that job is about as relevant as student body president at a school. 19:18:18 "Little Green Footballs blogged my Wikileaks tweets" 19:18:29 Larry Sanger: because getting on Little Green Footballs is an achievement, not shameful. 19:19:04 "El Pais, Le Monde, Speigel, Guardian & NYT will publish many US embassy cables tonight, even if WikiLeaks goes down" 19:19:06 " @wikileaks unlikely: if legit news sources publish cables not avail. on Wikileaks, they become primary sources & risk repercussions" 19:19:10 Larry Sanger: I know more than the newsappers! 19:19:16 (Guardian tweeted that they would publish them specifically.) 19:19:18 <3 The Guardian. 19:19:52 It's Speigel's cover story for tomorrow. 19:20:17 Likely for the others as well. 19:20:28 And ♥ The Guardian. 19:20:29 Goosey: Do you know of MegaZeux? I even made some games on MegaZeux. Did you? 19:24:08 Never heard of it.. 19:24:12 Let me look it up 19:24:31 -!- yorick has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:25:04 Goosey: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/mzx_extended/ 19:25:15 What do you guys think of an implementation of brainfuck with a 3D array of stacks? 19:25:37 Goosey: Write something like that on the wiki, if you like to. 19:25:48 I don't have the compiler or anything yet 19:25:52 Well, it makes a large class of algorithms simpler while still being a tarpit. 19:26:11 Goosey: That is OK; just write the description on the wiki. Add the compiler later 19:26:24 I don't have an interpreter either, but alright..:P 19:26:33 -!- yorick has joined. 19:26:54 For instance, it makes arrays not a complete pain. 19:26:58 Goosey: That is OK; you can add the interpreter later. Just write the description at first, is OK. 19:27:06 Goosey: Make it an infinite-D array of infinite-D arrays of infinite-D arrays ... 19:27:06 Okay :D 19:27:12 ;/ 19:27:14 lol 19:27:15 Many articles on the wiki are for unimplemented things (some of which are unimplementable!) 19:27:24 Goosey: who said i'm joking 19:27:32 Let me create an account then :D 19:28:25 One idea I have, is if you have a variant of FlooP (described in Hofstadter's book) with the REDPROGRAM command built-in. 19:28:26 So shoudl I put it in list of ideas? 19:28:35 should* 19:28:35 elliott: Now *that's* an interesting topological space. 19:28:45 How much more powerful does that make it? 19:28:57 pikhq: the only kind of data is addresses 19:29:05 which are, um, let's think 19:29:06 Goosey: In the list of ideas? It depends if the description is complete or not. 19:29:17 pikhq: a fully-qualified address is an infinite list of an infinite list of naturals 19:29:27 If the description is fully proper, put in the language list and add the "Unimplemented" category. Otherwise, just put your ideas in the list of ideas. 19:29:35 pikhq: a partially-qualified address (i.e. printing to a metainfiniteDarray) is a finite list of an infinite list of naturals 19:29:36 Okay 19:29:48 pikhq: and that's the only kind of data you have, every object is indistinguishable, all you have is addresses 19:29:50 pikhq: good luck computing anything 19:29:52 pikhq: i guess you could like 19:29:54 Oh, then there are those languages that are implemenetable and implemented, but impossible to implement efficiently. 19:29:58 move meta-infinite-D-arrays around 19:30:09 and then say like 19:30:12 given a virtual address 19:30:14 get the "real" address 19:30:16 i.e. move X to Y 19:30:23 means that virtual address Y resolves to real address X 19:30:25 and that's all you have or something 19:30:46 I've never made a new page....how? xD 19:31:24 Goosey: Enter the name of the page in the URL and then edit 19:31:30 oh 19:31:32 that's easy 19:31:32 There are other ways, too. 19:32:29 (I have designed one such turing tarpit and even implemented it). I sure as heck wouldn't even want to try running "99 bottles" on it... 19:32:44 Anyone who has plaed MegaZeux before, try this game: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/ASCMZXTO/ASCMZXTO.ZIP 19:33:11 IIRC, hello world program took 15 seconds to run in the first interpretter version (I later optimized it down to 40 milliseconds). 19:34:00 And still about my other question? How much more powerful do you think it would make it if you make a variant of FlooP but with the REDPROGRAM command added? And what would happen if instead you made a variant of BlooP with the REDPROGRAM command, instead? 19:35:07 (Of course, REDPROGRAM is impossible to actually implement.) 19:35:57 Any reference about REDPROGRAM? 19:36:09 ineiros_: your map image files are quite large. 5 second processing on my old computer cuts it by almost half. (advpng -z1) 19:36:25 Ilari: In Hofstadter's book. But I can tell you what it is, too. 19:39:25 Heh... If one instantiated the grammar class in that unimplementable-efficently esolang with unrestricted grammars (isntead complements of context-free grammars), the result would be super-turing (in fact, AH-Sigma-2) 19:40:10 O, so that is how you specify computational classes of super-turing! I did not know that, before. 19:40:53 Instatiation with complements of context-free grammars results in turing-complete langage. 19:43:25 Give turing machine halting oracle for AH-Sigma-n, and the result can decide all problems in AH-Delta_(n+1), Detect all yes answers for AH-Sigma_(n+1) and detect all no answers for AH-Pi_(n+1) (without oracle the corresponding classes are are AH-Delta_1 = R, AH-Sigma_1 = RE and AH-Pi_1 = co-RE). 19:43:28 # Type-generic expressions using the _Generic keyword (#define cbrt(X) _Generic((X), long double: cbrtl, default: cbrt, float: cbrtf)(X)) 19:43:33 coming soon to a c1x near you 19:47:00 Hm 19:47:08 what do you call parts of a stack, elements? 19:47:54 pikhq: Do you need another reason not to use GNU software? 19:47:59 pikhq: 'Cause I've got one! http://sprunge.us/TPPe 19:48:27 pikhq: (or, In Which Inexplicably Assholish IRC Moron Who I Try And Aid Turns Out To Be An Inetutils Developer) 19:48:30 Oh, you're talking to ams. *Fun*. 19:48:33 elliott: since you're new .. ams has nothing to do with nix .. he just enjoys being rude to people here :/ 19:48:48 He is best known as an asshole who should be banned from all the IRC channels. 19:49:19 The GNU operating system! Brought to you by Drepper and ams! 19:49:37 pikhq: this was in #nixos, which I somehow doubt he actually uses 19:49:54 He is such an asshole. 19:49:59 Not to mention a moron. 19:50:08 never encountered him before. that fact is now plainly clear to me 19:50:26 He's one of the few guys who actively develops Hurd. 19:51:41 pikhq: but nobody *needs* a reason not to use hurd :) 19:51:43 it is the reason 19:51:55 pikhq: wanna help me tarpit a microkernel interface???!?!! 19:51:56 eat shit L4 19:52:36 pikhq: anyway good to know the maintainer of GNU's "ping" among other things doesn't even know shit about free() :) 19:53:48 Phantom_Hoover: stop stalkin' me. 19:54:12 pikhq: http://sprunge.us/gXiR 19:54:18 pikhq: Gogogo refine and address problems :P 19:54:34 pikhq: A problem I didn't mention is that just about any page-based IPC solution has the problem of a malicious program borking the page / two processes writing to the page at once. 19:55:39 hmm, TIL that Python has while-else and for-else loops 19:56:06 also, I remember reading a comment on reddit, thinking "that seems exactly like ehird's opinion", then looking at who wrote it and seeing it was ehird 19:56:11 ais523: :D what was it? 19:56:18 about ESR and the Jargon File 19:56:20 ais523: ah yes 19:56:24 I'm surprised that one got upvoted at all 19:56:33 you think your opinion on the matter is unpopular? 19:56:54 also, I come into contact with far too many people who don't understand free() at the moment 19:56:56 ais523: esr is rather popular, although admittedly he has been called out a lot more recently 19:57:02 occupational hazard of teaching C 19:57:14 the C students are doing so much worse than the Java students... 19:57:15 ais523: are any of them gnu maintainers? 19:57:27 Teaching someone C as a first language is just stupid. 19:57:36 Bad programming is done in any programming language. 19:57:43 Oh, and how did those students "replace" sizeof with size_t? 19:57:45 elliott: they're masters' students, in theory they know other languages 19:57:46 You don't see what the machine's doing, but you have to deal with what the machine's doing anyway; it can't really equip you for that at all. 19:57:54 Ilari: because sizeof wasn't in NetBeans' autocomplete 19:57:56 ais523: they're masters' students?!?!?!?! 19:58:00 never mind that they'd been told not to use it 19:58:06 ais523: i was thinking like clueless undergrads 19:58:08 ais523: w. t. f. 19:58:15 I like this idea 19:58:16 elliott: yep, which means that many of them are coming from other universities, and many not have a legitimate first degree 19:58:19 but it seems useless 19:58:21 elliott: Remember: most "programmers" genuinely *suck*. 19:58:26 Goosey: who cares, this is #esoteric 19:58:39 elliott: You are far above average simply because you grok C. 19:58:45 I can perform something like 19:58:52 the people learning Java for the first time are first-year undergrads, and much better than the masters students 19:58:54 pikhq: i'm not sure grokking c is a useful skill :) 19:58:56 0{++>--<} 19:59:08 and then whenever 0 shows up in the code, it's replaced 19:59:10 hmm, that looks like an esolang all right 19:59:10 pikhq: grocking assembly, yes; grocking haskell/lisp/whatever, yes; C? it's a bit of a hermaphrodite language 19:59:15 and replaced with what? 19:59:18 Goosey: what if you do +{++}? 19:59:22 what is contained in the brackets 19:59:23 ais523: with the body of the {}, one assumes 19:59:31 only commands that aren't built in 19:59:39 characters that would otherwise be a comment 19:59:42 elliott: understanding C means that you understand what the processor is actually doing at the asm level, generally speaking 20:00:04 ais523: hmm... i'm not sure 20:00:08 I can't even imagine how one could replace sizeof in any manner (no matter how wrong) with size_t... 20:00:09 But I dont know, it seems to defeat the purpose of bf a little.. 20:00:11 not in actual asm statements 20:00:11 ais523: anyone who says "C/C++" is clearly defying that 20:00:12 elliott: Understanding C means that you have a modicum of intelligence and understand the current lingua franca. 20:00:19 ais523: because C++ is very far removed from the machine 20:00:24 ais523: and a lot of people treat C like C++ without features 20:00:30 elliott: my experience is that people mean two different things by C++ 20:00:32 pikhq: not sure c is the lingua franca, probably java is :P 20:00:42 I write a lot programming with C and using bitwise operations and other things in C, including Enhanced CWEB. 20:00:53 ais523: "C with Classes" and "MetaFunctionalTransmogrifier (with pointers underneath but NEVER USE THEM)"? 20:00:57 elliott: I'm fairly certain the FFI for every language goes through C. 20:00:58 one set of people are the ones who write std::auto_ptr<> everywhere, those are the people who understand C++ as C++, and it's a completely different language from C 20:01:05 and the other set are those who use C++ just for the // comments 20:01:11 :D 20:01:23 But modern C compilers can still use // comments even without C++ mode. 20:01:25 ais523: they usually use classes too 20:01:26 Tell me, does it defeat the purpose of bf? 20:01:28 but not much 20:01:28 ais523, I understand C despite having resolved not to go into programming. 20:01:36 And Enhanced CWEB supports // style comments even if your C compiler does not. 20:01:39 Goosey: everything defeats the point of bf, but it might not defeat the point of $your_language :) 20:01:42 (seriously, I met someone with that opinion a while ago, although I think he may have been trolling; he was deliberately taking a Microsoft fanboy viewpoint, which is trollish in most places on Freenode) 20:01:48 :/ 20:01:50 I hypothesise that this is the essential reason almost all programmers suck. 20:01:50 I see 20:02:05 Those who can actually program go into maths or proper CS. 20:02:07 I don't know, I want to keep it minimalistic, so for now, I'll leave it out. 20:02:38 you won't likely beat BF at BF's purpose (most BF derivatives are awful command substitutions), but you can beat it at something else, and many langs do 20:02:38 ais523: the viewpoint that C++ is useful for // comments? heh 20:02:39 There are lot of people who simply can't program in any language. 20:02:49 ais523: also, there's one more group: Slava Pestovs, who use C++ because it has namespaces and nothing else 20:02:54 elliott: when pressed, he said and the occasional class 20:02:56 Ilari: And a lot of those get paid to program. 20:02:58 the only member of this group is Slava Pestov 20:02:58 or words to that effect 20:03:10 http://factor-language.blogspot.com/2009/05/factor-vm-ported-to-c.html 20:03:13 (title is actually C++) 20:03:25 oh, incidentally, double-free working forces programs to leak memory, there's no way to implement it otherwise 20:03:28 // comments is C++ feature, but usable in many C compilers (it is meaningless to put two / tokens together) 20:03:38 zzo38: it's a C99 feature as well 20:03:48 also, //**/ is legal C89 20:03:53 oh, incidentally, double-free working forces programs to leak memory, there's no way to implement it otherwise 20:03:53 but people generally don't use it 20:03:58 elliott: There's also Oleg. 20:04:02 erm, couldn't free(X) just fail silently if X is not allocated? 20:04:13 -!- wxl has joined. 20:04:23 freeing NULL /is/ legal, by the way 20:04:30 elliott: the issue is that something else might have been allocated in the meantime 20:04:32 And "fizzbuzz program" being interview question tells something... For any serious programmer, that task is fscking joke... 20:04:34 ais523: O, //**/ I forgot about that. But it is still not sensible? 20:04:46 elliott: It can also launch the missiles. 20:04:46 then, your double free deallocates data elsewhere in your program 20:04:47 ais523: ah 20:04:48 elliott: It also depnds a lot about how memory management is implemented? 20:05:14 glibc will stackdump if it notices a double-free, which it will if the address wasn't reallocated meanwhile, and there's an environment variable to tell it to ignore and keep on running 20:05:18 I hope nobody actually /uses/ it 20:05:33 ais523: I used that backtrace to fix a bug in pcc! 20:05:36 I should submit the patch sometime. 20:05:46 I think some C compilers (maybe GNU C? I am not sure) can turn off // comments if needed?? 20:05:49 zzo38: //**/ is indeed not particularly useful, that's why the C standard people decided they didn't care about breaking it 20:06:05 gcc will turn off // comments if you ask for strict C89 mode, e.g. using -ansi or -std=c89 20:06:13 one feature I like, is that data incremented is not commited until it's actually pushed to the stack. 20:06:14 ais523: It's a rather embarrassing mistake, but understandable for a program of 1970 vintage: http://sprunge.us/hhjR (this is a unified diff) 20:06:24 committed* 20:06:30 ais523: This works with glibc but not with alternate libcs (well, you can tell dietlibc and uClibc to allow it, but you shouldn't really) 20:06:54 ais523: I forget what helped exactly, but I definitely got a backtrace when it was free()'d later 20:06:57 it might not have been glibc actually 20:06:59 I forget what 20:07:04 probably wasn't actually since I wasn't linking with glibc 20:07:07 hmm. it is a mystery 20:07:09 free was originally defined not to change the memory it freed, incidentally, so you could use the memory safely until your next malloc or free 20:07:24 but not nowadays, as that screws up many plausible implementations, and fails in multithreaded programs 20:07:43 e.g. DJGPP malloc stores metadata in a block immediately after freeing it 20:07:59 Enhanced CWEB will only put comments in the output program for section numbers (if it does so, the comments are /* */ style and on a line by itself), or if you use @=@> or @{send()@} while WEB will put comments in output program for section numbers and for @{@} (the @{@} in WEB is often used like #ifdef in C) 20:08:26 elliott: incidentally, malloc(0) is allowed to return a pointer 20:08:32 ais523: I know 20:08:41 some libcs interpret it as malloc(8) 20:08:41 Ah yeah, investigating DJGPP allocator with purpose of seeing if one game is exploitable... :-) 20:08:43 ais523: glibc does, but dietlibc and uClibc don't by default 20:08:47 (The other purpose of @{@} in WEB is for compiler directives; ordinary Pascal comments with {} are not copied to the output) 20:08:49 Hn 20:08:49 ais523: see http://sprunge.us/hhjR for the fix to the bug this caused in pcc 20:08:50 I think I saw somewhere code that did "p = malloc(N); free(p); [messy code using p]" because "that makes it so much easier to avoid memory leaks". 20:08:56 this is the hello world program I came up with 20:08:58 '!'\'d'\'l'\'r'\'o'\'W'\' '\'o'\'l'\'l\'e'\'H'\ [./] 20:09:04 fizzie: that's beautiful 20:09:21 letters can be created through regular incrementing though 20:09:30 fizzie: But that is a improper code! 20:09:55 Post any improper codes like this into The Daily WTF if you think they are of the kind of things can be posted there in the red category. 20:09:56 zzo38: how do you pronounce improper? 20:10:01 surely that should be "an improper" 20:10:09 in fact, is improper even the right word there? 20:10:21 hmm, now I'm trying to figure out if malloc(0) returning NULL should simultaneously set errno to ENOMEM or not 20:10:33 fizzie: Makes it so much easier to launch the missiles. 20:10:34 EINVAL would make more sense, but is against the literal wording of the man page 20:10:50 it's the sort of success that's worse than failure 20:10:59 ais523: *that's what the fuck 20:11:01 wait no. 20:11:14 ais523: And that is The Daily WTF, the Worse Than Failure. 20:11:16 the sentence doesn't make any sense if you say "what the fuck" there 20:11:19 ais523: (see wut i did thar see wut i did thar) 20:11:45 also, I preferred the name worsethanfailure, if the program just /doesn't work/ it's no fun, it's when it does work and makes no sense that it's fun 20:12:15 ais523: it's more the fact that it was an admitted deliberate bowlderisation, not an "honest" name change 20:12:21 oh, right 20:12:28 "wtf" is quite a bowlderisation in itself 20:12:35 anyway the daily WTF is just terrible, putting it in the hands of a .NET Windows developer who runs ASP.NET software is ... yeah 20:12:43 (I know he founded it) 20:12:44 also, thedailywtf is really hard to mentally pronounce, worsethanfailure is much easier 20:13:06 also all the submissions are the same boring stuff these days 20:13:30 and Windows is a better place to find those things anyway, not because Windows is inherently prone to WTFs (it might be, but that isn't the real reason here), but because the sort of programmers who make them are more likely to be working on a Windows stack, or maybe typical mysql/PHP hosting 20:13:41 Are we still discussing how 99% of people are incorrigible morons? 20:13:56 no 20:14:01 apparently, the submissions are always edited into unrecognisability anyway nowadays; someone said they submitted something and didn't recognise the resulting story 20:14:11 Phantom_Hoover: I think we came back to that topic via a different route 20:15:32 There is still comments and sidebar, though. And also old articles. But you can still read the new articles, too. 20:16:08 sidebar is great 20:16:16 My complaint is that the sponsor appreciation are blue category, I think they should belong in a gray category since the articles work like those in the gray category in generally. 20:16:26 zzo38: I loved your WebFlogScript example in the coding help subforum, btw 20:16:28 the categories have names, you know 20:16:36 ais523: ooh link? 20:16:40 I have to find it again, now 20:17:28 [[ "Print or Fish" was originally published on 2005-11-22, and never seems to grow old... ]] 20:17:31 it's five goddamn years old! 20:17:37 http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/p/8373/162327.aspx#162327 20:17:37 slightly over that in fact 20:17:39 elliott: It doesn't matter what they call it, they can call it "Sponsor Appreciation" category if they want to, but its color should be gray. (There are some categories that do share colors with other categories) 20:18:07 ais523: oh, so it's not actually a flogscript program that outputs html 20:18:10 i'm disappointed! 20:18:17 (The other gray category is the "Error'd" category) 20:18:22 oh, it is 20:18:52 ais523: http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/p/8373/165183.aspx#165183 20:19:02 ais523: why use two appropriate languages when you can use only one inappropriate language? 20:19:14 somehow, I don't quite think that thread expected that answer 20:19:35 IIRC, on Linux, one can't map 0 pages... :-) 20:19:48 ais523: ok, now i just want to know if you can do a full web app in SQL, assuming you have a table called, say, context containing query string, post data, etc. 20:19:56 ais523: CRUD has never been so cruddy! 20:20:17 SET MARKUP HTML ON SPOOL OFF; 20:20:17 SELECT * FROM USERS; 20:20:19 now that's just cheating 20:21:00 Client.c:(.text+0x83): warning: the `gets' function is dangerous and should not be used. 20:21:09 question: is it fair to deduct someone 2 and a half grade boundaries for that? 20:21:18 "Maybe not the most elegant, but I thought it's worth sharing. C# .Net & SQL2005. Grabs raw XML from SQL output and loads it to an XSLT file for output." 20:21:26 ais523: depends 20:21:34 this mark scheme is draconian 20:21:36 ais523: what's the context? 20:21:44 Even some of the programs I wrote in GWBASIC did not use line numbers (and GWBASIC requires line numbers). 20:21:51 ais523: as in, is there an easy situation to imagine where you can easily overflow that? 20:21:56 ais523: almost certainly, I would guess 20:22:12 ais523: in which case, yes. I suppose there *might* be ... some ... context in which gets is abominable but not TOTALLY abominable. 20:22:18 ais523: No, fuck it, it's unacceptable. Deduct the marks. 20:22:37 For fun, try to get there and then crash the app... :-) 20:22:50 interpreting it literally, it would be a deduction of 4 grade boundaries, which would be even more ridiculous 20:22:56 ais523: I approve 20:22:57 that's from a first to a fail 20:23:08 ais523: come on, he used gets() 20:23:15 ais523: well... how big is the buffer? 20:23:26 1024 and it's a human typed message or whatever? ok, deduct 2.5 20:23:31 80 or something and it's the same? fail! 20:23:54 elliott: wow, you dumped a lot of info at once, from my point of view 20:23:59 I wonder if I had a connection hiccup? 20:24:04 ais523: you probably did 20:24:05 i didn't 20:24:13 clog backs me up 20:24:15 it's your problem 20:24:22 ais523: but i still saw what you wrote 20:24:24 interesting! 20:24:27 can you see this? respond ASAP 20:24:31 4096 bytes, it seems 20:24:41 can you see this? say "yes2" ASAP 20:24:44 yes2 20:24:50 ok, your connection is fine now 20:24:54 have fun reading my messages :P 20:25:23 they also used scanf("%[^\n]") into a 100-byte buffer 20:25:35 user input in both cases, what else would you use gets() for? 20:25:42 ais523: yes, but it could be like 20:25:44 and intended to be human-typed 20:25:44 a 4-byte serial code 20:25:49 or it could be an IRC-style message 20:25:51 In memfuck(current name) Cat is produced like so: +\[>,\[./]<] 20:25:52 or it could be an email 20:25:56 elliott: it was, literally, an IRC-style message 20:26:06 the question could be best described as "like IRC, except using UDP" 20:26:24 ais523: well, 4096 bytes with gets() is only worth a 1 to 2 grade deduction i think, since that's far more than irc allows 20:26:31 ais523: but scanf on a 100-byte buffer? 20:26:37 ais523: deduct as many marks as you possibly can 20:26:44 that was for a username 20:26:47 ais523: although... if his program compiles and runs and works, then don't 20:26:53 ais523: because i bet a lot of the others don't :) 20:26:55 oh, the program doesn't work 20:26:59 oh 20:27:02 ais523: fail it then 20:27:11 fail it with FIRE 20:27:16 yep, I'm just trying to interpret a markscheme that deducts 2.5 grade boundaries for any warning 20:27:31 that's caught at the warning level of -Wall without -Wextra and without optimisation, which is a really screwed up warning level 20:27:47 ais523: eh? -Wextra isn't all that popular 20:27:54 and optimisation doesn't add warnings does it? 20:27:58 yes, it does 20:28:02 most of them can't be caught without optimisation 20:28:10 because there isn't enough information 20:28:16 ais523: ...wow just wow @ gcc. 20:28:19 Heh... When I did programming course, assignments were failed for any warning... 20:28:27 Ilari: now *that's* just stupid 20:28:34 e.g. at -O2 you get nice warnings like "warning: this buffer will always overflow" 20:28:43 ais523: I say: deduct as much as you can, *unless* all the other programs are *even more terrible*. 20:28:43 Ilari: I'm marking to a similar markscheme right now, and it seems unfair 20:28:50 elliott: no, that was one of the worse ones 20:28:59 ais523: ok, I see no reason not to kick it to death then 20:29:08 fair enough 20:29:08 Well, in context of that course, it wasn't very unfair. 20:29:21 now, I have a different student's work, which is mostly very good except they forgot to include string.h 20:29:24 (multiple returns with feedback). 20:29:27 and their makefile uses -Werror, so it doesn't compile 20:29:43 WTF... 20:29:45 ais523: wait, i was thinking of them as a clueless 18 year old 20:29:52 ais523: yeah fail it :P 20:29:54 Is it possible to configure which warnings are considered errors and which are warnings? 20:30:07 Ilari: they were told to use -Werror, as a method to make them take warnings seriously 20:30:21 zzo38: there's -pedantic-errors, but nothing finer-grained than that IIRC 20:30:34 ais523: -pedantic is nice 20:30:39 I usually go for -Wall -pedantic 20:30:44 agreed; -pedantic-errors is over the top, though 20:30:53 especially as the standard itself only insists on warnings 20:31:11 yeah 20:31:16 (to be precise, diagonstics of any type, the compiler defines what a diagnostic is, but everyone interprets it as "warnings or above") 20:31:19 ais523: oh, that -pedantic is with -std=c89 20:31:28 elliott: they've been told to use -std=gnu99 20:31:32 in fact, the examples won't compile without it 20:31:33 Some I think ought to be errors, some I think ought to be warnings, and some I think ought to be considered correct and have no warning and no error. 20:31:38 ais523: i have little faith in this course 20:31:43 I would have complained, except the course is focusing on C as a method of teaching hacking Linux 20:31:55 zzo38: if you consider it correct, you can use -Wno- 20:31:56 ais523: please god keep these people away from my kernel 20:32:08 ais523: at least it's motivation for me to work on @ :) 20:32:10 e.g. -Wno-format-security to turn off warnings about printf(variable); 20:32:16 (@ = ElliottOS) 20:32:23 ais523: hmm, is there a -Wno-if(x=y)-warnings? 20:32:24 elliott: I guessed from context 20:32:25 Heh... Reminds me of one of my programs... It has some code accepted from somebody else... Guess which modules have -Werror and which don't? :-) 20:32:26 because those piss me off 20:32:40 elliott: I believe so; clang even tells you what the option is, unlike gcc 20:32:53 ais523: good 20:34:06 IIRC, extra pair of () should silence that warning... 20:34:12 elliott: -Wno-parentheses 20:34:19 elliott: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Memfuck 20:34:20 and as Ilari says, you can suppress it by doubling the parens of the if 20:34:21 How's that? 20:34:24 as in, if((x=y)) 20:34:38 ais523: I know that 20:34:39 in fact, I've taken to using double parens around any assignment in an expression that isn't just x=y=z 20:34:39 ais523: it's irritating 20:34:41 and ugly 20:34:44 to say "yes I really mean this" 20:34:46 I'll write more, but that's all I got without an interpreter or compiler to base what it's capabilities are 20:35:04 Goosey: is User:Goosey actually registered? 20:35:08 you created that page as an IP 20:35:08 Yeah 20:35:12 Whaa? 20:35:24 For example, in Enhanced CWEB the assignment operator is printed by left arrow to easily tell the difference of a equal operator, so, we do not need that warning. But using numbers as pointers and pointers as numbers (except zero) without cast should be error, instead of a warning. 20:35:26 Goosey: btw, suggestion: whenever you add commands to BF, take a BF command away to make it interesting :-) 20:35:40 elliott, okay :D 20:35:59 but do you think the structure right now is solid enough to implement? 20:36:18 Sure. 20:36:26 elliott: hmm, this student would get full marks, apart from the inability of it to compile due to the missing header, and because it reads data after a free() 20:36:33 Goosey: I fixed up your page a bit. 20:36:39 Goosey: formatting and categories 20:36:44 oh, and not checking the return value of fgets, but I bet those marks will be moderated up because the other TAs didn't think to check 20:36:53 ais523: deduct the minimum you can + 1 20:36:53 "Reads data after a free"? 20:36:56 Thanks, wasn't sure how to add categories 20:36:57 ais523: i.e. second-minimum 20:37:02 pikhq: yes, but come on, everyone else is even worse than this. 20:37:07 it's a fixed markscheme, no place for subjectivity in theory 20:37:10 Instant fail in the course, if it were up to me... 20:37:13 because it has to be the same between different markers 20:37:18 pikhq: they're masters' students :) 20:37:19 elliott: Then everyone should fail. 20:37:20 pikhq: it's -3 out of 20, that's quite a lot 20:37:34 and pretty much every student got that -3 for some reason or another, mostly overflowing fixed-size buffers 20:38:03 ais523: That earns them -1 degree. 20:38:33 (mostly only if too much data was given, but several students wrote code that was guaranteed to overflow no matter what; in particular, many students seemed to think strcat had the magical property of working even in contexts where no sensible function would) 20:38:45 I've lost track of how many times I've seen strcat to an uninitialized buffer 20:39:11 one student even tried strcat to a buffer initialized with a constant string with no length specified 20:39:22 and gcc with -O2 gave me a nice little "this function will always overflow its buffer" warning 20:39:33 ais523: -O2, not -Os? 20:39:43 I'm using -O2 just to get the warnings 20:39:51 I run the programs at -O0 to reduce the chance they crash arbitrarily 20:40:27 (also, the second exercise, the example code they've been given to work with malfunctions at -O1 or higher, because it tries to use a loop to busywait without checking timers or even changing a volatile variable) 20:40:43 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:41:04 ais523: awful 20:41:14 These are all mistakes I'd want to hand out a failing grade for. Dear God, I must be absolutely amazing just because I don't completely and utterly suck at this. 20:41:20 ais523: Fail the professor! 20:41:25 pikhq: oh, I would if I coudl 20:41:49 <3 20:41:57 ais523: is there a way back up from the rabbit hole? 20:42:07 in fact, the course has two professors, one who distributes examples which don't compile with their recommended -Werror (mixing up signed and unsigned pointers), and the other who's ridiculously strict about everything and recommended the -Werror in the first place 20:42:38 the first one set the exercise, then unexpectedly had to leave for several weeks, and I've had to do loads of work to try to handle the fallout 20:43:09 ais523: And now I see absolutely nothing wrong with my exploiting the statement of the problems on programming assignments just to amuse myself. 20:43:32 pikhq: you have to be careful, you may lose marks just because the markers don't understand what you did 20:43:33 "Implement foo non-recursively" → "Implement foo with a manual call stack instead of using the C stack" 20:43:59 the best submission I saw clearly did something like that, their server wasn't what the rest of us had expected, but a server in the Apache sense 20:44:06 it had things like thread pools, logging, and daemonization 20:44:11 even though we hadn't asked for them 20:44:25 ais523: haha 20:44:27 ais523: full marks i hope 20:44:36 ais523: unless they're Vorpal; then they might have actually meant it *seriously* 20:44:39 hey, I can't report other student's marks! 20:44:54 and you didn't 20:45:00 ais523: although automatic daemonisation is actually an anti-feature... 20:45:08 I know, it made it a pain to mark 20:45:30 ais523: OTOH, they're clearly way too bored by this and so how good their program is is basically irrelevant because they should pass anyway :) 20:45:37 >v 20:45:40 ^< 20:47:24 the most annoying thing about the course is that many students found an exercise which was meant to test that they understood the basics of C and managed to avoid using either pointers or memory management 20:47:28 and yet the solution was still mostly correct 20:48:13 :D 20:48:28 ais523: to be honest, i tend to avoid using memory management too! although not pointers 20:48:35 i don't think i've called malloc in my last three, four C programs at all 20:48:37 ais523: I'd be tempted to do so as well. 20:48:51 pikhq: surely not pointers, they're the easiest way to iterate... 20:49:02 and the only way to pass around arrays 20:49:08 elliott: Only tempted to subvert the point of the assignment. 20:49:15 *and the only way to pass around statically-allocated storage :P 20:49:22 elliott: Also, not true in C99. 20:49:57 Well, technically it's still a pointer behind the scenes, but you *can* pass around actual C arrays just fine in C99. 20:50:03 pikhq: really? 20:50:11 yep 20:50:14 it looks like this: 20:50:21 int foo(int n, int bar[n]) 20:50:27 void do_something_with_an_int_array(int length, int array[length]) 20:50:39 right 20:50:40 kind of awful 20:50:43 pikhq: hey, no getting there first just because I used meaningful variable names! 20:50:56 ais523: I'm sorry, but I'd rather see pikhq's line in a program than yours. 20:51:06 elliott: indeed, but I'd rather see my line in an example 20:51:10 ais523: Calling a variable "length" is bad enough; call an array "array" and I'll never talk to you again. 20:51:18 (Unless it's a generic array operation.) 20:51:27 well, it's clearly a very generic operation, given its name 20:51:37 heh 20:52:15 ais523: surely it should be "void *do_something_with_an_int_array(void (*function)(void *element), int length, void *array[length])" 20:52:24 ais523: where the return value is a pointer to the newly-constructed array 20:52:26 i.e. that thing is map 20:52:31 or reverse map 20:52:44 or permutation-determined-by-length map 20:52:55 hmm, seems the Tuesday relevance came several days too early, this week 20:53:20 they used pretty much exactly that example, to try to prove that just the type signature said a lot about the function given certain reasonable assumptions 20:53:55 ais523: heh 20:54:02 ais523: now if they were using haskell... 20:54:08 map :: (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b] 20:54:10 not actually all that helpful really 20:54:31 although if you assume it does the *minimum possible orthogonal operation*, then it's easy to deduce 20:54:41 reversing is an "extra step", so it doesn't do that 20:54:42 elliott: their assumptions were orthogonality assumptions 20:54:48 map f (x:_) = [f x] 20:54:50 isn't orthogonal 20:54:55 because it doesn't treat the whole data structure equally 20:54:57 wikipedia is shrinking 20:54:59 they were trying to demonstrate that their assumptions were useful given the situation 20:54:59 so the only thing it can be given those assumptions is 20:54:59 D: 20:55:03 map _ [] = [] 20:55:05 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:55:07 map f (x:xs) = f x : map f xs 20:55:10 (or equivalent) 20:55:11 ais523: right 20:55:12 Goosey: you mean, pages are being deleted faster than they're being created? or something else? 20:55:20 page length 20:55:23 look 20:55:25 -!- oklopol has joined. 20:55:30 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Turing_tarpit&oldid=138230249 20:55:34 That is the OLD revision 20:55:44 I trust you can check the new one :) 20:55:46 fizzie, down? 20:55:52 Goosey: removing pointless fluff is not a bad thing 20:55:57 length(page_text) is not a valid metric 20:55:59 I reject your complaint 20:56:05 I have seen that on MANY pages 20:56:10 the Examples section is worthless, there 20:56:17 and "Use of phrase in computer science" is uncited bullshit 20:56:20 the new page is better 20:56:23 Lol. 20:56:51 lol, the universal rebuttal. 20:57:22 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esoteric_programming_language is a better article than i expected 20:57:27 up again 20:57:28 although lolcode should not be the first entry there :( 20:57:36 LOLCODE sounds fun 20:57:41 but it isn't fun to program in 20:57:42 LOLCODE sucks. 20:57:43 and WHY does http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxi_Programming_Language have an article 20:57:46 it just looks funny 20:57:46 Goosey: lolcode is the worst esolang ever. 20:57:51 Yeah 20:58:31 elliott: LOLCODE is, unfortunately, the most famous esolang 20:58:37 ): 20:58:48 viric: ams was asking about the status of NixOS on MIPS 20:58:48 so i was advertising your hard and fruitful work :-) 20:58:51 no, you where trying to get me to do viric work so he can get all the credit... du'h. 20:58:53 pikhq: does he ever stop? 20:59:08 ais523: hmm, i think it may be tied with brainfuck 20:59:12 ais523: but you're probably right i guess 20:59:14 elliott: No. 20:59:37 elliott: He makes RMS look positively well-behaved and accepting of dissent. 20:59:41 ais523: brainfuck gets a *lot* of publicity in random forums -- think bad design, Invision Power Board, circa 2004-2006 sort of places; it ends up popping up a lot... and I'm not sure how I know this 21:01:11 pikhq: can i hire you to write a super-awesome specialiser 21:02:47 elliott: I accept $50 American Gold Eagles. 21:03:06 For face value. 21:03:29 pikhq: certainly, i'll go kill an american eagle and gold-plate it 21:03:42 No, I mean the legal tender coin. 21:03:46 shut up 21:11:00 This game is bad because Hitler played it. 21:12:05 indeed 21:12:54 pikhq: 21:12:55 make nixos free software, and we can host it on ftp.gnu.org 21:12:55 I agree making it free software 21:12:55 Although doing that only to get hosting... :) 21:12:55 making nix a gnu poroject could be cool 21:12:55 viric: the main reason should be to respect your users 21:12:57 oh oh, I'm shocked, lessons about respect 21:12:59 22:11 /ignore viric 21:13:01 pikhq: you can't make this shit up 21:15:12 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:16:36 I like to write free software so that the software can be used and improved. 21:17:05 I like to write expensive software to teach people how to steal. 21:17:30 Goosey: unless the software is like, Theft: The Interactive Tutorial, then you don't 21:17:33 you teach them how to infringe copyright 21:17:36 :D 21:18:48 You are allowed to charge as much money as you want for free software. But it is still illegal for someone to go to your house and steal the disk. 21:19:18 elliott: Yes, ams really is more of a zealot than rms. 21:19:42 pikhq: now he's chastising them for having Acrobat Reader packages and using kernel.org Linux rather than linux-libre 21:19:50 pikhq: and telling them they need a policy on Freeness 21:20:18 You see? 21:20:27 pikhq: tempted to write vams(1) now 21:20:54 Which shoots you if you have the audacity to use kernel.org Linux. 21:21:16 * elliott runs vrms 21:21:22 woo, I have non-free packages installed! 21:21:28 11 non-free packages, 0.7% of 1678 installed packages. 21:21:29 2 contrib packages, 0.1% of 1678 installed packages. 21:22:00 "The Free Software Foundation lists vrms among packages that don't respect its Free System Distribution Guidelines" 21:22:04 Description: Purports to tell you about nonfree software on your system. 21:22:04 Homepage: 21:22:04 Problem: Incomplete and misleading. 21:22:04 Recommended Fix: Remove it, a free distribution doesn't need it. 21:22:06 what's vrms? 21:22:23 ais523: a debian package that tells you about all the non-DFSG stuff you have on your system 21:22:26 ah 21:22:27 lists every package 21:22:29 ais523: Virtual RMS. It tells you if you've installed any packages from contrib or non-free. 21:22:33 I would just like to list http://libreplanet.org/wiki/List_of_software_that_does_not_respect_the_Free_System_Distribution_Guidelines here 21:22:36 Description: IRC client. 21:22:37 Homepage: http://xchat.org/ 21:22:37 Problem: Refers to a non-free browser in its URL handlers. 21:22:37 Recommended Fix: Remove the URL handler entry. 21:22:41 presumably it means Firefox... 21:23:10 wait, referring to nonfree software violates the FSDG? and that has a confusingly similar acronym to the DFSG? 21:23:23 clearly 21:23:27 *initialism, if there are any pedants watching 21:23:29 ais523: apparently you have to remove Chromium, too! 21:23:52 ais523: Emacs violates the same, then. 21:23:55 who made these guidelines 21:24:00 coppro: rms 21:24:06 (it refers to Win32 and DOS a lot in its manual) 21:24:07 while on crack 21:24:15 pikhq: the author of the emacs tutorial had to avoid mentioning win32/dos 21:24:19 because rms said he couldn't 21:24:22 after he did 21:24:23 elliott: *facepalm* 21:24:27 elliott: um 21:24:38 pikhq: IIRC, he was also told to insert a lot of the language about "you MAY have arrow keys on your TERMINAL!" too 21:24:41 rms does not need crack to write guidelines like this 21:24:51 coppro: no, it's just that he's always on crack 21:24:54 coppro: it was just an extra detail 21:25:10 the debian documentation 21:25:11 lol 21:25:12 Description: Gaming server that emulates Battle.net® 21:25:12 Homepage: 21:25:12 Problem: only useful with proprietary software 21:25:20 you can't make this shit up 21:25:27 elliott: I see absolutely *nothing* wrong with merely mentioning proprietary software. Especially when it's such well-known software that anyone who hasn't heard of it is too in awe at the magic box to bother reading documentation. 21:25:34 pikhq: [[ Description: Gaming server that emulates Battle.net® 21:25:34 Homepage: 21:25:34 Problem: only useful with proprietary software ]] 21:25:54 [[ Description: scripts to talk to the CIA commit service. 21:25:54 Homepage: 21:25:54 Problem: contains a script for bitkeeper, which is only useful with proprietary software 21:25:54 Recommended Fix: remove bitkeeper script ]] 21:26:00 WOW 21:26:01 [[ Description: command-not-found is the program sugesting what package to install if one tries to execute a non-installed application in a shell. 21:26:01 Homepage: 21:26:01 Problem: suggests proprietary software ]] 21:26:03 elliott: that's a wiki, right? 21:26:07 ais523: the FSF consider command-not-found non-Free 21:26:12 coppro: sure; you go audit the revision history 21:26:16 elliott: no 21:26:23 I was thinking I should add one for 21:26:36 "does something RMS already wrote software for" 21:26:40 :D 21:26:44 heh, indeed, the Debian documentation is non-FSF 21:26:53 "is written by someone who works for a software company 21:26:55 or the like 21:27:00 -!- wareya_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:27:02 [[ Description: Web browser 21:27:02 Homepage: 21:27:02 Problem: recommends non-free software ]] 21:27:04 what? 21:27:10 they aren't even complainig about the artwork or tardemark 21:27:17 [[] Firefox 2 in the repos allows you to install flashplayer 10. I have tested this myself, and it downloads, installs and runs.]] 21:27:19 HAHAHAHAAHHAAHAHA 21:27:25 FIREFOX IS NON-FREE BECAUSE IT LETS YOU INSTALL FLASH 21:27:46 also isn't the artistic license FSF-approved? 21:27:57 No mention of branding (which is why Debian has Iceweasel)? 21:27:58 coppro: only version 2 21:28:03 elliott: But the crazy trademark and artwork scheme? A-OK. 21:28:03 Ilari: nope, just recommending flash 21:28:06 -!- wareya has joined. 21:28:08 elliott: oh 21:28:13 [[ iceweasel 21:28:13 Description: firefox based web browser 21:28:14 Homepage: 21:28:14 Problem: same issues as firefox, incl. suggesting proprietary plugins 21:28:14 Recommended Fix: use gnu icecat ]] 21:28:19 i have no words 21:28:33 " linux linux-backports-modules* linux-ubuntu-modules " 21:28:41 look at the thunderbird entry 21:28:47 [[ Description: Allows running MacOS inside a GNU/Linux system. 21:28:47 Homepage: 21:28:47 Problem: Only runs/supports proprietary software. ]] 21:28:49 coppro: do I want to? 21:28:58 Problem: Recommends non-free software (extensions). 21:28:58 Recommended Fix: Change link to point to GNUzilla's list of free addons. 21:29:02 <3 21:29:04 YOU CANNOT MAKE THIS SHIT UP 21:29:06 this is perfect 21:29:34 http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/gnewsense-users/2007-02/msg00027.html in which vrms outputs 7 gnu packages and nothing else 21:30:03 coppro: i even kinda respected the gnewsense people before this 21:30:19 coppro: but they're not dedicated to Free Software -- they're dedicated to pretending non-Free Software doesn't even *exist*! 21:30:26 orwellian 21:31:02 elliott: that is... wow 21:31:11 coppro: what is? 21:31:21 ok 21:31:22 ok this takes the cake 21:31:24 [[ Description: UNetbootin allows for the installation of various Linux/BSD distributions to a partition or USB drive, so it's no different from a standard install, only it doesn't need a CD. It can create a dual-boot install, or replace the existing OS entirely. 21:31:24 Homepage: http://unetbootin.sourceforge.net/ 21:31:24 Problem: It lists many non-fsdg operating systems. ]] 21:31:27 unetbootin 21:31:28 is non-Free 21:31:30 because unetbootin 21:31:32 lets you download 21:31:34 Debian. 21:31:37 which is non-Free. 21:31:50 can we just kill RMS now pls 21:31:51 i'm exploding with happy 21:32:03 they recommend this 21:32:03 FUSBi, the Free USB Installer, downloads free GNU/Linux Distributions for you and creates bootable USB images. 21:32:04 FUSBi supports automated installation of of all the FSF-endorsed Free Software GNU/Linux Distributions, such as gNewSense, UTUTO, Dynebolic, Musix GNU+Linux, BLAG and GNUstep. You can also use it with your local image files. 21:32:05 http://aligunduz.org/FUSBi/ 21:32:13 wow there is a gnustep livecd. 21:32:36 incidentally 21:32:40 "Personas for Firefox Changes the look of the browser easily MPL 1.1/GPL 2.0/LGPL 2.1 Licenses stated on the website." --IceCat addons 21:32:41 HEY 21:32:47 I bet most of the Persona themes 21:32:47 why do dfsg consider make-doc and the like non-free 21:32:47 are non-Free 21:32:47 WHAT NOW 21:32:56 coppro: GFDL with invariant clauses 21:33:01 coppro: for instance, you can't modify the emacs manual to remove the GNU manifesto 21:33:04 ah 21:33:09 coppro: redistributing it like that is disallowed 21:33:17 coppro: (The GFDL is pretty much the worst license... ever.) 21:33:21 it truly is 21:33:35 especially because it makes GCC docs suck 21:33:35 coppro: btw, if I have an urge to make a license that's even more GPL than the AGPL, just for the esoteric of it, is that bad? 21:33:38 ais523: is it? 21:33:38 since they can't include snippets 21:33:41 because that violates GPL 21:33:45 coppro: :D 21:34:03 I was thinking that it'd be like the AGPL, except s/over a network/over any kind of communication -- Unix pipes, IPC, anything/ 21:34:12 elliott: don't forget system calls 21:34:14 that would disallow proprietary frontends to GPL'd programs 21:34:31 coppro: hmm, maybe :D 21:34:53 elliott, what about disallowing any transfer of data whatsoever to anything proprietary? 21:35:02 the ultimate fsf isolationist software 21:35:03 coppro: I was going to add a clause saying that a shell being able to pipe one program to another doesn't make this apply, so that you can distribute non-GPL'd programs with a system 21:35:08 coppro: but what the heck, let's not include that exception 21:35:17 Copying and pasting GCC output into IE: a license violation. 21:35:21 "Anything that makes a sideways glance at this program must be IGPL'd (Insane General Public License)." 21:35:21 Phantom_Hoover: <3 21:35:27 elliott: IGPL? 21:35:29 bad name 21:35:30 Phantom_Hoover: make it *Microsoft's* license violation 21:35:30 FGPL 21:35:35 Free General Public License 21:35:41 God, the GFDL sucks so bad. 21:35:47 coppro: FUGPL Fucked Up General Public License -- or, to every developer ever, the Fuck You General Public License 21:36:13 Installing the software on Debian: A licence violation. 21:36:22 I guess I can't use FUGPL'd software on Windows? 21:36:34 reading about the software on a non-totally-GPL'd operating system: license violation 21:36:37 elliott: Apparently someone once made the mistake of introducing RMS as an author of open source 21:36:46 knowing about the software and using non-FUGPL'd software in any way: license violation 21:36:50 *non-totally-FUGPL'd 21:36:52 (above) 21:36:52 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 21:37:17 coppro: Oh, the ranting that must have brought. 21:37:47 coppro: elliott: so promotion of non-free software (like that gaming server) is counted as not respecting 21:37:48 coppro: elliott: now it's time to consider the "lack of features" a promotion of non-free software 21:37:50 i fully support this motion 21:38:03 +1 21:38:27 elliott, so not having something proprietary software has is a promotion of it? 21:38:39 Phantom_Hoover: yep 21:38:40 Phantom_Hoover: right 21:38:45 because people might use that software because it's more featured 21:38:51 Ah. 21:38:59 in fact, every second spent not replacing all software with GPL'd equivalents is a second spent in sin 21:39:20 and you'll go to a special hell for that 21:39:26 you'll have to spend eternity listening to RMS 21:40:04 * Sgeo wonders if anyone really uses vrms 21:40:14 Sgeo: sure 21:40:34 the DFSG are sane 21:40:52 coppro: Mostly, yeah. 21:41:06 in fact, I'm curious to see what I have that is non-DFSG, so I'm downloading vrms 21:41:21 elliott, having any use whatsoever for proprietary software is a licence violation. 21:41:25 -!- zzo38 has joined. 21:41:25 coppro: "downloading"? surely you just mean installing :P 21:41:39 elliott: have to download first... but yes, through apt 21:41:40 Phantom_Hoover: not licensing your thoughts under the FUGPL is a license violation 21:41:50 Phantom_Hoover: having a dream involving non-FUGPL'd software is a liecnse violation 21:41:53 flash and microsoft fonts 21:41:55 this is acceptable 21:42:01 The GCC can be used to compile non-free software. 21:42:05 also some nvidia drivers apparently 21:42:07 but I just removed them 21:42:11 LICENCE VIOLATION 21:42:13 +1 21:42:26 Why did they send a request like this? "POST http://127.0.0.1:6667/ HTTP/1.0" 21:42:35 Who is they? 21:42:39 zzo38: it's some exploit i think 21:42:42 that hasn't worked in years 21:42:42 I don't know. 21:42:43 or something 21:42:44 Oh 21:42:48 it connected to the irc server, i think 21:42:53 because it proxied to localhost's irc port 21:43:01 so people wrote javascript to do that with an iframe or something 21:43:01 I forget 21:43:12 also some nvidia drivers apparently 21:43:12 but I just removed them 21:43:15 coppro: are you on a nvidia card? 21:43:17 elliott: no 21:43:21 coppro: X-D 21:43:24 I don't even know why they were on my system 21:43:32 If you want to connect to my IRC server you use the proper IRC client please. 21:43:39 so fuck nvidia etc. 21:43:43 coppro: mine are: http://sprunge.us/PYKQ 21:43:54 Not trying things like this that doesn't work the IRC is not even HTTP 21:43:55 elliott: distro? 21:44:08 coppro: Coq documentation, Emacs documentation, gcc documentation, LHA, Sun's Java (for Minecraft), and the non-free TTFs for Luxi Mono which I don't even use because Emacs fails at it so I'll just remove that. 21:44:10 coppro: Debian 21:44:12 testing 21:44:17 Debian testing that is 21:44:23 ah 21:44:52 GFDL violates DFSG, or is the documentation under some other license? 21:44:53 actually, my list might not be 100% accurate, depending on how vrms works 21:45:04 Sgeo: If it has invariant sections, yes 21:45:12 GFDL violates DFSG under certain conditions 21:45:15 GNU likes those conditions a lot. 21:45:29 coppro: it just lists every package from the non-free and contrib repos installed 21:45:35 elliott: 21:45:40 oops, mistype 21:46:06 coppro: iirc the Artistic License v1 won't be included 21:46:12 because debian consider it Free or something 21:46:14 but the FSF don't 21:46:23 yes, dfsg do 21:47:13 elliott: AL 1 isn't DFSG. 21:47:29 Why do they try to access /favicon.ico with every request? Can't the client cache it? Do I need to change the response code to 410 instead of 404 to make it stop doing that? 21:47:40 pikhq: yes it is 21:47:44 zzo38: yes, try 404 21:47:55 elliott, reread what zzo38 said 21:47:59 Sgeo: I did. 21:48:01 oh 21:48:05 zzo38: IIRC some browser buggily requested a 404'd one every request 21:48:07 zzo38: so it might be those. 21:48:11 410 probably won't help 21:48:14 Or should it change 412? 21:48:25 Argh, it is. And Wikipedia lies. 21:48:32 pikhq: un-lie it then 21:49:13 pikhq: I'm now trying to figure out if specialising Y for argument fact gives you the "obvious" way to do a recursive fact in the lambda calculus. 21:49:21 pikhq: And if you can then somehow transform this into a directly recursive function. 21:49:52 [[ 21:49:53 All interesting partial evaluators seem to use “The Trick” (i.e. eta expansion) somewhere to get specialization going. How does that work in your machine?]] 21:49:54 THE TRICK 21:52:28 Oh, look. 21:52:35 There is a Culture Wikia after all. 21:52:41 haha 21:52:43 must see 21:52:55 oh, boring 21:52:57 Phantom_Hoover: enjoy your eye pain 21:52:59 :P 21:53:19 I'm assuming the eye pain comes from whatever is normally in the borders. 21:53:55 [[Edinburgh author Iain M. Banks,]] — Somewhere on the webosphere 21:54:29 Honestly, North Queensferry is hardly indistinguishable from Edinburgh. 21:58:54 What more channels do I need? 22:00:24 I can add in any channels you requested *now*, before it is too late! 22:00:49 So, I'm assuming "200-metre long cigar with globes full of shooty things" is a good starting point. 22:02:20 " Visit Embassy Tel Aviv's Classified Website:" 22:05:41 ineiros_, what's sea level on the topo map? 22:05:57 Light yellow? 22:07:14 Also: holy crap 200 blocks is long. 22:07:17 Phantom_Hoover: That irregularly shaped thing immediately below the staircase pair is one below sea level. 22:07:29 (Because it's that pool.) 22:07:38 Now I added one channel 22:08:17 Speaking of the stairs, heh, it seems that the torches along the edge of the stairs make it look like the stairs are three wide in the topo-map. 22:12:18 -!- Sasha2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:12:36 -!- Sasha2 has joined. 22:13:33 Yes. 22:13:44 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:13:56 Minecraft? 22:13:59 Yep. 22:14:05 I'm building an ROU. 22:14:11 Well, planning to do so. 22:14:30 elliott, why am I a pope? 22:14:57 fizzie, Vorpal, elliott, vote for where I have planning permission. Over the causeway is my current location. 22:16:30 Is "planning permission" a formal thing or just a rule of the server? 22:16:45 -!- Sasha2_ has joined. 22:17:06 Phantom_Hoover, ? 22:17:25 I am running Biome Terrain Mod 22:17:30 Phantom_Hoover, what do you mean? 22:17:33 ineiros_, lag 22:17:48 Vorpal, "can I build a huge and very visible structure in the air over the causeway?" 22:17:57 Phantom_Hoover, "causeway"? 22:18:06 Phantom_Hoover, do you mean the skyway? 22:18:07 From the spawn to the mainland. 22:18:09 How portable is C++? 22:18:16 -!- Sasha2 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 22:18:23 Goosey, as portable as DON'T USE IT EVER. 22:18:24 Phantom_Hoover, do you mean the bridge? 22:18:32 Vorpal, yes. 22:18:43 Phantom_Hoover, if you mean over the bridge: no. Also it would mess up the max alt reeds 22:18:44 I prefer C instead of C++. 22:18:58 I like C more 22:19:02 I was just wondering though 22:19:06 I dont know C well 22:19:12 I started out with functional languages 22:19:18 Prolog was my first 22:19:21 ;) 22:19:22 Then use C. Learn C. I like to use Enhanced CWEB. 22:19:41 Goosey, Prolog isn't functional, although it's very closely related to functional language. 22:19:56 And an introduction to programming that most of us can only dream of. 22:20:02 Ahhh, splitting hairs main. 22:20:06 man* 22:20:16 I didn't learn C until like my 3rd language 22:20:24 and I wasn't interested in it for a while 22:20:42 C is a very good program language to learn. Forth is also a good program language to learn. 22:21:30 -!- augur has joined. 22:22:28 C++ sucks dicks 22:22:50 +1 22:23:55 At least C++ has more of a reason to exist than C++/CLI 22:23:57 I think 22:24:31 yes 22:24:38 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:24:44 the only useful thing about C++ is that it's like C but you can put functions in objects and that there's inheritance 22:24:51 You can have opinion, if you want to. But I prefer Enhanced CWEB (in C mode). 22:24:55 inheritance is evil 22:24:56 things are* 22:25:09 elliott, you hate Smalltalk now? 22:25:14 I started out with functional languages 22:25:14 Prolog was my first 22:25:18 you are insanely lucky. 22:25:23 Really? 22:25:26 yes. 22:25:35 elliott: not if you're making something like a video game 22:25:37 functional first language is incredibly rare in programming 22:25:40 wareya: yes, even then. 22:25:47 I don't care for video games though 22:25:50 Sgeo: inheritance is one of smalltalk's mistakes :) newspeak corrects this 22:25:54 If you think that inheritance is bad for video games that I don't know what to tell you. 22:25:59 I think in C, it is not even useful for function in object and inheritance, because C has pointers and structures and unions and preprocessor, and you can make similar stuff like what you need, with it. And even Enhanced CWEB, to add interpreted codes at compile-time. 22:26:08 wareya: hell, I don't think objects are suitable for video games. 22:26:14 but objects with inheritance are the worst. 22:26:19 Okay 22:26:30 have fun in a world where video games don't ever use objects 22:26:36 * Sgeo is excited for Newspeak... but when will it settle down? 22:26:46 wareya: FRP, bitch. 22:26:49 Sgeo: never. 22:27:01 I do think prototype inheritance is useful for text-adventure games, though. 22:27:22 elliott: Hell for video game designers 22:27:36 wareya: um, video game *designers* don't code. 22:27:42 The good ones do. 22:27:48 * Sgeo googles 22:27:51 anyway you have no idea what hell is, you were just brought up on imperative programming and now you have a stupid, warped view of everything 22:28:11 I was brought up on shoving as much logic into one line as possible. 22:28:33 I design a game, I will generally, also program it into the computer. I make a game differently than other one, but that is because I have different opinion than other one, is OK!? 22:28:34 elliott: Are there any mature-ish FRP libraries yet? 22:28:37 wareya: yes. you're hardcore. don't ever forget that. 22:28:43 No, I'm not hardcore. 22:28:51 Trying to be hardcore is the mark of a bad programmer, which I am. 22:28:59 Deewiant: Yes and no. It's easy to do FRP if you know what application you're using it in.d 22:29:04 Deewiant: General FRP is... heh. 22:29:17 elliott: So just for some domains, or what? 22:29:19 Deewiant: The current best solution for general FRP is to use a lazy specialiser implementaiton of a language. 22:29:28 But it's not because I try to be hardcore, it's because I can't think outside the box of having a main loop with an object instance manager. 22:29:34 Deewiant: I'm pretty sure that at least with games, there are robust FRP libraries. But I don't do that, so I don't know. 22:29:59 Deewiant: There are simple, general FRP implementations, but they leak space. Lazy specialisers fix this problem, but of course are far from mainstream language implementation and need runtime code generation. 22:30:10 Deewiant: Thankfully as an idealist OS developer, I can bundle as many runtime code generators as I like :) 22:31:14 elliott: /lastlog lukepalmer... ah, I see. ;-P 22:31:18 Why do a lot of people seem to suggest that Scala's only good part is the JVM thing? 22:31:32 Am I the only one who wants to see languages in terms of the language itself? 22:31:39 I submit that that's its only bad part 22:31:50 Without knowing most of the language 22:32:04 People love justifying themselves in the simplest way possible. 22:32:06 Deewiant: Shut up shut up I'm not identical to Luke Palmer SHUT UP 22:32:09 -!- elliott has changed nick to Iukepalmer. 22:32:13 well, their things, not themselves. 22:32:14 nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 22:32:18 -!- Iukepalmer has changed nick to elliott. 22:32:41 * Sgeo chops off three serifs 22:32:43 Scala is stupid. 22:32:58 elliott: I'm just wondering what you would've answered if I'd've asked, say, 24 hours ago 22:33:10 Deewiant: the same actually 22:33:16 elliott, howso? 22:33:18 Deewiant: I just wasn't planning to use FRP in my OS until today :P 22:33:21 Deewiant: I'd already read all the materials. 22:33:41 Sgeo: "Hooray! Functional power with Java flexibility! What's that? Our free mixing of effectful and stateless code has meant we can't do obvious program transformations? Our programs aren't composable? All of functional programming's benefits gone? ...Well, at least it runs on Java!" 22:33:57 Deewiant: But no, general FRP doesn't really exist right now. Ho hum. 22:35:33 Deewiant: Or should I say "we know exactly how to do it, and it's really hard" :P 22:35:56 elliott: "All benefits" is a bit of a stretch, sounds like Haskell loses all the benefits because it has an IO monad :-P 22:36:03 elliott: But yeah, alright. 22:36:15 elliott: "All benefits" is a bit of a stretch, sounds like Haskell loses all the benefits because it has an IO monad :-P 22:36:30 Deewiant: it would if everyone made all their functions result in IO and just made pure functions be "return whatever". 22:36:55 Oh, they don't segregate purity statically at all? 22:37:08 That's a bit of a shame 22:37:13 Deewiant: I don't think so. 22:37:22 Deewiant: Or if they do it's clearly not very effective, as you can e.g. call java methods for math or whatever. 22:37:23 (Disclaimer: I know hardly any Scala) 22:37:36 Deewiant: And presumably they haven't segregated "pure Java API functions" from impure ones because that'd be a *gigantic bitch* to do. 22:37:43 Deewiant: Plus they'd have to do it for every Java library ever. 22:37:56 elliott: They can have done it for just java.lang.Math, of course. :-P 22:38:01 Or was it util.Math. 22:38:03 Whatever. 22:38:10 lang. I think. 22:38:20 Deewiant: Considering that everyone goes OMG SCALA YOU CAN CALL INTO JAVA CODE ITS WONDERFUL, I doubt that. 22:38:45 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:38:46 And if it's user-specifiable, they can just do it a bit at a time. 22:38:53 And let the users worry about what's not done. 22:38:54 But I doubt that. 22:39:03 Deewiant: I have read little bits of Scala and written my own simple programs. 22:39:13 Also I keep track on the general functional programming whateverosphere. 22:39:16 Deewiant: I have never heard of that once. 22:39:18 So yeah, I doubt it. 22:39:34 * Sgeo wants to hotswap Haskell 22:39:45 elliott: That "everyone" that goes like that presumably is not the crowd that would write pure functions anyway. ;-P 22:39:58 Deewiant: One wonders what they see in Scala. 22:40:08 Beats me. 22:40:08 Deewiant: (Perhaps it's the shorter anonymous function syntax.) 22:40:25 The syntax has a weird flexibilit 22:40:28 flexibility 22:40:34 Have you seen specs? 22:40:51 Not necessarily saying it's "good", just perhaps a reason some people like Scala 22:41:48 How many surrealists does it take to change a light bulb? Two. One to hold the giraffe and three to fill the bathtub with brightly colored machine tools. 22:46:37 23:37:30 augur: What with mud being /just/ a complex assortment of organic and inorganic molecules some of which are dissolved into and others of which are suspended in water. 22:46:38 i concur 22:47:10 oh god 22:47:16 elliott is agreeing with me on something 22:47:17 fuck 22:47:20 what 22:47:23 i agreed with Gregor there 22:47:36 23:41:18 Y'know what people? Curry chicken is JUST chicken and curry powder. SUCK IT. 22:47:38 i totally agree 22:47:40 let's do that 22:47:48 23:42:18 Gregor: no, it doesnt. curry chicken needs at least some sort of liquid. 22:47:49 commie 22:47:51 oh right 22:47:51 good 22:48:11 i didnt really read what you wrote 22:48:40 augur: shut up commie 22:48:45 23:43:21 i know because im a linguist! 22:48:47 don't you mean linguistician 22:48:51 no. 22:48:53 23:43:57 Linguistics has little to do with cuisine. 22:48:55 it's food linguistics 22:49:04 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 22:49:44 23:49:14 non-compositionality, bitches 22:49:44 23:49:17 get used to it 22:49:50 augur: sounds like something an imperative programmer would say 22:50:00 not really 22:50:07 23:51:05 Gregor: Which are clearly not curry made with potato chips. 22:50:08 i approve of this 22:50:11 idea 22:50:20 I've had curry potato chips. 22:50:22 They ... aren't that good. 22:50:23 noncompositionality is just the fact that some phrases have meanings that dont derive from the meanings of their parts 22:50:32 Gregor: 23:50:51 * Gregor continues to read but not participate in this conversation while munching on curry potato chips. 22:50:38 Gregor: Yes you have, that's what inspired pikhq to say that :P 22:50:47 Gregor: But I approve of the idea of curry made with crisps. 22:50:49 im going to order pizza :T 22:51:01 noncompositionality is just the fact that some phrases have meanings that dont derive from the meanings of their parts 22:51:02 precisely! 22:51:06 s/meanings/results/ 22:51:07 s/meanings/results/g 22:51:08 rather 22:51:09 elliott: Oh ... OK, that'd also be bad, but curry PO-TA-TO-CHIPS also aren't good. 22:51:19 what 22:51:26 Gregor: s/bad/BRILLIANT/; s/PO[^ ]+/CRISPS/ 22:51:51 23:51:21 ask them if curry chicken can be just chicken coated with curry then fried 22:51:51 23:51:27 bet you the answer will be no. 22:51:53 WHY IS NOBODY DOING THIS 22:51:55 Do you know how to play double-loaded dice chess? 22:52:11 elliott: Presumably removing the word "potato" isn't a British-vs-American thing, just a "I choose to be ambiguous" thing? :P 22:52:26 elliott: Or do you call tortilla and corn chips something other than crisps? 22:52:31 Gregor: Yes, because "potato chips" minus "potato" is "crisps". 22:52:36 Gregor: Because chips = crisps. 22:52:41 Gregor: You fail at sentences :P 22:52:45 ... 22:52:53 Gregor: Doritos are crisps, yes. 22:52:55 elliott: I was pointing out that in addition to making the change, you're ALSO removing the word potato. 22:53:06 Right. "potato crisps" is valid but just sounds weird. 22:53:08 We call them crisps. 22:53:24 Gregor: In fact all of those are crisps. Chips are big chunky pieces of potato that you deep-fat fry, or French fries. 22:53:35 I KNOW THAT >_< 22:53:37 Never do you say "potato chips"... well, I guess you could make chips out of like... turnips or something. 22:53:43 And then you'd have cause to disambiguate to "potato chips". 22:53:46 But then you're CRAZY. 22:53:49 I'm talking about CRISPS X_X 22:53:50 Gregor: NO YOU DON'T 22:53:53 YOU'RE A FILTHY AMERICAN BASTARD 22:54:14 elliott: To us, "chips" are only big chunky pieces of potato that you deep-fat fry in the context of fish & chips. 22:54:22 elliott: SAY IT! SAY "POTATO CRISPS"! SAY IT FOR DISAMBIGUATION YOU TOOTHLESS BRITISH PUNK 22:54:26 pikhq: that's just because you're stupid 22:54:38 Gregor: Is that your impression of all Brits? :P 22:55:16 23:59:01 I'm part-Ashkenazi, and nobody cares whether you're religiously Jewish for you to be a Jewish comedian anyway :P 22:55:17 23:59:25 i thought jews are like the OPPOSITE of nazis 22:55:22 why did oklopol not get showers of praise for this 22:55:25 elliott: From my one visit to Britain, I think I can say with fair certainty that Brits have less of a penchant for tooth maintenance than Americans, which is not to say that their teeth are naturally worse, just that they don't give a shit, so the lower-bound is lower. 22:56:06 Gregor: It also may be that you think teeth being slightly yellow is a sign of not enough maintenance, rather than being a sign of not drinking bleach :P 22:56:19 Gregor: Americans are a bit fanatic about the aesthetic appearance of teeth. 22:56:29 elliott, pikhq: Yes, exactly :P 22:56:33 fizzie, "X"? 22:56:49 Gregor: However, Britain has healthier teeth on average. 22:56:51 fizzie, up again 22:56:53 Vorpal: Did that have... any context at all? 22:57:06 Vorpal: "X" was my "t". Anyway, elsewhere a moment. 22:57:24 They're just yellow and crooked, rather than bleached white and mangled into straightness. 22:57:39 I had orthodontia 8-D 22:58:05 Do you know how to play: double-loaded dice chess? monstery poker? monstery Landlord game? any kind of charades game where all motions must be equivalent? 22:58:29 Yes, just like many Americans. 22:58:30 pikhq: they're not that crooked :P 22:58:52 elliott: Yes they are :P 22:58:59 elliott: Is orthodontia very commonly practiced there? 22:59:22 I have a PERMANENT piece of metal in my teeth. It is glued into my teeth and there for my entire life. Keep that in mind when answering :P 22:59:33 pikhq: they exist, yes. i went to see one because i have a tooth that, instead of going down like it should, decided it didn't have enough space and took two years to jut out slightly above the other two teeth 22:59:40 Did you know that the only telephone in all of hell, allows local calls only, please? 22:59:45 elliott: Braces are *very* common in the US. 22:59:50 pikhq: there was an appointment made for the next day to take it out. 22:59:52 well 22:59:56 to take one next to it out so it could descend 22:59:58 pikhq: I wimped out : 22:59:59 :P 23:00:03 I still have that tooth jutting out. 23:00:05 It causes me no real problems. 23:00:11 I just don't use it :P 23:01:04 i'll probably get it taken out at some point 23:01:08 it's useless 23:01:20 elliott: I think you just proved our point :P 23:01:23 although it does hide the slight gap 23:01:33 Gregor: I'm a /rare/ case, there is absolutely no reason that tooth didn't come out :P 23:01:49 elliott: You're talking about the removal of one tooth, not years of braces. 23:01:57 Gregor: I would have gone along with it except I'm a fucking wimp and a dentist injecting my gums and then ripping out a tooth sounded like the worst day ever. 23:02:42 elliott: I had all four of my wisdom teeth taken out in one sitting. PUSSY. 23:02:55 Gregor: I think one of my teeth at the back is a wisdom tooth... maybe. 23:03:12 Also I had an Herbst Appliance ... worst thing ever. 23:04:11 Gregor: Does it look like this? http://personal5.iddeo.es/mmoreira/images/braces/lisa_simpsons.jpg 23:04:21 * elliott googles 23:04:23 ...yes, yes it does/ 23:04:24 *does. 23:04:27 Dear god 23:05:22 elliott: No, that's headgear. 23:05:34 Headgear would have been a welcome relief from the fucking Herbst appliance. 23:05:57 I broke that Herbst appliance hundreds of times. I SHEARED THE FUCKING METAL NAILS RIGHT IN HALF. 23:06:02 * elliott googles headgear 23:06:03 what the fuck. 23:06:19 Gregor: i think that your idea of dentistry is... um... excessive 23:06:29 That's not dentistry, it's orthodontia :P 23:06:33 Gregor: you do realise slightly yellow teeth are natural right? and that slightly crooked teeth don't feel problematic at all? :D 23:06:41 y'all crazy bastards, i'm proud of our british teeth 23:06:44 But they're not pretty! 23:06:51 neither is headgear :P 23:06:57 And I have a proud, jutting American chin thanks to my Herbst appliance! 23:07:04 elliott: You don't wear headgear in public, only while sleeping :P 23:07:04 X-D 23:07:10 Gregor: I like to think that you do. 23:07:14 Didn't Lisa? 23:07:19 I swear she did in that episode. 23:07:21 America is so fucked up. :P 23:07:27 elliott: We're fucking crazy. 23:07:32 you really are. 23:07:41 elliott: If it makes you feel better, I haven't had braces. 23:07:47 Or tooth whitening. 23:07:53 good. don't. 23:07:56 see here, our whitening system is 23:07:57 toothpaste 23:08:04 every single fucking toothpaste is sold because it's WHITENING 23:08:15 probably has bleach in it :P 23:08:22 You can purchase tooth bleaching kits over the counter here. 23:08:58 The toothpaste is of course all whitening toothpaste here. 23:09:01 But then, so is the water. 23:09:47 i think celebrities get like tooth whitening but they're practically americans as far as i'm concerned 23:10:11 http://ryani.freeshell.org/nat_0.txt A proof that 0 is a natural number! 23:10:28 Common procedure! 23:10:51 Wow, freeshell.org still exists. 23:11:20 Gregor: lawl SDF 23:11:30 Gregor: All I remember about SDF is that the administrator is a huge asshole :P 23:11:51 elliott: Not enough of an asshole to not offer free shells in two-thousand-and-fucking-ten. 23:11:59 Don't ever think for one moment that you have won. 23:12:55 Gregor: IIRC someone said something about not buying a premium account because of the cost as an aside in some random thing that was related (although I forget how), and he spent a whole post saying that they probably scavenged out the back of a McDonald's for food because they're so poor and worthless :P 23:13:43 Sounds about right *shrugs* 23:13:57 I should offer free plash-based shells :P 23:14:30 Gregor: Y'know, standard Unix is meant to be secure in a multi-user environment :P 23:14:38 NOT - SECURE - ENOUGH 23:14:42 It's only when multiple people get one user that it's an issue. 23:14:55 You might want to disable world reading access to home directories though :P 23:14:58 Gregor: Offer plash-based shells with home directories that are accessible by Hackiki if you have set the permissions. 23:15:16 zzo38: what XD 23:15:20 zzo38: There ya go! Now it's all coming together X-D 23:15:24 ~/public_hackiki/ 23:15:36 Gregor: omg and let people query egobot with commands here 23:15:37 *there 23:15:40 elliott: Yes. That can work, too, I think. 23:15:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:15:44 $ egobot bf ',[.,]!hello' 23:16:06 Gregor: WAIT, run the system on ... whatever the fuck your POSIX-on-other-OSes thing was called. 23:16:23 Gregor: Give shell access exclusively by DirectNet! 23:16:25 Microcosm; and it's not mine, I just started it because other people insisted, I want it to be theirs :P 23:16:31 Gregor: Write the server in Plof! 23:16:40 At some point I really need to combine EgoBot with HackBot to make a meta-egotistical thing. 23:16:40 Gregor: Match the colours for the DirectNet messages with your neural net! 23:16:49 Gregor: Make people compete in an FYB tournament to keep their accounts! 23:16:53 Um... 23:16:55 elliott: Thank you for listing my astounding accomplishments :P 23:16:58 Gregor: Run the system on JSMIPS! 23:17:02 elliott: Haven't even mention--there ya go. 23:17:08 Gregor: PUT THE BABY IN IT 23:17:21 Gregor: And power it with # Diet Cherry Vanilla Orange Grape Lemon Lime Mint Roast Chicken Mayonnaise and Cola Dr. Pepper. 23:17:25 s/# // 23:17:31 Nice copy-paste there :P 23:17:33 Gregor: Also store configuration files in RXML. Somehow. 23:17:38 Gregor: And kill yourself. 23:17:49 Also put the computer inside a PVC instrument-computer-case hyrbid. 23:17:51 *hybrid. 23:17:55 And thus ends my enumeration of codu.org's contents. 23:18:08 What does RXML means? 23:18:15 zzo38: you don't want to know :P 23:18:20 * Sgeo wants to kno 23:18:23 know 23:18:24 no, you don't 23:18:25 zzo38: http://codu.org/rxml.php 23:18:26 Sgeo: http://codu.org/rxml.php 23:18:53 Gregor: http://codu.org/rxml.php 23:19:34 elliott: http://codu.org/porno/ 23:19:41 404 :( 23:19:49 Gregor: At least make it 403 :P 23:19:49 I don't get the x=1 y=1 in the layer 23:19:49 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:20:00 Sgeo: presumably you can move layers around or something 23:20:06 Make it 907 so that you can confuse you 23:20:21 I confuse me all the time with invalid HTTP response codes. 23:21:06 Config files in RXML: Picture of text in MS Comic Sans 23:21:59 Gregor: for once i support Sgeo's idea, make it do that. 23:22:19 Gregor: did i mention that you should have to play ZEE to find the server address? 23:23:02 Gregor: And, um, I give up :P 23:23:34 Gregor: How did you carbonate your beverages again? I'm just stalking all of codu now/ 23:23:35 *now. 23:24:02 [[# 1 Tbsp "imitation vanilla flavoring" (those using real vanilla extract will naturally need much less)]] 23:24:07 No they won't, you can never have too much vanilla. 23:24:29 elliott: No, it will just make it optionally, I guess. 23:25:08 * Sgeo fails o comprehend zzo38's statement 23:25:12 to 23:25:12 elliott: ♥ vanilla. 23:25:28 Best alcoholic beverage ever. :P 23:25:39 pikhq: getting intoxicated on vanilla would be the best thing ever 23:25:43 pikhq: have you ever tasted pure vanilla extract? 23:25:57 it's ambrosia. 23:26:03 or nectar. 23:26:04 whatever. 23:28:50 elliott: I have 23:28:58 pikhq: let us just 23:28:59 drink it forever 23:29:31 It's alcoholic? 23:29:51 Yes. Glug glug glug. 23:30:00 Sgeo: Alcohol is the solvent used for the extract. 23:30:00 Gregor: "Subtlty" is not a word; comic 54. 23:30:38 elliott: There's been at least one DUI from drinking vanilla. 23:31:01 pikhq: this knowledge is my favourite knowledge 23:31:44 Even more than the knowledge that just because someone said "You are now breathing manually", doesn't mean that when you forget, you are going to die? 23:33:03 Hmm. I want to try vanilla extract now, but I don't want the alcohol 23:33:57 What would happen if I tried vanilla powder? 23:34:25 Sgeo: You would be explosive; that is, assuming that you tried explosive vanilla powder! 23:35:56 Sgeo, try in what sense? 23:36:09 The same sense of drinking vanilla extract 23:36:20 Sgeo, but isn't that a powder? 23:36:31 Sgeo: i don't think you quite understand alcohol 23:36:32 Sgeo, of tiny black dots 23:36:32 Why can't I put a powder on my tongue 23:36:37 Vorpal: i don't think you quite understand vanilla essence 23:36:44 oh wait 23:36:46 yes, it is a powder 23:36:48 sorry misread Sgeo 23:36:49 elliott, vanilla as in the thing you use for icecream? 23:36:51 right? 23:36:53 Vorpal: yes :P 23:36:56 Vorpal: I missed that Sgeo said powder 23:37:04 elliott, how is alcohol involved in this? 23:37:06 `addquote Hmm. I want to try vanilla extract now, but I don't want the alcohol 23:37:14 Vorpal: Sgeo: Alcohol is the solvent used for the extract. 23:37:18 oh 23:37:25 Vorpal: vanilla essence is vanilla-flavoured alcohol :P but Sgeo worrying about the alcohol from it = LOL 23:37:36 264| Hmm. I want to try vanilla extract now, but I don't want the alcohol 23:37:37 good luck drinking enough to have any effect on anything... at all 23:37:45 heh 23:38:03 elliott, but the powder is just crunched vanilla iirc? 23:38:12 Vorpal: presumably 23:38:14 elliott: There's been at least one DUI from drinking vanilla. 23:38:21 Sgeo: That person ingested a whole tank of vanilla :P 23:38:28 Have you SEEN how tiny the bottles are? 23:38:38 Sgeo: Also, the taste is VERY strong. Drinking a teaspoon would be difficult. 23:38:41 elliott, but actually using fresh vanilla pods for your icecream tastes way better 23:38:45 elliott: You can get very large bottles of it. 23:38:45 elliott, I had that once or twice 23:38:47 One or two drops gives a very strong taste. 23:38:50 pikhq: well right but why would you want to 23:38:55 I mean, it can't be compared to the usual icecream 23:38:57 it is that good 23:39:00 pikhq: it's not like you'll ever use it up ever :P 23:39:06 elliott: My mom bought a couple once. A few years back. 23:39:08 Still have it! 23:39:20 Thankfully, it's very good vanilla. 23:39:32 pikhq: What you need to be able to buy gallons of: MAPLE SYRUP. 23:39:36 YES 23:39:39 pikhq, that is like cayenne pepper. You buy it once every 10/20 years and it lasts forever. 23:39:42 pikhq: It is SO EXPENSIVE ;_; so you should just be able to buy it in bulk and keep it forever 23:39:49 pikhq: US probably has it ok, you're close to canada 23:39:53 Canada obviously has it in abundance 23:39:56 but in the UK it costs tons 23:40:00 Vorpal: You haven't seen my consumption of spice. 23:40:05 elliott, it is quite expensive yes 23:40:06 ok what about 23:40:09 ice cream with spice 23:40:10 elliott: The US also manufactures maple syrup. 23:40:12 and maple syrup 23:40:28 pikhq: yes but if you could buy "Canadian Maple Syrup" with a maple leaf on it or "American Maple Syrup" with the star-spangled banner 23:40:31 pikhq: tell me honestly now 23:40:34 pikhq: which would you buy 23:40:43 pikhq, I believe the glass bottle with cayenne downstairs is from the early 1970s, though mostly empty now 23:41:11 large metal new strainers > small plastic disgusting strainers 23:41:16 elliott: Depends on where in the US. 23:41:24 pikhq: STAR SPANGLED BANNER 23:41:33 Sgeo: are you going to try vanilla essence or are you drunk enough already 23:41:43 elliott, btw made a bunker myself. 23:41:46 now, night → 23:43:06 I can imagine using a drop of vanilla every half hour :/ 23:43:29 Or less 23:43:38 Sgeo: You might become dependent. 23:43:58 Can't tell if you're serious, but if you are, maybe I should stay away 23:45:38 Sgeo: Dude, you are crazy. 23:45:40 pikhq: Tell him he's crazy. 23:45:45 pikhq: Tell him how difficult it would be to get drunk. 23:46:04 -!- augur has joined. 23:46:10 Hypothetically, would there be a problem with just trying the powder? 23:46:18 Sgeo: It would taste like... powder. 23:46:35 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:50:31 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 23:53:21 pikhq: what is the secret of specialisation 23:55:30 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 23:56:20 Do you have an idea of how the computation class would vary by doing [1] a variant of FlooP with a REDPROGRAM command added, [2] a variant of BlooP with a REDPROGRAM command added?