00:01:18 <quintopia> elliott: Sasha2 was implying that the light pollution from our spectral wipe-out would prevent us from spotting incoming aliens. dark sky communities allow us to at least spot them on the visible spectrum at night.
00:01:34 <elliott> i don't think he was implying that we couldn't see them
00:01:36 <elliott> * Sasha2 imagines an alien race that sees that spectrum wiping us out because of light pollution
00:01:39 <elliott> just that they'd wipe us out.
00:02:42 <Sasha2> no, I was implying that if an alien race could see them
00:02:49 <Sasha2> they may attempt to explode us
00:06:57 <elliott> so not that we couldn't see them.
00:08:17 * Sgeo likes the thought of GTK+ or Qt being an option in a program
00:08:27 <Sgeo> Just set this preference, the program switches
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00:12:48 <elliott> Sgeo: that is the stupidest thing ever
00:12:50 <Vorpal> elliott, I was falling in a boat while it happened
00:12:54 <elliott> Vorpal: "Well, I won't rent whole layers, most likely. Do you have any idea how big 128x128 is?"
00:13:01 <Vorpal> elliott, result: flying dutchman
00:13:18 <Vorpal> elliott, I have no fucking clue what will happen when I reconnect
00:13:26 <Vorpal> elliott, probably loss of boat at the very least
00:13:31 <elliott> Vorpal: The bottom few floors will be obsidian-bordered (eventually) and be for a post-apocalyptic scenario; supplies and such to build the world outside. After all, where is more secure than in the sea, bordered by obsidian, at the very bottom of the map, with bedrock?
00:13:36 <Vorpal> elliott, and I answered "yes"
00:13:56 <elliott> Vorpal: The top floor will be... I don't know, something snazzy. Indeed, though, floor 0 will be fun.
00:14:10 <Vorpal> elliott, also my mines cover more than 128x128x2 considering amount of cobblestone
00:14:25 <elliott> Although you'll enter it from the regular sea-level ground at floor -(small); there'll be a tunnel with stairs going just below sea level, and then a short walk to a hole in a low-numbered below-sea floor.
00:14:28 <elliott> Then you can go up if you wish.
00:14:39 <elliott> There will also be a lower-down minecart startion, and a skyway connection higher up.
00:15:31 <Vorpal> elliott, I'll probably establish an embassy there if it ever gets done
00:15:40 <Vorpal> elliott, also up again
00:16:03 <elliott> Vorpal: Do you know how big the grid of large chests are?
00:16:10 <elliott> Is it 2x the grid of small chests? (And what's that?)
00:16:16 <elliott> You see, I need to store 81 thousand pieces of something...
00:16:53 <Vorpal> elliott, you need a boatlevator in that thing from top to bottom
00:17:18 <Vorpal> elliott, measurements: 2x3 shaft, and 5 spaces away a 2x2 shaft
00:17:23 <elliott> Vorpal: I was planning on just having a straight staircase that makes you turn around whenever it reaches a wall, and a multi-width ladder all the way.
00:17:25 <Vorpal> elliott, some extra space needed at bottom
00:17:29 <elliott> Boatlevators seem... unreliable.
00:17:37 <Vorpal> elliott, they are faster, and quite reliable for me.
00:17:47 <Vorpal> elliott, it is just everyone else that can't ride mine
00:18:00 <elliott> So they're hard to use. :p
00:18:02 <Vorpal> elliott, I guess they are trying to stear the boat or something
00:18:06 <Vorpal> which is just very very wrong
00:18:25 <elliott> It's hard to avoid steering it...
00:18:34 <Vorpal> elliott, do not touch arrow keys
00:18:42 <Vorpal> elliott, that way you don't stear it
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00:23:06 <elliott> ineiros: Can I have a /tp ehird BCxVAhxWQxi?
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00:47:25 <Sgeo> Oh look, I just fixed a broken test case in Newspeak
00:48:46 * Sgeo hits whoever wrote these tests for using ~=
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00:54:33 <elliott> Vorpal: "Additionally, when Water is placed inside a "+" shaped pillar, the player can still interact with the water through the northwest indent of the "+". This allows a pillar of water to act as an elevator much quicker than a descending waterfall, as the downward motion of the water inside the pillar has no effect. The ascension rate is comparable to ladders at a lower cost, as one only needs a bucket and some building material. It is interes
00:54:33 <elliott> ting to note that if a block is removed from the pillar, exposing the water, the downward pull will slow the player's ascent for the next few blocks."
00:55:24 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm still not sure where to place The Cube.
00:55:29 <Vorpal> elliott, issue with that however is that you will be inside the water
00:55:35 <Vorpal> elliott, not partly inside it
00:58:23 <pikhq> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXW0bx_Ooq4
01:00:55 <pikhq> I love that Chrysler actually made that video.
01:01:31 <Vorpal> elliott, up but I disconnected
01:03:14 <Vorpal> <pikhq> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXW0bx_Ooq4 <-- what, that is so much jargon I have no clue about
01:03:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, is it technobabel?
01:03:30 <Sgeo> There are four languages in the current Newspeak prototype
01:03:43 <elliott> Vorpal: No, it's technology.
01:04:02 <Vorpal> elliott, I never heard of that :P
01:04:42 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yeah, it's a turboëncabulator. It supplies inverse reactive current for use in unilateral phase detractors, and automatically synchronises cardinal grammeters.
01:04:49 <Sgeo> Subclasses of Language:
01:05:03 <Vorpal> pikhq, indeed pure technobabel
01:05:11 <Sgeo> NewsqueakLanguage0 NewsqueakLanguage1 NewsqueakLanguage2 SmalltalkLanguage
01:05:44 <elliott> Sgeo: Stop looking at Newspeak right now; close every relevant window.
01:06:41 <Sgeo> elliott, besides the youngness, is there a good reason not to like Newspeak?
01:07:06 <Vorpal> pikhq, anyway it became blatantly apparent during the diagnosis part that it was a joke
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01:07:59 <pikhq> Vorpal: The bit about running additional tests that serve to increase billable hours is a dead giveaway, isn't it?
01:07:59 -!- Leonidas_ has changed nick to Leonidas.
01:09:20 <Vorpal> pikhq, that and some other things
01:09:45 <Vorpal> pikhq, such as "for the purposes of obscurity we have removed the casing"
01:10:43 <Vorpal> pikhq, or the bit that any systems faults would be displayed in secret code
01:11:15 <Vorpal> pikhq, also "manual and songbook"
01:11:38 <Vorpal> also that a Geiger scale would be involved :P
01:12:33 <Vorpal> pikhq, and further the bit about what would be covered in the next month :P
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01:13:18 <Vorpal> pikhq, but the first part I could only catch because I realised that was too much jargon :P
01:13:23 * Sgeo ponders a possible fix for a certain annoyance
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01:17:20 <pikhq> Vorpal: Hint: the jargon is meaningless.
01:17:53 <Vorpal> pikhq, indeed I realise that
01:18:08 <pikhq> Also, "dingle arm" is an inherently hilarious phrase.
01:18:21 <Vorpal> pikhq, but I'm no car expert so it took me a a few tens of of seconds to figure out what was going on :P
01:21:01 <elliott> i know nothing about cars but it's obvious
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01:28:23 <Vorpal> pikhq, I remember reading about a Swedish company that manufactured screws got strange results on a 1 April joke ad
01:28:31 * Sgeo wikiwalks in Newspeak
01:29:07 <Vorpal> pikhq, basically they made an ad for stuff like T-shaped screws and dual-head screws for extra torque. On 1 April one year during the 1970s or so
01:29:22 <Vorpal> pikhq, they actually got phoned by people who tried to seriously order these "products"
01:30:22 <Gregor> Both T-shaped and double-headed screws have legitimate uses, and the former most certainly exists.
01:32:11 <Vorpal> Gregor, not the way these were done :P
01:32:32 <Vorpal> Gregor, it was like a screw that split into two part way up like an actual T
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01:33:05 <Vorpal> Gregor, and the dual head one looked like:
01:33:14 <Vorpal> (best viewed with mono-space)
01:33:26 <Vorpal> and I don't think that would work
01:34:02 <Vorpal> Gregor, also I believe they had a flexible screw. and a few more that I don't remember
01:34:43 <Vorpal> Gregor, and can you explain what "hyuk" means
01:35:01 <Gregor> "Hyuk" is a folksy laugh :P
01:35:02 <Vorpal> Gregor, or was "yup" the translation?
01:35:45 <Vorpal> Gregor, anyway what would a "real" t-shaped screw be?
01:36:03 <Gregor> Just a screw with a T-shaped end opposite the screw proper.
01:36:22 <Vorpal> Gregor, oh you mean the shape that the screwdriver fits into?
01:36:41 <Vorpal> Gregor, well this was indeed... More literal
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02:36:41 <Goosey> Is it bad to have fun with trolling?
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02:50:53 <elliott> Vorpal: how did nailor do his underwater thing?
02:53:44 <elliott> coppro: "On behalf of Google and the University of Waterloo Computer Science Club, we would like to thank everybody who took part in the Google AI Challenge."
02:53:54 <elliott> oh wait, it's your challenge
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03:09:36 * Sgeo submits a bug report
03:22:24 <elliott> http://iphone-chieftain.blogspot.com/2009/04/tweetsheet-10-released.html twitter client implemented in excel
03:29:31 <Gregor> elliott: Welp, time to kill myself.
03:29:59 <Gregor> elliott: Twitter in excel = time to end it all
03:30:09 <elliott> Gregor: no this is like a new age in human existence
03:30:26 <elliott> 10:38:14 <elliott> Gregor: 14:53:14 * GregorR-W doesn't even know what tldr means :P
03:30:26 <elliott> 10:38:14 <elliott> 14:53:51 <kipple> heh, I had to look that one up too
03:30:26 <elliott> 10:38:14 <elliott> 14:54:36 <GregorR-W> Too Long Didn't Read?
03:30:26 <elliott> 10:38:14 <elliott> 14:54:38 <GregorR-W> XD
03:30:27 <Gregor> elliott: Yes. The time without me.
03:30:33 <elliott> Gregor: are you ashamed of 2006 you
03:30:40 <elliott> bet he didn't even like dinosaur comics
03:31:11 <Gregor> Clearly he liked reading.
03:31:20 <Gregor> Since he didn't understand what it was for something to be too long to read.
03:31:26 <Gregor> Therefore, he probably liked Dinosaur Comics.
03:31:33 <Gregor> But then, we'll never know; he's dead now.
03:31:36 <elliott> Gregor: dude you blew my mind.
03:31:43 <elliott> Gregor: well um, you recommended hextris in 2006
03:31:47 <elliott> and that's why my brain exploded
03:31:55 <elliott> 09:06:37 <elliott> 23:49:05 <GregorR> I love how devfs survived for like a year :-P
03:31:55 <elliott> 09:06:37 <elliott> 23:49:34 <calamari> yeah, what was wrong with it? worked for me
03:31:55 <elliott> 09:06:37 <elliott> 23:50:04 <GregorR> I really don't know.
03:31:55 <elliott> 09:06:37 <elliott> 23:50:08 <GregorR> Always worked great for me.
03:32:10 <elliott> Gregor: we can clearly see here your ignorance of linux kernel maintenance practices
03:32:23 <Gregor> I'm still ignorant of Linux kernel maintenance practices.
03:32:25 <elliott> Gregor: namely, that any system replacing another system is accepted IFF it is more pointlessly flexible and complex
03:32:38 <elliott> Gregor: and that putting XML into the kernel is never a bad thing (see HAL)
03:32:48 <elliott> Gregor: those are the entire set of rules, actually
03:32:50 <elliott> Gregor: wait, there's one more
03:32:56 <Gregor> elliott: IIRC, there was a time between devfs and udev when it was back to flat /dev.
03:32:58 <elliott> Gregor: nobody must do *anything* to make the experience nicer for desktop users
03:33:15 <elliott> because... because fuck you, we don't want the day of the linux desktop
03:33:45 <Gregor> Thereby invalidating your point ...
03:33:56 <elliott> Gregor: no, a mere historical anomaly
03:34:01 <elliott> just average the slope out, man
03:34:02 <elliott> Gregor: devfs is back in the kernel now, it's called devtmpfs, it runs on tmpfs, and they snuck it in by saying it provides an environment for an initramfs before udev is loaded
03:34:10 <elliott> Gregor: i fully intend to use it and nothing else in Kitten :)
03:34:34 <elliott> Gregor: the reactions were varied
03:34:36 <elliott> "Lol, devfs." --Andrew Morton
03:34:44 <elliott> "Lol, devfs." --Andrew Morton again
03:34:50 <elliott> (actual direct quote, although he only said it once)
03:35:10 <elliott> Gregor: have you ever looked at /etc/udev
03:35:46 <elliott> Gregor: Found a non-GNU binutils yet? :P
03:36:26 <Gregor> elliott: Haven't even looked :P
03:36:51 <elliott> Gregor: looks like i will be using uClibc anyway, so that's a vaguely gnu-infested (some code copied from glibc) component
03:37:08 <elliott> Gregor: and, well, i do have to use gcc to compile kernel and uClibc itself
03:37:15 <elliott> but i should be able to use pcc for most other things
03:37:16 <Gregor> elliott: Yeahyeah, I get it, you lurve blowing the Gnu.
03:37:24 <elliott> Gregor: i dont man its a hard fuckin life
03:37:42 <elliott> Gregor: i did get a pcc/dietlibc toolchain fully self-bootstrapped, but dietlibc is probably too opinionated with anything :P
03:37:58 <elliott> Gregor: i did get a pcc/dietlibc toolchain fully self-bootstrapped, but dietlibc is probably too opinionated to use with with anything :P
03:39:07 <elliott> Gregor: i mean... patches welcome y'all
03:39:23 <elliott> Gregor: I seem to have found a coreutils in busybox, even if busybox has bits of lameness
03:40:35 <elliott> Gregor: man if you want a non-gnu linux you're gonna have to work for it that involves TALKIN man
03:40:54 <Gregor> I don't want one, I just want to see one :P
03:40:55 <elliott> or do you want to let linux distros fellate rms UNTIL THE END OF TIME????
03:41:03 <elliott> Gregor: YOU HAVE TO WORK TOWARDS IT
03:42:11 <elliott> Gregor: ur motivation reaches all-time lowz
03:42:56 <Sgeo> If I click a button and stupidly don't change the stupid default, deleting the result should not cause a crash
03:43:41 <elliott> SHUT UP I'M TIRED ENOGUH WITHUOUT YOU
03:44:15 <elliott> fizzie: this could be you http://i.imgur.com/iCDrN.png
03:44:38 <Gregor> And the Gnu just rolls over and grumbles when he's done with elliott; they never /talk/ any more.
03:44:52 <elliott> i know its like our relationship has reached a plateau of hate
03:45:05 <elliott> and i fear that every move will only send me down a slippery slope
03:45:09 <elliott> its why im tryin to get out man
03:45:12 <elliott> its why im tryin to break free
03:45:40 <Gregor> The persistent interspecies pedophilic rape isn't part of it?
03:46:30 <elliott> Gregor: no, i blame 4chan for that
03:47:38 -!- elliott has left (?).
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03:47:55 <elliott> Gregor: does xorg build with non-gcc i wonder
03:48:15 <Gregor> elliott: It certainly did in the 7.0 days
03:48:42 <elliott> pcc is kind of old and crusty and it's nice and it's learning these C99 ways, but sometimes it falls down and can't get up and what why would you even do that
03:48:43 <Gregor> Or whatever bizarre name that compiler has/had.
03:48:45 <elliott> what would possess you to do that
03:49:08 <elliott> Gregor: even if i didn't have a handy checklist of reasons not to buy intel
03:49:11 <elliott> Gregor: that would convince me.
03:49:27 <elliott> Gregor: how many babies did they rape and then grind up to use in chips, i mean in an average day
03:50:35 <elliott> Gregor: oh and i kinda need gcc for C++
03:50:39 <Gregor> Well, judging by the trucks, assuming maybe 250 per truck (average weight, stacked) I'd say about 1,250/day. Assuming they were in cages in the trucks, they could have really only fit maybe 80, making a much more conservative ~400/day
03:50:46 <elliott> Gregor: getting llvm/clang working with static linking is like on my list of things that are "not" fun, as in not fun
03:51:06 <elliott> Gregor: however the only C++ thing i want to ship is like, webkit :)
03:51:11 <elliott> and openjdk or whatever, to run minecraft.
03:51:29 <elliott> Gregor: they didn't use cages in fact they dehydrated the babies furst, what's the term
03:51:39 <elliott> like when you get tried fruit or, what they make concentrate juice from
03:52:00 <Gregor> At least, not judging by the screams.
03:52:09 <elliott> Gregor: they rehydrated them before the process moron
03:52:28 <elliott> (wikileaks and netcraft merged )
03:52:43 <elliott> "IAmA former smoker, quit one year ago today, and YOU SHOULD QUIT SMOKING TODAY!"
03:53:12 <Gregor> elliott: Then you'll have to start, so you can QUIT TODAY.
03:53:29 <elliott> what do severe chain smokers get through
03:54:02 <Gregor> But I wouldn't be surprised by 10.
03:54:10 <elliott> Gregor: see i believed you there you destroyed my trust
03:54:18 <elliott> Gregor: i think ill break up with you too
03:54:31 <elliott> "Boy, 2, Smokes Two Packs a Day"
03:54:53 <elliott> "He cries and throws tantrums when we don't let him smoke. He's addicted," his father, Mohammad Rizal, says.
03:55:01 <elliott> i think there is a clear sourec of blame going on here
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03:55:12 <elliott> i think its hard for your baby to go out on the streets and smoke cigarettes
03:55:15 <elliott> you sort of have to give him one i think
03:55:17 <elliott> Gregor: can you confirm this
03:55:39 <Gregor> In the US, Barney advertises for Marlboro.
03:56:14 <elliott> Gregor: <3 you have to make that now
03:56:19 <augur> BUT IN SOVIETY RUSSIA
03:56:27 <augur> MARLBORO ADVERTISES FOR BAAAARNEY
03:56:47 <Gregor> In Soviet Russia, Object Verb Subject!
03:56:56 <elliott> but not soviet in and of itself
03:56:57 <Sgeo> Mohammed Rizal seemed unconcerned.
03:56:57 <Sgeo> "He looks pretty healthy to me. I don't see the problem," he said.
03:56:57 <Sgeo> Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/lifestyle/health/2010/05/26/2010-05-26_video_tragic_toddler_ardi_rizal_has_twopackaday_cigarette_habit.html#ixzz16vIwvOyv
03:57:04 <Sgeo> FUCK YOU WEIRD JAVASCRIPT
03:58:37 <augur> soviety is a type because t and y are close together
03:58:46 <augur> its indicative of palatalization on the t
03:59:11 <elliott> augur: yur a horrible erpson
04:01:42 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/basedefs/xbd_chap08.html look at the end, the specification of TZ; looks like you can define DST and stuff in $TZ itself
04:02:03 <elliott> ln -s /share/timezones/uk /etc/tz
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04:03:52 <Sgeo> What happens if I want to do implicit logarithmic differentiation of, say, y = -4x
04:04:13 <Sgeo> ln y = ln -4x = (ln -4) + (ln x)
04:04:29 <Sgeo> 1/y dy/dx = 1/x
04:04:36 <Sgeo> dy/dx = y/x = x/x = 1
04:04:53 <Sgeo> I'm too tired aren't I
04:05:22 <Sgeo> ... it's not a problem with the negatives
04:05:27 <Sgeo> It's a problem with my thinking
04:05:42 <Sgeo> Where's the problem with my thinking?''
04:07:36 <elliott> note to self: look into doing something like inbetween anarchy golf and all those project euler, sphere online judge things except realtime'd. because why go outside to BATTLE PROGRAM
04:11:13 <pikhq> elliott: Sooo. TZ is much more flexible than tzdata.
04:11:38 <elliott> pikhq: Yes, just more manual. I have a feeling tzdata might be an extremely old, pre-TZ way of mapping names to things like this. :p
04:11:51 <elliott> pikhq: So basically I can just maintain a set of common timezones and everyone else can just write their own fucking string.
04:12:12 <elliott> pikhq: (I could also see about extracting them from the typical tz database if I decide to be crazy.)
04:12:34 <pikhq> elliott: You could just parse it from the file they compile *into* the tz database.
04:13:06 <pikhq> Also, not "the typical" one. It's *the* tz database. http://www.twinsun.com/tz/tz-link.htm
04:14:15 <elliott> pikhq: I just said "the typical" to avoid ambiguity with the "TZ" name of the environment variable.
04:14:30 <elliott> [[To use the database on an extended POSIX implementation set the TZ environment variable to the location's full name, e.g., TZ="America/New_York".]]
04:14:40 <pikhq> Why yes, yes it does.
04:14:42 <elliott> TZ has to start with a : to be treated in an implementation-dependent way rather than the TZ specification.
04:15:10 <pikhq> Moral of the story: nothing is POSIXly correct.
04:16:06 <elliott> pikhq: POSIX is kind of a useless standard, based on a status quo that doesn't exist, specifying nothing.
04:16:13 <elliott> It's only useful as a reference manual.
04:16:31 <pikhq> It would at least be useful if everyone tried to follow it.
04:16:46 <elliott> pikhq: Oh man, these files are painfully complex.
04:16:48 <elliott> ftp://elsie.nci.nih.gov/pub/tzdata2010o.tar.gz
04:16:57 <elliott> RuleUruguay2005only-Oct 9 2:001:00S
04:16:57 <elliott> RuleUruguay2006only-Mar12 2:000-
04:16:58 <pikhq> As it is, it specifies the "platonic ideal UNIX".
04:17:01 <elliott> RuleUruguay2006max-OctSun>=1 2:001:00S
04:17:01 <elliott> RuleUruguay2007max-MarSun>=8 2:000-
04:17:03 <elliott> Zone America/Montevideo-3:44:44 -LMT1898 Jun 28
04:17:03 <elliott> -3:44:44 -MMT1920 May 1# Montevideo MT
04:17:04 <elliott> -3:30UruguayUY%sT1942 Dec 14# Uruguay Time
04:17:09 <elliott> I don't want to parse that, dude.
04:17:35 <elliott> pikhq: [[Numeric time zone abbreviations typically count hours east of UTC, e.g., +09 for Japan and -10 for Hawaii. However, the POSIX TZ environment variable uses the opposite convention. For example, one might use TZ="JST-9" and TZ="HST10" for Japan and Hawaii, respectively.]]
04:17:51 <elliott> pikhq: POSIX: Oh, we know of your world standard. We decided it wasn't logical enough and replaced it.
04:17:51 <pikhq> Yeah, that's just oldschool brain damage.
04:22:11 <elliott> Well, let's try this sleep thing again.
04:22:23 <elliott> pikhq: If I can get uClibc compiled, maybe this Kitten thing will actually happen soon. :p
04:22:32 <elliott> Perhaps it shall be a Christmas present of pain, suffering and difficult installation.
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04:23:54 * pikhq makes a prediction: elliott wins the world record for failure to sleep, and then passes out of exhaustion.
04:24:08 <pikhq> Oh, and by the end of it RAINBOW PONIES
05:02:40 * Sgeo randomly modifies the Newspeak IDE
05:03:10 <Sgeo> Works as expected
05:03:18 <Sgeo> But as expected is not as useful as I want
05:07:05 <Goosey> I just found out this kid I hit the other day brought a gun to school
05:07:14 <Goosey> He had cocaine on him too.
05:08:02 * Sgeo makes it more useful
05:08:53 <Sgeo> My IDE modification, not the cocaine
05:10:03 <Sgeo> elliott: In some fashion, remind me that I have simple but awesome changes in SelectorPresenter
05:12:12 <Sgeo> I just need to pretty it up a bit
05:15:43 <Sgeo> "Did you know? It's 12:14:55 am. Go get some rest!"
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05:59:25 <pikhq> Poor, poor Kingdom of the Netherlands.
05:59:32 <pikhq> It has 3 distinct currencies.
06:01:05 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that with Smalltalk, Factor, and now Newspeak, I have attempted to make a contribution to the language
06:01:20 <pikhq> Euro in the Netherlands, Netherlands Antillean guilder in the BES Islands, Curaçao and Sint Maarten, and Aruban florin in Aruba.
06:01:28 <Sgeo> (Um, "language" is the wrong word)
06:01:37 <pikhq> Yes, the nation's currency is dependent on *which part of it you're in*.
06:02:57 <pikhq> Granted, everything but the Netherlands itself is one of several small islands, not physically contiguous at all, but hey. It's still crazy.
06:04:07 <pikhq> (for those confused: the Kingdom of the Netherlands has a similar setup to the UK, in that it's a monarchy over several constituent countries which form a single nation.)
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06:37:03 <pikhq> ... Huh. Apparently Linux's filesystem handling is such that processes can have a private set of mount points.
06:37:16 <pikhq> That is to say, much like Plan 9, Linux offers per-process namespaces.
06:37:23 <pikhq> I know of nothing that actually uses this *at all*.
06:42:08 <Gregor> MIDI breath controllers: Too - damned - expensive.
06:44:32 <pikhq> My God. One could actually pretty much *have* Plan 9 just by replacing the Linux userspace.
06:46:48 <augur> eggnog is so delicious
06:46:49 <Sgeo> Gregor, coming from you, that's saying something. I think.
06:49:06 <pikhq> Hmm. That'd take a bit of doing for some of the really nice bits of Plan 9.
06:49:26 <pikhq> (making a cluster by union mounting the /proc of a few different systems together, for instance)
06:50:44 <Sgeo> Installing Mercurial apparently causes Newspeak to automatically use it
06:50:52 * Sgeo should bother at some point
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09:13:31 <ais523> gah, the hard part of adminning #esoteric is occasionally I have to check twice whether something's spam or not
09:13:51 <ais523> I mean, someone adds a random sequence of letters and punctuation to the hello world list, is that spam or an esoprogram?
09:14:12 <ais523> (it's easy to tell, generally, but requires concious thought, I can't let spamfighting go on mental automatic)
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09:19:27 <oklopol> i dreamt i was playing minecraft on the esoserver
09:19:48 <oklopol> and dying meant being banned forever
09:21:45 <oklopol> anyway there were these areas that were apparently "close to hell" where destroying a block might start a chain reaction that opened up this huge hole on the ground, and you had to run for your lives
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09:22:07 <oklopol> and then the elf in my party had a lesbian relationship with her twin or clone or whatever
09:26:56 <oklopol> also in the world, islands weren't separated by water, but by emptiness, with only a bridge of sparsely distributed single blocks you could jump on to get across, i was sent to build a proper bridge across of these, alone, and my father told me i shouldn't go into the cave without torches because of all the foxes.
09:27:19 <oklopol> and because it's particularly hard to use electricity in that particular cave... i had no idea what he was talking about
09:48:03 <Vorpal> <oklopol> and then the elf in my party had a lesbian relationship with her twin or clone or whatever <-- err
09:52:36 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: how did nailor do his underwater thing? <-- before health
09:53:06 <Vorpal> elliott: also iirc he first did top down and got horrible streams, I helped fix those. then the rest he built top down
09:53:24 <Vorpal> elliott: but since you don't plan to have water above the thingy you will build, that shouldn't be a problem
09:54:02 <Vorpal> err the rest he built bottom up I meant
09:54:07 <Vorpal> elliott: also I believe he kept moving a dirt barrier forward when he built it bottom-uå
09:54:32 <oklopol> generally everything has sex with everything in my dreams
09:55:21 <oklopol> i make things have sex whenever i have lucid moments, and my dreams are usually half-lucid
09:55:34 <oklopol> that i "kinda" know they are dreams
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11:09:52 <ais523> `addquote <oklopol> i make things have sex whenever i have lucid moments, and my dreams are usually half-lucid
11:10:20 <ais523> also, a bridge of sparsely distributed single blocks sounds like every platform game ever
11:10:26 <ais523> especially over emptiness
11:10:30 <ais523> what color was the emptiness?
11:10:51 <ais523> (or was color not a property it had? I find in my dreams, at least, many objects don't have properties you'd naturally expect them to have)
11:11:53 <HackEgo> 266|<oklopol> i make things have sex whenever i have lucid moments, and my dreams are usually half-lucid
11:13:07 <ais523> oklopol: hmm, likely one of the Mario games then
11:13:36 <oklopol> i don't recall objects not having properties, but they certainly have properties they usually couldn't have, like being really scary, or "proving something", a property normal objects can't have, if they actually prove something, it's on an intellectual level, not emotional, although in tv series it does happen, since you sometimes aren't really following the technobabble, but you get that "oh my god that table has a *scratch* on it!"
11:14:41 <ais523> I know while I'm dreaming I don't notice all sorts of logical inconsistencies, I just assume that's the way the world works
11:14:59 <ais523> in fact, I'm remarkably unsuspicious while asleep, it helps to stop me noticing I'm asleep and waking up
11:16:11 <oklopol> i tend to check i'm awake every now and then, when i'm awake, it's something they tell you should do if you want to get lucid dreams, i do it partly because of that, and partly because i occasionally confuse reality and my dreams
11:17:39 <oklopol> which is basically schizophrenia, luckily it's rather rare
11:18:38 <oklopol> at least i've understood you should always know, when you're awake, whether things have happened or not, if you have a clear memory of them
11:18:54 <perdito> objects need properties to be identified, or even instanced as objets.. regarding to them as objects is the intellectual job, i think.. it's focussing on certain aspects of beeing.. and there is and infinite number of them out there
11:20:00 <perdito> we are better artist,then we have thought, as master eckhard says
11:20:19 <perdito> we construct the world.. on the fly
11:21:56 <oklopol> i find it interesting that i can come up with awesome objects and worlds, compose okay songs, and come up with plots that make at least a little bit of sense, but math... i do it every day, but in my dreams, all the math parts seem like a 1st grader wrote them :\
11:22:00 <perdito> in our dreams, the doors of perception seem to open a little more
11:23:38 <oklopol> perdito: dunno about that, the way you think in dreams is the way you think when you're not really concentrated, except that you can send yourself sensory input, methinks.
11:24:23 <perdito> concentration = closing the doors of perception.. focusing.. filter the rest.. or even just identify and matter no more!
11:25:54 <oklopol> i can construct the same worlds in my head i do when i'm dreaming, i just explore them in a different, more pleasing way; the fact you can actually look at the world, as if through your eyes, doesn't really aid the process, it's just nice.
11:26:38 <oklopol> perdito: i find it a bit hard to follow your train of thought, and my meaningless poetry sensor starts beeping, no offense, i'm really trying :D
11:26:53 <oklopol> i guess i may be a bit hard to follow as well
11:27:11 <oklopol> yeah maybe i get your doors of perception
11:28:02 <oklopol> "or even just identify and matter no more!"
11:28:02 <perdito> sry.. my english prevents me to express myself clearer
11:28:16 <oklopol> that part is a bit hard to
11:29:18 <oklopol> i copy pasted that from yours to ask "what?"
11:29:58 <oklopol> if by "mattering" you mean "making a difference", in some deep philosophical sense, then i don't think we're talking about the same subject
11:30:53 <oklopol> i'm mostly interested in the fact the dreaming brain seems to shut off certain functions, for instance obviously the part responsible for math
11:30:57 <perdito> concentration is not required to percept the world around us! ..even worse! it makes us filter out all the "useless" information out there.. the infinity
11:31:06 <oklopol> which i find intuitive, but definititely not obvious
11:31:21 <oklopol> because certain parts of the brain are just as alive as they are awake
11:31:40 <oklopol> like the part that processes human relationships, that's on crack when you're dreaming
11:32:14 <oklopol> i'd like to mention, once again, the countless times i've fallen asleep reading math, and had the mathematical concepts turn into human relationships in a millisecond
11:32:45 <oklopol> in silly and intuitive ways, like a pair might be a marriage
11:32:50 <oklopol> and a list might be a queue
11:34:17 <oklopol> "<perdito> concentration is not required to percept the world around us! ..even worse! it makes us filter out all the "useless" information out there.. the infinity" <<< i don't know what the infinity is, but yeah, this may be true, although i think it's a side-effect, not in any way inherently necessary for concentration
11:34:52 <perdito> as huxley said, we need both:
11:34:58 <oklopol> usually when i concentrate, i fall into a trance and don't really have any idea what i'm doing or what people are doing around me, but i think that's mostly "my thing"
11:35:25 <oklopol> yeah maybe we need both, and maybe that's relevant here in some sense
11:35:53 <oklopol> sure sure, wing and wang, black and white.
11:36:43 <oklopol> listing analogies is fun and all, but it's the stuff the part of the brain does that lives when you're asleep. not the part that thinks, and i like to think when i'm awake.
11:37:12 <perdito> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Bergson#Creativity <-- interesting article
11:38:00 <ais523> hmm, esoidea: a lang that looks very like an existing lang, but has subtly different semantics
11:38:06 <ais523> C might be a good one to base it on
11:38:29 <ais523> my first idea is that instead of using break; to break out of a switch at the end of a case, instead you use continue; to /not/ break out
11:38:34 <oklopol> but nothing is what it seems
11:38:36 <ais523> oklopol: yep, identical syntax
11:38:56 <ais523> and ideally, it'd be similar enough that a program sort-of works like what you'd expect it to if you know the existing language
11:39:10 <ais523> for instance, you could make C call-by-name rather than call-by-value
11:39:15 <oklopol> okay i was thinking something completely insane that could never be realized, but yeah i like the sort-of-works thing
11:39:16 <ais523> and people wouldn't realise something was wrong until much later
11:40:10 <oklopol> so i actually decided to stay home today and do my master's thesis, so if i'm not gone in an hour, you're all welcome to tell me to fuck off
11:42:06 <oklopol> anyway to continue the dream thing, wouldn't it be awesome, if there really is a way to "switch off math" from the brain (which is my conjecture, although you may disagree with my rather pseudo-scientific evidence of this), to learn to do math without it
11:42:14 <oklopol> i love the idea of sucking at something, and learning to do it
11:42:52 <ais523> oklopol: esolangs are my way to do that, in a way
11:43:02 <ais523> you write an esolang which doesn't have maths in, you figure out how to implement it in that
11:44:21 <oklopol> yeah but it's different when you're programming your own brain, and especially when it's something that you are, at first, just inherently incapable of understanding
11:45:28 <oklopol> ...that you're implementing
11:47:59 <oklopol> i just have a serious brain fetish, that's all
11:48:24 <perdito> remember good ol' operation mindfuck?
11:48:43 <perdito> wilsons theories on metaprogramming our minds
11:49:38 <perdito> cosmic trigger.. illuminatus.. schroedingers cat and so on.. a lotta beatiful and funny books to read
11:50:08 <oklopol> i can't really stand pop sci
11:50:23 <oklopol> and i don't particularly enjoy fiction
11:50:47 <oklopol> not that i know what those books are about
11:51:54 <perdito> dunn wheter there ever will be a way to create sth like artficial intuition, but im sure we wont without channels as this
11:52:19 <perdito> and lucid dreaming programmers like you oklopol :)
11:55:17 <oklopol> would be fun if it turns out it's actually pretty easy to program a fully conscious program, it's just intuition is impossible to implement, these programs can play chess, and *know they're alive*, but they *still* can't love / realize a proof is essentially just an application of lagrange's theorem
11:55:21 <perdito> but first i really need to do sth bout this english-leaks
11:56:02 <oklopol> i'm not a programmer, i'm a mathematician! they call me "the computer scientist" at work, i work in the math dep :P
11:56:54 <ais523> oklopol: well, I was a mathematician first, then an engineer, then a computer scientist
11:56:56 <ais523> programming's just a hobby
11:57:19 <ais523> well, and I teach programming part-time
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11:58:26 <oklopol> "hey X, you're a computer scientist, wanna program this script for me?"
11:59:50 <perdito> softwaredev. needs it all.. maths, physics, pschycholgy, philosphy ..and ..uh..even martial arts *g
12:00:16 <oklopol> not seeing it, but easy to believe
12:00:45 <perdito> thanks 2 walls u can at least smash things on themt if they do not work as intended
12:01:12 <oklopol> ah and if you know your martial arts, you might still be able to type
12:03:43 <oerjan> <oklopol> usually when i concentrate, i fall into a trance [...] but i think that's mostly "my thing" <-- sounds like what they call "flow" to me
12:04:07 <oklopol> hmm? like you follow people and eat food etc but you're not really there
12:08:42 <oerjan> also i have this matrix-like idea that when we dream we are actually connected to a different universe in which mathematical logic _does not exist_
12:16:32 <oerjan> hm today's iwc ... i guess the universe really _is_ doomed (again)
12:19:30 <ais523> oerjan: that arguably makes sense
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12:20:27 <oerjan> yeah doom at new years is becoming a tradition
12:20:42 <ais523> oerjan: oh, I was referring to dreaming connected to a universe without mathematical logic
12:20:55 <ais523> while dreaming, you're in a universe made of disconnected parts of your own thoughts
12:21:01 <ais523> and mathematical logic tends not to be among them
12:21:34 <ais523> sometimes, when you wake up, you can reconstruct what parts of your dream-universe were made from
12:22:18 <oklofok> i often directly get something i've thought about during the day in my dream
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12:22:33 <oklofok> for instance that game where you can really die
12:22:56 <oklofok> it wasn't common for me, before one day i told someone that's never happened to me, and then i had a dream i told her that
12:22:58 <ais523> as in, if you die in the game, it kills the player not just the character?
12:23:03 <oerjan> oklofok: i vaguely recall in the logs _someone_ telling us to shout if he wasn't gone in an hour, about an hour ago
12:23:09 <ais523> oklofok: that's beautiful
12:23:43 <oklofok> ais523: also happened with that thing where your eye muscle starts repeatedly contracting, what's its name
12:23:58 <oklofok> then a girl said she'd been having that all day
12:24:09 <oklofok> i told her i'd never even heard about that kind of thing
12:24:40 <oklofok> after that it was quite common for a while, nowadays i can stop that kind of thing
12:25:08 <oklofok> btw i don't really believe my own stories even though i know they are true
12:26:24 <oklofok> and by i don't believe them i mean i find it hard to believe them
12:27:03 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasciculation
12:28:29 <oklofok> "hearing about this concept" is not listed as a cause
12:29:14 <oerjan> or possibly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myokymia
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12:30:11 <oklofok> yeah so okay i'm leaving after this ep
12:30:36 <oklofok> so if you need my expertise, ask now
12:31:39 <oerjan> oklofok: How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck would chuck wood?
12:32:07 <oklofok> depends on how it's changed to give it that ability
12:32:34 <oerjan> hm, imagine it being bitten by a radioactive beaver
12:34:00 <oklofok> it could chuck whole trees in a matter of hours
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12:34:27 <Vorpal> <oklofok> ais523: also happened with that thing where your eye muscle starts repeatedly contracting, what's its name <-- blinking?
12:34:47 <oklofok> that was actually pretty funny
12:35:54 <oerjan> oklofok never blinked before
12:38:13 <oklofok> will close irc and everything
12:38:21 <Vorpal> oklofok, going to what?
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13:14:44 <elliott> 22:44:32 <pikhq> My God. One could actually pretty much *have* Plan 9 just by replacing the Linux userspace.
13:15:06 <elliott> 01:13:31 <ais523> gah, the hard part of adminning #esoteric is occasionally I have to check twice whether something's spam or not
13:15:06 <elliott> 01:13:51 <ais523> I mean, someone adds a random sequence of letters and punctuation to the hello world list, is that spam or an esoprogram?
13:15:06 <elliott> 01:14:12 <ais523> (it's easy to tell, generally, but requires concious thought, I can't let spamfighting go on mental automatic)
13:15:10 <elliott> ais523: fail (first linem, #)
13:15:45 <elliott> 01:26:56 <oklopol> also in the world, islands weren't separated by water, but by emptiness, with only a bridge of sparsely distributed single blocks you could jump on to get across, i was sent to build a proper bridge across of these, alone, and my father told me i shouldn't go into the cave without torches because of all the foxes.
13:15:50 <elliott> this is better than minecraft
13:16:40 <elliott> 03:13:07 <ais523> oklopol: hmm, likely one of the Mario games then
13:19:22 <elliott> 03:59:50 <perdito> softwaredev. needs it all.. maths, physics, pschycholgy, philosphy ..and ..uh..even martial arts *g
13:19:29 <elliott> what, software development is trivial and involves none of those
13:20:31 <Vorpal> elliott, surely you know kung-fu is invaluable when dealing with java?
13:21:02 <elliott> i have used physics to debug a complex tangle of gnu makefiles once
13:21:15 <elliott> (i dropped the hard drive from the top of a tall building)
13:21:46 <elliott> :(, DMM licenses his comics non-freely.
13:21:47 <Vorpal> elliott, for being gnu, gnu make is quite decent
13:22:09 <Vorpal> elliott, depends on your definition
13:22:12 <elliott> discrimination against fields of endeavour
13:22:26 <Vorpal> elliott, it is freer than "all rights reserved"
13:22:27 <oerjan> elliott: shush, clearly perdito intends to start a new and glorious age of software development
13:22:30 <elliott> it's against the DFSG, the OSI definition
13:22:39 <oerjan> there may even be giant robots involved
13:22:46 <elliott> won't even bother looking up the FSF's opinion, i think it's obvious :)
13:22:55 <elliott> Vorpal: freer -- "i'm slightly pregnant"
13:22:57 <Vorpal> elliott, nd I would have considered non-free
13:23:09 <Vorpal> elliott, that reply made no sense...
13:23:23 <elliott> "my software is slightly unfree" -- "i'm slightly pregnant"
13:23:31 <elliott> Vorpal: if you consider -nc- free you also have to consider -njews- free
13:23:37 <Vorpal> elliott, law of excluded middle?
13:23:40 <elliott> i.e., anybody but jews can redistribute this software
13:24:48 <Vorpal> elliott, free is a gradual scale. GPL is free. BSD is more free. that "do wtf you want" license is in some sense even more free
13:25:05 <elliott> you do realise i'm using free in the Free sense?
13:25:16 <oerjan> <elliott> Vorpal: freer -- "i'm slightly pregnant" <-- this is ridiculous since nothing in our current world can be truly free, there are always limitations
13:25:19 <Vorpal> elliott, as for njews, sure it is freer than all rights reserved. That isn't saying it is a good idea though
13:25:28 <elliott> http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines, something is either entirely free or not free at all
13:25:33 <elliott> oerjan: um i don't see how that is true at all
13:25:37 <elliott> oerjan: please back that up
13:25:54 <Vorpal> elliott, you aren't free if you need to include info on who originally made it.
13:26:08 <elliott> not according to the definition of http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines
13:26:11 <Vorpal> (see, this makes no sense)
13:26:15 <elliott> I'm saying Free here, not free, you're stupid
13:26:32 <elliott> "Free" means one of a few well-defined set of conditions
13:26:34 <elliott> for instance, http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines
13:26:38 <Vorpal> elliott, you didn't use upper case above
13:26:43 <Vorpal> <elliott> :(, DMM licenses his comics non-freely.
13:26:50 <elliott> because the /other/ meaning of free is "costs no money"
13:27:01 <elliott> and i'm not about to start saying "libre"
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13:28:13 <Vorpal> elliott, sure it isn't DFSG compliant. But it is somewhat free.
13:28:26 <elliott> it is not Free(TM)(C)(R) at all
13:29:00 <Vorpal> perhaps. it is a lot more free than, for example, dillbert though.
13:29:32 <Vorpal> (insert other grammar fixes here)
13:29:55 <elliott> if you mean Free, then no, no it's not
13:30:33 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't mean the DFSG sense. It should be obvious
13:30:54 <Vorpal> elliott, since that is a boolean sense. While I clearly refer to a gradual sense
13:30:58 <elliott> Vorpal: if you mean libre, well, good luck defining a scale of libre
13:31:04 <elliott> because there isn't really one
13:31:06 <Vorpal> elliott, I never said that either
13:31:13 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm pretty sure you know what I mean
13:31:55 <elliott> Vorpal: ? I cannot think of any more definitions of free.
13:32:03 <elliott> Free, libre, and free as in beer
13:32:50 <Vorpal> elliott, the everyday sense that is a gradual scale from "all rights reserved, full DRM, costs a shitload" to "do what the fuck you want with this"
13:33:15 <elliott> remind me to avoid using confusing french around you in future
13:33:17 <Vorpal> elliott, libre is not actually a gradual scale as commonly defined afaik
13:33:55 <Vorpal> or not at least in the sense most commonly used in relation to software
13:35:18 <elliott> i wonder if booting without an initramfs/initrd actually works these days
13:35:49 <ais523> now I have to read scrollback to see what the argument was about
13:36:11 <elliott> ais523: me saying that no, an -nc- license is *not* Free, Vorpal misinterpreting this and saying "but it's MORE FREE!!"
13:36:21 <ais523> <elliott> ais523: it was Minecraft <--- the dream was clearly a modified Minecraft, I was trying to figure out what it was modified /by/
13:36:31 <elliott> repeat until Vorpal reveals that he's not able to infer "Free" from "free" by obvious context
13:36:45 <elliott> ais523: 01:22:07 <oklopol> and then the elf in my party had a lesbian relationship with her twin or clone or whatever
13:36:51 <elliott> ais523: what the heck is that from then :P
13:37:04 <ais523> elliott: he explained a bit later
13:37:26 <coppro> elliott: what time is it right now?
13:37:41 <coppro> elliott: what time is it right now
13:37:45 <ais523> coppro: 08:37:05 when I asked your client what time it was
13:37:46 <elliott> 01:22:07 <oklopol> and then the elf in my party had a lesbian relationship with her twin or clone or whatever
13:37:46 <elliott> 01:26:56 <oklopol> also in the world, islands weren't separated by water, but by emptiness, with only a bridge of sparsely distributed single blocks you could jump on to get across, i was sent to build a proper bridge across of these, alone, and my father told me i shouldn't go into the cave without torches because of all the foxes.
13:37:46 <elliott> 01:27:19 <oklopol> and because it's particularly hard to use electricity in that particular cave... i had no idea what he was talking about
13:37:47 <elliott> 01:54:32 <oklopol> generally everything has sex with everything in my dreams
13:37:49 <elliott> 01:55:21 <oklopol> i make things have sex whenever i have lucid moments, and my dreams are usually half-lucid
13:37:52 <elliott> 01:55:34 <oklopol> that i "kinda" know they are dreams
13:37:57 <elliott> ais523: i don't think that counts as explanation
13:38:11 <ais523> it's 13:37 in my timezone
13:39:03 <elliott> ais523: well, I doubt he'd go out of his way to indicate a particular relationship if by his own admission he made /everyone/ had a relationship-by-some-definition
13:39:13 <elliott> therefore i consider his dream an unexplained phenomenon.
13:39:25 <coppro> I don't have them often
13:39:31 <coppro> at least, I don't recall having them often
13:39:35 <coppro> probably I have them all the time
13:39:41 <ais523> you only remember a dream if you wake up during it
13:39:46 <ais523> that's why dreams never seem to get to the end
13:40:16 <elliott> ais523: do you have proof of that or a cite or whatever
13:40:24 <coppro> brains to seem to have this thing of not committing dreams to memory
13:40:28 <coppro> elliott: sounds about right
13:40:38 <oerjan> well sometimes you wake up because the dream does end, horribly
13:40:39 <ais523> elliott: no, it's something like third-hand info that I can't remember where I've read it
13:40:46 <ais523> but it's consistent with my experiences
13:40:50 <ais523> oerjan: arguably, that would be waking up during
13:40:52 <elliott> coppro: that doesn't count as evidence, though, especially because remembering what happens at the end of dreams just before you wake up is near-impossible
13:41:00 <coppro> elliott: It's all hear-say anyways
13:41:05 <elliott> i've woken up right when i died in dreams
13:41:10 <elliott> coppro: there is actual dream research.
13:41:15 <ais523> I'd say it's because you died in the dream and the dream was still continuing
13:41:22 <ais523> but the death was a really obvious sign you were dreaming
13:41:26 <ais523> and thus, a prompt to wake up
13:41:33 <coppro> yes, but we can't empirically measure dream retention
13:41:49 <ais523> I wonder if, if you were lucid dreaming, you could die in your dream and then keep lucid control over the afterlife
13:42:12 <elliott> coppro: pi don't think that's necessarily true
13:42:23 <coppro> I have to agree with ais523 on one thing, though
13:42:31 <ais523> I don't think it's obvious either way
13:42:38 <coppro> I only remember a dream if when I wake, I was dreaming right before
13:42:47 <coppro> (there. now we've avoided the "end of a dream" issue)
13:43:50 <elliott> but not clever enough for oerjan
13:43:57 <elliott> he will come and rip your soul out of your body
13:44:15 <elliott> Vorpal: btw, you said i shouldn't clobber owners on dirs etc. that have to be owned by a specific special-purpose user
13:44:31 <elliott> Vorpal: well, I'd have to chmod them in postinst anyway. because of course the target machine won't have the user, so the postinst script has to add it, and the UID might not be the same
13:45:48 <ais523> elliott: Debian actually has some sort of crazy systematic solution for that
13:45:54 <ais523> I can't remember what it is, but it's likely in debhelper somewhere
13:46:01 <elliott> ais523: and I have postinst scripts!!
13:46:23 <elliott> description needs scripts source.tar version website
13:46:27 <elliott> this package manager is comin' together
13:46:58 <elliott> ais523: I *think* I've avoided the problem of understanding yours and CLC-INTERCAL's versioning systems altogether (for upgrades)
13:47:00 <ais523> hmm, gitorious is down
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13:47:48 <elliott> ais523: I was considering bug-hunting C-INTERCAL to pass time, but then I realised I'd be entering the Realm of the ESR, and decided not to. you traitor :p
13:47:59 <elliott> (ok so i also decided it sounded like not much fun at all)
13:48:19 <ais523> you could try running the fuzz-tester, that's a) easy, and b) entirely written by me
13:48:41 <ais523> in fact, esr tried to stop me doing it (on the basis he thought I'd be wasting my time, admittedly, rather htan thinking it was necessarily a bad idea)
13:49:02 <elliott> ais523: the cathedral and the bazaar and the fascist dictatorial state
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13:49:17 <elliott> ais523:and -- oh, I meant actually analysing and modifying the code by hand
13:49:24 <elliott> (preferably avoiding running it)
13:49:36 <elliott> ais523: you need to re-fork it :p
13:51:04 <elliott> ais523: (or maybe I'll just write ITRALCEN!)
13:51:43 <elliott> ais523: apropos nothing at all, have you seen http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2010/12/haskell-researchers-announce-discovery.html?
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13:52:09 <elliott> [["I'm kind of surprised I'm the only person on earth who gives a shit about it," Briars continued. "I'd have thought there would be more people following the press releases closely and then not using Haskell. But they all just skip the press releases and go straight to the not using it part."]]
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14:00:17 <elliott> "Would you please do me the kindness of adding a second "l" and a second "t" to my last name ("Elliott") in your link?" --Conal Elliott
14:03:18 <oerjan> you'll have to start a secret society of elliotts
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14:07:59 <oerjan> elliott: i think someone's been reading a bit of onion
14:08:36 <elliott> oerjan: also http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2010/07/wikileaks-to-leak-5000-open-source-java.html
14:08:47 <elliott> oerjan: it's funnier than the onion though, with the onion you can usually just read the headline and skip the rest
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14:16:03 <elliott> ais523: would you appreciate the effort if I wrote something to convert every CPAN package to a Kitten package in the repos? :-P
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14:26:59 <Vorpal> elliott, do you know if python allows you to have values such as NaN and +/-inf for floating point without throwing exceptions?
14:27:10 <Vorpal> it seems to throw exceptions all the time when I try
14:27:54 <elliott> ValueError: invalid literal for float(): asdf
14:27:58 <elliott> Vorpal: but 1./0. is not allowed.
14:28:04 <Vorpal> elliott, ah that explains it.
14:28:08 <elliott> it raises a ZeroDivisionError
14:28:21 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed, I would have expected it to act as IEEE prescribes
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14:28:55 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, is float single or double?
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14:29:45 <Vorpal> well, I could do it as easily
14:29:53 <Vorpal> (which is the say, it involves some work)
14:30:10 <Vorpal> elliott, I wish the python REPL had tab complete
14:30:44 <elliott> Vorpal: put in ~/.pythonstartup
14:30:53 <elliott> readline.parse_and_bind('tab: complete')
14:31:05 <elliott> Vorpal: (and yes that works)
14:31:15 <Vorpal> why on earth is that not default then
14:31:35 <elliott> Vorpal: which is the python REPL so bloated, it's basically a shell
14:31:41 <elliott> but it syntax-highlights :P
14:32:03 <Vorpal> elliott, so wait, this will tab complete stuff like myintvar.<tab here> to list possible members?
14:32:09 <Vorpal> that is the rlcompleter thingy
14:32:12 <elliott> Vorpal: maybe. it certainly works with modules
14:32:20 <elliott> Vorpal: oh there's also bpython, which also has integrated docs: http://bpython-interpreter.org/screenshots/
14:32:41 <Vorpal> elliott, hm are you sure about ~/.pythonstartup ?
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14:32:47 <Vorpal> it seems to do absolutely nothing
14:32:53 * Vorpal tries it directly in the shell
14:33:04 <elliott> If this is the name of a readable file, the Python commands in that file are executed before the first prompt is displayed in interactive mode. The file is executed in the same namespace where interactive commands are executed so that objects defined or imported in it can be used without qualification in the interactive session. You can also change the prompts sys.ps1 and sys.ps2 in this file.
14:33:10 <elliott> Vorpal: set PYTHONSTARTUP=$HOME/.pythonstartup
14:33:27 <elliott> http://bpython-interpreter.org/screenshots/ is actually really cool
14:33:42 <elliott> Vorpal: http://geoffford.wordpress.com/2009/01/20/python-repl-enhancement/ also saves history to a file
14:34:01 <elliott> haha, "/etc/postoffice.cf" oldschool
14:34:18 <Vorpal> elliott, other feature I would like: reloading a file into the shell without a pain calling sys.whatever(). (alternatively you could just restart python but then you lose that scrollback)
14:35:00 <Vorpal> elliott, I seem to remember it managed to crash python for me
14:35:11 <elliott> also that only works if you import it as a module
14:35:22 <elliott> e.g. "from sys import * \n reload(sys)" won't change the in-scope definitions
14:35:32 <elliott> "from sys import * \n reload(sys) \n from sys import *" will though
14:35:39 <elliott> (but the old definitions will still be there, if any values got removed)
14:36:35 <Vorpal> elliott, the rlcompleter thing seems to do the job. :)
14:36:46 <elliott> Vorpal: you may want to nab the history-saving from that blog post too
14:36:51 <elliott> ok postoffice looks pretty cool
14:37:01 <Vorpal> elliott, is it an MTA?
14:37:01 <elliott> but still more configuration than i'd like
14:37:16 <Vorpal> elliott, also isn't .cf something to do with m4?
14:37:17 <elliott> Vorpal: well, it's an SMTP server/client
14:37:30 <Vorpal> at least I seem to remember that sendmail used .cf and also m4
14:37:37 <elliott> .cf is what sendmail used for configuration files, it's just that this guy was used to sendmail when he wrote postoffice
14:37:39 <elliott> so he stole the extension :)
14:37:42 <elliott> http://www.pell.portland.or.us/~orc/Code/postoffice/
14:38:03 <elliott> on the one hand, it looks like i'd have to do quite a bit of configuration. on the other hand, it looks like a lot less of a bitch to package than qmail!
14:38:31 <Vorpal> elliott, postfix is actually quite decent iirc. Qmail is better of course.
14:38:53 <elliott> Vorpal: I tried to use postfix once, and then I looked at the configuration files and my process tree.
14:39:13 <Vorpal> elliott, what about the process tree?
14:39:39 <elliott> Vorpal: postfix likes to spawn a new process to do every single thing it can think of, because that way it can reduce their privileges
14:39:50 <elliott> so you end up with 1,000,000 processes each with their own postfix-specific user :)
14:39:51 <Vorpal> elliott, you do realise qmail is kind of like that too?
14:39:58 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, but postfix takes it to THE XTREME
14:40:28 <Vorpal> elliott, and I seem to remember qmail having far more users
14:40:50 <Vorpal> elliott, I meant user account
14:40:58 <elliott> but does it use them all at once?
14:41:36 <Vorpal> elliott, well, I believe it tends to start stuff as it needs for many things, just a handful running all the time, supervised by daemontools
14:41:48 <elliott> All I want is to route user@domain to ~user by default, define a few aliases/wildcards e.g. *@domain -> elliott@domain, and also if ~user/.filtermail exists, execute it for every incoming message with stdin being the headers and message body, then stop processing further if it exits 0 (if it exits 1) keep going
14:42:04 <elliott> and just put it in a maildir
14:42:05 <Vorpal> elliott, hm I can ssh to a computer with postfix and check user count
14:42:13 <Vorpal> one user, called postfix
14:42:28 <Vorpal> maybe different distros package it differently?
14:42:38 <elliott> anyway it had a ton of processes
14:42:53 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway, if I packaged qemu, I'd have to replace the daemontools scripts with svmg scripts
14:42:55 <Vorpal> elliott, yes it does have 4 processes atm. But qmail is the account-insane one
14:43:03 <elliott> since svmg is almost a direct clone of daemontools/runit, that wouldn't be too hard, but still
14:43:06 <Vorpal> what has it got to do with it
14:43:23 <elliott> also, that /package and /command crap
14:43:39 <elliott> i think only daemontools is packaged like *that* though
14:44:36 <elliott> <elliott> All I want is to route user@domain to ~user by default, define a few aliases/wildcards e.g. *@domain -> elliott@domain, and also if ~user/.filtermail exists, execute it for every incoming message with stdin being the headers and message body, then stop processing further if it exits 0 (if it exits 1) keep going
14:44:36 <elliott> <elliott> and just put it in a maildir
14:44:40 <elliott> i'm almost tempted to write it ;)
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14:51:26 <elliott> ok why isn't locale support working in uClibc
14:53:03 <elliott> /* Silly foreigners disabling en_US locales */
14:56:04 <elliott> TODO: look into locales some more.
15:00:33 <elliott> -rw-r--r-- 1 elliott elliott 1.7M Dec 2 14:56 lib/libc.a
15:00:54 <elliott> Ha! It's bigger than glibc on my system. I wonder why.
15:01:33 <elliott> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 4.3M Oct 31 00:34 /usr/lib/libc.a
15:01:41 <elliott> And of course there are dlopen'd parts of glibc...
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15:04:56 <elliott> $ cat /proc/cpuinfo | awk '/^processor/ { print $3 }' | tail -1
15:05:01 <elliott> The ugliest way to get the number of cores possible.
15:05:06 <elliott> Wait, that actually needs +1.
15:05:13 <elliott> $ cat /proc/cpuinfo | awk '/^processor/ { print $3+1 }' | tail -1
15:05:40 -!- nopseudoidea has quit (Quit: Quitte).
15:06:35 <elliott> cat /proc/cpuinfo | grep processor | awk '{a++} END {print a}'
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15:14:39 <elliott> pikhq: ugh! i need to put two filenames on a line. rapidly losing hope :)
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15:19:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: every character but \0 is a valid component of a path
15:19:59 <elliott> googling "manifest file" is impossible thanks to java :(
15:29:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: In fact I'm 90% of the way to not even bothering with a manifest...
15:32:57 <Phantom_Hoover> http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/50260000/jpg/_50260127_searchingforporn,bbc.jpg
15:33:31 <elliott> That is now my favourite image.
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15:33:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh man, imagine the steps taken to create that image.
15:33:52 <elliott> Load up google, type in porn, get the camera out, tripod, zoom...
15:34:17 <elliott> "That angle's not the standard BBC Angle To Show Zoomed In Computer Screens At! (pretty sure they have one, just about every photo they do of that sort has an angle like that)"
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15:42:41 <oerjan> that's just bubble, er babble
15:43:03 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/50260000/jpg/_50260127_searchingforporn,bbc.jpg
15:47:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Wanna help me build THE GLASS CUBE?
15:48:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No! I'm getting the glass from the server, because you see, it involves 81 thousand pieces of sand.
15:48:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And while I *could* obtain that without difficulty, I would sooner kill myself than face that kind of tedium.
15:48:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Fun fact! When it goes underwater, I will have to use a bucket 128x128x64 = 1,048,576 times. This is because of the sea
15:48:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I do not like the sea
15:51:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Is chat broken or something?
15:52:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it is down
15:52:20 <elliott> Why do I have two pigs in my inventory.
15:52:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Finding a 128x128 block of it that's naturally smooth is an exercise in futility.
15:52:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: help help help i'm stuck
15:52:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And, I just won't.
15:53:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's okay for the very bottom floor to be a bit uneven.
15:53:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: This thing *is* going to have something like 20 floors.
15:53:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The last three floors or so will be lined with obsidian on the walls and floors/ceilings, anyway (apart from the final bedrock floor).
15:53:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: They are intended for the post-apocalyptic scenarios.
15:54:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: About what?
15:54:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, I have a 200-metre long warship under construction.
15:55:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: FUN FACT! My cube will be 2,097,152 m^3 (and thus blocks).
15:55:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I am going to rent out sections of it for free because let's face it, I can't even fill a 128x128 floor with my stuff.
15:55:57 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
15:57:06 <oerjan> !haskell 2097152**(1/3)
15:57:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, and I'm also going to need TONS OF LAVA.
15:57:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'd like the lighting layers to be just one tall, so I can't use a bunch of falls.
15:58:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So I'm going to need 128 * 128 * floors pieces of lava.
15:58:21 <elliott> Yeah, I'm gonna ask ineiros to put some readily-accessible lava near the spawnpoint. :p
16:04:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Taking a break already?
16:04:42 <oerjan> I love lava, red and hot
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16:13:49 <oerjan> alas, poor yorick, stepping into a minefield
16:14:30 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:15:16 <oerjan> http://www.maumae.net/yorick/doc/index.php
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16:17:30 <elliott> ais523: does C-INTERCAL work with -jN?
16:17:36 <elliott> ais523: its makefile, that is
16:38:11 * yorick stabs the Yorick namers
16:38:46 <yorick> they're making those annoying "AI" bots say "yorick: you are an interpreted programming language"
16:52:54 <elliott> ais523: hmm, can I have your esoteric opinion on something?
17:08:52 <elliott> (fn P (F X)) A = (fn P F A) (fn P X A).
17:12:11 <oerjan> doesn't work if X is of the form (fn ... ...) with A inside somewhere
17:13:01 <elliott> oerjan: don't quite see how that applies (although it certainly is failing in my tests :D
17:13:17 <elliott> also it seems to be non-lazy, Y foo is always diverging :p
17:13:20 <oerjan> ...you have no rule for that case
17:14:00 <elliott> oerjan: = (fn P ((fn Q) P)) A
17:14:07 <oerjan> and that's the case which requires all the alpha machinery
17:14:08 <elliott> oerjan: so F = fn Q, X = P
17:14:16 <elliott> but yeah fucking alpha conversion
17:14:20 <elliott> oerjan: i hereby invite you to fix it! ^_^
17:15:54 <elliott> oerjan: a cool thing about this though
17:17:56 <elliott> i'll try it with de bruijn indexes...
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17:21:11 <ais523> elliott: yep, it works with -jN for all positive integer N (that are small enough for make to parse correctly); and you can try to have my opinion, but I may not be paying attention
17:21:45 <elliott> ais523: alas, my problem was another entirely and your opinion is thus not useful
17:21:59 <elliott> ais523: but cool, let's see if i can get C-INTERCAL's latest release into Kitten 0.1
17:22:06 <elliott> ais523: is there a convenient list of dependencies?
17:22:45 <ais523> to what degree of granularity?
17:22:57 <ais523> hmm, the list for DOS is probably best, as none of the software you need is installed on DOS by default
17:24:45 <ais523> binutils, gcc, make, bash, diffutils, fileutils, findutils, awk, sed, shellutils, textutils; bison and flex are needed to recompile all the way from sources, texinfo and asciidoc (ugh esr) for the documentation
17:25:55 <ais523> most are only needed for the build system to work
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17:29:28 <elliott> ais523: asciidoc is nicer than texinfo, but why the fuck use two??
17:29:44 <elliott> ais523: also, I doubt the latest release requires AsciiDoc, only the git, right?
17:31:30 <elliott> ais523: in which case it doesn't matter
17:34:06 <elliott> "SonicBlue was sued over the commercial-skipping feature of ReplayTV on similar grounds. "Your contract when you get the show is you're going to watch the spots [advertisements]. … Any time you skip a commercial … you're actually stealing the programming," asserts Turner Broadcasting CEO Jamie Kellner. He admits that "there's a certain amount of tolerance" for going to the bathroom during commercials."
17:42:35 <ais523> elliott: esr converted the README to asciidoc
17:42:41 <ais523> with the result that it has random backslashes in now
17:42:54 <elliott> ais523: so, only a problem in git. right.
17:42:58 <ais523> as soon as you introduce escaping, everything goes wrong with that sort of format
17:43:42 <elliott> ais523: I'll probably be wholly unreasonable and maintain my own constantly-out-of-date C-INTERCAL that has all the non-stupid things merged back in. Should I call it something else? :p
17:44:28 <ais523> nah, just change what it stands for
17:44:38 <elliott> ais523: Anyway, so there are no library dependencies?
17:45:27 <ais523> no, apart from libc and the libraries it builds itself
17:45:30 <ais523> well, cfunge, but that's optional
17:47:09 <elliott> ais523: yeah i am *not* planning to build an iffi build :)
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17:50:29 <elliott> ais523: Does this look kosher to you?
17:50:47 <elliott> make install -j$(NPROCS) DESTDIR=$1
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17:55:52 <elliott> ais523: please tell me if I've misrepresented your compiler :P:
17:55:53 <elliott> C-INTERCAL is an implementation of Compiler Language With No
17:55:53 <elliott> Pronounceable Acronym, abbreviated INTERCAL; it acts as a deobfuscator
17:55:53 <elliott> by translating incomprehensible INTERCAL source code into vastly more
17:55:53 <elliott> readable machine code, going through a C compiler on the way. It
17:55:53 <elliott> supports all the common INTERCAL extensions, and has good
17:55:55 <elliott> compatibility with CLC-INTERCAL.
17:56:23 <elliott> (yes, yes, I stole the deobfuscator idea from the Debian packge description)
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18:06:10 <oerjan> it's not kosher, it has shrimps in it
18:07:19 <elliott> ais523: i would like to express my complaint with c-intercal's default installation directories
18:08:38 <elliott> ais523: specifically, /share/ick-0.29/ should in fact be called /lib/ick-0.29/ or /libexec/ick-0.29/
18:08:47 <elliott> ais523: also, you shouldn't put the version name in the dirs like that
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18:11:08 <elliott> ais523: ok i may be wrong about the share thing. but ick-0.29 is still wrong
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18:27:44 <elliott> ais523: I fixed your bug :)
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18:45:29 <Vorpal> elliott, ever used cython?
18:45:42 <elliott> Vorpal: i don't think i've *used* it but i know of it, yes
18:47:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I had a reversi-playing thing to write as an assignment, using alpha-beta pruning. Course uses Python. It was kind of slow. I optimised it as much as I could to be able to increase search depth from 3 ply to something greater. So 3 ply = about 19 seconds in pure python when playing against itself.
18:47:12 <Vorpal> elliott, with cython + some type annotation = 3 seconds
18:47:19 <Vorpal> python really really sucks
18:47:36 <Vorpal> very computation heavy though
18:48:04 <Vorpal> elliott, and well, lets see what adding further type annotation will do
18:50:14 <elliott> Vorpal: are you sure they'll accept Cython...
18:50:23 <elliott> Vorpal: also, Did You Try Psyco First
18:50:40 <Vorpal> elliott, no, but I'll mention it in the report to hope to make them realise how silly python is for this task :P
18:50:46 <Vorpal> elliott, also down to 1.7 seconds
18:50:58 <elliott> Vorpal: try psyco (need 32-bit python)
18:51:09 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah I would need to setup a 32-bit python somewhere
18:51:13 <Vorpal> probably needs a chroot
18:52:10 <elliott> $ /arch/x86/bin/python foo.py
18:52:12 <Vorpal> elliott, on what system?
18:52:13 <elliott> oh wait sorry you don't use kitten NEVER MIND
18:52:21 <Vorpal> elliott, I can't use it yet
18:52:35 <elliott> yeah you can you just have to implement all the bits that aren't done or that i haven't released!
18:53:48 <elliott> CFLAGS=-Os ./configure --prefix=
18:53:48 <elliott> make install -j$NPROCS ICK_SPECIFIC_SUBDIR=ick DESTDIR="$1"
18:53:53 <elliott> Vorpal: look what horrible things ick makes me do!
18:53:57 <elliott> yes indeed, I have to set a whole ONE variable!
18:54:11 <elliott> (and only then because I think it should be that way anyway :P)
18:54:16 <elliott> Also, yes, the lack of / after --prefix= is intentional.
18:54:22 <elliott> because stuff does $(prefix)/foo
18:56:47 <elliott> Vorpal: (ICK_SPECIFIC_SUBDIR usually includes the version, which is stupid because this way it goes into /share/ick and /include/ick like it should, not /share/ick-<version> and /include/ick-<version>)
18:57:06 <Vorpal> elliott, also down to 0.6 seconds now. cython has a nice mode where it renders to html and colour codes lines (white to yellow) to indicate how much conversion between python and C data types is going on
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18:58:12 <elliott> is nobody on minecraft? :(
18:58:33 <Vorpal> elliott, no time today
18:59:30 <elliott> I'm at a bit of a loss as to where to build the Cube...
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19:09:57 <Vorpal> elliott, actually I have to say cython is quite a nice language to use. On one hand when you need speed it isn't sluggish. On the other hand you can still use "high level" stuff when you need (such as non-painful dynamically growing lists)
19:15:20 <elliott> falses = cons false falses.
19:15:20 <elliott> bch1 (state (L : Ls) Rs) (left : Ps) = bch1 (state Ls (L : Rs)) Ps.
19:15:20 <elliott> bch1 (state Ls (R : Rs)) (moustache : Ps) = bch1 (state ((not R) : Ls) Rs) Ps.
19:15:20 <elliott> bch1 (state Ls (R : Rs)) ((loop LPs) : Ps) = if R then bch1 (bch1 (bch1 Ls Rs LPs)) ((loop LPs) : Ps) else (bch1 (state Ls (R : Rs)) Ps).
19:18:09 <elliott> it does not! but it is close
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19:29:06 <elliott> oerjan: ais523: could you delete [[Image:P''.png]]? thanks
19:33:34 <Slereah> Why are you programming in moustaches
19:34:32 <elliott> Slereah: it's what i call }
19:34:34 <elliott> i'm trying to do bitchanger
19:36:40 <oerjan> elliott: um you are still linking to that image from Prehistory. also that messes up the table of contents.
19:37:05 <elliott> Slereah: it's a term rewriter.
19:37:24 <elliott> oerjan: good point about ToC, i'll fix
19:49:14 <oerjan> also presumably i'm not admin because no one has made me one
19:49:39 * oerjan now off to discover new and impressive tautologies
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19:49:54 <ais523> elliott: you know your advice about using IE when Firefox wouldn't download executables?
19:50:15 <ais523> it seems that something had really really locked the system down, IE wouldn't download them either but at least it gave a vaguely useful error message
19:50:46 <elliott> ais523: I asked you a few things when you were gone; can I re-paste them?
19:50:46 <Sgeo> Hey, elliott didn't respond to anything I said in the log
19:50:49 <Sgeo> That's unusual
19:50:51 <ais523> in the end, I had to identify Microsoft's download domains and set them to trusted status in IE, and also set the security settings for trusted sites (which atm is /only/ three microsoft.com subdomains) to the lowest settings
19:51:00 <elliott> <elliott> ais523: Does this look kosher to you?
19:51:00 <elliott> <elliott> ./configure --prefix=
19:51:00 <elliott> <elliott> make install -j$(NPROCS) DESTDIR=$1
19:51:00 <elliott> <elliott> To build C-INTERCAL.
19:51:00 <elliott> <elliott> s/$(NPROCS)/$NPROCS/
19:51:03 <oerjan> ais523: like, the virus you wanted to download anti-virus for? >:D
19:51:04 <elliott> <elliott> ais523: please tell me if I've misrepresented your compiler :P:
19:51:05 <elliott> <elliott> C-INTERCAL is an implementation of Compiler Language With No
19:51:05 <elliott> <elliott> Pronounceable Acronym, abbreviated INTERCAL; it acts as a deobfuscator
19:51:07 <elliott> <elliott> by translating incomprehensible INTERCAL source code into vastly more
19:51:09 <elliott> <elliott> readable machine code, going through a C compiler on the way. It
19:51:11 <elliott> <elliott> supports all the common INTERCAL extensions, and has good
19:51:13 <elliott> <elliott> compatibility with CLC-INTERCAL.
19:51:15 <elliott> <elliott> (yes, yes, I stole the deobfuscator idea from the Debian packge description)
19:51:19 <elliott> <elliott> ais523: i would like to express my complaint with c-intercal's default installation directories
19:51:21 <elliott> <elliott> *express a complaint
19:51:22 <elliott> <elliott> ais523: specifically, /share/ick-0.29/ should in fact be called /lib/ick-0.29/ or /libexec/ick-0.29/
19:51:26 <elliott> <elliott> ais523: also, you shouldn't put the version name in the dirs like that
19:51:28 <elliott> <elliott> ais523: ok i may be wrong about the share thing. but ick-0.29 is still wrong
19:51:30 <elliott> <elliott> especially for include/
19:51:32 <elliott> (the last one I've managed to fix without patching the code)
19:51:34 <elliott> make install -j$NPROCS ICK_SPECIFIC_SUBDIR=ick DESTDIR="$1"
19:51:37 <ais523> elliott: the versioned dirs are a historical thing, which cause all sorts of issues
19:51:39 <elliott> ais523: and finally, the non-question that is "please delete http://esolangs.org/wiki/Image:P''.png" :P
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19:51:48 <ais523> there's a single line in the Makefile that can be changed to patch them back out
19:51:52 <ais523> also, what caused the image?
19:51:52 <elliott> ais523: you don't need to do that
19:51:55 <elliott> make install -j$NPROCS ICK_SPECIFIC_SUBDIR=ick DESTDIR="$1"
19:52:00 <elliott> ais523: I caused the image
19:52:06 <ais523> elliott: yep, but Debian prefer patching makefiles for some reason
19:52:09 <ais523> elliott: what were you trying to do?
19:52:11 <oerjan> elliott: i was just about to get ops now ;|
19:52:18 <elliott> oerjan: what, for flooding?
19:52:21 <elliott> ais523 gave me permission!
19:52:27 <elliott> ais523: I've uploaded it under another name
19:52:30 <elliott> (with the prime characters)
19:52:33 <elliott> which is also easier to embed
19:52:37 <elliott> [[Image:]] doesn't like quoets
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19:52:52 <elliott> ais523: anyway, are there any plans to set ICK_SPECIFIC_SUBDIR=ick by default in a future version?
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19:53:00 <ais523> elliott: no, not at the moment
19:53:10 <elliott> ais523: (btw, ick 0.-2.0.29 identifies as ick 0.29, but presumably that's intentional)
19:54:07 <ais523> elliott: indeed, alphas identify as the version they'll eventually be released as
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19:54:38 <elliott> ais523: I'll probably stick with 0.-2.0.29 for a while, since it doesn't depend on asciidoc >:)
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19:54:52 <oerjan> elliott: well it was damn hard to _notice_ the permission with all that flooding ;D
19:54:56 <elliott> ais523: btw, I should probably leave out the yacc build dependency and just use the prebuilt ones, right?
19:55:26 <ais523> oerjan: since when did I have permission to tell people to flood in this channel?
19:55:31 <ais523> also, are you an op? I keep losing track
19:55:36 <elliott> he has permission to do anything
19:55:44 <elliott> ais523: well, if the results would be identical whether I do or I don't, then I'll leave out the dependency to avoid wasting space
19:55:55 <ais523> also, Oozlybub and Murphy has the second best reason for its name ever, after INTERCAL
19:56:12 <ais523> elliott: they might not be if bison is upgraded to produce compatible but better output
19:56:21 <elliott> ais523: who said I'm using bison?
19:56:35 <elliott> ais523: heck, I'm not even using gcc :)
19:56:50 <ais523> I know SunOS lex has issues with lexer.l
19:56:50 <elliott> ais523: although I haven't yet tested C-INTERCAL with pcc
19:57:00 <ais523> because it uses hardcoded maximums, and they're too low
19:57:07 <elliott> ais523: here, I have a pcc/dietlibc toolchain here, let's see if it'll compile c-intercal
19:57:09 <ais523> you can increase the maximums with options, but seriously?
19:57:16 <ais523> elliott: I know it compiles cleanly with clang
19:57:37 <ais523> also, I had a go at getting it working with bcc (a 16-bit K&R C compiler), I can't remember whether I managed it or not
19:57:45 <elliott> ais523: by the way, I gunzipped the pax and then renamed it to .tar; am I a bad person?
19:57:51 <elliott> every package has to be /var/pkg/NAME/source.tar
19:57:55 <elliott> and I didn't feel like re-packing
19:59:29 <elliott> $ CC="$K/stage2/bin/diet -Os $K/stage2/bin/pcc" CFLAGS="" ./configure
20:00:02 <elliott> ais523: wow, that was a fast build
20:00:18 <elliott> slowest part was all that oilout stuff
20:00:28 <ais523> also, that's the slowest part of the build in gcc, too
20:00:28 <elliott> ICL999INO SKELETON IN MY CLOSET, WOE IS ME!
20:00:29 <elliott> CORRECT SOURCE AND RESUBNIT
20:00:42 <elliott> ais523: -rwxr-xr-x 1 elliott elliott 384K Dec 2 19:59 ick
20:00:44 <ais523> elliott: hmm, I hate skeleton errors
20:00:45 <elliott> ais523: (statically linked)
20:00:54 <ais523> what if you try installing it?
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20:01:03 <ais523> or try ./ick -u to see where it's looking
20:01:05 <elliott> yeah, I'll just do it again with another prefix
20:01:18 <elliott> yeah, it looked in the totally wrong places
20:01:40 <elliott> ais523: anyway, 384K isn't bad, methinks
20:01:53 <oerjan> with skeleton errors you don't even have the bare bones of a solution
20:01:59 <elliott> ais523: especially considering that the dietlibc printf functions are very half-assed because felix thinks people shouldn't use them :)
20:02:07 <elliott> (they add like 7-8K to the binary)
20:02:15 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/ick-0.29$ $K/cint/bin/ick
20:02:30 <elliott> ais523: now, uh oh, does it know to use the CC it was compiled with?
20:03:50 <elliott> (did you ever respond to my package description? misrepresenting C-INTERCAL is incredibly shameful!)
20:04:11 <ais523> elliott: I'm not sure; it will respect the CC environment variable
20:04:24 <ais523> and it doesn't look that misrepresented, except that I find INTERCAL easier to read than the machinecode it compiles to
20:04:33 <elliott> any flag to ask it what it thinks CC is? :p
20:04:43 <elliott> ais523: what good would an *accurate* description of an INTERCAL compiler be?
20:05:16 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:07:10 <elliott> -rwxr-xr-x 1 elliott elliott 104K Dec 2 20:06 pi
20:07:41 <elliott> ais523: does it respect CFLAGS?
20:09:14 <ais523> elliott: I can't remember
20:09:42 <ais523> elliott: if you use -c, the command to compile it will be dumped in the Emacs local variables header in the output
20:10:19 <ais523> if you use -g, it doesn't optimise
20:10:27 <ais523> if you use -F, it goes up to -O3
20:10:48 <elliott> ais523: hmm... would you accept a patch that (1) modularised libick, so that each relevant block of code goes in its own .o, so that statically-linked INTERCAL program are smaller; (2) made it so that ick generates C programs that do not call printf and friends, directly or indirectly (instead using either fwrite or write, depending on what you'll let me get away with :)), and (3) respects CFLAGS?
20:10:55 <elliott> I could split those up, but I'm very lazy.
20:11:21 <elliott> ais523: the end result would be much smaller statically-linked programs, basically (and leaner dynamically-linked programs too, although you wouldn't really notice it)
20:11:30 <elliott> and also perhaps slightly faster, since printf is quite big
20:13:21 <ais523> elliott: splitting it up would help; I'd almost certainly accept (3), (2) and (1) are more contentious
20:13:37 <ais523> what do we use printf for in the generated C at the moment anyway?
20:13:47 <elliott> ais523: I have no idea; probably error reporting or something silly like that.
20:14:08 <elliott> ais523: I don't see why (1) should be contentious; it *only* affects libick.a, not any shared version (are there any?)
20:14:13 <ais523> what about replacing it with puts and putchar
20:14:34 <elliott> ais523: hmm... well, I wouldn't bother writing such a patch
20:14:55 <elliott> ais523: really, the improvements are: going from printf -> anything else; and going from stdio -> write(2)/read(2)
20:14:55 <ais523> elliott: changing which files exist require a) working out how they fit in with all the various permutations of build systems, b) working out which go in which version of libick.a, c) thinking up witty names for them
20:15:04 <elliott> both have a rather dramatic impact
20:15:10 <ais523> elliott: do you not have a libc that lets you set stdio as a thin wrapper?
20:15:18 <elliott> ais523: a thin wrapper? haha
20:15:24 <ais523> write(2) and read(2) aren't portable, they don't exist on Windows
20:15:32 <elliott> ais523: with the amount of stuff stdio is required to do, you can't make a thin wrapper
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20:15:46 <elliott> ais523: also, you use autoconf right?
20:15:52 <elliott> easy enough to condition on read/write being present
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20:17:00 <elliott> ais523: I mean, 116K is really rather dismal, considering that useful dietlibc-based programs can be on the order of 7K.
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20:17:14 <elliott> I'd say that these changes together could lead to, say, a 30K pi, as a first estimate.
20:18:43 <pikhq> elliott: I like how you don't have /usr.
20:19:02 <elliott> pikhq: I like that too! It's yet another reason for Vorpal to say he'll never use it ever.
20:19:10 <elliott> And lord knows I don't have nearly enough of those.
20:20:09 <elliott> pikhq: Maybe I'll be all old-school Unix and make /usr the home directory. :)
20:20:48 <elliott> pikhq: Fun fact: /usr/bin originates from the fact there was, in research unix 4 or 5 or something, a user/group named bin, whose home directory -- /usr/bin -- had a bunch of tools.
20:20:53 <elliott> pikhq: I have seen this personally on an emulator.
20:22:03 <elliott> pikhq: Then some luser decided that usr didn't mean usr because there was a single directory in there with binaries, and broke up everything.
20:22:22 <elliott> And now, kids, even today, it is used to justify silly partitioning schemes where nothing has any leg room.
20:22:49 <elliott> ais523: "Berkeley Yacc (byacc) is generally conceded to be the best yacc variant available. In contrast to bison, it is written to avoid dependencies upon a particular compiler."
20:22:56 <elliott> ais523: challenge: write a less objectively-agreed-upon statement than that
20:22:58 <elliott> well, than the first sentence
20:23:12 <Vorpal> wtf: running this reversi-algorithm against itself gave a pretty pattern looking like an arrow. A symmetrical one in colours
20:23:14 <elliott> "The Holocaust is generally conceded to have been a wonderful event full of puppies and unicorns."
20:23:24 * Vorpal goes to take a screenshot
20:23:30 <elliott> (not insulting byacc, just loling at the sentence)
20:24:07 <elliott> ais523: btw, according to my understanding of BSD/MIT/GPL, I have to include the license, with copyright notice, on every system that installs the package. is this true?
20:24:11 <pikhq> elliott: "Berkeley Yacc (byacc) is the One True Yacc."
20:24:33 <elliott> pikhq: "This is not the yacc you are looking for."
20:24:50 <elliott> pikhq: "OS/2 is widely regarded to be the best and most widely-used server operating system."
20:24:52 <oerjan> berkeley yacc is best yacc
20:25:10 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:25:17 <pikhq> Just like North Korea is best Korea.
20:25:36 <elliott> pikhq: That is simply a factual statement.
20:25:40 <oerjan> THANK YOU, COMRADE OBVIOUS
20:26:04 <elliott> `addquote <oerjan> berkeley yacc is best yacc <pikhq> Just like North Korea is best Korea. <oerjan> THANK YOU, COMRADE OBVIOUS
20:26:20 <oerjan> alas, hackego just pinged out
20:26:36 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, I hear South... no, wait, they have professional StarCraft players.
20:26:45 <pikhq> oerjan: You're welcome, Comrade.
20:26:47 <elliott> oerjan: hackego totally needs to read the clog logs when it reconnects and perform all the actions there
20:26:50 <Vorpal> elliott, very strange result: http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/tmp/reversi-ab_prune_against_self.png
20:26:51 <elliott> (after quoting them, naturally)
20:27:01 <elliott> Vorpal: <Vorpal> wtf: running this reversi-algorithm against itself gave a pretty pattern looking like an arrow. A symmetrical one in colours
20:27:05 <elliott> Vorpal: "in colours" made me think "colourful"
20:27:07 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Televised and popular, no less.
20:27:13 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: They even make product endorsements.
20:27:24 <Vorpal> elliott, how would that work?
20:27:29 <elliott> Vorpal: like N-colour reversi!
20:27:33 <Vorpal> elliott, that would be nice
20:27:41 <Vorpal> elliott, but anyway, the pattern is strange
20:27:45 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, I am tempted to join the DPRK Appreciation Society.
20:28:09 <elliott> [[The My World Tour is an upcoming concert tour by Justin Bieber. It is his first official headlining tour, and is promoted by AEG Live, and Live Nation. The tour is anticipated to have multiple legs, and the supporting acts for the first will be Sean Kingston and Jessica Jarrell. Pop girl group The Stunners will also serve as an opening act for the first twenty dates. The tour is set to support his first release, My World, and its follow-up, My
20:28:10 <elliott> World 2.0. Who wants Justin the most? Decide now...
20:28:10 <elliott> CONTEST IS CLOSED. THE WINNER IS NORTH KOREA WITH 659141 VOTES]]
20:28:15 <elliott> I really hope he goes to North Korea.
20:28:17 <pikhq> "Democratic People's Republic of Korea" is such a mistranslation.
20:28:30 <elliott> pikhq: But the BEST mistranslation!
20:28:31 <pikhq> "Democratic People's Republic of Choson".
20:28:53 <elliott> pikhq: Oppressed Starver's Republic of Korea doesn't have the same ring to it.
20:29:16 <pikhq> elliott: They actually call the country Choson. For... No reason at all.
20:30:09 <elliott> oh, that poll isn't official
20:30:45 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseon_Dynasty
20:31:28 <pikhq> oerjan: Okay, okay, so it has historical relevance.
20:31:44 <pikhq> But still: the North and South can't even agree on what to call the country.
20:32:08 <pikhq> The ROK is Han, DPRK is Choson...
20:32:47 * oerjan thought Han referred to ethnic chinese
20:32:49 <elliott> pikhq: I went to put #kitten on freenode but it's REGISTERED so I'm going to make it on OFTC^WBest Free Software Network.
20:36:06 <Ilari> Heh... There's apparently second cause of IPv6 making things "slow" besides the "computer thinks it has IPv6 but doesn't"-problem: IPv6 routing is a lot more unstable than IPv4 routing...
20:37:58 <elliott> ais523: so can I get the green-light to use write(2)/read(2) if they're present?
20:41:57 <pikhq> Ilari: Probably something to do with *significantly* fewer routers being IPv6.
20:42:00 <elliott> pikhq is just not cool enough for OFTC.
20:45:15 <Ilari> Or actually it is "computer doesn't have a route to destination via IPv6" problem.
20:45:37 <elliott> OFTC once declared war on pikhq.
20:47:31 * pikhq declares pikhq on war
20:48:07 <elliott> pikhq: OFTC! #KITTEN! SQUARENESS DONATED TO ALL NOT PRESENT!
20:48:32 <Ilari> Or the great IPv6 routing split...
20:51:45 <Ilari> Some IPv6 upstreams have seriously incomplete routing table...
20:53:05 -!- Gregor has joined.
20:53:10 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Guest24183.
20:53:18 <Ilari> Fun issues ensue if are trying to reach host that is unroutable over IPv6 but reachable over IPv4.
20:53:39 -!- Guest24183 has changed nick to Gregor.
20:54:16 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_(trilobite)
20:55:04 <oerjan> Gregor: yon bots are dead
20:55:20 -!- wareya_ has joined.
20:57:11 <Gregor> oerjan: My friggin' everything was dead, patience :P
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20:59:00 <elliott> Gregor: PRGMR RELIABLE UPTIME
21:04:29 <pikhq> NASA discovers life form that uses arsenic instead of phosphorous.
21:04:54 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:05:39 <pikhq> Yes, they have completely different nucleic acids.
21:06:26 -!- fizzie has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
21:08:28 <Ilari> Actually, apparetly only the PO4 linking groups have been replaced by AsO4 groups...
21:10:39 <pikhq> That's still pretty astounding.
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21:29:33 <Phantom_Hoover> How do I get this bloody computer to tell me my CPU model?
21:32:08 <Phantom_Hoover> O god, tell me in thine infinite wisdom the model of mine unworthy CPU.
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22:03:46 <pikhq> x264 is officially ridiculous.
22:03:52 <pikhq> http://x264.nl/developers/Dark_Shikari/Flash/UltraLowBitrateAnime.mp4 67 kbps encode.
22:04:02 <pikhq> I did not omit a digit there.
22:04:09 <pikhq> Sixty-seven kilobits per second.
22:08:13 <pikhq> And Dark Shikari claims he should redo that encode, because x264 has gotten better since.
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22:34:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Actually, I'm just bored and MC without anyone else there is boring.
22:34:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what? don't insult me. I had other stuff to to today. I haven't been on
22:35:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and insulting me at the same time
22:35:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Since he went on about you being addicted whenever the server died and you asked ineiros why.
22:35:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, indeed :P
22:35:56 <Vorpal> he is way more addicted than me
22:36:20 <elliott> I don't actually play often at all.
22:36:22 <Vorpal> I just hated being interrupted in a task.
22:36:32 <elliott> In fact I've done nothing in days.
22:36:35 <Vorpal> elliott, you been on doing other stuff though
22:36:42 <Vorpal> elliott, I saw you jumping that water fall
22:36:56 <elliott> Which waterfall? The one you made yesterday?
22:37:02 <Vorpal> elliott, the one I made yes
22:37:15 <elliott> You did that and *also* made it, so that does not demonstrate that I am "way more" addicted in any way.
22:37:19 <elliott> It just demonstrates that I do in fact play it.
22:37:40 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed but you have been complaining about no one being on today
22:37:48 <Vorpal> elliott, I almost never complained about the place being empty
22:38:01 <elliott> Because I've been rather bored today. Also I think I've complained twice.
22:38:16 <Vorpal> okay, I haven't counted
22:38:21 <elliott> 10:58:12 <elliott> is nobody on minecraft? :(
22:38:24 <elliott> <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: MC
22:38:36 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway then you don't have to chat with people, instead you can get on building stuff!
22:38:39 <elliott> ok, I also bugged Phantom_Hoover about it in #kitten :P
22:38:49 <elliott> Vorpal: The only thing I want to build is the Cube and that needs the Server.
22:39:05 <Vorpal> elliott, you could locate an area, and start marking out the boundaries
22:39:21 <Vorpal> elliott, stuff like that just need a handful of dirt or cobblestone blocks
22:39:22 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, you bugged me because you couldn't deal with the fact that a photo of a kitten is not in fact a very good logo.
22:39:38 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, photos are almost never good logos
22:39:49 <elliott> Vorpal: Not only was it a kitten, it was *on a computer*.
22:39:57 <Vorpal> logos need to be more... symbolic, line art
22:40:00 <elliott> Are you suggesting that there is something better than a kitten on a computer for ANY PURPOSE WHATSOEVER?
22:40:07 <Vorpal> elliott, it would work if it was lineart of a kitten on a computer
22:40:12 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, you could locate an area, and start marking out the boundaries
22:40:12 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, stuff like that just need a handful of dirt or cobblestone blocks
22:40:17 <elliott> i'm fairly sure I need to make my own sea.
22:40:20 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, but it was a photo! And a jpeg! With a detailed and necessary background!
22:40:35 <pikhq> http://filebin.ca/tvzvtn/sintel_trailer-240-pass3.mkv
22:40:41 <pikhq> It's a 768k video.
22:40:44 <pikhq> And it doesn't look bad.
22:40:50 <pikhq> (aside from being 240p)
22:40:54 <Vorpal> elliott, I suggest to the east because it will be closer to spawn than any other suitably large area
22:41:12 <Vorpal> elliott, and minecarts will be close. Skyway will need a bit more
22:41:15 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't care about proximity to spawn, only civilisation.
22:41:23 <elliott> Also Server said that he probably doesn't want it within 500 metres of spawn.
22:41:26 <Vorpal> elliott, well, it is close to civilisation too
22:41:39 <Vorpal> elliott, north-west then?
22:41:53 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, if that isn't related with the Society for the Advancement of Blenders I will be sorely disappointed.
22:41:57 <elliott> Vorpal: Perhaps. Or I could just flood a large area on the path of the skyway from Vorpal to Hoover.
22:42:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Blender as in the 3D tool.
22:42:11 <Vorpal> elliott, that would work too
22:42:19 <elliott> Vorpal: I'd also need TNT to get rid of some of the bigger mountains, probably.
22:42:35 <Vorpal> elliott, as long as it is out of sight from my extruding glass room
22:42:47 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, how many opinions do you have about multimedia encoding?
22:42:57 <Vorpal> elliott, or if visible on far, at least some distance away
22:42:59 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Many!
22:43:09 <elliott> Vorpal: If it isn't, that's not my fault; you don't own a huge radius around your mountain.
22:43:12 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Rule #1: x264 is the best. Period.
22:43:14 <elliott> Anyway, it's made out of glass, dammit, it's transparent.
22:43:19 <Vorpal> elliott, I want a nature view, not looking up the side of an industrial building :P
22:43:41 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah... you do realise this thing is gonna be darn pretty, right?
22:43:50 <elliott> It's ENTIRELY MADE OUT OF GLASS. With nice LAVA making it shine.
22:43:53 <Vorpal> elliott, and yes sure but not completely, anyway that valley below the skyway entrance I have built stuff like a lava fall in
22:43:59 <Vorpal> elliott, sure it is, but so is the nature
22:44:02 <elliott> Well I'm not building /there/.
22:44:10 <elliott> Probably 1/3 of the way to Hoover or whatever.
22:44:16 <Vorpal> elliott, that should be fine
22:44:51 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It is literally the best encoder. To match its quality with an encoder for any *other* compression scheme, you need to *at least double* the bit rate.
22:45:16 <elliott> pikhq: Such a shame that H.264 is so proprietary.
22:45:43 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: And for h.264, it is similar in quality but slightly higher than the highest-quality proprietary encoder, and it beats all the others about as badly as it beats, say, MPEG-2 encoders.
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22:46:08 <pikhq> elliott: It is a shame, indeed.
22:46:58 <Vorpal> elliott, you see that kind of rectangular mountain on http://a322.org/mc/topo-2010-11-29.png between me and PH? Just above the skyway. Quite close to my place. There is a blue area below it (lake). Beyond that mountain is quite flat. Why not there (and save the mountain as it is, it is pretty)
22:47:09 <Vorpal> elliott, it seems to be a solution that fits everyone
22:47:32 <elliott> <pikhq> http://x264.nl/developers/Dark_Shikari/Flash/UltraLowBitrateAnime.mp4 67 kbps encode.
22:47:43 <elliott> w.t.f. pikhq i was expecting lameish quality
22:47:47 <pikhq> elliott: And that's an *old* demonstration.
22:47:58 <elliott> Vorpal: Maybe. I'll see about it.
22:48:13 <elliott> Vorpal: I would prefer to use an existing sea. (Are there any known seas that are 128x128 big?)
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22:48:29 <elliott> In fact, how far does Far see?
22:49:05 <pikhq> elliott: If you reduce the resolution to about what Youtube uses for its lowest-quality videos, but keep the bit rate, you end up having an almost transparent encode.
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22:49:13 <pikhq> See my filebin post.
22:49:37 <elliott> pikhq: Hmm... I just had a stupid thought that maybe might sorta work.
22:50:05 <Vorpal> <elliott> In fact, how far does Far see? <-- not sure, pretty far
22:50:10 <elliott> pikhq: Have lossy x264 encoding. For each frame, store a compressed -- PNG or whatever -- image diff of the lossy encoding to the lossless (i.e. lossless - lossy or whatever)
22:50:28 <Vorpal> elliott, more than that I think
22:50:37 <Vorpal> elliott, I can see from me to fizzie
22:50:44 <Vorpal> elliott, a bit more than that
22:50:45 <pikhq> I'm not sure that would be an *astounding* lossless compression scheme, but it would certainly work decently.
22:50:47 <elliott> That's not 128, I don't think.
22:51:00 <elliott> pikhq: Would it beat your zero-quantisation encodes?
22:51:10 <fizzie> Far sees a bit less than 200 blocks, but I'd say it's over 128.
22:51:20 <elliott> pikhq: I can't imagine the diffs being *too* big, even on a relatively low bitrate...
22:51:24 <fizzie> You can almost see the other end of PH's ship from one end.
22:51:28 <Vorpal> elliott, I'll measure on the map
22:51:31 <pikhq> elliott: I don't *think* so.
22:51:32 <elliott> pikhq: Then again, it is every single frame...
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22:51:51 <pikhq> elliott: Though it would probably beat everything not x264 anyways. :P
22:52:00 <elliott> "You Must Learn JavaScript" ;; no I mustn't, you webfag.
22:52:23 <elliott> "It’s my belief that every single programmer should learn JavaScript." ;; one day you will discover that people write programs that don't get shown in Safari
22:52:43 <elliott> "Knowing JavaScript well is probably one of the most challenging and rewarding things you can do as a programmer."
22:52:48 <elliott> how is learning javascript challenging at all
22:52:50 <Vorpal> elliott, about 190 I'd say
22:53:20 <Vorpal> it is approx, I measured on map
22:53:31 <elliott> Yeah, but there's no power of two near 192 other than... 192.
22:53:46 <elliott> Yeah, but there's no power of two near 190 other than... 192.
22:53:55 <fizzie> 192 is not a power of two either, but still.
22:54:14 <Vorpal> elliott, and I believe it might be inexact. As in: a chunk is either visible or not
22:54:29 <Vorpal> the distance I measured was diagonal
22:54:33 <Vorpal> so that would be relevant
22:55:14 <fizzie> elliott: As for existing seas, a 128x128 block would fit to the big sea that's to east of spawn (not immediately east, but further; it starts about as far from spawn than Mt. Vorpal is, euclidinially speaking.
22:55:23 <pikhq> elliott: BTW: Youtube's video bitrates start at 250kbps and go up from there.
22:55:51 <Vorpal> elliott, I can see a distance that is at least 194 (near upper door entrance to end of huge stairs
22:55:57 <elliott> pikhq: Is it just me, or do YouTube videos load painfully slowly?
22:55:59 <Vorpal> elliott, which indicates it is probably per chunk
22:56:02 <pikhq> That's 250kbps for the 240p videos they had at the very start of the site.
22:56:20 <elliott> fizzie: Yeah, but Server doesn't really want it within 500 blocks of spawn.
22:56:30 <elliott> fizzie: So I'm better off starting at civilisation and going from there.
22:56:45 <Vorpal> elliott, it would be 300 blocks away
22:56:49 <fizzie> Well, you could fit two 128x128 blocks in the big seas to the west, but those are pretty far.
22:56:50 <Vorpal> definitely not visible from spawn
22:57:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, not in one of them any more
22:57:27 <elliott> fizzie: I do not plan to make *two* 128x128x128 cubes. :p
22:57:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, presumably you mean the one with a reed-lined shore?
22:58:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, near that "easter egg"?
22:58:03 <fizzie> No, I meant the other one.
22:58:20 <fizzie> To north of the reed-lined-shore one.
22:58:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah because I built a free-standing waterfall over ther
22:58:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, tried it with a boat?
22:58:49 <fizzie> Yes. (I borrowed your boat.)
22:59:59 <elliott> fizzie: Are *you* too boring to Minecraft today, too?
23:00:21 <fizzie> Yes, I'm just about to go to sleep, actually.
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23:06:51 <Vorpal> elliott, I'll make a map with some suggestions for possible placements within existing oceans
23:06:54 <pikhq> Also fun: the source video, at 480p lossless x264, hits DVD target bitrates...
23:08:21 <fizzie> Incidentally, I head-estimated some numbers earlier. If you intend to empty 128x128x16 (a very low-end estimate assuming depth of 16) blocks of water one by one, and assuming one operation per second (I'm not sure what sort of overall throughput you'd get, but it's in the ballpark) that's take 262144 seconds = about 72 solid hours.
23:09:14 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, yes; I'm trying to think of *other* ways to drain the water other than doing it block-by-block.
23:09:30 <elliott> fizzie: Suggestions welcome :P
23:12:03 <elliott> fizzie's silence is not reassuring.
23:12:21 <fizzie> I've read something about safely removing TNT by detonating it underwater, so I'd guess no.
23:12:28 <Vorpal> elliott, TNT still generate shockwave in water. But it does not destroy blocks
23:12:33 <Vorpal> this is used to build TNT cannons
23:13:13 <fizzie> The wiki-page says "TNT can clear water and lava. -- However, if the TNT falls in water, the explosion will not destroy any blocks at all but still cause damage." -- which is quite unclear.
23:13:20 <fizzie> Also, smelting 128*128*16 (cube walls and ten interior levels, again a rather low estimate) blocks of sand into glass will take 728 hours (30 days). (And burn 32768 blocks of coal, or 2622 buckets of lava.)
23:13:54 <elliott> fizzie: Um, I was going to get the sand delivered to me in glass form.
23:14:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about placing the blocks assuming he had the glass?
23:14:20 <elliott> I think skipping the many-months-long process of gathering 81 thousand blocks of sand and smelting them all, which is trivially feasible, just really boring, is acceptable.
23:15:00 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, it's the same amount of blocks than in the water estimate earlier, so assuming block/second throughput, another 72 hours.
23:15:23 <Vorpal> elliott, fizzie: http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/tmp/placement.png
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23:15:55 <Vorpal> elliott, alt 3 which would be best is within 500 blocks
23:15:55 <elliott> fizzie: Anyway, I'd actually have to empty 128*128*64 blocks of water.
23:16:13 <elliott> I think 500 blocks was... not entirely serious.
23:16:14 <Vorpal> elliott, no. Since water only goes down to about 50
23:16:28 <elliott> Well, okay, but definitely not 16.
23:16:36 <elliott> fizzie: Anyway I'd build the actual levels over a long period of time.
23:16:39 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed. that is 14
23:16:54 <fizzie> The seas aren't very deep.
23:17:15 <Vorpal> indeed. And going down to 50 is rare. 52-53 is much more common
23:17:23 <Vorpal> with a few smaller pits of 50 or so
23:17:28 <fizzie> Still, you'd need to empty up that much space in general, so there.
23:17:41 <Vorpal> and you only get 52 out near the middle
23:17:49 <elliott> Anyway, I never said it'd be easy. :p
23:17:57 <Vorpal> elliott, still you need to mine a shitload of stuff below the sea
23:18:14 <elliott> Vorpal: Or just use TNT...
23:18:21 <fizzie> If you can conjure up sand/grovel, I think the fastest way of getting rid of water is to just keep placing those blocks to fill it all up (they fall, so you can do a whole column without moving), then shovel/blow-up them away.
23:18:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, you could do the torch trick
23:18:51 <elliott> fizzie: Problem is, I'd have to have walls in place already... meaning TNT would be unwise.
23:19:05 <fizzie> You could TNT in the middle, though.
23:19:17 <Vorpal> still a shitload of TNT to do it
23:19:20 <fizzie> And anyway, shovels are fast, faster than "take a bucket, dump it down".
23:19:22 <Vorpal> not sure I'd trust you with that
23:19:30 <Vorpal> (if I was that admin that is)
23:19:46 <elliott> fizzie: I would do 9 buckets at a time, obviously.
23:19:59 <Vorpal> elliott, how would 9 buckets help?
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23:20:07 <Vorpal> elliott, elliott you can just empty it into another source
23:20:11 <elliott> Vorpal: Larger period of monotony.
23:20:14 <Vorpal> elliott, next to the one you are removing
23:20:19 <Vorpal> elliott, which is probably faster
23:20:22 <elliott> Oh, you can? Compress two sources?
23:20:41 <Vorpal> elliott, it's minecraft, what did you expect?
23:20:52 <elliott> fizzie: Anyway, conjuring up sand is not the issue here, as I've established. :p
23:21:21 <elliott> Anyway, those who help construct it get bigger free-rented spaces.
23:21:26 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway since you don't plan water on top of the thing, getting rid of currents at the end should be ni issues
23:22:00 <Vorpal> elliott, I can provide a shitload of cobblestone to help you with it certainly. For scaffolding and such
23:22:06 <Vorpal> also a shitload of dirt
23:22:27 <elliott> Vorpal: Work is more valuable than materials. :p
23:22:27 <Vorpal> elliott, I have at least one large chest full of cobble + several partly filled ones
23:22:43 <Vorpal> elliott, dirt: almost one filled
23:22:47 <fizzie> Incidentally, in order to give you 128*128*16 blocks of time, ineiros will have to repeat the /give command 4096 times, and it'd be 152 inventories worth. So I'd think you'd perhaps better wait until hMod time before the building in order for not to have to ask for glass all the time.
23:22:55 <elliott> fizzie: He said he was going to automate it.
23:23:09 <elliott> fizzie: He *can* just create a file with a huge number of commands, you know, and paste it in.
23:23:19 <Vorpal> elliott, still you can decide on a place and put out markers there
23:23:24 <Vorpal> elliott, that you can do today
23:23:32 <Vorpal> elliott, so which of those places do you think is best?
23:23:35 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm not going to be awake for long enough to research all the places today.
23:23:47 <fizzie> Yes, but you can't really get more than one inventory full of glass at a time, the rest will probably go and disappear before you have time to get them.
23:23:49 <Vorpal> elliott, you saw the map I linked?
23:24:10 <Vorpal> elliott, it is basically one of them if you don't want to be WAAY off from civilisation or have to build your own sea
23:24:18 <Vorpal> and building your own sea is probably more work
23:24:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, but more impressive. :p
23:24:50 <elliott> Vorpal: (And I wouldn't have to empty anything, if I built the underwater bit of the cube first.
23:24:51 <Vorpal> elliott, you know that the water-source duplication thing only happens on a flat surface right?
23:24:56 <Vorpal> elliott, up to altitude 1
23:25:02 <fizzie> You could've crop-to-selection'd the map a bit. :p
23:25:10 <Vorpal> you will have to build layer by layer down
23:25:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, there are other sites further away
23:25:22 <elliott> Vorpal: But I can get walls in before that.
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23:25:29 <Vorpal> elliott, so I think emptying it will be less work
23:25:37 <elliott> Vorpal: What I really need to do is get a bitmap image 128x128, side view, zoom in, and start planning.
23:25:38 <Vorpal> elliott, unless you want like a 2x wide channel around it
23:25:48 <elliott> I need to figure out how many floors there'll be, how to make sure level 0 has a floor there, etc.
23:25:49 <Vorpal> elliott, besides it won't look natural without a LOT of work
23:26:04 <elliott> I also need to do experiments to determine how often I need lava lighting.
23:26:11 <Vorpal> elliott, gimp: create new image, size 128x128
23:26:14 <elliott> Hopefully only once every two floors, where a floor is about 5 blocks high.
23:26:23 <elliott> I just hope that's enough.
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23:26:40 <elliott> (Since I want lighting to seem even throughout the whole building, even a 1/3rd diminishing would probably be bad)
23:26:42 <Vorpal> elliott, you will certainly get lighting from below
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23:27:07 <elliott> I know there's a formula or whatever but experimenting is easier.
23:27:11 <Vorpal> elliott, also you *will* misplace blocks sometimes when building it
23:27:13 <elliott> (Ha, how practical of me.)
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23:27:23 <fizzie> You can experiment with torches; that's only one level less bright than lava.
23:27:23 <Vorpal> elliott, which means you might need a few hundred blocks more
23:27:41 <Vorpal> since they will be destroyed when you break them
23:28:02 <elliott> Vorpal: And I also need more glass for *other* things, which is why I'm just going to ask for 131,072 pieces of glass, because that's a nice round number.
23:28:17 <Vorpal> elliott, the other things being?
23:28:21 <Vorpal> elliott, interior walls?
23:28:35 <elliott> Vorpal: I need to build an underground tunnel to one of the first underground floors (the entrance; entering at ground level is fugly. So there'll just be a hole down to a glass, underwater tunnel connected to the cube.)
23:28:43 <Vorpal> elliott, you realise that if you rent out space you need something that isn't glass to put things on
23:28:50 <elliott> And also the fact that I need two floors for some floors to sandwich the lava.
23:28:58 <Vorpal> elliott, and minecart tracks I believe won't go on glass
23:28:59 <elliott> Vorpal: Probably cloth, since it's nice and white.
23:29:16 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah, well, don't let the lava out. :P
23:29:32 <elliott> Vorpal: And the bottom three levels will be completely obsidian-plated and lit with torches.
23:29:32 <Vorpal> elliott, you know those jumping embers from lava
23:29:49 <Vorpal> elliott, they don't hurt players but they *can* set fire to burnable blocks and burnable items
23:30:00 <fizzie> But you can't sensibly *get* 131072 blocks of glass at one time; even if ineiros generates that much by pasting in /give's, after your inventory is full, they'll just end up floating in the air where you were and disappear in 5-10 minutes. So you need some sort of glass-getting automation, and then you can just request as much as you actually need in sensibly-sized batches.
23:30:09 <elliott> Vorpal: You do realise the lava has glass on either side?
23:30:11 <Vorpal> elliott, not sure if they will jump through glass
23:30:18 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, considering how they are coded in general
23:30:25 <elliott> fizzie: I'm going to make like 50 large chests, durr. :P
23:30:28 <Vorpal> elliott, I have seen them jump through stone
23:30:41 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, I've never been hurt inside the Glass Room of Hoover's.
23:30:53 <elliott> never seen any embers at all
23:31:10 <Vorpal> I believe they jump up
23:31:23 <Vorpal> elliott, requesting in batches is probably better since that way you don't need to load from the chest
23:31:39 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, to hit anything other than glass, they'd have to get through glass *and* whatever floor is being used in that part.
23:31:51 <elliott> Also, yeah, I probably will. But a batch should fill 3 large chests are so.
23:32:31 <Vorpal> elliott, you might want to build a cobblestone 130x130 container and empty the water in it. Maybe
23:32:38 <Vorpal> then build the thing inside
23:32:41 <Vorpal> then remove the cobble
23:33:12 <Vorpal> elliott, also it needs a boatlevator.
23:33:17 <Vorpal> elliott, do you know how far mine goes?
23:33:18 <elliott> Yeah, you can build that. :p
23:33:29 <elliott> Down near bedrock, yes. I successfully rode it today.
23:33:35 <elliott> I don't see how it'd work with 20 or so stops, though.
23:33:45 <Vorpal> elliott, 5 above bedrock to 15 or so below max alt
23:33:46 <elliott> Vorpal: At least I'll be able to proudly say that without the laws of physics changing, nobody will ever make a bigger cube than this.
23:33:55 <Vorpal> elliott, hm stops would be an issue yeah
23:34:06 <Vorpal> elliott, but maybe one to get to ground floor and then one to get to near max
23:34:20 <Vorpal> elliott, remember it needs like 7 blocks at the top due to jumping up quite a bit
23:34:29 <elliott> Vorpal: I was just going to use regular stairs; I mean, it wouldn't be that big a deal.
23:34:38 <elliott> Although stairs are ugley.
23:35:08 <Vorpal> elliott, that would take forever to go up
23:35:20 <elliott> Vorpal: Not *really*; have you ever walked up the bedrock-to-max Stairs?
23:35:28 <elliott> It only takes a minute or two, and that's for all the way.
23:35:40 <Vorpal> elliott, and boatlevator takes.... 8 seconds or so?
23:35:48 <Vorpal> plus maybe up to 20 to wait for the boat
23:35:50 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, but there needs to be a second or two at every single stop.
23:35:57 <elliott> Let's say there's 20 floors; that's about right.
23:36:04 <elliott> So it has to take more than 30 seconds.
23:36:17 <Vorpal> it won't be 20 if it is that short
23:36:18 <elliott> And it's also, well, not that reliable if someone turns.
23:36:45 <Vorpal> I thought 20 was the delay
23:36:46 <elliott> Let's say a floor's 6 high on average, taking into account that some of them will have 3-thick floors (extra lava layer, and ceiling); that's 21 floors.
23:37:09 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway boatlevator is not practical for anything less than, say, 60 blocks at a time
23:37:14 <Vorpal> elliott, hm I seen another design
23:37:18 <Vorpal> that allowed entry on side
23:37:24 <Vorpal> and used a drop shaft to get down
23:37:29 <Vorpal> elliott, I haven't tried it
23:37:41 <elliott> Vorpal: Still; if anyone presses A or D there's a complete transport blackout in the Cube. :p
23:37:45 <elliott> At least stairs never die.
23:37:49 <Vorpal> but it might work if we only want to go up to one place from a lot of different ones
23:37:56 <elliott> Gregor: http://src.chromium.org/viewvc/chrome/trunk/src/build/whitespace_file.txt?r1=67679&r2=67678&pathrev=67679
23:37:58 <elliott> Gregor: Chrome: Somewhat sparta.
23:38:36 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway I'm up for just about anything; the current plan is to just get it built, with lighting and completely empty floors.
23:38:45 <elliott> Vorpal: Then we can smash a hole in it for an entrance, and go from there.
23:39:16 <Vorpal> elliott, making holes in the lava levels would be annoying
23:39:22 <elliott> Vorpal: What would be cool is having people's homes that are multi-storey; i.e. the regular floors aren't there, just an entrance and then whatever they want inside that block.
23:39:37 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, it would. I might figure out where to poke holes in the ceilings first.
23:39:37 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't think you can place ladders on glass anyway so they are out of question I guess
23:39:49 <elliott> Vorpal: I can always put some cloth against a wall...
23:40:01 <elliott> Vorpal: Hell, I'd be fine lining every floor with cloth too.
23:40:11 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't think you need that
23:40:13 <elliott> As long as the whole thing is transparent from a distance. :p
23:40:25 <Vorpal> elliott, just that you can't place "those not really blocks" on there
23:40:36 <Vorpal> such as torches, tracks, and what not
23:40:41 <elliott> That's so a flaw in Minecraft, though; why can't they go on glass. :p
23:41:02 <elliott> The roof will be fun, you'll be able to climb up there and jump off into the sea.
23:41:18 <Vorpal> elliott, it's a feature I bet. A feature to not need to make a texture for the back of a torch mounted against a wall or something
23:41:46 <Vorpal> elliott, also minecart on glass: that would never work
23:42:06 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, it is completely unrealistic. Consider the load. Oh wait, this is minecraft.
23:42:26 <elliott> If it was realistic, you could fall from a distance onto glass and it'd shatter.
23:42:51 <Vorpal> and you wouldn't get cubical cloth from sheep
23:43:01 <Vorpal> and it wouldn't last as an outdoor road anyway
23:43:46 <fizzie> A cubic metre of cloth from a single sheep is a bit dubious too, even assuming you skip some steps there.
23:44:03 <elliott> fizzie: More than that; you get two or three blocks.
23:44:40 <Vorpal> and also obsidian a volcanic glass says wikipedia
23:45:04 <Vorpal> "Obsidian has been used for blades in surgery, as well-crafted obsidian blades have a cutting edge many times sharper than high-quality steel surgical scalpels, the cutting edge of the blade being only about 3 nanometres thick."
23:45:18 <elliott> See, in Minecraft, it's just a bitch to mine. :P
23:45:32 <Vorpal> elliott, and diamond should be harder actually
23:45:33 <elliott> But it will be good for the last three levels, for when the world goes to shit!
23:45:50 <Vorpal> "Even the sharpest metal knife has a jagged, irregular blade when viewed under a strong enough microscope; when examined even under an electron microscope an obsidian blade is still smooth and even. One study found that obsidian incisions produced narrower scars, fewer inflammatory cells, and less granulation tissue in a group of rats."
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23:45:57 <elliott> All the supplies and tools you need to rebuild the world, obsidian-lined for extra protection, and with indestructible bedrock base.
23:46:06 <elliott> Nothing could be safer -- and by god don't fuck it up this time around.
23:46:10 <Vorpal> "Obsidian is also used for ornamental purposes and as a gemstone. It possesses the property of presenting a different appearance according to the manner in which it is cut: when cut in one direction it is jet black; in another it is glistening gray. "Apache tears" are small rounded obsidian nuggets embedded within a grayish-white perlite matrix."
23:46:50 <Vorpal> elliott, will you mine that obsidian?
23:46:54 <elliott> "Apparently this removal of comprehension notation was due to the fact that generalising comprehensions to monads made errors arising from comprehensions difficult for novices to understand."
23:46:57 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean seriously that will be a pain
23:47:05 <elliott> Like that's the most of the problem with GHC's errors!
23:47:12 <elliott> Vorpal: No, I'll probably just make it lava and wet it. :p
23:47:18 <elliott> (TODO: figure out how to do vertical lava.)
23:47:21 <Vorpal> elliott, they removed comprehension?
23:47:28 <elliott> Vorpal: Monad comprehension.
23:47:47 <elliott> But lol @ removing it because it makes errors hard to understand; GHC mocks this pitiful attempt.
23:47:59 <Vorpal> elliott, I can't figure out what monad comprehension is exactly
23:48:09 <Vorpal> I mean, I can't imagine what the concept would be
23:48:11 <elliott> Vorpal: List comprehension, but for monads.
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23:48:34 <Vorpal> elliott, that makes my head spin
23:48:36 <elliott> Vorpal: See http://blog.n-sch.de/2010/11/27/fun-with-monad-comprehensions/.
23:48:44 <Vorpal> "Plinths for audio turntables have been made of obsidian since the 1970s; e.g. the greyish-black SH-10B3 plinth by Technics."
23:49:19 <elliott> pikhq: You, Only Person Who Will Use Kitten Who Isn't Me!
23:49:40 <elliott> pikhq: Should the main libc be dietlibc or uClibc? uClibc executables aren't as small as dietlibc in my experience -- like 17K vs 7K.
23:49:50 <elliott> pikhq: And they have a lot of "why is that in there?" symbols.
23:50:18 <Vorpal> read part of that link
23:50:38 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, and I'm not quite sure dietlibc does locales... but anyway.
23:51:50 <Vorpal> elliott, ugh if it doesn't
23:52:18 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah, yeah, it's all experimental, let me figure things out first.
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23:52:32 <elliott> Vorpal: I just don't want to settle for the second-best libc. :p
23:52:47 <elliott> Vorpal: (And I put a lot of effort into getting dietlibc to compile with pcc, let me tell you! I doubt uClibc will compile with non-gcc any time soon...)
23:52:55 <Vorpal> elliott, well one lacking locales surely can't be the best :P
23:53:06 -!- augur has joined.
23:53:41 <elliott> Not this second, but I can be in two seconds; are you going on?
23:53:43 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:54:02 <Vorpal> elliott, I just logged on
23:54:08 <Vorpal> will be on for a few minutes at least
23:56:32 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, maybe a US English-only system would be tolerable.
23:56:45 <pikhq> elliott: Because dietlibc is just so insanely small.
23:58:37 <elliott> pikhq: It might support locales, I don't know. I might be able to patch in locale support./
23:58:48 <elliott> pikhq: But really I'm just not sure; uClibc definitely has wider support.
23:58:50 <pikhq> That would be code size.
23:59:28 <pikhq> elliott: Downside to trying to have uclibc and dietlibc both: you will need a seperate lib dir for each.
23:59:49 <pikhq> As they are entirely seperate ABIs.