00:07:59 <elliott> oerjan: can you make oklopol come back
00:12:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: he's just busy i think
00:13:13 <Phantom_Hoover> [[Little did Beethoven know, on that cold December morning in 1770, that he was about to be born. (Randall Munroe)]]
00:14:39 -!- pingveno has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
00:15:13 <elliott> oerjan: erm he's doing his bachelors iirc, working on his thesis
00:15:18 <elliott> he's just planning to do his masters because he's crazy :)
00:15:32 <elliott> although he probably will start doing his masters before his second year is over, i guess
00:15:47 <elliott> oerjan: but he did mention having to do some last fixes on his bachelor's thesis sometime :p
00:16:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: post- I think but it hardly matters
00:17:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm. So he still keeps the ability to be funny, he just doesn't apply it to his webcomic?
00:22:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes. See: Oh Dear Family Is Sick 5 Minute Comix.
00:22:50 -!- pingveno has joined.
00:23:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Although as soon as normal programming was resumed I dropped it from my webcomic list altogether.
00:23:44 <Vorpal> <elliott> he's just planning to do his masters because he's crazy :) <-- who?
00:26:46 <elliott> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/gm2/2010-12/msg00009.html
00:27:39 <zzo38> Can we make a computer game that allows you to adjust the gravitational field strength, field eccentricity, number of deliveries per over, etc? And then possibly also more crazy things such as alien abduction (my brother suggested this).
00:28:30 <Ilari> Uh oh... 3.75Mi worth of new (<5 days) allocations from APNIC. This model now estimates IANA depletion at end of January.
00:29:01 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Deliveries per over.
00:30:17 <zzo38> An over is six consecutive balls bowled by one bowler.
00:31:05 <Ilari> Extending up to 30 days: 11 /14s, 5 /13s, 3 /12s and a /11. That's 10.25Mi addresses (plus some <0.25Mi allocations)...
00:33:59 <zzo38> Other crazy ideas include multiball mode, antigravity, sloped (or curved) ground, slowly rotating field, making the players on the team to be not people but spiders or monsters or something else, and even more possible crazy ideas.....
00:34:33 <pikhq> It really is bizarre how xkcd is funnier when he spends *less* time at it.
00:34:59 <pikhq> Ilari: Run on the bank!
00:37:15 <Ilari> Counted from delegated file for APNIC, 13 606 144 addresses have been allocated on 20101111 and since.
00:39:10 <Ilari> Holy crap: Of those, 8 124 928 were assigned this month.
00:39:55 <Phantom_Hoover> So everyone's trying to get their hands on what's left of the internet?
00:41:16 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, because otherwise the Internet will be full.
00:41:33 <pikhq> Ilari: Okay, so we can probably expect RIR depletion to start much sooner than "late next year".
00:42:05 <zzo38> When IPv6 is used more often, then IPv6 won't be full.
00:42:33 <Ilari> What's the current IPv6 address space usage? 0.027% or so?
00:42:42 <pikhq> Ilari: Sounds about right.
00:45:47 <Vorpal> <Ilari> Holy crap: Of those, 8 124 928 were assigned this month. <-- sooo, the end of ipv4 is moving to earlier?
00:46:20 <Vorpal> Ilari, that much? I blame crappy allocation
00:46:30 <Vorpal> I mean, I have a fricking /48!
00:47:01 <Ilari> 623 553 494 712 323 IPv6 networks out of 2 305 843 009 213 693 952 (0.027%) have been allocated. current RIR pool usage is at 2.74%.
00:47:19 <Gregor> 0.027%? That sounds ENORMOUS? Are we really using that much of ipv6?
00:47:19 <Vorpal> Ilari, still quite a lot more of it than reasonable
00:47:32 <Vorpal> Gregor, it *is* enormous
00:48:10 <Gregor> I guess with ipv6 they can ridiculously over-provision, and still have many trillions of ipv4 networks worth of free IPs :P
00:48:16 <Ilari> Heck, the number of network addresses allocated is about 600 trillion...
00:48:41 <Vorpal> Ilari, we *will* run out of ipv6 at this rate
00:49:06 <pikhq> Gregor: The smallest allocation is a /64.
00:49:39 <Gregor> So are we out of ipv4 yet? :P
00:49:45 <zzo38> A small number of gopherspaces are IPv6-only, and the ASCII Star Wars in color is only IPv6.......
00:49:56 <pikhq> Vorpal: There's still enough /64s to give every man, woman, child, and pet there own and have leftovers.
00:50:00 <Vorpal> zzo38, it isn't in colour on ipv6 either....
00:51:10 <Vorpal> pikhq, yes but that doesn't help when I got a /48...
00:52:27 <Ilari> /48 for each person on the planet would be only /15. The present defined unicast space is a /3 (4096 times bigger).
00:52:29 <zzo38> Then we use hypernet next time, since hypernet uses no allocation and can therefore never be run out.
00:53:17 <zzo38> Does IPv6 have more port numbers? Or is it the same port numbers?
00:53:21 <Ilari> Heck, individual allocations to RIRs are bigger than that.
00:53:30 <Vorpal> zzo38, that is not on ip level
00:53:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:54:48 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yeah, the "standard" allocation is a /48.
00:54:50 <zzo38> Vorpal: Can they fix DNS to allow a hostname to be associated with a IPv6 address and a port number range together?
00:55:12 <Gregor> That ... would not be a fix.
00:55:22 <pikhq> Vorpal: And it's still enough to grant everyone one.
00:55:38 <elliott> <Vorpal> zzo38, it isn't in colour on ipv6 either....
00:55:44 <pikhq> zzo38: It is technically possible for DNS to return an IPv6 address and a port number, but WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO?
00:55:45 <Ilari> AFAIK, The entiere present internet going IPv6-only wouldn't need enough addresses to even warrant new allocation from IANA.
00:55:56 <zzo38> pikhq: No I mean a range of port numbers.
00:56:08 <pikhq> zzo38: That said, if you really want to, you'd just need to create a new kind of DNS response and make software support it.
00:56:09 <zzo38> Or even a offset number.
00:56:18 <elliott> <zzo38> Vorpal: Can they fix DNS to allow a hostname to be associated with a IPv6 address and a port number range together?
00:56:19 <Vorpal> pikhq, is it technically possible? Wouldn't it need a new record type?
00:56:23 <elliott> zzo38: That's just NAT implemented at the wrong layer.
00:56:32 <zzo38> For example, if you want to access SMTP on port 25, and the returned offset number is 1000 then you connect to SMTP on port 1025.
00:56:36 <elliott> zzo38: That's just NAT implemented at the wrong layer.
00:56:39 <pikhq> Vorpal: New record types, I'm pretty sure, can just be added.
00:56:53 <elliott> Are there any POLICIES for ipv6 allocation?
00:56:57 <elliott> can sixxs do whatever they want?
00:57:08 <elliott> they're a provider, not an end-customer, so they shouldn't be allowed free reign
00:57:12 <elliott> e.g. giving Vorpal a /48 :)
00:57:16 <elliott> shouldn't be allowed unless he actually needs it
00:57:26 <pikhq> elliott: /48 is the standard end-user allocation, actually.
00:57:28 <Vorpal> elliott, I would be happy with a /64
00:57:31 <Gregor> How much of the ipv6 range is reserved for extraterrestrial species?
00:57:53 <zzo38> Gregor: IPv6 is not for extraterrestrial species. You need to make IPv9 for that.
00:57:59 <elliott> In my opinion, the standard allocation should be /54.
00:58:09 <elliott> Of course this is not workable with the way IPv6 is defined.
00:58:12 <pikhq> A /64 is only enough for that end-user to have a SINGLE IPv6 network using stateless autoconfiguration.
00:58:21 <elliott> pikhq: Which is a flaw in IPv6.
00:58:35 <pikhq> elliott: A /54 is actually entirely feasible.
00:58:35 <Ilari> And then there are 6 times present IPv6 unicast space reserved by IETF...
00:58:40 <elliott> pikhq: Question: In 100 years, do you think IPv6 will still be almost endlessly available?
00:58:49 <elliott> Question: Is this avoidable?
00:58:52 <elliott> Answer: Yes, but nobody wants to.
00:59:21 <Ilari> Actually, it is handy to have some space for network number.
00:59:37 <pikhq> elliott: Actually, even with current allocation policies, it's entirely possible that it will be almost endlessly available.
00:59:38 <zzo38> Even 1024 addresses should be a lot more than enough addresses for each end-user (in most cases).
00:59:43 <Ilari> Otherwise you would need to sometimes "NAT" the stuff.
00:59:51 <pikhq> There's 281474976710655 /48s.
00:59:55 <elliott> pikhq: Did you forget that technology accelerates?
01:00:08 <elliott> pikhq: As the 100 years progress, IP allocation will go up, up, up.
01:00:15 <pikhq> There's 281474976710655 /48s.
01:00:23 <Vorpal> elliott, when are we due for the singularity?
01:00:30 <elliott> pikhq: Indeed. /48 isn't the biggest block being handled out.
01:00:51 <elliott> Vorpal: Probably 100 years+. Sign up for cryonics if you hit middle age and we still don't seem to be close. :p
01:00:58 <Ilari> For ISPs, /32 is pretty standard.
01:01:03 <Gregor> I still want to make a network simulator that will simulate IP networking between Earth and Mars :P
01:01:06 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, so there is some stupid, stupid, stupid shit regarding allocations.
01:01:10 <elliott> Vorpal: Who says I was joking?
01:01:21 <Vorpal> elliott, no, but it was still funny
01:01:55 <fizzie> I don't think /48 is really supposed to be any sort of standard "end-user" thing, except if you're a cery large end-user; and even so, the network part of the address is supposed to reflect the routing hierarchy, not some sort of logical "owned by X" thing.
01:02:03 <pikhq> elliott: For instance, the DoD does *not* fucking need a /12.
01:02:20 <Ilari> IPv6 workaround oddities: NAT-to-self: Perform 1:1 NAT to address itself.
01:02:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, indeed. a /60 would be quite nice instead
01:02:33 <fizzie> I would think it'd be a lot more reasonable to just give customers as many individual /64s as they need networks.
01:02:51 <fizzie> Those are supposed to be easily renumberable anyway.
01:02:57 <Ilari> If you need internal hierarchy and only have /64...
01:03:17 <Vorpal> pikhq, /13? what a strange number
01:03:22 <elliott> pikhq: Why does the DoD have a /13.
01:03:41 <pikhq> elliott: Because GOD DAMMIT I WISH I KNEW IT MAKES NO FUCKING SENSE.
01:03:44 <elliott> pikhq: Oh right because US MILITARY ONLY IMPORTANT MILITARY IN THE WORLD SO FUCKIN' BIG TO DEFEND US FROM ALL THE 0 PEOPLE ATTACKING US
01:03:56 <Gregor> elliott: For traceability, every bullet has its own IP, and stores all interdepartmental memos on it.
01:04:02 <pikhq> elliott: It's 64 times larger than *any other entity's allocation*.
01:04:11 <Ilari> They don't. The total marked for US is about a /18.
01:04:20 <pikhq> Gregor: You're not far off.
01:04:31 <elliott> Gregor: No, no. They have an IP allocated for every secret they have. WikiLeaks actually just scans the space for open ports.
01:04:33 <zzo38> Nobody should need that many addresses, I think......
01:04:38 <pikhq> Gregor: They use IPv6 addresses as a unique identifier for objects.
01:04:44 <Vorpal> pikhq, shouldn't the RIRs get /32s or such?
01:04:46 <elliott> <Ilari> They don't. The total marked for US is about a /18.
01:04:47 <elliott> <Ilari> They don't. The total marked for US is about a /18.
01:04:50 <elliott> pikhq seems to be ignoring this :P
01:05:06 <Ilari> Now the policy seems to be that RIRs get /12 at a time.
01:05:11 <elliott> Anyway, IPv6 is being mismanged IMO; the policies need to be more stringent.
01:05:18 <elliott> How strict are the policies that apply to places like SixXS?
01:05:31 <elliott> (Evidently not *too* strict, considering some of the insane, untrustworthy shit SixXS does.)
01:06:05 <Ilari> Heck, all the IPv6 addresses allocated IN THE ENTIERE WORLD wouldn't even be a /14.
01:06:59 <fizzie> Ilari: But you don't want any sort of "internal hierarchy" that'd reflect a corporation's structure (US site, European site, etc.) to be visible in the network part, because they need to be aggregatable routing-wise. (Okay, possibly some level of internal hierarchy could be useful even for a single physical site; but I would still think also a not-necessarily-contiguous group of individual /64s would work just as well.)
01:07:10 <zzo38> Ilari: Therefore you can use one block for a private network (which might even include individual files on your computer), if you need a private network.
01:07:47 <elliott> The Internet is crazily geography-biased.
01:08:04 <elliott> Don't they *understand* that it's irrelevant on the net?
01:08:13 <hagb4rd> adress this: did you know there are more connections in a human brain then stars in in the universe?
01:08:21 <Gregor> elliott: Except that it's not irrelevant, because at some point you have to route, and you have to be able to route quickly.
01:08:24 <fizzie> The addressing is supposed to reflect the network structure so that the routing tables don't grow too much.
01:08:49 <elliott> Gregor: Sure, but it's in the core of *everything*.
01:08:52 <pikhq> Why is it impossible to find ARIN's list of IPv6 assignments?
01:08:57 <elliott> Gregor: CCTLDs should never have been invented.
01:09:11 <elliott> Gregor: Well, okay, CCTLDs are good for... governments.
01:09:15 <Ilari> Just try to put two computers on seperate logical networks to the same /64.
01:09:20 <pikhq> I can find it for each other one.
01:09:22 <Gregor> elliott: Also, for .tv domains!
01:09:33 <elliott> Gregor: That is a reason they should not have been invented too :P
01:09:48 <fizzie> Ilari: What was that related to?
01:10:09 <Ilari> That /64 might not be enough for end-user, even small one...
01:10:17 <fizzie> Ilari: You seem to be ignoring the whole "a set of individual /64s" thing.
01:10:38 <Gregor> hagb4rd: That sounds like one of those quotable-quotes that turns out to not actually be true.
01:10:39 <pikhq> Heck, I can't even find which fucking *number* is the DoD's IPv6 address.
01:11:17 <pikhq> THEY POSSESS AN ACTUAL ASSIGNMENT, AND ARIN DOESN'T SHOW WHICH ONE IT IS.
01:11:22 <elliott> <hagb4rd> adress this: did you know there are more connections in a human brain then stars in in the universe?
01:11:30 <elliott> hagb4rd: that's completely and utterly false.
01:11:45 <elliott> Unless the universe is SIGNIFICANTLY smaller than I've been told, you're off by orders of magnitude.
01:11:50 <Gregor> hagb4rd: Maximally 330 trillion connections in the human brain according to Wikipedia, which is way, WAY less than the number of stars in the universe.
01:11:56 <elliott> hagb4rd: Where the heck did you get that info?
01:12:13 <pikhq> hagb4rd: Maybe "stars visible to the human eye at night".
01:12:27 <elliott> Gregor: Not only was the universe created 6000 years ago, but it was created to be the solar system tiled 100x100.
01:12:32 <hagb4rd> at least i wonder how they know how many stars there are out there
01:12:36 <elliott> Gregor: As such, there are exactly 10,000 stars in the universe.
01:12:41 <elliott> hagb4rd: They just GUESS!!!
01:12:42 <fizzie> Vorpal: Not necessarily a contiguous set. Sure, not grouping them into a single block means it's two routing table entries, but it's still just one organization's clients. (I think the power-of-two sizes encourage over-allocating things.)
01:12:54 <elliott> hagb4rd: Or, perhaps they measure all their data and extrapolate beyond that...
01:13:00 <pikhq> hagb4rd: One estimate said 3*10^23.
01:13:05 <elliott> I'm pretty sure we've measured something CLOSE to 330 trillion stars.
01:13:07 <Ilari> Biggest individual IPv6 assignments from ARIN are /22s.
01:13:15 <elliott> Doesn't take much to put a bunch of sensors up there and listen/look intently :P
01:13:29 <elliott> Okay, maybe more like hundreds of thousands to hundreds of millions.
01:13:29 <Gregor> Wikipedia also says minimally 100 billion times 100 billion stars in the OBSERVABLE universe.
01:13:38 <elliott> hagb4rd: See, yer wrong :P
01:13:39 <fizzie> Ilari: Incidentally, I have computers in different logical networks in a single /64. (Nebula's home customers get a /64 each; not sure about their corporate clients.)
01:14:03 <Gregor> elliott: Did you know that there are less stars in the entire universe than there is Love in God's discarded toenail?
01:14:20 <pikhq> Gregor: What is the SI unit for love?
01:14:33 <elliott> Gregor: Did you know that there are fewer stars in the entire universe than there are angels that can dance on the head of a pin?
01:14:42 <pikhq> elliott: In terms of base units?
01:15:03 <pikhq> elliott: Orgasm is not a base unit.
01:15:05 <elliott> (Based on measurements of Jesus)
01:15:06 <Ilari> Giving only a single /64 and then doing some things wrong, one will break neighbor discovery, making things nasty.
01:15:15 <elliott> pikhq: It's the base unit of LOVE.
01:15:23 <Gregor> pikhq: Photons. It's quantum.
01:15:23 <Gregor> pikhq: In every second you're being bombarded by trillions of Love of Jesus photons. This is in spite of the fact that only 0.0001% of them make it through the ozone layer.
01:15:25 <Gregor> (The ozone layer is evil btw)
01:15:32 <elliott> Gregor: That all came through at once.
01:15:33 <fizzie> Ilari: What do they do wrong?
01:15:35 <pikhq> elliott: The SI base units are: meter, kilogram, second, ampere, kelvin, candela, and mole.
01:15:44 <Gregor> elliott: Yeah, so did yours, my connection is all wonkulous *shrugs*
01:15:59 <elliott> Meter, kilogram, second, ampere, kelvin, candela, mole, orgasm and turkey.
01:16:21 * pikhq sticks several thousand kg m^2/A s^3 through elliot
01:16:34 <Ilari> Don't know about them now, but I heard somebody complain they broke neighbor discovery somehow in the past.
01:16:38 <fizzie> Ilari: FWIW, I did the logical segmentation of the /64 with a bridging firewall (interface-based rules), and some host-lists for services that care.
01:16:44 <Gregor> `addquote * pikhq sticks several thousand kg m^2/A s^3 through elliot <elliott> pikhq: I'm underage!
01:16:46 <HackEgo> 242) * pikhq sticks several thousand kg m^2/A s^3 through elliot <elliott> pikhq: I'm underage!
01:16:53 <fizzie> They might have; I had problems with it.
01:16:54 <Vorpal> pikhq, yes, I thought you defined that
01:17:03 <pikhq> Vorpal: You may know that whole unit as the Volt.
01:17:11 <elliott> Gregor: pikhq: I hope that when they figure out how to define the kilogram independently of a chunk of metal in France or wherever, they also change it to the gram instead. :P
01:17:28 <pikhq> elliott: Would be nice, but that would fuck up many, many derived units.
01:17:30 <elliott> Having "kg" be the base unit and specifying that, when prefixing it, you pretend it's "g" is just COLOSSALLY STUPID.
01:17:55 -!- Sgeo has joined.
01:18:37 <Sgeo> I shouldn't be on here right now
01:18:39 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, but then all of a sudden you've got orders of magnitude between the named derived units and the natural expression in base units.
01:18:50 <Sgeo> But I think I have an awesome idea for a definition of "heat" in GoL
01:19:07 <elliott> pikhq: The universe doesn't care about small numbers. :p
01:19:08 <Gregor> <Sgeo> We'll measure it in Love of Jesus photons!
01:19:08 <pikhq> elliott: And that makes things a Pain.
01:19:16 <elliott> pikhq: Just don't use base units when they're a pain ...
01:19:35 <Vorpal> elliott, solution: define the base unit as g. Which is defined to be 1/1000 of the weight of the prototype.
01:20:07 <Sgeo> (Note: This is not the whole thing) XOR the current generation with the next generation
01:20:37 <Sgeo> Blocks are completely cold, blinkers are somwhat warm, but not as hot as some chaos
01:20:44 <pikhq> Vorpal: Problem: the natural unit for power is the milliJoule, the natural unit for force is the milliNewton, the natural unit for resistance is the milliOhm, the natural unit for electric potential is the milliVolt, and so on and so forth.
01:20:50 <Gregor> That is some hot, hot chaor.
01:20:53 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, solution: define the base unit as g. Which is defined to be 1/1000 of the weight of the prototype.
01:20:59 <elliott> Vorpal: The prototype is *really* obsolete and work is ongoing to replace it now.
01:21:04 <elliott> Vorpal: It is, after all, getting lighter.
01:21:25 <Sgeo> Now, take the heat for generation 1, and XOR it with the heat of generation 2
01:21:26 <elliott> Vorpal: Any change to g should be done simultaneously with the change to an actual definition, and there it's easy; just divide the equation by 1000 :P
01:21:31 <Vorpal> pikhq, yes the constant factor will be annoying
01:21:35 <Sgeo> Similar to a second derivative
01:21:38 <Vorpal> pikhq, solution: rename the kg to g
01:21:41 <Vorpal> wait that is painful too
01:21:46 <elliott> <pikhq> Vorpal: Problem: the natural unit for power is the milliJoule, the natural unit for force is the milliNewton, the natural unit for resistance is the milliOhm, the natural unit for electric potential is the milliVolt, and so on and so forth.
01:21:53 <Sgeo> By that measure, blinkers are completely cold
01:21:56 <elliott> pikhq: Leave the other units intact.
01:22:02 <Vorpal> elliott, I see why easily
01:22:02 <elliott> pikhq: If something says kg, keep it saying kg.
01:22:23 <elliott> Arbitrary restrictions the SI definers decided to impose shouldn't stop sanity prevailing :P
01:22:29 <Sgeo> For any pattern: keep doing it. If it ever reaches 0, it's Polynomial Heat, otherwise, it's Nonpolynomial Heat
01:22:38 <pikhq> elliott: Because a Joule is a m^2 kg s^-2, and so a Joule in base units would be *100* m^2 g s^-2.
01:22:59 <elliott> pikhq: OK. Anything wrong with that?
01:23:13 <pikhq> elliott: It's a BITCH to do physics with!
01:23:21 <Sgeo> Are there any boring things (things that stay in one play, don't deserve to be called warm) that are nonpolynomial heat?
01:23:22 <pikhq> elliott: Which is the only time that you even care about base units!
01:23:31 <elliott> pikhq: Nobody likes physicists.
01:23:32 <Vorpal> pikhq, any chance of renaming the kg to be g?
01:23:38 <elliott> Vorpal: That's terrible since g is in use.
01:23:52 <Vorpal> the gram to the milligram
01:23:53 <elliott> Vorpal: No, because g is in use.
01:24:28 <Gregor> Just name it "klograham", where the fact that "klo" sounds a lot like "kilo" and "graham" sounds a lot like "gram" is a coincidence.
01:24:30 <pikhq> Rename it to the grave, the original unit of mass in the French metric system.
01:24:38 <Gregor> The shortform for the klograham will be "kg"
01:25:07 <pikhq> Said unit of mass is actually about equal to 1 kilogram.
01:25:17 <elliott> Gregor: No, dammit, because then we'd have to talk about kkgs :P
01:25:45 <elliott> Gregor: Make it the k, and then we can measure things in kkks.
01:25:52 <pikhq> Vorpal: It's effectively impossible for something other than The Kilogram to be precisely equal to 1 kilogram.
01:26:09 <Vorpal> elliott, I knew you would make a joke about kkk....
01:26:11 <elliott> Gregor: "How heavy is that dude?!" "Oh, about 3 kkk."
01:26:23 <elliott> Vorpal: LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU
01:26:29 <pikhq> (the kilogram is, of course, defined as the mass of The Kilogram. Stupid.)
01:26:38 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah, kinda like your mom. Who is also, unrelatedly, a KKK member.
01:26:41 <Vorpal> elliott, you are soooo predictable
01:26:43 <elliott> Gregor: This is because she hates black people.
01:26:59 <Gregor> elliott: That's a good reason to be a KKK member.
01:27:10 <Gregor> elliott: Pretty much the only, actually.
01:27:11 <Vorpal> pikhq, so how is the grave defined?
01:27:49 <elliott> Gregor: I dunno man, their robes are pretty slick.
01:28:05 <pikhq> Vorpal: The grave was defined as the mass of 1 cm^3 of water at the melting point of ice.
01:28:23 <zzo38> pikhq: That should make more sense than The Kilogram.
01:28:25 <pikhq> Vorpal: The pressure and the composition of the water were not defined.
01:28:35 <Vorpal> pikhq, oh we get circular here?
01:28:37 <elliott> pikhq: PRESSURE PUSHIN' DOWN ON ME
01:28:40 <zzo38> Then define the pressure and composition of the water!
01:28:58 <Vorpal> elliott, and how is pressure defined?
01:29:13 <pikhq> zzo38: A better definition would probably fix Avogadro's number.
01:29:34 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a01QQZyl-_I
01:29:36 <pikhq> Sorry, s/cm^3/dm^3/
01:29:45 <pikhq> AKA 1 liter (not an SI unit).
01:30:00 <Vorpal> `addquote <pikhq> zzo38: A better definition would probably fix Avogadro's number. <Sgeo> It's broken?
01:30:03 <HackEgo> 243) <pikhq> zzo38: A better definition would probably fix Avogadro's number. <Sgeo> It's broken?
01:30:06 <oerjan> it's a bit sad, really, here the physicists were all ready to make the perfect measurement system. but somehow the chemist managed to get a mole in.
01:30:19 <Vorpal> Sgeo, he meant "fix" as in "not variable"
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01:30:40 <elliott> oerjan: wait that wasn't a pun.
01:30:43 <pikhq> Yeah, it should be a motherfucking unitless quantity.
01:30:46 <elliott> oerjan: i thought it was :P
01:30:53 <oerjan> elliott: um yes it was
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01:30:55 <Vorpal> elliott, it was in fact.
01:31:22 <elliott> i thought it was at first :P
01:31:44 <Sgeo> oerjan, COMMENT
01:32:33 * Sgeo gets the pun finally
01:33:30 <Sgeo> oerjan, comment on GoL heat
01:33:41 <elliott> oerjan: if you don't he'll burn to death
01:35:35 * Sgeo tries to figure out if an (obviously impossible) dot that appears for 1 gen, then is gone for 2, then repeats, has polynomial heat or not
01:36:45 <Sgeo> I might need paper :/
01:37:38 <elliott> oerjan: do /you/ know the algorithm to calculate a type's induction scheme from its ADT definition?
01:38:28 <oerjan> Sgeo: hm so the "nth derivative" is found by XORing the (n-1)th derivative with its next generation?
01:39:00 <Sgeo> Hmm. I think so
01:39:49 <oerjan> i've done a similar calculation before, it's pascal's triangle mod 2: 1 11 101 1111 10001 110011 1010101 11111111 1000000001
01:41:13 <oerjan> the 2^n'th "derivative" in fact ends up being just the xor of two 2^n'th apart original generations
01:41:23 <hagb4rd> on the brain-connections-issue: if there are 10^11 neurons and each one can make 100 connections, then the total possible number of different connections is 10^13 times 10^13, which is about 10^26 ... there are about 10^80 atoms in the universe.. how many stars did u say? 33x10^13 stars.. so it seems i was right.. elliott :>
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01:41:32 <elliott> Gregor: ^ tell him how he's wrong i'm too lazy
01:41:51 <oerjan> so unless you have a 2^n period, it will _never_ fade out completely to 0
01:41:53 <elliott> hagb4rd: erm wait you know this channel is about programming right
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01:42:29 <oerjan> elliott: oh COME ON it's no more off topic than we use to be
01:42:41 <Sgeo> oerjan, so, polynomial vs nonpolynomial is not too interesting/
01:42:45 <Gregor> elliott: The pseudomath in hagb4rd's last thing was too mind-bogglingly stupid for me to actually comment on.
01:42:59 <Sgeo> Gregor, I loved pseudomath back in my day
01:43:04 <elliott> Sgeo: THAT IS WHY YOU ARE STUPID.
01:43:24 <elliott> Gregor: Yes, but if you don't correct him he'll start believing it and bring it up all the time as a reason to be awed by... something because that's what people look like do, dear god save us and reply to it.
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01:43:27 <Sgeo> Gregor, linky, or just what hagb4rd last said?
01:43:40 <Gregor> <hagb4rd> on the brain-connections-issue: if there are 10^11 neurons and each one can make 100 connections, then the total possible number of different connections is 10^13 times 10^13, which is about 10^26 ... there are about 10^80 atoms in the universe.. how many stars did u say? 33x10^13 stars.. so it seems i was right.. elliott :>
01:44:00 <Gregor> hagb4rd: If there are 10^11 neurons and each one can make 100 connections, then the brain can have 10^13 connections. Period.
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01:44:52 <hagb4rd> i mentioned this, because i think there must be an alternative way of addressing.. someway like a neural network
01:45:41 <Gregor> (Also the rest of your numbers are all wrong, but that's irrelevant in the face of that wtf)
01:46:25 <oerjan> hagb4rd: <pikhq> hagb4rd: One estimate said 3*10^23.
01:47:15 <oerjan> hagb4rd: maybe you are right _if_ there were connections between almost every two neurons, but obviously there isn't
01:47:30 <Sgeo> oerjan, and discard the "100 connections" thing
01:47:45 <hagb4rd> thats not really important.. im really not that good in math
01:47:53 <elliott> hagb4rd: It seems to me that you are not trying to find out whether it's true, you're just trying to find a way to make it true.
01:47:57 <Gregor> oerjan: Even then he'd be off by 4 orders of magnitude.
01:48:07 <elliott> hagb4rd: Besides, if it was true, what would it mean?
01:48:08 <Sgeo> What is hagb4rd trying to make true?
01:48:13 <elliott> Why would it be relevant? I'm actually interested.
01:48:21 <elliott> Sgeo: that there are more connections in the human mind than there are stars in the universe.
01:48:58 <Sgeo> Oh. Stuff that uses actual physical numbers stemming from science. Bleh *gets bored*
01:49:16 <elliott> `addquote <Sgeo> Oh. Stuff that uses actual physical numbers stemming from science. Bleh *gets bored*
01:49:23 <HackEgo> 244) <Sgeo> Oh. Stuff that uses actual physical numbers stemming from science. Bleh *gets bored*
01:49:47 <hagb4rd> hell..i was just wondering about life, cosmos and stuff
01:50:32 <oerjan> hagb4rd: btw i think they estimate the number of stars by estimating the number and sizes of galaxies (many billions) and estimating the number of stars per galaxy for those nearby enough to count stars (for our own galaxy, also many billions)
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01:51:57 <Sgeo> I feel sorry for GoL scientists, who, in a random soup beginning universe, have limited means of learning about the cosmos
01:52:34 <elliott> <hagb4rd> hell..i was just wondering about life, cosmos and stuff
01:52:37 <oerjan> although i'm not sure the estimate for stars is entirely accurate - red dwarf stars are hard to observe, but then that would give an underestimate
01:52:37 <Sgeo> I think I have a way for them to determine the age of the universe, though
01:52:40 <elliott> hagb4rd: I just want to know what you'd conclude from your statement.
01:52:46 <elliott> why is the number of stars relevant to neurons?
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01:53:19 <oerjan> Sgeo: didn't we have a previous discussion at one time where we assumed the initial soup should be very thin, to avoid too much chaos
01:53:21 <Sgeo> oerjan, are there any patterns that have ONLY themselves (and other things at a distance of two empty cells or more away, of course) as parents?
01:53:28 <Sgeo> oerjan, I don't remember :(
01:53:33 <hagb4rd> [2:44]<hagb4rd>i mentioned this, because i think there must be an alternative way of addressing.. someway like a neural network <--- elliott
01:53:36 <pikhq> It is such a weird experience being at a party where you speak only one of the two spoken languages there.
01:53:44 <elliott> hagb4rd: i do not understand
01:54:25 <Sgeo> "i do not understand" is an invitation to speak, not an insult.. at least, if it were coming from me. elliott is caustic
01:54:34 <elliott> yes, i am actually asking hagb4rd what he means
01:54:34 <Sgeo> Wow, it felt weird trying to avoid capitals in that
01:54:41 <elliott> i legitimately don't understand and want to know
01:55:04 <oerjan> Sgeo: no idea about self-parent patterns
01:55:15 <hagb4rd> yes thanks np sgeo, but im not really intrested, sry ;)
01:55:53 <elliott> hagb4rd: don't reply to me saying you're right if you're not going to elaborate when i ask sincerely.
01:56:03 <Sgeo> Because if there were, and there was some chaos in the universe, and they knew how often some such patterns should appear, and know how likely such patterns are to decay, etc. etc.
01:56:16 <Sgeo> But be hit by random universe chaos
01:56:37 <Sgeo> Which is similar to decay, kind of
01:57:56 <Sgeo> oerjan, I still don't remember that discussion :(
01:58:16 <oerjan> Sgeo: well i'm not sure who was there
01:58:34 <oerjan> it was many months ago, at least
01:59:59 <oerjan> the idea i think was that it would be easier for life to survive in such an environment
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02:05:41 <elliott> oerjan: if i start an esowiki project to create formal definitions of the multiple facets of Turing-completeness, accounting for disagreements about ais-style proofs, and Befunge/index.php type scenarios and Easy, can I coerce you into participating?
02:05:56 <elliott> need an actual mathematician to give the scribbles credibility :D
02:07:53 <zzo38> elliott: I would like there to be such a project on esowiki, though.
02:13:52 <Vorpal> elliott, "Befunge/index.php"?
02:14:32 <Vorpal> elliott, doesn't TCness have a formal definition?
02:14:44 <Vorpal> elliott, in the original church-turing thingy
02:14:54 <zzo38> Vorpal: But sometimes there are strange circumstances
02:15:08 <elliott> Vorpal: Church-Turing thesis? If so: that's just a non-mathematical conjecture.
02:15:27 <elliott> Vorpal: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Befunge/index.php is my language which ais523 has proved both TC and not.
02:15:32 <zzo38> Vorpal: See the [[Befunge/index.php]] and [[Easy]] pages on the esolang wiki for more information.
02:15:34 <elliott> " Proof that the language is Turing-complete: you can trivially write a BF interpreter in it, by reading strings from user input onto the stack (easy in Befunge-93), then running them.
02:15:34 <elliott> Proof that the language is not Turing-complete: it's impossible to compile all Turing machines into it, because there are an infinite number of Turing machines yet a finite number of Befunge/index.php programs."
02:15:52 <elliott> Vorpal: Easy has the same basic situation (there's one program and it's a brainfuck interpreter).
02:16:21 <elliott> Vorpal: The basic definition used is... "can emulate all universal Turing machines", although it's hard to distinguish that from "can emulate *a* universal Turing machine" and ... it's basically a clusterfuck.
02:16:22 <Vorpal> elliott, actually one is false I think
02:16:39 <elliott> Vorpal: Both are true. They exploit the informality of the definition of Turing-complete.
02:16:48 <zzo38> But sometimes we get even more strange situations.....
02:16:51 <Vorpal> elliott, in the second case, what is the input
02:16:54 <Vorpal> elliott, and what is the program
02:17:22 <Vorpal> elliott, is the input not actually part of the program?
02:17:57 <Vorpal> elliott, if we get rid of the concept of input this can trivially be resolved. Since all input is then part of the program
02:18:10 <elliott> Vorpal: That does not solve the problem in the slightest.
02:18:16 <Vorpal> elliott, how does it not?
02:18:25 <elliott> Vorpal: It may solve it for Befunge/index.php but it doesn't solve it for anything else.
02:18:41 <Vorpal> elliott, it also solves it for Easy
02:18:51 <elliott> Easy is a pathological case :P
02:18:58 <Vorpal> elliott, easy to solve yes
02:19:20 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, P'' had no I/O. I/O has no place in a definition of TC.
02:19:35 <elliott> Same reason it's in the Halting problem.
02:19:36 <Vorpal> elliott, it just complicates stuff
02:19:49 <elliott> Anyway, what we need is multiple precise, mathematical definitions; it seems clear that there are at least three things people mean when saying "Turing-complete" and surely certainly more; these should all be formalised separately.
02:20:09 <elliott> (Pipe dream: Coq library with all of them defined and a framework for proving things are $variation_on_TC in Coq.)
02:20:14 <elliott> (That would be really nice.)
02:20:30 <Vorpal> elliott, why the silly name Befunge/index.php?
02:21:15 <elliott> Vorpal: Talk:Befunge/index.php was created protected because it was a frequent spambot target. ais noted in his protect message that it would only be useful in the unlikely case that someone invented a language named Befunge/index.php.
02:21:27 <elliott> And, of course, being me...
02:21:48 <elliott> Vorpal: I created it just to troll the esolang wiki into arguing over its TCness :P But I didn't think it was actually legitimately ambiguous.
02:21:54 <Vorpal> elliott, "In spring of this year on the IRC channel I proposed a language called ℒ. ℒ is a severely restricted subset of your favourite indisputably Turing-complete language (say, Pascal) -- so severely restricted, in fact, that you can only write a single program in ℒ. But that program is a Universal Turing Machine simulator. Is ℒ Turing-complete? "
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02:22:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I remember that discussion
02:22:33 <elliott> cpressey adamantly holds the position that you must be able to write a program for *every* Turing machine to qualify as TC
02:22:46 <elliott> e.g., a brainfuck interpreter where you can specify an input of arbitrary size in the interpreter program qualifies
02:23:00 <elliott> but not a "regular" brainfuck interpreter that reads from stdin
02:23:17 <Vorpal> elliott, how does that even make sense
02:23:41 <elliott> Vorpal: It makes perfect sense.
02:24:08 <elliott> Vorpal: If the program size is bounded, then there isn't a program for every Turing machine.
02:24:27 <Vorpal> "and blah blah blah this is boring shut up Chris." <--- what
02:25:17 <Vorpal> elliott, but why does there have to be one for every TM?
02:25:46 <elliott> Vorpal: Because otherwise the language where there's only one program and it's a BF interpreter is TC.
02:26:18 <elliott> Vorpal: It is, of course, completely useless and you can't write any program you want in it.
02:26:32 <elliott> cpressey believes this is sufficient justification for not believing it to be TC; your definition may vary.
02:26:43 <Sgeo> Issues of input
02:26:47 <Vorpal> elliott, in some sense of TC he is right
02:26:52 <pikhq> Moral of the story, TC is ambiguous.
02:26:56 <Sgeo> Sounds almost like when I deluded myself into thinking I disproved God via math
02:26:56 <elliott> Vorpal: My WHOLE POINT is that there are multiple valid definitions.
02:27:04 <elliott> Sgeo: No, that just sounds idiotic.
02:27:36 <Sgeo> I sort of decided that uncomputable meant unknowable, and that therefore Chaitin's constant was an unknowable number
02:27:50 <Sgeo> And if God's supposed to know everything...
02:28:21 <Sgeo> I think my idea of "uncomputable = unknowable" had something to do with Oracle machines and input
02:28:27 <pikhq> Sgeo: "Rock heavy enough God can't lift it" is the same damned argument.
02:28:54 <elliott> I think the best "mathematical" argument for god is the natural numbers. And even that's silly.
02:29:02 <elliott> Sgeo: You do realise we know values of the Busy Beaver function, which is uncomputable?
02:29:02 <pikhq> Well, except yours is weaker. "Uncomputable" generally means "uncomputable using a UTM", not... That.
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02:30:12 <elliott> Sgeo: Also, you can work out N prefix bits of a given halting constant with a lot of effort.
02:30:35 <elliott> Sgeo: Depends how good a mathematician you are...
02:30:59 <elliott> Sgeo: The first four bits of binary lambda calculus's Chaitin's constant are .0001.
02:31:30 <elliott> Sgeo: I mean, you can do it just by looking at every program with N bits in it and proving whether it halts or not.
02:31:37 <elliott> Then it's just numberthathalt/numberthatdon't.
02:31:59 <elliott> So for a simple language like binary lambda calculus, it's not hard to calculate the first few bits.
02:32:17 <pikhq> Huh. It has been proven that Sigma(12) > g1.
02:32:42 <Sgeo> I think I was thinking "Oracle machine hooked up to input to make machine that outputs a Chaitin's constant using fewer... symbols than should be expected".
02:32:43 <pikhq> (g1 being the starting value in the sequence that defined Graham's number)
02:32:45 <Sgeo> Or something like that
02:32:53 <Sgeo> Did I mention I no longer believe this?
02:33:12 <pikhq> (that is to say, it's greater than 3 uparrow^4 3)
02:33:46 <pikhq> ... Hmm. Actually, the lower bound for the entire sequence is known.
02:34:12 <pikhq> Sigma(2k) > 3 uparrow^k-2 3.
02:35:02 <elliott> pikhq: What an upper bound :P
02:35:37 <elliott> pikhq: Not sure I believe in numbers that big.
02:36:00 <pikhq> oerjan: Sigma(n) is the Busy Beaver function.
02:36:10 <tswett> pikhq: G_1 is 3^^^^3, if it's defined correctly. :P
02:36:38 <pikhq> tswett: ... Yes...
02:36:39 <elliott> tswett: And G_2 is a pony!
02:36:47 <tswett> Precisely. G_2 is a pony.
02:37:04 <pikhq> tswett: And G_64 is insane.
02:37:13 <elliott> I think we should just replace every number larger than, say, 26 in mathematical literature with a pink, sparkly picture of a pony.
02:37:30 <tswett> I think 27 is an important number, so we should keep it.
02:37:40 <elliott> tswett: I think pony is an important number too.
02:38:08 <tswett> 163 is also a pretty important number, come to think of it, because e^(pi*sqrt(163)) is within 0.0000000000001 of an integer.
02:38:25 <elliott> tswett: It's also within 0 of an integer!*
02:38:31 <elliott> *0 is a rounded value here
02:38:47 <elliott> pikhq: "Semi-implicit batched remote code execution as staging" --Oleg
02:38:55 <elliott> pikhq: Hypothesis: For any string of words, Oleg can be smarter than you about it.
02:38:57 <pikhq> elliott: I think we should replace the term "number" with "pink, sparkly picture of a pony".
02:39:11 <elliott> Graham's pink, sparkly picture of a pony is very large.
02:39:23 <elliott> It would take more space than there is in the universe to draw it.
02:40:09 <pikhq> The same is true of the g1 pink, sparkly picture of a pony.
02:40:35 <pikhq> It's larger than the pink, sparkly picture of a pony of Planck volumes in the Universe.
02:41:07 <elliott> http://okmij.org/ftp/DreamOS.html
02:44:02 <pikhq> BTW, Planck units are most definitely the most awesome system of units ever.
02:46:17 <pikhq> There's definitely something to be said for E=m.
02:46:41 <oerjan> YOU MEAN E = m^2 + p^2
02:47:08 <oerjan> *YOU MEAN E^2 = m^2 + p^2
02:47:24 <elliott> oerjan: you mean E = vibrating strings
02:47:47 * oerjan swats elliott in E minor -----###
02:47:56 <pikhq> oerjan: No, I definitely meant E=m. Who cares about the energy of an object in motion, anyways? :P
02:48:50 <oerjan> THAT IS THE KIND OF ATTITUDE THAT HAS LEAD TO THE CURRENT OBESITY EPIDEMIC
02:49:36 <elliott> oerjan: you need like a web form where people can file requests to be married to you, just for a few weeks
02:49:39 <elliott> it could be very profitable
02:50:18 <elliott> pikhq: don't you agree, i mean
02:50:24 <elliott> that comment totally warrants brief matrimony.
02:50:51 <pikhq> elliott: Warrants brief polyamorous matrimony.
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02:54:38 <elliott> pikhq: "InDecember 1999, it was found that Netscape Communicator used ROT-13 as part of an insecure scheme to store email passwords."
03:01:24 <elliott> pikhq: Hmm. Can you change the page size on x86-64?
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03:12:38 <Ilari> elliott: Nope. The page sizes are fixed.
03:13:03 <elliott> Ilari: That's a shame. 4K is so tiny.
03:13:12 <Ilari> Well, there are 4MB ones too...
03:14:58 <elliott> Ilari: You can use 4MB pages?
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03:16:27 <Ilari> There's flag in second-to-lowest page table structure on if the entry is pointer to 1024 page structure or pointer to page itself (if it is pointer to page, it will be 4MB).
03:17:50 <Ilari> (well, at least late iteration X86s supported 4MB pages, and I presume X86-64s do too...)
03:18:43 <Ilari> Or it might be that X86-64 had 4kB and 2MB page sizes...
03:19:09 <elliott> Ilari: Hmm... would be nice to have something inbetween, say 1MB.
03:20:01 <pikhq> x86-64 supports up to 1GiB pages.
03:20:38 <Ilari> Actually, only three page sizes: 4KiB, 2MiB and 1GiB (which may not be supported).
03:20:49 <pikhq> Ah, right, those are the only ones.
03:21:30 <pikhq> x86 base, PSE+PAE, and... Absurd.
03:22:13 <pikhq> (okay, it's only absurd with respect to the currently available RAM, not with respect to address space or all of what could reasonably *have* an address.)
03:22:13 <elliott> That's a whole 12 pages on a super-high-end desktop system!
03:22:30 <elliott> Although in THIS case I actually have all of disk. But not all of it will have page entries.
03:22:46 <elliott> Still, that's 2048 theoretical maximum pages on the biggest reasonable consumer disk manufactured today :P
03:22:47 <Ilari> The reason why it is 1GiB is that it is next level of aggeration (512 2MiB pages).
03:23:35 <Ilari> Just like 2MiB/4MiB is the next step from 4KiB.
03:23:52 <elliott> So how easy is it to use 2 MiB pages in an OS? I mean, compared to the code requires to use 4 KiB.
03:24:51 <Ilari> Well, if one wanted to use 2MiB pages only, perhaps even sightly simpler than using 4KiB pages...
03:25:09 <Ilari> Since that would cause one page table level to vanish.
03:25:19 <pikhq> elliott: For a 4 MiB page, one simply sets the PSE flag in the page table.
03:25:48 <pikhq> elliott: For a 2 MiB page, one simply also supports PAE, which has the side effect of halving the larger page size.
03:26:09 <elliott> pikhq: And x86-64 is based on PAE.
03:26:17 <elliott> pikhq: (Great idea, that; base your next-generation future-proof architecture on a massive hack.)
03:26:48 <pikhq> They really, really should have thrown out more of x86 with that.
03:27:21 <Ilari> At least they threw out most of segmentation...
03:28:00 <elliott> Ilari: still have to deal with it in real mode :)
03:28:17 <pikhq> True, segmentation only exists for privilege seperation now, thankfully.
03:28:41 <Ilari> Actually, 32 bit protected mode is the worst...
03:28:52 <elliott> Ilari: It would be wonderful if x86-64 specified some IO port stuff you could do that would make it automatically turn on the A20 line and switch into long mode, and give some flag back that x86 wouldn't (make it be something that does nothing on plain x86).
03:29:15 <elliott> Ilari: Then you could just make your initial bootsector be "shove to IO port; check response; if it's good, jump into 64-bit code; otherwise error message".
03:29:32 <Sgeo> oerjan, measure of heat that is simpler than "destroyed blocks", but has the same "problem" of internal activity with no external activity being cold: Draw a bounding box. Count how many generations it takes for an escape of the bounding box. 1/that is the heat
03:29:33 <elliott> We have to go through real mode, check CPUID, disable the A20 line ourselves, go into protected mode, and go into long mode.
03:29:40 <pikhq> elliott: Or even *write an actual address to jump to* to that IO port.
03:29:57 <elliott> pikhq: That would work, but IO ports touching the instruction pointer feels really weird to me.
03:30:03 <Sgeo> Actually, that's crap
03:30:13 <pikhq> elliott: Fair enough.
03:30:40 <elliott> pikhq: Right now I'm going slowly (quickly) insane trying to get into long mode and set up a page fault handler.
03:30:45 <Sgeo> Draw bounding box. Advance until it's about to escape. Count how many cells escape
03:31:11 <Sgeo> Do some fudge factor to make it comparible usefully
03:32:56 <pikhq> elliott: ... Huh. PAE is actually nowhere near as bad of a hack as you'd think.
03:33:33 <elliott> pikhq: It totally is, though. :p
03:33:48 <pikhq> elliott: Setting the PAE bit of CR4 changes the entire page data structure.
03:35:03 <pikhq> elliott: Each entry in the page table becomes double the size, and there's another level of nesting in the paging.
03:35:38 <pikhq> elliott: And x86-64 adds yet another level of nesting.
03:35:39 <elliott> olsner: hey can you link me to your protected mode / long mode snippets so i can steal them again :D
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03:51:22 <elliott> pikhq: Paging sure is complicated.
03:51:30 <pikhq> I love headphones.
03:52:10 <oerjan> ...you don't seem to be on the same page
03:52:35 <pikhq> Parties are loud. And I wish not to leave the basement.
03:52:47 <pikhq> And headphones solve much of the noise problem.
03:53:14 <pikhq> Oddly enough, parties are even *louder* when half of the people in attendance are deaf.
03:54:07 <elliott> <elliott> pikhq: Paging sure is complicated.
03:54:20 <pikhq> Segmentation sucks.
03:56:02 <elliott> pikhq: I JUST WANT TO GO INTO LONG MODE WHY DO I HAVE TO SET ALL THIS STUFF UP MAN? YOU HATE ME, CPU
03:56:56 <pikhq> elliott: Would it make you feel better to know that they actually expend valuable wafer space on this bullshit?
03:57:00 <pikhq> ... Probably not, no.
03:57:41 <elliott> pikhq: I'm not entirely sure *what* is in the wafer of a modern x86-64 processor... everything's so small that they can fit Micro Manhattan in there, and yet chips aren't really getting smaller... WAIT!
03:57:52 <elliott> pikhq: To comply with the GFDL, they have a copy of Wikipedia in there.
03:58:00 <elliott> In fact, that's the source of ALL computing bloat.
03:58:37 <elliott> Mathnerd314: You mean they don't REALLY have a copy of Wikipedia in there to comply with the GFDL???????????????????????????
03:59:36 <elliott> Mathnerd314: ????????????/////////////////
03:59:38 <pikhq> elliott: All computing bloat but that of Microsoft.
03:59:48 <elliott> pikhq: No, they have a copy of Wikipedia in there too. It's a long story.
04:00:04 <Mathnerd314> elliott: no, they have 1) a compiler 2) a VM 3) an interpreter 4) an optimizer 5) a copy of Windows 6) several encryption/compression algorithms, such as AES, DES, and MPEG
04:00:08 <pikhq> elliott: Microsoft also has a copy of every single version of Windows in there, for the sake of compatibility.
04:00:19 <elliott> Mathnerd314: WOW THAT IS GOOD TO KNOW, BECAUSE I WAS BEING TOTALLY SERIOUS
04:00:31 <elliott> since when does x86-64 have an interpreter in it
04:00:32 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: On the silicon?
04:00:46 <elliott> also they have shit to SUPPORT MPEG, but they don't have an actual MPEG codec.
04:00:56 <elliott> Mathnerd314: on what grounds do you claim this?
04:01:10 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: It has opcodes to make those algorithms more efficient.
04:01:29 <Mathnerd314> http://www.via.com.tw/en/initiatives/padlock/hardware.jsp
04:01:47 <elliott> Mathnerd314: OK, link me to the page where it says "We have an actual complete MPEG decoder in hardware."
04:02:38 <elliott> Mathnerd314: I'm waiting...
04:02:43 <Mathnerd314> http://www.via.com.tw/en/products/processors/c7/ "all VIA C-Series mobile chipsets integrate hardware MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 decoding acceleration"
04:02:55 <elliott> Mathnerd314: That's marketing bullshit. Note "acceleration".
04:02:57 <pikhq> That acceleration is not a full MPEG decoder.
04:03:08 <elliott> Mathnerd314: What they mean is there are instructions dedicated to certain tasks which, when implemented in an MPEG decoder, speed up the process.
04:03:09 <pikhq> Odds are, it's a fast inverse discrete cosine transform.
04:03:20 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Now where's the interpreter? And the optimiser?
04:03:41 <elliott> Mathnerd314: (Also the copy of Windows...)
04:04:03 <Mathnerd314> elliott: pretty standard features... it interprets the machine instructions, and optimizes them when it can
04:04:20 <elliott> Mathnerd314: That's not an interpreter ... That's silicon.
04:04:26 <elliott> OK, so it's microcode, but it's *not* an interpreter.
04:04:35 <elliott> Mathnerd314: And no, CPUs aren't in the business of optimising their instructions...
04:04:49 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Pipelining and the like, yes. Branch prediction, yes. Outright optimisation, *no*, far too expensive.
04:04:55 <elliott> Mathnerd314: OK, where's the compiler?
04:05:07 <elliott> Mathnerd314: OK, where's the compiler?
04:05:18 <Mathnerd314> compiler = interpreter + optimization, obviously
04:05:21 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: I call anything faster than a room full of females optimization.
04:05:29 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: And NO IT FUCKING ISN'T.
04:05:41 <elliott> That is ... not what a compiler is.
04:05:48 <elliott> That's what an optimising interpreter is.
04:06:03 <elliott> Mathnerd314: You're obviously just trolling, so here we go: where's the claimed copy of Windows?
04:06:38 <Mathnerd314> elliott: see #2 in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_evaluation#Futamura_projections
04:06:56 <elliott> Mathnerd314: I know what the Futamura projections are. Specialisation is one of my great loves.
04:07:07 <elliott> Mathnerd314: An interpreter and an optimiser together do NOT a specialiser make.
04:07:11 <elliott> You have no idea what you are talking about.
04:07:17 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Specialisation is *very* different from optimization.
04:07:27 <elliott> A specialiser optimises, but an optimiser doesn't specialise.
04:07:42 <pikhq> elliott: Actually, a specialiser doesn't necessarily optimise.
04:07:48 <Mathnerd314> ok, whatever. I'll agree there's (probably) no copy of Windows
04:07:52 <elliott> pikhq: It's a useless specialiser if it doesn't.
04:08:03 <pikhq> elliott: Never said it was a *useful* specialiser. :)
04:08:49 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Where's the VM?
04:09:13 <pikhq> (if you mean "virtual memory" by that, I'll hunt you down and kick you into next week.)
04:09:42 <Mathnerd314> since I start weeks on Sundays, that means tomorrow.
04:10:04 <Mathnerd314> so I'll just fall asleep instead of letting you kick me
04:10:06 <pikhq> *Far* into next week.
04:10:15 <elliott> Mathnerd314: You really don't start weeks on Sundays, you just claim to.
04:10:43 <elliott> I have noted several people who like to say that for them the week starts on Sunday and they all feel very strongly about it being "right". They also go "oh no, the weekend is over, it's Monday and a new week begins!!!111".
04:10:48 <Mathnerd314> elliott: no... sunday is "noneday", and I count starting from 0
04:10:56 <elliott> Mathnerd314: No you don't. You really don't.
04:11:05 <elliott> You're just saying that because it sounds interesting.
04:11:59 <Mathnerd314> elliott: no... listen to J. H. Conway some time
04:12:27 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Stop being psuedoïntelligent for a bit.
04:12:37 <elliott> Mathnerd314: are you just naming all these things and people thinking I don't know what or who they are?
04:12:45 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Presumably you are referring to the Domesday algorithm.
04:13:00 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Doomsday.
04:13:06 <elliott> Mathnerd314: But I am about 90% sure that you do not, actually, think of Sunday as Noneday. And that you do not actually start counting at 0.
04:13:14 <elliott> Mathnerd314: At least not for days of the week.
04:14:13 <Mathnerd314> I don't see how I could tell where I start counting, other than saying that I do
04:14:50 <Mathnerd314> I stopped counting out loud long long ago...
04:15:02 <pikhq> I'm fairly certain that he typically just thinks of the names of celestial bodies and/or associated deities with "day" appended for the days of the week.
04:16:06 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: what? then why would I have trouble remembering how to spell "Wednesday"?
04:16:45 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Because you have *extreme* difficulty remembering the Old English term for Odin.
04:18:56 <Mathnerd314> I don't know enough about Odin to know if I've forgotten about (it/him/...)
04:21:41 <elliott> pikhq: https://gist.github.com/657234#LID75 In which olsner manages to make me hate real mode.
04:21:45 <elliott> pikhq: https://gist.github.com/657234#LID75 In which olsner manages to make me hate long mode.
04:24:06 <pikhq> elliott: Clearly, "jmp rip+0" should be enough to initial long mode.
04:24:34 <elliott> pikhq: MAKE THE PAIN GO AWAY
04:25:59 * pikhq puts elliot out of his misery
04:26:07 * pikhq also puts elliott into further misery.
04:46:53 <elliott> quintopia: (this is the technical term)
04:46:58 <elliott> Quadrescence: also dude you can use spaces
04:47:04 <elliott> multicast:many people :: ?:one person
04:48:07 <elliott> pikhq: Fun fact! "if (write(fd,buf,n) < 0) { perror("write"); exit(1); }" prints "write: Success" and exits with failure on HALF of all possible bufs.
04:48:26 <elliott> pikhq: Why? Because sizeof(size_t) = sizeof(ssize_t); write takes the former and returns the latter.
04:48:29 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:VLC_Icon.svg
04:48:35 <Sgeo> PERTY GRADIENTS
04:48:38 <elliott> pikhq: (I suppose one could make ssize_t a bigger integer, but nobody does.)
04:48:45 <elliott> Sgeo: You're fucking psycho.
04:49:13 <Sgeo> There's a reason I have a link to a bunch of Nuvola icons on User:Sgeo
04:49:35 <elliott> Sgeo: Because you're fucking psycho?
04:50:10 <Sgeo> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nuvola-like_mail_internet.PNG you can't tell me that this isn't pretty
04:50:58 <elliott> That globe-and-plug thing looks awful on it. As well as making evry little sense.
04:51:03 <elliott> And the envelope has an awkward angle.
04:51:09 <elliott> And ... no, no it's not pretty. You're insane.
04:51:25 <Sgeo> What about just the globe part?
04:52:24 <elliott> I could not stare at it for more than two seconds.
04:52:41 <elliott> Nuvola is one of the worst icon sets ever created, switching to it turns your desktop into a lens flare generator.
04:53:29 * Sgeo gibbers in joy at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuvola
04:54:59 <elliott> Sgeo: HAPPY FOURTH BIRTHDAY
04:55:33 <Sgeo> Why are there GNOME icons for Nuvola
04:55:36 <quintopia> elliott: link me to something you would describe as pretty
04:55:40 <Sgeo> Nuvola makes me think very KDE thoughts
04:55:43 <quintopia> (in the visually attractive sense)
04:55:57 <elliott> quintopia: Imagine the opposite of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuvola#Examples_of_icons.
04:56:19 <quintopia> elliott: it's a subjective thing. link me to the opposite for you -.-
04:56:28 <quintopia> I WANT TO KNOW HOW YOUR MIND WORKS
04:56:34 <elliott> "Link to something pretty" is a pretty vague question ...
04:56:45 <elliott> Kind of hard to do on the spot.
04:57:00 <quintopia> next time you see something pretty, link me
04:57:01 <Sgeo> This is pretty imo: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Nuvola_icons
04:58:52 <elliott> quintopia: It's hard. "This is pretty" is a rare thought for me; "beautiful" maybe.
04:59:02 <elliott> Prettiness tends to be rather vapid and flashy ... like Nuvola ...
04:59:09 <quintopia> elliott: beautiful is good enough. do that then.
04:59:18 <elliott> quintopia: But that's even harder.
04:59:34 <quintopia> just next time it happens and you remember
04:59:44 <oerjan> elliott is just trying to hide the fact he thinks _everything_ is ugly
04:59:54 <quintopia> oh geez yeah those icons suck balls
05:00:21 <quintopia> oerjan: must be a lonely sad depressing life
05:00:41 <Sgeo> For regular use maybe, I don't know, but surely to look at on occasion...
05:00:48 <oerjan> WE WERE TALKING ABOUT HIM NOT ME
05:01:13 <elliott> quintopia: i think plenty of things are beautiful, oerjan just likes to project his crankiness onto me :)
05:01:30 <elliott> but yeah nuvola is like staring at a lightbulb
05:03:34 <Sgeo> I don't think I ever mentioned the dumb stuff I've done with a lightbulb
05:04:32 <elliott> quintopia: Come to think of it, the last few things I've thought "wow, that's pretty" have probably been in Minecraft, and I probably didn't screenshot them.
05:04:39 <elliott> Such is the way of random number generators.
05:07:26 <elliott> quintopia: http://www.math.cornell.edu/~mec/2008-2009/HoHonLeung/fig.7.png This might be pretty.
05:07:31 <elliott> Argh, I am no good at introspection.
05:08:32 <elliott> quintopia: I suppose so? :p
05:08:54 <elliott> The 3D version http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/trefoil.gif would be nicer, except the shading and colours are horrible.
05:08:59 <quintopia> i like my women as symmetrical as i can get them, so i suppose i can relate :P
05:09:27 <quintopia> render your own trefoil in a raytracer
05:09:47 <elliott> nah. i've never used a raytracer and don't really want to
05:10:30 <elliott> quintopia: google helped me find this http://i35.tinypic.com/1r42zd.jpg
05:11:04 <quintopia> mirrored people always look bizarre.
05:11:34 <quintopia> (also, symmetry isn't my only criterion in women)
05:11:40 <Sgeo> Note to self: Stop looking at blinkers as being + shaped. They're not
05:11:40 <elliott> quintopia: that's offensive, i was in a mirror accident and now my second half is a permanent mirror
05:11:44 <elliott> typing is kind of difficult
05:12:29 <Sgeo> With narrow spacing of blocks, even the block definition of heat has blinkers being warm
05:12:30 <quintopia> `addquote < elliott> quintopia: that's offensive, i was in a mirror accident and now my second half is a permanent mirror
05:12:53 <elliott> oerjan: how did i parse that
05:12:56 <HackEgo> 245) < elliott> quintopia: that's offensive, i was in a mirror accident and now my second half is a permanent mirror
05:13:10 <elliott> `run sed -i 's/< ell/<ell/g' quotes
05:13:16 <HackEgo> 245) < elliott> quintopia: that's offensive, i was in a mirror accident and now my second half is a permanent mirror
05:13:17 <quintopia> why is it that hackbot has such a long warm-up period?
05:13:23 <oerjan> elliott: i don't know, did it make sense?
05:13:30 <elliott> `run sed -i 's/\< ell/<ell/g' quotes; quote 245
05:13:31 <HackEgo> 245) <elliott> quintopia: that's offensive, i was in a mirror accident and now my second half is a permanent mirror
05:13:56 <quintopia> elliott: while you're at it, tack the typing thing on the end
05:14:18 <quintopia> the next line "typing is kind of difficult"
05:15:09 <oerjan> must have been the mirror half
05:15:18 <quintopia> is it just a line in a plaintext file?
05:15:20 <elliott> `run sed -i '245s/$/ <elliott> typing is kind of difficult/' quotes
05:15:27 <elliott> quintopia: yep. it was previously a sqlite db
05:15:32 <elliott> but i chucked all that out and rewrote the system unixy
05:15:38 <HackEgo> 245) <elliott> quintopia: that's offensive, i was in a mirror accident and now my second half is a permanent mirror <elliott> typing is kind of difficult
05:16:29 <elliott> quintopia: http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/quotes is the raw quote database
05:16:46 <elliott> 10:53:32 <elliott> addquote http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/addquote
05:16:46 <elliott> 10:53:32 <elliott> allquotes http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/allquotes
05:16:46 <elliott> 10:53:32 <elliott> quote http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/quote
05:16:46 <elliott> 10:53:32 <elliott> pastequotes http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/pastequotes
05:16:46 <elliott> 10:53:32 <elliott> And the latest quote database is always available at http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/quotes.
05:16:53 <elliott> quintopia: ^ all the sources
05:16:54 <quintopia> i suppose flat files makes sense for a channel this small, but when i create a hackbot to take over the IRC universe, it will use a db :P
05:17:05 <elliott> quintopia: well, there's actually now also http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/pastenquotes
05:17:09 <elliott> quintopia: and it was *way* slower with a DB
05:17:38 <quintopia> that's why i wouldn't switch over until 100000 quotes
05:18:06 <quintopia> (or until i need the ability to search for specific quotes easily by content)
05:18:10 <elliott> quintopia: err, i can do that
05:18:21 <elliott> ...well it usually works :D
05:18:25 <elliott> quintopia: it's called grep.
05:18:27 <quintopia> no, you can only use regexes and such
05:18:35 <elliott> quintopia: as opposed to...
05:18:42 <elliott> quintopia: and even after 100000 quotes it still wouldn't be faster than e.g. a strfile-indexed file
05:18:44 <quintopia> you can't attach category lists to quotes
05:18:59 <elliott> quintopia: nobody can be arsed to do that.
05:19:12 <elliott> nobody fundamentally gives a shit about qdbs, good luck trying to make them
05:19:20 <quintopia> i would write a learning system to do it if i had 100000 quotes to categorize :P
05:19:40 <HackEgo> 29) PA ET ANNET UNIVERSET DER DE ENESTE PERSONEN OERJAN: <oerjan> sa jeg kan bare konkludere med at det er feil, eller er verden helt bonkers \ 53) <pikhq> Gregor is often a scandalous imposter. It's all the hats, I tell you. \ 75) <fungot> ehird: every set can be well-ordered. corollary: every set s has the same diagram used
05:19:50 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 9 Dec 12 05:19 bin/quotes -> bin/quote
05:19:51 <quintopia> (i realize that i'm never going to do this, it being that i don't give a shit either)
05:19:58 <HackEgo> 37) <oklopol> i can get an erection out of a plank, you can quote me on that. \ 39) <oklopol> anyway, torture would be fun to experience, true <oklopol> should put that on my todo list \ 42) <oklopol> i'm my dad's unborn sister \ 52) <Octalnet> oklofok: I'm a tad over-apologetic. I apologize. \ 55) <oklopol> GregorR: are you
05:20:04 <Gregor> elliott: bin/bin/quote?
05:20:10 <wareya> oh god it's so active in here tonight
05:20:14 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 9 Dec 12 05:19 quotes -> bin/quote
05:20:24 <elliott> `run unlink bin/quotes; cd bin; ln -s quote quotes
05:20:32 <HackEgo> 37) <oklopol> i can get an erection out of a plank, you can quote me on that. \ 39) <oklopol> anyway, torture would be fun to experience, true <oklopol> should put that on my todo list \ 42) <oklopol> i'm my dad's unborn sister \ 52) <Octalnet> oklofok: I'm a tad over-apologetic. I apologize. \ 55) <oklopol> GregorR: are you
05:20:47 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.16424
05:20:52 <elliott> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.16424
05:21:07 <quintopia> elliott: what's the best way to select a random line?
05:21:10 <Sgeo> `pastequotes <elliott>
05:21:13 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.22726
05:21:15 <Sgeo> `pastequotes <Sgeo>
05:21:23 <elliott> quintopia: I use shuf; http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/quote
05:21:24 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.17216
05:21:35 <HackEgo> 69) <oklopol> if a girl is that cute, i don't care how many penises she has \ 169) (in #irp) <Sgeo> Flonk, ask on #esoteric? <Flonk> Sgeo: yeah well its C++, so not that esoteric :P
05:21:38 <Sgeo> Ok, why are those links broken?
05:21:42 <HackEgo> 231) <elliott> Vorpal loves the sodomy. <Vorpal> elliott, sure why not \ 232) <elliott> [...] ALWAYS OPEN TO TRYING NEW THINGS. \ 233) <elliott> So it's not exactly trivial. [Later about same thing] <elliott> It's a trivial C program :P \ 241) <elliott> ONLY GOOD QUOTES PLEASE! AND NO FAKE ONES EITHER! \ 242) * pikhq sticks
05:21:54 <Gregor> elliott: It'd be nice if `quote 69 didn't give you 169 and 269 too :P
05:22:13 <HackEgo> 69) <oklopol> if a girl is that cute, i don't care how many penises she has
05:22:36 <elliott> Gregor: I don't want to make it impossible to search for a number. Admittedly you could do that by doing (93) or whatever.
05:22:59 <Gregor> I'm glad I've made such persuasive arguments.
05:23:52 <quintopia> elliott: poor you and your lack of sleep
05:23:58 <Sgeo> My quotes are boring
05:24:10 <oerjan> `addquote <Sgeo> My quotes are boring
05:24:12 <HackEgo> 246) <Sgeo> My quotes are boring
05:24:24 <quintopia> can't get a word in edgewise next to elliott :P
05:24:35 <elliott> quintopia: nobody can, the graphs prove it
05:24:57 <elliott> quintopia: i was the most active talker when i was only on for two hours or so, at night, on an iphone, concealing this fact
05:25:05 <quintopia> elliott: the evidence before the court is incontrovertible, there's no need for the jury to retire.
05:25:19 <Sgeo> I think I still like XOR Heat, despite the uselessness of polynomial heat vs not
05:26:02 <elliott> quintopia: hard to have a life in a mental unit.
05:26:17 <elliott> i'd have gone insane without the wonders of mobile data links.
05:27:12 <elliott> `run echo '#!/bin/sh' >bin/quote
05:27:18 <quintopia> surely you could have smuggled a knife into your room somehow? there's no end of fun to be had with a knife...
05:27:21 <elliott> `run echo 'allquotes | if [ "$1" ]; then' >>bin/quote
05:27:28 <elliott> `run echo ' if [ "$(($1+0))" = "$1" ]; then' >>bin/quote
05:27:33 <elliott> quintopia: good to know your sanity is still intact
05:27:39 <elliott> `run echo ' sed "$1{p;q};d"' >>bin/quote
05:27:45 <elliott> `run echo ' else' >>bin/quote
05:27:51 <elliott> `run echo ' egrep -i -- "$1"' >>bin/quote
05:27:57 <elliott> `run echo ' fi' >>bin/quote
05:27:59 <Gregor> elliott: Good lord man X_X
05:28:02 <elliott> `run echo 'else shuf -n 1; fi' >>bin/quote
05:28:07 <elliott> Gregor: i actually wrote those lines on the spot!
05:28:14 <elliott> Gregor: that sentence would be true, were it not a lie!
05:28:19 <HackEgo> 69) <oklopol> if a girl is that cute, i don't care how many penises she has \ 106) <Warrigal> A person's sex is not the same thing as their penis length.
05:28:24 <HackEgo> 69) <oklopol> if a girl is that cute, i don't care how many penises she has \ 69) <oklopol> if a girl is that cute, i don't care how many penises she has
05:28:38 <HackEgo> 69) <oklopol> if a girl is that cute, i don't care how many penises she has \ 169) (in #irp) <Sgeo> Flonk, ask on #esoteric? <Flonk> Sgeo: yeah well its C++, so not that esoteric :P
05:29:37 <elliott> `run sed -i 's/ sed "$1{p;q};d"/ sed "$1q;d"/' bin/quote
05:29:58 <HackEgo> 69) <oklopol> if a girl is that cute, i don't care how many penises she has
05:30:05 <HackEgo> 69) <oklopol> if a girl is that cute, i don't care how many penises she has
05:30:11 <HackEgo> 69) <oklopol> if a girl is that cute, i don't care how many penises she has \ 169) (in #irp) <Sgeo> Flonk, ask on #esoteric? <Flonk> Sgeo: yeah well its C++, so not that esoteric :P
05:30:16 <elliott> Gregor: leet unix coder, at your service
05:30:49 <Sgeo> <tmi story relating to quote #69 here>
05:31:24 <elliott> Sgeo: you have a tmi story relating to that quote?
05:31:54 <Gregor> Does it involve the phrase "or more precisely, pre-op transexual"
05:32:17 <Sgeo> It's less of a story, and more of an incorrect belief I had as a kid
05:32:20 <elliott> Gregor: Hellooooooooo Sine!
05:32:33 <elliott> Gregor: (I think Ami pumped oestrogen into #lobby.)
05:32:48 <Gregor> elliott: Funny since Ami is a bot run by a male :P
05:32:59 <elliott> Gregor: *by a male... FOR NOW
05:33:03 <elliott> Or rather, by a (male... FOR NOW)
05:33:08 <elliott> GET OUT WHILE YOU STILL CAN
05:34:23 <Sgeo> My mom told me that girls were different from boys, and my creativity was very limited. I thought "almost exactly the same, except at the tip"
05:34:48 <elliott> I... and ... uh, what was the difference at the tip ...
05:35:40 <Sgeo> Instead of a slit, I thought maybe a star, for example
05:36:31 <elliott> The Girl With The Starry Urethra.
05:37:31 <oerjan> a sure-fire path to stardom
05:37:59 <elliott> oerjan: What, can girls aim their penises better?
05:38:02 <elliott> YOUR PUNS REQUIRE SCIENTIFIC BACKING
05:38:26 <Gregor> `addquote <elliott> oerjan: What, can girls aim their penises better?
05:38:26 <HackEgo> 247) <elliott> oerjan: What, can girls aim their penises better?
05:38:46 <elliott> Gregor: I should have added "starry" in there to complete the quote's perfection :P
05:38:58 <elliott> I'm having nightmarish images in my head now of a penis with a starry urethral opening.
05:39:07 <Sgeo> We need to add datestamps to the bot, so we can find out the context of quote
05:39:35 <elliott> Sgeo: It's called a copy of the logs and grep.
05:39:49 <elliott> Sgeo: Or... just looking at the hg history on the HackEgo log.
05:40:14 <elliott> Sgeo: Anyway, are you sure you want people to be able to find what you said easily forever? :P
05:40:50 <Gregor> elliott: Actually I occasionally recreate HackEgo's hg repo, losing (from the perspective of the public viewer) all history.
05:41:03 <elliott> Gregor: that's revisionism for you
05:41:25 <oerjan> you know who else liked revisionism? stalin!
05:42:38 <elliott> oerjan: and their baby, stalitler. unfortunately the world was not ready for gay couples to have babies and it was killed shortly after.
05:42:39 <Gregor> oerjan: Yeah, but then he wrote the Declaration of Independence, founded the USSR (United States Soviet Region) and began a reign of prosperity that lasts to this very day.
05:43:00 <elliott> Gregor: I approve of this history, the only history. And also the true history.
05:47:05 <quintopia> In Soviet America, history alter you.
05:52:09 <Sgeo> oerjan, suppose life moved at c/2 orthogonally
05:52:24 <Sgeo> Let's call the direction of movement EAST
05:52:40 <Sgeo> How will that affect what they can perceive, what experiments they can run?
05:52:53 <elliott> <Sgeo> oerjan, suppose life moved at c/2 orthogonally
05:52:59 <elliott> i find that completely unlikely.
05:53:09 <elliott> c/2s can't do much that isn't moving.
05:53:56 <quintopia> elliott: but if we were all in it together, it'd be just business as usual in our reference frame (although, significant blueshifting and redshifting of the night sky maybe?)
05:53:57 <oerjan> hasn't it been proved that ships cannot go faster than c/2
05:54:10 <elliott> quintopia: we're talking about game of life.
05:54:36 <elliott> oerjan: intelligent life moving at c/2 would have to compute *and* do half of moving in one generation, or something
05:54:39 <quintopia> elliott: i thought you were making a joke by remapping it to real life
05:54:42 <elliott> oerjan: c/100000000000000 is more likely :)
05:55:34 <quintopia> (and in any case, i was doing that whether or not you were)
05:55:34 <Sgeo> Which came first? Proof of c/4 max speed diagonal, or of c/2 max speed orthogonal
05:55:46 <quintopia> i think i'm missing some piece of this particular GoL conversation though
05:55:46 <Sgeo> I know one is easily proved from the other
05:56:14 <Sgeo> quintopia, scientists living inside GoL
05:57:45 <elliott> quintopia: basically sgeo is crazy
05:58:07 <quintopia> elliott: no more crazy than you though. just crazy in a different way.
05:58:55 <elliott> quintopia: an inferior way!
05:59:31 <quintopia> in any case, they'd have to have spaceships travelling ahead of them at all times if they wanted to be able to detect one another to turn before colliding
06:00:01 <quintopia> and they'd have to rebuild each other's spaceships when they passed one another to maintain them at that distance
06:00:28 <quintopia> so if they didn't cooperate, they'd die really easily at that speed
06:00:51 <quintopia> but i doubt they would trust each other any more than we would, and so wouldn't do so
06:01:20 <elliott> quintopia: the scientists are really just hypothetical here, it could just be scientist :P
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06:02:36 <quintopia> oh, i suppose they could stop, build their own spaceship, let it get a little bit ahead, and then start chasing it
06:02:41 <Sgeo> If they evolve like that, there would possibly be pressures against breaking that sort of trust. Or it could be an automatic biological thing, like heartbeat in humans
06:03:56 <quintopia> Sgeo: evolution would tend to make them smaller, and shave off unnecessary components. aka, they'd devolve into viruses. more than half of the population would be viruses because there could be more of them in the same amount of space
06:04:23 <quintopia> i think the "waiting a bit before starting moving" is a more evolutionarily stable strategy
06:06:15 <quintopia> ahahaha, i just imagined someone posting on the GoL database "the smallest pattern that never stabilizes" and then coming back later and retagging it "the smallest pattern that evolves into a community of intelligent lifeforms"
06:06:32 <quintopia> (yes i realize both are impossible)
06:07:32 <quintopia> (i also realize that even if it were, the former, at least, couldn't be proven)
06:07:49 <Sgeo> Good luck proving the latter too
06:08:18 <Sgeo> How is the latter impossible, exactly?
06:08:38 <quintopia> ...because the former is impossible?
06:08:53 <Sgeo> Define "stable"?
06:09:00 <quintopia> would not a community of interacting intelligences be unstable by definition?
06:09:28 <Sgeo> I still don't see why the former is impossible
06:09:43 <quintopia> how is GoL stability usually define?
06:09:49 <Sgeo> I have no idea
06:10:01 <oerjan> we know GoL is TC, so you definitely can do neverending processes
06:10:41 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Conways_game_of_life_breeder_animation.gif stable?
06:11:32 <quintopia> lack of the first doesn't preclude the second
06:11:56 <quintopia> yeah i would call a breeder stable
06:12:54 <quintopia> there comes a point where the possibility of certain reactions (that may have taken place in the past) can never happen again <-- how i would define stabilizing
06:14:45 <quintopia> for instance, if *our* universe is accelerating in its expansion, there will come a point where we can never observe light incoming from the boundaries of the universe again
06:16:03 <Sgeo> A still-life that has only itself as a parent...
06:16:08 <Sgeo> Once you run out of those
06:16:34 <Sgeo> (I was thinking of that as a way for particularly smart and determined inhibitants to determine the age of the universe)
06:17:02 <Sgeo> (Not counting those parents of it whose active cells other than it are at a distance such that they have no influence)
06:20:04 <quintopia> but yeah, with my definition of stabilizing above, it is trivially true that any finite pattern in an infinite universe must eventually stabilize
06:23:20 <Sgeo> Also, define "reaction"
06:23:27 <Sgeo> I think that's a bit ambiguous
06:23:34 <quintopia> what is obvious is that you'd need the "active area" to expand forever
06:24:05 <quintopia> in order for a sequence of events never to repeat
06:24:53 <Sgeo> Actually, that's blindingly obvious once mentioned but it didn't occur to me
06:25:52 <quintopia> i define reaction more intuitively than precisely
06:26:15 <quintopia> as two or more patterns interacting in a way that produces other patterns (or not)
06:26:29 <quintopia> here patterns would be cohesive distinct pieces
06:27:03 <quintopia> where all the parts are necessary for it to behave the way it does
06:27:12 <quintopia> basically, what the greeks meant by atom
06:28:10 <Sgeo> For a definition of pattern, what about: Works even when separated by all other active cells by 2 empty cells
06:28:27 <Sgeo> "works" is weird
06:29:28 <quintopia> so imagine you had puffers travelling orthogonally in all four directions, releasing nothing but gliders alternately to either of the directions "behind" them
06:29:45 <quintopia> and those gliders are timed to hit each other and annihilate
06:30:07 <quintopia> in some sense, the same thing never happens in the same place twice
06:30:39 <quintopia> and yet, the places and times where particular reactions happen form a very simple predictable sequence
06:30:52 <quintopia> so i would call it a stable system
06:31:06 <quintopia> you can describe it by a small number of formulas and nothing surprising will ever happen
06:31:10 <Sgeo> "predictable" isn't well defined
06:31:32 <Sgeo> All of GoL is 100% predictable
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06:31:50 <quintopia> it's the "simple" part that's interesting here
06:32:30 <quintopia> the 3-body gravitational problem is completely predictable for any 3 specified bodies, but it's far from simple for many of those arrangements
06:33:10 <quintopia> completely determined...but hard to describe
06:34:16 <quintopia> so in a stabilized universe, an observer could look around and say "these types of reactions are going to keep happening for eternity, and those are never going to happen again"
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06:46:57 <Sgeo> All the more reason that an infinite random soup is a much better place to grow up
06:47:22 <Sgeo> Although, even with eventual stabilization, life could thrive for a little while
06:47:45 <Sgeo> Or even indefinitely, I guess. Just not.. creatively, if the brains don't expand
06:56:42 <quintopia> because on some scale something fundamentally new must happen
06:58:22 <quintopia> if someone were able to say "oh look, we can do this thing that's never been done!" that would contradict the definition of stabilized as the point after which nothing new happens.
07:03:29 <Sgeo> It's almost awesome that GoL universes die --- I am no longer _as_ jealous
07:03:38 <Sgeo> Our universe dies, their universe dies
07:03:52 <Sgeo> (Except, ofc, infinite random soup)
07:04:38 <Sgeo> Maybe for GoLverse a definition of heat should be such that we can talk about heat death == stabilization
07:05:26 <coppro> what do you define as life in the GOL?
07:06:26 <Sgeo> I ... don't know. I do know that I like the thought of intelligent life in GoL
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07:12:46 <Sgeo> Gemini hardly seems like it deserves to qualify
07:13:26 <TLUL> Gemini as in what? Sounds like an interesting conversation.
07:14:26 <TLUL> Ah, thought so.
07:14:31 <Sgeo> You know logs exist, right?
07:14:45 <TLUL> Yes, but I didn't know where.
07:15:07 <TLUL> Ah, hoped maybe a bot would have a link.
07:15:17 <TLUL> Where are they?
07:15:23 <Sgeo> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D
07:15:34 <TLUL> 這是通道有深奧的編程計算機語言。在這裡，我們用英語交談，如中文，請找其他渠道
07:15:39 <TLUL> That's all I see of the topic
07:15:53 <TLUL> In my client, that's "symbol not displayable"
07:16:05 <hagb4rd> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D ?
07:16:25 <TLUL> Alright. Dunno why that's easier than someone just answering me, but meh.
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07:16:50 <Sgeo> TLUL, so you know how to get it for next time
07:17:08 <Sgeo> Oh, /topic doesn't work in CGIIRC
07:17:26 <Sgeo> quintopia, replicator
07:17:32 <TLUL> quintopia: It's a UCC-based spaceship.
07:17:53 <TLUL> It's not a replicator, as it cannibalises its parent configuration
07:18:08 <TLUL> http://conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=399&p=2327#p2327
07:18:24 <Sgeo> Can it be made to not do that?
07:18:29 <quintopia> yeah i wasn't aware of a GoL replicator existing yet...
07:18:49 <TLUL> It can be, yes.
07:19:31 <TLUL> It has three-armed constructors at each end. Two arms are for construction, one is for destruction of the parent.
07:19:47 <Ilari> Wonder when the first true replicator will be constructed...
07:20:20 <TLUL> The tape is a glider stream, duplicated and reflected back at each end, offset enough to enter the child created last time it passed through.
07:22:31 <Ilari> How many diffrent variants of Gemini there are? Last I looked a while ago there were at least 3 (the original, true knightship variant and slope 5 ship with different speed)...
07:22:44 <quintopia> wait, if you took out the deconstruction arm, it would be a replicator?
07:22:58 <quintopia> okay i agree with the thread then... awesome pattern
07:23:37 <Ilari> Anyway, it was the first spaceship with slope not 0 or 1.
07:26:30 <quintopia> so it would require some more modification
07:27:15 <Ilari> Wonder if there is pattern that is bounded in width, length goes to infinity and lengthwise minimum coordinate also goes to infinity, which is not a forward-shooting rake?
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07:28:34 <Ilari> Would be pretty wild patterns: Gun shooting caterpillars and rake that shoots caterpillars... :-)
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07:31:00 <Ilari> For constructing those, four-slavo glider synthethis of The Caterpillar would be very useful.
07:41:51 <quintopia> what you're describing sounds like one of the fuse-ships (being chased by something that burns the fuse slower)
07:41:55 <pikhq> I just had dinner.
07:42:01 <pikhq> It is 00:41 local time.
07:42:38 <pikhq> Nope, suburb of Colorado Springs.
07:42:55 <pikhq> Not very far from the UTC-7 meridian.
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07:51:55 <pikhq> quintopia: All that said, I now have parts of Albuquerque stuck in my head.
07:52:38 <quintopia> pikhq: if you can wake up some neighbors by singing it at the top of your lungs, please do so
07:54:30 <pikhq> quintopia: I'm afraid I cannot without going outside.
07:54:36 <pikhq> And it is FUCKING COLD OUTSIDE HOLY FUCK.
07:55:03 <coppro> BECAUSE I HAD MY TRAY TABLE UP
07:55:58 <pikhq> According to weather.gov, the current temperature at the nearest reporting station (the Air Force Academy, a few miles away) is 15°F (-9°C).
07:56:12 <pikhq> And... Very, very bizarrely humid.
07:56:19 <pikhq> ... 68% humidity? What the hell?
07:56:31 <pikhq> The usual humidity here is more like 0.
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08:11:59 <TLUL> <Sgeo> Oh, /topic doesn't work in CGIIRC
08:12:20 <TLUL> I'm not using CGI:IRC
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08:59:40 <Ilari> Well, if the temperature is low, even slight amount of water gives high RH.
09:01:46 <Ilari> The same amount of water that gives 70% RH at -10degC would give only about 6.3% RH at 25degC.
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10:31:43 <fizzie> As one of those freaky Northerners, I'm conractually obliged to note that -9°C is pretty far from "fucking cold outside holy fuck".
10:33:28 <fizzie> With that amount of expletives, it should be at least -30°C, and even that is pushing it; it's not such a unheard-of temperature.
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10:59:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, indeed, -9°C is more like "uncomfortably cold, but sadly quite common"
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11:49:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw I found a lone block of obsidian out in the middle of nowhere yesterday
11:49:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, there is a torch trail to it from the crafting bench near the water pillars
11:50:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, no water or lava near it
11:51:51 <fizzie> I don't think I had anything to do with that.
12:19:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, know anything about the floating *wood* block above a very flat mountain top opposite of nailor's old house?
12:19:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, it is next to your house
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13:00:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Lyttle Lytton idea: "There are no words in the English language to describe what I have seen, which is why the remainder of this book is in Finnish."
13:03:44 <olsner> IMO anything below -20°C is enough for "fucking cold holy fuck"
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14:11:21 <Vorpal> olsner, wait, I thought you said 25
14:11:31 <Vorpal> 20 is "fucking horrible cold"
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15:29:14 <oerjan> <Vorpal> fizzie, btw I found a lone block of obsidian out in the middle of nowhere yesterday
15:29:24 <oerjan> clearly a relic of the previous ice age
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15:54:22 <elliott> 22:03:56 <quintopia> Sgeo: evolution would tend to make them smaller, and shave off unnecessary components. aka, they'd devolve into viruses. more than half of the population would be viruses because there could be more of them in the same amount of space
15:54:30 <elliott> quintopia: that's only true iff it's true in this world too
15:55:33 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, FWIW, I have previously pointed out that existing examples of CA evolution march inexorably towards miniaturisation.
15:56:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: sure, that's what'll happen if you aren't a bastard and don't make them scavenge.
15:56:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: and don't tile the plane with evil things they have to avoid.
15:56:37 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, remember the tribulations in trying to invent an interesting conservative CA?
15:56:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: yep. but you can do it inside life, really
15:57:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you just have to get an initial lifeform that has some kind of decaying thing that needs feeding :P
15:57:20 <elliott> and also tile the plane with obstacles
15:57:28 <elliott> such that even small, dumb things will bump into something eventually
15:57:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally: "There are no words in the English language to describe what I have seen, which is why the remainder of this book is in Finnish." Comment in the context of a Lyttle Lytton entry.
15:57:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Although not really.
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15:58:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That's merely funny, and as Adam loves to point out, it would be a perfectly good start to a comedic book.
15:58:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But it's not actually badly written, just very silly. :p
15:58:33 <oerjan> `translatefromto en fi There are no words in the English language to describe what I have seen, which is why the remainder of this book is in Finnish.
15:58:51 <HackEgo> Ei ole sanoja Englanti kielellä kertoa, mitä olen nähnyt, minkä vuoksi jäljellä tämä kirja suomeksi.
15:59:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, "badly-written" isn't necessary; just that you would think "oh, GOD" if someone made you read a book that opened with it.
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16:03:15 <Phantom_Hoover> "As there are no words in the English language to describe what I have seen, I shall lay out the ones I have created for the purpose in brief."? It's pushing the word limit, and it's a bit clunky.
16:04:13 <Phantom_Hoover> But it has that groanworthy quality of a pretentious SF or fantasy novel.
16:04:33 * oerjan hits Phantom_Hoover with a lump of scrith
16:06:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "There are no words in the English language to describe what I have seen. Therefore, allow me to tell you about my constructed language."
16:07:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: 2 sentences appear several times in old competitions.
16:07:18 * oerjan hits elliott with a loaf of lembas
16:08:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Okay, I can't actually find two-sentence ones.
16:08:28 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, [[You need not limit an entry to one sentence, and you can even enter more than once. ]]
16:08:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "As there are no words in the English language to describe what I have seen, the rest of this book is in Klingon."
16:08:59 <elliott> (You saw very violent things.)
16:09:04 <Phantom_Hoover> That's actually /funny/, though; Klingon makes things funny.
16:09:49 * oerjan poors some 'Iw HIq over elliott's head
16:10:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, well.
16:10:53 <oerjan> WHAT IS HAPPENING TO MY SPELING
16:11:03 <Ilari> BTW: APNIC cumulative delegations this year: http://imagebin.ca/view/R7vXhV.html
16:11:20 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, the constructed lang/words ones are probably the most convincingly awful.
16:11:43 <Vorpal> elliott, what competition is this?
16:11:57 <elliott> Vorpal: The Lyttle Lytton, the world's premier bad book-opening authoring contest.
16:12:15 <Vorpal> elliott, does it have to be on that form?
16:12:33 <elliott> Vorpal: (Unlike the rabble of talentless hacks calling themselves the Bulwer-Lytton contest, who only manage to spew out some billions of words and call that a bad opening, Lyttle Lytton entries must be short. And terrible>0
16:12:39 <elliott> And no, I'm just trying to aid Phantom_Hoover.
16:13:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, the tricky bit is making it amusingly awful but not making it satirical.
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16:14:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: There are no words for what I have just seen. So I made some up, and here they are:
16:14:21 <Sgeo> Quassel is a bit ugly, and you MUST resize stuff
16:14:26 <Sgeo> But it doesn't seem terrible
16:14:51 <Sgeo> Also, sudo apt-get uninstall ubuntu-desktop did not have the effect I was expectinng
16:15:10 <Sgeo> Nor did sudo apt-get autoremove afterwards
16:18:25 <Ilari> Yes, they delegated 6.76x/8 just this year... And the total amount of space remaining to them is about 5.73(3.19[present]+2.00[newblocks]+1.54[various]-1.00[setaside])x/8s.
16:19:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "Ah, poetic Paris: with its pâtés and beaujolais, tiramisu and au jus."
16:22:14 <fizzie> "Ei ole sanoja Englanti kielellä kertoa, mitä olen nähnyt, minkä vuoksi jäljellä tämä kirja suomeksi" -> "There are no words language English to tell, which is why there is left this book in Finnish", if I try to approximate the ungrammaticalness in it.
16:22:58 <fizzie> Whoops, I skipped the whole has-seen part.
16:23:03 <fizzie> That one is reasonably correct, though.
16:23:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Scaling Everest was, by far, the most amazing and transformative experience of my life. Unfortunately, this is a thesis on context-free grammars.
16:23:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I swear augur wrote that one.
16:23:31 <augur> what did i write? :o
16:23:36 <elliott> augur: "Scaling Everest was, by far, the most amazing and transformative experience of my life. Unfortunately, this is a thesis on context-free grammars."
16:23:52 <augur> i wish i had written that. :D
16:24:00 <oerjan> augur would never write a thesis on something that simple
16:24:08 <augur> oerjan: depends on what the question is
16:24:40 <elliott> Fukutsuru died in 2005 but his frozen sperm lived on for people’s benefit.
16:24:43 <elliott> you can't really beat that
16:24:48 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: that one clearly was by pikhq
16:25:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That Fukutsuru line was from WIKIPEDIA.
16:25:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's *still there*.
16:28:06 <Phantom_Hoover> '"Caramba!" exclaimed Diego de Fonseca, "a cucaracha has fallen onto the tortillas of my wife!"'
16:30:42 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, so "There are no words for what I have just seen, so I made some up, and here they are:"
16:31:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Hmm... Not sure.
16:31:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Gimme an hour or two to see if anything better pops into my head :P
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16:46:03 <Vorpal> elliott, err, Yudkowsky wrote fanfic!?
16:46:25 <elliott> Vorpal: Does-write; it doesn't show any signs of stopping and I'm quite some chapters behind. It is hilarious.
16:46:34 <Vorpal> elliott, is it bad or good?
16:46:36 <elliott> http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5782108/1/Harry_Potter_and_the_Methods_of_Rationality
16:46:43 <elliott> Vorpal: It is very, very good. And hilarious.
16:46:55 <elliott> (Well, okay, it's not all yuks, but it is partly yuks.)
16:47:08 <Vorpal> elliott, does it take things seriously, or does it make fun of the thing? Considering the title...
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16:53:52 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, incidentally, when does the 2011 competition close?
16:54:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Um, 2011, one would assume.
16:54:21 <elliott> "I will accept entries up to but not after 2011 April 15 at noon, Pacific Time."
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17:00:55 <elliott> Oh jesus christ, now reddit are masturbating over the fact that http://surfraw.alioth.debian.org/ was written by Julian Assange.
17:01:21 <elliott> YOU GUYS, WE LIKE JULIAN ASSANGE, AND GET THIS: BEFORE HE BECAME THE SELF-APPOINTED "PERSON WHO DOES VERY LITTLE EXCEPT BE A LIGHTNING ROD FOR WIKILEAKS", HE *WROTE SOME PROGRAMS OH MY FUCKING GOD*
17:04:37 <elliott> His ridiculous hair is CONSTANT.
17:08:18 <elliott> Anyone going on Minecraft?
17:14:28 <elliott> Ooh, fizzie's bunker has pretty.
17:17:04 <elliott> "After a lot of writing in Q10 on Windows, I got used to the typewriter sound it makes every time you press a key. At least for me it feels great to have this sort of sound feedback.
17:17:05 <elliott> On Linux on the other hand, I love writing it VIM, because of it's editing features. How could I add this functionality to VIM?
17:17:05 <elliott> Simply said, I want to play a sound every time I press a key in the insert mode."
17:17:08 <elliott> You can't make this shit up.
17:17:58 <Vorpal> elliott, who said that
17:18:06 <elliott> Vorpal: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4418364/how-can-i-make-vim-play-typewriter-sound-when-i-write-a-letter/4418605#4418605
17:18:10 <elliott> Vorpal: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4418364/how-can-i-make-vim-play-typewriter-sound-when-i-write-a-letter/
17:18:34 <Vorpal> elliott, presumably you could patch it to do that.. I mean, it shouldn't be too hard at all really
17:18:45 <elliott> Vorpal: It was solved in Vimscript, but that's not the point.
17:18:54 <elliott> [[Is why I love vim, because "crazy" and dare all other "freaks" are always ready to give them the answer, and "Vim" in turn serves as a backdrop to all this by having these endless possibilities. – user107745 6 hours ago]] <----- what
17:18:58 <Vorpal> and why god why indeed
17:19:14 <elliott> "Perhaps what you really want is an IBM Model M keyboard." "After buying $200 keyboard? Nothx :) – Darth 21 hours ago"
17:19:23 <elliott> Ooh, I bet it was a Logitech expensive-mush keyboard.
17:20:21 <elliott> "Redis without a Linux kernel - How to run Redis natively on Xen"
17:21:34 <Vorpal> elliott, xen actually runs below the dom0 in some senses
17:22:05 <elliott> Vorpal: I've just heard "Foo on Xen" quite a bit lately.
17:22:16 <elliott> Vorpal: Am I right in thinking that Xen's dom0 architecture is totally insane?
17:22:28 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't know the details
17:22:42 <Vorpal> elliott, but it seems probable
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18:00:23 <pikhq> elliott: It is completely insane.
18:00:58 <elliott> pikhq: CubeHash isn't an SHA-3 finalist :(
18:02:03 <elliott> pikhq: Meanwhile: Fragments from "WikiLeaks! The Musical.": http://www.mcsweeneys.net/2010/12/2greenman.html
18:02:20 <Vorpal> elliott, on what grounds?
18:02:32 <elliott> Vorpal: They don't state their reasons individualy.
18:02:44 <Vorpal> elliott, ah, but presumably technical reasons?
18:03:03 <elliott> Vorpal: The selection was challenging, because we had a strong field of fourteen hash algorithms remaining in the SHA-3 competition that were very strong contenders for the hash function standard. Security was our greatest concern, and we took this very seriously, but none of these candidates was clearly broken. However, it is meaningless to discuss the security of a hash function without relating security to performance, so in reality, NIST wan
18:03:03 <elliott> ted highly secure algorithms that also performed well. We preferred to be conservative about security, and in some cases did not select algorithms with exceptional performance, largely because something about them made us “nervous,” even though we knew of no clear attack against the full algorithm.
18:03:19 <elliott> Vorpal: tl;dr CubeHash isn't in because it isn't.
18:03:42 <Vorpal> elliott, was cubehash fast?
18:03:50 <elliott> Vorpal: It was parameterisable. But yes, it was fast.
18:04:21 <elliott> The SHA-3 contender was CubeHash 16/32, which is as fast as SHA-256 and SHA-512, sez djb.
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18:14:02 <pikhq> elliott: "Something about them made us 'nervous'"?
18:14:10 <pikhq> elliott: Damned stupid selection criterion.
18:14:21 <elliott> pikhq: They're just afraid of djb's BLACK STARE.
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18:34:23 <elliott> "On an i386 system with x86-64 kernel" What.
18:41:22 <elliott> pikhq: MAME is non-DFSG. Lame.
18:41:27 <elliott> pikhq: You should rewrite it.
18:50:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Not really.
18:50:10 <elliott> Vorpal: [[Also in 2007, the Open Group reached a binding legal agreement to prevent the German University of Kassel from using "UNIK" as its short form name.]]
18:50:42 <Phantom_Hoover> "There are no words for what I have just seen, so here are the ones I made up:"
18:51:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That one's not good.
18:53:03 <Phantom_Hoover> "There are no words for what I have just seen, so I made some up."?
18:53:27 <elliott> [[In 2004 a bootleg version of MAME was created, called '39-in-1' which ran on an Intel XScale processor. As of version 0.133u1, MAME also emulates this 'game', thus in essence, emulates itself.]]
18:54:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "There are no words for what I have just seen, so I made some up, and here they are:" is the last one you and I said.
18:54:04 <elliott> I'm still mulling it over though.
18:54:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm. Ordinarily, I'd go for compactness, but bumbling prose is good here.
18:56:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Let's make an end-of-book sentence! Dunno if that competition's being run this year, but let's do it anyway.
18:56:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: First thought: "And that was when I finally conceded that, yes, orang-utans probably *do* exist. Probably."
18:56:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: First thought: "And that was when I finally conceded that, yes, orang-utans *do* exist. Probably."
18:56:50 <pikhq> make: *** No rule to make target `1.2.mkv', needed by `all'. Stop.
18:56:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Follow-up to that opening sentence, laced with poorly-made up words?
18:56:58 <pikhq> There's a rule for %.mkv.
18:57:09 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure that matches 1.2.mkv.
18:57:13 <pikhq> What the hell, Make?
18:57:20 <elliott> pikhq: Show your Makefile; I've fixed problems like that before.
18:57:36 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/DJSX
18:57:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And that's when her furli'net finally absorbed my guarætïr, in a most hunji manner. At last, I was a virgin no more.
18:58:30 <elliott> pikhq: So, uh, do 1.2.mp4 1.2.ac3 1.2.... all exist?
18:58:34 <elliott> pikhq: Because if not, it won't count as an implicit rule.
18:58:53 <Phantom_Hoover> That would actually work with the opening, and reinforce the implication that this book was eyelash-wrenchingly awful.
18:58:55 <pikhq> ... Wait, %.title shouldn't be there.
18:59:00 <elliott> pikhq: (Imagine having a rule "%.o: %.s" and doing "make foo.o" when you have foo.c; you don't want it to try and make foo.s, you want it to say "Sorry, you don't have a rule to do that!")
18:59:38 <elliott> pikhq: ${<:%.mp4=%.ac3} is the same as $*.ac3
19:00:04 <elliott> pikhq: Also, make it a mkfile! Everyone loves mkfiles!
19:00:50 <elliott> pikhq: "2>&/dev/null" What.
19:01:22 <elliott> tccat -i ${DVDPATH} -T ${TITLE},-1 | tcextract -x ac3 -t vob -a 0 > %@
19:01:44 <elliott> tccat -i ${DVDPATH} -T ${TITLE},-1 | tcextract -x ps1 -t vob -a 33 | subtitle2vobsub -o ${<:%.idx=%} -i ${DVDPATH}/VIDEO_TS/VTS_`printf '%.2i\n' ${TITLE}`_0.IFO
19:01:53 <elliott> pikhq: Does the %.sid1.idx rule create %.sid1.sub too?
19:02:06 <elliott> %.sid1.idx %.sid1.sub: %.title
19:02:07 <elliott> tccat -i ${DVDPATH} -T ${TITLE},-1 | tcextract -x ps1 -t vob -a 33 | subtitle2vobsub -o ${<:%.idx=%} -i ${DVDPATH}/VIDEO_TS/VTS_`printf '%.2i\n' ${TITLE}`_0.IFO
19:02:10 <elliott> pikhq: Fixed that for you.
19:02:16 <elliott> (And remove the dependency-only rule.)
19:02:43 <pikhq> elliott: That does *not* actually work the way you think it does.
19:02:51 <elliott> pikhq: It doesn't? I've done it before and I swear it does.
19:03:01 <pikhq> elliott: Make will call that rule to make %.sid1.idx, and then to make %.sid1.sub.
19:03:14 <elliott> pikhq: Well that's stupid.
19:03:29 <elliott> pikhq: As well as using $*, I'd also unify the sid0 and sid1 rules, and just use "foo: VOB_A_PARAM=32 or 33". (With a better name.)
19:03:42 <elliott> Also I'm not sure why you're saying ${FOO}; $(FOO) is more conventional.
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19:07:43 <elliott> pikhq: Rewrite it in mk/rc!
19:09:56 <pikhq> Now, to figure out why it's still not making 1.2.mkv.
19:10:25 <elliott> pikhq: Rewrite it in mk/rc!
19:10:34 <elliott> pikhq: Or just use make -v.
19:11:16 <pikhq> -v is version info.
19:11:24 <pikhq> make -d is more helpful.
19:11:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it just me, or does WikiLeaks not actually have any leaked stuff on its site?
19:11:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://213.251.145.96/
19:11:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: See the links with dates below them.
19:12:07 <elliott> http://213.251.145.96/cablegate.html, http://213.251.145.96/file/wikileaks_archive.7z, http://213.251.145.96/iraq/diarydig/, http://213.251.145.96/iraq/diarydig/, http://www.collateralmurder.com/
19:12:45 <elliott> Not a very good link colour, admittedly.
19:14:49 <pikhq> It would appear to be *fucking retarded*.
19:15:11 <pikhq> "Hmm, I have an implicit rule without prereqs that gets me a prereq for my target. Well, fuck that."
19:15:59 <pikhq> ... I get the strong feeling that Make hates rules without prereqs.
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19:17:20 <elliott> pikhq: I've used it before! It's great!
19:17:23 <pikhq> Fuck it. Everything gets a prereq on $(DVDPATH).
19:17:35 <elliott> pikhq: I've used it before! It's great!
19:17:35 <pikhq> (it even makes sense!)
19:17:43 <elliott> pikhq: WHY DO YOU IGNORE ME
19:20:04 <pikhq> Does mk handle implicit rules without prereqs?
19:20:26 <pikhq> GAAAH WHY WON'T MAKE PROCESS THIS NOW.
19:20:38 <pikhq> IT SEEMS TO FAIL AT PREREQS.
19:20:40 <elliott> pikhq: Also you say $stem instead of $* and you can say $foo instead of $(foo) and also the whole body of rules is executed as one thing, so "cd" works.
19:20:44 <pikhq> YES, /dev/null EXISTS.
19:20:47 <elliott> pikhq: And also you can quiet an entire rule by using attributes.
19:21:03 <pikhq> IT REALLY, REALLY, REALLY FUCKING EXISTS.
19:21:59 <elliott> pikhq: Also mk has awesome shit:
19:22:00 <elliott> pikhq: P The characters after the P until the terminating : are taken as a program name. It will be invoked as rc –c prog 'arg1' 'arg2' and should return a null exit status if and only if arg1 is up to date with respect to arg2. Date stamps are still propagated in the normal way.
19:22:08 <elliott> pikhq: R The rule is a meta–rule using regular expressions. In the rule, % has no special meaning. The target is interpreted as a regular expression as defined in regexp(6). The prerequisites may contain references to subexpressions in form \n, as in the substitute command of sam(1).
19:22:15 <elliott> U The targets are considered to have been updated even if the recipe did not do so.
19:22:47 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/BjPa
19:23:00 <pikhq> This is what I've got right now, with 1.{1..7}.fuck touched.
19:23:01 <elliott> pikhq: http://swtch.com/plan9port/man/man1/mk.html Unix man page for mk.
19:23:16 <elliott> pikhq: All you have to do is "MKSHELL=$PLAN9/bin/rc" and it is wonderful!
19:23:25 <elliott> "Andrew Hume wrote mk for Tenth Edition Research Unix. It was later ported to Plan 9. This software is a port of the Plan 9 version back to Unix."
19:23:38 <elliott> pikhq: WHY ARE YOU SO TIED TO YOUR EVIL BUILD TOOL
19:24:07 <pikhq> elliott: Honestly, I just want to know *why* this doesn't work. And then I will probably switch it over to mk.
19:24:18 <elliott> pikhq: I've debugged similar problems before, but I forgot how to fix them.
19:24:36 <pikhq> MAKE, YOU SIMPLETON, 1.2.fuck EXISTS.
19:24:48 <elliott> It's something else it doesn't like.
19:25:27 <pikhq> It's somehow not finding an implict rule for 1.2.mkv.
19:25:27 <elliott> pikhq: Right now, I've half-convinced myself that the best build system is a "memoise" command that runs the command given in its arguments if and only if its dependencies have changed, where the dependencies are determined by tracing the program the first time. (This actually exists, it's called memoize.py. But I think it needs tweaking to be truly perfect.)
19:25:58 <elliott> pikhq: Then just a bunch of canned commands like "CC() { echo CC "$@"; $CC $CFLAGS $LDFLAGS "$@" }"
19:26:16 <pikhq> Okay, it disliked my %.sid0.sub rule.
19:27:59 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> "There are no words for what I have just seen, so here are the ones I made up:" <-- there *were* no words in that case
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19:30:13 <elliott> Vorpal: that's intentional.
19:31:36 <elliott> pikhq: http://web.archive.org/web/20070612145920/http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/~billm/memoize.html
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19:34:51 <hagb4rd> hey guys! using the powershell?..question: is there a way to br0wse thr0ugh the namespaces of the attached .net assemblies? i'd like to see which classes, enums exist in specific namespace.. i use get-member or get-childitem on objects, but it doesn't seem to work with namespaces^^ help please..
19:35:00 <elliott> hagb4rd: (1) nobody here uses windows
19:35:08 <elliott> hagb4rd: (2) "br0wse thr0ugh"? what are you, 14?
19:36:56 <Vorpal> elliott, at the very thing you just responded to
19:37:04 <elliott> Vorpal: powershell is this thing for windows.
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19:37:14 <Vorpal> elliott, utter astonishment at his answer to your reply to him
19:37:24 <elliott> i think he was being slightly sarcastic.
19:37:38 <Vorpal> elliott, s/ever/even/?
19:37:40 <tswett> is a very useful command.
19:37:59 <elliott> Vorpal: powershell is actually kinda cool; it's like sh but object-oriented (admittedly it's .NET), so rich objects pass between the | pipes and get formatted automatically or customly depending on where you feed them. but, uh, it's still .NET.
19:38:59 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah, it's .NET, also it is bloated. Every time you like it, a bunny named glenda becomes sad. Or something.
19:39:12 <elliott> Vorpal: insert middle finger
19:39:24 <Vorpal> elliott, that sounds rude to the bunny
19:39:34 <coppro> the general model is actually pretty cool
19:39:59 <elliott> hmm, is stat64 just what's called instead of stat on x86-64 kernels?
19:40:23 <Vorpal> elliott, hm, isn't stat64 for large file support on 32-bit?
19:41:00 <elliott> os.system('strace -f -o %s -e trace=open,stat64,exit_group %s' % (outfile, cmd))
19:41:04 <elliott> wonder why stat's not there
19:41:21 <Vorpal> elliott, which is kind of on all the time on 64-bit. So presumably it only needs one system call. No idea what it might be named though
19:41:31 <Vorpal> elliott, where is that from?
19:42:22 <Vorpal> elliott, very strange then
19:43:12 <elliott> hmm, tracing for stat seems to pick up lstat too
19:43:12 <Vorpal> elliott, in fact, shouldn't it trace all the stat variants
19:44:00 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't know.
19:45:18 <Vorpal> elliott, does it track deps properly too?
19:45:46 <elliott> to find out what files the program uses :)
19:46:27 <Vorpal> elliott, can it do conditional compilation. Sometimes having something like --enable-large-optional-feature-that-depends-on-uncommon-stuff is useful. (with a shorter name preferably!)
19:46:45 <Vorpal> doesn't need to be fancy, just that really
19:46:49 <hagb4rd> elliott droog .. im 29! i mentioned and am really sorry about my poor english.. it's a pity, because i really like this chan and conversations here are kind of inspiring.. but with my couple of words i really feel a little like a stupid child in here.. i try to do sth about it.. sry
19:47:01 <elliott> hagb4rd: it's ok, i'm just an asshole
19:47:12 <Vorpal> elliott, hm interesting (that code)
19:47:49 <elliott> Vorpal: of course you'd probably prefer to use a nicer shell... say rc
19:47:53 <elliott> Vorpal: if($poop) memoize.py foo bar baz
19:47:56 <elliott> (where $poop is true or false)
19:48:11 <elliott> Vorpal: of course you'd want scaffolding around all this to make it more automatic
19:48:11 <Vorpal> elliott, also if I'm a developer I would probably prefer to write some code to make it remember between build runs
19:48:16 <elliott> and memoize itself isn't maintained
19:48:17 <Vorpal> elliott, maybe just a wrapper script
19:48:36 <Vorpal> elliott, if memoize still works, I don't really see any issue
19:48:40 <elliott> Vorpal: um it does remember
19:48:42 <elliott> Vorpal: it saves it to a file
19:49:00 <Vorpal> elliott, so you don't invoke the same script the next time you build? but another one?
19:49:22 <elliott> Vorpal: no, memoize.py just looks to see if the dependencies file is there and goes, "oh look, it is" and uses it.
19:49:34 <elliott> you can also use it from python
19:49:56 <Vorpal> elliott, well, lets say I have conditional compilation for optional feature. Do I run ./build.py <list of options or such> every time?
19:50:19 <Vorpal> elliott, can I make it just do ./build.py after that basically
19:50:23 <elliott> Vorpal: Um, ./configure --additional-pylons --butt-tastic would presumably create config.sh.
19:50:32 <elliott> Then ./build would do ". config.sh" or the like.
19:50:46 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:50:47 <elliott> (Substitute equivalent things for Python, and also s/sh/yaml/ or s/sh/xml/ or whatever the hell you want to store configuration in.)
19:51:02 <Vorpal> elliott, any parallel support?
19:51:14 <Vorpal> equiv of -j2 or such I mean
19:51:39 <elliott> Vorpal: Um, it's just a function call. In non-Python usage, it's just a process called once for each command. Anyway the script is tiny, read it yourself ffs: http://web.archive.org/web/20070622221648/www.eecs.berkeley.edu/~billm/memoize.py
19:51:46 <elliott> The answer is no, but I'm not telling anyone to use memoize.py.
19:51:51 <elliott> I'm just saying it's a better design than mk.
19:52:02 <Vorpal> elliott, so -j is basically the only thing missing to make it perfect
19:52:10 <elliott> Vorpal: No, more is missing.
19:52:17 <elliott> Because you'd have to write ./configure manually and the like.
19:52:37 <elliott> Vorpal: A way to use it more efficiently without having to write your script in Python? Some "memoize" function that talks to a pipe it has, rather than making a bunch of processes.
19:52:43 <Vorpal> elliott, idea: autoconf - automake + memoize = what?
19:52:57 <elliott> Vorpal: Um, = autoconf is still terrible.
19:53:15 <Vorpal> elliott, also probably a pain to get that working
19:53:49 <elliott> $ strace bin/uname >/dev/null
19:53:49 <elliott> execve("bin/uname", ["bin/uname"], [/* 35 vars */]) = 0
19:53:49 <elliott> arch_prctl(ARCH_SET_FS, 0x7fffc7abfc50) = 0
19:53:49 <elliott> uname({sys="Linux", node="dinky", ...}) = 0
19:54:06 <Vorpal> elliott, still, -j is actually very nice when building something large. Not sure how you can make that work for first build easily
19:54:12 <ais523> elliott: autoconf is perfectly capable of memoizing too; it doesn't by default because people kept transferring the cache files between computers
19:54:53 <Vorpal> elliott, memoize could easily -j for builds where it already know the deps, but for initial build I don't see how it could possibly do that
19:54:54 <elliott> ais523: I'd expect ignoring the context and replying while ignoring pertinent details like ".py" from Vorpal, not you ...
19:54:56 <elliott> Vorpal: The first build it ... might ... work. The problem is of course that the dependency information is implicit in the ordering until it's calculated.
19:55:13 <elliott> Vorpal: if your linking phase fails because some object files aren't there, the script could take that into account
19:55:21 <Vorpal> elliott, which kind of defeats the point of -j for anyone but a developer
19:55:34 <Vorpal> elliott, well sure, but what is linking in general
19:55:46 <elliott> Vorpal: well, it's irrelevant... cc tries to open all these object files
19:55:55 <elliott> the script goes "ah! I'll try again when those files come into existence"
19:56:33 <Vorpal> elliott, what about building a tool used to build other files? Example: ick builds oil which is used to generate another c file which will be compiled later
19:57:14 <elliott> Vorpal: you know what the perfect build system is?
19:57:22 <elliott> ghc --make src/Main.hs -o foo
19:57:39 <Vorpal> elliott, yes indeed. You can make very good language-specific build systems
19:57:52 <Vorpal> elliott, erlang has a good one too for example. But well, they are language specific.
19:58:04 <elliott> Vorpal: good! who wants to use another crappy language anyway
19:59:11 <Vorpal> elliott, it does become a problem for a mixed language project
19:59:22 <elliott> Vorpal: *a crappy project!
19:59:33 <Vorpal> elliott, like... ghc itself?
20:00:55 <Vorpal> (I'm 99% certain that parts of ghc runtime stuff, such as GC, isn't written in haskell.)
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20:07:15 <elliott> ais523: you know scapegoat?
20:10:42 <Vorpal> elliott, the tree structure?
20:10:56 <Vorpal> elliott, scapegoat tree
20:11:00 <Vorpal> elliott, a data structure
20:11:21 <Vorpal> elliott, I asked because it was unclear to me what you meant
20:12:35 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:12:59 -!- augur has joined.
20:13:52 <elliott> (message (buffer-string)) <-- anyone who can make that elisp not a horrible hack gets points
20:13:57 <elliott> (must go to stdout when using emacs --batch)
20:14:03 <elliott> (don't care what it does when X is there)
20:14:14 <elliott> (or, anything but --batch really)
20:14:56 <elliott> well okay so that does to stderr
20:15:02 <elliott> I've tried (write-file "/dev/stdout")
20:17:06 <quintopia> what's the proper to display a constantly changing file in a terminal in such a way that the display automatically updates when the file changes?
20:17:35 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
20:17:56 <elliott> quintopia: um, tail -f if all that happens is appending
20:18:19 <quintopia> elliott: entire file contents get replace
20:18:28 <elliott> quintopia: does it need to be immediate?
20:18:56 <elliott> quintopia: sucks to be you, write your own
20:19:09 <elliott> Vorpal: wow, i had no idea watch did that.
20:19:14 <elliott> Vorpal: i've always just used clear in a loop with sleep :)
20:19:31 <elliott> Vorpal: watch seems to change 0.001 to 0.1 :P
20:20:48 <Vorpal> elliott, watch is also linux specific iirc
20:20:57 <Vorpal> elliott, at least watch means something very very different on *BSD
20:21:13 <Vorpal> (something to do with tty snooping iirc)
20:21:23 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah bsd watch is more fun!
20:21:36 <quintopia> so it's not really feasible to do it without polling, and as such, the best method is to continuously check the last write of the file, and refresh the display when it changes?
20:22:11 <elliott> quintopia: you can do it without polling.
20:22:16 <elliott> but it would involve coding.
20:22:27 <elliott> quintopia: what you said is pointless, though
20:22:29 <Vorpal> quintopia, gamin or inotify yeah
20:22:32 <elliott> no need to check for last write
20:22:49 <Vorpal> elliott, depends on size of file
20:22:50 <elliott> quintopia: "watch -n 0.1 cat foo" should do fine.
20:23:29 <quintopia> elliott: "watch -n 0.1 clear;cat foo"?
20:23:41 <elliott> quintopia: when i say something, i mean it.
20:23:44 <Vorpal> also it is not a shell syntax
20:24:02 <Vorpal> elliott, "did this base64 encoded DVD DL iso just change" <-- cat is no longer instant. But then that is 1) useless to watch for 2) doubtful it would fit on screen anyway
20:24:18 <quintopia> i assumed you meant it, but didn't know if you meant it to clear :D
20:24:33 <Vorpal> also 3) why the heck did you base64 encode the iso ANYWAY?
20:24:48 <elliott> Stallman's "The Right to Read", gzipped: http://nullprogram.com/projects/pngarch/right-to-read-gz.png and the program to extract it: http://nullprogram.com/projects/pngarch/files/pngarch-0.2.png
20:24:54 <elliott> now to rewrite that in haskell because of NIH!
20:25:26 <Vorpal> elliott, uh, how do you run the outer one?
20:26:06 <Vorpal> elliott, how do you actually execute the program to extract it?
20:26:17 <elliott> Vorpal: by using PNG Archiver to extract the PNG Archiver source, duh!
20:26:28 <elliott> Vorpal: (try using your favourite OS's lazy evaluation features)
20:26:33 <Vorpal> elliott, and where can I get png archiver to bootstrap this
20:26:38 <Vorpal> elliott, if you see what I mean
20:26:49 <elliott> Vorpal: http://nullprogram.com/projects/pngarch/files/pngarch-0.2.png
20:26:59 <quintopia> shouldn't "watch -n 0.1 tail foo" print the last 10 lines of foo every 0.1?
20:27:01 <Vorpal> elliott, you are not helpful.
20:27:27 <Vorpal> quintopia, I believe it should, assuming your terminal is larger than 11 lines (since watch adds a line at the top)
20:27:31 <elliott> it just isn't changing, so it looks the same
20:27:42 <Vorpal> quintopia, watch itself clears
20:27:48 <Vorpal> quintopia, so it looks static
20:27:56 <quintopia> elliott: "foo" in this case is this channel log, and that's irrelevant since nothing at all was displayed
20:28:05 <elliott> quintopia: um, you are on linux yes
20:28:21 <elliott> quintopia: does "tail file" work
20:28:39 <Vorpal> quintopia, does it work if you remove watch -n 0.1? I believe stderr will not be visible
20:28:58 <elliott> The -d or --differences flag will highlight the differences between
20:28:58 <elliott> successive updates. Using --differences=cumulative makes highlighting
20:28:58 <elliott> "sticky", presenting a running display of all positions that have ever
20:28:58 <elliott> changed. The -t or --no-title option turns off the header showing the
20:28:58 <elliott> interval, command, and current time at the top of the display, as well
20:28:59 <elliott> as the following blank line. The -b or --beep option causes the com‐
20:29:01 <elliott> mand to beep if it has a non-zero exit.
20:29:22 <elliott> Note that command is given to "sh -c" which means that you may need to
20:29:22 <elliott> use extra quoting to get the desired effect. You can disable this with
20:29:22 <elliott> the -x or --exec option, which passes the command to exec(2) instead.
20:29:38 <Vorpal> elliott, my watch don't accept fractional time
20:29:52 <Vorpal> oh wait, it does, but only in current locale
20:29:55 <elliott> Vorpal: mine's made out of quartz
20:30:23 <elliott> Vorpal: am i a weird person if I like mail(1)?
20:30:38 <Vorpal> elliott, depends. If you like it for mailing from shell script: no
20:30:50 <Vorpal> elliott, if you like it for interactive usage? maaaybe
20:30:56 <elliott> Vorpal: actually I'm considering trying out nmh
20:31:18 <elliott> although really, it isn't unixy *enough*; why should i have to run a command to view an email when I have cat? :)
20:32:08 <quintopia> it's really amusing to "watch" this channel :P
20:32:18 <Vorpal> elliott, because they all go in the same file. Also you need locking to avoid collision with the MTA if you try to delete a mail
20:32:31 <elliott> Vorpal: don't all go in one file with Maildir!
20:32:35 <Vorpal> quintopia, there tail -f works fine
20:32:39 <elliott> quintopia: but your IRC client does that
20:32:50 <Vorpal> elliott, still needs locking for some operations iirc?
20:32:50 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway the backing storage is irrelevant, if the mail client maintains its own
20:32:54 <elliott> which MH does as far as i know
20:33:08 <Vorpal> elliott, still it needs to *fetch* mail from somewhere
20:33:13 <elliott> what, vrms sets up a monthly cron job to tell root about non-free software installed
20:33:35 <quintopia> does tail -f auto-truncate lines further up than 10? i thought it just kept appending to output...
20:33:44 <Vorpal> elliott, such as maildir or mail files or pop or smtp. And there you need some sort of locking for most of the file based ones.
20:33:55 <elliott> Vorpal: So? that has nothing to do with the interface.
20:33:56 <Vorpal> and protocol code for the network based ones
20:34:07 <elliott> Vorpal: there's no reason the mail agent can't maintain a directory $mail
20:34:12 <elliott> Vorpal: "cat $mail/inbox/some-identifier" :P
20:34:24 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed, but will you manually pull the mail?
20:34:37 <elliott> Vorpal: no, you'd use a cron job or any other method
20:34:41 <elliott> push mail, if you can get it
20:34:57 <Vorpal> elliott, then you need locking to avoid collision as far as I know
20:35:09 <elliott> what relevance does this have at *all*
20:35:50 <Vorpal> elliott, so how does using cat, rm and so on ensure proper locking?
20:36:02 <elliott> Vorpal: ok, quote the line where i said rm
20:36:16 <Vorpal> elliott, well I assumed that, since it is more unixy
20:36:27 <Vorpal> elliott, or do you accept mail-rm or such?
20:37:07 <Vorpal> elliott, so how will you remove mails you want to delete from that directory
20:38:21 <elliott> i think we both have no idea what this conversation is about any more
20:47:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, where is fungot?
20:47:50 <Vorpal> elliott, question about kitten.
20:48:54 <Vorpal> elliott, how will you handle stopping some processes when switching from AC to battery. Such as cron, (no one wants updatedb while on battery!).
20:49:32 <elliott> Vorpal: what do you mean, how?
20:50:15 <Vorpal> elliott, well, will you chmod -x the script and such. And what about preventing it from starting when booting on battery?
20:50:28 <elliott> Vorpal: The important question is this: How do you accomplish it now?
20:50:30 <Vorpal> elliott, will you run some stuff before it can start to chmod -x it if on battery, otherwise chmod +x
20:50:46 <Vorpal> elliott, I believe ubuntu has some magic for it. Considering it does work that way for me
20:50:59 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, that's not exactly very precise.
20:51:35 <Vorpal> elliott, seems it does it by anacron
20:51:51 <elliott> Vorpal: No reason you couldn't accomplish that with plain cron, no?
20:52:01 <elliott> Or, you know, just run anacron.
20:52:30 <Vorpal> elliott, actually.... it runs a shell script on the relevant acpi events, which tells anacron to enable/disable
20:52:51 <elliott> Vorpal: "Do that, then" (except s/anacron/whatever you use to handle updatedb and the like/)
20:53:15 <Vorpal> elliott, but how does that solve it for booting?
20:53:30 <Vorpal> elliott, I know it skips it while booting, but I can't find how
20:53:49 <Vorpal> elliott, also I know it skips "mounted too many times"-fsck if on battery
20:54:16 <elliott> Vorpal: That's irrelevant on JFS.
20:54:31 <elliott> Since fsck takes <1s ("nothing wrong") to maybe 2-3s ("bad shit").
20:56:33 -!- zzo38 has joined.
20:57:24 <zzo38> Is it possible to do 3D modeling with METAFONT?
20:57:37 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
20:58:13 <elliott> zzo38: I don't know, but ... let's not find out.
20:59:01 <elliott> someone rename the Howduzitwerk section on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Runespells or I'll die.
21:00:26 <zzo38> elliott: Can't you do it yourself?
21:00:40 <elliott> i have no idea what to call it
21:01:03 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:01:53 <Deewiant> elliott: "Overview" or something.
21:02:21 <elliott> exec emacs -Q --batch --script /dev/tty/3 3<<EOF
21:02:25 <elliott> Can't believe that actually works.
21:02:40 <zzo38> Can any similar programs to METAFONT do 3D modeling? Might it be possible to use specials in METAFONT to make a external program combine the flat pictures into a 3D model?
21:03:32 <zzo38> elliott: That's what I thought. How can /dev/tty/3 work?
21:06:09 -!- quintopia has joined.
21:07:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm. I don't actually know the details of METAFONT in the first place...
21:08:33 <Deewiant> Where's the minecraft server used by y'all?
21:11:33 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, do you know something like this? METAFONT can do drawing by pen, fill shapes, and algebraic equations. You can also do for loops and macros and that stuff.
21:13:14 <elliott> Deewiant: You're Finnish, you'll get in no problem at all.
21:13:28 <elliott> Deewiant: The rest of us have to go through a back-breaking course.
21:14:16 <elliott> Deewiant: Also, if you go within a 1 km^2 radius of Vorpal's house, expect to replace things that break randomly.
21:14:50 <Deewiant> Is that a natural phenomenon, bug, or just Vorpal?
21:15:09 <elliott> Deewiant: I may be exaggerating slightly. (But it's just Vorpal.)
21:15:15 <elliott> quintopia: Vertical boat elevator, for one.
21:15:19 <elliott> If you steer at all it breaks.
21:15:39 <elliott> Deewiant: Oh, and the Temple of Doom is mandatory.
21:15:48 <quintopia> sounds easy enough to avoid. who needs steering?
21:16:06 <elliott> Deewiant: (And health is disabled, so the purifying lava baths can last even longer.)
21:16:07 <zzo38> Did Indiana Jones ever use a magic trunk?
21:17:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Deewiant, I demand that I be allowed to show you around.
21:17:25 <Vorpal> <elliott> Deewiant: Also, if you go within a 1 km^2 radius of Vorpal's house, expect to replace things that break randomly. <-- now you are exaggerating.
21:17:48 <elliott> Deewiant: Don't let him show you around IT'S A TRAP.
21:18:17 <Deewiant> What's the worst that could happen
21:18:23 <Vorpal> elliott, no, I meant in the other part. The only place I require breaking of stuff due to bugs is the boatlevator, and it is clearly signed as buggy due to MP bugs
21:18:32 <elliott> Deewiant: Suffocating inside a stone block!
21:18:40 <Vorpal> elliott, other than that only for carelessness or maliciousness
21:19:07 <Deewiant> elliott: I.e. death, something which has no consequences? :-P
21:19:12 <Vorpal> elliott, I never asked for replacement at the underground dock for example
21:19:24 <elliott> Deewiant: You'd lose all your inventory! Also, no, no death, health is disabled, remember? You can just /spawn or /home. :P
21:19:36 <elliott> But still, think of the horror.
21:20:05 <elliott> Deewiant: Dude, our primary method of transportation is high in the sky.
21:20:05 <Deewiant> And with no inventory to lose it's no consequences. :-P
21:20:20 <Deewiant> Maybe you should rethink the method, then
21:20:22 <elliott> Deewiant: Also it broke my top-altitude to bedrock stairs and they're beautiful.
21:20:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Deewiant, well, anyway, when you spawn, don't move and set your render distance to "far".
21:20:37 <Vorpal> Deewiant, until fizzie widened it from 1 wide to 3 wide
21:20:47 <Vorpal> Deewiant, now it is just elliott who fails to walk on it
21:20:49 <elliott> We should have Creeper Wednesdays or something where monsters are turned on. :p
21:21:11 <oerjan> zzo38: well i don't know but i think you could say he once survived by _not_ being the one to use a magic trunk (the ark)
21:21:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, well, the stretch from you to Mt. Hoover is 1 wide.
21:21:39 <elliott> We should turn on monsters but not health, just to have helpless creepers running about, exploding to no avail.
21:21:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, because you haven't fixed it? I did most of the stretch to me, fizzie most of the stretch from spawn to him and to nailor
21:22:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, both of us said "uh, lets make PH do this" basically
21:22:15 <elliott> Nobody goes to Mount Hoover that way :P
21:22:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, which is why we left it to you
21:22:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Not as slow as walking.
21:22:54 <Vorpal> bug of some sort, they are slower than in single player
21:23:10 <elliott> Maybe we should just tell Deewiant the address, considering he has Finn Privileges. :p
21:23:23 <Vorpal> elliott, I never heard of that
21:23:28 <Vorpal> elliott, wait for ineiros
21:23:37 <elliott> Vorpal: fizzie, ineiros, nailor -- see the pattern!
21:23:57 <Vorpal> elliott, me, you, Phantom_Hoover. 3 other people
21:24:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not even same language group
21:25:36 <Deewiant> I doubt a Hungarian would get in on the premise of having a mother tongue in the same language group
21:25:55 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, me, you, Phantom_Hoover. 3 other people
21:25:58 <elliott> Those three were there first. p
21:26:14 <elliott> And fizzie said it was basically a .fi server before you infiltrated.
21:26:53 <Deewiant> I'm also on that other channel with ineiros and fizzie.
21:27:16 <elliott> Deewiant: Oh, and Vorpal saying "t" constantly is his Tourette's. Please be respectful of his condition.
21:27:21 <Deewiant> And based on idle time, I think that ineiros may have gone to bed about 2 minutes before I asked.
21:27:40 <Vorpal> Deewiant, no I say t because the thing doesn't echo locally, so good lag check
21:27:42 <elliott> Deewiant: Do you know of a domain name that consists of a with three numbers after it, ending in a generic TLD for non-profits?
21:27:46 <Vorpal> Deewiant, since the server goes down every now and then
21:27:54 <elliott> Also the last two digits are equal.
21:28:13 <Vorpal> Deewiant, and since t is talk, tt<enter> = send a t. which is fast
21:28:49 <elliott> Deewiant: You can guess three digits? :P
21:28:49 <Vorpal> elliott, Phantom_Hoover says t a lot too
21:29:09 <elliott> Deewiant: I was using it to verify if you already knew most of the address. :p
21:29:10 <Deewiant> Appears to be running Apache with some kind of default index.
21:29:32 <elliott> Deewiant: You know how some servers have ports they run on?
21:29:51 <elliott> Well, it is feasible that one of them would have a port denoted by the maximum value of an unsigned char, in decimal, followed by the last digit of that value, plus one.
21:30:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Is that not a valid port according to the relevant specifications?
21:30:12 <Deewiant> I would guess that all servers have at least one port that they run on.
21:30:19 <Vorpal> elliott, I wonder what ineiros will say
21:30:22 <elliott> Deewiant: Not if they're magical.
21:31:01 <Deewiant> Also, UCHAR_MAX depends on CHAR_BIT, at least. :-P
21:31:20 <elliott> Deewiant: Well, hey, I wasn't specifying anything, I was just SAYING!
21:31:28 <elliott> I take no responsibility for my information, which is factual.
21:32:19 <elliott> Sheesh, this business is too cutthroat. I think I'm leaving the fact dissemination industry.
21:33:27 <Deewiant> Yes, it's much safer to just lie about everything.
21:33:49 <tswett> `echo hey, is there an echo bot in here?
21:34:00 <HackEgo> hey, is there an echo bot in here?
21:34:38 <elliott> hm is that the name, i forget
21:34:58 <elliott> Deewiant: I feel like my services aren't being appreciated.
21:35:41 <Deewiant> I gave you the word "overview" earlier, does that cover it?
21:36:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Deewiant, have you figured out the Secret Address of the Esoteric Order of Minecraft?
21:36:21 <Deewiant> Probably. I haven't tried it yet, though.
21:37:01 <elliott> Deewiant: Did you just guess??
21:37:36 <elliott> Deewiant: I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
21:37:52 <elliott> Deewiant: I guess the ways of Finns are not to be ken by mortal men.
21:37:59 <Deewiant> Then don't bring it up as subject matter.
21:38:10 <elliott> Hey, that rhymes. The ways of Finns / are not to be ken / by mortal men. Can I get a payment for *that*, then?
21:38:57 <oerjan> you need to translate it into grammatically correct finnish first. while still rhyming.
21:39:16 <elliott> oerjan: Bork bork bork / bork bork bork / bork bork bork. wait that's swedish
21:39:35 <elliott> oerjan: Paaïetta paaïetta paaïetta / paaïetta paaïetta paaïetta / paaïetta paaïetta paaïetta.
21:39:46 <Deewiant> It wasn't correct English, why bother making it correct Finnish
21:40:24 <oerjan> `translatefromto fi en paaietta
21:40:34 <elliott> oerjan: while my translation was accurate, it was not correct.
21:40:54 <oerjan> i suspected that, with the ï
21:42:17 <elliott> <Deewiant> Not Finnish. :-P
21:42:22 <elliott> Reporters report that Deewiant may be "not Finnish".
21:42:36 <elliott> This is supposedly based on a statement by Deewiant himself where he reportedly says that he is, reportedly, "not Finnish".
21:43:00 <elliott> ais523: Are you actually there? :P
21:47:16 <elliott> Big Minecraft party, in the sky.
21:47:23 <elliott> (this is my fanon and I'm sticking to it)
21:49:12 * Phantom_Hoover decides to build a cloud with his titanic cloth surplus.
21:53:54 <oerjan> just don't lett the cloud hit any icebergs
21:54:21 * oerjan strangles his spelling
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22:10:31 <Gregor> `addquote <l4rk> your premise to falsify "false" is false
22:10:32 <HackEgo> 248) <l4rk> your premise to falsify "false" is false
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23:07:26 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> http://ompldr.org/vNmpiYw/2010-12-12_21.44.23.png
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23:28:55 <Vorpal> elliott, quite small window he plays in
23:28:59 <Vorpal> elliott, not near maximised
23:29:03 <Vorpal> elliott, or he has a small screen
23:29:59 <Vorpal> elliott, I should get a dual screen setup again, so I can post HUGE screenshots
23:30:50 <elliott> Vorpal: erm 1366x768 is the size of my display
23:33:02 <Vorpal> elliott, I have 1680x1050 on this
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23:33:24 <elliott> Vorpal: Yours isn't a laptop.
23:34:21 <Vorpal> elliott, 24" laptop would be annoying
23:34:55 <elliott> Vorpal: 1680x1050 at 24" is terrible ppi.
23:35:04 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, maybe it is 22"
23:35:30 <Vorpal> elliott, slightly over 50 cm diagonally
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23:42:44 <Vorpal> elliott, seems sprunge runs on google app engine
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23:43:05 <Vorpal> https://github.com/rupa/sprunge (linked from sprunge.us)
23:43:21 <elliott> don't see what's wrong with that :)
23:43:32 <Vorpal> elliott, nothing, just interesting
23:43:49 <Vorpal> elliott, and explains why it is never laggy
23:43:55 <elliott> http://un.ix.io/ this is him
23:44:04 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah, but it's not as good as MY pastebin!1111
23:44:12 <elliott> which i appear to be turning into some kind of mutant object database in my head
23:44:16 <elliott> Vorpal: /home/elliott/code/...
23:44:29 <elliott> Vorpal: well fizzie's does both url forwarding and pasting so why not EXTEND THAT
23:44:30 <Vorpal> elliott, second system syndrome
23:44:37 <elliott> Vorpal: actually, first system syndrome :D
23:44:56 <Vorpal> elliott, for you yes, but second compared to exisiting ones
23:45:10 <Vorpal> elliott, that link: bash revision control
23:45:27 <elliott> Vorpal: technically i wrote the perfect pastebin earlier which used *your* editor configured how *you* want it to display the file, in a manner tuned to your OS
23:45:33 <elliott> Vorpal: but everyone whined that ZOMG IT OPENS A NEW WINDOW
23:45:42 <Vorpal> elliott, I like it showing in browser
23:45:51 <elliott> yep, 's 'cuz you're stupid!
23:45:59 <Vorpal> elliott, everyone wanted that though
23:46:11 <elliott> Vorpal: no, ais523 loved it :P
23:46:20 <Vorpal> elliott, but what about Gregor? or fizzie?
23:46:39 <Vorpal> elliott, see, they were just to polite to complain!
23:46:55 <elliott> "Made this little wrapper around the delightful automeme service for easy spamming with irssi. I have /meme aliased to /exec -o meme and it annoys the hell out of esch."
23:46:58 <Gregor> How exactly does it use YOUR editor configured how YOU want it.
23:47:08 <elliott> Gregor: Because it tells the browser to open the file in the appropriate application.
23:47:15 <elliott> Which is set to your favourite editor for that type of file.
23:47:23 <Vorpal> elliott, wtf is "flattr"? I saw a link saying "flattr this", "twit this" and "dig this" I seen, but this is a new one
23:47:41 <elliott> Vorpal: it's this thing the guys behind tpb made i think ... at least i hear it was them
23:47:52 <Vorpal> elliott, yet another social network?
23:47:58 <Vorpal> quintopia, so it said in the wallops a while ago
23:48:04 <Vorpal> -tomaw/Wallops- Services will be offline for a few minutes while we fix some database issues.
23:48:06 <Vorpal> -tomaw/Wallops- Channel ops may wish to op themselves in case they need ops during the downtime
23:48:07 <elliott> Vorpal: no, i forget what it is
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23:48:15 <elliott> Vorpal: micropayments, it seems
23:48:22 <elliott> Flattr is a micropayment system - more specifically, a microdonation system - that launched publicly in March 2010 on an invite-only basis[1], and then opened up to the public in August 2010[2].
23:48:22 <elliott> Flattr Button (does not actually Flattr this page)
23:48:22 <elliott> Flattr is a project started by Peter Sunde and Linus Olsson. Users are able to pay a small amount every month (minimum 2 euros) and then click Flattr buttons on sites to share out the money they paid in among those sites, kind of like an Internet tip jar.
23:48:25 <Vorpal> elliott, hm, bad thing to click on such a link thne
23:48:40 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, it SUCKS YOUR MONEY OUT AUTOMATICALLY WITHOUT EVEN CONFIRMING
23:48:44 <quintopia> kind of annoying in channels requiring registration to talk :/
23:49:05 <Vorpal> quintopia, use a bouncer!
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23:49:29 <quintopia> Vorpal: dunno anything about those
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23:49:48 <Vorpal> elliott, this looks interesting https://github.com/joelthelion/autojump/wiki
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23:52:32 <Deewiant> elliott: Is that server new enough to have biomes or is it all grassy?
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23:53:21 <Vorpal> Deewiant, biomes in far out areas
23:53:33 <Vorpal> Deewiant, but older generated in the areas around spawn
23:54:00 <Vorpal> Deewiant, one place biomes start is just beyond mt. hoover
23:54:20 <Vorpal> Deewiant, you get strange jagged areas along the edges sometimes
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