< 1292284834 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is it silly < 1292284859 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well it is clearly a link to the FUTURE < 1292284870 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: because it's an empty promise? < 1292284876 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not going to be a useful link for ages, so it's rather pointless < 1292284913 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Your IRC client must have some way to enter another command to IRC server though, it depends on the client. The FLUSH command I implemented can take only one parameter anyways. < 1292284965 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The cost of linkifying is low compared to the potential uses; it might be unlinkified for a long time after the page goes up, which is a greater loss < 1292285051 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders making a joke page for Feather < 1292285247 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'''Feather''' is like... ''whoa,'' man... < 1292285255 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: RED IS UGLY < 1292285256 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is writing now < 1292285267 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Use custom CSS. < 1292285273 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: ;_; < 1292285278 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: psht, if you weren't an admin i'd ask for it to be deleted :D < 1292285349 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i _am not_ an admin < 1292285389 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh, indeed :D < 1292285470 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm how many characters do you need to store an sha512 digest < 1292285484 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :64, it seems < 1292285784 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there anything wrong with the C-LONG beer program? < 1292285894 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And do you have anything to say about TeXnicard anyways? < 1292286041 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: that was some fast editing < 1292286075 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i just clicked the red feather link and saw you'd already created the page :) < 1292286077 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pure coincidence < 1292286084 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one might even say ... SYNCHRONICITY < 1292286090 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION gets switten < 1292286110 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(those who are swatted are switten) < 1292286132 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: heh. but you managed to do it between me saving the page and refreshing Recent Changes < 1292286139 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1292286149 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which must have been less than half a minute < 1292287133 0 :Sasha2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1292287139 0 :Sasha!~WHAT@97-124-39-38.phnx.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1292287500 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this reminds me of mel brooks's luggage in space balls: http://www.buzzfeed.com/gavon/top-25-gawker-passwords < 1292287653 0 :Wamanuz!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1292287654 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh... Wonder why ping times on this LAN link are so asymmetric and growing: In the start the ping times were about 0.5ms and 0.6ms. Now those are about 11.0ms and 1.7ms (resp.) < 1292287756 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: "Top 25 Gawker Passwords"? Seriously? < 1292287769 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If writing "Top" and then a number was banned on the internet, I would be a happy man. < 1292287778 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: gravitional time dilation. check if one of the servers has become a black hole < 1292287789 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1292287791 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's literally, most popular < 1292287794 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not "best" :D < 1292287798 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1292287804 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aren't pings round trip times? < 1292287834 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :divided by 2, usually < 1292287867 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, there's factor of ~6 difference in round-trip times... < 1292287900 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And variability between pings is very small... < 1292287931 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: erm are you sure ping times are divided < 1292287963 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: they're not, since they're round-trip times < 1292287973 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure why you said they were divided by 2. < 1292288006 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It isn't time measurement drift: Starting another ping shows the same kind of RTTs. < 1292288011 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: ? < 1292288076 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, both times grew at start, but now that lesser time appears to have reached saturation whereas the bigger one continues to increase... < 1292288204 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, pings to IPv6 address of the same host are fast (~0.6ms). < 1292288344 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: http://sprunge.us/JYDZ Please tell me how silly I am. < 1292288416 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW: IPSec slows down RTT by about 0.3ms. :-) < 1292288676 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i misremembered, i guess < 1292288683 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1292288807 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :=> IPSEC doubles the latency for me... :-) < 1292288807 0 :Sasha!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1292288831 0 :Sasha!~WHAT@97-124-39-38.phnx.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1292289361 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: How close are you to the batsman? < 1292289368 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I am the goddamn batsman. < 1292289393 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: The closer you are to the batsman, the more silly you are. < 1292289425 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Such a Joker. < 1292289435 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Must ... kill ... everyone ... < 1292289509 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: wat < 1292289517 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Two or four jokers, please? < 1292289571 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: wat < 1292289625 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292289655 0 :Mathnerd314!~mathnerd3@dsl.6.28.53.206.cos.dyn.pcisys.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1292289816 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the minimum worst case bound for number of UTF-8 characters required to store SHA-512 hash? :-) < 1292289897 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: 64, surely < 1292289902 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: if they're all in ASCII range < 1292289925 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: well, presumably you mean the actual raw hash in base 256 < 1292289926 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe not < 1292290015 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: these look nice: http://www.retributiongames.com/quandary/ < 1292290079 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: heh i like this: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=46707 < 1292290092 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please read this and tell me how crazy I did this: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/textfile/miscellaneous/computer_cricket < 1292290219 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, not UTF-8 characters, but UTF-8 bytes. It seems the number is 72, 73 or 74. < 1292290252 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The FPGA is no good unless there is sufficient public information available to create and upload the files to the FPGA without using any software you didn't write. < 1292290264 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION thinks "minimum worst case" looks a _teeny_ bit oxymoronic < 1292290636 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: methinks many people would disagree ... < 1292290699 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Why? < 1292290709 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's silly to say that? < 1292290723 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Why? < 1292290737 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: because FPGAs are useful even without meeting that condition < 1292290789 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it is better if it does meet the condition I wrote. < 1292290829 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love not studying for finals. < 1292290857 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: "Laziness + weak hash tables + dynamic scope + side effects = heisenbug. Made a race condition look like an off-by-one error." < 1292290863 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Anyone who can combine these things is a god among men. < 1292290873 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And then FIGURE OUT what a bug involving them is.) < 1292290882 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you read my other message? Do you think the umpire is really a vampire? < 1292290883 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Oh holy mother of god. < 1292290893 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Indeed. < 1292291556 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Please recommend me an alternative to /r/programming that isn't Slashdot. < 1292291698 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :RadioBotStreams < 1292291704 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#esoteric < 1292291727 0 :RadioBotStreams!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :quintopia < 1292291756 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah pretty much #esoteric < 1292291801 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but I generate most of the links in #esoteric... from /r/programming :) < 1292291806 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want something where I don't have to do the filtering work, dammit! < 1292291884 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are looking for programming-related news links? < 1292291916 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: pretty much... although more a CS bent < 1292291921 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, programming links. < 1292292006 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That minimum worst case is actually well defined. Consider all functions that map all 2^512 SHA-512 hashes to UTF-8 strings. For each function f, there is maximum number of bytes in resulting UTF-8 strings (L(f)). Now what is the minimum of L(f) over all possible choices of f? < 1292292111 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: start going to conferences :P < 1292292151 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: that costs rather more money than the £0 I currently spend on programming links, involves a lot more travelling that probably doesn't fit into my life, and involves a lot more boredom and time passing, too < 1292292157 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is at most 74 because one can split 512 bits into 74 blocks of 7 bits each, and one can encode each block using a single ASCII character (which is subset of UTF-8). < 1292292174 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: but you'll always be on the bleeding edge of CS news < 1292292200 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: i can get the same from reading random arxiv papers, I want a filter, dammit < 1292292219 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(more seriously, there aren't many places out there where you don't have to separate the signal from the noise yourself...even conferences have some crap) < 1292292248 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The lower bound of 72 comes from the fact that entropy of UTF-8 is ~7.1756 bits per byte, giving lower bound of ~71.353 bytes (which rounds up to 72 bytes). < 1292292270 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: yes, but /r/programming is significantly worse than it used to be. < 1292292352 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: figure out who is making it worse and get them kidnapped by ethiopian pirates? < 1292292385 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your solutions, always so practical. < 1292292445 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder... < 1292292557 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1292292611 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: news.ycombinator.com? < 1292292648 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, I computed the exact low bound: 73. < 1292292648 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: i know of it. < 1292292658 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is it? < 1292292665 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: sure, it is generally better than reddit -- but on the other hand, it's coated with the startup mindset < 1292292669 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh *quintopia: < 1292292691 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: meaning, lots of stupid business articles I don't care about, lots of rubbish startup-related things I don't care about, and more links than I'd like to WEB 2.0 crap < 1292292696 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(WEB 2.0 is shouted there.) < 1292292750 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Facebook intern visualizes friendships, draws world map" "HN: We're starting a "Move to Silicon Valley" wiki. We could use some help." "The Anatomy of a Perfect Landing Page" "Commute to work like a boss, fly there" <-- first things on the current front page that i really don't care to see < 1292292757 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: i mean, the programming links are better than reddit's. and the comments too. < 1292292774 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: but there's more completely-unrelated-to-programming crap than /r/programming, and it's more irritating than reddit's non-programming crap < 1292292782 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: write a simple software filter on top of their rss feed :P < 1292292801 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: unfortunately i have not yet written a program to classify the topic of statements from their text by interpreting them < 1292292855 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know someone who has. he implemented it from another paper, and is sending me a writeup on wed. < 1292292891 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :classifies with 97% accuracy in a 3-fold cross-validation < 1292292956 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: "Commute to work like a boss, fly there" -- how on earth would you classify this is "non-programming" < 1292292970 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's near the level of AI to identify that as non-programming without also filtering out a lot of programming links < 1292293018 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you'd need to look at the actual article < 1292293028 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it takes a certain number of features < 1292293050 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: i doubt i could get past a paywall. < 1292293050 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~100 words is usually enough < 1292293063 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: you realise that classification algorithms are not a new thing? < 1292293070 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: could you get past a paywall anyway? < 1292293075 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they won't categorise Hacker News for me. < 1292293084 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: i'm saying that it's pointless mentioning it without linking the paper < 1292293097 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, but if you take a significant subset of HNews and classify it manually, then they can < 1292293116 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For SHA-256, the similar number is 37. And for Skein-1024, 144. < 1292293143 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you misunderstood me < 1292293147 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: what about cubehash :) < 1292293151 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: So have you renamed it to scape🐐 yet? < 1292293155 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: I did? < 1292293156 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: nope! < 1292293165 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: DOOD WHY NOT < 1292293172 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i meant, your learning algorithm would need to look at the actual article linked from HNews in order to get enough data to classify < 1292293175 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: VARIOUS REASONS < 1292293177 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: oh. < 1292293184 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: that would eat my bandwidth :) < 1292293204 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...how often do new articles get posted? < 1292293214 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like at most every 10 min < 1292293230 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: way more often than that, they just don't all get promoted to the front page < 1292293238 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1292293239 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see /newest < 1292293247 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: i don't want it using my bandwidth when i'm not viewing it, anyway! < 1292293250 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: TOO VARIOUS IF YOU ASK ME < 1292293253 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it'd have to do it all at once --> slow < 1292293258 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oops, 36 (256 bits), 72 (512 bits) and 143 (1024 bits)... :-/ < 1292293260 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: maybe if you write some code for it i'll CONSIDER it < 1292293284 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: best to have it hosted on a remote server then :P < 1292293293 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: or just keep reading reddi < 1292293294 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :t < 1292293339 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: How about if I just register goatpettingzoo.com and don't put goat porn there? < 1292293350 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: does that mean you're gonna stop whining about /r/programming's slow decline? < 1292293354 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: X-D < 1292293369 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: can you link to clog log dates when i have whined about it? < 1292293376 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH RIGHT there's actually only one and it's today. < 1292293387 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easy enough to link then :P < 1292293429 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but complaining about something when you're not willing to work to improve is useless even if it's only once < 1292293442 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: what am i expected to do, start my own fucking site? < 1292293451 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i said that /r/programming is going to shit and *asked for alternatives* < 1292293451 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1292293452 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please? < 1292293465 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, i already have a design for a reddit-based site and it relies fundamentally on nobody knowing about it < 1292293468 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but there are no alternatives :P < 1292293469 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*reddit-like < 1292293475 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: then just say that? < 1292293482 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: you whine about me whining way more than i actually whine < 1292293505 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlikely < 1292293522 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: well, it's the same order of magnitude < 1292293547 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know what yakitori penalties are? < 1292293563 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Restricting to BMP doesn't change the figures (36/72/143). < 1292293600 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: why on earth are you calculating this :) < 1292293609 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just for fun... :-) < 1292293643 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it is considerably easier than computing the exact expression for the entropy of UTF-8 bytes. :-) < 1292293696 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: What is the entropy of UTF-8? < 1292293699 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since you need to solve one root of 4th degree polynomial (that doesn't have rational root) for that... < 1292293742 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: BAH! Throwing things at Wolfram Alpha solves all problems. < 1292293748 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...just expressing the polynomial and saying which root it is would be an exact expression, nay? < 1292293833 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The polynomial is x⁴-128x³-1920x²-61438x-1048544=0 and the root in question is the root in the interval [128,256]. < 1292293945 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take base 2 logarithm of that and you get the entropy in bits per byte. < 1292293961 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :144.56765801397 < 1292293983 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: fuck you, i was just doing that :) < 1292293985 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. < 1292293987 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"solve x⁴-128x³-1920x²-61438x-1048544=0, 128 <= x <= 256" < 1292293988 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wolfram alpha < 1292293990 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1292294009 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i happened to have a src0 function in one of my haskell files < 1292294055 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: 7.1756 bits of entropy per byte < 1292294058 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ha i did the last step before you < 1292294077 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: only because i didn't even try, PHHH < 1292294079 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can anything have negative or complex number entropy? < 1292294085 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is that PPPH < 1292294100 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: what sound are you trying to express :P < 1292294102 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: not in this sense < 1292294102 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: no. well negative maybe. < 1292294110 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's a black hole, say :D < 1292294111 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: No, it is PPHHHPHPHHHPPHPHPHPHHHPPHPHPHPPHPHPHPHPPHPHPHPHPH < 1292294137 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it called a raspberry sound? < 1292294171 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: "phhhhhhhbt" < 1292294173 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one would think < 1292294173 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is the sound of one raspberry clapping? < 1292294179 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowing_a_raspberry < 1292294185 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: DEEP < 1292294196 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: phhhhhhhbt < 1292294198 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd go for < 1292294233 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow. someone sold a web app for $350? lol < 1292294241 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: BIG BUX < 1292294252 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: i was offered IIRC $20 for the source to my digg#1 site :P < 1292294271 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: although physically entropy might very well be negative given that afaik the zero point is an arbitrary choice < 1292294279 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this being before digg went to shit... well ok it had gone to shit but not as much as it have now) < 1292294291 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but informational entropy is not that way < 1292294326 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: But what I mean is, can negative informational entropy have some meaning? < 1292294327 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the macroscopic thermodynamic version of entropy only speaks of changes in it, not an absolute scale, iirc < 1292294352 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know < 1292294358 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make a esolang with negative (or complex number) informational entropy. < 1292294384 0 :daniel!~daniel@114.81.104.139 JOIN :#esoteric < 1292294415 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please tell me what should belong in the "Multiball mode" section and "Alien abduction" section, and what things are wrong with the "Physics" section. < 1292294419 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know that entropy for FSA's is always non-negative, since it's a solution of a non-negative matrix maximal eigenvalue < 1292294455 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ConversationalChaff whoever wrote this is a horrible person and knows way too much about people :) < 1292294494 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Would a negative entropy esolang have to be uncomputable to work? Or not? < 1292294511 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1292294529 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: and why do you want to include syntactically invalid commands in your IRC server? < 1292294531 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: the babies demand to know < 1292294545 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292294565 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowing_a_raspberry < 1292294566 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: i don't think uncomputability helps, really < 1292294570 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope the raspberry at least buys you dinner. < 1292294585 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION swats Gregor -----### < 1292294587 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: OK. < 1292294620 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd rather need some esoteric concept of information to calculate the entropy of, i think < 1292294662 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there _is_ of course such a thing as quantum information theory which i know almost nothing about, i don't know if it has any nonnegative entropies < 1292294696 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan is quantum < 1292294705 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the babies cannot demand anything, i ate them all < 1292294712 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: WHYYYYYYYYYYY < 1292294727 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i already _told_ you they were tasty < 1292294749 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does the people who wrote the RFC of IRC know why? < 1292294765 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yes. < 1292294767 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :undoubtedly. < 1292294791 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: i would be surprised if they even were aware of my existence < 1292294812 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: THEY SEE EVERYTHING < 1292294967 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Do they see my IRC server? < 1292294986 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1292295020 0 :daniel!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2 < 1292295026 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do they see invisible people? < 1292295064 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguolabial_consonant < 1292295093 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the r proves IPA has a symbol for _everything_) < 1292295184 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now make a language that has all the sounds of IPA, and a few new ones that are impossible for any people to ever speak. < 1292295218 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i would like to meet someone who can pronounce all of IPA < 1292295254 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't say < 1292295254 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Do you even know of any such people? < 1292295300 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: no, i'm not sure it's possible :) < 1292295321 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's probably two sounds in there that are impossible to pronounce with the same mouth, like it can only learn to use one and then it can't do the other < 1292295322 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1292295449 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make the game with a monster with two mouth < 1292296271 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1292296417 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Terminal fell off < 1292296468 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1292296560 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292297281 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In other news, AIDS has been cured. < 1292297471 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1292297683 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was it money? < 1292297953 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.cureaidsinfo.com/ <<< oh so actually it was done in the 80's already < 1292297989 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and apparently, once you've cured your aids at home, you can take up a new hobby & learn a new language < 1292298034 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: Bone marrow from someone immune to it! < 1292298035 0 :Iwnda01!~nomad@pool-72-79-134-68.sctnpa.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1292298056 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aaand Pidgin is crashing. < 1292298064 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In its JSON parser‽ < 1292298067 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does it have one? < 1292298140 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: that's not news < 1292298188 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: No, but seriously. AIDS has been cured. < 1292298249 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...more than one person? < 1292298284 0 :Iwnda01!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not to butt in but, there is no cure for aids. < 1292298325 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh! < 1292298328 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: No, but only due to the expense. < 1292298363 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's fucking hard to hunt down a bone marrow donor that is genetically immune to AIDS, and this happened by chance. < 1292298372 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Iwnda01: Yes there is. < 1292298372 0 :Iwnda01!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not true. it's because HIV morphs so often it's apparently impossible to kill. < 1292298390 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Iwnda01: do you even know the case we are talking about? < 1292298402 0 :Iwnda01!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i suppose i dont. < 1292298408 0 :Iwnda01!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this would all be news to me. < 1292298409 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Iwnda01: Bone marrow transplant with someone actually *immune* to the virus. < 1292298421 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Iwnda01: Suddenly, all the immune cells in that person's body are immune to the virus. < 1292298426 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And so HIV goes away. < 1292298430 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Poof, cure for AIDS. < 1292298438 0 :Iwnda01!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which person < 1292298473 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are people genetically immune to AIDS < 1292298473 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He was named only as "the Berlin patient" in the /New England Journal of Medicine/ and /Blood/. < 1292298478 0 :Iwnda01!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how would we find out if they are immune without infecting them and/or possibly killing them in the long run < 1292298483 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's genetic < 1292298487 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can devise a simple test < 1292298504 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: i am pretty sure i saw a reddit post about him giving an interview under the full name < 1292298508 0 :Iwnda01!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i see, remove the fluids and test out of the body < 1292298535 0 :Iwnda01!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well he's got a trillion dollar body if he lives through all of the operations. < 1292298549 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not one person < 1292298557 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Iwnda01: About 1% of Caucasians are immune to it, actually. < 1292298565 0 :Iwnda01!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amazing. < 1292298605 0 :Iwnda01!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's great news < 1292298614 0 :Iwnda01!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are they making any headway with it? < 1292298663 0 :Iwnda01!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :has anyone been cured? < 1292298673 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Research on easier/cheaper ways of doing it are in progress. < 1292298699 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, a single person, who by *chance* needed a bone marrow transplant (leukemia), and his donor was immune to AIDS. < 1292298702 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we can finally have start having unprotected buttsex with strangers < 1292298704 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.aidsmap.com/page/1577949/?r=1 is the link currently on reddit < 1292298704 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As I said earlier. < 1292298714 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a species < 1292298747 0 :Iwnda01!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: that's looking at it with a hawks eye < 1292298754 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: well you'd need to find an immune bone marrow donor first < 1292298779 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Iwnda01: i think you may not be acquainted with oklofok's particular brand of humor < 1292298784 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really, you have like 50 years to do that once you get the virus < 1292298799 0 :Iwnda01!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i totally get him. i was just seeing which he was < 1292298844 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: yeah but what if there _aren't_ any? compatible donors are probably rare, immune people are rare... < 1292298846 0 :Iwnda01!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :butt sex for everyone < 1292298851 0 :Iwnda01!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who would want it... < 1292298878 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually this one time, doctors told me i absolutely must have chlamydia, but then turned out i didn't; my conclusion is i'm immune to all std's < 1292298897 0 :Iwnda01!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: you're in tall cotton < 1292298913 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Iwnda01: what does that mean? < 1292298918 0 :Iwnda01!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I, oklofok, am also the king pin. < 1292298946 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't get you at all < 1292298983 0 :Iwnda01!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I don't get you either < 1292298989 0 :Iwnda01!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice to meet you < 1292298990 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Uh, bone marrow donors are always compatible. < 1292298991 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't not get me < 1292298997 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: They start by removing your immune system. < 1292298998 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: not in house < 1292299002 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1292299018 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The new bone marrow replaces it. < 1292299026 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: oh they are? i guess that makes sense. < 1292299050 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: in that case it should be possible to _grow_ immune bone marrow, shouldn't it < 1292299059 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possible. < 1292299061 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought they stick a needle in the donor's back, take some shit outta there, and inject it in the other dude < 1292299065 0 :Iwnda01!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stem cells? < 1292299065 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poof done < 1292299071 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Iwnda01: king pin? < 1292299072 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Iwnda01: yeah < 1292299079 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who else is the king pin? < 1292299109 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: After irradiating & chemotherapying the receiver of the marrow to kill the bone marrow and the white blood cells. < 1292299113 0 :Iwnda01!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :will farrel < 1292299135 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: have you even *watched* house? < 1292299150 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that sounds just crazy! < 1292299159 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: I don't watch House, no. < 1292299173 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: I prefer knowing how medicine actually works. < 1292299204 0 :Iwnda01!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus house has a terrible attitude < 1292299227 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote oklofok: I don't watch House, no. oklofok: I prefer knowing how medicine actually works. < 1292299245 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :249) oklofok: I don't watch House, no. oklofok: I prefer knowing how medicine actually works. < 1292299260 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: what, you trust a dusty old ugly book more than SMART MEDICAL TYPE PEOPLE on tv? < 1292299284 0 :Iwnda01!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :judge not the book by its dusty ugly cover < 1292299301 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: hey you cannot trust anyone who's been spending time with blackadder < 1292299304 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: ^ This explains the entire American political, intellectual, and cultural climate. < 1292299329 0 :Iwnda01!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but judge the book once you read it thoroughly. < 1292299336 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i learn all my math on numb3rs < 1292299369 0 :Iwnda01!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats that oklofok < 1292299375 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION se'hųku suru tiȳû < 1292299384 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tijuu? < 1292299388 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: words to live by < 1292299399 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: More like words to die by. < 1292299410 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"/me is in the middle of seppuku" < 1292299416 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Iwnda01: show about... well no idea what but they have funny clips on youtube < 1292299433 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok words to live by, very briefly < 1292299436 0 :Iwnda01!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds about right < 1292299438 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1292299461 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some sort of hacking stuff probably. < 1292299468 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: Math. < 1292299474 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: It claims to be about math. < 1292299491 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: which means it's probably about arithmetic? < 1292299499 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sure it *claims* that < 1292299500 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1292299504 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :show about aritmetic < 1292299506 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: No, it's about BULLSHIT. < 1292299528 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Imagine if Treknobabble were done using mathematics jargon. < 1292299531 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That. < 1292299531 0 :Iwnda01!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION installs tuxmath < 1292299537 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"hey let's make a show where people do like REALLY BIG SUMS MENTALLY and all teh math ppl will luuuuurb it" < 1292299537 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1292299576 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2rGTXHvPCQ Also, this. < 1292299584 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"we have to calculate the topological invariant to find the kleene closure of this klein vierergrouppe!" < 1292299590 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*gruppe or whatever < 1292299602 0 :Iwnda01!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gruppe secks < 1292299607 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It's how hackers chat when they don't want to be overheard." < 1292299611 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: hey no fair i was about to write some mathobabble myself! < 1292299627 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can still do it, it's funny twice < 1292299628 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it would, of course, take a *complete* moron to use IRC to be secretive.) < 1292299634 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(SILC, perhaps, but IRC?) < 1292299653 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, 1337. < 1292299671 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SHIPPING CHANNELS IN THE OCEAN < 1292299677 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's actually the only clip i know < 1292299681 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from the show < 1292299689 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...does 1337 have any interesting mathematical properties? < 1292299730 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: No, it's an incredibly mundane substitution cypher. < 1292299773 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"OMG OMG THIS WILL BE OVER IN A SECOND" "SCREENSHOT QUICKLY BEFORE THE INFORMATION IS GONNEEEE" < 1292299779 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0F3-j-GQcts&feature=related OH MY GOD THAT HURTS < 1292299805 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell [n | n <- 2:[3,5 .. 40], 1337 `mod` n == 0] < 1292299812 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah no egobot < 1292299872 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`which factor < 1292299873 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/bin/factor < 1292299877 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`factor 1337 < 1292299878 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1337: 7 191 < 1292299901 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOT EVEN PRIME < 1292299915 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: i'm so confused i don't even know if that was a correct description < 1292299917 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hypothesis: 1337 is the smallest uninteresting number < 1292299921 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1292299945 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: It was a bizarre mangling of the Chinese Room thought experiment and the Turing Machine. < 1292299955 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Making it an interesting number. < 1292299957 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i'm still not sure what happened there < 1292299966 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: that's the joke < 1292299968 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: shush, you < 1292299978 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the chinese room experiment is ... which is called the turing test < 1292299979 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: EXPLAINING THE JOKE MAKES IT FUNNIER < 1292299984 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: true < 1292300086 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so yeah he just mentions perfectly programmed computer = turing test while explaining the chinese room experiment... i think < 1292300089 0 :Iwnda01!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1292300121 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks for halting test clip < 1292300177 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope :( < 1292300193 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION clips a halting test onto oklofok  < 1292300231 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the pun-isher strikes again! < 1292300272 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I MOST DEFINITELY AM NOT ON STRIKE < 1292300315 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trying too hard < 1292300354 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCinK2PUfyk <<< "i doubt you studied it *the usual way*!" < 1292300446 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: The pain! The agony! The wrong aspect ratio! < 1292300462 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"math math math math math math math. now let my use my brain to calculate the probabilities." < 1292300493 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love this show, it's like watching puppies fighting to death < 1292300501 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know it's really wrong < 1292300503 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but oh god < 1292300505 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't stop watching < 1292300515 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems to be so bad it's good. < 1292301264 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay i can't find any math related clips < 1292301268 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i should watch the whole show < 1292301290 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the math guy has written articles in low-dimensional topology, so probably he talks about that stuff < 1292301326 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but only in a flat and linear way < 1292301376 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :noob, i work almost exclusively with 0 dimensional spaces < 1292301417 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i guess you did as well, but couldn't make a pun out of that < 1292301438 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION prefers dealing with n-dimensional spaces where n is in N and less than 0. < 1292301441 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i cantor i won't < 1292301448 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(quick, someone make that make sense!) < 1292301459 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are many definitions of topological dimension < 1292301467 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i'm not sure any of them allow subzero dimensions < 1292301480 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: was that yours? < 1292301481 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: iirc many of them coincide for zero, though < 1292301485 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1292301521 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know this fact very well because many of the ppl doing math in our uni are actually computer scientists, they don't even seem to care what the definition is, because they just work with 0 dim < 1292301527 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you can consider the empty set to have dimension -1 < 1292301541 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1292301562 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the recursive sphere definition at least < 1292301573 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dimension = dimension of sphere + 1 < 1292301577 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for metrics < 1292301584 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*metric spaces < 1292301637 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what else is there.... d dimensions = open covers have a subcover where at most d+1 sets intersect at any given point < 1292301645 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it work with that... < 1292301654 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1292301656 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perfectly < 1292301662 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i'm getting an erection < 1292301677 0 :quintopi1!~quintopia@209.59.220.33 JOIN :#esoteric < 1292301681 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i'm getting an erection < 1292301690 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i believe that definition was the one used for the topological measures stuff < 1292301710 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we used that in our ergodic theory seminar couple weeks ago < 1292301716 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you need dimension at least 2 for things to be non-trivial) < 1292301735 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for showing something like topological entropy = sup of measure theoretic entropies for different measures < 1292301771 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" (you need dimension at least 2 for things to be non-trivial)" <<< what do you mean? < 1292301803 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think that subcover thing is "trivial" for 1d < 1292301844 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and for 0 it says that you can extract a clopen cover from any open cover... is that even true? < 1292301845 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1292301901 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i certainly didn't know that if it's true < 1292301926 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1292301933 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it's for *refinements* < 1292301957 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah obviously you can't always extract clopen covers < 1292301971 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just take more than half the space in two open sets, but not all of it < 1292301977 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then obv you need to take both, and get some overlap < 1292301983 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for any definition of half < 1292302034 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :refinement being a family of open sets U such that each u \in U is a subset of an open set in the orig cover < 1292302056 0 :oerjan_!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302093 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also why am i here, i woke up at 5 so i could do some slides and then i just idle on irc < 1292302095 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :05:42 oerjan> at one time i _thought_ i had a proof that if you had dimension >= 2 then you _did_ have nontrivial topological measures but it didn't survive my blackboard demonstration :/ < 1292302100 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :05:44 oerjan> ...what does that entropy supremum (i think i recall the theorem) have to do with dimension... < 1292302114 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with leasurely topology technobabble < 1292302146 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm what < 1292302157 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay what's your definition of topological measure < 1292302165 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because zero dimensional spaces have very nontrivial measures! < 1292302215 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...i've explained it before, they're a topological generalization of lebesgue measures, which are only defined on open and closed sets < 1292302264 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and which only need to be additive on partitions of the whole space into open and closed sets < 1292302286 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean into clopen sets? < 1292302292 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not into either < 1292302293 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, either open or closed < 1292302295 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1292302297 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :each set < 1292302303 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1292302325 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and only finitely many (although we have a theorem that countable also works) < 1292302331 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you say this thing is trivial for 0 dim and i assume the definition assumes a zero dimensional space :D < 1292302337 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm smart ain't i :D < 1292302346 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this thing is trivial for <= 1 dim < 1292302348 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302348 0 :Sasha!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302348 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302348 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302348 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302349 0 :Ilari_antrcomp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302349 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302350 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302350 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302352 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302353 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302353 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302353 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302353 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302353 0 :Zuu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302354 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302354 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302355 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302357 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302358 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302358 0 :myndzi\!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302359 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302359 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302360 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(by assuming you meant clopen partition) < 1292302368 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1292302373 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, all the examples become lebesgue measures < 1292302442 0 :Gregor!~Gregor@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302442 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302446 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, but so what's the exact definition, any function to positive reals that's finitely additive on partitions into closeds and opens? < 1292302470 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sure you've explained this before, so sorry about having absolutely no recollection :P < 1292302472 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it should be continuous < 1292302485 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both-continuous? < 1292302493 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1292302494 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1292302497 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the measure of an open set is the supremum of the measures of closed sets inside < 1292302500 0 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302520 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay < 1292302528 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302528 0 :augur!~augur@208.58.6.161 JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302528 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-173-239-57.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302528 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-2-154.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302528 0 :Zuu!zuu@unaffiliated/zuu JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302528 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302528 0 :mycroftiv!~ircguy@h69-128-47-242.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302535 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the additivity means that the dual also holds < 1292302542 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1292302545 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302551 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finite measure? < 1292302556 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1292302562 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then i believe you but let's see < 1292302572 0 :Slereah!~butt@ANantes-259-1-140-166.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302572 0 :myndzi\!myndzi@c-24-19-39-178.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302572 0 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.251.165.38 JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302572 0 :yiyus!~124271242@67.202.106.57 JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302577 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1292302579 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obv < 1292302597 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the basic theory the space is compact, connected and locally connected < 1292302599 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know why i had to think about that < 1292302601 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302601 0 :Mathnerd314!~mathnerd3@dsl.6.28.53.206.cos.dyn.pcisys.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302601 0 :Sasha!~WHAT@97-124-39-38.phnx.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302601 0 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302601 0 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302601 0 :Ilari_antrcomp!~user@2002:5870:32ae::1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302601 0 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:32ae:1:4261:86ff:fe96:fca JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302603 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*the whole space < 1292302603 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1292302605 0 :pikhq_!~pikhq@75-173-239-57.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302625 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i almost never get to see such spaces < 1292302626 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1292302634 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and also hausdorff < 1292302640 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes they are connected, sometimes they are compact, but never both! < 1292302652 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1292302664 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait connected doesn't imply locally connected? < 1292302668 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302668 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302668 0 :Sasha!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302668 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302668 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302668 0 :Ilari_antrcomp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302669 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302670 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302670 0 :myndzi\!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302670 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302671 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302672 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302673 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302673 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302673 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302673 0 :Zuu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302674 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302674 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302675 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302676 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302678 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302678 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292302679 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1292302680 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know what it means but < 1292302680 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the fuck is going on < 1292302680 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like it < 1292302703 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Write error: Broken pipe < 1292302716 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1292302729 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd say locally connected is a very weird term for that < 1292302730 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :standard example is the space of {(x, sin (1/x)) | x > 0} union 0 x [-1,1] < 1292302736 0 :pikhq_!~pikhq@75-173-239-57.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302736 0 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:32ae:1:4261:86ff:fe96:fca JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302736 0 :Ilari_antrcomp!~user@2002:5870:32ae::1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302736 0 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302736 0 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302736 0 :Sasha!~WHAT@97-124-39-38.phnx.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302736 0 :Mathnerd314!~mathnerd3@dsl.6.28.53.206.cos.dyn.pcisys.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302736 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302736 0 :yiyus!~124271242@67.202.106.57 JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302736 0 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.251.165.38 JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302736 0 :myndzi\!myndzi@c-24-19-39-178.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302736 0 :Slereah!~butt@ANantes-259-1-140-166.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302736 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302736 0 :mycroftiv!~ircguy@h69-128-47-242.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302736 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302736 0 :Zuu!zuu@unaffiliated/zuu JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302736 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-2-154.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302736 0 :augur!~augur@208.58.6.161 JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302736 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302736 0 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302736 0 :Gregor!~Gregor@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302736 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302738 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :neighborhood basis of connected sets < 1292302746 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :connected, compact, but not locally connected < 1292302767 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded < 1292302770 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i proved that's connected but not path connected in topology < 1292302773 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, * x > 0 and x <= 1 < 1292302779 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise it's not compact < 1292302781 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iir < 1292302781 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c < 1292302788 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1292302794 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1292302802 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not path connected obv < 1292302822 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302822 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed but it's not locally connected e.g. around (0,0) < 1292302823 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's OBVIOUSLY connected < 1292302827 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look i proved it again! < 1292302860 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you need the entire height of the curve to connect different parts of it < 1292302866 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1292302868 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i get it < 1292302874 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think < 1292302898 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean i get it intuitively, but i'll have to think about the defs a bit < 1292302915 0 :quintopi1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 322 seconds < 1292302916 0 :ineiros!~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1292302946 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right you can't get ANY open set around origin < 1292302949 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's connected < 1292302974 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :locally connected doesn't imply connected? erm. of course it doesn't, disjoint union < 1292302999 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know this conversation of ours would already make a pretty good tv show < 1292303018 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_> < 1292303032 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would watch that show < 1292303120 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway the strange properties of these measures depends on it _not_ being possible to approximately partition any open set into small open or closed parts that you can add up < 1292303141 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then all the youtube comments would be like "lol that's SO inaccurate, what he's saying is so totally only true if the measure has no atoms!" < 1292303186 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but dimension <= 1 is equivalent to saying every open covering can be refined into a partition of the space into open and closed sets < 1292303195 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :win 27 < 1292303195 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1292303202 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1292303244 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(btw this theorem doesn't use any of the connectedness assumptions on the space) < 1292303258 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the <= 1 one? < 1292303263 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1292303271 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are just needed to be able to construct examples nicely < 1292303302 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, i don't see why that thingie is true, but i suppose that's nontrivial? < 1292303312 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay if it's dimensions 0 and 1, then i'm sure it's nontrivial < 1292303328 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i don't know any properties those have others don't :d < 1292303342 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :take that usual refinement of a dimension <= 1 space, then by definition the open sets only intersect at most 2 at each point < 1292303344 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually < 1292303346 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're right < 1292303353 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for this to be a great tv show < 1292303362 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we need like a really stupid fbi guy < 1292303367 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who asks stupid questions < 1292303386 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"so you're saying a locally connected spaces is like a rabbit that sticks its head into a bush when it gets scared?" < 1292303410 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1292303436 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? :D < 1292303442 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that fbi guy < 1292303483 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay walk me through it, how exactly do you make the partition < 1292303488 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1292303494 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait a minute < 1292303515 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now if you look carefully at this refinement, the points that are in two given sets are of course in the open set that is their intersection < 1292303531 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :take open cover's intersections with all others, plus it minus the union of all the others? < 1292303551 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess not... < 1292303552 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1292303564 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so walk me through it, how do you make the partition < 1292303599 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other hand, the points that are in just _one_ given open set of the refined cover and not in any other, form a closed set < 1292303615 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or continue your explanation whatever :D < 1292303617 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the complement of the union of the other open sets) < 1292303621 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1292303630 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you explaining exactly this... < 1292303632 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's look! < 1292303637 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but of course! < 1292303641 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1292303649 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i assumed you assumed i'd just see it < 1292303660 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it sounded so simple < 1292303673 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not hard if you draw the sets on paper < 1292303693 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and have like 3d diagrams < 1292303697 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of the refinement) < 1292303698 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and flying numbers on the screen < 1292303767 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" on the other hand, the points that are in just _one_ given open set of the refined cover and not in any other, form a closed set" <<< this was the part i didn't see, but yeah it's obvious now that you stated it explicitly < 1292303783 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they form a bipartite graph, with the closed sets for the points in exactly one refinement set being one set of vertices, and the open sets for the points in _two_ refinement sets the other set of vertices < 1292303785 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" (the complement of the union of the other open sets)" <<< and even more obvious after you gave the proof < 1292303804 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and edges between sets that touch < 1292303886 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1292303899 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's true for all partitions gotten this way? < 1292303913 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that obvious again... < 1292303917 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@209.59.220.33 JOIN :#esoteric < 1292303943 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well of course it is < 1292303946 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by definition of touch < 1292303969 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1292303982 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the definition of touch? < 1292303983 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1292303987 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you could alternatively say edges between sets that come partially from the same original refinement set < 1292303990 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is the fbi agent < 1292303994 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1292304003 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i believe that is equivalent < 1292304011 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :touch = their closures intersect < 1292304018 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by "original refinement set" you mean "original set"? < 1292304025 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh alrighty < 1292304045 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well we started with an arbitrary open cover and than used the dimension to refine it < 1292304051 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh indeed we did < 1292304064 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*then < 1292304102 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then this refined cover pretty directly gives this graph of open vs. closed vertices < 1292304291 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but erm so < 1292304335 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1292304367 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :take [0, 1] with cover [0, 5), (0.4, 0.6), (0.5, 1], then (0.4, 0.5) and (0.5, 0.6) have intersecting closures even though both are intersection sets < 1292304396 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's that 5 doing there < 1292304407 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1292304414 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[0, 0.5) < 1292304418 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5 was visiting his aunt < 1292304447 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hm right < 1292304459 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you only test open sets for touching closed sets < 1292304463 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not other open sets < 1292304465 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :win 16 < 1292304473 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh so then it's basically by def < 1292304482 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: are these some sorta election thingies < 1292304489 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: no < 1292304499 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have no other guesses < 1292304534 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :common field sizes? < 1292304554 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1292304580 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan_: wait where were we going with this graph thing? < 1292304585 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm a bit... distracted < 1292304591 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should prepare for this talk thingie < 1292304595 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but here i am < 1292304630 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the graph is just a side thing < 1292304661 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the thing is, this allows us to partition the whole space into tiny open and closed sets < 1292304682 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.math.utu.fi/projects/jac2010/program.html <<< look i'm famous! < 1292304706 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it certainly does do that < 1292304734 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we had this really fun partition lemma in our seminar on beuhahrug spaces (i may remember the name wrong) < 1292304743 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you make them small enough, the measure of any larger open set can be approximated as sums of tiny sets within... but in the limit this forces the measure to be a lebesgue measure. < 1292304762 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1292304766 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1292304770 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I GUESS < 1292304787 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this was whose def? < 1292304790 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1292304797 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this topological measure thing < 1292304815 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :johan aarnes, the advisor of my collaborator alf rustad < 1292304838 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :originally he called it quasi-measures < 1292304844 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, guessed it was you ppl's or you wouldn't be the ones doing this basic research on it < 1292304853 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it called basic research < 1292304861 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fundamental essentials research < 1292304862 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty much < 1292304947 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i used to define a lot of different things (used to meaning it was last months theme) but in the end i just always realize it's a known concept in disguise, so now i just try to take concrete problems others have stated and solve them < 1292304958 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :month's < 1292304998 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :his original example of a quasi-measure was created as a counterexample to a conjecture < 1292305011 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course that only works if you're willing to go far enough that open problems become solvable :D < 1292305019 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1292305036 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i guess that's the sensible way to come up with new things < 1292305047 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine is usually more like LET'S TAKE THIS RANDOM THING AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS < 1292305052 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about the linearity of certain functionals on C(X) < 1292305063 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1292305087 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the measures are equivalent to certain functionals that are almost, but not necessarily quite linear) < 1292305114 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they _are_ linear then they are lebesgue measures < 1292305143 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1292305172 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose a measure gives you the functional "integral" < 1292305173 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1292305187 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :precisely! < 1292305200 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how are they not linear < 1292305208 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1292305228 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know too little about this stuff < 1292305238 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MUST < 1292305239 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :KNOW < 1292305240 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EVERYTHING < 1292305253 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riesz_representation_theorem#The_representation_theorem_for_linear_functionals_on_Cc.28X.29 < 1292305259 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously i know that < 1292305261 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theorem < 1292305267 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks < 1292305267 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok then :) < 1292305279 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know the basic riesz repr theorem < 1292305295 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that linear functionals are dot products < 1292305297 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's that linear <=> lebesgue, in our case < 1292305306 0 :NicolaeDebevec!~Nicolae@74.195.164.67 JOIN :#esoteric < 1292305317 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait, Borel < 1292305357 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however the "almost but not quite linear" < 1292305370 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i don't know what a "lebesque" measure is, as an adjective < 1292305373 0 :NicolaeDebevec!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1292305381 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a measure defined on... lebesque sets? :D < 1292305383 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1292305392 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i meant borel < 1292305395 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1292305396 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1292305406 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What the fuck? < 1292305417 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the UK, you have to be over 18 to buy... Plastic cutlery. < 1292305425 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for every function f in C(X), look at the sub-algebra C(f) generated by it. then the functional should be linear on it < 1292305457 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks < 1292305470 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty. < 1292305481 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that C(X) is _real_ functions. if we were looking at _complex_ functions, then indeed this requirement _would_ force the entire functional to be linear. i think this was an old theorem. < 1292305506 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the conjecture which aarnes disproved was that this would hold for real C(X) as well < 1292305521 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh the functional should be positive too < 1292305534 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think < 1292305572 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the theory _has_ been generalized to signed measures/non-positive functionals too, in fact one of our articles was about it < 1292305687 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh reals okay < 1292305710 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my thinking went C... durrr... complex. < 1292305753 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you did such cool stuff < 1292305760 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now C here is for continuous i think < 1292305762 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*no < 1292305764 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all my theorems are really boring in comparison < 1292305771 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1292305773 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm aware < 1292305775 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1292305793 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm aware that i also think that's where it probably comes from. < 1292305794 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-173-239-57.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1292305951 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1292305974 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*YES*. < 1292305985 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how encouraging < 1292305999 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a restaurant with ninja waiters. < 1292306001 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YES. < 1292306029 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but are they _french_ ninjas? < 1292306033 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sadly, no. < 1292306044 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Halfway there, though! < 1292306047 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION assumes pikhq got the reference < 1292306052 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course. < 1292306061 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why else do you think I was going "YES" so much? :) < 1292306067 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true, true < 1292306082 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't get the reference < 1292306124 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: tell me something in japanese! < 1292306126 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff1100/fv01076.htm < 1292306127 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: You. Read Freefall. < 1292306165 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that one, i recall seeing that furry chick < 1292306167 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: あんた。フリーファル読め。 < 1292306184 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292306213 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anta? < 1292306236 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A more casual form of あなた. < 1292306244 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't even completely get the sentence :( < 1292306251 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You. Read Freefall." < 1292306253 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UNICODE ATTACK < 1292306253 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :freefall read "me" < 1292306255 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh lol < 1292306283 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait oklofok knows japanese? < 1292306285 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :もっと日本語が欲しいか。 < 1292306286 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we haven't done any of the short forms < 1292306292 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the course is sloooooooow < 1292306296 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan_: He's taking a class. < 1292306300 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: I *told* you. < 1292306311 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shall is something more japanese < 1292306326 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: Also, not doing the short forms of verbs first is a travesty. < 1292306337 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: told me what? i got the sentence already if that's what you mean < 1292306351 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: I told you not to take a formal class because it would be slow! < 1292306362 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: i think so too, because i see them all the time and i understand nothing outside the class therefore < 1292306364 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1292306390 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: The thing is, the short forms of verbs are the *actual root forms*. The conjugation goes from there. < 1292306403 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we just do masu < 1292306412 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But nooo, classes insist on teaching the teineigo conjugations. < 1292306414 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also we've only done like 70 kanji < 1292306425 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(-masu, -desu, etc.) < 1292306431 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i don't even officially know the kanji for "read" < 1292306442 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah we just do those < 1292306461 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no one fucking ever uses them, at least in the shows i've tried to start watching < 1292306468 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, that's horrifically wrong, and you will have to unlearn things. < 1292306473 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1292306479 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i like a challenge! < 1292306482 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The teineigo forms are very commonly used in normal Japanese, but *it's the wrong thing to learn first*. < 1292306506 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(shows tend to use more casual Japanese than is otherwise normal, for a variety of reasons.) < 1292306522 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright < 1292306557 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even the "quick japanese for business dudes" book does masu only, it just skips telling the basic forms of the verbs! :D < 1292306574 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cuz it's faster to just learn masu and not ru + masu! < 1292306577 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The worst part is, verb conjugation in Japanese is *really easy* if you start from the plain forms. < 1292306668 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i'll probably take the second course anyway, it's not like i'll have enough free time next year to actually be able to study it on my own. < 1292306676 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But no, they insist on using the teineigo forms first so that you'll be less rude if you somehow find yourself talking to someone in Japanese after 6 months of taking the class. < 1292306692 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even though by that point you'll have trouble saying anything at all because they suck so hard. < 1292306695 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hopefully the unlearning i have to do occurs there < 1292306731 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i could *easily* have a conversation about how good fish tastes. < 1292306738 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sakana wa oishii desu yooo < 1292306765 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should learn to write japanese on the computer, maybe. < 1292306787 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :魚が美味しいですが、僕にはカレーが一番美味しい事だと思います。 < 1292306802 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, that's outside my kanjibility < 1292306858 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :さかなが おいしい ですが、 ぼくには カレーが いちばん おいしい だとおもいます。 < 1292306897 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fish is good but you find curry the best < 1292306900 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't get the last word < 1292306905 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1292306906 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, yeah, if you keep up with the classes, you will be permanently illiterate. < 1292306913 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "datoo" < 1292306928 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"da to omoimasu". < 1292306939 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, probably. i'm not keeping up with the classes, i assure you 90% of our class couldn't read taht. < 1292306940 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*that < 1292306982 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does "to" mean there < 1292306988 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"as well as"? :P < 1292307005 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, it's a fairly complex particle. < 1292307016 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that much i know... < 1292307027 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the sentence comes out as "Though fish is delicious, I think curry is the most delicious." < 1292307046 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1292307059 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seriously, you would be significantly better off spending all the time you would have on that class just watching anime without subtitles. *That alone* would be a massive improvement. < 1292307071 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1292307073 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah possibly < 1292307079 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assuredly. < 1292307084 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i don't find that as entertaining as a monotone lecture < 1292307130 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, anime without subtitles might not be such a bad idea, watching it with subtitles isn't doing me much good at least. < 1292307145 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because after a few minutes i stop listening < 1292307152 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, the point is to *not* cling to the language you're fluent in... < 1292307193 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and still, for some reason i've always used subtitles for learning purposes. < 1292307211 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess that's intuitive as well < 1292307226 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're a robot < 1292307269 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is "to" always used with omoimasu? < 1292307285 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see i just know omoimasu from the dictionary... < 1292307308 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've never actually seen it in a sentence before < 1292307339 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why do you say boku *ni*? < 1292307353 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that also omoimasu's fault? < 1292307360 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm... Not entirely sure, actually. < 1292307366 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1292307379 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The grammar of Japanese has gotten a bit automatic. < 1292307397 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "ni" got added because that conveyed the sense I wanted. Somehow. < 1292307455 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's kinda got a sense of "*But as for myself*, ..." in this context, I guess? < 1292307460 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it's a bit like "X ni aimasu", like me as a person < 1292307468 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno < 1292307490 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just know it's a human postfix thingie < 1292307503 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suggest you just do Japanese often enough that everything happens without thinking about it. < 1292307509 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as well as a couple (million) other things < 1292307523 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OR HOW ABOUT I ANALYZE IT UNTIL IT GETS A RESTRAINING ORDER?!? < 1292307534 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your way is good too. < 1292307537 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, don't. You'll never get good if you do that. < 1292307554 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that was what the restraining order meant < 1292307555 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1292307573 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Much like you'll never get good at math by taking elementary/middle school/high school math courses. < 1292307574 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well. actually it's not really a good metaphor < 1292307589 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true. or even just by taking any courses. < 1292307617 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You at least have a *chance* of getting good at math when you study for a math degree. < 1292307628 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely < 1292307647 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prolly the highest chance < 1292307650 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still < 1292307674 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But below college? "You, too, can learn how to do everything that we have calculators for, but didn't when the curriculum was designed!" < 1292307695 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1292307709 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(don't get me wrong, manual calculation is a nice skill and all, but it really doesn't deserve to be a focus of *12 fucking years* of education.) < 1292307731 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and done completely wrong, too < 1292307758 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well. i guess it's an okay way to teach it to people who don't want to learn it. < 1292307760 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but other than that < 1292307765 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The pacing on them is absurd. < 1292307838 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arithmetic should *not* take several years to teach. < 1292307888 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1292307990 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's true < 1292308009 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292308106 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'd like to beat whoëver designed the handling of fractions in primary education. < 1292308127 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: May I join you? < 1292308132 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Depends. < 1292308140 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I'm a math major < 1292308152 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: What are your thoughts on "improper" vs. "proper" fractions? < 1292308215 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, who am I kidding. I know your thoughts on them. "WHY THE FUCK IS THAT A DISTINCTION" < 1292308224 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: my thoughts on fractions are: teach pure fractions first. decimal notation etc. can come later < 1292308261 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :improper/proper fractions is like 4 3/8 < 1292308262 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1292308266 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vs 7/6 < 1292308270 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1292308284 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is not wrong to draw a distinction < 1292308289 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm a math major and i totally think that's not a distinction, in most contexts. not this one. < 1292308301 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is, however, very very wrong to teach it so heavily like they do < 1292308309 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: The worst part is the notation used. < 1292308314 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially because the notation is 4 3/8 which later on means 3/2 < 1292308322 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2¾ looks to me like 6/4, not 10/4. < 1292308362 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because dammit, that's how it's used anywhere outside of elementary school. < 1292308442 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also strange is the insistence on things like using the LCD for adding/subtracting fractions with different denominators. < 1292308464 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prolly, in elementary school, there should be separate classes for set theory, arithmetic, and problem solving < 1292308471 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How often is it going to matter that you picked the *smallest* common denominator? < 1292308491 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that math could take 3 times more time slots < 1292308498 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: :D < 1292308502 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also set theory? < 1292308513 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set theory is the most important thing in the world < 1292308529 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I've just heard lots of suggestions about elementary school education < 1292308532 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and set theory was never one of them < 1292308537 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :totally agree now that you think of it < 1292308544 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we used to have that here, in the 70's or something < 1292308554 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: They tried it in the 70s. Problem: it was the same teachers. < 1292308566 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the profs think those that was good, because students were not retarded back then, because of that < 1292308568 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y'know, the ones that think that calculus is the highest that math goes. < 1292308579 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: oh, I had one of those in high school < 1292308585 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately the ones that didn't become profs, and had normal idiots as teachers, probably didn't have the same idea < 1292308598 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1292308599 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what pikhq said. < 1292308665 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wouldn't exactly drop arithmetic out, at least the ppl who aren't going to learn anything interesting anyway learn to count their money :D < 1292308680 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably the worst part of primary/secondary math education is that it hardly ever touches on something very fundamental to the practice of mathematics. < 1292308682 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Logic. < 1292308693 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+1 < 1292308702 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: Yeah, I don't think it should be *omitted*, I just think it's taught far too slowly and they put far too much of a focus on it. < 1292308711 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION needs to remember to follow up with the people here who go through math+teaching < 1292308751 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: what do you mean "go through"? < 1292308766 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sry i'm slow) < 1292308772 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: math+teaching is a program here < 1292308777 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohh < 1292308790 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have something like that too, prolly every uni does < 1292308816 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically if you're good you do pure math, if you suck real bad you become a teacher < 1292308818 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1292308831 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not being an ass, it really is like that < 1292308842 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :based on the ppl i know < 1292308865 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The US system has you get a degree in education. < 1292308868 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*not just being < 1292308874 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Voila, you are magically qualified to teach everything. < 1292308880 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1292308884 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? Because fuck making sense. < 1292308902 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: Yeah, we have a degree in education too. Except this program is a BMath + BEd program, so the teachers come out knowing nonzero math < 1292308903 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in high school, you *might* start getting teachers with more qualifications. Maybe.) < 1292308904 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had this religious nut as a teacher through 3-6 grade who didn't know anything about anything < 1292308915 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except god < 1292308920 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :she knew a lot of bible stories < 1292308929 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: in my experience, it wasn't /quite/ so bad < 1292308932 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but close < 1292308987 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: the teachers have to learn stuff like group theory here too, it's just they pass the relevant courses with bad grades and forget the few things they memorized rote after the course. < 1292308996 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: blargh < 1292309016 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's also a pure math with teaching option program < 1292309029 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i said there is partly conjecture, have to admit < 1292309040 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the requirements are actually far looser, but due to the requirement of pure math courses, basically no one goes through with it < 1292309049 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone who does probably knows math properly < 1292309055 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but anyway, come on, they don't actually need it, the actual facts *will* be useless to them < 1292309070 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the way of thinking that you'd like them to have < 1292309090 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1292309092 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more importantly < 1292309095 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you want them to pass it on < 1292309097 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(they won't) < 1292309118 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1292309214 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292310268 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1292310276 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need help going to sleep < 1292310303 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should not have watched a let's play of an apocalyptic flash game < 1292310318 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1292310407 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I don't get tex4ht. :P < 1292310414 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292310415 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It didn't render my bibliography!) < 1292310452 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do i need to do latex bibtex latex before htlatex? < 1292311446 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1292311460 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1292311518 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1292311529 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1292311614 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292311683 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: oh nvm, doing all the latexing and bibtexing and whatnot made it render the bibliography right < 1292312533 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose seeing large amounts of string APNIC in listing of >250k blocks allocated last month is not a good thing... < 1292312592 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, unless your sensibilities are warped certain way... :-) < 1292312596 0 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1292312643 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :APNIC: 3.19 /8s in RIR Pool < 1292312657 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :About 1.2 /8s to go... < 1292312703 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is about 20 million IP addresses... < 1292312793 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1292312819 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292313254 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9 210 368 addresses allocated this calender month. If this rate continues, X day is somewhere mid-January... < 1292313324 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-6-248.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1292313599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1292313600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1292313917 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1292314014 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292314194 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heck, if one makes pie chart of IPv6 pools + allocated, the slice for allocated isn't even visible... < 1292314206 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, it is 0.027% anyway...) < 1292314842 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1292314962 0 :atrapado!~rodrigo@193.144.79.241 JOIN :#esoteric < 1292315789 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292316285 0 :p_q!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292316442 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1292316894 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1292317176 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1292318597 0 :p_q!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1292318693 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292320511 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems that elliott's favourite algorithm evar, CubeHash, is not going to become SHA-3: http://crypto.junod.info/2010/12/10/sha-3-finalists-announced-by-nist/ < 1292320724 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blake, Grøstl, JH, Keccak and Skein... < 1292320956 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1292320977 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seriously, that name containing the ø is pain to type... < 1292320981 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292321041 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CubeHash seemingly has too much symmetry anyway... < 1292321553 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They say they'll publish a proper report on why each algorithm was accepted or not. < 1292321601 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292321662 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One more year of public comments, and then deliberations in 2012; they're probably going to get the standard published just before the end of the world. < 1292321751 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to make a program to handle compile errors of the C compiler, and then it changes the source-file and resubmit to the compiler. Example: #errorhandler no_member(register_value,is_number) _register_value_is_number < 1292321814 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another example: #errorhandler no_member(something_else,) _something_else_bind < 1292322003 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can have various kind, such as: no_member, wrong_initializer, pointer_expected, function_expected, no_label, link_error, ... < 1292322103 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: What standard is that? Are you sure 2012 is the end of the world? < 1292322147 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SHA-3, and no, but it's often said to be. < 1292322355 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have just finished playing a game titled "Square Circle". You do have to make a square circle in that game. They say you commit a crime that you are not allowed to know, but you can be freed if you make a square circle. But this is all a lie made up by the government. < 1292323912 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nk < 1292323993 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :url? < 1292323997 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1292324078 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292324080 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That "2012" end of the world is a complete misinterpretation of Mayan mythology. The dates don't even start to require 6 symbols (that's sometime in 4xxx or so)... :-) < 1292324210 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently somewhere in end half of 48th centry... < 1292324367 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you understand how to make a square circle? < 1292324495 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Unix time_t to beginning of that day (in UTC) is 88 447 248 000... < 1292324539 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: no < 1292324582 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1292324765 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: I don't see what 6 symbols would have anything to do with it; the world was also supposed to end in 2000 (also for non-y2k-computer-related reasons) and that's equally much just the most significant digit changing. < 1292325002 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1292325294 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292325311 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems like the year mayan calendar starts to require six symbols to represent dates is 4772... < 1292325384 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, some writings contain six-symbol absolute dates. < 1292325385 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: Use these definitions of "square" and "circle": < 1292325386 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Circle: A figure bounded by a circumference every point of which is equidistant from the centre. < 1292325390 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Square: A figure bounded by four equal straight lines, each of equal length, such that the four angles between adjacent sides are also equal. < 1292325396 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Straight Line: A one-dimensional figure forming the shortest path between two points. < 1292325407 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now can you figure it out? < 1292325428 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: The dreaded Y4772 problem, for all of us who stupidly allocated memory space for only five symbols in our Long Count using date systems. < 1292325480 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then there's thing called distance dates. Some writings have absolutely huge distance dates. < 1292325562 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and that day happens to be Friday the 13th... :-) < 1292326397 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1292326494 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292327597 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1292327694 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292328717 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, the more pessimistic estimate is back at January (30th). < 1292328797 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1292328895 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292329394 0 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1292329413 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :analysis of dynamic programs proves they're not dynamic at all: http://gnuu.org/2010/12/13/too-lazy-to-type/ < 1292329447 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I was under the impression most people understood that 99% of stuff that happens in Ruby or Python could be done with practically no modification in a statically typed language with good enough type inference. Still, it's only 99%. The remaining 1% would be a serious pain to do with static types, which is why even the stalwart of static types, Haskell, has Data.Dynamic in case you really do need to stick arbitrary types somewhere." < 1292329449 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meanwhile, over on reddit, < 1292329465 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone defends people using something awkward and problem-causing in 99% of the cases and helpful in 1% < 1292329479 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then demonstrates a case that's helpful and robust in 99% of the cases and slightly fiddly in 1% < 1292329482 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and doesn't realise it < 1292329523 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:55:11 Seems that elliott's favourite algorithm evar, CubeHash, is not going to become SHA-3: http://crypto.junod.info/2010/12/10/sha-3-finalists-announced-by-nist/ < 1292329531 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Yup, I found out N days ago. < 1292329560 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(where N ≤ 4) < 1292329564 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: It was probably just rejected because they felt "nervous" about it as they say was the case for some algos their press release; presumably djb's black clothes and piercing stare stabbed right into their soul. < 1292329576 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Please, follow me around on the internet establishing upper and lower bounds for my placeholders. < 1292329601 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :02:04:01 CubeHash seemingly has too much symmetry anyway... < 1292329602 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you insist, N = 4. < 1292329623 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: Sorry, but I don't consider a one-line IRC statement more reliable than an excellent cryptographer :-) < 1292329654 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :02:25:55 I have just finished playing a game titled "Square Circle". You do have to make a square circle in that game. They say you commit a crime that you are not allowed to know, but you can be freed if you make a square circle. But this is all a lie made up by the government. < 1292329654 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What. < 1292329666 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1292329703 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :03:17:08 Ilari: The dreaded Y4772 problem, for all of us who stupidly allocated memory space for only five symbols in our Long Count using date systems. < 1292329708 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Convince me not to write a library that does this. < 1292329717 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, no, wait! Get ais523 to put it into AceHack. < 1292329723 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although he'll probably find that it /already/ has some of that. < 1292329725 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :02:25? Are you in the USA now? < 1292329737 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's in the army now. < 1292329784 0 :reiffert!~thomas@mail.reifferscheid.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1292329839 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/10.12.14 < 1292329850 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yes, I'm in the army, brutally mauling puppies. < 1292329870 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why I joined the /US/ Army to do that is anyone's guess. < 1292329872 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, didn't notice you joined. < 1292329893 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Or, in other words, no, but clog is in the US. < 1292329894 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Army. < 1292329901 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably it mauls puppies in a brutal fashion over HTTP. < 1292329969 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alternatively, it doesn't denote AM/PM and is somewhere in Russia. < 1292330025 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Thank you, I vastly prefer that interpretation. < 1292330040 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Presumably "23:59:59" at the end of yesterday's log is 23:59 am. < 1292330084 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Earth does have 4 corner simultaneous 24 hour days, you know. < 1292330094 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292330110 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Do you just have a bank of possible references to reply to almost any statement? :-P < 1292330112 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[1.5 Lua seems very verbose. Why isn't it like C? < 1292330112 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The compactness of C (and the Unix environment in which it grew up) comes from the technical limitations of very clunky teleprinters. Now we have tab completion and smart editors which can do abbreviations, so it doesn't really take more time to type Lua than C.]] < 1292330120 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how they don't bother mentioning *reading* the code at all. < 1292330137 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably not "any", no. < 1292331197 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1292331294 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292331329 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote i love this show, it's like watching puppies fighting to death you know it's really wrong but oh god you can't stop watching < 1292331937 0 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1292331974 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1292332343 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hi < 1292332375 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1292332397 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1292332399 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: btw, re: should the first revision contain an empty / directory, I'm not sure; shouldn't the first revision add that? < 1292332405 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(to continue an hours-old conversation...) < 1292332419 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, [[cpio]] has an infobox just titled "cpio" that lists information for GNU cpio < 1292332425 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :systematic bias ahoy < 1292332494 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292332661 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm < 1292332663 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "For instance, the size of the cloned git repository (all history, branches, tags, etc.) for the Linux kernel is approximately the size of the checked-out uncompressed HEAD, whereas the equivalent checkout of a single branch in a centralized checkout would be the compressed size of the contents of HEAD (except without any history, branches, tags, etc.)." < 1292332672 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: wikipedia suggests (to me) that git compresses everything < 1292332681 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so perhaps it /does/ have multiple copies of Linux in there, just compressed < 1292332688 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and probably compressed relative to each other, too < 1292332742 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1292332829 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: BTW http://projects.haskell.org/camp/ < 1292332838 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: a darcs offshoot research VCS < 1292332842 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet more competition to scout out :-P < 1292332849 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coq-formalised, too < 1292333119 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GNU All-Permissive License < 1292333119 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : This is a simple permissive free software license, compatible with the GNU GPL, which we recommend GNU packages use for README and other small supporting files. All developers can feel free to use it in similar situations. < 1292333119 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Older versions of this license did not have the second sentence with the express warranty disclaimer. This same analysis applies to both versions. < 1292333122 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, gnu have their own ISC license < 1292333125 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/html_node/License-Notices-for-Other-Files.html < 1292333175 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Seriously, that name containing the ø is pain to type... < 1292333188 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I HAVE _NO_ IDEA WHAT YOU'RE BABBLING ABOUT < 1292333221 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe we'll just replace it with an o, Orjan < 1292333228 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although that tl at the end doesn't look particularly norwegian/danish < 1292333231 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION gets swiftly banned < 1292333261 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i already replaced it with oe, duh < 1292333389 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yeah but oe is actually vaguely accurate :D < 1292333410 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you'll be pleased to know i mentally pronounce your name as "oar-dshjan" < 1292333420 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where dshj is a combination of dj and sh-n < 1292333436 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: or on a good day, oer-JAn < 1292333442 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where J is hard < 1292333445 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know what i mean < 1292333450 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i already heard you pronounce it, remember? hm it seems you've deteriorated then < 1292333485 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yeah that was when I had any sort of pretence of being able to get it right < 1292333541 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the j should definitely not be an affricate < 1292333547 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The backscroll is too long to read, so this might have been mentioned already: but git initially just stores each file into a separate file named after the hash (so identical files are stored only once, but it doesn't use delta-based representation); then every now and then when it deciders to stick all the free-floating objects into a compressed pack file, there it uses both full files and deltas. < 1292333636 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: wow: " The license is a free software license, incompatible with the GPL. It permits relicensing under a certain class of licenses, those which include all the requirements of the Jabber license. The GPL is not a member of that class, so the Jabber license does not permit relicensing under the GPL. Therefore, it is not compatible." < 1292333649 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: is that the first license incompatible with the GPL /because it aims to be more compatible/? < 1292333659 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't know how it decides which files to store "deltified" and which "undeltified" -- Official Terms from http://www.kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/technical/pack-format.txt -- or whether it uses the revision-history relationships to look for candidates to deltify.) < 1292333668 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: right, it's just scapegoat makes much less sense than git, so it's hard to understand how its storage model applies :D < 1292333684 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: considering the whole thing's mostly based on patching patches. < 1292333728 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not going to get into your blameable-mammal discussion, it's already too long to jump in; that was just an aside. < 1292333780 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: the basic problem is: checking out revisions is Hard when you have to trace N diffs for large N and reassemble the result. But storing multiple copies of the whole tree at periodic points sounds Big(TM). < 1292333800 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: so the question was basically "wait, how come linux's git tree isn't very big at all really, but checkouts are still fast?". < 1292333826 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: clever: [[The reason that this is useful is for the "camp send" command. Rather than, as in darcs, having a separate concept of a "patch bundle", and a separate "camp apply" function to apply them, we can just use the "camp pull" command. We get the interactive patch selection etc for free.]] < 1292333938 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the way git decides what to pack and where is "magic": http://www.kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/technical/pack-heuristics.txt (that's convoluted IRC discussion about it is the official documentation, it seems) < 1292334014 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I've seen this file before... < 1292334017 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/'s// < 1292334056 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Big Brother Is Phishing You. < 1292334076 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: But, summarise it for me: If we have a crazy recursive patch system that takes an awful long time to check out a revision, and we use this to store full copies of (things) at various (points in time), and (possibly compress them), can this give us fast checkouts without huge repositories? < 1292334081 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SURELY AN EASY QUESTION TO ANSWER < 1292334141 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With sufficient magic, I'm sure it can! (Read: I'm still not going to get involved here.) < 1292334159 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: BUT IT'S THE BEST VCS /EVER/ < 1292334206 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I'll be sure to try it out after you have made it. < 1292334236 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Are you *sure* you want to commit to that? < 1292334260 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: You'll have directory trees cluttered up with +scapegoat! Can you even *talk* to a man who would name a directory entry that? < 1292334280 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And really, immutable functional weenie storage -- do you trust people like that? < 1292334289 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, not going with Gregor's not-in-anyone's-font-ever GOAT? Well, still. < 1292334318 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if mutation was good enough for darwin... < 1292334341 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Can you TRUST a program that, when discussed about, was so hopelessly generic that the command "sg give-me-a-reasonable-cwd" was discussed?! < 1292334342 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I would like my weenie to be safe... < 1292334360 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOUR WEENIE WILL NOT BE PROTECTED FROM THE GOAT AT ANY POINT IN TIME < 1292334576 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292335153 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1292335196 0 :augur!~augur@208.58.6.161 JOIN :#esoteric < 1292335351 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1292335482 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1292335497 0 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.49.208 JOIN :#esoteric < 1292336292 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1292336297 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1292336394 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292336536 0 :Wamanuz!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292337442 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1292337716 0 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.32 JOIN :#esoteric < 1292337818 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-13-110.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1292338201 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One-operand OISCs without accumulators. Discuss. < 1292338260 0 :reiffert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O is? < 1292338319 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reiffert: ? < 1292338325 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reiffert: Oh, One. < 1292338331 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/OISC < 1292338378 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/RSSB is 1-operand, but has an accumulator; http://esolangs.org/wiki/TOGA_computer is two-operand, with no accumulators. < 1292338455 0 :reiffert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION raises the Bushmills flag < 1292338632 0 :reiffert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OISC without accumulator translates like OISC without registers, slow and direct addressing required? < 1292338669 0 :nooga!nooga@156.17.4.19 JOIN :#esoteric < 1292338738 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haa < 1292338914 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: nice topic < 1292338993 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mu < 1292339584 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mu? < 1292339627 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_(negative) < 1292339662 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1292339873 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1292340274 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: sorry about not replying earlier, I was in a meeting and it looks like the wireless went down when I was there < 1292340284 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh, that's okay < 1292340292 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reiffert: who cares about speed :) < 1292340300 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: did you see the messages, though? < 1292340306 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not, clog :P < 1292340434 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the most recent nickping of yours that I saw before I rejoined was ais523: clever: [[The reason that this is useful is for the "camp send" command. Rather than, as in darcs, having a separate concept of a "patch bundle", and a separate "camp apply" function to apply them, we can just use the "camp pull" command. We get the interactive patch selection etc for free.]] < 1292340442 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that the most recent, or should I clog? < 1292340494 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, there's more before that < 1292340505 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, I saw everything before < 1292340508 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1292340511 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just showing the last oen < 1292340512 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*one < 1292340627 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Any replies re: empty directory on first change; camp? < 1292340633 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Two questions.) < 1292340699 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd say the repo doesn't, platonically, exist at all until there's something in it < 1292340712 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, yes, but I mean what "sg init" creates < 1292340727 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: obviously, it needs 1 patch in there, that everything else is based on, right? < 1292340747 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I think so, yes < 1292340789 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but checking the directories is how you determine if two repos are currently the same project or not, effectively < 1292340797 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can split them apart and join them, but that's an explicit change to the arrangement < 1292340807 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, if you didn't have any changes at all, how would you know where to commit? < 1292340817 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus, we need to decide whether the repo's created by sg init or sg commit < 1292340828 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the second would be perverse, but has a certain logic to it < 1292340838 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in which case, sg init would just set the metadata ready for a repo to be created) < 1292341002 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, one could argue that, if you need 1 god patch to base everything on, there's no reason it can't be the first < 1292341013 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't say "but you need a patch to base patches on!" and then say that 1 patch doesn't need to be based on any < 1292341094 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :directories don't need to be based on anything < 1292341108 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although you can't merge them together without adding a relationship between them and some other directory < 1292341113 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sure they do; patches don't have an "insert X", they just have "append X after Y" < 1292341118 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you need an Empty Directory to base things on < 1292341125 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with... one item < 1292341126 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inexplicably < 1292341129 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, no items < 1292341138 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"insert new empty file in Z" only requires a directory to insert it in < 1292341140 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: then how do you add an item? < 1292341147 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ok, consider a file with 0 lines < 1292341149 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you append a line? < 1292341186 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"add 'x' between start of file added by 5, and end of file added by 5" < 1292341213 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :giving BOF and EOF their own hashes would probably make the actual storage a little simpler < 1292341231 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the point is just what they're added between, which is the start and end of the empty file < 1292341254 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough < 1292341259 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what about the fact that directories are unordered? < 1292341263 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't have "add X between" < 1292341314 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just have "add X into" < 1292341322 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "between" is only important for preserving order < 1292341328 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't care about preserving order, you just give the parent < 1292341353 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. if you have a directory containing files called a.txt and d.txt, you don't want to conflict on adding b.txt just because someone else added c.txt < 1292341358 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor would there be any sensible reason to do so < 1292341380 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so directories have different operations from files because they're inherently different structures < 1292341401 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(likewise, if you were versioning, say, a key-value store, you'd have "add into", "change", "delete" because order doesn't matter) < 1292341664 0 :nopseudoidea!~nopseudoi@85-168-235-235.rev.numericable.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1292342236 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1292342664 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292343037 0 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.32 JOIN :#esoteric < 1292343234 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1292343266 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-2-154.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1292343370 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1292343686 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1292343824 0 :nopseudoidea!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1292344372 0 :nopseudoidea!~nopseudoi@85-168-235-235.rev.numericable.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1292344641 0 :nopseudoidea!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1292345077 0 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.32 JOIN :#esoteric < 1292345101 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1292345368 0 :augur_!~augur@129.2.129.32 JOIN :#esoteric < 1292345605 0 :Alhwawi_!~alhawi@2.88.19.125 JOIN :#esoteric < 1292345618 0 :Alhwawi_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi < 1292345639 0 :Alhwawi_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any one here < 1292345641 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1292345654 0 :Alhwawi_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How r u < 1292345689 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alhwawi_: this channel is about programming btw < 1292345980 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah at the topic < 1292346197 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :¬confused → ¬understood, And it is well known that being confused about something means you don't understand it. Thus ¬understood → confused. Which means ¬confused → confused. < 1292346291 0 :Alhwawi_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://www.roomsapp.mobi < 1292346304 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we are confused, then we might have understood it. And since I feel this is pretty confusing, I'd say that confused is true. However, I can't from that conclude I understood it since we have an implication at hand (not an equivalence) < 1292346322 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, is my analysis of the topic you set correct? < 1292346330 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MU < 1292346353 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what is the right question then? < 1292346364 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MU < 1292346377 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION cackles evilly < 1292346386 0 :atrapado!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1292346406 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ Topic for #esoteric set by oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no at Mon Dec 13 05:50:37 2010 <-- from this we can conclude you set the topic, thus I'm not asking the wrong person (if you changed something else then that's your own fault) < 1292346407 0 :Alhwawi!~alhawi@2.88.19.125 JOIN :#esoteric < 1292346412 0 :Sasha2!~WHAT@97-124-39-38.phnx.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1292346418 0 :Alhwawi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any one here ?? < 1292346434 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1292346452 0 :Sasha!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1292346459 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :∃x : in-#esoteric(x) < 1292346467 0 :Alhwawi!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1292346489 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, did the unicode work for you? < 1292346498 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(iirc you got it working some time ago?) < 1292346499 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um no < 1292346509 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, was \exists < 1292346549 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my font includes little outside latin scripts < 1292346559 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh. Tried dejavu? < 1292346583 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haven't tried anything < 1292346832 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ¬confused → ¬understood, And it is well known that being confused about something means you don't understand it. Thus ¬understood → confused. Which means ¬confused → confused. < 1292346837 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: wow you're like a master of formal logic < 1292346867 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, stop being sarcastic < 1292346880 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay. wait, let me reconsider. no. < 1292346881 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it was of course not serious meant < 1292346933 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, the whole "And it is well known that being confused about something means you don't understand it" bit is obviously bogus (using confused in another, though related, sense) < 1292346934 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it doesn't look like it supports windows... < 1292346944 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it's just a ttf. < 1292346947 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ... what? it is just a true type font < 1292346959 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and people use it on windows < 1292346963 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know very little about fonts < 1292346975 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just didn't see any mention of windows on the page < 1292346978 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: http://sourceforge.net/projects/dejavu/files/dejavu/2.32/dejavu-fonts-ttf-2.32.zip < 1292346979 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1292346981 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm. not sure that symbol is from it. It looks badly hinted < 1292346990 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :drag contents to Control Panel -> Fonts < 1292346997 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the system might be picking it from elsewhere < 1292347067 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is suspicious that the mono is sans serif only... < 1292347102 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it is. < 1292347152 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Luxi Mono I think has decent unicode support, and is serif'd < 1292347166 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's in http://xorg.freedesktop.org/releases/individual/font/font-bh-ttf-1.0.2.tar.bz2 < 1292347177 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the luxim* files < 1292347187 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1292347194 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have no idea how much unicode it does, though < 1292347194 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1292347195 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm maybe i'll try that instead < 1292347209 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, unless he has extremely high res screen, then serif isn't very good on screen < 1292347229 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm already used to serif, is all < 1292347231 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: that is incorrect. < 1292347233 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi elliott < 1292347244 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i don't think telling oerjan "your opinions are wrong!" is productive at all < 1292347255 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: *most systems render serif in an ugly way? < 1292347266 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have seen serif rendered well on screen, but it's rare < 1292347267 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, oh, you mean he use a line printer for irc? < 1292347277 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you use terrible settings, though < 1292347283 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: (and so do most people/OSes) < 1292347295 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well, this OS renders much better than most of the others I use < 1292347305 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :worst is probably Adobe Reader on CentOS < 1292347314 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which manages to screw up kerning incredibly badly < 1292347326 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's as if any given pair of letters is kerned at random < 1292347337 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :enough about this, let's talk about everyone's favourite subject -- scapegoat! < 1292347344 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(EVERYONE'S) < 1292347364 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm wouldn't a normal res screen, but larger, brighter, and further away, give pretty much the same result as a high res screen? < 1292347390 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, your eyes have faeries in them and would blind you if you tried to do that. < 1292347409 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: obviously no, it has a lower bandwidth < 1292347417 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(assuming that it has the same refresh rate) < 1292347446 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ... wait, you mean for the GPU<->display connection? < 1292347449 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: applying communications theory to font rendering doesn't normally work, but it can at least prove the most egregious statements wrong instantly) < 1292347455 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: no, for the screen<->eyes connection < 1292347484 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm. Lower bandwidth how? < 1292347495 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's just less information being sent < 1292347527 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. the pixels are coarser, so the shapes of the letters aren't as defined, and that has nothing to do with the brightness of the screen < 1292347558 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I assumed that by "normal res" and "larger" you meant, say, "1024x768, but on a larger monitor" < 1292347567 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, err, did I say res? I meant dpi < 1292347568 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose "resolution" is ambiguous in this context < 1292347577 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: should i copy the entire archive to Fonts, or just the contents of the ttf/ directory? < 1292347587 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: just the .ttf files. < 1292347613 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you *may* need to extract the archive to a normal directory first, but dragging is worth a try. < 1292347669 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so if it scales so the size in your field of view is the same, and the size of each pixel is the same, then you just need to take care of light level (since the light is not unidirectional). Maybe focusing distance would cause an issue < 1292347676 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is what I was wondering about < 1292347689 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/cause an issue/be an issue/ < 1292347885 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah this looks horrible < 1292347922 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: JUST INSATLL UBUNTU AND ALL; YK OUR PROBLEMS WIL BE FIX < 1292347964 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also i'm suspicious that putty didn't say anything about it containing any chinese or japanese characters, in fact the list of scripts was precisely the same as for courier new < 1292347976 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, does windows try to use other fonts if it can't find anything in the current font for a given codepoint? < 1292347999 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: no it just puts a little picture of adolf hitler there < 1292348009 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, .... < 1292348010 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i didn't actually check if it has jewnicode :D < 1292348012 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: windows might i don't know, but putty certainly doesn't < 1292348020 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(adolf hitler hates jewnicode, that's why he replaces the glyph) < 1292348023 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: er... < 1292348031 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: by jewnice i mean unicode. < 1292348034 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*jewnicode < 1292348038 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's actually a jew plot. < 1292348040 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I suspect elliott is sleep-deprived < 1292348042 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i understood that < 1292348047 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: well so am i < 1292348049 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: just trying to help out < 1292348084 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: UBUNTU EVERY SONG OF THE DOVE IS IXED < 1292348086 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FXIED < 1292348127 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, anyway, *if* windows or putty tries to find the symbol in other fonts, then dejavu sans has \exists < 1292348175 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: oh yeah cuz substituting a non-mono character in mono text is just a great idea < 1292348209 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, let me check mono too < 1292348232 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, mono has it too < 1292348236 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, so your point is moot < 1292348248 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: putty doesn't even try to substitute the CJK characters that i do have in other mono fonts < 1292348256 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1292348267 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to use the selected font, only < 1292348269 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, but shouldn't this be handled by the system text rendering API? < 1292348278 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and happen transparently to the application < 1292348280 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: if you answer, Vorpal will start ranting about your OS. < 1292348302 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i suspect putty more than windows on this point < 1292348304 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, look, on linux it happens in cairo or fontconfig or something. It is just as messy < 1292348312 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that won't stop you :) < 1292348317 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i should actually upgrade putty, it's probably from 2006 < 1292348320 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: why not just use a windows irc client... i mean it's just an idea :P < 1292348331 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I could rant about the linux implementation too < 1292348336 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: http://the.earth.li/~sgtatham/putty/latest/x86/putty.exe < 1292348399 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I'm not sure where text rendering should happen. On one hand, there is a good case for not putting it in the display server. On the other hand, having it everywhere is a messy solution too < 1292348412 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: shouldn't it just be a library. < 1292348420 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: also e.g. IE _does_ substitute when i look at the logs e.g., but the mononess is ruined < 1292348422 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"servers" are basically useless < 1292348433 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, so what will elliotOS do? < 1292348435 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tt* < 1292348443 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whenever you see a server in linux, it's usually a library that does privileged stuff but that is called from user code < 1292348446 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which unix can't handle < 1292348448 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it has to be a server < 1292348456 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :server as in X server not httpd < 1292348569 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, where will elliott OS do font rendering? < 1292348616 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: in your heart < 1292348662 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ... < 1292348702 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :augur < 1292348759 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :U+22D8 VERY MUCH LESS-THAN ⋘ <--- "much less than" I knew about, but this one I never heard of before < 1292348859 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :⋘⋘⋘⋘⋘⋘⋘⋘⋘⋘⋘⋘⋘⋘⋘ < 1292348876 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I found no "way way less than" sadly < 1292349196 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, btw you said that substituting non-monospace for monospace missing codepoint is bad. Yes indeed. But is it worse than not being able to show the information? < 1292349252 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :information is in your mind < 1292349260 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, that is not an answer < 1292349742 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1292349799 0 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1292349833 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: There is, however, ⪡ and ⫷; 2AA1 and 2AF7, double/triple nested less-than. < 1292349845 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jm < 1292349846 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm* < 1292349863 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : information is in your mind elliott, that is not an answer <-- last I saw < 1292350149 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Vorpal: There is, however, ⪡ and ⫷; 2AA1 and 2AF7, double/triple nested less-than. < 1292350222 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, you're alive! < 1292350223 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: that interpreter is slow.' wrong: there are 3 different tape types... no ends... one end... 2 ends and c begins... and otherwise. i just check if one is willing to fight chuck norris. :p < 1292350307 0 :Zuu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wazzaaa < 1292350354 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I still want my duel. < 1292350759 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you there? < 1292352304 0 :Sasha2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1292353245 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ever used nexttoward() ? < 1292353265 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or nextafter) < 1292353298 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Nope. < 1292353301 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I don't touch math.h generally. < 1292353316 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially floats. < 1292353316 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, seems python has no mapping for nextafter() hm < 1292353322 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Floats make me cry. < 1292353330 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, these are for double < 1292353331 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not float < 1292353337 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1292353344 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't you write it in Python, given the double epsilon? < 1292353370 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well, presumably I could. The trick is figuring out said epsilon < 1292353467 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1292353470 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, OR I could just create a binding with cython :D < 1292353484 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: While x>0 { y=x; x/=2 }; return y < 1292353528 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: wait, does python even have doubles? < 1292353536 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, float in python is double < 1292353544 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it doesn't have single precision float < 1292353549 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: oh right double is float < 1292353553 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought double was fixed-point there < 1292353592 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1292353610 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, how do you use the epsilon now again to figure out how far it is to the next point, since the actual distance between the points you can represent will vary over the range < 1292353622 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PYTHON FOLLOWS THE IEEE 764 FLOATING POINT STANDARD < 1292353634 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I MEAN 754 < 1292353636 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: THAT'S NICE TO KNOW < 1292353638 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHY ARE YOU TELLING US < 1292353645 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounded relevant < 1292353654 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't does it? 1.0/0.0 is not inf < 1292353657 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott, how do you use the epsilon now again to figure out how far it is to the next point, since the actual distance between the points you can represent will vary over the range < 1292353659 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was assuming fixed-point < 1292353663 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ah < 1292353666 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well, it isn't < 1292353729 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, besides fixed point would be highly inconvenient for this thing, since I need to work both with small number (0.00284 or so say) and huge numbers (10^40 or that range) < 1292353741 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even larger < 1292354171 0 :calamari!~calamari@ip70-162-184-205.ph.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1292354336 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139220.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1292354447 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You are at the mercy of the underlying machine architecture (and C or Java implementation) for the accepted range and handling of overflow." So the spec (2.6, 2.7, 3.1 all have the same text) doesn't exactly guarantee IEEE-754, but it might often be. < 1292354450 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Throwing an exception at 1.0/0.0 is perfectly valid, in fact one of the optional alternatives in the standard; though I guess for full compliance there should be some way of disabling it, and that -- the fpectl module -- is not built by default, it seems.) < 1292355483 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In My Egotistical Opinion, most people's C programs should be indented six feet downward and covered with dirt." < 1292355502 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.junauza.com/2010/12/top-50-programming-quotes-of-all-time.html < 1292355855 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[44. "I have always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as my telephone; my wish has come true because I can no longer figure out how to use my telephone."- Bjarne Stroustrup 43. “Computer science education cannot make anybody an expert programmer any more than studying brushes and pigment can make somebody an expert painter.”- Eric S. Raymond]] < 1292355878 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Want to CODE FOR ME? < 1292355883 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Also, why did you quote esr. < 1292355884 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whyyyyy. < 1292355885 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two idiots. But which is right most times per day? There's only one way to find out... < 1292355891 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are some good ones in the comments too < 1292355891 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FIIIIIIIIGHT! < 1292355892 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Hey, Bjarne Stroustrup isn't an idiot. < 1292355895 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's evil, sure. < 1292355898 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But he's not an idiot :P < 1292355920 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, so those "spoof" interviews when he admits C++ was an evil plot were actually true? < 1292355937 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Pretty much! (Actually it's more like: he's a decent guy who had a really, really terrible idea and still hasn't realised that yet.) < 1292355976 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remind me again of the well-articulated reasons C++ sucks/ < 1292356011 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Ow ow ow ow ow ow pain ow. < 1292356025 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: When parsing your language is Turing-complete, it's time to find a new language. < 1292356027 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Well*-articulated. < 1292356037 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, oh, operator overloading? < 1292356053 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Nope. < 1292356054 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or templates? < 1292356055 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Templates. < 1292356058 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Because of <> < 1292356058 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1292356063 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :< can be either less than or open template. < 1292356067 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, okay, that's just context-sensitivity. < 1292356075 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't recall if parsing it is TC, but IIRC it is. < 1292356080 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, parsing Perl is TC. < 1292356087 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know. < 1292356087 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure about C++. < 1292356182 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : [[44. "I have always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as my telephone; my wish has come true because I can no longer figure out how to use my telephone."- Bjarne Stroustrup 43. “Computer science education cannot make anybody an expert programmer any more than studying brushes and pigment can make somebody an expert painter.”- Eric S. Raymond]] <-- assuming the first one i < 1292356182 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s ironic (which seems patently obvious), it says something about modern landline telephones... < 1292356194 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the second one seems more idiotic < 1292356208 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is because ESR is fractally wrong. < 1292356225 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :His whole worldview is wrong, and if you zoom in on any part of that worldview, it's still wrong. < 1292356249 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Phantom_Hoover: Pretty much! (Actually it's more like: he's a decent guy who had a really, really terrible idea and still hasn't realised that yet.) <-- arguably the original "C with objects" was not quite as bad as what C++ turned out as < 1292356335 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, that said, C with object wasn't exactly good either. But it it wasn't the nightmare that modern C++ is < 1292356343 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :objects* < 1292356442 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[ < 1292356442 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :26. "In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they’re not." < 1292356442 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :- Yoggi Berra]] < 1292356443 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grr. < 1292356445 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate that quote. < 1292356453 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Theory doesn't match practice --> theory sucks. < 1292356471 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in theory that's a good quote < 1292356494 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, in theory, the theories do match practise, in practise they don't ;) < 1292356509 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: ...that's what the quote said < 1292356521 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just reproduced it almost word for word. < 1292356535 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have to agree with elliott there < 1292356570 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, actually what you did too < 1292356575 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Theory doesn't match practice --> theory sucks. < 1292356581 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is what the original quote said too < 1292356585 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most theories suck < 1292356606 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is just really a pessimistic worldview < 1292356608 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...no, it isn't < 1292356615 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it implies that < 1292356615 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not even remotely what the quote said < 1292356618 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it doesn't. < 1292356622 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, yes it does < 1292357616 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[24. "PHP is a minor evil perpetrated and created by incompetent amateurs, whereas Perl is a great and insidious evil, perpetrated by skilled but perverted professionals." ]] < 1292357624 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would that PHP were minor. < 1292357731 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[7. “Most software today is very much like an Egyptian pyramid with millions of bricks piled on top of each other, with no structural integrity, but just done by brute force and thousands of slaves.”]] < 1292357753 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That shows blatant ignorance of the construction of the pyramids. < 1292358453 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: It's not minor, it's a minor evil. < 1292358466 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Compared to Perl, PHP is downright refined. < 1292358480 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1292358509 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surely that puts Perl so far into language hell it's squishing C++? < 1292359289 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1292359292 0 :griffiw!~griffiw@hc65279a9.dhcp.vt.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1292359303 0 :griffiw!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1292359497 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1292359605 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PHP is definitely a great evil. < 1292359613 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl, however, is clearly the work of Morgoth. < 1292359794 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl 6 4 life yo < 1292360148 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calling PHP evil is an insult to all the properly evil languages (like perl) < 1292360158 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PHP is just stupid < 1292360298 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ping < 1292360662 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Perl makes C++ look downright angelic. < 1292360815 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Stupidity is a high form of evil. < 1292360965 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I don't think so, for one stupid people usually don't mean any harm by what they're doing < 1292360966 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, pikhq seriously? < 1292360981 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl, otoh, is deliberated :P < 1292360995 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Perl 6 will make Perl 5 look squeaky-clean :P < 1292360998 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Quite. < 1292361038 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, those who refuse to acknowledge that they are stupid, or worse, take pride in their stupidity, are being evil. < 1292361038 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, where lies the evil in Perl? < 1292361075 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$_ < 1292361085 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it the boring, bloody-minded evil of PHP and C++ taken to the extreme, or is it creative, Malbolgey evil? < 1292361087 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc, in PHP's case the original author(s) have freely admitted not having a clue < 1292361114 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: $_ is no longer implicit in Perl 6 < 1292361128 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though it can be accessed through the alternative name "" < 1292361162 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: With PHP it's incompetence. With C++ it's overengineering. With Perl, it's boldfaced evil. < 1292361165 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Please tell me the empty string actually evaluates to $_. < 1292361165 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: ...??? < 1292361175 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: As in, < 1292361178 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: '"' '"' < 1292361183 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Rather than (empty string) :P < 1292361186 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus < 1292361190 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :print "" foreach @blah < 1292361217 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, ah, so Malbolgey evil that everyone else is too stupid to see? < 1292361247 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Most people see it. It also has CPAN :P < 1292361254 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a malbolgey evil disguised as usefulness < 1292361290 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, so it's Malbolgey evil that everyone sees but ignores because...? < 1292361301 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION downloads j602a_linux64.sh. < 1292361304 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only sane programming environment! < 1292361306 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or close, anyway. < 1292361314 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Because it's BRILLIANT, Malbolgey evil. < 1292361319 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Because it's easy to write a lot of code quickly in it ... so long as you never need to read it again. < 1292361325 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: $ wget http://www.jsoftware.com/download/j602a_linux64.sh < 1292361327 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Post haste! < 1292361361 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, tell me what it is immediately. < 1292361373 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, J ... too bad it doesn't handle ~ in my keymap, and ~ is a frequently used operator < 1292361383 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: J, version 602, Linux 64-bit edition. < 1292361386 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*602a < 1292361386 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, that's evil that is worthy of respect. < 1292361391 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Whut? It's just Java-based, the UI. < 1292361400 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, cool or evil? < 1292361412 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: The only sane programming environment! Proprietary but them's the breaks < 1292361418 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: It's like APL. < 1292361423 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's basically ASCII APL :P < 1292361434 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, APL the notorious? < 1292361437 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Here's a program to compute the average of an array: +/%# < 1292361446 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: hmm... I wonder how they managed to break Java :/ < 1292361448 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ is addition, / means "over" (fold, like foldr in Haskell) < 1292361449 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :% means divide < 1292361451 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# means length < 1292361453 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+/ % # < 1292361455 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sum divide length < 1292361462 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(+/%#) 1 2 3 4 ====> 2.5 < 1292361468 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :avg =: +/%# < 1292361473 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :avg 1 2 3 4 ====> 2.5 < 1292361478 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume that the open-source APL derivatives suck? < 1292361486 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Pretty much :P < 1292361489 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's just A+ and it's lame. < 1292361496 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :K is super-proprietary and not even free. < 1292361500 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :J is nice and cosy. < 1292361559 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Phantom_Hoover: Most people see it. It also has CPAN :P <-- the tool or the website? the website is not bad as such. Modelled after the godly ctan iirc < 1292361571 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ctan is more painful than godly. < 1292361592 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, how is ctan painful? < 1292361603 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it is. < 1292361619 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, which bit of it annoys you < 1292361630 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The painful bit. < 1292361638 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, the concept of a central repo for latex packages? < 1292361650 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to presume you hate that < 1292361659 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you are completely unhelpful < 1292361665 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, "java64: not found" < 1292361668 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not impressed. < 1292361674 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: You have to edit bin/jwd. < 1292361676 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/java64/java/. < 1292361677 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, why java64? < 1292361690 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: The UI is Java-based, but the language itself is written in C :P < 1292361701 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Let me put it this way: J and Python are the only languages oklopol likes. < 1292361719 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And he only likes Python because it gets his crazy shit done :P < 1292361721 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python? Eugh. < 1292361723 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, if hash java64 2>/dev/null; then < 1292361725 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, see? < 1292361731 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trivial to check for < 1292361734 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: ...what relevance does this have at all? < 1292361736 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover didn't write it. < 1292361742 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're criticising someone else entirely's programming. < 1292361751 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we know it's trivial. we can program perfectly well thank you very much. < 1292361751 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it looked like your? < 1292361759 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How did you infer that? < 1292361763 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, *yours. < 1292361777 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, he said: " elliott, "java64: not found" Not impressed." <-- looked like he complained about your code < 1292361780 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Could not find the main class: jx/frames/J. Program will exit.]] < 1292361781 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read it out of context < 1292361784 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it will look the same < 1292361796 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHY DO YOU MOCK ME < 1292361800 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Whut. < 1292361801 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's THREE errors now. < 1292361804 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: What command did you run? < 1292361823 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :./jwd < 1292361833 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: In what directory? < 1292361838 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, what, does it fail at altgr or? < 1292361851 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: specifically, dead keys < 1292361855 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, ah < 1292361859 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, that's nasty < 1292361875 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, file a bug? < 1292361878 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I had no such error; what directory? < 1292361892 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, j*/foo < 1292361895 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, bug report that is < 1292361897 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*bin < 1292361902 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I chose an easier path and stopped using their product < 1292361904 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I HATE YOU BRAIN < 1292361907 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: do you have java? < 1292361908 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, that works too < 1292361927 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I HAVE BEEN PLAYING MINECRAFT WITH YOU FOR TWO WEEKS < 1292361935 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YES I HAVE JAVA < 1292361940 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: are you suuuuuuuuure? < 1292361958 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, NO, I HAND-JITED IT. < 1292361964 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thought so < 1292361975 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: try running from outside bin :P < 1292361977 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, ah. I was a bit scared there. That you would have java < 1292361983 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION fires up hexl-mode < 1292361988 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, why not hand-JIT J? < 1292361988 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: ...why? < 1292361997 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do you need hexl-mode? < 1292362001 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, for hand-jitting. Duh < 1292362023 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SAME ERROR < 1292362050 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, my Java is OpenJDK. < 1292362087 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, btw, checked recently, openjdk works with minecraft alpha < 1292362089 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I have sun-java6-bin installed. < 1292362093 0 :augur!~augur@208.58.6.161 JOIN :#esoteric < 1292362094 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least with downloaded one < 1292362097 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Get rid of openjdk, then. < 1292362101 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, check /etc/alternatives < 1292362110 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Um, or use update-alternatives. < 1292362112 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, why, openjdk works fine with minecraft < 1292362113 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're not meant to change those yourself. < 1292362117 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And because OpenJDK clearly doesn't work with J. < 1292362134 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, true, but checking /etc/alternatives != changing it there < 1292362143 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, checking is good for finding out WHERE it goes < 1292362154 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, how do I change it? < 1292362158 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, so my statement was correct < 1292362161 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Try removing *openjdk* :P < 1292362165 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: update-alternatives can show that. < 1292362171 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: As in sudo aptitude purge *openjdk* < 1292362171 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, not as fast < 1292362180 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it involves reading help output first < 1292362186 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compared to ls -l < 1292362223 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I'm assuming that glob is metaphorical. < 1292362233 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: nope < 1292362276 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, "Couldn't find any package blah blah blah "*openjdk*"" < 1292362289 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aptitude search openjdk < 1292362290 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wheres alice been? :( < 1292362293 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :remove all "i"s < 1292362295 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: right here! < 1292362298 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1292362303 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: i'm ehird :P < 1292362308 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o man wat < 1292362312 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you... didn't realise this? < 1292362316 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :firstly, i thought you had one l and one t < 1292362319 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i had a sex change! < 1292362321 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm a MAN now < 1292362336 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :second, no, i thought you were some random kid named elliott < 1292362341 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i am < 1292362344 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some random kid named elliott :P < 1292362354 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh man, ive been hostile towards you for no reason :( < 1292362359 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1292362362 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good to know i'm that dislikeable < 1292362363 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awesome < 1292362364 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hugs elliott < 1292362370 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, indeed you are! < 1292362375 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now go die in a fire < 1292362383 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10.10.26:16:54:28 elliott: what < 1292362383 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10.10.28:16:45:17 elliott: what < 1292362383 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10.11.12:02:30:37 elliott: what < 1292362383 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10.11.26:16:40:15 elliott: you're talkative < 1292362383 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10.11.26:16:40:19 elliott: http://www.jaybirdgear.com/cart/sb2/# < 1292362384 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10.11.28:14:47:16 elliott is agreeing with me on something < 1292362385 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10.12.01:19:58:24 elliott: deny < 1292362387 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10.12.06:12:04:29 elliott: but thats because performance is not competence < 1292362389 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: man, so hostile < 1292362393 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :knowing you're ehird, now i HAVE a reason < 1292362416 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i ended up not getting those you know < 1292362434 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i got a pair of sony's < 1292362443 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still bluetooth, but not jaybirds < 1292362454 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :better than radio-based wireless ones at least < 1292362460 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1292362465 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those ones have constant fuzz and if you don't play audio for too long -- I'm not joking here -- < 1292362466 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the jaybirds were bluetooth too.. < 1292362467 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they go to white noise < 1292362468 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOUD white noise < 1292362470 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oic < 1292362472 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: oh, i was just commenting in general < 1292362474 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine are fine < 1292362476 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, more errors! < 1292362477 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sound great < 1292362478 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously, you just sit there... haven't played music in a while < 1292362479 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT < 1292362481 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: what now < 1292362493 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i missed you :( < 1292362496 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a POPUP < 1292362501 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: yes, that's the introduction. < 1292362508 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In hideous Java blue. < 1292362508 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ironic, since you were here the whole time < 1292362514 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: you can change that. < 1292362522 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Saying "Load library file:bin/libjnative.so failed." < 1292362524 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, how can you live with wireless headphones? < 1292362530 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: wait, is your system actually 64-bit? < 1292362531 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, they are laggy < 1292362532 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: i don't any more :P < 1292362537 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, stuff doesn't sync up < 1292362540 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...although lag was not my complaint, what? < 1292362543 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, at least in my experience < 1292362544 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, as opposed to? < 1292362546 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the radio ones are fine with lag < 1292362549 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just terrible at everything else < 1292362553 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: um, as opposed to 32-bit linux < 1292362554 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really being very 64-bit? < 1292362556 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I'm talking of video sound being out of sync with the bluetooth ones I tried < 1292362565 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Being 53 bit but not telling anyone? < 1292362565 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: uname -r < 1292362567 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it end with x86_64? < 1292362569 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1292362571 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*amd64 < 1292362575 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, compared to plain cable ones < 1292362584 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2.6.32-5-amd64 < 1292362586 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it is 64-bit. < 1292362586 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, which work fine, don't need battery, and give better sound < 1292362590 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: huh. < 1292362592 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yeah yeah < 1292362609 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, beat my DT150 with wireless. Good luck < 1292362619 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FWIW, the FSF have some mysterious marker on java -version, so I am SUSPICIOUS < 1292362620 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, sb live + DT150 that is < 1292362629 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: i don't use wireless. < 1292362637 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :java version "1.6.0_18" < 1292362638 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OpenJDK Runtime Environment (IcedTea6 1.8.2) (6b18-1.8.2-4) < 1292362638 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OpenJDK 64-Bit Server VM (build 16.0-b13, mixed mode) < 1292362640 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how did that happen. < 1292362655 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: WELP I TOTALLY APPROVE OF ICEDTEA YOU SHOULD INSTALL IT < 1292362679 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awesome, java doesn't do font fallback < 1292362680 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a boss < 1292362712 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe it does < 1292362721 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1292362736 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: monads! < 1292362736 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1292362754 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Users can add a physical font as a fallback font to logical fonts used in Java 2D rendering by installing it in the lib/fonts/fallback directory within the JRE." < 1292362756 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: gonads < 1292362759 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D: < 1292362889 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grr, fallback thing doesn't work < 1292362909 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1292362912 0 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1292363338 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION reinstalls all Javay things. < 1292363397 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...And it still won't work. < 1292363443 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate it when things don't go through fontconfig. < 1292363476 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a central point for this configuration! I don't *want* your dumb-ass ways of handling it! < 1292363488 0 :Mathnerd314!~mathnerd3@dsl.6.28.53.206.cos.dyn.pcisys.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1292363497 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: if you can replace fontconfig with something less XML-loving and make it universal, I will love you forever) < 1292363617 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, comment in the context of @. < 1292363638 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: @ has no configuration. < 1292363641 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FWIW, I will Leave And Never Come Back if you don't declare that XML is banned from @. < 1292363644 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It renders fonts in the perfect way, as determined by me, God. < 1292363656 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Well, it'll have an XML parser... for feed reading, say :P < 1292363687 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, can't you configure it by messing around with the rendering code? < 1292363704 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: NO. It is protected. < 1292363710 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: By the same notion, everything is configurable because we have text editors. < 1292363720 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :INDEED < 1292363747 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yes, but in @ everything is adjustable at runtime. < 1292363750 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somehow. < 1292363834 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MAGIC < 1292363889 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, wait, what happens when you meddle with code that's being executed? < 1292363908 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Your bunny turns into a fluff. < 1292363914 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is as cute as it sounds, too. < 1292363935 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: More realistically: It works. < 1292363940 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, indeed, but what happens to the computer/ < 1292363951 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How? < 1292363979 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmmm, milkshake... < 1292364026 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Well, if you edit an executing function, nothing will happen, but the next time it's called... < 1292364039 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hmm. < 1292364040 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, Deewiant: down? < 1292364052 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite. < 1292364059 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: If you want to change a tight-looping function while it executes, use the debugger. < 1292364072 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ah. < 1292364085 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. hit pause/break or some similar key, step a few times if you want to, and tell it to change the code, then exit the debugger and continue. < 1292364089 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you still need to restart your web browser if significant changes are made to the code? < 1292364102 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really; I would imagine a web browser is composed of a good many functions. < 1292364123 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the main loop was compiled to be non-recursive (looping instead) and you modified that, then maybe. But I'd like to see if I can't make it update the code in that case too. < 1292364131 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but presumably some of them are going to run for a very long time. < 1292364146 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, there's no actual main loop; FRP. < 1292364148 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything that waits for user input, for instance. < 1292364152 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everything is just event --> reaction in the simplest case. < 1292364155 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Asynchronous. < 1292364166 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed, your browser won't even hard-loop like that, since it's based on an event-based GUI toolkit. < 1292364176 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just that in @, /everything/ is asynchronous and you use FRP to do all effects. < 1292364278 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I DO NOT KNOW THESE WORDS < 1292364291 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: What, "asynchronous"? < 1292364303 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FRP! < 1292364308 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hard-loop! < 1292364315 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Event-based! < 1292364318 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Effects! < 1292364321 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Hard-loop = loop :P < 1292364329 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your browser, when it pops up a dialogue box, doesn't freeze. < 1292364336 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it's not in a loop; it's doing everything normally. < 1292364346 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just has an event set up for "dialogue-box-clicked-OK". < 1292364445 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Re earlier topic, Bluetooth wireless headphones + Linux was indeed a really very laggy combination; but the same headphones were markedly better (lag-wise) in some other systems. Maybe the others do some sort of lag-compensating guesswork, who knows. < 1292364710 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does anyone have a tool to merge two fonts? < 1292364724 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. A+B => C where if char c not in A, char c in C, taken from B < 1292364729 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but otherwise char c in C, taken from A < 1292364836 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FontForge might be capable of that, but the user interface (if you can call it that) is so confusing, no-one can tell. < 1292364857 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001f5b00390f-CM001e6b2335dc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292365198 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: are you trying to create an all-encompassing unicode font? < 1292365221 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Quit < 1292365283 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: Just trying to merge Droid Sans Mono with fallback DejaVu Sans Mono, for J, which doesn't do fallbacks. < 1292365289 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Wanna TRY IT OUT FOR ME? :P < 1292365358 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that made a difference < 1292365358 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you extend a class to allow fallbacks? < 1292365460 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION 's eyes hurt < 1292365464 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1292365479 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: it's not OSS, so no. < 1292365497 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :has anyone else noticed that linux audio has really gotten lame in the past year or so, skipping and etc? I wonder if something happened to the driver for my card < 1292365531 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it goes back more than a year now, I lose track of time < 1292365555 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seemed to start around the same time as that pulseaudio stuff, but that could just be a coincidence < 1292365567 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't < 1292365570 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pulseaudio is the worst. < 1292365606 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but pulseaudio isn't in the kernel, right? < 1292365662 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was assuming if I selected ALSA, then I avoided pulseaudio messing me up < 1292365700 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: not unless you uninstall pulseaudio < 1292365710 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: it reroutes ALSA's library to go to pulseaudio, which then goes to ALSA < 1292365721 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I see < 1292365722 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: note: if you're on ubuntu, uninstalling pulseaudio = no volume control < 1292365752 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm also not sure if KDE 3.5's audio stuff is screwing me too < 1292365786 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since they had added yet another layer of crap lol < 1292365805 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: not even alsamixer? < 1292365823 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: Well, sure, that will work. < 1292365831 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh ok < 1292365831 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: You're using KDE 3.5 still? < 1292365838 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1292365851 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: Don't; use Trinity. < 1292365859 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: (Maintained fork of KDE3.5, being ported to Qt 4.) < 1292365864 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/ < 1292365868 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUCKING AWESOME!!!! < 1292365917 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh maybe it just changed names, lets see < 1292365942 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: hm? < 1292365945 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what changed names < 1292365952 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, this seems different < 1292365975 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: what did you think changed names? < 1292365977 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was using this before deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/kde3-maintainers/ppa/ubuntu lucid main < 1292366003 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, there it is < 1292366016 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so I'm using the same one < 1292366041 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're still on lucid? :-P < 1292366045 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1292366128 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to upgrade right away, but I got tired of stuff breaking so now I upgrade a release behind < 1292366151 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :upgrade to something that's already old: FUN < 1292366203 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: do you use kde 3.5? < 1292366245 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err Trinity < 1292366292 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: nope, I use gnome :P < 1292366309 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: more out of convenience than anything else < 1292366330 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I put gnome onmy new work lptop because I do realize kde 3.5 is crufty < 1292366342 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it seems alright < 1292366363 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe they removed all the features they could for a while and it stabilized < 1292366453 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the earlier KDE always reminded me of some kind of Windows 3.1/95 mix.. however the later KDE was better looking at they never removed features.. instead they just scrapped the entire thing and put ot KDE 4 lol < 1292366492 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only went to KDE3 because I was afraid of what Gnome would remove next.. there was one release where you couldn't even edit the menus < 1292366648 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be fair, though, the menu stuff was more of an outside standards effort that they adopted.. but they definitely could have waited a bit on that one < 1292366735 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who cares about linux anyway < 1292366736 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or X11 < 1292366739 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or... uh < 1292366740 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :keyboards < 1292366747 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nobody actually likes X11 any more. < 1292366804 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I bet there is some freak that does < 1292366822 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol if I had to choose between keyboard and mouse, the rodent would lose out < 1292366932 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't use xman exclusively due to it's amazing ui? oh wait, neither do I < 1292366983 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*its .. when did I start screwing that one up? < 1292367682 0 :tswett!~Warrigal@arch06.cis.gvsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1292367719 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA, VOI CH'INTRATE | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1292367738 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The sentence written on the door to Hell. < 1292367748 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, there are lots of sentences. Like, nine or something. That's the last one. < 1292368710 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cool, moving average is easy in J. < 1292368728 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"4 avg\ v" -- window is 4 < 1292368866 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :filter(ones(1,4), 1, v) in MATLABy things; not "quite" as nice. < 1292368941 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION decides that a Haskell moving average would fit within eighty characters. < 1292369055 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: whats your opinion on scheme again < 1292369056 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Go on, then :P < 1292369063 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: it's a racket < 1292369094 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: racket? < 1292369095 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, seriously, someone merge two TTFs for me. < 1292369097 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Infinite praise. < 1292369100 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: A swindle, no less. < 1292369108 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, fine. :P < 1292369113 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: wat :| < 1292369130 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's consider a list, like [1,7,2,5,3,8,9,4,2,7,3]. Then you just... < 1292369136 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: tswett: Also, it only counts if you use a predefined "avg" function. < 1292369141 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That you can substitute for any function. < 1292369143 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To make moving. < 1292369180 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, down? < 1292369182 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :map (avg . take 4) . tails $ [1,7,2,5,3,8,9,4,2,7,3] < 1292369211 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a good size for an interpreter of a "minimal" language? < 1292369216 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: um, in what? bytes? < 1292369218 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what language? < 1292369226 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Okay: mean(buffer(v, 4, 3)). (Except you can't quite substitute "any" function there; but most do it right by default.) < 1292369247 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Funnily enough, that will take the average of [1,7,2,5], then of [7,2,5,3], . . ., then of [4,2,7,3], then of [2,7,3], then of [7,3], then of [3], then of [], at which point the program will crash. < 1292369247 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: a Lisp, implemented in anything, counting tokens < 1292369252 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Cheater :P < 1292369258 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: counting tokens? pg got to you eh? < 1292369281 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: Anyway it's a meaningless question without specifying the implementation language. < 1292369282 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yeah; you can count LOC if you'd rather < 1292369283 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Now fix it :P < 1292369302 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you can use any language you want. < 1292369322 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I just want an order-of-magnitude estimate < 1292369328 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: then the question is meaningless :) < 1292369347 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :buffer(v, 4, 3) gives [[0; 0; 0; v(1)] [0; 0; v(1); v(2)] [0; v(1); v(2); v(3)] [v(1); v(2); v(3); v(4)] ... ], and most functions that make sense for a vector do their operation separately for each column. < 1292369387 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ok, we'll start with c. what size is a C interpreter for Lisp < 1292369403 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1292369406 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: BTW: < 1292369408 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 4 (+/%#)\ 1 7 2 5 3 8 9 4 2 7 3 < 1292369408 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3.75 4.25 4.5 6.25 6 5.75 5.5 4 < 1292369410 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Good luck beating that. < 1292369416 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: Uh, 100-200 lines? C is pretty verbose. < 1292369434 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: That includes the avg function. < 1292369510 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: so 700 lines of Haskell is way too long? < 1292369514 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :octave:6> sum(buffer([1 7 2 5 3 8 9 4 2 7 3], 4, 3, 'nodelay'))/4 < 1292369514 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ans = < 1292369514 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 3.7500 4.2500 4.5000 6.2500 6.0000 5.7500 5.5000 4.0000 3.0000 < 1292369524 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's a bit longer. And repeats the window width thrice. < 1292369528 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: definitely. if the language is minimal in even the slightest, definitely. < 1292369530 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if it isn't < 1292369536 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :700 lines of haskell could control nukes :) < 1292369541 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Psht. < 1292369547 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nuke controllers aren't that complicated. < 1292369550 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Shaddap. < 1292369556 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: OK, now define a function that takes a window size and a list and moving-averages them. < 1292369574 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: mavg=:(+/%#)\ < 1292369596 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: You too. :p < 1292369618 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"f = @(w, v) mean(buffer(v, w, w-1, 'nodelay'))" if you don't mind using mean. < 1292369625 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/f/mavg/ if you like. < 1292369653 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The 'nodelay' is a bit debatable; it zero-pads in front if you don't include that, but according to someone's definition that might be the right thing. < 1292369706 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: OK, now write a function that produces a screwy TABLE OF AVERAGES OR SOMETHING, like so: http://sprunge.us/MThf < 1292369713 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The last column is the moving averages, the first is the list itself; not sure what the list inbetween is. < 1292369727 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :map negate < 1292369732 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A nuke controller in Haskell. < 1292369737 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Oh, it's each window size from 1 (just return the list directly) to the size you specify. < 1292369743 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Requires a relatively "smart" API. < 1292369745 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: With the moving averages for each window being a column. < 1292369779 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stop being like that, it's going to be pretty ugly. < 1292369783 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The 3D version does nothing interesting, unfortunately. :P < 1292369789 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: That's okay, I like ugly! < 1292369797 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: At least it'll teach people not to call J ugly. :P < 1292369853 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"mmavg is (add over divide length) infix infix", what's so hard about that! < 1292369862 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(When each element is pronounced :P) < 1292369922 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: SO HOW'S IT GOING < 1292370103 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://p.zem.fi/gp4u I HOPE YOU'RE HAPPY NOW. < 1292370111 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not identical due to lack of nodelay. < 1292370124 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Does yours handle >1D arrays? < 1292370144 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably not. It almost didn't handle window width of 1 either. < 1292370221 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think buffer deals with matrices sensibly, you'd have to do something else, probably another arrayfun over a list to do the buffering. < 1292370225 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not going to try that. < 1292370241 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MATLAB's pretty horrible when you just want to map. < 1292370257 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least Mathematica has that funky /@ operator or whatever they called it. < 1292370276 0 :Wamanuz!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1292370277 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Elsewhere, now. < 1292370332 0 :pingveno!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1292370413 0 :pingveno!~pingveno@c-98-246-133-8.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1292370457 0 :Wamanuz!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292370569 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1292370924 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1292370980 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1292371163 0 :oklofok!~oklopol@xdsl-83-150-123-242.nebulazone.fi JOIN :#esoteric