< 1293148837 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~gmh/cat5.txt < 1293148857 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :initial F-algebra < 1293148877 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no clue about GADT though < 1293148922 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think F-algebra will work for all simple data types < 1293148955 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: lol you might want to try and make your library multiple files < 1293148966 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's gonna be like 10,000 lines when you're done < 1293148986 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how X) < 1293149003 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: I think "Require Import Foo." will work if Foo.v is in . < 1293149018 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be good to compile each bit seperately < 1293149046 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: if you ever manage to construct lists and map inside this ... I dare you to extract "map" < 1293149060 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'll be the ugliest fucntion ever < 1293149060 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1293149061 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*function < 1293149064 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(when extracted) < 1293149074 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might be able to contribute to Evolution of a haskell programmer... < 1293149097 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: :D < 1293149098 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brilliant < 1293149192 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: I wish Coq did some ugly special-casing for nats ... they're so slow and limited < 1293149199 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know there's the binary nats somewhere, but ... < 1293149221 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah numbers must be implemented in binary, peano is only useful for theory < 1293149245 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: still, even the binary nats aren't so hot < 1293149254 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: I'd like it if it just special-cased nat and represented it internally as a machine word / bignum < 1293149263 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still allowed you to destruct on S to decrement one, etc < 1293149265 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*etc. < 1293149283 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a funny idea < 1293149284 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fact and the like would be slow, but they wouldn't use up 34238490424 jiggabytes of memory < 1293149289 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: funny how? < 1293149317 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean where would the implemeentaiton get the idea to use binary? < 1293149329 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and more generally what else could it optimize < 1293149334 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: oh, I meant just hardcoding it ;-) < 1293149337 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's ugly as hell, certainly < 1293149339 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but nats are very common < 1293149355 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes numbers seem to be special in some sense < 1293149366 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never understood that < 1293149383 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean? you mean that numbers tend to be more useful/common than non-number structures? < 1293149401 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's because we looked at the most useful algebraic structures and called them numbers, and decided the less useful ones didn't count as numbers < 1293149457 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I think I will build it on top of cunionfs... is performance ok? i've always felt like fuse is slow but that may just be bias < 1293149482 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1293149493 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :natural numbers are universal in the category of discrete dynamical systems < 1293149533 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: i think it may be due to our bias -- we think numbers are interesting, so we tend to look more into something once we see numbers appear < 1293149536 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and disregard things that aren't so numbery < 1293149540 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, in a very general sense < 1293149545 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus why numbers seem pretty darn common < 1293149576 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I cannot come up with any counter-argument to that but I don't think it's true < 1293149593 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: when in doubt, i like to blame humans :) < 1293149601 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah some words got stuck on my head < 1293149602 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: i mean, let's put it this way < 1293149614 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: there's as much mathematics not involving numbers as there is mathematics involving numbers. < 1293149618 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some reason I keep thinking of the phrase "high performance JIT cheese" < 1293149627 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: so the /only/ factor in consideration here is, why do the mathematics /we've explored/ involve numbers a lot? < 1293149631 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i suspect the answer is: because we like numbers < 1293149663 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I haven't tested performance much 8-D < 1293149672 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: That is not reassuring :-\ < 1293149682 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: https://codu.org/projects/trac/sps/changeset/6%3A8584c8e2c0ed/cunionfs Why did you do this, I don't like it :p < 1293149695 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p.s. < 1293149698 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : char *dotfile; < 1293149698 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : sprintf(dotfile, "%s%s", curd, CUNIONFS_DOTFILE); < 1293149700 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol unallocated? < 1293149705 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait you allocate it later < 1293149859 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I do that so that you can't cause packages to do things they ought to be finding files at weird paths which just-so-happen to have the right names. < 1293149876 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Your sentence does not parse. < 1293149881 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"cause packages to do things they ought to be finding files at weird paths" < 1293149918 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I do that so that you can't cause packages to do things they oughtn't to by finding files at weird paths which just-so-happen to have the right names. < 1293149975 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I don't get it :P < 1293149977 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Example? < 1293150030 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have / mounted as cunionfs, and a version of sudo that isn't smart about checking the permissions of the sudoers file (it assumes only root can write to /etc). You make your own sudoers file in /home/mrhappy/evil/etc/sudoers, then mount that over / with cunionfs. < 1293150078 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Heh. Actually come to think of it I'll probably end up with / being an aufs of {regular filesystem, cunionfs for /bin /lib /share etc.} < 1293150088 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g., process-specific /var and /home sounds "no". < 1293150104 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Union of a union... you know what, this is an EXCELLENT argument for /usr. < 1293150149 0 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db42ffd.pool.mediaWays.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1293150157 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's just a specific case, it's not really solved by contracting your unions a bit :P < 1293150180 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And no, I assumed you'd have something else mounted over /var, /home and /root if you don't have /home/root, those are all silly to union. < 1293150185 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, as expected, getting lava from spawn no longer works < 1293150198 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: could a brain exist which was obsessed with something other than numbers? < 1293150222 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: Sure, why not. < 1293150233 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it would self destruct < 1293150237 0 :hagb4rd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :buenas < 1293150240 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: I don't see why. < 1293150251 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Maybe I'll have no /bin, /lib, /share, and put it all in a cunionfs /usr :P < 1293150263 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: / = {/usr, /var, /home, /tmp, /boot} or something. < 1293150270 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: / = {/usr, /var, /home, /tmp, /boot, /etc} or something. < 1293150283 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was the original intention behind SPS :P < 1293150298 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I had a /bin and /lib for really-core stuff (libc, coreutils) < 1293150315 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(So that if for some reason your package setup was punked, you weren't completely screwed) < 1293150391 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Well, I had a /bin and /lib for really-core stuff (libc, coreutils) < 1293150395 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: cal(1) is really-core? :P < 1293150417 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dude, my system won't even BOOT without cal. < 1293150452 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: The nice thing is that with Kitten, you're always completely screwed. < 1293150455 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I don't have to worry about that < 1293150457 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*that! < 1293150475 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, did you have stuff like fsck and mount in /bin too? < 1293150488 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: On a more srs note, I can't really have a cunionfs /, because I have no initramfs in Kitten :P < 1293150492 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So / kinda has to be a real drive. < 1293150506 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DESCRIPTION < 1293150506 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : switch_root moves already mounted /proc, /dev and /sys to newroot and makes newroot the new root filesystem and starts init < 1293150506 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : process. < 1293150506 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : WARNING: switch_root removes recursively all files and directories on the current root filesystem. < 1293150507 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yeah < 1293150508 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder why it has to do that. < 1293150517 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BURN YOUR BRIDGES! < 1293150557 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, to shrink the tmpfs size to 0 iirc < 1293150602 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → < 1293150691 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Do I get extra points if my package manager is Haskell? < 1293150699 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No :P < 1293150735 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: WHY NOPT < 1293150736 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*NOT < 1293150750 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BECAUSE HASKELL KILLED MY FAMILY < 1293150759 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Mine too! < 1293150780 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OMG JOIN US IN ##haskellkilledmyfamilyanonymous < 1293150787 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DONE < 1293150792 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU'RE NOT THERE < 1293150802 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ALSO YOU'RE NOT ANONYMOUS < 1293150823 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Actually, shipping Haskell with a statically linked system sounds slightly stupid, as the executable will probably be around 100 MiB :P < 1293151015 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't be surprised if GHC can't even make static executables (without some hacking) < 1293151032 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: It can, I just tried. < 1293151041 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, THERE GOES THAT THEORY. < 1293151045 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott@dinky:~$ ghc hello.hs -static -optl="-static" -optl="-pthread" ; ls -lh a.out < 1293151045 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compilation IS NOT required < 1293151046 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-rwxr-xr-x 1 elliott elliott 1.7M Dec 24 00:36 a.out < 1293151057 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Post-stripping: < 1293151059 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-rwxr-xr-x 1 elliott elliott 1.2M Dec 24 00:37 a.out < 1293151060 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOT BAD ACTUALY < 1293151062 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ACTUALLY < 1293151108 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's actually pretty damn good ... < 1293151232 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Dammit man -- the package manager has to be functionally pure now. < 1293151239 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: You've turned my OS into a bad recreation of NixOS. < 1293151250 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: _|_, and that's a middle finger, not the bottom value. < 1293151329 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Um. Question. < 1293151335 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Is "nm -a" supposed to work on statically linked executables? < 1293151337 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Unstripped ones.) < 1293151355 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ file hello < 1293151355 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (GNU/Linux), statically linked, for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, not stripped < 1293151359 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, it did actually work then :P < 1293152043 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Wait, can you add to the unioned directories without restarting a process? < 1293152398 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: :p < 1293152407 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: swatted to death < 1293152953 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :65 pages so far! < 1293152969 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: y/n? < 1293153005 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guess how many pages there will be when it is done. (Remember it also will have the function to read commands from DVI, as well.) When it is done, we can see how close you are to correct answer. < 1293153029 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it? < 1293153069 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: Are you asking me? < 1293153127 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: If you are: It is TeXnicard. < 1293153143 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: At present, no. Adding that wouldn't be particularly major, and it's something that's in the Eternal Todo o' Abandoned Projects :P < 1293153152 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Remember the page count of 65 pages also includes the index, summary of chunks, and table of contents.) < 1293153175 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: that's kinda dealbreaking ... you have to restart your whole X just to see the new package you installed or whatever < 1293153180 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even init, if you want it at every levle < 1293153181 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*levl < 1293153184 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*leve-fucking-l < 1293153335 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: or am i mistaken :P < 1293153342 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How I think package manager should work, is, if you want to install a package, you add it to the dependency list of the "locally installed packages" package. < 1293153352 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Adding that wouldn't be particularly major, and it's something that's in the Eternal Todo o' Abandoned Projects. Just need a way to tell the process "I want you to reevaluate my package list like so", probably by a file-write. < 1293153371 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Right, I'm just checking that, in fact, this has the major of issue requiring an effective-reboot to isntall a package :P < 1293153402 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like my ideas about package managers? Do you think they are wrong for some reason(s)? < 1293153414 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: "based on pipes" isn't very descriptive < 1293153441 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: If you want it to be visible to everyone, it's just a matter of putting it in the global configuration file. If you want it to be visible to a user, it's a matter of putting it in their user configuration file. If you want it to be visible to some process or process group, that's more tricky. < 1293153464 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: OK, so it rereads the config file all the time? < 1293153471 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was unaware that it had configuration files. < 1293153479 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I haven't re-added the configuration files :P < 1293153496 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: So what you're TRYING to say is: < 1293153497 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: The way it worked in D was with that daemon (the name of which I can't remember) which informs a process when a file has changed. < 1293153503 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : If you want it to be visible to anyone, reboot. < 1293153508 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : If you want it to be visible to a user, reboot. < 1293153513 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : If you want it to be visible to some process or process group, reboot. < 1293153518 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is the actual state. Yes? :P < 1293153522 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott: The way it worked in D was with that daemon (the name of which I can't remember) which informs a process when a file has changed. < 1293153525 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Look, you just dug up a project that I abandoned midway and you're expecting it to have features that are still on the TODO list. Fuck you. < 1293153529 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: fam, but nobody uses it any more < 1293153539 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamin is used, which is a daemonless impl of the api < 1293153547 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I'm not expecting, I'm just /checking/ < 1293153557 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since your previous statement implied that there were, in fact, configuration files. < 1293153566 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I mean, for example: wg -MR0 ftp://example.org/packages/* | pm -tQ | ... < 1293153573 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: wg? < 1293153578 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: You're also expecting me to remember the exact state I abandoned it in. < 1293153591 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Well, you did just say that in retrospect it was pretty awesome earlier :P < 1293153605 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: This is just an example of new programs I might make if I make a distro. wg is like wget except that multiple retrieval is sent to stdout as a tape archive. < 1293153607 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: And it is :P < 1293153612 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And pm is package manager. < 1293153634 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I'ma go for aufs, with the magical property of allowing me to remount without reooting :P < 1293153635 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*rebooting < 1293153650 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Unless "mount -o remount" would work with cunionfs? Wait, FUSE, so no.) < 1293153662 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: But what about the other idea, that if you want to install a package, you add it to the dependency list of the "locally installed packages" package? < 1293153670 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Sure. < 1293153703 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do some package managers do that? < 1293153753 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably. < 1293153802 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do any package managers work by pipes? Some new programs are not pipe but some old UNIX programs are designed with pipe operation, and I think it is good idea and new programs in UNIX should also work like that too. < 1293153911 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, probably some programs on UNIX can already work with pipes, such as: curl http://example.org/mail.tar.gz | zcat | tar -x < 1293153977 0 :Wamanuz2!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293154056 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that is how I want to make a Linux distribution, nearly all program are operated by doing pipes. Including the window manager. < 1293154293 0 :BlSlereah!~butt@ANantes-259-1-17-245.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1293154348 0 :hagb4rd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1293154351 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1293154351 0 :Wamanuz!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1293154360 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1293154370 0 :augur!~augur@c-71-196-120-234.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1293154371 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*.net *.split < 1293154385 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: not minecrafting? < 1293155061 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: WHAT THE FUCK < 1293155108 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: So, I come out of the track from nailor's cabin. Floor is obsidian. I break my cart while in it as usual. Normally I go into the lava below and catch fire for like, 0.25s before going back to normal. Except this time, I *stayed in the fire, died, and lost all my possessions*. < 1293155114 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I WANT MY FUCKING STUFF BACK, NOTCH ;__; < 1293155309 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1293155366 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Iiiiit's Notch Quality! < 1293155429 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-209-62.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1293155537 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ch// < 1293155675 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: i need help < 1293155933 0 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db42ffd.pool.mediaWays.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1293156426 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: heh me too < 1293156428 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats up? < 1293156437 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: If God Had Intended Us To Play In Ten Tones Per Octave, Then He Would Have Given Us Ten Fingers. < 1293156457 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am sick of trying to defin a symbolic category, it's really hard < 1293156465 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : p : Z < 1293156465 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : q : positive < 1293156465 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : H : (p ^ 3 <= 3 * ' q ^ 3)%Z < 1293156465 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ============================ < 1293156465 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : exists s : Q, < 1293156466 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : p # q < s /\ match s with < 1293156467 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | p0 # q0 => (p0 ^ 3 <= 3 * ' q0 ^ 3)%Z < 1293156469 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : end < 1293156471 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: must prove. < 1293156557 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: i.e. "given an underestimate of 3root(3), generate a closer underestimate" < 1293156864 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: any ideas? :/ < 1293156872 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying something righ tnow < 1293156966 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p/q |--> (2*p^3 + 3*q^3)/(3*q*p^2) tends toward the cube root of 3 but it never satisfies p^3 <= 3q^3 < 1293156998 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you look at the continued fraction you get one on either side of cuberoot(3), so you could just take all the odd ones... but that means implementing all the continued fraction stuff < 1293157101 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: yeah and that kinda defeats the point < 1293157127 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can get a recurrence from the continued fraction for quadratics, but I think there is a theorem that says a state machine can't generate the continued fraction of any higher irrationality < 1293157129 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: I think this "computable Dedekind cut" approach would be nice if not for the proofs :/ < 1293157158 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: really? that theorem < 1293157164 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: would mean you can't use continued fractions for computable reals... < 1293157200 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I stated it wrong < 1293157233 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1293157284 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://arxiv.org/pdf/1012.1709 < 1293157365 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The continued fraction expansion of an algebraic number of degree at least < 1293157365 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :three cannot be generated by a finite automaton. < 1293157435 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: that's not good is it? < 1293157445 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: I mean could Coq do it? I don't actually know what computational class Coq is < 1293157611 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: my guess is that constructive dedekind cuts are what intuitionists that have never seen a computer use < 1293157644 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: :D < 1293157717 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: have you ever used c-corn's constructive reals? < 1293157721 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1293157755 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm what does :> mean again? in a coq type < 1293157756 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to : < 1293157761 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a record field declaration < 1293157788 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's something to do with pretening the record is another type < 1293157898 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird < 1293157906 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: hmm you mean like < 1293157911 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Record blah := mkBlah { foo :> nat; bar : ... } < 1293157914 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could use a blah as a nat? < 1293157967 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1293157976 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I don't really know I don't use that, but it's something like that < 1293157980 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: I could do algebraic structures like that! < 1293157982 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TIME TO TRY IT OUT < 1293158003 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :leave king dedede... sorry, dede.v for now < 1293158006 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still haven't been able to define this damned symbolc category < 1293158012 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: what category is it exactly? < 1293158031 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually it's just graphs, that's a simpler way to think of it. < 1293158058 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you disable the coq stdlib in the file again? :/ < 1293158061 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait i have it here somewhere < 1293158067 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually graph isn't right < 1293158074 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(* < 1293158074 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*** Local Variables: *** < 1293158074 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*** coq-prog-args: ("-emacs-U" "-nois") *** < 1293158074 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*** End: *** < 1293158074 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*) < 1293158075 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right? < 1293158103 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The idea is: Inductive Symbolic_Maps : nat -> nat -> Type := f 3 4 | h 2 1 | k 2 1 | m 3 4. < 1293158109 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1293158116 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was a bad example < 1293158130 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets take Inductive Symbolic_Maps : nat -> nat -> Type := f 3 4 | h 4 1 | k 1 6 | m 3 4. < 1293158144 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is 3 the type w/ three elements? < 1293158145 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here < 1293158154 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no just the number 3, or it could be any symbolc < 1293158167 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so f : Symbolic_Maps 3 4 < 1293158177 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1293158210 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we need something like lists, Inductive Symbolic_Mappings : nat -> nat -> Type := nil : forall x, Symbolic_Mappings x x ; cons : forall a b c, Symbolic_Map a b -> Symbolic_Mappings b c -> Symbolic_Mappings a c. < 1293158254 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the identity is nil and composition is append.. then things like (f o g) o (k o h) = (f o (g o k)) o h would be provable by reflexivity < 1293158269 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a functor from Symbolic -> C would prove the same identity in any other category < 1293158306 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right now, to prove (f o g) o (k o h) = (f o (g o k)) o h .. it takes 300 lines of proof script < 1293158650 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: I wish Coq had like, a minimal stdlib with it < 1293158654 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :giving eq, exists, that kind of stuff < 1293158658 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than having to code it myself < 1293158681 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can use mine < 1293158702 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: got a link again? < 1293158721 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/BQaW0Cdb this is before I start defining category < 1293158743 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks, I'll nab useful bits from there as I go :) < 1293158743 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Decidable is spelled wrong :/ < 1293158750 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: Coq has And/Or built in doesn't it? < 1293158756 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does "# Arguments." do :P < 1293158758 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1293158784 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mispaste, should have been Set Implicit Arguments. < 1293158855 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: I think set implicit arguments actually gets in my way < 1293158866 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's nice to have to specify what gets implicit-ified < 1293158974 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inductive or (P Q : Prop) : Prop := < 1293158974 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| zig : P -> or P Q < 1293158974 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| zag : Q -> or P Q. < 1293158976 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like my names more < 1293159225 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heheh < 1293159269 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION assassinates Active Worlds's asinine update methods < 1293159510 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Error: Unknown interpretation for notation "_ /\ _". < 1293159512 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does that mean again? < 1293159519 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1293159531 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there we go < 1293159617 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( my symbolic category does not work < 1293159641 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1293159648 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: i've defined up to abelian groups, now to watch the whole thing fall apart as i try and do rngs < 1293159661 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rings because that has two operations? < 1293159669 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: because it's a combination of two structures, basically < 1293159675 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: and my structures have set fields < 1293159683 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: I might restructure them to be Prop-records parameterised on type < 1293159687 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but IIRC that didn't work last time I tried < 1293159700 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this really sucks, F(f o g) doesn't evaluate to Ff ' Fg, should have known that < 1293159705 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ff o Fg < 1293159730 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are equal, but F(f o g) evaluates to Ff o (Fg o Fidentity) -- because of the way the category is made < 1293159761 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if I make composition syntactic in the symbolic category then I don't get the proofs for free.. damned either way < 1293159805 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Record pseudo_ring := { < 1293159805 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : pr_ag :> abelian_group; < 1293159805 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : pr_sg :> semigroup; < 1293159805 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : pr_left_dist : < 1293159805 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : forall a b c : < 1293159808 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean do you write pr_ag or pr_sg < 1293159811 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both give you problem < 1293159812 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s < 1293159820 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I could refer to the record itself somehow there, that might work < 1293159835 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: who needs proofs for free :) < 1293159838 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me! < 1293159869 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://coq.pastebin.com/DzVkdQbV <- broken < 1293159885 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :starts at line 629 < 1293159899 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: i did your proof < 1293159902 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: just add one line < 1293159903 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admitted. < 1293159905 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I'll just use a syntactic compose, and write a decision theorem < 1293159952 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will not admit defeat < 1293160095 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Record magma S := { < 1293160095 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : mg_S :> Set := S; < 1293160095 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : mg_op : mg_S -> mg_S -> mg_S < 1293160095 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :}. < 1293160095 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Implicit Arguments mg_op [S m]. < 1293160096 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Theorem magma_is_set : forall S (m : magma S), mg_S m = S. < 1293160098 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : intros; apply refl. < 1293160100 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Qed. < 1293160102 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now THIS might work!! < 1293160147 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's that theorem about? < 1293160206 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: just checking coercion works :P < 1293160222 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1293160244 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the biggest problem for me is I don't want to use Set < 1293160261 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need something like NxN/~ for some equivalence < 1293160270 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought category theory would solve it :/ < 1293160278 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it does - I just don't see how yet < 1293160382 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: category theory solves EVERYTHING!!!!!!! < 1293160400 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it bloody well better after all this hard work :p < 1293160709 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: i got pseudorings! < 1293160734 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1293160792 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: got any nice theorems about pseudorings/rngs? :p < 1293160796 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wanna see if this actually works < 1293160808 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even know what it is LOL < 1293160815 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something weaker than ring < 1293160829 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudo-ring < 1293160843 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: abelian ring (R,+) and semigroup (R,*) where * and + distribute < 1293160942 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ring < 1293160942 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pseudoring with identity element 1 for • (monoid) < 1293160945 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1293160955 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i just need it to be that my pseudo-ring's semigroup must be a monoid too < 1293161012 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Record ring S := { < 1293161012 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : rg_S :> pseudo_ring S; < 1293161012 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : rg_sg_is_monoid : monoid (pr_sg rg_S) < 1293161012 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :}. < 1293161012 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what. < 1293161014 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was stupid easy. < 1293161035 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :time to try Z I guess < 1293161069 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try to prove 0*x = 0 in ring < 1293161091 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: heh damn you, i have to figure out what 0 is in this case... the problem is that everyone says * at the lower levels < 1293161094 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though it turns into + in higher structurse < 1293161096 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*structures < 1293161099 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and everyone says 1 even when it's 0 < 1293161103 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SO CONFUZZLING < 1293161210 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : S : Set < 1293161210 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : R : ring S < 1293161210 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : a : R < 1293161210 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ============================ < 1293161210 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : mn_1 * a = mn_1 < 1293161213 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think this is a problem with my scheme < 1293161220 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every structure on the same set looks the same to coq < 1293161304 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ============================ < 1293161304 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : monoid ?385 < 1293161305 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hnnnnnnng < 1293161317 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: are you sure coq doesn't have a tactic for "let me specify this ?385 now"? :( < 1293161323 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does < 1293161327 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instantiate (1 := ...) < 1293161343 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: no, but like < 1293161345 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instantiate 1. < 1293161348 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it becomes the new goal < 1293161386 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: and pushes the current goal to the end < 1293161450 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: surely it must exist, i mean it'd be so useful < 1293161471 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I don't think that exists < 1293161476 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that would bereally useful though < 1293161877 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm going to write eval in c using exec to call out to gcc, dlopen and dlsym... tomorrow. < 1293161877 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suck it, Lisp weenies. < 1293161878 0 :Sasha!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293161878 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...or just use libtcc, which looks like it can do it out of the box. < 1293161886 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1293161902 0 :Sasha!~WHAT@97-124-38-203.phnx.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1293161903 0 :Mathnerd314_!~mathnerd3@dsl.6.28.53.206.cos.dyn.pcisys.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1293161940 0 :Mathnerd314_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Mathnerd314 < 1293162491 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how I can avoid just reinventing Nix. < 1293162652 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Fair enough response to the half-block question. Real question: How long did it take you to become proficient enough a coder to make Minecraft? < 1293162653 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did my first programming when I was eight. I'm 30 now.]] < 1293162662 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fun fact: Notch's programming skills decrease every passing day. < 1293162665 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also: < 1293162667 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Any chance of getting a female player model? Also, how about some optional skinnable clothing that can be used with your model? < 1293162667 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly, yes, but how do I make a cube based female model without being extremely silly and/or slightly objectifying?]] < 1293162676 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Notch has no idea how to make a female model without giving it gigantic breasts. < 1293163461 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1293166256 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Xiph is working on a new audio codec... < 1293166284 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/celt/download1/celt-0.10.0-32.flac This is what it sounds like at *32 kbps*. < 1293166427 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1293166441 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hard to beleive < 1293166464 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1293166470 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: wanna write something on my blog < 1293166488 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you have a blog (then there would be no point!!!) < 1293166501 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION haþ no blog < 1293166571 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ok, well you seem like an intelligent, fun-loving guy < 1293166580 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :u should """""guest post""""" < 1293167069 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: r u interested? < 1293167171 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps. < 1293167331 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION once tried to sudo on his school's Linux system < 1293167353 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mistook that console window for the console window for my system < 1293167437 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: u should www.symbo1ics.com/blog < 1293167720 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: did it get noticed? < 1293167800 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314, no idea < 1293167806 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sent some mail to the sysadmin about it < 1293167933 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: any relation to xkcd? < 1293168003 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xkcd is the reason that I thought of it just now < 1293168056 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lc1hqgvA8F1qzymhso1_500.gif < 1293168195 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION pukes on Quadrescence  < 1293168207 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :STOP THAT SGEO < 1293168232 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence, you're the one who posted that disgusting link < 1293168309 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://media.damnfunnypictures.com/photos/j0xqdn9-animal-tortoise-turtle-ucumari.jpg < 1293168371 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer that to the comic < 1293168906 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes back to reading llvm < 1293169727 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1293169832 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-234-47.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1293171020 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.zreomusic.com/listen All that is synthed. It sounds *far* to good to be synthed... < 1293171039 0 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1293171040 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, aside from being unhumanly accurately played. < 1293171097 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I'm always surprised by what *isn't* synthed < 1293171243 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously, there ought to be no real barriers to me deciding to make some music *right now* < 1293171344 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except talent. < 1293171347 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ducks < 1293171381 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yeah, I'll agree that reading documentation is always a good idea < 1293171408 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: This is why only Gregor makes music here. < 1293171422 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He is not a man! He is walking, typing, hat-wearing talent! < 1293171472 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and simultaneously! < 1293171510 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even while chewing gum! < 1293171516 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's Isle of Tune, but it's too limited: http://isleoftune.com/ < 1293171583 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As such is his talent! < 1293171593 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He is so talented that he is talent *with talent*! < 1293171661 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but AFAICT, there's no single FLOSS "music making" program < 1293172289 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who needs a program? < 1293172295 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All you need is talent! < 1293172314 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With talent, you can just bit-bang out the FLAC you want! < 1293172332 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: I in no way advocate actually bit-banging a FLAC to generate music. God no.) < 1293172367 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bit-bang? < 1293172377 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O... literally writing the bits? < 1293172407 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, what would such a thing sound like? < 1293172435 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously, I should do it < 1293172503 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: tristan perich writes one-bit music: music played by an arduino without a dac (and therefore using nothing but square waves) < 1293172629 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: then what are you advocating? < 1293172727 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: this is FLOSS afaict: http://chuck.cs.princeton.edu/release/ < 1293172738 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you like live coding :P < 1293172747 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: I don't know, but it should be PAINFUL < 1293172803 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i also once composed a piece in audacity < 1293172806 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from scratch < 1293172809 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was painful < 1293172862 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: life is pain. so that's satisfied. < 1293172879 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :word to the wise: never try to do anything involving more than a handful of tracks in audacity. it will blow up and do really freaky things < 1293172911 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Doesn't it anyways? < 1293172943 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: it didn't blow up until 20 tracks on my old fast memoriful computer < 1293172954 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on this one it can't record a single track for more than five seconds... < 1293173250 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293173631 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293173656 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293173771 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ha ha! Now push the "EXPLODE" button and your television set will explode. < 1293174073 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, I used Audacity to record my karaoke! < 1293174079 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION pushes zzo38's EXPLODE button < 1293174098 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: since pikhq is not interested in writing on my blog, do you wanna < 1293174103 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Does it work? < 1293174112 0 :Zuu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293174115 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: What do you want written on it? It depends. < 1293174115 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, I have a scapegoat for my horrible singing! < 1293174123 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: http://symbo1ics.com/blog/ < 1293174130 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stuff about stuff < 1293174154 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :write whatever you want as long as it's expository in nature (and ideally about math or compsci?!?!?!) < 1293174221 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(enable js) < 1293174242 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know a blog written entirely in haskell that uses no js < 1293174269 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah damn cale < 1293174270 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it contains several tech topics < 1293174271 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: What do you want me to do, add comments? < 1293174276 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is now frightened. < 1293174279 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: no, i'd give you an account < 1293174288 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FFXII has an optional boss with 50 million HP. < 1293174288 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: and you could write a (some) posts about whatever if you wanted < 1293174295 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can apparently take 12 hours. < 1293174372 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: No, it is very slow. I prefer PhlogJournal (in which I can just create plain text files with the correct names and everything else goes by itself). < 1293174390 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://faidio.visuallycreated.com:8002/blog/view.cgi?id=5 here's how you make a blog in haskell. i don't know haskell so i don't know how creative this is. < 1293174438 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: what < 1293174469 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/yiazmat3.jpg Each one of those dots is a full health bar. < 1293174497 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: I mean this gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net:70/1phlog*a it is much faster and simpler. No account or anything needed, just a directory in your computer. < 1293174512 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12 hours seems reasonable < 1293174523 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you save your progress and come back to it? < 1293174543 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, did you write PhlogJournal yourself? < 1293174547 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION guesses yes < 1293174550 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Yes, I wrote it myself. < 1293174560 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is obviously a future psychic < 1293174562 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: the point is that anyone can have an account and anyone can log in and everything is secure < 1293174592 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: And here is the code for it: gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net:70/0phlog*f0 (you can use netcat to download it if you want to) < 1293174618 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: Then why don't you juse use ssh then? < 1293174618 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grrrrr < 1293174626 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why doesn't Chrome support gopher? < 1293174633 0 :Zuu!zuu@unaffiliated/zuu JOIN :#esoteric < 1293174633 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does Opera support gopher? < 1293174645 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I want several people to have access, and since I type math, I want javascript to be enabled < 1293174680 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Neither Chrome or Opera does. But you can use netcat: echo 'phlog*f0' | nc -q -1 zzo38computer.cjb.net 80 > PhlogJournal.php < 1293174703 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the worst way to view a blog :( < 1293174723 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence, that's downloading the source for the engine < 1293174728 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay < 1293174763 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's cool about phlog? < 1293174818 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Well, look at the codes if you want to. It is very simple but does calendars, comment system, and more. < 1293174838 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Without slowing down your computer with JavaScript and images and stuff like that. < 1293174896 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: WHAT ABOUT LATEX RENDERING WITH NATIVE FONTS < 1293174925 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the only thing I really use JS for < 1293174929 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm getting a 501 on your nc command up thhere? :/ < 1293174946 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: Then just use LaTeX to make a printout. < 1293174956 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Sorry, that is because I accidentally typed 8 instead of 7. < 1293174957 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: that's lame. images are okay. < 1293174966 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Change the 8 to 7 (they are close to each other on the keyboard) < 1293174969 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then it will work. < 1293174974 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: no it's quite not lame < 1293174989 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thx < 1293174991 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: images assume the user has some sized screen at some resolution < 1293175021 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer Plain TeX to typeset the mathematics and then can publish the DVI file if we need to make a report about mathematical things. < 1293175027 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Port 70/TCP? Gopher? < 1293175036 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: Yes. < 1293175050 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: the point of a blog is to blog, and one can use TeX to do stuff on it < 1293175093 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: Could you write a blog program in TeX? < 1293175110 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1293175115 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one *could* I guess < 1293175128 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: i think it's fair to use JS to detect screen size. it's less lame than printing text in all kinds of crazy positions to simulate tex, imo. < 1293175128 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you mean "a tex program on the blog"? < 1293175151 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: what < 1293175176 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there really should be a css way to do that though :/ < 1293175190 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :images are just a poor option when you can do native TeX typesetting and use Real Fonts < 1293175198 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mathml is bad, but jsmath is good < 1293175206 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: No, I mean a blog program in TeX. Like, you might use ssh to send files and stuff, perhaps message send protocol or something for comments, and then HTTP/FTP/Gopher to download the DVI file. < 1293175217 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jsmath is slow and hangs a lot. it annoys me. < 1293175228 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: it needs to render < 1293175233 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, lynx supports gopher... < 1293175235 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Yes it is slow on my computer too. < 1293175245 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree it's slow, but it's not TOO slow < 1293175258 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd rather have nice looking output :) < 1293175264 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: I think it is too slow. < 1293175270 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i agree with zzo38 < 1293175273 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the hanging thing < 1293175278 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for rendering TeX in real time? < 1293175283 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's quite fast really. < 1293175296 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about we just not render it in real time, eh? < 1293175304 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: AFAIK, no need to point MX record to host itself, A/AAAA records are enough for mail delivery... < 1293175318 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: because that defeats the whole purpose of it < 1293175344 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why browsers are getting better and better JS engines < 1293175345 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1293175367 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we just need to petition the w3c to add tex rendering stuff to the html standards. < 1293175368 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: Are you refering to my domain name? If I don't enter the MX record, I think cjb.net services will handle it. < 1293175379 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let the browser do it fast instead of in js slowly < 1293175387 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: i agree with that < 1293175387 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but having it pre-rendered < 1293175390 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"zzo38computer.cjb.net. 300 IN MX 0 zzo38computer.cjb.net.". < 1293175403 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: but right now it's the best we have. and mathml blows < 1293175412 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1293175432 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: i didn't know. i'll test it real quick to see what you mean < 1293175441 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: Yes, I did that so that CJB service will not process the mail. < 1293175465 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: mathml doesn't blow that bad < 1293175513 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it does < 1293175537 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a piece of shit, designed by a web committee, not mathematicians or typographers < 1293175718 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and... how does that cause it to be bad? < 1293175746 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: CJB inserts their own MX record if you don't put one? < 1293175751 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well if you've ever examined either the output or the markup, you'd understand Mathnerd314 < 1293175812 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so tex4ht renders the math stuff as a png apparently. add to that a script to switch out which image to use depending on resolution i think you'd have something looking reasonable and running fast until we get a proper standard < 1293175860 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I highly favor native fonts, because they scale with the text around it, have the correct baseline, and don't look like shit when printed < 1293175872 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially with monochrome laser printers < 1293175891 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: Yes I think they do. < 1293175899 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :print? who prints? < 1293175901 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :treekiller < 1293175904 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I print a ton < 1293175918 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's my current To Read stack http://i.imgur.com/U2uzT.jpg < 1293175934 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all of which I printed < 1293175997 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1293176002 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1293176009 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :googling your nick i find that you do a lot of math reading and tex stuff < 1293176015 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1293176018 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can see where that might be an issue for you < 1293176042 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Ah, that explains it. If querying MX records for foo. doesn't produce any results, MTAs assume implicit 'foo. 0 IN MX 0 foo.'. < 1293176059 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: tex4ht is a great application, I don't deny that < 1293176070 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just like the output I have I guess :S:S:S:S < 1293176071 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i also didn't realize quadrescence was a made up word...what is it supposed to mean? < 1293176080 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idk it's made up < 1293176095 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes but you get to make up a def too :P < 1293176109 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quad represents four facets of my mind~ < 1293176147 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have one more facet than you. i win. < 1293176152 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good night < 1293176156 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :time cube < 1293176173 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EARTH HAS 4 CORNER < 1293176173 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SIMULTANEOUS 4-DAY < 1293176173 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TIME CUBE < 1293176173 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IN ONLY 24 HOUR ROTATION. < 1293176173 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 CORNER DAYS, CUBES 4 QUAD EARTH- No 1 Day God. < 1293176175 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jsMath doesn't even support a lot of commands of TeX. And the ones it does support, is all incomplete. < 1293176182 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: what? < 1293176184 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no... < 1293176198 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: It supports the math typesetting, and that's rather complete < 1293176276 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and looks exquisite if you have STIX fonts installed (free) < 1293176276 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I typed \^^47amma and it says "Unknown control sequence '\^'" < 1293176289 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it can't make \def or \the\count255 or anything like that either < 1293176293 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can < 1293176301 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just in the config files < 1293176304 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on demand? no < 1293176318 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know why you'd type \^^47 anyway < 1293176322 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, \def works. < 1293176334 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But \the is broken. < 1293176344 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's for typesetting math < 1293176348 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is it < 1293176361 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want to typeset TeX documents, use TeX < 1293176379 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want to typeset math using TeX on webpages, use jsmath < 1293176391 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.12/20101026210630] < 1293176721 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293176937 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\mathchar doesn't work. < 1293177065 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: what is a practical use case of \mathchar < 1293177118 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\kern only partially works. < 1293177156 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: You can look at the TeXbook for some examples. < 1293177168 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know what it is. I am asking for a practical use case for a website. < 1293177183 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that LaTeX doesn't solve. < 1293177277 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: SORRY, I AM TAKING OFFENSE TO YOUR INANE PROBLEMS WITH JSMATH!!! < 1293177382 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think TeX works better. If you want to make a math report, you can use TeX. < 1293177419 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, the \hbox command in jsMath is completely broken. < 1293177421 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, if you want to make a math report for publication, yes < 1293177440 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want to write a blog, absolutely not < 1293177499 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually I think TeX can be good for math blog. You should just need ssh. < 1293177531 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gross < 1293177599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1293177600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1293177819 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The broken \hbox is probably the most serious mistake in jsMath, I think. < 1293178376 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: i'd agree < 1293178963 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But regardless of how well jsMath works or doesn't work, it is still slow!! < 1293179338 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :250 Your request for doing nothing has been completed successfully. < 1293179845 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leg before wicket. < 1293182005 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-13-169.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1293185394 0 :asiekierka!asiekierka@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1293185396 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1293185406 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me and my friend made this in my own game -> http://64pixels.org/christmas.png < 1293185647 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181130160.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293185990 0 :hagb4rd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1293186016 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293187023 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181130160.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293187401 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293188119 0 :Anon899!~Anon899@ppp-70-251-75-14.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1293188155 0 :Anon899!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1293188403 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181130160.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293188771 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293189783 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181130160.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293190305 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293190813 0 :asiek2erka!asiekierka@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1293190968 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1293191193 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181130160.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293191553 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293192545 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181130160.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293192881 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293193024 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1293193188 0 :Wamanuz2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1293193277 0 :Wamanuz2!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293193639 0 :impomatic!~chatzilla@87.114.29.124 JOIN :#esoteric < 1293193824 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181130160.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293194136 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293195128 0 :BlSlereah!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Slereah < 1293195135 0 :cheater99!~cheater@g231048068.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293196977 0 :Wamanuz2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1293197003 0 :Wamanuz2!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293198051 0 :yiyus_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1293198301 0 :Wamanuz3!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293198301 0 :Wamanuz2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293198737 0 :yiyus!1242712427@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1293200602 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293201650 0 :cheater99!~cheater@g231048068.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293203564 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293203760 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293204457 0 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1293204612 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://xkcd.com/838/ This... is actually close to having potential. < 1293204633 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Get rid of the girl in the middle panel and just make it him wondering and it would be decent. < 1293204738 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:51:24 http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/celt/download1/celt-0.10.0-32.flac This is what it sounds like at *32 kbps*. < 1293204739 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Whoa. < 1293204775 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: heh Tom's Diner cameo at the end < 1293204804 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:10:37 pikhq: u should www.symbo1ics.com/blog < 1293204808 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh jesus christ that is the worst blog ever < 1293204819 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasn't it on reddit recently < 1293204830 0 :cheater99!~cheater@g231048068.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293204870 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:14:03 seriously, there ought to be no real barriers to me deciding to make some music *right now* < 1293204870 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:15:44 except talent. < 1293204870 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:15:47 * oerjan ducks < 1293204870 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:16:21 well, yeah, I'll agree that reading documentation is always a good idea < 1293204874 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have no response < 1293204958 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:41:19 word to the wise: never try to do anything involving more than a handful of tracks in audacity. it will blow up and do really freaky things < 1293204958 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:41:51 quintopia: Doesn't it anyways? < 1293204964 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :audacity is possibly the worst software ... ever < 1293205010 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:03:41 (enable js) < 1293205017 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :desperately trying to figure out a justification for having a blog depend on js now. < 1293205357 0 :j-invariant!~aaaa@unaffiliated/j-invariant JOIN :#esoteric < 1293205454 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey elliott < 1293205457 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1293205474 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look at the proof on line 746 http://coq.pastebin.com/rkDjqYFH < 1293205490 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then see 877 where it gets mapped to a different category < 1293205592 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1293205618 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: nice < 1293205628 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really exciting < 1293205628 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293205640 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: this is getting close to the point where i understand nothing though :) < 1293205645 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this gives a general way to prove things automatically < 1293205661 0 :Mathnerd314!~mathnerd3@dsl.6.28.53.206.cos.dyn.pcisys.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1293205696 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :02:10:06 me and my friend made this in my own game -> http://64pixels.org/christmas.png < 1293205698 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiek2erka: what. < 1293205853 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if I should start keep developing this or try and simplify it and clean it up < 1293205877 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's too bad I can't bootstrap it.. because it would be a lot easier to define category theory if i already had it < 1293205892 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :logical consistency prohibits it < 1293205947 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: not if you did everything coinductively! maybe :P < 1293205963 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: I'd keep going, it's "clean enough" < 1293206625 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: I am not sure how to prove that 0+x = x in a ring at all, with my model < 1293206642 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0+x = x isn't an axiom? < 1293206676 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Error: Impossible to unify "mg_op b" with "mg_op b".]] wat < 1293206684 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: not that i can tell < 1293206693 0 :cheater99!~cheater@g231048068.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293206695 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1293206697 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure it is < 1293206697 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: yes, it is < 1293206700 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: I mean 0*x = 0 < 1293206702 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that is so stupid, Coq should check if the string representations are the same - and show implicit parameters if they are < 1293206710 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Error: Impossible to unify "mg_op b" with "mg_op b"." ;; lol ok so my system does work < 1293206713 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coq just prints it confusingly < 1293206717 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i already said that < 1293206719 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah OK < 1293206725 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i think i wrote a proof of 0*x = 0 on this channel once < 1293206854 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0*x = (0+0)*x = 0*x+0*x --> cancel --> 0*x = 0 < 1293206875 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote elliott: i think i wrote a proof of 0*x = 0 on this channel once < 1293206880 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your crowning achievement as a mathematician < 1293206887 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :254) elliott: i think i wrote a proof of 0*x = 0 on this channel once < 1293206890 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: that needs you to prove that a = a+a means a =0 < 1293206894 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*a = 0 < 1293206920 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x=a+x -> x-x=a+x-x -> 0=a < 1293206945 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Theorem foo S (R : ring S) : < 1293206945 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : forall a, (pr_mul (p:=R) a (mn_1 (m:=pr_ag R))) = (mn_1 (m:=pr_ag R)). < 1293206948 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hard enough just to formulate it! < 1293206992 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus... why Coq / etc. are not good for proving theorems < 1293207171 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: thus why unjustified generalisation < 1293207172 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stfu < 1293207175 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : S : Set < 1293207175 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : R : ring S < 1293207175 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : a : R < 1293207182 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol i just realised i structured this in a way that I can't prove a:S < 1293207190 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH WELL time to soldier on < 1293207270 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is 0+a = a left identity or right? < 1293207273 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :similarly a+0 = a < 1293207318 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Theorem bar S (R : ring S) : < 1293207319 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : forall a, (pr_add (p:=R) a mn_1) = a. < 1293207319 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : intros. < 1293207319 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : unfold pr_add. < 1293207319 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : apply mn_right_ident. < 1293207319 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Qed. < 1293207321 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a start < 1293207421 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293207901 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :left < 1293208309 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later < 1293208338 0 :cheater99!~cheater@g231048068.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293208477 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1293208815 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293208913 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293209883 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1293209991 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: rewrite rules are superior < 1293210007 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: for... theorem proving? < 1293210012 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: you have no fucking clue what you're talking about < 1293210024 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really? why? < 1293210042 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: I am eagerly awaiting your proof of the four-colour theorem in a term rewriting language < 1293210047 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :until then, no. < 1293210111 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293211040 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: does writing Coq in a term rewriting language count? < 1293211067 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: Anyone can Greenspun. The answer is no. < 1293211090 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good luck: (1) Finding out how on earth you use term rewriting evaluation to "prove" something, especially without a powerful type system; (2) Formulating the proof. < 1293211107 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(3) Formulating the proof _without Coq's large array of tactics_, no less. < 1293211215 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293211312 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293211339 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, it's pretty simple. I define equality to be two constructs, "rewrite to" and "rewrite from", and then Coq proofs are term-rewriting proofs, and Coq's tactics are then term rewriting strategies < 1293211566 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: hahahaha < 1293211571 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: i take it you have no idea how coq actually works < 1293211620 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe; my conception is probably inaccurate in the details < 1293211629 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: any progress btw? < 1293211636 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: more than the details, I'd say ... < 1293211650 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm tired :( < 1293211693 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: category theory solves all problems! including tiredness! < 1293211898 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the big picture is that category theory just organises things and seperates concerns, you still need to construct things by hand (e.g. using inductive definitions, recursive functions, composites) - so I might try and rewrite the equation prover thing without the categorical frame so I can use it to prove the early lemmas < 1293211939 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be cool < 1293211972 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right now it just interprets everything as (typed) lists, with composition as append -- I think I could also add in things like fg = id < 1293212030 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other hand its a lot of work and I don't know if it will survive being turned upside down like that < 1293212126 0 :Zuu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1293212154 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I should just press on and define limits < 1293212269 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what i'd do < 1293212415 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293212494 0 :cheater99!~cheater@g231048068.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293212513 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293212536 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: here we are... Coq tactics *are* rewrite rules < 1293212544 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: wrong, they're programs < 1293212555 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact IIRC they can even not halt (j-invariant?) < 1293212577 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rewrite rules are programs, and can be non-terminating < 1293212622 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: Coq tactics *are* brainfuck programs < 1293212629 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brainfuck programs are programs, and can be non-terminating < 1293212640 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: Coq tactics *are* rule 110 initial states < 1293212640 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc. < 1293212673 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: no, they're rewrite rules. they take propositions and turn them into other propositions. < 1293212683 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err. not really. < 1293212687 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brainfuck programs aren't that general < 1293212701 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, what? < 1293212710 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :send proposition on stdin, get new proposition on stdout. < 1293212756 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1293212860 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, we seem to different definitions. I interpret rewrite rules as "most general thing ever invented". you seem to interpret them as "esoteric thing nobody uses" < 1293212936 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :firstly, those two aren't definitions. < 1293212939 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :secondly, I like rewrite rules perfectly well. < 1293212946 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thirdly, as they aren't definitions, they prove nothing. < 1293212974 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/definitions/assumptions/ then < 1293212998 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, they also aren't interpretations. < 1293213003 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i have no idea whatsoever what you are trying to convey < 1293213054 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Coq you have a situation like x:T, y:B, z:B->T->W |- _ : W < 1293213102 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tactics fill in the gap. e.g. you might do apply z. then you get x:T, y:B, z:B->T->W |- z _ _ : W < 1293213132 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: we have different assumptions, leading to differing opinions/interpretations. so I am wondering where we start to disagree. < 1293213161 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you take contexts and programming problems you can view tactics as rewrite rules < 1293213165 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: what are our differing assumptions? how are they at all relevant to the situation at hand? what do you think the situation at hand is? < 1293213205 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's useless to do so because we're not interested in the tactic language < 1293213240 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just some tacky script language that helps you program faster, like typeclasses in haskell or macros in lisp < 1293213241 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: that makes sense. < 1293213347 0 :elliott_!~elliott@91.105.86.45 JOIN :#esoteric < 1293213348 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the way you use it is more like (an advanced version of) prolog < 1293213361 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it has pproof search and unification and such < 1293213370 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a _very_ advanced version of prolog :P < 1293213459 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I was too busy living in meta-meta-land to notice ;-) < 1293213561 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1293213731 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the scoop with rewrite systems anyway < 1293213763 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aren't they just another universal computer? < 1293213806 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but they're a "nice" universal computer, nicer IMO than lambdas < 1293213836 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1293213906 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Deewiant: The server is back up, BTW. Don't think ineiros pinged you two yesterday. < 1293213909 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Without hMod though.) < 1293213934 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: they are pretty nice because you can implement most other things in terms of them ... and also pattern matching on constructors comes "built in", there's no special notion of a constructor < 1293213955 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you write down a rewrite system: You don't know if it's confluent or not do you? < 1293213960 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: as in, implement other things /nicely/ in terms of them < 1293213977 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think confluence is overrated < 1293213980 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there any use of a non-confluent rewrite system? < 1293213992 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, for computing < 1293214014 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :non-deterministic computing? < 1293214017 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no? < 1293214022 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is it nondeterministic? < 1293214049 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: do you mean like, given "foo x = x; foo (bar x y) = quux x y", you don't know which rule to apply for "foo (bar a b)"? < 1293214063 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: because, generally you have a rule for this -- e.g. "most specific match", so it'd be the second < 1293214070 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :built into the language < 1293214146 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but imposing that restriction makes the system confluent < 1293214196 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: then yes, you do know whether it's confluent or not: it is! < 1293214331 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: you may be interested in the Q language http://q-lang.sourceforge.net/ and its successor http://code.google.com/p/pure-lang/ (which, inexplicably, is very fast; faster than Python etc.) < 1293214474 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, fast; i should say efficient < 1293214513 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: also rewriting languages are pretty "extensible" < 1293214523 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., you can easily add new cases to a function from "anywhere", codewis < 1293214524 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e < 1293214534 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: which means you don't need typeclasses < 1293214542 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say you have a few constructors for your new numeric type < 1293214544 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then all you have to do is < 1293214551 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :add (C1 ...) (C1 ...) = ... < 1293214552 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :add (C1 ...) (C2 ...) = ... < 1293214553 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc. < 1293214564 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if infix + is bound to add, then it all magically works < 1293214638 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats useful < 1293214803 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: but when doing term rewriting stuff i *do* miss lambdas a bit ... I think there could be a term rewriting language that somehow makes rules themselves first class, so you could pass around anonymous rules < 1293214806 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i haven't seen that done yet < 1293214842 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: I don't think people use non-confluent systems by choice; it's just that they don't bother adding in the rules to make it confluent < 1293214874 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's some new(ish) pattern languages but I haven't been able to find the books on them yet so dunno < 1293214942 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: I just mean, you are able to write down non-confluent systems -- so how do we make use of that? < 1293214945 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: that's the programming language I'm trying to write < 1293214962 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: message passing and multiple dispatch are not pattern matching. sorry. < 1293214994 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: the messages passed are rewrite rules < 1293215001 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the difference? :D < 1293215020 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: also term rewriting lets you do fun things like this < 1293215022 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> foldl (+) 0 [a,b,c,d,e,f,g]; < 1293215022 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0+a+b+c+d+e+f+g < 1293215025 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1293215056 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats new ?? < 1293215143 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: well, it's just a silly example. < 1293215148 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's still pretty neat. < 1293215154 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(foldl is defined the normal way) < 1293215191 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if I made a rule < 1293215199 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :random = 1 ; random = 2 ; random = 3 < 1293215202 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then random + random ? < 1293215211 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> random=1;random=2;random=3; < 1293215211 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> random; < 1293215211 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :warning: rule never reduced: random = 2; < 1293215211 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :warning: rule never reduced: random = 3; < 1293215211 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 < 1293215222 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: basically I'd say "random = 1; random = 2; random = 3" is an invalid program < 1293215228 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you have ambiguous rules < 1293215241 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it must be very hard to recognize valid/invalid programs < 1293215255 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: not really < 1293215257 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well may be < 1293215259 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*maybe < 1293215264 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there an algorithm? < 1293215269 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably, but i don't know it < 1293215276 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean it depends on your rule for specificity < 1293215280 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: it's easy not to write invalid programs though IME < 1293215284 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would never write anything like that random thing < 1293215288 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: i mean, you know in haskell < 1293215301 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many times do you write a haskell program with two "f (X ...) ... = ..." that are ambiguous? < 1293215304 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never do < 1293215414 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1293215902 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: in my language, that would make random a type. (particularly, the type containing only 1, 2, and 3) < 1293216031 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, does that make any sense? types are more like predicates < 1293216093 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my type predicates are all "reachable by running rewrite rules" < 1293216105 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g., < 1293216105 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nat 0 = true < 1293216105 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nat (S n) = nat n < 1293216105 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nat _ = false < 1293216145 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so "nat = 0; nat = S n" would specify the type nat < 1293216156 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then e.g. < 1293216157 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::: if nat n then nat (fact n) else true < 1293216157 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fact 0 = S 0 < 1293216157 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fact (S n) = S n * fact n < 1293216161 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: really? < 1293216167 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: so "S S" is a nat? < 1293216170 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely you mean "nat = S nat" < 1293216184 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, yeah. good point. < 1293216217 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, if we say that "x:f" = "f x" and also have -> for boolean implication (i.e. true->Q = Q, false->Q = true), then < 1293216220 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::: n:nat -> (fact n):nat < 1293216220 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fact 0 = S 0 < 1293216220 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fact (S n) = S n * fact n < 1293216222 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be correct < 1293216306 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION just has fact nat = nat < 1293216343 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't make any sense < 1293216347 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fac nat = {1,2,6,24,...} < 1293216349 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :N! is not N < 1293216358 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :N being naturals < 1293216363 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: that i could understand. < 1293216395 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : !1+i.11 < 1293216395 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 2 6 24 120 720 5040 40320 362880 3.6288e6 3.99168e7 < 1293216398 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: J has that :P < 1293216445 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: curses, you're right. fact nat : nat < 1293216457 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see. what does "a : b" mean? < 1293216464 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably it reduces down to a rewrite rule of some kind. < 1293216588 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an upper bound; it says "the set of results of rewriting 'fact nat' will produce a subset of the natural numbers" < 1293216615 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := is a lower bound < 1293216749 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: i don't suppose you have an algorithm for typechecking this < 1293216789 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a general algorithm; with that I could solve everything. but for specific cases I do < 1293216881 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: can you explain to Mathnerd314 why a type system without a type checker is useless, I'm too lazy to < 1293216896 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'm imagining Coq going "You might have proved this! I can't tell!" < 1293217001 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: you can check bounds on types easily < 1293217027 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: if you can't check types in general, it's not a type system < 1293217046 0 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1293217062 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, it's not a type system. it's a proof system. < 1293217070 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ... < 1293217083 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: a proof system that can't tell you whether your proof is valid or not? < 1293217083 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :useful! < 1293217116 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, it's the thing you prove proofs about. I don't know what you call that. < 1293217148 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are two things to consider < 1293217151 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* What can you compute? < 1293217154 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* What can you define? < 1293217204 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a turing machine computes and defines recursive sets. ZFC computes nothing but defines a huge chunk of mathematics < 1293217213 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :much more than just recursive sets < 1293217305 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : sorry, it's the thing you prove proofs about. I don't know what you call that. < 1293217307 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1293217315 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: zfc scares me < 1293217348 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: < 1293217351 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1293217352 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mistype < 1293217411 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1293217416 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I am going to write a parser generator < 1293217426 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no! < 1293217433 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :write a generator parser instead < 1293217461 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, merry christmas < 1293217491 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: it's a system, with semantics. you can "run" the statements with =, producing results, and you can "infer" the statements with :, producing bounds < 1293217600 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it's the 24th you bum < 1293217644 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: christmas starts officially 17:00 today in norway < 1293217654 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: really? that's just weird. < 1293217657 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you guys are stupid and smelly. < 1293217659 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :elliott < 1293217663 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: and you can prove things about running and inference. < 1293217664 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1293217664 0 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1293217671 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's when they ring all the church bells < 1293217672 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: you can't prove anything if you don't have a type checker < 1293217708 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf? 2+2=4; there's no stinking type checker < 1293217736 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: what/ < 1293217738 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*what? < 1293217751 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a proof system, yes? presumably one based on some kind of type theory. < 1293217755 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i have this theory it may be a holdover from when days were considered to start at sunset (as the jews still do for sabbath etc.) < 1293217755 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore you need a type checker to check your proofs. < 1293217762 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by your own admission you don't have a general typechecker < 1293217767 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yeah yeah, silly nord < 1293217808 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION reads wikipedia more < 1293217820 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it's an "abstract machine" < 1293217862 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you just reading wikipedia, picking random vaguely-related words from there, and applying them? < 1293217872 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so far I have not a single idea how your system works, what it's intended to do, or what components it has at all < 1293217881 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea how you expect to be able to write and verify proofs. < 1293217902 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, precisely. < 1293217917 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1293217923 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know yourself? < 1293217926 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1293217932 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: then why are you wasting my time? < 1293217949 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: he imght just be too tired at this point < 1293217961 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: are you sure you're not generalising from a sample of 1? :D < 1293217968 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from all the arguing LOL < 1293217981 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I might be < 1293218038 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: do you want an accurate answer? < 1293218047 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: sure? < 1293218078 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION starts preparing his 100-page thesis < 1293218123 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: on why you're wasting my time? < 1293218139 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. probably won't be 100 pages though. < 1293218278 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1293218873 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: http://pastebin.com/SvDE6sZr < 1293218917 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"10. He has an inflated ego (from being good at math)" <-- I wonder what to call this, it's not a self-fulfilling prophecy ... hmm ... < 1293218927 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i demand 100 pages < 1293219094 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION writes his college essays < 1293219688 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Vorpal, fizzie, elliott and others who might care: [...] < 1293219720 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But right, Deewiant was left out. < 1293219791 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Poor Deewiant. < 1293220070 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'Tis rather lonely on there right now. < 1293220188 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Incidentally, I found your secret chest. It's empty. < 1293220267 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it's not. < 1293220284 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or do you mean the thing under my floorboards in the house? < 1293220299 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I mean the thing with the secret entrance to the left of your fire. < 1293220307 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right. < 1293220314 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not very secret. < 1293220321 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: To be fair, I am very dense. < 1293220330 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott the black hole < 1293220339 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I'll bother taking out all your floorboards, though. :p < 1293220345 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also another chest under the floor in front of that chest, but that's currently empty also. < 1293220355 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I moved stuff elsewhere. < 1293220375 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, back to socializing. -¥ < 1293220380 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What. < 1293220384 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> < 1293220779 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOD FUCKING DAMMIT < 1293220782 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOTCH YOU BASTARD < 1293220794 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HOW COME DESTROYING MY CART WHILE I'M IN IT < 1293220796 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SUFFOCATES ME < 1293220801 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I WANT MY POSSESSIONS BACK NOTCH < 1293221611 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293221719 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1293221930 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott go play my game < 1293221933 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://64pixels.org < 1293221933 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::FD < 1293221934 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D* < 1293221958 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't run Java programs that aren't Minecraft. < 1293221973 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::[ < 1293222079 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Port it to Haskell. :p < 1293222090 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you do it < 1293222122 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1293222129 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gimme the source then. < 1293222151 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott i have not obfuscated the code < 1293222154 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can easily decompile it < 1293222154 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1293222158 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :decompiled code != source < 1293222175 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is almost equal nowadays < 1293222179 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both of them are ugly in my case < 1293222226 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haven't found a decent open-source java compiler < 1293222278 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*decompiler < 1293222279 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not compiler < 1293222339 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott - http://64pixels.org/christmas.png < 1293222342 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is something in my game < 1293222344 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reconsider playing it < 1293222345 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1293222354 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiek2erka: i saw in the looks. i also said "what.". < 1293222380 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1293222383 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's multiplayer! < 1293222383 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*logs < 1293222384 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not looks < 1293222385 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fff i can't spell < 1293222407 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe if you explain wtf http://64pixels.org/christmas.png is < 1293222424 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A very ASCII Christmas < 1293222433 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :6 screenshots glued together < 1293222436 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of this giant scene < 1293222488 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't get the relevance of the bible quote ... well, except that christmas used to be vaguely related to christianity after they took it from the pagans, but that seems to be a rather tenuous link < 1293222513 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhhhhhhhhhhh < 1293222516 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :christmas < 1293222534 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Christmas = the joys of rampant consumerism; your point? < 1293222548 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is not what it is supposed to be < 1293222589 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiek2erka: is it "supposed" to be anything? there's no evidence at all that jesus was born on the 25th, and in fact the historical record very clearly shows that it was picked to coincide with a pagan day < 1293222601 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't remember the last time i saw christmas associated with christianity in... any way at all really < 1293222602 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiek2erka: um, you do realize elliott is this channel's resident semi-militant atheist? < 1293222612 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i'm not a semi-militant atheist, and it's not about that < 1293222621 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just don't see how modern christmas is related to christianity in any way < 1293222625 0 :cheater99!~cheater@g231048068.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293222661 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: hey i added the semi- just to avoid your protests :D < 1293222674 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't have been confused if the bible quote even /mentioned/ jesus at all :p < 1293222706 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it's what the angels said when Christ was born AFAIK < 1293222710 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :said or sang < 1293222717 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiek2erka: I don't think that actually happened :-P < 1293222723 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: well, /r/atheism irritates me as much as anyone :P ... so at least I'm not a typical reddit atheist! < 1293222726 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well christians believe it did < 1293222738 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiek2erka: I'm nitpicking at this point :P < 1293222748 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also you can never be 100% sure < 1293222756 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/at this point/always/ < 1293222777 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION geeses < 1293222780 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiek2erka: Indeed -- that's why I worship the tiny china teapot orbiting around the sun in an elliptical orbit between the Earth and Mars. < 1293222782 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1293222786 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I trust it will bring me salvation. < 1293222797 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(side note: that would be a way better fake religion than FSM) < 1293222797 0 :cheater99!~cheater@g231048068.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293222813 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it's your belief, go ahead < 1293222817 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i agree with the side note < 1293222817 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293222818 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TOTALLY < 1293222834 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tomorrow I will celebrate The Day of the Revelation of the Teapot. < 1293222849 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how much believers does your religion have < 1293222854 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we are proud to have over a billion < 1293222861 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293222865 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You measure the accuracy of beliefs by how many people believe them? < 1293222869 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1293222872 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293222879 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just that so many people believe us. why < 1293222882 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, uh, me and Bertrand Russell, which is pretty damn good company if you ask me. < 1293222899 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiek2erka: Um, because Christians went crusading to convert all the evil nonbelievers quite a while back and it worked surprisingly well ...? < 1293222912 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Well, I can't disagree with this argument < 1293222913 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As opposed to all the Buddhist missionaries going around. < 1293222930 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Solipsist missionaries are the best though.) < 1293222942 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :("I'm just saying ... I don't really exist. Only you do. Think about it.") < 1293222974 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1293222982 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Christians took Pagan holidays for their own use to stop paganism < 1293223005 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surprisingly effective. < 1293223008 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes! < 1293223015 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you consider that a good thing? < 1293223021 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1293223028 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do not accept the fact we christians used force < 1293223039 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(lol spanish inquisition) < 1293223042 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we've changed since then < 1293223051 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we don't do spanish inquisitions anymore, do we < 1293223069 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiek2erka: Do you really think all of Christianity is united with a single opinion? < 1293223085 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not all < 1293223090 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're saying "we" like you're a group of 10 likeminded people, not a group of N billion people believing the same basic vague thing but with millions of differences beyond that. < 1293223120 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1293223121 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haven't we < 1293223128 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? < 1293223133 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also why are you arguing with a 13-year-old < 1293223138 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the most nonsensical thing ever < 1293223145 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What. < 1293223177 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed. asiek2erka, go to your room! < 1293223188 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is asiek2erka /asking/ me to discount his opinions based on his age? < 1293223209 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, isn't asiek2erka polish? < 1293223209 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: a sure sign of immaturity if i ever saw one! < 1293223226 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i seem to recall christianity having a very strong grip on poland ... going by my source for all information about poland ... that's right ... nooga! < 1293223250 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very reliable if you ask me < 1293223259 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i recall recently seeing some headline about polish church attendance taking a nosedive < 1293223281 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott no < 1293223293 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am telling you why the hell are you arguing with someone that should be less intelligent than you < 1293223295 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like trolls < 1293223300 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they take you down to their level < 1293223306 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then beat you with their stupid argumentatino < 1293223330 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you're older than someone you're smarter than them? < 1293223351 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiek2erka: um this is #esoteric. here age is not the strongest indicator of intelligence by far. < 1293223354 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually < 1293223355 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: sure, but it's more the early years that matter I would expect fwiw < 1293223360 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to make someone christian < 1293223361 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you had more experience in life < 1293223367 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it is anywhere < 1293223368 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiek2erka: lol < 1293223376 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott look < 1293223380 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about we just go like this < 1293223382 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you believe what you want < 1293223384 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i believe what i want < 1293223388 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and let's live in peaced < 1293223389 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :peace* < 1293223392 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's been minutes since i questioned anything you said. < 1293223398 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well apart from the age-intelligence correlation. which is just stupid. < 1293223456 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's go back to what we started < 1293223457 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :christmas < 1293223481 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The word Christmas originated as a compound meaning "Christ's Mass"." < 1293223535 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://retire-well-life.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/santa-claus.jpg Pictured: Jesus. < 1293223554 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, in Chronographai, a reference work published in 221, Sextus Julius Africanus suggested that Jesus was conceived on the spring equinox, popularizing the idea that Christ was born on December 25. < 1293223561 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of your arguments is right < 1293223567 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We do not know when Jesus was really born < 1293223572 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was only a suggestion and everyone said "ok" < 1293223599 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are better estimates < 1293223604 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC it's something like July < 1293223618 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, if the historical jesus actually exists, which is arguable, but anyway < 1293223618 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he New Testament does not give a date for the birth of Jesus. <- that means any guesses cannot be 100% sure even for christians < 1293223629 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right ... because everything not in the new testament is false? < 1293223636 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1293223645 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for christians the new testament is 100% true < 1293223646 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while < 1293223649 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the rest may not be 100% true < 1293223653 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : for christians the new testament is 100% true < 1293223657 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, er, hate to break it to you, but that's not even remotely so. < 1293223657 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no < 1293223663 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do not get on apocryphas < 1293223678 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know of a single person who follows even the new testament 100% to the letter. < 1293223689 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1293223694 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: hello < 1293223699 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is true but nobody reads it because nobody cares! < 1293223703 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott: Vorpal, fizzie, elliott and others who might care: [...] <-- he is included in others < 1293223712 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most Christians, at least in Poland, declare they are christians < 1293223713 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but it didn't ping him, so. :p < 1293223714 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but do not do anything < 1293223719 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, happy xmas everyone < 1293223721 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they just declare and... maybe pray every evening < 1293223727 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and do not give a **** about anything else < 1293223734 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a Muslim! I demonstrate my Musliminity by doing nothing. < 1293223739 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In Sweden we celebrate the 24th.) < 1293223752 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yes, yet more evidence that you're uncivilised backwater vikings. < 1293223775 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, rather, the reverse < 1293223788 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cool; I'm a viking. < 1293223830 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, the other reverse < 1293223834 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(everyone else is backwards) < 1293223846 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, but yes you probably are a viking as well < 1293223857 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a backwards one maybe < 1293223869 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone get on Minecraft, it is terribly quiet today. < 1293223872 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you mean he's a gnikiv!? [/lamejoke] < 1293223878 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiek2erka, XD < 1293223885 0 :cheater99!~cheater@g231048068.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293223888 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, nah, I'm going to dig into this ioctl < 1293223899 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And mine it for ore? < 1293223905 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ... what? < 1293223910 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1293223928 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, been porting the pc-speaker tune playing code from freebsd to linux. As an user space app in this case. < 1293223932 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost done < 1293223939 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you going to craft a pc speaker from an ioctl and the user space < 1293223952 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I have a problem however. beep(1) is GPL. Not GPL2. GPL. < 1293223961 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: So? < 1293223969 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, and there are some magic constants I need from there < 1293223980 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Those aren't copyrightable. < 1293223982 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, because I haven't been able to find docs on the IOCTL < 1293223986 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ioctl* < 1293224001 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Small magic numbers aren't copyrightable; even if they are, another program's copy of them isn't. < 1293224008 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it is rather large. Over 9000 < 1293224014 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(over 90000 even!) < 1293224030 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Srsly -- not copyrightable. If the author of beep didn't invent those constants, there is no justification for saying its license applies. < 1293224046 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it is something like jiffies per timer interrupt of original IBM XT timer < 1293224055 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't have the computer with the code on turned on atm < 1293224057 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(just got home) < 1293224057 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293224086 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What Painterly glass texture do you use? :p < 1293224098 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, the same as I told you about before < 1293224103 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget. >_> < 1293224143 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(don't you hate it when someone says "same place as usual" when you ask where something is? I certainly do) < 1293224177 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TO MOUNT HOOVER! < 1293224184 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it has a thin white border, it has some glints in opposite corners < 1293224191 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. The one I currently have then. < 1293224194 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like the fact that it has two glints. < 1293224245 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I've died twice -- yesterday and today -- because of destroying the cart while I was in it pushing me into the block below and me suffocating. < 1293224270 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It didn't happen when health was off; I did sink but I didn't suffocate and I could easily jump back up. I don't know whether to blame health or the beta update. Sigh. < 1293224279 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, huh < 1293224298 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just happened again! Disconnected before I died though. Please, god, don't make me waste more of my diamond. Let me be back above. < 1293224307 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOPE I DIED LOL < 1293224314 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, stop doing it then < 1293224335 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a habit; it's more efficient. It's Notch's bug, not mine. Now to run to the minecart station. < 1293224336 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I mean, doing it again and again just to complain isn't likely to be very constructive since notch is not here < 1293224358 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I KEEP FORGETTING < 1293224388 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, can you forget that you dislike me? < 1293224440 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ha -- my inventory duplicated. < 1293224443 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I can't pick up any of it. < 1293224448 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, heh < 1293224455 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also there's a minecart on fire. < 1293224460 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1293224460 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c < 1293224461 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1293224461 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except it's a booster on the *other* track. < 1293224481 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, dw mentioned something about something similar up north some days ago < 1293224481 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No wait! < 1293224483 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :before beta < 1293224486 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*My* cart overlapped the booster. < 1293224489 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in, exactly on top of each other. < 1293224494 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My cart has somehow gone onto the other track, and caught fire. < 1293224513 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, it is seemingly invincible. I can move though it and it won't move, and I can't destroy it. < 1293224516 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOTCH QUALITY ENGINEERING < 1293224543 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, the option in the painterly customiser is: "I want windows with reflections in the corners." < 1293224569 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1293224610 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Things can catch fire in MC? < 1293224623 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...yes. < 1293224624 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I can just dump the cookie it remembers things with I guess < 1293224635 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Project: FUCK THE WORLD < 1293224641 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@64.231.54.113 JOIN :#esoteric < 1293224654 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, http://sprunge.us/fYdb < 1293224666 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you do that, I want to see screenshots < 1293224685 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, they don't burn for long mostly < 1293224692 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a lot of stuff don't burn at all < 1293224711 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I never seen minecarts burning at all. And since they are iron they shouldn't < 1293224728 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiek2erka: http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/1135238941_tVKGy-L.jpg < 1293224729 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION trolling < 1293224742 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Well, things could also pass through it. And it was invincible. < 1293224818 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, probably a bug then < 1293224823 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, does it actually boost? < 1293224828 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: As I said, it wasn't a booster. < 1293224832 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, oh < 1293224834 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It was just perfectly overlapped with the booster, which still moves. < 1293224834 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, missed that < 1293224841 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea how it teleported to where the booster is. < 1293224842 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I bet it is a client bug then < 1293224849 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: This was after disconnecting and reconnecting. < 1293224858 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what if you reconnect again? < 1293224862 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I did... < 1293224866 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1293224867 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, everything caught fire when I fell under the track. < 1293224874 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So presumably it teleported from there ... to where the booster was ... on the other track. < 1293224875 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SOMEHOW < 1293224882 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And became pass-through (like see-through except, you know). < 1293224884 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And invincible. < 1293224885 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, is there any lava under the track? < 1293224901 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. At least I recall burning, and I think there's obsidian there. < 1293224931 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, idea: clear out a space tall enough to stand in below, then you won't suffocate I think, instead you /ought/ to fall through, and just get some fall damage < 1293224940 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then be able to walk up given facilities for that < 1293224941 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How much can lava spread? Can it be pumped? < 1293224960 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, which sort of lava? < 1293224962 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Or just wait for health to disappear again :P < 1293224967 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, whichever < 1293224975 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, well, define spread. < 1293224987 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Flow across the world < 1293224993 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consuming everything < 1293225001 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, 4 tiles on flat ground iirc < 1293225009 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I mean, even a racist clock is right twice a day." < 1293225010 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, it can flow over an edge and get another 4 < 1293225019 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what < 1293225027 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, in fact, what is a racist clock < 1293225035 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: --Gabe, Penny Arcade < 1293225059 0 :cheater99!~cheater@g231048068.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293225084 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are porkchops good for two uses, or is that just SMP bugs duplicating it? < 1293225105 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, as far as I know they 1) don't stack 2) go away in one use < 1293225105 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bugs, it seems. < 1293225115 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It goes away, then it reappears. Picking something up replaces it in its slot. < 1293225123 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I think if you right click while the dupe is there it works. < 1293225123 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, so infinite pork? < 1293225127 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: No. < 1293225129 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It disappears the second time. < 1293225133 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because of logic. < 1293225139 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, .... does it heal the second time? < 1293225144 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think so. < 1293225150 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I dunno; my health bar is full. < 1293225150 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this makes no sense < 1293225155 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It wasn't very reliable on the survival server. < 1293225161 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I don't really know. < 1293225168 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Feel free to jump off a cliff and test it :P < 1293225183 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293225189 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :STUCK ON A FENCE < 1293225196 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Hoover farm is terribly positioned. < 1293225201 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have to jump almost over it to get to the mines the way I do. < 1293225202 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ... how? < 1293225209 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Jumpin' onto it < 1293225212 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, uh. why not walk around it a bit < 1293225217 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was above it. < 1293225220 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I jumped, and miscalculated. < 1293225224 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slam, fence. Boing boing boing. < 1293225225 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you don't want to jump onto the farmland anyway < 1293225228 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Boingy boingy boingy. < 1293225266 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, uh did you take the long stairs. Don't they go just past? < 1293225274 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go past what? < 1293225308 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, go past the point of the end of the farm, such that the farm is alongside the straight stairs < 1293225371 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope. < 1293225374 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They emerge a little bit from the farm. < 1293225377 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, thing I don't like with painterly: every pack icon has a creeper < 1293225381 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yes, I could go straight but I'd have to turn after that. < 1293225387 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Is there something wrong with that? :P < 1293225402 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahhh, home sweet Hoover Heavy Industries Research Facility. < 1293225409 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you don't see it often, but mmm... I don't like creepers < 1293225491 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, does mcmap work yet? < 1293225497 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yes. More or less. < 1293225501 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It crashes "sometimes". < 1293225512 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if phanty would object to me expanding the HHI research facility; it is rather small. < 1293225575 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HHI? < 1293225591 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Hoover Heavy Industries. < 1293225598 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Our services include many services. All our services are secret. < 1293225607 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you wish to make use of our services, contact us with money. < 1293225763 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"After experimenting with the device for nearly two days, three Baptist Pastors were hospitalized with broken hips, two 14 year old girls were accidentally impregnated, and one 10-year old boy had his testicles permanently damaged." < 1293225821 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: BEST DEVICE EVER < 1293225838 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott is now a Microsoft fan. < 1293225842 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wut < 1293225845 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: wat < 1293225849 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.landoverbaptist.org/2010/december/luciferstoychest2010.html < 1293225857 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh man, I thought it was a real thing :( < 1293225865 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh landoverbaptist < 1293225922 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Discerning Christian parents will immediately recognize the "Mindflex" as a crudely designed masturbation device. Simply put, it is cheap imitation of Scientology's, E-Meter - "E" meaning, "Eeeee!" or "OUCH!" as our team of specialists can attest to after squatting down on both devices for seven days." < 1293225955 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: here's for you http://www.reddit.com/r/circlejerk/comments/eqw92/i_wish_atheist_redditors_a_very_merry_xmas/ < 1293225976 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ah, /r/circlejerk ... the more moderate version of the rest of reddit < 1293225995 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is browsing r/all < 1293226044 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess this is a sign of advanced addiction < 1293226051 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: sec < 1293226055 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=55700&start=300 < 1293226065 0 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1293226065 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: leave the map one off but turn on better grass and light is what i'd recommend :P < 1293226067 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1293226070 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hm < 1293226073 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=55700 < 1293226088 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: bettergrass requires betterlight, so < 1293226091 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least for now < 1293226094 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dear computer: What the fucking fucking fuck? < 1293226101 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, EINSUFFICIENTCOMPUTER < 1293226107 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: um i used it < 1293226110 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it's fine < 1293226115 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: barely slows down at all < 1293226124 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: the slowdown was from me also using far and fancy which my computer can't even remotely handle /anyway/ < 1293226129 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, besides I like the worse light. Useful when building something to match up an overhang < 1293226133 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows, or something claiming to be such, I guess, told me it was low on memory < 1293226141 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you can see exactly where you need to go based on the shadow :P < 1293226149 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now the screen is blank < 1293226192 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1, I never had that happen on linux (har har) < 1293226195 0 :cheater99!~cheater@g231048068.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293226205 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if there's any malware that fakes that < 1293226209 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it generally never told me first, and I blame nvidia when things went shit) < 1293226224 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ibwasnt running much < 1293226260 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1, yeah, and OOM should not cause that < 1293226262 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1293226264 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it never has for me < 1293226283 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :§simoleon! < 1293226311 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Encyclopædia < 1293226336 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293226364 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, nah, I don't want better light, it seems to make things look dark based on screenshots < 1293226408 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, all I want is to make 2/3rd side grass work with painterly and biome grass < 1293226424 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it doesn't, i've used it < 1293226432 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's easy to uninstall, just rm -rf bin < 1293226437 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just give it a try :p < 1293226475 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1293226577 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1293226750 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I think you either have to choose no side-grass, inconsistent side-grass or just single-color all-grass. < 1293226872 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, there isn't no-side grass iirc, Even the default pack has some side grass < 1293226883 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, does it work with the small setting on side grass? < 1293226899 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1293226909 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1293226909 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, but it does for the default texture pack! < 1293226931 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but the thing that loads from texture packs can't biomize sidecrass, I think. Or something like that, anyway. < 1293226931 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn farkers can be idiots. I think about half of them aren't sure if Landover Baptist is parody < 1293226938 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Or you can have biome-compliant 1/1 grass. < 1293226940 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.fark.com/cgi/comments.pl?IDLink=5847704 < 1293226942 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, is there any mode for that? < 1293226945 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With Better Grass. :p < 1293226957 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I don't want /complete/ side grass < 1293226965 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I want the 2/3rd option in painterly < 1293226965 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Um, that's what Better Grass does. < 1293226970 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, yes and I don't want that < 1293226980 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, tough, you can't have it. < 1293227013 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, quite, but probably there is some other mod < 1293227050 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'll probably get officially fixed too at some point. Ot < 1293227050 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: There isn't. < 1293227059 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's there in the top-ten of getsatisfaction common-problems. < 1293227072 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, true < 1293227103 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiek2erka: Your game won't even start. < 1293227165 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So how goes SMP. < 1293227173 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott yes it will < 1293227178 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiek2erka: No it won't, I just tried. < 1293227182 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you using < 1293227183 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless there's a special key to start. < 1293227189 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sun's JVM? OpenJDK? < 1293227193 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :JamVM? HotSpot? < 1293227197 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IcedTea? < 1293227216 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OpenJDK, and no, I'm not changing; if it doesn't work, it's a problem in your code. And Sun's JVM *is* HotSpot, and IcedTea *is* OpenJDK (well, almost; slightly different VM is the only difference.) < 1293227217 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also browser or download < 1293227220 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Browser. < 1293227225 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott try download < 1293227229 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1293227234 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haven't tested it in openjdk yet < 1293227241 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont even know where the **** you can get openjdk for windows < 1293227264 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Download and install the open-source JDK 6 for Ubuntu 8.04 (or later), Fedora 9 (or later), Red Hat Enterprise Linux 5, openSUSE 11.1, Debian GNU/Linux 5.0, or OpenSolaris. If you came here looking for JDK 6 product binaries for Solaris, Linux, or Windows, which are based largely on the same code, you can download them from java.sun.com." < 1293227276 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The code is basically identical. < 1293227280 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's your code's fault; fix it. < 1293227292 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't if i can't see what's wrong < 1293227293 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>:( < 1293227299 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does OpenJDK implement javax.imageio < 1293227308 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and javax.swing < 1293227308 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OpenJDK implements everything. < 1293227313 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see the menu, I just can't select any of the options. < 1293227317 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :click on the window < 1293227318 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Using arrow keys, WASD, space, enter. < 1293227318 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duhh < 1293227321 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did. Duhh. < 1293227323 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1293227328 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arrows should work perfectly < 1293227334 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :click on the select menu a few times < 1293227335 0 :cheater99!~cheater@g231048068.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293227342 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does implement the ImageIO stuff, though there were some OpenJDK imageio bugs I had to work-around in one project. < 1293227353 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something related to filters, I forget what exactly. < 1293227368 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiek2erka, what is this game (note I only have openjdk and/or icedtea as well) < 1293227374 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal it should work < 1293227376 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://64pixels.org < 1293227382 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an ASCII infinite open world game < 1293227388 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with logic circuits < 1293227391 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and multiplayer < 1293227399 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiek2erka, wait, why do I get dejavu < 1293227408 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiek2erka: Add WASD keys. < 1293227419 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: BUT ZOMG, JEB VISITED!1129012012 < 1293227422 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MOJANG FAMOUS < 1293227425 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1293227430 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott i did < 1293227436 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, they don't do anything. < 1293227440 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C:\Documents and Settings\[username]\.64pixels\config.txt < 1293227441 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiek2erka, also ascii? < 1293227444 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :add a line "wsad-mode=1" < 1293227449 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiek2erka, I see graphics < 1293227450 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiek2erka: No. Make them work by default. < 1293227453 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott no < 1293227455 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It's DOS codepage. < 1293227459 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: So what idiots think "ASCII" is. < 1293227461 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do not like WSAD < 1293227470 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiek2erka: They do nothing by default, so there is no reason not to have them work. < 1293227470 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293227476 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiek2erka, do arrow keys work then < 1293227484 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal yes < 1293227523 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, if it is a dos code page, it seems unlikely to work under linux? < 1293227530 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott < 1293227534 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the charset is a raw dump of the CGA ROM < 1293227537 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's stored that way < 1293227544 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore IBM should hate me by now < 1293227548 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as the CGA ROM is most likely copyrighted < 1293227550 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://64pixels.org/scr5.png "64pixels 0.0.3.1, a random creation" <-- the hell < 1293227558 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, doesn't that look familiar to you < 1293227561 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION falls in love with the Landover Baptist Bible Quizes < 1293227569 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: One might consider it is intentional. < 1293227577 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, sure, but the title! < 1293227577 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not the player thing, anyway. < 1293227583 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, true. < 1293227592 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does this thing have any monsters? < 1293227597 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1293227601 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is intensely boring. < 1293227607 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make a logic circuit < 1293227613 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can do that without being a smiley face. < 1293227619 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0M90Hq4u3nQ < 1293227622 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Font.getStringBounds was bugged in OpenJDK, and TextLayout.getBounds() returned Y=x in Sun's runtime, Y=-x in OpenJDK. And there was some unidentifiable problem in that doing AffineTransformOp.filter() didn't work, while drawImage() with the op did. I think all these have long since been fixed, though, this was two years ago. < 1293227624 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiek2erka, are you a developer on this? (are there any other ones?) < 1293227630 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiek2erka, and, how many people play it? < 1293227633 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, having right-clicking instantly erase anything is perhaps not such a good idea for vandalism prevention. < 1293227637 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: JEB PLAYED IT ONCE BEST GAME EVER < 1293227644 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yes, GreaseMonkey helps me a bit < 1293227647 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it's been on indiegames.com < 1293227650 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1293227651 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about 15-20 people played it so far < 1293227654 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1293227658 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe more < 1293227659 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The idiot of the channel helps me occasionally!" < 1293227681 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm putting that into the game's protocol < 1293227682 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forever < 1293227685 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, is the space just randomly filled? < 1293227691 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott yes < 1293227693 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :naturally < 1293227697 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...so you've built like two things. < 1293227720 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are more < 1293227726 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but our server admin destroyed the forum database < 1293227733 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...and that destroyed the world < 1293227736 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://64pixels.org/mods.html In what universe does this count as modding? < 1293227742 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, if you call GM the "idiot of the channel"... what do you call asiek2erka? < 1293227744 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OMG I CONFIGURED FIREFOX TODAY -- TOTALLY MODDED < 1293227748 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiek2erka, and why the nick change < 1293227749 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: 13. < 1293227754 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also stop demotivating me < 1293227756 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ah < 1293227759 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's ok, he said I could discriminate based on age!) < 1293227783 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, are you 14 or 15 now? I forgot < 1293227791 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i'm 14 in 2 weeks < 1293227792 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: 15. :p < 1293227796 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ah. < 1293227808 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, still 13 emotionally sometimes. < 1293227817 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, and you're so mature. < 1293227826 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, did I claim that? I don't think I did. < 1293227830 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think Vorpal is much nicer than you < 1293227838 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I'm flattered < 1293227842 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm an asshole? Wow, I never realised. < 1293227846 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, yes you are < 1293227851 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no comments on that < 1293227853 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you were the one who said it < 1293227855 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1293227892 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if asiek2erka actually knows what Inland Revenue is at all. < 1293227940 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if elliott has to be so !@#$ing picky < 1293227948 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1293227962 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I took the topmost flowers and nothing happened. < 1293227969 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott oh no < 1293227971 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rebuild the heap now < 1293227976 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also wait, you got the game to work? :P < 1293227983 0 :asiek2erka!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :asie[afk] < 1293227985 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Umm. No, I don't think I'm going to bother to figure out how to switch blocks./ < 1293227996 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"DON'T LEAVE CLOCKS RUNNING THEY WASTE BANDWIDTH" -- how on earth. < 1293228003 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it make a network connection for every tick or something? < 1293228019 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, local game or multiplayer? < 1293228023 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Multiplayer. < 1293228029 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1293228037 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, now to work on the pc speaker player coder < 1293228038 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :code* < 1293228048 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One wonders if it is not asie[afk] and GreaseMonkey merely not knowing what "bandwidth" means. < 1293228099 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, perhaps. < 1293228473 0 :cheater99!~cheater@g231048068.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293228542 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/* < 1293228542 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * Emit tone of frequency thz for given number of centisecs < 1293228542 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : */ < 1293228542 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :static void tone(unsigned int thz, unsigned int centisecs) < 1293228549 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, thz sounds so strange < 1293228559 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make me think of THz < 1293228601 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293228860 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1293229265 0 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1293229382 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293229595 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what, the program runs okay under gdb but malfunctions when ran alone < 1293229615 0 :cheater99!~cheater@g231048068.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293229638 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gdb quality. < 1293229667 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, XD < 1293229673 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, valgrind reports nothing < 1293229677 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: That has happened to me before, but I figured out the problem and corrected it. < 1293229679 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not really very "what". < 1293229683 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it still malfunctions under valgrind < 1293229695 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gdb does affect uninitialized memory contents and such. < 1293229709 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, but 1) valgrind reports nothing 2) it still malfunctions there < 1293229712 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though valgrind often catches that sort of stuff, admittedly. < 1293229713 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i probably shouldn't wander around minecraft with nothing to do. < 1293229725 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, my guess atm is that ptrace changes something about how the system call works < 1293229728 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, maybe EINTR < 1293229729 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or such < 1293229737 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are there little blue pixels in my painterly trees < 1293229742 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I /should/ handle, but who knows if that is buggy < 1293229775 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293230184 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you know I have played D&D game today? < 1293230414 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I found it < 1293230427 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mrf, what's the keys to rearrange tabs in xchat again? < 1293230430 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, the bug was actually that I typoed argv[1] as argv[0] < 1293230433 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I accidentally moved #esoteric to the left of freenode. < 1293230433 0 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4d0b7b6c.pool.mediaWays.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1293230439 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Just mv the program before executing it. < 1293230444 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that plus a number of coincidences < 1293230450 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, quite esoteric yeah < 1293230465 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay it seems to work < 1293230499 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the strings from http://svn.freebsd.org/viewvc/base/release/8.1.0/usr.sbin/spkrtest/spkrtest.sh?revision=210188&view=markup is now playable on a linux pc speaker! < 1293230541 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, sounds better on my thinkpad, where it is just a pure tone through the usual speakers < 1293230556 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Let's build a hi-fi USB PC speaker. < 1293230561 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, XD < 1293230565 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you can listen to it in all its glory on a laptop. < 1293230569 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A *real* one too -- as in the actual same mechanics. < 1293230576 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well my desktop has that < 1293230585 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: But is it hi-fi? < 1293230590 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Are all the components isolated? < 1293230591 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I doubt it < 1293230595 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, however this needs root to run. < 1293230603 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes me nervous while debugging < 1293230603 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LAME < 1293230608 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, blame linux < 1293230612 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I need to open /dev/console < 1293230617 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, and do some ioctls on it < 1293230627 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, this needs either running from a vt < 1293230630 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or as root under X < 1293230642 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, so it won't need root if you run it from a vt < 1293230659 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh; how weird. < 1293230685 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well, I guess it is because /dev/console depends on the owner of the current console. And when you are in X then X owns that vt < 1293230692 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Why on earth does that thing write to a choices file? < 1293230694 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, and X runs as root < 1293230699 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Couldn't it just assign to a variable? < 1293230704 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I have no idea < 1293230730 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, on freebsd it needs root too iirc, but only because the default permissions of /dev/speaker < 1293230785 0 :cheater99!~cheater@g231048068.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293230786 0 :Wamanuz3!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293230793 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hm... also I'm not sure if I can get the exact timing of freebsd. After all, on freebsd this happens in kernel < 1293230799 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and well, there is no buffer < 1293230812 0 :Wamanuz3!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293230814 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if I could transfer the IΞ type system to a term rewriting system. < 1293230865 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, btw I made the backend code very easy to replace for different systems. Should be just two functions to rewrite (plus maybe some POSIX-isms) to port it to windows. If anyone wants to < 1293230888 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(those functions: beep(freq, duration_in_ms), sleep(duration_in_ms) < 1293230891 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1293230906 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293230947 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Um, did you really call it sleep()? < 1293230949 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a C program? < 1293230956 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :POSIX hates you. < 1293230959 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, no < 1293230965 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I call it hw_beep and hw_sleep < 1293230971 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1293230972 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, and I don't call it "duration_in_ms" either < 1293230983 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Couldn't you just usleep(x*whatever_factor_i_forget) < 1293230999 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, usleep: no such thing in POSIX-2008. Besides it isn't portable C. < 1293231004 0 :hagb4rd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unbelievable.. just made a bet with a friend that the incredible machine of elliott is online, keepin the synapses of the rest well heated < 1293231005 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I use nanosleep < 1293231014 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, since that is what replaced usleep < 1293231016 0 :hagb4rd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :merry xmas folks ;) < 1293231020 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hagb4rd: wat./ < 1293231029 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm always online < 1293231030 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, usleep was made obsolete in POSIX 2001 and removed in 2008 < 1293231032 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hagb4rd, same! < 1293231035 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i live on the internet < 1293231042 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: no you're destroying all the synapses < 1293231048 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUN FACT i have no physical form < 1293231052 0 :hagb4rd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :np.. it's good to have you here < 1293231053 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Vorpal: no you're destroying all the synapses < 1293231053 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1293231066 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, maybe you misread: merry xmas folks ;) hagb4rd, same! < 1293231072 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually can't leave, watch: < 1293231072 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1293231072 0 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1293231074 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DAMN < 1293231080 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cycled < 1293231095 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I can't leave however (channel is sticky in bouncer, it will filter /part) < 1293231095 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is my punishment, to stay in here for eternity. Well, specifically, to stay in here for eternity with Vorpal. < 1293231138 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So is anybody going to MC today? :p < 1293231142 0 :hagb4rd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION giggles < 1293231147 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I was on for a bit, but pc speaker is funnier! < 1293231175 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I played D&D game today. Do you think I won? < 1293231190 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I should upload this code, but I don't know the license. Seeing as I pretty much had to reverse engineer beep(1) to figure out how to do it on linux (really, the docs for how you interface with kernel drivers on linux *sucks*) < 1293231224 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, and beep(1) is, as far as I can tell, GPL. The date is 1994 and the GPL is /not/ versioned. Nor is there "any future version" clause. This means in fact GPL1 < 1293231227 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: just GPL v1 it? < 1293231240 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all, GPL v1 is BSD-compatible < 1293231243 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, yeah but I have no clue what GPL v1 actually is. < 1293231245 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you stole BSD cdoe that's ok < 1293231251 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-1.0.html < 1293231253 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : GNU GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE < 1293231254 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Version 1, February 1989 < 1293231258 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Win32 api has a Beep(DWORD dwFreq, DWORD dwDuration) in kernel32.dll that spoke directly to PC speaker; it was dropped in Vista/WinXP 64-bit (because MessageBeep did the whole beep-via-sound-card thing, unlike kernel32 Beep); and in Windows 7 they brought Beep() back but made it pass through to a sound card. < 1293231261 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I clearly stated that this file was same as freebsd one with minimal changes < 1293231263 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: erm gpl v2 is from june 1991 < 1293231268 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1293231271 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it probably means gpl 2. < 1293231279 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I think it says if it says "GPL" with no version number, you can use any version you want to unless the copyright holder tells you otherwise. < 1293231294 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: for a program predating GPL v2, even? < 1293231298 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or if the license is included with the program, you would use that one. < 1293231298 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, basically, why should I write the parser code for that convoluted string when I just need to replace some types and calls and rewrite two functions < 1293231301 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Just say "This program is licensed under the same license as the beep tool from [wherever]." < 1293231309 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I do not believe in NIH) < 1293231318 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe in NIH! < 1293231341 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I think if it says "GPL" with no version specified, and the license text is not included anywhere with the program, you are permitted to use any version of the GPL. (I think I read somewhere that it works that way?) < 1293231343 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, oh. Noodly Interspace Horror? < 1293231351 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1293231358 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, isn't that a codename for flying spaghetti monster? < 1293231368 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: That's not true ... imagine before GPL version 2 came out. It wasn't called v1, it was just called the GPL. < 1293231376 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: So code licensed under "GPL" then is definitely version 1. < 1293231388 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah wait < 1293231392 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Then, OK. < 1293231392 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has a COPYING < 1293231395 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is GPL2 < 1293231403 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: OK then it is whatever version the COPYING file says. < 1293231404 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1293231410 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I don't consider reverse engineering to be virally, though. < 1293231422 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Copying non-trivial code, yes. < 1293231429 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Figuring out how it works and reimplementing it... naw. < 1293231439 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, 1193180 btw < 1293231445 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: 349783498 < 1293231451 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, won't work. < 1293231458 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it is not the right magic constant < 1293231463 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3459358 < 1293231468 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :again won't work < 1293231485 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, anything but the one I gave and frequency will be off < 1293231487 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Plz make shipping go faster. < 1293231493 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, of the tool? < 1293231496 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1293231497 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1293231504 0 :Wamanuz4!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293231505 0 :Wamanuz3!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1293231506 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what do you mean then < 1293231512 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OF MAH LAPTOP < 1293231528 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ah, I don't have any inside connections at apple < 1293231529 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't help < 1293231549 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know Steve Jobs' zombie brother. < 1293231556 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But he disowned him, so GUESS THAT WON'T HELP. < 1293231558 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1293231568 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if system is loaded it won't play correctly < 1293231572 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, it's been dispatched, so it's probably not Apple's problem any more :P < 1293231574 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: What? < 1293231575 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1293231578 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Loaded in that sense. < 1293231580 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, no buffer < 1293231583 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... < 1293231587 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, maybe I should try to give it real time priority? < 1293231596 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what function is used for that < 1293231609 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Just renice yourself. < 1293231609 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think. < 1293231633 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, right, I was thinking real time IO priority as well < 1293231637 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: If you try and get realtime priority when using the Brain Fuck Scheduler and you're not root, you get isochronous priority (which X runs at); it's sort of like just-below-realtime. < 1293231650 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If only it worked with non-root :P < 1293231661 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, right, but since almost everyone use X you will end up needing root /anyway/ < 1293231672 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides it won't /fail/ without real time priority. < 1293231713 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION decides wood-bricks aren't nice, recustomises painterly < 1293231731 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Have you seen that insane Painterly Christmas thing? < 1293231735 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stone becomes ice. :p < 1293231740 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sound effect dissonance! < 1293231748 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, yes.... < 1293231755 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, remember that fizzie took screenshots? < 1293231757 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you were on iirc < 1293231758 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might try it. You know, just for Christmas. < 1293231761 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yes, I believe I didn't look. < 1293231764 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1293231844 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish the Painterly chests/benches/furnaces/doors were less ornate. < 1293231846 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's weird. < 1293231888 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're a bit overdone. < 1293231895 0 :cheater99!~cheater@g231048068.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293231921 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also the ice doesn't tile very well at all. < 1293231949 0 :Wamanuz4!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293231970 0 :Wamanuz4!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293232004 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293232127 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1293232286 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hm now how to change IO priority < 1293232338 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno. < 1293232379 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah found it < 1293232381 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :love google < 1293232402 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :great, my man ioprio_set doesn't mention what headers < 1293232423 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should report that as a bug < 1293232428 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to where < 1293232490 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Incidentally, since you're already running as root and worried about exact scheduling, why not sched_setscheduler a SCHED_FIFO >0 priority for your process? That way you'd get it to hang the whole machine when it goes wrong. < 1293232505 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ... huh < 1293232525 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, are you /sure/? < 1293232541 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure about hanging or sure about that being a good idea? < 1293232557 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, brilliant. < 1293232562 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Glibc does not provide wrapper for these system calls; call them using syscall(2). < 1293232567 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is why there is no header... < 1293232569 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1293232593 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, on the other hand, there is another issue: where the heck do I get the macros mentioned in the man page < 1293232619 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I doubt it will help anyway < 1293232629 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: why do you need any macros? < 1293232630 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems block device IO specific < 1293232631 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just use syscall() < 1293232637 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Vorpal: Incidentally, since you're already running as root and worried about exact scheduling, why not sched_setscheduler a SCHED_FIFO >0 priority for your process? That way you'd get it to hang the whole machine when it goes wrong. < 1293232637 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt it < 1293232640 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since fizzie is infallible < 1293232651 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, because int ioprio_set(int which, int who, int ioprio); and for the last argument you use macros to construct it < 1293232653 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :says the man pae < 1293232655 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :page* < 1293232672 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it doesn't document the raw values for it < 1293232677 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: cpp(1) < 1293232680 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just that it is a bitmask and you use these macros... < 1293232683 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ... < 1293232688 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, anyway it won't help me < 1293232706 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :./include/linux/ioprio.h: IOPRIO_WHO_PROCESS = 1, < 1293232706 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :./include/linux/ioprio.h: IOPRIO_WHO_PGRP, < 1293232706 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :./include/linux/ioprio.h: IOPRIO_WHO_USER, < 1293232718 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Grepping *.[ch] inside the kernel.) < 1293232727 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott < 1293232735 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a clock emits 120 bytes a second per player < 1293232739 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what we mean by bandwidth < 1293232759 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :120p B/s, oh noes!! < 1293232760 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yes those I have no problem with < 1293232765 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1293232766 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Max 255 players, no? < 1293232768 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I meant IOPRIO_PRIO_VALUE < 1293232777 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, IOPRIO_PRIO_CLASS and IOPRIO_PRIO_DATA too < 1293232777 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So maximum 32 KiB/s. < 1293232779 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HOW HORRIBLE < 1293232793 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: ./include/linux/ioprio.h:#define IOPRIO_PRIO_VALUE(class, data) (((class) << IOPRIO_CLASS_SHIFT) | data) < 1293232795 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The same place? < 1293232817 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, right < 1293232830 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, anyway it won't really help me, since it seems to be block device specific < 1293232833 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Notably they're not in my /usr/include/linux, just in the kernel source tree's include/linux subdir. < 1293232838 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and all I do is ioctls on a char device < 1293232853 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, great... < 1293232870 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Setting the scheduler would help you in the "won't let other processes get in the way" sense, but I'm not really recommending that. < 1293232892 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just hang the system for the duration of the song. :p < 1293232911 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, actually I don't dare use SCHED_FIFO, SCHED_RR looks more interesting < 1293232941 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it's any easier on the system. < 1293232947 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well actually I won't, since I sleep, not busy wait < 1293232952 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It still will pre-empt everything with a lower static priority. < 1293232955 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Since a nonblocking infinite loop in a process scheduled under SCHED_FIFO or SCHED_RR will block all processes with lower priority forever, a software developer should always keep available on the console a shell scheduled under a higher static priority than the tested application. This will allow an emergency kill of tested real-time applications that do not block or terminate as expected." < 1293232960 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hrrm < 1293232969 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I lie my head on my pillow and busy-wait for eight hours. < 1293232991 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, good night then (assuming that is how it should be read) < 1293233001 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, also, you are going to bed early? < 1293233005 0 :cheater99!~cheater@g231048068.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293233053 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: elliott, well actually I won't, since I sleep, not busy wait < 1293233066 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I lie" as in every night. < 1293233068 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who needs sleep. < 1293233098 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293233103 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I'm probably going to bed semi-early in the interest of seeing /some/ sort of light on Christmas, though. :p < 1293233187 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, Finland uses the proper 24th too right? < 1293233262 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. Well, for the gift-giving part and so on; the 25th is still Christmas too. < 1293233269 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, to guarantee proper execution in the face of swap trashing I should probably memlock myself too ;P < 1293233304 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead of sleep-based wait-times (which of course ignore the time you spend thinking before you invoke sleep), you might run a fixed-interval timer with a resolution small enough that you can perform all your song-related actions at the times when that fires. (Disclaimer: I don't really know how the pc-speaker IO works, and whether that's a blocking sort of thing or not.) < 1293233381 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it is just ioctls < 1293233404 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, anyway, it seems to work well with just a -20 nice and normal scheduler < 1293233439 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and your suggestion would involve rather heavy rewriting, which I don't want < 1293233455 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The ucs2 and utf8 character sets do not support supplementary characters that lie outside the BMP." ~~MySQL < 1293233467 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. Well, you could pre-build a list of actions that you do on each timer-tick, it should (theoretically speaking, anyway) be a bit more accurate than "do a thing, then sleep", which will add the "do a thing" time to all sleep values. < 1293233473 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, including making the playstring thingy reentrant < 1293233514 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, actually it will be less like the original (freebsd speaker kernel driver) < 1293233518 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which also sleeps < 1293233525 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and works the same way < 1293233546 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, uh... what? ucs2: yeah okay, that makes sense. < 1293233547 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it depends on whether you want to match that or to conform to some sort of an ideal. < 1293233549 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but utf8? < 1293233562 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well I want to match < 1293233562 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: MYSQL QUALITY < 1293233617 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also TOS theme on pc speaker is awesome "l2b.f+.p16a.c+.p l4mne8a2mspg+e8c+f+8b2" < 1293233662 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The mlock/mlockall thing could be a thing to do, of course. < 1293233698 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone know how to insert UTF-8 chars with a mysql query? < 1293233706 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. what escape sequences or functions or whatever < 1293233734 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, seems like it's CHAR() < 1293233767 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I've got my PC speaker connected. I wonder how accurate the emulations are. < 1293233806 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dosbox has a 360-line PC speaker emulation code; it looks a bit simplistic compared to something like resid-fp. (Admittedly the PC speaker itself is rather simplistic compared to SID, too.) < 1293233976 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1293234085 0 :cheater99!~cheater@g231048068.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293234098 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah found docs < 1293234108 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, no need for GPLv2 any more < 1293234116 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :will probably do *BSD then < 1293234123 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: WTFPL < 1293234134 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, not BSD compatible iirc < 1293234149 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yes it is? < 1293234182 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: If you mean "but I based it on BSD code", you can still license your parts as WTFPL. Admittedly that's silly. But no, WTFPL is 100% BSD-compatible. < 1293234183 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293234201 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : DO WHAT THE FUCK YOU WANT TO PUBLIC LICENSE < 1293234202 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : TERMS AND CONDITIONS FOR COPYING, DISTRIBUTION AND MODIFICATION < 1293234202 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 0. You just DO WHAT THE FUCK YOU WANT TO. < 1293234205 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's hard to not be compatible with that. < 1293234207 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it is based on BSD yeah < 1293234209 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also FSF-certified Free!) < 1293234224 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, and the mix is absurd < 1293234227 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Right, then you can't remove the draconian BSD restrictions (such as requiring attribution). < 1293234234 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, since the bulk of the code is the BSD code < 1293234236 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Hey, plenty of projects include BSD-licensed code but aren't BSD themselves, and the like. :p < 1293234242 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly generally not in the same file. < 1293234252 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, the code that is not is basically main() + some linux specific functions < 1293234267 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still feel kinda dirty planning to copyleft things. < 1293234278 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, actually I split it in multiple files because I thought it would be larger than it turned out to be < 1293234412 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do a pulseaudio output option if you've run out of code to write. :p < 1293234436 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ... what? Can it drive the pc speaker? < 1293234442 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: --lag-more < 1293234445 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: or --high-latency < 1293234461 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, pc speaker or nothing < 1293234469 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I just mean an emulation. < 1293234494 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, for non-x86? < 1293234507 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, and for us "no speaker connected" folks. :p < 1293234508 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also, shouldn't I use jackd then instead < 1293234516 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well sucks to be you :P < 1293234527 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, /If/ I write anything it will be jackd < 1293234554 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it really matters, since you would just be producing a PCM audio signal; anything that can play that back would be just fine, timing-wise. < 1293234563 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not like the audio needs to be synchronized with anything. < 1293234587 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :libao obviously < 1293234595 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want to be a PC speaker purist, conduct a case study of a hundred PC speakers, then try to get as close to the same sound as possible. < 1293234597 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, actually I should procedurally generate a soundfont, load it into the sound card, and then play midi < 1293234603 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : fizzie, actually I should procedurally generate a soundfont, load it into the sound card, and then play midi < 1293234604 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MT-32. < 1293234610 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make a PC speaker soundfont for an MT-32. < 1293234614 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be GLORIOUS. < 1293234618 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I would, except I don't have one to test with < 1293234623 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I only have a sb live < 1293234647 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't ALSA have some sort of a PC speaker generic-PCM output driver? You could then run your emulated audio out via that. (It would probably sound quite horrible.) < 1293234662 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: You can have mine (note: no, it cost me £200). < 1293234667 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or was it £60. < 1293234668 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of the wto. < 1293234673 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*two. < 1293234683 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Awesome. < 1293234687 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not the least bit creepy how easy it is to find my dad and step-mom's names < 1293234689 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: How far could you recurse it, I wonder. < 1293234689 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not at all < 1293234695 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Indeed, Seth Gold. < 1293234699 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Easy-to-find names are a sign of creepiness. < 1293234703 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you have one!? < 1293234705 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, awesome < 1293234719 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yes. Also a theremin.; < 1293234721 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/;$// < 1293234731 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, is it a professional one < 1293234734 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Hooking up the MT-32 to an iMac didn't really work so well, though; I got it working, sort of. < 1293234741 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The theremin? Yes, it's a Moog. < 1293234743 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, or one of those with a knob for one of the things < 1293234745 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, wow < 1293234750 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not their high-end model (that's *lots of money*), but yes. < 1293234754 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Got it off eBay. < 1293234763 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's BLACK WOOD... which isn't really stylish, but there you go. < 1293234763 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, practising much? < 1293234771 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: No, the theremin is nearly impossible to play. < 1293234783 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I seen people play it well < 1293234783 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm willing to sell it :P < 1293234788 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it just require practise < 1293234792 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: You could pull out that ALSA's bit that converts the PCM signal into PC speaker programming, then use the emulation to turn that into a PCM signal, and then just iterate until it converges. (Well, except that it might well not converge or converge to something really boring; but at least a large number of time.) < 1293234795 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It needs a surgeon's hands. < 1293234804 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that's not really something you can practice at. < 1293234829 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well I have a Roland FP-4 piano. Decent (but not state of the art) < 1293234843 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I prefer to play that < 1293234848 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where'd you get the MT-32? < 1293234865 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: eBay too. < 1293234874 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what sort of connector do you use for it? < 1293234875 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: You can't buy them new, and they don't really degrade, so. :p < 1293234880 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Audio. Analogue audio. < 1293234885 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Oh, theremin? < 1293234888 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Audio. Analogue audio. < 1293234889 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But MT-32 too. < 1293234892 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, no the MT-32 < 1293234895 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1293234897 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has a MIDI input and an audio out. < 1293234903 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ah < 1293234903 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The fat jack-style things. < 1293234915 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Some things in life money can't buy -- for everything else there is eBay. (Paraphrased from that MasterCard ad.) < 1293234921 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, is that the same as the normal circular one? < 1293234929 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, or is it some other one < 1293234937 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, for midi I mean < 1293234941 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRS_connector < 1293234943 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, the MIDI one. < 1293234946 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno, I'll check in a minute. < 1293234948 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, yes < 1293234949 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have cables for it, FWIW. < 1293234951 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1293234954 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, and how did you get that to work with a mac < 1293234965 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Via adapter, I think. < 1293234970 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ah < 1293234971 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1293234983 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a gameport<->midi cable < 1293234988 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that I can use with this sound card < 1293234993 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would certainly guess the usual DIN-5 if it's "jack-style". < 1293235013 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I think he thought I asked about the audio < 1293235022 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, midi over usb sucks < 1293235038 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no opto-isolation < 1293235068 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also, as far as I know, less real time guarantees < 1293235117 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I think is funny is those hybrid "3.5mm analog stereo / optical S/PDIF" connectors. It's just like a regular stereo plug except there's basically a LED deep inside there. < 1293235160 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(What will they think of next!) < 1293235174 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, to save on connectors? < 1293235178 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or what < 1293235195 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, you only need one hole in the laptop or whatever. < 1293235195 0 :cheater99!~cheater@g231048068.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric