00:06:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Of course, my view of the Edinburgh fireworks was completely spoilt by a church in the way.
00:07:39 <Phantom_Hoover> I shall have to consult with the local branch of Al Qaeda. to have it removed.
00:08:22 <oerjan> al qaeda demolition services
00:08:39 <elliott> NODE TO MI5: Phantom_Hoover JUST TOLD ME HE REALLY INTENDS TO DO THIS
00:08:42 <elliott> PLEASE MONITOR THIS COMMUNICATION
00:08:51 <elliott> TERRORIST CHILD PORNOGRAPHY BOMB BOMB 9/11 AMERICAN BASTARDS CAPITALISM
00:09:25 <Phantom_Hoover> NOTE TO MI5: ELLIOTT IS A MENTAL PATIENT AND CANNOT BE TRUSTED
00:09:46 <oerjan> terrorist child pornography bombs are all the rage
00:20:44 <Gregor> NOTE TO MI5: HEY GUYS, I'M IN THE US
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00:25:46 <nooga> i just spoke with thomas from trontheim via phone
00:25:54 <nooga> and he's sooooo drunk
00:26:18 <nooga> shut up oerjan, i know
00:30:37 <fizzie> ▜▘ ▄ ▄ ▌▗ ▄ ▗▘▛▖▗ ▖▖▐ ▚ ▗▖▗▖▖▖▝ ▄ ▟▖ ▗▖▗ ▖▖ ▟▖▌ ▝ ▗▖
00:30:37 <fizzie> ▐ ▛▌▄▌▞▌▛▘ ▄▌ ▐ ▛ ▛▘▛ ▐ ▐ ▘▖▌ ▛ ▐ ▙▘▐ ▙ ▌▌▛ ▐ ▛▖▐ ▘▖
00:30:37 <fizzie> ▀▘ ▘▘▀▘▝▘▝▘ ▀▘ ▘▘ ▝▘▘ ▘▘ ▀ ▝▘▘ ▝ ▌ ▘ ▘ ▝ ▘ ▘▘▘▝ ▀ ▝
00:30:46 <elliott> int main(int ac, char **av)
00:30:49 <elliott> #define uint8_t a[printf("hello world\n")]
00:30:57 <elliott> that is the most beautiful thing ever
00:31:36 <fizzie> "I made a (Perl) script for this." It's readable even in the logs if you just manually swomp your browser into an UTF-8 frenzy.
00:32:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That C program?
00:32:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The line in stdint.h looks like "typedef unsigned char uint8_t;".
00:33:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Of course, depending on this is LOL NO, especially as .hs don't even have to be written in C technically.
00:33:19 <elliott> fizzie: I think some of my chars are non-monospaced.
00:33:33 <fizzie> Oh. Well, that's a shamey.
00:33:50 <fizzie> I guess the space might not be spaced like the Unicode block-drawing ones, but that's just weird.
00:34:06 <fizzie> I don't think there is a specific "block-drawing space".
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00:49:46 <Gregor> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qbG0zi9ZeE (don't watch this :P)
00:52:12 <Vorpal> <elliott> #define uint8_t a[printf("hello world\n")] <--- ....... wow
00:52:29 <elliott> Gregor: wow you look different
00:52:45 <Gregor> Ten years does a lot to a man :P
00:52:55 <Gregor> Esp. when they're the years of 14-24
00:52:56 <elliott> Gregor: yeah like make him not suck at making music OH SNAP
00:53:03 <Vorpal> elliott, that depends a LOT on what exactly stdint.h does on that given system
00:53:03 <elliott> Gregor: ok question why are you dressed all normally and shit
00:53:08 <elliott> Gregor: where is the pink man
00:53:11 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, exactly how it is implemented
00:53:12 <Gregor> elliott: Ten years does a lot to a man :P
00:53:21 <elliott> Gregor: I THOUGHT YOU WERE GREGOR FROM THE MOMENT YOU WERE BORN
00:53:51 <elliott> good thing i'm 15, i can totally preempt all my 24-year-old-self's objections to current me and reverse them, I'VE GOT IT ALL FIGURED OUT (<-- note: same words that probably went through Gregor's head at the time :P)
00:54:12 <Gregor> I have no objections to 14-yr-old me :P
00:54:31 <Gregor> He just happens to be a different person is all.
00:54:58 <elliott> Gregor: EXCUSE ME, he is NOT wearing ANY pink at ALL?
00:55:15 <Gregor> Like I said, different person.
00:55:30 <Gregor> YOU ARE THE WORST PERSON
00:55:35 <elliott> Gregor: Man, I just realised that talking to you instantly turns me into T-Rex.
00:55:43 <elliott> I think that is because you are T-Rex.
00:56:39 <Vorpal> <Gregor> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qbG0zi9ZeE (don't watch this :P) <-- quite nice
00:56:51 <Vorpal> though you developed a lot since then
00:57:33 <Vorpal> Gregor, where was that?
00:57:44 <Gregor> Vorpal: I have noooooooooo idea :P
00:57:49 <Vorpal> (and seems you already liked to compose music that takes some effort to listen to)
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00:59:20 <nooga> elliott: you were right
00:59:30 <nooga> i'm drunk as f*******\
00:59:32 <Vorpal> Gregor, how comes you didn't become a professional composer instead?
00:59:48 <Gregor> Vorpal: Because I'm a far better computer scientist.
01:00:05 <nooga> i think Gregor does not make the best music
01:00:06 <Vorpal> Gregor, then you must be really good at that!
01:00:29 <nooga> btw Pink Floyd did
01:00:39 <Vorpal> nooga, you don't like classical I guess?
01:01:00 <nooga> i like almost every kind of music
01:01:08 <Vorpal> hm, true I would not say Gregor's work is classical
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01:01:32 <Gregor> Apparently I time travel.
01:01:37 <nooga> brb, have to walk to the gas station to buy cigs
01:01:53 <Vorpal> Gregor, well, neo-classical in /style/
01:02:02 <Gregor> I prefer "neo-romantic"
01:02:06 <Vorpal> Gregor, I think defining it by when it was made is silly
01:02:52 <Vorpal> Gregor, why: because it breaks down for that is often called "baroque music" (which is really not a single style)
01:03:17 <Vorpal> also you get neo- a lot
01:03:43 <Vorpal> Gregor, anyway your music is not really romantic
01:04:17 <Vorpal> Gregor, too much dissonance for it. Maaaybe neo-"late romantic"
01:04:36 <nooga> oerjan: still here
01:06:24 <nooga> at greg, i play electric guitar alot
01:06:39 <nooga> and i can't play any. whole song
01:07:10 <nooga> i just improvise in major and minor penatatonic scales
01:07:37 <nooga> and septimal* eee i don't know if * this is good word in english
01:07:49 <nooga> but my gr is playing piano as well
01:08:19 <nooga> oerjan: ignore me, wait 30*60 s
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01:15:17 <Vorpal> oerjan, ... lunch or just some snaks?
01:15:23 <elliott> Vorpal: you know that oerjan operates on a 25-hour schedule
01:15:31 <elliott> (*according to Yudkowsky canon)
01:15:34 <oerjan> i haven't eaten a proper meal for nearly six hours
01:15:43 <elliott> well, not so much 25-hour schedule
01:15:49 <elliott> as oerjan's body is convinced that days last 25 hours
01:15:53 <oerjan> did have some snacks though
01:15:55 <elliott> and, accordingly, sleeps at the same time every 25-hour day
01:16:07 <oerjan> elliott: my doctor thinks melatonin may be a good idea
01:16:07 <elliott> i.e. one hour forwards in the blatantly incorrect 24-hour day system
01:16:30 <Vorpal> elliott, my body thinks it is 25.5 hours, but I keep ending up resetting it all the time
01:16:43 <Vorpal> well mostly all the time
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01:17:20 <elliott> oerjan: according to the highly reliable internets, btw, 1.5 mg is a good dose and lasts about an hour to kick in
01:17:23 <oerjan> Vorpal: well something is wrong with my resetting
01:17:35 <elliott> most sites selling it i've seen recommend rather higher dosages
01:17:39 <elliott> i rather suspect a doctor might too
01:17:42 <Vorpal> oerjan, mine is failing atm, due to holidays
01:17:43 <elliott> thanks pharma companies *tinfoil hat* :)
01:17:58 <Vorpal> elliott, melatonin, what does that do now again
01:18:48 <Vorpal> elliott, wasn't there something similar-named that had something to do with getting brown when being in the sun?
01:19:29 <elliott> But I've forgotten what it is :-P
01:20:44 <Vorpal> elliott, wow, check the various boxes below http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melatonin#External_links
01:20:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ah thanks
01:21:01 <elliott> Melatonin is in TiHKAL? X-D
01:21:18 <Vorpal> elliott, I meant the boxes below that
01:21:57 <elliott> Vorpal: TiHKAL is actually the second-last box, anyway.
01:22:10 <elliott> http://isomerdesign.com/PiHKAL/read.php?domain=tk&id=35 Anyone wanna try the recipe? :-P
01:22:15 <Vorpal> elliott, what is tihkal?
01:22:27 <oerjan> i wonder if i'll end up buying it from the internet, it's rather expensive says my doctor and a bit of googling seems to imply it isn't covered by the norwegian medical expenses cap
01:23:00 <elliott> Vorpal: tryptamines i have known and loved, sequel to PiHKAL. drug stuff.
01:23:23 <elliott> oerjan: he's full of shit -- it's incredibly cheap on the interwebs at least
01:23:26 <elliott> and that's from reputable sites
01:24:17 <oerjan> elliott: well i assume this is from a norwegian pharmacy, and moreover she may be referring to the fact it's not subsidized
01:24:33 <elliott> oerjan: right. i assume you guys have "herbal stores" and the likes there?
01:24:39 <elliott> sell tons of supplements and crap
01:24:52 <elliott> oerjan: you can either find it in those or the internet equivalents of those, for $nothing
01:25:07 <elliott> failing even /that/ (which I doubt) you could import it from http://melatonin.com/ i guess, but the shipping is going to be non-zero
01:26:09 <oerjan> elliott: yes, there are herbal stores, including some pharmacies (i noticed one the other day advertising homeopathic remedies)
01:26:43 <elliott> oerjan: yeah. there's no real point in getting it from a pharmacy if it's considered a health supplement, not a drug, which it is just about everywhere
01:26:47 <oerjan> otoh if melatonin is registered as a medical drug then it is unlikely to be legal for non-pharmacies to sell it here
01:27:00 <elliott> oerjan: I doubt it is -- Wikipedia says it is in the UK and it's _not_
01:27:09 <elliott> you can find it on tons of (reputable enough) herbal online stores
01:27:18 <oerjan> (only a few very common drugs are allowed to sell in ordinary shops)
01:27:34 <elliott> oerjan: well it's likely not considered a drug.
01:27:40 <oerjan> (and even that is a relatively new change)
01:27:47 <elliott> e.g. in america it's a "dietary supplement".
01:30:40 <elliott> oerjan: can you make oklopol come back??
01:30:47 <elliott> i want to tell him that Phantom_Hoover totally got his 2d physics working
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01:31:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well get the other parts working
01:31:17 <elliott> oerjan: yes do it. actually do you have his phone number. just call him and yell at him.
01:31:20 <elliott> act drunk (or get drunk first)
01:31:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: LOCALISED PHYSICS DISTORTIONS
01:31:38 <elliott> oerjan: say #ESOTERIC AND ABANDON AND
01:31:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Actually, that could slot nicely into my existing classes for masses.
01:32:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Make angular-mass a subclass of point-mass, add some extra stuff.
01:32:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Bear in mind that Amber doesn't have any classes, though :-P
01:32:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Why not add an angular-stuff field to point-mass, that can be NULL?
01:32:53 <elliott> (Substitute appropriate nothing-value for NULL.)
01:32:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Or how about making all point-masses angular-masses?
01:33:17 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, because I'd like to be able to make bullets point-masses.
01:33:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'm tempted to say that bullets should bypass physics altogether and just have their movement hardcoded.
01:33:47 <elliott> Since there could be thousands of them at any one time.
01:34:33 <nooga> i have cigs and beer
01:35:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Have you got polygon collision yet?
01:36:09 * oerjan does not have oklopol's phone number
01:36:23 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, use your mathematician powers to calculate it!
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01:36:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Do polygon collision :P
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01:37:43 <oerjan> googling suggests that melatonin requires a prescription in norway
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01:44:34 <Vorpal> oerjan, so ask the doctor then?
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01:46:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: if you ever want to see Asteroids II out you better code polygon collision >:)
01:46:22 <Vorpal> oerjan, yes I mean ask again if you need a prescription
01:46:35 <Vorpal> elliott, can't you do it?
01:46:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: tomorrow then!
01:46:52 <elliott> i already have to write a compiler for this
01:48:22 <oerjan> it seems like melatonin is falling a bit between the cracks in norway, simply by not being properly registered there. you can get it but it's more complicated and unsubsidized.
01:48:42 <elliott> oerjan: just import it from the us >:)
01:49:37 <Vorpal> elliott, see note about prescription. I doubt importing it is legal then
01:49:56 <elliott> oerjan: Hear that? The police are gonna get you for drug smuggling.
01:50:01 <elliott> "...found with whole GRAMS of melatonin..."
01:50:50 <Vorpal> elliott, why do you always exaggerate everything
01:51:16 <oerjan> i guess it's unregistered because it's natural and therefore unpatentable...
01:51:16 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm trying to demonstrate that importing melatonin being illegal is completely irrelevant as no non-ridiculous response could be taken.
01:51:43 <elliott> Also, they'd be incriminating oerjan for importing something harmless that's ALREADY INSIDE HIS BODY.
01:52:21 <Vorpal> elliott, by that logic DMT should be okay everywhere, since the human body naturally have traces of DMT
01:52:27 <oerjan> elliott: i suspect if i got a prescription first i could legally import it
01:52:34 <elliott> Vorpal: I see no issue with that statement
01:52:37 <oerjan> well that would be sane, at least
01:53:11 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed. But that is not the case
01:53:17 <elliott> Admittedly, importing poop would be kind of weird :P
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01:53:28 <elliott> Vorpal: No, but you can't get high off melatonin :P
01:55:27 <Vorpal> elliott, well why is it in that tihkal then?
01:55:52 <elliott> Vorpal: Who knows? The entry just talks about it being unclear whether it's effective for sleep or not, going by WP's link.
01:56:05 <elliott> It's not solely a book to get high off, unless I'm sorely mistaken :P
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01:57:08 <elliott> I mean, melatonin is a tryptamine with interesting properties, thus explaining its presence.
01:57:48 <coppro> but does it involve lipase amylase and trypsin?
01:57:58 <coppro> they gonna help with my digestion
01:59:43 <quintopia> what about insulin, glucagon, coming from the islets of langerhans?
02:00:42 <coppro> elliott: give me root ssh
02:00:57 <elliott> i think the mmap might be failing or something
02:10:20 <augur> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/etw3g/problem_boole_comparisons_in_php/c1awit4
02:10:53 <augur> it depends on what the other things are!
02:11:09 <elliott> augur: I have a better table
02:11:12 <elliott> augur: I will express it in html
02:11:37 <augur> yes i know im just being a dick
02:11:58 <elliott> augur: <table><tr><th>x</th><th>y</th></tr><tr><th>x</th><td>True</td><td>False</td></tr><tr><th>y</th><td>False</td><td>True</td></tr></table>
02:12:03 <augur> the important point tho is the conversation with kamatsu
02:12:13 <elliott> augur: tada, a perfect description of a (properly-implemented) equality function in Haskell!
02:12:17 <elliott> assuming all Eq classes are done right that is
02:12:31 <elliott> but only if x is indistinguishable from y /outside/ the module
02:12:36 <elliott> so it's x == x from outside
02:13:00 <augur> the convo with kamatsu is the important bit
02:13:26 <elliott> augur: meh, mere misunderstanding :P
02:13:43 <augur> he originally said it compared forall a. (Eq a) => a
02:13:46 <augur> which is also false
02:14:07 <augur> the point is that (==) only compares two things of the same type
02:14:25 <augur> and he said it could compare bool to string if you wanted
02:14:36 <augur> which is false, without some major magic
02:15:04 <augur> but god damn if that little ascii table didnt get me some karma
02:17:16 <augur> one thing i fucking love about haskell is (G)ADTs
02:17:28 <augur> i love that i can define new atomic values out of nothing
02:17:39 <augur> and theres no possibility of misusing them as some other type
02:18:16 <augur> enums are nice and all, but the fact that they're usually just another name for an int is a problem
02:18:54 <augur> i mean, obviously you could do atomic values as ints and shit, but the type system enforces the opacity
02:18:56 <coppro> and OO languages typically add too much baggage to ADTs
02:19:25 <augur> i mean, i like OO for some reasons, but GADTs and type classes are sexy
02:20:14 <augur> OO style for certain things is quite appealing.
02:20:35 <augur> list functions, for instance
02:21:29 <augur> i much prefer xs { |x| x.odd? }.map { |x| x ** 2 } over map (**2) (filter odd xs)
02:21:43 <augur> er.. xs.filter { ...
02:22:10 <augur> tho i'd prefer if i could do xs.filter(odd?).map(**2)
02:22:15 <elliott> augur: that's just concatenative :)
02:22:38 <augur> elliott: no, i know, i just like the style of having Collection Method PRoc
02:22:44 <augur> rather than Method Proc Collection
02:22:58 <elliott> augur: true. currying gets ugly though.
02:23:07 <elliott> admittedly you can say .filter(odd?) in a platonically perfect language
02:23:08 <augur> i think in haskell theres a reverse apply isnt there?
02:23:12 <augur> like $ but backwards?
02:23:19 <elliott> but yeah, i think there is
02:23:25 <augur> yeah yeah but i think theres a built in flip ($)
02:23:44 <augur> and lets say its left associative
02:23:49 <augur> obviously: xs $$ filter odd $$ map (**2)
02:24:05 <augur> so haskell doesnt make this style impossible
02:24:18 <augur> which is all the more reason to fuckin love haskell
02:24:20 <elliott> augur: nothing built in, maybe in a module
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02:24:25 <elliott> augur: haskell's type system is bad :)
02:24:29 <augur> elliott: whatever. its easily definable, anyway
02:25:10 <coppro> elliott: you can probably do .filter(odd?).map(**2) in APL, except it would be 5 characters long
02:25:34 <coppro> also, i think Perl 6 actually does allow .filter(odd?).map({* ** 2})
02:25:36 <elliott> coppro: i can probably do that in J
02:25:37 <augur> coppro: probably 6
02:25:42 <elliott> coppro: don't need that {} do you?
02:25:43 <coppro> if it doesn't, it certainly ought to
02:25:47 <augur> elliott: restriction in what fashion?
02:25:59 <coppro> elliott: I'm not up-to-date in Perl 6
02:26:00 <elliott> (a middle-ground is probably nicest for actual programming)
02:26:03 <elliott> augur: then i can't explain sry
02:26:05 <augur> its dependently typed tho isnt it?
02:26:19 <elliott> there's more than that though
02:26:30 <augur> any type system that isnt itself a turing complete programming language is too restricted to you, isnt it?
02:26:39 <elliott> augur: um Coq's type system is sub-TC
02:26:51 <augur> but i thought dependent types are TC
02:26:54 <elliott> augur: yes, otherwise _|_ would prove any proposition
02:27:02 <augur> or is it only _some_ DT systems
02:27:18 <elliott> augur: well with dependent types your type system basically becomes a special part of your value system
02:27:24 <elliott> so if you use your TC language to do it, yes, it becomes TC
02:27:31 <elliott> and you have nonterminating _types_, ho ho, good luck wit hthat
02:27:41 <elliott> Agda is also sub-TC unless you tell it not to be, when it becoems inconsistent
02:27:46 <augur> ive never gotten into the traditional theorem provers
02:27:59 <elliott> coq is really nice. you'd like it
02:28:20 <augur> i say it like caulk, so
02:28:35 <augur> or like the kidlings on the chans say cock: cawk
02:29:47 <elliott> coppro: well map **2 is just foo^2
02:30:14 <augur> lets see, surely we can figure this apl shit out
02:30:22 <elliott> dunno how to filter odd though :)
02:30:46 <augur> no, but thats not the point
02:31:28 <elliott> but that's not the best way to filter by odd.
02:31:49 <elliott> oh wait foo^2 isn't actually map(^2)
02:31:50 <augur> so i get that 2|n is two divides n
02:31:55 <augur> but that should be boolean
02:32:08 <elliott> 0< is exactly what you'd expect
02:32:21 <augur> that makes sense then
02:32:33 <elliott> it's actually called "residue" :)
02:32:35 <augur> does j have lambdas without lambda operators?
02:32:37 <Vorpal> elliott, what is the difference between J and line noise?
02:32:41 <elliott> augur: it has no lambda operator. so yes.
02:32:54 <elliott> Vorpal: Line noise is readable
02:33:11 <Vorpal> elliott, wasn't there some language that looked like line noise and you said was crazy
02:33:15 <augur> elliott: so does 2|n roughly equal \n -> 2 | n in some other language?
02:33:21 <coppro> elliott: is it actually foo^2, or do you need to do some fancy foo<<^2?
02:33:38 <elliott> coppro: we want map ^2 right?
02:33:41 <elliott> coppro: then it's foo^2 in j.
02:33:42 <augur> right but is it a lambda or is it a value?
02:33:56 <elliott> coppro: who cares, we're doing j now
02:33:59 <coppro> it has some syntax for turning a scalar operation into a vector one
02:34:04 <Vorpal> elliott, sure about the spelling? google is unhelpful
02:34:05 <elliott> augur: um is "n mod 2" a lambda? :)
02:34:15 <augur> cause in Functional JS you can do shit like xs.map("x*2") and itll convert "x*2" into the lambda \x -> x*2
02:34:15 <coppro> elliott: will find example
02:34:24 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.google.co.uk/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=ursala+language&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&redir_esc=&ei=i5IeTeb1EpO6hAf074i3Dg#hl=en&client=safari&pwst=1&rls=en&sa=X&ei=i5IeTaaIGIyIhQfnvIS3Dg&ved=0CBUQvgUoAA&q=ursala+language&nfpr=1&fp=733b49addeb556
02:34:32 <augur> because x is a variable that isnt bound
02:34:33 <elliott> augur: you have to realise that in J there are no "lambdas"
02:34:43 <elliott> augur: if you give an "incomplete" expression, it just becomes a box
02:34:45 <augur> ok so there are no such things at all
02:34:48 <elliott> and you can apply boxes to things
02:34:52 <elliott> augur: there are, it just usurps them all :)
02:34:55 <augur> i dontknow shit about j, really
02:34:58 <elliott> e.g., wait, lemme download j to demonstrate
02:35:15 <Vorpal> elliott, where in there? "Ursula Bellugi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" first hit, Lots of non-programming hits
02:35:17 <elliott> oh oh OH THERE IS A J BETA OUT OMG
02:35:26 <elliott> Vorpal: tell it you don't mean urusula.
02:35:50 <augur> aint nothin but a j thang
02:35:59 <elliott> [[701 J Engine (JE - J Language implementation) changes are incremental and compatible.
02:35:59 <elliott> 701 J Front End (JFE) changes are revolutionary!
02:35:59 <elliott> Previously the primary JFE was based on Jsoftware's proprietary WD (window driver). WD was built on Windows API and was refined and polished over more than 15 years. And for 10 years Unix users had a WD Java port.
02:36:00 <elliott> 701 abandons WD. There is risk as WD was a mature product central in so many ways to J. The replacements are as far from polished as only software version 1 can be.
02:36:02 <elliott> With your patience and contributions we believe the rough will soon be polished and WD will be just a fond memory. One significant difference is that WD was a closed and proprietary system implemented in C++ and Java. The new JFE's are open and are implemented in J and based on open products and industry standards.
02:36:08 <elliott> this beta is my new girlfriend
02:36:11 <augur> elliott: why does ursala look like line noise?
02:36:16 <augur> elliott? girlfriend? hahaha
02:36:19 <elliott> augur: ursala is terrible, do not discuss it
02:36:24 <elliott> also stop laughing :| J LOVES ME
02:36:31 <elliott> The first is JHS (J HTTP Server) where a browser is the front end. The browser is a powerful front end that has considerable advantages. Almost by definition it is familiar to all users and is the most completely cross platform. With html, css, ajax, and javascript it is a rich environment. It would be a mistake to continue to ignore the focus of resources and users on the browser as the window on the world. J701 lets your browser be
02:36:31 <elliott> your window on J, as well as on everything else.
02:36:31 <elliott> The second is JGTK which is based on the GTK+ portable library for creating graphical user interfaces. This is on the bleeding edge of what is possible and will allow the ultimate in power user tools and applications.
02:36:36 <augur> elliott: no, it was the "girl" part
02:36:49 <elliott> augur: i'm not gay. sorry. :p
02:37:06 <augur> i know you're not. if you were it wouldnt be fun to joke about
02:37:32 <augur> oh jesus you're right about ursala
02:37:39 <augur> choices = ^(iota@r,~&l); leql@a^& ~&al?\&! ~&arh2fabt2RDfalrtPXPRT
02:37:48 <elliott> augur: it's crazily-designed, too
02:37:56 <Vorpal> augur, to me, it only looks slightly more noisy than J code :P
02:38:10 <elliott> augur: i know you're not. if you were it wouldnt be fun to joke about
02:38:10 <augur> thats why elliott hates it
02:38:31 <elliott> Vorpal: no he sobered up in 30 minutes
02:38:40 <Vorpal> elliott, ... body doesn't work like that
02:38:41 <augur> but parody my own sexuality so
02:39:02 <elliott> i think nooga's gf just told him she's a lesbian
02:39:13 <augur> elliott: wouldnt he be masturbating then?
02:39:25 <elliott> this channel, SO MATURE, you guys!
02:39:46 <nooga> she told me that she's more kinki tht i thought she is
02:39:49 <Vorpal> elliott, yes when augur, you, and some 90% of the other people are here :P
02:39:56 <nooga> elliott is SO MATURE
02:40:14 <elliott> GUYS WE ARE TALKING ABOUT *MY* GIRLFRIEND, THAT IS, J
02:40:15 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, me, olsner, fizzie. And perhaps a handful of other. Then it is mature :P
02:40:25 <elliott> olsner: hear that, Vorpal just called you mature
02:40:38 <Vorpal> elliott, compared to you :P
02:40:48 <elliott> Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air:~ ehird$ /Applications/j701/bin/jgtk.command ; exit;
02:40:49 <elliott> |[-7] /Applications/j701/addons/gui/gtk/gtk.ijs
02:40:51 <coppro> elliott: In Perl 6, @foo[bar] is syntactic sugar for @foo.[bar]
02:41:00 <elliott> coppro: you're syntactic sugar lol
02:41:07 <nooga> Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air ... what a hostname
02:41:12 <elliott> nooga: that's the default hostname :D
02:41:13 <Vorpal> elliott, that error is... weird?
02:41:26 <augur> elliott: ive started coding in C#
02:41:27 <Vorpal> elliott, it has way too much whitespace for J
02:41:31 <elliott> nooga: i haven't figured out what to change it to yet, i kinda like Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air, it's just so silly
02:41:37 <elliott> my prompts have never been longer
02:41:41 <nooga> elliott: i know :D , my mac was Marcin gasperowicz's MacBook pro
02:41:57 <elliott> i am so glad i don't have a really long name
02:41:59 <Vorpal> elliott, I hate when prompts wrap though
02:42:08 <elliott> John-Jacob-Jingleheimer-Schmidts-MacBook-Air
02:42:09 <Vorpal> elliott, and that is a risk for you
02:42:23 <augur> elliott: better than Darryl-McAdamss-MacBook-Pro
02:42:39 <Vorpal> augur, is that a real example
02:42:47 <Vorpal> wtf my ? key is glitchy
02:42:49 <augur> well no, but it would be if it were stupid enough to use my full name
02:42:52 <elliott> augur: what happens if you're japanese, do you get a utf-8 hostname
02:42:58 <elliott> or does it replace it all with dashes
02:43:09 <Vorpal> elliott, it could punycode it?
02:43:17 <augur> dareru-makkuadamuzu-no-makkubukku-purou
02:43:31 <elliott> oh yeah that error, so important
02:43:41 <Vorpal> elliott, I SUGGEST punycode!
02:43:43 <augur> actually i am that stupid
02:43:47 <augur> darryl-mcadamss-macbook-pro:~ darryl$
02:43:54 <augur> i should fix this shit
02:44:06 <elliott> augur: set your hostname to "fag"
02:44:35 <Vorpal> I use mythical creatures. phoenix, dragon, pegasus and so on.
02:44:35 <elliott> ok i think j is almost working
02:44:42 <Vorpal> (also tux is grandfathered in)
02:44:51 <augur> tux is pretty mythical
02:45:10 <augur> doesnt make him not mythical
02:45:24 <augur> it just makes him ... THE STUFF OF LEGENDS
02:45:35 <Vorpal> well you couldn't find tux on Middle earth :P
02:45:54 <augur> elliott: speaking of restrictive type systems, C#'s piss-poor type system pisses me off
02:46:04 <augur> i tried to define fold just for fun
02:46:06 <Vorpal> but you could find dragons, and while no phoenix or pegasus are recorded by Tolkin afaik they would fit right in,
02:46:33 <elliott> let's all get drunk and write PPC assembly
02:46:38 <Vorpal> augur, couldn't you do it with a generic class?
02:46:42 <elliott> GIVE ME ONE GOOD REASON WHY NOT
02:46:44 <augur> Vorpal: how do you mean
02:46:52 <augur> elliott: are you allowed to get drunk yet
02:46:56 <augur> have you ever BEEN drunk?
02:46:57 <Vorpal> augur, something like... Folder<T> or such?
02:47:05 <elliott> augur: no, but i'm also not allowed to INFRINGE COPYRIGHT
02:47:08 <Vorpal> augur, having one method. fold
02:47:18 <Vorpal> augur, yes this is insane. But it might just work.
02:47:19 <elliott> Vorpal: ITT: c# isn't java
02:47:31 <elliott> augur: can you tell me why steve jobs put fn next to ctrl on the macbook keyboards
02:47:31 <augur> Vorpal: ehh.. maybe. i didnt use a generic class
02:47:34 <elliott> augur: it is the stupidest thing ever
02:47:38 <Vorpal> elliott, hm? C# has generic classes.
02:47:42 <augur> but it was because of a circular type of some sort
02:47:43 <coppro> "It is an error to use this operator outside of a lol context; in other words it must be bound into a ** (slice) parameter rather than a * (slurpy) parameter." goddammit perl 6
02:47:49 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't see why it *wouldn't* work
02:48:08 <coppro> it is impossible to understand perl 6 without understanding it first
02:48:12 <Vorpal> coppro, sure that isn't some INTERCAL-lolcode hybrid?
02:48:44 <elliott> Building, Bundling, and Integrating GTK+ on MacOSX is now consolidated at http://gtk-osx.sourceforge.net, where you'll find up-to-date downloads, information and support. There is a forum, a mailing list, and a tracker there. The development of the quartz backend to GTK+ remains in the GTK+ project.
02:48:47 <elliott> http://gtk-osx.sourceforge.net/ jesus christ
02:48:50 <elliott> it's like from fucking 2003
02:48:55 <elliott> they're using i think panther's wallpaper
02:49:13 <augur> Vorpal: the genericness wasnt at issue. i just defined it like.. public List<Object> FoldR { ... }
02:49:22 <augur> er, not List<Object>
02:49:26 <Vorpal> augur, so what is the problem then?
02:49:34 <augur> the problem was it didnt work! :P
02:49:39 <augur> lemme do it again for posterity
02:49:39 <Vorpal> augur, also is that a property!?
02:50:07 <augur> no its a stupid unthought-about method on a dummy object
02:50:11 <Vorpal> augur,: public List<T> FoldR(INSERT SOME SORT OF DELEGATE HERE, List<T> list) { ... }
02:50:24 <Vorpal> the delegate should take T somewhere
02:50:35 <augur> maybe. i just tried to implement it naively
02:50:37 <Vorpal> augur, delegate. Like function pointers for C#
02:50:49 <elliott> Vorpal: http://gtk-osx.sourceforge.net/ guess when this side was created
02:50:49 <augur> anyway it shouldve worked if the type system could handle it
02:51:00 <augur> i dont like the lack of polymorphism in the types tho.
02:51:03 <augur> you cant just do like
02:51:25 <elliott> based on its form + screenshots
02:52:05 <Vorpal> elliott, well it says 10.5 in the text. So fairly new. Screenshots don't help me, except that it has that 3D dock so fairly recent. Rest of design is like 8 year older
02:52:11 <augur> public X FoldR(..., Z zero, List<X> xs) { ... }
02:52:16 <augur> as far as i know, anyway
02:52:18 <elliott> Vorpal: the site was created sometime 2009 to 2010.
02:52:21 <augur> maybe i should try that
02:52:23 <elliott> Vorpal: and it was /designed/ like that. in 2009 to 2010.
02:52:25 <Vorpal> augur, the ... would be the delegate
02:52:38 <elliott> Vorpal: did I mention that the site it replaced was pretty sleek?
02:52:49 <Vorpal> augur, shouldn't Z and X be the same?
02:53:07 <coppro> perl 6 does not have a sepc
02:53:09 <augur> i suppose it depends on how your folding function works
02:53:12 <coppro> I don't care what they say
02:53:17 <augur> theres no reason it couldnt be a -> b -> b
02:53:24 <elliott> coppro: it has a spec it has no formal spec
02:53:24 <coppro> I could not write an implementation of Perl 6 from this "spec"
02:53:37 <Vorpal> augur, but then FoldR should return Z not X
02:53:49 <augur> true. im not thinking, obviously
02:54:02 <augur> also, these backwards type signatures are weird
02:54:08 <augur> then theres these JS ones
02:54:17 <Vorpal> augur, you mean return type first?
02:54:25 <augur> function (x : X, y : Y) : Z
02:54:48 <Vorpal> augur, is that... name : type ?
02:54:54 <augur> i'd much prefer like
02:55:00 <Vorpal> augur, what the fracking helll
02:55:18 <augur> well it makes sense, since : is the mathlogic-notation for types
02:55:31 <augur> and you see that kind of shit in like Martin-Lof type theory
02:55:54 <augur> but its just so cluttersome
02:55:54 <elliott> Vorpal: not really. only the UI is 32-bit.
02:55:59 <elliott> it uses jni to talk to the engine
02:56:04 <Vorpal> augur, I don't know Martin-Löf type theory (isn't that the proper name?)
02:56:14 <augur> type foo(X,Y) : Z ; function foo(x,y) { ... }
02:56:20 <elliott> augur: coq is close to martin-lof type theory.
02:56:25 <augur> yeah, Martin-Lof is the formal logic behind dependent types
02:56:28 <elliott> augur: type foo(X,Y) : Z ; function foo(x,y) { ... }
02:56:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm pretty sure that is an ö not an o
02:56:34 <elliott> that wouldn't work for dependent stuff really :)
02:56:37 <elliott> Vorpal: NOBODY FUCKING CARES
02:56:39 <augur> elliott: no its not supposed to
02:56:46 <Vorpal> elliott, at least write it as oe then
02:56:54 <augur> elliott: im just trying to show how you might design the JS2 type signatures to factor out the inlined :'s
02:57:00 <augur> to make it more haskellish
02:57:17 <Vorpal> elliott, I could start using either
02:57:20 <elliott> so the odd ones we want are the 1s here
02:57:23 <augur> function foo(x,y) { ... }
02:57:48 <Vorpal> Elliot, I could write it this way even.
02:59:15 <elliott> so we want to select the 1s here from foo
02:59:33 <elliott> but that would be cheating
02:59:35 <elliott> since we'd ditch all zeroes
03:03:45 <elliott> so we just need to ditch zeroes
03:11:05 <coppro> what are we trying to do here
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03:13:11 <elliott> coppro: um .filter(odd?).map(**2)
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03:33:05 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulliver's_Travels_(2010_film) WHYYYY
03:33:09 <elliott> augur: why does this exist
03:33:20 <augur> because jackblack.
03:53:35 <nooga> i just had a great conversation with my brother (language expert)
03:54:09 <nooga> he told me that no matter who you are
03:54:28 <nooga> you will adapt to the culture of a country you live in
03:54:38 <augur> unless you're a racist asshole
03:54:43 <augur> or a conquering brit
03:54:49 <augur> then you make them adopt to you
03:54:51 <nooga> but there is this think
03:55:29 <nooga> i'm a muthafucking pole
03:56:03 <nooga> and even if i speak perfect norsk and know norwegian culture in depth
03:56:39 <nooga> i can't forget 23 years (early years) in poland
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03:57:16 <nooga> and theese years will make me a different person from an average norwegian
03:57:40 <augur> nooga: i think you dont understand the meaning of "adapt"
03:57:51 <elliott> adapt means kill half of them rape the rest
03:57:57 <elliott> i learned this from columbus
03:58:15 <nooga> i could adapt urdu culture
03:58:33 <nooga> but that does not make me urdu
03:59:21 <nooga> one could just deny hid origin and become someone else
04:02:32 <nooga> even if i lived for 40 years in USA, and define myself as an american... i would stil bear this small part of
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04:04:04 <nooga> 23 years of Polish upbringing in myself
04:05:17 <nooga> besides of any patriotism
04:05:30 <nooga> which i don't have tbh
04:05:55 <nooga> ffffffffffffff....
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04:23:07 <elliott> help me make a golfing language
04:26:43 <elliott> augur: surely you know golfscript
04:27:08 <elliott> augur: http://golfscript.com/
04:27:52 <elliott> augur: um you know what code golf is right
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04:38:04 <elliott> Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air:~ ehird$ zcat <z.Z
04:38:04 <elliott> By submitting a solution to this challenge, I acknowledge that I am a bad person for trying to climb up the rankings in this way.Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air:~ ehird$
04:38:04 <elliott> Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air:~ ehird$ zcat <<<"$(cat z.Z)"
04:38:05 <elliott> By submitting a solution to this challenge, I acknowledge that I am a bad person for trying to climb up the rankings in this way.(Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air:~ ehird$
04:38:07 <elliott> HOW CAN THOSE RESULTS DIFFER
04:38:25 <elliott> aha! <<< appends a newline
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05:00:38 <TLUL> !^@(@(*~(&$$*@`^%@*%#(&(*#)@&)*($^*!^~^($@~^(
05:01:01 <TLUL> ((*@@#^)!%~)#@^*(~#%@#@~)&^(*$&^$~!@@((^(`%!&
05:01:22 <TLUL> &``(%@)%~^*!~#^HAPPY NEW YEARS(~#!(!#)#%@)`*^
05:01:45 <TLUL> %#!()!%*!*#~@!@$#`!)%`!@@!#`)#@%$&`%%^~%^@)$@
05:02:08 <TLUL> &^%`!&%^#$@)@`*$@)*@(~%`%!*&!@@@!*$~&&&)$@@%(
05:02:31 <TLUL> new years where I am
05:03:08 <TLUL> Yeah, that script didn't really work.
05:03:42 <TLUL> I coded it with 2 minutes to spare though, so it's not really a high quality piece of JS, is it?
05:03:48 <Sgeo> And what I thought was from TDWTF is actually from Planet Factor
05:03:49 <shutup> Sgeo: Shut up about Factor!
05:04:11 <TLUL> Lol, it could definitely go on TDWFT
05:04:23 <TLUL> I used Chrome's dev tools to inject a script into webchat
05:06:31 <Sgeo> http://www.rfc1149.net/blog/2011/01/01/send-yourself-a-greetings-email-from-me/
05:07:16 <Sgeo> elliott, tbh, I saw "Blog post with code" in Google Reader, and made an assumption
05:07:51 <Sgeo> Although it started out that way, as almost a personal discussion about automated emails, as though Alex was about to present something related to that
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05:13:24 <elliott> augur: you should /nick augurer
05:16:31 <Sgeo> Sale on AW citizenship renewal
05:16:31 <shutup> Sgeo: Shut up about Active Worlds!
05:16:46 <elliott> man i was about to +1 shutup
05:16:50 <elliott> it was my genius all along
05:16:50 <Sgeo> shutup: Shut up about shutting up!
05:16:55 <elliott> i didn't look at the name :D
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05:48:04 <Sgeo> elliott, there is now a world in Active Worlds named after me
05:48:04 <shutup> Sgeo: Shut up about Active Worlds!
05:48:54 <elliott> Sgeo: Is it called SgeoNeverFuckingShutsUp?
05:50:26 <elliott> oh activeworlds is actually one word?
05:50:43 <Sgeo> elliott, I've seen it both ways
05:50:50 <Sgeo> I think Active Worlds is more correct
05:50:50 <shutup> Sgeo: Shut up about Active Worlds!
05:50:59 <elliott> Sgeo: their site says ActiveWorlds
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05:52:21 <shutup> Sgeo: Shut up about Active Worlds!
05:52:26 <shutup> Sgeo: Shut up about Active Worlds!
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05:54:02 <Sgeo> elliott, I'm Sacred Geometry!
05:54:12 <augur_> ping me when my alt dies so i can de_
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06:22:43 <variable> elliott, http://lh3.ggpht.com/_hVOW2U7K4-M/SgJBNJ2ciJI/AAAAAAABAVQ/Mj9c7zh7YWY/s640/x1.jpg
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07:31:50 <darkbulb> is anyone else coherent at this late hour
07:33:01 <Sgeo> I'm never coherent, but I'm not especially incoherent right now
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07:37:05 <Sgeo> I think I scare people :(
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10:50:58 <hagb4rd> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hsvbuwn_j_8&fmt=18
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13:48:25 <hagb4rd> it`s really quiet in here today.. even elliott is off *g
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16:28:49 <oerjan> OF COURSE NOT. YOU MERELY HAVE TO WEAR THESE LITTLE BADGES...
16:31:27 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
16:32:05 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, shutup has been silenced once more in oerjan's purge!
16:32:19 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: besides, i'd love to see if it were more flexible, they just confuse the issue is control. so stop sending me down this particular error message!
16:32:36 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: from: rl date: fri, 31 jul 1992 05:18:17 edt subject: re: bent axel's what to do
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17:48:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Let it now be known that Hoover Heavy Industries is now at war with the brutal substratist autocracy of oerjan.
17:49:51 <oerjan> IT SEEMS THE BADGES HAVE BEEN INSUFFICIENT, THEN
17:50:04 <oerjan> WE SHALL HAVE TO IMPLEMENT A MORE _FINAL_ SOLUTION
17:50:59 <elliott> Coding up shutup_oerjan.rb as we speak
17:51:10 <elliott> WHILE YOU STILL HAVE YOUR LIFE
17:52:41 <hagb4rd> what the heck are you talking about
17:53:05 <hagb4rd> i love it, but dont understand anything :)
17:53:19 * oerjan invades neutral hagb4rd just for the lulz
17:53:37 <oerjan> ALSO, TO PILLAGE HIS RICE FIELDS
17:54:32 <hagb4rd> this channel is unique, indeed
17:54:38 * oerjan realizes invading in the winter may have been a bad move
17:56:32 * oerjan fires a north korean bought missile filled with rice pudding at Phantom_Hoover
17:56:41 <oerjan> NO WONDER THOSE PEOPLE ARE STARVING
17:57:53 * oerjan notes north korean news praise the great destruction made by the missile
17:59:20 <Vorpal> elliott, is the third monkey island game any good?
17:59:55 * oerjan is a little worried by the lack of independent confirmation. also by the fickleness of his f key
18:01:08 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes. It pretty much ignores the second's ending, and it didn't have the original creator involved, but it's still good.
18:01:14 <elliott> Vorpal: Only play it after the first two ... or you give up on them.
18:01:24 <elliott> Vorpal: The fourth you should buy just so you can burn it.
18:01:39 <Vorpal> elliott, I played the first, and I'm in the last chapter of the second
18:01:55 <elliott> Vorpal: That's quick ... assuming you just started recently.
18:02:06 <elliott> I can never beat the ending of the second.
18:02:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Note that ScummVM is "slightly" slow with MI3. Not a problem on any vaguely modern machine of course.
18:02:38 <elliott> It's all the high tech! (640x480x8!)
18:02:39 <Vorpal> elliott, well, over a week ago. And so far I just needed to google twice when I got stuck
18:02:55 <Vorpal> elliott, sempron 3300+?
18:03:29 <elliott> Vorpal: It should do. You'll know after the opening cutscene and trying to play.
18:03:39 <Vorpal> elliott, well, it isn't downloaded yet
18:03:44 <elliott> Especially manoevring the cannon.
18:03:45 <Vorpal> oh wait, there it goes
18:04:04 <elliott> Vorpal: You have to shoot some boats at the start.
18:04:19 <elliott> Vorpal: Failing that, just put ScummVM on your laptop and VNC/whatever in from a bigger screen?
18:04:38 <Vorpal> elliott, hrrm. X forwarding?
18:04:40 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh, BTW, click-hold to do actions with things in MI3. It's one of those circular interface things.
18:04:51 <elliott> Does X forwarding work for SDL or whatever?
18:04:56 <elliott> Vorpal: (And right click is inventory.)
18:05:13 <Vorpal> elliott, circular interface as in NWN?
18:05:49 <elliott> Vorpal: You hold it down and a little coin comes up; the middle is look, to the right is eat/talk, to the left is use.
18:05:57 <elliott> (Yes, this is flexible enough to handle the whole game.)
18:06:12 <elliott> Oh, and single-clicking stuff in the inventory lets you combine it with other stuff unless I'm vastly misremembering.
18:06:21 <elliott> Vorpal: I think there's some shortcut to do "the default thing" with an object; double-clicking?
18:06:32 <Vorpal> elliott, http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.zoecchi.com/Images/Games/NWN2KOTOR2/NWNradial.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.zoecchi.com/_include/obsidian2.asp&usg=__KK4evUDhrVGHPRPbOInkSuc9eSI=&h=300&w=300&sz=33&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=qhz6BBuEs1n5xM:&tbnh=130&tbnw=121&prev=/images%3Fq%3DNWN%2Bmenu%2Binterface%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DcIR%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.moz
18:06:32 <Vorpal> illa:en-US:official%26biw%3D1508%26bih%3D679%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=280&ei=_2wfTaq_NY3usgba6OXnDA&oei=_2wfTaq_NY3usgba6OXnDA&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=31&ved=1t:429,r:4,s:0&tx=92&ty=52
18:06:49 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, cut and paste it
18:06:52 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, like that, except that it's only three and one's in the middle.
18:06:55 <elliott> And no, the first line worked fine.
18:07:43 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway if there are only 3, how can it be circular then?
18:07:55 <elliott> Vorpal: It appears in a circular coin :p
18:08:04 <Vorpal> elliott, also see those arrows at some points? They open to circular sub-menus
18:08:25 <Vorpal> elliott, for the spell menu it feels like ad-infinum in NWN
18:08:32 <elliott> Vorpal: http://quick.mixnmojo.com/screenshots/CmiLauncherCoin1.jpg This is the coin.
18:09:06 -!- augur_ has joined.
18:09:08 <Vorpal> elliott, aiee, please tell me it uses an antialiased edge in the game?
18:09:26 <elliott> Vorpal: It's too low resolution to look that ugly. :p
18:09:37 <elliott> Dunno if it's antialiased, but it doesn't look jaggedy.
18:09:50 <Vorpal> elliott, the one you linked looks jagged
18:09:59 <elliott> Yes, it's higher-resolution. I Think it's from the launcher.
18:10:25 <elliott> Here's two ACTUAL SCREENSHOTS
18:10:27 <elliott> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_xeu4Tx9GGtk/TM8sd_TKYaI/AAAAAAAAEFM/jvmKMR4mAVw/s640/Curse+of+Monkey+Island+Screenshot.jpg
18:10:28 <elliott> http://firsthour.net/screenshots/curse-of-monkey-island/curse-of-monkey-island-guybrush-barbershop.jpg
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18:12:14 <elliott> Vorpal: The fourth game, by the way, abandoned the nice mouse-based UI for both 3D keyboard-based movement, and KEYBOARD-BASED ACTION-TAKING THAT CHANGED AS YOU LOOKED AROUND.
18:12:15 <elliott> http://www.activewin.com/reviews/software/games/m/images/mi4_019.jpg
18:12:16 <Vorpal> elliott, they both looks jpged
18:12:29 <elliott> If the game actually had any plot it'd be a shame; as it is, it's good because it keeps anyone from playing it.
18:13:09 <elliott> Vorpal: So where are you in number two? I forget the division of chapters exactly.
18:13:24 <Vorpal> elliott, just at start of last chapter. Dinky island
18:13:53 <elliott> Vorpal: If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, what colour is the tree?
18:13:55 <Vorpal> 44MMonkey Island 1 - The Secret of Monkey Island
18:13:55 <Vorpal> 203MMonkey Island 2 - LeChuck's Revenge
18:14:11 <elliott> Vorpal: You can actually get him to agree, BTW.
18:14:14 <elliott> Just keep clicking answers.
18:14:15 <Vorpal> elliott, ... not happened yet?
18:14:20 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh. Talk to Herman Toothrot.
18:14:33 <Vorpal> elliott, well I took a pause right here and now
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18:15:01 <elliott> Vorpal: The final chapter is quite short though.
18:15:02 <Vorpal> elliott, my head hurts if I have headphones on for more than an hour or two in a single stretch
18:15:05 <elliott> Well, compared to the others.
18:15:14 <Vorpal> elliott, so taking at least half an hour pause
18:15:17 <elliott> Now I want to play, aargh.
18:15:27 <elliott> Vorpal: Headphones, for that authentic Adlib sound.
18:16:12 <elliott> Vorpal: For Monkey Island 2?
18:16:59 <Vorpal> elliott, well actually my computer can't do either very well, I'm using pre-generated ogg (the iMUSE switchover works perfectly with it somehow)
18:17:13 <elliott> Vorpal: What. Adlib emulation requires, like, a 386.
18:17:44 <Vorpal> elliott, does the third game use iMUSE blending?
18:17:56 <elliott> Vorpal: It does but it's more subtle.
18:18:16 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes. Also the tracks are pre-rendered CD audio.
18:18:38 <Vorpal> elliott, you will get seeking then
18:18:56 <Vorpal> elliott, but in the original
18:19:12 <elliott> Know of any .iso rips of the third? This computer lacks an ... optical ... drive ...
18:22:54 <Vorpal> elliott, try tpb, for the authentic .rar rip
18:23:07 <elliott> Vorpal: Every time my brain hears compressed audio, I go unconscious.
18:23:18 <elliott> I bought the fucking CDs, why isn't there an official, free, legal download I can get.
18:23:27 <Vorpal> elliott, you have another computer
18:23:28 <elliott> OH RIGHT I FORGOT I PAID FOR A TINY PIECE OF PLASTIC
18:23:31 <elliott> Vorpal: It has no optical drive.
18:23:37 <Vorpal> elliott, your fucking imac
18:23:47 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm not getting that out of the box for this.
18:23:51 <elliott> Also I have no idea where the CD is.
18:24:48 -!- Sasha2 has joined.
18:26:14 <Vorpal> elliott, well I saw no ISO rip no
18:26:39 <elliott> http://torrentz.eu/a8b84d6f65d843ba2754d84093df88ecff049f49
18:26:47 <elliott> Vorpal: First thing on torrentz :P
18:26:48 <Vorpal> elliott, only looked at tpb
18:27:00 -!- Sasha has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
18:27:09 <elliott> Vorpal: Why would you even look at tpb? It barely has anything and the tracker rarely if ever works ...
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18:30:20 <Phantom_Hoover> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/LiquidThreads_sample_screenshot.jpg
18:30:38 <elliott> dear current: 240 KiB/s is insufficient speed!!! go faster
18:30:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Is that for ... Talk pages?
18:31:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Is that coming to Wikipedia.
18:31:16 <Phantom_Hoover> It means that they're also no longer editable with the standard MW tools.
18:31:23 <elliott> 400 KiB/s over wifi, fuck yeah.
18:31:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'm going to try to forget that and also leave the world before that can happen simultaneously. brb autoerotic asphyxiation
18:32:02 <elliott> (The BEST worst way to die!)
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18:35:17 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, please list the things that are awful about it, so that I may have a reference.
18:35:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Try "EVERYTHING"
18:36:37 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, there's even more obnoxiousness that doesn't show up there.
18:36:55 <Phantom_Hoover> For instance, it has a "you have new messages" link right at the top of the screen.
18:37:23 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
18:37:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Which a) counts *any messages on a page you edit* as new ones for you and b) doesn't reset until you explicitly tell it to.
18:37:59 <elliott> Good thing I barely edit Wikipedia at all now.
18:39:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So they can mess it up even more! Yay!
18:40:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I mention all of this because it has been installed on RationalWiki (for which I have very little time for any more) and there is a dedicated cadre of users who have decided that if you think it's awful and you don't like it you're a LUDDITE who is AGAINST PROGRESS.
18:41:01 <elliott> Vorpal: ^ This is not a joke.
18:42:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well ... I've learned not to expect reason from RationalWiki ... :-P
18:44:08 <Vorpal> elliott, about one person could trust it. The guy who made it
18:44:26 <elliott> Vorpal: BUT NO, WHY NOT CLICK IT NOW AND GIVE ME YOUR PASSWORDS
18:44:51 <elliott> Vorpal: The *only* better thing is that online SSH key generator.
18:44:59 <elliott> That was the height of comedy.
18:45:03 <elliott> I don't appear to be able to Google it any more.
18:47:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki:2010_awards#Lumenos
18:55:50 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, he should have won the Lumenos award, but that thing died because everyone on RW is far more interested in discussing minutiae and acting like adolescents than actually doing anything interesting.
18:56:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'm now reading an argument you+people are having about Human. I tell you, this thing is a greater goldmine of drama than ED.
18:56:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Yep. I stopped taking it seriously forever ago, and complaining is FUN.
18:57:25 <elliott> TBH I wouldn't mind RationalWiki so much if it was instead called FunForRedditAtheistsWiki.
18:57:43 <elliott> As far as I can tell the articles designed to be amusing drown out the ones with any actual information by the thousands.
18:58:47 <elliott> (I need a better term for "reddit atheists" than "reddit atheists".)
18:58:59 <elliott> Anyway, moving on to interesting things!
18:59:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: DID YOU DO ANGULAR MOMENTUM YET
18:59:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: BUT YOU SAID YOU WOULD
18:59:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, actually, just leave that as an exercise to the game player!
19:00:16 <Vorpal> ... what is scary about floating point trig?
19:00:20 <Phantom_Hoover> I WILL NOT BE HAPPY UNTIL EVERYTHING IS A CAUCHY SEQUENCE
19:00:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Just pretend they're perfect reals.
19:00:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so shell out to mathematica for it
19:00:56 <elliott> Mathematica ... does not use cauchy sequences.
19:01:07 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm sure you could write that in it
19:01:13 <elliott> Vorpal: You could also write it in Common Lisp.
19:01:28 <elliott> Why you would shell out to an inferior language like Mathematica is unclear.
19:01:32 <Vorpal> elliott, well sure, but the line "shell out to mathematica" is funnier
19:01:44 <elliott> I would honestly rather shell out to PHP>
19:02:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, implement cauchy sequences in C then
19:02:38 <elliott> Someone help me work out my GolfScript ripoff.
19:03:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I CHOOSE YOU
19:03:52 <elliott> You can get out of it by doing angular momentum.
19:04:14 <Vorpal> elliott, golfscript is fun, try another one
19:04:27 <Vorpal> elliott, say "inferior PHP ripoff" (ouch!)
19:04:40 <elliott> No, Phantom_Hoover is scared of any work.
19:04:44 <elliott> And I really am making a golfscript ripoff.
19:04:56 <elliott> I'm having trouble distinguishing arrays of small integers and strings, though (ha ha Erlang), which is important for eval.
19:05:04 <elliott> [1 2 3] eval --> stack is 1 2 3
19:05:16 <elliott> "abc" eval --> stack is whatever the stack is after executing abc
19:05:51 <Vorpal> elliott is that an issue?
19:06:03 <Vorpal> elliott, after all C has string as array of bytes
19:06:16 <elliott> Because every variable is evaluated on reference. Evaluating anything that isn't a function should just push it to the stack.
19:06:20 <elliott> elliott: [1 2 3] eval --> stack is 1 2 3
19:07:11 <Vorpal> elliott, why not let eval execute a list?
19:07:39 <Vorpal> elliott, I fail to see the issue here
19:07:51 <elliott> Your last-but-one sentence is utterly incomprehensible.
19:08:19 <Vorpal> elliott, well does "abc" eval and [97 98 99] eval have to do different things?
19:08:34 <elliott> Because otherwise you couldn't assign [97 98 99] to a variable.
19:08:41 <elliott> Because it'd execute "abc" when you mentioned the variable.
19:08:48 <elliott> As I said, variables are evaluated when mentioned.
19:09:04 <Vorpal> elliott, then make string and list different data types?
19:09:20 <elliott> Vorpal: No, because all the operations you might want on the two are the same.
19:09:30 <elliott> I am considering tracking around the function-ness of a list at this point.
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19:15:11 <oerjan> elliott: i recall postscript has two kinds of lists depending on whether you want evaluating them to run what's inside or not
19:17:54 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: there appears to be a strong disagreement between north korea and the usa on this issue
19:18:14 <oerjan> north korea claims that you were completely obliterated by the missile i sent
19:18:35 <oerjan> while the usa claims it exploded just a few seconds after being launched
19:18:39 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, I am a Phantom_Hoover and as such cannot be destroyed with physical weapons.
19:18:55 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: the missile contained rice pudding
19:19:12 <oerjan> and incidentally caused the starving of thousands of north koreans
19:20:02 <Phantom_Hoover> I used the swatpan to catch it, and then hit you with it!
19:21:59 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:24:14 <oerjan> elliott: or wait was that dependent on storing it in a variable, my memory is a bit vague
19:26:24 -!- updog has joined.
19:26:31 <elliott> Boy, I've got a massive plate of updog right here.
19:26:40 <elliott> I don't know, updog. What *is* updog?
19:27:57 <oerjan> i have some suspicions about updog
19:28:52 <oerjan> I SUSPECT HE IS OF AN INFERIOR SUBSTRATUM
19:29:43 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: alternate spelling it seems
19:29:52 <elliott> In Newspeak updog is doubleplusgood.
19:31:06 * oerjan slaps elliott with a dickfor
19:31:10 -!- updog has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:31:22 <elliott> You didn't complete your sentence.
19:31:44 * oerjan swats elliott for ruining the joke -----###
19:32:02 <oerjan> THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES
19:32:09 * Sgeo is considering installing Linux Mint
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19:32:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Copulation.
19:32:46 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, that was so that I could infiltrate oerjan's evil tyranny and undermine it from within1
19:33:01 <elliott> AW DAMMIT UPDOG WHY DO YOU HAVE TO BE SO UPDOG
19:33:12 <elliott> Oh. It could do with some more uppercasing.
19:34:56 <Sgeo> elliott, Shut up about Newspeak!
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19:40:10 <elliott> Gah, why is it using all the CPU.
19:40:31 <oerjan> it's due to a plot by its arch-nemesis downcat
19:40:57 -!- Quadrescence has left (?).
19:41:26 <oerjan> inorite sounds like a very annoying mineral
19:41:44 -!- updog has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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19:42:26 <elliott> I already told you, I don't know
19:43:13 -!- updog has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:43:51 <Sgeo> What language is your bots in?
19:43:56 -!- updog has joined.
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19:44:43 <elliott> It is also proof that I have no concept of "pointless".
19:45:16 <Sgeo> Yet you have the gall to call things I do pointless.
19:45:32 <elliott> I detect the distinct tinge of offence.
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19:56:34 <elliott> i think i've upset sgeo forever now
19:58:40 <elliott> OS X thinks that you unpack .bin files to .bin.cpgz.
20:01:00 <ais523> sorry, I was busy saying hi to a greeting cascade in a different channel
20:01:01 <ais523> elliott: cpgz is an abbreviation for .cpio.gz?
20:02:29 <elliott> ais523: i have a lot of updog lying around, can you take care of it?
20:02:31 <coppro> elliott: also after reading perl6 "spec", I believe that @foo.filter(* % 2)>>*>>2 would have the desired effect discussed yesterday
20:03:04 <elliott> coppro: not @foo.filter(*%2)>>* ** 2?
20:03:20 <coppro> oh, no, you're right, my bad
20:03:28 <coppro> or @foo.filter(* % 2)»**»2
20:03:48 <coppro> the >> or » is the "hyper" metaoperator and extends the operation over the list
20:04:04 <coppro> » is more of a pain to actually type but more readable
20:04:21 <elliott> i think all the perl 6 editors must have really tricked-out emacs setups for unicode
20:04:35 <coppro> also this assumes filter exists and works like that
20:04:42 <coppro> I haven't checked that yet
20:05:06 <coppro> (also, re my complaint about it not being a spec, ff and fff operators are /never/ defined. They just say "have semantics like Perl 5 .. and ... flipflops)
20:07:19 <coppro> ah, nope, that's not quite right
20:08:37 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm about to test COMI (MI3) in ScummVM now.
20:09:09 <elliott> Vorpal: So if it works well, then it works well on 2.1GHz Core 2 Duo w/ 4 GiB of RAM, good nvidia integrated GPU and 256 GiB SSD. Which is of course very relevant to your situation.
20:09:35 <Vorpal> elliott, and I checked, it works well on my computer
20:10:09 <Vorpal> elliott, play it on hard!
20:10:20 <elliott> Vorpal: There is no hard, there's just "wimp" vs. "actual game".
20:10:24 <elliott> Vorpal: I assume you played MI2 on hard too.
20:10:29 <elliott> I have no idea why the easy versions exist.
20:10:34 <Vorpal> elliott, of course I used hard
20:10:37 <elliott> Why play an adventure game if you don't want puzzles?
20:10:56 <Vorpal> elliott, except for MI3 it looks like it is called normal and mega
20:11:03 <Vorpal> while for MI2 it was easy and normal
20:11:06 <elliott> Mega is the one you want to play. :p
20:11:17 <elliott> Vorpal: First report: Well, it starts up! It's ugly-LCD-scaled, though.
20:11:20 <elliott> Why are LCDs so bad at scaling?
20:11:30 <elliott> I can't use the 2x filter because 960 > 800.
20:11:45 <Vorpal> elliott, wait a second. 800?
20:11:52 <Vorpal> elliott, which dimension is 800?
20:12:05 <elliott> 640x480 * 2 = something x 960.
20:12:12 <Vorpal> elliott, can't you play it at native res?
20:12:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Sure. It gets ugly-LCD-scaled.
20:12:34 <elliott> Vorpal: Talk about non-immersive.
20:12:50 <Vorpal> elliott, idea: windowed on completely black bg
20:12:52 <elliott> Vorpal: Maybe if it could black out the rest of my screen and center it.
20:13:10 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh, and MI3 of course has voice acting, if you didn't know.
20:13:12 <elliott> Good voice acting, mind you.
20:13:14 <Vorpal> elliott, so black bg and hide menu bars then window near middle
20:13:28 <Vorpal> elliott, I noticed. I played the first scene to test it
20:13:57 <Vorpal> elliott, well no, but I had to test system reqs
20:14:30 <elliott> Why doesn't ScummVM have a 1.5x.
20:14:41 <Vorpal> elliott, black border!
20:14:43 <elliott> 960x720 with black border around it would be perfect.
20:14:53 <elliott> Vorpal: This is 128 ppi, dammit!
20:14:56 <elliott> 640x480 looks like my thumbnail!
20:15:18 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway windowed is only sane option for me. 96 dpi or such. And 24"
20:15:31 <Vorpal> elliott, 24" wide screen even
20:15:51 <elliott> Vorpal: I think every computer should come with a low-quality early-90s CRT, complete with digital-to-VGA converter.
20:16:02 <elliott> It's the best way to play.
20:18:39 <elliott> Vorpal: Allow me to demonstrate why windowed doesn't work for me.
20:19:22 <elliott> imgur appears to now transcode big pngs to jpg.
20:20:45 <elliott> Vorpal: http://ompldr.org/vNnQzdA
20:20:51 <elliott> Vorpal: Now consider that that's on a 13" screen.
20:22:22 <elliott> Vorpal: Get the picture? :p
20:22:37 <Vorpal> waiting for it to load
20:22:49 <Vorpal> elliott, yes what is the problem
20:22:59 <elliott> Vorpal: OK. First look at its size in comparison to the whole thing.
20:23:05 <elliott> Vorpal: Now try and remember how big a 13" laptop's screen is.
20:23:09 <Vorpal> elliott, SURE if you have 2x 1 TB SSD for use in RAID 1
20:23:14 <elliott> Vorpal: (Try looking at your laptop's and imagining a screen quite a bit smaller.)
20:23:27 <elliott> Get the problem? It's tiny. Not very nice.
20:23:42 <elliott> I'm going to play it with LCD-crappy-scaling, I think.
20:23:57 <Vorpal> elliott, right. Still it fills less of the screen than on my desktop
20:24:15 <elliott> Vorpal: Full screen the damn thing :P
20:24:25 <Vorpal> elliott, on a wide screen!?
20:24:31 <elliott> Vorpal: Black borders at the side, duh.
20:24:42 <elliott> Vorpal: And if you have more than 800 vertical pixels, you can use the 2x scaler.
20:24:45 <elliott> So the LCD scaling will be minimal.
20:25:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Have YOU played monkey island?
20:25:08 * Sgeo is addicted to watching DS9
20:25:26 <Sgeo> Although it is, thus far, the least entertaining series I have ever comitted myself to watching
20:25:44 <Vorpal> elliott, I have 1050 vertical
20:25:51 <Sgeo> Does it get better in season 2?
20:26:05 <elliott> Vorpal: Right. Try full-screening it; set the scaler to "2x".
20:26:17 <Vorpal> elliott, not in global options?
20:26:24 <elliott> Vorpal: No, that'll set it for the launcher UI too.
20:26:47 <elliott> Now I leave you scoundrels to play the game!
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20:29:06 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: mtmp mo 9; ytmp yr 1; s splnet(); alien. i quote below from the domain of a line behind the original file!
20:34:28 -!- Behold has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:37:54 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
20:48:14 -!- elliott has joined.
20:48:28 <elliott> Vorpal: Helpful tip for COMI: If your cursor is an arrow, double-clicking goes there immediately, btw.
20:48:34 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:50:20 * Sgeo is excited for this month
20:51:33 -!- elliott has joined.
20:51:59 <elliott> Vorpal: Have you been able to get voice-with-no-subtitles working?
20:52:07 <Sgeo> elliott, why Must O'Brien Suffer?
20:52:10 <elliott> Vorpal: It shows the subtitles for me.
20:52:32 <elliott> Vorpal: Even when I just set it to Speech.
20:52:56 <Sgeo> Have plans to meet up with a girl
20:53:06 <elliott> Vorpal: Please answer quickly.
20:53:27 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, why is this distressing?
20:53:43 * elliott envisions thousands of tiny little Sgeos running around, retreats into his own nightmare.
20:54:02 <elliott> I'm going to go drown my sorrows. In Monkey Island.
20:54:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, you are clearly incapable of a committed relationship.
20:54:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, how does Factor feel?
20:54:18 <elliott> You abandoned her, you bastard.
20:54:43 <elliott> I wonder if even Sgeo knows.
20:54:53 <Sgeo> I don't think I gave Scala more than a passing glance
20:55:16 <Sgeo> Never even touched Clojure
20:55:25 <elliott> Sgeo: OK, I give up guessing.
20:55:30 <Sgeo> I started reading about Scala again, then this channel discouraged me
20:55:38 <Sgeo> I think I went Factor -> Newspeak
20:56:02 <Sgeo> Awesome, shutup PMs me now
20:57:28 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:58:40 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: Have you been able to get voice-with-no-subtitles working? <-- no clue
21:05:53 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.12/20101026210630]).
21:07:05 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi.
21:11:23 * Sgeo wants to read The Science of Discworld at some point
21:16:56 <fizzie> 3, was that the one with Darwin in it?
21:17:45 <coppro> with the god of evolution
21:27:33 -!- elliott has joined.
21:27:47 <elliott> Sgeo: Ian Stewart is the one who wrote that EVIL BOOK, FLATTERLAND.
21:27:53 <elliott> (Information thanks to Sgeo)
21:28:02 <elliott> coppro: hello, i'm going back to playing COMI
21:28:08 <elliott> none of you are interesting enough
21:29:15 <coppro> elliott: flatterland is evil?
21:29:25 <elliott> coppro: according to Sgeo!
21:29:43 <coppro> Sgeo: flatterland is evil?
21:29:48 <elliott> 05:41:20 <SgeoN1> I just realized something horrible about Flatterland
21:29:49 <elliott> 05:42:36 <SgeoN1> It promotes the pseudoscientific bullshit involving taking scientific words, interpreting stuff as you please, and thinking it means something
21:29:49 <elliott> 05:43:10 --- join: jcp (~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539) joined #esoteric
21:29:50 <elliott> 05:44:07 <SgeoN1> I feel no guilt about spoiling this: the last scene involves the protagonist basing arguments for gender equality on Flatland's supersymmetry
21:29:52 <elliott> 05:45:29 <SgeoN1> "Supersymmetric sister! ..."
21:29:54 <elliott> 05:46:03 <SgeoN1> I forgot the rest of her advertisement on Flatland's Internet
21:30:01 <elliott> and now to play a game where i can forget all you bastards exit ->
21:30:57 <coppro> elliott: we don't exit
21:31:20 <elliott> it's funny because i meant to say exist, you bsatards.
21:32:50 <elliott> you don't know anything. i'm going back to guybrush threepwood.
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21:36:52 <Phantom_Hoover> WHAT KIND OF MATHEMATICAL CRIME CAN JUSTIFY SUCH A CRIME
21:38:12 <oerjan> supersymmetric ones, of course
21:41:48 -!- j-invariant has joined.
21:41:57 <Sgeo> "Dramatis Personae" was an awesome episode
21:46:58 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, what?
21:47:13 <Sgeo> j-invariant, what?
21:47:54 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, Dramatis Personae is the pretentious Latin name for a list of characters in a play.
21:48:18 <Sgeo> It's also an awesome season 1 episode of DS9
21:49:26 <fizzie> And a group of theater-like people in Stephenson's Diamond Age book.
21:50:46 <ais523> gah, argument in another channel: does O(1/n) mean anything at all, and if so, does it mean something different from O(1)?
21:51:44 <j-invariant> using f in O(1/n) iff f in O(n) by my definition
21:51:47 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, well, I think the definition of O(f(x)) is reliant on f being strictly increasing.
21:53:45 -!- elliott has joined.
21:53:49 <coppro> O(1/n) does mean something!
21:53:54 <olsner> k/n will be smaller than some constant eventually, so O(1/n) should imply a lower upper bound
21:54:03 <elliott> ais523: O(1/n) = O(n^-1) -- it's EXPONENTIAL!
21:54:20 <elliott> it definitely isn't O(1) though i don't think
21:54:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: n^-1 <-- LOOKS LIKE EXPONENTIATION TO ME
21:54:39 <oerjan> f(x) = 1 isn't O(1/n) :D
21:54:43 <coppro> O(1/n) is not the same as either O(1) or O(n)
21:55:01 <Sgeo> elliott, Dramatis Personae <3
21:55:07 <j-invariant> f in O(1) means that there exists some x' and c such that every x > x' we have f(x) >= c
21:55:44 <elliott> i've always thought =< would be a better symbol
21:56:00 <Sgeo> Isn't there a language that does that?
21:56:14 <coppro> you merely described \Omega(1) there
21:56:28 <coppro> no, that is exactly \Omega(1)
21:56:34 <elliott> Sgeo: btw, the Dominion arc starts properly at the end of season 2.
21:56:46 <Phantom_Hoover> WP gives f(x) is O(g(x)) iff |f(x)| <= M|g(x)| forall x>c.
21:56:50 <oerjan> ais523: i guess the confusion is because for things larger than O(1) you have an equivalent choice of _either_ using the "every x > x'" form _or_ adding a constant and saying it holds everywhere?
21:57:05 <coppro> although you forgot the absolute value condition
21:57:19 <oerjan> and those obviously give different interpretations for O(1/n)
21:57:24 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: uh what
21:57:57 <coppro> and f(x) is O(g(x)), then f(x) is also O(1)
21:58:20 <elliott> new question -- are there any algorithms that are O(1/n)?
21:58:32 <elliott> I think there are, but only ones that explicitly do a for loop up to 1/n :P
21:58:38 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: oh, you're saying 1/x is O(1)
21:59:02 <coppro> more generally, x^n is O(x^m) if n < m
21:59:14 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, not if you allow n to be arbitrarily close to 0.
21:59:21 <oerjan> ais523: however when you use O()-notation for things like Taylor series, you cannot just add constants (e.g. since you are taking limits with real numbers rather than a sequence)
21:59:46 <olsner> hmm, don't you *multiply* by constants though?
21:59:58 <coppro> n^-10000000000000000 is O(1)
22:00:06 <elliott> Pop quiz: How do you install Ubuntu on a machine that can't run unetbootin, doesn't have an optical drive, and without a USB drive to hand?
22:00:37 <elliott> Prizes offered for ansewrs.
22:00:40 <coppro> elliott: grab a minimalist floppy with debbootstrap installed?
22:00:52 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: why not?
22:00:58 <elliott> coppro: um ok this is a macbook air, it doesn't have an optical drive and it _certainly_ doesn't have a floppy drive :D
22:01:22 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: uh what
22:01:26 <elliott> coppro: I'm thinking either netboot, or partition the drive, somehow write the Ubuntu CD to that drive, and boot from it
22:01:34 <coppro> it's about asymptotic behavior, Phantom_Hoover
22:01:38 <coppro> elliott: there's a windows-based installer
22:01:46 <elliott> coppro: It's a Mac. It doesn't come with Windows either.
22:01:53 <elliott> coppro: also Wubi is beyond shit
22:01:56 <elliott> it is the shittiest McShit of Shitville
22:01:58 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, wait, starting point isn't... OK, you're right.
22:01:59 <olsner> oerjan: istr the thing you use for Taylor series is a different notation that just happens to look similar to O-notation but is actually completely different
22:02:04 <coppro> elliott: can you repartition the drive safely?
22:02:10 <elliott> coppro: yes, while it's booted no less
22:02:22 <coppro> elliott: just do that and have a VM run the CD
22:02:23 <Gregor> elliott: Hello, welcome to McDonalds, would you like to try our Shitty McShitville McShit?
22:02:33 <elliott> coppro: netbooting might actually work out in this case -- if I can install a netbooter without a CD. I think rEFIt might be able to do it?
22:02:46 <elliott> coppro: VM hardware veeeeery different to Mac hardware.
22:02:50 <Sgeo> <elliott> Sgeo: btw, the Dominion arc starts properly at the end of season 2.
22:03:09 <Sgeo> Also, I feel that ok was a proper response especially given that the previous line was about Erlang
22:03:09 <coppro> elliott: Ubuntu installer doesn't care about hardware does it?
22:03:15 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, rarely
22:03:28 <elliott> coppro: erm. i wouldn't trust it not to, especially since EFI is ~weirdcakes~
22:03:30 <coppro> elliott: and if it does, it should work well enough to dpkg-reconfigure everything
22:03:32 <elliott> and it installs bootloaders
22:03:45 <coppro> elliott: oh yeah, forgot about bootloaders
22:03:57 <Sgeo> I did read Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency a while ago
22:03:57 <coppro> debbootstrap then and do the bootloader config manually
22:04:06 <Sgeo> coppro will want me to read it again, iirc
22:04:13 <elliott> coppro: i don't like your solutions, i just want to get the actual cd booted, through any means :)
22:04:20 <elliott> the actual installation I want to do with a native boot of the normal installer
22:04:24 <coppro> elliott: fine. write the cd to partition then
22:04:36 <elliott> coppro: I am not convinced that will work :D a USB image, maybe
22:04:45 <elliott> plus can ubuntu install to the media it was booted off?
22:04:51 <elliott> IIRC it's a pain to get it to do that
22:05:34 <oerjan> olsner: um i think the only difference with Taylor series is that you are taking the limit as you go to a particular real value rather than as you go to infinity
22:06:04 -!- pingveno has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:06:22 <coppro> elliott: I don't think it's difficult at all
22:06:24 -!- pingveno has joined.
22:06:38 <elliott> a netboot is looking appealing at this point
22:06:44 <coppro> no, you wouldn't be able to without massive trickery
22:06:45 <elliott> erm, if i can netboot over wifi
22:07:03 -!- pingveno has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:07:04 <elliott> coppro: well i've done similar things
22:07:08 <elliott> coppro: involving lazy, forced unmounts
22:07:15 <elliott> coppro: using unetbootin in its put-it-in-C:\ mode
22:07:26 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NetBoot WONDER IF I COULD USETHIS
22:08:20 * coppro is going to add the bias warning template
22:08:22 <coppro> where is that template
22:09:48 <coppro> elliott: that page you just linked
22:11:19 <coppro> "technology from Apple"
22:11:24 -!- pingveno has joined.
22:11:27 <elliott> coppro: you do realise that NetBoot is a proprietary Apple thing?
22:11:53 <elliott> coppro: does it "read like an advertisement" solely because it doesn't have a huge Criticism section or something?
22:12:02 <elliott> everything there is neutral and referenced
22:12:20 <coppro> elliott: it doesn't seem neutral to me; if other disagree, wiki magic will remove that template and things will be well
22:13:05 <coppro> but it, in my opinion, ought to read more like "NetBoot is a proprietary Apple implementation of network booting" or the like
22:13:25 <elliott> coppro: that sounds less neutral than the current text.
22:14:27 <elliott> coppro: "proprietary" being the fourth word
22:14:43 <elliott> NetBoot is Apple's implementation of network booting -- sure
22:15:01 <coppro> elliott: ok, dropping proprietary would be ok
22:15:22 <coppro> I actually don't know enough about it to know if it's proprietary, I just said that because you did
22:15:47 <elliott> i think the extensions to the protocol are proprietary
22:16:45 <elliott> wonder if there's a usb stick lying around here
22:25:34 <elliott> ais523: is there an #ubuntu-less-stupid?
22:26:50 <elliott> why not, i have a question requiring actual though to answer
22:40:27 <ais523> elliott: you could try a channel at random
22:40:40 <ais523> especially on freenode, ubuntu saturation may be high enough to find someone who knows
22:40:55 <elliott> ais523: picked my channel, will ask a question now
22:41:09 <elliott> I want to write the Live CD/USB to a disk partition and boot that with e.g. GRUB
22:41:12 <elliott> is this possible? if so, how?
22:41:16 <elliott> ais523: am i doing it right?
22:41:54 <elliott> 22:41 itaylor57: Gartral: they arent flags just optiopns
22:43:27 <Sgeo> Maybe the Bajoran-Cardassian stuff is interesting
22:43:33 <Sgeo> (Just saw "Duet")
22:44:03 <elliott> Of course it's interesting X-P
22:44:18 <Sgeo> I thought it would bore me
22:44:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Does Star Trek count as mass-market really?
22:44:38 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, ... what does and does not count as mass-market?
22:44:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: As what, mass-market?
22:45:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yer not a HATER are ye?!
22:45:21 <Sgeo> Does HHGG count as mass-market?
22:45:37 <Sgeo> Does the SCP Foundation wiki?
22:45:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Which elliott has not, and as such he is inferior to sgeo.
22:45:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I've read like 55% of it!
22:46:11 <elliott> ais523: your idea didn't work
22:50:00 <elliott> Vorpal: you know how you mentioned using a native EFI bootloader?
22:50:11 <elliott> Vorpal: apparently VTs don't work with that. or suspend/resume. or brightness control
22:56:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's your lucky day! You get to help me figure out my new partitioning scheme!
22:57:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I NEED THREE PARTITIONS YO
22:58:10 <elliott> What's the best partition format that both OS X and Linux can read?
22:59:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Um, I would think that they can both read FAT32 at least.
22:59:04 <elliott> In fact I know that for a fact.
23:03:52 <elliott> Oh come on, surely someone is opinionated enough to partition my drive for me.
23:06:08 <elliott> ais523: why don't you partition my drive :P
23:06:14 <coppro> FAT32 will work though
23:07:55 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: apparently VTs don't work with that. or suspend/resume. or brightness control <-- wtf wtf and wtf
23:08:06 <Vorpal> elliott, most wtf at the first thing though!
23:08:14 <elliott> Vorpal: they stay black apparently
23:08:15 <elliott> Vorpal: because the legacy bios support doesn't go on
23:08:19 <elliott> Vorpal: so clearly linux's efi support SUCKS
23:08:36 <elliott> I can't figure out how to partition this drive though
23:08:46 <elliott> 256 GiB ... quite small since I need two partitions and then a shared one
23:08:57 <Vorpal> elliott, well get an 1 TB SSD!
23:09:01 <elliott> shared I think I'll go for ext2 or ext3, since there's a FUSE thing for ext2/ext3 designed for OS X
23:09:04 <elliott> http://alperakcan.org/?open=projects&project=fuse-ext2
23:09:15 <elliott> not sure if i can trust it
23:09:24 <elliott> last release 0.0.7 in 2009 X-D
23:09:35 <Vorpal> elliott, question: are there no insult-fights in MI2?
23:09:54 <elliott> Vorpal: there are in MI3 though
23:10:29 <elliott> maybe ... 96 gig shared partition
23:10:34 <elliott> that only leaves 80 gigs per os
23:11:04 <Vorpal> elliott, I sing the joyful song of 1 TB disks in RAID 1 at this point!
23:11:25 <oerjan> sing a song of sixpence
23:11:37 <Vorpal> oerjan, err was this a pun of some sort?
23:11:41 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:11:42 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm fucking impressed that they can even fit 256 gigs into this thing :P
23:11:55 <elliott> I keep turning it on its side trying to figure out the bulge where all the components are
23:12:34 <oerjan> Vorpal: a very cheap pun. at least i doubt you can get 1 TB disks for six pence
23:12:37 <elliott> Vorpal: btw one really cool thing about os x is that you can resize the current booted OS partition
23:15:15 <elliott> Vorpal: quick, how should i partition!
23:20:03 <elliott> i just want actual partitioning advice at this point
23:20:32 <elliott> os x size, ubuntu size, and shared size
23:21:41 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur.
23:24:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: 256 gigs give me three numbers
23:25:55 <oerjan> clearly this requires a salomonic judgement. i hear he was good at partitioning.
23:26:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Let me restate.
23:26:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: How many gigs should I give to OS X.
23:26:15 <elliott> How many gigs should I give to Ubuntu.
23:26:18 <elliott> How many gigs should I give to shared.
23:26:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That gives a whopping 64 gigs for each OS ... waay to smal.
23:26:53 <elliott> I want to use the entire disk.
23:27:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You are telling me to give 32 gigs to each OS.
23:27:33 <elliott> 80 gigs is more reasonable.
23:29:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, incidentally, what in god's name are you wearing in your Facebook profile picture?
23:29:08 <elliott> Maybe 72 for both OSes, and 112 for shared.
23:29:28 <elliott> oh god mental image stop it
23:29:53 <elliott> Hmm. I've currently used 34 gigs on this OS X partition and I barely have anything on it.
23:30:49 <elliott> Perhaps 96 (OS X) + 64 (Ubuntu), leaving 96 for the shared partition.
23:32:47 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:35:02 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: quick, how should i partition! <-- 10 GB for OS X, rest for linux
23:35:16 <elliott> Vorpal: you do realise that even a base os x install is >10gigs?
23:35:33 <elliott> this thing is 3 days old and its os x partition is 34 gig used
23:35:42 <elliott> Vorpal: also i want a shared partition
23:37:13 <elliott> No. But I've barely added anything.
23:39:45 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, why are you looking at my Facebook profile?
23:39:47 <variable> I just found the worst Useless Use Of Cat ever: cat a >> file; cat b >> file; cat c >> file; cat d >> file;
23:39:51 <Sgeo> Also: Part of a blood drop suit
23:40:03 <Sgeo> Was volunteering at a blood drive at my school
23:40:22 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: you do realise that even a base os x install is >10gigs? <-- ah, uh
23:40:30 <elliott> variable: and I say that as an *advocate* for useless uses of cat :)
23:40:32 <Vorpal> elliott, how much more than 10 GB?
23:40:40 <elliott> Vorpal: I do actually plan to use this occasionally.
23:40:46 <Vorpal> <elliott> this thing is 3 days old and its os x partition is 34 gig used <--- what the fucking thing
23:40:54 <elliott> Vorpal: To be fair, it also has iLife installed.
23:40:58 <Vorpal> elliott, 60 GB to OS X?
23:41:04 <Sgeo> http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs941.snc4/73456_489504182743_618027743_7473878_3043494_n.jpg
23:41:07 <elliott> Vorpal: More like 72 to 96 gigs.
23:41:15 <elliott> Vorpal: Ubuntu should be fine on 64 to 72 gigs. Rest can go to shared.
23:41:25 <Vorpal> elliott, well don't ask me if you don't want to get an answer!
23:41:34 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't want an answer that's unworkable :P
23:41:39 <elliott> Sgeo: What animal is that.
23:42:24 <Vorpal> looks like a strawberry to me
23:42:32 <Vorpal> (no not an amimal indeed!)
23:43:30 <fizzie> I have this Ubuntu I've been using a while, it's taking a bit less than 10 jiggabytes, discounting /home. (Just as another point of data.)
23:43:49 <variable> Phantom_Hoover, http://pastebin.com/Z3nFQBfk
23:44:26 <elliott> fizzie: Counting home in this case.
23:44:32 <elliott> fizzie: A lot of things will be shared but not all.
23:44:52 <fizzie> elliott: Er, well, my /home is 315G, so that's not a helpful data point for you, I think.
23:44:53 <variable> Phantom_Hoover, he asked me why it doesn't work
23:44:56 <elliott> variable: the kind of code only a python programmer could write
23:45:03 <elliott> variable: love the duplicated list-contrib lines
23:45:16 <fizzie> The kind of face only a Python programmer could love.
23:45:16 <elliott> fizzie: Well, yes, indeed.
23:45:38 <elliott> fizzie: "If they had offered a terabyte SSD..."
23:47:22 <fizzie> ...they would have asked a lot of money for it.
23:47:30 <elliott> fizzie: They already asked a lot of money.
23:48:26 <augur> whats wrong elliott
23:48:41 <augur> did the mean GHCi do bad things to you
23:48:44 <olsner> nan is unequal to everything including itself, what's the problem? :)
23:48:53 <augur> show me on the doll where simon peyton jones touched you
23:49:00 <elliott> olsner: IEEEE CANNOT OVERRIDE THE LAWS OF MATHEMATICS
23:49:07 <elliott> YOU ARE BREAKING THEM PRELUDE
23:49:36 <olsner> those "laws of mathematics" should be saying something about not holding when dividing by zero
23:49:50 <augur> olsner: obviously that doesnt matter
23:49:55 <augur> for all x, x == x.
23:50:03 <elliott> 0/0 shouldn't be a valid program, but if it is
23:50:08 <elliott> then it'd better return a meaningful result
23:50:09 <augur> this is simply true regardless of anything
23:50:16 <elliott> augur: SURE THING AYN RAND
23:50:23 <elliott> ayn rand would have hated floating point
23:50:27 <augur> I SAID FORALL X NOT FORALL A
23:50:32 <elliott> she'd write books on the evil of floating point
23:51:23 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I think I once said that to an Objectivist at my school.
23:51:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I ... doubt he got it
23:52:22 <elliott> augur: <ayn rand> lolz A=A this is basis of philosophy because i am smart
23:52:28 <elliott> augur: <ieee> nan != nan bitches
23:52:31 <elliott> augur: <ayn rand> WAAAAAAR
23:52:51 <augur> oh is that true about float? lol
23:52:56 <Phantom_Hoover> I still have no idea what the hell the "A is A" thing is meant to mean.
23:53:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: yOU ARE YOURSELF AND NO OTHER SELF;;;;ERGO TAXES IS THEFT
23:53:16 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: all things are self-identical
23:53:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I think it's meant to be like ... uh ... you are yourself, and you are not anyone else, so you have your own existence and consciousness and mind
23:53:34 <elliott> and are therefore morally obligated only to yourself
23:53:58 <elliott> i hereby accuse augur of being a smelly objectivist
23:54:10 <augur> hey im not smelly! :(
23:54:14 <Phantom_Hoover> I accuse augur of not knowing about smelly objectivists.
23:54:17 <augur> nor an objectivist but
23:55:35 <elliott> http://dis.4chan.org/read/prog/1293725159/30 is it a sign of mental retardation if i can't stop moving my cursor around with the dot?
23:57:47 <j-invariant> nobody except godel should be allowed to say anything about it
23:58:40 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExFAT
23:58:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: GEB is ... not a good book.
23:59:31 <coppro> it certainly shouldn't be considered a good math book