< 1294704013 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION turns back to Slate < 1294704093 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: A universal property in category theory holds all extensional information about an objects behavior: the computational object is just a witness for the universal property < 1294704135 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: if we want to do a large scale program it seems necessary to base modules on this: Otherwise a proof might require a computation that spans several modules (and takes hours to compute) < 1294704158 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: i meant the language you thought you had enough knowledge to implement, but OK :P < 1294704161 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: but category theory is not entirely non-computational: So it is very difficult < 1294704173 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when did I ever say I have any clue how to make it :P < 1294704226 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: well i meant presumably you have a "better-than-Haskell" in your head that's like Haskell except better :) < 1294704230 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i doubt that's based on category theory. < 1294704255 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I don't know if I have any significant ideas to improve haskell < 1294704273 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: don't you have like 10 languages in your head at once :| < 1294704274 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do < 1294704280 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't mean improve haskell < 1294704282 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: what i'm saying is < 1294704292 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: what language isn't based on category theory, and would be nice to implement this polynomial stuff in, in your head < 1294704551 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: the silly thing is, THAT is the language I was trying to implement < 1294704555 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1294704555 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :call your language CCC+SK < 1294704562 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: with the polynomials? < 1294704566 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: hahah lmao that quadrescence post about haskell has got a followup < 1294704567 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently, < 1294704568 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: anyway it's sort of an "algebra system" < 1294704572 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the monad laws aren't automatically enforced, < 1294704576 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: except (dependently) typed < 1294704579 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and since Monad isn't a subclass of Functor, < 1294704584 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell is pseudo-mathematics < 1294704588 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: but it's not for writing proofs in, just mathematical algorithm < 1294704588 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1294704589 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :loool < 1294704603 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm he isn't here right now < 1294704606 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder if he's gone away forever < 1294704607 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be nice < 1294704608 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quadrescence is odd < 1294704617 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin: we've had more than our fair share of him. < 1294704618 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :his last blog post was ridiculous < 1294704621 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more than #haskell. < 1294704638 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin: which one < 1294704645 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one about the cargo cult < 1294704646 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Follow-Up to Infamous Post < 1294704648 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1294704649 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's old < 1294704662 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin: yeah, uh, i'm quoting from the follow up to that < 1294704663 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1294704674 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I figiured < 1294704676 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-i < 1294704698 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i started reading his uhh "book" < 1294704704 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he seems to think that rewriting languages solve everything < 1294704708 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*term rewriting < 1294704727 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10.12.27:22:32:19 Quadrescence: can you make any constructive suggestions? < 1294704727 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10.12.27:22:33:08 rename monad to something else, delete "morphism" from your vocabulary unless you have reason to need it < 1294704727 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10.12.27:22:36:27 Quadrescence: that's not radical enough < 1294704728 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10.12.27:22:37:56 ok, rename haskell to Fortran++ < 1294704766 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1294704785 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he kept bugging everyone in here to write for his blog :) < 1294704858 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: seen cryptol? < 1294704862 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: ages ago yes < 1294704867 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's ... kinda cool i guess? < 1294704869 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: a bit like that, I guess < 1294704877 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"kinda cool"?? < 1294704879 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1294704883 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't look into it much! < 1294704883 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's great < 1294704891 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except non free... < 1294704896 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: if you're going to write like, a dependent CAS, then i wouldn't try and e.g. implement polynomials in haskell < 1294704900 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea is good though: Use dependent types < 1294704905 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: I'd implement a sort-of-symbolic dependent language < 1294704907 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and do the rest in that < 1294704923 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: swatted to death < 1294704925 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dependent types are hard to implement nicely though < 1294704931 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and are still hard to program in < 1294704956 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: why are you ehird < 1294704983 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i am < 1294704996 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin: says the agda user < 1294704998 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coq is soo easy :}}}} < 1294705005 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1294705014 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're still hard < 1294705017 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coq and agda are equally useless < 1294705023 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1294705028 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :computers are useless, let's get rid of them < 1294705031 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the specific thing I want to do < 1294705041 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: you really need your own lang for it i feel... < 1294705047 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: Axiom is kinda close to what you want in fact. < 1294705055 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, a dependent CAS < 1294705063 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. The free ATi drivers seem to be genuinely non-shitty these days. < 1294705145 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: i need a unicode cross or something < 1294705146 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in X < 1294705153 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a hollow square or circle < 1294705156 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FILL MY NEED < 1294705297 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: . < 1294705299 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: have you seen Axiom? < 1294705325 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup, definitely *insanely* better at video display, and I don't actually have a good OpenGL test case... < 1294705352 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But as I clearly don't actually use OpenGL much, moot point. :P < 1294705383 0 :jesus_muppet!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1294705420 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: no < 1294705426 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: you perhaps should < 1294705437 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: it's also a gigantic literate program :^) < 1294705482 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: basically Axiom is this crazy developed-since-1970 literate program that implements a strongly-typed, mathematical type hierarchy-based CAS < 1294705493 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Matrixinmatrix.jpg < 1294705495 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: note the Type: lines < 1294705501 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-65-80.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1294705510 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: fully symbolic, etc. < 1294705525 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: yeah really I should stop being such a hermit and just use existing software < 1294705540 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: oh i am not saying that axiom is the solution < 1294705544 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: i'm saying you should look at it :) < 1294705561 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom_(computer_algebra_system)#Documentation click a pdf and start reading :D < 1294705567 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: k, ignored < 1294705571 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the literate program < 1294705574 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: oh grow up < 1294705586 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why did coppro ignore? < 1294705596 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because he's even more childish than I am < 1294705599 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because this channel is better without ehird < 1294705600 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :eherd < 1294705606 0 :eherd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm a herd of Es < 1294705619 0 :eherd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*this channel is almost silent without < 1294705627 0 :eherd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the bits that aren't silent, mostly incomprehensible one-sided conversations < 1294705652 0 :eherd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: I think there are probably very few systems developed since the early 70s < 1294705662 0 :eherd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that are still in active (non-maintanence) development today < 1294705670 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eherd: changing your nick is not sufficient < 1294705674 0 :eherd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*maintenance < 1294705680 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1294705689 0 :eherd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: my ident hasn't changed < 1294705694 0 :eherd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: so if it's based on nickserv: HI. < 1294705708 0 :eherd!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ehurd < 1294705710 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, OMFG kernel mode setting. < 1294705711 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Axiom project focuses on the "30 Year Horizon". The primary philosophy is that Axiom needs to develop several fundamental features in order to be useful to the next generation of computational mathematicians. Knuth's literate programming technique is used throughout the source code. Axiom plans to use proof technology to prove the correctness of the algorithms (such as Coq and ACL2). < 1294705715 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: there's no possible way i'm still ignored now < 1294705722 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol literate programming < 1294705724 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow this is interetsing < 1294705727 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't not heard zzo38 today < 1294705736 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It makes my framebuffer actually use the native resolution of the display! < 1294705737 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1294705743 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTHER THINGS ZZO38 LIKES: BREATHING < 1294705786 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehurd: this is interesting actually, gonna check it out < 1294705797 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: "For example, Axiom’s integrator gives you the an- swer when an answer exists. If one does not, it provides a proof that there is no answer." < 1294705813 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*answer < 1294705836 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: "A function can take a type as argument, and its return value can also be a type. For example, Fraction is a function, that takes an IntegralDomain as argument, and returns the field of fractions of its argument." < 1294705847 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: i think this is more like \Omega{}mega than Agda, though < 1294705854 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure though < 1294705932 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1294705935 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omegamega is so stupid < 1294705973 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehurd: so apparently you have a u now < 1294705999 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: is it? < 1294706001 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: oh indeed < 1294706013 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: it's obvious that your ignore didn't fail, btw. < 1294706025 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehurd: it's just crazy, like reimplementing everything at multiple levels? < 1294706033 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: well i might be wrong < 1294706035 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: i just meant < 1294706041 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: i don't think that axiom lets you do actual dependency < 1294706044 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: i.e. pi types < 1294706048 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: sigma maybe < 1294706058 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: i don't know omegamega, so i wasn't trying to draw a strong comparison. < 1294706104 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1294706105 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehurd: it's probably dynamically checking types < 1294706110 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: no i do not think so < 1294706113 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: it's strongly-typed < 1294706124 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: which volume are you reading? < 1294706125 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or are you not < 1294706190 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: ? < 1294706209 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's this "30 year horizon"? < 1294706228 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's neither sigma, nor pi, nor dynamically checking < 1294706236 0 :drakhan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Wychodzi < 1294706250 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin: owhat are you talking about? :D < 1294706256 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omega < 1294706337 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was talking about axiom < 1294706401 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am seeing universal properties and categories everywhre < 1294706429 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :categories are everywhere < 1294706436 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so are universal properties! < 1294706443 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I realized that divisibility forms a category < 1294706449 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an order < 1294706459 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any partial order can be made into a category < 1294706464 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ < 1294706469 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: it's described at the top < 1294706488 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: so which volume are you reading < 1294706517 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :divisibility is more special than any old partial order < 1294706521 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1294706563 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most partial orders are more special than any old partial order :P < 1294706568 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin: what < 1294706571 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: helloooo < 1294706572 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, we can set up a partial order of partial orders < 1294706574 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by specialness < 1294706588 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin: oh you crafty < 1294706594 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1294706609 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: how many more times should i ping you < 1294706702 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: < 1294706705 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :??? < 1294706729 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: which volume are you reading < 1294706730 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of Axiom < 1294706753 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not < 1294706860 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: you said about the 30 year thing < 1294706863 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's mentioned in the book < 1294706879 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: http://axiom-developer.org/axiom-website/bookvol0.pdf is the introduction book which contains all the interesting info < 1294706886 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vs. all the implementation details and code in the rest more or less :P < 1294706896 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: contains the general overview of the system and cool stuff etc. < 1294706934 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well ok there's more but < 1294706949 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: DID I MENTION: category theory plays a large part in axiom < 1294706951 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC < 1294706997 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i don't know that for _sure_ < 1294707145 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes you are < 1294707355 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: are you reading it? :p < 1294707381 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: i think it's actually surprisingly close to what you were talking about wanting, from reading this volume 0 < 1294707420 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: heh it uses categories to mean something other than what category theory means by them < 1294707422 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think < 1294707571 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think j-invariant fell asleep < 1294707649 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hii < 1294707664 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: are you kirby all of a sudden? < 1294707675 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1294707679 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1294707759 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehurd: compare: < 1294707771 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(10 http://www.reddit.com/r/compsci/comments/ez93s/the_future_of_software_system_correctness/c1c6ps2 < 1294707774 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(1) < 1294707789 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: what's 2 :P < 1294707789 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(2) http://www.reddit.com/r/compsci/comments/ez93s/the_future_of_software_system_correctness/c1c7ks6 < 1294707804 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly the same thing except one guy said "prime numbers" and the other guy said "halting problem" < 1294707808 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1294707820 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ZOMG ALAN TURING. MUST UPVOTE < 1294707829 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuckin pathetic :/ < 1294707833 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not worth getting worked up over! < 1294707837 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now read the axiom introduction, it's really interesting :P < 1294707848 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm only on page 13 and i think it's cool < 1294707849 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, il be back in a moment < 1294707861 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1294708155 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin: you have strayed into a deadly trap < 1294708162 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1294708191 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin: being the only active person who doesn't have me ignored >:) < 1294708196 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now watch as i force you to test my awful software < 1294708198 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mwahahahahahahaha < 1294708208 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1294708221 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, I'm busy < 1294708226 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :busy testing, yes < 1294708231 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my god, it's 381 lines < 1294708232 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how did that happen < 1294708371 0 :j-invariant!~aaaa@unaffiliated/j-invariant JOIN :#esoteric < 1294708631 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/cw06e/the_mercury_language_take_prolog_speed_it_up/c0vpmgg < 1294708708 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: tell me how ehird bashes it ok < 1294708721 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I linked to was a joke < 1294708738 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although yeah, I'm looking at Mercury < 1294708739 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: why does it say "Yes"? < 1294708767 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: it's funny because prolog impls print yes < 1294708777 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: prince xml was written in mercury, btw < 1294708793 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is a very advanced, complex program, sold for lots of money, with a small binary size < 1294708800 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.O < 1294708803 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :converts XML/HTML + CSS into PDF, basically, with very high quality < 1294708811 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://princexml.com/ < 1294708816 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, ehurd is not bashing Mercury. < 1294708817 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :proof that the language can do shit, at least < 1294708817 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehurd: no they don't? < 1294708822 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: impossible < 1294708827 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: yes they do < 1294708830 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This sort of reaction is what got me interested in Factor so long ago < 1294708834 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: well... < 1294708834 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he didn't mention it first < 1294708836 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: ok they actually don't < 1294708836 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it can't be good < 1294708838 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they print No! < 1294708840 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's what matters < 1294708843 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehurd: that's some stupid SWI prolog thing < 1294708849 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait no it's not < 1294708859 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: well i wouldn't want to write an actual program in Mercury myself. < 1294708870 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :logic programming doesn't gel with me. < 1294708887 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the fact that it has no cut or side-effects is nice :) < 1294708918 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: do you want to try out the initial cled prototype :D < 1294708934 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1294708956 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p7989249361.txt < 1294708959 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: just run as: python cled.py < 1294708968 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try not to defocus the window afterwards, it doesn't like that < 1294708986 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: most of the underlying stuff is written but not exposed as the ui... but it can manipulate integer argument lists! < 1294708995 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The tutorial could use some work < 1294709013 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: quick rundown: lilac background means it's selected. j and k move around the current active object, selecting children of it, showed by highlighting with lilac. < 1294709030 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: e descends into the currently selected object. d ascends upwards from any objects. < 1294709044 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: if you descend into an integer, then you can rewrite the integer by typing a new one and hitting or d. < 1294709066 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mutable inteegers... < 1294709067 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: to add a new element to a list (only in . -> things now (they're called examples)), press = to insert after the current element. + (shift-=) to insert before. < 1294709069 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: no < 1294709071 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: it's an editor < 1294709080 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: it's like seeing 42, pressing backspace twice, and typing a new on < 1294709080 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e < 1294709084 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an AST-based code editor < 1294709092 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: press x to delete an argument. < 1294709107 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: now, if you do =, it's "?", because it's waiting to decide what type you'll put in based on your input < 1294709109 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is called a box < 1294709116 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you d before entering a type, you'll see an ugly red ? in your program < 1294709121 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :these are call boxes, but they should be called holes. < 1294709130 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're basically just things that need objects but haven't filled in yet < 1294709136 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice it works! < 1294709139 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you try and delete the output of an example, or all the inputs, you just get a single box instead < 1294709144 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's pretty much it for now < 1294709148 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that if you ascend too far everything breaks < 1294709159 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1294709166 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "r" replaces the current selected thing with a box < 1294709171 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which will probably be useful somehow! < 1294709177 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's possible to descend too far?? < 1294709181 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: no < 1294709183 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can ascend too far < 1294709197 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you try and go above the list of examples < 1294709223 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: oh and Ctrl+S prints the current program to stdout < 1294709230 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that if you have boxes, this'll be an invalid program < 1294709258 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1294709290 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and you should be able to enter [ into a hole instead of a digit or -, to get a list < 1294709292 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that doesn't work yet :) < 1294709311 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: incidentally, the programs are pretty-printed. < 1294709326 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so for instance it outputs < 1294709327 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depth of first ~ {. 0 -> 0 < 1294709327 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : . 5 -> 0 } < 1294709328 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depth of first ~ {:. [[1 2] [3 4]] -> 2 < 1294709330 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : : [1 2] -> 1 < 1294709332 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : :. [[[1 2 3] 4] 5] -> 3 < 1294709334 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : : [[1 2 3] 4] -> 2} < 1294709336 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depth of first ~ is list?; cons; car; cdr; succ; 0 < 1294709338 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the right alignment everywhere < 1294709340 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that isn't generated by the code, but i know it does it properly :)) < 1294709346 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or wait i think i did feed it in at some point. anyway.) < 1294709424 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: i'm not going to be able to convince you to read the first volume of axiom, am i :D < 1294709459 0 :azaq23!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1294709586 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok i'll stop bugging you about it < 1294709658 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1294709716 0 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1294709857 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1294710018 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehurd: I am going to read it < 1294710025 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: \o/ < 1294710026 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :             | < 1294710026 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :             |\ < 1294710046 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: I don't think it does do type-checking at runtime... that would be lame anyway < 1294710054 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I like the idea of it more if it doesn't :P < 1294710074 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: lol, you declare a module system like you do types, and even structures (like ring) < 1294710077 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's all the same mechanism < 1294710103 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Because the argument of Matrix is required to be a Ring, Axiom will not build nonsensical types such as “matrices of input files”." < 1294710107 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb implementing matrices of input files < 1294710119 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: yep, just read, it typechecks at compile times < 1294710121 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*time < 1294710198 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*just read that it < 1294710246 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1294710310 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehurd: wow, both great < 1294710314 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's good < 1294710344 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm only on page 21... wonder how much mindbending stuff is in the next 1198 pages < 1294710345 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1294710359 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm actually page 40 < 1294710364 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but 21 in the actual book < 1294710384 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty huge book, considering this is only volume 0 < 1294710392 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder if you can buy a complete set bound in leather that takes up a whole shelf < 1294710425 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: btw here's a link, mostly for my logreading benefit since i had to find it again before: axiom-developer.org/axiom-website/bookvol0.pdf < 1294710428 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*http://axiom-developer.org/axiom-website/bookvol0.pdf < 1294710570 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: this seems to do a lot of stuff as polynomials, lol < 1294710579 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think you've accidentally reinvented this < 1294710602 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: mind you, i'd still like to see what you come up with < 1294710639 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The function factor can also be applied to complex numbers but the results aren’t quite so obvious as for factoring integer: < 1294710639 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :144 + 24*%i < 1294710639 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :144+24 i < 1294710641 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Type: Complex Integer" < 1294710645 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i smell a documentation bug < 1294710732 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Chapter XXX describes these modules in < 1294710732 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more detail." < 1294710832 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: hur hur it's funny because ex < 1294710833 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sex < 1294710839 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1294710843 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what then < 1294710852 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just complaining about the incompleteness of the documentation < 1294710875 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is that incomplete < 1294710887 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: ? < 1294710902 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: it's a book, what's the issue < 1294710907 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those XXXs are all over the place < 1294710915 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: It's a number, isn't it. < 1294710916 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :30. < 1294710919 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1294710929 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume you're talking about Axiom? < 1294710936 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm talking about Mercury < 1294710938 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1294710942 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I don't care! Yay! < 1294710950 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: should i make my own language < 1294710958 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about it < 1294711035 0 :Wamanuz!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1294711038 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: semi-dependent-typing, in that it has kinds and metakinds etc. etc. etc., and kinds are automatically derived from normal data types (with the same name and constructors), /but/ nothing crosses the : < 1294711042 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: i.e., no pi types < 1294711049 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because < 1294711052 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds easier to implement :D < 1294711060 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1294711061 0 :ehurd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1294711279 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1294711286 0 :luatre!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1294711453 0 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1294711576 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1294711880 0 :cheater99!~cheater@g228063205.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1294712646 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1294712786 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1294712858 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Formal proof of correctness is not only tedious, time-consuming, and outlandishly expensive, it's also not necessarily effective! People commit errors when attempting a formal proof. There is no fool-proof way of determining if a proof is correct or not. -- JeffGrigg < 1294712910 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh yes there is < 1294712916 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly he doesn't know what a formal proof is < 1294712982 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1294713011 0 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1294713021 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan! < 1294713034 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :morning orejan < 1294713037 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: wait what? < 1294713043 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: it says "adjunction" posted that < 1294713043 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan < 1294713050 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but adjunction clearly doesn't think that < 1294713054 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I've seen other things he posted < 1294713132 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is confused < 1294713204 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :¡coppro, oklopol < 1294713325 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe j-invariant is adjunction < 1294713515 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION needs MORE < 1294713518 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MORE LANGUAGES < 1294713519 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MORE < 1294713523 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes nuts < 1294713534 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: learn all languages at once: Oz < 1294713544 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find myself interested in the concept of dataflow programming < 1294713555 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant, is there still any work being done on Oz? < 1294713565 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Last ... thingy was 2008 < 1294713644 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" j-invariant: yeah there is basically no way you could do recursive functions (only flow control other than branching really) with a stupid search like that" <<< actually i have a good feeling about another way to do recursion stuff, although the idea is so simple i'll want to try it before saying it might work < 1294713660 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i'm usually right, like i was right about demolishing! < 1294713671 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...wait < 1294713687 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: i am incapable or ferror < 1294713724 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :demolishing/ < 1294713876 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1294713961 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monad_%28category_theory%29 < 1294713974 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1294713994 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" 21:29 cdsmithus: EvanR-work: It's pretty easy to see. Just enumerate all the 0-length strings (finitely many), then all the 1-length, then the 2-length, and so on. Every finite string has some length, and will be reached eventually" <<< this doesn't work < 1294714105 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um yes it does < 1294714114 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as long as your alphabet is finite < 1294714115 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PENIS < 1294714149 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if your alphabet is countably infinite, though... < 1294714172 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can still enumerate it. < 1294714175 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1294714195 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Googles Go language uses a quicksort, though this is considered by some to be a bug. < 1294714196 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1294714197 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lolwhat? < 1294714204 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :length + sum(ord(chr)) < n < 1294714222 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1294714222 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be one way < 1294714273 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Somewhat typical of PHPs API, there are actually thirteen different built-in array sorting functions" < 1294714315 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is that about < 1294714324 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : oklopol: i am incapable or ferror <-- so, which one is it? < 1294714338 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it's both. < 1294714428 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: quicksort has bad worst-case behavior... < 1294714443 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said "Ah" after reading the compaints < 1294714501 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, "Ah" is such a heavily information-loaded word < 1294714875 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1294714982 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" oklopol likes Python for, like, totally different reasons to everyone else." <<< the reason i like python is i used to like it, and used it so much it's soooooooooooo easy now. this is also why my programs are so retarded in syntax and how i do things locally, i actually don't think at all, i just write < 1294715021 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1294715075 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1294715173 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1294715189 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :' Why don't we get people that just learned thermodynamics and join every fucking energy discussion with "YYEAH BUT YOU CANT CREATE INFINITE FREE ENERGY SO WHY BOTHER WITH WINDMILLS?"' xD < 1294715202 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@209.59.220.33 JOIN :#esoteric < 1294715256 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, you like Python for the same reason I do! < 1294715270 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am more practiced with Python than any other language < 1294715406 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, Sgeo Java has some weird behavior. <= 7 elements it uses insertion sort and > 7 it uses quicksort < 1294715560 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: well that's not so weird < 1294715576 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's well known that simpler sorts are faster for very short lists < 1294715587 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also pure quicksort? < 1294715589 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, actually it happens to be optimal for other reasons as well < 1294715589 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no introsort? < 1294715591 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, erm no < 1294715597 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant to say "modified quicksort" < 1294715613 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the number 7 isn't arbitrary either < 1294715646 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i'd assume without evidence that the <= 7 case is also used for sorting sublists in the quicksort? < 1294715665 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yes < 1294715694 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION gets the source - hang on < 1294715766 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, < 1294715789 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java's sort is based on http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=172710 < 1294715866 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" um yes it does" " as long as your alphabet is finite" <<< also the algorithm of doing nothing works. (as long as the alphabet is empty) < 1294715889 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no bloody abstract < 1294715890 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How long until we have non-Python languages running on CPython? < 1294715908 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: BRILLIANT < 1294715920 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Atomo runs on Haskell's whatever, a bunch of stuff runs on Erlang's VM, I'm pretty sure there's Ruby stuff.... < 1294715926 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :JVM and .NET are obvious < 1294715958 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, Sgeo btw - I was talking about an array of ints < 1294715968 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses something else (I think merge sort) for objects < 1294715975 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: huh < 1294715987 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: if you'd read context from 64 hours ago, you'd've known alphabet was just specified countable < 1294716001 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, int[] array is sorted differently than Integer[] array < 1294716003 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: O KAY < 1294716054 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: i guess they are assuming comparing two elements is so much more expensive then that it affects things... < 1294716077 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there should be a nonstandard set theory: \exists set S such that S^N is finite, but S is nonempty < 1294716088 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(from nonstandard analysis, although that was probably clear) < 1294716098 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I don't remember exactly what they use to sort Objects. I __think__ its merge sort < 1294716195 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: hm. i could see why they'd want to use a different cutoff but not why they'd switch to another sort for large arrays entirely < 1294716255 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I'm no Java expert - I just spent one semester too long learning Java :-\ < 1294716287 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well me neither < 1294716299 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haven't even learned it properly < 1294716324 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know everything about java, but i still can't understand love < 1294716389 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love the java jive and it loves me < 1294716494 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate the halting problem < 1294716520 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like the least interesting piece of math ever, and everyone thinks they understand what it means on a deep philosophical level < 1294716587 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be stripped of its popularity by force < 1294716626 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan so < 1294716633 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...it is the basis of most other undecidability theorems, isn't it < 1294716635 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you catch my inverse semigroup stuff < 1294716636 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1294716640 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO < 1294716643 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION runs away < 1294716645 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it's a very important theorem, yes < 1294716681 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it shouldn't be uninvented or anything < 1294716688 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's tons of interesting stuff *on top of it* < 1294716768 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the popularity that annoys me < 1294716783 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, well right, it's not actually the *least* interesting piece of math ever, maybe :D < 1294716824 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's not a particularly interesting theorem < 1294716884 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i always hate it when someone tries to add ugly technicaly philosophy to a beautiful and pure formal mathematical theorems < 1294716894 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*technical < 1294716926 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1294716935 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1294716939 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1294716949 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ more random adjectives before the terms why not < 1294716951 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like listening to a philosophy prof talk about math < 1294716958 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's almost actually painful < 1294717000 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i proved that in an inverse semigroup (so *unique* y such that x = xyx, y = yxy), idempotents form a semilattice < 1294717062 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: i haven't actually heard, but my dad studied philosophy, and he could recite these completely meaningless statements he'd learned for class that were some sort of explanations for the achilles paradox etc < 1294717064 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1294717071 0 :Slereah!~butt@ANantes-259-1-71-195.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1294717071 0 :jix!jix@tomakin.h-ix.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1294717096 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1294717104 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe they weren't meaningless originally, but my dad butchered them completely :D < 1294717134 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1294717142 0 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1294717211 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in any case, who the fuck needs to learn about the achilles paradox... if i started studying philosophy, and i realized i was listening to a *lecture* about that retarded thing, i'd probably take a good look in the mirror, and kill everyone. < 1294717242 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: THAT'S NOT ALL THOUGH < 1294717246 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...about inverse semigroups < 1294717248 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um if you don't know any calculus and stuff then it probably _is_ somewhat mysterious < 1294717344 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, possibly; now consider an arbitrary congruence on an inverse semigroup < 1294717354 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in the usual semigroup sense) < 1294717369 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although it does turn out that the quotient is an inverse semigroup) < 1294717379 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION surrenders and goes to install Cygwin < 1294717413 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that's not actually trivial i think, you need lallement's lemma, which says for all idempotents in the image, there is an idempotent in the preimage) < 1294717426 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's call this congruence p < 1294717477 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we define x p_{min} y <=> \exists e \in E_S: xe = ye, x^-1 x p e p y^-1 y < 1294717504 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's an equivalence relation, since idempotents commute < 1294717519 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait... < 1294717542 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let that be true for xe = ye, yf = zf < 1294717555 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then i was thinking xef = yef = yfe = zfe = zef < 1294717565 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but is the second thing true < 1294717583 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well of course it is < 1294717604 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's E_S < 1294717609 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because we know y^-1 y p f, and therefore e p f, and therefore also x^-1 x p f < 1294717611 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh sorry < 1294717612 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idempotents < 1294717616 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot to define < 1294717644 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah that's an eq relation, but here's the fun thing: that's actually the minimal congruence with the same trace < 1294717665 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's some = missing up there < 1294717674 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where? < 1294717684 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x^-1 x p e p y^-1 y < 1294717687 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p is a relation < 1294717694 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1294717695 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :congruence < 1294717704 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1294717717 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION somehow started reading it as an idempotent < 1294717718 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was rho in the lecture notes, and i'm copy pasting from my head < 1294717731 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the definition anyway < 1294717746 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... Does ShowIP have some subtle bias: IPv4 addresses get shown as red and IPv6 addresses as green... :-) < 1294717746 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so for instance, consider the trivial congruence S x S < 1294717753 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let that be p < 1294717773 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then, p_{min} is actually the minimal congruence q such that S/q is a group < 1294717789 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because a quotient is a group if and only if idempotents are identified < 1294717818 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because an inverse semigroup is a group iff it has exactly one idempotent < 1294717874 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to prove that \exists e \in E_S: xe = ye, x^-1 x p e p y^-1 y is a congruence, you prove that it's a left congruence and that it's a right congruence separately, and that's actually kinda technical < 1294717883 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you have to guess the idempotent < 1294717931 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but so let x p_{min} y, and e be the proof; consider xz vs. yz and the idempotent z'ez where ' is inverse < 1294717984 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then xzz'ez = xezz'z = xez = yez = yezz'z = yzz'ez < 1294717992 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaaaaaand umm < 1294717995 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: i don't think i'm capable of concentrating enough to follow this stuff < 1294718003 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright :P < 1294718007 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you get the actual theorem tho? < 1294718022 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that's really nice even if i skip the proof < 1294718052 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that for each congruence p, there's minimal p_{min} with the same trace, with that definition i gave < 1294718056 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck < 1294718061 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trace = what idempotents are identified < 1294718073 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not very organized :\ < 1294718088 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's hard too because i don't have an intuition for how "inverses" are supposed to behave < 1294718135 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm wait is x^-1 x = x x^-1 always? < 1294718146 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like in groups, except that there are multiple 1-elements. < 1294718151 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is my intuition < 1294718154 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1294718168 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x^-1 x = x x^-1 <<< no, but both are idempotent < 1294718205 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idempotents commute, so often you just care about the fact you have *some* idempotent somewhere < 1294718221 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should give examples maybe, have none... < 1294718339 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it took me quite a while to get a grip on how inverse semigroups work < 1294718374 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i don't exactly blame you if you have no ability to follow the stuff, mainly i wanted to advertise properties of inv semigroups... :D < 1294718409 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like that p_{min} thing, which is unique to inv semigroups in the semigroup monoid group etc family < 1294718416 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(afaik!) < 1294718436 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fun use for ShowIP. Visit all sorts of IPv6-related sites and see which ones support IPv6. < 1294718440 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(erm i mean of course it's true for groups......) < 1294718445 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but yeah) < 1294718488 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright my alarm clock is tickling. < 1294718567 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: ooh, i guess we're just a week or two from exhaustion now? < 1294718591 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or has it already happened < 1294718603 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that APNIC allocation thing) < 1294718614 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :algebra is so damn sexy really, if i was any good at it, i might even consider doing my phd out of that stuff < 1294718648 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: tickling alarm clock? < 1294718678 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i mean i'm awesome at it but i don't really have an intuition on what constitutes as interesting new research < 1294718689 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not yet... Projections are turn of the month... But APNIC can justify allocation at any moment. < 1294718722 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, i suppose you should always try to follow the road of *actually solving problems* < 1294718735 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION imagines bosses at APNIC headquarters sitting rubbing their hands and cackling maniacally < 1294718743 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: tickling sounds like it could mean some sort of beeping imo < 1294718755 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i already once used that word wrong in your presense < 1294718764 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presence < 1294718771 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: well there are already vibrating cell phones... < 1294718788 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1294718797 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a tickling alarm clock would sort of have to be _in_ your bed... < 1294718811 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my bed is too full of stuff to fit an alarm clock < 1294718814 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well or it could be a wrist watch i guess < 1294718824 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: do you have room to sleep :D < 1294718848 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, almost! < 1294718857 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should consider cleaning up this place at some poitn < 1294718859 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*point < 1294718865 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaa < 1294718869 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't remind me < 1294718897 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's been about a week and i haven't moved any of the stuff, and since i moved from a twice bigger apartment, there's suddenly huge amounts of stuff :D < 1294718913 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1294719016 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :these student apartments are so crappy i'm actually considering applying for a better one, mainly due to the facts i'm never going to be able to eat food if i have to prepare it in the presence of other people, everyone hears me watch porn at night and the fact the refrigerator wakes me up at 4 am ever morning < 1294719050 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the last one is actually not annoying at all, i just wanted to mention it :D < 1294719065 0 :azaq23!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1294719116 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a place full of students is like the worst place to have thin walls, at 4 am on a wednesday, it's not rare to feel someone suddently yell "WHAT THE FUCK MAN?!?" < 1294719124 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1294719397 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It appears most dedicated IPv6 sites have IPv6 addresses... But some don't. < 1294719586 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Last entry on IANA allocations for IPv6: 2006-10-03... That's over 4 years ago... < 1294720057 0 :hagb4rd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1294720697 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1294721095 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whee... Mac OS X doesn't support DHCPv6 (according to these slides). < 1294721153 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haha... Blank slide titled "Response from Users". < 1294721468 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@209.59.220.33 JOIN :#esoteric < 1294723026 0 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1294723375 0 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-d9329152.pool.mediaWays.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1294723673 0 :hagb4rd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CGIii_eTOk < 1294723681 0 :hagb4rd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::'/ < 1294723832 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1294723899 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1294723909 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1294724234 0 :hagb4rd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3bkmD-70e4&feature=related&fmt=18 < 1294724308 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All C#-like languages bore me < 1294724381 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION says that as he listens to a song he STRONGLY associates with Vala < 1294724408 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders why Sgeo adds the # < 1294724435 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because most of these highly marketed languages are closer to C# than C? < 1294724445 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although yeah, C-like bores me too < 1294724458 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not "highly" I guess. Hmm < 1294724493 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1294724507 0 :hagb4rd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it might be interesting experimenting with words, rhymes & rhytm.. but language becomes indefferent if u really want to say something < 1294724561 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION was not aware that C# had spawned its own subfamily < 1294724639 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most dedicated IPv6 sites support IPv6... But seems that many don't. :-) < 1294724667 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh. We really need to get on the ball and start supporting IPv7. < 1294725743 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shortest IPv6 address I have seen on public webserver: 11 characters. Longest: 39 (which is the longest possible). < 1294725849 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe the shortest possible valid IPv6 unicast address would be 9 characters... < 1294725909 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, actually, nope... 7. < 1294725955 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1294726057 0 :cal153!~cal@c-24-4-207-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1294726076 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2003::1 is at least an allocated address. < 1294726455 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll locate _your_ address < 1294726566 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What happens when we run out of MAC addresses? < 1294726716 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only 2^6 organizations can make network cards? < 1294726744 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :64 < 1294726751 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :64 manufacturers < 1294726756 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Past that, we run out < 1294726991 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2^6? < 1294726993 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where'd you learn to math < 1294726997 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :6 HEX digits < 1294727029 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mac addresses are 12 hex digits; first half is manufacturer, second is device < 1294727092 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 16^6 < 1294727093 0 :lambdabot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 16777216 < 1294727143 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :onoez. each manufacturer can only make 16m nics! < 1294727155 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, they can get another id < 1294727158 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1294727160 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe they give them out in ranges < 1294727162 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION shrugs < 1294727166 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why it's stupid to break it up that way < 1294727175 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gotta break it up somehow < 1294727177 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16^12 < 1294727181 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 16^12 < 1294727182 0 :lambdabot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 281474976710656 < 1294727189 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :better to hand out multiple ids to a manufacturer than give too many device ids to one and nobody can use them < 1294727298 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not just hand out ranges of MACs on a need-some-more basis and just have a public database if you really need the manufacturer? < 1294727303 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it works for IPs... < 1294727316 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno, i just sorta guessed it was something like that < 1294727335 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.coffer.com/mac_find/ < 1294727338 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh how about that < 1294727347 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first google result for "mac address manufacturer database" ;P < 1294727348 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1294727371 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://standards.ieee.org/cgi-bin/ouisearch < 1294727376 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also that < 1294727388 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does look like an as needed basis < 1294727393 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :intel has a bunch but they aren't consecutive < 1294727571 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oops < 1294727579 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait < 1294727583 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3com cards used to be 00:01:02, but now they have a billion (for billion = 47) vendor IDs. < 1294727597 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia says 8 bits for the manufacturer < 1294727621 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are some flags in the upper bits. < 1294727626 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least two. < 1294727634 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh wow, I misread the image < 1294727699 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybes I needs sleep < 1294727700 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s < 1294727904 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just don't understand why they need to assign them in 16m chunks < 1294727915 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that i care all that much < 1294727966 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assigning in smaller units would mean more processing of "gimme more" forms. < 1294727986 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha < 1294727993 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the assumption is that if you're manufacturing chips, you're going to do a lot of them. < 1294728070 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder how many vendors go out of business or stop manufacturing right in the middle of a block. or right at the beginning of one even < 1294728247 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They've only allocated 14503 OUIs out of the 4194304 possible, so we don't seem to be running out just ye. < 1294728257 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ye\./yet./ < 1294728327 0 :azaq23!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1294728333 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is Rexx, and why is it so low on popularity charts < 1294728337 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Often lower than COBOL < 1294729288 0 :Zuu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1294729294 0 :Zuu!zuu@unaffiliated/zuu JOIN :#esoteric < 1294729645 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are quite many Rexx-using Amigists, due to ARexx; but maybe that does not count. < 1294729681 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not-so-uncommon as an embedded scripting language sort of thing. < 1294729860 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you could even call ARexx the Amiga AppleScript, except that sounds pretty silly. < 1294729971 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I'd like to mention that I'm not an Amiga user, but some of my best friends are (er... were), and there is nothing "wrong" or "shameful" about being one, despite what some people say. < 1294730501 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :morning < 1294730523 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or should I say night. < 1294730564 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Woke up due to electric saw. Which was used due to the people here to repair the leaking water from the roof. Oh well. < 1294730582 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is already morning-time. < 1294730618 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it isn't morning until 09:00 IMO < 1294730632 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and even then only if it has to be. < 1294730656 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I was woken up by this sound at 07:33 < 1294730662 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd classify anything before 04:00 as night, after 06:00 as morning, and the part in the middle is a bit of a grey area. < 1294730669 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was woken up by an alarm clock at 07:10. < 1294730678 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, briefly, anyway. < 1294730691 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It didn't quite "take", and then I actually got up at 08:10 or so. < 1294730694 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I prefer morning to start at 10:00 and end at 11:30 < 1294730714 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11:30-12:00 is "förmiddag" (can't remember English word for that atm) < 1294730730 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(wait, does English have afternoon but not prenoon?) < 1294730799 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They sort-of have a "forenoon", but I think that's a bit rare. < 1294730839 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also WordNet conflates that with "morning". < 1294730846 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1. morning, morn, morning time, forenoon -- (the time period between dawn and noon; "I spent the morning running errands") < 1294730861 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OED lists it separately, but still as "The portion of the day before noon". < 1294730913 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think they quite separate morgon/förmiddag like we do. (That's fi: aamu/aamupäivä.) < 1294731040 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even going by the dawn-based definition of "morning", it already is that here: sunrise today is at 09:15, and it's about 09:30 now. < 1294731177 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you pesky southerners and your early mornings < 1294731932 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intriguing: Trondheim (suggested by grep) is at 63.43N (10.395E) while Lieksa (the place I'm sort-of from except not quite) is at 63.32N (30.025E); that's only a 12 kilometre difference in the North-South direction. < 1294732081 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh i guess it's just the timezone difference then < 1294732117 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "from" was also in sort of an "originally from" sense; currently I'm in Helsinki, which is quite a lot southener. < 1294732141 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or more accurately Espoo, I guess. < 1294732147 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1294732241 0 :drakhan!~drakhan@c34-243.icpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1294732260 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :60.1868N 24.8218E is the location of this university building; that's 361 km southwards. (And then take a right turn and go east for a bit.) < 1294732273 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That's the 270-degree right turn.) < 1294732295 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...RIGHT < 1294732307 0 :drakhan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1294732356 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I can't seem to tell my left hand from my right.) < 1294732377 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WELL GET A TATOO THEN < 1294732382 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*TATTOO < 1294732392 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A knuckle tattoo, with the left hand saying LEFT and the other one RGHT. < 1294732403 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1294732429 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i call rule 34 on that, or something < 1294732462 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no google, i _am_ trying to search for rght < 1294732464 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: http://www.knuckletattoos.com/gunCache/t_LEFTRGHT.jpg -- it has the benefit of being also wrongly oriented! < 1294732492 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh < 1294732509 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's obviously photoshopped < 1294732523 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes, it's a generator that makes those images. I just entered LEFTRGHT in it. < 1294732547 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1294732607 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sadly google seems to fail me < 1294732799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1294732800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1294733675 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-4-27.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1294733777 0 :Wamanuz!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1294734636 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1294734826 0 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@cl-394.sto-01.se.sixxs.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1294734830 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1294734831 0 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1294734969 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-243-153.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1294735713 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1294735762 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1294736307 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ilua < 1294737536 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1294739425 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1294741190 0 :j-invariant!~aaaa@unaffiliated/j-invariant JOIN :#esoteric < 1294742917 0 :Wamanuz!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1294744131 0 :mycroftiv!~ircguy@h69-128-47-242.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1294744466 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1294744862 0 :drakhan!~drakhan@c34-243.icpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1294745351 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181132190.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1294747272 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1294747358 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1294747589 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1294747672 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: swatted to death < 1294747926 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1294748004 0 :cheater00!~cheater@e181133218.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1294748112 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1294748710 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, first time ever that a spam message went through all the other filters server-side and was caught by my email client < 1294750316 0 :cheater00!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should cherish this moment < 1294750323 0 :cheater00!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's obvious it was DESTINED to be < 1294750332 0 :cheater00!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you should read it and memorize it < 1294751841 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1294751942 0 :cheater-!~cheater@e181134242.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1294751974 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1294752118 0 :cheater00!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1294754055 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1294754151 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1294754207 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is Clean worth learning? < 1294754220 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's just haskell without monads? < 1294754366 0 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1294754447 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION isn't particularly interested in Clean being faster < 1294754457 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are some things that I can imagine being interested in < 1294754468 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other than the language itself < 1294754473 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1294754555 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say, things like a more.. convenient environment to work with, etc < 1294754578 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Better module system or whatnot also, although I guess that's a language thing < 1294754663 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION gets bored and wanders off < 1294754984 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I think that there is a market for books with fewer pages; there < 1294754984 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are many people out there that need to learn computer science, but do < 1294754984 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not appreciate reading" < 1294754987 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck you < 1294755036 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...suddenly I think this Preface is meant in jest < 1294755254 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1294755330 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: LOL < 1294755350 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1294755559 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grr < 1294755573 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Book says to use the Everything environment. There is no Everything environment. < 1294755658 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh < 1294755771 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1294756454 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1294756553 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1294756660 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1294756675 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1294757979 0 :Wamanuz!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1294758044 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001f5b00390f-CM001e6b2335dc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1294758056 0 :azaq23!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1294758218 0 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@17.101.89.205 JOIN :#esoteric < 1294758219 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1294758219 0 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1294758391 0 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1294758572 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I think it's just haskell without monads? < 1294758593 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc clean is complete capable of monads, it's just that it doesn't need them for IO < 1294758597 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*completely < 1294758635 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using uniqueness typing instead to thread the "world" through computations. < 1294758693 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it interesting enough to play with? < 1294758698 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And fall in love with? >.> < 1294758706 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this allows many computations to be performed with in-place updating, but yet be conceptually pure < 1294758734 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I like that thought < 1294758742 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I want more < 1294758746 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Better module system etc < 1294758770 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't recall what module system clean has < 1294758902 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-5-52.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1294758972 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It is also available with limited input/output capabilities and without the "Dynamics" feature for Apple Macintosh, Solaris and Linux." < 1294758973 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grah < 1294758975 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sucks < 1294759095 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like things that have a theme naming thing going on. Like the "awesome" window manager, which has a standard scripting library called "awful", a theming thing called "beautiful", widget thingies called "wicked", "obvious" and "vicious", a notification thingie called "naughty", and so on. < 1294759109 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so do you love Newspeak? < 1294759113 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(To clarify: I don't like the WM that much, just the naming.) < 1294759129 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brazil, Hopscotch, MiniTest, etc < 1294759156 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Not actually sure if Hopscotch fits thematically] < 1294759202 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why didn't shutup bother me? < 1294759204 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Sgeo < 1294759207 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Newspeak < 1294759210 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There we go < 1294759250 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1294759273 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't figure out any examples of actual things that I'd like that'd have a clear naming theme right now, it's just the idea I like. < 1294759308 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, Chicken Scheme extensions are called "eggs", and I think it has some other related terms in use. < 1294759338 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1294759497 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-224-158.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1294759601 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, the object system (one of them) was called COOPS. < 1294759771 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of them? < 1294759775 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's several? < 1294760275 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :COOPS is one of those eggs < 1294760435 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are approximately 7 different object systems in the egg repository. < 1294760489 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://wiki.call-cc.org/chicken-projects/egg-index-4.html#oop < 1294760535 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are they all incompatible? < 1294760539 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION guesses so < 1294760542 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sucks < 1294760546 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1294760666 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're made by different people for different purposes, I don't see why (or even how, except kludgily) they should be compatible. < 1294760688 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Procedures can have no more than 4096 arguments." --Mozart/Oz limitation < 1294760691 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is not worried < 1294760856 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1294760863 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Procedures can have no more than 4096 arguments." --Mozart/Oz limitation < 1294760870 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Procedures can have no more than 1 arguments." --Haskell limitation < 1294760947 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1294760960 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION plays some minecraft < 1294760989 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Look, this isn't an argument." --Monty Python < 1294761019 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love that one < 1294761305 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION mildly deja vus < 1294761484 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1294761484 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1294761484 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1294761964 0 :cheater-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAPPY 31 DAY < 1294761978 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WAT < 1294761987 0 :cheater-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat wat < 1294761993 0 :cheater-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's 11111 < 1294762002 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O DAT < 1294762008 0 :cheater-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YA DAT < 1294762117 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate it when people do that. < 1294762141 0 :cheater-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat wat in the butt < 1294762425 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Act like interpreting the date in binary means something. < 1294762475 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, its just for fun - get over it < 1294762481 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its like pi day < 1294762520 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It's just for fun" can't be used as an all-purpose justification. < 1294762524 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's still stupid. < 1294762578 0 :hagb4rd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :justified with empty words, the party gets better and better < 1294762628 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, 11/11/11 11:11:11 and a ninth of a second will be the time for partying. < 1294762638 0 :hagb4rd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION went away alone, with nothing left but faith < 1294762673 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Regrettably, it's 11 seconds after the Remembrance Day two-minute silence starts, so partying may be frowned upon. < 1294763553 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1294763557 0 :Behold!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1294763560 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, yeah the only reason to party is when you get a power of two in unix time ;) < 1294763580 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RealPlayer still exists? < 1294763790 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1294764368 0 :Behold!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :BeholdMyGlory < 1294764885 0 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1294764889 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1294765403 0 :cal153!~cal@70.36.237.178 JOIN :#esoteric < 1294765596 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:30:43 j-invariant: it says "adjunction" posted that < 1294765600 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin: I think j-invariant is adjunction < 1294765696 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: excuse me, I believe your information to be inaccurate < 1294765699 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: Java uses timsort < 1294765711 0 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1294765716 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1294765717 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It operates by finding runs in the data. Descending runs are reversed. Then, the size of the run is checked against the minimum run size for that particular array size. The minimum run size depends on the size of the array. For an array of fewer than 64 elements, the minimum run size is the entire array, making timsort essentially a fancy insertion sort in that case. For larger arrays, a number between 32 and 64 is chosen so that the < 1294765717 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :size of the array divided by the minimum run size is equal to, or slightly smaller than, a power of two. The final algorithm for it simply takes the most significant six bits of the size of the array, adds one if any of the remaining bits are set, and uses that as the minimum run size. If the run is too small, insertion sort is used to increase the run until it's the minimum size. The runs are then merged together via merge sort to pr < 1294765717 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oduce the final sorted array.[3] < 1294765721 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: not quickxort-based < 1294765723 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*quicksort < 1294765731 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: well ok this is only used since Java 7 < 1294765733 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still < 1294765756 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:18:10 How long until we have non-Python languages running on CPython? < 1294765760 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: um a few things do that < 1294765762 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: that's what I think too (I think I wrote it after that) < 1294765763 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: for instance Clue is going to < 1294765767 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still odd that he posted that < 1294765770 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin: by "I think", I mean 99% sure < 1294765778 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin: also, I think he was quoting it as mockery ... < 1294765785 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay < 1294765788 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wasn't very obviously a quote < 1294765798 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except that given his other posting history, it was pretty obviously not what he thought < 1294765815 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, huh. Are there any languages that don't have other languages running on their... system? < 1294765833 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Malbolge. < 1294765866 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin: I think j-invariant was trying to see how many points it'd get :) < 1294765872 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who knows < 1294765877 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, /me continues logreading < 1294765882 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's one thing you zany #haskellers can't do! < 1294765886 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have nice, digestible 100k logs < 1294765908 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:19:18 oerjan, Sgeo btw - I was talking about an array of ints < 1294765910 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1294765912 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorting an array of ints < 1294765917 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can do that in O(n) < 1294766021 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:21:17 there should be a nonstandard set theory: \exists set S such that S^N is finite, but S is nonempty < 1294766021 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:21:28 (from nonstandard analysis, although that was probably clear) < 1294766028 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: omg that would be amazing... invent that < 1294766345 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:38:28 All C#-like languages bore me < 1294766345 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:39:41 * Sgeo says that as he listens to a song he STRONGLY associates with Vala < 1294766345 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how the fuck do you associate a song with Vala < 1294766402 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" Phantom_Hoover, yeah the only reason to party is when you get a power of two in unix time ;)" <<< ah, all ones! < 1294766413 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :along the lines of "11/11/11 11:11:11 and a ninth of a second" < 1294766438 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ars < 1294766451 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, oh, all ones too. Which is just power of two - 1 < 1294766464 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, by being extremely obsessed with a song and having it on loop at the same time as reading about the language < 1294766480 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: nutcase :D < 1294766565 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sane cut < 1294766622 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: a power of two has more 1's than power of two - 1 < 1294766657 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, no < 1294766664 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1294766664 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sea cont < 1294766666 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sea cunt < 1294766668 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the ones are WORTH more! < 1294766677 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: so did you hear, cled is working < 1294766679 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it has infinitely many doesn't it? < 1294766679 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorta < 1294766692 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1294766698 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1111.111111111... < 1294766703 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1294766705 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1294766706 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: btw re first-class functions < 1294766712 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why i explained: 'along the lines of "11/11/11 11:11:11 and a ninth of a second"' < 1294766715 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: you should NOT add lambda syntax < 1294766725 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it doesn't count unless you convert it to graycode first < 1294766725 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: in e.g. map, the lambda parameter must be an existing clue function :) < 1294766726 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: oh i was not gonna, don't worry < 1294766738 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only lambada syntax < 1294766753 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: that was the original plan, however, how about single-example lambdas? < 1294766754 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like < 1294766777 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: here's how i'd do it < 1294766777 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :map ~ {. [] -> [] } map ~ {:. [1 2 3] -> [2 3 4] : [2 3] -> [3 4] } map ~ []; car; cdr < 1294766783 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously can be any clue function you want < 1294766786 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or like xxx ~ function 1; function 2; helper object; { . 1 -> 2. 3 -> 6 }; < 1294766799 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: hmm i don't see why you'd need that? < 1294766805 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clue is good at inferring functions, after all < 1294766856 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a random idea, what you said is pretty much exactly what i was thinking < 1294766868 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's with more of the < >? < 1294766869 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I timsort is an interesting sort - but I don't believe Java uses it - at least not in the current implementation < 1294766875 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: because names can have spaces < 1294766889 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Timsort is a hybrid sorting algorithm derived from merge sort and insertion sort, designed to perform well on many kinds of real-world data. It was invented by Tim Peters in 2002 for use in the Python programming language, and has been Python's standard sorting algorithm since version 2.3. It is now also used to sort arrays in Java SE 7,[1] and on the Android platform.[2] < 1294766891 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: ^ < 1294766895 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as of Java 7 < 1294766897 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you probably want a separator that's not whitespace < 1294766909 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but because whitespace is the separator, the only non-ugly way is to enclose the function name < 1294766912 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: <> is nice because it used to have another meaning, so it breaks backwards compat! < 1294766918 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: {} and [] are kinda taken, and () is ugly < 1294766920 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why I picked <>s < 1294766924 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What was the other meaning? < 1294766937 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh < 1294766938 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't ask < 1294766938 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1294766945 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too late < 1294766953 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"just this thing having to do with the hardest thing to explain about clue" < 1294766960 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not very hard really < 1294766965 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just can't manage to do it succinctly < 1294766977 0 :Behold!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1294766996 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all functions are switch statement + expression with possibly recursion; <> was used to give a function used in the switch statement < 1294767005 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, that's inferred completely, as well < 1294767005 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah and you always used < 1294767008 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bcuz it was made of retard < 1294767011 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(technical term) < 1294767031 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1294767121 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott < 1294767144 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant < 1294767154 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom_%28computer_algebra_system%29 < 1294767161 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :verily < 1294767190 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes? :P < 1294767191 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol ~ {. {. <{. 6 -> 7} ~ succ> 3 -> 5 } 4 -> 8 } < 1294767204 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1294767205 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: xD i... how should i say this... no :P < 1294767210 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you missed a <> < 1294767212 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a hint list < 1294767215 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, i suppose you need explicit apply < 1294767222 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: but um yeah why compromise purity like that ... < 1294767222 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom_%28computer_algebra_system%29 ← what about it? < 1294767224 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because not having it would be retarded < 1294767227 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: it's not like adding another function is much work < 1294767232 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: i was talking about it w/ j-invariant yesterday < 1294767236 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: also, "explicit apply"? < 1294767240 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean like, apply being a function? < 1294767243 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1294767246 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need that in the bag < 1294767261 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: why not cons(#0(car(#1)) @(cdr(#1))) < 1294767271 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of thing < 1294767272 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, did the conversation consist of " It sucks. I agree."? < 1294767273 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without apply < 1294767278 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: no, i think it's cool < 1294767286 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i think it might be what j-invariant was inventing mostly < 1294767288 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: because objects shouldn't have operations attached to them < 1294767291 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :functions are no exception < 1294767291 0 :doraemon!60e8bcea@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.232.188.234 JOIN :#esoteric < 1294767300 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1294767303 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: surely, then, you should have to include apply in every list < 1294767312 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to call all the other functions in the bag < 1294767313 0 :doraemon!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Guest32802 < 1294767325 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(done by using apply in an infinite regress, naturally) < 1294767335 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: that is true, but see in the grand scheme of things, apply would be good, since in clue 2.0, "function tools" would be included by default < 1294767344 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like list tools would be if you were using alist < 1294767346 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*a list < 1294767346 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: fair enough then. < 1294767358 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: i hope clue 2 doesn't break cled too horribly. < 1294767366 0 :Guest32802!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi everyone, I have a question regarding a bf converter. I'd like to write a converter that converts a given string to bf, with one small catch: I < 1294767376 0 :Guest32802!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would like it to optimize the output as much as possible < 1294767383 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: and while apply would be in all your millions of higher-order functions, it's still possible you sometimes don't want to be able to apply < 1294767385 0 :Guest32802!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. the shortest string of bf that it can produce < 1294767390 0 :Guest32802!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :doraemon___ < 1294767401 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might say just want to compose! wait... < 1294767405 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doraemon___: It is not generally possible to prove that a string is the shortest possible. < 1294767413 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doraemon___: that is provably impossible to do < 1294767416 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a general algorithm < 1294767417 0 :doraemon___!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: well yeah, but I mean < 1294767417 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SORRY :) < 1294767428 0 :doraemon___!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like to produce a short, optimized string < 1294767434 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure but you can't do the _shortest_ < 1294767436 0 :doraemon___!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not necessarily the shortest possible :) < 1294767442 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's what you said :P < 1294767443 0 :doraemon___!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I know... < 1294767444 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: could've been an answer to me as well D: < 1294767447 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bf_txtgen Hello, doraemon___! < 1294767448 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" doraemon___: that is provably impossible to do" < 1294767455 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :163 +++++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++++>+++++++>+++<<<<-]>---.>----.>+++..+++.>-.------------.<<-.>.+++.-----------------.<+.++++++++.++.-.>--...>+.-----------------------. [164] < 1294767472 0 :doraemon___!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's decent < 1294767473 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :txtgen is not a very good example, it's all yucky and non-deterministic < 1294767484 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i think all the best generators are like private projects that havent been released < 1294767485 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*haven't < 1294767485 0 :doraemon___!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well it's better than the dumb way < 1294767490 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've heard people doing them in here < 1294767493 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doraemon___: it uses a genetic algorithm < 1294767495 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of < 1294767497 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some kind :D < 1294767500 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol lynches me now < 1294767504 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's prolly just hill-climbing < 1294767504 0 :doraemon___!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah I was thinking about doing that < 1294767507 0 :doraemon___!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Using a GA < 1294767507 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't ther ea very good way < 1294767512 0 :doraemon___!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To find short possibilities < 1294767514 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gzip < 1294767523 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it's some sort of hill-climbing < 1294767533 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for very small inputs direct: for larger inputs ASCII: for HUGE inputs gzip < 1294767536 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i read it once, but don't really remember, it definitely wasn't genetic tho < 1294767547 0 :doraemon___!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My friend was using a method of predicting all the possibilities within a range, like 1...n < 1294767552 0 :doraemon___!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it isn't a very good way < 1294767555 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doraemon___: bf_txtgen was was written by calamari. See http://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/index.cgi/file/tip/multibot_cmds/interps/bf_txtgen < 1294767560 0 :doraemon___!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was only 16 chars shorter than my brute force method < 1294767561 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use genetic algorithms to evolve a bf text generator >:D < 1294767562 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SO META < 1294767569 0 :doraemon___!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh thanks Gregor :) < 1294767588 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing EgoBot does is secret :P < 1294767595 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And most of it isn't mine either) < 1294767606 0 :doraemon___!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that's probably one of the best methods in your opinion? < 1294767620 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the best one you can get your hands on right now. < 1294767621 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably not :P < 1294767621 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah Gregor can't really do anything right so he gets other people to write his code and takes all the credit < 1294767623 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yeah. < 1294767624 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no doubt that there are better ones. < 1294767627 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Pretty much. < 1294767630 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and sometimes write 1000 page books about this < 1294767632 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: he tried to do that with me and cunionfs < 1294767634 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all hype < 1294767635 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: It's worked pretty well so far. < 1294767639 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suspect it's because he's a jew (<-- NOTE THIS IS NOT SERIOUS) < 1294767649 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I conjecture that it's possible to find the optimal brainfuck program for all strings of length below 256 < 1294767669 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: It is in fact /possible/ to find the optimal brainfuck program for any given string, it's just extremely expensive. < 1294767679 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: hey we're actually inching towards a place where I can yell halting problem legitiamtely < 1294767682 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*legitimately < 1294767683 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: not really < 1294767688 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: well, with human ingenuity, yes < 1294767696 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ? not really < 1294767698 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: did you know the busy beaver function hasn't been solved for was it 5 or 6 states and binary? < 1294767701 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for tm's < 1294767703 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Brute-force try every BF program from shortest to longest until you find one that prints the program. QED. < 1294767704 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: yeah < 1294767705 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not dumb-mechanically, because that program that runs for 100 years might then print out the right string < 1294767707 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: dude... < 1294767713 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: what about ones that don't halt < 1294767720 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: prove they don't halt < 1294767721 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: that works, if you have infinite time to run them all concurrently < 1294767725 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: right, so with human ingenuity < 1294767727 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: okay, just that yours seemed kind of astronomical compared to that < 1294767733 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: or an automated prover < 1294767735 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor's is stupid though :P < 1294767748 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: that could work. maybe. for 64 char strings, sure, not 256. i'd wager. < 1294767766 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I don't see a direct connection with busy beaver? < 1294767768 0 :doraemon___!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I think you need an Oracle to solve the halting problem :p < 1294767781 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" j-invariant: It is in fact /possible/ to find the optimal brainfuck program for any given string, it's just extremely expensive." <<< there's not even a semialgorithm for this < 1294767798 0 :doraemon___!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bf_txtgen Hello, world! < 1294767801 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :126 ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++++.------------.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>. [958] < 1294767827 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doraemon___: damn you larry ellison < 1294767879 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doraemon? < 1294767906 0 :doraemon___!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes? < 1294767911 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: there's none, but i doubt there's an essential difference in the hardness of the problem, 256 needs a pretty long bf program, and i doubt you can say *anything* about certain bf programs of really short length < 1294767920 0 :doraemon___!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do I know you, Sgeo? < 1294767934 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: which ones? < 1294767943 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you ever played a game.. it was a web-based game < 1294767947 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: the ones that happen to be hard < 1294767957 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1294767959 0 :doraemon___!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've played web-based games... sure < 1294767961 0 :doraemon___!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which one, Sgeo? < 1294767964 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gee i can't imagine the name Doraemon being popular < 1294767964 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With battles, etc. Someone with your name (I think) was building a superweapon < 1294767968 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember the name < 1294767969 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1294767971 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CAN'T IMAGINE < 1294767975 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the shortest difficult brainfuck program I can think of is collatz < 1294767977 0 :doraemon___!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, I'm not sure Sgeo < 1294767980 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spacefed I think? < 1294767985 0 :doraemon___!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Might have been a different me ;p < 1294768006 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no that doesn't work < 1294768014 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Space Fed Galactic Conquest < 1294768027 0 :doraemon___!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, yeah I don't think that was me < 1294768028 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION reappears. < 1294768036 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, darn < 1294768036 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: erm, you can implement any tm in bf with a constant size increment can't you? < 1294768040 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1294768042 0 :doraemon___!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, Sgeo :( < 1294768067 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the shortest brainfuck program that we don't know whether it terminates or not? < 1294768067 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lawl < 1294768075 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: ,[.,] < 1294768078 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ DEEP PHILOSOPHY SHIET < 1294768078 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say keep state in n first bits in every second bit < 1294768081 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't use inputs < 1294768085 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DARN < 1294768091 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and move that around < 1294768091 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :collatz i would guess < 1294768093 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or some TM < 1294768100 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm what, how small is this collatz? < 1294768106 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/collatz.b < 1294768106 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1294768109 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should make an automated prover for halting of brainfuck, then use that to kill of boring candidates < 1294768110 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it takes decimals on input < 1294768112 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :remove the output < 1294768112 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would have been in 2003 < 1294768115 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION shrugs < 1294768116 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and have it just iterate through every natural < 1294768122 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1294768125 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should be fairly short < 1294768128 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably shorter than what's there even < 1294768157 0 :doraemon___!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: funny how 2003 seems like such a long time ago now... < 1294768180 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that collatz only long because of parsing input < 1294768182 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1294768193 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't be more than a few characters, division isn't very hard < 1294768253 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but anyway, i find it unlikely that the shortest program your halting prover gets stuck in makes any sense at all, it's just a program with a random characters that happens to not have trivial behavior. < 1294768301 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-a < 1294768330 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bf might certainly be especially slow at hitting something like that < 1294768359 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah if you made it just iterate, not print, and not take input, that collatz could be tiny < 1294768385 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll make an arbitrary conjecture: bf programs are easy to prove up up to size 38 < 1294768399 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :place your bets now < 1294768405 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Define "easy" < 1294768407 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ask definitions later < 1294768410 0 :hagb4rd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1294768421 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: how do you define SIZE < 1294768423 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn, was too slow < 1294768427 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you define TO < 1294768434 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you define "38"? < 1294768440 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you define "I'll"? < 1294768443 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: so can we have N-input, N-output functions < 1294768445 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: the obvious way, if there's a dispute, i'm right, you're wrong < 1294768446 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: specifically, 0-input ones < 1294768447 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 0-output ones < 1294768455 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i get the moneys < 1294768474 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: what, in these bf programs? < 1294768480 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1294768483 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in klew < 1294768496 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i totally didn't see that coming < 1294768520 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CGIii_eTOk <<< why exactly did i have this retarded shit in my browser? < 1294768538 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i don't like how 0 io looks like, syntactically < 1294768544 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise i'd have no potato with them < 1294768551 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: sure, but it makes cled so less ugly... < 1294768554 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :holes are like < 1294768556 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the biggest bug ever < 1294768562 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe they are allowed in the language, but you can't actually write any? < 1294768565 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can have the ast in an invalid state, and all it does is sit there looking slightly ugly < 1294768568 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: xD < 1294768577 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: well let's put it this way < 1294768583 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: you're going to add N+1-output functions right? < 1294768584 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1294768589 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know who thinks 0 isn't a natural? < 1294768590 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's right < 1294768591 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stupid people < 1294768594 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and do you know what set you'd be using < 1294768596 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :N\{0} < 1294768597 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :parameters < 1294768598 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now < 1294768599 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is that oklopol < 1294768601 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is < 1294768603 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HIDEOUS < 1294768605 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you, if you do that, are hideous < 1294768607 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't be hideous < 1294768609 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :N-io < 1294768613 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i am hideous, you haven't seen me < 1294768619 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes i have < 1294768621 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you were on the map thing < 1294768627 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...oh right < 1294768630 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1294768651 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i was pretty sexy in that pic so i guess i have nothing more to say < 1294768661 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what you have to say is < 1294768664 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK DUDE N-INPUT-OUTPUT BITCH < 1294768677 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no syntax for them must ever exist. < 1294768686 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: um you're adding syntax for N-output < 1294768688 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely < 1294768696 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: c'moooon :( < 1294768706 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, just whitespace separate the outputs < 1294768710 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1294768716 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol ~ {. -> } < 1294768721 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that's ugly < 1294768721 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: it's for the greater good dude < 1294768723 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but hmm < 1294768724 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it is < 1294768724 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why < 1294768726 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should never write it < 1294768730 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you could also write clue code like this < 1294768737 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MAYBE A SEPARATE SYNTAX FOR WRITING ZERO ARG FUNCTIONS < 1294768741 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this_Is_A_Name~{: . hello->[1 2 < 1294768744 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1294768745 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3]} this_Is_A_Name < 1294768748 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~ x;y; z < 1294768750 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is hideous < 1294768752 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you don't do that < 1294768757 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you're a good clueist < 1294768764 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181128178.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1294768767 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same reason you wouldn't do "lol ~ {. -> }", not only is it useless < 1294768769 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's fucking ugly too < 1294768787 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: alternatively: remove N-inputs and just have every function take one input < 1294768788 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1294768820 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay have your fucking party, i don't actually give a shit about whether {. -> } is legal < 1294768833 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also..... < 1294768846 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{. -> 1} will be totally useful with hardcore functions < 1294768850 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by which i mean higher-order < 1294768852 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtfbbq is going on here :P < 1294768857 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: i have the perfect way to write it < 1294768862 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: {.-> 1} < 1294768865 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1294768868 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: .-> is the lambda arrow's retarded cousin < 1294768872 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1294768876 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: clue < 1294768881 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :get one < 1294768885 0 :cheater-!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1294768889 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DO NOT WANT < 1294768895 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: anyway actually implementing that will have to wait for you to add n-outputs, so :P < 1294768896 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for now i'll just < 1294768898 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eliminate holes < 1294768904 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and force you to replace, not delete < 1294768906 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the last two elems < 1294768907 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmmm n outputs < 1294768908 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why didn't i think of that < 1294768910 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH RIGHT < 1294768914 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because inserting a branch is like liquid pain < 1294768916 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION touches with red thing in mouth < 1294768935 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your uvula? < 1294768950 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no you pervert < 1294768972 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MEN DON'T UVULATE < 1294768983 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1294769056 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some reason i know that word in english, but i remember i didn't know it in finnish until a friend of mine whose dad is a dentist told me < 1294769063 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like the most useless thing ever < 1294769076 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://theorymine.co.uk/ haha what < 1294769130 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: so embarassing < 1294769152 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Drøvel drøvel drøvel < 1294769159 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would certainly like to know what they look like < 1294769165 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the best automated termination checker for brainfuck? < 1294769184 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't know. < 1294769186 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is this thing what < 1294769187 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does this exist < 1294769189 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: there is none :P < 1294769197 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's often trivial to prove < 1294769200 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probaly just running the damn thing for 100000 iterations < 1294769211 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. [ on an even number with balanced > and < means it loops forever < 1294769224 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well. with no nested loops < 1294769230 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait that isn't true < 1294769232 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i forget the rule :D < 1294769264 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah [-] is a counterexample < 1294769287 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a rule < 1294769289 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look at esotope for it :P < 1294769296 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually an automated termination checker for bf would be fun < 1294769321 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well there are many obvious things you can do, like look at which cells it actually changed, and wait for loop < 1294769336 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you just code all the obvious rules that would be a good start < 1294769349 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's an O(1) way for certain loops < 1294769351 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you can inspect the programs it doesn't get, and learn more sophistcated rules from them < 1294769354 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that can tell you it doesn't halt < 1294769361 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :based on extended euclidean algorithm < 1294769362 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very simple < 1294769364 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is assuming 8-bit cells < 1294769373 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could easily be modified to spit out a certificate to prove it < 1294769375 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it does not halt < 1294769393 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: nice idea, but usually the first one you inspect will be completely out of your reach < 1294769408 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I doubt that, why do you say that? Think it will be a collatz type thing? < 1294769416 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my experience is mostly based on trying to find the smallest aperiodic set of wang tiles in the summer < 1294769417 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: if so, then that's my goal! I want to find that program < 1294769437 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: wow cool how did that go? < 1294769440 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we ran computer simulations, and when a tile set didn't work, we looked at it manually < 1294769441 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This really captured my imagination and I'm delighted to buy TheoryMine's first Theorem. What an inventive use of Scotland's expertise in artificial intelligence to create such a novel and fun product". — TheoryMine testimonials. < 1294769449 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I AM NOT SCOTTISH SHE DOES NOT REPRESENT ME < 1294769456 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you could never say anything about them, after hours, you just ended up running the computer program for longer... < 1294769458 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION decides that The Onion Audio news suck < 1294769464 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Anne Glover, Chief Scientific Officer for Scotland < 1294769465 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the only sucky Onion thing < 1294769466 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAa < 1294769484 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: the onion is good for the headlines. < 1294769485 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-65-80.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1294769485 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly she is personally responsible for the suckishness of the computing curriculum. < 1294769487 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the articles are superfluous. < 1294769490 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: to my knowledge, every set of wang tiles except one is based on substitution < 1294769496 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol wang < 1294769496 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahem < 1294769501 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, there was one that had something the program didn't catch: there was a way to convert it into a smaller one that would've had to be aperiodic as well < 1294769502 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the one that's not is based on irrational numbers < 1294769503 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: proposed first step in the halting checker: see if esotope produces a simple infinite loop for it < 1294769508 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: it has a bunch of checks for that, i believe < 1294769509 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: yeah, that smallest one is not based on substitution < 1294769509 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they all "come from somewhere" < 1294769512 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instanec < 1294769512 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: proposed first step in the halting checker: see if esotope < 1294769513 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1294769515 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 233 elif len(result) == 1 and result[0][0] == result[0][1]: < 1294769516 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 234 if result[0][0] is None: < 1294769518 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 235 return Always() < 1294769520 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*instance < 1294769522 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from its condition code < 1294769524 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's made by my employer < 1294769524 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't find the extended euclidean thing < 1294769532 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why i was doing that in the sumemr < 1294769534 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*summer < 1294769541 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish that they had example theorems somewhere. < 1294769554 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1294769558 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: they do < 1294769563 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: http://hg.mearie.org/esotope/bfc/file/5bdae1176f46/bfc/opt/simpleloop.py < 1294769571 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(actually that's not completely true, since his colleaque changed a small detail to get one less tile, but that is a less interesting story) < 1294769578 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 90 # let w be the overflow value, which is 256 for char etc. < 1294769578 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 91 # then there are three cases in the following code: < 1294769579 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 92 # i = 0; for (j = 0; i != x; ++j) i += m; < 1294769580 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 93 # < 1294769582 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 94 # 1. if m = 0, it loops forever. < 1294769584 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 95 # 2. otherwise, the condition j * m = x (mod w) must hold. < 1294769586 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 96 # let u * m + v * w = gcd(m,w), and < 1294769587 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, where... < 1294769588 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 97 # 1) if x is not a multiple of gcd(m,w), it loops forever. < 1294769590 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 98 # 2) otherwise it terminates and j = u * (x / gcd(m,w)). < 1294769592 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 99 # < 1294769594 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 100 # we can calculate u and gcd(m,w) in the compile time, but < 1294769596 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 101 # x is not (yet). so we shall add simple check for now. < 1294769598 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: ^ < 1294769608 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right. < 1294769622 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: also http://dream.inf.ed.ac.uk/events/automatheo-2010/papers/automatheo2010_submission_1.pdf < 1294769644 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: how is it that all these systems that seem to do better than coq get overlooked, btw? < 1294769648 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: HOL and Isabelle and stuff < 1294769654 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: yeah, the ones that people have been able to prove things about come from somewhere; that's exactly my point, when they don't come from somewhere, you're screwed < 1294769672 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: I can understand Mizar, which has a very comprehensive development, being overlooked for being proprietary and non-constructive; and Automath too for similar reasons and also being old < 1294769675 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the others? < 1294769694 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for wang tiles, it seems possible that the best solution actually makes sense, since we're at 13, and 9 has been proven not to contain aperiodics afair < 1294769762 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: oh that was for balanced unnested? < 1294769772 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well obviously that's trivial, since you just have to look at the evolution of the current cell < 1294769773 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: i dunno :D < 1294769773 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1294769775 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah < 1294769789 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOL i say < 1294769798 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lo your own ol < 1294769810 0 :Zuu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1294769844 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should prolly go to sleep < 1294769866 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :last week i had 28 hour days, this week they seem to be more like 20 < 1294769867 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: help me write a brainfuck termination checker? < 1294769892 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: sure ... as long as it's not TOO hard < 1294769898 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: what proof language should the certificates be in? < 1294769907 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1294769920 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I always have in mind the version where all the cells can contain infinitely large integers < 1294769935 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: i dislike that version intensely < 1294769939 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either that or binary, everything else is retarded < 1294769941 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: that collatz uses 8-bit cells anyway < 1294769946 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so why not :P < 1294769955 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: most programs are written for 8-bit cells anyway < 1294769955 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1294769956 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just the 8bit thing is so bloody confusing < 1294769959 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why < 1294769962 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except holding up to 37, and wrapping to 19 < 1294769964 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can never get my head around that wrap around stuff < 1294769969 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: xD like deadfish < 1294769970 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we have arbitrary integers, < 1294769973 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then the tape must be only two long < 1294769976 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is my proclamation < 1294769983 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1294769990 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: the nice thing about 8-bit integers < 1294769992 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am fine with 8 bit numbers < 1294769994 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets go with that < 1294769997 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :integers? < 1294769998 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: is that they make the work a bit easier < 1294770001 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they can be negative.. < 1294770003 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the tape sort of segments them out < 1294770003 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1294770003 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er no < 1294770009 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1294770010 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8-bit non-negative integers < 1294770011 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 to 255 < 1294770012 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay good < 1294770013 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make the work easier?!? < 1294770016 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: sort of :D < 1294770018 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when writing a termination checker < 1294770021 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey afaict they make everything harder < 1294770023 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just plain not true! < 1294770032 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: you can't do that fancy euclidean stuff with arbitraries! < 1294770034 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1294770038 0 :Zuu!zuu@unaffiliated/zuu JOIN :#esoteric < 1294770038 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything gets really hairy, a mathematician would never have wrap 256 < 1294770067 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well a boolfuck termination checker is a lot more boring < 1294770070 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: umm, for infinites, that algo doesn't even need modular arithmetic < 1294770075 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there's less existing programs to poke it at < 1294770083 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: hmmmmmmm < 1294770084 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1294770086 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but things assume 8-bit < 1294770089 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1294770100 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, you don't even *need* that fancy euclidean stuff < 1294770118 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1294770120 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinite things are usually much simpler than finite ones < 1294770120 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but but oklopol < 1294770124 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can i feed mandelbrot.b do it < 1294770125 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*to it < 1294770129 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do whom? < 1294770147 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good point < 1294770161 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you won't be able to prove anything about the halting of mandelbrot.b anyway < 1294770181 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: how do YOU know < 1294770183 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe me and j-invariant < 1294770183 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are < 1294770183 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the < 1294770185 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BEST < 1294770187 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coders < 1294770204 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've heard j-invariant sucks at coding < 1294770217 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from him, like, umm, yesterday? < 1294770226 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if he doesn't know, who will < 1294770230 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i certainly won't. < 1294770231 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i do. < 1294770241 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you < 1294770242 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1294770247 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't even get me started about you < 1294770247 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1294770251 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am < 1294770253 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the BEST < 1294770266 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you maybe the best, but i ask you: best at *what*? < 1294770285 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: code < 1294770297 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah i forgot what we were talking about < 1294770310 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1294770418 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so um oklopol < 1294770424 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use cled for writing like < 1294770425 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything < 1294770426 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay? < 1294770438 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it play well with latex < 1294770441 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:22 < oklopol> you won't be able to prove anything about the halting of mandelbrot.b anyway < 1294770446 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not? Isn't that one pretty simple? < 1294770451 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: it always uses a condom, why do you ask < 1294770459 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: i think you're a little too enthusiastic about the powers of automated proving < 1294770482 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: i don't even remember the algorithm < 1294770484 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was it? < 1294770485 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: isn't it basically for(int i = 0; i < 100; i++) { do stuff } < 1294770496 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: well maybe < 1294770507 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it's very possible you will be able to prove stuff about that < 1294770509 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: I think we should use esotope's code partly < 1294770512 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: it has this intermediate format < 1294770519 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1294770527 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does a lot of constant folding, adds arithmetic expressions < 1294770527 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for loops < 1294770532 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even detects some infinite loops < 1294770537 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be a lot easier to prove on i feel < 1294770809 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: so um... what certificate lang < 1294770840 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it can be anything. You choose < 1294770846 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would use Coq but that's just because I have it installed < 1294770847 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: i don't know :D < 1294770856 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: auto-generating Coq sounds a bit painful? < 1294770866 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: I think generating lambda expressions is probably the "easiest" thing < 1294770869 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than automating tactics < 1294770905 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: so i really don't know :) < 1294770930 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably just program the whole thing in Ltac < 1294770946 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah that would be really slow < 1294770950 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does need efficiecy < 1294770960 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: yeah naw < 1294770970 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: I was thinking it'd be a Haskell program < 1294770979 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: of course we _could_ just not generate any certificates, but that's much less fun < 1294770994 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yes certificate is important < 1294770996 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you could think about that when your program is ready up to that point < 1294771000 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: otherwise there may be a bug in the program < 1294771008 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: um it's actually relevant from the start < 1294771012 0 :MigoMipo_!~John@84-217-4-100.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1294771014 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: it has to use certificates from the very first line < 1294771016 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not < 1294771020 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it is < 1294771022 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not < 1294771025 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the certificates must be generated as part of the process < 1294771026 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol works without a safety net < 1294771028 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than after the fact < 1294771048 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1294771049 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone here using FF 4.x ? < 1294771056 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and adblockplus) < 1294771063 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: because that's how these things work? < 1294771069 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise it's duplicated work < 1294771204 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe sure the actual program will have to write certificates from the start, but i don't see why you'd need to know what proof language you'll be using from the start when writing the halting checker < 1294771208 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1294771340 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: because with certificate stuff, every single bit of reasoning involves a certificate < 1294771343 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't just say < 1294771348 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if foo then doesn't halt else dunno < 1294771350 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to say < 1294771366 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if foo then (doesn't halt, proof that it doesn't halt in this specific case using general theorem involving "foo") else dunno < 1294772019 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm going to have to make my emacs font smaller < 1294772023 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what you're saying is the finding of the proofs is not actually harder compared to the proving < 1294772025 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1294772043 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: the point is that you can't really do just one. < 1294772045 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :geh, whatever < 1294772053 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, doing certificates _is_ actually pretty hard < 1294772108 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION headaches < 1294772112 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well given that j-invariant complains about how hard it is to prove trivial things about every second day, it's hard not to believe that < 1294772113 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should eat breakfast < 1294772125 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all i'm saying is you don't have to do the search for the proof in a safe way+ < 1294772128 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-+ < 1294772132 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: what do you mean < 1294772147 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: also, yes, proving trivial things is hard in Coq etc. < 1294772154 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it's not hard proving trivial things is it? < 1294772160 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1294772163 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol has a very lax definition of trivial. < 1294772165 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought I was complaining abuot not having support for certain features < 1294772168 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hard to say without knowing what kind of stuff you're going to do < 1294772186 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think modelling category theory in type theory is < 1294772187 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"trivial" < 1294772209 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: well maybe you've once complained about something and it sounded like you were complaining about something that was trivial, but actually you meant there was no nice way to do it or something < 1294772215 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was just being colorful < 1294772225 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah, i have a very lax definition of trivial < 1294772273 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say existence of infinitely many primes is trivial < 1294772289 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: why doesn't emacs always have two copies of every buffer < 1294772291 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :displaye < 1294772291 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d < 1294772292 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well maybe i would say that's simple < 1294772294 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not trivial < 1294772411 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: have you ever used teco, i think everyone should use teco < 1294772413 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for < 1294772414 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything < 1294772417 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :including editing clue < 1294772419 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who needs cled < 1294772459 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's possible that in the case of bf programs, there isn't really much of a search stage < 1294772514 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but hard to say without knowing what specific things you're going to prove the halting of < 1294772569 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've heard o fit :P < 1294772573 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-19-45.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1294772597 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: it's great, because instead of using a program to program < 1294772600 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: you program to program < 1294772606 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every editor operation is a little mini program :) < 1294772612 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now you have two problems! < 1294772689 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1294772704 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1294772731 0 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1294772754 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1294772841 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: writing cled is so hard why do you do this to me < 1294773215 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is for science < 1294773237 0 :BMG!~behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1294773274 0 :BMG!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1294773274 0 :BMG!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1294773279 0 :BMG!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :BeholdMyGlory < 1294773421 0 :Behold!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1294773562 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: write a program whose only function is to output a proof that it works correctly < 1294773567 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., only ever outputs correct proofs < 1294773683 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the more sophisticated an automatical thoerem prover for brainfuck termination is, the further away turings liar program is < 1294773703 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. a really simple termination checker could be reimplemented in brainfuck and lied to in maybe, 3000 symbols. < 1294773712 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But a very advanced one would take 10000 symbols < 1294773719 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: i want to see that program :D < 1294773722 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that i mentioned < 1294773726 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/described < 1294773776 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't get it. What does it do? < 1294773806 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be an implementation fo the termination checker looking at this program AND a quine < 1294773826 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you fit the quine into the termination checker and do the opposite of what it says < 1294773868 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: that's not necessarily true, since the formal proof system could be implemented in 5000 symbols, making all your further efforts pointless < 1294773870 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is a simple matter to make a stronger termination checker which can detect the termination of this pathological program < 1294773882 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I don't understand < 1294773898 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1294773899 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: oh you mean godel instead of turing: Okay, I get it < 1294773930 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: yeah it's a simple matter, as long as you don't expect to find a proof in the same formal system < 1294773967 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is only termination certificates though -- the actual termination checker is written in a turing machine < 1294773981 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: hey we should just cut the crap and write the termination checker in brainfuck < 1294773994 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: oh yeah that sounds like a barrel of fun laughs < 1294774000 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: none of this python etc. < 1294774003 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i have an even better idea to do first < 1294774005 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's hang ourselves < 1294774008 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait wait wait < 1294774008 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1294774011 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :go bathe in a vat of acid < 1294774014 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOL < 1294774015 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg how can i decide < 1294774018 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;_; < 1294774032 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe have all my skin removed slowly before my internal organs are devoured by an angry goat, and then my skeleton is set on fire < 1294774057 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: re i don't get it < 1294774062 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: a program X, with only one function < 1294774073 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: when X is invoked, it returns a proof certificate P < 1294774083 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: this P is a proof of the statement that X works correctly < 1294774094 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: example definition of "works correctly": < 1294774099 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall P in Ps, P < 1294774107 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where Ps is the set of proofs that X outputs < 1294774109 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except *IsCorrect P < 1294774111 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOL < 1294774112 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you get what i mean < 1294774116 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders how easy or difficult it is to make a self-hosting language < 1294774130 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I am correct" < 1294774132 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so basically, it outputs a proof P that proves that every proof X outputs (of which there is only one, P) is correct < 1294774133 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep :D < 1294774140 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess part of it really does require making a compiler, doesn't it? < 1294774149 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: kinda. < 1294774150 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: or just an interpreter < 1294774151 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really < 1294774154 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could run it all on top of python < 1294774158 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like you run it all on top of x86 < 1294774223 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: it's a good feeling though when you delete the original < 1294774224 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But.. that's not that interesting, is it? < 1294774233 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant, right, that's what I want < 1294774240 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: you should do it!!! < 1294774245 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: it's a good feeling when you delete the x86 < 1294774250 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after creating a processor for your language < 1294774252 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then delete physics < 1294774258 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ddelete the universe :D < 1294774260 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after making sure your language is hosted independently of physics < 1294774268 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically the idea is to replace everything with your language < 1294774269 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EVERYTHING < 1294774270 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no dependencies < 1294774270 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EVER < 1294774271 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the qustiion is "How low can you go" < 1294774275 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :language limbo < 1294774277 0 :calamari!~calamari@ip70-162-184-205.ph.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1294774283 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^^ GUYS GENIUS PUN? < 1294774287 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I loled < 1294774332 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: deleting the original though, i would never do that < 1294774335 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if i lose my interpreter binary < 1294774350 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or i find a fatal bug < 1294774356 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that means all compilers have a contagious bug < 1294774358 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :accidental trusting trust :D < 1294774380 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What did the original for gcc use? < 1294774389 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm, they just used other C compilers. < 1294774397 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the advantage of doing it for a mostly portable language :P < 1294774400 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type the assembly by hand < 1294774401 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*with a < 1294774408 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then type the source code < 1294774415 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and check that compilation gives you back the compiler < 1294774415 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: *machine code < 1294774417 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a butterfly < 1294774422 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what to do if no programming languages exist < 1294774446 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: assembly is a language < 1294774472 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/ezzh4/why_not/c1canyy?context=1 THIS IS THE BEST WORST IDEA EVER < 1294774486 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol @ the recipe below that < 1294774489 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does compiling to LLVM make sense? < 1294774513 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/ezzh4/why_not/c1cbsrt <-- haha < 1294774514 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only if you're a LOSER < 1294774516 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :writing x86 assembly is easier < 1294774517 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tbh < 1294774517 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can put these in it < 1294774531 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1294774540 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: ? < 1294774541 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: < 1294774543 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: i think that < 1294774549 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: one obsidian in the topright < 1294774552 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, are you serious? < 1294774556 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: tnt to the right of that < 1294774556 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x86 is easier? < 1294774559 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: diamond to the right of that < 1294774560 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: yes < 1294774563 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x86 asm is trivial < 1294774570 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait < 1294774570 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :llvm asm is pretty complex :P < 1294774574 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: then below that < 1294774581 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Compilers compile into asm? Wouldn't machine code make more sense? < 1294774581 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: a golden apple on the left < 1294774584 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1294774589 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: sure, gcc outputs gnu assembly syntax < 1294774595 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: machine code is just as easy, though :P < 1294774600 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you define the instructions as names in your program < 1294774602 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and registers too < 1294774605 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's like a ghetto assembler < 1294774659 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I compile to x86, then certain things will be platform-dependent < 1294774664 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, OS-dependent < 1294774674 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: doesn't matter. < 1294774683 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :syscalls are easier than anything else anyway. < 1294774687 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could just compile to C. < 1294774696 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: llvm assembly is quite platform specific anyway < 1294774698 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a lot of cases < 1294774720 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you won't be able to try my super-cool language that is poorly designed and only exists to prove to myself that I can write a self-hosting language. < 1294774727 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why no < 1294774728 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :t < 1294774735 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1294774744 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I'm on Windows, and not particularly likely to switch to Linux to do this < 1294774747 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOL < 1294774748 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOL < 1294774749 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOL < 1294774749 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOL < 1294774754 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't even know if windows has syscalls < 1294774758 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :continuation-based backtracking! \o/ < 1294774758 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :                                 | < 1294774758 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :                                 |\ < 1294774759 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if they do calling them will probably be a bitch < 1294774760 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1294774763 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could use dos-style interrupts < 1294774766 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but those are a bitch to use < 1294774769 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, all the assemblers suck < 1294774775 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol lol lol @ the idea of doing this on windows < 1294774831 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows has syscalls but you rarely ever see them; you just call library functions instead. < 1294774845 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't they have that fucked up calling convention < 1294774846 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lool < 1294774897 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's stdcall, which is a bit strange; callee cleans up the stack. < 1294774922 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"nice" < 1294774932 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: wait, so C functions re-push their arguments? < 1294774937 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to get popped right after? < 1294774939 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: that's so yesterday < 1294774940 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the most brilliantly stupid thing ... ever < 1294774948 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: yes but NOT FOR ME < 1294774952 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i GET it < 1294774956 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i grok it man < 1294774959 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its intuitive < 1294774964 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't you get it yesterday? < 1294774986 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i thought i did < 1294774989 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: it's also inefficient < 1294774989 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i just wrote some code < 1294774994 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and figured it out < 1294774996 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I don't know what that means. In foo(a,b,c) the caller does push c; push b; push a; call foo; and foo itself takes care of popping the arguments. (Unlike cdecl where the caller would adjust the stack back.) < 1294774997 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: oh sure, thats not the point < 1294774999 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay < 1294775006 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point is to understand what people have thought of < 1294775011 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it's not yesterday, then it's today < 1294775022 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you know who else is inefficient? < 1294775024 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: that seems actually saner for some things < 1294775027 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: my butt? < 1294775030 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1294775032 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH LOOK AT THAT < 1294775032 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SUBVERSION < 1294775040 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott butt x3 < 1294775043 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh shit you won < 1294775046 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1294775048 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: lolpedo < 1294775054 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn wait it's ephebo now < 1294775055 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks a bit neater; though it then breaks worse than cdecl if the caller and callee disagree about the number of arguments. < 1294775056 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :less catchy :( < 1294775064 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I think vararg functions are more messy somehow. < 1294775068 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Right. < 1294775075 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you werent prepubescent when you were 13 either < 1294775080 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but thats not the point < 1294775082 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: HOW DO YOU KNOW < 1294775087 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :question: I have some coal and I want to make glass.... < 1294775096 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well im guessing you're not weird < 1294775097 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but should I use it to make glass or use it to find more coal? < 1294775102 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :liking 15yo is not really a philia < 1294775104 0 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1294775112 0 :rom9com1!~Rom@men75-6-82-230-14-45.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1294775117 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for oklopol, its reality! < 1294775121 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1294775122 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION licks oklopol < 1294775139 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: well < 1294775142 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: how much coal do you have < 1294775142 0 :rom9com!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1294775151 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: not sure, ilike 30 bits < 1294775153 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: i mean obviously you need to keep a lot for torches and shit < 1294775159 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha keep shity < 1294775176 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: well, 1 coal can make 8 glass out of 8 sand < 1294775187 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: but you need torches to explore, and coal is useful besides < 1294775198 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: getting e.g. 64 coal should not take long at all -- are you mining properly? < 1294775234 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: coal is very easy to find, just keep a couple boxes full of it to make sure you don't accidentally run out < 1294775246 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: probably not X) < 1294775256 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: how are you mining < 1294775259 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: how much is a box full? < 1294775267 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :many, many stacks of 64. but only oklopol does that. < 1294775267 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: several different ways, to find out what works well < 1294775271 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you accumulate tons of it naturally usually < 1294775280 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The most coal I ever found was just by exploring, and noticing it on the sides of hills < 1294775287 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: use the wiki, really :) < 1294775293 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Tutorials/Mining_Techniques lists all the viable mining techniques < 1294775299 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: apart from that -- you do spelunk right? < 1294775309 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats that < 1294775318 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: going into caves < 1294775320 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw I also started a quarry because I wanted obsidian < 1294775320 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and cavern systems < 1294775323 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and lighting them < 1294775323 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that doesn't work great < 1294775324 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and mining ore there < 1294775330 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quarry howso < 1294775338 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My coal-box only has 7*64. :/ < 1294775339 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant, if you want obsidian, find some lava < 1294775365 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: really, don't be ashamed of reading the wiki, it's not fun to be all "oh how can i get coal" :) < 1294775377 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and since the game has no real objective... if it's not fun, just look it up < 1294775419 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have lots of coal < 1294775437 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just wondering if I should use it to set up somet mine or just create glass now < 1294775598 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ell? :)) < 1294775713 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I should build a spiral staircase that goes right down to lava < 1294775720 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant, check the wiki. Reading the wiki is fun. < 1294775742 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant, a straight one works fine? Though there aren't lava lakes everywhere. They are lava lakes after all < 1294775746 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i doubt i have a full box of coal even on my local < 1294775749 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prolly close < 1294775759 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with emphasis on lake) < 1294775766 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: i've built a staircase that goes down to bedrock zomg :P < 1294775770 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, i use it about once every 5 steps < 1294775817 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, movecraft is fun btw. Sad it doesn't handle redstone, chests or doors yet < 1294775866 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on esoserver you can just mine straight down because you can't die :( < 1294775867 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Tutorials/Quarry <-- dunno if this is a troll article or not < 1294775870 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rotating the boat/shift/aircraft/whatever for turning < 1294775892 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHERE'S THE MINECRAFT IN THAT? < 1294775900 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, ? < 1294775902 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to me? < 1294775904 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or to j-invariant? < 1294775927 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to neither, continuation to what i said earlier < 1294775957 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1294775981 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant, well if you are mining for cobble (which probably only happens when you are doing megascale structures) they a quarry can work well < 1294775991 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want ores then they are useless < 1294776036 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do hostile mobs spawn in trees? < 1294776059 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: the Cube is basically a gigantic quarry < 1294776060 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, well, will be < 1294776068 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I have a treehouse and a zombie sometiems spawns next to the tree ontop < 1294776079 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah my treehouse is open air :D < 1294776080 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe a bad idae < 1294776082 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idea < 1294776088 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant, do they spawn on leaves or on logs only? < 1294776095 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's the ground < 1294776103 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a layer of mud ontop of my house to grow trees on < 1294776160 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if a creeper spawns in the fucking tree i will die < 1294776164 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: mud? you mean dirt? :P < 1294776179 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1294776185 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, add some glass walls? < 1294776192 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, or light up the tree? < 1294776199 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: um this is first night < 1294776202 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ah < 1294776203 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the tree is lit, kinda < 1294776205 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can light it more < 1294776217 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well that is an easy way to protect yourself! < 1294776247 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there, all lit up < 1294776263 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[In Beta, lava is less reactive with horizontal water flows. It also has a chance of forming redstone ore when water runs on top of it [citation needed]. Lava pools without a source will degrade to dirt after a given time period.]] < 1294776282 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol, skeleton in the trees >_< < 1294776286 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't shoot me < 1294776288 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(another tree) < 1294776288 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also once movecraft gets fixed I think a yacht might be a cool living place. But at the moment that is not viable. < 1294776300 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god spider noise < 1294776301 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it just me < 1294776306 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do the monsters always seem to be closer < 1294776307 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :than they are < 1294776308 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the sounds < 1294776310 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : [[In Beta, lava is less reactive with horizontal water flows. It also has a chance of forming redstone ore when water runs on top of it [citation needed]. Lava pools without a source will degrade to dirt after a given time period.]] <-- that sounds made up < 1294776314 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: How do I lift water up? < 1294776318 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: bucket < 1294776322 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. to make an aquaduckt < 1294776326 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, the dirt think I'm pretty sure is wrong for example < 1294776331 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no other way ;9 < 1294776332 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1294776336 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: just make bukkits < 1294776338 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only requires a few iron < 1294776344 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : EIdon't have iron ingots < 1294776347 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 iron for a bucket < 1294776351 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"When you stay in Lava for about 1-2 seconds, your character makes noises which appear to go along to "When the Saints Go Marching In."" < 1294776352 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what xD < 1294776355 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant, well can't be done without a bucket < 1294776362 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iw onder if that's intentional < 1294776362 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, dude that is a troll < 1294776363 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*i wonder < 1294776366 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: i don't care < 1294776368 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't want it to be < 1294776368 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1294776371 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your definition of troll sucks < 1294776372 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :joke != troll < 1294776387 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well a joke should be funny. That is just pathetic < 1294776393 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's amusing < 1294776396 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god why do the spiders sound so fucking close < 1294776397 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are they close < 1294776403 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you have no sense of humour < 1294776422 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought he had too much of it < 1294776436 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a sixth sense of humor < 1294776439 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, well maybe he has an anti-sense of humor < 1294776446 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1294776458 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1294776465 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you copy words from other people too? i was just about to correct humor to humour because you used that < 1294776472 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then < 1294776480 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you go and spoil it by now having used both < 1294776508 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf pig < 1294776512 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how did you get on top of that tree < 1294776512 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just totally instantiated my own oklopol < 1294776536 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1294776541 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but no one knows < 1294776546 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's in my CLOSURE. < 1294776559 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i KNEW you were gay < 1294776568 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1294776573 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1294776582 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe cheater99 is augur < 1294776585 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this theory is backed by EVIDENCE < 1294776586 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what sort of gay hating is that now < 1294776595 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm only useful for 7 things, and 6 of them i can do on this channel. < 1294776608 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the seventh is knitting < 1294776610 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is not < 1294776619 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it not? what is the seventh then < 1294776640 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: not being here < 1294776645 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's good for that. < 1294776647 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he can do that < 1294776650 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's called af < 1294776650 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1294776659 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm useful for, um < 1294776672 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yea but he can't do that on the channel < 1294776681 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously by definition. < 1294776698 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[4.) Continue the process of mining a layer, and then another, until you hit bedrock. This may take a few days of vigorous playing to accomplish, but your earnings will make it well worth it. Most quarries yield an average of 150 stacks of coal, 50 stacks of iron ore, 20 stacks of gold ore, 5 stacks of obsidian, and a maximum of 1 stack of diamond gems, though these results vary with the width, depth and location of your quarry.[cita < 1294776698 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tion needed] (see discussion section)]] < 1294776699 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmhmm < 1294776699 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 bits of coal produce 2 glass blocks??? < 1294776706 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: dude... < 1294776714 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: 1 bit of coal = 8 output; 1 bit of sand = 1 output < 1294776721 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1294776724 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: N sand -> N glass, requiring ceil(N/8) coal < 1294776724 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/File:Smeltingmenu.png < 1294776732 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: that is in progress < 1294776736 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as you can plainly see by the arrow < 1294776738 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the fires < 1294776743 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it takes time to smelt < 1294776791 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would you use coal to smelt? < 1294776806 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wood works and is renewable < 1294776814 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really?? < 1294776837 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note: Just because what I said is true, doesn't make it a good idea. < 1294776914 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: Sgeo is being stuepid, coal is far more efficient & practical to use for smelting. < 1294776926 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: See http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Furnace#Fuel_efficiency. < 1294776957 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Until the day you have to go on tremendously long minecart rides to get coal < 1294776958 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofc if you have some lava... :D < 1294776962 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: what < 1294776963 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lava can smelt? < 1294776965 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :getting coal is easy < 1294776969 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: a bucket of it, yes, it also destroys the bucket < 1294776971 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: hideously impractical < 1294776974 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody does it < 1294777192 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Wood works and is renewable ← only Vorpal cares about this, and he couldn't be bothered. < 1294777199 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=20891 < 1294777204 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, has the Sustainable project been canceled, Vorpal? < 1294777207 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*cancelled < 1294777225 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I presume so. < 1294777226 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: tl;dr guy wipes cave sounds due to being a pussy. < 1294777227 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, no more cancelled than most of your code project s:P < 1294777230 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :projects * < 1294777231 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU TOO COULD FOLLOW IN HIS FOOTSTEPS < 1294777233 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presume why? < 1294777241 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps I should warp out to (4000,4000) and check. < 1294777243 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, but it is suspended < 1294777253 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, simply because lava is no longer renewable < 1294777262 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no renewable light source any more < 1294777268 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, burning log < 1294777277 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that where it was going to be? < 1294777278 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what about making it burn in the first place? < 1294777291 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was near 4000,4000 < 1294777294 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not at it < 1294777300 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know exact coords < 1294777306 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just how to walk from 4000,4000 to get there < 1294777308 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1294777320 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone tell me in which series Red Dwarf ceases to be worth watching. < 1294777370 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: The eighth series is meant to be a bit naff. < 1294777514 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : getting coal is easy <-- well, sgeo is right. some day you will exhaust all coal in the area near your base. This will however take a very long time. Probably months of mining in that area non-stop. < 1294777540 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in practise I doubt it will be a problem unless you keep a word for that long time < 1294777544 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I doubt that about you < 1294777647 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've just finished 50x50x3 hall under the sea < 1294777657 0 :Cocytus!~Cocytus@c-65-96-205-201.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1294777679 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, those cave sounds are nice. They remind me of a cross between myst and nwn somehow. < 1294777716 0 :Cocytus!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1294777737 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: HOW GOES GRAVITY.LISP. < 1294777743 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: That's less than 128x128x128. < 1294777753 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: Wait, x3? As in, only 3 tall? < 1294777754 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it doesn't go at all. < 1294777758 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: PAH < 1294777767 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 metres tall is plenty! < 1294777772 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1294777779 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: Sgeo: Buy the damn game and do drudge work on the Cube. < 1294777805 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If we have enough drudge workers, we can just mine it out by hand! < 1294777807 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: http://cobolforgcc.sourceforge.net/ < 1294777818 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga, glass? < 1294777828 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga, if not, it isn't awesome enough for the roof < 1294777846 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Say a miner can reach the bottom of any square of map in 100 seconds. < 1294777853 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Say you have 10 people on the job. < 1294777868 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: There are 16,384 such squares to do. < 1294777870 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is the cube? < 1294777892 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: deep under the sea < 1294777900 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant, elliott's slightly Freudian construction project. < 1294777901 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :around level 16 < 1294777901 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, isn't that 45 hours per person? < 1294777903 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: tl;dr 45 and a half straight hours. < 1294777906 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, try again < 1294777917 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what about 128 workers? < 1294777921 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: A 128 wide, 128 high, 128 deep cube in the ocean, made out of glass, lit by lava. < 1294777925 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: What's Freudian about it. < 1294777929 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga, so not at the sea bottom? < 1294777934 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1294777936 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, COMPENSATING FOR SOMETHING? < 1294777941 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga, not awesome enough :P < 1294777946 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My genitalia are not cuboid. < 1294777951 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga, everyone dug under the sea in terrains < 1294777968 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: But yeah, even with 10 people working on it constantly and several breakings of the laws of physics, it would take 45 hours to mine out the Cube. < 1294777972 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I'm saying is: TNT kit. < 1294777974 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate minecraft < 1294777979 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: then why did you make it < 1294777995 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my during the hours that took me to dig it < 1294778004 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, OK, but you're clearly compensating for the fact that you're 4 feet tall IRL. < 1294778008 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my gf got really mad at me < 1294778018 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i didn't earn a penny < 1294778023 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because coding is so boring < 1294778027 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: That is true. < 1294778052 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: MORE AWE AT THE CUBE PLZ < 1294778055 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : nooga, everyone dug under the sea in terrains ← terrains? < 1294778072 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There should be underground biomes. < 1294778075 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, err, good questions < 1294778082 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :question* < 1294778099 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, there is that thing which fiddles with the terrain gen's internal parameters < 1294778099 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, I think I'm a bit pluralish today < 1294778114 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(SSP only, though.) < 1294778118 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: BiomeTerrain or whatever? < 1294778124 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No idea. < 1294778126 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I've wanted to try that for a while now. It looks way better than Notch's generator. < 1294778135 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, everyone dug under the sea in terrain? < 1294778139 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Generates much larger, smoother biomes and the like. Lots of tweakable parameters. < 1294778146 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, well it is /slightly/ better < 1294778155 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: That photo I linked of a highlands scene (saying it was a good argument for Better Grass) was made with it. < 1294778159 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, if you define terrain to "solid blocks" then it makes sense :P < 1294778168 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I don't remember that. < 1294778176 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was literally days ago. < 1294778189 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, link to that photo? I don't remember seeing that photo < 1294778244 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I'm the sort of person who's done the Red Cross First Aid course twice and so I knew what to do and was almost immediately compressing his chest to the rhythm of the Bee Gees' Staying Alive with the phone operator counting along with me. No, I'm not being funny. The rhythm of that song is ideal for CPR." < 1294778253 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Never perform CPR unless you do that. < 1294778288 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: sounds amazing < 1294778288 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Alternatively, it's the same BMP as Queen's "Another One Bites the Dust" and Pink Floyd's "Another Brick in the Wall Part II".]] < 1294778300 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: yeah, we've cleared, like, 10 lines of sea :P < 1294778303 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like moses, except really slow < 1294778306 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10?? < 1294778309 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: You said it looked too flat, IIRC. < 1294778309 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: and excavation is... slow < 1294778310 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: yes, 10 < 1294778312 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've done more than 10 < 1294778314 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: as in, 10 lines of 126 long < 1294778320 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: about 10 deep each < 1294778331 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: i doubt you have < 1294778345 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: that's about 10*10*126 = 12600 blocks placed < 1294778348 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to clear < 1294778353 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very roughly < 1294778395 0 :Zuu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1294778399 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1294778406 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1294778408 0 :sftp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1294778408 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1294778408 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1294778418 0 :Ilari_antrcomp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1294778418 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1294778424 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: http://imgur.com/om0iL This is fully functional, with CraftBook. < 1294778424 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Discuss superiority to Vorpal's gate. < 1294778455 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly superior. Also irrelevant if Vorpal doesn't have CraftBook. < 1294778505 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's on his test server and he was talking about craftbook before. < 1294778507 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And how awesome it was. < 1294778510 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So yes, he does. < 1294778563 0 :Zuu!zuu@unaffiliated/zuu JOIN :#esoteric < 1294778563 0 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1294778563 0 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.251.165.38 JOIN :#esoteric < 1294778563 0 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.49.208 JOIN :#esoteric < 1294778563 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1294778563 0 :EgoBot!~EgoBot@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1294778563 0 :Ilari_antrcomp!~user@2002:5870:38d7:1:20e:a6ff:fe6f:2288 JOIN :#esoteric < 1294778563 0 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:38d7::1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1294778598 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1294778601 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: In which Notch actually responds to feedback: http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/ezpw5/lots_of_new_info_including_cake/c1c7grn < 1294778602 0 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-224-158.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1294778623 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1294778636 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whe n you break a bit of glass you don't get it back :( < 1294778643 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: INDEED < 1294778647 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lsFN5DgoLc This is the silliest thing. < 1294778666 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Old, apparently.) < 1294778716 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv6GVDu46ls I hypothesise that sound mods are inherently hilarious. < 1294778720 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cow cow cow cow cow. < 1294778969 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/drvm8/my_experiment_with_modifying_the_minecraft_sound/c12gnct ;_; < 1294779128 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOL < 1294779612 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1294779670 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcd(F_m,F_n)=F_{gcd(m,n)} < 1294779691 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1294779695 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now use that to compute gcd < 1294779792 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1294779803 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fibonacci numbers are weird < 1294780144 0 :jix!jix@tomakin.h-ix.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1294780310 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, is the server down? < 1294780338 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm up now anyway < 1294780338 0 :rom9com1!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1294780366 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ineiros, are you skyping? < 1294780688 0 :calamari!~calamari@ip70-162-184-205.ph.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1294780807 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1294781235 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ineiros, what the hell are you doing? < 1294781708 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's toying with you. < 1294781715 0 :Mathnerd314!~mathnerd3@dsl.6.28.53.206.cos.dyn.pcisys.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1294782361 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: ? < 1294782376 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With Vorpal. < 1294782420 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, is that supposed to be funny? It isn't really. < 1294782468 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, now you've made it even *less* funny. < 1294782483 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, your own fault for not making it funny to begin with < 1294782544 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, besides movecraft got updated. Now doors are supposed to work (nothing done on chests yet though) < 1294782554 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, also submarines < 1294782563 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: help me design my language :P < 1294782574 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's this?? < 1294782594 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: a language! btw have you read any more of the axiom info? < 1294782602 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eyah a little < 1294782620 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: is it close to what you were thinking of? < 1294782627 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1294782633 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: no < 1294782633 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1294782651 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can learn form it < 1294782667 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: isn't it a dependent symbolic CAS? :P i mean that's my impression of it < 1294783263 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: i'm actually curious < 1294783278 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: youo're right < 1294783287 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: what does your design have different to axiom? :) < 1294783478 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh i have to rename some of my methods... < 1294783491 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: can you fork ghc and add ml-style modules please, then i would always use haskell < 1294783559 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yeah I think I would change a bit moore than that :P < 1294783583 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: Well ... ML modules lets you chuck out typeclasses :P < 1294783604 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sort of. < 1294783725 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yeah, something that subsumes GADTs, Typeclasses and Modules < 1294783738 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: you mean like dependent records? :P < 1294783763 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure < 1294783773 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: sure < 1294783800 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: dependent records do powerful ML-style modules; powerful ML-style modules do typeclasses with, like, one bit of magic; and dependent inductive types are of course basically GADTs < 1294783833 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: (the one bit of magic I think is this: a module signature can specify one of its exported values is "magical"; whenever a value of that type is needed as an implicit module parameter (a notion added just for this), that value is used) < 1294783856 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: for instance, the module implementing integers would have a magical value of type Ring Z < 1294783862 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then some function might be like < 1294783887 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lolRingFunction : forall T, [Ring T] -> ... < 1294783893 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where [] means "magic module param" < 1294783895 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then < 1294783898 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lolRingFunction (some Z) < 1294783902 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would auto-specify that (Ring Z) value < 1294783906 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: hey what about < 1294783913 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lolRingFunction : Ring T, ... < 1294783914 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course having two magical values of the same type in your current module scope is verboten < 1294783923 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use typeclasses *as* quantifiers < 1294783924 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: you mean as the syntax? < 1294783928 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a nice idea < 1294783934 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would keep the verbosity down < 1294783944 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: maybe something like "the" though < 1294783948 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lolRingFunction : the Ring T, ... < 1294784118 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: oh god, I have created an image that could give Douglas Hofstadter an aneurysm < 1294784142 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a basilisk image? < 1294784149 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but Hofstadter-only < 1294784154 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :behold < 1294784154 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/VqcIS.png < 1294784155 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RECURSION < 1294784159 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hear it blows his mind < 1294784168 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too bad i'm not him < 1294784172 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like being blown < 1294784176 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1294784193 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1294784193 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :agh, tk < 1294784201 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously the egytions understood recursion < 1294784213 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :egytions :D < 1294784223 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm making a pyramid in minecraft < 1294784232 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's glass on the inside but sand on the outside < 1294784234 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note to self, add a separate background colour for selected vs. active... hard to remove those lists without knowing what you have selected < 1294784321 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :editing these nested expressions is slow :D < 1294784333 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: nice < 1294784394 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would like to see an upside-down floating sand pyramid in minecraft < 1294784408 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not upside down :( < 1294784690 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: is "foo ~ {}" valid Clue? < 1294784724 0 :hiato!~nine@clam.leg.uct.ac.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1294784774 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : i would like to see an upside-down floating sand pyramid in minecraft <-- possible with torches < 1294784787 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia, if it floats just above a torch that is < 1294784796 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia, why not make one yourself? < 1294784870 0 :MigoMipo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1294784874 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someday < 1294784900 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: sometime < 1294784915 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, somewhere < 1294784957 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(wait, is none else going to continue this chain?) < 1294784961 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(bbl) < 1294785448 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: so hey, cled is ugly as fuck :D < 1294785623 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: http://i.imgur.com/CP1vV.png can you figure out what's going on here :D < 1294785626 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even i have troubles < 1294785689 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what [] does.. looks nice though :D < 1294785820 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: it's just a list < 1294785830 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: ([] (1) (2) (3)) there is [1 2 3] < 1294785858 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: basically, that screenshot is the really ugly representation of {. 3 [7 44 1] -> [[1] 3 [7 44]] } ... with some highlighting oddities < 1294785872 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: i think i'm starting to see why this kind of editing is unpopular < 1294785873 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is cled? some derivative of clue? < 1294785910 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: cled is my semantic AST editor for clue ... it happened after i wanted to write a clue-mode for emacs < 1294785915 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's became, well, this monstrosity < 1294785918 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*become, < 1294785926 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :time to kill it dead? < 1294785928 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :453 lines of folly and counting < 1294785937 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: nO < 1294785938 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*NO < 1294785941 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the platonically perfect clue editor < 1294785943 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just sucks, is all < 1294785951 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i'm gonna develop it to completion anyway :D < 1294785958 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good < 1294785966 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only because clue sucks and not because there's anything wrong with the editor, yes? < 1294785981 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: no, clue is amazing < 1294785983 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my editor sucks and ROCKS! < 1294785987 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and sucks < 1294786023 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird man speak with forked tongue. need whiskey and migraine pill for good medicine. < 1294786034 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone tell me which books of Known Space are any good. < 1294786036 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :concur < 1294786063 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Someone point me to a list of the reasons X sucks. Someone tell me what subset of Y is good. < 1294786065 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: * < 1294786073 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All of them? < 1294786096 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about the infamous third book in the Ringworld series? < 1294786097 0 :Wamanuz!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1294786109 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=132717 Nice. < 1294786110 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Someone point me to a list of the reasons X sucks. Someone tell me what subset of Y is good. ← BLATANT LIES < 1294786119 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: What do you mean, "what about it"? < 1294786120 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FastRender: more efficient chunk queue processing. < 1294786120 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UniText: a completely rewritten text renderer. It's faster and supports Unicode, although the Unicode font files are not included with this release. < 1294786120 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fewer glClears: erasing the entire screen is expensive. This mod avoids it when possible. < 1294786122 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Better chunk drawing code: Removing a few useless transforms from the chunk rendering code lets all visible chunks be drawn in a straightforward manner. < 1294786127 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like this Scaevolus guy. < 1294786149 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: INCIDENTALLY, can you buy me a new GPU? < 1294786156 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I plan to configure Minecraft to be utterly insane soon. < 1294786158 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, i.e. it's infamous for being a perfect instance of quality being inversely proportional to place in the series? < 1294786199 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An HD texture pack if I find one I like, far distance, fancy rendering, Better Light, that shader mod with depth of field, perhaps also with that lighting shader if I can find it and make it work together... < 1294786205 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mipmapping if it helps. < 1294786253 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1294786255 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I don't recall it being bad, though. < 1294786258 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my 50x50 trap works < 1294786269 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Definitely not as good as the first, mind. < 1294786291 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've get approx 24 sulfur in 15 min < 1294786319 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: lol noob < 1294786338 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :??? < 1294786344 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiJh5fpWPAo < 1294786346 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have 1 sulfer after 2 weeks playing < 1294786353 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: kill creepers < 1294786357 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and build a mob trap < 1294786361 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :again, read the wiki :P < 1294786391 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: build that and then come back < 1294786395 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the hell is happening in that video! LOL < 1294786409 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1294786417 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reason they die is because of falling from such a height < 1294786424 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1294786428 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: watch the rest of it :) < 1294786429 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ummm.... that must have taken a while to build < 1294786434 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: basically: they don't spawn on steps < 1294786438 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the ground below is safe < 1294786442 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then the huge dome catches them < 1294786444 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the only way is down < 1294786449 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they walk down and then fall inside < 1294786457 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :resulting in loot < 1294786460 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's crazy wtf < 1294786469 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how the hell did he have the patience to build it < 1294786469 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since they're spawning all the time at night, they fall down at a crazy rate :) < 1294786470 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1294786471 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1294786473 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they don't walk down < 1294786475 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's water < 1294786477 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously < 1294786479 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to carry them < 1294786481 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: who knows :D < 1294786495 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tl;dr mobs spawn in big water slide all night, ride uncontrollably, fall down, die, drop loot. < 1294786550 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: building mob traps is not so hard though < 1294786567 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: basically, you want an easily steppable-upon bit of water that mobs will go into, which then leads down to < 1294786568 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C C < 1294786569 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: @ this clip... i thought that mobs don't spawn on water < 1294786571 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where space is nothing < 1294786575 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the two Cs are catcuses < 1294786581 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: dunno... i think they do < 1294786590 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: but besides, there's those little sticky out bits of cobbles fro them to spawn on anyway < 1294786591 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*for < 1294786595 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: this crushes the mobs < 1294786599 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: and they'll drop loot into the stream < 1294786603 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: which you then route into your base < 1294786607 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, FWIW, that Optimine thing has mucked up Better Light. < 1294786614 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: you apply better light afterwards < 1294786617 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: not before < 1294786624 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: so basically mobs will keep walking in, getting crushed by the cactus, and their loot will float into a pool in your base < 1294786632 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: that won't be hugely fast, but it'll be pretty good < 1294786685 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: oh and < 1294786694 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: look for natural cobblestone while mining, and also mossy cobblestone < 1294786699 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: it'll be a dungeon < 1294786702 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok < 1294786702 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: with a mob spawner inside < 1294786711 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: now consider: dig out the floor beneath that mob spawner < 1294786725 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: so much that they die of fall damage < 1294786727 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and route a path in < 1294786729 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8xs53VmFjc neat < 1294786733 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: mob spawners only spawn one type of monster < 1294786734 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but.. < 1294786749 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[...these people are trying to make money from an idea that does not belong to them.]] — An Idiot on the MC boards. < 1294786761 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: e.g. if it's a spider spawner < 1294786764 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: you could get shitloads of string < 1294786862 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: that door machine is hilarious < 1294786877 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: if you tab away it sounds like venetian snares... sorta < 1294787339 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, nice video < 1294787631 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1294787668 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: btw: http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/evwk8/does_anyone_know_how_to_make_a_very_simple_but/ < 1294787671 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: stuff about mob traps < 1294787716 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1294788004 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guide to minecraft: http://i.imgur.com/i1YWC.png < 1294788333 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is Notch going to remove indefinitely burning logs? < 1294788350 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The probability of that is somewhere in the region of 0. < 1294788358 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? < 1294788379 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because there's something like seventeen hundred billion fireplaces, and also, very little reason to fix it :P < 1294788456 0 :marcules!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: - < 1294788470 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: pics of your trap? < 1294788471 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: swatted to death < 1294788542 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what are your thoughts on Clean? < 1294788572 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an interesting curiosity and — mere curiosity. uniqueness typing is interesting. < 1294788577 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :learn haskell instead. < 1294788594 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also clean has some REALLY weird bits < 1294788594 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like < 1294788598 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you write (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b] < 1294788598 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as < 1294788601 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a -> b) [a] -> [b] < 1294788602 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why??? < 1294788608 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't even make any sense and takes special casing < 1294788617 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, are Clean functions curried? < 1294788622 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1294788631 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also (x:xs) is [x:xs], which, again, means that a single list with the single element (x:xs) is [[x:xs]]... which is just plain confusing and stupid < 1294788636 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also infix o weird me out < 1294788640 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but these are all syntactical differences. < 1294788750 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe uniqueness typing is what will bring me back into the purely functional world < 1294788754 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yea that's stupid < 1294788757 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Or maybe I'll be bored to tears] < 1294788771 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: stop talking in trivial lists. < 1294788811 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I trapped some cows in a cave but they disappeared :( < 1294788817 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i kind of feel embarrassed for Sgeo on behalf of... everyone < 1294788818 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: whut < 1294788819 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: howso < 1294788821 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it not possible to make a farm? < 1294788833 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just dug this small cave into a hill and trapped the cows in there < 1294788843 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: Of course it is: http://imgur.com/a/pt8v5 < 1294788845 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what cheater99 said was a joke, afaict. < 1294788850 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose they might die in low light. < 1294788852 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1294788853 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: And? < 1294788871 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha I need one of these < 1294788877 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I wonder why they disappeared < 1294788899 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: try building a small but ~5 deep pit instead < 1294788903 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and put a torch on the walls < 1294788904 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :get them in there and see < 1294788914 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: if you walked too far away i guess they could disappear... but you'd have to walk a few chunks < 1294788916 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so probably not < 1294788918 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*quite a few < 1294788921 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh :( < 1294788934 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yeah I roam very far so that might not be worth doing then < 1294788938 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: lol no < 1294788940 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: i doubt it < 1294788948 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: it's like 16 chunks < 1294788954 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so like < 1294788957 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :walking 256 away maybe < 1294788961 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess it's easy but < 1294788971 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: i think i'm wrong < 1294789014 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Mobs spawn no closer than 24 blocks and disappear if they are more than 4 chunks away from the player." < 1294789015 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-elliott: why not just play farmville? < 1294789020 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: ok if you walked far away. < 1294789027 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: because minecraft is more than farming? :P < 1294789032 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: build a mob trap :D < 1294789064 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im going to sleep ;) < 1294789066 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, use minecraft to make mafiaville or whatever they call it < 1294789074 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gangstaville? < 1294789084 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I finished building a pyramid though < 1294789089 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: how big? < 1294789104 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's only like 6 high < 1294789132 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: really? that shouldn't have took that long to build... unless it has like a flat top and is really wide < 1294789137 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :screenshot? < 1294789150 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it's just a tiny pyramid < 1294789152 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should now recreate von dniken's mythology around it < 1294789167 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: how long did it take to build? < 1294789183 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: dunno I did other stuff in between < 1294789191 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1294789204 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there like < 1294789208 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :automation for minecraft? < 1294789230 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: interesting < 1294789234 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: there's redstone. < 1294789247 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bluestone would let you build a hideously complex autominer but it doesn't exist and never will >:) < 1294789268 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :minecraft just sounds real fucking boring to me in that you have to sit around clicking stuff < 1294789288 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like killing wild pigs in a forrest in wow < 1294789288 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1294789304 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 experience point per click or something equally dumb < 1294789311 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: umm what < 1294789313 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not that i ever played wow, but you know what i mean) < 1294789315 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't kill pigs generally < 1294789316 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1294789328 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well er no because in MC most of the time is spent doing shit you want < 1294789330 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yeah, but that's what it feels like < 1294789331 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. building shit < 1294789334 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it doesn't < 1294789337 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you've clearly never played < 1294789341 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1294789348 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i've seen many vids now < 1294789356 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :% of people who haven't played minecraft and think it's probably lame: 99 < 1294789364 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :% of people who have played minecraft and think it's lame: much less < 1294789373 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody cares, honestly. < 1294789386 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :generally in the family of minecraft-likes you'd expect a scripted way of doing things in accelerated time, or at least without user interaction < 1294789394 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you not think everyone has already heard "OMG IT SOUNDS BORING AND LAME" 100 times before < 1294789414 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not trying to change your mind or anything < 1294789415 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DURP DURP MY INFORMED OPINION IS THAT IT'S LAME < 1294789422 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or like "tell you it's lame" < 1294789424 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: OH MAN THAT'S NOVEL < 1294789432 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean literally lame though. < 1294789436 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has a limp. < 1294789437 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: in response: no, automating such things would not make the game more fun. < 1294789444 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: So THAT'S what the view bobbing is. < 1294789444 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm just expressing what my impression is and wondering why you guys think different < 1294789446 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's all < 1294789454 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: 'cuz it's fun < 1294789459 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ya k < 1294789464 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no reason to get upset there < 1294789468 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not upset < 1294789481 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'M NOT UPSET OK????????? < 1294789483 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1294789492 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, right, everyone who disagrees with you is upset < 1294789500 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, i'm just joking around < 1294789528 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mining can be fun enough because you find caverns and dungeons, exploring caves is fun and often screenshot-worthy, exploring terrain is fun and often leads to good locations for build projects, building structures are fun, building houses is fun, building machines with redstone is fun, fighting mobs is... uh... terrifying < 1294789532 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1294789533 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so terrifying < 1294789541 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ya i can see exploring mines is fun < 1294789562 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so can exploring terrain be < 1294789566 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exploring mines? you build mines, you mean caverns :P < 1294789570 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yes < 1294789574 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or other people's mines < 1294789588 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also fun is building a forest-top village < 1294789591 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but like.. i'm surprised there aren't scripts for say building houses or pools < 1294789591 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did I also mention that people who play Minecraft are torps and hurpadurp? < 1294789598 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that just feels so droll tbh < 1294789638 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a torp? < 1294789642 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that like a tarp? < 1294789708 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pfff < 1294789711 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such a torp question to ask. < 1294789716 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HORP TORP < 1294789754 0 :drakhan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1294789768 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: man why aren't there machines that automate pushing pieces of lego together < 1294789778 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that just feels so droll tbh < 1294789826 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are < 1294789832 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: would you use them < 1294789842 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: THAT SLEEP THING IS WORKING WELL FOR YOU HUH < 1294789846 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i would just use big pieces < 1294789854 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1294789866 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: ahh, so you'd rather play MINECRAFT: FOR KIDS! < 1294789876 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Roblox? < 1294789879 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd play minecraft duplo < 1294789882 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :minecraft is for kids X) < 1294789888 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that reminds me, I want to try Roblox >.> < 1294789888 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with BIG pieces < 1294789907 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :designed for 1-3 years of age. < 1294789928 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since, like, i love to remit like that. < 1294789947 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you keep using that word etc. < 1294790035 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so my superdrive STILL isn't here, what is this INSOLENCE < 1294790063 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1294790126 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to make sure the infidels pay with their lives < 1294790150 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: what word? < 1294790199 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1294790204 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :remit < 1294790241 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do? < 1294790255 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyways, some cool tricks here: http://blog.ksplice.com/2011/01/solving-problems-with-proc/ < 1294790257 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, but i do not think it means what you think it means. < 1294790305 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a remission is when you go back < 1294790308 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A UNIX process refers to its open files using integers called file descriptors. When we say "standard input", we really mean "file descriptor 0". So we can use /proc/self/fd/0 as an explicit name for standard input:" < 1294790309 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lolfail < 1294790310 0 :hiato!~nine@clam.leg.uct.ac.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1294790311 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/dev/fd/0 < 1294790333 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: that's irrelevant, the fact is that afaik nobody uses "remit" like that < 1294790341 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you, like, got cancer at the age of 3 and still have it < 1294790345 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I'm remitting back to BEFORE" < 1294790362 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Good news! I'm in remission!" "That's great!" "Yes, I love being three years old!" < 1294790365 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, still not working < 1294790367 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but there's a technique in psychology called remission < 1294790369 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't there? < 1294790384 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it regression you are thinking of