00:00:02 objects are pages 00:00:07 morphisms are ... redirections! 00:00:14 youcan be the next paul graham 00:00:19 lol 00:00:37 i'll use lots of template haskell, so nobody can read it without first studying every macro 00:00:39 elliott, what's your prediction about Haskell? 00:00:40 like paul graham did! 00:00:45 Sgeo: 00:00:49 @quote web frameworks 00:00:49 No quotes for this person. BOB says: You seem to have forgotten your passwd, enter another! 00:00:52 @quote 2009 00:00:53 int-e says: I propose that all of f, g, h and i be made illegal. (referring to http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/haskell-prime/wiki/StricterLabelledFieldSyntax as it existed on 2009-10-05) 00:00:57 @quote 2009 00:00:57 int-e says: I propose that all of f, g, h and i be made illegal. (referring to http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/haskell-prime/wiki/StricterLabelledFieldSyntax as it existed on 2009-10-05) 00:01:03 @quote Combinatorial 00:01:03 ehird says: 2009: The Year of the Combinatorial Explosion of Haskell Web Frameworks. Also, the Linux Desktop. 00:01:05 Sgeo: ^ 00:01:15 ok so it's not 2009 any more, but who cares 00:01:24 There's a Haskell web framework in the works, isn't there? 00:01:30 There are thousands :P 00:01:43 There's only one that I heard of >.> 00:01:51 http://snapframework.com/ 00:01:51 http://docs.yesodweb.com/ 00:01:55 http://happstack.com/index.html 00:02:26 Sgeo: happstack is the maintained fork of the dead-but-famous HAppS 00:02:31 http://happs.org/ 00:02:38 About throwing up that weetabix 00:02:53 Ilari: But Weetabix is delicious! 00:03:00 Delicious like CEREAL BLOCK 00:03:42 j-invariant: lol, what have I done, I'm actually writing example code for a web framework now :( 00:03:46 i think this makes me a bad person 00:03:49 but at least i'm optimising for insanity 00:03:55 marketing: 00:03:59 The perfect web framework for type theorists! 00:04:26 Ph.D. getting you nowhere? Have to take a job in the web development industry? We feel your pain. And we're going to give you some more! 00:04:58 Snap's the only one I heard of 00:05:12 Probably because Snap is the one with the obnoxious Ruby-style marketing flash. 00:05:39 j-invariant: D.entity [d| data Item = Item { text :: String } |] 00:05:48 j-invariant: guess what this does? hint: the answer is not "define text :: Item -> String" 00:05:55 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 00:06:17 (that would be the obvious thing) 00:06:21 (and therefore wrong, in this context) 00:06:44 elliott, better than haXe, which seems to be an entire LANGUAGE based on marketting flash 00:07:29 elliott well it must creaet an HTML tag for this data type 00:07:33 j-invariant: LOL 00:07:39 j-invariant: no, no, better, this has nothing to do with the web, this particular bit 00:07:46 hehe 00:07:47 j-invariant: what it does is make text a data-accessor 00:08:00 i.e. http://hackage.haskell.org/package/data-accessor 00:08:06 so you have to do item^.text 00:08:15 but hey, that's USEFUL! totally useful! 00:08:23 and overloading the normal definition syntax? 00:08:26 totally the right way to go about it 00:08:43 j-invariant: can you reassure me that I won't accidentally invent something useful here :/ 00:09:18 elliott: THE NEXT PAUL GRAHAM 00:09:31 actually what i'm doing here as a joke is disturbingly like what Yesod does 00:09:42 that's web for ya 00:09:54 no, no, it's clearly proof that I cannot avoid injecting my genius into things 00:10:04 if i continue, i will have the world's first good web framework! 00:10:10 um that's another way to look at it :P 00:10:19 then, I will make shit smell like flowers and taste like lemonade 00:10:29 even if that's somewhat less impressive 00:15:35 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 00:16:27 -!- Oklopol has joined. 00:17:12 Oklopol is an poklo ol, confirm/deny? 00:18:20 j-invariant: LOL, it looks like just about everything I wrote as a joke is a yesod core feature 00:18:29 What we're learning here is: Haskell, lol 00:18:41 elliott: Oh that's it, you are SO sued for slander. 00:18:52 Gregor: Sure thing, Mr. Weetabix. 00:18:58 rofn 00:19:32 elliott: I think you mean Mr. Oklopol's-Lawyer. -stein. 00:19:53 j-invariant: Rolling On the Floor, Neglecting parts of my life by playing minecraft? 00:20:14 hahah Yes 00:21:13 j-invariant: do you know what makes me SAD? Two-way parsers aren't powerful enough to parse most things 00:21:24 is that a theorem? 00:21:26 (single combinator definition a la parsec but only Applicative that can both parse and deparse) 00:21:30 j-invariant: someone proved it to me on #haskell once :-D 00:21:32 elliott: SOUNDS LIKE IT'S TIME FOR A THREE-WAY THEN. 00:21:42 Gregor: Parsing, deparsing, and ... ARSING?! 00:21:44 elliott: stop destroying my dreams 00:21:52 j-invariant: i know it's horrible, i wanted to write all parsers like that forever 00:21:57 -!- cheater- has joined. 00:22:29 elliott: Heww yeah. 00:22:50 j-invariant: (Foo =:<= digit) <: digit <: digit 00:22:55 elliott: I'm so glad your dialect has a convenient rhyme :P 00:23:01 -> 123 is (Foo '2' '3') and vice versa 00:23:06 Gregor: wat 00:23:23 elliott: "arse" 00:23:28 Gregor: X-D 00:23:33 Arse arse arse. 00:23:35 ARSE 00:25:10 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:26:15 elliott: great now I have all the Obsidian I need -- just have to get a pick to mine it 00:26:35 j-invariant: FAIL 00:26:44 j-invariant: you're meant to use buckets of lava and water to construct the portal in-place 00:26:46 using cobbles to guard it 00:26:51 that way, you don't have to mine it later 00:26:53 actually wait a sec 00:26:53 which is exceedingly tedious 00:26:55 20-30s per block 00:27:04 you are meant to *create the obsidian in the right place* the first time :) 00:27:19 elliott: I thought of thhat 00:27:22 make sure to see http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Portal for how to make a portal and also how to cut corners if you want to avoid using too much obsidian 00:28:26 hey 00:28:30 Vorpal: obsidian is renewable 00:28:32 "Even when a portal is built with only 10 blocks of Obsidian (by leaving out the corners), the portal frame spawned on the other side will have the full 14 blocks." 00:28:54 -!- Behold has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:29:11 j-invariant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUxhO9VLKPY 00:29:27 Contrary to public belief[2], portals do not conserve momentum. 00:29:57 I love that song :D 00:33:33 http://pastie.org/1468410 maybe somebody know what this piece does in prolog 00:33:38 or how to use it? 00:33:55 * pikhq *still* finds it somewhat odd that the Super Bowl is actually broadcast outside of the US... 00:34:13 Are there that many non-Americans that give a crap? 00:34:50 nooga: Impossible to say without the context, dude. But it looks like some kind of proof-generating system. 00:35:04 G'night. 00:35:09 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:35:15 They don't even air the same ads! 00:35:20 but yes, unfortunately, there are 00:35:32 Okay, well. There is Canada, which actually has *reason* to care. 00:35:49 Namely, they also play football. 00:37:33 oh, dunno if anyone else cares 00:38:33 Well, it certainly gets *shown* elsewhere. 00:38:56 How many Brits are likely to give a damn, though? 00:39:33 nooga: that's a prolog interpreter 00:39:50 Dominion episode1 00:40:25 i'd like to modify that to produce proof trees 00:40:31 but i don't know prolog 00:41:40 hmm constructive prolog 00:43:56 I can't imagine what a proof tree would look like for prolog 00:44:06 basically and execution trace 00:44:11 yes 00:44:20 that's what i'd like 00:44:32 but i don't get it :D 00:46:24 what ! does? 00:47:08 ! is the hardest part of prolog to understand. 00:47:35 http://cs.union.edu/~striegnk/learn-prolog-now/html/node96.html 00:47:35 Basically they had implemented prolog in a very specific way, and exploited the way it was done to add this new ! thing 00:47:39 and what is X here? 00:47:50 the consequence is that ! makes no sense 00:48:58 They way they implemented prolog was to have it every time a choice can be made they push that set of branches to a stack 00:49:28 ! erases all the alternatives of the top most choice point 00:51:58 -!- zzo38 has joined. 00:52:18 * Sgeo cuts j-invariant 00:53:16 Now I made up a program to track the dynamic memory usage of other program. Is there better ways? 00:54:25 man 1 ps 00:54:54 What will happen if I eat clementines as my only fruit? 00:55:15 [Currently, I'm not eating fruits on a regular basis] 00:56:05 Well, you'll be at a much lower risk of scurvy. 00:56:07 pikhq: Is it answer to me? 00:56:13 zzo38: Yeah. 00:56:36 I am on Windows, though. (The program is cross-platform, however.) 00:56:56 (I do not like Windows that much; UNIX is better, but Windows is what I have, so I use it.) 00:57:14 I guess that depends on "topmost"; I mean, for a(X,Y,Z) :- b(X), b(Y), !, b(Z) where b(X) can produce multiple choices, the ! will make it not backtrack to try out different values for either X or Y; not just cut the latest possible branching point where the value for Y was determined. (It will also not try some hypothetical other a(X,Y,Z) :- whatever rule it otherwise could.) 00:58:06 This is the program: http://sprunge.us/IHEa You can tell me if I did something wrong. 01:00:35 Why do humans peel certain fruits? 01:01:24 because the rind is difficult and/or unrewarding to eat 01:01:35 Sgeo: Probably from not liking eating some of the outsides. 01:03:26 Non-human animals are presumably ok with it 01:03:58 ^^not a good reason to do what non-human animals do 01:04:59 Another reason might be if it is dirty outside. 01:05:07 But, some people do like to eat the peeling. 01:05:11 Sgeo: Mostly just preference. 01:05:14 (Sometimes separately from the inside part) 01:07:08 Sgeo: Though some fruits are actually inedible without peeling. 01:07:22 pikhq, how does that make sense? 01:07:38 pikhq: Then don't eat it! 01:07:53 What do non-human animals do with such fruits? 01:08:06 Or did these fruits evolve after mankind started peeling fruits? 01:08:49 Sgeo: That's "inedible to humans". 01:08:56 Ah 01:10:28 And of course, you must remember that most human-consumed foods are the result of artificial selection. 01:10:55 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 01:12:09 (fun fact: the bananas we typically cultivate & consume cannot survive without human intervention!) 01:15:27 (okay, this is actually true of an *insane* number of species...) 01:16:27 THAT'S BECAUSE THEY WERE CREATED BY GOD FOR US 01:17:10 actually, when you mention bananas, it's worth noting that animals do typically peel bananas 01:17:14 Gregor: God created the turkey-physically-incapable-of-having-sex? 01:17:39 coppro: How in the world do non-primates handle that? 01:18:06 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:18:26 pikhq: Either they eat the bananas or don't eat them or do weird things to them? 01:18:36 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:18:53 coppro: "Peel bananas", specifically. 01:19:18 pikhq: my suggestion was that they do not 01:19:20 Ah. 01:24:41 ghh 01:28:32 * variable belongs to the Church of Google anyways 01:28:51 I think I'm being recruited 01:30:45 variable: Why did you belong to the Church of Google? 01:31:40 zzo38, well god has to be omniscient right? and doesn't google fit that criteria ? 01:31:54 also google answers my prayers - whatever I want to know - it knows 01:32:08 also - google is all good - it can do no evil 01:32:22 google MUST be god 01:32:57 variable: Google does not know everything. Many things I find it hard to find at all no matter what. 01:34:55 zzo38, then you must not be a True Believer. Have more trust in your query and you shall learn 01:34:57 I don't use Google very often. 01:35:11 Tsk tsk. 01:35:16 Trust The Google. 01:35:21 Love The Google. 01:35:31 Give all thine data to The Google and The Google shall give all its love to you. 01:35:59 I more often use Wikipedia to search for information than I use Google. 01:36:53 zzo38, wikipedia is a saint in the Church of Google 01:37:42 variable: I don't care who they are a saint of or not. 01:37:57 Also, I use a lot of different things. 01:38:43 I will ask on IRC, and search some things on Veronica. And I have some books, I will look there. Or, looking at the files I have in my computer. 01:38:54 But I do sometimes search Google, as well. 01:40:07 zzo38, your taking the fun out of it 01:40:10 tis called a joke 01:40:16 * variable does all those things too 01:40:18 but meh 01:40:38 I do not use Google as much as most other people, however. 01:43:10 zzo38, tbh I'm finding that google is getting worse and worse 01:43:28 variable: I also find it getting worse and worse. In more than one way. 01:56:30 -!- copumpkin has joined. 02:16:10 -!- acetoline has joined. 02:26:40 -!- calamari has joined. 02:32:18 Invent a chess variant involving some esolangs. 02:33:57 zzo38: ever play Crobots? 02:34:44 calamari: No. 02:34:54 I think I have heard of it though. 02:36:19 anyhow, HQ9+ could be the pawn :P 02:37:06 Yes, if the game is designed to work in a way that is like that. 02:37:55 I wasn't really serious 02:38:10 Other ideas are: Make a game based on 2-dimensional esolangs. Make a game with some hidden information. Make a game involving cards with commands to execute on the board. 02:38:45 calamari: Yes, it certainly does not seem sensible that you could make a chess variant where HQ9+ could be the pawn (or where any esolang "could be the pawn"). 02:39:35 It can be a game with normal chess board/chess pieces, or one with a different size of board and different pieces. 02:39:36 anyhow, what I liked about crobots was that you could make some complicated program that did all sorts of stuf.. but then it would get killed by a simple program because the complicated one was bloated and slow in comparison 02:52:18 Make a chess variant involving pieces with the INTERCAL commands on them. 02:53:31 I think it says something about me that I generally have to close dozens of Wikipedia pages every day... 02:53:50 Not sure what, though. 02:54:15 doesn't strike me as a very unique problem :) 02:54:39 Probably a pretty common problem, really. 02:55:12 I hardly ever have more than two Wikipedia pages open at once. 02:59:20 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving). 03:00:12 sorry I'd have to agree.. when I get on wikipedia, if I get more than a few tabs opened, I'm doomed, because that means I'll be on there all night as my tabs grow to infinity 03:13:44 Please tell me whether or not this is good enough: http://sprunge.us/NXPL 03:14:41 hmm, you seem to have pasted a tex document and not a runnable or compileable program 03:15:37 olsner: It is compileable program, but it requires Enhanced CWEB. Also, it won't compile without TeXnicard, because of the line that says #include "texnicard.c" 03:16:02 I mean just to read to see if the memory usage stuff is workable or if there is something wrong with it. 03:19:14 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 03:37:02 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:39:05 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 241 seconds). 03:57:53 RAM. Cloud. 03:57:55 Why 04:04:41 -!- oerjan has joined. 04:05:33 Sgeo: Because eCloud Technologies is going to let us enter the Internet Age! 04:06:23 I am absolutely bursting to tell people about the awesome thing I just did. 04:06:28 But alas, I cannot. 04:06:39 (For about a month and a half) 04:06:53 Gregor: NDA? 04:06:59 Nope 04:07:42 Too awesome for our brains to comprehend, and we need to wait for your newfound singularity to improve our brains enough to be able to understand it? 04:07:51 Closer to that. 04:08:10 (Not that much closer, but the competition is "NDA" :P 04:08:11 ) 04:08:24 :P 04:08:39 Hey, "NDA" is at least *plausible*. 04:08:56 Still not close :P 04:09:02 Gregor finally made contact with aliens 04:09:12 Even closer! 04:09:36 (Still not close at all, but indisputably closer) 04:09:52 Gregor finally made contact with ... something 04:10:01 Less close :P 04:10:27 ...the aliens are the close part? 04:10:49 Gregor did something with an FFI (hence the closeness of "aliens") 04:11:10 Mmm ... about equally close. In the "still not close at all" sense. 04:11:25 Gregor did something. 04:11:31 EXACTLY! 04:11:53 damn you Sgeo now we cannot get closer! 04:12:31 * oerjan suddenly remembers ais523's aversion to "damn you" 04:16:09 DAMNATION BE UPON ÞEE 04:16:41 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 04:25:26 -!- TLUL has changed nick to TLUL|afk. 05:34:26 elliott did stuff with Factor 05:34:27 huh 05:50:01 Sgeo, hasn't he done something in nearly every non-crap language you heard of (and possibly a few of the crap ones too) 05:50:33 no 05:50:39 he hasn't actually done anything about them 05:50:50 just yelled at us about how dumb we are for not having done it for him 05:51:06 Probably he ignored the mediocre and tried out the real crappy ones. I seem to remember he tried to code something in "Plain English" just for the laughs. 05:52:00 coppro, that might be a bit of an extreme point of view. The truth is probably in between 05:52:38 does your leg hurt yet? if not I'll pull it harder 05:52:54 coppro, oh right. I just woke up :P 05:53:23 coppro, besides if I can't clearly detect humour I default to taking a statement as serious 05:53:32 I think I'm going to look at Io again 05:54:40 Sgeo, why are you so language-ambivalent? 05:55:00 Sgeo: the language or the moon? 05:55:05 I assure you the latter is more interesting 05:55:09 o.O 05:55:18 coppro, :D 05:55:25 Why the Io hate? 05:55:37 it's not Io hate 05:55:50 It's just that Io is friggin awesome 05:56:07 coppro, not as awesome as Europe or Titan iirc? 05:56:11 it's the most active body in the solar system 05:56:12 "That's because he's speaking in French the entire series, and the Universal Translator turns it into vaguely british sounding English." On Jean-Luc Picard. 05:56:16 :D 05:56:19 coppro, oh okay 05:56:19 :D:D:D 05:56:28 pikhq, hah 05:56:53 pikhq, where is that from? 05:57:10 Is there an "anti-block" in Io? 05:57:30 Force this piece of code to be executed before the surrounding function looks at it 05:57:33 Vorpal: TVtropes. 05:57:47 Io loses one ton a second of material to the Jovian magnetosphere 05:57:49 pikhq, oh. I would have gussed memory alpha for something that absurd ;P 05:58:06 Vorpal: It's not absurd in the context of the series, it really isn't. 05:58:13 coppro, wow 05:58:24 So, when does Io die? 05:58:28 pikhq, well I watched (part of) the series. 05:58:42 pikhq, and I still think it is rather absurd :P 05:58:48 Vorpal: Did Riker have a beard? 05:59:01 pikhq, seen both with and without that 05:59:03 mostly with it 05:59:20 Ah, good, you didn't soley get the pain of the first season. 05:59:37 pikhq, some of the first season was okay 05:59:44 the first season was painful 05:59:53 not the Q stuff though 06:00:01 It ranged from mediocre to OH HOLY GOD THAT HURTS. 06:00:08 pikhq, yeah 06:00:11 With the exception of the first appearance of Q. 06:00:20 Which was put in as *filler*... 06:00:22 pikhq, indeed that was okay, the second was not 06:00:47 To pad the series opening out to two hours. 06:00:54 anyway. Off to university now. 06:01:04 Is it just me, or is Io a bit of an anti-Haskell? 06:01:12 TNG was at its best when it was full of philosophy 06:01:25 In Haskell, you can (kind of) substitute definitions for .. defined things 06:01:31 It was at its worst when it was trying to be TOS with a different cast. 06:02:13 In most languages, you don't expect a difference between passing in an expression, and a name containing the value of the resulting expression 06:02:29 I know there's a term for that, mentioned in SICP, but I don;t know what it is 06:02:34 Io throws that out the window 06:02:54 Sgeo: As does C. Macros! 06:03:30 Sgeo: referential transparency 06:03:35 and uh, you're wrong 06:03:42 Hmm? 06:03:44 referential transparency is a rare feature 06:04:20 What I mean is, in most languages: 06:04:23 -!- variable has joined. 06:04:24 a = foo() 06:04:27 b(a) 06:04:28 coppro: Really? Most languages at least have it for pass-by-value. 06:04:31 is the same as 06:04:37 b(foo()) 06:04:44 oh, that's not referential transparency 06:04:49 referential transparency is 06:04:53 That's not referential transparency, but there's a name for it in SICP 06:04:56 I think 06:05:02 I haven't actually read it >.> 06:05:08 b(foo()) != b(2) where foo() returns 2 06:05:23 pikhq: no language with side-effects does 06:05:34 hi 06:05:42 coppro: Oh, dur, I should've specified "modulo side effects". 06:05:56 Can I construe this conversation as a defense for Io? 06:05:58 But that makes it nearly meaningless as a distinction. 06:06:03 pikhq: yeah 06:06:19 I cannot imagine a language that did not have referential transparency modulo side effects 06:06:35 Sgeo: prease to be explraining preblerm 06:06:59 Io does not have referencial transparency modulo side effects. 06:07:06 *referential 06:07:08 O_o 06:07:17 k I'm going to bed now 06:07:20 coppro: Tcl doesn't always. 06:07:29 I may be misunderstanding 06:07:43 pikhq: my god 06:07:44 Granted, you have to be doing nasty things to it for that to come up. 06:07:48 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 06:08:08 About on par with heavy, heavy macroing in Lisp. 06:08:14 -!- acetoline has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 06:08:41 (oh, the joys of a *first-class stack*) 06:09:00 I think the thing with Io is, every call can be to what another language would call a "macro", and it might be easier to write macros in Io 06:09:05 (Haven't begun experimenting yet) 06:09:15 Erm, not first-class. 06:09:15 pikhq: until your compiler is first-class, you aren't doing it right :P 06:09:24 But... Readily accessible call stack. 06:09:47 coppro: Sadly, the dodekalogue is not modifiable. 06:10:16 coppro, this is an if statement in Io: 06:10:16 if(b == 0, c + 1, d) 06:10:43 Wow, that's not nearly as revealing as I want 06:10:58 System args foreach(k, v, write("'", v, "'\n")) 06:11:17 Sgeo: Looks like side effects to me. :P 06:11:36 Hmm... Now the Lagerholm estimate is 19th. Wonder if that 15th was processing error or if he added couple of days for processing delay. 06:12:23 Probably processing delay. 06:12:45 people select(age < 30) 06:13:25 As APNIC is *definitely* below his declared threshold right now. 06:27:01 -!- FireFly has joined. 06:31:27 In Io, strings have encodings 06:31:37 That... just makes no sense 06:32:00 Encodings refer to the physical representation, not to.. an inherit property of Unicode text 07:04:07 I am suddenly reminded of Haskellian laziness 07:05:03 Praise be to the almightly lambda. 07:05:07 Almighty, even. 07:11:46 Thinking that Unicode isn't superset of everything? 07:14:26 n/m my comment on Haskellian laziness 07:21:31 -!- acetoline has joined. 07:36:02 * Sgeo likes how Googleable Ioke is 07:40:09 * Sgeo likes the distinction between the place where methods accessible from anywhere go (Ground) and the [kind of] top level Object (Origin) 07:41:24 Wait, it might be DefaultBehavior, not Ground, I'm not sure 07:44:17 HOLY. FUCKING. CRAP. 07:44:22 * Sgeo starts worshipping Ioke 07:46:00 http://ioke.org/wiki/index.php/Guide#Let 07:46:18 "Of course, it's a power that can be abused, but it gives lots of interesting possibilities for expression." 07:46:32 Yeah, well, it prevents poisoning of the global state 07:46:59 * Sgeo can think of potential bad interactions though 07:53:11 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:01:47 excitement of the day: can Sgeo manage to break up with Ioke before elliott wakes up and modifies shutup? 08:03:14 oerjan: We should have some sort of a betting pool. 08:03:28 yay 08:04:01 Actually, let might not be as useful for what I was imagining 08:11:15 -!- TLUL|afk has quit (Quit: *disappears in a puff of orange smoke*). 08:13:58 Hurr... APNIC has allocated over 8M addresses just this month... 08:25:31 That's a pretty insane allocation rate. 08:42:06 -!- Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving). 08:53:58 -!- choochter has joined. 09:01:14 Now the estimate is 20th... Anyway, one would expect the allocation request very soon (or it may already have been sent)... 09:03:33 If the threshold is 2, one would expect allocation request to be sent today... 10:34:37 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 10:45:48 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:47:40 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 11:05:48 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:07:35 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:07:39 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 11:15:06 hmm, that was pleasantly unexpected 11:24:04 email conversation goes vaguely like this: service X seems to do everything we want but that would violate the terms of service you seem to be right, I'll look for a different service 11:24:14 this does not fit in with the typical stereotype of an employer 11:24:35 (although companies tend to be more worried about doing something illegal than individual people, as they can be relatively large targets to sue) 11:25:23 -!- acetoline has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:25:37 also, wtf?: http://yro.slashdot.org/story/11/01/16/2110254/Facebook-Opens-Up-Home-Addresses-and-Phone-Numbers 11:26:11 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:27:49 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 11:46:11 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:47:49 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 12:06:10 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:07:47 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 12:10:09 -!- wth has joined. 12:12:10 -!- wth has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:26:09 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:27:46 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 12:32:27 -!- wth has joined. 12:32:42 -!- wth has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:33:08 -!- wth has joined. 12:33:19 -!- wth has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:38:18 -!- wth has joined. 12:39:06 -!- wth has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:41:36 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:22:45 -!- ineiros has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 13:23:11 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:23:34 -!- cheater- has joined. 13:33:13 -!- ineiros has joined. 14:03:35 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:13:04 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 14:14:08 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:24:13 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:24:29 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:24:55 -!- Tritonio has joined. 15:19:42 -!- elliott has joined. 15:19:45 http://i.imgur.com/5rNti.jpg 15:20:25 23:44:17 HOLY. FUCKING. CRAP. 15:20:25 23:44:22 * Sgeo starts worshipping Ioke 15:20:26 sigh 15:20:36 "dad blamed"? 15:21:46 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 15:22:21 % This program is public domain, but if you combine it with GPL program, 15:22:21 % the combination is licensed by GPL. 15:22:27 zzo38: That is not even close to legally valid. 15:22:32 pikhq: You be in charge of telling him why not. 15:22:35 Well. 15:22:41 It's either trivially true, or utterly invalid. 15:24:20 17:40:07 zzo38, your taking the fun out of it 15:24:25 variable: you're taking the 're out of you're 15:24:41 elliott, hrm? 15:24:51 *you're 15:24:52 :) 15:25:04 elliott, fuck you 15:25:12 gee, thanks 15:25:16 :-) 15:25:18 oerjan: swat variable for me 15:25:21 WE SPELLS OUR GRAMMARS PROPERLY HERE IN #ESOTERIC 15:25:34 oerjan: dad blamed is apparently a euphemism for god damned 15:25:40 aha 15:26:42 or, in Sgeoland, a euphemism for BANNED 15:26:50 erm elliott that statement is invalid because of the "this program is public domain" 15:26:55 variable: i recall a recent reddit post arguing that people correcting each other's grammar and spelling is the only thing keeping communities from descending into youtube comment quality 15:27:02 s/post/comment/ 15:27:13 variable: preeeecisely...except /arguably/ it is just stating informatively /what/ the GPL demands 15:27:19 either way, it's completely useless text :) 15:27:53 yep 15:27:56 hm or was it recent, it may have been just linked from a recent reddit comment 15:28:01 where did you find that? 15:28:28 variable: the program zzo linked yesterday 15:28:31 he is a fan of terrible licensing! 15:28:42 he can't seem to not invent his own ... like everything else ... 15:28:47 oerjan, why do I get the feeling that 50% of the comments were a flame about some perfectly normal variation? ie color v colour ? 15:28:56 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:29:05 variable: well that happens of course :D 15:29:21 i think a saw someone complaining about "whilst" yesterday 15:29:25 *i 15:29:26 variable: *colour vs. colour 15:29:30 you illiterate American bastard! 15:30:06 variable: however on reddit that just means we're in for the _next_ commenter giving us a lesson 15:30:34 xD 15:30:38 elliott, did I mention that UK shows are so much better than the Americanized versions (Hustle v Leverage)? 15:31:15 #esoteric is of course _almost_ indistinguishable from parts of reddit 15:31:19 variable: you are granted temporary lenience. 15:31:23 oerjan: er are you sure about that :D 15:31:50 elliott: hey i corrected it to "parts of" before pressing enter! 15:32:15 oerjan: I'd like to see a subreddit as flamewarry as here... or as interesting... or as off-topic 15:33:17 r/politics for the first perhaps? 15:33:35 oerjan: ok but with #esoteric the important thing is that it's intelligent people arguing like morons 15:33:45 U WRONG! 15:33:46 /r/politics is just morons arguing like morons 15:35:43 ais523: hi 15:35:44 also things go off-topic all the time in the comments 15:36:15 oerjan: well sure, but I just don't really see this place as being similar to reddit 15:36:32 oerjan: proggit circa early 2007, perhaps 15:36:53 and people keep complaining about r/science not having real science although i saw a post indicating they were intending to moderate more restrictively 15:36:55 19:13:44 Please tell me whether or not this is good enough: http://sprunge.us/NXPL 15:36:55 19:14:41 hmm, you seem to have pasted a tex document and not a runnable or compileable program 15:37:01 olsner: ENHAAAAAANCED CWEEEEEEEEEEB 15:37:21 *start moderating 15:37:40 It gives you PROGRAMMING POWERS 15:37:50 You can write a BOOK and it's a PROGRAM but a BOOK and a program yet a BOOK! 15:37:58 IT RENDERS LINE NUMBERS TO .DVI 15:38:54 21:34:26 elliott did stuff with Factor 15:38:54 21:34:27 huh 15:38:54 Yes, I had a half-broken commit made to the repository that got fixed by Slava and made "0 /" give a less horrific exception. 15:39:05 21:50:33 no 15:39:05 21:50:39 he hasn't actually done anything about them 15:39:05 21:50:50 just yelled at us about how dumb we are for not having done it for him 15:39:13 ^cat coppro: factually incorrect 15:39:13 coppro: factually incorrect 15:39:32 I wonder if I accidentally killed coppro's dog or something 15:39:54 elliott: thinking about it, it's possible that i just tune out the parts i like the least from both places, making them converge :) 15:40:07 oerjan: FUCK YOU ASSHOLE 15:40:08 oerjan: hi 15:40:27 wat 15:42:37 elliott: what 15:42:38 elliott: it takes a few more lines than that to make me _start_ tuning out, naturally :D 15:42:49 Vorpal: pumpkin enclosed with leaves, how odd 15:42:52 oerjan: FUCK YOU ASSHOLE 15:42:52 oerjan: FUCK YOU ASSHOLE 15:42:53 oerjan: FUCK YOU ASSHOLE 15:42:53 oerjan: FUCK YOU ASSHOLE 15:42:53 oerjan: FUCK YOU ASSHOLE 15:42:53 oerjan: FUCK YOU ASSHOLE 15:42:54 oerjan: hi 15:43:05 yeah yeah whatever 15:43:14 Vorpal: ok this whole tree seems to exist solely to conceal pumpkins 15:43:23 elliott, do ypu dislike Ioke? I assume if you do, it's for the same "It has no rules" reason for hating Io 15:43:51 It's probably better than Io but I don't see any reason to give it any attention. 15:44:05 It is, IIRC, JVM-hosted, which is a strong negative. 15:44:18 * oerjan paging shutup in 1, 2... 15:46:16 oerjan: Waaay too lazy to add anything to it since it doesn't seem to have done anything. 15:46:38 it's still broken? 15:47:09 oh not done anything to Sgeo you mean 15:47:26 well you do not seriously _expect_ people to respond constructively to harassment, do you? 15:47:46 _even_ if you're right about the fundamental issue 15:49:23 triggering people's basic defense instincts is not a way to make them behave rationally. 15:50:49 not that i imagine Sgeo caring that much about shutup anyhow 15:51:53 * oerjan always feels hypocritical when talking about how people should behave :( 15:58:32 oerjan: well i _have_ tried talking him out of it, and yelling at him directly 15:58:40 and i can hardly program a bot to talk rationally, so instead it yells 15:58:52 patches welcome :P 15:59:59 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:00:47 fizzie: I think you might want to remove the "simple little" part from the mcmap README's first line. 16:00:54 It's quite a hefty program now. :p 16:00:56 XD 16:01:28 simple little behemoth 16:01:53 fizzie, does mcmap have a built-in colour for TNT? 16:02:04 Phantom_Hoover: I haven't done a thing. 16:02:17 fizzie: Heh, I'm going to tweak the dependency-generating rule with that option that ignores non-existent headers, assuming they're generated; currently it won't generate dependencies if protocol-data.h doesn't exist. 16:02:51 elliott, you expect me to take your word on that? 16:02:59 Draaaaaaaaama. 16:03:13 How do you know I didn't push a SECRET UPDATE to decolour TNT!!?!??@49837869rumkf 16:05:26 Phantom_Hoover: Srsly, all I did last night was walk around. 16:05:32 I am currently lost somewhere far away from the Cube. 16:07:36 -!- Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:08:20 elliott: http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/scigen/ 16:08:30 Now what are the coords of spawn again... 16:08:44 fizzie: Also outdated: "If you leave it out, the window will be resizable, but resize events are not handled, so something bad will probably happen. (Fixing this is on the hypothetical TODO list.)" 16:08:53 fizzie: I pushed that build system fix, btw. 16:09:12 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 16:10:41 [15:40] ais523: hi <-- hi 16:11:02 ais523: what are good times to bug you about scapegoat relative to your sleep schedule? :-P 16:11:29 elliott: oh, the issue for me now is that I'm looking at #esoteric when people speak there 16:11:32 but not really taking in any of the words 16:11:44 ais523: minecraft, eh :P 16:11:49 could be 16:12:06 ais523: surely the tab colour for minecraft is different if you've been pinged? 16:12:09 that's xchat default, at least 16:12:20 oh, it is 16:12:47 but as I said, I just noticed I'd been pinged, looked at the channel, then went back to looking at something else 16:12:50 and again, didn't actually read it 16:12:55 I think my brain is IRCing on autopilot 16:13:43 ais523: check the link i pasted 16:13:47 ais523: IF I PING YOU LIKE THIS WOULD IT HELP 16:14:32 ais523: BEEP BEEP WAKE UP BEEEEEEEP 16:15:23 ais523: BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP 16:15:30 elliott: I only noticed the third one 16:15:38 ais523: ok, i'll use that in future 16:15:47 and probably only because I was looking at the channel at the time 16:16:11 ais523: this is why most people have system-wide indicators if they've been pinged :P 16:16:12 e.g. sound 16:16:17 elliott: I /do/ 16:16:23 ais523: you're...deaf? 16:16:38 or just _really_ good at ignoring things? 16:16:48 no, I just don't react to the fact I was pinged for whatever reason 16:16:53 heh 16:16:54 also, #esoteric was set not to trigger them 16:16:57 which probably has something to do with it 16:17:02 must have been a mouse-typo weeks ago 16:17:12 that might be something worth fixing :p 16:17:30 as in, I looked in the client's config, and there was a specific config entry meaning "#esoteric should not ping me no matter what's said there" 16:17:31 fixed now 16:17:37 ais523: I don't know if you heard the last time I said, but my scapegoat implementation can now order and apply changesets 16:17:43 yay 16:17:50 ais523: which I think means it does automatic merging 16:18:04 what happens on a changeset that contains a conflict? 16:18:05 because the changeset {A, B}, when applied, will produce an automatic merge of A and B if one is possible, right? 16:18:08 ais523: it returns Nothing :-) 16:18:12 that's my only failure mechanism right now 16:18:18 heh 16:18:22 i'm trying to get it as platonically elegant as possible before ruining it 16:18:28 and you can upgrade it to a better monad later 16:18:42 e.g. Either, for the purpose of returning more details about the problem 16:18:47 ais523: doubt it needs to be a monad; just (Either ApplyError [Line]) 16:18:51 hmm, is (Either a) a monad? 16:18:55 yep 16:18:55 I think it only is under certain conditions 16:19:10 it's just Maybe + error message 16:19:29 as long as you use Right as the actual value, and Left as the error condition; its >>= is defined with that assumption 16:19:33 right 16:20:07 ais523: anyway, what do you think I should implement next? I was thinking changes-on-sets (i.e. directories), but I'm not sure 16:20:28 hmm, it might be better to ask me when I'm capable of concious thought 16:20:32 which it seems I'm not at the moment 16:20:34 (and my attempts to refit the code to allow genericisation have resulted in ugliness 16:20:46 ais523: heh, try and remember to ping me when you are then :P 16:21:56 anyway, my sleep schedule is mostly OK except I was awake all night Saturday -> Sunday, due to looking after a relative 16:22:06 and this is the first week of term 16:23:49 and I have a report deadline 16:24:55 ais523: just one question if you feel conscious enough to answer it: do you think it's possible to derive the file changes with an F([String]) and the directory changes with F(Set DirEntry) for the same F? 16:25:06 i.e. are they direct analogues of each other that can be auto-generated? 16:25:26 -!- Vorpal_ has joined. 16:25:34 aha, probably not, because the way you specify context is different 16:25:36 Vorpal_: what coords are spawn, do you know? 16:25:39 ais523: define context? 16:25:42 ais523: ah 16:25:46 ais523: because with a list, you go between two elements 16:25:49 -!- Vorpal has quit (Disconnected by services). 16:25:50 ais523: with a set, you specify the whole set 16:25:51 yep 16:25:51 to insert to 16:25:55 -!- Vorpal_ has changed nick to Vorpal. 16:26:04 and that's a big enough difference to confuse type systems 16:26:05 [17:29:57] Vorpal_: what coords are spawn, do you know? <-- no idea 16:26:14 elliott, some smallish positive number? 16:26:18 for x and z 16:26:19 Vorpal: well i know that :) 16:26:24 wait, is this channel still talking about minecraft? 16:26:25 ais523: even then, I've been trying to make a "Change" typeclass so that I can define operations generic to change type ... but this might be fruitless 16:26:47 ais523: at the same time, I think I still want _some_ sort of genericity, because e.g. both types of change have the same metadata 16:26:49 that is: 16:26:51 author, date, etc. 16:26:51 indeed 16:26:57 so i'm a bit confused :) 16:27:01 it's just getting levels of abstraction right 16:27:11 and that's coming up in my research atm and confusing me 16:27:16 ais523: I think I'll make a distinction between "changes" and "patches" 16:27:19 also my computer crashed. Something with USB is shoddy and can cause a reset. 16:27:25 ais523: change = basic operation; patch = change + metadata 16:27:29 ais523: changes reference patches 16:27:33 hmm, OK 16:27:40 i.e., a change might be "insert 'foo' between patch1 and patch2", and a patch using it might be: 16:27:42 I'm not sure how useful the naming is there, but I doubt any other naming would do better 16:27:43 author: elliott 16:27:46 date: [now] 16:27:50 insert 'foo' between patch1 and patch2 16:27:53 and the concepts are certainly useful 16:27:58 ais523: well, a patch is the kind of thing you'd show to another person, a change isn't 16:28:34 OK, here's a concept English doesn't have a word for, and comes up a lot in programming: imagine something like a computer game (Minecraft perhaps?) where you want to generate some in-game concept (perhaps monsters) 16:28:53 ais523: now we're on-topic! ...wait... 16:28:58 ais523, err? 16:29:03 there are two ways you can define "monster": an individual monster in a location on the map, or the concept of that monster that it's generated from 16:29:16 heh 16:29:31 ais523: I'd call the former a monster and the latter a monster-class 16:29:33 or monster-type 16:29:35 the question is, how do you name the second type of monster, to show it's distinct from the first? 16:29:38 but those don't make sense to refer to Changes as 16:29:46 ais523, you mean like the idea of an monster (as in Platon (sp in English?)) 16:29:48 oh, that wasn't a scapegoat reference at all 16:29:48 i assume that's what you're trying to say 16:29:50 ah 16:29:58 Vorpal: what 16:30:00 Vorpal: yes, I've seen "platonic" used to describe the concept before 16:30:06 well sort of... 16:30:09 it's just a template vs. instance 16:30:09 but it doesn't seem to fit exactly 16:30:13 ais523: use OOP TERMINOLOGY!!192871349 16:30:14 ais523, the second could perhaps be an instance of a monster 16:30:17 well, in fact, this is almost directly OOP 16:30:19 class vs. instance 16:30:21 elliott: except you need multiple inheritance 16:30:22 Vorpal: er no 16:30:26 the second is the class 16:30:27 definitely 16:30:36 elliott, err, which one do you mean is the second 16:30:39 and which is the first 16:30:47 the one that came second in his message, perhaps? 16:30:50 just thinking out loud here 16:30:54 there are two ways you can define "monster": an individual monster in a location on the map, or the concept of that monster that it's generated from 16:30:56 oh wait yeah I mixed up order 16:30:59 I thought it was the other way around 16:31:00 * elliott clap 16:31:06 -!- asiekierka has joined. 16:31:07 ais523, how do you need MI? 16:31:10 hello! 16:31:14 this is what boredom does to people 16:31:26 http://pastebin.com/712w0gTm 16:31:38 Vorpal: because sensibly, an individual monster needs to inherit from a monster class (if you're doing OO), and that's the way round nearly all games do it 16:31:54 elliott's claiming it should also inherit from the monster template, which is entirely sensible except it requires MI 16:31:57 I think it only is under certain conditions <-- the Left type needs an Error instance, is all 16:32:04 ais523: erm 16:32:05 ais523: not really 16:32:12 ais523: class Grue < Monster := ... 16:32:15 ais523: myGrue := new Grue 16:32:20 http://pastebin.com/xyGf2UVF <- added some more info 16:32:21 oerjan: right 16:32:29 ais523, yep. So the monster classes inherits from some base class. And then you have instances of each monster. This is one of the few situations where OOP terminology actually seems pretty sensible 16:32:30 elliott: but Monster shouldn't contain things like X and Y coordinates 16:32:35 and nor should Grue 16:32:36 asiekierka: is this on Windows? 16:32:38 but myGrue should 16:32:40 and they are quite rare 16:32:43 elliott: Linux 16:32:45 Ubuntu 10.10 16:32:48 ais523: hmm, yes they should 16:32:51 2.8GHz Intel Core 2 Qud 16:32:52 ais523: Monster should inherit from GridEntity 16:32:52 Quad* 16:33:00 asiekierka: needs moar llvm 16:33:03 erm 16:33:03 clang 16:33:07 asiekierka: also pcc 16:33:12 also non-glibc libc 16:33:12 s 16:33:17 adding clang 16:33:21 elliott: ah, I see, that makes complete sense if you have a fixed set of monsters 16:33:30 ais523: *monster types? 16:33:34 err, yes 16:33:43 most games are written in such a way that monster types could be added at runtime 16:33:49 which is weird, as none of them actually do do that 16:33:59 elliott: but Monster shouldn't contain things like X and Y coordinates <-- so you could have another base class that includes other things which has a position in the game world, "entity" seems like the best name? Though this is getting very far into OOP now... 16:34:05 ais523: how does that clash with my way of doing it? 16:34:08 bench.c:67:1: error: 'main' must return 'int' 16:34:12 Vorpal: welcome to me, five lines ago 16:34:13 fixing 16:34:20 (yes, that's clang) 16:34:34 elliott: it requires generation of classes at runtime 16:34:37 elliott, well you split your statements over more lines. Of course you get more said (though less per line) 16:34:54 ais523: So? :) 16:34:59 elliott - looks like we have a current winner 16:35:00 asiekierka: gcc's error is actually similarly useful in this case 16:35:04 which is surprising 16:35:08 ais523: gcc gave nothing! 16:35:10 asiekierka: you're testing this while you're running an irc client? 16:35:15 asiekierka: -Wall fail 16:35:21 elliott: that and Firefox 16:35:24 elliott: I think that one's actually under -pedantic 16:35:28 asiekierka: hahahaha 16:35:44 asiekierka: benchmarks while running Firefox 16:35:45 hilarious 16:35:56 ais523, if you want to make monsters at runtime you presumably also need to add some sort of game logic to them at runtime. Some sort of AI. Which means you need to add code at runtime anyway. 16:36:04 either by scripting language 16:36:10 or by loading native code, or something else 16:36:17 elliott: it's not that ridiculous, you can use the POSIX timer that counts only time spent by the process in question 16:36:26 and ignores other processes on the same processor 16:36:29 (where "native" could be byte code if you do it in java or whatever) 16:36:36 ais523: that's not a very good measurement 16:36:45 ais523: since it'll probably be quite a bit less than a machine just running the benchmark 16:36:47 and counting real time 16:36:56 http://pastebin.com/FHwQ12XD 16:36:57 ais523, how would you count waiting for IO and no other runnable task? 16:36:58 well, i guess it depends on how it treats kernel time, but still 16:37:03 elliott it's not a speed benchmark 16:37:04 elliott: seems I was wrong, it's under both -Wall /and/ -pedantic 16:37:06 it's a comparison between compilers 16:37:07 ais523, to that process or to nowhere? 16:37:16 IO waits go to nowhere on that timer 16:37:16 asiekierka: doesn't matter, your results are biased 16:37:27 due to Firefox using different resources at different times, most likely 16:37:48 elliott: well, which timer you use depends on what you're trying to measure 16:37:58 ais523, then how do you deal with virtualisation. You can't tell really where time went if you are virtualised. 16:38:08 I/O time is very relevant for benchmarking some programs, and not for others 16:38:15 elliott: did not make a real difference 16:38:23 asiekierka: you can't know that... 16:38:31 i turned off everything 16:38:37 Vorpal: indeed 16:38:40 asiekierka: including X11? 16:38:40 but the console (used to run benchmarks), IRC client and 1 tab in Firefox 16:38:46 "everything" 16:38:54 we have different definitions of everything 16:38:55 i need the irc client and firefox to update 16:38:57 yours doesn't include X11, apparently 16:39:08 there's a whole bunch of system services too 16:39:28 whatever 16:39:35 I suppose you could use emulation, rather than virtualisation, for consistent benchmarks 16:39:44 ais523: i will zip up the compiled binaries 16:39:46 and the source code 16:39:52 asiekierka: how would that help you benchmark them? 16:39:55 and put it up so you can test it 16:40:00 well, I wouldn't want to 16:40:01 anyway 16:40:05 where can i find pcc, elliott? 16:40:08 it's not me who wants the benchmark results 16:40:09 ais523: neither would I :P 16:40:21 http://pcc.ludd.ltu.se/ 16:40:22 if you want benchmarks just to compare two situations (different softwares, before/after change) or such just turn off most CPU intensive stuff then set cpu frequency governor to performance. Then time the thing a number of times and take the average. 16:40:24 you need the CVS versoin 16:40:25 *version 16:40:26 most of the time that works well 16:40:27 and also pcc-libs 16:40:41 elliott: I would say "ugh CVS", except that I'm using RCS for a serious project 16:40:43 admittedly by mistake 16:40:44 Vorpal: timing a number of times is done by Linpack 16:40:51 asiekierka, the other bits? 16:40:52 ais523: well, they're BSD guys, they're luddites :) 16:41:14 and it's not too awful, except for having to check out immediately after checking in when I'm the only person working on the file 16:41:22 Vorpal - i do not know where to find the cpu governor and i tured off the cpu intensive stuff already, except what i need 16:41:25 the CPU frequency really matters. ondemand is bad for quick benchmarks. Or anything where CPU load isn't high for a long time 16:41:35 really it seriously messes up timing 16:41:45 a locking VCS isn't really an issue at all when only one person is working on the file anyway 16:41:59 ais523: see if you used SCAPEGOAT ... wait, i can't use that on you 16:42:12 asiekierka, cpufreq-set -g performance -c 0, repeat with -c 1 and so on for each core in your CPU 16:42:16 needs sudo 16:42:24 (or su or whatever) 16:42:43 http://reckzb.imgur.com/new_haven_museum#q7EwQ 16:42:46 to restore just do cpufreq-set -g ondemand -c whatever for each core 16:42:51 Beats Deewiant's, I'm afraid. 16:42:55 * Loading cpufreq kernel modules... [fail] 16:43:00 i am sudo'd 16:43:01 or su'd 16:43:09 admittedly by mistake <-- uh how did that happen? 16:43:13 "sudo'd or su'd" -- ah, to be incompetent. 16:43:18 Vorpal: I was using LyX 16:43:22 Phantom_Hoover: Man, that Painterly pack is weird. 16:43:26 i am root 16:43:27 Vorpal: he accidentally typed "rcs" 16:43:28 tat's better 16:43:30 and it all went downhill from there 16:43:32 elliott, the windows are different. 16:43:33 and it has version control integration, but doesn't state the VCS when setting it up 16:43:33 asiekierka: root is better than sudo? 16:43:34 LOL. 16:43:40 maybe 16:43:42 turns out, the only VCS it actually integrates with is RCS 16:43:47 ais523, heh. I just ignore it's built in vcs support. But doesn't it do svn nowdays too? 16:43:55 perhaps as a plugin 16:43:55 rcs is preferable to svn 16:43:57 :P 16:44:01 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:44:03 ais523, I think in the very last version or such 16:44:05 but SVN is much worse than RCS for a single-developer project 16:44:08 svn is like cvs, except without historical justification 16:44:12 and also, very slow 16:44:15 or was it git? well some non-rcs anyway 16:44:15 elliott, FWIW, that museum must have been done with a map editor. 16:44:21 Phantom_Hoover: Why? Bedrock? 16:44:25 my main annoyance with svn is the lack of local history 16:44:37 although I've been using git-svn nowadays 16:44:46 for use with other people's svn repos 16:44:50 ais523: SCAPEGOAAAAT 16:44:53 (or, in the case of UnNetHack, tailor) 16:44:55 elliott, no, but it has lapis, redstone and coal ore in the one room. 16:45:00 Phantom_Hoover: Ah. 16:45:04 None of which can be placed. 16:45:04 elliott: hmm, we must add scapegoat support to tailor when we're done 16:45:13 And there's a *lot* of blue wool there. 16:45:14 -!- asiekierka has joined. 16:45:16 ais523: agreed, but IIRC Tailor's architecture is a bit bad? I forget 16:45:18 back 16:45:24 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:45:28 ais523: I'm planning to write darcs2sg as soon as sg "works" so it can be tested 16:45:30 anyway... /usr/include//stdio.h:34: error: cannot find 'stddef.h' 16:45:31 on real repos 16:45:32 elliott: it's probably awful, although I've never looked at the source it has a tendency to fail randomly 16:45:36 that's what pcc gives 16:45:41 with pcc-current.tgz 16:45:41 or, not randomly, deterministically 16:45:51 but without it being obvious what the relevant factors are 16:45:53 asiekierka: you didn't install pcc-libs. 16:46:00 asiekierka: also, use cvs, not the .tgzs. 16:46:03 pcc-libs is only available via cvs too. 16:46:10 ais523: sg basically needs to-sg-repo support anyway, for converting old repositories 16:46:12 although VCS type seems to be one of them, and directory structure is possibly another 16:46:16 elliott: indeed 16:46:18 ais523: so darcs can be done quite easily 16:46:27 from-sg would take actual work, but who would want to do that? :) 16:46:32 bbl 16:46:53 elliott: it wouldn't be too hard 16:47:12 you'd just need to figure out what to define as a merge from the point of view of the other VCS 16:47:39 you could either do it completely linear or maximally branching; the second would probably be a more accurate view of things, the first would correspond to a rebase and rebases are evil 16:48:14 3 16:48:32 (sorry, I typoed 3 in my terminal, realised that was an inappropriate place to typo it, so I moved the typo to #esoteric to get rid of ti) 16:48:34 *it 16:48:36 pcc-libs is on the FTP too, but i'll try cvs 16:48:59 the problem is 16:49:01 how to remove pcc 16:49:14 asiekierka: you make installed it? 16:49:16 looooooooool 16:49:24 stop loling 16:49:27 asiekierka: into /usr? 16:49:27 did it at least install in /usr/local? 16:49:27 i know you hate me 16:49:30 just stop loling 16:49:39 no, i don't hate you, it's just i laugh at stupid decisions 16:49:39 ais523: yes 16:49:51 elliott: i only installed linux last week, keep it a little bit easier 16:49:54 asiekierka: it's not too hard to uninstall, then; you just need to rm -r all the directory trees it created 16:50:04 which is easier if you know where they actually are 16:50:05 Or just rm -rf /usr/local if you haven't installed anything there before. 16:50:13 elliott: > llvm 16:50:21 also parts of gcc 16:50:23 asiekierka: good luck... 16:50:29 look to see if there's a make uninstall in the makefile 16:50:31 there is sometimes 16:50:32 use --prefix=/opt/foo in future, or checkinstall 16:50:35 sometimes it even actually works 16:50:38 ais523: checked already 16:50:39 ais523: they're BSD guys. they're luddites 16:50:39 I doubt it :) 16:50:51 also 16:50:53 pcc wiped out manually 16:50:56 (C-INTERCAL's does, although it doesn't uninstall previous versions) 16:50:56 now to get the cvs versions 16:52:00 ais523: you /must/ switch C-INTERCAL to scapegoat as soon as it's stable enough, I want to see esr's reaction 16:52:11 Why? 16:52:28 because everything esr has said so far re: C-INTERCAL has been amusing 16:53:14 /usr/local install isn't ridiculously bad; it's comparable to the situation on Windows 16:53:25 ais523: windows programs all have uninstallers 16:53:31 elliott: yes, but they generally don't work 16:53:37 ais523: they work better than nothing :) 16:54:48 the situation with Norton is ridiculous; it comes with an uninstaller that doesn't work, but you can download an uninstaller that does from the company website 16:55:04 anyway, "isn't ridiculously bad; comparable to Windows" is a strange thing to say 16:55:17 elliott: you've used Windows, you know it isn't completely awful 16:55:26 atm I consider it usable but suboptimal and a pain to develop for 16:55:30 ais523: well, no, but its /architecture/ is terrible 16:55:39 terrible and improving 16:55:43 ais523: not internally 16:55:50 The Old New Thing can convince anyone of that 16:55:56 I don't read it much 16:56:01 I probably should, it's a good blog 16:56:12 3 16:56:12 (sorry, I typoed 3 in my terminal, realised that was an inappropriate place to typo it, so I moved the typo to #esoteric to get rid of ti) 16:56:12 *it 16:56:21 :D 16:56:25 ais523, you are joking right? It isn't some sort of OCD? 16:56:32 *of awesome? 16:56:35 ais523: here's something you won't believe 16:56:36 (you never know with people of this channel) 16:56:46 Vorpal: I am aware you can get rid of typos more easily than that 16:56:46 ais523: as far as I can tell, Raymond Chen wrote Linux 2.0's configuration interface bash script 16:56:58 ais523: Raymond Chen, of Old New Thing. *While working at Microsoft.* 16:57:07 I was just in a mood to give this one a home 16:57:08 ais523, well yes. But would you use the other way? 16:57:13 ah 16:57:15 ais523: it was credited to a Raymond Chen, it had an @microsoft.com email, and IIRC googling the email vaguely pointed me in his direction. 16:57:32 that's not completely implausible 16:57:32 ais523: It was a *bash shell script*. Used for configuring Linux 2.0. 16:57:39 Not completely, but awesome! 16:57:51 ais523: (it's a horrific script -- it reads answers from /dev/tty, so you can't pipe less in) 16:57:54 elliott 16:57:55 *pipe yes in 16:57:58 I have no idea why 16:58:03 where can i find the way to download pcc-libs via cvs 16:58:16 http://pcc.ludd.ltu.se/downloads/ 16:58:18 check out the pcc-libs module 16:58:24 via cvs 16:58:28 elliott: hey, C-INTERCAL reads from /dev/tty 16:58:28 same pserver as listed there 16:58:33 ais523: why? 16:58:33 or used to, at least 16:58:44 because the code logic completely lost track of stdin after a while 16:58:51 and I got lost trying to figure out where it had got to 16:58:56 possibly still does 16:58:56 haha 16:59:05 just for the debugger, which makes sense reading from the tty anyway 16:59:16 elliott, for unknown reason it reassigned stdout and stdin a lot iirc 16:59:39 ais523, but what if you want to use the debugger from inside an editor. Like gdb-mode for emacs or similar? 16:59:56 Vorpal: M-x term 17:00:04 although that's far from optimal 17:00:08 indeed 17:00:16 also, doesn't Emacs simulate /dev/tty anyway in shell-mode? 17:00:17 elliott: /usr/include//signal.h:349: error: cannot find 'stddef.h' 17:00:19 the funny thing is 17:00:22 there is no stddef.h in there 17:00:24 you can just use a pty 17:00:28 ais523, perhaps. I haven't checked how gdb mode work or such 17:00:32 asiekierka: did you make install pcc-libs? 17:00:35 sorry, I'm vaguely annoyed at the moment because the burglar alarm's gone off again 17:00:46 elliott: that happens while compiling pcc-libs 17:00:50 ais523, at university? 17:00:52 ais523: comint doesn't simulate /dev/tty, i don't _think_ 17:00:52 it uses pcc to compile them 17:00:54 Vorpal: yes 17:00:57 asiekierka: it shouldn't 17:00:57 ah 17:00:59 asiekierka: it's meant to use gcc 17:01:02 you set CC=pcc or something 17:01:11 asiekierka: failing that, "make clean; CC=gcc ./configure" 17:01:27 elliott, wait, can't it self-host? 17:01:31 elliott - still uses pcc 17:01:37 Vorpal: Not when you don't have a working compiler yet :-P 17:01:42 pcc-libs is the other half to pcc on Linux. 17:01:45 elliott, fair enough 17:01:58 asiekierka: you should have compiled pcc second, I don't know what to do; it should work with CC=gcc 17:02:02 if it doesn't you did something really weird 17:02:07 elliott: it does not have a check for CC anywhere 17:02:07 elliott, though iirc gcc insists on self-hosting itself when compiling with any other compilser 17:02:09 compiler* 17:02:11 asiekierka: what? 17:02:17 ./configure listens to CC. 17:02:20 *$CC 17:02:22 i tried searching the entire ./configure to CC 17:02:24 for CC 17:02:38 /sigh 17:02:43 is that autoconf configure? 17:02:46 yes. 17:02:47 got it 17:02:50 well then wtf 17:02:52 so it probably does some random shit. 17:02:55 rather than say CC directly. 17:03:00 Vorpal: it does that for two reasons: half of it's written in gcc extensions, and as a check (it compares gcc compiled with gcc compiled with gcc to gcc compiled with gcc compiled with $OTHER_COMPILER to verify they're identical) 17:03:22 ais523: that's far too many recursions 17:03:24 yeah 17:03:24 autoconf respects CC 17:03:25 elliott: fixed it 17:03:32 elliott: any fewer and you wouldn't expect the binaries to match 17:03:32 removed /usr/local/bin/pcc (will reinstall it) 17:03:42 it does check for pcc hardcoded, if it doesnt find it only then it uses gcc 17:03:43 ais523: gcc compiled with gcc compiled with X = gcc compiled with gcc compiled with gcc compiled with X 17:03:58 ais523: that's two less recursions than yours 17:04:13 now it works 17:04:15 and that only requires three compilations 17:04:26 ais523, but what about stuff like debug info. Wouldn't you expect them to differ (different paths in the debug info)? 17:04:26 ais523: and since gcc only goes up to stage3, I *doubt* it does what you said 17:04:43 runs at roughly the same speed as GCC 17:04:52 elliott: no, that's what I said 17:04:54 actually a bit slower 17:04:54 just the other way round 17:04:58 elliott, actually he got the count right 17:05:01 i'll try to recompile pcc-libs with pcc now 17:05:06 ais523: oh, you used "with" to separate them both 17:05:20 elliott, no he used "to" 17:05:20 ais523: thus making your sentence completely unparsable 17:05:29 i'm not looking at that sentence again, it hurts me 17:05:46 nope, no difference 17:06:01 well with PCC-compiled libs it is faster 17:06:13 still slower than GCC, though 17:06:19 asiekierka: now do them all again with uClibc/dietlibc (compilers bootstrapped with same) 17:06:20 have fun 17:06:30 yay 17:06:43 elliott, well here I added markup, look if you want, if not then don't: "it compares (gcc [3] compiled with gcc [2] compiled with gcc [1]) to (gcc [2] compiled with gcc [1] compiled with $OTHER_COMPILER) to verify they're identical" 17:06:44 you need to patch both dietlibc and pcc to get them working together, but i can't give you them, they're on the other box. 17:06:51 Vorpal: right. 17:07:01 elliott, the number are the stage numbers 17:07:04 ais523: it's a lot easier if you have a C interpreter 17:07:04 numbers* 17:07:15 elliott, does any exist? 17:07:17 ais523: gcc compiled with gcc_interpreted = gcc compiled with gcc compiled with gcc_interpreted 17:07:20 Vorpal: *do, and I thnk so 17:07:22 *think 17:07:27 Cint or whatever 17:07:27 heh nice 17:07:28 and Ch 17:07:34 Ch supports the 1999 ISO C Standard (C99) and C++ classes. It is superset of C with C++ classes. C99 major features such as complex numbers, variable length arrays (VLAs), IEEE-754 floating-point arithmetic and generic mathematical functions are supported. Wide characters in Addendum 1 for C90 is also supported. 17:07:36 on the other hand 17:07:40 PCC wins in size 17:07:56 elliott: that's not really much easier, you just replaced "compiled with" with "interpreted with", then "interpreted with" with an underscore 17:08:00 asiekierka: pcc/dietlibc can produce statically-linked executables of 4K in size 17:08:02 elliott, complex numbers. heh nice 17:08:14 elliott, that is one of the features I would expect to be unsupported 17:08:15 asiekierka: (statically linking with glibc = 100K+ usually) 17:08:22 Vorpal: not that hard to do, surely 17:08:40 ais523: shush :) 17:08:45 hmm, pcc supports all of C89 and some of C99? 17:08:46 ais523: it's certainly faster to do, probably 17:08:47 elliott, yeah but if you look at C99 compilers it is one of the last features to get done it seems. 17:08:50 http://pastebin.com/b4P3QzZM 17:08:50 since gcc takes so long to compile 17:09:02 current rank 17:09:04 elliott, (based on clang and gcc development history) 17:09:18 elliott, possibly because few people use it? 17:09:25 probably 17:10:02 http://pastebin.com/fJ2CVjjj <- added one more important info 17:10:27 most effort put into biased benchmarks evar 17:10:40 since gcc takes so long to compile <-- wouldn't it take ages to interpret as well? 17:10:54 Vorpal: well you'd only hit the codepaths that are actually used to compile gcc. 17:10:56 so probably not. 17:10:58 elliott: bash adds a bit of overhead 17:10:59 ok it'd be very slow still :) 17:11:00 should i disable it too 17:11:08 no it doesn't 17:11:10 elliott, well a coverage analysis might be interesting here. 17:11:13 also the kernel adds some 17:11:14 bash will just be sleeping while it runs 17:11:17 i should do it without a kernel 17:11:20 false comparison 17:11:22 but, I'm not going to try that on gcc bootstrap 17:12:11 http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/f3llk/dear_mojang_different_colored_wood_and_stairs/c1d2hz4?context=2 I approve 17:12:14 (sorry ais523) 17:12:32 here's another question 17:12:41 how to switch ubuntu to use dietlibc and not glibc 17:12:51 I'm not sure if it's designed for that sort of customization 17:13:04 the purpose of Ubuntu isn't really extreme tinkering 17:13:20 (does even gentoo let you do that switch easily?) 17:13:23 hey even gentoo doesn't support that sort of stuff iirc 17:13:37 according to my biased benchmark, if you care about size you should use PCC (it has the performance of GCC but a far smaller size) 17:13:47 if you care about speed, use Clang (the files are not the biggest either) 17:14:02 asiekierka: what? 17:14:06 asiekierka: you just install dietlibc in another prefix. 17:14:10 and then compile with /opt/bin/diet gcc ... 17:14:20 asiekierka: what optimization options are you using? 17:14:20 also, pcc's performance is lower than gcc. 17:14:25 and clang's runtime performance is often slower than gcc 17:14:29 (but it is always faster at compiling) 17:14:32 ais523: none! 17:14:40 asiekierka, well duh. 17:14:40 i use -o bench-[whatever] -lm bench.c 17:14:48 i'll try to run it with -O3 then 17:14:49 i guess 17:14:50 asiekierka: oh, you're talking about compilation speed, not the speed of the resulting program? 17:14:55 ais523 no 17:14:58 talking about the speed of the app 17:15:01 i'll try -O3 now, i guess 17:15:03 also, -Os is often better for speed of the resulting program due to cache effects 17:15:11 i'll use -Os then 17:15:13 asiekierka, you need each -O then. -Os can be faster. And is certainly smaller 17:15:20 asiekierka, so do them all, well not -O1 I guess 17:15:27 but -Os, -O2, -O3 17:15:37 and equiv ones for other compilers 17:15:53 comparing unoptimized compiler output for speed is unlikely to be too helpful... 17:16:08 LOL, you used no optimisation options? 17:16:10 faaaail 17:16:18 asiekierka: for a benchmark like this you want -O2 17:16:21 elliott stop going all fail over me, that's really annoying 17:16:25 since it's performance-heavy 17:16:32 asiekierka: well, in my defence, you are failing. very hard. 17:16:34 why not -Os -O2 -O3 17:16:38 elliott i am 17:16:39 ... 17:16:41 but you should just tell me 17:16:46 i am 17:16:47 and not go LOL FAIL BWAHAHAHAHA WHAT A NOOB 17:16:48 faaaail 17:16:58 as that's how i see your actions every 30 seconds 17:17:22 Vorpal: do two torches right after each other mean "end of line" in your exploration-marking system? 17:17:27 I'm trying to get back to spawn from (100,100) 17:17:31 and I've been following your torches 17:17:37 TCC seems to have no optimization options 17:17:37 and there are two right after each other and then none that I can see 17:17:38 *facepalm* 17:17:45 asiekierka: it has -O IIRC 17:18:02 the filesize does not change at all 17:18:05 Vorpal: oh wait found the next one 17:18:07 elliott, no. It depends on context 17:18:12 elliott, is it underground? 17:18:12 asiekierka: i believe it is on by default. 17:18:15 Vorpal: no, overground 17:18:22 elliott, what, then I have no idea :P 17:18:26 elliott, probably marking something 17:18:27 Vorpal: ... 17:18:28 look around 17:18:35 Vorpal: there ain't shit there but more torches 17:18:41 elliott, maybe there is some cool scenery around? 17:18:43 it's vaguely pretty i guess 17:18:51 GCC: -Os -O2 -O3 gives a 4x improvment 17:18:57 elliott, which direction do you move 17:19:04 wut 17:19:09 asiekierka: THOSE OVERRIDE EACH OTHER 17:19:14 elliott, is this one of the east or west trails? 17:19:20 Vorpal: I don't know! 17:19:23 elliott tell that to Vorpal 17:19:26 Vorpal: I think I might be going the wrong way 17:19:29 asiekierka: it was a list. 17:19:31 but -Os, -O2, -O3 17:19:33 you fail at english. 17:19:34 asiekierka, the last one takes effect 17:19:35 did i mention fail? 17:19:36 fail fail fail 17:19:39 faaaaail fail fail 17:19:44 asiekierka, it was trying each one. Separately 17:19:45 I know a song that will annoy everyoneeeeeee 17:19:48 quite obvious 17:19:51 see the comma there? 17:19:51 it's called fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, YOU FAAAIL 17:19:53 now try to read 17:19:57 oh ok 17:19:58 `addquote GCC: -Os -O2 -O3 gives a 4x improvment 17:20:02 Vorpal: you need to place more torches, cheapskate 17:20:08 elliott, uh, *WHERE* 17:20:08 (ais523: talking about real life obviously) 17:20:10 Vorpal: here 17:20:16 i can't follow your trails :D 17:20:16 elliott, I can't get on atm 17:20:16 elliott: oh, I don't mind 17:20:19 I'm just surprised 17:20:25 elliott, I'm on EDGE 17:20:33 elliott, I will not minecraft on that 17:20:39 the connection is just too bad 17:20:42 Oklopol minecrafts on a 3g stick, i bet it's normally on edge 17:20:44 be hardcore! 17:20:45 s/ / / 17:20:52 ais523: it's... slightly addictive 17:20:55 now i did them separately 17:21:01 elliott, dude, normally you get 3G in scandinavia :P 17:21:08 Os gives 1400000 KFlops (compared to 400000 pre-optimization) 17:21:23 #esoteric-minecraft anyone? 17:21:23 elliott, anyway. tell me which direction compared to spawn 17:21:28 it's probably common enough talk to get its own channel 17:21:35 elliott, otherwise I suspect it is someone else who placed that 17:22:09 267) GCC: -Os -O2 -O3 gives a 4x improvment 17:22:31 Vorpal: I'll add him as an op. 17:22:38 elliott, and resign yourself? 17:22:53 Vorpal: Are you afraid I'll ban you and then you'll die or something? 17:23:16 Vorpal: There, given fizzie enough flags that he can remove my privileges if he wants, but I doubt he will. 17:23:21 elliott, no I'm not "afraid". I'm just suspecting you will abuse the op at some point 17:23:26 like whenever we two disagree 17:23:28 Vorpal: To do _what_? 17:23:41 If fizzie has ops he can trivially remove any ban I place. 17:24:01 elliott, kickban probably. One way to resolve this would be to make me op as well. I wouldn't abuse it (I'm not you) 17:24:20 tl;dr YOU'RE EVIL AND IMMATURE, SO OP ME NOW!!!!!!!!! 17:24:37 ok 17:24:37 elliott, no :P 17:24:55 elliott, but I do not trust you to be a balanced person. 17:24:55 i'm now re-benchmarking every compiler (except tcc which lacks optimization options) 17:25:00 for -Os, -O3 and -O2 separately 17:25:14 ais523, not every compiler has -Os, and clang has more than -O3 iirc 17:25:18 ais523, read the docs 17:25:20 for details 17:25:27 hey ais523, did you know that I'm unbalanced 17:25:34 Vorpal: why are you pinging me with that, I'm not surprised at all 17:25:39 elliott: in what sense? 17:25:41 ais523, err 17:25:44 ais523: I dunno, ask Vorpal 17:25:44 ais523, mistap 17:25:46 tab* 17:25:47 oh, in the winning an insult match sense 17:25:49 asiekierka, ^ 17:26:01 thanks 17:26:05 ais523, not really. I'm just describing him 17:26:09 the point is i won't do a separate benchmark for 1 compiler 17:26:32 i will later organize the average KFlops results into an array 17:26:35 elliott, and compare yourself to ais523. Who of you is least likely to shout? Or get visibly angry? 17:26:41 Vorpal: do you realise that for a very long time, the vast majority of immaturity in this channel has come from you saying stupid shit and then justifying it based on me being immature? 17:26:47 Vorpal: *Which of you 17:26:49 elliott: Oh? 17:26:52 I thought that it was me 17:26:53 elliott, I disagree. 17:26:55 ais523, ah indeed 17:27:09 selecting from a list is always which, regardless of what the list contents are 17:27:10 ais523: please tell vorpal to shut up, he doesn't listen to me... 17:27:20 http://pastebin.com/G6k41v7i 17:27:22 my current progress 17:27:29 ... 17:27:50 elliott, I listen to you when you say sensible things. 17:27:57 ais523: please tell elliott to try to be more balanced 17:27:59 elliott: Vorpal: this argument's unlikely to be productive in any case 17:28:05 ais523, indeed 17:28:09 Vorpal: so, question, "revoke your ops right now because you're an unbalanced individual" is sensible? 17:28:11 so there's not much point in continuing it 17:28:27 unless you just like arguments for the sake of arguing, I suppose 17:28:31 they can be fun to watch sometimes 17:29:33 ais523: I'm just trying to get the off-topic Minecraft stuff in another channel to free up #esoteric some more, and Vorpal is refusing to use it unless I revoke my op privileges, because I'm "unbalanced" and I will kickban him or something, despite the fact that fizzie is also an op. While undoubtedly he's going to come back with his own version of events in reply to you like it's some sort of challenge to get ais to take your side, I really just 17:29:33 want him to admit that he's a fuckface for saying that. 17:29:42 elliott, I think it is sensible to carefully suggest handing over that channel to fizzie. If that is what you meant. 17:30:22 Vorpal: do you not quite grasp how insulting what you said was? 17:30:31 or do you just not care? 17:30:50 elliott, perhaps we put different weights on the word "unbalanced"? 17:30:51 STOP. 17:31:05 elliott, I ask again to compare yourself to ais. 17:31:08 If you don't stop immediately i will quit this channel and stop giving elliott any reason to bother/troll/anger you 17:31:16 Should help 17:31:19 according to what he was saying 17:31:22 asiekierka: that's really just incentive for me to keep going, isn't it... 17:31:30 elliott, again: Compare yourself to ais523. Which of you is least likely to shout? Or get visibly angry? 17:31:31 I'm not trying to win anything, I just want an apology from Vorpal. 17:31:44 Vorpal: that I never get visibly angry is not really evidence of anything 17:31:46 at least, not on IRC 17:31:51 I do get angry from time ot time 17:31:57 *time to time 17:32:02 but mostly in RL 17:32:12 ais523, well, indeed, but the question is if you are in control of the anger or if you react like elliott. 17:32:14 sometimes I come on here, furious at events in RL, and state that I'm angry because people couldn't tell otherwise 17:32:27 (because when RL makes me angry, it isn't #esoteric's fault) 17:32:33 (well, probably) 17:32:38 ais523, even when you are angry, you do seem a rather calm. 17:32:43 that is my point 17:32:45 Vorpal: yes, I'm an unstable wreck of an individual who kickbans people based on random whims and then immediately deops everyone else so that nobody can undo my injustice, and I shouldn't be allowed in polite society. 17:32:48 same goes for fizzie 17:32:55 elliott - if you say you're so 17:32:56 you are 17:32:58 having just come above surface from a fucking year of people treating me like I'm insane: 17:33:00 Vorpal: FUCK YOU. 17:33:03 elliott, now that is a strawman. 17:33:04 Vorpal: looking calm and being calm are different things 17:33:08 You are on ignore, and are never coming off. 17:33:10 YAY 17:33:17 ELLIOTT TURNED ON MADNESS MODE 17:33:18 elliott, and I never said "wreck" 17:33:22 asiekierka: Also you. 17:33:25 YAY 17:33:27 Vorpal: that's unlikely to help... 17:33:33 ELLIOTT IS GOING MORE MADNESS MODE 17:33:34 I think you've been missing the point for the past 10 minutes 17:33:41 ais523, indeed. And I think this actually proved my point. 17:33:45 his reaction to this. 17:34:26 yes, annoyed at my suggestion: of course. But he overreacted wildly. 17:34:52 http://pastebin.com/aPTureza 17:34:55 i'm too tired to do any more 17:35:07 Vorpal - elliott behaves like me 3 years ago 17:35:09 read: when i was 10 or 11 17:35:14 remember me from back then? 17:35:16 i was an annoyance 17:35:57 asiekierka, well, to be honest, you still are annoying to some degree. Though quite a bit less than before. 17:36:05 Vorpal: yeah 17:36:09 see: 3 minutes ago 17:36:13 when i went "lol madness mode" 17:36:22 right 17:36:24 also my frequent pasting of things which are useless 17:36:30 like the benchmark status 17:37:10 ais523, and... not reading those comma :P 17:37:16 what else is there 17:37:26 yes, not reading fully before asking 17:37:29 also saying stupid things 17:37:39 (because of lack of knowledge mostly, but still) 17:37:51 did i miss anything? 17:40:06 well, that's all today iirc 17:40:14 yay 17:45:01 ineiros, you really need to do something about your connection 17:47:21 -!- impomatic has joined. 17:55:45 *chirp* *a* *dirp* 17:57:29 -!- oerjan has set topic: Elliott/Vorpal Fallout, Channel Dies | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | elliott denies claim of wheat-based parentage but denies banning accusers. More at 11.. 17:57:49 -!- oerjan has set topic: Elliott/Vorpal Fallout, Channel Dies | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | elliott denies claim of wheat-based parentage but also denies banning accusers. More at 11.. 17:57:49 -!- elliott has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 17:57:59 HEY 17:58:14 that makes me remember times 17:58:17 when i was editing the topic 17:58:18 SOMEONE IS _REALLY_ GRUMPY 17:58:21 and ehird kept changing it back 17:58:23 I am not grumpy? 17:58:40 ...why did you censor the topic then 17:59:12 Because it's only going to make things more off-topic and stupid? 17:59:19 -!- cheater- has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:59:21 anyone wants a free google adwords promotional coupon code 17:59:35 asiekierka: no thanks 18:00:07 SOMEONE IS _REALLY_ GRUMPY <-- that is an understatement :) 18:00:33 elliott: well you also removed the denial of your wheat-based parentage, so i'll assume that means you've finally admitted it 18:00:37 yes. 18:00:41 I am kin of Weetabix. 18:06:33 Wait, this is the year of Duke Nukem Forever's announced release. 18:06:49 So weird... 18:07:11 Phantom_Hoover, hah 18:07:30 Phantom_Hoover: yes, and last year we made first contact! oh wait... 18:08:29 well anyway it's better than back in '84 when we were under that oppressive dictatorship 18:08:43 oerjan, as in, "the people making it have stated in no uncertain terms that it is going to be released in the second quarter of the year" 18:09:36 the signs of the end times are here 18:11:58 Phantom_Hoover: and Perl 6 is basically complete too, it's usable right now 18:12:24 ais523: and duke nukem forever is written in it! 18:12:32 And it runs on HURD! 18:12:38 oh right, Hurd 18:12:39 ais523: that's why it's taken so long to release, they had to wait for the language to exist first 18:12:44 I knew I was missing one, just couldn't remember what it was 18:13:11 It's all formally verified with Epigram 2! 18:14:21 what would formally verifying a computer game even mean? 18:16:25 ais523: making sure it's FUN 18:16:27 with MATHEMATICS 18:16:33 anyone who disagrees is obviously irrational 18:16:36 it's been PROVEN! 18:17:50 Yeah, I didn't remove the "bad things might happen if you make it resizable" when I pushed the "handle resize events" change, since I'm not entirely sure it actually works. 18:18:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:18:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:19:50 i'm playing with DrScheme because i like colorful pictures 18:19:51 and 18:20:07 stepping through s-exps in runtime 18:20:09 and arrows 18:20:12 whee 18:26:56 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:27:21 -!- elliott has joined. 18:27:22 -!- j-invariant has joined. 18:29:13 -!- elliott has quit (Client Quit). 18:29:22 -!- elliott has joined. 18:30:39 Sgeo: how did you find that i did stuff with factor, anyway? 18:30:51 back 18:32:14 elliott, how about "looking at your Github account"? 18:33:01 Oh, that would indeed work. 18:33:06 Black magicke. 18:33:30 My commit had a last-minute typo, hehe... quite embarrassing when slava told me it was wrong just from looking at it. 18:34:31 elliott: my gitorious login still has that cyclexa thing on it 18:34:39 together with intercal, and nethack-tas-tools 18:34:46 ais523: haha 18:34:56 ais523: btw, as far as i can tell, github's TOS was redone 18:35:00 and now is perfectly benign 18:35:02 as TOSes go 18:35:08 hmm, I'm reasonably active on both gitorious and patch-tag now 18:35:16 patch-tag? haha 18:35:21 but patch-tag is basically dead afaik 18:35:27 darcsden less so 18:35:48 who cares if it's basically dead, it hosts repos 18:36:05 I never really understood the repo-host-as-a-social-network thing 18:36:09 Sgeo either hates or loves darcsden because it's ran by the person who does atomo 18:36:16 ais523: github just uses the social language as marketing 18:36:22 ais523: it's really a "collaborative network" 18:36:33 activity on the site as a whole doesn't matter, even if you were the site's only user it wouldn't matter as long as you can push and other people can pull 18:36:40 ais523: the many-forks-that-get-merged-into-one model is good for a lot of projects 18:36:42 and you can add other people to push 18:36:48 ais523: and things like pull requests _are_ important for that 18:36:52 which plain git lacks 18:37:00 elliott: yes, but why can't people just register on the site to add one? 18:37:10 ais523: plenty of people just have github repos as a mirror of git 18:37:14 hmm, do these sites let you add a pull request from unrelated sites? 18:37:18 if not, they should 18:37:19 ais523: anyway, yes, it could do with more decentralisation, but that isn't much of a viable business model 18:37:22 and no, because there's no protocol for it 18:37:31 git://? http://? 18:37:37 ais523: you don't know what a pull request is 18:37:44 ais523: it only includes certain commits 18:37:55 i believe 18:37:57 make a branch, then, containing only those commits? 18:38:03 ais523: I'm not saying this is how it should be, just that github is more useful than plain git for a certain model of development 18:38:24 elliott: I agree that it might be, but I'm saying that the reasons why it is are easily genericisable 18:38:35 sure, but they haven't been :) 18:38:59 ais523: darcs solves this by using email 18:39:03 which works quite well 18:39:03 Phantom_Hoover, see /msg 18:39:19 elliott: do you have opinions on Google removing H.264 support from