00:00:20 Gregor, I haven't made pen projectiles myself, though. 00:00:28 JesuschristIneedtosleep 00:01:04 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:02:57 -!- Behold has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 00:03:19 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:04:55 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 00:05:35 http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/ClearBF 00:05:40 This project was a scholar project at ENSIAS - Morocco to build a compiler in C/Flex. The team is supervised by Mr. Karim Baîna and Mrs. Mounia ABIK. Members of the team are: [...] 00:05:43 WHY GOD WHY 00:05:50 LOL 00:05:52 http://clearbf.wordpress.com/2011/01/20/clearbf-project-introduced-at-esolang/ 00:05:56 ClearBF Project introduced at Esolang ! 00:05:56 By Yasser 00:05:56 We have just announced the ClearBF Project in the Esolang official website. In fact, we’ve added a new page in the wiki to present our project. 00:06:03 Such an achievement! 00:06:28 WELCOME TO THE FUTURE 00:12:31 This sounds like the sort of thing I used to support 00:13:47 -!- cheater00 has joined. 00:16:40 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:20:00 Sgeo: What kind of thing? 00:20:11 Easy compilation to BF 00:20:12 -!- Wamanuz3 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:20:13 "Make BF 'nice'?" 00:20:29 C->BF is interesting, Scheme->BF would be, anything else, naw :P 00:22:52 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 00:22:53 There's a specific language with that goal in mind 00:23:22 In connection with a brainfuck CPU iirc 00:23:56 http://www.clifford.at/bfcpu/bfcomp.html 00:24:00 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:24:04 Also PEBBLE 00:25:36 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 00:31:59 -!- comex has changed nick to icefire. 00:38:58 icefire: hi comexico 00:43:59 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:45:06 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 00:46:09 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:46:41 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:48:08 -!- icefire has changed nick to comex. 00:51:15 Maybe I should learn Lisp Flavored Erlang 00:52:32 ffffffffffffffffffff 00:54:54 Or I should just learn Erlang 00:55:04 ooc 00:55:20 How do I keep from being bored while looking at ooc? 00:56:07 Better yet: Show me in what order I should read the guide 00:56:28 nooga: can you just 00:56:29 i don't know 00:56:30 hurt Sgeo 00:56:33 make him feel the pain i feel 00:56:55 elliott, surely you must have learned about all these languages somehow 00:57:07 yes, reddit throws me at them. 00:57:18 uhm 00:57:20 atomo for instance i looked at the front page once and decided it was shit. 00:58:57 uh 00:58:57 shit 00:59:01 nooga? 00:59:21 atomo 01:00:12 what about it? 01:00:40 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:02:41 is shit 01:02:45 i just looked at it 01:03:14 -!- sftp has joined. 01:09:10 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 01:15:21 http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/misc/elpp.html 01:15:24 Gregor: So what happened to WIKI! 01:15:34 Exclamation marks in a project name, a sure sign of insanity. 01:15:45 ... you mean Giki? 01:16:28 Ah, read the page. 01:16:40 compilation to BF is completely useless 01:16:40 I turned "Wiki!" into Giki, maintained it for a few years, then it was superceded by Hackiki. 01:17:15 since compiling BF to make programs run faster is pretty non trivial 01:18:03 i should think about an array of primitive, super-fast hardware bf processors in FPGA 01:18:36 then the compilers targeting brainfuck would gain some purpose 01:19:27 brb, sleep 01:23:45 "brb, sleep" :D 01:24:11 Gregor: What language is Hackiki written in? 01:24:28 elliott: A mix :P 01:24:35 More specifically :P 01:24:44 elliott: What little there is that is properly Hackiki is in PHP. The wiki software you actually see is Python. 01:24:57 Gregor: PHP communicating with a chroot? 01:25:01 Oh JOY 01:25:02 :D 01:25:10 PHP does no communicating with a chroot. 01:25:14 PHP knows only plash. 01:25:19 plash does all the chrooting and shtuff. 01:25:32 Gregor: PHP communicating with plash... nope, I'm still vomiting :P 01:25:49 exec("pola-run", "shtuff") OH NOSE 01:25:50 Gregor: I swear plash is overkill >_> 01:26:02 Probably, but it's good fun 8-D 01:26:04 Mostly due to the fact that, despite its huge amount of code, it's still primarily libc-only :P 01:26:36 Which is like writing the cleverest, optimising Brainfuck interpreter ever... in sed, making it one of the slowest out there. 01:26:40 *most optimising 01:27:59 Gregor: Also the Debian-specificity is lame, even if you're a Debian fan :P 01:28:14 (Because "only works on Debian" = "YOU'RE GONNA HAVE TO DEAL WITH DEBIAN STUFF") 01:28:14 Yeah, that is kinda lame *shrugs* 01:28:36 See botte has a Linux-portable layer for sandb... 01:28:55 (In all srsness though, overriding syscalls isn't hard, see: anarchy golf, which has very good sandboxing :P) 01:29:57 I don't want to write something myself, and plash is trivially simple to use. There are other things that have their own system hacked in, but nothing so easily usable as plash that I've seen. 01:30:32 Oh, certainly, it's not something you can fix without a project, I'm just saying that thankfully a project isn't too much work :P 01:31:00 pur-logicsolutions.com/.../White_Paper_7_Shortcuts_To_Lose_Your_Data_And_Probably_Your_Job_1_.pdf --> 01:31:17 Gregor: OK, by "replacing syscalls" I didn't actually mean that. 01:31:26 I meant overriding syscall(). 01:31:45 I forget how to handle statically-linked stuff :P 01:32:00 Do what plash does: Stick it in a chroot. 01:32:20 Gregor: Yeah, but if you're happy relying on a chroot you can just use a chroot... 01:32:45 The chroot is just what it uses to set the lower-bound, I would NOT be happy with a chroot. 01:33:08 Gregor: But you can reduce it to being just-a-chroot by calling syscalls directly or statically linking. 01:33:22 Admittedly a rather empty one, but that's lame; you should be able to use a stock libc imo 01:33:33 because plenty of stuff doesn't use libc :P 01:33:38 OK, so not plenty of stuff, but... 01:33:45 elliott: Fine. Write the system that provides what I need doing that, and I'll use it. 01:33:55 Oh, doesn't exist? Actually a bitch to write? Well then I'll continue using plash. 01:33:58 Gregor: I'm not criticising your choice, I'm thinking out aloud... 01:34:24 I'm just sayin' that "I would NOT be happy with a chroot" is silly, because plash is trivially reducable to a chroot :P 01:34:27 *reducible 01:34:45 It's reducible by attempting to be malicious. 01:34:55 99.99999999% of programs will not see the empty chroot. 01:35:29 I want my Pandora D-8 01:35:42 Gregor: You mean benign programs aren't a security risk, but malicious programs are? 01:35:44 WOW 01:35:59 I cannot think of a response :P 01:36:11 No, malicious programs can't do shit, but benign programs are happy. 01:36:59 Sure. 01:37:05 Oh, I see what you're saying, I'm providing no greater protection than running the program in an empty chroot as a random user. 01:37:06 Well duh. 01:37:12 It's all convenience beyond that. 01:37:15 Right :P 01:37:45 Gregor: But there are programs that don't use libc... and programs you might want to link statically with another libc... etc.; OK, so they're rare, but plash is big enough that it should be platonically perfect :-P 01:37:48 Hmm. 01:37:54 You could do it easily with a kernel module. 01:37:57 * Sgeo ponders Erlang web frameworks 01:38:07 (Although writing to the syscall table is probably Unsupported I imagine it works.) 01:38:14 elliott: Doing it by a kernel module would be frikkin' awesome. 01:38:18 01:38:28 Gregor: Yeah, I am really tempted to do that now... 01:38:41 The practice of replacing syscall table entries is frowned upon by 01:38:41 Linus and the other kernel maintainers -- so much so that the 01:38:41 sys_call_table symbol is no longer exported. This explains why your 01:38:41 module can't find it. If you care to know more details, use google to 01:38:41 find the (many and extensive) discussions about, for and against the 01:38:42 decision. 01:38:55 Gregor: Woot, so it _is_ possible, just so frowned upon that I get to do fun hackery to manage to do it :-D 01:39:05 X-D 01:39:06 [[1. Modify the kernel source to directly include your own system call 01:39:07 code. 01:39:07 2. Modify the kernel source to export the sys_call_table symbol. (Of 01:39:07 course, your modification won't ever make it into the official kernel 01:39:07 source tree but if you're just trying to learn...) 01:39:07 3. Figure out how to dynamically locate the sys call table from your 01:39:09 loadable module. (This is ugly and I don't recommend it, but it 01:39:11 certainly seems feasible. Hint: where in kernel memory could you find a 01:39:13 block of 230+ consecutive words, each of which contains a valid kernel 01:39:15 virtual address?)]] 01:39:20 Gregor: Since when has the Linux kernel policy been to stop people from shooting themselves in the foot??? 01:39:24 By making it a pain? 01:39:33 lawl 01:39:38 Gregor: Oh dear god: 01:39:40 [[I am trying to develope recycle bin like thing in Linux. 01:39:41 For that i need to override unlink sys call!. 01:39:41 Anyways,It is working now!! 01:39:41 David Schwartz wrote: 01:39:41 > Anything that can be done by intercepting a system call can be done 01:39:41 > another way. What are you trying to do? 01:39:41 Not in scope: data constructor `Anything'Not in scope: `that'Not in scope: ... 01:39:42 : parse error on input `do' 01:39:43 > 01:39:45 > DS]] 01:39:46 : parse error on input `]' 01:39:47 WORST REASON TO OVERRIDE SYSCALLS EVER 01:39:54 _EVER_ 01:39:59 lawl 01:40:36 Gregor: Hmm, couldn't you get most of the way by using FUSE, actually? 01:40:40 Time to see if SDL_mixer 1.2.11 does seamless looping of .ogg properly ... 01:40:49 Network access can be restricted in other ways, inside a chroot not much else matters but the fs... 01:40:54 At least that's what I'm thinking. 01:41:04 elliott: Plash doesn't handle networking. 01:41:12 elliott: Actually FUSE does sound like a nice solution. 01:41:18 I know it doesn't. 01:41:33 But yeah, I think FUSE would get you like 75% of what overriding syscalls would, without all the fuss. 01:41:44 Since it's basically equivalent to overriding all filesystem syscalls... 01:41:47 Much more flexible too :P 01:42:15 And the only syscalls are pretty much random local shit + filesystem + network + root-only shit that the unprivileged user can't use anyway :P 01:42:28 Admittedly network would be nice to control... 01:42:45 But there's not much control you could do anyway beyond blanket policies. 01:42:52 There is no netfuse :P 01:42:54 (Yet!) 01:43:01 Gregor: Err, how's that related? 01:43:04 I mean controlling the network syscalls. 01:43:12 Not syscalls. 01:43:13 But you know. 01:43:41 elliott: Well, a user-controllable tuntap (netfuse) + a net version of chroot = tada :P 01:44:11 YES YES YES SEAMLESS LOOPING 01:44:12 Gregor: Hmm, I am confused. You mean create a virtual network device? 01:44:28 elliott: In userspace 01:44:50 Gregor: Can't you? 01:44:59 Gregor: Just make the tuntap a named pipe or a FIFO or whatever the kids are calling it this day. 01:45:01 *these days. 01:45:08 Or even mount /dev as FUSE. 01:45:09 Yeah, I didn't quite think that one through :P 01:45:12 And have it control your tuntap. 01:45:26 Anyway, you can't lock a process to a particular network device (AFAIK?) 01:45:45 Gregor: Can't you "hide" eth0 somehow? 01:45:47 Gregor: Oh, of course. 01:45:54 Gregor: You know how you block network access in HackEgo? 01:45:57 Just do it the same: firewall. 01:46:08 Gregor: And you run the tuntap from /outside/. 01:46:33 So just use that instead of my HTTP proxy. 01:46:34 Fair enough *shrugs* 01:46:57 Gregor: Plenty of legit non-HTTP connections to make :P 01:47:11 Gregor: Hmm, what would the FUSE fs do, anyway, apart from protect certain files? 01:47:38 elliott: Plash is essentially a unionfs, which is nice since I can have a hackiki fs checked out to always be at /hackiki 01:48:01 (A unionfs with its own security system of course) 01:48:14 Gregor: Sure, it's just that I've just forgotten what plash actually protects again :P 01:48:17 Help me out here, brainfart... 01:48:49 w.r.t. the filesystem, it's just about writability. 01:48:58 The rest comes from chroot+random-user. 01:49:45 Gregor: Can't you just do that by setting the owner? 01:50:07 Yeah ... but that's global ... 01:50:35 Gregor: Eh? What local permissions do you have in hackego/hackiki? 01:50:53 RIP The Big Picture. 01:51:27 Pretty minor actually :P 01:51:41 Gregor: Example? I'm really having trouble thinking here :P 01:51:52 Just read on /usr and friends, r/w to /hackiki which is really /tmp/ and read/write to /tmp which is really /tmp/ 01:52:27 Gregor: So basically, it's unix permissions + mapping two directories to process-specific ones :P 01:52:35 http://www.themonkeysyouordered.com/ OH MY GOD THIS IS THE BEST THING EVER. 01:52:39 New Yorker cartoons with literal captions. 01:52:44 http://www.kottke.org/plus/misc/images/literal-new-yorker.jpg 01:53:07 elliott: I used plash because it's easy, not because I needed all of it :P 01:53:26 Gregor: Sure, sure, I just had this LAPSE OF JUDGEMENT where I considered THROWING IT ALL OUT :P 01:53:40 elliott: Note that although plash didn't invent empty chroots and random users, it sure makes them easy to use :P 01:54:04 Gregor: Except that you don't NEED an empty chroot :P 01:54:05 Just read on /usr and friends, r/w to /hackiki which is really /tmp/ and read/write to /tmp which is really /tmp/ 01:54:16 The remapping is the only thing that doesn't fit into straight unix permissions there.. 01:54:18 *there. 01:54:39 elliott: I used plash because it's easy, not because I needed all of it :P 01:54:56 Gregor: Sure, sure, I realise that, you think I'm being antagonistic or questioning your approach or something 01:56:19 I am in no way stopping you from writing the simpler alternative :P 01:57:21 Watching really bad TV shows on Hulu: So awesome. 01:59:17 -!- myndzi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:03:00 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:06:54 I think Erlang may make it too easy to write my own impure functions 02:24:16 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 02:28:04 OK, SDL_mixer is actually pretty awesome. 02:28:10 For some reason I was convinced that it was really difficult to use. 02:28:18 But I just went from no music to perfect seamless looping in no time flat. 02:39:51 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 02:51:32 -!- azaq23 has joined. 02:54:12 -!- azaq23 has quit (Client Quit). 03:04:00 -!- myndzi has joined. 03:11:40 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 03:22:20 -!- pikhq has joined. 03:24:34 -!- calamari has joined. 03:47:44 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:17:23 -!- benuphoenix has joined. 04:18:36 question: out of boredom, i decided to moniter the logs of my linode server. someone is trying to connect to it. what do i do? 04:19:45 -!- benuphoenix has quit (Client Quit). 04:43:03 benuphoenix: hunt them down and **** with them until they stop 05:18:42 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:19:11 -!- sftp has joined. 05:35:04 -!- copumpkin has joined. 05:53:13 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 05:54:18 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 06:37:40 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:19:09 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:19:16 -!- Deewiant has joined. 08:43:24 Apparently IANA is delaying it to create a media event... 08:57:03 Anyway, both main estimates are "today" now... 08:58:26 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:03:53 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 09:07:23 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:08:39 And APNIC is sitting at 1.67 /8s. 09:11:06 -!- cal153 has joined. 09:21:51 The new figures aren't out yet. 09:23:49 I think those figures appear in about 6 hours... 09:44:41 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: ilua). 09:49:43 -!- myndzi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:50:17 -!- myndzi has joined. 10:48:50 -!- oerjan has joined. 11:05:54 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 11:27:09 -!- cheater99 has joined. 12:00:41 -!- Tritonio has joined. 12:00:43 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:07:47 -!- cheater99 has joined. 12:09:30 -!- azaq23 has joined. 12:27:30 That is, I think the figures update at about 15:15Z or so... 12:30:23 And then one will see if today APNIC allocated something like a /14 or something like a /9... 12:34:37 "Warning: This document contains examples of bad code. 12:34:37 " 12:38:50 -!- Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:38:53 -!- j-invariant has joined. 12:43:05 -!- Tritonio has joined. 12:59:05 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:59:28 -!- cheater99 has joined. 13:12:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:17:49 the day everyone has their own IPv6 address is the end of the road for privacy. discuss 13:18:49 quintopia: yeah might as well tattoo everyone with a barcode 13:19:01 Yes, just like everyone with just a single computer at home (with a single IP address) has no privacy nowadays. 13:21:59 friend of mine says there will be nowhere on earth that will legally allow anonymous proxies 13:23:23 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 13:23:39 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:23:49 -!- copumpkin has joined. 13:24:48 -!- Sgeo has joined. 13:26:57 At least IPv6 has no digital signatures (at least outside IPSec). I heard some nutter say it has... 13:30:48 http://www.angryflower.com/thingy.html 13:34:15 But IPSec's a mandatory part of IPv6, so it still counts. 13:34:44 so, raise your hand if you are jealous of Craig Rowin 13:41:52 NSA has sabotaged it enough... :-> 13:43:46 (No, I'm not saying that there's a backdoor in the IPSec specs... There isn't.) 13:49:32 Ilari, are you sure? 13:50:42 Putting backdoor in specs is quite stupid. There are better methods to sabotage it... :-) 14:01:04 http://ninapaley.com/mimiandeunice/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/ME_160_Rivalrous1-640x199.png 14:28:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 14:29:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 14:29:34 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 14:31:10 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving). 14:38:55 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 14:38:57 -!- j-invariant has joined. 14:41:41 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 14:54:10 Gregor, can you actually play the flute? 14:55:29 Phantom_Hoover: Not one iota. 14:55:46 Gregor, that is evidently why your trombute playing sucks, 14:56:02 Quite probably :) 14:56:17 You aren't even tonguing the notes! 14:56:35 I play the piano :P 14:57:41 IPv4 depletion mess: Now someone says that IANA does not plan to delay servicing the request (and thus main reason is APNIC somehow not sending the request). 14:58:29 Pianoflute. 14:58:32 IT MUST BE MADE 14:58:51 Wow... Release date for DNF... 14:59:16 Phantom_Hoover: One of my great life plans is to make a series of instruments in which the note selection is by a keyboard, but the sound production is like the original instrument. 14:59:30 Pianolin. 14:59:33 Phantom_Hoover: So a keyboard horn would be played by lip buzzing, but the note selected by a keyboard and the world's most complicated series of valves. 14:59:49 Kiol is probably the most impossible :P 14:59:58 (Kiol = key + viol) 15:00:47 That's not vastly difficult, except for the difficulty of bowing it while playing the keyboard. 15:00:58 -!- Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:02:44 The problem, in my opinion, is mainly with making double-stops work in any way, and that essentially for it to make any physical sense you'd have to key with your right hand and bow with your /left/ hand. 15:05:15 (And bowing with your left hand is ... it's just wrong) 15:06:11 Double stops would just be pressing two keys, no? 15:09:53 Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, but physically what does that do, and how do you bow it? 15:10:43 (The pianoflute has issues with being either really tiny or several octaves too low to play.) 15:11:40 Phantom_Hoover: I think the trick to that one is that the flute is shorter than the keyboard, and the actual terminus to the flute proper is somewhere midway on the instrument. 15:12:13 Gregor, yes, but how do you blow it? 15:12:53 ... transverse? You'd be holding up your right hand at a bit of an angle to get to the keyboard, and holding it with your left hand. 15:13:21 Alternatively it could go with the bass-flute route and be blown transverse, but then have an immediate bend and actually be held upright. 15:13:49 Gregor, we appear to have come to an insurmountable disagreement. 15:13:58 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 15:14:15 Phantom_Hoover: How is yours played :P 15:14:41 Like a piano, except there's a mouthpiece to blow into. 15:14:50 Well that's a melodica. 15:14:59 It would be difficult-to-impossible to make that produce a flute-like sound. 15:15:10 Why? 15:15:24 Because it's not blown transverse ... you could make a recorderalike like that and have a fipple. 15:15:52 Or The World's Most Impossible Instrument, the keyboe, with a double-reed mouthpiece. 15:16:27 You could even go the clarinet or saxophone route with a single reed (which sound you'll get depending on the rest of the construction) 15:16:40 But for a flute ... that's really got to be transverse. 15:21:45 I have a question about regular languages. An article I'm reading defines them to be "those languages which can be matched in a single pass using a fixed amount of memory". Can someone give me an example of something which fails this? 15:22:12 But for a flute ... that's really got to be transverse. ← yeah, that's the tricky bit. 15:29:10 could anyone please explain what http://oi56.tinypic.com/1qhocx.jpg means? Where does S2 go on B ? 15:30:04 variable: it could go to either 15:30:07 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:30:09 variable: that is nondeterminism 15:30:29 I have a question about regular languages. An article I'm reading defines them to be "those languages which can be matched in a single pass using a fixed amount of memory". Can someone give me an example of something which fails this? ← I'd parse that as "can be matched in finite time by an FSA" 15:30:45 j-invariant, how does it choose? randomly? 15:31:16 variable: it doesn't choose 15:31:20 Phantom_Hoover, that makes a bit more sense 15:31:51 j-invariant, hrm ? 15:31:52 variable: consider the string abbbbbba it can accept that 15:32:10 variable: by going s0 -> s1 -> s2 -> s1 -> s2 -> ... -> s2 -> s3 -> s4 15:32:39 alright 15:37:38 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:37:39 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:38:30 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:42:36 -!- copumpkin has joined. 15:42:55 it's forth stupid? 15:43:27 If I write a program z = 3; w = f(x,y); f cannot destroy my value of z by accident 15:43:32 in forth it can 15:43:35 why would you want that 15:50:38 1.66x/8. 15:52:08 -!- elliott has joined. 15:52:13 IT'S THE FIIINAL COUNTDOOOWN 15:52:47 http://www.carstache.com/ 15:53:18 that was exactly what i expected it to be 15:53:24 it is glorious 15:53:29 02:13:44 I think Erlang may make it too easy to write my own impure functions 15:53:37 Sgeo: I thought you _liked_ that kind of shit. 15:53:46 04:25:30 question: out of boredom, i decided to moniter the logs of my linode server. someone is trying to connect to it. what do i do? 15:53:55 set up a chroot and run ssh in it 15:53:59 when they connect, they think they're root 15:54:04 but every command does weird shit or mocks then 15:54:05 *them 15:54:11 # rm -rf / 15:54:16 I'm sorry Dave, I can't let you do that. 15:54:17 # wtf 15:54:43 13:29:10 friend of mine says there will be nowhere on earth that will legally allow anonymous proxies 15:54:51 quintopia: ah, Friend of Mine, the ultimate authority on everything 15:55:59 elliott: although i did briefly consider the opposite interpretation 15:56:16 oerjan: using a car as ... a moustache? 15:56:35 a moustache shaped like a car 15:56:47 google seems to fail me 15:57:30 15:23:06 Or The World's Most Impossible Instrument, the keyboe, with a double-reed mouthpiece. 15:57:33 Gregor: why does this not exist 15:57:43 elliott: I NOSE 15:57:46 15:28:59 I have a question about regular languages. An article I'm reading defines them to be "those languages which can be matched in a single pass using a fixed amount of memory". Can someone give me an example of something which fails this? 15:57:54 variable: not commenting on whether that's a good definition 15:57:57 variable: but consider a^nb^nc^n 15:58:05 i.e. any number of as, the same number of bs, and the same number of cs 15:58:09 you have to store the number of "a"s 15:58:14 which is an unbounded natural 15:58:19 and, therefore, takes arbitrary amounts of memory 15:58:25 That's not so much a definition as a consequence >_> 15:58:44 right 15:58:44 15:50:10 it's forth stupid? 15:58:45 15:50:42 If I write a program z = 3; w = f(x,y); f cannot destroy my value of z by accident 15:58:55 j-invariant: in Haskell you can say "= undefined" why would you want that 15:59:00 No Forther says that that is a feature :P 15:59:10 You're treating that like it's a purported feature, not a caveat 15:59:21 wha 16:00:03 ? 16:01:11 variable: also matching parentheses is not regular 16:01:37 oerjan: hey that means that you can't even implement finite-tape brainfuck on an FSA :D 16:01:41 *checking for proper matching of parentheses 16:01:46 oerjan: because you can't parse every program 16:01:51 indeed 16:01:54 that is the best 16:02:03 oerjan: hmm, and yet finite-tape brainfuck isn't TC 16:02:08 it's Turing-requiring but not Turing complete 16:02:10 that's weird 16:02:39 elliott: parentheses matching doesn't require TC, just something within context-free 16:02:47 oh right 16:02:59 well point is, it requires a more powerful automaton to run than it can actually "harness" 16:03:09 yeah 16:04:30 actually a^nb^n is enough for not being regular. a^nb^nc^n gives you not even context-free iirc 16:04:37 (stronger pumping lemma) 16:04:57 hmm, someone needs to make a language based on a^nb^nc^n 16:05:03 preferably, with almost no computational power :D 16:05:15 why does that ring a bell 16:06:17 aaabbbccc 16:06:25 a^n b^n c^n is context-sensitive but not context-free. 16:06:36 Same for a^n b^n c^n d^n 16:06:37 aaabbbcccyyyzzzyyywwwiiimmm 16:06:41 slkjgdfgih\ 16:06:42 fdsaxpxo]zp[a;]pojhv 16:06:43 ]; 16:07:33 yeah adding letter doesn't help, context-free == needs at most linear memory 16:07:37 *letters 16:07:42 er 16:07:46 *-sensitive 16:09:41 Fun task: Describe a language that is not even context-sensitive but is recognable by recursive algorithm. 16:10:02 and that's enough for most things you'd want to do in practice, even includes SAT (NP-complete) 16:10:50 Ilari: ML/Haskell type checking iirc 16:11:08 or possibly that's just on the border of unknown equality 16:12:59 -!- variable has quit (Quit: hit 60 second ping time - reconnecting). 16:13:09 oerjan: What's the complexity class of that (at least the bounds for the class)? 16:15:02 -!- invariable has joined. 16:15:19 elliott, what does Turing-requiring mean? 16:15:32 it's something i just made up and ignore me 16:15:47 also a^nb^nc^n == a* b*c* in regex 16:15:55 erm wait 16:15:57 sorry 16:15:59 == 16:16:17 also a^nb^nc^n == a{n}b{n}c{n} in regex 16:16:29 or is {n} not regex anymore? 16:16:34 Ilari: bah i'm having trouble googling it 16:16:38 invariable: no that's not valid regex 16:16:49 regex = REGular EXpressions, most regexp implementations are actually more powerful than regular languages 16:16:52 but it's still mostly regular :) 16:16:54 thus the name 16:17:15 only perl regexes can do a^nb^nc^n i think 16:17:30 elliott: discussion we had recently at work: not counting (??{}) and (?{}) (i.e. embedded Perl), are Perl regexen TC? 16:17:33 elliott, actually I lied 16:17:39 aaaaaaabbbbbccccc 16:17:45 or whatever N happens to be 16:17:46 I'm not entirely convinced Perl regexen /can/ do a^nb^nc^n 16:17:51 invariable: hm? 16:17:55 (although they can definitely do a^nb^n, and regular expressions can't) 16:17:56 ais523: I suspect you can do a^nb^nc^n with the same stuff you use to do nested parens 16:18:10 elliott: you can't, nested parens can be done by a PDA, a^nb^nc^n can't 16:18:11 elliott, when you say ^n you just mean repeating N times - right? 16:18:19 invariable: yes 16:18:23 invariable: yes, but the point is that it's the same n for each of them 16:18:23 invariable: all Ns must be the same 16:18:33 ais523: hmm, well you can do something similar: let a be (, b be (, and c be )) 16:18:35 so aabbcc matches but aabbccc doesn't 16:18:41 elliott: that checks that a+b = c 16:18:41 then c's n must be a's n plus b's n divided by two 16:18:47 err, right 16:18:48 umm, a+b = 2c 16:18:50 right 16:18:58 ais523: which is close but not exact 16:19:03 elliott, ah - so your defining N by the first pattern. I thought N was fixed. 16:19:06 aha, I think you might be able to do it via zero-width assertions 16:19:08 ais523: now, if you can somehow localise the checking that a and b are the same 16:19:17 you could check that a+b = 2c and that a=b 16:19:21 ais523: then that becomes a+a = b+b = 2c, and thus -- yup 16:19:24 that's what i said :) 16:19:28 and thus 2a = 2b = 2c, ergo a=b=c 16:19:39 invariable: right 16:21:57 Ilari: ah, "An example of this phenomena is the complexity of Type Inference in ML which was shown. to be complete for EXPTIME in [HM]." 16:22:21 ais523: hmm, wait 16:22:44 ais523: I'm thinking you'd treat a as (, b as [ (just like ( but a different char), and c as )) 16:22:45 or, ah 16:22:49 c as ]), even 16:22:50 wait, no 16:22:52 Ah, that's between context-sensitive and recursive. 16:22:58 elliott: that doesn't work 16:23:02 ais523: it doesn't? 16:23:07 what doesn't 16:23:11 Ilari: although i don't think it is known whether EXPTIME is larger than PSPACE so that _might_ not actually be an example 16:23:14 a as (, b as [, c as [) 16:23:18 *c as ]) 16:24:03 although the general beliefs would imply that it is 16:24:22 ais523: right, i meant c as )) 16:24:28 and b would be treated as ( for that stage 16:24:37 that still doesn't prove that a=b, at all 16:24:49 ais523: well, you'd do the first part by treating a as ( and b as ) 16:25:05 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 16:25:20 Ilari: anything EXPSPACE-complete will certainly work, however 16:25:23 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:25:31 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:25:36 -!- cheater00 has joined. 16:26:06 Ilari: "An example of an EXPSPACE-complete problem is the problem of recognizing whether two regular expressions represent different languages, ..." 16:27:29 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 16:30:10 elliott: 16:30:16 /^$|^(?=(?a(?&x)?b)c+$)a+(?b(?&y)?c)$/ 16:30:20 that took a bit of working out 16:30:23 Yes, PSPACE is strict subset of EXPSPACE, so EXPSPACE-complete problems are not in PSPACE. 16:30:23 elliott: "Is it possible to write bug free programs in haskell" reply: "why would you want to do that" 16:30:27 it could be golfed from there, I was trying to keep it readable 16:30:31 j-invariant: I agree; who said that? 16:30:36 ais523: now do it in cyclexa 16:30:45 :/ 16:30:46 * ais523 tries to remember Cyclexa syntax 16:31:03 (a*)(b*):1(c*):1 16:31:08 assuming I've remembered what : does correctly 16:31:19 there is definitely an operator that does that, I might just have got the wrong character 16:31:20 elliott: somone said " you can give formal proof your behavior" and I asked how and he said he didn't know 16:31:35 j-invariant: Writing a bug-free program -- as in *writing* one -- is far, *far* more trouble than it is worth. Writing a buggy program, and then iteratively improving it, is far more productive and practical, 80% of the time, IMO. 16:31:40 the Cyclex'as much simpler 16:31:44 *Cyclexa's 16:31:47 Of course formal verification is useful often, especially for data structure libraries and the like. 16:31:52 XMonad has a few components formally proven, I believe. 16:31:56 Ilari: to be precise every context-sensitive language is in PSPACE, and some PSPACE-complete problems are, although not all since needing linear memory is not closed under polymial reductions 16:31:56 *xmonad 16:31:59 as it has a "parse trees are equal" assertion 16:32:10 "bug free software is by definition trivial" 16:32:18 *problems are context-sensitive 16:32:35 *languages 16:32:53 elliott: the compilers I'm creating as part of my PhD are formally proven 16:32:59 mostly because the proofs are more interesting than the compilers 16:32:59 that reminds me of the famous knuth quote: "I have only proved this correct ...." 16:33:05 in fact, they exist only in proof form atm 16:33:15 and it isn't executable 16:33:16 ais523, where are you doing your PhD ? 16:33:17 * oerjan thinks if he keeps adding *-corrections deciphering them might end up being NP-complete 16:33:29 invariable: Birmingham University 16:33:30 invariable: birmingham! ok i swear i will stop answering people's questions for them some day 16:33:31 some day 16:33:32 SOE DAY 16:33:35 *M 16:33:45 elliott: ninja'd 16:33:54 to be fair, you didn't answer my question for me 16:33:57 because I'd already answered 16:33:59 ais523: I typed it slowly to seem less creepy 16:34:00 :D 16:34:04 oerjan: I don't see why you'd think that 16:34:07 *walrus 16:34:29 elliott: anyone the sense I get form #haskell is don't bother writing correct programs 16:34:32 oh look, P==NP has been proven again 16:34:39 j-invariant: I agree. 16:34:40 elliott: since they don't exist, your an idiot if you want a program that works, etc . 16:34:43 I'd be more excited if P==NP and P!=NP weren't proved so often 16:34:44 ais523, some day... :-) what is your thesis on? 16:34:46 j-invariant: I don't agree. 16:35:06 invariable: compiling software to hardware, via type systems 16:35:12 j-invariant: But I believe writing mostly-correct programs and then iteratively improving them is far, far more productive in many, many cases than writing programs that are correct the first time. 16:35:18 ais523: I don't know why so many people care, probably just because there is money on it 16:35:30 because it's an important problem 16:35:32 j-invariant: also because it's a really irritating problem, in a sense 16:35:32 ais523: Nobody gave a shit with the BQP thing that was recently proved 16:35:34 and an interesting one 16:35:37 elliott: you're an important interesting problem 16:35:40 if P does != NP, there's no obvious way to prove it at all 16:35:56 I'd say the details of the proof would be more interesting than that for, say, Fermat's Last Theorem 16:36:00 it's like "Hey im a complexity theorist when people prove HUGE resuts in the field" 16:36:15 scott aaronson cares about everything! 16:36:22 * oerjan swats elliott -----### 16:36:26 [[When people want to emphasize how pathetically far we are from proving P≠NP, they often use the following argument: for godsakes, we can’t even prove that NEXP-complete problems aren’t solvable by depth-3, polynomial-size circuits consisting entirely of mod 6 gates! 16:36:26 But no more.]] 16:36:33 at least the latest P == NP result is an algorithm for 3-SAT that actually has source available, so errors should be quite easy to find 16:36:39 ais523: isn't that just because you understand computation much deeper than modular forms? 16:36:48 j-invariant: perhaps 16:36:55 I may be biased 16:36:59 most people are 16:37:03 personally, I know fine well that when it's proved I will not be able to understand a single word 16:37:12 are there any interesting theorems that depend on fermat's last? :D 16:37:16 I would have to spend decades studying this stuff to get to that level 16:37:21 it seems completely useless, off the top of my head 16:37:28 ais523: the nice thing about P=NP proofs with algorithms is that it's easy to test them on actual hard cases 16:37:45 oerjan: "Now we're just waiting for the A(G64,G64) constant to run out." 16:37:56 ah, Slashdot has worked it out already, apparently it doesn't work in all cases 16:38:06 so it's just an algorithm for solving special cases of 3SAT, which obviously doesn't prove P=NP 16:38:15 yup 16:38:30 ais523: slashdot, the home of complexity theorists 16:38:50 elliott: the thing I love about Slashdot is, whatever the story, there will be exactly one comment by someone who really knows what they're doing that explains the whole thing 16:39:00 and it's worth putting up with the other 500 or so comments of nonsense just to find that one 16:39:21 (more than one person who knows what's really going on often reads Slashdot, but once one completely correct explanation is posted, the others don't bother) 16:39:27 Sgeo will be so sad, Stargate Universe has been cancelled 16:39:56 +1 16:40:12 elliott: it was an opinion of his obviously...i was asking for alternate opinions 16:40:14 ais523: I'm surprised there isn't some super-secret invite-only version of Slashdot for just the people who post those kinds of comments :P (okay, not *very* surprised) 16:40:29 quintopia: um i think it's a stupid opinion, everyone already has an IP address now, to some approximation 16:40:30 elliott: the same people are the people who post all the junk on other stories, though 16:40:42 you think making the two separate computers in your house have different IP addresses will change anything? 16:40:46 elliott: that's obviously incorrect, there are more people in the world than there are IPv4 addresses 16:40:56 ignoring things like Qatar's country-wide NAT, because they're edge-cases 16:40:58 scary thought, isn't it? 16:40:59 ais523: I mean people on the Internet 16:41:06 not really 16:41:17 now I'm wondering how Qatar /does/ NAT a whole country 16:41:23 elliott: i agree. but it can't be denied that there is some influence at work in the world to make piracy more difficult 16:41:27 surely sometimes they have more than 65535 people trying to connect at once? 16:41:36 quintopia: umm 16:41:44 quintopia: nice conspiracy, but IPv6 has been around for a LONG time 16:41:50 before piracy fighting became the hot thing... 16:42:06 RFC 2460 was published in 1998 16:42:08 this is not about IPv6. this is about anonymous proxies 16:42:15 you said it in the context of ipv6 16:42:17 what is this opinion? IPv4 being deliberately limited in order to prevent people torrenting? 16:42:24 LO 16:42:25 ais523: "very vague" 16:42:28 *LOL 16:42:28 anyway, it is impossible to block all anonymous proxies 16:42:32 IPv4 is far older than torrenting 16:42:33 well, i meant it as a completely different discussion 16:42:34 because setting one up is trivial 16:42:47 ais523: 16:42:47 13:25:00 the day everyone has their own IPv6 address is the end of the road for privacy. discuss 16:42:47 13:26:00 quintopia: yeah might as well tattoo everyone with a barcode 16:42:54 coppro: I know, but elliott implied that it was a stupid opinion, and I was trying to think up a suitably stupid opinion that fit in the context of the conversation 16:42:57 first line is wrong, second line is wrong 16:43:10 elliott: second line is arguably sarcasm 16:43:17 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 16:43:21 ais523: I mean last line 16:43:22 not second line 16:43:24 the first line is also the opinion of the friend i disagree with 16:43:27 there were only two lines 16:43:33 quintopia: your friend is stupid :D 16:43:36 ais523: err? 16:43:37 ais523: there were four 16:43:42 13:25:00 the day everyone has their own IPv6 address is the end of the road for privacy. discuss 16:43:42 13:26:00 quintopia: yeah might as well tattoo everyone with a barcode 16:43:42 13:26:11 Yes, just like everyone with just a single computer at home (with a single IP address) has no privacy nowadays. 16:43:47 now there are three 16:43:49 ... 16:43:51 something seems wrong with your copy/paste 16:43:52 lol 16:44:00 13:25:00 the day everyone has their own IPv6 address is the end of the road for privacy. discuss 16:44:00 13:26:00 quintopia: yeah might as well tattoo everyone with a barcode 16:44:00 13:26:11 Yes, just like everyone with just a single computer at home (with a single IP address) has no privacy nowadays. 16:44:07 still three 16:44:13 ais523: you have some ignore or something 16:44:18 (1) 13:25:00 quintopia 16:44:23 (2) 13:26:00 j-invariant 16:44:25 i also see only three 16:44:27 (3) 13:26:11 fizzie 16:44:30 (4) 13:29:10 quintopia 16:44:33 elliott: herobrine only saw three 16:44:40 what the fuck :D 16:44:46 and it's (4) that I'm missing 16:44:46 fix your client? 16:44:48 -!- copumpkin has joined. 16:44:51 umm i wonder if i have some script that's broken 16:44:59 * *** Message to #esoteric throttled due to flooding 16:45:02 well that explains it 16:45:07 fucking freenode 16:45:14 ok let us try that again 16:45:17 13:25:00 the day everyone has their own IPv6 address is the end of the road for privacy. discuss 16:45:20 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX 16:45:24 13:26:00 quintopia: yeah might as well tattoo everyone with a barcode 16:45:26 it makes more sense than the several minutes of fakelag that flooding used to give you 16:45:27 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX 16:45:31 13:26:11 Yes, just like everyone with just a single computer at home (with a single IP address) has no privacy nowadays. 16:45:34 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX 16:45:38 13:29:10 friend of mine says there will be nowhere on earth that will legally allow anonymous proxies 16:45:40 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX 16:45:42 there 16:46:01 the last one seems a little implausible just due to the instability of various countries 16:46:11 Somalia is actually an anarchy IIRC, it legally allows anything because there are no laws 16:46:18 no, somalia has a government now i think 16:46:24 progress! 16:46:31 I *think* 16:46:37 I think its populace would certainly want a government, at least 16:46:37 ais523: also, that's a strange interpretation; it (was/is) locally ruled by mobs 16:46:45 anarchy tends not to work too well in practice 16:46:52 elliott: indeed, that's what happens in an anarchy 16:46:57 I wouldn't call that law, though 16:47:03 ais523: no 16:47:07 ais523: you're strawmanning anarchy here 16:47:11 Somalia has never been an anarchy 16:47:13 hmm, perhaps 16:47:26 ais523: it's like telling a socialist "hey, go and live in soviet russia LOL if you think that's so great LOL" 16:47:28 at what point does a mob become a government? 16:47:36 when it eliminates all the other mobs 16:47:41 hmm, good answer 16:49:59 going in the other direction, at what point does a government become a mob? 16:50:16 ooh, idea: you know how you treated B Nomic as an esolang a while ago? 16:50:21 when someone on twitter says so 16:50:22 I wonder if you could do that with real-world governments 16:50:22 ais523: when other mobs appear that manage to override its power in some cases 16:50:39 ais523: (arguably, governments are just a certain /type/ of mob, and so they never cease to be one) 16:50:47 hmm 16:53:38 also, Duke Nukem Forever now has a specific release date (May 3) 16:54:05 afair the "mobs" in somalia weren't without law, it's just that their law is an even-more-than-average fucked up version of sharia 16:54:16 right, somalia wasn't lawless, just fractured 16:54:31 (i.e. punishing women for _being_ raped) 16:54:41 ouch 16:54:42 there _was_ that thing about their market being so free that they had the absolute lowest SMS prices in the world, but that's not quite worth the rest of the situation there :) 16:54:54 (and also ignores all the /downsides/ of a totally unrestricted economy) 16:55:29 I can't believe that in the US it costs to _receive_ a text message 16:55:55 i think that model is going out of style elliott 16:56:00 the fuckers 16:56:24 in the UK, it never costs to receive a call or text 16:56:44 except when the other person explicitly reverses the charges, in which case the operator phones you up and asks if you're willing to accept a reverse charge call 16:56:56 in the US, wireless companies are trolls and milk you for whatever money they can get 16:57:20 *everywhere, 16:57:28 (or in a few cases like the one we have at home, where in addition to our normal phone number, we have a reverse charge phone number where we pay for anyone phoning it; it's stupidly long to prevent anyone guessing it, and exists so that I can call home via payphones in emergencies) 16:57:51 ais523: Couldn't you just reverse the charges in the normal way? 16:57:54 elliott: in the UK it's less than in the US because there's lots of competition, although instead of giving people good deals, the wireless companies mostly just try to confuse the hell out of everyone 16:58:02 I don't actually know how that works here though 16:58:08 you have to contact the operator and ask 16:58:16 and with an operator involves, things get more expensive 16:58:19 *involved 16:58:26 Yeah, but it's for /emergencies/ :P 16:58:32 I used to regularly phone home reverse-charge from school, not for emergencies at all 16:58:39 the reverse-charge number was my usual method of contact 16:58:44 because I didn't have a mobile, and didn't want one 16:59:03 the number still works AFAIK, but I hardly ever end up needing to use a payphone nowadays, mostly because most of them no longer exist 16:59:16 but I've needed to a couple of times in emergencies, and typed in the whole number and it still works 16:59:27 (the number starts 0800, so it works from payphones too) 16:59:29 So what is it, 0123456789876543210? 16:59:32 :p 16:59:44 nah, it's 23 digits long 16:59:57 and at that length, unlikely to be guessed 17:00:25 (the first 10 are the same for all reverse charge numbers, though, and follow a pattern; the other 13 provide the entropy) 17:02:28 -!- Oklopol has joined. 17:02:41 O 17:02:43 lol 17:02:45 http://yro.slashdot.org/story/11/01/20/2028252/Facebook-Images-To-Get-Expiration-Date err, no thank you 17:03:03 prediction: X-Pire will never be implemented for Linux 17:03:04 SECURITY EXCEPTION: Please type in your mothers madien name: 17:03:16 causing Linux to be useless on Facebook (OK, this one is a stretch, it does not appear to be associated with facebook at all) 17:03:19 thus causing its death 17:03:32 wow that's a pretty stupid idea 17:03:39 what's to stop people just saving the key with the image? 17:03:48 -!- Oklopol has changed nick to oklopol. 17:03:48 ais523: worse is the Slashdot-quality reporting, which suggests that it's in any way affiliated with Facebook 17:03:49 lame 17:03:56 especially the title 17:03:59 indeed 17:04:03 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 17:04:14 what I assumed that would mean would be that facebook would automatically delete images after a while 17:04:23 elliott: what the hell that makes no sense 17:04:30 there is no cryptographic way to do that 17:04:35 which would actually be useful, but which would never happen because facebook users probably use it for the purpose of keeping the photos around forever 17:04:43 It's not cryptography, it's CRYPTOLOGY! Like cryptography but less scientific! 17:04:48 unless the "date" is actually a password that comes from facebook.org 17:04:50 We used astrological measurements to invent the scheme! 17:04:57 hahahaha 17:04:57 j-invariant: lol ".org" 17:05:02 facebook the non-profit 17:05:06 wow it redirects to .com 17:05:07 give me the MD5 hash of your name + crush 17:05:12 and ill tell you if youre a match 17:05:18 IIRC the Artemis Fowl books needed something like that for plot reasons, they invented a sort of virus that physically lived on the bits, being copied along with them, and degraded them over time 17:05:26 ais523: thus solving piracy! 17:05:28 which is good enough for fiction, I suppose 17:05:35 and more plausible than most of the DRM schemes people come up with 17:06:02 sounds like something from discworld... 17:06:05 at least it isn't obviously completely broken, the only problem is the physical impossibility because bits don't work like that 17:06:38 but what happens if you use the analogue hole :) 17:06:41 does it INFECT the result? 17:07:24 elliott: the character in the book used the analog hole specifically to get a permanent copy before it degraded completely 17:07:28 ais523: you're a pope, ais523 17:07:30 as of 4 minutes ago 17:07:35 G. is asking you if you're ready 17:07:35 elliott: Agora? 17:07:35 Agora 17:07:37 yes 17:07:47 I should look up what that means 17:07:54 it looks important 17:08:08 Viewing these images requires the free X-Pire browser add-on. Currently only a version that works with Firefox is available. Those without the viewer will be unable to see any protected image. 17:08:08 I wonder if you're a dictator 17:08:18 how are these people able to call themselves "researchers"?? 17:08:23 they are just plugin authors 17:08:35 this is not research this is engineering 17:08:38 in the book, the virus was used in order to transmit a message without the source being traceable, the idea being that the analog hole would save the video, but not the source information 17:08:47 j-invariant: you can do research into engineering, I suppose 17:08:58 ais523: it's not a research problem to write a stupid little plugin :/ 17:09:04 that's what I am trying to say 17:09:11 the research is probably the DRM algo 17:09:14 this makes zero sense, they are using "research" to sound authoratative 17:09:22 plenty of research involves engineering to demonstrate its effectiveness 17:09:22 and the plugin just an implementation 17:09:35 like in my PhD where the research is the algos for contructing the compiler, and the engineering is the compiler itself 17:09:46 OK, that spam is pointless 17:09:47 ais523: hmm, I vaguely recall that virus thing (I read the books, but many years ago) 17:09:48 I don't like fracebook 17:09:56 subject: xvff85; content: wq5 17:09:58 that's it 17:09:59 a book for your fraces 17:10:02 ais523: but asodij409? 17:10:43 how should I know? 17:10:53 ais523: hmm, maybe jsdg9 17:11:27 hmm, the pope rules still don't actually do anythign 17:11:29 *anything 17:12:13 also, I think I'm platonically ready 17:12:19 due to being a pope 17:12:19 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 17:12:30 popes are defined to be ready, that's what G. was referring to 17:12:55 we have a policy that we are ready 17:13:11 hmm, I think I'm going to read every single log of #esoteric, in order, from the first day to the last 17:13:32 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Client Quit). 17:14:01 to be brutally honest, I don't *beleive* in timing attacks 17:14:24 your belief is incorrect... depending on your definition of timing attacks 17:14:32 -!- pumpkin has joined. 17:14:35 it's absolutely ridiculuous 17:14:37 elliott: got a copy of the Vladivostok Telephone DIrectory handy, btw? 17:14:49 oh wait a second TCP timing attack makes sense 17:15:02 j-invariant: don't believe they can work? don't believe they exist? don't believe they're useful? 17:15:06 don't believe anyone tries them? 17:15:13 ais523: http://www.nomer.org/vladivostok/ 17:15:14 ais523: I did not belive anyone uses them successfully 17:15:46 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:15:53 elliott: it's now a requirement (not just a SHOULD) to read the vladivostok telephone directory in the first week of February 17:15:59 because people were getting bored a couple of months ago 17:15:59 if something takes 34 microseconds that means what? You would have to know my CPU and how much other stuff I was computing at the same time etc 17:16:14 ais523: hmm, can I NoV you for that? 17:16:19 perhaps we should change it back before the first week of February actually happens 17:16:32 AGAINST 17:16:34 elliott: oh, I'm going to find a few phone numbers in Vladivostok and read those, it's close enough 17:16:39 also, you should NoV Yally, e's the Pariah 17:16:49 ais523: very insufficient, also, what does pariah do again? 17:16:53 maybe I'll NoV everyone 17:17:06 pariah wins if e goes long enough without accumulating Rests 17:17:09 the idea is that everyone picks on them 17:17:18 for even really minor rules breaches 17:17:30 then i'll just NoV everyone 17:17:31 problem solved 17:17:42 you can't, NoVs are rate-limited 17:17:45 (IMO, the burden of proof is on YOU to prove that you obtained and read the Vladivostok telephone directory :)) 17:17:49 ais523: injustice! 17:17:57 I'll need your help, then 17:18:04 elliott: except it isn't, the burden of proof is on the judge 17:18:12 or, well, the person bringing the NoV, indiretly 17:18:14 *indirectly 17:18:20 oh, I just mean that I'm not going to bother to /ask/ anyone before NoVing them 17:19:27 hmm, this one's shorter: http://pozvoni.net.ua/eng/yadro/179 17:19:38 and has a funky sidebar 17:20:10 i'm glad i am not participating in this nomic 17:20:15 it sounds evil 17:20:38 it isn't normally, just people were getting bored 17:21:10 quintopia: but it's the longest-running Nomic by far! 17:21:19 in fact, it's heading towards its 18th birthday 17:21:25 although i wonder if it won't almost die before then 17:22:11 surely it's had winners in that time... 17:24:07 quintopia: winning doesn't end the game 17:24:26 I've won over ten times now, I think 17:24:42 -!- asiekierka has joined. 17:24:46 hi 17:25:54 I wonder what timing attacks are relevant 17:25:57 most of them seem nonsense 17:26:01 05.10.20: Lisp/Scheme program text 17:26:39 we also have java, pascal and c++ programs as logs 17:26:41 *for logs 17:27:01 file(1) is pretty bad at identifying programming languages 17:27:50 Hey, cpressey was here in '05. 17:28:14 12:42:06 Where's {^Raven^} :P 17:28:15 12:42:17 Whatever happened to {^Raven^}... 17:28:15 12:42:37 nevermore. 17:28:22 12:43:31 Maybe the two working ones exploded :-P 17:29:25 'haskell sucks, I should stop going 17:29:34 now I'm trying to remember when I joined #esoteric 17:29:42 I know I was active on the wiki first, and found the channel via the wiki 17:31:05 07.01.15:09:15:34 --- join: ais523 (n=chatzill@chillingi.eee.bham.ac.uk) joined #esoteric 17:31:05 07.01.15:09:16:16 So there are people on #esoteric at the moment after all, then? I was monitoring the logs to see if anyone was online, but somehow I never seem to be online at the same time as other people... 17:31:10 -!- impomatic has joined. 17:31:19 There are no 800 pound gorillas. Very obese gorillas held in captivity may top out at 600 lbs at most. A healthy, strong, alpha gorilla out in the wild would weigh no more than 350-400 lbs. 800 pound gorillas are pure fantasy. 17:31:22 can i be the channel's official archivist, that would be nice 17:31:39 elliott: ah, that hostname brings back memories 17:31:51 12:58:02 ^AACTION is not!^A 17:31:53 wait what... 17:31:58 (those are literal ^As in the log) 17:32:09 also, I've been here just over three years, it feels like longer 17:33:10 -!- invariable has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:33:13 in other news, the video formats war is getting steadily more ridiculous 17:33:25 05:21:54 I did Bitwise Cyclic Tag in Excel. 17:33:25 05:22:09 And I don't mean a macro or anything. 17:33:26 05:22:21 with cell arithmetic? 17:33:27 Microsoft released a plugin for Firefox on Windows that makes it do H.264 in the