00:01:14 -!- cheater- has joined.
00:02:32 <fizzie> if (t > (data->pause_char+data->pause_word)/2 && t <= 2*data->pause_word) {
00:02:35 <fizzie> log_debug("[libsilly/morse] Based on the timing, appending a space to %d.", ch);
00:02:58 <elliott> fizzie: Aww, I was hoping you just wrote it when you needed to copy a file one day.
00:03:59 <elliott> 14:22:35 <oerjan> i used it in Malbolge Unshackled to create an infinite lazy datastructure containing IORefs. afaik that usage is perfectly safe.
00:04:29 <elliott> !haskell mdo iorefs <- (:) (unsafeInterleaveIO newIORef) iorefs
00:04:32 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:05:32 <Sgeo> But... do doesn't DO anything!
00:07:21 <elliott> GHC used to support the flag -XRecursiveDo, which enabled the keyword mdo, precisely as described in A recursive do for Haskell, but this is now deprecated. Instead of mdo { Q; e }, write do { rec Q; e }.
00:13:18 <elliott> justOnes = do { rec { xs <- Just (1:xs) }
00:13:18 <elliott> ; return (map negate xs) }
00:13:27 <elliott> "As you can guess justOnes will evaluate to Just [-1,-1,-1,...."
00:13:44 <elliott> see http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/6.12.3/html/users_guide/syntax-extns.html#recursive-do-notation
00:14:27 <zzo38> I don't need all the features of other systems. Only commands should be have is: send, receive, list, logs. And then have files in the directory such as ".vcsconfig" and ".vcsstate" to tell such things as which files should be listed, text/binary, server to connect to, which is your current version if you want to upgrade, and so on.
00:14:33 <zzo38> Is there any such things?
00:15:35 <elliott> zzo38: No. So you get to write your own!!
00:16:50 <zzo38> I can write my own but I would still need a remote server for running this system.
00:18:03 <elliott> my server is far too loaded, with irc logbots
00:19:10 <zzo38> It should also be acceptable to have multiple servers in case someone else wants copies of it too.
00:21:00 <zzo38> I suppose there is also the way to make it without server, in case you want to copy the packets by disks or by IRC or whatever.
00:25:18 <elliott> greebdogifiericificjiojewofijaejgdfklm
00:32:29 <Sgeo> Maybe I should email Stony Brook
00:32:54 <elliott> Sgeo: Email..st..for what purpose
00:33:18 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/silly.ogg <-- have something extremely silly I just wrote
00:33:24 <Sgeo> To try to figure out if I could get accepted into grad school or not, try to figure out what's going on
00:34:00 <Sgeo> Gregor, I like it
00:34:14 <elliott> I'm not sure me and quintopia have accurately conveyed just how worthless Sgeo's degree is going to be.
00:34:19 <elliott> Shall we have another bash at it?
00:34:31 <pikhq> Sgeo: No. No you could not.
00:34:45 <elliott> Sgeo: Transfer, you dumbass!
00:34:48 <elliott> There, that's enough work for me.
00:34:52 <elliott> quintopia: we're awaiting your statement.
00:35:03 <Sgeo> I want something to show my dad
00:35:12 <Sgeo> A response from them would probably be sufficient
00:35:24 <elliott> Sgeo: YOU CAN TRANSFER WITHOUT ASKING YOUR FATHER FIRST
00:35:36 <pikhq> Sgeo: You may have trouble even transferring.
00:35:46 <pikhq> Sgeo: As most of your classes have been *useless*.
00:36:03 <Sgeo> pikhq, my English classes haven't been, possibly
00:36:13 <pikhq> Those will transfer just fine, I bet.
00:36:23 <pikhq> But you're looking at literally having *the entire CS curriculum* to do.
00:36:39 <elliott> pikhq: Better than starting from square 1, still.
00:36:41 <Sgeo> I think that's what my dad is getting at. I'd have trouble getting homework done in non-computer courses at a more difficult college
00:36:47 -!- Mannerisky has left (?).
00:36:55 <elliott> Sgeo: So transfer and keep your non-CS courses.
00:37:25 <Sgeo> I still have more non-CS courses to do maybe. I'm not sure
00:37:32 <pikhq> *I* can get my homework done. And I'm a guy who actually spent a couple years not doing homework in high school until the very last minute.
00:37:40 <pikhq> "The very last minute" was literally "finals week".
00:37:43 <j-invariant> "You don't need a type system to avoid SQL injection, you just need to stop being terrible at programming."
00:37:57 <elliott> Sgeo: Getting homework done is easier when you're not at a shitty school with tedious work...
00:39:54 <pikhq> Sgeo: You'd have a more useful degree if you went to a 2-year college and got an associates.
00:40:27 <zzo38> Can I find a code to compute the message hash? I should use a fast one but secure.
00:40:32 <Gregor> All this hatin' on Sgeo is getting in the way of people praising my beautiful work X-P
00:40:50 <pikhq> Gregor: How dare you.
00:40:57 <Sgeo> Gregor, move it out of tmp and someplace more permanent
00:41:08 <Gregor> Sgeo: tmp is actually pretty permanent X-D
00:41:21 <elliott> We're not hatin' on Sgeo, we're hatin' on Sgeo's college.
00:41:28 <elliott> We're trying to help him to not be stuck in shitland with shit degree.
00:41:46 <elliott> What's your course called again Sgeo?
00:41:51 <elliott> Computer and Information Systems?
00:41:56 <Sgeo> Computer Programming and Information Systems
00:42:16 <elliott> Gregor: Sgeo thinks he might be able to get into grad school at Stony Brook with a degree in Computer Programming and Information Systems from Farmingdale State College.
00:42:28 <Gregor> I refuse to comment on this matter.
00:42:35 <elliott> Me and pikhq are _trying_ to beat logic into the man.
00:42:38 <Sgeo> elliott, right now, I just want to contact someone to confirm whether I can or not.
00:42:48 <pikhq> Gregor: The CIS program in question has data structures as a senior-level course.
00:42:48 <elliott> j-invariant: With that degree, his chances are pretty much nil.
00:43:04 <pikhq> Gregor: And yes, that class *is* the equivalent of what you probably did your freshman year.
00:43:09 <elliott> j-invariant: We're trying to spare him going to college again at a respectable university which would involve starting from scratch.
00:43:18 <coppro> probably 2nd year here
00:43:30 <Sgeo> elliott, I'll be starting from scratch no matter what, right?
00:43:44 <elliott> Sgeo: You'll almost certainly be able to keep your non-computer courses.
00:43:56 <elliott> And possibly even some of the computer ones, but pikhq will know more than I.
00:43:59 <j-invariant> apparently it's really hard to get into uni these days
00:44:12 <j-invariant> since aparently everyone is applying ??? due the recession ??
00:44:18 <j-invariant> this makes zero sense to me, but that's what newspaper says
00:44:29 <pikhq> elliott: He will probably be able to get one transferred as the intro to CS class.
00:44:41 <elliott> Sgeo: So: No, you won't be starting from scratch.
00:44:54 -!- augur has joined.
00:45:02 <elliott> If you transfer now, you'll almost certainly be able to skip 90% of the non-computer shit, plus a bit of the CS.
00:45:07 <elliott> j-invariant: "Knoll's Law of Media Accuracy: Everything you read in the newspapers is absolutely true except for that rare story of which you happen to have firsthand knowledge."
00:45:15 <pikhq> elliott: He will need math, though.
00:45:26 <elliott> pikhq: Better than starting from scratch.
00:45:28 <pikhq> elliott: His CIS program requires almost none.
00:45:32 <Sgeo> I'm taking a statistics course now.
00:45:32 <elliott> hey doesn't augur go to stony brook
00:45:34 <Sgeo> Does that help?
00:45:49 <augur> im at university of maryland now
00:45:50 <elliott> Sgeo: But point is, you'll have a lot less work to do than starting from scratch :P
00:45:53 <pikhq> Sgeo: If it's not shitty it'll probably transfer, and will probably be a degree requirement.
00:46:11 <elliott> augur: could Sgeo get into grad school for CS with a degree titled "Computer Programming and Information Systems" from SUNY Farmingdale
00:46:30 <elliott> <pikhq> Gregor: The CIS program in question has data structures as a senior-level course. <pikhq> elliott: He will need math, though. <pikhq> elliott: His CIS program requires almost none.
00:46:36 <augur> no idea, but i cant imagine why he couldnt
00:46:39 <elliott> just gettin' an opinion here :P
00:46:40 <augur> Sgeo: you went to farmingdale?
00:46:46 <Sgeo> augur, going to
00:46:51 <elliott> augur: his course is /really/ shitty
00:47:04 <augur> i didnt know you're on long island!
00:47:06 <elliott> i'ma let pikhq come up with words to describe how shitty it is
00:47:09 <elliott> because i lack the vocabulary
00:47:10 <augur> we couldve hung out!
00:47:18 <pikhq> It requires more *business classes* than math!
00:47:28 <pikhq> IT REQUIRES BUSINESS CLASSES, FOR GOD'S SAKE
00:47:37 <elliott> but it's about INFORMATION SYSTEMS
00:48:51 <pikhq> Oh, sorry, that data structures course *isn't even required*.
00:49:10 <elliott> augur: TALK SOME SENSE INTO SGEO
00:49:37 <Sgeo> augur, I want something to present to my dad more than "#esoteric says so"
00:49:43 <Sgeo> Thus, an email
00:49:55 <pikhq> You could take "Programming in Visual Basic" to meet your basic programming requirement!
00:50:02 <augur> not sbu university
00:50:11 <elliott> the most respectable university!
00:50:15 <coppro> are we making fun of Sgeo's institution again?
00:50:17 <Sgeo> pikhq, the Data Structures course is in C++, so that makes no sense, but yes
00:50:18 <pikhq> elliott: Then put your PIN number into the ATM machine.
00:50:20 <augur> sbu - stony brook university
00:50:26 <augur> I BET YOU SAY PIN NUMBER TOO
00:50:37 <elliott> nothing wrong with RAS syndrome
00:50:46 <elliott> you should know that, mr. descriptivist :P
00:51:43 <pikhq> Sgeo: Why are you so hung up on what your dad thinks?
00:51:51 <pikhq> Sgeo: It's pretty clear that he has no fucking clue.
00:51:55 <elliott> bcuz his dad is god incarnate!
00:52:59 <pikhq> Sgeo: If you don't transfer to a more respectable university you will be qualified to ask, "Would you like fries with that?".
00:53:12 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> nothing wrong with RAS syndrome ← other than being pointless.
00:53:20 <elliott> pikhq: that requires a degree in advanced McDonalds!
00:53:38 <elliott> "PIN number" is easier to read in a lot of cases
00:53:44 <elliott> you don't read "PIN" as "Personal Identification Number"
00:54:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Now we have moved inescapably into the subjective, so there's no point arguing further.
00:54:52 <elliott> hmm, the ClearBF authors have edited the page, but not looked at either its talk page or their account's talk page
00:54:58 <elliott> augur: you argue with him, you have the CREDENTIALS
00:55:11 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/silly.ogg <-- Hey guys, still have something extremely silly I just wrote X-P
00:55:21 <elliott> Gregor: GAVE UP AFTER 15S DUDE
00:55:23 <pikhq> Gregor: Needs more cowbell.
00:55:41 <augur> elliott: im not going to argue with someone over the pointedness of something like RAQ
00:55:47 <Gregor> elliott: Actually, the cowbell comes in at 18s.
00:55:54 <elliott> Gregor: INSUFFICIENTLY SOON
00:55:56 <elliott> ALSO PROBABLY NOT ENOUGH OF IT
00:56:20 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: I'm just trolltrolling :P
00:56:34 <Phantom_Hoover> First you invent a trombute and completely fail at playing it, and now this!
00:56:44 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: lots of language is pointless on the surface, and its not subjective since we can do studies. does this pertain to RAS? who knows. its not a significant enough thing about language to worry about.
00:56:54 <elliott> My favourite instrument is the xylotheremin.
00:56:57 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Hey, this is awesome :P
00:57:03 <elliott> You just sort of hold your hands above the relevant keys.
00:57:07 <elliott> augur: no, you have to kill him now
00:57:12 * augur kills Phantom_Hoover
00:57:27 * augur kills Phantom_Hoover irl
00:57:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes we do, Adhamhnan.
00:57:43 <elliott> Or however the fuck you spell your retarded name.
00:57:46 <pikhq> augur: The issue of "which is preferable", however, is inherently subjective when both options are equally understandable and natural-seeming.
00:57:51 <fizzie> Gregor: Perhaps you should switch to a zeusaphone.
00:57:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you don't know where i live either
00:58:01 * Sgeo sends the email
00:58:06 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I know you live in Hexham and I know your surname.
00:58:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Good luck with that :P
00:58:26 <augur> pikhq: indeed, and hence why i said its not significant
00:58:41 <pikhq> That said, I still think RAS syndrome is silly.
00:59:01 <pikhq> My thoughts on the matter don't change anything at all, of course, but it's still silly.
00:59:02 <Phantom_Hoover> I looked it up once and there weren't any famous people at all.
00:59:16 <pikhq> And obviously the work of the Department of Redundancy Department.
00:59:28 <elliott> pikhq: You have no idea how much redundancy the typical English sentence contains, dude :P
00:59:42 <augur> language is incredibly redundant
00:59:45 <elliott> pikhq: You no idea how redundancy typical English sentence contains.
00:59:51 <augur> for the same reasons that communications protocols have redundancy
00:59:55 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: his surname is Hird
01:00:08 <pikhq> elliott: Well, I do know that most all human-relevant data has very low entropy.
01:00:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's enough that finding me will be non-trivial :P
01:00:26 <augur> pikhq: we operate over very noisy channels
01:00:42 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, it's the sort of number you could kill before breakfast.
01:00:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: we're not listed
01:00:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: so GOOD LUCK
01:03:14 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, ALSO THERE MUST BE LIKE 2 SECONDARY SCHOOLS THERE
01:03:32 <elliott> One middle school too afaik :P
01:04:01 <elliott> Yeeeeess... there are two systems and we have the three-tier one.
01:04:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, I'm sure there's only like two people in Scotland with YOUR name :P
01:04:20 <elliott> j-invariant: 8-12 year olds
01:04:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, one of them is you.
01:04:42 <elliott> j-invariant: implement my language!
01:04:47 <elliott> (I'm already implementing it)
01:04:54 <elliott> hmm there was some problem with it, wonder what it was :D
01:06:40 <Sgeo> elliott, how's Amethyst coming?
01:07:01 <elliott> Sgeo: have i mentioned that it has sandboxing
01:07:12 <Sgeo> Now you have. This makes me feel happy.
01:07:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, you should return the favour and get a transfer.
01:08:23 <elliott> Sgeo: In fact, EVERYTHING is sandboxed!
01:08:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
01:13:34 * Sgeo goes to watch more DS9
01:19:25 -!- nooga has quit (Quit: leaving).
01:19:46 -!- nooga has joined.
01:26:20 <zzo38> Is there a way to make git work with a list file?
01:26:26 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
01:28:42 <zzo38> What is a SSH randomart image?
01:29:54 <j-invariant> zzo38: well I think gpg generates them but I am not sure why
01:30:35 <zzo38> I am using the program "ssh-keygen" though.
01:33:51 <elliott> zzo38: I think it's some thing that shows your public key or something.
01:34:21 <elliott> zzo38: BTW, git was created by Linus Torvalds to manage the Linux kernel.
01:35:55 <zzo38> Does git allow specifying whether a file is text or binary file?
01:36:26 <elliott> zzo38: It automatically recognises binary files, but yes, you can: http://www.kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/gitattributes.html
01:36:44 <elliott> zzo38: For instance "*.foo -crlf" would make all .foo files binary.
01:37:08 <elliott> -crlf is deprecated, -text is equivalent.
01:37:15 <elliott> You can also tell it that the file is text by saying text.
01:37:19 <zzo38> Currently I have no binary files to upload to the repository, I want to make all files as text.
01:37:33 <elliott> zzo38: It behaves like that by default, I bleieve.
01:37:43 <elliott> zzo38: But to be sure, you could do:
01:37:52 <elliott> If you want to interoperate with a source code management system that enforces end-of-line normalization, or you simply want all text files in your repository to be normalized, you should instead set the text attribute to "auto" for all files.
01:38:01 <elliott> zzo38: So just create a .gitattributes file with the contents:
01:38:24 <pikhq> Hmm. Google doesn't help when finding Elliott.
01:38:34 <elliott> pikhq: I...stop talking me :P
01:39:01 <pikhq> Especially as there is a second Elliott Hird in Hexham.
01:41:23 <zzo38> I am a bit confused with using git. How can I make a shell script that adds the files according to a list file, and then sends all changed files when I tell them to send?
01:42:08 <elliott> zzo38: Is there something wrong with this?
01:42:13 <elliott> $ git commit -a commits all files in the repository
01:42:17 <elliott> $ git add foo adds a new file to the repository
01:42:22 <elliott> $ git rm foo removes a file
01:42:32 <elliott> zzo38: That's equivalent to having a list file, except to add you use "add", and to remove you use "rm".
01:42:40 <elliott> zzo38: You can use "git status" to see what files are in the repository.
01:42:44 <elliott> Files that aren't in the repository are shown with ? in front.
01:43:38 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
01:45:15 <zzo38> Do I need: git commit; git remote add origin ...; git push --all origin; like it tells me on the webpage?
01:45:29 <zzo38> When I type "git status" it lists all file under "untracked files" with # at the front.
01:45:39 <zzo38> I do not want to upload all of the files.
01:45:43 <elliott> zzo38: You only need to do "git remote add origin ..." and "git push --all origin" once.
01:45:47 <elliott> That will not add all of the files.
01:45:55 <zzo38> So I type "git add" and the filenames?
01:46:05 <elliott> zzo38: From then on, you just need to do "git commit -a" to make a local commit, and "git push" to give your changes to the server.
01:47:28 <elliott> zzo38: Actually do not do "push --all", just do "git push origin".
01:47:40 <elliott> After you make your first commit with the files, of course.
01:52:53 -!- pikhq has joined.
01:58:19 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving).
02:02:50 <zzo38> Can it be told to only add files that are changed, and tell it that files that are not part of the list are removed (but still kept on the local filesystem and in the deleted files area of the server)?
02:03:11 <elliott> zzo38: It does only add files that are changed, if you do "git commit -a".
02:03:18 <elliott> zzo38: And yes, it does not commit files that are not on the list.
02:03:22 <elliott> To remove a file from the list use "git rm filename".
02:05:26 <zzo38> Do I need --cached option when removing files?
02:06:41 <elliott> "git rm foo" will not touch your current files.
02:07:09 <elliott> zzo38: "git rm --cached foo" removes foo without removing it from your current directory.
02:07:38 <elliott> zzo38: If you have removed some files from your directory without using "git rm foo", just use "git add -u" and git will delete the files that are no longer there from the list.
02:07:56 <zzo38> Do I do like this? git add -- `cat vcslist`
02:08:12 <elliott> zzo38: No, you just do "git add somefile" to add somefile to the list.
02:08:16 <elliott> "git rm somefile" removes somefile from the list.
02:08:20 <elliott> "git status" shows you the list.
02:12:00 <zzo38> What happens if I use "git add" with a file that has already been added and not modified?
02:12:31 <zzo38> Does that make it safe to do so?
02:12:37 <pikhq> elliott: Börk börk börk.
02:12:40 <elliott> zzo38: But why would you want to?
02:12:56 <zzo38> In case I keep a separate list file.
02:13:04 <elliott> zzo38: Why? Git already has a list file.
02:15:32 <quintopia> i was out having a life and risking it and getting drunk and meeting hot girls elliot
02:15:41 <elliott> well, Sgeo is more important
02:15:54 <quintopia> but now i am fully willing to support you in your assessment of sgeo's degree as worthless
02:16:04 <elliott> appreciated but SADLY BELATED.
02:16:54 <quintopia> relay my feelings of disgust to him next time he comes around
02:20:55 <Sgeo> Erlang won't get out of my head1
02:21:44 <elliott> Sgeo: amethyst has concurrency
02:22:16 <Sgeo> Amethyst has to be compilable to machine code, and also capable of running on BEAM, and on Android
02:22:35 <Sgeo> Because BEAM's awesome?
02:22:40 <elliott> Sgeo: Not as awesome as machine code.
02:23:11 <elliott> Sgeo: Android, sure, that would be possible.
02:27:36 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
02:27:47 <zzo38> Hay, it's work now!!!
02:28:21 <elliott> zzo38: I see your commit. You should do: git config --global user.name zzo38
02:28:33 <elliott> zzo38: Also you did not add a commit message?
02:28:50 <elliott> http://repo.or.cz/w/TeXnicard.git/blob/c69b4f72ef872a35db284b772b06a82e47cc0af3:/vcslist You should probably not track vcslist in the repository
02:29:08 <Sgeo> There are people who don't do commit messages, besides the other person on my project?
02:29:26 <elliott> Sgeo: <quintopia> but now i am fully willing to support you in your assessment of sgeo's degree as worthless <quintopia> relay my feelings of disgust to him next time he comes around
02:30:50 <pikhq> "Inside sources" claim that IANA's been asked to do the final allocation, and they just need to finish the press release before doing so.
02:31:13 <zzo38> elliott: Why shouldn't I track vcslist in the repository?
02:31:23 <elliott> zzo38: Well, it just seems strange to.
02:31:23 <pikhq> Not that that means much... Even if that's BS, final allocation's within the week.
02:31:44 <elliott> zzo38: You could call it MANIFEST instead of vcslist, that's quite common.
02:32:00 <zzo38> And, I did the git config after that commit I realized, so hopefully next time it will use the username and email registered with repo.or.cz.
02:32:46 <zzo38> And didn't I add a commit message?
02:33:06 <zzo38> I just used "`date`" as the commit message, because it is mandatory.
02:33:29 <elliott> zzo38: You should describe your changes in the commit message, so that other people can see what you have changed.
02:33:33 <elliott> Otherwise it is hard to look through the history.
02:33:40 <elliott> That is the purpose of using a version control system.
02:34:13 <zzo38> I do not always remember what changes I made. I just make some changes and then send them when I want to send it.
02:34:42 <elliott> zzo38: If you do "git diff", you can see what changes you have made. Also, you can do "git commit" every time you make a significant change, and then do that multiple times before pushing.
02:34:49 <elliott> You can commit as many changes as you want before pushing.
02:35:26 <zzo38> And it does not seem to treat the files properly, I looked at the files and it says "\r" at the end of each line.
02:35:58 <zzo38> How can I make it remove it when sending, but to add it when receiving the files on a Windows computer?
02:36:26 <zzo38> Where is .gitattributes file?
02:36:39 <elliott> It is hidden from "ls" by default.
02:36:58 <zzo38> There is no such file, probably I have to create it?
02:37:23 <zzo38> Is a single line with "* text" good enough?
02:37:23 <elliott> And add the line "* text" to it without quotes.
02:37:43 <elliott> zzo38: You do not need to add the .gitattributes file to the repository, but you can if you want to.
02:38:58 <zzo38> OK, I fixed it now.
02:41:15 <zzo38> Also this time it commit with the correct username and email address, the same ones I used for register with the service. Please do not try to send message to this email address; it will probably bounce due to unreachable server.
02:41:39 <elliott> zzo38: But will you start making proper commit messages?
02:43:20 <zzo38> Did I configure everything correctly on the repo.or.cz service?
02:43:57 <elliott> 4 % Licensed by GNU GPL v3 or later version. Modified versions of this
02:43:57 <elliott> 5 % program must not be called "TeXnicard" without permission from the
02:44:02 <elliott> 10 % whatever you want, as long as they are not part of this file and it
02:44:04 <elliott> 11 % requires the user to compile it themself.
02:44:21 <elliott> You cannot license your program under the GPL version 3 with those restrictions, you must make your own license or use another one.
02:44:38 <zzo38> elliott: I thought there was some option in GPLv3 which permits some restrictions?
02:44:49 <elliott> zzo38: Yes but that restriction is not allowed
02:45:01 <zzo38> Then how can I rewrite it to make it allowed?
02:45:03 <elliott> zzo38: Also, anyone can remove the additional restrictions.
02:45:31 <elliott> zzo38: You cannot, with the GPL.
02:45:40 <elliott> zzo38: You should remove your extra text and just license it under the GPLv3.
02:45:59 <elliott> zzo38: Also, your terms are non-Free, and Debian will not include your program in its operating system because of that.
02:46:09 <elliott> So you should consider removing the restrictions.
02:46:14 <zzo38> I think I am trying to use option 7c.
02:46:23 <zzo38> I am not intending to make it non-Free.
02:46:36 <elliott> zzo38: No, that is not true. Misrepresenting the origin would be saying you wrote it.
02:46:41 <elliott> You cannot prohibit people using the name TeXnicard.
02:46:51 <elliott> zzo38: But you could say that they have to say "my version of TeXnicard" instead.
02:46:56 <zzo38> Can option 7e do that if I make it the trademark?
02:47:32 <elliott> zzo38: Yes, but you would have to pay, to make the trademark. Also, Debian would have to rename your program to include it.
02:47:36 <zzo38> I don't care if people say they wrote it I just don't want people to call incompatible versions also "TeXnicard".
02:48:00 <elliott> zzo38: Well, you have to. But you can make it so that people have to clarify that it is not the real TeXnicard, just their version of it.
02:48:53 <zzo38> elliott: Yes, that is my intention, that they are not allowed to claim it is the real TeXnicard.
02:49:32 <elliott> zzo38: OK, you should say instead: Modified versions of this program must, if they are called "TeXnicard", clarify in their included documentation that their modifications are not part of the official TeXnicard.
02:49:38 <elliott> zzo38: But I think that might be non-Free, too.
02:49:54 <zzo38> And isn't there such thing as unregistered trademark? (As long as "TM" instead of "(R)"?)
02:50:16 <zzo38> elliott: Why do you think that might be non-Free? Don't many projects already do that and called Free?
02:50:31 <elliott> zzo38: No, you cannot use that exception with an unregistered trademark, only a registered one.
02:50:35 <elliott> And no, no other Free project does it.
02:50:57 <elliott> Firefox does it, but Firefox is not Free by default, and this is why Debian calls it Iceweasel; GNU also have their own version of Firefox because of this, called IceCat.
02:52:15 <elliott> zzo38: Also, Debian only renamed Firefox because many people use it, if it is a smaller project, they will probably reject it completely.
02:53:17 <Gregor> elliott: The LaTeX license (LPPL) has roughly that restriction.
02:53:57 <elliott> Gregor: I do not think so.
02:58:43 -!- macrohauler has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
03:01:21 <zzo38> What do I type if I want to ensure that modified versions are not misrepresented as the official version of this program?
03:01:43 <elliott> zzo38: That is already prohibited by the GPL, I think.
03:03:14 <pikhq> elliott: The TeX license only allows the use of the TeX name if it strictly conforms to some test of TeX correctness.
03:03:33 <elliott> pikhq: Yes, but that is not this restriction.
03:03:42 <Gregor> pikhq: COMMENT ON MY AWESOME SILLY MUSIC
03:03:45 <pikhq> LaTeX, though, has a clause stating "You must not distribute the modified file with the filename of the original file."...
03:04:17 <pikhq> elliott: Ah, sorry, it *used to* have that clause.
03:04:21 <zzo38> I do not care about filename, as long as it is clear that it is not the official version of TeXnicard.
03:04:30 <elliott> zzo38: Nobody will impersonate TeXnicard.
03:04:34 <elliott> The license does not allow it.
03:04:52 <pikhq> The current license has the same requirement as the GPL: modified components must not be misrepresented as original.
03:05:12 <elliott> zzo38: So the GPL already has what you want.
03:05:18 <pikhq> zzo38: BTW, DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT add odd license requirements.
03:05:27 <elliott> "Or the fire monster will get you!"
03:05:32 <elliott> The thing is, the GPLv3 allows anyone to remove them.
03:05:36 <elliott> So you can't really add much.
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03:05:49 <zzo38> OK I removed everything else now and it just says "Licensed by GNU GPL v3 or later version."
03:06:15 <pikhq> zzo38: At best, it makes people hate you. At worst, it makes it damned hard for any distro to have your package.
03:07:05 <elliott> pikhq: And with the GPLv3, almost all additional restrictions can be removed.
03:07:15 <Sgeo> pikhq, examples of this happening?
03:07:29 <zzo38> Now I removed that problem from my program.
03:07:34 <pikhq> Sgeo: It is near impossible to package it right.
03:07:54 <Sgeo> As in, that's an interesting example
03:08:11 <pikhq> I think the only distro not having to make some sort of peculiar arrangement for it is Slackware.
03:08:25 <pikhq> And that's because Slackware doesn't really patch stuff.
03:08:39 <elliott> pikhq: Even so, Slackware should rename it just so that it is not packaging a non-Free program.
03:08:49 <pikhq> elliott: Slackware has never given a shit.
03:09:08 <pikhq> Once upon a time it included Netscape.
03:09:28 <elliott> Was redistributing Netscape even /allowed/?
03:09:39 <pikhq> Well, once they made it gratis.
03:10:13 <pikhq> Pretty sure Debian had it in nonfree for a (short) while.
03:11:54 <elliott> pikhq: hmm, was netscape ever not gratis?
03:12:43 <zzo38> I doubt I am ever going to include any binary files in the repository for TeXnicard, since they can be compiled from the other files. Even such things as logos can be created using GF-Magick or something like that.
03:13:11 <pikhq> elliott: It was made gratis because of Internet Explorer being gratis.
03:15:26 <zzo38> Did I add enough Content tags to the repository?
03:15:46 <zzo38> And is there a way to remove the Content tags in case they have been added by mistake?
03:15:47 <elliott> Probably. Hay, you did not enter a good commit message!
03:16:43 <zzo38> I don't think I need a commit message, I just have a script that automates sending the files to the repository.
03:17:15 <elliott> zzo38: But that is what the purpose of a version control system is!
03:17:21 <elliott> You are meant to enter a commit message so that the history can be tracked.
03:17:29 <elliott> Otherwise there is no point in using a version control system.
03:17:43 <zzo38> But you can still track the history. You can still look at the changes!
03:18:01 <elliott> zzo38: But you are meant to be able to track the history without looking at the changes.
03:19:00 <Sgeo> zzo38 is Epsilion!
03:24:29 <zzo38> How long is the commit message allowed to be?
03:24:52 <elliott> zzo38: The first line should be less than 60 or at least 80 characters. 55 is probably the best limit.
03:25:01 <elliott> zzo38: But then you should have a blank line and as many as you want to describe the change. But you can leave those out.
03:25:08 <elliott> So you can just write one short line if you want.
03:25:15 <elliott> Like: "Optimise text procedures."
03:26:22 <zzo38> Do I use -F for multiple lines commit message?
03:26:48 <elliott> zzo38: No. If you just say "git commit -a", it will open an editor for you. You can set what editor it uses by setting the EDITOR environment variable.
03:27:06 <elliott> zzo38: But it must wait until you close it before the command exits, so EDITOR=notepad will not work because it exits immediately!
03:27:18 <elliott> You can also use -F if you want (-F - reads from standard input.)
03:27:25 <elliott> (And if you make a mistake you can use Control+C to cancel it and try again.)
03:33:38 <zzo38> OK I fixed the commit message.
04:08:26 <pikhq> So, there I was, calmly harvesting some wood...
04:08:38 <pikhq> When a TREE FREAKING DECIDES TO COEXIST WITH ME, THEREBY KILLING ME.
04:08:55 <elliott> pikhq: Try digging out in futute.
04:09:02 <elliott> pikhq: Or just blame Notch -- was there a sapling below you?
04:09:04 <elliott> If so, yeah, don't do that.
04:09:13 <pikhq> And now I can't find any of my stuff.
04:09:17 <elliott> It's just tree intercourse, gone horribly wrong.
04:09:23 <elliott> pikhq: It's near the tree :P
04:10:14 <pikhq> Fucking hell. There goes my diamond tools and some redstone.
04:10:52 <elliott> pikhq: Also, you have a full diamond toolset?
04:11:04 <elliott> pikhq: Are you still playing on Peaceful? Because, y'know, man up at this point.
04:11:10 <pikhq> elliott: No, but I had the relevant diamond tool.
04:11:22 <elliott> pikhq: ARE YOU PLAYING ON PEACEFUL
04:11:54 <pikhq> Yes. If I hadn't been I would have died several times by now. Because the tree spawned at me at the very start of night!
04:12:25 <pikhq> And my spawnpoint is not *that* close to where my stuff is.
04:12:32 <elliott> pikhq: If you have armour you can survive at night :P
04:12:52 <pikhq> elliott: When you die you start WITHOUT ITEMS
04:13:14 <elliott> pikhq: Well. Right. But it's semi-easy to run back to your base ... dig an underground tunnel to it with a door to enter maybe? :P
04:13:35 <pikhq> elliott: It's not like dying comes up often for me...
04:13:41 <pikhq> I've been playing on peaceful!
04:13:42 <elliott> pikhq: It will if you go off Peaceful :)
04:14:06 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
04:15:38 <elliott> pikhq: When your biggest enemy is a tree, it's time to turn off Peaceful :P
04:16:14 <pikhq> IT TOOK MY DAIMOND
04:16:24 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: ... Yeeessss.
04:17:24 <pikhq> quintopia: It's not there!
04:17:37 <pikhq> I did, however, kill all trees.
04:17:46 <elliott> Cause trees to go extinct!
04:18:25 <quintopia> pikhq: YOU elliott: HE CAN MINE IT AGAIN
04:18:52 <pikhq> quintopia: Diamond is rare. Insanely rare.
04:19:01 <elliott> quintopia: Do you actually play MC :P
04:19:11 <elliott> this isn't #esoteric-minecraft
04:19:16 <elliott> I was wondering why all you fuckwits were in here
04:19:21 <elliott> pikhq: Oi, get to the proper channel!
04:19:36 <elliott> quintopia: And destroy 70% of it ...
04:19:51 <zzo38> How do I remove a content tags from git repository?
04:20:02 <elliott> That's not a git thing, that's just a repo.or.cz thing.
04:21:10 <zzo38> How do I remove a content tags from repo.or.cz thing?
04:22:01 <elliott> zzo38: By emailing the administrator, I think. Why?
04:22:14 <elliott> The service is maintained by the admin team as a public service for the Git community, please contact admin@repo.or.cz with any requests, proposals, issues or patches - the underlying engine is fully open-source and easy to deploy. Or you may be also interested in other Git hosting sites.
04:22:17 <zzo38> There is a tag "porn" by mistake. You could use the program to make pornographic cards, but it is not the intention to do so. This repository does not contain anything pornographic.
04:22:21 <elliott> zzo38: So I think you email admin@repo.or.cz.
04:25:11 <zzo38> Is there some kind of prefix to tell it to delete a tag?
04:26:05 <elliott> zzo38: I do not think so. You have to email admin@repo.or.cz.
04:28:12 <zzo38> I looked at the source-codes for their system and in fact they do not have a command to tell it to delete a tag.
04:28:25 <elliott> zzo38: OK, that is why you should email admin@repo.or.cz.
04:28:26 <zzo38> But they probably should, in case some tags are added by mistake.
04:28:42 <zzo38> elliott: I don't have email.
04:28:54 <elliott> zzo38: But you used an email to sign up.
04:29:12 <zzo38> elliott: That is receive-only, and only when my SMTP server is running (which at this time, it isn't).
04:29:24 <elliott> zzo38: OK, well, you will have to send an email to them in some way to remove the tag.
04:29:48 -!- azaq23 has joined.
04:30:42 <zzo38> No, I don't think they should remove the tag. I think they should add a command for removing the tag.
04:30:51 <elliott> pikhq: http://gergo.erdi.hu/blog/2010-05-16-compiling_haskell_into_c++_template_metaprograms/
04:31:04 <elliott> zzo38: OK, then the tag will stay there. If you had email you could email them to suggest that they add a feature to remove tags.
04:31:17 <elliott> zzo38: You could even press the "fork" link on the repo.or.cz source, add that command yourself, and ask them to merge it back.
04:31:47 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
04:33:15 <elliott> But you would have to ask them using email.
04:34:06 <zzo38> I do not have any email!
04:35:22 <elliott> zzo38: Then you cannot ask them. But you could easily get an email address...
04:35:54 <zzo38> I do not want any email.
04:36:05 <elliott> Then you cannot ask them and the tag will have to stay.
04:36:25 <zzo38> Do they have any postal mail?
04:36:57 <elliott> zzo38: Why do you not want email?
04:37:02 <Sgeo> What's wrog with the tag?
04:37:41 <zzo38> Sgeo: The tag is mistake, it is not the correct tag.
04:38:07 <Sgeo> MetaFun is officially my new favorite language
04:49:31 * Sgeo looks at Erlang's TV
04:50:46 <elliott> <elliott> pikhq: http://gergo.erdi.hu/blog/2010-05-16-compiling_haskell_into_c++_template_metaprograms/
04:51:00 <augur> whats with c++ templates
04:51:45 <augur> what do they do thats so magical
04:51:58 <elliott> now exCUSE me, i'm watching a minecraft video!
04:52:12 <augur> haskell's type system is exponential worst case
04:52:28 <augur> how do you even get into super-exponential domains
04:52:41 <augur> templates are related to type systems, right?
04:52:45 <augur> or am i mixing things up
04:53:04 <elliott> they're like java generics
04:53:08 <augur> thats what i thought
04:53:10 <elliott> or rather java generics are like them :P
04:53:13 <augur> generics are parametric polymorphism
04:53:19 <augur> like parametric types in haskell
04:53:24 <augur> or so #haskell says
04:53:33 <augur> and thats what it seems like to me
04:54:11 <augur> so if its almost TC to parse and typecheck C++ because of templates, wtf is going on
04:54:26 <elliott> *like type classes in haskell
04:54:32 <elliott> augur: um it's not actually that esoteric...
04:54:43 <elliott> anyway stfu im watching this video
04:54:47 <augur> i love haskell's type system, btw
04:56:25 <elliott> it's not powerful enough :P
04:56:58 <augur> but its sexier than fuckin C#'s type system
04:57:06 <augur> i just love haskell
04:57:26 <augur> i wouldnt mind it if it had OO support and the options of a more powerful type system
04:57:29 <augur> but i love its syntax
04:57:57 <augur> its pretty useless, yeah
04:58:26 <augur> what i like most about OO is the style
04:58:38 <elliott> functional style beats all!
04:58:44 <augur> ok let me rephrase that
04:58:49 <augur> i like postfix notation for certain things
04:59:30 <augur> alsp, i like the almost (but certainly not quite) reactive style that OO promotes
04:59:39 <augur> i dont think most people think of OO that way
04:59:42 <elliott> solution to all problems :D
05:00:08 <elliott> augur: (note: fully generic implementation of FRP that doesn't leak space requires a lazy specialiser which is an open research problem :D)
05:00:15 <elliott> well, doesn't require, but it's the only way anyone knows how to do that
05:00:26 <augur> dunno what a lazy specialiser is
05:00:36 <Gregor> OO is like a beautiful woman, who you want to make love to to prove to your dad that you're not a homosexual, but you just can't get it up, so you take some blue pills (functional paradigm) and ...
05:00:40 <augur> i know conal thinks that we should have good multithreading to make it truly shine, tho
05:00:48 <elliott> Gregor: ...and then your analogy breaks down.
05:00:53 <Gregor> "..." = nonsense metaphor taken too far :P
05:00:55 <augur> also, you're still gay
05:01:08 <elliott> augur: luke palmer is in cohorts with conal and he's the main proponent of specialisation for FRP :P
05:02:11 <augur> i feel that OO should be reconsidered in light of haskell type classes
05:02:21 <augur> elliott: im talking to Gregor
05:02:50 <elliott> Gregor: THAT VIDEO YOU DIDN'T WANT GETTING OU-- stupid Minecraft shit
05:03:48 <Gregor> I have only one thing to say to you, elliott.
05:03:55 <augur> Gregor: he's underage
05:04:31 <Sgeo> I should be nighty eating
05:04:47 <Gregor> Eating nighties doesn't sound wise at all.
05:05:06 <elliott> HE WILL DEVOUR THE BLACKNESS
05:06:07 <Gregor> "Nighty" is another word for "nightgown"
05:06:25 <Gregor> It's a black nightgown?
05:06:49 <elliott> Like Gregor Richards cannibalistic racist.
05:07:04 <pikhq> augur: Like being underage ever stopped anyone from watching porn.
05:07:18 <augur> no but it generally stops people from talking about porn to the underaged
05:07:23 <augur> it being a crime and all
05:07:42 <elliott> Is it really a crime for an underaged person to pretend to be 18 and to watch porn?
05:08:02 <pikhq> No, it's a crime to knowingly give an underaged person porn.
05:08:13 <elliott> Right. And websites can hardly do better than asking, since, well, this is the interwebs :P
05:08:19 <augur> its a crime for someone >=18 to give porn to someone <18
05:08:31 <elliott> augur: yes, but consider a website
05:08:33 <augur> or to talk about it
05:08:37 <Gregor> Even parent->child, even though in any good family that's a 16th-birthday tradition :P
05:08:41 <elliott> /talk/ about it, are you sure
05:08:50 <augur> i cant talk about sex with you
05:08:54 <augur> unless its in an educational fashion
05:09:00 <pikhq> It could be breach of contract for someone underage to pretend to be 18 and then watch porn, *if they could agree to contracts*.
05:09:06 <pikhq> augur: Lies and deceit.
05:09:08 <elliott> At least I don't think freedom of speech has been pooped on THAT much.
05:09:14 <elliott> I would be very, very surprised if that were true.
05:09:25 <augur> if i asked elliott what his cock looked like i'd be breaking the law
05:09:32 <pikhq> augur: In many states in the US, it would be legal to *actually have sex* with elliott.
05:09:43 <augur> its state-dependent
05:09:51 <augur> elliott: dont worry, you're not my type ;P
05:09:55 <augur> i dont like girls, after all!
05:10:09 <pikhq> And, anyways, it's too late for me to give a shit about stupid laws.
05:10:22 <pikhq> I've already earned a few thousand years in jail with DMCA violations.
05:10:25 <augur> where's oklopol when we need him
05:10:45 <pikhq> elliott: I don't think it is.
05:10:47 <elliott> are you sure, i don't believe you
05:10:58 <augur> i dont have citations
05:11:01 <augur> its just common knowledge
05:11:07 <pikhq> augur: [US Constitution, 1st Amendment]
05:11:08 <elliott> common knowledge is usually wrong
05:11:09 <augur> and its done mostly to justify other things
05:11:14 <elliott> common knowledge is usually wrong
05:11:16 <augur> pikhq: the first amendment doesnt apply to everything
05:11:31 * elliott tried to google "folk physics" -- entered "folk psychics" -- far more awesome
05:11:52 <augur> I SEE IN YOUR FUTURE... A BAND!
05:11:58 <pikhq> augur: Ah, right, it doesn't apply to judges being "it doesn't apply because FUCK YOU".
05:12:03 <pikhq> Even though the text does.
05:12:26 <augur> well im not having sex with you, either way
05:12:32 <elliott> wait was this just a really obfuscatory way for augur to be able to say <augur> if i asked elliott what his cock looked like i'd be breaking the law
05:12:34 <augur> so dont you think of trying!
05:12:35 <elliott> without it technically being illegal
05:12:45 <elliott> this raises the question, is it legal to talk about talking about sex with me
05:12:51 <augur> i imagine your cock looks like a cock
05:13:00 <elliott> http://www.petsintouch.com/nwposter/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/rooster-big1.jpg
05:13:16 <augur> and look at that red head...
05:13:27 <elliott> Plus the feathers! And claws!
05:13:34 <augur> thats how i like my cocks
05:13:34 <pikhq> Keep fuckin' that chicken.
05:13:40 <augur> feathered and clawed
05:13:42 <elliott> I swear that chicken only has one leg
05:13:44 <elliott> http://www.petsintouch.com/nwposter/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/rooster-big1.jpg
05:14:02 <Gregor> Due to the nature of this conversation, I keep reading that domain as penistouch.com
05:14:03 <augur> your eyes are broken
05:14:06 <augur> there are clearly two legs
05:14:20 <elliott> Augur and the Penistouch, a novel for young children
05:14:35 <augur> as written by Elliott Hird
05:15:05 <augur> i wouldnt fap to something named that
05:15:09 <augur> thats a stupid title
05:15:43 <zzo38> I have figured out how much memory is used in total by Plain TeXnicard. It uses 0x12C6 bytes (0x22 objects).
05:16:09 <zzo38> But of course it is not finish yet, so probably later it will be longer and use more memory.
05:16:24 <augur> elliott: be sure to submit it to nifty.org when you're done with it!
05:16:27 <elliott> augur: Augur and the Fapulatory Wonderganza!
05:16:52 <zzo38> Do you think it is bloated?
05:17:30 <elliott> I'm going to start Enhanced TeXnicard to remove the bloat.
05:18:31 <pikhq> Gregor: Would you prefer http://www.penisland.com/?
05:18:50 <Gregor> augur: http://eu.nifty.org/nifty/gay/highschool/my-sleepover/my-sleepover-2 "When I was 13 I gave my first blowjob and had my first gay anal sex. It was with a boy called Elliott." // elliott's secrets revealed by Google's site: feature X-P
05:19:22 <augur> didnt we already guess this?
05:20:13 <elliott> Gregor: From this we can conclude that my penis was at least 7 inches long as of two years ago. Now I just need to figure out a way to claim that the story proves it has exponential growth.
05:20:24 <elliott> I AM DETERMINED TO USE THIS TO MY ADVANTAGE
05:20:37 <Gregor> I didn't read past the first paragraph, didn't mean to actually make any positive statements >_>
05:20:52 <Gregor> I mean, 7in at 13 ... that's gotta equate to like 11in by adulthood <_<
05:21:54 <pikhq> Gregor: Definite qualifications for going into porn.
05:21:57 <elliott> I am not going to do _anything_ to dispel this rumour.
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05:23:04 <augur> can i just point out that elliott has entered that period his life when he actually starts caring about sex?
05:23:15 <augur> as opposed to two eyars ago, where he only cared about programming languages
05:23:16 <zzo38> elliott: You can do that if you want to, but I think it is not bloated. I think even primitive TeX uses more than 4K of memory.
05:23:26 <elliott> augur: Psht, programming languages are clearly superior.
05:23:29 <augur> its so cute. we get to see him become a real woman <3
05:23:43 <elliott> `addquote <augur> its so cute. we get to see him become a real woman <3
05:23:47 <pikhq> elliott: You'll note that we are *here*, not sleeping with women.
05:23:50 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:23:52 <elliott> I don't really think I've changed much in two years apart from becoming less stupid :P
05:23:57 <elliott> pikhq: Which is *obviously* because we made that choice!
05:24:01 <Gregor> pikhq: (Or men, as the case may be :P )
05:24:11 <elliott> We're all either straight men or lesbians here.
05:24:21 <elliott> So augur is clearly a lesbian.
05:24:36 <augur> im a big fat lesbian
05:24:41 <pikhq> elliott: Nah, those of us interested in men multitask.
05:24:58 <pikhq> That came out slightly differently than intended.
05:25:11 <HackEgo> 276) <augur> its so cute. we get to see him become a real woman <3
05:25:15 <elliott> augur: i thought you said you weren't into girls
05:25:23 <Gregor> HackEgo: IT'S OK WE STILL LOVE YOU
05:25:35 <elliott> augur: but you're a lesbian!
05:25:40 <augur> except those girls that might as well be boys
05:25:48 <Gregor> At this exact moment, acetoline is thinking "What the hell kind of channel did I just join"
05:25:54 <elliott> acetoline: Here, we are GAY.
05:25:59 <elliott> Gregor: They've been in here before :P
05:26:04 <elliott> Although not said anything afaik.
05:26:15 <augur> acetoline is the fbi agent watching this channel
05:26:25 <augur> usually he just sniffs packets
05:26:36 <elliott> And cocaine. But mostly packets.
05:26:38 <pikhq> And doesn't notice that we save him effort with the logs.
05:26:41 <acetoline> elliott, wtf you mean none of you remember me?
05:26:56 <elliott> acetoline: OH NO I remember ... good ol'... acetoline... who are you
05:26:57 <pikhq> acetoline: Did you use a different nickname previously?
05:27:16 <Gregor> acetoline: According to my logs, that's the first line you've ever SAID in here :P
05:27:35 <zzo38> Primitive TeX has 322 multiletter control sequences and 1330 strings. The format file generated when "\dump" is given at the "**" prompt for INITEX, is 119694 bytes long.
05:27:45 <Sgeo> I have my "Three Worlds Collide" song stuck in my head
05:27:48 <acetoline> I might have changed my nick; the last time I talked in here was several months ago, I really don't remember
05:27:53 <Sgeo> Yes, I have a song for Three Worlds Collide
05:28:13 <acetoline> I don't remember my nick then, I mean
05:28:25 <augur> http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/01/110119-yellowstone-park-supervolcano-eruption-magma-science/
05:28:28 <zzo38> acetoline: I do not remember either.
05:28:29 <augur> yellowstone is going to erupe
05:28:32 <pikhq> I have "omoitè ha okusennmann" stuck in my head. (思いでは億千万 if you want to Google)
05:28:41 <elliott> yellowstone is just a big pizza
05:28:43 <acetoline> do you guys remember the regex replacement language?
05:28:54 <elliott> acetoline: there are fifty of those i think ... well the dfa thing
05:29:14 <quintopia> is the yellowstone supervolcano actually /about to erupt/
05:29:20 <quintopia> i thought we had a few more decades
05:29:44 <acetoline> It was mode-based, and it was blazing fast
05:29:44 <augur> actually im kinda drunk so
05:29:47 <quintopia> i say we start a massive geothermal energy project there
05:29:52 <augur> bulging is difficult
05:30:25 <augur> heat in yellowstone
05:30:50 <elliott> no pretty sure quintopia means your bulging
05:30:51 <augur> elliott: what do you look like, now that you've begun to become a "man"
05:30:59 <elliott> augur: like a girl still xD
05:31:16 <augur> well im not asking to see your secret vagina
05:31:23 <elliott> but i don't have one, that's how secret it is
05:31:26 <pikhq> Only the public one.
05:31:31 <elliott> it's being withheld from my OWN EYES
05:31:53 <elliott> maybe i'll try chopping things off to see if they're real, brb
05:31:57 <augur> last i saw of you, you looked lik a young david deutsch
05:32:06 <elliott> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
05:32:08 <elliott> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
05:32:22 <augur> cut your fingernail too close to the nail bed, huh
05:32:26 <augur> hate it when that happens :(
05:32:43 <elliott> i'm currently missing an arm and an anus
05:33:12 <elliott> augur is into girls only if they lack anuses
05:33:28 <augur> both arms and anuses are important to me
05:33:51 <elliott> shake hands -> anal sex, what more do you need
05:33:56 * Sgeo doesn't particularly mind if a girl's eye is near useless
05:34:08 <augur> not eyes, mind you
05:34:18 <augur> elliott: who shakes hands
05:34:45 <elliott> augur: isn't this discussion illegal
05:34:45 <quintopia> venus demilo is supposed to be quite beautiful
05:35:01 <elliott> Venus Demilo sounds like a pornstar
05:35:11 <pikhq> augur: How does the law work with a cross-jurisdiction conversation, anyways?
05:35:17 <quintopia> an armless anusless headless pornstar
05:35:26 <augur> pikhq: i think its determined based on where you are
05:35:26 <elliott> i'm just a bloody stump of a finger
05:35:30 <augur> or where the "victim" is
05:35:33 <elliott> AND AM GOING NOW FUCK OFF GOODBYE
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05:35:45 <augur> whichever jurisdiction wins
05:35:49 <pikhq> Hmm. Clearly we should all head out to the Vatican.
05:35:53 <pikhq> Age of consent is 12. Fuck yeah.
05:36:02 <augur> practical age of consent is 6
05:36:21 <augur> seriously tho, who the fuck would want to fuck a prepubescent kid?
05:36:38 <augur> post-pubescent, fine, but pre?
05:36:44 <augur> well yes thats not the point tho
05:40:43 <pikhq> NASA has a solar sail in space right now. FUCK YEAH.
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06:48:47 <zzo38> Is the reason why you get error messages saying "The operation completed successfully" because of the command to receive error message text not done immediately after the operation with error?
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07:41:19 <Sgeo> zzo38, exit(normal).
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10:14:47 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.2playerproductions.com/images/stories/jeb.png
10:15:08 <Phantom_Hoover> "How on earth did he confuse = for == and not notice for 3 years?"
10:54:29 <oklopol> in my dream, i actually saw the solution to the collatz problem!
10:54:40 <oklopol> prolly shouldn't be that hard to reproduce it
10:56:35 <oklopol> the solution was not written in traditional math notation tho, there was this black board that had like a 20x30 grid of holes, and then the girl who solved the prob put red, green and blue pearls in the wholes and drew a racetrack
10:58:08 <oklopol> she didn't quite have time to explain what the interpretation was before the killing started, i don't remember what happened, all i remember is the fear of death
11:08:05 <Vorpal> Swedish open source spell checking software generally sucks more or less badly. I wonder why.
11:09:00 <Vorpal> For example, firefox's spell checker suggested that "tvåkomplement" (two-complement) should be "tvålkomplement" (soap complement). The latter I have no idea what the fuck it would be.
11:09:14 <Vorpal> oklopol, Phantom_Hoover ^
11:10:48 <Vorpal> I mean, either it doesn't handle concatenating words properly, in which case "tvålkomplement" must actually be in the word list(!). Or it does handle concatenation. In which case it should handle "tvåkomplement" just fine.
11:14:21 <fizzie> Don't worry, Finnish free spell checkers suck even more; esp. wordlist-based approaches that can't do the inflections.
11:15:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, but seriously, "soap complement". That's ridiculous!
11:17:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, at least Swedish have rather few suffix variants for a given word. 4 I think. Or actually 8 I guess but the equiv of the 's (as in foo's) in English is pretty much the same always iirc.
11:20:28 <fizzie> Firefox's Finnish spell-checker actually seems to do better than I expected, based on five or so test-words.
11:24:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, the one in firefox is vastly better than the one in open office for Swedish
11:32:30 <oklopol> Vorpal: tv isn't a noun so it can't be the first part of a compound?
11:32:47 <oklopol> not really even a question, i'm sure that's the reason
11:32:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, know any modern general purpose language with built in support for fixed point values?
11:33:01 <fizzie> oklopol: I would think they can compoundize things like "kaksikäsinen"?
11:33:10 <Vorpal> oklopol, uh. tvåkomplement is the Swedish word.
11:33:22 <Vorpal> I mean, as far as I know it is valid
11:33:25 <oklopol> Vorpal: the spell-checker isn't a native spearker
11:33:42 <Vorpal> oklopol, well no, it is a stupid program :P
11:33:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, what does that word mean?
11:33:58 <oklopol> Vorpal: so what about two-handed
11:34:22 <oklopol> Vorpal: it means "he who possesses a pair of hands"
11:34:39 <Vorpal> oklopol, I would say it should be tvåhändig.
11:34:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, well that is better, though that means two-armed
11:34:57 <oklopol> i'm not asking what it is, i'm asking if the program understands it
11:35:21 <oklopol> yeah the finnish version can mean either really
11:35:35 <oklopol> although perhaps only the arms one makes sense
11:35:49 <oklopol> i didn't actually even consider it might mean something
11:35:51 <Vorpal> oklopol, yes it knows "tvåarmad" at least.
11:36:11 <oklopol> no, surely it said "you must mean" tvlarmad
11:36:23 <oklopol> so tvarmad might be an exception
11:36:33 <Vorpal> it *did* suggest tvålhändig though :P
11:36:33 <oklopol> tvlhndig must be in everyday use anyway
11:37:03 <oklopol> tv can't be the first part of a compound, tvarmad is in the word list
11:37:07 <Vorpal> oklopol, the problem here is that "händig" also means something else
11:37:22 <fizzie> Dictionary here does list "tvåhändig" and "tvåhänt" both; you could try the latter.
11:37:37 <fizzie> Or tvådimensionell, for that matter.
11:37:51 <fizzie> They're different sort of words than komplement, though.
11:38:00 <Vorpal> tvåhänt sounds better yes. But it doesn't handle that either.
11:38:17 <Vorpal> tvådimensionell it *does* handle
11:38:28 <Vorpal> what a weird spell checker
11:38:41 <Vorpal> it is like it handle compounds only in some cases
11:38:52 <fizzie> Not all compounds are valid, after all.
11:39:04 <fizzie> Must be something word-class-related.
11:39:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, well. I have always preferred a descriptive grammar to a normative one.
11:39:34 <Vorpal> And everyone would find words like that just fine. :P
11:39:38 <fizzie> I couldn't (immediately) figure out any unarguably correct Finnish words it didn't handle. I mean, it doesn't recognize "kissaisa" which I unambiguously parse as "catlike", but it does recognize "kissamainen" which is more "regular".
11:40:07 <oklopol> i parse kissaisa as a internetified kissais
11:40:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, a native speaker of Swedish just hears if a compound sounds valid or not. To me "tvåhänding" does sound slightly awkward but still valid.
11:41:10 <Vorpal> tvåhänding sounds like some creature from a book.
11:41:31 <Vorpal> oklopol, "very catlike"?
11:41:50 <oklopol> "a -> " does not have any sort of function in finland
11:41:51 <Vorpal> you said *internet*ified
11:41:58 <Vorpal> how did I misread that
11:42:16 <fizzie> And it doesn't recognize the always-touted "longest word" epäjärjestelmällisyydellistyttymättömyydellänsäkään, but that's just ridiculous anyway. It does do shorter variants, like "epäjärjestelmällisyydelleenkin".
11:42:33 <fizzie> And it does do the also-often-mentioned long-compound kolmivaihekilowattituntimittari.
11:43:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, I made a 73 letter word in Swedish. This was many years ago. Word 98 for Mac OS (classical mac os) thought it was valid btw. I doubt open office would
11:43:21 <oklopol> "epäjärjestelmällisyydellistyttymättömyydellänsäkään" makes perfect sense at least, i've heard variants that aren't really finnish at all
11:43:42 <Vorpal> though word failed miserably at hyphenating it!
11:44:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, is "epäjärjestelmällisyydellistyttymättömyydellänsäkään" a compound word?
11:44:12 <oklopol> compounds are unbounded in finnish, you can just concatenate any nouns as long as you like
11:44:40 <Vorpal> <oklopol> compounds are unbounded in finnish, you can just concatenate any nouns as long as you like <-- same in Swedish. Though after a while you run out of imagination.
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11:45:10 <fizzie> järjestelmällinen → organized, systematic.
11:45:18 <fizzie> Then it's just suffixes, and a negation prefix.
11:45:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, clearly a soap-complement would be what you get when you replace everything that isn't soap with soap and replace all the soap with something else.
11:46:04 <oklopol> that means "even with his not having been made become full of unsystematicness"
11:46:12 <fizzie> I don't really like the whole "järjestelmällisyydellisyys" bit it has in there.
11:46:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but soap is not a binary thing.
11:46:44 <oklopol> järjestelmällisyydellisyys iterates a syffix twice, yeah
11:47:02 <oklopol> iloisuudellisuudellisuudellisuudellisuudellisuudellisuud
11:47:31 <oklopol> so maybe unsystematicnessness
11:47:44 <fizzie> Yeah, it's a bit like repeating -ness in English.
11:48:11 <fizzie> And kolmivaihekilowattituntimittari means "three-phase kWh-meter", but that's very straight-forward.
11:48:11 <oklopol> well repeating ness is a perfectly valid way to construct arbitrary length words in english
11:48:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, you mean like foonessness?
11:48:24 <oklopol> happinessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessness
11:48:33 <oklopol> is the longest english word that's not a compound
11:48:42 <oklopol> but i think i know a longer one
11:49:00 <Vorpal> <oklopol> well repeating ness is a perfectly valid way to construct arbitrary length words in english <-- actually I can't work out what it means after the third iteration or so
11:49:26 <oklopol> erm, the state of being the state of being the state of being happy?
11:49:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah in Swedish that would be "trefas kilowattmätare" I think
11:49:30 <oklopol> are you stupid or something
11:49:55 <Vorpal> oklopol, hm I meant actually sensible meaning
11:49:59 <fizzie> Vorpal: Doesn't that just measure kW's, not kWh's?
11:50:13 <Vorpal> "trefas kilowatttimmemätare"
11:50:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think one t should be stripped there
11:51:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, but I'm not sure.
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11:51:53 <oklopol> well someone could be experiencing happiness in your backyard, so you tell them happiness is not allowed in there, and then he says "but the happinessness of my happiness is so overwhelming i can't control it!" and then you say "the happinessnessness your happiness' happinessness is feeling is an illusion" and shoot the guy
11:53:21 <fizzie> Here in Finland we'd put a dash in, probably. Though usually there's two matching vowels at the inner border of a compound, not consonants.
11:53:41 <oklopol> that wasn't really correct use of -ness :D
11:53:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah I would probably rewrite it in some way in Swedish
11:53:48 <oklopol> but let's not get into that
11:53:52 <Vorpal> oklopol, yeah I was wondering if happinessness really mean "happiness of happiness"
11:54:30 <oklopol> one thing it could mean is "the fact that someone is the happiness of something"
11:54:41 <Vorpal> oklopol, the way you used it, it seems like you reified happiness
11:55:07 <oklopol> well you pretty much have to for that meaning of -ness, don't you
11:55:21 <Vorpal> oklopol, yeah and I'm wondering if that is actually valid.
11:55:36 <oklopol> but you need to get some tangible grip of the happiness that someone is feeling
11:55:52 <oklopol> so that you can start talking about the happinessness of that particular happiness...
11:56:07 <Vorpal> oklopol, quite. So does adding extra -ness make any sense at all then?
11:56:16 <oklopol> someone might argue that there is only one happiness, but then talking about its happinessness surely is even more important.
11:56:32 <oklopol> it doesn't have any uses ofc
11:56:49 <oklopol> i mean in your everyday life
11:57:02 <oklopol> but it would be crazy to say it's not valid
11:58:46 <Vorpal> oklopol, hm what we need is a formal definition of what -ness means exactly. Because I don't read happinessness as happiness of happiness. But rather as the state of being in the state of being happy.
11:59:26 <oklopol> it's not the happiness of happiness, it's the property defining happiness.
11:59:49 <oklopol> you are feeling happiness if the thing you are feeling has the property of happinessness.
12:00:25 <oklopol> just like you are feeling cat if the thing you are feeling has the property of catness!
12:01:04 <Vorpal> oklopol, but what about non-emotions where you add -ness?
12:01:22 <Vorpal> oklopol, tidiness for example
12:02:06 <oklopol> well you know, when your room is tiny, it has the property of tidiness, in which case the tidiness characterizing your room shows clear signs of tidinessness.
12:02:12 <Vorpal> oklopol, also isn't -ness only for adjective -> noun? That is another reason why it wouldn't work for cat or for multiple ones
12:02:21 <Vorpal> oklopol, "tidy" not "tiny"
12:02:45 <oklopol> because if it didn't have the property of tidinessness, it wouldn't be tidiness in the first place, and thus wouldn't have been a property of the room in the first place
12:02:55 <oklopol> typo, d and n are so close
12:03:06 <Vorpal> oklopol, what keyboard layout?
12:03:40 <Vorpal> oklopol, but cat is a noun, and from what I can find -ness can only be used on adjectives. And that turns them into nouns.
12:03:50 <Vorpal> but okay, could be you are right
12:04:14 <oklopol> catness first turns cat into an adjective, then before anyone notices, it goes one level higher so that it looks less suspicious
12:06:39 <Vorpal> oklopol, hm oklopolnessness
12:07:04 <Vorpal> or would it be oklonessness
12:09:04 <fizzie> I think for catness a more attitudinous word is "cattitude", for obvious reasons.
12:09:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, "attitudinous"?
12:10:38 <fizzie> It's like "fabulous", but with more 'tude.
12:21:13 <Ilari> Wonder what the heck is going on with APNIC... Someone says the depletion date is known (but confidential), someone else says APNIC just hasn't requested (and if they will, it will be processed in normal time...)
12:22:35 <Sgeo> It's the end of the world as we know it
12:22:45 <Sgeo> It's the end of the world as we know it
12:22:53 <Sgeo> It's the end of the world as we know it
12:22:57 <Sgeo> and I feel fine
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12:25:17 <Ilari> Or they send the request on schedule (not on allocation threshold...)
12:27:00 <Ilari> They are way below when they should have allocated...
12:28:24 <Ilari> APNIC may well know how long IANA is going to take, so by sending request at suitable moment, one has pretty good idea about the depletion day....
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13:10:25 <Ilari> What's up with all the news articles about IPv4 depletion coming out lately?
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13:18:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Apparently 60% of AOL's income comes from idiots who haven't realised they're paying for a service they don't use.
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13:37:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, which service is that?
13:37:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so... what do they use AOL for then?
13:37:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and they use another ISP for actual browsing?
13:38:19 <Ilari> BTW: Any progress on getting esolangs.org to have an AAAA record? :-)
13:38:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Based on the stuff I've read it's mainly technologically-illiterate old people, so "idiots" is a bit harsh.
13:38:41 <Vorpal> Ilari, I doubt the server has IPv6.
13:38:55 <Vorpal> Ilari, as in, it doesn't have any inet6 ip apart from ::1 and a link-local one
13:42:26 <Ilari> Yeah, if the server doesn't have AAAA record, it probably doesn't have IPv6 address anyway...
13:49:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, I have concluded that the clicking mechanism you used in the pen projectiles is unworkable for pen rockets.
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13:59:57 <Phantom_Hoover> I get this sense that my attention span is plummeting.
14:00:43 <oklofok> that usually happens as you get younger.
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14:30:35 <Phantom_Hoover> oklofok, oh, right, I'm just going through time backwards.
14:31:51 <Phantom_Hoover> For a second there I was worried something was seriously wrong.
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15:04:46 * oerjan swats Phantom_Hoover in all four dimensions simultaneously -----###
15:08:10 <oerjan> suo!suaw!p ay+ u! punoje h11njaje> sujn+ uefjao *
15:08:28 <oerjan> some loss of information may be expected
15:14:31 <oerjan> 00:11:29 <elliott> 14:22:35 <oerjan> i used it in Malbolge Unshackled to create an infinite lazy datastructure containing IORefs. afaik that usage is perfectly safe.
15:14:34 <oerjan> 00:11:33 <elliott> hmm, I wonder how
15:16:28 * oerjan visits his own homepage directly, notices Unshackled isn't mentioned there
15:17:02 <oerjan> http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/Unshackled.hs
15:18:14 <Vorpal> <oerjan> suo!suaw!p ay+ u! punoje h11njaje> sujn+ uefjao * <-- really? that's interesting!
15:18:35 <Vorpal> oerjan, do you have a proof of that though?
15:19:01 <oerjan> well you may notice that i am no longer going backwards in time
15:19:28 <oerjan> <elliott> !haskell mdo iorefs <- (:) (unsafeInterleaveIO newIORef) iorefs
15:19:41 <Vorpal> oerjan, oh. I blame it on the loss of information then. It ended up as "The Riemann hypothesis is true"
15:20:41 <Vorpal> oerjan, unless it has been shown that you not going backwards in time implies that it is true.
15:21:57 <oerjan> elliott: i think you'd want something like iorefs val = let iorefs' = liftM2 (:) (newIORef val) (unsafeInterleaveIO iorefs') in iorefs'
15:23:21 <oerjan> i've got nothing on the RH, although i could direct you to a crank commenting on godel's letter who does
15:24:28 <oerjan> elliott: oh you're just trying to make a cyclic mutable list
15:25:06 <Vorpal> oerjan, btw I'm downloading system upgrades. Just after I read your line about the crank I checked back at the terminal window and saw that it was downloading cracklib, which I first read as cranklib XD
15:25:34 <Vorpal> (in case you don't know, cracklib is the thing used to say "no, you can't use that as password, it is too weak)
15:25:44 <oerjan> in which case, mdo iorefs <- (: iorefs) `fmap` newIORef whatever should work, i don't think you even need unsafeInterleaveIO for that
15:26:18 <oerjan> Vorpal: SPOOOOKY SYCHRONICITY
15:26:55 <oerjan> although it _could_ be
15:27:41 <Vorpal> oerjan, don't you need more than two events for that to happen. Like if I would check into #nethack and someone would say "kraken" and then I would misread that or whatever.
15:27:46 <oerjan> elliott: um it needs a ; return iorefs at the end too
15:27:51 <Vorpal> (not that that happened atm)
15:28:13 <oerjan> Vorpal: no, two events is enough
15:28:32 <nooga> a friend of mine wrote a game in javascript
15:28:34 <nooga> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvKZPvJ5dBY
15:28:51 <nooga> using his own 3d engine
15:30:10 <Vorpal> nooga, was the 3D engine written in js too?
15:30:46 <nooga> http://redshootinghood.info/
15:30:46 <Vorpal> nooga, meh doesn't count unless you write a JITing js implementation in js to host it :P
15:32:12 <oerjan> :t do rec {x <- return (True:x)}; return x
15:32:13 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *). (MonadFix m) => m [Bool]
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15:38:34 * oerjan swats FireyFly -----###
15:46:05 <Vorpal> oh just because of his nick?
15:46:49 -!- Adiemus has joined.
15:48:50 <oklofok> why? well because of the why of course.
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15:51:50 <oerjan> although them darn flies seem to be getting tougher
15:55:01 <Vorpal> <oerjan> MVSCA SWAPPENDA EST <-- hm. Is it a transposition crypo?
15:55:27 <Vorpal> oerjan, oh. What is it supposed to mean
15:55:30 <oerjan> well only the SWAPP- part is fake
15:55:53 <oerjan> The fly should be swapped
15:55:58 <Vorpal> oerjan, wait, does latin have v or something as a vowel or how do you pronounce "MVSCA"?
15:56:21 <oerjan> in classical latin, U and V were still one letter. same with I and J.
15:56:32 <oerjan> and W didn't exist of course
16:03:04 <quintopia> you even translated it correctly...still not what you meant
16:03:14 <quintopia> also, if MVSCA is fly, what is mouse?
16:04:14 <Vorpal> quintopia, what does a fly have to do with a mouse?
16:04:40 <oerjan> Vorpal: the latin words look slightly similar
16:05:07 <oerjan> "The best known mouse species is the common house mouse (Mus musculus)."
16:05:41 <oerjan> the musculus part being an adjective only used in the scientific nomenclature, not in actual day-to-day latin
16:06:53 <quintopia> ah, but the modern term "muscle" comes from that adjective form, so i expect that they did use it in conversation to mean "mouse-like"
16:07:31 <oerjan> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mus#Latin
16:07:45 <Vorpal> also en:mouse = sv:mus
16:08:08 <oerjan> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/musculus, see etymology
16:08:40 <Vorpal> oerjan, I haven't checked yet but I expect something like "because the mouse back then were body builders"
16:09:14 <oerjan> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BC%E1%BF%A6%CF%82#Ancient_Greek it looks like the greek had some trouble giving this word just one meaning :D
16:09:45 <oerjan> Vorpal: the muscle meaning is borrowed from the greek, where the word has four different unrelated meanings
16:10:08 <oerjan> three of which sound similar in english, btw
16:10:36 <quintopia> the reason i heard was that when one flexed the bicep, it looked like a little mouse currying around underneath the skin
16:10:37 <oerjan> (well the last one is from the same greek/latin, so may not count)
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16:11:17 <oerjan> quintopia: plausible, but with it being from ancient greek it's not exactly easy to confirm...
16:11:41 <oerjan> the greek were big on fake etymologies iirc, they thought hero and eros were related...
16:12:17 <oerjan> (hero=heros in greek, so just one letter difference, and one that greek doesn't actually write to boot)
16:12:34 <oerjan> *didn't actually write
16:13:52 <oerjan> quintopia: i think the singular is still biceps, btw
16:14:11 <quintopia> if you want to be all latinate about it, yes
16:14:23 <quintopia> but bicep is common usage in english
16:15:28 <oerjan> what would you know. although it's listed as nonstandard.
16:16:09 <quintopia> but so common that i've never heard biceps used as a singular noun in my life
16:18:28 <oklofok> well maybe you only hang out with stupids
16:18:33 <oklofok> have you thought about that
16:19:53 <Vorpal> quintopia, isn't it "bicepses" or something in plural?
16:20:19 <Vorpal> oerjan, I meant in English
16:20:29 <Vorpal> oerjan, in Swedish it is same in singular and plural at least
16:20:34 <quintopia> oklofok: i would not be surprised if the entirety of the american population that can be commonly found on the weight room floor fell into that category
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16:21:26 <oerjan> ...someone probably didn't fit in this channel
16:21:38 <oklofok> do you live on the weight room floor, quin?
16:22:32 <quintopia> oklofok: far from it. it's just that people don't talk about biceps much in other places
16:22:34 <oklofok> yeah esolangs can be too much for some
16:23:32 <oklofok> quintopia: oh right, i didn't actually realize that the word meant... even though i did look up the finnish term to check "<Vorpal> oerjan, in Swedish it is same in singular and plural at least"
16:24:28 <oklofok> i thought you met all your friends in the weight room, which sounded interesting
16:26:06 <quintopia> go to the gym just to make friends
16:26:10 <quintopia> see what kind of people i can find
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17:12:51 <fizzie> Based on the name they must be a Finnish thing.
17:13:14 -!- elliott has joined.
17:13:52 <Gregor> <Gregor> XML was a great choice for SVG. I usually write my SVGs by hand in a text editor, so it was nice to have a format that's human-readable.
17:13:53 <Gregor> <Sorella> Though, it shouldn't be too much of a problem in most cases.
17:13:53 <Gregor> <yorick> Gregor: like YAML or JSON
17:13:53 <Gregor> <Gregor> yorick, sadly, does not know The Way.
17:13:53 <Gregor> <Sorella> human-readable, maybe; human-editable, not even close.
17:13:54 <Gregor> <carlocci> you call reading a single line of xml "human readable"?
17:13:57 <Gregor> Trolling ##javascript for fun and profit.
17:16:40 <elliott> 11:02:07 <oklopol> i have great news btw
17:16:40 <elliott> 11:02:19 <oklopol> in my dream, i actually saw the solution to the collatz problem!
17:16:40 <elliott> 11:02:30 <oklopol> prolly shouldn't be that hard to reproduce it
17:16:41 <elliott> 11:04:25 <oklopol> the solution was not written in traditional math notation tho, there was this black board that had like a 20x30 grid of holes, and then the girl who solved the prob put red, green and blue pearls in the wholes and drew a racetrack
17:16:45 <elliott> 11:05:58 <oklopol> she didn't quite have time to explain what the interpretation was before the killing started, i don't remember what happened, all i remember is the fear of death
17:16:48 <elliott> I want to `addquote all of this.
17:17:13 <elliott> 10:22:56 <Phantom_Hoover> "How on earth did he confuse = for == and not notice for 3 years?"
17:17:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: wtf, minecraft is fairly close to being 3 years old...
17:18:11 <quintopia> i'm pretty sure i played the alpha that long ago. sounds right.
17:19:02 <quintopia> it ran fast, but it didn't have much in the way of crafting or user interface...it was just pick up blocks here and put them there...
17:20:33 <elliott> quintopia: you don't mean alpha
17:20:40 <elliott> anyway it was mid/late 2009
17:20:56 <quintopia> classic? is that what they call it now?
17:21:20 <elliott> quintopia: It was never called alpha :P
17:22:32 <elliott> quintopia: not as much as Alpha did
17:22:42 <elliott> and Alpha wasn't as alpha as the first Beta :D
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17:23:54 <nddrylliog> hi everyone. bored. any cool esoteric language to implement? I'm kinda lost in esolang's language list.
17:24:14 <elliott> nddrylliog: Underload is pretty easy and fun to implement
17:25:55 <elliott> 15:25:00 <oerjan> http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/Unshackled.hs
17:26:11 <zzo38> Of course, Underload have already been implemented many times. You can make another implementation if you want to, but other way is to make implementation of one which is not currently implemented.
17:26:16 <nddrylliog> quintopia: And then I'll write a Brainhype interpreter in Scheme-omega, right?
17:26:27 <quintopia> nddrylliog: if you have time, sure
17:26:39 <elliott> nddrylliog: If you implement Scheme-1 then you can run my error-compliant Brainfuck/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brainfuck/index.php implementation: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainfuck/w/index.php%3Ftitle%3DTalk:Brainfuck/index.php
17:26:52 <zzo38> (Some are not implementable though)
17:27:42 <nddrylliog> zzo38: yeah, that the problem. Most reasonable/not-a-clone-of-brainfuck languages seem to have been implemented already
17:28:10 <elliott> nddrylliog: You could implement Magenta.
17:28:25 <elliott> Note that Magenta is not only hideously complicated, but it has a curse on it, and implementing it is therefore incredibly unwise :P
17:28:34 <zzo38> nddrylliog: There are many others (see the Unimplemented category, many of those are implementable but have not been implemented yet)
17:28:37 <nddrylliog> elliott: seems like the spec's offline
17:28:41 <elliott> http://www.reocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Station/2266/tarpit/magenta.html
17:29:02 <zzo38> I have a backup copy of the Magenta spec too.
17:29:46 <elliott> nddrylliog: Example Magenta function:
17:29:46 <elliott> function feedthebear (enum[bear] whichone, enum[food] bearfood)
17:29:47 <elliott> bool fed;//if all goes well...
17:29:50 <elliott> throw (whichone[eat](armp));//armp is a global indicating
17:30:26 <nddrylliog> it basically takes the worst in every language ever, right?
17:30:27 <elliott> Amusingly, I am fairly sure that, despite its incredibly redundancy, they still don't manage to have a loop construct as complicated as Common Lisp's LOOP.
17:30:37 <elliott> nddrylliog: It takes everything from every language ever.
17:31:00 <elliott> task feed_fish(food Fishfood, fish Goldfish) [yp=lastproc+1, \ zp=MINPRIORITY] begin
17:31:02 <elliott> feed(It, Goldfish);//It=Fishfood here
17:31:11 <elliott> clean(It);//It=toilet here
17:31:25 <nddrylliog> why the gratuitious backslash? (before zp=MINPRIORITY)
17:31:47 <nddrylliog> huh are comments somehow meaningful/interpreted sometimes?
17:32:09 <nddrylliog> well silly questions, I should just go and read the spec
17:32:23 <nddrylliog> I'll finish implementing Underload first
17:33:18 <elliott> nddrylliog: the backslash probably means something :D and no, I don't think so
17:33:35 <elliott> I wrote an Underload compiler once, which was good fun, but it was slower than a clever interpreter (that optimised integers).
17:34:06 <elliott> 15:29:55 <oerjan> elliott: i think you'd want something like iorefs val = let iorefs' = liftM2 (:) (newIORef val) (unsafeInterleaveIO iorefs') in iorefs'
17:34:18 <elliott> oerjan: isn't it technically valid for that to evaluate to an infinite list of the /same/ IORef?
17:34:34 <elliott> nddrylliog: have you been in here before btw? haven't seen your name before :)
17:35:10 <elliott> oerjan: I'm trying to get an infinite list of /different/ IORefs
17:35:43 <nddrylliog> elliott: Nope, never joined esoteric. I'm the author of http://ooc-lang.org/ though.
17:36:04 <elliott> nddrylliog: Oh, that language I've been ignoring :-)
17:36:08 <nddrylliog> but now non-esoteric languages sound a bit boring. I needed more nonsense in my life
17:36:39 <elliott> Actually ooc has the distinction of being the one language that Sgeo hasn't managed to decide is the best ever before getting bored of it.
17:36:51 <elliott> I was going to put "dubious" before "distinction" but I'm not so sure.
17:37:15 <elliott> But bah, darned kids and your mutability and yer side effects and yer objects.
17:37:25 <nddrylliog> yeah. I've repented of my sinful ways since.
17:37:38 <elliott> very well, we won't sacrifice you _immediately_
17:38:01 <nddrylliog> awesome. I'm just about done fucking over every relationship - one left to go. How does monday sound?
17:38:59 <nddrylliog> if I'm not into ethyl coma by then, sure
17:39:13 <nddrylliog> well, "into" is probably a poor choice of words.
17:39:33 <zzo38> nddrylliog: What are you going to use to write the implementation?
17:40:09 <nddrylliog> zzo38: Why ooc, of course. I'm almost done redefining basic constructs on top of basic types.
17:40:26 <nddrylliog> zzo38: Along the years, ooc has grown in some sort of INTERCAL-2. Or what Java would be if they listened to users.
17:40:33 <nddrylliog> so many features to abuse, it's really esoteric heaven
17:40:36 <elliott> nddrylliog: You probably want to just store everything as a string.
17:40:55 <elliott> ^ can be interpreted as "eval"
17:41:32 <zzo38> I have made implementation of Underload written in TeX.
17:42:36 <zzo38> Some things are easy like ! is just \endgroup
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17:45:40 <nddrylliog> wonderful, I already have 5 levels of indirection in just a few lines of code.
17:48:28 <nddrylliog> I'd extend Func but I'm not sure if rock supports that.
17:49:16 <nddrylliog> push(popAndThen(|| push(pop()))) // ain't that beautiful?
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17:51:38 <oklofok> in a few years elliott will be pasting this stuff, going all "lol nddrylliog u were so noob lol"
17:52:06 <elliott> nddrylliog: heh "I'd like to do this, but I dunno if my language can do that!"
17:52:11 <oklofok> and nddrylliog'll be like STFU FAGGOT IMA IGNORE UR ASS
17:52:54 <nddrylliog> but if you could see the things I'm throwing at it right now - it's a pretty fair fighter, if you ask me.
17:52:58 <oklofok> have you read sicp already, elliott
17:53:18 <oklofok> somehow i find that hard to believe
17:53:22 <oklofok> did you do all the exercises?
17:53:42 <nddrylliog> ooh I was gonna use match. but that's too high-level. Let's find another constricted way of doing it.
17:53:56 <oklofok> nddrylliog: sicp is a nice read
17:54:02 <quintopia> you guys think SICP is five times awesomer than CLRS?
17:54:03 <nddrylliog> maybe extending Char with a function taking a hashmap from strings to funcs.
17:54:30 <oklofok> abbreviations are useless, there's always some retard who asks what they mean
17:54:30 <fizzie> oklofok: It's that "Introduction to Algorithms" book.
17:54:54 <oklofok> i just skimmed that once and was all "lul i'm way above this stuff"
17:54:56 <fizzie> By Cormen, Leiserson, Rivest and Stein.
17:55:25 <fizzie> But the R in it is the same R as in RSA.
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17:55:56 <fizzie> The first edition was just CLR; second edition adds the S.
17:56:07 <fizzie> I've used their latex pseudocode thingie somewhere.
17:56:15 <quintopia> oklofok: no one is way above getting pseudocode for implementations of data structures. it's so much easier than trying to remember how to do them yourself
17:57:05 <elliott> oklofok doesn't use data structures!
17:57:10 <fizzie> Oh, they have a third edition out already.
17:57:17 <oklofok> quintopia: i'm way above programming
17:58:08 <oklofok> and i don't really do algorithm stuff either, aside from the occasional remark "which can clearly be done effectively"
17:58:35 <nddrylliog> are you always careful to have a small enough margin so that it can't contain the proof?
17:58:38 <quintopia> "and so it's reduced to a linear programming problem and we are done"
17:59:04 <oklofok> nddrylliog: i usually use latex, and make sure my hd is almost full
18:00:11 <quintopia> `addquote <nddrylliog> are you always careful to have a small enough margin so that it can't contain the proof? <oklofok> nddrylliog: i usually use latex, and make sure my hd is almost full
18:00:33 <HackEgo> 276) <nddrylliog> are you always careful to have a small enough margin so that it can't contain the proof? <oklofok> nddrylliog: i usually use latex, and make sure my hd is almost full
18:00:39 <HackEgo> 179) <oklopol> pigeons are very smart. all the known ways to show a language is not regular are based on pigeons.
18:00:41 <elliott> *Main> run $ parse "(:aSS):aSS"
18:00:46 <elliott> yet it's still a better impl than nddrylliog's!
18:00:48 <HackEgo> 6) <Quas_NaArt> His body should be given to science. <GKennethR> He's alive :P <GreenReaper> Even so.
18:00:55 <HackEgo> 27) IN EINEM ALTERNATIVEN UNIVERSUM (WO DIE NAZIS WON): <ehird> So kann ich nur schliessen, dass es falsch ist, oder die Welt ist vollig BONKERS. Gegrusset seist du der Fuhrer Hitler!
18:01:06 <elliott> don't scare the newbie with our insane quotes :D
18:01:45 <oklofok> but they are so much fun to spam on the channel
18:02:12 <oklofok> also, ...says the man trying to kill bots using recursive asses
18:03:15 <HackEgo> 234) <Phantom_Hoover> For instance, Jesus' Y chromosome was clearly GOD'S.
18:03:36 <HackEgo> 148) <oerjan> alise: mainly it's the fact it blows so hard i cannot avoid hitting the walls of the thing, which completely goes against my basic public toilet hygiene principles
18:07:09 <elliott> nddrylliog: http://sprunge.us/aRgY your move
18:07:38 <elliott> i suggest optimising church numerals like derlo does :D
18:08:01 <elliott> 99 bottles of beer on the wall, 99 bottles of beer.
18:08:01 <elliott> Take one down and pass it around, 88 bottles of beer on the wall.
18:08:01 <elliott> underload: That's not a program.
18:08:24 <nddrylliog> (c == this) ifTrue(yeah) ifTrue(noes) ifTrue(|| /* make up your mind */)
18:09:06 * elliott suspects forces of mild intoxication are at work :D
18:09:34 <elliott> so what do yeah and noes evaluate to, is that your language's innovation, nicer names for booleans
18:09:46 <elliott> because that's what i've been waiting for in a language
18:10:30 <elliott> isn't everything an object?!!?!?!?!
18:13:10 <elliott> i should read the rest of that synthesis paper
18:13:15 <nddrylliog> so, so far only one compiler segfault and twice generated invalid C code. Not bad, not bad
18:13:23 <Ilari> Aiming for Balmer peak but missing? :-)
18:13:31 <elliott> nddrylliog: you are getting me soooo hyped about your language
18:13:34 <nddrylliog> elliott: what, this quaject/OS/kernel/bizarre thing?
18:13:46 <elliott> nddrylliog: Synthesis is the quaject OS, yes.
18:13:52 <nddrylliog> so hyped > Sorry, did it look like I cared? :)
18:13:54 <elliott> Well, was, I doubt anyone has a machine that will run it any more.
18:14:09 <elliott> nddrylliog: oh i'm not being sarcastic ... your toolchain looks like it's rivalled only by D :-D
18:14:48 <nddrylliog> I have really really bad memories of.. the-language-that-shall-not-be-named.
18:14:58 <nddrylliog> but Walter's actually a pretty nice guy
18:15:06 <elliott> we have a few D victims here
18:15:21 <elliott> I don't think I ever /did/ get LDC compiled
18:15:40 <elliott> good thing the langauge sucks then :D
18:15:40 <nddrylliog> I went to chat with him after his talk at the ELC and he was like "hum, right - humans. How do they work again... oh, hi!"
18:16:09 <elliott> i'm fairly sure everyone in here is like that apart from oklofok
18:16:10 <Ilari> BTW, what is "PACHELBEL"?
18:16:11 <nddrylliog> oh, I'm using closures more than 4 levels deep - workaround time
18:16:28 <elliott> That would be a good drinking game, drink for every nested closure.
18:16:30 <elliott> Ilari: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Pachelbel
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18:17:16 <Ilari> I asked "what" not "who"... :-)
18:17:40 <oklofok> elliott wanna go drinking some time? i can buy you beer!
18:17:54 <HackEgo> 111) <songhead95> think of all the starving kids in china who don't have rotting sea life to eat
18:17:58 <elliott> don't remember if i addquoted that
18:18:08 <HackEgo> total 56 \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 53 Jan 22 18:27 1 \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 4096 Jan 22 18:27 babies \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 4096 Jan 22 18:27 bin \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 3 Jan 22 18:27 foo \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 4096 Jan 22 18:27 paste \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 11 Jan 22 18:27 quine \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 27598 Jan 22 18:27
18:18:20 <elliott> nddrylliog: OH WOW WE DIDN'T THINK OF THAT HURRRR
18:18:28 <elliott> It uses plash in an empty chroot :P
18:18:30 <nddrylliog> elliott: Actually, bash designers thought of that
18:18:34 <nddrylliog> elliott: so I wasn't too worried anyway
18:18:50 <elliott> !c printf("RAPID C PROTOTYPING\n");
18:19:07 <elliott> /bin/rm: it is dangerous to operate recursively on `/'
18:19:07 <elliott> /bin/rm: use --no-preserve-root to override this failsafe
18:19:10 <elliott> pretty sure that's a coreutils feature
18:19:33 <nddrylliog> but I think the zsh folks *did* some tampering with rm in an inane attempt to make it safer
18:19:46 <nddrylliog> bah, this might be the lack of liquor talking
18:20:00 <elliott> they probably did, zsh does like everything
18:20:32 <nddrylliog> they probably reimplemented emacs in zsh.
18:20:44 <nddrylliog> which is, like, the universe in a box.
18:21:03 <nddrylliog> talking of which, does the new Futurama season suck or does it not? My internet connection wants to know
18:21:23 <elliott> i've heard only good things about it
18:21:32 <elliott> but no first-hand experience
18:21:47 <elliott> <nddrylliog> btw where are you guys located?
18:21:56 <elliott> we have a dangerously high population of finns here though
18:23:02 <nddrylliog> so a nested-closure-drinking-session is an easy-jet flight away.
18:24:17 <nddrylliog> on an unrelated note, I still haven't made good use of my jonskeetfacts.com domain.
18:25:53 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: isn't it technically valid for that to evaluate to an infinite list of the /same/ IORef? <-- i cannot imagine why, it's no more shared than it would be for let x = newIORef val in liftM2 (:) x (liftM2 x (return []))
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18:26:52 <elliott> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/w/index.php?title=Silly_Emplosions&curid=2318&diff=20841&oldid=19921 <-- in which my definition of "witty" is found to clash with another's
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18:33:48 <oerjan> 19:01 oklofok> did you do all the exercises?
18:33:48 <oerjan> 19:01 elliott> ALL OF THEM
18:34:05 <oerjan> so it's not the kind of book that contains famous unsolved problems?
18:34:57 <oklofok> the exercises are not problem solving, they are about 1) understanding program structure 2) filling gaps in code the writers were too lazy to include
18:35:47 <oklofok> at least afair, i didn't actually do any of them, and i read it quite a while ago
18:38:44 <oerjan> <elliott> alcohol is plural? <-- i don't know it's all arabic to me
18:40:38 <oerjan> `addquote <nddrylliog> I went to chat with him after his talk at the ELC and he was like "hum, right - humans. How do they work again... oh, hi!"
18:40:41 <HackEgo> 277) <nddrylliog> I went to chat with him after his talk at the ELC and he was like "hum, right - humans. How do they work again... oh, hi!"
18:41:21 <oklofok> i wonder if he actually said that out loud
18:42:14 <oerjan> <nddrylliog> btw where are you guys located? <-- all over europe and north american, plus the occasional korean, south african and kiwi
18:43:22 <oklofok> "Any "if" statement requires at least 14,000 subconditions."
18:43:42 <oklofok> that's actually quite many
18:44:03 <elliott> JS quine: _=/[,'_='+_+_(_)]+/,'_='+_+_(_)
18:45:26 <oklofok> can you parse that for me, my js skills are slightly lesser than that.
18:46:07 <elliott> i'm not even sure how it works, that // is a regexp i believe
18:46:28 <elliott> x = /[,'_='+_+_(_)]+/, '_=' + _ + _(_)
18:46:36 <quintopia> i bet it matches the rest of the string as a regexp
18:46:36 <elliott> x = /[,'_='+_+_(_)]+/, "_=" + _ + _(_)
18:46:44 <elliott> since _ is clearly assigned in ther
18:46:58 <elliott> oh maybe the regex stringifies in a weird way
18:47:10 <oklofok> does the comma after "/" separate two statements
18:47:13 <oklofok> or expressions or whatever
18:48:11 <elliott> oerjan: oh... well let's pretend not, since he's irritating
18:48:14 <elliott> x = /[,'_='+_+_(_)]+/, "_=" + _ + _(_)
18:48:31 <elliott> regexp = /[,'_='+_+_(_)]+/, "_=" + regexp + regexp(regexp)
18:48:36 <elliott> ok so I bet regex(foo) matches regex on foo
18:48:39 <oklofok> well right, that was obvious
18:48:42 <elliott> so regexp(regexp) matches a regex on itself
18:48:54 <elliott> the [] is just the listing of characters used in the expression
18:49:08 <oerjan> <- norwegian, and strangely the only regular one i think
18:49:09 <elliott> so i guess the match results in the regexp's stringification itself
18:49:19 <elliott> but i don't see how that'd be different to just regexp.toString(), which could be written as just +regexp
18:49:29 <oerjan> although i recall someone else not too long ago
18:50:00 <oerjan> oh wait nddrylliog already left
18:50:18 <oklofok> but his name was something like thor
18:51:07 <oklofok> as elliott said, he was Velmont here
18:51:14 <oerjan> kipple is norwegian of course but he hasn't been seen in ages afaik
18:52:47 <oerjan> actually both the korean and the south african are present, just not saying much :)
18:54:25 <oerjan> and for some reason we have no danish regular that i can recall, there are some obvious holes here >:)
18:54:59 <elliott> it's because danes are stupid obviously
18:55:00 <oklofok> not really, 3 finns, 2 swedes, 1 norwegian, 0 danish
18:55:06 <elliott> let's say Herobrine is a dane
18:55:14 <elliott> although technically he should be a swede
18:55:17 <elliott> but maybe notch is secretly danish
18:55:26 <oerjan> elliott: well it almost looks like it could be danish
18:55:27 <elliott> (herobrine is notch's dead brother)
18:56:17 <oklofok> elliott: logging channels is unethical
18:56:51 <Gregor> Sex with weetabix is also unethical.
18:56:56 <oerjan> oklofok: but but it's so nicely formatted. well better than tunes.org anyway. although i am having a bit of trouble getting used to proportional irc font.
18:56:57 <Gregor> But you don't see ethics stopping us, do you?
18:57:37 <Gregor> elliott: THE FORMATTING SUCKS AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD
18:58:02 <oklofok> "proportional irc font" and "nicely formatted" don't really fit in the same internet.
18:58:16 <elliott> Gregor: What's wrong with the formatting.
18:58:24 -!- j-invariant has joined.
18:58:27 <elliott> oh maybe my font alias isn't right
18:58:32 <Gregor> Yeah, it's monospace :P
18:58:35 <elliott> oerjan: Can you screenshawt :P
18:58:38 <elliott> Gregor: I think it only is on Linux
18:58:48 <elliott> but Mono is a local fontconfig alias I think
18:58:56 <Gregor> Unicode SO needs a TROLL FACE codepoint.
18:59:02 <elliott> I had it as originally proportional, but changed it because the dates didn't line up :P
18:59:09 <oerjan> elliott: i cannot reach the host at the moment
18:59:16 <elliott> oerjan: try reconnecting, it's synchronous
18:59:21 <elliott> (i wrote my own http server :D)
19:00:55 <oerjan> i've never done a screenshot before :D
19:01:47 <elliott> alt+printscreen if you have donkey porn in the taskbar and just want to screenshot one window
19:03:03 <oerjan> i've tried all kinds of combinations of Fn/shift/ctrl/alt with Prt Scr and none of them seem to have any effect what so ever
19:03:14 <elliott> oerjan: they just copy to clipboard
19:03:16 <elliott> <elliott> oerjan: open paint
19:03:20 <elliott> plz2be following instructions in full
19:06:04 <oerjan> now i cannot reach imgur :(
19:08:21 <oerjan> elliott: http://imgur.com/mahzT
19:09:04 <Gregor> while true; do nc 208.78.103.223 80; done
19:09:08 <elliott> lol @ having cellebration on your desktop :D
19:09:36 <elliott> oerjan: hmm i'm trying to decide between making the alignment work with proportional or making it monospaced for everyone :D
19:09:42 <oerjan> it's rarely opened these days
19:09:52 <elliott> oerjan: I basically need to rewrite the formatter, since it's an awful, awful hack
19:09:58 <elliott> thankfully the logs themselves are raw IRC
19:10:03 <elliott> so I can pretty much format them as I want
19:11:13 <oerjan> other than that, my desktop is rather clean, the only icon that's hidden is the image i just uploaded
19:11:59 <oerjan> i don't have icons for porn
19:12:12 <elliott> Oh, right, it's donkey RESEARCH.
19:12:23 <elliott> oerjan: You're 40, you can't do that, it's creepy. :p
19:12:29 <Gregor> Donkey porn is BIBLICALLY APPROVED
19:12:45 <oerjan> Gregor: as long as the donkey is FEMALE, mind you
19:12:45 <elliott> YOU HAD YOUR CHANCE TO ALLUDE CRYPTICALLY TO THINGS AND THAT CHANCE IS GONE
19:13:01 <Gregor> oerjan: The donkey has to be male, the human has to be female.
19:13:02 -!- zzo38 has joined.
19:13:30 <oerjan> you are the half-jew, you should know this stuff
19:13:43 <oklofok> so what, if i love both donkeys AND god, i have to get a sex change operation
19:14:42 <oklofok> hey i just played that game a couple days ago
19:14:45 <elliott> oerjan: i didn't realise anyone actually used my logs except for me, my ego is soooo boosted :D
19:15:43 <oerjan> <Gregor> Unicode SO needs a TROLL FACE codepoint. <-- dammit there's going to be Unicode exhaustion eventually isn't there
19:16:04 <elliott> just make a codepoint an ipv6 address
19:16:15 <elliott> that runs a server that gives back the unicode info for it
19:16:22 <elliott> then, it's even distributed! anyone can make their own character!
19:16:56 <oklofok> that's actually not a bad idea
19:17:06 <oklofok> you should write that down
19:17:16 <elliott> Herobrine WROTE IT DOWN FOR ME
19:17:31 <quintopia> just because it's not the worst, doesn't mean it's actually good
19:17:59 <oklofok> but i wanna make my own character!
19:18:29 <oklofok> it would be a perfect circle
19:18:46 <oklofok> that spams itself a few times when you type it
19:19:19 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: i didn't realise anyone actually used my logs except for me, my ego is soooo boosted :D <-- it's nice to not have to scroll horizontally
19:19:38 <elliott> oerjan: also it has a saner timezone :P
19:20:37 <quintopia> i would make a character that was the current unix timestamp
19:20:52 <elliott> oklofok: also mirrored perhaps
19:20:59 <oklofok> quintopia: lol first you say you hate the idea and then you're all like OMG LET'S DO THIS I WANNA DO SOME TIMESTAMP STUFF
19:21:24 <quintopia> just because i would not support it actually happening doesn't mean i wouldn't mess with it if it already existed
19:21:33 <quintopia> it's not that it isn't a cool idea in theory
19:21:54 <oklofok> well everything in the universe should have their own ip
19:21:58 <oerjan> elliott: that too, although i eventually learned that tunes.org starts at 9am for me
19:22:00 <oklofok> unicode characters are no exception
19:22:00 <quintopia> sort of like having a character that looks different every time you requested it is a weird thing
19:22:04 <Gregor> Just needs smart caching + big lists of constants.
19:23:23 <oerjan> <quintopia> i would make a character that was the current unix timestamp <-- so basically you want to move unicode to ipv6 in such a way that you can get ipv6 exhausted as well?
19:26:08 <oerjan> hm if humanity discovers FTL travel and communication then ipv6 would likely no longer be sufficient would it
19:26:22 <lambdabot> 340282366920938463463374607431768211456
19:27:22 <oerjan> (assuming we also keep breeding like rabbits)
19:27:43 <lambdabot> 109074813561941592946298424473378286244826416199623269243183278618972133184...
19:27:54 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at end o...
19:27:54 <elliott> I'd just use a one-kilobyte identifier for everything if that happened
19:27:59 <lambdabot> 200352993040684646497907235156025575044782547556975141926501697371089405955...
19:28:53 <oerjan> elliott: both of those should work if EgoBot doesn't timeout
19:28:58 <EgoBot> 1090748135619415929462984244733782862448264161996232692431832786189721331849119295216264234525201987223957291796157025273109870820177184063610979765077554799078906298842192989538609825228048205159696851613591638196771886542609324560121290553901886301017900252535799917200010079600026535836800905297805880952350501630195475653911005312364560014847426035293551245843928918752768696279344088055617515694349945406677825140814900616105920256438504578013326493565836047242
19:29:05 <elliott> is that the whole thing, i wonder
19:29:22 <oerjan> and of course there's that bug that it sometimes prints long lines only at the next command
19:29:32 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:29:44 <Gregor> I think that bug was only the previous EgoBot ...?
19:30:01 <oklofok> that's not really infinity........
19:30:13 -!- elliott has joined.
19:30:14 <oklofok> it's just really big........................................
19:30:17 <oerjan> Gregor: well it ignored the !help, i was assuming that was the bug happening since !help is unlikely to timeout
19:30:20 <elliott> oerjan: i'm sure ipv6 is _sufficient_ -- 2^80 atoms in the visible universe and all -- but the technology means no
19:30:26 <elliott> oerjan: since there's a minimum allocation size
19:30:32 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
19:30:35 <oerjan> elliott: _10_^80 i believe
19:30:39 <elliott> and /actual/ allocations are far bigger than that, the usual allocation is many times the whole ipv4 address space
19:31:08 <oerjan> elliott: and of course FTL might easily get beyond the _visible_ universe
19:31:12 <elliott> oerjan: well a one-kibibyte identifier should be just fine for anything, even with a relatively crazy allocation policy. but of course then you can't really type them in
19:31:20 <elliott> OTOH, in an advanced FTL society, who would type anything like that manually :)
19:32:13 <elliott> oerjan: so basically a one kibibyte identifier could identify every atom in the visible universe 31 times
19:32:27 <elliott> oerjan: which, even in an FTL society, should be ok, since we're unlikely to want to actually give atoms addresses
19:32:35 <oerjan> elliott: btw lambdabot gives longer answers in privmsg
19:33:38 <j-invariant> log(infinity)=infinity <-- mtwo different infinities
19:33:43 <oerjan> in fact didn't lambdabot use to give longer responses than that in the channel before...
19:35:06 <quintopia> j-invariant: no, not really. there is a bijection...
19:36:17 <quintopia> indeed, log(x) and exp(x) provide a bijection between the positive reals and the reals...QED
19:36:29 <elliott> quintopia: hey that is cool
19:37:07 <quintopia> you can fill in the blanks here j-invariant
19:37:17 <oerjan> <elliott> heh, strange <-- i assume it's an anti-spamming measure
19:37:20 <j-invariant> I must read infinitely differently than you mean it
19:37:21 <oklofok> but if you want to make those functions continuous between the extended reals and extended positive reals, infinities would go to infinities right
19:37:28 <elliott> oerjan: one message can't really be spam
19:37:40 <oklofok> 0 <=> -infinity, infinity <=> infinity
19:38:16 <oerjan> elliott: it could still be annoying if it happened frequently, as is easy in haskell because of infinite lists
19:38:47 <elliott> oerjan: 2^big is just the same as [1..] i don't see the connection to infinite lists here
19:39:01 <quintopia> well yeah, i was, at that moment, making fun of the fact that lambdabot didn't do the lazy thing that preserves precision
19:39:21 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:39:35 -!- cheater- has joined.
19:39:37 <oerjan> elliott: i mean it is sometimes easier in haskell to write something that gives an infinite list even if you just want a few terms
19:39:41 <oklofok> j-invariant: i don't know what he meant, i just went mmmmm topology
19:40:04 <oerjan> > let fib=1:1:zipWith(+)fib(tail fib) in fib
19:40:05 <lambdabot> [1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,1...
19:41:45 <oerjan> > logBase 10 (2^8192) :: CReal
19:42:30 <oklofok> hmm, fibs actually do grow pretty fucking fast
19:42:43 <oklofok> i never realized how few there actually were below 1000
19:42:47 <oerjan> oklofok: they _are_ exponential up to rounding
19:42:54 <oklofok> well of course i know that
19:43:15 <j-invariant> that's how Matiyasevich produce a diophantine representation of the exponential function
19:43:23 <quintopia> hmm, exponential sequences actually do grow pretty fucking fast
19:43:29 <j-invariant> using binary quadratic forms to encode matrix multiplication which encodes fibonacci
19:43:31 <oerjan> j-invariant: oh, i didn't know that
19:43:50 * oerjan had been assuming it was something more insane
19:43:57 <j-invariant> that was the final missing peice of the theorem
19:44:58 <oerjan> quintopia: btw the :: CReal test above was to see what happened when we _make_ lambdabot do the lazy thing that preserves precision. alas.
19:45:23 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
19:46:16 <oklofok> the fibonacci word is given by the morphism f(a) = ab, f(b) = a and it's totally sturmian
19:46:32 <oklofok> by taking the limit of a's orbit
19:48:02 -!- elliott has joined.
19:48:09 <oerjan> it's a substitution shift system, we made bratteli-vershik diagrams for it during my phd years
19:48:29 <oerjan> that wasn't something entirely new then though
19:48:43 <oklofok> yeah that's very old stuff
19:49:20 -!- Slereah has joined.
19:49:29 <oklofok> a guy at uni gave a few lectures about bratteli diagrams once
19:49:58 <oklofok> what this vershik thing is i cannot understand
19:50:03 <oerjan> ah forum message. in delicious japanese.
19:50:21 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/forum/index.rss
19:50:31 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/forum/
19:51:17 <elliott> oerjan: i'm going to renovate that log-viewer now
19:51:24 <elliott> but i need a nice web server :(
19:51:49 <oerjan> oklofok: you add an order to the edges above each vertex, this gives you the dynamic map for all paths except one, which will if you do it right only have one possible place to map to
19:51:59 <oklofok> oerjan: it just always has the same stuff in katakana as in the link
19:52:23 <oerjan> oklofok: you realize i _was_ joking about the spam, right?
19:52:26 <oklofok> oerjan: yeah we actually talked about that stuff in pm when i had those lectures :D
19:52:38 <oerjan> oklofok: yeah probably
19:52:52 <oerjan> oklofok: that forum message is spam, surely
19:53:19 <oerjan> unless tiffanyjewhatever is an unexpected esolang site
19:53:23 <oklofok> oh well right, possibly, i just thought of it as an exercise in translating japanese
19:53:42 <oklofok> but umm, i don't actually remember how exactly substitutions have to do with bretteli diagrams, just that dynamic map thing
19:54:02 <oklofok> j-invariant: oh that old thing
19:55:02 <oklofok> "old thing" sort of implies that as abelian groups don't really have a nice little chracterization otherwise afai
19:55:21 <j-invariant> im not trying to classify the finite simple groups :D
19:55:32 <oerjan> j-invariant: all finite abelian groups are direct products of cyclic ones
19:55:57 <oklofok> everyone knows that, no one remembers how it's done
19:56:05 <oklofok> it's probably actually not that hard
19:56:05 <oerjan> neither do i, on the spot
19:56:15 <oklofok> but i have no idea where to start
19:56:18 <j-invariant> oklofok: I tried induction on composition series
19:56:29 <oklofok> i remember that one of the first things you do is characterize the free ones
19:56:31 <j-invariant> so that gets it down to classifying abelian extensions of products of prime powers
19:56:37 <oklofok> then you separate into free part and torsion part
19:56:41 -!- nddrylliog has joined.
19:56:43 <oklofok> and then you characterize the finite stuff
19:56:57 <nddrylliog> back o/ with a good excuse for weird code this time (ie. trojka)
19:57:12 <oerjan> j-invariant: what about separating the different primes first?
19:57:22 <oklofok> i don't even remember what a composition series is :P
19:57:32 <oerjan> they _should_ be separate parts of the product
19:57:44 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:57:45 <oerjan> since that's true for cyclic ones
19:57:54 <elliott> !haskell data Foo = A { x :: Int } | B { x :: Int }
20:00:42 <oklofok> so take the elements whose order is p, and then in some totally standard fashion show that part and the rest form the group as a direct product
20:00:57 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:01:16 -!- cheater- has joined.
20:01:19 <oerjan> <oklofok> but umm, i don't actually remember how exactly substitutions have to do with bretteli diagrams, just that dynamic map thing <-- well for a -> ab, b -> a you basically let each level except the top have two vertices labeled a and b, and up from the a one you have edges to both a and b above, in that order, and from b you have just one edge to a above. so you just read the edges off the substitution. although sometimes you need to massage it a
20:01:27 <j-invariant> but once it is seperated you still have to prove it :P
20:02:03 <oklofok> "sometimes you need to massage it a"
20:03:10 <oklofok> you have to show the group can't have an element that has order p that is generated by the subset of elements that don't have order p right
20:03:21 <oklofok> i have no idea how to do this
20:03:39 <oerjan> oklofok: it a bit afterward to ensure the "only one path left out" property.
20:03:49 <elliott> hey oerjan, StateT [String] IO
20:03:53 <elliott> this code is gonna be so ugly
20:04:01 <elliott> because whether to show a message or not depends on folded state
20:04:24 <oerjan> elliott: wait are you rewriting your logs in haskell? :D
20:04:42 <elliott> oerjan: rewriting the formatter, yes, currently it's the ugliest Ruby script ever written
20:04:52 <j-invariant> What really hurts my heart is Gauss proved all this stuff without even knowing the word "group"
20:04:59 <elliott> oerjan: the logbot I might rewrite in haskell too, but really the entirety of what it does is: respond to pings and discard them; log everything else to the current date
20:05:05 <elliott> so it's trivially swappable
20:06:12 <elliott> if the "target" of a MODE command is the channel it's sent to, what should I call the list of names and channels at the end?
20:06:16 <oerjan> elliott: do you really need your state to contain all the lines so far?
20:06:30 <oerjan> assuming that's what you are doing
20:06:32 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:06:34 <elliott> oerjan: no, but I have to keep track of who is in the channel, so that I know which PARTs and QUITs to display
20:06:48 <elliott> oerjan: this is because the same bot runs in both channels
20:07:22 -!- cheater- has joined.
20:07:31 <elliott> oerjan: i am /tempted/ to just make Herobrine log only #esoteric-minecraft, and have the #esoteric part just be an interface to the clog logs
20:07:45 <elliott> oerjan: but I'm not so sure, since clog is down relatively often and doesn't log perfectly
20:07:56 <oerjan> elliott: you could drop the IO part by using lazy input, couldn't you?
20:08:11 <elliott> oerjan: oh where did IO come from... it's not IO at all actually
20:08:31 <elliott> where Html is from blaze-html
20:08:32 <Sgeo> I want to learn Alice ML, but don't want to learn Standard ML first
20:08:35 <elliott> still, State is kinda ugly
20:08:38 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:08:38 <elliott> Sgeo: standard ml is nice enough
20:08:47 <Sgeo> Does it have OCaml
20:08:50 <elliott> alice ml seems like a mess
20:08:52 <elliott> Sgeo: does what have ocaml
20:08:53 <Sgeo> OCaml's +. weirdness?
20:08:54 <oerjan> elliott: you _could_ pass the state explicitly you know
20:09:06 <elliott> Sgeo: it instead has a special case for numeric types >:D
20:09:17 <Sgeo> elliott, FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU
20:09:35 <elliott> Sgeo: pick one. typeclasses weren't really known at the time
20:09:38 <Sgeo> <==not actually that upset)
20:09:39 <elliott> oerjan: yeah, but "let (realresult,crap) = recurse in (foo:realresult,crap)" is even uglier
20:10:16 <oerjan> elliott: oh and btw you need to get the channel members at the start of each logging period
20:10:35 <Sgeo> Wouldn't a logbot in Erlang make sense?
20:10:50 <elliott> oerjan: indeed, one of my gripes with clog is that it doesn't have this, but OTOH it already does the filtering for me
20:11:10 <elliott> oerjan: still, for clog claiming to be a "raw" format, it omits much and is not trivial to parse
20:11:35 <elliott> i still need to get fizzie and Vorpal to give me their private logs so I can try and merge everything :P
20:12:43 <oerjan> oklofok: the massaging is usually what we call "telescoping", removing some subset of the levels and collapsing the paths between them to edges. iirc this works if you choose the levels to remove right.
20:13:05 <elliott> oerjan: I think what I'll do is make the #esoteric logs be formatted clog logs rewound to UTC ... except no
20:13:10 <elliott> because it'd only update, like, every day
20:13:23 <elliott> oerjan: OK, I'll stick to using Herobrine's logs for now, and work on getting the clog ones formatted for the archive.
20:13:42 <oklofok> oerjan: all that sounds really familiar
20:13:48 <lambdabot> forall s a. State s a -> s -> (a, s)
20:14:01 <lambdabot> Text.Parsec.Prim stateUser :: State s u -> u
20:14:01 <lambdabot> Text.ParserCombinators.Parsec.Prim stateUser :: State s u -> u
20:14:01 <lambdabot> Control.Monad.State.Lazy evalState :: State s a -> s -> a
20:14:32 <elliott> actually Html is a monad itself
20:14:38 <elliott> @hoogle StateT s m a -> m a
20:14:39 <lambdabot> Control.Monad.State.Lazy evalStateT :: Monad m => StateT s m a -> s -> m a
20:14:39 <lambdabot> Control.Monad.State.Strict evalStateT :: Monad m => StateT s m a -> s -> m a
20:14:39 <lambdabot> Control.Monad.State.Lazy execStateT :: Monad m => StateT s m a -> s -> m s
20:14:59 <elliott> oerjan: actually, I could do the filtering beforehand
20:15:10 <elliott> keep track of nicks and filter out the irrelevant QUITs, and /then/ send it to the html press
20:17:10 <elliott> oerjan: ugh, having a few common fields in a record in haskell is a real pain :(
20:17:14 <elliott> why is everything so stupid
20:17:24 <oerjan> elliott: there's also evalState
20:17:33 <elliott> indeed, that's what I saw :P
20:18:02 * oerjan somehow glazed over the hoogle output
20:18:16 -!- acetoline has joined.
20:18:25 * elliott decides to represent timestamps as a String.
20:19:38 <oerjan> btw i _think_ clog's timezone is local time with DST shifts included
20:20:10 <oerjan> in case you want to get all of the history
20:21:48 <oerjan> elliott: yeah separating the nick handling from the printing sounds like a good idea
20:22:43 <elliott> oerjan: yeah the DST shifts are going to be a bitch
20:22:46 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:22:48 <elliott> gah, sometimes I really hate haskell-mode
20:22:52 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
20:22:58 <elliott> if it can't parse one line, it refuses to indent the rest of your code, forever
20:23:54 <oerjan> elliott: huh it should at least reset when things start at the beginning of a line, i think
20:24:09 <elliott> oerjan: yeah but it tries to indent based on past lines because it's clever
20:24:15 <elliott> so if it can't parse it just goes *cry*
20:24:34 <oerjan> unless it's inside literal brackets
20:25:28 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
20:25:58 <Vorpal> <elliott> i still need to get fizzie and Vorpal to give me their private logs so I can try and merge everything :P <-- for my private log, only from mid-2010 and later can be considered even. Before that the format was really screwed up and would be ambiguous.
20:26:01 <oerjan> hm i guess if you have a {} mismatch resetting at things starting at column 0/1 may technically be incorrect
20:26:26 <elliott> Vorpal: ambiguity is absolutely fine, I remember you talking about it: the specific case is so rare as to be irrelevant, and combined with other log sources + manual disambiguating it could work fine
20:26:44 <elliott> really everybody's private log would be ideal, but most people's are probably very small :P
20:26:50 <elliott> OTOH, Vorpal only has like 2008 onwards
20:26:56 <Vorpal> elliott, also there could be stuff from nickserv in there earlier.
20:27:00 <elliott> whereas fizzie I think has the mostpart of the entire channel
20:27:21 <elliott> oerjan: yeah but i'd rather it just forget that line ever existed rather than giving up for the rest of the file
20:27:22 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but how can I trust I got everything out? What I will do is white list to set out the proper stuff
20:27:36 <Vorpal> as in channel messages, actions, joins parts and so on
20:28:22 <elliott> [27 of 27] Compiling System.Console.Haskeline.IO ( System/Console/Haskeline/IO.hs, dist/build/System/Console/Haskeline/IO.o )
20:28:22 <elliott> System/Console/Haskeline/MonadException.hs:23:7:
20:28:23 <elliott> Could not find module `Control.Monad.State':
20:28:40 <Vorpal> elliott, huh? broken installation?
20:29:11 <elliott> maybe, or profiling libraries, or something
20:33:03 <elliott> i hereby appoint myself the channel's archivist since nobody else will
20:33:31 <elliott> hm actually I could use clog's logs by simply making the proxy request whenever anyone tries to view a log
20:33:35 <elliott> might be a bit slow though
20:34:45 <Vorpal> elliott, and not very nice towards tunes.org
20:34:55 <Vorpal> elliott, better use a local copy. It isn't large really
20:35:03 <elliott> it'd only load tunes.org whenever someone loaded a log
20:35:13 <elliott> if my interface didn't exist, whoever it was would just load up tunes.org instead
20:35:19 <elliott> the load is exactly the same, what are you talking about?
20:35:31 <elliott> I'd probably cache, say, 2 days old logs plus
20:35:31 <Vorpal> elliott, okay I misunderstood you then
20:35:34 <elliott> (2 days for allow to UTC adjustment)
20:35:39 <elliott> but for the latest log it'd load from tunes.org
20:36:03 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway you need to normalise timezones :P
20:36:11 <Vorpal> elliott, my older logs would be affected by this
20:36:22 <Vorpal> elliott, but current format records offset
20:36:24 <elliott> yes, the clog logs will be normalised to UTC
20:36:32 <elliott> which will make the current day "fun" to stitch together :)
20:36:48 <elliott> and I'm not sure there's a non-heuristictastic way to detect this
20:37:08 <Vorpal> elliott, my logs use dst too. Since mid 2010 the offset is recorded for every line though. Older logs, not so.
20:37:25 <Vorpal> elliott, and the files are split per month by a cron job that triggers once a month
20:37:27 <elliott> really, logging "HH:MM:SS <raw irc line>" in UTC is the sanest way in the long term, plus doing TOPIC and NAMES at the start of each new day
20:37:31 <elliott> since you can turn that into basically anything else
20:37:38 <elliott> but you can't reliably turn other things back into that
20:37:48 <elliott> it's simple to write a log bot that does that too :P
20:37:58 <Vorpal> 2011-01-22 21:45:56 +0100 <elliott>it's simple to write a log bot that does that too :P
20:38:09 <elliott> right, that's imperfect for long-term archiving
20:38:16 <elliott> there's no point to do the pretty-printing at that stag
20:38:21 <elliott> it's error-prone, as you've pointed out
20:38:24 <Vorpal> elliott, actually the timestamp is perfectly possible to extract correctly
20:38:29 <Vorpal> elliott, since it records +0100
20:38:32 <elliott> that's ... not what i said at all
20:38:40 <Vorpal> elliott, then I don't see what you mean
20:39:24 <Vorpal> elliott, oh you mean the raw line. well that would be a hell to pick out since I don't log all channels anyway. I don't log a few really high traffic ones I'm in
20:39:42 <Vorpal> elliott, and I prefer it per channel
20:39:45 <elliott> I'm talking about long-term archiving logging bots, not personal logs.
20:39:58 <Vorpal> elliott, well you talked about wanting my logs :P
20:40:03 <elliott> For logging a channel, raw IRC is the only thing that makes sense, because it's the most reliable by far.
20:40:13 <elliott> Processing = potential for bugs.
20:40:58 <Sgeo> Let an Erlang process do the processing, if the processing process collapses, switch to raw logs
20:41:00 <Vorpal> elliott, but that can still have bugs
20:41:05 <oerjan> <elliott> and I'm not sure there's a non-heuristictastic way to detect this <-- well in the autumn you do have a couple hours that can theoretically be undistinguishable if there are no messages in a 1-hour period inside them. i think.
20:41:32 <oerjan> (assuming you use non-heuristical means to detect when the timezone actually changes)
20:41:35 <elliott> Vorpal: I'd trust "if PING; respond; else utctime + " " + line; done" about as much as I'd trust any piece of code...
20:41:36 <Vorpal> elliott, Better use RAID 1 or better. And ECC memory. And multiple radiation hardened CPUs running in lock step with circuits to compare what they do to flag errors.
20:41:44 <elliott> oerjan: oh, ofc, i can just look at a database
20:42:11 <elliott> Vorpal: i don't take channel logging _that_ seriously
20:42:17 <elliott> but i do take it seriously enough to be sad that clog does it wrong
20:42:27 <Vorpal> elliott, iirc there are weird jumps in mid-august some year for clog
20:42:35 <Vorpal> elliott, that look DSTish but aren't
20:42:47 <elliott> once I get this interface up and running, I'm going to start the Chronological Logreading Effort
20:43:05 <Vorpal> elliott, the best way would be to try to match up sources against each other I think.
20:43:09 <elliott> 2003-present, all clog logs. although we might skip over most of 2004 as it's a wasteland of non-activity.
20:43:16 <elliott> Vorpal: Thus why I want fizzie's logs :P
20:43:18 <Vorpal> elliott, I made an attempt at that but it didn't work out
20:43:26 <Vorpal> elliott, netsplits make it a real pain
20:43:46 <Vorpal> though I only tried fairly simple algorithms
20:43:49 <elliott> Netsplits I think I'll just choose one side of... or have two log files for separate quantumly views. Mostly one side is pretty silent.
20:43:58 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm happy doing most of the work myself :P
20:44:12 <Vorpal> elliott, well and clog going down.
20:44:25 <elliott> Yes, I do wonder why it's so damn unreliable.
20:45:45 <elliott> (For layout, but actually it's perfectly valid tabular data.)
20:45:55 <elliott> Specifically, the time and message as two different columns.
20:46:05 <elliott> Heck, I could even do right-aligned, if I was a fan of hideousness!
20:46:08 <oerjan> <Vorpal> elliott, iirc there are weird jumps in mid-august some year for clog <-- darn right i remember that happening too
20:46:15 <elliott> right-aligned nicks that is
20:46:33 <elliott> well Herobrine's logging should be pretty consistent from now on ...
20:46:49 <oerjan> it temporarily used a different time zone than usually. it may even have been UTC.
20:47:04 <Vorpal> <elliott> right-aligned nicks that is <-- you know, I'll just use firebug to change it on the fly :P
20:47:18 <elliott> Vorpal: Ooh, ooh, maybe I'll have SETTINGS.
20:47:23 <elliott> (No, that can wait for botte.)
20:47:50 <oerjan> elliott: mad idea: use heuristics based on who was talking when to guess timezone ;D
20:48:43 <oerjan> hey it's the only way to detect such a timezone jump i would think
20:49:26 <oerjan> oh or that source matching up thing could also work
20:49:28 <pikhq> oerjan: Wouldn't work here, though.
20:49:48 <oerjan> pikhq: _some_ people may have more reliable schedules than others
20:50:02 <pikhq> And some of us went to bed at 2 AM.
20:50:15 <Sgeo> Dear form: You should probably specify the format the date needs to be in BEFORE telling me I got it wrong
20:50:19 <pikhq> Been there done that.
20:50:32 <pikhq> Just not doing so presently.
20:50:56 <Vorpal> elliott, some of the time changes have no lines spoken for a backward jump
20:51:06 <Vorpal> elliott, so you can't even detect something fishy going on
20:51:15 <Vorpal> only found it by comparing logs
20:51:22 <elliott> Vorpal: you mean the next time is after the previous one, but in actual fact it's like two hours after?
20:51:47 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean that you don't have anything like 00:00:10, 00:00:05 and so on
20:51:51 <elliott> THIS IS WHY WE USE UTC PEOPLE
20:51:56 <Vorpal> elliott, where you can see thgy are out of order
20:51:59 <elliott> Vorpal: well you can easily detect that
20:52:04 <elliott> if time goes backwards, yell at the operator, ask them to compare logs
20:52:12 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but it doesn't there
20:52:24 <elliott> <elliott> 00:00:00, 00:00:05
20:52:24 <elliott> <elliott> when in reality it's
20:52:24 <elliott> <elliott> 00:00:00, 02:00:05
20:52:29 <Vorpal> elliott, because there are no suitable lines spoken
20:52:37 <Vorpal> elliott, yes. something like that
20:52:45 <oerjan> <pikhq> And some of us went to bed at 2 AM. <-- hey at this point that's about what i'm _aspiring_ to do :D
20:52:55 <oerjan> just to get it regular
20:53:08 <elliott> oerjan: melatonin not working? :P
20:53:11 <pikhq> oerjan: I've got a class at 10AM... I could do with sleeping earlier.
20:53:23 <Vorpal> elliott, or even that a line was spoken at 01:20, and another at 01:40 but in reality it was 01:20 and 02:40 or such. That happened too iirc
20:53:36 <oerjan> elliott: seems to be working, at least somewhat
20:53:40 <elliott> Vorpal: that's basically what i said
20:56:09 <pikhq> Debian squeeze to be released Feb. 5th. Whooo.
20:56:09 <oerjan> elliott: what vorpal says is just what i was alluding to above with "two hours with a silent 1 hour period within"
20:56:40 <elliott> pikhq: and it's already obsolete! :D
20:56:49 <pikhq> elliott: Not very.
20:56:58 <oerjan> elliott: of course this only happens once a year
20:57:03 <elliott> pikhq: well it's a gnome version behind at least
20:57:40 <oerjan> (the spring case of jumping forward is not a problem if you know the actual times of DST changing)
21:00:46 <elliott> holy shit http://haha.nu/entertainment/games/sensation-mario-doesnt-hit-the-blocks-with-his-head/comment-page-1/
21:00:59 <elliott> "Wait but if you crouch jump, he'll hit it with his head. So it's kinda both."
21:01:12 <pikhq> elliott: More like half of a Gnome version behind; it's using a bizarre hybrid of 2.30 and 2.32.
21:01:28 <pikhq> Not that I care, for I don't use Gnome.
21:01:32 <elliott> pikhq: This is why everyone should use Alacrity!
21:02:09 <elliott> pikhq: alacrity-panel is what I'm calling my fork of gnome-panel once it gets abandoned in lieu of GNOME "Shit" 3
21:02:40 <nddrylliog> http://www.indianexpress.com/news/nanavati-panels-alacrity-surprises-rights/363226/ ?
21:03:10 <elliott> Alacrity was just the first word I thought of :P
21:03:18 <nddrylliog> elliott: I've been watching you for an hour now
21:04:10 <nddrylliog> Although I couldn't quite make sense out of all this timezone discussion. Logs should be easy :x
21:05:33 <elliott> nddrylliog: it's more that clog sucks :D
21:05:56 <nooga> i started mc and i see a title: MINECRAFT with flashing, yellow "Technically good!"
21:07:49 <oerjan> technically officially
21:07:55 <elliott> i have been able to figure out upsettingly little about oerjan from his screenshot, other than that he /still/ hasn't switched to WinGhci
21:08:33 <oerjan> elliott: i have the haskell platform downloaded but i couldn't get it set up the way i like
21:08:35 <nooga> which screenoshot?
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21:10:51 <oerjan> elliott: (1) winghci had utterly broken scrolling when the window is not maximized. (2) both winghci and ghci have the unpleasant property of _thwarting_ gvim's attempt to detach from the calling process when i use :e. (winghci has an & prefix to the editor setting which _should_ turn this off but didn't)
21:11:32 <elliott> oerjan: (1) hm did it? I never noticed that
21:11:38 <nddrylliog> okay so I'm glad ooc has syntax highlighting by default in gedit now (yes, in Ubuntu 10.10, haha my life is successful) but 1) why all-caps? 2) why the fucking red background on try/catch ???
21:11:50 <elliott> oerjan: if you used emacs and inferior-haskell you'd have no problem :D
21:11:57 <elliott> nddrylliog: i know the answers to these questions!
21:12:46 <oerjan> elliott: as for (1) text disappears beneath the window and the scrollbar cannot reach it
21:13:07 <elliott> oerjan: actually, you could use emacs just as a host for ghci :D
21:14:25 <oerjan> nooga: http://i.imgur.com/mahzT.png
21:14:34 <nddrylliog> elliott: nah, seriously. whoever did the default color mappings for gedit must live in a pumpkin-shaped violet house.
21:14:55 <elliott> nddrylliog: thankfully, nobody uses gedit
21:15:06 <elliott> don't tell him to stop using windows
21:15:07 <nddrylliog> elliott: except drunk and lazy people - ie. me right now
21:15:28 <nddrylliog> oerjan: I'm pretty sure it's in fact NetBSD with skins just to troll everyone
21:15:44 <nddrylliog> hmph yeah they wouldn't be pixel-perfect.
21:15:46 <elliott> yes, using windows and IE is now old-school
21:15:56 <nddrylliog> I gave up XP when it would take 10 secondes to Alt-tab between League of Legends and Google Chrome
21:15:58 <oerjan> elliott: technically i used linux for years before this
21:16:13 <elliott> tbh, oerjan probably battles with computers a lot less than I do
21:16:24 <elliott> although i guess he doesn't ever compile C :D
21:16:46 <elliott> oh joy, parse error even with the new one
21:16:51 <oerjan> elliott: it has happened, then i use my nvg account
21:16:56 -!- elliott has left (?).
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21:17:46 <elliott> can't think of any other reasons
21:18:15 <nddrylliog> everyone (actually just elliott), stop using words that fail the Googles.
21:18:15 <oklofok> C: is a bit TOO smily. lips should not bend like that
21:18:24 <nddrylliog> Marine Corps Martial Arts Program is nothing I can relate with
21:18:44 <nddrylliog> oklofok: Functional languages don't usually bend that much.
21:18:44 <elliott> https://github.com/fis/mcmap
21:18:50 <elliott> for us poor minecraft-addicted bastards
21:19:18 <elliott> it also uses glib, so it's fairly horrifying
21:19:29 <elliott> sort of medium horrifying I would say
21:19:40 <nddrylliog> haskell, freenode, reddit, minecraft, github, imgur - seems to be a popular combination
21:19:57 <elliott> they've started to make big pngs turn into jpgs
21:20:00 <elliott> and i can't forgive that :(
21:20:10 <elliott> also i dislike freenode :P
21:20:24 <elliott> ...and i'm not the biggest fan of github either, dammit, i refuse to be a stereotype!
21:20:36 <elliott> @hoogle [a] -> [a] -> [a] -> [a]
21:20:38 <lambdabot> Network.CGI.Protocol replace :: Eq a => a -> a -> [a] -> [a]
21:20:38 <lambdabot> Prelude zipWith3 :: (a -> b -> c -> d) -> [a] -> [b] -> [c] -> [d]
21:20:38 <lambdabot> Data.List zipWith3 :: (a -> b -> c -> d) -> [a] -> [b] -> [c] -> [d]
21:20:51 <elliott> nddrylliog: mostly because i'm not such a fan of git
21:20:59 <elliott> (not for stupid reasons like "lol bad interface" either)
21:21:03 <oklofok> haskell, freenode, reddit, minecraft, github, imgur - i don't like any of these things
21:21:08 <elliott> I dislike hg for the same reason :P
21:21:26 <elliott> specifically, they view the repository in a dumb way
21:21:35 <elliott> they don't have any concept of patches, just full dumps of the repository contents
21:21:37 <oerjan> elliott: what did you want to hoogle?
21:21:41 <elliott> oerjan: replace substring :-D
21:21:47 <elliott> haskell lacks such advanced functions as these
21:22:09 <oerjan> well it's probably not very efficient with lists
21:22:29 <nddrylliog> hey, cute, my pet rats fell asleep on my lap.
21:22:39 <oerjan> you can easily write it with isPrefixOf and drop
21:22:43 <elliott> nddrylliog: they're pooping on you
21:22:53 <elliott> oerjan: oh right, I should use ByteStrings because of invalid unicode...
21:22:59 <nddrylliog> elliott: so is C. I'm not doing Haskell for that little.
21:23:02 <oklofok> i was in a pet store just the other day
21:23:07 <oklofok> looking at different kinds of rats
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21:23:45 <elliott> maybe i should store the timestamp properly
21:23:49 <elliott> like as an actual time thing
21:23:49 <Gregor> oklofok: Rats make great pets. They're like tiny cats.
21:24:03 <oklofok> Gregor: i would never get any sort of pet
21:24:04 <elliott> Gregor: cats are like big rats!
21:24:10 <oerjan> elliott: you want to allow at least both iso-8859-1 and utf-8 in irc lines
21:24:14 <elliott> nddrylliog: well that's just because you're stupid obviously, can't think of any other reason!
21:24:19 <elliott> oerjan: no, I'm just going to tell the browser it's utf-8
21:24:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I feel at this point that I should mention that elliott does not like Haskell very much either.
21:24:27 <elliott> oerjan: anyone who doesn't send utf-8 on irc is lame
21:24:43 <oerjan> oklofok: you heard elliott. unless you've changed it recently.
21:25:03 <elliott> i can't parse that line oerjan
21:25:04 <pikhq> oerjan: Nobody uses ISO-8859-1.
21:25:29 <oerjan> elliott: oklofok's messages used to be iso-8859-1 when i checked
21:25:44 <pikhq> oerjan: Though many people use Windows-1252 and call it ISO-8859-1.
21:26:06 <oerjan> pikhq: i doubt oklofok uses any characters not in the intersection
21:26:14 <elliott> oklofok should download a real client
21:26:56 <nddrylliog> I wonder what purpose would an util named "octocat" serve.
21:26:58 <oklofok> well if i was a cat, i'd probably eat rats
21:27:13 <pikhq> oerjan: Like... €?
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21:27:55 <nddrylliog> oklofok: even with delicious cat foot being served to you by puny humans?
21:27:57 <oerjan> <nddrylliog> elliott: so is C. I'm not doing Haskell for that little. <-- hey the proper reason for doing haskell is so you can experience your brain exploding^H^H^H^H^H^Handing
21:27:58 <pikhq> nddrylliog: Clearly it concatenates octopice.
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21:28:19 <nddrylliog> pikhq: what did i say about words that fail the Googles?
21:28:50 <pikhq> nddrylliog: hòkukàsiranaiyo.osietekure.
21:28:53 <nddrylliog> elliott: no, don't tell me you seriously don't see the ^H..
21:29:14 <nddrylliog> pikhq: that's... better.. or worse, can't decide. Omg undecidability.
21:29:31 <oerjan> pikhq: ok € is not in 8859-1, is it in -1252?
21:31:24 <fizzie> € is also in 8859-15, or latin-9.
21:32:41 <oerjan> nddrylliog: no pikhq's self-designed japanese romanization is _definitely_ worse.
21:33:17 <Gregor> It's also in ipv6unicode X-P
21:33:29 <oerjan> fizzie: is it in the same place as in Windows-1252?
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21:34:03 <fizzie> oerjan: Of course not.
21:34:04 <oerjan> i recall the 8859-/latin- sets are careful to not move characters
21:34:47 <fizzie> oerjan: 8859-1 is already "full" if you don't go to the 0x80..0x9f control codes like Windows-1252; 8859-15 just does some replacements.
21:34:53 <elliott> Gregor: We need to make IPv6nicode :P
21:35:09 <Gregor> elliott: Yessssssssss ... I don't even have ipv6 :P
21:35:31 <Gregor> Maybe DNSnicode would be a bit more accessible :P
21:35:44 <fizzie> The euro symbol in latin-9 replaces the generic "currency symbol".
21:35:58 <elliott> Gregor: The day we get an IPv6 call into the inner loop of Pango's text rendering is the day we succeed.
21:36:16 <oerjan> nddrylliog: does nddrylliog mean anything?
21:37:09 <oerjan> it looks vaguely welsh or something
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21:39:37 <elliott> i thought welsh too when you came in
21:39:53 <elliott> mrf, looks like I need to convert all this to utf-8, presumably invalid stuff can become the substitution char thing
21:40:52 <oerjan> elliott: um i just told you not to do that didn't i :(
21:41:15 <oerjan> and if you do historical logs, it will certainly be used even more
21:41:29 <nddrylliog> I'm a bit confused by nested () in Underload.
21:41:36 <elliott> oerjan: yeah but i was just going to embed things as-is :D
21:41:39 <elliott> nddrylliog: what's confusing
21:41:44 <nddrylliog> It says that ( pushes everything between it and the matching ) to the stack
21:41:51 <elliott> nddrylliog: (x)a === ((x))
21:41:55 <nddrylliog> so I understand that (Hello world) would push Hello world to the stack.
21:42:04 <elliott> and ((Hello world)) would push (Hello world)
21:42:18 <oerjan> elliott: ideally you would check lines for whether they are correct utf-8 and if not you could convert from latin-1
21:42:18 <elliott> ((Hello world))(bob)* pushes "(Hello world)bob"
21:42:24 <elliott> nddrylliog: that pushes (x)S to the stack
21:42:37 <elliott> oerjan: right, I'll see if I can even use some detection thing
21:42:43 <elliott> nddrylliog: or output, remember :)
21:42:46 <nddrylliog> (yes, I do actually use 'evaling' instead of 'evaluation')
21:42:51 <nddrylliog> right, but who outputs parenthesis anyway :D
21:42:58 <oerjan> elliott: beware of ^A and the like i guess
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21:42:58 <elliott> nddrylliog: um that is kind of vital
21:43:13 <elliott> oerjan: oh, i've processed that already by this point
21:44:27 <oerjan> elliott: there could be irc colors
21:44:28 -!- jix has joined.
21:44:39 <elliott> oerjan: this channel is +c, has it ever not been +c?
21:44:52 <elliott> hm i guess you actually got that escape from that message i pasted, but that's different (i saw it in the screenshot)
21:45:01 <oerjan> elliott: there probably have been occasions. or was that just in #haskell...
21:45:27 <elliott> it was ^H i think or something
21:45:45 <oerjan> elliott: um that's just ancient unix tradition afaik
21:46:06 <elliott> oerjan: no no no it was as an _escape_
21:46:14 <oerjan> elliott: i didn't actually write it as one character
21:46:21 <elliott> i was talking about MY line
21:46:26 <elliott> from the time you took the screenshot
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21:47:51 <oerjan> elliott: oh that one, well it was unrelated to what i did now, although i had been wondering why you pasted control codes
21:49:00 <oerjan> nddrylliog: mind you (Hello world) pushes Hello world to the stack as _one_ item
21:49:17 <oerjan> it's not split up into commands or characters
21:49:32 <elliott> nddrylliog: basically stack = list of string, when you see (, go to the matching ), that string inside, is pushed to the stack
21:49:41 <elliott> when you see an "a", you add ( before and ) after the top stack element
21:49:47 <elliott> when you see ^, you eval the top stack element
21:51:44 <nddrylliog> elliott: yeah that's what I had in mind from the beginning but.. I was wondering if the nesting was particular, or not.
21:52:23 <elliott> in fact you can make a variant of underload which doesn't even have ()
21:52:27 <elliott> although you can't really do IO
21:52:30 <oerjan> <nddrylliog> right, but who outputs parenthesis anyway :D <-- quines are a tradition and underload quines need them, also i sometimes have used (~aS:^):^ for printing the entire stack with elements in parentheses
21:52:52 <elliott> simple as this: when you run the instruction %, the previous instruction in the program (lexically) is pushed to the stack
21:53:08 <elliott> ():% makes the stack be (enclosed by []): [][][:]
21:53:18 <elliott> you can turn this into [:] by doing
21:53:31 <elliott> [][][:] -> [][:][] -> [][:] -> [:][] -> [:]
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21:53:41 <elliott> so (:) is the same as ():%~!~!
21:53:44 <elliott> except ofc you don't have ()
21:53:48 <elliott> but err how did I solve that
21:53:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:53:53 <elliott> I think I had an instruction to push ()
21:54:17 <oerjan> fizzie: we have a fungot deficiency
21:55:31 <lambdabot> forall a (m :: * -> *) b. (Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> [a] -> m ()
21:55:36 <oerjan> !underload (1)(2)(3)(~aS:^):^
21:55:36 <EgoBot> (3)(2)(1)Error: Stack underflow in ~
21:55:45 <lambdabot> forall a (m :: * -> *) b. (Monad m) => [a] -> (a -> m b) -> m ()
21:56:12 <elliott> oerjan: "(foo .) $ ..." <-- lol@me
21:57:07 <oerjan> elliott: that _could_ be useful in some cases, i'm sure
21:57:24 <oerjan> if the thing to the right of $ has low fixity
21:57:35 <elliott> formatLines = (table .) $ mapM_ $ \(Line timestamp origin message) -> do
21:57:41 <elliott> which then continues on the next line
21:57:50 <elliott> "table . mapM_ $ \... ->" is wrong obviously
21:58:23 <oerjan> elliott: you should use (table .) . mapM_ ... </cale>
21:58:29 <nddrylliog> ./underlood.ooc:46:64 ERROR Invalid use of operator = between operands of type Bool@ and Bool@
21:58:42 <elliott> oerjan: :D that's tempting
21:59:46 <oerjan> elliott: um that's recommended style by some, the not chaining $'s that is
22:00:07 <elliott> but in this case it seems weird
22:02:15 <elliott> nddrylliog: your compiler SUCKS :D
22:02:16 <oerjan> hm table . mapM_ ( ... ) would be correct but also ugly
22:02:19 <elliott> or your language, i'm not sure what it is here
22:02:23 <elliott> oerjan: well the lambda is multiple lines as i said
22:02:40 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:03:03 <oerjan> elliott: yes precisely
22:03:07 <elliott> No instance for (Data.String.IsString ByteString)
22:04:55 -!- cheater- has joined.
22:05:09 <nddrylliog> elliott: in this particular case yeah.
22:05:22 <elliott> nddrylliog: i blame mutability!
22:05:50 -!- fizzie has quit (Quit: jumpin' jumpin').
22:05:57 <nddrylliog> elliott: haha ^^ usually a good call, but.. not in this case :)
22:05:57 -!- fizzie has joined.
22:06:05 <elliott> <nddrylliog> elliott: haha ^^ usually a good call, but.. not in this case :)
22:06:13 <elliott> might as well make them complete!
22:06:19 -!- fungot has joined.
22:06:42 <oerjan> elliott: i think there's another option if you're willing to be more pointy: formatLines ls = table . forM_ ls $ ...
22:07:09 <elliott> oerjan: of course, i'm protesting against the gods of pointiness though
22:07:57 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
22:08:15 <oerjan> elliott: oh, shouldn't it be mapM not mapM_ ? hm what _is_ the monad...
22:08:20 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Client Quit).
22:08:28 <elliott> it's definitely meant to be mapM_
22:08:33 <elliott> formatLines :: [Line] -> Html
22:08:33 <elliott> formatLines = (table .) . mapM_ $ \(Line timestamp origin message) -> do
22:08:33 <elliott> td $ time "HH:MM:SS"--timestamp
22:08:33 <elliott> td $ formatLine origin message
22:08:55 <elliott> oerjan: all the functions in it take Html actions themselves as arguments, so it's a bit confusing
22:09:07 <elliott> oerjan: in fact IIRC it isn't even a proper monad, only applicative, but they have the instance so you can use do notation
22:09:11 <elliott> but don't quote me on that
22:09:18 <elliott> it also uses OverloadedStrings
22:09:21 <elliott> which is why that literal is in there
22:10:55 <nddrylliog> "* Concatenate the top element of the stack to the end of the second element of the stack." <- so huh.. it mutates the second element of the stack or it pushes the result of the concatenation?
22:11:07 <elliott> nddrylliog: let [] enclose a stack member
22:11:11 <elliott> nddrylliog: [abc][def]... -> [abcdef]...
22:11:17 <elliott> so e.g. if the full stack is
22:11:22 <oerjan> nddrylliog: no mutation needed in underload ever
22:11:24 <nddrylliog> oh, okay so pop both and push the result
22:11:33 <elliott> nddrylliog: or equivalently, pop the top one
22:11:36 <elliott> and then mutate the new top one
22:11:40 <elliott> by putting the one you popped in front
22:11:47 <elliott> nddrylliog: but that's just an obvious optimisation, your compiler does that, right?
22:12:09 <nddrylliog> haha, of course - but what doesn't ghc do?
22:12:16 <Sgeo> nddrylliog, what language?
22:12:20 <elliott> nddrylliog: dependent types!
22:12:27 <elliott> Sgeo: nddrylliog is the guy who made ooc.
22:12:50 <nddrylliog> elliott: that was more of a rhetorical question
22:12:59 <nddrylliog> oklofok: OH YEAH NOBODY MADE THAT JOKE BEFORE
22:13:06 <elliott> 11.01.08:23:50:04 <Sgeo> Now I'm looking at ooc
22:13:06 <elliott> 11.01.08:23:56:56 <Sgeo> I think ooc has more marketers than program language designers
22:13:16 <elliott> nddrylliog: i corrupt everyone
22:13:29 <elliott> ooc is a pretty terrible name, gotta say :D
22:13:47 <oklofok> erm is it like a real language?
22:13:57 <elliott> oklofok: real-ish! http://ooc-lang.org/
22:13:58 <Sgeo> Can I blame your webmaster for not having a coherent way to determine in which order to read the pages in your tutorial?
22:14:00 <nddrylliog> say what you will, we have the top google spot for "ooc". That's pretty epic if you ask me
22:14:01 <elliott> it's one of those fancy new languages
22:14:08 <elliott> nddrylliog: i have the top google spot for diughsfkjsrthre
22:14:23 <nddrylliog> elliott: ... it's not a TLA, you jerk.
22:14:23 <oklofok> we have the top one for vjn
22:14:52 <elliott> SO MUCH UNEXPLORED TERRITORY
22:15:04 <nddrylliog> abbreviations.com has the top spot for vjn and nqk
22:15:05 <Sgeo> http://ooc-lang.org/guide/cool.html "jump to..." that's great
22:15:08 <elliott> 11.01.20:10:37:27 <Sgeo> Oh, ooc
22:15:08 <elliott> 11.01.20:16:55:20 <Sgeo> How do I keep from being bored while looking at ooc?
22:15:14 <Sgeo> I have no idea where to jump to
22:15:18 <elliott> oklofok: vjn is #3 for vjn here
22:15:26 <oklofok> alright, just in finland then
22:15:33 <elliott> Sgeo: that's just a rocco clone
22:15:43 <oklofok> but the page hasn't been updated in years, maybe it once was #1 everywhere.
22:15:44 <elliott> the jump to menu looks fine to me
22:15:49 <elliott> this is obviously not a manual, it's a tutorial
22:15:52 <elliott> so i have no idea wtf you're complaining about
22:15:57 <Sgeo> elliott, yes, but which page do you jump to?
22:16:01 <Sgeo> What's the best order?
22:16:02 <nddrylliog> Sgeo: meh, you've been missing out on all the neat features.
22:16:03 <elliott> Sgeo: You don't, you read the thing :P
22:16:13 <oklofok> all i'm saying is top google spot requires absolutely nothing
22:16:14 <elliott> [[bash -c “curl -L http://ooc-lang.org/install.sh”]] <-- augh, stop teling people to do this :(
22:16:30 <nddrylliog> oh well, I'm tired of explaining why my webmaster and I are two different persons.
22:16:37 <elliott> nddrylliog: no no i'm sure you're identical
22:16:38 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: all the functions in it take Html actions themselves as arguments, so it's a bit confusing <-- hm? wouldn't that require it to be simply type HTML a = Action -> a, afaict you couldn't even wrap a in anything more and get a Monad instance
22:16:43 <Sgeo> nddrylliog, what should I read then?
22:16:44 <nddrylliog> I'm guilty for the compiler and the language sucking - mostly. Not the rest
22:16:55 <nddrylliog> Sgeo: my underload interpreter as soon as it's finished
22:16:57 <elliott> nddrylliog: but i need _someone_ to blame
22:17:06 <elliott> oerjan: "td :: Html -> Html"
22:17:10 <elliott> oerjan: I think Html is like HtmlMonad () or something
22:17:18 <elliott> nddrylliog: yeah ok. is it invisible?
22:17:50 <Sgeo> elliott, what's wrong with the curl, other than running potentially untrusted code (which you'd end up doing anyway without something so direct)
22:18:01 <elliott> Sgeo: the latter... ok so the whole compiler is untrusted code
22:18:10 <elliott> but changing one file in a website to rm -rf
22:18:14 <elliott> vs., say, hacking into github
22:18:19 <elliott> dunno it just rubs me the wrong way
22:19:11 <nddrylliog> elliott: nope, it's right there http://www.flickr.com/photos/cv47al/4337354455/
22:19:19 <oklofok> is it the solution to my problems
22:19:28 <elliott> oklofok: break your heart with mutability
22:19:30 <Sgeo> I think it's supposed to be a good compiled language
22:19:44 <nddrylliog> answers to all questions about ooc: No. ooc is the answer to nothing. I'm not marketing it anymore, and I never will be. I'm just having fun with it and figuring out what to implement next.
22:19:47 <elliott> and why aren't you using haskell
22:20:17 <Sgeo> What's concurrency like in ooc?
22:20:28 <oklofok> nddrylliog: that answers most of my questions, thanks
22:20:41 <nddrylliog> Sgeo: well. I'm pretty proud of what's going on in http://github.com/nddrylliog/oc
22:20:48 <nddrylliog> Sgeo: ie threads + coroutines = pretty neat.
22:20:54 <nddrylliog> Sgeo: but yeah, one could dream of much better.
22:21:06 <nddrylliog> Sgeo: mostly, mutability and side-effects make it pretty hard to go beyond that
22:21:23 <elliott> well see in haskell we do concurrency automatically! well not really but the research is vaguely promising.
22:21:32 <elliott> (I'm not a Haskell fan I just play one on IRC)
22:22:03 * Sgeo still wants to learn Alice ML
22:22:08 <oerjan> elliott: what i mean is in order for (table .) $ mapM_ $ ... to even _type_ the monad used has to be _literally_ the (e ->) monad
22:22:41 <nddrylliog> elliott: "The research is promising" HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHahahahaha. Sorry
22:23:20 <nddrylliog> elliott: but yeah, sure, chose your poison. STM or Actors, whatever.
22:23:37 <nddrylliog> oh. I missed the "vaguely". Now it all makes sense.
22:23:37 <elliott> nddrylliog: actually there were some recent advances in automatic parallelisation
22:23:44 <elliott> oerjan: well i didn't _test_ it
22:23:52 <elliott> oerjan: you tell nddrylliog, you're the one who told me that the research seemed promising, vaguely :D
22:24:16 <Sgeo> Why is SML a requirement for learning Alice ML?
22:25:46 <oerjan> elliott: well it was obviously hearsay even as i was saying it
22:25:49 * Sgeo stumbles onto some criticism of Scala
22:26:01 <Sgeo> That comes down to "Most people aren't smart enough to understand it!"
22:26:07 * Sgeo suddenly interests
22:26:13 <oerjan> Sgeo: um isn't Alice ML a _superset_ of SML, or something?
22:26:34 <Sgeo> oerjan, I still want a tutorial that assumes no prior knowledge of SML
22:26:52 <fizzie> Just paste it after a SML tutorial.
22:26:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNkvASxfEWQ&feature=channel
22:27:26 <nddrylliog> most people aren't smart enough to hate Scala
22:27:30 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: well i didn't _test_ it <-- ok so theoretically we don't know yet that it's even well-typed? :D
22:27:36 <j-invariant> 22:35 < nddrylliog> most people aren't smart enough to hate Scala
22:27:46 <nddrylliog> j-invariant: trust me, I know what I'm talking about ....
22:27:53 <Sgeo> nddrylliog, may I ask?
22:28:03 <nddrylliog> ate enough of it, and I study where it's been conceived.
22:28:15 <nddrylliog> so I'm in a bit of a Scala overload. And really, there's not much to be proud of.
22:29:14 <Sgeo> That's... not actually a criticism of the language, just of the main implementation
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22:29:43 <nddrylliog> Sgeo: right. The language isn't pretty either. They like to have 6 different syntaxes for everything
22:30:06 <nddrylliog> Sgeo: they also like to pretend non-nullability. And lack of side-effects. And they like to care about Big O notation even though their main impl. is slow as fuck.
22:30:49 <nddrylliog> Sgeo: Scala is the kitchen-sink of the 00s like C++ was the one of the 80s
22:31:01 <nddrylliog> there's so much stuff that you can actually pick a sane subset and make good stuff with it
22:31:08 <Sgeo> I recently asked in #scala if it was worth playing about even though I don't care one whit about JVM compatibility or Java libraries. They said no, due to how many concessions it made for Java compatibility
22:31:12 <nddrylliog> and lots of people will eventually use it.
22:31:35 <nddrylliog> Sgeo: haha :) java also made a lot of concessions for java compatibility (can you believe that erasure is *still* an ongoing debate? dear God.)
22:31:47 <elliott> nddrylliog: It's crazy how much anti-academic sentiment there is, especially when people dismiss languages that aren't hodge-podges of features kludged to work with each other as being impractically "purist"
22:32:19 <nddrylliog> elliott: ooh, I plead guilty. I've been anti-academic from the start, but I'm getting better. Mostly I fell in love with Scheme when I was forced to learn it.
22:32:55 <nddrylliog> j-invariant: I'll let Stephen Morley explain it better than me http://code.stephenmorley.org/articles/java-generics-type-erasure/
22:32:59 <Sgeo> Java can't tell a Something<OneType> from a Something<OtherType> at runtime, I think
22:33:04 <Sgeo> I may be mistaken
22:33:16 <nddrylliog> Sgeo: that's a side-effect of type erasure, yeah.
22:33:28 <zzo38> What six different syntax do you have for everything?
22:33:30 <nddrylliog> mostly it does all checks at runtime and stores no runtime information on generic specialization
22:33:37 <nddrylliog> so you don't have generic introspection, for example
22:33:49 <nddrylliog> zzo38: I was thinking mostly about function definition (ie. def vs () =>, etc.)
22:34:03 <j-invariant> nddrylliog: ah that, wasn't there a type soundness error in there at some point
22:34:06 <nddrylliog> zzo38: apart from that, humm () vs Tuple(), the clusterfuck of operators they have, etc.
22:34:16 <nddrylliog> j-invariant: couldn't tell but it seems likely
22:36:26 <zzo38> nddrylliog: I like the MSE function syntax, just put the function codes inside of { } I also like the Forth syntax that you can just make up your own syntax if the one it has is insufficient for your use. C doesn't have those kind of function syntax, but such things doesn't belong in C and C is good with what it does have.
22:36:58 <Sgeo> Maybe I should look into Factor again
22:37:19 <Sgeo> Although its standard libraries seem to be a hodgepodge of ideas
22:37:30 <Sgeo> I think it has 20 million different notions of concurrency
22:37:36 <zzo38> nddrylliog: In what program language is Blah() vs new Blah()?
22:37:36 <nddrylliog> Sgeo: disclaimer: the Factor guys drink a *lot*.
22:37:54 <Sgeo> Huh, shutup's dead.
22:37:59 <Sgeo> nddrylliog, hm?
22:38:13 <Sgeo> nddrylliog, I'm curious as to your opinion of Newspeak.
22:38:15 <nddrylliog> zzo38: Scala - sometimes you create objects with Blah(), sometimes with new Blah(), may have something to do with case classes, maybe not, I don't even want to look it up
22:38:24 <elliott> nddrylliog: anyone who comes into contact with Sgeo turns to heavy drinking, I feel
22:38:31 <elliott> maybe that's just me though
22:38:48 <nddrylliog> Sgeo: re "hm?": at the emerging languages conf., after the talks we went out for a drinks and all the Factor team was on heavy liquor
22:39:19 <nddrylliog> Sgeo: re "Newspeak": awesome ideas, sounded very pure, I meant to try it for real one day, and I love the guy (except his taste for arts)
22:39:22 <zzo38> They drink a *lot* of air, blood, poison, acid, alkaline, eyes, tears, and dihydrogen monoxide, and also LSD and beer and wine.
22:39:51 * Sgeo also has an eye towards Seph
22:39:54 <elliott> nddrylliog: i read a post where gilad bracha claimed we should switch from filesystems to object databases because it allows for copy protection
22:40:11 <Sgeo> Have I met a language I didn't like?
22:40:21 <elliott> which is possibly like the biggest gap between the goodness of the justification (extremely bad) and the goodness of the idea (very good) I've ever seen
22:40:36 <elliott> `addquote <nddrylliog> Sgeo: re "hm?": at the emerging languages conf., after the talks we went out for a drinks and all the Factor team was on heavy liquor
22:40:47 <zzo38> nddrylliog: Why do you have to use "new" sometimes, but not always? (I know how it works in JavaScript, I don't know how it works in Scala)
22:40:48 <HackEgo> 278) <nddrylliog> Sgeo: re "hm?": at the emerging languages conf., after the talks we went out for a drinks and all the Factor team was on heavy liquor
22:41:29 <Sgeo> I'm tempted to list languages and see nddrylliog's reaction
22:41:39 <elliott> nddrylliog is now a celebrity to sgeo!
22:42:59 <Sgeo> Slate, Atomo, Newspeak, Factor, Ioke, Seph, Io, Ruby, Erlang, Falcon, Oz, Alice ML\
22:43:11 <elliott> that's too many languages for 10:51 pm in the morning
22:44:10 <elliott> HE HASN'T EVEN ANSWERED YET :D
22:44:50 <Sgeo> I'm forgetting some
22:44:56 <nddrylliog> Slate: I tend to be doubtful when it comes to project with a *blog* for a homepage. But I'm pretty sure I know Brian from somewhere, so I wont criticize his overselling ("OMG SMALLTALK BUT USABLE")
22:45:09 <elliott> nddrylliog: slate used to have a real homepage
22:45:14 <elliott> i think they switched it out of laziness recently
22:45:18 <elliott> since it was dead for like
22:45:22 <elliott> it's a boring language tho
22:45:36 <nddrylliog> Newspeak: nested classes ftw. Die, packages, static classes, and other artificial wrappings
22:45:37 <elliott> the Atomo guy is nice enough, he's a haskell dude, but yeah, concur with nddrylliog
22:45:47 <elliott> *dependent records ftw. *Die, classes,
22:46:05 <elliott> i'm just going to publish my opinions as diffs to nddrylliog's
22:46:42 <nddrylliog> Factor: Half the time I can't quite understand what they're saying - either because they put *so much effort* into writing a kick-ass implementation of a... stack-based programming language, or because of the Whisky.
22:47:19 <elliott> Also, they prefer "concatenative".
22:47:32 <elliott> The only non-concatenative stack-based language is, like, Forth :P
22:47:35 <nddrylliog> Ioke: Ola has a nice gothic look, that's what i remember mostly about it. Also, Steve is a bit pissed off that this rip-off of Io got basically more attention than the original but he doesn't like to admit it. I'm more excited by...
22:47:40 <elliott> And Forth is very different to e.g. Factor.
22:47:41 <nddrylliog> Seph: buzz buzz buzz. Waiting to see actual stuff.
22:47:43 <zzo38> I think "new" command in JavaScript should be a function like: New=function(x)(function(){var y={__proto__:x.prototype};x.apply(y,arguments);return y;})
22:47:54 <elliott> nddrylliog: Seph looks interesting in that it's immutable! >_>
22:48:04 <elliott> But yeah, Ioke is like Io: The JVM Edition!
22:48:23 <Sgeo> With some functions that Io shold have come with
22:48:31 <elliott> Although Io lacks things such as any documentation at all.
22:48:44 <nddrylliog> Io: I'm absolutely in love with both the minimalism and Mr. Dekorte (except for his stance on existentionalism)
22:48:57 <elliott> It was true as of two or so years ago.
22:49:02 <nddrylliog> elliott: you need a good spank and a recent visit on iolanguage.com
22:49:06 <elliott> I seem to recall Array and String were barren of functions.
22:49:33 <elliott> Io is like Libertarianism: The Language... but maybe I just say that because I know Steve is one :P
22:50:02 <Sgeo> Io's documentation is ... annoying to navigate sometimes
22:50:05 <nddrylliog> Ruby: I'm absolutely admirative of everyone involved in maintaining 6 implementations of this language. I'm very jealous of their DSLs, and the community is all-around awesome (once you get over the whole rockstar thing). But they're facing the hard challenge that's evolution - as is Python & co
22:50:31 <zzo38> Is it possible to make directory in git that some users can only send files into that directory?
22:50:36 <Sgeo> Python's probably the language I have the most experience with
22:50:37 <elliott> You forgot to mention the part where the Ruby language itself is a gigantic mess :P
22:50:45 <nddrylliog> Erlang: sounds old and killed, lots of good have been said about it but I'm not too impressed so far. Also, I try not to look at its syntax when I feel dizzy
22:50:47 <elliott> ...and also that the Ruby community is very douchebaggy thanks to Rails.
22:51:09 <elliott> Erlang's syntax is what happens when you like Prolog and you want to make a language but it's nothing like Prolog but you'd be betraying the cause if you used another syntax!
22:51:11 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, ooh, whining! I love whining about things I can't be bothered with!
22:51:35 <Phantom_Hoover> It makes me feel superior for not having bothered with them!
22:51:37 <nddrylliog> Falcon: heard so much hate about it that I didn't even bother looking seriously into it. Looks like it sinks even *more* features than Scala, except it's not done by academics
22:51:43 <elliott> I swear my brain has a natural supply of liquor.
22:51:49 <elliott> Falcon is the worst language ever :D
22:52:02 <elliott> ah the endless days of fun me and cpressey had mocking it
22:52:04 <Phantom_Hoover> nddrylliog, elliott and I trolled #falcon a while ago.
22:52:06 <zzo38> I have not had much experience with Python but I did a little bit.
22:52:08 <elliott> nddrylliog: have you seen how Falcon does monads
22:52:14 <elliott> nddrylliog: every value has an "out of bound" value which is, I think, a bit
22:52:20 <elliott> and that's used to implement monads
22:52:27 <nddrylliog> Alice ML: sounds like an educational program poorly written in JDK - but it's actually not. I should take a look at it someday
22:52:41 <Phantom_Hoover> It failed because there are no language ideas stupid enough that johnnymind wouldn't add them.
22:52:42 <elliott> I seem to remember suggesting some hideously complicated, useless feature and they started thinking about how to make it work :P
22:52:43 <nddrylliog> Nimrod: a compromise between Atomo and Falcon, probably
22:52:44 <Sgeo> nddrylliog, I think that's the wrong ALICE
22:53:18 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, wrong one
22:53:28 <elliott> The fact that Nimrod has foo_bar and fooBar and FooBAR as equivalent identifiers saved me from looking at the rest of the language, as I already had confirmation that the author was seriously confused.
22:53:41 <nddrylliog> ah bah, by the looks of the Alice homepage, it's' no longer interesting whether a language is Turing-complete. Now people look for Gtk+-complete languages.
22:54:01 <elliott> was TCness ever interesting outside of esoteric circles?
22:54:09 <nddrylliog> elliott: and I thought it would be an ooc concurrent x_x
22:54:16 <elliott> it's hard to design a general purpose language that isn't TC
22:54:44 <nddrylliog> elliott: %s/concurrent/competitor/, sorry
22:54:49 <elliott> but bare, standalone C isn't, I don't _think_
22:54:56 <oerjan> <nddrylliog> elliott: you need a good spank and a recent visit on iolanguage.com <-- /me thinks nddrylliog fits in very well here :D
22:54:59 <elliott> I think you can make pure C TC, but if you do that, you can't host a libc on it
22:54:59 <Phantom_Hoover> <nddrylliog> ah bah, by the looks of the Alice homepage, it's' no longer interesting whether a language is Turing-complete. Now people look for Gtk+-complete languages. ← link!
22:55:14 <elliott> for instance, consider making char a bignum
22:55:20 <elliott> and so you can address infinite memory
22:55:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: the guy who made http://ooc-lang.org/. ok clarification.
22:55:41 <elliott> the guy who made the language that that page is about.
22:56:08 <elliott> libc I think might be TC because of file io
22:56:28 <elliott> nddrylliog: more seriously though, Coq
22:56:31 <elliott> ok that's not quite mainstream
22:56:34 <zzo38> Does libc have file inode numbers or only POSIX does?
22:56:36 <elliott> but you can't write a non-terminating program in it
22:56:55 <oklofok> coq is the language where everything is a proof
22:57:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Have I ever mentioned my insane export-based module system here?
22:57:02 <elliott> everything is an object? no, a proof!
22:57:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i'm scared
22:57:10 <nddrylliog> elliott: Wiki says Coq is a proof helper or something, not really a programming language imho
22:57:15 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I love good module systems!
22:57:20 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: I don't know. Mention it if you want to.
22:57:22 <elliott> nddrylliog: it is a language
22:57:23 <j-invariant> nddrylliog: what is a programming language?
22:57:31 <elliott> nddrylliog: there are some haskell libraries written and verified in Coq
22:57:33 <elliott> and then exported to Haskell
22:57:39 <elliott> nddrylliog: you can write plain recursive functions in it
22:57:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Basically, export <symbol> <module> makes <symbol> visible in <module>/
22:57:49 <elliott> nddrylliog: In fact, OCaml was invented to implement Coq (seriously!)
22:57:55 <Phantom_Hoover> This is the *only* way of doing anything with modules.
22:57:56 <nddrylliog> elliott: oh so it's a bit like untyped lambda calculus?
22:58:03 <elliott> nddrylliog: dependently-typed lambda calculus
22:58:24 <Phantom_Hoover> So importing stdio would have to be something like export stdioImports stdio.
22:58:36 <elliott> nddrylliog: btw the inventor of underload is ais523 in here, more commonly known for http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/solved.html (ok, for strange definitions of "common")
22:58:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Where stdioImports is something that's executed by stdio.
22:59:02 <nddrylliog> are you kidding? wolfram is sooo mainstream. and WOW.
22:59:19 <nddrylliog> that explains why Underload is sane at all :)
22:59:30 <elliott> nddrylliog: Wolfram is _unfortunately_ mainstream :P
22:59:52 <elliott> nddrylliog: Apparently the Wolfram guys translated his Perl code to Mathematica, and when he tested it, Mathematica segfaulted
23:00:15 <nddrylliog> elliott: see, Mathematica sucks too :)
23:00:23 <elliott> nddrylliog: everyone knows THAT :P
23:00:39 <Sgeo> MORE LANGUAGES COME TO MY MIND
23:00:46 <elliott> http://blog.wolfram.com/?year=2007&monthnum=10&name=the-prize-is-won-the-simplest-universal-turing-machine-is-proved <-- this is quite amusing, "haha i'm right! i knew it! i'm such a genius! p.s. thanks to this guy who proved that i was a genius, did I mention I'm a genius"
23:00:47 <oerjan> <elliott> The fact that Nimrod has foo_bar and fooBar and FooBAR as equivalent identifiers [...] <-- they _totally_ stole that from Reaper. the fact that reaper is neither finished specced nor implemented is _totally_ irrelevant.
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23:01:00 <elliott> OH AND OERJAN IS KNOWN AS THAT GUY WHO WROTE LIKE HALF OF THE HASKELL 98 REPORT
23:01:40 <elliott> i like the idea of forcing other modules to import things
23:01:53 <nddrylliog> Phantom_Hoover: that line sounds like you should pull out a lightsaber or something right after
23:01:53 <Phantom_Hoover> (I'm hoping Sgeo will use my module system due to him not being able to resist bad novelties.)
23:02:45 <nddrylliog> Phantom_Hoover: why? it has side-effects?
23:02:47 * Sgeo exports sabre to Phantom_Hoover
23:03:18 <elliott> nddrylliog: Phantom_Hoover can fence, don't fuck with his text!
23:03:22 <oerjan> <nddrylliog> gave away my origins, dammit. <-- hey a norwegian might make that error!
23:03:43 <nddrylliog> oerjan: ooh. That's right, I'm totally Norwegian.
23:03:52 -!- Yonkie has quit.
23:03:54 <elliott> you asked but didn't answer :D
23:04:03 -!- Yonkie has joined.
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23:04:23 <nddrylliog> from France, studying in Switzerland, got both nationalities.
23:04:53 <elliott> cool... apart from the french part, I think I have to hate you for that
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23:05:10 <elliott> nothing personal, it's just that you're all smelly and unwashed
23:05:40 <Sgeo> Going to watch more DS9
23:05:49 <Sgeo> I think I like where this season is going
23:05:57 * Phantom_Hoover remembers that Scottish people are meant to like the French.
23:06:08 * zzo38 pulls out a lightbulb
23:09:01 <nddrylliog> elliott: oh really? that's false, now that exams are over
23:09:24 <elliott> although I guess you might have reformed, since Switzerland is probably pretty clean
23:09:28 <elliott> might be socially unacceptable not to be and such
23:09:51 <oerjan> <nddrylliog> oerjan: are you into leather? <-- er what, no. is that because i approved of your spanking comment?
23:10:09 <elliott> i think it was because you wrote half of the haskell 98 report :D
23:10:32 <Sgeo> ....the Factor people actually criticise Joy for an insufficient module system?
23:10:33 <oerjan> <elliott> isn't that right oerjan <-- well with enough orders of magnitude correction...
23:10:35 <Sgeo> Pot, meet kettle
23:10:44 <elliott> lol @ criticising Joy for anything
23:10:46 <nddrylliog> oerjan: nope, because you're into Haskell
23:11:03 <elliott> nddrylliog: he wouldn't be accepted as a Modern Haskeller, he uses /Hugs/ for chrissakes
23:11:16 <elliott> Hugs hasn't been maintained for half a decade, I think
23:11:23 <elliott> last release 2006 but it was dormant before that
23:11:26 <nddrylliog> "Primarily for teaching", says the Googles.
23:11:29 <Sgeo> elliott, it's not that they're criticising Joy, it's that Factor has some severe deficiencies
23:11:41 <Sgeo> http://concatenative.org/wiki/view/Factor/FAQ/Why%3F
23:11:48 <nddrylliog> Ooh yeah, I like the academic world - dump awesome research proof-of-concept on an ftp somewhere and forget about it
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23:12:22 <elliott> nddrylliog: Hugs wasn't really dumped :P
23:12:35 <elliott> last releases were November 2003, March 2005, May 2006, September 2006
23:12:37 <nddrylliog> elliott: it was a consensual break-up?
23:12:37 <elliott> then GHC took over the owrld
23:12:48 <elliott> nddrylliog: more like GHC murdered hugs
23:13:06 <nddrylliog> that haskell compiler.. forgot its name now
23:13:49 <nddrylliog> oh right http://lhc-compiler.blogspot.com/
23:14:24 <elliott> lhc is like mlton for haskell i think
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23:15:20 <nddrylliog> I have no idea, but their blog articles are freaking awesome. To the point that I bookmarked it. (I never bookmark anything - much less browse my bookmarks)
23:15:39 <nddrylliog> approx. of the same level as the Factor blog
23:15:55 <oerjan> <nddrylliog> oerjan: nope, because you're into Haskell <-- elliott is seriously exaggerating, i just sent in some typo corrections while i was reading the haskell report. although haskell _is_ the language i use on most of the rare occasions when i actually program
23:16:06 <elliott> no no oerjan wrote 3/4s of the report
23:16:30 <elliott> haskell 98 was a mistake anyway, they removed monad comprehensions :(
23:16:37 <elliott> and that's why nobody comprehends monads nowadays
23:17:02 * elliott links http://arcanesentiment.blogspot.com/ since it's another blogspot blog worth bookmarking along with the lhc one and factor's :P
23:17:18 <elliott> it's not a non sequitur, it's just a really complicated sequitur!
23:18:56 <oerjan> <elliott> oh that was a good one <-- this is awkward, i don't think i've made a single pun today
23:19:11 <oerjan> nddrylliog might get the completely wrong impression
23:19:19 <elliott> yeah he might think you're like 50, not 40
23:19:30 * oerjan swats elliott -----###
23:19:33 <elliott> have you considered getting checked for alzheimer's
23:19:42 <elliott> (or do you keep forgetting :D)
23:19:42 <oerjan> elliott: i keep forgetting
23:20:30 <zzo38> Do you think some Japanese guy might have a implementation of AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! programming language?
23:21:01 <oerjan> elliott: it hardly hurts for insanity
23:21:29 <zzo38> elliott: I saw the scans of pages of some Japanese book mentioning this programming language.
23:21:46 <oerjan> it was iirc a japanese guy who found out how to program malbolge
23:22:00 <elliott> I still need to write the Esoteric Book
23:22:30 <zzo38> Yes really there is some Japanese book mentioning AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! programming language.
23:22:53 <zzo38> elliott: What is the Esoteric Book?
23:23:18 <zzo38> Can you print one of the pages upsidedown by mistake?
23:23:25 <zzo38> (Or by deliberate?)
23:23:25 <oerjan> zzo38: just some advice, when you get so famous that the japanese ask you to come to one of their tv shows, DON'T ACCEPT
23:23:57 <oerjan> doing it by mistake might be _more_ impressive, at least now
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23:24:48 <zzo38> oerjan: Whether or not I accept is my own choice; usually I do not accept to come on to some TV show.
23:25:35 <oerjan> zzo38: it's just that japanese tv shows can be _uncomfortable_, i hear
23:25:48 <zzo38> elliott: In this case, "usually" meaning, if it ever happens, but it never does and probably never will. I have no intention to be on some TV show, anyways.
23:26:24 <nddrylliog> rewb if you prefer, but that's ooc folklore
23:26:31 <oerjan> ablative singular of res
23:26:31 <zzo38> But if I *do* go on some Japanese TV show, I should learn better speaking Japanese!!
23:26:47 <nddrylliog> zzo38: you are invited to TV shows? what have you done?
23:27:00 <elliott> "meaning, if it ever happens, but it never does"
23:27:05 <zzo38> nddrylliog: I hever have been. And I probably never will. And I do not intend to.
23:27:28 <oerjan> nddrylliog: it's all my fault, as usual
23:28:13 <zzo38> But some Japanese people have written things related to things I have made. (This has happened more than once.)
23:28:17 <nddrylliog> so my Underload interpreter is almost finished.
23:28:24 <oklofok> http://blog.wolfram.com/?year=2007&monthnum=10&name=the-prize-is-won-the-simplest-universal-turing-machine-is-proved <<< god i hate this man
23:28:35 <nddrylliog> And by finished I mean ready for inclusion in the next Ubuntu, leading to a riot of the masses and its dubious cover-up
23:28:48 <nddrylliog> any likeliness with PulseAudio is pure speculation
23:28:50 <elliott> oklofok: he's the worst :P
23:29:03 <elliott> nddrylliog: the solution to a deficient layer of abstraction is another layer on top of that!
23:29:35 <zzo38> Should I write Underload interpreter in TeXnicard? I expect it is probably possible.
23:29:44 <oerjan> nddrylliog: make sure to test it on my rule 110 interpreter. then you can be vaguely wolfram-related too!
23:30:25 <elliott> oerjan: it's not on the wiki though i don't think
23:30:34 <oerjan> elliott: um sure it is?
23:31:14 <nddrylliog> that's not the if there's no binary porn of it, reinstall gentoo, right?
23:31:35 <zzo38> Rule 110 is the cellular automata rule.
23:31:48 <zzo38> It is mentioned on Wikipedia.
23:32:04 <oerjan> although you could easily modify the interpreter to do wolfram's rule 34 instead
23:32:10 <oklofok> what's the other one suspected to be "universal" that has those weird mushrooms
23:32:27 <elliott> um like uh what was the number again
23:32:36 <oklofok> 30 is the really random one
23:32:43 <nddrylliog> so huh now that we're acquaintances, is Banana Scheme actually possible in this universe?
23:32:53 <oerjan> nddrylliog: probably not
23:32:55 <nddrylliog> cause I really like the article but I can't figure out its level of seriousness
23:33:17 <oerjan> nddrylliog: it's mathematically serious, just not physically possible
23:33:18 <nddrylliog> I'm particularly fond of the "our Scheme would require a transfinite ordinal datatype - not a big deal." part
23:33:25 <elliott> nddrylliog: it's serious theoretical comp sci and an utter joke of software engineering :P
23:33:44 <nddrylliog> elliott: as is the whole theoretical computer science, right? :D
23:33:45 <oklofok> it's just very ininteresting from 00000100000
23:33:49 <elliott> nddrylliog: well it _might_ be possible that there are super-turing computers in this universe.
23:33:56 <elliott> nddrylliog: (the opposite of the Church-Turing thesis)
23:33:59 <elliott> nddrylliog: but it seems unlikely
23:34:16 <elliott> nddrylliog: there aren't, pretty much
23:34:16 <oerjan> oklofok: 54, hm wasn't that from a different numbering scheme, not elementary ones
23:34:19 <elliott> since there are no Turing machines
23:34:26 <elliott> nddrylliog: basically "is possible" is really ill-defined
23:34:29 <nddrylliog> maybe Turing machines are just an uncomfortable basis for computing
23:34:31 <elliott> Brainfuck isn't even possible in its TC form!
23:34:41 <elliott> because there are no machines with infinite memory, that we know of :P
23:35:03 <oklofok> http://uncomp.uwe.ac.uk/genaro/Rule54.html
23:35:05 <nddrylliog> reminds me of that epic prank http://www.supersimplestorageservice.com/
23:35:08 <elliott> but no, you will never see a proper Banana Scheme interp.
23:36:42 <oerjan> <nddrylliog> I'm particularly fond of the "our Scheme would require a transfinite ordinal datatype - not a big deal." part <-- it's easy to implement some of them, like < epsilon
23:37:08 <elliott> you don't even really need that
23:37:24 <elliott> in Scheme-omega+1 or 1+omega or whatever it's called
23:37:27 <elliott> you just need "omega" to be a value
23:37:31 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> nddrylliog: it's serious theoretical comp sci and an utter joke of software engineering :P ← yeah, but SE is stupid and only idiots do it in favour of theoretical CS.
23:37:37 <elliott> ok when you get beyond that and need infinite of them, but jofgsfhjkl,hlkfjhdklhj what am i saying
23:37:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i meant software engineering as the doing things part, not as a subject
23:37:50 <oerjan> oklofok: ok i might be thinking of another one then
23:38:00 <elliott> software engineering could be a good field but it's being done badly
23:38:56 <Phantom_Hoover> I was under the impression that SE was for those antiïntellectual "CS is for ACADEMICS IN IVORY TOWERS" programmers.
23:39:12 <Phantom_Hoover> You know, the ones who are the reason most programs suck.
23:39:24 <nddrylliog> Phantom_Hoover: right :) Guilty as trolled.
23:39:44 <nddrylliog> elliott: the whole problem is to have something super-turing complete in the first place
23:39:59 <Phantom_Hoover> nddrylliog, super-TC computers are actually surprisingly plausible.
23:40:12 <elliott> For strange definitions of plausible.
23:40:31 <oklofok> some believe in an omnipotent entity above the clouds
23:40:35 * nddrylliog tries to remove the mental image of Super-Turing from his mind.
23:40:41 <nddrylliog> like he got his super powers from the apple or something
23:40:58 <elliott> why would you ever try and remove that image
23:41:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it Gödel? Is it Alonzo Church? No, it's SUPERTURING!
23:41:50 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: http://codu.org/tmp/silly.ogg Forget you've already heard this.
23:42:01 <Gregor> It is now SuperTuring's theme.
23:42:09 <Gregor> It's pretty damn epic :P
23:42:16 <oklofok> Gregor: what did you use to make that stuff again
23:42:25 <nddrylliog> Gregor: you're surprisingly responsive
23:42:35 <Gregor> nddrylliog: Should I not be?
23:43:04 <nddrylliog> Gregor: it makes me reconsider my whole conception of an idler
23:43:22 <Gregor> nddrylliog: ... I am not in any sense an idler.
23:43:35 <elliott> Of all the idlers in this channel, you pick the guy who isn't an idler.
23:43:40 <nddrylliog> Gregor: forgive me my rapid and equally bad assumption
23:43:44 <elliott> mtve, now he's an expert idler.
23:44:18 <oerjan> `addquote <elliott> mtve, now he's an expert idler. <nddrylliog> mtve: kitty kitty kitty
23:44:19 <HackEgo> 279) <elliott> mtve, now he's an expert idler. <nddrylliog> mtve: kitty kitty kitty
23:44:22 * nddrylliog gives a snug look to the white rabbit with a jacket
23:44:28 <zzo38> Make music with seven and a half tones in one octave
23:45:14 <elliott> bet it's SLOW because your language is SLOW
23:45:35 <oklofok> nddrylliog: how come it took you this long to make underload work? i bet i could do it faster in clue
23:45:41 <oerjan> the violence is inherent in the system
23:45:45 <elliott> yeah clue is pretty bestest
23:45:50 <elliott> perhaps even the most bestest
23:45:53 <nddrylliog> oklofok: because I'm trying to write *really awful* code and it takes time
23:45:55 <oklofok> in fact i would've finished it hours ago, and it might even have compiled by now.
23:46:41 <oklofok> nddrylliog: oh well, then i guess we couldn't really compete, as you can't write bad code in clue
23:46:42 <oerjan> nddrylliog: but in clue you cannot _help_ but write awful code
23:46:56 <oklofok> so you can't write bad code
23:47:21 <oklofok> see in clue, you don't have to program, you just need to give a few hints and the high-iq compiler will do all the work for ya.
23:47:39 <oerjan> but does clue even have IO
23:47:45 <elliott> but you can call functions using luatre
23:47:54 <oklofok> well no, and you can't actually call any of your functions
23:48:13 <elliott> oerjan: my expression language for clue
23:48:17 <elliott> also the name of the bot that runs it
23:48:29 <oklofok> yeah so you can test the programs without directly calling the python functions given by the compiler
23:48:30 <elliott> it's basically just function name(arg arg arg ...)
23:48:49 <oklofok> btw elliott, parenthesis are perfectly legal in names... :D
23:49:49 <oklofok> i didn't do anything today, shit :DS
23:50:15 <oklofok> i knew it, the minute i open irc after a week of offlinity, i'm stuck forever
23:51:31 <nddrylliog> ndd@naku:~/Dev/underlood$ echo '(()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^):^' | ./underlood ~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^ You dun goofed: Trying to pop an empty stack.
23:52:00 <oklofok> you have to start over, since you even typoed the name
23:52:29 <oerjan> ^ul (()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^):^
23:52:29 <fungot> */*/**/***/*****/********/*************/*********************/**********************************/*******************************************************/*****************************************************************************************/********************************************************************************* ...too much output!
23:52:48 <oklofok> wow that's one helluva fast growing sequence
23:53:15 <oerjan> of course, you already said so earlier today
23:53:17 <oklofok> it's like hey i'm here NO I'M NOT I'M SOMEWHERE COMPLETELY ELSE
23:53:26 <nddrylliog> oklofok: right. Learn to spell everything and come back to denounce my bad plays on words.
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23:53:53 <oklofok> nddrylliog: well i can't learn to spell *everything* wait i see what you did thar haha :DDDD
23:54:40 <oerjan> MAKE ME ONE WITH EVERYTHING
23:54:59 <nddrylliog> okay, my headache migrated to my stomach. That's not a good development. I'm gonna lie down and watch Starcraft II replays while you continue make the world an esoteric-er place.
23:55:23 <oklofok> one for me, one for oerjan
23:55:29 <oklofok> but we have to split the heart
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23:55:51 <oklofok> i hear that symbol actually comes from the shape of a woman's ass
23:56:11 <oklofok> you probably meant to say that before what i just said
23:56:46 <oerjan> ...i heard the symbol comes from the shape of an ancient contraceptive seed or fruit
23:56:50 <Phantom_Hoover> oklofok, erm, given that real hearts have that general shape.
23:57:05 <nddrylliog> oh btw if anyone wants to look at funny code: https://gist.github.com/791639
23:57:23 <oklofok> i thought the heart was a random lump
23:57:52 <elliott> nddrylliog: wow this is the worst code i've ever writte
23:58:00 <oerjan> i _also_ heard that it was shaped from a _pigs_ heart because most people didn't actually know what a human heart looked like (autopsies being illegal and stuff)
23:58:14 <oklofok> elliott: yeah who write load as "lood" :D
23:58:25 <elliott> nddrylliog: that main interpreter loop is... impressive :D
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23:58:52 <nddrylliog> elliott: 25% of it is workarounds for the compiler messing up scope capture for nested closures
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23:59:30 <elliott> i gotta tell you dude, i am so not regretting ignoring ooc, sorry man :D
23:59:30 <nddrylliog> elliott: which in turns prints a shitload of warnings for "Statement with no effect"...
23:59:33 <elliott> lemme know when you get that better compiler written
23:59:41 <elliott> and also remove side-effects *shot*
23:59:51 <zzo38> How can I make permission to send git some people only some directories, in case some people are different part of the project, such as documentation, testing, templates, general notice, etc. ?