00:00:02 <elliott> pikhq I am actually making progress on Kitten so you should be happy.
00:00:19 <coppro> c) the judge is unsure about the jurisdictional issue and figures somehow issuing a TRO is correct?
00:00:27 <pikhq> Sony's lawyers are literally down the street from this court...
00:00:43 <coppro> d) the judge is planning to reject the jurisdictional challenge but hasn't written it up yet
00:00:47 <elliott> vfork_daemon_rexec.c:(.text.bb_daemonize_or_rexec+0x21): undefined reference to `close'
00:01:13 <pikhq> coppro: Incompetence or malicious ignorance is required for d.
00:01:44 <pikhq> coppro: As it currently stands, the TRO has been granted but jurisdiction may not exist.
00:02:18 <elliott> 00:11:47 <coppro> pikhq: it could be a) the judge is simply incompetent
00:02:18 <elliott> 00:11:57 <coppro> oh, it could be that
00:02:19 <elliott> 00:12:12 <coppro> c) the judge is unsure about the jurisdictional issue and figures somehow issuing a TRO is correct?
00:02:27 <elliott> pikhq: ask coppro where b went
00:02:38 <coppro> pikhq: No, d) is entirely reasonable
00:02:50 <coppro> if I as the judge was entirely sure I was going to reject the motion to dismiss
00:02:53 <coppro> but hadn't written it up
00:02:58 <coppro> I would go for the TRO still
00:03:12 <coppro> since I have alread decided I have jurisdiction
00:03:27 <pikhq> coppro: The issue is that before you reject the motion to dismiss, it is de jure entirely in question whether you have any power to grant the TRO.
00:03:38 <elliott> pikhq: how can one use -nostdinc but still get gcc internal headers?
00:03:44 <coppro> no, the power is platonice
00:04:05 <pikhq> coppro: So, courts have power in Pluto?
00:04:29 <pikhq> If you say "yes" I'm commiting xenocide.
00:04:36 <coppro> I mean that if I have jurisdiction, I have jursdiction
00:04:50 <coppro> I don't need to say "no your motion to dismiss for lack of jursidction fails" for that to be the case
00:07:24 <oerjan> pikhq: he said platonic, not plutonic. pay attention!
00:08:09 <pikhq> coppro: Also, merely rejecting the motion to dismiss for lack of jurisdiction *seems* to indicate maliciousness or incompetence to me.
00:09:56 <pikhq> coppro: One of the many, many claims here is that exercising personal jurisdiction over Mr. Hotz is unreasonable in this case, and as such the court must dismiss...
00:09:57 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
00:10:04 <pikhq> coppro: Sony has done fuck-all to address this.
00:10:22 -!- Ilari has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
00:10:37 <pikhq> http://www.scribd.com/doc/47676622/1-Defendant%E2%80%99s-Supplemental-Brief-in-Opposition-to-Plaintiff-s-Ex-Parte-Motion-for-Temptorary-Restraining-Order
00:10:47 <pikhq> http://www.scribd.com/doc/47676625/47-Plaintiffs-Reply-to-Defendant-s-Supplemental-Brief
00:13:48 <coppro> pikhq: he hasn't rejected the motion to dismiss yet, has he?
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00:20:48 <oerjan> dismiss motion to reject
00:21:30 <pikhq> coppro: Not at all.
00:21:42 <pikhq> coppro: Also "she".
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00:23:02 <elliott> pikhq: excuse me importance in -minecraft
00:23:17 <pikhq> elliott: I'm up to 21, okay?
00:23:32 <elliott> pikhq: you have to get through Survival Island too
00:23:37 <elliott> before you're up to date for this new one
00:23:52 <pikhq> elliott: I've got a 3 day weekend coming up.
00:23:59 <pikhq> Like I will every week this semester.
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00:27:36 <coppro> admittedly, the actual stuff I care about Friday ends at 11:30 am
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00:56:49 <c0w> j-invariant: seriously, what is your problem
00:57:27 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
00:57:38 <copumpkin> I'm trying to get through to j-invariant
00:58:03 <copumpkin> then jmcarthur is an idiot for silencing?
00:58:41 <elliott> j-invariant: why not just be more civil to people ...
00:58:45 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*116559cd@*.17.101.89.205.
00:59:18 <elliott> j-invariant: do you have me on ignore
00:59:46 <copumpkin> j-invariant has everyone on ignore
00:59:54 <copumpkin> as I said, IRC is a twitter substitute
01:00:17 <pikhq> ... He has *everyone* on ignore‽
01:00:19 <copumpkin> oerjan: you could've just asked me to remove it
01:00:29 <elliott> obviously me, copumpkin, augur
01:00:38 <pikhq> j-invariant: Mi ankaŭ?
01:01:08 <elliott> I think j-invariant needs some...cool down time away from IRC.
01:01:23 <copumpkin> I honestly don't want j-invariant to be silenced in #haskell. I hate banning/silencing people, especially when the behavior that led to it is pretty simple to avoid, and j-invariant seems to know enough to be fun to talk to
01:01:31 <pikhq> What the heck happened, anyways?
01:01:35 <copumpkin> can someone paste that so that j-invariant can see it?
01:01:40 <elliott> ^cat <copumpkin> I honestly don't want j-invariant to be silenced in #haskell. I hate banning/silencing people, especially when the behavior that led to it is pretty simple to avoid, and j-invariant seems to know enough to be fun to talk to
01:01:50 <elliott> !echo <copumpkin> I honestly don't want j-invariant to be silenced in #haskell. I hate banning/silencing people, especially when the behavior that led to it is pretty simple to avoid, and j-invariant seems to know enough to be fun to talk to
01:01:52 <elliott> `echo <copumpkin> I honestly don't want j-invariant to be silenced in #haskell. I hate banning/silencing people, especially when the behavior that led to it is pretty simple to avoid, and j-invariant seems to know enough to be fun to talk to
01:02:01 <EgoBot> <copumpkin> I honestly don't want j-invariant to be silenced in #haskell. I hate banning/silencing people, especially when the behavior that led to it is pretty simple to avoid, and j-invariant seems to know enough to be fun to talk to
01:02:08 <HackEgo> <copumpkin> I honestly don't want j-invariant to be silenced in #haskell. I hate banning/silencing people, especially when the behavior that led to it is pretty simple to avoid, and j-invariant seems to know enough to be fun to talk to
01:02:10 <elliott> oops, it's going to come through twice
01:02:18 <oerjan> elliott: EgoBot and HackEgo are _always_ slow, you know that perfectly well
01:02:28 <elliott> j-invariant: none of that shit.
01:02:35 <elliott> copumpkin: well his temper has been shortening by the day.
01:02:41 <elliott> a temporary ban is probably for the best ...
01:02:53 <Mathnerd314> copumpkin: IRC is open source, so it's better than twitter
01:02:56 <elliott> `echo j-invariant: why am I (elliott) on /ignore?
01:02:57 <HackEgo> j-invariant: why am I (elliott) on /ignore?
01:03:01 <elliott> Mathnerd314: IRC isn't software, so no it's not open source
01:03:26 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: It is, however, an *open standard*.
01:03:32 <elliott> `echo j-invariant: I seriously just want to know what I said ...
01:03:36 <HackEgo> j-invariant: I seriously just want to know what I said ...
01:03:40 <Mathnerd314> elliott: the freenode servers are open-source, as are several clients, and the standard is as well... it's about as open as can be
01:04:09 <copumpkin> `echo j-invariant because I've asked you to be civil and stop disparaging Haskell in #haskell? I'm not even sure when you ignored me or why. Can you unignore me and we can sort this out in private maybe?
01:04:10 <HackEgo> j-invariant because I've asked you to be civil and stop disparaging Haskell in #haskell? I'm not even sure when you ignored me or why. Can you unignore me and we can sort this out in private maybe?
01:04:31 <elliott> it might be good to note that that was you
01:04:38 <elliott> because we're getting mixed up botwise here
01:05:06 <oerjan> i should point out that i consider evading ignores to be bannable.
01:05:26 -!- copumpkin has left (?).
01:05:49 <oerjan> sheesh is _everyone_ overreacting now...
01:06:01 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
01:06:15 <elliott> oerjan: oh come on, evading ignores happens in here all the time.
01:06:23 <elliott> copumpkin was trying to reach a peaceful resolution to the situation in #haskell.
01:06:51 <elliott> oerjan: are personal insults a bannable offence?
01:08:02 <oerjan> i was implying somewhat more extreme cases
01:08:23 <elliott> oerjan: what does that mean
01:08:45 <elliott> oerjan: that's an actual question :/
01:08:49 <elliott> i can't parse the sentence
01:09:10 <elliott> oh joy <gwern> at least Zetsubou-sensei had the courtesy to hang himself <j-invariant> m aybe I sh;uold
01:10:23 <pikhq> Is j-invariant bipolar or something?
01:11:08 -!- copumpkin has joined.
01:11:30 <copumpkin> but having rejoined, I shall now close my laptop and walk home!
01:14:11 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
01:14:43 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*116559cd@*.17.101.89.205.
01:14:54 <elliott> isn't there meant to be a boss fight?
01:15:27 <copumpkin> I'll return and resume the boss fight later :)
01:16:10 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
01:16:35 <elliott> can i use you as a punching bag oerjan?
01:18:40 <oerjan> as if you've ever asked before
01:20:19 <elliott> well j-invariant's been -q'd on #haskell now
01:20:23 <elliott> maybe we can just forget it ever happened! >_>
01:21:00 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
01:21:07 <oerjan> let's try that for a while
01:23:23 <pikhq> So. Egypt no longer has Internet at all.
01:23:52 <pikhq> The local government shut down pretty much all ISPs in response to the protests.
01:24:34 <oerjan> mubarak doesn't mess around.
01:24:45 <pikhq> No, but he may still be fucked.
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02:14:33 <Gregor> Idea: Mind-bogglingly slow Internet access which is extremely prone to middle-man attacks.
02:15:39 -!- Gregor has set topic: By joining this chatroom you consent to the jurisdiction of the Principality of Gregora, Land of Hats. | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
02:16:30 <oerjan> shouldn't that be http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlanetOfHats ?
02:32:04 <Sgeo> Wow, I haven't eaten much these past two days
02:32:16 <Sgeo> ...actually, I don't think I even ate today
02:35:13 <elliott> Sgeo: you realise eating is a requirement of human life
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03:07:10 * oerjan waves his hands vaguely in a southwestern direction
03:08:35 <oerjan> YOU HAVE TOO LITTLE FAITH, ELLIOTT
03:08:49 <elliott> Mathnerd314: that doesn't solve the slow problem. or the unreliable problem.
03:08:58 <elliott> Mathnerd314: also, https is insecure if you get MITM'd
03:09:05 <elliott> because the man in the middle can just send you any old certificate
03:09:12 <Mathnerd314> elliott: not if you cache your certificates
03:09:25 <elliott> Mathnerd314: so basically to use this you have to first have a real internet connetion
03:09:34 <elliott> and then use the slow, unreliable, insecure network?
03:10:06 <Mathnerd314> elliott: you send for a USB key in the mail, plug it in, and use the internet. alternately, it comes preloaded on the PC
03:10:17 <elliott> what do usb keys have to do with anything
03:10:29 <oerjan> MAIL IN THE MIDDLE ATTACKS
03:10:51 <elliott> Mathnerd314: you buy a USB key containing the certificate of every website ever?
03:10:54 <Mathnerd314> oerjan: if they can get your mail, they can get anything
03:11:00 <elliott> i have no fucking clue what you're on about
03:11:31 <elliott> anyway root certs aren't a trustable model in the slighest.
03:11:34 <elliott> your idea is a bad idea. :p
03:12:07 <Mathnerd314> elliott: I'm pretty certain there's some protocol for secure communication over an insecure medium with prior knowledge
03:12:23 <elliott> Mathnerd314: going to work on the incredibly slow and unreliable problems?
03:12:42 <Mathnerd314> elliott: why would it be slow and unreliable?
03:12:59 <elliott> Gregor: yo join in, i have a headache and typing is hard
03:13:11 <elliott> Mathnerd314: slow because there would be many, many router hops.
03:13:16 <elliott> unreliable because routers would go out all the time.
03:13:23 <elliott> Mathnerd314: bittorrent has central trackers
03:13:26 <elliott> the DHT is less fast and reliable
03:13:38 <elliott> Mathnerd314: and bittorrent peers don't let you access any resource on the internet
03:13:38 <Gregor> The prior knowledge is CAs. Discuss.
03:13:54 <elliott> Gregor: tell him why it's slow and unreliable with better wording than i used :P
03:15:21 <elliott> "Here's my incredibly slow, impractical and useless architecture based on sending data by forcing pigeons to poop in a certain way over the course of a year
03:15:25 <elliott> ...but everything can be optimised!"
03:24:10 * copumpkin challenges oerjan or j-invariant to a duel at midnight eastern
03:25:46 <elliott> turns out headache are superpowers
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03:32:42 <Sgeo> I just thought of an idea for a language that may be more difficult to program than malbolge. It's based on Go.
03:32:54 <Sgeo> [Ok, that might be a slight exaggeration]
03:33:33 <elliott> i blame copumpkin for this headache
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03:34:15 <Sgeo> I was hoping for someone to say that the Go language is easy
03:34:45 <oerjan> Sgeo: i was assuming you meant the game here...
03:34:54 <oerjan> i mean we're trying to be _esoteric_ here...
03:34:58 <Sgeo> oerjan, I did. I was hoping people didn't realize
03:35:25 <elliott> copumpkin: fuckin' faught me
03:36:03 <oerjan> GIVING HEADACHES TO PESKY TEENAGERS MAY BE BANNABLE. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED:
03:36:36 <elliott> oerjan: btw i'm goin gto murder you for that pesky remark, just as soon as i can do anything without excruciating pain
03:36:40 <elliott> maybe i'll turn the lights off
03:36:55 <Sgeo> Remove the ko rule. Take two Go bots. Have them play eachother. The programmer gives a starting board (arranges stones) such that the bots will play in the manner that the programmer wants. To do I/O, there are specific areas on the board that should be in specific shapes by specific colors
03:37:40 <Sgeo> elliott, don't IRC with a headache? </hypocrite>
03:37:45 <Sgeo> elliott, take some medicine?
03:37:51 <elliott> i don't see how not ircing would help
03:38:06 <elliott> i could go and get some ibuprofen, but i'm not sure where it is, and downstairs is a long way away
03:38:15 <elliott> the lower light seems to be helping a bit, i'll drink some more
03:42:00 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `ENTERTAIN'Not in scope: data constructor `ME'
03:42:12 <elliott> how do you do it in \bot again
03:42:23 <oerjan> did they add a way to do that?
03:42:50 <Sgeo> elliott, write some code for my esolang
03:43:01 <Sgeo> That's not currently well-specified enough to code for!
03:43:17 <elliott> Sgeo: no it actually sounds vaguely interesting, which doesn't fit my mental image of you :)
03:43:29 <elliott> oerjan: there's a way to do it for djinn isn't there?
03:43:30 <oerjan> @let data TestData = Testing1 | Testing2
03:43:34 <elliott> copumpkin: you're the HASKELL GUY, you tell us
03:44:03 <Sgeo> I have no clue how one would go about actually using the language
03:44:10 <Sgeo> No pun intended
03:44:15 <oerjan> doesn't @let actually add it to a module file? it wouldn't be too difficult to allow data too in there would it?
03:44:48 <lambdabot> undefine. Reset evaluator local bindings
03:45:06 <oerjan> and @undefine actually deletes _all_ of them iirc
03:46:03 <elliott> MWAHAHAHAHAHA NUCLEAR HOLOCAUST
03:46:17 <elliott> you shall all die because i am in pain
03:46:46 <elliott> i would care less if i could figure out WHY
03:46:47 <oerjan> Sgeo: all i recall is that deciding which of two perfect players wins a Go game on an arbitrary-sized board is supposedly PSPACE-complete
03:47:01 <elliott> yeah cuz gnugo is perfect :)
03:47:08 <oerjan> elliott: if it helps i just got some pain in my back
03:47:23 <elliott> maybe this is my punishment for being happy before
03:47:28 <Sgeo> I was assuming I'd have to go hunting for an appropriate bot. I should look into GnuGo
03:48:08 <Sgeo> How to program in the language depends far more on the bot than the actual game itself
03:48:56 <elliott> gnugo is the standard "open" one
03:49:10 <elliott> Sgeo: this would be far more elegant if you made the bots instead perfect players :)
03:49:19 <elliott> (and also 100% more unimplementable with the current state of the art)
03:49:27 <elliott> also easier to reason about, probably
03:52:05 <Sgeo> What if the perfect strategy turns out to have some completely nutty seeming moves?
03:52:23 <Sgeo> We could only guess at what a given program does
03:52:36 <Sgeo> Well, that's rather interesting, come to think of it
03:52:46 <Sgeo> It would also mean not writing a single line of code, though
03:53:01 <Sgeo> Which may be good, given my tendencies to put stuff down to look at the shiny
03:53:59 <Sgeo> Easier to reason about is a minus, though
03:54:14 <oerjan> well i presume the PSPACE-completeness proof constructs game situations for which determining who wins _is_ determinable if you can solve the original problem
03:55:04 <elliott> Sgeo: easier to reason about is a plus really, easy to reason about but impossible to actually use
03:55:07 <elliott> is like the holy grail of esoterica
03:55:49 <Sgeo> elliott, gravity does that
03:57:51 <Sgeo> The only real difference between PerfectPlayer-based and Gravity is that we can't know for certain that a given program does what we think it will do
03:58:08 <elliott> like oerjan said it's pspace
03:58:20 <elliott> i guess there is an algorithm?
03:58:48 <Sgeo> But the algorithm may be something that makes no sense whatsoever to current Go thought
03:58:58 <elliott> ima let oerjan take over here
03:59:04 <elliott> while i curl up more into this bed
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04:01:07 <oerjan> well to solve a pspace-problem it is completely permissible to search through all branches
04:01:26 <elliott> right obviously there is an algorithm
04:01:29 <oerjan> which means it's sort of obvious that Go should be in pspace
04:02:35 <Sgeo> The definition of the language would ... no it wouldn't. I was thinking it would have to be different, but probably the programmer would fill most of the board. They'd have to do that for GnuGo-based anyway, right?
04:02:44 <Sgeo> In order to reason about it effectively?
04:02:59 <Sgeo> I was thinking more along the lines of a few stones on the board, for some reason
04:03:39 <oerjan> i'd guess a few stones would mean it is completely impossible for _us_ to determine who has the win
04:03:53 <oerjan> so we can obviously not program efficiently with it
04:04:15 <elliott> i think ehat would help this headache
04:10:36 <Sgeo> It's not "who has the win" that I had in mind. It's "These stones get placed here to do X"
04:10:37 -!- acetoline has changed nick to blow_me.
04:11:06 -!- elliott has set topic: bro_mine.
04:11:11 <elliott> that was meant to be a nick
04:11:46 * Sgeo puts elliott to sleep
04:12:11 <Sgeo> elliott, feel better soon
04:12:13 <oerjan> except those who are blowers
04:12:16 <elliott> i hate you all and you should all die :)))))
04:12:25 <Sgeo> And sadly, at this point, I'm not a fucker
04:13:03 <elliott> if only katie a.t. the alluded-to-female whose name is constantly elongated believed that orange juice caused love instead
04:13:16 <elliott> ...i don't even remember what it says at this point...
04:14:31 <elliott> wow people actually use fvwm
04:14:50 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/6hJAm.png http://i.imgur.com/6hJAm.png http://i.imgur.com/6hJAm.png http://i.imgur.com/6hJAm.png http://i.imgur.com/6hJAm.png http://i.imgur.com/6hJAm.png
04:15:27 * oerjan vaguely thinks fvwm was the wm on his last office linux machine
04:16:24 <elliott> yay there's a teddy bear on my desktop
04:16:37 <elliott> oh wow, the mouse cursor changes to a heart when you hover over it
04:16:40 <elliott> this is advanced magic shit
04:18:07 <elliott> this is what fvwm users are like http://www.xteddy.org/fvwmquiz.rbx
04:19:50 <elliott> oerjan: people, aren't tehy crazy
04:22:10 -!- quintopia has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
04:23:14 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/f5fzt/what_books_should_i_read_to_get_up_to_speed_on/c1df2e9 this is the weirdest reddit post ever
04:23:18 <elliott> first its like reasonable advice
04:23:27 <elliott> here's how to do this thing you never asked about
04:23:39 <elliott> here's even more instructions you didn't ask for
04:23:51 <elliott> read the source code of this playlist i wrote for this occasion!
04:23:53 <elliott> you can see it's not malicious
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04:26:24 <elliott> oerjan: is there an analouge of fs=1:1:zipWith(+)fs(tail fs) for factoryalllle
04:27:29 <elliott> oerjan: yeah jst accept it
04:27:33 <lambdabot> [1,2,6,24,120,720,5040,40320,362880,3628800,39916800,479001600,6227020800,8...
04:27:35 <elliott> it is the only thing that gives me pleasure in this kind of state
04:27:41 <elliott> oh nice, i think i've seen that before
04:27:47 <lambdabot> [0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,...
04:27:52 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[t1] -> t'
04:27:54 <lambdabot> [0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,...
04:28:03 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[t1] -> t'
04:28:08 <lambdabot> [1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,...
04:28:11 <lambdabot> [1,1,2,6,24,120,720,5040,40320,362880,3628800,39916800,479001600,6227020800...
04:28:30 <elliott> > let fact = (scanl (*) 1 [1..])!! in fact 1000
04:28:31 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `in'
04:28:36 <elliott> > let fact = (scanl (*) 1 [1..] !!) in fact 1000
04:28:37 <lambdabot> 402387260077093773543702433923003985719374864210714632543799910429938512398...
04:29:20 <elliott> p00O0o)O)o0o0oo0oO)O)O))O)O)O)O)OO)))))))))))))PPPPPPpppppppq
04:30:17 <lambdabot> 402387260077093773543702433923003985719374864210714632543799910429938512398...
04:32:35 <elliott> oerjan: but is the former fact not more efficient
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04:33:08 <oerjan> well if you look at more than one value...
04:33:36 <elliott> oerjan: right, if you don't it's ofc equivalent
04:33:47 <elliott> oerjan: but the memoising function is preferable for the memoising reason
04:33:57 <elliott> oerjan: although it feels a bit upsettingly manual.
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04:34:30 <elliott> :t let fib _ 0 = 0; fib _ 1 = 1; fib me n = me (n-1) + me (n-2) in fib
04:34:32 <lambdabot> forall t a. (Num a, Num t) => (t -> a) -> t -> a
04:34:46 <elliott> oerjan: can we transform this into the list-based fib?
04:35:01 <elliott> :t let fib _ 0 = 0; fib _ 1 = 1; fib me n = me (n-1) + me (n-2); fibs = map (fib (fibs!!)) [0..] in fibs
04:35:05 <elliott> > let fib _ 0 = 0; fib _ 1 = 1; fib me n = me (n-1) + me (n-2); fibs = map (fib (fibs!!)) [0..] in fibs
04:35:06 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946...
04:35:24 <elliott> > let fib' _ 0 = 0; fib' _ 1 = 1; fib' me n = me (n-1) + me (n-2); fibs = map (fib' fib) [0..]; fib = (fibs!!) in fib 1000
04:35:26 <lambdabot> 434665576869374564356885276750406258025646605173717804024817290895365554179...
04:35:39 <elliott> that's really nice, i wonder what algorithms it is applicable to
04:35:44 <elliott> and if you can package this up as a generic function
04:36:09 <elliott> :t \f -> let foos = map (f foo) [0..]; foo = (foos!!) in foo
04:36:10 <lambdabot> forall a b. (Num a, Enum a) => ((Int -> b) -> a -> b) -> Int -> b
04:36:21 <elliott> @pl \f -> let foos = map (f foo) [0..]; foo = (foos!!) in foo
04:36:22 <lambdabot> fst . fix . (`ap` snd) . (. fst) . (flip ((,) . (!!)) .) . flip flip [0..] . (map .)
04:36:30 <oerjan> i think i've seen something like it called memoize
04:36:40 <elliott> oerjan: yeah but the point here is that the recursion is factored out
04:37:14 <elliott> @let memoFix :: ((Int -> a) -> Int -> a) -> (Int -> a); memoFix f = let foos = map (f foo) [0..]; foo = (foos!!) in foo
04:37:44 <elliott> > let fact' _ 0 = 1; fact' me n = n * fact' me (n-1); fact = memoFix fact' in fact 1000
04:37:53 <elliott> oerjan: this is cool, too bad it only works for Ints without some hackery
04:38:11 <elliott> > let fact' _ 0 = 1; fact' me n = n * me (n-1); fact = memoFix fact' in fact 1000
04:38:20 <elliott> i guess it is not so efficient then?
04:38:37 <oerjan> it will retraverse the list whenever looking up stuff
04:39:04 <oerjan> the direct list version can optimize because it always knows it needs the previous two values
04:39:38 <oerjan> a Trie may be somewhat more efficient
04:39:47 <elliott> oerjan: yeah but that starts getting heavy-duty and stuff
04:40:03 <elliott> sad that generalising something simple results in a complexity change :
04:42:43 <elliott> hm http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell/Denotational_semantics says that _|_+1 must = _|_
04:42:47 <elliott> but that's not true with lazy naturals
04:43:25 <elliott> "Not all Functions in Strict Languages are Strict
04:43:45 <oerjan> it's still rather hard to avoid _either_ _|_+1 = _|_ or 1+_|_ = _|_
04:44:35 <elliott> oerjan: you can do it with lub I think
04:45:19 <elliott> lub [\Zero y -> y, \x Zero -> x, \(Succ x) y -> Succ (add x y), \x (Succ y) -> Succ (add x y)]
04:45:26 <elliott> oerjan: but then lub is magical! :)
04:45:44 <oerjan> uses concurrency i assume
04:45:58 <elliott> oerjan: yes, it's specified that your function must Obey Ze Rules
04:46:13 <elliott> oerjan: i.e., if two cases could apply (i.e. one of them isn't _|_), then they have to produce equal values
04:46:24 <elliott> oerjan: Lub is an experiment in computing least upper information bounds on (partially defined) functional values. It provides a lub function that is consistent with the unamb operator but has a more liberal precondition. Where unamb requires its arguments to equal when neither is bottom, lub is able to synthesize a value from the partial information contained in both of its arguments.
04:46:44 <elliott> oerjan: lub was used in that blog post that defined arithmetic on "data Omega = W Omega"
04:46:52 <elliott> where "zero = zero" and "succ = W"
04:47:02 <elliott> Where unamb requires its arguments to equal when neither is bottom, lub is able to synthesize a value from the partial information contained in both of its arguments, which is useful with non-flat types.
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04:49:34 <elliott> oerjan: based on http://conal.net/blog/posts/merging-partial-values/ it seems
04:49:58 <elliott> oerjan: hm what is that ~ he uses before the patterns?
04:50:15 <elliott> oerjan: great news!! my headache disappeared
04:50:56 * Sgeo dances for elliott
04:52:32 <elliott> oerjan: *Main> add one bot
04:52:34 <elliott> oerjan: http://hpaste.org/43387/lazy_conats
04:52:38 <pikhq> elliott: hąateīinisiyô!
04:52:57 <oerjan> elliott: ~ is lazy matching
04:53:01 <elliott> oerjan: how does that work
04:53:53 <oerjan> > case Nothing of ~(Just x) -> x; _ -> "hm..."
04:53:53 <lambdabot> "*Exception: <interactive>:(3,0)-(4,21): Irrefutable pattern failed for pat...
04:53:54 <pikhq> elliott: A lazy pattern match can't fail.
04:54:09 <pikhq> Well, it can, but that's _|_.
04:54:55 <oerjan> elliott: um that _was_ the intended effect
04:55:10 <pikhq> elliott: He was demonstrating that a failed lazy pattern match is _|_.
04:55:24 <oerjan> it is not checked that the value _is_ a Just until it's actually used
04:55:29 <elliott> *Main> mul two (add bot two)
04:57:32 <elliott> oerjan: http://hpaste.org/43388/lazy_conats_annotation?pid=43388&lang_43388=Haskell
04:57:34 <lambdabot> f &&& g = arr (\b -> (b,b)) >>> f *** g
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04:58:12 <elliott> oerjan: also "mul (add bot one) inf" = inf
04:58:28 <elliott> oerjan: although it piles on S's quite slowly :)
04:59:02 <elliott> *Data.Lub> (⊥,False) ⊔ (True,⊥)
04:59:02 <elliott> *Data.Lub> (⊥,(⊥,False)) ⊔ ((),(⊥,⊥)) ⊔ (⊥,(True,⊥))
04:59:46 * oerjan checks logs for unicode
05:00:04 <elliott> oerjan: didn't you fix your client? :(
05:00:23 <oerjan> it only shows european alphabets
05:00:35 <elliott> oerjan: i could help you fix that but i doubt you're bothered :P
05:00:48 <elliott> oerjan: hey you can implement a cond function that works like "cond _|_ x x = x" with lub!
05:01:20 <elliott> oerjan: condc x y = lubs [ if c then x else y, x, y ]
05:01:30 <elliott> oerjan: cond c x y = lubs [ (if c then x else y), x, y ]
05:01:38 <elliott> Your use of unamb in defining if' does not meet the required precondition (of information-compatible arguments). From a conversation on #haskell, I know you’ve come up with a really beautiful correct definition. I’d love to see you post the correct version for all to admire.
05:01:44 <elliott> i wonder what the proper solution is
05:02:30 <elliott> -- | Multiplication optimized for either argument being zero or one, where
05:02:30 <elliott> -- the other might be expensive/delayed.
05:02:30 <elliott> ptimes :: (HasLub a, Num a) => a -> a -> a
05:03:31 <oerjan> elliott: ah x and y may not be compatible even if c is non-bottom
05:03:39 <oerjan> i guess that's the problem
05:03:53 <elliott> oerjan: cond c x y = lubs [ (if c then x else y), if x == y then x else undefined ]
05:03:56 <elliott> oerjan: but that won't work on [1..] ofc :)
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05:04:08 <elliott> at least conal said luke (palmer) came up with a correct solution
05:04:20 <elliott> perhaps i could trawl the #haskell logs :)
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05:08:49 <elliott> oerjan: tell me to go in a minute
05:10:47 <oerjan> lubs [ if lubs [c, True] then x else y, if lubs [c, False] then y else x ]
05:11:07 <elliott> oerjan: lubs [x,y] == lub x y
05:11:43 <oerjan> actually can you use lubs on two incompatible values if you want the result to be bottom?
05:11:55 <oerjan> otherwise i think there's a problem there
05:11:58 <elliott> <oerjan> actually can you use lubs on two incompatible values if you want the result to be bottom?
05:12:25 <oerjan> rephrase: i don't think the above works if c is non-bottom
05:12:46 <elliott> the latter turns into True `lub` False, say
05:13:06 <elliott> oerjan: (if c then x else y) `lub` lubs [ if lubs [c, True] then x else y, if lubs [c, False] then y else x ]
05:13:17 <elliott> since if c=True and x is _|_
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06:00:48 <Ilari> More odd games with routing: Now two interfaces share an IP address...
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06:28:12 <zzo38> Some strange chess..... what if you are allowed to promote your pawns into pieces of opponent's color?
06:28:58 <oerjan> i vaguely recall seeing a chess problem based on that
06:29:54 <zzo38> It is on Wikipedia.
06:29:59 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joke_chess_problem#Offbeat_interpretations_of_the_rules_of_chess
06:30:26 <zzo38> There is also the problem based on the rule, if you are allowed to castle with a rook that has just been added by promoting a pawn.
06:32:11 <pikhq> ... Castling with a rook that was just promoted from a pawn?
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06:40:17 <oerjan> http://i.imgur.com/xDtDL.jpg :D
06:46:23 <Sgeo> Someone should have used that in a tournament, if the rules of the time allowed it
06:48:09 <zzo38> Now it can be made a variant, with rules such as allowing to promote into opponent's pieces, even if you also make the rule that you are only allowed to promote to pieces which have already been lost.
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07:11:44 <coppro> the puzzle was how they got fixed
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10:36:48 <evincar> What's up in here these days?
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12:34:10 <Ilari> Wonder what the heck is going on with APNIC/IANA...
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12:58:50 <fizzie> Perhaps the speculation is true and they're planning a big party, with those party hats and noise-makers and so on.
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13:03:43 <Phantom_Hoover> The New Scientist has used Kurzweil's estimate for the Singularity as fact.
13:04:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I suppose I shouldn't have been expecting standards that high anyway.
13:05:00 <Ilari> At least it isn't a 6 digit IPv6 address (from Fox universe)... :-)
13:05:45 <Phantom_Hoover> They actually interviewed him and were uncritical of his whole life-extending crap.
13:07:20 <Ilari> Yeah, most life extension and health stuff is crap.
13:12:02 <Phantom_Hoover> It's so transparently obvious that Kurzweil is just desperately trying to hide from his own mortality by any means possible.
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13:24:28 <Ilari> Wonder what APNIC figures for today will be...
13:24:55 <Ilari> I think those will appear in few hours...
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14:46:27 <asiekierka> do you know of any 2-opcode, 0-parameter esolang?
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15:45:10 <Ilari> That's crazy low...
15:45:58 <Ilari> 2 weeks ago it was 2.01, so 0.77 in 2 weeks...
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15:56:18 <Ilari> Also, 3 blogposts in a row blaming wheat in Dr. Davis' blog... :-)
15:56:36 <Sgeo> Blaming wheat for IPv4 depletion?
15:56:52 <Ilari> Blaming wheat for various health problems...
15:58:25 <Phantom_Hoover> I'd have thought they taught you this in Farmingdale, Sgeo.
15:59:10 <Ilari> That rate is about 1.5 a month. APNIC will allocate about 4.80 in phases 1 and 2. That's sightly more than 3 months... Ouch.
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16:00:56 <Ilari> Would mean APNIC depletion in May (of course, not a serious model, but I have seen estimates even more pessimistic than that).
16:01:20 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought depletion was estimated to start in less than a month?
16:02:26 <Ilari> APNIC allocates those last blocks in few days at most. That date was about APNIC RIR depletion.
16:05:50 <Ilari> Hmm... Wonder how much has APNIC allocated in December and January?
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16:10:44 <Ilari> 38 927 872 addresses (2.32 blocks)
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16:13:42 <Ilari> That would be about 1.2 blocks per month. Not quite as bad as 1.5 per month but that would still deplete the pool in about 4 months...
16:16:43 <Ilari> Note: The current predicted time to first RIR depletion is about 8 months... This would amount to exhaustion in half the time.
16:18:00 <Ilari> And note: No discontinuous run-on-the-bank after IANA depletion is assumed...
16:18:28 <Ilari> (the biggest reason for this: "We can't model panic.")
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16:53:53 * Phantom_Hoover downloads the Windows version of a program because the Linux version crashes due to shared library problems.
16:54:05 <Sgeo> I'm a but upset about opendylan failing that nowww test
16:54:26 <oerjan> better nowww than laterrr
16:55:03 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, try going to opendylan.org. Then try www.opendylan.org
16:59:16 <Phantom_Hoover> variable, was that to the thing about shared library thing?
16:59:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, if that is not an open-source version of Bob Dylan I will be severely disappointed.
17:10:01 <ais523> according to Slashdot, the Internet's been shut off in Egypt
17:10:06 <ais523> and I haven't found a comment contradicting that yet
17:10:10 <ais523> that's pretty shocking
17:13:04 <Sgeo> The Inglip people just _had_ to make a wiki on Wikia
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17:28:33 <Sgeo> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/food/article-1350817/Le-Whaf-Now-theres-food-dont-eat-INHALE.html
17:29:01 <Sgeo> I was _so excited_, then "Best of all, each breath (or whaf) contains hardly any calories so you can have as much as you like without gaining weight.
17:29:08 <Sgeo> FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU
17:30:32 <asiekierka> by two opcodes i probably meant syntatic elements, yes
17:30:46 <ais523> hmm, http://www.renesys.com/blog/2011/01/egypt-leaves-the-internet.shtml is posted about the Egyptian internet loss by people who apparently know what they're doing
17:30:57 <asiekierka> i'm trying to make a computer in my own game, 64pixels
17:31:31 <asiekierka> and due to 2D limitations i can only have two "instructions"
17:31:56 <asiekierka> i was thinking of this, for example: "] move right, skip next command if byte at pointer is 1" and "* flip bit"
17:32:46 <Ilari> Now that's fail...
17:32:53 <cheater-> ais523: i'm reading a story by von daeniken, it has a protagonist named ais
17:32:59 <Ilari> (the one Sgeo posted)
17:33:06 <ais523> cheater-: probably coincidence
17:33:12 <fizzie> ais523: It's been everywhere in the "regular" news; also funny quote from an interview of the Renesys folks: "'We have enough Internet here [in the US] that we can have our own Internet,' he told the AP. 'If you cut it off, that leads to a philosophical question: Who got cut off from the Internet, us or the rest of the world?'"
17:33:46 <ais523> you end up with two internets, obviously
17:33:55 <ais523> the notion of an internet doesn't imply it's necessarily singular
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17:34:15 <ais523> it's just that if you have more than one, it's likely that they'll be connected, so you generally have one big Internet as a result
17:34:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, FFS, It's the _Mail_. Its journalistic standards are second to all but, say, your average school magazine.
17:34:31 <ais523> OK, although I'm a bit busy in real life
17:34:42 <Sgeo> <Hugh Laurie> We're talking about multiple Internets.
17:34:46 <Ilari> Ah, yeah. Having at least one root server and servers for your ccTLD and most important gTLDs is enough...
17:35:29 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I just want to know why they weren't wondering, if it's how people eat in the future, where they get what they need to survive from
17:35:43 <ais523> Ilari: I think you can have an internet even without DNS
17:35:51 <ais523> all you need is a global routing table that scans multiple networks
17:35:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, they don't think. I am surprised that they even write.
17:36:24 <calamari> Gregor: remember that video you posted a long time ago with the bears crossing the street (cyriak cycles)? well my son remembered it and watched to watch it again, you seem to be dialed into the 5yr old mind.
17:37:33 <fizzie> ais523: OED subscribes to the "an internet; the Internet" theory: "internet, v. intr. Originally, esp. of networks: to be connected together. Later: to be connected to the Internet; to communicate using the Internet. Also trans.: to connect to the Internet or an internet."
17:37:49 <Ilari> Of course, having DNS helps...
17:38:23 <oerjan> Gregor's loyal army of remote controlled five year olds
17:38:35 <oerjan> basically we are doomed
17:39:14 <fizzie> And for the noun: "Originally (in form internet): a computer network consisting of or connecting a number of smaller networks, such as two or more local area networks connected by a shared communications protocol; spec. such a network (called ARPAnet) operated by the U.S. Defense Department. In later use (usu. the Internet): the global computer network (which evolved out of ARPAnet) providing a variety of information and communication facilities to its users, a
17:39:15 <fizzie> nd consisting of a loose confederation of interconnected networks which use standardized communication protocols; (also) the information available on this network."
17:39:30 <Ilari> Hey, nutrional defiencies are already rampant (basically the only one that isn't deficient is calories, unless you are on diet)... :-)
17:40:11 <fizzie> Anyway, if you insist going by the first definition, you most likely have "the internet" now in Egypt too; I find it rather unlikely there wouldn't be at least two networks still connected to each other there.
17:41:18 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: IRC is better for gaining info than the Internet, in many cases
17:41:38 <ais523> e.g. if I want to know about IPv4 depletion, asking Ilari is likely to give more up-to-the-minute and precise information than trying to find it on Google
17:42:03 <ais523> fizzie: apparently there aren't, though; not only is the Internet cut off, but so are mobile phones
17:42:40 <fizzie> ais523: I'm pretty sure there's still at least one company that has two LANs in, say, two floors of a building, and a network in-between.
17:43:14 <ais523> fizzie: ah; although, don't companies normally have just the one LAN?
17:43:28 <ais523> to me, internet really implies networks connected at the BGP level
17:43:44 <fizzie> I guess it again depends on how L you define the LAN.
17:44:32 <fizzie> At least some sort of a large university campus might have rather separate networks in there.
17:45:09 * oerjan subtly hints to ais523 that IRC is part of the Internet
17:45:23 <Sgeo> oerjan, ISIDTID?
17:45:25 <fizzie> (Admittedly it's still geographically pretty local, assuming the operators have cut all their per-customer-dedicated-link routings.)
17:45:33 <ais523> oerjan: I meant to say the Web
17:45:40 <ais523> and messed up due to the subject of conversation
17:45:44 <ais523> I'm well aware of the distinction
17:45:59 <Sgeo> oerjan, you don't know what ISIDTID means?
17:46:14 <Sgeo> I Say I Do Therefore I Do
17:46:32 <fizzie> "About 140 results" and all those look pretty Agora-centric.
17:46:39 <fizzie> It's certainly not what I'd call common vocabulary.
17:47:12 <ais523> I mean, it's a fallacy that's theoretically applicable anywhere, but generally only becomes relevant in nomics
17:47:14 <Ilari> And also, getting every nutrient and such one needs to survive from modern food is bit so and so...
17:50:07 <oerjan> i vaguely recall seeing a technical term for something similar
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17:56:04 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performative_utterance
17:56:59 <ais523> hmm, I didn't realise the argument about whether those could be true or false had spread to Wikipedia too
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18:01:25 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: read the article to see a summary of the arguments
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18:30:30 <fizzie> Heh, with IPv6 enabled the FUnet (Finnish university network) file archive's HTTP frontend no longer works (well, or no-www fails, anyway): http://p.zem.fi/funet6 -- if you connect with v4, it redirects to www.; if you connect with v6, it ends up in an infinite redirect loop.
18:30:50 <fizzie> A bit of a shame, since www.nic.funet.fi works just fine with both ways of connecting.
18:32:34 <fizzie> I hear even some "consumer-grade" broadband router-boxes do 6to4 nowadays.
18:33:45 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6to4#Consumer_routers_with_6to4_support
18:33:52 <ais523> fizzie: and Windows Vista does Teredo, but it's off by default
18:37:06 <fizzie> Do they have a fancy anycast address for Teredo too, or is that a 6to4 exclusive?
18:38:11 <fizzie> FUnet has a 6to4 relay, I remember that's where my 192.88.99.1 connections went back when I was in the university student apartments.
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18:41:44 <fizzie> And they did the thing that didn't exist back then: an automatic system-thingie that lets you delegate the reverse-DNS zone corresponding to your 6to4 /48 block.
18:42:16 <fizzie> Although it seems to be "still in a testing phase" since 2004.
18:45:47 <Ilari> Hmm... Kernel IPv6 routing table is quite WTF...
18:47:36 <quintopia> RT @thetorpedodog: IPv4 exhaustion party: everybody brings an EXTREMELY SMALL amount of alcohol and pretends to be surprised when it's gone.
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19:07:33 <Ilari> Isn't there those very small alcoholic drink bottles that only hold few centiliters?
19:09:26 <pikhq> Makes sense for strong liquor.
19:16:01 <quintopia> < BestWorstAdvice> Hate being bothered with an Internet bill every month? Move to Egypt.
19:20:47 <fizzie> Ilari: Yes; there are 2cl, 3cl, 5cl sized bottles.
19:22:22 <Sgeo> Huh. Katie A.T. has something going on in her life, where I have something similar going on in my life that isn't less bad than what's going on in hers.
19:22:25 <Sgeo> That's a first
19:26:48 <fizzie> I think you just broke PH.
19:27:07 <fizzie> Soon the magic smoke will come out.
19:32:23 <Sgeo> Bad things in her life seem to correspond to things in my life that aren't as bad, or that shouldn't be. She, for example, has a very good reason that she doesn't drive. But this particular bad thing is just about as bad for me
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19:46:38 <pikhq> Omelettes are delicious. Especially when you just figured out how to make them by thinking about it for a bit.
19:47:20 <fizzie> You can't make them without killing a few people, I've heard. (From the internet.)
19:48:00 <pikhq> The mass murder is entirely optional.
19:48:12 <pikhq> But I'm pretty sure exceptionally delicious.
19:52:35 <Ilari> Yeah, stuff made from good ingredients tends to be much better than procesed crap... :-)
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20:21:00 <elliott> zzo removed my damn logs from the topic again
20:21:19 -!- elliott has set topic: Bromine | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
20:21:55 <Phantom_Hoover> (Inasmuch as zzo's actions can be comprehended by the relatively sane.)
20:24:14 -!- ais523 has set topic: Bromine | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://example.com.
20:28:44 <elliott> 13:24:19 <Phantom_Hoover> It's so transparently obvious that Kurzweil is just desperately trying to hide from his own mortality by any means possible.
20:28:44 <elliott> hm is kurzweil even signed up for cryonics?
20:28:51 <elliott> ais523: example.com: THE BEST LOGS
20:29:57 <ais523> I didn't say it was a log
20:30:53 <ais523> hmm, we should just make a one-off channel, say the content of example.com, and then never use it again that day
20:31:42 <elliott> example.com is a redirect now
20:32:02 <elliott> * Now talking on #example.com
20:32:02 <elliott> * kornbluth.freenode.net sets mode +n #example.com
20:32:02 <elliott> * kornbluth.freenode.net sets mode +t #example.com
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20:32:19 <elliott> maybe I should have /nick IANA'd :)
20:34:10 <elliott> IANA = Internet Assigned Numbers Authority :P
20:34:34 <ais523> ooh, example.com looks a lot funkier than it used to
20:34:42 <impomatic> Oh... nothing to do with number 6 then :-(
20:34:50 <elliott> ais523: I just said, it's a redirect
20:34:57 <elliott> heh oerjan doesn't know what ISIDTID means
20:35:16 <ais523> elliott: hmm, I like the implication that you /do/ need IANA's permission to use any domain except example.com and its relatives as examples
20:35:29 <elliott> ais523: well, you basically do
20:35:42 <elliott> I thought you mean, to use a domain name
20:36:28 <elliott> 19:00:04 <quintopia> RT @thetorpedodog: IPv4 exhaustion party: everybody brings an EXTREMELY SMALL amount of alcohol and pretends to be surprised when it's gone.
20:36:57 <elliott> 19:34:50 <Sgeo> Huh. Katie A.T. has something going on in her life, where I have something similar going on in my life that isn't less bad than what's going on in hers.
20:36:57 <elliott> 19:34:54 <Sgeo> That's a first
20:37:08 <elliott> also *Katie A.T. the Alluded-To Female, her name was extended by forceful deed poll
20:37:15 <ais523> is IPv4 exhausted yet?
20:38:26 -!- elliott has left (?).
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20:38:56 <elliott> does anyone know what you have to do to compile a gcc that will compile programs with another libc? hmm, I guess it might be able to do it without editing any spec files
20:39:09 <elliott> in particular, I want it to compile statically by default with uClibc
20:39:20 <elliott> I _think_ that you link with uClibc and its start files in the same manner as glibc
20:39:24 <elliott> so presumably just using it should work
20:39:27 <elliott> but the static-by-default thing?
20:40:31 <elliott> ah, http://bent.latency.net/bent/git/gcc-3.4.6/spec may hold the clue
20:40:36 <elliott> make BOOT_LDFLAGS="-static" bootstrap
20:41:01 <elliott> hmm... http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/attachment.cgi?id=6132
20:41:10 <elliott> don't think I need that patch, I'm going to use uClibc's libstdc++
20:42:17 <elliott> ais523: it's libstd(c++), not (libstdc)++
20:42:27 <elliott> uClibc++ is just uClibc's version of it
20:42:31 <ais523> elliott: indeed, the first is somehow scarier than the second
20:42:33 <elliott> rather than GNU's which most people use
20:42:38 <elliott> I think it ships with gcc, not glibc
20:42:38 <ais523> unless you actually intend to compile C++
20:42:48 <elliott> ais523: err, why else would I get the library?
20:42:54 <elliott> if not intending to compile C++?
20:42:55 <ais523> that's why I was scared
20:43:08 <ais523> I just naturally assumed that nobody sane would actually want to use C++
20:43:11 <elliott> ais523: because I'm a distributor, I have to compile other people's terrible software for the masses
20:43:16 <elliott> ais523: for instance, WebKit
20:43:24 <ais523> and thought it was more natural that you were using a C++ library for C by mistake, than actually compiling C++
20:43:28 <elliott> as such, I need a C++ compiler and a libstdc++
20:43:41 <elliott> no, such is the plight of the distributor
20:45:57 <elliott> I should try actually compiling gcc
20:46:07 <ais523> with custom patches, indeed
20:46:14 <elliott> ais523: I've done it too, but never cross-libc
20:46:28 <elliott> I want to compile gcc statically with uClibc so that it compiles programs with uClibc
20:46:30 <ais523> part of my build script runs the compilation halfway, then runs a Perl script over a generated Makefile to change it, then does the other half of the build
20:46:45 <elliott> Vorpal: how stable is the gcc 4.5 series?
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20:49:35 <elliott> Support has been removed for the protoize and unprotoize utilities, obsoleted in GCC 4.4.
20:50:08 <elliott> hmm: If a header named in a #include directive is not found, the compiler exits immediately. This avoids a cascade of errors arising from declarations expected to be found in that header being missing.
20:50:10 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, did you ever actually "release" that x86 BF superoptimisey compiler on the wiki?
20:50:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: pikhq's compiler isn't the best out there.
20:50:44 <elliott> esotope has far superior optimisation.
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20:51:09 <elliott> (diff) (hist) . . m Joke language list; 08:29 . . (+10) . . Kraftfeld (Talk | contribs) (added BitZ, a BF variant with more freedom in graphics design)
20:51:20 <elliott> (2) FUCKING BF VARIANTS FUCK
20:51:30 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I thought he made it because esotope produces very optimised C, but that C was not compiled into very well-optimised C.
20:51:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No, he made it because he was bored.
20:51:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: GCC and clang do wonders to esotope's C.
20:52:23 <ais523> I noticed it, looked like another BF derivative
20:52:26 <Phantom_Hoover> ISTR him saying that it did all kinds of stupid things when compiled. Something to do with pushing something to the stack and popping it far more often than necessary.
20:52:26 <pikhq> elliott: Also, that compiler outputs assembly.
20:52:27 <ais523> I haven't looked at in detail, because
20:52:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Not that I know of.
20:52:43 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: I was complaining about GCC's output.\
20:52:48 <elliott> clang does a better job than gcc.
20:52:58 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Also clang's, but to a lesser extent.
20:53:08 <elliott> And esotope's high-level optimisations are far more relevant.
20:53:26 <pikhq> Esotope's insanely awesome high-level optimisations are far more relevant than my reasonable low-level ones.
20:53:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Who votes that we make a Brainfuck derivative namespace on the wiki and sling all of the crap into there.
20:54:34 * pikhq can't even find the compiler any more. :(
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20:58:22 <variable> <elliott> 19:00:04 <quintopia> RT @thetorpedodog: IPv4 exhaustion party: everybody brings an EXTREMELY SMALL amount of alcohol and pretends to be surprised when it's gone. -> nope: everybody brings an EXTREMELY SMALL amount of alcohol to your friend's house and get really surprised when your entire class shows up
20:58:35 <Ilari> Current guess for the X-day: Monday 31st...
20:59:10 <variable> (ie - it was an experimental thing never designed for real world use :-) )
21:00:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: Chlorine | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://example.com.
21:01:52 <Phantom_Hoover> ONCE I HIT FLUORINE DO I GO AROUND TO ASTATINE OR DO I START GOING DOWN
21:03:08 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I decided that there was clearly a halogen theme going on and that I should continue it, without regard to the consequences.
21:03:27 <elliott> I thought you were making a Minecraft joke :D
21:06:25 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it's worth pointing out that even I have a BF derivative
21:06:38 <ais523> but I think they're both interesting due to not obviously being TC
21:06:50 <ais523> and not obviously BF-complete, either
21:06:58 <elliott> huh, gcc is distributed in both monolithic and modular forms
21:07:31 <ais523> it used to be only monolithic
21:07:43 <ais523> but they started making it modular after clang
21:08:19 <elliott> I guess I just want gcc-core and gcc-g++, but I'll download the monolithic one
21:08:22 <elliott> less of a headache to start with
21:08:31 <Ilari> Haha... "Yeah, I'm sure the fires in the street across from the Hilton and sound of gunshots that Al Jazeera is live streaming on the web right now is all CGI and sound effects too."
21:09:54 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
21:12:44 <Ilari> "Especially when Egyptian state media releases statements like this: '1628: Egyptian state TV channel al-Misriyah plays down protests, saying they are peaceful, and quotes a local official condemning Al Jazeera TV for "misinforming" the public.'"
21:13:25 <ais523> I wonder how Al Jazeera got the video, if Egypt has locked down communication
21:13:49 <ais523> yep, that would make sense
21:14:05 <pikhq> Egypt has locked down domestic ISPs and is very much controlling domestic media.
21:14:20 <pikhq> Al Jazeera is out of Qatar.
21:14:42 <elliott> why did nobody tell me that making a Linux distro is difficult? :)
21:15:01 <ais523> journalists normally do have satellite uplinks
21:15:51 -!- SomeEnthusiast has changed nick to copumpkin.
21:17:42 * elliott idly wonders if gcc 3 was more stable than gcc 4 is
21:18:13 <elliott> gcc only supports out of tree builds, right?
21:18:46 <elliott> hmm, I wonder if it supports in-tree-subdirectory builds
21:18:53 <elliott> probably not, autohell sucks at those
21:19:14 <elliott> I wonder what gcc's NLS does
21:19:49 <quintopia> "Well, now that we will have all 6 million IPv4's from #Egypt available again. Lets procrastinate #ipv6 implementation?"
21:20:26 <elliott> hmm, I wonder if gold works well with static linking
21:20:29 <ais523> that joke's been made before in this channel
21:20:31 <copumpkin> individual universities have more than that
21:22:05 <elliott> does anyone know when gcc is going to start including c++ code?
21:22:24 <pikhq> quintopia: Hey, look, it's a day's worth!
21:24:50 <elliott> --with-boot-ldflags=-static
21:24:57 <elliott> that won't link with uclibc though
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21:38:59 <Sgeo> cheater-, you just missed it in #haskell
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22:27:15 <zzo38> The only other people in here who are interested in TeXnicard are the people who never type anything on here anymore but are still on here.
22:28:15 <elliott> zzo38: you removed my logs from the topic :(
22:28:42 <zzo38> elliott: I don't think so. I think they are still there.
22:28:51 <zzo38> quintopia: Can you write Egyptian hieroglyphics?
22:28:55 <elliott> When you set the topic you took them out.
22:29:07 <zzo38> elliott: Oops maybe I made a mistake.
22:29:49 <quintopia> herobrine forgives you and forgets you
22:30:11 <zzo38> quintopia: Can you type computer program in Egyptian hieroglyphics?
22:31:27 <zzo38> What is herobrine?
22:33:44 <ais523> that does the first set of logs in the topic
22:33:46 <ais523> clog does the second set
22:33:53 <quintopia> zzo38: not currently. make it happen.
22:36:50 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: how stable is the gcc 4.5 series? <-- hm. Some bugs I know of
22:37:11 <Vorpal> elliott, about the same. Just different bugs than 4.4
22:37:23 <elliott> 4.5 removed protoize/deprotoize though :(
22:37:44 <Vorpal> elliott, I seen code that works in 4.4 and miscompiles in 4.5. And I seen the reverse of that too.
22:37:49 <zzo38> What is protoize/deprotoize?
22:37:55 <elliott> zzo38: converts k&r/c89 prototypes
22:38:03 <ais523> Vorpal: is the code itself broken? or is gcc?
22:38:28 <Vorpal> ais523, in one case I'm fairly sure gcc is to blame. In the other case I have no clue. The other case works under gccc 4.5
22:38:48 <Vorpal> ais523, I found a matching bug report for the one that broke with 4.5. Last I checked the bug still had no comments
22:38:56 <Vorpal> and no I don't have the link handy
22:38:58 <ais523> Vorpal: to be more precise, protoize is meant to convert a k&r C file to C89, and deprotoize does the opposite, by replacing function declarations
22:39:01 <Vorpal> I just switched to clang
22:39:09 <Vorpal> ais523, I know what protoize does
22:41:21 <elliott> hmm, I'm going to try buildroot; compiling gcc with uclibc manually seems like a pain
22:41:26 <elliott> although i'm not sure buildroot can even do that
22:42:43 <elliott> --with-boot-libs=LIBS Libraries for stage2 and later
22:42:43 <elliott> --with-boot-ldflags=FLAGS Linker flags for stage2 and later
22:43:16 <ais523> elliott: isn't Vorpal in UTC+1?
22:44:12 <Sgeo> I wish I were a changeling so I wouldn't have to eat
22:45:34 <Sgeo> This would be the point where my dad and step-mom decide that I'm no longer able to distinguish fantasy and reality
22:47:05 <Sgeo> [A long while ago, they were saying something. I was trying to convey the point that I might not be perfectly rational, and it makes no sense to ... I don't remember. Anyways, I said "I'm not a vulcan" and my dad apparently thought that I thought vulcans are real
22:48:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, might I advise that you use the brick/brain transplant on them?
22:49:12 -!- BMG has joined.
22:49:57 <elliott> The famed Vulcan Brick/Brain Transplant.
22:50:20 <quintopia> also, you know, learn to like eating. as crazy as they are, you don't need to be crazy too.
22:50:44 <quintopia> (yes, I know that's a hard thing to do. no, I'm not trying to trivialize it)
22:50:50 <elliott> Theory: Sgeo's (step)parents are the actual worst cooks in the world.
22:50:56 <elliott> In the most literal sense possible.
22:51:28 <Sgeo> I'm the one who makes the pasta I eat at night
22:52:06 <quintopia> oh pasta. good choice. i could really go for a fresh light seafood pasta salad right now
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22:52:59 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> The famed Vulcan Brick/Brain Transplant. ← this is actually how they do the whole "logical" thing.
22:55:24 <Sgeo> "It's pretty ridiculous, don't you think? The two of us being outsmarted by a chunk of crystal?"
22:55:55 <Sgeo> Well, rouge cells in the body often seem to outsmart a whole lot of very intelligent people...
22:56:37 <quintopia> the revolution is being televised.
22:56:42 <elliott> Sgeo: CANCER IS NOT SMARTER THAN PEOPLE.
22:56:50 <elliott> Sgeo: CANCER IS NOT SMARTER THAN PEOPLE.
22:56:51 <elliott> Sgeo: CANCER IS NOT SMARTER THAN PEOPLE.
22:56:52 <elliott> Sgeo: CANCER IS NOT SMARTER THAN PEOPLE.
22:56:52 <elliott> Sgeo: CANCER IS NOT SMARTER THAN PEOPLE.
22:56:53 <elliott> Sgeo: CANCER IS NOT SMARTER THAN PEOPLE.
22:57:13 <Sgeo> elliott, well, the use of the word "outsmart" in the context used in the episode is similar
22:57:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Make sure you tell her that it is actually one of the few things that has been demonstrated to reyouthismootherate skin.
22:57:37 <elliott> I want to `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> [...] reyouthismootherate [...]
22:57:43 <elliott> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> [...] reyouthismootherate [...]
22:58:04 <HackEgo> 283) <Phantom_Hoover> [...] reyouthismootherate [...]
22:58:09 <HackEgo> 181) <Gregor-W> You people. You people are so stupid. I'm making a SOCIOLOGICAL statement here.
22:58:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, then spin her an elaborate yarn about the cosmetics companies keeping it down to increase costs, and the FDA being bribed into advising against it.
22:59:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Under no circumstances mention that the actual reason it isn't used is because it is a fairly strong irritant.
22:59:35 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, why do you think I'm an asshole?
22:59:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, because I am an asshole and I have problems with dealing with the fact that other people think differently to me.
23:01:08 <elliott> Sgeo: She thinks Vitamin C cures cancer, this is even more innocuous than mocking homeopaths.
23:01:39 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I think he's asking me why I'd assume he'd do such a thing, which is a simple humour fail.
23:01:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Hell, I approve of this plan :P
23:02:28 <Phantom_Hoover> OTOH, I really can't see Sgeo forgoing a relationship to make a (hilarious) point.
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23:04:33 <elliott> http://nibble.develsec.org/hg/toys/file/d4f38103fa4e/passman Spot the security hole.
23:06:32 <zzo38> This game I received in the mail a few days ago, it comes with eleven copies of the rules.
23:06:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's the fact that the unencrypted file is there until the user quits vim.
23:07:07 <elliott> Admittedly, nobody can read it, but if you have someone with your user account...
23:07:13 <elliott> (but without your GPG passphrase)
23:07:25 <Vorpal> elliott, "TMPFILE=~/.passmandb.$$" is an obvious issue in any case. Sure it is in the same user's dir
23:07:37 <elliott> Vorpal: why's that an issue? apart from what i mentioned?
23:08:29 <Vorpal> elliott, well, the collision risk in theory of another program creating that file. For example a malicious exploit of another software.
23:08:39 <Vorpal> you should never do temporary files that way
23:09:49 <elliott> Vorpal: Unfortunately I don't see a _good_ way to support saving with vim.
23:09:52 <pikhq> “The court also orders Hotz to "retrieve any Circumvention Devices or any information relating thereto which Hotz has previously delivered or communicated to the Defendants or any third parties." ”
23:09:52 <elliott> I don't think it can save to stdout.
23:10:00 <Vorpal> elliott, well why vim then
23:10:04 <pikhq> Yes, Geohotz is being ordered to remove data from the Internet.
23:10:09 <Vorpal> elliott, maybe vim isn't the right tool for that jobe
23:10:17 <elliott> Vorpal: For looking at and editing a file?
23:10:22 <elliott> Vorpal: Emacs can't save to stdout either.
23:10:41 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah but maybe this is the wrong solution for a password manager
23:10:45 <Vorpal> elliott, that is what I'm saying
23:11:03 <elliott> Because vim and Emacs have a simple deficiency that is annoying in more cases than just this?
23:11:15 <Vorpal> elliott, and every other editor I know apart from ed possibly
23:11:45 <Vorpal> elliott, workable suggestions I see so far: fuse encrypted file system, specialised program for the task. Patch the editor
23:12:06 <Vorpal> elliott, heck you might be able to do this to the *scratch* buffer of emacs somehow
23:12:18 <elliott> (1) Encrypted file system would work, but then you could just use vim directly. I don't think they support every-FS-operation passphrases like this does.
23:12:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, you are saying that to edit an encrypted file you need to mount an encrypted FUSE filesystem?
23:12:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not saying it is a good solution.
23:12:43 <elliott> joe, at least, can save to /dev/stdout.
23:12:44 <Vorpal> but one that would work
23:12:57 <Vorpal> elliott, hm but doesn't that point to the terminal
23:13:01 <Vorpal> elliott, where the user is editing
23:13:05 <Vorpal> otherwise editing might be hard
23:13:10 <elliott> Vorpal: You save-and-edit in one go.
23:13:18 <elliott> Vorpal: You want it to read from stdin and save to stdout.
23:13:25 -!- zzo38 has left (?).
23:13:35 <Vorpal> elliott, and where do you see the file in the editor so you can edit it? /dev/tty?
23:13:48 <pikhq> He is also ordered to remove any form of data storage with these "circumvention devices" to court custody.
23:13:50 <elliott> Uhhh, you do realise that curses etc. don't look at stdin/stdout...?
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23:14:02 <Vorpal> elliott, actually I didn't know that.
23:14:05 <pikhq> I strongly suggest that he go and demand to be impounded.
23:14:06 <Vorpal> elliott, guess it makes sense
23:14:10 <ais523> elliott: sure? I thought curses did use stdin/stdout by default
23:14:12 <elliott> AFAIK they use /dev/tty exclusively.
23:14:14 <ais523> although you can point it anywhere
23:14:16 <elliott> If they don't, well, that's a bug.
23:14:30 <ais523> elliott: I'm writing a program atm in which I direct ncurses into a pipe
23:14:52 <elliott> ais523: most curses programs won't let you do that
23:14:57 <elliott> since they do all sorts of "foo is a tty" checks
23:15:16 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/f87p6/what_is_your_most_controversial_opinion/?sort=controversial
23:15:36 <ais523> Vorpal: encoding ttyrecs from an unrelated format
23:15:45 <ais523> I need to convert it into a sequence of vt100 codes
23:15:49 <ais523> which is what ncurses does
23:15:52 <Phantom_Hoover> "Children should be driven to have an intense fear of adults." "Why?" "So that they will behave themselves."
23:16:19 <elliott> "That homosexuality is wrong, and is no more in-born than pedophilia." ;; this is hilarious because paedophilia /is/ born-in
23:16:31 <quintopia> people actually implement that policy with their kids :/
23:16:39 <elliott> (and also because the morality of homosexuality has nothing to do with whether it's born-in or not, but whatever)
23:17:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/f87p6/what_is_your_most_controversial_opinion/c1e3vuc?context=1
23:17:21 <Phantom_Hoover> But yes, it pleases me that the controversial ones are all the bigoted ones.
23:17:40 <elliott> "I believe a mother should be able to kill their baby without any legal repercussions." <-- I am fairly sure that 90% of the posts in this thread are trolls.
23:19:21 <quintopia> here's one of mine that is controversial but not bigoted: babies are not people. they do not earn their personhood for many many months.
23:20:10 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, what do you define as the difference between "baby" and "person" in terms of rights, etc.
23:20:32 <quintopia> rights? babies have no more rights than pets.
23:20:46 <elliott> That's stupid and you're stupid. (<-- my reasoned opinion)
23:21:03 <quintopia> but they can have "potential rights" in expectation of the day when they become people
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23:21:51 <ais523> if you want a controversial opinion: people should never have any responsibilities at all, except the ones they take on them through choice
23:22:02 <ais523> people don't have a choice on whether to be born, thus they shouldn't be punished for it
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23:22:33 <elliott> ais523: isn't another way to solve that to offer suicide as a respectable option at every point?
23:22:47 <elliott> that way, people can avoid any responsibilities without repercussion, but society can stay mostly the same as it is
23:23:29 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, well, yes, but you do, inevitably, end up sponging off society at some point, and you need to make things break even otherwise you end up going to hell in a handbasket.
23:23:39 <quintopia> elliott: like the right to health insurance and life insurance etc. things that ensure they get the best shot at becoming people.
23:23:46 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: surely it's society's responsibility to not create people unless they can support them?
23:24:03 <elliott> quintopia: OK, so is it ok if I keep my baby on a leash?
23:24:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I mean a literal leash. 24/7.
23:24:31 <ais523> it's pretty common to avoid accidents with children near dangerous places like roads or trains
23:24:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I don't think it's illegal to keep a pet on a leash 24/7
23:25:01 <elliott> and quintopia said babies have only the same rights as pets apart from, uh, "potential rights"
23:25:36 <ais523> elliott: it probably /is/, actually
23:25:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, you're perfectly entitled to keep your baby on a leash as things stand.
23:25:46 <ais523> pets are rarely leashed indoors, doing so might lead to trouble
23:25:54 <ais523> and apparently keeping a cat indoors 24/7 is a really bad thing to do
23:25:55 <elliott> ais523: hmm, I can believe that, but it seems an odd thing to have a law for
23:25:58 <elliott> unless it's forbidden by some generic law
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23:26:07 <ais523> elliott: generic animal cruelty laws, I think
23:26:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I think that would count as child abuse, definitely
23:26:23 <ais523> being confined to a single location for too long is bad for the health of pretty much anything but rabbits and hamsters
23:26:24 <elliott> ais523: possibly, but if a pet is docile enough it might not even mind.
23:26:33 <ais523> (and hamsters need a wheel or something like that to practice running in)
23:26:35 <elliott> ais523: ha, rabbits are impossible to leash
23:26:38 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, if it's just decoration, it's hardly child abuse.
23:26:45 <quintopia> in general i feel like if your baby is lithe and fast enough to get away from you and not come back when you're outside, a leash is perfectly acceptable
23:26:47 <ais523> elliott: hmm, I'm sure there's /some/ way
23:26:53 <elliott> ais523: they drag you around for two miles and then wriggle out
23:27:02 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, yeah, that's exactly what a lot of people do.
23:27:07 <ais523> do you know this from personal experience?
23:27:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Although it's more with toddlers than babies because human babies suck.
23:27:17 <elliott> either it's too tight and they freak out and escape through the powers of magic, or they just hop out of it without thinking
23:27:25 <ais523> hmm, that's the first time I've laughed in over 24 hours, I think
23:27:27 <elliott> quintopia: I meant indoors.
23:27:43 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, my cat managed to get out of a collar somehow.
23:27:51 <quintopia> elliott: you would be stupid to do that. you can create fenced off areas indoors.
23:28:01 <elliott> quintopia: plenty of parents are stupid, abusive, etc.
23:28:04 <elliott> that's why babies have rights.
23:28:22 <quintopia> plenty of pet owners are abusive too
23:28:29 <elliott> quintopia: ok, here's a question: _why_ do babies not have rights in your view?
23:29:21 <quintopia> they do have rights. as many rights as any other living non-person.
23:29:26 <Phantom_Hoover> More seriously, they obviously don't qualify for full human rights because most human rights don't actually make very much sense in the context of babies.
23:29:36 <elliott> quintopia: why do they not have the same rights as people?
23:29:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Eh... there are plenty of mentally retarded adults.
23:30:31 <quintopia> and i should hope those adults receive rights that make sense for them given their abilities
23:30:48 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, yes, and upholding the freedom of speech of someone who is incapable of communication is not a very pressing issue.
23:30:55 <elliott> quintopia: give me an example of a people right that you wouldn't give to babbies
23:31:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Certainly. But there is no reason to _deny_ them such.
23:31:07 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: hmm, shouldn't they have a right to have people attempt to find a way to communicate with them?
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23:31:18 <ais523> many people in comas did end up being able to communicate eventually
23:31:18 <elliott> i don't believe marriage is a right
23:31:29 <ais523> elliott: what about the right of free association?
23:31:30 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, it is according to the universal declaration.
23:31:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I don't agree.
23:31:37 <oerjan> elliott: the UN declaration says it is
23:31:59 <ais523> marriage is a special case, really
23:32:10 <elliott> <ais523> elliott: what about the right of free association?
23:32:28 <elliott> marriage is just a religious ritual that has become an ill-defined legal ritual
23:32:33 <Phantom_Hoover> [[i think homosexuality is the same as pedophillia, zoophillia, necrophillia and the like. in all these cases, you cant help who or what youre attracted to. so why are the latter seen as disgusting? they are all "sexualities" as far as im concerned.]]
23:32:58 <elliott> Civil unions make sense, marriage doesn't; I'm fine with people getting married, but IMO it should be a matter of church.
23:33:04 <Phantom_Hoover> They are actually incapable of seeing the difference between sex between two consenting adults and between adults and children, animals and corpses.
23:33:08 <elliott> And the government doesn't need any part in it.
23:33:21 <ais523> is necrophilia actually illegal, btw?
23:33:24 <elliott> All the legal benefits that marriage grants should be available to pretty much any group of more than one person.
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23:33:38 <quintopia> well, i don't really see anything immoral about necrophilia if the corpse consented before death
23:33:43 <ais523> not that it makes a whole lot of sense
23:33:58 <elliott> I don't see why the person's consent matters for necrophilia.
23:34:03 <elliott> it's not like there's a soul in that corpse.
23:34:18 <quintopia> elliott: it's a matter of respect for the person's friends and relations
23:34:18 <ais523> many people before their death care about what happens to their corpse afterwards
23:34:28 <ais523> hmm, should a person's corpse be considered one of their possessions, and not inherited?
23:34:29 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well, yes, but good luck getting anyone else agreeing that corpses are lumps of meat with no special significance.
23:34:36 <elliott> ais523: I don't care what they care about
23:34:59 <elliott> ais523: would you let people set it up so that after they die, a vote is counted for a party they name every single election?
23:35:06 <elliott> after all, they probably care about what happens to the world after they're gone
23:35:11 <ais523> elliott: no, but specifically because of "party"
23:35:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, it's a bit dickish to ignore someone's wishes after they die; surely you support the idea of wills?
23:35:24 <ais523> I think I vaguely agree with the idea in general, but not that implementation in particular
23:35:25 <elliott> ais523: OK, assume there's a perfect way for anyone to express their political preferences as a formula
23:35:35 <elliott> that can be given the election info to decide a vote perfectly
23:35:48 <ais523> really, what would be more useful would be to give yet unborn people the right to vote retroactively
23:35:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, certainly, but I don't think your corpse should be considered a possession.
23:36:00 <ais523> that'd help stop people screwing up the world for future generations
23:36:05 <ais523> but I can't think of any way to implement that at all
23:36:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Burial is incredibly wasteful, for one.
23:36:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Why is your corpse less yours than your house or your bank account?
23:36:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Shrug. I don't believe you own the air in your house.
23:36:49 <elliott> It's a bit of an arbitrary distinction.
23:36:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That was an abortive attempt at trying to explain myself.
23:37:14 <elliott> ais523: with voting machines written in Feather, obviously
23:37:27 <Phantom_Hoover> (I suppose you could own a bag of air, but if you let it diffuse into the atmosphere you've probably lost any right to it.)
23:37:31 <ais523> elliott: even Feather can't do that
23:37:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I kind of see corpses as part of your "environment" like air.
23:37:47 <ais523> I mean, what it would do would be to speculatively let history play out to see what the votes would be
23:37:59 <ais523> and then rewind history, apply the votes, and let it run again
23:38:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Can you own the air in your house? (Assume the house is perfectly sealed.)
23:38:22 <ais523> and Feather isn't /that/ integrated with the real world
23:38:31 <Phantom_Hoover> And I don't see even then why your corpse shouldn't be yours.
23:38:34 <elliott> ais523: OK, first, reimplement the universe in Feather ...
23:38:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I don't really have much justification for it, tbh.
23:39:05 <elliott> Oh joy: [[Rape is seriously overrated. If it's nonviolent, it's just unwanted sex. If a woman is unable to physically resist, she can comply and endure the sex, possibly even try to enjoy it (although that's a stretch). She can leave, take a morning-after pill, and notify the police. It would definitely be an aggravating and nerve-wracking situation, but not one that's "traumatic" or that will "ruin your life".
23:39:06 <elliott> I especially hate it when rape is put on the same level as violent assault or murder, they are nowhere near on the same level in terms of the extent of damage and the permanence of it.]]
23:39:07 <elliott> Why am I reading this thread.
23:39:17 <quintopia> i say yes. let's let people seal their houses perfectly and build their own algae gardens to purify it and never let in any bad air
23:39:41 <elliott> quintopia: yes, and then cut off their phone line so that they have no communication with the outside world
23:39:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Then make health idiots pay for the uncontaminated air.
23:39:54 <quintopia> in the future, when pollution has destroyed the surface, it will be common :P
23:39:55 <elliott> hell, the hole that the cable goes through probably has tiny gaps!
23:40:08 <elliott> quintopia: An underground biodome is more likely :P
23:40:27 <quintopia> elliott: yea probs, but my way would make a better movie
23:40:39 <Phantom_Hoover> You can't hollow out a ten-metre cave over the course of an afternoon.
23:40:52 <elliott> "reddit: now available in kazoo form
23:40:52 <elliott> By popular demand, reddit kazoos are now available! We heard your thousands, nay, hundreds of calls for an official reddit kazoo. In fact, over the past few months it's become difficult to wade through the reddit feedback mailbox because it looks like this:
23:40:52 <elliott> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_SMII3qiVCz8/TUHJGNApNLI/AAAAAAAAAWQ/0qQDe91RNSw/s1600/kazoofeedback.png
23:41:17 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> You can't hollow out a ten-metre cave over the course of an afternoon.
23:41:25 <elliott> the earth is going to be uninhabitable over the course of an afternoon?
23:41:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Of course, there's a thread at the top of r/Minecraft stating that Mojang should sue them.
23:42:09 <elliott> They should stop using the logo and clarify that they're not official, but apart from that it's fine.
23:42:15 <elliott> Although using the texture pack is iffy.
23:42:32 <elliott> Hmm, their furnace texture is different, at least.
23:44:10 <elliott> Seriously though... [[Rape is seriously overrated. If it's nonviolent, it's just unwanted sex. If a woman is unable to physically resist, she can comply and endure the sex, possibly even try to enjoy it (although that's a stretch). She can leave, take a morning-after pill, and notify the police. It would definitely be an aggravating and nerve-wracking situation, but not one that's "traumatic" or that will "ruin your life".]]
23:44:22 <elliott> I am unable to comprehend the moronicness required to make that statement.
23:44:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OH GOD THIS ONE IS THE WORST
23:45:10 <elliott> [[That Oasis > The Beatles]]
23:45:27 <elliott> I want to report that comment
23:45:57 <quintopia> eh, there are a lot of bands better than the beatles. oasis are good competitors at least, though i can't say I'd say that
23:46:07 <elliott> oasis are a terrible, terrible band.
23:46:13 <elliott> I don't even like the Beatles that much, but come on.
23:46:30 * Phantom_Hoover has never heard one of their songs, but hates them on general principle.
23:46:30 <elliott> Oh goody, they broke up. I wasn't aware.
23:49:39 <pikhq> elliott: "Rape is seriously overrated", eh?
23:49:45 <pikhq> That's pretty retarded.
23:50:25 <ais523> pikhq: the sentence itself isn't retarded, because as Phantom_Hoover pointed out, it's ambiguous and the natural meaning isn't an insane opinion at all; but the paragraph itself is atrocious
23:50:28 <quintopia> haha. pretty retarded. good one. understatement is an underestimated form of humor
23:53:34 <elliott> no, there is no limit to my tastelessness, thank you for asking
23:54:48 <quintopia> rape? you mean rape me? the nirvana song? yeah probably was
23:55:42 <Sgeo> Yes, Bashir, it's 100% A-OK to just talk about your patients medical stuff while identifying them by name
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23:56:57 <elliott> I think Sgeo is going to ruin DS9 for me.
23:57:32 <elliott> ais523: hmm, i have this shell script that's sourced by stuff on the system, but it could be installed into any one of a number of places
23:57:43 <elliott> ais523: if it were just a program, I'd just use its name, and rely on $PATH
23:57:49 <elliott> ais523: but it's not, it's something other shell scripts source
23:57:55 <elliott> any ideas how to avoid making people specify the full path?
23:58:09 <ais523> doesn't source respect $PATH?
23:58:21 <ais523> if not, you could probably make it somehow
23:59:22 <elliott> ais523: problem is, it would be useless to call this program from the command-line
23:59:25 <elliott> so it's cluttering the path a little
23:59:39 <ais523> that's a pretty weird problem you have
23:59:59 <ais523> you need something that works exactly like $PATH except it doesn't work like $PATH at all