00:00:46 <elliott> oerjan: http://moronlab.blogspot.com/2010/01/nock-maxwells-equations-of-software.html, continued in http://moronlab.blogspot.com/2010/01/urbit-functional-programming-from.html; relevantly, http://moronlab.blogspot.com/2010/01/decrement-in-reck.html
00:00:52 <elliott> the first and the last are all you are likely to be interested in
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00:04:14 <Sgeo> Blah at Nu being a very much non-Windows thing
00:05:51 <oerjan> that's the sound of my brain going "too much work"
00:06:25 <elliott> oerjan: well i think decrement is quite simple
00:07:03 <elliott> if you can get a conditional going, and recursion
00:07:21 <elliott> also you have to construct the f such that *[s f] does it, not anything simpler :P
00:07:24 <elliott> i think the language is postfix kinda
00:13:28 <elliott> 12:51:02 <AnMaster> also -fpic NOT -fPIC
00:13:28 <elliott> 12:51:15 <AnMaster> the lower case version is better on some platforms iirc
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00:14:17 <elliott> 12:56:11 <AnMaster> pikhq, well the difference is slight
00:14:17 <elliott> 12:56:18 <AnMaster> also x86-64 is the norm nowdyas
00:14:18 <elliott> 12:56:25 <AnMaster> for linux
00:15:38 <elliott> 13:04:06 <AnMaster> <cpressey> At any rate, it's built. best not to think any more about it, right? :) <-- wrong. You always try to figure out *why* something unexpected happened
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00:22:02 <elliott> 09:27:44 <MissPiggy> FP is STUPID!!!!!!
00:22:03 <elliott> 09:28:02 <MissPiggy> anyone that wants to do functional programming without LAMBDA has lots his MARBLES
00:22:03 <elliott> 09:28:19 <MissPiggy> it's no coindicendec that LAMBDA is an anagram of MARBLES
00:22:20 <elliott> oerjan: you know, i don't think j-invariant is coming back...
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00:29:33 <Sgeo> quintopia, fun game
00:30:08 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSJBeV2hNUE
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00:31:55 <Sgeo> The music in that video is unfamiliar to me
00:32:53 <cheater-> is a rather obvious obstacle to any adventurer, but there are several
00:32:53 <cheater-> ways to deal with one. Probably the most obvious method of getting
00:32:53 <cheater-> past a door is to try to open it; to do that, just try to walk into it
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00:33:03 <cheater-> I FIND NETHACK IS NOT VERY REALISTIC
00:34:06 <oerjan> THAT'S JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T TESTED THAT METHOD ON SUFFICIENTLY MANY _REAL_ DOORS
00:34:12 <quintopia> i find *insert video game* not very realistic
00:34:25 <cheater-> oerjan: usually doesn't work :(
00:34:56 <oerjan> yes, but if you do it _enough_ times, head first, i'm sure your sense of reality will start adjusting.
00:35:28 <oerjan> the door might need some new hinges too
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00:36:50 <quintopia> oerjan: if it works in nethack, it works on the first try
00:37:15 <quintopia> conclusion: nethack adventurer is THE JUGGERNAUT, BITCH
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00:38:09 <oerjan> it works on the first try in reality too. it's the repetitions that are a bitch.
00:38:35 <Sgeo> "Will you please stop saying you're sorry?" "Sorry"
00:38:40 <Sgeo> I can imagine doing that myself
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00:41:26 * oerjan guesses today's square root of minus garfield was also inevitable.
00:41:57 <pikhq> ... \sqrt{-garfield}?
00:42:12 <oerjan> http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/
00:42:24 <Sgeo> quintopia, DS9
00:43:05 <Vorpal> summary of dwarf fortress after having played it for an afternoon: kind of like minecraft but with the micromanagement of widelands and the difficulty and GUI of nethack
00:43:07 <quintopia> oerjan: do they frequently feature bad puns?
00:43:23 <Vorpal> or should I say UI rather than GUI perhaps
00:43:39 <oerjan> quintopia: they have an overly long gag based on the format you see there
00:43:51 <oerjan> and other puns too, probably
00:43:52 <Vorpal> pikhq, you never heard of \sqrt{-garfield} before?
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00:44:17 <Sgeo> If I tell pikhq to read the entire Mezzacotta archive, will he do it?
00:44:35 <oerjan> no. he might _try_, perhaps.
00:45:25 <pikhq> http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=9 *grin*
00:45:29 <pikhq> Sgeo: Not only no but fuck no.
00:45:48 <pikhq> Sgeo: I am not infinitely prolonged.
00:45:57 * Sgeo hears his dad shouting on the phone at his step-mom
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00:48:26 <Vorpal> pikhq, huh. I was pretty sure you took part of discussions mentioning it before...
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01:40:01 <Sgeo> Can I make fun of coppro now?
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01:47:06 <variable> "On a clear disk, you can seek forever." -- HP-UX manual, circa 1985
01:50:17 <variable> http://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2011/2/104395-puzzled-parsing-partitions
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02:06:52 <tswett> How do I ask this question in Finnish?
02:07:12 <oerjan> `translatefromto en fi How do I ask this question in Finnish?
02:07:12 <tswett> (Heimo, Herobrine. Even though "heimo" isn't a greeting.)
02:07:32 <HackEgo> Miten kysyä tätä kysymystä suomeksi?
02:09:00 <tswett> Hm, I like what "mys" means in Swedish. What's the equivalent Norwegian word?
02:09:17 <oerjan> `translatefromto sv en mys
02:09:31 <tswett> Because it apparently means "coziness".
02:11:07 <oerjan> `translatefromto sv no mysigt
02:11:16 <tswett> That doesn't look like a cognate, but then again, the English word "do" doesn't look like the Spanish word "hacer" even though they are cognates.
02:11:33 <oerjan> um it's a cognate to "cozy", surely
02:11:36 <Lymia> This channel is full of natrual language geeks too?
02:11:56 <oerjan> Lymia: there's even a real linguist here (hi augur)
02:11:58 <tswett> It doesn't look like one to "mys", though.
02:12:06 <tswett> But yeah, it's almost certainly a cognate to "cozy".
02:12:13 <Lymia> I thought people usually said that about Japanese.
02:12:26 <tswett> augur: hi! Are you one of those one-language linguists? Not that there's anything wrong with that, I'm just wondering.
02:12:39 <tswett> Lymia: people also say that Finnish is just a cipher of Japanese.
02:12:49 <oerjan> Lymia: there's a certain similarity between them, syllable structure and agglutination
02:13:00 <augur> tswett: what do you mean one language linguists
02:13:09 <oerjan> augur: THAT YOU ONLY SPEAK ENGLISH
02:13:12 <tswett> Monolingual linguists.
02:13:23 <augur> oh, do i only speak one language? yes.
02:13:40 <Lymia> I've never heard of that one before.
02:13:55 <tswett> It seems... wise for a linguist to know multiple languages.
02:13:58 <Lymia> Then again, the non-computer science related communities I go to are usually anime related.
02:14:26 <tswett> But eh, if just knowing English works out for you.
02:14:39 <tswett> (An if-only sentence. There is no then, only an if.)
02:14:42 <oerjan> augur: i mean you blather on about syntactic typed calculi and stuff, but do you _ever_ discuss in japanese like the real geeks here? nope.
02:14:55 <augur> tswett: knowing another language isnt terribly important.
02:15:11 <augur> why would i discuss japanese
02:15:57 <oerjan> augur: although this outsider _does_ feel it's somewhat suspicious to call yourself a linguist without any _actual_ breadth of language experience
02:16:20 <tswett> Linguistics sure isn't *about* knowing lots of languages.
02:16:26 <tswett> The one to oerjan's left.
02:16:35 <augur> well its not like i dont have experience with other languages
02:16:44 <oerjan> THAT ALMOST ALLITERATES
02:16:48 <augur> i just dont speak any well enough to say i speak them at all
02:16:59 <oerjan> hagb4rd: you mean they're talking out their asses?
02:17:22 <hagb4rd> they're talking out of anything they can
02:18:04 <tswett> But knowing only English for a linguist is like knowing only about cats for a biologist. Sure, lots of facts that are true of cats are true of life in general. But many are not; if you only study cats, you never know what might be present in other animals.
02:18:09 <oerjan> augur: good, good. i guess.
02:18:30 <augur> tswett: whoa whoa you're making the wrong analogy
02:18:41 <augur> knowing only english for a linguist is like BEING only a human for a biologist
02:18:53 <tswett> I imagine I am; I'm not the linguist here.
02:19:01 <augur> i can tell you lots of things about other languages' grammars
02:19:18 <augur> more than most speakers know about the grammars
02:19:25 <augur> i just cant speak them
02:19:54 <tswett> Ah, then you do know other languages well, for the purposes that you use them for.
02:20:09 <augur> no, i dont _know_ them in any real sense
02:20:17 <augur> i know facts about them
02:20:55 * oerjan is reminded of The Mathematician's Lament
02:21:02 <augur> just like lots of people know facts about caesar and brutus
02:21:08 <augur> but noone _knows_ caesar or brutus
02:21:36 <tswett> I met Caesar once. I put him on my salad. He was delicious.
02:21:44 <tswett> hagb4rd: are you making an analogy out of my surname?
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02:52:28 <Sgeo> http://manageddreams.com/osmpbb/
02:53:03 <quintopia> sgeo: is it blue with a gold stripe across the head?
02:53:14 <quintopia> i lost my sad a little while back, been looking all over for it
02:54:01 <oerjan> ^ul (:::***)(~(~(:a~*):^))~(a)~^^SS
02:54:02 <fungot> ((((~(~(:a~*):^))))) ...out of stack!
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03:14:07 <oerjan> ^ul ((:::***)(~(~(:a~*):^))~(a)~^^())((:^(:)~*(*)*a~a~*(((T)(F))~*^(^)~^^^S!)~a*^)~:a~**^):^
03:14:07 <fungot> ((~(~(:a~*):^)))(~(~(:a~*):^))~(~(:a~*):^)~(:a~*):^(:a~*):a~*(:a~*):a~*(:a~*):a~*(:a~*):a~*(:a~*):a~*(:a~*):a~*(:a~*):a~*(:a~*):a~*(:a~*):a~*(:a~*):a~*(:a~*):a~*(:a~*):a~*(:a~*):a~*(:a~*):a~*(:a~*):a~*(:a~*):a~*(:a~*):a~*(:a~*):a~*(:a~*):a~*(:a~*):a~*(:a~*):a~*(:a~*):a~*(:a~*):a~*(:a~*):a~*(:a~*):a~*(:a~*):a~*(:a~*):a~*(:a ...too much output!
03:14:27 <oerjan> ^ul ((:::***)(~(~(:a~*):^))~(a)~^^())((:^(:)~*(*)*a~a~*(((T)(F))~*^(^)~^^^!S!)~a*^)~:a~**^):^
03:14:28 <fungot> FFFTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF ...out of time!
03:56:27 <quintopia> you need to stop it with the ugly-ass backtick "face" or at least put a space in front of it
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04:09:45 <kfr> <oerjan> [00:33:42] afaik we don't have any indians or chinese here, though
04:09:45 <kfr> <oerjan> [00:34:26] hm wait that was during european day wasn't it
04:09:58 <kfr> Uhm yeah it was night for east and south Asia by that time already
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04:13:55 <oerjan> i think my mind triggered on the mention of "2 billions" --> china + india
04:15:15 <kfr> It was supposed to be Europe + Africa + west Asia :p
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05:26:25 <Sgeo> "The enzo" wtf
05:26:36 <Sgeo> http://www.wrapanap.com/order.html
05:29:18 <oerjan> same color as the car?
05:30:46 * pikhq is too good at procrastination.
05:30:59 <pikhq> I have been home for 8 hours. I have done nothing so far.
05:31:07 <pikhq> 8. Fucking. Hours.
05:32:06 <copumpkin> pikhq: you could get outraged over sony's lawsuits a bit more
05:32:17 <copumpkin> that's a fairly productive pastime
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05:36:07 <pikhq> copumpkin: Nothing new on that front, so *shrug*
05:36:18 <Sgeo> Why is there a car named after the Active Worlds CEO?
05:37:27 <Sgeo> http://wiki.activeworlds.com/index.php?title=User:E_N_Z_O&oldid=18626
05:37:55 <pikhq> Ah, Anki, how you make it so easy for a having-done-nothing day to have actual accomplishments in it.
05:39:30 <pikhq> Anki is a fairly good SRS (spaced repetition system) program...
05:39:35 <pikhq> I use it for studying Japanese.
05:40:06 <pikhq> Yes, flashcards with an algorithm that prevents you from wasting too much time.
05:40:49 <pikhq> Basically, it attempts to model when you're likely to forget a card, so that it only shows up when seeing the card will actually be helpful.
05:41:02 <pikhq> Rather than, say, showing the same damned cards every day.
05:45:44 <pikhq> I find it almost *necessary* for learning kanji.
05:48:50 <Sgeo> I'm not going to be a double red cell donor
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05:54:26 <pikhq> copumpkin: BTW, thank you so much for cluing me in on Heisig. It's been about a year since, and, well, it's been amazing.
05:54:45 <pikhq> Sgeo: Heisig's "Remembering the Kanji".
05:54:54 <pikhq> Sgeo: Also essential.
05:55:17 <pikhq> Sgeo: Learn (roughly) the meaning and (exactly) the writing of the commonly used kanji!
05:55:56 <copumpkin> pikhq: no problem :) glad you made it through it! that's more than I did :P
05:56:11 <pikhq> Sgeo: I've gone from struggling to understand stuff for 2nd graders to struggling to understand ja.wikipedia.org courtesy of that.
05:56:47 <pikhq> And I read untranslated manga for pleasure now. Yay.
05:57:15 <copumpkin> spoken japanese and grammar are actually pretty easy
05:57:36 <pikhq> copumpkin: Quite a bit below my reading comprehension, but it's improved by leaps and bounds.
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06:18:14 <Sgeo> Why am I shocked by Moove still existing?
06:24:19 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5uptErhetY how did this embed itself into my subconsious so quickly that when I found it on YouTube, I was certain it was a different song
06:25:15 <Sgeo> I meant I thought that I thought what was playing in my head when I f... argh
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07:43:56 <evincar> Well, here I am, more than twelve hours later than I planned.
07:45:00 <oerjan> that's relatively lousy timing for this channel
07:45:36 <oerjan> wait, do you mean you've been traveling or something?
07:49:56 * pikhq shall go to sleep.
07:52:06 <oerjan> ^ul (()~:a(~^)*~(()(~(~(:a~*):^))(a))~*^^)(::**)~^
07:52:27 <oerjan> ^ul (()~:a(~^)*~(()(~(~(:a~*):^))(a))~*^^)(::**)~^(~aS:^):^
07:52:27 <fungot> ((((~(~(:a~*):^)))))()((::**)~^)() ...out of stack!
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07:54:55 <evincar> oerjan: No, I mean I told elliott to look at something I was talking about earlier with ais523, and that I'd be back in a couple hours after a nap. Twelve hours later...
07:55:08 <evincar> ...though not nearly all of that time was sleeping.
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08:04:32 <oerjan> ^ul (aS:):((:*)~^(::**)~^(:*)~^)^
08:05:24 <oerjan> ^ul (aS:):((:*)~^(::**)~^(:*)~^)^S
08:05:46 <oerjan> ^ul (aS:):((:*)~^(::**)~^(:*)~^)^(aS:^):^
08:05:46 <fungot> (:*)(::**)(:*)(aS:^)(aS:)
08:06:06 <oerjan> ^ul (aS:):((:*)~^(::**)~^(:*)~^)^(~aS:^):^
08:06:06 <fungot> (:*)(::**)(:*)(aS:)(aS:) ...out of stack!
08:09:33 <fungot> evincar: it can say " make this a bit and watch it toast? or decide the project is quite quixotic. that being said, it comes to mobile code it has good parts and bad parts. the dynamic environment
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08:29:14 <oerjan> ^ul (aS:):(:((0)(!(1)(!(2)(!(3)(_))))(^))~*^^!Sa(~^)*~a*(:)*^)((:*)~^(::**)~^(:*)~^)^(~aS:^):^
08:29:14 <fungot> 2(:*) ...out of stack!
08:30:09 <oerjan> ^ul (aS:):(:((0)(!(1)(!(2)(!(3)(_))))(^))~*^^!Sa(~^)*~a*(:)*^):((:*)~^(::**)~^(:*)~^)^(~aS:^):^
08:30:09 <fungot> 2(:*)3(::**)2(:*)(:((0)(!(1)(!(2)(!(3)(_))))(^))~*^^!Sa(~^)*~a*(:)*^)(:((0)(!(1)(!(2)(!(3)(_))))(^))~*^^!Sa(~^)*~a*(:)*^)(aS:)(aS:) ...out of stack!
08:32:18 <oerjan> ^ul (aS:):(:((0)(!(1)(!(2)(!(3)(_))))(^))~*^^!Sa(~^)*~a*(:)*^):((:*)~^(!())~^(:*:*)~^)^(~aS:^):^
08:32:18 <fungot> 2(:*)0(!()) ...bad insn!
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10:29:15 <Phantom_Hoover> 00:37:53 <elliott> oerjan: you know, i don't think j-invariant is coming back... ← we didn't think he was coming back when he was fax either.
10:29:51 <kfr> I know him from #haskell, was he a great contributor to this channel?
10:33:59 <Phantom_Hoover> That's a long story which I a) don't know the entirety of and b) can't be bothered recounting.
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12:09:54 <Ilari> Haha... Lagerhom apparently tried to make countdown to first RIR depletion but apparently the code is quite buggy...
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13:47:56 <elliott> 00:58:38 <Vorpal> summary of dwarf fortress after having played it for an afternoon: kind of like minecraft but with the micromanagement of widelands and the difficulty and GUI of nethack
13:48:05 <elliott> Vorpal: Er, DF is *much* more difficult than NetHack.
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13:50:23 <elliott> 02:22:49 <tswett> (Heimo, Herobrine. Even though "heimo" isn't a greeting.)
13:51:07 <elliott> 02:28:02 <tswett> augur: hi! Are you one of those one-language linguists? Not that there's anything wrong with that, I'm just wondering.
13:51:08 <elliott> and how many diseases do you have, resident doctor?
13:51:30 <ais523> hmm, you know when I couldn't access anything?
13:51:51 <ais523> when the system started working again, programs were working but Gnome was frozen (the shell, that is)
13:51:59 <elliott> ais523: don't say Gnome and shell in the same sentence
13:52:01 <ais523> so I had to log out via control-alt-backspace to get anything done
13:52:25 <elliott> 02:31:34 <oerjan> augur: although this outsider _does_ feel it's somewhat suspicious to call yourself a linguist without any _actual_ breadth of language experience
13:52:30 <ais523> it seems that that didn't work properly, I just got an automated email to tell me that I'd left gnome-panel running for over two days and it was killed automatically
13:52:42 <elliott> again... "Asking a linguist how many languages they know is like asking a doctor how many diseases they have."
13:53:13 <elliott> (OK, it's a fairly stupid aphorism)
13:54:37 <ais523> hmm, with "linguist" there, the analogy does actually hold up
13:54:50 <ais523> except that a doctor would be trying to get rid of diseases they had
13:55:00 <ais523> and a linguist wouldn't have any motive to forget languages they happened to know
13:55:17 <ais523> (although they wouldn't have a massive motive to learn new ones either)
13:55:18 <elliott> ais523: linguist != someone who knows languages
13:55:30 <elliott> meanwhile, off-topically, http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/odd/news/a300850/diddy-sued-for-causing-911-attack.html
13:55:40 <elliott> well, I suppose it's rather esoteric
13:56:18 <ais523> <elliott> ais523: linguist != someone who knows languages <--- I know, what about my comment would have given a different impression?
13:56:32 <ais523> hmm, that URL is pretty freakish as it is
13:56:42 <ais523> and not just because of the random string of hex (or possibly, letter+decimal)
13:56:46 <elliott> "A woman named Valerie Turks filed the suit against Diddy, whose real name is Sean Combs, alleging that he was the cause behind the collapse of the World Trade Centre in 2001 and stole a poker chip from her worth "100 zillions of dollars"."
13:57:02 <elliott> "[Diddy] went through Kim Porter and Rodney King and knocked down the WTC and then they all came and knocked my children down. Set me up to be on disability and disabled my baby. He put my baby in a wheelchair," Billboard quotes Turks as saying in her legal papers.
13:57:15 <ais523> elliott: you get lawsuits that silly once in a while
13:57:25 <ais523> there was one during the SCO vs. Novell case
13:57:29 <elliott> "- -and then for lunch, I knocked down the World Trade Centre -- but anyway, how was your day?"
13:57:43 <elliott> (debate: is World Trade Centre a correct spelling?)
13:57:59 <ais523> (not SCO vs. Novell itself, although that was pretty silly as it was; someone who was in prison at the time decided to try to intervene in the case)
13:58:15 <elliott> "It all started with tarsorrhaphy. Really." --Google
13:58:27 <elliott> ais523: heh, on which side?
13:58:34 <Sgeo> I saw something on Fark saying that Wikipedia had a redirect...
13:58:38 <fizzie> "Turks, who is asking for $900 billion dollars in child support and $100 billion dollars for 'loss of income', --" -- well, that sounds eminently reasonable! You can hardly raise a child with less.
13:58:50 <elliott> [[We created about 100 “synthetic queries”—queries that you would never expect a user to type, such as [hiybbprqag]. As a one-time experiment, for each synthetic query we inserted as Google’s top result a unique (real) webpage which had nothing to do with the query. Below is an example:]]
13:58:59 <elliott> imagine finding those before they revealed it :D
13:59:00 <ais523> elliott: they wanted to replace SCO in the case, on the basis that they were being incompetent
13:59:06 <elliott> heh: http://www.google.com/search?q=hiybbprqag
13:59:19 <ais523> elliott: it returns genuine results now
13:59:20 <elliott> hiybbprqag.com goes to a Google job site now
13:59:23 <ais523> mostly talking about the story in question
13:59:40 -!- elliott has set topic: For the discussion of hiybbprqag and mbzrxpgjys | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
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14:00:33 <elliott> delhipublicschool40 chdjob!
14:00:48 <ais523> hmm, apparently Comcast have moved some of their customers to IPv4/IPv6 dual stack
14:00:50 <elliott> what would happen if some poor sap really wanted to find information about these things?!
14:01:01 <ais523> the Slashdot comments say it's because they ran out of space in 10/8
14:01:08 <elliott> ais523: aren't Comcast terrible in every other aspect, though?
14:01:27 <fizzie> They did run out of space in 10/8 for their "control plane" network, and had to register public addresses for it.
14:01:32 <elliott> so, reddit has "joined" the Free Software Foundation, but I'm not sure what they mean
14:01:41 <fizzie> I also vaguely recall Comcast doing a largeish trial of 6rd.
14:01:51 <ais523> running out of space in a class A for your own control network is pretty impressive
14:01:52 <elliott> even though reddit is mostly open
14:02:05 <kfr> Isn't reddit full of ads?
14:02:14 <Sgeo> Games are ads!
14:02:43 <ais523> ooh, I got an advert for a Windows registry scanner
14:02:50 <ais523> I'm tempted to actually click on it just to see what will happen
14:03:03 <ais523> my theory is that it'll load in Wine, and scan the Wine registry, if I do
14:03:12 <elliott> [[By the way, your replies in this thread strongly suggest to me that you're trying to adjust your definition of "generalisation" to fit the responses, rather than taking them into account.]] <-- probability of them taking this seriously: 0
14:03:19 <Sgeo> I have to go to school, don't I?
14:03:19 <elliott> ais523: Erm, usually they don't actually scan the registry.
14:03:24 <fizzie> "This is a tremendous milestone for Comcast, cable operators, and the Internet community at large, and it is a critical milestone in our many years of work to prepare IPv6 to work seamlessly in a residential broadband Internet network. Each user has been delegated a /64 block of [--]."
14:03:25 <elliott> ais523: I would hide the Z: drive first. :p
14:03:37 <elliott> fizzie: BROUGHT TO YOU BY WOLFRAM RESEARCH
14:03:41 <ais523> yep, I'm unlikely to actually /do/ it
14:03:49 <ais523> I might also make a user for the purpose
14:04:03 <fizzie> Blah blah your "tremendous milestone for -- the Internet community at large"; there's a whole pile of ISPs that have been doing that for who knows how long.
14:04:13 <elliott> fizzie: lol, not in the US
14:04:22 <ais523> when I run closed-source Windows programs that I suspect are either a) potentially malware, or b) have ridiculous DRM, I use a separate user without write access to anywhere but /tmp, /var/tmp, and its own home dir
14:04:26 <elliott> even in the UK, it's non-trivial to find an IPv6 ISP
14:04:38 <fizzie> They're not smaller than the Comcast trial. :p
14:04:50 <fizzie> "On January 11th, 2011, our first 25 IPv6-enabled users came online in the Littleton, Colorado area."
14:05:03 <fizzie> (Okay, so they've expanded now to an unspecified, larger number, but still.)
14:05:05 <ais523> btw, MPLAB C30 definitely counts as ridiculous DRM
14:05:06 <elliott> Not even BE have IPv6, which is kind of annoying.
14:05:10 <ais523> mostly because it's GPLed
14:05:13 <Sgeo> http://my.opera.com/chooseopera/blog/2011/02/02/egypt-is-back-online-2
14:05:13 <elliott> ais523: all DRM counts as ridiculous DRM
14:05:20 <ais523> so patching the DRM out was surprisingly simple
14:05:38 <elliott> ais523: hmm, theory: GPLv4 will prohibit obfuscating the source
14:05:44 <elliott> so that DRM is always easy to remove
14:05:45 <ais523> elliott: GPLv2 did that
14:06:07 <ais523> yep, their definition of source excludes obfuscated source
14:06:18 <Sgeo> elliott, so idiots won't be allowed to program anymore?
14:06:36 <elliott> ais523: OK, new theory, taking into account the fact that the GPL is already crazy: GPLv4 will prohibit writing unreadable code
14:06:39 * Sgeo needs to go put clothing on and go to school
14:06:47 <elliott> GPLv5, then, will mandate the GNU coding standards be used, and that the code is eminently readable
14:07:02 <fizzie> GPLv6 will specify which fonts you are allowed to use when editing the code.
14:07:07 <elliott> GPLv6 will just be a requirement to hand your project over to the FSF>
14:07:07 <ais523> hmm... Ubuntu wants to upgrade the kernel from 2.6.32.28.31 to 2.6.32.28.32
14:07:13 <ais523> apparently as a security update
14:07:25 <kfr> Nice, that kernel is from like 2009
14:07:27 <kfr> Pretty recent
14:07:29 <ais523> that's the most minor version number bump I've ever seen for that sort of update
14:07:30 * elliott doesn't even see his updates
14:07:35 <elliott> they just go automatically
14:07:45 <elliott> ais523: that sounds like a local patch version
14:07:51 <elliott> I don't think kernel.org kernels come in such versions
14:07:55 <kfr> My router is still running .33 but it's been running for quite a while now so it's excusable
14:07:55 <fizzie> 2.6.32.28 was released in 2011-01-07.
14:08:00 <fizzie> That's not exactly "like 2009".
14:08:15 <ais523> kfr: well, I reboot every time I go home or to work
14:08:15 <elliott> "Not all updates can be installed" uh oh
14:08:19 <ais523> because it's fast enough anyway
14:08:33 <elliott> I need strong AI in my IRC client.
14:08:39 <fizzie> And the fifth number is Ubuntu-specific there.
14:08:53 <elliott> wait, is there a new major Ubuntu release?
14:08:57 <ais523> elliott: normally that's because two or more clash, and is relatively common in -proposed versions of Ubuntu, at least
14:09:05 <elliott> so why is it showing me the distribution upgrade screen?
14:09:06 <ais523> and no, those happen in April and October
14:09:18 <ais523> elliott: because the distribution updater is the only one that knows how to handle that sort of clash
14:09:27 <elliott> and now the regular one pops up
14:09:44 <ais523> sudo aptitude dist-upgrade from the terminal
14:09:51 <ais523> I'm not sure what the synaptic equivalent is
14:09:57 <elliott> dist-upgrade is NOT the same
14:10:14 <elliott> Upgrades installed packages to their most recent version, removing
14:10:14 <elliott> or installing packages as necessary. This command is less
14:10:14 <elliott> conservative than safe-upgrade and thus more likely to perform
14:10:14 <elliott> unwanted actions. However, it is capable of upgrading packages that
14:10:15 <elliott> safe-upgrade cannot upgrade.
14:10:18 <elliott> (it isn't actually called dist-upgrade)
14:10:26 <ais523> OK, it was renamed slightly
14:10:57 <elliott> update-manager --dist-upgrade
14:11:20 <kfr> Isn't it easier to use a rolling release distro? I always found this whole staged distro stuff somewhat irritating
14:11:38 <elliott> hmm, it wants to install ttf-droid
14:11:57 <elliott> i should really finish up kitten
14:12:00 <ais523> kfr: it depends on what you want to do; staged lets you control when your system is most likely to randomly break, which helps if you're using it for something important
14:12:00 <elliott> to avoid this ubuntu mayhem
14:12:39 <ais523> elliott: he or she asked why people would use a staged distro over a rolling release distro
14:12:43 <kfr> but I used Debian for quite a while
14:13:08 <elliott> because staged distros are often less hassle to manage, obviously... a rolling release distro with someone sane and conservative enough in charge works fine
14:13:27 <elliott> but e.g. Arch is run by crackheaded monkeys running off the cliff of stability into a gigantic pit of lava marked "THE FUTURE"
14:13:43 <kfr> I use Arch on my servers, the router and the notebook :D
14:14:00 <kfr> I run yes | pacman -Syu in a daily cronjob
14:14:03 <kfr> My good luck charm
14:14:55 <kfr> (it repeatedly broke stuff with PostgreSQL and Apache)
14:15:02 <kfr> (sites were down for days until I noticed that)
14:15:13 <elliott> of course what everyone should use is Kitten.
14:15:32 <elliott> because it's the only Linux distro that manages to say with its very existence, "get off my lawn"
14:15:32 <kfr> What is Kitten?
14:15:40 <kfr> Oh I have never heard of it before
14:15:44 <ais523> elliott's vaporware Linux distro
14:15:44 <kfr> I shall google it
14:15:49 <kfr> Vaporware? :D
14:15:51 <elliott> ais523: not vapourware, just too-busy-for-it-ware
14:15:52 <ais523> googling it probably wouldn't work very well
14:16:07 <kfr> http://kittenlinux.com/index.shtml
14:16:22 <elliott> ais523: I could assemble a system that I'd call "Kitten" right now, but I'd prefer to get a package manager going first
14:16:37 <ais523> elliott: according to kfr's link, you probably have a naming clash
14:16:42 <ais523> because I'm pretty sure you don't own kittenlinux.com
14:16:54 <elliott> what, they stole my fucking logo
14:17:08 <elliott> well...who cares about some Fedora user :D
14:17:23 <elliott> ais523: I'm sure I can usurp it, since when is first-come first-serve a reasonable policy?
14:17:28 <elliott> KITTEN LINUX EHIRD KITTEN LINUX EHIRD KITTEN LINUX EHIRD KITTEN LINUX EHIRD KITTEN LINUX EHIRD KITTEN LINUX EHIRD KITTEN LINUX EHIRD KITTEN LINUX EHIRD KITTEN LINUX EHIRD KITTEN LINUX EHIRD
14:17:53 <elliott> ais523: also, it's just as vapourware as mine, except it has a vaguely self-congratulatory website with way too many italics
14:18:08 <elliott> at least, all it has is the top google spot; the rest of the results are false positives
14:18:16 <elliott> well, apart from: 8 Dec 2008 ... Kitten is based on Linux in part, but makes different design choices that are targeted at scalability (low noise, deterministic behavior) ...
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14:18:25 <elliott> but that's hardly relevant: https://software.sandia.gov/trac/kitten
14:18:36 <elliott> ais523: btw, i never consciously named it Kitten
14:18:49 <elliott> I had some name ideas, but called it Kitten as a joke until I decided on one, and then I forgot them
14:18:49 <ais523> the name just happened?
14:18:55 <elliott> so it just kept being called Kitten
14:19:09 <elliott> ais523: it was originally a joke a la "and a pony!"
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14:24:10 <cheater-> ais523: you need to make a patch that does undo!
14:24:36 <kfr> Today I met somebody in ##asm who had written an assembler in Prolog, I was very impressed by that
14:24:49 <ais523> cheater-: err, wrong channel?
14:24:51 <kfr> I still haven't really tried Prolog but I'm told it's very interesting
14:24:57 <kfr> Food for thought
14:25:01 <cheater-> ais523: i don't want to talk there :)
14:25:03 <ais523> (we're both in both #esoteric and #nethack, and your comment would make sense in #nethack but not #esoteric)
14:25:29 <ais523> oh, you don't want to admit you're a savescummer?
14:25:50 <elliott> everything can be expressed with a fake emoticon name; that's my theory of life
14:25:52 <ais523> elliott: meh, it can be amusing sometimes
14:26:03 <elliott> ais523: well, ok, but very annoying for everyone else
14:26:11 <ais523> especially in #esoteric, isn't our typical response to trolls to countertroll them until they give up?
14:26:24 <cheater-> ais523: why are you refering to me as a troll?
14:26:29 <ais523> also, I can't figure out if it's cheater- trolling, or me
14:26:33 <ais523> cheater-: I'm not, I'm responding to elliott
14:26:49 <cheater-> ais523: elliott is an idiot. never mind him.
14:26:56 <elliott> well, cheater- is either very idiotic or a troll, but it's irrelevant because what he does is the same
14:27:14 <cheater-> iddiott: sorry, i reserved the idiot insult first!
14:28:59 <cheater-> ais523: returning to what we were talking about before we were so rudely interrupted, an undo feature would be fun to learn the different outcomes from a single situation
14:29:08 <cheater-> and for newbies definitely a fun way to play the game
14:29:26 <ais523> arguably, wizmode is more useful in the first case
14:29:49 <ais523> and NetHack tends to be kind-of unsatisfactory with savescumming, especially to a new player
14:30:00 <ais523> it's not as bad when you're experienced and know the sort of things it would be interesting to test
14:30:04 <cheater-> yes, but wizard mode gives you abilities beyond what you normally would be able to do
14:30:10 <cheater-> therefore it's not as useful for learning
14:30:19 <ais523> it lets you set the situations you want to test up
14:30:24 <ais523> rather than have to have them happen naturally
14:30:24 <cheater-> because when learning you want to be confronted with situations that normally come up
14:30:33 <cheater-> i want them to happen naturally
14:30:50 <ais523> you want to use wizmode precisely to test things that only come up once in a blue moon
14:30:50 <elliott> that's a great way to become someone who gives up every time they die, i guess
14:31:04 <ais523> because the stuff that comes up all the time comes up all the time, so you learn it quickly enough
14:31:07 <cheater-> ais523: yes. i want to use undo to test things that come up naturally.
14:31:14 <cheater-> ais523: not quickly enough for me
14:31:36 <ais523> hmm, I think NetHack is possibly the wrong game for you
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14:32:08 <elliott> hey guys, i want to learn dwarf fortress
14:32:11 <cheater-> ais523: i think you're trying to patronize me by following the general beaten path way of playing nethack as opposed to being creative and finding fun new ways to enjoy it.
14:32:12 <elliott> i want to be able to go back in time
14:32:15 <elliott> so that whenever i fuck up
14:32:20 <elliott> i don't have to lose my precious fortress
14:32:29 <elliott> can |_| plz hax0r it 4 me ais523?
14:33:01 <ais523> elliott: as Dwarf Fortress is a sandbox game in a way, I can see more reason to savescum it than I can to savescum NetHack
14:33:14 <ais523> NetHack's a sandbox game in wizmode too, but it doesn't make for a very /good/ sandbox game
14:33:18 <elliott> ais523: http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/DF2010:Fun
14:33:21 <elliott> (redirect to http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/DF2010:Losing)
14:33:27 <elliott> Either way, it keeps you busy.
14:33:27 <elliott> There is no internal end point, single goal, final Easter egg or "You Win!" announcement in Dwarf Fortress. Therefore, eventually, almost every fortress will fall. The only ones that don't tend to be very conservative and very boring—and what fun is that? Therefore, DF = losing /\ DF = fun => losing = fun, and that's okay! It's a game philosophy, so embrace it, own it, and have fun with it!
14:33:29 <elliott> Most new players will lose their first few forts sooner rather than later; when you lose a fortress, don't feel like you don't understand the game. Dwarf Fortress has a steep learning curve, and part of the process (and fun!) is discovering things for yourself. However, this Wiki serves as an excellent place to speed up the learning process.
14:33:32 <cheater-> ais523: is it so unimaginable to play nethack in a way that it's not played normally?
14:33:33 <elliott> If you lose, you can always reclaim fortress or go visit it in adventurer mode.
14:33:35 <elliott> If you're looking for more ways to test yourself, try either the mega construction or the Challenges articles.]]
14:33:38 <elliott> ais523: if Dwarf Fortress didn't have losing, it wouldn't be a game
14:33:54 <elliott> (Minecraft is a game on a technicality -- you can die by being killed, which counts as losing)
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14:34:00 <kfr> You can't lose in WoW
14:34:04 <ais523> cheater-: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-1hk-whXJI
14:34:26 <ais523> (sorry, that's close to the perfect comeback but I had to look up the link)
14:34:49 <elliott> ais523: oh, you guys actually released the TAS?
14:34:53 <elliott> or is the project still ongoing?
14:35:05 <elliott> what the fuck is happening :D
14:35:07 <elliott> I like how you're called F
14:35:32 <elliott> ais523: please get hallu at some point
14:35:44 <ais523> hallu would cause a desync the way we're doing things
14:35:50 <ais523> cheater-: <cheater-> ais523: is it so unimaginable to play nethack in a way that it's not played normally?
14:36:10 <ais523> put it this way, if you're going to savescum, you want to do it /properly/
14:36:15 <elliott> cheater-: you could always code your own cheating code rather than telling ais523 to do something he obviously isn't going to do
14:36:28 <elliott> that would also have the side-effect of not polluting #esoteric with lines both idiotic and offtopic
14:36:29 <cheater-> iddiott: you could always just /ignore me
14:37:14 <ais523> <elliott> what the fuck is happening :D <-- http://gitorious.org/nethack-tas-tools/mainline/blobs/raw/master/turnbyturn.txt
14:37:25 <ais523> that's over ten thousand words now, and I felt the need to write it just to explain what was happening
14:37:27 <elliott> ais523: you think that will answer my question?
14:37:37 <elliott> ais523: I'm not a very good NetHack player :)
14:37:46 <ais523> elliott: it's designed to be understood by people who don't know about NetHack much
14:37:54 <ais523> it's that long partly because it explains all the relevant mechanics
14:37:55 <elliott> ais523: will you do another TAS on the most favourable day?
14:38:17 <ais523> admittedly, most of the relevant mechanics are ones that never come up in "real" games, so I need to explain them to veterans too
14:38:24 <ais523> and no, because it would look basically the same
14:39:12 <elliott> it turns out that there have been
14:39:12 <elliott> none at all since the release of NetHack 3.4.3,
14:39:17 <elliott> ais523: can you not play a release on a day before it was released?
14:39:28 <ais523> elliott: obviously not, that would be unrealistic!
14:39:43 <ais523> (I tend to take the "theoretically possible" bit rather pedantically)
14:39:52 <elliott> oh, so the game doesn't actually stop you :)
14:39:57 <elliott> ais523: it's theoretically possible to set your clock back!
14:40:19 <ais523> but that would be illegally modified hardware
14:40:28 <ais523> (well, probably not, I'm just being excessively pedantic)
14:40:36 <ais523> (and there's no reason /not/ to pick a date after the release of 3.4.3)
14:40:51 <cheater-> it would be theoretically possible to be someone who has left earth at light speed and used the twin effect to result in them being in the most favourable day
14:41:20 <ais523> I did something similar in the Pokémon World Championships, using a more difficult method to control the RNG to produce perfect Pokémon just in order to leave them with possible timestamps
14:41:28 <ais523> in fact, I left the timestamp as close to the actual time as I could
14:41:39 <ais523> but I made sure it was neither before I bought the game, nor in the future
14:42:51 <elliott> "Amusingly, this dependence on the moon phase can
14:42:51 <elliott> cause desyncs on occasion; this is likely the only TAS that will have
14:42:51 <elliott> been desynced by running a script on a full moon by mistake."
14:42:55 <elliott> i want to make a roguelike now
14:43:02 <elliott> and devote 20 pages to the RNG
14:43:13 <ais523> this might theoretically have practical advantages, in that I was vaguely expecting them to ban Pokémon caught with impossible dates in order to exclude the majority of RNG controllers in a way that wasn't clearly impossible to enforce
14:43:25 <elliott> which will take into account the phase of the moon, the stock market (using the Internet) and its difference from predictions of the stock market,
14:43:38 <elliott> the day on which Easter falls in that year, ...
14:43:51 <elliott> <ais523> this might theoretically have practical advantages, in that I was vaguely expecting them to ban Pokémon caught with impossible dates in order to exclude the majority of RNG controllers in a way that wasn't clearly impossible to enforce
14:43:52 <ais523> I translated an Easter-finding algorithm from Algol-68 into C once
14:43:56 <ais523> so that I could actually run it
14:43:59 <elliott> hmm, you cheated in a way people didn't want you to? :)
14:44:05 <ais523> elliott: it was completely legal
14:44:14 <elliott> well, yes, just against the spirit
14:44:23 <ais523> someone actually asked the people in charge of the tournament, and said that they didn't like it but couldn't think up a way to ban it, so it was legal
14:44:54 * elliott decides ais523 is Lawful Neutral
14:45:15 <elliott> (OK, Lawful isn't referring to following the letter strictly)
14:45:37 <ais523> elliott: normally I wouldn't act like that, but it was a world championship qualifier
14:45:40 <ais523> so I'm going to do the best I can within the rules
14:46:05 <elliott> "This means that there's a hard
14:46:05 <elliott> limit of 46 minutes 58 seconds for the run, because at 1am, the game
14:46:05 <elliott> would become slightly less difficult as undead damage reverted to
14:46:05 <elliott> normal, so we would no longer be playing at highest difficulty."
14:46:18 <tswett> I agree with that thing you said earlier.
14:46:55 -!- Vonlebio_ has joined.
14:47:38 <tswett> Well, then, I don't agree with it either.
14:47:47 <elliott> wow, that's a good starting inventory, ais523
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15:04:53 <Vonlebio_> Why are you going on about gnomes?
15:05:05 <elliott> Why... do you have gnome... on ping.
15:06:05 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
15:07:19 <Vonlebio_> elliott: no mention that lets that make sense in today's logs.
15:22:19 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
15:23:11 <Ilari> ~47 minute time limit vs. one WIP (apparently almost the latest I found) being 25 seconds long... I'll check what the final turn number is...
15:25:49 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
15:27:57 <elliott> Ilari: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-1hk-whXJI is rather longer than 20 seconds
15:30:47 <Ilari> elliott: I found a input movie file dated 2011-01-09. According to emulator's computation of length, it is 24997ms long (rounded down)...
15:31:58 <Ilari> I don't know how up to date it is (I'm checking that now).
15:34:55 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
15:35:30 -!- copumpkin has joined.
15:38:11 <kfr> [ Quit ] elliott (~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott): Ping timeout: 240 seconds
15:38:11 <kfr> [ Join ] copumpkin (~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod)
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15:48:33 <quintopia> how does one get an unaffiliated hostname?
15:48:43 <ais523> quintopia: by asking in #freenode
15:49:05 <ais523> just go there, identify to nickserv if you haven't already, and ask for an unaffilated cloak
15:49:11 <ais523> and wait for one of the Freenode staff to notice
15:49:47 <quintopia> so why do they do that instead of traditional hash cloaking?
15:51:12 <ais523> perhaps in case someone bruteforces the hash
15:51:23 <ais523> no matter how secure the hash, that would be pretty easy due to the limited space in IPv4
15:51:36 -!- elliott has joined.
15:51:46 <ais523> not to mention, dynamic IPs would hash to completely different strings, thus defeating the point
15:52:33 -!- Sgeo has joined.
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15:53:07 <elliott> ais523: hmm, autopickup doesn't waste a turn?
15:53:10 <elliott> that seems like a bug to me
15:53:29 <ais523> it makes the game go better
15:53:30 <quintopia> ais523: wouldn't that actually make you more secure?
15:53:38 <ais523> quintopia: well, there's a balance
15:53:44 <ais523> why does it show that part of the name anyway?
15:53:48 <ais523> it's so you can ban trolls
15:53:51 <elliott> ais523: well, then pickups should take 0 turns
15:53:58 <ais523> elliott: I've been wondering about it
15:54:17 <ais523> here's another fun one: while blind, : takes 1 turn, m, takes 0 turns if you cancel it and gives basically the same information
15:54:18 <quintopia> ais523: trolls aren't asking for unaffiliated cloaks. and they already benefit from dynamic IP allocation :P
15:54:28 <nddrylliog> elliott, I've done 1 year worth of research in two days
15:54:32 <ais523> quintopia: well, dynamic IPs tend to stay within the same block
15:54:40 <ais523> nddrylliog: that's entirely possible
15:54:50 <ais523> were they the first 2 days of the year? or the last 2?
15:55:19 <nddrylliog> nope, I just have extra wikipedia+paper-reading skillz
15:55:26 <Ilari> 0.05 from APNIC today.
15:55:56 <nddrylliog> I have the feeling that the Curry-Howard correspondence has been *way* under-exploited
15:56:36 <elliott> nddrylliog: it really hasn't :)
15:56:41 <elliott> Coq and Agda use it to fullest effect
15:56:56 <elliott> nddrylliog: you'd like j-invariant. if e was still here.
15:57:01 <ais523> Ilari: is that, that APNIC allocated 5% of a /8 today?
15:57:05 <nddrylliog> yeah.. two, maybe three languages. that's not what I call properly exploited
15:57:31 <elliott> copumpkin: hm. last time he got banned from here, he left the internet entirely for months.
15:57:32 <nddrylliog> seriously, there are only a handful of teams that work on it. that's insane
15:57:37 <copumpkin> nddrylliog: I've exploited it in haskell too
15:57:47 <ais523> elliott: why did he get banned?
15:57:48 <copumpkin> I thought he just left cause I'm a twat
15:57:52 <elliott> nddrylliog: but the teams are really big
15:58:06 <elliott> ais523: j-invariant = soupdragon = fax = MissPiggy = quantumEd = infinite number of nicknames
15:58:12 <elliott> copumpkin: e got banned /months/ ago in 2010
15:58:17 <elliott> copumpkin: and then came back recently
15:58:30 <ais523> elliott: was the huge number of nicks against some rule? if not, you didn't answer my question
15:58:32 <copumpkin> j-invariant was the first one I've come across that actually used a new nickserv
15:58:39 <elliott> ais523: for spamming "FUCK YOU" in-channel
15:58:41 <Ilari> 0.05x/8 that is... So 5%...
15:58:49 <nddrylliog> copumpkin, what did you do in haskell regarding curry-howard ?
15:58:55 <ais523> Ilari: it's not going to last more than a couple of months at that rate
15:59:00 <elliott> ais523: after Vonlebio_ (Phantom_Hoover) said "You fail at Life", where life there means the /Game/ of Life
15:59:20 <elliott> it was more a straw-camel-back type situation though, e'd been going a bit crazy before that
15:59:31 <Ilari> 3.16x/8 left before phase 3...
15:59:33 <copumpkin> nddrylliog: I did some trivial "proofs" (you have to trust that I didn't put any bottoms in) of properties of the naturals
16:00:08 <nddrylliog> copumpkin, I see. Well proofs are fancy and all but I'm more interested in carrying computations from proofs than the other way around
16:00:11 <elliott> haskell as a theorem prover
16:00:20 <elliott> nddrylliog: that doesn't really happen
16:00:26 <elliott> proofs are usually erased at compilation time
16:00:32 <elliott> I don't think you could get much useful computation out of them
16:00:40 <elliott> or if you can, it's likely that they're actually more functions than proofs
16:00:44 <elliott> just, they happen to prove something too
16:01:17 <Vonlebio_> nddrylliog: does that even make sense?
16:01:28 <nddrylliog> elliott, well my thinking is that if you 1) express properties 2) hint on how to develop algorithms the compiler should be able to do wonders. But I still have to prove that (with, like, a proof-of-concept, not a proof)
16:01:42 <nddrylliog> Vonlebio_, I'm not sure, apparently I'll find out in 9 years
16:01:45 <Vonlebio_> Proofs in a Curry-Howard setup tend to just be some function whose final result is a proposition.
16:01:51 <elliott> nddrylliog: well yes I kind of agree
16:02:15 <copumpkin> the more invariants you can specify in your inductive types (à la GADT) the easier it is to prove properties about your programs, without writing explicit proofs for most of it, because your algorithms are carrying proofs with them
16:02:17 <elliott> nddrylliog: the way you talk reminds me more of the overly-optimistic side of visionary :P
16:02:23 <copumpkin> a bit like conor's sort algorithm in epigram
16:02:34 <copumpkin> that provably sorts the list, but has no real proof in it
16:02:51 <nddrylliog> well the really optimistic way would be to forget about the "hint" part
16:03:16 <nddrylliog> the whole challenge is how to express hints that aren't too overly-verbose (otherwise you could just as well go imperative and be done with it) nor too hard on the compiler / too implicit
16:03:30 <nddrylliog> and I'm only using "compiler" because I have no better term right now and that "proof assistant" gives me chills
16:04:12 <Vonlebio_> nddrylliog: why are you interested in this stuff?
16:05:04 <nddrylliog> Vonlebio_, well, I've already exhausted the whole Java/C++/C#/whatever object-oriented fraud there is universe by re-implementing mine and being unhappy with it as well. So I'm trying something new
16:05:25 <elliott> Finally, some option values were chosen
16:05:25 <elliott> in order to make the game look visually better and to remove
16:05:29 <elliott> ais523: visuals? setting that option takes time!!!
16:06:00 <elliott> nddrylliog: you should get interested in ursala! instant guaranteed obscurity
16:06:06 <Vonlebio_> nddrylliog: my brain cannot cope with that statement.
16:06:26 <nddrylliog> Vonlebio_, would you like me to rewrite it to normal form?
16:06:29 <elliott> https://github.com/nddrylliog/fe2/blob/master/array-second.fe2 I demand royalties, nddrylliog.
16:06:33 <elliott> I demand endless fucking royalties.
16:06:44 <elliott> nddrylliog: there's a whole book-manual
16:06:49 <elliott> nddrylliog: http://www.basis.netii.net/ursala/manual.pdf
16:07:00 <elliott> ais523 is our resident Ursala know-it-all* fan*
16:07:19 <nddrylliog> elliott, 2.6Mb? are you trying to make my mobile subscription explode?
16:07:38 <elliott> nddrylliog: you're in Switzerland, surely you are rich!
16:07:58 <elliott> <nddrylliog> YOUR ARGUMENT IS INFALLIBLE
16:08:07 <quintopia> they seem to be completely ignoring my request >_>
16:08:21 <elliott> Vonlebio_: http://ooc-lang.org/
16:08:25 <nddrylliog> Vonlebio_, I'd rather not talk about it
16:08:26 <ais523> here, can anyone here think of a remotely sane way of automatically testing Linux kernel-mode keyloggers?
16:08:45 <elliott> ais523: give it to someone evil, wait to see if security advisories trickle in
16:08:59 <elliott> nddrylliog: omg i want to troll them
16:09:07 <elliott> nddrylliog: "so hey, this nddrylliog guy says ooc sucks, is he right?"
16:09:08 <ais523> err, assume I have a great number of them, most of which will probably lock up the kernel
16:09:16 <elliott> ais523: give them to LOTS of evil people
16:09:29 <elliott> <wandernauta> nddrylliog: Fe2 looks very cool, but also very academic (i.e. I don't understand a nugget of it)
16:09:30 <quintopia> elliott: i asked in #freenode for an unaffiliated cloak and the +v's are saying stuff like i never asked...
16:09:43 <elliott> quintopia: you just have to keep asking every three hours
16:09:59 <Ilari> elliott: That movie is the latest. Ends on turn 426. And as said, the length is bit less than 25 seconds.
16:10:02 <quintopia> elliott: how many tries should i expect it to take?
16:10:12 <elliott> quintopia: 2-3 is typical for #freenode
16:10:56 <Ilari> elliott: The one in youtube is slowed down a lot (to avoid dropping frames).
16:11:03 <ais523> quintopia: it depends on if any staffers are paying attention
16:11:10 -!- elliott has set topic: DISCUSSION OF GOATS | HTTP://GOAT.ORG/ | NO NON-GOAT-RELATED TALK | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | NO.
16:11:19 -!- locks has joined.
16:11:30 * locks hides beneath the bleachers
16:11:48 <ais523> err, I don't like that topic
16:11:57 <elliott> ais523: nddrylliog mentioned us in #ooc-lang!
16:12:03 <ais523> secure secure secure shell!
16:12:09 <elliott> it's a REALLY secure shell
16:13:06 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:13:33 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:13:44 <Ilari> That level of security must obviously involve X.509 and PKI up the wazoo... No matter if those working with X.509 wouldn't trust it for access control to beer fridge...
16:14:05 <elliott> apparently they're too boring
16:14:24 -!- elliott has set topic: For the discussion of hiybbprqag and mbzrxpgjys | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
16:14:53 -!- nddrylliog has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat).
16:15:05 <ais523> nddrylliog's nick would not be out of place in the topic
16:15:41 <elliott> locks: http://esolangs.org/ may be enlightening.
16:15:52 <elliott> nddrylliog is in here because ooc is so bad it counts as an esolang HAHA
16:16:54 <locks> don't diss ndd, poor fellow
16:17:37 <elliott> locks: we love him, it's just that he gets unhappy if we mention ooc
16:17:56 <elliott> <nddrylliog> Vonlebio_, well, I've already exhausted the whole Java/C++/C#/whatever object-oriented fraud there is universe by re-implementing mine and being unhappy with it as well. So I'm trying something new <-- maybe I'll put that in the #ooc-lang topic
16:17:59 <ais523> elliott: now I'm trying to figure out just who you're trolling
16:19:46 <Vonlebio_> ISTR having a pleasant conversation with nddrylliog once, but I can't remember what it was for the life of me.
16:20:17 <elliott> Vonlebio_: http://i.imgur.com/KEujW.jpg
16:20:23 <elliott> What you say to becoming invisible and killing everyone?
16:20:23 -!- azaq23 has joined.
16:20:25 <ais523> hmm, offtopic #esoteric has really shifted
16:20:31 <ais523> it seems to be all about trolling nowadays
16:20:57 <locks> "all 3 of them", I laughed
16:21:12 <ais523> elliott: well, more today specifically, than nowadays
16:22:14 <locks> elliott: you are a funny bastard
16:22:33 <elliott> hmm, does that mean i have expectations to keep up?
16:22:51 <elliott> normally people just accept that I'm irritating and I go about my day
16:23:00 -!- elliott has changed nick to noone.
16:23:06 -!- noone has changed nick to elliott.
16:23:33 <elliott> ais523: paste your self-uudecoder again?
16:23:57 <ais523> which version specifically?
16:23:58 <ais523> the C code that generates it?
16:24:02 <Vonlebio_> You mean uudecoding it produces itself?
16:24:04 <elliott> no, the actual machine code
16:24:04 <ais523> the executable that does the encoding?
16:24:14 <elliott> Vonlebio_: no, it's a printable x86 executable
16:24:20 <elliott> I'm not sure why it's self-
16:24:20 <ais523> the executable that prints out the C code that does the encoding?
16:24:26 <ais523> elliott: it doesn't uudecode
16:24:31 <elliott> ais523: I just want the thing that's x86 machine code. :p
16:24:42 <Vonlebio_> We need to find eigenvalues for EVERYTHING.
16:24:44 <ais523> it's basically a program that generates printable executables that print arbitrary binary
16:25:09 <elliott> ais523: an executable that prints the C code, then
16:26:42 <ais523> XP_W^VH%35%DCPYXPH%=5%=CP[]UM#(UX%??t&* * * * ZR 1() !GFF=\ouU0_0<0^3L1L0^292L1^1Q1L2Y1D1\3R3P0A3B2D0<1p3p3o11131p3>2D0<3:0<18253<2:170D021p3D0>0A0D0<183<3:1:1D0432041p24143o031p2D0p331o0A2D0B2A3I1J2I1J2D321124310o13031D0=0p3o0302113A220=2I1J2I1J22112o0D011412112B02112o0D042A0D0432041p2B2B2D0o2B1I1J2n3I1J2p231o0o1p212D0B042=0?0B1B2B042B242A142B1B2B042A1@2B1=342B3@1m0m032p0o1o0p3B0D2<2@090@061@1;0@15050@382@380@0D2A0B0o2132130B2B1@263o251B1A042A1@
16:26:44 <ais523> 3=342B3@3=3I1J2B0B2B02112o0B2B1B2o2=1323331o043B0B0o2132130B2B1@163o251B1B1A1;193;2=311412112B011412112B0A1@3A0o2B1A0o2B1>2@1>2A132p0p22112o032B0B0o2132130B2B1@263o251A0I1J2D2C143C143D2A0C380C3B3C3=0C3A1B2B02112o0B2B1B2o2A3?0A1B0B2B02112o0B2B1B2o2=0C3p0C3B1B2C3<0C3A0C3@0C3B3B2B02112o0B2B1B2o2C1?0B1>2D1B0B0@163o251=1B0o2132130I1J2B2B13213p03112B0B0o2132130B2B1@163o251A0D2p242D2B1B1C2C2B0@263o251=1B0o2132130B2B13213p03112B0B0o2132130B2B1@
16:26:46 <ais523> 263o251A0D2o3B342D2B1B1C2C2@2@2B332p0o1o0p3B0I1J2D2608053735272:0C1@3?1C1;0<380616080:0C1=1?1C1=1<38063517191D3B07160C1=350=3o0C2B2D0B2D0B2D0B2D06282D0@1B0B1D0D1;3;2;2=1505013o171@053@0=0@052@390@1D2I1J2D290@052@2>1@290@152@1D2A0B0o2132130B2B1@263o251B1C2C211412112B0A1@1A0o2B1C2C232p0o1o0p3B0D2<0<0<1?1D2A0B0o2132130B2B1@263o251B1C2C2B0C3m2C3B332p3313123B0I1J2B0o2132130B2B1@263o251A0>0@1A0@0B1A0@
16:26:47 <ais523> 1B1C2C2B0B0B2B02112o0B2B1B2o2=132o0311010B0B0o2132130B2B1@163o251B1C1@2?1?2B1A011412112B0A1@3A0o2B1A0B0B2B02112o0B2B1I1J2B2o2=132o0311010B0B0o2132130B2B1@163o251B1A3?0A3?2?0B1A011412112B0A1@3A0o2B1A032431013p331B0B0o2132130B2B1@163o251B1A032431013p331B0B0o2132130B2B1@263o251I1J2B1B2@0B1B1>2@1>3I1J2m1I1J2@@A5
16:26:56 <ais523> (there is no whitespace past the end of the first line)
16:27:01 <ais523> did all four lines arrive?
16:27:11 <elliott> ais523: yikes, don't you have something shorter?
16:27:16 <elliott> I mean the one that ended with "AIS"
16:27:18 <ais523> let me get a hello world
16:27:25 <ais523> where A5 are my initials
16:27:48 <ais523> XP_W^VH%35%DCPYXPH%=5%=CP[]UM#(UX%??t&* * * * ZR 1() !GFF=\ouU0_0<0^3L1L0^292L1^1I2L0Y1D1\3R3P0:031101013A0D0o313p21030D1J2@@A
16:27:50 <ais523> there, that's a hello world
16:28:04 <ais523> although I think it ends with a UNIX newline
16:28:45 <elliott> ais523: you forgot the last 5
16:28:50 <ais523> err, yes, copy/paste fail
16:28:59 <elliott> ais523: works as a COM, right?
16:29:01 <ais523> not that it actually matters
16:29:18 <elliott> ais523: does the newline matter?
16:29:29 <ais523> the A5 at the end is to cause the loading to fail noisily rather than silently if there's enough space to load the executable, but not enough stack space to run it
16:29:38 <ais523> which only happens if your memory below 640K is almost exhausted
16:29:45 <elliott> ais523: does the newline matter, though?
16:29:48 <ais523> and probably not, but it feels weird printing a UNIX newline on a DOS system
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16:30:50 <Vonlebio_> ais523: did you actually assemble that, or?
16:30:58 <ais523> XP_W^VH%35%DCPYXPH%=5%=CP[]UM#(UX%??t&* * * * ZR 1() !GFF=\ouU0_0<0^3L1L0^292L1^1I3L0Y1D1\3R3P0:031101013A0D0o313p21030D1I1J2@@A5
16:31:04 <ais523> Vonlebio_: no, I wrote the machine code by hand
16:31:21 <ais523> it turns out that there aren't any control flow instructions made entirely out of printable characters
16:31:32 <ais523> so instead, you have to construct them at runtime using instructions that are
16:31:57 <Vonlebio_> ais523: wait, is that second one functioning?
16:32:27 <impomatic> If you're interested in Eigenratios, this blog is pretty interesting http://eigenratios.blogspot.com
16:32:27 <ais523> it doesn't work on wineconsole, though
16:32:50 -!- nddrylliog has joined.
16:32:56 <ais523> it also exploits a few features of DOS which were there for backwards compatibility even in DOS 1
16:33:07 <ais523> and are incredibly obsolete nowadays, but preserved just in case anyone still cares about them
16:33:41 <ais523> in particular, it misinterprets the CP/M compatibility return address as a character in order to initialise registers
16:33:59 <ais523> the very first instruction, the X, is actually a pop instruction
16:34:34 <elliott> impomatic: very unupdated though
16:35:12 <ais523> and then the P is a push that puts the 0 back onto the stack so I can use it for other things
16:35:22 <ais523> hmm, I should disassemble that sometime, although the disassembly goes crazy after a while
16:36:26 <pikhq> nddrylliog: There's quite a few oddities in DOS because of its odd history...
16:36:49 <nddrylliog> pikhq: btw, which DOS are we talking about? There was a few different flavours, IIRC
16:37:23 <ais523> I used the MS-DOS 3 manual to write suuda, although I wouldn't be be surprised if it worked on other DOS flavours too
16:37:24 <pikhq> MS-DOS and related OSes.\
16:37:43 <ais523> (yes, MS-DOS 3 was massively obsolete when I wrote it)
16:38:02 <ais523> MS-DOS 1 didn't even have directories
16:38:16 <pikhq> ais523: Yeah, but MS-DOS 3 had pretty much all the features that you'd care about.
16:38:47 <pikhq> ais523: And it ought to be compatible with everything that you'd find called "DOS"...
16:42:38 <pikhq> IIRC, \ and / are both valid path seperators on DOS.
16:42:46 <pikhq> As a *UNIX* "compatibility" feature.
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16:50:33 <impomatic> ais523: I care... Obsolete stuff needs to be preserved :-)
16:50:54 <nddrylliog> there probably is a "your mom" joke hiding in there
16:51:00 <ais523> impomatic: about what?
16:51:06 <ais523> oh, those features in DOS
16:51:10 <ais523> well, I care too, because I used them
16:51:25 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if nowadays, CP/M executables /still/ run correctly in NTVDM?
16:52:14 <elliott> ais523: meanwhile, in #ooc-lang, somebody is arguing that you can store Chaitin's constant in a number variable, "with enough laziness"
16:52:20 -!- Vonlebio_ has quit (Quit: Page closed).
16:52:27 <elliott> nddrylliog why don't you like disown these people and go on a pilgrimage ... a pilgrimage of fire
16:52:33 <augur> elliott: it's even worse than merely stupid to ask a linguist those questions
16:52:54 <ais523> elliott: heh, that's hilarious; it'd work up to a point, and I'm not even sure it's decidable where that point is
16:53:00 <elliott> <Vonlebio_> wandernauta: I suggest you look up "computable number" on WP.
16:53:05 <augur> if we expect humans to have any sort of insight into their language, we expect only native speakers to have such insights
16:53:07 <elliott> goddamn nddrylliog, don't you have ops in this thing so you can ban everyone :(
16:53:15 <impomatic> ais523: about CP/M compatible file i/o.
16:53:25 <nddrylliog> so, let's recap 1) I'm not responsible of whatever is on ooc-lang.org 2) I'm not responsible of whoever is on #ooc-lang 3) I'm not responsible. EOL
16:53:37 <augur> almost by necessity, since the object of study in linguistics is naturally acquired language
16:53:54 <elliott> nddrylliog: then who do i blame :(
16:54:28 <locks> blame yourself, fool
16:54:42 <elliott> hey I _erase_ stupidity from this world. with knives.
16:54:50 <nddrylliog> everytime I come back to IRC, I wonder why I left
16:55:24 <nddrylliog> elliott: are you kidding? you're horrible, horrible people. That's why I feel at home here.
16:55:35 <ais523> `addquote <nddrylliog> elliott: are you kidding? you're horrible, horrible people. That's why I feel at home here.
16:55:42 <ais523> to be fair, some of us are more horrible than others
16:55:47 <HackEgo> 285) <nddrylliog> elliott: are you kidding? you're horrible, horrible people. That's why I feel at home here.
16:55:55 <elliott> we're really nice horrible people
16:56:01 <nddrylliog> I already have several quotes in there
16:56:04 <locks> best way to erase stupidity is to educate
16:56:18 <locks> well, up to a certain point. then it's time for knives
16:56:39 <elliott> educating people is hard. they say stupid things and it hurts.
16:56:48 <elliott> searches with spaces don't work because i don't know why
16:56:56 <elliott> nddrylliog: `pastequotes foo links you to all the results for that
16:57:01 <elliott> i wrote this system, it's totally expert.
16:57:02 <ais523> elliott: probably screwed up your shell escaping
16:57:06 <HackEgo> 208) <fungot> elliott: i like scsh's mechanism best: it's most transparent and doesn't really serve a very useful feature. \ 211) <fungot> elliott: it's hard to debug havoc on your mirror if you accidentally hit r, then a character could be multiple words long, depending on the task. \ 220) <Gregor> elliott: My university has
16:57:16 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/quote
16:57:19 <HackEgo> 276) <nddrylliog> are you always careful to have a small enough margin so that it can't contain the proof? <oklofok> nddrylliog: i usually use latex, and make sure my hd is almost full \ 277) <nddrylliog> I went to chat with him after his talk at the ELC and he was like "hum, right - humans. How do they work again... oh, hi!" \ 278)
16:57:31 <elliott> ais523: note that in hackego, $1 contains the whole argument line
16:57:43 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.21628
16:58:02 <elliott> he doesn't know what rationals are :(
16:58:39 <nddrylliog> unfortunately 277 lacks context :/ I was talking about Walter Bright
16:58:46 <elliott> nddrylliog: we just remember context
16:58:51 <elliott> it's easier than stuffing it all into one irc line :P
16:58:59 <elliott> I probably should have put [on Walter Bright] before, though
16:59:11 <elliott> nddrylliog: well technically yes.
16:59:18 <HackEgo> <nddrylliog> I went to chat with him after his talk at the ELC and he was like "hum, right - humans. How do they work again... oh, hi!"
16:59:26 <locks> who's walter bright and why is he so bright
16:59:45 <elliott> nddrylliog: [about Walter Bright] or [on Walter Bright]
16:59:56 <nddrylliog> elliott: I prefer "on", it can be mis-interpreted
17:00:00 <elliott> `run sed -i 's/\(.*humans\..*\)/[on Walter Bright] \1/' quotes
17:00:04 <HackEgo> 277) [on Walter Bright] <nddrylliog> I went to chat with him after his talk at the ELC and he was like "hum, right - humans. How do they work again... oh, hi!"
17:00:16 <elliott> `addquote <locks> who's walter bright and why is he so bright <nddrylliog> locks: he's to D what I'm to ooc <nddrylliog> locks: guilty
17:00:17 <HackEgo> 286) <locks> who's walter bright and why is he so bright <nddrylliog> locks: he's to D what I'm to ooc <nddrylliog> locks: guilty
17:00:20 <nddrylliog> elliott: also, subtitle "ELC" as "Emerging Languages Conference"
17:00:37 <elliott> maybe we need a substring-based annotation system
17:00:58 <locks> I should stopwait wtf @ myndzi
17:01:09 <elliott> ais523: because it /was/ hip, but then it wasn't
17:01:09 <locks> RUBY IS AWESOME SUKER
17:01:13 <elliott> now it's hip again, because it's retro
17:01:17 <elliott> nddrylliog: it's for mirc users
17:01:32 <elliott> nddrylliog: they fail at spaces
17:01:36 <ais523> I thiought /o/ triggered it too
17:01:50 <elliott> i use a proportional font :D
17:01:50 <locks> I'M GONAN /o/ OUT OF HERE
17:02:05 <ais523> IRC has no inherent reason to line up in columns
17:05:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
17:08:12 <nddrylliog> locks: we could talk about mbzrxpgjys if you prefer
17:08:28 <locks> both, at the same time
17:11:20 <quintopia> you could have done something more interesting with the prqag. poor qag :(
17:12:03 * pikhq likes having a "fuck it's cold" day.
17:12:13 <pikhq> Should have had one yesterday, but oh well..
17:14:14 <impomatic> I don't get it. Are you speaking some kind of esoteric human language?
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17:16:09 <ais523> nddrylliog: ouch, you screwed up that quote badly
17:16:12 -!- quintopia has quit (Changing host).
17:16:12 -!- quintopia has joined.
17:16:18 <nddrylliog> ais523: bahh. my cloudy brain doesn't care
17:16:27 -!- addyf3 has left (?).
17:16:28 <elliott> * quintopia has quit (Changing host)
17:16:28 <elliott> * quintopia (~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia) has joined #esoteric
17:16:38 <pikhq> My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.
17:16:41 <elliott> nddrylliog: you scared addyf3 away quickly!
17:17:16 <pikhq> nddrylliog: Well, yes. Given that he is exacting revenge *decades* later...
17:17:47 <nddrylliog> pikhq: well, regardless, I didn't say *you've _just_ killed my father*.
17:18:04 <pikhq> nddrylliog: "You've killed my father" kinda suggests that it just happened.
17:18:13 <elliott> oh Inigo Montoya isn't the protagonist? maybe i should actually watch the films :D
17:18:23 <pikhq> elliott: s/films/film/
17:18:27 <pikhq> elliott: Or read the book.
17:18:32 <elliott> i thought Inigo Montoya was from Kill Bill ... I swear to god
17:18:41 <pikhq> elliott: The Princess Bride.
17:18:47 <quintopia> Princess Bride FAIL you are terrible person
17:18:48 <elliott> ok i'm gonna crawl up into a hole now and wonder what happened to my life
17:18:49 <pikhq> elliott: It is one of the best movies ever.
17:18:52 <pikhq> elliott: Watch it now.
17:18:58 -!- elliott has left (?).
17:19:29 <impomatic> I want a "My name is Inigo Montoya" t-shirt
17:19:45 <pikhq> I want to remember where I put my copy of that book.
17:19:47 <ais523> The Princess Bride is famous for all sorts of things
17:19:48 <quintopia> i went into #irssi and was like "are there any experts here?" and they're all "ask your real question" and i'm like "here's my real question:" and they're all ""
17:20:04 <quintopia> i'm gonna take that as a no, no experts today
17:20:30 <locks> is everyone in here a bitch?
17:20:44 <pikhq> locks: I doubt there's any female dogs on IRC.
17:21:01 <locks> there are on twitter
17:21:04 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: nothing if you're not an idiot. i do it all the time.
17:21:11 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> i thought Inigo Montoya was from Kill Bill ... I swear to god ← CURL UP IN A HOLE AND DIE
17:21:29 <impomatic> pikhq: is your copy the one with red/black text?
17:21:31 -!- elliott has joined.
17:21:34 <elliott> have you all forgotten yet
17:21:40 <pikhq> impomatic: I don't think so.
17:21:45 <quintopia> oh that kid who didn't know where inigo montoya was from is back
17:21:48 -!- elliott has left (?).
17:22:10 -!- locks has left (?).
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17:28:54 <Ilari> Hmm... A graph predicting APNIC exhaustion end-May... Then RIPE in end-August and ARIN in end-September...
17:31:57 <ais523> ARIN's more likely than the others to get /8s handed back to it, I think
17:32:07 <ais523> when's the press conference happening?
17:33:26 <ais523> where ? is a metasyntactic variable, rather than a punctuation mark?
17:34:12 <Ilari> AFAIK, 1430Z or something like that...
17:35:02 <ais523> hmm, at least there's /no way/ IPv4 will last out until 20123
17:35:21 <ais523> and thus, won't lead to the end of the world
17:35:57 <Ilari> This graph would show depletion of 3 of 5 RIRs before this year is over...
17:36:11 <pikhq> Ilari: That's crazy.
17:37:21 <ais523> AfriNIC will likely start depleting a lot faster when people who need IPv4s get a colo in Africa just so they can get at them
17:39:36 <Ilari> Also, LACNIC... LACNIC also includes the caribean (which should have better connectivity than Africa...)
17:40:49 -!- elliott has joined.
17:40:57 <elliott> ais523: please tell me the TAS run will end up killing Ischak
17:41:04 <elliott> hmm, is that how you spell it?
17:41:15 <ais523> "Izchak", and we never meet him
17:41:22 <elliott> ais523: how far along are you?
17:41:23 <ais523> he's in an optional part of the game, and we have no reason to go there
17:41:26 <Ilari> Hmm... Do requests for <script> elements include referrers?
17:41:59 <elliott> ais523: how many times shorter is the current video to what you predict the final will be
17:42:21 <ais523> as I said, it's pretty hard to tell
17:42:22 <elliott> the @ command that changes autopickup settings is used to
17:42:22 <elliott> instruct our character in advance of stepping onto a square whether he
17:42:22 <elliott> should pick up the item on that square or not
17:42:22 <nddrylliog> tonight sounds like a good night for drunk coding
17:42:26 <elliott> hmm, can't you just not step on the bad rings?
17:42:32 <ais523> elliott: they're in the way
17:42:41 <ais523> and @ doesn't cost a turn anyway
17:42:43 <elliott> ais523: so does @ just toggle autopickup?
17:42:49 <Ilari> If they do... Well, that would be handy method of spying users...
17:43:11 <ais523> Ilari: I think that's how sites tell who's hotlinking their data
17:43:23 <ais523> although remember that referrers can be spoofed, quite easily in fact
17:43:41 <elliott> ais523: haha, do you steal from the shk in turn 68 by teleporting far, far away?
17:44:16 <ais523> yep, further than we could go without some massively lucky drops
17:44:28 <Ilari> ais523: Yeah, they can, but how many users you know who have referrers blocked or severly restricted?
17:44:47 <ais523> Ilari: I do, but not by default
17:45:05 <ais523> I can easily send arbitrary referrers to arbitrary sites though if I feel like it for some reason
17:45:11 <ais523> just there's rarely an actual reason
17:45:26 <Ilari> I have them blocked (main browsers) or severly restricted (firefox)
17:47:42 <quintopia> elliott: what sort of hiybbprqag are you guys mbzrxpgjysing about?
17:48:14 <elliott> (Incidentally, we also became female at this point; the gender change
17:48:14 <elliott> is permanent, and an occupational hazard of repeatedly polymorphing.
17:48:14 <elliott> Our gender changes back and forth repeatedly this TAS, and is
17:48:14 <elliott> irrelevant anyway, so we're going to stop mentioning it.)
17:48:38 <Ilari> So not only is external javashit a security risk... It is also a privacy risk.
17:49:01 -!- nddrylliog has quit (Quit: so long).
17:49:07 <elliott> "javashit"; time until "M$": 5 hours
17:50:02 <olsner> <elliott> oerjan: i was inspired by your talking with olsner actually.
17:50:07 <olsner> elliott: when did he talk to me?
17:50:25 <elliott> base-pi base-e bijective base increment decrement cat language
17:50:47 <elliott> walking into walls does is use numbers in the sequence for engraving
17:50:47 <elliott> erosion, which is basically irrelevant.)
17:50:50 <elliott> ais523: you already mentioned that before
17:51:27 <elliott> ais523: also, how come you IRC with a proportional font but composed this file for monospaced viewers?
17:51:49 <ais523> elliott: because it's eventually going to go into a system that's agnostic about line breaks
17:51:56 <ais523> but I'm editing it in a programming editor
17:52:07 <elliott> ais523: I meant the double-spacing after full stops
17:52:11 <olsner> I did start on a binary-as-base-255-to-base-pi-and-back thingy
17:52:14 <elliott> which only makes sense when monospaced
17:52:17 <ais523> oh, that's just what Emacs does by default
17:52:23 <ais523> and gets all confused if you try a single sapce
17:52:43 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> "javashit"; time until "M$": 5 hours ← wha? Who wait that?
17:52:46 <olsner> it was (still is) just missing a language to go between "...-base-pi" and "-and-back"
17:52:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Ilari said "javashit"
17:53:07 <elliott> First off, one of you (the only one who actually read this far and is
17:53:08 <elliott> still paying attention) is probably asking "Hey, what happened to turn
17:53:11 <elliott> ais523: i'm too dim to notice that!
17:53:56 <elliott> (In particular, we're manipulating a nearby shark to go in the
17:53:57 <elliott> wrong direction; we'd be bitten to death by the shark if we didn't
17:53:57 <elliott> wait now, but as it is, with its AI manipulated to go the wrong way we
17:54:40 <olsner> elliott: but I don't understand what it was you were inspired to do, was it interesting?
17:54:50 <elliott> olsner: not that interesting
17:55:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: by doing things that advance the RNG
17:55:09 <elliott> preferably without wasting turns
17:55:41 <elliott> it's an explanation of a speedrun
17:55:51 <elliott> I would link the youtube video but Ilari seems to have a more recent and shorter video
17:56:50 <elliott> being a xorn). (This may seem a little implausible, but
17:56:50 <elliott> water in NetHack tends to be incredibly dangerous, with hard-hitting
17:56:50 <elliott> sharks, eels that can instakill the character, and electric eels that
17:56:50 <elliott> can destroy rings and wands. With that amount of dangerous wildlife
17:56:50 <elliott> around, a little turbulence doesn't really surprise me.
17:57:03 <elliott> FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT
17:57:13 <olsner> I still don't understand the properties of non-integral number bases properly, and that understanding seems to be required to make progress
17:57:28 <elliott> The Yendorian Army seems to
17:57:28 <elliott> be equal-opportunities, with a female soldier swinging her sword at us
17:57:28 <elliott> and missing (both the soldiers guarding this tower happen to be girls,
17:57:28 <elliott> for some reason); unfortunately, she doesn't have the sense to run.
17:57:31 <elliott> ais523: *equal-opportunity
17:57:36 <olsner> (in particular to make sure that it's hard enough to use and that there aren't any useful shortcuts)
17:57:38 <ais523> elliott: I'm not so sure on that correction
17:57:44 <elliott> (also, that parenthical remark confuses me, compare "(both the soldiers guarding this tower happen to be boys, for some reason)")
17:57:52 <elliott> ais523: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_opportunity
18:00:33 <elliott> The combat against the other soldier. This one went rather better;
18:00:33 <elliott> not because of the level-up, simply due to luck. As we wanted, we
18:00:33 <elliott> ended up low on health, but not completely out of it; and got another
18:00:33 <elliott> level-up as a result. Ironically, we'd be better off at a lower level
18:00:33 <elliott> here, but not by much, and it ends up not really mattering.
18:00:35 <elliott> ais523: is that actually ironic?
18:01:00 <ais523> elliott: I think it is
18:01:10 <ais523> normally you get level ups and don't want them
18:01:21 <elliott> for this, because we don't care about the chest the wand is in, just
18:01:25 <ais523> normally you want levels but can't get them
18:01:28 <elliott> ais523: do you have the newer video Ilari mentioned?
18:01:31 <ais523> in this case, we get levels but don't want them
18:01:45 <ais523> hmm, it's up somewhere, but I can't remember where offhand
18:02:05 <ais523> it's Ilari who encodes these videos, btw
18:02:30 <elliott> ais523: no, that was the older one
18:03:08 <Ilari> The latest I have is 25 seconds...
18:03:23 <elliott> "We end up embedded in a wall as we unpolymorph, but
18:04:50 <elliott> "And our wish? "4 dark". Although not nearly as broken as
18:04:50 <elliott> Family Feud's, NetHack's wish parser allows for some pretty weird
18:04:53 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:05:06 -!- impomatic has left (?).
18:05:14 <ais523> elliott: the Family Feud reference is someone who took a boring quiz game and made it hilarious by breaking the parser
18:05:40 <ais523> because, say if the answer was "telescope", the parser accepted t.*e.*l.*e.*s.*c.*o.*p.*e
18:05:49 <elliott> ais523: :D ... is this IRL?
18:05:51 -!- cheater- has joined.
18:05:52 <Ilari> Phantom_Hoover: http://tasvideos.org/1248M.html ?
18:05:59 <ais523> elliott: it was a computer game version of a TV quiz show
18:06:07 <elliott> "tased losers cya dopes" :D
18:06:13 <ais523> you could do it outside a TAS too, really
18:06:22 <ais523> except that without RNG abuse, you'd have to be really good at thinking up witty answers on the fly
18:06:30 <ais523> and Ilari beat me to it
18:06:45 <elliott> ugh, that youtube thing doesn't link to an actual link
18:06:55 <elliott> and i want to load the actual youtube page
18:06:59 <ais523> there's an actual link on the same page
18:07:21 <Ilari> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkuP7IvxDGo ?
18:07:23 <elliott> grr, it won't load with my youtube player
18:08:06 * elliott tries the archive.org link
18:09:10 <elliott> ais523: hmm, almost 7 minutes speedrun? that's quite long
18:09:19 <elliott> although i guess absolute speed wasn't the goal :)
18:09:29 <ais523> it's not a speedrun, but a superplay
18:09:38 <ais523> the final S varies according to what precisely you're doing
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18:13:06 <elliott> ais523: can you cause any of nethack's stats to underflow?
18:14:20 <ais523> in fact, we're going to do that to carry capacity in a bit
18:14:41 <elliott> (in Minecraft multiplayer, if you send a jump packet to really high in the air, you fall down, take no damage, and become effectively immortal)
18:14:46 -!- augur has joined.
18:14:55 <elliott> effectively immortal = you can have an hour long lava bath
18:15:04 <ais523> but a day would be pushing it?
18:15:35 <ais523> you can also overflow max HP to end up with negative max HP, which is actually useful as it causes enemies to not attack you
18:15:41 <ais523> but having a high positive max HP tends to work better
18:15:43 <elliott> ais523: I don't know if Java's ints can store a big enough value for that, but I do know that fizzie became immortal accidentally, did many jumps from the proper top of the map that should have killed him, and then spent about 20 minutes in lava, and /still/ had ridiculously high HP
18:15:55 <elliott> I think if you end up with just negative HP in Minecraft, you die
18:15:56 <ais523> elliott: int in java is always 32-bit
18:16:08 <ais523> even on a 64-bit system
18:16:30 <elliott> ais523: what I meant was, I don't know what health value you'd need for that
18:16:40 <elliott> and I suspect it wouldn't fit in a 32-bit int, lava is pretty painful...
18:17:21 <elliott> I wonder how Dwarf Fortress's fluid cellular automaton works.
18:18:01 <elliott> ais523: you can /polymorph/ to your /own species/?
18:18:17 <ais523> elliott: yes, and you become a different member of your own species
18:18:45 <ais523> it's what makes the arbitrarily high maxhp/maxpw glitch work
18:18:49 <elliott> "Unlike in a regular game, though, in a TAS there's no urgent
18:18:49 <elliott> need to heal up instantly; as we only take hits when we want to, we're
18:18:49 <elliott> in no actual danger of dying."
18:19:51 <ais523> we take hits quite a lot, actually, later on
18:19:57 <ais523> for all sorts of reasons
18:22:00 <Ilari> Graph of IPv4 RIR depletion: http://www.tndh.net/~tony/ietf/IPv4-rir-pools-zoom.jpg
18:22:37 <elliott> ais523: Does "4gain energy potions" work?
18:22:56 <ais523> was I trying to golf that one?
18:22:58 <elliott> ais523: YOUR TAS IS IMPERFECT
18:23:05 <elliott> ais523: maybe not, but you should
18:23:09 <elliott> ais523: you avoided "potions of gain energy", at least
18:23:11 <ais523> they certainly aren't all golfed, I was going more for amusement than anything else
18:23:13 <elliott> entering keys takes time, you know!
18:23:23 <ais523> elliott: we're aiming for best gametime, not best realtime
18:23:28 <ais523> realtime's sacrificed for entertainment all the time
18:23:39 <elliott> but you wasted a turn to avoid a long realtime pause!
18:23:42 <ais523> although we do save it just because we can, e.g. the cursor movement trick
18:23:50 <ais523> and the T:2000 barrier means we can get away with that
18:24:03 <ais523> we're wasting a lot more turns by not maximising our actions per turn, but there's no reason to do that this early
18:24:07 <elliott> ais523: is this TAS going to end with sitting around doing nothing until you each turn 2000? :)
18:24:10 <ais523> and it'd be incredibly boring both to watch and to make
18:24:24 <ais523> probably not, as there's some setup that needs to be done on specific turns
18:24:34 <ais523> e.g. we need to set up the egg glitch some time around turn 1830
18:24:43 <elliott> ais523: well, personally i'd be impressed if the game minimised all turns (including before 2000)
18:24:59 <elliott> i'm still not half-way through this file...
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18:25:49 <pikhq> I AM WEARING A FUCKING COAT INSIDE.
18:25:56 <pikhq> FUCK THIS WEATHER. SO MUCH.
18:26:01 <elliott> pikhq: do you guys in america not have heating, just curious
18:26:06 <elliott> WarlikeGoblin: hi, I'm PeacefulOrc
18:26:28 <pikhq> elliott: Actually, for god-knows-what-reason, the central heating doesn't hit my room.
18:27:21 <pikhq> elliott: Heating is ubiquitous in the US, and AC is nearly ubiquitous everywhere it gets above, say, 80.
18:27:59 <pikhq> And absolutely fucking *mandatory* in giant chunks of the country.
18:28:14 <ais523> in the UK, everywhere has central heating nowadays, but air conditioning is basically only used in cars and server rooms
18:28:21 <ais523> because it rarely gets all that hot
18:28:28 <pikhq> (I have no idea how anyone could have lived in Texas before that. Seriously, that shit's likely to kill you.)
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18:33:24 <Ilari> AC eats good chunk of electricity... When shortages of that start, they are in for some real fun...
18:34:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, I thought Texas was actually relatively low in the crazy league?
18:35:11 <pikhq> Ilari: Actually, Arizona is really screwed.
18:35:43 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It's a fucking desert.
18:36:20 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It relies entirely on AC and piping water.
18:36:29 <pikhq> THERE IS NO WATER THERE.
18:38:11 <pikhq> You'd have to basically start evacuating the state. There is nowhere *near* enough water there to supply its population.
18:38:41 <elliott> why did you guys go to america too
18:38:42 <pikhq> And it regularly gets above 100°F (38°C).
18:38:49 <elliott> we weren't that fussed about it really, you know why we warred with you?
18:38:55 <elliott> to try and tell you what a fucking stupid idea living there is
18:39:17 <pikhq> elliott: Actually, a lot of the climate is nice.
18:39:33 <pikhq> elliott: It's just that, being *continent-sized*, there's a lot of places that nobody should be living.
18:39:45 <pikhq> And because we're fucking nuts, we live there ANYWAYS.
18:39:54 <quintopia> well. it's bigger than australia anyway.
18:40:01 <pikhq> It's about the size of Europe.
18:40:31 <elliott> ais523: how much do you bang your head against a wall in an average RNG-manipulation session?
18:40:34 <quintopia> well, if you count EVERY LAST EASTERN EUROPEAN COUNTRY and the part of russia west of the Urals...maybe
18:40:41 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, I HAVE NO CONCEPT OF A PLACE WHERE THE CLIMATE ISN'T ESSENTIALLY THE SAME ALL YEAR ROUND
18:40:49 <ais523> elliott: depends on what we're manipulating
18:40:59 <pikhq> Oh, yeah, Arizona is also fucked because they are even *more* car-centric than the rest of the US.
18:41:02 <pikhq> And that's impressive.
18:41:06 <elliott> ais523: but, are we talking on the scale of 10, 100, 1000 or 10,000 bashes?
18:41:07 <ais523> it's 100 steps on average to manipulate a polymorph, which is probably the most common thing to manipulate
18:41:23 <pikhq> Because of the absurd temperatures, nobody would even think of walking around outside.
18:41:24 <quintopia> pikhq: more car-centric than ATL? is that possible?
18:41:32 <ais523> relatively likely things, like the Vlad-farming, are under 10 and done by hand
18:41:50 <elliott> we failed-polyself to level 3 again (thanks to manipulation on earlier
18:41:50 <elliott> turns). The vampire also manages to push through the crowd to end
18:41:51 <ais523> some things, like generating levels the way we want them, can go up into the high hundreds pretty easily
18:41:55 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Car ownership is mandatory.
18:41:55 <ais523> although we generally give up
18:41:56 <elliott> sounds like it worked to me
18:42:04 <ais523> elliott: "failed polyself" in that we didn't become a monster
18:42:30 <ais523> normally people don't set off that effect /deliberately/, because it can really screw up your character
18:42:33 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: A lot of people would be incapable of purchasing groceries without a car.
18:42:36 <elliott> ais523: you might want to explain that
18:42:41 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Much less getting money for said groceries.
18:42:50 <ais523> elliott: I think I should, yes
18:43:00 <elliott> WHO DO YOU THINK BUILDS THEM
18:43:13 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Doesn't help if it's a day's walk to the store.
18:43:30 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: British English pavement == US English sidewalk, US English pavement == British English carriageway
18:43:41 <ais523> so they do have pavements, they just drive on them
18:44:05 <ais523> no, the road is the whole thing
18:44:10 <ais523> I'm referring to just the bit that the car uses
18:44:10 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Scottsdale_cityscape4.jpg
18:45:01 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: BUTBUT EVERYONE NEEDS A QUARTER-ACRE!
18:45:24 <elliott> the us drive on pavements?
18:45:41 <elliott> <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Scottsdale_cityscape4.jpg
18:45:46 <pikhq> elliott: We will refer to the bit of the road that you drive on as the pavement, yes.
18:45:47 <elliott> that's not a city, that's a... slum
18:46:00 <pikhq> elliott: That's a suburb of Phoenix, Arizona.
18:46:18 <elliott> so that's what a suburb is, you guys talk about them all the time, didn't really understand
18:46:33 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, Phoenix has around 3 times the population of Edinburgh, and 5 times the area.
18:46:36 <ais523> hmm, "suburb" is used in the UK too, but possibly with a different meaning
18:46:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
18:46:46 <elliott> ais523: well, i wouldn't think to use it to describe http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Scottsdale_cityscape4.jpg.
18:46:52 <ais523> it's the area of a major city outside the busy bit in the centre, and outside the ring of failed factories that's normally a bit beyond it
18:46:53 <fizzie> ais523: The protocol health messages are (possibly truncated to) Java shorts, but I don't know what it's kept internally.
18:46:57 <elliott> words like "horrible" seem to fit the bill much better.
18:47:23 <ais523> elliott: that doesn't look too different from a UK suburb, I think you're massively misjudging the scale
18:47:46 <elliott> ais523: no, I just think it' awful
18:47:52 <ais523> oh, I also think it's awful
18:47:56 <elliott> it looks like someone vomited houses on top of spaghetti rodes
18:47:58 <pikhq> ais523: Scottsdale, a suburb of Phoenix, is 184 square miles (477 km²).
18:48:11 <pikhq> ais523: Yes, 184 square miles of that.
18:48:22 <ais523> oh, that must be a different usage, "a suburb of" is meaningless in UK English
18:48:27 <elliott> I can't imagine living there at all.
18:48:33 <elliott> is that the city in the distance?
18:48:34 <pikhq> And a population of 245,000.
18:48:50 <elliott> pikhq: Americans aren't very down with the "talking and being nice to your neighbours" thing, are they?
18:49:02 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, wait, so it takes you people twice the area to house half the people?
18:49:03 <pikhq> elliott: Very far off would be Phoenix, I think.
18:49:03 <elliott> Or at least I can't imagine that's the case as getting from one house to another house in that picture looks non-trivial.
18:49:23 <pikhq> elliott: And neighbourliness is not very common any more, no.
18:49:39 <Ilari> That sort of things are entierely dependant on cars for transport. And those are dependent on LOTS of oil...
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18:49:48 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: City of, or metro area?
18:49:48 <elliott> so was phoenix built by university of phoenix graduates :>
18:50:14 <ais523> elliott: nah, it magically regenerated from a single ashtray
18:50:38 <pikhq> 16,000 square miles (37,744 km²).
18:50:46 <pikhq> Population of about 4 million.
18:50:58 <ais523> the US has a pretty screwed up population density
18:51:21 <pikhq> And now you know why mass transit basically doesn't exist in the US.
18:51:50 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: We have fewer trains now than we did 100 years ago.
18:52:05 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: And many cities have busses, but they're insanely hard to use.-
18:52:16 <pikhq> For instance, the bus route that runs near me runs 4 times a day.
18:53:10 <elliott> anyone have questions about my theory
18:53:29 <quintopia> ilari never linked the nethack video
18:53:44 <kfr> Public transport in the US is extremely advanced
18:53:46 <kfr> Just kidding
18:53:51 <elliott> you have to capitalise it right
18:54:28 <elliott> ais523: i'm at turn 159, and you're doing pretty good. :p
18:54:39 <elliott> Ilari is ineiros is fizzie.
18:54:46 <ais523> how are you watching the video turn by turn? or are you just reading?
18:55:33 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/USA-Urban-Areas.svg Here's a map of the places in the US with a population density over 1,000 people per square mile (193.1 /km²)
18:55:43 <quintopia> elliott: duh. we're all your sock puppets anyway.
18:55:48 <elliott> ais523: I watched the youtube video you linked and I didn't really process it :
18:55:59 <elliott> pikhq: what's that hole in the top-left
18:56:40 <elliott> copumpkin: oh, does it draw?
18:56:59 <pikhq> elliott: The state nearest it? Uh, Washington.
18:57:17 <copumpkin> elliott: I had a hole in upper left too
18:57:23 <pikhq> (state of, not the non-existent city in the District of Columbia)
18:57:31 <copumpkin> it's loading the xml file off the internet and drawing it as it arrives
18:57:47 <elliott> copumpkin: who doesn't love xml
18:58:00 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: There are no cities in the District of Columbia.
18:58:24 <pikhq> There is only the District of Columbia, which happens to be urban.
18:59:14 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/feb/02/british-superheroes-superman-batman-spider-man
18:59:28 <elliott> CORNWALL IS EATING THE SEARCH
18:59:31 <Phantom_Hoover> [[6. America is finally letting go of its regressive and slightly terrifying culture of anti-intellectualism
19:00:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, are your schools really the hellholes your media make them out to be?
19:00:31 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Let me put it this way: I fucked around and did nothing in high school.
19:00:37 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: I graduated with a 3.25 GPA.
19:00:53 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, I'm fucking around and doing nothing in high school.
19:01:11 <copumpkin> oh, I didn't go to school in the US
19:01:13 <elliott> AND THAT'S WHY YOU HAVE NO FUTURE, PHANTOM_HOOVER
19:01:13 <pikhq> Are you getting good grades while literally having not done homework for a semester?
19:01:44 <pikhq> I was also in 'honors' classes.
19:01:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I *occasionally* do homework, but that's just when I'm basically told that I will be in detention for the next week.
19:02:11 <pikhq> And, yeah, our public schools suck ass.
19:02:22 <pikhq> I am better at reading Japanese than many students are at reading English.
19:02:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Although that's really only with three of my 4 subjects.
19:03:10 <pikhq> There was a "remedial math" class. Covering grade school math.
19:03:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I got bumped up to the next year in physics and scheduling problems lead to me having some stuff thrust at me and being told to learn them, which I couldn't do in class because I also need to do the investigation.
19:03:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover's 4 subjects are phantom, hoovery, haberdashery, and ontology.
19:03:32 <pikhq> You could take it for the math requirement in high school.
19:03:45 <pikhq> Well, for part of it...
19:04:08 <pikhq> You could then move on to what you should have done in middle school, and *finish off* with Algebra I.
19:04:52 <elliott> ais523: "5 blessed scrolls of transportation", couldn't you just say "5 transportation blessed scrolls"
19:04:53 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: formerly pretty good, but getting worse by the year
19:04:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Suffice to say that the grade inflation is so rampant they have started adding new top grades because otherwise everyone would have As.
19:05:00 <pikhq> "Science" courses were basically "three years of trivia" courses.
19:05:04 <ais523> elliott: it wasn't golfed
19:05:13 <elliott> ais523: but the latter is more amusing
19:05:16 <ais523> the joke is that the standard wish there is for 4 /cursed/ scrolls of teleportation
19:05:24 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Grade inflation is not rampant here, because many people ACTUALLY FAIL HARD-CORE AT THESE THINGS.
19:05:31 <ais523> so we made it look like we'd just made a typo
19:05:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: A*************** would buy again
19:06:03 <ais523> pikhq: grade inflation is when the exams get easier year on year, regardless of how bad the students actually are
19:06:22 <pikhq> ais523: Okay, that happens in the US. A lot.
19:06:34 <pikhq> ais523: But, it doesn't help matters much.
19:06:37 <ais523> happens in the UK too, more so recently
19:06:44 <ais523> and doesn't help matters much either
19:06:46 * elliott reads a Stack Overflow conversation between I GIVE TERRIBLE ADVICE and JUST MY correct OPINION
19:06:51 <pikhq> Also, the whole depiction of the *social* environment that you get in high school on American TV?
19:06:58 <pikhq> Yeah, that's putting it lightly.
19:07:04 <Phantom_Hoover> I only recently learnt that you guys have *3* schools.
19:07:16 <ais523> I have the feeling that the US and England+Wales are on the same track, but the US is much further gone odwn it
19:07:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: wait what?
19:07:41 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, Scotland just introduced another curriculum thingy.
19:07:47 <ais523> (Scotland and Northern Ireland have separate education systems; from what I've heard, the Scottish system is much saner, and I don't know much about the Northern Irish system)
19:07:52 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Middle school and high school are very similar in structure, just with different age groups.
19:07:56 <kfr> <pikhq> Also, the whole depiction of the *social* environment that you get in high school on American TV?
19:08:00 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: is that a good thingy, or a bad thingy?
19:08:02 <kfr> JOCKS NERDS CHEERLEADERS
19:08:16 <pikhq> kfr: It's more inane than that.
19:08:18 <elliott> pikhq: middle school is painful in america?
19:08:18 <Phantom_Hoover> They still had the 11-plus until a couple of years ago; most of my cousins have sat it.
19:08:19 <ais523> cheerleaders mostly don't exist in the UK
19:08:26 <ais523> I mean, they do, but they aren't a part of culture or anything
19:08:44 <elliott> my /mother/ did the 11-plus, I think
19:08:48 <pikhq> elliott: High school with 11 year olds, basically.
19:09:00 <ais523> due to going to a selective secondary school
19:09:06 <ais523> I think that school still does it, actually
19:09:18 <ais523> although possibly they've renamed it
19:09:23 <kfr> lol the depictions of highschools in US movies/series always irritated me, where I grew up the people who specialised in sports were mostly considered losers who wouldn't get any higher education
19:09:24 <elliott> ais523: as long as your accent is sufficiently posh, you decadent capitalistic fascist monarchist somethingist!
19:09:32 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure how good an IQ test is at selecting entrants anyway
19:09:35 <pikhq> kfr: That's how it works.
19:09:47 <pikhq> kfr: Sports usually soak up all the funding, too.
19:09:51 <pikhq> kfr: Even more so at colleges.
19:09:52 <ais523> elliott: heh, when I was on the UK Olympic maths team, I was sent to a training camp and I was the only person there who wasn't in a posh public school
19:10:03 <ais523> and I sort-of picked up the accent, and was speaking incredibly poshly for a few days afterwards
19:10:04 <kfr> But in the US they actually give out scholarships to athletes? :o
19:10:11 <kfr> I'm not entirely sure why
19:10:14 <pikhq> kfr: Yes. Very yes.
19:10:21 <ais523> but not very many, typically
19:10:24 <pikhq> kfr: Very very very yes.
19:10:29 <Phantom_Hoover> kfr, there was a guy with a sports scholarship into my old school.
19:10:32 <elliott> what are we saying yes to?
19:10:34 <elliott> yes yes yes yes yes yes yes
19:10:41 <Phantom_Hoover> I hated him due to a general dislike of organised sport.
19:10:42 <pikhq> kfr: College sports are a big deal.
19:10:47 <kfr> They only give out scholarships to people who did very well at the subjects they want to study in highschool
19:10:56 <kfr> And to kids of migrants
19:11:00 <kfr> And the poor etc
19:11:02 <ais523> yes yes | perl -pe 's/\n/ /g'
19:11:05 <pikhq> kfr: It's on national TV. And popular.
19:11:15 <ais523> actually, that g is unnecessary
19:11:22 <elliott> ais523: yes|perl -pe's/y\n/yes /'
19:11:25 <kfr> I'm not even sure we had any sports teams in highschool
19:11:30 <ais523> elliott: is that actually shorter?
19:11:36 <kfr> I think there's a handball team at my university
19:11:39 <ais523> besides, I just wanted to add the "yes yes" because it's hilarious
19:11:44 <elliott> ais523: yes|perl -pe's/y./yes /'
19:11:51 <pikhq> kfr: Oh, and many of the sports scholarships are full rides.
19:11:51 <elliott> . doesn't match \n does it
19:11:54 <kfr> But it doesn't get any attention from the general public really
19:11:56 <ais523> yes(1) needs an argument to actually get it to say yes
19:12:05 <ais523> elliott: you can use the s modifier to get . to match \n
19:12:11 <ais523> but then you might as well say \n
19:12:23 <kfr> Furthermore, you generally don't need a scholarship around here, since most universities are free and have little to no tuition fees
19:12:29 <pikhq> kfr: Functionally, it's "pro sports, but you need to not fail college classes while you're at it."
19:12:38 <kfr> Unluckily mine is one of the first ones that introduced fees here :'(
19:12:42 <kfr> 1200 EUR/year
19:12:53 <kfr> Which is tame in comparison to US standards
19:12:56 <pikhq> kfr: ... That's a fucking bargain, and I spend more on books.
19:13:10 <kfr> It used to be 100 EUR/year :(
19:13:16 <kfr> When I first started
19:13:22 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, Scotland has free tuition for Scottish students nenenenenene
19:13:31 <pikhq> I spend more than that on transportation!
19:13:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: *na na na na na?
19:13:40 <pikhq> (30 mile drive. "Yay".)
19:13:47 <Phantom_Hoover> (Note: this is only possible due to Scotland being the spoilt daddy's boy of the UK.)
19:14:07 <elliott> ONE OF THESE DAYS WE'LL KICK YOU OUT
19:14:26 <pikhq> US colleges actually have to have remedial courses for students.
19:14:33 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, ISTR reading that the most recent budget thing was basically more of the same.
19:14:35 <kfr> If you live in a city you generally don't need a car around here either
19:14:38 <pikhq> Courses that cover "everything you should have learned in high school".
19:14:42 <ais523> elliott: let's settle this: http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Yes
19:14:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ONE OF THESE DAYS
19:14:46 <elliott> I'M GOING TO CUT YOU INTO LITTLE PIECES
19:14:48 <kfr> I've been going pretty much everywhere by bike since the age of 6
19:14:56 <kfr> I inherited a car when I was 14 but I sold it
19:15:26 <pikhq> (fortunately, they don't actually count towards a degree. They're just prereqs for classes if you fail a "show you aren't a complete moron" test.)
19:15:43 <elliott> ais523: someone just submitted a 16 byte perl solution with no name ...
19:15:59 <ais523> I'll resubmit with my actual name
19:16:03 <elliott> hmm, do newlines in the form submission still count as \r\n?
19:16:04 <pikhq> kfr: Nearly impossible here.
19:16:05 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, can you give me a precis of the education system in England? I don't really know how it works.
19:16:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you do school, then some more school, then you get your GCSEs, then you do 4 subjects at sixth form except it then becomes 3
19:16:30 <elliott> then you go to university and get into massive debt
19:16:47 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: potentially you go to nursery when very young, although that has nothing to do with the state
19:17:10 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought the debt was really weaksauce debt that was written off if you didn't get around to paying it?
19:17:22 <lambdabot> Data.List drop :: Int -> [a] -> [a]
19:17:24 <ais523> when you're around 5 you start going to primary school (year 1), which is the first compulsory year for full-time education; some schools optionally start earlier
19:17:29 <kfr> pikhq is that because people don't live close to where they work?
19:17:34 <ais523> typically one year earlier, although the school I went to started two years earlier
19:17:37 <kfr> Do people live outside the city?
19:17:38 <pikhq> kfr: s/don't/generally can't/
19:17:44 <ais523> and years before 1 have weird and not necessarily consistent names
19:17:57 <ais523> you stay there until year 7, when you're 11
19:18:10 <Phantom_Hoover> They don't know what stairs are in the US and they hate living next to other people.
19:18:12 <pikhq> kfr: It's really easy to be "in" a city and 10 miles away from the nearest *store*. Much less work.
19:18:16 <elliott> > unwords $ replicate 5 "yes"
19:18:23 <elliott> > concat$replicate 5"yes "
19:18:24 <ais523> there are mandatory exams called the SATs throughout this period (not the same ones as in the US), on specific years, which I forget
19:18:36 <ais523> but nothing particularly bad happens if you flunk them apart from the school getting annoyed, because it reflects badly on them
19:18:48 <ais523> err, you stay ther until year 6
19:19:03 <ais523> year 7 is the first year of "secondary school", which is generally an unrelated school to the primary school
19:19:07 <kfr> <pikhq> kfr: It's really easy to be "in" a city and 10 miles away from the nearest *store*. Much less work.
19:19:09 <elliott> ais523: my bad haskell solution:
19:19:10 <elliott> main=interact$unwords.(`replicate`"yes").(`div`2).length
19:19:14 <pikhq> kfr: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/San_Jose_California_aerial_view_south.jpg
19:19:26 <kfr> Odd stuff :|
19:19:31 <pikhq> That's all residential.
19:19:35 <ais523> and you stay there until year 11
19:19:45 <kfr> I'm used to cities being a totally random mix of stores, flats, bureaus etc
19:19:54 <kfr> I've been to the US though
19:19:57 <kfr> Newark/Manhattan
19:19:59 <ais523> there are SATs again on year 9, which are a little more important because the school normally uses them to determine what max grade of GCSE to enter you at
19:20:13 <ais523> then years 10 and 11 are dedicated to the GCSEs, which happen at the end of year 11
19:20:22 <pikhq> Not here. Zoning laws try to clump like things together, and encourage absurd sprawl.
19:20:25 <ais523> (and you can do them earlier in that time period; normally, a few papers will be earlier to avoid a rush)
19:20:40 <pikhq> You literally *can't* legally put a store in many of those residential areas.
19:20:45 <elliott> ais523: insufficient appreciation of my fun haskell solution!
19:21:00 -!- Tritonio has joined.
19:21:07 <ais523> typically schools have a lot of compulsory GSCEs (English, English Literature, Maths, at least single Combined Science, and a modern foreign lanugage)
19:21:11 <kfr> pikhq yeah somebody from the US told me about that before
19:21:19 <ais523> and a requirement to do a certain number of optional GCSEs beyond that
19:21:27 <Phantom_Hoover> <pikhq> Not here. Zoning laws try to clump like things together, and encourage absurd sprawl. ← wait, so city planning is that used in Sim City?
19:21:44 <kfr> I'm 24 and I've only lived in two places so far in two different cities and in both cases the super markets I primarily bought stuff from were 800 m and 1100 m from where I lived
19:21:44 <ais523> (note: I didn't do all the compulsory ones, for various insane reasons most of which were my fault)
19:21:48 <kfr> So, pretty close
19:21:53 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: still reading, btw?
19:21:53 <kfr> Short bike ride, very convenient
19:22:00 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, that's the inspiration for Sim City's zoning.
19:22:34 <ais523> scoring 0 on the appropriate SAT
19:22:41 <ais523> out of protest at the stupidity of the questions
19:22:56 <ais523> actually, that was the "mock" SAT we used for practice
19:23:14 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.julia-chandler.co.uk/images/Edinburgh-arial.jpg
19:23:14 <ais523> the official one, I was conveniently absent for so I didn't affect the school's statistics ;-)
19:23:17 <elliott> <ais523> (note: I didn't do all the compulsory ones, for various insane reasons most of which were my fault)
19:24:16 <kfr> http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2180/1811076056_2b482fedf6.jpg?v=0
19:24:23 <ais523> now, the insane things about the SATs - which nobody really cares about - and the GCSEs - which people /do/ care about - are that when a student is entered for them, the school chooses the maximum mark in advance
19:24:40 <kfr> ais523 that sounds so... wrong
19:24:45 <ais523> which is a number from 0 to 8, or possibly 9, in the SATs, and a grade from A to G in the GCSEs
19:24:54 <ais523> (Maths SATs go higher, for some reason)
19:24:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Maxim... wait, you can't get better than what the school prescribe?
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19:25:18 <pikhq> Come peak oil, most of the US is solidly fucked.
19:25:18 <ais523> the SATs are a little weird because technically the same scale's meant to measure young primary school students and secondary school students just about to start GSCE
19:25:44 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, did I interpret the maximum mark thing correctly?
19:25:50 <elliott> who gives a shit about SATs?
19:25:51 <ais523> so the idea is that you enter the little 8-year-olds or whatever with a max mark of maybe 3 if they're clever, and the 14-year-olds with a max mark of 6 if they're stupid
19:25:55 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: indeed
19:26:06 <ais523> if you choose a lower max mark, they give you an easier paper and then scale the marks down
19:26:08 <elliott> ais523: don't you mean foundation vs. higher?
19:26:14 <elliott> if so, that's a bit of a misrepresentation really
19:26:17 <ais523> elliott: that's what it's called in the GSCEs
19:26:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: tl;dr there's a stupid people paper and a slightly less stupid people paper
19:26:35 <elliott> and they give you the first if you're functionally retarded
19:26:37 <ais523> in SATs, it's literally "this is a grade 4 to grade 6 paper", and I think there's a paper for each 3-mark spread of grades
19:26:43 <elliott> the former only goes up to C mark
19:26:46 <ais523> elliott: I thought there were three tiers, actually
19:26:50 <ais523> or have they streamlined it
19:26:58 <pikhq> kfr: Oh, BTW. A typical US store: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/Wal-Mart_in_Madison_Heights.jpg
19:26:59 <elliott> ais523: well, it's only two for most things. i think science has some fucked up thing going on.
19:27:00 <ais523> actually, they probably did because going below even foundation shows a huge lack of ambition
19:27:08 <elliott> you could *go below foundation*?!?!?!
19:27:28 <kfr> pikhq ah they all have huge parking lots?
19:27:33 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, there are about 4 different kinds of "fail" at Standard Grade.
19:27:34 <kfr> Because everybody goes there by car?
19:27:55 <pikhq> kfr: Smaller stores will be bunched together with several other stores, and sharing a huge parking lot.
19:27:56 <ais523> science is triply screwed up, because in addition to the foundation vs. higher thing that determines the maximum grade, you can also choose the difficulty of the syllabus, as well as the difficulty of the paper
19:28:07 <ais523> and according to that, it counts as 1, 2, or 3 GCSEs
19:28:12 <elliott> what's the sed instruction for "grab the newline into this"?
19:28:13 <kfr> <pikhq> Come peak oil, most of the US is solidly fucked. <- well, they're just going to transition to battery powered vehicles in the next 50 years, no?
19:28:27 <elliott> ais523: you forgot TWENTY FIRST CENTURY SCIENCE
19:28:45 <ais523> for added fun, you're meant to do double science if you're planning to do science at A level, and triple science only if you're going to move onto something else but want to prove you can do science really
19:28:57 <ais523> the school I was at didn't let anyone do single science, it would have been too embarassing
19:29:00 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, is it actually true that the Scottish exams are preferred by English universities, or is this just propaganda?
19:29:08 <olsner> kfr: you don't make much money selling oil to people with electric cars...
19:29:14 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: that's a whole another scale of insanity, which I can get to in a bit
19:29:26 <kfr> olsner yes, that business will largely die out
19:29:30 <pikhq> olsner: You don't make much money selling non-existent oil.
19:29:37 <kfr> In 100 years from now gas stations will probably be a thing of the past
19:29:39 <ais523> anyway, once you've got the best GCSEs your school will let you at, you go to sixth form college
19:29:52 <ais523> which is often at the same school as your secondary school, but doesn't have to be
19:30:02 <pikhq> kfr: s/probably/certainly/
19:30:09 <pikhq> kfr: We don't have 100 more years of oil.
19:30:10 <Ilari> And don't forget agriculture. Done completely wrong and requires high fossil fuel inputs...
19:30:16 <ais523> alternatively, you can drop out of school altogether at this point, but are unlikely to get any work but manual labour with just GCSEs
19:30:17 <kfr> Since at that point it's probably not going to be economical to use oil derivatives
19:30:34 <ais523> sixth form college you do A levels, and the way they work is that they're each divided into six modules
19:30:55 <ais523> and there are more than six modules for each subject you can choose from, with certain combinations being illegal
19:30:57 <pikhq> The US is in for a gigantic shock, and possible complete economic collapse, come peak oil. It's really that freaking bad.
19:31:02 <kfr> pikhq well, the production is going to die down but in return so will the consumption and there will probably be untapped oil reserves for millenia to come, even ones we already know about
19:31:03 <ais523> and you can sort of mix-and-match them to make A levels
19:31:10 <kfr> But they are just too deep/impure etc
19:31:25 <ais523> and the name of your resulting qualification depends on just which ones you combine
19:31:38 <kfr> It's not like it's all going to be gone by then
19:31:58 <pikhq> I mean, I think New York City's the only major city that could survive without oil right now.
19:31:59 <ais523> you can also get an "AS level" by doing 3 rather than 6 modules; and expand it to an A level later on by doing an "A2 level", which is really just three modules that don't conflict with the first three
19:31:59 <elliott> ais523: there's AS-levels now
19:32:06 <elliott> you do four AS levels and then three A levels
19:32:20 <elliott> ais523: I don't think you can do 6 any more
19:32:29 <ais523> elliott: some schools would do four AS then three A2, expanding three of the AS levels to A levels
19:32:32 <ais523> elliott: 6 modules = 1 A level
19:32:33 <ais523> 3 modules = 1 AS level
19:32:46 <kfr> pikhq why economic collapse? Does the US economy heavily depend on the oil trade?
19:33:02 <ais523> there's also General Studies, which is a compulsory A level that everyone has to do, and nobody pays any attention to, so it has no real reason for existing
19:33:09 <ais523> it's also 6 modules, but most of them are on multiple subjects
19:33:10 <kfr> I thought the people who would suffer the biggest impact from peak oil would be the OPEC countries
19:33:17 <elliott> !c printf("%d\n",'y'+'\n');
19:33:21 <pikhq> kfr: The US economy heavily depends on the consumption of oil.
19:33:22 <ais523> (seriously: you can end up with, say, a Maths and Science /module/ in General Studies)
19:33:44 <ais523> and any time an employer or university says, say, "three A levels at B or higher", they don't count General Studies
19:33:50 <ais523> so it's not entirely clear why it exists
19:34:22 <Ilari> Telling figure I have heard about US agriculture: It takes 10 barrels of oil to produce one barrel energy worth of "edible" food...
19:34:23 <ais523> anyway, generally what people aim for is three good A levels, but schools normally hedge their bets by letting students to more
19:34:26 <ais523> so they can take the best three
19:34:31 <pikhq> kfr: Without oil, the US has: Almost no shipping. Almost no purchasing. Almost no employment. Almost no agriculture.
19:34:52 <kfr> Ohh I just realised major issues with peak oil
19:34:52 <elliott> !c printf("%x\n", *((int *)"yes "))
19:34:57 <kfr> Regarding transportation
19:34:59 <ais523> now, when it comes to university, the admissions process is basically based on a points system
19:35:13 <kfr> Naval transport and airplanes currently don't really have a battery based solution, do they?
19:35:15 <elliott> !c printf("%d\n", *((int *)"yes "))
19:35:34 <kfr> Although with ships it's probably easier than with planes I imagine
19:35:36 <pikhq> We suddenly would go poor and starving.
19:35:52 <elliott> !c printf("%d %d\n", strlen("20736579")+2, strlen("544433529"));
19:36:03 <ais523> here we go: http://www.ucas.ac.uk/students/ucas_tariff/tarifftables/
19:36:08 <pikhq> kfr: Nuclear power for naval transport is entirely practical, if more expensive than oil right now.
19:36:18 <Ilari> Ships can be powered with nuclear reactors. For airplanes... Well...
19:36:21 <kfr> but what about the airplanes?
19:36:25 <ais523> the general rule is that you're allowed to score up to 360 points, with a number of qualifications equivalent in difficulty to around 3 A levels
19:36:33 <pikhq> I'm not sure about airplanes.
19:36:33 <kfr> Right, there are already nuclear powered submarines anyways
19:36:37 <kfr> Possibly some bigger ships, too
19:36:49 <ais523> (A levels are down on that list as "GCE", btw, which is the general term for A levels and AS levels and all that sort of thing)
19:36:50 <kfr> I mean there are ultra light airplanes which operate on solar power and such
19:37:02 <kfr> But a battery driven 747?
19:37:07 <Ilari> There are already nuclear-powed ships...
19:37:27 <elliott> ais523: leonid just got 8 bytes for yes
19:37:31 <ais523> oh, they removed the ceiling and limits, now
19:37:42 <ais523> looks like my information is a little outdated
19:37:57 <ais523> but a typical university application requirement would be, say, "300 points from 3 qualifications"
19:38:11 <ais523> anyway, the thing about the UCAS tariff is that it includes all sorts of qualifications from all over the world
19:38:29 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: what's the Scottish qualification that a student there would get just before going to university?
19:38:42 <elliott> ais523: <leonid> lame challenge
19:39:11 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: typically 18, some students take a year off first so 19
19:39:24 <ais523> although there's no actual restriction, that's when it best fits into the education timings
19:39:35 <ais523> (you can go to university even at 50 or whatever if you've accumulated enough points)
19:39:37 <elliott> main(c){while(read(0,&c,2)>0)write(1,"yes ",4);}
19:39:51 <elliott> <leonid> gotta spam the server on luckbased solutions
19:40:02 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: 18/19, I think
19:40:22 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: anyway, your statement about Scottish qualifications being worth more than English ones seems correct: an A at Advanced Higher seems to be worth 130, with an A at a single A-level being worth 120
19:40:40 <ais523> although they added A* at A-level last year, and it's worth 140
19:40:48 <ais523> so presumably they decided to let England outdo Scotland again
19:40:56 <elliott> main(c){while(read(0,&c,2)>0)write(1,"yes ",4);}
19:41:05 <elliott> can't see how to shorten that
19:41:36 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: from a good school, you'd expect A to be more common than any other, especially nowadays
19:41:40 <ais523> although straight As to be relatively rare
19:41:56 <ais523> for instance, I got multiple As, but not straight As
19:42:58 <ais523> anyway, when you apply to university, you do it via UCAS, and list six courses you want to go on
19:43:15 <ais523> together with some information about yourself, and the grades you have so far and expect to get in the future
19:43:35 <elliott> "I've got straight As so far, but expect to start failing immediately."
19:43:37 <ais523> UCAS sends the information on to the universities that do the courses you've listed
19:44:07 <ais523> for courses which are in low demand, it's probably just done automatically, set at "300 UCAS points, not counting general studies or more than three qualifications", or something around there
19:44:20 <ais523> with people looking manually at applications that are predicted to come in below the cutoff, but not that much below
19:44:29 <ais523> (300's around typical for a course in medium demand at a good university)
19:44:44 <elliott> ais523: how do you include stdin in m4 again?
19:44:44 <ais523> for courses which are in high demand, they review them by hand, and even ask for interviews
19:44:53 <ais523> elliott: include(/dev/stdin), IIRC
19:45:01 <elliott> ais523: */dev/fd/0, shorter!
19:45:19 <ais523> and universities can put any restrictions they want on applying
19:45:30 <ais523> normally, it's just a requirement to actually achieve your predicted grades, which is what it was for me
19:45:37 <ais523> hmm, I'll wait a while before starting this again, then
19:45:47 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: let me know when you're back
19:46:45 <ais523> (meanwhile, for fun, /me reads the report on why UCAS decided that A-levels were an acceptable qualification for university admission)
19:47:00 <ais523> (it'd have been hilarious if they decided they weren't...)
19:47:29 <elliott> define(y,yes)changeword(`.*\n')include
19:47:32 <elliott> hmm, why doesn't that work...
19:47:39 <elliott> it just copies the changeword stuff literally
19:48:24 <ais523> isn't changeword a GNU extension?
19:48:38 <ais523> gah, this specification is formatted badly, the letters are random distances above the baseline
19:48:50 <ais523> elliott: are you reading it too?
19:48:56 <elliott> <ais523> isn't changeword a GNU extension?
19:49:10 <ais523> but I'm not sure about change/word/
19:50:01 <ais523> "After much deliberation and discussion, and despite some reservations which could not be resolved on the basis of the evidence currently available, the Expert Group arrived at a unanimous decision that there was an indication of increased stretch and challenge in the new GCE A Level specifications, and that an A* grade should attract 140 UCAS Tariff points."
19:50:31 <fizzie> What's up with Amazon.co.uk? The book is £K in the item description page and in the shopping cart, then when I "proceed to checkout", select my address and the "free super saver delivery" option, the item price has turned into £(K+4)
19:50:53 <ais523> fizzie: perhaps the free delivery isn't that free for the item you're buying
19:50:56 <fizzie> Approximately; K+4.13 or so more exactly.
19:51:08 <fizzie> No, it's "postage and packing £0.00".
19:51:12 <fizzie> It's the item price that changes.
19:51:15 <elliott> Why is fizzie buying from the uk.
19:51:30 <fizzie> elliott: Because Amazon.com doesn't do free delivery into Finland?
19:51:54 <fizzie> (And Amazon.de price is about 25% higher, and I don't think they do free delivery either.)
19:52:02 <elliott> we must eliminate this at once
19:52:11 <ais523> hmm, according to this report, A levels are 4 modules rather than 6 in most subjects nowadays
19:52:16 <kfr> Vitun Amazoni paska
19:52:23 <fizzie> And I'm not yet sure if I am buying, I don't like this price-change.
19:53:15 <elliott> fizzie: we apologise for the price change, you dirty finnish expletive!
19:53:28 <elliott> that's what you get for buying books in Ks
19:53:55 -!- showstopper has joined.
19:53:55 <fizzie> Oh, it might be a VAT rate change thing.
19:54:07 <fizzie> They adjusted that by 1% not long ago here, I think.
19:54:59 <elliott> Yes, we have a vat of acid thing.
19:55:05 <elliott> showstopper: the shoe goes on i'm afraid
19:55:27 <fizzie> "For orders being delivered to other countries within the EU, Amazon.co.uk will charge VAT according to the VAT rate applicable within that country."
19:55:36 <ais523> fizzie: yes, that would make sense
19:55:40 <ais523> what's VAT in Finland?
19:56:43 <ais523> ah, it's 0% for books in the UK atm, and around 20% in general (I think it was just increased)
19:57:03 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: my research in the break indicates that my information is slightly outdated; most A-levels are 4 (larger) modules nowadays, rather than 6
19:57:07 <ais523> although Maths is still 6
19:57:23 <fizzie> Yes, the help center says the general rate was increased from 17.5 to 20, but buuks are still 0%.
19:57:40 <ais523> anyway, applying to university, you list up to 6 courses you want to go on (often the same thing at different universities, e.g. I applied for electronic engineering at Birmingham and Aston universities)
19:57:48 <elliott> HAPPY BIRFDAY FANTOM HOOFER
19:57:57 <fizzie> Yeah, the relative difference is indeed 1.09.
19:58:27 <ais523> UCAS send the applications on to the universities, who decide whether to unconditionally accept (incredibly rare due to the usual lack of information), reject (quite common), or conditionally accept (also quite common)
19:58:44 <ais523> some universities care only about points total, but it's more common to put other requirements on there too
19:58:58 <ais523> e.g. I think for me, the requirement was BBB or higher including Maths and either Physics or Chemistry
19:59:10 <ais523> (with me being able to choose the third A-level to make up the requirement)
19:59:35 <ais523> they're given predicted grades so they can determine requirements that would be likely to be met; e.g. the university already knew I was doing Maths, Physics, and Chemistry A-levels, with a prediction of at least a B in each
20:00:05 <ais523> some universities (particularly Oxford and Cambridge) have much more stringent conditional requirements, including extra exams, etc
20:00:26 <ais523> there's a qualification called STEP which is basically purely for the purpose of entrance to Cambridge for doing maths
20:00:38 <fizzie> Also now that I actually look at the final order page, there is a "see details" link that shows pre-VAT prices too.
20:00:44 <ais523> and I took it just for fun (and got the highest grade band, S, which is something like 30% higher than the next-highest grade band)
20:00:49 <elliott> not that stringent, my friend got in and he's a buffoon!
20:01:02 <ais523> elliott: hmm, do you know what his offer was?
20:01:08 <elliott> ais523: he's told me before, but I'll ask
20:01:12 <ais523> you generally do because people tend to get very excited to receive offers
20:01:17 <Phantom_Hoover> I got given some STEP papers to stop my brain from atrophying.
20:01:30 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: that's actually probably its real purpose
20:01:36 <elliott> ais523: "Three As I think", evidently as his Oxford education progresses his memory deteriorates
20:01:45 <elliott> "Probably the two in maths and further maths were compulsory but I forget"
20:02:04 <ais523> you know you're in for a fun exam when it has around 25 questions, and the instructions say you only have to do 6
20:02:09 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, yes, except that I have ended up facing two years with no formal mathematical studies whatsoever.
20:02:42 <ais523> that wasn't really a problem at my school, because although I was very ahead on maths, there were plenty more modules to choose from
20:02:47 <ais523> I ended up doing 13 in the end
20:03:00 -!- leonid has joined.
20:03:01 <ais523> I still have a Maths module lying around that isn't used for anything
20:03:17 <leonid> please refrain from submitting boring challenges to anagol.. thanks
20:03:20 <ais523> (the computers automatically calculate the best sequence and combinations to "cash in" modules in)
20:03:27 <fizzie> Universities here in general have their own entrance exams, except that there's the (smaller) "paper selection" quota from which they pick by a score generated from high school final grades and the matriculation examination scores.
20:03:36 <elliott> leonid: ais can do what he wants, he's magical
20:03:45 <ais523> leonid: we were arguing over that particular task in-channel
20:04:05 <leonid> is there even anything to argue about that
20:04:30 <ais523> well, the shortest way to do it
20:04:34 <ais523> isn't that what golfing's about?
20:05:02 <elliott> 19:27:00 <ais523> yes yes | perl -pe 's/\n/ /g'
20:05:02 <elliott> 19:27:13 <ais523> actually, that g is unnecessary
20:05:02 <elliott> 19:27:20 <elliott> ais523: yes|perl -pe's/y\n/yes /'
20:05:02 <elliott> 19:27:28 <ais523> elliott: is that actually shorter?
20:05:03 <elliott> 19:27:30 <elliott> dunno :D
20:05:05 <elliott> 19:27:42 <elliott> ais523: yes|perl -pe's/y./yes /'
20:05:09 <elliott> 19:27:49 <elliott> . doesn't match \n does it
20:05:17 <elliott> 19:30:40 <ais523> elliott: let's settle this: http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Yes
20:05:25 <ais523> anagolf doesn't let you do the -pe bit without wasting loads of lines, though
20:05:56 <leonid> forgot to put the space
20:05:59 <elliott> is that ais523's perl solution?
20:06:05 <ais523> so the 16-byte Perl that I did (and accidentally submitted anonymously to start off with) was entirely different
20:06:37 <ais523> I'd be surprised if leonid had used a different approach
20:06:47 <ais523> also, I'm not entirely convinced that's unbeatable, although it probably is
20:07:18 <ais523> how did you guess that the task stemmed from an argument in #esoteric anyway?
20:07:29 <leonid> because elliott said so..
20:08:03 <ais523> elliott: I didn't realise you were in touch with the anagolf community
20:08:23 <ais523> yep, I'm aware of the channel
20:08:30 <elliott> I joined when you submitted :P
20:08:35 <ais523> just to see the reaction?
20:11:44 <ais523> hmm, it's not worth trying a cheat solution because it would also be 16 bytes, and operator precedence doesn't work out
20:13:39 -!- showstopper has left (?).
20:15:12 <ais523> now I'm wondering what a BF solution to that would look like
20:15:29 <ais523> you can exploit the fact that the first character is always 'y' to make your text gen a bit easier
20:16:38 <quintopia> does fungo t do GolfScript? does Ego?
20:17:37 <ais523> I don't think either do
20:17:45 <ais523> fungot is just BF and Underload, IIRC
20:17:45 <fungot> ais523: if i had money to buy it
20:18:00 <ais523> fungot: you do realise GolfScript doesn't cost money, right?
20:18:00 <fungot> ais523: and setslot can be implemented via cwv, i think
20:18:16 <fizzie> I think that's some sort of rudimentary sarcasm.
20:18:17 <ais523> although the possibility of embedded Ruby might be a little hard to implement in Befunge-98
20:18:27 -!- yiyus_ has joined.
20:18:47 <ais523> wow, someone with an actual ident server
20:18:56 <ais523> that doesn't happen too often...
20:19:24 <elliott> ais523: mirc comes with an identd that runs just for connection
20:19:29 <ais523> heh, apparently comex has one too
20:19:32 <elliott> but, er, most identds are just fake identds
20:19:37 <elliott> i.e. constant response no matter what
20:19:39 <fizzie> I resemble that remark; fungot doesn't listen to me at all if I don't have an identd running.
20:19:39 <fungot> fizzie: how about fnord
20:19:41 <ais523> hmm, would that work behind a NAT?
20:19:42 -!- yiyus has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:19:45 <elliott> e.g. https://github.com/cooper879/fake-identd/blob/master/identd
20:20:43 <comex> oident 4940 0.0 0.0 1960 560 ? Ss Jan03 0:00 /usr/sbin/oidentd -mf -P 192.168.1.1 -u oident -g oident
20:20:45 <fizzie> (It's just string-matching the whole :nick!user@host prefix for the admin commands.)
20:21:03 <elliott> 12:49:14 <AnMaster> C is a language I use µemacs for
20:21:03 <elliott> i wonder if he's still crazy
20:21:05 <olsner> what does "exec is denied" imply for bash solutions?
20:21:26 <ais523> elliott: the date would be more useful than the times
20:21:31 <fizzie> oidentd is what I'm running too; whatever was there by default didn't listen for IPv6.
20:21:42 <comex> not my server, though
20:21:46 <comex> I wouldn't have bothered ;p
20:21:49 <elliott> ais523: it's just copy-paste
20:22:07 <ais523> elliott: really? I thought it meant you could use only bash builtins
20:22:39 <ais523> whether bash respects exec-is-denied
20:23:03 <ais523> not even to, say, perl(1) or ruby(1)?
20:24:47 <ais523> I mean, could you just say perl -e '16 byte perl solution here' and have it work?
20:25:15 <leonid> everything other than socket-related stuff is allowed
20:27:49 <ais523> in that case, I just did bash in just over half the length of ehird's solution
20:27:56 <ais523> using the old Perl trick of writing a literal UNIX newline, rather than \n
20:28:22 <leonid> old, but not dead trick
20:29:19 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if I can beat fizzie's Befunge-93?
20:30:19 <fizzie> Quite possibly, I don't even reuse any instructions multiple ways.
20:30:21 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:30:29 -!- elliott has joined.
20:30:33 <ais523> what does ~ do on EOF, again?
20:30:37 <elliott> forgot to forward the port
20:30:53 <elliott> I didn't know fizzie was the golfing sort.
20:31:11 <ais523> also, http://catseye.tc/projects/befunge93/doc/befunge93.html is down
20:31:15 <ais523> because it claims to be XHTML
20:31:24 <ais523> but is actually really old-fashioned html
20:31:37 <ais523> any idea how to get my browser to render it?
20:31:49 <elliott> because everyone's an idiot as far as xhtml goes
20:31:53 <ais523> well, the MIME type is lying
20:32:00 <elliott> ais523: doesn't matter, postel's law is being violated
20:32:02 <ais523> can I tell my browser that it's lying, somehow?
20:32:31 <fizzie> ais523: On the reference impl, it returns -1.
20:32:37 <ais523> elliott: well, it's violated one way or another no matter what
20:32:46 <fizzie> ais523: And I read it using the Google cache copy.
20:32:57 -!- elliott has quit (Client Quit).
20:33:16 -!- elliott has joined.
20:33:17 <olsner> if I submit something on that golf thingy, can I resubmit when/if I come up with something shorter?
20:33:28 <elliott> * *** Couldn't look up your hostname
20:33:30 <elliott> * *** Your username is invalid. Please make sure that your username contains only alphanumeric characters.
20:33:47 <fizzie> elliott: I'm not usually the golfing type, I just occasionally throw in some simple Befunge solutions.
20:34:04 <ais523> it'll only take your shortest solution
20:34:05 -!- elliott has quit (Client Quit).
20:34:12 <ais523> you can use a paren identifier of a longer solution is interesting somehow
20:34:17 -!- elliott has joined.
20:34:23 <ais523> e.g. olsner(not cheat), or olsner(alnum) if it's purely alphanumeric
20:34:35 <ais523> elliott: that's pretty pretty
20:34:36 <olsner> hmm, doesn't seem my solution is the shortest one anymore though
20:34:43 <elliott> ais523: oh, it was just a test
20:34:43 <ais523> olsner: sohrtest with your name
20:34:46 <ais523> *shortest with your name
20:35:03 <elliott> ais523: I plan to start connecting via a bouncer on a server once I get one up and running, and construct my username so that my () part becomes my email
20:35:05 <olsner> yah, just that it's not so pointful if someone else has already done it better
20:35:10 <elliott> * elliott (elliott@blah.org) has joined #esoteric
20:35:33 <elliott> ais523: (alnum) you should probably turn on code stats
20:35:50 <ais523> I do alnum, or alpha, on occasion, mostly in Perl
20:35:53 <elliott> here's my authentic, organic, homemade ident.sh:
20:35:55 <elliott> echo "$line : USERID : UNIX : ehird"
20:36:07 <elliott> sudo nc -l -p 113 -e ./ident.sh
20:36:27 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:36:42 <elliott> /\d*, \d*. { print $0 ": USERID : UNIX : ehird" }
20:36:47 <elliott> but then realised that that was pointless
20:36:52 <ais523> wouldn't you want it to work for multiple usages?
20:37:01 <elliott> ais523: hook it up to inetd or whatever
20:37:01 <ais523> fizzie: done it in 18 chars of Unefunge-93
20:37:08 <elliott> you don't want it running when nobody wants to find out who you are
20:37:12 <elliott> so having it only handle one request is best
20:37:12 <fizzie> ais523: Mine is in Unefunge too.
20:37:18 <elliott> that also closes the connection for you
20:37:26 <ais523> that puzzle doesn't really need a second dimension
20:37:31 <elliott> Vorpal: did you ever write that client/server IRC client you were going to write?
20:37:37 -!- cheater- has joined.
20:39:25 <ais523> elliott: this UCAS site has the most ridiculous way to present an FAQ I've seen: http://www.ucas.ac.uk/students/ucas_tariff/faqs/
20:39:36 <ais523> basically, it's a list of questions, each of which is on its own page, together with the answer
20:39:44 <ais523> each question page has the whole list on it
20:39:57 <ais523> and also a link saying "back to list", which goes back to the original list page which also has the list on
20:41:04 <ais523> I can't see any reason for that level of redundancy
20:41:17 <ais523> nor why they don't just put the whole list of questions together with their answers on one page, it's rather short
20:43:08 * pikhq really looks forward to the death of NAT.
20:43:31 <ais523> pikhq: do you think IPv4 running out will increase or decrease NAT?
20:44:35 <pikhq> ais523: The typical "map a network onto 1 public address" NAT does not exist in IPv6.
20:45:01 <ais523> pikhq: yes, but I fear instead of leading to IPv6, it'll lead to more and more heavily NATted IPv4
20:45:27 <pikhq> ais523: To NAT the growth of IPv4 would cost much, much more than IPv6.
20:45:43 <ais523> pikhq: yes, but that doesn't mean it's not going to happen
20:46:05 <pikhq> Not to mention nearly impossible to keep up for more than a couple of years.
20:46:32 <pikhq> And during those two years, there will be IPv6-only hosts going up.
20:46:45 <pikhq> Making IPv6 migration actually necessary *anyways*.
20:47:53 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: did you ever write that client/server IRC client you were going to write? <-- I applied your approach at programming, breadth first :P
20:48:01 <pikhq> And keep in mind, that in order to actually be capable of NATing growth by the time IPv4 is depleted, they would need to start now...
20:48:26 <elliott> Vorpal: i invented the most elegant possible irc client architecture, personally
20:48:29 <pikhq> And you'd need to kinda create hardware capable of doing so.
20:48:50 <pikhq> Cause dear *God* NAT is state-heavy.
20:49:32 <pikhq> And the demands placed on carrier grade NAT are only going to get worse.
20:51:16 <ais523> pikhq: is full-cone NAT better or worse wrt state?
20:52:09 <fizzie> ais523: Stripped one more byte of the Befunge (well, Unefunge) solution, it ties with Perl now. (Via the ludicrously low-tech method of stripping out the unnecessary newline. Which seems to make the reference bef-2.21 put a -1 in the file itself and complain about "Unsupported instruction 'ÿ' (0xffffffff) (maybe not Befunge-93?)", but of course that doesn't matter since it's just stderr.)
20:52:17 <elliott> Vorpal hasn't asked me what my architecture is, I wonder why
20:52:31 <pikhq> ais523: Much better regarding state, but *really* doesn't scale.
20:53:27 <ais523> fizzie: I didn't put a final newline on mine
20:53:54 <ais523> so you must have a better algo
20:54:30 <Vorpal> elliott, you usually think that, so what is the difference? I'm a bit preoccupied...
20:55:24 <elliott> Vorpal: well irc client architecture, is there anything more interesting?
20:56:03 <Ilari> And NAT will also emit logs like crazy if one is to log enough data to trace back connections...
20:56:14 <pikhq> But, yeah. The typical NAT setup involves actual stateful connection-tracking, and typically requires actual inspection of packets.
20:56:40 <pikhq> Rather than just taking a peek at the header and doing some simple address translation.
20:56:41 <Ilari> Also, CGN is wiki vandal / forum troll's best friend...
20:57:15 <pikhq> And there is no way you're going to offer Internet service that "just works" without this stateful NAT.
20:57:34 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Carrier grade NAT.
20:57:43 <elliott> Cognate Garbage Netmeister.
20:57:48 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Where you place customers behind a NAT and give them a private address.
20:58:05 <Ilari> Not to mention, GCN breaks the heck out of stuff. Even stuff that "works through NAT".
20:58:14 <pikhq> Oh, and one of the really annoying bits is that behind *this* will probably be another NAT.
20:58:30 <pikhq> NATNATNAT breaks quite a lot.
20:58:56 <pikhq> "Network Address Translation".
20:59:08 <pikhq> The magic sauce that consumer routers do to host a whole network on one public address.
20:59:22 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Rather than just taking a peek at the header and doing some simple address translation. <-- uh how could it work without being stateful?
20:59:31 <ais523> it basically uses the port number as another 16 bits in an IPv4 address
20:59:37 <ais523> and is rather insane, because that's not what the port number is designed for
20:59:41 <pikhq> Vorpal: Having statically defined mappings.
20:59:41 <quintopia> and stores the real ports elsewhere
20:59:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, but wouldn't that break connecting out if the port didn't happen to match?
21:00:03 <pikhq> Vorpal: Quite obviously, this doesn't work in the general case.
21:00:20 <quintopia> or does it do IP+port->new IP+port? counting on the fact that people don't use that many ports?
21:00:21 <ais523> btw, is "zygoprehistomorphism" a real word, or just a parody of Haskell programmers?
21:00:39 <olsner> *Zygohistomorphic prepromorphism
21:00:47 <pikhq> quintopia: It maps from private IP+port to public IP+port.
21:01:01 <elliott> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Zygohistomorphic_prepromorphisms
21:01:02 <copumpkin> edwardk recently simplified the definition of it
21:01:06 <elliott> Used when you really need both semi-mutual recursion and history and to repeatedly apply a natural transformation as you get deeper into the functor. Zygo implements semi-mutual recursion like a zygomorphism. Para gives you access to your result à la paramorphism.
21:01:07 <elliott> import Control.Morphism.Zygo
21:01:07 <elliott> import Control.Morphism.Prepro
21:01:07 <elliott> import Control.Morphism.Histo
21:01:07 <elliott> import Control.Functor.Algebra
21:01:09 <elliott> import Control.Functor.Extras
21:01:11 <elliott> zygohistomorphic_prepromorphism :: Functor f => Algebra f b -> GAlgebra f (Cofree f) a -> (f :~> f) -> FixF f -> a
21:01:13 <quintopia> pikhq: so it breaks if you set up a popular passive ftp behind it frex?
21:01:16 <elliott> zygohistomorphic_prepromorphism f = g_prepro (distZygoT (liftAlgebra f) (distHisto id))
21:01:18 <elliott> -- unless you want a generalized zygomorphism.
21:01:20 <elliott> do you understand now, ais523?
21:01:26 <copumpkin> there's a newer simpler definition
21:01:32 <pikhq> quintopia: It does so by keeping track of *every connection* going through it, so it knows what mapping to use...
21:01:34 <elliott> simpler than that?! but it's so obvious
21:01:37 <olsner> copumpkin: cool, is it understandable now?
21:01:42 <pikhq> quintopia: It breaks any incoming connection, actually.
21:01:47 <Vorpal> elliott, that looks like bullshit to me...
21:02:00 <elliott> but it's not very useful :)
21:02:08 <copumpkin> https://github.com/ekmett/recursion-schemes/blob/master/Data/Functor/Foldable.hs#L424
21:02:14 <pikhq> quintopia: The only way to incoming connections to work in general is to statically define a mapping.
21:02:17 <Ilari> Hmmph... One seemingly can't properly exclude stock photo sites in google image search.
21:02:19 <quintopia> pikhq: so it's impossible to set up a server behind a NAT and expect it to work?
21:02:25 <ais523> elliott: err, I was looking at a different tab for a moment, let me try to pares backlog
21:02:28 <copumpkin> the basic point is that you can compose recursion schemes
21:02:28 <pikhq> quintopia: Basically.
21:02:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't get the joke but I can see it is there what with a statement like "Zygo implements semi-mutual recursion like a zygomorphism. Para gives you access to your result à la paramorphism."
21:02:44 <copumpkin> so someone came up with a ridciulously complex-sounding composition of simpler recursion schemes
21:02:51 <pikhq> quintopia: Amusingly, it's *possible* for normal FTP to work behind a NAT — though it usually doesn't.
21:03:10 <Ilari> I mean: Putting -site on some other type of site will seemingly exclude it rather nicely. But it just drops priority of stock photo sites somewhat...
21:03:12 <ais523> copumpkin: hmm, that makes a lot of sense
21:03:18 <pikhq> quintopia: You can just have FTP-specific state tracking so that the NAT device creates the appropriate mapping on demand.
21:03:41 <copumpkin> so while zygohistormorphic prepromorphism sounds scary
21:03:41 <fizzie> And you can do the same for IRC DCC stuff.
21:03:46 <pikhq> Quite obviously, this is even *more* ridiculous than usual.
21:04:05 <elliott> not as ridiculous as ... ducks
21:04:09 <copumpkin> it's a bit like calling f . g . h . i by the name of fghi
21:04:10 <Vorpal> Ilari, maybe they pay google for that?
21:04:15 <ais523> fizzie: most home router NATs do special-case DCC, IIRC
21:04:18 <pikhq> So, yeah. It's a hack that breaks the whole *idea* of internetworking.
21:04:29 <fizzie> Some (many) NATs also use the full (external IP, external port, destination IP, destination port) quadruplets for choosing the correct (internal IP, internal port) pair, so they can reuse the same (external IP, external port) for many clients as long as they don't connect to the same target address.
21:04:34 <Ilari> IIRC, it worked earlier, but has now been broken for months...
21:04:36 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if you could use fake DCC connections in order to effectively open ports inbound?
21:05:05 <fizzie> ais523: Most of them also do UPnP which is designed for that, so...
21:05:10 <pikhq> ais523: Probably not necessary; many NAT devices nowadays support UPnP, letting you explicitly request an open port.
21:05:15 <quintopia> fizzie: and when they do connect to the same address? :P
21:05:18 <ais523> I don't know enough about home routing as I should
21:05:29 <fizzie> quintopia: Then you just don't reuse the port.
21:05:31 <ais523> I'd rather like to know how to open ports inbound
21:05:48 <ais523> so I can use a bit of quick webserving or whatever to send people files
21:05:49 <pikhq> If any (ANY) consumer ISPs offer /128s to customers I'm going to go ballistic, BTW.
21:06:05 <ais523> pikhq: as long as they make them work properly, why not?
21:06:21 <pikhq> ais523: IPv6 NAT is undefined.
21:06:23 <Ilari> I think longest prefix I have heard is /64...
21:06:41 <elliott> how big's a /4096, like one thousandth of an address?
21:06:47 <pikhq> ais523: All this one-to-many mapping stuff *does not exist* for IPv6.
21:06:50 <Ilari> Note that many CPEs have problems with anything other than /64.
21:07:09 <ais523> hmm... suppose you want a setup where you have a wireless router in the house, and any number of computers can connect to it at once and use the Internet
21:07:19 <ais523> what size subnet should the house be given by the ISP? /64? /56?
21:07:20 <fizzie> Ilari: A SixXS predecessor used to use /126 subnets for their IPv6-in-IPv4 tunnel networks. (Then they routed a /64 or /48 over that.)
21:07:42 <Ilari> Ah, yeah, PtP links can also use /126 or /127.
21:07:44 <pikhq> ais523: /64 or /48.
21:07:53 <quintopia> pikhq: what's wrong with a /128 in the meantime and in between time when IPv6 is not well integrated yet?
21:08:11 <ais523> pikhq: and a /64 would work by giving each computer a different public address in the same /64?
21:08:12 <fizzie> pikhq: Isn't /56 the new /48 anyway?
21:08:29 <ais523> elliott: it's exponential
21:08:32 <pikhq> quintopia: A) that's enough address for a *single computer*. B) the last 64 bits are an interface identifier.
21:08:33 <ais523> so the word for how small it is doesn't exist
21:08:47 <ais523> it's a 2^-4032th of an address
21:08:53 <Phantom_Hoover> http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1003/1003.6087v1.pdf
21:09:03 <Phantom_Hoover> [[We originally wrote this article in Word, but then we converted it to Latex to make it look more like science.]]
21:09:10 <fizzie> ais523: I think it's pretty likely that giving a /64 and setting it up so that all the computers are in the same Ethernet segment is going to be the most usual configuration. (But that's just a guess.)
21:09:19 <pikhq> ais523: AKA "how the Internet is intended to work."
21:09:21 <ais523> I like that configuration, I think
21:09:55 <ais523> and the ISP would presumably set the router as the gateway for that prefix, with the computers connected to the router setting it as the gateway for everything?
21:10:04 <ais523> OK, this is beautifully sane
21:10:05 <Phantom_Hoover> `addquote We originally wrote this article in Word, but then we converted it to Latex to make it look more like science. — A. Gelman and G. Romero
21:10:19 <pikhq> ais523: This is how the Internet was supposed to work from day 1.
21:10:24 <HackEgo> 287) We originally wrote this article in Word, but then we converted it to Latex to make it look more like science. — A. Gelman and G. Romero
21:10:48 <fizzie> ais523: Actually usually I think the router is just set to bridging mode, and the ISP will send router advertisements advertising a single address inside the /64 (on their side of the link) as the default router. Then all the computers will use that.
21:11:49 -!- s1sm0 has joined.
21:11:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: try avoiding unicode
21:12:05 <elliott> `addquote <A. Gelman and G. Romero> We originally wrote this article in Word, but then we converted it to Latex to make it look more like science.
21:12:06 <HackEgo> 287) <A. Gelman and G. Romero> We originally wrote this article in Word, but then we converted it to Latex to make it look more like science.
21:12:10 <pikhq> None of this defective single-address-per-house bullshit.
21:12:20 <ais523> fizzie: I take it the router's still responsible for routing the messages from the ISP back to the individual computers that own the addresses, though
21:12:50 <ais523> by gateway, I meant that all the ISP would know would be that (insert router address here) was the next hop, and not really care about what the final destination was
21:12:52 <fizzie> ais523: Not if it's configured in a purely bridging mode, like they are here. The ISP side will send Ethernet frames with the correct destination addresses directly.
21:13:12 <ais523> but it's still sending them to the router
21:13:22 <ais523> just with an address other than the router's on the envelope
21:13:26 <ais523> so it knows to, you know, route it
21:13:37 <fizzie> It's not "route" if it happens on the link layer level.
21:14:13 -!- s1sm0 has left (?).
21:14:49 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if IPv4 NATs are Turing-complete if you connect them round in a cycle, or something like that
21:14:57 <ais523> umm, bounded-storage, I mean
21:15:23 <fizzie> On the IP level, the "router" would be completely invisible. Though of course it would be perfectly possible for them to set it up that way that the physical router box on the customer's side has a single address from the /64, the computers use that as a router, and the router box is then configured to forward onwards to the ISP.
21:15:49 <pikhq> fizzie: Uh... I'm not sure that'd work on many ISP's setups.
21:16:09 <ais523> I was just wondering about whether the ISP would need to track each individual computer in the /64 in order to know how to route
21:16:27 <Ilari> Depends on setup. Some do, some don't.
21:16:56 <elliott> 16:10:02 <ehird> it would be perfect for implementing a bug-free, efficiently multithreaded real-time clock + infix calculator hybrid application
21:16:56 <elliott> 16:10:13 <soupdragon> woah
21:16:56 <elliott> 16:11:32 <ehird> i just broke soupdragon's BRAIN
21:16:56 <elliott> 16:12:05 <soupdragon> yeah that was like when the guy went through the worm hole and it turned out the planet of the apes was earth
21:16:57 <elliott> 16:12:31 <soupdragon> everything just turned upside down and inside out
21:16:58 <pikhq> fizzie: I know that typically, on cable Internet, the ISP side is essentially an Ethernet bus containing all the packets from the users in the region, with the modem acting as a switch.
21:16:59 <elliott> 16:12:49 <soupdragon> for an instant everything was one
21:17:09 <fizzie> ais523: They have to if the router is being a dumb bridge; but it might be our ISP is using that because they've been using a set-your-router-in-bridging-mode setup for IPv4 too.
21:17:36 <ais523> I suppose I think it's semantically neatest to consider a house like a mini-network
21:17:44 <ais523> with a router being the "next hop" just like another ISP would be
21:17:45 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined.
21:17:51 <ais523> and not worrying about the details of what happens inside there
21:18:03 <fizzie> pikhq: I don't know about any statistics, but I've seen a reasonable amount of setups that do something like PPPoE.
21:18:14 -!- Tritonio has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
21:18:15 <ais523> the difference would be, if someone decided to send a message to a nonexistent address inside a /64 which did exist, where would the packet be bounced?
21:18:45 <pikhq> fizzie: Near as I can tell, that setup is overly complicated *and* really stupid.
21:18:46 <fizzie> ais523: For the bridging setup, the ISP's side would push a neighbor-discovery packet over the link, and when that failed to return any results, discard the packet.
21:19:10 <elliott> hmm, so could you have lots of static IPs as a home user?
21:19:12 <ais523> hmm, so it has to hold onto the packet while it determines whether the address exists or not?
21:19:17 <elliott> as static as your router's connection
21:19:29 <elliott> although i guess ipv6 is all static, all the time
21:19:31 <pikhq> It'd actually be pretty easy to do right. The router gets a point-to-point link and subnet. And it *fucking routes*.
21:19:40 <fizzie> ais523: Yes, there's usually a queue.
21:19:51 <ais523> that's... a little ridiculous
21:20:06 <fizzie> elliott: The /64 prefix might well be dynamic, if they want.
21:20:16 <pikhq> fizzie: BTW, in this setup you don't have a router.
21:20:26 <pikhq> fizzie: Your "router" doesn't route anything at all.
21:20:29 <fizzie> ais523: It's just what would happen if it were a IPv4 network, with the neighbor-discovery message replaced by an ARP packet.
21:20:33 <ais523> I take it the ISPs don't need to know about all the endpoints inside other ASes; just which prefixes they govern and which cables to send the relevant data down
21:20:36 <fizzie> pikhq: Yes, but those people keep calling it a "router".
21:20:41 <pikhq> fizzie: It's an Ethernet switch that happens to have EoPPPoE.
21:20:55 <ais523> I suppose I think that routing should work the same way at small scales as at large scales, really
21:20:58 <pikhq> ais523: Whole point of CIDR.
21:21:11 <ais523> so why can't you CIDR into people's houses too?
21:21:18 <pikhq> ais523: You can and should.
21:21:34 <ais523> and yet the methods of doing things explained above apparently don't
21:21:35 <Ilari> To terminate link that carries anything larger than PtP link, you need a router.
21:21:47 <pikhq> fizzie: Your ISP is run by morons. Morons who use Ethernet over PPP over Ethernet.
21:22:00 <fizzie> ais523: I'm not defending the setup, I'm just saying that often it's done so that the ISP's side of the link is part of the same Ethernet segment as the customer's computers.
21:22:14 <pikhq> fizzie: This is literally the first time I've heard of anyone doing that.
21:22:17 <fizzie> pikhq: There's no PPP involved. It's Ethernet-over-ADSL.
21:22:27 <elliott> ADSL-over-Ethernet, paycheck please
21:22:30 <quintopia> elliott: where does mbzrxpgjys come from anyway?
21:22:32 <ais523> so, conclusion: there is an entirely sane way to set up IPv6 in the home, and fizzie's ISP doesn't use it?
21:22:43 <ais523> quintopia: it was a fake result in Google
21:22:51 <ais523> used to catch out people who were copying their search results
21:22:52 <quintopia> i only saw the first one as one of those
21:23:02 <fizzie> ais523: It's not *extremely* insane to do it this way; it's the same way they have configured their IPv4 networks, after all.
21:23:06 <ais523> there was more than one
21:23:08 <elliott> internet says mbzrxpgjys too
21:23:15 <ais523> fizzie: it seems a little insane to do that for IPv4 too :)
21:23:18 <pikhq> fizzie: That's... Really really really stupid.
21:23:39 <pikhq> fizzie: Is your ISP a fan of Rube Goldberg?
21:24:04 <ais523> pikhq: do you have IPv6? and if so, how does your ISP do it?
21:24:12 <fizzie> pikhq: *All* ISPs I've seen have either used ADSL-in-bridging-mode, or PPPoE.
21:24:41 <ais523> <Testiclese> There are some languages that are used at my company, some that might be used, and those that nobody would ever consider, for various reasons. Erlang, LISP, Simula, Oberon, Smalltalk, Brainfuck, ABAP and D are all in that "ignore" camp, and I can't change that, no matter how cool and awesome they are.
21:24:49 <ais523> that's an interesting list
21:25:25 <ais523> fizzie: in that case, I suppose the question is: why don't ISPs do it the sane way?
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21:26:48 <fizzie> ais523: Well, for starters if you do it the bridging way, you don't have to assign a single network to one home. If you do it the routing way (point-to-point link to the consumer router, and then a particular network routed over it) you do.
21:26:49 <pikhq_> fizzie: I have never heard of your crazy "have the end user's router on the OTHER SIDE of the POP" bullshit.
21:26:55 <pikhq_> ais523: I've got a tunnel.
21:26:57 <pikhq_> ais523: /64 to myself; could be switched to a /48 if I bothered.
21:27:03 <ais523> fizzie: so multiple homes could share the same /64?
21:27:22 <pikhq_> fizzie: That's braindead.
21:27:22 <fizzie> pikhq: "DSL implementations may create bridged or routed networks. In a bridged configuration, the group of subscriber computers effectively connect into a single subnet." (Wikipedia.)
21:27:33 <ais523> especially if you decided to change your MAC address to clash with your neighbours'
21:27:46 <elliott> <ais523> <Testiclese> There are some languages that are used at my company, some that might be used, and those that nobody would ever consider, for various reasons. Erlang, LISP, Simula, Oberon, Smalltalk, Brainfuck, ABAP and D are all in that "ignore" camp, and I can't change that, no matter how cool and awesome they are.
21:27:52 <elliott> what was the point of quoting that, apart from to rile me up
21:27:55 <pikhq_> ais523: I'd change my MAC address to clash with the ISP's router.
21:28:08 <ais523> elliott: it was the weird assortment of languages in the list
21:28:15 <ais523> I mean, Simula is really old, for instance
21:28:20 <ais523> and there's exactly one esolang there
21:28:30 <ais523> they might have thought of that, though
21:28:36 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
21:29:03 <ais523> hmm, wasn't there a case a while ago when it was discovered that all routers by a particular manufacturer had the same MAC address by default, or something silly like that?
21:29:33 <elliott> 06:30:12 <ais523> although one of the headlines in the paper a couple of days ago was so a pun so bad it physically hurt
21:29:39 <pikhq_> fizzie: Your ISP is selling a defective product.
21:29:44 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
21:29:56 <ais523> elliott: I said later on
21:30:04 <Ilari> AFAIK, sharing a /64 doesn't work all too well...
21:30:04 <ais523> and Vorpal completely misunderstood it
21:30:04 <pikhq> Granted, it's the same one they've been selling for years, but that's beside the point.
21:30:08 <fizzie> pikhq_: It's a "standard" configuration; every DSL modem I've ever seen has supported the bridged mode.
21:30:11 <elliott> 06:34:08 <ais523> oerjan: it was an article about a Cher impersonator
21:30:11 <elliott> 06:34:13 <ais523> called "Cher and Cher-alike"
21:30:25 * ais523 /clears to stop the hurt
21:30:25 <pikhq> fizzie: The bridged mode is completely and utterly retarded for IPv6.
21:30:26 <elliott> ais523: no, he seems to have ignored it
21:30:37 <elliott> heh, is "stop the hurt" valid? if not, it should be
21:30:53 <elliott> * ais523 /clears to stop the hurt
21:31:01 <ais523> what do you mean by "valid"
21:31:32 <ais523> that makes even less sense
21:31:33 <fizzie> pikhq: It's a dual-stacked setup, I don't see a reasonable way to keep doing the "normal" bridged setup for IPv4 while doing something else for IPv6, without explicit IPv6 routing support on the customer's DSL modem, which none of them probably do.
21:31:34 <olsner> hmm, golfing wasn't as easy as I'd thought
21:31:35 <elliott> 06:36:11 <oerjan> ais523: well cher-alike = share-alike is what i thought, which is afaik license terminology
21:31:41 <elliott> oerjan misinterpreted it this time!
21:31:48 <elliott> ais523: nope, vorpal totally ignored it
21:32:02 <ais523> wait, how does oerjan manage a vorpal-like misunderstanding of a pun?
21:32:11 <elliott> ais523: by not being a native English speaker
21:32:16 <elliott> he didn't know of "share and share alike"
21:32:19 <pikhq> fizzie: How's about they actually implement it correctly, rather than having the ISP run the end user's router!
21:32:22 <ais523> olsner: stderr's reported, but ignored for purposes of determining if a submission is correct or not
21:32:26 <elliott> 06:38:48 <ais523> "sidewalk" is a US term, the UK equivalent is "pavement"
21:32:26 <elliott> 06:38:58 <ais523> annoyingly, "pavement" has a US meaning too, making it rather ambiguous
21:32:31 <elliott> heh, how appropriate to read this log today
21:32:39 <pikhq> fizzie: IPv6 point-to-point link. End user has a router on one end.
21:32:48 <pikhq> This ISN'T THAT FREAKING HARD!
21:33:06 <pikhq> The only problem is that no consumer routers support IPv6 right now.
21:33:06 <ais523> ouch, have I started a flame war by proxy?
21:33:13 <fizzie> And how is the point-to-point link autoconfigured?
21:33:18 <elliott> no, pikhq is just a 24/7 zealot :P
21:33:24 <ais523> pikhq: actually, one does (the one Apple makes, I forget the name)
21:33:41 <elliott> (yes, apple release routers called AirPort)
21:33:48 <elliott> ais523: is it bad if I want to become a wikipedia administrator just to delete the main page?
21:33:59 <ais523> elliott: but 24/7 is assigned to ARIN and the UK ministry of defense
21:34:17 <ais523> besides, you can't delete the main page any more
21:34:35 <ais523> so there wouldn't be any point
21:34:56 <elliott> ais523: can you delete all the templates it's made up of?
21:35:01 <fizzie> pikhq: Anyhow, I think for most IPv4 broadband in Finland you typically get five public IPv4 addresses directly via DHCP from the ISP. I'm not sure how that sort of thing would work in a routing setup. (How do people elsewhere even do "multiple computers behind one customer's link"? Private-IP NAT only?)
21:35:03 <pikhq> fizzie: Autoconfiguration? Dynamic addresses are the devil!
21:35:15 <ais523> as Tim Starling said the last time someone tricked an admin into deleting the main page by saying it was impossible, if you can get to the deletion confirm form at all, it's possible
21:35:24 <ais523> and yes, I suppose you could do that
21:35:26 <pikhq> fizzie: 1 IP here.
21:35:28 <elliott> this machine is 196.168.1.9
21:35:31 <fizzie> pikhq: Oh, so you suggest a return to the time where people entered IP network prefixes by hand into their workstations?
21:35:40 <ais523> ooh, is that two wallops in a week?
21:35:45 <pikhq> fizzie: Only the router.
21:35:48 <elliott> ais523: hmm, could you just unprotect the main page and all templates?
21:35:55 <elliott> and wait for some newbie to try and edit it for the first time?
21:36:03 <pikhq> fizzie: Everything else just autoconfigures the normal way.
21:36:05 <ais523> elliott: that is /possible/, but there are steps in place to make it very timeconsuming
21:36:08 <elliott> (I doubt regular mischief-makers think to see if the main page has been unprotected.)
21:36:12 <pikhq> With the *end user's router* supporting it.
21:36:15 <elliott> ais523: yeah, that cascade protect stuff... how does it work?
21:36:20 <ais523> and also noticeable, so that you'd likely be stopped before you could
21:36:24 <fizzie> pikhq: None of the routers do support that sort of thing, you know.
21:36:26 <ais523> elliott: one page can be used to place a protection lock on another
21:36:31 <ais523> [wallops] Hi all. We've had some technical issues with our webchat setup for the last couple of hours resulting in people being unable to connect and/or timing out. Everything should be resolved now. Sorry for the downtime!
21:36:59 <pikhq> fizzie: You mean none of your "routers" do DHCP?
21:37:05 <ais523> so you need to unprotect and/or edit the Main Page itself, 10 pages designed just for the purpose of locking it down, and various other secret ones
21:37:16 <fizzie> pikhq: I mean for IPv6 deployment.
21:37:32 <elliott> ais523: haha, what are those 10 pages? ... what are the secret ones?
21:37:36 <pikhq> Or stateless autoconfiguration.
21:37:37 <elliott> it's ok, if you whisper, google won't hear
21:37:43 <Ilari> If the prefix is static, then autoconfigured address (unless you have privacy extensions enabled) will be static too.
21:37:52 <fizzie> pikhq: The whole "configure a route for your ISP, also a prefix, then do radvd-style router advertisement for the inner network"; that's not something they do.
21:37:54 <ais523> meh, I can't remember, although you could find out if you really wanted to
21:38:27 <pikhq> fizzie: Actually, the whole "do anything with IPv6" isn't really something they do right now.
21:38:43 <fizzie> They do the bridging of IPv6 protocol Ethernet frames just fine.
21:39:05 <elliott> ais523: but i thought they were seekrit
21:39:12 <pikhq> Yes, that's because that's not routing. Or even knowledge of IP.
21:39:23 <ais523> they were originally just an ad-hoc way of preventing the main page being unprotected accidentally when someone deleted it
21:39:26 <ais523> which tended to happen quite al ot
21:39:47 <ais523> at least, the first two (or three) times it was deleted, either maliciously or accidentally, people forgot to reprotect it after undeleting it
21:39:47 <pikhq> They'd work just as fine with freaking Netware or SMB over Ethernet.
21:39:50 <fizzie> Yes, which also means it works since what, three-five years ago.
21:41:53 <pikhq> Still stupid and involves your ISP running a router per customer for no good reason.
21:42:17 <fizzie> A single router can, you know, have multiple routes in it.
21:42:39 <pikhq> (okay, so they probably have just a single router acting as multiple gateway devices, but still, that's a lot of *completely pointless* administrative overhead.)
21:42:45 <ais523> IIRC there's a company that rents DVD players
21:43:02 <ais523> not the DVDs themselves; rather, they have links over the Internet from the DVD player you rented to your computer screen
21:43:10 <fizzie> Oh, so there's no "administrative overhead" (what does that even mean?) for setting up those point-to-point links and routes of customer networks over them?
21:43:13 <ais523> and you can ask them to put various DVDs they own in the player you're renting
21:43:45 <ais523> that reminds me rather of that router situation you're talking about
21:44:20 <fizzie> What they're doing for IPv6 isn't any different than what they already were doing for IPv4, except instead of routing a few discontiguous IPv4 addresses into each interface-representing-a-link-to-a-customer, they route a static /64 into it.
21:44:56 <Ilari> Or one block larger than /64...
21:45:29 <pikhq> Why not just have a fucking routing table? Like they already have to?
21:46:07 <fizzie> I really am not getting your objections here. They need to have a routing table entry for each of the customer prefixes even if there is a IPv6-capable router on the customer's side.
21:46:07 <pikhq> I'd imagine it's a heck of a lot easier to just say "route add FOO gateway BAR" than to spawn a whole network.
21:46:32 <fizzie> It's "route add FOO dev BAR" instead.
21:47:29 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:47:36 <fizzie> For the alternative setup, you'd have a point-to-point link over device BAR (maybe with link-local addresses), and then a fixed prefix routed with that as the gateway. But that's assuming IPv6 capable routers and people actually having to configure those.
21:49:04 <pikhq> Anyways, all that only works if your end users are only ever going to have a single network...
21:49:16 <pikhq> Last I checked, a /48 was still the recommended end-user allocation.
21:49:26 <fizzie> Some recommend /56 pretty seriously.
21:49:35 <fizzie> Wasn't that the new APNIC policy? Or someone's, anyway.
21:49:44 <pikhq> Specifically so that end users can have more than one network.
21:50:04 <fizzie> FWIW, at least if you're a commercial consumer and want multiple, routable networks, you can just call the support desk, agree on a gateway address, and have them add a routing table entry for a /56 using that as a gateway.
21:50:31 <fizzie> Their whole IPv6-to-home is, I gather, a sort of a trial thing that needs to, you know, work without the users having to worry about it.
21:50:47 <fizzie> (And using the existing DSL network/hardware/whatever.)
21:51:30 <pikhq> fizzie: Okay, I think my main actual objection with your ISP's practices are this: it keeps normal users essentially running with some "special", dumbed down Internet access, rather than actually using it as intended.
21:51:53 <ais523> fizzie: if it works with existing routers, that's actually pretty interesting
21:52:10 <ais523> would that work with existing wireless routers too? or just the wired versions with a fixed number of PCs?
21:52:31 <fizzie> ais523: "Yes" if they bridge the wireless network into the same link-level segment.
21:52:51 <pikhq> Granted, they get actual public IP addresses now, but it's still quite limiting in what can be done.
21:52:53 <ais523> what I meant was, can typical wireless routers be configured to do that?
21:53:02 <fizzie> pikhq: I do have to admit I'm not happy at the hack I needed to do to fit together my NAT-based multiple-subnets-IPv4 and their not-so-routable /64.
21:53:14 <elliott> <pikhq> fizzie: Okay, I think my main actual objection with your ISP's practices are this: it keeps normal users essentially running with some "special", dumbed down Internet access, rather than actually using it as intended.
21:53:18 <elliott> What does that even *mean*.
21:53:32 <fizzie> ais523: At least those that do the whole DSL and WLAN things in the same box I think usually can.
21:53:37 <fizzie> Sowwy, away a few minutes now.
21:54:09 <pikhq> elliott: God dammit I want to run a router, set it up how I want, and have my own freaking network.
21:54:24 <elliott> I don't see how it's "dumbed down" for "normal users".
21:54:31 <elliott> Since they just use the default router config.
21:54:55 <pikhq> elliott: Basically all they can do with that is whatever network can be set up with Ethernet switches.
21:55:49 <pikhq> Let's say you want to have a wireless link between two Ethernet segments. Sorry, no can do, because you can't freaking bridge Ethernet over Wifi!
21:57:49 <fizzie> Why couldn't you? (I mean, obviously it's a terrible idea, but why wouldn't it "work" to some degree?)
21:57:52 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, surely you can just by doing it from scratch on a pin-by-pin basis?
21:58:26 <copumpkin> why aren't there SMT solvers that implement what I want
21:59:13 <fizzie> I admit J. Random Access-Point probably wouldn't support it; mine does "bridge ethernet and Wifi", and different sort of "repeater" setups, but not exactly "the other way around" bridging.
21:59:39 <pikhq> fizzie: Can't have a Wifi host using multiple MAC addresses at all.
21:59:39 <ais523> <toefraz> DON'T APNIC!
21:59:44 <ais523> that was actually pretty good...
22:00:06 <fizzie> pikhq: Uh, my access point currently bridges the Ethernet and Wifi networks together.
22:00:24 <pikhq> fizzie: Yes, an access point can.
22:00:56 <pikhq> fizzie: The access point would be horribly confused if you then decided to bridge an Ethernet segment to the other one *over* the Wifi.
22:01:27 <fizzie> Yes, well, I don't see why it couldn't then also cooperate with a device to do the same for another Ethernet segments. They already do repeating-style cooperation.
22:01:42 <ais523> pikhq: wouldn't ISPs be confused anyway if their customers started peering with each other?
22:02:15 <pikhq> A Wifi MAC address is more of a radio identifier than a network device identifier.
22:02:22 <ais523> (certainly, they shouldn't trust customers advertising routes outside their own network...)
22:03:23 <pikhq> Of course, with some finangling you could do Ethernet over IP to get it to work, but that's beside the point...
22:03:51 <fizzie> pikhq: Actually, the access point I have actually explicitly supports a "wireless bridge" mode.
22:03:57 <ais523> pikhq: why would you expect it to work if ISP customers started peering with each other?
22:04:12 <fizzie> You have to give it the MAC of another same-manufacturer access point in the same mode; then it does a point-to-point wireless link.
22:04:20 <pikhq> ais523: I doubt it would, as an ISP would *probably* be doing route filtering.
22:04:30 <pikhq> ais523: If they used a routing protocol at all.
22:04:36 <ais523> well, they should, at least
22:04:46 <ais523> trusting advertised routes of your own customers has got even large ASes into trouble before now
22:04:56 <pikhq> fizzie: Yeah, it's doing a proprietary Ethernet-over-Wifi tunnel...
22:05:03 <ais523> in the case of ASes, there are global tables listing the routes they're supposed to advertise
22:05:17 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:05:20 <ais523> at the ISP level, I assume you should only trust advertised routes from your customers that you told them to advertise
22:05:25 <pikhq> ais523: I'm not even talking about peering, though.
22:05:45 <ais523> that's what it would effectively be, if you decided to bridge your network to another customer's
22:05:58 <ais523> and also insane, because since when did home customers peer?
22:06:00 <pikhq> ais523: You don't seem to understand how Ethernet works at all.
22:06:16 <pikhq> ais523: Or, indeed, what I'm talking about at all.
22:06:24 <ais523> pikhq: I do; on the other hand, I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about
22:06:31 <fizzie> pikhq: Despite your objections on grounds of conceptual purity, I wouldn't be all that surprised if the norm for "consumer internet" would in fact become something like "we assign (maybe even dynamically) a /64 for each consumer, and if they need some sort of more complicated network setup, with multiple routable subnets, they're welcome to talk to our business connectivity side".
22:06:50 <pikhq> ais523: Bridging two Ethernet segments together gets you a *single* network.
22:07:08 <ais523> pikhq: oh, I thought you were routing them together
22:07:10 <pikhq> ais523: It is in fact the same thing as just running a cable between two switches.
22:07:13 <ais523> so it's not peering, just a mess
22:07:29 <ais523> I mean, I don't see why you'd expect that to work with any other setup either
22:07:30 <pikhq> ais523: I'm talking about using a Wifi link instead of a physical cable for this.
22:07:46 <ais523> I'd expect it to be insane even with a physical cable
22:08:04 <ais523> at least in IPv4, because you'd expect clashes in 10/8 or 192.168/16 with a typical consumer setup
22:08:18 <pikhq> ais523: I'm not *talking about linking it to someone else's network*.
22:08:29 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:08:31 <ais523> pikhq: well, what are you linking it to, then?
22:08:44 <pikhq> ais523: Let's say you have 5 computers in a room on the other side of the house from your router.
22:09:06 <pikhq> ais523: You want to hook those up.
22:09:09 <ais523> oh, so you're putting a wireless link inside your normal home network
22:09:21 <pikhq> ais523: You'd love to use Wifi, but you can't, because you can't bridge two Ethernet segments via Wifi.
22:09:22 <ais523> so why does it matter that it's wireless?
22:10:20 <pikhq> Now, if you had a proper router, you *could* set that up as a seperate network, get routes set up, and voila.
22:10:43 <ais523> and in fizzie's situation, you'd need some sort of double bridge to do the same thing
22:10:57 <ais523> which doesn't seem that much less plausible
22:11:51 <pikhq> Just an example of when you'd want your connection from ISP to home to go through something smarter than a dumb Ethernet switch.
22:12:18 <pikhq> fizzie: Can that setup even support a per-network firewall?
22:12:45 <pikhq> I wouldn't *think* so, but you never know.
22:12:54 <ais523> pikhq: I don't see why you couldn't get a firewall to pretend to be a bridge; that's more or less what it would be doing at a per-computer level
22:12:59 <fizzie> pikhq: Sure, they're still separate devices. It's not exactly on the elegant side, though, especially if you'd want a hierarchy there.
22:14:23 <fizzie> And like I said, I wouldn't be all that surprised if "you get a single /64 and stop whining" would become the norm for consumer setups.
22:14:53 <pikhq> Dammit, going to have to get business service anyways.
22:15:14 <fizzie> Though I might be wrong and something like the /56 *could* become the default "end-user" network size even for "end users" that are homes.
22:15:31 <ais523> a /64 is surely enough for a home, especially if it's done pikhq-style rather than fizzie-style
22:15:33 <pikhq> Hmm. Actually, probably would anyways, if I want to have such simple niceties as "a static IP" and "reverse DNS" and such.
22:15:40 <ais523> you're going to get a routable static public IP per computer
22:15:52 <fizzie> ais523: Even done "pikhq-style", you can't really route "parts" of a /64.
22:15:54 <ais523> unless they decide to make the first 64 bits dynamic just to persuade you to upgrade
22:15:55 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
22:16:09 <ais523> fizzie: well, you can still send messages to them from outside
22:16:22 <fizzie> ais523: How is that relevant?
22:16:34 <pikhq> fizzie: Bit hackish, but you certainly *could* subnet a /64.
22:16:39 <ais523> mostly because it's what you can't easily do with current IPv4
22:16:46 <ais523> I wasn't referring to subnetting at all, just having more than one computer there
22:16:53 <fizzie> ais523: Yes, but you get that even if it's done "fizzie-style".
22:17:31 <fizzie> pikhq: At least the stateless autoconfig will break for that. And I assume some operating systems might also barf on that.
22:17:49 <fizzie> But I guess it's "more possible" than subnetting a /64 implemented "fizzie-style".
22:18:17 <fizzie> Though do note that I've done pretty much exactly that.
22:18:54 <fizzie> The only thing that requires a separate "hack" is that the customer-side router doing the routing needs to be configured to reply to neighbor discovery packets for any hosts that are inside the networks it wishes to route further.
22:19:10 <fizzie> Then it will receive all packets directed to those networks, and can route them over to wherever you want.
22:20:27 <fizzie> If you forego address autoconfig, something like Linux can already do that; it's just "ip -6 neigh add proxy [address] dev [external-interface]" + a 1 into a proxy_ndp config flag. Then it'll reply to neighbor-discovery for [address] on [external-interface] with its own link-level address.
22:21:23 <fizzie> APNIC current policy seems to be: "The exact size of the assignment is a local decision for the LIR or ISP to make, using a minimum value of a /64 (when only one subnet is anticipated for the end site) up to the normal maximum of /48, except in cases of extra large end sites where a larger assignment can be justified."
22:21:31 <fizzie> That certainly doesn't constrain anything.
22:22:11 <fizzie> Though I wouldn't expect a largeish ISP with, say, 16 million consumers, to dedicate a /24 so that they can assign a separate /48 to each of those.
22:22:43 <Phantom_Hoover> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Fully_functional_membrane.jpg
22:22:55 <ais523> /56 seems the right size for a typical customer, or maybe /64 for residential customers who aren't very technical and don't want to pay extra
22:23:16 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I was wondering why it was a jpeg from the name
22:23:24 <ais523> also, that's useful, why not keep it until a better-quality image comes along?
22:23:46 <ais523> and please, link to the Image: page not the image itself, it's a pain to go the other way
22:24:17 <fizzie> ais523: The problem with that sort of logic is that since 99.8% of consumers "aren't very technical and don't want to pay extra", it very easily happens that the remaining 0.2% aren't seen as worth the hassle of actually providing different types of service.
22:24:27 <ais523> I don't see how that makes it any less useful
22:24:32 <fizzie> (Numbers generated with the Stetson-Harrison method.)
22:25:10 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, I'd rewrite it with Graphviz instead.
22:25:10 <ais523> fizzie: you'd be surprised; I heard of an ISP who are advertising peering agreements with most of the major online gaming companies, so they can claim shorter ping times for online games
22:25:33 <fizzie> ais523: "Gamers" are a very much larger market segment than "techies".
22:25:53 <ais523> fizzie: they're the sort of people who'd care about their subnet size for no reason at all, though
22:26:08 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose it's just because my handwriting is legendarily awful.
22:26:19 <fizzie> ais523: What, gamers? Why on earth would they care about that?
22:26:33 <ais523> the same reason they care about a whole bunch of other things that are actually irrelevant
22:26:43 <ais523> you should see what they do to a typical Windows installation some time
22:27:26 <fizzie> I'm not sure how you'd manage to establish the link between subnet size (some other "sizes", certainly) and gaming prowess in their minds, except maybe by some very clever marketing.
22:28:13 <fizzie> But still: speed is one thing, complicated local network topologies are quite another.
22:28:21 <fizzie> You could sell them faster connections, though.
22:28:43 <ais523> you'd say that they couldn't host LAN parties and still remain online easily without it
22:28:54 <fizzie> H-mhm, that might actually work.
22:29:03 <fizzie> For some values of "work".
22:29:21 <ais523> I'm not actually sure how true my statement is; although it's definitely misleading
22:29:22 <fizzie> I mean, a LAN party is not exactly something you'd need a separate network for.
22:29:27 <ais523> and also something that people generally don't care about
22:31:29 <fizzie> Speaking of faster connections, a local... I don't know what they are nowadays, telco/cable-TV-operator/ISP/mobile-operator (it's the Age of the Convergence) just sent our "apartment building governance construct" (I don't know the corresponding legal entities abroad) a letter that they'd like to dig a trench and put some fibre to our basement.
22:31:53 <fizzie> They didn't say anything about actually using that for anything; just that they'd pay for the digging (unless there's an existing pipe they could use), and it wouldn't really inconvenience us.
22:32:01 <fizzie> They'd even replant the grass if they had to disturb it.
22:32:38 <fizzie> The general suspicion is that they're going to follow it with "say, now that we have this nice cable, how about you buy a building-wide Internet system from us too with not much extra cost?"
22:33:12 <fizzie> We decided to let them install their cable anyway; it's not like it'd be in anyone else's way.
22:33:44 <ais523> fizzie: my guess as to the motive, is so that if anyone in the apartment building wanted to buy internet from them, they could offer higher speeds
22:34:11 <ais523> much the same thing happens with Virgin Media in the UK; they put high-speed links in random places so they can quote higher speeds to people around there if they're considering getting broadband
22:34:55 <fizzie> From what I have heard, they generally first offer some sort of "baseline service" to the apartment building "company" -- so that the money-to-cover-costs-of-the-building money pays for the installation of hardware at our end, and everyone gets a base-level network service for "free".
22:35:21 <fizzie> Once that's in place, they start to offer more expensive, faster connections to people who want that.
22:36:27 <fizzie> That's the sort of thing that leads to huge arguments between the apartment-owners in the yearly meetings, since there's always a contigent of people who couldn't care less about internet, but *definitely* care about not paying a dime for *other* people's net.
22:37:29 <fizzie> I'm not sure if they do offer a financing setup that only involves people-who-buy-network-from-them paying. At least that would probably need a threshold-exceeding group of people agreeing to buy the connections, first.
22:38:26 <olsner> ... either way, you'll end up paying more than you should for internet that's slower than it should be
22:38:56 <fizzie> It wouldn't even be especially fast, since they're not going to start actually doing new building-internal cabling -- this thing was built in 1984, they didn't de-facto Ethernet everything back then -- so everything's going to have to go via the old landline telephone cabling anyway.
22:39:02 <fizzie> (Or power lines, or some other screwball thing.)
22:39:25 <fizzie> But they do offer some sort of VDSL that's based on the fact that it's a far shorter piece of telephone cable.
22:40:34 <fizzie> I think 1M/1M is their "base rate" for the VSDL2 service, and the extra-price options are 10M/10M and 100M/10M (down/up).
22:42:11 <fizzie> The company in question falls quite definitely on the "clueless" side of the spectrum.
22:42:32 <fizzie> Their ads say the service comes with "5 URL addresses, with 25 MB of space per address".
22:43:11 <fizzie> I guess that is to be read such that you can have up to five separate files, each up to 25 MB large.
22:45:45 <ais523> fizzie: there's a shop on my way to University that advertises, using the old posters-in-windows techniques, making customized T-shirts, leaflets, and web pages for your business
22:45:52 <ais523> note: not websites; just a page on their own site
22:46:03 <ais523> this confused me rather
22:46:40 -!- impomatic has joined.
22:46:52 <fizzie> ais523: A local TV program (admittedly in Internet times this was pretty early) said in the ending credits "email: http://www.yle.fi/something"
22:47:13 <fizzie> There was a feedback form there, I think.
22:47:15 <ais523> that's worse than sites advertising @hotmail email addresses
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22:51:14 <Ilari> Apparently Sonera FAQs also mention those mystical 6-digit IPv6 addresses...
22:52:01 <fizzie> I didn't know it was quite *that* bad.
22:52:59 <Ilari> Ah, apparently they have removed that bit now...
22:54:01 <impomatic> I'm thinking about reimplementing CRB in C - http://www.retroprogramming.com/2011/02/celebrating-30-years-of-color-robot.html
22:54:02 <fizzie> If this building *did* end up getting the "free as part of the generic costs" deal, then I could realize my dream and finally set up a multihomed system. :p
22:54:24 <fizzie> Of course since they wouldn't peer me any routing tables or anything, I'd have to just basically randomly load-balance the connections.)
22:54:25 <impomatic> At the moment the only simulator in proprietary :-(
22:56:15 <fizzie> Ilari: Sonera does appear to have gotten a IPv6 /20 delegation from RIPE back in 2004; there's a newspost about it. They sure have made good use of those 324518553658426726783156020576256 addresses, given that they don't provide any sort of IPv6 service, as far as I know.
22:59:14 <fizzie> Ilari: Oh, and there's a set of TeliaSonera "IPv6 Deployment Plans" slides from RIPE-49 (September 2004) that say "We want to have support for IPv6 in all of our IP Networks both Mobile and Fixed within two years". :p
22:59:24 <fizzie> (It also has pretty broken engrish here and there.)
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23:35:18 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Of course since they wouldn't peer me any routing tables or anything, I'd have to just basically randomly load-balance the connections.) <-- use sctp!
23:36:18 <pikhq> Oh, right, SCTP actually has multihoming work without any effort.
23:37:49 <fizzie> For any sort of "sensible" multihoming it'd still need some clue about prefixes to not go "the long way around" for nearby-via-one-connection nets.
23:40:55 <fizzie> There's also HIP, which has been much researched by the folks in the telecommunications lab two floors down from my working place.
23:40:59 <fizzie> I gather it's quite horrible.
23:41:27 <fizzie> And doesn't exist, and the specs are really vague, and it's more some sort of an overcomplicated metaprotocol.
23:41:34 <fizzie> But it does some multihoming-related things.
23:41:51 <fizzie> (That was based on a telecom-related friend's opinion; haven't inspected it myself.)
23:42:54 <pikhq> SCTP's multihoming involves hosts informing the other end of the connection about the IP addresses that it can be reached at, and determining which specific path to use...
23:43:41 <pikhq> So in theory it should select the fastest path and use that.
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23:50:16 <fizzie> I suppose some sort of per-connection measurement thing like that should work.
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23:50:57 <pikhq> It'd at least avoid doing anything *too* stupid.
23:52:25 <fizzie> So how many services can you reach by sctp today?-)
23:53:01 <pikhq> Though because SCTP lets you embed it into UDP, it's at least possible to use on any OS.
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23:53:37 <pikhq> Though it only works natively on most of the Unices.
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