00:00:30 <elliott> hm one issue with treating integers and other atomic values in a concatenative language as x === [x] is that operations on them don't seem to make sense...
00:00:40 <elliott> as in, you can't look inside a quotation, so how can + look inside its arguments?
00:01:21 <Ilari> SHA-512/224: 8C3D37C819544DA2 73E1996689DCD4D6 1DFAB7AE32FF9C82 679DD514582F9FCF 0F6D2B697BD44DA8 77E36F7304C48942 3F9D85A86A1D36C8 1112E6AD91D692A1 SHA-512/256: 22312194FC2BF72C 9F555FA3C84C64C2 2393B86B6F53B151 963877195940EABD 96283EE2A88EFFE3 BE5E1E2553863992 2B0199FC2C85B8AA 0EB72DDC81C52CA2
00:02:37 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
00:05:23 -!- cheater- has joined.
00:05:30 <Ilari> A good bit too much carbon dioxide?
00:07:08 <oerjan> Ilari: irregular webcomic had an annotation the other day mentioning how pre-space probe scientists thought venus might have fizzy oceans
00:07:59 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:09:07 <elliott> hmm and is Joy really homoiconic?
00:09:15 <elliott> in [foo], i don't know if there's an object representing foo, i.e. does joy have symbols?
00:10:49 <elliott> "I can understand the benefit of pulling things like Ioke. I can't understand
00:10:49 <elliott> the benefit of pulling Factor. Unfortunately, you can't write taste into the
00:12:34 <Sgeo> elliott, you're saying that that person likes Factor but dislikes Ioke?/
00:19:12 <elliott> Oh wow, Seph is going to have HOTSWAPPING
00:19:18 <elliott> Maybe Sgeo will be trapped forever
00:23:01 <elliott> <oerjan> Ilari: irregular webcomic had an annotation the other day mentioning how pre-space probe scientists thought venus might have fizzy oceans
00:23:04 <elliott> that's what lead me to the wp article
00:23:29 <elliott> oerjan: also types, not kinds of constructors, presumably
00:27:21 <elliott> ok AH must be an esolanger. it is the only possible explanation.
00:30:25 <elliott> Sgeo: http://www.mspaintadventures.com/storyfiles/hs2/02026.gif
00:30:38 -!- invariable has changed nick to variable.
00:32:33 <oerjan> elliott: not yet but i suddenly thought maybe it isn't necessary to have junk _between_ all the items, just on top and sometimes inside
00:32:44 <oerjan> which should simplify things
00:32:49 <elliott> oerjan: did devoting just the top stack element to it not work out?
00:33:09 <oerjan> elliott: that works for just removing !
00:33:27 <elliott> oerjan: maybe you could transform every stack element into like ((junk)(real stuff))
00:33:45 <elliott> just to make me feel clever
00:33:51 <oerjan> however when you have no ~ it is obvious that you cannot get rid of junk between the elements, so i thought having junk between every element
00:34:12 <oerjan> elliott: i've already settled on (real stuff(junk)*), more or less
00:34:12 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:34:26 -!- elliott has joined.
00:34:36 <elliott> oerjan: (does it really help)
00:34:58 <elliott> oerjan: hm but that seems inconvenient because it puts junk into your real stuff
00:35:00 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:35:41 <oerjan> when i realized i'm going to have to incorporate junks into the items anyway, i thought maybe i don't need to put any between them on the stack.
00:35:41 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:36:02 -!- elliott has joined.
00:37:03 <oerjan> elliott: ((junk)real stuff) might be nice, but there's no avoiding _some_ at the end
00:37:21 <elliott> oerjan: (real stuff(junk)!) with a ! translation? :P
00:37:35 <oerjan> elliott: * _is_ a ! translation for this purpose
00:37:52 <oerjan> the real stuff would already be putting junk on top, after all
00:38:07 <elliott> so underload without : is definitely not TC right? ...not even with a, which gives you the ability to create longer strings? >:D
00:38:31 <oerjan> elliott: yes. :()^ are absolutely essential, you cannot make a non-halting program without all of them
00:38:41 <elliott> WHATEVER YOU SAY, MR. "EXPERT"
00:38:52 <oerjan> : is the only command which grows the _combined_ size of program and stack
00:39:15 <oerjan> (technically you need to count a's at least double)
00:39:23 <elliott> <oerjan> BLAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
00:39:26 <elliott> <oerjan> SCIENCE LOGIC FACTS
00:39:27 <elliott> <oerjan> SCIENCE LOGIC FACTS
00:39:28 <elliott> <oerjan> SCIENCE LOGIC FACTS
00:39:29 <elliott> <oerjan> SCIENCE LOGIC FACTS
00:39:31 <oerjan> ^ is the only one which doesn't shrink the remaining program
00:39:42 <elliott> why don't you prove a*()^ tc with synchronicity instead :(
00:39:55 <oerjan> and ( is the only one which can usefully start a program
00:40:08 <elliott> huh yeah all underload programs start with ( don't they
00:40:10 <oerjan> elliott: ALL THIS IS EXPLAINED IN MY NEW ARTICLE SECTION
00:40:22 <elliott> we need a FUN FACT database
00:40:23 <oerjan> they must, or crash immediately
00:40:30 <elliott> programs that crash aren't programs
00:40:30 <oerjan> well except the empty program
00:40:50 <elliott> oerjan: btw the underload article is totally inaccessible now :D
00:41:08 <elliott> summary, command list, unlambda translation, HUGE SECTION OF THEORETICAL CONFUSINGNESS
00:41:24 <elliott> don't rearrange it, i like it.
00:41:50 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
00:42:58 <elliott> SORRY i won't hurt your feelings in the future
00:43:05 * elliott pats the mathematician on the head
00:43:10 <oerjan> so you think the examples should be earlier, maybe?
00:43:13 <elliott> it's ok, we won't involve the REAL WORLD.
00:43:17 <elliott> oerjan: hey i _just said_ i liked it :D
00:43:42 <elliott> i mean if i were going for boringness i'd put all the translation and minimisation and stuff on a separate page like bf minimalisation is. but seriously, i like it how it is.
00:43:58 <oerjan> may still happen if it keeps growing
00:44:19 <elliott> oh that's what catamorphism means
00:45:31 <oerjan> hm wait i can drop the junk on top too...
00:45:33 <Sgeo> Zenwalk live boots up SO SLOWLY
00:45:44 <oerjan> just incorporate it as well
00:45:46 -!- augur has joined.
00:46:58 <oerjan> but but ... with that change i can actually keep most of the instructions identical!
00:48:07 <oerjan> hah everything except ~ and ! in fact
00:48:28 <Sgeo> The Zenwalk people never heard of that rule whose name I can't remember
00:48:32 <oerjan> and ! becomes the a(*)** subroutine which i was using all over the place
00:48:52 <elliott> drop the junk on top in the underload
00:48:54 <oerjan> and now it's so simple i don't need to optimize the expression for ~ any more
00:49:20 -!- zzo38 has joined.
00:49:30 <zzo38> Is there any chess variant on Rubik's cube?
00:49:35 <oerjan> ok now the transformation becomes super-simple
00:50:04 <elliott> oerjan: thought that was too easy to be true.
00:50:18 <oerjan> the a(*)** subroutine _depends_ on there being junk on top :(
00:50:28 <oerjan> hm but if i _quine_ it...
00:50:51 <elliott> hey oerjan how does it feel devoting this much time to an imperative language. ok that's not fair, it's pure if you ignore S.
00:50:53 <elliott> ok so it's not exactly pure
00:51:06 <oerjan> UNDERLOAD IS THE PUREST OF THE PURE
00:51:18 <elliott> technically the stack paradigm isn't pure, but the concatenative way it is viewed by the cool people (program is function from stack to stack) is pure.
00:51:25 <elliott> and the typical programming style is very functional and pure.
00:53:00 <oerjan> ok plan now: implement the replacement for ! such that it incorporates the deleted element as junk at the end of the previous one, _plus_ itself
00:53:33 <oerjan> that way when the combined element is run, the inner ! will reiterate the process
00:53:42 <elliott> oerjan: it's so fun watching you monologue :D
00:53:48 <elliott> i bet half the channel is watching
00:54:04 <elliott> is that mathematician for "[embarrassment]"?
00:54:15 <zzo38> I watch, but maybe I watch late
00:54:36 <oerjan> elliott: i _was_ sort of assuming at least you wanted to watch
00:54:58 <elliott> keeps me entertained. sadly i'm not even joking.
00:55:36 <elliott> [[I'm pretty sure there is a mathematical proof somewhere that a language can't both be turing-complete and reversible. I might be wrong though. --TehZ 19:29, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
00:55:36 <elliott> Most definitely wrong. Maybe you are thinking about how a program in a reversible language with finite memory has to halt or return to its original configuration? --Ørjan 09:30, 15 January 2011 (UTC)]]
00:55:40 <elliott> er isn't that true of all languages with finite memory
00:56:08 <oerjan> we want the equation ! = a(!)**
00:56:48 <Sgeo> There exists... a graphical installer for Gentoo?
00:56:55 <Sgeo> <elliott> Sgeo finally enters 2006
00:57:23 <oerjan> elliott: no, it could get in a loop not including the original configuration
00:57:45 <elliott> I(SII(SII)) -> SII(SII) -> ... -> SII(SII)
00:58:10 <zzo38> Do you use 1/72.27 points in one inch or 1/72 points in one inch?
00:58:18 <oerjan> elliott: incidentally if you don't simplify the I's until you actual run them, that _doesn't_ return but keeps heaping on I's
00:58:38 <elliott> oerjan: yeah but only a silly person would do that. ha ha, silly.
00:58:57 <elliott> oerjan: (reminds me of the superstrict lambda calculus which probably has a name other than that one that i made up but i don't know it)
00:59:16 <elliott> oerjan: (where in (\x. ...(f y)...), (f y) is evaluated)
00:59:23 <elliott> i.e. the term (\x. Y Y) itself diverges
00:59:30 <oerjan> elliott: it was sort of a point when i analyzed 0x29a
00:59:41 <elliott> (ofc you can consider that (\x. Y Y) = (\x. _|_) = _|_, but i was speaking from an observation point of view)
01:01:24 <oerjan> elliott: wait you made up "superstrict"?
01:01:38 <elliott> oerjan: ...well that could be that thing, where you think you made up something that actually you heard and forgot. forgot the name.
01:01:48 <elliott> http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=superstrict+lambda+calculus doesn't show up anything
01:01:58 <oerjan> in that case i must have heard about it from you because that's the name i associate with it too
01:02:00 <elliott> so i guess i did invent that term, maybe, at least for super-strict lambda calculus
01:02:11 <zzo38> I mean, one point = 1/72.27 inch or one point = 1/72 inch ?
01:02:14 <elliott> oerjan: i think i was the one who blabbed about it, yeah... i'd say it's quite related to specialisation too
01:02:30 <elliott> oerjan: in that in (\y. f 42 y), (f 42) will be evaluated immediately
01:02:34 <elliott> and all the simplifiable parts inside will be too
01:02:47 <elliott> i keep meaning to implement it.
01:03:44 <oerjan> so argh, how do you do ! = a(!)** without ~ ...
01:06:42 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:13:11 -!- Zuu has joined.
01:14:06 <Sgeo> elliott, WRONGPERSONPONG
01:14:28 <elliott> BREAK OUT OF THAT INFINITE LOOP
01:15:08 * Sgeo cuts power to elliott
01:15:14 -!- Gregor has set topic: The Internet's #1 Tay Zonday fan club! | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
01:15:30 <elliott> oerjan: mathematicians do not EAT
01:15:44 * Sgeo sends random APIC stuff to elliott
01:15:55 <Gregor> elliott: The Chocolate Rain guy :P
01:16:01 * Sgeo rains on ell.. damn yyou
01:16:50 <elliott> Gregor: i know who he is :|
01:17:24 <Gregor> elliott: Then WELCOME TO HIS FAN CLUB
01:21:55 <Sgeo> Being unable to just forcibly shutdown a VM without saving state is a SEVERE misfeature of VMware Player
01:22:56 <Sgeo> Or maybe it is possible, hmm
01:30:46 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
01:30:54 -!- pikhq has joined.
01:35:51 <Sgeo> elliott, how do I avoid getting pissed at Chrome's utter lack of decent download management?
01:35:56 <oerjan> YEAH NOW I'M BROWSING THE IWC FORUM
01:36:32 <elliott> http://www.mspaintadventures.com/storyfiles/hs2/02091.gif <-- we emacss users should get together and lynch this guy
01:38:02 <elliott> Sgeo: chrome has perfect download management, and i'm not your anger management consultant.
01:38:09 <elliott> get as pissed as you want.
01:42:47 <elliott> what's the generic list folding function in underload for ~^ lists
01:43:42 <oerjan> um they're quite naturally left to right
01:44:07 <elliott> oh you mean the natural fold is left?
01:44:08 -!- zzo38 has left (?).
01:45:30 <oerjan> ^ul ((x1)~^(x2)~^(x3)~^)()~(((a(~^)**)~a*^:a~*):^)~^(~aS:^):^ to reiterate...
01:45:30 <fungot> (((a(~^)**)~a*^:a~*)(a(~^)**)~a*^:a~*)((x1)~^(x2)~^(x3)~^) ...out of stack!
01:45:45 <elliott> oerjan: yeah but is that generic?
01:45:53 <oerjan> no, THAT WAS TO REITERATE
01:46:09 <elliott> I THOUGHT YOU MEANT REITERATE TO ME
01:47:08 <oerjan> ^ul ((x1)~^(x2)~^(x3)~^)(zero duh)~((((f[)~*(])**)~a*^:a~*):^)~^(~aS:^):^
01:47:08 <fungot> ((((f[)~*(])**)~a*^:a~*)((f[)~*(])**)~a*^:a~*)(zero duhf[x1]f[x2]f[x3]) ...out of stack!
01:47:26 <elliott> oerjan: that's not VALID, [ and ] are RESERVED
01:47:33 <elliott> you need to quote them with "!
01:48:45 <oerjan> ^ul ((x1)~^(x2)~^(x3)~^)(zero duh)~((((,)~**(f/)~*(\)**)~a*^:a~*):^)~^(~aS:^):^
01:49:01 <elliott> SO OERJAN I'M GOING TO TOTALLY FLASHQUESTION YOU
01:49:07 <elliott> HOW DO YOU ELIMINATE THAT THING YOU WERE
01:49:18 <elliott> OR WAS IT WITHOUT * I FORGET
01:49:37 <oerjan> ^ul ((x1)~^(x2)~^(x3)~^)(zero duh)~((((,)~**(f/)~*(\)*)~a*^:a~*):^)~^(~aS:^):^
01:49:37 <fungot> ((((,)~**(f/)~*(\)*)~a*^:a~*)((,)~**(f/)~*(\)*)~a*^:a~*)(f/f/f/zero duh,x1\,x2\,x3\) ...out of stack!
01:50:25 <oerjan> there was just a lot of junk on top
01:51:15 <oerjan> WELL FIRST YOU SOLVE THE EQUATION ! = a(!)** WITHOUT USING ~ OR ! THE REST IS EASY
01:52:04 <elliott> oerjan: you have a ! on the left hand side, how can i remove that ha ha
01:52:15 <oerjan> YOU SOLVE FOR IT SILLY
01:53:00 <elliott> oerjan: okay so to FIX YOUR STUPIDITY
01:53:36 <elliott> oerjan: DUDE I AM TRIPPING OUT AT THIS JUNCTURE.
01:53:45 <elliott> IS THAT EVEN A THING THAT IS POSSIBLE.
01:54:03 <oerjan> i don't know if it is possible that you are tripping out
01:54:41 <elliott> oerjan: IS (...)X = ((...)X)* A THING THAT IS POSSIBLE.
01:54:53 <oerjan> this is easy if you have
01:55:37 <elliott> that was the original statement
01:55:47 <elliott> oerjan: i'm not sure that's possible pretty muches
01:56:06 <elliott> oerjan: uh so wait does x have to do anything in particular.
01:56:43 <oerjan> that's pretty much what it needs to do
01:57:15 <elliott> oerjan: why can't you just use your ~ expansoin
01:57:29 <oerjan> ...actually we don't want to use :^* there
01:57:36 <elliott> (a:^*(a)aa((!((aa)(!))))*:*^!**^a*^a*aa*(*:*^!**^)*^(**)*):^
01:57:56 <elliott> oerjan: anyway apply your !-expander to ^ or sth :P
01:58:10 <oerjan> yeah but a(:^)* is more compact
01:58:22 <elliott> is my solution a solution or not :-P
01:58:27 <elliott> (ok your solution, modified by me)
01:58:29 <oerjan> well i was _thinking_ about adapting the ~ expansion
01:58:46 <oerjan> but first i was wondering if it was essential
01:59:06 <oerjan> the ! in it needs to be replaced with something else, of course
02:00:05 <oerjan> also, not use all of it, just the aa((!(X)))*:*^!**^ subroutine
02:00:19 <elliott> <oerjan> the ! in it needs to be replaced with something else, of course
02:00:23 <oerjan> with X = a, presumably
02:00:25 <elliott> oerjan: that's why i said use whatever your ! trick is
02:01:05 <oerjan> ...we don't want to go all recursive either, this is ! we are writing
02:01:18 <oerjan> but * or something might work in this particular spot
02:01:38 <elliott> oh we're writing !? right :D
02:01:46 <elliott> can't you just expand it infinitely recursively bro
02:03:42 <oerjan> that was _sort_ what that ! = a(!)** thing was trying to do
02:04:31 <oerjan> ok so (a(:^)*aa((!(a)))*:*^!**^(**)*):^
02:05:17 <oerjan> i'll run it in the javascript debugger
02:06:43 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
02:07:42 <elliott> oerjan: EVERYTHING WILL BE OK
02:08:43 <oerjan> i think this needs a break
02:12:17 <elliott> gah am i turning into sgeo
02:13:59 -!- Ethi has joined.
02:14:39 <elliott> also do programming languages.
02:14:49 <elliott> isn't that right, Head Goat Sacrificer oerjan.
02:15:25 <Gregor> We sacrifice goats in the holy name of Tay Zonday.
02:15:47 <elliott> what Gregor says, is a factual fact.
02:18:19 -!- Ethi has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
02:19:23 <Sgeo> One of these days, I'll invite someone here, and e'll stick (Note: Ethi is not a Sgeo invitee. I don't know who Ethi is)
02:19:29 <oerjan> I AM NOT SURE THIS IS QUITE THE RIGHT WELCOMING METHOD FOR ATTRACTING ACTUAL ESOLANGERS
02:19:33 <elliott> fucking ethi, never gave us a chance
02:19:43 <elliott> oerjan: i mentioned programming languages, that's more than i usually do
02:19:59 <oerjan> but then anyone so impatient would never survive elliott anyway
02:20:02 <elliott> Sgeo: what you need to realise it that everybody is a horrible person.
02:20:09 <elliott> people being in here is like the worst
02:20:14 <elliott> and had i the power, this channel would be empty and therefore perfect
02:20:31 <Gregor> That was a ping timeout, for all we know heshe never got a message.
02:20:32 <elliott> BUT i can settle for the 20-something people we have in here right now.
02:20:40 <elliott> 30 is an unacceptable number and shall not be reached.
02:20:49 <elliott> this is why when Gregor turns 30, we will murder him.
02:20:56 * Sgeo points at the userlist
02:21:13 <Gregor> Good thing I finish building my time machine and assert the stable time loop that is me before then.
02:21:42 <oerjan> so basically we should all be happy that elliott cannot count.
02:21:47 <elliott> Prelude> length . words $ "pikhq Zuu augur elliott cheater- Wamanuz5 oerjan Sgeo sebbu Mathnerd314 fungot copumpkin coppro variable HackEgo tswett_ aloril jix pingveno mtve cal153 Gregor Mannerisky sftp lambdabot quintopia clog Slereah jcp rodgort Ilari ineiros_ comex_ SimonRC shachaf Deewiant Zwaarddijk dbc Leonidas fizzie Vorpal olsner yiyus EgoBot myndzi lifthrasiir Ilari_antrcomp mycroftiv"
02:21:47 <fungot> elliott: and you have to
02:21:53 <elliott> channel's over everything, time to go home.
02:22:07 <elliott> totally don't feel guilt about pinging everyone (totally didn't realise i was pinging everyone until i pasted that)
02:22:11 * Sgeo randomly kills 18 #esoteric'ers to aggrivate elliott more
02:22:14 <oerjan> elliott: HEY NO CHEATING USING HASKELL FOR SIMPLE COUNTING
02:22:25 <elliott> oerjan: i can't do arithmetic :D
02:22:30 <elliott> i'm like an idiot savant without the savant
02:22:39 <Gregor> I ordered some root extracts.
02:22:45 <Gregor> Gonna make myself some friggin' sweet Moxie.
02:22:56 <elliott> man do we really have almost 50 people in here.
02:23:24 <Sgeo> Clones are also people
02:23:33 <Gregor> Even so, no. There are fifty nicks in the channel, but roughly 35 of them have been idling for years and never talk.
02:23:49 <Sgeo> Maybe the PING will wake them up from their slumber
02:23:53 <Sgeo> clog! Start talking!
02:23:56 <elliott> Those are still people in here.
02:23:59 <Gregor> YEAH, I'M LOOKING AT YOU, COMEX UNDERSCORE
02:24:05 <oerjan> you are clogging the tubes!
02:24:08 <elliott> Dude, comex has talked in here X-P
02:24:23 <elliott> ha, who the fuck is he right?
02:24:26 <Gregor> He hasn't talked in a long time, right?
02:24:32 <elliott> Well I've never seen him talk.
02:24:35 <elliott> Although I do have him on ignore.
02:24:39 <elliott> Because he's so fucking irritating.
02:24:48 <oerjan> elliott: with all that not talking?
02:24:50 <elliott> I think most people do actually. he could be talking daily and we wouldn't notice.
02:24:52 <Gregor> Sgeo: It's a weird bird enemy from early Final Fantasy game.
02:24:58 <elliott> Gregor: Do you think we'd... better check?
02:25:08 <oerjan> zuu is the gatekeeper, or something.
02:25:09 <Gregor> elliott: POKE IT WITH A STICK
02:25:14 <elliott> ...nah, let's stay in blissful ignorance.
02:26:56 <oerjan> the christmas gatekeeper, to be precise
02:27:20 <Sgeo> Why is the Christmas gatekeeper in here?
02:27:21 <elliott> "Sony tried to sue a guy for getting his AIBO to do non Sony approved tricks"
02:27:28 <elliott> ...THIS TRICK IS NOT IN THE BOOK.
02:27:30 <elliott> WHAT DO YOU THINK YOU ARE DOING?
02:28:30 <elliott> copumpkin: [[Why should I trust you? I just saw you trying to rap battle Sony]]
02:29:37 <cheater-> http://images.wikia.com/compvter/it/images/c/c2/Olivetti_M380-XP9.jpg
02:29:54 <oerjan> i still have this feeling it should be possible to do x = a(x)** without using the expansion for ~ (or !, of course)
02:30:20 <elliott> keep dreaming, oerjanzipam
02:30:27 <elliott> (it is a pun on "marzipan")
02:30:51 * elliott reverts vandalism before oerjan gets to it
02:30:55 <cheater-> sounds more like one of the medications you get from your shrink
02:31:02 <elliott> <oerjan> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
02:31:02 <oerjan> elliott: shouldn't that be a halo?
02:31:14 <elliott> no that just looks like a stupid big rock on my head.
02:31:23 <elliott> that doesn't make much sense
02:31:36 <oerjan> THEY'RE A FREAK HAIR DISEASE
02:32:04 <elliott> also cheater can fuck right off
02:32:25 * Sgeo gives elliott a middle finger
02:32:35 <elliott> oerjan: srsly, when are you gonna use your op powers for good things rather than bad things (banning me) :D
02:33:23 <Sgeo> elliott> also cheater can fuck right off
02:33:45 <elliott> Sgeo: umm he's universally known to be a moron and a troll
02:33:51 <elliott> 18:30:55 <cheater-> sounds more like one of the medications you get from your shrink
02:33:56 <elliott> is both retarded and vaguely offensive
02:34:02 <elliott> so i dunno wtf you're complaining about
02:34:16 <oerjan> elliott: well it _does_ sound like that, honestly
02:34:23 * Sgeo retracts his middle finger. Vaguely.
02:34:43 <elliott> oerjan: yeah but at least you have the minimal self control to not say it :P
02:36:52 <oerjan> a(a(a(a(a(...)**)**)**)**)**
02:37:26 <elliott> oerjan: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA******************
02:37:32 <elliott> a new variation on the popular uncyclopedia article
02:37:42 <elliott> the most nested path-finding algorithm
02:37:51 <elliott> guaranteed. or your money back.
02:38:08 <oerjan> shouldn't that be AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACKERMANN*********
02:38:10 <elliott> oerjan: i really don't think it's possible anyway
02:39:24 <cheater-> are you giving eachothers reacharounds, elliott and Sgeo?
02:39:50 <elliott> oerjan: seriously just ban him already.
02:42:21 <elliott> CHANNEL ACTIVITY AT ALL-TIME HIGH
02:43:04 <fungot> *CHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ...too much output!
02:43:10 <Sgeo> Don't worry elliott, there's no such thing as oerjan.
02:43:14 <elliott> but what comes after the CHIIIII
02:43:22 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:43:29 <oerjan> ...IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIRP* of course
02:43:31 <Sgeo> *"It's ok elliott"
02:43:45 <Sgeo> arg, is it "It's ok", or "Don't worry"?
02:44:04 <oerjan> Sgeo: IF YOU HAVE TO ASK, YOU WORRY TOO MUCH
02:44:16 -!- augur has joined.
02:44:29 <oerjan> or is that a reference to something
02:44:41 <Sgeo> oerjan, the "no such thing" is a reference
02:44:42 <elliott> i think i even know what it is
02:44:57 <Sgeo> Not my not knowing the exact details right before it
02:45:39 <elliott> it's definitely "there's no such thing as [thing that is real]"
02:45:47 <elliott> i'm just waiting for Sgeo to fill us in
02:46:12 <Sgeo> Where Bender has a dream and sees 0s and 1s and a 2
02:46:31 <elliott> Sgeo: that wasn't what i was thinking of
02:46:31 <oerjan> INDEED MAGGIE THATCHER IS NOT A REGULAR FUTURAMA CHARACTER. I THINK.
02:46:46 <Sgeo> Huh. Well, that's what I was referencing.
02:46:55 <Sgeo> So now, was Futurama referencing something else?!
02:47:36 <oerjan> elliott: also what's the synchronicity? you just reminded me of that thatcher quote. well i think it's a quote
02:47:49 <elliott> what was the quote. oh, there's no such thing as society?
02:47:55 <elliott> i'm just a fucking confuse
02:47:58 <elliott> oerjan: i thought you meant that
02:48:04 <elliott> "there's no such thing as [REAL THING]"
02:48:17 <elliott> that's kind of the opposite of religion
02:48:22 <elliott> stop making me say stupid things.
02:48:25 <oerjan> although i vaguely think "there's no such thing as" has been used other places
02:48:45 * Sgeo gives oerjan a free lunch
02:48:46 <elliott> ooh look, cheater hates oerjan too
02:48:46 <elliott> 15:06:11 <cheater00> oerjan: http://www.ee.ryerson.ca/~elf/hack/academic.html
02:48:49 <oerjan> i think i'll have to look up what thatcher meant
02:49:43 <oerjan> "There's no such thing as gives a heap of google suggestions
02:49:46 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5eufYYpHwE
02:50:01 <oerjan> free lunch being first, society third
02:51:02 <Sgeo> Well, I googled
02:51:35 <elliott> there's no such thing as "thing"
02:52:03 <oerjan> "They're casting their problem on society. And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations."
02:52:32 <elliott> tl;dr "I'm a sociopath, and you should be one too!"
02:53:17 <Sgeo> Note: Keep elliott away from political humor before allowing him to comment.
02:53:39 <oerjan> maybe she was. but it's still a great truth (the kind of truth for which the opposite is also true)
02:53:53 <Sgeo> I, for one, refuse to comment on Thatcher. My only knowledge of anything relating to her comes from F&L, so...
02:54:02 <Sgeo> I am completely unqualified to comment.
02:54:42 <elliott> oerjan: Almost nothing Thatcher said is true.
02:55:05 <elliott> Unless she's ever had a big speech about how much of a shithead she is, or, uh, wrote a book on how to destroy Britain.
02:55:22 <Sgeo> Can someone explain why people hate Thatcher?
02:55:31 <Sgeo> (Note: sample size n=3)
02:55:44 <elliott> Sgeo: She was the UK's big, big taste of the far-right-wing.
02:55:51 <oerjan> Sgeo: she _was_ rather ruthless i hear
02:55:54 <elliott> Not that Americans would notice since that kind of shit is par for the course for them.
02:56:09 <elliott> It turns out that privatising everything and then fucking all the workers in the ass does not make people particularly happy.
02:57:28 <elliott> Sgeo: Do you have an opinion on Reagan? Let's just assume yes.
02:57:52 <elliott> Thatcher was basically Reagan, the UK version. Except also a gigantic, gigantic stuck-up asshole.
02:58:11 <elliott> (And of course Reagan wasn't /especially/ right-wing for the US, whereas in the UK even our right-wing party is far to the left of the Democrats.)
03:00:36 <oerjan> ^ul (test)((a):a*^):a*^(~S:^):^
03:00:36 <fungot> (a):a*^a(test) ...out of stack!
03:00:44 <oerjan> ^ul (test)((a):a*^):a*^(~aS:^):^
03:00:44 <fungot> ((a):a*^)(a)((test)) ...out of stack!
03:00:57 <elliott> oerjan: just use :^ to construct x = a(x)** >:D
03:01:02 <elliott> wait could that actually work?
03:01:08 <elliott> fixed-pointing it somehow?
03:01:19 <oerjan> elliott: the problem is how to avoid needing ~ to get the a to the left of the x
03:01:43 <elliott> oerjan: (a)...construct x...*?
03:01:58 <oerjan> THERE ARE STILL TWO *'s
03:02:18 <elliott> oerjan: I DON'T SEE YOUR POINT
03:02:32 <oerjan> just that you keep forgetting a *
03:03:16 <elliott> oerjan: yes yes i didn't mean that
03:03:28 <oerjan> elliott: the thing is that to get recursion, you need to have a copy on the stack to start from, which gets in the way of the (a)
03:03:29 <elliott> oerjan: construct it as fix (\x -> a(x)**)
03:03:41 <elliott> push the (a) before doing the fixed-point?
03:04:10 <oerjan> well but you need the a to exist inside the fixed point as well
03:04:33 <elliott> that constructs x = a(x)**.
03:04:41 <elliott> unless i am SEVERELY MISTAKEN
03:04:58 <Gregor> !bfjoust furry_furry_strapon_pegging_girls http://sprunge.us/WZNL
03:05:42 <elliott> assuming fix leaves the rest of the stack intact.
03:05:52 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_furry_furry_strapon_pegging_girls: 0.0
03:05:59 <elliott> (whether fix is actually viable in underload, I don't know, but that's not my problem)
03:06:03 -!- zzo38 has joined.
03:06:05 <oerjan> um what does fix do, actually
03:06:16 <elliott> oerjan: fix(f) = f(f(f(f(f(...
03:06:23 <elliott> expressing that in underload is totes your problem.
03:06:25 <oerjan> elliott: i mean to the stack
03:06:39 <elliott> oerjan: well ok since obviously we can't do the normal fix
03:06:42 <elliott> we need the extra-argument form
03:06:50 <elliott> which we'll just disregard i guess?
03:07:12 <oerjan> elliott: i am not saying i disagree, btw
03:07:15 <Gregor> fizzie: U FAIL AT (({{}}))
03:07:16 <elliott> (a)(!()...somehow stuff what we have on stack (our fix function into that)...a(**)**)fix
03:07:44 <Gregor> !bfjoust furry_furry_strapon_pegging_girls http://sprunge.us/UDNC
03:07:51 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_furry_furry_strapon_pegging_girls: 67.5
03:08:00 <elliott> oerjan: (a)(!a(()^)*a(**)**)fix()^
03:08:19 <oerjan> elliott: it needs to be sufficiently lazy, of course
03:08:22 <elliott> oerjan: that's the one-extra-argument fix (i.e. strict fix) version
03:08:32 <elliott> oerjan: of course it has that one !.
03:08:52 <elliott> oerjan: the fix in question is
03:08:57 <elliott> ((a -> b) -> (a -> b)) -> (a -> b)
03:09:34 <Gregor> fizzie: See http://sprunge.us/WZNL
03:10:02 <elliott> oerjan: so can i have my allocates plzkthx
03:10:13 <elliott> hmm you could even use the crazy-ass recursion to remove that first ! maybe
03:10:30 <oerjan> elliott: my problem so far of putting the (a) on the stack first has been that the ~ problem shifts into the rebuilding code itself
03:10:31 <elliott> (unless you have pure dip?)
03:10:45 <elliott> oerjan: well that's why I abstracted it out into fix ;D
03:12:14 -!- zzo38 has left (?).
03:12:15 -!- zzo38 has joined.
03:12:54 <elliott> oerjan: IS THAT BECAUSE YOU... ARE LAME?
03:13:09 <elliott> hm wait you could actually do that with regular :^ perhaps
03:13:18 <elliott> except that'd end up requiring ~ probably
03:13:48 <elliott> oerjan: (a)(a(:^)*a(**)**):^
03:13:56 <fungot> a((a(:^)*a(**)**):^)**
03:14:12 <elliott> oerjan: looks fuckin' PERFECT to me.
03:14:16 <elliott> looks like i'm some kinda FUCKING GENIUS.
03:14:30 <elliott> oerjan: what, is that not right?
03:14:54 <oerjan> ^ul (a)(a(:^)*a(**)**):^(~aS:^):^
03:14:54 <fungot> (a((a(:^)*a(**)**):^)**) ...out of stack!
03:15:28 <oerjan> you will notice the absense of any (a) at the second level
03:15:52 <elliott> ^ul (a(a))(a(:^)*a(**)**):^S
03:15:52 <fungot> a(a)((a(:^)*a(**)**):^)**
03:15:59 <elliott> not quite like that, no, fungot.
03:15:59 <fungot> elliott: you guys are trying to learn. but getting stuck on the queens puzzle yet? it's s'posed to be very optimistic about people!
03:16:07 <elliott> `addquote <fungot> elliott: you guys are trying to learn. but getting stuck on the queens puzzle yet? it's s'posed to be very optimistic about people!
03:16:07 <fungot> elliott: world domination! now i'm playing with the bot
03:16:30 <elliott> oerjan: why can't you use ~ again
03:16:33 <oerjan> oh dear fungot has been possessed!
03:16:33 <fungot> oerjan: it includes a suprise
03:16:36 <Sgeo> "An email containing your Login Name, plain text password, and subscription information will be sent to the email address associated with your account."
03:16:44 <Sgeo> FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU WITH A RUSTY AXE
03:16:55 <HackEgo> 319) <fungot> elliott: you guys are trying to learn. but getting stuck on the queens puzzle yet? it's s'posed to be very optimistic about people!
03:16:55 <elliott> oerjan: also DO YOU HAVE DIP yes or no
03:17:40 <fungot> a((a(:^)*a(**)**):^)**
03:17:47 <elliott> possibly the most easy thing.
03:17:57 <elliott> ^ul (a)(:a(:^)*a(**)**):^S
03:17:57 <fungot> :a(:^)*a(**)**((:a(:^)*a(**)**):^)**
03:18:05 <Sgeo> Oh, and passwords must be lower cased
03:18:10 <Sgeo> FUCKING GENIUS
03:18:12 <elliott> ^ul (a)(a(:^)*a(**)*S*):^S
03:18:12 <fungot> ((a(:^)*a(**)*S*):^)** ...out of stack!
03:18:15 <elliott> ^ul (a)(a(:^)*a(**)S**):^S
03:18:16 * Sgeo middle fingers the place
03:18:18 <elliott> ^ul (a)(a(:^)*a(**)**S):^S
03:18:18 <fungot> a((a(:^)*a(**)**S):^)** ...out of stack!
03:18:22 <elliott> ^ul (a)(a(:^)*a(**)*~S*):^S
03:18:42 <elliott> ^ul (a)((a))(a(:^)*a(**)***):^S
03:18:42 <fungot> a(a)((a(:^)*a(**)***):^)**
03:18:58 <elliott> ^ul (a)((a))(a*(:^)*a(**)**):^S
03:18:58 <fungot> a((a)(a*(:^)*a(**)**):^)**
03:19:10 <elliott> oerjan: that goes to two levels now right?
03:19:41 <oerjan> now you are losing the ((a))
03:20:07 <elliott> oerjan: I SUSPECT AN INFINITE REGRESS HERE
03:20:19 <fungot> a((a(:^)*a(**)**):^)**
03:20:22 <elliott> ^ul (a)(Sa(:^)*a(**)**):^S
03:20:23 <fungot> Sa(:^)*a(**)** ...out of stack!
03:20:32 <elliott> ^ul (a)(~Sa(:^)*a(**)**):^S
03:21:04 <oerjan> i think even an x = a(x) would be a great starting point
03:21:11 <elliott> oerjan: i have an idea though
03:21:16 <elliott> is there something not using swap which goes
03:21:24 <elliott> is there something that goes
03:21:56 <oerjan> not without also using !
03:22:03 <elliott> oerjan: why can't you use ~ again?
03:22:42 <oerjan> that would have to be some variation of the expansion for ~. i'd prefer to avoid it, it's going to blow up things something crazy even if it works
03:22:43 <elliott> oerjan: ok i think we can theorematicallyificatory prove that there is no way to do anything with the a below.
03:22:50 <cheater-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRON_Project
03:22:51 <elliott> (the only thing that looks one down)
03:23:12 <elliott> ^ul ((a)~^)((foobar)**):^S
03:23:23 <elliott> oerjan: dude, i don't care if it'd explode
03:23:57 <elliott> ^ul ((a)a*)((foobar)**^):^S
03:24:04 <elliott> ^ul ((a)*)((foobar)**^):^S
03:24:21 <elliott> ^ul ((a)*)(((hello fuckworld)S)**^):^S
03:24:33 <elliott> ^ul ((a))(((hello fuckworld)S)**^):^S
03:24:55 <cheater-> http://www.linuxinsider.com/story/31855.html
03:25:04 <cheater-> The Most Popular Operating System in the World
03:26:05 <augur> you pinged unintentionally, i responded unnecessarily.
03:26:27 <elliott> oerjan: can you just do the blowup version FIRST? :D
03:26:31 <elliott> just proving it would be a feat.
03:26:49 <zzo38> Pingpingpingpingpingpingpingpingpingpingpingpingpingpingpingpingpingpingpingping oops it is stuck!!
03:27:19 <elliott> surely you've noticed zzo is weird by now.
03:27:22 <elliott> you seem awfully surprised by it lately
03:51:51 <elliott> so are you BACK YET oerjan
03:52:19 <elliott> oerjan: did your or my idea work :(
03:55:40 <oerjan> ...now you're making me feel guilty. which is poison to creativity, and makes sure my brain _won't_ work to find a solution until it passes.
03:56:12 <elliott> oerjan: your elaborate web of excuses amuse me!
03:56:40 <elliott> what if i like, came up with a bunch of really terrible pointless suggestions, could you exercise your brain by dismissing them
03:57:21 <elliott> oerjan: ok what if you did it like
03:57:37 <elliott> (a)(:^(to get the resulting fixpoint)!*(**)*):^
03:57:55 <elliott> haha, sorry, i think i just made the first joke written in underload :/
03:58:12 <oerjan> that _does_ look pretty loopy
03:58:46 <elliott> puns! you are getting back on the right track my friend.
03:58:57 <elliott> oerjan: personally i would just do the version where ! uses ~
03:59:01 <elliott> and have that expand a fuckton
03:59:05 <elliott> and once it's proved, work on refining
03:59:12 <elliott> but then i have never done anything :D
04:00:42 <elliott> hmm i think i disabled the oerjan-bot
04:00:48 <elliott> insufficient coffee supply --> no theorems??
04:01:12 <oerjan> i just had an ice coffee mocha
04:01:20 <elliott> gross. are you sure you're human?
04:01:29 <elliott> (ok i've had ice coffee before and even liked it. but i don't admit it in _public_.)
04:01:33 * oerjan doesn't drink enough coffee to brew at home
04:01:53 <elliott> maybe that explains your insufficient theorem output :D
04:02:02 <oerjan> and that instant stuff which i keep for emergencies is vile
04:02:29 <oerjan> especially after i haven't used it for months :D
04:03:09 <oerjan> my stomach cannot take more than a couple cups of coffee per day, regardless
04:03:30 <elliott> i like your :Ds, we need more :D in this channel, it's quite a good smiley
04:03:45 <oerjan> i don't think i used it before i came here
04:04:00 <elliott> oerjan: when was that, 1947? :D
04:04:09 <oerjan> i recall i used :-) in agora and thereabouts
04:04:17 <elliott> i can't imagine you have a nose, sorry
04:04:43 <elliott> 06.06.12:16:38:54 <oerjan> hi gregorR
04:04:43 <elliott> 06.06.12:16:40:11 <oerjan> first time here
04:04:43 <elliott> 06.06.12:16:40:37 <oerjan> right :-)
04:04:43 <elliott> 06.06.12:16:41:01 <oerjan> (first time in years i'm on irc, too)
04:04:43 <elliott> 06.06.12:16:43:01 <oerjan> thought so :-)
04:05:01 <oerjan> in 1947 my parents were babies
04:05:10 <elliott> oerjan: that means nothing to a time-traveller.
04:05:31 <Gregor> elliott: wtf was that log :P
04:05:33 <elliott> Are you referring to my massive ping of everyone or my ping-by-quote just now? :P
04:05:38 <elliott> Gregor: oerjan's first appearance (oerjan's lines only)
04:05:52 <Sgeo> VirtualBox, what do you mean, I can't even edit the description of a VM while it's running?
04:05:54 <elliott> "gregorR" it's like... aargh
04:05:56 <elliott> how could anyone type that
04:06:06 <elliott> but not robo-hitler, robo-hitler has no digits.
04:06:18 <elliott> jew hitler would have to be paid to do it. like everything
04:06:34 <Gregor> Notice how I was here when oerjan first joined, and yet oerjan has ops and I don't.
04:07:01 <elliott> That's because oerjan doesn't spend days fiddling with furry furry strap-on pegging girls.
04:07:09 <elliott> He's more mature, he sticks to wet furry pornographic material.
04:07:13 <Gregor> Fiddling? We don't fiddle.
04:07:35 <elliott> They're only 7 years old, you sick fuck.
04:07:53 <cheater-> http://tdwright.co.uk/phpplayground/BF/
04:07:55 <oerjan> Gregor: that _is_ a bit strange, you don't seem like a very disruptive guy
04:08:10 <elliott> yeah but he's loud and abrasive and american
04:08:16 <elliott> you're, like, totally likeable.
04:08:27 <oerjan> i mean not giving elliott ops - that's obvious
04:08:36 <elliott> hey i've been here longer than you ... well ok that's a lie
04:09:01 <elliott> why do you think i'm still here, i'm waiting for my sheer oldbieness to overwhelm the fact that i'm an irritating little shit, and finally get ops ;D
04:09:25 <oerjan> elliott: about on your 90th birthday
04:09:45 <oerjan> after which you exterminate the channel
04:09:52 <elliott> happy robot set fire to things!
04:10:22 <oerjan> happy fire, happy red colors!
04:10:48 <elliott> ok i think me and oerjan need sending off to an asylum pronto.
04:11:46 <elliott> oerjan: so are you taking my perfect suggestion ;D
04:11:53 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
04:12:07 <oerjan> he could not bear to hear the answer
04:12:15 -!- elliott has joined.
04:12:18 <elliott> do ! with ~ -- and i was just going to mention how stable my connection got
04:12:36 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
04:12:52 -!- elliott has joined.
04:12:57 <elliott> you're fucking kidding me.
04:13:03 <elliott> ~ the way you are already doing it
04:13:23 <oerjan> elliott: the way i'm already doing ~ is with !
04:13:24 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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04:14:41 <oerjan> {:} a(*)**a((junk))*:*^ :
04:14:41 <oerjan> {(x)} ({x})(junk) ({x})
04:14:43 <oerjan> {a} a(*)**a((junk))*(junk) a
04:14:52 <oerjan> you will note the empty line (~)
04:15:12 <oerjan> the left ones were my earlier junk between neighbors idea
04:15:17 <elliott> oerjan: can't you use your existing construction for ! or whatever?
04:16:31 <oerjan> i don't _have_ an existing construction for ! without ~ there
04:17:11 <Sgeo> Why are filesystems accessible from EFI?
04:18:24 <oerjan> elliott: the thing is if ! could be directly expressed without ~ then it would be perfect - just fill in that and substitute it in my already known expression for ~, QED
04:18:45 <elliott> oerjan: but what if ! is expressable with ~ and you do it recursively?
04:18:52 <elliott> maybe that would have better luck than trying to do ! recursively itself!
04:20:01 <oerjan> well there is also the (X)~ = aa((!(X)))*:*^!**^
04:20:02 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
04:20:25 -!- elliott has joined.
04:23:49 <elliott> hey Gregor we have a dirty pachelbel fan in our wake
04:31:52 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
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04:32:59 -!- Lymia has quit (Changing host).
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04:46:17 <zzo38> Is any symbol for variance used other than $\sigma^2$?
04:46:45 <Gregor> Y'know what? I'm gonna turn it 'round.
04:46:57 <Gregor> I'm AWESOME because I'm the longest-lasting no-privileges #esoteric member.
04:47:21 <Gregor> fizzie may be older, but that's just because he's got some benefits, some attachment.
04:47:31 <Gregor> He's just here for the power trip.
04:47:39 <zzo38> Gregor: Turn what?
04:47:44 <Gregor> Me on the other hand, I've got nothin'.
04:47:53 <Gregor> I've been here five years and I'm here out of LOVE.
04:48:37 <Gregor> zzo38: The fact that I'm a longer-lasting member of #esoteric than everyone but fizzie, and yet I don't have ops (and e.g. oerjan does :P )
04:50:15 <zzo38> But I think you have made many things of interest?
04:50:15 <zzo38> Gregor: Yes, but do you need ops? I don't need ops. Nor does most others.
04:50:15 <zzo38> It is possible to change the topic message without being channel operator.
04:50:41 <Gregor> Exactly! I don't need ops. I don't need something tying me down to stick with it!
04:53:19 <zzo38> But, do you know why some of the account flags does not display when NS INFO command is used? QUIETCHG flag is not displayed.
04:55:05 <zzo38> I have flags set HIDEMAIL, NOMEMO, NOOP, NEVEROP, QUIETCHG, but it won't display any notificiation that I have QUIETCHG set, except when I try to turn it on, it says this flag is already set.
05:10:36 <zzo38> What information can you see in my account with NS INFO? I can see a bunch of information and I want to know which ones are hidden to you.
05:12:34 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
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05:13:09 <pikhq> 18% of Americans believe in geocentrism.
05:13:12 <pikhq> No. Fucking. Joke.
05:13:17 <pikhq> AND THESE PEOPLE VOTE.
05:13:41 <zzo38> Why should geocentrism affect your vote?
05:14:06 <pikhq> zzo38: It demonstrates a willful disregard for evidence and reasoning.
05:15:02 <zzo38> Actually, I think if you put the Earth (or even yourself) in the center, all the physics still works. However, it works much better with the sun in the center.
05:15:45 <zzo38> Do you believe me?
05:16:03 <pikhq> Well, in a *technical* sense, which body is the center of your reference frame makes no difference to how the physics actuaally work.
05:16:10 <pikhq> Because *that* is merely an arbitrary choice.
05:16:15 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, that is what I meant.
05:16:37 <pikhq> But that's not what's usually meant by "geocentrism".
05:17:07 -!- Sgeo has joined.
05:17:21 <Sgeo> I blame Windows 2003
05:18:19 <pikhq> Usually, it refers to the Ptolemaic model, wherein the heavenly bodies are attached to a circle on a circle, configured such that the predictions of this match actual astronomical observation.
05:18:20 <zzo38> Maybe I should look up "geocentrism" in Wikipedia.
05:19:24 <pikhq> Also, this geocentric model completely fails to account for the seasons.
05:24:10 <zzo38> I think Pythagoras beloeved that neither the earth nor sun in center; they believed in things that we now see cannot exist.
05:24:29 <zzo38> But at the time, they would not have been able to know that, so it would have worked for them.
05:25:45 <pikhq> Pythagoras was pretty smart. Just limited in his observation equipment.
05:26:52 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, it is what I was mentioning.
05:27:12 <coppro> pikhq: and also obssessed with some stupid ideas
05:27:20 <coppro> like his irrational hatred for numbers that weren't fractions
05:27:25 <zzo38> coppro: Yes, that, too.
05:28:11 <pikhq> coppro: I didn't say he was perfect.
05:28:17 <zzo38> How can I disable the scroll wheel in the mouse driver?
05:28:26 <Sgeo> I'm pretty sure coppro just wanted to make the joke
05:28:53 <Sgeo> Then again, Im not coppro
05:28:57 <Sgeo> And neither is I'm
05:29:01 * Sgeo goes grammatically insane
05:30:12 <pikhq> Better than semantically.
05:31:09 <zzo38> But, what I am talking about the relative physics, is that if you say you are the center of the universe then you are not incorrect. However, if you want to look at the motion of planets and stuff inside of our solar system, saying sun is center is better.
05:32:11 <zzo38> But what if you want to see the galaxies motions? Then you should probably find something else to say is center.
05:33:31 <Sgeo> This is the. most. bizzare. song that I have ever heard
05:33:38 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tokE083QMw
05:34:25 <Vorpal> <elliott> Prelude> length . words $ "[list of nicks in channel]" <-- you know, my irc client has a count already it displays in the status bar: "50 (0 ops)"
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05:44:13 <Lymia> elliott isn't here.
05:44:38 <Sgeo> He logreads. Mostly.
05:44:59 <Lymia> He literally isn't here.
05:45:50 <oerjan> CORRECT AND IRRELEVANT
05:46:20 <Sgeo> THE BEST KIND OF CORRECT AND IRRELEVANT
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05:47:07 <pikhq> It is so very strange listening to Korean as a Japanese speaker.
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05:47:33 <pikhq> It's like, I'm almost catching maybe-cognates all the time. Yet not. So fucking weird.
05:48:33 <pikhq> (and yes, "cognate" is the right term. Even if Korean and Japanese aren't related (open question), they certainly do have a large quantity of cognates, from them both having a large injection of Sinitic vocabulary)
05:49:51 <zzo38> I am still working on TeXnicard. I am nearly finished. And then I will make some template.
05:50:39 <pikhq> And if it's technical conversation, I'm *actually* picking up cognates, which is even weirder, oddly enough.
05:51:32 <zzo38> pikhq: How often did you listen to any Korean speaking?
05:51:42 <pikhq> zzo38: It doesn't come up often.
05:51:58 <pikhq> But sometimes, it does, and it's weird when it does happen.
06:05:54 <Lymia> Is that why people say that Korean and Japanese are related?
06:08:41 <pikhq> Lymia: Actually, the grammar really does it.
06:10:08 <pikhq> It's genuinely eerie the grammar similarities they have.
06:10:47 <Lymia> Are there any other languages with grammar like Japanese that arn't on the island of Japan?
06:11:37 <zzo38> I would expect there is some similar grammar with different languages.
06:11:56 <Lymia> Japanese is weird.
06:12:09 <pikhq> Not that weird, really.
06:12:17 <Lymia> English is more weird.
06:12:30 <pikhq> Just with disputed relations to anything but the other Japonic languages.
06:12:39 <zzo38> Yes, English is weird in many ways I think.
06:12:47 <zzo38> But other language is, also.
06:13:00 <pikhq> Lymia: Actually, Japanese has many of the same things that makes English weird, as far as its history goes.
06:13:34 <pikhq> Namely, English is a Germanic language with half of a Romance language glued on, and Japanese is a Japonic language with half of a Sinitic language glued on.
06:13:44 <zzo38> But even when I was young, and did not know anything about language other than English, I thought English cannot possibly be the "proper language".
06:14:30 <zzo38> (This is opposite of many people, who thought that since they know English that it *must* be the "proper language".)
06:14:42 <zzo38> It is strange that it is thinking like this?
06:14:59 <pikhq> zzo38: What's strange is your use of your native language in this manner. :P
06:15:15 <Lymia> zzo38 should go learn Chinese.
06:15:37 <pikhq> Maybe I'll learn a Chinese language if/when I attain fluency in Japanese.
06:15:46 <pikhq> (there's more than one, you know!)
06:16:00 <Lymia> Both my parents are Chinese, and I visit China every summer.
06:16:21 <pikhq> I'm going to guess that you are most familiar with Mandarin.
06:16:33 <zzo38> When I play Xiangqi (Chinese chess), I like to play with Traditional Chinese.
06:16:38 <Lymia> Cantonese sounds like an alien language! (ok, not really)
06:16:47 <pikhq> And Simplified Chinese? (gag)
06:17:25 <Sgeo> Six little eggs on the run
06:17:39 <Sgeo> They fuck each other three goes boom dubi dum
06:17:52 <zzo38> Many set of Xiangqi is Simplified Chinese, but I prefer the one with Traditional Chinese, I find it easier to understand, actually.
06:18:12 <Lymia> pikhq, move to Japan.
06:18:12 <pikhq> I have no doubt I'd find a traditional Xiangqi set easier.
06:18:16 <Lymia> You'll become fluent in no time.
06:18:24 <pikhq> Of course, I can play shōgi.
06:18:55 <zzo38> I can play shogi, too!
06:19:10 <pikhq> Not to mention I could just fucking read the characters. :P
06:19:33 <Sgeo> I can play Go.
06:19:43 <pikhq> Go's not hard to play at all.
06:19:47 <pikhq> Just very hard to play well.
06:20:39 <zzo38> Actually once I played Go against someone who was very good at it, and he gave me a shogi game afterwards, since he doesn't need it and he doesn't play shogi much.
06:20:42 <Lymia> Visiting Japan for a month or two would likely do it as well.
06:20:47 <zzo38> (I already have a set of Go)
06:20:57 <pikhq> Lymia: Depends on one's level of competence in the language, really.
06:21:14 <pikhq> Lymia: *Most* people who have some level of knowledge of it? Quite honestly, probably not.
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06:21:36 <Lymia> I'm assuming that you can communicate decently already.
06:21:58 <pikhq> Lymia: Most people go "OH HOLY FUCK THE KANJI", even the "fluent" speakers.
06:22:31 <Lymia> That being said, Japanese has the feel of something I'd expect more from a programming language for some reason.
06:23:09 <pikhq> Probably the emergent properties of its conjugation.
06:23:15 <zzo38> I find mixing kana with kanji makes it more efficient to read. However, it also makes it difficult to read it out loud.
06:23:44 * Lymia pokes zzo38 with an accusition of being an AI
06:24:02 <Lymia> He knows/is learning Japanese?
06:24:13 <pikhq> Kana + kanji are actually really easy to read after spending, say, a couple months of brute-force kanji learning.
06:24:32 <pikhq> Still a pain to read out loud, though.
06:24:36 <Lymia> pikhq, hopefully nobody does that with *insert language here's* API.
06:25:21 <zzo38> I read Akagi book and have experience with this.
06:25:23 <pikhq> (2 months should be sufficient for anyone to learn the rough semantics of the kanji in common use in Japanese, though it'll miss out on readings.)
06:25:56 <Lymia> zzo38, say something silly about Japanese.
06:26:16 <zzo38> Lymia: Like, what things?
06:27:39 <Lymia> Why are there three people here interstsed in some way in Japanese?
06:28:19 <zzo38> Because I like to read Akagi manga book.
06:28:22 <pikhq> Probably courtesy of Japan having cultural exports of interest to geeks.
06:28:30 <zzo38> And I can play Japanese mahjong game.
06:28:45 <Lymia> pikhq, it's still a language!
06:28:48 <Sgeo> I have no interest in Japanese
06:29:03 <pikhq> Lymia: Geeks are also more likely than most to be interested in languages in general.
06:29:08 <Sgeo> Just random things from Japan...
06:29:22 <zzo38> Sgeo: Which random things from Japan?
06:29:32 <Sgeo> Well, I guess Go is from China
06:29:42 <Lymia> pikhq, if it isn't obvious already, I'm currently trying to learn Japanese.
06:30:01 <Lymia> Seems to mirror my attempts to learn programming languages! "Oh wait... there's still a vocabulary to deal with..."
06:30:17 <zzo38> But they didn't call it "Go" in China. Also, there is a slight difference in rule in Japanese. I think it only matters in case of passing your turn? I don't know for sure.
06:30:18 <Lymia> Gak. Kanji. *is shot*
06:30:40 <pikhq> Lymia: Pick up "Remembering the Kanji, Part I", by James Heisig.
06:31:14 <pikhq> zzo38: They don't call it "Go" in Japan, either.
06:31:25 <pikhq> zzo38: It's "igo".
06:31:32 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, I know that. "Go" is just for short.
06:31:38 <Lymia> #esoteric: Now with extra not-Programming languages
06:31:40 <pikhq> (kanji just IIRC. They make sense, though.)
06:32:25 <zzo38> But how many other people in here can play Japanese mahjong game or can read Akagi manga book?
06:32:28 <Lymia> I never bothered to learn Hanzi.
06:32:33 <Lymia> Now I wish I did...
06:32:47 <pikhq> Lymia: Really, it's not hard to learn.
06:32:58 <Lymia> I havn't put much effort into it anyways.
06:33:01 <pikhq> Just insanely difficult with traditional methods.
06:33:04 <Lymia> I should likely do so.
06:33:18 <Lymia> pikhq, and the traditional method is?
06:33:22 <pikhq> Learning them stroke-by-stroke.
06:33:26 <pikhq> Which is *retarded*.
06:33:53 <pikhq> Almost all of them decompose into a handful of different components (about 200?).
06:34:05 <Lymia> So, it's something like Chinese's hanzi?
06:34:49 <pikhq> Essentially traditional Chinese, but there are some Japanese simplifications (nowhere near as severe as Simplified Chinese).
06:34:53 <pikhq> Also, some Japanese inventions.
06:35:51 <pikhq> Here's kanji in Japanese: 漢字. Here's hanzi in traditional Chinese: 漢字. Any further questions? :)
06:36:48 <pikhq> And, oh, fine, here's simplified: 汉字
06:37:20 <Lymia> I see a block with 6C43 in it.
06:37:22 <Lymia> That's a weird character.
06:37:32 <Lymia> No wait, that's a 9.
06:37:38 <Lymia> (stupid font issues)
06:37:38 <pikhq> Amusingly, simplified is much harder for me, because many of the simplifications break the ability to decompose the characters.
06:37:54 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/Hanzi.svg Character on the upper right.
06:38:46 <zzo38> I also see 6C49 but that is because I do not have Chinese fonts in my computer. I do have Japanese fonts.
06:39:20 <zzo38> pikhq: Simplified is harder for me, too. It is why, when I play Xiangqi, I play with Traditional.
06:40:25 <pikhq> Really, only thing going for simplified Chinese is that it has fewer strokes.
06:41:00 <pikhq> And even that's not that big of a deal if you just write in something similar semicursive script.
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06:42:31 <zzo38> When I make the template, it should be the card game called "Big Spiders Land" and it should have a card named "Kanji Practice". And have no Constructed format, only Limited.
06:46:40 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to DisembodiedVoice.
06:48:16 -!- DisembodiedVoice has changed nick to copumpkin.
06:49:47 <zzo38> Bible Quiz: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/textfile/miscellaneous/bible.quiz Can you answer these questions without refering to the Bible or to anything else?
06:51:13 <zzo38> No, you have to print it out and write the answer on the paper. You can change the font size to make it to fit all on one page.
06:51:57 <fizzie> Gregor: The error message you get from that is not supposed to be for (({{}})); it's for ({}{}) sort of stuff. But of course there might be a parser bug. I'll try to have a look; but your test case is a bit on the large side.
06:52:12 <Sgeo> zzo38, did you copy/paste that from Skeptic's Annotated Bible?
06:52:31 <zzo38> No, but I did copy it from a related document.
06:52:46 <zzo38> However, I cleaned it a bit to fit on plain text and deleted the parts which are not necessary.
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06:53:34 <zzo38> (You can search for the related document yourself if you want, but to answer the question like a real quiz you should use the plain text format, printing it if necessary.)
06:54:57 <fizzie> Gregor: You have in there a construction that doesn't really make sense: ([-{ ([+{ ..... { ... -- where ...'s are code with no ()s (except a single (+)*30).
06:55:07 <pikhq> 402 Payment Required
06:55:13 <pikhq> This is a real HTTP status code.
06:55:22 <fizzie> Gregor: The last { associates with the outer (, but that ( already has a { for it.
06:55:46 * Sgeo pays pikhq with six little eggs
06:56:00 <Sgeo> THis. Song. Is. Stuck. In. My. Head.
06:56:18 <zzo38> pikhq: I have written custom messages for most of the HTTP status codes including this one. For error 402 I mentioned that it is probably because you did not use Canadian money. (I know that isn't true; actually you cannot get such message on my server unless you specifically request it)
06:56:26 <fizzie> Gregor: If you're advocating that { should associate with the first "free" (, then sorry, the spec doesn't say so. :p
06:56:40 <Sgeo> How do you request a 402?
06:57:04 <pikhq> zzo38: Even 418 I'm a teapot?
06:57:31 <oerjan> fizzie: um it doesn't?
06:57:58 <Sgeo> pikhq, that's part of that coffee spec, isn't it?
06:58:05 <Sgeo> Not strictly HTTP?
06:58:39 <zzo38> I did not put 418. (At least not yet)
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06:59:01 <fizzie> oerjan: What "doesn't"? "Doesn't say"? I mean, you people might have talked something like that in here, but I'm going by http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust where the only thing about nested {}s is "Braces may be nested within braces. The innermost parentheses match the outermost braces --" and a (a(b{c{d}e}f)%2g)%2 as an example.
07:00:04 <fizzie> oerjan: So my parser does ( ( { { ... } } ) ) so that the inner {} always matches the outer () in that case.
07:00:05 <oerjan> fizzie: which happens to give the same result as saying an { matches the first free ( afaict
07:00:19 <fizzie> Well, yes, but it doesn't *say so*.
07:00:26 <Sgeo> Why is there an emacs implementation of HTCPCP?
07:00:40 <fizzie> And the behaviour differs for (({}({{}}))).
07:01:08 <Sgeo> pikhq_, where are my HTCPCP-compliant coffee machines?
07:01:15 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/errors/error.php?code=402
07:01:29 <pikhq_> Sgeo: That need be fixed.
07:01:36 <oerjan> fizzie: ah. i did not intend for that to be legal.
07:01:38 * Sgeo immediately begins wondering how to exploit error.php
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07:02:07 <oerjan> first free is not correct, no.
07:02:20 <oerjan> because that does not disallow (({}{}))
07:02:35 <zzo38> Sgeo: Try if you want to, and tell me if you figure out anything which is a security problem. However, I think I made it secure.
07:02:43 <oerjan> and what you wrote is simply adding an extra ({}) to that
07:03:09 <Sgeo> Well, that's bizarre behavior
07:03:15 <Sgeo> 500 when given 789
07:03:29 <fizzie> Well, Gregor is doing (({({{ ... in his thing. (I didn't look further to see how it goes on from that.)
07:03:55 <zzo38> Sgeo: Anything which is not supported by Apache or PHP will put 500 instead.
07:04:05 <oerjan> yeah that's not supposed to be legal either
07:05:39 <oerjan> that innermost rule may not be very good for things like (({}){})
07:06:07 <fizzie> Oh. So you *do* want first-free-style thing there after all.
07:06:32 <fizzie> If (({({{ is supposed to match A( B( B{ C( C{ A{.
07:06:39 <oerjan> well i invented the notation but didn't write it up on the wiki...
07:06:45 <pikhq_> Hey, they actually have the Trojan Room coffee pot camera up again.
07:07:06 <pikhq_> Someone actually bought it and set a camera on it.
07:07:13 <pikhq_> http://www.spiegel.de/static/popup/coffeecam/cam2.html
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07:08:19 <oerjan> fizzie: the rule as i intended: every ( must match with a { or a ), every { with a (, every } with a ), and every ) with a } or a ). and no matches may cross.
07:08:48 <oerjan> um i'm missing some detail
07:09:15 <oerjan> hm no i don't, that does disallow ({}{})
07:09:30 <oerjan> because that would give crossing matches
07:09:45 <fizzie> oerjan: "Bah", I say. I don't think I keep enough state to allow (({({{ as A( B( B{ C( C{ A{ easily while at the same time not making (({}({{ to be A( B( B{B} C( C{ A{.
07:10:17 <Lymia> (a(b{c}d{e}f{g{h}i{j}k}l{m}n)o{p}q)
07:10:39 <fizzie> Well, I do catch *that*.
07:11:27 <fizzie> But currently as a virtue of having the (-{ match specified "statically" directly as a function of the nesting depth.
07:11:27 <oerjan> fizzie: i've mentioned that i think parsing this properly requires two stacks, or one stack in parallel with recursive parsing
07:11:35 <pikhq_> (the Trojan Room coffee pot, for those who either *weren't* online in the 90s or don't remember, was a coffee pot with a camera put on it. In 1991. Inexplicably, this became well-known when the camera got hooked to the Internet in '93.)
07:12:07 <pikhq_> (and I actually remember the damned thing. Good God was I young when I started using the Internet regularly.)
07:12:31 <oerjan> fizzie: well in (({}({{ the first and third {'s do have the same nesting depth
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07:13:36 <fizzie> oerjan: Yes, but my nesting depth counts (s and then separately the number of {s without intervening (s, and does basically "take { match from {-nesting-depth deep in the (-stack".
07:14:27 <fizzie> So I would currently match the last { into the same ( in both (({}({{ and (({({{.
07:15:01 <oerjan> fizzie: ( increases nesting depth, { decreases it
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07:15:58 <fizzie> Yes, well, that's the same as looking more levels "deeper" in the (-stack.
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07:18:56 <oerjan> fizzie: another intuition is that when you turn (a{b}c)%n into egojoust's mismatched parenthesis notation (a)*nb(c)*n, all parentheses should match properly in the usual sense
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07:21:10 <fizzie> Well, I already have a two-stack approach, it's just counting {{}}s inside a single (); I think I can quasi-easily retrofit that to something which does your thing properly.
07:21:49 <fizzie> With any luck it's going to be even simpler.
07:22:28 <fizzie> The old solution had the {-stack actually to be sort of a stack-of-stacks to handle (({{ (({{ properly.
07:23:41 <fizzie> Since it was "{-stack for the 'current' immediately enclosing ()", basically.
07:25:56 <oerjan> i did ponder a bit how to parse this in a functional way, and then i figured that the parsing result should include a stack of still unmatched inner {'s...
07:26:38 <oerjan> although that structure got quite weird
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08:08:21 <fizzie> oerjan: Did you intend to allow things like [(++{]}--)%5?
08:10:20 <fizzie> I mean, it does have a sensible meaning [++++++++++]---------- and all.
08:11:29 <oerjan> it can be written as [(++)*5](--)*5
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08:11:57 <fizzie> Then I guess your "( increments nesting level, { decrements" rule isn't enough to catch those crossing loops, since [({] would be just the same as [()].
08:12:04 <oerjan> but it totally breaks the intended efficient implementation
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08:12:41 <oerjan> fizzie: um no, i said you need two stacks, one is for ({}) but the other is for _all_ types of brackets, matching intuitively
08:13:39 <fizzie> I do []-loops separately at the moment.
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08:13:56 <fizzie> I guess they could be in the same bit, though.
08:14:43 <fizzie> It does have the side-effect benefit of not requiring properly matched []s in ()*0 comments. :p
08:15:20 <oerjan> the intended efficiency from not needing to change any () loop state when you jump between []'s goes completely down the drain if you allow [] to cross over the rest
08:16:46 <fizzie> I don't really see that. Isn't the () loop-counter stack in identical state at A and B in A (...{ B }...)%5?
08:17:22 <oerjan> hm actually you are right in that case
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08:44:23 <zzo38> Do you own a copy of "The PROFESSIONAL Pokemon Sticker Book"?
08:46:29 <oerjan> ^ul (()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^):^
08:46:29 <fungot> */*/**/***/*****/********/*************/*********************/**********************************/*******************************************************/*****************************************************************************************/********************************************************************************* ...too much output!
08:46:47 <oerjan> ^ul (()((*)S))(~:^:^*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^):^
08:46:47 <fungot> */*/**/***/*****/********/*************/*********************/**********************************/*******************************************************/*****************************************************************************************/********************************************************************************* ...too much output!
08:49:39 <Lymia> Fibonacci sequence?
08:50:03 <oerjan> one of the oldest underload programs, i think
08:54:46 <oerjan> underload minimization, but not of program length
08:54:59 <oerjan> rather, removing individual instructions
08:55:14 <oerjan> (no i haven't done so above)
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09:17:59 <fizzie> Gregor: Please to be fetching a fixed copy at http://git.zem.fi/chainlance/blob_plain/master:/gearlance.c -- I make no claims for full compliance, but it at least gives identical results to egojsout for your http://sprunge.us/WZNL against few random opponents.
09:27:05 <oerjan> ^ul (((j))((*)S(j))(j))(aa((a(*)**((aa)(a(*)**))))*:*^a(*)****^a*^a*aa*(*:*^a(*)****^)*^:^a(*)**:^a(*)**aa((a(*)**(a(*)**)))*:*^a(*)****^**a((j))*aa((a(*)**((aa)(a(*)**))))*:*^a(*)****^a*^a*aa*(*:*^a(*)****^)*^^a(*)**a((j))*aa((a(*)**((aa)(a(*)**))))*:*^a(*)****^a*^a*aa*(*:*^a(*)****^)*^a(*)**aa((a(*)**((aa)(a(*)**))))*:*^a(*)****^a*^a*aa*(*:*^a(*)****^)*^aa((a(*)**(a(*)**)))*:*^a(*)****^**aa((a(*)**((aa)(a(*)**))))*:*^a(*)****^a*^a*aa*(*:*^a(*)****^)*^:(/)
09:28:22 <oerjan> huh only 5 characters too long
09:28:49 <oerjan> ^ul ((())((*)S())())(aa((a(*)**((aa)(a(*)**))))*:*^a(*)****^a*^a*aa*(*:*^a(*)****^)*^:^a(*)**:^a(*)**aa((a(*)**(a(*)**)))*:*^a(*)****^**a(())*aa((a(*)**((aa)(a(*)**))))*:*^a(*)****^a*^a*aa*(*:*^a(*)****^)*^^a(*)**a(())*aa((a(*)**((aa)(a(*)**))))*:*^a(*)****^a*^a*aa*(*:*^a(*)****^)*^a(*)**aa((a(*)**((aa)(a(*)**))))*:*^a(*)****^a*^a*aa*(*:*^a(*)****^)*^aa((a(*)**(a(*)**)))*:*^a(*)****^**aa((a(*)**((aa)(a(*)**))))*:*^a(*)****^a*^a*aa*(*:*^a(*)****^)*^:(/)S^):^
09:29:01 <oerjan> ^ul ()((())((*)S())())(aa((a(*)**((aa)(a(*)**))))*:*^a(*)****^a*^a*aa*(*:*^a(*)****^)*^:^a(*)**:^a(*)**aa((a(*)**(a(*)**)))*:*^a(*)****^**a(())*aa((a(*)**((aa)(a(*)**))))*:*^a(*)****^a*^a*aa*(*:*^a(*)****^)*^^a(*)**a(())*aa((a(*)**((aa)(a(*)**))))*:*^a(*)****^a*^a*aa*(*:*^a(*)****^)*^a(*)**aa((a(*)**((aa)(a(*)**))))*:*^a(*)****^a*^a*aa*(*:*^a(*)****^)*^aa((a(*)**(a(*)**)))*:*^a(*)****^**aa((a(*)**((aa)(a(*)**))))*:*^a(*)****^a*^a*aa*(*:*^a(*)****^)*^:(/)S^)
09:42:31 <oerjan> ^ul ((x)S(j))(::aa((a(*)**(a(*)**)))*:*^a(*)****^**aa((a(*)**(a(*)**)))*:*^a(*)****^**(j))^a(*)**^
09:42:38 <oerjan> ^ul ()((x)S(j))(::aa((a(*)**(a(*)**)))*:*^a(*)****^**aa((a(*)**(a(*)**)))*:*^a(*)****^**(j))^a(*)**^
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09:57:35 <oerjan> ^ul ()((())((*)S())())(aa((a(*)**((aa)(a(*)**))))*:*^a(*)****^a*^a*aa*(*:*^a(*)****^)*^:^a(*)**:^a(*)**aa((a(*)**(a(*)**)))*:*^a(*)****^**a(())*aa((a(*)**((aa)(a(*)**))))*:*^a(*)****^a*^a*aa*(*:*^a(*)****^)*^^a(*)**a(())*aa((a(*)**((aa)(a(*)**))))*:*^a(*)****^a*^a*aa*(*:*^a(*)****^)*^a(*)**aa((a(*)**((aa)(a(*)**))))*:*^a(*)****^a*^a*aa*(*:*^a(*)****^)*^aa((a(*)**(a(*)**)))*:*^a(*)****^**aa((a(*)**((aa)(a(*)**))))*:*^a(*)****^a*^a*aa*(*:*^a(*)****^)*^():(/)S
10:00:13 <fizzie> If that's supposed to end with (/)S^):^, it got cut off again; ends at "S". And the "now what" one ends with just "S^)".
10:01:50 <oerjan> ok then the now what one may have been correct
10:02:20 <oerjan> that () that appeared now was a mistake, i think
10:03:12 <oerjan> there's a possible shortcut in the * expansion, that should get it under
10:04:25 <fizzie> "* ...too much stack!" if I try to append the presumably missing :^ with the str+def trick.
10:04:37 <oerjan> not too unlikely, alas
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10:07:11 <oerjan> ^ul ()((())((*)S())())(aa((a(*)**((aa)(a(*)**))))*:*^a(*)****^a*^a*aa*(*:*^a(*)****^)*^:^a(*)**:^a(*)**aa((a(*)**):a*)*:*^a(*)****^**a(())*aa((a(*)**((aa)(a(*)**))))*:*^a(*)****^a*^a*aa*(*:*^a(*)****^)*^^a(*)**a(())*aa((a(*)**((aa)(a(*)**))))*:*^a(*)****^a*^a*aa*(*:*^a(*)****^)*^a(*)**aa((a(*)**((aa)(a(*)**))))*:*^a(*)****^a*^a*aa*(*:*^a(*)****^)*^aa((a(*)**):a*)*:*^a(*)****^**aa((a(*)**((aa)(a(*)**))))*:*^a(*)****^a*^a*aa*(*:*^a(*)****^)*^:(/)S^):^
10:07:54 <oerjan> well it _did_ manage to print on asterisk XD
10:08:07 <oerjan> what is the stack limit btw
10:10:08 <fizzie> ffaa*** is one limit, but I think it's the "out of time" one. Yes, it's that.
10:10:39 <fizzie> cd*:* is the stack limit.
10:11:40 <fizzie> Pppprobably. At least it's right there nearby the message. :p
10:12:11 <fizzie> 91g cd*:*+ 0` |, yes it does look like a stack-size check.
10:12:52 <fizzie> I could bump it up one order of magnitude if that helps.
10:13:22 <oerjan> probably not, exponential growth of the garbage seems likely
10:13:50 <oerjan> this is going to need an interpreter with actual structure sharing
10:14:51 <fizzie> ^ul (***************):*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*(yes)S
10:14:53 <fizzie> ^ul (***************):*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*(yes)S
10:15:01 <fizzie> It does seem to be there between 16k and 32k.
10:17:27 <oerjan> !underload http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/underload/test.ul
10:17:57 <oerjan> ok it's definitely working :)
10:18:11 <oerjan> and egobot did it reasonably fast, too
10:20:20 <oerjan> !haskell import System.IO; main = do putStr "hm "; hFlush stdin; main
10:20:31 <oerjan> !haskell import System.IO; main = do putStr "hm "; hFlush stdout; main
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10:21:16 <oerjan> hm does EgoBot give any response to timeout?
10:21:31 <oerjan> !haskell import System.IO; main = do putStr "hm "; hFlash stdout; main
10:22:13 <fizzie> Line 315, columns 16 and 22... so line 414, columns 15 and 21 in physical coords. That's line ee*b+2*, columns f and f6+. So...
10:22:15 <fizzie> ^bf 'ff6+ee*b+2*p'*fee*b+2*p
10:22:20 <fizzie> ^ul (***************):*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*(yes)S
10:22:44 <fizzie> No, that's not the run-befunge command, that's the brainfuck commad.
10:23:05 <fizzie> ^code 'ff6+ee*b+2*p'*fee*b+2*p
10:23:08 <fizzie> ^ul (***************):*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*(yes)S
10:23:16 <fizzie> The stack limit is now
10:23:46 <oerjan> ^ul ()((())((*)S())())(aa((a(*)**((aa)(a(*)**))))*:*^a(*)****^a*^a*aa*(*:*^a(*)****^)*^:^a(*)**:^a(*)**aa((a(*)**):a*)*:*^a(*)****^**a(())*aa((a(*)**((aa)(a(*)**))))*:*^a(*)****^a*^a*aa*(*:*^a(*)****^)*^^a(*)**a(())*aa((a(*)**((aa)(a(*)**))))*:*^a(*)****^a*^a*aa*(*:*^a(*)****^)*^a(*)**aa((a(*)**((aa)(a(*)**))))*:*^a(*)****^a*^a*aa*(*:*^a(*)****^)*^aa((a(*)**):a*)*:*^a(*)****^**aa((a(*)**((aa)(a(*)**))))*:*^a(*)****^a*^a*aa*(*:*^a(*)****^)*^:(/)S^):^
10:24:12 <fizzie> Heh, you hit the second stack limit, I guess.
10:24:22 <oerjan> fungot: getting a real workout today, are we?
10:24:22 <fungot> oerjan: confuse you more than ten gigabytes of data, mondrian is the way
10:25:09 <oerjan> it's still a _little_ disturbing that it didn't even get to the second string of asterisks - and EgoBot gave a _lot_ of lines
10:25:33 <fizzie> That limit is also dc*:*, it seems; or at least it's there near the "!gorp hcum oot..." string.
10:28:47 <fizzie> Line 317, columns 19, 20, 21; that is, 416 and 18, 19 and 20; so...
10:28:48 <fizzie> ^code 'ff3+ee*c+2*p'*f4+ee*c+2*p'-f5+ee*c+2*p
10:28:54 <fizzie> Sooner or later I'm going to break something.
10:29:08 <oerjan> ...you do at least have version control?
10:29:21 <fizzie> Yes, and these only touch the in-memory copy anyway.
10:29:33 <oerjan> ^ul ()((())((*)S())())(aa((a(*)**((aa)(a(*)**))))*:*^a(*)****^a*^a*aa*(*:*^a(*)****^)*^:^a(*)**:^a(*)**aa((a(*)**):a*)*:*^a(*)****^**a(())*aa((a(*)**((aa)(a(*)**))))*:*^a(*)****^a*^a*aa*(*:*^a(*)****^)*^^a(*)**a(())*aa((a(*)**((aa)(a(*)**))))*:*^a(*)****^a*^a*aa*(*:*^a(*)****^)*^a(*)**aa((a(*)**((aa)(a(*)**))))*:*^a(*)****^a*^a*aa*(*:*^a(*)****^)*^aa((a(*)**):a*)*:*^a(*)****^**aa((a(*)**((aa)(a(*)**))))*:*^a(*)****^a*^a*aa*(*:*^a(*)****^)*^:(/)S^):^
10:30:01 <fizzie> Heh, took quite a while longer this time to get there.
10:30:15 <oerjan> it _still_ went over limit before getting to the second asterisk :D
10:30:37 <oerjan> i guess there's no use trying any more with a string-based interpreter
10:30:57 <oerjan> or, for that matter, the /
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11:37:39 <oerjan> that goes with being a hoover, i take
11:38:18 <oerjan> elimination of ~! now on Underload page
11:42:57 <cheater-> have you finally eliminated it?
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12:17:41 <fizzie> Gregor: Also, you mentioned an expander; here's a dirt-simple (and readable, and maintainable, and all that) Perl-oneliner which should work for plain "()*N containing any loops" code:
12:17:46 <fizzie> ([+)*5([([)*2(+)*3)*6(])*23
12:17:51 <fizzie> $ perl -e '$p=$o=join("",<>); while(1){$p =~ s/\((([^()]*|\((?2)*\))*)\)\*(\d+)/index($1,"[")>=0||index($1,"]")>=0 ? $1x$3 : $&/egs; last if $p eq $o; $o=$p;} print $p;' < testx.b
12:17:51 <fizzie> [+[+[+[+[+[[[(+)*3[[[(+)*3[[[(+)*3[[[(+)*3[[[(+)*3[[[(+)*3]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
12:18:26 <fizzie> Altering the expression to match only ()s that have unbalanced []s left as an exercise.
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12:38:53 <fizzie> Well, now, that was simple:
12:38:58 <fizzie> ([+)*5([([)*2([+])*3)*6(])*23
12:39:02 <fizzie> $ perl -e '$p=$o=join("",<>); while(1){$p =~ s/\((([^()]*|\((?2)*\))*)\)\*(\d+)/my($b,$c,$f)=($1,$3,$&); $b =~ m{^([^\[\]]*|\[(?1)*\])*$} ? $f : $b x $c/egs; last if $p eq $o; $o=$p;} print $p;' < testx.b
12:39:02 <fizzie> [+[+[+[+[+[[[([+])*3[[[([+])*3[[[([+])*3[[[([+])*3[[[([+])*3[[[([+])*3]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
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12:42:39 <quintopia> now to not expand ({})% that are already matched?
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12:45:30 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: or so goes the story i tell to people who use gambit-c. i can't do music. well, it's open source
12:45:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, how I wish the full stop after "music" wasn't there.
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15:45:49 <Sgeo> This class is like one long advertisement for Microsoft
15:50:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, HAVE WE MENTIONED THAT YOU SHOULD HAVE TRANSFERRED MONTHS AGO
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15:57:48 <Sgeo> Who'd be interested in the blog?
16:07:49 <quintopia> at least as many people as are interested in your random postings to this channel, i'm sure
16:08:36 <Sgeo> Also, I'd feel weird talking about some of this stuff on the web
16:08:39 <Sgeo> clog doesn't count
16:09:32 <quintopia> you could adopt a new name and do it anonymously.
16:09:47 <quintopia> you know, where people don't know your real name and where you go to school and stuff
16:12:36 -!- Gregor has changed nick to gkrichar.
16:12:51 -!- gkrichar has changed nick to Gregor.
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16:14:11 <Gregor> My terrible username at Purdue.
16:14:22 <Gregor> Which was the default in this empty X-Chat setup I neglected to change.
16:15:26 <coppro> gkrichar is clearly the only correct username
16:15:32 <quintopia> must be nice having your real name as your nick on here...
16:16:12 <Gregor> Hell of a lot nicer than "gkrichar" :P
16:17:18 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: cap at 8 chras
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16:22:26 <Ilari> APNIC down 0.02 today.
16:23:21 <Gregor> Cap at 8 chars IN THE YEAR 2009 (when I got the ID)
16:23:45 <Gregor> At PSU I was "gregor" ... it was awesome :(
16:29:29 * Phantom_Hoover is smug that he will never have a meaningful name clash in his life.
16:30:01 <Gregor> !bfjoust I_just_want_the_old_myndzi_careless_of_the_board (>)*8(>[[-]])*21
16:30:27 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: None of this is about name clashes, just poor policies.
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16:32:16 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_I_just_want_the_old_myndzi_careless_of_the_board: 17.0
16:32:37 <Gregor> !bfjoust I_just_want_the_old_myndzi_careless_of_the_board <3
16:32:45 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_I_just_want_the_old_myndzi_careless_of_the_board: 0.0
16:33:02 <Gregor> !bfjoust I_just_want_that_program_where_I_typod_off_as_of_off_the_board (>)*8(>[[-]])*21
16:33:09 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_I_just_want_that_program_where_I_typod_off_as_of_off_the_board: 17.5
16:33:31 <Gregor> !bfjoust I_just_want_that_program_where_I_typod_off_as_of_off_the_board <3
16:33:34 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_I_just_want_that_program_where_I_typod_off_as_of_off_the_board: 0.0
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16:46:26 <Gregor> So come on people, where's all the competition.
16:46:38 <Gregor> Although I love that FFSPG has 69 points, it's about time somebody beat it :P
16:46:52 <Gregor> ais and quintopia were both claiming they had amazing programs on the way.
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16:54:11 <iconmaster> I made a graphical BF Joust interpreter last night.
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16:55:21 <Gregor> So, like EgoJSout, but not as cool ;)
16:55:36 <quintopia> gregor: i stopped working on that to begin work on a compiler for bfjml. for which i am learning perl.
16:56:00 <iconmaster> It's slow, the graphics look bad, and you need to parse the fighters through a Lua file first!
16:56:47 <iconmaster> And the fighter parser doesn't work right all the time!
16:58:27 <Gregor> iconmaster: Sounds BEST EVER.
16:59:12 <quintopia> are the programs represented by little knights on horses with jousting poles?
16:59:34 <quintopia> and the cell values by castle turrets of various heights?
16:59:59 <iconmaster> That woulkd be a cool theme. Ill think about it...
17:00:19 <quintopia> best ever would be the cells being windmills, and the warriors having long quixote mustaches
17:01:38 <iconmaster> It's being virus scanned right now, IconJoust will be found at http://www.yoyogames.com/games/164956-iconjoust
17:04:23 <fizzie> Gregor: So I fixed those {}s, in case you didn't logread.
17:05:39 <zzo38> quintopia: And then some windmills should rotate clockwise, and others counterclockwise.
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17:06:18 <fizzie> quintopia: Seems to, though of course what happens at !bfjoust stays at !bfj... I mean, is up to Gregor.
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17:06:26 <quintopia> zzo38: the speed and direction of the blades indicates the value, rather than the size!
17:11:37 <quintopia> http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2011/02/otheros-class-action-lawsuit-geohot-sony-now-share-same-charge.ars
17:12:44 <Deewiant> What's a POSIX command for reading the first N characters from stdin to stdout
17:13:47 <fizzie> Gregor: http://git.zem.fi/chainlance/blob_plain/HEAD:/gearlance.c
17:14:03 <fizzie> Deewiant: You sound like a crossword puzzle; but head.
17:14:26 <Deewiant> -c ain't POSIX, or at least solaris head doesn't have it
17:15:49 <Ilari> Detailed breakdown: IPv4/22 to Japan, IPv4/22 to Thailand, 2xIPv4/15+IPv4/16 to China, 2xIPv4/18 to Vietnam, IPv4/18+IPv4/19 to New Caledonia, IPv4/21+IPv6/32 to Singapore, IPv4/23+IPv4/24+3xIPv6/32 to Australia, IPv4/23+IPv6/32 to Indonesia
17:16:06 <fizzie> Deewiant: dd bs=N count=1 ?
17:16:07 <pikhq> Ilari: So, what does the IPv4 pool look like right now?
17:16:34 <Gregor> Crowded, and full of latent urine and feces of inconsiderate swimmers.
17:16:48 <Ilari> APNIC pool: 2.55 plus something like 1.60 of ERX space.
17:17:14 <pikhq> Getting cramped...
17:17:28 <Ilari> (plus that 1 of reserved space)
17:17:46 <Gregor> However crowded it is, remember that an enormous section of the pool is cordoned off and reserved for IBM swimmers only :P
17:18:06 <Ilari> Don't forget HP: 3x/8(!)
17:18:06 <Deewiant> fizzie: bs=1 count=N rather (I'm not sure why but the other way around didn't work), but thanks
17:18:25 <Gregor> Ilari: Wow, HP has 3 /8s O_O
17:18:31 <Gregor> Ilari: How many does IBM have?
17:18:40 <pikhq> Gregor: By "enormous" you mean "2 weeks worth", right?
17:18:40 <Deewiant> I didn't realize that dd reads stdin, I thought it only took if/of and those would be annoying to stdin/outify portably
17:18:50 <pikhq> (presuming IBM has "only" a /8)
17:19:36 <Gregor> As far as I can tell from the list, both IBM and HP only have one ...
17:20:37 <pikhq> AT&T is undoubtedly *using* those /8s.
17:20:48 <Ilari> And IIRC, also owns some third /8 holder.
17:21:17 <pikhq> I mean, last I checked they were both an end-user ISP and tier one.
17:22:13 <Ilari> The non-RIRs that own /8s are (as marked): General Electric Company, Level 3 Communications, Inc, Army Information Systems Center, IBM, DoD Intel Information Systems, AT&T Bell Laboratories, Xerox Corporation, Hewlett-Packard Company, Digital Equipment Corporation, Apple Computer Inc.
17:22:53 <pikhq> Oh, AT&T doesn't actually own a /8, then?
17:23:03 <pikhq> (Bell Labs got spun off in '96)
17:23:29 <Gregor> 032/8AT&T Global Network Services
17:23:42 <pikhq> Okay, that'd be AT&T.
17:23:53 <Ilari> MIT, Ford Motor Company, Computer Sciences Corporation, DDN-RVN, Defense Information Systems Agency, UK Ministry of Defence, DSI-North, AT&T Global Network Services, DLA Systems Automation Center, Halliburton Company, MERIT Computer Network, PSINet, Inc., Eli Lily & Company
17:24:48 <Gregor> 047/8Bell-Northern Research is this connected to Bell Labs?
17:25:05 <Ilari> Amateur Radio Digital Communications, Bell-Northern Research, Prudential Securities Inc., UK Government Department for Work and Pensions, E.I. duPont de Nemours and Co., Inc., Cap Debis CCS, Merck and Co., Inc., DoD Network Information Center, US Postal Service, SITA.
17:25:32 <pikhq> Gregor: Bell Canada & Northern Telecom.
17:26:18 <pikhq> Gregor: So, last related to AT&T in 1956.
17:26:31 <Gregor> "UK Government Department for Work and Pensions" <-- does this REALLY need a /8?
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17:26:37 <Ilari> Hmm. Amateur radio probably hasn't corresponding allocation on IPv6 side. At least not as IANA-level allocation.
17:27:58 <pikhq> Oh, yeah, AMPRNet has 44.0.0.0/8.
17:28:37 <pikhq> Apparently allocated *in the 70s*.
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17:30:26 <Gregor> AfriNIC has six /8s. American corporations have 16.
17:33:13 <Gregor> !bfjoust rerun_the_hill <3
17:33:54 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_rerun_the_hill: 0.0
17:34:25 <pikhq> Gregor: Well, much of Africa is only now starting to not be a hellhole.
17:34:52 <Gregor> s/now/in the Very Near Future/
17:35:38 <pikhq> Gregor: By "now starting" I mean "holy shit they've got economic progress, starvation is going down, education is going up, and endemic diseases are going away."
17:36:12 <pikhq> We're really only at the start of it, but hey. Just getting progress going there is a big deal.
17:36:20 <EgoBot> Score for iconmaster_carl: 0.0
17:36:32 <Gregor> Your []s. They do not match.
17:37:19 <EgoBot> Score for iconmaster_carl: 9.1
17:39:06 <iconmaster> I'm going to run carl thru IconJoust for fun now.
17:39:24 <Gregor> iconmaster: Run FFSPG!
17:40:29 <iconmaster> Really big programs lagdeath IconJoust, sadly.
17:41:08 <Gregor> It's sounding better and better every time you mention it.
17:41:27 <iconmaster> I KNOW! Isnt IconJoust just AWFUL?!?!?!
17:43:08 <Ilari> IPv6 unicast block #0 (200x::) has apparently 926 720 /32s as IANA-unallocated.
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17:44:19 <iconmaster> I cant wait until I can show it to you in all it's apparent AFULNESS!
17:44:50 <Gregor> Hey, you're the one doing a bad job of hyping it up :P
17:45:29 <iconmaster> Lol, i'm kinda proud of it, but im not showing it...
17:45:46 <iconmaster> Lets just say i'm being.... Humble. Ya, that's it...
17:47:07 <Ilari> Only blocks #0, #64, #96, #97, #98, #128, #160 and #192 have anything (WTF is up with those blocks #97 and #98)
18:13:20 <Gregor> quintopia: We got an illustration of Philip the Careless Turtle, so are you going to draw Furry Furry Strap-on Pegging Girls?
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18:59:40 <yorick> anyone know about some *ahem* free minecraft for linux?
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19:17:19 <yorick> Phantom_Hoover: vhost broken
19:17:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, we have a channel, #esoteric-minecraft, to keep MC discussion from drowning out everything else.
19:19:00 * Sgeo takes a bucket of water and places a spring on Phantom_Hoover
19:26:58 <Phantom_Hoover> There is an article on the Star Wars wiki (which *still* hasn't moved from Wikia) about lightsaber fencing.
19:33:57 <yorick> Phantom_Hoover: why are you on the starwars wiki?
19:34:15 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not, it was just linked by the TV Tropes article on Flynning.
19:35:28 <yorick> why are you on tv tropes?
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19:49:33 -!- pingveno has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:50:08 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: What do you mean "an article"? There's 79 articles of different aspects of lightsabers, about 60 of which are about the forms, styles and techniques of combat.
19:50:40 <fizzie> All of them are rather extensive.
19:50:55 <fizzie> Just as a representative example, see http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_VII:_Juyo_/_Vaapad or something.
19:51:28 <fizzie> There is a "Lightsabers" portal-link-template-thing at the bottom for further perusal.
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19:51:59 <fizzie> If you want to know about the activation stud, blade emitter, emitter matrix, focusing lens, hilt, inert power insulator or the pommel cap of a lightsaber; all those are separate articles.
19:52:46 <Phantom_Hoover> It'd be respectable were it not for the fact that it's complete crap.
19:52:48 <fizzie> (Okay, so some are a teeny bit stub-like, like the pommel cap article.)
19:53:16 <Phantom_Hoover> I have no problem with world building if it's done *well*, but that kind of stuff is just putting the handwaving a level lower
19:53:50 <Gregor> quintopia: Can you describe bfjml a bit?
19:54:07 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Did you know: the heavy hilts of lightsabers were sometimes used as a non-fatal alternative to actually impaling someone with the glowy bit. The more you know!
19:54:35 <Phantom_Hoover> That would have been the best resolution to EVERY STAR WARS DUEL EVER
19:55:21 <Phantom_Hoover> "ssshhhmit" is the onomatopoeia for a lightsaber being turned off.
19:56:07 <fizzie> Named after Edward Shmit, the (dyslexic) first Jedi to learn how to actually turn a saber off.
19:56:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Before that they just ran around very carefully indeedd.
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20:12:01 <Gregor> fizzie: Oh btw, wtf who writes a threaded code interpreter for BF Joust. Honestly.
20:12:28 <elliott> 20:48:37 <Gregor> zzo38: The fact that I'm a longer-lasting member of #esoteric than everyone but fizzie, and yet I don't have ops (and e.g. oerjan does :P )
20:13:07 <Gregor> lifthrasiir never talks, and is nooga (note: not present) longer lasting? And dbc never talks except to point out that he exists, then disappear again for a year.
20:13:23 <elliott> Gregor: nooga is longer-lasting and unarguably a talker.
20:13:38 <elliott> We found this out the last time you went on your old trip.
20:13:42 <Sgeo> So, dbc exists more than .. Zuu?
20:13:55 <Gregor> Oh darn, and nooga doesn't have ops.
20:14:00 <Sgeo> Why am I picking on Zuu?
20:14:06 <Gregor> Now I have no title to claim :(
20:14:15 <elliott> 21:27:12 <coppro> pikhq: and also obssessed with some stupid ideas
20:14:15 <elliott> 21:27:20 <coppro> like his irrational hatred for numbers that weren't fractions
20:14:19 <elliott> afaik that's unproven myth
20:14:43 <elliott> 21:34:25 <Vorpal> <elliott> Prelude> length . words $ "[list of nicks in channel]" <-- you know, my irc client has a count already it displays in the status bar: "50 (0 ops)"
20:14:49 <elliott> i never pass up a chance to use haskell
20:14:52 * Sgeo still isn't certain that Pythagoras had anything to do with it, but the oke's still there
20:15:32 <elliott> Lymia: isn't finnish similar to japanese?
20:15:36 <elliott> re: 22:10:47 <Lymia> Are there any other languages with grammar like Japanese that arn't on the island of Japan?
20:16:06 <Gregor> Isn't Japanese its own language family ...
20:17:08 <Gregor> (Like, oh, Finnish :P )
20:17:22 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah, but IIRC it's similar to Finnish.
20:17:52 <elliott> Languages can be similar without being literally related to each other ...
20:17:54 <Deewiant> I really can't think of how Finnish would be similar to Japanese
20:17:55 <Gregor> Two isolates by coincidence have similar grammar?
20:18:04 <elliott> Deewiant: I think this info is via augur.
20:18:28 <elliott> Gregor: I think it's just the very basics that are similar :P
20:18:57 <elliott> Like both are ... whatever the equivalent of a concatenative language for natural languages is.
20:20:02 <elliott> Deewiant: So you Finns all code in Forth, right?
20:20:07 <elliott> Except without the spaces, it's all just implicit.
20:20:16 <elliott> :sayhelloworldhelloworldmessageprint;
20:20:35 <elliott> The word order of maniacs.
20:20:54 <elliott> Eats eats Sam oranges eats eats eats eats eats eats oranges.
20:21:42 <elliott> I kinda wish I spoke an agglutinative language so that concatenative languages would seem more natural to me.
20:22:11 <elliott> 22:17:25 <Sgeo> Six little eggs on the run
20:22:11 <elliott> 22:17:39 <Sgeo> They fuck each other three goes boom dubi dum
20:22:33 <Sgeo> I did not come up with that
20:23:41 <Sgeo> Seriously, Google it
20:25:25 <elliott> 22:49:47 <zzo38> Bible Quiz: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/textfile/miscellaneous/bible.quiz Can you answer these questions without refering to the Bible or to anything else?
20:25:40 <elliott> well this was... uh... unexpected in a totally expected way because it's zzo
20:25:50 <elliott> 25. Should homosexuals be killed or exiled?
20:26:16 <elliott> 22:52:12 <Sgeo> zzo38, did you copy/paste that from Skeptic's Annotated Bible?
20:26:16 <elliott> 22:52:31 <zzo38> No, but I did copy it from a related document.
20:26:16 <elliott> 22:52:46 <zzo38> However, I cleaned it a bit to fit on plain text and deleted the parts which are not necessary.
20:26:23 * elliott wonders what qualifies as "not necessary"
20:27:04 <elliott> 22:56:26 <fizzie> Gregor: If you're advocating that { should associate with the first "free" (, then sorry, the spec doesn't say so. :p
20:28:21 <fizzie> Someone (else than me) should probably write a definitive spec into the wiki at some point.
20:29:10 <Deewiant> Heraldry: the BF Joust test suite
20:29:22 <elliott> Anyway, lance has been done for days but I suppose that doesn't really matter now.
20:29:52 <Gregor> elliott: Why didn't you tell anybody :P
20:30:24 <elliott> Gregor: I did, I said it was done apart from one minor parsing bug but that I was waiting for either BF Joust activity to start up again or for you to integrate the fixed-point scoring mechanism into report.c so that you could make any changes to the codebase you needed to before integrating it.
20:30:38 <elliott> I don't think you were here at the time, though.
20:31:04 <Gregor> elliott: Upon logreading (which I don't usually do), I see that in a message to ais.
20:31:11 <Gregor> Yes, I was sure pinged to indicate its completion :P
20:31:22 <elliott> Gregor: I was under the impression that you did not logread, so I hardly see the point.
20:31:33 <elliott> (Not everybody who logreads checks pings.)
20:31:39 <elliott> Anyway, I was going to tell you when you were next on.
20:31:53 <Gregor> I check pings and PMs.
20:32:12 <Sgeo> Why does lance not matter now?
20:32:16 <Gregor> And email, postal mail, FedEx, telephone, ...
20:32:51 <Sgeo> Email transmitted across IP over Carrier Pigeon
20:33:09 <Sgeo> Well, that just counts as regular email I gess
20:33:17 <Sgeo> I gess. Yes, I gess.
20:33:24 <Sgeo> Wow, I had a tough time typing gess
20:33:28 <elliott> 02:13:22 <oerjan> probably not, exponential growth of the garbage seems likely
20:33:28 <elliott> 02:13:50 <oerjan> this is going to need an interpreter with actual structure sharing
20:33:34 <Sgeo> Makes me wonder how I managed to typeo
20:35:45 <elliott> 07:51:01 <quintopia> or that you should get a blog?
20:35:45 <elliott> 07:57:48 <Sgeo> Who'd be interested in the blog?
20:35:45 <elliott> 08:07:49 <quintopia> at least as many people as are interested in your random postings to this channel, i'm sure
20:35:49 <elliott> but that TOTALLY APPLIES TO ME TOO
20:36:04 <elliott> 08:15:32 <quintopia> must be nice having your real name as your nick on here...
20:36:19 <elliott> I'm the only Elliott on freenode!
20:36:28 <elliott> 08:29:29 * Phantom_Hoover is smug that he will never have a meaningful name clash in his life.
20:36:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Okay Adhamhamamhanhanjhnkaknahamhamnhamnmahmahnmhnamhnmahahhmmhmhhh.
20:38:11 <elliott> 09:01:38 <iconmaster> It's being virus scanned right now, IconJoust will be found at http://www.yoyogames.com/games/164956-iconjoust
20:38:11 <elliott> 09:02:03 <iconmaster> Its written in GML btw
20:38:19 <elliott> Now all 0 Windows users won't be left out, thanks iconmaster :P
20:38:31 <Gregor> BEST ARCADE GAME IDEAS: You're a bear in a zoo. An overhanging observatory, breaks and a dozen children fall into your habitat. Your goal is to eat as many children as possible before being subdued. Bonus points for eating zookeepers.
20:38:41 <elliott> 09:12:44 <Deewiant> What's a POSIX command for reading the first N characters from stdin to stdout
20:39:00 <Gregor> He already got a dd-based solution.
20:39:06 <elliott> WELL SORRY FOR BEING AS SMART AS FIZZIE
20:39:34 <fizzie> Deewiant: I still think you posed that as a crossword puzzle clue. "POSIX command for reading the first N characters, 2 letters, starts with 'd'."
20:39:39 <elliott> 09:26:31 <Gregor> "UK Government Department for Work and Pensions" <-- does this REALLY need a /8?
20:40:27 <elliott> fizzie: Cryptic version would be more like "In ways known to cause lossage, suitable to cut twice 8 bits."
20:40:40 <elliott> (I mean, dd can destroy data!)
20:40:52 <elliott> (Clearly that's how it was named.)
20:40:56 <Gregor> elliott: Y'know this is how you get right-wing nuts. You give the Department for Work and Pensions a /8, somebody thinks "Hmmm, maybe the government is too big," then BAM.
20:41:33 <elliott> fizzie: I WANT CRYPTIC PROGRAMMING CROSSWORDS NOW.
20:42:08 <elliott> 4 across: My other car ith a... (3)
20:42:55 <fizzie> Deewiant: Also from POSIX rationale for "head", by the way: "There is no -c option (as there is in tail) because it is not historical practice and because other utilities in this volume of POSIX.1-2008 provide similar functionality." ... except that it's talking about a different -c, never mind.
20:43:12 <elliott> 10:59:40 <yorick> anyone know about some *ahem* free minecraft for linux?
20:43:20 <elliott> yorick: It's available via S3, but you'll still need an account.
20:43:27 <elliott> Nonetheless Notch approves of your endeavour.
20:43:31 <fizzie> No, wait, "tail -c" is the bytes option, it was just explained really confusingly.
20:43:47 <yorick> elliott: I already found one
20:43:53 <fizzie> Gregor: Simple Storage Service.
20:43:59 <elliott> yorick: Enjoy your lack of updates.
20:44:13 <yorick> elliott: it's actually a downloader
20:44:23 <elliott> Gregor: The Amazon service from which Minecraft is served, supposedly authenticated but it gives you the files if you just, uh, neglect to provide.
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20:45:17 <elliott> Gregor: But its draconian DRM makes that a bit useless unless you have a cooperating friend who bought the game :P
20:45:22 <elliott> But still, lets you get updates.
20:46:52 <fizzie> Deewiant: Anyway, another POSIX-portable way: split -b N + keep just the first part.
20:47:33 <Deewiant> That doesn't go to stdout except via a temporary, does it
20:47:48 <fizzie> Oh, right, there was that. No, it doesn't.
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20:50:21 <Vorpal> <elliott> i never pass up a chance to use haskell <-- fair enough
20:53:46 <Vorpal> <elliott> Gregor: But its draconian DRM makes that a bit useless unless you have a cooperating friend who bought the game :P <-- uh? It isn't really draconian at all :P
20:54:10 <elliott> Vorpal: You can't play the game for the first time unless you log in to a single centralised server.
20:54:25 <elliott> You can't play the game on any (non-heavily-modified) server without the centralised server being up and authenticating you.
20:54:28 <Vorpal> elliott, oh really? the launcher should be easy to hack though
20:54:30 <elliott> That's Assassin's Creed 2 DRM.
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20:54:38 <elliott> Vorpal: Easy to hack != not draconian.
20:54:39 <Vorpal> elliott, also there is the offline mode
20:54:46 <elliott> Vorpal: That only works after you log in once.
20:54:52 <Sgeo> Vorpal, offline doesn't work unless you log in
20:54:53 <Vorpal> elliott, I meant server side
20:54:59 <elliott> Vorpal: That only lets one person log in.
20:55:03 <elliott> (They're all called "Player".)
20:55:08 <Vorpal> elliott, there are name changers that work around that
20:55:32 <Vorpal> anyway, it is still a rather cheap game
20:55:42 <elliott> That doesn't stop the DRM being draconian.
20:56:02 <elliott> If Activision or whoever did this they'd be lynched.
20:56:24 <Vorpal> elliott, it isn't draconian compared to windows product activation btw :P
20:56:28 <elliott> I mean, I'm pretty sure it's very similar DRM to Assassin's Creed 2.
20:56:32 <elliott> Vorpal: please tell me you know what activision is
20:56:40 <Vorpal> elliott, not offhand no
20:56:49 <Vorpal> some game company I think
20:57:24 <fizzie> Deewiant: Welll... od has a "take only first N bytes" option, but unfortunately POSIX doesn't seem to standardize the reverse operation, and I don't think you can get od to print character without escaping nonprintables.
20:57:33 <Vorpal> elliott, and no hardware dongle
20:57:37 <Vorpal> sure the DRM is annoying
20:57:42 <Vorpal> but there is far worse
20:57:50 <elliott> There are no games with hardware dongles.
20:58:51 <Vorpal> elliott, what about those SNES game cartridges? In a sense they were. You couldn't get any game cartridge, and program, unlikely that the co-processor would match
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20:58:58 <Vorpal> sure, stretching the definition a bit
20:59:06 <elliott> Yeah that's completely stretching the definition.
20:59:40 <Vorpal> elliott, but I'm sure you *are* aware of that consoles used cartridges to make it harder to copy. As one of the main reasons.
20:59:51 <fizzie> Deewiant: But maybe od -N <bytes> -t x1 -A n | sed -e '<list of 256 s/// expressions converting all the hex values back to bytes>', how's that sound to you?
21:00:23 <Deewiant> A bit too convoluted, perhaps.
21:00:33 <elliott> fizzie: sed -e 's/\(.\{bytes\}\).*/\1/ q'
21:01:15 <iconmaster> IconJoust has been 'Being virus scanned' all day! It usually takes about an hour. wtf?
21:01:34 <Gregor> iconmaster: It's got a lot of viruses.
21:01:34 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:01:36 <fizzie> I think the sed solution breaks for newlines, unless there's some option.
21:01:51 -!- elliott has joined.
21:01:55 <elliott> <iconmaster> IconJoust has been 'Being virus scanned' all day! It usually takes about an hour. wtf?
21:03:15 <Vorpal> windows' security model is rather terrible
21:03:19 <olsner> LOL WINDOWS; end of tape
21:03:41 <Vorpal> while the *nix one is also terrible it is at least *simple*. Result is that it is easier to reason about it.
21:03:42 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
21:04:02 <elliott> FING, STRN, SOCK, SCK, FILE...
21:04:08 <elliott> REXP (optional it seems?)...
21:04:20 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
21:04:20 <iconmaster> I think it probably is the server's problem, not mine.
21:04:22 <olsner> I don't know how simple unix really is
21:04:34 <olsner> they've added lots of stuff since to '70s
21:04:37 <Vorpal> elliott, " v 0*aa0)S+*aa20**aaa*aa" " up at the top
21:04:45 <Vorpal> elliott, that looks like it loads a fingerprint
21:05:06 <elliott> Perhaps it's in that thing thing.
21:05:37 <Vorpal> elliott, nope, not in http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot-load-freenode.b98
21:05:38 <fungot> Vorpal: which languages would he not have religious objections to java being used on the original object. this is quite funny :) nc -e fnord irc.freenode.net 6667 not fnord had some knowledge of threads... but, ok, maybe not
21:06:22 <Vorpal> elliott, it uses TOYS too
21:06:30 <elliott> $ time ~/Code/shiro/shiro mycology.b98 >/dev/null 2>&1
21:06:38 <Vorpal> 78 "reload" >51g!#^_ "SYOT"4#^( ^
21:07:01 <fizzie> SCKE isn't actually used right now. And the ) you were wondering in fact unloads that TOYS.
21:07:10 <fizzie> It still fails if SCKE isn't supported. :p
21:07:41 <elliott> fizzie: But it works without REXP?
21:07:58 <fizzie> Yes, I think it should work without.
21:08:08 <Vorpal> elliott, what do you have against REXP?
21:08:11 <fizzie> Also only the ^code command uses SUBR, so if you never use that, it's optional too.
21:08:14 <elliott> fizzie: Is that FING dependency really necessary? :P
21:08:26 <Vorpal> elliott, yes it needs to remap to get stuff to work iirc
21:08:38 <Deewiant> FING is never "necessary" as such but it's immensely convenient
21:08:40 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway FING is trivial to implement
21:08:41 <oerjan> 12:33:28 <elliott> 02:13:22 <oerjan> probably not, exponential growth of the garbage seems likely
21:08:44 <oerjan> 12:33:28 <elliott> 02:13:50 <oerjan> this is going to need an interpreter with actual structure sharing
21:08:47 <oerjan> 12:33:34 <elliott> Like, cough, ul2c.
21:08:48 <Vorpal> elliott, *utterly* trivial
21:09:00 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, but it's still extra work.
21:09:05 <elliott> I haven't touched shiro in N time intervals.
21:09:11 <Vorpal> elliott, so is SOCK. It could use netcat :P
21:09:13 <oerjan> actually the one in EgoBot worked fine, that's derlo i think
21:09:38 <elliott> oerjan: derlo does that smart stuff, yes.
21:09:47 <oerjan> unfortunately as i've bickered many times, EgoBot is useless for demonstrating programs with slow or infinite output
21:10:07 <oerjan> and this example had both
21:10:20 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway did you plan to implement all the fingerprints?
21:10:23 <elliott> oerjan: So you're saying that an efficient, convenient Underload bot would be popular with you? >:)
21:10:28 <elliott> Vorpal: Not all, that's impossible.
21:10:41 <Vorpal> elliott, cfunge never aimed to do them all
21:10:55 <elliott> oerjan: what's so heh, I was thinking that that might be botte's first calling ;D
21:10:56 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway *ccbi* does most sane (and quite a few insane) ones.
21:11:04 <Vorpal> elliott, I doubt it is impossible to do all
21:11:11 <Vorpal> elliott, rcfunge does the majority
21:11:24 <elliott> WIND for instance is incredibly unlikely. unless i can do it portably.
21:11:36 <Sgeo> How can I rail on Java's lack of lambdas when Python lambas are unadultured shit?
21:11:39 <Vorpal> elliott, but not impossible :P
21:11:50 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway you could use GTK or QT. Or even Tk
21:12:02 <elliott> Which I think has no windowing facilities.
21:12:12 <elliott> But SDL is, uh, a consistent look, feel and behaviour on every platform!!
21:12:22 <Vorpal> elliott, SDL has just GDI iirc indeed. Well input too
21:12:30 <elliott> Consistent look: "ugly" (with my skills, anyway).
21:12:35 <elliott> Consistent feel: "uncomfortable".
21:12:41 <elliott> Consistent behaviour: "unintuitive".
21:12:45 <elliott> Behold the power of ElliottSDLGUI!
21:12:58 <Vorpal> elliott, or you could just use Tk :P
21:13:01 <oerjan> elliott: (1) efficiency (2) taking code from the web (3) giving whatever output there was even if it times out. EgoBot does (1) and (2), fungot does (3).
21:13:02 <fungot> oerjan: i used a lot, but played so bad and missed so many easy goals that we felt he was a completely clueless fnord moron who has no idea
21:13:06 <elliott> Maybe I'll use wine's API functions.
21:13:11 <elliott> It has a library, doesn't it? Winelib.
21:13:20 <Vorpal> elliott, why do you need windows style!?
21:13:26 <elliott> I think WIND is just a Win32 binding.
21:13:30 <oerjan> although for _most_ things i do, (1) isn't really an issue
21:13:41 <elliott> oerjan: all of those are pretty easy
21:13:45 <fizzie> Deewiant: If you know a character, let's say Q, isn't in your input, then ... | awk 'BEGIN { RS="Q" } { print substr($0, 1, <bytes>); }' | ... *almost* does what you want, but it also produces an extra newline.
21:13:59 <elliott> Deewiant: Just thought you might know :P
21:14:05 <Vorpal> elliott, I define the fingerprint CDE.
21:14:22 <Vorpal> elliott, FING is RC but with feedback from me and Deewiant
21:14:31 <elliott> Deewiant: | sh -c 'echo -n `cat`' |
21:14:34 <Deewiant> FING was basically "yo, FNGR is messed up"
21:14:35 <Vorpal> elliott, FING is what FNGR should have been
21:14:49 <elliott> With quotes around `cat` too.
21:15:03 <elliott> fizzie: Is RS="" not portablee?
21:15:38 <elliott> Hmm, FING _shouldn't_ need any internal state...
21:15:51 <elliott> Deewiant: To make fizzie's thing not output a new newline.
21:16:01 <elliott> | sh -c 'echo -n "`cat`"' | will I think strip newlines.
21:16:10 <elliott> Of course -n might not be POSIX. :p
21:16:11 <Deewiant> % echo foobar | sh -c 'echo -n `cat`'
21:16:22 <elliott> Deewiant: WHY ARE YOU EVEN USING SUCH A SHITTY OPERATING SYSTEM
21:16:26 <elliott> Deewiant: printf "%s" "`cat`"
21:16:36 <Vorpal> Deewiant, what is that prompt
21:17:01 <elliott> Vorpal: You realise that "csh considered harmful" is only about scripting usage?
21:17:02 <olsner> surely you can tell bash to use % as the prompt
21:17:15 <Vorpal> $ echo foobar | sh -c 'echo -n `cat`'
21:17:18 <elliott> Vorpal: tcsh for interactive use is not exactly objectionable.
21:17:22 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I get a different result than you
21:17:26 <elliott> Vorpal: Your system is POSIX-incompliant.
21:17:27 <Vorpal> elliott, same for scripting
21:17:33 <Vorpal> elliott, I use bash on linux yes
21:17:37 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, same for scripting
21:17:37 <Vorpal> elliott, what do you expect?
21:17:47 <elliott> Deewiant is talking about POSIX, not Linux.
21:17:50 <Vorpal> elliott, as far as I remember tcsh has rather limited redirecting
21:18:04 <elliott> Yes, but for interactive use that rarely matters.
21:18:19 <Deewiant> r% echo foobar | printf "%s" "`cat`"
21:18:19 <Deewiant> cat: input error on standard input: I/O error
21:18:29 <elliott> Most people don't do insanely complex redirection in interactive usage.
21:18:49 <elliott> Deewiant: Why did you have to keep track of what fingerprint each instruction came from for FING?
21:18:54 <elliott> I noticed that comment in CCBI a while back.
21:19:04 <elliott> Currently I just have: fpInstructions :: Map FPIns [Shiro ()]
21:19:07 <fizzie> Deewiant: ... | od -N <bytes> -v -t x1 -A n | tr ' ' '\n' | grep -v '^$' | (while read byte; do printf "\x$byte"; done) | ...
21:19:20 <Vorpal> elliott, don't you do stuff like ... 1>&2 2>&1 | grep foo | tee ...
21:19:29 <elliott> Vorpal: No, and nor do most people.
21:19:44 <elliott> I am somehow unsurprised that this surprises you.
21:19:49 <oerjan> elliott: anyway i gave up on the ! = a(!)** idea and went back to a(*)** instead. conceptually that requires programs to leave junk on top of the stack, but much of that turns into consecutive literal (junk)a(*)** which can be removed.
21:19:52 <Vorpal> elliott, well of course most people don't
21:19:56 <Vorpal> elliott, most people run windows
21:20:01 <elliott> Most people who use shells.
21:20:04 <oerjan> see my last Underload page edits
21:20:05 <Vorpal> but I meant those who use the shell daily yes
21:20:10 <Deewiant> ... | od -N 10000 -v -t x1 -A n | tr ' ' '\n' | grep -v '^$' | (while read byte; do printf "\x$byte"; done) | wc -c
21:20:19 <Vorpal> elliott, fd manipulation is quite a common activity if you work a lot in bash
21:20:38 <Vorpal> Deewiant, what are you trying to do?
21:20:51 <fizzie> Deewiant: Should've tested on non-text files too, I guess. Not quite sure what it does wrong, though.
21:21:09 <Vorpal> Deewiant, ... why not just do head -c10000 ?
21:21:27 <Vorpal> then keep the first part
21:21:36 <fizzie> Vorpal: Already suggested, doesn't go to stdout. Anyway, "dd" works.
21:22:34 <fizzie> Deewiant: Weird: $ dd if=/dev/urandom bs=1M count=1 | od -N 10000 -v -t x1 -A n | tr ' ' '\n' | grep -v '^$' | (while read byte; do printf "\x$byte"; done) | wc -c
21:22:48 <Vorpal> Deewiant, dd if=/usr/share/dict/words of=/dev/stdout bs=1 count=10000 2>/dev/null
21:22:53 <Vorpal> that does what I expect it to
21:23:02 <Vorpal> Deewiant, you can of course use /dev/stdin
21:23:06 <elliott> So X in FING swaps the whole stacks, right?
21:23:06 <Vorpal> and I think dd is standard
21:23:13 <Deewiant> % seq 1 10000 | tr -d \\n | od -N 10000 -v -t x1 -A n | tr ' ' '\n' | grep -v '^$' | (while read byte; do printf "\x$byte"; done) | wc -c
21:23:13 <fizzie> Vorpal: dd defaults to stdin/stdout.
21:23:15 <Vorpal> elliott, pretty sure just the top
21:23:18 <Deewiant> % seq 1 10000 | tr -d \\n | dd bs=1 count=10000 2>/dev/null | wc -c
21:23:22 <elliott> Vorpal: I see no EVIDENCE.
21:23:34 <fizzie> Vorpal: And /dev/stdin might not quite be standard; not sure.
21:23:36 <Vorpal> elliott, did you try the official test suite?
21:23:47 <Vorpal> elliott, also, where does it say it should swap the whole stack?
21:24:14 <Vorpal> elliott, so as much evidence for both then
21:24:21 <fizzie> $ seq 1 10000 | tr -d \\n | od -N 10000 -v -t x1 -A n | tr ' ' '\n' | grep -v '^$' | (while read byte; do printf "\x$byte"; done) | wc -c
21:24:31 <fizzie> Maybe a locale thing. Who knows.
21:24:39 <Vorpal> locale can mess up a lot
21:24:54 <Vorpal> well at a suitable place
21:25:07 <Deewiant> LC_ALL=C doesn't change things here
21:25:18 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I'm not sure what the scope of it is
21:25:28 <Vorpal> Deewiant, try exporting it before running that line
21:25:33 <Deewiant> I think the grep isn't working
21:25:36 <Vorpal> Deewiant, anyway what is wrong with the dd-solution?
21:25:54 <Deewiant> Nothing, fizzie's just being convoluted
21:26:17 <fizzie> Deewiant: If it's the grep, you could use grep '[0-9a-f]' instead of grep -v'ing empty lines.
21:26:28 <Deewiant> It's not the grep, ggrep doesn't change things
21:26:34 <Deewiant> But there's blank-looking stuff there
21:26:39 <Vorpal> Deewiant, what OS are you on?
21:26:47 <Vorpal> Deewiant, look for tabs
21:26:56 <Vorpal> Deewiant, instead of spaces I mean
21:27:19 <Deewiant> fizzie: There's lines containing only tabs
21:27:57 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I would still suggest dd due to being simpler :P
21:27:58 <elliott> !haskell print (case 4 of { 2 -> 4 -> 42 })
21:28:03 <elliott> !haskell print (case 4 of { 2, 4 -> 42 })
21:28:13 <Vorpal> Deewiant, but what OS do you need this on?
21:28:41 <elliott> "Z will push a reflect if the source semantic stack is empty"
21:28:53 <Vorpal> Deewiant, what did you need it for?
21:28:54 <Deewiant> elliott: Hey, at least it's specced.
21:29:11 <elliott> Gah, "a -> b -> c" isn't valid case in Haskell.
21:29:11 <Vorpal> elliott, it is trivial to do so
21:29:15 <elliott> I DON'T LIKE REPEATING MAHSELF.
21:29:21 <elliott> Vorpal: It's stupid, however.
21:29:24 <Deewiant> Vorpal: I was just using head -c and tried it on this solaris system, and then wondered what the actual POSIX way is
21:29:30 <Vorpal> elliott, stop complaining about this. There are far far worse fingerprints.
21:29:32 <elliott> "Y will not reflect popping an empty semantic stack"
21:29:38 <elliott> Vorpal: I'll complain about whatever I want.
21:29:39 <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, the theory was sound, anyway! Incidentally, I tried to test your test-case on Solaris + zsh, but % seq
21:29:39 <fizzie> zsh: command not found: seq
21:30:00 <Vorpal> elliott, well you will just run out of complaining at this rate!
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21:30:14 <Deewiant> fizzie: Easily replaced with a loop, though.,
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21:30:40 <elliott> @hoogle Maybe a -> Maybe b -> Maybe (a,b)
21:30:40 <lambdabot> Data.Generics.Twins gmapAccumT :: Data d => (a -> e -> (a, e)) -> a -> d -> (a, d)
21:30:40 <lambdabot> Control.Monad.RWS.Lazy execRWST :: Monad m => RWST r w s m a -> r -> s -> m (s, w)
21:30:41 <lambdabot> Control.Monad.RWS.Strict execRWST :: Monad m => RWST r w s m a -> r -> s -> m (s, w)
21:30:48 <elliott> @hoogle (m a, m b) -> m (a,b)
21:31:03 <Deewiant> I don't know, I don't have dash or anything :-P
21:31:24 <Vorpal> Deewiant, dash fails it
21:31:33 <Vorpal> but then dash is quite bad in general
21:32:35 <Vorpal> elliott, as an interactive shell it is
21:32:57 <Vorpal> \[\033[01;32m\]\u@\h\[\033[01;34m\] \w $\[\033[00m\] echo {1..10}
21:33:00 <Vorpal> that fails quite a bit
21:33:10 <lambdabot> forall a k. (Ord k) => (a -> a) -> k -> M.Map k a -> M.Map k a
21:33:25 <Vorpal> elliott, uh even the literal \u \h and \w bit?
21:33:35 <Vorpal> elliott, how would then PS1 be useful for anything at all
21:33:56 <Vorpal> useless. I would get lost without a path
21:34:03 <elliott> Not useless, just not up to your high standards.
21:34:05 <lambdabot> forall b a. b -> (a -> b) -> Maybe a -> b
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21:35:05 <elliott> Deewiant: Are there any "pre-built" Fungicide benchmarks out there? :P
21:35:33 <elliott> Deewiant: As in not in .bre form. I suppose .sh and .pl are acceptable here :P
21:36:00 <Deewiant> .bre has an expander somewhere there, it's my own Fungicide-only file format
21:36:11 <Deewiant> IIRC it's short for "begin, repeat, end"
21:36:35 <oerjan> <elliott> @hoogle Maybe a -> Maybe b -> Maybe (a,b) <-- liftM2 (,)
21:38:15 <Vorpal> elliott, done FING yet?
21:38:33 <Vorpal> elliott, is that why you wanted a -> b -> c above?
21:39:01 <elliott> Although I suppose I never actually have Just [].
21:39:16 <Vorpal> elliott, I can't get a -> b -> c to make sense :P
21:39:30 <elliott> Vorpal: case x of {a -> b -> c} === case x of {a -> c; b -> c}
21:39:57 <Vorpal> elliott, where c is a fixed value?
21:40:22 <elliott> Nothing -> Just [] -> reflect
21:40:35 <elliott> Just like "case x: case y:" in C.
21:40:36 <Vorpal> elliott, it would work if you had a -> b -> <specific type here> right ?
21:40:53 <Vorpal> elliott, that is why it made no sense then XD
21:45:08 <elliott> oerjan: Anyway, I'll see about writing a super smart interpreter for botte.
21:47:23 <lambdabot> forall a k. (Ord k) => (a -> a) -> k -> M.Map k a -> M.Map k a
21:47:30 <lambdabot> forall a k. (Ord k) => (Maybe a -> Maybe a) -> k -> M.Map k a -> M.Map k a
21:47:54 <elliott> oerjan: I think Underload might be my new favourite esolang
21:48:02 <oerjan> :t Control.ParserCombinators.parser
21:48:10 <oerjan> :t Control.ParserCombinators.Parsec.parser
21:48:13 <elliott> oerjan: you might want Text.Parsec., for parsec 3
21:48:43 <oerjan> anyway i was just looking it up as an example
21:49:16 <oerjan> i noticed result for Data.Map gave the M. which you can use as abbreviation in lambdabot
21:52:41 <elliott> oerjan: quick, write (a -> Maybe [a] -> a) (acting like head for the Just (:) case)
21:53:15 <lambdabot> forall a. Maybe ([a] -> a) -> [a] -> a
21:54:03 <elliott> @hoogle (a -> b) -> (a,a) -> (b,b)
21:54:03 <lambdabot> Data.Graph.Inductive.Query.Monad (><) :: (a -> b) -> (c -> d) -> (a, c) -> (b, d)
21:54:03 <lambdabot> Data.Graph.Inductive.Query.Monad mapSnd :: (a -> b) -> (c, a) -> (c, b)
21:54:03 <lambdabot> Data.Graph.Inductive.Query.Monad mapFst :: (a -> b) -> (a, c) -> (b, c)
21:54:06 <elliott> I think that's some Arrow function
21:54:09 <elliott> or wait, is it Deewiant's both :D
21:54:17 <elliott> oerjan: er no that doesn't work
21:54:20 <elliott> oerjan: because it can be Just []
21:54:20 <lambdabot> forall (a :: * -> * -> *) b c. (Arrow a) => a b c -> a (b, b) (c, c)
21:55:02 <elliott> :t \default x -> case fromMaybe [] x of y:_ -> y; [] -> default
21:55:03 <oerjan> elliott: you _said_ to work like head
22:04:25 <elliott> Ooh, I didn't notice this REPLY TO A REDDIT COMMENT OF MINE by the ESTEEMED SCHOLAR "hockeydude123": "yeah lick my ass bitch. java is awesome and its easy. c++ has a retarded compilation system and python is for children."
22:05:05 <elliott> and python is for children.
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22:07:03 <oerjan> wow what big f you've got
22:07:21 <elliott> totally accidental of course
22:07:26 <elliott> i could do the rest of the word but
22:07:56 <elliott> oerjan: do any underload programs (that you know of) combine two non-church numerals to form a church numeral?
22:08:10 <elliott> or do all church numeral computations start with a church numeral literal in the source? :P
22:08:13 <oerjan> what's a non-church numeral?
22:08:26 <elliott> oerjan: (!!^^!^!) isn't a church numeral for instance :P
22:08:42 <elliott> ({:^n}{*^n}), but also accounting for (:*:*) and the like, basically.
22:08:46 <oerjan> indeed, that's a list of case lookups
22:09:35 <oerjan> let me check the examples list
22:09:59 <elliott> oerjan: i have a feeling that the functions which essentially "construct" their own church numerals might fail like this though. so actually i should try to convert to church numeral on every operation.
22:10:20 <elliott> oerjan: amusingly underload's church numerals have optimal complexity for at least multiplication and exponentiation
22:10:38 <elliott> it's just that the only programs you can actually run, would work better with O(1) fixed-size arithmetic :P
22:10:43 <elliott> (good luck constructing 2^64 in Underload)
22:10:49 <oerjan> well they can be encoded as binary
22:10:57 <elliott> oerjan: that's just a multiplicative constant :)
22:11:15 <oerjan> but are unary to use yeah
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22:12:26 <elliott> oerjan: it would be interesting to see _real_ church numerals in underload.
22:13:08 <elliott> onto a normal underload numeral
22:15:01 <elliott> oerjan: what is it with underload's frighteningly good economy of expression :)
22:18:54 <oerjan> i don't think there are any of the programs that convert from something else to a church numeral, unless that something else is something temporary originally coming from another church numeral
22:19:16 <oerjan> actually i'm not sure they even do that
22:20:16 * elliott tries to come up with a name
22:20:17 <oerjan> actually of the wiki examples, only the look-and-say sequence does anything resembling arithmetic on church numerals
22:20:35 <elliott> (opposites of synonyms for overload)
22:20:53 <oerjan> and it's really just an equality check, which passes through a temporary representation
22:21:23 <elliott> oerjan: I NEED SUGGESTIONS HERE
22:22:48 <oerjan> (when prefixed with "sensory")
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22:23:51 <oerjan> oh well naturally some use a little bit of arithmetic to construct their church numerals in the first place
22:24:56 <elliott> oerjan: hm do you think it's acceptable if the program ((abc)Shello)^ fails immediately without outputting anything? I'm thinking that I could store invalid programs as strings
22:26:00 <oerjan> no i don't think so, i sometimes append a comment to a program
22:26:18 <oerjan> you are free to use a string from the h _on_, of course
22:26:29 <elliott> oerjan: what if i stripped just comments at the end of a whole program :-D
22:26:41 <elliott> or, well, replaced with invalidness
22:27:05 <elliott> hm I suppose that storing it as a string isn't really faster...
22:27:36 <oerjan> the speed of immediately crashing is rarely a bottleneck, i think
22:28:53 <elliott> oerjan: we should call numbers Smith numbers or something since they're not really Church
22:29:58 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brunstad_Christian_Church
22:30:23 <elliott> let's call them brunstads.
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22:31:35 <elliott> oerjan: i wonder what ais's "lazy concatenation" actually is, anyone have a derlo source lin?
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22:32:50 <elliott> hm I should probably use a non-list stack structure :)
22:33:16 <oerjan> (btw that link was because of their unofficial name "Smith's friends")
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22:37:34 <elliott> oerjan: aargh, I can't do church in the "naive" way
22:37:41 <elliott> because the string repr. could have useless junk
22:37:44 <elliott> so i have to keep that around too...
22:38:26 * oerjan doesn't understand the problem
22:38:33 <elliott> I can't have (Church Int) as a constructor
22:38:42 <elliott> and it won't always be {:^n}{*^n}
22:40:01 <oerjan> perhaps you could have an efficient representation for a string repeated
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22:40:15 <elliott> oerjan: that might help. I'll consider it.
22:41:33 <oerjan> an underload element sort of needs two different data parts, for the program and string
22:41:49 <elliott> *Main> one Cat [Church 42 "blah", Church 24 "blah2"]
22:41:49 <elliott> ([Church 1008 "blah2blah"],"")
22:44:48 <oerjan> hm i guess haskell laziness makes it less necessary to use such a representation
22:44:49 <elliott> oerjan: annoyingly i have to use slow Integer whenever you do * or ^ on numbers
22:44:58 <elliott> I suppose I could just use Integer always
22:45:32 <elliott> oerjan: oh _dear_ writing Eq for Obj is going to be a pain :) ... are you sure that repeated thing is feasible :P
22:46:35 <oerjan> what do you need Eq for
22:47:07 <Gregor> Why isn't there a 24-hour Seinfeld channel.
22:47:09 <elliott> oerjan: for ADVANCED CONCATENATION
22:47:14 <elliott> Gregor: It's called the internets.
22:47:24 <Gregor> Why isn't there a legal 24-hour Seinfeld channel.
22:47:41 <Gregor> I suppose I could buy the DVDs X-P
22:47:48 <Gregor> Then play those on loop for eternity.
22:49:20 <lambdabot> Data.List drop :: Int -> [a] -> [a]
22:49:26 <elliott> Gregor: Who cares about legality.
22:50:41 <oerjan> elliott: SURE SO HE DOESN'T WANT TO STEAL FROM SEINFELD, OF COURSE
22:50:59 <elliott> WELL THAT EXPLAINS EVERY...NOTHING
22:51:21 <oerjan> elliott: i think you may want concat (replicate ..)
22:51:41 <elliott> haskell would be better if all the standard functions had one-symbol names.
22:51:44 <elliott> well or at least more convenient.
22:52:22 <elliott> obviously :. makes a lot of dots into one dot
22:52:29 <elliott> except it'd actually be join
22:52:39 <elliott> and ** is obviously * but different.
22:52:46 <elliott> (^^ would be more mathematician-pleasing)
22:52:55 <elliott> now make symbol calls associate right by default
22:53:25 <elliott> also replicate would be genericReplicate instead of STUPID_RETARDED_INT_ONLY_REPLICATE like it is now.
22:53:57 <oerjan> I ASSUME THAT'S THE ACTUAL C SYMBOL IN THE CODE
22:54:34 <elliott> oerjan: hm if you do (n1)(n2)^ where those are church numerals, what's the resulting _string_?
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22:55:26 <oerjan> that's the precise use case i suggested a repeated string representation for, anyway
22:55:39 <oerjan> well i guess it's useful for any (x)n
22:55:46 <elliott> *Main> run [Call] [Church 42 "blah", Church 24 "blah2"]
22:55:46 <elliott> ([Church 907784931546351634835748413459499319296 "blah2blah2blah2blah2blah2blah2blah2blah2blah2blah2blah2blah2blah2blah2blah2blah2blah2blah2blah2blah2blah2blah2blah2blah2blah2blah2blah2blah2blah2blah2blah2blah2blah2blah2blah2blah2blah2blah2blah2blah2blah2blah2"],"")
22:55:51 -!- Gregor has set topic: The Internet's #0 Tay Zonday fan club! | Also the Internet's #3 Zon Tayday fan club | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
22:55:54 <elliott> oerjan: oh, really? i just use that for
22:56:00 <elliott> call (Church n _) (x:xs) = (Rept n x : xs, "")
22:56:06 <elliott> the actual _strings_ i don't optimise, 'cuz who would optimise those
22:56:17 <elliott> output SHOULD be slow, it's impure!
22:56:25 <oerjan> elliott: well you _could_ get a memory leak
22:56:59 <elliott> now i just need a parser that can recognise church numerals :(
22:57:03 <oerjan> if you printed a long string and kept it around
22:57:09 <elliott> gah, haskell needs two-way functions :D
22:57:15 <elliott> strOp (Push x) = '(' : str x ++ ")"
22:57:23 <elliott> i just wanna replace = with <-> you know
22:57:25 <elliott> except without the invalid clause
22:58:12 <oerjan> well all but to of those _could_ be done with an [(Obj, String)]
22:58:24 <oerjan> (require your Eq again though)
22:58:36 <oerjan> I SWEAR MY KEYBOARD IS BROKEN
22:58:42 <oerjan> or possibly my fingers
23:00:25 <oerjan> elliott: i vaguely recall seeing something about bidirectional parsers discussed somewhere
23:00:46 <oerjan> or possibly it was bidirectional conversion between datatypes
23:00:49 <elliott> yes we mentioned them in here recently.
23:00:59 <oerjan> no, the recall is not recent
23:01:04 <elliott> i was under the impression that they were impossible to make harder about, they weren't applicatives or something i think
23:01:07 <elliott> but there's this new paper on LtU
23:01:12 <oerjan> i think it may have been from when i read LtU
23:01:19 <oerjan> but that was years ago
23:01:29 <elliott> ltu is one of the last havens!
23:01:37 <oerjan> somehow has slipped off my list
23:03:08 <elliott> I AM DOING THIS FOR YOU :|
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23:04:52 <elliott> "No instance for (Stream s m Char)" wtf
23:05:08 <elliott> just needed a type signature
23:15:33 <variable> https://twitter.com/#!/SecureTips -> this is great :-\
23:17:57 <elliott> heh is that a dig at the tarsnap bug? :)
23:18:36 <elliott> "@SecureTips Sigh..." --cperciva
23:18:39 <elliott> he must be rather sick of hearing it by now :D
23:19:03 <elliott> oerjan: i have a parser that handles ({:^n}{*^n}) church numerals now
23:19:16 <elliott> oerjan: :*:* will be more irritating to do, especially if I handle e.g. (foo:*:*:*bar)
23:19:31 <variable> elliott: I've followed --cperciva for a while - but just found @SecureTips through him
23:19:49 <elliott> "--cperciva", hmm, i sense a business opportunity for twitter
23:19:51 <elliott> buy your own account prefix!
23:22:20 <elliott> oerjan: but anyhow, this should be a decent interpreter.
23:22:31 <elliott> oerjan: i suspect it's likely slower in raw performance thanks to laziness
23:22:43 <elliott> oh, and I don't have an implementation for calling the result of a church numeral exponentiation
23:22:51 <elliott> (i.e. (nonchurch)(church)^)
23:23:38 * oerjan has an ice coffee cappuccino
23:24:15 <elliott> what's 0 in church numerals again?
23:24:35 <elliott> (whoops, think I have an off-by-one)
23:24:54 * iconmaster is finding making the regex for BFJoust ()* constructs is difficult to make without the \bxy thing.
23:24:57 <elliott> oh and i don't parse (!()) as a numeral of course
23:25:02 <elliott> iconmaster: don't replace them beforehand.
23:25:05 <elliott> that causes severe issues.
23:25:37 <oerjan> numeral := numeral numeral | : numeral * | | !()
23:25:46 <oerjan> that should cover the most important ones, no?
23:26:08 <elliott> oerjan: well yes. feel free to write the [Op] -> Maybe Integer for that
23:26:20 <oerjan> ...i suppose you don't want that | | directly in there
23:26:20 <elliott> (Dup, Cat, Drop, and Push (Quote []) are the relevant things there)
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23:26:58 <elliott> <elliott> oerjan: well yes. feel free to write the [Op] -> Maybe Integer for that
23:27:00 <elliott> <oerjan> ...i suppose you don't want that | | directly in there
23:27:02 <elliott> <elliott> (Dup, Cat, Drop, and Push (Quote []) are the relevant things there)
23:27:18 <oerjan> elliott: erm i'd imagine [Op] -> [Op] might be better, then you can apply it to concatenations
23:27:25 <Gregor> I think my soda needs gum arabic.
23:27:28 <elliott> oerjan: it's done at parse-time
23:27:35 <elliott> Just n -> Church n (Quote q)
23:27:35 <elliott> Nothing -> Quote q -- be dumb for now
23:27:44 <elliott> so there are no concatenations
23:27:49 <elliott> it's just to recognise a literal
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23:28:13 <oerjan> elliott: well you would also want to recognize applying something like (:)~(*)**
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23:28:59 <elliott> <oerjan> elliott: well you would also want to recognize applying something like (:)~(*)**
23:29:04 <elliott> oerjan: yes, i would, but right now i don't
23:29:16 <elliott> oerjan: anyway i can easily port it, i just don't feel like writing it myself >:D
23:29:20 <elliott> you might also want to handle :!
23:29:45 <Sgeo> elliott, is lack of decent lambdas a valid reason to dislike a language?
23:30:21 <Sgeo> I'm starting to feel ill when I think of Python's not so well equipped lambda keyword, and no other anonymous functions
23:30:21 <elliott> Gregor: Thank you for handling today's Sgeo self-validating-question of the day.
23:30:28 <elliott> Or today's day of the day. Of the day.
23:30:55 <Sgeo> On a related note, Facebook thinks I'm gay.
23:31:51 <elliott> 15:30:21 <Sgeo> I'm starting to feel ill when I think of Python's not so well equipped lambda keyword, and no other anonymous functions
23:32:03 <elliott> Either Sgeo has no idea what ill means, or has serious issues.
23:32:09 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: WHERE DID YOU COME FROM
23:32:27 <Sgeo> elliott, or I use words weirdly somewhens.
23:32:42 <elliott> we're over our finn quota.
23:32:53 <Zwaarddijk> you should've had time to react already
23:33:01 <oerjan> Zwaarddijk cannot be a finn, no finn could pronounce that.
23:33:27 <Zwaarddijk> well, I belong to this quaint thing we have in Europe
23:33:39 <oerjan> Zwaarddijk: we rarely react to non-speaking lurkers here
23:33:52 <elliott> "ethnical", YOU ALSO BELONG TO THE NON-ENGLISH-SPEAKING MINORITY TOO</horrible and offensive>
23:33:56 <elliott> oerjan: i may have interrogated him before
23:34:11 <oerjan> elliott: ok. that may explain why he prefers to be silent.
23:34:19 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
23:34:29 <Zwaarddijk> anyways, uh, ... sure, I will maybe sort of butt in on occasion
23:34:37 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: i think the patriotic hate oerjan has for you may surpass all previous known hates.
23:34:42 <elliott> (note: oerjan not known to possess patriotic hate)
23:34:58 <oerjan> very well-hidden secret, that.
23:34:59 <Zwaarddijk> I'm not really so much into esoteric languages (except intercal and some other classic ones)
23:35:20 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: surely you like underload.
23:35:22 <Zwaarddijk> but ... uh, I'm sort of catching up on complexity theory currently
23:35:31 <elliott> to be honest we hate most esolangs too :D
23:35:43 <elliott> although most of /my/ hate is reserved for brainfuck derivatives.
23:35:48 <elliott> anything is better than another brainfuck derivative.
23:36:04 <pikhq> Hooray, really-overdone-concepts.
23:36:25 <pikhq> Not that I'm one to talk — I've got a Brainfuck derivative to my name, after all.
23:36:32 <elliott> YEAH, AND WE'RE GOING TO KILL YOU ONE OF THESE DAYS
23:36:45 <elliott> all in favour say aye. or nay.
23:36:51 <Zwaarddijk> I would like to make a lang some day with comefrom, where comefrom mostly takes variables corresponding to line numbers
23:36:58 <oerjan> dammit now my mind ponders what kind of brainfuck derivative elliott would _not_ hate. it suggests continuations.
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23:37:21 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: that's computed come from, I think.
23:37:30 <elliott> oerjan: heck /I/ have a brainfuck derivative to my name. it's boring
23:37:40 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: (computed come from = intercal extension)
23:37:43 <elliott> oerjan: actually pikhq's dimensifuck is quite nice.
23:38:08 <Zwaarddijk> but it's just, as we say in Swedish, getting my thumb out of my butt and getting around to writing it that's the problem
23:38:23 <elliott> do swedes spend a majority of their time with their thumbs in their butts?
23:38:26 <elliott> interesting. oerjan: take notes.
23:38:37 <Zwaarddijk> I figure the kind of swedes that live in sweden really do?
23:38:42 <oerjan> elliott: actually it's a norwegian expression too
23:38:51 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: yeah you're a fake swede
23:38:57 <elliott> oerjan: DON'T LET THAT GET IN THE WAY OF AN ANTI-SWEDISH JOKE
23:39:06 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: as fake as Linus Torvalds.
23:39:24 <pikhq> My Norwegian heritage is forcing me to take notes as well. And the Englishman in me disapproves, as this is not tea.
23:39:44 <Zwaarddijk> yeah, well, Finlandsswede is kind of awkwardly big
23:39:46 <elliott> oerjan: WRITTEN THE FUNCTION YET
23:39:49 <Gregor> <Zwaarddijk> so I'm basically this kind of Swede. <Zwaarddijk> in Finland. // So you're Linus Torvalds!
23:39:55 <elliott> Gregor: ALREADY DID THAT ONE
23:40:11 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: so how do you pronounce your name. "john"?
23:40:23 <pikhq> Gregor: Torvalds is now an American, anyways.
23:40:32 <elliott> Zw -- j; aar -- o; ddijk -- i got nothin'
23:40:39 <Gregor> pikhq: "American" is boring
23:40:53 <Zwaarddijk> it's really a translation-by-cognate (instead of translation-by-meaning) of my Finnish surname into Dutch ...
23:41:00 <Zwaarddijk> dunno why I use it, I guess it looks cool?
23:41:07 <elliott> to pose as a dane, obviously
23:41:22 <Zwaarddijk> anyways, uh, I actually have the papers somewhere on how I'm related to Linus Torvalds
23:41:47 <oerjan> ah that's nice i can create an empty haskell script while _in_ winghci's loading menu
23:41:47 <pikhq> Zwaarddijk: Eh, everyone native to Europe is probably interrelated by now.
23:41:57 <Zwaarddijk> a friend of mine that studied how everyone in my village is related to each other and to the rest of us Swedish Finns picked him to demonstrate how far his records go
23:42:10 <Zwaarddijk> the closest "even" cousinhood is like ... a shared ancestor 12 generations back
23:42:12 <elliott> oerjan: the height of modern convenience!
23:42:24 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: so basically you're DIRTY DIRTY INBREEDERS.
23:42:24 <pikhq> If nothing else, there's Attila as a common ancestor for, oh, almost everyone.
23:42:26 <Zwaarddijk> but there's common ancestors way closer.
23:42:31 <elliott> in britain we relegate all the inbreeding to the one family nobody cares about
23:42:55 <oerjan> elliott: i had been annoyed by how i needed to create the file outside win{hugs,ghci} before
23:42:57 <Zwaarddijk> even looking at the girls there cause inbreeding
23:43:18 <elliott> `addquote <Zwaarddijk> yeah well <Zwaarddijk> I am from a village in an archipelago <Zwaarddijk> even looking at the girls there cause inbreeding
23:43:24 <pikhq> elliott: Here in America, inbreeding is a family pastime!
23:43:24 <Zwaarddijk> anyone whose partner is from the same archipelago is playing russian rulette with genetics
23:43:29 <pikhq> (more so historically)
23:43:57 <elliott> oerjan: WRITTEN CHURCH YET
23:44:06 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: THAT EXPLAINS YOUR SIMPLISTIC SWEDISH MIND
23:44:21 <HackEgo> 319) <Zwaarddijk> yeah well <Zwaarddijk> I am from a village in an archipelago <Zwaarddijk> even looking at the girls there cause inbreeding
23:44:52 <pikhq> Zwaarddijk: You know full well that you're seriously going to have a familiar relation with just about everyone on the continent by now, anyways.
23:45:07 <elliott> one of these days oerjan will ban me and the channel will be peaceful.
23:45:16 <Gregor> HINT: You have a familial relation with every tree in Europe.
23:45:19 <Gregor> Also, every other tree.
23:45:21 <Gregor> Also, every other living thing.
23:45:36 <Zwaarddijk> but, uhm, I prefer girls for whom the sum of the ways we're related isn't so much equivalent to being siblings
23:45:40 <pikhq> Gregor: Okay, if we go far back enough, yes.
23:45:50 <Zwaarddijk> that's why I've moved far away from that archipelago
23:45:51 <elliott> Gregor: Wait, wasn't Adam kinda romping around with his daughter.
23:45:54 <elliott> His... rib's... daughter...
23:46:09 <Gregor> elliott: Naw, Adam just fucked a tree.
23:46:14 <Gregor> elliott: Hence the relation.
23:46:14 <elliott> I THINK THIS MAKES GENESIS MUCH BETTER GUYS
23:46:25 <elliott> (Not directed, not acyclic)
23:46:29 <pikhq> elliott: Technically not the rib. Most likely the baculum.
23:46:48 <elliott> THAT BASTARD DEPRIVED US OF BACULA
23:46:57 <pikhq> (which humans are unique among primates for lacking)
23:47:06 <elliott> [["...a rib..." (Genesis 2:21–24) - Hebrew tsela` can mean side, chamber, rib, or beam. The traditional reading of "rib" has been questioned recently by feminist theologians who suggest it should instead be rendered as "side," supporting the idea that woman is man's equal and not his subordinate.[4] Others have suggested that the "rib" was in fact the baculum. This suggestion is consistent with the observations that men and women have the same
23:47:06 <elliott> number of ribs, and humans (unlike most mammals) lack a baculum.[5]]]
23:47:11 <elliott> pikhq: I find that reasoning unlikely.
23:47:24 <elliott> "Obviously the authors of the Bible would never get any SCIENCE wrong, so clearly they meant baculum since the rib stuff is false."
23:47:50 <pikhq> elliott: I'm pretty sure the ancient Jews would have at least noticed that most other animals have one.
23:48:04 <elliott> But it makes the term "boner" TOTALLY MISLEADING
23:48:21 <Zwaarddijk> otoh, it's possible I'll regret that the day my juvenile diabetes deprives me of virility
23:48:39 <elliott> I like the idea of diabetes being really juvenile.
23:48:50 <pikhq> Zwaarddijk: Hooray, selecting for capability to have high blood pressure.
23:49:40 <Zwaarddijk> what the fuck is up with linear programming being in P
23:49:42 <elliott> ask oerjan, he's the only one who actually knows anything here ;D
23:49:56 <Zwaarddijk> so we use an exponential solution instead
23:50:11 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: today you learned that P does not mean fast.
23:50:32 <pikhq> Though NP does mean slow. :P
23:50:35 <Zwaarddijk> it's weird that the solution in P on average
23:50:47 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: surely it's better for large enough inputs
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23:51:16 <elliott> is it like n^1.0000000000001? :P
23:51:35 <Zwaarddijk> normally, P, NP etc tell us of worst case things
23:51:37 <pikhq> n^-1 is exponential, y'know.
23:52:01 <elliott> best exponential algorithm ever
23:52:14 <elliott> I thought you meant exponential average case
23:52:16 <pikhq> "Give it more input, we need it to go faster!"
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23:52:33 <elliott> pikhq: like PH's hawking thing
23:53:09 <Zwaarddijk> that reasonably solvable => in P, even tho it doesn't mean that the reasonable solution is in P
23:54:10 <pikhq> 50-to-life is considered "not cruel and unusual punishment" for shoplifting.
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23:54:45 <Zwaarddijk> pikhq: did you read of that judge who sentenced a 17-yo to 3 months in a correctional facility for being friends with a shoplifter?
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23:55:21 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: ouch, what country
23:55:28 <pikhq> Almost certainly the US.
23:56:03 <pikhq> Because "tough on crime" means "so tough that we create criminals".
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23:56:08 <Zwaarddijk> http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/112308/20110214/kids-for-cash-trial-former-pa-judge-ciavarella-claims-money-was-finder-s-fee.htm
23:56:14 <Gregor> Did you ever read the news story about the country that is so major in international affairs that anything bad that happens there gets projected into world news, thereby making it look much worse than it actually is?
23:56:21 <Zwaarddijk> there's a not as well written, but quicker article here:
23:56:25 -!- elliott has joined.
23:56:34 <Zwaarddijk> http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gkvHQieDR9euNIulBy-6HrNpOjLQ?docId=863f02b89f824c0296cdbbcf8a539bbf
23:56:45 <Zwaarddijk> he's been bought by the company that owns the prisons
23:56:48 <elliott> <elliott> well WHO LIVES THERE ANYWAY
23:56:56 <pikhq> Gregor: It's actually pretty well-estabilished that our penal system is significantly out of whack.
23:56:57 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: yay capitalism!
23:56:58 <Zwaarddijk> 1500-2000 sentences where the kids did not get
23:57:09 <Zwaarddijk> the legal advisor that they're entitled to
23:57:17 <elliott> 15:56:14 <Gregor> Did you ever read the news story about the country that is so major in international affairs that anything bad that happens there gets projected into world news, thereby making it look much worse than it actually is?
23:57:24 <elliott> Gregor: :bitter American refuses to admit his country is shit:
23:58:02 <pikhq> Gregor: We give significantly longer sentences for crimes, have a prison system that has a very high redactivism rate, and we're one of a handful of countries to allow the death penalty at all.
23:58:15 <pikhq> Gregor: Also, we have private. Fucking. Prisons.
23:58:22 <oerjan> Zwaarddijk: "For every polynomial algorithm you have, I have an exponential algorithm that I would rather run." -- Alan Perlis
23:58:27 <Gregor> Private fucking prisons? Best kind of prison!
23:58:38 <pikhq> And at least some documented cases of judges getting kickbacks for sending people to them.
23:58:40 <oerjan> (via http://rjlipton.wordpress.com/2009/07/03/is-pnp-an-ill-posed-problem/)
23:58:52 <elliott> Best kind of fucking prison!
23:58:57 <elliott> The public ones just don't give you any privacy.
23:59:05 <pikhq> elliott: No no no, the public ones are an orgy.
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