00:04:27 <coppro> what's the LaTeX for the irrational numbers?
00:06:01 * oerjan cannot quite recall a frequent single symbol for those
00:06:34 <Ilari> Contrasting to last years, how soon would that amount be used: 2010: July 1st. 2009: August 20th. 2008: August 5th. 2007: September 2nd. 2006: Would last entiere year.
00:10:04 <Ilari> We aren't even out of 1Q2011 and already APNIC has used more addresses than the entiere 1H2010 (and that year was pretty crazy there).
00:12:47 <Ilari> Old saying was that APNIC uses up a block in 6 weeks. The rate now is block in 3 weeks.
00:15:20 <Ilari> At this rate, the depletion would be end of April, begnning of May. And the rate might very well be underestimated.
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03:21:35 <pikhq> The US national motto is "In God we trust".
03:22:19 <pikhq> Source, 36 U.S.C. § 302.
03:22:47 <pikhq> Any opinions on how that can possibly be anything *but* a law respecting the estabilishment of religion?
03:23:05 <pikhq> http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/36/302.html
03:23:41 <zzo38> I think it is simply a law of the motto. The reason for such motto would be becasuse the people who made up that law are religious.
03:24:02 <pikhq> Except that they are forbidden from doing such by a higher law.
03:24:52 <pikhq> Also pretty shameful, when it could have been E PLVRIBVS VNVM.
03:24:55 <Sgeo> pikhq, do you think wikisuperosity.com 's new policy is draconian?
03:25:26 <Sgeo> It's difficult for genuine new users to join
03:25:27 <zzo38> pikhq: I do not live in United States.
03:26:07 <pikhq> zzo38: 1st Amendment to the Consitutition of the United States.
03:26:30 <zzo38> What is the first amendment?
03:26:52 <pikhq> "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
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03:30:23 <zzo38> I can see it is respecting the estabilishment of religion, but it does not prohibit free exercise, free speech, etc. There are other laws to prohibit the other things. I, howver, do not consider such motto law to be serious wrong thing because it is simply the motto and does nothing else.
03:30:42 <zzo38> As long as you are free to not use it, it is OK.
03:30:50 <pikhq> It's on all of our currency.
03:31:28 <pikhq> And religious people use it as justification for this being a "Christian" nation.
03:31:47 <zzo38> Yes I have seen United States money, it is on there. However there are other problems with the United States currency, too, such as the ten cent coin saying "one dime" instead of "ten cents" (Canadian coins do say the amount of cents/dollars).
03:32:33 <zzo38> pikhq: They would have to make some statutory holidays based on some things of Christian, but then they should not call them Christian holidays in that context.
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03:33:52 <pikhq> zzo38: The only federal holiday which could be *considered* Christian is Christmas. Which, as you well know, is more a secular celebration and has been well into antiquity.
03:34:10 <zzo38> Yes I do know that, too.
03:34:34 <zzo38> In Canada we have other statutory holidays based on Christian too, not only Christmas.
03:34:36 <pikhq> Not to mention that the only thing that being a "federal holiday" means is that most federal employees get the day off.
03:35:03 <pikhq> Yes, but Canada is nominally ruled by a monarch with power bestowed by God.
03:35:04 <zzo38> Still, we should do the same, that you should not consider them Christian; just say they fall on these days
03:35:46 <zzo38> Yes I also know Canada has the queen, although the queen is really the queen of England and Canada is no longer ruled directly by the queen anyways
03:36:46 <zzo38> However is probably better to have both queen/king and government in case one does bad thing, the other side can argue to them
03:37:18 <pikhq> Nevertheless, all power in your state comes, in name, from Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith.
03:37:35 <pikhq> Whereas here, all power in the states comes from the just consent of the governed.
03:38:17 <zzo38> OK, that is their title, I did not know that. I think somewhere I read an even longer title for the queen...
03:38:40 <pikhq> That is merely the title for her in her role as Queen of Canada.
03:39:26 <pikhq> She possesses an *extremely* long list of titles.
03:40:38 <elliott> `addquote <zzo38> However is probably better to have both queen/king and government in case one does bad thing, the other side can argue to them
03:40:58 <elliott> <pikhq> Whereas here, all power in the states comes from the just consent of the governed.
03:41:19 <elliott> *comes from the monopoly on force.
03:41:33 <elliott> Do *you* consent to be governed by the current administration?
03:41:39 <pikhq> elliott: I am discussing the legal theory under which it operates, not the realities.
03:41:58 <pikhq> She is Queen of 14 states, Duke of Normandy, Lord of Mann, member of every order of the various commonwealth realms, an insane number of foreign honors, a number of hard-earned degrees and military awards.
03:42:10 <zzo38> In the past they would have had to do it with God and religious stuff, in these days it is not necessary but the titles are kept because of tradition; still we can have separation of church and state without having to adjust these titles as long as you still have freedom of religion; Church of England can still be as long as they are not considered part of the government.
03:42:25 <HackEgo> 329) <zzo38> However is probably better to have both queen/king and government in case one does bad thing, the other side can argue to them
03:42:41 <pikhq> zzo38: The Church of England is not merely *part* of the government.
03:42:44 <zzo38> And that no religious law exist. Statutory holidays are different thing because you can simply make the law saying which days of the year are statutory holiday, such as December 25, and so on.
03:42:57 <pikhq> zzo38: Certain bishops are in the legislature, *by merit of being bishops*.
03:43:06 <elliott> <pikhq> She is Queen of 14 states, Duke of Normandy, Lord of Mann, member of every order of the various commonwealth realms, an insane number of foreign honors, a number of hard-earned degrees and military awards.
03:43:25 <pikhq> elliott: She refuses to accept honorary degrees.
03:43:33 <pikhq> But she has 4 doctorates.
03:43:46 <elliott> pikhq: Are they "not honorary" in that she had to do the absolute minimum required work?
03:44:18 <pikhq> She received them before becoming Queen.
03:46:12 <pikhq> Yes, and she wasn't expected to become Queen.
03:47:31 <pikhq> She was 3rd in line of succession when she was born.
03:47:42 <zzo38> How is their gender relevant, except for the words you use that you are crowned with the title "Queen"?
03:48:16 <pikhq> And then shit happened.
04:04:04 <elliott> http://groups.google.com/group/net.lang.c/browse_thread/thread/afe9a2e964cffb6d#
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04:06:06 <elliott> http://groups.google.com/group/net.lang.c/browse_thread/thread/429e89764b656e3c#
04:07:33 <elliott> http://groups.google.com/group/net.lang.c/browse_thread/thread/1b454ad8916c2ef8# so glad this didn't catch on
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04:18:44 <pikhq> *Jeeze* I've got some crazy-ass bufferbloat happening somewhere on this network.
04:19:02 <pikhq> No joke, 40ms latency to the home router.
04:22:30 <pikhq> And that's just saturating my uplink.
04:22:36 <pikhq> *Internet* uplink.
04:23:10 <pikhq> A 100Mbps link should not be showing bufferbloat from that load.
04:23:27 * pikhq tries swapping out the switch with an old 10Mbps hub
04:27:23 <pikhq> Okay, not the switch at all.
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04:43:15 <pikhq> So, that switch seems to have immense trouble starting.
04:43:29 <pikhq> "LAWL, BROADCAST PACKETS? WUT R THOSE"
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05:25:07 <zzo38> I invented some metamagic and 'patamagic feats.
05:25:41 <zzo38> coppro: Yes, 'patamagic is something I invented.
05:26:41 <zzo38> Why don't you want to know?
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05:46:50 <zzo38> How heavy is a 12 cu.ft. solid block of gold-plated lead?
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05:52:08 <zzo38> Actually, I figured out its mass (and a lot of other information) on Wolfram|Alpha.
05:56:26 * Sgeo dips zzo38 in.. stuff... and makes gold-plated zzo38
05:56:35 <Sgeo> Electroplating?
05:58:33 <zzo38> Why do you need gold-plated zzo38?
05:58:34 <pikhq_> ... People are convinced that Wiccans do animal and/or human sacrifice?
05:59:40 <pikhq_> Pretty sure the basic tenant is "An it harm none, do what ye will"...
06:00:27 <zzo38> Yes, I know that things, but many people are ignorant of things
06:00:46 <pikhq_> s/ignorant/maliciously wrong/
06:02:10 <zzo38> People are wrong about Christians (including Catholics) too, not only Wiccans and Pagans. Perhaps "maliciously wrong" is what Jack Chick is... his stuff is not even logical.
06:03:21 <pikhq_> The thing is, Chick is quite genuine in presenting his own beliefs.
06:04:27 <zzo38> Yes, he might be, but it is still illogical.
06:04:55 <zzo38> (Not only the words, but the pictures are also inconsistent with each other.)
06:05:01 <pikhq_> If Chick is maliciously wrong, so's every religious person, to an extent.
06:05:26 <pikhq_> Well, regarding his presentation of his own religious beliefs.
06:05:39 <pikhq_> He most *certainly* is maliciously wrong about almost everything else.
06:05:50 <pikhq_> (C.S. Lewis a Satanist? Wut?)
06:06:14 <zzo38> Yes, is what I meant, I meant maliciously wrong about everything else.
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07:15:03 <zzo38> I want to printout the TeX logo in Wikipedia but it won't let me.
07:18:10 <zzo38> There is a SVG file, I can use that.
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07:46:56 <zzo38> Wikipedia has some technical difficulties now
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08:08:56 <cheater00> i just got a captcha from a maths book
08:09:19 <cheater00> how on earth would i enter that :)
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08:26:35 <fizzie> I would've put in A_{ij} instead, but that's just me.
08:26:57 <fizzie> reCAPTCHA does pull in math from time to time. And also non-latin scripts.
08:27:53 <zzo38> I would have put "Aij" there since it is probably how most people would have filled it in. However there was one Greek text once, I tried to do the best I could by selecting the Greek letters from the character map.
08:28:17 <zzo38> (And it did accept that.)
08:28:37 <fizzie> These three are all from reCAPTCHA: http://zem.fi/~fis/faircaptcha.png
08:29:18 <fizzie> (It was a commenting thing somewhere-or-other and I didn't have anything to say, so I didn't try filling those.)
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08:31:07 <dbc> I suspect those will get thrown out because too many people who get the other word of the pair right get those wrong.
08:31:30 <dbc> (i.e. thrown out before being used to block access...)
08:31:39 <dbc> At least the Greek one.
08:35:49 <fizzie> "In ScienceSLAM each participant has 10 minutes to present their research topic to the critical audience and win their support. The form of presentation is free and can range from a more traditional talk to a dance choreography or a self-composed song. But watch out, an entertaining and informative performance is at least as important as pure scientific value! Everything is allowed to win the hearts of the crowd. And it is them to choose the hero of the night,
08:35:49 <fizzie> the winner of ScienceSLAM!"
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08:53:10 <zzo38> ScienceSLAM does seem strange thing, but they can do that if they want to.
08:54:06 <fizzie> As far as I can tell, there's no actual prize: the winner... wins, but that's it.
08:54:50 <zzo38> fizzie: I guess that is good enough. I sometimes do things and win without expecting to win a prize.
08:55:02 <zzo38> So probably other people do, too.
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09:44:57 <cheater-> http://technabob.com/blog/2009/06/08/combimouse-if-it-aint-broke-break-it/
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14:33:34 <ais523> !bfjoust waterfall3 http://sprunge.us/QVGQ
14:33:38 <ais523> take that, trivial clone of waterfall3!
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14:35:51 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_waterfall3: 56.9
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15:23:52 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/fanart/in-soviet-russia.png
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15:31:35 <Ilari> APNIC down 0.03: 38x256(???)+32k+256k+/48 to Australia, 16k to Japan, 2k+256+/48 to India, 64k to China, 256 to Pakistan, 512+/32 to Indonesia, 8k to Taiwan.
15:31:53 <Ilari> I guess most of those 38 /24s to AU were for reachability testing.
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15:41:53 <cheater-> Ilari: what is reachability testing?
15:41:55 <elliott> logs today were so boring.
15:43:05 <Ilari> Actually, quality-testing the newly-allocated blocks. How largely BGP annoucements for those propagate and how much junk traffict those blocks have.
15:43:56 <coppro> why are you keeping this record?
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17:12:05 <elliott> Debian is irrelevant, ZDNet confirms it.
17:12:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The rattling makes it bearable!
17:14:58 <elliott> "For example, the default Debian distributions won’t include any proprietary firmware binary files. While that will be popular with die-hard free software fans, users who just want to use their Wi-Fi hardware and to get the most from their graphics cards won’t be happy."
17:15:00 <elliott> This is the worst article ever.
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17:37:40 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Can't watch now, qu es?
17:38:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, Pachalbel's Canon on 4 music boxes and 2 tapes.
17:39:31 <Gregor> Gee, if only Pachelbel's Canon wasn't SATAN'S MUSIC.
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18:35:22 <Gregor> I wonder if BSD has something similar to GNU's backtrace(3) ...
18:38:11 <fizzie> GCC has builtins for getting stack traces, but I'm not sure if it supported symbol extraction. Perhaps not.
18:38:38 <Gregor> In my case I actually don't care about symbol extraction since most of the backtrace is functions I built at runtime :P
18:41:22 <fizzie> __builtin_return_address takes a "level" parameter and looks that many levs up the stack.
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18:44:10 <fizzie> "On some machines it may be impossible to determine the return address of any function other than the current one; in such cases, or when the top of the stack has been reached, this function will return 0 or a random value."
18:44:24 <fizzie> It's not a very friendly function.
18:44:31 <Gregor> Those machines suck and are boring.
18:44:31 <fizzie> Especially that last bit.
18:47:31 <elliott> Gregor: Psht, I'm trying to stay strictly GNU C99-conformant in mcmap!
18:47:48 <elliott> This includes not assuming that any pointer can fit into a pointer of any other type :P
18:48:11 <elliott> I even have it marked as a bug that I assume a SCM object can fit inside a (void *), even though not doing so would make passing SCM arguments around SO SLOW.
18:48:16 <Gregor> elliott: Uhh, talkin' about something totally unrelated here.
18:48:19 <elliott> And even despite the fact that Guile's internal architecture assumes that.
18:48:26 <elliott> Gregor: I'm saying that your rabid standards incompliance SICKENS me.
18:48:32 <Gregor> elliott: You realize of course I write almost all C code to compile with -Wall -Werror -ansi -pedantic :P
18:48:58 <Gregor> And although I would be willing to use backtrace(3), I would conditionalize it on the appropriate support and autoconf it to detect.
18:48:59 <elliott> Gregor: I was about to ask why not C99, but OH YEAH, there's no full C99 compilers out there!
18:49:28 <elliott> Gregor: Ah! Autoconf! So that all your portability effort is worth naught on any machine that isn't at least vaguely GNU-or-modern-Unix and has a shell. :p
18:49:36 <elliott> (I suppose you could write your own Makefile for the rest.)
18:49:59 <Gregor> So, to be clear, all my portability effort is for naught if I run it on ... OS/2?
18:50:05 <elliott> Gregor: You should write K&R-compliant code instead; after all, there's that compiler C-INTERCAL works with, that compiles K&R C to 16-bit real mode code.
18:50:27 <elliott> Gregor: Also, uh, last I checked Windows doesn't have a shell. (OK, you can get a native bash/zsh for Windows, but I've never been able to run a configure with those + GNU ports.)
18:50:39 <elliott> Cygwin hardly counts, since it can't really create a Makefile that compiles with a native compiler.
18:50:46 <Gregor> SO MUCH SOFTWARE is ported that way to Windows.
18:50:55 <Gregor> But elliott's too lazy, therefore it doesn't work.
18:51:12 <elliott> Gregor: By **native** port, I mean **native**.
18:51:15 <elliott> As in, no cygwin DLL or similar.
18:51:37 <Gregor> So? That's just compile-time.
18:51:47 <elliott> Gregor: It's also a (pseudo-)GNU.
18:51:58 <elliott> So you still can't compile it on a non-pseudo-GNU-or-modern-Unix system.
18:52:07 <Gregor> That's not even vaguely true.
18:52:08 <elliott> What I'm saying is, write a configure.c.
18:52:17 <Gregor> auto* work on fucking SunOS 2.6
18:52:24 <elliott> Gregor: That's "modern" Unix.
18:52:25 <Gregor> Nothing works on HP-UX :P
18:52:55 <elliott> 2.6 came out before February 1986; modern.
18:53:25 <Gregor> If you're using a version of Unix that's older than I am, there will be NO portable build solution that works both there and on modern systems.
18:53:35 <elliott> Gregor: Like I said, configure.c.
18:53:38 <Gregor> elliott: Do you have any recollection of the fact that I worked for years at Intel doing builds of F/OSS software across various unixen on various architectures? We PRAYED for autoconf.
18:53:47 <elliott> Gregor: You realise I'm basically trolling you?
18:53:55 <elliott> For reference, 7th Edition Unix is not modern.
18:54:00 <elliott> 8th Edition is (it's just a modified BSD).
18:54:23 <elliott> Gregor: If you coded in K&R C and had a configure.c script, you could easily work on both V7 Unix and modern-day Linux.
18:54:58 <Gregor> Yes, I could easily work on exactly those two platforms :P
18:55:04 <Gregor> And I could add support for one more platform at a time!
18:55:27 <elliott> Gregor: If you write portable code, you will not require many checks at all. :p
18:55:48 <elliott> Gregor: And you can cut out all the broken-sh-workarounds in configure.
18:55:52 <elliott> Instead you get broken-libc-workarounds.
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19:38:26 <Gregor> The great thing about #!/usr/bin/env is that even though #! only allows binaries, /usr/bin/env lets you use scripts as the interpreters for scripts.
19:38:40 <Gregor> With #!/usr/bin/env, it's turtles all the way down.
19:40:54 <elliott_> Gregor: The great thing about #!/usr/bin/env is that WHY DOESN'T UNIX ALLOW MORE THAN ONE ARGUMENT
19:41:04 <Gregor> Well yeah, that's very annoying ...
19:41:05 <elliott_> #!/usr/bin/env some-interp --behave-sanely --disable-breakage
19:41:11 <Gregor> There should be a #!/usr/bin/args :P
19:41:21 <elliott_> Gregor: Except that Unices can chop it after like 15 chars, I think :P
19:41:32 <elliott_> Gregor: At least with #!/usr/bin/perl you can stick a "-w" after; admittedly most languages are unbroken enough to let you do it directly.
19:41:38 <elliott_> But more than once I have had to use a fugly #!/bin/sh polyglot.
19:41:43 <elliott_> And then promptly shot myself.
19:42:02 <Gregor> #!/usr/bin/env perl\nuse strict;\nuse warnings;\n :P
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20:53:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Have I mentioned how much describing 2 as the "only even prime" annoys me.
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20:56:58 <Gregor> I mean, yes, its own primality guarantees it to be the only even prime, but that doesn't make it untrue :P
20:57:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but there are so many more interesting properties of numbers that it cheapens the rest.
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21:19:24 <Gregor> PL, or do you want more specific than that?
21:19:39 <Gregor> Programming languages.
21:20:17 <Phantom_Hoover> YOUR ABILITY TO OPINE ON MATHEMATICS HANGS IN THE BALANCE
21:20:26 <Gregor> When you're a grad student, CS is no longer a "specialty" :P
21:20:56 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: If done properly, CS is a form of math degree, so hey.
21:21:37 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, well, yes, but it's still a (broad) specialisation.
21:21:42 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:22:11 <Phantom_Hoover> (And depressingly few places do it properly, as APT Guy shows.)
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21:24:51 <Phantom_Hoover> APT Guy is a guy at my school who is involved at a rather hazy (but probably low) level with Ubuntu; he is pretty awful at maths, having failed the qualification you do in 5th year, and has an offer to go to Strathclyde (current home of Epigram, no less) conditional on him getting a C on his second attempt.
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21:25:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Strathclyde *appeared* to be one of the places that did it properly.
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21:55:37 <elliott> I swear to god this thing is less stable than recent Windowses.
21:55:43 <elliott> CLOSING MINECRAFT CRASHES X
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21:58:18 <elliott> olsner: I swear they're deliberately trying to make X worse.
21:58:30 <Patashu> and I thought you guys would be above playing minecraft :p
21:58:36 <elliott> It's a big, big program that does nothing at all for you.
21:58:39 <pikhq> The X Windowing System, Version 11.
21:58:43 <elliott> Patashu: #esoteric-minecraft :-P
21:58:45 <olsner> it's an evil plot from the X maintainers to make wayland take over faster so they don't have to maintain the shit anymore
21:58:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Patashu, the thing which displays windows and stuff on basically all the Unix systems.
21:58:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: *fails to display
21:59:05 <pikhq> AKA a program that exists to get in between programs and devices for no reason.
21:59:32 <pikhq> Though until recently it had effectively all the drivers for the GUI.
21:59:39 <elliott> olsner: maybe i'll just use the console until wayland takes over.
21:59:56 <elliott> Maybe I'll switch to Windows :P
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22:01:40 <olsner> switch to wayland, then use X-on-wayland for compatibility?
22:01:56 <elliott> olsner: compatibility: with everything, i.e. X will still own me
22:02:08 <elliott> maybe i'll just boot into OS X, except everything else about OS X sucks
22:02:52 <olsner> dunno how the X-on-wayland stuff works, but if there's either a separate "X server" for each program, or it's just libX pretending to talk to a server, you'd only crash the program itself and nothing else
22:03:24 <elliott> possibly. bet wayland is quite buggy right now though :)
22:03:25 <olsner> but it seems a bit more likely that the thing that exists is a single X server that has all the X windows and puts them all on wayland
22:03:35 <pikhq> olsner: It's a rootless X server, as on OS X.
22:03:53 <olsner> exactly, i.e. you'd be just as screwed when it crashes
22:03:55 <elliott> olsner: I know! I'll run a Windows VM with a Windows X server on it, and X-forward-via-ssh all my Linux programs there
22:04:05 <elliott> now to make virtualbox output to a framebuffer
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22:07:15 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, why? <-- i was just checking that the read function doesn't require a decimal point in the input for Doubles
22:08:27 <elliott> but since "1" is valid syntax for a Double, it should read like that too
22:11:03 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: Read and Show don't attempt to be completely compatible with all haskell syntax you'd use in a program
22:11:54 <oerjan> the other day we noted it ignores associativity of operator constructors in data types
22:12:33 <oerjan> basically the main real requirement is that what show outputs should be parsable by read
22:13:59 <oerjan> Infinity is _not_ a legal Double value as a haskell expression
22:15:40 <elliott> oerjan: well that's a bug.
22:15:51 <elliott> <oerjan> the other day we noted it ignores associativity of operator constructors in data types
22:15:56 <elliott> yes, but it produces valid output anyway
22:16:09 <elliott> oerjan: I'd have that output infinity and have
22:16:09 <oerjan> elliott: except the haskell standard _has_ no portable expression for infinity
22:16:13 <elliott> infinity :: Whatever a => a
22:16:29 <elliott> oerjan: well then I'd do it the Scheme way, have invalid expressions show specially
22:18:37 <oerjan> might have used "(1/0)", perhaps
22:19:37 <oerjan> anyhow my impression is Read is discouraged for "real" parsing
22:21:32 <elliott> oerjan: who cares about efficiency, this is about purity!
22:21:52 <elliott> yes, 1/0 would be nice because it's valid in exactly the places the input is
22:23:27 <olsner> inefficient? that can all be optimized away!
22:24:01 <elliott> X11 applications are supported through an X server, optionally rootless, running as Wayland client, although currently it only supports Intel X.org drivers.[21]
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22:24:16 <Patashu> 1/0 is complex infinity because you don't know if it's positive or negative
22:24:20 <Patashu> making it just 'infinity' is a loss of information
22:24:39 <elliott> Patashu: Lern2floatingpoint
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22:25:17 <Patashu> no the real answer is 'you'll never need that information ever'
22:25:26 <elliott> Patashu: that's not necessarily true
22:25:31 * oerjan swats Patashu -----###
22:25:31 <elliott> consider interval notation
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22:27:07 <elliott> oerjan: implicit admission that you used 1/0 to stand for an infinity in interval notation in your phd thesis!
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22:27:14 <elliott> AND BECAUSE OF THAT ONE AMBIGUITY OF SIGN
22:27:20 <elliott> YOUR WORK'S INHERENT FALLACIOUSNESS WENT UNDISCOVERED FOR ALL THESE YEARS
22:27:26 <Patashu> no wait I know how to solve this
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22:27:45 <olsner> *oerjan's INHERENT FALLACIOUSNESS
22:27:48 <oerjan> elliott: doubtful, i'd have used \infty (iirc)
22:27:57 <elliott> oerjan: but that's positive infinity! maybe!
22:29:47 <oerjan> elliott: well i'm thinking that if you use the one point compactification of the real line, there's only one, and you get a circle, and if you interpret intervals as alway going the same way around the circle, the notation makes sense. also [2, 0] becomes everything >= 2 _or_ <= 0.
22:30:06 <elliott> but your degree is as good as revoked.
22:30:14 * oerjan swats elliott -----###
22:30:45 <Patashu> so you loop through infinity and come around the other side
22:30:50 <Patashu> like with negative temperatures?
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22:31:42 * oerjan thinks the interval exchange systems article in his thesis _might_ be sort of close to this, vaguely
22:32:00 * elliott starts writing Ørjan Johansen: Fraud, or Nazi?
22:32:07 <elliott> to be published in a mathematical journal near you
22:33:27 <oerjan> mind you that is sort of identifying 0 and 1, not -infinity and infinity. or rather, we ended up splitting points _up_ a lot, and 0 and 1 becomes a split pair
22:35:32 <Sgeo> I'm going to assume no one's interested in hearing about KT-AT?
22:36:26 <Sgeo> She clarified that we're just friends.
22:36:43 <Sgeo> Re-clarified, I guess
22:36:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Good, now go and be creepy to someone who isn't an idiot.
22:38:52 <Sgeo> I'm pretty sure I'm downgrading by talking to Other
22:40:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Are you just especially attracted to idiots or something?
22:40:20 <Phantom_Hoover> (ARE THEY THE ONLY ONES WHO WILL INDULGE YOUR SICK BLOOD FURRY FETISH)
22:40:49 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> Are you just especially attracted to idiots or something?
22:40:58 <elliott> You think there's anyone who's NOT an idiot at his ""college""?
22:41:05 <fizzie> Ooh, nice terms for the (rented) cable modems of the local cable TV/ISP hybrid: if you "replace the firmware" (which I think includes also firmware upgrades from the manufacturer, not just third-party hacks) you're responsible for paying the operator the full purchase price. (Apparently because the device is permantently "tainted" after that, and unfit for any purpose.)
22:41:08 <Sgeo> Other does not go to this college
22:41:31 <elliott> It will always have the mark.
22:41:33 <fizzie> elliott: WATER MEMORY.
22:41:38 <elliott> Kind of like rape, except... firmware!
22:41:51 <elliott> fizzie: CIRCUIT MEMORY; it's what SSDs are based on.
22:42:17 <fizzie> Yes, the conductors remember every signal that has ever passed through them. That's how homeopathy works.
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22:42:46 <elliott> fizzie: It's electric water.
22:46:44 <Zwaarddijk> but uh, I heard homeopathy worked through nanobottery
22:47:30 <Zwaarddijk> the pro-homeopathy people keep changing their explanation to whatever sciencey thing is not properly understood enough by enough people, so I never keep up
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23:01:28 <elliott> Sweet, VirtualBox is non-deterministic.
23:05:13 <Zwaarddijk> I take it this is not the usual use of "non-deterministic" as found in complexity science and discussions of automata and such?
23:06:09 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: No, it's the usual engineering sense.
23:06:16 <elliott> Which is related, admittedly :P
23:06:19 <elliott> But I'm using it in a broad sense.
23:06:48 <Zwaarddijk> out of all people writing comp.sci. bachelor's theses at my uni currently
23:06:53 <elliott> I installed an OS and now I can't reinstall it, getting the same error each time, with completely separate VMs :P
23:07:00 <Zwaarddijk> I am the only one writing a theoretical thesis :|
23:07:01 <elliott> (Maybe it updated and I just didn't notice, though.)
23:07:17 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: Transfer immediately.
23:07:44 <Sgeo> This is r/shittyadvice, right?
23:07:54 <Deewiant> Bachelor's theses tend to be fairly nontheoretical at least around here.
23:08:11 <Gregor> Bachelor's ... theses ...
23:08:23 <elliott> Gregor: HE HAS SO MANY OF THEM.
23:08:33 <elliott> I think that's correct, though.
23:08:39 <elliott> (Bachelor's thesis)s -> Bachelor's theses.
23:08:41 <Gregor> That's not what I was referring to.
23:08:48 <Gregor> The pluralization is clearly fine.
23:09:00 <Gregor> The notion of a thesis for a bachelor's degree.
23:09:17 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Apache.
23:09:22 -!- Apache has changed nick to Sgeo.
23:09:37 <Gregor> Sgeo: That's not an Apache bug, it's an HTTP bug.
23:09:38 <Sgeo> Of course Apache woulf be registered
23:09:41 <Zwaarddijk> Gregor: unless master's theses, these don't contain any theoretical advances, they're just .. summaries of some topic
23:10:09 <elliott> (It was actually Phillip Hallam-Baker, but that's boring.)
23:10:25 <Zwaarddijk> I consider trying to summarize why relativization doesn't cut it for the P=?NP problem
23:10:27 <Sgeo> Apavhe came to mind as some radnom web thing
23:10:43 <elliott> Ha ha, you silly illiterate product of inbreeding. Wait what?
23:10:53 <elliott> Also Swedish and Finnish at the same time; twice as bad.
23:11:04 <elliott> "No drives were found." Well that's a new one.
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23:17:19 <Vorpal> <elliott> "No drives were found." Well that's a new one. <-- where is that from?
23:17:44 <elliott> Vorpal: Windows 7 installer. Why I'm installing it in a VM, I'm not sure. Why it isn't working, I'm even less sure.
23:18:00 <elliott> But, dammit, I can't let any problem go unresolved.
23:18:29 <Vorpal> elliott, I managed to install windows 7 pro in virtualbox. 64-bit.
23:18:43 <Vorpal> that was some time ago though
23:18:47 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm trying Ultimate (pirated of course) 64-bit ... and this worked just days/weeks ago.
23:18:53 <elliott> I'm thinkin' some VirtualBox update broke compatibility.
23:18:58 <elliott> But you'd think they'd test this stuff.
23:19:01 <elliott> (The old VM still /boots/>0
23:19:17 <Vorpal> elliott, also I think mine is RTM. Since I got it from MSDNAA before windows 7 was available in the stores.
23:19:21 <elliott> Hmm, still 3.2.8; I think that's what I had before. And this is stable Ubuntu so they wouldn't really update.
23:19:37 <elliott> Vorpal: I think I have the release candidate on some drive somewhere. :p
23:19:44 <elliott> (But the whole Internet got access to that.)
23:20:52 <elliott> Still the same error past the first bootup.
23:21:39 <elliott> "That error code is often due to the BIOS not being recognised as fully ACPI
23:21:39 <elliott> compatible. Do you have the latest BIOS update on the laptop?"
23:22:13 <elliott> "I think this problem may be associated with APIC (Advanced Programmable
23:22:13 <elliott> Interrupt Controller, not ACPI (Advanced Configuration and Power
23:22:25 <elliott> Apparently enabling APIC might help, but that's strange because I did not enable it in the other VM...
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23:36:11 <elliott> { x = {valueOf: function () { fire_ze_missiles(); return 42; }}; y = 69; /* now var z=0; for(i=0;i<x;i++) z += y; and x*y both fire ze missiles, but a different number of times */ }
23:36:21 <elliott> (No but seriously, who's idea was valueOf?)
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23:37:16 <Gregor> OMG, things can have side effects NOOOO
23:37:27 <elliott> Gregor: I wouldn't mind e.g. + being overloadable...
23:37:38 <elliott> Gregor: But you can make an object that acts exactly like an integer except that mentioning it has side-effects.
23:37:54 <Gregor> s/mentioning it/using it in math/
23:38:52 <elliott> Gregor: Surely it triggers for == too?
23:39:04 <elliott> Gregor: Well that's just even more fux0red.
23:39:11 <Gregor> Errrrwait, for == not for ===
23:39:27 <elliott> And comparisons + arithmetic == pretty much all you can do with an integer :P
23:40:18 <Gregor> <Gregor> js> var x = {valueOf: function() { this.acc++; return 42; }, acc: 0}; var z = false; if (x == 42) z = true; [x.acc, z]
23:40:18 <Gregor> <gbot2> Gregor: [1,true]
23:40:25 <Gregor> Yup, it triggers for ==
23:40:31 <Gregor> So yeah, for math *shrugs*
23:41:31 <elliott> Gregor: What about array indexing. Ohwait, forgot you don't have arrays.
23:41:38 <elliott> lol @ your language is a language that is a toy language
23:41:56 <Gregor> ... uhh, yeah, JS has arrays, it just doesn't have a uniquely array indexing operator.
23:42:21 <Gregor> However, since the index has to be a primitive, I suspect that'd valueOf too.
23:42:40 <elliott> <Gregor> ... uhh, yeah, JS has arrays, it just doesn't have a uniquely array indexing operator.
23:42:44 <elliott> Nope, it has objects that pretend to be arrays. :p
23:42:59 <elliott> (By being half-array, half-monstrosity.)
23:43:16 <Gregor> ... yeaaaaaaaaaah, OK.
23:43:27 <Gregor> I care not for your trollery.
23:43:54 <elliott> Seriously though, JS is a terrible language.
23:44:04 <elliott> Almost as bad as Italian or your mom.
23:45:02 * Sgeo pours elliott a cup of Objective-J
23:55:42 <Ilari> Throw the DOM and various DOM incompatiblities on top and it is even worse. :-)