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01:33:12 <oklopol> i should really be sleeping
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02:03:31 * pikhq_ notes that apple cider (the fermented beverage) is fucking delicious.
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02:10:45 <pikhq> In light of it being my 21st soon, I seem to be getting inundated with various alcoholic beverages.
02:10:56 <pikhq> No all-American pisswater yet, thankfully.
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02:21:57 <calamari> alcohol is extremely overrated
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02:27:55 * pikhq doesn't understand the appeal in cheap alcoholic swill.
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02:29:11 <calamari> sorry, I don't understand the appeal of any of it.. tastes nasty
02:29:34 <pikhq> Decent alcoholic beverages are fucking delicious.
02:30:19 <pikhq> But the effects of alcohol? Yeah, I don't really understand the appeal.]
02:31:59 <pikhq> Maybe I'm just a freak that likes thought. :P
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02:53:46 <Gregor> At some point you have to draw a line *shrugs*
02:53:55 <Gregor> Nobody says "I don't like Coke because of its trace amounts of alcohol"
02:54:25 <Gregor> Except for the kind of people who put more trust into small, obsolete books than common sense of course.
02:56:33 <Sgeo> It's a large group of obsolete books...
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02:57:44 <Gregor> The books themselves are frequently small :P
02:58:03 <Sgeo> I read the Song of Soloman on the bus
02:58:28 <Sgeo> It wasn't as dirty as I thought it would be. Not really for kids, but nothing too graphic
02:58:42 <Sgeo> Did seem incentual though
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03:02:49 <Gregor> If (IF!) I offered to change my name to Mallory Caitor if I got more than $1,000 in donations and won libc.so, would more people donate? :P
03:03:00 <Sgeo> And I see something online saying it's a bad translation
03:03:06 <Sgeo> Argh, low battery
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03:37:59 <pikhq> Curious. The current government in Canada has been found in contempt of Parliament.
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04:27:34 <Gregor> Let's say you wanted to, purely for the curiosity, create a system which would remain active for the remainder of your life, capable of serving a web page (or equivalent) which simply reports its uptime, AND capable of being upgraded to meet new standards so long as the upgrades require only software changes.
04:27:40 <Gregor> How would you go about that?
04:28:20 <Gregor> Note that it doesn't need to be Internet- or otherwise network-accessible at all times, as that's probably wildly out of your control, but you should strive to make it so most of the time.
04:30:15 <pikhq> I would design it using a microcontroller that is likely never ever going to cease use.
04:31:19 <Gregor> Does that matter? The Z80 isn't more /stable/ than, say, a commodity x86, and you can never replace the processor anyway.
04:31:29 <Gregor> By "remain active for the remainder of your life" I mean 100% uptime.
04:31:45 <Gregor> (Maybe I didn't make that clear :P )
04:32:49 <pikhq> Oh. In that case I'd fucking hand-design something with wire wrapping.
04:33:00 <Gregor> Uhh, good luck upgrading that software.
04:33:15 <Gregor> Oh, unless you're taking advantage of a loophole in my description and putting everything in hardware :P
04:33:22 <Gregor> "Nothing requires software changes, therefore win"
04:33:40 <pikhq> Who said anything about software? :)
04:34:04 <Gregor> "AND capable of being upgraded to meet new standards so long as the upgrades require only software changes." // I did :P
04:35:30 <pikhq> Anyways, I never *said* it couldn't be an actual CPU.
04:35:57 <Gregor> Yeah, but if it is then that just leads back to "<Gregor> Uhh, good luck upgrading that software."
04:36:17 <pikhq> I don't see why it would be difficult.
04:36:49 <invariable> Gregor: for your logging bot: make sure it doesn't join an auto-kline channel
04:37:16 <Gregor> invariable: It can only join a channel due either to an /invite or a glogbot-op request.
04:37:29 <pikhq> It's just that wire-wrapping together digital circuitry will result in *exceptionally* reliable system.
04:38:18 <invariable> https://twitter.com/SecureTips --> is pure win.
04:38:19 <invariable> And yes I've said this here before :-p
04:38:47 <pikhq> And if you also make the memory be, say, magnetic core, it should survive just about everything but someone actually bombing it.
04:41:12 <Gregor> What's your reliable power source?
04:42:25 <pikhq> Though I doubt I, personally, would be able to find one easily, if I could, I'd get an RTG.
04:43:11 <invariable> Gregor: if I neeeded 100% uptime I'd go for redundancy over reliability
04:44:44 <Gregor> Redundancy IS reliability when all redundant sources are taken as a whole.
04:45:28 <invariable> Gregor: I meant: I'd go for a larger number of more fallible parts opposed to more expensive/fewer less fallible parts
04:45:46 <invariable> ie - spend time making more of them work than making those that work work better
04:46:06 <Gregor> Mmmmm, so you're making a cluster.
04:46:17 <Gregor> (Or something broadly in that family)
04:46:56 <pikhq> Soooo... Make a hard-to-notice botnet that does Trusting Trust on pretty much all future computer and OS designs. >:D
04:47:10 <pikhq> The Internet shall be my cluster!
04:47:48 <Gregor> Also ANYBODY WHO HASN'T DONATED TO THE LIBC.SO FUND BY SUNDAY SHALL BE DECLARED A TRAITOR
04:48:15 <Gregor> (This means that almost the entire population of the Earth will be traitors as of Sunday)
04:48:30 <pikhq> invariable: Yes, but it's pretty hard to.
04:48:42 <invariable> pikhq: so is the trusting trust attack :-p
04:49:03 <pikhq> invariable: Oh, I've already proposed a fucking universal botnet.
04:49:17 <pikhq> invariable: It's not like this is all that *practical*. :)
04:49:50 <Gregor> invariable: btw, since when are there instant-kline channels ...
04:50:22 <invariable> Gregor: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#klineannoyinguser
04:53:38 <Gregor> I can only assume that the auto-kline channels do not, in fact, exist, so even if Freenode didn't have an only-ops-can-invite default AND allowed people to invite others to join channels they're not on, /invite wouldn't work
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05:01:33 <Gregor> Err, do not exist in the sense that they are not actual channels (not in /list, can't be /invited etc), not that they won't actually trigger kline.
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05:09:37 <coppro> Gregor: I assume it's, say, #porn
05:10:09 <invariable> its the type of channels botnets typically join
05:10:29 <coppro> oh, with different sigils?
05:11:34 <invariable> coppro: I won't give exact examples: but it is not a channel one is likely to join accidentally.
05:12:01 <invariable> its something like #m33tupForMySillyBotNet4934892489
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05:38:26 <pikhq> 'Twould seem to be a good thing, that.
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05:39:25 <pikhq> Doing rather well this evening.
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05:39:59 <coppro> I have discovered the problem with modern image compression
05:40:14 <coppro> naive compression does it row-by-row
05:40:27 <coppro> advanced algorithms might do more at once, but are fundamentally row-based
05:40:37 <pikhq> Not entirely true.
05:40:41 <coppro> this makes it impossible to compress infinite images properly
05:40:52 <coppro> only a diagonal algorithm can compress an infinite image
05:41:01 <pikhq> The typical lossy image compression scheme is actually submatrix by submatrix.
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05:41:47 <coppro> but how are those submatrices ordered?
05:42:15 <coppro> no way you'll compress an infinite image like that
05:42:39 <pikhq> There's no real reason that they need to have a particular order; they're handled entirely independently of every other submatrix.
05:42:54 <pikhq> At least until you get into more advanced techniques.
05:43:34 <coppro> hence the problem with image processing today
05:44:12 <pikhq> And hypothetically you *could* just treat the entire image as a single matrix and perform the DCT on *that*...
05:44:29 <pikhq> Though that involves an infinite number of infinite summations.
05:45:17 <pikhq> And then multiplying it by another infinite matrix for the sake of quantising it.
05:50:06 <pikhq> Though after all *that*, it's a simple matter to output the infinite matrix into an infinite bitstream.
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12:59:29 <Gregor> Why must I continue to assume competence on ##javascript X_X
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13:01:01 <fizzie> Gregor: glutton for punishment: 1. (idiomatic) One persistent in an effort in spite of harmful or unpleasant results. "I should have quit this job long ago, but I guess I'm just a glutton for punishment."
13:01:28 <Sgeo> Gregor, what happened?
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13:05:53 <ais523> well, competent JavaScript programmers exist
13:05:59 <ais523> is it just that they don't hang out on Freenode?
13:06:10 <ais523> or that ##javascript is sufficiently competence-hostile that all the competent people were driven away?
13:11:45 <fizzie> Perhaps this was just a case of mistakenly assuming competence \forall, when competence just \exists.
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13:23:30 <ais523> [13:22] * oerjan evilly makes a non-logged utterance
13:24:04 <oerjan> IT WOULD HAVE WORKED TOO IF NOT FOR THIS MEDDLING KID
13:25:33 <fizzie> You could have always just disputed the accuracy of ais523's quotation. (Doing it after that outburst might not be entirely credible any more.)
13:26:03 <ais523> I dispute being referred to as a "KID"
13:26:19 <ais523> my parents are not goats, and I do not aspire to be the Guy
13:26:55 <oerjan> are you _sure_ they're not goats? maybe they are just using creative makeup
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13:28:36 <oerjan> also, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouMeddlingKids
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13:29:25 <ais523> oerjan: I've watched enough Scooby-Doo when younger to not need a TV Tropes link to get the reference
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13:29:41 <ais523> children need a constant diet of cartoons to avoid them becoming bored and going out and setting fire to recycling bins
13:29:52 <oerjan> FINE, IGNORE MY EVIL PLOT TO ENSNARE YOU IN TVTROPES THEN
13:30:50 * oerjan does not picture ais523 as a person to set fire to recycling bins. but maybe that's just due to overdosing on cartoons.
13:31:01 <ais523> oerjan: I never have done
13:31:16 <ais523> the recycling bins near my house have been repeatedly set on fire, but on no occasion was it me who did so
13:31:40 <ais523> besides, I have a complex strategy to avoid getting ensnared in TV Tropes
13:31:53 <oerjan> at least, no one saw you, and they certainly cannot prove it.
13:31:57 <ais523> although at work, I abandon it in favour of the much simpler strategy of never visiting it at all
13:32:03 <fizzie> There's a local maximum of the being-set-on-fire density function for recycling bins that coincides with your house, but I'm sure it's really just a coincidence.
13:32:22 <ais523> fizzie: but that's because the recycling bins are near my house!
13:32:30 <ais523> not because I'm there!
13:32:54 <ais523> some people wanted to build a mobile phone mast near my house, but they changed their minds because they thought it would just be repeatedly destroyed by vandals
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13:33:12 <fizzie> That shouldn't affect the being-set-on-fire density for recycling bins, just the overall recycling-bins-that-are-set-on-fire density.
13:33:30 <ais523> well, vandalism's quite high where I live
13:33:37 <ais523> or used to be, before the place started swarming with police
13:33:39 <oerjan> listen to fizzie, he's our official statistician
13:34:02 <fizzie> A reasonably non-vandalizable mobile phone mast sounds doable. (Barring especially dedicated vandals, anyway.)
13:34:21 <ais523> the harder you make something to vandalise, the more dedicated the vandals get
13:35:20 <oerjan> just turn up the signal level until the vandals cannot survive getting near it.
13:35:48 <fizzie> There's this 1:10^9 scale model of the solar system in Helsinki; the Earth/Moon model used to be a regular target for vandalism, so often that they had to reimplement it like this: http://www.ursa.fi/ursa/aurinkokuntamalli/eng/earth-en.html
13:36:06 <fizzie> I think there used to be a thin metal rod for the Moon.
13:36:39 <ais523> what a bizarre thing to vandalise
13:36:59 <fizzie> And the Earth is just a hole; if you click on the "Mars" link you can see the others are spheres.
13:37:43 <fizzie> Saturn seems to have taken some damage too.
13:38:23 <fizzie> (The Neptune model is pretty nearby to the university.)
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13:40:22 <fizzie> "The model of Pluto used to be near the Länsiväylä cycling/pedestrian bridge leading to Hanasaari, but it has been missing for a while. [note: The pages note that in 2000 that both the guide and Pluto were missing, but as of July 2004, the guide has been replaced but Pluto is still AWOL.]
13:40:30 <fizzie> Guys fishing and the info guide next to the Länsiväylä bridge rail. Pluto is either still missing or so small as to be impossible to see."
13:40:47 <fizzie> It's not a very well-maintained model.
13:42:03 <fizzie> But the "visit them all" route is still a reasonable bicycle trip, even if the attractions have been manhandled a bit.
13:45:46 * oerjan imagines opposing vandal gangs battling over whether pluto should be included or not
13:46:18 <fizzie> "The City of Helsinki and the Astronomical Society Ursa look after the models. Vandals have occasionally bothered the models. If you find that the models or their guide charts have been vandalized, Please call Ursa at 09 684 0400."
13:46:22 <fizzie> That's a nice verb to use.
13:46:32 <fizzie> "Oh, stop bothering Saturnus."
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13:51:43 <fizzie> Yeah, the Finnish pages confirm what I thought: currently they have both Pluto and Charon represented by pins (2.5mm and 1.8mm in diameter) in the info board. (Also Pluto's included "for historical reasons".)
13:53:00 <fizzie> 2.2 and 1.5, not 2.5 and 1.8. (Don't know how I managed to typo a constant offset of 0.3 in.)
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14:40:18 -!- Gregor has set topic: "First, you are dating a mammal which is concerning. | Democratic capitalist history of the God Blessed United States of America: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | Antifederalist punditry: http://gregorr.dyndns.org:8080/logs/_esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
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15:50:50 <Ilari> Slow day with APNIC: APNIC down 0.04: 131k+64k+32k+16k+/32 to Australia, 32k+16k to Japan, 16k to Vietnam, 1k to Pakistan, 1k to Thailand, 1k to Bangladesh, 64k to Hong Kong, 256k+128k+32k to China, 256+2x/48 to Malaysia, /32 to Singapore.
15:51:10 <ais523> slow days are good, ofc
15:52:06 <Ilari> Oops, that first is supposed to be 128k, not 131k.
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16:39:06 <cpressey> @tell Deewiant I contend that "form feed reflects" is not a BAD for Befunge. FF only has a meaning in a Trefunge source file.
16:39:41 <Deewiant> cpressey: What of the way line breaks are treated in Unefunge?
16:39:41 <lambdabot> Deewiant: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
16:40:34 <cpressey> Not sure I follow. Can you explain that?
16:40:52 <Deewiant> "Subsequent lines in Unefunge are simply appended to the first, and the end of the source file indicates the end of the (single) line. End-of-line markers are never copied into Funge-Space."
16:41:41 <cpressey> Sounds like a special case for Unefunge to me.
16:41:56 <cpressey> And FF is not an end-of-line marker :)
16:42:21 <Deewiant> Seems to me that FF in Befunge is analogous to CR/NL/CRNL in Unefunge
16:43:21 <Deewiant> Newline: increase Y, set X = 0
16:43:39 <Deewiant> Newline when Y doesn't exist: do nothing
16:43:47 <Deewiant> FF when Z doesn't exist: ?? (my interpretation: do nothing)
16:45:05 <cpressey> OK. Well, I have FBBI down to 11 BADs (I thought it was 6 but then I realized you can't just grep for BAD in Mycology's output for some reason.) I don't know how many of these I plan to try to fix.
16:45:42 <Deewiant> Some test failures prevent other tests from running, which is why you can get more after fixing something.
16:47:28 <cpressey> No, I mean it's really that "fbbi mycology.b98 | grep BAD" really doesn't return all the lines that have BAD on them. If I pipe the output into less, I see that some characters are highlighted. Is there some weird ANSI escape sequence thing going on in the output?
16:48:19 <Deewiant> From my old Mycology results page:
16:48:21 <Deewiant> FBBI’s help text describes a flag -fast with the words “more speed, at the cost of locking up in infinite loops”. Interestingly, all it does is that it prevents the output of the string " \b" whenever the IP moves. I’m told that this harks back to the days of DOS, wherein one could only interrupt a program when it did a system call, or some such. That would certainly explain the description.
16:48:27 <Deewiant> The problem with it is that FBBI prints that even if the output is redirected to a file, which results in tonnes of binary interspersed with all the normal output. Hence, I recommend always running with -f passed—if you must use FBBI.
16:51:02 <cpressey> But wait, re your FF argument: if FF is analogous to NL, then it shouldn't even be loaded into the source (unless binary I/O is in effect -- in which case it should be loaded, and it should be considered unimplemented because it is outside 32-127.)
16:53:23 <Deewiant> Yes, it shouldn't be loaded, that's correct.
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16:55:02 <cpressey> The temptation to work on the Befunge-111 spec is strong. Well, thanks for discussing this, anyway, and thanks again for Mycology. I'
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16:55:22 <cpressey> I'll probably release a new version of FBBI soon-ish, but it'll probably still have a handful of BADs.
16:55:34 <cpressey> And I should probably get back to work.
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17:21:47 <Gregor> impomatic: I have glogbotted.
17:22:09 <Gregor> impomatic: glogbot is public-access, so if you want a logger in #corewars then just ask the appropriate person to /invite it.
17:22:35 <impomatic> Gregor: thanks. Where does glogbot log to?
17:23:35 <Gregor> impomatic: (Although that URL is temporary, I'll move it to codu.org at some point)
17:25:38 <cheater-> is alise still on the hissy fit
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17:32:01 <impomatic> Gregor: thanks. Logging is set up :-)
17:41:46 <Gregor> cheater-: As far as we know.
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17:47:24 <Gregor> cheater-: Don't complain :P
17:47:54 <cheater-> Gregor: do you see me complaining? i always enjoyed benny hill and other silly things :))
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18:05:37 <Gregor> impomatic: Good thing you got a new logbot in #corewars, since clearly the place is hoppin' ;)
18:10:55 <Gregor> Closest that have been done are things like PSOX.
18:11:03 <Gregor> Which isn't a general-purpose FFI of course.
18:11:06 <Gregor> But could probably be adapted to be so.
18:12:27 <variable> Gregor: I'm fine with a POSIX only FFI
18:12:53 <Gregor> Well, what I mean is it's not actually an FFI, it's just a binding to POSIX functions :P
18:13:01 <variable> Gregor: yeah - that should be fine
18:13:20 <pumpkin> pikhq: holy shit, geohot is fucking crazy
18:13:45 <Gregor> variable: Well, then check out PSOX and make Sgeo happy X-P
18:14:57 <variable> Gregor: oh perfect - that is EXACTLY what I was looking for :-p
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19:00:48 <Ilari> Latest 30-day allocations for APNIC: 2.420 blocks. Not counting today: 2.372 blocks. Entiere world not counting today: 2.724 blocks (87% by APNIC).
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19:17:04 <pumpkin> I was suggesting attributing it :)
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19:19:41 <cheater99> it's not like anyone cares about the identity of you faceless blogs
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20:15:53 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, 19:19:41: <cheater99> it's not like anyone cares about the identity of you faceless blogs
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20:25:31 <pikhq> No, no, to 12:12 < pumpkin> pikhq: holy shit, geohot is fucking crazy
20:25:47 <cheater00> wait who's geohot and why is he crazy?
20:26:17 <pikhq> George Hotz of SCEA v. George Hotz et al fame.
20:26:40 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Sony Computer Entertainment of America.
20:26:43 <cheater00> http://www.maxconsole.net/content.php?44568-Geohot-goes-crazy-respawns-as-Eminem-wannabe
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20:27:28 <Phantom_Hoover> So, in other news, a Christmas card for my family sent from America arrived *today*.
20:28:28 <pumpkin> pikhq: he sent them his hard drives
20:28:35 <pumpkin> pikhq: with the controller boards removed from them...
20:28:48 <pumpkin> Sony was understandably not happy, and is accusing him of tampering with evidence
20:29:55 <cheater00> he should have sent them his hard drives, except only readable by a special driver that swaps the bits in some fucked up way.
20:30:31 <cheater00> OR: send them his hard drives, except submerged in resin to protect the electronics inside!
20:31:00 <fizzie> Can I have a citation on this controller board thing? (And anyway, weren't those sent to a third party, not Sony at all?)
20:35:19 <fizzie> I think the funniest SCEA/Hotz thing I've read was when one of Sony's filed subpoenas to Paypal said just "1. PayPal, Inc. is directed to furnish all documents, including electronically stored information, in its possession, custody or control.", period, without specifying anything else.
20:35:33 <fizzie> That's quite a request.
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20:48:21 <cheater00> i'm hoping for bartab to be fixed and working in firefox 4 before the end of the week
20:48:31 <cheater00> looks there's some nice activity in the repo!
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21:01:20 <pikhq> fizzie: It's in the SCEA filings.
21:01:32 <pikhq> fizzie: From the third party in question.
21:02:25 <pikhq> fizzie: As these are nominally competent analysts of hard drives, it seems they would have noticed that pretty instantly.
21:02:54 <pikhq> I'm inclined to accuse *them* of tampering with the evidence.
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21:24:28 <Sgeo> http://www.cs.sunysb.edu/undergrad/CSEMajorRequirements.html
21:24:36 <Sgeo> Is this really that much better than my school?
21:24:42 <Sgeo> Just the occasional math course
21:24:48 <Sgeo> Erm, ok, a bit more
21:29:55 <fizzie> It seems somewhat engineering-oriented. And a smaller number of courses than I'd expect, but then again I don't really know anything about your educamational systems.
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21:43:53 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Are these DF bug reports or something?
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21:50:44 <fizzie> Now that I look back what courses I took during the M.Sc degree, it's quite an incoherent collection.
21:52:50 <fizzie> I don't know which one thing corresponds to the "what" in your parlance. We have the general study line, an "option", the major, and a set of minors.
21:55:01 <fizzie> The "study program" was 'tietotekniikka', which I guess converts to "Computer Science and/or Engineering". (They're grouped together under the same roof here.)
21:55:58 <Zwaarddijk> are you a diplom engineer or a magister of philosophy?
21:56:25 <fizzie> Zwaarddijk: DI; just managed to graduate from TKK mere moments before it became Aalto.
21:56:34 <Zwaarddijk> (MSc seems to be a bit ambiguous between those)
21:57:11 <fizzie> (Here "mere moments" == four months or so.)
21:59:39 <fizzie> But (probably due to hysterical raisins) the path to a computer sciencey person includes some rather odd things, like courses on basic electronics. (Or at least did; maybe the study program revampings have made the contents more logical too.)
22:02:10 <fizzie> And an inexplicable physics labwork course, though I don't know how mandatory that was. Maybe it was this "with extra science" option I somehow ended up with, which included supersized maths and physics compared to the regular CSE study program contents.
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22:16:38 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Absurdly.
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22:40:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I have a depressing feeling that traffic analysis will show a noticeable drop in traffic over the last week.
22:41:53 <Phantom_Hoover> You try reasoning with him, he had no quarrel with you.
22:41:54 <pikhq_> No elliott means conversation isn't guaranteed 20 hours a day.
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22:46:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Saying the reason he left is not the reason I think he left.
22:49:17 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: fnord in the aarhus math department is worth a read.
22:49:39 <Gregor> I wonder which log he's reading DURPADURPA
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23:01:33 <Gregor> I've been inspired to add a "stalker" interface to glogbot's logs :P
23:01:38 <Phantom_Hoover> 22:53:38: <Gregor> Then why logread :P ← pikhq messaged him.
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23:05:27 <Gregor> nottwo: Your web page is extremely elucidating :P
23:07:39 <nottwo> Gregor: yeah, i'm still in stealth mode :)
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23:09:08 <oerjan> you're a few hours late for him
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23:29:59 <Gregor> http://gregorr.dyndns.org:8080/logs/stalker.php?channel=_esoteric Stalker mode!
23:30:15 <Gregor> Viola as in "voila" :P
23:31:06 <oerjan> what's that page supposed to do
23:31:30 <Gregor> It's for people who want to actively logread the channel without actually being in it :P
23:31:53 <oerjan> well anyway it doesn't work in IE
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23:32:28 <Gregor> I care ALMOST as much as I care about making it work on Netscape 4.
23:32:40 <Gregor> It'll work on IE9 btw, and probably IE8.
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23:32:46 <Gregor> So you're in some kind of version hell.
23:33:05 <Gregor> Oh, then I guess it won't :P
23:33:08 <Gregor> Oh well, I don't care at all.
23:33:13 <Gregor> You should use a browser that doesn't blow.
23:54:58 <Gregor> http://programming-motherfucker.com/
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