< 1301875444 214719 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1301875447 149621 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1301875458 293997 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1301875659 269179 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1301875660 994448 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1301875667 73644 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1301876191 665109 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.32 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1301876507 172797 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1301876520 942226 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301876920 989385 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, :(:( < 1301877394 259011 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel guilty for not donating now < 1301877519 657566 :javawizard!alex@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301877525 718137 :jcp!alex@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1301877527 42153 :EgoBot!Gregor@codu.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1301877527 991604 :javawizard!alex@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 NICK :jcp < 1301877533 227609 :Zuu!zuu@unaffiliated/zuu QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1301877534 30708 :pingveno!~pingveno@c-98-246-133-8.hsd1.or.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1301877537 251785 :Zuu_!zuu@unaffiliated/zuu JOIN :#esoteric < 1301877563 954033 :EgoBot!Gregor@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1301877654 632693 :Guest26140!~variable@bing63.oneida-a.binghamton.edu QUIT :Quit: /dev/io failed < 1301877658 810661 :pingveno!~pingveno@c-98-246-133-8.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1301877674 563187 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1301877753 964143 :augur!~augur@pool-74-96-25-130.washdc.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1301878413 491937 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1301878427 289600 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's 'patamagic. And also 'pataprogramming. < 1301878474 404267 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1301878480 578657 :quintopia!~quintopia@74.117.158.92 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301878480 741592 :quintopia!~quintopia@74.117.158.92 QUIT :Changing host < 1301878480 741715 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia JOIN :#esoteric < 1301878483 112057 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1301878620 149440 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1301878721 731163 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hay! I did not receive NickServ and ChanServ notices immediately, it took a few seconds after I joined, and then those notices are on. < 1301878725 129202 :Mannerisky!~mannerisk@71-38-40-244.frgo.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1301878916 371403 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1301879529 57469 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1301880484 61393 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I added all of the spell/feats in gopher too, now it is not limited to HTTP only. < 1301880493 750874 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You can still access on HTTP as well) < 1301880675 634829 :pumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod NICK :hypnotoad < 1301880683 451347 :hypnotoad!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod NICK :copumpkin < 1301880731 508989 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like this spell? < 1301880902 694214 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you sure? < 1301881099 573026 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you sure? < 1301881750 78964 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to cast the spell called "Break Into Debugger" (Sor/Wiz 9) < 1301881759 58161 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Welp, looks like I'll be taking dlsym@libdl.so as second prize :P < 1301881840 923154 :iconmaster!~iconmaste@209.150.235.10 QUIT :Quit: I wish I had something witty to put here... < 1301881858 330109 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Did you lose libc.so so you put libdl.so instead? Or, is something else? < 1301881869 208958 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I already had libdl.so < 1301881878 818605 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yes, I will not be getting libc. < 1301881902 342814 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. < 1301881921 94448 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :who got libc < 1301881923 308126 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now are you going to sue everyone on this channel because you did not get libc? < 1301882850 609942 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com QUIT :Quit: create a file in your home directory called "README"--and have the file contain the words: README: No such file or directory < 1301883352 55416 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1301883685 354608 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : why is this not working < 1301883758 279143 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah `quote is buggy with actual regexes. i've known for a while but i have nowhere near enough understanding of shell escaping to fix it. < 1301883788 85357 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i assume the passing through shell breaks it.) < 1301883828 956186 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or i vaguely recall, it may be that test for a number which did something screwy < 1301883860 820775 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :delving into even more obscure shell details. < 1301883974 887888 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :in other news, i should learn to read the rest of log before commenting. < 1301883993 254391 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(WHAT DO YOU MEAN THAT'S NOT NEWS) < 1301884045 546977 :augur!~augur@pool-74-96-25-130.washdc.east.verizon.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1301884047 796856 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1301884215 259332 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301884475 79355 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott: "borkelde"? < 1301884484 535626 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ancient norse goddess of mayhem < 1301884536 509616 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just received IM Spam < 1301884545 287891 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It used the praise.hm URL shortener... < 1301885501 43046 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : Now are you going to sue everyone on this channel because you did not get libc? < 1301885519 39681 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :no use suing people who are too poor to contribute, is there. < 1301885547 176414 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :-!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: create a file in your home directory called "README"--and have the file contain the words: README: No such file or directory). < 1301885550 309841 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :cute. < 1301885594 721648 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.32 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301885725 861301 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.32 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301885728 516932 :nooga!nooga@jasminek.net QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301886065 458743 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301886066 12909 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301886068 486491 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301886070 791452 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301886071 908897 :Ilari_antrcomp!~user@2002:5870:3714:0:20e:a6ff:fe6f:2288 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301886074 132704 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301886074 317786 :mycroftiv!~ircguy@h69-128-47-242.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301886288 640703 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.32 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301886291 412506 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.32 NICK :Guest20296 < 1301886307 201751 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1301886307 375117 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1301886307 375245 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1301886307 375324 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1301886307 375400 :Ilari_antrcomp!~user@2002:5870:3714:0:20e:a6ff:fe6f:2288 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301886307 375473 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1301886307 375546 :mycroftiv!~ircguy@h69-128-47-242.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1301886313 336598 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1301886315 95720 :nooga!nooga@jasminek.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1301886397 913511 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 251 seconds < 1301887110 74335 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: halp < 1301887122 190859 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1301887158 370732 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do i break the select method form all input objects in the DOM on all webpages via greasemonkey? < 1301887177 984612 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :HMTLInputElement.prototype.select = empty function doesn't work < 1301887186 604935 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think because it gets run after the page is loaded maybe? < 1301887215 300486 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :do i need to loop over dom and break them all individually? < 1301887251 813539 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're only trying to break it from JS' perspective, right? < 1301887257 95326 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric : yes < 1301887286 670933 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't want a page to be able to do auto-highlighting on mouseovers and such < 1301887300 70150 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :In principle that should work. But it could just be unconfigurable. Have you checked if HTMLInputElement.prototype.select actually changed? < 1301887338 957592 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, no...interwebs tell me that works though < 1301887343 655979 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually < 1301887375 214513 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there an about: page for the dom inspector? < 1301887425 355562 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1301887476 137341 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :nvm found an add-on < 1301887911 891240 :Gregor`!Gregor@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1301887977 8766 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1301887979 180774 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1301888097 377591 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1301888182 744101 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :DOM inspector does not let me see the contents of "prototype" < 1301888409 960217 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301889325 985503 :Guest20296!~augur@129.2.129.32 NICK :augur < 1301889342 236621 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1301889342 719871 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1301889343 50972 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1301889599 805959 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1301889642 936316 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1301890008 310694 :wareya_!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1301890080 877180 :mycrofti1!~ircguy@h69-128-47-242.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1301890147 537558 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301890149 116911 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301890149 660846 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301890154 699102 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301890155 884749 :Ilari_antrcomp!~user@2002:5870:3714:0:20e:a6ff:fe6f:2288 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301890158 271508 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301890158 467213 :mycroftiv!~ircguy@h69-128-47-242.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301890160 360378 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1301890479 480185 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1301890479 645316 :Ilari_antrcomp!~user@2002:5870:3714:0:20e:a6ff:fe6f:2288 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301890752 321649 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1301890909 882557 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1301892059 316641 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@093105167222.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1301892432 430002 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@093105167222.elblag.vectranet.pl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1301892439 528112 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@093105167222.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1301893265 521225 :Gregor`!Gregor@codu.org NICK :Gregor < 1301893326 739645 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.32 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1301893655 466938 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@093105167222.elblag.vectranet.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1301894799 359361 :augur!~augur@208.58.6.161 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301895696 859329 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1301898751 341968 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1301898777 544144 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1301900567 595612 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1301903000 378384 :mtve!~mtve@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301905220 607358 :lifthras1ir!~lifthrasi@61.251.165.38 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301905239 509577 :shachaf_!~shachaf@208.69.183.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301905286 418708 :nottwo_!~trannie@nottwo.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1301905294 496445 :shachaf!~shachaf@208.69.183.87 QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1301905301 961628 :shachaf_!~shachaf@208.69.183.87 NICK :shachaf < 1301905390 240830 :rodgort!~rodgort@li125-242.members.linode.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301905390 920875 :cheater00!~cheater@g229030021.adsl.alicedsl.de QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301905395 790883 :clog!nef@bespin.org QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301905396 263162 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.251.165.38 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301905397 412372 :nottwo!~trannie@nottwo.org QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301905403 630500 :jcp!alex@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301905405 585856 :Leonidas!~Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301905406 177438 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301905408 949120 :jcp!alex@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301905409 113929 :Leonidas!~Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1301905409 114078 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan JOIN :#esoteric < 1301905806 433017 :rodgort!~rodgort@li125-242.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1301905956 595024 :cheater00!~cheater@g229030021.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1301908290 314831 :Zuu!zuu@77.215.149.86 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301908290 718241 :Zuu!zuu@77.215.149.86 QUIT :Changing host < 1301908290 883011 :Zuu!zuu@unaffiliated/zuu JOIN :#esoteric < 1301908350 302960 :coppro_!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1301908361 718237 :Zuu_!zuu@unaffiliated/zuu QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301908361 883202 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301908362 220510 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:3714::1 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301908416 470946 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:3714::1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301910016 126368 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-31-113.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1301910016 292133 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-31-113.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host < 1301910016 292304 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1301910043 290920 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301910045 717512 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301910047 77788 :Deewiant_!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301910047 460666 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301910054 216082 :yiyus!1242712427@je.je.je QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301910147 17942 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:3714::1 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1301910220 84356 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:3714::1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301910317 297690 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1301910317 463167 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1301910317 463314 :yiyus!1242712427@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1301910729 689719 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1301912347 531418 :mycroftiv!~ircguy@h69-128-47-242.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1301912419 724223 :Gregor`!Gregor@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1301912439 442968 :mycrofti1!~ircguy@h69-128-47-242.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1301912442 913992 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1301912993 451719 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :freenode seems somewhat unstable today < 1301912993 638453 :clog!nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1301913265 683497 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps they're still patching. < 1301913268 950078 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1301913291 76258 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Re "[Global Notice] Hi folks! As you'll have noticed, we've been having some connectivity problems tonight. We're working on patching things together just now." about seven hours ago.) < 1301913304 386547 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1301913322 810609 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1301913326 62072 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I missed that one < 1301913848 73565 :cheater-!~cheater@e181132093.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1301913976 818808 :cheater00!~cheater@g229030021.adsl.alicedsl.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1301914178 386712 :Slereah!x@ANantes-259-1-15-160.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1301914568 349266 :Slereah!x@ANantes-259-1-8-117.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1301914828 407466 :shachaf!~shachaf@208.69.183.87 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1301914858 548971 :shachaf!~shachaf@208.69.183.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301915393 740655 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1301915549 296200 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1301915573 764949 :wareya_!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1301915574 305699 :Gregor`!Gregor@codu.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1301915580 5637 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1301915677 763819 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1301915703 743227 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org NICK :Guest79498 < 1301917068 152269 :Guest79498!Gregor@codu.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1301917069 899113 :cheater-!~cheater@e181132093.adsl.alicedsl.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1301917115 868184 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1301917141 798615 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org NICK :Guest96426 < 1301917168 851767 :cheater-!~cheater@e181132093.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1301918126 870020 :cheater-!~cheater@e181132093.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey guys < 1301918133 415603 :cheater-!~cheater@e181132093.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there any markov bot plugins for xchat? < 1301918214 5088 :cheater-!~cheater@e181132093.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's another channel where people speak german and they keep on accusing me of being a markov bot < 1301918224 656951 :cheater-!~cheater@e181132093.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i thought i should actually set up a markov bot that could chat for me every now and then < 1301918457 4029 :cheater00!~cheater@g230230089.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1301918575 791749 :cheater-!~cheater@e181132093.adsl.alicedsl.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1301919892 280555 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.49.11 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301919940 15645 :Guest96426!Gregor@codu.org NICK :Gregor < 1301920678 592483 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1301921721 191009 :coppro_!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca NICK :coppro < 1301922420 105409 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1301922423 927626 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1301923981 204645 :augur!~augur@208.58.6.161 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1301924342 544289 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1301924468 767955 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-13-135.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1301924599 311985 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1301925917 573142 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.32 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301925960 792814 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1301926017 299829 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301926017 508546 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301926020 299919 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:3714::1 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301926020 465426 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301926026 184199 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301926027 58365 :Ilari_antrcomp!~user@2002:5870:3714:0:20e:a6ff:fe6f:2288 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301926093 338838 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1301926093 504640 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1301926093 504805 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:3714::1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301926093 504905 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1301926093 504985 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1301926093 505063 :Ilari_antrcomp!~user@2002:5870:3714:0:20e:a6ff:fe6f:2288 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301926809 612212 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301926809 942994 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301926813 668315 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:3714::1 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301926813 668457 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301926819 287183 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301926819 452408 :Ilari_antrcomp!~user@2002:5870:3714:0:20e:a6ff:fe6f:2288 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301926840 857644 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1301926841 400908 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1301926841 401124 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:3714::1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301926841 401205 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1301926841 401280 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1301926841 401356 :Ilari_antrcomp!~user@2002:5870:3714:0:20e:a6ff:fe6f:2288 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301927359 23849 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.32 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1301927575 775022 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.32 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301928477 866236 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1301928599 790823 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1301928717 145095 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1301928770 166958 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@74.207.243.105 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301928878 61872 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@93.105.167.222 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301928962 6075 :pumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1301929044 136093 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1301929282 678924 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301930265 719394 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.49.11 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1301930788 799417 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301931146 847098 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:3714::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :APNIC down 0.03: 128k+32k+16k+2x1k+256+/32+2x/48 to Australia, 64k to China, 512 to Indonesia, /32 to India, /48 to Norfolk Island, /48 to New Zealand, /32 to Singapore, 64k to Thailand. < 1301931252 879374 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:3714::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, at least APNIC is now under 12Mi addresses. :-) < 1301931433 988959 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@93.105.167.222 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1301931446 518164 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :When did you project APNIC depletion? Mid-April? < 1301931500 187322 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:3714::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :614.5k addresses in a day. < 1301931505 822704 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:3714::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll compute new projection... < 1301931512 533494 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1301931679 719526 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:3714::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got Thursday 14th April this time. < 1301931736 605048 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:3714::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that date is next week!) < 1301931793 377340 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :How 'bout for North America? < 1301931800 234654 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or is "the Americas" the region? I forget) < 1301932137 17950 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:3714::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :3.64 blocks (58Mi) or so seemingly. < 1301932188 380962 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:3714::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Free, don't know about the allocation rate, it is much much lower than APNIC rate). < 1301932305 819449 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :So we could cruise at least through 2012. < 1301932328 107337 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:3714::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, in the last 30 days lists, the only allocation bigger than 256k not from APNIC is one 1M allocation from AfriNIC. < 1301932423 640544 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps when APNIC runs out the run will spread to other regions... < 1301932474 192110 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless they have rules to prevent asian companies from allocating IPs from elsewhere < 1301932614 473332 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:3714::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that's the worry. < 1301932686 337321 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:3714::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The demand might spread to ARIN and RIPE NCC, quickly depleting those. Then after those have been sucked dry, LACNIC and AfriNIC. < 1301932778 829273 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:3714::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 block of demand (combined) per month would suck ARIN and RIPE NCC out completely in about 6.5 months. < 1301932928 320719 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:3714::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... The default option in Lagerholm's tool previously was "RIR shopping allowed", now that option is no longer the default. < 1301933053 191848 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:3714::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If Asian operators don't shift demand to other regions and if ARIN and RIPE don't suffer similar run-on-the-bank scenarios as APNIC (both fairly dubious assumptions), RIPE would run out late next year (even RIPE itself isn't that optimistic!) and ARIN in early year after that. < 1301933136 391513 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1301933139 776976 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1301933145 971030 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:37:58: quintopia: But he ping-timeout'd, not quit. < 1301933146 524205 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:38:51: i don't think it's a problem with his connection < 1301933146 524419 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:39:15: i bet he just unplugged his computer because he was fed up with us < 1301933146 524524 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :my client can do that sometimes < 1301933148 903991 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:3714::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Full demand shifting would cause everything to run out early next year. < 1301933171 998715 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:28:40: Gregor, :(:( < 1301933172 200570 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:36:34: I feel guilty for not donating now < 1301933178 408533 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see Gregor saying anything beforehand? < 1301933182 285254 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :did the logbot go down? < 1301933210 114874 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I shall not discuss libc.so in-channel, but that doesn't stop other people from doing so :P < 1301933223 96155 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, can you at least confirm that you didn't get it? < 1301933235 388849 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :'twas not meant to be. < 1301933240 917057 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1301933241 542814 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1301933245 903694 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what made people suspect that he didn't get it < 1301933256 30123 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :sgeo just seems to have decided that out of the blue < 1301933264 940413 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: he changed his nick back? < 1301933268 822684 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Facebook. < 1301933274 229769 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :um his nick had been back five years ago < 1301933295 243749 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or the lack of raucous celebration? < 1301933297 669797 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :...what. < 1301933313 502166 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there was raucous celebration, it would have started nowishly :P < 1301933330 777586 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :FWIW, my DNS doesn't realise .so is a TLD yet. < 1301933380 665123 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really? Not your browser? < 1301933417 876689 :elliott_!~elliott@91.105.112.70 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301933457 463069 :elliott_!~elliott@91.105.112.70 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/JdbJ ;; :D < 1301933463 63618 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1301933464 326077 :elliott_!~elliott@91.105.112.70 NICK :elliott < 1301933467 928846 :elliott!~elliott@91.105.112.70 QUIT :Changing host < 1301933468 94688 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1301933635 182471 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:3714::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wonder if IPv6 allocation rates in Asia-Pacific will take some rocket fuel when APNIC IPv4 pool depletes. < 1301933688 749855 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.49.11 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301933781 439718 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:3714::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :... The primary worry with that is if APNIC is fast enough to handle the demand, not that it would deplete APNIC pool (there's over 30 bilion /48s to allocate until half-block threshold is reached, and then there's IANA with 506 blocks). < 1301933826 109306 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, whois fails as well. < 1301933848 338473 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I can get to nic.so. < 1301933853 696396 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: whois would fail because it doesn't know how to whois .so in particular. < 1301933875 754281 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus I don't think they provide a whois-protocol whois server... < 1301933884 954813 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is your browser Chrome, perchance? < 1301933886 272184 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :This TLD has no whois server. < 1301933888 193522 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1301933889 414190 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's like < 1301933892 449143 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the hidden realm < 1301933902 489764 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The nic.so whois says nothing about libc.so. < 1301933904 948588 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has a web-accessible captchawhois :P < 1301933916 854051 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: The auction isn't over yet, and even if it was it wouldn't be allocated yet. < 1301933925 801737 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who's WINNING < 1301933944 670019 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Charlie Sheen. He's a real C programmer. < 1301933949 484238 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anonymous bidder #449 < 1301933964 94013 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remind me which one you are. < 1301933968 137063 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :#442 < 1301933977 613575 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: So close! < 1301933979 749208 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:3714::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oops, calculated that estimate wrong: I get Wednesday 13th April using the current pool size (not pool size after Friday). < 1301933980 470569 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :AKA libdl.so :P < 1301933980 635134 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :X-D < 1301934021 379796 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had an earlier number than the others because I was in the ld-linux.so auction, although I made no bids there. < 1301934141 248285 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:3714::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But for some reason Huston site has APNIC having extra 0.2 free blocks (which would push depletion to ~Friday 15th April). < 1301934146 161508 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, not #whatever in the auction, just in general :P < 1301934151 764084 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking dayum, you had no chance. < 1301934159 745343 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also ld-linux was actually fought over at all? X-D < 1301934413 873006 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: YOU'RE a Forthy kind of person aren't you?! DO YOU WANT TO TRY THE FRTH DEVELOPER PRELEASE < 1301934492 170499 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not that frothy; I'm really actually quite stale. < 1301934543 448551 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:3714::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? Graph on APNIC site is showing only down 0.01, but values for numerious previous days have gone down 0.02 (retroactively!). < 1301934568 372972 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Well, yeah, being almost 30 and all. < 1301934594 765896 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: the ip depletion is causing disruptions in the timestream. we are doomed! < 1301935401 847229 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're mooded < 1301935445 187473 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the moody mod of doom < 1301935532 46585 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : But for some reason Huston site has APNIC having extra 0.2 free blocks (which would push depletion to ~Friday 15th April). <-- and what happens then < 1301935540 325159 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :THE END < 1301935542 686588 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :OF THE WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORLD < 1301935544 531399 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, how long before the LIRs get into issue? < 1301935655 364684 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :issues* < 1301935655 530397 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb phone < 1301935724 328931 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:3714::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No idea how long LIRs have to go. There's certain allocation period (but I don't recall what current APNIC policies about that are). < 1301935729 14974 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the phone call of DOOM < 1301935786 645965 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:3714::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, oh: "CNNIC, the Chinese Registrar and CA have been EV enabled. As part of this, a new EV-enabled Root was added (the old is not EV-enabled)." (opera). Let's just say that certain persons don't trust CNNIC _at_ _all_. < 1301935796 278416 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, aria2c is being a bit slower than usual :/ < 1301935801 72016 :cheater99!~cheater@85.181.136.245 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301935880 21198 :cheater00!~cheater@g230230089.adsl.alicedsl.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1301935927 139919 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :In December 2010 some users requested that the Unity launcher (or dock) be movable from the left to other sides of the screen, but Mark Shuttleworth stated in reply, “I'm afraid that won't work with our broader design goals, so we won't implement that. We want the launcher always close to the Ubuntu button.”[11] < 1301935936 798342 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It SUPPLIES THE CONCEPTUAL ENERGY < 1301935996 322271 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, EV? Is that DNSSEC-related? < 1301936009 718545 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:3714::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Extended Validation (related to SSL certificates). < 1301936017 230720 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. It's Evisceration Vacancies. < 1301936020 8466 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:3714::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing to do with DNSSEC. < 1301936025 933068 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Chinese government can now execute people OVER DNS < 1301936027 800238 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, ah < 1301936039 130885 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :They basically just have a bunch of empty EV records in a domain. < 1301936040 261336 :cheater99!~cheater@85.181.136.245 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi elliott < 1301936043 447516 :cheater99!~cheater@85.181.136.245 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how are you < 1301936047 456909 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you do a DNS lookup, you get trapped in one and eviscerated. < 1301936049 175607 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:3714::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Which .cn apparently doesn't have enabled. < 1301936079 691563 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1301936188 211117 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:3714::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :DNSSEC-enabling .cn would only make .cn vulernable to CNNIC. Giving them EV cert perms in browsers makes everything vulernable to them. < 1301936217 828753 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, hm. Is CNNIC bad? < 1301936225 809616 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, probably < 1301936240 111447 :cheater99!~cheater@85.181.136.245 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/JdbJ < lol < 1301936299 533320 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:3714::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Depends on how tightly China controls it... < 1301936339 310456 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1301936470 578378 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1301936493 603547 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, writing a Magenta parser looks scary < 1301936733 817354 :cheater99!~cheater@85.181.136.245 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Magento? < 1301936786 593596 :cheater99!~cheater@85.181.136.245 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hates the "opensores" web app/store called Magento. < 1301937041 577 :cheater99!~cheater@85.181.136.245 PRIVMSG #esoteric :First, I don't have a damn clue what any of this means anymore. The design was such a twisted mess that there was no way I could go back and add anymore to it. I sure as hell wouldn't want to be the poor sap trying to turn this disaster into a LALR(1) grammar for yacc. That said, I'd love to see someone try. < 1301937043 74703 :cheater99!~cheater@85.181.136.245 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahahahahah < 1301937048 438514 :cheater99!~cheater@85.181.136.245 PRIVMSG #esoteric :good luck elliott. < 1301937070 830585 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :magento, part esolang, part supervillain < 1301937161 701133 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@093105167222.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1301937307 358220 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301937702 719354 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1301937740 249799 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi elliott < 1301937751 95646 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, HP Lovecraft was appalled when he discovered his great-great-grandmother was Welsh. < 1301937790 705938 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're HP Lovecraft's great-great-grandmother? < 1301937853 96166 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Honestly, V*rpal's not paying attention right now. < 1301937860 121340 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH GOD WAIT HE IS < 1301937862 777362 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@093105167222.elblag.vectranet.pl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1301937866 463538 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know not what you talk about. < 1301937881 431758 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How Welsh I am. < 1301937892 394513 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@093105167222.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1301937895 693066 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're Welsh; so? < 1301937901 41698 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@093105167222.elblag.vectranet.pl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1301937908 554293 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : OH GOD WAIT HE IS <-- just back < 1301937911 42289 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1301937922 136527 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, nothing. < 1301937929 846605 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. < 1301937967 395373 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@093105167222.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1301937967 612061 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, Common Lisp actually has if/else < 1301937969 222436 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, I think I might do some sort of fuzzy-matching on highlighting. Would be fun < 1301937971 110262 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, with explicit else < 1301938003 265150 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(loop for i upto 20 < 1301938003 468097 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : if (oddp i) < 1301938003 468283 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : collect i into odds < 1301938003 468391 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : else < 1301938003 468496 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : collect i into evens < 1301938003 468599 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : finally (return (values evens odds))) < 1301938023 852198 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not proper if/else. < 1301938030 832215 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's loop, so it doesn't count. < 1301938040 467868 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :...of course it's loop < 1301938046 179966 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why it surprised me < 1301938046 821424 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :sheesh < 1301938059 967600 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i wouldn't have expected it to pronounce it in quite that way) < 1301938078 864074 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :BF really needs a while/else < 1301938089 22404 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :BF just needs an if :-P < 1301938094 430396 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. if (*p) while (*p) {} else {} < 1301938104 344794 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd let me abbreviate my huge BF Joust program much better < 1301938124 86401 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I finally got it within fizzielance's nesting constraints, by examining the other programs and adding only the cases that actually ran < 1301938133 661475 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :{[...]+}-{...} < 1301938137 873371 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a bit like constant tweaking, but I don't care as it's working around an intepreter failure < 1301938141 582102 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :works for 0/1 booleans < 1301938143 770491 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :does what you said < 1301938145 820305 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of < 1301938150 260287 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, exactly what you said < 1301938154 406235 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it'd matter in BF Joust because of itming < 1301938156 7513 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*timing < 1301938158 763289 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzielance lol < 1301938204 954970 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust anticipation http://sprunge.us/CNiW < 1301938215 839804 :EgoBot!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Score for ais523_anticipation: 40.2 < 1301938237 760961 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ defence program that beats slowpoke < 1301938249 492118 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that made me think Culture ship names, then I tried to think why, then I realised that an (IIRC obnoxious) Wikipedian used that Culture ship name as a username for a while < 1301938251 33703 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately, I figured out how to adapt slowpoke's strategy in a way which probably is completely fatal to defence < 1301938256 490057 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I regretted my auto-thinking < 1301938263 799202 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you said that /last/ time too < 1301938274 571902 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what, that slowpoke was fatal? < 1301938275 102864 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Culture ship in question is Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The) < 1301938282 181041 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Let's just pretend I've memorised every Culture ship name without ever reading the novels) < 1301938284 542073 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes < 1301938290 793808 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps < 1301938314 770580 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but anticipation-style strategies can only work by assuming the program in question uses consistent timings < 1301938326 860661 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I worked out how to make slowpoke vary its attack timing < 1301938384 414476 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, the person who used that name has /way/ too many pseudonyms < 1301938537 125168 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://libdl.so/ <-- best web page ever? < 1301938546 525116 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Not URL, page) < 1301938577 309565 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1301938582 649324 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not, but it's good for a quick laugh < 1301938584 341125 :cheater99!~cheater@85.181.136.245 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gregor richards? < 1301938591 276747 :cheater99!~cheater@85.181.136.245 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok gregor... now i know your powerword < 1301938596 405195 :cheater99!~cheater@85.181.136.245 PRIVMSG #esoteric :>:D < 1301938599 918946 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :SO HOW MANY THOUSANDS DID THAT ONE COST MR. GREGOR "MONEYBAGS" RICHARDS [U+PRBLM TROLL FACE] < 1301938623 506147 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what's the ;s in anticipation? < 1301938631 486033 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: ... my ... name? < 1301938632 666568 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :;s? < 1301938640 620933 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: There was no auction. $10 :P < 1301938641 244673 :cheater99!~cheater@85.181.136.245 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1301938647 461285 :cheater99!~cheater@85.181.136.245 PRIVMSG #esoteric :your powerword. check it on ED. < 1301938654 233554 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :>>>(-)*20<(-)*20<(-)*20<(+)*108; < 1301938654 777519 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: My name isn't a secret. My real name is on my /whois . < 1301938656 445832 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :all one of them < 1301938657 150021 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I must have been putting trailing semicolons out out of habit < 1301938660 728732 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :X-D < 1301938670 731696 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ()*14 stuff is debug cod < 1301938670 909518 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: No, your REAL NAME < 1301938672 331582 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*code < 1301938676 883186 :cheater99!~cheater@85.181.136.245 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Powerword < 1301938680 732761 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Mrs. Mary Gregor Richards < 1301938682 650745 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :juiced currently notices loops like that and prints them to stderr whenever they execute < 1301938691 635218 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: *Richardson < 1301938695 424068 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is really helpful when debugging < 1301938702 934807 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and other interps ignore them < 1301938721 822950 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: we decided on ()*0 as the comment format; IMO that would be a far superior method < 1301938732 551963 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :because printing all comments in a debug mode is a pretty good idea in bf joust < 1301938741 404169 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: perhaps, but comments are sometimes really long < 1301938744 698351 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :since comments (at least for me) tend to just denote when the warrior starts doing something interesting < 1301938744 962532 :cheater99!~cheater@85.181.136.245 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Revealing to your victim that you know their Powerword: Real Name will cause them to panic, as they suddenly confront the possibility that their Furaffinity posts or the Eagle-Fox hybrid voraphile porn on their DeviantArt account could be sent to their IRL co-workers and friends. Their typical reaction will be to DELETE FUCKING EVERYTHING - fortunately, most good trolls take screenshots. < 1301938747 737420 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :comments and debug tags are inherently different things < 1301938748 705840 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: only /yours/ < 1301938760 911134 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if someone puts the entire code generator in a comment? < 1301938769 520780 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Gregor tried that, the syntax rules made it impossible :) < 1301938776 404797 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[( They're on our flag; time to attack )*0 < 1301938781 781451 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or uses comments to explain their decoy setups? < 1301938787 774132 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[-] ( They're gone! Or are they? )*0 [(Nope)*0 ...] ...] < 1301938799 539093 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's acceptable to print out, IMO < 1301938803 337245 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's easy enough to skip over such things < 1301938805 654721 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not if it's several lines long < 1301938810 800903 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it only happens once < 1301938819 782326 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the code generator for anticipator has huge paragraphs explaining which timings are used by which other programs < 1301938823 186322 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*anticipation < 1301938831 300356 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: OK, well, what if we said that ()%0 was debug? :-D < 1301938841 464610 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1301938854 389027 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially as ({a})%0 should semantically run the a < 1301938861 106522 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(juiced screws up on that case, though, IIRC) < 1301938863 973072 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Don't go ouch, my other idea was ((debug)*0)*-1 < 1301938875 349383 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1301938881 100229 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :precisely :D < 1301938889 743009 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ais523> especially as ({a})%0 should semantically run the a < 1301938891 130986 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :we could use this! < 1301938893 345064 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other advantage of ()*n is that it doesn't need to store any information the interp isn't already storing < 1301938894 632896 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(before{...}after)%0 < 1301938895 691313 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :USEFUL! < 1301938896 946468 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :juiced deletes comments on load < 1301938900 751490 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not ()*n loops < 1301938905 929942 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : especially as ({a})%0 should semantically run the a < 1301938908 81278 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... < 1301938917 922373 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: lance's architecture required deleting ()*n, IIRC < 1301938919 243183 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(comment {a} comment)%0 < 1301938923 805049 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :obvious < 1301938924 34558 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: PRECISELY < 1301938926 802554 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : (before{...}after)%0 USEFUL! < 1301938934 117722 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, not comment < 1301938934 468996 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :debug < 1301938939 631789 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :for which a before/after pair might actually be useful :) < 1301938962 497321 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, so what about proper code comments? < 1301938972 43163 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :we've already agreed those are ()*0 < 1301938980 882351 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I thought that was debug? < 1301938985 256563 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1301938986 607034 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1301938991 280943 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :% < 1301938991 630936 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1301938997 649243 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :although they're more dead code than comments, because they still have to have balanced (), [], etc. < 1301939001 879381 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and can't have {} in them without a ()% in them < 1301939002 707373 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and whatnot < 1301939006 909135 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I wasn't aware of that ()%n existed < 1301939008 653291 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ()s in them still have to be followed by * or %, etc. etc. etc. < 1301939011 752894 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: (a{b}c)%n < 1301939027 753317 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ah well without the {} I meant < 1301939053 732602 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't exist < 1301939136 647419 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION opens a lance directory to start coding < 1301939145 670662 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no deadline, before anyone asks :P < 1301939154 509502 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone have a way to convert a spreadsheet into a LaTeX table? < 1301939160 53722 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what format? < 1301939269 30227 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :.xls AtM, but I can use Calc to convert it. < 1301939350 360272 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ew, use Gnumeric :) < 1301939357 952360 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, OK. < 1301939362 269705 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same difference/ < 1301939469 383989 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1301939470 349001 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :with < 1301939474 746822 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :struct foo { A x; B y; }; < 1301939476 424341 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming you have < 1301939481 705672 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :struct foo blah = ...; < 1301939487 71743 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :B *foo = &foo->y; < 1301939487 667901 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :is < 1301939499 945874 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(struct foo*)(foo - offsetof(struct foo, y)) < 1301939506 856112 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :guaranteed to be a pointer to blah? < 1301939508 563796 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*foo * < 1301939530 639459 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is useful when implementing generic data structures in C. For example, the Linux kernel uses offsetof() to implement container_of(), which allows something like a Mixin type to find the structure that contains it:[3] < 1301939531 103367 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define container_of(ptr, type, member) ({ \ < 1301939531 267641 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : const typeof( ((type *)0)->member ) *__mptr = (ptr); \ < 1301939531 267800 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : (type *)( (char *)__mptr - offsetof(type,member) );}) < 1301939531 267908 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :This macro is used to retrieve an enclosing structure from a pointer to a nested element, such as this iteration of a linked list of my_struct objects: < 1301939533 72503 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems so < 1301939786 327813 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, convert it to csv, then a fairly simple sed script should be able to do the rest < 1301939830 152924 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Of course, everyone has time to make a sed script to do tasks which should be routine enough for preëxisting automation. < 1301939831 694082 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :might need some manual adjustment for header < 1301939831 859531 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :still should be easy to automate it < 1301939864 969990 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: You have time to whine on IRC, you have time to write a tiny sed script. < 1301939867 239035 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, that looks cool < 1301939876 553463 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pitty is is not portable < 1301939886 616924 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless I misremember < 1301939895 12936 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: offsetof is C90 < 1301939898 506526 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that container_of is nonportable, though < 1301939905 963206 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it typeof that isn't < 1301939913 73770 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :either typeof or offsetof is non-portable < 1301939946 348884 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :typeof is nonportable, but container_of is nonportable also because of ((type *0)-> < 1301939954 903547 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*no first ( < 1301939959 194760 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :er wait < 1301939962 71880 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*((type *)0)-> < 1301939983 518454 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, uh, you mean you hate coding? And I was trying to be helpful. I know of no such tool but suggested a somewhat easy way to convert very large tables < 1301940339 499031 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1301940353 325662 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: how much did your original huge program nest? < 1301940558 493392 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@093105167222.elblag.vectranet.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1301940660 243001 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, C could really do with generics < 1301940727 272729 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you could do "C with templates" to simulate this ;) < 1301940738 732437 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, but more seriously. Have a look at the C99 header tgmath.h < 1301940768 147195 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :funnily there is no pure C way to implement tgmath.h < 1301940808 40899 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I'm not even sure that's true < 1301940812 537694 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be really ugly though :) < 1301940839 997946 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: well, if you knew certain things about sizeof... < 1301940853 215704 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it can be implemented _for almost any given implementation_ in pure C < 1301940870 887182 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the vast majority of implementations I would guess have different sizes of all of the relevant types < 1301940957 376826 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1301940967 926969 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, not true. Few embedded things do. < 1301940971 312409 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it nests 1 per cycle it waits < 1301940973 726839 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and isn't embedded systems something like 80%-90% of the computers in the world? Read that somewhere.. < 1301940973 892522 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :aren't* < 1301940978 365741 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I mean, source code nesting depth < 1301940981 587951 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :() and [] and {} combined < 1301940989 171969 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*combined < 1301940992 844798 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 more, I think < 1301940998 288106 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe 3 more < 1301941000 283947 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yeah, but i hope most embedded systems don't run C < 1301941004 811596 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(they probably do, but I hope they don't) < 1301941007 407889 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the code is pretty simple, just doesn't compress well < 1301941009 718410 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's not an answer, the answer is constant < 1301941018 531702 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know it broke fizziewhateverlance's limit < 1301941033 858373 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: indeed, 1 per cycle it waits, which is a value I set when writing the code < 1301941038 416312 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I originally had it at 1600 < 1301941046 129798 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, wasn't it more? < 1301941071 385801 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm wondering how high to set the stack limit, or alternatively, whether I really must dynamically allocate) < 1301941145 906997 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd happily put it all the way up at 100000 if I thought it would help, although it'd make the program much longer < 1301941157 87145 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :-rw-r--r-- 1 ais523 ais523 204754 2011-04-04 05:18 anticipation.bj < 1301941166 12197 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt I'd go much above 2000 or so without exceeding the 1MB limit < 1301941193 783344 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaargh < 1301941198 224077 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :20 lines in half a second < 1301941202 832730 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet I had no lag elsewhere < 1301941204 577366 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :freenode fail < 1301941224 696654 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: there is no 1 meg limit < 1301941229 917706 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless fizzielance has one < 1301941236 116866 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :" elliott: it nests 1 per cycle it waits" to " I doubt I'd go much above 2000 or so without exceeding the 1MB limit" arrived in a single second < 1301941241 691987 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: k < 1301941264 484203 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I think it might be interesting to do BF Joust with a nesting restriction on expanded [] < 1301941268 653961 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a really small one, say 16 < 1301941273 224435 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, but that's not the language we're using :) < 1301941279 58963 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd probably make ()% redundant < 1301941286 281161 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it'd get rid of slowpoke and improved-slowpoke-style things < 1301941288 102639 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'll probably just malloc a 1,048,576 structures big thing for the nesting stack < 1301941294 152994 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe smaller, a struct seems to be... < 1301941297 720694 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'll hold off on improved-slowpoke in case it truly is impossible to defend against) < 1301941304 483040 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 + 4 + 4 + 4 < 1301941308 338178 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :on both 32-bit and 64-bit < 1301941319 113275 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that would be 16 megabytes :) < 1301941327 378260 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :otoh, 16 megabytes isn't much to allocate < 1301941333 403761 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :doing it dynamically should be easy < 1301941334 495580 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :otooh, nobody is going to nest _that_ much < 1301941337 365611 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : Vorpal: yeah, but i hope most embedded systems don't run C <-- what do you expect them to run < 1301941338 193021 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, I can just use the cycle limit < 1301941338 646371 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh < 1301941343 592344 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in case you're wondering, joust allocates the stack during the parser < 1301941344 640407 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a literal hard limit < 1301941347 531606 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*juicd < 1301941351 86773 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*juiced < 1301941357 440843 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it isn't hard, but manual memory management angers me anyway < 1301941360 365885 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: asm or forth < 1301941366 346384 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, the nesting stack's stored in the same structs that the program is < 1301941379 92411 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, C is the majority as far as I know. Then there is a bit of ADA and asm. And a few thiny other languages including forth. < 1301941384 381785 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it doesn't even compile to jumps? lol < 1301941394 404599 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, do ada is getting a lot more rare very quickly < 1301941396 421119 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: *Ada < 1301941397 216831 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :though* < 1301941399 16221 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird typo < 1301941402 732658 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you've made that typo like 48734953948593475893745793845793459837598345 times < 1301941405 579131 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it effectively does < 1301941407 948656 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's more structured < 1301941408 649361 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it ais523 < 1301941428 70379 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, but yeah, C very clearly dominates < 1301941442 817755 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, when camelcased is opcode Opcode or OpCode? < 1301941450 575768 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: unfortunately. < 1301941500 237064 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, and in embedded the ISA bus isn't still quite dead yet. Sadly. < 1301941504 707577 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is dying, but not there yet. < 1301941511 80685 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not joking. < 1301941547 485260 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh noes? isa isn't that old < 1301941565 533603 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ISA was quite horrible < 1301941582 992642 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(before objecting that it was invented in 1981, remember that i've been reading about Multics and identifying with a lot of the design goals and implementation, and that was in 1969) < 1301941591 848483 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait < 1301941594 187343 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :multics started in 1964 < 1301941595 316051 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :even earlier < 1301941617 391124 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, does that mean you think everything old was better? < 1301941627 186604 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it just means that i've looked a lot further back than most people :) < 1301941638 940576 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and I seem to like ALGOL 60 quite well, based on what ais523's said and some other things < 1301941644 724692 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ofc Lisp is even older) < 1301941666 947293 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you should go write machine code on punch cards < 1301941677 91506 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : UR JUST A MINDLESS OLDIE CONSERVATIVE < 1301941678 179703 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : no < 1301941682 521301 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :assembler? You got to be kidding < 1301941682 685875 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : GO DO OLD THINGS < 1301941702 396975 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :been practising your reading comprehension i see :) < 1301941713 245654 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, no I didn't say that :P < 1301941713 436379 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I agree multics had some good points < 1301941722 260281 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :come on. < 1301941734 654904 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: does your hardware pass the man or boy test? < 1301941739 375461 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, also I never said I wouldn't want to play with punch cards myself! < 1301941742 574426 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I would!) < 1301941755 3261 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I haven't looked at it yet < 1301941758 3116 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: that kind of fetish will get you in hospital with papercuts all over < 1301941764 581138 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's basically a set of the insanity of call by name < 1301941767 971135 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, har har < 1301941769 759500 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should do, because it's harder for it to happen incorrectly than correctly < 1301941780 207509 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I know the test exists, and more or less what it tests) < 1301941780 727746 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: (the answer is -67, but Knuth thought it was -121 in the original paper, that's how hard it is :D) < 1301941809 463777 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what is this test you are talking about? < 1301941811 266754 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's difficult in hardware is very different from what's difficult in software < 1301941811 432131 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: so does your compiler work on ICA code or ALGOL 60 code? < 1301941814 6839 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_or_boy_test < 1301941858 281563 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it works on ICA parsetrees, atm < 1301941865 313645 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1301941871 913301 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, that program doesn't compile into hardware, it uses an illegal sort of recursion < 1301941928 152534 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the max cycles? 1 M? 100 k? < 1301941935 281670 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(hardware has to be finite-state; that means restricting what's allowed) < 1301941937 162382 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :in jouoouououououououost, i mean < 1301941943 34804 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :100k < 1301941951 14055 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the normally agreed-upon value nowadays < 1301942023 90345 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: err, no < 1301942028 226043 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't think < 1301942031 373943 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that was a bug in egojoust, IIRC < 1301942036 560022 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :'s repetition code < 1301942039 488659 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, the bug made it interpret -1 as 10k < 1301942040 906553 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than 10k < 1301942043 503170 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*rather than 100k < 1301942081 771766 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, okay < 1301942197 8890 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, C needs generics :) < 1301942206 222452 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't even define a stack in C! < 1301942228 257643 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :either you have (1) ugly (void *) munging requiring extraneous allocation with stacks of structures, < 1301942235 379212 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you can with macros < 1301942240 725970 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(2) both an array and an index variable that are separate, < 1301942241 418387 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1301942249 477802 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(3) a macro that defines a bunch of types and functions for working on a specific type < 1301942259 100377 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :such a macro is hideously ugly and causes binary bloat < 1301942261 944908 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it can take a type as parameter to the macro < 1301942282 15902 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's actually a final option, a bunch of functions that take sizeofs and a bunch of macros that call them with the appropriate sizes, but that's insanely ugly too. < 1301942283 450392 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a pain to code < 1301942299 212253 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you could do it as a linked list < 1301942311 330179 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh, that's what the function solutions were < 1301942317 675286 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, a linked list is pretty inefficient for a stack in C < 1301942319 691533 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :because malloc is slow < 1301942328 279574 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, oh, I though the functions operated on an array of some sort < 1301942329 928004 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :a growing away is much better, but even more work to code < 1301942345 193679 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, so stop coding C < 1301942356 439398 :Wamanuz4!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1301942365 474037 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd still have to write my own growing array in Haskell I think :-D < 1301942369 549795 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe the vector package has that < 1301942379 64094 :Wamanuz3!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1301942381 670575 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, surely perl has this? < 1301942383 457411 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : XD < 1301942390 595494 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway C is more useful, since EgoBot's Haskell environment is uncertain < 1301942397 880829 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also, because BF Joust execution is quite intensive < 1301942400 302919 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I think the Alternative Vote campaining's starting to start in earnest; the government sent out leaflets explaining what the vote was about, and links to the campaign websites: http://www.yestofairervotes.org/ http://www.no2av.org/ < 1301942401 950301 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I like it to be fast < 1301942404 700621 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, anyway it would be trivial to do in scheme < 1301942414 438965 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love how the "no" campaign indirectly calls the US a third world country < 1301942415 332595 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it started a while ago < 1301942428 40108 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, use lambdabot? < 1301942435 464971 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well, yesterday's when all the leafleting, etc, reached my house < 1301942441 776734 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1301942451 51115 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, so do it in ASM! < 1301942457 469149 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :total freedom < 1301942462 945674 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: not portable, even more work to code generic things < 1301942487 747324 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: are opinion polls out yet? < 1301942497 663555 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I don't think so < 1301942499 615601 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: heh, howso? < 1301942502 927318 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I haven't really looked < 1301942503 356429 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'd expect the yes campaign to do that < 1301942509 164430 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"all first-world countries have a sane voting system!" < 1301942543 921247 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ugh @ the yes site, just because bad people vote no on AV doesn't mean it's a good idea (it is, but for better reasons altogether) < 1301942545 894932 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the no campaign seems to be based on two points: a) it's expensive, b) it means that the winner will be chosen by back-room deals between politicians rather than who people actually voted for < 1301942550 532092 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :interestingly, Java-style generics would actually be a good fit for C, but they won't work because sizeof < 1301942553 68863 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand b) < 1301942561 512316 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you forgot c) ONE PERSON ONE VOTE LOL I AM RETARDED < 1301942563 931530 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, do they have a point, or are they just lying in order to try to confuse people? < 1301942567 537885 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: they didn't list that < 1301942576 426421 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's the "slogan" on their website, IIRC < 1301942579 347506 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1301942586 266307 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1301942592 71701 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :see top-right corner image of http://www.no2av.org/ < 1301942612 942916 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one thing I note about the No campaign is that there's a very strong indication, if not spelt out, of "all sane politicians oppose AV, AV is a Lib Dem conspiracy to let Nick Clegg become dictator!" < 1301942613 577315 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The Alternative Vote will be wrong for BRitain and wrong for the Labour Party." < 1301942620 674308 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, no2av looks like it might get people to actually vote yes :-D < 1301942651 466496 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks strongly targeted at Labour voters, to me < 1301942659 95194 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and people who voted Lib Dem but regretted the decision < 1301942665 154035 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately, that may well be > 50% of the country < 1301942666 575848 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I suppose the Tories have already made up their minds < 1301942679 186926 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not certain they have < 1301942695 973481 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :people who have looked into the maths think that AV would probably be good for the Tories short-term, and bad long-term < 1301942698 892824 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I wonder if most people regret voting for the Lib Dems because they've been spineless, or because they've decided that the current government is TOO LEFT WING? < 1301942704 211569 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the former is the sane reason, but I fear it might be the latter < 1301942715 72921 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: because they threw in with the Conservatives < 1301942720 459034 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: so the former :) < 1301942742 143365 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I wouldn't have minded the Coalition if it wasn't effectively the Conservatives governing with the name of the Lib Dems) < 1301942752 771881 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm the other way round, I didn't manage to vote Lib Dem due to a mixup (despite trying), but don't regret the result of the election < 1301942753 31841 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : coppro: I think the Alternative Vote campaining's starting to start in earnest; the government sent out leaflets explaining what the vote was about, and links to the campaign websites: http://www.yestofairervotes.org/ http://www.no2av.org/ <-- which country? < 1301942753 284434 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah UK < 1301942753 450247 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so what is this change really about? < 1301942753 641391 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ais523: what is the actual suggested change here? < 1301942753 806784 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :a saner voting system would be good for UK. But it needs to be saner. < 1301942760 129372 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: YAY LAG < 1301942764 761173 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :all those mesages just came at once < 1301942765 102601 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what? < 1301942770 615631 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, oh < 1301942776 590870 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : a saner voting system would be good for UK. But it needs to be saner. < 1301942779 109465 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :than what, AV? < 1301942782 543380 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :AV is perfectly sane < 1301942784 82757 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: the suggested change is to replace a first-past-the-post voting system with alternative-vote < 1301942785 895468 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, than your old one < 1301942789 269009 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just instant-runoff < 1301942792 158832 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :AV is definitely saner than FPTP < 1301942794 955555 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I got your messages in bursts btw < 1301942796 972756 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because most things are saner than FPTP < 1301942820 285011 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm < 1301942823 262960 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, in all the AV elections I've participated in so far (at university), it's been pretty sane for one-person-elected results < 1301942847 75658 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :one person elected stuff is where you get into issues < 1301942848 71925 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know from personal experience that STV (the generalised version to select more than one seat) is mostly sane, but gets extremely insane in edge cases < 1301942857 730256 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ROI use IRV for presidential elections < 1301942860 718847 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :never ever try to elect fourteen candidates to twelve places like that < 1301942862 298698 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :quick, let's start the propaganda machine! < 1301942864 938855 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not saying that the Swedish one very good, but it is quite okay < 1301942892 489258 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yay for Stochastic votes, the only mathematically sane voting system! < 1301942897 406696 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :the swedish what? < 1301942898 19240 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stochastic! < 1301942903 63401 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just about to say that. < 1301942904 431584 :calamari!~calamari@ip70-162-184-205.ph.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1301942914 42016 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hereby propose all 0 #esoteric elections be held with stochastic voting < 1301942922 100657 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm not sure stochastic voting is quite sane on such a small scale, though :)) < 1301942934 580122 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, voting system. It is saner than the old UK one. And than the US one. < 1301942949 22947 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable PRIVMSG #esoteric :by definition no voting system is good < 1301942949 866870 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: how does that work? everyone votes, then you choose a result at random? < 1301942960 231641 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's brilliant, but no, and I have definitely told you about it before < 1301942967 733878 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's pretty sane I think, everything is excessively sane in sweden... except the government, of course < 1301942979 566485 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "In each riding, ballots cast are counted. A random candidate is selected with a distribution proportional to the number of votes for each candidate. The selected candidate wins the seat." < 1301942992 796020 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, that's slightly saner < 1301942995 748751 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but people will still hate it < 1301942996 547839 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's much saner < 1301942998 40914 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: this is the only voting system in which the only rational choice is to vote for your preference < 1301943007 139268 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: people will hate it and it'll never be implemented, but there is no logical reason to hate it < 1301943017 23375 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it completely eliminates tactical voting and other such nonsense < 1301943025 302872 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: no it does not < 1301943033 753597 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: it eliminates tactical voting being _rational_ < 1301943038 509092 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it does not < 1301943041 46129 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it does < 1301943042 77865 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: but that doesn't mean the winner we be reflective of the group < 1301943054 564231 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: no, no it does not < 1301943056 170326 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: it seems to get around Arrow's Theorem by having a nondeterministic result < 1301943064 564022 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: are you going to answer why, or are you just going to say it's not? < 1301943083 100611 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, that I know < 1301943090 520831 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : it's pretty sane I think, everything is excessively sane in sweden... except the government, of course <-- :D < 1301943095 560650 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: what about this: /everyone/ voted for is elected, and they make collective decisions by voting themselves, with voting power proportional to the number of people who voted for them < 1301943102 245392 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, that's just Liquid Democracy, isn't it? < 1301943108 926728 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: parties < 1301943117 908252 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: that's not an answer, let alone a proof < 1301943122 901921 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: < 1301943128 977048 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: ? < 1301943131 914573 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://blog.computationalcomplexity.org/2011/03/unusual-voting-scheme.html < 1301943139 456991 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :any constituency system has the fundamental flaw that a voter may want to vote for a less preferred person in order to get a more preferred overall outcome < 1301943154 320132 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: all the _individual_ elections are completely fair < 1301943163 521757 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want candidate A in the seat, there is no reason not to vote for candidate A < 1301943168 371111 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: in this case, you _don't_ want candidate A in the seat < 1301943171 320013 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: this is true < 1301943182 170526 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :your ideal world has candidate A in the seat, but the current world except candidate A in the seat is not a world you want < 1301943198 376599 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: er, that isn't stochastic voting, just so you know < 1301943212 872591 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: see the link < 1301943213 110228 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait a second. Don't you vote for a party over there? < 1301943216 300773 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you vote for individuals? < 1301943223 109518 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Sweden we vote for a party, and then state the preference of a candidate in that party < 1301943230 718952 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you vote for an individual who's part of a party < 1301943231 488534 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: no, mmp is stupid < 1301943234 848113 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is for local seats < 1301943237 345640 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: and while arrow's theorem doesn't apply due to nondeterminism, it doesn't actually get around it < 1301943238 137452 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :which seems to make a lot more sense, than voting for a given person < 1301943249 8087 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :voting for a person is perfectly logical, it's not electing a president or anything < 1301943251 576974 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's picking who will represent you < 1301943253 559989 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :r area < 1301943257 703679 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: i did < 1301943263 80248 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: what is the relevance < 1301943279 438037 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: since the algorithm effectively works by picking a dictator at random < 1301943288 317173 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I know. I just wanted to point out an interesting type of Real Life voting system < 1301943294 470173 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: ???? no it doesn't < 1301943299 114558 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yes it does < 1301943301 23572 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not random < 1301943302 348406 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable PRIVMSG #esoteric :relevance = talking about voting + voting system < 1301943302 655326 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's weighted < 1301943307 237534 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: current UK voting system: everyone lives in a constituency; you vote for one person who represents the constituency; whoever gets the most votes in a constituency is elected to government < 1301943311 494144 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're using the unweighted sense of "random" to make it sound bad < 1301943311 658720 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: based on vote proportions < 1301943313 139379 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're using the unweighted sense of "random" to make it sound bad < 1301943321 274878 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : Vorpal: you vote for an individual who's part of a party <-- no. We vote for a party. The party has made an ordered list of candidates in the given voting area. You can check one to alter your preference from the top one to that one. Enough checks on a candidate can re-arrange the order of the list. < 1301943332 355564 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :parties don't exist in theory at all, but in practice, each major party suggests someone in each constituency who's more or less forced to toe the party line < 1301943335 45569 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. picking someone at random and going with their preference < 1301943337 56497 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: no, WE vote for that < 1301943341 303331 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you as in you-in-our-scheme < 1301943342 555489 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although occasionally you get "rebellions" where they disobey the party line anyway < 1301943345 761517 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, not at all like the Swedish one then < 1301943350 252702 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: indeed < 1301943352 798040 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: again, using the different sense of random to make it sound bad < 1301943381 466352 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: now, you can weight the selection process by, say, square root of votes received < 1301943391 334426 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :quoting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Sweden#Voting: "Unlike in many countries where voters chose from a list of candidates or parties, each party in Sweden has separate ballot papers." (and then read on) < 1301943399 624356 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523: since the algorithm effectively works by picking a dictator at random < 1301943403 930363 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :all this does is make it sound like the system is < 1301943405 845697 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :>>> import random < 1301943410 139789 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :>>> random.choice(list_of_candidates) < 1301943412 857383 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait < 1301943415 323092 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :>>> DICTATOR = random.choice(list_of_candidates) < 1301943435 518790 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :both "dictator" and "at random" give the sentence way more emotional content than it should have and makes it read completely wrongly < 1301943438 717244 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, this no-to-AV site contradicts itself < 1301943448 693255 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The candidates chosen from each party are determined by two factors: the candidate's ranking by their party and the number of preference votes from the voters. Though the parties still entirely control the names on their own party lists, the system gives the voters a degree of power in choosing candidates from the list." < 1301943450 496355 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1301943453 212794 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :you got it wrong < 1301943455 477482 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I should start a yes-to-stochastic site, just to make everyone vote for AV < 1301943459 405755 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :>>> DICTATOR = random.choice(list_of_voters) < 1301943466 931296 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you mean this is the system you aim for? < 1301943467 596286 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :>>> WINNER = DICTATOR.choice < 1301943468 687934 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :good < 1301943473 464891 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: that's not true at all < 1301943480 499960 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: what < 1301943481 642597 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: ? < 1301943488 331077 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: in the simplest stochastic system, it is < 1301943493 390535 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :as I said, you can ery it more < 1301943494 522800 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : Vorpal: no, WE vote for that <-- what? < 1301943497 238770 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: that's not a stochastic system _anyone_ is proposing < 1301943502 400011 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :HERE'S MY VOTING SYSTEMS GUYS HURP DURP < 1301943506 892189 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :>>> WINNER = CANDIDATES[0] < 1301943512 532244 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :THIS IS IDENTICAL TO FIRST-PAST-THE-POST AND ALSO ALL SYSTEMS < 1301943514 207504 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU CAN VERY IT MORE < 1301943517 483346 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT IT'S STILL THE SAME SYSTEM!!!!! < 1301943520 44570 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ALL VOTING SYSTEMS ARE UNFAIR < 1301943528 638326 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: you ^ < 1301943532 991110 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*VARY < 1301943555 945595 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: in any case, the system /does/ violate a fundamental tenet of democracy that I feel should be maintained < 1301943580 459765 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :namely, that a sufficiently large majority should get to choose < 1301943607 284914 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most voting systems violate that in practice < 1301943613 731922 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: that's incredibly vague < 1301943625 756739 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it doesn't violate that tenet at all < 1301943631 539210 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: what YOU'RE arguing for is literal direct democracy < 1301943641 114207 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :because, if you have representatives, they could vote for something the large majority doesn't want! < 1301943646 327239 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :VIOLATES A FUNDAMENTAL TENET OF DEMOCRACY < 1301943654 786961 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: and one which is fundamentally impossible to have along with the other "democratic" principles (see arrows theorem which has been mentioned before) < 1301943656 649158 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you're proposing completely pure direct democracy... < 1301943660 307375 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhh, have fun, I won't be joining you < 1301943660 847716 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, this yes-to-AV site suggests that AV eliminates tactical voting < 1301943675 632168 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which it doesn't, although it makes it both risky and confusing, which means it'll likely drop in practice to a level low enough to not be significant < 1301943705 853560 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ability to successfully vote tactically in practice is very reduced and requires some serious mathematics and accurate opinion polls to work out < 1301943741 945501 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means that only geeks will vote tactically and thus control the system! < 1301943744 898765 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :YESSSSSSSSSSSSSS < 1301943753 364546 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ++ < 1301943753 757987 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.32 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1301943759 508815 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather coppro ++ < 1301943769 280146 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: indeed; the correct way to vote tactically under AV is to vote for a party with more extreme views than the party you think is most likely to win but don't want to win first, keeping your other preferences in order, with small probability < 1301943780 351043 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I just prefer a dictatorship with myself at the helm < 1301943780 570832 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I wouldn't want to take that risk < 1301943788 553055 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the situations in which it comes up are kind-of rare < 1301943793 787423 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-p < 1301943802 263300 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :dictatorship sounds like too much work < 1301943802 921794 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: yes, I'm familiar with Arrow's theorem, however, there are voting systems that can maintain a majority criterion provided, of course, that you drop the independence of irrelevant alternatives < 1301943809 120004 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd just have people use a mind reading device on me < 1301943815 984841 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and implement whatever i think is good < 1301943822 740856 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :independence of irrelevant alternatives is pretty useful < 1301943840 358107 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, which of the criteria does AV fail? it meets IIA, doesn't it? < 1301943848 741436 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but impossible in any deterministic voting system < 1301943852 233543 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable, a direct democracy would surely work? < 1301943853 74138 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Wikipedia probably has the answers :-P < 1301943859 192029 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, it doesn't meet IIA < 1301943859 569360 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: indeed, but I'm being lazy < 1301943862 891252 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :in practice, no sane voting system does < 1301943863 781234 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Uhhhhhhh, define work < 1301943869 31936 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Direct democracy so does not work in practice < 1301943869 891908 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :because violating the other two are worse < 1301943879 683743 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Direct democracy gives you a country with no taxes and infinite public services :P < 1301943890 90686 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: oh right, because an irrelevant alternative could get more first-place votes than the party that eventually wins, and yet more or less no support elsewhere? < 1301943893 242272 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, no < 1301943897 270815 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott: indeed, but I'm being lazy < 1301943899 719175 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :by trying to think it out yourself? < 1301943912 297393 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, because it can split the vote for the eventual best party in half, causing it to lose in the first round < 1301943918 49655 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.32 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301943926 306320 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, a direct democracy would be fun < 1301943930 135578 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: hey, thinking's easier than using the Internet < 1301943934 138893 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :time consuming however < 1301943937 428522 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you end up with rational ignorance and tyranny of the majority (ok - not a necc. a mathematical argument - but an important one to) < 1301943943 324100 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote elliott: hey, thinking's easier than using the Internet < 1301943947 98560 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :350) elliott: hey, thinking's easier than using the Internet < 1301943949 959802 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: A fun BAD IDEA. < 1301943964 908269 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable, you mean like in Switzerland and the Minaret ban? < 1301943982 553950 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, exactly < 1301943984 313069 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Switzerland isn't totally direct-democracy. < 1301944002 39344 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I only read about that in passing - but yeah < 1301944045 461409 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the alternatives to failing IIA are failing the unanimity criterion or a dictator < 1301944126 113331 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aren't there four criteria, any one of which can be broken? < 1301944130 698225 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, the other one's always producing a result < 1301944163 879570 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Condorcet fails that one, and meets the other three < 1301944169 617365 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION waits. < 1301944174 656710 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a really interesting combo < 1301944178 915258 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrrm < 1301944180 916012 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: ToM is roughly: "when the controlling members of a voting system vote against the non-controlling members in a way which affords no positive to either side" some would extend that to "in a way which affords to positive to the non-controlling side" < 1301944181 604040 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially as it often does produce a result < 1301944183 98797 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable, you risk that with too anyway. Weather-wane politics to keep the power. < 1301944183 264394 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Less likely yes but still a risk < 1301944183 264581 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rational Ignorance is: "I don't care about this issue either way - so I won't vote" and thus leads to a minority controlling < 1301944187 837934 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1301944195 919919 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: imagine a law giving $100 to every person in new york and taking that from idaho's budget. all the people outside of those two states would not vote (they are rationally ignorant) and NY would win with a bad law (taking money from other people without reason) because of a minority of a total voters) < 1301944204 554397 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm, I bet there are voting systems like "Condorcet, and if it doesn't work, tweak and repeat" < 1301944220 416009 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are quite a few condorcet-and-tiebreak systems < 1301944221 199376 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable, right < 1301944222 392401 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the tweaking part being the thing that breaks a different criterion, obviously < 1301944228 316963 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1301944233 260113 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like ranked pairs < 1301944241 504548 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tweak-and-repeat's an interesting way to do things, though < 1301944262 741381 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : Switzerland isn't totally direct-democracy. <-- indeed. But in this specific case, that was the aspect that mattered. < 1301944275 451921 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: some ideas I have seen are basically threshold + rotate: everyone votes one person from a pool of nominies. If they get at least X% of the vote they get to be in charge for L amount of time after which the next one takes over < 1301944284 286176 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable PRIVMSG #esoteric :once they all rotate - new elections < 1301944285 465929 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Condorcet, and if it produces no result, remove the least popular candidate, and reassign all votes for that candidate to the candidate just above it in poopularity (where popularity is measured by the sum of 1/ranking over all votes for them, or something), then repeat < 1301944310 998788 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Condorcet takes rankings as an input < 1301944318 723092 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh, and this does mean that if you vote (3, X) and (4, Y) and Y gets knocked off, then you'll vote (3, X) and (4, X) which is impossible normally < 1301944319 4050 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :gregor! < 1301944319 884559 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes it does < 1301944321 947319 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I accounted for that < 1301944335 610711 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that system i just invented probably already exists, anyway :) < 1301944336 713777 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it only compares pairwise < 1301944343 440431 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: wrong < 1301944358 203779 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: create a mapping of candidate->popularity, where popularity = sum1/ranking for all votes for candidate < 1301944363 92877 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable PRIVMSG #esoteric : gregor! ??????? < 1301944364 223899 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :where ranking is the ranking the candidate was at < 1301944383 439383 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: pick the candidate with the least popularity; change all votes for (ranking,candidate) into (ranking,candidate2), where candidate2 is the second-least candidate by popularity < 1301944384 192910 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :then repeat < 1301944392 292407 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, the way Condorcet works is for any two candidates, a > b if more people put a above b than put b above a, now tsort the results and see who ends up first < 1301944393 299313 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : gregor! ??????? < 1301944400 551020 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't produce a result because sometimes you have cycles < 1301944401 895663 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia, variable, Vorpal: ??? < 1301944402 314320 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: that is how i go about getting people's attention < 1301944406 641999 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: note: if you have (3,X) and (4,Y) and Y gets knocked off and X is candidate2, this turns into (3,X) and (4,X), but that's okay < 1301944409 531215 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: i sent you pm. < 1301944410 150989 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I have no clue < 1301944412 92387 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: AND? < 1301944412 258797 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so how do you define "least popularity"? < 1301944415 289151 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I TOLD YOU < 1301944417 360042 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: typically prefixed with a "ping" on IRC :-\ < 1301944418 203614 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you use the ranking pairs directly < 1301944420 280882 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :not condorcet's output < 1301944423 710561 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ah, OK < 1301944427 937721 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that probably does have a name < 1301944442 22731 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: maybe that is a freenode tradition, but i shun and eschew tradition < 1301944470 672433 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes; possibly it doesn't make the decision to turn (3,worst-candidate-but-one) and (4,worst-candidate) into (3,worst-candidate-but-one) and (3,worst-candidate-but-one) < 1301944475 704280 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: (I imagine it might just drop the latter vote) < 1301944575 67834 :tswettbot!~tswettbot@148.61.234.96 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301944584 912246 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1301944590 566787 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswettbot: oh dear < 1301944612 128359 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, I think I know what's going on. I'm telling it to connect, but the object holding the connection is instantly garbage collected, since I'm not doing anything with it. < 1301944612 831551 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: aargh, one day I'm going to kill G. for introducing "moron in a hurry" < 1301944618 706465 :pumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh shit, it's a tswettbot < 1301944621 324799 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: what language? < 1301944623 312449 :pumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION runs < 1301944625 533244 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Smalltalk. < 1301944637 649912 :pumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh shit, is it going to talk to us about the weather then? < 1301944638 610062 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: are you using the destructor to close the connection or something? < 1301944644 62199 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so, that's probably a bad idea :) < 1301944651 103116 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I think smalltalks are mark-and-sweep usually, not refcounted < 1301944656 646461 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I very much doubt it's freed instantly < 1301944660 310321 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, rather, they're anything but refcounting < 1301944669 417881 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301944674 605801 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not telling it to close the connection at all. < 1301944695 578599 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is source available? or is it written in the sort of Smalltalk where source doesn't really exist, only objects? < 1301944699 503151 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :All I know is that if I don't do something with the object, tswettbot doesn't show up here. < 1301944712 709950 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I could "file out" the package, which might produce readable source code. < 1301944771 230766 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: You could have just asked "Is it written in GNU Smalltalk?" < 1301944780 532391 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, Smalltalk projects are usually shared with Monticello, the language-aware VCS. < 1301944791 862813 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Squeak, at least, and IIRC it runs on the popular commercial systems too. < 1301944812 364281 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, Smalltalk's GUI and expressions you evaluate manually apparently do not use separate threads automatically. So, since this expression will continue evaluating until tswettbot disconnects, I don't get to use the GUI for a while. :P < 1301944815 601393 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I think I went to some effort to make sure that in Feather, source really did always exist < 1301944836 84011 :tswettbot!~tswettbot@148.61.234.96 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1301944838 628306 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswettbot should be out of here in just a mom--yep. < 1301945060 58169 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The file-out was successful, but I have no idea where the file is. :P < 1301945064 767920 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :out < 1301945112 17147 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here it is. It's inside the application package. < 1301945132 579222 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :THIS IS WHAT YOU GET FOR USING OS X < 1301945136 329800 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or RISC OS I guess < 1301945138 911729 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or ROX < 1301945150 550581 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alas, this file is CR-delimited. < 1301945293 101570 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :CR-delimited? < 1301945322 716149 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It uses CR to denote a line break. < 1301945327 458960 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are no LFs anywhere. < 1301945338 841008 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that like comma-separated, with LF between lines and CR between fields? < 1301945348 803615 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would by the way be a nice file format < 1301945365 120405 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett, classic mac os? < 1301945367 216716 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't using tabs between fields make more sense? < 1301945376 803283 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for bonus points, EBCDIC has LF, CR, /and/ NL < 1301945380 216781 :cheater99!~cheater@85.181.136.245 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1301945388 114175 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought OS X didn't use CR any more < 1301945389 393920 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can never spell EBCDIC < 1301945390 668503 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's always < 1301945391 859955 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ebidibic < 1301945394 667308 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ebidbidbdicbd < 1301945396 124111 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, do you know the original reason both LF and CR were created? < 1301945396 311985 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :beidbeidbebibeic < 1301945398 896783 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ebdiebdciebdeibcidebciebdiebcidbeicbiecicd < 1301945405 68816 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :beiber < 1301945408 344912 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what did NL do? < 1301945412 507853 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: newline, of course < 1301945419 663822 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, same! < 1301945422 298031 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: that's certainly not what I'm *using*. I guess this Smalltalk format just happens to use CR for lines. < 1301945429 366162 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well duh < 1301945431 44702 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but how was it used < 1301945433 452727 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the BCD stands for binary-coded-decimal, it's easier to spell if you know that < 1301945436 453698 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I don't know < 1301945439 763271 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If OS X still used just CR for line breaks, nothing would work. :) < 1301945440 13354 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, as compared to how CR and LF were used < 1301945440 650197 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1301945472 805312 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you implying OS X works, tswett? < 1301945482 524045 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: no, I'm implying that *some* of it works. < 1301945489 987968 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm well that might be true, mathematically < 1301945493 287241 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :depending on the definition of works < 1301945512 717190 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example, I can use the TextEdit application to create a plain text file, open up the Terminal application, cat the file (if I can find it), and boom, it's the file I entered into TextEdit. < 1301945550 461966 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: doesn't textedit use rtf even if you just type plain text, by default < 1301945551 5898 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :;D < 1301945575 777438 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup. < 1301945586 366378 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1301945597 699625 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's the file you entered into TextEdit, i.e. literally the file < 1301945601 657840 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :just not the text you entered into TextEdit :-D < 1301945612 500353 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i don't think the terminal distinguishes \n from \r\n < 1301945620 305883 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it probably decodes any utf-8 sequences < 1301945621 794006 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, okay, I have to use some menu options to make that work. :P < 1301945622 765474 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's not even the same file! < 1301945633 441872 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: that doesn't work if you don't have a mouse!!! < 1301945639 210305 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's what the file-out of my Smalltalk looks like: http://pastebin.com/yi34NaBs < 1301945648 237302 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I don't have a mouse. It works just fine. < 1301945669 457624 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: a pointing device, then < 1301945672 525160 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can almost read that file-out. < 1301945685 24554 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear, wiktionary has lojban < 1301945692 60377 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's delimited by exclamation marks, apparently. < 1301945706 590356 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's mostly readable, but I have no idea what "]style[(45)f1!" means. < 1301945709 984572 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently zbasu was formed by finding out what the word is in a bunch of other languages, then taking letters at random < 1301945725 691737 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: "TannerSwett" -- your smalltalk name is meant to be your initials, IIRC < 1301945737 610453 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : nextPutAll: 'USER ', nick, ' * * :', nick; crlf; < 1301945737 774446 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :second parameter is mode, not * < 1301945738 900966 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :try 8 < 1301945755 747598 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :also classify your methods >:() < 1301945757 140212 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*>:) < 1301945757 305254 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, they weren't taken at random. They used a very sophisticated and specialized PRNG. < 1301945778 321173 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: also also, you probably don't want an accessor for the stream < 1301945780 233522 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least not a /setter/ < 1301945792 981629 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought the second and third parameters were the hostname and server. < 1301945800 494952 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, that's in the old RFC < 1301945816 676525 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. So you're saying the second parameter should be the number 8? < 1301945828 32163 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or any other mode bitmask (there are only two bits you can set that are RFC-defined) < 1301945830 333390 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yeah, I'll classify my methods once I figure out what classification they should go in. :P < 1301945836 640600 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC that sets invisible and disables wallops < 1301945841 246867 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :invisible is forced on freenode anyway < 1301945841 797415 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods. < 1301945844 949909 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a bot can't do anything useful with wallops < 1301945858 365525 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yeah, I don't want a setter on stream. < 1301945866 881923 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Or arguably an accessor. < 1301945873 692097 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The getter should probably go, too, eventually. < 1301945875 277526 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless there's a reason for arbitrary other classes to be writing to the socket. < 1301945881 770277 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could just have a writeIRCLine: method or something. < 1301945899 842848 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should be using instVarAt: when I really need to access it manually for some strange reason. < 1301945907 613868 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So yeah. < 1301945910 69736 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ouch. < 1301945926 209594 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or the object browser. :P < 1301945935 873906 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: You should write a working SmallNomic to motivate me to go back to mine :-D < 1301945944 799610 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what I'm working on. < 1301945954 658267 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Step one is obviously to write an IRC bot. < 1301945964 629392 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Damn. Then stop so I don't feel pressure when writing mine. < 1301945991 690709 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: I would totally tell you the one thing something can't be called a Smalltalk nomic without, but you'd just STEAL IT if you haven't already and I CANNOT ABIDE BY THAT. < 1301946024 149113 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1301946040 25210 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I already have a bunch of ideas. Like, make the nomic scriptable with Lua. < 1301946051 563649 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Was... Smalltalk not good enough? < 1301946063 404 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO LANGUAGE IS GOOD ENOUGH! < 1301946064 812527 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I MUST HAVE TWO! < 1301946081 940224 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: The Thing It Must Have is the ability to modify any core class, not just "Nomic-owned" ones, so that the nomic can even modify the programming language it's written in. < 1301946084 269323 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seriously, I've never found a programming language with both persistence and sandboxing. So I'm using Smalltalk for persistence and Lua for sandboxing. < 1301946088 804162 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ostensibly this would produce the GREATEST < 1301946089 796598 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :PROGRAMMING < 1301946090 460028 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :LANGUAGE < 1301946091 140916 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :EVER. < 1301946093 954111 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: You don't NEED sandboxing... < 1301946102 306338 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apart from, like, running it in a chroot. < 1301946104 321621 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but it makes things much nicer, doesn't it? < 1301946107 603405 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1301946110 132690 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Imagine a MOO that doesn't have sandboxing. < 1301946111 896536 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It restricts what the nomic can do. < 1301946121 327189 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Is it meant to be a nomic or a MOO? < 1301946125 875967 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, not that kind of sandboxing. Allow the nomic to sandbox the code that users put into it. < 1301946133 104222 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It can't be both; it can only be a nomic with a MOO subgame.) < 1301946133 433544 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A moomic. < 1301946139 689026 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, a nomic with a MOO subgame. < 1301946139 892906 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : No, not that kind of sandboxing. Allow the nomic to sandbox the code that users put into it. < 1301946142 740300 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the kind of sandboxing I meant. < 1301946160 806694 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's so well-integrated that it becomes a moomic. < 1301946162 307702 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: The MOO should obviously be in Smalltalk :) < 1301946168 133379 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mostly because Smalltalk is pretty well suited to writing nomics. < 1301946174 105801 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is, yes. < 1301946178 85754 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm. < 1301946179 961560 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mostly because Smalltalk is pretty well suited to writing MOOs. < 1301946184 344105 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is, yes. < 1301946185 695662 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Because of the message-passing paradigm.) < 1301946201 923525 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So how does the sandboxing I mentioned restrict what the nomic can do? < 1301946211 700027 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you meant sandboxing proposals themselves and the like. < 1301946215 66082 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is Satanic. < 1301946220 440583 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. Nope. < 1301946238 303186 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let people upload code and run it without asking anyone for permission. Naturally, that requires sandboxing. < 1301946241 410269 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Also also, you may not have a JS-based class browser proposal creation interface, because that's SmallNomic patented :P < 1301946266 130347 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION writes the most ingenious code ever: [(Delay forSeconds: 5) wait] fork < 1301946276 757271 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow! It does nothing, in the background! < 1301946280 348797 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like "sleep 5 &"! < 1301946284 710380 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Precisely. < 1301946292 377715 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Anyway if you were a REAL programmer you'd do it in Self. < 1301946336 690468 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how forkAndWait could possibly be useful. It provides threading, but only allows one thread to run at once. < 1301946350 136362 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it exist? < 1301946360 230145 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. You can [(Delay forSeconds: 5) wait] forkAndWait. < 1301946360 394120 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, it'll only wait on it in the current thread. < 1301946367 533509 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you could also just call the block. < 1301946369 495810 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think. < 1301946377 95379 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Why not check out its code/comments? < 1301946401 362264 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did. It says, "Suspend current process and execute self in new process, when it completes resume current process". < 1301946421 187075 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. < 1301946525 553147 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh, there are these things called ProcessSpecificVariables. < 1301946536 514326 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Ew. < 1301946538 602573 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess which process you're in sometimes matters. < 1301946540 80472 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, ew. < 1301946541 15448 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just put it in an object :P < 1301946553 652765 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett, to protect some sort of thread state perhaps? If smalltalk has anything such < 1301946553 818088 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :like thread local variables or whatever. < 1301946559 355991 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Again, ew. < 1301946562 400034 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's wrong with using an object < 1301946567 629035 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Foo new doThings] fork < 1301946598 227431 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, Nothing I assume. I was just trying to give a suggestion for what might be the reason behind it < 1301946607 409390 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, ew. < 1301946625 547508 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know smalltalk :P < 1301946631 349605 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I know a few basic things < 1301946633 948763 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that is all < 1301946652 237111 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :grr, the worst thing with the < 1301946653 298146 :Mannerisky!~mannerisk@71-38-40-244.frgo.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1301946657 323011 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo stack[constant]; < 1301946659 872609 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :int stack_ptr = -1; < 1301946665 5853 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :thing is that you can't have functions that operate on the stack < 1301946672 368463 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :without passing two params) < 1301946679 231193 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : int stack_ptr = -1; <-- aieee! < 1301946679 394961 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now to ponder how things are going to send and receive IRC messages. < 1301946682 990726 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, needs to be long < 1301946683 672691 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: what? < 1301946685 820784 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: ... < 1301946687 583568 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even better unsigned long < 1301946698 153774 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably ssize_t < 1301946700 668177 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: surely the bot should do that itself < 1301946707 848845 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or size_t < 1301946718 80488 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: why, it's size-limited < 1301946730 593358 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, by how much? < 1301946732 701877 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :100k < 1301946739 411617 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, they why not a short? < 1301946739 665859 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which i believe always fits in an int. < 1301946749 468391 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: oh eff off... and a signed short can't store that < 1301946757 1933 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, unsigned one < 1301946767 556432 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: 100k > 65536 < 1301946772 236584 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hm < 1301946775 565061 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and -1 is to denote "empty stack" < 1301946784 179675 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, use int_least32_t or whatever the type is < 1301946785 38344 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :even with 0 = no stack < 1301946786 182160 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't do < 1301946794 597143 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if (--n >= 0) ... < 1301946799 919468 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: aka int < 1301946805 811951 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, anyway I have worked on system where int was 16-bit < 1301946808 793869 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, so no < 1301946813 737731 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :not C90 < 1301946813 930841 :pumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1301946858 27502 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, yes it is. It was freestanding however. < 1301946868 10919 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, but please point me to the paragraph that says int must be at least 32 bits < 1301946904 450089 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, seems int has to store at least +-32767 < 1301946910 956088 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :in C89 draft < 1301946916 587972 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me check c99 < 1301946931 589026 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :— maximum value for an object of type int < 1301946931 753842 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :INT_MAX < 1301946931 754021 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :+32767 // 215 − 1 < 1301946931 754142 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, this is from C99 < 1301946935 14749 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I doubt it would change it radically from C90 < 1301946941 475939 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :very well then < 1301946945 346877 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :215 - 1? what?) < 1301947017 140272 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, long must be at least 32 bits < 1301947017 305811 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, int must not < 1301947017 470477 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, this is in 5.2.4.2.1 §1 < 1301947024 93737 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: i'm not talking to you until you stop lagging < 1301947029 195341 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, that was 2^15 < 1301947029 447325 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway there is only one solution < 1301947031 779910 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :but copy paste < 1301947036 450846 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :char ptr[sizeof(STACK_SIZE)]; < 1301947044 936947 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, and it is you who is lagging from my POV < 1301947050 499327 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I think freenode is under attack < 1301947053 457417 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually i dunno if sizeof(234234) works < 1301947055 603839 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess it does < 1301947057 976667 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it can take a value < 1301947060 499048 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, because I have <0.1s lag to server < 1301947060 662698 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but without an L suffix < 1301947063 958504 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might sizeof the overflowed int < 1301947070 769851 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: under attack AND YET < 1301947073 276952 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody but you is having troubles! < 1301947074 895605 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :how strange! < 1301947087 390568 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I have no problems on other irc networks < 1301947098 115038 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. clearly freenode's problem just for you. < 1301947101 727036 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're so kind < 1301947105 400851 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could try reconnecting to another server except it would be a PITA < 1301947112 839320 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it would take whole keystrokes < 1301947117 773781 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, have you looked in larger channels < 1301947125 34996 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, no it would take minutes to rejoin channels :P < 1301947133 73151 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :#ubuntu looks perfectly fine to me < 1301947138 190881 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, atm yes < 1301947141 763988 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, there are lag spikes < 1301947152 413448 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also, nobody else in here is whining but that's likely more a result of you being whiny than everyone else not having problems < 1301947160 202254 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@17.101.89.204 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301947163 8402 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :now if you'll excuse me, I'll go back to whining about C < 1301947166 761230 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@17.101.89.204 QUIT :Changing host < 1301947166 924450 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1301947167 363928 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I'm not whining. You are. < 1301947179 65556 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :freenode fail, i think freenode is under attack < 1301947182 840252 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i have no problems with other servers < 1301947184 85573 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yadda yadda < 1301947186 956975 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: stop whining about who's whining < 1301947193 212213 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, hah < 1301947202 810569 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, no. Because I saw that mentioned in another channel < 1301947207 841239 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :by a former staff. < 1301947214 24465 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :FORMER staff! golly gosh! < 1301947218 938212 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so authoritative < 1301947225 337158 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, yep. I trust that guy more than current staff. < 1301947227 138125 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1301947228 626890 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway since freenode are incompetent i don't see why they'd get the facts right < 1301947233 874766 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably his sources are inside freenode < 1301947248 858460 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, yes quite. < 1301947260 904430 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's strange, you'd expect competence to go UP after lilo [REST OF SENTENCE REDACTED DUE TO EXTREME BAD TASTE] < 1301947284 321796 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1301947285 931525 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lilo the bootloader? < 1301947287 98340 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, netclock looks like fun < 1301947291 444386 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ... < 1301947300 934393 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes. definitely. < 1301947303 178 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, lilo the founder of freenode < 1301947306 190908 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: ah < 1301947336 868578 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the biggest channel i've ever seen was the "say the same RIP that everyone else has already said five times about lilo" channel < 1301947351 605245 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :they turned on +m every now and then and when it came off about 100 messages a second came in < 1301947354 472373 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :not even exaggerating < 1301947370 266139 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, died in a car accident. The driver did a runaway or whatever the English word is. < 1301947386 460583 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically a car/bicycle accident < 1301947392 816034 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :a car accident to me implies he was in a car < 1301947400 894936 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and doesn't actually implicate another car at all necessarily < 1301947401 60944 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: hit-and-run? < 1301947436 798902 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ah yes that's it < 1301947458 249477 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, he was a pedestrian. < 1301947462 522940 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: um no < 1301947464 213294 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :he was on a bicycle. < 1301947466 945337 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1301947470 414812 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :was it bicycle? < 1301947472 815388 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1301947473 663698 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :On September 12, 2006, he was struck by a car while riding a bicycle at night in Houston, Texas in a hit-and-run collision. After the collision, it was reported that he was hospitalized for several days. He died on September 16. < 1301947482 581416 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :went into a coma, I believe < 1301947500 789874 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → < 1301947562 871556 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I wonder if anyone's just used C with Templates < 1301947563 860537 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from CUDA < 1301947564 633491 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1301947619 502536 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if for each C++ feature, there was a C-like language which was identical for C except with that feature < 1301947629 36850 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how many of the resulting languages would be used? < 1301947631 193376 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably most of them < 1301947689 75175 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1301947693 138734 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :C with Lambdas < 1301947695 297025 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :C with Auto < 1301947699 848772 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the different auto) < 1301947703 759699 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :C with Different Casting Rules < 1301947709 689001 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :C with Protected < 1301947717 407618 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C with More Specific Casts? < 1301947720 863938 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes! < 1301947721 697577 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is what you mean? < 1301947724 240256 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1301947732 56833 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :f(x); /* x won't be casted to (void *) in C++ */ < 1301947734 545284 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to do it explicitly < 1301947742 164630 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :C with Templates sounds pretty neat < 1301947743 279182 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(no matter what the signature of f or x is) < 1301947751 520808 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :C with Long Compilation Times < 1301947781 322267 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :X-D < 1301947787 405465 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C with Hindley-Milner type inference and implicit closures. < 1301947792 825029 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :QCC: Now with LCT! < 1301947805 594012 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: C++ has that? < 1301947813 889828 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ...really? < 1301947818 273667 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Thus "?" < 1301947827 166774 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has type inference, not H-M though :) < 1301947829 200507 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well afaik < 1301947833 165578 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods. < 1301947833 746954 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe the lambdas end up mandating it :-D < 1301947845 72512 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :although you can't declare a function with auto params < 1301947845 750160 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah < 1301947854 905216 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, why isn't there a type that can hold any other type in C :-D < 1301947858 770394 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly it should be void < 1301947865 135215 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :because (void *) can point to anything < 1301947893 876398 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because nobody would know how big it is. < 1301947906 53720 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure you would, there's a limit because C implementations can't be TC by the standard < 1301947909 278951 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1301947913 754597 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :they can't be TC in the sense that objects can be infinite < 1301947919 248091 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or arbitrarily-sized < 1301947930 878073 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many senses of TC are there? < 1301947946 940474 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean that hosted C89 is probably TC < 1301947951 312791 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it still can't have arbitrarily-sized objects < 1301947969 115995 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is probably TC with file IO, etc. < 1301947983 749993 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just use a recursive struct. That will obviously solve the problem. < 1301947996 139668 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be awesome if you could do it :D < 1301948002 304120 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :struct infinite_array { < 1301948004 420374 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : bit value; < 1301948007 471971 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : struct infinite_array rest; < 1301948008 713117 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :}; < 1301948015 967129 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :can only be fully addressed in unary < 1301948024 185403 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. There are no problems with that. < 1301948034 978657 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(array N ->value) accesses the Nth value < 1301948037 106284 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh, just use pointer arithmetic. < 1301948038 307314 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1301948039 8507 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*.value < 1301948048 44198 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :where zero is the null string, and SN is .valueN < 1301948056 108911 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: pointers can only be of finite size < 1301948060 7809 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that can't address the thing fully < 1301948069 413645 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, you can't even do &infarray < 1301948073 689457 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :because pigeonhole principle < 1301948086 138581 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If infinite_array is viable, so are arbitrarily large pointers. :P < 1301948093 695064 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :nuh uh < 1301948097 507894 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :sizeof(ptr) has to be finite < 1301948114 210255 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but so does sizeof(infinite_array), no? < 1301948115 227065 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :because char has to be finitely-sized in hosted implementations because of CHAR_BIT < 1301948119 493587 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: ...true < 1301948122 903444 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :DRAT < 1301948127 485044 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :sizeof should return a float < 1301948128 312226 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hence. < 1301948130 780490 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can just return +inf < 1301948138 978076 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sizeof should return a cardinal number, so you can just return aleph_0. < 1301948144 404597 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO < 1301948144 842897 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :FLOAT < 1301948149 560104 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you could implement turkey bomb too < 1301948183 95956 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, suppose you have a type like this: struct infinite_tree { bit value; struct infinite_tree left; struct infinite_array right; }; < 1301948196 344144 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just returns +inf * 2! < 1301948211 97204 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The pointers required to address all of those things will have the order type x where x = 1 + x + x. < 1301948232 339412 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rational numbers work perfectly well for that. < 1301948263 274429 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1301948271 534289 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tree is at position 1. tree.left and tree.right are at positions 2 and 3. tree.left.left and tree.left.right are at positions 2 1/2 and 2 2/3. < 1301948273 472837 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, sizeof is in char < 1301948276 640899 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you should have char value; < 1301948290 301231 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just copying you. You copycat. < 1301948302 550207 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ur mom < 1301948311 536523 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey maybe i should write an irc bot in idst < 1301948345 942744 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I think we have the potential to develop a great synergy. We can really leverage this. < 1301948361 989850 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: What, your mom? < 1301948368 927396 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, she can really be leveraged hur hur < 1301948404 883478 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, the synergy. We can leverage the synergy to develop solutions. < 1301948457 774247 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: But can we do the needful? < 1301948486 157264 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: think outside the box. Push the envelope. < 1301948509 184633 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Go further. < 1301948511 751438 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reach out to humans. < 1301948514 272875 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Be humanistically synergised. < 1301948517 309238 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Precisely, yes. < 1301948526 778954 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(What is even the going on.) < 1301948561 619046 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay, cola has been modified recently < 1301948564 143629 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(they added babies) < 1301948583 294581 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :With our humanistically collaborative synergy utilized, we can open new windows to... I have no idea what I'm talking about, so I'll talk about something else. < 1301948594 140371 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I want to do, I guess, is take this stream of characters and turn it into a stream of lines. < 1301948633 111192 :cheater99!~cheater@85.181.136.245 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxidKnDXwd4 < 1301948649 795529 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, nextLine. < 1301948713 477534 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : What I want to do, I guess, is take this stream of characters and turn it into a stream of lines. < 1301948716 379913 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's haskell talk :D < 1301948755 661683 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I want is nextLine. :P < 1301948762 22709 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :/home/elliott/idst/object/st80/_object.st:50: WARNING: redefining _sizeof can break object allocation; check _sizeof carefully in all subtypes < 1301948763 253889 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fancies. < 1301948782 166540 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well that's scary. < 1301948789 863124 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: It's part of the primitive object code :P < 1301948808 612178 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that messages implies that EVERY OBJECT should check _sizeof carefully, though, which is hilarious :P < 1301948825 93584 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: You see, cola is also a better choice for a nomic because you can even edit the structure of a very object from inside! < 1301948831 207655 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOMICS WILL WANT TO DO THAT < 1301948835 394508 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's cola? < 1301948847 630768 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've heard of cola bottle babies, but I don't know that. < 1301948847 793971 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Competition for Plof :P < 1301948848 206428 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://piumarta.com/software/cola/ The successor to Smalltalk :P < 1301948854 717063 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In a very real sense.) < 1301948862 943852 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :In that Alan Kay runs the VPRI, and cola is the VPRI's project. < 1301948868 634365 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Competition to @ too, it just isn't at that stage yet :P < 1301948874 195738 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Basically it: < 1301948879 470612 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: (1) Completely describes itself in itself. < 1301948879 635546 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"cola (aka Idst, Jolt, the SODA languages, &c.) is an ongoing project to create a springboard for investigating new computing paradigms." Drat, I should have used "springboard" and "paradigm" up there. < 1301948883 431942 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: (2) Is completely implemented in itself. < 1301948891 475534 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: (3) Late-binds, and therefore lets you change, EVERYTHING. < 1301948900 324862 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Including how objects look in memory. < 1301948900 527217 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: do you think we can leverage our synergy to create springboards for new solution paradigms? < 1301948904 152838 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1301948917 841774 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Can I pay you to bring back PerlNomic? < 1301948934 872307 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :rm -f CodeGenerator-local.st < 1301948935 213389 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cp -p CodeGenerator-x86_64.st CodeGenerator-local.st < 1301948935 377705 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cp: cannot stat `CodeGenerator-x86_64.st': No such file or directory < 1301948938 272834 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :THIS ARCHITECTURE DOES NOT FEEL SUPPORTED < 1301948945 365856 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: if you pay me rent for an appropriate VPS, perhaps < 1301948953 171256 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :No wait, there's no CodeGenerator anything. < 1301948958 724026 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :C nomic in the form of a self-compiling C compiler: Best idea? < 1301948958 946305 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I already have a VPS X-D < 1301948966 573394 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Either that, or worst idea :P < 1301948975 850055 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Aren't they the same? < 1301948981 419538 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Obviously. < 1301948987 296829 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, there's only ppc and i386 and arm code generators < 1301948990 375159 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION make clean < 1301949000 966724 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dudes, sandboxing is the most important possible codenomic feature. < 1301949012 985259 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: No, it's the most important possible MOO feature :P < 1301949015 265255 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Self-modification is utterly unimportant compared to sandboxing. < 1301949018 682276 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :X-D < 1301949018 938521 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes. < 1301949037 633102 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's turn Agora into a game of Chess. < 1301949047 653780 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This proposal removes proposals." < 1301949051 771470 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Checkmate." "Okay, I... uh..." < 1301949052 550322 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.32 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1301949057 912743 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: BTW, do you know any reason why LXC (lxc.sf.net) plus a non-shitty FUSE unionFS wouldn't be a complete replacement for plash, but more maintainable? < 1301949067 885793 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I call for judgement on the statement 'It is possible to call for judgements.'" "FALSE." "Drat." < 1301949070 275451 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :The observation makes me almost want to write a non-shitty FUSE union FS ... < 1301949070 452453 :augur_!~augur@129.2.129.32 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301949075 626498 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: lxc depends on cgroups, which I don't like. < 1301949079 455924 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I don't think BFS supports. < 1301949086 419042 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, I like the idea of cunionfs. < 1301949100 570527 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So on one hand, I don't want you to switch to that system, but on another, I want cunionfs. < 1301949105 623971 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I cannot possibly advise. < 1301949129 458139 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: would you happen to know if it's possible to take a stream in Smalltalk and split it into two streams, each producing the same data when read? < 1301949138 985835 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Why do you want to do that ... < 1301949149 580975 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Well, the alternative is to carve out the part of plash that depends on glibc and swap it out for a FUSE union FS. < 1301949154 135579 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that if something wants to listen to the stream, you can just hand it a stream. < 1301949158 367558 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe that's not the way to do this. < 1301949167 685923 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: That would work, but also sounds fairly pointless :P < 1301949173 601254 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: But it would give me what I want :P < 1301949184 662684 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I would suggest writing it as an actual kernel module for lower latency though >_> < 1301949231 829894 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cola totally needs to use a build system written in cola. < 1301949243 359926 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, I just got the BEST IDEA. < 1301949255 157249 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: The advantages of FUSE are: 1) The only root part is still just a program to do the chroot/setuid, and 2) I don't have to worry about enforcing permissions other than the ones requested :P < 1301949269 907448 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: What. < 1301949270 540563 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yeah, speed, bleh < 1301949276 974515 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :We should have a bunch of codenomics in Smalltalk. Each codenomic should periodically pick a random class name, and copy that class out from another codenomic to itself. < 1301949282 196527 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Well, Kitten would kinda want to use a cunionfs / :P < 1301949302 159302 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yeah, SPS wanted a cunionfs /usr :P < 1301949317 873105 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, Cola is completely self-describing. Does that mean that from the inside, the system looks as if it's interpreting itself? < 1301949326 687373 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: And FUSE for that sounds ... un-nice. < 1301949328 329194 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Compiling. < 1301949335 22971 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. Whew. < 1301949335 210933 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: And it doesn't just LOOK like it, it IS. < 1301949340 934947 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cola's compiler is written in Cola :P < 1301949344 326960 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also its object model. < 1301949345 348529 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sun Microsystems introduced the first implementation of a stacked, layered file system with copy-on-write, whiteouts (hiding files in lower layers from higher layers), etc. as the Translucent File Service in SunOS 3, circa 1986.[4] < 1301949347 418786 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOD DAMN IT SUN < 1301949359 482963 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe there's still a "runtime" in C, but as described in their paper, < 1301949365 350934 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the runtime doesn't define or control the object model. < 1301949371 215509 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: okay, so... it's a lot like Smalltalk, isn't it. < 1301949371 378888 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://piumarta.com/software/cola/objmodel2.pdf < 1301949382 419926 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: It's like Smalltalk, except not failing at its goals. < 1301949400 680909 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Remember, this project is by Alan Kay's company, and I'm assuming you know who he is :P < 1301949401 348409 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION opens up a typing practice program, and is asked to type "anesthetist house distensions nooned unstated outsets standouts nineteenths . . ." < 1301949414 637449 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Smalltalk defines a rigid in-memory layout to all its objects. < 1301949416 746463 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think this program's estimate of my typing speed is going to be... inaccurate. < 1301949420 471071 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That cannot be changed at all. < 1301949425 99315 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alan Kay. He's that guy who sounds like LNK. < 1301949432 279196 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: He's the guy who invented Smalltalk >_< < 1301949446 656488 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And therefore OOP :P) < 1301949513 218854 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1301949515 349658 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just need x86_32 < 1301949518 166819 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :stupidest named target ever < 1301949526 525324 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, there looks to be 64-bit support too but i guess it sucks < 1301949534 70224 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe the builtin UnionFS is actually sufficient by now ... < 1301949555 992901 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :OHWAITNOBLEH the whole issue is that I need to make sure it has /host user/ permissions, not /guest user/ permissions < 1301949572 145413 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Also "However, I am no big fan of Smalltalk either, even though it compares very favourably with most programming systems today (I don’t like any of them, and I don’t think any of them are suitable for the real programming problems of today, whether for systems or for end-users)." --Alan Kay :P < 1301949583 975589 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cola is basically meant to fix the fact that Smalltalk doesn't late-bind EVERYTHING. < 1301949593 364251 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :By doing so, it ends up being completely self-reflective and self-implemented. < 1301949597 905221 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: wat :P < 1301949630 706723 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I think FreeBSD jails might work for you, btw < 1301949635 292662 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: (prgmr can do BSD :P) < 1301949636 915850 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yes, they would. < 1301949642 115444 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just sayin' < 1301949648 219644 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: prgmr can do NET < 1301949655 63600 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :They might be Freeable but Idonno. < 1301949657 417812 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: It can do anything Xen can. < 1301949671 533158 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: There are sites with loads of howto-do-OS-blah-on-Xen things. < 1301949684 461047 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, what I mean is that there exist instructions on how to install NetBSD within an existing Linux without momentarily breaking out of Xen to start an install :P < 1301949703 435549 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Testates"? What does that word mean? < 1301949705 899046 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: You could use the updated depenguinator :P < 1301949723 604002 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: http://www.daemonology.net/blog/2008-01-29-depenguinator-2.0.html < 1301949731 113046 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it doesn't have Xen-specific things :P < 1301949731 720633 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :SO UPDATED < 1301949753 452088 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: 2008-01, updated enough for me < 1301949759 425230 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Frankly if I switched to FreeBSD, it would be Debian GNU/kFreeBSD. My experience with the FreeBSD userland has been "OH GOD WHY" < 1301949791 201114 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor sees a nasty userland and thinks "hey, GNU would be so much nicer" :-P < 1301949802 304949 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it's more like < 1301949804 930061 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's because it is. < 1301949805 131308 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeBSD is all "OH GOD WHY" < 1301949810 758764 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But with GNU it's all "OH GOD WHY STOP BURNING MY CHILDREN" < 1301949813 793847 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm an extreme masochist. < 1301949821 623421 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No matter what your silly opinion is, GNU currently has the best console tools that exist. < 1301949836 106841 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(My silly opinion :P ) < 1301949836 667245 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Best COMPLETE SET, maybe. < 1301949852 175559 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are plenty of tools better than GNU's, they're just not in convenient packages :P < 1301949866 883348 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, let me make a more concrete statement: < 1301949878 54726 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Every non-GNU program sux" < 1301949879 270501 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nearly every GNU userland tool is better than its FreeBSD equivalent. < 1301949888 895489 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? I can't troll that statement. < 1301949889 613571 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plz fix. < 1301949905 605947 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/bin/ld: skipping incompatible /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.4.5/../../../libreadline.so when searching for -lreadline < 1301949905 769569 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/bin/ld: skipping incompatible /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.4.5/../../../libreadline.a when searching for -lreadline < 1301949912 225963 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ffff < 1301949931 503188 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish distros had competent multiple-architecture support that used qemu. < 1301949943 951396 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then a sane 32-bit environment would just be s/qemu-x86_64/linux32/ < 1301950024 174314 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Done with lesson 2! You typed 100 words in approximately 10 minutes." < 1301950028 690313 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I r typing master. < 1301950034 680809 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow :P < 1301950040 571703 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you really that terrible? < 1301950078 883126 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can mount --bind be -o ro? < 1301950097 201954 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :TIAS? < 1301950121 522226 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: only with Dvorak. < 1301950132 424482 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[~/gregorsucks]% sudo mount --bind -o ro a b 1 < 1301950132 661887 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mount: warning: b seems to be mounted read-write. < 1301950136 444465 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: No. < 1301950140 940342 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm using ten letters of the alphabet to type words that are, on average, ten letters long. Double that to get my actual typing speed with those ten letters. < 1301950148 685651 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[~/gregorsucks]% echo hello >b/b < 1301950148 850340 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[~/gregorsucks]% cat a/b < 1301950148 850497 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1301950150 6836 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Doubly no. < 1301950161 818986 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :My usual plash setup isn't actually unioning anything :P < 1301950162 713143 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assuming that a word is actually five letters long on average and spaces take no time to type. < 1301950171 455698 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hmmms some more. < 1301950184 512846 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: how would you have lots of things listening to one stream? < 1301950191 554304 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Why would you have that? < 1301950202 626192 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would have the bot read each line, then give it to everyone who's said they want to listen to lines. Possibly in threads. < 1301950225 779838 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods. < 1301950273 367712 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Rule of thumb: Objects should be the only point of access to their members'... "features" :P < 1301950286 278858 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :In this case, "getting lines from IRC". < 1301950290 881593 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods. < 1301950292 962971 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the object is the bot connection object. < 1301950314 164880 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I have some ideas for a website but I don't have any skills in the realm of web development. Is there a site I can submit an idea to that will uphold my potential rights and ensure that no one implements my idea without consulting me first?" < 1301950324 628143 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I thought copyright couldn't get any worse. < 1301950334 54616 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yes, the United States Patent and Trademark Office. < 1301950346 595409 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: You can't copyright the idea for something, only an implementation. < 1301950346 903123 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :is elliott trying to say that uncle tswett has accessed his privates? < 1301950350 105580 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :He readily admits he can't implement it. < 1301950352 696752 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Yes. < 1301950363 147520 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: really? Don't software companies patent ideas all the time? < 1301950369 636715 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Or do you mean "you can do it in practice, just you shouldn't be able to" < 1301950371 520004 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :In which case, I agree < 1301950379 93360 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods. < 1301950382 853975 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you were saying that it was a proper avenue to do it :p < 1301950407 101903 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you think of overriding #new so that it throws an error, and using a keyword message to create new objects? < 1301950410 335621 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I meant that it would be quite depressing for someone else to create a website with the same idea, that's all." ;; I wonder if this guy is trolling < 1301950418 686963 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be really sad if someone did this thing that I can't, so it should be made illegal! < 1301950425 177311 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's wrooooooooong for people to think things that I've thought! < 1301950437 216805 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Make #new private instead. < 1301950447 444546 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods. < 1301950448 457026 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: OTOH, that may break the common idiom: < 1301950449 315034 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do I do that. < 1301950454 914163 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo := AClass new < 1301950463 288644 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo: initialisationStuff; < 1301950464 167992 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/// < 1301950465 563681 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :bar: yupyup; < 1301950466 746383 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yourself. < 1301950467 764749 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: http://sprunge.us/TSfJ LINUX: ONLY THE FINEST IN LOGIC < 1301950476 340471 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Replace something with something; I'm too lazy to tell you what.) < 1301950483 317060 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Uhhhhhhhhhhhh, wow. < 1301950500 625406 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Why'd you want to do it? < 1301950507 423474 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I think it's as simple as actually I have no idea. < 1301950511 367672 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, you can't have private methods in Smalltalk. < 1301950517 826804 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Duh. < 1301950530 626940 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: But yeah, what does your keyword initialiser do that makes you want to ban plain new? < 1301950559 540215 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well, I'd like this object to represent a connection to IRC, and... hm. < 1301950564 799566 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: < 1301950570 555161 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :conn := IRCConnection new < 1301950575 947516 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : host: 'irc.freenode.net'; < 1301950581 189996 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : port: 666; < 1301950583 388073 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : yourself. < 1301950584 689098 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :conn connect. < 1301950584 895217 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods. < 1301950585 624883 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[...] < 1301950601 763532 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that better than connectTo:host:port:et:cetera:? < 1301950610 112506 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmmm, no. < 1301950613 796595 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods. < 1301950615 647881 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because you shouldn't be able to set them afterwards. < 1301950622 123889 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: OTOH, make it < 1301950622 288731 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: HALP, I'm starting to become convinced that bind mounts + chroot/setuid are all I need X-D < 1301950625 753654 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So how I'm currently doing things is perfect. Excellent. < 1301950626 516282 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :connectTo: < 1301950627 686493 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :connectTo:onPort: < 1301950643 49189 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :With connectTo: using the reasonable default. < 1301950646 383872 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(194, obviously!) < 1301950649 680083 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or 6667 :P) < 1301950663 260667 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Just nicer naming IMO < 1301950668 3397 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :conn := IRCConnection new. < 1301950674 165267 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :conn connectTo: 'irc.freenode.net' onPort: secret. < 1301950678 955644 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :withPort:withNick:withChannel: < 1301950679 863018 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1301950691 670206 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Ewwww. < 1301950698 187152 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :connectTo:withThePortConnectedToBeingThePortNumbered: < 1301950704 798121 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :conn := IRCConnection new. < 1301950709 1328 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :conn nickname: 'MyBot'. < 1301950710 590170 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :conn connectTo: 'irc.freenode.net' onPort: secret. < 1301950717 273989 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :nickname: should automatically decide whether it's connected or not :P < 1301950722 256053 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, a nickname: message. I definitely need that. < 1301950725 764445 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And send a NICK message if it is. < 1301950730 485439 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :If not, connectTo:onPort: will send it. < 1301950735 413867 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus avoiding TEH UGLY. < 1301950739 676539 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: And of course join: and part: < 1301950744 590016 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So < 1301950748 66190 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :conn := IRCConnection new < 1301950751 357578 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : nickname: 'MyBot'; < 1301950759 157196 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : connectTo: 'irc.freenode.net' onPort: secret; < 1301950763 99176 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : join: '#esoteric'; < 1301950764 393643 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : yourself. < 1301950778 422823 :calamari!~calamari@ip70-162-184-205.ph.ph.cox.net QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301950780 355149 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301950780 519001 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301950782 557807 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:3714::1 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301950782 722413 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301950787 56728 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301950787 536152 :Ilari_antrcomp!~user@2002:5870:3714:0:20e:a6ff:fe6f:2288 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301950793 946526 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301950796 899081 :yiyus!1242712427@je.je.je QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301950797 379783 :augur_!~augur@129.2.129.32 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301950805 511325 :lifthras1ir!~lifthrasi@61.251.165.38 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301950808 392394 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia QUIT :*.net *.split < 1301950814 775643 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also connectTo should probably return immediately, rather than waiting for the network to reply or whatever. < 1301950870 670376 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't wait for any replies, I think. So we're good. < 1301950919 570559 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you using Squeak or Pharo or what? < 1301950945 875981 :calamari!~calamari@ip70-162-184-205.ph.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1301950946 40346 :Ilari_antrcomp!~user@2002:5870:3714:0:20e:a6ff:fe6f:2288 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301950946 40469 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1301950946 40544 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1301950946 40617 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:3714::1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301950946 40690 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1301950946 40764 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1301950946 40838 :yiyus!1242712427@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1301950946 40911 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1301950946 40983 :lifthras1ir!~lifthrasi@61.251.165.38 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301950946 41055 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia JOIN :#esoteric < 1301950971 433521 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : Are you using Squeak or Pharo or what? < 1301951058 880558 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1301951065 25779 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Specifically, one of the former two. < 1301951069 917757 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Specifically, Pharo. < 1301951101 185477 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What should join: do when we're not connected? Throw an error? < 1301951107 786027 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Add it to the list of channels we should be in? < 1301951174 454065 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.32 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301951457 829567 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: The latter :P < 1301951486 296284 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: And part: should remove it... technically I think basically everything should work before you connect, including PRIVMSG. < 1301951493 474308 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you could say what you want to happen immediately after connect, then tell it to actually connect. < 1301951514 534867 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.32 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1301951608 2824 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm, you can't pass a structure to a varargs function, can you? < 1301951615 575348 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or can you, if you also pass its size? < 1301951637 223348 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in va_arg, you have to specify what type the arg is < 1301951650 514019 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but let's assume that you specify the right type < 1301951650 679096 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it could calculate the size from that < 1301951652 294590 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :by magic < 1301951661 922726 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but e.g. you can't pass a float to a variadic function < 1301951664 521453 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it gets upconverted to double < 1301951674 776165 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think floats get upconverted to anything < 1301951686 282006 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: um, yes, they do, for varargs < 1301951697 201448 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://c-faq.com/varargs/float.html < 1301951703 205940 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :A: In the variable-length part of variable-length argument lists, the old ``default argument promotions'' apply: arguments of type float are always promoted (widened) to type double, and types char and short int are promoted to int. Therefore, it is never correct to invoke va_arg(argp, float); instead you should always use va_arg(argp, double). Similarly, use va_arg(argp, int) to retrieve arguments which were originally char, short, or int. (For an < 1301951703 434443 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :us reasons, the last ``fixed'' argument, as handed to va_start, should not be widenable, either.) See also questions 11.3 and 15.2. < 1301951707 767300 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*structs get upconverted < 1301951713 559032 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know floats get upconverted, just typoed that they didn't < 1301951716 810129 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1301951727 89179 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was a bad typo < 1301951732 401705 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I thnk you can write a generic stack_push, but only in C99 < 1301951749 52068 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you can't say < 1301951753 794207 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :va_arg(ap, char[8]) < 1301951757 653784 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even if you can, it might be illegal to say < 1301951761 155022 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :va_arg(ap, char[obj_size]) < 1301951839 679038 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :void stack_push_(void *stack, ssize_t *ptr, size_t obj_size, ...) < 1301951839 883546 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :{ < 1301951839 883742 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : va_list ap; < 1301951839 883853 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : char *data; < 1301951839 883959 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : va_start(ap, obj_size); < 1301951840 698099 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : data = va_arg(ap, char[obj_size]); < 1301951842 677913 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : (*ptr)++; < 1301951844 677232 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : memcpy(stack + ptr, data, obj_size); < 1301951846 868572 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : va_end(ap); < 1301951848 749278 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :} < 1301951850 674565 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: behold the probably-invalid Cthulian horror < 1301951909 498538 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1301951911 902296 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :is char foo[a->b] valid? < 1301951912 744114 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :in C99 < 1301951916 500944 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor knows these things! < 1301951928 932622 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.32 JOIN :#esoteric < 1301952039 266532 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like a valid VLA in general. < 1301952104 796674 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, darn, I think this will fail if a pointer to an element is smaller than (void *) < 1301952155 170880 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I need a typeof too! oh woe! < 1301952156 906682 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is impossible < 1301952181 7489 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :otoh i could re-evaluate stack < 1301952216 348126 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and wait, stack_push could just be a macro in general... < 1301952282 407706 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/hRjV ;; an exercise in pointless < 1301952336 747959 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :In any case you can only portably call va_arg when the specified type is compatible with the actual type of the corresponding provided argument (after the default argument promotions); and "compatible type" is a rather strict requirement. < 1301952340 512170 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-13-135.tn.glocalnet.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1301952341 453245 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just realized that in Smalltalk, you can save the world. < 1301952400 608924 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Unfortunately types aren't values you can pass around :P < 1301952412 621251 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :C should be Lisp, dammit. < 1301952458 783193 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does Smalltalk have a nice way to denote a throwaway argument, like Haskell? < 1301952478 585648 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: You shouldn't have them. Why do you have them? < 1301952486 782195 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I realise I'm being annoyingly X-Y-problem here.) < 1301952500 673674 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also the type in va_arg needs to be named such that simply postfixing a * makes a pointer to that type, and "char[obj_size]*" doesn't seem to be anything sensible. < 1301952515 315693 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: WELL YOU MAKE IT WORK THEN :P < 1301952551 828477 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: because ifNotNilDo: takes a block that accepts one argument. < 1301952552 948469 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a feeling making it work completely portably is just not possible. (You need not have a general sort of stack to have a C, after all.) < 1301952563 318376 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Does [foo] not work as a block? < 1301952573 668042 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it doesn't work as a block that accepts one argument. < 1301952577 30064 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Also, it seems ifNotNilDo was removed from Pharo. < 1301952590 895501 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's strange, because I'm using it. < 1301952593 445673 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Pharo it’s been fixed long ago, and today somebody removed all sends of ifNotNilDo:, so the era of one of my “major small Squeak annoyances” finally completely ends today and ifNotNilDo: is history, at least in Pharo. < 1301952595 313312 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: use ifNotNil. < 1301952602 807477 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. < 1301952605 232181 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :anObject ifNotNil: [:obj | obj doThing]. < 1301952608 515339 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Don't throw away the argument. < 1301952617 699989 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know why you're meant to use the parameter. < 1301952623 507882 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But them's the breaks. < 1301952624 897942 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even though obj is always the same as anObject? < 1301952631 837498 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Err, it's not about the C stack. < 1301952641 52702 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: maybe it's not guaranteed to be! Who knows. < 1301952642 710965 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*M < 1301952645 412466 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(*Maybe) < 1301952723 202167 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yes, I see (now); but still, you could for example have an argument-passing system where floats and ints go to different stacks, and then va_arg'ing them without knowing the type's not going to be very easy. < 1301952751 37088 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: True. < 1301952752 285378 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're okay with only pushing objects you can take & of, you could have your macro provide sizes and pointers-to, but then you couldn't push literals. < 1301952766 36043 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though was it possible to take & of a compound literal? < 1301952800 871567 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you could somehow auto-declare a temp variable to use, you could & that. :p < 1301952871 398367 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"drawline(&(struct point){.x=1, .y=1}, &(struct point){.x=3, .y=4});" is listed as an example call when drawline expects a pointer to struct point. < 1301952896 128354 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ouch. < 1301952908 967182 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :So maybe your macro could wrap "x" to &(struct { typeof(x) field; }){ .field = x }. < 1301952915 643544 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Still needs typeof.) < 1301952953 294300 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Not if the declarer thing included a dummy < 1301952958 602671 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :struct dummy { type field; }; < 1301952964 834123 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1301952973 120825 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then malloced it to avoid the inevitable initialisation. < 1301953044 37122 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there was some sort of a rule that offsetof of the first struct member must be 0, so you should be able to then take that pointer and read sizeof(x) bytes out of it. (Though you need to cast it to a known pointer type before passing, either a void * or a char *.) < 1301953069 287806 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, they're maintaining the squeak os again < 1301953105 288219 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: The main thing was to avoid reevaluating the arguments. "So yeah." < 1301953122 755378 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is initialize supposed to call super initialize? < 1301953127 795435 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it probably is. < 1301953151 180000 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then again, maybe not. < 1301953213 621400 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: halp < 1301953218 243228 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: wat < 1301953238 829390 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: should the initialize message I define call super initialize? < 1301953255 22375 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Look at some subclass' initialize message, see if it does :P < 1301953258 23757 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think so but don't recall. < 1301953443 543399 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why yes, I do super initialize. < 1301953494 58919 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your MOM supernitialises. < 1301953505 853793 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :More like SuperLAMEISES!!!!!!~!!!!!!!!\ < 1301953531 244755 :pumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1301953567 749331 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'M SO LAME < 1301953574 813323 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Is it not joining here any more? < 1301953625 317644 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1301953625 605286 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't run it yet. :P < 1301953704 940081 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION runs it. < 1301953718 840502 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Dudes, you totally need to make it so you can MODIFY IT WHILE IT RUNS < 1301953736 906785 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Are you still making it hang or are you "[bot connect] fork"ing :P < 1301953743 489222 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*connectTo: ... < 1301953746 711610 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.cracked.com/blog/exploring-the-mysteries-of-the-mind-with-the-sims-3/ < 1301953759 407819 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I'm still making it hang. < 1301953773 615621 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Make the bot die and do that instead :P < 1301953790 442571 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you mean, make the bot die? I haven't run it yet. < 1301953981 571383 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1301954291 60739 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1301954770 175826 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1301954772 147895 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly QUIT :Quit: swatted to death < 1301954902 349637 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1301954948 278305 :pumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1301955196 142043 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1301957924 409650 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1301958148 197824 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION arrives. < 1301960174 746429 :cheater00!~cheater@g224203171.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1301960293 522390 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1301960352 458942 :cheater99!~cheater@85.181.136.245 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1301960448 364098 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-24-210.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1301960448 852835 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-24-210.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host < 1301960449 15738 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1301960675 227918 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.32 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1301960909 139688 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett, this isn't a MUD < 1301960958 990444 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: what isn't? < 1301960968 764293 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :#esoteric < 1301960971 846888 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods. < 1301960976 632313 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, hmm < 1301960994 522128 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not a dungeon. Although I think myndzi would disagree \m/ \m/ < 1301960995 56659 :myndzi!myndzi@c-76-28-158-10.hsd1.wa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :                                                          `\o/´ < 1301960995 241585 :myndzi!myndzi@c-76-28-158-10.hsd1.wa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :                                                            | < 1301960995 447623 :myndzi!myndzi@c-76-28-158-10.hsd1.wa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :                                                           /´\ < 1301960995 610803 :myndzi!myndzi@c-76-28-158-10.hsd1.wa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :                                                         (_| |_) < 1301961178 464270 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahh, myndzi. < 1301961183 650957 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ < 1301961189 898019 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aww. < 1301961202 38501 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ < 1301961208 980297 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, no? < 1301961214 558339 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ < 1301961218 998792 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :\m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ < 1301961222 817347 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :\m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ < 1301961226 525442 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :\m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ < 1301961228 914917 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION shrugs. < 1301961230 665985 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :\m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ < 1301961233 469036 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :\m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ < 1301961240 827364 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ < 1301961244 39206 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :\m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ < 1301961251 312412 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :aww < 1301961260 938778 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :\m/ \m/ \m/ < 1301961262 664479 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, maybe myndzi's \o/ limit is two \o/ s or something. < 1301961263 600486 :myndzi!myndzi@c-76-28-158-10.hsd1.wa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :                      |                | < 1301961263 784300 :myndzi!myndzi@c-76-28-158-10.hsd1.wa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :                     /|               /| < 1301961299 702610 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or \o/ maybe \o/ they \o/ just \o/ have \o/ to \o/ be \o/ well-separated. < 1301961300 605982 :myndzi!myndzi@c-76-28-158-10.hsd1.wa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :    |         |        |        |        |      ¦      | < 1301961300 830287 :myndzi!myndzi@c-76-28-158-10.hsd1.wa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :   /|        /´\      /`\      /`\      /´\    ´¸¨    /| < 1301961313 420181 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's that sixth one? < 1301961510 334050 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION suddenly wants to make a four-dimensional maze in LambdaMOO