00:07:11 <tswett> I definitely won't be present in any shape for about ten more minutes.
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00:17:35 <tswett> Nope, I'm not here just yet. Give it one more minute.
00:18:15 <tswett> Hi, everyone. How's it going?
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00:40:29 <tswett> Are you subtly hinting at something?
00:40:55 <elliott> I will, however, note that you seem to be 40 minutes late.
00:40:57 <elliott> Or is it 20 minutes early?
00:41:38 <tswett> Nah, it's 40 minutes late.
00:41:43 <tswett> Except I arrived about 20 minutes ago.
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01:13:49 <Gregor> I think it's time for me to write a conductor program >_>
01:13:49 <Gregor> With Gregor Brand Repeatability™
01:14:26 <elliott> This snetence will neer be said again.
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01:33:00 <zzo38> I do not like the page User:Ehird, it is too slow.
01:34:17 <Sgeo> zzo38, use a browser that was norn born out of NIH syndrome?
01:35:49 <zzo38> It is slow with all of them.
01:36:12 <elliott> I doubt you have tried all browsers.
01:36:15 <elliott> Anyway, an HTML page cannot be inherently slow.
01:36:33 <elliott> If you are saying that it renders slowly, that is a factor of your hardware, and your entire software stack. I cannot help you.
01:36:52 <elliott> I don't think anything is forcing you to visit that page.
01:40:06 <zzo38> Is better making the browser program that assumes HTML and scripts and stuff is all trying to control you, and refuses to render anything that might be slow, making whenever there is a timer to make a fading effect or sliding effect, speeds it up and does not render the frames in between, and that the script doesn't know your actual screen size, won't load all the images/CSS if there is too many, won't know your scrolled position, etc.
01:40:19 <elliott> My user page is not trying to control you.
01:40:47 <elliott> In fact, it is patently impossible for a web page to control you as a person unless it was, e.g. written by a very crafty superintelligence.
01:40:55 <elliott> Certainly a snowman and a gradient cannot do so.
01:41:09 <elliott> Anyway, all my page is is some <b> tags. There is no JavaScript involved.
01:41:15 <zzo38> elliott: I am not refering to your user page. I am meaning in general, even if it is not true; at least making such assumption makes the computer faster and prevents dumb things on web pages from working.
01:47:14 <zzo38> And if there is a width specification for the entire body, that specification is ignored if it would be less than the natural width (except for printing and print preview, in which case it is not ignored); most timers are not used; what can do if hovering is limited; popups are severely limited and open in a different way than before; keyboard and mouse events are dealt with in a new way; and so on.
01:51:40 <zzo38> Make up a new temperament and make a music
01:53:55 <zzo38> O, go drink hydroxic acid.
01:56:49 <zzo38> O, go drink hydroxic acid, please.
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02:38:04 <Sgeo> Aww, I wanted to ask zzo38 a question
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02:47:18 <Sgeo> elliott, about why he dislikes the removal of mana burn
02:47:33 <elliott> Are you sure you want to know?
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02:56:50 <myndzi> they removed mana burn?
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02:57:14 <myndzi> i guess it doesn't make a huge difference in many cases
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02:57:32 <myndzi> but it would allow people to be less careful (and therefore less skillful) so i don't liek
03:11:21 <Sgeo> http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Mana_burn
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04:29:50 <Patashu> any of you good with pl/sql? since the other channel I tried is idle
04:30:50 <Patashu> (that wasn't me pinging you tho)
04:31:37 <quintopia> elliott: Huffman coding is terrible for compressing short strings. the map from codes->characters takes up at least half the length of the "compressed" string even when optimally encoded itself. is there not something better?
04:34:38 <quintopia> someone should make a tl;dr template for esoteric wiki :P
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05:20:03 <myndzi> well, there's always fixed tables
05:21:30 <myndzi> or something like LZW where the information is implicit, ya?
05:34:08 <quintopia> lzw includes a lot of "instructions" in the text doesn't it?
05:38:35 <quintopia> also lzw appears to be poor at compressing large files compared to other algorithms, why would it do better on short sentences?
05:42:35 <quintopia> but you're right that a fixed huffman table (based on average frequencies of characters in english language) would probably do well enough
05:44:38 <quintopia> i should read up on arithmetic coding
05:49:43 <quintopia> "Recent PPM implementations are among the best-performing lossless compression programs for natural language text."
05:54:50 <myndzi> yes, ppm are pretty awesome, but take a long time
05:55:17 <myndzi> i don't know how lzw compares to say, huffman, but you can't very well complain about small strings and then use large files as the counterexample
05:55:33 <myndzi> unless i guess you're looking for all-around compression?
05:55:48 <myndzi> anyway, there's some crazy version of paq
05:56:03 <myndzi> that has like a neural network that governs the output based on a series of separate predictor models
05:56:14 <myndzi> or something like that
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08:14:22 <Patashu> I have some 'pl/sql'. I airquote it because on a logical level it does what I need to, but it doesn't fit the grammar so it won't compile
08:14:29 <Patashu> can you help me think of ways to rework it so it will? http://pastebin.com/2ECDXR4i
08:15:06 <Patashu> as an example, the holiday function does not compile, because I cannot use a subquery in that context
08:15:32 <Patashu> feel free to ask questions
08:17:24 <cheater-> where exactly are you using it?
08:18:04 <cheater-> um can you repaste the text not in an sql pastebin, because it's annoying to read
08:19:46 <cheater-> so, what server are you using it with?
08:21:50 <Patashu> oh well yeah for obvious reasons you won't be able to run it
08:21:53 <Patashu> since I'm on a dif. server
08:22:15 <Patashu> oracle sql developer anddd a university db
08:22:16 <cheater-> or do you have this theoretical pl/sql supporting server that doesn't exist
08:22:28 <cheater-> there's no reason to use PL for this
08:23:26 <cheater-> you need a table of future dates that have a bit flag for if it's a holiday or not
08:23:26 <Patashu> yeah I was making good work of reducing it down to just joins
08:23:32 <Patashu> and the day of week / holiday logic is a thing
08:23:41 <cheater-> yeah, that's where you use "if"
08:23:48 <Patashu> I thought you can't use if within sql
08:23:52 <Patashu> which is where I'm having trouble
08:24:07 <cheater-> http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.0/en/if-statement.html
08:24:19 <cheater-> if mysql can do it, oracle can do it
08:24:31 <Patashu> yeah that looks like it's in mysql's equivalent to pl/sql
08:24:40 <Patashu> I can use if when it's not pure sql
08:24:44 <Patashu> but if it's mid-query I can't
08:24:50 <cheater-> http://www.devx.com/tips/Tip/20063
08:24:56 <cheater-> yeah that's why you do four joins
08:25:21 <cheater-> or actually no.. just two ? i guess
08:25:37 <cheater-> you do one big select for when the future day is a holiday, and one big select for when it's not
08:25:57 <Patashu> a better way of doing it than I was trying
08:26:02 <Patashu> I guess I may as well give in and split it into two queries
08:26:12 <cheater-> when it's not, you just select rows in the past that were not holidays and use a limit clause
08:26:13 <Patashu> so it's not like blurp da blurp da blurp FUCKASS LOGIC IN ONE QUERY
08:26:25 <cheater-> when it is, you do a select over the past holidays with a limit
08:26:51 <cheater-> it's really something you could golf down to a oneliner
08:27:29 <Patashu> let me think about this then come back to you
08:28:53 <Patashu> temp table with the future dates and whether they're a holiday or not
08:28:55 <Patashu> well I'd do that in a loop rather
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08:43:39 <Patashu> I reworked it to be more sql'y http://pastebin.com/3mfVndyc
08:43:45 <Patashu> I think I can make it better but hmmm
08:44:44 <Patashu> I hate the extra join when I'm actually making the forecast, but the way you have to do it is weird, see, you have to make a forecast whenever that tnifrmp/lr/hh/dayofweek combination has data and I have to not make one whenever it doesn't. however, if it turns out to be a holiday I have to not use the energy average from that dayofweek and instead use the holiday one, and put all 0s if none
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08:52:26 <Patashu> wait lol, it's telling me boolean isn't a valid datatype? one second
08:53:10 <Patashu> oh wow, it isn't. it's only valid in pl/sql
08:55:26 <Patashu> I have to store it as a char or number(1) apparently. gay
08:55:30 <cheater99> throw away your code and just build it up the way i told you
08:55:47 <Patashu> yeah, I tried to and I ended up with that again, so I'm obviously not thinking about it the right way
08:56:10 <cheater99> <cheater-> you do one big select for when the future day is a holiday, and one big select for when it's not
08:56:16 <cheater99> (1) <cheater-> when it's not, you just select rows in the past that were not holidays and use a limit clause
08:57:03 <Patashu> also nope, no bit http://ss64.com/ora/syntax-datatypes.html
08:58:09 <cheater99> create table tbool (bool char check (bool in(0,1));
08:58:17 <Patashu> to do this for every future day
08:58:22 <Patashu> should I create a table with 14 dates in it
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08:58:25 <Patashu> or enclose it in a 1..13 loop
08:58:27 <cheater99> but never mind that just use a char
08:58:32 <Patashu> or is there another way, synthesize a table in a subquery?
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08:58:42 <cheater99> ok just do the select before i get tired
09:02:21 <cheater99> i'll brb, need to go out for a sec
09:07:07 <oklopol> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
09:07:36 <Patashu> ok here's my attempt http://pastebin.com/mr46GfAP
09:10:23 <Patashu> oh forgot something in the holiday version
09:18:48 <Patashu> making the controversial step of fixing it until it compiles O_O
09:19:34 <Patashu> GOT IT TO COMPILE *rocks da fuck out*
09:20:51 <Patashu> http://pastebin.com/nN5BpbRW
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09:23:00 <Patashu> it's to make the table of days I'm forecasting to to join against
09:23:04 <Patashu> is there a pure sql way of implementing that?
09:23:19 <cheater99> select trunc(sysdate+rowid) from dual where rowid > 0 and rowid < 14;
09:23:32 <cheater99> i'm not sure what the row id variable is named in oracle
09:23:43 <Patashu> dual only has one row but that's a good idea
09:24:09 <cheater99> but yeah there was something like that
09:25:48 <Patashu> wow, I tried running it, took 28 seconds. that is an awful time
09:26:39 <Patashu> and it didn't appear to make any rows either lmao
09:27:21 <cheater99> still better than your shitty pl/sql
09:27:33 <Patashu> yeah. 5 marks if it compiles
09:27:35 <cheater99> because it can be optimized and is functional
09:27:39 <Patashu> and 5 marks if you can run it and it does something
09:27:43 <Patashu> now it just needs to do the correct thing
09:27:55 <cheater99> i hadn't been through the code yet
09:27:56 <Patashu> any thoughts? here's the output: 0 rows
09:28:05 <Patashu> it ran for 28 seconds then did nothing
09:28:45 <cheater99> from v_nem_rm16 n join forecast_day f on to_char(f.day, 'D') = to_char(n.day, 'D')
09:28:45 <cheater99> and f.day not in (select trunc(holiday_date) from dbp_holiday)
09:29:00 <cheater99> shouldn't that be "where f.day not in ..." ?
09:29:07 <Patashu> btw dbp_holiday has 50 rows and v_nem_rm16 has 47k rows
09:29:31 <Patashu> I'll take it down to just the non-holiday version
09:29:36 <Patashu> then look at the bulkier half
09:30:18 <Patashu> forecast_day is the table holding the 14 days into the future I'm forecasting for
09:30:22 <Patashu> holiday_date has every date that is a holiday
09:30:47 <cheater99> i think your to_char(f.day, 'D') might be screwy
09:31:34 <Patashu> it returns the day of the week, 7 for sunday 1 for monday etc
09:31:42 <Patashu> unless you mean the USAGE of it
09:31:59 <cheater99> so what does the "non holidays" part do
09:32:15 <Patashu> it runs in 0.3 seconds with just the non holidays part
09:33:00 <cheater99> that's probably because v_nem_rm16 is not indexed.
09:33:08 <Patashu> I have no clue if it's indexed or not
09:33:13 <cheater99> ok just select one of em and compare it to the data you get
09:33:40 <Patashu> I have no idea how to check my results except by doing another query
09:34:01 <cheater99> query past days and calculate average by hand.
09:34:54 <cheater99> also, for one combination of your three variables
09:37:33 <Patashu> ok I tried one blah blah combination
09:37:36 <Patashu> looks like the same result
09:37:43 <Patashu> so I'll check that as 'complete or ought to be'
09:37:46 <Patashu> how do I do the non holiday part
09:37:54 <Patashu> because that's what made my query take 30 sec to produce nothing
09:40:58 <Patashu> pastebinning again http://pastebin.com/ysL5UyUP also thanks SO MUCH hahaha
09:43:42 <Patashu> anyway I take it I made a horrible cross join by mistake so I need to Not Do That
09:46:07 <Patashu> oh wow. only took 3 seconds this time
09:47:39 <Patashu> oh. it still only produces 28464 rows :(
09:47:42 <Patashu> so the holiday part isn't doing its job
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09:54:30 <Patashu> okay, this is weird. if I do this:
09:54:31 <Patashu> select trunc(holiday_date) from dbp_holiday
09:54:32 <Patashu> select trunc(day) from v_nem_rm16;
09:54:52 <Patashu> has he not put any past holidays aligning with data? because...that makes it hard to test!
09:55:00 <Patashu> nvl means 'in case of null, put this instead'
09:55:22 <cheater99> ok i think you need to soften your algorithm
09:55:40 <Patashu> it takes a couple of seconds
09:55:52 <Patashu> and (if this were to actually be used in production) it'd run once a day
09:56:05 <cheater99> or is it going to run on a high availability service?
09:56:24 <Patashu> see what I just put up there?
09:56:33 <Patashu> apparently no past holidays align with data he's put in
09:56:37 <Patashu> if that statement is correct
09:57:02 <cheater99> well then try selecting a holiday in the next 14 days
09:57:09 <cheater99> if you don't find any here's your answer
09:57:52 <cheater99> for one of those holidays, select all days from the past on that weekday, and only select rows where that day is a holiday
09:58:32 <Patashu> 22/apr/11 is listed as a holiday, so is 23 and 25, and today's the 10 so
10:00:03 <Patashu> if I do this: select day from forecast_day where day in (select trunc(holiday_date) from dbp_holiday); I get 22nd and 23rd of april back
10:00:21 <Patashu> if I do this: select day from v_nem_rm16 where day in (select trunc(holiday_date) from dbp_holiday);
10:00:31 <Patashu> so yeah I literally can't test it right now unless I make my own data to test it on
10:05:58 <quintopia> myndzi: i doubt it's a neural network. i think it would be easier and have better results if they applied boosting or WM to their set of predictive experts.
10:09:37 <Patashu> I just realized i can't count to 14
10:09:57 <Patashu> like the lecturer literally said
10:10:07 <Patashu> 'you'd be surprised how many people don't forecast for 14 days exactly'
10:10:10 <Patashu> one of those people was almost me
10:16:11 <Patashu> also I really love the setup oracle sql developer gives you
10:16:14 <Patashu> you have a big blank worksheet
10:16:18 <Patashu> you can select any block of text and execute it
10:16:30 <Patashu> so you can just doodle wherever your cursor happens to be I <3 it
10:28:02 <cheater99> also sql developer is like a really old version
10:28:09 <cheater99> what you want is jdeveloper and use the sql bits in that
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10:58:46 <oerjan> This snetence will neer be said again.
11:03:48 <oklopol> you are a real bastard u know that
11:06:26 <oerjan> well at least i'm not complex.
11:12:45 <oklopol> so i have this red stuff that's really hot and i never learn
11:25:04 <cheater99> oerjan: have you read laws of form?
11:26:22 <Vorpal> oerjan, what does "neer" there mean
11:26:44 <oerjan> Vorpal: ask elliott...
11:27:05 <Vorpal> oerjan, he is not here atm, since you used it I presume you know what it means?
11:27:26 <oerjan> i was _assuming_ it meant never.
11:28:11 <oerjan> also you would seem to be missing the joke again
11:28:21 <Vorpal> oerjan, there was a joke?
11:29:00 <oerjan> that would be telling.
11:29:22 <oerjan> but searching for neer in the logs _should_ clear things up.
11:30:42 <cheater99> http://www.4shared.com/get/bBAP7ovO/G-spencer-Brown-Laws-of-Form-1.html
11:47:47 <oklopol> sounds like a load of crap to me
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12:57:24 <cheater99> oklopol: it's a formalization of mathematical logic
12:57:42 <cheater99> oklopol: it allows you to evaluate statements such as "This sentence is false."
13:10:20 <oklopol> :OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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13:38:50 <cheater99> also it was even mentioned by russell as a good book
13:39:10 <cheater99> and in fact the preface quotes him saying he's happy someone came up with this stuff before he died
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15:25:35 <ZOMGMODULES> "There is no support for user defined generics yet. However, three built-in classes List, Map, and Func can be parameterized using a special syntax."
15:26:26 <ZOMGMODULES> sadly, it does not seem to be the SAME special syntax used for all three type constructors
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15:38:42 <Vorpal> <ZOMGMODULES> sadly, it does not seem to be the SAME special syntax used for all three type constructors <-- what language?
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15:47:14 <elliott> 04:31:37: <quintopia> elliott: Huffman coding is terrible for compressing short strings. the map from codes->characters takes up at least half the length of the "compressed" string even when optimally encoded itself. is there not something better?
15:47:21 <elliott> quintopia: fix the map, duh
15:47:33 <elliott> 04:34:38: <quintopia> someone should make a tl;dr template for esoteric wiki :P
15:47:33 <elliott> someone should buy an attention span :)
15:48:05 <elliott> 05:38:35: <quintopia> also lzw appears to be poor at compressing large files compared to other algorithms, why would it do better on short sentences?
15:54:28 <elliott> omg i just missed zomgmodules
15:54:56 <elliott> cheater discovers worst book ever, loves it, zomgmodules appears, disappears
15:55:00 <elliott> that sounds like synchronicity to me
15:55:15 * elliott tries to find the author's proof of riemann hypothesis
15:55:32 <elliott> [[In a 1976 letter to the Editor of Nature, Spencer-Brown claimed a proof of the four-color theorem, which is not computer-assisted.[2] The preface of the 1979 edition of Laws of Form repeats that claim, and further states that the generally accepted computational proof by Appel, Haken, and Koch has 'failed' (page xii). Spencer-Brown's claimed proof of the four-color theorem has yet to find any defenders; Kauffman provides a detailed review of pa
15:55:38 <elliott> mmf where's the riemann one!
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15:56:44 <elliott> http://www.mathematik.uni-muenchen.de/~linde/weblog/GSB-RHproof.pdf
15:57:51 <elliott> http://www.lawsofform.org/gsb/nature.html ;; ooh, the four colour theorem too!
15:57:57 <elliott> his genius knows no bounds
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16:11:33 <Vorpal> <elliott> omg i just missed zomgmodules <-- "just"? It was about over 15 minutes.
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16:14:40 <Vorpal> elliott, I presume he didn't publish either in peer reviewed papers?
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16:41:28 <elliott> anyway 15 minutes is 0 seconds, on a global scale
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16:45:51 <Vorpal> elliott, well, on a truly global scale, you just missed Archimedes too.
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17:20:30 <Vorpal> elliott, which MI game do you think is best?
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17:34:36 <Vorpal> WHY are PC cases so stupid.
17:34:53 <Vorpal> hdds should be at the back, and connectors at the front. Well okay, power connector could be at the back
17:35:33 <Vorpal> I have two usb connectors on the front. And the hdd bays
17:35:44 <Vorpal> when you think about it, this arrangement makes no sense
17:35:57 <Vorpal> unless you have hot-swap bays for the hdds, which I don't
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18:01:52 <zzo38> I invented a Dungeons&Dragons class called "Feater" class, they get feats but not much else
18:03:06 <Vorpal> zzo38, what's the point of it?
18:06:53 <zzo38> To make a new class, and see if it works. I put feats at every even number level and some weaker things at odd number levels
18:07:02 <zzo38> I don't know if it is good, yet.
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18:38:25 <Gregor> Is there a good portable MIDI library? That is, for both reading MIDI files and for communicating with MIDI devices. portmidi/portsmf doesn't look too promising, though it might be sufficient.
18:38:41 <Gregor> (That is, does anybody happen to know one)
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18:38:47 <zzo38> I don't know of one.
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18:40:42 <elliott> Gregor: I suspect the two things will be separate
18:41:00 <Gregor> Well, that's fine, but I just don't know if portmidi/portsmf is the best we can do :P
18:42:43 <elliott> Gregor: portaudio is pretty popular
18:42:45 <elliott> i'm assuming those are part of it
18:43:10 <Gregor> But AFAICT, portmidi sucks and nobody ever uses it :P
18:43:17 <elliott> well only fags use midi, any quetions
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18:48:22 <Sgeo__> zzo38, why do you dislike the removal of mana burn?
18:50:58 <zzo38> Sgeo__: I like the rule of mana burn, it allows some strategy. There are also rules that I didn't like too, such as some of the rules relating to planeswalker cards (I like the idea, but not the implementation; I also dislike the name for confusion with "Plainswalk"), rule about a Aura which is also a creature being discarded, and so on.
18:54:41 <zzo38> I have created some of my own variant rules for a variant of the game, such as rules for "Playercard" type, and for "entities" which is a generalization of "objects", etc. I do, however, like the name "Exile zone" for what was called "remove from game" zone, since it isn't really remove from game. However, I would rather call the "Library" the "draw zone", the "Graveyard" the "discard zone", and maybe calling "in play" (or "Battlefield") the "p
18:55:39 <zzo38> (Did the message get cut off?)
18:59:25 <zzo38> If so, where did it get cut?
19:01:53 <Sgeo__> zzo38, Portal I think had more "game-y" names
19:01:57 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
19:02:53 <zzo38> ...and maybe calling "in play" (or "Battlefield") the "permanent zone".
19:05:48 <zzo38> I have invented rules for the "playercard" type that counts as both a player and a permanent at the same time. They never get a turn, but if they make choices, their choices are decided by their controller. The number of their life points is equal to the number of their loyalty counters (or perhaps rename them to "life counters"?), loss of life results in loss of counters and gain life results gain counters.
19:05:56 <zzo38> If a playercard wins or loses the game, it is discarded.
19:06:06 <zzo38> (And the game is not over.)
19:06:20 -!- FireFly has joined.
19:07:58 <zzo38> (Note, when I was trying to describe these various of my rules to some other people who played the game, they did not understand and thought I was trying to make the life total into another player.)
19:20:13 <Vorpal> <zzo38> (Did the message get cut off?) <-- you might want an IRC client that automatically splits at the best word boundary
19:25:41 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:26:22 <zzo38> Vorpal: I could program in a maximum if necessary, and then it will ding like some typewriters might.
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20:40:43 <elliott> Gregor will be so happy, they've compiled poppler and freetype to JS.
20:44:57 <ais523> does that mean you can write a JS-only PDF reader?
20:45:11 <elliott> http://syntensity.com/static/poppler.html
20:45:15 <elliott> (external pdf loading only works on FF4)
20:45:29 <elliott> well, I think it's a one-page reader, but whatever
20:48:44 <Vorpal> <elliott> Gregor will be so happy, they've compiled poppler and freetype to JS. <-- uh does that mean they have a generic C->JS compiler?
20:49:27 <Vorpal> how is the performance?
20:50:05 <Vorpal> elliott, how is the performance though
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21:13:22 <ais523> hey elliott: out of all the common household objects found in most homes, which of them would it be most hilarious to actually be sentient and be plotting a conspiracy, but too simple-minded to do anything but set up levels of bureaucracy?
21:13:34 <oerjan> Gregor: um it seems like glogbot doesn't show nick changes...
21:13:41 <elliott> ais523: your question has floored me
21:14:15 <elliott> ais523: mainly because of http://qntm.org/socks :)
21:14:24 <elliott> that may be a cheating way to answer
21:14:58 <Gregor> ais523: The occupants.
21:15:23 <ais523> Gregor: that's a nice lateral-thinking solution, I suppose
21:16:14 <elliott> ais523: indeed it's cheating?
21:16:18 <elliott> ais523: what on earth is this for anyway :)
21:16:47 <ais523> I love the way you assumed there was an actual motive behind the question
21:17:00 <ais523> (there was, but it seems like a surprising assumption)
21:17:19 <elliott> ais523: well, /usually/ you don't ask things quite so... err... that
21:17:27 <elliott> especially not to someone in particular :)
21:17:27 <olsner> assuming that may make answering more fun
21:17:42 <elliott> maybe ais523 is figuring out how solid the defences of his race, the washing machines, are
21:17:47 <elliott> he has concluded that WE SUSPECT NOTHING
21:17:55 <elliott> and will be relaying this information on to his masters
21:19:32 <oerjan> <elliott> 04:34:38: <quintopia> someone should make a tl;dr template for esoteric wiki :P
21:19:54 <oerjan> i've been thinking that the language list should contain one-line descriptions
21:20:11 -!- quintopi1 has changed nick to quintopia.
21:20:12 * elliott grrs as he removes an {{unsigned}}
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21:20:28 <elliott> hey ais523: where do P.S.es go in a letter?
21:20:30 <elliott> after your signature or before?
21:20:35 <elliott> or do you put another signature after the P.S.?
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21:20:43 <ais523> after the signature, no extra signature
21:20:50 <olsner> I start my PS:es after the signature
21:21:10 <ais523> well, you can do PSes in email too
21:21:18 <elliott> observe: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Gravity/w/w/wiki/Talk:Gravity/w/index.php&diff=21796&oldid=21775
21:21:21 <ais523> although there's less of a reason
21:21:26 <elliott> apparently you're meant to have two signatures!
21:21:57 <elliott> `addquote <Gregor> That's for $literals in the parser. It should maybe be atol too, but probably you shouldn't have nonterminals with more than two billion children.
21:22:00 <HackEgo> 358) <Gregor> That's for $literals in the parser. It should maybe be atol too, but probably you shouldn't have nonterminals with more than two billion children.
21:22:45 <olsner> I fairly often have PS:es in my e-mails
21:23:03 <ais523> I thought the purpose of a PS: was so that you could write more after you'd already written/typeset the letter
21:23:27 <olsner> maybe it is/was ... I use them as appendices
21:23:48 <elliott> it's for snarky remarks and footnote-alikes
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21:39:06 <cheater99> http://pophangover.com/wp-content/uploads/will-ferrell-twitter.jpg
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21:46:59 <zzo38> Now both logs seems to be broken.
21:47:33 <elliott> clog is broken, but Gregor's is still on
21:47:50 <zzo38> To me they both seem broken.
21:48:00 <elliott> What is broken about Gregor's?
21:48:24 <zzo38> Gregor's won't load at all. The clog will load, but there is no messages past 12:35:48
21:48:44 <oerjan> it does seem a tad non-loading
21:48:44 <elliott> It loads for me. Your internet connection is probably having problems. clog is indeed broken.
21:48:53 <elliott> It loads perfectly here...
21:49:22 <oerjan> actually i had to reload it too, but then it worked
21:50:27 <oerjan> Gregor: ok the nick change complaint was just the logs failing to update until now, then
21:50:57 <oerjan> although at that time reloading didn't work either
21:51:47 <oerjan> and _now_ it updated without even reloading, just using forward button in browser
21:51:58 -!- clog has joined.
21:52:16 <oerjan> now #esoteric is clogged again!
21:53:20 <zzo38> When I write a letter, the postscript (PS) message is after the "Sincerely" line, especially when writing by hand. When writing a letter by computer I usually do not use a postscript message.
21:53:46 <elliott> i never say anything sincerely
21:53:55 <olsner> who writes letters by hand? really?
21:54:18 <zzo38> olsner: You mean, you don't write letters by hand?
21:54:23 <oerjan> you should sign them Duck, A Quack
21:54:37 <elliott> oerjan: i did that once but then i lost my medical license?
21:54:38 <olsner> afaict, there has been no reason to do that since about 1990 which was before I learned to write
21:54:39 <oerjan> and them include a homeopathic bomb
21:54:54 <ais523> is a homeopathic one one that contains only one atom of actual explosive?
21:55:05 <elliott> ais523: erm, since when do homeopathic remedies contain a whole ATOM??
21:55:16 <ais523> elliott: some of them probably do, by chance
21:55:17 <Zwaarddijk> do people add postscript messages to every message, and as par for the course?
21:55:25 <zzo38> ais523: Then it will only explode a little bit?
21:55:29 <elliott> ais523: more like, they're made out of random rain
21:55:34 <Zwaarddijk> or do they do like it originally was meant- to add something you think of after writing it, but before sending it
21:55:35 <elliott> ais523: after all, it's probably rained once or twice in chernobyl
21:55:38 <elliott> ais523: and that was nuclear
21:56:08 <zzo38> Zwaarddijk: When I add a postscript message, it is usually for that purpose.
21:56:59 <Zwaarddijk> zzo38: I believe some people think postscripts somehow are proof that they're good writers well versed in the art of writing letters, and so add them _while composing the letter_
21:57:45 <elliott> postscripts are for snarky comments
21:58:13 <zzo38> elliott: I doubt water memory can last for even one second in a gravitational field (or even outside of a gravitational field), but other people think they can make water memory with telephones.
21:58:14 <oerjan> PS: Postscripts don't obey ends of discussion
21:58:44 <elliott> `addquote <zzo38> elliott: I doubt water memory can last for even one second in a gravitational field (or even outside of a gravitational field), but other people think they can make water memory with telephones.
21:58:47 <HackEgo> 359) <zzo38> elliott: I doubt water memory can last for even one second in a gravitational field (or even outside of a gravitational field), but other people think they can make water memory with telephones.
21:59:24 <oerjan> i assume he means that without gravitation, at least water shape might be preserved...
22:00:10 <oerjan> hm wait surface tension would ruin that
22:00:43 <elliott> oerjan: when you assume, you make an ass out of u and zzo38
22:01:23 <oerjan> i assume you are talking out of your ass
22:03:25 <zzo38> Zwaarddijk: Sometimes I write the postscript for things that I want to write but that does not belong to the letter, but usually it is for things I forgot.
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22:14:05 <Gregor> In 2002, the Roman composer Nicola Sani composed Con Fuoco (for hyperbass flute and 8-track magnetic tape), <-- wtf
22:15:12 <oerjan> `translatefromto it en fuoco
22:15:14 <elliott> Gregor: Ten times more awesome than ANYTHING YOU WILL EVER DO
22:15:27 <Gregor> elliott: *sobblecopter*
22:23:59 <tswett> Pienso que la palabra que buscas es "pedo".
22:27:58 <elliott> tswett: I'm a paedophile, yes.
22:27:59 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:30:00 <tswett> Como entrenar tu dragón.
22:31:52 <elliott> Ooh. All I can say is that two's complement only has to be actually implemented where the resulting numbers are actually used; a simple addition or subtraction module wouldn't care a bit (no pun intended). --Ihope127 01:49, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
22:31:55 <elliott> WHAT ARE YOU DOING ON MY WIKIPEDIA TALK PAGE
22:32:35 <tswett> What are you talking about? I have no idea who that is.
22:32:47 <tswett> My Wikipedia account is User:Tanner Swett.
22:33:19 <elliott> tswett: Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure
22:34:18 <elliott> On nicknames: 10.08.22:11:56:02 <tswett> But this one is awful.
22:34:29 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
22:34:31 -!- elliott has joined.
22:34:37 <ais523> elliott: why the /cycle?
22:34:42 <tswett> Was I saying that the username "tswett" is awful?
22:34:55 <tswett> elliott: I don't believe you.
22:34:55 <ais523> whereas my mistakes tend to be parts, not cycles
22:35:04 <elliott> tswett: 11:55:55 <Warrigal> The only nick I'm actually considering is tswett, so if you want to take what I want from me, register that one.
22:35:07 <elliott> 11:55:59 --- nick: swett -> tswett
22:35:07 <elliott> 11:56:02 <tswett> But this one is awful.
22:35:37 <tswett> It has ceased to be awful.
22:35:51 <elliott> tswett: Note "swett -> tswett" :P
22:36:23 <tswett> Did I also change nicks in between '5:55 and '5:59?
22:37:06 <tswett> So there were two of me in play at the time.
22:37:13 <tswett> Funny what can happen with today's technology.
22:37:29 <tswett> No, that's impossible. Even with today's technology.
22:37:49 <elliott> That's what I want you to think.
22:38:20 <tswett> You're pretty benevolent, so I should probably think whatever you want me to think.
22:38:26 <tswett> What else do you want me to think?
22:38:54 <elliott> "Giving all my money except that which I require to survive to elliott and devoting my life to developing @ is the best possible thing I could do."
22:39:38 <tswett> Well, I'll probably have a much better time surviving if I go through university.
22:39:54 <tswett> And I'll probably have a much better time developing @ if I survive.
22:39:59 <elliott> That statement was only in the context of money.
22:40:14 <tswett> So I should put all my time and money toward university.
22:40:42 <elliott> tswett: "Spending lots of my free time on developing @ is an excellent idea. Free time is defined as those periods of time in which I have completed all currently necessary work for university."
22:41:12 <ais523> hey, which Windows IRC client should I recommend to people?
22:41:31 <ais523> I thought that might be the answer
22:41:35 <elliott> ais523: more seriously, one of the free XChats
22:41:36 <tswett> PuTTY is pretty good if you know what you're doing.
22:41:48 <elliott> tswett: PuTTY is not an IRC client by itself.
22:41:52 <elliott> Unless you like to type PRIVMSG a lot.
22:41:56 <elliott> ais523: http://www.silverex.org/news/
22:42:05 <tswett> Precisely what I'm saying.
22:42:33 <zzo38> I use PuTTY, but still, it is not good as an IRC client by itself (for more than one reason, actually; it isn't only because of typing PRIVMSG a lot).
22:42:33 <elliott> ais523: I think http://code.google.com/p/xchat-wdk/ is more actively developed
22:43:05 <zzo38> Like, you would need the messages being received not to override what you are typing, and also ping-pong, as well.
22:43:22 <elliott> ais523: indeed (http://code.google.com/p/xchat-wdk/wiki/InfoComparison)
22:43:31 <elliott> silverex seems to be closed source, which is ugh
22:43:40 <ais523> what license is xchat under?
22:43:58 <elliott> ais523: GPL, but the Windows builds are for-pay
22:44:12 <elliott> (they used to be free, but they decided they weren't getting enough money off suckers)
22:44:32 <ais523> oh, GPL, but pay for them to give you the binaries?
22:44:56 <elliott> ais523: the source tree doesn't work on windows, IIRC
22:45:00 <elliott> thus why xchat-wdk and the like have to patch it
22:45:04 <elliott> because it's a Unix program
22:45:34 <ais523> in that case, they're violating the GPL, but it doesn't matter if they wrote all the code themselves because they could have issued a separate license to themselves
22:45:47 <elliott> how on earth does that violate the GPL?
22:45:54 <ais523> binaries without matching source?
22:46:07 <elliott> hmm, I wonder if silverex is then illegal
22:46:12 <ais523> source is available but it doesn't match the binaries, I'm pretty sure it doesn't count
22:46:17 <elliott> ais523: I think it might be more, custom build system
22:46:25 <ais523> that violates GPL 3, but not GPL 2
22:49:48 <Gregor> I thought xchat on Windows was from the regular source, I don't think it had any separate sources ...
22:50:06 <Gregor> I thought they made people pay for binaries just because they assume that Windozers won't compile.
22:50:23 <Gregor> (A wholly-supported assumption)
22:50:23 <elliott> Gregor: They say it's "difficult" and "not automated" and blah blah blah.
22:50:24 <ais523> Gregor: I once came across a program that was GPL source + "shareware" binary on Windows
22:50:28 <elliott> I assume they at least have a separate build system.
22:50:35 <ais523> as in, they gave a cut-down version that had a 30-day trial, and asked you to pay to keep it for longer
22:50:42 <elliott> Well, depends on the definition of shareware :P
22:50:52 <elliott> Namely it has to mean something it doesn't mean >_>
22:50:53 <ais523> so I just used the source to see how the free-trial code worked, and patched it out
22:51:08 <elliott> ISTR you telling us about this
22:51:13 <elliott> it was a fork of gcc, right/
22:54:24 <zzo38> I don't really care if they make people pay for binaries as long as you can still compile it by yourself (without too much difficulty) and redistribute copies (modified or not) under the same terms, and that someone selling it by itself does not claim it is official distribution unless they: have permission, make substantial modifications, or include it as part of other things.
22:54:40 <zzo38> Or changes the name.
22:58:26 <zzo38> I have some ideas for GPL v4 for what they might make in future: One is to have a copy of the license formatted in Plain TeX for CWEB programs (and other documents). Another is to allow the licensor to specify that their version is official and unofficial one should be marked differently (such as a different package, a different name, or a different scheme for version numbers), as long as such things cannot affect the usage of the software and
22:59:42 <zzo38> And I think I read somewhere they wanted to include the GNU Manifesto with GPL licensed software? I don't think so, but perhaps include a shortened form of it in the preamble of the license.
23:00:02 <ais523> Another is to allow the licensor to specify that their version is official and unofficial one should be marked differently <--- GPLv3 allows reasonable restrictions like that
23:01:22 <zzo38> ais523: I read the license but am not sure about everything completely
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23:02:12 <zzo38> I have forked some GPL software (some version 2 and some version 3), I had made sure to make specified not confused with original software, either by changing the name or using a different version numbering scheme.
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23:02:53 <elliott> Same name, different version numbering scheme: Not confusing at all!
23:03:02 <zzo38> This is sometimes done with MegaZeux, the different forked versions are usually given different version numbering schemes or some title after the program but before the version number.
23:04:18 <zzo38> Obviously it depends what kind of version numbering scheme. It has to be one that cannot be confused with others. For example, I made MegaZeux versions numbered "P1", "P2", "P3" and so on; while some other forks use other notations in the version numbers.
23:05:06 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:05:39 <tswett> So if you fork something, you can mark it as a fork simply by sticking another word after the title?
23:06:01 -!- augur has joined.
23:06:04 <tswett> Like Chromium Indigo, or GHC Indigo, or NetHack Indigo?
23:06:13 <tswett> Though NetHack isn't under the GPL, of course.
23:06:19 <zzo38> As long as you do not allow it to get confused with other things, I guess.
23:06:31 <tswett> I mean, it's under the GPL, but it's the wrong one. :P
23:07:32 <zzo38> I would guess your example works.
23:07:34 -!- invariable has quit (Quit: /dev/io failed).
23:07:51 <zzo38> But I did not write the GPL or the other licenses.
23:07:51 <ais523> it's under a modified version of the Bison license
23:08:29 <elliott> I didn't know Bison predated the GPL
23:08:31 <ais523> elliott: NetHack, that is
23:08:35 <elliott> err, what license was GPL 1 under?
23:08:55 <ais523> elliott: that's the license GPL 1 was under
23:09:10 <ais523> I think it's a little ridiculous that the GPL is under no-derivs, but there you go
23:09:22 <ais523> the FSF doesn't believe in license-freedom for anything but software
23:09:29 <elliott> I once modified the WTFPL to be under the WTFPL
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23:10:12 <tswett> People are informally allowed to modify the GPL as long as they remove certain stuff.
23:10:21 <zzo38> The GPL can be modified to make something that is not the GPL, but only to make a new license for different software, and you have to remove the preamble and postamble, and should not be called the same thing. That is how GPL itself is licensed.
23:11:14 <zzo38> However it is usually discouraged due to causing incompatibilities (you can specify explicit compatibility if you want to, though, I guess).
23:15:15 <zzo38> Other ideas for GPL v4 (if they choose to use these ideas) is something regarding literate programming, if that would help.
23:15:48 <zzo38> If you sell the book it would be a good idea to include a copy of the license in the book as well as a machine-readable copy such as a DVD in the back of the book, or something like that.
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23:28:18 <elliott> gah, there appears to be no gmp irc channel
23:28:48 <zzo38> elliott: Tell them to make one
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23:36:36 <zzo38> The LGPL, AGPL, and FDL, are not available in ODF, and none of them are available in Plain TeX. Also, the LGPL is not available in LaTeX. And they have GNU license logos but not with METAFONT.
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23:37:19 <coppro> They're available in plain text
23:38:18 <coppro> why should they be available in ODF or TeX?
23:38:41 <zzo38> Yes it is, all are available in plain ASCII text. It can also probably be included in ODF and TeX, but it isn't formatted as well as it could be.
23:39:04 <coppro> elliott: I expect you to infer the question I am answering
23:39:15 <elliott> coppro: I expect your mom to infer the question I am answering
23:39:19 <zzo38> coppro: Some people probably use ODF (the main GPL license is available under ODF), and they should be available in Plain TeX too, including for literate programming.
23:39:29 <elliott> coppro: Or in other words, no u
23:39:42 <zzo38> (I do not use ODF myself, but probably some people will)
23:42:22 <elliott> Well, gmp is totally worthless.
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23:48:01 <zzo38> The other thing I would like to have from them, is not only the Plain TeX format of licenses but also the license logos with METAFONT.
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