00:00:29 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
00:00:40 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
00:05:44 -!- Lymia_ has joined.
00:06:21 -!- Lymia has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:13:36 -!- FireFly has joined.
00:15:51 <pikhq> Yup, definitely like Tup.
00:16:52 <elliott> The arrows go up[exclamation mark]
00:17:03 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
00:23:42 <pikhq> Making the monitor auto-build is actually easy, it seems.
00:23:52 <pikhq> tup config autoupdate 1
00:28:53 -!- Lymia_ has changed nick to Lymia.
00:28:55 -!- Lymia has quit (Changing host).
00:28:55 -!- Lymia has joined.
00:29:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: oh god i've been talking to tktech on reddit without realising it
00:29:47 <elliott> MY MAILING LIST POST WILL LOOK SUPER-STUPID NOW
00:33:09 <pikhq> I think I also approve of gittup.
00:34:12 <pikhq> The idea could have great potential if extended further.
00:35:04 <oerjan> elliott: just post a followup "Never mind. I found it out."
00:35:10 <oerjan> and of course, nothing else.
00:36:06 <elliott> well it's submitted for moderation
00:36:14 <Sgeo> What's elliott's mailing list pos?
00:36:16 <elliott> I just pushed a branch called "fuse" to the public repo. It replaces
00:36:16 <elliott> the ldpreload mechanism with a FUSE wrapper filesystem.
00:36:23 <elliott> Sgeo: mailing lists have a posse
00:36:46 <pikhq> elliott: Nice bit about that is that it'll work on every still-maintained UNIX.
00:37:02 <pikhq> ... Yes, including Hurd.
00:37:05 <elliott> Still. strace would probably be faster.
00:46:39 <elliott> pikhq: So autoupdate just makes the monitor do that, right?
00:46:44 <elliott> btw, you can have a tupdefaults file thing in the latest git
00:46:49 <elliott> so I can set that globally
00:47:28 <pikhq> Yeah, autoupdate does that.
00:48:53 <elliott> Still with all the output? LET'S SAY YES
00:52:00 <elliott> how do i get an on-screen keyboard in ubuntu?
00:52:03 <elliott> i need to type my password.
00:52:36 <coppro> look for accessibility
00:53:58 <elliott> just like keyboard accessibility settings
00:58:15 <elliott> i can't install an on screen keyboard
00:58:18 <elliott> because i have to type my password
00:59:33 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch-22_(logic)
01:02:22 <Gregor> OK, I have replicated Tapper's tempo adjustment but on a beat-by-beat basis instead of a note-by-note basis.
01:02:34 <elliott> Is that the name of your thing
01:02:57 <Gregor> elliott: http://www.musanim.com/tapper/
01:02:58 <Vorpal> <elliott> i can't install an on screen keyboard <elliott> because i have to type my password <elliott> to install packages
01:03:03 <Vorpal> elliott, can you open a terminal?
01:03:12 <elliott> and use sudo, just not enter my password
01:03:12 <Vorpal> elliott, you can middle click paste into the sudo prompt
01:03:25 <Gregor> elliott: Tapper is what I already know of that does something similar, but is too involved for multi-track files IMHO.
01:03:32 <Vorpal> elliott, you owe me so much now
01:03:45 <elliott> Vorpal: i'll call you bro TEN TIMES
01:03:53 <elliott> we're running out pretty quickly bro
01:04:02 <Gregor> I may recreate Tapper precisely itself while I'm at it since Tapper has some limitations and isn't F/OSS.
01:04:10 <Gregor> ("precisely" = "but with no UI" of course)
01:04:24 <elliott> Gregor: So do you write a EgoMusicFile?
01:04:29 <elliott> Or is it NOT FUN AND DECLARATIVE
01:04:41 <Gregor> elliott: It's MIDI all the way down
01:04:54 <elliott> Gregor: Uhh, how do you tell it how to mix stuff?
01:04:57 <elliott> With a... declarative MIDI file?
01:05:04 <Vorpal> elliott, idea: external keyboard
01:05:11 <elliott> Vorpal: I have one but it sucks and I like this keyboard.
01:05:21 <Gregor> elliott: "How to mix stuff"?
01:05:27 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean, you prefer a keyboard that you can't write 1-8 on?
01:05:34 <elliott> Gregor: Maybe I am misunderstanding your software :)
01:05:41 <Vorpal> elliott, that other keyboard must *really* suck
01:05:42 <elliott> I can mix two MIDI files or whatever into one with your thing, right?
01:06:02 <elliott> "GOK has enabled Sticky Keys, which it requires."
01:06:08 <Gregor> elliott: No, although it does do that as a boring clerical task.
01:06:18 <elliott> Gregor: What's it actually FOR then :P
01:06:33 <Gregor> elliott: The point of what I'm making is to be able to sit while it plays software and with a control panel add tempo, dynamics and other expressive elements.
01:06:43 <Gregor> While it plays MUSIC >_>
01:06:50 <Vorpal> elliott, to interdynamically mix midi!
01:07:04 <Vorpal> (don't ask me what it means, I have no clue)
01:07:07 <Gregor> elliott: A piece of hardware. In my case a NanoKONTROL, but any MIDI-oriented control device should do.
01:07:16 <Gregor> elliott: Or a MIDI keyboard for that matter.
01:07:20 <elliott> That's not reproducable or fuzzy or ANYTHING
01:07:40 <elliott> Guyz: Onscreen keyboard for Linux, I need one
01:07:44 <Gregor> elliott: It produces a tempo or dynamics file which can be recombined into the original MIDI file even after (certain) editing.
01:08:18 <Vorpal> community/matchbox-keyboard 0.1-3
01:08:18 <Vorpal> An on screen virtual keyboard
01:08:19 <Vorpal> extra/gok 2.30.1-1 (gnome-extra)
01:08:19 <Vorpal> Gnome Onscreen Keyboard
01:08:23 <Vorpal> extra/kdeplasma-addons-applets-plasmaboard 4.6.1-1 (kde kdeplasma-addons)
01:08:23 <Vorpal> A virtual, on-screen keyboard
01:08:23 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:08:31 <Gregor> Vorpal: Those all suck, horribly.
01:08:34 <Gregor> It is amazing how bad they are.
01:08:43 <Vorpal> virtual (graphical) keyboard program for X Window System
01:08:47 <Vorpal> no clue about that one
01:08:50 <Vorpal> might be something else
01:09:05 <Gregor> elliott: It basically doesn't work at all unless you're actually using the WM, and I've never gotten the VM to work properly on anything but a palmtop.
01:09:21 <elliott> How do I even start matchbox-keyboard.
01:09:23 <Vorpal> what about the KDE one?
01:09:26 <elliott> It's not matchbox-keyboard.
01:09:28 <Gregor> Vorpal: I've used xvkbd a lot. It's ... almost tolerable.
01:09:35 <Vorpal> Gregor, okay so that one
01:09:42 <Vorpal> is good or elliott then
01:09:43 <elliott> Gregor: What would you use xvkbd for...
01:10:06 <Gregor> elliott: Had a tablet PC once.
01:10:25 <Vorpal> community/libfakekey 0.1-4
01:10:25 <Vorpal> X virtual keyboard library.
01:10:29 <Vorpal> I'm not sure about that one
01:10:33 <Vorpal> if you want to write your own
01:10:55 <pikhq> Though it revolts me to think about this, I wonder: how sanely could an autoconf/tup build system be made?
01:11:14 <elliott> Vorpal: too ugly to screenshotX ok ok
01:11:17 <Gregor> Anyway, continuing, elliott: My obsession with repeatability isn't about eliminating the human factor, computers simply can't write good music yet, it's about making sure that nothing is lost in the process and everything back to the notation is editable without necessarily having to redo the rest outright.
01:11:17 <elliott> X is now exclamation mark though
01:11:20 <elliott> Vorpal: The best build system evaaar.
01:11:23 <pikhq> Vorpal: Tup is the build system of awesome.
01:11:30 <elliott> It's almost as fast as Mordor.
01:11:36 <elliott> And about five billion times faster than make.
01:11:39 <pikhq> http://gittup.org/tup/
01:11:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left ("Leaving").
01:11:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
01:11:55 <elliott> (Make is O(n) by design, tup is O(log[caret][two] by design).
01:12:08 <elliott> (And tup is even optimal in some (most?) cases.)
01:12:10 <pikhq> I don't think log^2 is what you meant.
01:12:15 <elliott> pikhq: I think that's what was in the paper.
01:12:26 <elliott> Or are you whining vs. (log n)[caret][two]
01:12:38 <pikhq> Oh, wait, it actually is O(log^2 n).
01:12:41 <Vorpal> firefox worked perfectly well, trying to open link from irc client gave me "firefox is not responding"
01:12:48 <elliott> I dunno whether that's double log or log squared :P
01:12:51 <pikhq> elliott: Actually, I thought you were trying to write log_2 n. :P
01:13:04 <elliott> pikhq: all logs are the same in O() :)
01:13:11 <Vorpal> <elliott> (Make is O(n) by design, tup is O(log[caret][two] by design). <-- where the fuck is your _ ?
01:13:25 <Vorpal> and why do you call it carret?
01:13:32 <elliott> caret is the name of caret.
01:13:37 <elliott> tup is O(log[caret][two] n).
01:13:38 <Vorpal> elliott, okay wait a second. log²?
01:13:43 <Vorpal> elliott, where did the n go?
01:13:53 <Vorpal> elliott, stop confusing me like that
01:13:59 <Vorpal> elliott, okay now where the fuck is your ^
01:14:01 <elliott> thing I want to type: xvkbd [and] disown
01:14:04 <Vorpal> for me it is next to enter
01:14:11 <elliott> can someone paste an and plz
01:14:23 <Vorpal> elliott, unintentional!
01:14:38 <Vorpal> elliott, now where is the screenshot
01:14:53 <Vorpal> elliott, don't tell me your print screen key is broken too
01:14:55 <pikhq> Vorpal: Here's the US number row, shifted: ~!@#$%^&*()_+ (from ` to =)
01:15:03 <elliott> it doesn't like being focussed
01:15:08 <Vorpal> pikhq, for me it is !"#¤%&/()=
01:15:29 <Gregor> http://i.imgur.com/00IFp.jpg
01:15:38 <Vorpal> elliott, take whole screen screenshot?
01:15:44 <elliott> Vorpal: you'll see all my goat porn
01:16:04 <Vorpal> pikhq, first key is § / ½ then 1, then after 0 you get +' (last one dead key for é) and shifted those are ?` (last one dead key for è)
01:16:29 <Vorpal> elliott, why not focus it and use printscreen?
01:17:19 <Vorpal> alt-printscreen (stupid, collides with magic sysrq!!) does current windows for me
01:17:37 <Vorpal> elliott, take whole screen. Open gimp. Cut it out
01:17:56 <Vorpal> elliott, link to their website? It presumably has screenshots
01:18:10 <Vorpal> elliott, what was the name now again?
01:18:49 <Vorpal> elliott, what, is the issue? (apart from being .gif) http://homepage3.nifty.com/tsato/xvkbd/xvkbd-normal.gif
01:19:00 <Vorpal> elliott, it fits perfectly next to Mosiac
01:19:34 <Vorpal> elliott, but seriously, I'm not bothered about mixed styles
01:19:51 <Vorpal> as long as each program itself is consistent
01:20:42 <Vorpal> elliott, a is NOWHERE NEAR u. How the heck did that happen?
01:21:00 <elliott> The best laid plans o' mice and men / gang aft agley.
01:21:08 <elliott> It sounds kind of like uglyX Let's use it to mean uglyX
01:21:30 <elliott> The best-laid schemes o' mice an' men / Gang aft agley
01:21:36 <Vorpal> elliott, another way, map the menu key to a modifiers, catch it, use that + the row below the numbers to input the numbers
01:21:44 <Vorpal> elliott, should be "trivial" to write such a daemon
01:21:49 <Vorpal> elliott, okay, some other key then
01:22:01 <elliott> fnctrl alt cmd space cmd alt
01:22:04 <elliott> ok i rarely use cmd but still
01:22:06 <elliott> i could also just send it back for repair...
01:22:23 <Vorpal> elliott, you said that would suck so much. Plus my way is cooler
01:22:40 <Vorpal> elliott, it provides security too. No one would figure out how to enter you password
01:22:49 <elliott> anything sucks more than not having my number keys.
01:22:59 <elliott> X is exclamation mark, Q is asterisk
01:23:38 <Vorpal> elliott, wait a second. Should I read "everything sucks more than not having my number keys" *literally*?
01:23:47 <Vorpal> if so you should be happy
01:24:02 <elliott> TOO COMPLICATED FOR TWO AM
01:24:12 <Vorpal> elliott, for example, pink unicorns would suck more
01:25:12 -!- zzo38 has joined.
01:26:14 <Vorpal> elliott, I think you would have to agree that your sentence actually meant: ∀x ¬not_having_number_keys(x) -> sucks_more_than_not_having_number_keys(x)
01:26:47 <Vorpal> though that could be expressed better
01:27:54 <elliott> guys i need another octothorpe
01:28:02 <Vorpal> Given that sucks_more_than(a,b) means that a sucks more than b, we have:
01:28:03 <Vorpal> ∀x ¬is(x,not_having_number_keys) -> sucks_more_than(x,not_having_number_keys)
01:28:09 <elliott> guys i need another octothorpe
01:28:16 <Vorpal> elliott, don't your on screen keyboard have that?
01:28:26 <elliott> Vorpal: sorry for asking help, bro
01:28:37 <Vorpal> elliott, but seriously, doesn't it have it?
01:28:40 <elliott> i had to ask two people there
01:28:55 <elliott> so i have an octothorpe surplus
01:29:02 <elliott> but i bet i'll lose this one before i need another octothorpe
01:29:19 <Vorpal> elliott, WHAT ABOUT YOUR ON SCREEN KEYBOARD?
01:29:34 <Vorpal> elliott, around you, caps lock mapped to that would be useufl
01:29:44 <elliott> BUT HOW WOULD I TALK LIKE THIS?
01:29:50 <Vorpal> oerjan, possibly ¤? Looks a bit like it
01:30:22 <oerjan> Vorpal: i don't see 16 thorpes in that
01:30:27 <Vorpal> elliott, I meant, caps lock mapped to caps lock would be useful when near you
01:30:40 <Vorpal> oerjan, what is a thrope?
01:30:48 <elliott> thanks fo rthe asterisk Vorpal
01:30:57 <oerjan> whatever there's 8 of in an octothorpe, duh
01:31:11 <Vorpal> elliott, what happened to your on screen keyboard
01:31:13 <oerjan> so obviously ## must have 16
01:31:21 <elliott> Vorpal: i'm just socialising...
01:31:26 <Vorpal> elliott, did it die a horrible death at the hand of the aesthetics?
01:32:24 <elliott> i need an and to start the virtual keyboard again...
01:32:45 <oerjan> just trying to prevent a vicious fight to the death, is all
01:32:53 <Vorpal> elliott, new terminal tab?
01:33:04 <Vorpal> elliott, new terminal tab
01:33:21 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++[>++++<-]+.[+.]
01:33:21 <fungot> <CTCP>.. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ...
01:33:34 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++[>++++<-]<+.[+.]
01:33:34 <fungot> <CTCP>.. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ...
01:33:35 <lambdabot> bf <expr>. Evaluate a brainf*ck expression
01:33:37 <elliott> actually all i need is two to eight, and shifted versions of that
01:33:45 <elliott> newsham: you're not as cool as the news-ham
01:33:47 <news-ham> Drugs lose effectiveness in space: Scientists at Nasa's Johnson Space Centre have shown that the effectiveness of drugs declines far more rapidly in space than on Earth. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/health-13092523
01:34:06 <newsham> elliott: i cant overcome the ambient temperature here
01:34:14 <Vorpal> elliott, here is a shifted row: ½!"#¤%&/()=?
01:34:27 <news-ham> Big Society 'toothless' - Nichols: The leader of the Roman Catholic Church in England and Wales describes David Cameron's Big Society initiative as "toothless". http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-politics-13107287
01:34:32 <elliott> pikhq: Ugh, the monitor daemonises, so autobuild is kinda shit.
01:34:35 <Vorpal> elliott, not at all. It is accurate for me
01:34:43 <olsner> Vorpal: for you but not for elliott
01:34:54 <newsham> newsham < news - ham, solve for e
01:34:56 <Vorpal> olsner, he didn't specify layout
01:35:23 <news-ham> Injured teachers awarded millions: Teachers were awarded millions of pounds in compensation in 2010 for accidents, assaults and injuries, figures released by unions show. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/education-13103243
01:36:13 <news-ham> Croat generals jailed for crimes: Two Croatian military leaders are jailed for war crimes committed in the 1990s, provoking anger in Zagreb where many regard them as war heroes. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-europe-13092438
01:36:31 <Vorpal> elliott, hm in uplink I just saw an "ip" 942.127.295.517
01:36:37 <Vorpal> elliott, that is a strange range
01:37:01 <newsham> > map (`mod` 256) [942,127,295,517]
01:37:25 <oerjan> newsham: i don't think lambdabot's bf has worked for a while. but both fungot and EgoBot have implementations.
01:37:26 <fungot> oerjan: if you're going to be modular, then forcibly load it in gsi, then try to implement your own widgets" thing.
01:37:26 <Vorpal> newsham, uplink is a game, so it doesn't have to make sense
01:37:44 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>.
01:37:51 <oerjan> @bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>.
01:38:08 <lambdabot> unlambda: Parse error at end of file
01:38:15 <elliott> can you foreground any process in a shell?
01:38:32 <Vorpal> elliott, then fg <number>
01:38:47 <Vorpal> elliott, then what do you mean
01:38:52 <elliott> that outputs to this console
01:38:54 <newsham> you cannot (fg any process)
01:38:56 <elliott> i want to reparent it somehow
01:39:03 <elliott> newsham: well, you could if you turned it into a job... somehow.
01:39:08 <newsham> screen is your friend if you have forethought
01:39:09 <Vorpal> elliott, I think you could with gdb
01:39:14 <Vorpal> elliott, doing some call
01:39:18 <elliott> newsham: no, the program itself daemonises
01:39:23 <elliott> there is no flag to stop it
01:40:02 <newsham> gdb, dup2(open("/dev/tty", O_RDWR), 0); dup2(0,1); dup2(1,2); ?
01:40:12 <newsham> the short answer is that shells dont do that
01:40:17 <elliott> i know. but they should :)
01:40:32 <elliott> i also want to be able to kill it with ctrl+c
01:40:42 <elliott> Vorpal: why are you proposing all these things that you know don't do what i want...
01:40:51 <newsham> i dont think you can get it back into your tty's session without some fork()ing going on.
01:41:00 <Vorpal> elliott, write a short C program that kills it on SIGINT
01:41:00 <newsham> i think you could do it by injecting an appropriate code sequence.
01:41:06 <Vorpal> elliott, run it in forground
01:41:22 <newsham> *easier* solution.. gdb it in such a way as to take out th edaemonize stuff
01:41:29 <elliott> newsham: i could just modify the code :)
01:41:47 <newsham> LD_PRELOAD's a good tool in this situation sometimes
01:41:59 <newsham> ie. make fork() a nop, make close() not work on fd = 0,1,2
01:42:14 <Vorpal> newsham, elliott hates dynamic linking as implemented on *nix
01:42:29 <newsham> dynamic linking is a huge problem that fixes a small one
01:42:30 <elliott> tup itself uses LD_PRELOAD
01:42:33 <elliott> so i'm already using it :)
01:42:50 <newsham> plan9 bins are all statically linked.. you're using the wrong OS ;-)
01:43:16 <elliott> i hate it, but with me, that's like love
01:43:25 <elliott> it's not fiery hatred, or unbelievable hatred, or hatred burning with the passion of a million suns
01:58:56 <Gregor> news-ham: What do you think about newsham?
01:58:57 <news-ham> VIDEO: Bear rescued from tree in New Jersey: A black bear has had to be rescued after becoming stuck in a tree in New Jersey. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-us-canada-13102821
01:59:37 <lambdabot> NEWS: 11.99 -0.01 (-0.08%) @ 4/15/2011 4:00pm
01:59:47 <lambdabot> I'm as happy as a clam in pig's broth.
01:59:55 <Gregor> newsham: Fine, but that news is less ham-inspired.
02:00:09 <Gregor> Also: tempotapper, now with with awesome tempo smoothing 8-D
02:00:43 <newsham> if you want more ham check newsham.com
02:01:29 <elliott> newsham: don't make me registers news-ham.com
02:01:29 <news-ham> The story of our rooms: What does the number and type of rooms say about how houses have evolved over the centuries? http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/magazine-12483492
02:01:36 <elliott> which is just like fifteen headlines on a page
02:06:18 -!- news-ham has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
02:07:38 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
02:10:20 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
02:10:29 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
02:11:02 <lambdabot> KO: 68.01 -0.30 (-0.44%) @ 4/15/2011 4:00pm
02:11:26 <lambdabot> show all commands or command for [module]. http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
02:12:37 * Sgeo wonders what it would take to safely write a bot that accepts picolisp
02:12:38 <oerjan> it's not on that website either
02:13:05 <oerjan> newsham: putting commands in lambdabot without documentation is a bannable offense on #haskell, right? RIGHT?
02:13:05 <Sgeo> Well, it's trivial to deny access to (call)
02:13:08 <Sgeo> Actually, no it's not
02:13:31 <oerjan> as well as not updating that @list url
02:13:32 <Sgeo> Sure, I could kill the symbol, but if someone gets at the correct address
02:20:01 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:20:15 -!- sftp has joined.
02:23:31 -!- augur has joined.
02:32:49 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
02:42:44 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
02:55:11 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
02:58:22 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
02:59:24 <zzo38> What I do know is how to deny access to commands in TeX. It is easy, thing like, \let\input=\relax \let\openout=\relax \let\font=\relax and so on. I do not know how to do with most other programming languages, except perhaps with JavaScript, it can be overriding a lot of things you don't want.
03:00:42 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
03:00:50 <zzo38> Also, there is kind of sandbox programs, different one for Windows and for UNIX.
03:06:01 <pikhq> It amuses and disturbs me how web browsers are becoming a complete application environment.
03:06:51 <pikhq> With the recent HTML5 goodies, the main distinction between a native application and an HTML one is that the HTML one has to deal with layers of cruft.
03:07:14 <zzo38> pikhq: Which is I do not use it as such. I prefer command-line program, with native.
03:08:06 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:08:36 -!- sebbu has joined.
03:08:38 <zzo38> For remote program, we have Telnet and SSH.
03:08:46 <pikhq> I mean, seriously, with Javascript you can actually access the host filesystem with ease.
03:08:55 <pikhq> And then start doing GL graphics.
03:09:23 <pikhq> But you have to deal with a language that is a hack on top of a hack on top of a hack to do so.
03:10:01 <pikhq> (lessee... Javascript, HTML and CSS. The Trinity of Kludge)
03:10:59 <zzo38> That is many of the problem. HTML and that stuff has become too complicated. Is, why I still use plain ASCII text file, and DVI printout file, and gopher protocol, which are not becoming too complicated.
03:12:38 <zzo38> To make a game on other computers, it is possible to make a GameBoy file or NES/Famicom file, too.
03:13:50 <zzo38> pikhq: Do you think I am correct or am I wrong?
03:15:39 <pikhq> zzo38: Well, I'd say you go a *bit* too far.
03:15:55 <pikhq> But you are definitely right that some things have gotten positively absurd.
03:16:03 <pikhq> For instance: Unicode > ASCII.
03:17:21 <zzo38> If it is needed Unicode text, it can be used. I do think there is some problems in the design of Unicode, but it is workable whenever it is needed many different languages and stuff, Unicode is a way to do it, and can be used.
03:18:06 <pikhq> Sure, there's a few problems. But Unicode is so *insanely* better than the mess that came before it.
03:18:29 <zzo38> Well, yes, you are probably correct about that.
03:19:27 <zzo38> But still, when I do not need Unicode, I do not use it. The ASCII codes are also valid codes in Unicode, so it is OK, if UTF-8 is used, a ASCII file is also valid UTF-8 file.
03:19:56 <pikhq> Pretty much the only alternatives are to have a painful text format that indicates what encoding a part is in (Emacs has this), or give up (everything else does this).
03:25:06 -!- variable has quit (Quit: Daemon escaped from pentagram).
03:26:18 <zzo38> If you only need one encoding though, there is many ways to work such things, in TeX, or in other programs, such as DOS codepages. Such thing can cause incompatibility if for portability of documents (no problem with portability of programs though), so in HTML you use Unicode. You can also use Unicode in other things and convert to a different encoding on the client, if that would help.
03:27:14 <pikhq> The issue is that one encoding doesn't really suffice in a lot of contexts.
03:27:36 <pikhq> I shall note here that ASCII is insufficient for English text. :)
03:27:37 <Sgeo> When does UTF-8 not suffice?
03:27:47 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
03:27:49 <Sgeo> I mean, besides random access
03:27:51 <pikhq> Sgeo: Sorry, should've specified. "One language-specific encoding"
03:27:53 <olsner> when unicode doesn't suffice, neither does UTF-8
03:29:11 <zzo38> ASCII is sufficient for most English text. Not all. And sometimes Unicode is not sufficient, unless you can use the private use areas for your own codes
03:29:33 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:29:35 <pikhq> zzo38: Indeed, Unicode doesn't contain every single glyph.
03:30:21 <pikhq> ASCII isn't even sufficient for people discussing prices in England!
03:31:42 -!- augur has joined.
03:32:59 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:33:53 <zzo38> In some cases ASCII and Unicode are not problems at all, such as in TeX or MegaZeux. In TeX, you can use the non-slanted italic font \char`\$ for the pounds currency symbol. (This is the "cmu10" font in Computers&Typesetting Volume E.)
03:34:15 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
03:36:00 -!- augur has joined.
03:36:20 -!- elliott has joined.
03:36:42 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
03:37:45 <zzo38> (For example, in TeX you can do: \font\uit=cmu10 \def\pound{{\uit\char`\$}} )
03:37:45 * Sgeo_ wants to hear all the background music that was available for WebTV
03:37:51 <Sgeo_> A bit of nostalgia
03:38:01 <elliott> somehow your ignore has been disabled
03:39:30 -!- variable has joined.
03:41:17 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
03:41:27 <Sgeo_> elliott, did you know that meth is important to Picolisp's OO system?
03:41:43 <elliott> time to remember how to work the ignore command
03:41:53 <elliott> ugh i can't type any of the symbols i need
03:42:45 <Sgeo_> What happened to your keyboard?
03:43:17 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
03:49:46 <elliott> Sgeo_: no one to eight keys working
03:50:18 <Sgeo_> 12345678!@#$%^&* please don't ignore me
03:50:46 <elliott> why would you hand me a noose and step on a chair
03:50:53 <elliott> and then say "please don't kill me"
03:50:56 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:51:55 <zzo38> Does number pad works? Can you use ALT and codes on number pad, too?
03:52:44 <zzo38> elliott: Well, obviously, the reason is so that you reach the light so that it can be replaced!
03:53:23 <zzo38> If the keyboard is broke you had better fix it! Or else to connect a different keyboard.
03:53:33 <elliott> "That's all very well in practice, but how does it work in theory?" --Conor McBride
03:56:23 <elliott> I need a ten Mio/s internet connection.
03:56:24 <quintopia> elliott do you ever drink alcohol?
03:56:28 <elliott> Please respond if your country has such things.
03:56:40 <elliott> Fuck, X has fucked up again.
03:56:49 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:58:16 -!- elliott has joined.
03:58:36 <elliott> then it drops to like six hundred Kio/s
03:58:45 <zzo38> Are you trying to download a movie?
03:59:04 <elliott> quintopia: re alcohol: no, why do you ask
03:59:49 <elliott> yep, down to six hundred Kio/s
03:59:58 <zzo38> Then you would need a fast connection obviously. BitTorrent is a protocol for downloading large file such as movies, can stop and start again. Or you might go to the store and buy the tape.
04:00:13 <elliott> You have stores that actually sell VCRs?
04:00:40 <zzo38> Yes we do have, but not very commonly.
04:02:16 <olsner> you do? so, what decade are you connecting from?
04:03:02 <quintopia> elliott: i was drinking when i was your age because it was cool and yay parties, but you aren't anything like me. nowadays i like beer and cocktails for the taste
04:03:11 <zzo38> The calendar is the same where I live.
04:03:29 <elliott> quintopia: i think i've been to like five parties in my entire life
04:03:50 <elliott> i think it's where everyone gets together and is stupid, communally
04:03:59 * elliott upholding stereotypes since ????
04:04:32 <zzo38> A party is something like that. Not quite. Look in the dictionary for a more precise definition.
04:05:24 <quintopia> what about caffeine? you like hacker drinks?
04:05:43 <elliott> define hacker drinks. that's an insanely insipid-sounding phrase.
04:07:39 <pikhq> I quite like alcohol.
04:07:59 <pikhq> Most people's treatment of it I despise, but alcoholic beverages have a quite enjoyable flavor.
04:08:30 <elliott> no they don't, you just think they do because they make you drunk :)
04:08:38 <pikhq> elliott: I have yet to become drunk.
04:08:45 <elliott> ok: they make you inebriated.
04:08:50 <zzo38> pikhq: Did you make a drunk-test?
04:08:51 <elliott> they put alcohol into your blood stream.
04:09:00 <pikhq> I have yet to even become notably intoxicated.
04:09:15 <elliott> pikhq: you think you're that good at observing yourself?
04:09:25 <elliott> quintopia: i find there is no credible evidence that people like alcoholic drinks because they taste good
04:09:29 <pikhq> elliott: Actually, I'm just aware of the quantities I drink in a sitting along with my mass.
04:09:33 <quintopia> also, by hacker drinks i mean coffee, bawls, and mountain dew
04:09:47 <elliott> additionally, those who are meant to judge the taste of alcoholic drinks and get paid for it, do not do so
04:09:54 <elliott> wine critics have been shown to basically be complete unintentional frauds
04:09:59 <zzo38> I think 2600 sells Club-Mate. But you might also find things in jargon file, for some things about hackers drinks.
04:10:09 <zzo38> Can you make a drunk-test with a video camera?
04:10:18 <quintopia> elliott: well, credible is a relative term. i find that people who don't like alcoholic beverages have never tried any that actually taste good, myself
04:10:56 <elliott> quintopia: let's say beer tastes nice. why is non-alcoholic beer not all that popular?
04:11:08 <quintopia> because it doesn't taste like beer
04:11:11 <pikhq> elliott: I sum up wine this way: there's a huge difference between a $1 bottle of wine and a $10. There's not a huge difference between a $10 and a $100 bottle of wine.
04:11:22 <elliott> quintopia: so, beer only tastes like beer if it has alcohol in it?
04:11:34 <quintopia> i have yet to find a non-alcoholic ale
04:11:46 <quintopia> those non-alcoholic beers are typically shitty lagers
04:12:00 <elliott> plenty of people drink shitty lagers.
04:12:08 <quintopia> so i'm gonna go with "yes" although it doesn't matter the actual amount of alcohol
04:12:13 <pikhq> Shitty lagers you don't drink for the taste. :P
04:12:24 <elliott> alcoholic drinks you don't drink for the taste
04:12:25 <quintopia> maybe someday someone will make a non-alcoholic beer that tastes good but i'm not holding my breath
04:12:32 <elliott> note: i am not condemning alcohol consumption in any way
04:12:49 <pikhq> Also, are you aware that it's only recently that low-alcoholic beers have not been popular, right?
04:12:57 <quintopia> people who drink shitty lagers drink them because they have alcohol in hem
04:12:58 <elliott> pikhq: low-alcohol is not non-alcoholic
04:13:01 <zzo38> O, I don't drink alcoholic.
04:13:09 <elliott> I am merely saying that the evidence I see points to alcoholic beverages being popular in large part because they are alcoholic.
04:13:25 <elliott> I believe that they, yes, taste good to people, but this is their brain tricking them because _it associates them with happy feelings_.
04:13:35 <pikhq> 1-2% ABV is not going to anything at all.
04:13:37 <elliott> If you don't think your brain is that good at deluding you... lol[exclamation mark]
04:13:44 <elliott> pikhq: not anything externally noticeable
04:13:47 <quintopia> people who drink shitty lager drink them because they are alcoholic. this much i will agree with you
04:14:07 <pikhq> elliott: And 0.5% ABV is "non-alcoholic".
04:14:25 <pikhq> (i.e. can be sold to children legally in the US)
04:14:29 <elliott> pikhq: I would also wager that such-low-alcohol-content beers taste very different from popular beers.
04:14:44 <elliott> Less alcohol, better it has to taste to be popular.
04:14:55 <elliott> Let me clarify my statement.
04:15:06 <quintopia> i guess i've gotten an answer to my question
04:15:23 <elliott> Most drinks with medium-to-high or at least high alcoholic content are drunk not because they taste good, but because they are alcoholic. This is unbeknownst to the drinkers.
04:15:27 <quintopia> someone let me know if they invent a non-alcoholic Ramos Gin Fizz
04:15:51 <elliott> I'm not counting mixed drinks here, btw.
04:16:24 <quintopia> so you're basically rejecting all the delicious cocktails in the world? how is that reasonable?
04:17:03 <elliott> I'm saying that it's perfectly plausible cocktails are drunk because they taste nice.
04:17:15 <elliott> But I doubt this of beers and wines for various reasons.
04:17:21 <pikhq> But cocktails are much higher in alcohol.
04:17:28 <elliott> Well, that they taste nice independent of their having alcohol.
04:17:38 <elliott> pikhq: Yes, but they're generally mixed _to taste nice_.
04:17:39 <pikhq> Which is why they are consumed in small quantities.
04:17:45 <quintopia> elliott: i /like/ the taste of /alcohol itself/. sometimes i sniff hand sanitizer because i like the /smell/ of alcohol. i don't get drunk from sniffing hand sanitizer. how does this fit into your worldview?
04:18:03 <elliott> quintopia: Some chemicals smell nice. Hand sanitiser definitely does.
04:18:08 <elliott> Beer and wine don't smell like hand sanitiser.
04:18:16 <elliott> Your statement is irrelevant.
04:18:18 * pikhq fucking sips shots.
04:18:26 <elliott> bro i drink shots from the bottleX
04:18:54 <quintopia> so your argument is simply "beer and wine don't taste good. people who like them like them because they get drunk"?
04:19:14 <elliott> quintopia: No, they like them because their brain says good things to them when they drink them.
04:19:20 <elliott> This manifests as a perception of good taste, etc.
04:19:27 <quintopia> okay, what about hard liquor? would you say agavero doesn't taste good?
04:19:27 <elliott> This is because the brain knows they do nice things, i.e. alcohol.
04:19:30 <zzo38> You should fix your computer. It cannot work very good if the exclamation mark is broken, and the others are also broke!
04:19:51 <elliott> quintopia: I haven't tasted it, so I can't possibly comment. I am going only by the evidence I have observed (and some others arguing the same or similar).
04:20:37 <quintopia> i'm going to have to conclude that you can't believe unmixed alcoholic beverages can taste good just because you haven't had any that taste good
04:20:58 <elliott> It's impossible to make conclusions from evidenceX
04:21:01 <elliott> You need PERSONAL EXPERIENCEX
04:21:15 <elliott> How can you say God isn't Real if you've never Accepted Him into your heart and Felt him???
04:21:21 <pikhq> Actually, it's just that you are ignoring some evidence.
04:21:22 <Sgeo_> elliott, what is your evidence?
04:21:32 <elliott> Sgeo_: see: everything [caret]
04:21:32 <quintopia> but you're right about one thing: most popular beers and wines SUCK BALLS
04:21:36 <pikhq> Namely, the actual flavor of things.
04:21:52 <elliott> pikhq: _I am arguing that your perception of the flavour of those things is innately biased and flawed_.
04:22:03 <elliott> Again: _I am not saying that drinking alcohol is bad, wrong, not pleasurable, anything._
04:22:19 <elliott> I'm saying that the taste of these beverages COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT FROM THEIR BEING PART OF AN ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGE is not, in itself, good.
04:22:27 <elliott> Or, not even not good: just not the reason they are consumed.
04:22:42 <Sgeo_> Does such a concept exist "taste independent of the alcohol"?
04:22:43 <pikhq> elliott: So, you are arguing that the qualia I am experiencing is distinct from the "real" flavor.
04:22:53 <quintopia> and i counter that with: i would drink them even if they did not contain alcohol.
04:23:22 <zzo38> quintopia: Can you try?
04:23:28 <elliott> Sgeo_: Consider the same taste in a non-alcoholic beverage.
04:23:29 <pikhq> elliott: BTW, I should here remind you that root beer is an actual beer. And it is very effing popular. :)
04:23:30 <quintopia> even if the alcohol did not have these effects
04:23:34 <elliott> Or just consider people's _first taste_ of it.
04:23:38 <elliott> pikhq: Root beer tastes nothing like beer :P
04:23:56 <Sgeo_> Wait, are you saying I've drunk beer before???
04:23:58 <elliott> quintopia: You might now because you've made the association. I don't think you would if you had never had them before.
04:24:04 <pikhq> elliott: Well, no, it's brewed from different substances.
04:24:07 <elliott> Sgeo_: ?????????????????????????????? No.
04:24:24 <elliott> quintopia: (Unless you have really _weird_ tastes.)
04:24:42 * pikhq liked his very first taste of beer.
04:24:45 <quintopia> elliott: well that goes without saying. but then you're argument loses all credibility if you say "if you had not acquired the taste you wouldn't like it"
04:25:29 <elliott> pikhq: Either it was one of the (less popular because the real taste doesn't matter) beverages that actually taste nice, you have really weird tastes, or your brain is so good at deducing things that it realised it was going to get some alcohol and decided to intervene.
04:25:30 <quintopia> lots of tastes require some acquiring, but it doesn't mean that the particular effects of alcohol are needed to acquire them
04:25:42 <elliott> quintopia: I am saying that the taste would be not be acquired if not for the alcohol.
04:25:53 <pikhq> elliott: I have yet to have all-American pisswater. :P
04:26:33 <quintopia> i bet within a few years, i'll like the taste of tomato
04:26:54 <elliott> Go drink some piss, you'll get acquired to it.
04:26:58 <pikhq> elliott: And I probably do have somewhat weird tastes.
04:26:59 <elliott> Especially if you add some alcohol.
04:27:39 <zzo38> Do you like to taste your own arm?
04:27:49 <elliott> hehehehehhehe, from a quick google:
04:27:53 <quintopia> i think you can acquire any taste, with or without alcohol, if you taste it enough
04:27:54 <elliott> 1. Since alcohol is flavourless, why is it that all the most interesting-tasting drinks have alcohol in them?"
04:28:06 <pikhq> Actually, given that I sip beverages that most people slam down to avoid the taste of, I almost certainly have weird tastes.
04:28:15 <quintopia> the brain is not so simple that it requires the endorphin-pleasure feedback loop to accept something new
04:28:34 <elliott> quintopia: no, but it sure helps.
04:28:36 <elliott> besides, alcohol is more complex than that.
04:28:37 <pikhq> elliott: Alcohol isn't even vaguely flavorless. It's a pretty dang strong flavor, in fact.
04:28:42 <elliott> unless you think intoxication is just happiness
04:28:50 <elliott> pikhq: yeah yeah that's not the point
04:28:55 <pikhq> Besides, alcohol doesn't cause the release of endorphins.
04:28:57 <elliott> they taste so interesting /because/ of the alcohol.
04:29:10 <elliott> Alcohol affects the reward centres of the brain, thereby tricking you into believing that an otherwise ordinary drink “tastes interesting”. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00ndtxm"
04:30:10 <quintopia> what if we, for the sake of argument, assume that the pleasure derived from the taste of alcohol is backed by experience with the effects of alcohol
04:30:42 <elliott> ...You think this is me justifying why I don't drink alcohol?
04:31:27 <elliott> I haven't tried alcohol because I feel no particular need to. I am pretty sure there are more interesting drugs.
04:31:52 <pikhq> quintopia: He seems to be arguing that the qualia of "good taste" is entirely distinct from the "real" taste of an alcoholic beverage. Which begets the question, how can there be a "real" taste distinct from the experienced qualia, anyways?
04:32:15 <elliott> pikhq: Say you had some medicine that negates all of alcohol's effects on you.
04:32:21 <elliott> Say you started drinking beer for the first time, and continued.
04:32:24 <zzo38> pikhq: Try making such an experiment.
04:32:27 <elliott> It would not taste nearly as nice as it does for you in reality.
04:32:27 <quintopia> pikhq: PRETTY MUCH but i guess i don't care anymore :)
04:32:52 <elliott> quintopia: re: interesting -- Alcohol makes people outwardly boring, and inwardly and outwardly rather thick.
04:33:05 <quintopia> elliott: what drug is more interesting?
04:33:05 <elliott> Neither are too appealing to me; I don't find the relaxing aspect appealing enough in comparison.
04:33:10 <pikhq> elliott: You're talking to a guy who has consumed straight coffee beans and enjoyed it. :P
04:33:27 <quintopia> pikhq: that's not so weird. roasted coffee beans are delicious
04:33:28 <elliott> quintopia: Not alcohol? I wasn't thinking of anything in particular, I'm just saying that as drugs go, alcohol is a pretty boring one.
04:33:50 <quintopia> elliott: okay, so which ones do you plan to try due to them being more interesting?
04:34:06 <zzo38> Make up your own drugs! See what goes wrong with it (if any)!
04:34:15 <elliott> I have no short-term or medium-term plans to try out any drugs. I have no long-term plans at all for anything.
04:34:22 <quintopia> zzo38: good idea. you go first and get back o us
04:34:32 <pikhq> Meanwhile: mmm, rum.
04:34:38 <zzo38> How can I write the report if I am dead?
04:34:56 <quintopia> zzo38: if you feel like you're gonna die, start writing really fast
04:35:05 <zzo38> elliott: You should.
04:35:12 <elliott> type zero to nine and press enter
04:35:29 <quintopia> elliott: so do you find no drugs interesting enough to experiment with?
04:35:50 <pikhq> quintopia: Well, he clearly does consume caffeine.
04:35:52 <elliott> quintopia: Nope. I merely have no short-term or medium-term plans to try out any drugs.
04:35:58 <elliott> pikhq: Yesyesyes and food is a drug too
04:35:58 <pikhq> He is an Englishman, after all.
04:35:59 <zzo38> It is not a very good substitute for fixing your computer.
04:36:10 <elliott> quintopia: One might note that I make exceedingly few plans in general.
04:36:34 <pikhq> elliott: A depressant in the case of English food.
04:36:46 <quintopia> elliott: let's say someone just hands you the stuff and you haven't got anything else going on. would you do it?
04:36:57 <elliott> quintopia: Define "the stuff".
04:37:06 <elliott> Or cocaine. Or heroin. etc. :P
04:37:12 <pikhq> Though there's a lot of bad, depressing food out of the US, too.
04:37:21 <elliott> quintopia: This is the worst game of twenty questions ever.
04:37:33 <pikhq> And then there's a lot of stuff that's just likely to kill you.
04:37:39 <pikhq> (looking at *you*, South)
04:37:51 <quintopia> elliott: is the drug animal, vegetable or mineral?
04:38:13 <elliott> quintopia: But seriously though, I don't really have a list of "drugs I will try right now", it's more of a black-box predicate.
04:38:14 <pikhq> quintopia: I am the very model of a modern major general.
04:38:22 <elliott> pikhq: wrt the south: I once made iced tea without actually brewing the tea
04:38:33 <elliott> that is, usa-style iced tea
04:38:36 <pikhq> elliott: What, like sun tea?
04:38:51 <elliott> it was actually in a fridge.
04:39:00 <elliott> step one fill jug with water
04:39:06 <elliott> step three MUSH TEABAGS IN
04:39:09 <elliott> step four leave the tea bags in
04:39:13 <elliott> step four fridge for like two hours
04:39:24 <pikhq> elliott: Fail. To do it "right" you let it sit in the sun for an hour and then ice it.
04:39:27 <elliott> step three pour out, ice, put sugar-rotting materials in if you want
04:39:28 <quintopia> okay that's not sweet tea but it sounds good too
04:39:40 <elliott> pikhq: no trust me it was delicious
04:39:41 <zzo38> I have not yet should try things with drugs at this time, I have many other things to work on and will not be able to complete it if I am dead. When I am finish and I am sure I have nothing else to work on, ever, then others can make the decision to test death drugs with me or to eat me or talk to me in a language I do not know or whatever. But should not too pain??
04:39:46 <elliott> it got a really tea-like flavour
04:39:53 <elliott> but without the sort of bitterness you get from brewed tea
04:40:02 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, so not much fail.
04:40:03 <elliott> i should make some more of that.
04:40:14 <elliott> zzo38: You realise there are drugs that don't kill you.
04:40:24 <quintopia> zzo38: say that again in english please
04:40:40 <zzo38> elliott: But still I don't want to, though. At least not now.
04:40:43 <elliott> quintopia: sorry, only zzothree-eightglish is available
04:41:38 <pikhq> zzo38: Okay, so you won't try meth.
04:42:21 <quintopia> the proper way to make sweet tea is to start with simple syrup and then add tea :D
04:42:23 <pikhq> (you know it's fucking scary if it causes *anhedonia*)
04:42:52 <elliott> quintopia: i don't think black boxes like being brute forced, but i've got two results: i would probably try cannabis if someone offered it. i would not try lsd if someone just gave me some and said "heyyy, take this!"
04:42:54 <quintopia> but i think most people don't understand southern food
04:43:01 <elliott> i understand southern food
04:43:09 <elliott> and it doesn't have shitloads of sugar in it
04:43:15 <pikhq> quintopia: Oh, southern food is easy to understand the appeal of.
04:43:21 <pikhq> quintopia: It is fucking delicious.
04:43:26 <zzo38> I don't care what it causes or not, I do not try at this time, please.
04:43:29 <quintopia> elliott: that's not true. collard greens and mustard greens with pepper sauce are acceptable
04:43:41 <elliott> quintopia: can we call that "lesser southern food"?
04:43:42 <quintopia> also, i knew a guy in spain who thought all porridges should be sweet
04:43:50 <quintopia> therefore he didn't understand salty grits
04:43:52 <pikhq> elliott: No, it's pretty quintessentially southern.
04:44:06 <elliott> yeah i do not get savoury porridge?
04:44:11 <elliott> there is one dish called porridge in the uk
04:44:25 <elliott> it is porridge oats, with milk, salt, and usually sugar
04:44:33 <elliott> served as hot as you can make it
04:44:37 <elliott> why is other porridge necessary
04:44:38 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, so that's what the UK "porridge" is.
04:44:40 <elliott> that is pretty much perfect porridge
04:44:47 <quintopia> like i said. most non-southerners don't get southern food ;D
04:44:57 <elliott> pikhq: what do you USians EAT for breakfast in winter??
04:45:00 <elliott> pancakes aren't THAT warming
04:45:08 -!- variable has quit (Quit: Daemon escaped from pentagram).
04:45:08 <pikhq> elliott: I have no idea what that's called in the US, except "oatmeal with milk".
04:45:20 <quintopia> i always make my oatmeal with milk....
04:45:27 <elliott> porridge looks kinda gross first time, but trust me it's absolutely delicious
04:45:37 <pikhq> elliott: USians eat that.
04:45:49 <copumpkin> it looks like someone ate it once, then threw it up
04:45:53 -!- variable has joined.
04:45:55 <elliott> pikhq: IF IT'S NOT QUAKER OATS IT IS NOT REAL PORRIDGE
04:45:55 <copumpkin> in fact, I don't think you'd be able to tell if someone did
04:46:06 <elliott> copumpkin: choke on a dick, anti-porridge loser
04:46:09 <elliott> wait aren't you even from the UK
04:46:13 <elliott> how can you express such sentiment
04:46:18 <elliott> well ok i suppose it is _factually_ true
04:46:25 <pikhq> elliott: "Oatmeal" refers to just steel-cut oats in the US.
04:46:41 <quintopia> rolled oats are also used in oatmeal
04:46:44 <elliott> why do you just fail to alt tab
04:46:45 <copumpkin> I'm not a very authentic englishman though
04:47:28 <pikhq> elliott: Quaker Oats is, indeed, the brand of choice.
04:47:42 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
04:48:13 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined.
04:49:13 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
04:50:02 <pikhq> oerjan: Think you could /invite elliott #esoteric
04:50:29 <pikhq> He seems to be having trouble copy-pasting splat.
04:51:20 <zzo38> elliott is connected.
04:51:34 <pikhq> Yes, but he can't /join.
04:51:40 <zzo38> But they should fix their computer before connecting!
04:52:02 <zzo38> Don't use INVITE, use KILL so that they can get a chance to fix their computer.
04:52:05 <quintopia> and its all "you're not channel operator"
04:52:12 <pikhq> Need to be an op. Hence asking oerjan.
04:52:49 <pikhq> He shuts his computer off when he goes to bed.
04:53:21 <zzo38> You can use CS ACCESS #esoteric LIST for list of who is the access list for channel operator of ChanServ-based channels. Yes, oerjan is on there, too.
04:54:57 <Gregor> pikhq: Why am I being ?d?
04:55:12 <pikhq> Gregor: /invite elliott #esoteric
04:55:38 <pikhq> ... Wait, did you get put on the op list?
04:55:42 <pikhq> Because I'm not an op.
04:55:48 <zzo38> [Hay, I invented a F.O.S.S. program language called #Hitler, that's too bad!] [PS. This is not a true statement I just made it up to show you]
04:55:52 <oerjan> ...why can't he copy-paste #?
04:55:56 <pikhq> I thought you had been, but maybe that's just my mind going "He damned well should be".
04:56:40 <monqy> does that mean you are some op
04:56:45 <pikhq> Welp, elliott is screwed. He should consider getting a new whatever-is-borken.
04:57:03 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
04:57:03 <zzo38> Does not require typing 12345678!@#$%^&*
04:57:15 <zzo38> But still it ought to be he fixed the compute first before trying again, please !!!
04:57:25 -!- elliott has joined.
04:57:34 <elliott> i gotta know how this came to be
04:57:34 <pikhq> Congrats on whatever you did working.
04:57:38 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
04:58:02 <oerjan> elliott: someone said you couldn't copy/paste #?
04:58:14 <elliott> like rain on your wedding day
04:58:28 <zzo38> Now your computer is broken please fixed it.
04:59:06 <elliott> quintopia: um something something spoons knife ironic don't you think
04:59:10 <zzo38> elliott: It doesn't matter, fix it anyways, please.
04:59:13 -!- Lymia has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
04:59:13 <oerjan> ^def nr ul (|1234567890+\!"#¤%&/()=?`)S
04:59:20 <elliott> oerjan: that is not the proper shifting
04:59:32 -!- Lymia has joined.
04:59:32 <elliott> exclamation mark at gbp-sign dollar percent caret and asterisk
04:59:33 <oerjan> it's what my keyboard does
04:59:50 <elliott> to go to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_food
04:59:57 <elliott> i cannot copy-paste you see
05:00:03 <zzo38> `1234567890-=\~!@#$%^&*()_+|
05:00:07 <elliott> Every day is Family Day When Real Men Cook.
05:00:23 <elliott> so anyway i am about to god to sleep
05:00:36 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
05:00:42 <elliott> btw someone remind me to check the TODO file tomorrow
05:00:47 <zzo38> If you cannot fix it yourself, go to the store tell them to fixed for you.
05:00:50 <elliott> oerjan: you want caret-show
05:00:58 <elliott> and there is no apple store anywhere near
05:01:04 <pikhq> oerjan: Your keyboard is weird and Norwegian.
05:01:05 <elliott> or indeed computer store competent in any capacity
05:01:07 <zzo38> Then sleep, and fix it tomorrow instead.
05:01:13 <elliott> zzo38: that is my intention.
05:01:22 <pikhq> oerjan: 1234567890!@#$%^&*()
05:01:30 <pikhq> oerjan: That's how AMERICA intended it.
05:01:52 <elliott> YOU FORGOT THE POUND SYMBOL
05:01:56 <elliott> IN PALCE OF THE OCTOTHORPE
05:02:05 <elliott> FUN FACT, COTOTHORPE IS SOMETIME CALLED POUND SYMBOL IN AMERICA
05:02:09 <elliott> IS NOT THE REAL POUND SYMBOL THAT IS THERE
05:02:10 <zzo38> Alternately design the keyboard with " instead of @ at SHIFT+2 if you want the ASCII order following more closely.
05:02:31 <elliott> because " is out of reach and ascii is irrelevant
05:03:08 <pikhq> " is right next to enter here.
05:03:22 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:03:23 <pikhq> Well, ' is the lowercase.
05:03:40 <pikhq> Right, the UK keyboard has tiny-enter syndrome.
05:04:16 -!- lament has joined.
05:05:13 <oerjan> ^def nr (`1234567890-=~!@#$%^&*()_+)S
05:05:13 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
05:05:20 <oerjan> ^def nr ul (`1234567890-=~!@#$%^&*()_+)S
05:07:19 * oerjan remembered his change keyboard language shortcut
05:07:20 <zzo38> I also think there is a few problem with ASCII order, but it is still the one we have to use. I did make up a new experimental order or character codes, where 'A' is immediately after '9' and the codes for ']'==('['|0x10) the same to ')' and '}' as well. But the <=> is still in the order <=> like it is in ASCII.
05:07:36 <oerjan> which i know mainly because i accidentally keep pressing it sometimes
05:08:24 <oerjan> just one problem, ^ is in there :D
05:08:27 <zzo38> Is it a good idea to you, if the codes were designed like this, instead of how it actually is?
05:08:35 <pikhq> zzo38: We could use EBCDIC order.
05:08:47 <oerjan> in fact _all_ our bot prefixes are in there
05:08:50 <zzo38> No, EBCDIC order is even more problem than ASCII
05:09:14 <pikhq> I wasn't saying it was a good idea. Just that we're not stuck with ASCII. :P
05:09:18 <oerjan> well not all lambdabot's prefixes
05:09:35 <quintopia> damnit. my alliance in emross war is now in a heated religion debate.
05:09:44 <quintopia> fuck religion. always causing arguments
05:10:26 <zzo38> pikhq: OK, I can understand you, but still, do you think my order would be considered a better idea?
05:11:26 <zzo38> Also my idea has the other feature, like ASCII, which is one of the other good feature of ASCII, that you can do bitwise XOR one bit to switch uppercase/lowercase.
05:17:06 <quintopia> 65=A, 97=a so...changing the 5th bit is enough
05:17:26 <quintopia> what is your idea that preserves that
05:17:55 <quintopia> unicode has ascii as a subset yes?
05:18:02 <zzo38> It is a new experimental encoding I made up. The letters are still in alphabetical order and it still preserves that.
05:18:22 <zzo38> And, yes, the ASCII codes are same as Unicode codes 0 to 127.
05:22:48 <zzo38> A few things. One is that 'A' comes immediately after '9' ('9'+1=='A'). Another is the way of pairing [](){} delimiters. There is also the way of how to shorten it for smaller codes, 7-bits, 6-bits, 5-bits, etc, will work without as much complication as you would shorten codes of other encodings.
05:22:49 <pikhq> quintopia: There's no requirement that any UTF actually map sanely, though.
05:22:53 <Gregor> Unlike Tapper, my notetapper generates a MIDI file that's still notationable 8-D
05:23:07 <pikhq> quintopia: For instance, UTF-EBCDIC.
05:23:24 <zzo38> Also, some things that ASCII omits are included, such as British pound money.
05:23:25 <pikhq> Gregor: But will it blend?
05:23:46 <Gregor> pikhq: Since it does not have physical manifestation, I'm gonna go with "no"
05:23:50 <quintopia> what kind of soda have you got for us this week
05:24:54 <Gregor> I'm actually getting decently close to Moxie.
05:25:00 <Gregor> Still doesn't have the right bitter bite though.
05:30:25 <pikhq> Doesn't hops also have a bit of a spiciness to it, though?
05:46:56 -!- augur has joined.
05:51:24 <newsham> oerjan: what commands arent documented?
05:52:38 <fungot> quintopia: it's non-linear, so you are saying that: not all fsa qualify as that :) but if it's something like a multiple choice question.
06:15:36 <Sgeo_> I think I'm going to take a Tylenol
06:16:20 <Sgeo_> (rename 'tylenol 'cough-syrup)
06:17:16 -!- pikhq has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
06:24:19 <oerjan> newsham: @tick for example?
06:25:24 <oerjan> i'm sure there were others last i tried but that may be a long time ago
06:25:50 <oerjan> quintopia: for lambdabot
06:26:18 <lambdabot> run <expr>. You have Haskell, 3 seconds and no IO. Go nuts!
06:26:24 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
06:26:29 <lambdabot> bf <expr>. Evaluate a brainf*ck expression
06:26:42 <oerjan> not that i can recall what they were
06:27:09 <zzo38> Is there program converting other font formats into TFM and GF formats?
06:35:11 <oerjan> > is an abbreviation for @run
06:36:04 <zzo38> I found some list that says "Select Language" and it translate by Google Translate, but there are no choices in the list!!
06:36:05 <oerjan> :t for @type and :k for @kind. and ? is equivalent to @. iirc.
06:36:40 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
06:36:46 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
06:36:50 <lambdabot> kind <type>. Return the kind of a type
06:36:55 <lambdabot> type <expr>. Return the type of a value
06:37:00 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
06:37:14 <oerjan> none of which abbreviations is documented eithe
06:40:33 <Ilari> Hah, someone did video about testing NAT^30.
06:43:24 <Ilari> E.g. Dropped connection speed to about one fourth.
06:50:14 <quintopia> you must be a slow taker of tylenol
06:51:00 <Sgeo_> I was wavering on whether or not to take it
07:11:48 -!- Sgeo_ has left ("Leaving").
08:15:31 <oerjan> mind blown http://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/grpv6/til_why_zippers_have_ykk_on_them_the_ykk_stands/
08:17:13 <quintopia> i should visit that factory sometime
08:19:04 <oerjan> i just checked 4 zippers and they all were YKK
08:19:40 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
08:20:28 <quintopia> all the clothing zippers i knows of are
08:20:42 <quintopia> but luggage zippers are rarely ykk
08:22:23 <oerjan> ah, right, i just checked two bags and they weren't
08:38:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
08:41:46 -!- augur has joined.
08:41:47 -!- lament has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
09:06:49 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors--and miss.).
09:20:19 -!- cheater00 has joined.
09:21:38 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
09:22:15 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
09:33:33 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
09:36:55 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
09:40:57 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
09:42:58 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
09:45:27 -!- sebbu has joined.
09:45:27 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
09:45:27 -!- sebbu has joined.
09:46:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Ooh, you can get into the Reynholm Industries staff intranet.
09:50:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I never heard of that company, what is it?
09:51:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh okay.
09:51:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so a publicity stunt then?
09:53:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, Did they set up a fake router connected to the internet to which they connected multiple computers or did they do something less realistic?
09:54:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, by the way, Cosmos is great
09:54:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the science is of course a bit outdated in some areas
09:54:34 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
10:15:44 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
10:20:07 -!- sebbu has joined.
10:20:07 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
10:20:07 -!- sebbu has joined.
10:28:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh my god all of the IT Crowd's latest season is on YouTube.
10:35:12 -!- sftp_ has joined.
10:35:22 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
10:41:59 -!- cheater- has joined.
10:44:30 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
10:47:08 <Vorpal> elliott: figured out the screwiness. in global.h #define TESTGAME was on
10:47:22 <Vorpal> elliott: I'm currently recompiling without it
10:52:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, pings work better when the person at whom they are directed is online.
10:53:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, he log reads
11:02:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yay I now have a x86-64 uplink 1.31 that works properly!
11:03:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ah, but did you pay for the developer cd?
11:04:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway it is 37 MB. Probably because of debug symbols.
11:04:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, this is after all C++
11:05:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you need the right data files. That adds another 20 MB or so
11:05:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you need the exact right version of the data files, or it won't work
11:06:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, this version still has the debug mode with cheat menu in it (which worked on old release versions of uplink btw)
11:07:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Does it still have that slightly game-breaking bank hack, BtW?
11:07:46 <Phantom_Hoover> The one where you can get a million credits or so before the main plot even starts.
11:11:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I don't know how that one works
11:12:17 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
11:25:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, you concentrate your software purchases on bank security, which, whilst by no means trivial, is still breakable with low-level hardware and software.
11:26:17 <Phantom_Hoover> You hack into a bank, find an account with a balance in the hundred thousand to million range, transfer funds, cover tracks.
11:26:35 <Phantom_Hoover> You now have more money than you can conceivably spend over the course of the normal game.
11:27:11 <Phantom_Hoover> You can buy the best computer, fit it out entirely, destroy it if tracked and start from scratch again *several times*.
11:28:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, did they fix it later on?
11:29:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, they might have hardened the bank's security or made the tools needed to crack it more expensive.
11:35:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, this one is somewhat buggy I just found. Or at least missing something 1.54 had which I found very useful
11:35:48 <Vorpal> which was to click on the world map to remove a node midway through
11:36:05 <Vorpal> extremely annoying when you want to save a long prepared route
11:36:12 <Vorpal> and then just modify it for your temporary needs
11:36:20 <Vorpal> I'm going to check if I can implement that
11:37:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I mean if I have A-B-C-D-E-F and save it, as a prepared long jump route, I could in 1.54 click load, then if I wanted to access D I could click it once, to remove it from the route, then click it again to add it to the end
11:37:15 <Vorpal> I can't do that in this version
11:37:19 <Vorpal> which I find very annoying
11:38:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, plus it doesn't colourise nodes. You can't select "colour this node" in your main screen list. And it doesn't add colour to the target nodes of current missions.
11:38:41 <Vorpal> and there is no "filter" on the main screen list
11:38:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, 1.54 at least colour your target system green
11:39:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Check if it still flashes Revelation-infected systems red.
11:39:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I haven't got that far yet. So I can't tell.
11:39:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, mmm there is a button for it in the built in development build cheat thingy. Anyway going to add the route editing first.
11:40:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, because the code is not there
11:40:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I meant, for route editing
11:40:36 <Vorpal> it is not there, there is "remove last" and "add to end"
11:40:45 <Vorpal> oh god, they use their own LList, which seems like std::list or whatever... but different
11:41:11 <Vorpal> lets see how painful this thing will be...
11:41:33 <Vorpal> T GetData ( int index );// slow unless sequential
11:41:33 <Vorpal> void RemoveData ( int index );// slow
11:42:00 <Vorpal> a linked list, but keeps a pointer to last accessed index. I think.
11:42:29 <Vorpal> also I'm confused how this works at all. templates but the code in a .cpp?
11:47:22 <olsner> Vorpal: what are you looking at?
11:48:38 <olsner> linked lists that even *have* functions on indices are just Wrong
11:50:11 <olsner> because linked lists don't do that efficiently :)
11:53:58 <Vorpal> <olsner> Vorpal: what are you looking at? <-- uplink source code
11:54:21 <Vorpal> olsner, C++ from around 2000
11:54:36 <olsner> then I think you should use a data structure that does that, like an array or a dictionary...
11:54:53 <olsner> or rather, you should write your code to require the "indexed access" interface - and a linked list would be a poor way to implement that interface
11:55:10 <Vorpal> olsner, I'm not going to rewrite the game. I'm just fixing small things.
11:55:26 <Vorpal> olsner, I'd rewrite the game the day you rewrite mosaic.
11:55:33 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, if a linked list is best for other reasons, but you need the nth element occasionally?
11:56:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it actually does sequential access using nth + caching last position. The interface is somewhat sucky yes, but I'm not sure C++ iterator objects is a better solution!
11:56:47 <Vorpal> okay, time to see if this works
11:57:28 <Vorpal> strange that I didn't need to edit any GUI code for this
11:58:01 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: meh, ok then :P it might be useful, but I wouldn't mind if that was not part of the data structure but rather a utility function for indexing things you can only iterate
12:01:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, considering that some other parts of the code are rather spaghetti like, I didn't expect cleanly separated model and view layers in another part...
12:02:17 <Vorpal> wha?! ^ is broken in kate suddenly
12:02:23 <Vorpal> or rather, the dead key, does nothing
12:02:43 <Vorpal> okay even stranger, after switching focus back and forth *two* times it works
12:02:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I like it for C/C++, I use emacs for some other languages, nano for config files. And so on.
12:03:12 <Vorpal> and kate is way better than gedit
12:06:44 <olsner> gedit? that comparison is almost meaningless
12:08:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, do you know if the length of the links affects the time a trace takes?
12:08:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, or if one could simply link them up to closest one to get a less messy view of the world?
12:08:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Traces are crazily long, and it's not much hassle to set up.
12:09:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the cheat menu has a "cancel current trace" too XD
12:09:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, actually traces can vary a lot. Seen everything between 400 seconds and 65 seconds
12:10:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the latter was global crime db iirc
12:10:30 <Vorpal> I didn't manage to get in. Did manage to clean up my tracks in case of passive tracing iirc
12:10:31 <Phantom_Hoover> The central computer on a mainframe gives you a minute if you're lucky, even with the aforementioned gamebreaking setup.
12:10:52 <Phantom_Hoover> And it starts as soon as the password crack initiates.
12:11:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what about monitor bypass?
12:11:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I haven't got to LAN hacking yet. Hasn't been playing it long enough. How does it work?
12:12:26 <Phantom_Hoover> You connect to a LAN, and then you have a network of systems which need to be hacked through to do something nefarious on the mainframe.
12:12:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ah, I have done freelance stuff so far
12:13:19 <oklopol> so what's the gameplay like in that game? i've understood it's mostly about watching bars go up
12:13:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, now to add the colouring of current target node
12:13:34 <Vorpal> oklopol, no, that would be progressquest I think
12:13:54 <Vorpal> oklopol, Do you know the way Holly Wood tends to portray hacking?
12:14:00 <Vorpal> oklopol, well, it is a game based on that
12:14:32 <Vorpal> oh maybe it is, *shrug*
12:14:35 <Vorpal> anyway you got the idea now
12:15:14 <Vorpal> object->Draw ( scrollX * GetLargeMapWidth(),
12:15:14 <Vorpal> scrollY * GetLargeMapHeight(),
12:15:22 <Vorpal> now to find what the heck object is
12:15:24 <oklopol> i'm not interested in the atmosphere or plot, i'm interested in what makes the gameplay interesting
12:15:43 <Vorpal> oklopol, well, Phantom_Hoover can explain. He isn't programming. I am
12:17:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Progress bars is probably a fairly good description, TbH.
12:17:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, less so than progress quest though
12:18:16 <oklopol> and once the bar gets full, do you have to quickly learn something about the computer, and then quickly write commands?
12:19:58 <oklopol> well that's not important, i'm just wondering if you have to be quick after waiting
12:20:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I haven't used it so far. What is it good for? I tried it, and it was utterly limited. not even del or rm
12:20:28 <Vorpal> oklopol, and yes sometimes you have. Not always though.
12:20:37 <Phantom_Hoover> It does have rm, it's just limited to a small number of targets.
12:20:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, no such command it said, it had dir istead
12:21:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, also dir foo didn't work. You needed cd foo\ndir\ncd ..
12:21:36 <oklopol> you can't program viruses or anything like that?
12:22:12 <oklopol> i'm sure you do but that's kind irrelevant
12:22:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you know the outline for nodes you have access to an account on?
12:23:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, as far as I can tell, it is never drawn. I read through the entire code to draw the world map, and it doesn't seem to be there
12:23:27 <Vorpal> of course it is there, I just can't find it
12:23:35 <Vorpal> // Draw red circles over computers infected with Revelation
12:23:46 <Vorpal> this is, by the way, in the main draw function
12:23:51 <Vorpal> not in the draw objects functions
12:23:57 <Vorpal> nor in the object->draw ones
12:24:08 <Vorpal> if you are doing OO, at least do it right
12:24:43 <Vorpal> oh wait, there it is. But where the fuck is that called?
12:25:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the outline drawing function is added as a callback with a function pointer when constructing another object I think. I'm not exactly sure where *those* objects are invoked, nor what type they are... but yeah
12:26:25 <Vorpal> ./interface/remoteinterface/nuclearwarscreen_interface.h:static void DrawLocation ( Button *button, bool highlighted, bool clicked ); <-- huh, I wonder what that file is
12:26:58 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, war games?
12:27:50 <Vorpal> EclRegisterButtonCallbacks ( name, DrawLocation, LocationClick, button_click, button_highlight ); <-- so in DrawLocation there, it draws the outline
12:28:01 <Vorpal> the actual object is drawn elsewhere
12:28:23 -!- Slereah has joined.
12:29:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, by the way, adding another screen resolution option was trivial. I'm not sure why it works. From what I can tell the code must be inspecting the button "name" that it is assigned on construction to extract the resolution out of it.
12:29:46 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
12:30:08 <Vorpal> either that or the button text
12:32:16 <Vorpal> int score_peoplefucked;
12:32:17 <Vorpal> int score_systemsfucked;
12:32:17 <Vorpal> int score_highsecurityhacks;
12:32:56 <Vorpal> I presume the first is related to the "discredit foo" kind of missions
12:33:55 <Vorpal> now I got diverted to grep the source for such words
12:35:14 <Vorpal> void CheatInterface::LotsOfMoneyClick ( Button *button )
12:35:15 <Vorpal> game->GetWorld ()->GetPlayer ()->ChangeBalance ( 10000, "You cheating motherfucker!" );
12:36:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and in the cheat to give all hardware we have: SetModemType ( "Fast fucker", gatewayDef->bandwidth );
12:37:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you can click it several times
12:38:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, did I mention the inline asm to you? Thanfully most of it will fall back on C versions for linux, but I had to write some x86-64 asm (especially for the code that generates a back trace!)
12:38:47 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
12:39:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway, there are no instances of damn, dammit or shit. A lot of "fuck", "fucking", "fucks" and so on though.
12:42:47 -!- Slereah has joined.
12:43:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I have no idea yet what this is for:bool timetochangeunderware = false;
12:44:14 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
12:45:15 <Vorpal> olsner, oh it seems to be set if the system is supposed to change passwords. After a hack was discovered
12:46:16 <olsner> ah, so it's a bit of a pun then, rather than just a nonsensically named variable
12:46:45 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
12:47:31 <Vorpal> hm maybe I should change the code so it only generates valid ips
12:47:55 <Vorpal> 923.258.1.534 breaks suspension of disbelief for me
12:52:30 <Vorpal> olsner, at least uplink does none of that silly poinless get/set-method stuff that "proper" C++ is so (in)famous for.
12:52:56 -!- iconmaster_ has joined.
12:54:44 <olsner> Vorpal: hmm? I don't think get/set methods are a C++ thing - rather some kind of "proper OOP/encapsulation" thing
12:55:30 <Vorpal> it doesn't do that anyway
12:55:47 <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I have no idea yet what this is for: bool timetochangeunderware = false;
12:55:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I found out a few lines below
12:56:01 <olsner> yep, still as silly, regardless of where it comes from
12:56:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Presumably that something frightening is or has happened.
12:56:46 <Vorpal> at least C# (no idea about java) has these "property" thingies, that makes the syntax the same as if you were to access a field. Still silly but less annoying when coding.
12:58:29 -!- iconmaster_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
12:58:50 <Vorpal> KingOfKarlsruhe, so same as C++ then?
12:59:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, adding the colouring of target system seems... tricky
13:00:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the IP as such is not stored in the Mission object. Rather there are 5 strings completionA to completionE, that are used differently for different types of missions
13:00:18 <Vorpal> ip is *often* but not always in completionA
13:03:53 <Vorpal> oh I found a way to do it
13:04:49 <Vorpal> sscanf ( button->name, "worldmap %s %d", ip, &index );
13:06:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, so, erm, how long until you're satisfied enough that you would send a copy my way?
13:06:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, depends on how long to add the colouring. Also how to send it? Do you have anywhere I can scp it?
13:07:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway why do you want this binary, rather than the last version?
13:07:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Not really. Surely a file on 50MB order would be sendable through email?
13:07:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but what if they trace me!?
13:07:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I need to bounce it to send it to you
13:08:52 <Vorpal> adding colouring is tricky
13:08:57 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm assuming you know the InterNIC trick for paths, right?
13:09:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you mean adding the shitload from it and then making a long path?
13:09:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, also another thing, to avoid passive scans, shouldn't routing through the uplink test system be a good way, then after go there and easily remove the logs with no fear of legal actions
13:10:00 <Vorpal> or am I missing something
13:10:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it doesn't? Huh. So you mean hack the admin password of it?
13:11:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so like the test system but even better?
13:20:02 -!- iconmaster_ has joined.
13:22:05 <iconmaster_> I noticed the new frontpage today, and I am dissapointed that there is no Matrix of Solidity quote to be found.
13:23:38 <Vorpal> iconmaster_, check title text of the image
13:25:50 -!- iconmaster_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
13:34:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, some, fixing build errors atm after my change
13:34:06 <Vorpal> mostly due to C++ stupidity
13:34:15 <Vorpal> char* vs. const char* and so on
13:34:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, I remembered that bank hack missions frequently ask you to probe an account with very large amounts of cash.
13:35:25 -!- azaq23 has joined.
13:38:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, any good at C++?
13:39:10 <Vorpal> I wonder if base class with virtual destructor and child class with non-virtual destructor will do the right thing.
13:39:28 <Vorpal> my change might otherwise leak memory.
13:41:51 <Vorpal> correction: the holy crap
13:42:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Actually, the other source of mega-accounts is money transfer missions, since you can just nick the money from your client once you're done.
13:42:54 <Vorpal> okay somewhat less holy crap
13:48:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, my change made labels on the worldmap experience uncertainty about their position. Yet I didn't modify anything related to that
13:51:40 <Vorpal> I forgot == was stupid on C strings
13:51:53 <Vorpal> that doesn't answer the nervous label though
13:56:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway, since you own uplink, why not use that copy?
13:56:24 <olsner> Vorpal: lol, how do you forget that? :)
13:56:54 <Vorpal> olsner, I probably didn't read the answer if he did answer it
13:56:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, a) it was Mac, b) I'm not sure how I can transfer the authorisation process; I bought it *years* ago.
13:57:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the authorisation is just referring to a key card
13:57:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, like physical card
13:57:40 <Vorpal> it tells you a column and a row, and you have to enter the code there
13:57:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes, I have the full version here.
13:57:52 <Vorpal> and that uses the key card
13:58:00 <olsner> Vorpal: meant the == on C strings, not sure what question you answered
13:59:27 <Vorpal> olsner, and I forgot because most recent C programming I have done were stuff where comparing strings would have been bad. If you don't know how long the strings are, knowing how long strcmp takes becomes messy. And I have been doing hard realtime recently.
13:59:39 <Vorpal> olsner, and apart from that, not much C
14:00:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, how, exactly, am I meant to get the full version?
14:00:23 <Phantom_Hoover> I got it through Ambrosia by downloading, and that was several years back.
14:00:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm. torrent?
14:01:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but one thing I can give you that the binary can't is a custom screen resolution.
14:01:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, any specific you want?
14:02:05 <Vorpal> personally I use a large windowed one. 1400x900
14:02:18 <Phantom_Hoover> One which works natively, and is at a later version than any I'd torrent.
14:02:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so give me your gpg key, so I can encrypt it
14:02:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, sorry, mine is old
14:02:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, becuase the development cd is old
14:02:44 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, there are newer from torrenting
14:10:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the one I found for the developer cd on tpb works. (I got the game, but not the dev cd legally)
14:11:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, SE is seeders, LE is leachers
14:11:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, plus I torrented one to get older data files needed for the version on the dev cd. So the one called "ultimate" or whatever on that certain bay works. Still seeding it.
14:12:00 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
14:12:36 -!- FireFly has joined.
14:12:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it is included in there as a zip on the cue+bin image
14:13:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, bchunk is a tool to convert cue+bin to iso
14:13:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, available in ubuntu and arch repos at least
14:14:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh and for that one you need to get the 1.54 update from introversion.
14:15:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, then you need some ia32-libs on ubuntu. To extract the update you need to run it as ./update.sh --help to find option to extract to a specific dir, then copy (but do not overwrite) the data file from the iso into the lib dir in the extracted area.
14:15:25 <Vorpal> go to bin/x86 and make a symlink to ../../lib there
14:20:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not peered to me
14:23:08 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224]).
14:33:52 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
14:38:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, haven't hit that one
14:38:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, did you get the 1.54 upgrade and use that binary?
14:48:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the patch is what you should and use. Just copy the data files missing in the patch from the uplink.zip on the cd
14:49:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, no cheating for you in that version though ;)
14:50:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway my build is buggy with a lot of jumps. Sometimes the link from the gateway to the first jumps get lost!
14:50:11 <Vorpal> I don't know but it breaks save/load
14:50:21 <Vorpal> and sometimes the labels go nervous, though not often
15:01:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I have already twice ruined a new account by messing up while purchasing things.
15:06:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you could use the tutorial if you don't remember
15:13:58 -!- FireFly has joined.
15:19:46 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
15:47:51 -!- Tan has joined.
15:50:16 -!- Tan has left.
15:54:25 -!- elliott has joined.
15:55:58 <elliott> 05:03:40: <pikhq> Right, the UK keyboard has tiny-enter syndrome.
15:56:26 <elliott> http://www.clickykeyboard.com/_ebay/ibm_55323685l-001/ibm_553236475l-001.jpg Pictured: Gigantic enter.
15:57:37 <elliott> 05:08:24: <oerjan> just one problem, ^ is in there :D
15:59:47 <elliott> 08:15:31: <oerjan> mind blown http://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/grpv6/til_why_zippers_have_ykk_on_them_the_ykk_stands/
15:59:54 <elliott> finally I know who to blame for making zippers get stuck so much
16:00:26 <elliott> 10:28:21: <Phantom_Hoover> Oh my god all of the IT Crowd's latest season is on YouTube.
16:00:27 <elliott> 10:35:04: <Phantom_Hoover> Some of the earlier ones are there as well.
16:00:30 <olsner> "But who makes the machine that makes the machine to make zippers?" :)
16:00:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: [Four] on Demand has everything.
16:02:53 <elliott> 11:41:33: <Vorpal> T GetData ( int index ); // slow unless sequential
16:02:53 <elliott> 11:42:00: <Vorpal> a linked list, but keeps a pointer to last accessed index. I think.
16:03:01 -!- zzo38 has joined.
16:03:36 <olsner> YKK apparently also do "fenestration systems"
16:03:39 <elliott> too long a story to explain
16:03:48 <elliott> olsner: so they... unthrow people out of windows?
16:03:55 <Vorpal> elliott, I seen the word "byuu" elsewhere before
16:04:17 <olsner> elliott: maybe they also do defenestration systems
16:04:33 <elliott> Vorpal: also of that public_cast thing i linked you :)
16:04:37 <elliott> can someone say [caret]ul plz
16:04:43 <Vorpal> elliott, why would he be involved in uplink?
16:04:51 <elliott> Vorpal: remember when is aid long story?
16:05:16 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I'm waiting for the long story. I have time.
16:05:35 <elliott> Vorpal: i don't have the patience. unless you keep bugging me, in which case the utility of telling you might go up far enough.
16:05:38 <elliott> i shouldn't have told you that.
16:06:41 <elliott> Vorpal: in bsnes byuu has a foreach (thing, source) macro
16:06:49 <elliott> where source is something indexable with source[index]
16:06:57 <olsner> ooh, this episode has a "viewer discretion is adviced", none of the others have had that
16:07:01 <elliott> he says that linked lists should just support fast sequential indexing, rather than the mess of C++ iterators
16:07:10 <elliott> this is based on one forum post
16:07:14 <elliott> that was the most obscure, boring reference ever
16:07:29 <elliott> olsner: well it _does_ take quite a lot for goat porn to reach the viewer discretion level
16:07:37 <elliott> someone fucking type [caret]ul
16:07:51 <olsner> you have a caret, just copy-paste it damnit
16:08:39 <olsner> elliott: yeah, it might mean that there are humans in this piece of goat porn!
16:08:41 <fungot> `1234567890-=~!@#$%^&*()_+
16:09:26 <Vorpal> why goats. Why not some other non-human mammal?
16:09:45 <Gregor> What a silly question.
16:10:05 <Vorpal> I'm seriously wondering why goat porn ended up as a kind of meme
16:10:36 <Gregor> Goat porn is sheep porn for real men.
16:10:49 <Vorpal> Gregor, bah, real men use hippos.
16:11:53 <elliott> 12:20:09: <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I haven't used it so far. What is it good for? I tried it, and it was utterly limited. not even del or rm
16:12:08 <elliott> also, destroying an entire system easily if you want to :)
16:13:47 <olsner> oh, apparently strong bad is known for enjoying goat porn
16:13:53 <olsner> maybe that's where it comes from
16:13:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Useless, since if you're deleting logs anywhere but InterNIC, you're doing it wrong, but neat.
16:13:55 <elliott> so the log remover is a waste of money unless you're trying to be selective :D
16:14:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I used to remove the entire log directories as standard procedure.
16:15:09 <elliott> Vorpal: Cool thing about Uplink: If you get caught, then you can actually find yourself in your next game.
16:15:13 <elliott> In records or something, IIRC.
16:15:28 <elliott> Vorpal: In fact, I believe you can get lots of money by getting caught repeatedly somehow.
16:15:35 <elliott> Although IIRC that was fixed and the game punishes you for it. Don't recall.
16:16:13 <elliott> 12:56:46: <Vorpal> at least C# (no idea about java) has these "property" thingies, that makes the syntax the same as if you were to access a field. Still silly but less annoying when coding.
16:16:20 <elliott> Vorpal: not silly, it's useful for "virtual" properties
16:16:31 <elliott> e.g. say you update some field manually
16:16:36 <elliott> but then change it to be calculated on-the-fly
16:19:55 <elliott> 14:02:18: <Phantom_Hoover> One which works natively, and is at a later version than any I'd torrent.
16:19:58 <elliott> Uplink 1 54 Linux i386 deb Fully Patched Working » games other
16:20:17 <elliott> Most of them are the Hacker Elite version. Gross.
16:26:05 <elliott> "I don't know how it happened either! It's like one day I was a baby and the next day I woke up and realized I was 16 and had never seen Star Wars. And that I was actually 21."
16:39:26 <elliott> [[[Expired for gnome-control-center (Ubuntu) because there has been no activity for 60 days.]]]
16:39:28 <elliott> BUGS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY.
16:42:31 <elliott> What, the Star Wars quote?
16:42:38 <elliott> Oh. No, that's an automated program.
16:42:52 <elliott> Apparently, if you don't hear anything about a bug for sixty days, it's irrelevant.
16:43:12 <elliott> My new development methodology: Whenever you see a bug, don't do anything about it for sixty days.
16:43:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I HAVE A BETTER IDEA
16:43:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Hack bank. Steal SO MUCH MONEY. Use money to buy tools to avoid getting caught.
16:44:03 <elliott> This requires SUPERHUMAN REFLEXES
16:44:18 <elliott> "If cats actually existed rather than being simple figments of your imagination this plan would make perfect sense. Unfortunately for you, being a cat lover is actually considered pedophilia in many parts of the world, as such you should be arrested for your heinous threat."
16:44:48 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: erasing logs <elliott> you can do it instantly <-- nice, how?
16:44:55 <elliott> Vorpal: I forget. Erase /var or something.
16:45:06 <elliott> Maybe I'm wrong, I was never a good Uplink player.
16:45:23 <elliott> Vorpal: So there are physical disc copies of one point five four?
16:45:30 <elliott> i.e. I can search for an untarnished ISO?
16:45:45 <elliott> What's the copyright protection like, I've forgotten entirely.
16:46:07 <elliott> Ah, the Ultimate Collection looks okay.
16:46:15 <Vorpal> elliott, uh not sure, the one I have is uplink 1.52
16:46:28 <Vorpal> elliott, and it is a LUT
16:46:42 <elliott> I see it in the description.
16:46:47 <Vorpal> elliott, usually called that in hardwary contexts iirc
16:46:51 <elliott> I'll wait for this download to finish first.
16:47:05 <elliott> Vorpal: Pah, Monkey Island One's copyright protection was teh bestest
16:47:06 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm seeding that one, I got older data files for that one
16:47:16 <elliott> You used a little spinning wheel thing to form a pirate face out of multiple elementsX
16:47:37 <elliott> Vorpal: It has the one point five four patch, says the torrent description.
16:47:46 <elliott> So I should be fine with just this torrent, to get one point five four?
16:47:55 <Vorpal> elliott, the linux one on the cue/bin didn't
16:47:56 <elliott> <elliott> You used a little spinning wheel thing to form a pirate face out of multiple elementsX
16:48:01 <elliott> You used a PHYSICAL wheel thing to do it
16:48:23 <Vorpal> elliott, I heard infocom had rather fancy ones too?
16:48:32 <elliott> Vorpal: Copy protection? Dunno, but they had feelies.
16:48:39 <elliott> Man, remember when buying physical copies of a game would actually give you something more fun than just some digital media?
16:48:57 <elliott> But maybe the game industry will realise that soon, if they don't move entirely to digital distribution.
16:49:05 <Vorpal> elliott, I remember when buying a physical copy of a non-game software would give you a thick 200-page manual
16:49:33 <elliott> Well, it sure made the packaging heavier.
16:49:39 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't remember the IBM ringbinders (ah those must have been the days!)
16:50:37 <Vorpal> olsner, yes. I think I have some early MS Office for mac (classic) with a 100 page manual, and I remember clarrisworks used to come on multiple floppies + a thick manual (didn't buy the last one myself)
16:50:45 <Vorpal> also not sure about spelling
16:50:53 <elliott> Who invented offline manuals.
16:51:03 <olsner> wow, you must be old Vorpal
16:51:19 <elliott> olsner: he's younger than you bro
16:51:42 <elliott> unfortunately i cannot make any other guesses
16:51:44 <elliott> as i would be unable to type them
16:51:55 <Vorpal> yes I'm very intelligent for a 9 year old, since I'm studying second year at university
16:52:08 <elliott> Vorpal: yes. and you know what they say about 9 year olds in their second year of university?
16:52:25 <Vorpal> nah, "wow, that's the next einstein"
16:52:34 <elliott> Vorpal: Einstein wasn't an irritating little brat :D
16:53:05 <Vorpal> elliott, actually, according to what Sagan said in one Cosmos episode he was considered unruly by his teachers.
16:53:24 <Vorpal> speaking of which, I have one episode left to watch
16:53:40 <elliott> PROBABLY TOO BUSY SMOKING POT TO PAY ATTENTION
16:54:16 <Vorpal> // ClientCommsInterface.h: interface for the ClientCommsInterface class.
16:54:17 <elliott> http://www.illuminati-news.com/famous-freemasons.htm ;; ALSO APPARENTLY A FREEMASON
16:54:18 <Vorpal> // ClientCommsInterface.cpp: implementation of the ClientCommsInterface class.
16:54:23 <Vorpal> okay... but what is it?
16:54:29 <elliott> C++ should just abandon source files
16:54:33 <elliott> since with templates, everything has to be in headers
16:54:36 <elliott> and everyone loves templates
16:54:40 <elliott> there should just be .h files
16:54:46 <Vorpal> elliott, ah but there is a way around it
16:54:53 <Vorpal> elliott, #include "implementation.cpp"
16:54:57 <Vorpal> in the bottom of the header
16:55:07 <elliott> moar liek worst of two worlds
16:55:09 <Vorpal> note: uplink actually does this
16:55:17 <elliott> i love how in C++ you have to include the private parts of a class in the header
16:55:22 <elliott> because they break your ABI
16:55:32 <elliott> C++: worse at encapsulation than C
16:55:53 <Vorpal> elliott, at least uplink doesn't do any stupid getter/setter stuff. Unless there is some need to do complex allocation or such there is no setter method.
16:56:01 <Vorpal> and I have yet to see any getter
16:56:07 <elliott> Getters/setters are alright, as long as they're optional.
16:56:10 <elliott> e.g. see Python's way of doing it.
16:56:22 <elliott> Everything is public, but you can make a property out of a get and set function.
16:56:30 <elliott> So you don't need to plan ahead for this kind of stuff.
16:56:42 <Vorpal> elliott, how can you make a property like that?
16:56:44 <elliott> You just use public slots, and if you need to change one of them to do more than just plain getting and setting, you can convert it.
16:57:02 <elliott> def set_x(self, value): ...
16:57:12 <elliott> x = property(get_x, set_x, del_x, 'lol this is x')
16:57:18 <elliott> Vorpal: You can do it less uglily and simplery.
16:57:20 <elliott> But that's the basic idea.
16:57:34 <Vorpal> elliott, I love how you use a function call for it
16:58:04 <elliott> Pretty sure you can omit that :P
16:58:07 <Vorpal> what does that do now again
16:58:09 <elliott> Vorpal: btw, you can do properties in C++.
16:58:18 <Vorpal> elliott, with macros you can in C++ at least yes
16:58:27 <Vorpal> elliott, templates then :P
16:58:43 <elliott> They make the implementation more generic but you don't need them.
16:58:45 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway you could do it with operator override on the type of the field
16:58:49 <elliott> Vorpal: http://sprunge.us/OGEU
16:58:52 <elliott> Yeah, that's basically what I did.
16:59:02 <Vorpal> <elliott> Yeah, that's basically what I did. <-- why did you code C++?
16:59:13 <Vorpal> #define self (*this) <-- scary
16:59:18 <elliott> Vorpal: I hate pointers :D
16:59:23 <elliott> Vorpal: You know how people play Sudoku as a time-wasting brain exercise?
16:59:25 <elliott> C++ is like that, but better.
17:00:20 <olsner> 'this' should've been a reference, but I guess c++ didn't have them when they introduced it
17:01:05 <elliott> Here's some more of my C++ perversions:
17:01:20 <elliott> Ignore that static_true/static_false stuff, it was another random experiment.
17:02:09 <elliott> is really fucking hard to write
17:02:17 <elliott> because then you can't do maybe<foo[and]>
17:02:25 <elliott> because you can't have a pointer to a reference
17:03:54 -!- lament has joined.
17:04:15 <elliott> it really sucks when it takes a while for my ISP throttling to kick in
17:04:26 <elliott> and I download like eight MiB/s
17:04:37 <elliott> then it goes down to six-hundred KiB/s :(
17:05:25 <pizearke> I'm usually always around 600 kbps
17:05:54 <elliott> that's usually me too... but last night and today, the throttling has been working badly or something
17:06:15 <elliott> so it starts at like eight mebibytes a second, then goes down to three mebibytes a second, one mebibyte, slight pause, six hundred kibibytes
17:08:52 <elliott> If I was feeling really pedantic I'd be saying "octet" instead of "byte" too.
17:09:03 <Vorpal> elliott, what is "maybe" there=
17:09:12 <elliott> Vorpal: Haskell's (Maybe a).
17:09:32 <Vorpal> <elliott> and I download like eight MiB/s <-- you downloaded bandwidth?
17:09:59 <elliott> Vorpal: Then I downloaded some RAM: http://www.downloadmoreram.com/
17:10:11 <Vorpal> elliott, also you meant Mio surely?
17:10:20 * elliott downloads another four gigs for good measure
17:10:25 <elliott> I suppose I should say... gibs.
17:10:43 <Vorpal> elliott, or use the uplink unit of gigaquads
17:10:50 <elliott> That's also the Star Trek unit :D
17:11:10 <elliott> I can only assume that a quad is like a hundred zettabytes.
17:11:23 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: Then I downloaded some RAM: http://www.downloadmoreram.com/ <-- joke? fraud?
17:11:37 <elliott> "Since I downloaded more RAM, I immediately returned the RAM I bought just the other day from my local electronics store, John's Electronics. The customer service there was great and they did not give me a hard time at all! If I ever have to buy another piece of electronics equipment I am definitely going to John's Electronics. That's John's Electronics, for all your electronic needs.
17:11:45 <elliott> ("I told the IT guy in work about this and he was so happy he laughed out loud!
17:11:57 <pizearke> I'm going to try downloading some ram.
17:12:08 <elliott> pizearke: be careful, it's illegal
17:12:14 <elliott> you could get arrested for ram piracy
17:12:21 <pizearke> Don't worry. I've got, like, 9 proxies
17:14:37 <Vorpal> elliott, for virtual destructors in C++, does this work: base class with virtual destructor, child class with non-virtual destructor
17:14:48 <Vorpal> elliott, uplink has that but since the base had an empty destructor...
17:15:07 <Vorpal> huh, he knows C++ well? That surprises me
17:15:13 <olsner> it will work but it will occasionally do the completely wrong thing
17:15:17 <elliott> does Mono support NET four point oh?
17:15:22 <Vorpal> olsner, oh? what is the wrong thing?
17:15:38 <olsner> or wait, I might not have read the question properly
17:15:51 <olsner> I think the subclass will just automatically get a virtual destructor
17:17:29 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
17:17:38 <Sgeo_> How did I accidentally close out of here?
17:18:20 <olsner> Sgeo_: alt-z to disable accidental closing
17:18:39 <Sgeo_> I'm now very curious what that does
17:18:40 <elliott> I suppose I should write a Funciton interpreter that runs on something other than Microsoft desktop operating systems with a new version of Visual Studio, but the parsing will be gross.
17:19:23 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloggernacle
17:20:42 <Vorpal> elliott, in uplink, is there any need for Proxy_disable if you have Proxy_bypass?
17:20:51 <elliott> Dunno, ask Phantom_Hoover.
17:21:09 <elliott> "Armenia makes chess compulsory in schools"
17:21:28 <Sgeo_> "The thing is, alt-z closes the window with a part message."
17:21:43 <Sgeo_> In what client? I doubt all clients are exactly the same
17:22:12 <Sgeo_> Also, alt-z seems to do nothing in Silverex
17:22:21 <Sgeo_> Just pressed it a few times
17:32:52 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:35:21 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: zzo38).
17:36:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm. Well the dev build is buggy as hell. Some might be bitrot. It just segfaulted on me using the console to delete logs
17:38:34 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, several people have produced pretty popular patches with it...
17:38:50 <elliott> I bet the forum has some kind of Combined Modern Systems and Bugfixes Patch that you're slowly recreating an inferior version of :P
17:40:04 <elliott> Either that or it's totally dead.
17:45:40 <fungot> `1234567890-=~!@#$%^&*()_+
17:50:52 <elliott> Erm. Hardlinks are copy-on-write, yeah?
17:51:12 <elliott> I thought if you modified a hardlinked file, the link broke.
17:51:20 <Vorpal> elliott, they are if you have an editor that does save as new, delete old, rename
17:51:24 <Vorpal> which a lot of editors do
17:51:27 <elliott> Oh, right, _that_ bullshit.
17:51:34 <Vorpal> some like emacs leave the old ones as foo~
17:51:49 <Vorpal> elliott, what is too risky?
17:52:01 <elliott> (I don't want to duplicate this fifteen gigs, but I don't want to risk accidentally trashing the originals either.)
17:52:04 <Vorpal> elliott, they have their uses.
17:52:13 <Vorpal> elliott, you could probably use symlinks
17:52:28 <Vorpal> elliott, use lvm2! It can do it!
17:52:38 <elliott> Vorpal: I anticipate deleting the originals.
17:52:41 <elliott> That would be unwise with symlinks.
17:53:00 <Vorpal> elliott, lvm can do COW for logical volumes
17:53:04 <elliott> Unix inflexibility strikes again...
17:53:09 <elliott> Vorpal: What, create a new logical volume just for this? :P
17:53:27 <Vorpal> elliott, create a snapshot that can be edited. It will only store changed blocks.
17:54:04 <Vorpal> elliott, another way would possibly be versioning the stuff. Easy to go back then.
17:58:42 <elliott> Vorpal: You're still seeing that torrent?
17:59:00 -!- monqy has joined.
18:00:32 <Vorpal> elliott, *looks around* which one?
18:00:40 -!- cheater00 has joined.
18:00:45 <Vorpal> elliott, perhaps you meant "seeding"?
18:00:57 <Vorpal> elliott, and yes I'm seeding 8 different ones.
18:01:13 <elliott> The one that is Uplink. :p
18:01:39 <elliott> HEY VORPAL REMEMBER IN TWO-THOUSAND AND EIGHT WHEN YOU WOULD REFUSE TO BREAK COPYRIGHT LAW IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM ;D
18:01:55 <Vorpal> elliott, I became less ais yes
18:02:05 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
18:02:14 <elliott> I approve of this new use of "ais" as an adjective.
18:02:44 <elliott> I bet in two-thousand and seventy-two, the OED will include "ais, adj. Excessive abiding to the strict letter of every law possible" or something.
18:02:59 <elliott> Etymologists will look into it and be unable to believe that it descended from this random guy's initials.
18:10:42 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
18:11:07 -!- copumpkin has joined.
18:16:54 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:17:25 -!- sebbu has joined.
18:17:26 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
18:17:26 -!- sebbu has joined.
18:18:27 <elliott> Vorpal: So how hard is it to get Uplink installed? :p
18:18:33 <elliott> Just a symlink and thirty-two bit libs?
18:27:13 <Vorpal> elliott, old enough 32 bit libs yes. Ubuntu Lucid LTS have the required versions of some compat libs, arch linux does not.
18:27:36 <elliott> Stop putting the LTS after the version name btw, it's obnoxious :P
18:28:00 <elliott> Ubuntu LTS is like, even further behind than Debian stable X-D
18:28:01 <Vorpal> elliott, Ubuntu Lucid 10.4 LTS even I think
18:28:24 <Vorpal> elliott, come on, it wasn't when I installed it
18:28:59 <Vorpal> elliott, or is it 10.04?
18:29:50 <Vorpal> elliott, you could easily have copied pasted that! select and middle click
18:30:08 <elliott> maybe i will if you buy me a new laptopX
18:30:53 <Vorpal> elliott, you could just call apple tomorrow or so
18:31:15 <elliott> Yesyes, but then I'd totally be without a laptop. If you buy me a new laptop, I can have TWO laptopsXXXX
18:31:25 <elliott> And this could become a server so I don't have to move all these gigantic filesXXXXXX
18:31:32 <elliott> Actually i would have THREEEE LAPTOPS
18:31:36 <elliott> Four if you count that piece of shit.
18:31:42 <elliott> Five if you count the bricked UbiSurfer.
18:32:28 <elliott> http://torrentz.eu/53d72d29db59b52230972be1eecced83d5b23da5
18:32:34 <elliott> Well-seeded with patches and key.
18:32:35 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, what about your other laptop
18:32:42 <Vorpal> elliott, iirc same model as ais has
18:33:02 <elliott> Vorpal: It also has a broken keyboardX I have an external keyboard plugged into it.
18:33:03 <Vorpal> <elliott> Yesyes, but then I'd totally be without a laptop. If you buy me a new laptop, I can have TWO laptopsXXXX
18:33:12 <elliott> <elliott> Actually i would have THREEEE LAPTOPS
18:33:14 <elliott> <elliott> Four if you count that piece of shit.
18:33:14 <elliott> <elliott> Five if you count the bricked UbiSurfer.
18:33:20 <Vorpal> elliott, too late! You already lied
18:33:37 <elliott> P.S. Presence in the [octothorpe]matrixofsolidity is far too low.
18:33:40 <elliott> Enter immediately, everyone.
18:39:29 <Vorpal> elliott, next thing: change IPs in uplink to be valid ones. 985.255.658.548 and so on *really* break suspension in disbelief. Not only is one section broadcast there, but the other values are out of range!
18:39:54 <elliott> Same reason US TV uses five-five-five numbers.
18:40:05 <elliott> Vorpal: IIRC there's some "private use" area of IP.
18:40:06 <Vorpal> elliott, there are lower ones too
18:40:22 <elliott> fizzie or Ilari will know.
18:40:38 <elliott> Maybe "nothing at all" rather than "private use", even.
18:40:51 <Vorpal> elliott, there is a severe lack of THAT nowdays on ipv4
18:41:10 <elliott> I think there _is_ one non-[ten]. and non-[one-two-seven]. range.
18:41:16 <Vorpal> elliott, several reserved ones have been re-used
18:41:32 <elliott> "For private use" or similar.
18:41:38 <elliott> There's another one, I swear.
18:41:41 <elliott> One-seven-two _might_ be it.
18:41:53 <Vorpal> elliott, I think 172 is private.
18:42:01 <Vorpal> well private B class or something
18:42:06 <elliott> Vorpal: That would be a good choice, then.
18:42:14 <elliott> Unless you want TOTAL REALISM
18:42:15 <Vorpal> elliott, 192 is private C class iirc
18:42:28 <Vorpal> elliott, I actually planned to go for total realism here
18:42:37 <Vorpal> elliott, making sure to avoid broadcasts and reserved ranges and so on
18:42:58 <Vorpal> elliott, I haven't done LAN hacking yet, but I presume they use the same sort of IPs, or private-use ones
18:43:04 <elliott> Sure, but if you post your patch, don't say I didn't warn you if people go "omg I looked up the IP for InterNIC and it's actually AMAZONXXXX"
18:43:16 <fizzie> 169.254.0.0/16 is reserved for link-local autoconfigurationary things; and 172.16.0.0/12 is that formerly-considered-B-class private range.
18:43:23 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't have access to the dev forum. I doubt I'll post any of these patches
18:43:39 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, it wouldn't be a Hollywood simulator if it didn't use invalid IPs.
18:43:52 <Vorpal> elliott, oh? Hm maybe they do that
18:44:01 <elliott> Vorpal: You should fix that unrealistic letter-by-letter password cracker while you're at it :D
18:44:15 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
18:44:22 <elliott> Vorpal: http://i.imgur.com/prFIq.jpg CSIPv[Four]
18:44:31 <elliott> Uplink's more realistic than that :D
18:44:35 <fizzie> There's also 192.0.2.0/24, 198.51.100.0/24 and 203.0.113.0/24 (TEST-NET-1/2/3) that are reserved for documentation and source code examples like that; they look pretty "realistic" (since they look like just any regular addresses) though of course it won't look realistic if all addresses are just from three different /24s.
18:45:21 <Vorpal> elliott, "reversed internet protocol process"?
18:45:27 <Vorpal> elliott, okay what is that from...
18:45:40 <Vorpal> how fitting for my intention
18:45:45 <elliott> Vorpal: BTW, you should also use Visual Basic to write a GUI interface to track down the IP address.
18:45:52 <elliott> That would be a good thing to add to Uplink.
18:46:07 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkDD03yeLnU
18:48:10 <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> elliott, I haven't done LAN hacking yet, but I presume they use the same sort of IPs, or private-use ones
18:48:31 <Phantom_Hoover> You connect to the system externally, then probe around in a graphical maze thing.
18:48:56 <elliott> Honestly, hacking should work exactly like it does in Uplink. It would be SO COOL
18:49:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, unless you actually like having any security in your life.
18:50:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Would you rather have security or AWESOME
18:50:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and what IPs do they have?
18:50:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Just icons of computers with lines representing connections.
18:50:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: BTW, which side did you take in the plotline?
18:50:38 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh maybe appletalk or whatever thing those old novel systems used
18:51:02 <elliott> ARC is the destroy-the-interwebs one, right?
18:51:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, will they contact you or how does it work
18:51:13 <Vorpal> I haven't heard from either yet
18:51:19 <elliott> Vorpal: Both contact you, IIRC.
18:51:26 <Phantom_Hoover> With a virus which spreads like treacle and with Arunmor hounding you with Faith.
18:51:35 <fizzie> Vorpal: Since it's SCI-FI, you could use 240.0.0.0/4 addresses too.
18:51:36 <elliott> I'd be tempted to go with ARC if only for the perverse pleasure of wiping out the Internet.
18:51:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, what are those?
18:52:02 <elliott> Vorpal: MAKE IT GENERATE IPv[SIX] ADDRESSES INSTEAD
18:52:09 <elliott> The probability of generating one that actually exists is approximately zero.
18:52:11 <Phantom_Hoover> There are real-life viruses more effective than Revelation, it seems.
18:52:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but AWESOME
18:52:24 <fizzie> Vorpal: Class E, "reserved for future use".
18:52:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: wrt what oklopol said, Uplink totally needs a sequel that involves actually coding viruses.
18:52:43 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: http://lparchive.org/Uplink/ for a rather... different take on the ARC side.
18:53:09 <elliott> When you Finns go to school, I bet there's just one subject, and it's called "Facts".
18:53:14 <elliott> You just learn facts. Constantly.
18:53:25 <elliott> And it lasts for the first twenty years of your life, starting before birth (in-womb lessons).
18:53:36 <elliott> fizzie: Grr, it uses the Hacker Elite subtitle.
18:53:46 <elliott> INFERIOR MODIFIED THIRD-PARTY SELLER VERISON
18:54:34 <elliott> Vorpal: btw, it'd be cool if you could add an option to scale up the text by some multiple of two.
18:54:39 <elliott> Since it's quite small for today's screens.
18:55:19 <Vorpal> sec, I'm trying to fix a fucked up "sshfs, and forgot that it was mounted when I suspended the other computer"-situation
18:55:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: WE SHOULD WRITE THAT UPLINK SEQUEL
18:55:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: How did you get it working?
18:55:52 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, hmm, some kind of scripting thing based on Uplink programs?
18:56:03 <elliott> Right. I mean how did you get it installed?
18:56:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Re: Scripting thing:
18:56:15 <elliott> Well, you should be able to write programs like this.
18:56:20 <elliott> for computer in connections() {
18:56:34 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: btw, it'd be cool if you could add an option to scale up the text by some multiple of two. <-- yes but my build is buggy as fuck
18:56:47 <elliott> What I'm saying is, you don't get given Revelation, you have to write it yourself if you want it.
18:56:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Get the patch from Introversion; take .dats from torrent, put into patch's lib/, run uplink binary in patch's root directory.
18:57:01 <elliott> Want to crack passwords? Well, you could use the commercial tool... but it's slow as shit, you should write your own.
18:57:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Erm. Which torrent, mine just has .bin/.cue and the patches.
18:58:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, make the bin and cue into an iso with the thing Vorpal mentioned, then stick those files somewhere.
18:58:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Also those patches aren't the ones you need; you want the Linux one from Introversion's site.
18:58:37 <elliott> Haven't really read the logs.
18:58:39 -!- cheater- has joined.
18:58:46 <elliott> Or just the one point five four one?
18:59:00 <elliott> Hmm, Uplink involves typing numbers occasionally, doesn't it.
18:59:15 <Vorpal> <elliott> Do I need both? <-- both what?
18:59:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: For the degree stuff?
18:59:29 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
19:00:02 <elliott> Well, I can with copy-and-paste...
19:00:09 <elliott> Sigh. Archive Manager appends ;[one] to all the filenames in the Uplink ISO. Anyone know a non-retarded way to extract it?
19:00:16 <Vorpal> elliott, as I said to Phantom_Hoover before, get the patch and extract it. (./update.sh --help to see how to know where to place it) Then copy the missing data files from linux/uplink.zip on the bin/cue image to the lib. dir of it
19:00:26 <Vorpal> symlink lib into bin/x86
19:00:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that is what I told you iirc?
19:00:45 -!- lament has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
19:00:47 <elliott> http://lparchive.org/Uplink/Update%201/12-012.png ;; lol at that last one.
19:00:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh? okay how?
19:02:07 <Sgeo_> O'Brien.... erm, Bashir Must Suffer!
19:02:33 <Vorpal> elliott, that letsplay... "On a remote, abandoned oil rig in the treacherous seas between Antarctica and Cape Horn, a green light winked on, on the secret server as the connection was made.", lucky, the positions are randomised.
19:02:42 <Vorpal> This placement made a very dramatic one
19:02:51 <elliott> As opposed to, like, Scotland.
19:03:08 <Vorpal> elliott, I have a LAN up way north of Alaska in my game
19:03:21 <Vorpal> elliott, Sample Company iirc
19:03:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Once you have the iso contents and the contents of the patch archive from http://www.introversion.co.uk/uplink/downloads/linuxpatch1.54.tar.gz , find linux/uplink.zip in the iso, extract, take all .dats from it, move to the lib directory in the patch files.
19:03:27 <elliott> It would be cool if the server ended up right on the South Pole.
19:03:36 <elliott> BEST PLACE TO PUT A SERVER EVER
19:03:47 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Once you have the iso contents and the contents of the patch archive from http://www.introversion.co.uk/uplink/downloads/linuxpatch1.54.tar.gz , find linux/uplink.zip in the iso, extract, take all .dats from it, move to the lib directory in the patch files. <-- that's what I said!!
19:03:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Run uplink in patch directory, after chmodding it so it's executable.
19:04:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the update was a self-extracting .sh for me. What!?
19:05:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, strange... http://www.introversion.co.uk/uplink/otherfiles.html "download" goes to the .sh, mirror goes to .tar.gz
19:05:21 <elliott> OMG this Let's Play is reminding me how fucking awesome Uplink is.
19:05:39 <elliott> Introversion: The coolest???
19:06:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes, sadly in the dev version save/load is broken :(
19:06:16 <Phantom_Hoover> I routed my connection through every internal services machine on InterNIC and added some government sites and banks onto the end.
19:06:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: WOULD YOU CALL THE YOGSCASTERS AMATEURS
19:06:44 <elliott> "This version of Uplink links statically to the SDL library and to a patched version of the SDL_mixer library.
19:06:45 <elliott> SDL and SDL_mixer are used under the terms of the GNU LIBRARY GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE (see file COPYING), which requires that we provide a binary which is dynamically linked to these
19:06:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I routed my connection around every system I found. And I keep adding ones I find when hacking internal services, from the link list
19:06:51 <elliott> THAT IS NOT WHAT THE GPL MEANS BROTHERS
19:06:58 <elliott> You have to distribute your changes to SDL_mixer.
19:07:12 <Vorpal> elliott, the static one doesn't work btw. It tries to dlopen something
19:07:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I think I once routed through every single system.
19:07:28 <Vorpal> elliott, did you save the route?
19:07:40 <elliott> If I did, it was on a long-ago-formatted Windows partition.
19:07:41 <olsner> "Seven of Nine collected over 30 thousand gigaquads of research about romantic relationships." - 30 TQ of goat porn, then?
19:07:47 <elliott> I seem to recall the result being rather slow.
19:07:55 <elliott> olsner: why are you reading things about voyager
19:08:20 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, on InterNIC, probably, but the ones that really add to your trace times are central mainframes, which can only be found through missions and by hacking internal services.
19:08:44 <Vorpal> <elliott> I seem to recall the result being rather slow. <-- unlikely... uplink doesn't simulate latency as far as I can tell
19:08:45 <olsner> elliott: apparently voyager is the series that has the most talk about various numbers of quads
19:09:08 <elliott> olsner: Wasn't the doctor only like a hundred gigaquads?
19:09:12 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, now I want to make a hacker simulator! With dwarf fortress level attention to detail and realism
19:09:18 <Vorpal> I doubt I'd pull it off though
19:09:32 <elliott> Strong AI with a human-like personality and fast amounts of information and expertise: Vastly smaller than all the available information on human relationships.
19:09:45 <elliott> Vorpal: Like I said, we need Uplink Two: Virus-Writing Boogaloo.
19:09:47 <olsner> elliott: 50 million gigaquads, apaprently
19:09:55 <elliott> Maybe we should just write an ~ATH interpreter.
19:10:03 <olsner> hmm, for the "Mark I", dunno which version the doctor was
19:10:26 <elliott> Vorpal: It's the BEST virus-writing languageX
19:10:38 <Vorpal> elliott, how does it work?
19:11:02 <elliott> Vorpal: It's all based around infinite loops.
19:11:29 <Vorpal> elliott, http://lparchive.org/Uplink/Update%201/31-031.png XD
19:11:49 <elliott> http://mspaintadventures.wikia.com/wiki/~ATH
19:11:53 <elliott> http://images.wikia.com/mspaintadventures/images/d/de/Virus.gif
19:11:54 <elliott> http://images.wikia.com/mspaintadventures/images/8/81/Code.gif
19:14:18 <elliott> http://lparchive.org/Uplink/Update%201/27-026.png
19:15:09 <elliott> Vorpal: So where do I unpack the uplink/ directory in the patch .tar.gz?
19:15:15 <elliott> Presumably into the same directory as the existing uplink binary?
19:15:44 <elliott> Compiled on Nov 16 2006 at 20:46:23
19:15:45 <Vorpal> elliott, I told you above. And Phantom_Hoover told you for the non-.sh version
19:15:49 <elliott> It has fucked up my resolution though
19:15:56 <Vorpal> elliott, you forgot to ln -s the lib
19:16:09 <Vorpal> elliott, it does that sort of stuff when it fails to find the data
19:16:21 <Vorpal> elliott, .... yes. Maybe you didn't read
19:16:26 <olsner> "If these are accurate, USS Voyager's computers are more advanced and have a capacity that is orders of magnitude greater than the ones just seven years earlier in TNG."
19:16:32 <elliott> So I take it Uplink has no support of widescreen resolutions?
19:16:44 -!- `Fuco` has joined.
19:17:01 <olsner> I think we already have orders of magnitude compared to 7 years ago... so that would make perfect sense :/
19:17:18 <Vorpal> elliott, windowed yes. But you can only reach options after creating an account and clicking the x in the upper left corner to return to login screen
19:17:21 <elliott> Orders of magnitude? Not sure about that.
19:17:24 <Vorpal> then go to options there.
19:17:29 <elliott> Well, maybe in the field of supercomputers.
19:17:42 <elliott> Vorpal: So what's the symlinking again? >_>
19:17:56 <Vorpal> elliott, and you complain about me not having scrollback. ffs.
19:18:21 <elliott> It was a rather long time ago.
19:18:53 -!- Fuco has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
19:18:58 <Vorpal> for the self extracting installer version. I haven't tried .tar.gz one:
19:18:59 <elliott> http://lparchive.org/Uplink/Update%202/8-008.png wait wat
19:19:02 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> elliott, as I said to Phantom_Hoover before, get the patch and extract it. (./update.sh --help to see how to know where to place it) Then copy the missing data files from linux/uplink.zip on the bin/cue image to the lib. dir of it
19:19:03 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> symlink lib into bin/x86
19:19:03 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> run ./uplink in there
19:19:03 <elliott> Did this guy edit the data files?
19:19:20 <fizzie> ~ATH is indeed the best thing ever.
19:19:27 -!- `Fuco` has changed nick to Fuco.
19:19:31 <elliott> Can I have an asteriskerisk?
19:19:34 <fizzie> "This code, when executed, immediately causes the user's computer to explode, and places a curse on the user forever, along with everyone he knows, and everyone he'll ever meet.
19:19:34 <fizzie> Not surprisingly, later on you would run this code in a fit of stupidity.
19:19:35 <fizzie> You don't know how he does stuff like this. What does this even mean? It's nonsense. Is it even syntactically viable?? Are you allowed to color text like that??? ARGH. Maybe you should ask him about it some time."
19:19:59 -!- Fuco has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:20:05 <Vorpal> elliott, from the wiki I conclude that ~ATH is related to colourforth
19:20:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Can colorForth embed an animated eight-ball into code I THINK NOT
19:20:31 <elliott> I wonder how many thousands of strips behind I am now after my archive-binging attempt fizzled off.
19:20:43 <elliott> The kind of binge that lasts multiple weeks and leaves you with the mother of all hangovers.
19:20:56 <Vorpal> elliott, but look at the coloured code
19:22:55 -!- Fuco has joined.
19:27:29 -!- elliott_ has joined.
19:27:29 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:27:33 <elliott_> Got to the verification stage.
19:27:40 <elliott_> Uplink resisted all efforts to quit it.
19:27:45 <elliott_> Could not log in from console as I can not type my password.
19:29:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Calling the binary with -graphics_fullscreen windows it, although too clumsily to play.
19:31:12 <Phantom_Hoover> It doesn't allow resizing, so on my screen at least it gets blocked at the bottom.
19:33:27 <Vorpal> elliott_, yes that lp is moded: http://lparchive.org/Uplink/Update%205/21-021.png
19:33:28 <olsner> "<elliott_> Could not log in from console as I can not type my password." :D
19:33:28 -!- elliott_ has changed nick to elliott.
19:33:36 <Vorpal> elliott_, that gateway I have never seen
19:33:40 <elliott> NickServ, I _can't_ type my password for you.
19:33:46 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:34:04 -!- elliott has joined.
19:34:07 <elliott> Can someone relink that LP?
19:34:19 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> elliott_, yes that lp is moded: http://lparchive.org/Uplink/Update%205/21-021.png
19:34:21 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> elliott_, that gateway I have never seen
19:34:25 <Vorpal> http://lparchive.org/Uplink/Update%205/
19:35:15 <Vorpal> elliott, lucky for you
19:35:19 <elliott> in fact there is four 00s in a row
19:35:34 <elliott> hello, I am Aardvark, my password is varkism, and I am close to Tokyo
19:35:40 <elliott> My strategy is based on doing really stupid things.
19:35:52 <elliott> Vorpal: btw if you do change the IP generation, keep Uplink services' IP :D
19:37:25 <elliott> NO I DON'T WANT A TUTORIAL GO FUCK YOURSELF
19:37:28 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, really stupid things like taking on mainframe hacks with the default gateway?
19:37:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, make sure you delete the tutorial from your memory.
19:37:40 <elliott> Vorpal: That would be _sane_.
19:38:03 <elliott> BUT THAT WOULD BE REASONABLE
19:38:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, this *is* moded right? http://lparchive.org/Uplink/Update%205/21-021.png
19:38:13 <elliott> Hey, how _do_ you delete things?
19:38:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, or is there some way to "unlock" that in the normal version?
19:38:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, it's Hacker Elite, the crappy 3rd-party version.
19:38:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It also has a Something Awful server.
19:38:40 <elliott> So it's clearly slightly modded.
19:38:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh I see. Because that one he has is significantly fancier than the best one I can get
19:38:45 <elliott> The background music of Uplink is SO COOL.
19:39:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Managing your own memory is done with the memory tab and the file copier and deleter.
19:39:15 <Vorpal> Sample Company LAN in the sea north of Alaska. Weird company
19:39:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and with defrag iirc
19:39:29 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:39:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I needed that one at one point
19:39:42 <elliott> Time for UPLINK TEST MACHINE
19:39:47 <elliott> This calls for: SO MUCH ROUTING
19:39:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, there's a cluster of machines in Siberia on my game.
19:40:16 <Phantom_Hoover> The Russians clearly tried to foster economic growth there.
19:40:26 <elliott> How do you download files again? >_>;;
19:40:30 <elliott> Do you need another application?
19:40:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh I have clusters in Asia, including Siberia. Had one in AU before, not in this game
19:40:39 <Vorpal> elliott, you need the file copier
19:40:43 <elliott> P.S. I cheated on the test machine because I knew the password.
19:41:00 <elliott> Coooool, so they view network resources just like local resources.
19:41:08 <elliott> UPLINK INTERFACE: BETTER THAN UNIX
19:41:51 <elliott> Vorpal: btw try "help" at the console
19:41:56 <elliott> "delete" is the program to delete all files in current directory
19:42:03 <elliott> "shutdown" restarts the system (will fail if you've deleted everything)
19:42:15 <Vorpal> elliott, delete in log made uplink segfault
19:42:30 <elliott> Oh god deletion is slow I am being traced.
19:43:36 <elliott> :D Can't connect to the test server any more.
19:44:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So, re: that loans from every bank thing.
19:44:17 <elliott> Would it... actually work?
19:44:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: How do you find a list of banks, anyway?
19:45:03 <elliott> Bleh, there are so many of them.
19:45:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It doesn't even need tracing when you take out the loans, does it?
19:45:27 <elliott> That is, no proxying is required.
19:45:33 <elliott> ...What, hacking into banks?
19:45:40 <Vorpal> elliott, this... http://lparchive.org/Uplink/Update%207/ makes no sense
19:45:45 <elliott> Vorpal: Not that far yet bro
19:46:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Just take out the maximum loan, right?
19:46:12 <elliott> They don't offer you much though...
19:46:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, the Protovision games server gives a wargames thing that's much like Defcon.
19:47:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes but check the login-window there, windows style
19:47:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, where did it come from
19:47:42 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, it is not from uplink is it?
19:47:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "Max loan: 0c"
19:47:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: why is beta corp jerks?
19:48:25 <elliott> I think it's going to be like this for everything.
19:48:56 <elliott> Arunmor Access TerminalX I should connect to thatX
19:49:03 <Vorpal> http://lparchive.org/Uplink/Update%207/7-005.jpg <-- I'm certain that introversion made a game based on this
19:49:08 <Vorpal> wasn't it called defcon?
19:49:17 <elliott> That is probably a screenshot.
19:49:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so not from the in-game war game interface?
19:50:48 <elliott> NEVER search for Google on Google. You could break the internet.
19:51:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: BTW, in logs I told you that [Four] on Demand has tons of IT Crowd for free.
19:51:50 <elliott> Better quality than YouTube too, I think.
19:52:37 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, incidentally, connect to the Andromeda Access Terminal.
19:53:04 <elliott> Oh I have _read_ this before.
19:53:30 <elliott> It says it's March two-thousand-and-ten.
19:53:33 <elliott> Uplink is now officially set in the past.
19:54:13 <olsner> apparently 4 on demand is not available in my area
19:54:23 <elliott> olsner: Phantom_Hoover is British like me :P
19:54:33 <ais523> olsner: and what is your area? if not the UK, that's not surprising
19:56:35 <olsner> ais523: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y463g76MFRw#t=35s
19:57:05 <elliott> Vorpal: I like how connecting to a down IP is a four-oh-four.
20:00:15 <Vorpal> elliott, oh I haven't tried that
20:00:30 <elliott> Vorpal: Connect to the Uplink Test Machine, open the console, cd sys; delete; shutdown (one per line).
20:00:35 <elliott> Wait for it to sever the connection.
20:00:40 <elliott> Tada, instant four-oh-four for the rest of the game.
20:01:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Dictionary hacker, password breaker, trace tracker. What else should I buy?
20:03:56 <elliott> Vorpal: Unnecessary. Console can do it quicker.
20:04:10 <Vorpal> elliott, dict hacker isn't that needed afaik. password breaker can do the job
20:04:19 <Vorpal> elliott, HUD_connection_whatever
20:04:46 <elliott> A newer trace tracker would be a good idea, but I just foolishly bought an older version.
20:05:13 <elliott> So I have password breaker one and trace tracker two.
20:05:17 <elliott> Anything else for stupidity?
20:05:29 <Vorpal> elliott, hm. what rating?
20:05:31 <elliott> Firewall things? Proxy disable?
20:05:53 <Vorpal> elliott, hm not much other then. You won't be able to take fancy tasks yet
20:06:07 <elliott> I plan to use Nonsense to do so.
20:06:11 -!- Fuco has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:06:22 <Vorpal> elliott, oh not doing missions?
20:06:22 <elliott> Which means: PROXY THROUGH EVERYTHING. DO THE STUPIDEST THING POSSIBLE AT ANY GIVEN MOMENT.
20:06:33 <elliott> I WILL DO THEM UNCONVENTIONALLY
20:06:50 -!- Fuco has joined.
20:06:57 <Vorpal> elliott, a lot of the _bypass ones need the too expensive HUD one
20:07:11 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway I'd go for faster hardware when you have the money.
20:07:19 <elliott> Firewall_Disable is detected immediately so sounds lame.
20:07:26 <elliott> Vorpal: I plan to get all money by robbing banks.
20:07:34 <Vorpal> elliott, haven't tried that
20:07:41 <Vorpal> no clue what you need for it
20:07:46 <elliott> Ooh, I can afford a one hundred ghz processor.
20:08:01 <Vorpal> elliott, only? I have 8 200 GHZ Turbo ones!
20:08:06 <Vorpal> I have the fanciest system now.
20:08:32 <Vorpal> elliott, yes because I'm trying to debug things. I have a legit game too
20:08:55 <elliott> I managed to get zero balance.
20:09:01 <elliott> But now I'm clicking decrease loan and have negative balance.
20:09:04 <elliott> And can't click increase loan again.
20:09:17 <elliott> Oh well, now I'm in massive debt. Who cares?
20:09:17 <Vorpal> I think I heard about such a bug
20:09:29 <elliott> Oh, I can increase it again.
20:09:53 <elliott> Now to use the forces of Ridiculousness to hack the Uplink bank.
20:10:11 <elliott> Can't I just proxy in, make a shell account, get a ridiculous loan, and transfer it to my account?
20:10:41 <Vorpal> elliott, you need to bypass the level 4 or whatever proxy it has
20:10:47 <Vorpal> elliott, I could analyse it with the HUD for you
20:10:55 <elliott> I just mean, proxy through a bunch of machines.
20:10:59 <elliott> Or will it trace them? I can use more than four.
20:11:10 <Vorpal> elliott, oh right. The proxy of the machine will stop editing
20:11:20 <Vorpal> elliott, that is what proxy_disable is about
20:11:24 <elliott> I just mean, take out a new loan.
20:11:45 <Vorpal> elliott, you will get "permission denied". Banks have good security afaik
20:11:54 <elliott> So Proxy_Disable will work?
20:12:35 <Vorpal> elliott, if high enough version, Proxy_bypass is better.
20:12:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Proxy and monitor on the connection; the proxy only matters if you want to cover your tracks, the monitor will prevent a trace if bypassed.
20:13:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Password, voice print and elliptic curve cypher on admin account; you'll need this to cover your tracks.
20:13:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Banks have really fast log traces, so see to that immediately after disconnecting.
20:13:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'm not trying to hack into the admin account.
20:14:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'm trying to create a shell account, take out the largest loan, then transfer the money to my normal account, and abandon that shell account.
20:14:29 <Vorpal> uplink bank has proxy level 5
20:15:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So what are the obstacles here?
20:15:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I thought proxies were about preventing editing records?
20:15:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, or is that firewalls?
20:15:44 <elliott> By proxy, I just mean CONNECTING VIA OTHER MACHINES
20:20:10 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:20:53 -!- elliott has joined.
20:21:11 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, you can't take out bank accounts without them being yours.
20:21:42 <Phantom_Hoover> I just accept a mission that involves tracking a very large transfer, then stealing it.
20:21:51 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, you can't take out bank accounts without them being yours.
20:21:59 <elliott> I can _transfer my loan_ willingly.
20:24:13 <Vorpal> listen to what Phantom_Hoover said. He knows what he is talking about
20:24:22 <elliott> Vorpal: Sorry for requesting clarification
20:24:38 <elliott> I am trying to make sure that PH _knows_ what I mean, and find out _why_ it won't work
20:25:04 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:25:24 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
20:25:57 <Vorpal> elliott, because of "that would be a game breaker"
20:26:06 <elliott> Vorpal: No, I mean why it doesn't _technically_ work.
20:26:25 <elliott> i.e. Do banks, code-wise, just have a magic oracle function that lets them know it's me connecting?
20:26:43 <elliott> Vorpal: I did. You chastised me.
20:27:09 <Vorpal> elliott, no you made a statement to the effect of Phantom_Hoover being wrong.
20:27:20 <elliott> No, I was trying to clarify.
20:28:20 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services).
20:28:24 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:28:38 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined.
20:28:45 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:29:03 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
20:29:04 <Vorpal> wait a second... "Darwin Research Associates"
20:29:14 <Vorpal> isn't that the fictional company in Darwinia?
20:29:33 <Vorpal> elliott, it would fit so well with the plot too
20:29:41 <Vorpal> digital life forms and so on
20:29:45 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314.
20:29:55 <elliott> I'm really looking forward to Subversion, even if I, like everybody on the planet, has no idea what it even is.
20:30:00 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:31:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Could you answer my question?
20:31:12 <Vorpal> argh can't find it in darwinia, it is in the first time start up movie intro iirc
20:31:25 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well, aren't loans proportional to your balance?
20:31:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Hmm. Yes. But consider this.
20:31:52 <elliott> - With your main account, take out the largest loan.
20:31:58 <elliott> - Transfer half of it to a new shell account A.
20:32:08 <elliott> - A takes out maximum loan.
20:32:14 <elliott> - A transfers half of balance to new shell account B.
20:32:26 <elliott> - All shell accounts transfer whole balance to main account.
20:32:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, you'd get a bit of cash from it, but not that much.
20:32:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Um, you can get _indefinite_ cash.
20:33:14 <elliott> MY NUMBER KEYS ARE BROKEN OKAY
20:36:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Am I wrong, wouldn't it get infinite cash?
20:36:10 <elliott> If you can take out only (balance+one) as a loan, you can get as much cash as you have time.
20:37:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Then you can get even moar cash.
20:37:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: UNLESS, as Vorpal says, you can only ever have one account on one bank, no matter how you cover your tracks.
20:38:04 <elliott> Which would be STUPID, but I suppose is possible.
20:38:23 <Vorpal> elliott, I didn't say that
20:38:27 <elliott> Or if it's considered illegal to have money that came from defaulted loans.
20:38:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: TUNNEL THROUGH MORE BANKS
20:39:11 <Vorpal> elliott, I said that to edit it, you would need advanced disabling software
20:39:33 <elliott> When did I say I wanted to edit anything?
20:39:44 <Vorpal> elliott, admin and edit records kind of stuff
20:39:45 <elliott> "At the height of my wealth, I was worth a whopping 20,000 credits. To see over three-quarters of a million in one account was a humbling experience. Some day, soon, I would be in that position too."
20:39:54 <Vorpal> elliott, you could try your luck on the stock market
20:39:55 <elliott> Vorpal: There are exactly three actions involved in the process:
20:40:10 <elliott> <elliott> - With your main account, take out the largest loan.
20:40:10 <elliott> <elliott> - Transfer half of it to a new shell account A.
20:40:10 <elliott> <elliott> - A takes out maximum loan.
20:40:10 <elliott> <elliott> - A transfers half of balance to new shell account B.
20:40:12 <elliott> <elliott> - All shell accounts transfer whole balance to main account.
20:40:21 <Vorpal> elliott, not sure. Might work. Might not
20:40:26 <elliott> In fact, don't even transfer half of balance.
20:40:49 <Vorpal> elliott, how will you erase the tracks of that transaction?
20:40:58 <elliott> Vorpal: Which transaction? The last one?
20:41:09 <Vorpal> elliott, the ones to your account yes
20:41:14 <elliott> Vorpal: Why do you need to?
20:41:21 <elliott> It is not illegal to have funds from someone who got arrested from defaulting on their loan.
20:41:32 <elliott> And in fact, with my revised plan -- transfer ALL the money -- _you_ only receive cash from one person.
20:41:37 <elliott> And you give it to someone else entirely, to start with.
20:41:44 <elliott> And if you erase the logs of your proxy accounts, you are untraceable.
20:42:22 <Vorpal> <elliott> It is not illegal to have funds from someone who got arrested from defaulting on their loan. <-- who. You would need to hack that account.
20:42:33 <Vorpal> otherwise it would still be your account
20:42:39 <elliott> __All the accounts are created by you.__
20:42:47 <elliott> They don't _know_ all the accounts are yours because YOU PROXY.
20:42:48 <Vorpal> elliott, so the one arrested would be you
20:43:04 <Vorpal> elliott, "<elliott> It is not illegal to have funds from someone who got arrested from defaulting on their loan."
20:43:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: They're logged as being done by somebody UNTRACEABLE.
20:43:28 <elliott> It is not illegal to give money to someone who defaults on their loan. It is not illegal to receive money from someone who defaults on their loan.
20:43:39 <elliott> Everything done by you is either perfectly legal (those two actions), or NOT TRACEABLE BACK TO YOU.
20:44:21 <olsner> I think they can assume you're the only one playing the game at that time - if anything gets hacked anywhere it's obviously you who did it :)
20:44:47 <elliott> olsner: Uplink isn't based around that principle, though.
20:44:53 <elliott> Otherwise you'd get traced instantly by everyone.
20:45:01 <elliott> That would not be much of a game.
20:45:35 <elliott> olsner: But they do have news reports of random hacks happening... dunno if that is reflected in the actual server contents though :)
20:45:44 <olsner> unless you make it a massively multiplayer hacking game... oh wait, that'd just be The Internet
20:45:53 <elliott> networked Uplink would be great fun
20:48:25 <elliott> fizzie: How long do I gotta read this LP before the different side of ARC appears :P
20:48:52 <elliott> Apart from these... machine change scenes.
20:49:10 <elliott> I suppose this guy is hallucinating this entire Uplink thing or something.
20:55:57 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I've been asked to steal files from empty servers before, so it does simulate other hackers to some degree.
20:56:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Do you think my bank trick would work?
20:56:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You should have a go at it; you're better at the game and have better tools than me.
20:56:55 <elliott> If it _does_ work, you can get as much money as you want, limited only by your patience.
20:58:04 -!- pikhq has joined.
20:58:34 * pikhq wonders how easy it is to use Kconfig outside of Linux
20:58:42 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:58:53 <elliott> pikhq: BusyBox does it. Or do you mean, like, on Windows?
20:59:01 <elliott> gittup also uses it for full system configuration :)
20:59:09 <pikhq> Gregor: Hence why I say "easy", not "possible".
20:59:21 <pikhq> I know it's possible. I just wonder if it's fucking annoying to do so.
20:59:31 <elliott> pikhq: Well, Kconfig files are pretty simple.
20:59:41 <elliott> And the output format is, too.
20:59:53 <pikhq> And it should integrate nicely with, say, Tup.
20:59:56 <elliott> pikhq: Mind you, I find Kconfig quite distasteful to use...
21:00:08 <elliott> It works for things like Linux or BusyBox with five thousand configuration options.
21:00:15 <elliott> But if there's fewer, a plain text file is nicer.
21:00:47 <Gregor> Yeah, Kconfig is mostly useful where the number of configuration options rivals the number of grains of sand in the Sahara.
21:00:50 <elliott> Gregor: btw tup has that auto-build-when-a-file-changes thing. Unfortunately it's built in to the monitor which unconditionally daemonises, but I've sent off a message to the mailing list about getting that fixed.
21:00:53 <pikhq> Yeah, kconfig *seems* like the option of choice only if you have a very configurable thing.
21:01:08 <elliott> "Ok, I added a '-f' option to the monitor so it will run in the
21:01:09 <elliott> foreground. Run as 'tup monitor -f' (currently only in the master
21:01:09 <elliott> branch). You can kill it with ctrl-C in the monitor terminal, or by
21:01:09 <elliott> running 'tup stop' in another terminal."
21:01:12 <elliott> Gregor: OK, it has exactly what you wanted :P
21:01:33 <elliott> [dollar] tup config autoupdate [one]
21:01:42 <elliott> (rebuilds whenever a file changes)
21:01:47 <Gregor> Exactly what I wanted was for gmake to do it <trollface/>
21:02:03 <elliott> Gregor: Well, there's been work wrt making tup be able to trace gmake properly :)
21:02:06 <elliott> With variable output files.
21:02:19 <elliott> Gregor: But pah, you want to use tup anyway :P
21:02:21 <elliott> The arrows go upwardsXXXXX
21:02:31 <pikhq> Gregor: Tup > Make, it seems.
21:02:39 <Gregor> I'mma wait 'til your silly obsessions end to determine how good it actually is.
21:02:47 <elliott> Gregor: Actually I've known about tup for months.
21:02:53 <elliott> Gregor: It's just that pikhq went all advocatin' redo :P
21:03:03 <elliott> And I looked into redo at the same time as tup, and tup is incomprehensibly better than both redo and make.
21:03:43 <pikhq> Gregor: Don't mind the "the arrows go upwards" bit, what's relevant is that it does its dependency checking by first looking for what files have changed and then checking what files need to be remade because of that.
21:03:58 <elliott> That IS the "arrows go upwards" bit :P
21:04:05 <elliott> But I'm sure Gregor is capable of reading the site and the paper.
21:04:18 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, but without elaborating it just sounds like "I CHANGED THE ARROWS. LAWL. EVERYTHING BETTER"
21:04:25 <elliott> THAT IS PRECISELY THE CASE.
21:05:54 <elliott> pikhq: BTW, Tup's Tupvars thing's file format is IIRC deliberately designed to be directly compatible with Kconfig.
21:06:02 <pikhq> elliott: Yuh, I know.
21:06:03 <elliott> i.e., Tup can literally use Kconfig output directly.
21:06:23 <pikhq> Which is how he got away with making busybox use Tup with ease. :P
21:06:39 <elliott> pikhq: What would be nice is something like configure that just outputted some tupvars. And didn't start witht he assumption that the C compiler and the libc were logically inconsistent and broken at a fundamentaly level :)
21:07:02 <pikhq> elliott: So, a very carefully designed autoconf setup.
21:07:25 <pikhq> Believe it or not, you *can* make autoconf start with the assumption that the compiler and libc are sane.
21:07:28 <elliott> pikhq: Or preferably something that isn't autoconf entirely.
21:07:45 <pikhq> Well, yes, I'm just saying autoconf *can* do something not retarded. :P
21:07:54 <pikhq> ... Aside from be in M4SH, of course.
21:08:18 * elliott look sat M4SH OH DEAR GOD this explains everything
21:08:51 <Gregor> HahaGET A NEW KEYBOARD
21:09:03 <pikhq> What, you didn't know? The entire GNU build system is written in M4SHM4Make.
21:09:24 <pikhq> Yes, the two layers of M4 are entirely intentional.
21:09:37 <elliott> Gregor: THIS ONE'S KINDA EXPENSIVE BRO
21:09:51 <pikhq> It is genuinely astounding that anyone manages to make that work.
21:09:52 <elliott> pikhq: Also: something must be built on tup and called either "perware" or "erware".
21:10:12 <Gregor> HahaGET A FIXED LAPTOP
21:10:21 <pikhq> elliott: Inquiry: would you consider bsnes something deserving of Kconfigisation?
21:10:37 <pikhq> elliott: I mean, contrary to the appearance, it has rather a lot of configuration.
21:10:46 <elliott> pikhq: Does it even have any settings apart from the profile...?
21:10:48 <pikhq> That's just buried.
21:11:00 <Gregor> elliott: Inquiry: Do you find prefacing questions with "Inquiry:" to be pointless pretension?
21:11:13 <elliott> pikhq: If it's like twenty, a plain file format is preferable.
21:11:21 <pikhq> You can actually select which version of chips are used individually...
21:11:30 <pikhq> The profiles are just preset choices of that.
21:11:45 <elliott> pikhq: You can certainly Kconfig-ise it, but I think only a madman would actually want to configure that deeply :P
21:11:56 <pikhq> You can also enable/disable each driver that's in the UI.
21:12:49 <pikhq> elliott: Actually, it's pretty useful to do so. If you use the compatibility PPU and performance everything else, you get a faster-than-compatibility bsnes with fewer graphics bugs.
21:13:02 <pikhq> Oh, yeah, there's also the multiple possible phoenix backends.
21:13:10 <elliott> pikhq: Maybe that should be a profile in itself.
21:13:59 <pikhq> And there's a few more configuration options that probably *would* be in there if there was a better configuration setup...
21:14:04 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Yahweasel.
21:14:24 <elliott> pikhq: Are you converting bsnes to tup, perchance? :P
21:14:25 <Yahweasel> Offending everyone: It's how I roll.
21:14:36 <pikhq> Gambatte vs. bgameboy, HLE vs. LLE for the DSPs, etc.
21:14:40 <pikhq> elliott: Considering it.
21:14:47 <elliott> * Nigger_Bitch_Ass :Erroneous Nickname
21:15:02 <Yahweasel> Offending some people: It's how I roll.
21:15:27 <Vorpal> elliott, how did your scam in uplink work out?
21:15:28 <elliott> Yahweasel: If I was black, and female, that nickname would be utterly unobjectionable.
21:15:44 <pikhq> Oh, and if you're crazy, you may wish to select libco implementations.
21:15:45 <elliott> Vorpal: I've delegated the running of it to Phantom_Hoover, who plays the game slightly more sanely than I and so has the necessary equipment and experience to actually pull it off.
21:16:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, did you try it?
21:16:26 <elliott> It's an involved operation.
21:16:31 <elliott> It would take hours to get an appreciable sum.
21:16:34 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed, that is why I didn't say "is it done yet"
21:16:46 <elliott> Technically you can do it almost as slowly as you want.
21:16:56 <elliott> As long as your latest account doesn't default on its lone, you can breathe.
21:17:18 <Vorpal> elliott, who do they think are connected to your other accounts then?
21:17:35 <elliott> Those accounts will be in massive debt with zero balance.
21:17:47 <elliott> But they won't be used again.
21:17:52 <pikhq> (lessee. One using UNIX signals, one using ucontext, one directly munging the stack on x86 UNIX. One using Win32 fibers and one directly munging the stack on Win32)
21:18:48 <Vorpal> pikhq, none using pthreads to simulate it?
21:19:06 <pikhq> Vorpal: Someone wrote it, but it's the most painful thing.
21:19:31 <pikhq> Vorpal: bsnes syncs between threads often enough that *ucontext* has obnoxious overhead.
21:19:41 <elliott> "I was going to hack Uplink itself."
21:19:42 <Vorpal> pikhq, so... what does it use?
21:20:06 <Vorpal> pikhq, so bsnes won't work on non-x86?
21:20:13 <elliott> <pikhq> (lessee. One using UNIX signals, one using ucontext, one directly munging the stack on x86 UNIX. One using Win32 fibers and one directly munging the stack on Win32)
21:20:49 <Vorpal> I thought the library in question.
21:20:49 <elliott> "Bingo. The personal information of every Uplink agent in the company. The level-7 fractal encryption on each of the large data files looked menacing, but chaos theory teaches us that fractals look exactly the same when magnified. I burned through the encryption and downloaded the lot."
21:20:57 <elliott> (at that fractal encryption)
21:20:58 <Vorpal> pikhq, so x86-64 builds are slower?
21:21:07 <elliott> xeightsix stack = xeightsix-sixtyfour stack
21:21:37 <Vorpal> elliott, what about the red zone, only x86-64 has it
21:21:58 <elliott> To a memcpy it's all the same.
21:22:20 <pikhq> Vorpal: It stack munging on x86, x86-64, and ppc presently.
21:22:30 <Vorpal> elliott, surely it would be more efficiently to change the stack pointer register instead?
21:23:14 <Vorpal> elliott, why, why not just switch stack by changing %rsp?
21:23:18 <pikhq> elliott: Why not just have multiple stacks in memory, and switch the stack pointer? :)
21:23:36 <elliott> That doesn't work for continuations, though.
21:23:38 <elliott> For those you need memcpy.
21:23:43 <Yahweasel> "chaos theory teaches us that fractals look exactly the same when magnified" <-- apparently this is chaos theory now.
21:23:52 <elliott> I've no experience with coroutine implementation, only continuations.
21:23:58 <Vorpal> elliott, maybe. But the overhead of memcpy would be silly
21:23:59 <elliott> Yahweasel: It's a joke, it's from an Uplink Let's Play :P
21:24:03 <elliott> Vorpal: What, for continuations?
21:24:13 <pikhq> Yeah, but libco is just doing coroutines, not full continuations.
21:24:13 <elliott> memcpy will take approximately zero instants.
21:24:16 <Vorpal> elliott, no for coroutines...
21:24:24 <elliott> But as I said, my experience is in continuations.
21:27:41 <elliott> lol [at] Revelation is only four gigaquads
21:30:09 <Sgeo_> There was a Revelation.exe on an Uplink fansite once. I daren't touch it
21:30:31 <elliott> yeah, someone made an actual virus and then released it to only uplink fanboys
21:30:34 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:30:37 <elliott> an effective method of distribution
21:31:03 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
21:31:17 <elliott> "The last thing I saw before slipping off into dreams was a ridge with a large stone monument in the shape of an elephant skull, the plaque nearby reading "Ever am I at war with the living; I have come to terms with the dead.""
21:31:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That actually in Scotland? :P
21:32:16 <tswett> I wonder if it's possible to construct a quantum pre-computer.
21:33:16 <tswett> Where you calculate a function by first doing a bunch of computation in order to create quantum state, and then you're given the inputs to a function, and the quantum state you've already created allows you to compute the function faster than you normally would be able to.
21:36:27 <tswett> If someone had a faster computer than you, they could create these quantum states and send them to you over the quantum Internet, and boom. You'd be able to use that stored-up computing power for a while.
21:37:05 <elliott> It sounds cool, dunno about feasibility though.
21:38:11 <tswett> Yeah. I wonder how it might work, it it might work. :P
21:40:41 <tswett> I suppose such a computer could consist of some input qubits, some output qubits, and a bunch of intermediate qubits, and a whole lot of entanglement.
21:41:07 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm gonna guess that that Darwin Research Associates email from the LP is fake or modded.
21:41:55 <tswett> Hm, but there's that one theorem stating that you can't transmit information just by observing your qubits.
21:42:36 <tswett> Imagine Alice has all the input qubits and Bob has all the output qubits. Nothing Alice does can give Bob useful information. Therefore, nothing you do to the input qubits, alone, can put useful information into the output qubits.
21:46:46 <elliott> pikhq: Oh wow, monitor -f with autoupdate works perfectly.
21:47:31 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:51:09 <pikhq> elliott: So. Should I try to Tupify bsnes?
21:51:21 <elliott> I doubt byuu will accept it into mainline.
21:51:57 <pikhq> Unless he wrote Tup. :P
21:54:20 <elliott> Clearly you must simply convince him to rewrite tup.
21:54:24 <elliott> Because what it needs is more C++.
22:01:31 -!- cheater99 has joined.
22:02:33 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:07:15 <elliott> "Damnit damnit damnit Faith, get OUT of my head! This scenario isn't even plausable"
22:25:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You mean what I suggested?
22:25:38 <Phantom_Hoover> No, I mean finding an account with 1e5-1e5 credits in it and stealing it.
22:25:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Are you gonna try my suggestion?
22:26:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Currently I have slightly over a million credits sitting in my Uplink account.
22:26:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Ooh... What's the maximum loan you can take out?
22:26:23 <elliott> If large, you could do my idea with ASTOUNDING efficiency.
22:27:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I bet other banks give you better rates.
22:27:27 <elliott> Transfer all your money to another one, and check there. :P
22:27:42 <elliott> (Let's put it this way: If my plan won't work, you'll know it from the very start. So it's risk-free.)
22:27:47 <elliott> (i.e. you won't be able to create another account.)
22:27:48 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't know, I was in a hurry to get it out of the original account since it was the one I set up on the hacked server.
22:28:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Gimme your save file and let me try :P
22:28:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Blaaar, you have to :|
22:29:08 <Phantom_Hoover> You have to *manually* type in the IP of the bank, the account name and the amount.
22:29:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Can't you paste in using windowed mode?
22:29:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Stop it, I want to go to the Uplink Internal Services server and buy stuff!
22:30:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Okay okay okay, but what if you just tried it with, say, two shell accounts?
22:30:08 <elliott> That would be a proof of concept and easy.
22:33:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It'd literally require it only four times.
22:34:05 <elliott> It takes a few seconds to type out an IP.
22:34:30 <tswett> What's this Uplink stuff that apparently can be hacked to yield some type of currency?
22:34:59 <elliott> A Hollywood hacking simulator. Indie game, two-thousand and one. Very good.
22:35:15 <elliott> Very deep world. Surprisingly realistic in parts -- well, as realistic as Hollywood hacking gets.
22:35:37 <elliott> Introversion software, same people as Darwinia and DEFCON.
22:36:32 <elliott> I'm currently trying to convince Phantom_Hoover to execute my tedious-but-profitable bank scheme idea. :p
22:38:58 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> It might be capped. <-- hm
22:39:05 <Vorpal> int maxcredit = thisint->account->loan + game->GetWorld ()->GetPlayer ()->rating.creditrating * 100;
22:39:07 -!- Agent_Hoover has joined.
22:39:18 <Vorpal> lets find creditrating
22:40:06 <Vorpal> TJ is going to cane Sega Rally! Merry Xmas!
22:40:53 <elliott> Vorpal: The in-game IRC client, presumably.
22:41:01 <elliott> Agent_Hoover: You know, I'm not sure the assumption that ARC are inherently anti-Internet is correct.
22:41:16 <elliott> Their mission statement expresses dismay at the demise of anonymity on the Internet and of its corporate takeover.
22:41:31 <Vorpal> elliott, isn't it limited to a specific IRC server?
22:41:34 <elliott> To be honest, ARC seem to be more closely-aligned to sanity than us.
22:41:36 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't believe so.
22:41:46 <elliott> To be honest, ARC seem to be more closely-aligned to sanity than Arunmor.
22:42:18 <Agent_Hoover> But their campaign is a bitch and the game ends if you manage to complete it, so...
22:42:24 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:42:51 <elliott> "We all agree that technology has gone too far, but cannot agree how to go about changing the march of science to reflect this." -- the LP
22:43:06 <elliott> I realise it deviates from the story somewhat, but still /shrug
22:43:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, from what I can tell multiple things affect your credit rating. 1) Current balance 2) Your uplink agent rating caps it to some degree 3) changing the loan seems to somehow affect it.
22:44:01 <Agent_Hoover> lthough come to think of it I'm nowhere near the start of the campaign (I haven't even had a single monthly payment yet).
22:44:09 <Sgeo_> Should I watch an Uplink LP, or actually play?
22:44:14 <Sgeo_> I think I'd prefer to watch
22:44:21 <Agent_Hoover> So I could trigger it early and help ARC restore free dome.
22:44:22 <elliott> http://lparchive.org/Uplink/
22:44:29 <elliott> It's the Yogscast of UplinkX
22:44:38 <Vorpal> Agent_Hoover, what, really?
22:44:42 <elliott> Agent_Hoover: _Please_ try out my bank trick first.
22:44:48 <elliott> It's only FOUR typings of an IP address.
22:44:52 * Sgeo_ hits elliott with a bang
22:45:27 <elliott> Agent_Hoover: But... do it on another bank.
22:45:33 <elliott> That Uplink bank loan limit is crappy.
22:45:56 <elliott> Agent_Hoover: BTW, obviously you'll want to proxy up for all the shell account business. BUT
22:45:57 <Vorpal> Agent_Hoover, elliott, note that uplink bank is unhackable. maybe
22:45:58 <Vorpal> Q: What is in the Uplink Bank/Government Mainframe?
22:45:58 <Vorpal> A: They are un-hackable. But even if somehow you did manage to get in, the Government Mainframe is empty, and the Uplink bank has but one account - yours. Sorry, you can't hack it.
22:46:16 <elliott> Agent_Hoover: OK, let me make a full step list.
22:46:29 <elliott> - Move your account to a nicer bank.
22:46:36 <Vorpal> Agent_Hoover, back up your ~/.uplink before you attempt elliott's zanny scheme
22:46:42 <elliott> - [Proxied] Connect to that same bank. Create a new throw-away account, but remember the password.
22:46:55 <elliott> - [UNPROXIED] Transfer all funds from your main account to that throw-away account.
22:46:59 <Agent_Hoover> ait, what happens if you have loans and no money?
22:47:03 <elliott> [Proxied] Connect to the bank. Create another throw-away.
22:47:17 <elliott> - [Proxied] Connect to the first throw-away. Fill up the loan to full. Transfer ALL funds to the second throw-away.
22:47:30 <elliott> - [Proxied] Connect to the second throw-away. Fill up the loan to full. Transfer ALL funds to your main account.
22:47:35 <elliott> Then clear your proxied trace.
22:47:49 <elliott> Agent_Hoover: "Shit", I would assume, but this will go too quickly for that to matter.
22:47:56 <Vorpal> elliott, banks trace passively fast. You will need to clear trace in between
22:48:14 <elliott> I assume Agent_Hoover is sane enough to know that.
22:48:19 <elliott> After all, he DID just do another bank heist.
22:48:37 <elliott> Agent_Hoover: Anyway, your profit will be two full loans' worth.
22:48:58 <Agent_Hoover> Hang on, I want to see what happens with a big loan and no money.
22:49:41 <elliott> Agent_Hoover: Don't do it on your main bank account
22:49:46 <elliott> Agent_Hoover: Anyway, wait.
22:49:48 <elliott> Agent_Hoover: MY HEIST TESTS THAT
22:49:50 <Vorpal> elliott, it actually seems to *add a feature*
22:49:55 <elliott> Agent_Hoover: Just log in to the first or second shell account after it's done.
22:50:01 <Vorpal> elliott, not just do something zanny
22:50:21 <Vorpal> elliott, something with banks. It is badly commented. Hasn't worked it out yet
22:50:30 <elliott> Agent_Hoover: So, just do my heist, THEN you can find out.
22:51:38 <Vorpal> /#defineDOCLABRELEASE // This version designed for DOC labs
22:51:39 <Vorpal> /#defineWAREZRELEASE // Purity Control
22:51:39 -!- Agent_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:51:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So GO FOR IT
22:52:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Wait, that's okay.
22:52:16 <Vorpal> elliott, your scheme falls to pieces
22:52:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Just decrease the loan to zero after transferring all money.
22:52:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You'll end up with negative money, but it doesn't matter, it's a shell account.
22:52:51 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> The limit is the same for all accounts. <-- I expected that based on what I pasted from the source above
22:53:30 <elliott> Vorpal: It _doesn't matter_.
22:53:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Doesn't matter, the limit stays at 0 for the other accounts.
22:53:35 <elliott> You can still pull it off.
22:53:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: _Decrease the loan to zero after sending the money_
22:53:56 <elliott> This will put the loan limit back at four thousand.
22:54:01 <elliott> And put you into negative money, but that is irrelevant.
22:54:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Furthermore, negative money doesn't seem to exist properly.
22:54:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ... OK, listen.
22:54:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You see the decrease loan button?
22:54:58 <elliott> If you press that enough, the global loan counter becomes zero.
22:55:04 <elliott> Disconnect, connect to the other account, note loan count is back to full.
22:55:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, OK. Is it global or just bank-specific?
22:55:38 <elliott> This still lets you profit one full loan without consequences, mind you.
22:55:40 <elliott> Even though that's not much.
22:55:40 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:55:55 <Vorpal> elliott, loan is per account as far as I can tell, but credit rating is global.
22:56:09 <elliott> Vorpal: I like how that makes NO SENSE AT ALL.
22:56:24 <Vorpal> elliott, actually it does?
22:56:36 <elliott> It makes sense iff you assume you're the only person in the universe.
22:56:47 <elliott> There is no way the banks know that the shell accounts are you.
22:56:52 <Vorpal> elliott, oh with global I meant tied to the player object
22:56:57 <elliott> So their actions decreasing your credit location is bullshit.
22:57:06 <elliott> Vorpal: The point is, YOU didn't default on your loan.
22:57:10 <elliott> SHELL ACCOUNT FORTY-TWO did.
22:57:18 <zzo38> There is so many bad quality of math render by webpage, so I invented a good quality one. Even, someone told me it is better quality once they did it.
22:57:18 <elliott> You removed all traces so _the banks do not know it is you_.
22:57:25 <elliott> So it is NONSENSE that that decreases your credit rating.
22:57:25 <Vorpal> elliott, see what Phantom_Hoover said
22:57:28 <Phantom_Hoover> So it's plausible that for banks at least you have to declare it's you.
22:57:31 <elliott> Vorpal: I REALISE HOW IT WORKS CODE-WISE
22:57:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Err, servers don't know that they're on my favourites list.
22:57:45 <Vorpal> elliott, meaning that while your scheme seems nice it won't work
22:57:53 <zzo38> I do not understand how credit-ratings work, but I have no credit card, so I do not use them.
22:57:54 <elliott> Vorpal: I've already admitted it won't work, please shut up.
22:57:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Same with hacked transfers; doesn't matter how anonymously you made the recipient account, you're still caught for it.
22:58:02 <elliott> Right now I'm just saying that the design of Uplink in this area is stupid.
22:58:10 <elliott> It avoids game-breaking by being completely illogical.
22:58:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Computers track data all the time; the fact that a global list of your accounts exists on your gateway doesn't mean the banks know about it.
22:58:36 <elliott> Also, yes, but logical and not game-breaking > both.
22:58:43 <elliott> Make banks insanely good at tracking if you try that, or something.
22:58:50 <Vorpal> ramp up bank security to 11 maybe
22:58:52 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, it's plausible that in Uplinkland some form of more concrete ID is needed for bank accounts.
22:58:58 <Vorpal> by the time you can do it, it is no longer worth it
22:59:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That should be explicit, then.
22:59:25 <elliott> Vorpal: Probably the best idea. It makes sense in the insanely corporatist world of Uplink that banks have crazy good security.
22:59:36 <elliott> Besides, with the loan limit it'd be so tedious anyway :)
22:59:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'm saying that they _should_.
22:59:59 <elliott> To fix this exploit while keeping logical.
23:00:11 <Vorpal> the concrete ID would work too
23:00:18 <Vorpal> and not require reworking lots of missions
23:00:30 <Phantom_Hoover> The admin section is extremely well-protected, but the transfer logs aren't kept there, they're kept in userland for some insane reason.
23:00:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, they still passive-trace utterly fast
23:01:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, not fast enough to stop you if you have a monitor bypass.
23:01:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well since save/load route is broken I need to debug that before I can enjoy uplink dev x86-64
23:01:56 <elliott> Vorpal: Absurd that you wouldn't be able to forge a concrete ID.
23:02:04 <elliott> Maybe there should be people offering that, but it costs insane amounts of money.
23:02:10 <Phantom_Hoover> AFAICT they only begin the trace when the transaction occurs, which means that unless you take 2 minutes to make about 3 clicks you're entirely safe.
23:02:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, do you have a problem with system square on map not being rendered on the clickable area when zoomed in a lot?
23:02:41 <elliott> Vorpal: It would be reaaaally nice if you added two-times text scaling, it is so tiny :P
23:02:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I had the same in 1.54...
23:03:11 <Vorpal> elliott, nah works fine on my low res desktop monitor. And it sounds awkward to do it anyway
23:04:18 <Vorpal> elliott, a lot of code is pixel based in offsets
23:04:29 <elliott> Vorpal: OK fine just add an SDL scaling call of some sort.
23:04:36 <Vorpal> elliott, doesn't it use opengl?
23:04:54 <Vorpal> elliott, why then did I have to mess with gl calls when working on world map code?
23:05:09 <Vorpal> elliott, it uses sdl too yes
23:05:18 <elliott> WELL DO IT AT SDL LEVEL FIRST
23:05:35 <Vorpal> elliott, you can do it
23:05:42 <elliott> I lack the dev thing and your diff.
23:06:09 -!- Agent_Hoover has joined.
23:06:13 <Vorpal> elliott, well the dev you could get. My diff hm yes... well okay I could generate that. It would be vast. Due to EOL changes
23:06:15 -!- Fuco has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:06:27 <Agent_Hoover> SO ANYWAY I am at the point of kickstarting the campaign.
23:06:31 <Vorpal> because configure: bad interpreter #!/bin/sh^M sucks
23:06:31 -!- zzo38 has left.
23:06:39 <elliott> Agent_Hoover: Can you work for BOTH ARC and Arunmor?
23:06:46 <elliott> I know Arunmor try to convince you to switch to their team at a point.
23:06:51 <Vorpal> that would be a good trick
23:06:55 <elliott> I heartily suggest you try and unleash both Faith and Revelation yourself.
23:07:03 <Agent_Hoover> hould I be Comrade Hoover, cyberrevolutionary, or Captain Hoover, Defender of Truth, Justice and the American Way?
23:07:29 <elliott> Cyberrevolutionary Defender of Truth, Justice, the American Way, and blowing up the Internet while simultaneously stopping yourself from doing so.
23:07:30 <Agent_Hoover> Arunmor try that immediately after ARC offer you the first mission.
23:07:46 <elliott> Agent_Hoover: Basically, in that Let's Play, the player stole Revelation.
23:07:52 <elliott> Agent_Hoover: I suggest that you steal both Revelation AND Faith.
23:07:54 <elliott> And set them off simultaneously.
23:08:04 <elliott> If both ARC and Arunmor reject you somehow, that is EVEN BETTER
23:08:06 <Agent_Hoover> An early version of Revelation which doesn't spread.
23:08:19 <elliott> Agent_Hoover: No, he stole three point oh.
23:08:21 * Yahweasel is a better nick than anything matching the regex .*_Hoover
23:08:26 <elliott> Or that could have just been flavour text.
23:08:27 <Agent_Hoover> The virulent form is only obtainable in the last mission of the ARC campaign.
23:08:30 <Vorpal> elliott, yes when working for ARC
23:08:43 <elliott> Agent_Hoover: OK. Do the ARC campaign.
23:08:48 <elliott> Agent_Hoover: But steal Faith from Arunmor.
23:08:54 <elliott> And set them off simultaneously.
23:08:56 <elliott> Agent_Hoover: WILL THAT WORK
23:09:37 <Vorpal> Agent_Hoover, what about when arunmor tries to run it and you have to combat it?
23:09:54 <Vorpal> Agent_Hoover, I think both sides are insane
23:10:01 <elliott> Vorpal: What's the sane thing?
23:10:08 <Vorpal> Agent_Hoover, what happens when you complete arunmor? Does the game end?
23:10:27 <elliott> ARC are obviously more "shady". But I think the result of the ARC campaign is superior to the result of the Arunmor campaign.
23:10:39 <elliott> Especially if it teaches everyone a lesson in computer security :D
23:10:51 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/oTLBn.png
23:10:54 <Vorpal> elliott, what happens if you don't join either side?
23:11:00 <elliott> KKK: "Dammit, stop it with this libel, we're not associated with WestboroX"
23:11:04 <elliott> KKK: "YOU'RE TRYING TO TARNISH OUR GOOD NAME"
23:11:09 <elliott> Vorpal: I forget; ask PH :P
23:11:17 <Agent_Hoover> ALSO I'M TRYING A LAN HACK SO I WON'T BE RESPONSIVE FOR A BIT
23:11:36 <Vorpal> Agent_Hoover, there is a pause button
23:11:39 <Agent_Hoover> If you don't join either events play out as they do in the Arunmor campaign.
23:12:54 <Agent_Hoover> ...OK this LAN has the target server right next to the entrance.
23:15:52 -!- augur has joined.
23:16:21 <elliott> Vorpal: BTW, though SKI works in C++, infinite loops don't seem to.
23:16:26 <elliott> I think there's a recursion limit of some sort.
23:16:33 <elliott> That is never explicitly shown.
23:16:53 <elliott> Oh wow, my foreach in C++ is insane.
23:17:26 <elliott> Vorpal: pikhq: BEHOLD: http://sprunge.us/GRgd
23:19:23 -!- Agent_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
23:21:30 -!- Agent_Hoover has joined.
23:22:07 <elliott> Agent_Hoover: HELLO USER UPLINK
23:22:20 <elliott> STATE TETRAQUAD NAME AND VIEW-ADDRESS OF ALLIANCE
23:23:46 <elliott> [ VORPAL ] VIOLATION OF PROTOCOL 9/9909 NOTICED. PLEASE REMOVE GANTIAN MATRIX FROM HOLDER AND REPEAT CONFESSION.
23:24:20 <Sgeo_> Dammit I can be so stupid
23:24:37 <elliott> Sgeo_: You are always so stupid.
23:24:43 <Sgeo_> Left ear starts working again. I poke ear with finger. Ear proceeds to stop working again.
23:25:51 -!- Agent_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:25:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:27:45 <pikhq> Sgeo_: You may wish to get that looked into.
23:30:03 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:30:03 <Sgeo_> pikhq, I don't _think_ it's dangerous
23:30:30 <Sgeo_> Also, not "completely stopped working". Just... quieter
23:30:49 <elliott> Does Sgeo_ really not know what to call ears popping?
23:31:02 -!- wareya has joined.
23:31:18 <Sgeo_> elliott, do ears stay popped for extended periods of time?
23:31:41 <elliott> BUT WAIT, ACCORDING TO THE DAILY FAIL, YOU ARE GOING DEAF: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1211815/Dont-ignore-ears-popping--mean-youre-deaf.html
23:31:53 * elliott eagerly waits for Sgeo_ to take the article at face value.
23:32:46 <pikhq> elliott: According to the Daily Fail, HURP DURP DE DERP
23:33:01 <elliott> According to the Daily Fail, CANCER CURES CANCER
23:33:04 <olsner> I think there are easier ways to determine whether you are deaf
23:33:17 <elliott> olsner: haha, that url is perfect :D
23:33:22 <Sgeo_> elliott, how do I unpop an ear?
23:33:35 <elliott> Sgeo_: I'm sorry, I can't talk to you, it's just really bad for my faith in humanity.
23:33:53 <pikhq> Isn't it obvious? You drain the pop out.
23:34:22 <olsner> a popped ear minus the pop is a healthy ear
23:34:52 <pikhq> Perhaps you should stop swimming in Coke in the future, BTW. That's the leading cause of popped ears, y'know.
23:35:42 <Sgeo_> My ear is now somewhere between fully functioning and what I've come to accept as normal
23:38:02 <elliott> pikhq: BTW, you might want to hold off tupising bsnes until something comes out of the variants discussion at http://groups.google.com/group/tup-users/browse_thread/thread/d995f2edb1d6fa/5e53332b354db20f.
23:39:08 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah. I'd read the thread.
23:39:58 <pikhq> Not quite sure I'm seeing the relevance
23:40:46 <elliott> mkdir build-foo && cd build-foo
23:40:46 <elliott> ../configure --lots-of-options --specific-to-this --variant # Writes a
23:40:46 <elliott> "config.h" and some variables for Tup.
23:40:46 <elliott> tup upd # all build output goes below the current directory
23:40:47 <elliott> This allows an arbitrary number of variants to coexist, with options as
23:40:49 <elliott> defined by the user, and leaves the source directory pristine which makes it
23:40:51 <elliott> easy to blast it away when you no longer need it (just just delete
23:41:03 <elliott> pikhq: Basically the combination of Phoenix UI backend and all the fiddly switches would constitute one backend.
23:41:10 -!- lauanana has joined.
23:41:15 <elliott> pikhq: And you'd want predefined variants for {performance,compatibility,accuracy}-{qt,gtk,...}.
23:42:27 -!- lauanana has quit (Client Quit).
23:44:45 * pikhq is somewhat annoyed that there is nothing actually good at automatic configuration of things.
23:45:45 <pikhq> It should *not* be hard to just go "I want a C99 compiler and the following libraries. Get cracking."
23:45:53 <elliott> pikhq: Do you mean "automatically finding out how to compile a program on this system" or "user configuration of software compilation and features"?
23:46:08 <elliott> pikhq: Well, let's put it this way... on Unix, you can pretty much rely on pkg-config.
23:46:15 <pikhq> Though fortunately it's gotten a lot better, courtesy of pkg-config.
23:46:20 <elliott> Sure, zlib and some other things don't have common pkg-config entries yet, but 90 percent of the time...
23:46:30 <pikhq> And the homogenisation of Unix.
23:46:57 <elliott> pikhq: As far as C compilers go, I'd just try a short fixed list of compilers (say, cc gcc clang tcc pcc) or whatever.
23:47:13 -!- cheater00 has joined.
23:47:19 <elliott> Really, the vast majority of what autoconf does is busywork these days, for all common systems.
23:47:34 <elliott> And with uncommon systems, for most programs, it's perfectly OK if the user just has to say "oh, my CC is called wrt-og-cc".
23:47:39 <pikhq> You can at least do "cc foo.c bar.c -o foo `pkg-config --cflags --libs foo bar baz`" and you're 3/4ths there.
23:47:41 <elliott> (For programs that require tons of libraries and shit, this is less acceptable.)
23:48:54 <pikhq> You are definitely right that autoconf has gotten to be a lot of overkill.
23:49:17 <elliott> Mind you, I doubt you've ever compiled anything on HP-UX, and I bet Gregor has :P
23:49:34 <pikhq> I mean, how often are you going to be building on a system that doesn't have a reasonable chunk of POSIX?
23:49:39 <elliott> But surely even HP-UX has pkg-config now [WISHFUL THINKING]
23:49:50 <elliott> pikhq: tup runs on Windows. :p
23:49:55 <pikhq> Oh, right, the *other* platform.
23:50:02 <Yahweasel> elliott: I doubt that it ships with it, but it might.
23:50:21 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:50:41 <pikhq> Yahweasel: Well, it is used by just about every notable library past libc and zlib. :P
23:50:47 <elliott> ?bf +++++what is a caret++++++++++.
23:50:49 <elliott> ?bf +++++what is a caret++++++++++++.
23:51:10 <fungot> `1234567890-=~!@#$%^&*()_+
23:51:14 <elliott> i actually meant the digit one
23:51:14 <Yahweasel> pikhq: HP-UX isn't big on having notable libraries in it :P
23:51:16 <elliott> but that works too thank you :D
23:51:29 <pikhq> Yahweasel: Does it have GTK?
23:51:53 <pikhq> It may not have zlib. :P
23:52:27 <Yahweasel> Note that I haven't used HP-UX in a good long while, so it's possible (read: highly unlikely) that it's improved.
23:52:34 <pikhq> ... Wait, HP-UX is still *maintained*? What. The. Fuck.
23:52:36 <Sgeo_> elliott, write a bot that doesn't require ^
23:53:06 <pikhq> I though Solaris was the only traditional commercial Unix still around.
23:53:18 <elliott> pikhq: It even supports IPvSixX
23:54:29 <pikhq> Why would *anyone* decide in this day and age to use a proprietary Unix?
23:55:04 <pikhq> Okay, I can kinda get Solaris, though Oracle seems to be wanting to kill that off as well.
23:56:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
23:56:03 <elliott> "Error: Circular dependency found among Tupfiles (last dir ID 13 =
23:56:03 <elliott> [...]At first, this is not madness, I know what I want to do, and it was ok
23:56:04 <elliott> Could TUP be a little more politically correct?"
23:56:14 <pikhq> Okay, HP-UX ships with OpenSSL. It has pkg-config.
23:56:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover what are the haps
23:56:25 <elliott> pikhq: I find that logic wanting.
23:57:04 <pikhq> It damned well better have it. Otherwise it is shipping with software older than elliott. :P
23:57:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Hacked someone's mainframe. Nothing there by the time I was finished with it
23:57:22 <elliott> pikhq: Uhh, it could just use OpenSSL but not install the pkg-config files.
23:57:30 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, fuck, it could.
23:57:50 <elliott> After all, autoconf-based stuff still works without pkg-config files.
23:57:51 <Yahweasel> Or it could install the pkg-config files but not pkg-config itself :P
23:57:54 <elliott> And that is all the stuffs.
23:58:55 <pikhq> elliott: Actually, only checking with pkg-config is the preferred way of doing autoconf checks for libraries now, I thought.
23:59:20 <elliott> Well, preferred autoconf practice X= done autoconf practice.
23:59:21 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).