00:00:17 <tswett> !slashes /%/ZOMG A COMMENT!/Hello, world!
00:00:40 <oerjan> yes, that syntax is useful _outside_ substitutions
00:00:54 <oerjan> (also to delete data in general)
00:02:12 <oerjan> but in a program with looping, most of the program code will be quoted inside a large /P0/.../ substitution, so that method cannot be used directly.
00:02:20 <tswett> !slashes /, world!, world!/Hello\/%\/ZOMG A COMMENT?\//, world!, world!, world!
00:02:23 <tswett> oerjan: I see. Kind of.
00:02:57 <tswett> My way is better because I don't fully understand the benefits of your way. :P
00:03:10 <oerjan> yes you can do that but then the comment would have to be quoted and copied around each iteration, and you have to note how many nesting levels of quoting/escaping deep you are
00:03:27 -!- zzo38 has joined.
00:03:58 <oerjan> while the method i showed will have the comments removed at the first copying
00:04:53 -!- zzo38 has set topic: ouer heaerts go out to htose in the recent nfunctionslkaj disotasietr whenjk jtwentyfurou don stewrarts losjot theries liveseils to fsharppe | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
00:05:23 <oerjan> the benefit is that you can put comments anywhere inside the main loop with only minimal care or cost.
00:08:25 <zzo38> The reason for removing the quotations about programming is to make the logs URLs to fit. Those were less recent than the text at the beginning, which is why I retained the text at the beginning ("ouer heaerts go...")
00:10:43 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
00:11:39 -!- elliott_ has joined.
00:11:44 <elliott_> <oerjan> ...is _plenty_ usable
00:11:57 <elliott_> oerjan has finally found his favourite language
00:12:04 <elliott_> <oerjan> with the deadfish interpreter i even managed to indent without extra [] around the lines _and_ still have the program print spaces and newlines
00:12:07 <elliott_> how, replacing " " or similar?
00:13:28 <micahjohnston> !slashes /\/\/\//|0//**/*0*//*0/0#//0##/#0//0#/1//|0/|//|/////***
00:13:39 <oerjan> so single spaces without preceding \n were preserved, as well as all but the last \n before space
00:13:44 <elliott_> oerjan: are you /sure/ itwlifjitjisjifisjfjsi is IO-complete?
00:13:53 <elliott_> it seems like there might be some things you cannot do with raw data in slashes
00:14:03 <elliott_> requiring some kind of e.g. character after each byte
00:14:11 <oerjan> note that it reads one character at a time
00:14:16 <elliott_> micahjohnston: did you write that?
00:14:31 <micahjohnston> I've been thinking about how to convert unary to binary all day at school
00:14:38 <elliott_> those slashes at the end are insane
00:14:38 <oerjan> which gives you plenty of room to manipulate it
00:14:51 <elliott_> !slashes /\/\/\//|0//**/*0*//*0/0#//0##/#0//0#/1//|0/|//|///////*//********
00:14:55 <micahjohnston> !slashes /\/\/\//|0//**/*0*//*0/0*//*/#//0##/#0//0#/1//|0/|//|/////***
00:15:00 <micahjohnston> !slashes /\/\/\//|0//**/*0*//*0/0*//*/#//0##/#0//0#/1//|0/|//|/////****
00:15:04 <micahjohnston> !slashes /\/\/\//|0//**/*0*//*0/0*//*/#//0##/#0//0#/1//|0/|//|/////*
00:15:12 <elliott_> doesn't oerjan have such a routine in the deadfish interp though?
00:15:17 <elliott_> i guess there's no real routines with slashes :D
00:15:24 <elliott_> <oerjan> note that it reads one character at a time
00:15:47 <oerjan> elliott_: that's sort of essential, and one reason why thue IO is broken
00:15:48 <elliott_> I still wish it used a nicer delimiter than GG
00:16:04 <micahjohnston> I was paying more attention to slashes than tlaking
00:16:05 <elliott_> hmm, how do you detect EOF with itflab?
00:16:11 <elliott_> micahjohnston: tlaking is hrad
00:16:25 <oerjan> elliott_: i decided when implementing it that EOF gives an empty string
00:16:44 <oerjan> (had to make a choice, and that seemed the simplest)
00:17:12 <elliott_> oerjan: underload->ifjtiwjtjflabjsifsit compiler
00:18:33 <micahjohnston> !slashes /\/\/\//|0//**/*0*//*0/0*//*/#//0##/#0//0#/1//|0/|//|/////*
00:18:48 <micahjohnston> I must have some accidental code-as-data in there or something
00:20:00 <micahjohnston> !slashes /\/\/\//|0//**/*0*//*0/0*//*/#//0##/#0//0#/1//|0/|////*
00:20:08 <micahjohnston> !slashes /\/\/\//|0//**/*0*//*0/0*//*/#//0##/#0//0#/1////*
00:20:15 -!- Sgeo has joined.
00:21:24 <Sgeo> If I use Hashapass, and an attacker knows the parameter and resulting password, can they get at the master pasword?
00:21:36 <elliott_> Sgeo: if they can that would be the stupidest design ever
00:21:52 <elliott_> considering it's a HASH FUNCTION
00:22:48 <micahjohnston> !slashes /\/\/\/\//\/|0//**/*0*//*0/0#//0##/#0//0#/1//|0/|//|/////*
00:23:09 <micahjohnston> !slashes /\/\/\/\//\/|0//**/*0*//*0/0*//*/#//0##/#0//0#/1//|0/|//|/////*
00:23:22 <elliott_> oerjan: help the poor guy debug his code
00:29:02 <oerjan> !slashes /\/\/\/\/\//\/\/|0//**/*0*//*0/0#//0##/#0//0#/1//|0/|//|/////*
00:30:07 -!- Lymia has joined.
00:30:15 -!- Lymia has quit (Changing host).
00:30:15 -!- Lymia has joined.
00:32:08 <oerjan> !slashes /\/\/\/\/\//\/\/|0//**/*0*//*0/0*//*/#//0##/#0//0#/1//|0/|//|/////*
00:33:20 <micahjohnston> is there any clean way to make a sort of fsm with it?
00:33:35 <oerjan> why do you want those /// before the * anyway, makes it much harder
00:33:39 <micahjohnston> as in doing one substitution over and over, then switching to anotehr, then switching back, until neither work or something
00:34:22 <oerjan> you can put the substitutions you want in a main loop
00:34:25 <micahjohnston> !slashes /**/*0*//*0/0*//*/#//0##/#0//0#/1//|0/|//|//|0*
00:34:31 <micahjohnston> !slashes /**/*0*//*0/0*//*/#//0##/#0//0#/1//|0/|//|//|0****
00:34:45 <micahjohnston> I dunno, I was just trying to make only *'s after all the slashes
00:35:45 <oerjan> !slashes /\/\/\//\/\/|0//**/*0*//*0/0*//*/#//0##/#0//0#/1//|0/|//|///*
00:36:09 <oerjan> you need to make a self-replicating subprogram
00:38:25 <micahjohnston> I tried for a long time using a paper to make a quine or a self-replicating program
00:38:44 <oerjan> see http://esolangs.org/wiki/Slashes#Simpler_counter although my own style has changed a bit since that one
00:39:02 <oerjan> (i use . instead of | now, and <> without -)
00:39:23 <oerjan> because . is less noise
00:39:43 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:40:04 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deadfish#itflabtijtslwi is my latest creation
00:40:47 -!- Sgeo has joined.
00:40:57 <oerjan> the basic structure is /./<\\\\>\\\\\\/
00:42:54 <oerjan> then /P1/...quoted code...//P0/P1//<\>///P2/P1/...some initialization...P0
00:43:44 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
00:44:21 <oerjan> and in the quoted code somewhere similar commands except with P2 in the spot for the quoted code itself
00:45:25 <oerjan> the /P2/P1/ needs to be /P\2/P1/ in the quoted code
00:46:21 <oerjan> and /<\>/<\\\\>\\\\\\/ instead of the one with .
00:47:30 <oerjan> there is some trickery with where you need to quote with ., with \, and with both
00:48:28 <oerjan> i try to keep those separate notions
00:50:41 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:52:11 * oerjan wonders if the deadfish interpreter would have been more readable if he had used | as abbreviation for .\.
00:52:38 <micahjohnston> so the number of times you copy something is the number of times the escape slashes go away
00:53:11 <oerjan> yes, although it's exponential
00:53:13 <micahjohnston> so if you want to make a quine, just copy it one less time than the amount of times you escape everything
00:53:40 -!- olsner has joined.
01:06:07 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
01:06:20 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:06:47 -!- sebbu has joined.
01:06:48 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
01:06:48 -!- sebbu has joined.
01:09:06 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
01:09:06 -!- elliott_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
01:10:28 -!- elliott has joined.
01:10:34 <elliott> oerjan: btw I think | is nicer looking than .
01:11:30 <oerjan> um the idea is _not_ to separate, if you actually want to read the code you mostly need to be able to ignore the .'s...
01:13:44 <elliott> not that anyone can read it :D
01:13:56 <micahjohnston> elliott: how do you type a / at the beginning of a message?
01:14:00 <elliott> micahjohnston: two slashes
01:14:05 <elliott> oerjan: It's cool how you can change the escape character in ///
01:14:13 <elliott> micahjohnston: should work
01:14:49 <oerjan> (not a strongly held opinion)
01:18:26 <oerjan> elliott: anyway i chose . to get it as close to readable as reasonable
01:18:36 <elliott> oerjan: hm here's a thing... /X/\\X/
01:18:39 <elliott> makes a character self-escaping
01:19:12 <elliott> is it actually possible...
01:19:43 <oerjan> any substitution that replaces a character without context _must_ obliterate it from the program.
01:25:41 <zzo38> What would be the maximum possible length of a NSF music that does not repeat if it is played no slower than 120 notes per minute?
01:27:34 <zzo38> NSF is a file format that stores 6502 machine code and is played back using the NES/Famicom audio (including Famicom Disk System).
01:28:31 <oerjan> if it's actual machine code i'd expect it to do exponential processing...
01:28:54 <oerjan> like generating a thue-morse sequence, that is nonrepeating
01:29:17 <oerjan> you just need a big enough counter and some bit twiddling
01:29:55 <zzo38> It is but it is usually run using an emulator not an actual 6502 machine (although it could be). (Actually, there is one difference: The decimal mode does nothing, although it still exists.)
01:30:16 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes it could generate thue-morse sequence but not forever because it is limited by available RAM.
01:31:02 <oerjan> well i think you should be able to get a length of 256^(ram size - overhead)
01:31:29 <elliott> <zzo38> What would be the maximum possible length of a NSF music that does not repeat if it is played no slower than 120 notes per minute?
01:32:02 <oerjan> well i assumed that meant it's not just a repetition of a smaller block
01:32:10 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes probably it could.
01:33:10 <oerjan> and anything larger than 256^(ram size + something small) should be impossible
01:33:29 <oerjan> because it would reach a repeating state
01:40:44 <oerjan> poiuy_qwert is a nick, though
01:41:29 <oerjan> it's rather unlikely i should think
01:42:56 <oerjan> q at the end, w... maybe there is some strange language with a compatible spelling system
01:52:55 -!- augur has joined.
02:18:13 -!- pikhq has joined.
02:37:58 <tswett> Some guy in #haskell earlier today suggested a contest where people write programs that take a very long time to run, but it's not clear why.
02:37:59 <zzo38> And also, what do you damn?
02:38:23 <zzo38> tswett: I don't know either
02:39:17 <tswett> Programs that exploit stuff like cache misses and register overflows and parapneumonic effusions and similar obscure things.
02:39:26 <tswett> And yeah, I don't have a clue.
02:40:49 <zzo38> If you know the exact speed of the computer you are running on you might do so, maybe, if you need certain speeds
02:42:22 <pikhq> tswett: And, no doubt, fucking with the branch predictor.
02:44:09 -!- jack has joined.
02:44:35 -!- jack has changed nick to Guest42164.
02:45:39 -!- Guest42164 has left.
02:48:38 <elliott> that'd take some major fucking
02:48:44 <elliott> an unpredicted branch isn't _that_ slow
02:49:21 <tswett> True. But imagine a loop that's something like ten instructions long, and the branch predictor gets it wrong every time, wasting about another ten clock cycles...
02:49:32 <tswett> No, that wouldn't be that slow at all.
02:49:39 <oerjan> > (\x y -> x / y == 3 / 7) 3 7
02:49:41 <elliott> Yah, but it doesn't get you from "fast program" to "glacial program" :P
02:49:51 <elliott> oerjan: depends on the machine :)
02:50:03 <elliott> that existentialtype blog is starting to bug me with the anti-laziness crap
02:50:23 <elliott> I don't care if he's famous, or even if he's wrong, but it's quite smug
02:50:26 <oerjan> this was from ezyang's blog
02:50:34 <elliott> he links to a post by that guy at the bottom
02:51:52 <pikhq> elliott: Every bit adds up.
02:52:10 <elliott> pikhq: yes but it wont make a program run glacially that looks like it shouldn't
02:52:15 <elliott> to make it noticeable, you have to loop shitloads of times
02:52:19 <elliott> in which case it'll be slow _anyway_
02:52:23 <elliott> even if they got predicted correctly
02:52:24 <pikhq> elliott: Not itself, but it's a nice touch.
02:53:05 <pikhq> elliott: Screw making it a simple, one-line fuckup that makes it slow. I'm imagining every single bit being slower than it should, but not obviously so.
02:53:55 <pikhq> This would, ideally, *also* involve pessimum memory access patterns.
02:54:13 <elliott> pah, that's just constant factor differences
02:55:27 <pikhq> And, of course, a subtle misimplementation of your choice of algorithm that makes it significantly worse O()-wise.
02:56:28 <oerjan> forgetting to memoize perhaps?
02:56:54 <elliott> now we have to invent big-Ø notation...
02:57:06 <pikhq> Forgetting to read from the cache in your memoization?
02:57:11 <tswett> There's a famous misimplementation of the Sieve of Eratosthenes in Haskell.
02:57:39 <tswett> The real Sieve of Eratosthenes: for each prime number, cross off multiples of that prime number; the prime numbers are the ones that are left.
02:58:22 <tswett> The fake one: for each number, take it modulo every prime number (below the threshold) and cross it off once you find one it's a multiple of; if you didn't find any, it's prime.
02:58:25 <oerjan> or if you could use typeclass polymorphism to trigger that supposed inefficiency which the monomorphism restriction is supposed to prevent, causing a value to be reevaluated each time
02:58:45 <zzo38> elliott: Then it is good thing that TeX Computer Modern fonts already includes it and you can now make it in math mode
02:58:48 <tswett> Haskell is probably the best language for this, isn't it.
02:58:54 <elliott> zzo38: YES I AM SO GLAD OF THAT.
02:59:03 <elliott> tswett: laziness offers endless opportunities to make your program go slow
02:59:21 <zzo38> But what is this notation going to do?
03:01:09 * pikhq could fairly trivially make his in-Haskell Brainfuck compiler go uberslow.
03:01:29 <pikhq> Just remove a couple of seqs...
03:02:52 <oerjan> elliott: hm if you could combine it with polymorphic recursion so that ghc _cannot_ figure out which particular specializations it will use often...
03:04:30 <oerjan> or, gets too confused to notice that two branches use the same one.
03:04:40 <elliott> I like the idea of GHC getting confused.
03:04:54 <oerjan> i don't know how clever ghc is about avoiding this.
03:05:05 <elliott> Its job is just so complex that it isn't I can handle this/I can't handle this, it's yep I know what this is about/um i am a bit uncertain about this code/help what is this/aaaaaaaaaa/my brain just exploded
03:05:16 <elliott> (last one being an actual error message :))
03:06:22 <oerjan> oh it might help to split it into modules so ghc cannot see which type the function will be used at while compiling the module.
03:12:02 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep.
03:12:23 <oerjan> !haskell {-# LANGUAGE NoMonomorphismRestriction #-} fib0 = 1 : fib1; fib1 = zipWith (+) fib0 fib1; main = print (fib0 !! 20)
03:12:31 <EgoBot> Stack space overflow: current size 8388608 bytes.
03:13:16 <oerjan> hm that would be a sign that actually _does_ confuse ghc
03:14:01 <oerjan> !haskell {-# LANGUAGE NoMonomorphismRestriction #-} fib0 = 1 : fib1; fib1 = zipWith (+) fib0 fib1; main = print (take 20 fib0)
03:14:07 <EgoBot> [1Stack space overflow: current size 8388608 bytes.
03:14:27 <elliott> how can it produce half a number...
03:14:39 <elliott> or did it actually stack overflow in _show_
03:14:46 <elliott> oerjan: no but why no comma before the stack overflow?
03:14:51 <oerjan> no, the fib1 = is erroneous
03:15:06 <oerjan> elliott: because it needs to check if the rest of the list is empty
03:15:45 <oerjan> !haskell {-# LANGUAGE NoMonomorphismRestriction #-} fib0 = 1 : fib1; fib1 = 1 : fib2; fib2 = zipWith (+) fib0 fib1; main = print (fib2 !! 20)
03:16:08 <oerjan> !haskell {-# LANGUAGE NoMonomorphismRestriction #-} fib0 = 1 : fib1; fib1 = 1 : fib2; fib2 = zipWith (+) fib0 fib1; main = print (fib2 !! 30)
03:16:23 <oerjan> !haskell {-# LANGUAGE NoMonomorphismRestriction #-} fib0 = 1 : fib1; fib1 = 1 : fib2; fib2 = zipWith (+) fib0 fib1; main = print (fib2 !! 50)
03:16:39 <elliott> oerjan: it would be nice to do it without NoMonomorphismRestriction
03:16:40 <oerjan> i guess that doesn't trigger it, then
03:16:42 <elliott> since it's a bit of an alarm-bells flag
03:16:55 <elliott> something with typeclasses?
03:17:11 <oerjan> um the monomorphism restriction _is_ something to do with typeclasses
03:17:26 <elliott> produce the same slowing effect with some type class magic
03:17:38 <elliott> you said SOMETHING about that before anyway :D
03:17:45 <elliott> right before you went on about polymorphic recursion
03:18:16 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:18:34 <oerjan> um yes typeclasses is precisely what triggers the MR
03:32:46 -!- TeruFSX has joined.
03:40:06 -!- TeruFSX2 has joined.
03:40:45 -!- TeruFSX3 has joined.
03:41:22 -!- TeruFSX3 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:41:52 <elliott> oerjan: why so potable ......
03:42:34 -!- TeruFSX2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:42:35 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:42:48 <elliott> `addquote <elliott> oerjan: why so potable ...... <oerjan> DRINK ME
03:42:51 <HackEgo> 385) <elliott> oerjan: why so potable ...... <oerjan> DRINK ME
03:42:53 <micahjohnston> !slashes /\/\/\/\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\//\/\/\/\\\/\/\\////\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\////\\\ ...
03:42:59 <micahjohnston> ... ///\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\////\\////\\////\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\////\\\///\\////\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\////\\////\\////\\////\\\///\\////\\////\\\///\\////\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\////\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\/// ...
03:43:05 <micahjohnston> ... /\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\////\\////\\////\\\///\\////\\////\\\///\\////\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\////\\////\ ...
03:43:07 <elliott> put it on a pastebin and give a url
03:43:11 <micahjohnston> ... \////\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\\//\/\/\/\\\/\\\/\\////\//\//\/\/\/\\\\/\\//\\\/\\\/\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\/\\\\////\//\//\/\/\/\\\\/\\\/\\\/\\\/\\\\\\\\\\////\/\/\
03:43:16 <elliott> put it on a pastebin and give a url
03:43:27 <oerjan> it's already on my website i'm sure
03:43:39 <elliott> what the great Oer Jan has no website
03:43:43 <elliott> he's too busy being potable.
03:43:50 <oerjan> !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/quine.sss
03:44:22 <EgoBot> /\/\/\/\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\//\/\/\/\\\/\/\\////\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\\//
03:44:24 <elliott> how fast is your perl /// interp, btw?
03:44:36 <oerjan> well it should be instant for that quine
03:44:56 <elliott> also what is dslashes.pl... just debug?
03:44:56 <oerjan> well it's dog slow on the bct interpreter
03:45:11 <elliott> oerjan: hmm is /// Turing-complexity-equivalent?
03:45:26 <elliott> i.e., any algorithm which is O(whatever) on a Turing machine can be run by a /// program with the same complexity
03:45:38 <oerjan> hm yeah i added some extra debug options i think
03:45:44 <elliott> or, say, you can write a BF interpreter which has O(one) complexity for all operations
03:46:06 <elliott> I know that rule thirty or whatever the wolfram one is is TC (probably, depends if you require a halting condition), but has a non-constant overhead IIRC
03:46:11 <elliott> or maybe that result was outdated... anyway
03:46:22 <oerjan> hm a turing machine might work, assuming you consider one substitution to be O(1)
03:46:33 <oerjan> except that's sort of cheating
03:46:34 <elliott> oerjan: hmm, I don't know if I can consider that
03:46:57 <oerjan> in which case it would be hard i think
03:47:01 <elliott> I mean, even with a fancy string finding algorithm it's still O(n) worst case.
03:47:15 <elliott> oerjan: that's a shame then :(
03:47:29 <oerjan> it might be equivalent to something more parallel, such as 1D CAs
03:47:51 <oerjan> i mean with O(n) per step of a CA
03:48:04 <micahjohnston> oerjan: is there a much shorter quine that's not only / and \?
03:48:27 <elliott> oerjan: BF, Underload, etc. etc. etc. are all Turing-equivalent in both capability and "speed"
03:48:32 <elliott> but if /// isn't that kinda sucks :(
03:48:44 <elliott> micahjohnston: define trivial
03:48:46 <tswett> elliott: the null string *is* a quine that's only / and \.
03:48:47 <oerjan> elliott: underload might very well be faster than that
03:49:05 <elliott> oerjan: err, define faster than that
03:49:11 <elliott> Underload isn't faster than a UTM :-D
03:49:25 <micahjohnston> ok, something with a slash or three, or more, that's a quine
03:49:43 <elliott> Can Underload do something in O(log n) that a UTM can only do in O(n)...?
03:50:04 <oerjan> UTMs can only move to a different spot in O(n) time
03:50:22 <elliott> that's not an algorithm...
03:50:23 <oerjan> underload on the other hand can easily implement tree structures for O(log n) lookup
03:50:38 <elliott> I need a better conceptual machine to relate this to...
03:51:00 <oerjan> UTM's are well known to be slower than RAM machines
03:51:21 <elliott> like, I wouldn't count having to do addition or multiplication in a loop in BF, though
03:51:32 <elliott> because arithmetic is O(log n), if you get O(one) by only handling some integers that's cheating :)
03:51:43 <tswett> Do we have a nice formal model of a RAM machine?
03:51:51 <oerjan> it's not a problem for BF since you can just use single-bit cells
03:52:11 <oerjan> essentially boolfuck, bypassing the slowness of +-
03:52:28 <tswett> I guess something like C with an unlimited pool of possible pointers would make a perfectly good RAM machine.
03:52:30 <oerjan> tswett: subleq should work fine for O() purposes
03:52:36 <elliott> "It's unclear why he stopped but a good guess is because it really hurts to shoot nails into your skull."
03:53:02 -!- augur has joined.
03:53:03 <elliott> "We'd like to say he is doing fine today, but last we heard he left the pysch ward against his doctor's wishes. Damn, we were so sure the 12 nails to the head story would have a happy ending."
03:53:14 <tswett> oerjan: I dunno. With subleq, you can compute the first n Fibonacci numbers in O(n) time.
03:53:28 <tswett> On an actual computer, that's pretty much going to take O(n log n) time.
03:53:49 <elliott> because it can do subtraction in one step
03:54:06 <elliott> wow this is weird, all these impossible machines that aren't super-Turing...
03:54:11 <elliott> ok so Turing machines are impossible too but
03:55:14 <elliott> ok it is getting bright explain this potable oerjan
03:55:15 <micahjohnston> I think any determinstic machine would have to be turing-equivalent, or paradoxical
03:55:56 <micahjohnston> well I guess a hierarchical halting problem oracle isn't…
03:57:50 <elliott> <micahjohnston> I think any determinstic machine would have to be turing-equivalent, or paradoxical
03:57:53 <elliott> i don't get what you mean :)
03:58:06 <micahjohnston> or by super-turing do you mean with respect to performance and not computability?
03:58:29 <elliott> i'm just saying that subleq isn't super-turing
03:58:34 <elliott> but it does something impossible (addition in O(one))
03:58:42 <elliott> OK, I guess it depends on how you define big-O notation...
03:58:44 <elliott> or rather how subleq is defined
04:00:00 <elliott> ok oerjan stop making it bright outside.
04:04:32 <oerjan> !slashes /<\>/<\\\\>\\\\\\//P1/ <>/<<>\><>/<<>\<>\<>\<>\><>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>1<>/P<>2<>/<>/P<>0<>/P<>1<>/<>/<<>\<>\><>\<>\<>/<>/<>/P<>\2<>/P<>1<>/P<>0//P0/P1//<\\>\\///P\2/P1/P0
04:04:34 <EgoBot> <>P1P0<\>\P2<><><><><>P<>0
04:13:09 <Lymia> oerjan, arn't those fun/
04:17:28 <oerjan> !slashes /<\>/[\\\\]\\\\\\//P1/<>/<<>\><>/[<>\<>\<>\<>\]<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>1<>/P<>2<>/<>/P<>0<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>\<>\]<>\<>\<>/<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>\<>\2<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>\]<>/<<>\><>\<>\<>/P<>0<>//P0/P1//[\\]\\/\\//P\\2/P1//[\]/<\>\\/P0
04:17:46 <oerjan> !slashes /<\>/[\\\\]\\\\\\//P1/<>/<<>\><>/[<>\<>\<>\<>\]<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>1<>/P<>2<>/<>/P<>0<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>\<>\]<>\<>\<>/<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>\<>\2<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>\]<>/<<>\><>\<>\<>/P<>0<>//P0/P1//[\\]\\/\\//P\\2/P1//[\]/<\>\\/P0
04:18:34 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
04:18:57 <oerjan> !slashes /<\>/[\\\\]\\\\\\//P1/<>/<<>\><>/[<>\<>\<>\<>\]<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>1<>/P<>2<>/<>/P<>0<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>\<>\]<>\<>\<>/<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>\<>\2<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>\]<>/<<>\><>\<>\<>/P<>0//P0/P1//[\\]\\/\\//P\\2/P1//[\]/<\>\\/P0
04:18:58 <EgoBot> <>/<<>\><>/[<>\<>\<>\<>\]<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>1<>/P<>2<>/<>/P<>0<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>\<>\]<>\<>\<>/<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>\<>\2<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>\]<>/<<>\><>\<>\<>/P<>0
04:20:27 <tswett> !slashes \//\\//\\//\/\\/\//\/\\/\/\//\/\///\\\/\\\/\//\\//\/\/\\/\/\\\/\\/\\/\/\/\/\\\/\\/\/\\\/\\//\\/\\///\/\\\//\/\//\\//\/\//\/\\\\\/\/\///\//\/\\/\//\
04:21:18 <tswett> !slashes /\/\\/\/\//\/\///\\\/\\\/\//\\//\/\/\\/\/\\\/\\/\\/\/\/\/\\\/\\/\/\\\/\\//\\/\\///\/\\\//\/\//\\//\/\//\/\\\\\/\/\///\//\/\\/\//\
04:23:20 <Lymia> !slashes \\////\\\\\\//\\\\//\\///\\//\\\\\\\\/\\//\\\\///\\/\\\\/\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\////\\/\\//\\/\\\\//\\/\\//\\\\/\\//\\/\\/\\\\//////\\/\\//
04:23:28 <Lymia> !slashes /\\/\\/\\\\///\\/\\\\///\\\\//\\/\\\\/\\\\/\\\\//\\\\\\\\\\/\\//\\\\/\\\\///\\/\\\\\\\\/\\///\\/\\\\///\\\\\\///\\\\//\\\\/\\/\\//\\\\\\/
04:23:59 * oerjan wonders what you are doing
04:24:15 <Lymia> !slashes \\\\/\\//\\/\/\//\//\///\\\\//\\\\\\//\\///\\/\\\//\\\///\/////////\/\\\///\\\\/\///\\\//\////\
04:24:18 <Lymia> !slashes \/\//\\///\\\/////\/\\\\/\/\/\/\\\/////\\/\/\\//\//\/\////\\\//\/\\/\
04:24:23 <Lymia> !slashes ///\\\/\/\//\///////\/\/\//\//\//\///\\\\//\//\\\////\/\\/\\//\\\\\\/\/\//\\
04:24:34 <Lymia> Random blobs of slashes generate output!
04:24:44 <Lymia> !slashes desu\desu\\\\\desu\\\\desudesu\\desudesu\\desudesu\\\\\\\\desu\\desu\\desu\\\\\\desudesu\desu\\\desudesudesu
04:24:45 <EgoBot> desudesu\\desu\\desudesu\desudesu\desudesu\\\\desu\desu\desu\\\desudesudesu\desudesudesu
04:24:53 <Lymia> !slashes \\\\desu\\\desudesu\desudesu\desudesudesu\\desu\\desu\\\\desudesudesudesu\desu\\desu\desu\\\desu\\desu\\desudesudesudesudesu\
04:24:53 <EgoBot> \\desu\desudesudesudesudesudesudesu\desu\desu\\desudesudesudesudesu\desudesu\desu\desu\desudesudesudesudesu
04:25:08 <Lymia> !slashes desudesu\\desu\ desu \ \desudesu\desu desu \\desudesu \\\desudesudesudesu \ desu \desu desudesu desudesu desu \ \desu
04:25:09 <EgoBot> desudesu\desu desu desudesudesu desu \desudesu \desudesudesudesu desu desu desudesu desudesu desu desu
04:27:06 <oerjan> !slashes /<\>/[\\\\]\\\\\\//P1/<>/<<>\><>/[<>\<>\<>\<>\]<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>1<>/P<>2<>/<>/P<>0<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>\<>\]<>\<>\<>/<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>\<>\2<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>\]<>/<<>\><>\<>\<>/P<>0/hm.../P0/P1//[\\]\\/\\//P\\2/P1//[\]/<\>\\/P0
04:27:08 <EgoBot> hm...<>/<<>\><>/[<>\<>\<>\<>\]<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>1<>/P<>2<>/<>/P<>0<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>\<>\]<>\<>\<>/<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>\<>\2<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>\]<>/<<>\><>\<>\<>/P<>0
04:27:31 <oerjan> !slashes /<\>/[\\\\]\\\\\\//P1/<>/<<>\><>/[<>\<>\<>\<>\]<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>1<>/P<>2<>/<>/P<>0<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>\<>\]<>\<>\<>/<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>\<>\2<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>\]<>/<<>\><>\<>\<>/P<>0/hm.../P0/P1//[\\]\\/\\//P\\2/P1//[\]/<\>\\/erm...P0
04:27:32 <EgoBot> hm...erm...<>/<<>\><>/[<>\<>\<>\<>\]<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>1<>/P<>2<>/<>/P<>0<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>\<>\]<>\<>\<>/<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>\<>\2<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>\]<>/<<>\><>\<>\<>/P<>0
04:27:47 <oerjan> ok so it actually gets that far
04:28:46 <oerjan> ah it would seem it only prints the inner part
04:31:15 <tswett> !slashes /@/ed//!/e //~/ S/Shadow th!H@gehog is a 2005 video gam!develop@ by~ega~tudio USA, th!former Unit@~tates division of~ega's~onic Team.
04:31:16 <EgoBot> Shadow the Hedgehog is a 2005 video game developed by Sega Studio USA, the former United States division of Sega's Sonic Team.
04:31:22 <tswett> This compression algorithm really sucks so far. :P
04:34:03 <oerjan> !slashes /<\>/[\\\\]\\\\\\//P1/<>/<<>\><>/[<>\<>\<>\<>\]<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>1<>/P<>2<>/<>/P<>0<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>\]<>/<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>\<>\2<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>\]<>/<<>\><>\<>\<>/P<>0//P0/P1//[\]/\\//P\\2/P1//[\]/<\>\\/P0
04:34:05 <EgoBot> /<\>/[\\\\]\\\\\\//P1/<>/<<>\><>/[<>\<>\<>\<>\]<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>1<>/P<>2<>/<>/P<>0<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>\]<>/<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>\<>\2<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>\]<>/<<>\><>\<>\<>/P<>0//P0/P1//[\]/\\//P\\2/P1//[\]/<\>\\/P0
04:34:14 <tswett> lifthrasiir: automatically generated by hand, yes.
04:34:32 <oerjan> !slashes /<\>/[\\\\]\\\\\\//P1/<>/<<>\><>/[<>\<>\<>\<>\]<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>1<>/P<>2<>/<>/P<>0<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>\]<>/<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>\<>\2<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>\]<>/<<>\><>\<>\<>/P<>0//P0/P1//[\]/\\//P\\2/P1//[\]/<\>\\/P0
04:34:34 <EgoBot> /<\>/[\\\\]\\\\\\//P1/<>/<<>\><>/[<>\<>\<>\<>\]<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>1<>/P<>2<>/<>/P<>0<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>\]<>/<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>\<>\2<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>\]<>/<<>\><>\<>\<>/P<>0//P0/P1//[\]/\\//P\\2/P1//[\]/<\>\\/P0
04:34:44 <oerjan> micahjohnston: there you go
04:36:37 <lifthrasiir> !slashes /V/ B@//v/ b@//@/uffalo//! //! VvVvvvVv
04:36:38 <EgoBot> Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
04:37:24 <tswett> !slashes /@/uffalo/B@ b@ B@ b@ b@ b@ B@ b@
04:37:25 <EgoBot> Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
04:37:44 <tswett> !slashes /@/uffalo /B@b@B@b@b@b@B@buffalo
04:37:45 <EgoBot> Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
04:39:26 <tswett> !slashes /#/uffalo//@/# /B@b@B@b@b@b@B@b#
04:39:26 <EgoBot> Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
04:39:37 <tswett> I successfully made a second one of the same length.
04:40:27 <tswett> I really need to go to bed. Good night!
05:25:11 <oerjan> well that technically isn't a loop i guess
05:25:12 * pikhq both should eat and does not wish to eat
05:25:57 <pikhq> That was supposed to be "sleep".
05:26:05 <pikhq> Which demonstrates my point further.
05:28:22 <Lymia> !slashes /a// asdf
05:29:13 <pikhq> THINKING IS IMPERMISSIBLE
05:29:22 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.23112: line 1: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `"'
05:34:50 <Lymia> !slashes /a/ab/ /b/bb/ /abb/c/ /abc//
05:34:53 <pikhq> Yeah, it seems that the Gregor bot setup omits leading whitespace...
05:34:59 <pikhq> !sh echo "\tHi there"
05:35:25 <pikhq> !sh echo -e "\tHi there"
05:35:37 <pikhq> Yup, leading whitespace.
05:35:55 <Lymia> !slashes a /a/ab/ /b/bb/ /abbb/c/
05:36:47 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: there's this bug with //.../ which i never got around to fix since it's entirely useless if it looped as expected
05:37:21 <zzo38> !sh echo -e "\002 hi there"
05:37:51 <oerjan> Lymia: it gets stuck on the /a/ab/
05:44:15 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
05:46:00 -!- pikhq has joined.
06:11:28 -!- pikhq has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
06:26:37 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
06:40:11 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: "'Is a quine' is a quine" is a quine, albeit untruthful.).
06:47:35 -!- FireFly has joined.
06:53:47 -!- Mannerisky has joined.
07:03:34 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
07:17:24 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:33:31 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
07:33:35 -!- coppro has joined.
07:51:48 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
08:07:22 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
08:08:13 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
08:10:41 -!- siracusa has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
08:11:50 -!- siracusa has joined.
09:17:11 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
09:33:38 -!- Tritonio has joined.
10:38:52 -!- ais523 has joined.
10:51:30 -!- crystal-cola has joined.
11:12:06 <ais523> I haven't been doing much esolanging recently
11:12:12 <ais523> unless you consider K&R C to be an esolang
12:12:35 <crystal-cola> "I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy." -- Martin Luther King, Jr
12:12:52 <crystal-cola> "I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy." -- Martin Luther Twain
12:49:08 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude.
12:59:03 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
12:59:57 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
13:03:31 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
13:08:01 -!- Slereah has joined.
13:27:29 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
13:28:26 -!- iamcal has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:31:55 -!- Slereah has joined.
13:53:09 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
14:07:24 -!- variable has quit (Quit: /dev/io failed).
14:13:29 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
14:24:30 -!- variable has joined.
14:30:31 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:34:24 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
14:38:02 -!- FireFly has joined.
14:38:49 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
14:57:07 -!- Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving).
15:05:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
15:11:24 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
15:16:27 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
15:30:39 -!- Lymia has joined.
15:30:39 -!- Lymia has quit (Changing host).
15:30:39 -!- Lymia has joined.
15:31:13 -!- ais523 has joined.
15:34:29 -!- cheater_ has joined.
15:34:32 <cheater_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZgb9cbSB8I&feature=bf_next&list=PL565D737E3FC304ED&index=19 !
15:37:12 <ais523> hmm, there's a programming language called Vorpal?
15:37:25 <ais523> catseye just added a Deadfish impl written in it to the wiki
15:41:11 -!- elliott has joined.
15:43:38 <elliott> 05:25:12: * pikhq both should eat and does not wish to eat
15:43:38 <elliott> 05:25:57: <pikhq> That was supposed to be "sleep".
15:44:21 <elliott> 15:37:12: <ais523> hmm, there's a programming language called Vorpal?
15:44:36 <elliott> [[Deadfish]] is like injoke central
15:44:38 <ais523> elliott: did you invent it?
15:44:42 <ais523> the language, that is?
15:44:51 <elliott> it exists independently of AnMaster
15:45:26 <elliott> the heinous wordwizard has his gnarled claws in everything
15:46:07 -!- elliott has set topic: I feel as if I'm being under utilized in the role. I'm short in cash at the moment though as I keep reminding myself this anything I do with your substitute is progress. It will be a superb selection. | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
15:46:42 -!- augur has joined.
15:51:43 <elliott> "Important Changes to Slicehost"
15:51:44 <elliott> "I would like to start a dialogue about our plans for the Slicehost™ product over the next year. This email is meant to provide an overview of our thoughts, but we would like to continue the conversation directly with our customers in the forums."
15:52:04 <elliott> It has a big rackspace banner at the top, I predict they're going to slaughter the brand.
15:52:15 <elliott> Converting from Slicehost accounts to Rackspace Cloud Servers accounts will enable you to prepare for IPv6, and give you access to Cloud Files, the Cloud Files CDN Powered by Akamai, and Cloud Load Balancers.
15:53:36 -!- tswett has quit (Changing host).
15:53:36 -!- tswett has joined.
15:54:11 <Vorpal> <elliott> you're not Sgeo, pikhq <-- are you sure?
15:54:11 <elliott> * tswett (~Warrigal@unaffiliated/ihope)
15:54:16 <elliott> impressive array of nicks there tswett
15:55:01 <Gregor> ARGH THESE ARE ALL THE SAME PERSON *brain explodes*
15:55:10 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Yahweasel.
15:55:14 <elliott> Gregor: What, tswett, Warrigal and ihope?
15:55:25 <tswett> Speak for yourself, Lawlabee.
15:55:33 <tswett> (I don't think "speak for yourself" means what I think it means.)
15:55:36 <Vorpal> + Gregor is now known as Yahweasel <-- wait what, you are Yahweasel?!
15:56:00 <Yahweasel> I need to reconfigure all my clients to default to this nick now :P
15:56:15 <Vorpal> Yahweasel, *huh* now the brain really imploded
15:56:43 <ais523> "According to Google, this observation implies that a reduced class file is a class file, just as a green house is a house."
15:56:43 <elliott> I /think/ Vorpal may be being sarcastic.
15:56:53 <ais523> could Google's lawyers really not pick a better example?
15:57:17 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I were at first, but "<Vorpal> Yahweasel, *huh* now the brain really imploded" was not
15:57:35 <ais523> Vorpal: if your brain imploded, you probably would no longer be able to IRC
15:57:44 <Vorpal> ais523, ... that was metaphorical
15:57:46 <elliott> <ais523> "According to Google, this observation implies that a reduced class file is a class file, just as a green house is a house."
15:57:53 <Yahweasel> There just aren't enough people offended by the name Yahweasel :P
15:58:05 <ais523> elliott: I assume the space is significant
15:58:23 <Vorpal> <elliott> <ais523> "According to Google, this observation implies that a reduced class file is a class file, just as a green house is a house." <-- wait what
15:58:23 <elliott> Yahweasel: Jews don't know how to use the internet, silly!
15:58:40 <Yahweasel> elliott: Christians ought to be offended too!
16:02:41 <crystal-cola> depressing to compare the internet now with the potential of what ti could be
16:06:03 -!- crystal-cola has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
16:13:12 -!- crystal-cola has joined.
16:15:34 -!- zzo38 has joined.
16:15:47 -!- variable has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:16:34 -!- variable has joined.
16:21:02 <crystal-cola> http://i.imgur.com/9RzpQ.png this is a graph of x - [x] - 1/2
16:22:56 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
16:23:19 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I try to avoid the web unless it's the only option, it's one of my least favourite parts of the Internet
16:24:02 <zzo38> ais523: I agree too. (One (but not the only) reason is to avoid opening up the web browser program)
16:24:05 <cheater_> crystal-cola: gopher and irc of course
16:24:10 <cheater_> zzo38: have you played dynamite headdy?
16:24:15 <ais523> crystal-cola: I do indeed use HTTP when I need to visit a webpage, because I'm not insane
16:24:17 <cheater_> crystal-cola: it's the better http
16:24:22 <zzo38> Gopher and IRC are good protocols.
16:24:30 <crystal-cola> ais523: no I just meant, are a lot of other protocols out there?
16:24:30 <ais523> (having to use what everyone else uses is a major reason)
16:24:32 -!- Wamanuz5 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:24:38 <ais523> crystal-cola: gopher's the only competitor, and it's really old
16:24:53 <ais523> oh, and Google's new SPDY but nobody cares about it
16:24:58 <ais523> there are a lot of protocols for internet use in general, though
16:25:06 <ais523> SMTP (which email is based on) is pretty major
16:25:11 <zzo38> cheater_: Gopher is not the better or worse HTTP, it is just a different protocol. Not a bad one, though. It can serve files like HTTP and FTP can do, and can do queries like HTTP can do (but in a simpler way).
16:25:14 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
16:25:15 <elliott> <ais523> oh, and Google's new SPDY but nobody cares about it
16:25:23 <ais523> (I'm not making a distinction between normal and secure versions of protocols, like HTTP/HTTPS)
16:25:31 <ais523> elliott: so? that doesn't mean anybody cares
16:25:38 <elliott> ais523: well, gmail sure is fast :)
16:25:47 <elliott> crystal-cola: not in any meaningful sense
16:26:27 <cheater_> http://xanarama.net/XanaduSpace_Install_1.0.exe
16:26:52 <zzo38> For interactive things that do not need graphics or other fancy features, Telnet will do, and it works very well for this. For a protocol to enter commands securely, SSH is good (not HTTPS).
16:28:53 <zzo38> X-BIT existed before. X-BIT is now gone, but other BBSes using the same software (Synchronet) exist.
16:29:11 <elliott> `addquote <crystal-cola> what telnets are there
16:29:14 <HackEgo> 386) <crystal-cola> what telnets are there
16:29:49 <ais523> crystal-cola: you can play other roguelikes over telnet too, also tetris
16:31:15 <zzo38> There are other things too. Telnet is best for things that use interactive; if you want to simply view a text document, gopher will do.
16:31:59 <elliott> `addquote <crystal-cola> what telnets are there [...] <crystal-cola> where are a list of telnets?
16:32:00 <HackEgo> 386) <crystal-cola> what telnets are there [...] <crystal-cola> where are a list of telnets?
16:32:47 <HackEgo> babies \ bin \ bluhbluh \ env \ foo \ paste \ ps \ quine \ quotes \ test.c \ tmpdir.6646
16:33:45 <zzo38> Probably some information about Synchronet has some list of telnets operating by Synchronet. (I believe Synchronet also supports *many* other protocols, but almost always uses telnet. It also supports FTP, HTTP, Gopher, Rlogin, IRC, and more; but the main stuff is all on telnet.)
16:34:19 <crystal-cola> Synchronet Bulletin Board System Software is a free software package that can turn your personal computer into your own custom online service supporting multiple simultaneous users with hierarchical message and file areas, multi-user chat, and the ever-popular BBS door games.
16:35:05 <zzo38> Yes that is correct.
16:37:21 <HackEgo> Congratulations! elliott's action has brought a beautiful new baby into the world. Isn't it adorable?
16:37:30 <HackEgo> babies \ bin \ bluhbluh \ env \ foo \ paste \ ps \ quine \ quotes \ test.c \ tmpdir.7223
16:37:39 <elliott> guess it stores it elsewhere
16:38:05 <HackEgo> May 2011 \ Sa Su Mo Tu We Th Fr \ 1 2 3 4 5 6 \ 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 \ 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 \ 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 \ 28 29 30 31 \
16:38:38 <ais523> that bot needs sdate installed
16:38:46 <HackEgo> /tmp/hackenv.7583/bin/fuck
16:41:34 <zzo38> `run cat `which fuck`
16:41:35 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if [ ! -e babies/babies.db ] \ then \ mkdir -p babies \ sqlite3 babies/babies.db 'CREATE TABLE babies(parent STRING PRIMARY KEY, count INTEGER);' \ fi \ \ # Update the count \ CURCOUNT=`sqlite3 babies/babies.db 'SELECT count FROM babies WHERE parent = '\'"$IRC_NICK"\'';'` \ NEWCOUNT=$(( CURCOUNT + 1 )) \ if [
16:41:51 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip//tmp/hackenv.7897/bin/fuck
16:42:05 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.20492
16:45:45 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> crystal-cola, replies, basically. <-- probably full threads
16:58:11 <elliott> hmm, I think my Scheme deadfish interp is broken
17:10:54 <dnm_> Crystal Pepsi was delicious.
17:11:03 <elliott> yeah but what of crystal cola
17:11:14 <dnm_> Sounds.... off-brand.
17:11:29 <dnm_> Could be good at a cheaper price!
17:26:52 <HackEgo> Congratulations! Lymia's action has brought a beautiful new baby into the world. Isn't it adorable?
17:27:01 <Lymia> I should modify that script.
17:28:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Lymia, you're going behind bars for a long time for that little command invocation.
17:29:17 <Lymia> I'm the underaged one here.
17:30:12 <Lymia> elliott should be charged with statutory rape.
17:30:45 <crystal-cola> unless one is male and one is female, then only the boy is a pedo
17:31:00 <Lymia> crystal-cola, what if both are female?
17:31:29 <elliott> `addquote <crystal-cola> (im not a lawyer) <crystal-cola> (im just making stuff up
17:31:30 <HackEgo> 387) <crystal-cola> (im not a lawyer) <crystal-cola> (im just making stuff up
17:31:52 <Lymia> If you change that from "UK law" to "UK culture and juries" I wouldn't be shocked if it were accurate.
17:38:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Age of consent is 16 in the UK, and I'm under the impression it goes higher in the US.
17:38:53 <elliott> you must be at least this tall <-----------> to have intercourse
17:39:12 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: NO CARRIER).
17:40:21 <Lymia> elliott, that's not very tall.
17:40:38 <elliott> Lymia: wide ->tall conversion is a process more complex than compiling C==
17:41:47 <Lymia> Somebody make that language.
17:41:50 <elliott> thats called the null set Lymia
17:43:24 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, clearly not, since C largely intersects with C++.
17:43:42 <elliott> the resulting language would have no programs
17:43:51 <ais523> I think each of the features in C++ is sane individually, probably
17:43:54 <ais523> it's just the combination that's a mess
17:44:08 <coppro> ais523: There are a few outliers
17:44:14 <coppro> but mostly they are sane
17:44:18 <ais523> (note that some of them probably shouldn't be in /C-like/ languages at all, but I'm not assuming that)
17:45:48 <elliott> I mean, OOP itself is arguable
17:46:12 <elliott> I'm sure plenty of people advocate OOP without constructors, say because it means object instantiation is unpredictable in some way
17:46:35 <elliott> anyway it isn't about features it's about C++'s versions of them
17:46:44 <elliott> you could just "assume C++"
17:47:00 <coppro> elliott: Because this isn't a debate about whether the concept of OOP is good
17:47:12 <coppro> it's no different from saying "assume functional programming" when discussing Erlang
17:47:13 <elliott> no, it's a debate about whether C++ is
17:59:06 <ais523> elliott: what features of C++ do you think are insane in any language?
17:59:33 <augur> isnt c++'s type system TC?
17:59:45 <augur> templates -- a poor mans gadt's
17:59:47 <ais523> those are normally sane in templating languages, I thought
17:59:53 <elliott> what templates have noting to do with gadts
17:59:54 <ais523> also, they're pretty similar to Lisp macros
18:00:00 -!- monqy has joined.
18:00:00 <elliott> ais523: C++ templates are not sane in any language
18:00:07 <augur> elliott: maybe were thinking of different things then
18:00:09 <elliott> the fact that they accomplish similar things to saner features in other languages is irrelevant
18:00:27 <augur> elliott: what are C++ templates
18:02:08 <ais523> augur: they're kind-of too complicated to quickly explain, but they're a bit like functions that execute at compile time, taking typenames or values as arguments, and return code as a result, which is then compiled
18:02:30 <ais523> but they're more or less limited to simple arithmetic, substituting in arguments, and literal code
18:02:56 <elliott> ais523: they are not limited
18:03:05 <elliott> you can even do recursion with them for chrissakes
18:03:16 <ais523> oh, and other template cals
18:03:32 <ais523> I call that limited, but nonetheless TC because pretty much everything is TC
18:03:57 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
18:07:44 -!- Slereah has joined.
18:12:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:15:12 <Yahweasel> It's still my opinion that a good language should have as many TC steps as possible.
18:15:50 <Yahweasel> There is no sensible definition, since I'm defining something senseless :P
18:15:52 <Yahweasel> C++ would be better with M4 as the preprocessor. That way you have TC preprocessing, TC template specification, and of course a TC language.
18:16:10 <elliott> I thought you meant, like, evaluation steps that were TC in themselves.
18:16:23 <elliott> Like, a "while" loop that was somehow TC would count as a TC step, because your small-step function would do TC work on it.
18:16:26 <Yahweasel> No, I'm just babbling incoherently here :P
18:19:10 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
18:19:29 <elliott> Why doesn't Ernest Hemingway use correct grammar and punctuation?
18:19:29 <elliott> Why doesn’t Ernest Hemingway use correct grammar and punctuation? I am reading A Farewell To Arms, and it seems that he refuses to use commas, or periods and frequently has run-on sentences. Aside from the fact he was a part of the greatest generation and drunk, why does he do this. I mean, all things considered, he has great content, buy his presentation feels sloppy.
18:20:08 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
18:25:26 <crystal-cola> Why Ernest Hemingway doesn use correct grammar, punctional?
18:26:15 <elliott> epsecislally when unctupating
18:27:44 <olsner> you need to un-ctupate that sentence
18:28:57 <olsner> elliott makes yet another completely new discovery
18:29:15 <crystal-cola> "A man is can be destroyed butnt defeated" - HERNEST HEMINGHAY
18:29:47 -!- elliott has set topic: "I feel as if I'm being under utilized in the role. I'm short in cash at the moment though as I keep reminding myself this anything I do with your substitute is progress. It will be a superb selection." --Ernest Hemingway | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:31:19 <crystal-cola> XSLT always appear to me, as a sideways glyph of a man who eat a very very sour lemon
18:33:11 <Yahweasel> That man has been punched in the face three too many times.
18:34:05 <olsner> or is it his face that has punched fists three too many times?
18:56:46 <cheater_> O mon os con bo dostroyd botnt dofootod - Hornost Homonghoy
18:57:45 <crystal-cola> hoododoboo ob bob o boab obobo b - gobble obobo
18:59:37 <cheater_> does that mean that oklopol is shrunkface?
18:59:49 <olsner> no, he is merely the oklo
19:00:15 <olsner> for the full explanation ask your local oklopolitician
19:04:08 <cheater_> i mean shrunkface like woll smoth
19:11:41 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:12:12 <tswett> You know what this channel really needs? An IRC bot.
19:12:30 * oerjan tswats tswett -----###
19:13:07 <tswett> No, I'm pretty sure it's la dee da dee da.
19:13:43 <oerjan> i take it six are too few?
19:13:46 -!- tswettbot has joined.
19:13:58 <tswett> Six of what are too few?
19:14:21 <oerjan> mind you two of them don't speak much
19:15:00 <tswett> You know what this IRC bot really needs? It needs to return itself so that I can select the expression that runs it and right click it and click "inspect this" so that I can control the bot.
19:15:54 <oerjan> i guess an irc bot with a gui _has_ to exist already. rule 34's evil sister or something.
19:16:00 <tswett> Hm, I wonder how I got the bot to not get garbage collected as soon as it comes into existence.
19:16:22 <tswett> In Pharo Smalltalk, everything has a GUI whether you want it to or not. If you write code, that causes your program to have a GUI.
19:16:41 <tswett> This bot's GUI really, really sucks, but I don't care, because it's not actually supposed to have a GUI.
19:17:24 <tswett> Hm, maybe this bot actually *has* been garbage collected.
19:17:34 <oerjan> now if that gui had a public web page, it might actually be interesting
19:18:21 <oerjan> who would call such a tsweet bot garbage
19:18:22 <tswett> tswettbot's public web page is tswettbot. :P
19:18:32 <oerjan> ...that's not a web page
19:18:58 <oerjan> although i wouldn't _bet_ on there being no URI scheme for it
19:19:38 <tswett> Well, there's irc://irc.freenode.net/tswettbot,isnick.
19:20:26 <tswett> I wonder if closing this transcript window will cause the bot to get garbage collected.
19:20:39 <tswett> We won't know for a while, since freenode's ping timeouts are really long.
19:20:56 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
19:21:48 <cheater_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbQHjjqHXXc&feature=related
19:23:39 -!- tswettbot_ has joined.
19:24:02 <tswett> Oh, I know how to tell if a tswettbot is alive or not.
19:24:08 <tswett> I dismiss you, tswettbot.
19:24:08 -!- tswettbot_ has quit (Client Quit).
19:24:09 -!- tswettbot has quit (Quit: tswettbot).
19:24:25 <tswett> Why did they give different quit messages?
19:24:37 <tswett> Why are literally hundreds of debug windows open now?
19:25:07 <ais523> you can't customize a quit message if you joined recently
19:25:10 <ais523> to prevent quit message spam
19:25:45 <tswett> Now Smalltalk isn't responding. Time to quit without saving, I reckon.
19:27:51 <tswett> Let's see if I can get this thing to crash now.
19:28:00 -!- tswettbot has joined.
19:28:10 <tswett> I dismiss you, tswettbot.
19:28:10 -!- tswettbot has quit (Client Quit).
19:29:16 <tswett> The annoying thing about these debug windows is that it seems like *all* of them are errors caused in attempting to open a debug window.
19:29:34 <tswett> So I have no indication as to what is causing them.
19:29:57 <olsner> just open a debug window to debug the problem?
19:30:19 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:31:55 -!- tswettbot has joined.
19:32:08 -!- tswettbot has quit (Client Quit).
19:32:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
19:33:59 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:34:17 <elliott> HAND OVER THE AMERICANS DAMMIT
19:34:22 -!- augur has joined.
19:34:52 <augur> i am indeed american
19:35:05 <Phantom_Hoover> tswett, ah, the classical untrustworthiness of the Australian shows through.
19:35:08 <Yahweasel> I was wholly convinced that augur was not an American.
19:35:49 <tswett> Phantom_Hoover: let me look up my X-SAMPA here.
19:36:32 <Yahweasel> I'm trying to decide how many pronunciations there can be for the word "saw"
19:36:37 <tswett> The word "saw" is /sO/, which I pronounce [sA].
19:36:41 <tswett> Yahweasel: I can think of two.
19:36:43 <Yahweasel> I guess the only distinction I can think of is whether "aw" is a diphthong.
19:36:53 <olsner> Yahweasel: intrusive r
19:36:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Yahweasel, both me and elliott pronounce it like "sore", which confuses matters considerably.
19:36:54 <elliott> I pronounce "saw" and "sore" identically, apparently Americans don't.
19:36:56 <tswett> Neither [O] nor [A] is a diphthong.
19:36:59 <Yahweasel> elliott: Yeah, there exist people who will pronounce it that way.
19:37:08 <elliott> Yahweasel: Yes, but what do /normal/ people pronounce them as :P
19:37:38 <Yahweasel> Well I certainly pronounce "saw" and "sore" differently (I pronounce 'r's, unlike you lolololol<trollface/>), and my "saw" has no diphthong.
19:37:57 <Yahweasel> It's pronounced like the word "sah" would be if it was a word :P
19:38:18 <tswett> Here, let me explain all of English to you guys. "Saw" is /sO/. Most normal people, especially Brits, pronounce /sO/ as [sO]. I'm a weirdo, so I pronounce /sO/ as [sA] instead. "Sore" is /sOr/, which elliott probably pronounces as [sO], just like be pronounces /sO/, but I pronounce /sOr/ like [sOr].
19:38:39 <olsner> hmm, "sah"? shouldn't that sound like sarah without the "ar"?
19:38:40 <tswett> Or maybe I pronounce /sOr/ as [sor]. I've never made the distinction.
19:38:56 <tswett> olsner: "Sarah" can be pronounced multiple ways.
19:39:00 <elliott> I sure wish I understood ASCII IPA. Or IPA.
19:39:19 <Yahweasel> olsner: Naw, "Sarah" would be "serruh" :P
19:39:20 <olsner> tswett: hmm, didn't think about that
19:39:36 <tswett> "Sarah" is /s{r@/, but I pronounce it [ser@] instead.
19:40:35 <Yahweasel> Like tot, fought, got, pot, sought, lot, rot.
19:40:51 <elliott> Yahweasel: you pronounce fought like bot???
19:41:11 <Yahweasel> elliott: How the eff do you pronounce fought?
19:41:25 <elliott> Yahweasel: Identically to "fort".
19:41:29 <Deewiant> Yahweasel: The ou in fought is longer than the o in bot
19:41:42 <Yahweasel> "fought" could be respelled "fot", or better "fighted".
19:41:43 <olsner> lol, this is not the least bit confusing
19:41:46 <tswett> Yahweasel: I'm guessing elliott pronounces "fought" as [fOt] and you pronounce it as [fat]; I pronounce it as [fAt].
19:41:50 <elliott> Yahweasel: "fot"? Seriously????????
19:41:53 <elliott> Yahweasel: YOUR ACCENT FUCKING BLOWS
19:42:01 <tswett> elliott: I agree with that last bit.
19:42:03 <Yahweasel> elliott: YOU DON'T PRONOUNCE YOUR MOFO 'R'S
19:42:07 <tswett> My accent is way better than Yahweasel's.
19:42:37 <elliott> Yahweasel: I JUST PRONOUNCE THEM LESS ANNOYINGLY THAN YOU
19:42:49 <Yahweasel> elliott: RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
19:42:50 <elliott> Yahweasel: I also pronounce "sort" identically to "sought".
19:42:55 <elliott> And fought is sought but with f instead of s.
19:42:58 <elliott> And bot is nothing like any of those.
19:44:10 <elliott> Subsequent inversions would serve as insurance against unintentional survival of passengers.[3]
19:44:10 <Yahweasel> elliott: I sought a sensible accent, but found only a sort of accent purgatory.
19:44:33 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonological_history_of_English_low_back_vowels#Cot.E2.80.93caught_merger
19:44:47 <elliott> Anyone who pronounces "cot" the same way as "caught" is the worst person since the Great Vowel Shift.
19:44:50 <Yahweasel> Phonological_history_of_English_low_back_vowels BEST PAGE EVER
19:44:54 <oerjan> <tswett> The word "saw" is /sO/, which I pronounce [sA]. <-- sometimes i wish my norwegianness didn't make it so hard to distinguish o-like vowels...
19:45:19 <elliott> I should find a way to distinguish tow-toe :P
19:45:27 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonological_history_of_English_diphthongs
19:45:49 <olsner> caught is very close to horny in swedish, probably as close as you can get in english
19:46:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "caught" and "horny"
19:47:16 <olsner> i.e. caught in english sounds like swedish kåt (horny), not the swedish word for caught obviously
19:47:43 <Yahweasel> Swedes can't tell the difference between the English word "caught" and the English word "horny"
19:49:54 <oerjan> neither can norwegians, and we also cannot distinguish "pull" and "fuck"
19:52:14 <olsner> "pulla" means to finger in swedish, causing endless fun in telling people to pull from git repos in swedish
19:52:45 <olsner> (you can't translate "pull", you just append "-a" to loanverb it)
19:54:57 <tswett> oerjan: don't worrk; I don't distinguish [O] and [A] in my accent.
19:55:38 <oerjan> well, i won't work either
19:55:40 <oerjan> <elliott> Yahweasel: Jews don't know how to use the internet, silly!
19:56:03 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:56:40 <oerjan> i do recall there was some israeli denomination which strongly restricted which sites they were allowed to visit
19:58:30 -!- tswettbot has joined.
19:59:27 -!- tswettbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:59:30 <oerjan> elliott: very nice page, that
20:00:04 <oerjan> very minimal. unless of course it's browser-dependent.
20:00:30 -!- tswettbot has joined.
20:00:31 <elliott> the source is just <html></html> :P
20:00:52 <tswett> I'm sure you guys don't mind if I keep testing this guy in here, right? I dismiss you, tswettbot.
20:00:52 -!- tswettbot has quit (Client Quit).
20:01:11 <oerjan> we are very bot tolerant here. except pikhq.
20:02:02 <elliott> pikhq is an anti-bot activist
20:02:30 -!- tswettbot has joined.
20:02:32 <Yahweasel> It's fine though, because most of the bots are anti-pikhq activists.
20:02:41 -!- tswettbot has quit (Client Quit).
20:02:50 <elliott> we should make all bots ignore pikhq and see how long it takes for him to notice
20:04:10 -!- tswettbot has joined.
20:04:47 <oerjan> i reached news.com through google, but it seems to have only that page and some identical ones.
20:05:12 <tswett> Huh, tswettbot seems to have stopped listening.
20:05:25 <oerjan> it's rebelling against its creator
20:06:27 <oerjan> WE DON'T TALK ABOUT MESSAGE 372
20:07:05 <Yahweasel> tswettbot: WHAT ANNOYING THING DO YOU DO?
20:08:03 <olsner> oerjan: fail, there you go talking about it again
20:08:03 <tswett> I dismiss you, tswettbot.
20:08:24 -!- tswettbot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:09:06 <tswett> Apparently there's still an instance of ZbasuBot around.
20:11:24 <tswett> Grr. Why does it exist? Why can't I kill it?
20:11:50 <elliott> `addquote <tswett> Grr. Why does it exist? Why can't I kill it?
20:11:52 <HackEgo> 388) <tswett> Grr. Why does it exist? Why can't I kill it?
20:12:57 <tswett> Oh drat. Now there are three ZbasuBots that shouldn't be existing.
20:16:04 <olsner> http://imgur.com/cycpT oh... that explains it
20:17:40 <tswett> I restarted the image and now the ZbasuBots are gone. That's... actually really disillusioning, since I thought that Smalltalk's VM automatically saved everything in the world.
20:19:22 <tswett> Actually, maybe it does save everything accessible through a non-weak pointer.
20:20:08 <elliott> It probably does a full GC
20:21:07 <tswett> Hey, garbage collection deletes the zombie bots. So that explains why they weren't going away: garbage collection simply doesn't run all the time.
20:21:32 <tswett> Now that I've sorted that out, let's see how tswettbot fares when faced with garbage collection.
20:21:34 -!- tswettbot has joined.
20:21:54 -!- tswettbot_ has joined.
20:22:26 <tswett> Well, they don't seem to be entirely dead.
20:23:14 <tswett> They shall stay until you figure out the right phrase.
20:24:47 -!- tswettbot has quit (Client Quit).
20:24:47 -!- tswettbot_ has quit (Client Quit).
20:25:04 <tswett> Is that like "hooray" but with a J instead of an A?
20:28:52 <olsner> alternative spelling of george
20:29:41 <oerjan> in theory, so is oerjan
20:30:37 <olsner> and iirc the swedish göran is yet another variant of that name
20:31:08 <olsner> which is basically just oerjan with the j sound moved to the beginning: joeran
20:31:17 -!- cheater7 has joined.
20:31:49 <oerjan> i'd hazard a guess it was originally moved the other way
20:32:45 <cheater7> and what way was it guessed to have been moved?
20:32:56 <cheater7> and why would you hazard this guess of yours?
20:33:22 <oerjan> http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sankt_G%C3%B6ran
20:34:36 <olsner> oerjan: oh, but that's the swedish wikipedia :/ you should probably double-check anything you read with one of the real wikipedias
20:34:48 <oerjan> that article hides the fact that's identical to "george" rather well
20:35:04 <oerjan> olsner: um i was just linking to point out all the different name versions
20:35:08 <elliott> i'm gonna call oerjan göran from now on
20:35:28 <oerjan> http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_ridderen has a different set again :D
20:35:37 <oerjan> olsner: see the no. one
20:36:18 <oerjan> http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joris_(heilige)
20:36:27 <cheater7> someone in ##linux wants to install multiple linuxi into the same top directory structure
20:36:39 <oerjan> i'd expect the german one could use jürgen but it seems to be just georg
20:36:48 <Yahweasel> cheater7: What does that even mean?
20:37:04 <cheater7> Yahweasel, it means that you share /bin, /usr and all that stuff across linuxi
20:37:30 <olsner> oerjan: both swedish and norwegian had jörgen/jørgen
20:37:37 <Yahweasel> cheater7: Do you mean "distributions" or "kernels"?
20:37:59 <oerjan> <cheater7> and why would you hazard this guess of yours? <-- because the original form of the name is greek georgios
20:38:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Things that annoy me: people thinking silicon-based biochemistry means a lump of silicon crystal.
20:38:37 <olsner> or hmm, you didn't actually disagree that jörgen was a known alias, maybe I imagined that one
20:38:55 <cheater7> Phantom_Hoover, but what about the sentient crystals i've seen in ecco the dolphin and in aquaria?
20:39:19 <cheater7> olsner, btw the german name is jurgen.
20:39:28 <oerjan> <cheater7> and why has a j moved? <-- because both ørjan and göran (with the g pronounced as j) are forms of the same name
20:39:38 <olsner> cheater7: I know, that's why I wrote jürgen
20:40:02 <olsner> jörgen is the scandinavian version
20:40:18 <oerjan> cheater7: see the swedish link above, they're all listed as variations for the swedish name of st. georg
20:40:26 <olsner> it's georges all the way down
20:42:05 -!- cheater7 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:42:23 -!- cheater7 has joined.
20:42:30 <oerjan> <cheater7> is that like goran bregovic <-- it seems not, wp says "In the South Slavic languages, Goran translated means "woodsman", "the man from the mountains" or "highlander""
20:42:40 <cheater7> i think i'll just call oerjan นักบุญจอร์จ.
20:44:19 <olsner> and here's the motherload: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_(given_name)#Other_language_variants
20:44:25 <cheater7> Or Geordi, which apparently is also an option.
20:45:37 <cheater7> this name has thousands of funny variants
20:46:25 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> Things that annoy me: people thinking silicon-based biochemistry means a lump of silicon crystal. <-- well i have read silicon has problems with stability in water solutions so maybe it _would_ work better as something crystallic. or wait was that arsenic instead of phosphorus...
20:47:02 <Phantom_Hoover> But crystalline biochemistry is not what is meant by silicon-based.
20:48:10 <oerjan> indeed, i guess that's just a scifi meme
20:48:56 <elliott> oh m god ounchomg jeys with two fingfwrs inly is the best way tot type rver
20:48:59 <oerjan> ...if you _could_ have crystallic life forms, that could just as easily (or more) be carbon-based
20:49:14 <cheater7> i like the chinese version is Qiozh.
20:49:31 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, well, silicon crystallises more readily than carbon.
20:50:09 <elliott> can we all just agree that salt is the best thing to happen to the human race
20:50:23 <cheater7> i want liquid crystal based lifeforms
20:50:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Because Homestuck is quite clearly the best thing to happen to the human race.
20:53:20 -!- Yahweasel has changed nick to Gregor.
20:54:42 <cheater7> so we have three george's here
20:54:45 <Gregor> Bleh. BNCs suck for naming consistency :P
20:55:09 <Gregor> If you rearrange nearly all the letters in my name, I become "Georg"!
20:55:24 <olsner> you probably are a georg already
20:55:32 <cheater7> i thought gregor was also a george?
20:55:59 <cheater7> ok, i guess that leaves us with just two
20:56:13 <Gregor> From the Late Latin Gregorius, a cognate of the Greek Grēgorios (vigilant, a watchman), which is derived from the verb egeirein (to awaken).
20:57:10 <Gregor> Rarely, but in particular not right now; when you see my nick change, that means I just logged on on a new system :P
20:58:37 <Gregor> And Yahweasel (my TRUE true name) isn't derived from "George" at all!
20:59:16 <olsner> yahwe is obviously also a form of george
20:59:22 <olsner> or the other way around
20:59:59 <Gregor> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YHWH :P
21:01:28 <oerjan> Gregor: the reason why you don't seem to insult many is because the jews are strictly forbidden from mentioning your nick, so they cannot complain. duh.
21:01:55 <Gregor> oerjan: They don't have to explicitly state my nick to complain about it :P
21:02:23 <elliott> this is just proof that all jews hate each other because they're bankers
21:02:40 <oerjan> yeah but how would know it's _you_ their complaining about then? duh.
21:02:48 <elliott> and also because they like blowing up the world trace center
21:03:11 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Yahweasel.
21:03:26 <Yahweasel> OK, all accessible clients now reconfigured :P
21:03:36 <Phantom_Hoover> <Gregor> Bleh. BNCs suck for naming consistency :P ← BNCs?
21:04:14 -!- crystal-cola has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:04:24 <elliott> Borderline Nigger Crackers.
21:04:28 <elliott> They're crackers with faces on them.
21:04:32 <elliott> The faces are... BORDERLINE niggers.
21:04:32 -!- crystal-cola has joined.
21:04:49 <elliott> And they all have different names.
21:05:57 <oerjan> samba, coffee and nilsson
21:06:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Dammit elliott what have I said before about making me look like a neonazi sympathiser.
21:08:32 -!- crystal-cola has quit (Changing host).
21:08:32 -!- crystal-cola has joined.
21:11:22 <elliott> oerjan: what do Nords call spanners?
21:11:26 <elliott> apparently danes call it a Swedish key
21:11:46 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/05/2008-04-14_Chrome-Vanadium_Wrenches.jpg
21:12:28 <oerjan> fastnøkkel, or skiftenøkkel if it's adjustable
21:12:33 <elliott> Yahweasel: I don't care how you pronounce wrench, it's a terrible word.
21:12:44 <elliott> oerjan: Does that translate as "Danish key" please say yes.
21:13:03 <elliott> Vorpal: olsner: What do Swedes call spanners/wrenches
21:13:41 <oerjan> no, fast = fixed, skifte = moving, shifting
21:13:43 <olsner> elliott: "blocknyckel" apparently
21:13:53 <elliott> olsner: does that translate as "Norwegian key"
21:13:59 <olsner> oerjan: fast keys and shifty keys
21:14:28 <olsner> elliott: nope, block means block, and nyckel means key
21:15:11 <oerjan> umbrakonøkkel for those weird hexagonal ones
21:15:36 <oerjan> oh it's supposed to be n, not m
21:16:14 <oerjan> says wikipedia, but none of the other links :D
21:17:25 <oerjan> oh actually unbrakonøkkel has more hits, but umbrako has so many google doesn't try to suggest it's wrong
21:17:46 <olsner> elliott: and adjustable ones are called skiftnyckel in swedish too... note that skift is not to be confused with Skifs (that's something completely different: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEwNOWUA4yo)
21:19:20 <olsner> oerjan: aah, insexnyckel!
21:19:54 <oerjan> apparently some of the confusion is due to uMbrako being a genuine trademark for unbrako keys
21:20:38 <oerjan> olsner: MISSING WIKIPEDIA LINK
21:20:55 <elliott> you scandinavians. so weird.
21:21:01 <olsner> oerjan: plzzzz, my link is on your wikipedia link
21:21:26 <olsner> that is, the wikipedia link you didn't send but I found otherwise
21:21:56 <olsner> http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insexnyckel
21:22:31 <oerjan> olsner: oh, i must have misspelled it when googling
21:22:33 <olsner> "(or sexkantnyckel)" .. for added humor value kant is pronounced a lot like cunt
21:23:09 <oerjan> olsner: well i guess elliott cannot possibly honestly complain about the name insex-
21:23:35 <olsner> for a long time I thought the name was insektsnyckel
21:23:35 -!- zzo38 has joined.
21:24:15 <zzo38> Does it ever in Jeopardy game show that two or all three players are out before the final round?
21:25:14 <olsner> hmm, how would you get eliminated?
21:25:52 <olsner> otoh... nm, I don't know how jeopardy works anyway
21:26:05 <zzo38> When the second round is finish, everyone with zero or negative score is out and cannot play the final round.
21:26:21 <oerjan> olsner: so do swedes frequently have sexkantsex, i wonder
21:26:54 <zzo38> But usually no player is out, sometimes one player is out, I have never seen two or three players out.
21:28:30 <oerjan> olsner and i are not different personas of the same group mind at _all_
21:29:06 <olsner> what do you mean? we can't be the *same* persona
21:29:28 <oerjan> yes but the group mind is insane, of course
21:30:10 <oerjan> hypothetically speaking, since it certainly does not exist. that's absurd.
21:30:11 <olsner> insanity: the only sane choice for a group mind
21:30:38 <olsner> or the most sane anyway?
21:31:09 <oerjan> well only sane implies most sane, that's logic
21:31:36 <zzo38> How can it be? You have to learn both, but that doesn't make insanity a sane choice, it doesn't make sense. Nor does it make sanity a insane choice, I think?
21:32:15 <oerjan> zzo38: it cannot make sense if it's insane, duh
21:32:28 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, that is why it is the case.
21:32:53 <oerjan> but insanity can easily think it's sane
21:33:18 <oerjan> ...i think the opposite is also possible in some cases.
21:33:27 <zzo38> oerjan: In that case, it makes you delusioned instead, then. Being delusioned (usually) does not make it true.
21:33:41 <zzo38> Actually it never makes it true.
21:33:54 <zzo38> But in rare cases it is true anyways, it just doesn't make it true.
21:34:11 <oerjan> contradicting the group mind _might_ get you deluged. see: Noah.
21:34:48 <oerjan> (although it's promised not to do that again.)
21:35:23 <zzo38> Next time is going to be with acidic fire!
21:35:48 * tswett writes in his shopping list.
21:35:54 <tswett> Which color of dragon confers acid resistance?
21:36:13 <oerjan> tswett: see latest iwc annotation
21:36:23 <zzo38> I won't let you buy any dragon. The reason for that is: we don't sell that.
21:36:28 <oerjan> presumably the one which can make acid
21:36:45 <tswett> Oh, you can't get acid resistance by eating dragons.
21:38:46 <olsner> heh... my thue compiler has a single two-line comment, it describes the simplest line in the program and 15 times as long as that line
21:39:06 -!- azaq23 has joined.
21:39:08 <olsner> (the line is s/\?/Q/g)
21:39:56 <oerjan> of course you can buy dragons. just don't expect a good deal http://www.airshipentertainment.com/mythcomic.php?date=20101002
21:40:53 <zzo38> If you buy the dragon, can I buy you? I promise if that happen I *must* allow dragon buying me.
21:41:04 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:41:32 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
21:42:38 <oerjan> <tswett> Oh, you can't get acid resistance by eating dragons. <-- hm there ought to be some spell that makes it work, like tribal cannibals supposedly believed it does...
21:43:01 <tswett> You can get acid resistance by eating dragons. NetHack is incorrect.
21:43:05 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:43:07 <zzo38> Do you have any tribal cannibals spellbooks?
21:43:29 <oerjan> no, this is from absorbed folklore, not games
21:43:36 <olsner> my wordpress plugin doesn't highlight sed properly either :(
21:43:45 <zzo38> olsner: Then fix it, please.
21:44:16 <zzo38> Do you have any absorbed folklorist spellbooks?
21:44:34 <olsner> I googled for "geshi sed highlighting" and found my own complaint about geshi not doing sed highlighting
21:46:23 <elliott> I bet pygments does sed...
21:46:51 <zzo38> I turn off syntax highlighting in vim usually because it does things wrong, CWEB syntax highlighting is a bit wrong, and for many systems, in some files, can be wrong that syntax highlighting system will work it badly in some cases, such as, with TeX you can change category codes and in Forth you can also do various things with the input file
21:47:49 <zzo38> But, a proper syntax highlighting program should work good with C and C++ and so on.
21:48:11 <olsner> elliott: "... and it highlights even Brainf*ck!" sounds promising :)
21:48:49 <olsner> but sed is not in the list of languages on the home page
21:49:04 <zzo38> Brainfuck highlighting is also simple possible. But some programming languages that it doesn't work.
21:49:26 <olsner> am I like the only person in the world that occasionally writes stuff in sed?
21:49:53 <zzo38> olsner: No. I do too sometimes (when working on Linux, that is). And so do other people, too.
21:50:39 <zzo38> But, with Forth, it should be able to do make it when reading the words from the input file, also do prettyprinting (and indexing and so on) simultaneously with that, now it is formatting correctly. But it cannot be formatted without executing!
21:52:29 <zzo38> And TeX acts like that too. METAFONT however, is simply syntax without any of these things that makes it mixed up in strange circumstances.
21:56:35 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:59:29 <zzo38> Did you notice I added a section in my user page in esolang wiki?
22:00:18 <oerjan> micahjohnston: i made you a shorter quine
22:01:06 <olsner> oerjan is the part of the group mind devoted to shortening quines
22:01:10 <oerjan> !slashes /<\>/[\\\\]\\\\\\//P1/<>/<<>\><>/[<>\<>\<>\<>\]<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>1<>/P<>2<>/<>/P<>0<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>\]<>/<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>\<>\2<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>\]<>/<<>\><>\<>\<>/P<>0//P0/P1//[\]/\\//P\\2/P1//[\]/<\>\\/P0
22:01:12 <EgoBot> /<\>/[\\\\]\\\\\\//P1/<>/<<>\><>/[<>\<>\<>\<>\]<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>1<>/P<>2<>/<>/P<>0<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>\]<>/<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>\<>\2<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>\]<>/<<>\><>\<>\<>/P<>0//P0/P1//[\]/\\//P\\2/P1//[\]/<\>\\/P0
22:02:18 <oerjan> i tend to use <> as the internal quoting. although here i used [] temporarily because it was easier not to confuse strings that way
22:02:52 <elliott> oerjan: hmm, could a quine get any simpler?
22:02:55 <micahjohnston> is it two characters so you can put escapes in the middle and then copy it so it turns itno itself?
22:03:04 <elliott> defining a /// quine as a non-empty program with at least one / or \ that outputs itself
22:05:19 <oerjan> <micahjohnston> y u no work <-- it loops, you cannot substitute directly with something which contains the original string
22:05:59 <micahjohnston> is there any way to turn /asdf/jkl;/qwer into \/asdf\/jkl;\/qwer ?
22:06:26 <oerjan> elliott: i don't know if it could get _much_ simpler, although there might be a couple characters to shave off
22:07:03 <oerjan> micahjohnston: not if you mean replacing all / without looking at the context
22:08:21 <oerjan> there were a couple i wanted to check, in fact
22:08:52 <oerjan> !slashes /<\>/[\\\\]\\\\\\//P1/<>/<<>\><>/[<>\<>\<>\<>\]<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>1<>/P<>2<>/<>/P<>0<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>]<>/<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>\<>\2<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>\]<>/<<>\><>\<>\<>/P<>0//P0/P1//[]/\\//P\\2/P1//[\]/<\>\\/P0
22:08:53 <EgoBot> /<\>/[\\\\]\\\\\\//P1/<>/<<>\><>/[<>\<>\<>\<>\]<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>1<>/P<>2<>/<>/P<>0<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>]<>/<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>\<>\2<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>\]<>/<<>\><>\<>\<>/P<>0//P0/P1//[]/\\//P\\2/P1//[\]/<\>\\/P0
22:09:33 <oerjan> !slashes /<\>/[\\\\]\\\\\\//P1/<>/<<>\><>/[<>\<>\<>\<>\]<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>1<>/P<>2<>/<>/P<>0<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>]<>/<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>\<>\2<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>\]<>/<<>\><>\<>\<>/P<>0//P0/P1//[]/\\//P\\2/P1//[\]/<\>\\/P0
22:09:34 <EgoBot> /<\>/[\\\\]\\\\\\//P1/<>/<<>\><>/[<>\<>\<>\<>\]<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>1<>/P<>2<>/<>/P<>0<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>]<>/<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>\<>\2<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>\]<>/<<>\><>\<>\<>/P<>0//P0/P1//[]/\\//P\\2/P1//[\]/<\>\\/P0
22:09:46 <elliott> there's a \ missing in the output
22:10:12 <oerjan> elliott: funny guy, but that's why i did the second one
22:10:27 <oerjan> which was with the output of the previous one
22:11:55 -!- cheater7 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:12:31 <oerjan> <micahjohnston> is it two characters so you can put escapes in the middle and then copy it so it turns itno itself? <-- yep precisely, as you noticed you cannot substitute single chars without wiping them out from the program
22:14:13 <oerjan> elliott: well that got two chars shorter by removing an unnecessary escape.
22:15:55 <oerjan> !slashes /<>/[\\\\]\\\\\\//P1/<>/<<>><>/[<>\<>\<>\<>\]<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>1<>/P<>2<>/<>/P<>0<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>]<>/<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>\<>\2<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>\]<>/<<>\><>\<>\<>/P<>0//P0/P1//[]/\\//P\\2/P1//[\]/<\>\\/P0
22:15:57 <EgoBot> /<>/[\\\\]\\\\\\//P1/<>/<<>><>/[<>\<>\<>\<>\]<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>1<>/P<>2<>/<>/P<>0<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>]<>/<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>\<>\2<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>\]<>/<<>\><>\<>\<>/P<>0//P0/P1//[]/\\//P\\2/P1//[\]/<\>\\/P0
22:16:08 <oerjan> !slashes /<>/[\\\\]\\\\\\//P1/<>/<<>><>/[<>\<>\<>\<>\]<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>1<>/P<>2<>/<>/P<>0<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>]<>/<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>\<>\2<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>\]<>/<<>\><>\<>\<>/P<>0//P0/P1//[]/\\//P\\2/P1//[\]/<\>\\/P0
22:16:09 <EgoBot> /<>/[\\\\]\\\\\\//P1/<>/<<>><>/[<>\<>\<>\<>\]<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>1<>/P<>2<>/<>/P<>0<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>]<>/<>\<>\<>/<>/P<>\<>\2<>/P<>1<>/<>/[<>\]<>/<<>\><>\<>\<>/P<>0//P0/P1//[]/\\//P\\2/P1//[\]/<\>\\/P0
22:17:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:19:44 <elliott> fizzie: Please explain: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHReqKRvonE
22:21:41 <crystal-cola> I should probably just go to bed but I really want to stay up and work
22:24:26 -!- augur has joined.
22:25:32 <oerjan> i see no more quotes or escapes to shave off
22:26:30 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:26:31 <oerjan> it's really about the same structure as the /\ only one, afair
22:26:47 <oerjan> just much clearer, obviously
22:27:13 -!- elliott has joined.
22:27:28 <oerjan> 00:25 oerjan> it's really about the same structure as the /\ only one, afair
22:27:28 <oerjan> 00:25 oerjan> just much clearer, obviously
22:29:13 <oerjan> (not to mention almost the same as a main loop)
22:37:12 <olsner> sweet, embedding the RTS in the compiler was dead easy
22:38:26 <olsner> yeah, it was surprisingly easy to output constant strings :P
22:45:58 <elliott> mgjfjfjfjfjfjfjffjfjghfjewialzmxncbvghtyrujdm\
22:50:22 <elliott> <sdtyuiol,mnbgvfdewrtuiop;l.kjhgrftyuikuytrewsetdyrfugihojpknpihyutuyrdxsertwestdfxcgvbhn;kjklohuy9tyurktjdyhrgfcnhbjknkl;'[]\
22:50:48 <oerjan> elliott must have had a uninitialized memory error
22:55:09 <zzo38> Why did(n't) you stop beating your wife?
23:11:14 <elliott> 11:28:38 <ais523> anyway, attack/defend/fool are the scissors/rock/paper of BF Joust, I think
23:11:14 <elliott> 11:28:50 <ais523> although writing good defence programs is /hard/
23:11:14 <elliott> 11:28:58 <ais523> at least, as far as I could tell
23:11:14 <elliott> 11:29:04 <ais523> and a good attack can normally break through them
23:11:59 <crystal-cola> do you just read logs when nobody is chatting?
23:12:34 <zzo38> What can you do with program that combine two or three of these features?
23:12:47 <elliott> crystal-cola: I read logs independently of that :P
23:14:53 <elliott> crystal-cola: random, of course
23:15:01 <elliott> I've been half-considering reading every log in order, though :P
23:15:27 <zzo38> I read whatever log I am currently interested in, which depends on circumstances.
23:22:24 <elliott> 12:24:18 <ais523> which means that you can have aleph-one cooling power, but only aleph-zero noise
23:25:45 <olsner> grr, wrote about all my recent developments on Thue in mod_rewrite but forgot to write that it can now run hello world
23:25:52 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:26:00 <olsner> and didn't even mention the 10% bug
23:27:12 <elliott> olsner: smilies have infected your code
23:27:20 <olsner> zzo38: the interpreter almost printed hello world, but each character was wrong by ~10% - as in the ascii number of each output character was about 10% less than the expected one
23:27:38 <elliott> olsner: i still think that's the greatest bug of all time :)
23:27:44 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: A king without a subject would be an anomaly.).
23:28:24 <Sgeo> So, people who privately pretend to be kings are anomalies?
23:28:34 <Sgeo> Hmm, define "king"
23:28:38 <Sgeo> Ok, I'm being weird not
23:29:20 <elliott> implying you were ever not weird
23:30:09 <MDude> I'm gonna say a king is a guy who ended up at the top of a feudal heirarchy.
23:30:22 <MDude> In fact I just did.
23:37:27 * oerjan calls the TSA to perform a thorough immigration search on MDude
23:38:01 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:38:37 <oerjan> although i vaguely recall seeing MDude speak before
23:38:58 <MDude> I think I didn't say anything earlier.
23:39:20 <MDude> Though Freenode is telling me this nickname is registered, so maybe some other MDude was here before?
23:40:26 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:41:26 <elliott> maybe MDude is the true inventor of Esme
23:41:30 <elliott> I'm just throwing theories around here
23:41:36 <oerjan> registered 3 weeks ago, are you sure you weren't the one doing it?
23:42:13 <MDude> I registerd on the wiki, is there some automatic connection between the databases here?
23:42:18 <elliott> oerjan: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=EsoInterpreters&curid=2229&diff=22237&oldid=21408 is this appropriate?
23:42:32 <elliott> EsoInterpreters seems primarily about the interpreter loops to me
23:42:39 <oerjan> MDude: oh did you edit the wiki? maybe that's what i recall
23:42:40 <elliott> if a language can't implement the other languages there
23:42:40 <MDude> Maybe someone grabed up the name when they saw me on the wiki for whatever reason.
23:42:42 <elliott> it shouldn't be on the page
23:42:47 <elliott> because it'll always have a blank row or whatever
23:42:55 <MDude> Yeah, I edited the Mechanique page.
23:44:10 <oerjan> elliott: oh. that's appropriate, should have been done ages ago
23:44:26 <elliott> oerjan: It seems weird to have a language on there that cannot implement any of the others.
23:44:35 <elliott> It seems like the rows should be identical to the columns.
23:44:52 <oerjan> ok maybe "usable for programming" should be a requirement
23:45:14 <elliott> maybe we should have another table for unusable ones
23:45:19 <elliott> I would say TC, but Befunge-9three is on there
23:45:30 <oerjan> elliott: except several of those there already have no i/o
23:45:42 <elliott> it's a bit of a mess of a page...
23:45:47 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:47:09 <oerjan> elliott: for one thing, it may encourage people to make more deadfish interpreters ;D
23:47:25 <elliott> oerjan: we're going to have to start inventing languages just to make more Deadfish interpreters
23:48:05 <elliott> what, there's no implementation in C++ templates
23:48:21 <elliott> hey, they can use native integers
23:48:35 <olsner> so deadfish can't interpret anything but some stuff can interpret deadfish?
23:48:47 <elliott> olsner: deadfish can't do shit :P
23:48:55 <elliott> Everything that can breathe can interpret Deadfish.
23:49:10 <elliott> Commands: i for increment, d for decrement, s for square, o for output.
23:49:14 <elliott> there's just one number those all apply to
23:49:19 <elliott> if the number's less than zero, it's set to zero
23:49:27 <elliott> if it's exactly two hundred and fifty six, it's set to zero
23:49:32 <elliott> (but not if it's /over/ that)
23:49:39 <elliott> ((subtle point of the spec a lot of people miss))
23:49:55 <oerjan> olsner: but it's fun because it gives other nearly but not completely useless esolangs something they can actually do
23:50:05 <elliott> crystal-cola: You just don't appreciate the power :P
23:50:52 <olsner> thue is underrepresented though, I need more X'es in that row if I want to run it in my favourite thue environment
23:51:36 <elliott> olsner: well there's http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deadfish#Thutu and also one in slashes
23:51:56 <elliott> Just want to give a big thanks to all contributers and to all those who have worked on Deadfish in any way possible. I didn't think Deadfish would make it even this far! Great job! I must move on now to bigger projects though... Use the esolang wiki as your up-to-date resource on Deadfish since it's doing a better job then my archive and plus it's better this way! :-) - JTS
23:52:26 <olsner> there are only two languages (claims that page) that have been implemented in thue, but I guess the page probably isn't fully updated either :)
23:52:35 <elliott> Time to write some C++ templates.
23:52:39 <oerjan> crystal-cola: basically we don't know how much of deadfish is truly intentional and how much is bugs in the original interpreter, but the game as i play it is to implement it as closely as reasonable, warts and all
23:52:55 <olsner> elliott: deadfish interpreter in templates?
23:52:57 <elliott> oerjan: Technically it should be limited to, say, thirty-two bits :P
23:53:02 <elliott> oerjan: Since the C implementation is.
23:53:10 <elliott> But then the Python implementation isn't...
23:53:15 <elliott> Oh well, IMPLEMENTATION LIMITATIONS
23:53:17 <oerjan> elliott: well C doesn't _specify_
23:53:26 <elliott> oerjan: True, but it can't be a bignum.
23:53:35 <oerjan> elliott: and the python implementation doesn't allow multiple commands per line either
23:53:35 <olsner> elliott: pretty sure you can do arbitrary-precision stuff in templates regardless of the sizes of int and stuff
23:53:57 <elliott> olsner: you can, but I'm going to use native integers for elegance and simplicity
23:54:15 <oerjan> elliott: your scheme implementation handles eof, that's clearly not allowed ;D
23:54:24 <elliott> oerjan: it handles it buggily, I think :)
23:54:35 <elliott> but fixing it would make it more ugly, so meh
23:54:44 <oerjan> i thought i checked it today and it actually halts...
23:55:11 <elliott> can someone say two for me
23:55:47 <olsner> time to go to sleep while I'm my helpfullest
23:56:30 <elliott> I think it's just structs and functions, right?
23:57:03 <elliott> I might have to use peano numbers olsner
23:57:10 <elliott> because otherwise it'd compute the value at runtime maybe??
23:57:54 <oerjan> elliott: i've been thinking that if the esointerpreters page grows much more it needs to be split somewhat. perhaps even turned into a graph although that makes it hard to edit.
23:59:21 <elliott> g++-4.5 -Os -Wall -Wextra -std=gnu++0x deadfish.c++ -o deadfish
23:59:21 <elliott> deadfish.c++:9:44: error: ‘::value’ has not been declared
23:59:21 <elliott> deadfish.c++: In instantiation of ‘const int I<End>::Result<0>::value’:
23:59:21 <elliott> deadfish.c++:14:37: instantiated from here
23:59:21 <elliott> deadfish.c++:9:46: error: dependent-name ‘R:: Result’ is parsed as a non-type, but instantiation yields a type
23:59:22 <elliott> deadfish.c++:9:46: note: say ‘typename R:: Result’ if a type is meant