00:00:58 <Sgeo> I'm in love with Judas, Judas
00:01:38 <Sgeo> (Actually, the character's fairly boring, IMO. Portrayals of him in other fiction, though, tends not to be)
00:27:31 -!- Guest59242 has changed nick to Gregor.
00:29:28 <Lymia> http://www.xamuel.com/formula.php?program=fibonacci
00:29:47 <Lymia> Somebody make a Brainfuck interpreter in this.
00:48:25 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:05:47 -!- augur has joined.
01:08:23 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
01:27:17 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
01:27:18 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
02:22:23 -!- iconmaster has quit (Quit: Pardon me, but I have to go die in NetHack again.).
03:03:53 -!- elliott has joined.
03:14:23 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep.
03:17:36 <Lymia> http://www.xamuel.com/images/piequals4.png < Anybody mathy enough to say what the actual final result of this process would be?
03:18:50 <oerjan> um the length is always 4, and the set in a sense converges to a circle. it's just not the right sense of convergence to preserve length.
03:25:27 <elliott> jotesrlgeritg9jdkjjruvgchvcn uizhvd<vfjh,b cvm.,kxdgvnbxjimdv chm gsehjk kbvjbk cvxc jvx jv fgjm cvmcnkdn gc nbx jhds kjjkjherqkm hd saikgfkdlv gmkx jd fdgks gfjd ksbsvew bgk rc bncc xjzp
03:27:43 <Sgeo> Smalltalk has weaknesses?
03:28:02 <Sgeo> I fail to see how things like dynamic typing and single-dispatch are...
03:28:04 * pikhq_ finally bothered reading in-depth about git...
03:28:12 <pikhq_> And my reaction is something along the lines of "That's it?"
03:28:14 <Sgeo> You know wat, I should probably not comment on articles before I read them
03:29:56 <coppro> it seems so obvious, doesn't it?
03:31:21 <coppro> Really, the brilliant thing is the staging index
03:31:43 <coppro> the rest is pretty mundane
03:31:49 <pikhq_> And meanwhile I *still* don't understand any of the design choices in SVN. :P
03:32:07 <coppro> (and far superior to, say, Perforce's model of dealing with multiple edits at once)
03:33:19 <coppro> the ability to branch as needed is nice too, but that's basically a consequence of being distributed and not a major design choice
03:37:20 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
03:45:45 <oerjan> at least we'd know what to blame, then
03:49:05 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Quit: hagb4rd).
03:49:25 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
03:53:48 <elliott> im going to update ubuntu for the lulz
03:55:08 <oerjan> IM IN U BUNTU UPDATING UR LULZ
03:57:11 <elliott> oerjan can i have a lot of caffeine
04:03:34 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Yahweasel.
04:03:54 <elliott> yah, uh, please stop being a weasel
04:04:13 -!- Yahweasel has changed nick to Gregor.
04:04:28 <oerjan> it would be ironic if the first person to become _seriously_ insulted by that nick was Plazma
04:05:10 <Sgeo> In an online game once (before I became atheist), someone logged on with the nick Adonai. He was on the opposite team. I was distressed enough by this that I left.
04:05:25 <elliott> I really need to ignore Sgeo.
04:05:34 <elliott> Can someone please type an asterisk, an exclamation mark, and an at sign.
04:05:53 <oerjan> hm i hadn't absorbed that Sgeo was jewish
04:07:17 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
04:07:18 -!- pikhq has joined.
04:18:20 <oerjan> the cursing of the keyboard challenged
04:18:35 -!- lambdabot has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
05:02:38 <elliott> "A lot of the bloom-forming algae are incredibly slutty"
05:20:22 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
05:22:47 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
05:40:23 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
05:46:18 <elliott> ubuntu upgrade update the ubuntu logo next to "Applications" is now a broken image sign
05:46:51 <elliott> also, i appear to have lost my flash plugin.
05:48:14 -!- pikhq has joined.
05:48:19 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
05:51:18 <elliott> pikhq have you everugpgraded an operating systseme...
05:52:48 <pikhq> elliott: Sounds like Ubuntu sucks.
05:53:07 <elliott> I'm pretty sure it's just because everything's changed, wrt. GNOME and Unity.
05:53:14 <elliott> Oh wow, my volume control icon just changed.
05:53:23 <elliott> Why does it even let you be in graphical mode while it does this.
05:53:39 <elliott> It is just a recipe for lol.
05:53:58 <elliott> HI DEBCONF OMG WHAT DO YOU WANT TO KNOW~
05:54:04 <pikhq> ... It's replacing GNOME 2 with GNOME 3 & Unity *on the fly*?
05:54:17 <elliott> I am not even sure if it is GNOME three?
05:54:27 <elliott> It might be: GNOME three but with gnome-panel and metacity/compiz.
05:54:39 <elliott> But yes, it is doing things on the proverbial fly.
05:54:40 <pikhq> If it's using GTK 3, it's GNOME 3.
05:54:58 <elliott> Anyway, it's not like Debian wouldn't let you do this either, if you ran the updater.
05:54:58 <pikhq> And yes, there's a GTK 3 now.
05:55:06 <elliott> It's just that Ubuntu does it all the time. :p
05:55:15 <elliott> Sweet, it's updating bcc, the sixteen-bit ELKS compiler.
05:55:23 <elliott> I'm so glad that has a new version.
05:55:24 <pikhq> It's that Debian does breaking changes rarely outside of testing.
05:55:39 <elliott> pikhq: Stable GNOME two -> stable GNOME three.
05:55:39 <pikhq> Erm, testing/unstable
05:55:42 <elliott> This is a distribution upgrade, dude.
05:55:59 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, I was referring to that.
05:56:08 <pikhq> Aaand Debian does extensive testing of upgrades.
05:56:15 <elliott> I'm not sure how this is "breaking" anything, though.
05:56:17 <pikhq> And tells you "fucking stop X".
05:56:25 <elliott> It's just that the location of the Ubuntu logo for the panel has moved and --
05:56:29 <elliott> Look at that, I just got the updated one.
05:56:30 <pikhq> (apt doesn't, the documentation does)
05:56:58 <elliott> I think I might be running Firefox Three with Firefox Four files now.
05:57:02 <pikhq> Shame almost nothing does atomic updates. But oh well.
05:57:17 <elliott> coppro: It isn't finished yet. And why the caps.
05:57:40 <coppro> elliott: because for the love of god
05:57:56 <pikhq> coppro: apt is currently running.
05:57:59 <pikhq> Hence the weird shit.
05:58:10 <elliott> This is science, you don't appreciate science, go fuck yourself. I will now refuse to reboot for the next ten minutes.
05:58:40 <elliott> Aww it hasn't updated Firefox yet it seems, just its icon.
05:58:46 <elliott> Wanna get the two versions running simultaneously.
05:59:06 <elliott> "Replace the customised configuration file /etc/grub.d/[thirty]_os-prober'?"
05:59:08 <elliott> Difference between the files:
06:00:57 <elliott> aszxrolp[;lotrdjiotresjiopknllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll jgvyitcyvhjb nkyutfibugotrbyuogtgyu
06:01:01 <elliott> I AM ABUSING MY KEYBOARD FOR SCIENCE
06:01:22 <elliott> You went away without asking me anything :(
06:02:19 <pikhq> Oh, don't worry about it.
06:02:35 <pikhq> It was just wondering whether you wanted to turn on the automated kitten-kicker.
06:02:40 <pikhq> You answered "yes".
06:02:56 <elliott> Well, that's how all Apple laptops work.
06:03:19 <elliott> They've engineered the kittens to be completely flat, and to have no audial way to express their pain.
06:04:46 -!- Cheery has joined.
06:04:53 <pikhq> Damned efficient power source, though.
06:05:28 <Sgeo> I'd <NSFW joke here>
06:06:17 <Sgeo> ....that came out worse than I intended. Despite not actually saying anything.
06:06:44 <elliott> upgrades always feel so nasty, compared to clean installs; i'm going to blame this on bad OS design, like everything
06:07:35 <elliott> in an internal chrome file
06:07:41 <elliott> because the file no longer exists
06:07:46 <elliott> ok this is officially too crazy
06:08:01 <elliott> (this made it unable to load a page)
06:08:48 <elliott> good bye obsolete packages
06:09:17 <Cheery> I sense smell of despair
06:09:31 <elliott> there's no possible way this update will work without problems
06:09:32 <Cheery> oh btw I changed the name of my file format
06:09:37 <Cheery> they're not cockfiles anymore
06:09:54 <Cheery> I don't tell what do those stand for.
06:10:14 <elliott> maybe it's for Themostboringnameever
06:10:25 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
06:10:36 <elliott> or wait it's for Thisfileisacockfile
06:11:45 <Cheery> it's free comic book day tomorrow, except that no-one holds it here in my country
06:12:41 -!- zzo38 has joined.
06:12:48 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
06:12:59 <zzo38> Yes, it is [not] true!
06:13:12 <fizzie> The .t extension is already used by, among others, terse -- the bestest way to *leverage* (8086-asm) programmer *productivity* evar, now for only $49.00 -- http://www.terse.com/
06:13:23 -!- elliott_ has joined.
06:13:30 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
06:13:38 <monqy> what the fuck did you do
06:13:52 <Cheery> fizzie: I think I could go far as occupy .c -extensions.
06:13:58 <fizzie> You broke it; now you buy a new computer.
06:14:05 <pikhq_> Cheery: You could start it.
06:14:13 <pikhq_> Cheery: Surely they have comic book stores in Finland.
06:14:22 <elliott_> fizzie: Oh man, terseEXCLAMATION MARK
06:14:28 <elliott_> grub should be written in terse.
06:14:31 <elliott_> then it would fit into the boot sector.
06:14:52 <monqy> 100% Satisfied Customer Base!
06:15:04 <zzo38> No it shouldn't be written in terse - because there is no Free compiler of terse (as far as I know).
06:15:39 <zzo38> (But if there was, it wouldn't matter much if they did use their version because what is important is it is being compatible.)
06:15:48 <elliott_> oerjan: make zzo38 stop promoting vicious lies.
06:16:15 <zzo38> elliott_: Do you think it is lies? What one is lies?
06:16:23 <elliott_> everyone is free in the new world of terse
06:17:32 <elliott_> guess I'll burn an Ubuntu install CD later and try again from scratch?
06:17:36 <Cheery> terse is actually a good one.
06:18:01 <elliott_> I'm going to assume this is some new definition of "good" of which I was previously unaware.
06:18:53 <Cheery> elliott_: it looks nice.
06:19:04 <elliott_> fizzie: Can I borrow your palms?
06:19:11 <elliott_> I don't think I have enough to place on my face. :/
06:19:21 <fizzie> The nicest things ever, yes: eax - 10 ? =={ eax = 1; },{ eax = 0; }; dx = 1000; { dx-; }<>;
06:19:26 <fizzie> See, you can read that without the manual.
06:21:47 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:21:51 <Cheery> but it still has couple nice properties for the hand-written assembly language.
06:21:51 <elliott_> Seriously how did GRUB just brick itself.
06:22:26 <Cheery> okay. now this just sucks. :)
06:22:55 <Cheery> so this guy sells not an assembler but something like.. assembler that writes out assembly.
06:23:14 <Cheery> " generates .ASM files as its output. I did this to assure you compatibility with whatever development tools you may be using. You continue to use the same operand syntax you are already familiar with.
06:23:51 <Cheery> maybe it looks good to me because I think of it as an assembly notation
06:24:34 <elliott_> maybe i'll install Windows Me on this here macbook instead of fixing ubuntu
06:24:35 <fizzie> I can't find the OPTOMIZED trademark from the USPTO search thingie. :/
06:24:37 <monqy> apparently the word OPTOMIZED is a trademark of the terse dude
06:24:51 <monqy> I am so slow today
06:24:56 <elliott_> fizzie: He OPTOMIZED the trademarking process.
06:25:04 <elliott_> fizzie: Instead of actually trademarking it, he just says it's trademarked, so nobody dares to use it.
06:25:05 <Cheery> except that kind of notation will NOT work well with tri-arity instruction sets that are more common than x86-style bi-arity ones.
06:25:11 <monqy> http://www.terse.com/pics/topyello.gif
06:25:32 <elliott_> I WANT MY UNTBUNU BACK ;______;
06:25:41 <monqy> http://www.terse.com/notprog.htm
06:25:57 <Cheery> lose weight with torso.
06:25:59 <elliott_> maybe this would be a great opportunity to back up my shit and send this laptop for repairs...
06:26:15 <elliott_> guys let's put the optomized logo on all our sites ;D
06:26:25 <elliott_> i'm gonna make so much software
06:26:33 <zzo38> It is true, it is not bad; even it could have macros and (switchable) optimization (I don't know if it has), but problem is proprietary software with no Free compatible software. Even then, I would use it only for software specifically for x86 computers (such as, MBR programs). Application program I would use C or whatever
06:28:08 <monqy> http://www.terse.com/neildeal.htm
06:28:39 <fizzie> "If your favorite software vendor isn't using TERSE and displaying the TOP logo on their products, send them an E-Mail and tell them you deserve the quality that TERSE can add to their products." -- worth a Ubuntu/Mozilla/any-other-large-project brainstorm/wishlist/whatever item?
06:28:52 <Cheery> so much for a parser and substitutor ^^
06:29:00 <Cheery> damn he has a business idea to say the least.
06:29:54 <Cheery> I could also write 200 lines of code and sell it 50 bucks a license
06:29:54 <fizzie> http://getsatisfaction.com/mojang/ "PLEASE USE TERSE, WE DESERVE IT"
06:30:40 <Cheery> or microsoft style. If I had enough money I could hire 200 coders to write 200 lines of useful code and sell it for 300€ per license.
06:32:10 <elliott_> time to make a bullshit openid
06:33:11 <elliott_> idontwanttogiveyouanemail@ivaluemyprivacy.nothankyou
06:33:22 <elliott_> http://getsatisfaction.com/mojang/topics/minecraft_is_not_written_in_terse
06:36:25 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
06:40:08 <elliott_> UBUNTU COME BACK TO ME THIS IS SO PAINFUL.
06:42:48 -!- FireFly has joined.
06:43:01 -!- FireFly has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:48:08 -!- augur has joined.
06:51:34 <fizzie> elliott_: Hey, your problem got a reply from God. That's: impressive.
06:51:50 <elliott_> Oh, I thought you meant Notch.
06:52:04 <elliott_> This is... much less interesting than that would have been.
06:52:37 <elliott_> fizzie: You should click that "I have this problem" button, I might add.
06:54:37 * oerjan tests and finds out that fungot _does_ censor DCC output
06:54:37 <fungot> oerjan: lucky bastard :) but i didn't give the impression that you want to
06:54:53 <elliott_> it censors lots of things, including love
06:55:33 -!- NihilistDandy has joined.
06:56:05 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
07:01:26 -!- lambdabot has joined.
07:01:31 <elliott_> ^ul (<CTCP>DCC SEND startkeylogger 0 0 0 0<CTCP>)S
07:01:31 <fungot> <CTCP>DCC SEND startkeylogger 0 0 0 0<CTCP>
07:02:22 <pikhq_> Is it bad that my attitude towards tests ends up being "Hmm, test coming up. Better learn the subject matter."?
07:02:23 <oerjan> elliott_: hey i was _trying_ to give fizzie time to fix it...
07:02:39 <elliott_> oerjan: I apologise for my independent testing.
07:03:00 <fizzie> I haven't seen a startkeylogger nonsense in years.
07:03:40 <fizzie> I think I used to filter all control characters at some point, though I've forgotten if it was just the ^bf . command or something more generic.
07:03:42 <oerjan> @so whistles innocently
07:03:45 <pikhq_> fizzie: That was 2006. You are getting nostalgic about 5 years ago.
07:04:07 <elliott_> fizzie: Well, you'd better take fungot down until it's fixed...
07:04:07 <fungot> elliott_: ha ha starship troopers and i think orange, earlier, but i
07:04:09 <fizzie> 5 years is half a decade.
07:04:26 <pikhq_> And a relatively short span of time.
07:04:58 <pikhq_> Of course, you're talking to a guy who considers 1990 "hardly any time ago". ... And I was *born* in 1990.
07:05:45 <fizzie> fungot: Are you going to do the responsible thing and quit or what?
07:05:45 <fungot> fizzie: " willfully providing inaccurate or false information. never mind. it needs a c library for implementing history editing etc mini-icon " toolbar" for my befunge variant... good? i proceeded to write a macro for defining abbreviations.
07:06:07 <elliott_> fizzie: Shhh, Plazma is watching.
07:06:42 -!- fungot has quit (Quit: OKAY OKAY you don't have to get all BENT OUT OF SHAPE).
07:09:06 <oerjan> so exactly what is the necessary part of the hack, does it have to be \1DCC SEND startkeylogger + some numbers exactly?
07:09:31 <oerjan> i mean i _still_ think it would be sad to disallow \1ACTION :(
07:10:14 <pikhq_> oerjan: It's just the string "startkeylogger" over DCC, I think.
07:10:20 <elliott_> It's DCC SEND [long enough string].
07:10:25 <elliott_> I would just refuse to say anything with "\[one]DCC" in it.
07:10:34 -!- cheater666 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
07:10:41 <pikhq_> And the "hack" was that Norton would detect it as a "hacking" attempt, and then drop the IRC connection.
07:10:44 <elliott_> Disallowing CTCPs entirely is throwing the baby out with the bathwater, except that the bathwater evaporated five fucking years ago jesus this is not a problem any more.
07:11:32 <oerjan> pikhq_: oh heh it's not _actually_ a security flaw, but an excessive _prevention_ of a security flaw? :D
07:12:04 <elliott_> If you have a five year old version of Norton that you have not updated,
07:12:08 <fizzie> ISTR that Norton's silly firewall just looked for the word; it was possible to just say it on-channel in a regular way and have people drop.
07:12:14 <elliott_> Then a specific string that is seen maybe once every three w-
07:12:19 <elliott_> fizzie: It's something to do with the string length, apparently.
07:12:28 <elliott_> Note: This is Urban Dictionary-sourced information, which is I know ridiculous.
07:12:31 <fizzie> And there's another malformed-string-request thing that affects some routers; http://nullroute.eu.org/~grawity/startkeylogger.html
07:12:38 <elliott_> -w, not w, years, once every three years,
07:12:43 <elliott_> THEN your IRC connection could get dropped.
07:13:22 <elliott_> So it's two separate bug scombined.
07:13:52 <fizzie> By our bugs combined, I am, Captain Startkeylogger.
07:14:24 <fizzie> Makes more sense that way, admittedly.
07:14:40 <elliott_> startkeylogger startkeylogger startkeylogger
07:14:45 <pikhq_> Huh, didn't think a non-American would really know of that.
07:15:00 <elliott_> OK, \[one]DCC SEND = zero; startkeylogger = one.
07:15:15 <fizzie> They showed Captain Planet (maybe even dubbed?) in Finland too when I was young.
07:15:36 <pikhq_> Just a bit surprised is all.
07:15:47 <pikhq_> Figured it was too shitty to export. :P
07:15:49 <elliott_> It's internet-famous, everyone knows it.
07:16:01 <pikhq_> Oh, true, it definitely did break out into the memosphere.
07:18:13 <elliott_> jpofboijkijooijfoijogjoggjoigjeroigerigksngjkngejkrsngkdflgkmsefndkflnsngkjnfkvjrngrjkbkfverbkjef letters are pretty; also, i want my ubuntu back
07:18:37 <olsner> I haven't heard of it, what's captain planet and why does it make "captain startkeylogger" funny?
07:18:49 <fizzie> Heh, Sting was one of the voice actors in it; didn't know that.
07:18:49 <fizzie> Anyhow, our "channel 3" (the first "commercial" channel) showed it in 1991, according to fi-Wikipedia; and it doesn't seem they bothered to dub it.
07:20:00 <fizzie> olsner: Captain Planet's slogan -- when he appears after the Planeteers combine their rings -- "what kind of stupid power is Heart anyway?" -- is "by your powers combined, I am Captain Planet".
07:20:19 <fizzie> olsner: And it doesn't exactly make it funny, just free-associating from elliott's "two bugs combined" comment.
07:20:33 <elliott_> I think that Captain Planet should be the written in Terse language for good.
07:21:20 <olsner> so Captain Planet is something like the power rangers' combined form?
07:21:38 <pikhq_> Apparently it didn't hit Sweden in olsner's childhood.
07:21:45 <fizzie> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CaptainPlanetAndThePlaneteers -- triplicate trope namer and all.
07:21:56 <pikhq_> olsner: If the Power Rangers had no actual abilities.
07:22:16 <pikhq_> Just magic rings which mostly could summon Captain Planet.
07:22:37 -!- cheater666 has joined.
07:23:24 <fizzie> They could do some other stuff with the rings too, each related to their corresponding element. Usually they tried something, failed miserably, then ended up (approximately once/episode) summoning Captain Planet to take care of it.
07:23:37 <fizzie> Somehow this was supposed to teach that we're all responsible for the environment.
07:23:39 <elliott_> Qbiabawibwibiwbeiiueqiebiquebuiqiuqeiqwiewqieqwieqweiqweuiqwuqweiqueiiqeiwqueiqwieqwieiwqeiweiqweqiwwww.
07:23:53 <Sgeo> fizzie, just like Power Rangers! Except Power Rangers had their aesops external to the story
07:24:30 <Sgeo> Erm, and uh, power rangers didn't summon some .. thi... ok, analogy I'm lost. Also, elliott unignored me for some reason.
07:24:47 <pikhq_> Sgeo: The Power Rangers certainly did summon things.
07:25:16 <pikhq_> From Japanese television (no, really, they reused the CG from a Japanese TV show)
07:25:28 <Cheery> I thought power rangers was that one where they summoned a big fallos to fight for them.
07:25:37 <elliott_> Isn't Power Rangers just a super-loose adaption of a Japanese show?
07:25:50 <pikhq_> elliott_: If by "super-loose" you mean "they reused the CG".
07:25:53 <Sgeo> My point was, Power Rangers also did a once-an-episode ... thing
07:26:25 <pikhq_> elliott_: Curiously, the dub of Power Rangers is also fairly popular in Japan.
07:26:40 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Quit: hagb4rd).
07:26:42 <pikhq_> No, but David Hasselhoff is in Germany.
07:27:59 <fizzie> "Once you go tentacle, you stay in the pentacle." --isometric.
07:29:18 <olsner> isometric? wasn't that a hemingway quote?
07:29:47 <fizzie> http://isometric.sixsided.org/strips/you_dont_go_back/ is the particular strip in question.
07:30:15 <elliott_> "That's crap[exclamation mark] Your a priori skycastles will avail us nothing[exclamation mark] More datapoints are called for[exclamation mark] The scientific method my good man[exclamation mark][inverted exclamation mark]9[three][four]" --Ernest Hemingway
07:30:17 <fizzie> "lorum ipsum dolor sic amet but in this case you'll wish you did" always makes me smile.
07:32:36 <elliott_> `UBUNTU YOU BETTER START DOWNLOADING QUICKER. I HAVE HAD IT UP TO HERE WITH YOUR BULL SHIT.
07:32:44 <elliott_> IT IS SHIT THAT COMES FROM A BULL AND IT IS UP TO HERE THAT I HAVE HAD IT WITH.±
07:50:53 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:54:57 <elliott_> "One way seems to be to put some muscle behind the company’s native dev tools, like Visual C++. I noticed a brief mention in Somasegar’s e-mail of “WinC++.” It turns out that the new name for Visual C++ is going to be WinC++ — something confirmed by a Microsoft job posting which mentions the “Windows C++ a.k.a. Visual C++ team.”"
07:57:06 <olsner> yeah, there's a reason they didn't call it FailC++!
08:00:23 <oerjan> FailC++ is however the obvious choice for LoseThos
08:03:58 <elliott_> every time I think oerjan has come close to expressing an actual opinion, I realise it's a pune :D
08:11:00 -!- siracusa has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
08:11:27 <elliott_> Terrence Andrew Davis I ordered a couple of these. Hopefully, I can get LoseThos working with USB (on my PC) for this one device. One device should be easy, especially, if I can control both ends. I already ported my 8051 assembler to LoseThos (on my PC).
08:12:11 -!- siracusa has joined.
08:13:10 <elliott_> [[When I started in 2003, security was big news and I was designing a system with no defence against malware. Since I had no real interest in doing network code myself, I went ahead and said no networking to hush security obsessed paranoid people.
08:13:10 <elliott_> I really don't have any ideas on making a better browser and I think doing a network "stack" (as the kids say) is difficult. I have a feeling there are propriatary Microsoft network protocols involved?
08:13:11 <elliott_> I respect Bush for being a man of his word, if nothing else, and I hope to be a man of my word. You can do networking. By the way, the "constitution" started as "promises" but that spounded gay.]]
08:14:42 <oerjan> gay spounding is all the rage
08:28:08 -!- pikhq has joined.
08:28:09 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
08:37:24 <elliott_> fizzie: Forget God, I've got a response from NIVLAC.
08:44:04 -!- cheater_ has joined.
08:54:45 -!- elliott_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
09:19:56 <fizzie> In other news, started fungot's tweeting side again, since the IRC side is temporarily silent.
09:19:59 <fizzie> [2011-05-09 10:57:49] Tweeted: About NetHack: into a locked shop. both arboreal and terrestrial, the beautiful warrior-maids of odin who rode through the vorpal blade... (fungot)
10:03:51 -!- elliottjog has joined.
10:03:55 <elliottjog> "Code.tar.gz contains an executable file. For security reasons, Google Mail does not allow you to send this type of file."
10:04:29 <oerjan> elliott is impressive, ircing while jogging
10:05:17 <elliottjog> such is the magic of bashing random keys
10:05:29 <elliottjog> so yeah i'm reinstalling all up in this bitch
10:06:58 -!- elliottjog has quit (Client Quit).
10:21:49 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
10:45:59 -!- elliottjog has joined.
10:46:24 <elliottjog> This Unity thing doesn't seem as bad as the last time I used it.
10:48:24 -!- elliottjog has quit (Client Quit).
11:04:11 -!- elliott has joined.
11:04:27 <elliott> I am, however, not sure I can go so far as to tolerate it.
11:06:05 <elliott> Indeed it is simply too different for my fragile mind right now.
11:06:46 -!- elliott_ has joined.
11:06:46 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
11:07:09 -!- elliott_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
11:07:36 -!- elliott has joined.
11:07:55 <elliott> Ahhhh, good old shitty GNOME.
11:08:45 -!- elliott has quit (Client Quit).
11:08:52 -!- elliott has joined.
11:12:25 <elliott> Starting to agree with Vorpal's policy of avoiding non-LTS relea I DIDN'T EVEN FUCKING CLICK THAT WINDOW WHY ARE YOU FOCUSING IT
11:13:56 <elliott> I am finding it very hard to come up with reasons to not reinstall the previous version.
11:15:28 -!- NihilistDandy has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com).
11:21:33 <elliott> DEAR GOD WHAT DO YOU THINK CLICK SENSITIVITY IS MEANT TO BE.
11:21:40 <elliott> I CAN LIGHTLY BRUSH ON THIS TOUCHPAD AND YOU THINK IT'S A CLICK.
11:21:47 <elliott> I'M GOING TO INSTALL THE OLD VERSION.
11:44:55 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
11:47:46 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
11:47:48 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
12:05:27 -!- ineiros has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
12:10:48 -!- ais523 has joined.
12:30:35 -!- elliottog has joined.
12:31:02 <elliottog> ais523: friendly tip: natty narwhal is amazingly bad in pretty much every way, both Unity and Gnome
12:31:13 <elliottog> amazingly bad enough that i've just clean-install-downgraded
12:31:34 <ais523> elliottog: thanks; I was being cautious about upgrading because I guessed something like that might happen
12:31:40 <ais523> but a confirmation is good
12:31:56 <ais523> I'm going to wait for the next LTS, and then to use it if it's decent, or change distro if it isn't
12:32:02 <elliottog> it's possibly better if you're not on a laptop -- the touchpad handling was just awful, I could be typing normally and it'd decide I clicked
12:32:14 <elliottog> I have no idea how they managed this feat
12:32:27 <elliottog> and Unity still just feels awkward
12:32:55 -!- pikhq has joined.
12:32:57 <elliottog> ais523: unfortunately, wrt changing distro, now that gnome three's out you get the whole other world of pain known as gnome shell
12:33:11 <elliottog> I /think/ gnome-panel and metacity are still distributed with gnome three though
12:33:12 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
12:33:18 <elliottog> so it's possible to avoid that... for now
12:33:49 -!- azaq23 has joined.
12:34:04 <elliottog> dear linux world: between unity, gnome three, and kde four, you have singlehandedly managed to completely redesign the desktop thrice, and each time fail utterly at it. please go back to ripping off Microsoft, it was far more productive
12:35:14 <ais523> KDE 3 is still being maintained
12:35:21 <ais523> not by the KDE people, it was forked
12:35:45 <ais523> I'm trying to work out how nibbles was screwed up so badly, in the meantime
12:35:50 <elliottog> ais523: unfortunately, KDE Three isn't the environment I'm interested in
12:35:56 <elliottog> GNOME Two is; it's always been mediocre, but grahgerghriegherhgierhi all this new shit is terrible
12:35:58 <ais523> I fixed all its major bugs in singleplayer a while back (by sending patches to the maintainers)
12:36:07 <ais523> but lots of bugs seem to have crept back in
12:36:22 <elliottog> I might see if I can keep this installation longer than cpressey did without upgrading :)
12:36:28 <ais523> hmm, what about a gnome 2-like shell running on gnome 3? would that be an option?
12:36:34 <elliottog> he was on a two thousand and six release this year, I think
12:37:02 <elliottog> ais523: Yes, until gnome-panel and metacity bitrot, that's a good option.
12:37:07 <elliottog> ais523: (I mean, an /acceptable/ option.)
12:37:15 <elliottog> ais523: But it can't be long until GTK API changes break it.
12:37:27 <ais523> we'll have to keep porting gnome-panel, then
12:37:28 <elliottog> And they've explicitly said they don't give a shit about maintaining them any more.
12:37:32 <ais523> I can use Compiz rather than Metacity
12:37:52 <elliottog> ais523: I was going to try and maintain gnome-panel/metacity up to bitrot; I guess I still will.
12:37:52 <ais523> in fact, I prefer Compiz, although Metacity is tolerable
12:38:16 <elliottog> Compiz would be nice if it wasn't for all the bugs, and the fact that development-wise it's more focused on wibbly-wobbly than using compositing to do useful things.
12:38:31 <elliottog> I feel this is more relevant than ever, wrt GNOME Three: http://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html
12:39:25 <ais523> elliottog: I find the opacity/brightness/saturation contrast control massively useful
12:40:57 <ais523> although even per-screen is useful
12:41:07 <ais523> as my laptop doesn't have very fine controls for that
12:41:27 <ais523> in fact, the laptop's builtin brightness control makes no visible difference, and it doesn't have contrast controls
12:41:31 <elliottog> i'm tempted to start using OS X more rather than resign myself to gradually-bitrotting software here
12:41:31 <ais523> (and ofc opacity is only useful per-window)
12:41:46 <elliottog> at least Apple's regular let's-fuck-up-the-entire-interface bouts are /predictable/
12:41:51 <ais523> I fear OS X will end up going the same way too
12:42:00 <ais523> and Windows will instead fall to fragmentation
12:42:02 <elliottog> it has been going the same way since like five years ago
12:42:08 <Sgeo> Linux Mint is sticking with GNOME 2, I think
12:42:13 <ais523> when it tries to run 10 different windowing paradigms at once and you can't follow it any more
12:42:14 <elliottog> but with OS X, it does it in predictable ways
12:42:22 <ais523> Sgeo: that's good in itself, as it implies they'll maintain it
12:42:26 <ais523> whether you use it or not
12:42:43 <elliottog> whereas Linux desktop redesign is in fact the only source of true random numbers in the universe
12:43:07 <elliottog> ais523: anyway, Xfce still exists, and is pretty much Gnome Two except slightly different
12:43:19 <elliottog> it seems like the most practical migration path
12:43:27 <elliottog> especially since it fits in fine with gnome programs
12:43:43 <ais523> I'm not very experienced with desktop environments other than the Big Two
12:43:57 <ais523> although I can tolerate KDE 4 (assuming the bugs have been fixed since I last looked at it)
12:44:01 <elliottog> not having number keys is so great
12:44:11 <Sgeo> Not sure if I trust them to keep maintaining it though, or if they'll eventually surrender, or just write their own thing, or what
12:44:34 <ais523> using an existing open source project is normally easier than just writing your own thing
12:44:40 <elliottog> KDE Four is, I think, what happens when you take the typical "We need to change... EVERYTHING... it isn't about consequences... it's about PROGRESS" session, and try and "keep the spirit of KDE",
12:44:57 <elliottog> but you think the spirit of KDE is "it looks different to GNOME and has a large raw number of settings"
12:45:00 <elliottog> and then you still manage to fuck it up
12:45:16 <Zwaarddijk> I find KDE4 has removed all the useful settings, though
12:45:22 <ais523> unless your own thing is either trivial (where reimplementing it tends to be faster than finding a library that does what you want and disabling the features you don't need, then checking to see if it does exactly what you want), or really bizarre
12:45:26 <elliottog> Zwaarddijk: yep, but it still has a lot of them[exclamation mark]
12:45:42 <ais523> when I last used KDE 4, I couldn't find the settings manager at all
12:45:47 <ais523> I think there was some sort of bug that hid it
12:45:52 <elliottog> OK, time to restart to get a resolution that isn't six-forty by four-eighty
12:46:01 <elliottog> I think what I might do is try the new Xubuntu release sometime
12:46:04 <elliottog> it can't be as bad as Ubuntu proper
12:46:15 <elliottog> and it has a GNOME Two-esque configuration of Xfce
12:46:19 <ais523> any idea /why/ Ubuntu's going down the Unity route?
12:46:31 <elliottog> ais523: because GNOME Shell is /really/ terrible
12:47:04 <ais523> so Unity is an attempt to write a new shell from scratch because the one that was being suggested to them was bad
12:47:09 <elliottog> so since they had a launcher-manager-thing already...
12:47:11 <ais523> and they screwed it up, but not quite as badly as Gnome did?
12:47:13 <elliottog> ais523: nope, it was created for the netbook edition
12:47:21 <elliottog> OK, they might have planned this in secret
12:47:29 <elliottog> but publicly, it was "Hey, we're going to use the netbook one for the desktop version too."
12:47:46 <ais523> hmm, I wonder how good ReactOS' implementation of the Windows shell is?
12:47:51 <elliottog> and I'm not sure whether they screwed it up more; I can't use Unity, but I don't know whether that's a personal failing or bad design
12:48:04 <elliottog> I doubt they could screw it up /more/ than GNOME Shell
12:48:06 <ais523> it'd run flawlessly in Wine, on the basis that ReactOS and Wine share libraries
12:48:13 <elliottog> Which was designed entirely around making nice short Vimeo screencasts
12:48:22 <elliottog> Demonstrating entirely fictional scenarios with PRETTY transitions
12:48:34 <elliottog> ais523: I think I've tried that before
12:48:36 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
12:48:43 <elliottog> ISTR not working perfectly because Wine doesn't expect you to pull shit like that
12:48:52 <elliottog> I seriously need a higher resolution, I'm rebooting
12:48:54 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
12:49:03 -!- elliottog has quit (Quit: Page closed).
12:51:07 -!- elliottugh has joined.
12:51:17 <elliottugh> I think I changed my mouse acceleration settings before. ugh.
12:52:14 <elliottugh> remind me never to clean install anything ever
12:52:25 <ais523> elliottugh: did you not at least keep dotfiles?
12:52:41 <elliottugh> ais523: No, but then I didn't really have many, since the previous install was fairly new anyway
12:52:47 <elliottugh> ais523: Remember that this started as a botched upgrade
12:52:55 <elliottugh> Then it turned into a "well, I'll get a livecd of the newest version to fix the bootloader"
12:53:04 <elliottugh> Then it became "fuck it, might as well back up my code folder and do a clean install"
12:53:12 <elliottugh> Then it became "THIS IS TERRIBLE HOLY SHIT I'm reinstalling the old version".
12:53:38 <ais523> you didn't back up your whole homedir, minus really large things like downloaded tarballs and unpacked gcc source trees?
12:54:01 <elliottugh> everything I produce is either somewhere on the internet or in my code folder, pretty much
12:54:10 <elliottugh> and the full backup would have been gigabytes upon gigabytes upon gigabytes
12:54:20 <elliottugh> and since my backup mechanism was to email the code tgz to myself...
12:54:41 <ais523> hmm, I think this is another argument not to go around pirating things, they just take up space on your hard drive
12:55:01 <elliottugh> You... realise that happens with legitimate media too?
12:55:16 <elliottugh> And you also realise that the purpose of a hard drive is to get filled up with things?
12:55:18 <ais523> elliottugh: indeed, but there isn't much of it to go round
12:55:30 <elliottugh> Specifically, things that you wish to consume/store?
12:55:30 <ais523> and normally I stream it rather than download it
12:55:40 <ais523> the purpose of a hard drive is to save things you want to keep around
12:55:52 <ais523> things to store, /not/ things to consume (those work just fine in /tmp or streaming)
12:55:53 <elliottugh> You can stream pirated stuff too, it's just nobody does that because it'd inherently be a pain in the ass
12:56:19 <elliottugh> ais523: You have confused "what I think hard drives are for, in a stunning feat of circular argument" with "what hard drives are for"
12:56:25 <ais523> you can save them in a swapfile for a while
12:56:33 <ais523> which is technically using the hard disk, but abstracted awauy
12:56:50 <ais523> elliottugh: well, in that case, why don't you delete temporary files when you've finished using them?
12:57:02 <ais523> it'd make backups easier for no detriment at all
12:57:41 <ais523> files that you won't need again after you've shut down your computer
12:58:25 <ais523> "things that you wish to consume/store"
12:58:40 <ais523> implying that there were things you didn't want to store that you used the hard drive for anyway
12:58:46 <ais523> otherwise you wouldn't need both halves of the sentence
12:58:50 <elliottugh> You have clearly misinterpreted the slash.
12:59:18 <ais523> I'd word that as "things that you wish to store (perhaps to consume later)"
13:02:12 -!- elliottugh has quit (Quit: Page closed).
13:02:48 -!- FireFly has joined.
13:07:43 -!- elliott has joined.
13:08:19 -!- pikhq has joined.
13:08:44 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
13:09:05 -!- elliott has quit (Client Quit).
13:09:12 -!- elliott has joined.
13:09:13 -!- elliott has quit (Client Quit).
13:09:22 -!- elliott has joined.
13:09:48 <elliott> feels like a hospital without the various tweaks I did to my previous installation
13:12:11 -!- ineiros has joined.
13:13:50 <elliott> hmm, if I am going to switch to Xfce, I should capitalise on the opportunity while I'm still without OS-related baggage
13:16:14 <ais523> elliott: you do realise that the DCC SEND stuff in the topic is wrong, right?
13:16:46 <ais523> (hmm, I wonder why I just assumed the topic was made by you without checking)
13:18:27 <ais523> should be four zeros, separated by spaces, at the end
13:18:55 <ais523> it exploits two bugs; one is a bug in an AV product (triggered by "startkeylogger"), the other is a bug in attempts to DCC to 0 0 0 0 with a sufficiently long string given as the name
13:19:00 <ais523> umm, or was it three zeros?
13:19:10 <elliott> firstly, it's just any sufficiently long name /or/ zeroes
13:19:16 <elliott> look there was an article about it in the logs before
13:19:20 <elliott> what's in the topic would work just fine
13:19:24 <ais523> well, that's what was explained to me last time it came up (but it wasn't in this channel)
13:19:36 <elliott> anyway it's a reference to egobot/hackego being forced to take down because of it
13:20:20 <ais523> egobot was taken down because someone was dcc sending keyloggers?
13:25:10 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if Firefox can be set to accept and reject cookies at random?
13:25:14 <ais523> I want to see which websites break, and how badly
13:27:47 <elliott> I wonder if Debian will install OK on this
13:28:57 <elliott> although xfwm has that annoying bug still
14:00:01 -!- ais523_ has joined.
14:00:05 <cheater_> http://lauren.vortex.com/censorship-governments-google-white-paper-05-04-2011.html
14:00:13 <elliott> ais523_: stop cloning yourself
14:00:22 <ais523_> elliott: connection trouble again
14:00:32 <ais523_> I had the desktop booted already in case this happened
14:01:15 <ais523_> (it's a little ironic that I am provided with a quad-core desktop so that I can do my job, but instead do it on a single-core netbook and use the desktop just for printing and IRC)
14:01:30 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
14:02:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
14:05:12 -!- ais523 has joined.
14:12:54 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
14:13:12 -!- ais523 has joined.
14:18:02 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
14:20:26 -!- ais523 has joined.
14:25:03 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
14:27:05 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude.
14:33:30 <ais523> what shell does debian use?
14:34:44 <ais523> (if you say dash, I will get annoyed)
14:40:08 <elliott> ais523, why would that annoy you?
14:41:04 <ais523> I mean desktop environment shell, by analogy with Gnome Shell or Windows Explorer
14:44:02 <elliott> ais523: time to put on my Pedantic Weirdo hat
14:44:14 <elliott> ais523: The official Desktop Environment of the Debian Operating System is GNOME.
14:44:27 <elliott> however, you can literally untick it at install-time
14:44:37 <elliott> and the boot loader has options to install with KDE/Xfce
14:45:10 <ais523> elliott: you should buy a Pedantic Weirdo hat for Gregor, it'd go with all his other hats
14:45:33 <elliott> its not something you can buy its something youre born with
14:45:56 <ais523> meh, it'd work just as well as a physical hat
14:46:00 <ais523> I just need to work out what it would look like
14:54:45 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
15:01:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
15:19:34 -!- sebbu has joined.
15:19:34 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
15:19:34 -!- sebbu has joined.
15:34:50 <ais523> I just went and emailed graue
15:38:16 <ais523> the person in charge of the esolang wiki
15:38:23 <ais523> as in, with actual access to the server and the software
15:38:35 <ais523> although Keymaker and I mostly run it in practice, we don't have the permissions to change really core stuff
15:39:28 <elliott> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/w/index.php?title=Esoteric_programming_language&curid=982&diff=22726&oldid=22705
15:39:37 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
15:40:53 <ais523> I'm going to see what graue does in response to this attack
15:41:01 <ais523> I suggested he expanded the captcha to cover all anon edits
15:41:09 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
15:41:12 <ais523> but he'll probably do something ridiculous instead, like ban spelling errors
15:41:56 <elliott> <ais523> I suggested he expanded the captcha to cover all anon edits
15:42:12 <elliott> I'm fairly opposed to this because I edit as an anon quite frequently, but as a temporary measure it's probably for the best
15:43:14 <ais523> elliott: it's an easy enough CAPTCHA, you could even write a Greasemonkey script to solve it
15:43:48 <elliott> Then post it on the Internet.
15:43:54 <ais523> <floop> I'm creating a new programming language called ChrisMaple. Because programming can be hard for people to understand, it will only have 2 functions with no arguments: Stop and Go. I plan on writing a new OS in it :D
15:44:12 <elliott> where is that from, and are they serious? and if so, what is their home address?
15:44:20 <ais523> from Slashdot, and my guess is they're joking
15:44:29 <elliott> better cull them just in case
15:53:05 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined.
15:53:33 <ais523> elliott: I thought it sounded like a decent idea for an esolang
15:54:43 -!- MigoMipo__ has joined.
15:56:12 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
15:58:30 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
16:03:51 -!- monqy has joined.
16:04:24 -!- fizzie has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
16:04:28 -!- fizzie has joined.
16:07:31 <lambdabot> Im really only a bash person and even then Im tin
16:07:36 <lambdabot> I hear from an essay by E raymod that perl is shitty for large projects
16:07:43 <lambdabot> is there a decent scheduler in haskell? how about a netwrok monitor?
16:09:27 <elliott> ?so <CTCP>DCC SEND startkeylogger 0 0<CTCP>
16:09:27 <lambdabot> <CTCP>DCC SEND startkeylogger 0 0<CTCP> not available
16:09:34 <elliott> looks like lambdabot has to go down too
16:10:05 <ais523> elliott: that's just trolling, by the look of things
16:10:31 <elliott> ais523: Bots that are vulnerable to being made to print that DCC message have to be taken down until they're fixed; what's trolling about that?
16:10:39 <elliott> I remembered that ?so let you put arbitrary shit at the start of a line, so...
16:10:43 <ais523> trolling is actually making them do it
16:11:13 <elliott> We already know that nobody here is affected by it at all because this isn't two thousand and six.
16:11:16 <ais523> hmm, apparently my post makes the spambot's look feelbe
16:11:45 <ais523> bleh, I don't get what these spambots are doing at all
16:12:11 <ais523> there's no advantage from it other than wasting people's time, and I don't see why someone would waste their own resources (and what looks like a large botnet or proxy network) doing something pointless like that
16:29:28 <fizzie> (They are the experts in wasting time and resources.)
16:29:53 <ais523> I don't see why an artist would do it like that, though
16:30:15 <ais523> but I've got recent changes set up in full vandalfighting mode atm
16:31:50 <ais523> he was targeting Wikipedia in particular, though
16:31:57 <ais523> these Esolang spambots don't seem to be aware they're on a wiki at all
16:32:08 <ais523> (which is the only reason I thought the ridiculously weak CAPTCHA we have would work)
16:47:34 -!- Guest22963 has joined.
16:48:26 -!- Guest22963 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:55:03 <ais523> any connection with the wiki, I wonder?
16:55:10 <ais523> also, did it get to do any spamming before being thrown off?
16:55:55 <elliott> it's the wiki spambot, note i have no evidence for it being a spambot
16:56:00 <elliott> but i like to think it was the wiki spambot
17:11:46 <monqy> the wiki spambots make me feel good about myself
17:11:57 <ais523> monqy: that you aren't as bad as them?
17:19:32 <elliott> how to transfer this huge file to my other disk
17:19:42 <elliott> ah, i could reformat my swap partition as fatthirtytwo
17:19:49 -!- Aune has joined.
17:19:53 <monqy> is that a good idea
17:20:36 <ais523> as long as you aren't using it for anything else at the time, yes
17:20:42 <ais523> and that you reformat the right partition
17:21:37 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:27:51 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
17:27:57 -!- pikhq has joined.
17:37:15 -!- elliott has joined.
17:53:06 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:05:27 -!- elliott has joined.
18:07:43 -!- Vorpal has joined.
18:08:41 <Vorpal> elliott, I need your computer finding expertise!
18:08:52 <Vorpal> (I decided I need to get a new desktop)
18:09:12 <elliott> okay what you want to do is buy the most expensive everything
18:09:16 <elliott> then put it in an expensive box
18:09:26 <Vorpal> elliott, Yes. But that is not what I can afford :P
18:09:36 <elliott> i was unaware you had such terrible constraints :/
18:10:13 <Vorpal> elliott, also it has to be possible to order in Sweden. IIRC newegg only takes orders from US?
18:10:35 <elliott> yep, but newegg is convenient to find things on :P
18:10:49 <elliott> actually buying them is left as an exercise to the reader
18:11:52 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
18:12:14 <Vorpal> elliott, so, I need a decent performance setup, doesn't need to be the most extreme however. And an okay case for it. I want a fairly quiet system, so variable speed fans all over if possible. And it needs at least one classical PCI slot. Other than my SB live card and my two sata hdds I'm going for all new hardware.
18:12:59 <elliott> Name a budget in a currency that isn't some backwater European economy :P
18:13:01 <Vorpal> elliott, the threads in the screwholes on my current case are worn out, so definitely a new case
18:13:05 <elliott> (A backwater North American economy is preferred.)
18:13:06 <Vorpal> elliott, let me convert it
18:13:43 <Vorpal> google says 7000 Swedish kronor = 1 111.677 U.S. dollars, though that is slightly adjustable.
18:13:56 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't know if nvidia or amd/ati is best atm
18:14:01 <elliott> That's a nice number. Lots of ones.
18:14:10 <Vorpal> so, whichever works best under linux
18:14:12 <elliott> Vorpal: Intel is the bestest as far as Linux support goes :P
18:14:17 <olsner> round that to USD1111.111
18:14:20 <elliott> But useless in the, e.g. actually doing things department.
18:14:22 <Vorpal> elliott, I need good 3D graphics
18:14:32 <elliott> Well, that's subjective :P
18:14:34 <Vorpal> elliott, I do want GPGPU stuff
18:15:10 <olsner> I think nvidia still has better linux support
18:15:13 <elliott> FWIW, I presume you want AMD
18:15:15 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't need crysis however. But minecraft on far would be nice.
18:15:35 <elliott> GETTIN' A LITTLE AHEAD OF OURSELVES HERE
18:15:37 <elliott> MIGHT HAVE TO UP THAT BUDGET
18:15:48 <Vorpal> my old system almost managed that so :P
18:16:21 <Vorpal> elliott, actually, amd/intel: don't care much. I would prefer if it didn't run way too hot (less cooling needed: nicer, also better for electricity bill)
18:16:32 <Vorpal> so that indicates intel, but then amd is cheaper
18:17:08 <elliott> Vorpal: Do you want sixteen gibioctets of RAM or twenty-four?
18:17:34 <Vorpal> elliott, err, 8 would probably be enough, but sure 16 if that is affordable
18:17:44 <olsner> I'd go for zillions of gigaquads!
18:17:46 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway for upping the budget, jokes aside, that would be possible, a bit.
18:18:08 <elliott> SIXTEEN BILLION GIGATERAS OF RAMS
18:18:13 <Vorpal> elliott, I think 24 is likely overkill. But who knows, if that meets all other requirements why not
18:18:30 <Vorpal> a nice step up from my current 1.5 anyway
18:18:35 <elliott> Time to see if SSD prices have gone down :-P
18:18:46 <Vorpal> elliott, I have SATA disks I will reuse
18:18:55 <elliott> Actually you probably have mastered the art of using more than eighty gigabytes on your OS anyawy.
18:18:59 <Vorpal> elliott, that plus my SB Live card is all the hardware I want to carry over
18:19:15 <elliott> I don't really count SSDs as storage in that sense, anyway, more internal CPU OS storage X-D
18:19:19 <Vorpal> elliott, for SSD you mean? Let me check /usr size
18:19:50 <elliott> Wow, forty gig SSD for ninety five bucks.
18:19:55 <Vorpal> I'm on my laptop, I forgot since I plugged in my desktop monitor
18:19:59 <elliott> They sure are going down .... slowly ..........
18:20:17 <Vorpal> elliott, I'll pass on SSD then, though it would certainly be nice
18:20:34 <elliott> Vorpal: How many cores do you need for your apple
18:20:51 <Vorpal> elliott, oh and the sata chipset should support that native command queue thingy (but I guess all modern systems do). My disks support it, but not my current sata chipset
18:21:02 <Vorpal> elliott, uh... more than one
18:21:15 <elliott> Six, eight, insert cheerleadering
18:21:29 <olsner> why not one of those 12-core ones from amd?
18:21:31 <elliott> I wonder what AMD's six-cores are
18:21:36 <elliott> The three-cores are four-cores with one broken core
18:21:39 <elliott> But it's not like you get seven-cores
18:21:41 -!- azaq23 has joined.
18:21:46 <Vorpal> elliott, if it comes to a RAM vs. number of cores vs. budget or such I'd prefer a balanced system within the budget :P
18:21:46 <elliott> So are they... two slightly-broken four cores stuck together?
18:21:58 <elliott> Vorpal: GOD you are so BORING.
18:22:00 <ais523> elliott: quite possibly, IIRC eight-cores are normally just made from two four-core chips
18:22:11 <Vorpal> elliott, yes, but this is a system I actually plan to BUY
18:22:21 <elliott> ais523: Surprised they don't have seven-core chips then, i.e. four core + three core.
18:22:23 <ais523> hmm, at least it isn't elliott trying to spec a system for me
18:22:27 <olsner> elliott: I believe they are actually 6-cores from scratch
18:22:33 <ais523> elliott: the oct-cores probably sell better
18:22:34 <elliott> <ais> I'm not sure I need a kilobyte of RAM.
18:22:41 <Vorpal> elliott, wrt. 12-core: maybe a slightly broken 16 core?
18:22:45 <elliott> <ais> What?? It costs TWENTY POUNDS??
18:23:05 <ais523> I'd currently aim for about 1GB of RAM on a new computer
18:23:15 <Vorpal> <ais523> hmm, at least it isn't elliott trying to spec a system for me <-- has he tried that before?
18:23:22 <ais523> mostly because the extra cost of that compared to smaller amounts is trivial
18:23:25 <olsner> (and IIRC the 12-core ones are 6 times something that's halfway between dual-core and one-core with SMT)
18:23:26 <elliott> Vorpal: No, I'm not that insane.
18:23:30 <ais523> Vorpal: no, but we can both guess how it would go
18:23:42 <Vorpal> ais523, I think I can imagine that yes...
18:23:56 <Vorpal> ais523, like: completely incompatible goals for the system :P
18:24:14 <elliott> deary me i7s, you haven't been keeping very competitive pricewise
18:24:17 <ais523> <speek> The problem with operator overloading is that the time between the implementation of op overloading as a language feature and misuse of it is roughly 68ms
18:24:25 <ais523> I'm not sure if I've abused it in INTERCAL yet
18:24:30 <Vorpal> <ais523> I'd currently aim for about 1GB of RAM on a new computer <-- also that would be annoyingly limited
18:24:33 <ais523> I mean, compared to the rest of the language
18:25:00 * elliott watches Vorpal bang his head into the brick wall that is ais523.
18:25:02 <Vorpal> ais523, I swap trash sometimes on my laptop with 4 GB.
18:25:05 <ais523> I have problems envisaging anything that would require much more than that, other than storing an entire rather long video in memory
18:25:46 <Vorpal> elliott, thank you very much for your commentary. That activity is however rather entertaining :P
18:25:55 <elliott> It's like a rubber brick wall.
18:26:18 <ais523> Vorpal: seriously, what do you use that much memory for? badly written programs? do you work with data sets that largr?
18:26:57 <elliott> Athlon IIs are so goddamn cheap, probably because they're not very good
18:27:10 <elliott> Hmm, or is the difference just that they lack Lthree...
18:27:18 <Vorpal> ais523, minecraft runs badly on my desktop with 1.5 GB RAM. Panorama stitching runs badly on my laptop with 4 GB RAM for larger (50 MP or such) panoramas
18:27:27 <ais523> I can see plausible arguments for faster CPUs/more cores (although there's a more or less practical maximum level for CPUs)
18:27:27 <elliott> "That’s the theory, at least. AMD’s recent launch of the Athlon II X4, which is fundamentally a Phenom II X4 without the L3, implies that the tertiary cache may not always be necessary. We decided to do an apples to apples comparison using both options and find out."
18:27:34 <elliott> time to read a badly-researched article
18:27:40 <Vorpal> elliott, wait what, Athlon II? Isn't that uh... 10 years ago=
18:27:42 <ais523> Vorpal: and you'd expect Minecraft to run well with, say, 3 GB RAM?
18:27:55 <elliott> ais523: it's based around a gigantic array of blocks
18:28:01 <olsner> I can imagine spending about 1GB on a source tree, Inf GB on instances of gcc compiling various parts of it, 1-2GB on a browser with every tab I've ever opened still open
18:28:01 <ais523> if something's struggling with that much memory, it's likely using a bad algorithm, and throwing more hardware at the problem won't help much
18:28:11 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, Athlon was old. Can we agree on that?
18:28:11 <elliott> ais523: Minecraft = big array of blocks.
18:28:17 <olsner> and if using an IDE, at least 2GB more for that
18:28:19 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes; companies reuse brand names.
18:28:23 <Vorpal> elliott, then came Athlon XP?
18:28:30 <ais523> elliott: well, yes, but what's the exact amount of RAM it needs to hold the whole array?
18:28:34 <olsner> you basically always need more memory
18:28:37 <Vorpal> elliott, The order, it confuses me.
18:28:50 <ais523> so you're going to run out no matter how much memory you have
18:28:55 <Vorpal> <olsner> and if using an IDE, at least 2GB more for that <-- emacs run fine without that.
18:28:55 <ais523> therefore adding more memory is pointless
18:29:05 <elliott> Vorpal: Point is, $99.99 gets you a quad-core three ghz processor gobbling ninety-five watts.
18:29:24 <Vorpal> elliott, that is more than the PSU for my laptop!
18:29:28 <elliott> ais523: err, no, it's bounded
18:29:43 <ais523> so it's actually static, eventually
18:29:47 <olsner> Vorpal: then emacs isn't an IDE
18:29:56 <Vorpal> elliott, you can't be serious that a CPU uses more than, say, 60-70 W?
18:29:59 <ais523> btw, why doesn't someone just replace Minecraft's data storage with something saner than massive array?
18:30:15 <ais523> that bit should be relatively easily abstractable, so long as it uses accessor methods correctly
18:30:23 <ais523> Vorpal: some sort of compressed structure
18:30:36 <ais523> I imagine Minecraft maps compress easily, if only because most of them will never be touched by a user
18:30:55 <olsner> Vorpal: many cpu models do
18:30:55 <elliott> do decompression and recompression sixty times per second
18:30:56 <Vorpal> yes storing a diff on disk might be a good idea at least
18:31:14 <ais523> elliott: you can use seekable compression algos
18:31:14 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, you can't be serious that a CPU uses more than, say, 60-70 W?
18:31:25 <elliott> High-end CPUs use like one hundred and twenty five watts.
18:31:28 <Vorpal> elliott, come on, my laptop PSU is on 65 W
18:31:33 <elliott> It supports laptop hardware.
18:31:34 <ais523> elliott: and need stupid amounts of cooling as a result
18:31:42 <Vorpal> elliott, and that is a nice core 2 dupo
18:31:55 <elliott> Vorpal: It's a laptop core two duo.
18:31:55 <ais523> there's a practical limit to CPU power because of that
18:32:06 <ais523> also, a low-end processor is not that much weaker than a high-end processor nowadays
18:32:11 <elliott> Vorpal: It's hard to find PSUs under four hundred watts :P
18:32:16 <elliott> ais523: Please, you're not being helpful.
18:32:17 <olsner> looks like i7 only goes up to 130W
18:32:18 <Vorpal> elliott, since I said I wanted a rather quiet system, something that doesn't run too hot might be a good idea
18:32:32 <elliott> Vorpal, Ninety five watts is downright cold for a desktop CPU as far as silencing goes.
18:32:37 <ais523> the fan on here is needed so rarely I sometimes have to start it by hand
18:32:58 <Vorpal> ais523, why do you need to start it if it isn't needed?...
18:33:11 <ais523> Vorpal: when it is needed, sometimes it doesn't start automatically
18:33:14 <Vorpal> or do you mean the bearings rusted or something insane
18:33:20 <ais523> so I have to bang on the computer case to get it to start
18:33:22 <Vorpal> ais523, so bug in the firmware?
18:33:44 <ais523> you learn the correct place to hit the computer after a bit (it's just to the left of the power button)
18:33:51 <Vorpal> ais523, I would NOT leave that computer running without supervision
18:34:04 <Vorpal> heck I wouldn't run it at all
18:34:16 <ais523> well, I wouldn't either, in case someone stole it
18:34:20 <ais523> except in a locked office or bedroom
18:34:24 <ais523> but it just shuts down if it overheats
18:34:24 <elliott> ais523 is an electrical engineer, he can handle a fire
18:34:48 <ais523> (this has become something of a running joke at my workplace)
18:34:55 <Vorpal> elliott, sometimes talking with ais523 isn't like running into a brick wall (rubber or not) but more like getting a rubber brick wall dropped on top of you
18:34:57 <olsner> electrical engineer :D
18:35:16 <ais523> olsner: both electrical and electronic exist, but do different things
18:35:41 <olsner> ais523: yes, that's why it's funny of course
18:35:41 <Vorpal> elliott, so how does the system come along?
18:36:00 <ais523> Vorpal: well, without a deterministically working fan, it overheats quite a lot
18:36:06 <ais523> mostly while watching video when I forget to start the fan
18:36:07 <elliott> Vorpal: i work slowly and meticulously
18:36:11 <Vorpal> elliott, oh and you said Athlon II were cheap? Hm, do you think they will last much longer than the warranty then?
18:36:16 <ais523> (running Windows, the fan runs at 100%)
18:36:40 <elliott> Vorpal: There's an Athlon II in this house -- only a dual core one though, and quite a low end one at that -- that's been chugging away for several years now.
18:36:44 <ais523> (on Linux, though, it only seems to run when decoding video, or doing an intentionally 100% CPU task like a brute-force search)
18:36:56 <Vorpal> elliott, so athlon II are old?
18:37:25 <Vorpal> elliott, what is the cache size? I don't want something like my sempron's tiny cache
18:37:31 <elliott> Vorpal: The name Athlon II is a few years old.
18:37:37 <elliott> Athlon II x[four]s are two thousand and nine vintage.
18:37:38 <ais523> bleh, why does Reddit value link karma more than comment karma?
18:37:42 <ais523> I mostly only read it for the comments
18:37:43 <Vorpal> elliott, AMD IS OUT TO CONFUSE ME WITH THEIR NAMING!!!
18:37:58 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, L[two] is four x 512KB.
18:38:22 <elliott> Only the Core Twos have ridiculously large Ltwos.
18:38:30 <Vorpal> elliott, so what is L3 then?
18:38:41 <Vorpal> model name : Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU P8400 @ 2.26GHz
18:38:42 <elliott> And shared, rather than per-core.
18:38:49 <Vorpal> elliott, I meant what size
18:39:04 <elliott> Like I said, Athlon IIs have none, that's the only difference between them and Phenom IIs (AMD's top end range).
18:39:18 <Vorpal> elliott, and are Phenom II expensive?
18:39:38 <elliott> They do have six-core versions though.
18:39:42 -!- Sgeo has joined.
18:39:53 <Vorpal> elliott, how much more, and I think 6 cores will be enough.
18:40:26 <elliott> Hmm, huh, the cheapest Phenom II x[four] is only nine dollars more expensive and quite a bit better... no L[three] though
18:40:30 <Vorpal> elliott, oh and another thing: gbit ethernet.
18:40:35 <Vorpal> but I guess that is standard
18:41:37 <elliott> Taking a short break to meditate[caret]W sekrit stuff.
18:41:46 <Vorpal> elliott, and what usb variant do we have
18:41:59 <elliott> That's a motherboard thing :P
18:42:04 <Vorpal> elliott, I plan to order this system day after tomorrow, probably before that
18:42:27 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm in a rather urgent need to replace my current desktop you see.
18:42:43 <elliott> What a deadline. This is like coming up to a Zen master and complaining that your meditation is taking longer than a few minutes :P
18:42:57 <elliott> Except the Zen master is just some chump with Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.
18:43:05 <elliott> And the meditation is just sitting around staring at walls.
18:43:07 <Vorpal> elliott, sounds like a wonderful idea. I'd like to see his reaction.
18:43:30 <Vorpal> elliott, yes. Lets do that once you have the specs done
18:43:44 -!- ais523_ has quit (Quit: Page closed).
18:43:56 <Vorpal> elliott, on and the GPU needs DVI-Digital out
18:44:05 <Vorpal> since that is what my monitor takes
18:44:18 <elliott> Bit busy right now though :P
18:46:47 <Vorpal> elliott, I forgot: PS/2 for keyboard, or I need to find a new nice white keyboard
18:46:54 <Vorpal> with flat windows keys
18:46:59 <Vorpal> and that sounds tricky
18:47:19 <elliott> PS/two<->USB adapters exist, you know, but it's not like PStwo is dead :P
18:47:22 <elliott> Well it is, but it still exists.
18:47:33 <Sgeo> I'd ask a question about Mercury here, but don't want to be yelled at
18:47:38 <Sgeo> So am asking in #mercury
18:47:42 <Sgeo> Which is rather quiet.
18:47:57 <Vorpal> is there a channel for each element in the periodic table I wonder
18:48:15 <Vorpal> not what you meant I guess
18:48:52 <Sgeo> You guessed correctly
18:49:33 <Vorpal> I can't find any wattage listed on my old desktop PSU
18:52:47 <Vorpal> elliott, actually I'd like to order it this evening if possible
18:52:54 <Vorpal> I guess I can go ahead on my own
18:53:23 <elliott> If you want an INFERIOR COMPUTER BE MY GUEST
18:53:40 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't want that. But I really need this system as soon as possible
18:54:49 <elliott> I've just got numerous irons in the fire at this particular point :P
18:58:51 <olsner> haha, Vorpal is building INFERIOR COMPUTER
18:59:02 <Vorpal> olsner, actually I'm waiting for elliott
19:00:25 <Vorpal> huh, AMD still uses ZIF sockets? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MSI_785GM-P45_Socket_AM3.jpg
19:12:52 -!- elliott_ has joined.
19:16:31 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:18:42 <myndzi> what's better than ZIF sockets?
19:19:24 <ais523> negative insertion force, obviously
19:19:43 <ais523> it actually even makes physical sense, it'd be a socket where you put the chip vaguely near the socket and it was automatically drawn into it
19:19:53 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
19:20:15 <Vorpal> myndzi, I'd expect BGA sockets. I guess technically they are ZIF, though they aren't called that very often.
19:20:32 <Vorpal> ais523, magnetic perhaps?
19:20:45 <ais523> Vorpal: indeed, that's what I was thinking of
19:20:53 <ais523> although magnetism + electricity often doesn't mix wel
19:20:55 <myndzi> magnetism on my circuitry? would that be wise? :P
19:21:21 <Vorpal> ais523, presumably with some sort of guiding vanes?
19:21:34 <ais523> Vorpal: I don't know, I'm not designing one of these things
19:33:24 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
19:33:31 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:35:06 <Vorpal> elliott_, I don't need new DVD drive either, if the new mobo supports PATA
19:35:15 <Vorpal> elliott_, but I'm okay with getting a new one if that is cheaper
19:35:30 <Vorpal> (such as a SATA only system)
19:47:00 -!- MigoMipo__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:47:21 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
19:56:17 <Vorpal> elliott_, I will be away most of tomorrow, and as for day after that, away a lot too
19:56:39 -!- Aune has quit (Quit: Page closed).
19:58:29 <Vorpal> cheater666, US$ 2 = 12.5447691 Swedish kronor <-- no I doubt it. More like 50 SEK for a dvd drive.
19:58:38 <cheater666> Vorpal, a BGA is not ZIF, because you're not inserting anything.
19:58:52 <Vorpal> cheater666, and a LGA?
19:58:58 <cheater666> you'd have to have something going into something else to "insert with zero force"
20:00:06 <cheater666> no, it's not "ZIF" either. there's no insertion
20:00:15 <cheater666> there's mechanical mating of flat surfaces.
20:00:48 <cheater666> ya i know but i forgot the exact mating technique
20:01:58 <cheater666> ZIF specifically refers only to sockets with a lever, which shifts a grid of halves of holes that pins go into, tightening those holes
20:03:18 <cheater666> before that became available, the pins on a processor would have to go into a socket which doesn't change in width, requiring the use of physical force
20:03:27 <cheater666> that would break CPUs which were very expensive
20:03:36 <cheater666> i think ZIFs became popular around the times of the 486
20:03:45 <Vorpal> cheater666, there are ZIF for DIP too
20:04:24 <Vorpal> cheater666, though not desktop cpus
20:04:36 <Vorpal> microchip programmers and suc
20:04:45 <olsner> I'd like to see a 2000 pin desktop CPU in a DIP capsule
20:04:51 <cheater666> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_Insertion_Force#Ball_grid_array_sockets
20:05:00 <cheater666> it seems that there are mating mechanisms that DO catch the balls
20:05:09 <Vorpal> cheater666, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Picstart_plus.jpg
20:05:25 <cheater666> but the kind of BGA socket that is popular for desktop CPUs does not use that, it uses the spring pin mechanism, which is not "ZIF"
20:06:55 <Vorpal> cheater666, because I will be at university from 08:00 to 17:00, and then I have other stuff to do after
20:07:48 <Vorpal> cheater666, ..............
20:08:37 <Vorpal> <cheater666> how is it treating you? <-- whaaat?
20:08:42 <cheater666> it isn't the mind-wringer that maths is
20:09:06 <Vorpal> what do you expect, something along the lines of "oh the FPGA is all right, not too hard on me at all :P"?
20:09:39 <Vorpal> (though I haven't used FPGAs for a while)
20:09:53 <Vorpal> well, not too hard *shrug*
20:10:22 <cheater666> there's an old saying that if everything you do works, you're not trying hard enough
20:10:29 <Vorpal> very confusing terminology there, sv:kurs = en:module in this context
20:10:32 <cheater666> try to catch all the bits of info that you get
20:10:37 <Vorpal> and en:course I think is sv:program?
20:11:08 <cheater666> if you're studying at a good uni, try getting as much done as possible
20:11:19 <cheater666> it'll be important for networking in the future
20:11:47 <cheater666> what's the coolest course in compsci for you?
20:12:29 * olsner thinks Vorpal studies Enterprise Java/C++ or something like that :P
20:12:30 <Vorpal> elliott_, night, please leave messages with memoserv. At least something like: "I said something relevant to your computer, see clog logs" or such. :)
20:12:48 <Vorpal> cheater666, compilers is during the autumn
20:13:22 <olsner> meh, you haven't done compilers yet?
20:13:50 -!- Vorpal has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net).
20:14:07 <olsner> the compiler course is probably my favourite
20:36:37 -!- ajf|offline has changed nick to ajf.
20:51:43 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
20:54:14 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Redirect all "Where is HackEgo" questions in the form of lynchings of Lymia.
21:03:42 -!- Cheery has quit (Quit: leaving).
21:07:20 <ajf> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Deviating_Percolator
21:07:28 <ajf> I still challenge someone to compile this language
21:07:32 <ajf> It is impossible
21:08:11 <elliott_> well, it's obviously not impossible, given a rigorous definition of compile :)
21:08:33 <ajf> but as the interpretation could change after each line is executed
21:08:42 <ajf> you can't really compile it
21:08:43 <elliott_> well, that's just like befunge then isn't it? :p
21:11:30 <ajf> "The language was originally created by Chris Pressey in 1993 as an attempt to devise a language which is as hard to compile as possible — note that the p command allows for self-modifying code."
21:11:39 <ajf> DevPerc can be self-modifying
21:14:49 <olsner> allowing self-modifying code doesn't really mean anything, it just makes some things a bit harder
21:15:15 <ajf> it makes full compilation impossible
21:15:34 <olsner> well, define "full" compilation
21:15:50 <ajf> where there is no interpreter attached to the resulting code
21:15:57 <ajf> or re-compiler
21:16:04 <ajf> directly compiled to machine code
21:16:33 <ajf> now, *some* DevPerc programs can be fully compiled
21:16:45 <ajf> as the modifications are known at compile time
21:16:52 <ajf> but others are dependant on input
21:17:56 <monqy> what does interpreter mean here
21:18:46 <ajf> interpreter for the language?
21:18:53 <ajf> executes based on the source code?
21:19:58 <monqy> what if part of it was compiled directly to machine code and some of it needed assistance (perhaps to look something up)
21:20:21 <monqy> there's no full interpreter, though
21:20:57 <ajf> yes but no partial interpreter
21:21:18 <ajf> it's impossible without some partial interpreter that knows the source code, with some programs
21:29:25 <ajf> it should be impossible to "compile" unless you do it how Befunge was "compiled"
21:29:30 <Lymia> What's with your implementation of numbers?
21:30:00 <ajf> the way they are all out of order?
21:31:38 <ajf> Lymia: what is your complaint?
21:32:07 <Lymia> Can't you generate that at runtime?
21:32:28 <ajf> I used a script
21:32:35 <ajf> ran it in the python interactive thing
21:32:52 <ajf> then used another script to remove stuff >255
21:33:07 <ajf> I dunno why I didn't keep that script
21:33:16 <ajf> maybe I feared it would be too slow
21:33:24 <ajf> (was very inefficient)
21:33:48 -!- ajf has changed nick to ajf|offline.
21:40:57 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:46:45 <Phantom_Hoover> "Hydrogen difluoride would imply an electrically neutral compound, HF2, which does not exist. It is isoelectronic with the hypothetical compound helium difluoride, HeF2, which also does not exist, and the fluoroheliate anion, FHeO−, whose existence is suspected."
21:54:03 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:00:23 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:01:33 <Sgeo> http://langnostic.blogspot.com/ Python, Racket, ?, Erlang, Ruby?, ..that's an emacs icon, Haskell, ?
22:01:38 <Sgeo> What am I missing
22:03:49 <elliott_> I suspect it is a reference to the Rhino JS engine, going by the sidebar.
22:04:24 <Sgeo> I still don't get why emacs is suddenly referenced in a blog about languages >.>
22:06:48 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:07:17 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
22:09:52 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:10:05 -!- clog has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:12:53 -!- azaq231 has joined.
22:13:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:13:56 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:14:28 -!- elliott_ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:15:40 -!- azaq231 has quit (Client Quit).
22:17:20 <fizzie> The ()s around the Emacs icon might be an attempt to refer to elisp.
22:30:46 -!- elliott has joined.
22:30:59 -!- elliott has quit (Client Quit).
22:35:55 -!- augur has joined.
22:36:56 -!- azaq23 has joined.
22:40:27 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
22:46:29 -!- NihilistDandy has joined.
22:46:44 -!- clog has joined.
22:59:24 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
23:33:20 <Gregor> I can never consistently remember what "NB" expands to X_X
23:48:54 -!- variable has joined.
23:53:40 -!- zzo38 has joined.
23:55:56 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:59:01 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).