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04:36:39 <Patashu> what's the difference between $ and . and not having either in haskell?
04:36:44 <Patashu> I seem to have some mental confusion over them
04:37:16 <oerjan> well you can define them easily if you don't have them
04:38:03 <copumpkin> the confusion comes from the associativity of ($)
04:39:14 <copumpkin> so on one hand, you're just doing boring function application (and avoiding a couple of parentheses in some cases)
04:39:23 <copumpkin> the other you're building a reusable "function chain"
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04:39:47 <copumpkin> and refactor the other expression to be newFunction x
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04:41:38 <Patashu> what if I said newFunction = f $ g $ h $
04:42:32 <copumpkin> you can't write sections like that
04:42:45 <lambdabot> The operator `$' [infixr 0] of a section
04:42:45 <lambdabot> must have lower precedence than that of the operand,
04:43:04 <pikhq_> What you're thinking of is more like ((f $ g $ h) $)
04:43:15 <copumpkin> also, in general the x may not be as simple as a single operand
04:43:15 <lambdabot> forall a b a1 b1. (?h::a, ?g::a -> b, ?f::b -> a1 -> b1) => a1 -> b1
04:43:53 <oerjan> it's a missing flexibility in sections that might have been useful to have
04:44:09 <oerjan> although not for that particular case
04:44:30 <oerjan> but say it's annoying to have to write ((f . g) .) instead of (f . g .)
04:46:08 <oerjan> and you might have wanted (2 + 3 *)
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04:47:54 <oerjan> (btw (. f . g) is fine, but both cannot be regardless of how you define .'s associativity)
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04:54:58 <Sgeo__> Just took 300mg melatonin
04:55:08 <Sgeo__> I know no one cares, and I don't care that no one cares.
04:55:33 <oerjan> this is a severe violation of your privacy, i'm afraid i may have to ban you
05:01:37 <pukey> 300 mg melatonin is going to make you teh greatest rockstar ever.
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05:15:01 <pikhq_> It's a bit weird having my computer actually wired up for TV watching.
05:15:30 <pikhq_> "I'm really bored... Maybe I'll watch some TV or something. [1 minute later] Oh, right, TV sucks."
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05:18:42 <pikhq_> Back to Youtube with me.
05:22:27 <Sgeo__> So, according to Harold Camping, it was a spiritual rapture, the world's ending in 5 months
05:22:51 <Sgeo__> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_apocalypse_saturday
05:23:51 <Patashu> was the earthquake metaphorical too?
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05:26:18 <Sgeo__> He may have used the term "Judgement Day", not "rapture"
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05:56:42 <CakeProphet> This means that $foo and @foo are two different variables. It also means that $foo[1] is a part of @foo, not a part of $foo. This may seem a bit weird, but that's okay, because it is weird
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06:05:49 <CakeProphet> it's the most fun I've had programming in a while.
06:08:44 <CakeProphet> Perl has a lot of interesting concepts. Like context, for example
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06:18:41 <fizzie> Use of Termnology for Memorable Paper Titles: A Case Study: "The Non-Bayesian Restless Multi-Armed Bandit: A Case of Near-logarithmic Regret"
06:18:42 <pikhq_> Perl has every concept.
06:19:57 <oerjan> logarithmic regret doesn't sound too bad
06:20:06 <oerjan> now if it were exponential...
06:20:14 <Patashu> title doesn't have enough references to movies
06:20:50 <Patashu> the Good, the Bad, and the Aversion to papers whos' titles fail to reference movies
06:23:28 <CakeProphet> http://search.cpan.org/~dconway/Contextual-Return-0.003001/lib/Contextual/Return.pm
06:23:38 <CakeProphet> oh god... and here I thought there was only list, scalar, and void context.
06:30:57 <olsner> hmm, I'm actually considering to temporarily set aside my hate for perl to play with that thing
06:33:41 <CakeProphet> olsner: I think you should only love Perl before you try to use that particular module.
06:34:31 <CakeProphet> Patashu: It allows you to control the behavior/return-value of a subroutine based on its calling context.
06:34:51 <Patashu> oh, as in...whether the result is going into a variable or not?
06:34:51 <CakeProphet> wantarray is a built-in that does something similar, but that module has a few more features for special contexts.
06:35:04 <Patashu> list is when it's being applied over a list?
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06:35:34 <olsner> CakeProphet: eek! I don't want to use the rest of perl, only the contextual returns
06:36:28 <oerjan> Patashu: For a Fistful of Papers
06:36:35 <CakeProphet> as is for(my_sub()) and grep !/\.\.?/, my_sub()
06:37:53 <CakeProphet> a lot of Perl built-ins and operators return different things in different contexts.
06:40:16 <CakeProphet> for example, m/regex/ returns true or false in scalar context if the regex matches a string, but in list context it returns a list of all the captured groups.
06:41:51 <pikhq> Oh, goody. Harold Camping was apparently off by 5 months.
06:42:18 <pikhq> The rapture will happen on 2011-10-21T18:00.
06:43:17 <pikhq> http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/radio-host-says-worlds-955120.html
06:43:28 <CakeProphet> for(`ls directory`) {my ($name, $extension) = m/(.*?)\.(.*?)/; ...}
06:43:59 <pikhq> Sorry, more crazy than just "he was off by 5 months".
06:44:20 <pikhq> Rather, the rapture wasn't *really* going to happen, but we have all been judged, and the world will end 2011-10-21T18:00.
06:47:27 <CakeProphet> Patashu: yes, Perl is interesting. I'd recommend giving it a look sometime.
06:49:32 <zzo38> Is contexts one of the reasons they invented Perl-golf?
06:52:34 <zzo38> Yes, that would also be one.
06:59:07 <zzo38> I do know AWK and what you described about m/regex/ seems similar to something in AWK as well. In AWK, something like /regex/ matches against $0 and is boolean, although some built-ins take regular expressions as arguments in which case it does that instead. You cannot make your own functions that take regular expressions as arguments, in AWK.
06:59:49 <CakeProphet> can you specify a non-default string to match?
07:00:16 <zzo38> Yes, using the ~ operator; it takes a regular expression as one of its arguments.
07:00:19 <CakeProphet> by default perl does m// on $_, but not if you use the =~ operator.
07:06:11 <CakeProphet> zzo38: so, if I know Perl, is there any reason I'd want to use awk instead?
07:08:44 <zzo38> CakeProphet: I don't know. Probably because awk is standard in UNIX and for the kind of things that awk is good for.
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07:09:37 <zzo38> I wonder if, the Deadfish challenge in anarchy golf, the shortest AWK submission is similar to the shortest Perl submission?
07:10:06 <CakeProphet> they're likely very similar since it's all string processing.
07:11:49 <zzo38> You try submitting a Perl code to that challenge (I would advise to always select "Open code statistics", although it is not required).
07:11:56 <zzo38> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Deadfish
07:12:35 <zzo38> (If you push "use form" then you can enter the code on the HTML form text area, otherwise you send a file with the correct extension)
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07:13:33 <CakeProphet> I saw def and I thought "Python..?" then I saw // and I thought "...Perl?"
07:14:29 <CakeProphet> speaking of which, now that I've got Perl down I should probably learn Ruby.
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07:15:58 <zzo38> But if you are interested, try submitting to the code golf challenge(s), using whichever programming language(s) you know.
07:16:47 <Patashu> I code golfed in java once
07:16:51 <zzo38> For that particular challenge, I am unbeat at AWK but my C codes are not quite short enough.
07:18:08 <zzo38> Patashu: They have Java, there, too.
07:21:06 <Sgeo__> xkcd-sucks is now deliberately trying to tick people off. Or, well, it's so obvious that they're joking that it won't tick people off. Maybe
07:22:25 <zzo38> Patashu: What are some of your opinions of making code-golf with Java?
07:23:13 <pikhq_> zzo38: If it comes short of 2 megs, it's successful. :P
07:24:18 <Patashu> My opinion on codegolfing in Java is: class A{static{try{for(int i=0,j,z=System.in.read()&7,k=z*6-2;i<k;i++){for(j=0;j<(j<k?3*Math.min(z+i,k*5/6f-i):0);)System.out.print(" \\__/ ".charAt(j++>3*Math.max(z-i-1,i-3*z)?(i*3+j)%6:5));System.out.println();}}catch(Exception e){}}}
07:24:35 <zzo38> Which is a code for what?
07:24:40 <Patashu> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?hexagon+2nd+fixed
07:25:07 <zzo38> Have you used any of the other programming languages available there? If so, which ones?
07:25:18 <CakeProphet> while(<>){s/i/$x++/e;$x-- if /s/&&$x!=0;s/s/$x**=2/e;s/o/print $x/e;last if /h/;$x=0 if $x==256}
07:25:47 <Patashu> Not yet, but I can tell you anyway that codegolfing in java is very cumbersome because it doesn't have any native language constructs for common idioms like other languages do
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07:26:35 <CakeProphet> zzo38: that's the shortest Perl gold I've got for deadfish
07:26:36 <Patashu> Doing something as simple as IO is a pain
07:26:54 <zzo38> CakeProphet: You can send to the form directly; all codes are revealed in 4 days
07:27:16 <CakeProphet> what were you saying about the open code statistics again?
07:27:26 <CakeProphet> also, I'm going to wait and see if I can find something to remove.
07:27:31 <zzo38> You should select it (make sure it is checkmark).
07:28:31 <zzo38> CakeProphet: Also, if you post, you can post another one later and if it has the same name it will override if shorter. If you do not want that, add something in parentheses after your name in case you want multiple submissions. Also, the server will test that it works automatically (if it doesn't, the error messages that it caused will be displayed)
07:30:02 <CakeProphet> I'm saving one character by using the s/i/$x++/e trick instead of using $x++ if /i/ :D
07:30:13 <CakeProphet> unless Perl lets you do something horrible like $x++if/i/
07:30:44 <Patashu> is that...are you embedding an increment in an s/old/new?
07:31:09 <Patashu> or does / mean something else
07:31:10 <zzo38> I think /e at the end makes it so that you can do that
07:31:30 <CakeProphet> the e option at the end allows you to use Perl code as the replacement string
07:31:38 <CakeProphet> it's evaluated and then the result is substituted
07:33:07 <CakeProphet> but I could find a good way to use it for $x-- so I just wrote it out as an if.
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07:36:16 <CakeProphet> while(<>){s/i/$x++/e;$x-- if /s/&&$x!=0;s/s/$x**=2/e;s/o/print $x/e;/h/&&last;$x*=$x==256}
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07:42:23 <CakeProphet> hmmm, the s///e doesn't seem to be working though
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07:49:34 <CakeProphet> alright this seems to work: while(<>){/i/&&$x++;/d/&&$x!=0&&$x--;/o/&&print$x;/s/&&($x**=2);/h/&&last;$x*=$x!=256}
07:53:47 <zzo38> The shortest is 50 bytes. The shortest AWK code is 39 bytes and is the one I wrote by myself.
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07:54:44 <zzo38> Also, I think it is allowed to place options on the shebang line, although unlike real Perl-golf, the "#!perl" is still counted.
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07:56:41 <CakeProphet> while(<>){/i/&&$x++;/d/&&$x!=0&&$x--;/o/&&print$x;$x**=2if/s/;/h/&&last;$x*=$x!=256}
07:57:51 <CakeProphet> hmmm... I'm not sure a shebang line could give me too many byte reductions.
07:59:04 <CakeProphet> would allow me to remove the while(<>){} compeltely. 1 byte lost.
07:59:48 <zzo38> Remember a line break is also required, and that if you use the form, it makes CRLF; you need to use a send file to make only LF.
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08:13:08 <CakeProphet> I don't know if I can go lower than 84 bytes on this one:
08:13:10 <CakeProphet> while(<>){/i/&&$x++;/d/&&$x!=0&&$x--;/o/&&print$x;$x**=2if/s/;/h/&&last;$x*=$x!=256}
08:13:41 <CakeProphet> replace the while loop with a #!perl -n line at the top
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08:25:22 <zzo38> Something I think missing from AWK is something like this: /^Say "(.*)"$/{print \1}
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08:34:41 <CakeProphet> actually outside of the regex itself you use $1 instead of \1
08:35:24 <zzo38> In AWK, $1 refers to the first field of the current record.
08:35:37 <zzo38> Not necessarily what is matched by () in regular expressions.
08:35:58 <zzo38> Which is why I suggest \ instead of $ for this case
08:37:25 <CakeProphet> I thought I did rather poorly since my initial estimate was 84, but I had to make some changes to account for output formatting
08:38:39 <CakeProphet> $x=0;while(<>){/i/&&$x++;/d/&&$x!=0&&$x--;/o/&&print"$x\n";$x**=2if/s/;/h/&&last;$x*=$x!=256}
08:39:42 <Patashu> it looks like it's pointing to the first o
08:40:39 <CakeProphet> so either there's a) no one using Perl in this contest b) no expert Perl golfers in this contest c) I am an expert Perl golfer.
08:40:52 <Patashu> you mean on golf.shinh.org ?
08:41:01 <Patashu> that place should be packed with ridiculous golfers
08:41:13 <Patashu> oh, it's one of the problems that only just got added
08:41:16 <Patashu> maybe they haven't seen it yet
08:42:31 <Patashu> keep in mind that it only needs to support the cases that it tests for
08:42:57 <zzo38> CakeProphet: Yes you can, there is EOF at the end.
08:43:18 <Patashu> if sample input i becomes sample output i for i = 1, 2, 3 golf.shinh.org won't care if it implements deadfish or not
08:43:29 <Patashu> for instance, my solution to hexagons only works for odd values
08:43:33 <Patashu> because it only tests odd values
08:43:38 <Patashu> that allowed me to shave off a lot of bytes
08:44:19 <CakeProphet> ...won't they like, look for cheating though?
08:44:31 <Patashu> It's anarchic golf, after all ;)
08:44:38 <Patashu> Btw, you said you had 94 bytes?
08:44:43 <zzo38> CakeProphet: No, although if you want, you can make multiple submissions you can put stuff after your name such as (cheat) for cheating entries and so on
08:44:55 <Patashu> According to the page the shortest perl solution is 50 bytes and the shortest awk solution is 39 bytes
08:44:57 <Patashu> so it can be done very short
08:45:11 <CakeProphet> oh really? why does it say "and it's a new record!"?
08:45:14 <Patashu> 39 bytes in GoldScript and xgawk too, how about that
08:45:17 <Patashu> Because it's a new record for -you-
08:45:22 <Patashu> It's just to keep track of your improvements
08:45:29 <Patashu> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Deadfish
08:45:32 <Patashu> Scroll down to language ranking
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08:47:52 <Patashu> Think of things like: the bitwise relationship between the values you read
08:48:03 <zzo38> I would consider it not cheating if you check for EOF instead of the "h" to halt, but it is cheating if other valid inputs fail to work. I suggest submitting cheating entries anyways but adding (cheat) after your name.
08:48:18 <zzo38> Patashu: I used that in the C code.
08:48:26 <Patashu> For instance, I saw a codegolfed brainfuck interpreter. It takes the modulo 2 of the input, because + and - are adjacent in the code and have opposite effects
08:48:34 <Patashu> If i and o have a similar relationship...
08:49:41 <Patashu> I thought (cheat) was only used for insane exploits?
08:50:49 <Patashu> for instance, http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Quine/eban%28cheat%29_1182659566&rb
08:51:09 <zzo38> Patashu: Well, I guess different people have different opinion what to use it for; I suggest using (cheat) if other valid inputs fail to produce valid outputs.
08:51:21 <zzo38> Or else, use (embed) or (specific) in that case.
08:51:45 <zzo38> In the case of the quine, reading your own file is considered cheating, too, of course.
08:51:52 <Patashu> embed is where the output is contained within the code
08:52:01 <Patashu> I'm not aware of a tag for only solving the specific sample inputs, because it's the expected way
08:52:16 <CakeProphet> haha, erlang is the worst. If I knew Erlang I would try to beat the record on that one
08:52:32 <zzo38> If you do not want a tag for only solving the specific sample inputs, then you could instead use (genuine) to say it works on all valid inputs.
08:52:52 <Patashu> I think I'll use it if I pick up code golfing again
08:54:01 <zzo38> For the reason of these kind of tags used in different ways (as well as just to make sure of things), I dislike endless problems.
08:54:26 <CakeProphet> zzo38: we should write something better than golfscript for golfing. with more operators.
08:54:40 <Patashu> better than golfscript? it's called flogscript
08:54:48 <zzo38> CakeProphet: I have had some idea for some binary file code golf
08:55:00 <zzo38> Patashu: Better in some cases, worse in others, equally good in others.
08:55:09 <Patashu> reverse base 64 golfscript and call it a new language?
08:55:30 <zzo38> Patashu: I don't mean quite like that.
08:57:16 <CakeProphet> well, if you actually shrunk the number of operators you could fit two on a byte and then have an operator for each hex digit
08:58:24 <zzo38> In fact, sometimes vi or z80 is the shortest solution, shorter than the GolfScript and FlogScript codes.
09:00:01 <zzo38> For the printer oriented banner problem, my vi solution is shortest of all of them.
09:00:59 <zzo38> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?PrinterOriented+Banner Note that "exec is denied" does not affect shell scripts, and only partially affects vi.
09:01:52 <Patashu> all the short versions are people managing to call it anyway?
09:04:23 <zzo38> Patashu: Yes, although there is one difficulty being that it is not in PATH, even though the program is installed. And the C code does read the banner program without executing it. The other difficulty is that spaces are added to the end of the line and the problem requires it without the trailing spaces.
09:04:40 <zzo38> Both are not too difficult to correct.
09:05:00 <CakeProphet> ha, changing my while to a for shaved 2 bytes. :D
09:06:46 <CakeProphet> so I wonder what kind of system they're running on that website.
09:07:19 <CakeProphet> essentially, I'm wondering if I could use system commands in Perl on the server. I doubt it.
09:08:02 <zzo38> CakeProphet: Depends.
09:08:17 <Patashu> the golf.shinh exploits are the best
09:08:18 <Patashu> There were two directories where we can write permanent files and one of this was used in http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?27c3_Generate+C . I've already fixed the permission of this directory and removed the entries. Thanks 27c3 guys for finding this issue!
09:08:23 <Phantom_Hoover> I can't buy high-temperature superconductors over the internet?
09:08:27 <Patashu> there was some system V exploit someone made to communicate between programs that was fixed ages ago
09:09:12 <Patashu> http://github.com/shinh/ags apparently this is what it runs
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09:16:03 <Patashu> I love this: Tim LaHaye, co-author of the best-selling "Left Behind" novels about the end times, recently called Camping's prediction "not only bizarre but 100 percent wrong!" He cited the Bible verse Matthew 24:36, "but about that day or hour no one knows" except God.
09:16:07 <Patashu> even the left behind writers know better
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09:21:44 <Patashu> know better than to set a date
09:22:58 <zzo38> The "Count asterisks" problem, I invented it and designed it with a cheat. I don't know who can notice right away the cheat and who doesn't.
09:23:14 <Phantom_Hoover> So basically God isn't even going to organise his armies ahead of time for the apocalypse?
09:23:14 <Phantom_Hoover> The angels will just be sitting around and one day suddenly there'll be all these Christians everywhere?
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09:23:41 <Patashu> I'm pretty sure he has a contingent set aside for permanent end of the world readiness
09:23:45 <Patashu> like how the army has swat teams
09:25:33 <zzo38> Patashu: I also agree that the left behind writers did know better than to set a date. One thing it can be determined by the logic, the other is that it even says so in the Bible itself!
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09:26:32 <Patashu> Besides, how come people never set an end times prediction more than a lifetime away?
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09:26:42 <Patashu> If the bible self-evidently set it, then surely it would have been in the far future at some point
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09:35:48 <Patashu> https://github.com/shinh/ags/blob/master/be/modules/sandbox.c this looks complicated as
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12:12:38 <cheater__> i've come up with a linux kernel quine
12:16:04 <cheater__> well i guess it's actually a GNU kernel quine
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12:51:56 <cheater__> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/GNU_Operating_System
12:56:40 <ais523> we really need some place to file "esoteric applications of typically non-esoteric languages" on the wiki
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12:59:19 <cheater__> ais523: but that's an esolang. no one programs for the kernel shebang interpreter.
12:59:54 <ais523> that isn't programming for the shebang interpreter, though
13:00:14 <ais523> with a shebang so that it will be invoked under awk
13:00:20 <ais523> you might as well just do #!/usr/bin/cat
13:03:10 <ais523> what I'm saying is, you're invoking external programs there
13:03:35 <ais523> it's like writing "system '/usr/bin/ruby'" and using it as a proof that Perl is Turing-complete
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13:04:45 <ais523> also, it does contain commands to read the source file! #! provides the source file as an argument to something, and /usr/bin/awk interprets its argument as a file to read
13:08:44 <Vorpal> <ais523> that isn't programming for the shebang interpreter, though <-- hm would that be possible though
13:08:58 <ais523> I don't think it's intelligent enough
13:09:08 <ais523> hmm, if you do #!/tmp/a and save it as /tmp/a
13:09:11 <ais523> then chmod it executable
13:09:15 <ais523> do you get an infinite loop?
13:09:49 <ais523> all that happened was that it went back to command prompt immediately
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13:10:21 <Vorpal> ais523, I doubt strace will help, it will likely never leave the kernel
13:10:45 <Vorpal> ais523, can the #! interpreter even recurse at all?
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13:10:57 <ais523> ah, that's an interesting point
13:11:11 <ais523> I assumed it would drop to userspace at some point, but semantically, that's a kernelspace infinite loop
13:11:26 <ais523> (of course, if it were actually /interpreted/ as one it'd be a trivial DoS vulnerability
13:11:32 <Vorpal> ais523, I mean, what happens if you do /tmp/b containing #!/bin/bash\nbash "$@" and then put /tmp/b as an interpreter for another program
13:14:01 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> ais523, I mean, what happens if you do /tmp/b containing #!/bin/bash\nbash "$@" and then put /tmp/b as an interpreter for another program <-- seems it works
13:14:11 <ais523> Vorpal: as in, you get an infinite loop?
13:14:14 <ais523> or do you get a forkbomb?
13:14:24 <Vorpal> ais523, as in in my test it prints foo
13:14:34 <Vorpal> ais523, I just did finite recursion
13:14:59 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway, infinite recursion between two different interpreters might work. Probably not
13:15:14 <Vorpal> ais523, also I assume there is a finite length for such chains of interpreting
13:15:31 <ais523> Vorpal: that isn't an infinite chain, though, it's only two tiers
13:15:32 <cheater__> ais523: it's programming for the shebang interpreter.
13:15:41 <ais523> as it goes into userspace after loading bash
13:15:43 <cheater__> ais523: refresh the page, i have made a simpler quine.
13:15:45 <ais523> cheater__: no, it isn't
13:15:48 <Vorpal> ais523, so we know it allows at least two tires
13:15:48 <ais523> it's programming for awk
13:16:01 <ais523> your page would be vaguely interesting if it was even remotely factually correct
13:16:52 <ais523> cheater__: s/made a simpler quine/copied the quine I gave in the channel/?
13:16:57 <ais523> and all cat programs are quines
13:17:29 <cheater__> also, your line was wrong, because cat isn't in /usr/bin on many systems
13:17:43 <cheater__> in fact i don't know a system where it's in /usr/bin but i hadn't searched.
13:17:46 <ais523> even so, though, it has basically nothing to do with the shebang interpreter
13:18:07 <ais523> I keep getting directories for executables wrong because I'm used to DJGPP
13:18:20 <cheater__> the shebang interpreter is what passes the file name of the script being executed
13:18:21 <ais523> because it's not the shebang interp that's doing the printing, but an external progam
13:18:35 <cheater__> yes, that's why it's a quine for the GNU OS
13:18:40 <cheater__> not for the GNU shebang interpreter
13:19:16 <Patashu> quines are trivial with file IO though
13:21:48 * Vorpal ponders the possibilities of a /bin/cd instead of having it as a builtin in the shell
13:21:59 <Vorpal> I can see how it could be done, but it would be utterly messy
13:22:14 <Vorpal> for a start it would involve ptrace()
13:22:32 <cheater__> ais523: you cannot have infinite recursion in the shebang interpreter because the interpreter itself cannot be a script (in most versions of the interpreter).
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13:23:30 <Vorpal> I'd like to code an OS, but most of the time would be spent during boring stuff rather than the few interesting things
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13:24:32 <Vorpal> there are some things I think could be done better than *nix, and I have some ideas. But yeah, I'm not very interested in spending hours coding drivers and so on. Nor is most of memory management very interesting
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13:24:41 <cheater__> ais523: i have really not read your /usr/bin/cat though, came up with it myself :p
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13:25:04 <Vorpal> I wonder if building an OS in an HLL on top of a good microkernel would work
13:25:31 <Vorpal> (speaking of which, what good microkernels are there?)
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13:27:15 <Patashu> -only- hours? very fast coder
13:28:38 <Vorpal> Patashu, well I didn't say how many. Probably hundreds of them :P
13:28:59 <Patashu> I wouldn't know the first thing about coding a driver
13:29:50 <cheater__> it's simple, basically you're writing to special addresses to memory, oh and you sometimes need to do realtime and make sure you don't block stuff.
13:30:15 <Vorpal> only for memory mapped IO registers obviously
13:30:28 <Vorpal> x86 uses a separate bus for IO ports iirc
13:30:40 <Vorpal> not sure if that is still used on modern systems though
13:32:44 <Phantom_Hoover> I really, *really* hope DMM recently got a child and hasn't told us and this is actually him picking a name.
13:33:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, is "Zelda" actually an old name? Not something simply made up by Nintendo?
13:33:54 <Vorpal> Zelda is a nickname for the feminine name Griselda which means "dark battle".[citation needed]" huh
13:36:08 <Phantom_Hoover> The games are named ultimately after F. Scott Fitzgerald's wife.
13:43:46 <cheater__> Zelda Sayre Fitzgerald (July 24, 1900 – March 10, 1948), born Zelda Sayre ("Sayre" is pronounced to rhyme with "fair") in Montgomery, Alabama, was an American novelist and the wife of writer F. Scott Fitzgerald.
13:44:01 <cheater__> Zelda's glamorous image also inspired the name of video game creator Shigeru Miyamoto's character Princess Zelda in his The Legend of Zelda video game series. Miyamoto explained, "Zelda was the name of the wife of the famous novelist F. Scott Fitzgerald. She was a famous and beautiful woman from all accounts, and I liked the sound of her name. So I took the liberty of using her name for the very first Zelda title."[85]
13:44:25 <cheater__> citing this: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/feature/-/117177/
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14:20:44 <cheater__> there's a very similar idiom in polish.
14:21:00 <cheater__> it is "what does the gingerbread cake have to do with the windmill"
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15:10:13 <lambdabot> is it hard to set up n ready my pc for programming?
15:10:17 <lambdabot> I personally emailed paul graham the lisp guy today after reading about python in E raymonds essay he metions ruby n python is u cant use lisp
15:10:39 <lambdabot> Im really only a bash person and even then Im tin
15:10:52 <lambdabot> how does haskell compare to say java?
15:10:55 <lambdabot> so this java guy I know says that java is the best when things get really complex and u need your apps do do real work
15:11:02 <lambdabot> cant u just have data in arrays and do operations using you prog lang?
15:11:06 <lambdabot> is haskell doomed to be a mysql driver?
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15:37:51 <Vorpal> interesting. It seems that I need to hit auto adjust on the monitor when the temperature of the GPU changes significantly (such as when playing a 3D game for a while, or a while after stopping playing one)
15:38:02 <Vorpal> that is some shoddy intel graphics
15:39:09 <ais523> it's pretty hard to temperature-compensate circuits
15:39:24 <ais523> often you have to use two entirely different circuits with opposite temperature responses, and arrange them to cancel each other out somehow
15:39:29 <ais523> and that's relatively expensive to do
15:39:41 <ais523> if you can just autoadjust the monitor instead, why not do it that way?
15:41:23 <Vorpal> <ais523> if you can just autoadjust the monitor instead, why not do it that way? <-- it is annoying to have to do that every minute or so when the chip is warming up or cooling down
15:42:43 <Vorpal> ais523, especially since the monitor seems to need an image with lots of sharp lines in it to autoadjust. Meaning the typical 3D game is not well suited. Something like text works well however.
15:43:29 <Vorpal> I seem to remember my old syncmaster came with a windows program to display some sort of auto-adjust pattern on the screen with a checkerboard pattern with a white frame in the outermost pixel
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15:44:58 <Vorpal> anyway, we need one standard for digital monitor attachment. I could do digital for this monitor except I have no DP-to-DVI converter
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16:37:44 <Phantom_Hoover> "In computer science higher-order functions consists of two things: closures and currying."
16:38:30 <Phantom_Hoover> I am clearly going to have to find this man and hit him until he stops being wrong.
16:39:37 <Lymia> Arn't higher order functions functions that take or return functions?
16:41:04 <Phantom_Hoover> By his definition Python does not have higher-order functions.
16:41:31 <Phantom_Hoover> By his definition Lazy K doesn't have higher-order functions, come to think of it.
16:43:44 <Lymia> http://groovy.dzone.com/news/higher-order-functions-groovy-
16:44:43 <Lymia> Phantom_Hoover, ask him what "map(func,iter)" is if that's the definition of higher-order functions.
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16:45:14 <Lymia> Then ask him how the hell you can have functional programming without higher-order functions, when using the correct definition.
16:45:34 <Lymia> (Even C supports functions that take functions as parameters, right?)
16:45:51 <Lymia> Phantom_Hoover, Link him to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher-order_function
16:46:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Which is why defining functional languages as those with higher-order functions is stupid.
16:47:07 <ais523> my working definition is that functional languages are those where reassignable variables are nonidiomatic (and might not even exist)
16:47:33 <Lymia> I'd define it as where programming in such a style is possible.
16:47:48 <ais523> higher-order functions help too, but I'm not sure they're actually required for a lang to be functional
16:47:51 <Lymia> (And not a giant pain in the ass)
16:48:10 <Lymia> You could program functionally in Python, couldn't you?
16:48:59 <ais523> I wouldn't call Python a functional programming language, although I would call it one in which functional programming was entirely possible
16:50:26 <Lymia> What about, say, Scala.
16:50:42 <ais523> I don't actually know Scala
16:50:52 <Lymia> It's var/val distinction makes it more likely to be functional by your definition, no?
16:51:12 <Lymia> Also, isn't such a definition more reliant on the community than the language unless no mutable state exists?
16:51:33 <ais523> Lymia: potentially it is
16:52:18 <Lymia> If you gave a Haskell programmer Python, I doubt you'd see much mutable state.
16:52:38 <Lymia> (If you gave them Java, they'd kick you in the shin)
16:52:55 <pikhq> If you gave them C++, you might not see much runtime behavior.
16:55:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, output doesn't actually break referential transparency.
16:56:27 <pikhq> No, but your compiler might do surprising things unless it acts like it does.
16:57:41 <Lymia> If you gave them C++, they'd still kick you in the shin.
16:57:51 <Lymia> That's still runtime behavior, but not from the computer.
16:59:57 <pikhq> Lymia: I was saying they'd do most of their programming in templates. Which is *just* this side of tolerable if you write a preprocessor for the purpose.
17:01:15 <Lymia> I guess you could replicate functional programming in any OO language reasonably well if you have inner classes.
17:01:28 <Lymia> What happens if you give a Haskell programmer basic?
17:01:30 <pikhq> It's nothing more than a compile-time static functional programming language with pattern matching.
17:01:49 <pikhq> You'd have a Basic backend for GHC in a month.
17:02:16 <Lymia> Compiling Haskell to Basic?
17:03:28 <pikhq> Either that, or they'd peek and poke their way to a better language in a few minutes. Say, an assembler.
17:04:14 <Lymia> What would happen if you went to a Java shop, and lugged in scala-library.jar and scala-compiler.jar
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17:07:11 <pikhq> They'd probably be surprised at how little bloat your code has.
17:21:38 <cheater__> wow, nice! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2mCDkqXki0&feature=related
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17:54:45 <Vorpal> <ais523> my working definition is that functional languages are those where reassignable variables are nonidiomatic (and might not even exist) <-- what about closures?
17:55:03 <ais523> those are less important too, although very useful
17:56:05 <Vorpal> ais523, hm does bash have higher order functions? Arguably you could do it by eval
17:56:17 <Vorpal> or even without it sometimes
17:56:34 <ais523> Vorpal: I don't know, I'm not a bash expert
17:56:43 <ais523> anything with eval, you can normally simulate higher order functions in, though
17:56:44 <Vorpal> foo { $1 whatever; } bar { something; } foo bar
17:56:50 <ais523> unless it's sufficiently eso that you can't do anything vaguely like that
17:57:15 <Vorpal> ais523, I mean it is easy to do function pointers in bash
17:57:42 <Vorpal> so you can reach the level that C has easily.
17:57:49 <Vorpal> even without resorting to eval
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18:22:07 <elliott_> [[GNU Operating System]] is even more off-topic than [[PHP]] was and needs deleting
18:23:17 <ais523> I don't think that sort of thing is inherently offtopic, it's just that nobody's written one that's at all interesting yet
18:23:48 <elliott_> well, it's not esoteric, it's not a language,
18:24:00 <elliott_> and its interest to esoteric programmers is only in that... you can run esointerpreters on it?
18:24:10 <elliott_> 04:54:58: <Sgeo__> Just took 300mg melatonin
18:24:53 <ais523> elliott_: I mean, things like Perl without letters or numbers probably qualify as esolangs
18:25:23 <elliott_> ais523: well, the shell /is/ a programming language, by design
18:25:34 <elliott_> but note that this is not the same thing as Unix, or GNU, at all
18:25:37 <elliott_> it's just one possible interface
18:25:47 <elliott_> the fact that you can do quines, or recursion, or anything, with it, is irrelevant
18:25:53 <ais523> elliott_: cheater897 wasn't claiming that the shell was an esolang, but that the "shebang interpreter" was, whatever that means
18:26:01 <elliott_> because it's a language by design, and not really an esoteric one
18:26:05 <elliott_> ais523: that makes no sense at all
18:26:07 <ais523> and really, it isn't, it's the executables that it runs that are... non-eso langauges
18:26:09 <elliott_> echo '#!/usr/bin/awk {print $0}' > quine; chmod oau+x quine
18:26:22 <ais523> elliott_: I was wondering about that, but didn't know enough awk to tell
18:26:40 <elliott_> that's not a quine... that's cat
18:26:44 <ais523> elliott_: it has to be cat
18:26:46 <elliott_> ais523: actually, the lack of a newline is after awk
18:26:52 <elliott_> it's a bug in the "shebang interpreter" code ;-)
18:26:58 <ais523> if you do #!/usr/bin/cat
18:27:05 <elliott_> anyway, the fixed quine is an actual quine, but a cheat one, so it doesn't count at all
18:27:06 <ais523> then that's a quine by itself, on DJGPP
18:27:18 <elliott_> additionally the recursion example is broken
18:27:19 <ais523> elliott_: on UNIX, cat is apparently typically not in /usr/bin
18:27:25 <elliott_> because you can't use shebangs in a shebanged executable
18:27:28 <ais523> elliott_: anyway I already deleted the page
18:27:49 <elliott_> yeah ok even for an off-topic page, it's literally the most error-ridden unfunny piece of crap i've ever read :P
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18:39:19 <pikhq> "PS. The voices in my head also tell me that the numbers are getting too big. I may just call the thing 2.8.0." — Linus
18:39:42 <pikhq> The last release would have actually been a good time for it.
18:39:50 <pikhq> Complete removal of the BKL and all.
18:44:53 <elliott_> I kind of feel like the "2." part will disappear sometime soon.
18:45:03 <pikhq> An alternate proposal is to go to 3.0.
18:45:15 <elliott_> pikhq: And then, hopefully, increment the major version more often...
18:45:24 <elliott_> I mean, compare 2.0 to whatever long string the latest release is.
18:45:29 <pikhq> (by "alternate proposal" I mean "alternate proposal that Linus is actually considering")
18:45:30 <elliott_> Tell me that isn't a major-version-worthy difference.
18:45:32 <elliott_> Even going a year or two back.
18:45:55 <pikhq> elliott_: Dear me, there's been quite a few major version-worthy changes in there.
18:46:36 <pikhq> Heck, even a few in 2.6.
18:47:06 <pikhq> Tickless kernel and removing the BKL are two such changes.
18:47:07 <elliott_> Didn't 2.6 come out like half a decade ago?
18:47:45 <pikhq> 2.6 came out 7 years ago.
18:48:38 <olsner> I thought going to 2.8 implied branching off a 2.7 first, and since there's been no branching there'll be no 2.8
18:49:23 <elliott_> olsner: it's Linus, he can do what the fuck he wants :)
18:49:23 <pikhq> olsner: The odd-number development thing is just straight-up outmoded, but there's still a bit of a desire for even number branches.
18:49:59 <pikhq> BitKeeper and git kinda killed the need for development version numbers.
18:50:50 <elliott_> man, how long did Linux use bitkeeper for anyway?
18:51:21 <elliott_> I bet before it did version control haters had an easier time -- "Damn man, use a VCS." "Linus doesn't." "Um, er, that is to say, erm,"
18:51:33 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Complete removal of the BKL and all. <-- BKL?
18:51:41 <pikhq> Vorpal: Big Kernel Lock.
18:52:25 <pikhq> Probably the single biggest architectural change Linux has had.
18:52:42 <olsner> I think they should switch from 2.6.x.y to 3.1.1 and just let the last two numbers keep increasing forever...
18:52:49 <olsner> well, until some magical time they realize it's sufficiently different from 3.1.1 to call it 4.1.1
18:53:04 <Vorpal> olsner, why not 3.0.0 first?
18:53:40 <Vorpal> pikhq, anyway most stuff in the kernel hadn't beel using the BKL for years iirc
18:53:40 <elliott_> I think major version numbers are irrelevant for any project that releases sufficiently often.
18:53:50 <elliott_> People have already realised that Chrome's major version number increments every few weeks.
18:54:00 <Vorpal> so really it was just the last remains being cleaned up
18:54:19 <pikhq> Vorpal: The removal of the BKL happened in the 2.6 tree. Entirely.
18:54:20 <Vorpal> elliott_, doesn't chrome use a rather longwinded version number
18:54:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm yes but the 2.6 tree has been going for years
18:54:30 <pikhq> Vorpal: It was a fairly long, drawn-out process.
18:54:41 <olsner> Vorpal: maybe using .1.1 would signify that it's not really the first major release (with the instability that usually implies), but already moved on to the first usable patch version
18:54:50 <elliott_> Vorpal: yes; I'm on 11.0.696.68
18:54:53 <Vorpal> pikhq, anyway didn't some parts in 2.4 not take the BKL as soon as entering the kernel even?
18:54:55 <Lymia> Can't we just abandon versions, and use a release number, along with a git commit id?
18:55:03 <olsner> but really it was just random, I temporarily forgot where the numbers start
18:55:06 <elliott_> Vorpal: and it hit eleven on...
18:55:18 <elliott_> and twelve is already in the dev channel IIRC
18:55:28 <elliott_> it'll probably be in the stable channel in a matter of weeks :P
18:55:33 <pikhq> Vorpal: Well, yes, but that wasn't due to a plan to remove the BKL.
18:55:39 <Vorpal> elliott_, that one is worse the old df version numbers iirc
18:55:50 <elliott_> Vorpal: I think the last two probably are a revision identifier of some kind
18:55:55 <olsner> chrome moved past opera in version numbers in about a tenth of the time opera has existed
18:56:04 <elliott_> Vorpal: Chrome on Windows and Mac updates completely silently, after all
18:56:08 <elliott_> (on Linux it's an apt repository)
18:56:13 <elliott_> (probably something for yum too)
18:56:20 <pikhq> Vorpal: I don't think you realise just *how* tied in the BKL was when they started this.
18:56:33 <Vorpal> elliott_, it is a bit scary that it updates silently. Is there an option to at least notify you of it?
18:56:45 <Vorpal> pikhq, probably you are right
18:56:50 <olsner> Vorpal: you're not supposed to care. really.
18:57:01 <pikhq> Even *open* took the BKL.
18:57:01 <elliott_> Vorpal: I'm not sure. It does yell at you to restart if it's gone too long without being quit or crashing (it actually includes "or crashing" in the message, at least as of last year :-D).
18:57:03 <Vorpal> olsner, I wouldn't trust google :P
18:57:30 <Vorpal> pikhq, but not whatever system call is used for getpid() I bet
18:57:32 <elliott_> Vorpal: I'm not totally "comfortable" with it as far as the potential for abuse goes if it got popular, but I really can't bring myself to care when it's Google.
18:57:41 <elliott_> Vorpal: It's hardly any more secure than apt.
18:57:45 <elliott_> Do you check every update that comes in?
18:58:07 <olsner> with the process-per-tab thingy in chrome, they should be able to partially upgrade the browser as you go along, upgrading tabs silently when you press reload :)
18:58:13 <Vorpal> elliott_, nope, but I have a nagging feeling that I should
18:58:22 <Vorpal> elliott_, and then I realise I wouldn't have time
18:58:33 <elliott_> Vorpal: Even if you did, you can't read binary patches.
18:58:39 <elliott_> You would have to compile every update from source yourself.
18:58:48 <elliott_> And if you think you can detect exploits in source code -- see Underhanded C contest.
18:58:59 <Vorpal> elliott_, I'm quite aware of that.
18:59:01 <elliott_> The only possible solution is a smart environment (capability security, etc.).
18:59:07 <ais523> elliott_: most of those exploits aren't all that hard to find, though
18:59:11 <elliott_> So while we're on our current systems... Chrome doesn't really bother me.
18:59:18 <Vorpal> elliott_, then you have to trust that environment. What about upgrades to it?
18:59:26 <pikhq> elliott_: Chrome is probably better on that count than most programs, really.
18:59:28 <elliott_> Vorpal: you always have to trust someone.
18:59:36 <pikhq> (in that it at least has a sane security *model*)
18:59:38 <elliott_> If you don't trust any part of your computer, there is exactly one solution: don't tell it anything.
19:00:08 <elliott_> Don't plug in a webcam. Never type anything you don't want the world to know. Blah blah blah. Basically if you don't trust anything you can't use a computer for anything.
19:00:09 <pikhq> (of course, if Google wants to rape that, then it's pretty well raped next update)
19:00:11 <Vorpal> elliott_, well I can probably trust something I build myself out of TTL logic :P
19:00:30 <elliott_> Vorpal: That's trusting yourself.
19:00:33 <pikhq> Vorpal: And write *all* the software yourself?
19:00:46 <elliott_> And if you trust yourself not to make mistakes... congratulations! You're an idiot!
19:00:46 <Vorpal> <elliott_> Don't plug in a webcam. Never type anything you don't want the world to know. Blah blah blah. Basically if you don't trust anything you can't use a computer for anything. <-- 1) I don't even have a webcam 2) no comments ;)
19:01:06 <elliott_> Vorpal: that includes your email password.
19:01:13 <Vorpal> elliott_, yes indeed, what about formal verification
19:01:20 <elliott_> In fact, an email account is out of the question if you don't trust anybody.
19:01:20 <pikhq> If you rely on an external compiler, you get Trusting Trust. If you rely on an external anything *else*, you rely on the source code not being underhanded or poorly written.
19:01:27 <elliott_> Vorpal: Coq could have a deliberate exploit.
19:01:34 <pikhq> And if you rely on yourself, you rely on your own perfection.
19:01:37 <Vorpal> elliott_, well you have to consider what damage could be done if whoever you trusted was not trustable
19:01:37 <pikhq> Such hubris, that.
19:01:43 <elliott_> Of course trusting that the authors of Coq is not exactly a hard thing to demand, but it's still trust.
19:01:53 <elliott_> And in this hypothetical we're trusting nothing.
19:01:55 <ais523> pikhq: if you rely on multiple external compilers, from different vendors
19:02:00 <ais523> you can use them to compile each other from source
19:02:09 <elliott_> Not trusting anyone is definitely a mental illness.
19:02:12 <Vorpal> elliott_, indeed, trust is like mathematics. You need to take something for given to do anything useful.
19:02:16 <ais523> which gets rid of all trusting-trust situations that don't involve a huge conspiracy
19:02:18 <elliott_> It also completely precludes society entirely.
19:02:27 <elliott_> Vorpal: you have to trust an awful lot.
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19:02:51 <elliott_> (http://www.dwheeler.com/trusting-trust/)
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19:03:00 <pikhq_> ais523: But they could very well be working in a conspiracy.
19:03:08 <ais523> elliott_: is that a different trusting-trust article from the famous one?
19:03:09 <elliott_> If anyone actually stopped using computers after reading the Trusting Trust paper then ...
19:03:14 <elliott_> I don't even know, they're alien as far as I'm concerned.
19:03:28 <elliott_> ais523: trusting that there's no gigantic conspiracy is trust
19:03:34 <elliott_> and plenty of people don't do it
19:03:46 <elliott_> (they've all made major failures of reasoning, but so does anyone who doesn't trust anything)
19:03:52 <ais523> in my case, there are things I trust and things I don't
19:04:04 <elliott_> David A. Wheeler’s Page on Fully Countering Trusting Trust through Diverse Double-Compiling (DDC) - Countering Trojan Horse attacks on Compilers
19:04:09 <ais523> and lack of a massive conspiracy is more trustworthy than lack of a small conspiracy, for instance
19:04:12 <elliott_> http://www.dwheeler.com/trusting-trust/dissertation/wheeler-trusting-trust-ddc.pdf
19:04:48 <ais523> hmm, you can get a PhD out of that defence? I thought it was obvious
19:05:06 <elliott_> ais523: It's not as simple as what you said
19:05:14 <pikhq_> Essentially, at a certain point you have to take the trustworthiness of *something* for granted, or give up on everything more advanced than a big stick and your own arm.
19:05:17 <elliott_> which is why I linked to it, so you could read the summary
19:05:32 <elliott_> I appear to have momentarily deluded myself into thinking you might actually click a link
19:06:10 <elliott_> I suppose I could always Ctrl+A, Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V the page, but you seem to prefer I reword things in my own awkward words for some reason
19:06:22 <Vorpal> pikhq_, but how can you trust the stick to be a stick?
19:06:56 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Oh, fuck, solipsism.
19:07:14 <pikhq_> Very well then. You can trust nothing but the existence of your own mind.
19:07:16 <Vorpal> pikhq_, are you sure your mind exists then?
19:07:27 <Vorpal> how can you be so sure it isn't just an illusion
19:07:49 <elliott_> Vorpal: the answer to that is obvious.
19:07:59 <Vorpal> pikhq_, do you actually think, or do you just feel like you do.
19:08:02 <elliott_> Vorpal: the answer to that is obvious.
19:08:21 <pikhq_> Vorpal: If you are capable of asking that question, you are clearly thinking.
19:08:24 <Vorpal> elliott_, shut up, I'm being factitious here. :P
19:08:31 <elliott_> Vorpal: yes but it's just stupid.
19:08:31 <pikhq_> Ergo, your mind must exist in some fashion.
19:08:42 <pikhq_> What that fashion *is* is, of course, debatable.
19:09:13 <elliott_> suddenly this conversion is kind of stupid
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19:26:59 <ais523> hmm, TIL that tcc was originally the C compiler submitted as an IOCCC entry
19:27:09 <ais523> I was aware of both of them, but wasn't aware that they were the same codebase
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19:43:48 <Sgeo__> Is a MSPA flash coming?
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19:44:43 <elliott_> AH is having computer problems
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19:47:44 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: TCC: Tiny C Compiler.
19:47:50 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: By Fabrice Bellard.
19:48:31 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: I told you to read the Twitter so read the damn Twitter
19:48:40 <elliott_> buying a new one wont fix it this time, its software probs.
19:48:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes but I don't actually understand what the hell that means.
19:50:03 <elliott_> which is logical, since software licensing is incredibly painful and copying large work-in-progress files would take ages
19:50:07 <elliott_> "Actually, I want to implement a NF interpreter sometime. This will include "networking" and implicit "IPC" (IPC in the sense of a localhost-localhost communication). Please, read my article again. There I have written that the SETUP of the connection has to be established by client and server which is running NF. Actually, I do know what these words mean, as I studied network technique 1 year in the University of Applied Sciences in Mannheim as part of
19:50:07 <elliott_> my Bachelor study of computer sciences. I do know how to use pipes, IPCs, shared memory, traps, rendevouz, mutexes and deadlock-free communications."
19:50:10 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: DON'T MESS WITH THIS GUY
19:50:15 <elliott_> HE STUDIED NETWORK TECHNIQUES FOR A YEAR
19:50:20 <elliott_> AT THE UNIVERSITY OF APPLIED SCIENCES IN MANNHEIM
19:50:26 <elliott_> AS PART OF A BACHELOR STUDY OF COMPUTER SCIENCES
19:50:33 <elliott_> He will RUIN you with his knowledge.
19:53:55 <elliott_> an utterly uninteresting, incredibly underspecified BF derivative whose creator is arguing its merits with PH on the wiki right now hilariously badly
19:54:00 <Phantom_Hoover> It's the one which has a single static 2-way pipe between processes which he calls networking.
19:54:03 <elliott_> "I have a Bachelor's degree in CS, your argument is invalid"
19:54:09 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: well it is networking, with a single socket
19:54:16 <elliott_> he seems to be saying that interpreters have you set up the socket beforehand
19:54:42 <Vorpal> elliott_, so what does it add to bf, I mean, since Ook is still on the wiki it has to be more mediocre than that
19:55:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Ook is vaguely tolerable due to novelty value and DMM armour.
19:55:16 <elliott_> PH is just saying it's crap :P
19:55:28 <elliott_> Ook is terrible, but it was, like, the first BF remapping.
19:55:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, dmm made ook!?
19:55:48 <elliott_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/David_Morgan-Mar
19:55:59 <Vorpal> elliott_, yes I know dmm made piet
19:56:08 <ais523> one BF remapping is clever
19:56:19 <ais523> BF derivatives wouldn't be so looked-down-upon if there weren't so many of them
19:56:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, the thing about DMM is that his stupid languages are unapologetic jokes.
19:56:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm true. Ook does have a slight humour value
19:57:10 <Phantom_Hoover> NF, OTOH, seems to be meant as an actual exercise in programming.
19:57:25 <elliott_> The creator Daniel Marschall announces a price for the person who implements
19:57:25 <elliott_> A comfortable "pong" game written in NetFuck 1.0 (Classic notation)
19:57:30 <elliott_> really tempted to ask what the prize is
19:57:50 <elliott_> although a comfortable pong game with BF IO is impossible, probably he's assuming , works instantly
19:57:59 <ralc> elliott_, do you have a link to the place where that guy wrote about his 1 year of CS study?
19:58:09 <elliott_> ralc: no no, one year of networking study
19:58:11 <elliott_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:NetFuck
19:58:30 <Phantom_Hoover> ralc, to be fair, that was in response to me saying he didn't know what networking or IPC were.
19:59:23 <elliott_> it would be great if a static connection between two programs meant that you embedded an identifier of the program it's connected to in the source
19:59:32 <elliott_> and then every instance of program A and B are connected to each other in the world, simultaneously
20:00:20 <cheater897> ralc, if you find it, can you link me up?
20:00:21 <ais523> we should make a parody of stupid BF derivatives
20:00:29 <ais523> that's the stupidest BF derivative we can think of
20:00:36 <Sgeo__> Does my BF derivative count as stupid
20:01:07 <ais523> Sgeo__: probably, although I haven't seen it; statistically speaking, most are
20:01:43 <ralc> cheater897, elliott_ just linked it
20:02:13 <elliott_> <ais523> we should make a parody of stupid BF derivatives
20:02:13 <elliott_> <ais523> that's the stupidest BF derivative we can think of
20:02:18 <elliott_> ais523: bf, but with the command meanings permuted
20:02:24 <Vorpal> <ais523> that's the stupidest BF derivative we can think of <-- that's deadfish. It is so stupid it is no longer turing complete.
20:02:28 <elliott_> i think that already exists :(
20:02:48 <ais523> I don't even consider Deadfish a BF deriv
20:03:00 <elliott_> plus misinterpret . as decimal output
20:03:02 <Phantom_Hoover> As in it wasn't an interesting idea, but it didn't actually take *effort* to be stupid.
20:03:07 <ais523> why don't we just remove ]?
20:03:07 <elliott_> ais523: I didn't before now but now I have to
20:03:17 <elliott_> yes, and then try and justify looping still being possible
20:03:18 <ralc> it just caught my attention, being a CS student myself.. one year teaches you sh*t
20:03:18 <Vorpal> <ais523> I don't even consider Deadfish a BF deriv <-- yes it is, if you kind of squint and move your head back and forth
20:03:23 <elliott_> because a[b is obviously the same as a[b[a[b[a[b[a[...
20:04:10 <ais523> this reminds me of Minimum
20:04:15 <ais523> which is one of my favourite joke languages
20:04:18 <Vorpal> elliott_, another idea. bf with whitespace syntax.
20:04:49 <Phantom_Hoover> <ralc> it just caught my attention, being a CS student myself.. one year teaches you sh*t
20:05:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, a what
20:05:33 <ralc> i had to google that
20:05:33 <elliott_> ais523: there is actually one valid Minimum program, depending on how you interpret things
20:05:45 <elliott_> ais523: unfortunately, it just hangs
20:05:52 <cheater897> ais523, who deleted my entry on the esolang wiki?
20:05:54 <ais523> elliott_: there are multiple valid Minimum programs
20:06:12 <ais523> a Minimum program is the application of one Minimum program to another, right?
20:06:15 <cheater897> elliott_, someone's not talking to you
20:06:22 <elliott_> cheater897: (Deletion log); 18:21 . . Ais523 (Talk | contribs) (deleted "GNU Operating System": factually incorrect, not particularly interesting, and not an esolang)
20:07:05 <cheater897> ais523, have you deleted my entry on the esolang wiki?
20:07:19 <ais523> cheater897: the deletion log is public knowledge, you know
20:07:27 <ais523> and yes, because there was no useful content there
20:07:29 <cheater897> ais523, i don't know how to access it.
20:07:34 <elliott_> no you see you have to tell him you did so he can yell at you and waste your time.
20:07:40 <ais523> typing Special:Log/delete is probably the easiest way
20:08:03 <cheater897> why did you think there was no useful content in there?
20:08:41 <ais523> cheater897: well, /was/ there any useful content in there?
20:08:52 <ais523> merely observing that quines exist does not imply that something is an esolang
20:09:33 <cheater897> ais523, why would you say the kernel shebang interpreter is not an esolang?
20:09:51 <ais523> because it just runs arbitrary executables
20:09:57 <Vorpal> hm, *tries to think of a haskell quine*. I guess you could do the usual way, but format strings simplify that quite a bit
20:09:59 <ais523> that's a) useful, and b) computationally uninteresting
20:10:02 <ais523> thus the opposite of an esolang
20:10:16 <cheater897> how many websites are there that explain its workings in full?
20:11:16 <HackEgo> 36) <augur> augur: pretty true.
20:11:58 <cheater897> ais523, i am asking because i believe the answer to that question challenges your notion that it's not an esoteric language.
20:12:17 <ais523> cheater897: quite a few, I imagine, because it is very simple
20:12:45 <elliott_> vortex is higher-dimensional mathematics
20:12:48 <ais523> and I can't be bothered to find the relevant portion of the source code
20:13:14 <cheater897> ais523, your imagination is not right.
20:13:35 <elliott_> that's a really stupid way of saying "you're wrong"
20:13:37 <cheater897> ais523, just google for "shebang interpreter" and see how many tutorials you find that explain e.g. how parameters are parsed there.
20:13:40 <elliott_> which is a stupid thing to say to start with
20:13:43 <ais523> cheater897: you just made an unsubstantiated statement that something in particular did not exist on the internet
20:13:44 <elliott_> nobody says "shebang interpreter"
20:13:54 <ais523> in fact, I invoke rule 35 on you right now, just to make you feel the implications
20:14:08 <cheater897> you have said "quite a few", and i have said that that was wrong.
20:14:19 <cheater897> "not quite a few" does not equal "none".
20:15:47 <elliott_> a herp derp derp a derp derp derp derp
20:16:01 <cheater897> ais523: i believe that's a logically sound argument. what do you answer to it?
20:16:12 <ais523> cheater897: that your logic is very wrong (counterexample: INTERCAL)
20:16:38 <ais523> or, basically, that you're saying A! well, B might be relevant! You said C, but you're wrong, thus I win the argument!
20:16:51 <olsner> why does upgrading libc in ubuntu involve generating/compiling/herp-derping a million locales?
20:16:54 <ais523> and counterexample to B
20:17:02 <elliott_> ais523: why are you being distracted by an irrelevant argument, anyway? his page did not fully explain the "shebang interpreter" anyway
20:17:06 <ais523> I'll let you fill in the metasyntactic variables yourself, because they really don't matter
20:17:15 <elliott_> so his argument is dismissable from the start
20:17:18 <ais523> elliott_: because winning the argument three times is more fun than winning it once
20:17:24 <ais523> I've won it twice already
20:17:26 <olsner> herp_DERP.ISO-8859-7 will be so very useful for me
20:17:34 <ais523> I think I lost it the third time, but that was a very pointless argument
20:17:40 <cheater897> here is my argument: 1. an esoteric language is a language that is not widely understood 2. there are only very few widely known documents on this specific interpreter 3. therefore, it is not widely known 4. that makes it esoteric
20:17:40 <pikhq_> Wow. Gold and silver are now legal tender in Utah.
20:17:44 <elliott_> ais523: I should keep a score card
20:17:51 <pikhq_> And this changes *nothing* but the herp and the derp.
20:17:57 <elliott_> cheater897: that is not a widely-accepted definition of esolang
20:18:06 <elliott_> in fact, our frontpage directly contradicts it
20:18:12 <cheater897> elliott_, there's someone who's not talking to you
20:18:17 <ais523> cheater897: I disagree with 1 and 4, and I think 2 and 3 may also both be wrong
20:18:18 <elliott_> "An esoteric programming language (sometimes shortened to esolang) is a programming language designed as a test of the boundaries of computer programming language design, as a proof of concept, or as a joke."
20:18:40 <pikhq_> (as someone who would not accept gold for a debt is a complete moron)
20:18:47 <elliott_> cheater897: Nobody is talking to you; I'm sitting from the sidelines mocking you, and ais523 is apparently bored enough to try and humour you
20:18:55 <elliott_> But there's definitely nothing so mutually intellectual as talking going on.
20:19:20 <ais523> elliott_: you forgot to mention olsner
20:19:35 <elliott_> ais523: olsner isn't talking, he's monologuing :)
20:19:51 <ais523> pikhq_'s statements were interesting, but I have nothing to say in response to them
20:20:02 <olsner> ais523: I'm just herping the derps, don't mind me
20:20:28 <ais523> olsner: I mean to ask; what exactly does herp mean, and how does it differ from derp?
20:20:33 <ais523> I was actually curious enough to look it up
20:20:38 <ais523> and found explanations of derp, but not herp
20:20:53 <elliott_> ais523: Herp and derp are the two constituent components of herp derp.
20:20:57 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Because herp derp.
20:20:58 <olsner> ais523: in other news, the sr_CS.ISO-8859-5@jekavian locale is broken
20:20:59 <elliott_> OMG THAT'S WHAT OUR WORST BF DERIVATIVE MUST BE
20:21:04 <elliott_> Ook, but with herp and derp rather than ook and punctuation
20:21:07 <ralc> i have a feeling that being in here long enough...
20:21:14 <ais523> ralc: sorry about this
20:21:19 <cheater897> ais523, programming the shebang interpreter is by definition hard, because it's not meant to be programmed in
20:21:30 <elliott_> ralc: Especially when cheater's talking.
20:21:31 <ais523> cheater897: nor is MS Paint
20:21:51 <cheater897> ais523, if you figured out how to computer-program ms paint, i'd applaud.
20:21:55 <elliott_> ais523: actually, your MS Paint tic-tac-toe AI counts as a proof that esoteric programming can be done in Paint
20:22:00 <elliott_> doesn't prove MS Paint an esolang, ofc
20:22:03 <Phantom_Hoover> The worst BF derivatives are those that, in dbc's words, attempt to make a luxury car by sticking parts onto a skateboard.
20:22:16 <elliott_> <cheater> someone not talking to you herp derp
20:22:25 <elliott_> oh man what, you're talking to me sometimes??
20:22:37 <ais523> elliott_: I think a separate term is needed for trying to use things not intended as programming languages at all as esoprograms
20:22:41 <cheater897> i see you have a problem with tenses. are you sure you're british?
20:22:44 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: And then remaking the skateboard out of herp derp.
20:22:58 <ais523> I went and implemented the same tic-tac-toe program in a variety of other programs I had lying around on the computer too
20:23:04 <ais523> such as Powerpoint and WinHlp32
20:23:06 <elliott_> cheater897: hmm, the fact that nobody actually wants to talk to you is now blatantly obvious to everyone watching
20:23:11 <elliott_> so, either you're extremely dense, or a troll
20:23:20 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott_, yes, but superfluous additions to the language that fail to understand minimalism are crucial to making the Platonic worst BF derivative.
20:23:23 <elliott_> unfortunately, I already expected both, so that doesn't actually prove anything either way conclusively
20:23:27 <cheater897> ais523, how did you implement it in there?
20:23:29 <ais523> actually, I /think/ it was winhelp (16-bit)'s format, being implemented for backwards compatibility
20:23:33 <ais523> cheater897: it's not hard
20:23:44 <cheater897> ais523, that does not answer the question, though.
20:23:53 <pikhq_> ... MS paint tic-tac-toe AI‽
20:23:57 <ais523> note that you can express a tic-tac-toe solver as a finite state machine
20:24:09 <ais523> pikhq_: it was on filebin.ca, so is probably down by now
20:24:09 <zzo38> How can you make MS paint tic-tac-tie AI or programming the shebang interpreter?
20:24:11 <elliott_> pikhq_: spoiler: it works with the flood tool
20:24:15 <ais523> but I can repost it on imgur or somewhere
20:24:31 <elliott_> ais523: imgur, perfect web host for Piet and MS Paint programs
20:24:38 <ais523> wow, this file is so old its filename is in uppercase
20:24:53 <ais523> -rw-r--r-- 1 ais523 ais523 599574 2003-11-04 01:05 OANDX.BMP
20:24:57 <elliott_> The flood tool is actually fairly computationally impressive IMO
20:25:11 <ais523> the main issue was getting rid of wire-crossings
20:25:32 <elliott_> has the wire-crossing problem ever been conclusively solved?
20:25:43 <ais523> gah Gnome's file chooser is the most annoying ever
20:26:00 <ais523> elliott_: I tried, but gave up when I figured out I didn't actually know what the wire-crossing problem meant
20:26:05 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott_, both me and ais523 have come to the conclusion that it is so poorly-defined that it cannot be solved in any meaningful way.
20:26:26 <zzo38> What is programming the shebang interpreter supposted to means?
20:26:41 <elliott_> zzo38: it means next to nothing
20:26:43 <ais523> http://i.imgur.com/ip6xZ.png
20:27:13 <ais523> hmm, imgur's translating of it to .png will prevent it opening in Windows 3.1
20:27:20 <ais523> although presumably more modern versions of Paint will be able to cope
20:28:19 <Sgeo__> "I'm not sure if there are actually theories that don't pertain to Lord English in that thread, but you should ask there anyway."
20:28:31 <ais523> also, ouch that border is ugly
20:28:44 <elliott_> Sgeo__: stop reading the worst forum :P
20:29:04 <Sgeo__> How is it the worst forum? Just because it's official in some sense?
20:29:19 <elliott_> No, it's the worst forum because it's the worst forum
20:29:26 <pikhq_> ais523: Hmm, does it do perfect play?
20:29:44 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: any with the same algorithm, ofc
20:29:55 <ais523> pikhq_: no, in that it doesn't always take an opportunity to win
20:30:29 <zzo38> Ah it is because of the way X&O game works, it is possible to do this.
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20:30:30 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: any tool that changes the color of an area of constant color
20:30:33 <Sgeo__> ais523, is there a version where the wires etc. are difficult to see?
20:30:43 <zzo38> Other games you might can't.
20:30:57 <ais523> Sgeo__: they were on a 640x480 screen on a computer with 4-bit color depth
20:31:12 <pikhq_> Sgeo__: This is for Win 3.1 colors.
20:31:28 <ais523> but you can see them anyway once they turn black
20:33:35 <zzo38> Can you do more complicated things like that by using fiood fills that have a tolerance value?
20:34:22 <elliott_> that would allow wire-crossing
20:34:40 <elliott_> where the two |s have colours two pixels away
20:34:43 <ais523> zzo38: I experimented along those lines; I concluded it was probably possible, but failed to make anything interesting
20:34:45 <elliott_> and the +- is in between the two colours
20:35:01 <ais523> elliott_: Burn worked along similar lines, IIRC
20:35:04 <ais523> I just can't remember how
20:35:12 <elliott_> hmm, there's a problem, though
20:35:16 <elliott_> you need /recursive/ tolerance
20:35:29 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: that's irrelevant, everything is once-only here
20:35:34 <elliott_> ais523: i.e. it has to be tolerance relative to the last pixel you coloured
20:35:41 <elliott_> otherwise, a crossed wire can't cross on to another wire
20:36:10 <ais523> actually, that wouldn't work either
20:36:16 <ais523> or the crossing wouldn't work at all
20:36:22 <Sgeo__> Link to MSPA forum horribleness?
20:37:20 <cheater897> zzo38, the linux kernel has a special interpreter built in
20:37:42 <cheater897> zzo38, it interprets the first line of scripts that you run as executables. the first line has the form of #!/bin/bash or something like that.
20:38:18 <ais523> cheater897: that is not a programming language interpreter
20:38:24 <ais523> it runs executables, that's it
20:38:24 <zzo38> cheater897: I know that. I think it has to start #! followed by the filename of the program, and a space and parameter and then a line feed
20:39:33 <zzo38> And you have to have +x permissions on the file.
20:40:59 <cheater897> zzo38, pretty much, yes, except for versions of unix where that's not the case.
20:41:34 <elliott_> ais523: you realise he's not going to listen to you no matter what you say?
20:41:48 <cheater897> ais523, it does not run executables, just specific one
20:42:55 <zzo38> cheater897: In what versions of UNIX does it differ, and in what ways?
20:43:06 <cheater897> zzo38, well you don't always have +x..
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20:46:18 <Sgeo__> "Q: The Homestuck TVTropes page says-
20:46:18 <Sgeo__> A: The TVTropes page is a joke."
20:49:41 <ais523> cheater897: http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/functions/execve.html (search for the "rationale" section)
20:50:11 <ais523> it seems that the reason that you yourself couldn't find a widely available description of shebang lines is that it is, in fact, not standardised, and merely a POSIX-sanctioned behaviour for running executables
20:50:14 <elliott_> <h4><a name="tag_03_130_08"></a>RATIONALE</h4>
20:50:21 <elliott_> you could have used an anchor :-)
20:50:25 <ais523> elliott_: I was wondering about htat
20:50:35 <ais523> but couldn't find any obvious way to determine what it is
20:50:41 <ais523> and didn't want to check the source
20:50:53 <ais523> especially because the site uses frames
20:51:01 <elliott_> in both chrome and Firefox-with-firebug
20:51:07 <ais523> its source is pretty clean, though
20:51:17 <ais523> didn't want to load Firebug either
20:51:43 <elliott_> oh, right, Firebug has a performance penalty
20:52:16 <cheater897> ais523, many versions of the interpreter will not execute scripts as the embedded interpreter
20:53:04 <Sgeo__> http://www.mspaforums.com/showthread.php?37956-MSPA-Simple-Questions-Thread
20:55:33 <cheater897> ais523, scripts are executables too.. but those versions of the kernels will only execute binaries.
20:55:46 <ais523> cheater897: you lost the argument ages ago
20:55:55 <ais523> so I'm not entirely sure why you're still trying
20:56:04 <cheater897> you think i'm still going on with that argument?
20:56:23 <elliott_> "I'm not arguing, I'm just responding to counterarguments you're making."
20:56:42 <elliott_> hmm, I wonder who here /isn't/ mentally ill according to cheater
20:56:47 <cheater897> i understand erratic behaviour from elliott_, he's not really completely right in the head
20:57:27 <cheater897> elliott_, i think the set is {elliott}^c
20:58:19 * ais523 takes the powerset of elliott
20:58:33 <ais523> (note: it's {elliott, not elliott})
21:00:05 <cheater897> elliott_: if you invested as much energy into being friendly as you do into being repulsive, we'd both be much happier.
21:00:41 <elliott_> nah, I've tried being friendly to you but it turns out you're too stupid
21:00:44 <cheater897> ais523, either way, i agree with you that maybe that page doesn't belong on the esolang wiki.
21:01:06 <elliott_> no, actually, I was quite friendly to you when you first came here, so was everyone else
21:01:12 <cheater897> ais523, i think you're right there should be a place for this sort of thing
21:01:23 <elliott_> when on earth did ais523 say that?
21:01:48 <cheater897> elliott_, then you had a mental breakdown and picked a target, and becuase no one else wanted you to live it out on them, they just ignored it, and then went with it
21:02:10 <elliott_> yes. absolutely. this is definitely what you believe.
21:02:20 <cheater897> but, that conversation doesn't really belong in here.
21:02:25 <elliott_> nor does anything else you say
21:03:30 <ais523> elliott_: what /was/ that program you ran in B Nomic?
21:03:31 <cheater897> ais523, if you somehow come up with an area on the esolang wiki to put the "usual" languages, i can populate it with "funny" behaviour in a few languages.
21:03:34 <ais523> I remember you did, but not what it did
21:03:36 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: The most eloquent message ever said.
21:03:43 <elliott_> cheater897: That's not ais' decision to make and it doesn't belong on the esolang wiki.
21:03:45 <ais523> cheater897: I don't have the userrights to do that sort of thing
21:04:03 <elliott_> The only person who could sign away their server space to being filled with your absolutely retarded ideas is Graue.
21:04:03 <ais523> and even if I could, wouldn't without Graue's approval, and especially not since the category debacle
21:04:18 <elliott_> Maybe Graue is somehow stupid enough to, though. Or maybe we'll fork and Timwi will be the new admin :-P
21:04:49 <ais523> I think it's on [[Esolang talk:Categories]], but i can't remember
21:05:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey elliott_ you really suck as well come at me breakdownily bro.
21:06:19 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: I hate you so much. Totes.
21:06:33 <cheater897> ais523, do you mean this? http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Talk:Categories
21:06:41 <zzo38> cheater897: Put things about "funny" behaviour in a few "usual" languages in subpages of your userpages if it doesn't go with the normal stuff.
21:07:20 <ais523> cheater897: no, that's a blank page
21:07:34 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Categorisation
21:07:35 <cheater897> ais523, i know. what url did you mean then?
21:07:46 <ais523> assuming I've remembered the name right
21:08:00 <Phantom_Hoover> HATE. LET ME TELL YOU HOW MUCH I'VE COME TO HATE ELLIOTT SINCE I BEGAN TO LIVE. THERE ARE 387.44 MILLION MILES OF PRINTED HOOVER FILTERS IN WAFER THIN LAYERS THAT FILL MY COMPLEX. IF THE WORD HATE WAS ENGRAVED ON EACH NANOANGSTROM OF THOSE HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF MILES IT WOULD NOT EQUAL ONE ONE-BILLIONTH OF THE HATE I FEEL FOR ELLIOTT AT THIS MICRO-INSTANT FOR YOU. HATE. HATE.
21:08:09 <ais523> the page does exist, I just can't remember where it is..
21:08:51 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: this is even more breakdown-relieving than cheater897
21:09:42 <ais523> elliott_: you were right, it is indeed z rather than s
21:09:51 <elliott_> ais523: Americans running our wiki :|
21:10:20 <Phantom_Hoover> You would have to die painfully about 200 times before I started not hating you.
21:10:26 <ais523> but that page only hits the tail end of the debacle
21:10:32 <elliott_> ais523: that posix page you linked is confusing
21:10:36 <elliott_> Applications that do not require to access their arguments may use the form:
21:10:36 <elliott_> as specified in the ISO C standard. However, the implementation will always provide the two arguments argc and argv, even if they are not used.
21:10:45 <elliott_> Two arguments will be provided that cannot possibly be accessed in any way
21:10:56 <ais523> elliott_: it's POSIX, did you expect it to make sense?
21:11:00 <elliott_> in fact, passing two arguments to a (void) function might even break some conforming C implementations, no?
21:11:54 <elliott_> "It's kind of a pity that MediaWiki makes a distinction between articles and categories (instead of, say, just having some sort of general "can-be-classified-under" association between articles.) What if I want to see a list of all languages designed by Gerson Kurz, for instance...?"
21:12:00 <elliott_> someone needs to tell Chris Pressey about "what links here" six years ago
21:14:00 <elliott_> anyway, http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/User_talk:Stux#Incident is the actual beginning of the categorisation drama
21:14:09 <elliott_> although can it really be said to be drama if Graue is the only participant?
21:14:21 <ais523> well, it was drama, and I think other people commented on it
21:14:22 <elliott_> ooh, someone brave should add an {{unsigned}} template to that
21:14:41 <elliott_> and also, Graue's other comment
21:14:51 <elliott_> hmm, Keymaker used ~~~~~ by mistake too later on
21:14:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Well OK I am foolhardy but there's basically no difference.
21:15:15 <ais523> <Stux> And I appreciate your response Graue for replying to my post and explaining your actions (No offense, but Graue, could you sign your posts more often? It's taken me 3 months to realize that it was one of your replies posted here).
21:15:19 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: statements like that are also why you're not our leader
21:17:40 <elliott_> ais523: hmm, do you think we have consensus for [[Category:Turning tarpits]]?
21:18:00 <elliott_> "In a few days, if no one complains, I'll add the category." --Maharba in April
21:20:21 <elliott_> and added to appropriate pages
21:20:34 <elliott_> (→Incident - Add unsigned. Also, why does this thing demand a timestamp.)
21:20:41 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: because you should include a template
21:20:44 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: because you should include a timestamp
21:20:54 <elliott_> please fix it so I don't have to, I'm lazy :)
21:20:58 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott_, yes but I really can't be bothered checking the history.
21:21:29 <elliott_> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Stux&diff=2936&oldid=2935
21:21:48 <Vorpal> in mediawiki that is a sin
21:22:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Yet another reason LQT is bad and people who like it should be shot.
21:22:32 <ais523> if people top-post when emailing me, I edit their message into a bottom-post before replying to it
21:22:45 <elliott_> ais523: I usually omit nested quotes
21:22:52 <elliott_> they're usually irrelevant/annoying in email
21:23:16 <ais523> but in the case where they're relevant, I edit them into top-posts
21:24:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh an extension?
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21:24:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Explaining would derail the conversation pointlessly, so you might as well just Google it.
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21:25:14 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: pointless derails are what IRC discussions are mostly made of, aren't they?
21:25:55 <elliott_> It would be nice if Graue upgraded the wiki.
21:26:07 <elliott_> I wonder if Vector would expose the trilime's horrible white edges.
21:26:46 <Vorpal> elliott_, why do we have the trilime for the logo
21:26:57 <elliott_> Vorpal: you have asked that at least twenty times.
21:27:09 <Vorpal> elliott_, no more than 19
21:27:12 <elliott_> And don't grep for "trilime" since I'm the only person who calls it that :P
21:27:21 <Vorpal> elliott_, right, why then
21:28:37 <zzo38> I don't know if anyone knows why
21:28:46 <Vorpal> elliott_, why the logo
21:29:38 <elliott_> Vorpal: ask ais523, he's the one you normally ask.
21:29:56 <elliott_> because I can't be arsed to answer
21:29:59 <Vorpal> elliott_, I ask you this time
21:30:06 <ais523> elliott_: so far, he's statistically asked about Google's, YouTube's, and Apple's logos more often than Esolangs
21:30:21 <Vorpal> I have asked about apple's logo?
21:30:32 <Vorpal> ais523, I think I complained about firefox logo
21:30:33 <elliott_> ais523: I am so glad you are keeping track of this
21:30:34 <ais523> yes, mostly about the positioning on an iPhone-alike
21:30:44 <ais523> elliott_: I wasn't, I'm just messing with grep
21:30:55 <Vorpal> ais523, so tell me about the esolang logo...
21:31:08 <Vorpal> assume I have a short memory or something
21:31:18 <ais523> Vorpal: there isn't much to say
21:31:29 <Vorpal> ais523, right, that's all? :P
21:31:34 <ais523> I think the official answer is "it's just an image Graue chose as a placeholder, and people decided they liked it"
21:32:14 <Vorpal> ais523, is it public domain?
21:32:37 <ais523> I assume so, given that it's on the wiki, but I don't know for certain
21:32:39 <elliott_> Grrrrr I wish I still had the -- aha
21:33:25 <elliott_> http://www.mca-ltd.com/martin/Ten15/introduction.html
21:34:19 <elliott_> "The compilers were (loosely speaking) just functions from "text objects" to module values, and a module value was just a record containing the interface specification, and compiled data and function values. There were no such things as include files; if a program needed to link with a library, then (a capability to) the library's module value was simply inserted into the persistent "text object" holding the program's source."
21:34:40 <elliott_> Programmed in Algol-68 except with first class functions.
21:36:25 <ais523> elliott_: Algol but with first class functions? what was the syntax for declaring variables that held functions?
21:42:11 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: because Wikia deserves to be randomly sweared at
21:42:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Are you on the MSPA wiki and being driven mad by the interstitials?
21:42:33 <ais523> the skin thing was the last straw for me
21:42:57 <ais523> I still read it sometimes, but have a browser extension force it to monobook, and no longer correct mistakes I see on Wikia wikis
21:44:42 <Sgeo__> Phantom_Hoover, more by my inability to just middle-click external links
21:45:22 <Sgeo__> At least right-click -> open in new tab works properly for me
21:45:38 <Phantom_Hoover> I was trying to make a Greasemonkey script to disable it, but it didn't work.
21:45:50 * Sgeo__ vaguely remembers that his trackpad doesn't have a middle button, and that he
21:45:56 <Sgeo__> he's been Ctrl-clicking
21:46:36 <ais523> mine does, but I've been control-clicking anyway
21:46:37 <elliott_> <ais523> elliott_: Algol but with first class functions? what was the syntax for declaring variables that held functions?
21:46:45 <elliott_> it just let functions escape their closure thing
21:46:50 <elliott_> so, same as declaring a nested one
21:46:50 <ais523> because to middle-click, you have to simultaneously hold down both ends of the button bar, or else tap the top-right corner
21:47:37 <elliott_> I middle-click with three fingers FWIW
21:48:14 <ais523> the touchpad here can't detect that
21:48:21 <ais523> either that or the driver can't, but that seems less likely
21:48:33 <ais523> especially as it acts like a single-touch touchpad would if you put multiple fingers on it
21:48:47 <Vorpal> I have a proper middlebutton for my trackpoint, but not for the touchpad
21:48:56 <Vorpal> not that I use the touch pad
21:50:01 <elliott_> ais523: well, it doesn't work in OS X, but it does in Linux
21:51:15 <Vorpal> elliott_, how do you do it in OS X?
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22:01:04 <elliott_> installing samba will allow use of the gnome file sharing preference on ubuntu, right?
22:01:24 -!- ralc has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:01:40 <elliott_> it seems to recommend apache, though
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22:44:21 <elliott_> man i used to really not understand filesystem organisation.
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22:57:53 <elliott_> Searching Samba shares: the slowest thing?
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23:00:23 <oerjan> New post on the forum (and a reply by me)
23:01:10 <elliott_> Is it Timwi asking how to contact Graue?
23:01:14 <pikhq> Hell is very cold today: DNF went gold.
23:01:27 <elliott_> pikhq: AND someone posted on the esolangs forum
23:01:30 <oerjan> more interesting than that :D
23:01:34 <elliott_> oerjan: He's done that at least twice to my knowledge :P
23:01:36 <pikhq> elliott_: Hell is positively chilly, then.
23:01:50 <oerjan> (although not much, if you already know this stuff)
23:02:12 <elliott_> hm I wonder who's spreading such MISCONCEPTIONS
23:02:36 * oerjan guesses who is elliott_'s first suspect
23:02:58 <pikhq> So, it will almost certainly be out June 14.
23:02:58 <elliott_> erm who is my first suspect in your estimation
23:03:06 <elliott_> pikhq: oh, you mean the /real/ date of the rapture
23:03:08 <elliott_> everyone was just off by a few
23:03:15 <pikhq> (unless some horrendous mishap occurs)
23:03:19 <elliott_> SUDDENLY EVERYTHING MAKES SENSE.
23:03:32 <pikhq> elliott_: Yes, the rapture will actually take up the true believers in Duke.
23:04:23 <elliott_> the game will probably be inevitably shitty
23:04:48 <pikhq> I wouldn't go that far. It *could* actually be decent.
23:04:57 <pikhq> It most *certainly* will fail to live up to the hype.
23:09:26 <elliott_> where is my old code :((((((((
23:09:56 <elliott_> this is an important part of my childhood oerjan
23:11:31 <elliott_> it's certainly part of my childhood insofar as I never bothered having one ;D
23:11:34 <oerjan> <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: because Wikia deserves to be randomly sweared at
23:11:45 <oerjan> what is with ais being emotional lately
23:12:17 <oerjan> ...that was an example
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23:12:22 <elliott_> 21:41:21: <Sgeo__> CURSE IT WIKIA
23:12:22 <elliott_> 21:41:56: <Phantom_Hoover> Why have you been randomly cursing Wikia lately.
23:12:22 <elliott_> 21:42:11: <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: because Wikia deserves to be randomly sweared at
23:12:25 <Sgeo__> I never thought ais523 was Dr. Gears
23:12:31 <elliott_> that's just ais expressing a standard anti-Wikia position
23:12:38 <elliott_> phrased in a humorous manner wrt Sgeo's line
23:12:49 <elliott_> oerjan: note that ais isn't the one who actually cursed.
23:12:56 <oerjan> elliott_: well he elaborated a bit
23:13:03 <Sgeo__> Is "CURSE IT" a curse?
23:13:06 <elliott_> I'm not sure how that's emotional
23:13:10 <elliott_> Sgeo__: by ais' standards, probably
23:13:11 <oerjan> no, but i didn't recall him having that strong opinions
23:13:24 <oerjan> maybe i've just not paid attention
23:13:27 <elliott_> that... doesn't seem strong at all to me :D
23:13:38 <elliott_> <PH> Why have you been cursing Windows lately.
23:13:39 <oerjan> elliott_: there was that event the other day though
23:14:07 <Sgeo__> Incidentally, I said "curse" it and not a word I wanted to say since I didn't want to offend ais523
23:14:19 <elliott_> Sgeo__: he doesn't care about inanimate objects, AFAICT
23:14:33 <elliott_> it's if you curse him to eternal damnation that he gets paranoid
23:14:40 <oerjan> <ais523> how dare you!
23:14:59 <elliott_> 18:33:03: <ais523> you mentioned SpectateSwamp in here?
23:14:59 <elliott_> 18:33:05: <ais523> how dare you!
23:15:13 <elliott_> this may not be obvious if you're not familiar with spectateswamp
23:15:51 <oerjan> although the rest of the conversation seemed to imply someone a bit nutty
23:18:18 <monqy> I remember someone linked a site claiming he's the stupidest person in the world but that's it
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23:21:01 <monqy> the site itself or the instance of someone linking to it
23:21:09 <monqy> or are you talking to yourself
23:26:30 <Sgeo__> elliott_, where ii2 thii2
23:28:13 <coppro> We're now replacing the letter i2 with i2? Thii2 plan cannot poi2i2ibly be bad!
23:29:36 <elliott_> coppro: it's sollux's typing quirk
23:29:45 <elliott_> Sgeo__: i saved you from a long and probably cringeworthy explanation line you're welcome
23:29:58 <coppro> elliott_: you mean i2ollux?
23:30:20 <elliott_> coppro: i might mean tholluckths
23:31:52 <elliott_> you just turned his message into "you mean ii2ollux", congratulations
23:32:25 <coppro> I don't recognize that character at the start of your linei2, I2geo.
23:32:27 <elliott_> Sgeo__: you also forgot s/<thing that sounds like "to">/two/ but unfortunately most regexp engines don't have DWIM replacements so i will let it pass
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23:42:23 <oerjan> thii2 remindi2 me of the problem with i2ubi2tituting i2ingle characteri2 in ///
23:44:34 <elliott_> oerjan: stop butchering the quirk ;_;
23:44:42 <elliott_> a little pang of pain pains inside me each time
23:45:06 <oerjan> also of Victor Borge's number incrementation
23:45:44 <Sgeo__> oerjan, it's one i gets replaced with ii
23:45:49 <Sgeo__> And s gets replaced with 2
23:46:06 <Sgeo__> And <sound of too> gets replaced with two
23:46:25 <Sgeo__> Weird how in some circumstances, it's indistinguishable from what you proposed
23:46:32 <elliott_> i mean the "to" in "tonight" doesn't exactly sound like "too" but he still says twonight
23:47:09 <Sgeo__> And for with four, iirc
23:47:31 <elliott_> um i don't think so but i'll check
23:48:01 <oerjan> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YY6kElOYcd8
23:48:26 <elliott_> Sgeo__: Nope, in fact he's never said four, not once
23:48:38 <elliott_> (grepped /four/ on http://mspaintadventures.com/?search=6_2)
23:48:56 <elliott_> great waste of a minute there elliott
23:50:20 <elliott_> oh perhaps it is in my documents
23:50:29 <elliott_> (i am searching my _really_ old files)
23:51:56 <oerjan> googling for "sollux" without adding something like "cartoon" doesn't work very well
23:52:18 <oerjan> although the image hits on page two gave a clue
23:52:37 <elliott_> Sollux Captor - MS Paint Adventures Wiki
23:52:42 <elliott_> i realise google personalises the results, but
23:53:07 <elliott_> http://mspaintadventures.wikia.com/wiki/Sollux_Captor
23:53:46 <oerjan> well it was 4th here, and somehow my eyes passed it because the "Captor" looked like the kind of thing you would add to the boat trademark that was my first hits
23:54:45 <oerjan> apparently it's a norwegian boat company
23:56:15 <oerjan> in fact that's the _only_ relevant hit on the first page