< 1306627379 725235 :hagb4rd!~hagb4rd@koln-4d0b6989.pool.mediaWays.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1306627426 175497 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :$$dest = sprintf($format, $a, $b, ...); would emulate the C behavior. Assuming $dest is a ref < 1306627594 256660 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :people use refs? < 1306627611 259128 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1306627623 942066 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably it would be useful sometimes, isn't it? < 1306627632 585014 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :somewhat often, actually. < 1306627643 18944 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :mainly because of some unusual things Perl does with non-scalar values. < 1306627663 945296 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :scalar refs are less common than list refs, code refs, and hash refs. < 1306627720 981571 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I realized I need to add three new input states into TeXnicard and try to decide what letter. The three new states I think I need are: font loading state, character encoding state, image manipulation state. < 1306627772 458445 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, @list = ($a, $1, @otherlist) concatenates @otherlist, because lists/hash can only contain scalars. So the best way to embed an array into another array in Perl is to have the inner array as a reference. < 1306627811 583278 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :same thing with argument passing, since the arguments are treated as one array. < 1306628080 721178 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right. < 1306628088 118511 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is because Perl sucks. < 1306628102 809226 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl sucks? < 1306628105 28779 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's very golfable. < 1306628192 184978 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would actually make a case for Perl as an example of a mostly well-designed language. < 1306628237 265999 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would make a case for copious amounts of cocaine for everyone, too. < 1306628271 170325 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.netsurf-browser.org/ < 1306628276 907172 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm... Intrigued. < 1306628297 301793 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :good name there < 1306628328 801976 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: It's shitty with JS, IIRC. < 1306628375 765351 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what does it do < 1306628377 199955 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I run with Noscript on. < 1306628384 873373 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: browses the web < 1306628413 735340 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it have any features besides that < 1306628416 110845 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see a back button < 1306628417 730690 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's something < 1306628428 211859 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems to be a minimal, standards-compliant web browser. < 1306628432 14577 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the custom rendering engine that's interesting < 1306628459 847496 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't live without a ridiculous amount of open tabs < 1306628534 194765 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got this kinda odd issue... < 1306628543 54112 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want my web browser to not suck. < 1306628640 58672 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to have that issue too < 1306628648 334499 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :drowned self in tabs < 1306628649 913680 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :all better now < 1306628697 880186 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use Chrome. I don't really have any problems with it. < 1306628713 310244 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :chrome omits the http:// < 1306628716 138338 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :drives me mad to no end < 1306628725 405777 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably other stuff too < 1306628728 16616 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: that drives you mad? < 1306628734 628478 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have problems < 1306628737 970048 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't look at my url bar and go OH NO WHERE'S THE HTTP:// THAT I ALREADY KNOW IS "REALLY" THERE < 1306628740 878749 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree that's kind of strange. < 1306628746 343310 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it shows https:// < 1306628751 287913 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got a handful of issues with Chrome. < 1306628752 233773 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, because https is actually noteworthy < 1306628753 695142 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ftp:// too < 1306628766 901690 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Honestly, Midori would be my ideal browser if it didn't crash on me. < 1306628779 91781 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Not tried it out recently. Let's see if it's more stable now. < 1306628781 476637 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :one thing Chrome never does is crash. < 1306628794 859700 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The tabs crash sometimes. Like if you run out of memory. < 1306628796 822317 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :chrome's searchbar thing can be annoying when it guesses what I want incorrectly < 1306628809 397240 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather < 1306628809 796223 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so type out what you mean yourself :P < 1306628812 34033 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :One think Midori does is have a nice, minimal UI. < 1306628829 200165 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it's most awful when I do that and it still does it wrong < 1306628836 135154 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: press backspace < 1306628838 486675 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's rare though < 1306628839 936518 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly QUIT :Quit: swatted to death < 1306628840 579064 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sucks i agree < 1306628845 59443 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: that's what it means. Sometimes it'll autocomplete something even thought you typed out the whole thing. You have to hit backspace to get what you originally typed. somewhat annoying < 1306628854 211729 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh... yes. < 1306628872 27358 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :even without autocomplete < 1306628888 879099 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :even without autocomplete? wat < 1306628895 729700 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes it thinks I'm searching when I enter what I meant to be an address < 1306628897 993980 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and vice-versa < 1306628909 266320 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually the only time I get tab crashes in Chrome is when the Flash plugin crashes. < 1306628946 698149 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if the mactel-support packages are available in Debian :/ < 1306628953 57604 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://launchpad.net/~mactel-support/+archive/ppa < 1306628957 938068 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then it's like "oh no, *ctrl+r" < 1306628960 609211 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. xf86-input-multitouch < 1306628990 900127 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no web browser that does not suck. < 1306629015 95897 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :...honestly I think there are several web browsers that don't suck. You guys are just weird or picky about strange things. < 1306629034 868627 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, does that include Vonkeror? < 1306629037 80025 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are unfamiliar with the proper definition of "doesn't suck" < 1306629044 895389 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there any way to get chrome to stop autocompleting to things to which I don't want it to autocomplete < 1306629045 369720 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a far more stringent requirement than you appear to realise. < 1306629049 843071 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: yes, install an ai < 1306629055 138536 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Yes. Vonkeror just sucks somewhat less. < 1306629056 947403 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Name to me a web browser with a UI that doesn't make me want to stab things. < 1306629057 181409 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean even manually < 1306629063 167696 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aside from Midori. < 1306629070 248571 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :autocomplete-blacklisting addresses < 1306629078 892814 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ..I can't. That doesn't really disprove my point that you guys are weird, though. :P < 1306629094 56383 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Okay, sorry, let me specify. < 1306629110 621206 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :One with a UI that does not act non-natively. < 1306629132 374426 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what does native mean < 1306629145 575338 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: You get to find me an xf86-input-multitouch package for Debian. < 1306629160 414575 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait it's in Debian < 1306629160 588717 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Windows it is obvious, in UNIX it is not clear. < 1306629161 712535 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1306629169 641729 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay them what about... < 1306629174 604732 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :applesmc-dkms???? < 1306629177 736698 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Has widgets that look and act like the widgets in *every other damned program*. < 1306629185 303198 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1306629193 442983 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I guess the Ubuntu package for that would work. < 1306629196 561612 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :As would mbp-nvidia-bl-dkms. < 1306629197 684739 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I hate widgets in every other damned program < 1306629201 799360 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :...Right? Say right. Say yes. < 1306629221 468671 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:kHWnNbJWGWkJ:www.aeai.dk/blog/%3Fp%3D209+applesmc-dkms+debian&hl=en&gl=uk&strip=1 < 1306629222 101726 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :too much mouse movement not enough keyboard < 1306629222 613691 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh good. < 1306629252 980253 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's so many *simple, simple* things that, say, Firefox screws up. < 1306629257 617141 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are different widgets sets, I think Xaw is not too bad except for lack of keyboard access, I think this is a good reason to use mouse warping, not any of the other reasons that are commonly used, the common use of mouse pointer moving automatically is stupid things < 1306629268 957857 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Like, what kind of thing? < 1306629278 26902 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance, unlike every other tab bar here, Firefox's tabs do not respond to the scroll wheel. < 1306629291 776973 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's an extension for that :P < 1306629293 14070 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's an extension for that. :3 < 1306629293 753124 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1306629326 762294 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :What operating system are you using? < 1306629340 913971 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And about half of the widgets are quite obviously just custom-drawn by the theme engine, and are quite jarring next to grey-mist. < 1306629352 318124 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Debian wheezy, XFCE4. < 1306629358 888472 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you wheeze all the time bro < 1306629363 213834 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :downright wheeze factor < 1306629363 895783 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :y < 1306629367 624684 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :whactory < 1306629374 574536 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And XFCE4 tab bars use scroll wheel? < 1306629379 725609 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey pikhq should i install testing direct or install stable first and then upgrade before installing x < 1306629385 427150 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: gtk tab bars do < 1306629387 491996 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: That's more a GTK behavior. < 1306629387 738042 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :xfce uses gtk < 1306629396 15248 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :`tetris < 1306629397 748941 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1306629410 960209 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: The typical recommendation is stable->testing, but I usually just install testing directly. < 1306629422 803260 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, but I think Mozilla is not based on GTK as far as I know? Therefore it doesn't. < 1306629429 393782 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: but last i installed testing in virtualbox it did not boot : ( < 1306629443 297330 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, then do stable->testing. < 1306629453 630569 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Mozilla on X11 platforms uses GTK. < 1306629469 353968 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: BUT I AM SCARED < 1306629472 474819 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :MAYBE IT WAS JUST A VIRTUALBOX ISSUE < 1306629512 553704 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: stable->testing not working would be taken about as seriously as testing going out and raping every Debian developer's cat. < 1306629516 360698 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Then I think it ought to make scroll wheel work with tab bars! I agree in that case. < 1306629592 133096 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And as it turns out I also have another question about the Wayland system. Can you use SDL with Wayland windowing? < 1306629622 535363 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if sdl has or gets a wayland backend, then yes. < 1306629640 153263 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: MAYBE IT WAS JUST A VIRTUALBOX ISSUE ;_; < 1306629686 34943 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yeah, but stable->testing should "just work". < 1306629698 295454 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: No reason why you couldn't. < 1306629705 703772 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :This user likes to use redundant userboxes that are redundant. This user likes to use redundant userboxes that are redundant. This user likes to use redundant sentences that are redundant. < 1306629708 172587 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Indeed, it'd probably work better than on X... < 1306629725 455452 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: But that's boooooooooooooooooring. < 1306629735 737059 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :As all its code to get its own framebuffer to Wayland would consist of telling Wayland to blit. < 1306629817 3511 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Then I suppose it would be good for that things. But it also becomes necessary to make SDL to work with Wayland, if it doesn't already have that < 1306629830 561446 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: SHOULD I INSTALL DEBIAN NOW OR LATER >SO >MANY >DILEMMAS < 1306629837 720254 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :also have xfwm fixed the bug yet < 1306629891 260135 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have written a program using SDL (the BytePusher program) and modified a program using SDL (MegaZeux), so I know a few things about SDL. < 1306629896 512757 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1306629909 331985 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I think some people don't like SDL < 1306629936 702744 :augur!~augur@216-164-57-20.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1306629986 518413 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there any portable kind of self modifying code in C programming? < 1306630001 533898 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1306630019 12771 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, actually. < 1306630024 433356 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Link to a C compiler that supports your target. < 1306630027 924988 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make the entire program a quine. < 1306630031 718652 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Modify it. < 1306630093 444979 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose that will work, but it is a hardly useful way to make it, since the purpose for making self modifying code is so that you don't have to do that kind of things < 1306630227 906744 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :What letters should I use for the new needed input states in TeXnicard? The obviously ones are already taken so I need to select nonobviously ones instead; < 1306630625 764769 :iconmaster!~iconmaste@209.150.235.10 QUIT :Quit: Pardon me, but I have to go die in NetHack again. < 1306630707 461921 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want to go die in NetHack again. I want to go dye in NneettHhaacckk again. < 1306631147 770019 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many things will go wrong if Planck's constant is increased by a factor of four? < 1306631301 544255 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :7. < 1306631366 951920 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wbich seven things? < 1306631407 846688 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know < 1306631519 624783 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/Wbich/Which/ Now do you know? < 1306631891 123520 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are they doing terrible things to regex in Perl 6... < 1306632005 636351 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're improving it massively. < 1306632071 880811 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Like what kind of things you mean? < 1306632091 896561 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1306632161 672736 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1306632347 940373 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gaaah, midori crashed. < 1306632375 368152 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :GAHAHAHAHA WHY DOES MY BATTERY NOT LIKE TO CHARGE WHEN THE COMPUTER'S PLUGGED IN < 1306632376 103107 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hugs chrome < 1306632376 985824 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Back to Firefox, and can I pleasepleaseplease beat the Firefox devs over the head? < 1306632406 619661 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: If you can find them, then try. Otherwise, please don't. < 1306632417 10906 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :BROWSER WARS < 1306632418 627473 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :*pew pew pew* < 1306632500 811498 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :APPLICATIONS SHOULD NOT HAVE THEMING ENGINES DAMN YOU PEOPLE < 1306632534 897561 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :* pikhq wonders if oerjan still has that script used to generate stdcons.bfm... < 1306632539 818386 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes i do < 1306632548 688023 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, there's actually some good changes to the regex. < 1306632555 30561 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: answer myyyyyyyyy question < 1306632655 161168 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the minor caveat that the part which turns the wiki page into a large haskell constant was probably done by hand with substitutions in vim, although the format should be clear from the file with the old version < 1306632913 912736 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: what question < 1306632935 562866 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And now I'm trying out Epiphany (GNOME's browser) < 1306632938 716479 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: grep /geom/ < 1306632942 242228 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So far, I am pleasantly surprised. < 1306632953 807191 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok another minor caveat is that the script doesn't actually have a main function, so it may not be entirely clear how to run the functions < 1306632981 833529 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : Phantom_Hoover: Invent me a geometry where I can have the curvature of the Earth because it's pretty, but still have an infinite world in every dimension. < 1306633001 428943 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :this? i'm not sure if that is possible, as a sphere is simply connected. < 1306633025 972050 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :polar co-ordinates have infinite radius and finite angle < 1306633113 511316 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :um that's just an infinite world if you go into _space_ < 1306633120 637260 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :which we essentially have already < 1306633136 176162 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, -every- dimension < 1306633143 746002 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think that's possible then < 1306633178 220620 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can do a torus thing though < 1306633189 879377 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Except it seems to fetch stuff slowly? < 1306633191 833253 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Strange. < 1306633192 32127 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :with varying curvature < 1306633227 179727 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about every non-vertical dimension :P < 1306633240 352919 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually that might have trouble being infinite upwards from the inside ring < 1306633248 399182 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. sphere that is a bunch of stacked planes < 1306633267 232758 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: O_o < 1306633298 340652 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what. < 1306633306 479975 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's minecraft's world :) < 1306633317 694281 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :minecraft is a sphere? < 1306633319 548956 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for the sphere part, < 1306633326 937252 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's your job < 1306633335 162068 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@_@ < 1306633341 787320 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :My battery charging light is BLINKING < 1306633486 353187 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the part about simple connectivity is important, it means there is no way to duplicate points of a sphere such that neigborhoods look locally like the original sphere and the whole thing is connected < 1306633504 314882 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pah < 1306633531 236279 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can always just make it geometrically incoherent, you know < 1306633540 656306 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :while a torus is _not_, so you can duplicate points so going around the circles doesn't return < 1306633571 64874 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well if you drop the poles, you have cylinder which works with east-west duplication < 1306633598 890664 :wareya_!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com NICK :wareya < 1306633638 749480 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh there is also the projective plane, in which you _identify_ antipodes on the sphere to get _less_ points < 1306633643 15739 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1306633660 556082 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i.e. the sphere is a twofold cover of the projective plane) < 1306633712 158061 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i think the klein bottle may work similarly for the torus < 1306633720 37258 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :klein bottle world < 1306633722 42545 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :great < 1306633758 411830 :augur!~augur@216-164-57-20.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: plural quantification! < 1306633778 64661 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although if you can only look around locally (which is probably essential for this, then the main weirdness would be that after a world circumnavigation you'd return as your mirror image :D < 1306633784 482324 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*this) < 1306633803 294502 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: can't circumnavigate an infinite world :P < 1306633811 860771 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah i see < 1306633830 270964 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: um these are twofold covers, and actually _smaller_ than the sphere and torus in a sense < 1306633842 311304 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1306633853 624626 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1306633901 887473 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com QUIT :Quit: MAYBE CARRIER < 1306633985 663231 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the klein bottle it would also depend on which direction you circumnavigated in, one direction would not mirror < 1306634077 352622 :augur!~augur@216-164-57-20.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :cmon guys < 1306634078 706732 :augur!~augur@216-164-57-20.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :plural logic < 1306634082 317361 :augur!~augur@216-164-57-20.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :no russell's paradox < 1306634082 877313 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although geometric incoherence might be nice, all the mathematicians in the world would scratch their heads and wonder why it didn't seem to be finite when it was locally spherical... < 1306634288 998293 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Shuttles are a low cost alternative to traveling." -- Star of America (an airport shuttle line) < 1306634296 926653 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently by using a shuttle, I am avoiding ... traveling. < 1306634318 355138 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has been reading the Perl 6 spec. < 1306634320 763766 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's so... weird. < 1306634326 931351 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it good weird or bad weird < 1306634336 357820 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not entirely sure yet. A lot of it seems good. < 1306634340 167130 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hilarious weird or depressing weird < 1306634345 539757 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither of those. < 1306634369 994554 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's going to be nowhere near as good at golfing. < 1306634371 166585 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl 6 logo is the worst < 1306634379 538904 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :..yeah it's pretty stupid. < 1306634407 414718 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's understandable, and is a pretty good reflection of the aesthetics of the language itself < 1306634429 520947 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think now instead of doing <> you do something like $*IN.lines or something? < 1306634438 5604 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf < 1306634458 285370 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah they've added more OO, but it's apparently optional. < 1306634462 32956 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :very readable < 1306634477 107848 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: removing one of the most useful features? < 1306634505 654577 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean i've probably used <> in every perl program i've written < 1306634514 144843 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use it quite often, yes. < 1306634520 930284 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only use perl for the <> < 1306634525 571876 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha. < 1306634547 643057 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only use visual basic for the <> < 1306634560 355952 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only use Python for the <>, and everyone hates me. < 1306634567 865450 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get yelled at in #python < 1306634573 383036 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1306634583 839091 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, i keep forgetting python has it < 1306634597 445934 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might even be gone now. < 1306634621 463292 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: wait that wasn't a joke (entirely)? < 1306634637 969236 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :waht < 1306634655 398485 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*CakeProphet: too < 1306634663 227733 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but hey, you can give blocks parameters now. it looks weird as hell. my $block = -> $x {print $x;} < 1306634724 817551 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just lambda expressions, i guess < 1306634738 113019 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1306634759 888451 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then there's also: for @list -> $x,$y,$z { ... } < 1306634774 28612 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and for @list <-> $x,$y,$z { ... } < 1306634778 607058 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl is the worst < 1306634794 541973 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the <-> meaning if you modify the variables then you modify the array in-place. < 1306634893 380038 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and hey, you can define prefix, postfix, infix, and circumfix operators. < 1306634896 310702 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :does that take a list of 3-tuples, or a list which is divided into chunks of 3 ? < 1306634903 466114 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :latter < 1306634933 29846 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :circumfix? < 1306634940 961184 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :<<<>>> < 1306634942 113989 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the former could be seen as just a for with higher order arguments < 1306634967 26969 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(heck haskell has forM which does that) < 1306635067 849368 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm i guess in a language where you can usefully check how many arguments a function takes, the latter could be defined too < 1306635067 970792 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl doesn't really have tuples. So instead of passing around a "list of tuples" you'd just pass around lists that will later be broken up into n chunks. < 1306635080 355922 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1306635088 599750 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :@#_ :) < 1306635088 671710 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you meant: . ? @ bf do ft id pl rc v wn < 1306635102 841278 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :er actually $#_ < 1306635103 148626 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1306635113 744102 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :...in Perl 5, is the your number of arguments. < 1306635140 327671 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: um in this case you need the _caller_ to know the function's number of arguments < 1306635147 426932 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1306635158 120680 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you wanted for to be able to be defined < 1306635190 918720 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyways, be back later. Must party. < 1306635212 855913 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :communist! < 1306635231 565640 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah, Perl 6 is ridiculously syntax-heavy. More so than Perl 5. < 1306635250 98447 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl sounds like the big tent approach to programming < 1306635298 773989 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's actually the retarded monkey approach to programming < 1306635316 123619 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :lmao < 1306635346 695907 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl 6, the language that broke the camel's back < 1306635355 968350 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1306635492 378374 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1306635492 510457 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://hbfs.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/perl6book-parody.jpg < 1306635526 13942 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1306635869 68809 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why am I so scared of writing Javascript code? < 1306635878 159798 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just because I'm still only passingly familiar with it? < 1306635899 108143 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :because javascript code reminds you of moths < 1306636119 688898 :SingingBoyo!~singingbo@d154-5-186-187.bchsia.telus.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1306636148 857728 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION readies the earplugs < 1306637143 22542 :augur!~augur@216-164-57-20.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1306637293 796272 :augur!~augur@216-164-57-20.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1306637381 565717 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :My phone is pretty epically borked. :/ < 1306637426 850343 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The *bootloader*, inexplicably, won't work unless I handhold it. < 1306637441 369980 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :*wince* < 1306637532 685596 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :For reasons unbeknowest to me, it will not boot unless I actually log in via the hardware debugging console and tell it to load Linux. < 1306637542 421053 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It boots *perfectly* fine after that, however. < 1306638134 475527 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: What phone? < 1306638155 113947 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : it's going to be nowhere near as good at golfing. < 1306638171 788376 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh, it has lots of higher-order features and new operators to counteract some very slightly heavier syntax elsewhere. < 1306638175 418174 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Palm Pixi. < 1306638201 29681 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: That's what you get for being a WebOS phone. That's what you get for buying the cheaper WebOS phone. < 1306638219 669017 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I "bought" it for $0.00. < 1306638222 453554 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seriously, webOS phones are the worst abomination ever to hit the market. :p < 1306638226 494582 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Money's worth :P < 1306638248 923781 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Yeeaaaah*, I get the impression. < 1306638277 186738 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. For the *immediate* future, I suppose I can manually boot it. < 1306638309 828957 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And when calling AT&T about the warranty, just neglect to mention that it is technically possible to boot it. < 1306638334 281745 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Palm got bought out by HP which is a great match because HP specialises in selling products nobody really wants to buy. < 1306638456 429428 :SingingBoyo!~singingbo@d154-5-186-187.bchsia.telus.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If anyone can figure out what this does, then you[re a genius. Sort of a funge, but... I wrote my own interpreter, so I can do some interesting things. http://pastebin.com/x0b14EXS < 1306638509 121440 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :SingingBoyo: Um, just a guess, but HQ9+? < 1306638517 316793 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Befunge-93 right? < 1306638523 214688 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not -98? < 1306638533 928272 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume [] and ()-enclosed things are some language extension. < 1306638541 517602 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: No 99 bottles. < 1306638543 683680 :SingingBoyo!~singingbo@d154-5-186-187.bchsia.telus.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In some ways. I added procedures to my interpreter. which are those brackets, yes < 1306638548 291984 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, dur. < 1306638551 950986 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not procedures, instructions. < 1306638557 850654 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly, I suck! < 1306638564 148945 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what you've really done is make a variant of the language with only one interpreter :P < 1306638583 908465 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess (cycle) and (End) are some kind of loop. Or, wait, no, you seem to define it. < 1306638602 351919 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does [] define and () use somehow? < 1306638614 356229 :SingingBoyo!~singingbo@d154-5-186-187.bchsia.telus.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1306638677 657939 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it print out hello world and distort it each time? < 1306638736 20157 :SingingBoyo!~singingbo@d154-5-186-187.bchsia.telus.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :not quite. Though that could be fun to do too... anyway, your close, but there's no distortion, it just prints multiple times. < 1306638780 972044 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1306638886 159165 :SingingBoyo!~singingbo@d154-5-186-187.bchsia.telus.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, in the end it's just 5 Hello World! messages, each followed by a newline, and the a Bye! with its own newline < 1306638897 263058 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1306638934 767689 :SingingBoyo!~singingbo@d154-5-186-187.bchsia.telus.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to try that distortion thing. this should be interesting... < 1306639413 994204 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :undefined :: (Sub (I Z) (I Z) r) => r < 1306639414 253239 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : :: (SubHelperThatIsRealHelperHelper b (O Z) r, Equals Z b1 b) => r < 1306639418 590010 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: haskell's type system sure is fun to program in < 1306639495 668260 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf, swapping the arguments fixes it < 1306639525 684566 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1306639526 108390 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :DUH < 1306639559 190071 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok now i just need to rename those later < 1306639647 490135 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> :t undefined :: (DivLoop T5 T5 qt rm) => (qt,rm) < 1306639647 562018 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :undefined :: (DivLoop T5 T5 qt rm) => (qt,rm) :: (I Z, Z) < 1306639649 114081 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :YESSSSSSSSSSS < 1306639660 156205 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't mind me SingingBoyo, i'm just writing programs in the haskell type system. < 1306639739 352297 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh good, i still have bugs < 1306639823 696527 :SingingBoyo!~singingbo@d154-5-186-187.bchsia.telus.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1306639897 372150 :SingingBoyo!~singingbo@d154-5-186-187.bchsia.telus.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm making no progress... I feel like I need to use some sort of array-like storage, which is a pain in funges... < 1306640012 30104 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :RealSubHelperHelper is broken :( < 1306640024 434457 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, duh < 1306640036 289191 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :undefined :: (DivLoop T100 T5 qt rm) => (qt,rm) < 1306640036 463876 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : :: (O (O (I (O (I Z)))), Z) < 1306640037 916735 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :woot < 1306640040 452813 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1306640043 124313 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :divmod works < 1306640252 924568 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1306640412 710860 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sigh* < 1306640430 623323 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This phone was shitty as hell. < 1306640460 469719 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1306640470 996148 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :All these years and the iPhone is still the only phone that is actually tolerable to use, despite being run with utterly reprehensible policies. < 1306640480 213917 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even Android falls down on the simplest things. < 1306640483 54060 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :#firstworldproblems < 1306640484 38044 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's ridiuclous. < 1306640491 601494 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: Shaddap :p < 1306640503 153053 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Children starving in Africa doesn't negate all other woes, even really minor ones like these. < 1306640503 428358 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Android at least seems to be in the ballpark. < 1306640516 361247 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In line to get seating, perhaps, but hey. < 1306640540 82035 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :WebOS, on the other hand, seems to be struggling to figure out where its shoes go, and will not make it to the ballpark at all. < 1306640610 430533 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : RealSubHelper Nothing (Just r'), < 1306640613 978543 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :um no why are you wanting that...... < 1306640630 658721 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyways, this seems to actually be spontaneous *hardware* failure. < 1306640650 136252 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Capitalise that A aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah < 1306640728 108184 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to detect Elliott freaking out. < 1306640734 808430 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: AOJKDSNFDSJLKGFIOGKDHKDKFHJF < 1306640736 268213 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :DFKJHDFLGVDJLGKHFDBKGHLFGGFH < 1306641496 520044 :SingingBoyo!~singingbo@d154-5-186-187.bchsia.telus.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I now understand why high-level languages were created... < 1306641522 398370 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :SingingBoyo: So they can have primitive yet Turing-complete type systems? < 1306641523 622106 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I agree. < 1306641539 717195 :SingingBoyo!~singingbo@d154-5-186-187.bchsia.telus.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1306641765 734546 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHY IS THIS NOT WORKING SUBTRACTION WORKS PERFECTLY DIVISION WORKS PERFECTLY < 1306641769 399224 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you have against me computer ;_; < 1306641864 933753 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it thinks you are meddling with types Man Was Not Meant to Know < 1306641986 966347 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you have a paste? < 1306642011 809575 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's way too hideously complex and long-winded at this point for me to not be horribly embarrassed by it, i honestly have a SubHelperThatIsRealHelperHelper typeclass < 1306642016 918376 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe if i can't solve this i'll change my mind :P < 1306642049 843264 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the helper naming scheme does sound to have got out of hand < 1306642051 600856 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(RealSubHelper/Helper was taken, so I used SubHelperThatIsReal/SubHelperThatIsRealHelper/SubHelperThatIsRealHelperHelper) < 1306642070 650286 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: well every "case (f ..., g ..., ...) of" needs one, so yeah < 1306642212 325223 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ive figured it out... < 1306642215 727177 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the computer wants me to cry... < 1306642219 131691 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1306642243 69957 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :/cry < 1306642251 61447 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :might just sleep on this one < 1306642416 907292 :SingingBoyo!~singingbo@d154-5-186-187.bchsia.telus.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my... I have to go back to printer every character my interpreter sees < 1306642419 47085 :SingingBoyo!~singingbo@d154-5-186-187.bchsia.telus.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1306643053 393150 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: im gonna put this on my resume < 1306643059 613860 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :top haskell typeclass candidate erry time < 1306643090 810372 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 . < 1306643099 583980 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :rip patashu killed by haskell type system < 1306643105 336878 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :will be buried in mass hindley-milner grave < 1306643130 326833 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell wanted by ICC < 1306643346 301090 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so its half past five < 1306643347 877539 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan < 1306643349 422470 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be < 1306643356 897941 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :remarkably sensible for me to go to bed and sleep on this problem right now < 1306643368 509548 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :please give me a way to make it a totally irrational and stupid decision, so that i can do it < 1306643385 761716 :SingingBoyo!~singingbo@d154-5-186-187.bchsia.telus.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1306643398 814653 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :SingingBoyo: i have decided this is how my brain works with regard to sleeping < 1306643405 440495 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it maps out all the possibilities, weighs up all the pros and cons < 1306643407 459346 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and picks the stupidest option < 1306643410 799116 :SingingBoyo!~singingbo@d154-5-186-187.bchsia.telus.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1306643432 404298 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable QUIT :Quit: /dev/io failed < 1306643439 650183 :SingingBoyo!~singingbo@d154-5-186-187.bchsia.telus.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still young enough that it figures that staying awake until everything shuts down is a good thing. < 1306643501 159258 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but it takes me like twenty hours to shut down, and the shutting down manifests as completely breaking and sleeping for like sixteen hours < 1306643505 864918 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1306643515 157175 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1306643552 400805 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : oerjan < 1306643552 473880 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : it would be < 1306643552 474051 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : remarkably sensible for me to go to bed and sleep on this problem right now < 1306643552 474152 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : please give me a way to make it a totally irrational and stupid decision, so that i can do it < 1306643553 764670 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: quite urgent < 1306643570 989646 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :should i do a headstand in glass of water and try and sleep in that < 1306643593 673661 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :only if you put it on youtube. < 1306643594 23680 :SingingBoyo!~singingbo@d154-5-186-187.bchsia.telus.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :joy. my interpreter is giving me segfaults < 1306643605 725978 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ok < 1306643606 922838 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cya < 1306643876 162193 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1306644691 956181 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-168-82.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1306644698 542737 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1306644947 360429 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1306645223 130929 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Isolated showers" bullshit. < 1306645259 136707 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uberpsycho hail, sure, but not isolated shows. < 1306645262 564353 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Showers, even. < 1306645756 562229 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :this hail show brought to you by ... < 1306645816 977745 :SingingBoyo!~singingbo@d154-5-186-187.bchsia.telus.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :geico? :P < 1306645858 485474 :SingingBoyo!~singingbo@d154-5-186-187.bchsia.telus.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1306646180 73169 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm going to compile into an interpreter. < 1306646190 685970 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The sad thing is, I think I have to do this to _save_ memory < 1306646978 626542 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Need to do more tests, but now I'm certain < 1306647062 92292 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1306647070 577422 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1306647099 492157 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the second time the broadband briefly disappeared this morning... < 1306647267 144428 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. I wonder if the BIOS update increased my network connection's stability. < 1306647326 198422 :augur!~augur@216-164-57-20.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1306647372 30216 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well it wasn't as bad as earlier this week, when most of norway lost internet and phone connection < 1306647411 31760 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ouch. < 1306647416 825424 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a tree fell over one cable and someone dug through another for the main alternate route simultaneously) < 1306647514 471021 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the whole phone network got unstable even locally < 1306648877 418976 :ralc!~ralc@79.142.230.243.static.knet.bolignet.dk QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1306651868 958742 :CakeProphet!~adam@h177.62.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1306651869 31945 :CakeProphet!~adam@h177.62.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net QUIT :Changing host < 1306651869 32096 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1306652010 751640 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :man why does Java suck so much. < 1306652083 368751 :augur!~augur@208.58.6.161 JOIN :#esoteric < 1306652402 177177 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The people who made it despised all humanity. < 1306652530 241311 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: I've been in the same room as Gosling without knowing who he was, but no one in the room at the time gave the appearance of hating humanity < 1306652565 310312 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey here's an article about Bing failing: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13506_3-20064284-17.html < 1306652637 617746 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol he doesn't pay any attention to Google at all obviously < 1306652896 69759 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :or understand how to make search popular < 1306652922 803772 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah like, what people like on Facebook and what they search for have nothing to do with each other < 1306652975 928124 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :more importantly, the fact that the ability to do something akin to Facebook's like on search requires a fundamental property: < 1306652978 37881 :augur!~augur@208.58.6.161 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1306652980 124895 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :that your search finds what you want < 1306653040 757732 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: In order to most efficiently hate humanity, one must give the appearance of adoring humanity. < 1306653062 892030 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of using a "+1" feature, Google should just keep statistics on how many people click on a link after typing in a certain query. They may already do this.. < 1306653067 357706 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In this way, you can better bring about the downfall of humanity, while it is convinced you're worshipping it. < 1306653165 791000 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: no comment < 1306653351 95935 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: also your country sucks at formatting dates < 1306653504 975198 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Which is why I use ISO date formats. < 1306653521 109536 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance, it is now 2011-05-29T01:18. < 1306653531 656113 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do as well < 1306653554 211286 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I use 24 hour time and vastly prefer metric units. < 1306653584 735465 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though the preference for metric units is probably courtesy of having had a physics class, and being horrified at the prospect of doing it without. :P < 1306653593 105587 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is 2011-05-29T00:19-07:00 < 1306653632 648674 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my opinion the one confusing thing about ISO time is the sign flip to get to UTC < 1306653641 208291 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to /add/ seven hours to get URC < 1306653643 164804 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :*UTC < 1306653648 738168 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :from -0700 < 1306653667 909680 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The idea is that you subtract 7 hours *from UTC* to get the time zone. < 1306653705 916092 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but it makes going back to UTC from the time require an extra step < 1306653711 935039 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, yeah... < 1306653730 683655 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly, we should just use UTC as The Time Zone. < 1306653929 686501 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1306653944 82872 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(actually no, that would be bad. time zones are sane) < 1306653952 884312 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's what I do: 3:26 AM EDT < 1306653956 843349 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :crazy right? < 1306653963 178714 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1306653973 174101 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :half the US population doesn't know what EDT is < 1306653976 733980 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Time zones *can* be sane. < 1306653979 353251 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :another quarter thinks it's the same as EST < 1306653988 579778 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: sorry; the concept of time zones is sane < 1306654013 744195 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Agreed. It's nice to have a notion of time that corresponds to local solar time. < 1306654024 3130 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :when such a thing exists < 1306654026 57782 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :*coughchina* < 1306654028 245727 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The issue is that time zones are often way the hell *off* of local solar time. < 1306654039 771906 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*coughchina* < 1306654066 797772 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :China Standard Time: because one time suffices for the people from the UTC+5 to the UTC+9 meridian! < 1306654068 261553 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other issue is that for whatever cultural reason, noon is not midday < 1306654069 664 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :my time zone is more sexy than yours. < 1306654085 882220 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :or typically even close < 1306654099 909843 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Noon is not midday in large part because the time zones don't correspond to local solar time. < 1306654110 368951 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :noon is usually the start of my day. < 1306654122 910258 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seriously, very *few* parts of the US are within half an hour of the meridian for their time zone. < 1306654164 876634 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.35 JOIN :#esoteric < 1306654173 585993 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is in one of the exceptions... < 1306654186 910456 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you take 1pm to be midday, though, it gets better < 1306654220 860738 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: the world is going to end if we don't have times consistent with our solar time. < 1306654237 614243 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :UTC-6 spreads way, way too far west. < 1306654244 588177 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :All the way over to the UTC-7 meridian. < 1306654281 945656 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and *past*, near the midpoint between UTC-7 and UTC-8, for Canadian UTC-6) < 1306654309 87498 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :UTC-7 does worse in Canada < 1306654329 394269 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, up north it contains the UTC-9 through UTC-6 meridians. < 1306654356 369330 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least we aren't China... < 1306654369 397169 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And US UTC-9 only *barely* contains its own meridian. < 1306654448 983324 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1306654610 609308 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, Newfoundland is URC-3.5 < 1306654614 23668 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :*UTC < 1306654695 76236 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow. There is a time zone border of UTC+8 and UTC+4:30. < 1306654698 590796 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because of China. < 1306654755 697117 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's okay, you can't cross that border < 1306654771 529004 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: my dish soap says "40% MORE*" < 1306654785 363289 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Yup, gotta love it. < 1306654785 573482 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :h8 your country, etc. < 1306654796 571508 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :*than competitors' 24oz < 1306654798 671481 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the US has pretty sane time zone divisions actually. < 1306654802 286922 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :compared to the rest of the world. < 1306654802 397809 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"40% MORE*" * than 24oz. < 1306654808 319441 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: *Relatively*, yes. < 1306654818 900521 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: It's still consistently far too west. < 1306654845 986632 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should not be exceptional for my time zone to actually be a good approximation of mean solar time. < 1306654859 67313 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(modulo daylight savings time, which is stupid) < 1306654922 385237 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :honestly as long as it's standardized, I think it matters much. < 1306654924 172707 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: don't forget the date line < 1306654933 604024 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, sorry < 1306654935 860216 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :date polygon < 1306654967 719101 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, you know where the time zones are the absolute worst? < 1306655008 383244 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where? < 1306655011 208000 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :antarctica < 1306655014 257002 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :they aren't even monotonic < 1306655029 943491 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh, there's other issues there. < 1306655030 289585 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :since every station typically uses time of wherever they most frequently get supplied from < 1306655039 676836 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow once you get to the date line the time zones make absolutely no sense. < 1306655040 896700 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't really have a meaningful mean solar time there. < 1306655052 343337 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you want a year-long day. :P < 1306655056 422480 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is true < 1306655069 51543 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :+13 overlaps with -11 laterally at some points. < 1306655086 67150 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if they have midnight parties on the solsitce < 1306655089 242944 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :*solstice < 1306655092 468942 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: UTC+12 and UTC-10 border each other. < 1306655207 51786 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: Look at UTC+11 in Russia < 1306655208 977802 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol what... +14? < 1306655279 366547 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, UTC+14 is a real thing. < 1306655301 549283 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :+14 is medial with Hawaii and Alaska, which are -10 and -9 < 1306655335 884536 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :also good is Australia's time zones < 1306655335 982087 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: It's... over at UTC+9. Wow. < 1306655363 679704 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :They have UTC+8, UTC+9:30, and UTC+10 all in a row < 1306655401 816020 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :they'd actually be pretty close if they made 9:30 9:00 < 1306655476 617281 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also a de facto UTC+8:45 in there. < 1306655580 671926 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so apparently Kiribati changed their time zone from -11 and -10 to +13 +14 < 1306655586 18968 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :for reasons Wikipedia doesnt explain... < 1306655630 665384 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :From 29 December 2011, Samoa will advance its daylight savings time from UTC-10 to UTC+14 (and its standard time from UTC-11 to UTC+13), essentially moving the international date line to the other side of the country. < 1306655634 637196 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :....why < 1306655701 442574 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :trade with western nations usually < 1306655713 217183 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :do they just want to be cool and be the first ones to experience a given time? < 1306655721 430138 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that western nations are east of eastern ones < 1306655732 8651 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait they're moving back a day < 1306655736 612467 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1306655739 424070 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1306655743 252795 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, that's forwards < 1306655754 571910 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that would be trade with eastern nations I guess? < 1306655763 710608 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1306655775 756151 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which are westwards) < 1306655780 782761 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :right. < 1306655813 776253 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :relative to Samoa, but not in terms of arbitrary absolute eastern and western. < 1306655836 284190 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :trade is definitely easier to coordinate when you aren't shipping packages the day before they arrive < 1306655924 310638 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :As a British colony, Kiribati was centered in the Gilbert Islands, just west of the old date line. Upon independence in 1979, the new republic acquired the Phoenix and Line Islands from the United States and the country found itself straddling the date line. Government offices on opposite sides of the line could only communicate by radio or telephone on the four days of the week when both sides experienced weekdays simul < 1306655930 374218 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find this hilarious. < 1306655941 748106 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1306656621 445258 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooray for air travel at miserable times of the night. < 1306656938 249105 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1306657407 478108 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: hello < 1306657507 589739 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1306657814 909326 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1306658373 726783 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, how did I keep connection during the night? Wasn't the laptop in s2ram??? < 1306658395 424891 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that must have failed somehow, since scrollback indicates I'm well and fully connected < 1306658427 425460 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or I still haven't woken up, and I'm dreaming this, but somehow that seems unlikely, too detailed and so on) < 1306659024 503502 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :where are you < 1306659028 136127 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll come by and pinch you just to make sure < 1306659075 718076 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu, Europe < 1306659086 889616 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, darn < 1306659092 174812 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to book tickets in advance for that < 1306659098 454884 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should have warned me you were going to be dreaming :( < 1306659112 458318 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure if the ash cloud is still there < 1306659128 552186 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION checks the SWC < 1306659169 910225 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmm nope, if LFV says it is gone, then it is gone < 1306659183 11678 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(LFV is the Swedish equiv of FAA) < 1306660073 614848 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :luftfartsverket < 1306660077 492564 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :notice the "fart" < 1306660081 34087 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol@sweden < 1306660161 619299 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zwaarddijk, what? luftfart = air traffic < 1306660190 665815 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a tetris addiction now. < 1306660196 864498 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: obviously I now this < 1306660204 377994 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: do you think most non-swedophones know though? < 1306660212 323913 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, they don't, so it's cheap humour at your expense < 1306660245 588424 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm interesting, fart means traffic in many different concatenated words, but sv:fart = en:speed (as in, velocity) < 1306660265 352202 :myndzi!~myndzi@c-98-247-234-176.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1306660281 474852 :retaehc!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-29-100.vodafone-net.de NICK :cheater__ < 1306660293 318741 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess sv:fart in the meaning of traffic is somewhat archaic and thus only exists in concatenations < 1306660301 732887 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fart is rather likely derived from "fara" (not 'danger', but 'to go (by sled or other implement') < 1306660305 453507 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is sjöfart too, meaning sea traffic < 1306660313 144378 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zwaarddijk, hm good point < 1306660332 16473 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :my guess is they're not even just identical, they're originally the same word < 1306660343 777469 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes likely it comes from there < 1306660345 824398 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :something meaning something a bit like "travelling, travelness" < 1306660374 556050 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :travelness heh < 1306660377 703602 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :then one of the meaningings (travelness) easily can be taken to refer to speed < 1306660380 69551 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :or veloctiy < 1306660389 677795 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite probably < 1306660392 826889 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the other to travelling in general < 1306660398 68608 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1306660435 397901 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zwaarddijk, this makes me wonder where fara (danger) comes from though < 1306660503 793723 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :lemme check < 1306660563 848512 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :borrowed from german < 1306660567 249550 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1306660579 409620 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :cognate to English fear < 1306660601 493527 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1306660629 574733 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's also scandinavian cognates, like icelandic far (anger, enmity) < 1306660710 688048 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that has to go back quite a while I guess < 1306660724 97347 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Iceland has been rather isolated iirc < 1306660984 477954 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's also quite some time since early middle high german < 1306661001 384432 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :all of these, btw, can be traced to proto-indo-european, which is even further back < 1306661007 825022 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, greek has a cognate to it as well < 1306661020 448009 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :peria (but that has had its meaning diverge even more) < 1306661037 505828 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1306661055 289754 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of course the germanic word lso has had divergences) < 1306661061 28218 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :*also < 1306661306 395496 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :some programming language should have a ..)-thingy hich means "fill out all missing parentheses at this place" < 1306661342 589309 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and maybe a ..)[-N] (N = integer or variable), which means "leave out N missing parentheses" < 1306661374 537552 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zwaarddijk, how would it tell how many were missing < 1306661387 772298 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zwaarddijk, would it close to top level? For Lisp that would be less than useful < 1306661409 651795 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally it'd close to top level, that's why I included the [-N] notation < 1306661424 273669 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1306661441 71402 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zwaarddijk, did you say variable? < 1306661450 707351 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1306661460 376999 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zwaarddijk, I think that would mean you just made parsing require executing :P < 1306661468 445093 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep. < 1306661473 38897 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1306661481 597837 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means parsing is undecidable < 1306661487 808234 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's only possible in an interpreted langue, I guess < 1306661495 891630 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zwaarddijk, yes quite < 1306661514 337008 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously < 1306661516 334286 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zwaarddijk, and I would say it is undesirable even in an interpreted language < 1306661526 86164 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously it's undesirable < 1306661531 726953 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes spaghetti code worse < 1306661562 735404 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zwaarddijk, so why did you suggest it? :D < 1306661568 835728 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhm < 1306661581 483147 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :this channel is about estoteric programming langs, is it not < 1306661586 451913 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh good point < 1306661606 704387 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :where undesireable features are used for all the mileage they can offer < 1306661629 17959 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zwaarddijk, yes, now make a language which depends on variables in such a syntax to be TC :P < 1306661645 64084 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :go for it < 1306661655 425394 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will. < 1306661660 578572 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :go for it, that is. < 1306661666 375092 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh? < 1306661669 806837 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not make it < 1306661674 297405 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zwaarddijk, oh? < 1306661680 711879 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :now you confused me < 1306661712 890854 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, when I said "I will" I didn't promise that I will successfully make such a language, but I promised i will go for it < 1306661744 91481 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1306661911 112954 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :all of my programming languages support non-structured data. < 1306661975 214569 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1306661981 330485 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2260&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+smbc-comics%2FPvLb+%28Saturday+Morning+Breakfast+Cereal+%28updated+daily%29%29 < 1306661996 296076 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I can actually get surprised by trivia any more. < 1306662068 785745 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-11-56.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1306662948 288511 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I think that idea would fit well in with my other stupid recent ieas, like "generalized loops" and stuff < 1306663030 559803 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-194-180.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1306663037 970975 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-223-7.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1306663050 124246 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zwaarddijk, hm what are those? < 1306663134 386909 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :a temporary name for loops that can generate subloops depending on the objects they act on, and the notation used to refer to parts of those objects < 1306663162 646241 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :some better name probably could exist < 1306663191 183885 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so like, a way of generating nested loops < 1306663467 817581 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1306663541 697648 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-61-52.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1306663541 808499 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-61-52.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host < 1306663541 808566 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1306665031 336123 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"[06:41:58] All these years and the iPhone is still the only phone that is actually tolerable to use, despite being run with utterly reprehensible policies." <<< my nokia is far better than iphone < 1306665057 29973 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can call, send an sms and play snake 2 < 1306665132 365552 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the battery lasts for weeks < 1306665207 111250 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i can drop it all i like < 1306665236 120336 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :snake 2??? < 1306665244 586311 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :gaming nirvana right there < 1306665255 540026 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reminds me of the best reason to have an old, cheap phone: you can say "ah, but I can do something with it your iPhone can't" and then dropkick it. < 1306665352 44181 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.35 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1306665373 571796 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem I have with things like the iphone is that it's essentially market dominance. you simply -can't- do as well with a new smartphone as the iphone as it won't ever have as many apps as it. everyone who's generating content for it is just cementing its place there < 1306665407 303651 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :another reason is you can do everything you'd possibly ever want to do with any phone ever invented, except perhaps the first two that didn't have the time < 1306665797 9593 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :My Nexus One doesn't seem to get damaged by all the drops... < 1306665807 109386 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then again, lately it can barely hold an Internet connection < 1306665831 610680 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah well buy a fucking laptop < 1306665859 710194 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm typing on it right now < 1306665879 838586 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure sure i'm just being hardcore iphones and shit suck dude < 1306665883 671118 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, weird that you say that right after I finish listening to Tim Minchin's Pope Song < 1306665887 508917 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's raining soooooooo hard < 1306665893 722035 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should probably go outside < 1306666032 481971 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-194-180.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1306666038 643401 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-133.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1306666069 830901 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I have a phone in theory. < 1306666080 563021 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a relatively old Motorola. < 1306666109 401457 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mostly use mine so i know what time it is < 1306666123 722633 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just have a watch. < 1306666124 203594 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :although lately i don't really care what time it is < 1306666129 624818 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i could never have a watch < 1306666146 271498 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you not have a left wrist? < 1306666155 213840 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do, but i could never constrain it < 1306666165 826004 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.35 JOIN :#esoteric < 1306666216 592560 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't like carrying stuff in my pockets either so really i'd just prefer being naked and carrying whatever i need in my hands < 1306666279 130114 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :My jacket has 37 pockets! < 1306666290 471227 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't like jackets < 1306666294 190083 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are not t-shirts < 1306666303 973443 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :A powerful observation. < 1306666305 863684 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, personally I find that watches itch against the skin. So I use my phone for getting approximative chronometric measurements. < 1306666341 677849 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y'know, a human being would say "checking the time" < 1306666373 798822 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn, revealed < 1306666382 518873 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :there goes my plan for taking over the world < 1306666390 524460 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And they wouldn't try to make themselves sound smart by saying 'approximative' when 'approximate' would do. < 1306666451 815084 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, come on, what is wrong with 'approximative'? < 1306666464 640635 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why the 'ive'? < 1306666477 767620 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, why not. It is a perfectly valid word. < 1306666485 425841 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just makes the word longer for no good reason. < 1306666500 728497 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, why is that an issue < 1306666522 724808 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a perfectly cromulative word < 1306666528 326724 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :*cromulant < 1306666531 742520 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1306666533 107651 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, :D < 1306666537 104256 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh yeah :P < 1306666538 833100 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION fail < 1306666544 433862 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, fail indeed < 1306666548 125334 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, it's 'cromulent' anyway. < 1306666551 269932 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1306666555 313974 :eremitah`off!~mao@189.30.208.153 JOIN :#esoteric < 1306666570 946981 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe they cancel out < 1306666595 189988 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, using overly complicated wording can be fun, though not especially useful < 1306666638 348133 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay i can't concentrate with all that sexy dribbling -> < 1306667067 564213 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd be neat if finnish had a cromulative suffix for making any word cromulent < 1306667101 137094 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, hehe < 1306667244 951243 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I'd like to say cromulative *case* there, but don't cases only apply to nouns? (it'd be unfortunate if cromulation could only be done to nouns...) < 1306667368 296310 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wooooooooooo < 1306667371 687946 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who loves AIRPORTS? < 1306667382 40620 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's hear the love for airports! < 1306667471 908378 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :love them? I don't even like them :/ < 1306667520 450014 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Nouns have cases, while verbs have tenses, voices, moods and whatnot; I think "forms" is a generic word for both. < 1306667527 623470 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm learning to ... be far too used to them *sigh* < 1306667556 11241 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :except one small thing I like about the local airport here: when I was trying to find out how early I'd need to check in, their web site says "please remember to check in before the departure time of your flight" < 1306667562 90423 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also you ugly americans seem to have a rather sucky railways compared to, say, Europe. (Not to mention something like Japan.) < 1306667568 76268 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it's within walking distance < 1306667632 142042 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Like our Internet, we suffer from got-it-first syndrome. < 1306667652 548324 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :We built it first, so ours is the oldest and shittiest. < 1306667675 152784 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In 1804, using high-pressure steam, Richard Trevithick demonstrated the first locomotive-hauled train in Merthyr Tydfil, United Kingdom." < 1306667689 863737 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love airports < 1306667695 506131 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, because building the locomotive engine is totally the same as building a national sequence of railroads X_X < 1306667705 153345 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[In 1830, the first intercity railway, the Liverpool and Manchester Railway, opened.]] < 1306667739 198729 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did the whole Finnair "check in online up to 36 hours before departure, print out the boarding pass, then just drop your bags on the baggage drop desk" thing for my Prague-Helsinki flight yesterday, then I couldn't find a baggage drop desk at the airport at all, so ended up queueing for almost an hour for the Finnair check-in desks (two). < 1306667780 449687 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well isn't queueing a pretty magical experience tho < 1306667857 57110 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, the UK seems to have done the whole national railway network first. < 1306667881 258150 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :you rarely get to be part of a data structure, and being in a stack gets pretty uncomfortable with that many people < 1306667892 400442 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, XD < 1306667918 644028 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, ever tried being in a self-balacing b-tree? < 1306667955 286301 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i ended up helping it balance us and got kicked out < 1306668007 85240 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :never agree to help out inside a bloom filter < 1306668010 294962 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :those things are so nasty and unreliable < 1306668025 634418 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu, very true < 1306668076 79502 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :bloom filter = you can ask if someone already hashed to the same value your object hashes to? < 1306668076 789989 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1306668090 809527 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :a boolean array that is < 1306668093 384072 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :bloom filter is where you hash each incoming element and OR it onto a bitfield < 1306668103 29448 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1306668103 296250 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can get false positives < 1306668112 216331 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so even worse i guess but doesn't use much space < 1306668114 941677 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's probably a decent fetch modus reference here but I can't think of one. < 1306668122 295894 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's constant in space and time but probabilistic < 1306668138 643536 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's actually rather ingenious < 1306668149 704592 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Making an efficient switch/case constr.. n/m < 1306668153 1294 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bloom filter modus would be too much like dave's hash modus I think < 1306668154 395100 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :except murkier < 1306668184 973084 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c4/Bloom_filter_speed.svg/360px-Bloom_filter_speed.svg.png example use < 1306668197 418558 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linked list fetch modus. < 1306668219 673926 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, I suggest using a bloom filter fetch modus, that would be hilarious < 1306668233 570595 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, turns out bloom filters are popular http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloom_filter#Examples < 1306668236 936553 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a fetch modus? < 1306668263 431594 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, homestuck thing (weird webcomic) < 1306668268 450184 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Homestuck, the normal inventory system was replaced by ones with quirky rules < 1306668278 799258 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first fetch modus you were introduced to was I believe the stack modus < 1306668284 305021 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could put stuff in but only take out the most recent addition < 1306668296 132519 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :which lead to Wacky Hijinks < 1306668311 138854 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: "You wonder if you can just... Just sort of reach over... And... Gamzee: Answer troll." < 1306668316 226054 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, there was queue, hash array, tree and a few more iirc < 1306668322 901088 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmkay < 1306668337 506398 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The actual data structure based ones we saw were stack, queue, tree, hashmap and array IIRC. < 1306668344 526728 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, oh and when someone tried plain array he or she said it was boring < 1306668356 231298 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that was John. < 1306668357 521941 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and switched to an array of dequeues iirc? < 1306668358 77111 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://mspaintadventures.wikia.com/wiki/Sylladex list 13 fetch modi. < 1306668358 207356 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :this late into the comic fetch moduses aren't brought up anymore < 1306668359 966272 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're all past that < 1306668368 877035 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu, hm true < 1306668426 887634 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how there's a big list of hypothesized mechanisms for the fetch modi we never saw get used, presented as though it were something bordering official < 1306668479 649951 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1306668510 422323 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-61-52.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1306668510 535998 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-61-52.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host < 1306668510 536072 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1306668515 581471 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=003899 and the following one make up one of my favourite sylladex-based jokes. < 1306668559 65467 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :the encryption modus is a parody of the first modus/the trouble john had with it because the readers suggested dumb things with high frequency < 1306668604 218826 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Sometimes you just like to pick stuff up and watch the colors. It's so beautiful. Life is beautiful." < 1306668630 503698 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quantum fetch modus: the best idea? < 1306668913 442785 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :honk HONK < 1306668927 750693 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are some pretty interesting esoteric data structures out there < 1306668948 252211 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like the array of questacks? < 1306668953 379111 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*queuestacks < 1306668960 124502 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :thing is they don't normally provide a new function, just do it faster or with less space < 1306668966 13679 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd only ever seek them out if you had an efficiency problem < 1306669140 414320 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a vaguely disturbing amount of adult Homestuck (mostly troll-related) fanart/fanfiction in the webs. (E.g. MSPAchan's "Adult Fanart" section has some 1320 postings in ~80 threads.) < 1306669195 577991 :cheater__!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-29-100.vodafone-net.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1306669236 131505 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wouldn't troll porn be utterly unrecognizable to humans, and visa versa? < 1306669241 11099 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah, you never saw elliott's reports on the fandom. < 1306669287 925738 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suffice to say that the ones who make porn of it aren't the end of the awfulness. < 1306669372 147193 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be pretty cool to invent a new data structure < 1306669374 428011 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what's not taken yet < 1306669632 627166 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Build the quadruply linked list. It's got two pointers to the next and two to the previous element, so that if a tornado or something strikes and one of the pointers break, the list doesn't come unraveled. < 1306669648 892130 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1306669656 988758 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, linked list and arrays (and possibly records) form the basis of every data structure in some sense. Trees are just branching linked lists. < 1306669670 479327 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is a tree not fundamentally different from a linked list then? < 1306669686 413247 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... . o O ( array tree? ) < 1306669705 552569 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu, array tree, do you mean b-tree as opposed to binary tree? < 1306669714 782330 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm yeah, I suppose b-tree would be that < 1306669727 847034 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :also there could be two stacks in the middle-ish and the tops of those stacks would have two-way links to every element so that the middles of the list don't hang too low and cut the masts of ships going under < 1306669752 425810 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, heh < 1306669762 845994 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :lmao < 1306669845 387927 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw this testing program once, called something like Jinx. it looked for possible race conditions in multithreaded programs and deliberately arranged their timing to cause it < 1306669849 907705 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : how is a tree not fundamentally different from a linked list then? <-- from a pure structural point of view it is just a branching linked list. From a usage point of view it is however quite different < 1306669885 372397 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu, I believe valgrind --tool=helgrind (or whatever the tool was called) can do that < 1306669935 572533 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://valgrind.org/docs/manual/hg-manual.html Ah, so it does < 1306669942 43767 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking of a different one but this works too < 1306670002 469689 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :a tree is fundamentally different from a linked list in the sense that lists are a proper subset of trees; you can implement trees using linked lists though < 1306670051 782102 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofc both can be thought of as a mess of cons cells < 1306670312 691358 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, :D < 1306670333 374229 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, yes, arrays however is not a mess of cons cells. Making it fundamentally different < 1306670354 236411 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :are* < 1306670355 910783 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can think of the mess of cons cells (with pointers) as an array with integers in it, though. < 1306670357 274698 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :them* < 1306670387 273522 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i'll skip the obvious comeback < 1306670407 442193 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :or continuation i mean < 1306670454 10464 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : You can think of the mess of cons cells (with pointers) as an array with integers in it, though. <-- true < 1306670697 149768 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :man, multithreading is so -complicated- < 1306670708 658387 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it bad design like SQL and its injection issues or just something fundamental about it? < 1306670744 616464 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually it's not hard for anyone else, i guess you're just dumb < 1306670760 936433 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol :D < 1306670764 356166 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1306670784 498536 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Version_history < 1306670788 800009 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sweet troll jegus. < 1306670789 279845 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw that < 1306670790 409768 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's hilarious < 1306670803 692451 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :no problems are hard really, it's just that most people are too stupid for most of them < 1306670809 821197 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Bug Fixes: < 1306670810 67683 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fixed new item duplication bug < 1306670810 140708 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :New Bugs: < 1306670810 212727 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The item duplication bug was not actually fixed;" < 1306670828 349074 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1306670833 239518 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well they are non-local problems so they tend to be hard in a non-trivial program < 1306670847 473281 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hilariously, I was getting downvoted to hell for predicting exactly this on /r/Minecraft nearly a week before the update. < 1306670854 841763 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1306670868 555976 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :...he quoted someone who has actually done serious multithreading. < 1306671102 427736 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1306671156 452271 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1306671429 783751 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-184-153.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1306671459 968653 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-133.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1306672038 456611 :cheater__!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-29-100.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1306672286 563162 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 . < 1306672962 844759 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/hmim4/hey_rmath_im_using_this_summer_to_learn_a/ < 1306672966 974958 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Left without comment. < 1306672980 214831 :ralc!~ralc@79.142.230.243.static.knet.bolignet.dk JOIN :#esoteric < 1306673090 267427 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1306673809 707923 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Using the NumPy and SciPy libraries will give you the tools you need to solve harder math problems. < 1306673811 574277 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1306673842 772841 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i prove most my graph-related theorems using numpy < 1306674491 719617 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, but isn't python rather slow, both to execute and to program in. < 1306674507 29277 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, a higher level language might be better, and also likely faster < 1306674516 443516 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1306674618 259113 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it was mentioned in that link. That explains it. Irony. < 1306674987 493839 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-184-153.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1306675039 401570 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, you should tell them that. < 1306675081 576034 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-224-164.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1306675355 286474 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.35 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1306675599 342006 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is it that for multi-monitor setups with inequal sizes for the monitors you get some non-visible space in some corner. Why does the window system have to use a rectangle to represent the possible screen area < 1306675629 197703 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :this means it possible to drag the mouse, or windows, where you can't see it/them < 1306675653 18342 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather it should make such areas inaccessible by default. < 1306675673 656064 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, the SA Homestuck thread is referring obliquely to something called the Kanayachair, with the instructions for finding it being "google 'kanaya doll'". < 1306675688 781474 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will my curiosity overcome the fact that I am using my neighbour's wifi? < 1306675701 217811 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, try encrypted.google.com < 1306675701 941356 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1306675720 519294 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No image search. < 1306675725 190708 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm true < 1306675738 991603 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, wait, you get inline image results on encrypted.google.com still < 1306675779 232660 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh god why did I do that aaaaaaa < 1306675796 6072 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, wait there are images on encrypted.google.com now < 1306675803 524440 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are. < 1306675821 372549 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :when did they add that heh < 1306675832 944765 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean image search is listed in the side bar < 1306675837 231237 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it didn't use to be < 1306676013 815739 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, interesting, googling PCMCIA rule 34 with safe search off gives me nothing still. < 1306676024 942891 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :PCMCIA? < 1306676055 547764 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, standard for removable extension cards in laptops. Predates PC Card < 1306676081 367657 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I think it turned into PC Card < 1306676089 970179 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, well, you could always commission someone to draw some for you. < 1306676097 366673 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, har har :P < 1306676116 838861 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No longer need those with weird fetishes be left out in the cold! < 1306676130 145939 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Unless they're into that.) < 1306676134 260538 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1306676143 687822 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if there is porn on SCSI < 1306676152 856489 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the spirit! < 1306676180 664249 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well hm I get some non SCSI related hits < 1306676232 408249 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, findings are inconclusive. The porn in there seems completely unrelated to SCSI < 1306676646 982293 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel for you, I really do. < 1306676676 315249 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps there will be something suitably interface-based if you simply google "computer porn"? < 1306676704 110793 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, it probably won't be standards-compliant, but it might be all you can get. < 1306676725 701001 :augur!~augur@208.58.6.161 JOIN :#esoteric < 1306676747 296575 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, :P < 1306676799 238734 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, anyway it seems rule 34 is thus invalid. That is a much more interesting fact. < 1306677603 569603 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are those boards where you can request rule 34 on a topic, I think. < 1306677848 463107 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The numpy/scipy pair wasn't too shabby alternative in some contexts for MATLAB. I mean, the pure-python execution speed isn't so very critical, it uses BLAS/LAPACK for the actually costly linear-algebra options and so on. < 1306677927 544029 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1306677993 751947 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a multi-monitor setup done in the old-fashioned way, with separate X screens, doesn't have to be rectangular. The ones that are xrandr/twinview-style "single framebuffer, multiple views to it" do, maybe because no-one wants to handle non-rectangular framebuffers in graphics memory; but even there those non-visible areas are marked as such and normally windows and the mouse cursor shouldn't go there. < 1306678079 869184 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm... it is possible to drag the mouse out to the non-visible areas. Also windows. At least windows don't open there by default < 1306678080 51907 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Added-value element: from the above sequence of replies you can deduce I don't read the visible backscroll oldest-to-newest, nor newest-to-oldest, but in some sort of mixed order. < 1306678122 151348 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's probably the window manager's fault, then. < 1306678133 190108 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I believe it is metacity < 1306678143 773499 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1306678151 44931 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though if it's possible to drag windows partially outside the desktop itself -- which it often is -- it should consistently be possible to drag things to the non-visible areas too. < 1306678166 449676 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, but the mouse can go to the non-visible areas too < 1306678174 392062 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's just silly, then. < 1306678175 932920 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :dragging windows does indeed make some sense < 1306678190 189739 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, indeed < 1306678214 81861 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Back when I had a non-rectangular desktop, the mouse didn't enter the hidden area; but that was of the "multiple X screens" variety, come to think of it. < 1306678240 118761 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"xwd -root -out blah.xwd" did produce a bitmap with some garbage in the missing parts. < 1306678245 881676 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, anyway on the virtual-desktop "preview" thingy down in the lower gnome panel, it represents the whole rectangular area < 1306678257 176479 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :including those windows dragged outside < 1306678284 589150 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :but windows dragged outside the "real" edges are definitely cut off < 1306678294 669555 :cheater__!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-29-100.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :discombobricating: http://www.kriminoviny.sk/zvolen-dopravna-nehoda-na-zeleznicnom-priecesti/2007-07-19/ < 1306678304 216732 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can have X in such a mode that one screen scrolls vertically to keep the mouse cursor visible. < 1306678333 198557 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yes I know. Managed to get that by mistake a few times back when you did manual config < 1306678345 412376 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used twm back then heh < 1306678380 472582 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, the large scrolling screen thing works quite well with twm, but not with DEs like gnome and kde < 1306678396 492212 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The setup I have at work is non-rectangular but done as a single screen + xrandr (set up by Gnome's monitor thingie, I think) for outputs; I don't quite remember how it behaves. < 1306678417 668606 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least popup menus manage to properly avoid opening into the empty area, which wasn't the case for some early setup way back when. < 1306678417 968111 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh btw my setup is laptop screen (15.4" 16:10) below desktop monitor (22" or 24", forgot which, 16:9) < 1306678422 518003 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1306678448 587956 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what it does for the mouse cursor. < 1306678456 744400 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1306678515 930002 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The multi-screen setup was funny in the sense that in the one "tall" screen (1280, as opposed to 1200) the lowest 80 pixels simply didn't allow the cursor pass at all, so sometimes when you just wanted to drag the cursor from the tall screen to the non-tall ones it would get stuck if it were in the bottom and the mouse movement didn't have a large enough y-direction component. < 1306678530 5472 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, one issue is that the top gnome panel thing is on the laptop screen. And metacity decided maximising on that screen means adjusting for the lower gnome panel (as usual) but expanding the window to the top of the screen. So the top is hidden under the upper gnome panel < 1306678566 581267 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, huh? < 1306678569 697922 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how do you mean < 1306678602 757312 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how would you unstick it? < 1306678654 943089 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just by moving up; it would slide like the cursor normally does at the edge of the desktop. It's just that you'd assume that to move the cursor to the screen on the left you'd just need a general "swipe to the left without further thinking" motion, but that wasn't enough in all cases, since you might hit that wall. < 1306678673 920037 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so why were those 80 pixels unusable? < 1306678709 993733 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The screen was 1280 pixels tall, and the others only 1200, and there wasn't any desktop to go to, left from the bottom 80 lines. < 1306678717 774971 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that way < 1306678724 853605 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it just made it an impassable thing like the normal desktop edge. < 1306678761 789272 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I thought you meant it used the minimum height all across or something as silly < 1306678762 791275 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1306678775 478467 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the lower 80 pixels on the tall monitor were inaccessible < 1306678788 432318 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, no. That would've been quite a lot worse. < 1306678837 949343 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as cursor motion is concerned, I still would've preferred it to either wrap to the bottom of the non-tall screen when moving out of the 80 lowest lines of the tall screen, or alternatively linearly scaling the relative heights (which incidentally is what Synergy does by default). < 1306678865 527166 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think some other setup worked like the first approach there. < 1306678888 638704 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I think synergy can do both of those. But that is for multiple computers < 1306678897 544941 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I guess you could apply it between x servers < 1306678901 812727 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems like a stupid idea however < 1306678908 41125 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's quite configurable, yes; you can specify arbitrary mappings. < 1306678924 92969 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how did you drag windows between the screens with that style of setup? < 1306678941 117748 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :They were different X screens, so the answer is just "I didn't". < 1306678950 608774 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1306678981 812809 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries that xwd command above < 1306679006 441757 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also couldn't even open Firefox on more than one monitor, since it -- or pretty much anything else either -- can't connect to different screens from the same process, and you can't run multiple copies of the same profile simultaneously. < 1306679043 241021 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird. It gives black bg to the icons in the notification bar or whatever it is called < 1306679078 104688 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you mean the indicator applet? < 1306679262 29876 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yes < 1306679272 753014 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, where things like nm-applet and the mixer icon goes < 1306679311 954138 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :nm-applet falls back to systray if it can't find an ayatana-indicator-holder device. < 1306679329 558325 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I think it even dynamically switches if one appears/disappears. < 1306679335 64779 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yes, that thing, then. < 1306679364 651510 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I wonder what nm-applet does if there's no systray either.) < 1306679416 282444 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ayatana-indicator-holder <-- ?? < 1306679448 229389 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The indicator applet is the thing that shows Ayatana Indicators; the icon-and-menu thingies. < 1306679459 451231 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have nothing called ayatana* according to tab complete in bash < 1306679471 320750 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that's just the name of the project. < 1306679499 107258 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, btw the right click menu on the applets is weird. It scrolls up. But is on the same screen < 1306679504 136655 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :like it was displayed above the screen < 1306679510 289291 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you have to scroll the menu < 1306679519 191624 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you see what I mean < 1306679555 201005 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not entirely, but it sounds weird anyway. < 1306679624 645526 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well... fizzie imagine the menu items are displayed like the right click menu went up. But the actual menu area goes down. And you have a ^ at the top of the displayed area that when you move the mouse to it scrolls the menu items in by moving them downwards smoothly < 1306679628 553373 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, see what I mean now? < 1306679629 951994 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1306679644 600998 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. I think I've seen that kind of behaviour somewhere. < 1306679661 681300 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it seems to only affect the indicator-area handle thingy in fact. And right click for nm-applet. Nothing else < 1306679667 244663 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not left click for nm-applet either < 1306679669 600980 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1306679711 822967 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :A weird thing about the laptop: if I enable the Bluetooth, it autostarts bluetoothd (as "bluetoothd --udev") but that copy of bluetooth just simply does not work; if I kill it and start one manually (with no arguments; haven't checked whether the --udev part makes a difference) things work just fine. < 1306679800 958383 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I have sometimes had to restart bluetooth daemon, the /etc/init.d/bluetooth-whatever one that is < 1306679805 217038 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :after enabling bluetooth < 1306679845 157423 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, if I don't the bluetooth status according to the bluetooth menu goes on and off several times per second (remains on according to the bluetooth led though) < 1306679869 640813 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :speaking of which... where did the bluetooth menu go < 1306679872 14862 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1306679896 778728 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, it went off raiding coastal towns. < 1306679907 79455 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :har har < 1306679939 39354 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf < 1306679955 46629 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Told you so. < 1306679966 699342 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think gnome-panel likes my monitor setup... nor does it like switching between different setup < 1306679968 423536 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :setups* < 1306679976 667429 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So wait, have you moved to less tangible peripheral erotica? < 1306679981 567040 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :believe it or not... it was below the clock < 1306679992 416084 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, what? < 1306680007 548780 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, are you looking for Bluetooth porn now? < 1306680016 476067 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, ... no < 1306680042 380114 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, besides I was just interested in if there was porn for something as boring as PCMCIA. I don't have a fetish for it. < 1306680043 824336 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1306680059 195205 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, such a fetish sounds way to normal anyway < 1306680062 928824 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suuuuure. < 1306680095 936857 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway hm maybe killing gnome-panel and restarting it will help. Because I can't get it out from under the clock... < 1306680115 82232 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're more of an ExpressCard man then, eh? < 1306680131 73975 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hehe < 1306680143 614041 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, nah. ISA ftw < 1306680144 332925 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, who isn't? < 1306680157 825948 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Was going to say CardBus, but I guess that's technically just PCMCIA version X.Y.) < 1306680235 978598 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2260&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+smbc-comics%2FPvLb+%28Saturday+Morning+Breakfast+Cereal+%28updated+daily%29%29 < 1306680265 997072 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no f way that is the canonical url for whatever you wanted to link < 1306680275 43893 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, it isn't. < 1306680286 600673 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the horribly long link Google Reader gives me. < 1306680318 919388 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1306680679 73501 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1306681473 703439 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1306681544 537768 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan JOIN :#esoteric < 1306682611 735965 :augur!~augur@208.58.6.161 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1306682637 650126 :augur!~augur@208.58.6.161 JOIN :#esoteric < 1306683582 430974 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :MigoMipo: Migol 11 suggestion: shouldn't I/O error include a "permission denied" value? < 1306683614 58476 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-11-56.tn.glocalnet.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, as in opening files for example? < 1306683633 653808 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or when the interpreter refuses to open a file. < 1306683637 872005 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sandboxing etc.) < 1306683708 950315 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-11-56.tn.glocalnet.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe, I haven't thought a lot about error handling. The current code just sets error to 1 when any java.io.IOException occurs < 1306683931 401400 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i think reading from \ can be used to poll the interrupt. < 1306684080 16019 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, no, i misread the specification. as the interrupt immediately takes the control the polling is not meaningful.. < 1306684290 85421 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, hmmm.. SSA would allow you to detect variables with local scope in bf right? At least to some degree. < 1306684293 115983 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :MigoMipo: what does a preceding _ before ":label" mean? < 1306684304 515277 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-11-56.tn.glocalnet.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, forgot to write about that < 1306684308 324749 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-11-56.tn.glocalnet.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a NOP statement < 1306684323 219776 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, then the statement label goes *after* the statement? < 1306684331 233852 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-11-56.tn.glocalnet.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it does :P < 1306684360 720392 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-11-56.tn.glocalnet.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slightly confusing, but I kinda like the suffix syntax < 1306684360 821878 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, what sort of algorithm would be able to optimise this btw, [-]+>[-]+>[-]<<[>]? < 1306684376 443939 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: SSA itself does not do such operations, but i think the algorithms operating on the SSA can do it. < 1306684389 164196 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, right. And the second case? < 1306684419 184332 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, I think trying to figure out minimum/maximum moved distance for unbalanced loops might be useful. < 1306684425 236396 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: that would require some kind of abstract interpretation. < 1306684432 366944 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, it would definitely be possible at the start of the program < 1306684451 248731 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course. but if you are in the middle of the biggish program, say, LostKng? < 1306684458 735344 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, you could do it for the seek case (that is [>] [>>] and so on, plus [<] etc) < 1306684463 588119 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :without too much work < 1306684514 480729 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, if you keep track of something like "known zero, known non-zero, unknown" < 1306684515 956872 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i meant that [>>] in the middle of the program cannot be optimized (rather than the direct translation) without the knowledge of the approximate memory state < 1306684544 376498 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, yes indeed. But you keep track of memory anyway right, otherwise how could you optimise into "set" rather than "add" < 1306684549 458069 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the approximate memory state is not that simple. < 1306684590 636354 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :esotope-bfc does a local analysis, so codes like {3}=0;{3}+=4 can be (trivially) optimized to {3}=4. < 1306684599 689886 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it does not track the whole state of memory yet. < 1306684601 71682 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, even my bf compiler did some basic stuff, like "known value" to be able to propagate constants and so on, including across balanced loops. < 1306684605 646395 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-224-164.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1306684620 850137 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-189-47.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1306684628 867423 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems like tracking memory across unbalanced movement would be difficult < 1306684628 986471 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then i should implement it to beat yours ;) < 1306684643 24354 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, your compiler does way better optimisation of nested loops than mine did < 1306684647 444864 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, so you already beat me on that < 1306684658 265024 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had vague idea on the memory state; see bfc/memstate.py for that. < 1306684658 642920 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*loops < 1306684675 342417 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but actually using it is quite difficult. < 1306684697 771478 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, basically my intpreter had a dict with known expressions for memory offsets. Discarding it after unbalanced loops and adding the only known value in (that the current cell must be zero, or we would not have left the loop) < 1306684701 835323 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :err compiler < 1306684703 753822 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not interpreter < 1306684790 33563 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, I found this quite easy to code actually. For balanced loop it cleared out values that it could not know. Like taking the set of offsets modified in the loop and removing them from the dict. Well it did propagate some known state out of the loop. Like if a value was always set < 1306684800 568266 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and the loop always entered at least once) < 1306684845 755572 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, anyway I did consider using this for optimising [>] but never got around to that iirc < 1306684868 392667 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: exactly speaking, such kind of analysis is already done by esotope-bfc (see references() methods etc.) but i meant that the analysis stayed within the local scope. < 1306684876 730954 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, oh and I see you do not discard set to same value. Like lostking code you generate starts with several p[n] = 0 < 1306684886 942239 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, hm < 1306684899 539495 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's exactly what the "initialmemory" pass of esotope-bfc does. < 1306684948 562761 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, by the way. Why does running all the optimiser passes twice (in compiler.py using "for passcls in self.optpasses + self.optpasses:" that is) cause esotope-bfc to generate incorrect code < 1306684950 458292 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, using the complex memory state for more precise analysis was one of my goal, but i never got it < 1306684972 124686 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: really? can you give me an example? that must be a bug. < 1306684984 844782 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, well try it on lostkingdom. The resulting C program segfaults. < 1306685010 679483 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, I haven't tried with smaller programs < 1306685034 970108 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, if you included the stdlib pass at the end of optpasses then it will get confused < 1306685037 389185 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, it did remove some code that seemed impossible to remove (non-dead loops removed mostly iirc) < 1306685047 801907 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, why is that < 1306685063 250679 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, what does stdlib do that makes other passes fail? < 1306685080 889315 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was designed to be the last postprocessing pass... < 1306685097 624018 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it is likely for other passes to fail. < 1306685102 639516 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, hm. I did the equiv of stdlib (constantifying output) right in the middle of my passes < 1306685109 655759 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I ran it all to fixpoint anyway < 1306685112 263648 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlike you < 1306685152 187965 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i should rewrite esotope-bfc at some point, using the better IL and algorithm < 1306685166 322969 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the current form of esotope-bfc was written in a hurry. < 1306685176 15113 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hurry? You had a deadline? < 1306685195 482229 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, what is the metaclass stuff btw for expressions and conditions? < 1306685224 909068 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, I'm curios. < 1306685227 11050 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :curious* < 1306685237 154275 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: that was a subject of my undergraduate thesis < 1306685247 614858 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, heh? the compiler? < 1306685251 793885 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1306685255 400708 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :How good is the optimization in your compiler? < 1306685265 512973 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :+[>+] < 1306685267 73808 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i was working on esotope-bfc before i chose the subject for my thesis < 1306685272 882971 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would it be able to optimize that into a simple infinite loop? < 1306685282 333561 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think not. < 1306685287 227155 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :doubtful. < 1306685322 362254 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymia, if in the middle of the program it would be unlikely to know that there is no cell with 255 ahead. < 1306685333 7106 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, I mean that as a standalone program. < 1306685341 965171 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :+[>[-]+] < 1306685344 149723 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about that? < 1306685362 553370 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe. But iirc it doesn't try to do much on unbalanced loops < 1306685371 847687 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it isn't optimized into a simple infinite loop, would gcc be able to optimize the generated code? < 1306685376 87622 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: my undergraduate thesis on esotope-bfc was about the moreloop pass, which is considered mostly useless (it did optimize some code, but not enough general). < 1306685395 949221 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, what did moreloop do? < 1306685398 593757 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot < 1306685427 978175 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, it was meant to optimize codes like [-[-[-[-...]...]...]...] < 1306685435 749382 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, into what? < 1306685441 878317 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :commonly seen in rot13 and so on < 1306685472 40314 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the optimal case, such nested While nodes should be collapsed into one While node with more complex condition < 1306685477 848805 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i never managed it < 1306685482 820335 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah okay < 1306685490 849604 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should write my own optimization BF compiler.... in Brainfuck < 1306685498 42834 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :ing* < 1306685501 310503 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymia, have fun. I wrote mine in erlang. < 1306685508 488458 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and esotope-bfc is python < 1306685512 750092 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :a C case block with fall through might help there... < 1306685521 509764 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should also noet that i started to convert esotope-bfc to ocaml < 1306685533 678783 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, ah nice < 1306685538 381296 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not yet committed to hg.mearie.org, so you're not able to see it yet) < 1306685539 749378 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's write a Lisp->Brainfuck compiler. < 1306685574 487614 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymia, painful, especially since Lisp allows first-class functions and BF... doesn't. < 1306685578 87812 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, I don't know about standard libraries there, but I found that erlang have suitable modules for many things that I needed. Even for directed graphs. < 1306685582 999680 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :languages with first-order (not first-class) functions are easier to translate < 1306685611 147041 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :first-class functions are not impossible to translate, but i think they should be rewritten in first-order-only form first < 1306685630 101181 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: great. < 1306685645 150000 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's build a Brainfuck CPU in Minecraft. < 1306685649 895631 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, but ocaml probably have good libraries for data structures < 1306685673 119004 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymia, you know about the CPU built in minecraft already I assume? < 1306685674 116889 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymia: auto-generating a world from Brainfuck code? < 1306685743 580275 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, yes. < 1306685754 17674 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Buh. < 1306685759 949357 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would like this idea more if memory in Minecraft wasn't gian.t < 1306685761 734602 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :giant* < 1306685804 200212 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Yes may refer to: < 1306685804 320284 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :* One of a pair of English words, yes and no < 1306685804 393161 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :* The affirmative grammatical particle in the English language < 1306685804 393338 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :* An indication of acceptance" < 1306685813 379284 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it just me or are those three all the same thing? < 1306685813 948313 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymia, hm... I guess sram would be smaller than dram in minecraft < 1306685891 852066 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :by dram you mean a delay-node memory using redstone repeater? < 1306685904 920080 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and flip-flops by sram) < 1306685924 497044 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1306685928 290192 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, what would a wired clear routine look like anyways? < 1306685969 443453 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1306685992 968684 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymia, well my point was sram is larger than dram in real life. And you can't do dram in minecraft < 1306686006 285711 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymia, the most compact memory would be delay lines < 1306686015 301661 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, no clue how those work. < 1306686023 298100 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would it do well for Brainfuck? < 1306686029 390683 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really no < 1306686035 516019 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :delay lines are not random access < 1306686060 606331 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it possible to shift them right/left? < 1306686065 425650 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymia, they work by sending data down a slow loop, cycling it back at the end to form an infinite loop < 1306686076 114897 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: did you see this: http://www.remcobloemen.nl/2010/02/brainfuck-using-llvm/ < 1306686077 430783 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "tapping" it off at the cycle point < 1306686083 673604 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, no, *looks* < 1306686096 78159 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymia, basically, they are utterly unsuitable for bf :P < 1306686105 107534 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1306686111 681071 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delay_line_memory < 1306686118 441354 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some guy compiled a brainfuck code using LLVM, and get the comparative result with esotope-bfc < 1306686123 365906 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's quite a feat < 1306686127 665144 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of LLVM, of course) < 1306686162 879975 :augur!~augur@208.58.6.161 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.cse.chalmers.se/research/group/logic/TypesSS05/Extra/mcbride3.epi < 1306686169 616542 :augur!~augur@208.58.6.161 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they say epigram isnt an esolang.. < 1306686175 277251 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, quite impressive < 1306686193 904409 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: ... two-dimensional? < 1306686201 685923 :augur!~augur@208.58.6.161 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of! < 1306686229 621720 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, looks cool but aligning that stuff in ascii would probably take more time than writing it out linearly < 1306686234 554440 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not a fan of inference rule in general: it makes papers hard to read. < 1306686245 738459 :augur!~augur@208.58.6.161 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: tell that to conor mcbride < 1306686256 979237 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and sometimes the inference rule and plain English description does not match :( < 1306686257 795230 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: maybe you just need an editor that does rectangular selections < 1306686291 654160 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, well more than that. It would need to know how much to move sideways if you make a division wider for example < 1306686308 553863 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, without me making a selection for it < 1306686321 6296 :augur!~augur@208.58.6.161 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i prefer properly typeset epigram < 1306686327 798500 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming those *are* divisions < 1306686343 530135 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1306686350 739371 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe not < 1306686384 261479 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well anyway, if I wrote in the middle of such a multiline expression it should know how to move other stuff < 1306686390 827970 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: ehm, no, the horizontal lines separate conditions and inferences (or whatever they're called) < 1306686414 17128 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it would need to handle centring properly < 1306686437 762170 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and nested ones < 1306686461 688385 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: i think i forgot to mention it, but one important thing when you are using SSA form for brainfuck-to-c compiler is how to convert the control-flow graph into the linear form < 1306686487 794242 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, well, how does a normal C compiler do while loops? < 1306686511 279854 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, lets ignore unbalanced loops for now. They would end blocks. Just look at balanced ones < 1306686517 494633 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :constructs the control-flow graph. the original structure generally isn't kept. < 1306686535 117973 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, in fact Emscripten did a lot of work on that subject (fortunately). < 1306686539 991123 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, how does it deal with non-local variables? < 1306686578 833868 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: that is handled in the other way. < 1306686589 840831 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, what other way? < 1306686613 179094 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhm, what's your point about asking about non-local variables? < 1306686619 955877 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on* < 1306686635 526349 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, that it would have to preserve some of the underlying structure to map stuff to things like global arrays < 1306686652 200553 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it can update them when leaving the function or whatever < 1306686664 203764 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Optimization is starting to sound like a black art. < 1306686688 129756 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, I know it uses the rho function to merge variables from different branches in, say, int x = 0; if (...) x++; < 1306686690 216346 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :You witches. < 1306686700 926052 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you have something like x_3 = rho(x1,x2) < 1306686702 291348 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1306686705 731762 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1306686717 318304 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, how does it do it for loops though < 1306686719 768482 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :if is easy < 1306686723 446282 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that program will have three basic blocks (if you count the last empty block) < 1306686723 519228 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :loops are harder < 1306686733 370480 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, right < 1306686752 224290 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then the outgoing edges of the basic block for loop body will go to itself < 1306686773 6393 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, now make that int x = 0 static, so it can't just be discarded at the end of the function. What now. < 1306686818 887333 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, and right. For balanced loops the control flow graph can't be too hard can it? < 1306686827 486687 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :What /is/ the rho function? < 1306686854 496393 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymia, a function that merges multiple paths for SSA < 1306686871 210773 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is an SSA? < 1306686881 510342 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: rho? don't you mean phi? < 1306686889 673126 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, oh right, that was it < 1306686889 745193 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: well, if you have a code like this: int x; void f(void) { x = 0; if (...) x++; } then x should not be discarded < 1306686894 287714 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, greek letter anyway < 1306686902 758186 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, indeed. < 1306686904 829816 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as that is a side effect of f (on the global variable). < 1306686918 533918 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can gcc optimize the code down farther for you? < 1306686921 352618 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, you would presumably need to track the scope of assignments < 1306686949 888046 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc SSI, which is very similar to SSA, uses rho for control-flow splits (it needs splits to be marked, not only merges) < 1306686958 969597 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, ah < 1306686959 471548 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course. some aggressive compiler can lift global variables to local variables first and treat them just like local variables, but then it is not a different thing < 1306686965 51056 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, what does SSI stand for? < 1306686989 55081 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :single static information < 1306686991 347683 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymia, it works on the C code, and probably does some work. But with the knowledge of brainfuck you can do a better job < 1306686994 437545 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: something like rho(x2, x3) = x1? < 1306686994 967554 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, ah okay < 1306687000 773107 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, ah. < 1306687041 168951 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymia, I won't be happy until I can read and understand the generated code from compiling lost kingdom. :P < 1306687048 803888 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, you're insane. < 1306687052 508091 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1306687065 299978 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymia, tell elliott. He believes I'm the only sane person here. < 1306687075 954627 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh; < 1306687077 195037 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: btw, the relooper algorithm employed by Emscripten seems good enough for brainfuck-to-c compiler, so i think i just adopt it (if i can). < 1306687077 891697 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :.* < 1306687082 340746 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir: I don't remember the details ... I suspect there are different variants depending on what kind of conditionals you use < 1306687086 474704 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymia, and thus that I'm boring < 1306687110 36174 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: ah, yes, there can be three or more outgoing edges. < 1306687121 538535 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : Vorpal: btw, the relooper algorithm employed by Emscripten seems good enough for brainfuck-to-c compiler, so i think i just adopt it (if i can). <-- I'm not familiar with that one < 1306687145 225862 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :see http://emscripten.googlecode.com/hg/docs/paper.pdf for details. < 1306687166 477994 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :llvm to js? < 1306687167 338040 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf < 1306687167 696459 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it translates the CFG into the form that can be readily translated to Javascript code < 1306687190 397541 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you should run the CPython translated by Emscripten in your browser ;) < 1306687201 747662 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's insane, but it works < 1306687203 694210 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, ouch. < 1306687225 32750 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, in firefox. With 2 GB RAM in the system. No thanks. < 1306687260 195463 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir: essentially you take x1 and if you have a conditional (if x1 > 3 then goto a else goto b) then you'll create x2 and x3 out of "x1, x1 > 3" and "x1, x1 <= 3" and use those new variables in the two respective branches and use their extra information < 1306687265 48756 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, i just ran the translated CPython in the system with only one gig of RAM. it's not that tough. < 1306687301 887831 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: so the IL (not only analyzes) conveys that information, right? < 1306687308 273931 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, ooh nice < 1306687320 504505 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: http://syntensity.com/static/python.html < 1306687321 8714 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine it might look something like "x2, x3 = rho(x1, x1 < 3)", I just have a vague recollection something called rho was involved somewhere :> < 1306687344 258065 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did consider tracking such info in my bf compiler, but I saw no easy way to make use of it < 1306687395 32910 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, when I disable noscript it just goes loading, locking the browser up < 1306687396 914422 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :*waits* < 1306687424 170817 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, loaded but doesn't work < 1306687427 489934 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :your browser can be locked up by long-running javascript? < 1306687442 196800 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, yes, firefox 3.6.17 < 1306687442 269753 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the firefox, yes. < 1306687452 720720 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm on long term support ubuntu release < 1306687471 827023 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, well anyway, for me that page doesn't work < 1306687480 921045 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, probably needs a newer firefox or something? < 1306687484 908454 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :execute does nothing < 1306687514 191090 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange, i think i ran it in firefox 3.6.x just fine < 1306687532 929143 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i don't have firefox 3.6.x right now, as all machine i use have firefox 4 now) < 1306687681 981577 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :MigoMipo: so the core language of Migol 11 is stable, right? < 1306687695 118541 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should update esotope-migol then ;) < 1306687742 971413 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, anyway that llvm one, how much does it do in llvm? Does it do basic +++ merging before it hits llvm or? < 1306687760 456639 :ralc!~ralc@79.142.230.243.static.knet.bolignet.dk QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1306687771 871461 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the treatment of global variables in SSA form? < 1306687777 855145 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know much about it < 1306687803 511235 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, no I meant the bf llvm compiler < 1306687824 869191 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, from what I tell it doesn't merge constant output at least < 1306687842 874489 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, it ran the predetermined optimization passes of LLVM < 1306687857 256331 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, so +++ merging and so on happened inside llvm? < 1306687868 353421 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1306687879 90017 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1306687907 591785 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, that must be slow. llvm isn't built for that sort of rather "stupid" input < 1306687925 714467 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-189-47.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1306687930 874264 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :esotope-bfc has a code for converting [--->+<] (yes, that extended euclidean stuff), but LLVM also has such code < 1306687947 177676 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-11-56.tn.glocalnet.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir: Yes, the core language is pretty much stable, the I/O functions are in progress though < 1306687964 382363 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, iirc my code can do it for some cases. < 1306687967 410168 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot the details < 1306688005 781990 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, can you do it for nested loops? Say a multiplication algorithm < 1306688015 431670 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the algorithm is fairly simple, once you know the extended euclidean algorithm and bezout's identity < 1306688031 980839 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1306688063 571400 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: the scalar evolution algorithm should convert the code like int s = 0; for (int i=4; i!=0; i-=3) s+=1; into the multiplication. < 1306688096 95341 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, better than what my compiler did then iirc < 1306688112 398525 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in this case, s = 2863311532;?) < 1306688112 540915 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, I think I could simply polynoms, nothing more < 1306688160 476311 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, eh? < 1306688164 168737 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: and LLVM also has a code for solving quadratic recurrence, so it's definitely better than esotope-bfc for that algorithm < 1306688184 693786 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, which algorithm? multiplication? < 1306688188 198034 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guh. < 1306688191 194278 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's all this high level math? < 1306688204 24129 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to get to college soon... or just pull out google < 1306688219 994781 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, well I'm kind of lost wrt how Bezout's identity apply to all this < 1306688224 827851 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: something like for (int i=4; i!=0; i-=3) for (int j=i; j!=0; j-=5) s++;. < 1306688237 735485 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, shouldn't that be char for bf? < 1306688252 984267 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that's just an illustrative example < 1306688287 516669 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1306688308 732274 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymia: Sorry, but the math that we care about only gets taught outside of primary and secondary education. < 1306688337 822370 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh. < 1306688339 903599 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, shit, you're doing well to graduate from high school with knowledge of elementary algebra and basic Euclidean geometry. < 1306688340 226809 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :To Google then, < 1306688347 974442 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, well, to be frank, I have no clue how this step of optimisation works. And reading wikipedia on Bezout's identity certainly explained why extended gcd is useful, but I don't see the connection of this identity to figuring out how many times the loop is iterated. < 1306688380 942848 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: the algorithm effectively computes that: what is the number of iterations of this loop: for (i=0; i!=k; i+=m); < 1306688388 450696 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=300#comic can you find it < 1306688397 852156 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that i is a W-bit integer. < 1306688400 568947 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :took me under 3 sec < 1306688421 703117 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, can you explain why it computes that? Doesn't have to be a formal proof of it. But something to make me understand why < 1306688466 823954 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, if you have a brainfuck code like [+++>-<], then it is equivalent to: while (m[0]) { m[0] += 3; m[1] -= 1; }. < 1306688482 475775 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then m[1] after the loop depends on the number of iterations of that while loop < 1306688518 524271 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, is Google a suitable teacher? < 1306688519 322632 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :=p < 1306688520 199732 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm yes < 1306688529 397649 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, so far I'm with you < 1306688539 890366 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, certainly if m = 0 then it loops forever. < 1306688572 371313 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see what he's trying to say. < 1306688575 379945 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, don't you mean if m[0] = 0 ? < 1306688581 55962 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it wouldn't enter then < 1306688589 771452 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :if m[0] = 0, it wouldn't loop. < 1306688592 755401 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymia: Certainly a better teacher than most. < 1306688593 364568 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: that m comes from for (i=0; i!=k; i+=m);. < 1306688593 538425 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1306688596 796144 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry for confusion < 1306688597 516081 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :If m[0] += 0, it is an infinite loop. < 1306688604 29105 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otherwise? < 1306688630 30848 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, right. But how do you get that m (and the k) from the while loop given above < 1306688638 630015 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymia: otherwise, let's say i was indeed an arbitrary-sized integer and "pretends" to be a W-bit integer. < 1306688640 874522 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I understand the extended gcd comes from there < 1306688654 204017 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't understand how < 1306688661 910728 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then at the end of loop i should be n times 2^W plus k, where n is an integer < 1306688684 318754 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, i modulo 2^W is k (but i itself does not have to be k, of course) < 1306688692 139108 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrrm < 1306688709 825138 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, well, in C, it does, right? < 1306688710 367908 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :=p < 1306688714 494704 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we have: n * 2^W + k = j * m. < 1306688717 793921 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymia: yep. < 1306688723 442183 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(where the j is the number of iterations) < 1306688741 262830 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :So. < 1306688742 616305 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah I keep loosing track of which letter was what < 1306688756 938465 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the equation is equivalent to: j * m - n * 2^W = k. < 1306688801 905469 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1306688821 721693 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is very similar to the bezout's identity: a * x + b * y = d. < 1306688852 348872 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :extended euclidean algorithm is used to determine one solution of x and y when given a, b and d < 1306688857 859324 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1306688883 820009 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one pitfall here is it is possible that k is not a multiple of gcd(a,b) here. < 1306688888 418784 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, so, gcd(sizeof(int),k)? < 1306688900 471897 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymia: 1 << sizeof(int) i think. < 1306688903 281695 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, where did we get k from? < 1306688926 314333 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: oh wait, i meant that d is not a multiple of gcd(a,b). < 1306688930 173860 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :b is obviously 2^W, and a would presumably be m? < 1306688944 481392 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1306688960 781909 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as we don't know j and n, that should be mapped to x and y in the bezout's identity < 1306688968 942065 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, but I don't see how we can know k? < 1306688979 160850 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, if we are doing C code, why do we want to know n? < 1306688983 788373 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1306689005 622982 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymia: well then you need bigger integer types. < 1306689026 362374 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the extended euclidean algorithm is (i believe) prone to such overflows < 1306689048 544235 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, if d is not a multiple of gcd(a,b) then there exists no solution. it means the infinite loop in our case. < 1306689059 136616 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, well how do we learn k and then, how do we apply the results? < 1306689061 28499 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise we can run the extended euclidean algorithm to find out x and y < 1306689073 544613 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: what k do you mean? < 1306689080 921321 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : the equation is equivalent to: j * m - n * 2^W = k. < 1306689083 864091 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, the k in there < 1306689095 255993 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :you said we need to know a,b,d. d maps to k < 1306689136 156975 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, and we get j and n using extended euclidean < 1306689157 336322 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :And how do those map to C code? < 1306689157 688069 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but note that j and n is not unique < 1306689159 448207 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, that still doesn't answer how we get k to begin with! < 1306689167 890631 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, which is what I'm not understanding < 1306689203 964571 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :I kinda of get what's being said. < 1306689208 950175 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: ah, i'm using the example code like this: for (i=0, j=0; i!=k; i+=m, k++); < 1306689212 732156 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1306689215 46523 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, I do believe k would be m[0] < 1306689219 576676 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :But.. I'm not sure. < 1306689221 84453 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for (i=0, j=0; i!=k; i+=m, j++); < 1306689227 895496 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, how do you get k from while (m[0]) { m[0] += 3; m[1] -= 1; } < 1306689235 968931 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets take it from that level < 1306689249 715417 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, if I have the k written out in the for loop it is obviously there. < 1306689254 504025 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :but given the while loop? < 1306689282 75179 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: then the loop variable here is m[0], and since every other variables increase/decrease in constant value it qualifies for this optimization < 1306689287 857576 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, if I understand you. < 1306689309 147220 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is basically a fancy way to compute how fast m[0] will reach 0, and if it will. < 1306689311 204956 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now pop out the loop variable then we have: for (; m[0]; m[0] += 3) m[1] -= 1; < 1306689315 696123 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, eh. is k = 0? as in when m[0] reaches 0? Or does it have some other value? < 1306689317 443746 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymia: yes. < 1306689332 521249 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: ah, i have to explain that bit... < 1306689343 374969 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, yes I get stuck on that step indeed < 1306689350 497858 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, actually for brainfuck code the condition will be only m[0] != 0 (i.e. m[0]) < 1306689356 405431 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we don't know the prior value of m[0] here < 1306689366 706561 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so let's say the prior value were x. < 1306689368 255981 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed, if we know the prior value we could do this easily < 1306689373 955820 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, right. < 1306689379 177180 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then m[0] = x; for (; m[0]; m[0] += 3) m[1] -= 1;. < 1306689384 167725 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1306689388 130278 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes perfect sense < 1306689404 440667 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: got it? :p < 1306689453 174040 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1306689457 519815 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I see what's being said. < 1306689474 163002 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, now introduce a fresh variable i for the loop: i = m[0]; for (; i; i += 3) m[1] -= 1; m[0] = i; < 1306689514 618248 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, doesn't map to a loop like for (i=0, j=0; i!=k; i+=m, j++); for me. Rather it looks like for (i=x; i!=0; i+=3). Hrrm. Which you could turn around so that you have for (i=0; i!=x; i-=3 though). Is that what you are doing? < 1306689524 752512 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or hm < 1306689546 982757 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we offset i by the prior value of m[0], then we have: for (i=0; i != -m[0]; i += 3) m[1] -= 1; < 1306689554 45177 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1306689555 811544 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes indeed < 1306689570 70741 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of course we should adjust m[0] accordingly, but that is not a point) < 1306689586 75519 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, now it starts to look similar to the for loop above < 1306689594 590075 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the number of iterations of that for loop were j, then the code simply reduces to m[1] -= j;. < 1306689604 270133 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, so k here is -m[0] where m[0] is the value prior to adjusting? < 1306689609 471018 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1306689620 417102 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1306689628 226918 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, now it makes a lot more sense < 1306689640 98581 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in practice, the bezout's identity has multiple solutions < 1306689646 384227 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, and then when we have x,y from the identity... How do we use them? < 1306689651 131908 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we want j to be a smallest positive integer < 1306689674 84671 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: we have two cases here: < 1306689719 891536 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay? < 1306689727 81734 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the increment m and the exit value k is not a coprime to each other, then the loop will end more quickly < 1306689753 516217 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1306689776 511182 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a simple example: if k = 6 and m = 2, then the (adjusted) j should be 3, but the bezout's identity will give 6 < 1306689787 954228 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1306689804 276130 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we need some scaling for the cases when m and k is not a coprime to each other < 1306689804 391625 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, so how do we reduce it as much as we can? < 1306689824 505366 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the detailed procedure is in the source code of esotope-bfc. ;) < 1306689829 899438 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1306689854 66381 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, anyway aren't we doing this to get rid of the loop entirely? Turning it into an expression < 1306689854 462728 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the meaning of the comment should be clear now < 1306689871 878521 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: once you know the number of iterations, that should be simple. < 1306689876 864660 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, hm true < 1306689928 212925 :Slereah_!~Slereah@ANantes-259-1-62-249.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1306689929 997759 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrrm. *reads code* < 1306689941 460251 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, the comment under "elif flag:"? < 1306689944 770529 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :in simpleloop < 1306689963 384298 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1306689964 662073 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :now what is the flag variable in there *looks* < 1306690000 777587 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, is mode the type of loop somehow? < 1306690007 839746 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1306690027 765357 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1306690028 469600 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the loop variable changes non-linearly in the loop (for example) then it cannot be converted in this way < 1306690039 724242 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it simply gave up < 1306690042 115535 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :give* < 1306690048 754498 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1306690049 230083 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gives* < 1306690075 292875 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi QUIT : < 1306690076 184724 :Slereah!~Slereah@ANantes-259-1-62-249.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1306690122 66489 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, what if we have something like while (p[0]) { p[0]+=p[2]; p[1]+=5; } or so? Where we p[2] is not changed inside the loop but we don't know the value of it < 1306690163 341166 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the constant propagation cannot convert c[2] to a constant, then it also gives up. < 1306690168 886353 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1306690176 243472 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is very specific optimization for brainfuck codes ;) < 1306690196 243927 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though it has other uses than brainfuck, so LLVM implements it) < 1306690214 513807 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, not sure if your compiler is smart enough to optimise something like [->+>+<<]>[-<+>] into a copy (plus a set 0 of the temp cell). < 1306690254 691856 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that will be optimized out. < 1306690256 412392 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you get p[1]=p[0]; p[2]=p[0]; p[0]=0; p[0]=p[1]; ? < 1306690274 605167 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, I mean will you eliminate the pointless writes to p[0] completely < 1306690296 997906 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well that missed out the setting of p[1] to 0 < 1306690298 185670 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: that is done separately (in the removedead pass), though it is somewhat limited. < 1306690299 418864 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1306690310 275938 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will work nevertheless for that code < 1306690341 964434 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, right < 1306690382 602722 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, iirc that was one of the things my compiler managed slightly better than your. Expression propagation and constant folding. Plus removed dead quite quite well. < 1306690403 117897 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, your loop optimisations easily beat it however. Overall they are far more effective < 1306690434 398085 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the difficulty with propagation and dead code elimination was the motivation for SSA-based IL. < 1306690463 916435 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, yes true, it wasn't fun to do the dead code one. I ended up walking backwards through the code sometimes iirc < 1306690477 118068 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or changing direction a lot < 1306690497 149303 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite a pain, indeed < 1306690512 83550 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, at least that was easy with my implementation. As a tail recursive function with an input cons style list and an output cons style accumulator list < 1306690522 256368 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :reversing was just switching which I took elements from < 1306690530 330011 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course I needed to reverse at the end < 1306690538 52193 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and to turn loops right way around < 1306690539 913156 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :but meh < 1306690558 910250 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :idiomatic style for erlang < 1306690571 904525 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, and it made merging and swapping instruction pairs easy < 1306690605 209363 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, do you use mutable data structures in your ocaml code? < 1306690610 245838 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not yet. < 1306690612 904920 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1306690634 674050 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i won't use mutable data structures in the global IL < 1306690644 182519 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, I found map less than useful for bf optimisation. Since there might not be an 1:1 map of number of elements < 1306690658 165312 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: but how about flatten after map? < 1306690727 839802 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, hm. Possible certainly. Doing a tail recursive function with accumulator list in erlang is easy though. What with the pattern matching < 1306690731 26462 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :you get stuff like: < 1306690805 69722 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :optimise([{set,Offset,Value}|T], [{set,Offset,Value2}|T2]) -> optimise(T, [{set,Offset,Value+Value2}|T2]) < 1306690825 53695 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not quite that, but the principle anyway < 1306690879 252959 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, I think I would prefer to put it in the list to process rather than the accumulator. That way I could possibly optimise it with some other prior instruction in the same pass < 1306690884 958454 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't matter for this simple case < 1306690887 410576 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, pattern matching is a freaking godsend for optimisation. < 1306690895 831128 :evincar!~chatzilla@pool-64-222-158-121.man.east.myfairpoint.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1306690897 992692 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yep. < 1306690900 622701 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right. < 1306690917 525208 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, that Prolog? < 1306690923 78141 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, in haskell you would need a guard there. Like Offset1 == Offset2 < 1306690927 22573 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, erlang < 1306690929 85630 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. I should probably start putting some more peephole optimisations in here. Just for kicks, y'know? < 1306690936 575822 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, yes they *do* have similar syntax. I know < 1306690939 990498 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yeah, sadly. Still a hell of a lot better than other languages. < 1306690958 839879 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, indeed. < 1306690989 17147 :evincar!~chatzilla@pool-64-222-158-121.man.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what are we working on? < 1306691011 744465 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, the main pain in erlang was calculating modulo 256 < 1306691026 315995 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: lol < 1306691031 149881 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, I had a special cleanup pass that did modulo 256 on every value :) < 1306691031 841216 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there any library for that? < 1306691040 899091 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, oh and -1 I represented as 254 < 1306691049 276389 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise it wouldn't work with that simple cleanup pass < 1306691080 104628 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, nope. Not easily done in erlang's type system. < 1306691106 302709 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, you could pack it into a binary and unpack it I guess < 1306691132 86486 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like: <> = <> < 1306691133 637545 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh. < 1306691145 784023 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot exact syntax, haven't been coding much erlang recently < 1306691157 755739 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, anyway arithmetics are bignum in erlang. < 1306691173 810146 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, and adding your integer type would be highly non-trivial. < 1306691200 584239 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrrrm. Actually, how hard could a constant propogation pass *be*, anyways? < 1306691202 475061 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, there are no typeclasses and so on < 1306691222 487917 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1306691225 454626 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I did better, expression propagation. Quite useful. < 1306691233 544200 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Oh? Hmm. < 1306691255 159579 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well yes, it handled neatly cases like [->+>+<<]>[-<+>] < 1306691255 231374 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1306691282 674931 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spiffy. < 1306691292 518491 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, if you just optimise set offset to offset there, then it is easy to get rid of the dead copy p[0]=p[0] < 1306691302 236526 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is what you will get after expression propagation < 1306691303 929334 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1306691311 921984 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming a previous pass eliminated the dead p[0]=0 store < 1306691368 381080 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, besides if you use the earliest values you can (right, this can be a pessimation in some cases, the opposite of CSE) you can remove a lot more dead stores easily. < 1306691377 253145 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :which turns out to give a better overall result < 1306691383 181634 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least for the programs I tested on < 1306691394 595302 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used lostking and mandelbrot mainly for testing < 1306691442 374299 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, btw I noticed you did something more than I did... < 1306691444 77274 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :while (p[7] != 0) p -= 9; < 1306691450 857443 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, how did you generate stuff like that heh < 1306691471 487976 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine would have done something like p+=7; while(p[0] != 0) p -= ... < 1306691487 575387 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it hit an unbalanced loop < 1306691586 326069 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: pointer propagation works for SeekMemory (i think it is?) too. < 1306691619 499591 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, you manage for other unbalanced loops too < 1306691622 289264 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, p += 7; while (p[0] != 0) p -= 9; p -= 7; is equivalent to while (p[7] != 0) p -= 9;. < 1306691641 766440 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :since we are hitting the same memory cell in this case < 1306691656 258669 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fixed offset here can be eliminated. < 1306691660 877540 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, anyway. I don't have the code for mine on this computer. And I don't think it is online anywhere. Besides I hit a wall, I would need to majorly restructure the internal representation. As I found out towards the end of the development. < 1306691703 162519 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, hm but how do you manage that for nested unbalanced loops. That seems trickier < 1306691705 87510 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet you do it < 1306691724 932977 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example? < 1306691734 762131 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, this is from the start of a huge loop: http://sprunge.us/gIjg < 1306691743 569684 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think this propagation can be applied recursively (without any harm) < 1306691763 491101 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, I managed to do pointer propagation in mine quite easily. < 1306691784 984799 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Admittedly*, without the help of oerjan it took 2 minutes to execute on LostKng. :P < 1306691804 650656 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, I see one thing you didn't do was turn while loops into do while when you know that the loop value was non-zero. This can be applied to unbalanced loops too. GCC generates smaller code for it on -O2 with the programs I tested. < 1306691828 844461 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example: p += 3; while (p[0] != 0) { ... p += 5; while (p[0] != 0) { ... p += 1; } ... } should be while (p[3] != 0) { ... while (p[8] != 0) { ... p += 1; } ... p += 5; } p += 3; < 1306691836 442103 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, pointer propagation across unbalanced loops I completely missed out on. < 1306691846 330859 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, also where is your? < 1306691848 440730 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that the whole effect of the loop body to the pointer moves to the end of the loop < 1306691863 589679 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yes, it cannot move it out of the loop yet) < 1306691870 693980 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Lemme pastebin. < 1306691877 447809 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, which language is it in? < 1306691882 242945 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/FAQF < 1306691883 707897 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell. < 1306691907 807629 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, that parser would be smaller with parsec. I tried recently :P < 1306691920 987609 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh. It's already freaking tiny. < 1306691972 719694 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1306692021 21556 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, why the !Int in the type? < 1306692034 508896 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot what the ! does < 1306692042 20793 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: That makes the fields strict. < 1306692053 62289 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found it made the compiler use 10M less RAM and execute a bit faster. < 1306692057 20727 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh heh < 1306692075 112288 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, is this a bignum brainfuck= < 1306692082 741716 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :once having seen a Migol 11's I/O system, i cannot resist from implementing my own EXE (finally!) < 1306692085 937604 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or why int for adding values < 1306692090 593498 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it's 8 bit... < 1306692095 652985 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, why not Word8 then < 1306692101 557648 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :from Data.Word < 1306692114 235469 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, so. < 1306692119 223966 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're doing p++ etc, right? < 1306692123 630127 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it *could* actually be that way for some of it. < 1306692135 645034 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that's more optimal. < 1306692137 283972 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymia: yes, but most of them can be propagated < 1306692154 289022 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, it just seemed more logical to skip having to think of applying the modulo yourself to me < 1306692177 326396 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: ... *I'm not*. < 1306692184 234607 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least, not yet. < 1306692192 264748 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, where does it ensure that 255+1 = 0 then? < 1306692199 422051 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the output code. < 1306692202 473213 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1306692213 585781 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my¸ asm < 1306692223 524018 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The x86 does modular arithmetic. :) < 1306692235 406144 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it produces some pretty tiny output. < 1306692283 69570 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I kind of prefer producing C. Because then the C compiler can do some further optimisation for you < 1306692328 744152 :CakeProp1et!~adam@h177.62.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1306692372 628268 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly QUIT :*.net *.split < 1306692372 767416 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory QUIT :*.net *.split < 1306692373 255395 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake QUIT :*.net *.split < 1306692380 551729 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but the C compiler outputs so much bloaty code. < 1306692386 868982 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1306692407 641362 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, really? I found clang works pretty well < 1306692417 446690 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, besides there isn't much bloat you can add. < 1306692450 98099 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, unless you mean stuff like __start. In which case I think you are overly silly < 1306692456 314176 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :err _start* < 1306692470 433524 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :My LostKng is 482,800 bytes. < 1306692541 215593 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, let me check how large file clang generates < 1306692546 260397 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :using -O1, may take a while < 1306692562 119957 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is from esotope output < 1306692603 177071 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, clang is not fast here < 1306692605 68566 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And keep in mind, my output has no dependencies other than a Linux kernel. < 1306692611 606249 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1306692639 494476 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, so it won't run on anything but linux < 1306692642 589063 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, fail :P < 1306692664 828710 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, if it doesn't run on, say, OpenBSD/SPARC what is the point of it? < 1306692664 901289 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(indeed, with how I'm doing things, it *can't* even realistically call into C. I'm using the freaking stack pointer!) < 1306692678 527601 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1306692680 555923 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, wait what are you using the stack pointer for? < 1306692688 390443 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :As a general-purpose register. < 1306692695 691977 :evincar!~chatzilla@pool-64-222-158-121.man.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Madness. < 1306692713 24869 :evincar!~chatzilla@pool-64-222-158-121.man.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Alternatively, clever. < 1306692724 881588 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: The only memory I access is the Brainfuck array. < 1306692726 440639 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, why do you need that? You don't optimise try to put as much data in registers as possible do you? < 1306692734 642758 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everything else is in the registers. < 1306692749 819708 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well good thing I used ulimit to limit clang to 400 MB RAM: terminate called after throwing an instance of 'std::bad_alloc' < 1306692771 833974 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :700 works fine for -O0 < 1306692785 476844 :evincar!~chatzilla@pool-64-222-158-121.man.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somehow this reminds me of a totally misguided project I made the (good?) decision of never starting... < 1306692790 115379 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets try that for -O1 < 1306692798 235909 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar, what project? < 1306692832 631113 :evincar!~chatzilla@pool-64-222-158-121.man.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: A C-to-BF compiler, with as limited extensions as possible. Call it a BF-based VM. < 1306692853 187027 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar, ais wrote the beginnings of a gcc backend generating bf < 1306692862 666982 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think he finished the bfasm -> bf bit < 1306692887 735264 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: The code to access the system calls, sadly, ends up clobbering eax, ebx, and edx. So the only registers I have for my own use without some painful work in the code generator is ecx, ebp, and esp. < 1306692893 654641 :evincar!~chatzilla@pool-64-222-158-121.man.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Cool, I'll ask him about it sometime. < 1306692931 171603 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what about %r10? < 1306692937 93886 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: *x86*. < 1306692939 348454 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not x86_64. < 1306692939 718361 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1306692942 146083 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, right < 1306692954 795338 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, anyway, why not just push those registers on the stack? < 1306692964 54226 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Memory access! < 1306692968 286166 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1306692971 91933 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only access the Brainfuck stack. < 1306692974 504161 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, array. < 1306693005 826263 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, hm. I presume you optimise constant output ? < 1306693018 766627 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would require constant propagation! < 1306693028 704770 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh true < 1306693047 729712 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I'm just saying that I think you will need using the stack on x86_32 if you are going to call write < 1306693054 654268 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless I miscounted the registers < 1306693062 701040 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm already calling write. < 1306693069 31001 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :421K LostKng.clang < 1306693072 675387 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you think the system call to do output is? < 1306693075 984837 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, how large did you say your were? < 1306693084 115834 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well hm good point < 1306693089 805655 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh. It's 472k. < 1306693098 419861 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Without any non-peephole optimisations. < 1306693100 689434 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, so clang did a better job than you < 1306693110 472590 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, clang + esotope-bfc < 1306693123 366047 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would you care to add the libc into that? < 1306693135 127529 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well I need to strip it too I think < 1306693138 797464 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would you care to add the libc into that? < 1306693139 971841 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has a symbol table < 1306693167 90417 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, why? That cost is insignificant since it is shared by all the binaries using libc on my system < 1306693168 44240 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :All 1.4M of it? < 1306693208 23473 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That ain't insignificant, that's a gigantic runtime you're relying on. < 1306693211 158877 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :1,5M /lib/libc-2.11.1.so < 1306693212 552305 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :actuallyt < 1306693222 233428 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if you do have the nice excuse that your system already has it in RAM. < 1306693232 68124 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, for the disk cost it will be split on every binary linking to it < 1306693234 594705 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :in /usr/bin < 1306693242 52272 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That ain't insignificant, that's a gigantic runtime you're relying on. < 1306693243 603169 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if you do have the nice excuse that your system already has it in RAM. < 1306693262 285579 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: if it does matter then why not replacing GETC, PUTC and PUTS macro with a syscall-only version? < 1306693263 278778 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh ram cost? yes it is in ram already. You rely on the kernel. < 1306693279 537416 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, now, why don't you do this freestanding < 1306693289 363764 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, the kernel is a gigantic runtime you are relying on < 1306693291 570798 :evincar!~chatzilla@pool-64-222-158-121.man.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love how context can make libc "gigantic". < 1306693291 734650 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir: I did; it's 532k. < 1306693299 862447 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : pikhq, the kernel is a gigantic runtime you are relying on < 1306693350 822081 :evincar!~chatzilla@pool-64-222-158-121.man.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: s/libc/the kernel/ < 1306693366 381911 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar, where < 1306693384 655367 :evincar!~chatzilla@pool-64-222-158-121.man.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I love how context can make libc "gigantic". < 1306693389 543549 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, really, since it is dynamically linked, it is like the the kernel. Either you count both into the cost or you count neither. Nothing else makes sense from your viewpoint < 1306693405 306907 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar, well yes and? The kernel is larger than libc for me < 1306693412 400132 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Fuck you and your noise. < 1306693423 573990 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, how the hell do you get the kernel larger than libc? < 1306693429 433393 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :3,9M /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.32-31-generic < 1306693434 121350 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.O < 1306693435 336209 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the static compressed part < 1306693439 235429 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's... Freakish. < 1306693441 642851 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, this is ubuntu stock kernel < 1306693446 17408 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, so most stuff is modules < 1306693450 162043 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :which should be added to that < 1306693454 756130 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What the *hell*. < 1306693454 828785 :evincar!~chatzilla@pool-64-222-158-121.man.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: That depends. But isn't it kind of silly to count what's essentially a platform dependency? < 1306693474 718629 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, now, my desktop kernel with exactly the stuff I need compiled into it is 2.5 MB. < 1306693479 503182 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what ubuntu does < 1306693499 508209 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, anyway I conclude your program is thus 472k+3.9 MB at least :P < 1306693503 89439 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, same logic as you used < 1306693516 148192 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, Even if you do have the nice excuse that your system already has it in RAM. (like, it being booted) < 1306693540 826374 :evincar!~chatzilla@pool-64-222-158-121.man.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Now you're just being pedantic for the fun of it. < 1306693566 314313 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar, yes because pikhq is having an unreasonable opinion about dynamic linking here < 1306693581 661556 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar, I'm just trying to apply it consistently < 1306693630 96846 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, anyway do it freestanding. I'm sure you can get it down to less than 1.5 MB still. But do it. If you include libc you should include the kernel < 1306693634 213504 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :both are *shared* costs < 1306693652 187013 :evincar!~chatzilla@pool-64-222-158-121.man.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: You're applying reducto ad absurdum. :P < 1306693653 129860 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is one instance of both on my system < 1306693670 553066 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar, good you know the name. < 1306693687 411109 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, why are you not replying btw? < 1306693730 505578 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't wish to continue the discussion you should probably admit defeat instead of burying your head in the sand (which is what this seems like) < 1306693805 727112 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar, few things annoy me as much as when people just stop talking instead of admitting defeat or continuing to argue. I really hate that way to get out of a discussion. < 1306693816 299915 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Ping reply from pikhq: 1.13 second(s) < 1306693820 484484 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so not disconnected either < 1306693832 533437 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not marked /away < 1306693856 721413 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well, I hope you can explain why you shouldn't count the kernel if you count libc < 1306693868 787963 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :both are shared, single-instance-per-system < 1306693887 47737 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :both are relatively large. < 1306693893 614009 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, so tell me. < 1306693901 620305 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :IRC is not mandatory, you know. < 1306693932 392575 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm busy trying to get the absolute tiniest kernel that can run this. < 1306693933 418063 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1306693958 673737 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :342kB. < 1306693962 206587 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, that is no answer, but really. Why should you include shared system resources. < 1306693980 377838 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ ps aux | wc -l < 1306693980 623212 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :185 < 1306693981 832569 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Because ,,|, < 1306693990 328904 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 184 (excluding header line) < 1306693994 654632 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, because what? < 1306694010 967814 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, sorry, that's a bit of an Americanism. "Because fuck you". < 1306694029 923245 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I don't see how that is relevant to this < 1306694040 537428 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :4.4M in Ubuntu's /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.38-8-generic, for the record. < 1306694051 526394 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Jeeze that's absurd*. < 1306694053 592888 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, anyway libc.so is about 8 kb per process on my system. < 1306694071 121932 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Let's see what a maximal build here does... < 1306694087 131582 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the associated initrd is 9.2M. < 1306694102 965325 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The kernel does keep on growing in general. < 1306694103 766739 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, anyway if you care about ram as opposed to disk space you should not count the size of the compressed kernel image. < 1306694112 349900 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Allyesconfig, away! < 1306694115 69422 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, instead you should count how much memory the kernel uses < 1306694124 70633 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Maybe you should shut up. < 1306694127 704649 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :We get it. < 1306694131 520277 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, and if you care about disk then you should split it on number of ELF binaries in /bin /usr/bin and so on < 1306694138 43478 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you're going to talk about this for two more months. < 1306694140 99389 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case the value will be even tinier < 1306694151 662780 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you should shut up. < 1306694172 57495 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I don't take well to that sort of argument. I'm trying to approach this rationally < 1306694191 293482 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Your argument is falling on deaf ears, because I don't care*. < 1306694198 103869 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, you have not given me a good reason why you would not count shared resources across all processes < 1306694228 11438 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because *I simply had the idea of having this output assembly that didn't depend on libc*. < 1306694231 120301 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*That's it*. < 1306694234 749928 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*There is nothing more to it*. < 1306694238 238755 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Stop it*. < 1306694259 72235 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, right. That makes sense. But claiming I should include libc size in the C code did not make sense. < 1306694281 348104 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yes indeed it grows hm < 1306694300 547384 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was being flippant. And you reacted by... Reductio ad absurdum. < 1306694317 242668 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reductio ad absurdum on an absurd statement is, of course, going to reduce to absurdity easily. < 1306694327 384394 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I was not aware you didn't mean what you said < 1306694338 440582 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, possibly I should apply Poe's law on this < 1306694349 640620 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyways, now I'm curious, what does an allyesconfig on Linux result in, anyways? < 1306694359 369568 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, almost everything yes < 1306694362 58628 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: 1.9M+2.2M is the kernel+initrd size for the custom config on iris.zem.fi, that's not *so* huge. It almost fits on a floppy. < 1306694377 60941 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or two floppies, anyway. < 1306694390 887972 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's a supported setup. < 1306694404 15298 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, there are some stuff that can't be yes at the same time, and there is some weirdness for that super-experimental section < 1306694409 146364 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :but apart from that, everything < 1306694417 294054 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yes, just wondering what the binary size is. < 1306694422 442657 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: You could probably make that better by using xz compression on the kernel. < 1306694444 545054 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm < 1306694458 483188 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the initrd. < 1306694482 793945 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yes my desktop kernel is quite large. I include everything I use. And I don't use initramfs. Only things that are modules are those I use infrequently < 1306694491 96136 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :like code for the lego rcx usb thingy < 1306694495 437011 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the IR tower) < 1306694501 398801 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have that as a module iirc < 1306694521 127946 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means the kernel is large but lsmod is short. < 1306694534 529963 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ lsmod | wc -l < 1306694534 602796 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :143 < 1306694538 691509 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not like that on ubuntu heh < 1306694542 232097 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :iris is a headless box anyway, not too many (hardware) drivers involved. < 1306694563 523746 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, nvidia.ko was something like 9 MB last I looked < 1306694567 414834 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :no clue how they managed that < 1306694580 812954 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Damn. < 1306694583 803812 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Vorpal is the reason you don't use initramfs just your weird brand of... Vorpidity, or is it something else? < 1306694634 25519 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :13M /lib/modules/2.6.38-8-generic/updates/dkms/nvidia-current.ko < 1306694653 209879 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's one big module. < 1306694664 594877 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, that it is pointless for the desktop setup. There is no need. And there is that I have no clue how to make one for my custom kernel. I mean, I know there is mkinitcpio or whatever the tool is, but I assume you have to decide what to put on it < 1306694667 869567 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :simpler to just skip it < 1306694685 615597 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, on my laptop I wouldn't get away with that, encrypted root < 1306694691 579216 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus I use stock kernel on it < 1306694694 444780 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :easier < 1306694818 994538 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, who are working on the brainfuck compiler (for the static subset, of course)? < 1306694821 934342 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wiat < 1306694823 672157 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :befunge* < 1306694841 260224 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, fizzie is/was working on a JIT compiler < 1306694843 707600 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a "the" compiler, or just in general? < 1306694859 264102 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also have a static ahead-of-time compiler for a subset. It's quite crummy. < 1306694861 562275 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i meant "a". < 1306694862 371138 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, and the static subset is not TC I think. If you can't write to funge space... < 1306694887 106835 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, oh and x makes it hard to do any sort of compiling < 1306694887 648339 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The static version does p/g, it just doesn't let those modify the code. < 1306694890 443230 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: given Befunge-93, it is already not TC even you can write to funge space < 1306694892 30131 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can after all jump everywhere < 1306694901 508820 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, oh 93, I assumed 98 since you didn't say otherwise < 1306694919 153003 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't do x with non-constant arguments at all; and the handling of non-constant j is really ad-hoc. < 1306694926 497288 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i never thought of a static compiler for Funge-98 ;) < 1306694928 739367 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, same as if someone says C I assume non-draft last version (C99) unless otherwise specified < 1306694937 543874 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, well right < 1306694951 904473 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, and if someone says python I assume python 3 :P < 1306694963 19925 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i think Funge-98 is too complex that any statically-compilable subset is tiny < 1306694979 581636 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, hm larger than 93s subset at least. < 1306694980 723046 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can have a statically-compilable subset of programs, as opposed to the language. < 1306695000 612950 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, anyway such a subset is really cheating < 1306695049 862530 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you could do befunge 98 without x or self modification quite well I think < 1306695051 936167 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: a subset of all possible programs in given language can be regarded as a semantic restriction to that language, which can be another language < 1306695058 544200 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway. < 1306695082 49776 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you could do x with threaded code < 1306695088 428310 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1306695094 866585 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The one I have for example supports programs that involve a not-easily-constant-foldable j only when that the j is directly followed by N direction-changing commands (like 'v') and you never hit that j with arguments that would jump outside them. < 1306695120 774780 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(So you can do jump tables with it.) < 1306695130 890575 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's been written to be able to run fungot. < 1306695133 212325 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, a jumptable for all targets it could hit would work fine, then inserting labels there < 1306695158 732190 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway self modification is common in befunge, for loop conditions and so on < 1306695179 100122 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Common, schmommon; I don't really do much of it. < 1306695191 621256 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, fungot does self modification. it loads code in < 1306695199 906026 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but that's the only case. < 1306695200 556557 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: how do you determine that "p" won't modify the code? does it just store the funge space (not related to the code anymore)? < 1306695225 532920 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir: Yes, it just modifies the data, not the code. < 1306695270 529086 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I guess a better way to say it would've been "supports p/g, they just don't modify the code even when they should". < 1306695271 825728 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, do you trace code or do you just compile it to an array? < 1306695273 761720 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can it reject the program that is statically compilable, or does it leave the rejection in the runtime? < 1306695309 977746 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you do the former then i think it is close to the best possible we can do < 1306695310 860255 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, you can't possibly do the former. And I doubt it does the latter < 1306695322 998720 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well. < 1306695333 493221 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, you could do the former if you insert a "not" however < 1306695334 284839 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1306695339 564368 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but not very well) < 1306695344 435820 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't try to figure out "illegal" uses of p, no. < 1306695359 970604 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: ...awwwwww yes i forgot "not". < 1306695384 555179 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, still it would be hard and probably miss out on several valid programs < 1306695393 6059 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be exact, i wanted to add a "befunge-93-static" IL in esotope < 1306695407 902340 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, I find the static subset to be cheating, but that is just me < 1306695413 479390 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Still* building the allyesconfig. < 1306695418 579347 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, and I care nothing for 93 < 1306695425 874507 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :98 or nothing < 1306695426 813488 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally a befunge-like language cannot be translated to other languages (even to itself) < 1306695436 327797 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The JIT compiler spends quite a lot of effort in worrying about the potential effects of 'p', since a single p can invalidate quite a lot of stuff by e.g. changing the wrapping, or inserting a ; in the middle of a previously jumped-over ;...; jump. < 1306695438 58887 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, quite < 1306695441 359362 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but once we can statically analyze the program, it can be translated to others < 1306695456 168564 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i wanted to know the state of art < 1306695518 897946 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, I think that 93-static is 1) cheating 2) uninteresting because it is a boring subset of befunge93 3) uninteresting because it is befunge93, not befunge98 < 1306695523 458722 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :but *shrug* < 1306695570 323615 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, I'd suggest compiling to embedded interpreter, which is also boring. < 1306695580 20425 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :JITTing it is however quite interesting < 1306695581 364030 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that is a lot boring than the static analysis. < 1306695607 145999 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, well okay that is marginally interesting. But I doubt it will give useful results for 93 < 1306695608 637358 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Threaded compilation of Funge-93 is so much better, anyways. :P < 1306695622 817974 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, 93 code tends to use every trick it can to fit into the small space < 1306695633 304607 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: but it's no use for conveting befunge-93 code to other esolangs. :p < 1306695634 843990 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, for 98 code it would probably be easier to follow < 1306695657 603956 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, surely you can do threaded code interpreters in other esolangs < 1306695660 6411 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir: Well, no, it's hardly even an interpretation technique. < 1306695664 171982 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :suboptimally yes < 1306695675 502052 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: right, it is an art. < 1306695678 447630 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :More of a very trivial JIT. < 1306695686 168228 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, hm? < 1306695688 111854 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you seen mtve's self-interpreter? < 1306695699 689398 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Threaded code interpreting can be viewed as a special case of JITing. < 1306695702 113522 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, maybe. I tend to forget names < 1306695713 402331 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh true < 1306695718 204669 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The tracing of Funge-98 code is already quite tricky to do. You can constant-fold-as-you-go, but then if you hit the same sequence of code from some other branch the constant-folding is no longer necessarily valid; and for each basic block for best possible results you'd have to consider all possible stack states you can have when hitting it. < 1306695724 365705 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, except it can't deal with selfmodification. < 1306695724 642983 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :an interpreter packed in 6x80 space. < 1306695737 895477 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Sure it can. My Funge-93 interpreter does. < 1306695749 770223 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, right, I seem some 25x4 ones though. Or was it 5x25 < 1306695753 942090 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well vertically anyway < 1306695773 985251 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, how? Is it threaded code? < 1306695793 643294 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just modify the threading. < 1306695802 445696 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :...i think it has been loooong time after i stopped to follow the befunge scene ;) < 1306695804 919011 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ah, an array that maps to functions? < 1306695807 705535 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1306695810 454038 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :function pointers < 1306695817 86302 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goto labels. :p < 1306695818 157546 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Label pointers, actually. < 1306695830 74669 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The GCC-specific way of doing it. < 1306695832 452450 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, right, same idea anyway < 1306695840 310642 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes that works. < 1306695849 84836 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Not GCC-specific... It also works on recent Clang. < 1306695852 976281 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, do you use different ones for different directions? < 1306695854 92909 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mooz's implementation of that did macrology to do computed-gotos on GCC, separate functions and function pointers on elsewhere. < 1306695863 83359 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: No, I have an overcomplicated step routine. < 1306695874 42229 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I thought llvm ir didn't handle taking address of a label? < 1306695880 955215 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ah < 1306695893 254265 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, macrology? < 1306695894 581793 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: They made a point of getting computed goto to work. < 1306695912 118582 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, nice work < 1306695913 518330 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :word* < 1306695936 584195 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, in the llvm ir or by frontend magic? < 1306695945 938497 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno. < 1306695990 588370 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to recall that there was computed-goto support in some clang version quite a while ago, but it was badly broken. < 1306696060 966578 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm can you do continuations with it? < 1306696082 158716 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or I guess it doesn't allow call outside the function < 1306696106 678750 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(like for gcc) < 1306696110 143764 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :They broke it in 2.7, and fixed immediately after. < 1306696150 400644 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1306696181 367168 :Aune!~arne@piggelin.lysator.liu.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1306696193 323493 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The LLVM assembly was indeed quite strict when it comes to jumps; should perhaps check what it translates a simple example to. < 1306696236 494533 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1306696241 792303 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, *damn*. < 1306696249 811651 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :33 megabytes for allyesconfig. < 1306696258 648936 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh my god the YouTube transcription thing is hilarious. < 1306696262 904644 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least the jumps need to statically know where all they can lead; but, well, since it's function-internal, maybe it just includes all labels that have their addresses taken of anywhere in the function. < 1306696286 463571 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, hah < 1306696293 386980 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I used it on one of those Stanford machine learning lectures (while waiting for someone to fetch a laptop with audio support) that I was showing to students. It's really the bee's knees. < 1306696306 923892 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What was it like? < 1306696336 511644 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : Oh my god the YouTube transcription thing is hilarious. <-- what, where? < 1306696347 753863 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It transcribed "conch" as "crotch" or "cock" (it was pronounced two different ways in the video; long story.) < 1306696361 168792 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, I mean where do I find it < 1306696363 878446 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It's been in YouTube for ages; how are you only now hearing about it? < 1306696375 276029 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I use youtube-dl, not flash < 1306696377 519360 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe that is why < 1306696398 880728 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It's also been discussed on-channel several times, and I think even once when you mentioned your youtube-dl use in the context, I think. :p < 1306696414 398460 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, possibly. I don't have perfect memory < 1306696416 733338 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBtuYU-HfUg has some real gems in the auto-transcribed captions. < 1306696418 619068 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlike you < 1306696438 325508 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I'm only something like 60% confident on the above factoid, so... < 1306696455 312671 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs_PwFWuwJs was the one I tried it on. < 1306696473 891206 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: There are some rather boring long periods; but some quite funny parts too. < 1306696514 962915 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The language model they have isn't really trained for speaking about the EM algorithm for mixture-of-Gaussian models. < 1306696542 469174 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it did Gaussian -> calcium quite a few times. < 1306696557 34975 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"forfeiting a mixture of calcium smallville right and so" (real quote) < 1306696698 455292 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :What he really said was "for fitting a mixture of Gaussians model... right, and so --" < 1306696707 177252 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's not really too far of; but still. < 1306696734 123393 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1306696874 745609 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dislike this topic though, because when elliott logreads this bit, he's going to again start trolling me on the futility of speech recognition. < 1306696891 851135 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :He does that? < 1306696962 413999 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it has happened thrice or so now, I guess, so not *too* often. < 1306696972 519366 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you even troll on that? < 1306697053 188992 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1306697055 789165 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :By being all "your life's work is meaningless AH AH AH ready to admit defeat?" all the time. < 1306697066 849257 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Usually I've opted just not to argue, so it is over quite fast. < 1306697073 725834 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, right. < 1306698203 81295 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :come on, it is definitely possible to decode speech. Humans manage most of the time. < 1306698260 978733 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't think human brains have something that can't be emulated on computers except for the complexity < 1306698281 978117 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which would definitely tax a modern computer) < 1306698450 104176 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1306698666 58663 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, well, we'd hope to get something useful done even in this interim period before strong AI is solved. < 1306698718 670149 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And I *could* argue the speech processing field in general does useful things -- it's just that I don't really like arguing that much.) < 1306699201 71375 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1306699211 957591 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, since I'm already so-called "screwed" w.r.t. a logreading elliott, I could also share a thing from the conference: http://p.zem.fi/4r1y < 1306699354 164557 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, same redacted all the way through? < 1306699374 949873 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1306699384 762520 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, anyone I know? < 1306699418 973798 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be what they call "telling". < 1306699464 469094 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :A bit like redacting a .pdf with a black box on top of text without removing what's below. < 1306699473 125781 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except perhaps a milder case. < 1306699492 471216 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh < 1306699499 219919 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't suppose it is really relevant anyway, it's not like he/she/it spoke very much in that bit. < 1306699505 585502 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I didn't ask who it was. Just if it was someone from this channel < 1306699521 667859 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but that would still reveal information. < 1306699529 946845 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I presume it was from irc < 1306699558 558089 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you would not be afraid to reveal that it was someone from elsewhere, thus it is with high probability someone from the channel. < 1306699569 311729 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that much is true. I could've just re-explained, but since I had all that already typed. < 1306699582 84594 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :By "that much" I refer to "from irc". < 1306699598 542250 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it wasn't from this channel though. Was there an IRC channel for the conference? < 1306699616 995435 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Detective Vorpal is on the case. < 1306699623 488356 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, heh < 1306699675 662243 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, anyway that link was highly interesting < 1306699685 403684 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Disregarding whether the person is on this channel or not, I'd at least think I'd act similarly to protect its identity. I did consider actually completely removing those comments. < 1306699705 384314 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No official conference IRC channel, at least that I heard of. < 1306699731 238374 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that's more of a something they do in the hackerying/network-related conferences. < 1306699793 201992 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1306699808 25872 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, are you currently at that conference? < 1306699812 507209 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or back home? < 1306699824 580243 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it ended on Friday; came back yesterday. < 1306699836 968380 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's funny, IEEE has an IRC server: http://ewh.ieee.org/econf/irc.html < 1306699846 279622 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It was one of their conferences.) < 1306699860 394897 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it vaguely reminds me of my work experience, except it was actually cool. < 1306699890 371287 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, what does? The ferrets? < 1306699895 666476 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1306699902 149997 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :really? < 1306699935 187578 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :My work experience was with an uncle who works on BCIs, except their one can sometimes tell which blinking light out of an array of 4 you're staring at. < 1306699958 565461 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, BCI being? < 1306699976 176741 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :brain-computer interface? < 1306699977 672637 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1306699978 746237 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1306699982 864030 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to sleep < 1306699984 998045 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah < 1306699992 429624 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, anyway that is cool < 1306700387 196916 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "ferret-ear to spectrogram" mapping isn't incredibly surprising, since spectrograms are basically what the ear does; the thing on humans that actually got conscious intent expressed in some meaningful way was far more surprising, though. You could easily argue the whole source separation thing would happen on far higher levels, from where it'd be quite nontrivial to map back to a spectrogram. (Assuming you believe the guy, anyway.) < 1306700417 773339 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/argue/assume/ < 1306700484 856965 :cheater__!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-29-100.vodafone-net.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1306700547 667490 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm < 1306700578 551766 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well, aren't there nerves to the ear going in both directions iirc? < 1306700610 123897 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1306700614 207882 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes; there is some amount of tuning-the-sensor-based-on-the-focus going on there. < 1306700619 229623 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still. < 1306700643 48684 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also could tuning the sensor based on the language. Have he tried doing this on music? < 1306700643 121297 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't find the ferret guy from the program; I must've misremembered which session he was in. < 1306700674 892023 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I would be very interested in knowing if it works for music as well as for speech < 1306701114 606546 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately I didn't note down the speaker's name, under the assumption that I could just look it up from the program; and now I can't seem to find it. < 1306701525 42239 :evincar!~chatzilla@pool-64-222-158-121.man.east.myfairpoint.net PART :#esoteric < 1306701817 585375 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm xkcd as of a few days ago that clicking on the first non-italic link not in parenthesis in a wikipedia article would if repeated eventually always take you to "philosophy" < 1306701828 886791 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I done some experiments and so far it seems correct < 1306701840 839180 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Almost always. I have done it and it almost always is, not quite always. < 1306701860 339758 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, I imagine some stub pages might not have any link at all for example < 1306701886 846336 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It is also described in the Wikipedia Department of Fun, and once I found the longest one but it changed and resulting in a loop so someone sent me a message about it) < 1306701900 755763 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even without stub pages it sometimes happens that it doesn't. < 1306701908 227339 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, loops? < 1306701917 408688 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just a different end page? < 1306701955 169872 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Look at my Wikipedia user talk page. < 1306701964 682701 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, what user name? < 1306701998 82130 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zzo38 < 1306702012 977119 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, you could write up a script to test it a bunch. < 1306702021 737189 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Random page, apply procedure. < 1306702037 672215 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymia, not that interested < 1306702210 323199 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they had a links-only SQL dump available if you wanted to do that a whole lot; though I don't have a clue if that contains enough information to follow the "not in parenthesis" rule, probably not. < 1306702248 422959 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what with the dash over most, you'd think they are actively hunting these down: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Get_to_Philosophy#Articles_likely_to_loop_instead_of_going_to_Philosophy < 1306702283 304497 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, you realise that someone already knocked a thing for this together? < 1306702306 719468 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, for automating it? Yes probably. Did I indicate anything else? < 1306702320 479063 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://ryanelmquist.com/cgi-bin/xkcdwiki for example < 1306702355 640981 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is also the generalised version. < 1306702364 743664 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm *really* hoping people aren't editing WP to remove loops. < 1306702365 28257 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, which is? < 1306702375 720759 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, well to me it looks like they do < 1306702378 875478 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, http://xkcd.com/903/ is actually quite amusing. < 1306702386 447929 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, yes < 1306702387 333922 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The caption is utterly unnecessary. < 1306702398 77264 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the Wikipedia pages are way too detailed, it could be a lot more implied. < 1306702403 590739 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the right-hand side conversation is funny. < 1306702408 91379 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, however it works as it is < 1306702429 354464 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes but it's not a very good comic as is, just quite amusing. < 1306702487 516397 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, well there is a comment in one of them suggested "fixed" < 1306702497 694441 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, so... yes it looks like people are removing loops < 1306702498 747607 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :sadly < 1306702519 981780 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fixed probably just means "broken". < 1306702524 966734 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't addquote that, it's not funny. < 1306702558 513759 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, yes they broke the loop < 1306702570 254682 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not necessarily "they"; check who added it I guess. < 1306702579 705834 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1306702838 321350 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: P.S. speech recognition sucks etc. < 1306702849 205750 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :That took quite a while. < 1306702881 981965 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does wikipedia has a "svn/git/hg/foo blame" style thing that'd show the page but subdivided into non-overlapping blocks with the latest person-to-edit annotated? < 1306702883 431667 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't going to logread until PH bugged me about it. < 1306702906 363379 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :A conspiracacy. < 1306702915 407490 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : I wasn't going to logread until PH bugged me about it. < 1306702917 637112 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, !!!! < 1306702948 666455 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I was under the impression you logread absolutely everything. < 1306702957 253536 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I usually do, but the log looked boring. < 1306702960 678077 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It is/was.) < 1306703039 88369 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :12:56:49: Using the NumPy and SciPy libraries will give you the tools you need to solve harder math problems. < 1306703039 255957 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :12:56:51: :D < 1306703039 550826 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :12:57:22: yeah i prove most my graph-related theorems using numpy < 1306703039 623663 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :13:08:11: oklopol, but isn't python rather slow, both to execute and to program in. < 1306703039 623745 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :13:08:27: I mean, a higher level language might be better, and also likely faster < 1306703042 656422 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :13:08:36: hm < 1306703046 100344 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Left without comment. < 1306703072 492955 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, read the next few lines please < 1306703078 916877 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Waah. < 1306703081 954465 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are important :P < 1306703118 564550 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → < 1306703150 576446 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :13:33:33: Phantom_Hoover, interesting, googling PCMCIA rule 34 with safe search off gives me nothing still. < 1306703150 688369 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[...]13:46:39: Phantom_Hoover, anyway it seems rule 34 is thus invalid. That is a much more interesting fact. < 1306703157 449203 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Honestly, I am not going over the metaphysical definitions again. < 1306703166 995452 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just don't understand four-dimensional pornographic platonism. < 1306703239 844471 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :type-2 pcmcia cards have two rows of *34* pins - coincidence? < 1306703280 90705 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Re the boring-looking log: well, you know what they say: #esoteric is like a box of chocolates; often there's two layers, with a thin sheet of paper in-between. < 1306703321 735201 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I've more often seen cardboard. < 1306703393 125569 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1306703739 584528 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:19:52: Lymia, well my point was sram is larger than dram in real life. And you can't do dram in minecraft < 1306703739 696479 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:20:06: Lymia, the most compact memory would be delay lines < 1306703739 696658 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:20:15: Vorpal, no clue how those work. < 1306703739 696759 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:20:23: Would it do well for Brainfuck? < 1306703739 696857 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:20:29: not really no < 1306703741 496816 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:20:35: delay lines are not random access < 1306703743 410100 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:21:00: Is it possible to shift them right/left? < 1306703745 404405 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:21:05: Lymia, they work by sending data down a slow loop, cycling it back at the end to form an infinite loop < 1306703748 447338 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc pikhq's delay-line mc ram is good < 1306703758 256009 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, can you shift a delay line right or left? < 1306703761 125323 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:23:49: augur, looks cool but aligning that stuff in ascii would probably take more time than writing it out linearly < 1306703767 394130 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you can do that, it's perfect for Brainfuck. < 1306703768 687440 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it comes with a custom editor written in xemacs < 1306703770 650365 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's epigram one < 1306703774 87913 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is so obsolete it isn't even funny < 1306703781 832130 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymia: ask pikhq < 1306703826 42725 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or... < 1306703838 601724 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you build a clock you can slow down for one tick, or speed up one tick? < 1306703844 818730 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymia: ask pikhq < 1306703863 777423 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:37:45: Lymia, tell elliott. He believes I'm the only sane person here. < 1306703863 849735 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i believe that is oerjan's statement, actualyl. < 1306703866 418332 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[asterisk]actually. < 1306703867 188419 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or ais'. < 1306703885 213367 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:39:50: Vorpal: you should run the CPython translated by Emscripten in your browser ;) < 1306703885 323956 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:40:01: it's insane, but it works < 1306703885 324115 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:40:03: lifthrasiir, ouch. < 1306703885 324215 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:40:25: lifthrasiir, in firefox. With 2 GB RAM in the system. No thanks. < 1306703892 346901 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is actually very fast/lightweight < 1306704053 22338 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :17:37:24: lifthrasiir, I found map less than useful for bf optimisation. Since there might not be an 1:1 map of number of elements < 1306704057 916221 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :um concatMap? < 1306704164 52922 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:13:52: Vorpal: A C-to-BF compiler, with as limited extensions as possible. Call it a BF-based VM. < 1306704164 125127 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:14:13: evincar, ais wrote the beginnings of a gcc backend generating bf < 1306704164 125309 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:14:22: I don't think he finished the bfasm -> bf bit < 1306704166 753205 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is also c[two]bf < 1306704263 427357 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:35:24: Vorpal: Maybe you should shut up. < 1306704263 807537 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:35:27: We get it. < 1306704263 880345 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:35:38: And you're going to talk about this for two more months. < 1306704263 880445 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[...] < 1306704266 321131 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:35:51: Maybe you should shut up. < 1306704266 567382 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:36:31: *Your argument is falling on deaf ears, because I don't care*. < 1306704277 938440 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: You have surely realised by now that the only way to stop Vorpal repeating himself is to not reply. < 1306704365 184329 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: What is this static Funge subset compiler? < 1306704366 903402 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not jitfunge? < 1306704416 961629 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I think I called it "funcot", and it was just barely enough to run fungot; but a horrible mess in all other respects. < 1306704429 826113 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :How recent? < 1306704447 487074 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:43:23: come on, it is definitely possible to decode speech. Humans manage most of the time. < 1306704447 559696 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, it's just USELESS AND SHITTY. < 1306704460 589807 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :April 2010, it seems. < 1306704465 592599 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately fizzie has yet to realise this because of his mid-life crisis. :( < 1306704483 371528 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I'm not going to discuss *that*. < 1306704492 867101 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, he is afraid of the truth. < 1306704578 189678 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1306704581 66034 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.230.8 JOIN :#esoteric < 1306705013 36685 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-144-3.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1306705032 428550 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-241.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1306705068 8186 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.230.8 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: Congratulations, you've tempted me into writing my own BF compiler. < 1306705076 126536 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-144-3.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: \o/ < 1306705081 645625 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.230.8 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: But generating assembly? That's loser talk. I'm going to generate raw ELF binaries. < 1306705086 216712 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.230.8 PRIVMSG #esoteric :With manually-assembled headers. < 1306705114 330050 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-144-3.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, I have got to say, GNU Stow is very nice for managing ~/local/ < 1306705163 337593 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-144-3.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm, lightweight package management. < 1306705248 91856 :eremitah`off!~mao@189.30.208.153 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1306705356 469752 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.230.8 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: The problem with BF optimisation is that you have to hardcode things like addition loop recognition just to get even basic optimisation done. :/ < 1306705372 2164 :eremitah`off!~mao@189.30.208.153 JOIN :#esoteric < 1306705376 89689 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-144-3.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yuh. < 1306705386 565269 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.230.8 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I don't like hardcoding such things. < 1306705421 737541 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, is addition loop recognition implicit in your code? < 1306705444 383669 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there is 256 possible values in one cell then can you code it with tables? < 1306705454 900630 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.230.8 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I mean the recognition of it. < 1306705466 337427 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-144-3.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymia: Addition loop recognition is nonexistent in my code. < 1306705474 914219 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-144-3.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a naive peephole optimiser! < 1306705486 345407 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-144-3.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That... Works astoundingly well. < 1306705529 979292 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, does it manage to turn addition into addition? < 1306705553 663719 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-144-3.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope! < 1306705568 319099 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could you do that with that weird optimization you talked about? < 1306705576 742592 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-144-3.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :... What weird optimization? < 1306705592 18125 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-144-3.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shouldn't be anything weird in it. < 1306705594 847444 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :The one with the math. < 1306705596 619824 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hides. < 1306705599 90366 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-144-3.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That wasn't me. < 1306705604 464149 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, the one involving iteration counts. < 1306705607 738636 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-144-3.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That wasn't me. < 1306705614 703264 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1306705615 806778 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wrong person. < 1306705626 830153 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-144-3.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably thinking of lifthrasiir or Vorpal. < 1306705634 797330 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-144-3.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're the ones with the actually high-quality compilers. < 1306705642 219404 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.230.8 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was lifthrasiir going mad explaining basic arithmetic to Vorpal >:) < 1306705656 452911 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.230.8 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: Technically it's just one compiler and its copy-paste language-translation. < 1306705664 667694 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.230.8 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(See also: CCBI and its unofficial, incomplete port, cfunge.) < 1306706816 191322 :MigoMipo_!~John@84-217-11-56.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1306707018 484833 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-11-56.tn.glocalnet.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1306707233 60840 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1306708087 548388 :MigoMipo_!~John@84-217-11-56.tn.glocalnet.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1306708953 339792 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1306709835 198133 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.230.8 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pokfesgj < 1306710323 308580 :Aune!~arne@piggelin.lysator.liu.se QUIT :Quit: Hath Deprated < 1306710873 856349 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1306712863 757643 :eremitah`off!~mao@189.30.208.153 NICK :eremitah < 1306713124 516553 :eremitah!~mao@189.30.208.153 PART :#esoteric < 1306713538 273598 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds