00:20:33 <elliott_> pikhq_: How do I make mplayer de-interlace.
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01:03:08 <zzo38> Do you know anything about Artificial Stupidity? I am playing Pokemon Card GB2 and I think the opponent acts like stupid... Opponent has a few powerful cards on bench with energy. I have also many cards on bench, some of which have energy. But I keep Abra Lv10 (30 HP, 0 retreat, attack Psyshock (1 dam, toss coin to paralyze), opponent has Chansey Lv55 (with no energy on it!) active, which is resisted to me.
01:03:50 <zzo38> I keep using Psyshock to do no damage but sometimes paralyze, and will probably win at this rate. Opponent plays Bill, Master Ball, Team Rocket's Trap, and so on, probably losing at this rate.
01:04:18 <zzo38> That is the strategy this time. Do not hurt and do not get hurt. (Other times the strategy is different)
01:05:06 <zzo38> We both still have 6 side cards remaining, I have 15 cards in draw pile and opponent has only 7 cards remaining in draw pile, so probably they will lose.
01:06:04 <zzo38> (The point of doing paralyze is to stop opponent from retreating in case they attach an energy in order to retreat. But even if they do, I still have good chances to win, I think, because there is not enough turns remaining)
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01:14:21 <zzo38> There are other examples of artificial stupidity in this game and in the previous one
01:16:15 <CakeProp1et> This is the first time I've actually played tetris for any amount of time.
01:16:40 <CakeProp1et> I tried playing it as a child but I always gave up. But I'm now addicted... :D
01:17:12 <CakeProp1et> but anyways, would anyone like to help me brainstorm ideas for a poetic programming language?
01:23:11 <CakeProp1et> This language would rely heavily on the properties of individual lines and words.
01:24:25 <CakeProp1et> rhyme, meter, number of syllables, etc. There would need to be a lot of different ways to accomplish the same operation.
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02:34:13 <CakeProp1et> oh look there's a programming language called Haifu
02:36:43 <oerjan> Kungku is then conspiciously missing
02:37:13 <oerjan> "Haifu" is Mandarin for "sea duck". maybe not.
02:38:03 <oerjan> **'"Haifu" is Mandarin for "sea duck".' maybe not.
02:38:37 <oerjan> no, he pretty clearly went for the pun there
02:42:47 <CakeProp1et> As in all good programming practice, comments are used to elucidate sections of code, provide extra syllables for syntactic integrity, and make poignant observations on the nature of life and the ephemeral qualities of beauty.
02:43:25 <oerjan> clearly there is not enough good programming practice around.
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04:37:55 <oerjan> > read . reverse . show <$> [1..] :: [Integer]
04:37:56 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,1,11,21,31,41,51,61,71,81,91,2,12,22,32,42,52,62,72,82,9...
04:38:05 <elliott> bastard, automating my speculation
04:38:13 <elliott> hmm what's the differences
04:38:27 <elliott> how do you turn it into a list of two-tuples
04:38:32 <elliott> (one,two), (two,three) etc.
04:38:56 <elliott> > let xs = read . reverse . show <$> [1..] :: [Integer] in zipWith (-) xs (tail xs)
04:38:57 <lambdabot> [-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,8,-10,-10,-10,-10,-10,-10,-10,-10,-10,89,-10,-10,-...
04:38:59 <oerjan> @hoogle [a] -> n -> [[a]]
04:38:59 <lambdabot> Data.List genericDrop :: Integral i => i -> [a] -> [a]
04:38:59 <lambdabot> Data.List genericTake :: Integral i => i -> [a] -> [a]
04:38:59 <lambdabot> Data.List intersperse :: a -> [a] -> [a]
04:39:04 <elliott> > let xs = read . reverse . show <$> [1..] :: [Integer] in zipWith (-) (tail xs) xs
04:39:05 <lambdabot> [1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,-8,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,-89,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,...
04:40:08 <oerjan> ancient aztec god of functional programming
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04:41:40 <Lymia> What is the most elegant fork bomb?
04:42:58 <oerjan> :t fix((>>)<*>Control.Concurrent.forkIO)
04:42:59 <lambdabot> against inferred type `GHC.Conc.ThreadId'
04:43:14 <Lymia> pikhq, elegant Perl code?
04:43:32 <oerjan> :t Control.Concurrent.forkIO
04:43:33 <pikhq> Lymia: If ever there could be such a thing, "fork while fork" is it.
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04:45:20 <oerjan> :t fix forever.Control.Concurrent.forkIO
04:46:03 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a b. (Monad m) => m a -> m b
04:46:28 <oerjan> how the heck does it end up with -> a
04:47:10 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a b. (Monad m) => (m b -> m a) -> m b
04:47:40 <oerjan> :t fix$forever.Control.Concurrent.forkIO
04:48:12 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a. (Monad m) => m a
04:48:27 <CakeProp1et> hmm, why is it "while fork" when fork returns 0 for the child process?
04:49:17 <CakeProp1et> that's a lot of processes that you spawn that just halt more or less immediately.
04:50:14 <pikhq> Actually, :(){ :|: & };: has a lot to be said for it.
04:50:30 <oerjan> the forking cookie monster
04:51:01 <CakeProp1et> heh, I didn't know you could use punctuation as a subroutine name in bash.
04:51:24 <Lymia> CakeProp1et, can't say I know enough perl to know.
04:51:46 <Lymia> First fork executes, two processes.
04:51:47 <oerjan> :t Control.Concurrent.par
04:51:48 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `Control.Concurrent.par'
04:51:49 <Lymia> Both go on to "while fork"
04:51:59 <Lymia> Starts a new process which dies quickly.
04:52:03 <oerjan> :t Control.Parallel.par
04:52:03 <Lymia> Parent gets a non-zero value.
04:52:11 <Lymia> Forks off another live process.
04:52:28 <Lymia> It doubles in number every time it executes the first fork.
04:52:33 <CakeProp1et> well no, the condition is processed first. I'm just wondering why not "fork while 1", which does the same thing pretty much but avoids the child processes that just terminate.
04:52:37 <Lymia> Unless the second fork works differently.
04:52:45 <Lymia> CakeProp1et, because that's not as elegant.
04:52:53 <oerjan> :t fix.join Control.Parallel.par -- wait, that won't work
04:54:21 <Lymia> fork while fork still kills the system.
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05:00:44 <Lymia> CakeProp1et, that's not very elegant.
05:04:50 <Lymia> How does fork() work with memory anyways?
05:05:29 <CakeProp1et> One person's non-elegance is another person's highly deadly quadruple fork of faster doom.
05:07:28 <pikhq> Lymia: Typically, COW.
05:08:25 <CakeProp1et> so either it safeguards for that, or Gregor is going to be very unhappy.
05:08:37 <pikhq> Safeguards. That's pretty easy...
05:09:59 <Lymia> int main(){int count=0;while(true){int v=fork();if(v<1){count++;if(count==2||v<0){while(true){}}}}return 0;}
05:10:09 <Lymia> You wanted a deadly forkbomb?
05:10:28 <CakeProp1et> I wanted a forkbomb with no useless forks.
05:10:56 <Lymia> If it fails to fork, it falls back to an infinite loop.
05:10:56 <pikhq> int main(){fork();main();}
05:11:03 <Lymia> pikhq, stack overflows.
05:11:05 <Lymia> Each process is finite.
05:11:08 <pikhq> Lymia: GCC tail-calls.
05:11:13 <pikhq> Erm, does the TCO.
05:11:31 <pikhq> I'm not kidding, GCC does tail-call optimisation.
05:11:52 <Lymia> int main(){int count=0;while(true){int v=fork();if(v==-1){while(true){rand();}}}return 0;}
05:12:00 <Lymia> int main(){while(true){int v=fork();if(v==-1){while(true){rand();}}}return 0;}
05:12:31 <Lymia> int main(){for(;;){if(fork()==-1){for(;;){rand();}}}return 0;}
05:12:47 <Lymia> int main(){if(fork()==-1){for(;;){rand();}}main();}
05:13:02 <Lymia> int main(){if(fork()<0){for(;;){rand();}}main();}
05:13:08 <Lymia> Why am I golfing a fork bomb?
05:13:27 <fizzie> You have a pair of useless braces in the rand-loop.
05:14:01 <fizzie> And for the if too, I guess.
05:14:13 <fizzie> (That wasn't really the "why" though.)
05:14:43 <zzo38> main(){if~fork())for(;;)rand();main();}
05:15:24 <zzo38> I know, I made a mistake
05:15:40 <zzo38> There should be ( before ~
05:15:52 <Lymia> int main(){if(fork()<0)for(;;)rand();main();}
05:16:13 <Lymia> int main(){if(~fork())for(;;)rand();main();}
05:16:17 <CakeProp1et> so what would happen if you wrote for() in C?
05:16:19 <Lymia> main() isn't standard I don't believe.
05:16:20 <pikhq> ~ would be undefined behavior.
05:16:28 <Lymia> pikhq, fork returns -1, right?
05:16:37 <zzo38> No ~ means if -1 then false otherwise true
05:17:00 <pikhq> Lymia: Representation of signed values is undefined.
05:17:00 <Lymia> Does the C spec not require two's compartment or something?
05:17:11 <Lymia> int main(){if(fork()<0)for(;;)rand();main();}
05:17:23 <pikhq> So, ~(-1) is undefined behavior, and the compiler may launch the missiles.
05:17:46 <CakeProp1et> it's been my understanding that almost every minute detail in C is undefined behavior..
05:17:46 <pikhq> Hrm. Actually, it may be implementation defined...
05:18:03 <fizzie> Even when it "works", ~ inverts the sense, too. If fork() returns all-ones (-1), then the condition is false, not true.
05:18:04 <pikhq> In which case the compiler may only launch the missiles if its documentation notes that.
05:18:14 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes I mentioned that already.....
05:19:10 <pikhq> "Whether signed integer types are represented using sign and magnitude, two's complement, or one's complement, and whether the extraordinary value is a trap representation or an ordinary value"
05:19:25 <pikhq> Okay, it's actually defined behavior, with a handful of possibilities.
05:19:32 <pikhq> Well. Implementation-defined.
05:19:40 <pikhq> Sadly, the compiler may *not* launch the missiles.
05:19:49 <pikhq> Oh, wait, yes it can.
05:19:51 <fizzie> pikhq: Constructing a trap value invokes undefined behaviour, doesn't it?
05:19:54 <zzo38> while(~fork()?main():rand());
05:19:54 <pikhq> "The results of some bitwise operations on signed integers"
05:20:13 <zzo38> That probably wastes a lot of memory
05:20:19 <pikhq> It could, in fact, launch the missiles.
05:20:49 <pikhq> In C99 it needs to act sanely.
05:20:57 <Lymia> So could *((unsigned int*)malloc(1)-1)=0
05:22:50 <CakeProp1et> `run echo "`ps -e | grep perl | wc -l` `ps -e | grep python | wc -l`"
05:25:19 <zzo38> GameBoy binary golf: The header must be correct, and it must work regardless of what data is in the Nintendo logo area, but other than that it doesn't matter. Also do not damage the hardware. But it is OK to use some of the things in the header as code or data, as long as the header still contains the correct header data (such as title, checksums, and so on).
05:28:57 <Lymia> zzo38, with no defined goal, that is meaningless.
05:30:20 <zzo38> Goal is making some kind of game.
05:31:35 <zzo38> I have seen a breakout game in GameBoy in only 1K. It is in color and has sound effects too. The README file also claims it includes a secret DVD movie.
05:33:12 <CakeProp1et> Apparently this is a Windows batch forkbomb: %0|%0
05:35:25 <CakeProp1et> Also "fork while fork" works in Ruby as well.
05:36:41 <zzo38> Have you ever play Pokemon card?
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05:58:04 <pikhq> Huh. Beastie was drawn by John Lasseter.
05:58:33 <pikhq> You may know John Lasseter for all of Pixar's films.
06:02:56 <pikhq> In other news, Linux 3.0-rc1 released.
06:04:00 <Lymia> What did they add that was that important?
06:04:55 <pikhq> Linus decided 2.6.40 was stupid.
06:17:23 <pikhq> Also, .39 would've been a good choice for it...
06:17:30 <pikhq> 2.6.39 removed the BKL, after all.
06:22:03 <zzo38> Yes what kind of changes?
06:22:10 <CakeProp1et> ...Ruby almost has its own really creepy cult thing going on.
06:25:28 <pikhq> zzo38: It's a fairly normal Linux release.
06:25:34 <pikhq> Just with an easier number.
06:28:51 <fizzie> "I decided to just bite the bullet, and call the next version 3.0. It will get released close enough to the 20-year mark, which is excuse enough for me, although honestly, the real reason is just that I can no longer comfortably count as high as 40."
06:29:29 <fizzie> And regarding what's new: "NOTHING. Absolutely nothing. Sure, we have the usual two thirds driver changes, and a lot of random fixes, but the point is that 3.0 is *just* about renumbering, we are very much *not* doing a KDE-4 or a Gnome-3 here. No breakage, no special scary new features, nothing at all like that."
06:33:20 <pikhq> If he really felt like doing major breaking changes, he would undoubtedly, uh, *have them in development* for a while.
06:33:29 <pikhq> Instead of "Surprise, I'm breaking everything!"
06:33:55 <pikhq> Say, "Surprise, I felt like making Linux into a microkernel."
06:35:50 <fizzie> Doing the MkLinux thing, running Linux as a user-mode process on the Mach microkernel.
06:36:18 <olsner> if he had made the announcement right in the beginning of april, he could've announced the 2.9 branch for making linux into a microkernel
06:38:04 <fizzie> It's also supposed to be just "3.0", but he writes: "Now, my alpha-maleness [of renumbering without having a committee meeting about it] sadly does not actually extend to all the scripts and Makefile rules, so the kernel is fighting back, and is calling itself 3.0.0-rc1. We'll have the usual 6-7 weeks to wrestle it into submission, and get scripts etc cleaned up, and the final release should be just "3.0". The -stable team can use the third number for their ver
06:39:07 <fizzie> Interesting bit of trivia: MkLinux lets you run multiple instances of the Linux task, all Xen-like like that. (It supposedly doesn't do it very well, but still.)
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07:15:05 <zzo38> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainstuck I didn't invent Brainstuck, but I added it to the wiki and added some information.
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07:21:59 <Lymia> You could say that the change between 2.0 and 3.0 is large enough to count.
07:22:07 <Lymia> Any lines of code untouched?
07:22:12 <CakeProp1et> it's going to take a while to beat my 43 line record in Tetris...
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07:27:37 <Patashu> brainstuck is like brainfuck with a stack?
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07:28:06 <Sgeo> Needed to replace Silverex's xcperl.dll with a different one
07:31:33 <Lymia> zzo38, you do realize that's defined as a stack and not memory, right?
07:32:13 <Lymia> http://jisho.org/words?jap=%E3%82%B9%E3%82%BF%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF&eng=&dict=edict
07:32:24 <Lymia> The name looks like a mistranslation of "Brainstack"
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07:35:18 <Sgeo> I feel weird that I'm using PLAIN though
07:35:26 <Sgeo> SASL not working
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07:44:08 <lifthrasiir> Lymia, that word transcribes both "stack" and "stuck". the ambiguity seems intentional.
07:44:53 <Lymia> It isn't a pun that would be gotten in English, that's for sure.
07:45:02 <Lymia> Well, as anything but a corruption of "stack"
07:46:19 <zzo38> Brainstuck does have its memory as a stack, and I have mentioned the corresponding Forth codes to operate the Forth stack, too.
07:47:18 <zzo38> I do realize it defined as a stack and not memory
07:47:34 <Lymia> It's more clear when defined that way.
07:48:13 <zzo38> In this case it is just the way, that it is based on the C code for brainfuck interpreter but modified. But it also acts as a stack, too.
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07:55:24 <Lymia> zzo38, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainstuck
07:55:32 <Lymia> That might be a little more clear as to the intention.
07:56:18 <CakeProp1et> yeah, from reading the page I couldn't tell that it was talking about a stack until I got to the FORTH section.
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07:59:30 <CakeProp1et> has anyone noticed that a lot of esolangs are stack based?
08:00:42 <Sgeo> CakeProp1et, make one that's based on an array of queuestacks!
08:01:21 <CakeProp1et> I remember writing up a language spec for a stackqueue language. Or was it a queuestack?
08:01:39 <Lymia> A tape of queuestacks.
08:02:27 <CakeProp1et> well, an abstraction of that observation, a lot of esolangs are based on a finite number of globally accessible data structures, usually one.
08:03:21 <Lymia> That, or self-modification as the only method to store state.
08:03:28 <CakeProp1et> but I guess most languages work like this. you could say that most conventional languages are symbol table based.
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08:06:16 <fizzie> There are some that do queues instead of stacks.
08:06:46 <CakeProp1et> so, if you made a esolang that used symbol tables, what else could you do to make it esoteric? Weird syntax, sure, but maybe unorthodox value types?
08:07:38 <fizzie> Strange control flow, uncommon operations?
08:08:44 <CakeProp1et> I like haifus value types. Each value has a yin and a yang, and they must be in balance. They're also associated with elements which each have relationships to one another.
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08:09:41 <oerjan> <CakeProp1et> I remember writing up a language spec for a stackqueue language. Or was it a queuestack? <-- i remember someone (elliott?) making a language named Stue based on combining those
08:10:07 <fizzie> "Stue is a stack/queue language by User:CakeProphet."
08:10:36 <CakeProp1et> I particularly like the yin/yang idea. Perhaps you could have quantities that represent a duality. concretely, it would two positive integer values, but you may not need to know that information exactly. You could use other properties, like whether or not the duality is "balanced" or whether or not it's completely one-sided.
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08:13:00 <CakeProp1et> oerjan: yeah, that's mine. But honestly it might as well not even exist anymore because I have no clue where I put my spec at.
08:13:06 <oerjan> <CakeProp1et> so, if you made a esolang that used symbol tables, what else could you do to make it esoteric? Weird syntax, sure, but maybe unorthodox value types? <-- well my vapor language Reaper went for an unusual object model
08:13:18 <oerjan> (or will, if i ever finish it)
08:14:46 <fizzie> Glass also has regular, named variables with different scopes; but then is ridiculously object-oriented.
08:16:09 <oerjan> i think Chef has naming too
08:17:07 <CakeProp1et> declaring causal relationships is always fun.
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16:37:40 <Phantom_Hoover> 01:17:12: <CakeProp1et> but anyways, would anyone like to help me brainstorm ideas for a poetic programming language?
16:37:40 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
16:38:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Like I said, you can check for rhymes pretty easily with a phonetic dictionary.
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16:56:03 <pikhq> Yeah, it's called a rhyme table. So much easier than trying to parse out phonemes from the written representation.
16:56:11 <pikhq> And it's even language-agnostic.
16:56:32 <pikhq> ... Presuming you can break into words, which is non-trivial for certain languages.
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19:05:39 <elliott> pikhq: My god, it's going to be three point oh.
19:05:48 <elliott> will get released close enough to the 20-year mark, which is excuse
19:05:48 <elliott> enough for me, although honestly, the real reason is just that I can
19:05:48 <elliott> no longe rcomfortably count as high as 40."
19:06:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The next Linux release.
19:11:57 <pikhq> elliott: Yup, 3.0, then 3.1, and so on.
19:12:11 <elliott> Hmm, where does he say he's abandoning even-versioning?
19:12:30 <pikhq> Even-odd versioning was abandoned early last decade, man.
19:13:16 <pikhq> coppro: No, it's 3.0.
19:13:34 <pikhq> The third digit is going to be used by the stable team.
19:13:47 <pikhq> Not necessarily digit, of course.
19:14:08 <coppro> it's 3.0.0 until they fix the scripts that make dumb assumptions. Then it will be 3.0
19:14:20 <pikhq> It's still 3.0, even if the scripts think otherwise.
19:14:22 <elliott> it's 3.0-rc1 until they fix the scripts
19:14:38 <pikhq> elliott: There will be more -rc releases.
19:18:14 <pikhq> As an alternate interpretation, 3.0 will be absolutely revolutionary, and Linus simply hasn't commented about it because he's insane.
19:18:41 <pikhq> i.e.: "* <odd>.x.x: Linus went crazy, broke absolutely everything, and rewrote the kernel to be a microkernel using a special message-passing version of Visual Basic. (timeframe: 'we expect that he will be released from the mental institution in a decade or two')."
19:20:40 <lifthrasiir> pikhq: no, it's <any-positive-number>:x.x.x. such revolution should be large enough to blow the current versioning scheme as a whole.
19:21:14 <pikhq> Such as "Linus replaced Linux with a reverse-engineered NT kernel"?
19:21:28 <elliott> But NT is actually fairly decent :P
19:21:44 <pikhq> With absolute shit glued onto it.
19:21:45 <Lymia> The operating system over it, however...
19:22:05 <lifthrasiir> NT *kernel* is decent. the userland is not.
19:22:14 <olsner> pikhq: the last commit before 3.0 will be "Fix version number script and rewrite as microkernel"
19:22:19 <Lymia> Could you take NT, the POSIX compatibility layer, and build a Linux system over it?
19:22:53 <elliott> It's not a POSIX compatibility layer.
19:22:56 <elliott> It's an implementation of POSIX on NT.
19:23:00 <elliott> Just like Windows is implemented on NT.
19:23:10 <lifthrasiir> afaik that subsystem is not well supported
19:23:19 <elliott> lifthrasiir: Works well enough to run Gentoo.
19:23:27 <elliott> (In a Windows environment.)
19:23:29 <elliott> lifthrasiir: It really does -- Gentoo Prefix
19:24:09 <pikhq> It helps that it has absolutely no interaction with Win32 at all.
19:24:32 <pikhq> So, it gets some niceties such as "a sane fork".
19:24:52 <Gregor> Hmmm, there's a Gentoo Prefix for OS X ...
19:24:57 <Gregor> That could make OS X nearly tolerable.
19:25:18 <elliott> With OS X it's easier to just get used to the ancient shipped userland and use a package manager to add things on top.
19:25:47 <Gregor> Yeah, but Fink and Ports both suck ass.
19:25:53 <elliott> Gregor: Homebrew sucks less.
19:26:03 <elliott> It's still... idiotic, because it's ran by people who like OS X.
19:26:15 <Lymia> Get apt running on OS X.
19:26:17 <elliott> But it basically refuses to package anything OS X does, so the number of conflicts and pain is way less.
19:26:39 <Gregor> It doesn't HAVE to be, it's just that Fink is poorly managed and basically garbage.
19:26:45 <Gregor> That is to say, the problem isn't apt, it's Fink :P
19:27:07 <pikhq> Well, apt *does* have a very, very overcomplicated means of building packages.
19:27:27 <elliott> Yeah, making Debian packages is just ... wow.
19:27:34 <elliott> The debian/ directory is full of absolutely inexplicable files.
19:27:37 <pikhq> Seriously, it makes RPM seem *wonderful*.
19:27:41 <lifthrasiir> but isn't the main concern with Fink that it is just not up-to-date?
19:27:43 <elliott> I don't know where they learned to write Makefiles.
19:27:51 <pikhq> elliott: Automake, I bet.
19:28:09 <pikhq> I'm just citing it as a terrible place to learn Make from.
19:28:30 <lifthrasiir> i abandoned Fink for that reason, but then i abandoned OS X (almost) so i didn't try out the Homebrew yet ;)
19:29:02 <Lymia> How hard is it to target OS X with a program?
19:29:08 <Gregor> I abandoned OS X before I ever used it, but I'm forced to use it sometimes :P
19:29:14 <Lymia> elliott, release a version for
19:29:30 <elliott> Lymia: Just about every library you can find on Linux you can find on OS X.
19:29:38 <olsner> Lymia: it's about as hard as releasing OS X software
19:29:39 <elliott> If you mean a GUI app, and you're not using SDL or GLUT or whatever, then it's harder.
19:29:41 <Gregor> lifthrasiir: Various school/research-related BS, which I've almost replaced entirely by now.
19:29:43 <elliott> Qt has decent OS X support.
19:29:57 <elliott> Gregor: With OS X I've found the easiest thing is just to live with it.
19:30:00 <pikhq> GTK's OS X "support" is still X11, isn't it?
19:30:02 <elliott> Trying to make it less painful has the opposite of the desired effect.
19:30:08 <elliott> pikhq: No, it has native support. ...That is, Quartz support.
19:30:11 <Gregor> elliott: I've found the easiest thing is to reboot into Debian :P
19:30:15 <elliott> It's buggy and ugly and non-native-looking and horrible.
19:30:18 <pikhq> Lymia: OS X literally is a UNIX system.
19:30:24 <Lymia> elliott, how much of a problem is OS X's utterly different UI for coding cross-platform software targeting it?
19:30:30 <pikhq> Your worst-case scenario is having to build your dependencies manually.
19:30:31 <Lymia> pikhq, well, if it's command line, it shouldn't be an issue.
19:30:38 <Gregor> OS X is proof that Unix certification is bullshit :)
19:30:42 <pikhq> The UI is literally the only distinction.
19:30:49 <elliott> Gregor: OS X is more Unix than many Unices.
19:30:52 <Lymia> I mean UI programs, of course.
19:30:53 <elliott> I mean, it IS basically an old BSD.
19:30:53 <pikhq> ... Okay, okay, and its init system is a bit wonky.
19:30:53 <olsner> Gregor: I though NT's POSIX subsystem was that proof
19:30:56 <elliott> Lymia: You should really write a different UI for everything you're targeting if your goal is a /decent/ UI.
19:31:03 <lifthrasiir> reasons that i abandoned OS X include, by the way, Mac hardware sucks ;)
19:31:04 <elliott> Lymia: If you really only want to write one GUI... use Qt.
19:31:17 <elliott> lifthrasiir: Eh? Mac hardware is, like, one of the only good things about a Mac.
19:31:29 <Lymia> elliott, that becomes a problem around Linux, don't you think?
19:31:34 <pikhq> olsner: No, no, IBM z/OS is that proof.
19:31:50 <elliott> lifthrasiir: Right; the actual hardware itself is good though and of course that doesn't apply to desktops.
19:31:56 <Lymia> elliott, actually, what do you mean by that, anyways?
19:31:57 <pikhq> olsner: Fun fact: the native character encoding there is EBCDIC.
19:31:57 <lifthrasiir> my MacBook Pro halts if i don't turn on a fan in front of it
19:32:02 <Lymia> Write a different UI to conform to the system's standards?
19:32:08 <pikhq> And it's older than UNIX.
19:32:16 <elliott> Lymia: But how does Qt become a problem around Linux?
19:32:20 <lifthrasiir> i didn't see any other laptop behaving like that
19:32:23 <elliott> Or do you mean "how do you write a UI for Linux?"
19:32:28 <elliott> Because if you do mean that: you don't.
19:32:38 <elliott> You write a UI for GNOME or KDE or "just" GTK or Qt or whatever.
19:32:59 <pikhq> Qt integrates quite well into GTK setups these days, anyways.
19:33:13 <olsner> could you make a linux system that works in the en_US.EBCDIC locale?
19:33:31 <pikhq> olsner: ... I don't see why not.
19:33:39 <pikhq> Though it would probably break a lot of shit. :P
19:34:13 <lifthrasiir> for (int i = 0; i < 26; ++i) putchar('A' + i); will break, at least
19:34:15 <pikhq> (i.e. anything that assumes vague compatibility with C locale)
19:35:17 <elliott> lifthrasiir: That has undefined results according to C anyway.
19:35:21 <elliott> (Not UB, just undefined results.)
19:35:29 <elliott> (It can't explode your toaster, but it can result in any character it wants.)
19:35:47 <lifthrasiir> elliott: yes, but people get used for it anyway (again)
19:35:49 <elliott> pikhq: Hmm, if char is signed, then all character arithmetic is potentially UB, right?
19:35:55 <Lymia> elliott, the other solution is much much more evil, don't you think?
19:36:00 <elliott> pikhq: Because it could over/underflow.
19:36:09 <elliott> 'A' could be the maximum char value.
19:36:12 <elliott> Lymia: What other solution?
19:36:26 <lifthrasiir> Lymia: for (int i = 0; i < 26; ++i) putchar("ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ"[i]); is only solution that is defined
19:36:39 <pikhq> elliott: ... Oh man, it could actually be UB.
19:36:41 <Lymia> lifthrasiir, which is nasty.
19:36:55 <elliott> pikhq: Unless it's given an exemption.
19:37:41 <pikhq> elliott: Well. Signed overflow in C99 is *implementation* defined behavior from a small handful of options.
19:37:55 <pikhq> (1s complement, 2s complement, sign/magnitude)
19:38:07 <elliott> It's UB in C[eightynine], I know that.
19:38:25 <pikhq> In C90, signed integers work however the compiler defines them to work.
19:38:40 <pikhq> Which includes "kicks your cat and launches the missiles".
19:38:54 <olsner> that's boring... makes esoteric-but-standard-compliant C environments that much less interesting
19:39:00 <lifthrasiir> elliott: <off-topic> what do the brackets mean?
19:39:25 <olsner> ... to think about, since no-one seems to ever be getting around to making them anyway
19:39:30 <pikhq> olsner: Oh, there's still plenty of room for interesting behavior in C.
19:39:49 <elliott> lifthrasiir: My number keys are broken :-)
19:39:54 <elliott> lifthrasiir: Apart from 9 and 0.
19:40:02 <pikhq> Heck, there's undefined behavior in the preprocessing step.
19:40:08 <elliott> I have thus far been too lazy to send it in to get fixed.
19:40:17 <pikhq> The preprocessor could very well summon nasal demons.
19:40:23 <Lymia> Can we make an #esoteric compliant C compiler?
19:40:24 <elliott> You mean for [hash]include?
19:40:39 <pikhq> elliott: They made a handful of syntax errors UB.
19:41:10 <elliott> pikhq: ais maintains that all syntax errors are UB.
19:41:42 <olsner> the #esoteric compliant C compiler would require running as root and clears your partition tables at any time it can prove UB has happened
19:41:45 <lifthrasiir> elliott: was there any real attempt to implement DS9k?
19:41:58 <pikhq> Also, #pragma has implementation-defined behavior.
19:42:06 <pikhq> That, too, can launch demons out of your nose.
19:42:32 <pikhq> lifthrasiir: Oh, right, C1x is adding that namespace, isn't it?
19:42:50 <olsner> (or we could just make it require a connected nucular missile launcher)
19:42:56 <pikhq> C99 added #pragma...
19:43:05 <pikhq> No, wait, it's older.
19:43:20 <pikhq> GCC 1 had the nethack launching behavior, after all.
19:43:31 <Lymia> They get +1 cookies for that.
19:43:37 <lifthrasiir> pikhq: #pragma STDC FENV_ACCESS and so on appears in ISO/IEC 9899:1999.
19:43:38 <pikhq> Yeah, #pragma STDC was C99.
19:43:44 <Lymia> pikhq, is that #esoteric complaint behavior?
19:43:47 <Lymia> Launching nethack.
19:44:01 <pikhq> Lymia: Well. So long as you document that #pragma does that.
19:44:05 <lifthrasiir> is there any interesting additions out there?
19:44:48 <pikhq> Limited polymorphism.
19:45:13 <Sgeo_> I think ants can be almost as evil as humans
19:45:31 <Sgeo_> http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/course/ent525/close/SlaveAnt.html
19:46:39 <pikhq> _Generic((x), int: foo, long: bar)(x) will call foo(x) if x is an int, bar(x) if x is a long int.
19:46:53 <olsner> the _Foo syntax is so damned ugly :/
19:47:02 <pikhq> Unicode support in the standard library...
19:47:12 <lifthrasiir> looks the feature is specially designed for tgmath.h in mind.
19:47:26 <pikhq> Yeah, but it's more generic than that.
19:47:36 <lifthrasiir> that is just a general language support for implementing tgmath.h (and others, but i don't know)
19:47:57 <pikhq> Hmm. A threading API.
19:48:17 <elliott> the C committee should be fired :)
19:48:35 <pikhq> As an optional addendum.
19:49:06 <pikhq> __STDC_NO_THREADS__ will be defined if the threading API is not implemented.
19:49:07 <lifthrasiir> i think the UCS support in the source code was included in the C standard in similar way
19:49:15 <olsner> oh, the optional addendum was the threading api? I thought the firing squad was the optional addendum :P
19:49:47 <lifthrasiir> (i never, ever used that feature being used. YMMV though.)
19:49:57 <pikhq> Seems the UTF support is mandatory.
19:50:06 <olsner> (never mind the mixup between normal firing and death by firing squad)
19:50:24 <elliott> <pikhq> __STDC_NO_THREADS__ will be defined if the threading API is not implemented.
19:53:46 <olsner> lifthrasiir: well, no, I just read elliott's "fired" as "executed by firing squad" for a while there
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20:12:38 <elliott> How do you find the fixity again.
20:12:51 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `:'
20:12:53 <lambdabot> The operator `:' [infixr 5] of a section
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21:23:54 <Sgeo> Into the water
21:24:05 <elliott> You don't have to tell me when Homestuck updates. I Know(tm).
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22:09:42 <pikhq_> ... A custom packaging system that interacts poorly with anything else?
22:09:48 <pikhq_> Why yes, that *is* a good idea.
22:10:01 <pikhq_> And by "good" I mean "bad, and also I hate you".
22:12:25 <elliott> cpanminus at least makes the interface SLIGHTLY less terrible
22:12:51 <Vorpal> elliott, it still interacts badly with the distro package manager in my experience
22:13:40 <Vorpal> elliott, so did you finish the spec for my computer?
22:14:04 <elliott> Vorpal: would you like me to work on that or elliottcraft 8^y
22:14:08 <Vorpal> elliott, Wednesday this week is when I plan to serious look at it. I will order it later this week definitely
22:14:14 <Vorpal> elliott, on my computer
22:14:21 <Vorpal> elliott, rather than elliottcraft
22:15:13 <elliott> But I don't feel like it right now and you aren't paying me :P
22:16:04 <Vorpal> elliott, idea: I know there is a company near here that builds customised desktops. Ask them for a quote on the system in filling the spec. Adjust and order it much more cheaply yourself
22:16:13 <Vorpal> elliott, what do you think of that plan? Worth a try?
22:16:29 <elliott> Such companies tend to be rubbish :P
22:16:45 <Vorpal> elliott, well, might be interesting if they come up with anything good though.
22:16:46 <pikhq_> *Yeaaah*, my grandma can build better systems.
22:16:48 <Vorpal> elliott, but yes I hope for you
22:17:00 <Vorpal> pikhq_, I know mine couldn't. She is blind.
22:17:19 <Vorpal> well one of them. The other has dementia
22:17:35 <elliott> Together they would build the BEST COMPUTER.
22:17:39 <CakeProp1et> anyone know how to load a Perl module optionally, but not error if it's not there?
22:17:50 <elliott> CakeProp1et: use eval to catch the error?
22:17:56 <Vorpal> elliott, dude my blind grandma doesn't even know what a mouse is. She has never ever used a computer.
22:18:10 <CakeProp1et> elliott: I guess that works. I thought there was a better way to do it though.
22:18:16 <elliott> CakeProp1et: Maybe there is.
22:18:27 <elliott> Vorpal: It would be a psychic computer.
22:18:28 <Vorpal> elliott, your joke is not making sense
22:19:02 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway do you think you could please finish the spec this week. :)
22:20:07 <Vorpal> elliott, for now: night :)
22:20:10 <elliott> Depends on how much free time I have :P
22:20:16 <elliott> MY SERVICES ARE IN HIGH DEMAND.
22:20:22 <elliott> I'm a boutique system INTEGRATOR.
22:22:17 <CakeProp1et> elliott: haha, first time I've done any error handling in Perl. so sophisticated. :P
22:22:23 <pikhq_> Hmm... Opterons are up to 12 core chips.
22:22:26 <pikhq_> That's... Frightening.
22:22:52 <CakeProp1et> elliott: well, I forgot to count "or die" as error handling..
22:22:56 <elliott> CakeProp1et: the perl thing to do is pretend errors don't exist.
22:23:16 <pikhq_> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819105272 Just... Jeeze.
22:24:59 <pikhq_> And now I wonder how many can be stuck on a single motherboard.
22:25:31 <pikhq_> Come *on*, 4 with a daughterboard...
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22:27:08 <pikhq_> For the low, low price of ~$2000 before any parts.
22:28:59 <pikhq_> It can seriously have 256GiB of RAM.
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22:31:02 <pikhq_> So far, we're up to $11,719.63.
22:31:15 <pikhq_> With the cheapest possible 8GB DDR3 RAM.
22:31:42 <pikhq_> Assuming, of course, you want this sucker fully loaded with 48 cores and 256GiB of RAM.
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22:46:04 <elliott> pikhq_: I kind of want 48 cores...
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22:54:35 <elliott> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> The system I kind of have in mind makes a flying train a natural consequence.
22:54:39 <HackEgo> 432) <Phantom_Hoover> The system I kind of have in mind makes a flying train a natural consequence.
22:57:36 <pikhq_> Anyone willing to spend $25,649.10 on a computer?
22:58:21 <pikhq_> Sorry, slightly off...
22:58:35 <pikhq_> It's at $25,349.12, and I have a PCIe slot open.
22:58:59 <pikhq_> Actually, two, but then the PCIe 16x slot would only have 8x lanes.
23:01:43 <pikhq_> Kay, with a graphics card it's $25,884.11, and absurd.
23:02:00 <pikhq_> By "absurd" I mean "49 terabytes".
23:02:37 <pikhq_> No, only 60 gigabytes is SSD.
23:03:18 <pikhq_> Oh, wait, lemme double that...
23:04:02 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Randomly specced ubermachine.
23:06:27 * pikhq_ swaps RAM for lower latency RAM
23:08:22 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: For $38,559.11, you too can have a machine with 98 terabytes of rotating disc space, 48 cores, 256 gigabytes of SSD space, a freakishly good GPU, 256GB of RAM, all in a 9U chassis!
23:09:03 <pikhq_> ... Or you could have a sports car. But what fun's that?
23:09:41 <elliott> pikhq_: And it'll make a hell of a noise.
23:09:48 <Phantom_Hoover> It may possibly be the only thing capable of running Elliottcraft.
23:10:14 <pikhq_> And draw 1.6 megawatts.
23:10:47 <elliott> pikhq_: Got the right PSU? :P
23:11:08 <pikhq_> Yes, I have the right PSU for the 9U case.
23:11:48 <elliott> pikhq_: I'll stick it outside in a steel container or something and run wires through to my room.
23:12:52 <pikhq_> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811123157 *This* is the case.
23:13:17 <pikhq_> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814125379 currently.
23:14:02 <elliott> And also heatsink/fan replacement for at least the CPU.
23:14:09 <elliott> Since, y'know, there's gonna be a LOT of heat.
23:14:15 <pikhq_> Oh, fuck, I forgot heatsinks.
23:14:21 <elliott> Well, the GPU should be "fine".
23:14:32 <elliott> But the CPU will want a real beefy heatsink and a really big fan running at maximum speed.
23:14:38 <elliott> And you'll want like three case fans at maximum speed.
23:14:38 <pikhq_> The case has 10 fans on it.
23:15:07 <pikhq_> As such is required in the MEB spec.
23:15:07 <copumpkin> pikhq_'s e-penis is growing longer by the minute
23:15:18 <pikhq_> copumpkin: No, only if I had the cash.
23:15:30 <copumpkin> pikhq_'s hypothetical e-penis is growing longer by the minute
23:15:32 <pikhq_> This is just e-masturbation.
23:16:38 <pikhq_> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835608023 This seems reasonable.
23:17:04 <elliott> pikhq_: Will eight of them fit?
23:17:10 <elliott> I'd worry that the CPUs would be too tightly packed.
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23:17:22 <elliott> Erm, right, point still stands.
23:17:28 <elliott> You could lose the second fan probably, but still...
23:18:00 <pikhq_> The CPU slots are fairly well spread-out.
23:18:10 <elliott> lets buy it together and colocate it :}
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23:19:29 <elliott> pikhq_: so we just need forty people who can contribute a thousand bucks each
23:20:50 <pikhq_> It amuses me that it has more space in RAM than some SSDs offer.
23:20:51 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
23:21:46 <pikhq_> ... Waaait, fucked up the RAM. Lemme fix that.
23:22:16 <pikhq_> DDR2? What is this noise!
23:22:38 <pikhq_> Yes, I really found DDR2 8GB RAM.
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23:27:56 <pikhq_> With, uh, 13.5 ns latency on the RAM.
23:29:55 <pikhq_> That's the fastest 8GiB RAM.
23:36:14 <pikhq_> The best possible latency in DDR3 is 8.4 ns.
23:37:00 <pikhq_> No, wait, you can get better.
23:45:24 <elliott> pikhq_: If -vf yadif makes interlacing worse what does that mean.
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23:46:53 <CakeProp1et> anyone have any idea what -lm would be referring to?
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23:54:41 <CakeProp1et> so, anyone have some open source projects that need contributions?
23:55:49 <coppro> also what happened to your h
23:56:32 <CakeProp1et> that wasn't my actual question. I was asking about particular projects that "you" are working on.
23:56:48 <CakeProp1et> not "hi gaiz, do open source projects exist?"
23:57:43 <elliott> well mcmap needs updating to the latest protocol >:)
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23:59:12 <CakeProp1et> hmm, can you list open source contributions as work experience in a resume? I never really considered it, but it seems reasonable.
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