00:00:04 <oerjan> !haskell let pick a = System.Random.randomRIO (0, length a - 1) >>= return . (a !!) in do {len <- pick [2..10]; putStrLn =<< (Control.Monad.replicateM len $ pick ['A'..'Z'])}
00:00:21 <EgoBot> Interpreter acro deleted.
00:00:31 <oerjan> !addinterp acro haskell let pick a = System.Random.randomRIO (0, length a - 1) >>= return . (a !!) in do {len <- pick [2..10]; putStrLn =<< (Control.Monad.replicateM len $ pick ['A'..'Z'])}
00:00:31 <EgoBot> Interpreter acro installed.
00:01:04 <oerjan> now it works with the initial expression compile
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00:02:47 <oerjan> actually i think expression = ghci command there
00:02:59 <EgoBot> map :: (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]
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01:43:24 * pikhq is still amazed that there was a consumer 1080i recording media in 1998.
01:44:42 <olsner> but we only allow the 100-continue expectation.
01:46:13 <pikhq> Not to mention that the damned thing is competitive with Bluray.
01:47:02 <pikhq> (modulo h.264, which did not exist at the time)
02:14:28 -!- augur has joined.
02:23:32 <Gregor> pikhq: How can YOU help FYTHE? :P
02:24:06 <pikhq> Gregor: By performing MAGIC on it.
02:24:47 <Gregor> How about by performing magic WITH it?
02:25:08 <pikhq> Whatever happened to Plof, anyways?
02:25:42 <Gregor> It's still on the docket >_>
02:25:56 * tswett looks up how many of Gregor there are.
02:26:11 <Gregor> I'm starting to think that both Fythe and <major language implemented on Fythe> will be better if they're not implemented/designed by the same person :P
02:26:12 <tswett> This web site claims that there is 1 or fewer of him.
02:26:49 <pikhq> Well, I could *probably* make Fythe better by figuring out why fastjit-tests segfaults.
02:27:16 <pikhq> In collector.c, line 117.
02:27:55 <Gregor> REMOVE THAT LINE -> PROBLEM SOLVED
02:29:24 <pikhq> That would be a syntax error.
02:31:14 <pikhq> Well, that's new, at least.
02:31:28 <pikhq> If I compile without optimisation it segfaults somewhere *else*.
02:31:42 <pikhq> At 0x0000003c46c84bb1 in libc.
02:32:10 <pikhq> Somewhere in the evaluation of the macro GO() from fastjit/fastjit-tests.h
02:34:24 <pikhq> fastjit/fastjit-tests works just fine, though. I'm inclined to think something in your build system is fubared. :P
02:34:53 <pikhq> Oh, well, no wonder it does. That's... A stale file.
02:43:46 <Gregor> Aha ... for some reason I can't call GGGGC_collect from main()
02:44:47 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
02:46:50 <Gregor> It was in a GGGGC change.
02:47:24 <Gregor> OH FFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
02:47:42 <pikhq> It was revision 393; "Function space: Now with free()!"
02:48:05 <Gregor> pikhq: Nope, that's not it, although that revision did create a segfault :P
02:48:22 <Gregor> My "epiphany" is that I made PUSH and POP unsuitable for pushing globals.
02:48:27 -!- CakeProphet has set topic: shit is wicked bananas i am telling you | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
02:53:38 <olsner> what's this ggggc thing?
02:54:25 <Patashu> garbage garbage garbage garbage collection
02:55:35 <pikhq> Gregor's G-filled G-filled Garbage Collector.
02:56:33 <Gregor> Gregor's Generalpurpose Generational Garbage Collector
02:56:47 <Gregor> I was thinking if I made it parallel, since I'm cheating with "purpose" any way, I could make it GGPGPGC
02:57:14 <Gregor> Or maybe add "portable" to make it GPGPGPGC
02:58:39 <Gregor> What's it for? It's a garbage collector ...
02:58:57 <Gregor> I'm using it in Fythe, but I didn't write it for Fythe, I wrote it to see if I could write a GC :P
02:59:04 <Gregor> (I did adapt it for Fythe)
02:59:13 <olsner> did it turn out you could? or is that yet to be seen?
03:03:30 <Gregor> It's not as fast as Java's :(
03:04:16 <pikhq> That it's not an utter embarassment next to Java's is itself an achievement.
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03:07:08 <Gregor> On memory-intensive tests it easily outstrips Boehm and manual memory management, but I don't really know where else to go in terms of speed >_>
03:07:50 <pikhq> Does Boehm usually beat out manual memory management?
03:08:06 <olsner> I guess a big part of the problem is to find a set of benchmarks that is a good balance between real-world similarity and giving your particular gc better results than the competition
03:08:30 <pikhq> olsner: So far, he's just been using Boehm's gcbench.
03:09:02 <pikhq> Which, though heavily artificial, is at least not designed in favor of his collector.
03:09:11 <pikhq> (though his collector might be designed in favor of it. :P)
03:11:44 <olsner> hmm, you might also want to balance in tricky benchmarks that you use to make your collector better
03:14:19 <Gregor> pikhq: Boehm infrequently beats out manual memory management.
03:14:43 <Gregor> Also, I'm using both GCBench and binary_trees (which are similar but not identical)
03:15:06 <Gregor> pikhq: BTW thanks for leading me down the right road to fix fastjit-tests, it's working now ;P
03:16:48 <pikhq> Gregor: Still... Is there any real reason to actually use malloc and free anymore?
03:17:40 <pikhq> Mmkay, good. So I don't have to feel bad about my attitude towards it being "GARBAGE COLLECT ALL THE THINGS".
03:18:06 <Gregor> Yes, from the instant main initializes the GC, everything should be in GC.
03:18:37 <pikhq> Nonono, I mean as in "never use malloc in new programs."
03:19:39 <pikhq> *Obviously*, if you're already using a garbage collector, it's probably a bad idea to also use malloc. What with that really screwing things up if you have things pointing between both heaps.
03:22:14 -!- ray24 has joined.
03:22:26 <ray24> what would you do if a girl farted on your face?
03:22:29 -!- Lymia has joined.
03:22:50 <Patashu> Stick my arm up the girl's rear and out her mouth
03:23:11 <ray24> I highly doubt you'd do that
03:23:22 <Patashu> I collect girls impaled on my arms
03:23:48 <olsner> but "my arm" singular implies that you only have one
03:23:57 <olsner> you can't be doing too well collecting them
03:24:07 <Patashu> No one wants to sell me their arms :(
03:24:21 <oerjan> what are ye all up in arms for
03:25:24 <oerjan> Patashu: that cannot be right, i hear arms dealing is all the rage
03:25:55 <Patashu> I tried to take some arms off of people but turns out they had a right to bear them :(
03:25:57 <Patashu> Got some prison time for that
03:27:52 <ray24> honestly, I didn't believe girls fart
03:29:01 <Robdgreat> well, some eat thunder and fart lightning
03:29:06 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure this is mandatory http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_XU9x8G7khv0/S7IIbe-yBJI/AAAAAAAAN9k/NDYV6HOP-Y0/s1600/second-amendment_bits.jpg
03:29:58 <CakeProphet> ...wtf are we even talking about right now.
03:30:08 <CakeProphet> aren't we supposed to be doing Mad Computer Science?
03:30:17 <ray24> <ray24> what would you do if a girl farted on your face?
03:32:30 <CakeProphet> In what situation could I possibly be in that would cause this to happen.
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03:35:19 <Gregor> To quote Monty Python, "sit on my faaace, and tell me that you love me!"
03:42:38 <pikhq> Hrm. Fun fact. Debian doesn't seem to package the cord library in Boehm GC.
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03:52:12 <ray24> What happened was this topic came up at starbucks
03:52:14 <ray24> i was with my friends
03:52:38 <ray24> I stated that girls don't fart
03:52:51 <ray24> and she said did right at my face
03:53:18 <Gregor> And you decided to resolve this dilemma by asking for the appropriate reaction on a channel you've never been to? :P
03:53:41 <ray24> I'm just a bit traumatized...
03:53:45 <ray24> Sorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry
03:55:30 <ray24> I dont think I'll ever feel the same about girls
03:55:34 <ray24> Thought they were pure
03:56:32 <ray24> of my 18 years of life.. i've not once heard/seen/smell the fart of a girl
03:57:48 <zzo38> I realized that the harmonic seventh chord is something else I have figured out by myself before I learned what it is called. It is basically linear: 4 5 6 7 8
03:58:49 <ray24> do you have the actual instrument
03:59:06 <ray24> Then hell with you BRO!
03:59:07 <zzo38> I do not have the actual instrument.
03:59:16 <ray24> Hey man > = ) why dont you go get one
03:59:37 <zzo38> It is not an instrument I am describing here
03:59:50 <ray24> Then what EXACTLY is being described here?
04:00:54 <ray24> Dude that's like the most random thing ever
04:03:13 <ray24> yo zzo38 I bet I could outdo you in harmonics
04:04:07 <ray24> I'm gonna take your harmonic chords
04:04:10 <ray24> and Im gonna turn it into my rap
04:12:14 <ray24> They're a scale of harmonic integers bro
04:12:40 <oerjan> ray24: be careful. zzo38 has been known to try to get us to compose music in strange scales
04:13:51 <ray24> i'll do it if you pay me
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04:16:46 <zzo38> The numbers 4 5 6 7 8 could be seen as scale degrees in a linear temperament I guess. They are not scale degrees in any normal way. If you have a frequency called "f" then you play the tones of frequencies (4f,5f,6f,7f,8f) is what I mean by that.
04:19:32 <zzo38> Program your computer to play those tones and then you can hear it by yourself too.
04:19:43 <CakeProphet> so 4 would just be the second octave over f, and 5 would be...... major third?
04:19:47 <ray24> how do you become a millionaire
04:19:55 <zzo38> CakeProphet: Yes, a just major third.
04:20:31 <zzo38> (As opposed to an equal-tempered major third, which is slightly different)
04:20:41 <zzo38> CakeProphet: It is a just perfect fifth.
04:21:31 <CakeProphet> bleh, no way I'll be able to figure out the rest. :P Except 8, which is just the third octave.
04:21:58 <CakeProphet> I think you could leave out the octaves and still have the same chord.
04:22:57 <CakeProphet> since octaves don't really contribute to the quality of a chord.
04:23:11 <ray24> I got a trumpet but I cannot figure out how to apply anything you guys are saying!
04:23:24 <CakeProphet> I think most trumpets are equal temperament right?
04:23:56 <zzo38> The 7 is what is called the "harmonic seventh" (I only learned today that it is called that)
04:24:01 <ray24> I think they have equilaterals
04:24:20 <CakeProphet> zzo38: yes a harmonic seventh is the seventh on the harmonic minor. There are other sevenths as well.
04:24:48 <CakeProphet> don't ask me why. I guess were just like "hey this minor scale sucks let's make three of them!"
04:26:00 <CakeProphet> because the harmonic minor scale is the melodic minor scale with a raised seventh. To add more tension to the seventh because it's a semitone away from octave, whereas a minor seventh is a whole tone away from octave.
04:26:31 <ray24> You're a musical buff
04:26:48 <ray24> are you like beethoven jr
04:26:57 <CakeProphet> I actually cannot play any instrument well.
04:27:01 <zzo38> Most instruments are made for equal temperament. This has various advantages, although just intonation is more "pure" and is far better in case of music written to use just intonation (instead of equal temperament).
04:27:04 <CakeProphet> I just spend a lot of time on the internet learning things.
04:27:16 <ray24> have you ever touched an instrument
04:27:30 <zzo38> CakeProphet: I know all those things about minor scales, but the "harmonic seventh" I refer to here has nothing to do with that as far as I can tell.
04:27:34 <CakeProphet> yes, I used to play trombone in middle school, and I learned guitar in high school. Oh, and I took piano lessons as a wee lad.
04:27:58 <ray24> can you tap dance on top of a piano
04:28:01 <ray24> sorry really random
04:28:23 <CakeProphet> zzo38: dunno, I could ask one of my friends. He's a music major.
04:28:41 <ray24> so cakeprophet is like a self help book
04:29:18 <ray24> bet you haven't learned anything from me yet
04:29:32 <CakeProphet> I do plan on applying my music theory knowledge when I get around to making a signal processing library in Haskell.
04:29:41 <CakeProphet> ray24: not yet, but you could always change that.
04:29:48 <ray24> whoa, haskell ... that's top notch stuff
04:30:09 <zzo38> That is, just intonation is a rational temperament. Equal temperament is irrational temperament. Equal temperament has advantage you can transpose into any key and play any chord; all chord are equally bad; you can make music with a lot of chord and modulations and stuff. Just intonation has advantage that good chords are exactly correct and you have proper ratios to everything.
04:30:25 <zzo38> Therefore, I recommend that whenever you play music, try, if possible, to play in the kind of temperament that it was written for.
04:30:36 <ray24> Is it possible to reduce 50% of those words in that paragraph and still hold it's intended meaning??
04:30:40 <lambdabot> "haskell haskell haskell haskell haskell haskell haskell haskell haskell ha...
04:30:51 <zzo38> ray24: Possibly. Maybe.
04:32:37 <oerjan> it _might_ make it a little easier to follow some of the conversations here :P
04:33:00 <ray24> Program isn't a challenge. the only challenge is my motivation!
04:33:08 <CakeProphet> though it would make sense, since you're on a channel about esoteric programming languages (and mostly about random off-topic things, but generally centered on computer science or mathematical topics)
04:33:26 <ray24> I came here I thought esoteric was hip hop
04:33:38 <oerjan> ...that's a new one :P
04:33:54 <ray24> esoteric is a pretty cool hiphop
04:34:01 <CakeProphet> I'm a big fan of The Roots. Black Thought is a beast.
04:34:09 <ray24> You should get into esoteric
04:34:22 <zzo38> If you read the TOPIC message, then you would have realized that the TOPIC message is often nonsense and doesn't really help much (unless you want to see the log files).
04:34:42 <ray24> Yeah I got the topic thing on auto-hide
04:34:47 <ray24> since it's really distracting to have it on
04:35:07 <ray24> you know, I'm focused typing here and there's something there... can't have it all at once
04:35:49 <CakeProphet> ray24: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html
04:35:54 <CakeProphet> This book will allow you to become a wizard.
04:36:12 * pikhq notes that the read and write system calls are a royal pain to use.
04:36:25 <pikhq> Efficient as hell in certain cases, but a royal PITA.
04:36:29 <CakeProphet> it only requires that you read it with an inquiring mind and a stalwart soul.
04:36:31 <ray24> will becoming a wizard make me a mark zuckerberg?
04:36:48 <zzo38> OK. That is understood. (I use a different IRC client, which displays the TOPIC message when joining the channel but it scrolls off of the screen as soon as there is more text. This is in agreement with the RFC.)
04:36:49 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/WJcG You see? Royal PITA.
04:36:56 <pikhq> (just copies stdin to stdout)
04:37:12 <ray24> This is the actual book from mitpress?
04:37:57 <ray24> if i read that book, will I develop stronger comprehension?
04:38:10 <CakeProphet> if you read it and understand it, then yes.
04:38:19 <ray24> what if I comprehend before reading it
04:38:23 <CakeProphet> though I guess it would help to have some background beforehand.
04:38:38 <CakeProphet> ray24: then you fucking psychic and I am afraid of you.
04:38:44 <ray24> I really am a psychic
04:39:22 <CakeProphet> ray24: uh, okay, then explain how a Lisp interpreter works.
04:39:43 <ray24> I need some exposure first
04:39:58 <ray24> yeah you'e a psychic cuz
04:41:17 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Fucking around at random.
04:41:31 <pikhq> Also, lemme re-paste that.
04:41:31 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/KbVE
04:41:36 <pikhq> Now it strictly conforms!
04:43:34 <ray24> if i read that book and understood
04:43:41 <ray24> what should i be able to accomplsih?
04:44:02 <pikhq> I think this is the first time I've seen strictly conforming POSIX code, for that matter.
04:44:27 <CakeProphet> you will become an initiate wizard. And you will be able to write code in slightly antiquated languages, which means you can tell a computer to do anything that a computer is capable of doing.
04:45:46 <CakeProphet> but then you could start developing your mad hacker cred further, or whatever it is that you want to do with your newfound powers.
04:46:16 <ray24> are you serious about this
04:46:21 <ray24> will i develop these powers
04:46:30 <ray24> bcuz I'm really gonna read it if so.
04:46:32 <pikhq> Has anyone else here ever written a strictly conforming POSIX program?
04:47:55 <ray24> ANDDDDDD that would be no.
04:48:44 <oerjan> ray24: CakeProphet may be slightly non-literal about the wizard bit
04:48:58 <ray24> yeah man i dont want to have false hopes and stuff
04:49:12 <ray24> i wanna do it so I could hack computers some day
04:49:21 <ray24> for the greater good of society
04:49:35 <CakeProphet> pikhq: I honestly don't know anything about POSIX standards
04:50:05 <ray24> I think IM gonna go jump cows right now...
04:50:09 <ray24> wait.. im gonna read this book
04:54:08 <ray24> http://www.esoterichiphop.com/
04:59:12 <ray24> I cannot believe how much filler words they have in that book
05:00:14 <ray24> maybe I just got a high IQ or something iono!
05:02:17 <CakeProphet> it depends on your definition of filler words. Most words are pretty essential to the meaning of a sentence.
05:03:08 <ray24> they use a lot of general words. ie " framework, structure, organization etc"
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05:03:43 <ray24> repetition won't stimulate much in my mind to be honest
05:03:55 <CakeProphet> ray24: well, since it's the introduction if they used anything less general you would be overwhelmed by specific details.
05:05:25 <ray24> I usually just go straight into the problems
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05:10:05 <ray24> So a lisp represents inputs that you feed it
05:10:22 <ray24> maybe a lisp could also interpret my algorithm
05:11:01 <ray24> I wasn't a programmer 1 hour ago.. but I might be a programmer in the next 24 hours
05:13:55 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
05:14:11 <oerjan> no lisp that i can see
05:17:55 <ray24> I'll become a good programmer within a month
05:18:02 <ray24> Not even a challenge
05:18:20 <ray24> Seems pretty easy so far
05:19:45 <ray24> Brb I'm gonna hop the hence behind my yard and jump the cows
05:19:49 * oerjan tries to resist linking to a certain peter norvig page
05:19:50 <ray24> hehe they're backk!
05:24:20 <oerjan> the cow jumped over the moon
05:35:33 <pikhq_> I should really stop doing pointless shit.
05:36:55 <pikhq_> Such as "golfing executable size for (nearly POSIX-compliant) cat whilst only relying on POSIX features."
05:46:19 <CakeProphet> the best way to do that is to write it in assembly of course.
05:46:35 <CakeProphet> but won't the executable be different sizes on different architectures?
05:47:53 <pikhq_> I'm demanding that it be a strictly conformant POSIX C program.
05:48:36 <CakeProphet> and I guess you're going by the executable size on your local machine?
05:49:31 <pikhq_> For an i686 machine using musl.
05:51:00 <pikhq_> I am easily amused by oddly specific tasks.
05:51:31 <pikhq_> http://sprunge.us/ZHdQ Nasty, but strictly conformant.
05:52:28 <pikhq_> And it is nearly a perfect POSIX cat (it does not *quite* comply to the requirements for argument handling)
05:53:34 <pikhq_> And yes, read and write are *really* nasty.
05:53:43 <pikhq_> But that's the cost you pay for not using stdio.
05:54:01 <oerjan> ...it would be amusing if compliant POSIX programs cannot be written in compliant POSIX C
05:54:14 <zzo38> What is nasty with read and write?
05:54:36 <pikhq_> zzo38: Note that, to do it *right*, you have to retry if you get EINTR.
05:55:15 <ray24> How do you to modify operands?
05:58:47 <pikhq_> So far, I'm down to 1680 bytes.
06:01:02 <pikhq_> Incidentally, this is *obnoxiously* slow.
06:01:42 <pikhq_> Of course, having to enter the kernel twice per character will do that.
06:04:13 <ray24> What is pikhq_ talking about
06:04:22 <pikhq_> ray24: A lot of craziness.
06:04:40 <ray24> ur craziness elicits no response from your intended audience
06:04:57 <pikhq_> Because some days, I like to spend an hour doing something that is literally pointless.
06:05:29 <ray24> how many forms of entertainment do you have?
06:05:47 <pikhq_> *Hooray*, taking 5 minutes to cat 578 megabytes!
06:05:53 <pikhq_> ray24: Rather a lot, actually.
06:06:12 <pikhq_> Depends on the sense of "hacker" that you use.
06:06:26 <ray24> break codes.. conduct illegal stuff
06:06:36 <ray24> adding virus to mp3 files
06:06:41 <ray24> corrupting sys files
06:06:50 <pikhq_> No, but not for lack of skills.
06:07:11 <ray24> i think it's possible
06:10:03 <ray24> you know what would be a great invention that i thought of
06:10:27 <CakeProphet> it might be possible through some insane stack buffer overflow exploit on certain media players... but that sounds highly improbable due to the nature of lossy compression.
06:10:48 <pikhq_> CakeProphet: It'd most likely be a buffer exploit in the parser.
06:11:09 <pikhq_> That sort of thing is *far* more common than you'd ever like to think.
06:11:33 <pikhq_> Even happens in believed to be *good* software.
06:11:41 <CakeProphet> I will continue thinking that it is uncommon for my own mental safety.
06:11:43 <pikhq_> (see that libpng buffer overflow a few years back)
06:11:58 <CakeProphet> right, but has it been known to happen with mp3s?
06:12:28 <CakeProphet> I guess it's similar in principle really. The fact that you can embed code into any kind of data format is pretty scary in itself.
06:12:44 <pikhq_> You must remember, though, that C is commonly used, and with C you get a very, very high risk of buffer overflows.
06:14:54 <CakeProphet> An ecoder takes an input signal and turns it into kittens. The ambiguity of this definition is intentional and allows for a wide variety of behaviors.
06:15:19 <ray24> how long did it took CakeProphet to finish that book?
06:16:16 <pikhq_> Clearly, it codeth dens.
06:16:30 <CakeProphet> yes, it codes an input signal as a comfortable living space.
06:17:02 <CakeProphet> I guess ecoder could be a coder that is environmentally friendly.
06:18:30 <CakeProphet> pikhq_: so what is the best way to avoid buffer overflows in C exactly?
06:21:54 <CakeProphet> hmmm, apparently the Twilight hack works by giving lengthy name for Epona and causing a stack buffer overflow.
06:28:50 <pikhq_> CakeProphet: Don't use C.
06:30:05 <oerjan> maybe trusting trust was a digression, maybe the _real_ unremovable vulnerability was C itself...
06:34:21 * pikhq_ is probably far too good at making things pointlessly small.
06:35:09 <pikhq_> Hmm. cat is larger than shish.
06:35:33 <pikhq_> Admittedly, shish has the advantage of assuming Linux x86.
06:40:35 <pikhq_> ... And possesses the minimal functionality necessary to count as a "shell".
06:41:24 <pikhq_> Nope. No kebabs. Only cd and environment handling.
06:42:05 <pikhq_> And command execution.
06:42:25 <oerjan> those commands better behave, or else
06:42:42 <pikhq_> And that's comprehensive.
06:42:59 <pikhq_> You may now be frightened.
06:43:12 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
06:43:26 <pikhq_> Thank you for compliance.
06:56:28 <zzo38> It is possible to still write programs in C that do not have buffer overflows, if you are careful.
06:56:49 <pikhq_> zzo38: Yes, it's possible if you have a divine level of care.
06:57:14 <pikhq_> And that leaves out all known programmers.
06:57:19 <zzo38> In the case of Twilight hack, it doesn't matter though because you cannot overflow the length of the name in the normal game.
06:57:42 <zzo38> And other programs are not supposed to be used to create files for this game
06:58:22 <pikhq_> The whole *deal* with buffer overflows is that you can't make assumptions that the input will be well-formed.
06:58:29 <pikhq_> If you could, gets would be a reasonable function.
06:58:32 <zzo38> pikhq_: When security is important, I do it carefully.
06:59:25 <zzo38> I know gets is not a very good function but they did correct that and other ones by making new functions that do not have this problems.
07:00:14 <zzo38> Such as: fgets, snprintf, etc.
07:08:24 <zzo38> TeX is very secure (as long as you use the One True TeX; not e-TeX, pdfTeX, LuaTeX, XeTeX, etc) if you can simply disable the commands you do not want in the format file by undefining those control sequences (and ensuring you have no other control sequences or active characters with the meanings that they had). I wrote a program accessing TeX with HTTP forms and if you try to "improve" it you have a chance of introducing security holes!
07:10:42 <Patashu> Is it possible to determine at compile time where overflows could potentially happen
07:10:55 <Patashu> I know there's a C extension, Cyclone or something, that does it
07:11:18 <pikhq_> Patashu: Halting problem.
07:11:37 <zzo38> Yes I have read about Cyclone.
07:11:38 * Patashu goes flying into the horizon
07:11:39 <pikhq_> Best you can do is heuristics.
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07:44:17 <pikhq> I'm afraid that all we're getting is mojibake, Albibeno.
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07:45:37 <pikhq> Would the server please start coöperating?
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08:02:11 <CakeProphet> oh okay. <=> doesn't do what I think it does apparently.
08:13:24 <CakeProphet> !perl print '99 bottles of beer' <=> '20 bottles of beer'
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08:15:03 <CakeProphet> !perl print '99 bottles of light beer' == '99 bottles of lager'
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08:49:49 <ray24> Whoa CakeProphet is still here
08:53:00 <Lymia> !print '9999999 tons of gold' '10000000 grams of copper'
08:53:10 <Lymia> !perl '9999999 tons of gold' < '10000000 grams of copper'
08:53:20 <Lymia> !perl print '9999999 tons of gold' < '10000000 grams of copper'
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09:15:10 <CakeProphet> Lymia: yeah, obviously it's only interested in the number part.
09:17:18 <CakeProphet> so it just finds the first number-like entity and uses that.
09:18:03 <CakeProphet> so basically don't ever rely on that feature.
09:19:22 <Lymia> !perl print "asdfasdf" == "asdfasdf"
09:19:25 <Lymia> !perl print "asdfasdf" == "asdfasff"
09:20:18 <CakeProphet> yeah I think in the case where there is no number they're both zero
09:20:50 <CakeProphet> !perl print '99 problem' + 'none of them are bitches'
09:21:36 <fizzie> Non-numeric srings are indeed 0.
09:21:46 <twice11> CakeProphet: There is documentation available about strings, numbers and implicit conversions in perl.
09:21:49 <CakeProphet> Lymia: but yeah, for stringy operators you want eq, ne, lt, gt, and cmp
09:21:54 <fizzie> Anyway, you're supposed to use the eq and...
09:22:21 <twice11> !perl print "0, but true" + 0
09:22:34 <twice11> "perl print "TRUE!" if "0, but true"
09:22:42 <twice11> !perl print "TRUE!" if "0, but true"
09:23:02 <twice11> so this is an expression which is numerically zero, but logically true.
09:23:15 <twice11> because every non-empty string is true...
09:23:24 <Lymia> Is this golf usable material?
09:23:35 <CakeProphet> twice11: yes, I understand how Perl works. Unless you're speaking to someone else, then I guess it's fine to continue.
09:24:10 <CakeProphet> Lymia: it could be in some very specific situation. But I doubt it.
09:24:11 <twice11> CakeProhet: Sorry, it looked like you were experimenting with the comparison operators...
09:24:37 <CakeProphet> oh, I was. I was just experimenting with how the numeric context worked. Otherwise I had it down. No worries.
09:24:55 <Lymia> !perl print '$99' == '$199'
09:25:07 <twice11> Lymia: Using implicit conversion from string to number ignoring everything after the first valid number occurs sometimes in golf.
09:25:26 <Lymia> !perl print '$9242'+0
09:25:58 <CakeProphet> Lymia: shame, it really should work with currency symbols.
09:26:30 <Lymia> !perl print ' 9242'+0
09:26:36 <Lymia> !perl print 'wat 9242'+0
09:26:41 <CakeProphet> granted, any kind of software that handles money should not be relying on Perl's numeric conversion mechanism.
09:26:47 <twice11> !perl print '$1' < '€1' # how should this be decided...
09:27:08 <Lymia> twice11, 1 == 1 therefore false
09:27:13 <CakeProphet> twice11: well, I didn't mean it should try to /compare/ currencies precisely.
09:27:18 <Lymia> !perl print ' 9242 25334 '
09:27:22 <Lymia> !perl print ' 9242 25334 '+0
09:27:41 <twice11> Lymia: perl is just doing atof() on that string.
09:28:13 <twice11> It ignores whitespaces in the beginning, parses a floating point number, and aborts at the first invalid character.
09:30:26 <Lymia> !perl print ' 9242.25334 '+0
09:30:45 <Lymia> !perl print 1.0+1.0+1.0+1.0+1.0 eq 5
09:31:25 <CakeProphet> when it converts the literal into a number or whatever.
09:31:34 <CakeProphet> so it's just 1 when it converts to a string.
09:31:48 <Lymia> !perl print 1.1+1.1+1.1+1.1+1.1+1.1+1.1+1.1+1.1+1.1 eq 11
09:31:54 <Lymia> !perl print 1.1+1.1+1.1+1.1+1.1+1.1+1.1+1.1+1.1+1.1 == 11
09:32:43 <Lymia> !perl print 1.1 . 1.1
09:34:35 <twice11> In fact, "perl print 1.1.1.1" prints four charcters of "\x01".
09:34:58 <twice11> Like the binary representation of an IPv4 address...
09:35:26 <twice11> Works even with a different number of components.
09:35:58 <twice11> !perl print 0x48.0x45.0x4C.0x4C.0x4F
09:36:11 <twice11> huh? not with hex numbers...
09:36:34 <twice11> !perl print 72.64.76.76.79
09:36:41 <twice11> !perl print 72.69.76.76.79
09:36:57 <twice11> seems EgoBot kills spaces.
09:37:44 <CakeProphet> !perl print 32 . 32 . 32 . 32 . 32 . 32 . 32 . 32 . 64
09:38:19 <twice11> With the spaces inbetween, the dot is just the concatenation operator...
09:40:51 <twice11> CakeProphet: man perldata, search for "Version Strings"
09:41:10 <twice11> Note "If there are two or more dots in the literal, the leading "v" may be omitted"
09:44:28 <twice11> !perl print (printf "%vd" v65.72)
09:44:29 <EgoBot> Bareword found where operator expected at /tmp/input.23532 line 1, near ""%vd" v65"
09:44:41 <twice11> !perl print (printf "%vd",v65.72)
09:45:01 <fizzie> !perl print keys %{{v64 => "hah"}}
09:45:21 <fizzie> !perl print keys %{{v64.64 => "hah"}}
09:46:56 <EgoBot> Bareword found where operator expected at /tmp/input.23924 line 1, near ""%vd" v65"
09:47:20 <twice11> !perl print (sprintf "%vd",v65.72)
09:47:37 <twice11> OK, that's my fault. I mixed up printf and sprintf, causing the extra 1.
09:48:07 <fizzie> !perl print v64 => "stuff";
09:48:16 <fizzie> !perl print v64.64 => "stuff";
09:48:23 <fizzie> !perl print v64.64, "stuff";
09:48:28 <fizzie> !perl print v64, "stuff";
09:48:29 <EgoBot> No comma allowed after filehandle at /tmp/input.24281 line 1.
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10:00:42 <Sgeo> Uh, Chrome? I'd like to see my saved passwords now, kthx
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10:07:01 <twice11> Sgeo: Wrench->Preferences->Personal stuff->Manage Saved Passwords...->Click a line and "show"
10:07:35 <Sgeo> There is no "show"
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10:08:15 <twice11> If I select one entry in the list, a "Show" button appears after the big dots.
10:08:23 <Sgeo> Found it, need to hover over the right side of the password box
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11:12:55 <Lymia> Scrollback tells me this: wtf perl
11:13:18 <olsner> you needed scrollback to know that?
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11:46:20 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/hxg39/ny_times_schools_revamping_their_computer_science/c1z6q17
11:46:20 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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12:19:30 <Patashu> Is there a 'list of categories'
12:20:00 <Patashu> Not to be confused with Category:Category-theoretic categories.
12:20:06 <Patashu> I put a category in your category of categories
12:20:26 <Patashu> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Contents I got a category about contents, so there's content in your category
12:22:21 <Sgeo> Bottommonium deserves to be the name for something made out of bottom quarks
12:22:25 <Patashu> my butt is made up of bottomonium
12:22:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, as indeed it is, being a bound state of a bottom quark and a bottom antiquark.
12:23:23 <Phantom_Hoover> It appears to be known by boring people as the upsilon meson.
12:25:30 <Sgeo> Why don't they annihilate?
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12:32:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Particle-antiparticle interactions aren't as simple as "they meet and go poof".
12:33:56 <olsner> what do they do then? meet and have a cup of tea?
12:34:39 <Phantom_Hoover> They go poof in a multitude of different ways, or sometimes go poof after flying around for a bit.
12:34:41 <Patashu> It takes several nanoseconds to convince an antiparticle he doesn't exist
12:41:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, it seems to be largely due to QCD being crazy weird.
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13:06:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Who is this Ycros fellow. He seems like a frangible chap.
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13:15:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Another, fundamentally incorrect, but nonetheless useful, way
13:15:57 <Phantom_Hoover> to distinguish the twins is to imagine that despite their genetic dif-
13:15:57 <Phantom_Hoover> ferences, they are both avid coee drinkers. If they each spend the
13:15:59 <Phantom_Hoover> entire time between events D and R drinking coee, L experiences
13:16:01 <Phantom_Hoover> no trouble at all, but M nds that he spills his coee all over him-
13:16:03 <Phantom_Hoover> self at event T. After all, his spaceship suers a huge acceleration at
13:16:05 <Phantom_Hoover> that time. L experiences no such trauma. This explanation is fun-
13:16:07 <Phantom_Hoover> damentally flawed because if we allow for gravitational forces, there
13:16:09 <Phantom_Hoover> are many ways to construct twin paradoxes which do not involve
13:16:21 <Phantom_Hoover> OK this is possibly the best derivation of special relativity.
13:18:38 <Phantom_Hoover> It doesn't pull any punches with the maths, though: that's just a footnote.
13:19:12 <Sgeo> Is the math skimmable?
13:19:25 <Sgeo> For some reason, I really don't like applied math
13:19:55 <Phantom_Hoover> I sought it out specifically because I wanted the derivations without handwaving.
13:21:24 <Sgeo> I think I'll live
13:21:55 <Sgeo> Any of it gets too tedious for me to bother really looking at, I can just nod my head I think
13:22:31 <Sgeo> Although I don't understand matrices all that perfectly, I still think I'll live
13:23:06 * Sgeo wants a similar paper for GR though
13:24:57 <Sgeo> I can always skim the harder looking math and just nod my head, right?
13:25:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Consider that GR isn't even solved in most non-trivial cases.
13:25:37 <Sgeo> Oh, huh, this has excersize problems
13:25:55 <Sgeo> Not going to do them for now, but maybe at a later date
13:26:47 <Sgeo> Can it be brute-forced somehow? I don't quite understand what is meant by "not solved"
13:29:48 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solutions_of_the_Einstein_field_equations
13:32:14 <Sgeo> 14 equations for 20 unknowns, doesn't that just mean there are an infinite number of solutions that fit those equation? Is it the case that some of those are wrong?
13:55:55 <Sgeo> I think I'll soon ask a question on /r/askscience that sounds like a weird question, but hopefully it isn't
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14:55:49 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/hxro3/when_i_touch_a_wall_what_color_is_the_light/
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15:26:03 <Sgeo> I made the mistake of checking to see if /r/astrology exists
15:26:11 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/astrology/comments/h6lgc/a_serious_discussion_about_astrology_as_a_science/
15:31:29 <Sgeo> I'm now mentally trying to work out a way to test astrology
15:32:42 <Sgeo> Does Astrology attempt to say what a particular period of your life will be like based on your birth date? If not, ignore this. if so:
15:33:19 <Sgeo> Do it backwards. Attempt, without looking at a star chart, to guess what planets will be in what houses when in your life, and then see if reality matches
15:33:42 <Sgeo> This should eliminate any tendency to see "Oh, your life was like this" an then think back to corresponding events.
15:33:54 <Sgeo> I just remembered that there's an ex-astrology person here.
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17:33:14 <Vorpal> the difference between stock 2.6.32 on ubuntu lucid and vanilla (mostly, needed one apparmor related patch) 2.6.39.1 is... astonishing. Utterly astonishing. For s2disk and resume from disk I have a 18x-20x speed up. Measured both by doing a clean reboot then suspending to disk right after logging in.
17:33:27 <Vorpal> on clean boot I have a 5-10x speedup
17:34:16 <Vorpal> note that the kernel config for both were quite similar when it comes to making most things modules.
17:36:05 <pikhq> Yeah, there was a lot of improvements in there.
17:36:23 <pikhq> Including a few patches labeled "This is utter magic."
17:38:11 <Vorpal> pikhq, one thing that could help is that dm-crypto seems to use both cores for decrypting now. Though the results of my tests on that are not fully conclusive. It was definitely single threaded in 2.6.32
17:38:33 <pikhq> As in "all of a sudden, the whole thing goes twice as fast" magic, not "we code where mere mortals dare not tread".
17:38:40 <Vorpal> back then kcryptd loaded one core fully when doing cat file.iso > /dev/null. Now both cores are loaded fully by kworkerd sometimes
17:39:17 <Vorpal> pikhq, however 2.6.27 still beats all following kernels when it comes to number of wakeups per second reported in powertop
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17:39:55 <Vorpal> on 2.6.27 I could get down to 5W with monitor on lowest brightness, wlan and bluetooth off, and idle cps
17:40:11 <Vorpal> with 2.6.32 it was around 8 W. On 2.6.39.1 it is 7 W
17:41:04 <Vorpal> culprit seems to be "[kernel scheduler] Load balancing tick" raising number of wakeups per second by 10-20
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17:44:36 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm. resume from disk now says "loading pages and uncompressing" (or so, could be different word order, went to quick for me to memorise it exactly".
17:44:40 <Vorpal> that would explain a lot
17:44:48 <Vorpal> since I have a 5400 RPM disk
17:51:10 <Sgeo> @tell oerjan Do you logread?
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18:45:36 <Sgeo> Googling for closures CPS brings up school closings in Chicago
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19:09:32 <monqy> why are you searching for closures CPS
19:09:43 <monqy> rather than each independently
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20:25:30 <Sgeo> Because I'm wondering if there are any complications to just making _every lambda_ a closure. It sounds inefficient
20:25:58 <Sgeo> Would just the ones that were defined as lambdas in the original source be sufficient?/
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20:31:27 <elliott> I predict CakeProphet is at or past 2282
20:31:27 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
20:31:33 <elliott> I know this because I am psychic
20:33:12 * Sgeo learns of /r/gue
20:34:13 <elliott> wow a reddit where redditors can go beyond pretending they are rational and good argumentors to... pretending that double
20:57:11 * Sgeo finally removes the Newspeak forums from his RSS reader
21:06:44 * Sgeo etermines a way to get a sensible mean from his statistics problem from earlier
21:07:10 <Sgeo> Besides just averaging the results of the experiment as is, which I'm still uncertain as to whether that will give a valid result.
21:08:34 <Sgeo> "Never use the == operator with floating point, it doesnt even work
21:08:53 <Sgeo> I mean, I know that in normal circumstances, == is a bad idea, but
21:08:59 <olsner> wanna see some horrible code? --> http://paste.cplusplus.se/paste.php?id=12264
21:10:47 <olsner> well, I don't know tbh
21:11:02 <olsner> it might be an attempt to call the function pointer data
21:11:34 * Phantom_Hoover links to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLwaPP9cxT4&feature=related just to mess with Sgeo's head.
21:12:37 <Sgeo> o.O that's awesome
21:14:07 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, a function pointer that is not even defined in the structure.
21:14:26 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: indeed!
21:14:56 <elliott> <Sgeo> "Never use the == operator with floating point, it doesn’t even work
21:14:57 <Sgeo> Or is it fraudulent, like the comments suggest? I don't know enough about that sort of glowing, except something to do with black body radiation. I did take the video too literally I think. I assume that for a substance to glow hot, it has to hit a certain temperature, and of course ice cannot exceed 100C. If that's right, then this video is fraudulent
21:15:06 <Sgeo> http://blog.ometer.com/2005/01/15/more-floating-point-fun/
21:15:26 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: some guy who dropped by another channel and "ohai, code no worky, halp plx"
21:15:38 <elliott> but presumably in response to something miguel posted
21:15:48 <Phantom_Hoover> I desire to mock him, unless he is a troll, in which case meh.
21:16:06 <olsner> well, he left, and it's a swedish channel
21:16:13 <elliott> olsner: maybe it's meant to be a union
21:16:18 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I am saddened to say that my brain did not initially report any problems with the video
21:16:21 <elliott> and they're trying to call the function named hiho
21:16:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, TbH, I'm slightly confused by the orange-white glow; induction heating normally makes a violet glow.
21:16:58 <elliott> i would love to have an actual flaming ice cube
21:17:51 <elliott> Sgeo: anyway, wrt bitwise, I suspect it means that == actually tries to do some computation
21:18:06 <elliott> it's from the famous paper what every computer scientist should know about floating point, following the link
21:18:18 <elliott> or have, but then forgot reading it
21:20:50 <Sgeo> Hmm, I think my current naive approach would result in the correct mean, since errors would fly in both directions (assuming normal distribution), but a wrong distribution
21:22:33 <Sgeo> elliott, trying to act like one in SL
21:22:47 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, you realise that noöne without a maths degree understands stats.
21:24:45 <Sgeo> http://youtubedoubler.com/?video1=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D8M5FxI_p5wg&start1=&video2=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DQ7ZUxyLyIao&start2=&authorName=Sgeo does not sound as good as I was hoping
21:25:21 <elliott> that youtubedoubler is shitty anyway
21:25:24 <elliott> it doesnt' wait for them to load
21:25:41 * Phantom_Hoover remembers that he has a Year Of Dicking Around In Physics ahead of him/
21:32:26 <Sgeo> Given a measuring apparatus that is only capable of measuring in such a way that it puts excessive weight on the first few results, and pretending that I know the true distribution to be symmetrical, why wouldn't the errors line up such that I'd get the correct mean?
21:32:59 <Sgeo> Um, I did not adequately describe my measuring apparatus I think
21:34:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, you do realise that I go to a state school which can barely afford to run a photocopier, yes?
21:34:20 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, :(
21:40:22 -!- guy_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:44:08 -!- tombom has joined.
21:44:46 <tombom> hi does anybody remember the name of that programming language for bank software, or have a link to the page about it? the original wbesite appears to be down, but it was on the old turing tarpit geocities page
21:44:56 <tombom> it was written like 200,,,,,560,,150
21:45:33 <tombom> oh god i thought it was called bankstar
21:45:43 <tombom> so i kept googling bankstar and i was one letter off! ugh
21:51:54 -!- Vorpal has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
21:57:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:57:48 <elliott> "The scala build process requires a bootstrap compiler, called "starr" for "stable reference Iforrrrrget", to get the ball rolling."
21:57:56 <elliott> Scala programmers don't understand acronyms.
21:58:45 <tombom> no i think they actually understand them very well
21:59:15 <elliott> Was that a joke or did you not get my joke
22:00:10 <elliott> oklofok: there's a new lang on the esolang wiki that references the grandfather paradox ;D
22:02:45 <Sgeo> I still have yet to contact the company that would currently own BANCstar
22:03:19 <Sgeo> No, just a permanent procrastinator
22:03:25 <Sgeo> I even forgot which company
22:03:28 <Sgeo> I remember tracing it
22:04:17 <zzo38> I think on this Channel some people (including myself) were discussing the example BANCSTAR program and actually managed to figure it out a little bit.
22:04:58 -!- fizzie has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:05:08 <Sgeo> Fidelity, I think
22:05:37 * Sgeo goes to trace it again
22:07:07 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:08:11 <Sgeo> Broadway & Semour -> Micrographic (partially?) 1996
22:08:36 <Sgeo> *Micrographic Services Inc
22:08:38 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:08:55 <zzo38> I cannot find the BANCSTAR program anymore.
22:09:01 <Sgeo> Which still exists
22:09:10 <Sgeo> This makes no sense, and is not what I traced some time ago.
22:09:29 <zzo38> But I remember that we had figured it out before! And I helped with it too.
22:09:56 <Sgeo> BANCstar is now reminding me of SCP-055
22:13:12 <Sgeo> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2010-10-07 http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2010-10-08 http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2010-12-21
22:15:38 <Sgeo> The 2001 article authoritively states that BancSTAR went there
22:15:44 <Sgeo> So that weird imaging thing is not involved
22:16:07 <elliott> I am hereby authoritatively stating that Sgeo does not exist.
22:18:10 * Sgeo breathes deeply as he goes to figure out who to send an email to
22:18:40 <elliott> Sgeo: is this seriously causing you anxiety..........
22:18:54 <Sgeo> I'm a random individual about to email a corporation
22:20:07 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: OuchOuchOuchQuitQuitQuit).
22:21:59 <oerjan> Sgeo: don't worry, _i_ would have collapsed completely before even managing to tell i was anxious
22:22:00 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
22:28:44 <lambdabot> Sgeo: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
22:29:06 <elliott> i wonder what they could be
22:30:13 <oerjan> it is theoretically possible we don't actually know
22:30:25 <Sgeo> "Hello. I'm just curious as to the availability of documentation of BancSTAR."
22:30:37 <Sgeo> That's the email I'm planning on sending
22:31:07 <oerjan> isn't "Hello." a little informal for a corporation.
22:31:52 <olsner> proper formal greetings is something you only see in nigeria scams, I think
22:31:54 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
22:32:26 <oerjan> oh. maybe they stopped using formal greetings because they caught in the spam filters.
22:32:47 <elliott> Sgeo: they'll probably sue you if you send that
22:32:54 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Client Quit).
22:33:13 <oerjan> <elliott> Sgeo: they'll probably sue you if you send that
22:33:17 <olsner> "what do you know about bancstar!?" *subpoena*
22:33:31 <elliott> oerjan: what were you gonna say
22:33:35 <Sgeo> I was flat whatting at the claim that I'd get sued. Not at the other Sgeo.
22:33:52 <oerjan> elliott: nothing, i just didn't realize this wasn't an ordinary reconnect
22:33:54 <elliott> Sgeo: u just dont understand corp/s
22:34:14 <Sgeo> Instead of Hello, what should I write?
22:34:42 <olsner> Dear Very Respected Sir and/or Madam,
22:35:03 <Sgeo> I'll just omit the Hello I think.
22:35:11 <olsner> I failed this part of english, but got a passing grade because my teacher "knew" that I could do it properly
22:35:25 <Sgeo> Is "Thanks in advance" pretentious?. Ok, Regards is better
22:36:05 <Sgeo> Typing up letters for my step-mom may have distorted my brain a bit.
22:36:27 <elliott> You're not my REAL father,
22:36:30 <monqy> are you not greeting them or what
22:36:37 <elliott> monqy: this is the email he is sending
22:36:44 <elliott> "GIVE ME THE FUCKING BANCSTAR DOCUMENTATION WHORES"
22:37:12 <monqy> did you say thank you
22:37:38 <elliott> see at first i thought the anxiety was totally unwarranted because how hard can it be to send a corp an email...
22:38:29 <Sgeo> Would have been nice if there were no sarcastic comments in here, such that I would actually be capable of taking genuine advice.
22:38:46 <oerjan> elliott: everything is hard when you're a perfectionist with only half a clue
22:38:58 <elliott> EMBARRASSES HIMSELF ON IRC DAILY
22:39:06 <elliott> WHY DIDN'T YOU HELP ME OUT GUYS
22:39:19 <elliott> anyway im pretty sure everyone mentioned the greeting before you actually sent it s o o
22:40:00 <oerjan> back in my agora days, i used to sign my email with Greetings,
22:40:22 <elliott> (you signed "oerjan" right)
22:40:26 <oerjan> i gradually got the realization that was somewhat backwards
22:41:18 <oerjan> that may have changed at some point
22:57:36 <Sgeo> I should test my ideas about simulation
22:58:16 <Sgeo> Erm, I mean, make a simulation to test my ideas about my detector's faults
22:58:33 <olsner> your simulation of a detector of what?
22:58:42 <olsner> still second life scripting?
22:59:49 <Sgeo> Of what exactly happens when I'm trying to do a binary search to find a value, but the value keeps randomly changing each comparision
22:59:55 <CakeProphet> simulation in MUDs is easy. You just write out what happens.
23:00:37 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:01:19 <CakeProphet> Sgeo: There are two possibilities a) your binary search is horrible b) Second Life has a horrible scripting environment
23:02:10 <CakeProphet> or c) another process is changing the value mid-execution
23:02:20 <Sgeo> Or maybe the value I'm testing CANNOT be tested any other way, regardless of what scripting is like, and regardless of search... actually that's not true, I can make a different search
23:02:33 <Sgeo> But yes, I think another process is changing the value mid-execution
23:02:39 <Sgeo> That was pretty much my point
23:03:17 <Sgeo> If, for each comparison, I do 20 trials, and then go in the direction suggested by the majority of the trials...
23:03:36 <CakeProphet> the only sane way to do a search would be to take a copy of the... uh... unnamed data structure
23:04:10 <oerjan> Sgeo: well you could consider it as estimating the mean or something of a statistical distribution
23:05:06 <oerjan> although things might be complicated if the value changes in small steps rather than being completely independent each time
23:05:26 <Sgeo> oerjan, I have no idea
23:05:50 <CakeProphet> I'd say using the mean could get tricky, whereas mode would be pretty straightforward and accurate.
23:06:02 <olsner> or maybe it should be spelled herpty derp in english
23:06:20 <Sgeo> I do suspect that it's entirely dependent on another value that I'm capable of instantly measuring. Does that help?
23:06:39 <CakeProphet> not really, since you don't know the process behind it.
23:07:02 <oerjan> Sgeo: do you mean capable or incapable there?
23:07:27 <CakeProphet> Sgeo: just rewrite Second Life in Haskell and use STM. Problem solved.
23:07:31 -!- Lymee has joined.
23:07:50 <oerjan> aha. well then if you measure both near simultaneously you should be able to test that hypothesis...
23:08:43 <elliott> Lymee: what did you do with lymia
23:08:54 <Sgeo> I can;t test the original value simultaneously, just whether a current guess is higher or lower. I can test the value I suspect it's dependent on simultaneously
23:08:54 <CakeProphet> elliott: every concurrent project that I'm writing ever is using STM.
23:10:04 <oerjan> Sgeo: well then use the value it is dependent on to construct the guess?
23:10:08 <CakeProphet> in particular I have an idea for an online text-based game in which every player and object is pretty much completely concurrent in this way.
23:10:21 <Sgeo> oerjan, I don't know the exact relation between them.
23:10:39 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:10:54 <CakeProphet> you could just continually monitor the relationship between the values.
23:11:07 <oerjan> Sgeo: hm. use a binary search for _each_ value of the depended-on value
23:11:20 <oerjan> make a table from that
23:11:34 -!- fizzie has joined.
23:11:36 <Sgeo> oerjan, the depended-on value randomly and constantly changes without my being able to control it
23:11:38 <oerjan> or at least for some interval of that value
23:11:50 <elliott> what is the depended-on value
23:12:02 <CakeProphet> something some other fucked-up scripter made.
23:12:15 <Sgeo> Frames per second. Smallest unit of time, if I understand properly
23:12:44 <Sgeo> Well, 1/fps is smallest unit of time
23:13:01 <monqy> why would anyone make the smallest unit of time ever-changing
23:13:08 <oerjan> Sgeo: yes, so use a table for your search. measure your depended-on-value, look up the state for your binary search for that value, then immediately do the next step of that binary search
23:14:01 <oerjan> essentially you are then doing several binary searches in parallel
23:14:42 <oerjan> you might want a bit of error correction if the depended-on-value could change in between
23:15:05 <CakeProphet> though if the fps value changes very fast, you'd likely end up retrying your algorithm ad infinitum.
23:16:40 -!- Patashu has joined.
23:18:54 <Sgeo> Slight complication that I should have mentioned: Measuring whether guess is above or below value is not instantaneous, it takes a certain amount of time. I'm not even sure of the best amount of time, so I'm currently fudging it at 1.5sec
23:19:08 <elliott> um you can just output the data raw
23:20:02 <CakeProphet> yes, the more code you can take out of this shitty scripting environment, the better.
23:20:07 <oerjan> elliott: doesn't work for a binary search
23:20:32 <oerjan> although i guess he could do a batch, calculate new guesses externally, then another batch
23:20:53 <Sgeo> Why would I want to calculate new guesses externally?
23:21:42 <oerjan> Sgeo: hm well the important point is to get the raw data out as well, i think, so you can check if things are behaving as expected
23:22:21 <CakeProphet> at the very least just copy all of the data before you do the checks.
23:22:35 <elliott> http://tech.slashdot.org/story/11/06/12/148208/Why-Doesnt-Google-Kids-Exist
23:22:43 <Sgeo> What would happen if I just went with my idea of the 20 trials then going in the democratic direction?
23:22:44 <CakeProphet> so that you're not at the whim of whatever the fuck is messing with your data.
23:23:16 <CakeProphet> Sgeo: I have no idea. You'd probably get inconsistent results occasionally, but I really don't know how the data is changing.
23:23:39 <monqy> so is this about figuring out how gravity works or what
23:23:43 <oerjan> Sgeo: several trials should help with error correction, i assume
23:24:17 <CakeProphet> Sgeo: you should make it so that when numbers tie they play rock paper scissors.
23:24:32 <CakeProphet> you, know, because it's more exciting than just randomly selecting one.
23:24:50 <CakeProphet> for more than 2 values construct a rock paper scissors tournament tree.
23:24:56 <Sgeo> Gravity, for reasons I still haven't quite understood (yes, floating-point error, but what about it?), when it takes effect, if it's weak enough, starts the object moving downwards, then stops
23:25:20 <Sgeo> I'm trying to measure the strength of gravity needed such that it doesn't stop moving downwards, and am doing this measurement at different altitudes.
23:28:41 <Sgeo> Well, the way I'm taking the measurement is: Set buoyancy (which I'm using to set the effect of gravity, if I'm wrong about that, well...) to guessed level. Start physics. After .75 seconds, get altitude. .75 seconds after that, measure altitude again. If no change between first and second measurement, gravity's too weak, otherwise, too strong.
23:28:58 <Sgeo> Then it returns to original altitude and repeats with the binary search
23:33:14 <oerjan> i think maybe plain binary search is too error-prone for this, since one error completely ruins the rest of the search
23:33:18 <Sgeo> The minimum strengh of gravity such that gravity doesn't just weirdly stop after a short amount of time.
23:34:50 <elliott> also why are you doing this
23:35:09 <oerjan> because according to Sgeo's theory it depends on the fps rate, which might change during each test
23:35:49 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:36:00 <oerjan> perhaps checking it both before and after and discarding data if it has changed will help
23:36:21 <elliott> 13:59:32: <ais523> AnMaster: by defining functions with certain names, you can affect the behaviour of glibc malloc
23:36:29 <elliott> i wonder how it knows whether they're defined or not...
23:36:44 <CakeProphet> Sgeo: I was basically going to suggest that if you know the exact relationship between fps and value then you could normalize the results by converting it to a unit that's independent of framerate.
23:37:15 <oerjan> CakeProphet: my impression is he hasn't got a function yet
23:37:17 <Sgeo> As in, before and after the entire binary search?
23:37:41 <oerjan> Sgeo: preferably as often as possible...
23:38:02 <Sgeo> Honestly, I didn't set out trying to determine that function. I set out trying to determine if it's also dependent on altitude.
23:38:06 <oerjan> if you find out it doesn't change that often, you could do it rarer
23:38:28 <oerjan> Sgeo: well that just means your function got another parameter
23:38:37 <Patashu> Hey, so I read http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/hxro3/when_i_touch_a_wall_what_color_is_the_light/ and I was wondering if there was a 'What quantum phenomena actually mean compared to media simplifications' page out there
23:38:42 <Patashu> for this, entanglement, tunnelling etc
23:38:42 <Sgeo> But, as in, an entire binary search gets discarded if FPS significantly changes
23:38:54 <CakeProphet> yes if you poll the fps constantly then you can associate each test value with the fps at which it was measured, which will make things less error-prone later either by having the old fps at the ready or by being able to normalize all of the values.
23:39:08 <elliott> Patashu: im sorry you had to see sgeo on /r/askscience
23:39:15 <elliott> Patashu: do you need a hug
23:39:17 <Sgeo> Note: FPS is a floating-point
23:39:17 <elliott> its traumatic for all of us
23:39:30 <oerjan> Sgeo: that might be enough. well you'll have to decide on a precision.
23:40:09 <monqy> elliott: at first I thought you were joking and it was just someone acting ridiculous but then I looked and it's actually sgeo
23:40:18 <monqy> I don't know what to think
23:40:24 <oerjan> Sgeo: also if it _does_ change more often, you don't have to discard _all_ the data for a search, just store what you have so far and continue that search when fps returns to that value
23:40:37 <elliott> its great, gets out all the emotions for several whole minutes
23:40:41 <Sgeo> elliott, what was so horrible about my question?
23:40:46 <oerjan> all this depends on how often fps actually changes, of course
23:41:30 <CakeProphet> if you can find the function then you won't have to deal with any of that foolishness. :P
23:42:05 <Sgeo> CakeProphet, considering that I can't even begin to fathom why the effect I'm measuring even exists...
23:42:07 <CakeProphet> and instead you only have to deal with the foolishness of trying to find the function.
23:42:21 <oerjan> CakeProphet: he needs this foolishness to estimate the function, duh
23:42:41 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
23:42:52 <monqy> so I forgot why sgeo was even doing this at all
23:43:00 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
23:43:05 <monqy> is there something important about second life gravity
23:43:11 <Sgeo> And all I really want to do, at this point in time, is to see if altitude is an imput to the finctiion
23:43:16 <Sgeo> input, function
23:43:17 <CakeProphet> I would say just grab everything relevant from your environment at each test, and store them all together in some kind of data structure which is of course not going to be shitty because this is Second Life's scripting engine.
23:46:14 <oerjan> Sgeo: well the obvious explanation is that some value dependent on buoyancy and divided by fps is subtracted from altitude each frame, and if it's low enough it won't change the altitude. hm but why would it change it initially and then stop... that would make more sense if you _added_ to the altitude and it reached a power of 2
23:46:39 <oerjan> maybe the actual altitude value increases downward...
23:46:50 <Sgeo> No, it doesn't.
23:47:18 <CakeProphet> Sgeo: have you considered asking the SL team about it?
23:47:22 <Sgeo> And I've been performing these experiments at 4000, so there's no power of 2 boundary right there, are there other similar boundaries
23:47:35 <Sgeo> CakeProphet, no, maybe I should. Or ask other scripters.
23:48:48 <Sgeo> There is now a chain message thing about some product called "Cocoa mulch", and how it's dangerous to dogs.
23:48:58 <Sgeo> All I can think is "No shit sherlock?'
23:49:33 <elliott> its not actually made out of chocolate though
23:50:10 <elliott> and selling a substance that will kill dogs without mentioning it sounds pretty lolillegal to me
23:50:46 <oerjan> um one would expect the dangerous-to-dogs component of chocolate to be in the cocoa...
23:51:10 <oerjan> (hm was it theobromine?)
23:51:33 <CakeProphet> Happy Dog Antifreeze Bites! They Make Dogs Happy and Warm!
23:51:52 -!- wareya_ has changed nick to wareya.
23:52:51 <elliott> oerjan: its not made out of cocoa either
23:53:01 <elliott> but yeah IIRC that stuff contains theobromine
23:53:25 -!- fizzie has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
23:54:05 <lambdabot> forall a (f :: * -> *). (Num a, Functor f) => f a
23:54:33 <oerjan> it's really that, i think
23:55:08 <oerjan> actually it's even worse. in either case neither has a chance of holding with strict addition
23:55:32 <CakeProphet> Haskell has problems with infinity. They need to fix that bug.
23:55:45 <oerjan> but foldl1 _ (repeat _) by itself can never halt
23:56:24 <elliott> Int/Integer are just strict
23:56:30 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a -> a]'
23:56:37 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Zero'
23:56:38 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Z'
23:56:45 <CakeProphet> obviously they can just write a procedure in the compiler that determines whether or not it halts without running it.
23:56:46 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a -> a]'
23:56:47 <lambdabot> In the second argument of `foldr1', namely `(1 +)'
23:57:15 <oerjan> > foldr1 (.) (repeat (1+)) a
23:57:40 <oerjan> :t foldr1 (.) (repeat (1+))
23:58:04 <oerjan> hm does that mean Expr addition is actually strict...
23:58:16 <oerjan> > 1+(1+(1+undefined)) :: Expr
23:58:17 <CakeProphet> I don't think so, I've seen infinite series I thought.
23:58:18 <lambdabot> 1 + (1 + (1 + *Exception: Prelude.undefined
23:58:39 <elliott> ?let compn 0 f = f; compn n f = f . compn (n-1) f
23:58:44 <elliott> now just define a lazy nat type
23:59:01 <oerjan> elliott: i think Expr _should_ be lazy enough for this
23:59:07 * Sgeo suddenly connects something he read a while ago to the halting problem.
23:59:27 <elliott> > compn (foldr1 (.) (repeat (1+)) 0 :: Expr)
23:59:28 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show ((b -> b) -> b -> b)
23:59:29 <elliott> > compn (foldr1 (.) (repeat (1+)) 0 :: Expr) f
23:59:30 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (b -> b)
23:59:34 <elliott> > compn (foldr1 (.) (repeat (1+)) 0 :: Expr) f
23:59:34 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (b -> b)
23:59:41 <lambdabot> forall a. (SimpleReflect.FromExpr a) => a
23:59:42 <elliott> > compn (foldr1 (.) (repeat (1+)) 0 :: Expr) f :: Expr
23:59:43 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `SimpleReflect.Expr'
23:59:45 <Sgeo> Would 100% accuracy in determining all the points of the mandelbrot require halting problem shenannigans?
23:59:47 <elliott> > compn (foldr1 (.) (repeat (1+)) 0 :: Expr) f :: Expr -> Expr
23:59:48 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show