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00:10:13 -!- Gregor has set topic: This channel rated for "You are Only Allowed to Use is Channel if you Have a Legitimate Keyboard" | Join ##verybadattitude for more intellectual discussions | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
00:11:02 <elliott_> * Cannot join ##verybadattitude (You are banned).
00:11:12 <elliott_> is it just me or is everyone banned
00:11:20 <elliott_> thought i'd have to beat up Gregor there for a minute
00:11:37 <olsner> right, our attitude is not bad enough to qualify yet
00:11:46 <elliott_> http://codu.org/logs/_matrixofsolidity/ <-- good use of disk space
00:11:49 <Gregor> elliott_: It has the chanserv +b *!*@* mode, which is slightly distinct from just having the channel mode because in fact the channel will become joinable once a minute, but as soon as you join you'll be kickbanned :P
00:12:15 <Sgeo> joinable once a minute?
00:12:18 <elliott_> Gregor: So if you time it right and have discussions REALLY quickly...
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00:12:44 <Gregor> Sgeo: Chanserv joins the channel to kickban you, then parts, but the channel only actually ceases existence (so loses its ban list) after about a minute.
00:13:26 <Sgeo> It's possible to leave ChanServ in there, isn't it?
00:13:32 <Sgeo> So it never ceases existence?
00:13:34 <elliott_> hey Gregor do javascript dudes still think writing programs in continuation-passing style manually is the key to WEB SCALE speed
00:13:47 <olsner> hmm, as soon as *anyone* enters *everyone* get banned?
00:14:38 <Gregor> olsner: AFAIK you can't make chanserv set more restrictive bans ... for everyone :)
00:16:22 <Gregor> What can I say, it has a very bad attitude *shrugs*
00:16:45 * Sgeo ruins it for everyone forever
00:17:04 <olsner> so basically everyone needs to keep away for >1minute then one person can be in there for like one second?
00:17:15 <Sgeo> Joking about the forever
00:17:29 <Sgeo> And getting in doesn't mean staying in ofc
00:17:39 <Gregor> olsner: AFAIK it'll reset whether people are trying to /join or not, so you don't need to keep away :P
00:18:34 <olsner> hmm, so if you time it *just* right, you could actually have several people in there?
00:19:02 <Gregor> olsner: Not sure, I don't see why not though.
00:19:12 <elliott_> lets set up bots to coordinate conversations in there
00:20:12 <olsner> hey, this is like the numbers irc! ships meeting in the ocean to exchange "warez"
00:23:44 <olsner> "backtrace them!" "huh, we're banned? how can they have banned us, they don't know which name we're connecting with!"
00:28:07 <oerjan> what a lousy palindrome
00:28:44 <olsner> it's so bad at being a palindrome it fails to be one
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00:30:02 <olsner> oerjan: you're not a very good palindrome yourself though
00:32:17 <elliott_> you know what really sucks haskell's module system
00:33:58 <monqy> what really sucks haskell's module system
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00:44:56 <Sgeo> I think Factor's is worse
00:46:56 <monqy> c's module system is awful
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01:01:55 <Sgeo> As far as I know, there's no room for finding vocabs outside the ... directories where Factor's expecting them. Actually, hmm, not sure about that. But there's no way to deal with two independently developed samely-named vocabs
01:02:14 <CakeProphet> the hiding directive and choosing between qualified and unqualified are pretty sophisticated as far as I can tell.
01:02:33 <elliott_> basically there's no way to parameterise a module on another module
01:03:59 <Sgeo> Pretty sure Factor's on the same boat there
01:04:28 <Sgeo> Unless parameterising modules doesnt madate being able to parameterise on stu.. I'm clueless
01:04:41 <Sgeo> An example of parameterising on a module please?
01:05:03 <elliott_> i lost my motivation to explain right after complaining
01:05:21 <elliott_> ill find the augustss post about it
01:06:07 <elliott_> http://augustss.blogspot.com/2008/12/somewhat-failed-adventure-in-haskell.html
01:06:07 <elliott_> http://augustss.blogspot.com/2008/12/abstraction-continues-i-got-several.html
01:06:09 <elliott_> http://augustss.blogspot.com/2008/12/abstracting-on-suggested-solutions-i.html
01:06:10 <elliott_> http://augustss.blogspot.com/2008/12/ocaml-code-again-im-posting-slight.html
01:07:17 <CakeProphet> is that kind of like Perl's module system...? I doubt it.
01:07:24 <elliott_> CakeProphet: i linked the blog posts for a reason
01:08:01 <elliott_> do you want me to paste in the blog posts
01:10:53 <CakeProphet> uh, I'm not sure if this first one really has a point.
01:11:47 <elliott_> its showing something thats not possible in haskell
01:11:50 <elliott_> the later articles show how you can do it in ML
01:11:54 <elliott_> and how its still not possible to do cleanly in haskell
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01:14:35 <CakeProphet> elliott_: http://www.stefanwehr.de/publications/WehrChakravarty2008.html
01:15:05 <elliott_> typeclasses arent a viable replacement for the module system
01:15:08 <elliott_> because theyre a pain to use in this manner
01:15:22 <elliott_> anyway i linked the blog posts because im not actually interested in discussing this right now so
01:15:44 <CakeProphet> Good, then you agree that Perl has the best module system.
01:16:06 <monqy> what's so good about perl's
01:16:56 <CakeProphet> it has some interesting export features. Modules can export different sets of functions based on 'tags' that you pass it.
01:17:30 <monqy> actually that sounds kind of gross
01:17:31 <CakeProphet> but otherwise there's nothing special about it. It's a limited subset of other languages module systems.
01:21:00 <CakeProphet> use Getopt::Long qw(:config no_ignore_case bundling gnu_compat permute)
01:21:31 <CakeProphet> the big list there is a bunch of config options you can pass that module.
01:22:17 <oerjan> from wikipedia's Did You Know "... that Stephen Fry was an engineer and aspiring jazz pianist before he captained South Africa's rugby team against the British Lions?"
01:23:26 <oerjan> CakeProphet: you'd think that could easily be expanded to something resembling ML functors
01:24:16 <CakeProphet> but since you can have arbitrary code execute as a result of those options, I wouldn't be surprised if it were possible, if a bit tedious.
01:24:37 <oerjan> CakeProphet: well basically you _do_ pass parameters to modules, and get a module instance back
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01:24:54 <CakeProphet> except Perl has no type system really so, and ML functors seemed concerned with typing of things.
01:24:59 <oerjan> CakeProphet: well you'd want to be able to use more than just strings as parameters
01:25:23 <oerjan> CakeProphet: well yeah but you could get the non-typing part of it
01:26:07 <oerjan> i guess python's module system allows that pretty easily, since modules are more or less just dictionaries
01:26:36 <oerjan> so you could create one on the fly
01:26:38 <CakeProphet> yes, they're a special kind of class or whatever.
01:26:47 <CakeProphet> and yes, you can dynamically make a module that doesn't exist anywhere on file.
01:28:19 <CakeProphet> but you couldn't pass parameters to immediately effect the runtime loading of a module
01:28:29 <CakeProphet> you would have to do something afterwards.
01:29:27 <oerjan> CakeProphet: well i'm not entirely sure about Standard ML, but in Ocaml you cannot pass parameters directly either, instead the functor is a member of the file module which can then apply to parameters
01:29:43 <CakeProphet> ah okay, yes you could do something like that.
01:30:02 <CakeProphet> it would be like.... calling a function in the module, more or less.
01:30:57 <oerjan> iirc Scala identifies modules and functors with classes as well
01:31:26 <CakeProphet> it's not exactly the same in Python, but I forgot in what ways that applies...
01:31:32 <CakeProphet> in Ruby however, they're exactly the same thing.
01:32:07 <oerjan> *with objects and classes, perhaps
01:32:36 <CakeProphet> yeah, essentially a module is an instance of type 'module'
01:33:27 <oerjan> hm yesterday wikipedia had, for the first time i've seen, a Featured List, but none today
01:33:42 <CakeProphet> as in, the featured article was a list article?
01:34:00 <oerjan> no, as in there was a specific added feature that was a list article
01:34:14 <oerjan> just above the picture spot
01:35:39 <CakeProphet> well there's this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_lists
01:35:56 <CakeProphet> there's also featured sounds. They must be some pretty impressive sounds.
01:36:32 <CakeProphet> a lot of the featured sounds appear to be classical music.
01:36:50 <CakeProphet> further supposing the fact that Wikipedia editors are snooty pricks. :)
01:40:11 <CakeProphet> once you get into the 1900s and up there's more political/historical speeches/recordings.
01:40:43 <CakeProphet> but nothing I would classify as a "truly epic sound"
01:41:01 <CakeProphet> like some kind of rainforest bird with multi-tonal squaks or something.
01:41:02 <elliott_> featured doesnt mean "awesome"
01:43:23 <elliott_> you realise that there are restrictions on featured stuff
01:43:27 <elliott_> like it cant be a fair use sample
01:45:02 <CakeProphet> I'm not really talking about how these sounds awesomely fit into the rules.
01:45:20 <CakeProphet> just that they're not good sounds. Well, okay, the classical music is good.
01:47:19 <monqy> the best sounds on wikipedia in our snooty prick opinions
01:48:15 <CakeProphet> "the best moments in history, recorded and on Wikipedia. Oh, and some classical music."
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01:48:49 <monqy> let's pretend classical music is a best moment in history
01:52:13 <CakeProphet> yeah, see I was expecting to be blown away by the quality of these sounds. In much the same way that I expect such from articles in featured articles.
01:52:26 <CakeProphet> I have been mislead. So many previous minutes, expired.
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03:11:05 <pikhq> I'm convinced that Manitou Springs (town of about 5,000, ~8 km², adjacent to Colorado Springs) has managed to suck all the culture out of Colorado Springs (city of ~400,000, ~482 km²).
03:12:14 <pikhq> That's... Disturbing.
03:14:38 <oerjan> you should know that manitou is all-powerful
03:18:39 <pikhq> Also: *dang* the US has a low average population density.
03:21:24 <pikhq> Yeah, and it's about 18 for my state.
03:21:51 <pikhq> And 0.46 in Alaska. :P
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03:47:25 <elliott_> "i didnt think danes had mathematicians? i just figured danes walked around all day saying 'bjergen schergensensen' and nodding politely to oneanother"
03:51:16 <oklofok> lol that's just ignorant right
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04:54:29 * pikhq_ contemplates build systems further
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04:56:56 * pikhq_ wonders if EKOPath does awesome things for x264. Probably not, because the developers are already freakish, but hey.
04:58:48 <Gregor> Bear witness to my awesome new garbage collection idea!
04:58:52 <Gregor> I call it "chaos collection"
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04:59:07 <Gregor> Each page is designated for a particular /type/ (sorry, need static types for this)
04:59:15 <Gregor> You allocate by simply chopping up the page and handing them out.
04:59:27 <oerjan> bah, i've collected chaos for years
04:59:33 <Gregor> When you reach the maximum allotted amount of memory use, you switched to an LRU algorithm.
04:59:37 <elliott_> Gregor: Just parameterise it on N bytes rather than types
04:59:46 <elliott_> Gregor: Then Fythe can use it for objects less than one thousand bytes or so :P
04:59:47 <Gregor> elliott_: Wait for why it's types :P
04:59:55 <Vorpal> oh this sounds interesting *checks log for context*
05:00:09 <Gregor> The least recently used page is marked as free, and each element added to the freelist for that type.
05:00:38 <Gregor> They're not modified yet, just marked as free. Later allocations of the same type can reclaim the same space, and use them, creating aliases.
05:00:49 <Gregor> Type safety is preserved!
05:01:02 <elliott_> I'm not even going to try and understand what you're proposing.
05:01:05 <Gregor> (Note: Probably not advisable to use this for recursive types)
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05:01:30 <Gregor> elliott_: Don't trace reachability of existing pointers. Just mark the LRU page as free.
05:01:31 <Vorpal> Gregor, oooh this sounds cool
05:01:38 <elliott_> Gregor: BTW, you actually mean _constructor_-specific
05:01:43 <oerjan> i understand it perfectly. it's completely nuts.
05:01:50 <Gregor> elliott_: No, the thing is NOT the size.
05:01:54 <elliott_> `addquote <elliott_> I'm not even going to try and understand what you're proposing. <oerjan> i understand it perfectly. it's completely nuts.
05:01:54 <Gregor> elliott_: Type safety is crucial here.
05:01:55 <HackEgo> 456) <elliott_> I'm not even going to try and understand what you're proposing. <oerjan> i understand it perfectly. it's completely nuts.
05:02:08 <elliott_> data List a = Nil | Cons a (List a)
05:02:16 <elliott_> It'd need a nil pool and a cons pool
05:02:20 <elliott_> Erm, imagine nil has one element embedded in it
05:02:23 <elliott_> So it actually has objects >_>
05:02:42 <Vorpal> elliott_, wait what? Couldn't there be one globally shared Nil value?
05:02:50 <elliott_> <elliott_> Erm, imagine nil has one element embedded in it
05:02:50 <elliott_> <elliott_> So it actually has objects >_>
05:02:51 <Gregor> Null/nil/null/Nil/nool: Ruiner of types.
05:02:54 <elliott_> Amount I hate Vorpal: Thousands.
05:03:01 <elliott_> data Either a b = Left a | Right b
05:03:06 <Vorpal> elliott_, s/value/object/
05:03:15 <elliott_> I am just saying that you're equating types with constructors, which is only valid in C-like languages :P
05:03:47 <Gregor> elliott_: Yes, I am, because I'm talking about a fucking garbage collector, and a chaos-inspired one at that >_>
05:04:03 <Vorpal> elliott_, hm how does low level representation of something like "<elliott_> data Either a b = Left a | Right b" look like in ghc?
05:04:08 <elliott_> Gregor: Chaos as in the English word or? :P
05:04:23 <elliott_> One word representing which constructor, then one pointer after it, consecutively in memory.
05:05:07 <Vorpal> elliott_, and in case of something like Maybe the pointer is null for the Nothing case?
05:05:11 <oerjan> also, a tag on the pointers to Eithers iirc
05:05:38 <oerjan> no pointer at all i'd say
05:05:48 <Gregor> oerjan: So, like my GC then?
05:05:57 <Gregor> Chaos Collection: Best GC?
05:06:09 <oerjan> Gregor: for a certain value of "best"
05:06:23 <Vorpal> oerjan, so you mean for "Maybe Int" Nothing has a different size than Just 3?
05:06:39 <oerjan> Vorpal: at least conceptually
05:06:39 <elliott_> yes, constructors can have different sizes
05:07:01 <Vorpal> oerjan, yes conceptually, but what about in practise?
05:07:36 <oerjan> Vorpal: i think the first word or so also includes total length info for the gc
05:08:11 <oerjan> (or actually if there are unboxed fields it may need to tell where they are and what size, too)
05:08:29 <Vorpal> hm, so how many different constructors are possible then?
05:09:43 <Vorpal> Gregor, I think your GC is very interesting. Not sure how well it would actually work though.
05:10:21 <Vorpal> Gregor, if each pool is type-specfic it would I guess potentially offer a very fast GC, but with many types in a program you could run into issues.
05:10:31 <Gregor> Vorpal: What's more interesting is if you can argue about its effects on a particular program or class of programs.
05:10:46 <Vorpal> Gregor, I think I just did in some broad terms :P
05:11:02 <Gregor> Vorpal: I mean higher level. e.g. for some class the correctness of your final result reduces proportionally with the size of your heap.
05:12:03 <Vorpal> hm I just realised, nearly all C coding I have been doing lately has been for embedded systems.
05:12:24 <Vorpal> with lately I mean something like the last 6 months or so
05:14:11 <pikhq_> Well, that was helpful.
05:14:16 <pikhq_> "Floating point exception".
05:14:25 <oerjan> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Commentary/Rts/Storage/HeapObjects
05:14:30 <Gregor> pikhq_: Stop dividing by zero.
05:14:33 <Gregor> pikhq_: It's not cool.
05:14:35 <Vorpal> pikhq_, if you can I would suggest a debugger at this point. It can mean a lot of things.
05:14:48 <Vorpal> Gregor, iirc you can get that for other things than div by zero
05:14:58 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Not GCC, though.
05:15:02 <Vorpal> pikhq_, which compiler then?
05:15:13 <pikhq_> Which has yet to have a source release.
05:15:14 <Gregor> pikhq_: Is this GGGGC?
05:15:16 <Vorpal> pikhq_, never heard of it
05:15:28 <pikhq_> Vorpal: In benchmarks, it has 2x performance.
05:15:29 <Gregor> Speaking of, I just finished downloading it!
05:15:36 <Vorpal> pikhq_, nice, open source?
05:15:53 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Until, oh, now, it cost $2000 per seat.
05:16:01 <Vorpal> this is *highly* interesting
05:16:34 <Gregor> Curiously, the clickthrough license already specifies GPL, although no source is included yet? >_>
05:16:34 <pikhq_> I like how the price was enough to clue you in. :P
05:16:38 <Vorpal> pikhq_, why is it going to be open source?
05:16:44 <Vorpal> pikhq_, no I googled at the same time :P
05:16:57 <Vorpal> pikhq_, though yeah I would have guessed it based on the price too.
05:17:08 <pikhq_> Gregor: The press release came out before they planned on having source up.
05:17:33 <pikhq_> If it's not out in a day or two, *then* you can get upset.
05:17:43 <oerjan> Vorpal: http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Commentary/Rts/Storage/HeapObjects#Pointers-firstlayout
05:17:46 <Vorpal> pikhq_, what made them go open source, I don't get it. Are we going to see VxWorks as open source next!?
05:17:49 <elliott_> Their live chat guy told me that
05:18:05 <Gregor> GGGGC works with EKOPath
05:18:22 <pikhq_> Vorpal: No idea, but I'm not about to complain.
05:18:34 <elliott_> "So we now have GHC as the only major compiler which can cause *runtime* crashes depending on what characters are used in a string literal."
05:18:37 <Vorpal> pikhq_, targets linux?
05:18:50 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Yes. x86_64 only, though.
05:18:57 <Vorpal> ah, no problem for me there
05:19:05 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Also, *builds* Linux (with a small patch that I can't find yet).
05:19:17 <Vorpal> <elliott_> "So we now have GHC as the only major compiler which can cause *runtime* crashes depending on what characters are used in a string literal." <-- *blink*
05:19:17 <Gregor> No visible change in performance from GCC.
05:19:24 <elliott_> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/5255
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05:21:00 <elliott_> "GHC bug: people can define Functor instances for things that aren't functors." --dolio
05:21:41 <Vorpal> well, I'm off. Practical driving exam. I hate mornings though. Oh well.
05:22:02 <elliott_> five am to ten am officially no longer exist
05:22:22 <pikhq_> But those are sleeping hours!
05:24:24 <pikhq_> So, got xz built with it...
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05:27:00 -!- elliott_ has changed nick to dodifer.
05:28:03 <Gregor> I wonder how many people are named Dodifer.
05:35:51 <pikhq_> Welp, -ipa is a bad bad flag to use.
05:36:04 <pikhq_> It makes pathcc trigger a glibc bug.
05:36:13 <pikhq_> By God, this is a positive stress test of my system. :P
05:42:16 <pikhq_> Hmm. Well, xz is slower with it.
05:43:17 <pikhq_> Apparently, it takes *cache size* as one of the optimisation flags, and its defaults are for an Opteron, which has fairly beefy L2.
05:50:38 <pikhq_> Oh, and you have to *order* it to handle pointer alias more strictly.
05:51:45 <dodifer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence_Y%27all_Water_Tower
05:53:03 <pikhq_> Let me just be absurd and give it -LNO:alias=restrict
05:53:05 <Gregor> dodifer: We invent words that the English language was sorely lacking?
05:53:17 <pikhq_> Which makes it assume FORTRAN pointer semantics.
05:54:26 <Gregor> "The city paid $472 to the W.T. Marx Company[5] of nearby Cincinnati, Ohio to make the changes; whereas a complete repaint would have been nearly three times as much" lol
05:54:56 <pikhq_> Which does not help on xz at all.
05:55:06 <dodifer> gregor laughs at poor people, especially when those poor people are governments
05:55:21 <pikhq_> It's pretty consistently being a couple seconds slower on decompressing $large_file.
05:55:38 <dodifer> Fortran pointer semantics should never slow anything down :P
05:55:59 <pikhq_> dodifer: No, I mean that the compiler's output is consistently doing that no matter what I throw at it.
05:56:12 <pikhq_> Only thing that helped notably was telling it my cache size.
05:56:41 <dodifer> i have an important question
05:56:43 <dodifer> does anyone actually use fedora
05:57:24 <pikhq_> I get the feeling this is optimised for numerical-heavily workloads.
05:59:48 <dodifer> is kernel three still not out yet
06:00:19 <pikhq_> 3.0-rc3 just came out.
06:00:39 <pikhq_> By "just" I mean "a minute ago".
06:01:27 <pikhq_> It's not a -rc1, so it should be reasonably stable.
06:04:31 <pikhq_> Kay, so flac -8 on Alive 1997 takes 57 seconds with EKOPath...
06:05:24 <dodifer> your flac is a lot faster than mine
06:06:02 <pikhq_> And 62 with Debian's stock package.
06:06:24 <dodifer> this time with linux THREE
06:06:32 <dodifer> excuz me this is exctiging news
06:07:25 <pikhq_> Now to see if it handles -ipa.
06:08:26 <pikhq_> Nope, segfaults in the assembler.
06:09:24 <dodifer> hey pikhq_ im not sure you actually need tmpfs at all
06:09:29 <dodifer> if you have initramfs support
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06:12:16 <dodifer> hmm, I wonder if BFS saves kernel size
06:17:28 <dodifer> Setup is 13132 bytes (padded to 13312 bytes).
06:17:53 <dodifer> dunno if it can actually boot though
06:48:57 <pikhq_> From my testing, I conclude that GCC and clang are actually *really* freaking good at optimisation outside of confusing circumstances.
06:49:20 <pikhq_> pathcc is better, but it's not blowing the others out of the water.
06:50:02 <pikhq_> If pathcc's automatic parallelisation and link-time optimisation *worked* I'd be saying something different, no doubt.
06:50:15 <pikhq_> But it doesn't, so I'm not.
06:55:28 <dodifer> gcc? good at optimisation?
06:55:55 <dodifer> well ok gcc's forte is more breaking programs
06:55:58 <dodifer> than being bad at optimisation
06:57:04 <pikhq_> dodifer: In my testing, it's either slightly better or slightly worse than pathcc.
06:57:27 <pikhq_> Admittedly, I was not able to get automatic parallelisation to work.
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08:02:43 <elliott> Gregor what was that really sad video with the rabbit that fell down the well
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08:09:13 <Vorpal> you americans will be rather confused by this I bet. I failed the practical driving exam because I was to close to the right side of the road when I was about to turn left from a countryside road. That alone was what I failed on and it was enough to prevent me from passing.
08:10:02 <Vorpal> elliott, as if you could drive.
08:10:08 <elliott> Vorpal: i don't see how driving a car can be hard, its like a computer except it only has a few buttons and it doesn't crash
08:10:18 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Yeah, US drivers would absolutely *frighten* you.
08:10:26 <elliott> but like how do you even fail at driving
08:10:36 <elliott> "whoops i went left but i wanted to go right, i guess i am stupid"
08:10:42 <Vorpal> elliott, except unlike a computer you don
08:10:55 <pikhq_> elliott: How do you think the US gets away with a driving test that anyone who can compute 1+1 can pass?
08:10:59 <Vorpal> do need* to keep track of everything around you
08:11:06 <elliott> pikhq_: because driving si easy?
08:11:13 <elliott> Vorpal: you ignore your windows on a computer?
08:11:23 <elliott> i mean come ON all you have to do is not bash into things
08:11:26 <elliott> have you ever played donkey.bas
08:11:28 <elliott> that's how hard driving is
08:11:33 <Vorpal> elliott, no but try keeping track of 40 other computer users around you and what they are doing
08:11:33 <elliott> don't hit the fucking donkey
08:11:39 <elliott> oh no there's forty donkeys
08:11:40 <Vorpal> elliott, then it is like driving
08:11:56 <elliott> come on driving is easier than puzzle bobble
08:11:59 <pikhq_> Vorpal: The cars on the road might frighten you more, actually...
08:12:12 <Vorpal> <elliott> i mean come ON all you have to do is not bash into things <-- yeah I'll *love* to see you drive. From behind a barricade preferably.
08:12:24 <pikhq_> Vorpal: If it runs, it's probably street legal.
08:12:32 <elliott> Vorpal: unfortunately im not stupid enough to fail at driving, sorry that it won't be entertaining
08:12:38 <elliott> but driving is kind of pointless though
08:12:44 <Vorpal> elliott, in Sweden you can fail the exam if you don't drive in a environmentally friendly way btw.
08:12:46 <elliott> it takes hours and you can't do anything while its happening
08:13:01 <elliott> its like doing a rubiks cube for five hour sand then you arrive at your destination
08:13:08 <pikhq_> Vorpal: If you can drive around a couple of blocks you can pass.
08:13:17 <elliott> Vorpal: lol, "drive in an environmentally friendly way"
08:13:20 <olsner> but driving isn't intellectual but mostly motor skills? so stupidity should have almost nothing to do with it
08:13:24 <elliott> GUYS IF WE REDUCE ENERGY USAGE A TINY TINY BIT
08:13:25 <Vorpal> elliott, well, reasonably
08:13:43 <elliott> SCIENCE PROVES IT ! ! ! ! ! !
08:13:46 <Vorpal> elliott, basically yes. I agree it don't help much.
08:13:54 <Vorpal> <olsner> but driving isn't intellectual but mostly motor skills? so stupidity should have almost nothing to do with it <-- indeed
08:13:59 <Vorpal> I had no problems with the theory
08:14:01 <elliott> i really love the "save the planet" slogan
08:14:08 <Vorpal> elliott, they don't use that one here
08:14:11 <elliott> if we dont reduce carbon dioxide
08:14:13 <elliott> the planet will LITERALLY EXPLODE
08:14:34 <Vorpal> elliott, they use the silly slogan "ecodriving", in English. I have no clue why they use that.
08:14:38 <olsner> yeah, we'll reach explosive levels of co2 and the whole thing goes boom
08:14:38 <elliott> olsner: its not that much motor skills
08:14:46 <elliott> i mean there's not much finesse involved in turning a wheel really
08:14:47 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Now to scare you more: I can legally drive *on your roads* with a US license.
08:14:56 <elliott> non-fine motor skills maybe
08:14:59 <elliott> but thats just kind of like... moving your arms
08:15:09 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Which you get for driving around a couple of blocks succesfully and answering 7 out of 10 multiple choice questions right.
08:15:18 <elliott> i dunno, maybe the cars make driving hard, maybe i need to design a car
08:15:19 <olsner> moving your arms is motor skills :P
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08:15:40 <elliott> although actually id just write the small amount of extra software required to be a better-than-human driver
08:15:55 <pikhq_> elliott: Such NIH, man.
08:15:59 <Vorpal> I'm glad I'm not in US
08:16:08 <elliott> pikhq_: yeah i know google are already on it
08:16:20 <elliott> Vorpal: swedish rodes must be really boring
08:16:23 <Lymia> How simple a ruleset would it take for a car to do as well as, or better than a human driver anyways?
08:16:26 <elliott> if you have to drive you might as well have some excitement
08:16:36 <elliott> Vorpal: because all your drivers are good and boring...
08:16:48 <Vorpal> elliott, dude, you forgot the winter
08:16:48 <elliott> what stupid fucks will be on the road today???
08:16:59 <pikhq_> elliott: Yes, that is exactly how it is.
08:17:02 <Lymia> elliott, driving and pathfinding arn't exactly the same problem...
08:17:11 <pikhq_> Lymia: Google has self-driving cars.
08:17:17 <elliott> Lymia: google are working on self-driving vehicles
08:17:19 <Vorpal> elliott, we get enough excitement during winter that we want a calm summer :P
08:17:26 <elliott> Lymia: thousands of miles of real-world testing in california
08:17:32 <Lymia> Do they drive like non-assholeish drivers?
08:17:49 <pikhq_> Yes, and the only accident so far is that a car got rear-ended.
08:18:01 <elliott> they should try it in sweden without any modifications
08:18:08 <Vorpal> elliott, during winter yeah
08:18:18 <Lymia> pikhq_, which car?
08:18:26 <Vorpal> hm are studded tires allowed during winter in US?
08:18:42 <elliott> hmm i should reboot back into linux
08:18:55 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Depends on the state.
08:19:08 <Lymia> pikhq_, heh. I'm not too sure that counts as Google's fault...
08:19:18 <Lymia> Wonder if the program has cases to deal with "omg somebody is going to rear end me"
08:19:28 <pikhq_> Lymia: It was at a stop light, too.
08:19:34 <olsner> Vorpal: they're not even allowed in sweden in some places
08:19:44 <Vorpal> olsner, oh true. Mostly central stockholm iirc?
08:19:46 <elliott> rear-end doesnt mean what ithink
08:19:47 <Lymia> Proof we need more robot cars.
08:19:49 <elliott> thats a lot less funny now
08:19:50 <pikhq_> Vorpal: *Basically*, anywhere with winters that are worth caring about has studded tires legal.
08:19:52 <Vorpal> olsner, but who in their right mind would go there.
08:19:55 <elliott> i thought it meant a car flipping upside down for some reason
08:20:02 <elliott> google car stops orderly at the traffic light
08:20:06 <olsner> Vorpal: people who live or work there, mostly
08:20:07 <elliott> spontaneously flips itself over
08:20:13 <olsner> no-one else would suffer the queues
08:20:29 <Vorpal> olsner, I would never drive unstudded during winter, exception if I moved to some big city probably.
08:21:21 <Vorpal> olsner, but the municipality I live in has as a stupid policy to never use salt during winter unless in extreme conditions. Just sand. So I need studded to get up the hill from where I live when it is icy :P
08:21:30 <olsner> I wouldn't drive at all during winter, but that's just me not having bothered to learn how to drive
08:21:59 <Vorpal> olsner, you don't have a driving license?
08:22:03 <elliott> we put sand......on road......now we pretend we are in country we actually like . . .
08:22:08 <olsner> Vorpal: nope, what would I do with one?
08:22:17 <Vorpal> elliott, what? That is far fetched
08:22:24 <Vorpal> sand on roads is common during winter...
08:22:34 <olsner> elliott: they don't use quite enough sand for that effect
08:22:42 <elliott> olsner: palm trees....on the road....i nwinter...
08:22:49 <pikhq_> elliott: Yeah, it's quite common. The idea is to increase the amount of traction.
08:22:57 <Vorpal> olsner, hm good to have a license still. In case you need to drive during work or such.
08:23:06 <elliott> tarski was a palm tree±true±facts
08:23:10 <pikhq_> Done in the US pretty much anywhere that can expect, oh, an inch of snow in the winter.
08:23:23 <elliott> Gregor i still need that video
08:23:35 <Vorpal> pikhq_, an inch? Come on, they hardly even plow anything but highways for that much. :P
08:23:43 <elliott> GREGOR I REQUIRE THE SAD RABBIT VIDEO
08:24:12 <elliott> im going to go on a rampage
08:24:21 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjMsQ_NUOMA no this is not it
08:24:29 <olsner> Vorpal: given how hard it is to code while driving, not sure why I'd be asked to drive :P
08:24:33 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Well, rather, if they can reasonably expect an inch of snow in the winter *they will actually have the ability to sand roads*.
08:24:33 <elliott> oh my god the rabbts voice
08:24:42 <elliott> oh my god the toroises voice
08:24:51 <pikhq_> To account for somewhat more extreme winters.
08:24:51 <Vorpal> olsner, where do you work btw?
08:24:52 <elliott> YOU ARE LAUGHING AT ME?????
08:25:01 <elliott> god this rabbits laugh is terrifying
08:25:17 <Vorpal> pikhq_, all of Sweden can expect significantly more than that
08:25:19 <elliott> is that finish written in neon
08:25:27 <elliott> dudes you are all mssing out on this video
08:25:31 <elliott> its the most amazing thing ive ever watched
08:25:40 <pikhq_> Cause a place like Houston is not really going to see snow more than once a decade.
08:25:44 <elliott> HE'LL TAKE LONG TIME TO REACH HERE
08:26:00 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Yeah, pretty much the northern half of the US sees more significant snowfalls.
08:26:19 <elliott> the tortoroyse has gone tu far
08:26:23 <Vorpal> come on, south Sweden is probably worse than I live. The landscape in Skåne is so flat and open.... You get cases of trains getting stuck due to 2 meter high snowdrifts having been blown up against the track.
08:26:32 <Vorpal> and Skåne is far to the south
08:26:39 <pikhq_> And, of course, there's Alaska, which actually is *permafrost* in a lot of it.
08:26:46 <elliott> does anyone know that sad rabbit video gregor linked once
08:27:02 <Vorpal> olsner, didn't they use bandwagons last winter to rescue people from a train that got stuck in Skåne iirc? I seem to remember reading about it.
08:27:10 <elliott> everyone has me on ignore noq
08:27:22 <olsner> Vorpal: I wouldn't have heard about that, I don't read news
08:27:23 <Vorpal> elliott, use the logs. See topic.
08:27:32 <elliott> Vorpal: uh what the fuck would i grep for
08:27:37 <Vorpal> olsner, anyway where do you work?
08:27:44 <Vorpal> elliott, -i "sad rabit" maybe?
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08:29:19 <Vorpal> pikhq_, anyway, how many people die in the traffic per year in US?
08:29:42 <Vorpal> or maybe per 10000 citizens or such.
08:29:49 <Vorpal> since that way it would be easier to compare the numbers
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08:31:01 <elliott> <ais523> elliott: you strike me as sorr of the person who /would/ own multiple sizes of rabbit just to be able to compare them
08:31:43 <olsner> "I want a bigger rabbit so I can compare it to this rabbit and say it's bigger!"
08:32:09 <elliott> hey i just realised that adding data to something can actually make it more compressible?
08:32:22 <elliott> printing all strings of length 999999 is really easy
08:32:31 <elliott> compared to printing one, truly-Kolgomorov-random string of length 999999
08:32:47 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Uh, fatalities per 100,000 people was 11.01 in 2009.
08:33:04 <Vorpal> pikhq_, let me check statistics for Sweden
08:33:13 <elliott> apparently only i fin this interesting
08:34:06 <Vorpal> pikhq_, 7,4 (cars) 3,8 (pedestrians)
08:34:10 <Vorpal> that is the stats for Sweden
08:34:32 <Vorpal> the former is per 100,000 cars
08:34:43 <Vorpal> the latter is per 100,000 citizens
08:34:44 <elliott> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/sbv this is hot
08:35:02 <Vorpal> pikhq_, now I suggest you get better driving exams
08:35:07 <olsner> so 7.4 out of 100000 cars die each year, but we don't know how many people were in them?
08:35:22 <Vorpal> pikhq_, why are your driving exams so bad?
08:35:32 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Per kilometers travelled is a better metric, BTW.
08:35:46 * pikhq_ is trying to convert this figure to metric...
08:36:27 <Vorpal> wait what, there seems to be statistics per amount of fuel. wtf
08:38:03 <Vorpal> pikhq_, I can't find any km travelled figures, so can't compare anyway
08:39:06 <Vorpal> pikhq_, this is what I can find basically: http://www.trafikverket.se/Privat/Trafiksakerhet/Olycksstatistik/Vag/Nationell-statistik/Arsdata-fran-1950/
08:39:16 <Vorpal> there is a button for English in the upper corner
08:39:34 <Vorpal> not sure if that page exists in English though
08:39:48 <olsner> they used to have vv.se as the address ... dvbf
08:40:14 <Vorpal> olsner, yes but vägvärket changed name to trafikverket as you know
08:41:03 <Vorpal> olsner, anyway what did "dvbf" mean?
08:41:06 <olsner> what, you don't know about dvbf?
08:41:52 <Vorpal> olsner, Jag chattar inte mycket på svenska. :P
08:41:59 <Vorpal> olsner, faktiskt inget alls.
08:42:10 <pikhq_> 39.3 accidents per hundred million vehicle miles per year for Sweden, 62.2 for the US.
08:42:20 <pikhq_> Yup, we need better driver education.
08:42:25 <olsner> fast det där är inte en chat-förkortning, den kommer faktiskt från verkligheten
08:42:39 <Vorpal> pikhq_, And we have the bad weather of the north states (apart from Alaska) in the whole country
08:42:43 <pikhq_> (source for both, Wolfram Alpha, and WHY WON'T IT USE METRIC, MILES IS A TERRIBLE UNIT)
08:42:45 <fizzie> Our local "Road Administration" (Tiehallinto; approximate translation) quasi-recently also changed their name to "Destia". There seems to be a trend for picking nonsense names to sound more modern. The post office changed their name to "Itella" too.
08:43:05 <olsner> they both sound italian
08:43:06 <pikhq_> Vorpal: You also have a population density on par with Kansas.
08:43:21 <Vorpal> olsner, säger folk "dvbf"? Jag har aldrig hört någon säga det högt. Skriva det kanske.
08:43:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, trafikverket is not a nonsense name though.
08:43:41 <pikhq_> Which you can drive all the way through and count on one hand the number of cars you've seen.
08:43:49 <pikhq_> (if you choose the path right, mind)
08:43:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, some other ones went for nonsense names though
08:44:10 <olsner> Vorpal: hmm, förkortningen kanske är text-specifik ja... vanligtvis säger man nog alla orden när man säger det
08:44:15 <Vorpal> <pikhq_> Which you can drive all the way through and count on one hand the number of cars you've seen. <-- can't do THAT in most of Sweden
08:44:22 <Vorpal> pikhq_, Sweden is rather unevenly settled.
08:44:41 <Vorpal> pikhq_, an average is not going to give you any useful numbers for most of Sweden.
08:45:10 <pikhq_> Kansas has pretty much a single giant glob of population, a handful of smaller ones, and hundreds of miles of corn fields.
08:45:52 <pikhq_> To avoid the globs of population, you only really need to keep off of the Interstate bisecting it.
08:46:13 <Vorpal> pikhq_, well not like that here. South half of Sweden have quite a lot of cities. In the far northen parts you can go for miles (Swedish ones, 10 km) without even seeing a road.
08:46:23 <Vorpal> (that was from a train though)
08:46:56 <Vorpal> of course most americans probably don't count 50000 inhabitants as a city...
08:47:19 <fizzie> That's funny, W|A gives me "24.4 accidents per hunderd million vehicle kilometres per year" by default, with a "show non-metric" button available.
08:47:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, which non-metric?
08:47:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, and what is the funny part?
08:48:07 <Vorpal> but what about furlongs?
08:48:13 <pikhq_> Oh, wait, there it is.
08:48:35 <Vorpal> geoip or cookies maybe?
08:48:40 <fizzie> The "funny" (in the "curious") part was that it defaults to non-metric for pikhq. I guess by IP geolocation or some-such.
08:48:56 <olsner> <Vorpal> but what about furlongs? <pikhq_> Oh, wait, there it is. <pikhq_> "Show metric".
08:49:11 <olsner> furlongs are now metric :P
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08:49:32 <pikhq_> fizzie: Which irks me, because metric is what I usually want, *especially* if comparing official statistics with any other country.
08:50:10 <fizzie> Our figure is 20.8 accidents per hundred million miles per year; but of course this is an even less populated place and so on.
08:50:29 <elliott> hmm, xor is one-bit addition
08:50:31 <elliott> what's one-bit subtraction?
08:50:37 <elliott> oh, just xor on complement, heh
08:50:55 <elliott> and multiplication is and, right?
08:50:57 <Vorpal> pikhq_, do you have those 2+1 roads in US?
08:51:01 <Vorpal> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2%2B1_road
08:51:37 <Vorpal> ah yes you have a handful says wikipedia
08:51:42 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Apparently in a handful of places.
08:51:47 <pikhq_> Vorpal: I haven't seen one.
08:52:03 <Vorpal> pikhq_, they increase safety a lot I heard.
08:52:41 <elliott> what is one-bit subtraction
08:52:45 <pikhq_> Compared with just having lines on the road indicating when you can go into the oncoming lane to pass? I'm sure.
08:53:24 <pikhq_> Wouldn't work as well with US drivers though. Blithering morons seem to not grok the idea of a "passing lane".
08:53:49 <fizzie> We have roads that do short 2+1-style stretches every now and then (alternating the side) with regular 1+1 road in-between the 2+1 sections.
08:53:54 <Vorpal> pikhq_, hm, well they would have to, since the lane shifts side every now and then
08:54:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah that is what a 2+1 road is, isn't it?
08:54:42 <fizzie> Vorpal: I understood from the wiki description that it stays three-lane all the time.
08:55:00 <fizzie> At least the side-change at the top diagram is like that.
08:55:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh in total yes.
08:55:02 <elliott> what logical op corresponds to one-bit subtraction
08:55:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, though there can be 1+1 sections sometimes
08:55:16 <Vorpal> but usually it is 3 in total
08:55:51 <elliott> thats amazing its like im on DURGZ
08:55:52 <Lymia> The carry bit would have to be different, right?
08:56:07 <elliott> thats not part of addition or subtraction
08:56:28 <Lymia> It is part of it when you're chaining them for higher bits, right?
08:57:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: Ours always -- well, at least I think so -- just have a one-sided 2+1 section, and then a longer 1+1 gap, and then the same thing for the other side. There's typically signage saying how far the next 2+1 part is.
08:58:09 <Lymia> elliott, oh, I see.
08:58:15 <Lymia> You can only add and subtract one, right?
08:58:53 <Lymia> One of those operations always rolls over, and the other operation ends up on that value naturally.
08:59:37 <fizzie> Vorpal: Maybe it's cheaper that way when retrofitting old roads, have to widen just parts of it instead of the whole thing.
09:01:25 <Vorpal> pikhq_, anyway I don't understand how traffic in US can work at all
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09:05:11 <fizzie> Incidentally, visited the UK National Museum of Computing (in Bletchley Park) last week. There was an http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliott_803 in there.
09:05:13 <Lymia> I recall an incident with a driver who was texting while driving on the highway.
09:05:26 <Lymia> They changed lane unintentionally more than once.
09:05:31 <Lymia> At one point, they were perpendicular to the road......
09:05:34 -!- elliott has joined.
09:05:57 <elliott> 09:05:11: <fizzie> Incidentally, visited the UK National Museum of Computing (in Bletchley Park) last week. There was an http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliott_803 in there.
09:06:18 <elliott> they never noticed i was sentient :(
09:07:10 <fizzie> Then I now have a picture of you, "yay".
09:07:26 <elliott> im the most girly looking retrocomputer
09:09:36 <pikhq_> Vorpal: It's a wonder that we still have population: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/Atlanta_75.85.jpg
09:10:23 <pikhq_> Yes, that really is 14 lanes.
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09:14:21 <elliott> pikhq_: that's nice and wide
09:14:58 <pikhq_> elliott: Not even the widest.
09:16:57 <pikhq_> elliott: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/RF_-_Houston_Texas_IH10.1.jpeg
09:17:44 <pikhq_> elliott: For reasons of not-being-apeshit, the lanes aren't all crammed together. But, that's a 26 lane highway.
09:19:01 <pikhq_> Yes, really, that is all the same damned road.
09:19:17 <pikhq_> With onramps and offramps to different parts of the road.
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09:23:51 <pikhq_> Also, that road system requires this: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/File:Texas_turnaround.svg
09:23:58 <pikhq_> And fuck I should sleep, it's 03:30.
09:36:41 -!- Miss has joined.
09:39:31 <elliott> do you know what this channel is about
09:40:09 <augur> Miss: programming languages, to be specific
09:40:17 <augur> to be even MORE specific!
09:40:39 <Lymia> augur, "crazy nutso ones" is a bit of an understatement, don't you think?
09:40:50 <elliott> this channel is the feather user and appreciation promotion group retroactiavte
09:40:54 <augur> Lymia: i dont know how to make it even more true
09:40:59 <Miss> Im not realy spake english
09:41:29 <Lymia> augur, see: Malborge
09:42:00 <augur> malborge or malbolge
09:42:45 <augur> missy be thrownin down
09:42:49 <augur> im the hottest rond
09:43:31 <elliott> Miss: r u the reincarnation of alfred tarski famous kawaii british pyhsicist...
09:43:58 <elliott> tarski is the most kawaii british physicist of all time
09:44:06 <elliott> hes as british as he is a physicist so shut your mouth
09:44:31 <Lymia> augur, Lymia is channeling her inner Japanese. Yep.
09:45:05 <augur> this is so confusing T_T
09:46:04 <Miss> Now im vacation
09:47:20 <Lymia> v
09:47:36 <Lymia>
09:47:37 <Lymia>
09:47:42 <Lymia> ^ It's just like Minecraft!
09:47:57 <Miss>
09:47:59 <Lymia>
09:48:08 <Lymia>
09:48:16 <Lymia> S
09:49:59 <elliott> ههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههه
09:50:01 <elliott> هههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههه
09:50:02 <elliott> ههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههه
09:50:03 <elliott> هههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههv
09:50:03 <elliott> هههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههه
09:50:04 <elliott> ههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههه
09:54:17 <Lymia> SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
10:00:40 -!- Miss has quit (Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://www.roomsapp.mobi).
10:04:59 -!- Miss has joined.
10:05:31 <Miss> ما شا الله انت سعودي
10:05:42 <Miss> قاعد تطقطق علي
10:07:53 <Miss> Do you anderstand !!!
10:08:33 <Miss> I'm speak arabic
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10:12:49 <ais523> has anything much been happening while I've been away from the Internet?
10:14:05 -!- Miss has left.
10:14:58 <elliott> and thus began ais523's realisation that nobody truly cares about him ;__;
10:15:07 <ais523> elliott: yes, but it's OK
10:15:10 <ais523> three days or so is not much
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10:38:28 <Vorpal> I think the weather confused Sweden and UK as of recently
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10:48:43 <augur> ais523: three days is not away
10:48:55 <ais523> well, it's more than usual for me
10:49:20 <ais523> hmm, checking Esolang's recent changes implies there's a new lang there that's actually interesting?
10:49:23 <ais523> I must look at it some time
11:01:49 <elliott> ?hoogle [a] -> Int -> a -> [a]
11:01:49 <lambdabot> Network.CGI.Protocol replace :: Eq a => a -> a -> [a] -> [a]
11:01:49 <lambdabot> Prelude enumFromThenTo :: Enum a => a -> a -> a -> [a]
11:01:50 <lambdabot> Data.IntMap findWithDefault :: a -> Key -> IntMap a -> a
11:03:15 <Deewiant> > (\a i x -> take i a ++ x : drop (i+1) a) [1,2,3,4] 2 5
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12:32:34 <elliott> -10 points on a reddit comment, awesome
12:32:49 <elliott> i've finally angered people enough to downvote me rather than just ignore me
12:33:06 <ais523> (I don't think Reddit has a search for lowest-rated posts by a particular user)
12:33:13 <elliott> ais523: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/hz87n/journalist_writes_programing_is_too_hard_wishes/c1zlub4?context=1
12:33:16 <Lymia> elliott, was it Minecraft related?
12:33:16 <ais523> also, I don't think I've ever downvoted a post at Reddit
12:33:30 <elliott> Lymia: no, although that would be a rather efficient way to get downvoted into oblivion
12:33:52 <ais523> to be fair, you are attacking a strawman there
12:34:03 <elliott> I am, but the original post was just as idiotic, so I don't really care.
12:34:08 <ais523> and people on the internet generally hate that
12:34:19 <elliott> They do? The whole comments are attacking a strawman of the post.
12:34:31 <elliott> Mostly latching on to the fact that Objective-C is mentioned as "lol blogger wants to make iphone apps".
12:35:01 <elliott> lol, it's twelve points lower than my comment "my envisiaone powerh boards is more advanced than ur phbb"
12:35:25 <elliott> and indeed, you can't order comments by bottom, it seems
12:35:35 <ais523> well, objective-C is a good language for writing iphone apps in
12:35:56 <ais523> because it has the best library support for that
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12:38:21 <ais523> [13:36] <ais523> it's not quite a non sequitur
12:38:23 <ais523> [13:36] <ais523> but almost
12:38:24 <ais523> [13:36] <ais523> I'm not arguing with you, just commenting on something vaguely related
12:39:15 <elliott> hmm, I can actually delete that karmawhoring /r/programming submission I made two years ago
12:39:20 <elliott> on the one hand, I'd feel good inside
12:39:25 <elliott> on the other hand, over one thousand karma :(
12:42:36 <ais523> is that link karma or comment karma?
12:42:47 <ais523> also, deleting something removes the karma from it? does that work for downvotes to?
12:42:58 <elliott> link karma, and hmm, good point
12:54:52 <ais523> hmm, a case of weird kerning made me see the :// in a URL as a smiley
12:55:05 <ais523> and now it's hard not to
12:55:51 <Sgeo> What was it a link to?
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12:56:14 <Sgeo> Also, wouldn't that affect discussions about it?
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12:56:52 <elliott> Sgeo: it would eradicate all the valuable discussions about the link that were had
12:57:48 <Sgeo> The link about iTunes going DRM-free?
13:00:50 <Sgeo> Apple wanted people to pay them to get rid of the DRM on their current collection?
13:01:23 <elliott> all the drm-free stuff is a separate product, so yeah
13:01:34 <elliott> i dont think its fully drm free yet even
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13:24:29 <elliott> IT IS MY DUTY TO NOTIFY THE MUCH LESS VIGILANT
13:24:37 <Sgeo> I have it in Google Reader
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13:51:19 <elliott> now where's oerjan when you need him
13:52:19 <oklofok> probably out partying like always
13:54:38 <elliott> he's such a ... party dude
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13:55:42 <oklofok> yeah oerjan is the "dude" in "partitude"
13:55:46 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 5 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
13:57:52 <Sgeo> "As far as we know, every force weakens with distance. "
13:58:06 <Sgeo> I thought strong force between quarks gets stronger?
13:58:41 <Sgeo> http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/astrology.html
13:59:26 <Lymia> The universe is expanding faster and faster now, right?
13:59:40 <Lymia> And... Einstein's universal constant fits.
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14:10:34 <Phantom_Hoover> <Sgeo> I thought strong force between quarks gets stronger?
14:11:10 <elliott> you know what they say, what doesn't quark you only makes you stronger
14:11:12 <Phantom_Hoover> It weakens with distance, but only up to a point; and colour confinement means that realistically you can only get them so far apart.
14:12:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Lymia, what are you trying to say it doesn't sound sensible.
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14:17:00 <Phantom_Hoover> (The cosmological constant really annoys me because of all the idiots who say "SEE EVEN WHEN EINSTEIN WAS WRONG HE WAS RIGHT".)
14:18:14 <Lymia> Yeah, I think that's it
14:18:22 <Lymia> How simple is the math anyways
14:19:15 <oklofok> just math it up and you're done
14:19:43 <Phantom_Hoover> (OK, so it's not all that complicated, but it's extremely hard to actually use it.)
14:20:27 <oklofok> don't listen to Phantom_Hoover, he doesn't even have a formal degree in math. so what was GR short for again?
14:20:40 <oklofok> you mean like general relativity? what the fuck is that, always wondered
14:21:54 <oklofok> if there's a safety net of course :\
14:22:24 <oklofok> what about all the gravity flying about in there?
14:22:38 <oklofok> what if some of it hits me in the face
14:23:03 <Lymia> I love how the "rubber sheet" explanation for gravity.... relies on gravity to work.
14:23:24 <Lymia> Recursive metaphors.
14:23:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Lymia, that is because it is a terrible explanation for it which is wrong in at least 3 ways.
14:24:14 <Sgeo> Does the geometry of space change the way the rubber sheet metaphor describes it changed if the rubber sheet was flattened out but the distortions made from a birds-eye view were still there?
14:24:21 <Sgeo> That is, is there a way to salvage it?
14:25:24 <Lymia> It's an explanation of gravity that relies on one's intuition about gravity to work, and not in a very direct way.
14:25:31 <Lymia> It's like saying "gravity causes gravity"
14:25:53 <Lymia> Plus, you'd need 4 dimensions to extend it to 3d.
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14:27:46 <Sgeo> Not as an explanation. But if you look at the rubber sheet from the top, the "straight lines" get distorted
14:28:03 <Sgeo> Is that distortion accurate to whatever way gravity gets distorted in actual reality?
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14:29:05 <Phantom_Hoover> 14:25:31: <Lymia> It's like saying "gravity causes gravity"
14:29:28 <Phantom_Hoover> It's nothing like the actual reason it happens, but it's not tautological.
14:32:18 <Phantom_Hoover> (The actual reason it happens is that the geometry of 4D spacetime is altered such that the 4-vector which points 'futurewards' is deflected to have a space component.)
14:33:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, do you actually understand general relativity? With that I mean, "able to calculate on it"
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14:34:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, err, what do you mean
14:35:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, have you considered that I have more amusing things to do than substitute for your scroll bar.
14:36:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh so "trampoline in space" is mentioned above?
14:36:13 <Vorpal> you could have said that
14:36:37 <oklofok> trampo llineeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees :DSDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
14:39:18 <Phantom_Hoover> 14:27:46: <Sgeo> Not as an explanation. But if you look at the rubber sheet from the top, the "straight lines" get distorted
14:40:22 <Sgeo> I assume that that no is to the question I aked that you didn't pate, rather than the tatement you pasted?
14:40:37 <Sgeo> My s key was being funky
14:41:18 <Sgeo> paste statements
14:44:21 <Lymia> Phantom_Hoover, so....
14:44:27 <Lymia> The flow of time is bent so that it has a direction
14:44:33 <Lymia> A direction that's not time related.
14:45:16 <elliott> Shut up magic science man.
14:46:52 <oklofok> magic science NERD :DDDDDDDDDDDDD
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15:20:31 <elliott> That comment is now at -52.
15:30:14 <Sgeo> elliott, which comment?
15:33:52 <Sgeo> Note to self: elliott isn't perfect
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16:00:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, you may also wish to note that I am in fact just this random 16-year-old, not some science prodigy.
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17:02:00 <Vorpal> Sgeo, you only found that out now?
17:03:25 <elliott> Sgeo has worryingly delusional beliefs about me most of the time.
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17:40:01 <Gregor> !perl if ("David" == "David") { print("True"); } else { print("False"); }
17:40:08 <Gregor> !perl if ("Nancy" == "Nancy") { print("True"); } else { print("False"); }
17:40:17 <Gregor> HAVE FUN WITH THAT ONE GUYS
17:41:15 <Gregor> No, that is not the reason :P
17:41:23 <Gregor> But you guys will NEVER figure out the reason.
17:41:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Some kind of localisation thing combined with weird comparison!
17:42:14 <elliott> Gregor: and == is numeric equality
17:42:22 <elliott> "David" reads as 0, but "Nancy" reads as NaN
17:42:27 <elliott> and we all know nan isn't equal to itself
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17:43:38 <quintopia> also why you chose my given name as your "normal" test case, i do not know
17:43:44 <quintopia> you just wanted to puing me i guess
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17:52:01 <monqy> !perl if ("Nancy" == "Nancy") { print("True"); } else { print("False"); }
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17:52:20 <monqy> wait oops I messed it up
17:52:45 <monqy> somehow it worked in private
17:55:02 <oerjan> <elliott> its a conspiracy
17:55:12 <oerjan> the Dave conspiracy, to be precise
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17:57:46 <oerjan> 19:55 oerjan> <elliott> its a conspiracy
17:57:46 <oerjan> 19:55 oerjan> the Dave conspiracy, to be precise
17:58:13 <elliott> shut up i'm thinking of a hi-LARIOUS reference to respond with
18:04:25 <elliott> will you guys miss it if i start typing numbers normally again be honest
18:05:01 <monqy> !perl if ("Dave" == "Dave") { print("True"); } else { print("False"); }
18:05:49 <oerjan> elliott: we'll be shattered by grief
18:06:08 <HackEgo> 71) * oerjan swats FireFly since he's easier to hit -----### <FireFly> Meh * FireFly dies \ 87) <xan> if you watch jaws backwards it's a movie about a giant shark that throws up so many people they have to open a beach \ 161) <ais523> cpressey: I have actually done a waterfall-model project that almost worked <cpressey>
18:06:33 <monqy> I should just accept that perl makes no sense
18:06:35 <Lymia> !perl if ("Nancy" === "Nancy") { print("True"); } else { print("False"); }
18:06:36 <EgoBot> syntax error at /tmp/input.30620 line 1, near "==="
18:06:55 <Lymia> !perl tell me why perl is so crazy
18:06:55 <EgoBot> Can't locate object method "so" via package "crazy" (perhaps you forgot to load "crazy"?) at /tmp/input.30696 line 1.
18:07:14 <oerjan> monqy: um the statement you tried is the one which _does_ make sense
18:08:12 <monqy> does egobot filter control characters out of its input
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18:09:30 <monqy> I was secretly putting bolds in there to try to get it to mess up
18:09:31 <elliott> i sure am shitty at max/msp
18:09:44 <monqy> !perl if ("Daveq" == "Dave") { print("True"); } else { print("False"); }
18:09:49 <oerjan> monqy: oh hm the _channel_ filters some too
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18:10:03 <monqy> oh that makes sense
18:10:03 <elliott> that lymia hugs way too much.
18:10:14 <elliott> monqy: apologise to perl plzkthx
18:10:54 <olsner> as if that would work, but it *would* have been fun if it did
18:11:17 <monqy> I guess that explains why the nancy test worked in private too
18:12:04 <elliott> perl has secret features in it to not allow people to mock it
18:12:27 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to JokeKiller.
18:13:20 <olsner> btw, there's a manpage "console_codes" that describes a lot of escape sequences, tried to display my powers of arcane knowledge using ESC#8 the other week but someone just looked it up in the manpage and pasted the description
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18:55:31 <pikhq> It occurs to me that I could actually have this thing generate Autocrap.
18:55:37 <pikhq> I'm not *going* to, but I could.
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19:00:42 <olsner> I bet it could generate intercal code too, maybe you'll make it do that?
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19:17:37 <olsner> this channel is now boring
19:23:51 <pikhq> BUTBUT DECLARATIVE BUILD SYSTEMS
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19:26:52 <olsner> pff! build systems are for losers who need to keep changing their code, just write the code until it's done, then compile it and distribute the result
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19:33:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, you cannot make references if they don't even show up on Google.
19:34:20 <elliott> but would sgeo ever make reference to anything non-crappy enough to show up on google?
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20:02:54 * pikhq can has a proper solver for c99
20:05:23 <pikhq> You ask the solver system to look for something. It executes the callback for it and caches the result.
20:06:10 <elliott> pikhq: [asterisk]executes each callback for it in order (of preference) and caches the result of the first one to succeed.
20:06:15 <elliott> STOP TAINTING MY DESIGN WITH YOUR SIMPLIFICATIONS
20:07:43 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/CcVf
20:08:46 <CakeProphet> elliott: oh my god this time travel is getting out of hand.
20:08:55 <elliott> CakeProphet: lmao; what page are you on?
20:09:23 <CakeProphet> and these troll romances. WHAT AM I EVEN READING NOW.
20:10:17 <pikhq> elliott: Unlike Autoconf, I refuse to do a comprehensive test for, well, every major C99 feature.
20:10:46 <pikhq> elliott: If it claims to be C99 but isn't, well, I'm not cleaning up after the asshole compiler dev.
20:10:53 <elliott> pikhq: wait, you don't actually support multiple solutions for a single goal?
20:11:08 <pikhq> elliott: Whaddya mean?
20:11:09 <elliott> as it stands you can't add another separate solution to use the posix c99 command
20:11:17 <elliott> solutions are a _list_ of functions
20:11:40 <pikhq> Oh, dur, that's a relatively easy fix.
20:12:03 <elliott> CakeProphet: A recap won't be necessary.
20:12:13 <elliott> You are very, very close to the end of actfiveactone, btw.
20:14:21 <Sgeo> Does CakeProphet know names?
20:14:49 <elliott> Sgeo: Is CakeProphet Sgeo?
20:14:57 <elliott> No? Then yes, CakeProphet knows names.
20:15:08 <elliott> CakeProphet might be Sgeo though.
20:15:25 <Sgeo> CakeProphet: Be Sgeo
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20:24:39 <elliott> CakeProphet: Hey, remember whining about the pesterlogs in the first few pages? :D
20:25:10 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I much preferred the memos to the pesterlogs, TbH.
20:25:24 <elliott> Anyone who doesn't like pesterlogs is a bad person and should die.
20:25:35 <elliott> I will speak no further on the matter.
20:27:47 <CakeProphet> no I like the pesterlogs, I'm just kind of tired of reading at this point.
20:28:20 <CakeProphet> I think I enjoyed them more with the humans. Less drama stuff.
20:28:45 <elliott> Act Five Act One... isn't typical.
20:29:16 <elliott> But it's a vital part of the story, and you only find out why on the last page, 4524.
20:29:50 <elliott> Hivebent was planned pretty much as soon as Homestuck began, so it's not like Hussie decided to make the comic all edgy all of a sudden.
20:30:46 <CakeProphet> actually all of this later stuff seems like it was written before the beginning, or at the same time.
20:31:16 <CakeProphet> because it would be ridiculous if he just tied everything in after-the-fact.
20:31:19 <elliott> I think pretty much everyone finds Act 5 Act 2 more enjoyable than Hivebent.
20:32:43 <pikhq> elliott: Kay, so. In theory, you should be able to do any number of solvers now.
20:33:20 <pikhq> Hrm, wait, minor issue. lappend does an end append, not a front append.
20:33:39 <pikhq> And I at least *presume* that it makes most sense for later solvers to take precedence over earlier ones.
20:34:41 <elliott> pikhq: Does it? I'd define gcc first because it's preferred, and then c99 as a "last" resort
20:34:48 <elliott> But I suppose for extensibility, that is preferable
20:48:14 <elliott> It's a pretty epic ending :P
20:48:49 <pikhq> elliott: I am *rapidly* approaching the point where my tests need to be in a seperate file. :P
21:06:25 <elliott> "To keep whipping my personal horse, I maintain that TCE changes the language semantics in that it changes the kinds of computation the language can perform. With it a state machine can be built out of mutually recurring functions and run virtually forever instead of crashing, that sounds like a semantic change to me."
21:06:30 <elliott> let's laugh at this idiot lol
21:10:38 <monqy> wow who would even think that
21:13:39 <olsner> sounds a bit too intellectual to be guido though
21:13:54 <elliott> they're pro-TCE, so of course they're not guido
21:14:26 <olsner> oh, pro-TCE? that wasn't too obvious
21:14:37 <Sgeo> The _kind it can perform_?
21:15:12 <Sgeo> I don't think I'd think to criticise it if it weren't for the criticism in here, but now it's been criticised in here, I easiy see what's wrong with that statement. This is scary.
21:16:12 <olsner> that's the power of #esoteric empowering you, or something
21:16:47 <elliott> i like how by their logic, buying more ram changes a language's semantics
21:17:22 <elliott> "TL;DR: Prefer a DSL over a state machine any day of the week."
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21:19:03 <monqy> what if the dsl models a state machine
21:19:29 <monqy> domain-specific language
21:19:34 <olsner> monqy: FSM-DSL-C E P T I O N
21:20:24 <monqy> I never saw that movie is it any good
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21:26:09 <elliott> "State machines are like gotos, each transition is a jump. The main difference is that unlike gotos, state machines have no built in language/debugging support which makes it more tedious to figure out what is going on inside them when they break."
21:26:22 <olsner> state machines are like rube-goldberg machines
21:27:08 <Gregor> Apparently there's language/debugging support built into gotos.
21:27:09 <monqy> state machines are like gotos except more structured
21:29:37 <olsner> I would like to know what goes on inside gotos when they break
21:30:36 <monqy> gosomeplaceotherthan
21:30:37 <olsner> hmm, let's reparse the quote, what was it that broke again?
21:30:45 <olsner> meh, they're probably wrong whatever it was they were saying
21:32:50 <elliott> hmm, what if there was a blend of come from and goto, where it had to be a two-way link
21:34:06 <olsner> I think many compilers actually will set up the two-way link (in a way) while compiling a gotoful program
21:34:27 <olsner> if it does ssa it'll need to know the come from's
21:34:52 <elliott> yeah, comefrom would be much more civilised if the line in question had to consent to it
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21:41:37 <olsner> and now for some zebra water sports: http://i.imgur.com/q8IYg.png
21:46:39 <olsner> Gregor: maybe you'll know this: do I want pickled herring and schnaps for breakfast on August 27?
21:47:27 <Vorpal> olsner, for *breakfast*
21:47:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Ignore Vorpal, he knows nothing of the wonder of pickled herring and schnapps.
21:48:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, have you ever eaten that
21:48:18 <olsner> Vorpal: it'll probably actually be second breakfast though
21:49:10 <Vorpal> olsner, Jag har vissa dubier angående schnappsen.
21:49:45 <Vorpal> du hade inte körkort va?
21:49:47 <olsner> jag har fortfarande inte tagit körkort nej
21:49:53 <olsner> kommer inte ha gjort till dess heller
21:50:00 <Vorpal> olsner, va, det har ju gått flera timmar sedan dess!!
21:50:14 <olsner> sedan slutet av augusti i år? nej, det har inte varit än
21:50:34 <Vorpal> nej jag menar sedan du nämnde det :P
21:51:22 <Vorpal> olsner, okej men jag är absolutist, så jag är fortfarande emot spritintaget. Men beslutar du dig ändå för det så kan jag inte ge några råd om bästa val.
21:51:35 <Vorpal> olsner, varför inte surströmming?
21:53:09 <olsner> Vorpal: dels för att det inte erbjuds, men framförallt för att jag inte vet hur man äter det
21:53:22 <Vorpal> olsner, har du aldrig prövat det?
21:54:04 <Vorpal> olsner, jag önskar eder en god natt.
22:01:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Seriously, if you're going to speak to each other in Swedish, do it in a /msg.
22:01:49 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not very polite to carry out a conversation in front of everyone else that most of us don't understand.
22:01:54 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: it's all vorpal's fault
22:02:14 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, yes, of course, but only you can stop Vorpal fire.
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22:04:53 <olsner> the short summary is that 1) I haven't gotten a drivers license since this morning when it was last discussed 2) august is in the future 3) vorpal is an absolutist and disapproves of consuming alcohol
22:05:46 <Sgeo> I used to be more irritated by alcohol
22:06:22 <olsner> Sgeo: you're not supposed to put it in your eyes
22:08:46 <Gregor> `addquote <Sgeo> I used to be more irritated by alcohol <olsner> Sgeo: you're not supposed to put it in your eyes
22:08:49 <HackEgo> 457) <Sgeo> I used to be more irritated by alcohol <olsner> Sgeo: you're not supposed to put it in your eyes
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22:19:09 <olsner> neat: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ValuesOfBetaMayGiveRiseToDom
22:19:37 <olsner> (there's that word again: neat neat neat)
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