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00:02:00 <oerjan> the number of \'s between each " goes as 2^n-1
00:02:00 <oerjan> !haskell :t Data.Function.fix (concatMap show)
00:02:02 <EgoBot> Data.Function.fix (concatMap show) :: [Char]
00:02:28 <oerjan> that one _should_ have done something similar, characterwise
00:02:42 -!- comex has quit (Excess Flood).
00:02:59 <oerjan> but it doesn't... because show on a Char isn't lazy enough to give the initial ' without looking at the character first...
00:03:16 <oerjan> but if we cheat a bit we can see what that should have looked like
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00:03:35 <Gregor> !sh while true; do echo -n y; done
00:03:58 <oerjan> !haskell take 100 $ Data.Function.fix (('\'':).tail.concatMap show)
00:04:01 <EgoBot> "'\\'''\\\\''\\'''\\'''\\'''\\\\''\\\\''\\'''\\'''\\\\''\\'''\\'''\\'''\\\\''\\'''\\'''\\'''\\\\''\\'''\\'''\\'''\\\\''\\\\''\\'''\\''"
00:04:13 <Gregor> Probably something to do with how it outputs that.
00:04:15 <oerjan> !haskell putStrLn . take 100 $ Data.Function.fix (('\'':).tail.concatMap show)
00:04:16 <EgoBot> '\'''\\''\'''\'''\'''\\''\\''\'''\'''\\''\'''\'''\'''\\''\'''\'''\'''\\''\'''\'''\'''\\''\\''\'''\''
00:04:20 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
00:04:25 <Gregor> It might happen to work if it flushes.
00:04:30 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
00:04:46 <Lymia> !haskell Data.Function.fix (('\'':).tail.concatMap show)
00:04:59 <EgoBot> "'\\'''\\\\''\\'''\\'''\\'''\\\\''\\\\''\\'''\\'''\\\\''\\'''\\'''\\'''\\\\''\\'''\\'''\\'''\\\\''\\'''\\'''\\'''\\\\''\\\\''\\'''\\'''\\\\''\\\\''\\'''\\'''\\\\''\\'''\\'''\\'''\\\\''\\'''\\'''\\'''\\\\''\\\\''\\'''\\'''\\\\''\\'''\\'''\\'''\\\\''\\'''\\'''\\'''\\\\''\\'''\\'''\\'''\\\\''\\\\''\\'''\\'''\\\\''\\'''\\'''\\'''\\\\''\\'''\\'''\\'''\\\\''\\'''\\'''\\'''\\\\''\\\\''\\'''\\'''\\\\''\\'''\\'''\\'''\\\\''\\'''\\'''\\'''\\\\''\\'''\\'''\\'''\\\\''\\\\
00:05:03 <oerjan> Gregor: weird that it would flush better with that than with an infinite list. maybe it also has something to do with speed of printing...
00:05:27 <oerjan> maybe it normally times out before getting far enought that ghc needs to flush
00:06:03 <oerjan> !haskell Data.Function.fix ('a':)
00:06:21 -!- comex has joined.
00:06:47 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
00:07:19 <EgoBot> userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp.
00:07:27 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: acro aol austro bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes chaos chiqrsx9p choo ctcp dc decide drawl drome dubya echo eehird ehird elmer fudd google graph gregor hello id jethro kraut lperl lsh map num ook pansy pi pikhq pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler prefixes python redneck reverse rimshot rot13 rot47 sadbf sanetemp sfedeesh sffedeesh simplename slashes svedeesh swedish ustemp valspeak warez wc yodawg
00:08:23 <oerjan> Vorpal: netsplat a moment ago, after not responding for a while
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00:15:17 <Lymia> !haskell Data.Function.fix (\x -> "LOOK BEHIND YOU " + x)
00:15:44 <Lymia> !haskell Data.Function.fix (\x -> "LOOK BEHIND YOU " ++ x)
00:16:38 <Lymia> !haskell Data.Function.fix show
00:16:53 <EgoBot> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
00:18:30 <oerjan> maybe it on the contrary works because fix show is _slow_...
00:19:11 <oerjan> !haskell Data.Function.fix ("\\\""++)
00:19:40 <oerjan> or maybe EgoBot just likes Lymia.
00:20:10 * hagb4rd chekcs his codepage configuration
00:20:17 <Lymia> !haskell Data.Function.fix (\x -> show $ "LOOK BEHIND YOU " ++ x)
00:20:31 <EgoBot> "\"LOOK BEHIND YOU \\\"LOOK BEHIND YOU \\\\\\\"LOOK BEHIND YOU \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"LOOK BEHIND YOU \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"LOOK BEHIND YOU \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"LOOK BEHIND YOU \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"LOOK BEHIND YOU \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
00:21:04 <oerjan> i'm wondering if there may be some kind of balance... it needs to print enough, and _then_ time out?
00:22:27 <hagb4rd> would be kool to see just the parts with high information density
00:22:27 <oerjan> !haskell "testing... " ++ Data.Function.fix id
00:22:30 <EgoBot> *** Exception: stack overflow
00:23:17 <oerjan> Gregor: it seems EgoBot then went on to try running it as a _module_ afterwards...
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01:03:09 * pikhq_ looks for good compile-time undefined behavior
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02:54:37 <tswett> elliott: you're male most of the time, right?
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02:55:40 <elliott> tswett: That's... a technically true statement :P
02:56:55 <tswett> So, my question is true.
02:57:25 <tswett> Does that mean that it's a good, precise question, whose answer is likely to enlighten rather than confuse?
02:57:38 <elliott> This sure is a conversation.
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03:34:35 <elliott> tswett: You're just OUCH most of the time, right?
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03:58:31 <oerjan> !unlambda `````.S``c.u.c.e.s.s
03:58:32 <EgoBot> ./interps/unlambda/unlambda.bin: file /tmp/input.32133: parse error
03:58:58 <oerjan> !unlambda ````.S``c.u.c.e.s.s
03:59:46 <oerjan> !unlambda ``````c`.S.u.c.e.s.si
04:00:07 <oerjan> zzo38: was that your solution too?
04:01:29 <oerjan> !unlambda `````c`.S.u.c``c.e.si
04:01:30 <EgoBot> ./interps/unlambda/unlambda.bin: file /tmp/input.32431: parse error
04:01:48 <oerjan> !unlambda ````c`.S.u.c``c.e.si
04:02:25 <elliott> What are you trying to do, BTW?
04:02:51 <oerjan> zzo38 mentioned he'd got this golf down to 21 in unlambda
04:03:07 <zzo38> oerjan: That was not quite my solution but it was similar to that
04:04:22 <oerjan> !unlambda ``````c`c`.S.u.c.e.si
04:04:22 <EgoBot> ./interps/unlambda/unlambda.bin: file /tmp/input.32699: parse error
04:04:26 <oerjan> !unlambda `````c`c`.S.u.c.e.si
04:06:39 <oerjan> zzo38: oh wait there should be a . at the end?
04:08:27 <oerjan> !unlambda ```c```c`.S.u.c.e.si
04:08:56 <zzo38> Post to anarchy golf if you did it good.
04:09:33 <oerjan> i will. what's the open code-statistics?
04:10:24 <zzo38> I always like to select that option. It means it tells you how many binary/alphanumeric/symbols
04:11:01 <zzo38> (Look below, under the "Statistics" column for the summary of solutions, that is what those numbers means.)
04:11:09 <oerjan> yay my first golf submission (afair)
04:14:51 <oerjan> huh someone manage brainfuck in 18 bytes
04:15:08 <augur> what the hell are you doing, oerjan
04:15:18 <zzo38> oerjan: It is a BFI-specific code probably.
04:15:37 <zzo38> It takes advantage of unintentional features in BFI.
04:15:37 <oerjan> augur doesn't know about code golf?
04:16:24 <augur> i mean, i might, but
04:16:35 <elliott> oerjan: btw if you submit with a web browser it appends \r\n I think... or wait, does it strip all whitespace
04:16:38 <oerjan> zzo38: hm it cannot be just ! with input, that would have been shorter
04:16:52 <elliott> I do know that it uses \r\n newlines with the web form though so if you have any newlines file submission is best
04:16:58 <zzo38> (As you can see, it is obviously not a proper brainfuck, since it has 1 binary and 7 letters (the word "Success" is in there)
04:17:02 <oerjan> elliott: erm i used the form, no newlines
04:17:06 <elliott> <oerjan> zzo38: hm it cannot be just ! with input, that would have been shorter
04:17:10 <elliott> bfi allows self-modifying code or something
04:17:18 <zzo38> elliott: Yes it does do that. It does not strip any whitespaces
04:17:28 <elliott> zzo38: but does it append \r\n with the web form?
04:17:35 <elliott> so the web form always costs you two bytes
04:17:48 <zzo38> elliott: Yes it does append \r\n when using the HTML form
04:17:55 <zzo38> elliott: Yes it allows accessing the code-space (and modifying it)
04:18:02 <elliott> oerjan: you should make a file locally and upload it to save two bytes
04:18:15 <zzo38> But it does not append \r\n to the end.
04:18:22 <zzo38> It only converts newlines to \r\n
04:18:32 <elliott> <zzo38> elliott: Yes it does append \r\n when using the HTML form
04:18:46 <zzo38> I know, I made a mistake in the typing sentence
04:18:49 <zzo38> I didn't mean that.
04:18:58 <oerjan> elliott: well it counted it as a winning entry of 20 bytes, so i must have done it right :P
04:18:59 <zzo38> I didn't really say all those things that I said.
04:20:47 <zzo38> Some people said these kind of challenges are bad challenge. Actually they are just much more simple challenge than the other ones; it doesn't make it a bad challenge (as you can see from everything).
04:21:10 <elliott> constant output is a bad challenge
04:21:14 <elliott> constant, trivial output that is
04:21:25 <elliott> because there are exactly two possible types of submission
04:21:34 <elliott> - print it in the shortest normal way in the language (i.e. with the string embedded)
04:21:40 <elliott> - exploit the interpreter/language to have the string built in
04:21:49 <elliott> neither of these are interesting after, like, five billion such challenges
04:22:04 <pikhq> invalid command name "::build::dc::flag_read"
04:22:06 <zzo38> Even the "Zero" challenge I came with a shorter solution in shell script that other people had, at first. And then someone else figure it out afterward.
04:22:19 <oerjan> elliott: ok but it was interesting the first time in unlambda, at least :P
04:22:28 <zzo38> elliott: Yes, I agree they are not as good as other challenges. But I don't call them "bad challenge".
04:22:42 <elliott> because there haven't been many good challenges lately in anagolf at all
04:22:52 <elliott> and the same person kept submitting bad challenges recently
04:22:54 <pikhq> ::groups is the namespace all my building semi-objects are in.
04:23:12 <pikhq> (I seem to have implemented half an object system without even thinking about it)
04:24:34 <zzo38> Can you do "Zero" challenge in five bytes of Bash or fish, or four bytes of Zsh, or five bytes of Zsh with symbol only? Maybe. It is not too difficult to figure out, although it is not the most obvious thing (it should be somewhat obvious once you figure it out, which is not too difficult to do)
04:25:58 <zzo38> Or, in Forth, it is very simple. But in symbol only, it is slightly more difficult? (I used a feature which I think is specific to gforth)
04:27:25 <zzo38> With the "PubSubHubbub" challenge, you probably cannot get any shorter than the obvious literal way in most programming languages, but some might be able to do shorter.
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04:45:02 <zzo38> Do you know any Windows binaries of the C binding of LLVM?
04:46:07 <Gregor> Currently, I'm page 10 on Google's results for "gregor"
04:46:20 <Gregor> Some Mendel jerk is clogging up the works, but there are a few others too.
04:46:44 <Gregor> And this Samsa creature.
04:46:58 <oerjan> Gregor: well that must be a bug
04:48:55 <Gregor> Argh, and of course some AOP guy beats me out if I look for gregor computer science
04:49:26 <Gregor> Heyoooo, #1 for gregor javascript though
04:54:12 <elliott> The worst thing to be first for
04:54:22 <elliott> Like coming first in a Terrible Person competition
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05:05:03 <pikhq> elliott: Thought you might like to know that I've got my stuff up on Github.
05:05:07 <pikhq> elliott: https://github.com/pikhq/town
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05:07:24 <Gregor> Ohhh, so this is to tup sort of as autotools are to make
05:07:51 <pikhq> What did you think I was doing?
05:08:20 <pikhq> If I was doing a full stack, I'd have a reimplementation of tup going. :P
05:10:41 <pikhq> Something that I suspect is going to help me extensively when I get around to it is that my autoconf-alike and automake-alike are the *precise same thing*, thereby eliminating all need for a libtool-alike.
05:11:46 <pikhq> (as I think the *only* justification for libtool now is that Automake is too stupid to allow for outputting different rules based on what Autoconf gets.)
05:12:49 <Gregor> ... automake can output different rules based on autoconf.
05:13:15 <pikhq> Uh, no it can't. Automake runs before ./configure and potentially on a different system.
05:13:51 <Gregor> Automake generates a Makefile.in, not a Makefile, the rules that actually make it into the Makefile can be controlled by configuration.
05:13:57 <pikhq> It can conditionally *execute* rules, but that's not the same thing, now is it?
05:14:26 <pikhq> There are no "rules that actually make it into the Makefile"; ./configure just plugs in values for variables.
05:16:03 <pikhq> That has got to have some *scary* implementation logic.
05:16:26 <pikhq> Okay, what's *really* going to help me is that my stack isn't in M4M4SHM4MakePerl.
05:16:52 <pikhq> And add another "SH" in there if you're using libtool.
05:17:14 <Gregor> How it works btw is that it prefixes every line with either @<condition>_TRUE@ or @<condition>_FALSE@, and I'll bet you can guess what those get set to :)
05:17:40 <pikhq> That is brilliant. Utterly insane, but brilliant.
05:19:26 <pikhq> Another victory for not-M4Make.
05:20:18 <Gregor> I wonder if people would complain if I started writing all my C using M4 macros.
05:26:43 <pikhq> Not that that should stop you; the Bourne shell is written using CPP macros extensively, after all.
05:26:54 <pikhq> (to make it look like FORTRAN, IIRC)
05:28:55 <zzo38> Gregor: I don't particularly thing M4 is good for writing C programs but there is different opinions. It should be possible to invent programming language which M4 works very well as a preprocessor.
05:30:55 <pikhq> zzo38: M4 was designed to be a better C preprocessor.
05:31:42 <pikhq> Though it's pretty generic.
05:32:18 <zzo38> I however don't think it is particularly good for preprocessing C codes, in my opinion.
05:32:31 <pikhq> Oh, sorry, it was meant as a FORTRAN preprocessor. Never mind.
05:33:06 <zzo38> Maybe it is better for that; I don't know much about FORTRAN.
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06:09:25 <zzo38> How do I download the LLVM binaries (and header files) for using library with C? I read some things about it and have some idea to make something with it.
06:17:41 <elliott> zzo38: llvm has no binary builds, just compile it yourself
06:17:54 <elliott> pikhq: mind if I offer critiques :D
06:18:01 <pikhq> elliott: Not at all.
06:18:13 <elliott> pikhq: ok well first disclaimer i havent actually really read your code much at all
06:18:29 <elliott> pikhq: in "c needs c99", the winning solver of c99 should take over the c command completely
06:18:40 <elliott> why? because some compilers might use --link-with rather than -l, etc.
06:18:48 <elliott> they need to know everything the program wants from the C compiler
06:18:52 <elliott> and react in a way appropriate to them
06:18:59 <elliott> now, this actually applies to all types of tools
06:19:11 <elliott> and the c you "needs c99" on has nothing to do with the c99 that wins!
06:19:16 <elliott> so I feel like it should actually read "needs c : c99"
06:19:25 <elliott> i.e., I need the command c in my local namespace, that's a c99
06:19:32 <pikhq> elliott: Holy crap you're proposing it be more generic than Autotools. That's frightening.
06:19:43 <elliott> and c99 would be aliased to {c c99} (because many solvers will want to find a C compiler, /then/ see if it supports that standard)
06:19:55 <zzo38> elliott: But I would need to install all sorts of stuff to make it work and compile properly it seems, I want to download the binary
06:19:58 <elliott> pikhq: but I think this model would actually allow it to work, unchanged, for Windows
06:20:12 <pikhq> elliott: True, there is that.
06:20:25 <elliott> pikhq: of course, most C compilers will just defer to the default functions to do things
06:20:30 <zzo38> The download page does list the binaries. But it doesn't seem to be the one I am looking for.
06:20:54 <elliott> pikhq: the library-finder would return {link-with foo} rather than -lfoo, but it'd still have {cflags-ldflags foo bar} from pkg-config, there's no way to avoid that
06:20:59 <elliott> and the compiler would just translate it accordingly
06:21:07 <zzo38> Is "LLVM Binaries for Mingw32/x86" the right one?
06:21:07 <elliott> pikhq: the good thing is, I think this actually simplifies things
06:21:12 <elliott> zzo38: oh, yes, it would be
06:21:20 <elliott> pikhq: because right now the "c" command is kind of... weird and a pain
06:21:55 <zzo38> Do those binaries support the API though?
06:22:04 <elliott> zzo38: download and see :)
06:22:05 <elliott> pikhq: btw, does this generate the same Tupfile for a project no matter what machine you run it on?
06:22:16 <elliott> pikhq: because if so, I think that should be a separate step, like "town init"
06:22:25 <elliott> and then town for the users will only generate the config file
06:22:28 <pikhq> No. It generates a Tupfile only on configuration.
06:22:30 <elliott> which seems... cleaner to me
06:22:36 <elliott> is the Tupfile always the same?
06:22:40 <elliott> I mean, it should be, since it should use @CC@
06:22:54 <elliott> If you don't use the tools correctly you will invent another autohell :)
06:22:55 <pikhq> Because, uh, I didn't make it do that.
06:23:10 <elliott> Go make it do that X-D ...or I will
06:23:15 <elliott> If I can figure out Practical Tcl Coding.
06:23:42 <zzo38> In addition to C99, you might also need to have one for C89, GNU89, GNU99, and the newer draft standards.
06:23:48 <pikhq> My Tcl is probably a bit hard to jump into; I tend to be a bit metaprogramming-crazy about it.
06:23:55 <pikhq> zzo38: Definitely do, it's just unimplemented.
06:24:05 <elliott> zzo38: yeah, thankfully that can go in a separate library
06:24:29 <elliott> (I imagine you'd also have libraries for things like "c needs qt" where listing all the libraries and cflags is a huge pain.)
06:24:55 <pikhq> elliott: Actually, Qt 4 does pkg-config, so it's not that big of a pain.
06:25:04 <elliott> OK, but there's still horrible things :P
06:25:29 <pikhq> c++ needs libs QtGui
06:25:43 <pikhq> Bam, it pulls in Qt.
06:26:03 <elliott> So yeah, what I am saying is: the "foo needs thing-that-actually-specifies-what-foo-is" thing is silly and I was silly for thinking of it.
06:26:41 <elliott> pikhq: Have you got any up-to-date example files?
06:27:07 <pikhq> That dc one is what I've been using to test.
06:27:50 <pikhq> program dc {c needs c99;c needs libs gc;in-directory src/;c sources dc.c error.c main.c stack.c}
06:28:32 <zzo38> And such things as, SDL, X window system, POSIX, audio, libpng, zlib, cross-compiling to different targets, maybe even one for literate programming, etc.
06:28:54 <elliott> c99 sources dc.c error.c main.c stack.c
06:29:07 <elliott> ("needs c : c99" is stupid, it should just define it with the given name of the thing.)
06:29:21 <elliott> pikhq: Ohbtw, does your gcc c99 finder still print out "Searching for c99" itself?
06:29:43 <pikhq> elliott: No, that's in the solve function ATM.
06:29:44 <elliott> Because requirements (what I call things that have solvers for them) should instead just have a "friendly name" associated with them. (in this case, "a C99 compiler")
06:30:00 <elliott> So in this case, c99 would be defined as an alias for {c c99}, which would have friendly name "a C99 compiler".
06:30:34 <pikhq> *Unfortunately*, it's also currently outputting that for cached results.
06:31:03 <elliott> Can it cache to a file? It should be able to cache to a file. Specifically a file in ~/.cache.
06:31:12 <elliott> Why? Because it could find a C99 compiler ONCE and never do it ever again for another project.
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06:31:21 <elliott> This is what we in the biz call FINALLY CONFIGURE TAKES 0 SECONDS.
06:31:44 <zzo38> And then, maybe delete ~/.cache in case you need to change something, is it?
06:32:03 <elliott> I'd have a "town flush" command to wipe it out or something.
06:33:04 <pikhq> elliott: Uh, the appropriate values for that can change rather *often* based on environment.
06:33:09 <zzo38> Like maybe a file in directory ~/.cache/towncache/* and then you can just delete it using "rm" command
06:33:23 <zzo38> And change the permissions in case you want to tell it not to use the cache.
06:33:24 <pikhq> Which is the reason that Autoconf never has enabled caching by default.
06:33:26 <elliott> pikhq: How often will the appropriate C99 compiler change?
06:33:34 <elliott> pikhq: How often will the appropriate commands to link to Qt change?
06:33:50 <CakeProphet> elliott: any idea why the pl plugin of lambdabot would spam a bunch of assembler messages when I try to cabal install lambdabot?
06:34:00 <pikhq> elliott: I do it fairly often — I tend to test things with multiple compilers.
06:34:28 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah, but that won't affect the AUTOMATIC finding.
06:34:41 <elliott> pikhq: If you want to do that, you have to override it anyway, say with the CC variable, which should invoke special behaviour anyway.
06:34:50 <zzo38> I looked, in fact the LLVM binary file I downloaded seems to be the correct one, it has "include/llvm-c" and "lib/*.a"
06:35:09 <CakeProphet> elliott: not my paste, but it's the exact same problem: http://hpaste.org/46397/lambdabot_install_failure
06:35:17 <pikhq> Also, you seriously overestimate how long this will actually take to execute.
06:35:29 <elliott> pikhq: I'm not, but caching is a good idea /anyway/.
06:35:51 <elliott> pikhq: Be like tup, consider insane scaling; what if the entirety of Chromium was one big Town project?
06:36:05 <elliott> CakeProphet: Ask #haskell?
06:38:13 <pikhq> Rather, I think you seriously misjudge how much time in ./configure comes from its tests and how much come from how it's often *too much shell to fit in cache*.
06:38:38 <elliott> pikhq: I realise it will be practically instant, I'm just saying that if you can cache, you should, especially because it _will_ help in certain cases.
06:40:31 <pikhq> That would probably be a pain without doing a truly naive form of caching.
06:41:26 <pikhq> Namely, serialising all of the cached solvers to file, thereby replacing the entire cache, and hence needing a lock on the cache.
06:41:53 <elliott> pikhq: Personally, I see the inability to cache as a design flaw...
06:41:57 <elliott> But anyway, my other points are more important.
06:43:09 <pikhq> Also, caching can produce *wrong* builds. Consider the (retarded) case of LLVM (at least on Debian), where when the library gets upgraded, the actual *name of the .so* changes.
06:43:27 <pikhq> Making it so that the cached output of llvm-config is wrong.
06:43:39 <elliott> Yeah yeah yeah, my other points are more important :P
06:49:04 <pikhq> I should also try and think of a better way of handling "Which group should I change the flags of ATM" for the solvers...
06:49:51 <pikhq> At the moment, each solver just looks at the namespace its caller is in.
06:50:12 <pikhq> Which, though functioning with how I've got it set up right now, is not very clean at all.
06:50:24 <elliott> A solver doesn't just set something; it literally returns a function.
06:51:12 <pikhq> Oh, duh, returning a function would help with that.
06:51:49 <elliott> pikhq: Technically, it could return an integer; all "needs foo" has to do is do the solving magic for foo, and then bind foo to whatever the successful solver results in in the caller's environment.
06:52:18 <pikhq> elliott: I'm using the same solver scheme for libraries, though.
06:52:59 <elliott> pikhq: The compiler handles libraries.
06:53:11 <elliott> It can call out to a common library-finder that uses the solver routines if it so desires.
06:53:16 <elliott> pikhq: In fact, this actually helps:
06:53:39 <elliott> pikhq: A library solver that uses the technique "just link with an .so" would return the object (not function or set flags or anything) {link-with libname}.
06:53:48 <elliott> Whereas a pkgconfig one may return {cflags-and-ldflags ... ...}.
06:54:03 <elliott> The library-finder would then pass this back to the C compiler using it, which would translate it into settings of variables in its local namespace.
06:54:35 <pikhq> That is absolutely elegant.
06:55:07 <elliott> Lesson to be learned: MAKING THINGS FUNCTIONAL MAKES THEM BETTER ALWAYS
06:55:20 <elliott> EVEN WHEN THE TASK IS "BE NON-FUNCTIONAL"
06:58:12 <zzo38> But I think I am sure.
06:59:23 <elliott> pikhq: we can all learn from zzo38's wisdo
07:03:09 <F> what are we talking about?
07:05:29 <F> and have for years.
07:05:53 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
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07:06:52 <F> every time I sign on to freenode some punk has it and then has to be humiliated while I ghost and idenfity my nick back.
07:07:43 <oerjan> F: there's an option to make NickServ throw them off automatically, i think
07:08:11 <F> oh? I'll have to check it out.
07:08:24 <F> does anyone here know Go or Perl6?
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07:09:32 <elliott> i know some go, some perl6.
07:09:41 <elliott> I thought all one-letter names were reserved for staffers.
07:14:21 <Gregor> That option exists, yeah, that's why I'm always guestified when I get d/c'd and autorejoin :P
07:19:17 <zzo38> Information from NS INFO doesn't match.
07:21:41 * oerjan finds NS INFO inconclusive on that matter
07:22:27 <oerjan> i mean it doesn't give evidence any way, since the nick isn't currently identified
07:22:39 <elliott> are you actually doubting e
07:25:40 <Gregor> I'll bet if I updated my reverse DNS hostname to libdl.so, people would think there was something broken in Freenode's software ...
07:26:09 <elliott> no people would just point
07:26:14 <elliott> haha this noob doesnt have libc.so
07:26:51 <elliott> ur just not bourgeois enough for us Gregor
07:27:08 <zzo38> Gregor: I think your reverse DNS makes sense the way it is now, it doesn't need to be adjusted.
07:27:33 <elliott> zzo38 is always the best place for technically correct, but useless statements
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07:29:31 <elliott> "Do we really need this with LLVM and GCC?
07:29:31 <elliott> I mean ... if it compiles 2% faster ony MY machine, would I really NEED it?
07:29:31 <elliott> I want scripting languages to become super fast!
07:29:31 <elliott> I don't care about C++ ..."
07:42:59 <elliott> I failed at C++ Sudoku for the first time today :(
07:43:22 <elliott> it is not possible to create a boolean type such that "if (True)" works but "if (True && 9)" doesn't
07:43:33 <elliott> With this despicable failure I am leaving you all to die
07:43:52 <pikhq> Good thing if() doesn't take a boolean.
07:47:34 <CakeProphet> CakeProphet is always the best place for not technically correct, but useful statements.
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07:48:16 <pikhq> pikhq is the best place for statements.
07:49:18 <CakeProphet> My incorrectness is the lifeblood of this channel. It fuels causality through its paradoxes.
07:50:23 <pikhq> Flimble Nordic satisfaction greenly!
07:51:50 <pikhq> PatashuPikachuRe: No idea.
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07:51:57 <pikhq> I just know C++ far better than I should.
07:55:27 <pikhq> Only thing more verbose is good ol' ORK.
07:57:25 <CakeProphet> but Java is high up in the verbosity index.
07:57:29 <pikhq> Or: "There is a mathematician called ORK. ORK's first operand is COBOL. ORK's second operand is 1. ORK is to add."
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08:21:09 <cheater_> http://dis.4chan.org/read/prog/1295544154
08:21:20 <cheater_> More like :: Int32 -> IORef -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a ->
08:21:20 <cheater_> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -
08:21:20 <cheater_> > Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> Maybe a -> IO ()
08:21:21 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `->'
08:28:53 <CakeProphet> cheater_: I like how these guys don't know what they're talking about.
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08:34:54 <CakeProphet> except it's not parallel, but who cares. :P that's not important.
08:34:59 <CakeProphet> it has nothing to do with the algorithm at all.
08:37:41 <Vorpal> doesn't that just sleep then print?
08:38:05 <Vorpal> for each argument in ARGV?
08:38:45 <Vorpal> what thread? I just joined!
08:39:05 <Vorpal> <cheater_> http://dis.4chan.org/read/prog/1295544154
08:39:25 <Vorpal> 4chan? programming? How horrible
08:40:02 <CakeProphet> like any anonymous board, you get all kinds of people. Some people are clueless, some people kind of no what they're talking about
08:40:24 <Vorpal> CakeProphet, in this case it seems to follow the spirit of this channel and of bogosort however
08:40:57 <Vorpal> well to being with at least
08:42:12 <CakeProphet> http://dis.4chan.org/read/prog/1295544154/138
08:42:17 <CakeProphet> I think this is an actual Perl implementation.
08:44:42 <tswett> Actually, I'm pain-free most of the time.
08:49:21 <CakeProphet> does it just have a Haskell interpreter built into it? Because I'd really like to have a command line utility for that.
08:49:32 <CakeProphet> er, typechecker, in this case, not interpreter.
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08:51:41 <Vorpal> you can't do ghci ":t foo" I think
08:51:47 <Vorpal> CakeProphet, surely there must be a better way
08:52:02 <CakeProphet> well, I'm writing a bot and want to give it :t and mueval support.
08:52:12 <Vorpal> check lambdabot source?
08:52:29 <Vorpal> cheater_, I doubt that is what lambdabot does though
08:52:51 <CakeProphet> hmmm, I guess there's no harm in evoking ghci each time.
08:53:08 <cheater_> it's fairly fast on my cluster
08:53:17 <cheater_> don't have ghci locally though
08:53:25 <CakeProphet> but it does give a lot of non-related output
08:53:27 <Vorpal> <CakeProphet> hmmm, I guess there's no harm in evoking ghci each time. <-- for me it takes a second or so to load.
08:53:29 <cheater_> but like, sometimes the lag is more than ghci starting up and dying
08:54:16 <cheater_> damian@dresscoded:~$ echo ":t id" | ghci | grep "^Prelude> " | grep -v "Leaving GHCi."
08:54:42 <CakeProphet> woah what's this grep magic you speak of. @_@
08:54:47 <Vorpal> CakeProphet, I think this is the module in question: http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/Plugin/Type.hs
08:54:59 <cheater_> i am the Red Wizard of the East
08:55:57 <Vorpal> it invokes ghci, though the comments says hugs...
08:56:05 <Gregor> In some number of hours which is difficult to count due to loltimezones, I will be in Paris.
08:56:09 <cheater_> stripComments ('\n':_) = [] -- drop any newwline and rest. *security*
08:57:02 <Vorpal> Gregor, why are you going there?
08:57:21 <cheater_> Gregor, visit the polytechnique
08:57:51 <Gregor> Vorpal: Naw, I'm only there two weeks, just chattin' em up.
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08:58:00 <Gregor> Getting a summer internship abroad = visa hell
08:58:43 <Gregor> cheater_: Is that somewhere you ... visit? :P
08:58:47 <Gregor> And not, y'know, study
08:58:47 <Vorpal> Gregor, ah only for people in US I guess. I could do it since I already live in EU :D
08:59:17 <cheater_> Gregor, nah.. never been to paris myself ^^ but it's definitely a great place to visit
08:59:26 <cheater_> given that so much has happened for mathematics there
09:00:07 <cheater_> Gregor, where do you live normally? i forgot
09:00:12 <Gregor> Vorpal: I don't think the term "abroad" gets to be applied within EU countries anymore.
09:00:19 <Gregor> cheater_: I don't remember anymore :P
09:00:49 <cheater_> CakeProphet, at over 9000x faster
09:01:06 <Gregor> wtf, you're only getting farther X-D
09:01:26 <Gregor> I'm an American ya derpaderp
09:01:49 <cheater_> ok the world does not have a good bsp ok??
09:01:51 <Vorpal> Gregor, sure you don't live in Antarctica?
09:02:06 <cheater_> Vorpal, i heard Gregor lives in Antarctica
09:03:36 <cheater_> stripComments ('\n':_) = [] -- drop any newwline and rest. *security*
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09:56:35 <Gregor> This is either the worst pair of earphones I've ever worn, or merely the most finnicky.
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11:00:30 <CakeProphet> mueval is so much less awesome than lambdabot.
11:16:45 <Vorpal> CakeProphet, what is mueval=
11:19:34 <CakeProphet> it's a standalone version of what lambdabot uses to evaluate Haskell code, but it's nowhere near as awesome.
11:19:51 <CakeProphet> because it doesn't have as many modules that it allows.
11:22:43 <ais523> <Chromium changelog> - Hardware accelerated 3D CSS
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11:35:02 <CakeProphet> return join ('\n', grep {defined} (split /\n/, shift)[(0..shift)-1])
11:38:21 <ais523> that is pretty readable
11:38:36 <ais523> I wrote some Perl code that parsed VHDL using regexes last night, that was really unreadable
11:38:55 <ais523> (it's designed to parse only the output of a specific program, rather than VHDL in general, so regexing it isn't /too/ bad, and I was in a hurry)
11:39:14 <ais523> wait, which order are those shifts evaluated in?
11:39:24 <ais523> I don't think I've ever written shift twice in the same expression when it mattered
11:39:31 <ais523> Patashu: I'm just quoting the changelog
11:39:34 <ais523> I have no more context than you do
11:40:10 <ais523> but I quoted it because it seemed absurd
11:40:23 <ais523> what they might mean is that they're using the GPU in order to do CSS layout, which is plausible
11:40:27 <ais523> and the 3D got in there by mistake
11:43:17 <ais523> or perhaps CSS really does do 3D nowadays
11:43:24 <CakeProphet> ais523: interestingly enough, the index is evaluated first.
11:43:57 <ais523> CakeProphet: that's not massively surprising given the way split is optimised
11:44:28 <ais523> if you try to take the fifth element of a split, for instance, it stops splitting at five results
11:44:43 <CakeProphet> yeah it makes sense to evaluate the indices first.
11:45:36 <ais523> so what that function does, is returns up to the first n lines of a given string?
11:45:50 <ais523> yep, that's relatively readable, apart from the argument order thing
11:46:28 <CakeProphet> to get rid of empty lines... and... lines with only 0, because that's how Perl rolls. :P
11:46:35 <ais523> so now it returns up to the first n lines of a given string, except empty lines and lines containing just a zero
11:46:52 <ais523> you could use grep{/./} if you just wanted to get rid of empty lines
11:47:07 <ais523> in fact, I don't even think you need the braces if you have a regex as argument
11:47:11 <ais523> although arguably they're good style
11:47:33 <CakeProphet> I would say they are arguably irrelevant to good style in Perl. :D
11:47:54 <ais523> they aren't, I've been in some pretty heavily style-guidelined Perl projects
11:48:32 <CakeProphet> though I'd keep the braces if I change, simply because I don't want to add a comma and possibly parens if it becomes ambiguous at that point.
11:49:35 <CakeProphet> it would be interesting if join could take a regex argument...
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11:50:57 <ais523> it'd be great if you could do join /\1\2/, split /-(.)-(.)-/ $string;
11:51:05 <ais523> that's potentially meaningful, at least
11:51:16 <ais523> although I'm not sure it's useful, and would also change the semantics of enclosing groups in a split
11:51:36 <CakeProphet> I think you'd have to use $1 and $2 instead of \
11:51:55 <CakeProphet> it would just have to be some weird special case.
11:52:10 <ais523> you're right, it should be $1 and $2 per Perl conventions for replacements
11:52:27 <ais523> but obviously it's a ridiculous weird special case
11:52:46 <CakeProphet> you can do that on the last match possibly.
11:52:52 <ais523> nowadays, I mostly use NEU or ARC when playing online
11:52:56 <ais523> umm, sorry, wrong channel
11:53:43 <cheater_> ais523, http://dis.4chan.org/read/prog/1295544154 xD
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11:53:58 <ais523> cheater_: I'm not following links to 4chan no matter how relevant they are
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11:54:22 <cheater_> someone came up with sorting this way: take each number on the list and launch a thread that sleeps for this many seconds.
11:54:55 <ais523> that seems like a variant on one of the established techniques
11:55:14 <cheater_> that WAS actually mentioned there
11:55:17 <CakeProphet> it's almost subject to all kinds of scheduling problems. :P
11:55:35 <ais523> among other things, 4chan links go invalid really quickly
11:55:38 <cheater_> there was even an ascii art of a flaccid penis
11:55:45 <cheater_> ais523, this one's on the bbs, it's archived
12:03:38 <CakeProphet> < ksf> the actual ingenuity of sleepsort is realising that a complexity theorist's mind will asplode while trying to decide whether sleep(n) is O(1) or O(n).
12:03:50 <CakeProphet> I couldn't find anyone else talking about sleepsort, but there it was randomly.
12:04:00 <ais523> CakeProphet: O(n), obviously
12:04:07 <ais523> it's pretty much literally O(n)
12:06:02 <ais523> ah, the link's been posted to proggit
12:06:07 <ais523> and lots of people read that
12:06:13 <ais523> so it's probably going to spread through IRC based on that
12:07:00 <CakeProphet> well if you divide the numbers first before you sort you can cut down on the computation time
12:07:18 <CakeProphet> at the same time you're increasing the likelihood of a scheduling misshap
12:17:38 <Gregor> Google is trying very hard to find all the most annoying ways to give you free wifi.
12:18:48 <ais523> CakeProphet: reddit points out that it's O(n log n), because the sorting is done by the scheduler
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13:04:04 <Vorpal> <Gregor> Google is trying very hard to find all the most annoying ways to give you free wifi. <-- how so?
13:04:54 <lambdabot> It could refer to either `L.e', defined at <local...
13:05:29 <Patashu> where's my lambert w function :(
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13:20:53 <lambdabot> It could refer to either `L.e', defined at <local>:17:0
13:20:54 <lambdabot> or `SimpleReflect.e', imported from SimpleReflect at State/L.hs:74:0-32
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13:22:40 <dell> i am developing
13:22:47 <dell> a python to brainfuck converter
13:22:47 <CakeProphet> why on earth does mueval give me "Exception: not a number" when I try to eval ['a'..'z']
13:23:22 <dell> what do you think....i will continue only if someone already hasn't done it
13:23:53 <Lymia> Python is the last language you want to try that with.
13:24:14 <dell> ok..then i will continue...its gonna be hell of a thing but it will be open source and written in python
13:24:22 <Vorpal> CakeProphet, that is trivial. There is a C->JavaScript compiler, so just write a JS->BF compiler then embed cpython compiled to js + your python script in that
13:24:23 <dell> i will post about it more here
13:24:41 <Lymia> I'll applaud you if you manage to compile something as simple as that.
13:24:58 <dell> it will not support all the python features...the first version will be pretty simple
13:25:06 <Vorpal> Lymia, what about using cython + LLVM + custom LLVM->BF backend
13:25:32 <CakeProphet> lol I was like "...you want me to put an infinite number of funcs between each character?"
13:25:34 <Lymia> Vorpal, that's downright insane.
13:25:48 <Vorpal> Lymia, ais's half-complete bf gcc backend
13:25:55 <Vorpal> and use that with cython
13:26:13 <Lymia> Vorpal, I know it's possible.
13:26:23 <Lymia> But it's going to be hard unless done right.
13:26:31 <Lymia> This guy gives me a certain vibe.
13:26:43 <dell> so i will create a repository on git and will let ya people know more about it
13:26:59 <Vorpal> Lymia, yeah I see what you mean... "on git"
13:27:21 <dell> just a little lazy
13:29:27 <Vorpal> Lymia, anyway, llvm->bf would be interesting
13:30:11 <Lymia> Vorpal, sounds like it might be a little hard, but doable.
13:30:17 <Lymia> Do we have any higher level languages compiling to BF?
13:30:41 <Lymia> That would be a large part of the problem already solved.
13:31:09 <Vorpal> a few, there is BASIC->BF iirc, that was used for lostking.b, but I never seen the actual compiler in question
13:31:22 <Vorpal> quite a bit of dead code in there
13:32:09 <Lymia> Vorpal, how can you compile goto?
13:32:13 <Vorpal> Lymia, and the gcc backend kind of works for trivial examples, but produced so huge results it is not practically usable without a special cased interpreter
13:32:24 <Vorpal> Lymia, a while loop with switches inside?
13:32:36 <Lymia> Vorpal, sounds possible.
13:32:45 <Vorpal> Lymia, and I don't know the details of the basic->bf one
13:32:54 <Vorpal> as I said, I never seen it
13:33:18 <Lymia> Brainfuck by default uses 0-255 range, right?
13:33:33 <Vorpal> that is the most common way
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13:34:04 <Lymia> I'm thinking there could be a basic intermediate language which (unsafely) compiles to Brainfuck code.
13:34:30 <Vorpal> iirc gcc-bf used a bf assembler thingy
13:34:40 <Lymia> A simple extension that has more than one tape, switchable with some command, and turns 8-bit brainfuck to 32-bit brainfuck.
13:34:49 <Vorpal> with opcodes like "mul8 offsetA,offsetB
13:35:01 <Lymia> Vorpal, sounds "fun"
13:35:47 <Vorpal> Lymia, iirc it used a pattern on the data like 5 cells: marker,memory,memory,memory,scratch,scratch
13:35:53 <Vorpal> or something like that
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13:39:52 <Lymia> How could you design an esolang API that supports as many different esolangs as possible.
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13:46:34 <Lymia> ^ That guy tried to randomly flirt with me
13:46:48 <Lymia> May I suggest making sure he doesn't come back?
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14:14:20 <Lymia> Guess that's why +g exists
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14:16:28 <quintopia> but then i once tried messaging you and you freaked out. And I had no intention of flirting. So I can't help but give him the benefit of a doubt
14:21:44 <Lymia> It's quite unambiguous when they open the message with "Hey baby"
14:23:14 <quintopia> an inauspicious start, i must agree
14:24:14 <Lymia> Plus, 99% of the people I don't know messaging me, yeah.
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14:52:24 <quintopia> i gather you are female. i was not aware of this. must be nice to not be a douchebag.
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14:59:42 <Lymia> quintopia, what is that supposed to mean?
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15:28:21 <DocHerrings> Almost have a working interpreter for eodermdrom, in case anyone cares.
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17:19:03 <quintopia> Lymia: it means that all guys are douchebags
17:19:34 <Lymia> quintopia, that's not true at all.
17:19:54 <Lymia> Though it is quite true that society seems to expect, and to some degree enforce that.......
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17:20:44 <quintopia> as a female in this society, you should behave as if it were true. guilty until proven innocent as it were.
17:24:19 <Lymia> It's more fun to assume the other way.
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17:30:33 <Lymia> Life isn't fun if you go around assuming all X are Y.
17:36:23 <quintopia> but i do believe in this case that at least 75% of X are Y due to previously mentioned societal pressure, therefore the fun you are referring to can only be of the "omg, i didn't expect you to be a douchebag too, you asshole!" type.
17:36:33 <Lymia> quintopia, on that note, nobody "should" X because they're female, or male, or anything.
17:37:00 <Lymia> Please don't say things like that. It makes you look like an asshole yourself.
17:37:17 <quintopia> but i am. i am a guy, and all guys are douchebags
17:37:48 <Lymia> Disproof by example is fun, eh?
17:38:10 <quintopia> and i agree that a perfect society wouldn't have the need for any assumptions along gender, racial, or economical lines
17:38:11 <Sgeo> I try not to be. Although I guess sometimes I have been. I don't try to be actively malicious though.
17:38:26 <Lymia> I don't believe most people are outright hateful or malicious.
17:39:11 <quintopia> you don't have to be malicious to be a douchebag
17:39:22 <quintopia> indeed, most douchebaggery is not malicious in origin
17:39:30 <quintopia> it's just unthinking socialization
17:39:52 <Sgeo> That's not.. really the kind of douchebaggery I've done, I think
17:39:55 <Lymia> quintopia, and that's something you can talk to people about and expect success at.
17:40:50 <quintopia> which is why it's useful also for guys in this society to internalize "all guys are douchebags, even me"
17:41:04 <quintopia> it makes it a lot easier to recognize that tendency and pressure
17:41:22 <Lymia> quintopia, how about this.
17:42:45 <Lymia> Do we have to stereotype people? Like it or not, if you keep saying that, you're not helping the problem, right?
17:43:50 <olsner> why all the serious discussion? it's not befitting of #esoteric
17:44:05 <quintopia> Is it better to consciously or subconsciously apply a stereotype? The media, whether you like it or not, encourages the latter. The only way to fight it is to label it and bring it right out in the open.
17:44:23 <quintopia> sorry olsner. nothing else was going on...
17:44:55 <Lymia> quintopia, neither.
17:45:40 <quintopia> that's not an option at the moment. it's a goal for the future
17:46:00 <Lymia> It's best to not apply a stereotype to people or yourself at all.
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17:47:37 <quintopia> actually, it's impossible to apply a negative stereotype to yourself and still remain sane. the cognitive dissonance is too strong. trying and failing to do so gives the insight one needs to see that stereotypes are never completely accurate when applied to individuals.
17:49:05 <Lymia> I've seen more than a few people use those stereotypes as excuses for their behavior.
17:51:42 <quintopia> You mean they completely let themselves off the hook? They have no desire to improve?
17:53:02 <Lymia> See: "Boys will be boys" and any variations on that.
17:54:08 <quintopia> i've only ever seen that used by someone forgiving someone else for something
17:55:11 <Lymia> What do we stand to gain from stereotyping others?
17:55:24 <Lymia> One'd think that you'd correct negative behavior in yourself by listening to others when they call you out on it.
17:56:55 <cheater_> or maybe the world isn't a hugbox
17:57:20 <cheater_> and what you said is such an overt simplification of the human psyche that there's no way to begin describing how disconnected from reality it is
17:57:26 <quintopia> when the stereotype reflects a set of behaviors that actually do occur in the real world, a stereotype is a simple rule whereby one can protect oneself
17:58:26 <Lymia> cheater_, to whom exactly are you directing that?
17:58:56 <Lymia> If you want to be a better person, why don't you take it into consideration when somebody calls you out on something?
17:59:45 <Lymia> What are you referring to then?
18:00:40 <cheater_> your reasoning and acting based upon your own simplification of reality whereby you unknowingly give yourself a kick in the ass.
18:01:02 <quintopia> that's kind of my point though. everyone knows that it's bad to be a douchebag. if someone calls you a douchebag, how can you just say "yeah, i am, aren't i? that's just who i am. deal with it." when everything you hear is "no one likes to hang around douchebags"?
18:01:51 <cheater_> i've got no problems saying that if the person calling me out has no moral ground to call me out.
18:02:20 <Lymia> cheater_, so far you havn't made any concrete arguments other than "you're wrong"
18:02:27 <Lymia> It'd be more interesting if you did that.
18:02:53 <cheater_> i haven't, have i? that's just the way it is.
18:04:49 <cheater_> (or maybe i have, you just asserted otherwise for sake of argument)
18:05:29 <quintopia> cheater_: but would you, in saying that, actually believe it to be the truth? or would you just be saying it as a way to piss off someone you don't respect?
18:05:52 <cheater_> quintopia: i don't go out of my way to anger people.
18:06:07 <quintopia> that's not really answering the question
18:06:41 <quintopia> would you ever say "yes, i am a douchebag," accept that as truth, then do nothing about it?
18:06:42 <cheater_> i would normally not act upon an impulse to annoy someone because it is not there.
18:07:04 <cheater_> you can say that and accept it as someone's truth without accepting it as your own truth.
18:07:25 <cheater_> the world isn't a maths book, people have different opinions, you know?
18:08:12 <cheater_> if someone thinks i'm a douchebag because he e.g. thinks i should accomodate him in ways i am not morally required to and i don't, then he's free to have this opinion
18:08:29 <quintopia> Lymia: That's what's happening with your people excusing themselves with stereotypes. They aren't accepting the stereotypes as truth about themselves.
18:08:35 <cheater_> "hey, give me ten dollars" "no" "you're a douchebag" "i am, aren't i?"
18:09:58 <cheater_> the last sentence is not an attempt at annoying someone, it's just a dismissive required to cleanse your psyche of someone's judgement that you find unjust.
18:11:04 <quintopia> either way, you're not accepting and believing and internalizing that you are a douchebag
18:11:35 <cheater_> if i went silent i probably would, though
18:11:47 <quintopia> otherwise, you'd apologize and seek to change your ways, so as not to be rejected by society
18:11:49 <Lymia> cheater_, "listen to" means to take another's objection into consideration.
18:11:50 <cheater_> that's the way our psychology works
18:12:03 <cheater_> yeah, i took his objection into consideration
18:12:10 <cheater_> and i considered it to be worth a pile of dog shit
18:12:35 <cheater_> most people don't have anything interesting to say, that's a fact of life
18:16:51 <quintopia> now that one i can't agree with it
18:17:23 <quintopia> i'd rather say people are societally inhibited from saying the truly interesting things
18:18:20 <quintopia> peoplke have stories and people know things they can't talk about
18:18:46 <quintopia> it takes a long time to gain the confidence to hear the interesting things
18:19:43 <cheater_> you are setting the bar very low
18:19:46 <Lymia> I think it could be said that it's an issue of perceived cause and effect. Is it because only really befriend people who have interesting things to say, or is it that they say those things because you've befriended them.
18:20:34 <Lymia> I personally think it's the latter-- I do believe it's usually considered creepy when people sprout off in detail about their life to a stranger.
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18:22:08 <Sgeo> Lymia, so I'm creepy?
18:22:57 <monqy> have you ever listened to yourself talk about yourself
18:23:01 <monqy> tylenol and friends
18:25:11 <Lymia> quintopia, on the issue of stereotypes, after some thought, I think that the problem isn't just that the stereotypes exist. It's that part of the stereotype is that people are that way naturally, and it's only going to hurt you to try to change, etc.
18:26:41 <zzo38> Do you think units 1/4736286.72 inch are enough accuracy for all printers and more?
18:27:31 <Lymia> zzo38, what's standard?
18:27:46 <zzo38> Lymia: Standard what?
18:27:57 <Lymia> DPI/accuracy/whatever.
18:28:08 <Lymia> Actually, on that note, is that per square inch?
18:28:25 <zzo38> I don't know. Some printers have 600 DPI, but some are more resolution than that.
18:28:44 <Lymia> I'm quite sure that resolution implies 22432411894048.3584 DPI, unless it's per square inch.
18:29:17 <zzo38> Lymia: That is not square inch. What I mean is 1/4736286.72 inch is the smallest unit that can be represented and used in calculations, even if no printer can do this resolution.
18:30:48 <Lymia> Then it's more than enough accuracy.
18:32:19 <zzo38> It is the units used in TeX, which is an old program. FreeType does not support this much accuracy as far as I know!
18:33:19 <zzo38> (And for TeXnicard, a new program, which uses the same units)
18:33:56 <zzo38> quintopia: The reason for that number is there is 72.27 points in one inch, and 65536 scaled points in one point (that is the accuracy of the fractional calculations), now it is less strange isn't it?
18:37:49 <zzo38> But this way it makes sense, At least to me it make sense
18:38:12 <quintopia> but why are there 72.27 points in one inch?
18:39:34 <Lymia> I'm thinking that he means that there are 72.27 points in a square inch.
18:39:41 <zzo38> That is how traditional typesetting was designed; there must be some reason having to do with some things that I do not know about, but were important in old typesetting
18:39:46 <Lymia> quintopia, it's likely a unit based on the meter or something. Dunno.
18:39:50 <zzo38> Lymia: No, nothing to do with square inches
18:40:13 <Lymia> zzo38, then that implies a resolution that cannot be stored in memory sanely.
18:41:56 <zzo38> Actually it works very well. Especially since no printers have a resolution that much!
18:42:59 <quintopia> Lymia: in other words, no printer is every asked to print a different random bit at every single point
18:43:52 <quintopia> (although 5223 bits per square inch isn't so impossible)
18:44:23 <Lymia> Yeah, if 72.27 points is how it's scaled, sure.
18:44:32 <Lymia> But why is there such a strange limit.
18:44:52 <olsner> maybe you're just using the wrong inch
18:46:12 <zzo38> The limit is not seem strange to me.
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19:31:54 <Sgeo> What can I do with a 5 or 6 year old laptop?
19:32:09 <Sgeo> Someone on Facebook wants to get rid of hers, meaning I could have it for free
19:32:16 <Sgeo> (It doesn't have a hard drive)
19:32:53 <zzo38> Install a hard drive and install DOS
19:33:06 <zzo38> (Or learn to invent your own operating system)
19:53:50 <Vorpal> wtf at this config file, it is like a mix of CPP and XML!
19:54:48 <Vorpal> olsner, in fact it isn't either, but the result is like that
19:55:22 <quintopia> xcppml is something the world has long needed
19:56:19 <Vorpal> quintopia, no I'm depressed. Because I have to figure out this config file, which also uses mixed indention style...
19:58:21 <Vorpal> aargh swap trashing now
19:58:58 <quintopia> because you don't have enough memory to do that
19:59:09 <Vorpal> thing is, I didn't do anything
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19:59:25 <quintopia> clearly you need more memory to do nothing
19:59:30 <quintopia> start doing something and it will stop
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20:01:52 <Vorpal> The names of the joysticks are:
20:01:52 <Vorpal> ThinkPad HDAPS joystick emulation
20:01:52 <Vorpal> axes: 2 buttons: 0 hats: 0
20:01:52 <Vorpal> ThinkPad HDAPS accelerometer data
20:01:52 <Vorpal> axes: 2 buttons: 0 hats: 0
20:01:53 <Vorpal> Saitek Saitek X52 Pro Flight Control System
20:01:55 <Vorpal> axes: 11 buttons: 39 hats: 0
20:02:01 <Vorpal> that is why it fucks up
20:02:13 <Vorpal> it is trying to use the accelerometer as my joystick
20:02:23 <Vorpal> now how to avoid it...
20:02:31 <olsner> no, the problem is that you have no hats
20:03:38 <quintopia> it makes sense. i've not heard of gregor complaining about such a problem
20:03:47 <quintopia> then again, he probably has no joysticks
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20:31:40 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 4 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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20:48:33 <Phantom_Hoover> I am really disappointed that I read that Homestuck update on a school computer through a proxy without Flash.
20:50:06 <olsner> Sgeo: any news from FIS?
20:50:37 <Sgeo> Presumed to be the BANCstar people
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21:22:56 <quintopia> can someone tell me why gdocs sucks so much?
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21:47:02 <zzo38> Can a LLVM program work with gdb?
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21:57:06 <zzo38> Canucks always loses as far as I know.
21:57:25 <zzo38> That is what someone told me.
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22:30:22 <pikhq_> It is 16:30, and I am just now getting caffeine.
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22:50:40 <CakeProphet> my country is too busy worrying about the dicks of politicians to mention riots in Canada much.
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22:52:20 <pikhq> Yeah, we're more phallus-obsessed than Freud ever was.
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