< 1308355219 76381 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-201-126.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Good design is still hard. :P < 1308355315 152286 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-197-227.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1308355476 594380 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-201-126.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1308355599 180111 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-240-158.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1308355776 566506 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-197-227.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1308356525 941567 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION → sleep < 1308356527 491569 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PART #esoteric :"Leaving" < 1308356529 504802 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1308357365 853496 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-240-158.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there any sane way to test for ISO C89? < 1308357372 627454 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1308357392 653324 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-240-158.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Feh, I suppose #if __STDC__ will do well enough. < 1308357541 46437 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-43500f4b.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Going to start reading the Less Wrong Quantum Mechanics sequence < 1308357611 615704 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you die from an overdo- < 1308357615 457560 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what that wasn't even a tylenol line < 1308357665 227273 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-43500f4b.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :All my Tylenol lines are now in a msg to myself, and I'll /nick to Sgeo first. ais523 being bothered by it bothered me. < 1308357754 651525 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what you're saying is... ais523 has the power to control your messages to the channel? < 1308358234 196053 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1308359198 30860 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly QUIT :Quit: swatted to death < 1308360263 962741 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-43500f4b.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://lesswrong.com/lw/or/joy_in_the_merely_real/iuj?context=1#iuj I'm not sure which is stupider, the comment or the reply < 1308361790 889133 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Play chess against an opponent. You are white. Assign a permanent to each opponents piece, then opponent assigns a permanent to each of your pieces. Each piece must have a different permanent assigned to it. When a piece is captured, associated permanent is discarded. At end of chess game, if it ended in checkmate, permanent assigned to losers king is discarded. < 1308361936 893857 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1308362058 591327 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can test for both __STDC__ and __STDC_VERSION__ if you want C89. < 1308362076 712532 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-240-158.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1308362087 551327 :Patashu!Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :sgeo: I love the reply < 1308362168 832346 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if you want to avoid GNU89 then you can test for that too in some way. < 1308362197 534926 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Fail. __STDC_VERSION__ was first added in C90. < 1308362218 479356 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: You can compare the value of __STDC_VERSION__ < 1308362229 964160 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :__STDC_VERSION__ does not exist in C89. < 1308362234 254019 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, no you can't. < 1308362237 726944 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then test it with #ifdef < 1308362249 248562 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Oh, wait, yes you can. The preprocessor treats undefined macros as "0". < 1308362294 559110 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, testing for __STDC_VERSION__ won't help much when what you want is more of "at least C89" rather than "is precisely C89". :P < 1308362316 803363 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, I thought you wanted to test for "is precisely C89". < 1308362358 636987 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least as far as I understand, C99's additions are all undefined behavior in C89, so if you actually get caught by those then you're just doing things wrong. < 1308362389 151347 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I have no desire to help people do things wrong. < 1308362395 847912 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, there are some new reserved words, I think. < 1308362473 248993 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, sure enough, C99 is not a strict superset of C89. :/ < 1308362572 761377 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I should probably make a "c89" test which makes sure that what you have is precisely C89 (or C90, as its only real distinction *is* __STDC_VERSION__), and a "c" test which just tests for __STDC__. (I shall pretend K&R C does not exist) < 1308362644 25520 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps first I should get town to actually generate Tupfiles again, though. :P < 1308362876 857904 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1308363047 758105 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. That can help. < 1308363122 374320 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i51.tinypic.com/350uuc5.png < 1308363124 720008 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Critical success. < 1308363136 968724 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And perhaps also "gnu89" to use the "gnu89" version (Clang also supports "gnu89" mode). < 1308363220 257735 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymia: What is that, anyways? What does the stuff on the screen means? < 1308363266 888872 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : Also, I wonder why Sweden isn't on the Euro; it's treaty-bound to. < 1308363323 702588 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :afaiu they are using technicalities to delay it until they actually want to, and no one wants to push them too hard? < 1308363894 567897 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some of the GNU extensions that Clang does not support are ones that I don't think they even ought to have put in gcc anyways; they like to make GNU software too large in my opinion < 1308363927 809373 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: try -fheinous-gnu-extensions < 1308364173 808552 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I was asking for "why" not "how". < 1308364204 982293 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: "How" is pretty obvious; "exploit loopholes and watch as the EU doesn't care enough to call them on it". < 1308364220 986583 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: What is that? < 1308364241 299047 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: an excellent clang flag < 1308364253 522932 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1308364255 863638 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1308364299 473932 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: What does it do? < 1308364468 462155 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: exactly what it says on the tin < 1308364484 3166 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I think for GNU extensions I'll probably just have checks for individual GCC extensions. < 1308364505 935551 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: OK, do that, if it is how you want to do that. < 1308364576 742444 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1308364647 352373 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as it's entirely feasible to use each and every GCC extension from -std=c89 or -std=c99) < 1308364809 321713 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although perhaps it might be useful to have a macro called "gnu89" which tests for all the GNU extensions except the ones that are intentionally not supported in Clang. < 1308364936 688013 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And "gnu99" for the similar thing) < 1308365314 720105 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Did you finish reimplementing MY REFORM yet? :p < 1308365320 738048 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: No. < 1308365325 352352 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :WORK FASTER < 1308365341 890939 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I've been doing much more thinking about it than actual doing. < 1308365356 265960 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :leave the thinking to me < 1308365530 490628 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :__attribute__ is such a misfeature. < 1308365576 803346 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, all of GNU C's extensions are misfeatures, because they make it so damned hard to use portably. < 1308365601 284138 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They don't have preprocessor defines for each feature, it's all on __GNUC__. < 1308365659 871655 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you can't do, say, #if __has_attribute((foo)). < 1308365730 963798 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. If it ignores unknown attributes, then if they were sane they could just make if #ifdef __attribute__... < 1308365782 315079 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But *no*. If any other compiler wants to actually support a single GNU C extension, they need to define __GNUC__ to make code actually use it. < 1308365803 132356 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if GCC removes an extension, code breaks. < 1308365829 433595 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So. Fucking. Stupid. < 1308365889 878211 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, clang has the right idea. They have a preprocessor check for each and every one of their extensions. < 1308365917 877212 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :does clang even have clang-specific extensions < 1308365935 475481 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1308365943 138744 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :are they any good < 1308365954 224670 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I think it's clang or OSX GCC extensions. < 1308365961 132829 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: How do you feel about anonymous functions? < 1308365965 885964 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 < 1308366009 591671 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, there's also C++ function overloading in C; you need to use __attribute__((overloadable)) for it to work. < 1308366089 314168 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and some extra builtins. < 1308366175 585479 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you can *actually test for these things* in clang. < 1308366254 166799 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :__has_builtin, __has_feature, __has_extension, and __has_attribute. GCC really, really, really needs them. < 1308366260 245193 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I need a time machine to make it happen. < 1308366464 573406 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> runSym $ product [x,y,z] < 1308366464 805405 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :((1 * x) * y) * z < 1308366474 219342 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> runSym $ product (map succ [x,y,z]) < 1308366474 456535 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :((1 * succ (x)) * succ (y)) * succ (z) < 1308366497 799974 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately it's not all smiles and happiness < 1308366499 198908 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> runSym $ concat (map show [x,y,z]) < 1308366501 798903 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :show (x) < 1308366518 700120 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what happened there < 1308366573 278560 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: the whole system is based on exceptions < 1308366574 209639 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :because < 1308366587 409099 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> runSym $ product [x,y,z] == x+y < 1308366587 588650 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :((1 * x) * y) * z == x + y < 1308366589 823251 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(==) returns Bool < 1308366594 91637 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can't do symbolic stuff with it, usually < 1308366606 352525 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so instead, everything takes two arguments, runs them and catches special SymExceptions < 1308366612 628600 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which it then extracts the value out of < 1308366617 183128 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :computes the symbolic expression result < 1308366618 610909 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and throws that < 1308366628 293815 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is, functions which look at these arguments... trigger an exception < 1308366672 61015 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what a lovely hack < 1308366695 124410 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: SINCERE OR NOT: a monqy special < 1308366826 888340 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5ZMDzh0EXQ < 1308366828 460836 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION WTFs < 1308366904 274645 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice truck there < 1308366937 302293 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.icfpcontest.org/2011/06/task-description-contest-starts-now.html this game looks fun < 1308367007 885774 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a foot-shooting list tell me of entries I don't have (they can be esoteric programming or not) < 1308367053 617475 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :two shoot urself in the foot... become a gansgata < 1308367157 21649 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: do you want to sign up to the zepto report, it is an irc-based reports of the most and most un- zepto of the land < 1308367160 946282 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :99 dollars per square mile < 1308367193 140401 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what land is this < 1308367213 326148 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: the inter - net land < 1308367366 801655 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what's a square mile < 1308367383 647189 :Kustas!~xix@228.224.196.88.dyn.estpak.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1308367402 867360 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: u dont need two know... < 1308367414 317751 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :clA$$IFIED INFORMATION < 1308367419 243541 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :INFORMA$ION < 1308367439 726045 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :informasion < 1308367496 799263 :Kustas!~xix@228.224.196.88.dyn.estpak.ee PART :#esoteric < 1308367498 836950 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :informinvasion < 1308367532 417361 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :goodbye kustas < 1308367580 436252 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :rip kustas < 1308367582 87835 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :warrior of zepto < 1308367718 877310 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 JOIN :#esoteric < 1308367719 236447 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1308368145 262023 :PatashuPikachuRe!Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1308368177 971961 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :PatashuPikachuRe: omg < 1308368178 550873 :augur!~augur@208.58.6.161 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1308368179 821317 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ur a pokemons < 1308368249 740860 :Patashu!Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1308368323 801601 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :God *damn*. < 1308368331 890510 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: wat < 1308368350 973289 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :North Korea has... Defeated Hitler, in terms of awful concentration camps. < 1308368359 618199 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i liked it before the comma < 1308368376 731158 :PatashuPikachuRe!Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au NICK :Patashu < 1308368378 735225 :Patashu!Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :this keeps happening < 1308368388 187886 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: i told you about pokemen < 1308368389 823097 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc. < 1308368429 211218 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :imapokemons < 1308368435 856531 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :not one but many < 1308368448 160072 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They have camps where generations are punished. By which I mean "you will be here your whole life. Your children will be born here and die here. Their children will be born here and die here. And so on." < 1308368514 569875 :Patashu!Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :for this game: http://www.icfpcontest.org/2011/06/task-description-contest-starts-now.html what would an example strategy look like? < 1308368517 888321 :Patashu!Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never done lambda stuff before < 1308368564 34812 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :characterising the problem of playing the game as "lambda stuff" seems to imply to me a gap in experience too large to articulate the answer... < 1308368569 426914 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not that I know what a decent strategy would be myself) < 1308368575 519347 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'd have to actually try it to know that :P) < 1308368580 291714 :Patashu!Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1308368600 569163 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you should verse yourself up in lambda stuff first < 1308368613 952812 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't believe there are programmers who don't know the lambda calculus :( < 1308368623 340488 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::'( < 1308368653 350723 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a foot-shooting list of "HOW TO SHOOT YOURSELF FOOT BY PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES". < 1308368675 538498 :Patashu!Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can see that if you're setting up a huge fuck-the-opponent-over function in a slot and your opponent gets it to 0 vitality then zombifies it < 1308368679 791384 :Patashu!Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'll activate and do the opposite < 1308368859 717476 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: such lists are _old_ < 1308368876 33214 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: nss < 1308368884 673358 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1308368909 995443 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: no shit sherlock < 1308368918 39124 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :?hoogle cata < 1308368918 610787 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :No results found < 1308368976 276760 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :where's the catas at < 1308369005 45641 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/recursion-schemes/0.5.0.1/doc/html/Data-Functor-Foldable.html here dey are < 1308369010 346724 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :look behind the zygohistomorphic prepromorphisms < 1308369070 834954 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I know such lists are old but I have some new one too and want to add some new things if you have ideas. This can include new entries for programming languages that are already on there, entries for programming languages that are not on there, or entries for programming languages that did not exist at that time. It can be esoteric programming and/or not. < 1308369144 536672 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell: your program appears to prevent you from shooting yourself in the foot, until it suddenly runs unexpectedly out of memory < 1308369152 421257 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, it's cataNat :: NatAlgebra a -> Nat -> a, right? < 1308369158 267138 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :where type NatAlgebra a = (a, a -> a) < 1308369170 254215 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks. That is one now I added it < 1308369192 831557 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1308369279 997379 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :class Catamorphism a alg | a -> alg where < 1308369280 568846 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric : type Cata alg a < 1308369282 254970 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: spot the mistake < 1308369307 935839 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1308369310 890728 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea < 1308369324 310838 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hint: there are no typekinds < 1308369335 858589 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you supply the (type-level) _values_ < 1308369346 477988 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so for any input number, there is only one valid (a, a -> a) pair < 1308369352 638418 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :making this totally meaningless < 1308369365 880640 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you say so < 1308369372 317323 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ARE YOU DOUBTING ME < 1308369394 181356 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, i am just not even remembering what a catamorphism is, much less in the type system < 1308369405 881445 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :generalised fold / induction / recursion scheme < 1308369423 20807 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :IF YOU SAY SO < 1308369442 382947 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :type NatAlg a = (a, a -> a); cataNat (x,f) Z = x; cataNat alg (S n) = f (cataNat alg n) < 1308369490 692518 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.34 JOIN :#esoteric < 1308369496 666300 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :missing for f < 1308369501 164775 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*binding < 1308369551 343780 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yeah yeah < 1308369553 475516 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :alg@(x,f) < 1308369563 732237 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders why in the world Firefox sometimes causes the system to swap like crazy with 0 swap space used. < 1308369577 903223 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should note that yes, it's actually swapping. < 1308369591 826122 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kswapd is shown to be working like crazy in iotop. < 1308369601 743619 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's because Firefox sucks TRUE STORIES BY REAL PEOPLE < 1308369614 914628 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's swapping into your hidden NSA disk < 1308369616 509522 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :True, but not a good explanation. < 1308369686 470050 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the disk contains a satellite link to ECHELON < 1308369701 984132 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :using top secret neutrino transmission < 1308370069 721374 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan im starting to think that maybe you cant embed everything in a nice type system library < 1308370074 767468 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CRY................. < 1308370086 575307 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly I hate how type families arent first class :( < 1308370275 537354 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Nested type family application < 1308370275 769988 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric : in the type family application: Succ :$ ((Add :$ m) :$ n) < 1308370275 949273 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric : (Use -XUndecidableInstances to permit this) < 1308370277 678546 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan im creying < 1308370343 375610 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :what you cannot nest them? < 1308370348 99995 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently < 1308370353 123714 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the type family rules are some strict bullshit mon < 1308370365 526597 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what happens if you use -XUndecidableInstances < 1308370373 151544 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: then..................a baby cries.... < 1308370377 590482 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that baby grows up to be... jesus < 1308370380 206287 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and dies on the... cross < 1308370405 728830 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no < 1308370512 648207 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Later < 1308370582 681453 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Map; data Map' f < 1308370582 900126 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :type instance Map :$ f = Map' f < 1308370582 900301 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :type instance Map' f :$ Nil = Nil < 1308370584 344127 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :type instance Map' f :$ x :@ xs = (f :$ x) :@ (Map' f :$ xs) < 1308370671 951172 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: yally is invading agora and trying to stop you preventing such evil < 1308370869 810247 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-43500f4b.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.O < 1308370952 955984 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-43500f4b.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That does not look like an invasion. < 1308370955 975469 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-43500f4b.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But thank you. < 1308371122 119454 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god youre not actually going to object are you < 1308371130 771523 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i fucking hate quorum raisers who never do anything < 1308371132 832062 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you did < 1308371195 189522 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-43500f4b.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should look up the quorum rules quickly < 1308371218 196104 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should stop objecting to deregistrations of inactive people < 1308371220 993991 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if those peoplre are you < 1308371250 519038 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-43500f4b.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should quorum count inactive people? < 1308371271 665340 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why should constantly-inactive people be players? < 1308371274 131218 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the mechanism is there for a reason < 1308371328 496577 :foocraft!~ewanas@78.101.160.76 QUIT :Quit: So long, and thanks for all the fish! < 1308371386 686701 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-43500f4b.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is quorum fixed at the start of voting period, or determined at end? < 1308371394 447984 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-43500f4b.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either way, I'm going to sleep now < 1308371528 711328 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-43500f4b.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, *clap* *clap* *clap* < 1308371550 612634 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the mechanism still exists to be used, regardless of quorum rules < 1308371803 771880 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I would vote for a mechanism to deregister players forcibly who have been inactive for long enough < 1308371836 111241 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: it should be without objection from people who aren't the player < 1308371848 355614 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: or that < 1308371849 566631 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if someone is trying to exploit a lull in the game to become the dictator... < 1308371851 180142 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then that's no good < 1308371854 344068 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah < 1308371858 949544 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :people object to their deregistrations all the time < 1308371864 241547 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and its basically never justified < 1308373180 973397 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION gets really, really upset at the unused potential of the Super Gameboy. < 1308373259 4726 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not only could you use the thing to stick SNES games on a Gameboy cartridge, you could use it to supplement the Gameboy game by drawing SNES sprites onto the screen. < 1308373280 440440 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's precisely one example of either feature being used. < 1308373309 479414 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like Nintendo went "Fuck, let's design this totally awesome hardware and then NEVER USE ITS FEATURES". < 1308373528 613218 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: lolgameboy->console devices < 1308373551 590160 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Yeah, but the Super Gameboy actually did it right, as far as hardware is concerned. < 1308373567 986184 :yorick!~yorick@unaffiliated/yorick QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1308373574 342721 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :tbf I owned and enjoyed the game boy player < 1308373581 341674 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.85 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1308373630 170000 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Super Gameboy could have made Gameboy games look like native SNES games if the developers cared. < 1308373663 945580 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But no, they pretty much used it by adding a color pallete. < 1308373686 457405 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :marginal effort < 1308373686 900707 :yorick!~yorick@unaffiliated/yorick JOIN :#esoteric < 1308373691 907235 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup. < 1308373715 518549 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even the Pokemon games did more with it than most. < 1308373735 962225 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :also <3 Twilight Symphony < 1308373741 993351 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(simply by switching palletes for each area and having 3 palletes on screen in battles) < 1308373799 303994 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in case you've not played Pokemon on a Super Gameboy or an emulator that emulates SGB palleting: the life bars each get their own palletes, and each Pokemon has its own pallete.) < 1308373833 24984 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you can assign palletes to screen regions, with an 8x8 granularity) < 1308373940 229259 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. I think the Gameboy Player was *also* horribly underused... < 1308374005 320071 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :At a minimum, the thing was capable of doing multiplayer in the normal way: with each player having their own controller. < 1308374041 418995 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not to mention horribly underdesigned; it wouldn't have been hard to at *least* support SGB borders and palleting. < 1308374068 756870 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1308374092 968365 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(by doing the same trick that Gameboy emulators do for that; watching writes to the appropriate register and emulating those two features only) < 1308374121 918632 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1308374146 2305 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I wouldn't be surprised if that multiplayer trick was pulled off by letting you execute PPC code. < 1308374190 911733 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Making it definitely underused. < 1308374300 902661 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the best was using it for download play off of another GCN game < 1308374304 987433 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :like Crystal Chronicle < 1308374308 999336 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Chronicle < 1308374323 179744 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Wouldn't that require two Gamecubes? < 1308374329 427168 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. yes it would < 1308374361 635058 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, with Crystal Chronicles, that'd be 1+N Gamecubes, where N is the number of players. < 1308374365 8882 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't wait for the Wii U because two of my favorite GCN games were GBA-enabled ones < 1308374369 66545 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ayup < 1308374394 640958 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Wii U only supports a single Wii U pad, BTW. < 1308374408 834841 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :All other controllers must be Wiimotes, as far as I understand. < 1308374444 932673 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it doesn't do Gamecube compatibility, which makes me kinda sad. < 1308374451 418408 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It wouldn't be hard to do. < 1308374470 370222 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only non-trivial hardware change would be making the disc slot handle the smaller discs. < 1308374633 339918 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrm < 1308374639 143044 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :they better have multiple wii u pads < 1308374648 991713 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be incredibly disappointed if not < 1308374661 791340 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly a development restriction? < 1308374677 637498 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A "streaming 480p over Bluetooth" restriction. < 1308374684 776686 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh :/ < 1308374721 908868 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1308374739 346586 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :tbh I'd be surpried if the king of multiplayer and proprietary lock-in was going to take such a weak technological restriction at face value < 1308374742 802408 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i always feel like overcomplicated software is deliberately antagonising me < 1308374783 957472 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I think they're using Bluetooth primarily as a cost-cutting measure. < 1308374805 398588 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :05:24:37: A "streaming 480p over Bluetooth" restriction. < 1308374807 173538 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remember, though they love doing proprietary tech, the one thing they love more is making cheap hardware. < 1308374808 938640 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: hmm, I suspect terrible compression < 1308374816 156555 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :bluetooth is horrible < 1308374822 620606 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's inadequate even for low-end headphones < 1308374849 569104 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I'm not *sure* it's Bluetooth, I'm just guessing based on what I already know to be in the hardware. < 1308374869 257153 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the Wii U *must* have Bluetooth, since that's what Wiimotes use) < 1308374959 74523 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Important: Many numerical values in the pattern editor are in hexadecimal notation, not decimal < 1308374959 253976 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :notation. If you would like to know more about HEX, please refer to the “About HEX” topic later in this < 1308374959 254101 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :guide." < 1308374960 133600 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Bluetooth "High Speed", which is barely used, gets you 24 Mbps. Which is at least *adequate*. < 1308374962 696220 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think renoise was designed by asking < 1308374974 566936 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"what are the most pointless, unintuitive elements of the tracker aesthetic?" < 1308374981 645987 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and maximising them in a new piece of software < 1308375216 882602 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: someone should bring a sniffer to a game conference < 1308375229 9067 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Definitely. < 1308375232 807543 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, renoise does samples in the stupidest way possible < 1308375239 152483 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you assign a sample to a particular note value < 1308375241 374180 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :arbitrarily < 1308375247 711558 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think < 1308375259 462068 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Many values input into Renoise's pattern editor are hexadecimal (HEX). Because many beginners < 1308375259 641573 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :have problems with this fundamental concept, we will address that here. < 1308375260 820336 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most people are familiar with decimal because most people have 10 fingers. Instead, let's imagine we < 1308375262 822911 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :have 16 fingers - which, conveniently enough, comes in very handy for many musical concepts ;-)" < 1308375264 820677 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my god are you actually going to try and teach me hex < 1308375274 476524 :Patashu!Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :loll < 1308375277 606858 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: THAT IS AWFUL < 1308375283 473502 :Patashu!Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have to type everything in hexadecimal < 1308375288 197373 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I JUST WANT TO MAKE SOME SICK BEATS STOP DOING HORRIBLE THINGS TO ME < 1308375295 559943 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :<-- LITERALLY SOBBING < 1308375310 852967 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHY ARE THE PAN AND DELAY COLUMNS IN HEX < 1308375319 673066 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :THAT IS THE MOST ARBITRARILY THING EVER < 1308375321 311551 :Patashu!Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey guys < 1308375328 616783 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUCK THIS SHIT IM CLOSING RENOISE < 1308375329 134562 :Patashu!Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's take a human being who's immersed in decimal for their entire lifetime < 1308375336 953018 :Patashu!Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah that < 1308375350 867694 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :im just going to buy a casio sk1 and swear off all other sound-producing devices < 1308375356 375088 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If entering things in hex is an actually helpful UI feature, then they could just accept 0xFF-type syntax. < 1308375373 545636 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just don't understand pikhq... it's LEET < 1308375376 113406 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rather than doing such a UI sin. < 1308375391 232131 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: it's like a tracker, but modern, except not modern, you see < 1308375404 419652 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.renoise.com/files/screenshots/overview-261.png ;; this actually makes it look less horrific to use than it is < 1308375412 564747 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :crud < 1308375422 395649 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it with audio software and being a steaming pile of shit < 1308375429 864062 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :its like the two concepts are intimately linked < 1308375432 89871 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: What platform is that running on? < 1308375443 89241 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: windows, but it looks mostly the same pretty much everywhere :P < 1308375448 455628 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you name one I'm familiar with I will stab people. < 1308375454 5574 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck, I'm stabbing people. < 1308375457 411454 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can even forgive the non-nativeness < 1308375458 337836 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've lost my supar-awesome keyboard shortcut :( < 1308375460 243275 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't even give a shit about that < 1308375463 253692 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :its just unusable < 1308375472 97238 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if its not shit like this < 1308375476 683046 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :its using actual knobs in a computer UI < 1308375479 656875 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks like it has decided to commit every UI sin. < 1308375480 385976 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHY WOULD YOU EVER DO THAT < 1308375481 986405 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :USE A FUCKING SLIDER OMG < 1308375495 434351 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :THEY HAVE THE WONDERFUL SIDE-EFFECT OF NOT MAKING ME WANT TO KILL YOUR FAMILY < 1308375506 705235 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously, designing audio software to look like audio hardware is < 1308375508 443909 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just < 1308375510 181770 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you ever do it < 1308375511 536655 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate you < 1308375513 439841 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :irrevocably < 1308375560 290461 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/realcd.htm < 1308375571 603869 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually worse. < 1308375572 250846 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't count as audio software :P < 1308375610 662176 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :guys, gimme one reason not to NIH all audio production software < 1308375617 618477 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is literally all the worst < 1308375627 841459 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if other software is a steaming pile of shit < 1308375631 610066 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You will be forced to also NIH all audio handling APIs. < 1308375636 188609 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :SoX is not bad. < 1308375638 78241 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :audio software collapsed under its weight and formed a black hole ten billion years ago < 1308375642 107184 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: :) < 1308375645 33575 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: you make me smile with your words < 1308375646 466023 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even the *best* ones are very undocumented. < 1308375651 825538 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want to make an entire song with just SoX now < 1308375678 639059 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And ffmpeg's developers need to learn a thing or two about libraries. < 1308375684 815536 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I remember Reason not being quite an entire steaming pile of crap last time I used it < 1308375688 549292 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :despite trying to look like audio hardware < 1308375690 1222 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, SoX can make music, too. Both equal-temperament and just-intonation. < 1308375700 603994 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Namely, "FUCK YOU I DON'T WANT TO HAVE A FULL COPY OF YOUR SOURCE CODE IN MY SOURCE CODE. FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU." < 1308375711 297782 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i'm basically trying all the audio software that exists ever so I can complain about how much of a steaming pile of crap it is) < 1308375723 588176 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"INSTALL MOTHERFUCKING LIBRARIES IF YOU EXPECT OTHER PEOPLE TO USE IT YOU ANTI-DEVELOPER COCKS" < 1308375729 86031 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1308375877 31649 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, i think Ableton Live's only sin that I remember was having knob controls < 1308375918 570007 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still. Why would you ever want knob controls on a fucking computer? < 1308375933 307745 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well... they're smaller than a slider i guess < 1308375936 4802 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :My mouse moves in straight lines with ease. It does not go in circles easily. < 1308375946 74156 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: oh, you can control them with straight lines usually < 1308375949 731955 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :by going up and down < 1308375955 161185 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :its just that on a widescreen up and down arent very natural directions < 1308375959 451294 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and its reflected very weirdly in the knob spinning < 1308375962 256870 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1308375968 341166 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i agree that the ones you actually have to go in a circle with < 1308375970 232740 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :are unforgivable < 1308375991 577848 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also nice about a slider: they present bigger targets. < 1308375998 561248 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't want small targets. < 1308376021 834156 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: see with *elliottmusicsoftware*, such a continuous selector of a range is an abstract object that can be represented however the user wants them to be, on a default + case-by-case basis < 1308376025 708494 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't want freakishly big ones either, but it should not be a painstaking exercise to click on your thing. < 1308376188 745815 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: personally, my preferred replacement for knobs would be, visually, a circle with a coloured ring around the edge (knob-style :P) showing the current value, perhaps with the numerical value in the centre; but when you click it, it'd turn into a slider, with the current value of the slider aligned to the position of the cursor < 1308376196 477404 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(horizontal slider usually) < 1308376233 729364 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: With that, my only complaint would be non-nativenes. < 1308376260 617580 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yeah, but let's face it, "native" UIs don't exactly have a wealth of useful controls for things of this scale < 1308376287 217654 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, a piece of audio software completely following some HIG and using no non-native controls would ... probably not fit on any screen because of how huge everything would be < 1308376345 25002 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yeah, I'm not going to complain much about it being non-native if it's working around OS deficiencies. < 1308376354 144312 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it at least *looks* like it belongs there. < 1308376364 231118 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And is usable, of course. < 1308376373 531499 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's not usable then I reserve the right to beat you to death. < 1308376394 787370 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even care if all the controls look completely different, to be honest; in audio software, I'd say the situation is kind of opposite of a normal GUI app < 1308376402 199266 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :In that you have shitloads of controls that you don't want to stand out < 1308376507 711937 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, the most important thing is to make it so people can use the software without wanting to stab the developers. < 1308376513 113840 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And audio software fails at this. < 1308376530 654014 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Things like "looking native" is a nicety on top of that. < 1308376563 493981 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :lmao, reason demo disables saving < 1308376670 72808 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it does suffer from total try-to-look-like-hardware-itis < 1308376825 4956 :Kustas!~xix@228.224.196.88.dyn.estpak.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1308376886 803505 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The non-GUI audio software work better from what I can tell. < 1308376897 727994 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yyeaaaaaaaaaaaaaah < 1308376902 630570 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: http://i.imgur.com/GsdRl.png goifjgoidfg it hurts < 1308376909 74301 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok its actually not that bad apart from the visual noise < 1308376918 837780 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :also half the interface doesn't look like hardware at all < 1308376922 532220 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so its only half a crime < 1308376975 390092 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*gag* < 1308376987 630555 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Is that a VST? :P < 1308376990 992485 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do these people know *why* physical UIs look like that? < 1308376996 983063 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I think so? < 1308376998 737149 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course if it looks like hardware, it should be for a good reason, such as, it emulates hardware and acts like it! Otherwise it is a bad reason and it ought not to be looks like hardware it is bad thing to do that < 1308377003 300469 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I think Reason's interface is like... < 1308377009 134158 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :All VSTs are "designed" by retards. < 1308377011 781688 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: One half VSTs and mixers and the like < 1308377013 994005 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus one half sequencer < 1308377021 665867 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: The thing is, hardware UIs are not intended for use with a pointer device. < 1308377022 911150 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: But that's a global mixer thing so I don't think it's strictly a VST. < 1308377031 42204 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: They are meant for manipulation with actual human hands. < 1308377031 635688 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1308377049 52743 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: But here's the best part: < 1308377057 61356 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Completely different design considerations at hand here. < 1308377080 163634 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(One second, screenshotting :P) < 1308377105 771763 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: http://i.imgur.com/UlX2Q.png < 1308377111 470772 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :THANK YOU, REASON, FOR SIMULATING AN ACTUAL DECK < 1308377117 405992 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I WOULD BE TOTALLY LOST WITHOUT THIS HELPFUL BACKGROUND IMAGE < 1308377139 499769 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I SURE HOPE THE THREE LINES OF CODE AND THE THIRTY MINUTES IN PHOTOSHOP IT TOOK TO DO THAT WERE WORTH IT < 1308377160 122110 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :THE WHITESPACE GOD THE WHITESPACE < 1308377169 479159 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: wat < 1308377180 157472 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yes; true; but in a few (not all) cases, it might be useful to emulate a hardware and have it displayed on the computer screen. Not in all cases, though. (For emulating GameBoy it is not very useful, but in some cases it might.) (Also, you do not need to display the parts that have nothing to do with the emulation) < 1308377183 259077 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: By "white" I mean "empty rack slots" < 1308377191 713665 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: That's scrolled down to the bottom :P < 1308377203 179474 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: SUCH A STUPID FEATURE < 1308377241 164786 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :YESSS IT COMES WITH A COWBELL INSTRUMENT < 1308377248 667074 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is there even a scrollbar? There is nothing there what is the use of that please < 1308377256 222820 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: um there are more instruments above < 1308377344 118722 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :There may be but then why is there a space with nothing that it scroll to? Doesn't usually the scroll bar should only scroll the length of what is there? < 1308377348 544051 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Bahahaha < 1308377356 792712 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Ask the Reason developers :P < 1308377398 92100 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah, why is it even split vertically, it should be horizontal. < 1308377522 303609 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. SoX works fine, use that for audio. < 1308377631 51810 :Kustas!~xix@228.224.196.88.dyn.estpak.ee QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204] < 1308377757 714318 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I think some features ought to be combined ImageMagick with SoX. (At least it is possible to pipe ImageMagick to SoX (or vice versa), though.) < 1308377761 108526 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :loooooool < 1308377773 974382 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my god it just kicked me out because i spent twenty minutes messing around < 1308377776 486931 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats actually awesome < 1308377778 68005 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :speed songwriting < 1308377881 912494 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: ImageMagick to SoX? Why would you do that? < 1308377892 652685 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(no, really. I am highly curious what use case that could have.) < 1308377905 326206 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can find songwriting useful using MML (music macro language) based programs, such as PPMCK (I have made some improvements and bugfixes to PPMCK actually, including tail recursion) < 1308377967 981661 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit, now I've started mentally designing elliottmusicsoftware :( < 1308377969 200487 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Due to lack of effects in one program or the other. Represent the audio as a ...x1 grayscale image. And then use the various effects (some are useless for audio, some are OK for audio, and -fx is very useful for audio) < 1308377978 182352 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Can you write it down? < 1308377984 41649 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: on irc? < 1308377986 453988 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Strange. < 1308378018 974918 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: No, on a text file in your computer and then sent to sprunge < 1308378028 178159 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: boring :) < 1308378070 379768 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then write it on paper and then put on a wood table and then take the picture and ensure the focus is good enough to read it and then ask someone else to type it into the computer for you. < 1308378186 927820 :Kustas!~xix@228.224.196.88.dyn.estpak.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1308378216 384418 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And be sure to then uuencode and repeat the process. < 1308378399 155723 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Other cases are for making Fourier transform, and many of the effects in ImageMagick are useful for audio, some of which SoX already has similar things. To me at least it would make sense to combine it in one program < 1308378612 717972 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds like you're wanting a linear algebra program. < 1308378736 393844 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: whoops, my audio software design just pulled in an entire lisp < 1308378856 343426 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Now it just needs to do mail. < 1308378894 10299 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: write some network code to do IMAP, plug it into a text-to-speech object, voila! < 1308378941 652757 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The alpha channel can also have some uses for doing fading effects and stuff. Many effects in ImageMagick are already useful for audio, but just add a few more such as -echo and so on and then it should be very useful for audio. Stereo files can be represented by having like RED=LEFT GREEN=RIGHT for example. < 1308379001 564728 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :While -density can be used for sample rate (where 1 second = 1 inch) < 1308379003 30029 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :come to think of it, I seem to have invented something that can implement Max/MSP as just a certain kind of object < 1308379019 108967 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: inch? lol < 1308379055 96232 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Like I said, you seem to want a linear algebra system. < 1308379095 439421 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is much like an audio or image or video manipulation system, but generalised. < 1308379107 474969 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Maybe something like that. < 1308379250 419641 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It just seems convenient units to use due to the way the program already work < 1308379310 384860 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's an inch < 1308379330 432113 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :2.54 cenimetres < 1308379338 584481 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/cenimetres/centimetres/ < 1308379411 614117 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :specify digital images in terms of metres every day < 1308379465 579901 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I might like to have for audio and music making program is something like METAFONT. < 1308379497 734062 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: An "inch" is either 2.54 centimeters or 100/3937 meters. (latter definition exceptionally unused) < 1308379559 382665 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :METAFONT is already one of the best program for font making, and I think a similar thing could be made working with musics somehow. < 1308379561 220404 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :("international inch" and "survey inch", respectively) < 1308379604 241865 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :right but I don't see how inches/metres are useful for digital imaging, aside from translation to/from physical images, unless that's what the command or whatever is for < 1308379618 747896 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: He was proposing to use ImageMagick for audio manipulation. < 1308379637 532094 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: The -density command in ImageMagick is used when you want to specify what resolution is used for printing this image. < 1308379645 103846 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1308379778 168343 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sigh* US customary units. < 1308379805 114493 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So terrible. < 1308379941 167157 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :DVI units are specified in fractions of decimicrons, allowing for finer resolution than any printer has, as far as I know. < 1308380103 565868 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quick, how many miles per gallon is a league per barony-gill? < 1308380116 683406 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yes, that is a valid unit. League per barony-gill.) < 1308380195 130663 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, (a = b) = c is valid in C++ < 1308380197 892738 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :not in C, I don't think < 1308380241 624617 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Doesn't (a = b) result in an lvalue in C? < 1308380261 849572 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so < 1308380289 806506 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does (a = b) mean as an lvalue? < 1308380305 253011 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Presumably, same thing as a. < 1308380309 872361 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything else would be mad. < 1308380326 459305 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :anything at all would be mad < 1308380341 795141 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fair enough. < 1308380344 762033 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you decide with operator= < 1308380346 356569 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU DECIDE < 1308380347 472185 :Kustas!~xix@228.224.196.88.dyn.estpak.ee NICK :derrik < 1308380349 368354 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could return a global < 1308380356 143308 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a += b) -= c; < 1308380359 38958 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :could increment a by b < 1308380364 161689 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :then decrement aassoijdioajd by c < 1308380388 678541 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've always wanted to decrement aassoijdioajd by c < 1308380404 769228 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the same statement as incrementing a by b < 1308380497 947550 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/uBZOi.png WHY WOULD YOU EVEN DO THIS YOU ARE MAKING ME TURN OFF THE NO-SIDEBAR MODE YOU EXPLICITLY TURNED ON JUST SO I CAN GET TO THE FUCKING APPLICATIONS FOLDER AT LEAST PUT AN ALIAS TO IT IN THE DISK IMAGE GOD DAMN < 1308380546 718785 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what kind of gimmicky installation mechanism is that < 1308380558 456636 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: its called standard os x installation < 1308380561 152018 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it user friendly < 1308380561 604259 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1308380566 460049 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you download a disk image which contains a filesystem < 1308380570 931566 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mount the file system < 1308380578 603954 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you copy the application files to your applications folder < 1308380583 461361 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you unmount ("eject") the file system < 1308380587 323188 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then drag the disk image to your trash < 1308380592 121707 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :its ridiculous and terrible < 1308380618 796023 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you can unmount it by dragging the filesystem to your trash. < 1308380627 374895 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ableton's free 30-day license enables the "Save" and "Export" functions, so you can experience making music with no holds barred. To activate your free license, enter your e-mail address below. < 1308380628 845489 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can hardly wait < 1308380646 214876 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's still better than Windows installation. < 1308380660 918330 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but hey, apparently ableton integrates with Max? < 1308380667 678567 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is cool I guess < 1308380671 201104 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :big orgy of audio applications < 1308380705 701279 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Max is the only well-designed audio application, in fact it's one of the best-designed programs I've used, but unfortunately I am too crappy to make nice sounds with it :( < 1308380863 15905 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think some sort of METAFONT-like program would be good to make a music < 1308381143 57503 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Customize Live's color scheme and display size in the Look/Feel Preferences." < 1308381147 400457 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: monqy: im thinking green on pink < 1308381179 590500 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't forget the yellow < 1308381207 743112 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-247.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: How Gregorian. < 1308382109 377196 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"pad" in SoX is similar to "-border" in ImageMagick. "norm" is probably like "-auto-level". "reverse" is like "-flop". < 1308382162 976506 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: help I accidentally invented the best everything < 1308382848 394871 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: You know, it's not true that _all_ audio APIs are terrible or undocumented... < 1308382861 641845 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I bet Core Audio is quite nice. < 1308382919 676137 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it allowed in LLVM for a PHI node to return a label value? If so, can you then use that label in a branch instruction or other instruction? < 1308383002 169770 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Including other PHI nodes) < 1308383008 770898 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro might know < 1308383098 956468 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: hello < 1308383660 371509 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is coppro on and available? < 1308383684 600759 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :he spoke fairly recently < 1308383708 19043 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. two hours ago it seems :) < 1308384341 978343 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1308384543 67205 :derrik!~xix@228.224.196.88.dyn.estpak.ee PART :#esoteric < 1308385309 44430 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1308385970 302433 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Hmm... what's actually wrong with PortAudio? < 1308386017 189614 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :PortAudio has backends for everything[1]. < 1308386021 355868 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :[1] everything important < 1308386034 375260 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I'm talking API, latency, etc. wise :P < 1308386081 21807 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've only used PortMIDI, but if that's anything to go by, its API is "dump some bits here lulz" < 1308386124 427181 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: As far as I can tell, my options are exactly twofold: Core Audio, which is reportedly excellent and should basically give me no actual _problems_, but which would restrict me to running things on an OS I don't use day-to-day (although considering Linux's terrible audio situation I probably would anyway), and which also apparently has a rather... horrific API; not in that it's /bad/, but in that it's ... you know ... flexible; < 1308386124 606828 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and PortAudio, which would probably be less of a pain and which would be more portable but... might be bad inexplicably???? < 1308386128 317925 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow that was a long sentence. < 1308386131 787630 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That... that was one sentence. Wow. < 1308386182 175521 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, oh god what are you trying to do. < 1308386182 354953 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. < 1308386187 443063 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y'know, Linux's audio situation has improved enormously over the last few