00:00:27 <Sgeo> Paypal deals with monkeys now?
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00:04:59 <zzo38> Do you know whether or not a PHI node in LLVM is allowed to return label type values and if those values can be used later?
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01:40:13 <zzo38> Once my grandfather said he would call the president and tell him to remove the words "I don't want" from the dictionary.
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02:00:15 <zzo38> Tell me if you would like to have access to TeXnicard_Extra repository.
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02:05:48 <zzo38> Guest10869: Wrong number please
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03:12:09 <zzo38> Are you going to have Qu'ran for dinner?
03:12:52 <pikhq_> I'm afraid that Qu'ran is probably not that good-tasting.
03:17:02 <pikhq_> Still, I'd rather not eat a book of bullshit.
03:17:44 <coppro> `addquote < pikhq_> I'm afraid that Qu'ran is probably not that good-tasting. < coppro> pikhq_: edible paper < pikhq_> Still, I'd rather not eat a book of bullshit.
03:17:45 <HackEgo> 463) < pikhq_> I'm afraid that Qu'ran is probably not that good-tasting. < coppro> pikhq_: edible paper < pikhq_> Still, I'd rather not eat a book of bullshit.
03:20:27 <coppro> guy comes in with a probability (die rolling) question
03:20:33 <coppro> I ask "How would you approach the problem?"
03:21:06 <monqy> was it least a good problem
03:21:35 <coppro> If you roll a six-sided die three times, what are the odds that the results are not all different
03:22:02 <pikhq_> Hmm. Annoying, but not hard.
03:24:34 <pikhq_> Yeah, certainly not the sort of problem people do because they're curious.
03:25:14 <pikhq_> (arguably the worst part of homework for math: it's problems that are fundamentally boring.)
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03:30:08 <coppro> he just asked (and, after a prod, solved) another one; this time the chances that two dice are the same and there is at least one six
03:37:15 <zzo38> I think support of these units for measurements on paper should be sufficient: pt (point) bp (desktop publishing point) in (inch) cm (centimetre) mm (millimetre) em (em width -- font specific) ex (ex height -- font specific)
03:37:48 <zzo38> I don't think other are needed but you can tell me if you believe otherwise.
03:37:55 <pikhq_> That seems entirely sufficient.
03:38:27 <zzo38> Actually I probably don't need centimetres if you can use millimetres instead. Do you think should be removed or not?
03:40:51 <coppro> You should just use metres and accept all SI prefixes
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03:43:53 <zzo38> coppro: I doubt that is necessary or important. It would also clash with the other units and complicate the programming. Maybe in other programs it would be useful though.
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04:03:01 * Sgeo learns about Fredkin gates
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04:58:01 <Sgeo> If complex numbers weren't invented, how difficult would it be to work them out from the understanding of quantum mechanics?
04:59:20 <pikhq_> I'm pretty sure that complex numbers would by necessity have been described *much* earlier.
05:00:09 <pikhq_> Given that you absolutely need an understanding thereof for understanding certain classes of differential equations.
05:00:19 <pikhq_> Guess what's used extensively in classical mechanics?
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06:47:20 <evincar> How's life in the esoteric world?
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06:56:21 <Lymee> Let's make a page calling Haskell a wimpmode of Unlambda
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07:34:45 <Patashu> unlambda is a wimpmode of subtle cough
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08:39:24 <cheater_> Patashu, wtf is "subtle cough"?
08:44:45 <Patashu> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Subtle_cough
09:13:30 <Lymee> I went and made a basic optimizing Brainfuck->C compiler in Scala.
09:14:02 <Lymee> It might benefit from code to recognize balanced loops and handle them specially.
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12:42:24 <Lymee> I'm writing an Brainfuck->C compiler for fum
12:42:37 <Lymee> I'm getting a lot of this:
12:42:57 <Lymee> Guess it's time to write code to turn stuff like this into something less painful, eh...
12:45:04 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 5 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
12:45:16 <Lymee> Phantom_Hoover, fun is fun.
12:49:32 <CakeProphet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dangling_else
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12:54:22 <Lymee> Phantom_Hoover, and don't tell me I can't beat esotope.
12:54:26 <Lymee> I will try, damnit.
12:55:24 <Lymee> Phantom_Hoover, i will.
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13:01:11 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, I have some weird rock version of The Bonnie Banks of Loch Lomond stuck in my head.
13:19:47 <Vorpal> <Lymee> Phantom_Hoover, and don't tell me I can't beat esotope. <-- of course it can be done, but it won't be easy
13:20:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, *ouch*
13:20:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, what are you talking about, it's an awesome weird rock version of The Bonnie Banks of Loch Lomond.
13:23:21 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/i61gh/say_a_ship_with_humans_on_it_makes_it_to_the_edge/
13:23:35 <Phantom_Hoover> This is possibly the single stupidest question I have seen on AskScience.
13:27:19 <Patashu> It's actually not very well understood
13:27:46 <Patashu> People talk about the universe expanding
13:27:49 <Patashu> Often relating it to a balloon
13:27:54 <Patashu> So you could think 'the universe has an edge then'
13:27:57 <Patashu> and then try to think about it and ?_?
13:28:17 <Patashu> I think I'm a bit confused about it myself. Is it true that the universe is shaped as the 3D surface of a 4D sphere equivalent?
13:28:29 <Patashu> So if you travel in any direction you travel the 3D equivalent of a great circle
13:28:59 <Vorpal> yeah I think I heard about that one too
13:29:08 <Vorpal> of course, no one knows for sure yet.
13:29:38 <Phantom_Hoover> ISTR someone looking at the CMB and suggesting that the data was consistent with the universe being a Poincare dodecahedron, but I think it was also refuted or at least too uncertain.
13:30:24 <Patashu> If you aren't experienced in thinking about 4 dimensional shapes
13:30:27 <Patashu> you WILL think there's an edge
13:30:32 <Patashu> or that the universe is infinitely large (not true)
13:31:23 <Vorpal> Patashu, think of something like the game astroids where iirc if you go across one edge you appear on the other.
13:31:39 <Patashu> That's because I've thought about it before
13:32:23 <Vorpal> I wonder what it would be like to see in more than 3 dimensions
13:32:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes, it isn't an exact parallel.
13:33:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, however, it illustrates the general concept
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13:34:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what curvature does the Poincare dodecahedron have?
13:35:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I'm guessing it's positive, since it's similar to the sphere.
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13:42:38 * Phantom_Hoover notes that his understanding of special relativity has collapsed.
13:43:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh? It is easy, twins age at different rates when one travels at high speed. The end.
13:43:53 <Vorpal> (actually: accelerates)
13:51:46 <quintopia> Stockholm has a sea fortress called Suomenlina, and in Iceland there is a restaurant called Cafe Summalinna, I think in a town of the same name. Do any of the scandinavians here know if these words are related?
13:52:06 <Vorpal> quintopia, Stockholm has a sea fortress called Suomenlina, <-- sure? That sounds Finnish to me
13:52:34 <Vorpal> quintopia, big difference
13:52:40 <quintopia> but i'm almost positive it's stockholm
13:52:46 <Vorpal> yeah it is Helsinki says google
13:52:58 <Vorpal> quintopia, for a start it is a different language family
13:53:00 <quintopia> i rode too many ferries to remember where they came from and where they went
13:53:40 <Vorpal> quintopia, besides it seems to be spelled Suomenlinna
13:53:47 <quintopia> sure the families are different, but helsinki used to be in sweden, so maybe they got some loan words?
13:54:04 <quintopia> Vorpal: which makes it even closer to the spelling summalinna
13:55:23 <Vorpal> quintopia, however it is the wrong language group if it is in Finland and Iceland. One is a germanic language, the other is a finnic language
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13:56:32 <quintopia> apparently it means "visitor" in finnish?
13:56:51 <Vorpal> I'm from Sweden, not Finland
13:57:32 <quintopia> all the road signs in helsinki are in both swedish and finnish. it wouldn't be hard for you to get around :P
13:57:54 <Vorpal> quintopia, doesn't mean I speak Finnish :P
13:58:34 <quintopia> but google does, and it says "visitor"
13:58:37 <Vorpal> quintopia, anyway that is a rather different dialect of Swedish spoken over there. Some words would be different certainly.
13:58:53 <Vorpal> quintopia, google thinks cm = inches when I translated a page :P
13:59:10 <Vorpal> without converting the value
13:59:45 <Deewiant> quintopia: "Suomenlinna" = "Finland's castle"
13:59:46 <quintopia> i don't use it to translate pages. it sucks at that
13:59:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, hi see the mc channel
14:00:27 <Vorpal> quintopia, it seems to suck at tanslating words too
14:00:38 <Vorpal> quintopia, anyway I doubt the Icelandic one is related
14:00:49 <Vorpal> quintopia, since Deewiant spoke about what it meant in Finnish
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14:02:56 <fizzie> AFAIK them Icelandickers try to avoid loanwords quite much.
14:08:14 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean c'mon, English borrowed everyone else's words and suddenly they don't want them back?
14:08:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I guess it is an attempt at retaining the identity of the language, since it is small, it won't be as easy as for English
14:08:45 <Vorpal> Iceland has a tiny population
14:10:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, Kylie is derived from an Australian Aboriginal word?
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14:18:44 * Sgeo only 4 days later sees the stunt elliott tried to pull on me in Agora
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14:29:53 <Sgeo> Someone tried to degregister me and some other people by objection. I objected
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14:30:55 <Sgeo> Shortly afterwards, elliott complained about this, but while doing so, repeated the original intent, exactly as it appeared in the original emaill.... so that in Gmail, and perhaps some other clients, it looked like elliott was just quoting what appeared in a previous email.
14:31:34 <Sgeo> Hmm, now I'm wondering what would have happened if tswett didn't notice. Would have been an interesting CFJ
14:34:25 <Sgeo> If someone doesn't think to click "Show quoted text" then it wouldn't be noticed that elliott was actually taking an action, rather than just referring to a previous message
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15:17:04 * Phantom_Hoover notes that they really turned up the sex for the 6th series of Futurama
15:18:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, they changed the layout of Zoidberg's internal organs.
15:24:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, why would they do the latter
15:34:14 <Vorpal> I just discovered the sport "Extreme Ironing". WTF but awesome.
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17:16:34 <oerjan> `translatefromto en fi Does this work any longer?
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17:16:55 <oerjan> `translatefromto fi en suomenlinna
17:17:01 <oerjan> `translatefromto fi en suomen linna
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17:17:44 <oerjan> quintopia: ^ Pretty conclusive i'd say
17:18:01 <oerjan> `translatefromto is en summalinna
17:18:28 <oerjan> `translatefromto is en tölva
17:18:46 <oerjan> `translatefromto is en summa linna
17:19:21 <oerjan> i think -ina or -inna is a possible definite article, though
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17:20:05 <oerjan> but summal doesn't sound very icelandic to me
17:20:07 <zzo38> Has the present king of France stopped robbing banks?
17:20:48 <quintopia> нйеееееееееееееееееееееееееееееееееееееееееееееееееееееет
17:22:15 <oerjan> i cannot find any trace of this icelandic thing you refer to
17:24:23 <oerjan> in fact the top hit i get for summalinna is someone misspelling the other one :P
17:26:18 <fizzie> In quotes, that's the only hit I get for "Summalinna".
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17:28:10 <oerjan> quintopia: there's a swedish café smulan, if that helps :P
17:28:57 <oerjan> (if it's anything like norwegian, smulan = the crumb)
17:31:03 <oerjan> quintopia: do you have any idea where you heard about this icelandic cafe?
17:31:35 <oerjan> and you're sure it was iceland
17:32:38 <quintopia> in the journal it's spelled summalina
17:33:46 <oerjan> and where in iceland was this?
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17:34:52 <oerjan> that exact word gives only 8 google hits
17:36:37 <quintopia> the village had "fjörður" at the end of course
17:38:16 <oerjan> i guess it's a too tiny village then...
17:39:26 <quintopia> they had an internet connection i think, but i don't think they had a website :P
17:40:39 <quintopia> If i had to guess, i'd say it was Reyðarfjörður. that sounds right and looks to be in the right place.
17:43:41 <quintopia> it's on the Faskrúðsfjörður wikipedia page :P
17:44:04 <oerjan> `translatefromto is en sumarlína
17:44:08 <oerjan> `translatefromto is en sumar lína
17:47:34 <oerjan> `translatefromto is en sumarinn
17:47:44 <oerjan> `translatefromto is en sumarin
17:48:05 <oerjan> `translatefromto is en lína
17:48:39 <oerjan> so, i am guessing the first part is summer
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17:49:16 <Deewiant> (geometry) a line, a straight line syn.
17:54:44 <oerjan> oh it's actually a woman's name http://is.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumarl%C3%ADna
17:55:54 <oerjan> that page should make all clear *cackles madly*
17:57:49 <oerjan> oh wait there may be only two people called that (since 1950, anyway) :P
18:06:28 <oerjan> oh Lína is a female name, the term "mannanöfn" confused me
18:06:52 <oerjan> to a norwegian it looks like it means "men's name", but it actually just means "human name"
18:07:09 <oerjan> so Sumarlína is a simple compound, i guess
18:07:39 <quintopia> icelandic is the least changed from old norse. back then "man" meant "human"
18:09:02 <oerjan> yes, but curiously it seems not to _also_ mean just "male human"
18:10:50 <oerjan> unlike in norwegian, where "mann" means male, these days mostly unambiguously
18:10:57 <HackEgo> 34) <zzo38> I am not on the moon.
18:11:23 <oerjan> tswett: IT WOULD HAVE EXPLAINED SO MUCH
18:15:48 <oerjan> ok wiktionary seems to indicate it sometimes still means "man", or "husband"
18:17:58 <quintopia> oerjan: in old english, i think man was human, where husman was man and wyfman was woman, or somethign like that
18:23:07 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: acro aol austro bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes chaos chiqrsx9p choo ctcp dc decide drawl drome dubya echo eehird ehird elmer fudd google graph gregor hello id jethro kraut lperl lsh map num ook pansy pi pikhq pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler prefixes python redneck reverse rimshot rot13 rot47 sadbf sanetemp sfedeesh sffedeesh simplename slashes svedeesh swedish ustemp valspeak warez wc yodawg
18:23:31 <EgoBot> haskell import System.Random; main = (randomRIO (0,1) :: IO Int) >>= print
18:25:12 <oerjan> !haskell import System.Random; main = randomRIO (0,1) >>= print
18:25:29 <lambdabot> dice <expr>. Throw random dice. <expr> is of the form 3d6+2.
18:26:32 <oerjan> i wonder wth ghc doesn't use defaulting to make that Integer...
18:26:47 <lambdabot> unexpected "*": expecting digit, "+" or end
18:27:35 <oerjan> ?? ?run (?dice 4d7)*3+1
18:27:36 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `=>'
18:29:21 <quintopia> oerjan: speaking of Lína being a female name, the swedish version of that name is the name of the most famous woman in computing history :P
18:29:56 <oerjan> i thought lina was the swedish version
18:31:08 <oerjan> well obviously there are several versions, but i assume lina is the closest one
18:32:24 <quintopia> she's also the centerfold of the most popular issue in Playboy history
18:32:54 <newsham> what do you want 4d7*3+1 to be?
18:33:01 <oerjan> "It is a picture of Lena Söderberg, a Swedish model, shot by photographer Dwight Hooker."
18:33:40 <Deewiant> I'd still argue that Ada's more popular :-P
18:34:04 <oerjan> Deewiant: you'd think. and Grace.
18:35:09 <oerjan> newsham: mostly, i'd want it to be a number you could feed on into @run
18:36:16 <quintopia> Deewiant, oerjan: you underestimate the male sex drive :P
18:36:43 <quintopia> fucking lady byron. i think she was probably a nutcase
18:41:53 <lambdabot> run <expr>. You have Haskell, 3 seconds and no IO. Go nuts!
18:42:30 <newsham> oerjan: ?. ?run and ?dice ?
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18:46:56 <oerjan> newsham: ?? works slightly different than ?.
18:47:22 <oerjan> newsham: my point was the result of @dice is not a plain number
18:48:55 <oerjan> @@ @run (read . last . words $ @read @dice 4d7)*3+1
18:48:56 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Prelude.read: no parse
18:48:58 <newsham> make an "unDice" function :)
18:49:14 <lambdabot> Plugin `dummy' failed with: Prelude.read: no parse
18:49:26 <oerjan> @show maybe this was it
18:49:34 <oerjan> @@ @run (read . last . words $ @show @dice 4d7)*3+1
18:49:35 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
18:50:37 <oerjan> @@ @run last . words $ @show @dice 4d7
18:51:15 <oerjan> @@ @run (last . words $ @show @dice 4d7)
18:51:16 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
18:51:31 <oerjan> @@ @run (last . words $ (@show @dice 4d7))
18:51:37 <oerjan> @@ @run (last . words $ (@show @dice 4d7))*3+1
18:51:38 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num GHC.Base.String)
18:51:47 <oerjan> @@ @run (read . last . words $ (@show @dice 4d7))*3+1
18:52:07 <newsham> lambdabot is looking more and more like an esoteric language
18:52:11 <oerjan> newsham: anyway you can see how much simpler that would have been if @dice just printed the number :P
18:52:25 <newsham> oerjan: submit a patch! ;-)
18:53:19 <newsham> also ?let undice = read . last . words . @show or something like so?
18:54:03 <newsham> ok, without the @show, but with the rest, still makes it simpler
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19:00:10 <oerjan> is adamfyre a burning man
19:03:04 <oerjan> well stop playing with gasoline!
19:07:32 -!- adamfyre has quit (Quit: AndroidIrc Disconnecting).
19:08:26 <oerjan> just a man on a qwest, passing by
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19:29:04 * pikhq wonders at ldd /bin/ls
19:29:14 <pikhq> Does ls really need libdl?
19:34:43 <newsham> ls --with-gnu-emacs-dynamic-module-option=my.so
19:34:55 <pikhq> Ah, probably being pulled in through libacl and libselinux.
19:35:02 <pikhq> I'm very curious about libpthread still.
19:46:50 <newsham> http://code.google.com/p/unix-jun72/source/browse/trunk/src/cmd/ls.s
19:50:42 <Deewiant> That's almost 10x less lines of asm than there are lines of C in GNU ls
19:54:20 <newsham> jsrr5,questf; < nonexistent\n\0>;
19:54:56 <newsham> sometimes args are put inline in the code
19:55:05 <newsham> the caller adjusts the return addr
20:20:59 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: it's like perl
20:27:40 <olsner> newsham: javascript:alert(/whatever/) just displays /whatever/
20:31:06 <oerjan> !perl print q doesthiswork? ;
20:31:07 <EgoBot> Can't find string terminator "d" anywhere before EOF at /tmp/input.5883 line 1.
20:31:30 <oerjan> hmph pesky space exception
20:32:08 <oerjan> !perl print q_but this then?_;
20:32:08 <EgoBot> syntax error at /tmp/input.5986 line 1, near "_;"
20:32:30 <oerjan> !perl print q _but this then?_ ;
20:32:34 <olsner> wow, perl has syntax errors?
20:33:02 <olsner> and here I thought every byte sequence would be a valid perl program
20:33:21 <olsner> or: what weird dialect of perl is this bot using?
20:33:38 <oerjan> and chixqsomething relies on it, too!
20:33:49 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: acro aol austro bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes chaos chiqrsx9p choo ctcp dc decide drawl drome dubya echo eehird ehird elmer fudd google graph gregor hello id jethro kraut lperl lsh map num ook pansy pi pikhq pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler prefixes python redneck reverse rimshot rot13 rot47 sadbf sanetemp sfedeesh sffedeesh simplename slashes svedeesh swedish ustemp valspeak warez wc yodawg
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20:34:13 <olsner> !svedeesh my hovercraft is full of eels
20:34:14 <EgoBot> my hooffercrefffft is fuull oouffff iels
20:34:15 <oerjan> !chiqrsx9p xThis should compile as perl, dammit!
20:34:16 <EgoBot> Unquoted string "l" may clash with future reserved word at (eval 1) line 1, <STDIN> line 1.
20:34:57 <olsner> so everything else was fine, but a stray 'l' will kill you? nice one
20:35:19 <oerjan> !chiqrsx9p xThis should compile as perl, dammit!
20:35:38 <newsham> olsner: true. almost string like though
20:35:38 <oerjan> !echo did that kill you?
20:35:54 <newsham> whats the way to convert it to string.. something like /foo/.src?
20:36:24 <newsham> i think its non portable :(
20:36:40 <oerjan> olsner: technically that was a warning not an error, i think
20:37:03 <olsner> I think that must have been its string conversion that I saw, presumably opera stringifies regexps as /etc/
20:40:22 <olsner> oerjan: ... syntax error is a warning?
20:40:49 <oerjan> olsner: i mean that unquoted string thing
20:40:49 <olsner> or did you refer to the chiqrsx9p message?
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21:05:33 * Phantom_Hoover reads the list of ideas, notes that someone thinks that #!s use your path.
21:06:14 <Phantom_Hoover> (Wait, does it? It's handled in the kernel, so I assume it isn't poking through the env, but...)
21:06:15 <olsner> they can! if you make the #! use something that uses your path that is
21:06:46 <olsner> e.g. /usr/bin/env foo is a common idiom, which I have no idea what it *really* does
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21:07:27 <Phantom_Hoover> It also allows control over the precise nature of the environment.
21:08:08 <olsner> but what it does when given no options is to look up foo in the path, as opposed to putting #!foo directly which wouldn't?
21:08:54 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:09:19 <Phantom_Hoover> #!<foo> tells execve to execute <foo> <file>, and I really really doubt execve even *can* look at the environment.
21:10:00 <olsner> hmm, the environment for a process does exist in the kernel, doesn't it?
21:10:28 <Phantom_Hoover> zsh: ./foo: bad interpreter: sh: no such file or directory
21:10:56 <olsner> but it would be iffy for the kernel to rely on the environment variable called "PATH" to have a special meaning
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21:12:11 <olsner> the kernel should run #! files through /sbin/hashbang, and then that could be like a link to bash or whatever
21:12:30 <Phantom_Hoover> If it's not an absolute pathname, it's just interpreted relative to the current directory.
21:13:19 <olsner> hmm, so what if foo starts with #!foo?
21:15:32 <olsner> hmm, "zsh: ...", you may be invoking shell magic rather than kernel magic here
21:24:17 <pikhq_> olsner: You actually could do that.
21:24:52 <pikhq_> olsner: Linux has the ability to execute arbitrary interpreters for files, based on magic or filename.
21:25:08 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: you know, like how files without any #! will run fine from shells
21:25:35 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, that'll just be zsh recovering from execve errors.
21:26:01 <pikhq_> Yeah, that's probably a perror(errno, "zsh")
21:26:37 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: in bash, a file foo containing #!foo will just do nothing and return successfully
21:27:27 <pikhq_> Indeed, there's no real reason for shebang handling to be in Linux anymore. Just make /sbin/shebang the handler for the magic "#!".
21:27:48 <pikhq_> (or, if you don't want to do any actual work, /usr/bin/perl)
21:28:33 <olsner> you mean because perl will interpret hashbangs? or because it will accept any byte sequence?
21:28:50 <pikhq_> Perl interprets shebang.
21:30:03 <olsner> nice, I should start calling my shell scripts .pl with a bash hashbang and pretend that I think it's perl code
21:30:50 <olsner> I mean, that will work on windows, so I would pretend that I only test my perl scripts on windows
21:31:20 <olsner> which will be hard considering I don't have any running windows systems ... crap, my evil plans suck :(
21:31:50 <pikhq_> I'm pretty sure the only reason for it is so that passing arguments to perl from the shebang works even if you do 'perl foo.pl'.
21:34:24 <zzo38> Today I won a game of Magic: the Gathering even though I had negative 40 life points (my opponent had positive 23).
21:35:35 <pikhq_> Managed to pull off a "you cannot lose the game" trick?
21:36:14 <zzo38> Not quite. I managed to pull off a "state based effects stop working until end of turn" trick.
21:37:02 <zzo38> Positive 23 was his score at the end of the game
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21:40:10 <pikhq_> ... *State based effects* stop working. That's an astounding feat.
21:40:56 <zzo38> The imperfect deck split probably helped me to win.
21:41:12 <olsner> yes, always the imperfect splitting of the deck
21:41:35 <olsner> but however imperfect it may have been, it must have been pretty good if it made you win?
21:42:22 <zzo38> We did not construct the deck. There is a deck of many cards, nine of which I made up myself, mixed up and split, then half is given to each player (without knowing which is which). So both of us had some of these made up cards (the others are very old cards).
21:42:54 <zzo38> Probably a card played by my opponent helped me to win.
21:43:16 <zzo38> In combination with a card I played.
21:43:47 <pikhq_> I don't think there's actually a way to stop state-based effects.
21:44:10 <pikhq_> And it would break rather a lot of stuff, considering what the state-based effects *are*.
21:44:32 <pikhq_> e.g. "Tokens not on the battlefield cease to exist".
21:47:46 <zzo38> Another strange thing? One of my creatures had seven -1/-1 counters (which I put on myself).......
21:48:24 <pikhq_> Seriously, *how the hell did you pull off no state-based effects*.
21:48:37 <pikhq_> And why didn't you use it to break things further?
21:49:16 <pikhq_> Tokens in the library! Sorceries on the battlefield!
21:49:50 <zzo38> pikhq_: I don't think sorceries on the battlefield is related to state-based effects.
21:50:09 <pikhq_> A spell not on the stack ceases to exist as a state-based effect.
21:50:10 <zzo38> The rule was, last I checked: "Instant or sorcery trying to come into play instead remains where it is"
21:50:46 <pikhq_> Sorry, that's a *copy* of a spell.
21:51:03 <pikhq_> Still would let you put things on the battlefield that shouldn't be.
21:51:29 <zzo38> One of the made-up cards (my opponent made up some cards too; both of us agreed to each other cards and then the cards were mixed with others and split at random between us (neither of us constructed a deck))
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21:58:47 <zzo38> In fact I had an idea make up a card (not used in this game) was a creature card with phasing and "when this card comes into play, it becomes an instant in addition to its other types"
21:59:39 <zzo38> As far as I can tell, this would result in the card remaining phased out for the rest of the game.
22:01:41 <zzo38> Once in an actual tournament my opponent disagreed with me about the rules. I was correct and the judge confirmed it, so the opponent decided to concede because they didn't like that rule.
22:02:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:03:03 <zzo38> (At the same time, the tournament organizer failed to compute the scores correctly (by failing to post that score) and scored me in second place (I should have been first).) (Also, that was the only time in a tournament where I didn't score last place.)
22:03:59 <zzo38> Actually there was one tournament where I failed to score any placing because as it turned out there was not enough time to start the game.
22:07:50 <zzo38> Some people say the new rules are simplified. I say they are only more klugy. I say all editions of Magic: the Gaterhing are klugy and they always are adding klugy rules, especially the rules having to do with planeswalkers are also klugy.
22:08:04 <oerjan> <pikhq_> I'm pretty sure the only reason for it is so that passing arguments to perl from the shebang works even if you do 'perl foo.pl'. <-- iirc it's also because shebangs are (at least in some os'es) restricted to a single option argument
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22:25:48 <pikhq_> zzo38: Less kludgey than just about every other game's rules, though.
22:26:20 <pikhq_> Simply by merit of being well-defined.
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22:33:51 <coppro> I know of no way by which the rule zzo38 quoted can actually come into to play
22:35:23 <zzo38> pikhq_: Yes, the rules are well defined but __________
22:35:52 <coppro> ah, the dreaded underscore problem
22:35:54 <zzo38> coppro: That is why I invented such a card.
22:36:47 <zzo38> Perhaps it would make more sense a copy of a spell entering play becomes a token.
22:36:53 <coppro> also, the rules for phasing have changed
22:37:05 <pikhq_> zzo38: The Un* cards do not work at present.
22:37:26 <coppro> phasing is now a status on permanents
22:37:31 <coppro> phased-out things do not leave the battlefield
22:37:34 <pikhq_> The rules for phasing are actually sane now.
22:38:09 <pikhq_> They're still a bit... Large, but mortals can understand them.
22:38:17 <coppro> pikhq_: I maintain they're printable
22:38:30 <zzo38> coppro: Well at the time that I posted that of my idea it worked the other way.
22:38:33 <pikhq_> Yes. Just barely, but it has become printable.
22:39:17 <zzo38> Still, I prefered most of the rules the way they were before, although some things I would change are things that no edition of the rules has at all
22:39:45 <pikhq_> At the very least, they can be explained succinctly now. "When cards phase in, you throw a tarp over them. When they phase out, you take the tarp off."
22:39:52 <coppro> what rules do you not like the modern versions of them?
22:40:15 <zzo38> I think the rules are beyond repair and have been that way forever.
22:40:28 <zzo38> pikhq_: That is one change I don't like that they remove mana burn
22:40:47 <pikhq_> zzo38: The rules for Magic have been entirely rewritten from scratch a few times.
22:40:48 <zzo38> However, I would remove the rule that auras that are also creatures are removed from play.
22:41:21 <pikhq_> Probably the most notable instance of this is 6th edition.
22:41:29 <zzo38> pikhq_: They are beyond repair no matter if you rewrite them from scratch today when taking this into account! You would also have to make an entirely new game with new cards and everything else new too.
22:41:41 <coppro> They're quite far from beyond repair
22:41:50 <pikhq_> Where literally *all the mechanics changed*.
22:42:10 <coppro> They deal with nearly every situation
22:42:13 <pikhq_> (y'know the stack? 6th edition.)
22:42:21 <coppro> Usually, though not always, in a sane and intuitive manner
22:42:25 <zzo38> Sixth edition certainly did fix many things but still many things are broke
22:42:41 <coppro> There are a few things that are and will forever remain horribly complex
22:42:56 <zzo38> Banding and suspend are not my concerns.
22:43:27 <coppro> mana burn was a fine rule, but it was not necessary
22:43:48 <pikhq_> I'm upset about mana burn being gone simply because it was a very flavorful thing.
22:43:48 <zzo38> Things such as combat, even. And damage, and various other things. (Including the one I mentioned about auras being creatures)
22:44:00 <pikhq_> But, yeah, certainly not necessary.
22:44:26 <zzo38> Nothing to do with flavorful but I think mana burn is a useful rule to exist in the game.
22:44:34 <coppro> the auras being creatures rule is one that exists for sanity
22:44:46 <coppro> In my experience, mana burn was just a nuisance
22:44:55 <zzo38> I also would have change much of the rules having to do with card types...... and more..... even planeswalkers......
22:44:59 <coppro> The only time it made a significant difference was when it was abused
22:45:37 <zzo38> coppro: Yes, I agree about tribal. I would have had subtypes work entirely differently, instead
22:45:52 <coppro> I still don't understand why it wouldn't have worked as a supertype :/
22:46:04 <pikhq_> Supertypes can't have subtypes.
22:46:07 <zzo38> coppro: I do understand why it wouldn't have worked as a supertype.
22:46:15 <zzo38> Yes, what pikhq_ said
22:46:55 <coppro> pikhq_: It's a minor change to allow tribal to grant creature types
22:47:07 <pikhq_> Though it seems to me that subtypes necessarily being attached to types is a bit of a bug.
22:47:09 <zzo38> :You think the auras being creatures rule is one that exists for sanity? I disagree with the rule anyways.
22:47:25 <pikhq_> Not sure how best to handle it, though. :/
22:47:28 <zzo38> pikhq_: Yes, subtypes should be attached to nothing, in my opinion
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22:48:05 <pikhq_> coppro: Actually, to do truly minimal changing to things, tribal could have been a keyword.
22:48:32 <coppro> ability-affecting stuff would mess with that
22:48:53 <coppro> zzo38: Subtypes should not be attached to nothing
22:48:56 <pikhq_> Though then it wouldn't be in the type line, and OH DEAR GOD THEY ACTUALLY PUBLISHED ABILITY AFFECTING STUFF SOON AFTER
22:49:21 <coppro> There are a number of cards that rely on noncreature subtypes being impossible to duplicate
22:49:33 <coppro> see the Shrines, Urzatron...
22:49:53 <coppro> heh, that's a good one
22:49:56 <zzo38> coppro: Those kind of things are partially what I mean by beyond repair, but there are other things too
22:49:58 <coppro> Urza's being a land type
22:50:07 <coppro> zzo38: hardly beyond repair
22:50:16 <coppro> beyond repair implies they don't work
22:50:20 <zzo38> Then I have used the wrong word.
22:50:24 <coppro> the rules for magic work quite fine
22:50:32 <coppro> overly complicated? perhaps
22:50:34 <pikhq_> They just have to deal with a lot of edge cases.
22:52:15 <zzo38> pikhq_: That is the stupid part.
22:53:17 <pikhq_> The only way to deal with that *would*, in fact, be to junk all previous cards.
22:54:08 <zzo38> pikhq_: That would be, to, make an entirely new game too.
22:54:44 <pikhq_> Yes, it would inherently be a different game.
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22:57:16 <coppro> As a Commander player, I've very glad for the exceptions for corner cases
22:58:30 <zzo38> Commander player? What does that mean?
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23:15:20 <newsham> /sbin/hashbang is called /usr/bin/env.
23:15:45 <pikhq_> newsham: env does not parse #!
23:17:06 <coppro> zzo38: I play commander
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23:43:08 * Sgeo ponders reversible CAs
23:44:05 * oerjan sAC elbisrever srednop
23:44:52 <quintopia> isnt there one that has really interesting patterns already?
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23:48:41 <oerjan> well there's the rule 30 1d automaton
23:49:11 <oerjan> i don't think that's _globally_ reversible
23:50:04 * Sgeo isn't sure of the difference, and just imagines that reversible CAs have conserved quantities that can be competed over.
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23:51:45 <oerjan> well i'm not even sure that's the right terminology
23:52:17 <oerjan> > showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit 30 ""
23:52:57 <oerjan> the infinite tapes ...000... and ...111... both map to ...000...
23:53:39 <oerjan> but changing any _bounded_ area will give a different result
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23:56:04 <oerjan> Sgeo: anyway, any CA has _one_ conserved quantity... total area size :P
23:56:17 <oerjan> (yeah that's very trivial)
23:56:47 <oerjan> (but say look-and-say sequences don't have that, since they expand)
23:57:06 <Sgeo> I can imagine a CA that doesn't.
23:57:25 <Sgeo> Make it a torus except along the seams an extra block of cells is placed there every 5 generations
23:57:38 <Sgeo> Although I guuess the "seams' are arbitrary
23:57:42 <oerjan> well, that wouldn't fit the definition of a CA
23:58:01 <zzo38> Is there a law that gift cards are not allowed to expire?