00:09:23 <pikhq_> Actually, gaaah undefined behavior.
00:09:30 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so who remembers when we tore into http://xkcd.com/881/ a while ago?
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00:19:53 <lambdabot> "okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokok...
00:23:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Ack, reading that log is slightly painful now. A conscience is a terrible burden to bear.
00:28:51 <oerjan> WELL CANCER IS PAINFUL YOU INSENSITIVE CLOD
00:29:41 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, Munroe's girlfriend was diagnosed with breast cancer some time before that comic was made, a fact which he has just disclosed.
00:30:16 <oerjan> what do you _think_ i was referring to...
00:31:53 * oerjan actually visits the xkcd blag infrequently, and just accidentally happened to read it this morning.
00:33:11 <Phantom_Hoover> I only happened across it by chance when I checked the comment history of that guy who made the test post that's currently the most-upvoted Reddit submission.
00:46:59 <zzo38> Can you figure out my game of pokemon cards?
00:51:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, it's a huge thread of replies that blossomed off some post.
00:52:12 <zzo38> (The first puzzle is the same as it was before; I added something to the HYPNO card that was supposed to be there but I omitted; it does not affect the puzzle)
00:52:26 <Phantom_Hoover> I've been traversing a single branch for quite a while now.
00:52:28 <zzo38> coppro: Correct, you can only play one energy card per turn. (Regardless of the kind)
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00:54:24 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, the test post?
00:54:36 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/6nz1k/got_six_weeks_try_the_hundred_push_ups_training/
00:54:56 <Phantom_Hoover> It only has 6000 or so comments, but I suspect they're almost all concentrated into the Epic Thread.
00:57:56 <Phantom_Hoover> FFS, it must have been half an hour by now, and I haven't even branched.
00:59:05 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/6nz1k/got_six_weeks_try_the_hundred_push_ups_training/c234inn is the current bottom.
01:00:11 <zzo38> coppro: Yes. Very good.
01:00:34 <Sgeo_> Eh? Did I accidentally ignore coppro?
01:00:47 <coppro> No, I have been pming zzo38 and he's been responding publicly
01:00:50 <zzo38> I would like you to try to make a puzzle too
01:00:54 <coppro> I pmed so as not to give the solution away
01:01:21 <zzo38> coppro: OK, do not give solution away is OK. However I like to post public so that other people can try it too
01:02:18 <zzo38> They are not only for you; even though it seems you are the only one who can answer it
01:02:25 <zzo38> Let someone else try please
01:02:29 <coppro> I'm the only one who's bothered, more like
01:02:54 <coppro> Of course, anyone else is free to try. Since I haven't given away the solution to the second one, the puzzle remains fun for everyone else.
01:03:02 <coppro> the first one, regrettably, is in the logs
01:03:37 <zzo38> coppro: Yes it is. It doesn't matter; whoever hasn't read it can try it please
01:05:13 <zzo38> We have a game it costs 1 point to play and you toss a coin until tails. Depending on number of heads: 0 -> 0, 1 -> 0, 2 -> 0, 3 -> 20, 4 -> 40, don't know the rest, 10 or more -> 0.
01:07:35 <zzo38> I should try to make some puzzle with IMAKUNI? card (where you have to maximize your chance of winning)
01:08:44 <zzo38> Can you try to make any puzzle at all?
01:09:00 <coppro> I am busy right now, unfortunately
01:09:13 <zzo38> OK, then maybe someone else
01:10:40 <oerjan> > sum $ zipWith (*) (iterate(/2)(1/2)) [0,0,0,20,40,80,160,320,640,1280]
01:11:00 <zzo38> How many people in here understand pokemon card?
01:11:18 <coppro> ais523 does, but he's not here
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01:17:38 <zzo38> ais523 last seen 17 hours ago (approx).
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01:18:21 <zzo38> I believe someone has posted something about Pokemon in esolang wiki once but I don't know if it means they would necessarily know how to play pokemon card
01:19:14 * Sgeo_ goes to play with yet another 3d world
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01:35:19 <olsner> meh! why was I highlighted? I wasn't even here :/
01:36:07 <olsner> and the one who highlighted me was elliott and he's not even here
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02:00:01 <olsner> saattana perkele, ei saa peittää parasta ennen voi vittu
02:00:30 <tswett> Sotala satana peittää.
02:02:00 <tswett> Suomi ei laskea irti ketti.
02:03:26 <olsner> quintopia: finnished, yes, finished, no. it's just gibberish afaik
02:05:13 <tswett> Mutinan sota oli vuonna 43 eaa.
02:05:37 <olsner> we should probably try to involve at least one of the finns
02:05:49 <olsner> e.g. fizzie or oklopol
02:06:10 <tswett> Anna minulle kylmä olut!
02:06:52 <tswett> Kuuma. Anna minulle kuuma olut!
02:08:36 <tswett> Perkele kuuma vittu oerjan:sta.
02:09:12 <olsner> I wonder if tswett actually knows finnish or if he's using google translate or something
02:09:59 <tswett> Käytän Wikisanakirja ja oma pieni tuntemus Suomen kieli, paitsi tämä lause, joka tuotti Google Translate.
02:10:14 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure tswett was trying to learn finnish earlier...
02:11:46 <Sgeo_> tswett : human languages :: Sgeo : programming languages?
02:11:47 <olsner> finnish would be cool to know, but not so sure about learning
02:12:06 <tswett> Sgeo_: I don't spend *that* much time learning human languages...
02:12:41 <tswett> English, Spanish, and French are the only languages I can read at all.
02:14:05 <olsner> at one point I might have to learn to read computer-swedish
02:14:24 <olsner> without having to reverse-translate it from (to) english
02:14:54 <tswett> What's computer-Swedish?
02:15:24 <olsner> it's the mangled incomprehensible form of swedish produced by people translating software
02:16:20 <tswett> People-translating software? TIL.
02:16:44 <olsner> people who are translating software then?
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02:17:57 <olsner> I probably want to create a swenglish locale where all technical terms are kept in english
02:18:56 <oerjan> Du måste reboota din computer.
02:19:25 <tswett> You must-a reboot-a da computer?
02:19:55 <oerjan> Din browser behöver restartas
02:20:20 <tswett> Da browser behoove-er restarts.
02:21:02 <monqy> "Your browser needs to erect RTAS" thanks google translate
02:21:27 <monqy> download a filling?
02:21:50 <olsner> oerjan: du måste reboota datorn, din brower behöver startas om, ladda ner filen (jämfört med t.ex. "Läs in filen")
02:22:18 <tswett> Da browser behoover starts. Om.
02:22:46 <olsner> tswett: close enough :)
02:23:01 <oerjan> olsner: i am not sure whether your improvements are still considered too swenglish or not :P
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02:23:25 <pikhq_> Bork bork bork da browser beborker starts. Bork.
02:23:26 <oerjan> ok i guess the parentheses give a hint
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02:23:46 <olsner> oerjan: they are swenglish, but not swedish enough to be incomprehensible :)
02:24:28 <oerjan> olsner: oh so making more words swedish would be worse?
02:25:16 <olsner> yep, inventing new swedish terms where 40 years of computing have used swenglish or english doesn't make anything more comprehensible
02:26:29 <olsner> at least not to me, because swedish is not a language I know any computer-related terms in
02:27:23 <olsner> "Swedish - Deprecated. Use English."
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02:33:08 <zzo38> Someone told me their computer keeps overheating because it is black. Do you think it would help if it was white?
02:33:29 <tswett> Black computers lose heat better than white computers.
02:33:59 <zzo38> Then it wouldn't help, I guess.
02:34:26 <oerjan> unless they are standing in the sun
02:34:26 <zzo38> I suggested using liquid cooling system but they don't know how to find that or install it or anything like that (I also don't know).
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02:37:15 <Sgeo_> I haven't been outside since yesterday
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02:38:38 <Lymee> http://pastebin.com/Y75WrP9D
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03:13:42 <quintopia> i am too lazy to compile and run it
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03:53:08 <zzo38> You can have all the fish
04:01:54 <zzo38> Please read this and tell me of your opinion/question. gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net:70/0phlog*c_prog.permission-script
04:05:43 <newsham> my opinion: gopher is dead.
04:06:33 <pikhq> newsham: Not while zzo38 still has life.
04:06:58 <pikhq> And, TBH, I can't say I blame him. Gopher is better designed than HTTP.
04:08:17 <pikhq> Especially in terms of the "No, fuck you, you are not a graphic designer you just suck and your eyes have probably been removed" factor.
04:14:13 <newsham> man, the list of things better designed than http could fill an internet
04:14:43 <pikhq> Though few things are both better-designed and intended for hypertext.
04:14:52 <pikhq> Due to few things being intended for hypertext. :P
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04:54:48 <zzo38> However, I was asking opinion of what the article is discussing, not about the protocol used to serve it.
04:55:59 <Gregor> zzo38: The underlying message here was "the work required to access that page in 2011 is greater than what we're willing to do to simply read something and give opinions"
04:56:33 <zzo38> Gregor: It is available over HTTP as well, although I have disabled sending comments using HTTP.
04:56:54 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/phlog/phlog_http.php?m=1&q=_prog.permission-script
04:57:28 <zzo38> And anyways you can access it using netcat without too much difficulty is it not?
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05:01:57 <WillMac> http://www.streamvera.com/stream/15997
05:03:46 <WillMac> my 2 songs are about to be played next
05:05:36 <WillMac> and Maps remix - by donato
05:08:01 <pikhq> Inquiry: why do we care?
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05:08:27 <WillMac> http://www.streamvera.com/stream/15997
05:13:10 <zzo38> Use HTTP if it is necessary.
05:38:46 <pikhq> Man, it's pretty great reading an old Slashdot thread about Linus dropping Bitkeeper.
05:39:19 <pikhq> "Why doesn't Linus just design from scratch a SCM that he likes? Bet it'd take him like 6 months." So very prescient.
05:40:27 <WillMac> am i wrong for liking dissociative hallucinogens?
05:40:57 <WillMac> i just cant seem to stop doing them
05:41:18 <WillMac> they seem to fill a hole in my being
05:41:29 <pikhq> I see little *moral* issue with recreational chemical usage.
05:41:39 <WillMac> i guess i just enjoy losing my ego
05:41:54 <WillMac> i practice eastern religion
05:41:55 <pikhq> Though the practical issues are, frankly, obvious.
05:42:21 <WillMac> and the dissociation really helps out with rituals
05:42:25 <pikhq> (certain ones having negative effects, certain ones having significant legal impediments, etc. etc. etc.)
05:42:45 <pikhq> zzo38: I summon thee.
05:42:55 <WillMac> when i require losing my train of thought
05:43:02 <WillMac> and entering a state of trance
05:43:17 <WillMac> Especially when charging sigils
05:43:34 <pikhq> One of these days, we're going to get someone wandering in here thinking this is a channel for esotericism but also being interested in programming.
05:44:03 <WillMac> so this isnt a channel for esotericism?
05:44:25 <pikhq> Channel for esoteric programming languages.
05:44:46 <pikhq> Yeaaah, if we knew where to refer you, we'd let you know. :P
05:45:11 <WillMac> i honestly thought this was a channel for esotericism
05:45:29 <pikhq> Yeah, every now and then we do get someone coming in thinking that.
05:45:36 <pikhq> Kinda amusing, really.
05:45:48 <WillMac> Well its hard to find places
05:46:23 <WillMac> "THERES NO SUCH THING AS THE DIVINE"
05:47:18 <pikhq> Seriously, no real issue.
05:48:41 <WillMac> <-- dissociated emotional bi-sexual
05:48:53 <zzo38> pikhq: You summon me for what purpose?
05:49:05 <pikhq> zzo38: Your zzo38ness.
05:49:13 <pikhq> zzo38: I know not what else to describe it as.
05:49:59 <zzo38> OK, I think I understand. However, how can I answer you if there is not a question?
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08:39:02 <coppro> oh hey, it's linked in the bug :D
08:39:22 <coppro> http://funroll-loops.info/ is correct
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16:26:59 <zzo38> What musical scale do these numbers represent? 16 18 20 21 24 27 30 32
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16:34:18 <zzo38> Hint these are not numbers of semitones
16:37:12 <quintopia> are they multiples of a particular frequency?
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16:40:56 <zzo38> Silly? Are you sure?
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17:02:25 * Phantom_Hoover concludes, after much testing, that Minecraft is not a world amenable to the scientific method.
17:09:28 <quintopia> it is amenable to reverse engineering!
17:09:53 <zzo38> And I think ZZT is a world amenable to the scientific method.
17:12:56 <zzo38> Do strange thing, see what happens, make hypothesis, make up an experiment to test hypothesis, test it, see result, remember that ZZT is written in Pascal, think of the program to cause that to happen, look in memory dump, think about more.
17:13:38 <zzo38> I have figured out a lot of stuff about ZZT using this method, however I have not documented any of it.
17:15:32 <Sgeo__> What worlds aren't amenable to the scientific method?
17:15:39 <Sgeo__> Minecraft may be ... difficult, but
17:15:56 <Sgeo__> Hmm, perhaps a one where the rules vary by time and never repeat
17:16:42 <zzo38> Sgeo__: What about meta-rules, then?
17:17:16 <Sgeo__> Maybe all rules at all levels change by the progress of time, a bit like a nomic
17:17:36 <Sgeo__> Rules can specify how the rules will change, including how the rules will change
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17:21:38 <quintopia> it's still predictable in some sense, if you know all the rules, but that definitely defines a complex world
17:22:08 <quintopia> a world not amenable to the scientific method: the real world, as applies to major historical events and social networks
17:22:33 <quintopia> how the hell can you have reproducability if things never play out the same twice?
17:22:56 <Sgeo__> Predictable if you know all the rules, but is there any way to, from the inside, even approach determining the rules?
17:23:13 <Sgeo__> Since, yeah, reproducibility
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19:24:47 <quintopia> a painter would say life is paintbrush
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19:34:15 <cheater_> anyone know what glyph this is? ❡
19:34:35 <Deewiant> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/2761/index.htm
19:35:24 <zzo38> Hay you stop cheating please.
19:41:56 <tswett> cheater_: it appears to be U+2761 CURVED STEM PARAGRAPH SIGN ORNAMENT (❡).
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19:56:21 <Vorpal> <quintopia> a painter would say life is paintbrush
19:56:29 <Vorpal> quintopia, no it is the paint stripper
19:57:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, how so?
19:58:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, there is a bit of randomness in there too, you might not get that job you wanted
19:58:25 <Vorpal> interesting analogy however
19:58:43 <oerjan> 16 18 20 21 24 27 30 32
20:00:00 <oerjan> > map (logBase 2/12*) [16,18,20,21,24,27,30,32]
20:00:01 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (t -> t)
20:00:53 <oerjan> > map ((/12).logBase 2) [16,18,20,21,24,27,30,32]
20:00:55 <lambdabot> [0.3333333333333333,0.3474937501201927,0.3601606745739469,0.366026451898230...
20:01:59 <oerjan> > join(zipWith(-)) $ map ((/12).logBase 2) [16,18,20,21,24,27,30,32] :: [Float]
20:02:12 <oerjan> > join(zipWith(-).tail) $ map ((/12).logBase 2) [16,18,20,21,24,27,30,32] :: [Float]
20:02:13 <lambdabot> [1.41604245e-2,1.2666911e-2,5.8658123e-3,1.6053706e-2,1.41604245e-2,1.26669...
20:04:02 <oerjan> lambdabot's short lines make floating point lists awkward :(
20:05:26 <oerjan> hm i wonder if lambdabot has channel-based option lists (it does give longer lines in private messages)
20:08:10 -!- elliott has joined.
20:09:23 <Deewiant> > map(printf "%.3f").join(zipWith(-).tail) $ map ((/12).logBase 2) [16,18,20,21,24,27,30,32] :: [String]
20:09:25 <lambdabot> ["0.014","0.013","0.006","0.016","0.014","0.013","0.008"]
20:09:34 <oerjan> > map(2^)[4, 4+1/7 .. 5]
20:09:35 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `a' in the constraints:
20:09:47 <oerjan> > map(2**)[4, 4+1/7 .. 5]
20:09:48 <lambdabot> [16.0,17.665432218781003,19.504218467271617,21.534403082117716,23.775908626...
20:10:16 <oerjan> > map(printf "%.3f".(2**))[4, 4+1/7 .. 5]
20:10:17 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `b' in the constraints:
20:10:22 <oerjan> > map(printf "%.3f".(2**))[4, 4+1/7 .. 5]::[String]
20:10:23 <lambdabot> ["16.000","17.665","19.504","21.534","23.776","26.251","28.983","32.000"]
20:11:13 <oerjan> hm it is _not_ simply rounding of an ordinary scale
20:11:43 <oerjan> elliott: zzo38 has presented a scale conundrum
20:14:21 <quintopia> oerjan: he already said they weren't semitones :P
20:14:53 <quintopia> i tend to read more than what he says into everything he says though
20:15:00 <oerjan> quintopia: um i took that to mean that 16 and 18 weren't separated by 3 semitones, etc.
20:18:31 <oerjan> > map(printf "%.3f".(2**).(4+).(1/12*))[0,2,4,5,7,9,11,12]
20:18:31 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `b' in the constraints:
20:18:40 <oerjan> > map(printf "%.3f".(2**).(4+).(1/12*))[0,2,4,5,7,9,11,12]::[String]
20:18:42 <lambdabot> ["16.000","17.959","20.159","21.357","23.973","26.909","30.204","32.000"]
20:19:21 <oerjan> zzo38: ok rounding _that_ fits your numbers
20:19:23 <zzo38> That is an ordinary equal temperament scale now. What you had before obviously isn't, I think
20:19:43 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes it does fit.
20:19:52 <oerjan> zzo38: i somehow divided it in 7 while completely forgetting about semitones :P
20:21:32 <zzo38> Or you could say it is a 16-to-32 linear temperament based major scale.
20:22:28 <zzo38> Just now I programmed my computer to play a seven-tone equal temperament scale so I can know its sound.
20:23:04 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Tone'
20:23:35 <oerjan> <Sgeo__> What worlds aren't amenable to the scientific method? <-- worlds that explicitly consider sentient beings and try to fool them
20:23:41 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Interval'
20:24:00 <quintopia> zzo38: do you know the song Tombeau de Messiaen?
20:24:01 <elliott> oerjan: is this your objection to the scientific method? :D
20:24:08 <zzo38> quintopia: No. I don't know that.
20:24:45 <quintopia> zzo38: it is a piece for piano and tape. the piano is equal-tempered, and the tape is the same key but in just intonation
20:25:01 <oerjan> elliott: it's a possible objection to any presumed infallibility of it
20:25:15 <zzo38> So does it play equal-temperament and just-intonation simultaneously?
20:26:05 <elliott> GOOD THINGS TO SAY ON PUBLICLY-LOGGED IRC CHANNELS AND, ALSO, TO THINK IN THE FIRST PLACE: hmm, we need to start giving randall's relatives cancer so he starts making good strips again like those five-minute ones
20:26:32 <oerjan> elliott: hey, great artists need to suffer!
20:26:45 <quintopia> he has made a couple good ones since then
20:26:46 <oerjan> (remind me never to become a great artist)
20:26:49 <monqy> will we get more cancer strips too
20:26:57 <monqy> where we means people who read xkcd
20:27:23 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> GOOD THINGS TO SAY ON PUBLICLY-LOGGED IRC CHANNELS AND, ALSO, TO THINK IN THE FIRST PLACE: hmm, we need to start giving randall's relatives cancer so he starts making good strips again like those five-minute ones
20:27:44 <Phantom_Hoover> The 5-minute ones were made some unspecified time before they were released.
20:28:02 <elliott> Cancer: Not a miracle cure?
20:29:08 <oerjan> there ain't no cure, there ain't no cure, there ain't no cure for running out of ideas
20:29:25 <newsham> whats the half life of xkcd?
20:31:26 <elliott> "This is mostly because I'm hardware/semiconductor guy intimately familiar with current microprocessor and processing technology plus what's in the pipeline for the next 10-20 years - there are fundamental physics reasons why it probably can't."
20:31:30 <elliott> Orthogonal persistence: PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE
20:31:55 <Phantom_Hoover> I cannot imagine what confusion of ideas would provoke such a statement.
20:32:15 <oerjan> now hardware orthogonal persistence would be something
20:32:29 <elliott> (They weren't actually saying that.)
20:32:33 <elliott> oerjan: that's just having non-volatile RAM
20:33:23 <tswett> elliott: I think you need to provide context. His statement is perfectly reasonable of by "it probably can't", he means "microprocessors probably can't solve the halting problem".
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20:33:58 <elliott> tswett: I provided "context" with the next line, but that's actually not really what he was saying at all, it's just funny to read it that way :P
20:34:04 <elliott> (The subject was single-address-space systems.)
20:36:51 <Phantom_Hoover> tswett, aren't you, on some level, fundamentally, platonically, Australian?
20:39:57 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: also filled with hope
21:05:36 <elliott> oerjan: what precedence does (::) have?
21:06:06 <oerjan> it's not an operator, so somewhere <= -1 :P
21:06:43 <elliott> oerjan: I'm just wondering how to write my Show instance :)
21:07:08 <elliott> I guess unconditional showParen
21:07:12 <elliott> but I don't want any parens shown at the top level
21:07:19 <elliott> What's the showParen precedence given for a top level show?
21:07:46 <lambdabot> Source not found. stty: unknown mode: doofus
21:07:46 <elliott> showsPrec d x = showParen (d > 0) $ showString "renat :: " . showType x
21:08:12 <elliott> -- | equivalent to 'showsPrec' with a precedence of 0.
21:08:12 <elliott> shows :: (Show a) => a -> ShowS
21:08:13 <oerjan> elliott: except that theoretically that would break for $
21:08:23 <elliott> can't have it every way :P
21:09:28 <oerjan> which actually means showsPrec is flawed even for just 0-9, hm
21:10:10 <oerjan> because if you mix infixr with infixl or infix of the same level, it cannot distinguish that they are not allowed
21:21:19 <elliott> we have a template for that
21:21:42 <elliott> he's just <strike>ing them
21:21:47 <elliott> which is plain confusing to read, to boot
21:22:09 <oerjan> ah yes. and harder to search for, obviously.
21:22:24 <elliott> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:Deadlink
21:22:33 <elliott> although obviously very incomplete
21:23:56 <elliott> oerjan: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Computational_class#Isomorphism
21:23:58 <elliott> oerjan: Shall I rename? :-)
21:24:39 <monqy> either that or someone obsessed with madk and his languages
21:25:08 <elliott> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Computational_class#Reduction
21:25:15 <elliott> renamed (and added a note)
21:33:43 <elliott> oh WillMac looks like an idiot
21:33:53 <elliott> too bad he's offline, i'd antagonise him
21:34:41 <elliott> 05:40:27: <WillMac> am i wrong for liking dissociative hallucinogens?
21:34:42 <elliott> YES YOU ARE A TERRIBLE PERSON
21:34:45 <elliott> Man what is this guy even doing
21:34:51 <elliott> 05:41:39: <WillMac> i guess i just enjoy losing my ego
21:34:51 <elliott> 05:41:54: <WillMac> i practice eastern religion
21:34:55 <elliott> 05:42:10: <WillMac> and crowleyan magick
21:35:00 <elliott> this is the best thing ever
21:35:06 <elliott> oerjan: he is the perfect stumbler
21:35:13 <monqy> what about the guy who thought this was a hiphop channel
21:35:19 <monqy> also the perfect stumbler
21:35:28 <elliott> 05:01:52: -!- WillMac has joined #esoteric.
21:35:29 <elliott> [...]05:44:03: <WillMac> so this isnt a channel for esotericism?
21:35:33 <elliott> almost a whole fucking hour
21:35:58 <elliott> monqy: how long did hiphop guy take
21:36:10 <elliott> 05:45:48: <WillMac> Well its hard to find places
21:36:10 <elliott> 05:45:52: <WillMac> that are accepting of it
21:36:10 <elliott> 05:46:05: <WillMac> "GET THE FUCK OUT HIPPY"
21:36:10 <elliott> 05:46:12: <WillMac> "YOURE SCHIZO"
21:36:10 <elliott> 05:46:23: <WillMac> "THERES NO SUCH THING AS THE DIVINE"
21:36:12 <monqy> I wasn't around for it I only read the logs too :(
21:36:16 <monqy> but the logs were pretty long
21:36:21 <elliott> i reject options one and two and pick option three
21:36:51 <elliott> 05:48:41: <WillMac> <-- dissociated emotional bi-sexual
21:36:51 <elliott> wait does this mean that the <3s he was handing out represented true love
21:37:31 <elliott> 08:33:27: <Phantom_Hoover> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35890
21:37:31 <elliott> 08:33:40: <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps the best bug ever?
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21:38:01 <oerjan> <elliott> almost a whole fucking hour <-- well there weren't a lot of other people talking then
21:38:02 <elliott> https://bugs.gentoo.org/attachment.cgi?id=68484 <-- this is definitely the best bit, I'd have loved to see gentoo remove gaim
21:38:16 <elliott> "this is too funny, you've taken the crown of being the biggest jack ass I've
21:38:16 <elliott> seen this year. well done, I think." --a gentoo developer
21:38:26 <elliott> Gentoo developers calling people jackasses: great
21:38:26 <monqy> it was a slow almost a fucking hour
21:38:37 <monqy> it was a slow almost a whole fucking hour
21:38:41 <elliott> "This has to be worst initial contact I think anybody could have made.
21:38:41 <elliott> Not sure I expect much more out of somebody that codes for AOL software."
21:38:46 <elliott> gaim is a tool of the aols
21:38:53 <elliott> ""Lindows.com, a proud gaim supporter!" <- this could explain"
21:39:00 <elliott> i forgot how amazing this is
21:39:24 <elliott> "This is blasphemy, and just proves there are people with way to much time on
21:39:25 <elliott> their hands. If you got a problem, don't bitch on bugzilla, we have better
21:39:25 <elliott> things to do then listen to your incessant whining."
21:39:27 <oerjan> <elliott> i reject options one and two and pick option three <-- darn, i was hoping you'd get slightly bad conscience
21:39:31 <elliott> that was before the sparta meme
21:39:36 <elliott> this guy is actually calling it blasphemy
21:40:15 <elliott> oerjan: I'm all for people who actually believe in that stuff to have somewhere to discuss said nonsense, and I don't think they're idiots, bad people, or insane, but there is no such thing as the divine :P
21:40:55 <elliott> I also don't think that #esoteric has any responsibility to support discussion of such things, since most of us don't care
21:41:06 <elliott> I wouldn't fault someone who believed in esoterica discussing esolangs and general crap in here
21:41:21 <elliott> but I doubt anyone who comes in discussing esoterica would actually be an expert #esoteric
21:41:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=124595 this is a slightly less best bug report, but one that shows how shitty gentoo devs are
21:42:03 <elliott> "> The package is still useless. The ebuilds in the other
21:42:03 <elliott> Why not submit a fixed one?"
21:42:04 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
21:42:14 <elliott> i thought bugzilla existed to stop people responding to every request with PATCHES
21:42:50 <elliott> 17:02:25: * Phantom_Hoover concludes, after much testing, that Minecraft is not a world amenable to the scientific method.
21:44:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I built *exactly the same* device in three different places.
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21:57:15 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: hey that's just lack of position symmetry, nothing unscientific about that >:)
21:57:47 <elliott> Kind of makes peer review difficult.
21:59:28 <elliott> showSpace = {-showChar ' '-} \ xs -> ' ' : xs
22:05:24 <oerjan> i wonder if (guess that?) ghc will inline showChar ' ' completely so it doesn't actually make a difference...
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22:41:52 <elliott> I have no idea what a bijective functor is, unless it is a band name or something. – Stephen Cagle yesterday
22:42:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'm forming a band do you want to join.
22:42:35 <oerjan> Curry Howard and the bijective functors
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22:44:17 <Sgeo> Under what conditions might a turing-complete language not have a quine?
22:45:00 <Sgeo> But I think it's more broad then that, I'm curious as to the exact limit
22:45:12 <Phantom_Hoover> If its IO is incompatible with the format it's encoded in?
22:45:32 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: You would then make up a new kind of quine if that is the case, I think.
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22:45:43 <zzo38> However, you are correct anyways.
22:45:55 <Sgeo> What's that language that if it doesn't start with ', is some IO-less language, and if it starts with ', just prints stuff after '?
22:46:28 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes, then it is turing-complete and I/O, but it doesn't have turing-complete I/O.
22:46:29 <elliott> Sgeo: It's the output equivalent of arbitrary effect at an arbitrary point
22:46:33 <elliott> There's a formal definition for quines, but I've forgotten
22:47:03 <zzo38> Now you have to invent the term "Turing-complete I/O".
22:47:09 <oerjan> Sgeo: see our old discussion at http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:Smjg
22:47:12 <elliott> "Any programming language which is Turing complete, and which is able to output any string (by a computable function of the string as program — this is a technical condition that is satisfied in every programming language in existence) has a quine program (and, in fact, infinitely many quine programs, and many similar curiosities) as follows by the fixed-point theorem." ;; meh, David Madore gets it wrong
22:47:18 <elliott> Or, well, he uses "output any string" for "IO-complete"
22:47:31 <elliott> I don't even know if anyone has a complete formal definition of that
22:47:39 <Sgeo> "every programming language in existence"
22:47:39 <elliott> Maybe it's one of CS' Great Unknown Unsolved Problems :)
22:48:11 <zzo38> And then also the other term "Compatible I/O", which means it can input/output a program in the same programming language.
22:48:20 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. half the solution is defining what the problem actually was?
22:50:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Most likely.
22:51:55 <zzo38> If the programming language has all three features "Turing-complete", "Turing-complete I/O", "Compatible I/O", then figure out the conditions for making quine, narcissism, self-interpreter, etc
22:54:03 <quintopia> we have already had this discussion here elliott
22:54:26 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
22:54:57 <elliott> quintopia: We've had every discussion here.
22:55:01 <elliott> But until they're resolved...
22:55:18 <elliott> zzo38: I still want the esoteric wiki to have a project to formally define a bunch of stuff that nobody's actually pinned down yet :)
22:55:22 <elliott> Including Turing-completeness itself.
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22:56:40 <zzo38> elliott: Yes I would also want the wiki to have that stuff
22:57:08 <quintopia> isn't turing-completeness pretty much defined as "capable of representing any computable number"?
22:57:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: See 2,3 Turing machine, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Befunge/index.php
22:58:02 <quintopia> i don't think the field's ever gonna agree
22:58:09 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, that's on a different level of definition, I think.
22:58:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://esolangs.org/wiki/%E2%84%92
22:58:22 <quintopia> well-defined: the 2,3 turing machine plus the initializing program is a turing-complete system
22:58:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That's just a way of ignoring that there's no clear definition.
22:58:44 <elliott> See http://esolangs.org/wiki/%E2%84%92 too.
22:59:51 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well, OK, but the problem isn't really that it's *ill* defined, just that there are two definitions in common use that happen to coincide most of the time.
23:00:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but those definitions themselves aren't clear; see 2,3.
23:01:05 <quintopia> elliott: i think it's agreed as to what it means for a computational system, from the atomic level upward, to be TC. on the other hand, it may be meaningless to say that a particular /language/ is TC in that same sense. the latter is the one missing a definition.
23:01:23 <oerjan> TCness is afaict perfectly well defined for the subset of systems where input and output have a reasonable finite encoding (e.g. as strings of symbols over a finite alphabet)
23:01:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It requires a sub-Turing machine to produce its initial input.
23:01:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Which is infinite, and non-repeating.
23:02:08 <elliott> There are ways to construct a system whereby two Turing-incomplete machines can be plugged into one another and produce a Turing-complete system, so it's not clear that the 2,3 machine itself has been proved TC.
23:02:20 <elliott> At the same time, the system that generates the initial input can be /really/ low-powered.
23:02:27 <elliott> The 2,3 machine does basically all the "work".
23:05:54 <quintopia> we know what set of problems a TC machine can solve. that is well-defined. and so, "the set of systems capable of solving those problems" is also well-defined
23:06:10 <quintopia> we just don't know how to determine the members of that class
23:06:30 <oerjan> quintopia: actually i'd say the word "system" is the major vague one there
23:07:00 <oerjan> because we are talking about inventions limited only by creativity
23:07:04 <quintopia> if we had a definition of that, we'd surely be able to say "this is in the class, and that isn't"
23:07:30 <quintopia> we know what they have to be able to do. we just don't know what they are.
23:07:38 <oerjan> the 2,3-machine being one way to escape the simple case of languages over strings (for which everything is completely well-defined)
23:08:09 <elliott> itos :: Int# -> String -> String
23:08:09 <elliott> let !(I# minInt#) = minInt in
23:08:10 <elliott> -- negateInt# minInt overflows, so we can't do that:
23:08:12 <elliott> then '-' : itos' (negateInt# (n# `quotInt#` 10#))
23:08:14 <elliott> (itos' (negateInt# (n# `remInt#` 10#)) cs)
23:08:16 <elliott> else '-' : itos' (negateInt# n#) cs
23:08:22 <elliott> itos' :: Int# -> String -> String
23:08:26 <elliott> | x# <# 10# = C# (chr# (ord# '0'# +# x#)) : cs'
23:08:30 <elliott> | otherwise = case chr# (ord# '0'# +# (x# `remInt#` 10#)) of { c# ->
23:08:30 <zzo38> Yes, these are one kind of category of esolang, which is, ones dealing with computational classes in some new way
23:08:32 <elliott> itos' (x# `quotInt#` 10#) (C# c# : cs') }
23:10:04 <zzo38> I have also discussed in here before, what might be the computational class and other stuff about BlooP+REDPROGRAM or FlooP+REDPROGRAM (what BlooP, FlooP, GlooP, REDPROGRAM, means, is described in Hofstadter's book)
23:10:20 <oerjan> elliott: that's some special case on minint :P
23:11:18 <zzo38> Also see [[Oozlybub and Murphy]].
23:11:39 <oerjan> zzo38: banana scheme and brainhype too
23:11:56 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, those too.
23:12:35 <elliott> *Main> re :: Re (Z :- S Z :- S (S Z) :- Nil)
23:12:35 <elliott> ReZ ::- (ReS ReZ ::- (ReS (ReS ReZ) ::- ReNil))
23:12:35 <elliott> *Main> re :: Re (Z :- S Z :- S (S Z) :- True :- Nil)
23:12:35 <elliott> Couldn't match type `TBool' with `TNat'
23:12:43 * oerjan realizes itos prime would be a nice scifi name
23:12:56 <elliott> Itos Prime and the Curry Howardly Bijective Functors
23:14:05 <elliott> *Main> :t typeOf (re :: Re Nil)
23:14:05 <elliott> typeOf (re :: Re Nil) :: Nope (TList a)
23:14:05 <elliott> *Main> :t typeOf (re :: Re (True :- Nil))
23:14:05 <elliott> typeOf (re :: Re (True :- Nil)) :: Nope (TList TBool)
23:14:26 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: or possibly a planet. wait, a sentient planet.
23:15:49 <quintopia> oerjan: one camp is always going to say "if you take away this part, then what's left can't do the things a TC system should, therefore, what's left is not TC." other people are always gonna say "But what's left is the part doing all the real work!" It's same thing with the two register minsky machine. it's only TC if you are willing to allow unusual encoding of input.
23:16:44 * Sgeo manages to only embarrass himself in two non-here channels
23:16:54 <oerjan> quintopia: um as i said, the TCness of languages of strings is the baseline. and that includes minsky machines by simple encoding.
23:17:42 <zzo38> quintopia: Which says not only unclearness of TC, but also that TC is not necessarily sufficient.
23:18:18 <quintopia> oerjan: it's only a metaphor. the fact that you need a separate system to encode your input to the minsky tarpit, and would not be able to make a UTM in it without that
23:18:55 <oerjan> quintopia: the separation of input from program is an unnecessary complication >:)
23:18:57 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, what?
23:19:10 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I'm talking about a single event, where I didn't ask my stupid question in here
23:19:18 <elliott> <oerjan> quintopia: the separation of input from program is an unnecessary complication >:)
23:19:22 <elliott> tempted to paste this to my non-programmer friend
23:19:27 <elliott> "Here's your OS IT ONLY DOES ONE THING."
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23:22:11 <zzo38> The SQLite C interface includes three-star pointers for some functions.
23:22:12 <oerjan> MWAHAHAHA WE KNOW HIS REAL HOST
23:22:48 <zzo38> oerjan: Does it matter?
23:23:30 <oerjan> zzo38: not really, but it makes cloaks seem relatively useless when people do that mistake all the time
23:24:07 <oerjan> of course maybe he's just having a cloak for esthetic reasons.
23:24:29 <zzo38> oerjan: Then why do people do that mistake all the time? I don't have a cloak but still have never made such a mistake.
23:24:49 <zzo38> Can't you learn better?
23:25:41 <oerjan> zzo38: well the mistake only happens because of the cloak, so obviously you won't have done it
23:27:03 <zzo38> Still, I can see when the login is recognized. Is that what causes it?
23:27:59 <oerjan> that's when the cloak will be added
23:28:16 <zzo38> Then probably it is synchronizing problem?
23:29:38 <zzo38> Tell them, that, if you want cloak you should check if the login is recognized before sending the JOIN command.
23:30:28 <zzo38> (I have actually asked for a cloak, but the one I asked for is not one their software supports, I think. Or something like that.)
23:33:42 <zzo38> (What I asked is that if the computer I am connecting from is named "zzo38computer.cjb.net", that the cloak is also set to that name. They were unable to do that.)
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