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01:13:59 <oerjan> <CakeProphet> the idea of having two different identites intrigues me.
01:14:40 <oerjan> sadly if there is _both_ a left and a right identity, they have to be the same. (because l = l `op` r = r)
01:15:03 <oerjan> but you can have something that is just one of them, say 0 is just a right identity for (-)
01:15:41 <oerjan> and more intriguingly, if you _do_ have just one side, i think you can have more than one identity
01:17:14 <oerjan> actually that is pretty obvious
01:18:07 <oerjan> > let x `op` y = if x < 0 then y else -y in ((-2) `op` y, (-1) `op` y)
01:34:20 <Sgeo_> http://www.reddit.com/r/homestuck/comments/ihleb/so_im_doing_the_writing_for_a_midnight_crew_based/ how does this have -2 downvotes?
01:43:54 <pikhq_> Upvote/downvote numbers are meaningless.
01:45:12 <oerjan> you'd think they'd keep the fudging within the natural numbers, though
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02:18:14 <oerjan> fortunately he left before anyone got him angry
02:25:53 <Sgeo_> Why does the e-reader I want cost $330?
02:36:27 <Sgeo_> Wikipedia now automatically uses WOT
02:37:23 <Sgeo_> Someone actually manually inserted WOT stuff http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Reflexology&action=edit
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04:49:06 <oklopol> "<pikhq_> I haven't a clue what best to do right now." <<< ignore
04:50:46 <oklopol> "<oerjan> and more intriguingly, if you _do_ have just one side, i think you can have more than one identity" <<< a op b = a
04:52:21 <oklopol> i think i characterized the CA generated by idempotents
04:52:38 <oklopol> although the characterization is a bit complicated
04:53:06 <oklopol> the CA generated by involutions (a^2 = 1) are a famous open problem
04:53:37 <oklopol> erm sorry the CA generated by periodic CA (a^n = 1 for some n) are a famous open problem
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04:54:55 <oklopol> the conjecture is they essentially generate all reversible CA, although there are some restrictions on information flow and you can't do shifts for instance
04:56:45 <oklopol> YOU'LL FIND THE DETAILS IN MY PHD THESIS
04:58:01 <oklopol> an idempotent CA is kind of like a strong deformation retract of the full shift to an SFT
04:58:23 <oerjan> um idempotent just means everything becomes a still life after one generation, no?
04:59:27 <oklopol> i'd say it "just" means G^2 = G
05:00:04 <oerjan> a^n = 1 is to hold globally at all points for a fixed n?
05:00:17 <oklopol> yeah 1 is the identity map
05:00:30 <oklopol> nono a^n = 1 means a^n is identity
05:00:31 <oerjan> so the conjecture means that every reversible CA has a finite period...
05:00:52 <oerjan> um that's how i read what you wrote
05:01:02 <oklopol> they don't, so let me see what i wrote
05:01:06 <oerjan> or what do you mean by generate
05:01:16 <oklopol> no they GENERATE the reversible CA
05:01:41 <oklopol> but as i said there are restrictions, and i don't know what they are exactly
05:01:54 <oklopol> but it is known they do not in fact generate all reversible CA, particularly the shift
05:02:03 <oerjan> ah. so a_1^n = a_2^n = ... = a_k^n = 1 and then a_1 a_2 ... a_k is an almost general reversible CA
05:03:51 <oklopol> and i think i have a kind of proof for forall i: a_i^2 = a^i and then a_1 a_2 ... a_k is is an almost general CA G which has the property that forall n: (if G(U_n) = U_n then G|U_n = 1|U_n) where U_n is the set of points with least period n
05:04:18 <oklopol> to use your way of expressing things
05:05:11 <oklopol> it is easy to see that that must hold for all CA generated by idempotents
05:05:17 <oklopol> and i believe it's sufficient
05:06:06 <oklopol> for certain values of easy
05:06:29 <oklopol> yeah i suppose it's kind of easy
05:07:12 <HackEgo> 100) <Slereah> I can do everything a Turing machine can do, except love \ 146) <coppro> we'd care about a turing-complete pencil \ 274) <oklopol> ah yes, indeed, alan turing was gay and stupid \ 468) <oerjan> i never meta turing. he died before i was born. \ 469) <elliott> oerjan: can you delete that and the meta turing
05:07:55 <HackEgo> 333) <Phantom_Hoover> Oh god. <Phantom_Hoover> I've become a metallurgy hipster. <Phantom_Hoover> Iridium is way too mainstream. \ 410) <Sgeo> I was more of a pervert in Metaplace than Utherverse <Sgeo> I invented Metaplace sex >.> \ 468) <oerjan> i never meta turing. he died before i was born. \ 469) <elliott> oerjan:
05:09:46 <oklopol> oerjan: do you see why they have that property? i'd love to explain you see but i'm wondering if you want to do it yourself. i mean i know how much you love math.
05:10:06 <oklopol> oh and Sgeo_ wanted to learn math, this would actually be a fun exercise
05:11:14 * oklopol desperately tries to find math buddies, then realizes there will be ppl at the uni soon and he could just go there
05:12:05 <oerjan> i do not think my brain is sufficiently awake for that much math now.
05:12:28 * Sgeo_ needs to be both: Much more awake, and made familiar with what a^2 means in the context of a CA
05:12:40 <oklopol> Sgeo_: a \circ a, first do a, then do a again
05:12:59 <oerjan> in fact i somewhat fear my brain may never be that awake again
05:13:06 <Sgeo_> a^2=a is same thing as idempotent
05:13:13 <oklopol> Sgeo_: that's the definition
05:13:25 <oklopol> a * a = a means a is an idempotent w.r.t. *
05:14:07 <oklopol> oerjan: speaking of brains being awake, have you heard of a topology for all CA or in general a topology for the set of dynamics commuting endomorphisms of a dynamical system?
05:14:44 <oklopol> because i came up with a fun topology using a dynamics invariant measures and we found some fun properties for it like composition being continuous in certain cases and inverse as well
05:15:58 <oklopol> i don't know why you'd want a measure for it, but since we got results it felt natural to assume someone else did that stuff already, much better
05:16:08 <oklopol> *why you'd want a topology
05:19:25 <oklopol> also it turned out that in the CA case the metric is just the integral over S^Z of d(a(x), b(x)) where d is the besicovitch measure, a fact directly given by birkhoff's ergodic theorem
05:19:55 <oklopol> besicovitch distance i mean
05:20:21 <oklopol> i guess one could ask what the fuck the besicovitch distance is
05:21:47 <oklopol> d(x, y) is the lim sup as n goes to infinity of H(Z_n(x), Z_n(y))/(2n + 1) where H is the hamming distance and Z_n(x) is the word of length 2n + 1 in the middle of x
05:22:42 <oklopol> the original motivation of the besicovitch distance is of course that the shift - the most natural thing in the world - is completely chaotic with the usual topology
05:22:54 <oklopol> but it preserves the besicovitch metric
05:23:56 <oklopol> also with the besicovitch topology, S^Z is path connected, which is not very hard to believe, and which i've actually proven here once upon a time
05:24:17 <oklopol> because you can gradually flip all the bits of x to those of y...
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06:43:36 <pikhq_> http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+45%3A7&version=KJV
06:43:53 <pikhq_> That really seems to screw with "God is good".
06:44:09 <pikhq_> Unless God is in a superposition of states.
06:47:57 <coppro> gotta remember that one
06:48:22 <monqy> superposition sounds a lot cleaner than inconsistent or self-contradictory
06:50:22 <fizzie> "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God" (Exodus 34:14) -- yeah, well, if his *name* is "Jealous", ...
06:50:46 <coppro> Any artist does knows that you have to include contrast
06:52:32 <monqy> mental disorder makes for great art
06:54:08 <pikhq_> Also great atrocities.
07:06:59 <olsner> "<pikhq_> Unless God is in a superposition of states." I think he's in all the 50 states, but if he's a probability function his density would likely be larger in the bible belt
07:10:57 <fizzie> Isn't this some sort of a cue to a "they certainly are dense there, eh-he-eh" pun?
07:16:05 <pikhq_> Oh, Internet. Why did you have to connect me with a solipsist?
07:16:45 <pikhq_> And why would a solipsist even want to argue?
07:18:21 <pikhq_> Someone who thinks reality does not exist.
07:18:32 <oerjan> don't worry about solipsists, they're just a figment of your imagination anyway
07:18:45 <pikhq_> No, a figment of their own imagination.
07:24:32 <olsner> hmm, but if everyone is a figment of the same imagination, that should be the same as actually existing
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07:24:57 <pikhq_> Well, it's certainly indistinguishable.
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08:57:03 <oklofok> so i wonder if there's a support group for people in love with schizophrenic girls who keep telling you they have feelings for you but you're so good at everything you do they'd just feel like shit about themselves 24/7 if they dated you, and who will probably die soon enough anyway
08:57:47 <oklofok> it's prolly a pretty common problem, i should check the bulleting board downstairs
08:58:43 <oklofok> also sorry about being all Sgeo there :D
08:58:53 <coppro> that's not quite my problem
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10:21:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I typed 'cephalopod' into Google, and the two suggestions were 'intelligence' and 'pronunciation'.
10:26:53 <Phantom_Hoover> "Some cephalopods are able to fly distances up to 50 m."
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10:41:41 <Lymee> Phantom_Hoover, TNT assisted flight?
10:42:46 <Phantom_Hoover> It was all over /r/Minecraft, although I never saw it myself.
10:45:53 <fALSO> i never understood minecraft
10:46:06 <fALSO> and why people pay for a game that looks like its been made in 1985
10:47:13 <fALSO> and whats all the hype about
10:49:03 <Phantom_Hoover> fALSO, please understand that saying that Minecraft "looks like it's been made in 1985" just marks you out as an idiot.
10:49:33 <Lymee> fALSO, no, that's Dwarf Fortress...
10:49:36 <Lymee> which is much more fun than Minecraft
10:50:27 <Lymee> Ordering around random giant things then waiting for it to finish while tabbed into IRC or something.
10:51:01 <Phantom_Hoover> If you take 'fun' to be as it is in the adage "losing is fun", then yes, it is.
10:51:38 <Lymee> "Losing is fun" only applies to multiplayer games.
10:52:37 <Phantom_Hoover> (Headshoots is even more fun to read, although for the exact opposite reason.)
10:53:18 <Lymee> The biggest screwup I've ever had is letting a forgotten beast with an insta-kill dust attack through a hole I didn't even notice before it entered...
10:53:52 <Lymee> Which is to say: Most preventable, most final mistae.
10:54:27 <Phantom_Hoover> I never actually started playing, because I'm too much of a perfectionist.
10:54:38 <fALSO> Dont you guys like nethack?
10:54:44 <fALSO> its a playable game
10:54:52 <fALSO> but it looks phantom_hoover
10:55:00 <fALSO> i would never PAY for something like that
10:55:10 <fALSO> but its ideas.....
10:55:13 <Deewiant> It looks like it's been made in 1987... because it was
10:55:17 <fALSO> dont need to call me an idiot
10:55:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, because you seem to think that a game's entertainment value is entirely a function of how detailed the graphics are.
10:55:49 <fALSO> my entertainment value
10:55:56 <Phantom_Hoover> The rest of us pay for Minecraft because it is fun to play.
10:55:56 <fALSO> makes me try something
10:56:05 <fALSO> to understand what the game is about
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11:10:59 <Phantom_Hoover> fALSO, yes, but the fact that you think the graphics are at all relevant is not encouraging.
11:11:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Its cost is trivial, and it is more than worth the money if you're into it.
11:15:04 <Phantom_Hoover> "141% is the difference between A4 and A3." — ad on YouTube
11:16:30 <Phantom_Hoover> (For Americans and other savages, the A series halves in area each increment.)
11:23:18 <Patashu> I think that would be correct for B4 and B3
11:24:27 <Phantom_Hoover> The B series is the same, it just has a different starting point.
11:25:30 <Deewiant> It's correct for the ratio between the edges of A4 and A3, as long as you take the shorter or the longer edge of each
11:26:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Although in terms of actual costs and what you can print on it, the only thing that really matters is area.
11:26:53 <Patashu> is there an A negative one?
11:27:42 <Deewiant> A0 to A10 exists, with A0 being a square metre (rounded)
11:27:54 <Deewiant> Of course you can extend it arbitrarily far
11:28:21 <Patashu> but the official proportions are post rounding
11:28:27 <Phantom_Hoover> It's defined such that the side ratio is 1:sqrt(2) and the area is a square metre.
11:28:31 <Patashu> so it's not exactly a square meter
11:30:28 <Lymee> Phantom_Hoover, why 1:sqrt(2)?
11:30:33 <Lymee> How is THAT useful?
11:30:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Lymee, because it preserves the side ratio when you cut it in half along the long side.
11:31:44 <Lymee> A1 is half A0 or something?
11:31:53 <Patashu> Lymee, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_216
11:32:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Patashu, don't be hard on her, she comes from the standardless wasteland of America.
11:32:35 <Patashu> That's why everyone here is from sweden
11:33:16 <Patashu> how do you define D0 - D10?
11:34:26 <fizzie> Cn is often used for envelopes holding An papers.
12:01:14 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%28rotational+energy+of+earth%29+-+%28G*mass+of+earth*mass+of+moon%29%2F%28distance+from+earth+to+moon%29
12:02:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, it doesn't recognise G as the gravitational constant.
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12:03:51 <Phantom_Hoover> ...and it still gets caught on the rotational energy bit.
12:04:35 <Patashu> is rotational energy a word?
12:04:38 <Patashu> do you mean angular momentum?
12:05:33 <Patashu> Hmm. If there's energy in having a velocity, but all velocities are relative, does that mean judging kinetic energy is different in every frame of reference?
12:06:26 <Patashu> When people describe it you get the impression that it's thought of as a THING
12:06:32 <Patashu> Some kind of substance objects possess
12:06:40 <Patashu> But it's just a measurement, an incidental property
12:06:47 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not a thing as much as an accounting measurement.
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12:36:06 <CakeProphet> or, at least, I'm surprised ++ isn't a method.
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12:37:07 <Patashu> insane keyboard smash skills http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU_TtuIJwMQ&feature=feedf
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13:08:46 <Phantom_Hoover> "So I admit I'm probably not the kind of person who normally belongs in /r/math ... but am I the only one who thinks complex numbers are bullshit?"
13:11:43 <Patashu> the complex number footage was faked
13:12:10 <lambdabot> . [or compose] is the composition of two plugins
13:12:10 <lambdabot> The following semantics are used: . f g xs == g xs >>= f
13:12:55 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Unknown command: "t"
13:13:08 <lambdabot> expecting variable, "(", ".", "`", "!!", operator or end of input
13:25:53 <Patashu> the program is lunatic rave 2, which is a beatmania IIDX emulator, IIDX being the series of 7key+1turntable rhythm games by konami
13:26:00 <Patashu> the song is kirby dirge by fether
13:27:04 <Patashu> no wait, kirby dirge is the genre, the song name is actually something like Piano Concerto No. 1 "Scorpion Fire" (For Kirby)
13:27:14 <Patashu> and the chart is the overjoy**7 which is one of the hardest in existence
13:27:19 <Patashu> and it's being played by che. it's not a fail but it's an A grade
13:28:16 <Patashu> that should give you enough information to google further anything you're curious about
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15:07:54 <lifthrasiir> Patashu: huh, i never thought that the human being can pass it even with an easy gauge.
15:09:21 <Patashu> it's on the limit of human possibility. che can't pass it
15:11:47 <Patashu> it never gets above 200 bpm jacks per column, which a few people can vibrate at with impeccable control. but doing it for 7+1 columns all at once is asking a lot
15:14:43 <lifthrasiir> that's ~1900 notes per minute. crazy enough.
15:16:05 <Patashu> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDppGonwmb4
15:16:21 <lifthrasiir> in the past i did play such a game, but i never managed above 600 notes per minute.
15:16:34 <Patashu> this chart is roughly equivalent density but half as many columns
15:17:02 <lifthrasiir> safe mode triggered XD, but i suppose it a stepmania session
15:18:07 <Patashu> wait, the video I linked you to is considered mature?
15:19:12 <fizzie> It didn't ask me anything, and I'm not logged in to the tube.
15:19:24 <Patashu> there's 'fucking' in the description
15:19:31 <Patashu> http://www.youtube.com/user/geniusleonid#p/a/u/1/zDppGonwmb4 maybe try this link
15:21:27 <Patashu> I bet if I could link you directly to the video it'd work thn
15:21:44 <Patashu> http://www.youtube.com/v/zDppGonwmb4?version=3
15:23:17 <lifthrasiir> Patashu: indeed... maybe a safe mode is not for embedded videos then?
15:23:45 <Patashu> Well, if you don't load the description your naughty words filter won't see the word 'fucking'
15:24:08 <lifthrasiir> or it is possible that this block is specific to South Korea
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16:36:39 <Lymee> http://i53.tinypic.com/2m68ghk.png
16:36:43 <Lymee> The game's threatening me
16:39:54 <quintopia> you know what would be awesome? someone should recreate that scene from the shining, but use lava instead of blood
16:41:46 <Lymee> quintopia, look what's on the ground.
16:48:37 <Gregor> <elliott_> i kind of like "computing theorist" but it sounds really pretentious :D
16:48:45 <Gregor> The problem is that still includes the word prefix "comput"
16:48:49 <Gregor> That's what needs to be avoided.
16:49:18 <coppro> Gregor: No, because it is computing theory
16:49:28 <coppro> it is the theory of computation
16:49:43 <coppro> just point out to people that it's called computer /science/
16:49:45 <Gregor> coppro: The idea here is to make it so idiots don't say "CAN YOU FIX MY COMPUTER?"
16:50:07 <coppro> Gregor: tell them to go ask a biologist what cold medicine they should take
16:50:26 <Gregor> coppro: Yeah, that works REALLY well.
16:50:31 <Gregor> Seeing as that they don't know what a biologist is either.
16:51:31 <coppro> alternatively, just get the shirt
16:51:44 <Gregor> Conflicts with my glorious neckties.
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17:08:22 <oerjan> an intriguing topic indeed
17:09:46 <oerjan> <oklofok> it's prolly a pretty common problem, i should check the bulleting board downstairs
17:10:00 <oerjan> that's probably a bit narrow, but try checking for subreddits.
17:18:35 * oerjan hates it when logreading and all the people he wants to respond to are offline
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17:20:14 <oerjan> <CakeProphet> kind of surprised mplus isn't ++
17:20:27 <oerjan> it _was_ in haskell 1.4
17:20:50 <oerjan> http://www.mat.uc.pt/~pedro/cientificos/funcional/haskell-report-1.4-html/standard-prelude.html
17:20:51 <oklofok> oerjan: well I'M not offline
17:21:05 <oerjan> which is why i responded to you
17:21:17 <oerjan> patashu and phantom_hoover, on the other hand...
17:22:03 <oerjan> mind you people who are online but have idled for hours are also somewhat annoying
17:22:45 <oerjan> clearly the only polite thing to do is to be awake and on irc always
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18:59:59 <elliott_> 10:45:53: <fALSO> i never understood minecraft
19:00:00 <elliott_> 10:46:06: <fALSO> and why people pay for a game that looks like its been made in 1985
19:00:00 <elliott_> 10:47:13: <fALSO> and whats all the hype about
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19:02:16 <elliott_> 12:35:30: <CakeProphet> kind of surprised mplus isn't ++
19:02:16 <elliott_> 12:36:06: <CakeProphet> or, at least, I'm surprised ++ isn't a method.
19:02:16 <elliott_> 12:36:16: <CakeProphet> of any typeclass.
19:02:22 <elliott_> CakeProphet: all the list stuff is list-specific, unfortunately
19:02:29 <lambdabot> Data.Foldable fold :: (Foldable t, Monoid m) => t m -> m
19:02:29 <lambdabot> Data.IntMap fold :: (a -> b -> b) -> b -> IntMap a -> b
19:02:29 <lambdabot> Data.IntSet fold :: (Int -> b -> b) -> b -> IntSet -> b
19:02:59 <elliott_> CakeProphet: list comprehensions used to be full monadic comprehensions too, but they were downgraded in haskell ninetyeight to make errors simpler
19:06:53 <elliott_> 15:17:49: <lifthrasiir> (i have no youtube account)
19:06:59 <elliott_> lifthrasiir: you do, if you have a google account
19:07:21 <lifthrasiir> elliott_: technically yes, but i never logged on youtube using a google account
19:07:45 <elliott_> 17:20:14: <oerjan> <CakeProphet> kind of surprised mplus isn't ++
19:07:45 <elliott_> 17:20:27: <oerjan> it _was_ in haskell 1.4
19:07:53 <elliott_> what did ninetyeight add again
19:09:12 <elliott_> hmph, map was generic but fold wasn't
19:09:31 <Gregor> elliott_: Just Blargh.
19:09:37 <Gregor> elliott_: Also, what's with your underscore? :P
19:09:44 <Gregor> It's been there for days ...
19:12:25 -!- elliott_ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:12:32 <Gregor> Well, the underscore is gone.
19:12:38 -!- elliott has joined.
19:12:46 <elliott> Gregor: I've no idea to what you refer.
19:13:00 <Gregor> Must have been delusional.
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19:14:50 <elliott_> Gregor: You fucking asshole, my router disconnected me for assuming that name.
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19:15:08 <elliott_> I... can never be elliott again.
19:15:13 <oerjan> elliott: the Eval class was removed because it was horrible to have to include which types seq was used on in each function type
19:15:47 <Gregor> elliott_: You can be ehird :P
19:15:56 <oerjan> come to think of it, it may have been haskell's equivalent to java's checked exceptions :P
19:16:47 <elliott_> <oerjan> elliott: the Eval class was removed because it was horrible to have to include which types seq was used on in each function type
19:16:49 <oerjan> (of course some may think monads still are)
19:17:07 <elliott_> you should not have to name (Seq T) =>
19:17:19 <elliott_> or do you mean like polymorphic things
19:17:28 <oerjan> but presumably for polymorphic things
19:17:28 <elliott_> in which case, sequencing them _should_ require an annotation if not everything is seqable
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19:18:53 <Gregor> HEY ELIOT WHATS WITH UR NICK
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19:30:08 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NorAdder.svg
19:34:31 <elliott> fulladd a b cin (s,cout) = do
19:34:31 <elliott> cout <== (a `and` b) `or` (n `and` cin)
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19:48:46 <elliott> Vorpal: uh, do ripple carry adders take a carry as an input? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:4-bit_ripple_carry_adder.svg suggests so, but the article says you can replace the first full adder with a half adder
19:48:51 <elliott> which wouldn't work if it can take a carry
19:59:03 <pikhq> If you use a full adder then it can take a carry, otherwise it can't. :)
19:59:34 <elliott> do full adders generally take a carry
20:00:49 <monqy> isn't that what differentiates full- and half-adders
20:01:23 <elliott> do full-full adders generally take a carry
20:01:24 <monqy> that full-s take a carry and half-s don't
20:01:38 <monqy> if you want them to????
20:03:36 <elliott> lmao i am reinventing half of York Lava
20:06:36 <elliott> I should rename Var to Bit just to reinforce how much I'm ripping it off
20:06:55 <monqy> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/york-lava/0.2/doc/html/src/Lava-Vector.html#N0 rip this part off too
20:08:13 <Vorpal> elliott, you could do either
20:08:32 <Vorpal> elliott, on x86 I think you have a carry from the eFLAGS register already perhaps
20:08:39 <Vorpal> or is that ADC as opposed to ADD perhaps
20:08:50 <Vorpal> (add with carry, or add without using carry flag)
20:10:04 <elliott> monqy: that's type-level nats :P
20:10:05 <Vorpal> elliott, Add with carry is useful to do a fast 64-bit add on a 32-bit system for example
20:10:12 <Vorpal> elliott, so you just reuse carry from lower half
20:10:17 <elliott> Vorpal: right, it's just a bigger circuit :D
20:10:27 <monqy> elliott: and then, a few hundred lines down, values for each of them
20:10:34 <Vorpal> elliott, in minecraft it is going to be fucking large anyway
20:10:45 <elliott> monqy: its not like you can do better without TH
20:10:45 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway you should do carry-lookahead XD
20:10:51 <elliott> Vorpal: what, a ripple adder?
20:10:59 <elliott> Vorpal: a four-bit one should be of acceptable size.
20:11:17 <monqy> how obscenely slow will ripple-carry be in minecraft
20:11:20 <Vorpal> elliott, ripple added means you have to wait for the carry to ripple through all 128 bits or whatever
20:11:21 <elliott> Vorpal: remember -- humans construct generally flat circuits in MC
20:11:22 <monqy> I support using a fancier adder, as well
20:11:29 <elliott> Vorpal: one hundred twenty eight bits?
20:11:32 <elliott> why would you need that many
20:11:33 <Vorpal> elliott, carry lookahead is a way to reduce that time
20:11:40 <elliott> why would you need that many
20:11:46 <elliott> why would you need that many
20:12:01 <elliott> you're not going to construct a fucking CPU beyond something eight or MAYBE sixteen bit
20:12:06 <Vorpal> elliott, point is, even for much much smaller sizes it helps
20:12:36 <elliott> speed is irrelevant, redstone is fast enough for a small enough number of bits
20:12:41 <elliott> what matters is getting it small enough
20:12:50 <elliott> you realise that redstone transmits instantly right?
20:12:55 <elliott> it doesn't take a tick for things to travel along a wire
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20:13:04 <elliott> so OR is actually completely free.
20:23:21 <Vorpal> <elliott> so OR is actually completely free.
20:23:30 <Vorpal> unless current flowing back into inputs is an issue
20:23:37 <Vorpal> elliott, say you have A or B and B or C
20:23:48 <Vorpal> then if A is true and you wire it stupidly, B OR C will give true
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20:26:05 <elliott> Vorpal: yeaaah, im not sure whether I should make OR use a repeater to avoid that, or whether to just solve it with wiring?
20:26:10 <elliott> I guess if you have like a door as an input
20:26:14 <elliott> then that could fuck things up
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20:36:53 <elliott> Vorpal: that makes things even uglier though :(
21:00:51 <elliott> add4 (a0,a1,a2,a3) (b0,b1,b2,b3) c0 ((s0,s1,s2,s3),c4) = do
21:00:51 <elliott> [c1,c2,c3] <- vars ["C1","C2","C3"]
21:00:51 <elliott> (s0,c1) <== fulladd a0 b0 c0
21:00:51 <elliott> (s1,c2) <== fulladd a1 b1 c1
21:00:51 <elliott> (s2,c3) <== fulladd a2 b2 c2
21:00:52 <elliott> (s3,c4) <== fulladd a3 b3 c3
21:00:54 <elliott> wait, this is just a monadic fold, isn't it...
21:01:00 <elliott> time to copy another piece of york-lava
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21:07:54 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: yeaaah, im not sure whether I should make OR use a repeater to avoid that, or whether to just solve it with wiring? <-- add a repeater if it is needed
21:08:02 <Vorpal> elliott, do path analysis or something
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21:08:16 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean follow inputs back from from OR gates, check if they are safe
21:08:20 <elliott> Vorpal: i don't even know how to write a synthesiser, shut up :D
21:08:34 <Vorpal> elliott, this is *relatively* simple
21:09:08 <elliott> Vorpal: that affects timing though :(
21:09:13 <elliott> I really need to figure out how to handle timing properly
21:09:56 <Vorpal> elliott, yes indeed, that is one of the more complex bits
21:10:20 <Vorpal> elliott, you will need to add repeaters sometimes anyway
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21:11:23 <elliott> Vorpal: im distracting myself by making a generic adder-creator
21:11:29 <elliott> just give it the number of bits and ~VOILA~
21:12:00 <elliott> also: currently every time you use the adder it embeds the entire adder into your circuit, I guess I really need some way to assemble separate components and wire them together...
21:12:52 <Vorpal> elliott, then you need to do CSE between adders and so on
21:13:08 <Vorpal> elliott, actually MC is more like ASIC than FPGA
21:13:09 <elliott> Vorpal: i just need a way to synthesise adders separately and give them input and output wires
21:13:15 <elliott> so that you can plug other components in
21:13:33 <Vorpal> elliott, make it a module in your vhdl-esque
21:13:43 <elliott> its ok, just means that a "design" can contain more than one circuit
21:13:48 <Vorpal> elliott, with a "binary" implementation
21:14:33 <Vorpal> elliott, well what I mean is, that you can give it a special hardwired redstone implementation that it can route, but it possibly can't synth on it's own from the language
21:14:48 <Vorpal> elliott, making it is a sort of "primitive" or whatever
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21:14:53 <Vorpal> well special component
21:15:03 <Vorpal> elliott, think like __builtin_foo in gcc or such
21:15:29 <Vorpal> elliott, except users could supply those as well
21:15:39 <elliott> i don't want anything unsynthesisable to be specifiable :)
21:15:45 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway you might need a few of those anyway for the basics, AND OR NOR etc
21:16:01 <Vorpal> elliott, it can be synthed, just you can't describe it in your HLL
21:16:04 <elliott> I'm considering removing NOR
21:16:11 <Vorpal> elliott, okay better analogy, like asm() in gcc
21:16:11 <elliott> since it's literally just OR with NOT applied to it
21:16:27 <Vorpal> elliott, allow you to do stuff that can be synthed but the normal language can't /quite/ capture
21:16:33 <elliott> Vorpal: shrug -- maybe, but this should generate a small adder
21:16:44 <elliott> it's just a bunch of xor, and, and ors chained together :)
21:16:51 <Vorpal> <elliott> since it's literally just OR with NOT applied to it <-- different if you do it on a raised block *and don't put redstone on top of it*
21:16:56 <Vorpal> because then the inputs will be isolated
21:17:08 <Vorpal> if you put redstone on top of the block the torch is on, it isn't
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21:18:33 <elliott> * Phantom_Hoover (~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486) has joined #esoteric
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21:23:16 <elliott> hmm i should expand my thing to support simulation
21:23:24 <elliott> its just that itll be a pain
21:23:25 <Vorpal> elliott, that is probably easier
21:23:41 <Vorpal> elliott, unless you mean cycle accurate simulation
21:23:44 <elliott> yeah, its just that i keep wanting to do it like york lava, but i cant, because my model is imperative :D
21:23:48 <Vorpal> in which case you can add that after
21:24:03 <Vorpal> elliott, wait imperative?
21:24:24 <elliott> Vorpal: york lava taught me that cycle-accurate simulation is easy!
21:24:29 <Vorpal> elliott, VHDL isn't imperative... it is kind of event driven
21:24:33 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, wait imperative?
21:24:35 <Vorpal> elliott, with an imperativish syntax
21:24:41 <Vorpal> elliott, vhdl is not imperative
21:24:47 <Vorpal> elliott, event driven kind of
21:24:52 <elliott> it's more imperative than Lava-style transformations
21:25:11 <elliott> Lava> simulateN 3 $ map inv [low, high, low]
21:25:12 <elliott> [[high,low,high],[high,low,high],[high,low,high]]
21:25:18 <elliott> halfAdd :: Bit -> Bit -> (Bit, Bit)
21:25:18 <elliott> halfAdd a b = (sum, carry)
21:25:25 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't know how to read that
21:25:32 <elliott> first two lines are ghc repl
21:25:40 <elliott> lines after that are regular .hs haskell code
21:25:53 <elliott> <elliott> Lava> simulateN 3 $ map inv [low, high, low]
21:25:54 <elliott> <elliott> [[high,low,high],[high,low,high],[high,low,high]]
21:25:59 <elliott> <elliott> halfAdd :: Bit -> Bit -> (Bit, Bit)
21:25:59 <elliott> <elliott> halfAdd a b = (sum, carry)
21:26:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Umm... no?
21:26:40 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, Lava does simulation like this:
21:26:43 <elliott> {- Simulate: -} (\[] -> [repeat False])
21:26:47 <elliott> {- Continue: -} (\[o] -> o)
21:26:55 <elliott> inv a = makeComponent "inv"
21:27:01 <elliott> {- Simulate: -} (\[a] -> [map not a])
21:27:05 <elliott> {- Continue: -} (\[o] -> o)
21:28:03 <elliott> Vorpal: i.e. since everything is just functional transformation on (symbolic) bits, it can literally just do the logical operation on its inputs
21:28:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: how is VHDL more functional than York Lava?
21:28:52 <elliott> halfAdd a b = (a <#> b, a <&> b)
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21:29:33 <elliott> I'm not saying that VHDL is imperative
21:29:42 <elliott> But you have to declare all the wires
21:30:13 <quintopia> elliott: havenworks.com Not Available :(((((
21:30:20 <elliott> quintopia: been like that for months
21:30:57 <quintopia> did you download a copy while it was up?
21:31:05 <elliott> I think I did, but I might have trashed it since
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21:36:20 <elliott> Can someone get testBit removed from Data.Bits.Bits for me? thx.
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21:39:50 <Phantom_Hoover> What is it with people *celebrating* over the closure of NotW?
21:41:01 <Phantom_Hoover> It's like they don't realise it's an extremely dirty tactic by News Corp.
21:42:57 <Phantom_Hoover> People just hear the news and thing "yay it's gone!" without realising that it allows NC to distance those responsible.
21:43:54 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> What is it with people *celebrating* over the closure of NotW?
21:44:06 <elliott> It may be a dirty tactic, but it still results in the NotW no longer being published or made, which is a Good Thing.
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21:44:37 <coppro> they actually had no real choice
21:44:55 <coppro> obviously they're just trying to cover their asses here
21:45:12 <coppro> but they aren't trying to make everyone forget
21:45:17 <coppro> they're trying to make the advertisers forget
21:45:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, sure, but then we just have to destroy the (Green) Sun, rather than the Sun /and/ NotW.
21:46:26 <Phantom_Hoover> I like the way that they warned Andy Coulson that they were going to arrest him, though.
21:46:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It was... a half-joke. It /does/ reduce our number of targets by one. :p
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21:47:07 <Phantom_Hoover> There's no way the Sun is going to stop being published. Full stop.
21:47:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It would, if we were crusaders with the power to blow up newspapers' platonic existence.
21:47:23 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: Depressing, isn't it?
21:47:42 <elliott> Anyway, we just need to expose every single person involved in the Sun as a paedophile.
21:47:50 <elliott> Clearly it is the only way.
21:47:58 -!- karlmoore has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:48:04 <elliott> Hope karlmoore enjoyed that.
21:48:10 <coppro> this is probably not too hard given News Corp's apparent security level
21:48:11 <elliott> (diff) (hist) . . N Category:Declarative paradigm; 12:57 . . (+223) . . Timwi (Talk | contribs) (New page: The '''declarative paradigm''' is where a program consists of declarations that define its structure/functionality. This is the opposite of the ''imperative paradigm'' in which programs co...)
21:48:14 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, the problem is that people think that NotW being closed will mean that idiocy will vanish overnight.
21:48:30 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: oh dear
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21:49:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Rather than realising that the only upshot of the closure is that the people responsible for the phone hacking will be that much better protected.
21:50:10 <coppro> then people will just have to try harder to find more scandal
21:50:15 <coppro> I wish this continent worked like yours
21:50:47 <coppro> nobody cares about scandals like that
21:52:51 <coppro> it would have seen a little bit of news
21:52:57 <coppro> and probably prosecution
21:53:07 <coppro> but no real serious outrage like that, I don't think
21:54:49 <elliott> of course it would, it involves a dead kid
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21:58:22 <Phantom_Hoover> And they destroyed evidence, rather than just tampering.
21:59:14 <coppro> elliott: you'd be surprised
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22:16:00 <HackEgo> 131) <fungot> alise: why internet is like wtf \ 136) <pikhq> And... WTF is it doing. <pikhq> :( <Sgeo_> Is it sexing? \ 197) <Vorpal> pikhq, Okinawan? Wtf is that \ 236) <tswett> elliott: just to bring you up to speed, you are now my baby nephew. <olsner> wtf, elliott is a nephew and his uncle is here? <nooga> what <tswett>
22:16:26 <tswett> elliott: by the way, you're now almost capable of crawling.
22:16:47 <elliott> tswett: It's so much harder than the walking I'm accustomed to.
22:16:58 <elliott> `addquote <tswett> elliott: by the way, you're now almost capable of crawling.
22:16:59 <HackEgo> 488) <tswett> elliott: by the way, you're now almost capable of crawling.
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23:07:31 <elliott> http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/10things/10-types-of-programmers-youll-encounter-in-the-field/262
23:07:48 <elliott> "The Theoretician knows everything there is to know about programming. He or she can spend four hours lecturing about the history of an obscure programming language or providing a proof of how the code you wrote is less than perfectly optimal and may take an extra three nanoseconds to run. The problem is, The Theoretician does not know a thing about software development. When The Theoretician writes code, it is so “elegant” that mere mortals ca
23:07:48 <elliott> make sense of it. His or her favorite technique is recursion, and every block of code is tweaked to the max, at the expense of timelines and readability.
23:07:50 <elliott> The Theoretician is also easily distracted. A simple task that should take an hour takes Theoreticians three months, since they decide that the existing tools are not sufficient and they must build new tools to build new libraries to build a whole new system that meets their high standards. The Theoretician can be turned into one of your best players, if you can get him or her to play within the boundaries of the project itself and stop spending ti
23:07:52 <elliott> rking on The Ultimate Sorting Algorithm."
23:07:54 <elliott> LOL THOSE HASKELL PROGRAMMERS
23:10:29 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not allowed to talk about antiïntellectualism, am I?
23:19:11 <BeedaWeeda> that guy Elliott Hird is a sex offender, i found him on englands sex offender registry
23:20:13 <elliott> BeedaWeeda: Were I not underage, I would be out for your fucking head.
23:20:21 <elliott> As it is I'll just wait for your inevitable ban.
23:20:59 <elliott> BeedaWeeda: btw, you're a piece of shit, die in a fucking fire
23:28:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:31:26 <quintopia> elliott: now is the best time to be out for his head. better to be tried as a juvenile.
23:32:10 <elliott> quintopia: I suppose it's fairly likely he'll be a repeat offender
23:32:19 <elliott> Maybe he'll actually find someone who's an adult next time
23:34:45 <quintopia> also, re: theoretician. calling that type of programmer a theoretician is offensive to theory folk. whoever wrote this is gay.
23:36:22 <BeedaWeeda> youre just taking what i used on you and your trying to spin it around and use it on me
23:39:24 <elliott> Trying to use what? Bludgeoning?
23:39:44 <elliott> But seriously, that is one of the absolute worst things you can say about a person, you are a worthless piece of shit.
23:41:28 <elliott> You realise what kind of shit that would put a person in if (a) everyone in here didn't already know you were a piece of shit and (b) I wasn't a minor?
23:41:37 <elliott> Of course you do, or you wouldn't have done it.
23:42:21 <quintopia> elliott: also, no one in this article looks like the average hacker. i don't get it.
23:42:45 <elliott> quintopia: probably because the author considers themselves one
23:42:53 <elliott> otoh, anyone who identifies as an "average hacker" is probably really annoying
23:42:59 <BeedaWeeda> you getting upset like that makes me smile
23:43:44 <elliott> BeedaWeeda: You're really bad at reading emotions; I'm not upset at all, I just think you're a worthless human being.
23:44:23 <elliott> There is absolutely no way what you did will affect me in any way, so I don't give a shit that you did it from a personal perspective; it's just a really terrible thing to do and you are a terrible piece of shit.
23:45:08 <BeedaWeeda> i have provoked hatred and anger within you and thats very obvious by the way your typing
23:45:11 <pikhq> BeedaWeeda: Fuck off and die in a fire.
23:45:14 <quintopia> i agree with elliott. you are the least amusing troll i have ever witnessed.
23:45:32 <quintopia> if you're gonna troll, make me laugh. geez.
23:46:29 <elliott> BeedaWeeda: I'm angry in the sense that you should be made to realise how terrible that was, maybe by experiencing what people who have been falsely accused of child molestation have experienced, but I'm not angry at all. You realise that it takes no emotional investment to type words on IRC?
23:46:36 <BeedaWeeda> i won that im making you guys so angry
23:46:46 <elliott> quintopia: YOU ARE A FUCKING TERRIBLE PERSON DIE
23:46:48 <monqy> take a victory lap please
23:46:51 <elliott> That took approximately 0 units of angry.
23:47:17 <monqy> im so angry im typing in lowercase without any punctuation look at me go
23:47:26 <monqy> beedaweeda what have you done
23:47:27 <BeedaWeeda> this guy takes his online reputation seriously
23:47:29 <elliott> monqy: TYPING IN LOWERCASE IS FUCKING UNACCEPTABLE
23:47:32 <elliott> DIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE DIEEEEEEEEEEEE
23:47:56 <elliott> BeedaWeeda: conversely, you want someone to dig up your real name and let everyone know you're a child molester?
23:48:07 <elliott> fizzie: btw he needs banning
23:48:16 <BeedaWeeda> ive been convicted before but never a sex offense lol
23:48:49 <elliott> If I was an eye for an eye kind of guy, I would imply that BeedaWeeda is saying he got away with all _his_ child molestations.
23:49:13 <BeedaWeeda> your just trying to spin around what i used on you originally
23:49:29 <monqy> surely to hide your fury no less
23:50:08 <elliott> HRRR SO BORING BEEDAWEEDA SO ANGRY
23:50:42 <quintopia> don't hurt him elliott. i know he wouldn't like you when you're angry :P
23:51:19 <elliott> I'm perpetually angry at everything, but BeedaWeeda's permanent ruination of my reputation has caused me to enter DOUBLE ANGER.
23:52:48 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:54:15 <Sgeo_> Who the fuck is BeedaWeeda?
23:54:35 <monqy> a really cool dude that's who
23:56:13 <elliott> Sgeo_: He came in here to prove that aliens exist and talked about UFOs and holes in megalithic structures for a while, then we got bored of prodding him and I told him he was an idiot, he got upset because we HURT HIS FEELINGS WITH CLOSED-MINDEDNESS, came back, and has since really lamely trolled for a few days.
23:56:40 <elliott> Although the progression from talking about wanting to have sex with Casey Anthony to accusing me of child molestation is rather swift one.
23:58:03 <BeedaWeeda> this guy cares about his internet rep so much that he will start yelling in caps over an IRC chat room
23:59:51 <elliott> no bold on IRC, well there is, but +c is on so I can't use it