00:00:17 <NihilistDandy> Capitalism is a cancer. But I'm a smoker, anyway, so...
00:00:33 <elliott> `addquote <NihilistDandy> Capitalism is a cancer. But I'm a smoker, anyway, so...
00:00:34 <HackEgo> 538) <NihilistDandy> Capitalism is a cancer. But I'm a smoker, anyway, so...
00:01:07 <oerjan> what is socialism then? Lupus?
00:03:29 <itidus20> "Everyone else seems to be able to cope with the people they spend most of their time with." That's what I tell myself at first. But then you hear about the divorces and custardy battles. The domestic violence. Cruel managers. Tyrannical dictators. "What would I do or how would I feel if I was one of them?"
00:03:42 <itidus20> no need to add every quote during my bizzaro rant though.
00:04:13 <itidus20> now see.. if they hadn't gotten to me i could just read my sentences normally
00:04:37 <oerjan> custardy battles are really gruesome things
00:04:43 <itidus20> but i also learned about this concept of embedded suggestions, hence: "add every quote during my bizzaro rant" and "read my sentences"
00:05:07 <itidus20> not intentionally though.. it occurs in normal grammar.
00:05:41 <NihilistDandy> Wait, if you were the one on the receiving end, or the one on the giving end?
00:06:01 <NihilistDandy> You'd probably feel pretty awesome in the latter case
00:06:49 <oerjan> thack _is_ boring. also it's july already.
00:08:18 <itidus20> so this crowd.. and believe me there is such a crowd, is saying that people filter out logic and just see imperatives
00:08:30 <itidus20> at least thats what they seem to be saying
00:11:08 <itidus20> there is an xkcd comic which reminds me of what im describing
00:14:59 <Sgeo> Ju is not a month
00:15:34 <itidus20> in the street fighter back story there is a team of evil women named after months
00:15:36 <monqy> portmantaeus don't exist
00:15:39 <ais523> it was originally meant to be in June, but people decided July was better for them
00:15:55 <NihilistDandy> ............................................______ __
00:15:55 <NihilistDandy> ....................................,.-‘”...................``~.,
00:15:55 <NihilistDandy> .............................,.-”...................................“-.,
00:15:55 <NihilistDandy> .........................,/...............................................”:,
00:15:58 <NihilistDandy> .....................,?........................... ...........................,
00:16:01 <NihilistDandy> .................../.................................................. .........,}
00:16:04 <NihilistDandy> ................./.................................................. ....,:`^`..}
00:16:07 <NihilistDandy> .............../.................................................. .,:”........./
00:16:10 <NihilistDandy> ..............?.....__............................ .............:`.........../
00:16:13 <NihilistDandy> ............./__.(.....“~-,_..............................,:`........../
00:16:16 <NihilistDandy> .........../(_....”~,_........“~,_....................,:`..... ..._/
00:16:18 <NihilistDandy> ..........{.._$;_......”=,_.......“-,_.......,.-~-,},.~”;/....}
00:16:21 <NihilistDandy> ...........((.....*~_.......”=-._......“;,,./`..../”............../
00:16:23 <NihilistDandy> ...,,,___.`~,......“~.,....................`..... }............../
00:16:26 <NihilistDandy> ............(....`=-,,.......`........................(......;_,,-”
00:16:28 <NihilistDandy> ............/.`~,......`-...................................../
00:16:30 <NihilistDandy> .............`~.*-,.....................................|,./.....,__
00:16:33 <NihilistDandy> ,,_..........}.>-._...................................|........... ...`=~-,
00:16:36 <NihilistDandy> .....`=~-,__......`,.................................
00:16:38 <NihilistDandy> ...................`=~-,,.,...............................
00:16:41 <NihilistDandy> ................................`:,,.............. .............`..............__
00:16:44 <NihilistDandy> .....................................`=-,...................,%`>--==``
00:16:46 <NihilistDandy> ........................................_........ …_,-%…….`
00:17:06 <zzo38> Is that picture of something? Of what?
00:17:07 <ais523> NihilistDandy: that's not quite the same thing as accidentally pasting a 20-line struct into the channel
00:17:38 <elliott> NihilistDandy: yeah, don't do that.
00:17:49 <NihilistDandy> Never again. I just realized a script I had did that
00:17:51 <elliott> as an ardent pro-pasting activist, that's way too long
00:18:05 <zzo38> Is it picture of facepalm?
00:18:06 <ais523> elliott: would you abuse ops in #esoteric if you had them?
00:18:14 <ais523> (not that I can grant them to you, I'm just curious as to the answer)
00:18:31 <itidus20> Juni and Juli are members of a special unit within Shadaloo called the "Dolls", also known as Bison Elite Guard, which is composed of twelve young women brainwashed to serve as Bison's personal assassins. The twelve members of the Dolls are named after the months of the Gregorian calendar in various languages, with Juni and Juli being German for June and July.
00:18:44 <oerjan> zzo38: thank you, i couldn't see it before you said it
00:18:49 <monqy> junithack, julithack
00:18:58 <elliott> ais523: Well, I mean, maybe for a joke, but not beyond that
00:19:04 <ais523> it can be hard to attract an op here sometimes
00:19:31 <NihilistDandy> Op powers are only for trolling, as far as I can tell
00:20:01 <monqy> im bad with power i never know what to do with it
00:20:45 <oerjan> ais523: i was _this_ far from banning NihilistDandy
00:20:54 <Sgeo> I have power in some places. Then left those places to rot
00:21:09 <oerjan> NihilistDandy: temporarily mind you
00:21:14 <elliott> i am become Sgeo destroyer of virtual worlds
00:21:26 <Sgeo> elliott, since when are wikis virtual worlds?
00:21:40 <elliott> hey oerjan gimme ops i need to find out for sure whether i'd abuse them or not
00:22:02 <elliott> ais523: i figure i'll inevitably get ops if i just stick around here long enough
00:22:07 <NihilistDandy> As compensation: http://www.smbc-comics.com/#comic
00:22:08 <elliott> im going to be the only person here in thirty years
00:22:15 <Sgeo> ais523, yes, and Creatures Wik, although I was a bit more involved there. And Superosity wiki
00:22:46 <ais523> elliott: I tend to randomly pick up ops in all sorts of places when I don't expect it
00:23:08 <NihilistDandy> elliott: You'll be dead in 30 years. HackEgo will become self-aware and destroy all meatbags in its quote file
00:23:14 <ais523> hasn't happened here, yet, even though this is one of the channels people might most expect me to be an op in (given that I'm one of the two active wiki admins, and Keymaker rarely comes here)
00:24:02 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:24:34 <elliott> ais523: you'll get ops when oerjan becomes a wiki admin
00:24:43 <elliott> so you already have them, enjoy!
00:26:08 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +q *!*@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.99.21.147.
00:26:26 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -q *!*@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.99.21.147.
00:27:28 <zzo38> If I do publish any of my computer program in books, I should also included the DVD of the program in the back of the book, too. (This is one idea about literate programming, although there are others, too.)
00:28:10 <oerjan> that, btw, is apparently the cloak of user "test" :P
00:29:19 <oerjan> elliott: the poor innocent victim of my chanserv testing
00:30:12 <elliott> now wtf would it segfault /there/
00:30:32 <elliott> how do you ascend a scope in gdb? ais523?
00:30:48 <ais523> you can use bt to see a list of frame numbers
00:31:06 <elliott> NihilistDandy: "Routine helps calm you down. Maybe you will talk to another friend. You talk to him every day for some reason. Though it's not exactly right to call him a friend, since you despise him. Your relationship with the fellow is difficult to describe. It should be noted that in troll language, the word for friend is exactly the same as the word for enemy."
00:31:13 <elliott> Aww, it's "enemy", not "victim".
00:31:17 <elliott> My tiny memory strikes again.
00:31:21 <elliott> (Note: My memory is not quite tiny.)
00:31:26 <elliott> ais523: isn't there "frame up" or something?
00:32:02 <zzo38> In that case you use the word of troll language in case you need a new word since the normal English word not exactly right, maybe.
00:32:19 <elliott> (gdb) print block_info[block]
00:32:19 <elliott> $2 = {name = 0x0, type = AIR, trait = NO_TRAIT}
00:33:01 <elliott> olsner: it's a block that doesn't exist
00:33:11 <Sgeo> elliott, derp. I was about to complain that routing calming the guy down makes no sense, but I was mistaken as to who that applied
00:33:37 <elliott> Sgeo: good sgeo memory two thousand and eleven
00:33:44 <elliott> 01:32:44 [DIED] Failed to open file '/home/elliott/.mcmap/colors': No such file or directory
00:33:50 <elliott> oh right, i probably shouldn't require it to exist
00:34:04 * olsner gets some burger-n-ds9
00:35:14 <olsner> (the first part is watching unrar for 21 seconds, really boring)
00:35:38 <elliott> Operation not permitted; only the owner of the file (or other resource) or processes with special privileges can perform the operation.
00:35:38 <elliott> No such file or directory. This is a "file doesn't exist" error for ordinary files that are referenced in contexts where they are expected to already exist.
00:35:43 <elliott> EEXIST is a good name for that
00:36:05 <elliott> olsner: then the second part is DS9 and it's even more boring :DDDDDDDdddddd oh snap
00:36:18 <Sgeo> <elliott> G_FILE_ERROR_EXIST
00:36:18 <Sgeo> <elliott> Operation not permitted; only the owner of the file (or other resource) or processes with special privileges can perform the operation.
00:36:25 <elliott> it's funny because DS9 has a plot, an attribute not shared with the entire rest of star trek
00:36:27 <Sgeo> Why... call it G_FILE_ERROR_EXIST?
00:36:41 <elliott> i think its from unix wow what the fuck happened to the map
00:36:44 <olsner> elliott: both your statements are tainted by truth
00:36:50 <elliott> 01:36:36 MODE: surface긒澖缀è긒澖缀`跈Ā
00:37:16 <olsner> but yeah, I'm really looking forward for this "plot" you speak of
00:37:28 <elliott> olsner: how many episodes in are you??? DS9 is great
00:37:36 <olsner> elliott: 10 or something
00:37:41 <elliott> i'm assuming you meant you haven't seen plot yet
00:37:45 <NihilistDandy> I liked TNG and Voyager, and DS9 is quite acceptable
00:37:49 <Sgeo> I'd comment, but my opinions tend to be random relative to consensus
00:37:54 <elliott> NihilistDandy: You're the worst person
00:37:57 <elliott> I'm removing you from the whitelist now
00:38:11 <olsner> TNG really had no plot at all, and for the most part that was a good thing
00:38:38 <elliott> NihilistDandy: I'm offended by your liking of Voyager, not your ambivalence to DS9
00:38:41 <ais523> I didn't really watch Star Trek enough to be able to tell one series from another
00:38:42 <NihilistDandy> elliott: You'll never get ops now. Your abusive nature is revealed
00:38:43 <Sgeo> elliott very quickly abuses power
00:38:54 <olsner> enterprise is currently my reference to startrek-with-plot
00:39:02 <elliott> NihilistDandy: OK yeah, stop saying that Voyager is an acceptable thing.
00:39:22 <Sgeo> elliott, can we at least agree that the Voyager theme is good?
00:39:29 <ais523> elliott: when I watched it I was too young to know good from bad, at least wrt Star Trek
00:39:32 <elliott> Sgeo: It's a bit boooooooooooooring.
00:39:33 <ais523> so I have only your word to go on
00:39:41 <elliott> So is DS9's, but it's the nicer of the two boring Star Trek themes
00:39:47 <elliott> ais523: Literally everyone hates Voyager :P
00:39:48 <NihilistDandy> olsner: I think Enterprise hurt me a little. I couldn't watch past the third episode
00:39:59 <elliott> NihilistDandy: Through a Mirror, Darkly is the only good Enterprise
00:40:07 <elliott> ALSO ITS INTRO HAVE WE RAVED ABOUT ITS INTRO ENOUGH IN THIS CHANNEL YET
00:40:43 <elliott> NihilistDandy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl5zw6fGjdA is the cool intro to In a Mirror, Darkly
00:41:02 <elliott> They took all the exploration scenes from the normal intro and turned them into the far superior Earth-blowing-shit-up scenes
00:42:32 <NihilistDandy> That was pretty cool. The music's kinda bland, though
00:42:55 <elliott> OK, what the hell happened to this...
00:43:04 <elliott> (mode == MAP_MODE_CROSS && map_flags & MAP_FLAG_FOLLOW_Y ? " (follow)" : ""),
00:43:04 <elliott> (mode == MAP_MODE_SURFACE && map_flags & MAP_FLAG_CHOP ? " (chop)" : ""),
00:43:04 <elliott> (map_flags & MAP_FLAG_LIGHTS ? " (lights)" : ""),
00:43:04 <elliott> ((map_flags & MAP_FLAG_LIGHTS) && (map_flags & MAP_FLAG_NIGHT) ? " (night)" : ""));
00:43:09 <elliott> How can any of that be 긒澖缀è긒澖缀`跈Ā?
00:43:20 <elliott> NihilistDandy: Have you seen the normal Enterprise music.
00:43:22 <elliott> Anything is better than it.
00:43:47 <elliott> NihilistDandy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPn-lTytfGo Enjoy terrible pop song
00:44:07 <ais523> elliott: have you tried encoding the garbage string as UTF-16, then decoding it as UTF-8?
00:44:28 <elliott> I love how it looks like a bad redub by someone on YouTube
00:44:33 <elliott> ais523: nope, I'm mostly trying to figure how I broke a piece of code I didn't even otuch
00:44:51 <NihilistDandy> Top comment on that video: Hey Im kinda new to the Star Trek franchise just bought the original series on dvd watching it tonight. Now which series has Wil Wheaton in it.
00:45:00 -!- Nisstyre has joined.
00:45:18 <zzo38> Maybe it has messy format strings?
00:45:25 <elliott> I like how Wil Wheaton has about the same number of likers as Wesley Crusher has haters
00:45:35 <zzo38> Or, buffer overflows?
00:45:45 <elliott> zzo38: but i didnt tucho that biteof code
00:46:14 <zzo38> Then maybe buffer overflows.
00:46:16 <pikhq_> elliott: Wil Wheaton is a pretty nice guy, and Wesley Crusher is a terrible character. Simple. :)
00:47:29 <itidus20> I support the Wesley Crushers.
00:48:17 <olsner> I don't really get that though, wesley crusher was a likable geniusishy character, but all I've seen of wil wheaton is the big bang theory making him seem like a dick
00:48:28 <elliott> ais523: how does use valgrind
00:48:33 <elliott> olsner: wesley crusher was not likeable???
00:48:46 <ais523> for checking for memory access errors, just write valgrind before the command name
00:48:48 <olsner> elliott: I am saying he was
00:48:54 <elliott> he was the accidental archetype of "smart but REALLY ANNOYING DICK"
00:49:06 <elliott> and his smartness was just annoying because it made no sense at all
00:49:11 <elliott> ais523: find memory corrupt
00:49:19 <elliott> dunno if i'm smart enough for this but HERE WE GO
00:49:20 <ais523> finding corruption is its default setting
00:49:26 <elliott> also dunno if it'll like SDL
00:49:27 <pikhq_> olsner: People get annoyed at Mary Sue wunderkind.
00:49:45 <itidus20> He has become Sheldon's nemesis. But we sympathize with Sheldon.
00:50:14 <ais523> pikhq_: I think the actor who played Wesley Crusher is on record as saying that he hated Wesley Crusher too
00:50:18 <elliott> i've never watched big bang theory but isn't sheldon meant to be a total jerk too
00:50:24 <pikhq_> ais523: Yes, Wil Wheaton is on record saying that.
00:50:26 <elliott> characters are not likeable just because they're intelligent
00:50:39 <pikhq_> elliott: He's autistic taken up to 11.
00:50:51 <elliott> minecraft why do you hate me
00:51:08 <zzo38> NihilistDandy: No. You mean *I'm* drunk? I don't think I am drunk either.
00:51:11 <NihilistDandy> You can't have your characters announce how they're feeling. THAT MAKES ME FEEL ANGRY!
00:51:51 <elliott> elliott@katia:~/Code/mcmap$ valgrind hello let's be friends
00:51:54 <elliott> ais523: help what do i tell valgrind
00:51:58 <elliott> it wants to know something
00:52:11 <ais523> elliott: valgrind doesn't take input
00:52:14 <ais523> and just outputs to stderr
00:52:15 <olsner> stupid elliott doesn't identify with intelligent unlikable characters on tv
00:52:18 <ais523> so obviously hello is asking for inputs
00:52:19 <elliott> then why is it asking me :(((((((((((((
00:52:29 <elliott> ais523: oh, should i say hello to hello???
00:52:40 <ais523> you have an unmatched '
00:52:41 <elliott> ==3150== Conditional jump or move depends on uninitialised value(s)
00:52:41 <elliott> ==3150== at 0x57BBE40: inflateReset2 (in /lib/libz.so.1.2.3.4)
00:52:41 <elliott> ==3150== by 0x57BBF2F: inflateInit2_ (in /lib/libz.so.1.2.3.4)
00:52:41 <elliott> ==3150== by 0x40A47B: world_thread (in /home/elliott/Code/mcmap/build/mcmap)
00:52:42 <elliott> wow, I don't even want to know
00:53:10 <ais523> bleh, I don't have hello installed
00:53:56 <elliott> what the fuck? it looks like the only memory badness is in the lines i didn't touch
00:54:00 <elliott> and that don't access any values i touched
00:54:41 <elliott> (minecraft may be off-topic here, but mcmap isn't!)
00:58:42 <olsner> THIS STRAW HAS NO BENDY-END
00:59:13 <monqy> bendy is the best part of straws :(
00:59:24 <elliott> what, the NY Times is running a story about /Dwarf Fortress/?
00:59:35 <elliott> monqy: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/magazine/the-brilliance-of-dwarf-fortress.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all
00:59:36 <olsner> monqy: well, this straw DOES NOT HAVE IT
00:59:56 <elliott> did i die and end up in heaven
01:00:25 <olsner> the lack of bendiness is located to the straw
01:00:53 <oerjan> olsner: monqy: stop it. we don't want straw arguments here.
01:01:05 <elliott> you're such a straw man, oerjan
01:01:17 <olsner> oerjan: if my straw had bendies I could build a strawman
01:02:01 <Lymee> Where do.... Dwarf eat--
01:02:30 <olsner> Lymee: your questions are irrelevant in this crisis
01:02:41 <zzo38> Now read the "level20" D&D recording file.
01:02:46 -!- ralc has joined.
01:02:48 <oerjan> the straw that broke olsner
01:02:52 <elliott> "The only furniture in the small dining room is Scamps’s litter box."
01:02:55 <olsner> Lymee: the straw, the bendy, it lacks it
01:03:08 <elliott> Lymee: hi, can you fix mcmap,
01:03:08 <zzo38> There may be some things I have missed and I will ask my brother and the DM. But other errors such as grammatical or whatever, you can tell me now.
01:03:17 <elliott> "If much of Tarn’s apartment suggests a tenant who never fully moved in, his bedroom suggests a tenant who never sets a sock outdoors."
01:03:26 <elliott> "Tarn wakes up around 3 p.m. every day, codes through the night and goes to bed around 6 a.m."
01:03:57 <elliott> i think tarn's a republican though so :(
01:04:10 <elliott> also i would never make a game as boring as dwarf fortress
01:04:31 <elliott> "Tarn consumed “maybe one glass” of water in the last three months, hydrating with soft drinks instead. “Water’s not doing it for me these days,” he said. “I know it’s bad, but the sugar goes right into programming the game. If I don’t drink soda now, I get a headache and can’t do any work.”"
01:04:36 <elliott> i think they made this article just to laugh at him
01:04:37 <zzo38> Then don't make Dwarf Fortress, please.
01:05:22 <Lymee> elliott, nonsense!
01:05:29 <Lymee> That is the standard all programmers must aspire to.
01:05:45 -!- elliott has set topic: Tarn was pleased. “The hippos like the sewers!” he said. He took a celebratory swig of Dr. Pepper and rocked back and forth. | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
01:06:05 <itidus20> There is some property of soda which makes it less painful on sensitive gums.
01:06:35 <elliott> it's probably all that acid
01:06:38 <Gregor> Is it the fizziness, or the acidity? :P
01:07:06 <itidus20> but water tends to irritate my gums
01:07:10 <olsner> elliott: you know, this Tarn character sounds like someone from that story about the search for the Point
01:07:14 <itidus20> because i have some serious gum problems
01:07:22 <elliott> olsner: search for the what now?
01:07:47 <elliott> "The issue wasn’t aptitude so much as passion. He wanted to do math but also to make video games, a juggling act he managed as an undergraduate. This had become impossible. “They wanted 60 hours a week from you, giving you problems that would take 20 hours to solve,” he said. He grew depressed and, in his only encounter with drugs, snorted meth."
01:07:53 <elliott> this is the silliest article
01:07:57 <olsner> elliott: well, was it a search? I just recall something with "the Point"
01:08:05 <itidus20> you know... all the fizz and acids makes it possible for them to add salt to the soda
01:08:33 <elliott> all the real bedroom programmers snort pure liquified scheme
01:08:34 <itidus20> 23mg of sodium per 250ml in my current soda
01:09:10 <itidus20> question is, how much sodium in water. and would i taste 23mg of sodium in 250ml of water
01:09:37 <elliott> itidus20: never leave us ok
01:10:05 <NihilistDandy> I played Dwarf Fortress for 20 minutes before becoming a mix of bored and disillusioned
01:10:26 <elliott> dwarf fortress is great, it's just not a game
01:10:41 <elliott> more like a scientific measuring and probing tool for a universe that doesn't exist
01:10:41 <itidus20> people don't necessarily want games.
01:11:10 <zzo38> No, it is a video game.
01:11:12 <olsner> itidus20: at least one yes
01:11:16 <NihilistDandy> I spend most of my time modelling and probing things that don't exist. I don't need that in a game
01:11:30 <itidus20> is making an avatar jump onto a floating brick a game?
01:11:31 <elliott> super mario brothers is a game, yes :P
01:11:33 <monqy> i wish i could get into dwarf fortress
01:11:41 <monqy> it sounds like the kind of game i would like
01:11:43 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
01:11:43 <elliott> monqy: get into elliottcraft instead
01:11:45 <zzo38> itidus20: No, that is just an idea.
01:11:47 <monqy> the kind of more than a game i would like
01:12:03 <itidus20> well.. in super mario bros, you do that just within the context of a game
01:12:04 <elliott> monqy: yes i play minecraft, but it is a bad game, so i am making a totally different game and calling it a better minecraft
01:12:18 <elliott> monqy: dwarf fortress-level detail and depth, but minecraft-style graphics and infinite world
01:12:27 <elliott> plus you control a player rather than dwarves (although there are AIs in the world)
01:12:29 <itidus20> super mario bros is about jumping on blocks with a time limit
01:12:34 <elliott> i'm not sure what the goal is yet :<
01:12:44 <elliott> but hey, infinite in all directions unlike minecraft!!
01:12:48 <elliott> (minecraft has a height limit)
01:12:55 <zzo38> itidus20: Well, it is about reaching the end of each level, I think
01:13:04 <zzo38> It is the goal, at least.
01:13:14 <itidus20> by study i mean i look at websites
01:13:15 <olsner> Und jetzt: schalafen werden würden werden sein... Ja?
01:13:40 <itidus20> originally shigeru said.. each level should take about 60 seconds
01:13:44 <elliott> monqy: also competently coded multiplayer??? unlike minecraft's which is so bad you have no idea
01:13:49 <NihilistDandy> elliott: Well, I mean if you have a real UTM you could do it strictly :D
01:13:59 <elliott> NihilistDandy: utms can't do infinite computation in finite time, sorry no
01:14:03 <itidus20> the people said.. oh no. thats a lot of screens that have to be created per level if it is scrolling for a whole minute
01:14:13 <monqy> one time i played minecraft
01:14:17 <itidus20> then shigeru said.. but there will be things on the way to slow them down
01:14:18 <monqy> it was a long time ago
01:14:24 <NihilistDandy> elliott: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJsPoI2w6-A
01:14:28 <elliott> monqy: back when it was a java applet?
01:14:31 <elliott> and you had infinite of all blocks
01:14:45 <monqy> is it not a java applet anymore?
01:14:52 <elliott> monqy: well it's java, but nobody plays it in the applet form any more
01:14:59 <elliott> and it costs money, but not much
01:15:07 <elliott> monqy: the beta is actually a fun game. the coding is so bad you have no idea, but it is actually fun.
01:15:23 <elliott> monqy: 21 dollars, it seems
01:15:29 <elliott> it was half that when i bought it during alpha :P
01:15:31 * olsner had an MRI scan the other week, btw: there should be nothing to worry about - because if there were I hope they would've told me by now
01:15:41 <elliott> (and will double again when it hits final)
01:15:48 <elliott> olsner: worry? I was just getting excited :(
01:15:56 <itidus20> yeah.. super mario game is all about reaching the end of the level within a time limit
01:16:01 <monqy> 42 dollars minecraft?
01:16:04 <olsner> elliott: MRI scans are more noisy than exciting
01:16:11 <elliott> monqy: well, it's a lot bigger game now :P
01:16:23 <elliott> monqy: aren't new games like sixty dollars anyway
01:16:37 <monqy> elliott: i dont buy games i have no idea
01:17:01 <olsner> elliott: otoh, why would you ever worry about my "insignificant" existence
01:17:13 <elliott> monqy: minecraft is good to buy because it gives you two good things to do:
01:17:16 <elliott> monqy: - complain about minecraft
01:17:18 <elliott> monqy: - play it and enjoy it
01:17:33 <olsner> NihilistDandy: the nihilist doubly so
01:17:41 <itidus20> Game theory is not a perfect tool for analyzing video games.
01:17:45 <elliott> monqy: also you get to play with us :{
01:17:51 <itidus20> Nash failed to create a "video game theory"
01:18:01 <elliott> `addquote <itidus20> Nash failed to create a "video game theory"
01:18:02 <HackEgo> 539) <itidus20> Nash failed to create a "video game theory"
01:18:17 <elliott> `addquote <itidus20> Game theory is not a perfect tool for analyzing video games. <itidus20> Nash failed to create a "video game theory"
01:18:18 <HackEgo> 539) <itidus20> Game theory is not a perfect tool for analyzing video games. <itidus20> Nash failed to create a "video game theory"
01:20:21 <elliott> “I don’t mind the idea of never having kids,” he said. “I want to stay focused on the game, and if I had kids, I’d wind up paying attention to them instead.”
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01:21:12 <elliott> why its awesome (its obviously trying to paint him as a "weird" person but who cares)
01:22:07 <itidus20> i cut and pasted someone elses spelling
01:22:57 <itidus20> I was gonna say Bowser from mario... but couldn't think of a name which would click instantly
01:23:08 <itidus20> Since some call him King Koopa
01:23:26 <elliott> wow he makes a lot from donations
01:24:08 <monqy> like a bowser from mario
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01:24:21 <elliott> Still, in the only moment I heard him speak with anything like bitterness, Tarn called Minecraft a “depressing distillation of our own stuff.”
01:24:33 <elliott> NihilistDandy: it's a section break
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01:25:29 <itidus20> I think the only reason I want Minecraft is the polish. Gameplay polish and also the abundance of NPCs
01:25:58 <pikhq_> Coincidentally, those are the two major lacking features of Minecraft!
01:26:02 <itidus20> And -- since my brain can think up such things... I dare say
01:26:03 <NihilistDandy> 'As Tarn got into the zone, his muttered profanities and grumbles about “x distances”'
01:26:15 <itidus20> Terraria is Lemmings with NPCs.
01:26:25 <elliott> you dont control a character in Terraria
01:26:49 <ais523> you don't really control a character in Lemmings either
01:26:56 <elliott> you control a character in Terraria
01:27:01 <elliott> you dont control a character in Lemmings
01:27:10 <pikhq_> You're just a demigod in Lemmings.
01:27:14 <itidus20> I just uh.. hit on a cool idea didn't i?
01:27:27 <elliott> terraria is basically minecraft + rpg
01:27:28 <ais523> is that really a cool idea?
01:27:40 <ais523> pikhq_: you're more of a tactical advisor who tells them when to turn into walls and when to explode
01:27:50 <pikhq_> ais523: I'm going with demigod.
01:28:19 <itidus20> on bing: Thats an urban legend. However, in the very excellent video game Lemmings, they do. Now thats a great idea for a video game: Lemmings vs Zombies.
01:28:32 <pikhq_> "Demi" because you're not *that* powerful, "god" because thou art greatly seeing and greatly knowing.
01:29:00 <itidus20> "Can I be one of the play testers for Zombies vs. Lemmings? And will there be a sequel game with zombie lemmings?"
01:29:03 <elliott> ais523: lemmings with npcs actually sounds interesting
01:29:14 <itidus20> http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2011/04/this-isnt-going-away/
01:29:24 <NihilistDandy> pikhq_: I always thought a demigod was just someone in charge of the espresso machine
01:29:25 <ais523> it depends on what the NPCs do, and interact with the game
01:29:42 <elliott> oh, it's against obama conspiracies
01:29:47 <ais523> elliott: I'm not at all surprised that the website exists
01:30:09 <elliott> ais523: I was worried it would be a collection of conspiracies about Obama in /favour/ of them
01:30:27 * elliott becomes the Tarn, tries to figure out what's up with this code
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01:31:56 <Sgeo> "There are those who tell us that any choice from among theoretically-equivalent alternatives is merely a question of taste. These are the people who bring up the Strong Church Turing Thesis in discussions of programming languages meant for use by humans. They are malicious idiots. The only punishment which could stand a chance at reforming these miscreants into decent people would be a year or two at hard labor. And not just any kind of
01:31:57 <Sgeo> hard labor: specifically, carrying out long division using Roman numerals. A merciful tyrant would give these wretches the option of a firing squad. Those among these criminals against mathematics who prove unrepentant in their final hours would be asked to prove the Turing-equivalence of a spoon to a shovel as they dig their graves."
01:32:57 <Sgeo> http://www.loper-os.org/?p=448
01:33:18 <elliott> "Why do birthers believe what they do? It turns out that one factor in whether someone mistakenly considers random patterns to be something significant has to do with dopamine levels in their brains — the more dopamine, the more belief. Dopamine is part of the brain’s reward system. I was just reading about this today in Michael Shermer’s book, The Believing Brain."
01:33:23 <elliott> this blog sure is fishing for posts
01:33:36 <elliott> Sgeo: oh, another loper post
01:34:17 <elliott> Sgeo: re turing-equivalence: right point, annoying delivery, as always with loper-os
01:34:24 <elliott> apart from the times it's wrong point, annoying delivery
01:34:40 <Sgeo> elliott, I think it's hilarious delivery *shrug*
01:34:54 <Sgeo> elliott, link to wrong point?
01:35:07 <Sgeo> I think rage is funny
01:35:09 <elliott> "you say this huge blog is wrong sometimes?? PROVE IT WITH A LINK"
01:35:23 <elliott> also, yeah, now try reading every loper post and not getting sick of him and wanting him to shut the fuck up
01:35:28 <elliott> Sgeo: but here's a wrong point: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=428
01:35:44 <elliott> here's a stupid point: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=405
01:35:59 <elliott> here's a stupid point: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=374
01:36:00 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Well, the Turing thesis really *does* imply that the choice of language is "merely" one of taste.
01:36:17 <pikhq_> But, then, the same is true whenever you have a selection of tools theoretically capable of a given task.
01:36:29 <elliott> its not the turing thesis ffs
01:36:34 <elliott> church-turing thesis is a different thing
01:36:41 <pikhq_> Even if your choice is between a spoon and a bulldozer.
01:37:02 <elliott> Sgeo: lol -- see that project cosa stanislav linked to?
01:37:07 <elliott> from the guy behind that thing's blog:
01:37:16 <monqy> i dont think a bulldozer will help me eat this soupe
01:37:17 <elliott> The Surprising Source of My Knowledge about the Brain
01:37:17 <elliott> In my recent article on the flaws in Numenta's memory model, I made several claims about how the brain processes sensory signals. I now reveal the source of my knowledge as promised. Those of you who have followed my work over the years will not be surprised by what I am about to say. As always, it is up to you to take it or leave it.
01:37:20 <elliott> The source of my knowledge is a couple of occult symbolic texts found in the Bible.
01:37:21 <Sgeo> I saw the link, didn't click it
01:37:22 <elliott> -- http://rebelscience.blogspot.com/2011/06/surprising-source-of-my-knowledge-about.html
01:37:36 <pikhq_> The problem is, of course, that we have people convinced that a teaspoon is a good tool for digging a tunnel.
01:37:57 <monqy> does anyone think bulldozeres are good for soupes
01:38:13 <pikhq_> monqy: Well, the XML crowd seems to think that.
01:38:24 <pikhq_> Except instead of a bulldozer it's more a Death Star.
01:38:51 <elliott> "Neither Newton's gravity equation nor the equations of General Relativity explain why things fall. But what better way is there to hide one's cluelessness while presenting a façade of erudition than to use obscure equations to erect an impregnable mountain of obfuscation? Voodoo science is guru science."
01:39:04 <elliott> "Examples of voodoo science masquerading as legitimate science are all around us: time travel, wormholes, black holes, dimensions curled up into little balls so tiny as to be undetectable, parallel universes, continuum physics, quantum computing, symbolic intelligence, machine consciousness, etc... It is all worthless crackpottery."
01:39:16 <elliott> (Spacetime is a fictitious math construct, famous physicists are clueless about time, time dilation is a misnomer and time travel is crackpottery)
01:39:17 <elliott> (Aristotle was right about the causality of motion and, as a result, we are immersed in an immense lattice of energetic particles)
01:39:26 <elliott> (Gravity is an energy conservation phenomenon. It is both instantaneous and nonlocal)
01:39:26 <elliott> (Intelligence is mostly about the temporal correlations between discrete sensory signals)
01:39:43 <elliott> Artificial Intelligence From the Bible!
01:39:44 <elliott> Due to recent dramatic progress in my research, this article has been deleted. My old interpretation of the scriptural metaphors was partially in error. I am working on a new series of articles on the subject. In the meantime, I encourage my readers to read Rebel Science News for the latest.
01:40:07 <Sgeo> can't see when he makes mistakes
01:40:14 <Sgeo> (Erm, as in, in his predictons)
01:40:35 <Sgeo> Although I'm sure he'll call any falsifications "voodoo science"
01:40:55 <elliott> im torn between wanting to read the cosa paper and not wanting to because this guy man
01:42:21 <elliott> monqy: this guy's dataflow software/os/language proposal which seems to be much saner than his other stuff
01:46:00 <oerjan> indeed, you should never use ketchup with filet mignon
01:47:06 <monqy> what do you advise
01:48:09 <oerjan> i like béarnaise sauce
01:50:04 <monqy> I think I've had bearnaise sauce one time it was good pepper sauce is good too i forget if i've ever had filet mignon
01:50:08 <oerjan> hm wait that doesn't mean the same thing as "peppersaus"
01:50:30 <elliott> no thats a completely different thing obviously
01:50:31 <NihilistDandy> I actually kind of like this: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=428
01:51:24 <elliott> with the context of http://www.loper-os.org/?p=288
01:51:59 <elliott> also his response to http://www.loper-os.org/?p=288&cpage=1#comment-1283
01:52:04 <elliott> it's amusing but wrong and stupid
01:53:25 <elliott> loper is full of good ideas written by an annoying person with a too-big ego
01:53:37 <elliott> HAVE I MENTIONED THAT TUNES IS GREAT
01:54:00 <oerjan> elliott: the english word implies chili pepper, the norwegian word implies black pepper (or similar)
01:54:27 <Sgeo> elliott, the thing common between them is that neither are currently usable
01:54:37 <ais523> I think "pepper sauce" refers to black pepper in British English too
01:54:48 <elliott> "TUNES started in 1992-95 as an operating system project, but was never clearly defined, and it succumbed to design-by-committee syndrome and gradually failed."
01:54:50 <pikhq_> "Pepper sauce" just sounds bizarre in American English.
01:54:52 <elliott> TUNES is now officially over
01:55:03 <ais523> so why is clog still here?
01:55:21 <elliott> ais523: the website isn't down, it's just officially abandoned; and besides, clog is a bespin service, not a tunes one
01:55:27 <elliott> we just use the wrong url because everyone does and it's prettier
01:55:30 <elliott> monqy: wait you don't know of tunes?
01:55:39 <pikhq_> A sauce from chili peppers would be "hot sauce", and you can make a black pepper sauce?
01:55:41 <ais523> I only do because of clog
01:55:48 <ais523> pikhq_: you can make a source from black pepper
01:55:54 <Sgeo> Unununium is also dead
01:55:55 <ais523> and other ingredients too
01:55:59 <ais523> not /just/ black pepper, obviously
01:56:04 <pikhq_> ais523: Well, obviously.
01:56:05 <elliott> ais523: every programmer should know about TUNES, I think
01:56:24 <ais523> elliott: in your opinion, lots of people should know about all sorts of things I don't know about
01:56:27 <pikhq_> But, seriously, that seems like a strange sauce basis.
01:56:29 <ais523> I'd give an example except I can't
01:56:29 <elliott> so that they don't keep assuming Unix and Windows are the only ways to do computers, or anywhere near the best way
01:56:44 <ais523> I don't assume UNIX/Windows are the only way to do things at all, though
01:56:51 <itidus20> I'm at the end of the game Like a bauss
01:57:00 <elliott> ais523: let's put it this way: @ doesn't sound like much new to anyone who knows about TUNES
01:57:04 <monqy> whats a bauss is it like a bawwwss ;___________________;
01:57:05 <ais523> UNIX is like the BF of operating systems; people who try to design operating systems normally end up designing crappy versions of it, but that doesn't mean it's the only way to do an OS
01:57:08 <elliott> I would hazard a guess that @ sounded new to you
01:57:26 <ais523> and @ is unlike OSes I know about, but the concepts aren't new to me
01:57:42 <elliott> monqy: @ is the operating system you'll use in a few decades... maybe.
01:57:44 <oerjan> pikhq_: hm i went by wikipedia, where "pepper sauce" redirects to "hot sauce", which has both terms and chili sauce bolded
01:57:56 <pikhq_> oerjan: "Pepper sauce" still sounds bizarre.
01:58:02 <monqy> elliott: googleing for @ doesnt work he;lp[
01:58:02 <itidus20> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NisCkxU544c
01:58:06 <elliott> ais523: I like to think @ will be interesting enough to surprise you when it actually exists
01:58:06 <ais523> "chili sauce" would be the usual name in the UK
01:58:12 <elliott> monqy: @ is my ultimate NIH project
01:58:15 <pikhq_> monqy: Modern Windows is, IMO, in the same OS family as UNIX.
01:58:22 <ais523> err, "chilli" I think in British English
01:58:33 <ais523> pikhq_: I agree too, although it's a very bad example of it
01:58:33 <elliott> monqy: I decided that software was fundamentally broken
01:58:34 <Sgeo> "It's 2008 now. If a few dedidated hackers can find the time and money to put some sustained effort into it, we could have a working prototype by 2010, with widespread use by 2015 or 2020.
01:58:59 <elliott> monqy: so i tossed everything out, and started designing a new software environment ("operating system is inaccurate"; @ has no distinction between the OS and everything running "on top" of it)
01:59:07 <Sgeo> What makes something in the same OS family as UNIX?
01:59:09 <elliott> including language, from scratch
01:59:14 <Sgeo> Files in a heirarchy?
01:59:23 <elliott> Sgeo: that would make DOS a UNIX
01:59:39 <ais523> it didn't have directories
01:59:46 <ais523> it spent the rest of its life gradually stealing UNIX concepts
01:59:55 <elliott> monqy: you may peruse http://catseye.tc/ehird/files-suck.html but only in the knowledge that it's old and whiny, and only summarises one aspect of @ (and fairly vaguely at that)
02:00:07 <ais523> how did that end up on catseye?
02:00:15 <ais523> I'm not surprised you wrote that, but I am surprised at where it's hosted
02:00:17 <elliott> ais523: I had no hosting at the time and asked cpressey on IRC, and he said sure
02:00:50 <ais523> gah that's formatted badly, far too narrow
02:01:06 <elliott> nah, it's only about 3 ems too narrow
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02:01:27 <pikhq_> Sgeo: The primary feature is having the prime data structure being a hierarchy of blobs of bytes, with a little bit of metadata. Combine with a C ABI and system calls as the basic ABI, and multitasking, and you have a vaguely UNIX-like OS.
02:01:31 <elliott> (ten words per line/sixty-six characters per line is the widely-agreed-upon ideal that presumably has some research backing it up, and that's 33 ems)
02:01:32 <ais523> congratulations, you're the first person who actually made me open up Firebug and edit the CSS
02:01:35 <ais523> to make it three times the width
02:01:49 <ais523> even then, I'd prefer it to go margin to margin
02:02:11 <elliott> ais523: now wouldn't it be nice if browsers didn't make lousy document viewers, and you could have done that without resorting to such things?
02:02:17 <pikhq_> Also, yes, the memory/disk dichotomy is big.
02:02:22 <elliott> (I also think your eyes are broken, but oh well)
02:03:32 <ais523> elliott: I can think of some counterpoints to things in that files article
02:03:57 <elliott> ais523: go on, although I'll probably disagree with them
02:03:58 <ais523> in particular, it's often useful to be able to change the representation of something on disk, and if you abstract away from that, there's no way to do so
02:04:11 <elliott> I even address that in the article
02:04:34 <NihilistDandy> Would you fuckers stop talking so fast? I'm still reading the scrollback for context :D
02:04:47 <ais523> and no you don't, unless I missed where you addressed it
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02:05:04 <elliott> ais523: tl;dr current @ design is that any "entity" (/object/whatever) can override its own saving and storing, but most of the time you'll want to just use a pre-written transformer like a compressor, since you must ensure to always save and restore _all_ of the state
02:05:08 <elliott> ais523: "You don’t have to give up the compactness of formats like PNG, either: you can store that as a byte array in memory, and have it as the pluggable “backing storage” of some abstract image type. That way, all images are accessed in the same way (although possibly with different operations depending on the characteristics of the backing storage) regardless of the underlying compressed stora
02:05:24 <elliott> that's a little vague and not the exact current design that I stated, but it still addresses it
02:05:30 <elliott> "You could have overridable serialisation, so that e.g. a PNG-backed image is serialised as the compressed PNG, without any auxiliary data that can be generated when it is used."
02:05:35 <ais523> ah, I suppose my question is as to how you're meant to change the backing storage
02:05:54 <elliott> ais523: depends how you tell the operating system anything about an object
02:06:04 <elliott> Every object could be responsible for its own serialisation/deserialisation, for instance
02:06:13 <NihilistDandy> Also, elliott, last I was aware 100 characters/line was the new sort-of standardy ideal
02:06:17 <ais523> also, how does @ do naming objects? e.g. atm I can access /home/ais523/esoteric/intercal/git/intercal to get the latest C-INTERCAL source
02:06:17 <elliott> and you could pull in GzipSerialiser
02:06:24 <elliott> NihilistDandy: nah, the sources for that seem rubbish
02:06:26 <ais523> and obviously that doesn't have to be done with a hierarchical filename
02:06:31 <ais523> but I'm wondering what specifically replaces it
02:06:43 <pikhq> ais523: That's metadata.
02:06:53 <elliott> I get to answer questions about @ :p
02:06:57 <elliott> ais523: how do you name the x coordinate of the first coordinate in a list of coordinates (say array) in C?
02:07:10 <ais523> elliott: in C, it depends on their internal representation
02:07:18 <elliott> ais523: filesystem names are internal representations
02:07:29 <elliott> but the point is, array[0].x is a name too
02:07:39 <ais523> at the moment, the filesystem representation, while internal, is the one that humans use to specify files
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02:07:47 <elliott> ais523: but in @ the primary means of naming documents isn't by internal name
02:07:51 <ais523> I'm asking what @'s equivalent is, not because I don't think it exists, but because I'm curious as to what it is
02:08:02 <ais523> so it's not so much an accusation as a question
02:08:07 <elliott> ais523: I'm not sure exactly how you /do/, because I don't know what @'s UI looks like yet, other than it being very, very different from anything else
02:08:33 <ais523> ("I don't care what it is as long as it's different"?)
02:08:34 <elliott> ais523: but e.g. you might say "find|document|@ best os" and it would find you a document titled "Why @ is the Best OS"
02:08:40 <elliott> (prioritising title over text, etc.)
02:08:52 <ais523> what if I don't want to do any sort of search?
02:08:58 <elliott> or "find|documents|older than april"
02:09:08 <elliott> ais523: Don't think of it as searching
02:09:11 <ais523> e.g. if I'm using @ to work on some more traditional software
02:09:14 <elliott> ais523: just think of it as naming an object
02:09:24 <ais523> elliott: I want exactly the same result every time, no matter what's happened in terms of creation of other objects meanwhile
02:09:28 <elliott> ais523: If you want a precise name, you could take its object ID -- basically, like a pointer, but it's literally global
02:09:34 <ais523> or deletion or changes of any objects other than the one I want
02:09:39 <ais523> and I can't remember hashes
02:09:42 <zzo38> Can you use the ID numbers for the documents and whatever you want to find?
02:10:11 <ais523> you're ignoring the side of the triangle I most care about
02:10:15 <elliott> ais523: Unix cheats by not having the decentralised or secure properties
02:10:15 <ais523> and I'd much prefer you discarded one of the other two
02:10:31 <elliott> I solve that by having alternate ways to name objects, like I said
02:10:37 <ais523> hmm, decentralised is the one I care least about
02:10:43 <ais523> I'm fine if I can only access stuff on my own computer
02:10:49 <elliott> It's integral to @'s design
02:10:51 <ais523> better, in fact, as I'm typically not connected to a network
02:10:53 <elliott> It's integral to @'s design
02:11:06 <ais523> well, in that case I probably won't use @, it's fundamentally incompatible with the way I work
02:11:09 <elliott> @ makes no innate distinction between RAM and disk; it also makes no innate distinction between local and global
02:11:16 <elliott> ais523: You could define a filesystem view of all your documents
02:11:21 <elliott> Mangle the name and some other data to form its name
02:11:37 <ais523> hierarchical filesystems are far from perfect, but at least they're usable
02:11:39 <elliott> You can do anything you can do in Unix with @; it just wouldn't be /idiomatic/
02:11:47 <elliott> ais523: I just told you how to get a filesystem; you could make it hierarchical too
02:11:57 <elliott> ais523: You could manage it manually by constructing a filesystem object yourself; basically just an associative map
02:12:07 <ais523> what's @'s equivalent to UNIX "find" (i.e. get everything below a certain point in the hierarchy)?
02:12:07 <elliott> But I find dismissing these things before actually using them to be unwise
02:12:13 <zzo38> O, so filesystems are not the fundamental things, but you can still make it up yourself to do like a filesystem?
02:12:27 <ais523> the concepts don't translate at all well, which is why I asked
02:12:29 <elliott> ais523: There is no hierarchy. If you mean on a constructed filesystem, that's up to the API of the associative map
02:12:54 <elliott> ais523: Anyway, the distinction between local and global doesn't make local use more difficult
02:12:58 <zzo38> Well, I certainly wouldn't know until I can see some parts of it that it can be done.
02:13:01 <elliott> [asterisk]lack of distinction
02:13:03 <ais523> say, I'm working on a program, and I want to find all instances of a certain identifier in all the source that makes up that program
02:13:09 <elliott> ais523: Note that distinctoins are made at the user-level
02:13:10 <ais523> (I'm trying not to assume that the source is text-file-like here)
02:13:28 <elliott> ais523: Well, "program" is also an artificial distinction :)
02:13:30 <ais523> presumably I have to group all those files some way so I can equivalent-of-grep over just those
02:13:43 <ais523> elliott: well, let's try "package", which is also an artifical distinction but one that's made deliberately for a reason
02:13:43 <elliott> ais523: But say you have a collection of <objects or whatever> that count as the structure of your program
02:13:57 <ais523> or "portion of all software that I'm responsible for maintaining"
02:14:01 <ais523> which is not arbitrary
02:14:01 <pikhq> ais523: How would you do that on an arbitrary data structure?
02:14:11 <elliott> pikhq: please, don't try and argue @ for me, it makes @ look bad :)
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02:14:19 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, then.
02:14:20 <ais523> pikhq: for a completely arbitrary data structure, with no knowledge about its contents, I couldn't
02:14:38 <ais523> but that's not the case even in @
02:14:47 <elliott> ais523: Well, I don't know how you'll actually phrase queries... because I don't know what @'s UI is yet (this also implies I don't know what its language is yet, because they're two sides of the same coin)
02:15:19 <elliott> ais523: Things like functions will have a way to get at their underlying AST
02:15:33 <elliott> Maybe only in some context like a package
02:15:37 <elliott> To avoid breaking all sorts of parametricity
02:15:40 <ais523> I've just realised that Feather is the only sensible language to write this in
02:15:53 <ais523> you just said "Things like functions will have a way to get at their underlying AST"
02:16:06 <elliott> That breaks all sorts of properties, it's gross
02:16:14 <elliott> But you might be able to get a function's source from its module, say
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02:16:27 <ais523> I'd assume functions would be decompiled to get their source
02:16:33 <elliott> ais523: But anyway, tl;dr AST objects (if there is a concept like an AST??) will have a way to search for an identifier
02:16:34 <ais523> and things like comments would be part of the compiled version
02:16:38 <ais523> so that it would roundtrip
02:16:38 <elliott> So it's basically just a map over the project
02:16:53 <elliott> I know this is hopelessly vague, but your questions are all user-level, which is the least certain part of @ so far
02:17:09 <ais523> yes, that's because the system-level stuff, at least at the highest level, makes a lot of sense
02:17:09 <elliott> So I do ask you don't dismiss it before it exists based on _these_ answers :)
02:18:05 <ais523> incidentally, I can think of a moderate solution to the zooko's triangle problem; allow individual users (with whatever way you identify who they are, which you have to do for security reasons) to have their own private names for arbitrary objects
02:18:25 <ais523> that way you have both a secure/decentralised name and a secure/humanreadable name, with the human who reads it doing the centralisation
02:18:26 <Sgeo> ais523, I think there are systems that do that
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02:18:42 <elliott_> <ais523> incidentally, I can think of a moderate solution to the zooko's triangle problem; allow individual users (with whatever way you identify who they are, which you have to do for security reasons) to have their own private names for arbitrary objects
02:18:50 <elliott_> ais523: And yes, that's a Petname system
02:18:57 <ais523> [03:18] <ais523> that way you have both a secure/decentralised name and a secure/humanreadable name, with the human who reads it doing the centralisation
02:18:58 <ais523> [03:18] <Sgeo> ais523, I think there are systems that do that
02:19:00 <elliott_> ais523: And that will be possible, yes
02:19:00 <ais523> I think I'd be fine with that
02:19:08 <elliott_> ais523: It'll be the same mechanism as what replaces a browser's bookmark system, too
02:19:21 <elliott_> ais523: And of course you won't be restricted to naming things with a-constrained-path.txt, or even just a string
02:19:26 <elliott_> No reason a name can't be an object
02:19:29 <Sgeo> So I have to think up names for all my bookmarks?
02:19:35 <ais523> elliott_: except that objects can't be compared, in general?
02:19:41 <pikhq> Sgeo: Your bookmarks already *have* names.
02:19:41 <ais523> a name has to be something comparable
02:19:41 <elliott_> Sgeo: what happens when you press the bookmark icon on your browser?
02:19:45 <ais523> apart from that, it can be general
02:19:58 <elliott_> ais523: although you could have a name that isn't comparable, and it'd just appear in a list of all your names
02:20:00 <elliott_> that'd be fairly pointless, though
02:20:02 <Sgeo> elliott_, A name is filled in, but possibly non-unique
02:20:03 <ais523> Sgeo: your bookmarks are almost certainly given the title of the website they refer to, at the time it was bookmarked, as names
02:20:13 <elliott_> Sgeo: Non-unique names are OK, too
02:20:13 <Sgeo> "Index of /" etc.
02:20:18 <elliott_> Looking it up will just say "oops, which do you mean"
02:20:30 <elliott_> in fact, the default lookup operation might as well just do a fuzzy-ish text search
02:20:37 <Sgeo> Also, I tend to bookmark everything and then never look at them agian
02:20:40 <elliott_> that's a lot more convenient, too, since you can type only part of it and select which one you want
02:21:30 <ais523> elliott_: I think Firefox's address bar thing has quite a few properties in similar with the way @'s names would typically work (although a lot of differences too)
02:21:42 <elliott_> yes; Firefox's address bar is a good idea, implemented badly
02:21:54 <ais523> what do you dislike about the implementation, incidentally?
02:22:07 <elliott_> It's hard to articulate; it just doesn't do what I want
02:22:14 <elliott_> Chrome's is better, but it tends to not find things in my history, which is really annoying
02:22:37 <ais523> when I'm typing in the address bar, either I'm copying an URL, or I'm searching in history
02:22:50 <ais523> so Firefox does pretty much exactly what I want there
02:22:56 <elliott_> ais523: Anyway, hopefully @'s "final" (just the beginning) version will be the OS you want to use; all my efforts right now are classed as pre-pre-pre-pre-alphas of a given /stratum/ of a project leading up to @
02:22:58 <ais523> I definitely don't want it to return arbitrary websites, that's what the search box is for
02:23:07 <elliott_> So there's plenty of time for you to test and comment on it :P
02:23:21 <elliott_> ais523: I'm not even joking, I've even tried to name distinct phases
02:23:41 <elliott_> I can't call anything @ until it's 1.0 quality, and that means being about a million lightyears ahead of any existing OS
02:23:47 <ais523> security sounds like a hard problem in @, in that a single security bug could allow someone to instantly bring down every computer in existence
02:23:50 <elliott_> Oh, and @ isn't its actual name, of course
02:23:55 <ais523> ofc, it's just a placeholder
02:23:59 <ais523> it's not bad for an actual name, though
02:24:03 <ais523> perhaps its actual name will be an object
02:24:09 <elliott_> Bad for Googleability, but who will use Google once @ is around?
02:24:10 <ais523> rather than a text string
02:24:39 <elliott_> Using @ will, ironically but perhaps appropriately, not be as nice as using @ would be in an ideal world; nobody else is going to use it, so you'll still be stuck with the web, and IRC, and all sorts of other mediums that reimplement everything and don't allow you to send objects
02:24:41 <elliott_> <ais523> security sounds like a hard problem in @, in that a single security bug could allow someone to instantly bring down every computer in existence
02:24:42 <ais523> elliott_: probably Google will have the best servers at resolving who has a copy of a given @ object
02:24:48 <elliott_> Really? I'm planning on using capability security.
02:24:58 <elliott_> That seems relatively immune to such things because the security isn't "a thing" or a layer
02:25:01 <ais523> elliott_: I mean, if the security implementation is broken
02:25:04 <elliott_> It's just an inherent property of who gives you what.
02:25:11 <elliott_> ais523: See above; capability security doesn't get implementations.
02:25:17 <ais523> "a capability" isn't something you can hardware into an actual processor
02:25:18 <elliott_> It's literally just not having a standard environment beyond what's passed around.
02:25:27 <elliott_> ais523: A capability is just an object!
02:25:33 <elliott_> It is a 0 lines of code thing.
02:25:39 <elliott_> There are no flags or anything.
02:25:45 <elliott_> It is just recognising that a pointer to X means you are allowed to use X.
02:25:55 <ais523> elliott_: yes, so what if I try to use X without a pointer to it?
02:26:02 <elliott_> ais523: How? You can't name it.
02:26:04 <ais523> that's meant to be impossible, but has to be implemented somehow
02:26:04 <itidus20> "Slartibartfast: Can I be one of the play testers for Zombies vs. Lemmings? And will there be a sequel game with zombie lemmings?"
02:26:14 <itidus20> "Count me in too! Dr C you really should patent that ideaI think that game or app would rake in a fortune! ;)"
02:26:20 <ais523> elliott_: well, say X happens to be on my physical hard drive
02:26:32 <Sgeo> elliott_, there has to be a level of abstraction though
02:26:32 <ais523> I can name it by its location on the drive
02:26:38 <elliott_> ais523: You can't access the bits on your hard drive; nobody passed you that object.
02:26:47 <elliott_> Of course they didn't, that's insanely high-privilege.
02:26:48 <itidus20> that's the kind of crap patents are.. its really just how quickly you can traverse the inventions tree and find an empty node
02:26:59 <ais523> elliott_: so what if an exploit does let me access the bits on my own hard drive?
02:27:10 <ais523> say, removing the hard drive and putting it into an older laptop that doesn't run @
02:27:17 <elliott_> Yes, security bugs are possible, but capability security makes it just so less likely.
02:27:28 <ais523> or corrupting its processor somehow such that it runs arbitrary I/O instructions?
02:27:35 <ais523> that's what I mean by implementing security
02:27:36 <elliott_> ais523: And then modifying the bits so that the piece of code you're running has a pointer to X?
02:27:39 <itidus20> I clearly demonstrated that I was able to independantly discover the idea.
02:27:47 <elliott_> If your hard-drive is not encrypted and you have access to it you can do anything locally.
02:28:02 <ais523> elliott_: yes, or that modifies something it has in order to put the content there
02:28:13 <elliott_> And @ won't even try; a user can ask it to fiddle with bits on its hard drive and it will happily comply, perhaps after panicking a bit and asking if you're sure.
02:28:19 <elliott_> (A user, not a piece of code.)
02:28:23 <ais523> that's what I'm getting at; it's that the universe doesn't support @'s model of capabilities
02:28:28 <elliott_> You've successfully compromised your own system.
02:28:32 <elliott_> ais523: I don't wish to imprison the user.
02:28:32 <ais523> so they have to be implemented in terms of something that doesn't
02:28:37 <Sgeo> elliott_, there's a distinction between user and code?
02:28:46 <Sgeo> Hmm, perhaps whether the code comes from user or elsewhere
02:28:48 <ais523> now, how do we serialise capabilities to send them over the network?
02:28:51 <elliott_> The user is just a really high-privilege context.
02:28:54 <ais523> aha, that's what I'm getting at
02:28:57 <elliott_> ais523: You don't. There is no "capability".
02:29:07 <elliott_> ais523: If someone gives you a reference to an object that happens to be somewhere else in the world, you can use it.
02:29:09 <ais523> elliott_: well, objects are capabilities
02:29:10 <ais523> and you can send those
02:29:13 <Sgeo> But then, a trojan can tell the user to just go "Oh hey, claim you're my source"
02:29:23 <ais523> so presumably, we need to serialise the references to be able to send them over the network
02:29:25 <elliott_> ais523: You just serialise the object and send it, or just send a pointer
02:29:41 <zzo38> I also have the idea to empower the user, but doing it mostly in hardware instead of in software.
02:29:47 <elliott_> (I'm not sure how big the hash will be)
02:29:49 <ais523> elliott_: so if I get the hash of any other object, I can access it?
02:29:59 <elliott_> ais523: Only if another machine says it's offering
02:30:09 <ais523> why would the machine be offering?
02:30:21 <Sgeo> Was about to say that it smells like security by obscurity
02:30:23 <elliott_> Because it's configured to offer; it offers nothing by default
02:30:25 <Sgeo> Is "offering" a boolean?
02:30:43 <elliott_> Sgeo: Offering is a set, presumably
02:31:14 <elliott_> ais523: The user can share things, presumably
02:31:18 <elliott_> Which would make them being-offered
02:31:23 <ais523> elliott_: btw, the "memory/disk" dichotomy seems wrong; UNIXy systems are moving more and more in the direction of removing it
02:31:37 <elliott_> ais523: As long as files on disk are bytes, it is still there
02:31:46 <elliott_> It doesn't matter whether a disk cache exists
02:31:47 <ais523> and files in memory are also bytes?
02:31:49 <elliott_> That's an implementation detail
02:32:05 <monqy> well im laiughning
02:32:06 <elliott_> ais523: Even having to call mmap is too much
02:32:23 <elliott_> Orthogonal persistence is the only way to escape that dichotomy, although those are the wrong terms; it is a simpler system than a filesystem
02:32:27 <ais523> elliott_: well, I meant that mmap has the right sort of semantics, it's just that it should be implict rather than explicit
02:32:49 <ais523> after a while you start seeing mmap reversed, in that the disk is just swap space for memory
02:32:52 <ais523> and gets paged in and out
02:33:04 <elliott_> ais523: That's orthogonal persistence: RAM is just disk cache,
02:33:15 <ais523> yep, I know what it is
02:33:37 <elliott_> ais523: Of course, the ideal would be if a non-volatile RAM interface was plugged into the CPU
02:33:41 <elliott_> Or otherwise into the computer
02:33:42 <ais523> hibernation is more along the same lines; it just swaps data out of the sort of implementation-detail storage that doesn't exist while the system is off
02:33:45 <elliott_> But as it stands, software has to handle it
02:33:52 <ais523> do you know how Linux loads executables, nowadays?
02:33:56 <elliott_> ais523: right; hibernation in @ is just a flush and a power cut
02:34:06 <elliott_> And I forget, but it involves an mmap-alike of some sort
02:34:10 <ais523> it just mmaps them, and lets page faults do the actual loading
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02:34:21 <elliott_> mmap is my favourite system call
02:34:27 <elliott_> It's that little glimmer of light in Unix.
02:34:27 <Sgeo> elliott_, is there any sort of restart that isn't hibernate and restore?
02:34:37 <elliott_> Sgeo: Uh... you could wipe your disk and reinstall @.
02:34:50 <ais523> Sgeo: presumably it would be the equivalent of kill -15 0
02:35:02 <pikhq> ais523: Also how any sane ld.so does things.
02:35:04 <elliott_> ais523: ouch; that would delete all your files
02:35:07 <elliott_> probably lazily, as the GC runs
02:35:07 <Sgeo> I don't know what kill -15 0
02:35:13 <elliott_> but it'd also crash your system forever
02:35:17 <ais523> elliott_: err, really?
02:35:28 <elliott_> ais523: well, I forget what -15 is :)
02:35:32 <Sgeo> Why, what's signal 15?
02:35:34 <ais523> Sgeo: "tell every process I have permissions to tell to exit to exit"
02:35:37 <ais523> elliott_: it's SIGTERM
02:35:45 <ais523> like -9 except that the programs get a chance to do cleanup
02:36:12 <elliott_> ais523: basically, if you kill all running code, then not only is there no code for the computer to run (???), but there's also no references to any objects
02:36:21 <elliott_> and objects without references get garbage collected
02:36:35 <ais523> but 0 doesn't mean "all running code", it means "all processes I have permissions to signal"
02:36:39 <ais523> which is presumably quite different
02:36:40 <elliott_> so that's a really, really slow disk wipe, basically, assuming that GCs still run with no code for the computer to run
02:36:56 <elliott_> ais523: Well, OK. It would just remove all _your_ files, unless someone else has a reference to them.
02:37:22 <elliott_> ais523: I'm not sure there's any distinction between "kill this code" and "destroy this object", anyway
02:37:40 <ais523> I'm not deleting the code, just telling it to stop running
02:37:47 <ais523> so in @, presumably it'd go into some sort of paused state
02:37:48 <elliott_> You're deleting the thunk that represents that running code
02:38:06 <elliott_> ais523: Oh, you just want to tell the scheduler to stop switching to all objects you can access, then
02:38:07 <ais523> in UNIX, you have two separate concepts; the editor, and the file that it edits
02:38:14 <elliott_> That'd just lock up your session, including post-reboot
02:38:37 <elliott_> (The problems that restarts are usually used to solve -- e.g. "clear my workspace" -- are solved in different ways in @)
02:38:40 <ais523> elliott_: presumably @ notionally has a global scheduler that schedules for everyone in the universe, although it's actually implemented in a decentralised way
02:38:45 <elliott_> Oh, and user responsiveness is the top priority, more or less
02:38:51 <elliott_> Code will never cause your keyboard and mouse to stop working
02:38:56 <elliott_> (because it's lagging your system)
02:39:03 <elliott_> So you'll always be able to kill miscreant processes
02:39:24 <ais523> assuming no scheduler bugs
02:39:40 <elliott_> But @ is basically designed so that every component is too simple to fail.
02:39:50 <ais523> so what's responsible for scheduling the scheduler? or is it somehow more "special" than all the other functions?
02:39:53 <elliott_> e.g. capability security in itself cannot fail, because it's more an observation than code at all
02:40:04 <elliott_> ais523: Well, objects could be responsible for their own scheduling, although that has a whole bag of issues; I'm not sure what my scheduler model looks like because I'm not sure what my concurrency model looks like because I'm not sure what my language looks like.
02:40:19 <elliott_> @ may seem underdesigned, but it's really just that there's so _much_ to think about
02:40:24 <ais523> although I'd think the language would be caused by the concurrency model, not cause it
02:40:45 <elliott_> ais523: there's this big knot at the core of @, but if you look closely, it's actually a point
02:41:00 <elliott_> It looks like a bunch of concepts tangled up that you have to work out at the same time, but they're actually all the same concept
02:41:01 <ais523> I still dislike the statement that capability security is an observation
02:41:14 <elliott_> ais523: it is; the only time an actual bit started existing was at the network boundary
02:41:36 <ais523> well, what prevents you just guessing at references to objects?
02:41:51 <ais523> or is the /internal/ storage for them kilobyte-long hashes?
02:42:05 <elliott_> The internal storage for them is a pointer. But you don't have the ability to cast a random integer to a pointer.
02:42:14 <elliott_> Giving you that capability would be insane; it's insanely privileged.
02:42:23 <elliott_> ais523: Note that @ does not rely on the hardware's really coarse, bad mechanisms for security.
02:42:28 <ais523> but if a bug does give me the ability to cast a random integer to a pointer, it completely blows open the security
02:42:31 <elliott_> ais523: This is why it can run in ring 0, and do things like syscall inlining.
02:42:41 <elliott_> ais523: Well, it blows open the local security.
02:42:43 <ais523> I think that's what I was getting at
02:42:46 <elliott_> ais523: That's like a root escalation exploit in Linux.
02:42:53 <elliott_> It still doesn't give you the power to demand objects from other computers.
02:43:02 <ais523> and presumably, a similar bug would be a remote arbitrary code execution bug
02:43:10 <ais523> which could also occur
02:43:18 <elliott_> Right; but you don't see that much in high-level languages at all.
02:43:21 <ais523> it's just that there's only the one layer of security
02:43:33 <elliott_> ais523: Nah; there's as many layers as there are objects
02:43:35 <ais523> elliott_: we discovered one in Rodney (#nethack's bot) recently
02:43:47 <ais523> but it was using eval, without taint checks
02:43:59 <elliott_> ais523: BTW, in @, eval would be insanely rare, because who stores code as a string?
02:44:05 <ais523> it was trying to regex the eval, but there was a misplaced ^
02:44:07 <elliott_> OK, you can have eval : AST → a
02:44:19 <elliott_> ais523: all I see is typing bugs
02:44:30 <elliott_> (taint checks are basically a really rudimentary type system)
02:44:42 <elliott_> ais523: BTW, casting integer-to-object-leaking bugs seem really contrived, because that's another low-level-ism
02:44:44 <ais523> actually, Perl's taint checking is identical to the Identity monad
02:44:57 <elliott_> Perl taint checking == phantom types
02:45:16 <elliott_> thisiscool :: Data NotOK -> Data OK
02:45:17 <ais523> elliott_: here's a fun fact: Linux has a system call that puts a process into a "secure" mode where it only accepts 4 system calls
02:45:20 <oerjan> <elliott_> ais523: there's this big knot at the core of @, but if you look closely, it's actually a point <-- so, basically, just the same as feather? >:)
02:45:30 <pikhq> ais523: Which 4 calls?
02:45:35 <elliott_> ais523: I take it you know this because you're using it?
02:45:36 <ais523> which are just enough to get data in and send it out, doing anything else gets you kill -9ed
02:45:43 <elliott_> I think you've told me about this before
02:45:48 <ais523> there's no way to get out of the mode, because the syscall that would take you out of it is not one of those
02:45:54 <pikhq> Ah, so. Read, write, exit, and...?
02:46:07 <ais523> I can't remember precisely what they are
02:46:11 <elliott_> oerjan: :) My current plan to tackle it is to try a bunch of "mini-@s" that don't try to do nearly as much, and have a specific, inadequate instantiation of the inner point.
02:46:11 <ais523> I doubt arbitrary read/write are allowed
02:46:12 <pikhq> Actually, probably mmap.
02:46:15 <elliott_> That should give me more insight on what the point has to be.
02:46:22 <ais523> the funny thing is, that there's also a getter to see whether you're in this mode or not, but no way to run it
02:46:22 <elliott_> "what the point has to be" -- heh.
02:46:26 <pikhq> ais523: You could only read/write to things where you already have the file descriptor.
02:46:31 <ais523> well, if you aren't in the mode, it returns 0, and if you are in the mode, it crashes
02:46:32 <elliott_> And also help me figure out a lot of details, especially relating to its implementation on existing hardware.
02:46:40 <elliott_> (Yes, @ stops at the hardware layer!)
02:46:43 <ais523> so the getter always returns 0 even though the value is settable
02:46:47 <elliott_> (I know, it surprises me too! Let's hope I don't forget that!)
02:47:12 <elliott_> ais523: you could set up a signal handler before you get put in the box
02:47:21 <pikhq> It's read, write, _exit, and sigreturn.
02:47:36 <ais523> also, sigreturn's allowed? that means that signal handlers are
02:47:40 <elliott_> ais523: I've always really wanted an exploit in kill -9; it replaces your code with a suicider, and sets your priority really high
02:47:42 <ais523> but I assume they can't actually /do/ much but read/write/exit
02:47:48 <elliott_> ais523: So if you could somehow override that code before the kernel jumps to you...
02:47:50 <ais523> elliott_: heh, is that how it works?
02:47:54 <elliott_> Try to kill me?? I WILL COME BACK STRONGER THAN EVER
02:48:05 <ais523> I assumed it just marked the process as zombie, or something like that
02:48:19 <zzo38> Maybe sigreturn is in case you set signals before entering restricted mode
02:48:29 <ais523> in fact, it should just do the same code as _exit, which already has the right semantics
02:48:38 <elliott_> ais523: it's probably OOM kill I'm thinking of
02:48:41 <elliott_> since it would need to free up its memory
02:48:45 <ais523> pikhq: what's the syscall to get into that mode? I thought it might be prctl, but I was probably wrong
02:48:48 <elliott_> It probably just turns it into an _exit call
02:49:07 <pikhq> With PR_SET_SECCOMP
02:49:13 <ais523> I was reading the man page for prctl, but missed it
02:49:16 <elliott_> ais523: anyway, I hope you have a bit more insight to @ now
02:49:27 <elliott_> And hopefully like it a bit more, or at least it hopefully surprises you a little
02:49:39 <ais523> I sort-of had the fundamentals down (they're pretty similar to something I was thinking of myself), but the details are interesting
02:49:55 <elliott_> I note that @ sort of changes a bit whenever I talk about it to respond to criticism; does Feather do that too? :p
02:50:05 <ais523> elliott_: no, Feather changes whenever I try to implement it
02:50:33 <ais523> the main problem with Feather is not so much design flaws, as inability to start without going into an infinite loop
02:50:45 <ais523> an implementation is badly needed to prove that that doesn't happen
02:51:09 <ais523> I've already had to add a boolean to every object that simply queries if it's # or not
02:51:13 <ais523> in order to get off the ground
02:51:16 * elliott_ wonders how long until someone stops an @ program from accessing more than a certain few types of object to stop it leaking memory (e.g. including no arrays), but gives it integers
02:51:21 <ais523> which is a really specific thing to have, and I'm not sure what to name it
02:51:32 <elliott_> and then I'll run a program that leaves them a nice message and gets to work on constructing Graham's number
02:52:02 <elliott_> ais523: oh, wait, you didn't know that gnome's file opener let you type in a location?
02:52:25 <elliott_> ais523: that's the top-left icon in the dialogue; click it and it'll focus by default
02:52:32 <ais523> thanks, that's blown my mind to
02:52:33 <elliott_> you can also type directories in there, and their names complete
02:52:39 <elliott_> and <enter> will change to that directory
02:52:45 <ais523> I know it does that, it used to do that before I couldn't find the location bar at all
02:52:56 <ais523> I was fine with that dialog, other than its insane slowness at loading /usr/bin
02:53:05 <ais523> but pressing / makes the location bar magically appear
02:53:09 <ais523> (other characters often don't)
02:53:19 <ais523> (although I suspect ~ probably does)
02:53:30 <ais523> another pet hate of mine: alt-f2 doesn't expand ~ but interprets it literally
02:53:48 <ais523> if I write ~/esoteric/intercal, it interprets it as /home/ais523/~/esoteric/intercal
02:53:51 <ais523> which is obviously not what I wanted
02:54:05 <elliott_> I really wish I knew what @'s point looked like :(
02:54:31 <elliott_> when I try to envision what a screenshot of @ would look like, I honestly just see a black screen
02:55:23 <monqy> wear a special hat and think about what you want user interface
02:55:31 <ais523> I don't think it would look too dissimilar from a modern OS
02:55:46 <ais523> because the UI and internal representation are not necessarily linked at all, nor should they be
02:55:46 <elliott_> ais523: your conception of that being a bunch of terminal windows and Emacs?
02:55:59 <ais523> elliott_: that's not actually what my desktop normally looks like
02:56:02 <elliott_> ais523: The UI is just how you look at the internal representation
02:56:12 <ais523> atm, it has IRC, email, two browsers, terminal
02:56:14 <elliott_> I mean, yes, things can have a nice veneer over that
02:56:21 <elliott_> But you can always look at an object directlry
02:56:30 <elliott_> @'s interface also doubles as the best programming interface ever
02:56:37 <ais523> now, in @, I'd have things available for doing the same activities
02:56:48 <ais523> and I imagine their UI would be similar
02:56:59 <elliott_> ais523: yep, but it won't have a traditional window manager
02:57:03 <elliott_> I'm not sure what it /will/ have
02:57:03 <ais523> e.g. whatever I was using to look at a document full of hyperlinks probably wouldn't be Firefox, or even a Web browser
02:57:07 <ais523> but it would control in a similar way
02:57:12 <elliott_> I used to think it'd look like Emacs, but with objects instead of text
02:57:15 <ais523> and look similar, as that's what people want hyperlinked documents to look like
02:57:22 <elliott_> Oberon has a good interface, I can take inspiration from that
02:57:46 <ais523> one big advantage of being text-oriented is that you can edit everything with the same operations
02:57:56 <elliott_> You can do that with objects too, the operations are just more mind-bending
02:58:04 <ais523> I've converted images into whatever that text-based X format is before, and edited them with Emacs
02:58:16 <ais523> I'm not sure what the equivalent for objects would be
02:58:29 <elliott_> ais523: an ASCII-ish version of the serialised object?
02:58:31 <Sgeo> I've been meaning to try Oberon
02:58:36 <elliott_> But really, "text" is a bad word.
02:58:45 <Sgeo> I tried to try it, but I remember having problems
02:58:47 <elliott_> Programmers think: text, string, and they think of... well, strings.
02:58:52 <ais523> editing the serialised version of something directly is a hack
02:58:59 <elliott_> ais523: so is editing xbm in Emacs
02:59:00 <elliott_> It's arbitrary to say that text is a bunch of Unicode codepoints
02:59:06 <ais523> elliott_: no, that's what I mean
02:59:11 <ais523> what I was doing was a hack, in a way
02:59:24 <elliott_> ais523: Well, the more idiomatic version would be looking at it in an object inspector
02:59:26 <ais523> also, bold is ESC [ 1 m
02:59:29 <elliott_> And poking around changing things
02:59:55 <elliott_> Basically I think strings as we see them in modern systems don't appear naturally in @ much at all
03:00:04 <elliott_> because "document segment" works just as well
03:00:05 <ais523> hmm... I suppose the problem is that objects never really have the interfaces you want them to have
03:00:10 <elliott_> Why can't you name a bookmark with a bolded wrod in it?
03:00:27 <elliott_> With a video? (ok, not lookupable -- this isn't SpectateSwamp Desktop Search -- but the point remains)
03:00:27 <ais523> because the name would be a pain to type
03:00:34 <ais523> elliott_: gah you mentioned SSDS
03:00:36 <elliott_> ais523: you don't have to type names in full
03:00:40 <ais523> in an appropriate context
03:00:54 <elliott_> But basically, the point is that strings are only common because our I/O interfaces do strings.
03:01:17 <elliott_> Most of the time, you just want to print/show something, or to read something, and in @ you don't need to coerce things into Unicode codepoints to do that
03:01:18 <ais523> how do you access things in SSDS, anyway? I know that everything is named with videos, but it seems a little unwieldy
03:01:25 <elliott_> ais523: you just give them tags, I think
03:01:29 <ais523> (originally filmed with camcorder pointed at screen)
03:01:37 <ais523> elliott_: that seems altogether too sane
03:01:52 <elliott_> ais523: SSDS = grep with automatic video playing, I think
03:02:07 <elliott_> "SS claims SSDS is a "desktop search" application. However, SSDS qualifies as "desktop search" only in SS's own definition and when using SS's own computer usage patterns; it does not qualify as a "desktop search" application in any other definition of the term. In most definitions, a "desktop search" system indexes the user's personal files, extracts metadata from the files, and allows the user to perform searches on this metadata; for example, "songs
03:02:07 <elliott_> by a composer called John" or "instant messaging conversations that mention pizza" or "email about Project X". SSDS, on the other hand, requires the user to convert all data to plain text format, thus losing all formatting and metadata, and merge everything in one file. For certain operations, the user is required to maintain such index themselves. Further, ordinary desktop search systems allow the user to see all metadata, such as "this matching song
03:02:07 <elliott_> is 4:33 long" or "the last pizza conversation took place yesterday" or "the boss mailed to you about Project X using Microsoft LookOut, the bastard"; SSDS only allows you to see matching likes in SSDS index file. For example, if you search for "Project X", it is difficult to see when, by who, and (for example) with what program the e-mail was sent with."
03:02:12 <elliott_> -- http://www.thestupidestmanonearth.com/DesktopSearch.aspx
03:02:16 <elliott_> "At best, SSDS is a simplistic linear search application that attempts to match search terms against a text file - and with extra features that allows the user to show images and videos, also in random order."
03:02:23 <elliott_> heh, so it doesn't even play the videos you mention
03:02:44 <ais523> because that much SSDS is too much for me
03:02:50 <zzo38> Well, yes, the UNIX stuff with pipes and grep and so on works much better. But, of course, that is UNIX. SSDS is a similar (but not as well designed) things for Windows.
03:03:05 <zzo38> And anyways you can do that stuff on Windows by using Cygwin or whatever, too.
03:03:17 <elliott_> unfortunately, they're less effective on bytes
03:03:27 <ais523> elliott_: have you seen PowerShell?
03:03:38 <elliott_> ais523: yes; good ideas, but it's not usable
03:03:39 <Sgeo> There shouldn't be just stdin and stdout if you're putting in pipes
03:03:45 <Sgeo> ais523, I haven't
03:03:48 <zzo38> You can have one command that shuffles the lines of stdin and that way, you can play videos in random order.
03:03:56 <ais523> I have the feeling that someone at Microsoft thought of @, realised they'd never be able to implement it, and wrote PowerShell instead
03:04:05 * elliott_ notes http://okmij.org/ftp/Computation/monadic-shell.html
03:04:06 <ais523> which is unusable for most operations because it doesn't really mesh with things well
03:04:18 <ais523> zzo38: it's called shuf(1)
03:04:36 <elliott_> ais523: I have a feeling @ is the kind of thing many people start thinking about, but then realise what they're doing and quickly stop
03:04:39 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, then use that.
03:04:39 <ais523> elliott_: PowerShell is apparently very useful for Windows administration merely because it can access things like the registry easily that other tools can't
03:04:59 <elliott_> Unfortunately, I wasn't clever enough to stop, and now I have to implement it
03:05:09 <elliott_> With barely no knowledge of standard PC hardware and OS design to start with
03:05:31 <elliott_> Incidentally, oklopol's probably-long-abandoned OS that he talked about ages ago has similarities to @
03:05:40 <ais523> elliott_: anyway, I think I've figured out what a capability is, at the hardware level; it's simply a bit pattern stored /in a memory location that lets it be used as a pointer to an object/
03:06:09 <ais523> gah, I'm tired, my eyes read there as being an unmatched opening paren in my last line, and there aren't any parens at all
03:06:16 <ais523> I just keep seeing one for some reason
03:06:18 <ais523> and I can't even work out where
03:06:24 <zzo38> mediaplayer `ls *.ogv | shuf`
03:06:30 <elliott_> ais523: A capability is a pointer, pretty much; which ends up as bits in memory that are interpreted in a certain way
03:06:50 <ais523> and it's distinguished by an integer with the same value by the type system
03:06:52 <zzo38> elliott_: Yes, or echo will do too
03:07:01 <elliott_> ais523: Well, integers have tag bits in @.
03:07:03 <ais523> as this is standard hardware, the type system is being checked at "compile time" (actually "convert to x86 machine instrucitons time")
03:07:23 <ais523> whether that's upon editing, or much later
03:07:48 <zzo38> No... echo won't do
03:07:50 <elliott_> it'll be agonising when/if @ is "done"-ish, but has insufficient compatibility layers to actually use day-to-day
03:08:01 <elliott_> zzo38: oh right; you need them separated by \n
03:08:01 <zzo38> Because echo put everyone on one line
03:08:15 <elliott_> (fun fact: TUNES wanted a DOS emulator to start with)
03:08:28 <ais523> did you know that Linux has two syscalls that only exist for dosemu?
03:08:55 <ais523> they both put an x86 system into virtual 8086 mode (with different parameters), and fail with ENOSYS on any other sort of system
03:09:09 * elliott_ has configured a kernel before, shockingly enough
03:09:19 <ais523> heh, I didn't realise they were involved in kernel config
03:09:39 <elliott_> I think it mentions vm86 or something
03:09:41 <pikhq> elliott_: Most of the traditional knowledge on OS design you've already thrown out the window.
03:09:59 <pikhq> I did say "traditional".
03:10:01 <elliott_> The low-level details are what matter to me, anyway. :p
03:10:07 <elliott_> And orthogonal persistence does have quite the bit of literature on it.
03:10:11 <ais523> it's similar to Smalltalk
03:10:18 <ais523> more so than typical OSes
03:10:27 <ais523> elliott_: I know, I was agreeing with you
03:10:28 <pikhq> Yes, you're ignoring the low-level details that are really painful to deal with.
03:10:32 <elliott_> ais523: incidentally, one of my main worries about @ is that non-programmers won't be able to learn it, but...
03:10:34 <zzo38> What would be the algorithm to find the best way to use registers in a DVI file?
03:10:39 <pikhq> Most obviously, dealing with hardware's task switching.
03:10:40 <ais523> I still like programs to be serialisable as text, incidentally
03:10:52 <pikhq> Still will need to handle paging, though.
03:10:54 <elliott_> ais523: I think @ just has a learning curve, maybe a larger one than most common OSes, but it'll confuse you less once you learn it and you'll be able to accomplish so much more
03:11:10 <elliott_> Sharing over IRC? Yes, desirable, but this is a limitation of IRC.
03:11:14 <ais523> elliott_: fun fact: GNU Hurd was originally aimed at 32-bit processors, because 16-bit was common then and they wanted to future-proof
03:11:17 <elliott_> (@-chat would just share objects)
03:11:28 <monqy> isn't it possible to make a non-porgrammers friendly shell over @
03:11:37 <pikhq> ais523: The same is true of the rest of GNU.
03:11:45 <elliott_> monqy: Sure, but that wouldn't be @... what's the difference between programmer and user?
03:11:58 <pikhq> ais523: Their idea was "by the time this is usable, 16-bit will be an old piece of shit, so why care now?"
03:12:03 <ais523> elliott_: I think it's because it makes them easier to store on a wide range of devices (including things that aren't computer-related at all), and a wide range of implementations
03:12:05 <elliott_> monqy: If you want I can paste you an explanation of @ I wrote semi-recently into /msg (it's long)
03:12:13 <ais523> pity they didn't start with 64 bits instead
03:12:19 <elliott_> ais523: What non-computer-related devices is it easier for?
03:12:24 <elliott_> And you mean codepoints, not text.
03:12:25 <pikhq> It's a bit of an easier jump, though.
03:12:27 <ais523> elliott_: writing down on paper
03:12:35 <pikhq> Especially if you consider x86.
03:12:41 <elliott_> ais523: Um, you've used paper before, right?
03:12:43 <ais523> and I mean what exists on my keyboard
03:12:44 <elliott_> You can draw boxes and things there.
03:12:48 <pikhq> Segmentation to a flat memory model was one *hell* of a jump.
03:12:49 <ais523> elliott_: not reliably
03:13:04 <elliott_> ais523: Well, that's different; keyboard-inputs are one ... view of @ code.
03:13:04 <ais523> you can be off by a millimetre or too really easily
03:13:17 <ais523> the set of characters in printable ASCII has better error correction
03:13:20 <elliott_> Basically it would be reifying the intentions. (elliott buzzword!)
03:13:34 <monqy> elliott_: sure. as-is i only have a really vague idea of @ that i can't really describe
03:13:34 <elliott_> ais523: basically you want to be able to get the actions that are required to recreate some code
03:13:41 <ais523> elliott_: yes, I think so
03:13:51 <ais523> including in an implementation that nobody currently envisages
03:13:54 <elliott_> ais523: Well, that's not necessarily text, but.
03:13:58 <elliott_> ais523: oh, well that's a lot harder
03:14:12 <elliott_> ais523: what you want is, I think, something that's not actually possible, but not something that /should/ necessarily be possible
03:14:16 <ais523> in particular, I don't want it to be just a serialised form of the internals of something
03:14:19 <elliott_> But you can achieve what you want in _specific_ situations
03:14:27 <elliott_> But it'd depend on /interfaces/
03:15:10 <ais523> well, you can, in that I think that even, say, 100 years into the future, no matter what formats and interfaces people are actually using, they'll have some way to represent sequences of octets
03:15:15 <ais523> to store old files "unchanged"
03:15:33 <ais523> and you'll probably be able to get C89 compilers, even if they're seen as something antiquated and only of academic interest
03:15:43 <elliott_> does anyone know how to convert BBCode or HTML to Markdown that uses footer links?
03:15:45 <elliott_> I want to paste this to monqy :P
03:15:49 <ais523> even @ could plausibly have a C89 compiler, although there wouldn't be much reason to use it
03:16:07 <elliott_> ais523: I plan some kind of "weakly-integrated" POSIX layer out of necessity]
03:16:14 <zzo38> ais523: Maybe in case you want to run C programs
03:16:35 <monqy> why would anyone ever want to do that
03:16:39 <ais523> zzo38: I would say you'd missed the point, but then I'd have to describe what the point is, and I'm not sure I can
03:18:15 <oerjan> this elusive point, so hard to describe
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03:18:59 <monqy> speaking of crazy possible future things, does anyone know what logs have stuff relating to feather? I'm suddenly really curious
03:19:08 <elliott_> monqy: hmm, I'm really tempted to just put this up as HTML somewhere
03:19:08 -!- azaq23 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
03:19:38 <elliott_> monqy: did you find that files-suck.html too narrow as well as ais
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03:21:18 <monqy> I'm not really sure what it's getting at as a solution
03:21:52 <elliott_> monqy: i was talking about the view
03:22:43 <monqy> I can see it just fine
03:22:47 <ais523> also, saying that existing abstractions are bad is OK even if you don't have something better to suggest
03:24:03 <monqy> right but i also didn't understand how saying something is bad could possibly be "too narrow" so I pulled some miserable conclusion jumpery
03:27:39 <elliott_> does anyone have a unicode return arrow
03:30:13 <monqy> and on greping for feather in logs, is this with the expectation that i have every log file :(
03:31:54 <elliott_> exclamation mark logs to get them all
03:32:00 <elliott_> ok does anyone have a place for me to put this html file
03:32:08 <elliott_> monqy: also, install Bitstream Chartered it is good font
03:38:04 <elliott_> monqy: also do you have bitstream charter this is totes important
03:38:26 <monqy> i searched fro it but then it wanted me to buy it for $99 i think i did something wrong
03:38:33 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep.
03:38:55 <elliott_> monqy: its in your package manager
03:38:57 <Sgeo> I should put the Cygwin installer on my desktop or something
03:39:26 <elliott_> monqy: xfonts-scalable or something
03:39:40 <elliott_> monqy: oh, texlive-fonts-recommended should get you it
03:39:51 <elliott_> that give syou postscript fonts
03:40:58 <monqy> help i dont use debia n o rhwat ever that is help
03:41:15 <monqy> maybe i secretly already have it but never knew
03:41:31 <monqy> arhclinux is that bad
03:42:15 <elliott_> monqy: pacman -S xorg-fonts-type1
03:43:14 <monqy> at least i dont use (worse distributuieon here)
03:44:18 <elliott_> that's literally just my forum post reformatted and with one bit crossed out
03:45:01 <elliott_> monqy: meh, do you have a gpg key
03:45:10 <monqy> i forget if i ever bothered
03:45:31 <monqy> are there any good distributions i am honestly completely dumb at knowing things about them
03:45:41 <Sgeo> Opa's do statement seems a bit magical :(
03:45:48 <elliott_> I use Debian because it works unlike Arch
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03:46:22 <monqy> i glanced at opa then decided it is not for me
03:46:44 <monqy> learning ur and a bunch of other unrelated languages first at the very least
03:46:46 <elliott_> don't download that i havent stled the hr yet
03:46:56 <oerjan> > fix$var.("yay! "++).show.(:[])
03:46:57 <lambdabot> yay! [yay! [yay! [yay! [yay! [yay! [yay! [yay! [yay! [yay! [yay! [yay! [yay...
03:47:00 <monqy> too late but i havent started viewing it yet
03:47:10 <Lymee> > "\^AACTION hugs elliott_\^A"
03:48:03 <elliott_> my mistake will, never be known,
03:48:54 <elliott_> > text "\^AACTION hugs elliott_\^A"
03:49:43 <zzo38> I think the control characters are stripped
03:50:33 <oerjan> ^ul (<CTCP>ACTION may or may not still work.<CTCP>)S
03:50:33 * fungot may or may not still work.
03:51:12 <Lymee> !python print "test"
03:51:37 <elliott_> monqy: btw this is from March, so of course @ has changed almost entirely since then :)
03:51:42 <oerjan> EgoBot definitely doesn't work with ACTION any more.
03:51:51 <elliott_> monqy: also that <del> is from my editing of it right now
03:51:57 <Lymee> !python print "<CTCP>ACTION test<CTCP>"
03:52:21 <Sgeo> elliott_, this is WTFy on Homestuck
03:52:23 <elliott_> oop was even a bad way to describe what i was thinking about in the time
03:52:28 <elliott_> Sgeo: oh thanks for the reminder
03:52:32 <Sgeo> There's no way to access current update from previous update
03:52:37 <elliott_> monqy: sorry i cannot answer your questions for about ten minutes I must READ HOMESTUCK
03:53:21 <elliott_> oh my god the top-left panel Sgeo click it
03:53:33 <monqy> good thing i hate homestuck
03:54:02 <elliott_> monqy: when did your opinion develop from nonplussedness to hatred
03:54:19 <monqy> elliott_: when i tried reading it after expressing nonplusedness
03:54:34 <oerjan> `addquot <elliott_> its UNEBARBEL
03:54:39 <oerjan> `addquote <elliott_> its UNEBARBEL
03:54:40 <HackEgo> 540) <elliott_> its UNEBARBEL
03:54:40 * elliott_ prepares for answer he's already guessed
03:54:55 <monqy> i think i started roughly where i left off i.e. somewhere in the middle maybe
03:55:27 <monqy> then i skipped around a bit because i am an awful person
03:55:35 <elliott_> (plenty of people think they're about half-way through but are actually in the first act)
03:56:24 <elliott_> you should start it again and go until at least the game that starts act four. it starts out boring but it really does develop. and skipping around is just going to confuse you.
03:56:44 <oerjan> <elliott_> is nonplusedness a word <-- no, it needs another s, but then it's a doubleplusgood word.
03:57:21 <monqy> i dont hate things for being confused by them
03:57:51 <elliott_> i never said that's why you hated it but obviously it is completely inconceivable that someone could actually hate homestuck
03:58:06 <Lymee> <CTCP><CTCP><CTCP>
03:58:09 <elliott_> (ok probably not. i doubt there's many people who actually hate homestuck while liking sbahj, though.)
03:58:09 <Lymee> What does that do?
03:59:10 <monqy> i cant fully remember why i hate it but i remember finding the troll gimmicks insufferable and having to pay attention and care to understand things didn't help and it always felt really awkward to me like it's trying too hard or something idk
04:00:04 <monqy> it is only a mild hatered
04:00:39 <elliott_> the gimmicks are meant to be insufferable, there's a bookmarklet thing that normalifies it though... but really, 99 percent of things that would class as "trying too hard" I'd say are jokes that only make sense with the context, assuming that was during skipping around
04:00:43 <elliott_> oh well I'll just conclude you're subhuman
04:01:13 <Sgeo> !@#$ broken update
04:01:15 <elliott_> there's a lot of trying-too-hard near the start too but that's mostly intentional to set the scene
04:01:33 <Sgeo> !@#$ crashed MSPA site
04:01:59 <monqy> one thing i classify as trying too hard that is maybe not in the typical normal nonsubhuman definition: i mean when it tries to take itself too seriously
04:02:36 <Sgeo> Chrome: Stop having troubles connecting
04:02:37 <monqy> in addition to the other stuff at the beginning yeah
04:02:37 <elliott_> monqy: considering that almost all the major plot developments are sandwiched by jokes, I dunno if that's true
04:02:46 <elliott_> but really you should start again and just go through it all in order, it really picks up in act three, act four, and act five act two (in that order)
04:02:53 <elliott_> MAYBE YOU DON'T HAVE A SPARE WEEK THOUGH
04:03:20 <monqy> clases ends next week
04:03:38 <monqy> subhumans like me learn school during the sumer
04:04:26 <Sgeo> CHROME: STOP HAVING TROUBLE WITH MSPA
04:04:26 -!- elliott_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
04:04:29 -!- elliott has joined.
04:04:53 <elliott> but really, homestuck has issues, and they're mostly pacing issues. and the first three acts are kind of a drag, although pretty funny.
04:04:53 <Sgeo> elliott, how many working panels were there? Just one (Jade)?
04:05:07 <elliott> monqy: but personally i'd be surprised if you didn't like it if you gave it a chance from the very start to the end
04:07:12 <elliott> Sgeo: ok im waiting for the site to stabilise before reading
04:07:23 * Sgeo is too impatient for that
04:07:32 <elliott> monqy: ANYWAY THAT @ EXPLANATION HUH
04:07:37 * Sgeo may be part of the problem
04:07:46 <monqy> sorry i was too busy trying to rationalize my subhuman hatred of homestuck
04:07:59 <monqy> anyway i';ll finsih reading it after brushing my teeth i have to do that now
04:08:13 <elliott> monqy: you should start from the beginning >:|
04:08:14 <Sgeo> ....finish reading it? In less than 6 hours?
04:08:16 <elliott> (i realise you weren't serious)
04:08:43 <Sgeo> elliott, what's a reasonable amount of time to read all of Homestuck?
04:08:50 <Sgeo> I think I did it in less than a week
04:09:07 <elliott> Sgeo: um well it's about twenty hours of consecutive effort
04:09:32 <elliott> let's say twenty four hours of consecutive effort
04:09:36 <elliott> so if you put in five hours a day you can read it in five dyas
04:11:09 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/oh8Fl.png <-- meanwhile, reddit discovers the least tasteful way to do a remembrance comic ever
04:11:12 <Sgeo> I know this instability is Hussie trolling us
04:12:35 <monqy> 1) i meant finish reading at.html (2) haha just kidding about doing it after brushing my teeth i have other stuff to do also woops
04:12:53 <Sgeo> elliott, link to thread?
04:13:05 <elliott> monqy: but it's...short...
04:17:42 <elliott> how do you mix an rgb with an rgba using the alpha im dumb
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04:20:00 <fizzie> "old.r * (1-alpha) + new.r * alpha" (plus same for g/b) is very traditional.
04:20:17 <elliott> fizzie: (I've pushed configurable colours and blockinfo to mcmap)
04:20:18 <Sgeo> elliott, I expect you to be psychic and realize that I want a link
04:20:33 <elliott> fizzie: Now I'm working on respecting the alpha values in a dumb way by only looking one down
04:21:10 <elliott> fizzie: Also: new is the one with the alpha, right?
04:21:25 <fizzie> Well, it's the one "on top".
04:21:42 <fizzie> And that was assuming the 1 == full opacity scheme, sometimes it's flipped.
04:22:01 <elliott> fizzie: Oh, erm, it's two-five-five = full opacity.
04:22:19 <fizzie> Well, scale as necessary.
04:22:37 <fizzie> (old.r * (255-alpha) + new.r * alpha)/255 or some-such.
04:25:03 <elliott> fizzie: Next thing I work on will be the status bar, to make that blockinfo actually useful beyond the configuration.
04:25:12 <elliott> Which I decided to just put at ~/.mcmap/colors because XDG seriously sucks.
04:25:25 <fizzie> But my ~/.config! (Yeah, that's okay.)
04:25:31 <elliott> Ugh, I still have that horrible bug that shouldn't even be happening.
04:25:33 <elliott> I broke code I didn't even touch.
04:25:42 <elliott> (mode == MAP_MODE_CROSS && map_flags & MAP_FLAG_FOLLOW_Y ? " (follow)" : ""),
04:25:42 <elliott> (mode == MAP_MODE_SURFACE && map_flags & MAP_FLAG_CHOP ? " (chop)" : ""),
04:25:42 <elliott> (map_flags & MAP_FLAG_LIGHTS ? " (lights)" : ""),
04:25:42 <elliott> ((map_flags & MAP_FLAG_LIGHTS) && (map_flags & MAP_FLAG_NIGHT) ? " (night)" : ""));
04:25:44 <elliott> How could this send things like
04:25:51 <elliott> 05:25:11 MODE: surface[GARBLED KANJI]
04:25:56 <elliott> java.io.IOException: Received string length longer than maximum allowed (23040 > 16)
04:26:12 <elliott> I do not even understand it.
04:27:07 <fizzie> Okay, gone for ~12 hours or so. ->
04:27:19 <elliott> fizzie: BUT YOU NEED TO FIX MY BBUGEEE
04:28:51 <Sgeo> Friend post on a tech help forum
04:28:55 <Sgeo> Gives a model number
04:29:02 <Sgeo> Helper asks which model
04:29:30 <elliott> The string is correct, but inject_to_client is fucking it up.
04:30:05 <elliott> fizzie: I think you broke it, man.
04:30:09 <elliott> jshort_write(lenb, conv_len);
04:30:18 <elliott> Or at least, it just changed and it's the FIELD_STRING code.
04:30:30 <Sgeo> How do you nicely tell someone who's trying to help you that they asked a really stupid question?
04:30:41 <fizzie> Could be; I didn't test it too much.
04:31:27 <elliott> fizzie: OK BUT ALSO what's the formula for how many iterations something with alpha N can mix with things below it before it will have no effect.
04:31:34 <elliott> (With byte-sized colour and alpha components.)
04:31:39 <elliott> I want to ~optomize~ alpha blending.
04:33:23 <fizzie> Depends on the original color, I suppose.
04:33:34 <fizzie> "Until the target color equals the new color" is the easy test, but due to rounding-down that's probably a bit too conservative.
04:35:16 <fizzie> Oh yes, I did in fact break it.
04:35:16 <Sgeo> Well, my friend answered it
04:35:28 <fizzie> It needs to be conv_len/2.
04:35:40 <Sgeo> "Really... I give you a model number and I'm asked which one is it?"
04:35:54 <Sgeo> Then he answered it... again
04:36:13 <elliott> fizzie: Committing a fix or I?
04:36:17 <Sgeo> Why am I teling you this
04:36:27 <fizzie> You do it, I'm about to miss my bus.
04:36:37 <fizzie> Feel free to put in a disparaging commit message.
04:36:57 <fizzie> Something about everyone else always having to clean up after me or something.
04:37:30 <elliott> fizzie: I'll just include your address and tell everyone to send the bombs that-away.
04:40:23 <zzo38> I think I realized what is wrong with my optimization algorithm, although I do not know how to make a proper algorithm. I can explain by example.
04:41:02 <zzo38> Say that there is a command - which does the next letter, = which does the next letter and sets a register to its value, and . which does the value of the register.
04:41:13 <zzo38> -a-a-a-a-a-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a
04:41:27 <zzo38> To optimize using my current algorithm might do like:
04:42:01 <zzo38> =a....-b-b-b-b-b-b-b............
04:42:09 <zzo38> Due to the way it computes the scoring. But better would be:
04:42:21 <zzo38> =a....=b......=a...........
04:43:12 <zzo38> That is a simple circumstance, and actually there are other complications such as stack and multiple registers, and a lot more ways of interleaving. So, how to make up the proper algorithm?
04:44:44 <elliott> zzo38: I think you just have to do reordering
04:45:06 <zzo38> elliott: What do you mean? Can you give examples?
04:45:16 <oerjan> well looking at -a-a-a. vs. =a..=b it seems like you should always do = if you have a run of 3 or more?
04:45:19 <elliott> zzo38: You just have to iterate it, don't you?
04:45:54 <zzo38> There are other complications. Although I will try oerjan's suggestion.
04:46:12 <oerjan> -a-a. =a.=b seems to indicate it's harmless to do so with 2 as well
04:46:15 <zzo38> It would make sense. However the other complications might cause it to fail; I don't know for sure.
04:47:27 <oerjan> if you have something like -a-a-b-c-a-d-a-a it might get trickier...
04:47:34 <monqy> im returned from not being here. at.html time??
04:47:37 <oerjan> you probably want to save only a there
04:48:12 <zzo38> For example, let's say there might be two or three or four letters for some commands. And that, you might have two registers. And a stack that saves the values of the registers but has other effects too. And, yes, also your other example -a-a-b-c-a-d-a-a
04:48:40 <zzo38> (Or even remove the first -a and the problem still holds)
04:48:53 <monqy> elliott: write it in zepto...
04:49:43 <Sgeo> It is alarming that my computer keeps running low on memory
04:49:57 <oerjan> zzo38: well if you have _enough_ complications you probably end up with something NP-complete.
04:50:39 <Sgeo> Chrome, Y U EAT SO MUCH RAM?
04:52:00 <Sgeo> Sgeo, Y U NO PUT NO IN Y U?
04:54:33 <monqy> elliott: finsihed. unrelated to design, but are any languages even suited to implementing it?
04:54:50 <elliott> monqy: Existing languages? No.
04:55:11 <zzo38> Although this is an analogy, it is close enough to the problem I am having. Now let's extend this system. Each name can be from one to four letters long, and these values are stored in the register. Say there are two registers, where "=" sets the "." register and "+" sets the "," register. Now add "[" and "]" which push the values of the registers onto the stack and pop. However, "[" and "]" have other side effects and you *cannot* change or mo
04:55:23 <elliott> monqy: There are two bootstrap options: Write a minimal interpreter for @lang in assembly (C is not an option at any stage), write a @lang compiler with that, switch to it;
04:55:41 <elliott> monqy: Or implement @lang somehow in existing OSes (is this even possible? Maybe just a facade of @lang), implement a @lang compiler in that, port it over.
04:55:53 <elliott> monqy: That's what the lower layer is being written in, yes.
04:56:00 <elliott> Which won't be much, once @lang is up and running.
04:56:12 <zzo38> (This is equivalent to the problem as long as you assume that there can possibly be up to 256 "letters" of the "alphabet")
04:56:21 <elliott> monqy: Probably nasm, but it'll be replaced by an assembler written for and in @ when all is said and done.
04:56:30 * Sgeo wants to learn more about @lang
04:56:48 <elliott> Sgeo: If you find out, let me know.
04:57:02 <monqy> making a compiler for a high-level language in assembly sounds like a pain
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04:57:13 <Sgeo> This makes me wonder if one could make a language that requires solving an unsolved problem just to see the complete specs
04:57:26 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
04:57:32 <elliott> monqy: But the other bootstrapping route sounds like a pain, too :)
04:57:41 <elliott> monqy: This is why I'm picking a simpler language than @lang for one of the initial prototypes.
04:57:46 <elliott> A Lisp, say; not that hard to do in assembly.
04:57:53 <elliott> Wildly inadequate, but I have to start somewhere.
04:59:18 <monqy> hard? maybe not. painful? I'd imagine so. maybe assembly just isn't my thing. I'd rather make myself a simple compiler than write it directly.
04:59:31 <elliott> monqy: Sure, if it's Lisp I can go tha troute.
05:00:33 <monqy> this reminds me, I really have to remember my ideas for the serious prgoramming langauge i hope to make sometime to solve all of my problems forever.
05:00:34 <zzo38> Would you know any ideas about the proper algorithm to solve my problem now? It is more complicated now that I added that stuff.
05:01:24 <oerjan> zzo38: i doubt i know, but you also got cut off after "and you *cannot* change or mo"
05:02:04 <zzo38> ... you *cannot* change or move them!
05:02:53 <oerjan> zzo38: ok. that means the only the only thing you could adjust with [ and ] are which values are pushed and popped
05:04:15 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes. You cannot move, add, or remove, any [ and ] commands yourself.
05:04:51 <oerjan> hm the value of the registers after the [ will be precisely the same as after the matching ]
05:04:55 <zzo38> But changing other commands can change what values are saved with the [ and restored with ]
05:05:10 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes that is correct.
05:05:17 <oerjan> so you can think of it as a kind of three branching instead of stack manipulation
05:07:02 <oerjan> A [ B ] C becomes a tree with commands A at the root and two branches with B and C respectively
05:07:44 <zzo38> Yes, that would work, I think.
05:07:44 <oerjan> where B and C might contain further branching
05:08:27 <oerjan> well also A, in which case [B] C belongs to A's last branch
05:12:18 <oerjan> hm if names have different lengths that also is a complication - it may be cheaper to save (and so reuse) a longer name
05:12:41 <zzo38> Yes I have realized that, too, already.
05:13:06 <zzo38> (I didn't realize the tree stuff at first but now that you explain it makes sense and I agree)
05:14:33 <oerjan> i still have a suspicion this _might_ be NP-complete
05:16:29 <elliott> everything interesting, at least
05:17:17 <elliott> monqy: btw will you use @ i need committed users for funding
05:20:08 <monqy> at least i'll play around with it and maybe implement stuff if not use it regularly (it would be hard to use it regularly without stuff implemented)
05:23:47 <elliott> monqy: stuff implemented but but it'll have a web browser, an irc client, and a posix layer WHAT MORE DO YOU NEED WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM MEEEEEEE
05:25:32 <zzo38> oerjan: You might be correct about NP-complete.
05:26:04 <monqy> elliott: it depends on if it's usable for me (if not i'd like it to be usable for me)
05:26:09 <monqy> intentionally vague
05:26:11 <zzo38> However it probably can still halt.
05:26:17 <monqy> because i do not know exactly what makes things usable for me
05:26:27 <elliott> it's going to be so homestuck you have no idea
05:27:19 <zzo38> Would you know if there are other channels that they can also help with these kind of algorithms?
05:27:50 <oerjan> zzo38: well yes. one obviously could use the algorithm of iterating through all possibilities of =, + and - at each spot where the name isn't already in the register, and that would halt but probably be exponential.
05:29:13 <monqy> i only read the first 2 or 3 days of feather chat but i think i know enough now to say it's insane
05:29:26 <zzo38> That is why I would want to figure out if there is better things
05:29:35 <elliott> monqy: keep reading btw, you'll see ais gradually go completely insane
05:30:19 <oerjan> zzo38: i'm not frequenting any optimization channels, alas.
05:30:33 <monqy> i like the part where the guy skeptics all over feather and then likes php
05:30:50 <monqy> this is because i am a horrible person
05:31:17 <oerjan> monqy: you like to see movies where people fall into sewers and die, i take.
05:31:32 <monqy> elliott: btw whats the everyday sense of insane
05:32:30 <elliott> monqy: the sense that isn't used in the idiotic sense of "LOL WE'RE ALL CRAZY HERE BECAUSE WE AM LIKE ESOLANGS"
05:32:38 * elliott STARES AT OERJAN FOR NO REASON
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05:33:21 <elliott> <monqy> i like the part where the guy skeptics all over feather and then likes php
05:33:23 <monqy> elliott: so the good sense
05:34:59 * oerjan hits elliott with the saucepan ===\__/
05:35:11 <monqy> the one where ais explains how feather has no primitives or syntax and RodgerTheGreat claims it impossible and ehird accuses him of hating most non-Java non-BASIC languages
05:36:04 <oerjan> no syntax either? oh dear.
05:37:05 <elliott> monqy: rodgerthegreat is a bad person
05:37:27 <elliott> ./combined:20:49:49: * tusho watches RodgerTheGreat come and say "THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE! JUST LIKE FEATHER!"
05:37:43 <monqy> 17:24:06: <RodgerTheGreat> ehird: utterly untrue. I like BF, ///, LOGO, PHP, Postscript, LUA and some of my own languages, in addition to Java and BASIC
05:37:59 <elliott> 00:14:41: <ehird> I love JS too :D
05:38:00 <elliott> WHY DID I SAY THIS i must have been joking
05:38:15 <elliott> SORRY IF YOU THINK LESS OF ME
05:38:45 <monqy> what year was this i think i was an idiot back then
05:39:18 <elliott> monqy: two thousand and eight
05:39:36 <monqy> yeah i was probably most certainly an idiot. i don't want to think about it.
05:39:40 <elliott> hmm, something is reminding me to play nethack again. prolly ais talking about acehack
05:39:55 <elliott> monqy: DO YOU PLAY ANY ROGUELIKES i bet your taste in roguelikes is as bad as your taste in webcomics >:(
05:40:20 <elliott> i think you talked about roguelikes once
05:40:32 <monqy> anyway i don't know of any roguelikes i like
05:41:12 <elliott> youre avoiding answering because you have bad taste
05:41:35 <elliott> google "monqy nethack" -> oh god results for crawl
05:41:38 <monqy> i dont really play crawl anymore but i hang around in ##crawl
05:41:47 <elliott> i cant talk to you any mor
05:42:03 <monqy> i actualyl dislike crawl
05:42:07 <monqy> does that make you feel better
05:42:16 <elliott> one of the results from that google highlighted this part of crawl learndb
05:42:16 <elliott> Still believes that Nethack is the most popular roguelike.
05:42:16 <elliott> Also believes that the earth is flat.
05:42:16 <elliott> Happens to maintain a Nethack fork, UnNethack. If you're curious how a Nethack with some thoughts spent on balance could look like, give it a try: http://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/unnethack/
05:42:17 <elliott> Is on the record as stating that he is not a shark.
05:42:24 <elliott> monqy: maybe a bit...........
05:42:41 <elliott> i know ais has been like kicked from crawl-dev several times for "trolling" so i have to MILDLY DISLIKE YOU...
05:43:09 <monqy> I think I've been kicked once and muted once. does that help.
05:43:13 <elliott> <monqy> 17:24:06: <RodgerTheGreat> ehird: utterly untrue. I like BF, ///, LOGO, PHP, Postscript, LUA and some of my own languages, in addition to Java and BASIC
05:43:16 <elliott> this must be from the day before
05:43:46 <monqy> are there any good roguleikkes
05:43:49 <elliott> monqy: how anal are those guys even
05:44:05 <elliott> it's so beautiful you have no idea.
05:44:22 <elliott> monqy: good luck with that
05:44:27 <elliott> monqy: its mine its in python but it's GOLFED PYTHON
05:44:38 <elliott> i should work on that sometime
05:44:47 <elliott> maybe make it use perlin noise instead of just... random() to generate the map
05:44:49 <monqy> as for those guys do you mean the players or the developers
05:45:44 <monqy> varies between okay and insufferable?? i dunno
05:46:40 <monqy> where is vagrant i am bad at finding it
05:47:20 <elliott> monqy: it is not online :(
05:47:21 <monqy> i addded ehird but google thought i meant third i will put quotes around it
05:47:40 <elliott> i think i coerced cheater into pasting the latest version a while back after i lost it by pretending i liked him.
05:52:02 <elliott> 17:22:28: <RodgerTheGreat> If the first thing a language does is define it's own syntax, the syntax for defining syntax IS THE SYNTAX.
05:52:08 <elliott> monqy: you should be so happy you weren't around when this guy was
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05:53:29 <pikhq_> I actually still talk to him fairly regularly.
05:53:38 <monqy> how bad of a person
05:53:47 <pikhq_> Usually, not *too* bad, actually.
05:53:55 <pikhq_> He's developed a strong fondness for Forth.
05:54:29 <elliott> isn't he like only four years older than me or something, i seem to recall him ranting at me for ages for being immature and blaming it all on my age once
05:54:54 <pikhq_> He's a bit older than that.
05:55:40 <pikhq_> Also, I'm pretty sure that https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Fushigi_no_Dungeon is the most popular roguelike...
06:00:12 <itidus20> the difficult question is at what point does it become opcodes
06:00:35 <elliott> Argh, fizzie is gone for twelve hours.
06:01:09 <itidus20> the non-esoteric languages are usually used for bootstrapping right?
06:01:33 <pikhq_> itidus20: Very few languages actually bootstrap, TBH.
06:01:41 <pikhq_> Well, language implementations.
06:01:44 <itidus20> like unix was used to bootstrap gnu if i understand correctly
06:02:40 <itidus20> i don't "really" understand bootstrapping though
06:03:04 <itidus20> isn't it a physical impossibility to bootstrap something?
06:03:15 <itidus20> rather a systemic impossibility
06:03:25 <itidus20> there was this thing i read somewheer
06:03:35 <pikhq_> To bootstrap something is to build something with itself.
06:03:45 <pikhq_> There is no requirement that your initial build was bootstrapped.
06:04:24 <pikhq_> For instance, you could bootstrap a C compiler written in C, using a C compiler not written in C. (I don't know if such a thing exists. :P)
06:04:28 <elliott> Argh, fizzie, you am done confound me.
06:04:34 <pikhq_> Or, you could compile it *by hand*.
06:04:39 <elliott> pikhq_: zeta c was written in lisp, I think
06:05:02 <itidus20> so one meaning of bootstrap is to have a compiler for a language written in itself then right?
06:05:06 <zzo38> The WEB program is itself written in WEB, although if you have the file TANGLE.PAS then you can start from there and then you can modify TANGLE.WEB and compile (with or without modification) WEAVE.WEB too.
06:05:19 <zzo38> Are there C compilers written in assembly languages?
06:05:32 <pikhq_> zzo38: None notable, at least.
06:06:06 <itidus20> interpreter is probably a better word
06:06:25 <pikhq_> Oh, yeah, you could also have the bootstrapping compiler run on an interpreter.
06:06:44 <zzo38> C interpreter written in assembly language would also work since the C compiler could then compile itself
06:06:53 <pikhq_> I think that's how GHC started off.
06:07:29 <oerjan> itidus20: basically every compiler written in its own language must have been bootstrapped at one point.
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06:08:27 <pikhq_> Frankly, bootstrapping compilers annoy me. I dislike circular dependencies.
06:08:30 <oerjan> although there are several options for how that could happen: a compiler written in another language, an interpreter written in another language, or (probably the very first languages) by hand.
06:08:45 <elliott> anyway it's not circular if it's portable
06:08:53 <pikhq_> elliott: For Linux package management.
06:09:05 <Taneb> Isn't GHC circular?
06:09:07 <pikhq_> elliott: Namely, I dislike GCC having a build dependency on GCC.
06:09:18 <elliott> pikhq_: a package manager that can't handle circular dependencies is broken
06:09:23 <oerjan> itidus20: for example erlang was originally interpreted in prolog (and still has a very similar syntax)
06:09:28 <pikhq_> elliott: Build dependencies.
06:09:48 <itidus20> is the bootstrapped section just the minimum necessary to build the rest?
06:10:35 <itidus20> the thing is when you update a language
06:10:45 <itidus20> and the updates to the language are coded in the language
06:10:48 <elliott> itidus20: you can't use a feature you just implemented in the compiler without bootstrapping
06:11:17 <itidus20> so you begin in say, C/asm, for example..
06:11:26 <pikhq_> elliott: The only way to solve circular build dependencies is manual intervention so that the package depending on itself actually exists before you build it. Which is *really annoying*.
06:11:40 <itidus20> oh i guess it doesn't matter what you begin in
06:11:44 <elliott> pikhq_: or it could install a binary first
06:12:15 <pikhq_> elliott: Yesss, that's manual intervention so that the package depending on itself actually exists before you build it.
06:12:20 <pikhq_> Which is really annoying.
06:12:37 <elliott> pikhq_: no, that's doing it in the package manager
06:12:47 <pikhq_> It's still *really annoying*.
06:13:33 <itidus20> So the fundamental idea though is about initially writing a minimal compiler/interpreter in say: C, C++, Lisp, Haskell, what-have-you.. and using that to compile/interpret a new version of your language
06:13:52 <itidus20> and using that to build your language
06:14:57 <itidus20> I guess that it very much depends on many things.
06:15:23 <itidus20> Like, you wouldn't want to rely on an interpreter running underneath your language
06:15:47 <oerjan> indeed interpreters written in the language itself aren't useful for bootstrapping :P
06:16:11 <oerjan> although there are still uses for those
06:16:36 <itidus20> I can see that you could tell lisp to output asm code for an interpreter.
06:17:06 <oerjan> lisp may have both an interpreter and a compiler for itself, where the interpreter is used for quick running and the compiler is used for optimizing
06:17:46 <oerjan> inside the same implementation
06:17:50 <itidus20> oh i mean.. suppose you wanted to implement a brainfuck interpreter. you wouldn't want to have the interpreter running on top of an interpreter.
06:17:52 <pikhq_> Actually, Lisp almost always has a self-interpreter. That's the "eval" part of REPL. :P
06:18:38 <oerjan> pikhq_: well it _might_ but it could also compile on the fly immediately, like ghc does
06:19:10 <oerjan> although that's still a slightly simpler compilation to bytecode
06:20:28 <itidus20> in any case, i figure you only really want 1 layer of interpreters running most of the time
06:20:46 <oerjan> itidus20: it's ok to use an interpreter to run your initial compiler, though, since that's a one time thing
06:20:47 <itidus20> and 2 for cases wheer it doesn't matter
06:21:22 <elliott> oerjan: sbcl compiles to native code always, fwiw
06:21:56 <itidus20> but you wouldn't really want to load haskell, and then load brainfuck on top of it, and then supply a brainfuck interpreter's source to that
06:23:02 <itidus20> im just not really moving things forward
06:23:18 <oerjan> itidus20: well for esolangs you might want to just because it can be done
06:23:28 <oerjan> (see: my unlambda interpreter in unlambda)
06:23:49 <itidus20> im just in the habit of attaching a value judgement to everything i say
06:27:00 <oerjan> otherwise if you value efficiency you'd want to get a compiler pretty soon, or at least an interpreter that is itself compiled
07:12:11 <Taneb> You know what's odd?
07:12:28 <Taneb> What my brother calls an awkward turtle is different to what I do
07:12:40 <monqy> what's an awkward turtle
07:12:59 <itidus20> a turtle goes into their shell
07:13:01 <Taneb> A hand signal made during awkward silences
07:13:23 <Taneb> The point of it is to change the subject to the awkward turtle
07:13:58 <monqy> those things feel artificial to me. subject changes to how artificial they feel. nobodys happy.
07:14:02 <itidus20> I prefer to make things more awkward and then sink deper into depression
07:15:05 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
07:15:21 <Taneb> To quote David Morgan Mar, "If you find yourself in an awkward silence... Fill it! Say something! Anything! You will never have a better chance to make an awkward situation even more awkward!"
07:16:56 <Taneb> No, I don't think he does
07:17:20 <Taneb> I'm not even sure he's seen the wiki
07:18:03 <ais523> wow, the bloglike section on Mezzacotta hasn't been updated for over a year
07:18:32 <oerjan> of course he has scary time planning powers, so he probably wouldn't fit in something that useless
07:18:36 <itidus20> it's like.. which friggen esolang club does he hang with then?
07:18:48 <ais523> whereas Square Root of Minus Garfield has an update yesterday, so presumably that's still going
07:18:52 <itidus20> i thought this was the only one
07:18:59 <ais523> as does Lightning Made of Owls
07:19:10 <oerjan> itidus20: well afaik all his esolangs are old...
07:19:39 <Taneb> All the webcomics, bar Awkward Fumbles, are active
07:19:49 <Taneb> And Infinity on 30 Credits a Day
07:20:04 <oerjan> ais523: actually LMoO is skipping many updates nowadays
07:20:26 <ais523> something like that, it would astonish me if it came out daily
07:20:34 <ais523> but it's still being updated when there are submisisons
07:22:27 <oerjan> and SRoMG shows no signs of abating
07:24:42 <oerjan> btw the mezzacotta comic is rather dead if you look at the hall of fame section, not enough votes. although just this week some started trickling through.
07:25:08 <pikhq_> Well, sqrt(-garfield) is brilliant.
07:26:22 <itidus20> i actually read some of it before coming here
07:26:52 <itidus20> it really tore apart the comic medium in fun ways
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07:27:14 <pikhq_> itidus20: Also, it's producing something intelligent out of Garfield.
07:27:33 <pikhq_> Which is quite a feat.
07:28:52 <itidus20> I am not sure if I approve of Scott McCloud though. HE should try his hand at esolang though
07:29:08 <pikhq_> Given that Garfield is a comic written for one purpose: making money...
07:29:25 <itidus20> Scott McCloud is the most likely person to publish a book about esolangs :D
07:31:20 <itidus20> I mean Mr. McCloud will never be Jack Kirby or Akira Toriyama.
07:31:47 <oerjan> ok, as far as can see there is no evidence that DMM has ever edited our wiki.
07:32:12 <itidus20> is he somewhat a celeb in esolang terms?
07:32:28 <ais523> itidus20: it's separate, he's an esolang designer /and/ a celebrity
07:32:31 <elliott> he's a celeb in every term. well, apart from the one normal people use.
07:32:32 <ais523> but not famous for esolang design
07:32:40 <elliott> he writes this webcomic :P
07:32:49 <ais523> he writes a somewhat popular webcomic
07:32:57 <Taneb> "Irregular Webcomic!"
07:33:03 <oerjan> and has a heavy hand in several others
07:33:04 <elliott> ais523: Vorpal isn't appreciating this feature I coded into mcmap, probably because he's away; please tell me about how great it is
07:33:13 <itidus20> i actually discovered DMM when I started asking someone a question "theres not really any popular australian websites like google, yahoo etc"
07:33:17 <ais523> elliott: I, umm, don't know what it does and why it's useful
07:33:22 <ais523> but you managed to do something nontrivial in Java
07:33:26 <ais523> that's worth an accolade of itself
07:33:32 <elliott> ais523: who said it was java???
07:33:39 <elliott> ais523: mcmap is a proxy, it's pure retrostyle c99
07:33:40 <ais523> I assumed it was a Minecraft plugin
07:33:44 <elliott> ais523: nah, it's fizzie's project
07:33:46 <ais523> also, "retrostyle c99"?
07:33:48 <elliott> that I also write some stuff for
07:33:48 <itidus20> and i went on wiki and found DMM
07:33:57 <elliott> ais523: yes, fizzie thinks this is the nineties, and does things like use bitshifts instead of division
07:34:03 <elliott> ais523: and mark functions "inline"
07:34:12 <ais523> I use bitshifts instead of division when it's clearer
07:34:33 <ais523> say, if I'm dividing by a large power of 2, it's clearer to write x >> 20 than x / (1 << 20)
07:35:04 <ais523> x >> 1 vs. x / 2, though, they're pretty much equal in terms of legibility
07:35:55 <itidus20> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Australian_websites "Irregular Webcomic!"
07:36:00 <pikhq_> ais523: Yes, but you're using bitshift when, logically, you are shifting bits.
07:36:09 <pikhq_> ais523: Which is only proper.
07:36:21 <coppro> What if the shift is zero-extend?
07:36:34 <elliott> ais523: oh, and he tries to make things thread-safe by marking them volatile
07:36:50 <elliott> pikhq_: dont wnice its amazing
07:37:01 <Taneb> DMM is the most famous esoteric programming language inventor with a PhD in Astrophysics
07:37:09 <pikhq_> That's the "make the compiler stupid" button.
07:37:09 <elliott> i can respect a man who uses macros because he doesn't trust the compiler enough to optimise an inline function
07:37:22 <elliott> pikhq_: well it _is_ a mutex
07:37:44 <ais523> elliott: that, umm, can actualy work sometimes
07:37:50 <Taneb> I lived in Australia for 11 months
07:37:50 <ais523> (making things volatile to make them thread-safe)
07:37:52 <elliott> itidus20: hmm, the most popular australian website may be Whirlpool (it's the only one I can think of off the top of my head)
07:38:00 <elliott> which I'm not sure /why/ it's famous, because it's all about Australian ISPs
07:38:00 <itidus20> we have kangaroos and DMM and isn't afraid of anything
07:38:09 <pikhq_> ais523: And in some cases, it just makes the compiler stupid.
07:38:12 <ais523> but expecting it to happen without knowing why is probably going to end in failure
07:38:14 <elliott> `addquote <itidus20> australia kicks ass <itidus20> we have kangaroos and DMM and isn't afraid of anything
07:38:17 <HackEgo> 541) <itidus20> australia kicks ass <itidus20> we have kangaroos and DMM and isn't afraid of anything
07:38:23 <ais523> elliott: I suspect the most popular Australian website is google.au
07:38:29 <pikhq_> It depends quite heavily on what you're doing.
07:38:30 <elliott> ais523: that's not really an _Australian_ website
07:38:56 * elliott wonders how many Australians are proud of kangaroos despite having never seen one
07:39:07 * ais523 resists urge to say "Google's pretty famous"
07:39:24 <Taneb> Interestingly, there are some feral wallabees in Scotland
07:39:26 <ais523> elliott: they're fairly common in the Australian countryside, aren't they? and even citybound Australians probably see them in zoos
07:39:34 <ais523> even I've seen a kangaroo, in a zoo
07:39:56 <Taneb> I've seen a kangaroo in a zoo... in AUSTRALIA
07:40:01 <itidus20> you don't have to travel far to see one.. you just have to leave the cities
07:40:13 <elliott> ais523: that was a nice rhyme
07:40:18 <itidus20> they're everywhere once you actually get away from suburbia
07:40:26 <ais523> elliott: coincidental, and it doesn't scan properly
07:40:28 <elliott> kangaroo / in a zoo / there's pretty much no way this rhyme isn't going to end up talking about kangaroo poo, so I'm stopping it here
07:40:40 <ais523> which means it's a good rhyme in a bad context to put a rhyme in
07:40:46 <itidus20> everytime you go camping in melbourne you're bound to see one
07:41:30 <itidus20> its just they're not in suburbia
07:41:30 * coppro sees a reasonable path to getting an Erdos-Bacon number of 65
07:41:59 <itidus20> i don't get out much.. but i have seen them in the wild several times
07:42:34 <itidus20> every encounter with a kangaroo tends to be memorable too
07:43:03 <itidus20> i guess they would get boring quickly enough
07:43:48 <elliott> coppro: 65??? WOOOOOOOOOOW
07:44:13 <oerjan> i suspect 65 might actually be _harder_ than 6
07:44:49 <coppro> pikhq_: My father has a Bacon number of 3; there are multiple profs at UW with Erd(I don't know how to compose the accent with my keyboard layout)s numbers of 1
07:45:11 <pikhq_> Here, it's Compose = o
07:45:27 <coppro> pikhq_: Although my father's Bacon number of 3 doesn't apply if you only count credited actors
07:45:38 <oerjan> pikhq_: like in SML iirc
07:45:42 <coppro> (and I haven't run the cast list of the film to see if he actually has a 2)
07:45:48 <pikhq_> Crediting doesn't typically matter for Erdős-Bacon.
07:46:00 <ais523> is it Erdős * Bacon that you're using to do the calculation? or appending digits?
07:46:17 <ais523> so 65 is really quite difficult?
07:46:28 <pikhq_> Unless you have a time machine.
07:46:47 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Page closed).
07:46:49 <pikhq_> Then, you can be enough generations removed to pull it off.
07:47:03 <ais523> I still don't know what my Erdős number is
07:47:20 <ais523> although I'm pretty sure I have one, given that I've coauthored papers with people who have coauthored lots of papers
07:47:21 * pikhq_ really would like for Bacon to appear in a film using stock footage of Erdős.
07:47:33 <ais523> pikhq_: to give the lowest possible value of 1?
07:47:42 <ais523> it'd be funnier if they coauthored a paper
07:47:50 <coppro> ais523: grep https://files.oakland.edu/users/grossman/enp/Erdos2.html
07:47:53 <oerjan> ais523: well i assume you'd have to get a long chain of people to cooperate with each other to get it that high
07:48:10 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
07:48:15 <elliott> * pikhq_ really would like for Bacon to appear in a film using stock footage of Erdős.
07:48:19 <elliott> i think something like that actually happened
07:48:41 <pikhq_> I thought it was just someone with a Bacon number doing that, though.
07:48:41 <Vorpal> <elliott> ais523: Vorpal isn't appreciating this feature I coded into mcmap, probably because he's away; please tell me about how great it is <-- what feature?
07:49:06 <elliott> it's currently broken btw :P
07:49:10 <elliott> oh wait i didn't commit the broken
07:49:11 <pikhq_> Erdős has an Erdős-Bacon number of 3.
07:49:40 <coppro> ais523: oh wait you filter URLs
07:50:07 <ais523> but can still see what they say
07:50:09 <pikhq_> Which is the lowest known Erdős-Bacon number, though a few people have that.
07:50:10 <Sgeo> What counts as a "paper" for Erdos number?
07:50:27 <Sgeo> I did a simple proof with ais523. Does this mean I might have a .. blah
07:50:31 <pikhq_> Sgeo: The *stock* definition is an academic, published paper.
07:50:51 <ais523> well, my Erdős number is at least 4, it seems
07:51:19 <coppro> ais523: clearly we should collaborate and I should get a research term with one of the two profs at UW I know of with 1
07:51:24 <coppro> that will give you a firm 3
07:51:28 <zzo38> Now I will sleep soon. Tell me now or later, if you have more ideas about my optimization problem or any other IRC channels you know that they could discuss these things.
07:51:41 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: >).
07:51:57 <Sgeo> ais523, clearly, we should write a paper >.>
07:52:03 <coppro> (I actually have an eye on one in particular since he both works in an area I'm interested in and taught me last term)
07:52:03 <pikhq_> Oh, sorry, it's any research collaboration resulting in a published work.
07:52:20 <pikhq_> A collaborative, unique proof would probably count.
07:52:23 <ais523> bleh, does that mean that elliott has an Erdős number because I mentioned what I was doing to him?
07:52:34 <elliott> ais523: everyone you have EVER LOOKED AT has an erdos number now
07:52:41 <Sgeo> ais523, is our GoE proof unique?
07:52:58 <ais523> Sgeo: I don't know what you're referring to
07:53:04 <ais523> well, I mean, my coding style is slightly influenced by elliott
07:53:10 <ais523> from being exposed to his programs
07:53:18 <ais523> and I did a lot of programming towards one of the papers
07:53:35 <ais523> (I'm still trying to figure out why I switched from Allman-style braces to K&R-style, though)
07:53:39 <Sgeo> ais523, that thing about any sufficiently small pattern in a bounded Game of Life universe being a result of some Garden of Eden
07:53:46 <ais523> (for when I'm not trolling with EOL braces)
07:53:54 <ais523> Sgeo: it probably isn't new
07:54:01 <ais523> someone else has probably wondered that at some point
07:54:11 <elliott> <ais523> well, I mean, my coding style is slightly influenced by elliott
07:54:15 <elliott> or is this just in a butterfly effect sense
07:54:32 <coppro> Sgeo: what is the result, precisely?
07:54:39 <ais523> elliott: well, I've had style arguments with you, and they help to sharpen my opinions of my own position
07:54:49 <ais523> and I've started using K&R/OTBS style for no obvious reason at all
07:55:02 <elliott> mcmap puts { on the line after branch constructs and it makes me unhappy
07:55:19 <ais523> elliott: I used to do that, because the books I learned C from did
07:55:41 <coppro> I really dislike {-on-its-own-line
07:55:42 <Sgeo> coppro, every sufficiently small (5 width and height smaller than the universe) pattern in a bounded Game of Life universe has at least one Garden of Eden that results in it.
07:55:53 <ais523> coppro: do you really dislike }-on-its-own-line?
07:56:00 <ais523> OTBS is like Perl, it's inconsistent in the name of looking nice
07:56:23 <coppro> Sgeo: interesting. What's the proof?
07:56:29 <coppro> also bounded -> toroidal?
07:56:52 <ais523> hmm, another plausible indentation style is { lined up with if(x), on the same line as the line after, and } at the end of the line, next to the margin (i.e. column 78)
07:57:01 <ais523> I wonder why nobody uses it?
07:57:17 <Sgeo> coppro, yes, although it works with other topologies. And probably also with always-off beyond a point, but not sure, and ais523 wasn't paying attention.
07:57:30 <Sgeo> coppro, let's see if I can remember it offhand. It's somewhere in logs
07:57:33 <coppro> Sgeo: "yes" is not a proof :P
07:57:52 <Sgeo> Yes was to bounded -> toroidal
07:58:16 <ais523> coppro: now I'm trying to think of something that's proved by infinitely many copies of the letter 'y'
07:58:18 <elliott> hey ais523, here's a screenshot you won't understand: http://i.imgur.com/Oygim.png
07:58:28 * itidus20 notes that there is no coding-style applicator editor that i have heard of
07:58:28 <ais523> it could make a decent counterexample to various banal and pointless statemetns
07:58:39 <elliott> <ais523> coppro: now I'm trying to think of something that's proved by infinitely many copies of the letter 'y'
07:58:45 <elliott> "there exists an infinite stream of 'y's"
07:58:51 <elliott> (constructive-style proof)
07:58:53 <ais523> elliott: something vaguely interesting
07:58:58 <elliott> itidus20: you mean a reformatting editor?
07:59:07 <coppro> ais523: The only thing I dislike more than putting opening braces on their own line is putting them on their own line AND indenting them halfway
07:59:09 <elliott> ais523: that there exists infinite anything would be considered interesting to some people
07:59:11 <ais523> itidus20: several programs, like Emacs and Kate, will shuffle lines left and right to comply with a coding style you give them
07:59:20 <ais523> NetBeans, at least, will completely re-pretty-print your program if you tell it to
07:59:45 <ais523> elliott: perhaps you should give ultrafinitists a copy of yes
07:59:49 <ais523> and watch their minds explode
07:59:49 <itidus20> ais: I can independantly discover any feature given enough time
07:59:58 <Sgeo> coppro, in a bounded universe, every pattern is either a oscillator or a precursor to one.
08:00:18 <Sgeo> (counting things like empty universe as an oscillator)
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08:00:34 <ais523> elliott: I assume it's Minecraft-related; the first thing that came into mind when I saw it was that it was a Dwarf Fortress map dump
08:00:42 <ais523> and Minecraft map dumps are likely to look similar
08:00:45 <Sgeo> There are no infinite growth patterns. Eventually, you're going to start repeating.
08:00:47 <ais523> as people do similar things to the map in those games
08:00:55 <coppro> Sgeo: Right. I know that result
08:01:14 <ais523> y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y
08:01:16 <ais523> y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y
08:01:17 <ais523> y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y
08:01:38 <elliott> <ais523> elliott: I assume it's Minecraft-related; the first thing that came into mind when I saw it was that it was a Dwarf Fortress map dump
08:01:44 <elliott> It's not really a dump, more a live view
08:02:14 <elliott> <ais523> elliott: perhaps you should give ultrafinitists a copy of yes
08:02:14 <elliott> <ais523> and watch their minds explode
08:02:25 <elliott> ais523: they'd, unfortunately correctly, probably argue that it was still bound by C's restrictions
08:02:28 <elliott> at least, if they were IN THE KNOW
08:02:33 <elliott> because they know the OS is written in C
08:02:35 <ais523> yes doesn't count its iterations, does it?
08:02:40 <Sgeo> If you take a pattern that's just a precursor, and work "backwards" (for all possibilities of backwards), you can't end up with the same pattern again, otherwise, it wouldn't be a precursor
08:02:53 <elliott> ais523: No, but the OS has to print it out
08:02:57 <ais523> and depending on what you're outputting, the OS doesn't have to either
08:03:06 <ais523> say you're outputting to a parallel printer
08:03:06 <elliott> ais523: OK, but the hardware will still degrade :P
08:03:12 <ais523> it's going to run out of paper eventually, I suppose
08:03:18 <ais523> but the ys will still be there conceptually
08:03:19 <elliott> ais523: You could print to screen and wipe anything that trails off
08:03:21 <Sgeo> You can't go "backwards" infinitely, it has to stop sometime before 2^area
08:03:56 <coppro> ais523: How come Junethack has muted goals in AceHack? Isn't AceHack basically vanilla for the purposes of gameplay?
08:04:09 <Sgeo> So every precursor has a Garden of Eden that results in it.
08:04:15 <ais523> coppro: it's because I didn't want to break save compatibility to add a patch that was implemented really badly
08:04:23 <ais523> so I restricted myself to stuff that the game tracked already
08:04:28 <itidus20> apparently (according to the source of translations of the tipitaka) buddha said that the first being in a realm(not sure if i have this right) assumes himself to be god
08:04:40 <ais523> planning to play in junethack, btw?
08:04:55 <ais523> (I'm still astounded that Slashdot accepted the story)
08:05:00 <Sgeo> Now, for every pattern of a certain size or smaller, you can trivially make a precursor by putting a single live cell outside of causal contact with the pattern. Therefore, the pattern has a precursor, and therefore, there's a Garden of Eden that results in it.
08:05:02 <ais523> elliott: they're not really muted, just slightly different than the other variants
08:05:18 <coppro> elliott: muted meaning less difficult
08:05:30 <elliott> ooh, the submitter of the slashdot submission is the one with that insulting crawl infodb entry
08:05:37 <Sgeo> ais523, did I forget anything/make any mistakes?
08:05:40 <coppro> I thought of that in particular because "beat sokoban" is replaced with "consult the oracle"
08:05:47 <coppro> the others are close to isomorphic
08:05:51 <elliott> (long story involving monqy as to why I know/recall this so recently)
08:05:51 <Sgeo> Or be too long-winded for something simple?
08:06:02 <ais523> Sgeo: I wasn't playing attention
08:06:07 <coppro> oh, the luckstone from mine's end isn't
08:06:09 <ais523> elliott: bhaak is the developer of UnNetHack
08:06:14 <coppro> it's replaced with getting into the quest
08:06:20 <elliott> Still believes that Nethack is the most popular roguelike.
08:06:20 <elliott> Also believes that the earth is flat.
08:06:20 <elliott> Happens to maintain a Nethack fork, UnNethack. If you're curious how a Nethack with some thoughts spent on balance could look like, give it a try: http://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/unnethack/
08:06:20 <elliott> Is on the record as stating that he is not a shark.
08:06:30 <ais523> and possibly the person with the most (although not the largest volume) of AceHack patches but me
08:06:47 <elliott> 10 wins. Add yourself to the list with !nick goodplayers yourname. Don't be a monqy and delete the list.
08:06:47 <elliott> The number of wins required to be a goodplayer increases over time. It is defined to be one more win than monqy currently has, except when it gets fixed at nice numbers like 10 or 27 for a while.
08:06:55 <elliott> monqy needs to extricate himself from this learndb
08:07:23 <elliott> http://twitpic.com/monqy <-- google search result for monqy, COINCIDENC????
08:08:03 <ais523> also, I'd be very surprised if Crawl were more popular than NetHack
08:08:09 <ais523> but Crawl's playerbase, I expect to be easier to count
08:08:12 <elliott> ais523: I wouldn't, at all
08:08:12 <coppro> Sgeo: Now, for the killer question: can you work out whether this applies in the totally general case?
08:08:22 <ais523> NetHack's a part of UNIX culture, Crawl isn't
08:08:29 <elliott> ais523: Nobody on Windows plays NetHack, lots of people on Windows play Crawl (tiles, universally)
08:08:36 <elliott> (Yes I know not "nobody" etc. etc. etc.)
08:08:42 <ais523> elliott: most of the YouTube results for NetHack are played on Windows
08:08:44 <Sgeo> coppro, general as in generalizes to other rules, or to infinite sized universes?
08:08:45 <pikhq_> Also, Fushigi no Dungeon.
08:08:50 <elliott> Also see sheer volume of DCSS on http://www.reddit.com/r/roguelikes, although I realise the sample might be biased
08:08:58 <coppro> Sgeo: To all finite patterns
08:09:10 <pikhq_> (a series of Japanese console rogue-likes)
08:09:11 <elliott> I'd be very surprised if NetHack had more active players than DCSS
08:09:14 <ais523> but it's still relevant, you just have to plug the numbers into Bayes' Theorem
08:09:20 <ais523> pikhq_: you don't have to tell me what the Mystery Dungeon series is
08:09:24 <elliott> I'm too lazy to be a Bayesian
08:09:28 <ais523> some of the games in it are released in the UK too
08:09:34 <elliott> killed good players, is a horrible person"
08:09:34 <pikhq_> ais523: Not everyone would know.
08:09:59 <Sgeo> coppro, good question, I'd like to try, but I have no reason to believe I can. I am currently mentally playing with more GoE stuff though
08:10:21 <ais523> I'm actually quite a fan of Pokémon Mystery Dungeon; its bonus levels (Zero Island) have a balance unlike anything I've seen in any other roguelike, and are sufficiently fun that I'm considering writing my own roguelike based on similar principles
08:10:37 <ais523> it's like what I think Crawl ought to be like, rather than what it actually is like
08:10:39 <coppro> ais523: interesting; your recommendation might make me pick one up
08:11:00 <ais523> coppro: be careful; the first 85% or so of Pokémon Mystery Dungeon is insultingly easy, and you have to play through it before you reach the fun part
08:11:11 <ais523> most people have given up before they reach it
08:11:16 <elliott> squarelos totally looks like spanish ors omething
08:11:35 <elliott> ais523 is going to reply to this with an opinion on squarelos
08:11:48 <ais523> elliott: nah, I'm not good enough at Crawl to have a serious opinion on it
08:11:59 <ais523> but apparently, the developers mostly dislike it, and the top players mostly like it
08:12:15 <ais523> presumably the wider playerbase mostly dislikes it because it looks worse than circlelos, but I'm not sure
08:12:21 <elliott> ais523: monqy seems to be behind it
08:12:45 <elliott> clearly, we need to inundate him with these mixed opinions
08:13:13 <coppro> ais523: I was planning to go for the discount bin anyways
08:15:34 <elliott> ais523: completely unscientific comparison based on seeing a link to an SA forums thread in the crawl learndb: Crawl's thread has amassed 141 pages in three months; I can't even /find/ a thread for NetHack, but Minecraft's has attained 574 in six months
08:15:52 <elliott> I think it's fair to say that Crawl is the most popular roguelike THAT PEOPLE ACTUALLY THINK IS A ROGUELIKE WHEN THEY'RE PLAYING IT OK OK PIKHQ
08:18:05 <ais523> another completely unscientific comparison: NetHack's been slashdotted more often than Crawl
08:19:11 <elliott> that's about seven hundred times more biased than mine
08:19:54 <ais523> also, the SA thread for Crawl was, for ages, the main forum to discuss the game
08:19:59 <ais523> which is why it's mentioned there
08:20:22 <ais523> they moved away to the Tavern because they didn't like a pay site having most of the discussion about the game
08:20:24 <elliott> one of the largest forums on the internet, with some site that nobody reads attached to it
08:20:41 <ais523> is it the largest paid forum, I wonder?
08:20:41 <coppro> elliott: it is indeed something awful
08:20:53 <ais523> things like many of the 4chan boards are presumably larger, but you don't have to pay to post there
08:20:55 <elliott> ais523: according to http://www.big-boards.com/, no; offtopic.com is larger
08:21:09 <elliott> coppro: what an original joke
08:21:09 <ais523> heh, I'm not surprised there are forum rankings
08:21:18 <ais523> but you only mentioned one other forum, so I'm guessing that they're second
08:21:23 <elliott> ais523: unfortunately, that ranking omits the largest forum on the internet because it doesn't have the data they want
08:21:30 <elliott> and no, they're just the only one I remember being pay-for
08:21:34 <elliott> I checked the biggest ones out a while back for some reason
08:21:42 <elliott> (the largest forum on the internet is 2channel, by a large margin)
08:21:50 <elliott> (but they don't have e.g. membership information as they don't have members)
08:22:00 <elliott> oh wait "RegistrationOptional, USD33.00/year"
08:22:21 <itidus20> does a paid forum end up being better?
08:23:05 <ais523> itidus20: depends on what you mean by "better"
08:23:17 <ais523> it's going to discourage a huge number of potential posters, and probably many readers too
08:23:30 <ais523> but that's not necessarily going to be a bad thing
08:23:53 * elliott has ended up coding mcmap in gedit, I wonder why?
08:24:12 <elliott> Well, I know why, it's because vi displays tabs as spaces, so I can't copy and paste properly with my terminal, and because emacs just feels wrong here
08:24:12 <pikhq_> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=2012-12-22 My goodness that is wonderful.
08:24:32 <elliott> ais523: SA seems to do well enough with those:
08:24:33 <elliott> 3,550 registered users logged in.
08:24:41 <elliott> (OK, it's probably one of the only successful for-pay forums.)
08:24:45 <ais523> elliott: if you're a paid forum, being big is definitely to your advantage
08:24:53 <ais523> just like if you're a social network, being big is definitely to your advantage
08:25:04 <coppro> pikhq_: what is so special about that date?
08:25:15 <elliott> coppro: you can figure that one ou
08:25:20 <ais523> pikhq_: haha, that must have been specialcased
08:25:21 <pikhq_> coppro: Day after the Mayan calendar ends.
08:25:29 <elliott> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=2012-12-20 is the same
08:25:40 <elliott> as is http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=2012-11-01
08:25:44 <elliott> you're doing something wrong
08:25:48 <ais523> oh right, those comics haven't been written yet
08:25:49 <elliott> you can't see future comics
08:25:59 <pikhq_> Aaaah, it only peeks into the past.
08:26:14 <coppro> just nothing seemed special about that site at that date
08:26:24 <elliott> coppro: well, that the comic didn't exist
08:26:32 <elliott> on account of the universe not existing, just like mezzacotta extends back to the beginning of time
08:26:41 <elliott> it's only amusing if you know what mezzacotta is
08:27:40 <Sgeo> http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-assemblies-of-god-holy-bible-god/1030075545?ean=2940012671967&itm=2&usri=assembly%2bof%2bgod oh, this pattern of "helpful" votes isn't suspicious
08:28:01 <pikhq_> coppro: It is a webcomic which has an update for every day.
08:28:06 <ais523> it has the largest archives of any webcomic ever
08:28:25 <elliott> ais523: well, MSPA will surpass it in a few years, I'm sure
08:28:35 <ais523> presumably it was going as a newspaper comic before it first came online, and as a pamphlet comic before that, and as a stone carving comic before that
08:28:50 <elliott> and as a plsama painting comic before that
08:28:55 <pikhq_> Specifically, every day on the proleptic Gregorian calendar.
08:29:37 <elliott> I GUESS MY JOKE TRULY WAS THAT BAD
08:29:48 <pikhq_> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=-9999999999999-01-01 Here's the earliest comic.
08:29:49 <ais523> pikhq_: DMM could tell that the Gregorian calendar was going to be introduced millions of years before it was, so he worked on that assumption
08:29:58 <ais523> also, my fingers tried to tab-complete Gregorian, and it half-worked
08:30:10 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
08:30:19 <elliott> hmm, "I think this comic is going downhill." must have been special-cased as the first line
08:30:55 <Sgeo> coppro, you should read all of them.
08:30:57 <ais523> elliott: it could just be chance
08:31:16 <pikhq_> There's a comic worth archive-binging.
08:31:25 <pikhq_> Especially since you'll need to invent immortality to do so.
08:31:35 <elliott> ais523: yeah, but /come on/ :P
08:31:36 <Sgeo> elliott, ais523, or, perhaps the function determining the comic was designed with that result in mind
08:31:37 <pikhq_> Well, not necessarily immortality.
08:31:46 <pikhq_> Just being highly prolonged.
08:32:16 <itidus20> ahh.. is mezzacotta a procedural comic?
08:32:27 <elliott> itidus20: no, it is hand-written by the comic irregulars
08:32:31 <pikhq_> Either that or DMM is amazing.
08:32:39 <elliott> IT IS NOT JUST DMM DO NOT DISCOUNT THE CONTRIBUTIONS OF OTHERS
08:32:55 <elliott> today's mezzacotta is funny
08:33:11 <elliott> although the first and second panels should be swapped
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08:33:57 <itidus20> "The rod of alertness is planted (set) to prevent each instance of a beetle."
08:34:17 * elliott really wants to play frictionless tennis now
08:36:19 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
08:37:14 <ais523> the D&D markov chain person strikes again?
08:37:53 <ais523> elliott: one of the mezzacotta people just does markov chains of the d20 SRD (basically, D&D minus trademarks)
08:38:10 <ais523> and itidus20's quote sounds like it was generated like that
08:38:40 <myndzi> there is a tetris dude
08:38:55 <myndzi> i swear to god every post he makes sounds like a markov chain text generator
08:38:58 <myndzi> but apparently he's a real person
08:39:27 <elliott> rgba = RGBA_OPAQUE(4*v, 4*v, 0);
08:39:27 <elliott> rgba = RGBA_OPAQUE(255, 255-4*(v-64), 0);
08:39:34 <elliott> don't you want to use y, not v?...
08:43:41 <elliott> int lv_block = c->light_blocks[bx*(CHUNK_ZSIZE*CHUNK_YSIZE/2) + bz*(CHUNK_YSIZE/2) + ly/2];
08:43:42 <elliott> int lv_day = c->light_sky[bx*(CHUNK_ZSIZE*CHUNK_YSIZE/2) + bz*(CHUNK_YSIZE/2) + ly/2];
08:43:42 <elliott> lv_block >>= 4, lv_day >>= 4;
08:43:42 <Sgeo_> "Not being one-to-one is not considered sufficient of a function for it to be called one-way (see Theoretical Definition, below)."?
08:43:44 <elliott> lv_block &= 0xf, lv_day &= 0xf;
08:44:04 <ais523> gah, stupid italics indentation
08:44:10 <ais523> (my client interprets tab as "toggle italics")
08:44:23 <oerjan> Sgeo_: yes, those are different concepts.
08:44:50 <oerjan> one-to-one == injective (probably what you want for GOL stuff)
08:45:00 <ais523> I'd say the bitshifts/bitmasks are correct there, as it looks like it's trying to unpack a format that packs multiple 4-bit chunks into an octet
08:45:03 <Sgeo_> oerjan, I'm on this page for different reasons
08:45:04 <oerjan> one-way = cryptographical
08:45:06 <ais523> and the mathematical behaviour is irrelevant
08:45:29 <Sgeo_> oerjan, and I'm kind of just wondering about hashes not necessarily being one-way
08:46:00 <oerjan> Sgeo_: well no one has proved that one-way functions definitely _exist_
08:46:33 <Sgeo_> I should go to sleep now
08:47:20 <ais523> oerjan: does not require P != NP; if checking is O(n^2) and breaking is O(n^999), it's going to be safe for all practical purposes with high enough n
08:47:39 <oerjan> well depends on your precise definition then
08:48:00 <Sgeo_> P != NP iff P != 0 and N != 1
08:48:41 <ais523> also, what if P = +Inf, N = 2?
08:49:07 <ais523> elliott: +Inf * 2 = +Inf
08:49:37 <elliott> ais523: I would just like you to know that I edit mcmap with four-wide tabs
08:49:49 <elliott> <ais523> YOU ARE LIVING A LIE
08:50:14 <Sgeo_> Who doesn't use four-wide tabs for stuff?
08:50:19 <ais523> elliott: why not edit it with half-width spaces too?
08:50:28 <elliott> ais523: SOOO ANGRYYYYYYYYY
08:50:37 <elliott> you're not me, so he'll actually respond
08:50:41 <elliott> and we'll be here for hours
08:51:28 <ais523> I actually posted that Linux coding style guide quote to someone in a different channel earlier
08:51:35 <ais523> when we were about to get into a tabs vs. spaces vs. tabs=8 war
08:51:39 <Sgeo_> I need to go to sleep
08:51:46 <ais523> but it killed the conversation, obviously they were unable to argue with ti
08:51:47 <elliott> <ais523> when we were about to get into a tabs vs. spaces vs. tabs=8 war
08:51:58 <elliott> you implicitly acknowledged that there MAY exist tabs that are not equal to eight psaces there
08:52:19 <ais523> elliott: no, I acknowledge that some people use tabs for purposes that most programs are incapable of reading
08:52:26 <Sgeo_> Erm, I meant "4 spaces for each indent level" when someone said tabs
08:52:40 <ais523> the only programs I can think of where tab width is variable, are some programming editors, and word processors
08:52:43 <ais523> everything else uses tab=8
08:52:50 <ais523> (well, QBasic uses tab=14, but it's insane)
08:52:51 <Sgeo_> I think my Python is showing
08:52:53 <elliott> ais523: hehehehhehehe WOW LOOKS LIKE I'M NOT GETTING INTO THIS AGAIN WITH YOU how strange
08:52:57 <Sgeo_> Wow, that sounsd wrong
08:55:39 <ais523> hey, ahtewa's using ä in Eodermdrome programs
08:55:48 <ais523> although, I suppose I didn't specify the alphabet
08:55:55 <ais523> and it does make it more pronounceable
08:56:56 -!- ais523 has set topic: Tarn was pleased. “The hippos like the sewers!” he said. He took a celebratory swig of Dr. Pepper, and rocked back and forth. | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
08:57:07 <oerjan> clearly we need to get someone vietnamese to write the eodermdrome C interpreter
08:57:15 <ais523> (all I added was a comma; it's correct either way but means something slightly different now)
08:58:46 <elliott> ais523: it looks to mean the exact same thing to me
08:59:01 <elliott> how has the meaning changed?
08:59:14 <ais523> oh, I think with the comma it implies that the swig of Dr. Pepper and the rocking happen one after the other
08:59:19 <ais523> and without, it leaves it ambiguous as to whether they overlap
08:59:33 <ais523> I said "slightly different"
09:00:30 <elliott> ais523: the source of that is an amusing read, by the way
09:00:47 <elliott> ais523: It's an NY Times article that purports to be about Dwarf Fortress, but is mostly a list of all the ways in which the NY Times writer thinks Tarn is weird
09:01:11 <ais523> oh, I, err, looked at that article
09:01:37 <elliott> that paywall is bypassable with a single line of JS, IIRC
09:01:41 <elliott> it's literally just an overlay
09:02:08 <ais523> not in my case, it wouldn't scroll, and I assume the article was longer than a screenful
09:02:16 <ais523> it's possibly because I declined cookies and didn't use JS
09:03:03 <elliott> ais523: umm, you can disable scrolling, I think
09:03:16 <elliott> but you could see the article greyed-out with the one I'm talking about
09:04:32 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
09:04:58 <elliott> ais523: do you know how to check whether the window is focused in SDL?
09:05:05 <elliott> I suppose I have to handle the event...
09:05:15 <ais523> elliott: I don't, I've hardly used SDL
09:05:23 <ais523> I can't even remember if DNA Maze is written in it or not
09:05:34 <ais523> I know I straight-ported it to something, but can't remember if it was SDL, although it seems plausible
09:06:32 <ais523> straight ports generally don't require much thought
09:06:46 <ais523> sufficiently so, that you can forget what libraries you're working with
09:07:16 <elliott> I've learned very little SDL working on mcmap, although I've mostly left the actual map parts alone until now
09:08:33 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
09:19:46 <itidus20> The degree to which a randomly generated world is enjoyable is probably correlated to the amount of cooperative multiplayer conducted within that world
09:20:22 <itidus20> in other words, always looking for a human meaning
09:20:28 <elliott> a great many people enjoy single-player minecraft but don't enjoy it online
09:20:52 <itidus20> but minecraft at least has NPCs I guess thats the diffeernce
09:21:46 <elliott> lots of people play in peaceful, and then there are no NPCs inside any real structure
09:21:54 <elliott> and sheep and pigs are generally more of an ignored annoyance outside
09:22:02 <elliott> chickens are too tiny to notice
09:22:52 <itidus20> ok so.. perhaps it is relative to how busy the persons social life is
09:23:10 <elliott> like, the more social the more enjoyable?
09:23:22 <elliott> If anything it's the opposite, although I doubt even that; plenty of MC players seem to be sociable
09:24:36 <itidus20> i dont have much of a social life .. so gradually I don't enjoy being too alone
09:25:06 <elliott> Well, with the size and speed a lot of builds are constructed, I doubt a lot of the big ones involved too much social interaction during the build period...
09:26:14 <itidus20> I mean.. I'm indoors at home all day every day. At first it seemed like the perfect chance to be alone with computers and books. But gradually I found dependance on chatrooms etc
09:28:34 <oklopol> looking for human meaning? mc's randomly generated worlds are way better than those constructed by hand for more expensive games, exactly because they don't look like they've been drawn by a human
09:29:33 <itidus20> well i was thinking about this while reading mezzacotta
09:29:41 <oklopol> oh well that explains it then
09:30:26 <oklopol> you should not share ideas before they are properly cooked
09:31:04 <elliott> oklopol: so ais should never have talked about feather? :p
09:32:25 <oklopol> "<elliott> Well, with the size and speed a lot of builds are constructed, I doubt a lot of the big ones involved too much social interaction during the build period..." <<< doing stuff together is just a more primitive form of social interaction
09:33:56 <itidus20> years ago playing final fantasy 3/6 on a SNES I started to imagine "This is great. It's a shame the NPC is 'stuck' to a set of scripted events." not in those exact words
09:34:03 <oklopol> i thought you meant they were multiplayer builds but so big and quickly done that the players must've just been building like crazy
09:35:08 <oklopol> ugh, scripted events... is there a worse
09:36:18 <itidus20> But as I get older, I start to realize you can't replace the storyteller with a computer.
09:36:34 <coppro> Sometimes the story is well-written
09:36:58 <oklopol> the point of games is you can be creative
09:37:08 <coppro> and the game does a good job of expanding the story in the game
09:37:49 <coppro> obviously this disagremeent can be settled in only one fashion
09:38:01 <coppro> fight to elliott's death
09:38:22 <itidus20> coppro> I have to disagree (with oklopol) <oklopol> well i have to agree (with oklopol)
09:38:39 <coppro> elliott has the Magic Spirit of Rightness in him
09:38:52 <coppro> the person who kills him and takes the Magic Spirit of Rightness will, thereafter, be right
09:39:28 <elliott> coppro: i say oklopol is right because i like him more
09:39:38 <oklopol> "<coppro> and the game does a good job of expanding the story in the game" <<< afaik, in every game the story can only be expanded locally, or you can explore a few main branches. to me it just feels like they couldn't come up with a long enough story so they added some parts where i have to press x repeatedly.
09:40:23 <oklopol> with slightly (very slightly) varying values of pressing x
09:40:43 <elliott> looks like pixelcomic is over
09:41:10 <elliott> "THE FACT THAT IT IS NAMED HURRICANE PIXEL IS WHAT MAKES IT INTERESTING
09:41:10 <elliott> IMAGINE A WEATHERMAN IN REALITY TALKING ABOUT "HURRICANE HUMAN"
09:41:11 <elliott> TO WARRANT SUCH A NAME THIS HURRICANE WOULD HAVE TO BE CAPABLE OF DESTROYING THE EARTH
09:41:11 <elliott> (WHICH WOULD HAVE A DELICIOUSLY IRONIC VALUE IN NAMING IT "HUMAN" MWAHAHA AHEM)"
09:41:18 <elliott> the annotations of this were ten times better than the comics itself
09:41:31 <oklopol> because that would've been a rather subtle form of mocking
09:41:47 <elliott> http://pixelcomic.net/016.shtml
09:41:50 <elliott> "ARE YOU MOCKING ME OR SOMETHING"
09:42:19 <Sgeo_> PIXELCOMIC UPDaTeD?
09:42:42 <elliott> but its index page is now a list of all strips
09:42:45 <elliott> which implies overness to me
09:44:51 <elliott> I AM NOT ALONE WHEN I SAY THAT
09:44:51 <elliott> I ALWAYS FOUND IT ODD HOW LOIS LANE WAS RENDERED INCAPABLE OF RECOGNIZING SUPERMAN
09:44:51 <elliott> SIMPLY FROM A PAIR OF GLASSES
09:44:51 <elliott> I WONDER IF ANYONE HAS EVER BEEN INSPIRED TO ROB A BANK WEARING GLASSES
09:44:51 <elliott> AND THEN SUCCESSFULLY ESCAPE BY THROWING AWAY THE GLASSES AND WALKING CASUALLY
09:45:11 <oklopol> http://pixelcomic.net/020.shtml
09:46:11 <elliott> oklopol: i love how it'd be a really shitty comic without the annotations making fun of it
09:47:49 <Sgeo_> elliott, btw, MSPA is more stable now
09:47:57 <oklopol> not as good as quimbox but anyway
09:48:04 <elliott> oklopol: less than three hundred comics for yr enjoyment
09:48:27 <elliott> the last strip is pretty much the best
09:48:49 <elliott> http://pixelcomic.net/044.shtml <-- oerjan
09:52:03 <elliott> oklopol: also what's quimbox
09:52:21 <oklopol> well you read the comic right?
09:53:10 <oklopol> because you said it was the worst comic in the world
09:53:49 <oklopol> anyway quim = pussy, assuming you live a few hundred years ago
09:54:25 <coppro> elliott: The Magic Spirit of rightness is not transitive
09:54:33 <oklopol> the punchline is going to be amazing.
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09:55:51 <itidus20> "I LOVE TO IMAGINE THAT WHEN A PIXEL STARTS ROLLING SOME SNOW
09:55:51 <itidus20> IT AUTOMATICALLY REMAINS SQUARE SHAPED"
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09:56:37 <oklopol> elliott: okay pretty quickly the annotations turn out crucial for the jokeness
09:56:50 <coppro> okay so my ridiculous gmail plan might actually work
09:57:09 -!- Somelauw has left.
09:57:16 <elliott> oklopol: he's like "oops this is totally unfunny, let me say funny things as an annotation"
09:57:53 <elliott> i love how even a comic about pixels gets significant art improvement
09:58:30 <oklopol> I GUESS SOME PIXELS BECOME CELEBRITIES FOR BEING IN SO MANY MOVIES
09:59:33 <itidus20> there is some controversy over whether pixels are infact rectangular
10:00:10 <itidus20> but thats to be expected i guess
10:00:44 <elliott> there's that thing about them ... not being
10:01:10 <elliott> HEY IDENTICAL PANELS THAT ARE DIFFERENTIATED SOLELY BY THE DIALOGUE
10:01:10 <elliott> I AM A TRUE COMIC ARTIST NOW
10:01:10 <elliott> contravarsial dinosaur comics dis
10:02:37 <elliott> I ENCOUNTERED THIS FIERCELY ORANGE CREATURE IN MY BACK YARD
10:02:37 <elliott> AND WHEN FETCHING MY DIGITAL CAMERA I OF COURSE FELT THE NEED TO RUN
10:02:38 <elliott> IN FEAR THAT THIS THING WOULD ESCAPE IN 8 WHOLE SECONDS
10:02:54 <Sgeo_> Bloody useless and trivial result: In an m x n section of space, there are no oscillators with period larger than 2^(m*n)
10:04:12 * Sgeo_ is referring to two-state CA with an I-forget-the-name neighborhood
10:05:00 <itidus20> conway's game of life neighborhood?
10:05:22 -!- Taneb has joined.
10:05:35 <Sgeo_> Although the neighborhood is irrelevant, come to think of it. well, hmm. What exotic neighborhood could break it?
10:05:38 <itidus20> have you proved it or merely sampled it?
10:05:38 <elliott> 092 - EXERTION OF POLAR OPPOSITION - 020922
10:05:38 <elliott> I AM ENJOYING THE FACT THAT I AM RAPIDLY BECOMING THE MASTER OF NOT MAKING SENSE
10:05:38 <elliott> IF ANYONE IS INTERESTED IN SUBSCRIBING TO AN APPRENTICESHIP FOR NOT MAKING SENSE
10:05:38 <elliott> PLEASE CONTACT ME VIA EMAIL OR AIM
10:05:42 <oklopol> but yeah if you have a configuration in {0, 1}^{Z^2} that has period vectors (0, m) and (n, 0), then necessarily the orbit of that configuration in your CA is eventually periodic with period less than or equal to 2^{mn}.
10:06:01 <oklopol> trivial to prove but it's actually used all the time
10:06:08 <Sgeo_> itidus20, I'm too lazy to sample
10:06:28 <Taneb> What are we talking about?
10:06:43 <oklopol> "<Sgeo_> Although the neighborhood is irrelevant, come to think of it. well, hmm. What exotic neighborhood could break it?" <<< even if the neighborhood and rule are different at every cell, the result follows, just as trivially
10:07:22 <oklopol> your state set has size 2^{mn} so a deterministic system will be come periodic with period less than or equal to that
10:07:47 <elliott> isn't that just "finite state machines cycle"
10:08:43 <Sgeo_> oklopol, actually, my statement is _slightly_ different from that. I mean a finite sized pattern on an infinite mostly empty grid. Same idea though, but applies only to patterns that don't grow past m*n
10:08:59 <Sgeo_> Um, did I state "doesn't grow past m*n"?
10:09:07 <oklopol> Sgeo_: but wrapping the rule around?
10:10:21 <elliott> THE MORAL OF THIS STORY IS THAT
10:10:21 <elliott> EVOLUTION REQUIRES A GIANT DRIP OF SWEAT
10:10:44 <elliott> GIVE ME ONE GOOD REASON WHY I SHOULD CONTINUE WITH MY LIFE
10:10:44 <elliott> AND BY LIFE I MEAN COMIC STRIP
10:11:09 <oklopol> this comic is way too smart for me
10:11:31 <oklopol> i cannot follow the conversations fast enough for this to even count as a comic
10:12:52 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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10:13:13 <cheater_> elliott, i'll give you no good reasons!
10:13:57 <elliott> THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU GO TO COLLEGE
10:13:57 <elliott> WHAT YOU LEARN IN COLLEGE IS
10:13:58 <elliott> WHAT YOU TRULY VALUE IN LIFE
10:14:06 <elliott> oklopol: it's like poetry for the soul
10:14:32 <Sgeo_> I want to treat areas of the grid as usefully finite for X time but it is probably imposible, at least usefully
10:15:07 <elliott> oklopol: 123 is like oerjan but better
10:15:57 <elliott> "I WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER OFF IF I WAS A HAMSTER RUNNING INSIDE MY HAMSTER WHEEL OF HAMSTER FORTUNE AND HAMSTER VIRTUE"
10:16:39 <Sgeo_> THE TOP OF THE LINE IN FLAT PANEL MONITORS USES PLASMA PIXELS
10:16:51 <Sgeo_> Derp misread that as it's used for the top row
10:17:04 <elliott> CALL NOW AND GET AN ADDITIONAL
10:17:04 <elliott> MINUTE OF YOUR LIFE STOLEN
10:17:25 <elliott> SUPERFLUOUS WEALTH SOMEHOW GIVES ONE
10:17:25 <elliott> THE ABILITY TO GROW AN ERRATIC MOUSTACHE
10:17:35 -!- FireFly has joined.
10:18:38 <Taneb> Get out of here as soon as you can
10:19:59 <FireFly> Why, is it illegal to idle?
10:20:08 <oklopol> "<Sgeo_> I want to treat areas of the grid as usefully finite for X time but it is probably imposible, at least usefully" <<< if this was still about CA, idgi, please explain
10:20:47 <elliott> FireFly: nope, Taneb seemed to think you were new
10:20:56 <itidus20> areas of the grid would seem to mean (m x n section of space)
10:21:09 <Taneb> Nah, I was trying to stop more people be drawn into this single conversation
10:21:15 <Taneb> Rather than the channel as a whole
10:21:43 <itidus20> usefully finite sounds like the pipe dream part
10:22:36 <oklopol> so once again let me mention that injective on finite configurations <==> surjective
10:23:27 <oklopol> valid in any dimension and on many many many other groups
10:26:51 <Sgeo_> I can never remember jectives
10:27:25 <oklopol> surjective = onto, injective = one-to-one; onto = all have preimage, one-to-one = different go to different in the mapping
10:27:57 <oklopol> sur is just french for onto
10:27:59 <Sgeo_> There's another one
10:28:10 <oklopol> well bijective but that's easy to remember
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10:35:45 <oklopol> well yeah but elliott doesn't know that
10:38:08 <oklopol> really you only know what you've been told, or otherwise gathered from your perceptions, and also the stuff you've independently thought up in your head
10:38:40 <oklopol> and perhaps some other stuff that was there in the first place
10:38:57 <oklopol> plus i dunno some bonus maybe
10:45:00 <itidus20> or is that just what they want you to thin
10:53:04 <Sgeo_> I just proved to myself that there are countably infinite finite-sized oscillators, then realized that there are countably infinite finite-sized patterns
10:53:13 <Sgeo_> Ok, I think everyone's sick of my failures
10:56:29 <coppro> they are just unremarkable successes
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10:58:07 <Sgeo_> I assume the actual algorithm for enumerating through all finite-sized oscillators is also unremarkable?
10:58:31 <elliott> As remarkable as the one for bit strings with a condition
11:00:49 <Sgeo_> I _just_ realized how to determine if a finite-sized pattern is a GoE or not... and I was talking about related stuff just hours ago.
11:01:11 <Sgeo_> (And yes, that's what I was looking for for quite a long period of time here)
11:06:42 <coppro> most of math is unremarkable
11:07:24 <coppro> Sgeo_: This sort of stuff is good. Keep at it, and tell me if you can prove or disprove the existence of oscillators with no entry points in finite grids of games of life
11:08:06 <Sgeo_> coppro, are you saying you know the answer?
11:08:48 <Sgeo_> Any such oscillators with no entry points would have to be a certain size, and have no internal gaps of a certain size.
11:09:20 <elliott> <itidus20> all of math is unremarkable
11:09:23 <elliott> so i take it you can't do any math?
11:09:45 <elliott> (joking, but with a point.)
11:10:09 <itidus20> i mean, the answers are only remarkable until some other rule comes along and generalizes them
11:11:53 <Sgeo_> Let's restrict myself to an n*n grid.
11:12:08 <itidus20> however, surely there are reasons for math beyond our understanding
11:12:32 <coppro> the basic foundations of abstract algebra are utterly boring
11:12:38 <coppro> but the wondrous things you can do with it are not
11:13:54 <Sgeo_> n*n grid, (n-5) by (n-5) patterns all have GoEs. But some of those patterns may oscillate into each other, so that there is 1 GoE for each... wait, no!
11:14:48 <Sgeo_> Even in the case of oscillators, there are multiple GoEs for each phrase of the oscillator (as long as each phrase is at the particular size or smaller)
11:14:57 <itidus20> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svXeDHE6tBU
11:15:09 <Sgeo_> Because you could put that spare dot in several locations
11:15:19 <Sgeo_> You can even do it for n by n-5
11:15:55 <oklopol> most of math is unremarked, but quite markable.
11:16:15 <coppro> Here is what I have so far: Any pattern with a 5x5 space admits an eden to its next generation
11:16:18 <Sgeo_> This puts a rather high lower bound on number of GoEs: 2^[n(n-5)]
11:16:50 <coppro> Since you can stick a dot in the center of that space without affecting the result (which is, in CA parlance, to say that they are twins)
11:17:48 <Sgeo_> Well, that greatly increases the lower bound
11:18:19 <Sgeo_> Say that | | are symbols for repeat
11:18:26 <Taneb> I've been holding a sword
11:18:27 <Sgeo_> A would be an entry point
11:18:34 <oklopol> "<coppro> the basic foundations of abstract algebra are utterly boring" <<< no they are not!
11:18:58 <coppro> oklopol: Axioms are boring
11:19:02 <coppro> things that you do with axioms are cool
11:19:17 <oklopol> oh, i thought you meant things like the homomorphism theorem and stuff
11:19:32 <coppro> Sgeo_: Thus to prove the existence of an oscillator with no eden predecessors, you must have an oscillator that never contains a five-by-five hole
11:19:44 <coppro> this is necessary although not sufficient
11:19:49 <itidus20> it's "nothing new under the sun" but with numbers.
11:20:24 <Sgeo_> coppro, ooh, I think, on a torus, "no 5x5 or larger hole" also forces it to be the necessary size
11:20:44 <oklopol> obviously there cannot be an oscillator that's a GoE
11:20:50 <oklopol> or what do you mean by oscillator?
11:21:08 <oklopol> and so i take entry point = preimage
11:21:31 <coppro> oklopol: We're trying to reason about the existence of an oscillator with no eden that will result in the oscillator through repeated evolution
11:21:52 <Sgeo_> On a finite grid such as a torus
11:21:58 <oklopol> well you do know you will never find a GoE for GoL?
11:22:04 <coppro> we're working on toroids right now
11:22:54 <oklopol> well dunno maybe you are really smart or have a smart program or can read wp
11:22:57 <coppro> There's an 11x11 known orphan
11:23:09 <oklopol> right, if you start from that, then you'll find an orphan easily
11:23:24 <oklopol> but you would never find that yourself
11:23:24 <Sgeo_> oklopol, even in infinite grids, they exist. And ais523 and I proved that for any pattern on a finite grid that has a 5x5 or larger hole (coppro, I'm using this formulation now), there's a GoE that results in it
11:23:46 <coppro> oklopol: no, but someone else found it for me
11:24:22 <oklopol> results in it? you mean evolves into it? no that's obviously false
11:25:02 <oklopol> well unless 0 iterations of the rule are allowed as well
11:25:19 <coppro> yeah, this is accepting 0 iterations
11:25:25 <coppro> actually that one holds in any finite space
11:25:51 <coppro> but the one about oscillators might be different between finite limited space, and finite toroidal space
11:26:01 <coppro> CAs exist without edens
11:26:26 <coppro> anyway, back to the subject at hand
11:26:48 <oklopol> "<Sgeo_> oklopol, even in infinite grids, they exist. And ais523 and I proved that for any pattern on a finite grid that has a 5x5 or larger hole (coppro, I'm using this formulation now), there's a GoE that results in it" <<< how did you prove this?
11:27:01 <Sgeo_> oklopol, read logs
11:27:01 <oklopol> and this is for periodic configs, that is, toroidal?
11:27:20 <oklopol> okay i have a counterexample
11:27:22 <Sgeo_> oklopol, yes. Or, might work for other finite as well. Certainly other finite that wraps
11:27:39 <oklopol> no wait, maybe not, hmmhmm
11:27:49 <Sgeo_> Either today or yesterday
11:27:55 <Sgeo_> I was explaining to coppro
11:28:01 <coppro> oklopol: the proof is fairly straightforwad
11:28:04 <Sgeo_> Timezones scare me
11:28:15 <coppro> oklopol: Just add a dot in the 5x5 hole
11:29:26 <Sgeo_> Work backwards. You're not in an oscillator, so all possible patterns going backwards must eventually be a GoE.
11:29:54 <coppro> oklopol: More lucidly this time
11:30:41 <oklopol> and why aren't you in an oscillator?
11:31:06 <coppro> If you aren't, you already must have a finite number of predecessors since there are only finite states to work from and repeated application will never get you back to an earlier one
11:32:05 <oklopol> well obviously, if you restrict to configs with periods m and n; why aren't you in an oscillator?
11:32:39 <coppro> Let me restate the proof better
11:32:51 <Sgeo_> There's a really simple answer for that that is in my head that just won't come out
11:32:54 <oklopol> if you restate the trivial part, i will slap you
11:32:58 <Sgeo_> Unless my thinking is muddled
11:34:36 <Sgeo_> If you keep going backwards, and you're in an oscillator somehow, then you get...now I'm wondering if this proof only works for starting from oscillators... but if it's not an oscillator then it's a preimage to one
11:34:37 <oklopol> really i'd like to hear your definition of hole
11:34:54 <oklopol> like a 5x5 empty space you cannot move out of, using only white cells?
11:35:18 <Sgeo_> 5x5 dead cells surrounded by anything
11:35:28 <oklopol> i mean obviously otherwise you can just take a 5x5 empty space and surround it with small oscillators to find something with infinitely many preimages
11:35:36 <coppro> Given some state, an infinite number of applications must eventually oscillate due to finite state space. If the repeated applications do not arrive at the original, you are not in an oscillator and must have finitely many predecessors. If you are in an oscillator, make a cell live in the center of a 5x5 square of dead cells. This pattern is a twin to yours, so they have the same successor. But the oscillator cannot reach this twin through re
11:35:40 <oklopol> well then it's obviously false
11:36:13 <coppro> since the state wiht the added live cell is a predecessor as its successor is a part of the same oscillator
11:38:13 <oklopol> either the original thing with a 3x3 hole or the one with an added dot must not be an oscillator, since they have the same image, and therefore one of them has an n'th preimage that's a goe
11:38:33 <oklopol> does the size 5x5 give you that in fact it's the original one?
11:38:54 <coppro> 5x5 is required to ensure that the added cell doesn't interact with anything
11:40:07 <coppro> and now I want to tackle the harder problem :D
11:40:39 <Sgeo_> Can we count how many patterns there are with 5x5 or larger holes?
11:40:54 <Sgeo_> Because that's the lower bound on GoEs
11:40:58 <oklopol> anyway it's usually the one with the dot that has a goe nth preimage, since you can, as i said, just have small oscillators and a 5x5 hole in between them
11:42:31 <oklopol> anyway if that 11x11 thingie can be made to collapse into the all-0 configuration, then all finite configs have a goe preimage (although it might not fit in your favorite torus)
11:42:39 <oklopol> coppro: what's the harder problem?
11:43:08 <coppro> oklopol: Do all finite configs have a geo preimage?
11:43:30 <oklopol> a finite goe preimage, on an infinite grid? or torus again
11:43:52 <coppro> If not, which sizes of torii admit states with no goe preimage
11:45:12 <oklopol> goe is too complicated for this to be at all interesting really
11:45:34 <coppro> too complicated to be interesting? what?
11:45:48 <oklopol> well mathematically interesting
11:45:51 <oklopol> i dunno where you get your kicks
11:47:31 <coppro> now I'm pretty sure that anything smaller than 3x3 admits nothing other than the trivial oscillator
11:47:36 <oklopol> "<coppro> oklopol: Do all finite configs have a geo preimage?" <<< well for this particular question, actually the answer is trivially "yes", but questions that actually depend on gol, kind of hard
11:47:59 <oklopol> wait what the fuck am i saying :D
11:48:00 <Sgeo_> oklopol, wait, it is?
11:48:08 <Sgeo_> oklopol, describe please
11:48:23 <oklopol> it's no trivially true for all non-surjectives
11:50:08 <coppro> From experimetnation, it appears that 3x3 admits only period-1 oscillators and patterns that produce the trivial oscillator in one or two generations, and if by two, the intermediate state is always the all-on state
11:50:18 <coppro> not very far, I'm playing around manually
11:50:29 <coppro> I may write a script tomorrow to do serious checking
11:50:59 <Sgeo_> We're actually testing stuff? That's boring :/
11:51:13 <oklopol> well there's no way to do this any other way
11:51:59 <coppro> experiment for the small case
11:52:00 <oklopol> you can probably prove it for all large enough patterns by looking at the images of the goe on the wiki
11:52:03 <Sgeo_> If we can prove that the lower bound on GoEs = the number of patterns without 5x5 holes
11:52:14 <coppro> oklopol: That's hardly sufficient
11:52:29 <Sgeo_> How many patterns are there without 5x5 holes?
11:52:57 <coppro> I suspect that the answer is constant beyond a certain size
11:53:06 <oklopol> coppro: it might be. if it's not, what else can you do really.
11:53:15 <coppro> oklopol: See if there's a pattern
11:53:32 <coppro> what if it's only prime by prime tori?
11:53:36 <Sgeo_> Is there an upper bound on number of GoEs?
11:53:44 <coppro> Sgeo_: yes. The number of states
11:53:58 <oklopol> if you take a random problem, you will find a random answer. it's not the prime by prime tori.
11:54:25 <Sgeo_> Actually, number of patterns without 5x5 holes is the upper bound
11:54:55 <Sgeo_> The question is equivalent to: Is the number of GoEs = to the upper bound? If not, then there's a pattern without a 5x5 hole that is not a GoE
11:55:15 <coppro> Sgeo_: that makes no sense
11:55:36 <coppro> an upper bound is an estimation; you need some criterion for the upper bound
11:55:42 <oklopol> making conjectures is a great way to progress
11:55:52 <oklopol> but that particular one is obviously false
11:55:53 <Sgeo_> Ok, replace "upper bound" with "number of patterns without 5x5 holes"
11:56:05 <coppro> in which case I go with oklopol
11:56:15 <coppro> so fun fact: any 3-cell pattern on a 3x3 torus immediately fills the entire torus and dies
11:56:38 <oklopol> every cell sees every cell so obviously
11:57:06 <oklopol> only depends on the amount of live cells
11:57:17 <Sgeo_> Come on, someone tell me a way to count patterns without 5x5 holes
11:57:21 <oklopol> whether it's instantly everyone alive, or instantly everyone dead
11:57:21 <Sgeo_> There has to be an easy way
11:57:37 <coppro> oklopol: right, thanks for beating sense into me :D
11:58:09 <coppro> Sgeo_: I could do it in a few minutes, but it doesn't seem worth it
11:58:37 <coppro> it's just a counting problem
11:59:10 <Sgeo_> Yes, and if the lower bound on GoEs ever equals it for some sized tori, we'll have some answers
11:59:23 <coppro> that seems quite unlikely
12:00:12 <coppro> once you're above 16x11 then you definitely won't hit that bound
12:00:17 <coppro> since there is a known 11x11 orhpan
12:01:21 <oklopol> also i still don't get how you know 5x5 hole => goe nth preimage, all we've established is either that pattern or the one with a dot in the middle has one, how did you do the final step?
12:01:38 <oklopol> i mean there are patterns with a 5x5 hole that are in an oscillator
12:02:16 <itidus20> coppro: will every 3x3 torus eventually die?
12:02:25 <oklopol> itidus20: in at most 2 steps
12:02:27 <coppro> itidus20: or be stable
12:02:44 <Sgeo_> oklopol, if it's in an oscillator, then that cell will die, and the oscillator will eventually reach the same position except without the dot
12:02:52 <Sgeo_> Or am I misunderstanding your question?
12:02:58 * oklopol tries to remember the rule
12:03:24 <coppro> oklopol: Suppose that one of the two has no goe nth premiage. Then it must be in an oscillator as the state space is finite. But that means its successor is a predecessor, and its successor has the other twin as an nth preimage and hence has a geo nth preimage; contradiction
12:03:26 <oklopol> right the rule is not symmetric w.r.t. live and dead cells, in that case 3x3 is not quite as trivial as i said
12:03:38 <coppro> still pretty trivial though
12:03:47 <coppro> rule is 2 or 3 to stay alive, 3 to birth
12:04:22 <oklopol> it's not a contradiction that the config with a 5x5 hole is in an oscillator
12:04:47 <Sgeo_> oklopol, did I misunderstand your question?
12:04:56 <Sgeo_> Suppose it's a p2 oscillator
12:05:01 <coppro> But it has to have a goe nth preimage because its successor does, and its successor is itself an nth preimage
12:05:06 <coppro> since it's in n oscillator
12:05:09 <Sgeo_> Pattern in phase 1 + dot has goe primage.
12:05:23 <Sgeo_> Then, phase 2 + no dot has goe preimage
12:05:31 <Sgeo_> Then phase 1 + no dot has goe preimage
12:07:09 <oklopol> "<coppro> But it has to have a goe nth preimage because its successor does" <<< are you claiming this is a general truth for CA?
12:07:53 <Sgeo_> oklopol, what CA is it not true for? Nondeterministic?
12:08:03 <Sgeo_> Are there nondeterministic CAs?
12:08:30 <oklopol> well i don't see why that's true
12:09:04 <Sgeo_> Oh wait, I misread the quote as "predecessor"
12:09:09 <coppro> oklopol: Okay, let me try this again from the top. Given a state S with a 5x5 hole, put a dot in that hole and call it H.
12:09:19 <oklopol> why don't you just explain the part i don't get
12:09:25 <Sgeo_> oklopol, I'm trying to
12:09:31 <Sgeo_> Sgeo_> Pattern in phase 1 + dot has goe primage.
12:09:31 <Sgeo_> <Sgeo_> Then, phase 2 + no dot has goe preimage
12:09:31 <Sgeo_> <Sgeo_> Then phase 1 + no dot has goe preimage
12:09:32 <coppro> because I'm not quite sure what part that is
12:09:45 <Sgeo_> Maybe I'm not getting what part you're not getting?
12:09:48 <coppro> Both S and H cannot be in the same oscillator as the generation function is bijective within an oscillator and G(S) = G(H)
12:10:06 <coppro> and they cannot be in different oscillators for the same reason
12:10:13 <coppro> So one is not in an oscillator
12:12:14 <Sgeo_> elliott, do Game of Life stuff with us
12:12:14 <coppro> Now I want to write a script which will enumerate every state of a finite torus GoL modulo symmetry and create a graph of the results
12:12:23 <coppro> but I think sleep must come first
12:13:34 <oklopol> if you have two preimages, then you have a goe nth preimage
12:13:53 <coppro> in finite state space, anyway
12:14:28 <coppro> why do I suddenly feel like this is going to become category theory
12:16:05 <itidus20> a good analogy can apply to anything
12:16:40 <oklopol> also if one of your images has a goe nth preimage, then you have one as well
12:17:29 <Sgeo_> I'm going to need to go out soon
12:17:40 <Sgeo_> Chicken sandwich for breakfast :D
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12:18:20 <elliott> Sgeo_: omg how amazing D::DDDD
12:18:32 <oklopol> that's an interesting lemma for functions acting on a finite space, certainly, nothing to do with ca tho
12:18:52 <coppro> 3x3 admits oscillators with no goe nth preimage, as does 1xn with n>=3
12:19:39 <Sgeo_> With no goe nth preimage, or no goe nth preimage provable with a 5x5 hole?
12:20:06 <Sgeo_> Or, if you can prove there's only one preimage, that would do it
12:20:18 <oklopol> sheesh, stop obsessing about 5x5 holes pervert
12:20:39 <coppro> hmm... actually, odd may admit a seriously wacky oscillator
12:21:11 <coppro> so I am looking at a video with the heading "morphism category theory" and I'm getting basic knot theory explained
12:21:53 <coppro> ok so 1xn with odd n admits oscillators
12:22:12 <coppro> would be good for the patterns of random lights that repeat in weird cycles in scifi schows
12:22:42 <coppro> they each represent a symmetric 2-morphism
12:22:58 <oklopol> well the only way not to admit an oscillator is to have everything go to zero
12:23:23 <coppro> non-goe predecessor oscillator
12:23:52 <oklopol> i don't think we have a name for this concept in math
12:24:07 <coppro> k I'm calling them stranded oscillators
12:24:12 <Sgeo_> oklopol, I consider everything at 0 to be a period 1 oscillator
12:24:33 <oklopol> there's a name for ones which have arbitrarily long preimage chains, such points are said to belong to the limit set of the CA
12:24:33 <coppro> also the 1x11 torus is weird
12:24:33 <Sgeo_> Is that an abuse of terminology?
12:25:01 <coppro> oklopol: ah ok, that works then
12:25:12 <oklopol> Sgeo_: that's the terminology i'd use, i just assumed coppro meant there has to be a 1 since he said it admits one
12:25:14 <coppro> actually wait, no it doesn't
12:25:31 <coppro> I agree with that terminology
12:25:40 <oklopol> if every point goes to the all-0 config for some state 0, the CA is said to be nilpotent
12:25:49 <oklopol> (then there exists a k such that all points to go all-0 in k steps)
12:25:49 <Sgeo_> symmetric 2-morphism?
12:26:55 <coppro> Sgeo_: talking about the video
12:27:39 <coppro> 1x7 has a weird spaceship oscillator
12:28:30 <coppro> actually, how about a xenophobic oscillator
12:28:51 <oklopol> does it not like other kinds of oscillators
12:29:04 <coppro> it doesn't like any state except its own members
12:29:10 <coppro> exclusive might work too
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12:29:29 <Sgeo_> What do you mean by that?
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12:30:15 <coppro> Sgeo_: Just trying to name these oscillators with no predecessors
12:30:45 <coppro> I suppose a closed oscillator would probably be best
12:31:08 <oklopol> well you have a set that cannot be entered, kind of like a fortress. so call each config in there a *drumroll* brick
12:31:20 <Sgeo_> How did you prove they exist for the 1xn and ... the other thing you proved?
12:31:59 <Sgeo_> I mean, experimentally, but how do you demonstrate they have no other preimages?
12:32:10 <oklopol> closed is good, in fact it's a closed set in the topology given by one-way orbits
12:32:39 <coppro> 1xn for even n I'm not 100% sure about but could probably sketch up a proof
12:32:55 <oklopol> topology given by one-way orbits being that a set is open if it's closed under the map
12:33:02 <coppro> any zebra stripe pattern is stable and I'm pretty sure also has no other predecessors
12:33:32 <oklopol> if you can go through all the configs, it's easy enough to enumerate stranded ones
12:33:48 <coppro> not sure if I prefer stranded or closed
12:34:07 <coppro> closed is more conventional but stranded sounds more like the concept
12:34:15 <coppro> Sgeo_: 3x3 is straightforward
12:34:47 <coppro> Sgeo_: in 3x3 all configurations with exactly 3 cells alive are stable and all others die out in at most 2 generations
12:35:28 <coppro> oklopol: yeah, at some point I will write a script to enumerate these
12:35:59 <oklopol> enumerate ones that belong to a closed oscillator?
12:36:49 <coppro> yeah, at least for small tori
12:37:15 <oklopol> remember to use the fact you only need to look at the first preimages, and then enumerate the whole orbit if you have multiple
12:37:22 <oklopol> otherwise that's gonna take some time
12:37:52 <Sgeo_> If you have multiple preimages for a state, then it's not a closed/stranded oscillator
12:38:30 <oklopol> no it's not, point is you never need to look further than that because a point is in a closed oscillator iff it has a preimage not in a closed oscillator
12:38:48 <coppro> Sgeo_: sketch of prrof for 1xn in my head
12:40:18 <coppro> 1x9 appears to really really like a single oscillator
12:40:39 <coppro> have yet to find a pattern other than all-off and all-on that doesn't result in i
12:41:22 <coppro> (another problem: Is there a general solution to the number of distinct oscillators on an mxn torus?
12:42:20 <coppro> oklopol: nope there isn't one or nope there can't be one?
12:42:37 <oklopol> nope there can't be one, assuming the way you can implement a tm in gol is in any way sensible
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12:43:21 <Sgeo_> First: You can't impement a TM on a torus
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12:43:44 <oklopol> it grows forever even if its tape doesn't?
12:43:49 <Sgeo_> oklopol, TM implies infinite storage
12:43:54 <Sgeo_> A torus is not infinite
12:44:19 <oklopol> but does the gol implementation need expanding space for constant storage
12:44:21 <Sgeo_> Erm, that's what I usually mean when I say torus, anyway
12:45:00 <oklopol> if it doesn't, there can't be a general solution to the number of distinct oscillators
12:45:04 <oklopol> at least not in the form of a tm
12:45:25 <Sgeo_> You need expanding space for expanding storage, I'd assume
12:45:37 <oklopol> obviously, that's not what i asked
12:45:41 <Sgeo_> And you can't forbid expanding storage without forbidding TM
12:46:16 <Sgeo_> Surely, a counterexample, then: Why can't you simply enumerate every mxn pattern, and count the oscillators?
12:46:42 <oklopol> err sure you can do that :D
12:46:57 <oklopol> was that the fact you can implement a tm
12:47:04 <oklopol> means there can't be any sort of nice formula
12:47:11 <oklopol> but not in any rigorous sense
12:47:16 <Sgeo_> What is a "nice formula"?
12:47:21 <Sgeo_> "Nice formula" has no meaning
12:47:31 <oklopol> that's why i said "not in any rigorous sense"
12:47:42 <oklopol> i then forgot that this was all i meant and claimed you can't even calculate them
12:48:18 <oklopol> which is not true since given m and n, you can certainly just count the oscillators
12:48:48 <oklopol> but for instance this is certainly p-complete
12:48:54 <oklopol> because you can implement tm's
12:48:58 <Sgeo_> So, hm. I'm still not quite sure I get what finite state automa have to do with this
12:49:03 <Sgeo_> And I'm refusing to call it TM
12:51:52 <oklopol> well the point is you can draw an initial part of the infinite tape with a tm using logspace, this is all you usually need for p-hardness results
12:54:48 <oklopol> and what i mean is that whether a single config is in an oscillator should be p-hard, since you can reverse your computation and start over with yes-instances, and go to all-0 or something for no-instances
12:55:34 <Sgeo_> Sorry, I'm a bit confused
12:56:06 <oklopol> well to, hopefully, unconfuse you, you are certainly right in that you can just count oscillators
12:56:07 <Sgeo_> Um, is doing several GoL generations and comparing generally considered p-hard? I'm a bit lost with complexity classes.
12:56:49 <oklopol> what i'm saying is there can't, intuitively, be a nice formula for this, because there never is for this kind of things.
12:58:06 <oklopol> basically just means you can draw a finite part of a turing machine config in the state
12:58:14 <Sgeo_> Is running GoL for 2^mn generations not intuitively a nice formula?
12:58:33 <oklopol> it's a nice algo, i wouldn't call it a formula
12:59:21 <elliott> oklopol: is the algo "for i in ... setp gol"
12:59:44 <oklopol> i wouldn't call it a formula
12:59:53 <oklopol> i would call m^n + n^m a formula
13:00:28 <oklopol> something that's actually some kind of solution to the problem
13:00:42 <oklopol> that you surely cannot have, because you can implement a tm.
13:00:51 <Sgeo_> I guess I know what nice means, kind of. We would like a nice means of determining the existence of stranded oscillators, without brute-forcing
13:01:20 <Sgeo_> oklopol, but there must be a formal definition of what it is that you cannot have?
13:01:38 <itidus20> i just studied the 2x2 toroidal by hand.. because formulas for these things are simply over my head.
13:01:39 <oklopol> Sgeo_: i'm not aware of one, i suppose that would be complexity classes
13:01:50 <Sgeo_> itidus20, get Golly
13:01:59 <oklopol> but all i'm saying is tm ==> all hope is gone, mathematically
13:02:05 <Sgeo_> Although I don't even have Golly open right now
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13:02:32 <Sgeo_> oklopol, tbh, that sounds more like a rule of thumb. And again, you can't have TM on a finite torus
13:02:50 <oklopol> yes, a rule of thumb that's always true
13:02:57 <oklopol> kind of like the church-turing thesis
13:03:04 <itidus20> 12 out of 16 died... and the other 4 turned into fascinating "up" "down" "left" "right" shapes
13:03:23 <oklopol> you can have a tm on a finite torus, it will just explode if it tries to use too much space
13:03:52 <itidus20> by turned into i should say "remained as"
13:06:03 <Sgeo_> Hmm, there's no "nice" way to see the result of a TM without running it... but all that really equates into is there's no way to see the result of a TM without the thing computing the result, whether by simulating the TM or not, definitely not halting
13:06:34 <Sgeo_> Not really sure how to apply that here.
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13:07:46 <oklopol> you apply it by noting you cannot know whether a tm drawn on a config is in an oscillator without running it, which means the only possible formula is brute-force.
13:08:11 <oklopol> this is not a formal proof, but only an ass would not accept it
13:09:16 <Sgeo_> I'm just going to mentally s/tm/fsm/ what you said and say ok
13:09:20 <oklopol> point is, you cannot take a random problem and expect it to be mathematically interesting, the solution will be just as random
13:09:54 <oklopol> well if you want to be a fucking outstanding retard, go ahead
13:11:00 <oklopol> anyway if you substitute fsm where i say tm, that really means nothing
13:11:10 <Sgeo_> I can solve the halting problem for your "TM" on the torus
13:11:13 <oklopol> the point is it's a certain kind of fsm, one that has a tape.
13:11:21 <itidus20> I always try to direct everything i think about onto gaming. I figure that to give a game depth at its core then some mathematics is required.
13:11:50 <itidus20> Then the trick becomes how to turn a mathematical problem into a fun game.
13:12:13 <oklopol> surprise us all and be the first
13:12:28 <Sgeo_> oklopol, hmm? Are you talking to me or itidus20?
13:13:01 <elliott> <Sgeo_> I can solve the halting problem for your "TM" on the torus
13:13:30 <oklopol> elliott: is the joke that you're missing the point as badly as Sgeo_?
13:13:56 <elliott> oklopol: the joke is all the words
13:14:03 <elliott> i only read that line anyway
13:14:10 <elliott> i just kind of assumed anything Sgeo_ said would be something like that
13:14:15 <Sgeo_> oklopol, here's the solution to the halting problem: Run it. If it crashes, or otherwise doesn't return to the initial state after 2^mn, it halts, otherwise, it doesn't.
13:14:34 <oklopol> well he was mostly missing the point and expressing it in random ways
13:16:30 <oklopol> since last night i realized all lattices with continuous shift-commuting operations over S^Z can be recoded into pointwise lattices
13:17:12 <oklopol> that is, you have a conjugate subshift and the lattice operations only look at the ith symbols of their arguments to determine the ith symbol of the image
13:18:05 <Sgeo_> elliott, oklopol seems to think that turing-machines can exist in finite space. And just to be clear on the idea of finite tape possibly being TM vs UTM, he mindboggled when I said that I could solve the halting problem for his TM (although maybe he thought I meant with stuff _on_ the machine, which is impossible)
13:18:47 <elliott> that wacky oklopol with his strange uncommon mathematical beliefs
13:19:14 <Sgeo_> elliott, if I'm missing something, please tell me
13:19:27 <oklopol> mathematics is my religion
13:19:42 <oklopol> i don't think i ever actually proved anything
13:20:00 <itidus20> for actual games one thing that tends to be necessary is interfacing the math models with non-math things.
13:20:56 <itidus20> whether the interfaced things is actually non mathematic is questionable though
13:21:21 <oklopol> Sgeo_: sorry i was talking to itidus20, i have you on ignore
13:21:31 <oklopol> i did not mindboggle at you claiming that trivial thing
13:21:58 <itidus20> sorry to everyone that i am always offtopic
13:22:55 <itidus20> well so, its a bit like what the chinese did with yin and yang, and trigrams. applying meanings.
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13:23:59 <itidus20> and so 00=north, 01=east, 10 = west, 11=south
13:24:24 <elliott> congratulations, you discovered binary
13:25:03 <itidus20> but the pure mathematicians never actually apply it to anything.. the "interfacing"
13:25:10 <itidus20> i guess its horses for courses
13:26:09 <Sgeo_> oklopol, is our disagreement here just a matter of terminology?
13:26:17 <itidus20> i am sure that if i did that better i could say north + east = northeast
13:28:00 <Sgeo_> itidus20, easy way for the future is to assign 1 bit to 1 ... bit
13:28:14 <Sgeo_> So north/south gets 1s place, east/west gets 2s place, or something like that
13:28:26 <Sgeo_> Although that doesn't... quite... hm
13:28:33 <Sgeo_> Kind of assumes defaults
13:29:42 <itidus20> ah.. it was right how i had it.. no doubt
13:30:40 <itidus20> ahh fuck it. time for me to take a break.
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13:30:44 <Sgeo_> Oh, it trivially doesn't work
13:31:13 <Sgeo_> 8 possible states, so you need 3 bits
13:31:28 <itidus20> 00 + 01 = 01 .. that creates a problem
13:32:53 <fizzie> <elliott> ais523: yes, fizzie thinks this is the nineties, and does things like use bitshifts instead of division <-- I think the most bitshifts are where there are negative numbers, where bitshift != round-towards-zero division. (Though it admittely uglily assumes sign-extending arithmetic shift for signed quantities.)
13:32:54 <Sgeo_> I'm trying to think of a non-ugly way to do it in 3 bits now.
13:33:49 <Sgeo_> A NORTH flag, a WEST flag, and one more flag
13:33:52 <itidus20> applying meanings to numbers is approximately as fun as processing the numbers
13:34:39 <Sgeo_> Oh, duh. If I only had two flags, so NORTH or not NORTH (south), and WEST or not WEST (east), then you only get diagonal directions
13:35:41 <itidus20> perhaps it doesn't work out neatly if using addition
13:36:24 <Sgeo_> Trivial ordering, probably ugly though, let's see what happens: 000 = N, 001 = NE, 010 = E, 011 = SE, 100 = S, 101 = SW, 110 = W, 111 = NW
13:36:38 <Sgeo_> I'm honestly thinking ternary at this point
13:36:57 <Sgeo_> You can trivially do it in two trits
13:37:30 <Sgeo_> Um, with space left over. Oh, for neutral
13:37:45 <elliott> <elliott> just do a bitmask duh
13:38:11 <itidus20> seems space left over is the price for being able to add them
13:38:16 <Sgeo_> elliott, you'd need NORTH, NOT NORTH, and SOUTH
13:38:35 <Sgeo_> 0+ is North, 0- is South
13:38:47 <itidus20> ah.. so its a 2s compliment thing?
13:39:01 <Sgeo_> +0 is West, -0 is East
13:39:16 <Sgeo_> itidus20, no, it's base 3 instead of base 2, but instead of 0, 1, and 2, we go -1, 0, and 1
13:39:41 <Sgeo_> So, +0 + 0+ is North + West = NorthWest
13:39:53 <itidus20> probably the netral is a necessary placeholder for the addition
13:40:20 <Sgeo_> itidus20, it's because naturally there isn't on or off, there's forward, backwards, and neither
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13:40:55 <Sgeo_> If you're going north, than what would east/west be? Neither.
13:41:06 <Sgeo_> If you're going west, north/south must be Neither
13:41:15 <itidus20> so it's to account for the uh.. center point
13:42:44 <Sgeo_> And these balanced ternary are just numbers
13:43:18 <Sgeo_> -- = -1*3^1 + -1*3^0 = -3 + -1 = -4
13:43:56 <Sgeo_> -0 = -3, -+ = -2, 0- = -1, 00 = 0, 0+ = 1, +- = 2, +0 = 3, ++ = 4
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13:45:15 <Sgeo_> And with bitmasks, usually you use bitwise or instead of addition, although addition works as long as you're careful that + and - only combine with 0s. Not sure what you use with trits
13:45:39 <Sgeo_> Erm, sorry, that "as long as" is for trits, not bits
13:46:05 <oklopollen> Sgeo_: to your last question: probably.
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13:46:53 <Sgeo_> Ok, so no more arguments about terminology?
13:47:36 <oklopollen> but no makeup sex since i have to work
13:48:28 <oklopollen> actually i just have to copypaste some stuff and generalize it :-DSASD
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14:48:22 <Sgeo_> Believe it or not, etc. etc. etc.
15:02:28 <CakeProphet> I'd rather not think about the details so, etc, etc.
15:07:41 <CakeProphet> I don't know if you knew this or not, but shit gets pretty tired.
15:07:46 <CakeProphet> not a lot of energy in those motherfuckers.
15:24:36 <oklopol> i'm also pretty tired, worked for almost an hour
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16:09:57 <Elizacat> fizzie, I'm Elizacat, and I've taken interest in mcmap :3
16:10:12 <Elizacat> fizzie, I've never gotten around to poking you because I'm shy as hell. But hello!
16:11:06 <fizzie> Well, um, hello, I guess. (I never really know the correct responses.)
16:11:06 <Elizacat> fizzie, I'm interested in helping! I'm told you guys have a private channel for this, if you want to give me an inv I'd be much obliged, but you don't have to if you don't want
16:11:22 <Elizacat> I'm not an extrovert even online, but one of us had to initiate it
16:11:30 <Elizacat> and well, you don't know who I am
16:11:44 <Elizacat> the onus would be on me for that wouldn't it
16:12:18 <Elizacat> fizzie, I'm normally pretty nice if not rather unserious :p
16:12:44 <Elizacat> internet is serious business CakeProphet
16:13:01 <CakeProphet> dude I'm so good I don't even have to I've already won.
16:13:07 <fizzie> Well, there's a "private" channel for Minecraft-related stuff so that it doesn't clobber things here, but I don't think it's really all that private, it's just a "-minecraft" suffix and I'd be surprised if it hasn't been mentioned publicly here.
16:13:40 <CakeProphet> yeah I've known of it, but I don't like minecraft.
16:13:58 * Elizacat encases CakeProphet in a bedrock house and pours lava
16:14:09 <Elizacat> "this is why Id on't like it..."
16:14:15 <CakeProphet> my RL friend made a castle that rebuilds itself.
16:14:30 <Elizacat> Vorpal and I built a self-regenerating house <3
16:15:19 <oklopol> please tell me Vorpal isn't your boyfriend
16:15:27 <oklopol> i might have to kill myself
16:15:41 <CakeProphet> but they build self-regenerating houses in minecraft together it would be so adorable
16:16:33 <oklopol> i once asked a girl to build stuff with me in mc but she said we were moving too fast
16:18:17 <CakeProphet> I think there is probably a reason she is my ex.
16:18:54 <elliott> Because she has taste in languages?
16:19:09 <oklopol> i tried to teach my ex to program a few times but she just got really mad because she didn't get it
16:19:19 <oklopol> or didn't get it quickly enough
16:19:45 <oklopol> Elizacat: could you please tell me that
16:19:53 <oklopol> i'm scared by your silence
16:20:12 <Vorpal> <oklopol> please tell me Vorpal isn't your boyfriend <-- lol, no I'm not.
16:20:33 <Vorpal> oklopol, just happen to play on the same minecraft server.
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17:10:27 <Gregor> Blood is thicker than water, but corn syrup is thicker than blood. (An American national pride slogan by me :P )
17:11:25 <Taneb> Lava is thicker than corn syrup
17:11:57 <Gregor> I don't think that lava is anyone's (de facto) national beverage. But blood probably is?
17:13:00 <Taneb> Might be Icelands?
17:13:39 <Taneb> But I was talking about threats of violence
17:15:50 <Gregor> You're ruining my slogan buzz :P
17:33:12 <Taneb> Right. Lasagne went in at 6:32
17:33:45 <Gregor> Uh ohhhhhhhhh, sgettio
17:34:07 <Gregor> Y'know where I'm off to? Lancaster!
17:34:25 <Taneb> But that's in Lancashire!
17:34:38 <Taneb> I'm going to Durham tomorrow
17:34:55 <Taneb> And, after tomorrow morning, I won't be online 'till Tuesday
17:40:11 <Vorpal> that was crazy... X broke... By refusing the believe in the mouse cursor. For example, xkill said it couldn't grab mouse. And mouse did nothing...
17:40:21 <Vorpal> well it moved around just fine
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18:07:05 <quintopia> iceland;s national beverage is alcoholic pine tree
18:21:33 <Taneb> I wonder if you can ferment or distill or whatever coffee beans
18:22:38 <pikhq> t kill yeast, you can ferment it.
18:22:46 <pikhq> And if it's liquid, you can distill it.
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18:34:06 <Gregor> I'll bet mercury would kill yeast ...
18:38:42 <zzo38> Do you know what the test service numbers are for my telephone service? Including, telling you your own telephone number, disconnecting your line for a few minutes, etc
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18:51:07 <Lymee> http://therighttool.hammerprinciple.com/statements/i-often-get-angry-when-writing-code-in-this-langua
18:53:59 <elliott_> everyone likes haskell on this site
18:58:42 <Gregor> In spite of the wording, that's clearly a popularity contest.
18:58:56 <Gregor> Few people get angry while programming in Haskell because few people program in Haskell.
18:59:25 <zzo38> O, yes, probably that would be why.
19:02:41 <Lymee> Strange that that site doesn't let you rank things equal.
19:07:55 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:10:35 <ais523> hmm, weird observation: within the first 3 or 4 minutes of my computer loading, the touchpad won't move the mouse cursor above the bottom half of the screen, it keeps bouncing down
19:10:39 <ais523> after a while, it works fine
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19:32:44 <zzo38> I have now regopherized the Space Weather Prediction Center.
19:33:37 <zzo38> (Some of the files don't work but that is not my fault.)
19:41:27 <zzo38> Did you know that? I don't know why some files don't work, but the problem is on their end, not on my end.
19:42:12 -!- Taneb has joined.
19:42:19 <zzo38> (The same files fail to work when using other protocols too, including HTTP and FTP.)
19:45:47 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:55:37 <oerjan> <elliott> oklopol: 123 is like oerjan but better
19:58:02 <oerjan> is this still referring to that pixelcomic
20:01:37 <oerjan> those kind of puns are too square for me
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20:25:53 -!- Taneb_ has changed nick to Taneb.
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20:42:41 <zzo38> In the D&D game my character current has two items: a 25-foot rope and a navy guest uniform.
20:42:58 <zzo38> Now make up a computer game text adventure game
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20:52:30 <Lymee> I didn't end up posting my password in here, did I? The graphics driver died, and I flailed around blindly trying to "sudo /etc/init.d/gdm restart"
20:53:33 <zzo38> You sent nothing in the past few minutes look in the log files to make sure
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21:01:53 <zzo38> Do you know anything else about my optimization problem now?
21:13:14 -!- TeruFSX has joined.
21:16:01 <zzo38> quintopia: Start searching the recent IRC log for "Say that there is a command - which does the next letter"
21:16:47 <zzo38> (The starting timestamp is 1311396023 although there are at least three different formats and from different computers, so just search the text instead)
21:20:22 <oerjan> tunes' time zone is so broken you cannot even search on the minutes.
22:12:54 <oerjan> elliott_: there's a thread on haskell-cafe about that reallyUnsafePointerEq# you used http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2011-July/094103.html
22:18:43 <elliott_> seems my use was safe with forseeable ghc
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22:22:43 <SgeoN1> I am alarmed by the fact that I now feel the need to run memtest
22:33:30 <zzo38> quintopia: What stuff doesn't quite make sense?
22:42:44 <zzo38> Try eat your chopsticks right now!
23:03:45 -!- itidus21 has changed nick to itidus20.
23:04:54 <oerjan> but i have no chopsticks!
23:08:50 <zzo38> Look in your cupboard or drawer or closet or cabinet or wherever you keep it.
23:10:09 <oerjan> wouldn't you know, i do have a couple!
23:10:22 <oerjan> sadly, they're a bit too nicely decorated to eat.
23:11:00 <oerjan> nah i don't want to be chasing the clock
23:11:04 <itidus20> O_O FFFFFUUUUUUUUUUU it's a marsh hare! a marsh hare!
23:11:47 <itidus20> we planted the chopsticks for you to eat
23:12:04 <oerjan> ...i don't believe you.
23:12:25 -!- elliott_ has quit (Quit: disconnection error).
23:12:51 <oerjan> elliott_: no you are not.
23:13:07 -!- elliott_ has joined.
23:13:24 <elliott_> now oerjan will not BELIEVE THAT THING that WAS DEFINITELY not TRUE at all.
23:13:46 <elliott_> oerjan: LETJOISE HAVE A PERARTY
23:15:23 <elliott_> what if oerjan was that guy in norway who did that bad stuff, would we even know. :/
23:15:31 <elliott_> i am just saying that there are a lot of people in norway
23:15:44 <oerjan> yes. i doubt they would let him chat from prison.
23:16:26 <elliott_> oh this is probably in bad taste :DDDDD
23:16:30 <elliott_> oerjan: im sorry ive deeply offended u
23:16:39 <oerjan> i have not escaped. but not from the same place, either.
23:17:35 <oerjan> of course there are similarities. i am blond, somewhat tall, and not a muslim.
23:18:36 <oerjan> i'll ignore that question.
23:18:42 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:20:09 <elliott_> and thatw as when oerjan turned into a cat
23:21:55 <Sgeo> My memory passed
23:22:05 <monqy> rest in peace sgeos memory
23:23:34 <elliott_> `addquote <Sgeo> My memory passed <monqy> rest in peace sgeos memory
23:23:35 <HackEgo> 542) <Sgeo> My memory passed <monqy> rest in peace sgeos memory
23:23:43 <elliott_> did you ever finish writing at.html
23:23:51 <Sgeo> elliott_, /me wants to read it
23:24:01 <monqy> elliott_: me yes i did
23:24:03 <elliott_> Sgeo: iduno if anyone else can stan,d,,,,,the @,,
23:24:16 <Sgeo> elliott_, you're acting drunk
23:24:19 <elliott_> it has, maximal @ level contents.
23:24:20 <Sgeo> I doubt you're drunk, but
23:24:34 <elliott_> Sgeo: so's your face OHOHHHHHHHHHHH BURNSJAP
23:24:47 <elliott_> no if i was intoxicated i would be sure to be much, much more amusing than this
23:24:56 <elliott_> so basically if i'm ever really funny...........
23:25:42 <elliott_> anyway drunk people don't act like anything, they just act like irritable, annoying, stupid versions of themselves
23:25:49 <elliott_> which is a shame since it's rly boring
23:25:55 <olsner> elliott_: so are you old enough to drink yet?
23:26:23 <elliott_> i think you can drink indoors from like six years old here???????
23:26:41 <elliott_> three and a bit months before that, but it seems pretty boring so i probably won't bother
23:28:14 <monqy> alcohol education taught me never to drink to get drunk
23:28:23 <monqy> an important life lesson
23:28:58 <monqy> im not of legal drinking age.........
23:29:26 <elliott_> i'm not actually sure at all why people would get drunk alcohol honestly just seems like the most boring drug, i'm utterly sincere
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23:30:19 <monqy> cigaretes and drunking "lame highs for lame people"
23:30:39 <oerjan> yeah if it doesn't make you go crazy and shoot at people, it's not worth it. take it from a norwegian.
23:30:55 <elliott_> monqy: so is squarelos the best,,, it is a long story involving me reading the crawl learndb and talking to ais
23:31:04 <elliott_> `addquote <monqy> cigaretes and drunking "lame highs for lame people" <oerjan> yeah if it doesn't make you go crazy and shoot at people, it's not worth it. take it from a norwegian.
23:31:05 <oerjan> well stab people, in the case of weapon-deprived british
23:31:06 <HackEgo> 543) <monqy> cigaretes and drunking "lame highs for lame people" <oerjan> yeah if it doesn't make you go crazy and shoot at people, it's not worth it. take it from a norwegian.
23:31:18 <monqy> elliott_: public humiliation
23:31:19 <elliott_> oerjan: stop making me into a person i don't want to be with laughter
23:31:24 <monqy> elliott_: is not cool?????
23:31:32 <elliott_> monqy: i am asking,,,sincere questions:(((
23:31:41 <elliott_> i do not play, crawl, at all, ever, so,
23:31:47 <monqy> its sort of a joke
23:31:47 <elliott_> it is good to improve things even if they are bad things
23:32:07 <elliott_> ais says that devs dislike it experienced players like it and everyone else dislikes it
23:32:10 <elliott_> is this true and also is this redundant
23:32:13 <monqy> see crawl has circular line of sight which is ridiculous
23:32:25 <elliott_> i would like to have eyes that have circular line of sight
23:33:20 <monqy> square los was tried but then got taken down so i made an account called squarelos to lament its demise
23:33:26 <oerjan> line of sight tracing a mandelbrot fractal
23:33:51 <monqy> anyway pretty much the only way i ever play crawl anymore is doing stupid things as squarelos true story
23:33:55 <elliott_> oerjan: stop youre just making the universe seem relaly inadequate
23:34:02 <elliott_> monqy: thats a good way to play games
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23:34:26 <Sgeo> What's wrong with circlelos?
23:35:48 <monqy> Sgeo: distance is such that an actual circle in crawl would look like a square this is how crawl space works....yet there's a bucnh of inconsistency like line of sight is based on what looks like a circle to unenlightened humans
23:35:54 <elliott_> Sgeo actually likes crawl though because he's a dumb
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23:36:09 <elliott_> "distance is such that an actual circle in crawl would look like a square this is how crawl space works"
23:36:30 <elliott_> isn't that just manhattan distance
23:36:31 <monqy> its just chebyshev space i think but it pretends it isnt
23:36:32 <zzo38> I think I understand
23:36:45 <monqy> manhattan is taxicab right? crawl has diagonals.
23:36:50 <monqy> or am i confusing things
23:36:51 <zzo38> I think manhattan is orthogonal moves only
23:36:53 <elliott_> taxicab yeah. and diagonals suck
23:37:29 <elliott_> hmm, sometimes I get urges to write things in C that relaly shouldn't be written in C
23:37:49 * Sgeo wants to try Chicken again for some reason
23:37:51 <zzo38> What kind of things do you mean?
23:38:01 <olsner> the best reason to write anything in anything is that it shouldn't be done
23:38:02 <zzo38> And what programming language do you think those things should be written in?
23:38:04 <elliott_> zzo38: i cannot say, it is too abhorrent
23:38:27 <Sgeo> elliott_, web toolkit's been done (for either C or C++, don't remember)
23:38:44 <Sgeo> http://www.webtoolkit.eu/wt
23:38:44 <zzo38> olsner: No, the best reason to write anything in anything is that it *cannot* be done (or at least, it seems like it, until it works)
23:39:01 <elliott_> olsner: i was trying to replicate java-style generics except without type erasure because i don't think you can even do that in C. why? well because it shouldn't be done. also because it meant i could implement a custom allocator which, like, knew all about your objects and could inspect them? which would be cool. but. basically i want to implement half a jvm at c level just because it sounds hard/fun
23:39:26 <Lymee> @pl \x = (magnitude x)<iterations
23:39:26 <lambdabot> expecting operator, pattern or "->"
23:39:31 <Lymee> @pl \x -> (magnitude x)<iterations
23:39:40 <zzo38> No, it is good thing learn, try, see what happened in case you can make something like that.
23:40:25 <Sgeo> Wt sounds fun but why C++?
23:40:32 <elliott_> olsner: unfortunately my first start ended up with a member of type TypeInfo##T for an array with element type T. and the problem is that the type of an array with element type T is "struct { TypeInfo##T ...; ... }" which doesn't really paste on to TypeInfo to create a valid token.
23:40:37 <zzo38> TeX also has its own memory allocation algorithms. In fact there are a lot of features of Pascal it doesn't use, although it does use some nonstandard features (but those ones are controlled by macros so you can change it a bit)
23:40:40 <elliott_> so I kind of need generic typeinfos. this is kind of gross.
23:40:49 <elliott_> if i remove those, i'm not sure how to typecheck it
23:43:07 <elliott_> this is like c++ sudoku: hard edition :(
23:43:51 <monqy> one time i treid searching for c++ soduko but i only got sudocu solvers i tw as awcufl ;_;
23:44:07 <zzo38> You can create static type checking (usable in ? : operators and such) in C89, even.
23:44:24 <elliott_> monqy: c++ sudoku is my invention and mine alone, also im the only known player, you should try though, you just need a copy of the C++0x features list, a recent g++ compiler, and an ability to forget that things aren't jokes
23:44:36 <elliott_> zzo38: do you have an example?
23:44:39 <zzo38> You just need to use unions and arrays and stuff and a few things
23:45:15 <zzo38> And then you can use the sizeof operator which is a constant and can make a macro that checks types at compile time to decide what to do!
23:46:08 * Sgeo is considering getting a Nook, but the DRM is worrying
23:46:11 <zzo38> I suppose I can try to make up an example, just a few lines I can type directly on here to describe
23:47:24 <zzo38> union { struct { int something; int something_else; int who_cares; } main; char typecheck1[2]; short typecheck2[1]; };
23:47:30 <Sgeo> On the other hand, apparently B&N DRM is easy to remove...
23:47:40 <Sgeo> Stuff may have changed though
23:48:06 <zzo38> #define figure_out(x) (sizeof(x->typecheck1[0])==1?abc(x):xyz(x))
23:48:33 <zzo38> This is my thoughts ideas, at least.
23:49:18 <Sgeo> Yeah, all this stuff looks old
23:49:41 <elliott_> zzo38: But how does that fail at type-time if it'st he wrong size?
23:49:49 <elliott_> the size is obviously always 1
23:50:23 <zzo38> Well, if (x) is of a different type, then sizeof(x->typecheck1[0]) is not 1
23:50:39 <zzo38> Or you can omit the [0] for another number
23:52:04 <zzo38> Of course this is using completely standard C89. GNU C has its own things. And what is probably acceptable in many compilers (or at least, should be) is make a member of the structure with zero elements array, and then you can measure the size of the array element it can be any number you want without messing up the rest of the program!
23:53:32 <zzo38> Although I don't know for sure, this idea might also be possible with LLVM to force each different structure type to be considered different by having different sizes of data of zero length array at the end.
23:55:31 <Sgeo> http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/jesus-deepak-chopra/1012718717?ean=9780061980404&itm=7&usri=jesus for the life of me, I can't figure out who the target market is
23:58:18 <zzo38> Did you ever read about the Uncarrot Tarot? I did have a idea of a four-player trick-taking game using those cards, which I called "Rulers". (It uses all the cards, including the metas.)
23:59:28 <zzo38> If a Hitchhiker is played to a trick, then you must Hitchhike.