00:01:00 <itidus20> someone points out that emma watson pic probably photoshopped
00:03:56 <itidus20> the conclusion i have reached is that religions can't make any claims which are beyond question and still have anything to do with them being religions
00:04:02 <zzo38> I have thought of a few more things about the algorithm I was having problems with recently.
00:04:34 <itidus20> in other words, to 'force' a conversion you have to distort the truth somehow
00:05:05 <zzo38> If you have "A[B]C", then maybe you can deal with "AB" and "AC" separately and then figure out if there is combined way of results like that
00:05:35 <zzo38> Because the result of "A" must agree in the final output
00:06:21 <monqy> itidus20: some people are gullible or think badly
00:07:04 <itidus20> monqy: yup.. in addition, many people are manipulative and opportunistic
00:07:20 <zzo38> If you have "YZ" but "Y" and "Z" has no words shared in them (such as "-a-a-a-a-a-b-b-b-b-b-a-a-c-c-c-c-c-d-d-d-d-d-c-c-c") then you can treat them separately; I don't know if this helps though.
00:08:45 <oerjan> itidus20: this reminds me of a comment i found on godel's lost letter today: "Buddhism discourages insistence (執著). A common pitfall is to insist on being non-insist."
00:08:54 <zzo38> If there is a word that can only appear once, then possibly it can be ignored.
00:09:16 <oerjan> (in fact i thought of you while reading it, since i had the impression you were something like a buddhist)
00:09:45 <zzo38> oerjan: I have read something like that.
00:10:18 <oerjan> (http://rjlipton.wordpress.com/2011/07/23/self-defeating-sentences/#comment-12512)
00:12:29 <oerjan> zzo38: the problem with dealing with AB and AC separately is that the combined cost is essentially A+B+C, meaning that the optimal choice for A might be different in AB, AC and A[B]C
00:12:43 <oerjan> this reminds me of subset sum and that kind of problem
00:13:28 <oerjan> which might lead to a way of proving it NP-complete, perhaps
00:13:38 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes now I can see that too. What is subset sum and that kind of problem?
00:14:17 <oerjan> or maybe hamiltonian circuit stuff as well
00:14:31 <oerjan> any NP-complete problem which requires summing things, i guess
00:14:47 <oerjan> er wait not hamiltonian
00:14:52 <zzo38> What is hamiltonian circuit stuff? I don't know much about these kind of things. I do not have much experience with it.
00:15:01 <itidus20> oerjan: i hanged out with them.. i never admitted to being one though
00:15:24 <zzo38> I can look in Wikipedia some things
00:15:43 <oerjan> zzo38: traveling salesman is the problem where you have a map (really graph) with distances between "cities" and you want to find the shortest path which passes through all of them
00:15:48 <itidus20> and i met this one buddhist who was actually quite wise..
00:16:59 <itidus20> I learned to approach buddhism with a wikipedia mindset.
00:17:10 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes the traveling salesman is one I have heard of, and yes I know what that is. (I don't know much else about it, except that one cover of mathNEWS joked about finding a O(1) solution (which is, shooting them).)
00:17:24 <itidus20> Taking each piece of "text" which comes to me and wondering what it's source is.
00:18:19 <itidus20> ok ok as an example.. as an example
00:18:29 <itidus20> take the bible.. there is no abstract bible.
00:18:36 <oerjan> zzo38: oh i realized something, it is not fixed which names have to printed inside each [ ] is it. so you can move printing things across the brackets...
00:18:56 <oerjan> that makes it even more complicated
00:18:59 <itidus20> each bible was published somewhere.. edited by someone.. liable to errors by that publisher and that editor
00:19:09 <zzo38> oerjan: Moving things across brackets is not allowed.
00:19:51 <zzo38> (Unless it is only temporary in order to help with the algorithm)
00:20:58 <itidus20> as I gradually start to see things this way I started gradually dismissing buddhism etc. attacking it with loud rants.
00:21:21 <zzo38> Although it doesn't look to be the same problem as hamiltonian or traveling salesmen, I don't know whether there can be similar ideas or not.
00:21:31 <itidus20> and then slowly i started to see that some of the people i thought were friends there were actually just manipulative like rotten apples.
00:21:33 <oerjan> yes iirc buddhism has some trouble tracing back its sources
00:22:13 <oerjan> islam tried very hard to avoid that, by getting things written down as soon as possible. but of course you still have to believe in muhammed for it.
00:22:40 <itidus20> the trick is to just force everything to follow the rules of logic
00:23:15 <oerjan> (i think muhammed criticized older religions for being unreliable in that way, so his followers had particular reason)
00:23:41 <elliott_> lol muhammad was all "let's make this one LAST, guys"
00:24:47 <itidus20> when arguing iwth muslims my attack tends to be of the form "suppose that allah lied to the prophet, or mixed truths with lies"
00:25:22 <itidus20> because they tend to base their case on how the quran contains truths
00:26:39 <itidus20> its also worth mentioning that apparently the name means "true god" and yet it is never translated as such which is curious
00:27:01 <itidus20> and im sure theres some psychological tactic to giving him 100 names
00:27:44 <Vorpal> <oerjan> yes iirc buddhism has some trouble tracing back its sources <-- on the other hand, Buddhism iirc clearly states that the stories are based on what they heard for a few generations.
00:28:02 <itidus20> but religions as we see them today are set up like puzzles for the houdini to wrestle his way out of
00:28:13 <Vorpal> oerjan, so they kind of avoid the problem by explicitly stating that it may or may not be a perfect account
00:28:28 <itidus20> it is not a perfect account :D
00:28:44 <Vorpal> itidus20, exactly. And it openly admits it
00:28:49 <Vorpal> itidus20, that is my point
00:29:02 <zzo38> Are there other Wikipedia articles that have things that can have some things related to my problem?
00:30:08 <itidus20> vorpal: yeah... but then... you come at buddhism thinking, well is there anything of value in this if i try to have a mindset of seeking truths rather than trying to abide by some community's sense of oblivion
00:30:29 <Vorpal> itidus20, hm? I'm not sure I understand what you meant there
00:30:46 <itidus20> right. i'll try and use proper english
00:31:02 <Vorpal> itidus20, don't worry, it is not my native language anyway ;P
00:31:37 <itidus20> oh what i said makes no sense. that is true
00:31:51 <Vorpal> right, not just me then
00:32:33 <itidus20> basically, there are certain properties common to religions.. a certain heavyness. creating obedience, followers, worshippers. blind faith
00:32:57 <Vorpal> itidus20, not blind faith when it comes to Buddhism though
00:33:23 <Vorpal> itidus20, I believe one of the books openly state that you should question everything.
00:33:30 <itidus20> but even buddhism has this dominating presence
00:33:30 <elliott_> yes nobody ever corrupts religious texts
00:33:47 <elliott_> fuck this meme of buddhism being this perfect beautiful religion of peaceful nice people NOT LIKE THOSE OTHER RELIGIONS
00:33:51 <itidus20> it's a very subtle aspect of religions, almost unspoken.
00:33:57 <Vorpal> I'm not a Buddhist myself, but... looking at the major religions it seems the one *least* out of touch with the modern world
00:34:10 <Vorpal> I'm perfectly happy to not believe in a religion.
00:34:30 <elliott_> ha ha ha ha ah ah h ha ha haha ha ha ha ha haha
00:34:36 <Vorpal> elliott_, come on, tell us what is so funny
00:34:47 <oerjan> zzo38: maybe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NP-complete_problems unfortunately it has many non-existent links
00:35:10 <monqy> a certain someone didnt fuck a certain meme when eliot told -- to
00:35:12 <itidus20> vorpal: the thing is though. simply including a few lines to say "you should question everything" doesn't entirely outweigh the reality-warping presence of a religion.
00:35:18 <Vorpal> elliott_, I never claimed buddism was perfect... But as far as I know there has been no holy wars in its name for example.
00:35:22 <monqy> this is hihgly funyn
00:35:42 <Vorpal> itidus20, that is true
00:35:43 <itidus20> it's a valuable statement yeah.
00:35:48 <elliott_> any holy wars in zoroastrianism's name
00:36:00 <Vorpal> elliott_, I never heard of that religion even
00:36:11 <itidus20> uhh.. it's such a statement can be used to lure people into a sense of security
00:36:33 <itidus20> so then it gets very confusing as to where to proceed next
00:37:27 <itidus20> with religion, there is this tendancy to let the mind relax and just believe any nonsense as if under hypnosis
00:37:48 <Vorpal> itidus20, good point indeed. But why not follow the advice of putting the religion itself under scrutiny. If you feel you need a religion at all.
00:38:20 <itidus20> the ones who do tend to be abrasive and cynical
00:38:53 * elliott_ bets Vorpal thinks buddhism doesn't have a hell either
00:39:09 <monqy> am i abrasive and cynical
00:39:12 <Vorpal> elliott_, well, that depends on how you define it.
00:39:17 <elliott_> Vorpal: no, it does not: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naraka_(Buddhism)
00:40:07 <Vorpal> elliott_, sorry you misunderstood it. I was talking about the bit about "thinks" here. I never considered it in fact. I haven't studied the religion in depth, and never claimed to have done that.
00:40:44 <itidus20> vorpal: so that last point i was making... its really about learning in general..
00:40:53 <itidus20> theres that point where a religion can't tell you
00:41:19 <itidus20> that whole idea about leading a horse to water
00:41:35 <Vorpal> itidus20, so pick up a few good suggestions about how to behave towards other people, and then ditch the rest of the religion :P
00:42:15 <itidus20> there is something which a person has to bring about on their own "like a horse drinking from the water"
00:43:09 <itidus20> like a person has an innate sense of how to seek truths
00:43:22 <itidus20> but, a religion sort of constrains them
00:43:33 <Vorpal> itidus20, You completely lost me now
00:44:21 <oerjan> i understand completely >:D
00:45:19 <oerjan> i may be exaggerating a bit
00:45:29 <itidus20> to deny everything in a religion is going too far
00:45:51 <itidus20> to deny nothing in a religion is not going far enough
00:46:12 <itidus20> buddhism also references "discrimination"
00:46:31 <Vorpal> itidus20, I was not suggesting you would explicitly deny it. Just leave it as "unknown" until further notice. Tri-state logic or something (okay, not quite that)
00:46:57 <elliott_> comex_: why're you trying to exile coppro
00:47:03 <itidus20> there is never any benefit from playing dumb when seeking truth
00:47:16 <itidus20> like.. pulling punches.. compromising.. making allowances..
00:48:23 <itidus20> and religions expect you to just make all these compromises for the benefit of said religion
00:49:21 <zzo38> oerjan: That list of NP-complete problems doesn't seem to help me much, especially since most are linked to nonexisting files
00:49:42 <itidus20> and so.. when thinking about a religion a suggestion comes to you "I should deny the evidence before me because my religion says so"
00:51:25 <itidus20> there is no room for white lies in the search for truth
00:51:37 <zzo38> I wonder if there are other ways to change my problem to equivalent ones
00:53:34 <oerjan> zzo38: well the usual way to prove a problem NP-complete is to make a reduction from an NP-complete problem to it, similar to turing-completeness (except the reduction must be polynomial time, not just computable)
00:54:43 <elliott_> oerjan: I used to wish there was an add-on term to TC that included being able to do things with the same time complexity, but then I realised that UTMs are slower than real-world computers
00:55:12 <elliott_> I'm not sure what the correct model is; things with bignum addresses tend to have constant-time natural arithmetic, which is, of course, impossible
00:55:52 <oerjan> yeah anything finer grained than polynomial tends to depend on model
00:56:40 <itidus20> and this leads up to asking if anything of value is left in buddhism if you approach it stoically, to never say "I should deny the evidence before me because my religion says so"
00:56:43 <oerjan> (of course some models like minsky machines don't even get that)
00:57:08 <itidus20> to never say "I should subvert my search for truth for some other purpose"
00:57:13 <elliott_> oerjan: which is upsetting... It seems "obvious" that you can't do addition in constant time, but explaining why tends to invoke a real-world-esque assembly language doing a bignum addition loop
00:57:21 <zzo38> oerjan: OK, I think I understand what you mean (a little bit, at least). I don't know if that can solve my problem, though, or how it can do so.
00:57:31 <elliott_> Why does our universe have these apparent time complexities?
00:57:48 <itidus20> to never say "I should subvert my search for truth because it makes buddhism look bad.. or it offends someone.. or it brings up things I can't face"
00:58:01 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
00:59:22 <itidus20> and you can always suppose you were the only human left alive.. and try and put yourself in those shoes and wonder which artifacts of religion would persist in your mind despite all the people who care being dead
00:59:30 <elliott_> wow, there's a Wikipedia article on [[Essjay controversy]]
00:59:40 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
01:00:10 <elliott_> itidus20: Everything would persist in your mind, you can't "undo" growing up in an environment
01:01:59 <Sgeo_> elliott_, why wouldn't it?
01:02:15 <Sgeo_> <elliott_> wow, there's a Wikipedia article on [[Essjay controversy]]
01:02:40 <elliott_> well, I forgot that it received significant media coverage
01:02:49 <elliott_> and I'm unsure how objective Wikipedia can be on that topic :P
01:03:38 <oerjan> zzo38: it's sad that the Code Generation section is entirely missing links
01:05:16 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NP-complete_problems#Code_generation
01:05:45 <zzo38> oerjan: I can see that.
01:05:54 <zzo38> That isn't the only one.
01:06:07 <itidus20> (reminding that i am not a buddhist before i continue) i think there is a certain error where people invent conceptions to explain religions.
01:06:11 <elliott_> oerjan: Wikipedia tends to lack a lot of in-depth material on CS, I notice; I suspect with a lot of other topics, too
01:06:11 <zzo38> There are other problems entirely missing links
01:06:54 <itidus20> as far as a god goes, if such a god exists you won't find him by trying to imagine a subset of the universe and giving it a booming voice
01:07:13 <itidus20> if there is a god, you don't have to imagine it right? its not about imagining
01:07:24 <itidus20> its just an interpretation of what you see
01:08:22 <itidus20> suppose i suddenly found a box .. i could spend a week imagining what is inside it
01:08:59 <monqy> I'd probably get bored after a few minutes
01:09:03 <zzo38> And then someone will force you to look inside and now the state is changed due to observing it
01:09:12 <itidus20> well i could iterate through all the items in my bedroom
01:09:24 <itidus20> and suppose that similar items existed in the box
01:10:26 <itidus20> so imagination is not a very accurate tool
01:11:05 <monqy> you've gone confusing again
01:11:19 <itidus20> well suppose the universe is the box
01:11:36 <itidus20> and the reason you can't see is because its too big instead of too small
01:12:11 <itidus20> now if you imagine a god it might be outside of this box, or inside of it, (or both, or neither... )
01:12:41 <itidus20> or maybe its an analogy which can't go far enough
01:12:47 <monqy> whats a god................................
01:12:58 <Sgeo_> My opponent's plan doesn't go too far enough!
01:13:34 <monqy> does your plan go too far enough
01:13:42 <itidus20> im not entirely atheist.. im more agnostic i think
01:14:03 <itidus20> if i'm scared enough i'll pray
01:15:16 <itidus20> but then theres this idea of the economics of, on the one hand, a group proliferating the idea of a god, and on the other hand people deriving a sense of security from it
01:16:00 <elliott_> praying in times of stress doesn't stop you being an atheist, it just means you're being irrational at the time (as far as an atheist is concerned)
01:16:04 <itidus20> and a supply demand idea of: if people like me didn't thump bibles all day you wouldn't have any god to take refuge with in times of stress
01:16:12 <elliott_> it would be kind of cool if atheism made you ALL RATIONAL ALL THE TIME
01:16:33 <itidus20> yeah, atheism is a bit of a religion like that..
01:16:49 <itidus20> it is sticking to a hard line for its own sake rather than examining evidence on it's own merits
01:17:08 <elliott_> nah, that's a corruption of the term by idiots who ~just deconverted~ and religious people
01:17:25 <zzo38> oerjan: I wonder if anyone else can help me, too, with my problem?
01:17:28 <elliott_> to trot out a cliché but accurate example, you wouldn't give credence to the idea of Russell's teapot, either
01:17:44 <elliott_> any "atheist" who thinks they can "disprove" god or that it's LOGICALLY false or whatever is just an idiot
01:18:00 <Sgeo_> elliott_, doesn't that depend on the definition of "god" in question?
01:18:35 <itidus20> but the idea of prayer as being rational or irrational.. itself may be irrational :P
01:18:38 <elliott_> Sgeo_: plz no, stop before you show ur prolog
01:19:00 <elliott_> itidus20: well from an atheist perspective, thinking prayer will produce results because a god will answer it is obviously irrational
01:19:23 <Sgeo_> Prayer could produce the "result" of calming you down, even from an atheist perspective
01:20:17 <elliott_> well duh. that still requires suspension of disbelief, which stress happily provides
01:21:22 <itidus20> since prayer is worked by imagining a thing being prayed to
01:21:55 <itidus20> which is no doubt due to millenia of this and that
01:22:36 <itidus20> one day maybe the target of prayers won't be a self-interested entiyt
01:23:19 <monqy> what do you mean by that
01:23:48 <elliott_> well prayer like any ritual could act as stress relief.
01:23:56 <elliott_> I would not call it prayer if you don't expect it to "do" anything, though
01:24:09 <monqy> do you mean "one day maybe people will pray to something that isn't a self-interested entity" or "maybe one day the things to which people pray won't be so self-interested"
01:24:59 <itidus20> maybe one day prayer won't be a covert taboo topic evoking religious imagery
01:25:16 <elliott_> prayer is like the least taboo thing, at least in some places
01:25:20 <itidus20> but that we are all conditioned to pray to pre-defined gods is clear
01:25:33 <Sgeo_> It's official, I'm a fucking idiot. I was pressing the power button on my case because I was convinced that my case falli't attached to anything. I was wrong
01:25:43 <Sgeo_> *falling apart meant it
01:26:38 <itidus20> im starting to lose a grip on reality in my posts now
01:27:23 <itidus20> pray to the flying spaghetti monster
01:28:37 <itidus20> yeah.. fsm is a constructed god
01:29:14 <itidus20> i don't know the story of all the gods etc
01:29:35 <itidus20> but fsm is certainly a constructed god just as scientology is a constructed religion
01:29:47 <itidus20> and how esperanto and lojban are constructed languages
01:30:56 <zzo38> Scientology is not a proper religion, I think
01:31:56 <elliott_> it's a cult, but cult is just a word for religions that do things people don't like
01:32:09 <zzo38> It is more like someone who try to earn money and keep everything secret and so on they have reports.
01:32:19 <elliott_> the Church of Scientology(tm) is obviously a completely abhorrent organisation, objectively, but I don't see how you can dismiss the beliefs any more than another religion
01:32:28 <elliott_> there are freezoners who practice the beliefs outside of the CoS.
01:32:56 <zzo38> elliott_: I don't know about the freezoners. But maybe they are a more proper religion; I don't know.
01:33:15 <elliott_> zzo38: religion =/= religious organisation
01:33:32 <elliott_> Scientology-ala-CoS and Scientology-ala-free-zoners may be sects but they're the same religion
01:35:22 <itidus20> linguistically "the truth" implies only one truth
01:36:15 <elliott_> the truth is the set of all things that are true
01:36:27 <elliott_> presumably you're proposing logical relativism
01:36:35 <itidus20> would the truth explain collective conciousness?
01:36:46 <elliott_> define "collective consciousness" :P
01:38:27 <itidus20> each individual probably has memories of being conscious in the past
01:38:35 <itidus20> former instances of their conciousness
01:38:54 <itidus20> and thus can potentially anticipate future instances of their conciousness
01:39:30 <itidus20> and can also try to guess what anothers conciousness is like.. but never really know
01:40:01 <itidus20> and so taking each individuals conciousness as a specific thing, one can imagine a generalization of conciousness
01:40:10 <itidus20> it has a visual field for example..
01:41:10 <elliott_> <itidus20> each individual probably has memories of being conscious in the past
01:41:13 <itidus20> they don't seem to occupy a known space
01:41:20 <elliott_> but at the same time, I don't see how this relates to "the truth"
01:41:36 <itidus20> _everything_ relates to "the truth" :P
01:42:01 <elliott_> how does the truth need to explain collective consciousness?
01:42:06 <zzo38> I don't think pure consciousness would have a visual field for sure. It might be related but I think it is not the same thing at all
01:42:09 <elliott_> (and why does the truth have any obligations at all?)
01:42:22 <itidus20> ok i am throwing a few fallacies around
01:42:47 <itidus20> given that i don't know what the truth is i can't assume everything relates to it]
01:42:58 <zzo38> My ideas of consciousness are very different and incomplete (mostly because I don't know everything).
01:43:59 <itidus20> answer is cos it would make life easier
01:44:34 <itidus20> it would be nice to make some general rule
01:44:46 <elliott_> itidus20: btw, i don't get an annoying reminder someone mentioned me if you misspell my name ;-) you could try tab completion ("ell<tab>" should do it)
01:45:54 <itidus20> i don't know if my client has name completion
01:46:26 <elliott_> one, every client does; two, you're using XChat
01:47:36 -!- Lymee has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:47:52 <itidus20> if i hit tab, it jumps around the GUI
01:47:56 <zzo38> I don't think every client does.
01:48:10 <itidus20> its just i don't know how to use the client
01:48:13 <zzo38> Maybe some have it optional or use different keys, too.
01:48:55 <elliott_> itidus20: you need to type in a name prefix first
01:49:18 <zzo38> Maybe you can use a macro if it would help better, I don't know...
01:50:04 <itidus20> why didn't you just say ""ell<tab>" "
01:50:16 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
01:50:27 <zzo38> Maybe "el" is ambiguous because "Elizacat" also has that prefix (and names are case insensitive in IRC)
01:50:41 <itidus20> i assumed i could get away with just typing 1 letter
01:51:29 * elliott_ goes to Settings → Preferences → Input box → Nick Completion and changes sorting to last spoken
01:51:42 <elliott_> you may want to check that configuration too, itidus20
01:51:56 -!- Lymee has joined.
01:52:17 <zzo38> What I do know, is, there is different tab completion, such as Windows and GNU have two different kind of tab completion. Windows completes the entire text and pushing tab again completes a different filename, with GNU it only completes the unambiguous part and then if you push again, it list all of them.
01:53:35 <elliott_> itidus20: * elliott_ goes to Settings → Preferences → Input box → Nick Completion and changes sorting to last spoken
01:53:43 <elliott_> then it'll always be me because i never shut up
01:53:49 <zzo38> I don't know if they can change tab completion option between Windows-style and GNU-style
01:56:02 <oerjan> maybe it doesn't actually start registering when people speak before you set the option
01:56:26 <itidus20> its good enough -- beter than be fore
01:59:01 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
02:07:37 <itidus20> i think the neighbors dog is in hear
02:08:00 <itidus20> rips the damn fence palings in 2 to see the neighbours dog
02:11:59 -!- cheater_ has joined.
02:13:11 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving).
02:15:08 -!- Nisstyre has joined.
02:57:29 -!- derrik has joined.
03:07:44 -!- jcp|1 has joined.
03:08:26 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
03:09:22 -!- jcp|other has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
03:13:51 -!- jcp has joined.
03:16:56 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
03:18:30 -!- jcp|other has joined.
03:18:57 -!- azaq23 has joined.
03:20:06 -!- jcp|1 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
03:20:31 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
03:20:42 -!- derrik has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:27:22 -!- jcp has joined.
03:33:02 -!- MSleep has joined.
03:34:16 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
03:35:01 -!- jcp|other has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
03:36:01 -!- jcp has joined.
03:41:21 -!- javawizard has joined.
04:19:28 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:37:17 -!- TeruFSX has joined.
04:44:54 <Sgeo_> Randomly checked MSPA, there's an update
04:45:08 <Sgeo_> (Ok, so I'm not good, I've had a bunch of misses like that.)
04:45:13 <Sgeo_> (Is this like gambling?)
04:51:31 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
04:53:04 -!- TeruFSX has joined.
04:54:02 <Sgeo_> I may just give up on Chicken Scheme
04:54:48 <fizzie> What's wrong with the "there's an egg for that" Scheme?
04:56:11 <oerjan> nothing, Sgeo_ just always chickens out
04:56:39 * oerjan swats himself -----###
04:56:58 <Sgeo_> fizzie, I can't get eggs to install, and the fact that on the mailing list, a regular was unable to get the egg I wanted to install to install for himself, for a different reason, is not encouraging
04:57:03 <fizzie> And I didn't even need to groan.
04:57:17 <fizzie> Some of the eggs are a bit... rotten.
05:04:08 <elliott_> <elliott_> ^ul (fizzie: PUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUSH)S
05:04:08 <elliott_> <fungot> fizzie: PUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUSH
05:04:09 <fungot> elliott_: would the second statement you said allow for 0 or more instances of the " pc" of an acceptable size. :p
05:04:11 <fungot> elliott_: how would that work ( assuming you did everything right, which is deliminated by dollar signs. how can ( with a minimum amount of writing
05:07:16 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
05:19:50 <pikhq> Having meaningful, pleasant IRL social interactions is a fairly nice feeling.
05:20:30 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
05:33:47 <Sgeo_> <netdaemon> for instance, pass a hash to a procedure directly
05:33:53 <Sgeo_> <netdaemon> the keys and values get mixed up
05:33:53 <Sgeo_> <netdaemon> wat is that
05:34:00 <Sgeo_> <netdaemon> Sgeo_, the keys and values you set before you pass, are different inside what you pass it to
05:34:09 <Sgeo_> <netdaemon> in other words foo = 1, bar = 2, could end up foo = 2, bar = 1
05:34:09 <Sgeo_> <netdaemon> you *have* to pass it by reference
05:34:09 <Sgeo_> <netdaemon> or you get that crap
05:34:38 <Sgeo_> Can someone explain what's going on with that? If that's really as he said, that's... nonsensical
05:39:12 <zzo38> Yes, if it is how it says, why would it be like that?
05:39:35 <Sgeo_> That's what I'm asking here
05:40:00 <zzo38> Yes, I don't know either.
05:40:38 <zzo38> Let's make something like a text adventure game:
05:40:55 <zzo38> You are on the deck of a navy ship. You can see the flags and sails from here.
05:41:25 <zzo38> On the deck is the captain, the captain's brother, a bucket of fire, and some other sailors.
05:41:35 <zzo38> You can go fore or starboard.
05:42:32 <Sgeo_> I split myself into multple selves and let one self ascend to godhood
05:42:45 <zzo38> You are unable to. Try again.
05:43:44 -!- JamezQ has joined.
05:43:56 <zzo38> s/Try again/Please try again/
05:44:44 <Sgeo_> "The excess seen by the Atlas team has reached a 2.8 sigma level of certainty. A three-sigma result means there is roughly a one in 1,000 chance that the result is attributable to some statistical quirk in the data."
05:44:52 <Sgeo_> I'm not sure I would phrase that like that
05:45:23 <Sgeo_> Meh, doesn't matter
05:45:49 <zzo38> Sgeo_: I don't even know what the Atlas team is.
05:46:19 <zzo38> (There are three kind of lies: normal lies, really bad lies, and statistics.)
05:46:19 <Sgeo_> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14266358
05:47:50 <zzo38> (Why don't you try something else in my game? Something other than splitting yourself and godhood and so on.)
05:48:16 <Sgeo_> Examine bucket of fire
05:48:59 <zzo38> The fire contains rags that were previously used for clothing but are now burnt and cannot be used. The fire is very low by now.
05:49:34 <Sgeo_> Sorry, I'm just being silly, not taking this game seriously
05:50:19 <zzo38> The fire goes out quickly due to your hand wet.
05:50:38 <zzo38> (Try something a bit less silly, perhaps.)
05:50:52 <zzo38> (And, yes, I am also reading that BBC article)
05:50:53 <Sgeo_> So I have a DM that won't let me die?
05:50:58 <Sgeo_> Well, I'm going to try
05:51:00 * itidus20 takes out a cell-shaded wind waker wand and changes the direction of the wind.
05:51:42 <zzo38> OK. You are now in the water. Your uniform is getting wet.
05:52:10 <Sgeo_> I exhale, put my head underwater, and take a few deep breaths
05:52:42 <zzo38> You try, but sink and drown before you are able. Now you are dead. You lose.
05:53:09 <zzo38> itidus20: OK you are just kidding. Try something else. From the start.
05:54:53 <zzo38> You can see some cargo blocking the way any direction except aft and down. Nothing else is in here.
05:54:53 <itidus20> oops.. i got confused.. ill go back to the deck
05:55:11 <zzo38> OK. Now you are back at the deck.
05:55:18 <zzo38> The whistle blows.
05:55:32 <zzo38> Being an experienced sailor, you can recognize that they want everyone on the deck by now.
05:55:39 <fizzie> Sgeo_: If you call sub(%foo) and %foo contains ("a" => 1, "b" => 2), it will push either "a", 1, "b", 2 or "b", 2, "a", 1 on the argument stack (@_) of the sub. So the order is not defined, but either way it will have keys and their corresponding values next to each other. And if you build a new hash with %bar = @_ inside the sub, then %bar will contain the same keys and values as %foo.
05:55:56 <zzo38> The same things are on the deck as before, plus Also, and some other doppelgangers.
05:56:08 <zzo38> s/doppelgangers/sailors/
05:56:18 <zzo38> (Why did I write doppelgangers? That makes no sense.)
05:56:31 <Sgeo_> fizzie, he's supposedly not complaining about undefined order, just that keys and values don't stay associated
05:56:47 <Sgeo_> fizzie, he left, when he's next on, I'll ask for a concrete example
05:57:03 <zzo38> The captain of this ship is a man of average height and is wearing a captain's uniform. He is holding a spyglass.
05:57:47 <itidus20> Talk to captain. (should i specify what i say?)
05:57:50 <fizzie> Sgeo_: Well, that doesn't happen.
05:58:07 <itidus20> (by the way i havent really played text adventure games... ive only heard of them)
05:58:11 <fizzie> $ perl -e '%foo = ("a" => 1, "b" => 2); sub foo { print join(" ", @_), "\n"; } foo(%foo);'
05:58:12 <zzo38> The captain notices some pirate ships in the distance. You can see them now, too.
05:59:03 <itidus20> (Should I try just using natural english?)
05:59:17 <zzo38> itidus20: Do it if you want to. This is not a *real* text adventure game.
05:59:40 <zzo38> (Although an actual text adventure game could be written based on this and other things)
06:00:47 <zzo38> You look about the same as always, except that you are now wearing a guest uniform.
06:01:09 <zzo38> After you do that, the captain looks throught he spyglass, notices something, and passes it to his brother.
06:03:22 <zzo38> The captain told you he noticed something that is probably bad, on those pirate ships. Something bad will probably happen.
06:03:35 <zzo38> After doing so, the captain's brother passes the spyglass to you.
06:04:13 <zzo38> The bucket contains some old rags used for clothing, but are now burnt. The fire has gone out by now.
06:05:19 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
06:05:20 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
06:06:54 <zzo38> The sailors are nervous of your presence and do not wish to talk to you right now.
06:07:35 <zzo38> s/ are / seem to be /
06:09:45 <itidus20> (does anyone else have any ideas?)
06:10:44 <zzo38> (You can always wait or check your inventory if you have nothing else to do.)
06:11:19 <zzo38> You have a guest uniform (being worn) and a rope.
06:12:10 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
06:12:40 <zzo38> Oops, sorry. Let me try again.
06:12:48 <zzo38> You have a guest uniform (being worn), a rope, and a spyglass.
06:12:54 <zzo38> (You already have the spyglass, I just forgot)
06:13:03 <itidus20> Look at pirate ship with spyglass.
06:13:29 <zzo38> You look at the pirate ship. You can see some shaman waving their arms. You recognize it as some kind of summoning spell.
06:13:52 <zzo38> As you do so, the water shakes a bit and hooks come up out of the water and get attached to the edge of the ship.
06:15:33 <itidus20> Look around with the spyglass.
06:16:29 <zzo38> You notice nothing special. You can see the same things you have seen before. There are five pirate ships in the distance.
06:16:58 <zzo38> After doing so, some kuo-toas[1] arrive and climb on the deck.
06:17:20 <zzo38> [1] See D&D 3.5e Monster Manual for information.
06:19:07 <zzo38> Instead of answering, they try to throw a sticky rope at you. Luckily, they missed.
06:19:37 <zzo38> In addition, Also appears to transform into a gray featureless humanoid shape, still wearing the guest uniform, but also wielding a green sword.
06:20:03 <zzo38> The captain is wondering whether something should be done about this transformation, as well as about the attack.
06:22:16 <zzo38> You miss. One of the kuo-toa tries to attack you and this time you get hit by a sticky rope. One also tries to throw a rope at Also and manages to hit. Also tries to attack one of them with the green sword and hits, knocking one unconscious.
06:24:09 <itidus20> Throw rope at a concious kuo-toa
06:24:35 <zzo38> You try to take it but now it is stuck on your hand too.
06:24:56 <zzo38> (You can try again if you want, or do something else.)
06:25:26 <itidus20> (i was being kind of stupid because obviously my regular piece of rope is not a weapon)
06:25:30 -!- aloril has joined.
06:25:50 <zzo38> Correct. Your regular piece of rope is not a weapon.
06:25:54 <zzo38> You are now hiding.
06:26:22 <zzo38> However, you almost get hit by a cannon.
06:26:28 <zzo38> Also hits one and kills one kuo-toa.
06:28:17 <zzo38> You notice the same things as before.
06:28:29 <zzo38> You accidentally dropped the spyglass and now you have to pay for it.
06:28:42 <zzo38> Some of the kuo-toas are now trying to retreat back into the water.
06:28:58 <zzo38> Others are still trying to attack.
06:29:09 <zzo38> One notices you, and attempts to attack you, and misses.
06:29:54 <zzo38> You miss. They try to attack you and slightly damage you.
06:30:09 <zzo38> Also, and some of the sailors, try to attack the other kuo-toas.
06:30:23 <zzo38> Some of the sailors appear to be ensuring the cannons are ready to attack the other ships if it becomes necessary.
06:31:07 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
06:32:18 <zzo38> You tried again, and still missed.
06:32:42 <zzo38> (Next time, you can try to stun them or cast a spell. You do have a few spells.)
06:34:13 <zzo38> - Frotz (makes an object emit light)
06:34:25 <zzo38> - Erase (erases writing on an object)
06:34:36 <itidus20> i have no clue what spells i have :P
06:34:52 <zzo38> - Affect Magical Aura (change the magic aura of something to appear to be something else)
06:35:00 <zzo38> - Grease (makes the floor slippery)
06:35:10 <zzo38> - True Seeing (see past illusions and other magic)
06:35:17 <zzo38> End of spell list.
06:35:33 <zzo38> Actually, I will list one more:
06:35:54 <zzo38> - Time Hop (makes an object vanish, and reappear in the same place in 30 seconds to 1 minute (you can select the duration))
06:36:56 <itidus20> Cast Grease. Ideally under my foes but i'll still do it if it'll affect me
06:37:27 <zzo38> OK. Some of the kuo-toas, as well as some of the sailors, as well as Also, all slip and fall down.
06:37:40 <zzo38> You seem to be unaffected at the current moment.
06:38:28 <zzo38> You cast True Seeing. You notice nothing special.
06:38:37 <zzo38> Some of the kuo-toas, some of the sailors, and Also, all get up.
06:38:53 <zzo38> One of them attacks Also and misses. One attacks you and moderately damages you.
06:39:34 <zzo38> OK. You manage to stun three of them at once.
06:39:57 <zzo38> Also attacks one of the unstunned ones and hits. One of the kuo-toas attacks Also and slightly damages him.
06:40:07 <zzo38> Nobody manages to attack you.
06:41:04 <zzo38> OK. You hit. He is now unconscious.
06:41:21 <zzo38> Also attacks one of the unstunned ones and hits. One of the huo-toas attacks Also and slightly damages him.
06:41:25 <zzo38> The rest retreat back into the water.
06:42:55 <zzo38> Somehow you still missed.
06:44:02 <zzo38> All of them are already either stunned, unconscious, or dead. Nothing happens, although some of them might be stunned for a longer duration due to this.
06:46:03 <zzo38> Time passes. The captain's brother reveals a scroll case.
06:47:25 <zzo38> It is a plain scroll case one foot in length, and appears to be waterproof.
06:47:41 <zzo38> The captain's brother remarks that perhaps the pirates wanted this scroll case, and not the gold.
06:48:00 <zzo38> However, he doesn't know how they could have known about this scroll case, since it was supposed to be a secret.
06:49:56 -!- azaq23 has changed nick to oriaw.
06:50:20 -!- oriaw has changed nick to derivector.
06:51:22 -!- derivector has changed nick to azaq23.
06:51:27 <zzo38> It is not yours to open. It belongs to the king.
06:52:08 <zzo38> (You can stop here if you wish. Note that this is based on a scene from a D&D game I played and there is nothing else to do. Read it if you want to, including for a complete list of spells and my solutions)
06:52:20 -!- azaq23 has changed nick to azaq23p.
06:52:26 -!- azaq23p has changed nick to azaq23.
06:52:50 <itidus20> i am pretty clueless about d & d... :P
06:53:12 <itidus20> i mean not entirely clueless but yeah
06:53:41 <zzo38> itidus20: That is OK. You might be able to understand some of it, since the main text (but not necessarily the foot notes or character sheets) are written in normal text.
06:53:53 <itidus20> i tend to be so hesitant with these things
06:54:12 <itidus20> in life i have an enormous amount of difficulty slipping out of character
06:54:26 <zzo38> Where I started on the deck here, is not actually where the game stats.
06:54:31 <zzo38> It is not even where the session starts.
06:55:14 <itidus20> certain neuroses i haven't learned to break..
06:55:14 <zzo38> Both the source file (TeX) and the output file (DVI) are available. So is the macro package I wrote for the purpose of recording D&D games, as well as a recording of a different game I am in as well.
06:55:32 <zzo38> itidus20: What neuroses are those? Can you try harder?
06:55:44 <itidus20> I tend to make friends with psychos in real life.
06:56:09 <itidus20> I'm used to hating the people i spend most of my time with in real life
06:56:21 <itidus20> well not lately.. since i have withdrawn to my moms basement
06:56:38 <zzo38> Well, sometimes I do crazy things too (not always).
06:56:47 <zzo38> There is currently nothing in my basement.
06:57:02 <itidus20> people who only keep me around as company to take advantage of me
06:57:07 <zzo38> So it would not be useful to go there, except to fix things, measure things, or to get away from the heat.
06:57:20 <itidus20> not because they want me to enjoy their company
06:57:43 <zzo38> O, well, then you would have to try harder to avoid them taking advantage of you in circumstances when you do not want it.
06:58:07 <itidus20> i know that personal stuff is supposed to not enter the room
06:58:24 <zzo38> That is OK, you don't have to.
06:58:53 <zzo38> How much do you know of TeX, anyways?
06:59:35 <zzo38> I might want to tell you that the first time I played D&D, I selected race/class at random, from the Player's Handbook only. Resulting in a human wizard. Who had armor and a mace.
07:00:32 <zzo38> itidus20: Yes it is related. LaTeX is a format and a set of macros and packages written on top of a variant of TeX, which is PDF-e-XeTeX.
07:00:54 <zzo38> I prefer Plain TeX, and use it for my stuff.
07:01:02 <itidus20> The world has always been a place where some are happy by making others suffer.
07:01:34 <itidus20> These days it is more implicit than explicit.
07:02:02 <zzo38> I suppose it might be. Often because some people are being greedy or stupid (or both).
07:02:06 <itidus20> On the surface society pretends to be happy and friendly.
07:02:48 <zzo38> Well, mostly, I guess.
07:02:53 <zzo38> Write a report about it if you want to.
07:04:11 <itidus20> But there is an economy based on the ability to cope with stress or not.
07:04:20 <itidus20> Those who cope well with stress and conflict thrive
07:04:38 <itidus20> And those who don't become the food.
07:05:27 <itidus20> In other words, if you have to withdraw from stress and conflict, you lose.
07:05:50 <pikhq_> So, literal interpretation of Genesis time...
07:05:52 <zzo38> Well yes I do suppose there is a lot of that these days.
07:06:21 <pikhq_> Wouldn't every animal on the ark have to carry every unique disease for that species?
07:07:03 <pikhq_> Well, actually, breeding pair. Could be split between the two.
07:07:19 <Sgeo_> For the clean animals, there's 7, so
07:07:20 <zzo38> pikhq_: I don't see why.
07:07:27 <pikhq_> zzo38: Otherwise they wouldn't exist.
07:07:42 <zzo38> pikhq_: O, yes. Now I see.
07:07:45 <pikhq_> zzo38: Only species extant on the ark could exist post-flood.
07:07:59 <zzo38> Do the "clean" animals have any unique diseases?
07:08:01 <pikhq_> If we go with a literal interpretation and claim no evolution since.
07:08:11 <pikhq_> Uh, yes, there's rather a *lot* of clean animals.
07:08:19 <zzo38> Yes I can see now, we are going with a literal interpretation
07:08:44 <pikhq_> (never mind that there has been speciation more recent than the claimed occurance of the ark story...)
07:09:16 <zzo38> But obviously the people who wrote it made up something because they didn't actually know. It is mythology, like other mythology is.
07:09:34 <pikhq_> Yes, the only problem being that a notable number of people believe it literally happened.
07:09:55 <pikhq_> Unlike, say, Greek mythology, where there's maybe a few nutjobs that do.
07:10:21 <zzo38> OK, yes I know those things.
07:10:53 -!- elliott_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:11:11 <zzo38> If they have all animals, they must also have all small ones, big ones, and one that can only live in the water...
07:11:20 -!- elliott has joined.
07:11:50 <zzo38> Although maybe by "animals" in that text they didn't include people or fish
07:12:08 <zzo38> And by "bird" they also included bats
07:14:47 <pikhq_> zzo38: Well, they'd have serious issues even with fish.
07:14:53 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
07:14:59 <pikhq_> Either the saltwater or the freshwater fish would be *fucked*.
07:15:24 <zzo38> On another note, I realized I have the full text of King James Bible in my computer, but not the deuterocanonical books. I have been told that the deuterocanonical books are part of the original King James Bible however. Do you know of such texts are available?
07:15:37 <zzo38> pikhq_: Yes of course I can see that
07:19:59 <zzo38> Of course there is a lot of absurdity and stuff in the Bible; however, the text that God created light at first before creating the light producing objects (the sun), does make sense, from both scientific and from spiritual points of view. It might be said to be the Light of God; or the various electromagnetic radiation of various frequencies including light near the start of the universe; or whatever. At least *this* part is not complete nonse
07:20:16 <itidus20> i have stacks of ebooks on my pc. some legal. some illegal.
07:20:25 <zzo38> But there still is a lot of nonsense nevertheless, of the Bible.
07:20:45 <pikhq_> zzo38: Sheer dumb luck, but hey.
07:21:06 <pikhq_> Wikisource seems to have the KJV apocrypha.
07:21:07 <itidus20> I downloaded this sweet cache of philosophical texts
07:21:14 <pikhq_> https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikisource/en/wiki/Bible_%28King_James%29
07:21:29 <zzo38> pikhq_: Yes, you would be correct about that. Of course it is unlikely the people who wrote that part of Genesis (note it comes from various sources) knew anything about science.
07:21:57 * pikhq_ is well aware of the documentary hypothesis
07:23:29 <itidus20> there is always the problems of where to apply literalism and where not to. also interpretations of any text will always vary.
07:24:12 <itidus20> and the history of any given text that old tends to be mysterious enough that it's anyones guess.
07:24:21 <zzo38> What I have of the KJV is in plain ASCII text format, and is accessible over both HTTP and gopher protocols. I would like to find one similar thing to add (perhaps as a separate file) of the apocrypha.
07:24:25 <itidus20> And theer is also mistranslations from language A to language B
07:24:30 <pikhq_> itidus20: Why should I care about whether any of it's literal?
07:24:45 <pikhq_> zzo38: Well, the Wikisource version has the Apocrypha.
07:24:47 <itidus20> for instance "40" apparently can also mean "many"
07:24:48 <zzo38> itidus20: Yes I noticed those things too. There can be mistranslations and unknown things about the history.
07:25:30 <pikhq_> itidus20: The only things that could be taken literally and not contradict, well, essentially all empirical evidence we have are also fairly irrelevant.
07:26:14 <zzo38> The reason I am using KJV is simply because it is in the public domain (Wikisource says it is perpetual copyright in the UK, but I don't live there).
07:26:18 <itidus20> and religions spring up all across the world.. so they are natural enough for us to have
07:26:30 <itidus20> just as written language sprung up
07:26:34 <pikhq_> zzo38: Friggin' crown copyright.
07:26:52 <pikhq_> itidus20: And we know of some religions in cultures without written languages.
07:27:04 <pikhq_> It really does seem to be a universal.
07:27:51 <itidus20> what I really miss about the times long gone is the natural beauty of the land before we ravaged it
07:28:19 <itidus20> with roads.. and what do roads exist for? faster transport..
07:28:33 <pikhq_> Roads are also pretty shitty transport.
07:28:37 <itidus20> and concrete.. well i dont know the exact role of masses of concrete
07:28:58 <itidus20> welll population growth has a role in it too of course
07:29:22 <pikhq_> Fairly simple, actually. If we didn't build those we would be *way* over capacity.
07:29:35 <itidus20> but its just that human activities are so pronounced.. the rest of the plants and animals can't keep a balance with us
07:29:44 <zzo38> Yes it is true the human people are also the problem of making everything messed up you have to be more careful next time. However, there is purposes for things. Everything can have the purposes of them too.
07:30:00 <pikhq_> Well, yeah, we're outpacing evolution by several orders of magnitude.
07:30:20 <itidus20> the sea has done a good job of protecting itself by means of its fierce waves
07:30:38 <itidus20> whatever gets built on the sea, gets crushed
07:31:22 <pikhq_> *Someone* doesn't know about oil rigs...
07:32:08 <pikhq_> Lord Oil demands we build on the ocean. Cost is little object.
07:34:38 <coppro> I kind of feel bad for my hypothetical children
07:35:20 <lambdabot> forall a. (Fractional a) => a -> a -> a
07:36:10 <zzo38> I do not want to have any children please.
07:37:02 <zzo38> The Bible is warning you about all of these things can you see that? And yet, many things happen too badly. Pay attention to the warning! We are messing up everything too much! Be more careful next time please!
07:37:22 <zzo38> Some say the message of the Bible is that of love. I say it is that of warning.
07:39:00 <itidus20> i noticed for example that sea creatures don't build things in the ocean
07:39:15 <itidus20> surely they could evolve such capacities if it were a good thing
07:39:46 <zzo38> I think even some Christians have never read the Bible.
07:39:47 <Sgeo_> I parially gfixed some of my Chicken Scheme issues
07:40:05 <Sgeo_> But still, some eggs are platform-depenent, apparently
07:41:00 <itidus20> speaking of which.. uh.. spiders build webs.. but i guess its far too much of an energy waste to construct anything meaningful in that way
07:41:32 <itidus20> spiders build webs.. a plant is a web in some cases
07:42:55 <pikhq_> zzo38: I'd say the "message" of the Bible is that YHWH is evil.
07:49:24 <zzo38> pikhq_: Well, say what you want to. I suppose you could instead say the message is that it is complete nonsense, if you wanted to.
07:50:11 <zzo38> The Skeptics Annotated Bible has the entire KJV text (but does not include apocrypha) and many cross-references and external references and other notes.
07:53:20 <zzo38> Is the jawbone of an ass a good weapon?
07:54:26 <elliott> comex_: Why did you try and exile coppro again
07:54:26 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
07:54:58 <itidus20> zzo38: the basic trouble I have is to have a character who is not me. I am not good at all at making that detachment
07:55:35 <zzo38> itidus20: I am somewhat good at it, but much, I think. I am not sure.
07:55:39 <itidus20> they always inherit my insecurities unless like i am playing a single player game when noone is watching
07:56:14 <itidus20> i sorta know why... but doing something about it is like debugging my psyche
07:57:07 <zzo38> Of course I improve on that and other things related to the game, when playing the game multiple times
07:57:52 <itidus20> as a wannabe author its a problem
07:58:13 <itidus20> i can't write a character who doesn't secretly inherit all my neuroses
07:58:49 <itidus20> but please note that in saying this I am expressing my plan to change it.
07:59:11 <zzo38> OK, I understand a bit. Have you tried writing any such things?
07:59:18 <zzo38> Have you improved at all?
07:59:33 <itidus20> My characters tend to not have much social interaction.
08:00:02 <itidus20> I sort of get into this problem of trying to analyze every character in a scene and how they would act
08:00:21 <zzo38> Yes it can be difficult.
08:00:48 <itidus20> Maybe its better to be like Mezzacotta and just define each character and throw them into situations
08:00:53 <Sgeo_> Would saying "Or I might just look at Racket" be offensive in #chicken ?
08:01:27 <elliott> Sgeo_: UR SO RUDE IM SUICIDE
08:01:30 <zzo38> Read my recordings, see if they would interest you or whatever, criticize it a lot if you want to, or whatever
08:01:48 <zzo38> Source file: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/recording/level20.tex Output file: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/recording/level20.dvi
08:02:06 <itidus20> like the geocities which never died
08:02:12 <itidus20> i didn't know it still existed
08:02:34 <itidus20> cjb had that subculture thing about it
08:02:34 <zzo38> I am using the Dynamic DNS service from them
08:03:17 <itidus20> i mean back in the old days you know.. it was all about html 4 pages and webrings..
08:04:15 <zzo38> Yes, but I use the dynamic DNS so that I can run multiple protocols and have my own control over the servers and stuff like that. I don't use webrings, much of my files are not HTML at all, and so on. It is different from most.
08:04:19 <itidus20> maybe the world hasn't changed, and it's just me
08:04:30 <itidus20> my point is noone uses webrings etc anymore
08:04:49 <zzo38> You can see it sometimes used.
08:04:49 <itidus20> blogs are fucking ugly... facebooks are ugly.. myspaces are ugly..
08:05:05 <itidus20> theres no attempt anymore to actually create webpages
08:05:35 <itidus20> its all php and mysql and apache
08:05:58 <itidus20> i dont for the life of me understand why so many webpages need databases :D
08:06:41 <itidus20> i guess... i guess.. the web has become an application platform
08:06:53 <itidus20> i didn't know html4 was an application platform..
08:07:01 <itidus20> i bet tim berners lee never knew either
08:07:15 <itidus20> i guess the "internet" --- ok im ranting in monologue
08:07:18 <zzo38> It shouldn't be. I avoid using it as an application platform
08:08:00 <itidus20> email is good yeah.. forums yeah..
08:08:12 <itidus20> flashgames.. sure.. youtube.. sur
08:08:54 <zzo38> I know and I generally try to avoid that kind of stuff instead.
08:09:15 <zzo38> I have not only HTTP server, but also a gopher server and IRC server in my computer
08:10:21 <itidus20> i guess i believe ranting is the most honest form of communication.
08:10:23 <zzo38> And generally programs I write using C or CWEB or whatever, they can be downloaded and run or compiled on your computer, use them local use
08:10:39 <pikhq_> HTTP/HTML/Javascript/PHP is such a *stupid* stack for an application platform, too.
08:11:05 <pikhq_> I mean, jeeze, the only stack I can think of that'd be worse is, like, X over WAN.
08:11:21 <itidus20> my rants are full of shit, but at the time they have an honest energy
08:11:34 <itidus20> i just rattle off one fallacy after another
08:11:36 <Sgeo_> pikhq_, is there a problem with the HTTP part?
08:11:54 <zzo38> Better way depends on what it is. In some cases, SSH would be better, in other cases, just a local program is OK.
08:12:27 <pikhq_> Sgeo_: Yes, HTTP is a flawed protocol.
08:12:30 <itidus20> richard stallman needs to get on this though.
08:12:43 <zzo38> itidus20: No he doesn't.
08:12:51 <Sgeo_> Well, I heard an anti-Racket rant
08:13:12 <Sgeo_> "Done EmacsW32 base setup. Sleeping 20 seconds so you may read this ..."
08:13:15 <zzo38> Application platform should be the one for the use, such as C program compiled locally and such
08:13:22 <pikhq_> Sgeo_: It contains many complexities that literally nobody uses, for instance.
08:13:50 <pikhq_> In fact, its basic design is completely contrary to the use it gets put to.
08:13:51 <zzo38> For banking, SSH would be a good way to do it, I think.
08:13:55 <pikhq_> It is a wiki protocol.
08:14:06 <itidus20> a html document has evolved into an application platform space.
08:15:10 <pikhq_> The basic operations of HTTP are get, put, delete, and patch.
08:15:17 <itidus20> its so absurd.. mr burners lee wouldn't have imagined it in 1million years
08:15:35 <itidus20> but it works.. i must admit in contradiction to my rant
08:16:13 <zzo38> pikhq_: Yes maybe it means it should actually be used that way instead. With, get, put, delete, and patch.
08:16:37 <elliott> tbl is a cool dude, if solid in his opinions
08:16:42 <elliott> dunno how he has time to hang about on irc but
08:17:01 <pikhq_> As it is, it is basically used as either a generic data transport or a generic file host.
08:17:23 <Sgeo_> pikhq_, would be fun if there were wikis that used those features
08:17:28 <itidus20> the hyperlink is ok.. but sometimes people just jump to the URL bar
08:17:32 <Sgeo_> Although modern web browsers don't really.. blah
08:17:34 <pikhq_> It is literally nothing more than a pointless layer for use as a generic data transport, and poorly suited for file hosting.
08:18:04 <pikhq_> So effing much impedence mismatch.
08:18:05 <itidus20> for instance.. to travel from bing.com to google.com i type a g in the url bar
08:18:09 <zzo38> pikhq_: Yes, that would be what FTP and gopher protocols are for, I think.
08:18:20 <pikhq_> zzo38: FTP also has a lot of stupidities.
08:18:38 <itidus20> search engines thrive on hypertext though...
08:18:42 <pikhq_> It requires *several* round-trips just to get a single file.
08:18:46 <coppro> it should be avoided wherever possible
08:18:49 <pikhq_> Also, it is so insanely stateful.
08:18:59 <zzo38> It may be dumb. But still it is what FTP was designed for, it is for file transfer.
08:19:12 <pikhq_> Yes, there is at least less impedence mismatch there.
08:19:27 <zzo38> There are other protocols. Including, Plan 9 Protocol, and SSH, and so on.
08:19:27 <coppro> use SFTP at least if you're going to use stupid
08:19:30 <itidus20> in my local LAN at home my brother FTPs me files when we have trouble using windows network neighborhoood
08:19:54 <coppro> pikhq_: I would gladly s/PHP/Python/g in any application stack ever
08:20:02 <fizzie> I was knew a printer who had an FTP server. You could upload a postscript file, and it'd print it.
08:20:28 <elliott> fizzie: You've said that, like, exact line before
08:20:35 <elliott> coppro: I would gladly s/Python//g in everything ever
08:20:41 <pikhq_> coppro: Honestly, I think even C programs for CGI would be an improvement.
08:20:45 <fizzie> elliott: I think I typed it a bit differently, but yes, I think I've mentioned.
08:20:52 <Sgeo_> That's sad, I can't even figure out how to toggle an option in emacs
08:21:01 <coppro> elliott: How much to you know about the type formalisms in Haskell
08:21:05 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes I have heard of that too. However I would prefer one that used Plan 9 Protocol instead of FTP, and DVI instead of PostScript. And arrange in directories for the various jobs, and status, and fonts, and so on.
08:21:07 <elliott> pikhq_: That seems excessive; PHP doesn't have rampant memory corruption
08:21:17 <elliott> coppro: Depends what you mean by "type formalism"
08:21:37 <coppro> elliott: The formal notions of Haskell's type system, and things like it's soundness and other useful properties
08:21:58 <elliott> It's not "sound"; undefined :: a
08:22:03 <coppro> wait I could just go talk to that guy at Google who studied at Glasgow.
08:22:08 <elliott> Depends what you mean by sound :-P
08:22:09 <pikhq_> elliott: PHP has rampant injection attacks, though.
08:22:23 <elliott> Well, it's sound in some senses and not in others
08:22:43 <zzo38> There should be Plan 9 Protocol over USB.
08:22:46 <elliott> A Coq developer certainly wouldn't think much of Haskell's type system
08:22:46 <itidus20> sorry guys.. i tend to join channels where i am the least skilled in a field.. and go offtopic a lot to compensate.
08:22:56 <elliott> Through the Curry-Howard lens, it is inconsistent
08:23:03 <itidus20> but i see it is coming back around to haskell. nice
08:23:06 <pikhq_> itidus20: Is okay, we just go off topic a lot. :P
08:23:32 <coppro> elliott: Sound means that you don't prove falsehoods
08:24:00 <coppro> elliott: bottom is not a falshood
08:24:10 <elliott> Do you even know what the Curry-Howard isomorphism is
08:24:20 <elliott> Because Void is a falsehood, forall a b. a -> b is a falsehood
08:24:22 <elliott> And those values are proofs
08:24:38 <elliott> Go type "Axiom undefined : forall a, a." into Coq and tell me it's still sound
08:25:27 <coppro> elliott: I know what the Curry-Howard isomorphism is.
08:25:36 <elliott> coppro: "Of course Haskell's type system is unsound!" --Conor McBride
08:25:36 <pikhq_> coppro: These are type-level falsehoods.
08:25:38 <coppro> elliott: And I'm not talking about it
08:26:10 <elliott> coppro: You can at least admit the term "sound" is ambiguous
08:26:26 <elliott> Conor McBride is rather an expert :p
08:26:49 <elliott> coppro: What you probably refer to is type safety
08:27:07 <elliott> Well, nice way to respond to someone who points out that experts disagree with your terminology
08:27:14 <elliott> Go ask Mr. Glasgow I guess
08:27:19 <coppro> the type inference system
08:28:35 <pikhq_> Uh, that's Hindley-Milner you're referring to, right?
08:28:57 <elliott> But yeah, your questions are very vague.
08:29:10 <pikhq_> Well, yeah, it's not *quite* straight Hindley-Milner, especially in GHC instead of Report.
08:30:00 <elliott> What are the "formal notions" of Haskell's type system, anyway
08:30:07 <pikhq_> Contrary to popular belief, Haskell is *not* a very formal language.
08:32:13 <coppro> pikhq_: on a relative scale, no
08:32:34 <coppro> but I'm wondering if anyone is familiar with this stuff because I'm not really in a paper-chugging mood
08:32:57 <elliott> You have yet to define "this stuff" in any sort of answerable form
08:33:55 <coppro> elliott: if you can't answer the question, then the answer is "not enough"
08:34:12 <coppro> if you simply won't because you're a prick, then fuck off
08:34:15 <pikhq_> coppro: What can you tell me about the formalisms in C?
08:34:27 <elliott> coppro: You have not asked a question.
08:34:32 <pikhq_> The above question is about as specific. :)
08:34:41 <elliott> coppro: You have, however, acted like an asshole who isn't really interested in hearing answer from me, so...?
08:35:36 <pikhq_> coppro: Oh, right, there's actually things that could be called formalisms in the C spec.
08:35:45 <pikhq_> Mmm, C abstract machine...
08:36:20 <elliott> coppro: In future, if you're going to refuse to ask a specific question, ignore me when I point out that your terminology is very vague, and then tell me to either shut up or fuck off, I'd appreciate it if you didn't fucking ping me in the first place.
08:39:08 <coppro> pikhq_: Have you ever read the definition of restrict
08:39:17 <coppro> elliott: The terminology was deliberately vauge
08:39:45 <elliott> coppro: Then I ask you to tell me about programming, and if you ask for specificity, I'm going to assume you know nothing of the subject
08:40:43 <coppro> also fuck Hindley-Milner
08:40:48 <pikhq_> coppro: Still, probably a bit surprising to people who aren't aware of what's in the C spec.
08:40:50 <coppro> the paper goes on to define something for one thing
08:40:52 <coppro> and use it for another
08:41:06 <coppro> leaving me completely befuddled as to what is actually meant
08:41:29 <pikhq_> (which is *incredibly* different from what you'd think if you just saw what compilers do to C)
08:43:12 <pikhq_> Admittedly, that's in part because there's an impedence mismatch between C and common CPUs.
08:54:00 <Sgeo_> I seem to be incapable of remembering the name "Geiser"
08:54:46 <Sgeo_> "If Geiser came with any guarantees, youd break all of them by not using GNU Emacs 23.2"
08:54:53 <Sgeo_> And I'm using 23.1 GRAH
09:05:57 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
09:29:09 <Sgeo_> I suppose there's no nice in-emacs way to do that
09:29:37 <Sgeo_> Unless you said "Updoot" not to be funny, but because there's a tool called Updoot
09:29:51 <Sgeo_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VFTTGUjskc
09:30:21 <Sgeo_> (Note: I haven't watched the video)
09:30:28 <Sgeo_> (Or even seen the description until now)
09:31:09 <elliott> Sgeo_: You fail at basic reading
09:31:33 <elliott> I'm not talking about Emacs, for instance
09:31:38 -!- JamezQ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
09:32:37 <Sgeo_> THE SUSPENSE IS KILLING ME
09:42:37 -!- azaq23 has left.
09:45:24 -!- azaq23 has joined.
09:48:26 -!- chickenzilla has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
09:54:23 -!- pumpkin has joined.
09:57:52 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
10:25:30 -!- NihilistDandy has joined.
10:39:10 -!- FireFly has joined.
10:52:40 <elliott> I should ban cybermutiny from /r/mspaint just to see how e reacts.
10:58:44 <cheater_> how on EARTH can i have files with dynamic content in linux????
10:58:58 <cheater_> the inability to do this is bewildering.
11:03:13 -!- NihilistDandy has quit (Quit: sleeping).
11:12:52 <fizzie> FUSE is the ugly solution.
11:34:00 <Sgeo_> What do those... pipe file thingies count as?
11:41:48 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
11:41:48 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Changing host).
11:41:48 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
11:53:19 -!- GuestIceKovu has joined.
11:55:19 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
12:03:51 <fizzie> They count as named pipes.
12:04:01 <fizzie> Can't really use them as files in all contextsies though.
12:04:20 <fizzie> Also difficult if you have many readers at the same time.
12:06:24 <fizzie> Localhost-loopbacked NBD device is another alternative, but tends to require rootish stuff.
12:07:31 <fizzie> I believe you can also quasi-easily offer "dynamic files" via GVFS and things like that, but they're not really real files then.
12:10:57 <elliott> fizzie: gvfs has a fuse mapper in ~/.gvfs
12:13:25 -!- pumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
12:14:34 -!- CakeProphet has quit (*.net *.split).
12:15:56 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
12:18:00 <fizzie> Yes, I've noticed it does something like that when I gvfs-mount remote shares.
12:19:28 -!- copumpkin has joined.
12:48:13 -!- itidus20 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
12:48:33 -!- itidus20 has joined.
12:50:36 -!- GuestIceKovu has changed nick to Slereah.
13:07:05 -!- itidus20 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
13:07:32 -!- itidus20 has joined.
13:41:52 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
13:57:05 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude.
14:16:00 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
14:28:15 <Sgeo_> Is it just me, or is Monte Carlo a fancy name for something that really isn't that fancy?
14:28:53 <quintopia> it's a city famous for its casinos and games of chance...
14:29:09 <Sgeo_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Carlo_simulation
14:29:38 <quintopia> hence, any method involving a roulette wheel simulation in it somewhere is called monte carlo
14:32:09 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
14:45:58 -!- copumpkin has joined.
15:49:11 -!- monqy has joined.
16:06:42 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
16:16:56 <lambdabot> Did you mean: == (IORef a) /count=20
16:17:02 <elliott> ?hoogle (==) :: IORef a -> IORef a -> Bool
16:17:02 <lambdabot> Prelude (==) :: Eq a => a -> a -> Bool
16:17:02 <lambdabot> Data.Eq (==) :: Eq a => a -> a -> Bool
16:31:51 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
16:45:28 <tswett> elliott: are you looking for an instance Eq (IORef a)?
16:45:31 -!- aloril has joined.
16:45:40 -!- TeruFSX has joined.
16:46:16 <elliott> tswett: Found, ages ago; conversation in private channel :-P
16:46:59 <tswett> fungot: it's a very good idea.
16:46:59 <fungot> tswett: last argument must be a cub scout!! have you made your money-drop today??
16:49:07 <elliott> `addquote <fungot> tswett: last argument must be a cub scout!! have you made your money-drop today??
16:49:07 <fungot> elliott: and .txt doesn't have links either signed or unsigned... eh, don't worry
16:49:11 <HackEgo> 544) <fungot> tswett: last argument must be a cub scout!! have you made your money-drop today??
16:49:19 <fungot> Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical)
16:49:30 <tswett> fungot: well, of could I would never do that.
16:49:31 <fungot> tswett: 3) a player resigns from an office has whatever duties, then 3 extra votes on
16:49:40 <tswett> fungot: please continue that thought.
16:49:40 <fungot> tswett: ( b) any entities disqualified by the assessor that e grants eir poa to the
16:49:55 <tswett> fungot: yes, I like where this is going. Go on.
16:49:56 <fungot> tswett: d) any additional information in the new
16:50:06 <tswett> fungot: that should just about do it. One more.
16:50:06 <fungot> tswett: judgement ( cfj),
16:50:51 <tswett> A player resigns from an office has whatever duties, then 3 extra votes on any entities disqualified by the Assessor that e grants eir POA to any additional information in the new judgement.
17:03:34 -!- zzo38 has joined.
17:11:27 -!- derrik has joined.
17:21:05 -!- itidus20 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
17:24:15 -!- itidus20 has joined.
17:25:44 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
17:28:05 <quintopia> what is the easiest way to convert html to pdf?
17:29:21 <derrik> you're out of luck then
17:30:31 <zzo38> Use a printer driver output PDF, I guess.
17:31:00 <derrik> print to pdf.. that also uses mouse, i.e. too easy
17:31:27 <zzo38> You can use keyboard too, it doesn't require mouse
17:31:45 <derrik> same with the button actually
17:32:04 <derrik> button in e.g. openoffice
17:32:58 <cheater_> i'm learning italian and this bash/awk script is about italian food. should i try and translate the source code to italian?
17:33:00 <elliott> quintopia: prince xml is high quality iirc
17:33:19 <elliott> and free for non-commercial IIRC
17:33:23 <zzo38> However, I don't think PDF is a good format, it is full of dumb things
17:33:28 <elliott> and written in Mercury, a functional Prolog derivative :-)
17:33:37 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:34:57 <quintopia> i don't have a choice about the format. it'ss that or .doc :|
17:35:47 <zzo38> Well, then use PDF, since DOC (Microsoft Word, I guess) has as many dumb things but in addition might not produce the same result on all computer
17:37:02 <derrik> quintopia: i have "cutepdf writer" installed.. it prints to pdf
17:38:15 -!- derrik has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:38:26 <quintopia> nvm i found the command to convince vimperator to do it
17:38:57 -!- derrik has joined.
17:38:58 <elliott> quintopia: gross, princexml will give nicer output :{
17:40:07 <derrik> i'm also on a train.. it stops every other minute
17:40:19 <zzo38> Does there exist such things sa PDF to HTML, PDF to picture format, PDF to DVI, etc.?
17:45:05 <derrik> http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/neutronics/todd/nuc.bomb.html
17:48:39 <elliott> lol at the DON'T TRY AND BUILD AN ATOMIC BOMB warning
18:02:02 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
18:04:33 -!- derrik has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
18:13:03 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
18:14:35 -!- cheater_ has joined.
18:33:38 -!- derrik has joined.
18:38:42 -!- Nisstyre has joined.
18:46:36 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:54:57 -!- JamezQ has joined.
18:58:42 -!- JamezQ has quit (Client Quit).
19:09:45 <oerjan> <elliott> fizzie: You've said that, like, exact line before
19:09:54 <oerjan> including the misspelling? :D
19:23:13 <oerjan> <elliott> I should ban cybermutiny from /r/mspaint just to see how e reacts.
19:23:23 <oerjan> elliott's a mod somewhere? O_O
19:23:45 <elliott> And I have taken approximately three moderator actions in my entire tenure
19:24:23 <elliott> But yeah, this cybermutiny guy makes literally almost every post in there and they're mostly to his site thing which is a collection of seemingly inscrutable MS Paint art made by people who were clearly high at the time :-P
19:24:33 <elliott> I don't mind, but it would be amusing if this was, like, his main source of revenue.
19:24:58 <oerjan> oh it's about _actual_ mspaint, not those adventures...
19:25:13 <elliott> that's /r/homestuck, which recently passed /r/mspaint's subscriber count :-(
19:25:35 <elliott> (but /r/homestuck actually sometimes pays off on a subscription, so...)
19:25:47 <elliott> oerjan: mind you, /r/mspaint has gotten at least _two_ Homestuck-related submissions in two months
19:26:02 <elliott> both from the cybermutiny guy who doesn't _appear_ to know what they're actually about :D
19:26:24 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/mspaint/comments/hdyg7/blue_guy/c1uo7ll
19:31:35 <oerjan> <Sgeo_> Is it just me, or is Monte Carlo a fancy name for something that really isn't that fancy?
19:31:48 <oerjan> istr it's in contrast to Las Vegas simulation
19:31:59 <oerjan> i don't quite recall what each is, though :P
19:33:32 <oerjan> <tswett> elliott: are you looking for an instance Eq (IORef a)?
19:33:41 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Don't Quit).
19:33:52 <oerjan> which reminds me that haddock really should provide source links for orphan instances
19:34:20 <oerjan> or all instances really, so you don't have to check two places
19:42:47 * oerjan finds today's mezzacotta comic strangely amusing
19:43:48 -!- pumpkin has joined.
19:44:22 <oerjan> why do we allow vegetables in here anyway
19:46:04 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 263 seconds).
19:48:28 <fizzie> Wouldn't it be discrimination not to?
19:48:42 <olsner> oerjan: are you sure pumpkin is a vegetable rather than e.g. a fruit or a berry or something?
19:48:53 <oerjan> fizzie: but what if he's an enemy plant?
19:49:33 -!- monqy has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
19:49:33 <fizzie> Freenode channel guidelines: "Look for the best in people. If you assume people have no self-control, they'll confirm your belief."
19:49:58 <oerjan> olsner: hm better check wikipedia
19:50:04 -!- monqy has joined.
19:50:29 -!- pumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin.
19:50:30 <fizzie> "The noun vegetable usually means an edible plant or part of a plant other than a sweet fruit or seed. -- However, the word is not scientific, and its meaning is largely based on culinary and cultural tradition."
19:50:35 <fizzie> So it can be anything you want it to be.
19:50:44 <fizzie> Even YOU could be a vegetable. (\forall YOU.)
19:51:17 <oerjan> that ancient tradition of vegetarian cannibalism
19:53:22 <oerjan> "In culinary terms, both summer and winter squashes are generally considered as vegetables, even though pumpkin may be used for sweet dishes.
19:56:24 <fizzie> WordNet "hypernyms of pumpkin":
19:56:26 <fizzie> => vegetable, veggie, veg
19:56:26 <fizzie> => produce, green goods, green groceries, garden truck
19:56:39 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:57:08 <fizzie> Nouns quite often tend to end up as "entity", I think.
19:59:32 <fizzie> WordNet can also comprehensively list everything that is a vegetable; wn vegetable -treen => http://p.zem.fi/avpv
20:00:20 <fizzie> Oh, what a losing piece of code:
20:00:22 <fizzie> Hyponyms of noun entity
20:00:22 <fizzie> Search too large. Narrow search and try again...
20:00:52 <fizzie> The entirety of entity is entirely too enormous.
20:01:16 <fizzie> (The last line was not part of the error message.)
20:01:55 <oerjan> hm and you _do_ have the entire database locally?
20:03:12 <fizzie> "The maximum buffer size is determined by computer platform. If the buffer size is exceeded the following message is printed in the output buffer: "Search too large. Narrow search and try again...""
20:03:21 <fizzie> Oh, so it is the fault of the computer platform.
20:03:45 <oerjan> you just need to change to x86-inf
20:07:59 <fizzie> "If one inputs the word entity as an entry in WordNet 1.6 and try to search its full hyponyms, he will get nothing but a note of "Search too large. Narrow search and try again." provided that he does not narrow the searching by terminating it beforehand. Sure enough, if the entry is not entity but another word, say cat, the searching will probably do."
20:07:59 <fizzie> - Liu Yang, Yu Jiangsheng, Yu Shiwen. A Tree-structure Solution for the Development of ChineseNet. Institute of Computational Linguistics, Dept. of CS, Peking University. Technical Report, 2002.
20:08:07 <fizzie> I seem to have not been the only one interested in entities.
20:10:58 <oerjan> at this point i'm tempted to create an esolang named haskell.
20:11:35 <elliott> oerjan: with haskell, the job has been done for you.
20:12:47 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Java
20:13:42 <oerjan> hm surely APL isn't the first one
20:18:00 <monqy> i thought of http://esolangs.org/wiki/Java2K
20:21:25 <oerjan> yeah me to but i don't count that
20:21:36 <oerjan> otoh we have http://esolangs.org/wiki/COBOL
20:22:42 -!- augur has joined.
20:23:41 -!- itidus20 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
20:39:33 -!- derrik has quit (Quit: over and out).
20:47:28 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
20:47:28 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Changing host).
20:47:28 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
20:48:46 <oerjan> atehwa: ooh, as i'm looking through the language list for other purposes, i think no one has mentioned Paintfuck to you yet...
20:49:01 <oerjan> ...that's some major idling.
20:49:21 <oerjan> @tell atehwa You might wish to look at Paintfuck
20:49:44 <elliott> i mean, uninteresting-looking language
20:49:54 <elliott> but the tiny two-dimensional data plus storage as output...
20:51:00 <elliott> "increpare: I can parse the code beforehand to detect logical infinite loops. I think they occur as a certain pattern in the code."
20:51:06 <elliott> ah the forum paintfuck was on is v. smart
20:51:22 <elliott> "Edit: After I talked furthermore with ehird from #esoteric, it's a saner idea to leave the crash-course as is. so, as I originally said, it's a feature not a bug"
20:52:00 <elliott> oklopol's conway is awesome
20:53:13 <elliott> 00:36:30: <nooga> i'm testing Haiku
20:53:14 <elliott> 00:36:54: <nooga> and it appears that it is a major shit
20:53:14 <elliott> 00:39:07: <oerjan> 5+7+5, not 5+11, nooga
20:53:14 <elliott> can i add quotes from three years ago...
20:57:09 <oerjan> i for one welcome our new log-quoting overlords
20:57:37 <elliott> `addquote [2008] <nooga> i'm testing Haiku <nooga> and it appears that it is a major shit <oerjan> 5+7+5, not 5+11, nooga
20:57:39 <HackEgo> 545) [2008] <nooga> i'm testing Haiku <nooga> and it appears that it is a major shit <oerjan> 5+7+5, not 5+11, nooga
20:57:59 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
20:58:56 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:00:10 <oerjan> it's a nonexisting link from four months ago that was never filled in
21:00:36 <oerjan> the policy is clearly stated at the top of the language list (i should know because i added it)
21:04:07 -!- MDude has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:04:26 -!- MDude has joined.
21:05:20 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:08:48 <oerjan> after a previous deletion orgy, probably.
21:09:55 <oerjan> i find no more esolangs named the same as a known (to me) mainstream language. although we do have shakell.
21:10:37 <oerjan> SimonRC: WHERE DID SHAKELL GO
21:11:18 <oerjan> ANSWER OR I SHALL HAVE TO USE THE POLICY
21:11:24 -!- cheater_ has joined.
21:14:02 * oerjan finds it on web archive
21:15:44 <oerjan> "Shakell is an esoteric programming language created by SimonRC in 2005. It is mainly inspired by SADOL, but also Unlambda, Lisp and Haskell."
21:15:49 -!- elliott has set topic: I wrote the program for my Master’s Thesis (a dynamic programming problem) in Turbo Pascal, so I got good at functional programming. | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
21:18:18 <olsner> monqy: that is the actual topic, yes
21:18:30 <oerjan> ceci n'est pas un topic
21:19:17 <elliott> monqy: http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2011/07/24/get-started-functional-programming/#comment-94407
21:20:07 <elliott> "This is why if you want to make sure no one ever instantiates a class (e.g. library) you not only need to make the constructor private, but also make that constructor throw an exception. I'd recommend UnsupportedOperationException. – ArtB 4 hours ago"
21:20:18 <elliott> java is like this big party of assassins
21:20:27 <elliott> where everyone is REALLY careful not to let anyone else move a muscle out of line
21:20:42 <elliott> i mean construct objects of private classes
21:21:13 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/iz9rh/does_instanceof_void_always_return_false/c27uht9 good
21:21:44 * oerjan ponders mentioning twoducks to atehwa. i think it may be zzo38's most memorable language. it's the one _i_ remember, anyway.
21:22:08 <fizzie> But what if someone bytecode-modifies your class when loading and removes the exception?
21:22:52 <olsner> fizzie: then it is no longer your class and you have nothing to worry about
21:23:34 <fizzie> But it still has all your author-annotations and whatnot dangling from it.
21:24:18 <olsner> warranty void if exception removed by class loader, except if warranty void message removed by class loader
21:25:19 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:26:06 <oerjan> my own @ from the early 90's had this idea of black box encryption of algorithms, which would be useful here. sadly in the real world this idea seems to have hit some roadblocks.
21:26:47 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
21:26:51 <elliott> "my own @" I'm glad people can relate to @ in this way
21:27:10 <elliott> Can I convince you to try out @ when it's ready? :-P
21:28:18 <oerjan> there's obviously an idea of "perfect operating system that seems easy if you don't look too closely at how it would work" floating around in the collective geek subconscious.
21:28:35 <elliott> I never expected @ to be easy :-)
21:29:02 <elliott> it was more, reading a bit of the Loper blog at the start and then looking at TUNES and going, "oh. guess this is my computing life's work then."
21:29:42 <elliott> oerjan: and -- I'm not even sure that's true
21:29:53 <elliott> there are so many people who think Unix is some kind of perfection
21:29:55 <oerjan> should be ready just in time for the singularity. whether caused by or causing, remains to be seen.
21:30:11 <elliott> who think it's literally impossible to improve on filesystems
21:30:25 <elliott> oerjan: heh, I have to dismiss a lot of my thought trails on @ by going "wait no, that's singularity-level technology"
21:30:32 <monqy> does losethos have filesystems i forget
21:30:53 <elliott> monqy: all other OSes just have defilesystems
21:30:54 <oerjan> elliott: i had no such qualms as it was essentially a sci-fi fantasy :)
21:31:20 <elliott> oerjan: (but I question any kind of "fantasy" that has black box encrypted algorithms running on your computer!)
21:31:52 <oerjan> elliott: it also had formal verification
21:32:19 <elliott> Still. @ is pretty solidly based around the idea that I don't give a single shit about closed-source software at all and I want to make everything as open and transparent as possible :P
21:33:59 <oerjan> elliott: well the idea here was essentially to able to safely move your computations across the cloud even in the possible presence of malicious programs
21:35:00 <oerjan> (i'm not sure the "cloud" concept was invented then though)
21:35:01 <elliott> oerjan: (congrats for inventing the obvious about two decades before everyone else, and also actually thinking about the security implications)
21:35:29 <oerjan> it may have been late 90s, i'm not quite sure of the timing
21:35:32 <elliott> yeah, I'm not sure how @'s distributed computing model works... obviously I'd like it to be the same thing as the parallel programming model :)
21:36:32 <pikhq_> Strange that people think it's impossible to improve on filesystems.
21:36:44 <pikhq_> You can even improve on filesystems while retaining the concept.
21:37:25 <pikhq_> Admittedly, there's not *that* much you can do while retaining the concept of "a chunk of bytes is the only data structure", but hey.
21:38:01 -!- itidus20 has joined.
21:38:25 * elliott sometimes worries that he'll never finish @. and probably everyone else has already filed it under Feather
21:39:07 * pikhq_ has made bootstrap-linux smaller
21:39:17 <elliott> oerjan: i actually have this _drive_ to make @ happen, though :D
21:39:17 <pikhq_> I was able to remove Perl and GNU sed.
21:39:21 <elliott> not quickly, just... at all
21:39:25 <oerjan> elliott: well you'd need to be an even greater genius than i think you are :P
21:39:29 <elliott> and i can't avoid it by NIHing it further as it is The Ultimate
21:39:33 <pikhq_> Now it only has things sane people would expect!
21:39:42 <elliott> oerjan: FLATTERY GOES IN THE OTHER CHANNEL -------->
21:39:55 <pikhq_> Busybox, Binutils, GCC, Make, Linux.
21:40:09 <elliott> oerjan: Maybe I'll pull a Stanislav and declare a brick to be @
21:40:11 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
21:40:11 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Changing host).
21:40:11 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
21:40:13 <elliott> (http://www.loper-os.org/?p=405)
21:40:41 <oerjan> bricks, black boxes, what's the difference.
21:40:45 <elliott> "There are a great many other things this amazing silicon device refrains from doing!
21:40:45 <elliott> Such as, for instance… computing. And yet, it is still a Lisp system!"
21:40:53 <elliott> sometimes I wonder how Stanislav breathes without laughing
21:41:20 <elliott> Does not impose an arbitrary order of sub-expression evaluation on programmers.
21:41:31 <elliott> I guess Stanislav likes his sub-expressions to be executed in parallel
21:41:59 <oerjan> elliott: it's par for the course
21:42:16 <elliott> oerjan: btw what was that research you mentioned about automatic parallelisation... :D
21:42:34 <oerjan> i mentioned something you didn't already know?
21:42:57 <oerjan> it wasn't haskell-related?
21:43:03 <elliott> oerjan: (also you manage that whenever oklopol ropes you into discussing mathematics for at least two lines)
21:43:30 <oerjan> elliott: i meant related to parallelisation
21:43:51 <oerjan> and haskell, for that matter
21:45:59 <oerjan> hm despite lexicographic similarity, parallel list comprehensions are not it
21:46:25 <oerjan> i guess it's not in ghc directly
21:46:42 <elliott> maybe you just said there were no good leads that you knew of :)
21:48:42 <oerjan> well if it was _old_ i may simply have mentioned the realization that the overhead of fine-grained parallelism is too high for arbitrary automatic parallelization to have worked well in practice
21:49:14 <elliott> I kind of feel like that's an artefact of our CPUs :/
21:49:31 <elliott> like, you know the Connection Machine? Feynman worked on it?
21:50:04 <elliott> basically it had tens of tens of thousands of really simple processors with just a few kilobytes of ram each
21:50:17 <elliott> and they operated on like single bits
21:50:24 <elliott> I have a hard time believing incredibly-fine-grained parallelism wouldn't pay off on _that_
21:50:43 <oerjan> well but the actual overhead is in the shuffling of work to and from processors, surely.
21:51:04 <elliott> but it had optimised routers for that
21:51:11 <elliott> basically you could communicate to nearby processors instantly...
21:51:19 <oerjan> and there are inherently sequential algorithms (e.g. euclid's algorithm)
21:51:32 <elliott> I just mean for subexpressions
21:51:39 <elliott> I feel like you could dedicate a few hundred CPUs in each region to scheduling and let it go
21:51:48 <elliott> for any subexpression that triggers some naive "big" predicate
21:52:07 <elliott> but I don't think the Connection Machine ever really got made again.
21:52:13 <oerjan> i think the thing is that automatic parallelization works badly with code that isn't "obviously" parallel because it still requires intelligence to find out which parts _are_ parallelizable
21:52:46 <elliott> I have this horrible feeling that it's going to be another super-wacky problem that solves this
21:53:00 <elliott> just like functional programming solved the tangle of effects and dependencies problem
21:53:17 <elliott> (and the "lack of higher-order control structures" problem)
21:53:55 <oerjan> well the current research afaik is about solving it by making it easy for programmers to write programs in such a way that the parallelizable parts _are_ obviously indicated.
21:54:10 <oerjan> but that's not automatic
21:54:52 <olsner> paradigm/problem :D multi-paradigm languages should henceforth be multi-problem programming languages
21:54:57 <olsner> program with many problems at once
21:55:00 <elliott> olsner: mo paradigms mo problems
21:55:28 <elliott> oerjan: I think what I really have to do is continue on my path of a super-scaled-back @ as the short- and medium- and short-long- term goals.
21:55:55 <elliott> I can't just let it succumb to inertia on account of having a big unidentified blob at the centre, I have to try and tackle away at it bit by bit
21:56:42 -!- Lymee has quit (Quit: 1... 2... 3... HUGS! :D).
21:57:27 <elliott> was going to make some horribly tasteless joke about norwegians, but decided i'm a better person than that
21:57:35 <elliott> I guess this is just as bad though
21:57:47 <monqy> nice horribly tasteless joke about norwegians, there
21:57:55 <elliott> you're a horribly tasteless norwegian
21:59:08 -!- Lymee has joined.
21:59:30 <olsner> elliott: keep your jokes fnarfful
22:00:05 <olsner> or maybe that should be fnarfless, if fnarf is not taste
22:00:54 <oerjan> elliott: the other thing i might have mentioned would be http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/GHC/Data_Parallel_Haskell
22:01:18 <oerjan> but how can you not know about that
22:02:46 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:05:02 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
22:14:37 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:15:39 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
22:15:39 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Changing host).
22:15:39 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
22:21:35 -!- itidus20 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:22:35 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
22:34:55 <cheater_> i'm gonna start signing my emails "Sent from my Cray X-MP"
22:35:25 <quintopia> only if i can use "Sent from SPACE"
22:41:11 <oerjan> this message sent from a tiny dust speck in space
22:45:40 -!- quintopia has set topic: "I wrote the program for my Master’s Thesis (a dynamic programming problem) in Turbo Pascal, so I got good at functional programming." -Robert Edwin Peary, Sr. | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
22:49:22 <oerjan> turbo pascal can get you to the top of the world
22:54:21 <fizzie> Whereas regular Pascal is barely enough to get you up a moderate hill.
23:11:28 -!- TeruFSX has joined.
23:32:16 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:34:44 <Lymee> @hoogle ByteString->IO ()
23:34:44 <lambdabot> Data.ByteString putStr :: ByteString -> IO ()
23:34:44 <lambdabot> Data.ByteString putStrLn :: ByteString -> IO ()
23:34:44 <lambdabot> Data.ByteString.Char8 putStr :: ByteString -> IO ()
23:34:58 <Lymee> @src Data.ByteString putStrLn
23:35:02 <Lymee> @src Data.ByteString,putStrLn
23:35:02 <lambdabot> Source not found. It can only be attributed to human error.
23:35:05 <Lymee> @src Data.ByteString.putStrLn
23:35:05 <lambdabot> Source not found. There are some things that I just don't know.
23:35:09 <lambdabot> putStrLn s = do putStr s; putChar '\n'
23:35:13 <Lymee> @src Data.ByteString
23:40:37 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/bytestring
23:41:56 <cheater_> if i have n regexes, is it possible to compile them all into one optimized thing that will match if either one had matched?
23:43:53 <oerjan> Lymee: @src only has a small subset of sources. use hoogle or hayoo on the web. istr that hayoo searches all of hackage.
23:44:56 <oerjan> http://holumbus.fh-wedel.de/hayoo/hayoo.html#0:putStrLn
23:45:41 <oerjan> (that thing above is unlikely to be the ByteString version. although maybe they're identical.)
23:46:17 <cheater_> oerjan, are you smart with regex??
23:46:37 <oerjan> oops, hayoo's source links are broken. the package name link should still work though.
23:47:49 <oerjan> cheater_: well why not just put | between them?
23:49:18 <cheater_> what if they contain | already.. hmm yeah then it works too i guess
23:49:35 <oerjan> whether it's efficiently compiled i assume depends on the regex implementation
23:49:43 <cheater_> i wonder if postgresql regex is compatible with python regex
23:50:52 <oerjan> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/bytestring/latest/doc/html/src/Data-ByteString.html#putStrLn
23:51:02 <oerjan> putStrLn = hPutStrLn stdout
23:52:17 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Remote host closed the connection).