< 1311639491 556018 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1311639877 257078 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater_: one | per pattern plz < 1311639880 513979 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1311639967 79475 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION detects an off-by-one error :P
< 1311640007 855612 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: your mom was off-by-one. < 1311640021 370776 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you guess which one it was? < 1311640040 408503 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1311640046 56468 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH SNAP. < 1311640085 173945 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: (implying that you shouldn't have been born, or that you needed another sibling... but that one is less of a sick burn) < 1311640152 728913 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1311640154 949975 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well my parents _were_ married just about a month before i was born. draw your own conclusions. < 1311640200 271880 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't draw. < 1311640208 885627 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :figures. < 1311640284 632330 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :though my conclusion is that marriage doesn't matter very much. < 1311640292 317229 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for the legal consequences, which matter a lot. < 1311640364 143939 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, this was in 1970, a time when marriage definitely mattered. < 1311640411 846143 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would basically have been unthinkable for them to _plan_ it this way at that time. < 1311640448 711646 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"No public logging! What happens in #emacs stays in #emacs " < 1311640450 451134 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :booo1 < 1311640471 480077 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Note: The .. not actually all that funny stuff is over) < 1311640490 77273 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah. #emacs is a riot. Lots of kinky ASCII porn. < 1311640497 728198 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah if you want the world to search for your private secrets, tell them in #esoteric. < 1311640569 692817 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's weird my browser locked up but seems to not be using CPU < 1311640585 686902 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :bug. < 1311640631 186760 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :some kind of resource bottleneck/deadlock, I guess? < 1311640678 771534 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps. < 1311640713 179599 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's always a possibility that it was a ghost. Perhaps you have a haunted computer < 1311640768 636420 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it's haunted all right, i just cannot recall this particular failure mode before. < 1311640773 804012 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :if that is the case then you may have a computer capable of hypercomputation. < 1311640818 484571 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :via ghost-power.. kind of like an oracle, but spookier. < 1311641012 331197 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm, so doesn't the fact that humans are reasonably effective at solving the halting problem for a given language suggest that it's impossible to replicate human intelligence via Turing-complete computation? < 1311641074 674260 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I suppose since we're not perfect at it, and we can't solve it for languages that are unknown to us.. < 1311641087 34785 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, because we are not reasonably effective at it. < 1311641130 715738 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.32 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1311641184 488618 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1311641188 996854 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is easy to construct problems we cannot solve. things like "loop through even numbers > 2 until you find one which is not the sum of two primes" just more varied. < 1311641321 456597 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :now let's see if reloading previous browser session locks it up again. < 1311641384 500701 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :evidence so far is ... hm it moved. < 1311641436 683147 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah < 1311641466 676891 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it's locked up _and_ using CPU. :( < 1311641608 455309 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah it was a huge pdf file < 1311642328 553324 :augur!~augur@208.58.6.161 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311642710 300765 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1311642738 225477 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ping < 1311642800 89412 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :6uod < 1311642996 626348 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :classy < 1311644618 441235 :variable!~thing@unaffiliated/variable QUIT :Quit: I found 1 in /dev/zero < 1311644632 474549 :MDude!~fyrc@c-174-55-44-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1311644654 579002 :MDude!~fyrc@c-174-55-44-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1311644937 648511 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1311645488 538815 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229161150.adsl.alicedsl.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1311645719 736172 :MDude!~fyrc@c-174-55-44-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1311645741 518608 :MDude!~fyrc@c-174-55-44-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1311646273 736419 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229129212.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1311647227 699078 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1311647362 530499 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311647972 722141 :Nisstyre!~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1311648425 901984 :TeruFSX!~quassel@pool-214-156.res.carleton.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1311648628 345516 :jcp!alex@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 QUIT :Quit: No Ping reply in 120 seconds. < 1311648628 907968 :javawizard!alex@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 NICK :jcp < 1311648663 723420 :jcp|other!~alex@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311648799 326393 :Nisstyre!~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info JOIN :#esoteric < 1311648863 777662 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229129212.adsl.alicedsl.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1311649103 677651 :TeruFSX!~quassel@pool-214-156.res.carleton.edu QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1311649630 168886 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1311649688 797825 :clog!~nef@bespin.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1311649714 699877 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no, we have been unclogged! < 1311650034 485708 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod NICK :draino < 1311650044 693390 :draino!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION grins
< 1311650051 699787 :Nisstyre!~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info NICK :Rainbow_Dash < 1311650064 63795 :draino!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod NICK :copumpkin < 1311650068 934780 :Rainbow_Dash!~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info NICK :Nisstyre < 1311650080 978661 :azaq231!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311650165 526108 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1311650203 652593 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1311650348 199800 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone mentioned that my optimization/compression problem was related to LZW. I don't know for sure. < 1311650484 46840 :TeruFSX!~quassel@pool-214-156.res.carleton.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1311651460 982192 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do any other literate programs exist that can help with my problem? < 1311651802 351360 :MDude!~fyrc@c-174-55-44-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net NICK :MSleep < 1311653124 531138 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can someone please shed some light on http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/izm57/what_do_you_consider_to_be_the_greatest_unsolved/c27z4vt?context=3 ? < 1311653222 792770 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :"selectable as an axiom, or counter-axiom" _implies_ unprovable. < 1311653266 776834 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and true & false applies to _models_, not axiomatic theories. < 1311653298 162896 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :again, by godel's completeness theorem, if something is unprovable, then it is false in some model. < 1311653327 116431 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :provable <=> true in all models < 1311653364 148843 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(models of the given axioms) < 1311653367 644658 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like I understand less now < 1311653408 102571 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Yes, that must be an illusion, generated by an unperceived lack of understanding, yada yada) < 1311653412 349263 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, (1) the continuum hypothesis _is_ independent. this means that it is (2) not provable, _and_ (3) not disprovable. < 1311653443 539626 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(2) again is equivalent to it being false in some model of the rest of set theory < 1311653458 180900 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(3) then is equivalent to it being false in some model etc. < 1311653497 546691 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :er wat < 1311653508 318045 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*(3) then is equivalent to it being _true_ in some model etc. < 1311653523 92018 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what' are "true but unprovable" statements for a system of axioms? < 1311653530 320086 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or does that not apply to CH? < 1311653571 255063 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no such thing, truth only applies _inside_ a model of the axioms, unless it holds for _all_ models, in which case its provable. < 1311653633 124860 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :models here technically mean set theoretic models, which may be a little circular for this particular question < 1311653650 192982 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you post some of this on reddit? < 1311653664 272499 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i still have no account < 1311653730 340958 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hm or are you referring to that "this assumption is widely believed to be true." < 1311653768 86280 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the only instance of "true" in what you responded to < 1311653811 169969 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that refers to a different kind of truth than the truth of the continuum hypothesis < 1311653868 181544 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it refers to whether ZF is consistent, which is believed to be true presumably because it's intuitive and no one has managed to construct an inconsistency < 1311653948 580417 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, that's not what I was referring to < 1311653991 879727 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, this means that the consistency of ZF is itself believed to be a true but unprovable statement. < 1311654090 226882 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(we know that _if_ it is true then it is unprovable, by godel's _in_completeness theorems) < 1311654107 888715 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*gödel < 1311654115 547121 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-246-220.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Much like scientific theories, one can only disprove the consistency of an axiomatic system. < 1311654167 183010 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: well unless you prove it in a stronger system. < 1311654186 177654 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-246-220.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. Yes. < 1311654206 945667 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-246-220.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though that leaves it still in doubt, because the stronger system itself could be inconsistent. :) < 1311654260 508488 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i'm not entirely sure if there are some systems weaker than peano arithmetic (weak enough not to allow godel's proof) but still expressive enough to talk about their own consistency, and then maybe prove it. < 1311654274 171361 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i cannot recall hearing of any examples < 1311654371 409008 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :since "expressive enough to talk about their own consistency" is _approximately_ what you seem to need to get godel's proof in the first place < 1311654571 828850 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a kind of "intended model of natural numbers" which people end up referring to when speaking about the latter kind of truth. < 1311654612 876896 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a model no one can know what is, since it has no complete axiomatization. < 1311655530 285336 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1311655710 687583 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-246-220.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1311656546 658061 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1311658299 178127 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh nerdgasm http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2011/07/were_going_to_see_a_black_hole.php < 1311658368 91678 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(at the end) < 1311658495 993792 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although you need the rest to understand _why_ it's so cool < 1311658497 543203 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1311659444 354425 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why only radio waves? < 1311659455 387074 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's special about radio waves that that technique works so well? < 1311659503 809749 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1311659575 438673 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps it's because their frequency is so low that ordinary circuitry can handle them... < 1311659631 805151 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was a Star Trek fan fic in some anthrology that had some sattelite that moved around the galaxy < 1311659689 107864 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/What_Went_Through_Data%27s_Mind_0.68_Seconds_Before_the_Satellite_Hit < 1311659752 28437 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems that the limiting factor on that technique is data storage and/or bandwidth. < 1311659784 190569 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And radio frequencies are just about pushing the upper limit on that. < 1311659846 840786 :TeruFSX!~quassel@pool-214-156.res.carleton.edu QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1311659855 949784 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah there had to be something in the comments to make it less awesome :( < 1311659917 674164 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hm? < 1311659951 34669 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :george monser calculates that the event horizon will only occupy a couple of pixels... < 1311660066 765709 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :By "a couple", you mean "1 or 2" < 1311660068 437573 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow :/ < 1311660908 526064 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a good summary of them reasons why it works for radio in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aperture_synthesis < 1311660914 596846 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Aperture synthesis is possible only if both the amplitude and the phase of the incoming signal is measured by each telescope. For radio frequencies, this is possible by electronics, while for optical lights, the elecromagnetic field cannot be measured directly and correlated in software, but must be propagated by sensitive optics and interfered optically. < 1311660920 989462 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Accurate optical delay and atmospheric wavefront aberration correction is required, a very demanding technology which became possible only in the 1990s. This is why imaging with aperture synthesis has been used successfully in radio astronomy since the 1950s and in optical/infrared astronomy only since the 2000 decade." < 1311660955 133435 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The more obvious article ("astronomical interferometer") is far less concise. < 1311661296 595441 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: So, magic. < 1311661526 152675 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :smangic (official term from comments :P) < 1311661725 455138 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the reddit comments, that is) < 1311662486 794531 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1311662503 846118 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1311663044 858258 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311663572 260674 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1311663634 38643 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311663810 192643 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: hello < 1311666098 627951 :Nisstyre!~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1311666184 2085 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gzj1OF7d9m4 It's somewhat amusing seeing people enter a Walmart for the first time. < 1311666211 659067 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I've ever been to a Walmart < 1311666227 799225 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they don't exist under that name in the UK, and the supermarkets owned by them probably don't operate much like their US equivalents < 1311666252 864731 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can purchase just about everything in a Walmart. < 1311666270 571617 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I can tell I was tired last night < 1311666274 956087 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I wrote the following line of code: if ((htole32(rv) & 0xffff) == 0x80cd) < 1311666278 555025 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shy of, like, a car, or lumber, or something... < 1311666301 367268 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(rv is a long that has been read from a process's text segment) < 1311666321 522294 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can buy firewood in petrol stations, in the UK < 1311666333 867542 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not entirely sure why it's stocked there, it just sort-of became traditional < 1311666343 276448 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can't get it anywhere else, because everyone knows you go to petrol stations to get it < 1311666353 830231 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose it makes sense to have one sort of shop for selling every type of fuel < 1311666364 864871 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That actually makes rather a lot of sense. < 1311666400 182434 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except that here in America, we believe in having one sort of shop for selling every type of thing. < 1311666424 615965 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is that you can't easily fit those onto street corners < 1311666447 528826 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the UK, the trend recently has been to have small supermarkets, that sell just things that people would buy frequently, fitting into relatively small areas < 1311666454 504266 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although they're big-name supermarkets rather than corner shops < 1311666484 435513 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a non-issue when your urban design is based around the idea of having a 50 acre parking lot in front of a 40 acre store. < 1311666508 510346 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then, umm, you'd need a car just to drive to the supermarket < 1311666512 677259 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1311666537 569485 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guess what auto ownership rates are like? < 1311666552 545800 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there's a small supermarket within a minute's walk at all the places I tend to be (work, home, etc) < 1311666569 78994 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, this reminds me, I only have two days left on my bus pass < 1311666578 298708 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I buy it for several months at a time) < 1311666596 301397 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Freakishly*, I happen to be about a mile away from a supermarket. < 1311666626 582497 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is an exceptionally short distance for anything to be. < 1311666673 744547 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, indeed < 1311666685 845605 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose that the UK has a huge population density compared to most places in the word < 1311666687 530894 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*world < 1311666698 174005 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I discovered today that London has a substantially greater population than Norway, which surprised me < 1311666736 808497 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I think in *this* case it's just the US having fairly low population density. < 1311666794 416026 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Outside of the major population centers, you could without much trouble be at least a mile away from anyone else. < 1311666798 929285 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it varies a lot by state, I think < 1311666805 128700 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :True, it does. < 1311666865 626629 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyways. Everyone has cars, and there's a lot of space, so there's no incentive to make dense, walkable cities. < 1311666963 402038 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :supz < 1311667122 435225 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: i've always found it crazy how spread out everything in usa is < 1311667141 431705 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: if you had dense, walkable cities, you wouldn't have to use cars < 1311667172 791825 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes. And if we didn't already have to use cars, we would have reason to have dense, walkable cities. < 1311667194 505755 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1311667198 902370 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais: that's silly, it doesn't work like that < 1311667200 201154 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even not needing a car for some things is a benefit < 1311667211 416302 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. it takes me a couple of hours to walk to work, so I generally need to take a bus < 1311667224 249076 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if, say, I want to buy food, or go to the bank, that's within reasonable walking distance < 1311667224 550677 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it doesn't help that the car companies bought up all the public transit and ruined it in the early 1900s. < 1311667242 687195 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais: nowadays people need to commute, it's a requirement of our way of life. it takes a special dedication for someone not to commute at all. < 1311667250 183028 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the public services are moderately ruined here < 1311667255 70267 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :even i have to commute every now and then. < 1311667258 412556 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but even so, they're still cheaper than cars, by a factor of about 2 < 1311667273 167153 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i can find pretty much anything within walking distance. < 1311667279 500063 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do the opportunity costs on that look like? < 1311667286 290525 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The bus that goes by here runs twice a day. < 1311667306 856725 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on a popular bus route, it's about once per 15 minutes offpeak, and once every 5 minutes or so at rush hour < 1311667314 137193 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the least popular bus routes generally run once an hour < 1311667326 398720 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but tend to be pretty accurate with their timings, and have easily memorizable timetables < 1311667350 864268 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've only seen that performance in the handful of dense, relatively walkable cities. < 1311667362 639685 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :in london the important ones even run once an hour at night < 1311667375 268371 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they used to do that in Birmingham too < 1311667377 926484 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but don't any more < 1311667377 998237 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otherwise, the buses are utterly unusable. < 1311667387 80370 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead, they just stop a little past midnight, and start up again at 5am < 1311667395 2658 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :To the point that it would be quicker to walk. < 1311667404 887499 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: london isn't walkable at all. you're most likely to work within 40 minutes of commuting from where you live. < 1311667406 573035 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a land where it can be 8 miles to the grocery store. < 1311667435 528039 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, unlike utilities, workplaces tend to be rather further away < 1311667446 910835 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater_: Only 40? < 1311667461 45077 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in London, people generally use the Tube, even though it's really bad for medium-length distances (you can spend as long going down and up to reach it, as you would walking along the surface) < 1311667469 138729 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like being within walking distance of stuff < 1311667480 756075 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, that's the usual yes < 1311667491 335882 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Birmingham, the train seems most common if you live near a train line (which I do, but it's only about 30% likely), or the bus otherwise < 1311667498 830088 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, that's 40 minutes each way < 1311667499 63048 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater_: Impressive in such a highly-populated city. < 1311667504 887143 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater_: Yes, I know. < 1311667527 586481 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, funnily enough the "last mile" is the most expensive.. the tube itself usually takes a fraction of the time, but takes you the longest way < 1311667536 371211 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1311667563 239182 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH the tube makes you ill and deaf, so i don't like it. < 1311667564 670357 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater_: did you know that the escalators that reach the Tube system in London run about twice as fast as escalators elsewhere in the UK, such that they need a little practice to use safely? < 1311667577 284312 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an attempt to cut down on that effect < 1311667610 890821 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it's a rush, i like the escalators < 1311667627 934253 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(they also tell tourists/people who don't know what they're doing to keep to one side, so that they don't block the commuters from running up/down the escalators in the direction they're going to get places even faster) < 1311667639 656563 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like them too; I've been to London often enough that I know how to use them < 1311667654 237011 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :in brixton you have an escalator that starts out almost right at the entrance and goes all the way to the platform < 1311667661 309137 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's like 2-3 stories high < 1311667685 418917 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's bizzare. A bunch of webchat idiots were in both #chicken and #jesus < 1311667689 767270 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, people have to yield if they're not on the side < 1311667693 332369 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in #chicken anymore they banned webchat users < 1311667706 49176 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, what's #chicken and why is this combination bizarre? < 1311667728 186403 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's... just a really weird combination for a bunch of people to be present in, imo < 1311667779 143973 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1311667786 407791 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater_: Presumably Chicken Scheme. < 1311667809 222442 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :the transit system in berlin was very shitty < 1311667814 14031 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't get anywhere < 1311667819 962920 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :in munich it's much better < 1311667830 721785 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311667832 579554 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :munich also has a much higher population density, it's like zone 3 in london < 1311667840 654719 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably doesn't help that the transit system in Berlin spent a few decades having to work around the Wall. < 1311667867 986986 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: What I thought was a bit strange was that the tube walkways had all these "keep to the right" signs, yet you drive cars on the wrong side of the road. < 1311667869 23995 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, berlin transit is pretty much ubahn and sbahn, it has nothing to do with the wall. < 1311667888 80584 :Nisstyre!~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info JOIN :#esoteric < 1311667895 98849 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :the roads were build before the wall, so that's no problem either. < 1311667903 406964 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: the reason you drive on the left is that most people are right-handed, so you can get onto your horse from the sidewalk without your sword getting in the way < 1311667914 183390 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except they couldn't do much improvement on them. < 1311667917 187220 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: But why do you walk on the right, then? < 1311667928 755957 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the walk on the left/right seems arbitrary < 1311667935 673609 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's because people naturally go right when faced with obstacles < 1311667939 208912 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that they can attack them more easily < 1311667972 493454 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that's wrong, it's the usual on rhd roads for slow cars to be on the right side < 1311667983 407477 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"rhd roads"? < 1311667994 972633 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right-hand drive? < 1311667996 601219 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, i meant lhd roads < 1311668004 677756 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. "normal driving side" < 1311668018 198168 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the general rule in all road systems I've seen, in a range of countries, is that slow cars are adjacent to the sidewalk/pavement, fast cars nearer the centre < 1311668034 400763 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How optimistic of you. < 1311668043 213392 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess that's one way for the british to admit imperial arbitrations are failing and they need to make themselves compatible with the rest of the world < 1311668073 614961 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slow cars are inevitably side-by-side and going the same speed. < 1311668082 599265 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've also noticed another funny imperial/metric thing < 1311668093 931319 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Hungary, motorways don't have slip roads; instead, the speed limit on the rightmost lane (it's drive-on-the-right) gets reduced gradually to a very slow speed, then it just has a normal junction with another road, then it gets increased more quickly back up to full motorway speed again < 1311668096 189472 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Driving past a "Slow Traffic Keep Right — It's The Law!" sign. < 1311668148 247271 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: You can also buy firewood from (many) petrol stations in Finland, too. It feels logical. < 1311668163 351892 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :They sell "that sort of stuff". < 1311668184 93174 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is that the Schuko is specified in inches, whereas BS 1363 is specified in meters. how crazy is that? < 1311668194 79397 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like the bizarro world of electric engineering < 1311668196 871255 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also coals for barbequeueing. < 1311668202 331695 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: in the UK, slow cars in the inside lanes generally get mown down by lunatics < 1311668212 390694 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not really an ideal way of enforcing the law, but it works moderately well < 1311668217 358120 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: You have no idea how happy that idea makes me. < 1311668218 993300 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, lorries are banned from the inside lane in a motorway < 1311668237 65903 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seriously, that makes me ecstatic. < 1311668241 589333 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, you're not meant to keep to the inside lane except to overtake, but people do it anyway (keeping in the middle lane is fine) < 1311668265 366065 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, have you ever lived in hungary? < 1311668278 82791 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater_: only for a week < 1311668290 907056 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it makes lots of sense since the items you use for barbecue are of petrochemical origin. < 1311668292 198811 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't speak more than a couple of words of Hungarian, and they're mostly ones that can easily be inferred < 1311668302 731040 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, i am learning italian now. < 1311668306 617253 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I can pronounce it pretty well (it's a phonetic language, so it can be pronounced even without knowing what the words mean) < 1311668320 165740 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :People here generally tend to return to the outer lines after overtaking, at least on "proper" highways as opposed to these in-city things, but of course our roads aren't usually very busy. < 1311668321 303167 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm wondering if i should translate the source of the latest program to italian < 1311668396 51823 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, why would they do that with the Schuko and BS 1363? < 1311668410 130983 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :that makes no sense at all! < 1311668456 992621 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater_: Maybe it has something to do with how soda is sold by the liter in the US? < 1311668557 962237 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, more likely Germany just wanted to fuck with us. < 1311668572 194580 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, no freaking idea < 1311668589 339329 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would the british make the BS1363 metric then? < 1311668604 47471 :ais523_!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311668629 153124 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1311668630 888381 :ais523_!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1311668701 736534 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The British have a well-documented propensity for fucking with people. < 1311668729 574007 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's all very weird < 1311668844 562263 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, BS1363 isn't metric. < 1311668898 309396 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/4 inch wide by 5/32 inch high pins aren't metric. :) < 1311668933 353958 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've measured one, it's spot-on metric < 1311668941 751417 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me measure another one < 1311668960 464302 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They have retroactively assigned it to 6.35mm by 3.975mm. < 1311668985 34932 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though a more round 6.25mm by 3.9mm would be within tolerances. < 1311669019 986108 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which are ±0.13mm and ±0.075mm) < 1311669237 698856 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't be surprised if Schuko was also retroactively metricized; Wikipedia lists the pin separation at "19 mm", which is 0.748 inches, suspiciously close to 3/4. < 1311669277 86204 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that seems quite plausible. < 1311669349 150741 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the standard pin spacing in electronics, if you're assembling the circuit by hand, is a deciinch < 1311669364 42889 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the name of not-confusing-you, the US's connector, NEMA 1 or 6, is non-metric. < 1311669366 735166 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm, I think that needs a diaeresis < 1311669370 439745 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :deciïnch < 1311669385 228581 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, 5. < 1311669387 427068 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not 6. < 1311669421 440864 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i've measured three < 1311669427 121570 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(NEMA is a group of electrical socket standards; only 1 and 5 are in common domestic use. 1 is ungrounded, 5 is grounded.) < 1311669468 749943 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :some are closer to metric-like, some are closer to imperial-like, however in all three the longer dimension of the base of the small pins (the ones carrying hot and neutral) are spot-on 6 mm! < 1311669549 577343 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, what you're saying is that they're way out of spec in the name of metric? :P < 1311669564 394326 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1311669571 968730 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it might be so < 1311669602 706815 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That should be 6.35±0.13mm. < 1311669623 884525 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's definitely not 6.2 or more. < 1311670217 749851 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder.. why do more people not use banner style indent? it's so confenient < 1311670249 384597 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTBS seems to be the prevalent one, but it makes no sense in braceless languages.. and even in braced languages, once i started using it, it makes much more sense < 1311670334 725040 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the braced languages, OTBS is perceived as being part of the syntax. < 1311670357 462348 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's banner indent? < 1311670410 392534 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: The closing bracket is at the same indent level as the previous statements. < 1311670414 904428 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is ( < 1311670418 908894 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric : banner, < 1311670421 196069 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric : indent, < 1311670424 328619 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric : style. < 1311670425 766876 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric : ) < 1311670431 45945 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1311670431 696986 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like that. < 1311670449 16133 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :putting the closing bracket on the same line as the last statement makes more sense than that < 1311670456 93265 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I used to do that < 1311670456 189036 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find myself doing that more and more nowadays < 1311670456 755310 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's lisp style < 1311670459 447222 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1311670474 477288 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't use Lisp, but any writing out of ASTs by hand is going to end up with huge numbers of stacked parens < 1311670476 203022 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't like it because the closing can get lost < 1311670479 486834 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I've been doing that quite a bit < 1311670486 885069 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you concatenate < 1311670489 624278 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example < 1311670492 845013 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is ([ < 1311670498 305540 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric : banner, < 1311670500 362261 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric : style, < 1311670501 986881 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric : too. < 1311670503 684974 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric : ]) < 1311670571 35794 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i started using it because, well, in python basically you have very few situations where you actually have braces, and i was using that for a long time < 1311670593 799927 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :then i've had some heavy bash-style projects and using OTBS for the fi and done and so on just didn't make sense, so i started using banner style for that < 1311670609 862969 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then i noticed that it also applies to python, when you're using multiple lines for function calls etc < 1311670612 339765 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Absolutely *nothing* in Bourne makes sense. < 1311670615 585584 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And with that, sleep. < 1311672429 451593 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, this web page about Unicode is really hard to read, because it sprinkles Unicode everywhere gratuitously because it can < 1311672440 584178 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my browser interprets the encoding fine, but my fonts are missing many of the characters in question < 1311674008 345540 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1311674052 176562 :Slereah!x@ANantes-259-1-213-174.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1311674068 762055 :GuestIceKovu!x@ANantes-259-1-167-249.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1311674595 825977 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, just downloaded some crappy card game program < 1311674607 233586 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try it, there's an option for setting the random seed < 1311674614 169576 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That.... sounds abusable < 1311674739 463976 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1311674769 904859 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also quite common. Doesn't the Windows-bundled FreeCell also allow it? (With the old one having 32000 possible games, of which all but one are solvable, or something like that.) < 1311674791 766180 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, Barbu is not a single player game < 1311674827 749091 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, well, that's rather different. < 1311674845 569558 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/Xua00.png < 1311674903 320908 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not the prettiest dialog ever. < 1311675081 131419 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1311675277 407658 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311675347 320225 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, it's annoying having to use webchat on the wired connection here < 1311675365 863796 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially as the CAPTCHA requires unblacklisting script from Google < 1311675399 782367 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :luckily, I found a NoScript setting that lets me turn off a temporary-allow without reloading the page, so that I can have Google blocked except when typing the CAPTCHA < 1311675441 403424 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you had a reasonably perfect reality simulation... would you have to follow real world patent laws? :D < 1311675466 34089 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :eg.. is it illegal to build a patented device from physical space in a virtual space < 1311675508 975237 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :the courts will have fun with that one oneday < 1311675659 149235 :azaq231!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1311675782 58503 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1311675891 336509 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :So.. perhaps the mystery of society is that society is a living list composed of beings who are theoretically equal but actually cardinal < 1311675913 800114 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it is their dire burden to organize that list among themselves < 1311675927 392725 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the good of themselves and the good of the list < 1311675976 137948 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311676323 493288 :clog!~nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1311676356 218022 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What. < 1311676381 635745 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi clog < 1311677333 231053 :clog!~nef@bespin.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1311678183 881879 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I win < 1311678193 293058 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just fixed a bug in a C++ standard library using the unary + operator < 1311678676 149133 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there set theories with non-linear order relations on cardinality? < 1311678694 425756 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, what does the unary + operator do again? < 1311678703 501188 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes something positive? < 1311678723 830343 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater_: does nothing except perform integral promotion < 1311678729 470106 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :which, in this case, was exactly what I needed < 1311678781 714779 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is integral promotion? < 1311678882 7848 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179115136.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example, it can be used to force widening from smaller integral types to int, or ensure that an expression's result is treated as an rvalue and therefore not compatible with a non-const reference parameter. I submit, however, that these uses are better suited to code golf than readability < 1311678904 279480 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given that this is C++, if it's not a primitive type, you can never know what the unary + will do to it. < 1311678934 384191 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I wrote this earlier: if ((htole32(rv) & 0xffff) == 0x80cd) < 1311678942 485878 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was very tired, the line of code makes no sense in all sorts of ways < 1311678950 145640 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1311678952 695659 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: true < 1311678961 831835 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: can you imply what's going on there from context? < 1311678973 373261 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, well, imply the context from the code? < 1311678980 205914 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1311678993 654763 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean you're checking the low bits < 1311679016 432848 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the most obvious bug is that I don't htole16 the 0x80cd < 1311679030 595378 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not checking the low bits, I'm checking the first two bytes of rv < 1311679037 270319 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why there's a byte order conversion there < 1311679055 65371 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the reason is, the read command I have always reads four bytes at a time on x86 (eight on x86_64) < 1311679055 815656 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1311679089 300521 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the more subtle bug is, that CD 80 is an x86-specific asm instruction, so I may as well just hardcode the endianness because the code wouldn't work anyway on a different processor < 1311679097 223678 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just feels wrong to hardcode something like that < 1311679101 637334 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahaha < 1311679112 810770 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I don't know why I'm uneasy about hardcoding endianness, but not about hardcoding literal machine code < 1311679122 731493 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ha, it in fact looked like an x86 opcode, but I hadn't managed to find the list fast enough. < 1311679158 697244 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :CD is interrupt, right? < 1311679159 25833 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps so that if it gets ported to another processor, I can just copy the code, changing the machine code, and it won't break even if it happens to be big-endian < 1311679162 254141 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1311679170 507215 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and on Linux, CD 80 = syscall < 1311679184 998384 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't there a separate syscall instruction? < 1311679197 561048 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the syscall instruction is int 0x80 < 1311679217 489534 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think there's a single instruction which means "do syscall", it's done via the interrupt vector as interrupts get you into kernel mode < 1311679245 411405 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a syscall instruction on newer processors < 1311679249 482201 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's both "syscall" and "sysenter", from AMD and Intel. < 1311679252 380052 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's also a trick in this code that I only discovered by stracing strace < 1311679252 575005 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: aargh < 1311679255 237978 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does Linux actually use it? < 1311679259 699306 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: Yesish < 1311679260 204024 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so, I'll have to look up its machine code too < 1311679265 825361 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :On x86-64 it at least is used. < 1311679272 76771 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this code's 32-bit specific < 1311679278 452880 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: The 'correct' way to syscall on a modern Linux machine is by jumping into linux-gate.so < 1311679283 389393 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may port it to 64-bit someday, but it involves naming individual registers < 1311679287 542255 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I'm not trying to make a syscall, though < 1311679300 552166 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a magic shared library loaded into memory by the kernel at a fixed address which contains the syscall instruction, selected by processor to be whatever is fastest < 1311679307 532738 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to, when a different process makes a syscall, wind its IP back a bit and change its registers so it makes another syscall < 1311679338 152244 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I ended up replacing read() and write() with state machines, they can make up to five syscalls to emulate what read() and write() normally do < 1311679339 118751 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah ok < 1311679340 553726 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :all in the name of determinism < 1311679355 157016 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :linux-gate.so has some magic < 1311679369 471493 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, more magic's the last thing I need, I have enough of that stuff already in here < 1311679412 294579 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://lkml.org/lkml/2002/12/18/218 < 1311679423 737972 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm already accessing a file via /proc/*/fd because that's the only accessible name for it on the system < 1311679453 786061 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh wow, that's useful < 1311679458 143046 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux just subtracts two from the IP too? < 1311679473 856957 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that means that all the testing to see if I can get away with subtracting 2 from the IP is unnecessary < 1311679492 562849 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1311679515 246278 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.trilithium.com/johan/2005/08/linux-gate/ < 1311679564 189353 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, so /that's/ what VDSO stands for < 1311679565 625183 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fortuitously sysenter's also two bytes long. < 1311679566 684560 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd been wondering < 1311679571 125112 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it didn't seem to matter < 1311679576 189310 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I was curious < 1311679613 983269 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, it also tells me how to get at auxv < 1311679627 198571 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the kernel initializes part of it with 16 random bytes, I need to go and make them deterministic again < 1311679711 992866 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't help that the auxiliary vector is undocumented, and referenced only in the ELF loader < 1311679727 359824 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I've been grepping kernel sources far too much for this project) < 1311679831 877355 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: Anyway, do you actually need to mangle the EIP there? Isn't it just enough to do PTRACE_SYSCALL, then on the syscall entry stop just PTRACE_SETREGS the arguments and the syscall number to what you want and the PTRACE_SYSCALL again to get to the exit point? Why do you need to re-execute the actual instruction? < 1311679847 16976 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: because I need to replace one syscall with five < 1311679858 470796 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1311679867 256509 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :replacing one with one is easy, and doesn't require redoing syscall instructions at all < 1311679924 478776 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's not quite a simple 1-with-5, either; it's actually replacing 1 with 1, 2, 4, or 5, depending on return values, which is why I need the state machine) < 1311680029 113078 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if I should borrow strace's trick for ptracing child processes and still letting the parent get a wait() notification < 1311680039 185530 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it basically works by anticipating when the child's about to exit, and detaching just in time) < 1311680064 411677 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've already borrowed its trick for replacing fork with sys_clone so that the child can be traced too < 1311680082 362838 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(using an argument pattern that's documented, but not available via the clone(2) wrapper) < 1311680138 927561 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: It sounds like it should be possible to replace that one syscall with something that is configurable enough so that you can hook whatever complicated code you need to do at the other end of it, but maybe I won't start guessing without knowing the details. < 1311680141 256901 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(All this assuming you wish to stay strictly on the userland side.) < 1311680166 102159 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd write a kernel module if I had to, but I don't think it's necessary < 1311680190 1642 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I may as well explain what I'm doing in Stage 1 of the project (which is likely the hardest stage): trying to create a framework for running programs in a completely reproducable way < 1311680209 219258 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that given the same input, you get the same output, even if the program does something bizarre like catting /dev/random or printing out the values of pointers < 1311680217 964366 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or counting pagefaults < 1311680284 537204 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remember to account for accessing the processor performance counters with the RDTSC opcode. (Though it's possible that's a privileged operation? Or maybe not. It's supposed to be rather low-overhead.) < 1311680305 657444 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not < 1311680325 758318 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, ouch, you can do that? < 1311680337 593817 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may have to just hope that code doesn't do that < 1311680345 193627 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :single-stepping every instruction is intolerably slow < 1311680363 936824 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, it breaks on SMP systems, IIRC, and programs tend to avoid it for that reason < 1311680685 945533 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay, I introduced another person to the inability to decide on a language that is my life < 1311680693 371932 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, what do virtualisation programs do about RDTSC? < 1311680714 183597 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: pick PHP, that way at least you can be certain you made the wrong choice < 1311680913 549191 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: At least the AMD-V hardware virtualization system lets you do an "instruction intercept" for RDTSC. < 1311680928 611812 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if it's doing full software emulation it can of course do whatever. < 1311680946 384630 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, I'm hoping to avoid having to do full software emulation < 1311681078 277887 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd be nice if this worked for arbitrary programs, but I mostly just want to get the subset that people actually use working < 1311681092 867315 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, cat almost works, I'm just missing deterministic support for open < 1311681095 860725 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The hardware virtualization systems would probably let you control everything, but you probably can't do that from a user-mode process (at least VirtualBox needs the vboxdrv module, which I think does something related) and it would be a lot more complicated than just some system-call trapping. < 1311681102 730392 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1311681114 940665 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can singlestep, but not stop on instructions of your choice < 1311681141 9513 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, what about setting a breakpoint everywhere that looked like a RDTSC instruction? does setting breakpoints on data do anything? < 1311681159 430184 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's implemented by replacing instructions, it wouldn't work in case it overwrote data or a misaligned instruction < 1311681162 212100 :ttm_!~daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1311681170 111479 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but somehow I think it's implemented a safer way < 1311681172 173684 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :You might run out of (hardware) breakpoints. < 1311681195 387638 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, yes < 1311681199 302115 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they'd have to be hardware breakpoints < 1311681203 221966 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many do you get? < 1311681221 840436 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to do all this stuff without really knowing what I'm doing < 1311681313 507924 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, there's something so wrong about typing "strace strace", even though there's no obvious reason why it wouldn't chain < 1311681357 729704 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there are four breakpoint control registers, but I don't know anything about any kernel interfaces for accessing that stuff. < 1311681378 238998 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't notice one in the list of syscalls < 1311681383 888645 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'll just go download gdb source, and look there < 1311681417 925933 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just about to suggest that. < 1311681443 982406 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bleh, apt-get source is hanging, presumably because it's using the wrong proxy < 1311681477 98830 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are some undocumented features in the x86(-64) hardware breakpoint system which lets it do... I forgot what it was, some form of data-dependent breakpointing in hardware that's not officially supported. < 1311681516 568966 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1311681518 432110 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Since they depend on hardware resources, hardware breakpoints may be limited in number; when the user asks for more, GDB will start trying to set software breakpoints. (On some architectures, notably the 32-bit x86 platforms, GDB cannot alsways know whether there's enough hardware resources to insert all the hardware breakpoints and watchpoints. On those platforms, GDB prints an error message only when the program being debugged is continued.)" < 1311681525 81936 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1311681532 139973 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll download it with Firefox instead < 1311681542 82975 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :GDB's "software breakpoints" are based on opcode replacement. < 1311681547 814676 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sent off for a new AC adapter for my laptop < 1311681552 926586 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :opcode replacement definitely won't work < 1311681556 428874 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Waited a couple of weeks < 1311681568 41034 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And they sent me the wrong thing < 1311681596 726963 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1311681621 210896 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: You should be writing for a Harvard arch, then you could freely replace opcodes without worrying about messing up data. < 1311681634 717269 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: heh < 1311681662 243836 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can actually tell where the text, rodata and bss segments were in the executable, by looking at mmap < 1311681667 999342 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, /proc/*/maps < 1311681694 28040 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can save on required breakpoints somewhat by only setting them in executable segments < 1311681698 368447 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and moving them around on every call to mprotect < 1311681763 988824 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The RDTSC problem might not be very important in practice, at least for "sensible" programs. I think it's mostly used as a high-precision timer for "interactive" things, and even there it's a bit discouraged practice since it's not a monotonic clock in a SMP system, so well-behaved programs should be using the OS interfaces instead. < 1311681799 559283 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a high-precision timer for interactive things is exactly the sort of thing I need to stabilise < 1311681807 423857 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :time is one of the hardest things to get reproducible < 1311681835 932001 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, anyone know how to modify a file's inode change time? as far as I can tell, the only way to do so is to set the system clock, change the inode, then put the system clock back again, and that's obviously ridiculous < 1311681851 630158 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'll just pretend it's equal to the modification time on read, much simpler that way < 1311681884 481048 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: Unmount, manipulate bits, remount. :p < 1311681899 927151 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fs I'm using isn't backed by an actual device < 1311681902 346437 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a tempfs < 1311681915 581488 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is mounted in a separate namespace so that, from the point of view of other processes, it can't be named < 1311681952 504350 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :except by going through /proc < 1311681972 329444 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the other way round, there's no way to name files on the main system's file system at all, except by breaking a chroot, which is exactly what I want) < 1311681987 652940 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think there's an actual interface for setting the ctime, though. You may need to just fake the value returned by stat. < 1311682008 827870 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, that seems simplest < 1311682021 19987 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or use a FUSE filesystem instead of a tmpfs.) < 1311682024 891022 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I suspect it's partly because setting the ctime should, logically, update the ctime to the current time immediately afterwards) < 1311682042 296635 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm using a tmpfs because it's there, and it's convenient < 1311682110 410402 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and has almost the right semantics < 1311682196 188951 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reading the ptrace manpage made me wonder what exactly is the difference between PTRACE_SYSCALL and PTRACE_SYSEMU. Is it just that the latter doesn't stop at syscall exit, the assumption being that you're not going to actually perform a syscall as the child but instead fake it in the tracing parent and return the results directly? < 1311682226 344370 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: PTRACE_SYSEMU basically changes the int 0x80 (or sysenter) into a nop < 1311682231 379093 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1311682238 300125 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the kernel doesn't do the syscall, just leaves the registers as they are < 1311682267 627713 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I need to remove a syscall, I can do so by changing orig_eax to some nonimplemented number on the call, then changing the return value from -ENOSYS to whatever I want on the return < 1311682289 640224 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't needed to do that yet, but suspect I may end up having to at some point < 1311682318 674138 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose you want PTRACE_SYSCALL since you want to execute your syscalls as if the child were calling them, instead of just faking them in the tracing process. < 1311682324 850606 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1311682336 214396 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and because you can emulate SYSEMU with SYSCALL, but not vice versa < 1311682346 177318 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially as the vast majority (well, more than half) of syscalls go through unchanged < 1311682379 36732 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, do you know of any way to interrupt a long sleep (like select(NULL, NULL, NULL, 100000);)? < 1311682396 910792 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't tried any methods yet; I'm hoping that it works to send SIGTRAP to the process, then use ptrace to replace it with SIG_0 < 1311682424 567245 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in theory that should cause the select to keep on going, but I doubt it can because there was an actual signal there < 1311682434 350674 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sending signals sounds likely to work, that's what usually breaks long-running syscalls. < 1311682464 380804 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, the solution is likely to involve signals somehow < 1311682471 43935 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the man pages say that they're only interrupted by handled signals < 1311682490 872459 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, that seems inaccurate, as you'd expect, say, an unhandled SIGINT to exit the process and interrupt the syscall in the process < 1311682491 211580 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's that system call restart mechanism that was described/mentioned in the linux-gate text. < 1311682495 410839 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(pun unintentional) < 1311682503 44568 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :system call restart's used in a different set of cases, I think < 1311682518 125244 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm wondering what happens if you signal the process, then use ptrace to unsignal the process again (which is possible) < 1311682526 218395 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you get EINTR, or restart, or something else? < 1311682712 347480 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure I'd like to hazard a guess. I don't even know what happens first when you send a handled signal to a process that's currently being PTRACE_SYSCALL'd; whether it will stop at the "syscall exit" SIGTRAP-alike or what. < 1311682731 188533 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither do I < 1311682735 378083 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should be easy to test, at least < 1311682847 507161 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The syscall restart mechanism at least works in user code (it's just the return address that changes) and presumably you get the ptrace "syscall exit" trap at that point, so you can there decide whether to allow the restart to happen or not. But I don't really know the exact order of things happening, i.e. when will the signal get (a) delivered to ptrace or (b) handled if you let it be. < 1311682910 197620 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sent SIGINT to sleep(1), and got a syscall return with value -516 (there doesn't seem to be an errno 516), followed by SIGINT arriving < 1311682935 723479 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems it was using nanosleep to do its sleeping < 1311682970 230786 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular, -516 does not seem to be -EINTR, which is -4 < 1311682994 73557 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it is -512-4. < 1311683002 84924 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The 512 sounds like a flag. < 1311683011 63695 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1311683021 459995 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's probably it < 1311683022 584102 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Pure guess.) < 1311683047 105597 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me try it again using a syscall that sleep(1) will ignore < 1311683091 382525 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sent it SIGCHLD, and it returned -516, then received SIGCHLD, ignored it, then called syscall 0 < 1311683103 389860 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is restart_syscall < 1311683125 351934 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does look very much like the -512 is a sign that the syscall should be restarted, if the program is interested in restarting it < 1311683126 904584 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it gets "physically" interrupted in all cases, but auto-restarted if the signal is not handled. < 1311683131 216823 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1311683197 521095 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to signal(7), nanosleep is interrupted and returns EINTR if interrupted by a signal handler < 1311683208 193623 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that wasn't a signal handler, it was SIGCHLD, which sleep(1) has no reason to handle because it never forks < 1311683236 972644 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The 'strace' command prints the return value -- when I "sleep 1000" + kill -CHLD it -- as "ERESTART_RESTARTBLOCK (To be restarted)" < 1311683240 233845 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :all I need to do to force an EINTR, then, is to replace the -516 with -4, I bet < 1311683247 222380 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I can get a success return by replacing it with 0 < 1311683265 115783 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :strace is great for making sense of things < 1311683284 779504 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, I've been expanding syscall arguments that represent flags just by compiling them into a small test program and stracing them < 1311683375 218583 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good way of letting someone else have to handle the dirty work of gathering lists of all those flags and their meanings. < 1311683422 63160 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dread trying to deal with ioctl < 1311683457 148231 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least it can only be used on character special devices, which cuts down the number of cases somewhat; if I don't mknod a device, then nothing can ioctl at it < 1311683464 376398 :CakeProphet!~adam@h112.26.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1311683464 428956 :CakeProphet!~adam@h112.26.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net QUIT :Changing host < 1311683464 429114 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1311683505 133801 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps I'll go and censor anything in my code that gives away why I'm writing it, and post source somewhere < 1311683507 627787 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'll take a while, though < 1311683524 897134 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :linux/errno.h has values 512..516 as ERESTARTSYS, ERESTARTNOINTR, ERESTARTNOHAND, ENOIOCTLCMD and ERESTART_RESTARTBLOCK with a comment "These should never be seen by user programs. -- Note that ptrace can observe these at syscall exit tracing, but they will never be left for the debugged user process to see." < 1311683542 681271 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :good catch < 1311683579 848631 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also for some improbable reason there's a set of NFSv3 errors in the same file. < 1311683584 106420 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I should try to track down that suspected kernel bug I saw earlier < 1311683614 824276 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define EJUKEBOX 528 /* Request initiated, but will not complete before timeout */ <- Interestingly named. < 1311683696 278838 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :same file? < 1311683721 352554 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I should look into the implementation of syscall(2) some time < 1311683941 699325 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: gdb/i386-nat.c seems to do the debug register accesses < 1311683946 733302 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems that you can only set four hardware break/watchpoints < 1311683963 635137 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a little annoyingly low < 1311683963 744583 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, there's DR0 .. DR3 registers for it. < 1311683991 514698 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and DR6 and DR7 are status and control < 1311684025 556799 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've only used three at any given time. < 1311684138 450709 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the actual interface for setting the debug registers for another process in Linux appears to be to poke into the context-switched-out version of the registers using ptrace, so that they get set as the process context switches back in < 1311684236 628480 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha, it's "u_debugreg" in struct user < 1311684237 858448 :ttm_!~daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1311684271 268746 :clog!~nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1311684373 424560 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1311684753 467209 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another auto-generated book: http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/nomic-lambert-m-surhone/1025063254?ean=9786130549695&itm=13&usri=nomic < 1311684776 340614 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or... huh? < 1311684788 187080 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does the cover know that it's Suber if it's autogenerated? < 1311684797 150706 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But... HIGH QUALITY WIKIPEDIA ARTICLES < 1311684864 30977 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/road-rules-lambert-m-surhone/1028378779?ean=9783639996302&itm=1&usri=lambert%2bm%2bsurhone < 1311684902 297875 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, clicking the cover gives a different picture < 1311685402 786932 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know who has an underappreciated job? < 1311685409 507141 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tech support people < 1311686313 287374 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1311686337 944562 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1311687177 334427 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-55.elisa.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1311687617 713437 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1311687695 265403 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311687787 706326 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1311688517 793655 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1311688720 403064 :itidus21!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1311688937 224749 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1311689642 648744 :itidus21!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au NICK :itidus20 < 1311690245 776960 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1311690336 219184 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1311690401 351425 :MSleep!~fyrc@c-174-55-44-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net NICK :MDude < 1311690652 110529 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1311692102 448262 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1311694482 111032 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1311694991 486554 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1311695106 341151 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1311697094 972522 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pl fracf = \x y -> (color iters) $ (mandelbrot iters) x y < 1311697095 25549 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fracf = (color iters .) . mandelbrot iters < 1311697389 825821 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello! < 1311698146 529072 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-12-128.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1311698317 552523 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311698598 523784 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1311702458 543620 :TeruFSX!~quassel@pool-214-156.res.carleton.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1311704133 565263 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1311704159 343878 :TeruFSX!~quassel@pool-214-156.res.carleton.edu QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1311705845 189052 :itidus21!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1311705979 137732 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1311706156 124650 :itidus21!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au NICK :itidus20 < 1311706546 72270 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello! < 1311706572 462460 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know own an inflatable toy electric guitar < 1311706598 539789 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can one know own? < 1311706612 614495 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was a slip of the finger. < 1311706618 97593 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant "now own" < 1311706627 412380 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, s/know/now/ < 1311706663 31965 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that how it's done? < 1311706678 635140 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION . o O ( "now" ++ "here" )
< 1311706797 370756 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-223-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Yuh. < 1311706804 893073 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh good < 1311707450 670880 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1311709255 143489 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-55.elisa.ee PART :#esoteric < 1311712120 632185 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got TVTropes out of my top six websites on chrome on this computer! < 1311712176 298470 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1311712222 307018 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And now I am anxiously awaiting a mildly embarrasing video of myself to be uploaded to the internet < 1311712962 650913 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1311713216 598866 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've had an idea for an esoteric programming language < 1311713254 645782 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gonna make a page in user namespace < 1311713268 838818 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. What idea is that? < 1311713296 495303 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know Binary Combinatory Logic and Binary Tag System and things? < 1311713308 119519 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The binary ones < 1311713319 523431 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1311713338 660762 :quintopia!~quintopia@74.117.158.92 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311713338 731206 :quintopia!~quintopia@74.117.158.92 QUIT :Changing host < 1311713338 783484 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia JOIN :#esoteric < 1311713427 26303 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, it's 2^n of those < 1311713442 587860 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a variety pack of binary turing tarpits with no IO < 1311713463 818418 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to call it... BINARY VARIETY PACK < 1311714791 641096 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/User:Taneb/Binary_Variety_Pack < 1311714853 228568 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1311715214 15095 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-12-128.tn.glocalnet.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1311715932 961004 :Nisstyre!~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1311715979 818406 :Nisstyre!~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info JOIN :#esoteric < 1311716651 932172 :Nisstyre!~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1311717228 760491 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone here remember a novelty abstract strategy game from the 1990s where there was like height differences between different squares on the board, and the pieces were different-sized semispheres? < 1311717884 975840 :GuestIceKovu!x@ANantes-259-1-167-249.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was mostly playing Red Alert back then as far as strategy games go < 1311717890 128016 :GuestIceKovu!x@ANantes-259-1-167-249.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr NICK :Slereah < 1311717894 823297 :Slereah!x@ANantes-259-1-167-249.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :And AGE OF EMPIRE < 1311718524 543570 :Nisstyre!~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info JOIN :#esoteric < 1311718781 323895 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah: Yes, in the 1990s they could only afford a single Empire. < 1311718837 243435 :Slereah!x@ANantes-259-1-167-249.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, obviously, the only empire was MINE < 1311718841 370351 :Slereah!x@ANantes-259-1-167-249.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I WIN < 1311719114 351911 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i recall that game from some old popular science magazine adverts < 1311719118 296398 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never saw it with my own eyes < 1311719125 439497 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and now I've gotten intrigued as to what the rules may have been < 1311719133 641835 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :how the differences of elevation may have affected the gameplay < 1311721772 622085 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1311722038 515615 :TeruFSX!~quassel@pool-214-156.res.carleton.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1311722925 426527 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1311724007 742131 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric