00:00:25 <elliott> It's a bull penis _and_ a beating heart.
00:01:25 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot, are you going to threaten to kill me with the bull penis?
00:01:26 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: though the fact that this is apparently a bull penis, and a variety of interests. you have a passion for really terrible movies. he would just go on and on about it.
00:01:41 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: is it there she is.
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00:18:02 <Lymee> fungot, are you still in youtube mode?
00:18:03 <fungot> Lymee: the stuff scattered about your room. you of course it was a nasty pair of beagle puss glasses, several () a blank card, producing a different hole in the roof
00:18:08 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
00:18:09 <Lymee> fungot, are you still in youtube mode?
00:18:10 <fungot> Lymee: got footage of the a-320 that had been certified by the computer overrode the automatic throttle system but it keeps skippin for me, you managed to contradict yourself there big time, this movie will be epic
00:18:36 <fungot> Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673)
00:18:43 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: this is it, like an apple or a cunning prankster than a common sort of
00:18:52 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher homestuck* ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
00:18:57 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
00:18:59 <fungot> Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673)
00:19:02 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
00:19:04 <fungot> Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673)
00:19:17 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher homestuck ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
00:19:19 <fungot> Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673)
00:19:31 <fungot> Lymee: i see def-bf as being used to do that
00:19:36 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher homestuck ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
00:19:39 <fungot> Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673)
00:19:46 <elliott> Anyway, stop talking, I need to war with Lymee.
00:19:50 <fungot> Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673)
00:19:50 <fungot> Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673)
00:19:51 <fungot> Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673)
00:19:51 <fungot> Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673)
00:19:51 <fungot> Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673)
00:19:53 <fungot> elliott: are you in the medium.
00:19:59 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher homestuck* ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
00:20:10 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher homestuck* ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
00:20:26 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher homestuck* ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
00:21:07 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7* fisher homestuck ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
00:21:10 <fungot> Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673)
00:21:30 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
00:21:39 <fungot> Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673)
00:21:41 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
00:21:43 <fungot> Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673)
00:21:44 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
00:21:47 <elliott> fizzie: You should totally just remove ^style.
00:21:48 <fungot> Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673)
00:21:50 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
00:21:53 <fungot> Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673)
00:22:04 <monqy> this is dumb and makes me sad
00:22:13 <elliott> monqy: its my sworn duty to fight all asies
00:22:24 <Lymee> fungot: Hi. Are you Homestuck? :D
00:22:24 <fungot> Lymee: listen guys it was a test
00:22:32 <fungot> Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673)
00:22:34 <fungot> elliott: as it turned out, fooling around and transportalize as far as the details of the game mythology by now. try to be careful, ok? this book is full of more meow." she mistook this for more nonsense, but it is of course.
00:23:13 <Lymee> fungot: do not homestuck style ever again. OK?
00:23:14 <fungot> Lymee:/ more enduring social instincts conquer other less persistent instincts--the social virtues alone regarded by savages--the self-regarding virtues acquired at a later period over/ lighter and upper lavas :)/ uspallata range; origin subsequent to that :)/ perfect flowers 4.27 inches in height; or as 100 to 75.
00:24:13 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher homestuck* ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
00:24:24 <fungot> Selected style: jargon (UNIX-HATERS mailing list archive)
00:24:25 <fungot> elliott: cisco systems pays dec for stolen software developers, system v release 4 and osf/ 3 globbing, which bloomed into a daze where they kept the cadr carcasses they now have a link to a
00:24:32 <fungot> elliott: like a very clear mirror
00:24:50 <fungot> Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material)
00:24:55 <fungot> Lymee: that is a winner's attitude, and there is no particularly good human translation for this concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear conc
00:25:01 <fungot> elliott: about his hat dirty. either way, spoils are yours toward a common goal, and because you can't understand
00:25:05 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
00:25:16 <fungot> Selected style: wp (1/256th of all Wikipedia "Talk:" namespace pages)
00:25:21 <fungot> Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings)
00:25:25 <fungot> Lymee: as a veteran of the game. it's what happens when you start running, she'll have to pry the cigarette holder to support.
00:25:29 <fungot> Lymee: your blood is, he's a total badass, and that his awesomeness was also sort of a thing i do. she is the best character, you know. forever!
00:25:43 <fungot> Lymee: that happens, right. maybe it would be best not to be near it when this happens every little gag and expected to arrive today that i was about to get blown up! this does not seem to exist in a state of almost perpetual stalemate, and expands to a larger board and more exotic collection of what he refers to as a thermal hull, instead of some kind of clock pun. no. cold. really cold shit flushed from derse. dave's package
00:25:58 <monqy> that does not sound like shakespeare that osunds like hommestucke
00:26:51 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher homestuck* ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
00:27:40 <fungot> elliott: the point is its important! everyone )(as just been so busy abjuring, you don't actually give a shit. if it were up to him we would try to be these mysterious characters but you suspect. what a royal mess of his lovely new horseleather bib. it is a good idea.
00:27:54 <elliott> it ignores you after a while
00:29:12 <fungot> Lymee: keep. i will walke my selfe to thy direction, toward london then, for we haue put thee in comfort, not by two that i know our greatest friends attend vs
00:34:28 <Lymee> fungot, if elliott messed with your brain, I swear...
00:34:28 <fungot> Lymee: in that reality. she flew in his window, seized the game with a dead heir and witch
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01:01:04 <fungot> Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings)
01:01:09 <Lymee> fungot: kill elliott please
01:01:10 <fungot> Lymee: hub. vpon my sword, and turne her out, and therefore more valiant, being as good a man as york! vernon. hark ye: not so much as conjure fort, and make a darke night too of halfe the day: which better then the male. it is
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01:47:35 <monqy> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/User:UToneyNicholsonm this userpage makes me happy
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02:04:26 * oerjan suddenly has an idea for a weird captcha
02:04:41 <oerjan> "What is the URL of this page?"
02:05:11 <oerjan> it's sole purpose would be to reveal the location of captcha farms
02:05:55 <oerjan> ok, it might also work slightly as an ordinary captcha
02:07:14 * Lymee did not edit that userpage with a stupid meme
02:08:35 * oerjan refuses to admit that it is an improvement
02:16:14 <MDude> For it to work, you'd need to find a way to prevent it form being recognised automatically.
02:16:49 <MDude> Since a bot would be able to know what url it's looking at.
02:17:39 <MDude> Maybe have a number of different types of tasks, and instead of obfuscating the answer, do so with the question.
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02:18:51 <Patashu> 'what is the URL of this page'?
02:18:55 <Patashu> how would that reveal captcha farms?
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02:21:07 <pikhq> Patashu: Mechanical Turk type captcha farms.
02:21:44 <Patashu> Oh, I see, captchas being solved on another side
02:21:52 <Patashu> But would the captcha being executed know what url it's on?
02:27:34 <MDude> That would be hard.
02:28:11 <oerjan> i was imagining the sort of thing where your captcha is used for a captcha on another page, which the spammers control... something i read about somewhere
02:28:20 <MDude> Though really, it's not like it needs to know. If someone gives the wrong url from seeing it on a farmign site, then it's the wrong one.
02:28:37 <MDude> Er, then it's not like you need ot let them go through anyway.
02:28:50 <MDude> What oerjan jsut said.
02:29:37 <elliott> oerjan: that would most likely be an iframe, though
02:29:44 <elliott> in which case the URL that the captcha saw would be itself
02:30:10 <elliott> I guess it could detect whether it was in frames, but
02:31:58 <pikhq> oerjan: i.e. Mechanical Turk.
02:32:01 <oerjan> hm shouldn't captchas do that kind of detection anyway
02:32:11 <itidus20> MDude: i think it would help if they found a way to integrate the name of a website into the background of a captcha
02:32:39 <elliott> oerjan: I suspect they simply screenshot it or similar
02:32:40 <itidus20> the problem then would be that the varmints would try to unintegrate the background
02:33:01 <oerjan> elliott: if it's screenshot, then the scheme should work...
02:33:29 <itidus20> like, supposedly they do captcha redirections too
02:33:47 <itidus20> like having a site which borrows someone elses capcthas
02:33:58 <itidus20> to get naive people to fill them in
02:34:09 <oerjan> itidus20: that's what i'm talking about
02:34:12 <MDude> If they just type what's in the image, though, it doesn't give away the location.
02:34:32 <elliott> MDude: the image asks them to input the url they are on
02:34:33 <itidus20> i think if they were to put the URL into the captcha image itself it would help
02:34:53 <itidus20> which they would then of course try to remove
02:34:58 <oerjan> itidus20: um you are having the opposite idea of what this is intended to do
02:34:58 <monqy> all I remember is utrecht is scary
02:35:22 <elliott> itidus20: knowing they're helping spammers won't stop people helping
02:35:34 <oerjan> itidus20: this is supposed to trick the people filling in the captchas to reveal what website they are filling it in on
02:35:34 <elliott> not starving > not helping spammers
02:35:40 <MDude> Well I think it would actually stop a few folk.
02:35:54 <elliott> MDude: I gather they mainly use farms of Chinese people and the like
02:36:15 <MDude> Yes, though that wouldn't exactly be like Mechanical Turk.
02:38:04 <MDude> In that case, it seems like it would be easier to help decrease poverty in china that to stop an army of determined slaves.
02:38:48 <itidus20> i heard that they make prisoners play world of warcraft for example
02:39:10 <MDude> I would think that would be a bit risky.
02:39:18 <elliott> "Welcome to prison... here's your MMO account."
02:39:31 <elliott> "ANYTHING BUT WORLD OF WARCRAFT!!!!!!"
02:39:32 <MDude> How to they prevent the prisoners from leaking out information?
02:39:41 <elliott> "I'm a great Starcraft player -- I swear!"
02:39:43 <oerjan> ok if these are really mostly chinese farms, then i get another idea: make captchas that require people to know something the chinese government is censoring :P
02:39:51 <itidus20> they're not allowed to "play" as such.. they have to tediously earn money
02:40:05 <MDude> Ah, so no chat ability I guess.
02:40:10 <oerjan> and/or which reveals such information
02:40:11 <elliott> oerjan: "What is the Tienanmen square massacre?"
02:40:14 <monqy> alternatively: get --yes
02:40:16 <elliott> s/What is/When did the - happen/
02:41:28 <itidus20> now... how to convince them to do that
02:42:17 <itidus20> i don't think blizzard would like that
02:42:50 <MDude> I don't think WoW uses captchas anyway.
02:42:51 <monqy> ...why did someone edit idiocy into a spam userpage
02:43:16 <itidus20> MDude, but still... the game of WoW could be edited to send such messages
02:43:17 <monqy> is 68.95.248.65 2 years of age
02:43:35 <monqy> I'm bad at looking
02:44:13 <MDude> I would've made a joke referencing Crab Nicholson.
02:44:35 <itidus20> they could introduce new creature into WoW.. three watch crab and grass mud horse
02:45:33 <itidus20> but that would just cause a fury of immense proportions
02:46:42 <oerjan> itidus20: iirc that wouldn't be any different from a dirty pun in english
02:46:52 <oerjan> which would upset the americans i assume
02:49:17 <elliott> monqy: so the gpipe guy........
02:49:23 <elliott> monqy: responded to my issues and is looking at my fork...............
02:49:29 <elliott> and is supportive of making it windowing-system-generic...............
02:49:32 <elliott> and replacing Vec.............
02:49:55 <oerjan> unforking in progress...
02:50:19 <monqy> elliott: replacing vec with what
02:50:26 <elliott> monqy: something else.........maybe tuples..........
02:50:38 <elliott> these are...... the iksues.............
02:50:40 <elliott> https://github.com/tobbebex/GPipe/issues/1
02:50:40 <elliott> https://github.com/tobbebex/GPipe/issues/2
02:51:04 <monqy> but can tuples do linear algebra
02:51:56 <monqy> effort in rewriting whatever vec did
02:52:27 <elliott> gpipe doesn't use so much that rewriting the functions for tuples would be worse than keeping it
02:52:28 <oerjan> > (1,2) + (3,4) -- hm?
02:52:44 <elliott> oerjan: ok gpipe does a _bit_ more than that with them :D
02:52:44 <itidus20> oerjan: ok so rather something like WoWleaks
02:53:00 <elliott> oerjan: http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/Vec/0.9.8/doc/html/Data-Vec-LinAlg.html
02:53:32 <itidus20> finding out what is being censored and leaking it in WoW
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02:54:36 <oerjan> itidus20: i really don't think WoW is a useful place for this. all it would achieve is to get it banned in china.
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02:58:33 <oerjan> i have this idea that the captcha would discriminate based on IP - it would use bad information about any country _except_ the one you are connecting from
02:59:54 <oerjan> thus you would only get your own country insulted if you are doing something like rerouting through a botnet in another country
03:00:44 <oerjan> (as spammers are likely to do)
03:01:59 <elliott> Warning: Ignoring unusable UNPACK pragma on the
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03:02:36 <oerjan> elliott: UNPACK cannot be used on polymorphic types, can it?
03:03:04 <oerjan> because the unpacked size has to be known
03:03:12 <Lymee> oerjan, why would you do that?
03:03:44 <elliott> oerjan: yeah, I just want these compile-time vectors to end up as effectively tuples, really :P
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03:04:55 <elliott> I really wish GHC had pattern synonyms
03:05:53 <monqy> a few things about patterns make me sad but I forgot what they are oops
03:05:58 <Lymee> :t tmap f (a, b, c) = (f a, f b, f c)
03:06:06 <Lymee> :t \f (a, b, c) -> (f a, f b, f c)
03:06:06 <lambdabot> forall t t1. (t -> t1) -> (t, t, t) -> (t1, t1, t1)
03:08:21 <oerjan> monqy: well they aren't truly first class for one thing
03:08:38 <oerjan> well, i guess that's most of it
03:09:22 <elliott> oerjan: what's the maximum tuple length the report guarantees again?
03:09:40 <oerjan> 15 rings a bell, but don't count on it
03:11:41 <oerjan> of course only 2 has more than a couple useful functions
03:12:29 <monqy> was that a pun aaaaaaa
03:13:39 <monqy> lack of general support for n-touples makes me sad
03:15:05 <monqy> does TH help much at all?
03:15:36 <monqy> it's been so long since I used it, but I remember some general tuple constructy stuff
03:17:29 <elliott> im trying to figure out how to make constructing tuples non-ugly :(
03:17:33 <elliott> a :- b :- c :- Nil is ugly because of the :- Nil
03:17:43 <elliott> but (a :- b :- c) is unsustainable, you have to use ugly type-family crap and it doesn't really work
03:17:52 <elliott> or typeclass shit i suppose
03:18:32 <monqy> the :- Nill reminds me of the :.() or whatever it was in Vec
03:20:32 <elliott> monqy: yeah it's pretty much the same
03:20:45 <elliott> it's just that Vec doesn't use gadts so it can be more flexible about waht the nil value is
03:20:48 <elliott> hmm, I could try a quasiquotation thing
03:21:15 <itidus20> ok i just had an idea for a programming game.. basically the interpreter is undocumented.. so you have to uncover the syntax of the language somehow
03:21:19 <elliott> [vec| a, b, c |] or something I guess
03:21:35 <monqy> are the commas necessary
03:21:48 <monqy> I guess they might help make it cleaner
03:21:49 <itidus20> perhaps you could infer the syntax entirely through error messages
03:21:54 <elliott> [vec| (9+0) (9+9) |] is kind of ugly
03:21:59 <elliott> compared to [vec| 9+0, 9+9 |]
03:22:27 <elliott> I guess f [v|(a,b)|] = ...
03:23:13 <monqy> I prefer [v|a,b|] over [v|(a,b)|]
03:23:22 <monqy> the parens seem a bit extraneous
03:23:23 <elliott> oh and that means you can't shadow v
03:24:08 <monqy> oh, that stuff doesn't have its own namespace
03:26:48 <monqy> I think my favourite so far might be [vec| a, b |], in that case
03:28:00 <elliott> vecSizeIsNat :: ((Nat n) => r) -> Vec n a -> r
03:28:01 <elliott> vecSizeIsNat k (_ :- xs) = vecSizeIsNat k xs
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03:33:19 <elliott> I wish GHC had proper existential quantification, can you make this happen?????????????????
03:33:39 <elliott> I am all kinds of down on having to choose between continuation-passing style and a typeclass for my fromList, ProofWizard
03:34:00 <ProofWizard> saves you from explicit continuations, at least
03:34:14 <ProofWizard> besides, things aren't all fun and games with real existentials
03:34:44 <elliott> And I know they aren't, but I can dream.
03:35:44 <elliott> ProofWizard: I don't suppose proof wizards have an opinion on how to mitigate or avoid the ugly ":- V" in (a :- b :- c :- V) without resorting to an even uglier [vec| a, b, c |]
03:36:52 <elliott> ProofWizard: You are the shittiest kind of wizard, man
03:37:56 <elliott> ProofWizard: I don't suppose you know of any decent existing statically-sized vector packages on Hackage, though? I was incredibly surprised that I couldn't find a good one :-P
03:38:09 <Patashu> Hmm, I'm still not happy with the name of http://esolangs.org/wiki/Wirefunge
03:38:15 <ProofWizard> most of the decent ones I've written live in dark corners of my hard drive or on hpaste
03:38:47 <elliott> Patashu: Call it the wire-crossing problem
03:39:09 <elliott> ProofWizard: You should join my (one-man) Bitter About All the Old Hpastes Being Lost Brigade
03:39:36 <monqy> one time I couldn't find a hpaste I wanted to find
03:39:39 <monqy> because it was lost
03:48:41 <elliott> http://hpaste.org/49865 whats meant to be seemingly impossible about this....
03:49:30 <Patashu> what do you call those, nondeterministic functions?
03:50:09 <Patashu> I saw one that made power sets in learnyouahaskell
03:52:48 <oerjan> > filterM (const [False, True]) "abcd"
03:52:49 <lambdabot> ["","d","c","cd","b","bd","bc","bcd","a","ad","ac","acd","ab","abd","abc","...
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03:53:10 <oerjan> in that case, "list monad"
03:53:54 <elliott> (diff) (hist) . . List of ideas; 03:03 . . (+504) . . Saulrh (Talk | contribs) (→General Ideas - Structifuck and Protofuck: create a spec for object-oriented Brainfuck, then write google protocol buffers using for it.)
03:55:35 <Patashu> Everyone can provide their own implementation of '+'
03:55:51 <Lymee> Object-oriented.....
04:00:22 <pikhq> Insufficiently object.
04:00:54 <pikhq> I simply propose that everything is an object factory.
04:01:46 <oerjan> AdditionServerProxyRequestFactory
04:01:54 <oerjan> (am i doing it right?)
04:02:22 <pikhq> oerjan: Except that you obviously also have an AdditionServerProxyRequestFactoryFactory.
04:02:49 <Patashu> What we need is something to dynamically create factory classes at runtime
04:02:54 <Patashu> Then we don't need to define them all \o/
04:03:31 <pikhq> I think that's called "partial application".
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04:07:16 <itidus20> JustAnotherVirtualmachineApplicationFactory
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04:28:43 <fizzie> They did not "already do"; they made Unity the default, sure, but the old classic Gnome desktop is still an option in 11.04.
04:35:07 <fizzie> Though the "not an option in 11.10" seems to mean that it's not going to be on the CD; I suppose they'll still hae packages for it.
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04:52:56 <Lymee> http://www.4clojure.com/problem/26 < pfft, fail
04:52:58 <Lymee> Cheaty solution is shortest.
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06:37:41 <elliott> i just want to use old versions of netscape and fvwm all day, is that so wrong
06:39:05 <olsner> sounds pretty wrong, yes
06:43:50 <fizzie> My first window manager (IIRC): fvwm95. (Pretty sad.)
06:44:52 <fizzie> If you don't count the rather screwed-up "Workplace Shell" clone for Windows 3.1; http://toastytech.com/guis/wps.html
06:45:06 <fizzie> "It was created because people might find it useful if they used OS/2 and also had to use Windows 3.1, or for people who just wanted to learn about the OS/2 Workplace Shell without having to install OS/2."
06:46:25 <elliott> im so happy for you fizzie
06:48:00 <fizzie> http://fvwm95.sourceforge.net/screenshot-full.gif OH IT LOOKS SO FAMILIAR
06:48:14 <fizzie> The dithered Netscape screen and all.
06:50:08 <pikhq> My first non-DE WM was IceWM, I think.
06:50:33 <pikhq> Still have a soft spot for IceWM, TBH.
06:51:07 <fizzie> I think I went with fvwm95 not because of some conscious choice, but because it was installed I-think-almost-by-default by the Slackware 7-point-something.
06:51:50 <fizzie> Later on Enlightenment was an order of magnitude prettier, but ran too slow on my hardware to really be usable. I can't quite recall what I was using at that point instead.
06:52:20 <fizzie> Window Maker, I think.
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07:34:11 <elliott> oh dear, the Lion installer repartitions the disk
07:36:04 <elliott> yes, im anticipating a horrific upgrade process
07:36:04 <monqy> I forgot about their cat thing
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07:36:24 <elliott> in the meantime I'm entertaining myself by reading the Ars Technica review: "If you can imagine three dials labeled "color," "contrast," and "contour," Apple has been turning them down slowly for years. Lion accelerates that process."
07:36:36 <elliott> more color, contrast and contour, only twenty-nine dollars
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07:37:28 <elliott> "The new look is not a radical departure—everything hasn't gone jet black and grown fur, for example" this review is just gonna be a list of the ways in which apple are going to let me down with this upgrade
07:37:50 <lambdabot> NihilistDandy: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
07:38:02 <elliott> NihilistDandy: Jobs OS Lion
07:38:31 <NihilistDandy> I rather like it. Then again, I've been playing with it since Dev
07:38:31 <elliott> I'm on the less pleasant OS partition of my computer
07:38:37 <elliott> (the one that isn't Linux)
07:39:03 <NihilistDandy> @tell Phantom_Hoover I'm so proud of my meta-dwarf
07:39:28 <elliott> "Finally, there's Apple's budding love affair with a particular linen texture."
07:40:33 <elliott> "Though I can assure you that Lion comes with more than eight applications, you wouldn't know it from looking at this screenshot." but it has chess and a dictionary, why would i need anything else..................
07:40:44 <elliott> why cna't there be only eight applications...............
07:40:48 <elliott> NihilistDandy: im not talking to you :P
07:40:57 <elliott> i'm having an imagined dialogue with sirawhatever
07:41:23 <elliott> "Apple isn't (yet) asking us to start poking our fingers at our Mac's screen" more disappointments
07:41:30 * elliott attacks his screen a few times in protest
07:42:03 <elliott> "Lion further cements the dominance of touch by making all touch-based scrolling work like it does on a touchscreen."
07:42:14 <elliott> "just rebooted into my other OS, time to learn how to scroll again"
07:42:35 <elliott> so I learned next paragraph
07:43:02 <NihilistDandy> I'm not particularly tied to my scrolling direction. I go both ways, as the kids say
07:44:22 <elliott> I wonder how you pirate the retail Lion, a .dmg with the installer .app in it?
07:44:29 <elliott> (Not that I would ever commit such an abhorrent crime, of course.)
07:47:28 <NihilistDandy> I've also decided I'm going to write a MIPS interpreter in Haskell
07:48:10 <elliott> Finally, formal semantics for MIPS
07:49:37 <NihilistDandy> I just need to come up with a pun suitable for hackage
07:49:39 <elliott> I might have a go at it, too
07:50:05 <elliott> NihilistDandy: Are you going to emulate a system, or just have the simulator provide its own syscalls a la JSMIPS?
07:50:07 <Lymee> Build an i386 CPU in Minecraft.
07:50:57 <NihilistDandy> elliott: Not sure, yet, but knowing me it could easily be the former
07:51:46 <elliott> that is one hideous window-opening animation
07:53:24 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/RytKT.png <-- also something has gone terribly wrong with the player controls
07:53:38 <elliott> Infinity:0NaN:0NaN is a good film length
07:54:30 <elliott> god this review really is nineteen pages isn't it
07:55:49 <elliott> http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews/2011/07/mac-os-x-10-7.ars
07:55:57 <elliott> im reading it more out of principle than anything
07:57:22 <elliott> http://static.arstechnica.net/2011/07/04/lion/ical-big.png suddenly i am puking
07:58:05 <Patashu> it's... leather? or something
07:58:12 <elliott> its a fucking leather diary thing
07:58:17 <Patashu> the first OS that vegans can't use
07:58:30 <elliott> i thought brushed metal was bad
07:58:59 <elliott> this reminds me of the first few versions where the pinstripes were like
07:59:04 <NihilistDandy> Or I just have to go an change the damn textures myself
07:59:11 <elliott> and so you couldn't read any window title or toolbar icon or anything
07:59:19 <elliott> NihilistDandy: remember UNO?
08:00:13 <elliott> i love how there was an application designed solely to stop the system having like ten wildly different themes
08:01:18 <NihilistDandy> Apple needs to stop hiring hipsters, or marketing to hipsters, or whatever caused this
08:01:33 <elliott> i love how leopard was like, fuck this, we're using exactly one theme from now on
08:01:43 <elliott> "... hi we have a new theme :D :D :D :D :D :D"
08:01:56 <elliott> and nobody shot them for some reason???
08:02:34 <elliott> i boot into os x only when i need to use something that doesn't run on linux, or when i need to upgrade it
08:02:54 <elliott> NihilistDandy: woo, now _there's_ a change that will have no conceivable effect on me whatsoever
08:02:58 <elliott> hmm, wait, so they ported it to Cocoa?
08:03:16 <elliott> does it still have the fucking window management buttons vertically
08:03:36 <NihilistDandy> And no, the buttons are back to a sensible horizontal
08:03:36 <elliott> i think i'll still avoid opening it for my sanity
08:04:07 <elliott> http://static.arstechnica.net/2011/07/04/lion/address-book.png
08:04:30 <elliott> i didnt know it would be that bad
08:04:49 <NihilistDandy> I mean, many iPad owners don't know what a book is
08:05:12 <elliott> clicking that address book screenshot opens this: http://static.arstechnica.net/2011/07/04/lion/dangerous.html
08:05:53 <elliott> "The three-pane view (groups → people → detail) is gone, presumably because a book can't show three pages at once."
08:07:07 <elliott> on iCal, in March: "That pic has got to be fake, it's waaaaaay to different to the shots/video of DP1."
08:07:44 <elliott> "causes the current desktop picture to recede slightly into the center of the screen, revealing behind it our old friend the linen pattern."
08:09:42 <elliott> "Holding down the option key makes all the icons sprout close widgets as they start to wiggle."
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08:13:35 <Nihilist1andy> And the main benefit to the iTunes 64 bit nonsense is that it stops me having a fit every time I look at System Monitor
08:13:49 <elliott> monqy: dmbarbour rdp reactive demand programming thing
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08:13:59 <monqy> elliott: I forget everything else about it
08:14:18 <elliott> Nihilist1andy: I have a fit when I look at System Monitor because when I do that it means I'm trying to kill something that's about to hang the system because my OS sucks
08:14:56 <elliott> http://static.arstechnica.net/2011/07/04/lion/save-a-version.png
08:15:04 <elliott> THEY STOLE LEADEN'S CORE FEATURE
08:15:15 <Nihilist1andy> I just use it to watch ghc blow up when I do odd things
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08:16:30 <elliott> Nihilist1andy: im glad that the review is basically advocating orthogonal persistence for an entire chapter
08:16:36 <elliott> maybe i'll just throw it at people to convince them
08:17:13 <Nihilist1andy> I'm glad that Ars published a new version of War and Peace that's a little more Cupertino-flavored
08:17:41 <elliott> Nihilist1andy: this is shorter than the average length i think
08:17:47 <elliott> the last one was over twenty pages
08:18:58 <elliott> "the OS may terminate applications that are not in use in order to reclaim resources—primarily memory, but also things like file descriptors, CPU cycles, and processes." yess keep arguing for things i've been arguing for for years
08:19:01 <Taneb> Are you one of them time travelling ubuntu users?
08:19:07 <elliott> WHO'S THE CRACKPOT NOW ASSHOLES...........................
08:19:51 <elliott> Nihilist1andy: Ubuntu users get OMG! Ubuntu!... this is one of the few superior points of OS X
08:19:58 <zzo38> Apparently according to Canadian law, in case of a riot the sheriff or mayor is required to go there if they have received notice, and tell them that the queen has authorized them to be imprisoned for life. However, the punishment for a riot is listed as only two years. Are they trying to confuse everyone?
08:20:46 <Taneb> Them Canadians don't listen to the Queen much
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08:20:53 <Taneb> They're more Rolling Stones fans
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08:22:14 <elliott> Nihilist1andy: stop reproducing
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08:24:08 <NihilistDandy> My irssi bouncer and my head client appear to have been fighting after my connection died, there
08:25:01 <elliott> "The previous release of Mac OS X focused on internal changes. My review did the same, covering compiler features, programming language extensions, new libraries, and other details that were mostly invisible to end-users." <-- i remember that, it was a nice review
08:25:10 <elliott> like he talked about clang for at least a chapter
08:25:23 <elliott> to an audience the vast majority of which has probably never written a single line of code in their life
08:26:13 <NihilistDandy> So it's like reddit, only it's just a single voice
08:26:54 <elliott> "Lion includes a trusted daemon process called Powerbox (pboxd) whose job is to present and control open/save dialog boxes on behalf of sandboxed applications."
08:27:06 <elliott> i sure wish os x didn't suck or i'd be happy that someone is finally listening to good ideas
08:27:17 <elliott> "Oh, and in case it doesn't go without saying, all sandboxed applications must be signed."
08:28:03 <pikhq> ... *Why* would you require sandboxed applications to be signed, exactly?
08:28:17 <pikhq> Surely, surely sandboxing makes that even *less* useful.
08:28:21 <Taneb> So you can get developer's autographs?
08:28:23 <elliott> because jobs must controleverything [insert picture of steve jobs with horns]
08:28:36 <pikhq> Ah, right, Jobs thinks the iPhone is the future of computing.
08:28:40 <Taneb> You know what's fun?
08:28:49 <Taneb> Asking random people for their autographs
08:29:03 <pikhq> When, at *best*, it's the future of small-device touchscreen UIs.
08:29:08 <elliott> you're way too social, get out
08:29:32 <elliott> pikhq: the iPhone, probably not; the iPad... well, it's closer than current desktop PCs
08:29:46 <pikhq> elliott: I did say "at best".
08:29:46 <monqy> tthe future is a bad place
08:29:51 <elliott> "Apple has decreed that all applications submitted to the Mac App Store must be sandboxed, starting in November."
08:30:11 <Taneb> The only way to find out what the future's like is to go there
08:30:14 <elliott> pikhq: I meant re computing
08:30:42 <elliott> "What a developer can do instead is isolate the video decoding task in its own process with severely reduced privileges. A process that's decoding video probably doesn't need any access to the file system, the network, the built-in camera and microphone, and so on. It just needs to accept a stream of bytes from its parent process (which, in turn, probably used Powerbox to gain the ability to read those bytes from disk in the first pla
08:30:43 <elliott> ce) and return a stream of decoded bytes. Beyond this simple connection to its parent, the decoder can be completely walled off from the rest of the system."
08:30:49 <pikhq> elliott: Ah. Yeah, the iPad is probably *closer*, but it feels almost like for every step forward they made a step back.
08:30:58 <elliott> FUCKIN' FUNCTIONAL SUPERIORITY SLAM DUNK
08:31:36 <pikhq> "Hmm. Some amount of orthogonal persistence... But you don't own the machine!"
08:31:45 <elliott> i never knew i needed a lambda shaped electric guitar in my life until now
08:31:51 <elliott> NihilistDandy i am going to start a band
08:32:05 <pikhq> "Nice UI, but YOU NO GET COMPILER"
08:32:15 <fizzie> elliott: Is it just me, or have you not been sleeping again?
08:32:24 <Patashu> I'll bring the ellipses shaped drumkit
08:32:50 <elliott> fizzie: I've not been awake for very long.
08:32:59 <elliott> Less than fifteen hours, that's for certain.
08:33:06 <elliott> I'm just this cool all the time.
08:33:16 <elliott> NihilistDandy: OK DO YOU WANT TO JOIN.
08:33:27 <elliott> You need to play an instrument shaped like some kind of ... thing.
08:33:44 <elliott> Monadic bind xylophone????
08:34:12 <Taneb> Identity function microphone?
08:34:12 <elliott> Like, two lines of keys oriented vertically going diagonally that meet and then go horizontally
08:34:21 <elliott> Except split into two when they meet I guess
08:34:29 <elliott> NihilistDandy: A... symmetrical triangle?
08:34:49 <Patashu> <=> Can this be made into an instrument
08:35:12 <elliott> We're called the Knights of the Lambda Calculus, no arguments.
08:35:20 <elliott> I guess the real Knights might sue us but who cares.
08:35:55 <NihilistDandy> Alternatively, theremin built into a frame with some shape
08:36:19 <NihilistDandy> Would we not rock them purely and without side effects?
08:36:30 <elliott> oh my god this is the best worst thing
08:37:13 <lambdabot> forall a b b1 c. ((a, b) -> b1 -> c) -> a -> b -> b1 -> c
08:37:25 <elliott> Clearly we have to cover http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM1Zb3xmvMc.
08:38:48 <NihilistDandy> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLLDWw7r3nQ&feature=related
08:39:10 <Patashu> It is imperative that you listen to my band
08:39:36 <NihilistDandy> Patashu: WE ARE BUSY CONSTRUCTING A NEWTYPE OF AWESOME
08:41:47 <elliott> As soon as you sellouts play at RailsConf I'm quitting.
08:42:21 <Patashu> The first track on the album should be called Cons
08:42:54 <Lymee> @type uncurry. curry
08:42:54 <lambdabot> forall a b c. ((a, b) -> c) -> (a, b) -> c
08:43:08 <NihilistDandy> elliott: The headlines will read "eta reduction" as our record sales climb
08:44:07 <NihilistDandy> I equate lambda expressions with obscurity, for this metaphor
08:44:55 <elliott> he's explaining how you can't do precise garbage collection for C
08:45:02 <elliott> because of the untypedness of memory
08:45:16 <elliott> educate the masses....educate.....
08:46:05 <elliott> siracusa, the review-writer
08:47:32 <elliott> "To ensure that ARC can do what it's designed to do in a correct manner, a few additional language restrictions have been added. Most of them are esoteric, existing on the boundaries between Objective-C and plain C code (e.g., C structs and unions are not allowed to contain references to Objective-C objects)."
08:47:46 <elliott> now the reverse just has to happen and they'll have two entirely separate data models :D
08:47:59 <elliott> oh it's per-compilation-unit
08:49:37 <Patashu> The address book in lion is literally a book
08:50:02 <elliott> Patashu: welcome to five pages up :P
08:51:01 <fizzie> At least the videoconferencing app doesn't look like a phone. (Cf. http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/phone.htm )
08:53:31 <elliott> "and to top it off, normal Objective-C message sending is 33 percent faster."
08:53:38 <elliott> how have they not eked every last bit of performance out of that code path yet?
08:53:46 <elliott> I know it involves looking up a string in a hash table, but c'mon...
08:53:56 <fizzie> And the CD player probably doesn't look like http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/realcd.htm either; I've forgotten what it looks like if you try to play an audio CD in OS X.
08:54:52 <elliott> fizzie: I note that QuickTime four is also on that site :-P
08:55:04 <elliott> "Furthermore, ARC does very little to address the other pillar of modern, high-level programming: memory safety."
08:55:12 <elliott> i wonder if most people reading this review just skip this section
08:57:42 <monqy> the only arc I know is that lisp dialect paul graham's was it whatever happened to that
08:57:42 <elliott> monqy: automatic reference counting
08:57:53 <elliott> it continues to suck to the present day
08:58:13 <monqy> yeah I never really understood the point
08:58:42 <elliott> "When searching for unused nodes in a b-tree file, Apple's HFS+ implementation processes the data 16 bits at a time."
08:58:46 <elliott> i cant believe os x still uses hfs+
08:58:57 <elliott> "All HFS+ file system metadata read from the disk must be byte swapped because it's stored in big-endian form."
08:59:18 <elliott> (ok ok so actually [dunno how to type an at symbol without number keys on os x] has this too)
08:59:21 <Taneb> Is wirefunge going to use the entire of Unicode?
08:59:28 <elliott> (because the on-disk format has to be platform-independent)
08:59:44 <Patashu> I can't think of enough uses anyway
08:59:48 <elliott> "File system metadata structures in HFS+ have global locks. Only one process can update the file system at a time"
09:00:05 <Patashu> though being able to embed a circuit in one cell and have it link to another file that implements the circuit wolud be nice
09:00:51 <elliott> "Some of those features were an easy fit, but others were very difficult to add to the file system without breaking backwards compatibility. One particularly scary example is the implementation of hard links on HFS+. To keep track of hard links, HFS+ creates a separate file for each hard link inside a hidden directory at the root level of the volume. Hidden directories are kind of creepy to begin with, but the real scare comes when yo
09:00:51 <elliott> u remember that Time Machine is implemented using hard links to avoid unnecessary data duplication.
09:00:51 <elliott> Listing the contents of this hidden directory (named "HFS+ Private Data", but with a bunch of non-printing characters preceding the "H") on my Time Machine backup volume reveals that it contains 573,127 files. B-trees or no b-trees, over half a million files in a single directory makes me nervous."
09:03:14 <elliott> "The biggest is the introduction of Apple's first real crack at creating a logical volume manager: Core Storage."
09:03:45 <elliott> "At the very top level is the Logical Volume Group, which may contain one or more Physical Volumes. A Physical Volume provides storage; it may be a single physical disk, a disk image file, or even a RAID device. A Logical Volume Group exports zero or more Logical Volume Families. A Logical Volume Family contains one or more Logical Volumes, each of which presents a blank canvas onto which—finally!—a volume format like HFS+ may res
09:03:48 <Vorpal> <elliott> (because the on-disk format has to be platform-independent) <-- presumably this is the case for ext4 and so on too on some platforms
09:03:53 <elliott> Vorpal: isn't this just lvm terminology lifted directly :D
09:04:06 <elliott> Vorpal: also, yeah, but for [at] it's more pronounced
09:04:17 <elliott> Vorpal: because, e.g. every integer, pointer, in every stored object, must be in one format
09:04:37 <elliott> whereas file content can be whatever on a (big|little|whichever it is)-endian ext platform
09:04:42 <Vorpal> elliott, I think apple added "logical volume families" step
09:05:06 <Vorpal> elliott, LVM is just "volume group made out of physical volumes, from those volume groups you allocate logical volumes"
09:05:16 <Vorpal> apple has at least one extra step of indirection there
09:05:17 <elliott> "Lion's FileVault doesn't just encrypt users' home directories, and it doesn't use encrypted disk image files. Instead, it's Apple's implementation of whole disk encryption. This means that every byte of data that makes up the volume is encrypted. Furthermore, this encryption is completely transparent to all software (including the implementation of HFS+ itself) because it takes place at a layer above the volume format—a layer that
09:05:17 <elliott> application software does not see at all."
09:06:13 <elliott> http://static.arstechnica.net/2011/07/04/lion/file-vault-recovery-key.png
09:06:14 <elliott> http://static.arstechnica.net/2011/07/04/lion/file-vault-apple-recovery-key.png
09:06:25 <elliott> so it constructs a private key where the password is the combination of the questions and answers, I guess
09:06:29 <elliott> then encrypts the key with it
09:06:34 <elliott> and throws away the questions and answers
09:06:50 <NihilistDandy> Is FileVault finally unshitty enough to actually use is the question
09:07:07 <Vorpal> elliott, ugh, fixed easy security questions suck
09:07:19 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm just talking about the mechanism
09:07:24 <elliott> NihilistDandy: It's entirely reimplemented, so yes
09:07:33 <Vorpal> elliott, well they have fixed stupidly easy security questions there...
09:07:34 <elliott> NihilistDandy: There can't be any compatibility problems because it's transparent
09:07:50 <Vorpal> elliott, what algorithm does filevault use on the disk
09:08:01 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm talking about the mechanism by which Apple prevents themselves from being able to have your decryption key
09:08:18 <elliott> Also :D at the Clarus reference in that screenshot
09:08:27 <elliott> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogcow for those not in the know)
09:08:41 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, that is not very specific
09:09:00 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, aes-cbc-essiv?
09:09:07 <elliott> "Like any talented dog, it can do flips. Like any talented cow, it can do precision bitmap alignment." so good
09:09:20 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, I mean I can query my disk under linux and get that it uses aes-cbc-essiv:sha256 on my laptop
09:09:29 <Vorpal> (device-mapper, crypsetup)
09:10:19 <elliott> Vorpal: please don't do your standard "LOL [PIECE OF NON-OPEN SOFTWARE] ISN'T OPEN HOW WEIRD" routine :P
09:10:20 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, I wouldn't trust it if apple doesn't tell what mode they use aes in
09:10:43 <elliott> Vorpal: You wouldn't trust OS X for anything in a million years, so that statement is misleading.
09:10:46 <Vorpal> elliott, while I doubt they would use AES in counter mode, they should specify what mode they use
09:10:54 <elliott> OK, or just keep trolling.
09:11:01 <elliott> http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews/2011/07/mac-os-x-10-7.ars/13
09:11:04 <Vorpal> elliott, for cryptography it is very important to be open, so people can trust you
09:11:05 <elliott> Vorpal: Grep /CoreStorage logical volume groups (1 found)/ and shut up
09:13:53 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, complicated, depends on how they do the key as far as I understood it. Which I don't see any info about ther
09:14:03 <elliott> Haha, did he really just paste a SQLite schema into one of the most widely-read OS X reviews on the internet
09:14:19 <elliott> http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews/2011/07/mac-os-x-10-7.ars/14
09:15:29 <fizzie> This Mozilla technology evangelist guy (who's talking about doing multimeeediatic stuff in the interwebs; this is one of the Assembly 2011 seminar things) says "which is particularly exciting" of every sort of technology he's presenting.
09:15:44 <fizzie> I guess if your job title is "technology evangelist" you sort of have to be excited about everything.
09:19:11 <elliott> "Imagine taking a dish out of the dishwasher and then having it start flopping around like a fish in your hand."
09:19:15 <fizzie> Mostly it's just about WebGL.
09:20:06 <Taneb> Patashu: can I make a feature request for Wirefunge?
09:20:26 <elliott> NihilistDandy: Does the Finder really open in All My Files by default rather than the home directory?
09:20:44 <Vorpal> elliott, I can't believe apple is using sqlite for any sort of largish db
09:21:11 <Vorpal> elliott, because sqlite scales badly in my experience
09:21:13 <elliott> SQLite is incredibly well-written and I haven't heard anything concrete about it scaling badly.
09:21:28 <elliott> "in my experience" is not really worth much, I doubt you've done a tenth of the testing they have :)
09:21:35 <Vorpal> elliott, okay, lets say it doesn't scale as good as postgre then
09:21:42 <elliott> Obviously it doesn't work well in multiple-user situations but that's irrelevant here
09:22:09 <elliott> Vorpal: That's RAM and CPU being used all the time.
09:22:14 <NihilistDandy> I think the server tools come with postgres now instead of MySQL
09:22:19 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway computers are multi-user. Even if there is only one interactive human user, there are many daemons
09:22:22 <elliott> For a probably unnoticeable performance increase.
09:22:28 <elliott> Vorpal: They're not causing revisions to be made
09:22:35 <elliott> That's an act a human does by definition
09:23:08 <elliott> 10:18 elliott: "Imagine taking a dish out of the dishwasher and then having it start flopping around like a fish in your hand."
09:23:10 <elliott> this is a quote from the review btw
09:24:08 <elliott> "Aesthetically speaking, the Finder, like the rest of Lion, has been visited by the color vampire."
09:25:28 <elliott> the redesigned Mail looks nice
09:25:31 <elliott> and finally has conversations
09:26:30 <elliott> "Or rather, look at how much of the surrounding interface isn't there." Look how much code I'm NOT writing!
09:26:41 <elliott> (Apologies if you get the reference.)
09:27:43 <elliott> I was referring to the insufferable Rails screencast of two-thousand-and-five yore.
09:27:58 <elliott> NihilistDandy: Also, is that accordion effect as annoying as it looks?
09:28:04 <NihilistDandy> I mean that's what Agda people say when they switch from Haskell :D
09:28:33 <elliott> If you're writing less code in Agda than in Haskell... then you were doing horrible things to Haskell. :p
09:28:36 <NihilistDandy> *because no one ever writes any Agda, they just talk about it
09:28:39 <elliott> NihilistDandy: On expanding quotes in Mail
09:28:50 <elliott> Hmm, wait, does Mail actually support gmail-style conversations now?
09:29:24 <NihilistDandy> elliott: Re accordion, it's not annoying so much as twee
09:29:40 <elliott> Twee is a synonym for annoying :P
09:29:52 <elliott> Oh thank god, the Downloads window is gone.
09:30:18 <NihilistDandy> elliott: Right, but god help you if you want to look at your downloads without an entire Safari window open
09:30:29 <elliott> When do you ever not have an entire Safari window open
09:31:06 <elliott> Oh sweet, Terminal supports full-screen mode; now everybody can forget that the rest of the OS exists
09:32:13 <elliott> Yay, they've moved around the System Preferences icons again
09:32:17 <elliott> I'd almost had them memorised
09:33:31 <Lymee> elliott, doesn't support text mode?
09:33:51 <Lymee> Why full screen terminal instead of just not starting up the GUI. =p
09:33:57 <elliott> http://static.arstechnica.net/2011/07/04/lion/system-preferences-time-zone.png Well that's an ugly square
09:34:05 <elliott> Lymee: Well, text editing, for one :-P
09:34:10 <elliott> NihilistDandy: You have to start in single-user mode, though
09:34:32 <elliott> http://static.arstechnica.net/2011/07/04/lion/auto-correction.png
09:35:00 <elliott> NihilistDandy: That sounds like a nice security hole
09:35:28 <elliott> s/super user/single user/?
09:35:45 <elliott> http://static.arstechnica.net/2011/07/04/lion/lock-screen-big.png Well, that's certainly the prettiest lock screen I've seen today
09:36:09 <elliott> "FACE WITH NO GOOD GESTURE (U+1F645); MOON VIEWING CEREMONY (U+1F391); PILE OF POO (U+1F4A9)" <-- good image caption
09:36:39 <elliott> NihilistDandy: Do the emojis work in any application that displays Unicode text via the usual mechanisms?
09:36:44 <elliott> Can you send them OVER IRC??
09:36:50 <elliott> Do it now, send us a pile of poo.
09:37:06 <elliott> http://static.arstechnica.net/2011/07/04/lion/emoji.png
09:37:20 <elliott> http://static.arstechnica.net/2011/07/04/lion/terminal-blur.png Caption: "I want to know what's behind my terminal window, but I don't want to know every detail."
09:37:36 <elliott> "Just... gimme a VAGUE IDEA of what's behind here."
09:37:47 <fizzie> Ubuntu 11.10's swapping from GDM to LightDM for the login screen; wonder if it's really going to look any different.
09:37:52 <elliott> "Terminal also—finally—supports 256 text colors with its new xterm-256color terminal type." Man, it still hasn't had them?
09:38:01 <elliott> NihilistDandy: Nice square
09:38:04 <elliott> NihilistDandy: Work for you?
09:38:10 <elliott> fizzie: "LightDM is a cross-desktop display manager that aims is to be the standard display manager for the X.org X server."
09:38:17 <elliott> fizzie: Oh, freedesktop.org; does your hubris know no bounds?
09:38:32 <cheater> fizzie: i'm fknthrilled for 11.10
09:38:34 <fizzie> Well of course they "aim" to be the standard everything of everything.
09:38:35 <elliott> They could release literally any piece of software and say it should be the standard forever.
09:39:00 <elliott> "fknthrilled": experts say, not strictly a word.
09:39:10 <fizzie> [01F4A5] (or something) as rendered by XChat.
09:39:22 <cheater> innovation is often made by amateurs.
09:39:23 <monqy> fkn- is totally a prefix
09:39:37 <fizzie> (At least it manages to put non-BMP characters in a bigger-than-four-digits box.)
09:39:43 <elliott> Which amateur is innovating again
09:40:07 <cheater> as opposed to you being a breeze, yeah.
09:40:08 <elliott> fizzie: That sort of looks like a pile of poo.
09:40:09 <NihilistDandy> Does Font Book still suck according to the article?
09:40:28 <Taneb> I'm going to call PINs Personal PIN Numbers that Identify you
09:40:31 <elliott> http://static.arstechnica.net/2011/07/04/lion/system-info-overview.png Well, umm, that's certainly a pretty System Profiler, I guess
09:40:50 <elliott> http://static.arstechnica.net/2011/07/04/lion/system-info-storage.png Not sure what inspired that colour scheme
09:41:32 <fizzie> elliott: If you hit the case with a hammer, does it show the resulting bump in that System Profiler picture?
09:41:38 <elliott> More good captioning: "Unfilled RAM slots are sinful. I am ashamed."
09:41:48 <elliott> fizzie: Yes. (If we do not test it, we can continue to believe.)
09:42:10 <elliott> "Want an eBook or PDF copy? Support Ars and it's yours."
09:42:16 <elliott> Yes, I definitely want an eBook copy of this review.
09:42:20 <elliott> I will enjoy it time and time again.
09:42:44 <NihilistDandy> I WILL PASS THIS FILE ONTO MY GRANDCHILDREN WHEN THEY ARE OLD ENOUGH
09:44:59 <elliott> "Mainstream reviews of software and hardware alike spend far less time pondering technical specifications and implementation details than they did only a few years ago."
09:45:06 <elliott> I guess I'm definitely not reading a mainstream review, then
09:45:13 <elliott> "This phenomenon extends even to the geekiest among us, those who didn't just skip to the conclusion of this review but actually read the entire thing."
09:46:22 <elliott> NihilistDandy: Hahaha, it really forces you to prove you know how to scroll in the new way before letting you in
09:46:41 <elliott> "Okay, got i-" "I DON'T BELIEVE YOU. SCROLL FOR ME, CHILD."
09:47:02 <NihilistDandy> `addquote <elliott> "Okay, got i-" "I DON'T BELIEVE YOU. SCROLL FOR ME, CHILD."
09:47:06 <HackEgo> 564) <elliott> "Okay, got i-" "I DON'T BELIEVE YOU. SCROLL FOR ME, CHILD."
09:47:33 <monqy> what's this new scrolling thing is it good
09:47:55 <monqy> hlep i dont'e know aht that is helep
09:48:05 <elliott> http://static.arstechnica.net/2011/07/18/lion_finder_airdrop-4e24a31-intro.png THE POWERFUL SPHERE OF HARRIET
09:48:12 <elliott> monqy: up is down down is up
09:48:18 <elliott> true is false,,,,,, two is nine,,,,
09:48:28 <monqy> why woudle thye do thate
09:48:56 <elliott> NihilistDandy: mine was new but then they came out with a new model seven months later,,,,, assholes,
09:49:37 <monqy> are scrollbares inverted tooe
09:49:52 <elliott> ill invert ur scrollbar . com
09:51:24 <zzo38> Apparently paintball games are technically illegal in Canada. Does anyone care?
09:52:11 <monqy> paintball always makes me think
09:52:14 <monqy> extreme paintbrawl
09:52:18 <monqy> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li5mXnHyg9w
09:52:36 <monqy> best music best game
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09:53:05 <elliott> "tabs please?" "Are you serious? Drag your fingers across the frets and cluck like a chicken."
09:53:17 <Vorpal> <elliott> http://static.arstechnica.net/2011/07/18/lion_finder_airdrop-4e24a31-intro.png THE POWERFUL SPHERE OF HARRIET <-- ad-hoc wlan? or bluetooth?
09:53:28 <elliott> Vorpal: radiant sun energy
09:53:37 <elliott> (visualised by bands of holiness)
09:53:38 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, wlan or bluetooth
09:53:53 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_Paintbrawl
09:53:57 <elliott> monqy: is it as good as it looks
09:54:01 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, then any card supporting ad-hoc should work
09:54:19 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, but it would also disconnect you from any network you were currently connected to
09:54:24 <monqy> elliott: confession time i have never played extreme paintbrawl
09:54:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
09:54:53 <elliott> I now have the most glorious mental image of a paintball fight taking place in a barnyard with Frosty the Snowman systematically violating all the animals with akimbo electric banjos, and all of this is in a Benny Hill-style fast-forwarded scene with several dancing hillbillies and a single Mariachi in the background.
09:54:53 <elliott> I am sincerely disappointed that I cannot convey this image through this text box. It's fucking fantastic. Probably make a great mural."
09:55:24 <Vorpal> <NihilistDandy> AirDrop operates differently, apparently <-- ouch, non-standard?
09:56:06 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, what does it let you do? share files?
09:56:10 <elliott> Vorpal: Radiant sun orbs are very standard
09:56:27 <NihilistDandy> http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/11/03/10/inside_mac_os_x_10_7_lion_airdrop_local_file_sharing.html
09:56:38 <elliott> NihilistDandy: I wonder how long until the zoom button on windows disappears
09:56:49 <elliott> It does a pretty bad job of automatically sizing things
09:56:57 <elliott> And with the magic wonder full-screen zoom button thing...
09:57:36 <elliott> I guess the zoom button will take its place, because just having two capsules on the left is really weird... except that that destroys the fact that the button to undo it is in the same place
09:57:45 <elliott> And also undoes any conditioning of users
09:57:56 <elliott> Maybe the buttons will move to the right side :O :O :O
09:58:17 <elliott> And get the same embossed look, I guess
09:58:35 <elliott> Or maybe minimised windows will just stop existing :-P
09:58:59 <elliott> That at least has the nice sort of consistency that you could have an embossed X on the left to close, an embossed zoom-thing on the right, and nothing else
09:59:03 <elliott> Kind of inconvenient though
09:59:10 <NihilistDandy> As it happens, you can now set minized windows to disappear "in" the app on the Dock
09:59:18 <elliott> But hey, if Apple are dedicated to this orthogonal persistence thing, then you can just call the window up again if you need it again, who needs minimised windows?
10:04:02 <NihilistDandy> When I accidentally hit Cmd-Q in Safari, it doesn't bother asking me if that's okay since I have all this shit open
10:05:43 <elliott> NihilistDandy: It should do the minimising animation, except every single window goes into the icon :-D
10:05:55 <elliott> Actually, if it was fast enough, that would be a good cue, assuming it's the zoom minimise animation rather than the unbearable genie
10:06:09 <elliott> Since it's literally the same as Cmd-Q now
10:06:32 <elliott> A windows move into Dock icon/windows burst out of Dock icon model seems like the best way to analogise it
10:06:35 <elliott> I'd just alias Cmd-H to Cmd-Q
10:07:46 <elliott> YES I READ THAT IN THE REVIEW
10:08:37 <elliott> So when are they going to fix real issues like the Dock being fucking hideous
10:09:20 <elliott> Not another QuickSilver clone
10:10:01 <elliott> NihilistDandy: QS is actively developed.
10:10:05 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
10:10:37 <elliott> Quicksilver is now developed by a team of volunteers with work on the open source project increasing throughout 2010.[3]
10:10:37 <elliott> In November 2009, development shifted to using GitHub.[4]
10:10:37 <elliott> At the end of 2010, a new website QSApp.com was launched, with the aim of unifying and collating all of Quicksilver's fragmented builds, plugins and support groups. Since its launch, the site has included a new Plugins Repository, Wiki and Downloads section. After several months of development, Quicksilver version β59 was released; a marked point in the history of the application.
10:11:10 <elliott> Dunno if it's improved much, mind — it used to be so crashy.
10:11:54 <Vorpal> elliott, what is quicksilver now again... the name sounds familiar?
10:12:20 <elliott> It's sort of like an object-oriented linguistic user interface.
10:12:28 <elliott> Most of the time it's just used as a launcher. :p
10:13:23 <Vorpal> hm so AirDrop is vendor specific. That is rather stupid of apple I think.
10:13:33 <Vorpal> iphone + windows can't be too uncommon
10:13:45 <Vorpal> and if iphone gets airdrop...
10:14:05 <elliott> Have you seen what happens when Apple try to write Windows applications?
10:14:17 <Vorpal> elliott, not in person no
10:14:40 <elliott> QuickTime is one of the most-hated pieces of crapware on Windows.
10:14:57 <elliott> NihilistDandy: I wish I could turn off mouse acceleration and make my trackpad absolute-positioned.
10:15:03 <Vorpal> elliott, my point was that apple would probably gain more from using some technology for airdrop that would also work under windows
10:15:20 <Vorpal> sure, maybe not as well-integrated sure... but would at least work
10:15:24 <elliott> Apple don't care much about Windows users.
10:15:41 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, isn't iphone + windows a very common combo?
10:15:47 <Vorpal> more than iphone + mac possibly
10:15:53 <NihilistDandy> Windows users, on the other hand, care very much about Mac users and their stupid smug faces
10:15:59 <Vorpal> elliott, they just ignore that market segment?
10:16:02 <elliott> They get to suffer through iTunes for Windows.
10:16:22 <elliott> iTunes is pretty much the only Windows application Apple cares about. I don't even know why they ported Safari.
10:16:24 <Vorpal> elliott, how comes iphones still sell
10:16:36 <elliott> Vorpal: Because other phones suck that much more.
10:16:41 <elliott> And, well, you only need iTunes for syncing.
10:16:45 <Vorpal> elliott, android is worse?
10:16:56 <elliott> Vorpal: Android is... well, getting better.
10:17:07 <zzo38> I have idea I wanted to make up some programming language that can do a few things including implement rules of Magic: the Gathering cards. I have a few ideas about it, including:
10:17:13 <zzo38> * First class functions and first class rules
10:17:27 <elliott> My current solution to the problem of either buying a bad phone or contributing to the complete downfall of any kind of computing freedom is to... not use a phone.
10:17:30 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, for windows integration?
10:17:49 <fizzie> Another place in the interwebs says they support AirDrop only on hardware that has firmware that can do infrastructure and the AirDrop-used ad-hoc mode simultaneously.
10:17:58 <elliott> 11:16 NihilistDandy: I want an @phone
10:18:04 <zzo38> * Basic types: boolean, integer, static strings (usable only for comparison and that C codes can use directly)
10:18:06 <elliott> I was going to mumble something about hardware requirements.
10:18:10 <elliott> But, umm, phones are pretty fast aren't they.
10:18:16 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, at least android can run java and flash, unlike iphone
10:18:31 <zzo38> * Other types: enumeration, tagged union, structure, function
10:18:32 <elliott> Vorpal: Says the guy who doesn't use Flash.
10:18:39 <elliott> Anyway, Flash support on phones is laughable.
10:18:41 <fizzie> They have quad-core phones either out or coming-out-soonishly.
10:18:42 <elliott> It's the laggiest piece of shit imaginable.
10:18:47 <fizzie> Dual-core ones they do at least have.
10:18:54 <elliott> And... um, Java doesn't even exist any more for desktop applications.
10:18:56 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed, but I know a lot of people do, which is what I'm talking about
10:19:00 <elliott> Minecraft is the only Java program anyone uses.
10:19:05 <zzo38> * Function types are allowed to include themself or types including themself
10:19:13 <Vorpal> elliott, I do not consider myself the typical case here
10:19:18 <NihilistDandy> HTML5 video players abound, and you don't need Flash games
10:19:19 <elliott> Vorpal: Well that's a change ;-)
10:19:33 <elliott> NihilistDandy: You do need Flash games, you definitely do.
10:19:39 <Vorpal> elliott, I know I would be most happy with something meego-based :P
10:19:39 <elliott> iOS is just big enough to get them ported ;-)
10:20:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah, MeeGo is totally dead.
10:20:11 <elliott> It just hasn't realised that yet.
10:20:20 <zzo38> * Procedural rulebooks
10:20:49 <Vorpal> <NihilistDandy> HTML5 video players abound, and you don't need Flash games <-- no one can agree on the format for the video though
10:20:52 <zzo38> * Rulebooks specifying reading/writing properties of an object
10:21:22 <elliott> I really wish they'd just release the patents to H.twosixfour and stop being jackasses.
10:21:41 <NihilistDandy> Vorpal: Just because there's a hostage taker in the house doesn't mean you don't have a favorite child.
10:21:47 <Vorpal> elliott, I forgot who "they" are here
10:22:15 <Vorpal> how is that relevant!?
10:22:29 <zzo38> * External access to/from C codes and other program
10:22:30 <elliott> Vorpal: A bunch of people.
10:22:45 <fizzie> The "audio data" API (that lets you actually do stuff to it realtime, instead of just doing playback of existing samples like the HTML5 <audio> element) is completely unstandardized still, and only supported by Firefox and Chrome (and I think they do it differently too).
10:22:46 <NihilistDandy> I can't decide if Apple or Google or Mozilla or whoever is the hostage taker
10:22:51 <elliott> Vorpal: VCEG/ISO/IEC/MPEG.
10:23:08 <elliott> Vorpal: Apple just use it.
10:23:22 <Vorpal> elliott, are you saying ISO and IEC owns patents on it?
10:24:01 <elliott> In countries where patents on software algorithms are upheld, vendors and commercial users of products that use H.264/AVC are expected to pay patent licensing royalties for the patented technology[7] that their products use. This applies to the Baseline Profile as well.[8] A private organization known as MPEG LA, which is not affiliated in any way with the MPEG standardization organization, administers the licenses for patents applyin
10:24:01 <elliott> g to this standard, as well as the patent pools for MPEG-2 Part 1 Systems, MPEG-2 Part 2 Video, MPEG-4 Part 2 Video, and other technologies. The MPEG-LA patents in the US last at least until 2027.[9]
10:24:07 <elliott> MPEG-LA are the relevant people here, I suppose.
10:24:19 <fizzie> "MPEG LA, LLC, is a Denver-based firm that licenses patent pools covering essential patents required[1][2] for use of the MPEG-2,[3] MPEG-4 Visual (Part 2), IEEE 1394, VC-1, ATSC and AVC/H.264 standards. The firm is also working towards pooled licensing of LTE patents pertaining to 4th generation cellular telephony and patents essential for WebM."
10:24:19 <Vorpal> question: how do you change the sound card firefox uses to play the sound in html5 videos?
10:24:35 <elliott> Yeah, Apple hold relveant patents, it seems
10:24:46 <elliott> Vorpal: Abstraction leak error, surely?
10:24:53 <elliott> Whatever Firefox outputs to is what decides what soundcard to use
10:25:06 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah, hm what decides that
10:25:20 <Vorpal> elliott, for various reason I don't use the mess known as pulse audio.
10:25:24 <fizzie> "The following organizations hold one or more patents in the H.264/AVC patent pool. [list of everyone -- 26 companies]" -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG_LA
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10:26:15 <elliott> fizzie: I'm surprised MPEG isn't upset with them using the name.
10:27:28 <fizzie> Ubuntu's firefox package depends on libasound2 and nothing else very sound-like, so I suppose it speaks to ALSA.
10:27:45 <fizzie> If so, then I suppose it should respect the ALSA_BLAH envvars.
10:28:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah. I'm on firefox 5 or whatever on arch though, guess I'll check the deps there
10:28:32 <fizzie> Well, that was the Firefox 5 package.
10:28:45 <fizzie> But I suppose it could support other audio output things too, depending on how it gets built.
10:29:00 <Vorpal> huh, nothing soundy at all
10:29:34 <elliott> Different package, perhaps?
10:29:44 <Vorpal> oh xulrunner depends on alsa-libs
10:30:08 <Vorpal> firefox -> mozilla-common -> xulrunner -> alsa-lib
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10:45:15 <coppro> So I was interested in looking at Agda. I am no longer.
10:46:14 <elliott> Too much mathematics 'n shit
10:46:37 <elliott> coppro: Oh noes, a language with editor support
10:46:43 <elliott> How dare they make it more convenient to use for users of emacs
10:46:53 <coppro> I have no issues with language support
10:47:06 <coppro> I have issues with "compile your program with C-c C-x C-c"
10:47:36 <coppro> I can spend my time better than try to decipher that
10:48:08 <coppro> this is like those C++ tutorials that start with "first, install <IDE>"
10:48:24 <elliott> Generally tutorials don't cater to uncommon masochistic situation
10:48:38 <elliott> Like not using the interactive proof system
10:48:40 <elliott> Which is what agda-mode is
10:48:55 <elliott> They could have written their own program to do that from scratch
10:49:01 <elliott> And thus alienate users of EVERY editor
10:49:06 <elliott> And also give themselves ten times as much work
10:49:12 <elliott> And have to reinvent the wheel pointlessly
10:49:15 <elliott> That'd be great, wouldn't it?
10:49:42 -!- Lymee has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
10:49:46 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
10:50:15 <coppro> elliott: As I said, I have better things to do with my time than learn emacs
10:50:44 <elliott> coppro: So instead of learning a text editor that you can use in other situations as well, you would like to learn a completely new text editor?
10:50:55 <elliott> Like I said, you need an interactive proof system to use such languages comfortably.
10:51:07 <elliott> The only thing not using Emacs results in is: a lot more work; more alienation; and no transferrable skills.
10:51:11 <elliott> WOOOOOOO SO MANY ADVANTAGEEEEEEEEES
10:51:26 <coppro> elliott: except I already have a text editor I can use in most situations in vim
10:51:43 <elliott> coppro: Congratulations, you fail at basic reading comprehension.
10:51:46 <coppro> elliott: if I desperately needed an interactive proof system then perhaps emacs would be the correct choice
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10:51:54 <elliott> coppro: You do need an interactive proof system to use Agda effectively.
10:51:58 <elliott> Or any dependently-typed language.
10:52:06 <elliott> If you think you don't, well, what the fuck do you know? You gave up at the first hurdle.
10:55:17 <coppro> elliott: well, for starters, a quick glance at Coq says that I can play with it more easily than Agda outside an interactive system more easily, which is all I want at this stage. If I go on to want an interactive system, if I'm still just playing around, I don't want features I want speed, and emacs has a fucking learning curve
10:56:07 <elliott> coppro: Umm, Coq is used via Proof General (nicer) or coqtop (interactive command-line system).
10:56:23 <elliott> I know of not a single person who develops Coq outside of one of these, because it would be simply impossible.
10:56:36 <elliott> Unless you have a perfect memory and also a built-in logical system.
10:56:41 <elliott> In which case... congratulations, you don't need Coq.
10:57:03 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, every single Coq tutorial I've seen uses Coqtop.
10:57:04 <elliott> coppro: And if you really think that Emacs has a sufficient learning curve to make using agda-mode difficult... lol, seriously, are you _trying_ to come off as a noob?
10:57:15 <coppro> elliott: okay, I admit to being unfamiliar with dependently typed languages and not realising that that coqtop was fully-featured
10:57:27 <elliott> coqtop is... fully-featured, but not nice to use.
10:57:37 <elliott> Proof General -- built on top of Emacs -- is by far the nicest way to use Coq.
10:57:50 <elliott> It makes writing proofs incredibly convenient, especially with the three-window interface and electric terminator mode.
10:58:03 <elliott> And handles all the regular indentation/highlighting for functional-style code.
10:58:42 <coppro> elliott: I am also plenty aware of how emacs works generally, thank you
10:58:58 <elliott> Never did I suggest you weren't
10:59:10 <elliott> You did however claim that Emacs presented a learning curve that is difficult for using agda-mode
10:59:26 <elliott> Which is a laughable claim considering that newbies to programming pick up the essentials of Emacs within a few hours
10:59:55 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, BtW, if you're complaining about Agda being officially Emacs-based, coqtop has a built-in -emacs option.
11:00:27 <itidus21> How does emacs compare to MS Word for learning curve?
11:00:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Proof General uses that, right?
11:01:02 <NihilistDandy> itidus21: Much shallower. Word shortcuts make no sense at all
11:01:06 <itidus21> MS Word is childs play in comparison.
11:01:19 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, yes, and I think it's there specifically for PG's use.
11:01:29 <elliott> Word is incredibly unintuitive
11:02:11 <itidus21> as for me I use openoffice.org writer
11:02:27 <elliott> itidus21: You realise Emacs is not primarily a word processor, right?
11:03:00 <NihilistDandy> itidus21: Emacs is the only way it is actually possible to stand writing Lisp.
11:03:34 <elliott> NihilistDandy: You forgot Edwin :-)
11:03:43 <elliott> itidus21: Yes, Emacs is based upon and in large parts written in Emacs Lisp.
11:03:58 <elliott> All configuration is done through Emacs Lisp (well, there's Custom, but it just outputs Emacs Lisp based on your interactive configuration.)
11:04:02 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: My issue is not with language + IDE integration
11:04:22 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: My issue is with the language saying "use this editor/IDE/OS/whatever"
11:04:24 <itidus21> does emacs support any other languages in addition to lisp?
11:04:26 <elliott> An interactive environment is really critical to using a dependently-typed language with any sort of convenience whatsoever.
11:04:31 <elliott> coppro: The language said no such thing.
11:04:34 <elliott> coppro: The tutorial said such a thing.
11:04:40 <coppro> elliott: I checked multiple
11:04:45 <elliott> coppro: The tutorials said such a thing.
11:04:53 <elliott> coppro: And that's because refusing to use an interactive system is /a masochistic case/.
11:05:18 <elliott> Nobody does it. Because that's simply not productive at all, because to program in a dependently-typed language without an interactive system,
11:05:24 <elliott> you have to literally emulate the system in your head.
11:05:33 <elliott> Which would defeat the point for the language existing in the first place.
11:07:21 <elliott> coppro: And consider that if there were two different interactive proof systems for the same underlying language, /a tutorial for one would not apply to the other at all/. And a tutorial for the raw language alone, read without consulting a tutorial for the interactive system, would, again, be useless, as that is a /masochistic case/, it is simply not a viable way to use these languages.
11:07:34 <elliott> And maybe you can do it if you really want to for some perverse reason, but tutorials aren't written for that.
11:07:57 <elliott> Tutorials are written for people who want to use the language in a manner that at least vaguely resembles one which could be described as "proper".
11:09:04 <NihilistDandy> elliott: Let's see if No Starch will green light "Formally Construct You a Agda"
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11:16:08 <cheater> think about all the chicks you'd be getting
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11:21:34 <NihilistDandy> Yeah, chicks are really into obscure proof assistants
11:22:22 <elliott> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> Oh look, Dax has brought TWO glowy science sticks. <Phantom_Hoover> SHIT JUST GOT REAL
11:22:23 <HackEgo> 565) <Phantom_Hoover> Oh look, Dax has brought TWO glowy science sticks. <Phantom_Hoover> SHIT JUST GOT REAL
11:25:04 <Sgeo> Is Phantom_Hoover spoiled?
11:25:30 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm still watching DS9 and I don't want the rest of it spoiled, no.
11:25:46 * Sgeo is somewhere near the beginning of season 7
11:25:58 <Sgeo> It's been a while since I've watched
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11:31:38 <cheater> "i've rewritten agda in bash. wanna fuck?"
11:34:09 <NihilistDandy> Someone on the Agda list wrote an IRC bot/client in Agda
11:34:32 <elliott> There's that new web framework written in it. :p
11:34:44 <elliott> I'm sure it can display a blog index in only a few hours
11:36:10 <NihilistDandy> And it's type-safe, in that you can post anything you want because no one will be able to load enough of it to bother typing up the complaint email
11:37:09 <cheater> so, i wonder when they're gonna do another good star trek series
11:37:28 <cheater> ds9 and stv were disappointing, with straight-to-vhs quality
11:37:50 <cheater> the newer ones were just embarassing
11:38:09 <elliott> DS9 was straight-to-vhs quality ahahahahaha
11:38:33 <elliott> Because TNG had so much more special-effects budget....... and so much more plot
11:38:47 <elliott> And, ummmm, TOS was so... good?
11:38:58 <cheater> i have enjoyed tng much more than ds9 which was boring
11:39:26 <elliott> It may just be that you're too stupid to enjoy anything with a plot. Which is really sad since while DS9 has a plot, it's still fucking Star Trek.
11:41:28 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, says the guy who is on record as having said he despised DS9 because it was boring :P
11:41:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I honestly never said that.
11:41:57 <elliott> That has never been an opinion I have held; I can only assume I was joking.
11:42:09 <elliott> My jokes falling flat is... not... a rare occurrence.
11:42:30 <cheater> in fact, everything you say here is a joke, right?
11:42:42 <cheater> that is the only explanation.
11:43:26 <Phantom_Hoover> cheater, there's only so much effort worth spending on responding to you.
11:43:58 <cheater> am i currently in the black though?
11:44:32 <Phantom_Hoover> The only way you could be in the black would be tasteless and racist.
11:45:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Sounds right up cheater's alley.
11:45:36 <cheater> all the way up the alley, yes.
11:48:20 <cheater> i am truly enjoying filibustering the conversation when elliott makes comments telltale that he hasn't taken his pills
11:49:08 <elliott> I'm not sure you know what filibuster means. Also if I'm prescribed pills, you might want to let someone know, because sure as hell nobody else does.
11:50:35 <cheater> and in this way you perpetuate your own penalty for being stupid
11:51:15 <elliott> I know; it's truly awful, especially since I talk something like twice as much as the second-top person in here. Thankfully, people can escape from my prison with a simple /part.
11:51:26 <elliott> I'll try talking more to make the decision easier for you.
11:51:57 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: king. trip, fnord trip, george. speak big words, and threats shall be the queen of audience nor desire shall faile, i with things new borne. here's a head, dissevered from the trunk, there mangled arms and legs quite fnord off, and in the fortune of my choice, immediately to leave you and be acquainted with. where are the waits? go, villain, for ' tis most like he will
11:53:11 <cheater> that's not really what i mean, what i mean is that every time you act like an idiot i'm fairly easily able to draw you into a stupid, pointless conversation which just aggravates you. it has been working perfectly for as long as i can remember. you really should think about fixing the habit of going into that cycle.
11:54:21 <elliott> Wait, that's actually an explicit admission of trolling.
11:54:29 <elliott> Congratulations, you're an idiot.
11:54:57 <cheater> you're still going on, even though as you say talking to me is such a terrible pastime
11:55:31 <elliott> Well, I'm also reading an article and laughing about this in /msg, so I can afford to spend a small amount of time on this, since it's sufficiently hilarious right now.
11:55:52 <elliott> Do you plan your schedule for each day around when you're going to draw me into stupid, pointless conversations that apparently just aggravate me?
11:56:28 <cheater> not really, i only do that when you start it by doing something stupid.
11:56:51 <elliott> So you monitor the channel constant just in case your thirst for aggravation can be satisfied?
11:57:05 <elliott> It really seems like a lot of work for such a meagre gain; do you have some feelings you want to talk out?
11:57:14 <elliott> I won't judge. It's okay to be gay.
11:57:44 <cheater> no, i come here to chat, and when you come up with one of your idiotic interjections, i take out some of my time (and your time).
11:57:52 <Phantom_Hoover> All this talk about his alley must have flustered him.
11:58:25 <elliott> "I come here to chat" -- "one of your idiotic interjections" -- a nice representation of a situation where I produce like a third of the lines in each day's log and you produce about three, and also nobody ever responds to you because you're a troll.
11:58:33 <elliott> Well, apart from me and Phantom_Hoover because it's amusing.
11:59:03 <elliott> Unless you mean the stupid things I say every time you talk, because yeah, that's just plain mocking and if that isn't obvious to you then lol.
11:59:14 <cheater> yeah. what do you mean by that?
11:59:32 <elliott> You're not a convincing ELIZA without the punctuation.
11:59:47 <elliott> Uh, capitalisation. What's the difference.
12:00:27 <cheater> the correctness of spelling.
12:04:54 <cheater> oh, i see, well done teleporting out of the bear trap.
12:05:34 <fungot> elliott: shepherd. so she parted, and with deep groans the fnord bear would couch, the lion would suspect thee, when peraduenture thou wert accus'd by the asse: if thou want'st any thing, nor be so hardy ever to take a bribe to pay my legions, which you are, what is your fnord face
12:06:05 <cheater> i make a much better impression when i speak german
12:06:16 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher homestuck ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss* wp youtube
12:06:25 <fungot> Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings)
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12:17:17 <fizzie> fungot: Are you a poet now?
12:17:18 <fungot> fizzie: for. his quarry cries on hauocke. oh proud death, what cannot be avoided ' t were prejudicial to his crown? if not, he fnord cassio, cassio! what's the matter?
12:17:33 <fizzie> "if not, he fnord cassio, cassio!"
12:20:53 <Sgeo> It's just... "wonderful" how Quassel freezes when I switch to a channel I haven't looked at in a while
12:22:05 <fizzie> It is only natural to experiment in IRC client orientation at that age.
12:22:10 <fizzie> (Not that I know the age.)
12:22:48 <Sgeo> I like how it remembers what channels I'm in instead of having an autojoin list
12:23:07 <Sgeo> It seems easier to use in some ways
12:23:17 <Sgeo> (Harder to use in others)
12:23:34 <Sgeo> And I am considering putting a Quassel core somewhere
12:23:42 <elliott> fizzie: He's... what, about six years younger than you?
12:23:50 <elliott> <fizzie> AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
12:24:10 <fizzie> Yes, well, I meant I don't know how old he is.
12:25:11 <elliott> Does anyone know a way to track an Apple order back to its originating Apple ID thing? I, uh, have about four of them, and I'm not sure which one is the one I actually use.
12:27:15 <Sgeo> I also like that I can use my mousepad to scrol
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13:37:48 <Sgeo> "Rinderpest was"
13:37:53 <Sgeo> What beautiful word
13:38:18 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rinderpest
13:44:55 <Sgeo> Bah, /r/worms is practically empty
13:48:19 <elliott> Doesn't look practically empty to me.
13:48:29 <elliott> Huh, Coestar has posted there.
13:48:49 <elliott> Sgeo: You bought the Bundle, right?
13:49:44 <elliott> Sgeo: How much did you pay, I need to calibrate my sense of white, liberal guilt
13:49:59 <Sgeo> Please don't use me as a reference
13:50:41 <Sgeo> I don't have much money in my paypal account, and want to be able to buy future bundles
13:50:54 <Taneb> The $1 part, anyway
13:51:48 <elliott> I bought it for fifteen dollars, you bum
13:55:40 <Sgeo> How can VMoo not have LambdaMoo in it list of MOOs?
14:09:31 <elliott> Taneb: I'm playing my first real game of DF; I chose a site that, I now realise, has no river. How fucked am I.
14:10:00 <Taneb> On a scale of one to ten, actually not very
14:10:45 <Taneb> Unless youu run out of alcohol
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14:14:01 <cheater> i hadn't noticed: http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2010/12/haskell-researchers-announce-discovery.html
14:21:14 <elliott> Taneb: I don't suppose bone opal is anything to get excited about
14:23:04 <Taneb> There's only two things to get excited about
14:23:39 <elliott> Taneb: What about ADAMANTINE?????
14:25:58 <Sgeo> What's bituminous coal and lignite?
14:26:44 <elliott> "Note- When assigning stockpiles, you should make sure they're in a vacant area. IE; the tiles should only "contain" the ground. Dwarves will not haul stuff to filled tiles, so make sure the area is vacant (Assign the area for dump)"
14:26:45 <Taneb> You can make coal out of them
14:26:48 <elliott> Taneb: What's this about assigning the area for dump
14:27:09 <Taneb> Press i, then... g?
14:27:27 <Taneb> And mark a zone ass a rubbish dump near where you want stone to go to
14:27:43 <Sgeo> Maybe to clear any stuff away from that area?
14:27:50 <Sgeo> Is why they're saying assign it for dump?
14:27:51 <Taneb> Next to your mason
14:28:02 <elliott> Taneb: You realise I have exactly two rooms at this point.
14:28:05 <Taneb> You want your refuse pile outside
14:28:21 <elliott> So, wait for this storeroom to get minedo ut fully, assign a rubbish dump outside, and then mark the inside of it to be emptied?
14:28:52 <elliott> And... do cats usually adopt dwarves?
14:30:55 <elliott> This dwarf is such a lazy ass
14:31:06 <elliott> Taneb: So, erm, do I have to empty it out? I'm not sure how I can tell whether a room is vacant.
14:31:16 <elliott> Surely dwarves should vacantise a room when mining it out
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14:32:04 <elliott> Uhh, i just gives x: remove zones / Enter: place / e: rectangle / ESC: done / (disabled) v: next
14:32:18 <elliott> I guess it's a tool for adding a zone...
14:32:20 <Taneb> lace it then press g
14:32:22 <elliott> Do I place one out with the usual
14:32:56 <Taneb> Next to your potential mason's workshop
14:33:38 <elliott> You're assuming I have a potential mason; and that e has a workshop
14:33:54 <Taneb> No, you have a mason
14:33:59 <Taneb> And he has a potential workshop
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14:35:15 <elliott> Miner, woodworker, woodcutter, stoneworker, leader, fish cleaner, fisherdwarf. Why do I have a fish cleaner.
14:35:25 <Sgeo> How much does DF cost (j/k)
14:35:39 * Sgeo wonders if he should start playing again
14:35:54 <Sgeo> I think I stopped because it ate hours for breakfast lunch and dinner
14:36:04 <Taneb> Approximately 0 USD
14:36:24 <Taneb> elliott: to clean fish.
14:36:25 <Sgeo> And I think I preferred reading about it to playing it
14:36:32 <Taneb> Useless unless you have a river
14:36:38 <elliott> Taneb: So, OK, I've got my stoneworker -- how do I locate his workshop? I'm a bit of an idiot, you see.
14:37:14 <Taneb> And you're good at a lot of things I'm not
14:37:23 <elliott> Is b meant to do nothing at all observable?
14:37:46 <Taneb> Look to your right?
14:38:00 <Sgeo> Let's see if I can at all remember how to play
14:38:14 <Taneb> When did you stop?
14:38:14 <elliott> Taneb: To my right? There's just the screen with all these creatures.
14:38:20 <elliott> Blackness is to the right.
14:38:27 <Sgeo> Taneb, probably a year or two ago
14:38:48 <elliott> Taneb: I'm trying to find eir workshop, though
14:38:56 <Taneb> They don't have a workshop!
14:39:03 <Taneb> You have to designate it!
14:39:20 <elliott> I'll just plonk it... here.
14:39:29 <Taneb> I'm an awful teacher
14:40:04 <elliott> OK, resume'd; I guess I'll wait for this thing to appear then designate a tip.
14:40:17 <elliott> And I'm more of an awful learner than you're an awful teacher, most likely.
14:40:29 <Sgeo> How much of my initial dwarves should be an army?
14:40:46 <Taneb> I'm no good at that
14:41:06 <elliott> Taneb: So, erm, okay, a workshop isn't quite appearing.
14:41:08 <Sgeo> So: I'm going to die when goblins come. That's nice
14:41:14 <elliott> Is it meant to look like something?
14:41:31 <Taneb> Can your dwarves get to where you've placed it?
14:41:41 <elliott> I should think so, it's blocks away from the wagon.
14:41:49 <elliott> No obstructions I can see.
14:42:07 <elliott> "Profile requires manager" in red, at leats
14:42:20 <Taneb> Any more than that?
14:42:24 <elliott> It highlights a few blocks and calls 'em Mason's Workshop
14:42:34 <elliott> It also offers to remove the building
14:42:45 <Taneb> You have to use your...
14:42:51 <Taneb> IMAAAAAGINAAAATION
14:43:10 <elliott> OK, so I guess I have to designate a tip.
14:43:25 <elliott> Does that count as a type of building? :p
14:46:11 <Taneb> I was thinking arrows
14:46:32 <Sgeo> What is this object testing arena?
14:46:40 <Taneb> That's for testing objects
14:46:45 <Taneb> It's basically you and him fight
14:46:47 <elliott> Taneb: Designated. I think. k just shows it still as a "shrub".
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14:47:57 <elliott> Well, yes, the workshop is there.
14:48:04 <elliott> Oh, I seem to have designated it inside the workshop
14:48:07 <elliott> I'll try to the side of it
14:48:29 <elliott> Aha, I needed two enter keys
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14:49:05 <elliott> Taneb: I take it these "gold nuggets" / native gold are not as valuable as they seem :P
14:49:42 <Taneb> You need bituminous coal or lignite
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14:50:38 <elliott> Taneb: I'm just saying, it's OK to move them into the refuse pile?
14:50:39 * Sgeo makes there be very little savagry and a lot of mineral
14:51:36 <elliott> NihilistDandy: BTW, the "minimise into applications" thing is in Snow Leopard too.
14:52:15 <Sgeo> Is the age of myths suppose to tick off at 1 year a second?
14:52:29 <Sgeo> Or maybe too much is running on my computer right now
14:53:01 <elliott> Standing order "Refuse"? Maybe not
14:53:12 <elliott> It's not a designation, at least
14:53:17 <elliott> (Trying to clear out the room)
14:55:18 <elliott> Taneb: Ah, when I "k" around there's d: Dump
14:55:24 <elliott> Do I just do that individually for each block it's offered for?
14:57:43 <itidus20> "the shortest distance between any pair of points is invariant on translation from one frame to another (barring relativistic cases)."
14:58:22 <Taneb> There's a shortcut, but I can't currrenty remember it
14:58:54 <itidus20> what might a relativistic case be?
15:03:10 <elliott> Taneb: umm, wait, do I want a garbage dump or a refuse stockpile?
15:03:25 <elliott> Seems like I want a garbage dump
15:05:02 <Taneb> You want a refuse stockpile where you want the garbage to go
15:05:42 <lament> i want 10 garbage dumps
15:07:31 <elliott> Taneb: I just have a garbage dump and no refuse stockpile
15:07:45 <elliott> Oh, all the dwarves are partying to get rid of the stones. Glad it entertains them.
15:08:14 <elliott> RIP Badger Sow's enragedness.
15:11:54 <elliott> Taneb: http://i.imgur.com/WDpg4.png
15:12:00 <elliott> Taneb: Look at my pro square room building skills
15:13:18 <elliott> "Uvash Timnärmosus, Fisherdwarf cancels Fish: Interrupted by Pike."
15:13:21 <zzo38> My OpenID has seems to always fail to work on Blogger but works everywhere else I have tried it.
15:15:19 <Taneb> elliott: all fisherdwarves have an irrational fear of fish
15:16:50 <Taneb> I once tried to make an upside-down pyramid out of microcline
15:16:58 <Taneb> It worked until it didn't
15:17:27 <elliott> Is there any way to undo a designation?
15:18:22 <Taneb> Unless it's already been built
15:20:39 <zzo38> in a text adventure game, that you have an inventory limit. But, one room types in its own commands for you (you can type in your own command after each of its automatic commands). If the first command is PICK UP THE BOMB and it will cause it to explode, then how can you enter that room without explodiing?
15:20:54 <zzo38> O, what you need, is carry too many things now you cannot pick up the bomb. But, what happened after some wizard made you have infinite carrying capacity?
15:20:59 <elliott> Taneb: O...K... I inexplicably have seven downwards staircases.
15:21:02 <zzo38> Well, then, what you should do is get your own defused bomb and throw it into the room with the other bomb before entering. Now the command PICK UP THE BOMB is ambiguous.
15:21:04 <elliott> That's six more than I need.
15:21:07 <elliott> Will those cause any harm?
15:21:13 <zzo38> elliott: Then destroy six of thm.
15:21:24 <Taneb> They'll get in the way
15:23:04 <zzo38> What is your opinion of this text adventure game?
15:23:14 <elliott> Hmm, what's the proper method to remove a staircase once it's built...? Or, well, any construction of that nature.
15:24:50 <elliott> I tried that, but I don't seem to be able to designate it on the staircase
15:25:42 <elliott> They can't seem to get at the layer below at all
15:25:52 <elliott> Can't mine it, and I can't get any stairway designation on the tiles there
15:25:57 <Taneb> You need a corresponding up stair
15:26:08 <elliott> It simply won't place the designation
15:26:14 <elliott> I think it's because there are only wall-ish tiles below
15:26:19 <elliott> The light grey background things
15:26:23 <elliott> But I can designate them to mine
15:26:26 <elliott> And absolutely nothing happens
15:26:35 <elliott> Could the multiple staircase mess be blocking them?
15:27:21 <elliott> So I need to get rid of the others :/
15:28:38 <Taneb> Dig a channel on them
15:28:59 <elliott> Wiki implies that remove construction /should/ work, but I will try that
15:29:35 -!- Elizacat has left ("Leaving").
15:30:16 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/fMibO.png O...K...
15:30:19 <elliott> Nice downward slopes, I guess.
15:32:06 <Taneb> Then go down a level and do remove up stairs/ramps on the ramps
15:33:00 <Sgeo> Why doe my world only have age of myths?
15:36:05 <elliott> Taneb: So, erm, how would I get my dorfs to lay some nice floor where open space is? Or am I pretty much going to have to deal with the hole for now
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15:42:45 <elliott> Taneb: Oh great, my only miner is currently a floor below in the cave-in
15:43:42 -!- nooga has joined.
15:45:47 <Taneb> Make him mine himself outta there
15:46:06 <elliott> I think she's knocked out.
15:47:02 -!- Taneb has changed nick to TanebIsCurrently.
15:47:10 -!- TanebIsCurrently has changed nick to NotHeree.
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15:49:38 <Sgeo> elliott, have fun!
15:49:48 <elliott> Sgeo: I'm heading rapidly towards Fun, methinks.
15:52:08 <elliott> Now I just gotta replace this upward stairway with an up/down stairway.
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16:12:12 <Sgeo> http://news.cnet.com/8301-27080_3-20088441-245/researchers-find-avenues-for-fraud-in-square/
16:12:17 <Sgeo> FUCKING GENIUSES
16:13:02 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
16:13:30 <elliott> Sgeo: Oh my god shut up, the Square thing is no less insecure than ANYTHING INVOLVING A CREDIT CARD EVER.
16:13:43 <elliott> HERE'S A FUCKING CREDIT CARD EXPLOIT FOR YOU:
16:13:48 <elliott> - Take credit card from person.
16:13:53 <elliott> - Take covert photo of number.
16:14:01 <elliott> - Turn it over, memorise three-digit security code.
16:14:10 <elliott> - CONGRATULATIONS, YOU'VE PWNHAXORED THE CREDIT CARD
16:14:45 <Sgeo> http://twitter.com/#!/sgeocomet/status/6413186030 note to self: stop assuming that people are competent
16:15:04 * elliott gives up on reasoning with Sgeo.
16:19:41 <zzo38> Even chip/PIN systems of debit cards and credit cards has many things insecure, I have once written part of a protocol which improves the security a lot.
16:20:02 <zzo38> (However I don't need any debit cards and credits cards anyways)
16:20:56 <Taneb> I HAVE THREE MILLION DOLLARS IN CASH IN MY POCKET
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16:22:30 <nooga> how does two-way staircase look in df text tileset?
16:24:31 <Taneb> ...With it's carefully concealed eyes?
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16:26:32 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `+'
16:27:10 <zzo38> Actually, one protocol for a new kind of chip system (it uses passwords as well, but in a different way to the current system, and has other differences as well), and another protocol for bank accounts. If you want transfer using bank accounts: Either SSH into your bank account and issue a "SPLIT" command, or go to the bank, give them the cash, and a temporary account is created (just as if you used SPLIT).
16:33:01 -!- Nisstyre has joined.
16:46:20 <elliott> Gregor: Hey, what was that MIDI renderer thing again?
16:48:54 -!- Cheery has joined.
16:49:30 <elliott> The soundfont webservice thing
16:49:38 <Cheery> http://bayimg.com/KaJcdaadh
16:49:40 <Gregor> http://codu.org/webmidi/
16:50:03 <elliott> Cheery: Well that sure is incomprehensible.
16:50:22 <elliott> Gregor: Which was nicest for what purpose again X-D
16:51:20 <Cheery> elliott: it's just a composition about google's 'what do you love' -search results.
16:51:36 <Cheery> appears google doesn't tolerate sex. but it tolerates terrorism
16:51:55 <Gregor> elliott: Sonivox is good. Steinway is a piano. Auto-pan is usually a good idea.
16:51:57 <elliott> Or it could just be a ``joke''
16:52:21 <elliott> Gregor: Oh god, I need that Britney Spears piano rendition in my life again
16:53:16 <Cheery> I know it's a ``joke''. but this contrast is even funnier :)
16:53:33 <Cheery> http://image.bayimg.com/kajcdaadh.jpg - the full pic is perhaps nicer to look at
16:53:54 <elliott> It's funny, if by funny you mean ... not funny.
16:53:55 <Cheery> I personally like the "Plan your terrorism events" and "Scour the earth for terrorism"
16:54:10 <elliott> Not that the porn->kittens thing is really funny either
16:54:20 <elliott> But isn't this joke about a month late
16:57:08 <Gregor> `"Find terrorism nearby"
16:57:33 <Gregor> Where'd that backtick come from :P
16:58:19 <Gregor> "nudity" was the most naughty non-kitten word I could find that's not also fetishy and supernaughty :P
16:58:20 * Sgeo is going to start watching Carl Sagan's Cosmos
16:58:32 <elliott> OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
17:03:24 <Taneb> Silly Italy and Spain
17:03:44 <Taneb> Causing people with money to panic
17:19:39 <zzo38> Now if I make up a game system (it is also a computer system), I can have optional stereovision mode, because I invented the protocol for doing so.
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17:20:15 <zzo38> At first it starts with a syncrhonization signal, which must consist of frames all of one color in the following order: Gray,Gray,Black,White,Black,White,Black,White,Black,White,Black,White,Gray,White.
17:20:22 <zzo38> And then, you alternate output of left and right channels.
17:20:35 <zzo38> To exit stereovision mode consist of five consecutive identical frames.
17:21:26 <zzo38> But it can be used wither any other systems too, you can make programs that can use this stereovision mode.
17:21:27 <Gregor> elliott: Piano Spears lighting your word yet?
17:21:33 <elliott> Gregor: I was unable to find it. ALAS.
17:22:13 <zzo38> Probably even NES/Famicom is capable of using this stereovision mode.
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18:15:01 <nooga> unfoldr (\b -> fmap (const . (second $ drop 1) . break (==' ') $ b) . listToMaybe $ b)
18:17:15 <nooga> what a nice way to split strings
18:22:50 <elliott> split package is better :P
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19:08:06 <elliott> Atom Zombie Smasher bonus!
19:08:07 <elliott> Humble Indie Bundle 3 now includes Atom Zombie Smasher.
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19:14:20 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, it's clearly just a covert scheme to guilt the hell out of everyone.
19:15:30 <elliott> That starving indie developer picture, "It appears that you have no heart! Please prove that you are really human.", "You determine how much we deserve to earn or lose from your purchase."...
19:15:36 <elliott> It's a business model based on guilt :-P
19:17:34 <itidus21> the message "pay whatever you want" registers in your concious reasoning as the ultimate bargain... of being entirely in your best interests since it is putting you in control
19:18:26 <itidus21> and that... any concious attempt to find fault with it could be smothered or rationalized by the fact that it's your fault if you're not happy with the price you pay
19:19:43 <itidus21> however, such explanations do not account for the role of the individual in a society... complete with norms, expectations, feelings of guilt, feelings of shame, ethics of reciprocity, people-pleasers
19:20:11 <itidus21> and the idea that in a way you condone things, or vote for them, or sometimes boycott them, with your money
19:20:32 <itidus21> that collectively people make and break projects by how they spend their money
19:21:44 <itidus21> there is surely a game theory aspect to it
19:23:18 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus21, it's really just a matter of balancing the amount you're paying with the obligation you feel to pay and the incentive for them to provide further bundles.
19:24:40 <zzo38> Someone ask me for their money back under warranty because when trying to use my software, a big spider touch them. But, there is no payment required for use of this software nor is there any warranty of this software. And you also shouldn't sue someone just because their ladder doesn't have a sign that says "Don't fall down"
19:25:35 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:25:44 <zzo38> Do you believe me?
19:26:41 <itidus21> its quite possible this person is targetting all creators of free software with this threat seeking out of court settlements
19:26:56 <zzo38> Or, do you think I am lying?
19:27:09 <itidus21> since with free software its much easier to install it, and thus provide evidence
19:27:59 <itidus21> i suspect its probably a wider stunt.... spider "touch" them.. hence they don't need a bite mark.. and they don't need to pay for the software
19:29:17 <itidus21> was it specific about the nature of your software, or could it be mass?
19:29:54 <itidus21> such a person, with such low odds of success sending such an email, would need a large population
19:30:27 <itidus21> so its unlikely they have the time to actually try out every piece of software .. oor maybe they did
19:30:39 <zzo38> itidus21: No I think it was a few years ago in some IRC channel someone asked me directly. Maybe they are trying to be confusing or lying or joking or something I don't know, or tricked me
19:31:22 <zzo38> (Obviously I did *not* give them a refund, since they did not pay me anything for it at first anyways)
19:31:30 <itidus21> so they asked for money back on some free software... thats really bizzare]
19:33:05 <zzo38> Do you know what a respose such as "VarI a_1627393744 (VarT t_1946157056) Nothing (Fixity 9 InfixL)" means in Haskell?
19:34:06 <zzo38> itidus21: Probably because my software confuses some people due to it being different from other software.
19:35:14 <itidus21> im trying to study some mechanics...
19:35:30 <itidus21> someone in another room said game coding rarely needs calculus
19:35:47 <itidus21> but... i seem to encounter calculus at every turn in this subject of mechanics
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19:36:37 <zzo38> itidus21: I also seem game coding rarely needs calculus, but I have found many kinds of mathematics useful in a few cases in various programming whether it is a game or something else
19:37:14 <zzo38> Once I was making a program to convert colorspace and I figured it out by solving some algebra on paper at first, and then programming it into the computer.
19:38:21 <itidus21> kinematics, acceleration, proper acceleration, geodesic
19:38:39 <zzo38> However, the game programs I write rarely need kinematics, acceleration, geodesic, etc
19:38:57 <itidus21> i just want a good grasp of how everything works
19:39:07 <itidus21> i want to create a skeletal animation system
19:39:33 <itidus21> maybe i should just jump into a tutorial on that directly :P
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19:40:11 <zzo38> Yes you can try but what programming language do you want to use? And, in some cases, what kind of libraries to do graphics output?
19:40:30 <itidus21> i want to design it in pseudocode terms
19:40:48 <itidus21> design more than implementation
19:41:42 <zzo38> With some literate programming tools you can type design and implementation, including pseudocode terms, in the same document
19:42:02 <itidus21> i only want design though.. like on paper
19:42:26 <zzo38> Then how can the program work? How can you run the program?
19:42:58 <itidus21> lol... its different because i am under no constraints
19:43:06 <itidus21> so there is no rush to implement
19:43:18 <zzo38> Often I also write things on paper when deciding something about computer programming
19:43:49 <zzo38> However I write it my own notes, and is not really for other people to read my notes. Other people can read the implementation instead.
19:44:24 <itidus21> so i am trying to figure out how a 2d skeleton would work in practice
19:45:09 <itidus21> i could certainly make one if it was frozen in place.... but the important part of actually making it animate is lots of thinking involved
19:45:26 <zzo38> But a lot of the things I just figure out when doing the implementation. Since it is literate programming, I just put the chapters I need and the blocks, and the descriptions of what it is supposed to be, once I have thought about it a bit at first, and then typing
19:46:27 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:46:27 <itidus21> ah.. so it could be that a model to experiment with would be a good start
19:47:01 <zzo38> One thing you can do, too, is figure out a few of the equations on paper, first.
19:47:35 <zzo38> And then, if you want to, you can typeset the equations using TeX or whatever else you want to use.
19:47:52 <itidus21> hmm still to early for prototype i suppose..
19:48:31 <itidus21> so.. to youtube... the great colony google
19:50:10 <zzo38> But, I think, YouTube cannot be printed out. Because, it is motion video/audio. And it requires Flash and those other stuff.
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19:50:31 <zzo38> So, you can make a document that can be printout, instead.
19:51:30 <zzo38> So you think so, or not?
19:51:41 <MDude> What do you mean by 2d skeleton?
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19:52:23 <MDude> I guess I'm mostly wondering whether parts will be allowed to overlap or not.
19:53:56 <zzo38> Has anyone ever done literate programming including a DVD of the program in the back of the book?
19:54:02 <MDude> Though I guess that doens't really affect the skeleton part itself, just what you use it for.
19:54:53 <itidus21> MDude: i mean like an invisible frame of interconnected vertices onto which visible pieces are added
19:55:02 <itidus21> ^added or.. skinned in some way
19:55:30 <itidus21> i also want to give it inverse kinematics... just to be awesome
19:56:10 <itidus21> its all part of some hare-brained scheme for a game engine
19:57:25 <itidus21> its been done before and all... but it is a pretty sexy thing
19:58:40 <MDude> I guess the hard part is deciding how joints work in it.
19:59:00 <itidus21> well see... i don't know this kind of math very well
19:59:03 -!- pumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin.
19:59:27 <itidus21> so its basically, i know its possible, and its just a matter of finding out which formulas do what i need
19:59:41 <MDude> Well, th reason they say calculus isn't needed in games much is because the nature of games tends ot lend itself to interation.
20:00:32 <quintopia> zzo38: probably, but i doubt anyone has ever done literate programming such that the book cover is a flash drive, and the usb plug hangs down on a cord as a bookmark
20:00:59 <itidus21> my plans are too freeform to be bound up by something like literate programming
20:01:07 <quintopia> (which is obv coller than just hanging a flash drive on as a bookmark)
20:01:33 <MDude> I'm not quite sure what literate programming ahs to do with calculus,s icne I jsut heard of it.
20:01:49 <MDude> Though I was thinking of making an esolang based on a very strict idea of essay writing.
20:01:53 <itidus21> you could almost say the whole thing is a thought exercize...
20:02:08 <itidus21> this thing i am working on i mean
20:02:34 <quintopia> the heist of the nasa moon rocks was just a thought experiment too
20:03:21 <MDude> What I do know is that with game stuff, you usually only need to take the current and maybe previous state of the things in the game and figure out what their next state is.
20:04:29 <MDude> Which means you usually don't need to plan out what anything is going to do more than a single world update from now.
20:05:04 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
20:05:09 <MDude> At least that's how it works when using interative stuff..
20:05:11 <itidus21> ok i found a tutorial it seems
20:06:15 <itidus21> I have implemented things in the past, despite not being very good, I know that I can implement things if I have to. So I am focused on the system now.
20:06:55 <itidus21> perhaps an overengineered monster, perhaps just an experiment
20:08:18 <elliott> i dunno if it's a thing thing
20:08:57 * Sgeo wants public domain book recommendation
20:09:26 <monqy> elliott: is it a good thing
20:09:31 <elliott> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> OK, Taneb's been taken by a mood and he needs raw emeralds. <Phantom_Hoover> It's been fun knowing him.
20:09:34 <HackEgo> 566) <Phantom_Hoover> OK, Taneb's been taken by a mood and he needs raw emeralds. <Phantom_Hoover> It's been fun knowing him.
20:09:37 <elliott> monqy: it's a thing... it's interesting at leas
20:09:57 <elliott> and well-thought-out, seemingly
20:10:18 <elliott> monqy: you should totally play in the df succession game that Phantom_Hoover currently has
20:10:31 <quintopia> sgeo: you are limiting yourself right out of all the good books by insisting they be public domain. you might consider reading fanfics and creative commons books too.
20:10:49 <elliott> creatve commons fanfic of public dmain bookes,,,,,
20:11:13 <monqy> elliott: I dunno how to play dwarf fortrese but sure?? I'll need a half-decent tileset or whatever it is first.
20:11:14 <Sgeo> What good CC books are there?
20:11:24 <elliott> monqy: im just play with the default tileset,, i learned,, to be gangsta
20:11:42 <elliott> you have a nice look-walkabout type thing so it's not really that bad
20:11:50 <elliott> and the default at least gets a bunch of information on screen at once if you maximise it
20:11:54 <quintopia> sgeo: down and out in the magic kingdom is supposed to be good, though i never finished it
20:11:57 <elliott> obviously squares not being... square
20:12:02 <elliott> but it doesn't really matter at all
20:12:06 <elliott> apart from like aesthetic concerns
20:12:14 <elliott> and ugly text is a way bigger aesthetic failure than that
20:12:27 <monqy> aesthetic concerps are improtate but the uggly text is what I catre about
20:12:42 <elliott> monqy: yeah just use the default it's pretty fine
20:12:47 <itidus21> regarding implementation languages, i have this idea of doing a virtual machine language based around vector graphics primitives
20:12:58 <itidus21> so this puppy is all about over-engineering
20:13:04 <monqy> last time I tried the default it made me sad maybe it chagned????
20:13:14 <elliott> monqy: get sad about dying dorfs instead :(
20:13:42 <elliott> monqy: im next in line after Phantom_Hoover, I think Lymee is meant to be after me but uh Lymee will probably inevitably the last player in the whole thing for obvious reasons so you should totally go after me
20:13:48 <quintopia> elliott: do you have an articulate complaint?
20:14:08 <monqy> elliott: first I will learn how to dwarfe
20:14:16 <elliott> quintopia: the premise sounds kind of cool but i don't see how it can't possibly be sufferable if doctorow wrote it
20:14:17 -!- itidus21 has changed nick to itidus20.
20:14:25 <elliott> monqy: but......that spoils all the funne................
20:14:44 <coppro> elliott: did you mean '... don't see how it can possibly ...'
20:14:54 <elliott> monqy: boatmurdered was built on the solid foundation of people who don't know what the fuck they're doing
20:15:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: whats the name of our forte btw
20:15:32 <monqy> elliott: ok i wont'e learn how tto dwarfe
20:23:15 <coppro> elliott: why not a fan?
20:23:49 <Cheery> naming proposals? it holds contiguous segment of instructions and usually ends up in exit or jump of some kind.
20:24:11 <elliott> coppro: I just find boingboing irritating in general
20:24:14 <elliott> ais523: oh, since when are you here?
20:24:23 <Cheery> elliott: good, except that it's smaller grain.
20:24:24 <coppro> elliott: ah. What about non-boingboing writings?
20:24:30 <ais523> elliott: since I joined
20:24:31 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
20:24:45 <lambdabot> elliott said 19d 20h 14m 47s ago: Request a copy of the wiki page "100_free_dutch_dating_sites_2008".
20:24:45 <lambdabot> elliott said 18h 24m 54s ago: Do you know of the Confluence functional HDL?
20:24:45 <lambdabot> elliott said 18h 24m 29s ago: It seems to have a compiler written in OCaml too :)
20:24:56 <elliott> you broke the usage instructions :)
20:25:09 <Cheery> elliott: what does 'thunk' mean?
20:25:24 <elliott> Cheery: It's commonly used in implementing lazy functional languages
20:25:29 <elliott> it basically just means an unevaluated piece of code
20:25:33 <ais523> Cheery: it's basically a bit of code that hasn't been run but will be when its answer is needed
20:25:38 <elliott> or, a 0-argument procedure designed to evaluate a piece of code
20:26:01 <ais523> and is typically used as a procedure argument when converting call-by-name to call-by-value (e.g. to implement it)
20:26:59 <Sgeo> http://www.barnesandnoble.com/s/down%20and%20out%20in%20the%20magic%20kingdom?store=ebook lol
20:27:03 <elliott> hmm, Wikipedia seems to mention Confluence
20:27:03 <oerjan> :t let testB bool arrow = proc () -> do if bool then arrow -< () else arrow -< () in testB
20:27:23 <elliott> I just found it a fairly good coincidence that there's another functional HDL with a compiler written in OCaml
20:27:37 <Sgeo> Why does the download page say "for Stanza"?
20:27:58 <monqy> I like arrows but I've never bothered learning their do notation. Is it any good?
20:28:32 <elliott> monqy: why do you liek arrows,,,
20:28:32 <oerjan> elliott: http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2011-August/094454.html
20:28:56 <oerjan> fortunately/unfortunately lambdabot doesn't have them on...
20:30:07 <monqy> elliott: ther'y kind of nice....but they could be better........i wish they were better
20:30:27 <elliott> monqy: they're (almost) equivalent to Category + universal Applicative instance
20:30:35 <elliott> i.e. instance Category arr and instance Applicative (arr a)
20:30:46 <elliott> monqy: cdsmith is working on a two-parter about the almost-equivalence now
20:30:57 <elliott> monqy: IIRC the almost part is just that things like [three ampersands] have to have no defined ordering
20:31:02 <elliott> because they say "left first
20:31:25 <elliott> but yeah I never liked arrows... the functions are nice to use but everyone always uses them on (->)
20:31:27 <elliott> and as a typeclass it's a mess
20:31:42 <oerjan> !haskell {-# LANGUAGE ArrowNotation #-} import Control.Arrow; testB :: ArrowChoice arrow => bool -> arrow () () -> arrow () anything; testB bool arrow = proc () -> do if bool then arrow -< () else arrow -< (); main = print (testB False (const ()) () () :: [()])
20:31:46 <monqy> one of the things I dislike about arrows is they're tupley yeah
20:31:50 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.24917.hs:1:13: unsupported extension: ArrowNotation
20:32:05 <monqy> and I've only ever used them on (->)
20:32:09 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Arrow; testB :: ArrowChoice arrow => bool -> arrow () () -> arrow () anything; testB bool arrow = proc () -> do if bool then arrow -< () else arrow -< (); main = print (testB False (const ()) () () :: [()])
20:32:14 <lambdabot> forall a b c. (a -> b -> c) -> (a, b) -> c
20:32:16 <elliott> monqy: http://cdsmith.wordpress.com/2011/07/30/arrow-category-applicative-part-i/ is part one
20:32:34 <lambdabot> forall a b c. ((a, b) -> c) -> a -> b -> c
20:32:35 <oerjan> no suggestion :( oh wait...
20:32:48 <oerjan> !haskell {-# LANGUAGE Arrows #-} import Control.Arrow; testB :: ArrowChoice arrow => bool -> arrow () () -> arrow () anything; testB bool arrow = proc () -> do if bool then arrow -< () else arrow -< (); main = print (testB False (const ()) () () :: [()])
20:32:50 <Lymee> :t curry . uncurry
20:32:51 <lambdabot> forall a b c. (a -> b -> c) -> a -> b -> c
20:33:09 <monqy> elliott: what if there was a better arrows
20:33:11 <elliott> monqy: warning contains (PROOOFFS)S)S
20:33:17 <elliott> monqy: there is a better arrows it is category + applicative
20:33:27 <elliott> unless you want to combine those for no gain i guess
20:33:32 <elliott> but yeah read http://cdsmith.wordpress.com/2011/07/30/arrow-category-applicative-part-i/ it is a Good Post
20:33:59 <oerjan> !haskell {-# LANGUAGE Arrows #-} import Control.Arrow; testB :: ArrowChoice arrow => bool -> arrow () () -> arrow () anything; testB bool arrow = (proc () -> do if bool then arrow -< () else arrow -< ()); main = print (testB False (const ()) () () :: [()])
20:35:15 <oerjan> ok EgoBot doesn't have the bug
20:35:33 <elliott> oerjan: if you could break egobot/hackego by segfaulting it...
20:35:47 <elliott> if it _does_ have the bug, that's what it'd look like
20:36:25 <monqy> did it privately send errors or something
20:39:15 <oerjan> <elliott> unless you want to combine those for no gain i guess <-- i read that post as implying that you needed laws relating the category and applicative parts
20:39:33 <elliott> oerjan: i thought it was just a trivial restriction because Arrow is more general than it should be
20:39:36 <elliott> what with ordering of effects
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20:42:06 <zzo38> Is it important to understand category theory to use Haskell?
20:43:00 <elliott> ais523: hmm, I swear I had important revelations about [at sign] earlier.......... but they're gone now
20:43:15 <olsner> can't have been that important then
20:43:35 <ais523> Feather doesn't do that to me, so presumably @ is more viable
20:43:48 <ais523> with Feather, I have important revelations that I don't understand
20:43:52 <elliott> olsner: saying such a thing belies your lack of understanding of [COMMERCIAL AT]
20:44:28 <elliott> ais523: oh i think it was just that the whole "sending an object" thing is only needed if you want to do it indirectly for some reason — if you have an encrypted channel open, you can just send the serialisation directly
20:44:39 <Sgeo> Going outside to read
20:44:42 <ais523> that's a reasonable optimization
20:45:15 <elliott> unfortunately, I'm not sure how I can generically serialise anything in a way that lets anyone read it while still gelling with my library model and type system/language that doesn't make every serialisation completely huge and redundant
20:45:32 <Sgeo> This epub has no table of contents
20:45:40 <elliott> (the obvious way is just to reduce everything to sum, product, etc. types and send source code for functions, basically reduce everything down to primitives)
20:45:49 <elliott> (but obviously, sending anything in this form is completely impractical, as it'll be huge)
20:47:00 <ais523> what about hashes for functions, and parts of them?
20:47:14 <elliott> also I should probably try to understand RDP, as it seems to have things to say about all this :)
20:47:16 <ais523> that way, say if the same library happened to be used by objects on both computers already
20:47:22 <elliott> ais523: umm, a hash doesn't really let you compute (a->b)
20:47:30 <ais523> elliott: it does if you have (a->b) already
20:47:36 <ais523> by letting you recognise that you have it already
20:47:44 <elliott> but still, encoding everything as sums and products is horrible
20:47:48 <ais523> that should save huge amounts of bandwidth, because probably you will
20:47:51 <elliott> especially since it breaks encapsulation
20:48:00 <elliott> because everything is reduced to its _implementation_
20:48:06 <elliott> it's definitely not The Way
20:48:35 <elliott> I'm starting to wonder if the remote access of objects is the correct way to handle networking
20:48:46 <elliott> there's a sense in which RAM:disk is not comparable to disk:internet at all
20:48:59 <elliott> because a disk failure is a critical scenario and not something you expect to deal with at all
20:49:06 <elliott> but an internet failure is almost as common as an internet success
20:49:18 <elliott> and ofc the disk generally doesn't lie to you as a matter of course
20:49:20 -!- micahjohnston has joined.
20:49:24 <elliott> and it isn't quite so slow as to take minutes to transfer things.
20:49:45 <elliott> and... passing around objects doesn't really solve the problem of how to _communicate_ between computers.
20:49:57 <elliott> which isn't the same as just communicating within the same computer
20:50:00 <elliott> because of all the above issues
20:50:08 <elliott> but then that just makes me think, maybe the problem is how intra-computer communication is done
20:50:27 <pikhq> Not to mention that conceptually, the disk is persistent, slow non-RAM, whereas a remote system is conceptually more akin to an additional *user*, that you don't really want to trust much.
20:50:32 <ais523> elliott: gah, you may end up agreeing with me about the usefulness of pervasive communication if you keep thinking along those lines
20:50:34 <elliott> because, why shouldn't it be fault-tolerant and resistant to slowness and outages, too?
20:50:37 <ais523> and that would be so out of character I'd die from shock
20:50:53 <elliott> admittedly, that's not exactly terribly _useful_ on a PC
20:50:59 <elliott> but the properties are nice, they sound like nice guarantees
20:51:05 <elliott> this is spurred on by me reading the RDP stuff a bit
20:51:14 -!- Taneb has joined.
20:51:23 <elliott> which is basically designed so that you can do everything over the most unreliable connections possible and it works because of the static guarantees
20:51:27 <ais523> (well, possibly not, but I'd be very surprised)
20:51:42 <elliott> pervasive communication, in this context, that is
20:51:57 <elliott> (RDP is basically a competitor/refinement-according-to-the-guy-who-made-it of FRP, if none of this makes sense)
20:51:59 <ais523> having a constant Internet connection, and using it without thinking abuot that you're using it
20:52:18 <elliott> ais523: presumably something you disapprove of :)
20:52:20 <ais523> my mind keeps expanding it to "remote desktop protocol", but apart from that I'm fine
20:52:40 <elliott> well, no, I still disagree with you about that. but that isn't the same thing as thinking that servers never go down.
20:52:54 <elliott> or that internet connections can be as fast as disk. or that all agents on the internet are trustable, etc.
20:53:32 <elliott> ais523: note that I would consider it a bug if [AMPHERE] didn't work without an internet connection, too
20:53:46 <ais523> meanwhile, I've been playing Humble Bundle games
20:53:57 <ais523> and will probably surprise the channel by liking Hammerfight the most out of the ones I've played
20:54:01 <elliott> because, one, internet connections aren't even remotely as reliable as they should be, and I'm not writing an OS that you can't actually use;
20:54:02 <ais523> Crayon Physics was fun, but felt a bit limited
20:54:11 <elliott> and two, why should [insert name for the at sign] depend on anything at all?
20:54:18 <ais523> (I haven't completed it, and probably won't end up doing so)
20:54:32 <elliott> how much did you pay, out of curiosity, if you're willing to disclose?
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20:55:13 <elliott> the guilt model for selling software works surprisingly well
20:55:21 <ais523> elliott: marginally above 5 GBP (due to rounding errors in currency conversions)
20:55:31 <ais523> I may increase it, depending on how much I think the games are actually worth
20:55:32 <elliott> especially with the option to give them more money after-the-fact, combined with the fact that they won't fucking stop adding games
20:55:39 <ais523> none's impressed me enough to pay full price yet
20:55:51 <ais523> as in, none are games I'd pay typical game-like prices for
20:55:57 <elliott> ais523: ah, I paid nine pounds (fifteen dollars)
20:56:05 <elliott> and, well, typical game-like prices are like forty quid, that's ridiculous for /any/ game
20:56:38 <elliott> I also reduced the allocation to the indie-bundle-two developers because I've already been gifted a copy of that one. I think that makes sense, because bits aren't scarce. think.
20:56:43 <elliott> I'm not sure it does, but :)
20:56:52 <ais523> elliott: it makes sense, but not for that reason
20:57:05 <elliott> as in, bundletwo + bundletwo = bundletwo, so they've already gotten paid for what they're giving me
20:57:32 <elliott> and bundletwo + bundletwo = bundletwo because it's non-scarce. or hmm, I suppose that could apply to scarce goods too
20:57:56 <ais523> indeed, just as long as they only need the one copy
20:58:05 <ais523> if something's scarce but not useful in multiples, it's still 1+1=1
20:58:09 <ais523> but I can't think of anything like that offhand
20:58:15 <ais523> I expect it exists, though
20:58:21 <elliott> the average cost thing is a really brilliant guilting mechanism, too
20:58:26 <ais523> hmm, some professional-quality tools, I suppose
20:58:31 <elliott> it also made me feel momentarily good at Linux users being the highest average payers
20:58:35 <elliott> even though that doesn't make much sense
20:58:45 <ais523> elliott: it didn't guilt me, I'd decided how much I'd pay before visiting the site
20:58:51 <ais523> and it turned out to be more than the average anyway
20:59:02 <elliott> oh, it didn't really guilt me
20:59:18 <elliott> but it's obvious that they're relying on guilt to a large degree to avoid people making it completely unprofitable
20:59:21 <ais523> also, if you're going to donate just 1 cent, aren't you going to report your OS as Windows?
20:59:43 <ais523> actually, I think even with 1¢ donations, they may well make a profit, unless the bandwidth costs them more than that
20:59:44 <elliott> hmm... you don't get to choose
20:59:47 <elliott> I imagine it users your user-agent
20:59:51 <elliott> which I doubt most people care enough to customise
20:59:53 <ais523> scroll to the bottom of the download page
21:00:15 <elliott> I didn't even notice that, because it's below a statistics box identical to one I've seen
21:00:21 <elliott> I suspect most people do the same
21:00:23 <ais523> also, I was very amused at the top payments list
21:00:37 * elliott wonders whether counting it as OS X is correct, as well as Linux
21:00:42 <ais523> when I looked, #1 was Mt.Gox (one of the main Bitcoin exchange sites), and #2 was Notch of Minecraft
21:00:46 <elliott> I purchased it on OS X because I was busy downloading four gigabytes that could only be downloaded from OS X
21:00:52 <ais523> which version did you download?
21:00:59 <elliott> ais523: last time, Notch had a price war with Garry of Garry's Mod
21:01:22 <Sgeo> Is it bad that I'm now taking notes while reading fiction?
21:01:26 * Sgeo goes back to readinng
21:01:32 <elliott> I'd just like to take the opportunity to point out the never-unfunny fact that MtGox stands for Magic the Gathering Online Exchange
21:01:49 <ais523> elliott: I know far too much about the M:tG economy
21:01:52 <ais523> which is, admittedly, >0
21:02:05 <elliott> presumably, so do the Mt. Gox people
21:02:10 <elliott> although obviously they're trying to hide that etymology :-P
21:02:33 <ais523> but it seems unclear why a separate exchange would be useful
21:02:46 * elliott is disappointed that nobody asked me what the four gigs more, though I guess it was obvious to most
21:03:19 <ais523> except for the dubious purpose of trading tix you own for real money you don't; you'd have to undercut list prices to be able to do that, but that's entirely plausible
21:03:30 <ais523> I assume Wizards don't like people doing that
21:03:59 <elliott> I find the total payments by platform list very interesting on the humble bundle site
21:04:14 <Sgeo> elliott, what?
21:04:20 <elliott> I suppose the data is skewed by the fact that its fame is partly /because/ it's available for OS X and Linux too
21:04:28 <ais523> (the basic unit of the M:tG economy is a bizarre choice; it's a ticket that allows you to enter an official tournament that has prizes, and is approximately equal in value to the average value of the prizes divided by the number of participants)
21:04:31 <elliott> but it sure does poke a hole in all the "os x and linux are non-markets for games" rhetoric
21:04:55 <fizzie> This time Notch paid $4048, and I immediately wondered whether it was a thinko for $4096, even before that MtG-oxen one.
21:04:55 <ais523> elliott: I'd expect the values to be way proportionally higher on non-Windows
21:05:26 <Sgeo> Back to reading
21:05:34 <Sgeo> elliott, what are the 4 gigs?
21:05:42 <elliott> Sgeo: I can't tell you, that'd ruin everyone /else's/ guessing
21:05:47 <ais523> part of it is that if you have $n to spend on games, and don't run Windows, you're less likely to have spent it already
21:05:51 <elliott> which I am sure will happen IF I JUST WAIT LONG ENOUGH
21:06:25 <elliott> ais523: well, the average is higher on mac and linux, but not /that/ much so to offset the huge disproportionality of windows users
21:07:21 <ais523> well, gamers fall into quite a few subsets
21:07:38 <ais523> I imagine the sort of people who think Halo is the best game ever wouldn't care for the Humble Bundle at all
21:07:48 <ais523> which is disproportionately heavy on puzzle platformers
21:07:50 <elliott> well, obviously it's an indie market :)
21:07:58 <elliott> but plenty of indie devs think that non-windows doesn't exist
21:08:11 <elliott> the lugaru dev proved that wrong ages ago, but it's good to have even more data to back it up
21:08:14 <ais523> but it turned out to not be too hard to port DNA Maze
21:08:16 <elliott> ais523: well, erm, in a less literal sense :-P
21:08:23 <ais523> elliott: I'd, umm, heard of UNIX
21:08:25 <ais523> but wasn't sure of what it was for
21:08:33 <fizzie> Incidentally, And Yet It Moves flat out refuses to run on my laptop ("no suitable GLX visual available", even though glxinfo lists billions; forums say others have the same issue, no solution yet) and Hammerfight runs somehow really really choppily. (Crayon Physics Deluxe, VVVVVV and Cogs worked just fine though.)
21:08:37 <elliott> ais523: I once went to unix.com and got upset that there wasn't a download link (it was some forum for Unix-alike users)
21:09:00 <ais523> fizzie: Hammerfight didn't become playable until I turned the graphics settings right down and set the mouse DPI to a very low value (because I have a touchpad)
21:09:23 <ais523> first time I've ever seen a GPU crash on my own computer, normally it's my students doing it
21:09:38 <ais523> and then I need a hard reboot before anything but text and framebuffer works
21:09:44 <elliott> ais523: so, ummm, it's a bad sign if I ever think "hey, I wish we had Checkout here", right?
21:09:57 <fizzie> ais523: I tried twiddling the mouse DPI, but it just affected the motion/pixels ratio; the animation stayed choppy. Also the graphics slider did nothing to the menu.
21:10:06 <ais523> the menu's still unplayable
21:10:09 <fizzie> I didn't actually try proceeding from the menu though.
21:10:12 <elliott> ais523: i'm quite worried, personally
21:10:28 <fizzie> I guess I'll try the actual game then.
21:10:31 <ais523> anyway, the annoying thing about the game is that the graphics slider needs to be at about 0.2 or 0.3 for smooth, good-looking play
21:10:34 <elliott> ais523: mostly because I never managed to actually _read_ the Checkout article
21:10:43 <ais523> but it only starts telling you which units are on which teams at 0.5
21:10:46 <ais523> which is kind-of fundamental
21:10:50 <elliott> I hate people who say tl;dr, so pretend I said something analogous here
21:10:54 <ais523> and turns on a lot of pointless embellishments below that
21:11:04 <ais523> why can't I turn on team display without having big flowy banners?
21:11:43 <fizzie> Mhm. The machine in question *should* be able to run a 2D physics game though, weird that it manages to be oh-so-slo.
21:11:55 <ais523> it's pretty graphics-heavy
21:12:03 <ais523> and it's probably trying to software-render everything
21:12:28 <ais523> the graphics don't look 10 to 60 years old, like indie game graphics normally do
21:12:29 <Taneb> Oh dear god I'm bored
21:12:33 <elliott> ais523: OK, rephrase: Is it bad if I think "hey, Checkout would be really useful here", and I'm coding in /Haskell/? In pure code? (i.e. no IO monad, pure denotational compositional goodness)
21:12:36 <ais523> they look more recent than that
21:12:49 <fizzie> But that thing has a Core i7 2720QM something. You can't get very much more on a laptop. (Okey, there's two faster models still.)
21:13:11 <Taneb> AAAH! THEY'VE GIVEN ME MORE GAMES!
21:13:16 <elliott> ais523: wait, sixty years old?
21:13:18 <ais523> Checkout isn't massively imperative, it's sufficiently low-level that it's starting to get functional again
21:13:31 <elliott> that's not even Pong, that's that somethingvac tic-tac-toe
21:14:03 <fizzie> Assembly had the "GameDev" competition videos yesterday, but I don't thing there's much worth highlighting.
21:14:25 <ais523> meanwhile, today I've a) bought a new bed, and b) attempted to, for the tenth time today, get past Viridian City in Pokémon Blue
21:14:26 <elliott> hmm, I don't become a "game dev" :-/
21:14:37 <ais523> I keep accidentally deleting one or the other save file
21:14:37 <fizzie> There was one rather prettier-than-usual cave-flyer game (a traditional Finnish genre).
21:14:45 <elliott> hmm, I hope I don't become a "game dev" :-/
21:14:54 <fizzie> Oh, and an Atari 2600 port of that "Winterbells" flash game.
21:15:02 <fizzie> Points for platform there.
21:15:06 <monqy> becoming "game dev" is my nightmare
21:15:09 <ais523> cave-fliers are Finnish?
21:15:19 <ais523> elliott: just refuse to use C++, that's the simplest way
21:15:23 <elliott> fizzie: "a traditional Finnish genre" -- I'm imagining you have it with your national dish on insert-patriotic-dish-here.
21:15:26 <fizzie> ais523: Many are. V-Wing, Kops, Luola, Wings, ...
21:15:27 <ais523> being a "game dev" complete with quotes requires C++ knowledge
21:15:40 <elliott> ais523: s/C++/suspiciousC++/
21:15:50 <Taneb> I'm increasing the amount I paid
21:15:56 <ais523> oh no, I remember the quote about people being able to write FORTRAN in any language
21:15:58 <elliott> Taneb: what, from one dollar?
21:16:11 <ais523> and am wondering if there are people who can write C++ in any language
21:16:26 <fizzie> I was guessing "to two!"
21:16:42 <ais523> hmm, I've ended up writing a detailed guide to the first battle in Pokémon just because I've had to play it so many times
21:16:49 <oerjan> cave-fliers with mämmi
21:16:58 <elliott> ais523: Well, I'm doing it all in Haskell, with all the graphics code using GPipe (a type-safe thing that uses symbolic values to compile purely-functional Haskell code to super-efficient shaders), with the whole thing tied together with FRP rather than any kind of traditional imperative state-munging code
21:17:05 <elliott> So I think I'm avoiding the whole "game dev" thing pretty well
21:17:12 <elliott> I might also be avoiding the "having an actual working game" thing too, though
21:17:22 <ais523> don't worry, so do most of the
21:17:35 <elliott> ais523: GPipe was, incidentally, where I thought that Checkout would come in handy
21:17:47 <ais523> actually, the hardest part of game development, in terms of dollars spent, is things like art and 3D models
21:17:57 <elliott> ais523: because, why compile pretty, strongly-typed, functional Haskell code into shaders, when you could compile it into Checkout and have it go even faster?
21:18:43 <ais523> elliott: compile it into shaders, or possibly OpenCL; in practice, there's no real way to get Checkout actually onto the chips even though they think like that, and you'd have to abstraction-inverse it into shaders anyway
21:18:50 <elliott> ais523: art and threedee models are easier for me than for most games because it's both a Minecraft-esque game (FSvery looseVO esque), and because I'm doing them procedurally
21:18:54 <zzo38> Did anyone even make the Checkout compiler anyways?
21:18:59 <ais523> and hope that the compiler optimised it back to the original
21:18:59 <elliott> (because I'm not making a few thousand stone textures for all the different kinds of stone you can get)
21:19:11 <elliott> (or a few hundred dirt textures for all the different moisture levels it can be at... per type of dirt)
21:19:15 <zzo38> I would also like to have the Checkout compiler, though.
21:19:26 <elliott> thousands literally, I'm basically bundling a bunch of values into every block
21:19:31 <ais523> elliott: heh, Elliottcraft has procedurally generated palettes for the textures
21:19:38 <ais523> they're pretty much the only bit I've written, apart from the spec
21:19:42 <ais523> elliott: no, I mean my program
21:19:59 <Taneb> losrr is now my state
21:20:13 <elliott> ais523: it also means I can do nice things like have textures that aren't just the one thirty-two by thirty-two bitmap tiled
21:20:22 <Taneb> I meant to say, I'm lost
21:20:24 <elliott> as in, a clump of ore together can look different to just a bunch of ore blocks
21:20:39 <elliott> because textures aren't fixed bitmaps
21:20:46 <elliott> and since textures compile down to shaders, I /think/ this should be fast enough
21:20:53 <zzo38> Are there programs for writing Haskell program without IO monad?
21:20:55 <ais523> I think my game, if I write it, might not be massively fun to play, but it'll make a great esolang
21:21:16 <elliott> zzo38: well, you have to use IO because main has to be of type (IO a) for some a, but yes, you can avoid the imperative model outside of that with FRP libraries
21:21:34 <ais523> because I care more about the esolang aspects than the game aspects
21:22:33 <elliott> ais523: with me, 90 percent of the fun of Elliottcraft is thinking about implementing it
21:22:36 <ais523> but I have so many other things to work on (this Pokémon playthrough, the Secret Project, AceHack, my day job...)
21:22:41 <zzo38> elliott: But can the main function be a C program? And then you can write other part of the program in Haskell?
21:22:55 <elliott> I'm basically planning to carve out hundreds of modules where I make everything JUST AS I LIKE IT
21:22:56 <Taneb> I want to play these games
21:23:00 <ais523> much of the fun of Enigma comes from me as how to express a particular puzzle as an Enigma level
21:23:22 <elliott> ais523: with me, quite a lot of it is about solving the things that aren't directly related to the game idea in The Right Way
21:23:32 <elliott> ais523: mostly fuelled by Minecraft being full of The Wrong Way
21:23:35 <ais523> hmm, with me, it's more the game idea itself
21:23:42 <zzo38> elliott: Then probably you don't have to use IO monad, you can use whatever way you want by writing the C program that way, isn't it?
21:23:56 <elliott> ais523: well, yeah, the other half of the excitement comes from the insane world generation stuff and the like
21:23:57 <ais523> I have basically just three types of cube plus air, although two of the cubes can be static or mobile
21:24:15 <elliott> except infinite world, which basically means it has to generate a huge area in advance
21:24:15 <ais523> but most of them have six possible orientations
21:24:20 <elliott> so that it can generate new areas before you can reach them
21:24:21 <fizzie> (Also this year's "joke game" -- well, one of them -- was a lathe simulator game. You try to get your piece of wood to resemble the given cross-section, and the can buy new chisels, including a light-saber one. And so on.)
21:24:27 <ais523> elliott: at least it isn't Slaves to Armok III
21:24:47 <elliott> ais523: well, it indeed isn't that (good time to reference that, since me and Phantom_Hoover have just started playing DF)
21:24:59 <Taneb> I reckon Slaves too Armok: God of Blood: Part III will be a space-shootemup
21:25:02 <ais523> I don't think anything will be the #esoteric version of that
21:25:12 <ais523> Taneb: the #esoteric version is awesome and impractical
21:25:27 <elliott> except you're a dorf instead of pacman
21:25:29 <ais523> the basic idea is that Slaves to Armok I : Slaves to Armok II :: Slaves to Armok II : Slaves to Armok III
21:25:34 <ais523> (II is, of course, Dwarf Fortress)
21:25:37 <elliott> ais523: precisely; it just goes /backwards/
21:25:43 <ais523> oh, Slaves to Armok 0?
21:25:52 <elliott> well, III, but it's a rebound in terms of complexity
21:25:56 <zzo38> How do you write 0 in roman numbers?
21:26:01 <fizzie> Slaves to Armok 0 is what we're living in.
21:26:07 <ais523> zzo38: you write it out in words, generally, as NIHIL
21:26:12 <elliott> basically III is an incredibly stupidly simple game.
21:26:14 <ais523> although people typically write it as 0 nowadays
21:26:20 <elliott> 22:23 ais523: I have basically just three types of cube plus air, although two of the cubes can be static or mobile
21:26:20 <Taneb> http://www.bay12games.com/armok/
21:26:21 <zzo38> Write how many Bibles you have stolen (use roman numerals)
21:26:28 <elliott> ais523: I, on the other hand, am worried about running out of bytes
21:26:34 <elliott> as in, one byte per block might not be enough
21:26:49 <elliott> umm, what I'm saying is I might have more than two hundred and fifty six block types
21:26:54 <elliott> (Obviously things like moisture level and the like are stored separately)
21:27:04 <zzo38> ais523: Yes I think I have read, CLC-INTERCAL uses NIHIL? But INTERCAL-72 uses just a bar with nothing
21:27:12 <ais523> elliott: I've been trying to work out if I can use Hashlife to implement my language
21:27:20 <ais523> zzo38: that's nonstandard, because it's INTERCAL
21:27:21 <elliott> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb's been hit by melancholy. <Phantom_Hoover> He didn't have any friends, fortunatel.y
21:27:22 <HackEgo> 567) <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb's been hit by melancholy. <Phantom_Hoover> He didn't have any friends, fortunatel.y
21:28:20 <Taneb> Taneb cancels chat: taken by mood.
21:28:26 <Taneb> Taneb is melancholy!
21:28:27 <elliott> ais523: I'd probably end up liking your game more than mine
21:28:28 <Sgeo> CA: A rule transforms an input into an output that itself can be put into the rule
21:28:34 <elliott> ais523: but that's okay, since I'm more interested in making it than playing igt
21:28:40 <elliott> I might even still play MC once it's "done"
21:28:46 <Sgeo> Differentiation: A rule transforms an input into an output that itself can be put into the rule
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21:29:06 <ais523> well, Elliottcraft/CUBE is a bully automaton
21:29:17 <ais523> because I was inspired by RUBE, and trying to make a 3D version
21:29:24 <ais523> and realised that 3D doesn't need nearly the components that 2D does
21:29:31 <elliott> ais523: now that's just confusing; the Cube is the name of a famous (not-yet-)structure in our Minecraft games
21:29:41 <ais523> the capitalisation matters
21:29:44 <elliott> your disambiguation needs disambiguation :D
21:30:02 <ais523> in this Pokémon LAP I'm writing, I'm using Pokémon grammar when I'm writing in-person
21:30:08 <ais523> which is basically, that proper nouns are in allcaps
21:30:15 <ais523> and é is considered capital
21:30:41 <ais523> let's all play, it's a sort of evolution of the let's play concept
21:30:54 <ais523> you get loads of people to let's play the same game simultaneously, each under a different restriction
21:31:07 <ais523> although in this case "the same game" was defined rather loosely as "Pokémon"
21:31:13 <Sgeo> My nook is consistently freezing :(
21:31:22 <ais523> which is a kind-of vague method of naming a game
21:31:26 <elliott> ais523: LNP sounds like more fun
21:31:33 <elliott> you specify one game, and everyone has to play any game but that one
21:31:45 <ais523> that wouldn't be too different from what happens on LP forums anyway
21:32:07 <ais523> anyway, I'm doing a glitchrun
21:32:20 <ais523> and not shying away from doing really tricky glitches that randomly delete the savefile right at the start of the game
21:32:31 <ais523> (right at the start of the game is obviously the best time to do them, in fact)
21:33:06 <ais523> and I'm doing them on a real Game Boy (for reasons you can probably guess), so no savestates
21:33:31 <ais523> oh, and you = elliott there, not = unspecified person
21:34:00 <elliott> (bleh, it's probably a bad sign when you realise that your game is at least as ambitious as Dwarf Fortress, without the single "compromise" that made Dwarf Fortress even possible: not having "real" graphics)
21:34:08 <elliott> ais523: for hardcoreness? accuracy?
21:34:10 <ais523> real graphics can be retrofitted
21:34:20 <elliott> and yes, they can, but it's not always a good idea
21:34:21 <ais523> elliott: no, think about what sort of person I am
21:34:31 <ais523> and in particular, whether I'd know where to get a ROM of Pokémon Blue from
21:34:35 <elliott> OpenGL is a pretty different model to an ncurses program, after all
21:35:02 <ais523> (and nobody tell me, that happened last time I made a comment like that)
21:35:17 <elliott> ais523: now why would you tempt me like that?
21:35:19 <ais523> I actually deleted the link from my logs
21:35:31 <itidus20> elliott: well you would have the insight into which features of dwarf fortress are unnecessary
21:35:36 <ais523> and I can't remember who it was, fortunately for them if anyone ever asks me
21:35:43 <elliott> itidus20: none of them are, it does not go far enough >:D
21:35:50 <elliott> ais523: they have AVOIDED PRISON thanks to your bad memory
21:36:00 <ais523> and thanks to nobody caring
21:36:22 <itidus20> ais523: do you want a ROM of pokemon blue, essee?
21:36:28 <itidus20> i dunno if thats the correct spelling
21:36:34 <elliott> ais523: I'm sure some people care, they're just particularly irritating people
21:36:41 <ais523> format shifting isn't legalised in the UK yet, and even if it were, I'd probably have to dump it myself
21:36:51 <elliott> I'm sure the RIAA would find a reason to care about it, somehow
21:37:02 <ais523> elliott: (that's a serious "yet", there is currently legislation to legalise it going through Government at the moment)
21:37:33 <elliott> ais523: have you seen http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2011/08/the-british-government-has-endorsed.ars?
21:37:46 <ais523> elliott: no, I saw some people on Slashdot mention it
21:37:52 <ais523> but had no reason to doubt them
21:37:52 <elliott> ais523: do you have any explanation????
21:37:55 <elliott> it seems completely out of left field
21:38:07 <ais523> yes, it's political manouevering
21:38:11 <itidus20> ais523: is it best to not comment on a topic like gameboy roms in here?
21:38:27 <ais523> the way the Digital Economy Bill was forced through had nomic-like levels of dubiousness
21:38:28 <itidus20> not that i have anything to say about it
21:38:52 <ais523> and I expect the current government, formed of every major party who didn't vote for that bill, is annoyed at it and wants to tone it down
21:38:55 <elliott> itidus20: nobody gives a shit apart from ais523
21:39:02 <ais523> and so is doing the opposite out of spite
21:39:03 <elliott> so just don't do it too much while ais523 is here or he'll rage/part
21:39:07 <ais523> elliott: it's technically against Freenode rules
21:39:16 <elliott> ais523: so's our channel name :-P
21:39:25 <ais523> and, fwiw, the rules of basically every IRC server and forum in existence
21:39:56 <ais523> every webforum I've seen has an explicit "do not discuss ROMs" rule, unless it's a sufficiently unlikely event for that forum that they didn't point it out explicitly
21:40:38 <elliott> It's okay, I have a perfect shield
21:40:52 <elliott> totalromsforever.invalid/pokemonblue.rom [NO COPYRIGHT INTENDED]
21:41:04 <elliott> (.invalid so that ais523 doesn't panic and erase it from his logs)
21:41:29 <ais523> anyway, I signed the petition against the Digital Economy Act; it got a non-answer from the government, but they probably noticed that it was a) unpopular, and b) possible to overturn without losing any face at all, in fact gaining it
21:41:30 <pikhq> ais523: There is an *obvious* solution to finding a Pokémon Blue ROM.
21:41:36 <Sgeo> Oh, I thought you were making fun of YouTube people who put that in the description of clearly infringing works
21:41:36 <pikhq> http://www.google.com/
21:41:36 <ais523> so they may be overturning it to gain political points
21:41:51 <zzo38> I have played Pokemon Red, but I prefer Pokemon Card
21:41:51 <ais523> in fact, he may have been
21:42:13 <ais523> note that streaming copyrighted information from YouTube doesn't actually violate any laws on the part of the downloader, only the uploader
21:42:56 <Sgeo> ais523, awesome. I feel vindicated
21:43:05 <ais523> hey, we have a matrix of solidity in the topic again!
21:44:14 <elliott> I always thought "downloading is legal" is a persistent myth
21:44:21 <ais523> streaming != downloading
21:44:27 <ais523> because it explicitly doesn't make a copy
21:44:28 <zzo38> elliott: Probably it depends what country?
21:44:28 <elliott> ais523: oh come on, my browser has a cache
21:44:49 <ais523> well, it's YouTube's fault for not turning it off
21:44:55 <ais523> also, I tend to view YouTube random-access
21:45:01 <ais523> as in, I don't watch videos in order
21:45:15 <ais523> and the loading properties imply it isn't being cached properly
21:45:19 <ais523> it sometimes gets confused, in fact
21:45:26 <elliott> ais523: YouTube is just terrible at loading videos for some reason
21:45:32 <elliott> I'm not sure how, it's really spectacularly bad
21:45:43 <elliott> they seemed to update their software at some point and suddenly everything broke
21:45:47 <ais523> elliott: and it's still better than all the other streaming sites on the Internet
21:45:53 <ais523> (DailyMotion is second, btw)
21:45:58 <elliott> well, vimeo is about as good nowadays
21:46:03 <elliott> but then YouTube got terrible
21:46:10 <elliott> (as far as streaming sanity goes)
21:46:48 <ais523> hmm, Google have messed a lot of things up
21:47:12 <ais523> OK, attempt #10 at this glitch
21:47:16 <ais523> let's see how it goes wrong this time
21:48:05 <ais523> "The file data is destroyed!"
21:48:41 <ais523> this is as bad as startscumming NetHack :)
21:49:27 <Taneb> I was never any good at Nethack
21:49:49 <olsner> vimeo makes flash hide the mouse cursor in the whole browser window, youtube doesn't do that
21:50:48 <Vorpal> issue: nwn uses OSS. That means the ALSA OSS emulation. Now: how do I tell it which sound card to use, it ignores ~/.asoundrc
21:51:09 <ais523> Vorpal: heh, you bought Linux NWN?
21:51:18 <Vorpal> ais523, I had it since ages. A gift
21:51:24 <ais523> I only have the one sound card, so it doesn't bother me
21:51:32 <Vorpal> ais523, well I have two, and it is using the wrong one
21:51:44 <Vorpal> in other words, it is using the on-board stuff
21:52:04 <zzo38> I have written a GameBoy game once. But probably the program can still be shortened
21:52:46 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
21:53:05 <Vorpal> ais523, in fact it seems to think I have 3 cards... what
21:53:24 <Vorpal> oh one is hdmi thingy on my video card
21:55:08 <itidus20> on the list of things i'd like to do in life is to write a homebrew gameboy game
21:55:39 <zzo38> itidus20: Yes please learn try it. Do you want color GameBoy or the mono GameBoy?
21:56:12 <itidus20> just incase i do try homebrewing
21:56:34 <itidus20> and of course theres the public domain roms from zephyrs domain
21:56:59 <itidus20> although the sound is kinda scratchy on that emulator
21:58:01 <pikhq> You'd probably be better off with a more accurate emulator. Gambatte is the most accurate GB/GBC emulator that I know of, BTW.
21:58:27 <pikhq> Yes, that is the origin of the name.
21:58:54 <pikhq> Though it'd just be "ganbatte kudasai"; wo isn't used with verbs.
21:59:21 <zzo38> When I wrote a GameBoy game, I had to do some things so that it works on TGB-Dual, VisualBoyAdvance, and GoombaColor.
21:59:48 <Vorpal> ais523, solved by the aoss user-space hack
22:00:11 <ais523> hmm, I'm still not sure how to do sound in the Secret Project
22:00:16 <fizzie> ais523: If you buy Windows NWN, you can download the Linux files and use the CD key, IIRC.
22:00:19 <ais523> pulseaudio doesn't run properly inside it, for whatever reason
22:00:21 <ais523> fizzie: that's what I did
22:00:46 <ais523> and even got the system-independent files by extracting them from the CD with Wine and copying them over (this is explicitly allowed)
22:00:55 <fizzie> The module editor tools they didn't port. :/
22:01:15 <ais523> they run pretty well in Wine, nowadays; the main issue is some sort of slow crash bug, and menu item duplication that seems to be related
22:01:30 <ais523> (as in, menu items are duplicated, and the more you interact with menus, the more likely the crash gets)
22:02:36 <itidus20> zzo38: so what do i expect to bring to homebrew gameboy? for one thing, good controls
22:02:51 <zzo38> itidus20: Actually I just wrote one program
22:02:51 <itidus20> which made me stop and think... does it have floating point?
22:03:01 <zzo38> And I could probably shorten it by at least 100 bytes
22:03:02 <itidus20> im guessing i might have to just simulate fractions instead
22:03:18 <itidus20> if it doesn't have native floating point
22:03:27 <ais523> itidus20: it's an 8-bit system, floating-point would be ridiculously inefficient even if native
22:03:33 <ais523> it doesn't work well at that sort of bitwidth
22:03:38 <ais523> fixedpoint or even BCD is more common
22:03:54 <zzo38> The actual program code is less than 1K but there is a lot more data in the file, which is level data.
22:04:16 <itidus20> i would encode my velocities as real numbers
22:05:46 <itidus20> rather, that you could move in gamespace without necessarily moving 1 whole pixel
22:06:05 <fizzie> Subpixel positions tend to be fixed-point.
22:06:22 <itidus20> ya.. thats what i would end up doing
22:07:03 <itidus20> i forgot that floating point doesn't mean "real numbers"
22:07:04 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:07:08 <fizzie> The subpixel position seems to be quite a common concern for TAS-makers.
22:07:33 <fizzie> Tool-assisted speedrun.
22:07:46 <fizzie> Those beyond-human-limits videos they do.
22:07:57 <itidus20> oh yeah i watch a lot of mario videos
22:08:43 <ais523> itidus20: are you anywhere near as good as andrewg?
22:08:45 <itidus20> since TAS tends to exploit all kinds of cool glitches
22:08:51 <itidus20> i watch the videos i dont make them
22:08:59 <itidus20> i have never even beaten that game ;_;
22:09:29 <itidus20> but yeah.. TAS in super mario means... wild crazy shit...
22:09:57 <itidus20> also.. uh.. super mario kart apparently there has been some new findings .. some new exploit
22:10:09 <itidus20> which makes even faster laps possible
22:10:12 <ais523> itidus20: actually, IIRC andrewg's non-TAS record is now within a couple of seconds of happylee's TAS record
22:10:28 <ais523> and they're both below 5 minutes
22:11:06 <itidus20> i havent watched any side scrollers with TAS though
22:11:16 <itidus20> something like castlevania would be cool as a TAS I suppose
22:11:25 <ais523> you should (if you mean sidescrolling platformers), they're probably the most popular genre to TAS
22:11:30 <ais523> and have most of the bestknown tricks
22:11:38 <ais523> things like zips and corner boosts, etc
22:12:01 <ais523> if you want to see really broken plaforming, try watching a TAS of any early Sonic game
22:12:16 <ais523> (2 and 3-and-Knuckles are both good choices)
22:12:39 <ais523> Mario games are pretty broken too, just not quite as dramatically
22:12:53 <itidus20> sonic is more broken than mario?
22:13:04 <fizzie> That no-star Mario 64 is quite brokeneded.
22:13:32 <ais523> that doesn't count as a sidescroller
22:13:51 <ais523> however, the Sonic runs have comparable levels of brokenness (!)
22:14:29 <itidus20> i have been obsessed with game glitches ever since i read about street fighter 2's glitches in a magazine once
22:15:00 <fizzie> I vaguely recall a Sonic video where Sonic really doesn't get much screen-time, the camera's mostly trying to catch up.
22:15:25 <itidus20> by gllitch i mean... when a glitch is signifigant enough to add a new gameplay mechanic then it becomes very exciting
22:15:53 -!- copumpkin has joined.
22:16:25 <cheater> especially with transporter tubes
22:17:08 <Taneb> I'm going to get some sleep now
22:17:13 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: using sirc version 2.211+ssfe).
22:17:42 <ais523> fizzie: they're mostly like that
22:17:48 <fizzie> There's some sort of "pass through objects that haven't been loaded yet because the camera is lagging too badly behind" stuff going on there.
22:17:53 <ais523> also, with Sonic's engine, if something isn't onscreen, it doesn't exist
22:18:17 <ais523> and the levels wrap both vertically and horizontally, so zipping backwards off the screen makes you win as soon as the camera catches up enough for the level exit to spawn
22:18:26 <ais523> *backwards off the level
22:19:00 -!- Taneb has joined.
22:19:07 <Taneb> Why did my departure get NO'd?
22:19:52 <oerjan> Taneb and his short naps
22:20:18 <Taneb> It's like a lightning strike
22:20:30 <Taneb> There's actually two strikes, a short one and a much longer one
22:20:34 <fizzie> I have a sort of a phobia when it comes to graphical glitches in 3D games though. They always make me worry this side of the screen might start bugging out too.
22:20:42 <Taneb> Of course, I cannot verify that factoid
22:20:44 <oerjan> reminds me of this story i've been told about how Fridtjof Nansen took his afternoon nap
22:21:20 <itidus20> fizzie: i dont play much 3d games so i havent experienced that. but. i think you will find its a very natural phobia to feel. because
22:21:27 <oerjan> he sat down in his armchair with his keychain in one hand
22:21:37 <itidus20> a glitch in 3d conditions you to expect a certain thing to happen in 3d...
22:21:39 <oerjan> when the chain hit the floor, his nap was over
22:21:57 <itidus20> now when you encounter the 3d world on this side there is probably some residue of that conditioning of expecting glitches
22:22:23 <Taneb> I sorta expect glitches and loss of player data in the real world
22:22:40 <itidus20> is this actually happening to people who play 3d games?
22:23:01 <Taneb> I just read too many webcomics
22:23:09 <Taneb> And get paranoid easily
22:23:16 <itidus20> no thats just concious rationalizations
22:23:41 <Taneb> No, this is to do with webcomics
22:23:45 <Taneb> Specifficaly Misfile
22:24:17 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
22:24:30 <Taneb> Nothing of the sort has happened yet...
22:24:56 <ais523> OK, let's see if attempt 11 worked
22:25:03 <itidus20> player data presupposes a player data storage
22:25:19 <ais523> hmm, either it did, or I was too early
22:25:33 <ais523> I'm guessing the latter
22:25:43 <Taneb> Any, goodnight for reals
22:25:57 <ais523> I hate having to hit subframe-perfect timings without even knowing what the timing is or having a countdown to help
22:26:09 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: using sirc version 2.211+ssfe).
22:26:55 -!- Cheery has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
22:27:13 <itidus20> the thing is that subpixel position is very important in creating fluid controls
22:27:28 <ais523> itidus20: have you seen SML2 (for the Game Boy)
22:27:34 <ais523> its controls are fluid, but it doesn't have subpixels, at all
22:27:44 <ais523> what it has instead, well, it's exploitable in a really crazy way which spams sound effects
22:28:34 <ais523> go check out tasvideos.org, it's full of this sort of thing
22:30:13 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
22:30:37 <itidus20> ok i suppose i should take it that i am wrong then about the control thing
22:30:42 <itidus20> it was an assumption after all
22:32:24 <ais523> bleh, it was too early
22:34:35 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
22:34:39 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord
22:35:08 <oerjan> what happened to my program :(
22:35:45 <fungot> >+9[<+8>-]<.>+7[<+4>-]<+.+7..+3.>>>+8[<+4>-]<.>>>+10[<+9>-]<-3.<4.+3.-6.-8.>>+.
22:38:27 <oerjan> i do have it in a file, anyway
22:39:17 <fizzie> Well, if you want something permanent to fungot, let me know. I didn't remember to ^save before restarting it when enabling ^style homestuck.
22:39:18 <fungot> fizzie: a well mannered query to ask what your names are. you're going.
22:39:37 <oerjan> nah this was only a fragment
22:40:30 <ais523> it'll be in the logs anyway
22:40:35 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:45:45 <fizzie> I had a gameboy (the classic one) and SML2 for it once. Haven't seen it in years. I suppose the SRAM-backed savefiles could still be intact?
22:46:34 <ais523> fizzie: they were on mine, when I found it
22:46:44 <ais523> old gameboy games often but not always have intact savefiles
22:47:00 <ais523> out of the ones my family own, all the ones we tested did but Pokémon Silver
22:47:22 <fizzie> I think I have a six-coins 99-lives save there.
22:47:24 <ais523> which was unable to maintain a save while not turned on, for more than a few minutes (the length seemed to go up over time, must be some sort of wonky battery)
22:47:33 <ais523> fizzie: and 999 regular coins?
22:47:37 <ais523> it's not too hard in that game, admittedly
22:48:17 <fizzie> I think the lives mostly came out of some sort of random-lottery thing I recall it having.
22:48:27 <fizzie> Maybe payable with regular coins?
22:49:32 <ais523> that was the fastest way to farm lives
22:49:40 <ais523> and the only use of regular coins, too
22:56:45 <Sgeo> quintopia, thank you
23:11:19 <oerjan> ^def test bf ,[>+[-[---->+++++<]>[-<+>]<<[->[----->++++<]>[-<+>]<+<[->+<[->+<[>[->+<]>++<<-[->+<]]]]]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<]<.,]
23:12:01 <oerjan> much shorter than the previous one
23:12:17 <Lymee> What does ^test do?
23:13:25 <oerjan> it applies if (n%4 == 0) { n = 5*(n/4); } to each input character
23:14:16 <Lymee> ^test Um what exactly is this supposed to do that's not-totally-useless
23:14:21 <fungot> Um(wa(eacy(is(is( ...out of time!
23:14:43 <oerjan> it's supposed to apply a fractran rule
23:15:06 -!- Anvilgames has joined.
23:15:32 <Anvilgames> ... wow, I wasn't expecting that to work.
23:15:57 <ais523> saying hi is one of the few things that often does get responses
23:16:03 <Anvilgames> I thought I'd have to authentificate my password or something first though
23:16:14 <ais523> I suppose, in that sense, it's technically trolling, in that it's done just to bait a reaction
23:16:15 <Anvilgames> ... this is a Freenode channel, right?
23:16:27 <ais523> you can use it unregistered (some you can't, most you can)
23:16:34 <ais523> registration just prevents people stealing your nick
23:16:46 <oerjan> heh this program could be described with bfjoust notation
23:16:51 <ais523> how useful that is depends on how likely you think it is that people would try to steal your nick
23:17:02 <ais523> Anvilgames: Fractran in unbounded-integer-bounded-tape BF
23:18:07 <ais523> let's see... http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fractran http://esolangs.org/wiki/brainfuck should explain the proper nouns
23:18:13 <ais523> and might explain the rest of the sentence too
23:18:54 <Anvilgames> I have a passing familiarity with unbounded integers
23:19:14 <oerjan> Anvilgames: i think there is a channel setting which makes only registered nicks able to speak, but we're a pretty lenient channel, and too small to need such things
23:19:19 <Anvilgames> from wasting my youth by actually going to lectures
23:19:22 <ais523> now I'm trying to figure out if "brainfuck" is a proper noun, given that it doesn't start with a capital letter; I guess it is
23:19:38 <ais523> oerjan: it's mostly used as a response to spambot attacks
23:19:47 <ais523> and we don't get many spambots on the IRC channel (as opposed to the wiki)
23:20:13 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: well, they aren't a natural programming concept if you're only used to imperative/machinecodish langs
23:20:34 <ais523> even if, in a way, they're simpler than bounded integers
23:20:36 <Anvilgames> For some reason I am supremely smug about using the word "integer" instead of "natural number"
23:20:52 <Anvilgames> wait, I think I should lose my math license for that sentence
23:20:52 <ais523> they have different meanings
23:21:14 <ais523> and "natural number" is often avoided because it's ambiguous as to whether it includes 0 (people are inconsistent about that)
23:21:27 <Anvilgames> Second year of my maths degree and I get my integers and natural numbers mixed up :(
23:21:44 <Anvilgames> should just say "nonnegative integer" anyway
23:22:27 <ais523> btw, anyone here know how to type ¿ on Gnome 2/X11/Linux (not sure which is relevant here)?
23:22:32 <ais523> the one in the above line is copy-pasted
23:23:12 <oerjan> incidentally my fractran encoding only uses natural numbers, anyway
23:23:35 <ais523> integers unbounded both ways in BF are annoying, as there's no way, in general, to tell if they're positive or negative
23:23:42 <ais523> BF Joust is rather based on that principle, in fact
23:24:50 <oerjan> hm do you need parentheses in bfjoust around a single command again?
23:25:10 <ais523> only if you're repeating it
23:25:19 <oerjan> er that's what i meant
23:26:11 -!- iconmaster has joined.
23:28:15 <ais523> there's no compose button configured
23:28:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Anvilgames, my feelings are split on quantum brainfuck.
23:28:59 <oerjan> ,[>+[-[(-)*4>(+)*5<]>[-<+>]<<[->[(-)*5>(+)*4<]>[-<+>]<+<([->+<{[>[->+<]>++<<-[->+<]]}])%2>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<]<.,]
23:29:05 * Anvilgames busts out the quantum graphics card to try it out
23:29:16 <Phantom_Hoover> On the one hand... it's a brainfuck derivative. On the other, it's a a fairly innovative and well-intentioned one.
23:29:22 <Anvilgames> don't have a QCPU on me at the moment¨
23:29:48 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:29:51 <zzo38> Then you need a emulation, maybe it will use up too much time and memory
23:30:23 <Anvilgames> unfortunately, my computer is a deterministic Turing Machine
23:31:00 <Anvilgames> no quantum computing, no infinite processing speed, no time travel...
23:43:24 -!- cheater has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
23:49:18 <Lymee> Anvilgames, I've heard that time travel's cheep these days...
23:49:41 <Lymee> ...crippleware versions without "go backwards" options...
23:49:59 <Anvilgames> I got a 30 day trial of my time machine
23:50:25 -!- pumpkin has joined.
23:51:16 <nooga> Hugs is a pitty haskell environment
23:51:46 <nooga> oerjan: still here?
23:52:20 <nooga> I've got quite a big problem
23:53:19 <nooga> I need a name for my own business, firm
23:53:34 <Anvilgames> I am so out of my depth it's not even funny
23:53:56 -!- Lymee has set topic: Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity | wget redpill | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
23:54:19 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:54:49 <nooga> I thought about mørp, because google doesn't know it
23:54:52 -!- zzo38 has set topic: Don't enjoy unlocking the matrix of liquidity | wget -o 42 -KaRmgH redpill | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
23:56:06 <HackEgo> 333) <Phantom_Hoover> Oh god. <Phantom_Hoover> I've become a metallurgy hipster. <Phantom_Hoover> Iridium is way too mainstream.
23:56:22 <zzo38> Thozhu, Uno, Rrzly???
23:56:26 <Phantom_Hoover> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> Oh god. <Phantom_Hoover> I've become a metallurgy hipster.
23:56:27 <HackEgo> 567) <Phantom_Hoover> Oh god. <Phantom_Hoover> I've become a metallurgy hipster.
23:56:29 -!- cheater has joined.
23:57:31 <nooga> so I need weird letters
23:58:09 -!- ais523 has left ("<fungot> fizzie: it makes demons fly out of my window, washing the windows api").
23:58:16 <oerjan> nooga: similar trademarks can be violations
23:58:57 <nooga> I often say morp or sznyf or baerk or lyk
23:59:22 <zzo38> Please use only control characters in the name of your business in order to confuse you.
23:59:26 <nooga> I've got this contract for 60k euros
23:59:45 <nooga> and I NEED to name my oddamn company